# After Christ returns



## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks @A Watchman, great idea.

This was posted on another thread. The thread went downhill quickly. I think (hope actually) that this can be discussed without slamming or denigrating others.



> Revelation 19:6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. 8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear."
> 
> One religion is how I read that. I could be wrong but that's my interpretation.


I am interested in learning what others think about this. I have recently learned the Mormon's idea of what will happen. What do you think?


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm a believer in God, but not an interpreter of the words written in the Bible. That I have kind of given up on and my thought was just to live a life that would make anyone including God happy by doing what is right. That said I can't offer an interpretation of this 19.6-8 but I would like to know what wedding of the Lamb means? I certainly mean no disrespect.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Thanks @A Watchman, great idea.
> 
> This was posted on another thread. The thread went downhill quickly. I think (hope actually) that this can be discussed without slamming or denigrating others.
> 
> I am interested in learning what others think about this. I have recently learned the Mormon's idea of what will happen. What do you think?


Go back to chapter eighteen and read through twenty.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Denton said:


> Go back to chapter eighteen and read through twenty.


I did yesterday but re-read it today. I stand by my interpretation.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

inceptor said:


> I did yesterday but re-read it today. I stand by my interpretation.


I'm sorry, what is your interpretation? My brain is moving slowly, today. Storms rolling through and giving me a sinus headache.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

stowlin said:


> I'm a believer in God, but not an interpreter of the words written in the Bible. That I have kind of given up on and my thought was just to live a life that would make anyone including God happy by doing what is right. That said I can't offer an interpretation of this 19.6-8 but I would like to know what wedding of the Lamb means? I certainly mean no disrespect.


In a number of places in the NT, there are references to the Bride and Bridegroom. All seem to me (IMHO) to be Christ calling the church to Him. For example He gives a parable in Matthew 25 (NIV)

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

_25 "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7 "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9 "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10 "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 "Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!'

12 "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'

13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour._


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Denton said:


> I'm sorry, what is your interpretation? My brain is moving slowly, today. Storms rolling through and giving me a sinus headache.


That when Christ returns, there will only be one church.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

inceptor said:


> That when Christ returns, there will only be one church.


Ok; I'm tracking, now. 
Of course, there is only one church, and it is considered comprised of those who accepted Jesus as their savior. That was made clear when Jesus said that the only way to the Father is through the Son.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

inceptor said:


> That when Christ returns, there will only be one church.


Now, fast forward to the end of the thousand year reign.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

stowlin said:


> I'm a believer in God, but not an interpreter of the words written in the Bible. That I have kind of given up on and my thought was just to live a life that would make anyone including God happy by doing what is right. That said I can't offer an interpretation of this 19.6-8 but I would like to know what wedding of the Lamb means? I certainly mean no disrespect.


Hey Stowlin,

The term lamb references Jesus Christ himself, as the sacrificial lamb for the sins and sinful nature of man. The wedding references Christ returning to claim his bride, also known as the church.

I am glad to hear hat you strive to please God, however a faithful walk should not be offered in the absence of faith and acceptance of the gift of eternal life offered by the blood of Christ on the cross. One must simply believe and accept the free gift, an offering of good deeds or work is not what Christ demands. See below:

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8*For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9*Not of works, lest any man should boast


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Dang yall are venturing off into some deep theological waters around here. As to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb..it is generally thought to happen as an awards ceremony in Paradise. You get to watch a Vulcan Mind Meld type movie which shows alll the rotten stuff we done..then we get some awards..or crowns depending on what kinda faithful Servant to the Lord a person has been. So the big shot do gooders get to be ranked higher and get the nice mansions on the golf course...while some of our weaker brothers might be fortunate to get and old log cabin in the far corner of glory land. It will be a lot of fun and last 7 years. In the meantime on Earth the godless sinners who missed the Rapture are not having a pleasant time of it. A cabin is better.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

A Watchman said:


> Hey Stowlin,
> 
> The term lamb references Jesus Christ himself, as the sacrificial lamb for the sins and sinful nature of man. The wedding references Christ returning to claim his bride, also known as the church.
> 
> ...





inceptor said:


> Thanks @A Watchman, great idea.
> 
> This was posted on another thread. The thread went downhill quickly. I think (hope actually) that this can be discussed without slamming or denigrating others.
> 
> I am interested in learning what others think about this. I have recently learned the Mormon's idea of what will happen. What do you think?


I believe the Bride Of Christ as his church, is compromised of the true believers who have accepted the free gift of eternal life. I do not believe it refers to any one or even a few of the noted religious sects that man has named.


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## NKAWTG (Feb 14, 2017)

stowlin said:


> I'm a believer in God, but not an interpreter of the words written in the Bible. That I have kind of given up on and my thought was just to live a life that would make anyone including God happy by doing what is right. That said I can't offer an interpretation of this 19.6-8 but I would like to know what wedding of the Lamb means? I certainly mean no disrespect.


I'm pretty sure Jesus is the Lamb, and the Church is the Bride.
In the beginning of Christianity, there was but one Church, one denomination.
Over the course of two thousand years the Church has split into many denominations.
So does this mean "One Religion" or "One Church".
I believe it is a reference to one church, I doubt islam, budism, hinduism, and such will convert.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Hey Watchman can some of these guys actually be a member of the Bride of Christ?

Pesky Pentecostals? Yep.
Conniving Catholics? Yep.
Boisterous Baptists? Yep.
Marrying Mormons? Yep.
Mumbling Methodists? Yep.

Well, ain't God good? Yep.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

The Church will be his Church not mans churches.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Say what Watchman? Who gets to live an eternal life in the presence of Jesus?

Anyone who calls out the name of Jesus and truly believes. Anyone.

Romans 10
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God concerning them[a] is for their salvation! 2*I can testify about them that they have zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3*Because they disregarded the righteousness from God and attempted to establish their own righteousness, they have not submitted themselves to God's righteousness. 4*For Christ is the end* of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5*For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: The one who does these things will live by them.[c] 6*But the righteousness that comes from faith speaks like this: Do not say in your heart, "Who will go up to heaven?"[d] that is, to bring Christ down 7*or, "Who will go down into the abyss?"[e] that is, to bring Christ up from the dead. 8*On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.[f] This is the message of faith that we proclaim: 9*If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10*One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. 11*Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame,[g] 12*for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him. 13*For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.[*


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

A Watchman said:


> Hey Watchman can some of these guys actually be a member of the Bride of Christ?
> 
> Pesky Pentecostals? Yep.
> Conniving Catholics? Yep.
> ...


Amen! Preach on Brother! Do believe a certain percentage of pew warmers in various Christian denominations will surely be saved regardless of whatever kinky doctrinal axes they might wish to grind. What percentage only God knows and which ones is which I sure aint sure..lol. I do believe in order to get saved takes two body parts which is the heart (mind) and mouth. That plus or minus nothing else gets a person on the far side of the Pearly Gates. 
Romans 10:9
For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved:


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Thanks @A Watchman, great idea.
> 
> This was posted on another thread. The thread went downhill quickly. I think (hope actually) that this can be discussed without slamming or denigrating others.I am interested in learning what others think about this. I have recently learned the Mormon's idea of what will happen. What do you think?


I go on just a little further to get the meaning of the 3 verses you mentioned:

_*Revelation 19:9 (KJV) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.*_

There is a Groom (Jesus Christ), . . . and there is a Bride (His church), . . . both metaphors that are used to describe the full relationship of Christ and His church, . . . which goes all the way back to Genesis, where God said that it is not good for man to be alone, and therefore He created woman to be man's help mete.

Jesus (metaphorically as a man) needs a metaphorical help mete, . . . who is embodied in the the body of the church.

That church will be a combination of the old testament saints who accepted Jesus' teachings while he was in the heart of the earth for three days, . . . preaching in paradise with the thief on the cross, . . . and all the new testament saints who have been born again.

WE, . . . the body of Christ (another metaphor), . . . and the Bride of Christ, . . . will be metaphorically wedded to Him just prior to the marriage supper of the Lamb. Many argue that the dinner is also a metaphor, . . . I disagree, . . . and am looking forward to it, . . . wondering which two saints I get to sit beside.

And quite honestly, . . . I could not care less if I don't understand any of that correctly. To be in heaven with Jesus, . . . with or without the wedding, . . . with or without the dinner, . . . will still be plenty enough for me.

Just so I don't have to put up with the rich man for an eternity.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Ain't nothing like a little Sunday evening church, huh? :vs_clap:


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## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

A Watchman said:


> Ain't nothing like a little Sunday evening church, huh? :vs_clap:


I love it. We need more of it.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

It seems only fitting. I was going to go to church this morning but the scheme fell through. So church on here should work and not take getting dressed up..no money in the kitty etc. I like it.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

The church is made up of the body of believers. there will be catholics, baptist, mormons, etc.... however what they all share will be that they surrendered to Jesus as the Christ

now to be honest.. there are some groups that teach a different Jesus and if you are following a different jesus you have no jesus!!!!!! as a general rule/observation mormons do not have the same jesus as my Jesus. neither do the JW's. Jews reject him as the messiah, although many will come to him in the end days!

the problem is that people try to make THEIR jesus like themselves ...a TRUE (yep I said it) Christian will try to make themselves like Jesus... 

denominations.... as long as they keep the main thing the main thing... who cares if one plays guitars and another sings only with ni instruments - one only uses the KJV Bible or one only meets on saturdays or another speaks in tongues..... JESUS is what holds them all together as a body/Church

you will not be damned for speaking or not speaking in tongues... you will be damned for rejecting Jesus as the ONLY WAY, TRUTH.....

in heaven there is only ONE church... on earth there will only be one unified church AFTER the 1,000 year reign


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Well you have opened up a fine can of worms on this deal. Catholics think the Church is the Roman Catholic Church. They aint rational. Hope they dont show up to nag. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_invisible


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> The church is made up of the body of believers. there will be catholics, baptist, mormons, etc.... however what they all share will be that they surrendered to Jesus as the Christ
> 
> now to be honest.. there are some groups that teach a different Jesus and if you are following a different jesus you have no jesus!!!!!! as a general rule/observation mormons do not have the same jesus as my Jesus. neither do the JW's. Jews reject him as the messiah, although many will come to him in the end days!
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> The church is made up of the body of believers. there will be catholics, baptist, mormons, etc.... however what they all share will be that they surrendered to Jesus as the Christ
> 
> the problem is that people try to make THEIR jesus like themselves ...a TRUE (yep I said it) Christian will try to make themselves like Jesus...
> 
> denominations.... as long as they keep the main thing the main thing... who cares if one plays guitars and another sings only with ni instruments - one only uses the KJV Bible or one only meets on saturdays or another speaks in tongues..... JESUS is what holds them all together as a body/Church


This is exactly what we were talking about in church this morning, based on Colossians 2. We just have to remember that Jesus is our common ground.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

I have found in talking to other people, . . . I'm generally too loosely bound to be a part of their denomination. 

Their little picky, picky, picky rules give me heartburn, . . . because I see Jesus ministering to people in all walks of life, . . . all different ethnic groups, . . . social groups, . . . pecking orders, . . . positions, . . . occupations, . . . etc.

I don't recall a dress code to attend the "sermon on the mount", . . . nor a seating code to be fed in the 4000, . . . He didn't ask the blind if they had been married before and were now divorced, . . . He did not ask the thief on the cross if he was old order Jew, new hope baptist, or no hope baptist, . . . 

No, . . . He just ministered to them in their need. 

His only admonition was "go and sin no more". This is the one point, . . . if any, . . . that I am prone as a minister to "hammer on" to all my folks to whom I minister, . . . because I truly believe and teach that this every bit as important in salvation as getting saved in the first place. 

AND, . . . I fully support an old Baptist minister's statement that basically said that there will be many up there we will be surprised to see, . . . some surprised that we do not see, . . . and I'll add that there will probably be some surprised to see us saunter in. AND, . . . that's OK too.

I particularly love the stories of the centurion of Capernaum, blind Bartimaeus, the Gadarene demoniac, and Pilate (I find no fault in this man). They show the wide range He ministered to, . . . as well as the depth of sin which He could and would forgive.

The big mystery to me (what was her first name???), Mrs. Noah, . . . and I will personally give her a big neck hug and say thank you, . . . for she stood by her husband when everyone else apparently laughed and scorned him, . . . and perhaps even his father Lamech (died 5 years before the flood), . . .and Methuslah, his grandfather (who died either in the flood, or in the year of the flood), . . . just perhaps even they scorned, mocked, and jeered as Noah built his ark. SHE stood by him through it all.

But, . . . looking forward to heaven, . . . I'm planning on it being one fun filled eternity.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

dwight55 said:


> Their little picky, picky, picky rules give me heartburn, . . . because I see Jesus ministering to people in all walks of life, . . . all different ethnic groups, . . . social groups, . . . pecking orders, . . . positions, . . . occupations, . . . etc.


Exactly. And, like Jesus, we're called to love everyone. That part gets hard, we don't have his perfection, but it ties for the #1 commandment, so that's where we're supposed to focus our efforts.

I guess I should be grateful I have a particularly difficult neighbor to love, so I can practice it literally. :vs_laugh: lain:


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## Vasily 1945 (Jun 25, 2017)

Great scripture, as with all of Revelation it is symbolic,
Obviously the good has conquered and eliminated the evil threat that Satan has posed.
The voice of God was likened as the sound of many waters, throughout the bible, Hallelujah means Praise Yahweh or (Jehovah), the great "I am"
Christ as the Lamb of God has drawn to himself the "pure in heart" the true Christians, hence the white linen. This does not mean a certain religion. God knows the heart of each man.


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

My problem with the church started when I learned the Bible was put together by council that picked and chose what was "inspired" by GOD.. (and also conveniently propagated their power), tossing out opposing writings... in school I was taught WHAT to believe and not WHY to believe it...


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Vasily 1945 said:


> Great scripture, as with all of Revelation it is symbolic,
> Obviously the good has conquered and eliminated the evil threat that Satan has posed.
> The voice of God was likened as the sound of many waters, throughout the bible, Hallelujah means Praise Yahweh or (Jehovah), the great "I am"
> Christ as the Lamb of God has drawn to himself the "pure in heart" the true Christians, hence the white linen. This does not mean a certain religion. God knows the heart of each man.


Well I am following along sorta. What are we alleging is symbolic? Satan isn't a threat. He dont function without God giving the Ok. The good vs evil duality battling it out in the sky is a part of Hinduism and Free Masonry maybe..not Christianity. Other than that it sounds sorta rational.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> Well I am following along sorta. What are we alleging is symbolic? Satan isn't a threat. He dont function without God giving the Ok. The good vs evil duality battling it out in the sky is a part of Hinduism and Free Masonry maybe..not Christianity. Other than that it sounds sorta rational.


Actually, bigwheel, . . . it's one of those things where we have control (as free moral agents, . . . free will, . . . freedom of choice, . . . you know, all that), . . . but our free will and free moral agency can be over-ruled / trumped / shut down my the hand of almighty God.

I truly believe that a person can do just about anything that person wants to do, . . . and if he is following Satan, . . . I believe the majority of the decision is made by him, . . . God will only interfere on behalf of two things: 1) the prayers of someone who loves this stupid devil following dork, . . . or 2) the actions and outcome being contrary to other things God has in His will and His plan.

A for instance: if I decided to off the pope, . . . take my .22 derringer, . . . get up close and pop him right in the noggin, . . . God would look into His scheme of things coming up and if the old pope was not a figure and was not needed, . . . and had been given ample opportunity to repent of anything he needed to repent of, . . . I can see where I would be allowed to go on my own, . . . and if I was Slick Willy enough, . . . the deed would be done.

BUT OTOH, . . . if somehow the pope figured into something right real important, . . . God would find a way to block me, . . . including even make my weapon malfunction, . . . my train late to the station, . . . take me out ahead of time, . . . whatever fulfilled His greater need.

I agree with you that Satan cannot do anything God has not approved or at least allowed, . . . but God's allowance sometimes goes beyond where I would have gone, . . . given my finite human understanding of the situation.

A special example: the ISIS idiot in Canada, . . . made a millionaire by Canada after killing / wounding US troops. Personally, . . . were I God, . . . me and Gabriel would have a talk, . . . and later on there would be an ISIS and a Canadian funeral, . . . why God allowed that I will never know, . . . but then again, I'm not God.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> My problem with the church started when I learned the Bible was put together by council that picked and chose what was "inspired" by GOD.. (and also conveniently propagated their power), tossing out opposing writings... in school I was taught WHAT to believe and not WHY to believe it...


But those books are still available. They are called The Apocrypha. You haven't been banned from reading them.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

indie said:


> Exactly. And, like Jesus, we're called to love everyone. That part gets hard, we don't have his perfection, but it ties for the #1 commandment, so that's where we're supposed to focus our efforts.
> 
> I guess I should be grateful I have a particularly difficult neighbor to love, so I can practice it literally. :vs_laugh: lain:


_Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets._

But there are those that believe either Jesus was kidding when he said the second part or that it applies to everyone else but them.

ETA: There is a third option: Neighbor being those you agree with.


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## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

inceptor said:


> _Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets._
> 
> But there are those that believe either Jesus was kidding when he said the second part or that it applies to everyone else but them.
> 
> ETA: There is a third option: Neighbor being those you agree with.


Seems pretty clear cut to me. He loved everyone, even those who sinned against him. So should we. The harder it is, the more it is worth it.

We went through a year of harassment from our neighbor. I spent nights in bed shaking and crying, waiting for him to come after us. I don't walk outside unarmed. It wasn't until we went to court that I finally got angry. Deep, blood burning fury.

In the end, when I felt healing and on the road to normalcy was when the kids and I shoveled some of our gravel into the potholes in his driveway.

Loving your neighbor, literally or figuratively, has little to do with your neighbor's peace of mind. It isn't about that at all.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> My problem with the church started when I learned the Bible was put together by council that picked and chose what was "inspired" by GOD.. (and also conveniently propagated their power), tossing out opposing writings... in school I was taught WHAT to believe and not WHY to believe it...


It never ceases to blow my mind that smart folks often believe in a God powerful enough to raise their rotten carcasses up out of the grave but consider Him to otherwise be such a puss cake to be incapable of getting an accurate Owners Manuel into our hands. That sounds sorta nutty to me..lol. If a person cant trust the Bible enough to follow the directions therein..they sure cant have any faith..which is what it takes to get saved..cause Faith comes by Hearing the Word of God. It dont take much Faith only enough about the size of mustard seed. I trust the Holy Ghost to make the holy men of God get it right. Do read the Apocraphal Books. They are very interesting. They are in all Catholic Bibles and easy to pull up on Google. Some folks think the Epistle of Barnabas should have been included in the Canon. 
2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy Ghost.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> My problem with the church started when I learned the Bible was put together by council that picked and chose what was "inspired" by GOD.. (and also conveniently propagated their power), tossing out opposing writings... in school I was taught WHAT to believe and not WHY to believe it...


the council did not pick the winners... the based choices off of what was in common use... also.... if one book said x and 66 others said y.... x did not make it....

if all writings were included then the bible would not have been the word of God... if the bible is not the word of god we need to toss it all out and then everybody can just make up their own god

My God is BIG enough to make sure his word was preserved....


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## Vasily 1945 (Jun 25, 2017)

bigwheel said:


> Well I am following along sorta. What are we alleging is symbolic? Satan isn't a threat. He dont function without God giving the Ok. The good vs evil duality battling it out in the sky is a part of Hinduism and Free Masonry maybe..not Christianity. Other than that it sounds sorta rational.


THe battle in the sky is in Rev chapter 12 and pretty clear, Michael the arcangle vs satan, whether this is in the past or in the future is not clear, remember Satan had access to heaven as in the case of Job, when God allowed Satan to tempt him.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Vasily 1945 said:


> THe battle in the sky is in Rev chapter 12 and pretty clear, Michael the arcangle vs satan, whether this is in the past or in the future is not clear, remember Satan had access to heaven as in the case of Job, when God allowed Satan to tempt him.


Satan still has access to heaven


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> Satan still has access to heaven


And is still accusing us.


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

I am just saying that picking and choosing which were divinely inspired, in the 1500 years after the fact opens it up to a bit of questioning.. the differences in the 4 gospels alone (written at different times) is proof enough that EVERYTHING is open to a loose interpretation... and thus it must all be taken in faith.....


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> I am just saying that picking and choosing which were divinely inspired, in the 1500 years after the fact opens it up to a bit of questioning.. the differences in the 4 gospels alone (written at different times) is proof enough that EVERYTHING is open to a loose interpretation... and thus it must all be taken in faith.....


ok, then you can read all the books that were written and make your own judgement as to what books best to use

it is not about faith, it is about God (The Holy Spirit Leading you)

I have no clue what you mean by "the differences in the 4 gospels alone "

if they were exactly the same, people would whine that they were copied

what I have found in my short 54 years here on earth.. people that want to do their own thing...find a ton of reasons to disbelieve....
-the bible was written by man
-science proves it wrong
-there are differences
-blah blah blah

I believe in God because of fulfilled prophecy and witnessing his grace.... The Jews back in Israel and things coming about that were mentioned years and years ago, Jesus fulfilled so many prophecies that there is no way chance could account for it. Abiogeneis (first life) demands a creator

I have faith but not blind faith.. my faith is built on many many things


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> I believe in God because of fulfilled prophecy and witnessing his grace.... The Jews back in Israel and things coming about that were mentioned years and years ago, Jesus fulfilled so many prophecies that there is no way chance could account for it. Abiogeneis (first life) demands a creator
> 
> I have faith but not blind faith.. my faith is built on many many things


This ^^^^ thank you MM.

I know that my God is real.
I know that the Holy Spirit leads me. 
I know when I am being convicted. 
I know his voice.
I have seen many things too many times, that chance cannot match.

Just look around you, really? You believe the intricacies of this world is by other than a masterful divine creation?
There is no reasonable answer to the good and bad in this world, other than a just God and man that has been lead astray by temptation. Thank God for his grace and a remedy offered to All.


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

meant faith was required to believe that fallible man, and an often corrupt church could correctly choose what is divinely inspired and what isn't... not here to debate the existence of god...


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

as I stated in my first post.. my problem is with the church... not God...


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> as I stated in my first post.. my problem is with the church... not God...


I think you could more accurately define your angst as being with false doctrine. I agree.


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## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

I just think it's incredible to think about the efforts of ancient scribes, painstakingly copying these massive books, often while hiding out from persecution in their determination to get the Word out.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> Satan still has access to heaven


St. Michael the Archangel kicked satan's sorry butt out of heaven. Jesus said, "I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven", and in the book of the Revelation satan is seen as "a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth". 
God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and all Knowing, so He even knows what all goes on in hell. satan knows He knows, satan can still grumble and mutter at God, all the while thinking, 'is He really there? what is He like? When satan was a beautiful angel, he knew God better than anyone, but still only in part. Then satan chose not to serve. And now satan can't bare to see His face. satan doesn't want to see Him. Nothing sinful can see God. Nothing sinful wants to see God or the things of heaven.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Annie said:


> St. Michael the Archangel kicked satan's sorry butt out of heaven.


 I think you are confusion future events with past events



Annie said:


> God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and all Knowing, so He even knows what all goes on in hell.


 satan has not benn cast into hell yet.. when he is, he will not be ruling hell.. he will be there as punishment..as one of the damned



Annie said:


> satan doesn't want to see Him. Nothing sinful can see God. Nothing sinful wants to see God or the things of heaven.


how does satan accuse us if he can not be in heaven... and where do you get the idea that nothing sinful can see God.. if that was the case.. sinner could never see God to be able to accept Him!!!!!
I think you might be thinking about GOD WILL NOT LOOK ON SIN...


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> as I stated in my first post.. my problem is with the church... not God...


if your problem is with the church your problem is with God's people... of course that is just another excuse, there is no perfect church body

walmart has the same problems, people that show up but do not want to work, hypocrites, lazy, ect...

in the end , if you allow WHAT OTHERS do or say determine how you follow Jesus... you are defeated


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> I think you are confusion future events with past events
> 
> satan has not benn cast into hell yet.. when he is, he will not be ruling hell.. he will be there as punishment..as one of the damned
> 
> ...


Remember Moses? When he just wanted to see the shadow of God's back side?


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

Maine-Marine said:


> in the end , if you allow WHAT OTHERS do or say determine how you follow Jesus... you are defeated


like the OTHERS who wrote the compilation of stories in the bible? or the OTHERS that determined the stories that made it into the bible? if I let them (the bible writers or the church) determine how I follow god and am thus already defeated... how then is my problem with God's people? we are all God's people..... what/how I believe is not determined by scripture..


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> I think you are confusion future events with past events
> 
> satan has not been cast into hell yet.. when he is, he will not be ruling hell.. he will be there as punishment..as one of the damned


satan isn't exclusively confined to hell yet. The dark angels still roam the earth, but as pure spirit and intellect, because they have no bodies. Although they're not exclusively confined to hell yet, they're already being tormented in hell in their souls and intellectually. In their misery, it gives them some relief to be able to direct their intellects towards the will of a person here on earth ultimately through possession and of course they like to cause trouble here on earth.

In hell, everyone will be perfectly tormented. But there's a hierarchy in hell, just as there is in Heaven. When the bad angels fell from grace God didn't take everything away from them. They each still have certain powers, or specialties if you will. The devils are total legalists and won't relinquish their positions.



> how does satan accuse us if he can not be in heaven...


 satan doesn't need to be in heaven to accuse us because God is all knowing and He is everywhere.



> and where do you get the idea that nothing sinful can see God.. if that was the case.. sinner could never see God to be able to accept Him!!!!!
> I think you might be thinking about GOD WILL NOT LOOK ON SIN...


Presently we can know God in part through the gift of faith, and we can know Him on an intellectual level. But in heaven, we will be completely cleansed from all sin and then granted the Beatific Vision. We will behold His Face and we'll be perfectly happy--forever.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> like the OTHERS who wrote the compilation of stories in the bible? or the OTHERS that determined the stories that made it into the bible? if I let them (the bible writers or the church) determine how I follow god and am thus already defeated... how then is my problem with God's people? we are all God's people..... what/how I believe is not determined by scripture..


The bible is not just a book of stories. It's Divinely inspired. Do you believe that Jesus is who He said He is, the Son of God? Jesus followed the the law, scriptures, the Commandments. Scripture prophesied His coming. You can't separate Jesus from the bible. Who is Jesus to you? The Son of God? The second person of the Blessed Trinity?


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Denton said:


> Remember Moses? When he just wanted to see the shadow of God's back side?


Moses was in his earthly body, whereas Satan doesn't have such a body to be burned up.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Annie said:


> satan isn't exclusively confined to hell yet. The dark angels still roam the earth, but as pure spirit and intellect, because they have no bodies. Although they're not exclusively confined to hell yet, they're already being tormented in hell in their souls and intellectually. In their misery, it gives them some relief to be able to direct their intellects towards the will of a person here on earth ultimately through possession and of course they like to cause trouble here on earth.
> 
> In hell, everyone will be perfectly tormented. But there's a hierarchy in hell, just as there is in Heaven. When the bad angels fell from grace God didn't take everything away from them. They each still have certain powers, or specialties if you will. The devils are total legalists and won't relinquish their positions.
> 
> ...





Annie said:


> satan isn't exclusively confined to hell yet.


 Does God give him a day pass!!!?? Satan is the ruler of this world today and he has not yet been cast into hell


Annie said:


> there's a hierarchy in hell........ The devils are total legalists and won't relinquish their positions.


 where are you getting this stuff from

the Bible makes it clear that Satan is the ruler of this world, he stills roams about, and at some point he will be tossed into hell for 1000 years, released and then thrown back in


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> like the OTHERS who wrote the compilation of stories in the bible? or the OTHERS that determined the stories that made it into the bible? if I let them (the bible writers or the church) determine how I follow god and am thus already defeated... how then is my problem with God's people? we are all God's people..... what/how I believe is not determined by scripture..


You are allowed to determine which of the books you believe are inspired by yourself.. but for me the common thread and the fulfilled prophecy point to the bible being the Word of God.... if you do not want to use that then you must MAKE UP your own god (small g)

so in short... you follow the God of the Bible or you follow another god...

The only way we KNOW things is through Personal experience or by competent authority... It is up to you to investigate and determine if the Books that GOD allowed to be in the bible are inspired or not.

so again, if you are making up your own god based on some idea(s) that you have or what your heart tells you or your own desires....*how did you determine that what you believe is truth is true*? If God is speaking to you please let us know


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> what/how I believe is not determined by scripture..


Who is Jesus to you?
Who is your God?
Is your god personal, powerful, knowing?
How do you get to heaven?
What does your god require of you?
Are their other followers like you?


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Being from New England originally, we tend to mind our own business and not get pushy with what we deeply believe. That's why our town hall meetings are raucus and wild, but no one's feelings really get hurt. 

Some of you really sound like you are not as comfortable with your beliefs and need other's reinforcement to cement your own beliefs.

If someone doesn't believe what you do, shrug it off and move on.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> Moses was in his earthly body, whereas Satan doesn't have such a body to be burned up.


Thanks, brother. I knew there was something askew about my statement.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> Being from New England originally, we tend to mind our own business and not get pushy with what we deeply believe. That's why our town hall meetings are raucus and wild, but no one's feelings really get hurt.
> 
> Some of you really sound like you are not as comfortable with your beliefs and need other's reinforcement to cement your own beliefs.
> 
> If someone doesn't believe what you do, shrug it off and move on.


Iron Sharpens Iron... We learn by discussion and debate...

Look at you, you disagree with religious debate/discussion and are wiling to express your deeply held belief about this debate


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Threads like this are interesting to me, but not for the content, specifically. Look at how it veered here and there, farther and farther away from the original point.

I am heartened by the civility of the discussion, by the way. We seem to be maturing as a community.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

I never got the butt hurt deal on religious discussions, nor why the need to tippy toe around in a discussion. It is no different than current discussions going on here at PF on other topics .... Planet Nibiru, repealing Obamacare, or what about those idiot Glock fanboys who like to hate on my awesome Ruger collection.

Just like any other topic everyone is entitled to an opinion, and has the option to share or not. Some opinions are based on countless hours of research and study, while other's are simply based on the way one feels. Sharing and discussing is priceless and encourages food for thought. It helps others, as well as the contributors, validate and expand their worldview .... or not.


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## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

A Watchman said:


> I never got the butt hurt deal on religious discussions, nor why the need to tippy toe around in a discussion. It is no different than current discussions going on here at PF on other topics .... Planet Nibiru, repealing Obamacare, or what about those idiot Glock fanboys who like to hate on my awesome Ruger collection.
> 
> Just like any other topic everyone is entitled to an opinion, and has the option to share or not. Some opinions are based on countless hours of research and study, while other's are simply based on the way one feels. Sharing and discussing is priceless and encourages food for thought. It helps others, as well as the contributors, validate and expand their worldview .... or not.


Except for discussion of Rugers. They are superior. No discussion.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

indie said:


> Except for discussion of Rugers. They are superior. No discussion.


I KNEW I liked you for good reason!


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## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

A Watchman said:


> I KNEW I liked you for good reason!


Naw, it's my charming good looks and impeccable taste in loud rock.


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

Maine-Marine said:


> Who is Jesus to you? *savior son of God*
> Who is your God? *God*
> Is your god personal, powerful, knowing?*yup*
> How do you get to heaven?*not sure I will get to heaven.. being a prepper I am prepared to kill those who will do my family harm, how do I seek forgiveness for a commandment breaking sin I am sot sorry for?*
> ...


again... problem is with the possibility of an often corrupt church and popes choosing what was divine or not.. based on simply 
1. Written by a recognized prophet or apostle 
2. Written by those associated with recognized prophet or apostle
3. Truthfulness
4. Faithfulness to previously accepted canonical writings
5. Confirmed by Christ, prophet, apostle
6. Church Usage and Recognition (The Church used these writings and was deeply edified by them; they were believed over time that they were from God, and so the final acceptance of the recognition of the 66 books of the Bible as Scripture took place at the Senate of Carthage in A. D. 397)


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> Does God give him a day pass!!!??


Do you need to be in heaven right now for God to hear you? No, of course not. As I've tried to explain, God is all knowing and everywhere and He doesn't need us to be in heaven in order for _us_ to call on Him. Neither is it required that satan literally be "in" heaven for God to hear him. And in any event, Satan _can't_ be literally in the presence of God. Nothing unclean can come before the throne of God, and nothing unclean will want to come before the throne of God. If it is possible, that would be a worse torment than hell for them, because they'd see the former places God had for them, which will now be filled by the saints. There are no devils in heaven. They were cast out already.



> the Bible makes it clear that Satan is the ruler of this world, he stills roams about, and at some point he will be tossed into hell for 1000 years, released and then thrown back in.


The answer is yes and no. Before His Passion and Death on the Cross, Christ did say that "His Kingship is not of this world." Because in a bogus sort of way, yes satan is "king" and the people of this world do ignore Christ's Kingship. But satan's kingship was already lost at Calvary. And the Lord Jesus is the true and rightful King of Kings, and when He returns, every knee shall bend and every tongue will confess that it is so.



> where are you getting this stuff from


 I don't understand. If possible, please explain to me how it can be any other way?


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> Iron Sharpens Iron... We learn by discussion and debate...
> 
> Look at you, you disagree with religious debate/discussion and are wiling to express your deeply held belief about this debate


I don't disagree with debate. Browbeating,bullying, ridicule? Yep. And Iron really doesn't do too good a job of sharpening steel. A grind stone works much better and at a much slower pace.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

indie said:


> Except for discussion of Rugers. They are superior. No discussion.


Couldn't afford a Colt could you?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Real Old Man said:


> Couldn't afford a Colt could you?


:vs_laugh:


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> I don't disagree with debate. Browbeating,bullying, ridicule? Yep. And Iron really doesn't do too good a job of sharpening steel. A grind stone works much better and at a much slower pace.


I try to grid em down..slow and steady... grind, grind grind


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