# Hows my SHTF plan



## thewallfan (Apr 4, 2013)

Heres my story. I work for my city's Park and rec dept as a seasonal employee. I can get into our building and our city public works facility. Ive noticed that both buildings are full of potential useful objects; Trucks, tools, fuel, water, machinery. If or when a STHF scenario happens, I could take a truck, fuel, tools, generator and possible a tractor and head out to to my land. 

Just Kidding. This is what not to do.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Bluntly, . . . not much.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## thewallfan (Apr 4, 2013)

dwight55 said:


> Bluntly, . . . not much.
> 
> May God bless,
> Dwight


It just hit me today and just wanted to get some feedback. Now that I am thinking about it, I noticed alot of variables that could go wrong with it. But i hope its a good start.


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## Reptilicus (Jan 4, 2014)

You better get to that building fast or it will be cleaned out quick. I think that in the SHTF and WROL scenario a person is going to have to have the mindset of doing things that they wouldn't normally do, just to survive. And many of those things are going to be Very, Very ugly! So borrowing a few things as you are referring to is probably going to be one of the nicer things you do. Especially trying to get out of an area close to a city of any size. Just hope that history repeats itself in that most of your competitors for the items you mentioned will still be too busy gathering big screen TV's, boomboxes and air Jordans !


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## thewallfan (Apr 4, 2013)

Reptilicus said:


> You better get to that building fast or it will be cleaned out quick.


I'm hoping that many people don't know that there's all this valuable things in them, but you never know. But if someone steals one of my favorite trucks, I might have to do some nasty things! :lol:


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

dwight55 said:


> Bluntly, . . . not much.
> 
> May God bless,
> Dwight


they say grate minds think alike..


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Why would you want to steal? In the first place what makes you think they won't be watching for theft of government property in an emergency? How are you going to get stolen vehicles past the road blocks? 
This is bad thinking! get your stuff ready and forget about getting anything from the government.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

PaulS said:


> Why would you want to steal? In the first place what makes you think they won't be watching for theft of government property in an emergency? How are you going to get stolen vehicles past the road blocks?
> This is bad thinking! get your stuff ready and forget about getting anything from the government.


I put my vote on this to, every shtf scenario stealing wile it's going down needs to be avoided at all costs (the government quickly issues shoot on site orders against looters)

I can see where you are coming from but the list of "items" you have your eye on, you can live without, seriously... are they worth your life

you know the site and area, maybe in a mad max event visit later, on a salvage run...

but I will give you my version of this plan
I volunteer at a fire station, that specializes in fighting bush fires (it's 100% volunteer) and the station has w massive amount of useful items if shtf, from fuel to drinking water, first aid supplies, solar power, rain water holding tank, fire resistant vehicles (chances are slightly emp resistant)... 
my point, at no stage will I visit the station as a looter (as described as a looter) maybe (a big maybe) use the site if there is a zombie apocalypse.... 
but seriously until the dust has settled (and there is no government, no rule of law) I may go on a salvage run, but that's a big maybe, as most items are luxury, unless Its life or death (where death is more likely) I will pay a visit...
but with respect to myself and my beliefs (my "code of honor") its a line I really don't what to cross...

this is what you need to do, draw a line in the sand and ask yourself, will you sleep at night


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## KCCO_CANADA (Jan 7, 2014)

If you are a employee there I say suit up the good old work uniform and take anything you want no one will think to question you with the uniform specially road blocks you got yourself good cover my friend I say do it !


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## pharmer14 (Oct 27, 2012)

thewallfan said:


> Like I said this is my plan and until I get a good paying job, I will have to "borrow" some things. What all do you think about it?


Judging by your avatar, this "plan" goes against several points of the scout law you have apparently followed long enough to become an Eagle Scout. Does this make you trustworthy or loyal to your employer for example? It also goes against the scout motto of "Be Prepared".

As an Eagle, you should be intimately familiar with camping. My advice would be to return to your scouting roots and re-think your "plan." You're better than reacting to problems and looting to make up for your shortcomings. Become more proactive. Think about problems before they occur and plan accordingly.


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## Space (Mar 14, 2013)

A question occurred to me, have you taken any active steps toward executing this plan? If so, does that constitute an attempt to commit a crime? A friend of mine is a lawyer (we're not that good of friends) and he pointed out how much illegal stuff actually goes on in the preparedness world. Example: It is illegal to make explosives without the proper license. I'm told the government will even consider you a terrorist if you make explosives but I cannot confirm this. So, my question, which I don't want you to answer, is geared toward discovering if you've taken sufficient steps to cross the line into a plan to commit a crime and more importantly to caution you against posting your intent to steal from the government on the internet.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

I don't think stealing from the govt. Would be advisable. I would think PSHTF you would not want to attract attention, especially from the govt.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

thewallfan said:


> Heres my story. I work for my city's Park and rec dept as a seasonal employee. I can get into our building and our city public works facility. Ive noticed that both buildings are full of potential useful objects; Trucks, tools, fuel, water, machinery. If or when a STHF scenario happens, I could take a truck, fuel, tools, generator and possible a tractor and head out to to my land. But what worries me is that its on the edge of the city and that is the last place I want to go. Like I said this is my plan and until I get a good paying job, I will have to "borrow" some things. What all do you think about it?


You are kidding me. You say you are a part time city park employee and if thing go bad you will take from them, and then put that out on the internet.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

I think this plan will lead to illegal immigration.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

SHTF with in seconds I want to be as far away as I can get from any government building. How far would a City truck make it?


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## thewallfan (Apr 4, 2013)

Sorry I did not post this. I was logged in at work and one of the guys on community service for sealing stuff posted it. Guess i gotta learn to sign out! How do you delete a thread.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

thewallfan said:


> Sorry I did not post this. I was logged in at work and one of the guys on community service for sealing stuff posted it. Guess i gotta learn to sign out! How do you delete a thread.


i think we shocked the original poster, nothing justifies being a thief

leave it up as a warning to others (see if you can edit the title tho)


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## thewallfan (Apr 4, 2013)

pheniox17 said:


> i think we shocked the original poster, nothing justifies being a thief
> 
> leave it up as a warning to others (see if you can edit the title tho)


I seriously didnt post this, but I like the idea of it being a warning.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Old SF Guy said:


> Really folks??? unless your SHTF situation is a a simple natural disaster, which every person should be prepared for irrespective of his or her politics. I have always thought of a SHTF situation as one where society breaks down for what ever reason and many things fall offline. The absolute last thing I will be worried about is civil law, or even criminal law issues. We openly talk about killing anyone who threatens our survival, then get weepy eyed over someone saying they would steal government property. I will steal, I will kill, I will speed, I will litter, I will torture, I will be very very bad...and may even loiter a time or two. If it means my kids live another day. Please stop acting like taking a city owned truck or generator is some heinous crime.


i don't think anyone here is against the thought of salvaging, but most are against looting, this is a very fine line..

it's the question of morals, would you at the moment you realized shtf is going down loot a government building... (or any building??) or would you take note of where these buildings are, and when the dust is settled, there is no law, then consider a salvage run??

this post starts off as a looting post... like it's ok to be a looter...


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

Old SF Guy said:


> Really folks??? unless your SHTF situation is a a simple natural disaster, which every person should be prepared for irrespective of his or her politics. I have always thought of a SHTF situation as one where society breaks down for what ever reason and many things fall offline. The absolute last thing I will be worried about is civil law, or even criminal law issues. We openly talk about killing anyone who threatens our survival, then get weepy eyed over someone saying they would steal government property. I will steal, I will kill, I will speed, I will litter, I will torture, I will be very very bad...and may even loiter a time or two. If it means my kids live another day. Please stop acting like taking a city owned truck or generator is some heinous crime.


I actually agree with this. Now I'm not talking after a hurricane where it will be bad for a few days/weeks. I am talking about a full blown shtf scenario where society breaks down for an extended period and there is no law or order in sight. I think you will do whatever it takes to survive. If that means taking a government truck or generator so be it. You have to remember, there is no law or society. Nobody is going to be worrying about how the things at the yard are doing? They will be taking care of their own families and will probably be taking the stuff themselves.. I also agree with what OLD SF guy said about us talking about shooting about anyone that comes on our properties but talking aobut taking a government vehicle like it is just below someones morals.. Personally, I think you should have all of your stuff prepared and ready to go so you don't have to worry aobut this scenario. I have NEVER been in trouble with the law and have never even stolen a pack of bubble gum. But I can tell you one thing. In a MAJOR long term SHTF situation this sure isn't beneath me!!


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Old SF Guy said:


> Trust me...I work for the government which means I know were the ammo storage is and the MRE's, explosives, etc.....guess where I am headed in the first hours of a SHTF scenario...


miles away, unless you know for 100% security will be extremely lax??


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

PrepConsultant said:


> I actually agree with this. Now I'm not talking after a hurricane where it will be bad for a few days/weeks. I am talking about a full blown shtf scenario where society breaks down for an extended period and there is no law or order in sight. I think you will do whatever it takes to survive. If that means taking a government truck or generator so be it. You have to remember, there is no law or society. Nobody is going to be worrying about how the things at the yard are doing? They will be taking care of their own families and will probably be taking the stuff themselves.. I also agree with what OLD SF guy said about us talking about shooting about anyone that comes on our properties but talking aobut taking a government vehicle like it is just below someones morals.. Personally, I think you should have all of your stuff prepared and ready to go so you don't have to worry aobut this scenario. I have NEVER been in trouble with the law and have never even stolen a pack of bubble gum. But I can tell you one thing. In a MAJOR long term SHTF situation this sure isn't beneath me!!


again the fine line between salvaging and looting...


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

pheniox17 said:


> i don't think anyone here is against the thought of salvaging, but most are against looting, this is a very fine line..
> 
> it's the question of morals, would you at the moment you realized shtf is going down loot a government building... (or any building??) or would you take note of where these buildings are, and when the dust is settled, there is no law, then consider a salvage run??
> 
> this post starts off as a looting post... like it's ok to be a looter...


I see what you are saying. But I would be thinking that other people would know about it too and if you wait and come back later, it's going to have been raided already. I would think that we would know whether it was a small emergency or a major the government have crumpled and everything is going to hell for the long haul situation..


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

Again, I am in BFE and have about everything I need. Anyplace that I would have to loot/salvage is wayy too far for me to go anyway. I am talking if I were going to be in or near some kind of civilization and had to do what it took. I owuld have no problem doing it if the situation like I was talking about were to happen.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Old SF Guy said:


> Pheniox17...The very moment I suspect SHTF...I'm a looter, a criminal, and a survivalist...period...judge me after the fact, but every store will be looted....to think you can later come back and say...well now its bad enough that I will become a thief is any better than the guy that says...right now...I am a thief...the only difference is I will already have what you are coming back to get.


personally I'm not judging... (sorry if im coming off as judgmental)

but think of this (you would already know but think of it anyway) SHOOT ON SIGHT ORDERS, will defiantly be issued... then comes the question, is it worth having a gun battle with government employees (yea you have the experience, but you also know your chances)

if it's part of your plan grate, but the further I can get from heavily armed government forces the better off I am... and that's the point I'm making, im not going to die over a extra 1000 rounds or a hand full of mres...(rat packs)

it's just my view on it


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

pheniox17 said:


> personally I'm not judging... (sorry if im coming off as judgmental)
> 
> but think of this (you would already know but think of it anyway) SHOOT ON SIGHT ORDERS, will defiantly be issued... then comes the question, is it worth having a gun battle with government employees (yea you have the experience, but you also know your chances)
> 
> ...


I agree with this also. I would not go out of my way to salvage a place unless I knew there was no security in the first place. It's not even having experience to go against them. If you are fighting someone for their property, YOU are the thief... But if it were accessible and there was nobody around. Fair game in my mind. You have to remember, government is/has fallen. The only ones going to be getting that stuff would be people just like ourselves. It's not like in 2-10 years after things were good again they are going to try to account for that stuff..


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

PrepConsultant said:


> I see what you are saying. But I would be thinking that other people would know about it too and if you wait and come back later, it's going to have been raided already. I would think that we would know whether it was a small emergency or a major the government have crumpled and everything is going to hell for the long haul situation..


there are a lot of warehouses that people do know about (or just fish in the area) and a lot of stores will be looted I don't doubt that at all, but there will be areas overlooked. pickings will become slim over time, these are all factors to worry about, I have no intention to loot a building for a shiny new knife or a extra few days of food or fuel.

it's personal choice


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

I think people have different mentalities and would do different things. I am the kind of guy that will do whatever it takes. Some people are against torture and that is a line that they will not cross. I am not one of those people. Some people have no problem robbing a family of their belongings. I am not one of those people either. In the end, I will be one of the "good guys" but might have to do some "bad things" along the way. That might not make sense to some but it will to others. Everyone is different..


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Old SF Guy said:


> Understood, but there will not be shoot on site orders that will prevent ths guy from getting to his city truck, generator, etc...and many of us do not have the means to stock pile a years worth of rations on our acres of land located in the mountains...some of us are barely making due and our plans involve immediately becoming a criminal in order to get out of our currently living conditions so that we have a better chance of survival. Folks who have made this person feel like they are violating some moral positions that we are upholding and potentially cause him to second guess his way into a grave is wrong when we also portend that we will kill to protect and survive. The Government is we the people... Taxes bought all that stuff...and when it breaks down it reverts back to the public and the person smart enough to get it and use it.....good luck to him/her....again, I am not talking about some natural disaster that occurs, but a real SHTF scenario... I could care less about your morals...I have already killed more people than I graduated with for my country...I will do whatever it takes to defend my family and friends...period. If that makes me a bad person...so be it...but I'll be a live bad person and so will my wife, kids, and friends.


again goes to "the line in the sand" 
you know you can sleep at night, but that would have taken a lot of training, and hats off to you sir, do I think of you as a lesser person because of it?? NO, tbh it makes you more valuable in a group setting as the "questionable" actions that may need to be done, you have no problem doing...

I don't see the point of surviving if I don't stick to my moral values... if it decreases my chances so be it, but I have to sleep at night...

this is a each to there own mindset to be clear... and personally don't care where your values are or what your willing to do, but knowing there will be more like you, means I have to reevaluate a lot of "tactile" decisions... as at what point dose me and mine become a target for you and yours...

good luck!!
and god bless


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

I have seen in forums lately talk about the movie Lone Survivor. Several people said or implied that they should have killed the herders. Some of those guys are the same kind of guys that say that what this guy is doing is beneath them.. So killing an unarmed kid is ok but taking some machinery from the government is taboo?? He is not talking about going in and taking out people that work there to get his stuff. I would bet out of the majority of the people here, if any of them worked for Lake City,Sig,Ruger or any other company like that. If a major ling term shtf scenario happened. They would try their asses of to get whatever they could out of there...


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I make preparations so I don't have to loot or steal to make it when the SHTF. Planning to begin your preps by stealing just doesn't ring true to me. If you want to be prepared for a disaster then prepare so that you and your family/group will have what it takes to go on living. If you start off as a scavenger then why bother calling yourself a prepper?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

First, I asked questions. It is not my place to judge - if I did then I beg (yes beg) forgiveness. I have a limited income too but I have been preparing since the early seventies. I am debt free and have learned to live within my means. 

My morals don't differentiate between individuals and organizations. The guy who owns the store owns what is in it and for me it is wrong to take what he owns. The government equipment might be needed to help others and my morals don't make stealing that less wrong than stealing from a neighbor or you. These are my morals and I don't expect anyone to share them. 

Everyone deserves to live and they have a right to live but (my morals again) not if that takes away the rights of others.

That's why I ask what makes it ok to steal from others to provide for yourself? That is not (in my opinion) what a prepper does. I am not standing on "higher moral ground" here I am just stating what I am uncomfortable with. Will I kill to protect my family? YES! without a doubt - I will end the life of any individual or group that intends harm without guilt (I wish) without hesitation at least. I hope that my preparations will prevent the need for me to steal - and It would break my spirit if I had to resort to that to survive. I don't think I could live with that.

I do not intend to vilify anyone for making sure that their family is taken care of but I would rather see you can a meal each time you cooked one and put it in the pantry for later than just take theft as a way to make up for lack of funds. 

This is just my person view and I am not selling it for anyone else. I am certainly in no position to judge you or anyone else. That is left for the One with the ability to do it justly.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

Something else in this line of thinking. If I were to not have a BOL. I would have no problem taking over a vacant bank forclosure. That in a way is stealing from a bank. The way I see it is if it were a major shtf scenario like we are talking about. There are not going to be people looking after these properties. Is it stealing. Sure it is. But I don't think there would be any organizations around to care. Even afterward. Computers and paperwork would be demolished. It would be a whole new start IMO...


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

PrepConsultant said:


> Something else in this line of thinking. If I were to not have a BOL. I would have no problem taking over a vacant bank forclosure. That in a way is stealing from a bank. The way I see it is if it were a major shtf scenario like we are talking about. There are not going to be people looking after these properties. Is it stealing. Sure it is. But I don't think there would be any organizations around to care. Even afterward. Computers and paperwork would be demolished. It would be a whole new start IMO...


lol isn't that referred to as squatting lol (again I see the point of theft here) but again fine line between looting and salvaging


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

Someone opened a can of shit worms here...

Welcome to the world of Grey (or is it Gray?) without the sex.

Paul, I'm sure you intended no disrespect or was implying anything as far as his morality. Just understand that Spec Ops by nature and training will do what it takes to survive and accomplish the mission. It's not pretty by definition, but neither are the places or situations we've been placed in either. What is second nature to us, generally is an hours days long debate by most folks. Most Spec Ops have been deployed far more longer than they have been home, and so protecting the loved ones that have had to endure the burden (we have a 80%+ divorce rate) becomes a very personal mission for us. Most haven't had the time and dang sure not the money to prepare in advance for any other catastrophe other than the next bill payment.

The difference between scavenging and stealing is all a matter of perspective, from every view. If it is a truly SHTF event, I would say that immediately fortifying whatever preps you have is acceptable. If the power goes out because of an ice storm, maybe not. A good question is, could a minor event, because of looting, snowball into a larger event that gets out of control? Sure, it very well could. But I don't think it would be because an Spec Ops guy is "looting" everything in sight. He knows when it's gone way past bad and will act accordingly. The rest of the panicked masses? Go to Walmart just before a winter storm warning...I could see that happening,easily.

The moral aspect? I know my morals, and I think that most people won't forget them, but I know that there's a fairly large segment who don't have any morals at all. Would I have a problem taking them out of the equation if warranted? Nope, not at all. Same as any other hell hole in the world. Same as Old SF Guy would. I'd like to think that even when it goes to hell in a handbasket, we will still be the sheepdogs. We're gonna still try our damndest to protect the flock, even if they aren't from our flock. It's our nature, and we can't help it. Yeah, we'll protect our own, but we're nice to know if you need help.

JMHO


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

You have a moral obligation to provide for your family. I believe as long as your intent is true and your actions unavoidable you will have little to pay for when you meet your maker. 
Our Creator made us with limits and He knows them better than we do. Do your best with what you have and you won't go wrong of God.
A carpenter does not blame the table for collapsing under too much weight - he is well aware of the limits to which it was constructed.

I am sure if it gets bad enough that I will have to "set aside" my morals too but it is going to be difficult to do so. I, too, am just a man with all the frailties of any other man.


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

And thank you SF...

You know why.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

how about I add this, 

can out of our disagreement on the topic, agree as long as we don't go out of our way to harm another man... we have a moral foundation??


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

Everyone has a line they don't want to cross but will if they have to. I don't like crossing the line but have int he past and am sure I will in the future. Especially if something happens like I think it might.. Semper Fi!


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