# Please help me choose.



## taps50 (Sep 28, 2013)

I have just recently starting prepping, and I have only made one purchase so far (a S&W 9mm pistol). Now I am debating between starting my Bug Out Bag or picking up a AR-!%for a little more protection/hunting abilities. Which way should I go? And please keep in mind I am a college student with minimal funds, thanks in advance for you input.


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## taps50 (Sep 28, 2013)

Ar-15*


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

It depends on some things. A bug out bag can be started for under a $100. An AR-15 is likely to run you a minimum of $700 and then some for ammo, magazines, cleaning gear, case, and if you choose to add optics, bipod, etc. An AR-15 with lots of ammo, magazines and other items will easily exceed a $1000 and so then I have to ask how much you are spending a month prepping? If its a $1000 a month then save up and buy a really nice AR and lots of accessories and you can still nail down a Bug Out Bag in 2 months too.

There are other equations. Since I just left CA as a resident but still have property and still work there I know for a fact the laws are on the verge of changing dramatically there. The Gov has not yet signed AB 374 but if it does - NO ONE in CA will buy an AR-15 after Dec. 31, 2013. So if you lived in CA you might want to prioritize the AR-15 right now, and conversely if you lived in a FREE state like NV (my legal residency now) I'd avoid the AR-15 right now because once the State of CA ban goes into place the manufactureres are going to lose 11-12% of their national market - which means bargains for the rest of us next year at this time.


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## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

What he said.


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## AvengersAssembled (Dec 13, 2012)

Yeah, I'd say unless you're in CA or a really good deal on an AR-15 comes up, I'd go for a BOB. You don't have to spend a ton of money to have a good one. And you don't have to have all the money at once, you can start out with a good backpack and add items whenever you get the chance/funds. That's what I did, I added to mine over the span of a couple months, just as I got the money for it, while also saving up for a new rifle.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

You are asking a Opinion so in my case I would say AR15
And the reason are simple You can get an Ar now ,will you be able to down the road? 
Hand guns have their uses , but are limited. One will do if funds are limited time to get something a bit more flexible.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

An AR-15 because unlike most things in your BOB it will retain its value just about forever if reasonable care is taken. Guns are about the only tangible thing I own that after 25 years I can still get what I paid for them. So it is good not only if SHTF but in a few years if for some reason you need some emergency money it can be sold. But for me it would have to be a major emergency.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

SHTF and there you are... Bug out bag and no weapon? = Somebody with a weapon now has a new bug out bag.

Aside from being "trendy", why an AR though? The only rifle that comes to mind that nearly mandates carrying a baggy of spare parts, .22 caliber opposed to widely available .30 caliber, _not_ exactly famous for reliability, and the only rifle that's actually so poorly engineered it "poops where it eats". :/ Even wild animals know better than that.

And the only rifle to ever earn such a prestigious name / reputation!

AKA "The Poodle Shooter"
View attachment 2762


https://www.google.com/#q=poodle+shooter


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## pharmer14 (Oct 27, 2012)

Get the bag and a 22. While an AR would be a nice add, someone who has little to no shooting experience would be better off starting with a smaller caliber. You can carry more 22 ammo with you than AR anyways. 

I just think this early in the game, you've got several different issues you need to take care of. People who pick up AR's often get consumed in modifying them with fancy toys. I think it might be better to take a modest approach.

Yeah the AR will be helpful in one or two situation (self defense or hunting). A bug out bag on the other hand will allow you to accomplish many different things (shelter, water, food, etc) and leave some cash for a 22 which will still let you hunt for some small game.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

BigCheese, tell us how you really feel, lol. Gotta ask, have you ever carried an AR platform in an environement where people are trying to kill you?


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I set specific goals. My first procurements were all semi-automatic rifles, high capacity magazines and ammo. This was simply because you never know when the liberals will finally get some bans passed. I lack only an M-44 with two 440 round tins. Once I have that in hand I'm moving onto beans, rice and freeze dried foods and I'm going to start rotating bottled water.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Rigged for Quiet said:


> BigCheese, tell us how you really feel, lol. Gotta ask, have you ever carried an AR platform in an environement where people are trying to kill you?


 I Have


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

Rigged for Quiet said:


> BigCheese, tell us how you really feel, lol. Gotta ask, have you ever carried an AR platform in an environement where people are trying to kill you?


Unfortunately yes. I also shot "expert" with one 5 out of 6 times, and even currently own an AR (DPMS LR-308) that I've fine tuned and modified enough to feel it almost qualify as "reliable" as long as I keep a baggy of spare parts handy _like ALL AR owners should_. The whole AR platform is a weapon flawed from one end to the other in every possible aspect (pick a part, almost EVERY part). The _ONLY_ reason for it's acceptance is Robert McNamara took one of the greatest pay offs of military history to push it through. The reason for it being trendy is obvious. "It's what the military uses, it's whats in all the movies. I wanna be a hero just like them!" :-?

I hate seeing good people get played for a sucker buying into a marketing trend. Spending hard earned money for a weapon they might one day trust their lives to only to find out to late what they _really_ bought.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> I Have


Top, how much ya wanna bet we have the same platform(s) in the safe for our "go to"? I imagine we're both mind numbingly trained on mulltiple platforms, and probably used more than a few on the job, but our choice for personal use is the same. I'll grant they may not be bone stock outta the box examples though, lol.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> I Have


Sorry to hear that, but thank you for your courage and service!


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

BigCheeseStick said:


> Unfortunately yes. I also shot "expert" with one 5 out of 6 times, and even currently own an AR (DPMS LR-308) that I've fine tuned and modified enough to feel it almost qualify as "reliable" as long as I keep a baggy of spare parts handy _like ALL AR owners should_. The whole AR platform is a weapon flawed from one end to the other in every possible aspect (pick a part, almost EVERY part). The _ONLY_ reason for it's acceptance is Robert McNamara took one of the greatest pay offs of military history to push it through. The reason for it being trendy is obvious. "It's what the military uses, it's whats in all the movies. I wanna be a hero just like them!" :-?
> 
> I hate seeing good people get played for a sucker buying into a marketing trend. Spending hard earned money for a weapon they might one day trust their lives to only to find out to late what they _really_ bought.


I'll give you the fact that placing your life in the hands of a $600 AR is not the best choice. Cheap parts build cheap weapons. However, our views of a properly built platform seem to differ greatly. The beauty of life is choice though.

There are multiple choices of systems and I'm hard pressed to disagree with someones personal choices based on their own experiences. I will also wager if we were to compare safes or wish lists we would have more in common than not. All be it in possibly a differing ranking order.


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## taps50 (Sep 28, 2013)

I don't have much experience with ARs but I am a decent shot with rifles, I was thinking an AR more for the defense, they tend to strike fear people who see them. I was looking into a .22 caliber AR, but I also for a 5.56mm AR for $650. Unfortunately as I am on a tight budget I have around $50 to $75/month to spend on prepping. The main reason I was thinking of getting an AR now is because its kind of a perfect storm where I get 3 paydays next month and will be getting some money someone owes me, so this may be the last time for a while I can make a big money item. Thank you for your opinions already and I look forward to more of your opinions.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Rigged for Quiet said:


> Top, how much ya wanna bet we have the same platform(s) in the safe for our "go to"? I imagine we're both mind numbingly trained on mulltiple platforms, and probably used more than a few on the job, but our choice for personal use is the same. I'll grant they may not be bone stock outta the box examples though, lol.


 AR are flexible do a wide range of duties , the better trained you are with one the better they serve you. They are feed the right ammo for the job witch makes a big difference. If need be the M24 is still here ready to go picked that one up from Remington recondition like new. 
I have switched all new purchases of AR's to gas Piston , they won me over.
What you must understand with an AR is proper use of the sights at zero distance out to 50 meters ,then out 300 and the 300-600. 
Own some AK platforms but they are short range weapons not a replacement for an AR by any means.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

OK, if anyone ever asks, I'll deny ever having said this:razz:......but.

If that is your budget you might consider looking into an AK platform. It's not nearly as accurate, but it shoots and will work well enough out to 200 or 300 so yards. In all honesty, any advesary farther away than that is far enough away to avoid.

Ammo is cheaper too.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

All in all we call it prepping not finished
We work at it chip away bit at a time. Each persons needs differ depending where you are threats you may or may not face early on.
BOB for me is a short term get back where I should be tool. Sort out your needs and wants fill the needs first.
If you can't defend it it is not yours long if you have nothing to defend then your screwed anyway.
If they are close enough to see you have an AR you broke rule number one. Keep your distance avoid contact.
But when rule number 1 falls it is a good idea to have to tools to correct the mistake.
While shopping for the right tools remember to pray this country wakes up and we avoid as much of the SHTF as we can.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

taps50 said:


> I don't have much experience with ARs but I am a decent shot with rifles, I was thinking an AR more for the defense, they tend to strike fear people who see them. I was looking into a .22 caliber AR, but I also for a 5.56mm AR for $650. Unfortunately as I am on a tight budget I have around $50 to $75/month to spend on prepping. The main reason I was thinking of getting an AR now is because its kind of a perfect storm where I get 3 paydays next month and will be getting some money someone owes me, so this may be the last time for a while I can make a big money item. Thank you for your opinions already and I look forward to more of your opinions.


You could pick up a _very nice_ AK in your price range. The outline of an AK is known worldwide. So much so it's even on one countries flag! Ammo is equally cheap, it's a weapon simple enough to maintain my daughter could completely field strip one and resemble it _with her eyes closed_ at 9yrs old. Vietnamese were known to "clean" theirs by tying knots in their boot laces, dipping them in used motor oil, and pulling them through the barrel (no special tender loving care or spare parts needed!). A weapon as tough as sun dried elephant jerky.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I would opt for a BOB and then add a Ruger 10/22 when you can afford it.

Unlike many, I don't plan on fighting my way past throngs of zombies. Besides, Biden tells me all I need is a double barreled shotgun, and he really seems to know his shit. <cough>

Having a .22 will force you to think more about avoiding conflict rather than seeking it out. This is always a better plan, especially if modern medical facilities aren't readily available. There's no chance of getting shot if you remain unseen.


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## Leon (Jan 30, 2012)

with an AR you can just take someone elses bug out bag


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Everyone wants to start out with the sexy preps; rifles, pistols, big boss survival knife with the built in compass and flare gun. Really when it comes down to it in survival situation; food, water, and shelter. You have the means to protect yourself with the 9mm pistol. Get your Bob together with the essentials to survive. You can add the Ar-15 later.


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## Paltik (Jul 27, 2013)

A lot depends on what scenario the fan-hitting involves. Based on the info you gave us (you have a 9mm handgun), your next two choices just don't make much sense to me (BOB vs. AR-15).

I would suggest starting with the basics, at least 2 weeks of stockpiled water and food (and FAK and related supplies), get your important documents organized, and make some plans. It is unclear to me if you have a BOL and route selected; in my experience, based on the question you posed, you do not. So instead of a BOB after the water and food, I'd put together a GHB first.

I don't know what the situation is in Wisconsin, but if you're worried you might not be able to purchase your AR-15 (also not my choice of carbine), you could just purchase a stripped lower to be able to get your more basic needs taken care of. Seeing as you already have a handgun, I'd say basic food, water, and shelter are your next priorities. Once you have 2 weeks worth and a plan for getting home, then extend your parameters and go for a bigger arsenal, more supplies, a prepared BOL, and, yes, a BOB.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

Leon said:


> with an AR you can just take someone elses bug out bag


Unless it jams, and they beat you to death with one of the goodies in their pack. LOL! :razz:

Sorry, couldn't help myself.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

One option you could consider is to build up your BOB and add a 4oz. can of Fox pepper spray in a holster on the strap. EFFECTIVE, & CHEAP alternative to carrying a gun for self defense. Youtube videos can give you an idea on how well the stuff works. But realize in every video I've seen they only give a very quick little squirt of the stuff. If you empty a 4oz. can, you will pretty much end a few peoples world as they know it.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

For the price of Colt AR15 ($1200) I could buy a BOB the goodies to go in it a 10 22 take down a brick of ammo and several BX 25 magazines and probably have enough left over to buy that big boss survival knife with the built in compass and flare gun. 
Myself I'd opt for the bag, then look at the AR as one of several options.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Rigged for Quiet said:


> OK, if anyone ever asks, I'll deny ever having said this:razz:......but.
> 
> If that is your budget you might consider looking into an AK platform. It's not nearly as accurate, but it shoots and will work well enough out to 200 or 300 so yards. In all honesty, any advesary farther away than that is far enough away to avoid.
> 
> Ammo is cheaper too.


I have to disagree with this. Sorry. From a prepping perspective... an AR is a lousy weapon despite the millions in existence. The AK is the better weapon for combat, but not for prepping.

When the SHTF (as if it hasn't already) ammo becomes scarce and expensive. The 7.62 x 39 on the market tends to be steel cased, berdan primed and that translates into a bullet you cannot reload. When the bans are in place, spare parts will dry up in days. You could end up with an expensive boat anchor in days with an ammo import ban if you rely on the AK.

I wonder if this guy thought about doing both. You purchase items a few at a time for your BOB AND build your AR one piece at a time. With one paycheck, buy the receiver for the AR. The next paycheck, be cheap and go to Goodwill stores, flea markets, etc. and shop for a quality BOB. BTW, I found a new, heavy duty tool bag that holds a LOT of stuff for $15. It's double tough, water resistant, and large enough for all your BOB gear. I paid $15 for it at a flea market (they are about $30 at Lowes and Home Depot.)

Anyway, the next month, you purchase your barrel and every month thereafter, purchase your AR items, starting with the most expensive components and working your way down. Much of your BOB stuff is already lying around the house, so it will be cheap to build a quality one over time without compromising on what you actually need.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

The Resister said:


> I have to disagree with this. Sorry. From a prepping perspective... an AR is a lousy weapon despite the millions in existence. The AK is the better weapon for combat, but not for prepping.
> 
> When the SHTF (as if it hasn't already) ammo becomes scarce and expensive. The 7.62 x 39 on the market tends to be steel cased, berdan primed and that translates into a bullet you cannot reload. When the bans are in place, spare parts will dry up in days. You could end up with an expensive boat anchor in days with an ammo import ban if you rely on the AK.
> 
> ...


Only problem here is if anything happens in the next year (LIKELY), he's left holding a pile of junk and _very_ poorly prepared for much of anything... 

Worse yet is in the end he ends up stuck with an AR! :razz:


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Unfortunately, the AR and the AK are the same price now. The AR parts kits are cheaper than the AK

AR15/M16 Parts Kit - Flat top upper without detachable carrying handle & rear sight


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## wallyLOZ (May 12, 2013)

Like what has already been stated, your next step should be your BOB, IMHO. 

You've got close in self defense covered with the 9mm. Next you need to think about shelter. In your location in winter you could freeze to death in 30 mins or less. Then water, then food. In that order. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> Unfortunately, the AR and the AK are the same price now. The AR parts kits are cheaper than the AK
> 
> AR15/M16 Parts Kit - Flat top upper without detachable carrying handle & rear sight


 Those kits do not come with lower receiver that will add 300-450 to the price.
But you are right Even the cheap AK's are not cheap any more


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Are we simply going to assume the OP has the skills tools and knowledge necessary to assemble an AR from parts? Maybe he does maybe he doesn't. 

What I can say is this. The closer a kit rifle "like the RRA" is to a completed rifle, the more expensive it becomes. It seems to me that by the time one buys a lower receiver for a nearly completed kit and a receiver they have not saved that much over buying a completed rifle.


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## Verteidiger (Nov 16, 2012)

Everyone has to take their own circumstances into account, but way back when, as I began to prep, after I had gathered the necessary gear to camp out if your house/housing is destroyed, etc., and I had the basics of water, food, clothing, shelter, and fire making covered, first I bought a pistol (S&W .357 revolver, which also shoots .38 Special) then I bought a Ruger 10/22. 

A .22 LR with a 4x scope will keep you fed off small game, and now with 25-round magazines available, can put well-aimed accurate fire on a target, and is available for under $300. I was a student then, and it was all I could afford with a summer job....

I would get a Ruger 10/22, a decent 4x scope, 1000 rounds of ammo, and then I would build a bug out bag with a first aid kit, with a multi-tool and a quality flashlight, and a rain poncho.

An AR-15 is worth owning, but in your circumstances a .22 carbine will more than suffice. Later on you can upgrade.

One thing people tend to forget - and as we have learned in the Middle East - you cannot kill your way out of some problems.

What you need to do is survive - a 9mm helps, but it will not put food over the campfire like a good small game hunting rifle or carbine will.

I recently moved from the countryside to a major city - if I tried to shoot my way out of a crowd of evildoers here, my barrel is going to overheat....

You will find that escaping and evading beats an all-out firefight 10 times out of 10, if you are looking to survive....

Get a gun that will feed you. Get some 25 round mags in case you do encounter an issue you need to escape from.

Then once your money is there, buy a .308 semi-auto piston gun...like an M1A.

If you must have a combat weapon, buy an M1 Garand from the Civilian Marksmanship Program - $625 delivered to your front door and 30.06 firepower, with a piston operating system.

My two cents, anyway....


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

I know testosterone and ego are going to IMMEDIATELY tell everybody "NOT going to happen to ME!". But, _here's a little reality check._

One of our nations last real world SHTF situation was when the "Katrina" storm hit. First thing that happened? Martial Law. You can hear an AR or AK fired for over a _mile_ in any direction, _clear as a bell._ ESPECIALLY when "NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO BE ARMED.".






The first thing your hear in this video, DON'T EVER FORGET IT.






That quite little 10/22 starting to sound more appealing? Along with a couple cans of Fox 5.3 pepper spray?


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

BOB first if you are in an inner city situation an AR is a for glamor. 

Four weapons first
1.) quality pistol, you have it
2.) .22 rim fire semi auto 
3.) 12 gauge pump shot gun with two barrels, slug and bird
4.) deer rifle, .243, .270 30-06 .308 you choose it does not matter

I went to an estate Auction yesterday and seen a mossberg pump 12 sell for $140, a Remington tube feed .22 go for 180 and a pump Remington 30-06 for $375 that would round out a very good weapons selection for $695.00 on top of the pistol you have. 

There are estate auctions every week end on Saturday that have similar deals, you do not have to spend the long dollar at a gun store to get your self well prepared.

The same goes for setup of your BOB, There were hunting knifes high quality bone handle sold yesterday for 2 and 5 dollars. 



Then a Barbie rifle AR-15 or what ever is popular by the time you get the first four checked off the list.

I understand you are of limited funds, but I believe you can check these four off the list for the cost of a mid range quality AR.


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## taps50 (Sep 28, 2013)

Reading all your points of views have made me to start thinking. I live in a city, and may have to maneuver through a large group of people, I do have a BOL in mind although it is approximately fifty miles from where I live. I grew up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (for those of you who don't know its mostly woods) and I do know basic survival such as fire starting, trapping, finding/creating shelter etc. I am starting to pick up the cheaper BOB items such as waterproof matches, a one person tent, and ive been debating on a few different BOB bags, all around 45 bucks. I will also admit I was pretty set on getting the AR, but since I have posted this on here I have started to open my eyes on what I actually NEED to survive.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Those kits do not come with lower receiver that will add 300-450 to the price.
> But you are right Even the cheap AK's are not cheap any more


Bullshit, polymer lowers and 80% receivers are $80 or less all day long. Don't give shit about polymers not being as good as aluminum, I ran them all day long and they past contract requirements.

https://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=245_285


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Seneca said:


> Are we simply going to assume the OP has the skills tools and knowledge necessary to assemble an AR from parts? Maybe he does maybe he doesn't.
> 
> What I can say is this. The closer a kit rifle "like the RRA" is to a completed rifle, the more expensive it becomes. It seems to me that by the time one buys a lower receiver for a nearly completed kit and a receiver they have not saved that much over buying a completed rifle.


Building an AR is not like building an AK. AR's go together real easy.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> Building an AR is not like building an AK. AR's go together real easy.


You do not build an AR you assemble it. Watch a quick youtube video and just about anyone can do it.
The first time or two you put all the parts in a lower you will need to look at your notes a couple times. 
If you start messing with separating barrel and upper receiver then you need a bit more study up and a few more tools.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> You do not build an AR you assemble it. Watch a quick youtube video and just about anyone can do it.
> The first time or two you put all the parts in a lower you will need to look at your notes a couple times.
> If you start messing with separating barrel and upper receiver then you need a bit more study up and a few more tools.


I can't stress enough to clean every part including the new receiver. When I say clean, I mean sitting on the parade deck in MCRD cleaning your rifle for the first time clean. I have had countless people come to me and say, "my this doesn't fit or this doesn't go together." A quick clean is all it took. Assembling is what you do after you cleaned your rifle, build is what you do when you check head spacing, fit all parts and make adjustments.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Meangreen this is an example of a horror story Upper receiver, no vice block barrel nut tool slipped under pressure.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Meangreen this is an example of a horror story Upper receiver, no vice block barrel nut tool slipped under pressure.
> View attachment 2771


Murphy's law. Always purchase the upper complete with bolt and bolt carrier complete.


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## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

get an ar while you can. I got my son the dpms oracle for 700 last month. we decked it out though. it comes in black. sig has a base rifle not the m400, but they have one for about 999 with really neat furniture. you may want to build one too I got a spikes lower for 99 dollars. and will fix it up with all my spare parts from fixing the ars for my kids and myself.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Also when considering an AR, one thing think about is availability. I got mine just before the panic. Windham at Cabela's for about $850. After Dec when the panic hit I saw the same items that sold for $800-1000 selling 4-7k. It's hard to predict the future but I would put nothing past this admin. Regardless of what some say around here, I happen to like mine.


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## taps50 (Sep 28, 2013)

Thank you all for you help and information. I think I am going to start on both, I might have to push the rifle back until November, but I will have it soon (if all goes well). I am also going to start building my BOB, I have finally selected my Bag (going to pick it up when I get paid Thursday) and then I will be getting some of the lower cost items until I can afford some of the higher price items. Thanks again for all your help.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Here is some food for thought...get the BOB. Then save a few dollars to go with what you didn't spend on a BOB and buy you a decent bolt action rifle. With that and a good scope...if everything goes to hell in a hand bag you can probably get you one of those AR's later if you really need one that bad. Now don't take that the wrong way now, in no way am I suggesting you break the law or anything immoral like that, Im just saying...you got options. Need something with more fire power than a bolt action? Get a lever action then. 6 in the tube and fairly quick action wise you can do some damage if you need to.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

When you decide whether you want an AK or AR, if you have problems finding one of quality for a good price because your local dealers are thieves, buy one from an out of state dealer like Buds and do a transfer through one of the local shops. It's very easy to do and you'll open up your options a lot.

2 very good, affordable options,

M10-762 Semi-Auto AK Style Rifle 7.62x39 $799.00 SHIPS FREE

STAG SA1 Right Hand A3 STD SAFETY $825.00 SHIPS FREE


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## pharmer14 (Oct 27, 2012)

Keep in mind everybody that this guy is talking about buying his second gun. While an AR might be nice, to become proficient with it, he'll likely consume a lot more out of his budget than he would a 22. 

Once again, fully love AR's. It's on my list for the next 8-10 months... but go with the BOB and a 22 first IMO.


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## shooter (Dec 25, 2012)

since you have a firearm, build out the BOB, then when you have some more money buy the AR ect. However also remeber you will want to buy some canned food water ect to keep you going either at you BOL or where you live.


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## taps50 (Sep 28, 2013)

Nachtjager said:


> Fuzzee has it spot on with his recomendation - the M&M M10 is the best bang-for-buck AK on the market right now - a Romanian-built AK with just enough parts to make it legal to sell here, and with the slight redesign of the rifle, it's lightweight and very user friendly - I love those guns.
> 
> You can also get great deals on these at gunbroker.com, which is just like ebay, except for guns. I've seen lightly used M10's selling lately for less than $700, and for what it's worth, you can't really hurt these things, so if they have a few hundred rounds fired through them, it's no big deal. Fuzzee is also spot-on in recommending you order your rifle over the web - my local gun shop charges me $20 to do transfers from out-of-state. You can buy a rifle from anywhere in the country, have it shipped to your local gun shop, and you don't even have to pay taxes on it - what could be better?
> 
> I second Fuzzee's idea, go with the M&M M10 - great little black rifle! ::redsnipe::


Ok so let me get this straight, if I buy an AR online I don't have to pay state or federal taxes? Earlier today I bought my BOB bag so I am going to start on both, I was able to sell my movie collection for a decent amount of money so I will be able to pick up the AR within month to month and a half.

I've been looking at an AR made by DPMS (Link below) would this be a good buy? or should I wait a bit and get one with iron sights already on it?

DPMS Panther SportICAL 556X45 16 inch Online Gun Store


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

taps50 said:


> Ok so let me get this straight, if I buy an AR online I don't have to pay state or federal taxes? Earlier today I bought my BOB bag so I am going to start on both, I was able to sell my movie collection for a decent amount of money so I will be able to pick up the AR within month to month and a half.
> 
> I've been looking at an AR made by DPMS (Link below) would this be a good buy? or should I wait a bit and get one with iron sights already on it?
> 
> DPMS Panther SportICAL 556X45 16 inch Online Gun Store


 I would not worry about sights. Chance are you will end up down the road with some type of red dot sight or a scope
Add some pop up sights to it you are ready.
Never forget AR's are barbie dolls for men you can dress them up endlessly. You will over time make some changes but it will serve you just fine as is.
Any weapon you order on line will have Transfer fees and back round check. Taxes it just depends some most State you are suppose to pay but they have not got every one in the system yet.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> I would not worry about sights. Chance are you will end up down the road with some type of red dot sight or a scope
> Add some pop up sights to it you are ready.
> *Never forget AR's are barbie dolls for men* you can dress them up endlessly. You will over time make some changes but it will serve you just fine as is.
> Any weapon you order on line will have Transfer fees and back round check. Taxes it just depends some most State you are suppose to pay but they have not got every one in the system yet.


Well said. Toys!

Forget the AR and buy a rifle. Of a caliber sufficient to be worth owning, and reliable enough to be used for more than plinking at paper targets.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

taps50 said:


> Ok so let me get this straight, if I buy an AR online I don't have to pay state or federal taxes? Earlier today I bought my BOB bag so I am going to start on both, I was able to sell my movie collection for a decent amount of money so I will be able to pick up the AR within month to month and a half.
> 
> I've been looking at an AR made by DPMS (Link below) would this be a good buy? or should I wait a bit and get one with iron sights already on it?
> 
> DPMS Panther SportICAL 556X45 16 inch Online Gun Store


Yes, when you buy a firearm out of state and transfer it through a FFL in your state you don't pay tax on it. Same as when you buy something from any dealer not in your state like a backpack or knife. You pay shipping. The government is always getting it's money of course, it's just paid in other taxes.

I suggest not getting a DPMS. In my years of owning and shooting AR's the DPMS's are some of the lowest quality AR's around. They also use cheaper, weaker aluminum for receivers than 7075 T6 which has been standard spec for M16, M4 and AR rifles since the beginning because it's a very high tensile strength aluminum. Of all the parts I've used over the years DPMS's are some of the worst machined too. There are lots of great AR's out there for the money. Figure out what you want in features of the rifle and we'll help you find a good deal. Features like a railed front block or traditional winged steel front sight block. Carbine length gas system or mid length or rifle length? Polymer handguard or railed? Direct impingement or piston? And what price point. The Stags are some of the best bangs for the buck in quality and price around too, but there are some great AR's out there for similar prices. I'd take a Delton anyday before a DPMS for instance.

Buy Del-Ton at BudsGunShop


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

That video makes me hungry.



:mrgreen:


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I get tired of hearing how not having a"military style" AK or AR will be such a disadvantage in a SHTF event. Before Viet Nam the main battle rifle was a bolt action medium bore rifle and they served well in many conflicts. The Afghan rebels fought the Soviet military with antique bolt action rifles from the first world war and did very well in their guerrilla war against them. The bolt action rifle does require the shooter to actually aim before firing but you go through a lot less ammo that way. If you plan on fighting off large groups of people you are in a no-win situation because even with a fully auto weapon your chances of survival are statistically low. 

If you are fighting in close quarters then you have already made a mistake that is likely to kill you. If you have multiple fronts it is better to fall back to a position that is more defensible rather than spray and pray your limited ammo in an attempt to survive. Modern military weapons are designed to wound an enemy by using light weight and under-powered ammunition at close to moderate ranges. If you are alone in a fight against multiple attackers you are more likely to lose - another mistake that will get you killed.

I am in a position where I can know that someone is on my land long before an AR or AK would be effective as a means to stop them. I have little use for a semi-auto carbine, even though I do have one. My rifles can easily take out an intruder at 25 - 300 yards, my shotguns can handle anything out to 40 yards easily, and my pistols can handle intruders to beyond the range of my shotguns. I have fired my "military style" MBR at 100 and 200 yards and as a result I would limit its use to inside 100 yards. It is neither as accurate nor as capable my other weapons. The only "advantage" it has is the ability to fire more rounds, quicker, than other guns in my arsenal. The lack of accuracy more than makes up for the "fire-power" which is lower than that of a 30-30 at the same ranges.

If I was living in a city (I was and moved) then there might be a reason to have an AR but at those ranges I have pistols that will put a hole in 3/8" steel plates out to 75 yards. (3 shots fired at a 6" swinging gong at 75 yards without making it swing) I believe that even the best body armor would not fully protect a man hit with such a round. As for shooting at 400 yards, I have seen many shooters attempt it with their hunting rifles only to hit the ground in front of the target. Shooting at ranges beyond 300 yards takes a great deal of skill, practice, and a measure of luck. I do have guns that are capable out to 1000 yards but I am not. I have fired two of my rifles at 600 yards and get 3-4" five shot groups but I don't consider that an acceptable level of accuracy for reliable kills at that range. There are those who can shoot better than I but they are using custom made guns and are a lot younger than I.

It is rarely the weapon used that wins a battle - it is the mind of the individual that makes the difference.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

I think there are some intelligent enough people here to know when their badly outgunned, a group of people is too much to handle and it's time to evade. But the reality is this is very much a semi and fully automatic world now. More people have them and there standard in police and military forces. Nothing replaces tactics and skill, but even with bad tactics and no skill a semi or fully automatic gives that person a much better chance of dealing with a fight than a slower loading, less capacity weapon. Add in a skilled shooter with a mind and skill for ambush, flanking, silent moving, taking advantage of opportunities, a predator instinct, aggressive handling and intelligence to read an opponent and wait for the moment to strike and that person can take out more people than you'd think with that semi or fully automatic weapon before they knew what hit them. If that wasn't the case we'd have a lot more dead soldiers. It's a persons choice though. Use what you like and use best. But that doesn't mean you won't find yourself on the ground shot the hell up. Semi and fully automatic weapons give the advantage of being able to fire off more rounds quicker. And it is an advantage. One I'll take.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

What do you do when you have run through the 10000 rounds you stockpiled? That's when the rapid fire capability really tells the story.

I prefer one shot - one kill. I figure there is little likelihood that I will be fighting off a group of armed invaders that are close enough to be a danger.


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## Doommaker (Sep 12, 2013)

ARs are like Chevys. They will always crap out on you, just a question of where and when. And the people who like them have endless excuses.


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## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

walmart has a small bug out for 2 for 3 days. 35.00 home depot carries this too. also they have a large one for 75.00 for families or more days. they have websites of prepper bags already put together. I liked putting mine together. theres plenty of sites out there that can get you what you need at a good price budk has great prices on prepper things!


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

One thing I rarely hear mentioned in these discussions is the value of suppressive fire, either to break contact or allow your buddies to flank. As an ex-tanker, the idea of first round kills has been so drilled into my skull that rapid area fire seems like heresy, but it does have its uses. Obviously, if you have them pinned down, they can't effectively return fire, and this is where the higher capacity and rate of fire of a good semi-auto with a 30 round magazine really starts looking good. As far as I am concerned, it just adds another tool to your toolbox.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The military has the logistics to bring ammo to the fighters but in a SHTF event you will not have that option. I keep hearing about "military style" tactics but we are not the military and we don't have the same logistical support. You will only have the ammo that you have on hand or are able to carry. I doubt there will any time when "suppression" fire will be a real choice. In a man-on-man gunfight it is rarely the guy with the most firepower that wins it is the guy who is the most accurate that wins. I visit a local range and see the guys with their AR's and Glocks and I can out-shoot most of them with a revolver at any range from 20 feet to 100 yards. 

Using "battle" tactics in any civilian event is only going to waste your ammunition to the point where you won't have any. If you think you will be in a firefight with 10 people or 50 people coming in on you, I believe you are mistaken. In the recent past we have seen a few of this kind of event and they are scattered groups of small numbers of people and loan snipers who are targeting the helpless and lost.

You see it takes a great deal of planning and logistics to feed, clothe, and arm even a small group of fighters and there are limits to what is available to all sides. That is why we prep. Criminals and looters don't prep and living from moment to moment is a sure road to illness and death.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

Tactics are tactics Paul, regardless of it being in a civilian domain. However you slice the pie. Most these days use the rifles mentioned because there the most capable and have various logistical points. People here plan on supporting the weapons they have just as you. But the ability for fast, aggressive attack is there on multiple levels and dealing with them with a bolt action or other slow loading firearm does nothing but put you at a disadvantage. I've seen people with all kinds of firearms that can shoot and all kinds that can't. There are many out there that can shoot and have solid training and tactics and their the ones to worry about most if their on the opposite side of your line. No offense, but you just don't seem to know how fast things can move and how good some people are. And that their throughout our society.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Nachtjager said:


> With due respect Paul, you're last point about the ammo is a bit silly. Hitler had the same misgivings about the MP44 and that is the exact reason the world's first "assault rifle" didn't go into full production in 1943 and replace the K98 Mauser - Hitler was convinced soldiers would waste too much ammunition with a weapon that held thirty rounds. Had Speer and the arms production board had their way, they would've put the rifle into mainstream production in mid-1943, so by early 1944, a large part of the Wehrmacht would've been equipped with the MP44 instead of the five-shot bolt-action Mauser. Honestly, how much of a difference would that have made in the war? Obviously the allies still would've won because of the total air superiority, but the casualties on the ground would've been astronomically increased and that rifle, by itself, likely would've added six months or more to the conflict.
> 
> I would never recommend any high capacity AR or AK for ranges past 100 yards, that's not what they're built for. For ranges past that, yes, you need a longer range rifle, preferably in .308 or a larger caliber. However, once somebody's on your property or within 100 yards, whomever is carrying the most rounds and can get those rounds delivered quicker has a decided advantage. A guy with a Glock 17 is going to beat a guy with a Colt Peacemaker - a guy with an AK is going to beat a guy with a Mosin-Nagant - it's just simple mathematics. While you're reloading, he's going to advance and blow you away.
> 
> ...


The way I figure it, one shot from a Colt Peacemaker is enought to stop just about anyone except John Wayne.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

I own semi autos and can see the benefits of having one yet don't take much comfort from the benefit they provide.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

Seneca said:


> I own semi autos and can see the benefits of having one yet don't take much comfort from the benefit they provide.


Best reminder for me has been watching the guy in the SUV get attacked by 20 bikers on the news every day lately. I'd like to think things would have went a little differently had I been in that truck when they busted out the window...


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I am just saying that the tactics one uses must fit the circumstances. Having an AR-15 to "lay down suppression fire" against a group of thugs that have been going from house to house plundering what they find means that you have not been attentive to a building situation or decided to sleep through the warnings that were present.

Why would they pick your position to "sneak up on" unless you have been showing off what you have and the location you have it?

Where I am I will have lots of notice because they will be eaten by two black mouth curs before they get within 100 yards of my home. If they are very professional and manage to kill the dogs then they have to cover that large expanse of "open" ground to get to me. Meanwhile I have been alerted and can pick them off where they stand or where they are trapped. How many "raiders" are you expecting to sneak up on you? I can easily kill ten men in the 100 yard dash to my home with my "old bolt action" rifle.

I am not stupid enough to rely on myself with a gun to stop intruders. There are any number of ways to implement "pit", "leg hold" and "rake" traps without them showing. Even high tech won't show a person where they can or cannot step. This kind of trap is demoralizing to say the least and a lot more inhumane than a bullet to the brain. The traps can be "armed" remotely so that they will only trigger under specific conditions and be absolutely safe the rest of the time.

I still insist that relying on "military tactics" will only work if you get resupplied on a regular basis.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

I had to depend on my weapon more than once. Unless I am the one on high ground 400-600 meters away providing over watch I want my M4 .
On this side of the uniform the AR . You are never going to beat a semi auto when it gets bad with any bolt , lever or pump.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I guess my point is that you shouldn't let it get that bad in the first place. We will not be in the military against a military adversary. We will likely be fighting unprepared thugs who are not used to dealing with resistance.


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## PrepperLite (May 8, 2013)

PaulS said:


> I guess my point is that you shouldn't let it get that bad in the first place. We will not be in the military against a military adversary. We will likely be fighting unprepared thugs who are not used to dealing with resistance.


Plans fail, or succeed and still things change. The weapon you use all depends on your situation. Yes your bolt action may be superior over an open field, but that is far the case in an urban environment.

As for the thugs I think it is a lethal error in underestimating your adversary. I live/am stationed in the Hampton Roads area, which has the highest military concentration in the US. While the majority I would say of military arn't doing tactical operations, clearing houses, or have the ability to have any kind of situational awareness it would be an error to label the majority of the population "unprepared thugs who are not used to dealing with resistance" (even though Norfolk is just down the road, ha).

To get back to the OP, B.O.B. in my opinion. You already have a weapon and while if SHTF before you got both the rifle would be good for brute force range the ideology of taking things from others (which is what you will have to do to survive) will work but has very high risk.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

If you've got the open space and distance the bolt action is capable, but when you don't you're at a big disadvantage. And every second between shots those adversaries get closer. If you miss one, follow up shots give the others more time for cover and return fire. If it's what you want though, than it's your choice. Accuracy and precision shooting comes through focused effort and practice. Two shooters though, both skilled and accurate with their weapons, one with a bolt action and the other with a semi, adversaries coming at them as fast as they can, firing from different spots as they advance, the shooter with the semi is likely going to be able to take out more adversaries because of the speed in followups and fire he can put on a adversary/ies.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

BigCheeseStick said:


> Unfortunately yes. I also shot "expert" with one 5 out of 6 times, and even currently own an AR (DPMS LR-308) that I've fine tuned and modified enough to feel it almost qualify as "reliable" as long as I keep a baggy of spare parts handy _like ALL AR owners should_. The whole AR platform is a weapon flawed from one end to the other in every possible aspect (pick a part, almost EVERY part). The _ONLY_ reason for it's acceptance is Robert McNamara took one of the greatest pay offs of military history to push it through. The reason for it being trendy is obvious. "It's what the military uses, it's whats in all the movies. I wanna be a hero just like them!" :-?
> 
> I hate seeing good people get played for a sucker buying into a marketing trend. Spending hard earned money for a weapon they might one day trust their lives to only to find out to late what they _really_ bought.


All the above is true but the AR of today is a far cry from what was introduced in the jungles of Vietnam. I carry an M4 at work and I have full confidence in the platform.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Don't you think you're combining multiple soldiers into one? There is no perfect weapon and you can only carry one long arm so conditions dictate the weapon but conditions change. In my opinion if the target (person) is at such a far range that a bolt gun is needed, are they really a threat? In a war enemies are quickly determined by uniform, weapon, or action, in a WTSHT this may not be so cut and dry. We would like to have all options of an auto, bolt, ect but this isn't realistic nor practical. A person must be proficient and comfortable with their weapon and must have the established muscle memory to efficiently use their weapon in a life or death situation. 
When I work, I tend to take an M4 into the field during day time hours because of the increased range given by a rifle and the full auto capability works well for close in fights that might happen in the canyons and arroyos. At night I take a 870 shotgun because in the dark even with NVG, range is limited and targets are obscured. I like the large pattern of buck to increase my chances of a hit. Now add a bullet resistant vest, gun belt with radio, secondary weapons, ammo, water, snacks,NVG's, ect your not going to be carrying multiple long arms. Now add someone working with me and their long arm, now we have a force to recon with. First rule of a gun fight is bring lots of friends with guns. I add bring lots of friends with different types of guns to cover every situation.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Prioritize your needs. My first buy would be some type of water filter. My second would be a camelbak (the modular acu molle II gets my praises) to carry water. I might then go for some olive oil, a little honey, and some hardtack. THe next items depend on climate, however a good camo tarp such as the marpat tarp might be good. I would then start buying essentials of the ECWS system. Particularly the level 6 cold/wet jacket, and a good pair of equivolent pants - the commercial varients may be required as you may not legally be able to use the authentic military stuff. At the very least it would be the cold/wet/wind stuff along with level 2 silkweights. I'd also get a cheap bugnet or two so one can be used for ghillieing. Other items like chapstick and a essentials first aid kit could be considered. Personally if I had to have a bugoutweapon it would be a scorpion variant as legal or a pistol. Up here in Ontario though it is very impractical for someone in the middle of nowhere to have any of the "good prepper guns" as they are either restricted or prohibited, handguns are pretty much a waste of time if you need to drive 3 hours each way to shoot one. 6 hours of driving for a little shooting is a little absurd. I would not be concerned about a getting the ar-15 unless you plan on being tactical or defending a bugout location. In general you should be able to mount defences for low cost at a bug out location that will remove the need for a rifle.. and practically you may be better off with a shotgun that has capacity for multiple rounds, and could also be sawed off in an urban setting. However unless you are the sniper going into an urban area will be not worth the benefits. I would suggest considering joining your local military national gaurd or militia for your combat weapons training. There will be organized groups and it is far more practical to invest in defences and close in weapons because it is I think unlikely you would be facing a solitary attacker, as most would be put off by defences especially visible defences, barbed wire, gating, beware of dog, electric fencing, very loud sirens, etc.. I would take body armour before a rifle as engagement is the last thing someone wants in a world without medical care. A good sniper rifle such as a reminington will get you as far as a battle rifle. IMO. However I am not an expert armourer. There are way better close in defences than an AR. IMO they are better for medium range engagements. You want something that can be converted over to semiauto and full autofire with ease. The key of close in is to have enough rounds in short burst mode to penetrate whatever armour you want, that means you either need heavy hitting elephant ammo. It would probably be better off to improvise claymores out of tin cans blackpowder and ballbearings. 

I'm not sure what you are prepping for but getting into gunfights would be the absolute last thing on my list of things to do as a prepper.

A very powerful flashlight will probably serve you better for hunting... that and a high draw crossbow. 

It all depends on locality. 

But you opt for an AR- I suggest you join a militia or prepper group because it doesn't make much sense as a one off weapon in a world blows up scenario imo. But do educate me in how I am wrong, kindly post a link to the reasons why the AR-15 will save your life thread.

I want nice big rounds that will put holes through an inch or two of steel. find that and get it. 

It would help to know exactly what type of scenarios you want a gun for. Just remember it is easier to be shot then to shoot someone when there are more guns in America than Americans

If you plan on going crack I suggest joining your local elite special forces or swat team.



The key is you don't want to go out.. you want to have what you need inside. You want a bug out vehicle like an RV that can get you to point B location preferably where you won't be seen. If hell is ongoing for more than two months supply of food.. you have bigger problems to worry about than a rifle.. at that point if you are not part of an organized prefailure organization you are in something so deep an ar is not going to help and the weight will not be worth the trouble... Bear in mind.. many different scenarios will effect things. Whether it is small scale or large scale will effect effectiveness. IMO having a handgun should prepare you for any type of situation you will be in. I don't know where you are at, so what will be best for prepping hunting etc.. in 99% of the cases it is probably a crossbow.

however there are scenarios it could be helpful, and it is one of the best selection you can make in terms of available parts.


Join a group if posible, and you should plan with a group and determine your group resources. Using common guns may be a benefit for ammo interchange in event of problems but also as a group having the weapons to work effectively as a squad will also be of use.

Your group may opt for ak74 over ar15, it depends on your local laws.. but I would not say the ar-15 is the best hunting weapon available. I know america loves the m-16 because it was a service weapon.. but think it over first and group up. The m-14 is an option up in Canada but seriously as a prepper gun, I'm not totally convinced due to its weight.. I'm not turned off on it either. If it was full auto machine varient maybe sure no need to aim just point and click.. but carying around a 10lb gun is a pain in the but.

The ideal prepper weapon is something you can mount a barrel onto but needn't have a barrel, and is light and compact with a high rate of as accurate as possible fire if for mobile bug outs. Think composite ingram, uzi, etc.. but in elephant round size.

If they were lighter the .50bmg sniper rifles like the m107s would be where it was at. With this in mind unless you are penthouse or RV forget about the BMG...

if you have a house set up defences.. the key is not being visible, having suprise.. this means remote monitoring and remote activation of defences. This could mean door traps blocking windows. missing floors/trap floors with pungee under neat... clear wire closelines etc..

If outside get camo and take the sniper qualification course if you arn't a sniper chances are you arn't inching and if you can see them it is probably too late or the wild wild west.


Nothing i mean nothing will repel an assaulter better than good defences at a hardened position where you do not need to be exposed to be lethal..

This could be as simple as high powered lights in a dark hallway with a false floor and a gas canister release piping and a scentered air flow or even chlorine gas. 

Lots of people will not get out of a 15 ft pit, esspecially if they fall onto spikes or into live electrical wiring.

read up on guerrilla war.. vietnam is a good source.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Get the AR or at the very least get a quality stripped Lower and Upper and build what your own. LRB LMT RRA all have quality Uppers/lowers




















1st photo 6 shots at 300 yards 
2nd photo 3 shait a 200 yards 
3rd photo 5 shots a 100 yards

AR 15 in 6.5 Grendel

On your limited budget I would build


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