# ARDF and Communication when SHTF



## Tylerzee (Aug 6, 2020)

Hi guys, I’m new here. This is my first post. This has been bugging me for a while now. So you can use DMR equipped radios to encrypt your voice but what about ARDF or fox hunts? If your local hammers can do fox hunts for fun, what happens when shtf and we have to protect our comms from being outed or tracked? Serious question, can’t find answers anywhere.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Limit transmissions. Change frequencies often.


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## Tylerzee (Aug 6, 2020)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Limit transmissions. Change frequencies often.


Ahh, ok, any idea how long it takes these people to trace a transmission? Not just local ham radio groups but the fcc for example?


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Tylerzee said:


> Ahh, ok, any idea how long it takes these people to trace a transmission? Not just local ham radio groups but the fcc for example?


Depends on how sophisticated their tracking setup is.


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## Tylerzee (Aug 6, 2020)

[/QUOTE]Depends on how sophisticated their tracking setup is.[/QUOTE]

And that's what I'm wondering. If say big brother is tracking you don't you think they'd have a more sophisticated set up and have the ability to track you quickly? If so, is there a work around for that?


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

> And that's what I'm wondering. If say big brother is tracking you don't you think they'd have a more sophisticated set up and have the ability to track you quickly? If so, is there a work around for that?


Big brother is extremely well-funded (just think of the taxes you pay). The only true fool-proof work-around is to not use radios.


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## Tylerzee (Aug 6, 2020)

Back Pack Hack said:


> > And that's what I'm wondering. If say big brother is tracking you don't you think they'd have a more sophisticated set up and have the ability to track you quickly? If so, is there a work around for that?
> 
> 
> Big brother is extremely well-funded (just think of the taxes you pay). The only true fool-proof work-around is to not use radios.


That's the scary part. We need to be able to communicate from a distance. No internet, and no work around for radios? There has to be another way, but what? This may sound stupid, but it's going to bug the hell out of me.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Tylerzee said:


> That's the scary part. We need to be able to communicate from a distance. No internet, and no work around for radios? There has to be another way, but what? This may sound stupid, but it's going to bug the hell out of me.


The old days are over. Transmit and they'll know where you are.

As BPH said, limit transmissions. Use code that makes you sound harmless. Change communication times every day or they'll know what's up.


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## Tylerzee (Aug 6, 2020)

Denton said:


> Tylerzee said:
> 
> 
> > That's the scary part. We need to be able to communicate from a distance. No internet, and no work around for radios? There has to be another way, but what? This may sound stupid, but it's going to bug the hell out of me.
> ...


Well my next question is, do dmr repeaters require internet?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Tylerzee said:


> Well my next question is, do dmr repeaters require internet?


This should help you.

https://www.raqi.ca/~ve2rae/dmr/Amateur_Radio_Guide_to_DMR.pdf


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Tylerzee said:


> Ahh, ok, any idea how long it takes these people to trace a transmission? Not just local ham radio groups but the fcc for example?


If it is the feds, before you speak after hitting the x-mit key.

Back in the 70s and 80s, FAA control towers could DF you when you hit the key,

but that was on a given frequency of the tower. I know, I used it one time to save my bacon.

They gave me a DF steer to the runway, after 10 hours of flying up the coast, half gallon of gas left when landed, in one tank.

Today with spectrum analyzers able to cover everything in a second and coupled to a DF array your are fried.

There is no rotating an antenna for a DF steer, it is done electronically between the array elements.

Encrypted burst transmissions are the only course.

Even a regular conversation between to people can contain a burst if done right and may not be detected.

I think @Denton can attest to this.:tango_face_wink:


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## Tylerzee (Aug 6, 2020)

SOCOM42 said:


> Tylerzee said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh, ok, any idea how long it takes these people to trace a transmission? Not just local ham radio groups but the fcc for example?
> ...


What is a burst? I'm very new to all of this, I'm just trying to plan ahead and learn though.

I've also read that pdf above before posting this thread, I don't fully understand it because I'm still learning.. lol does a dmr repeater require an internet connection? Yes or no is what I'm looking for because I'm wondering if we could use dmr radios over a repeater when shtf.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Tylerzee said:


> What is a burst? I'm very new to all of this, I'm just trying to plan ahead and learn though.
> 
> I've also read that pdf above before posting this thread, I don't fully understand it because I'm still learning.. lol does a dmr repeater require an internet connection? Yes or no is what I'm looking for because I'm wondering if we could use dmr radios over a repeater when shtf.


A repeater is just that signal in on one freq. and out on another.

They can use a internet connection for long long jumps to another internet connection, but no for the most part.

The best bet it for using one for extended range locally, their antennas and associated hardware is usually on hill or a tower of sorts.

When on, I use three 2 meter repeaters, with 5 watts I can trigger the furthest which 25 miles away and behind a hill.

Using 50 watts I can enter one that is 120 miles away using a Yag antenna on a rotor.

Can get to NYC through that one.


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## Tylerzee (Aug 6, 2020)

SOCOM42 said:


> Tylerzee said:
> 
> 
> > What is a burst? I'm very new to all of this, I'm just trying to plan ahead and learn though.
> ...


Ohh, ok, I have a ton of learning to do.. I'm going to do one of the course and try to get licensed.. what is a burst though?


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Burst is the compression of voice or data and transmit the whole thing in one second.

It would run at say 10x-30x normal speed and encrypted, very hard to locate and record.

You would have to know the exact frequency and time to run a high speed recorder to capture it.

If inserted into normal traffic it would sound like a little bit of static.

SF have used it a lot on covert missions to report to base.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Probably the easiest way to avoid triangulation is to understand how far away you can be heard by the receivers. Example HF communication travel extremely far...even bouncing of the Ionosphere to go halfway around the world on as little as 1/4 watt (if your really good).

higher frequencies like VHF and UHF, microwave etc get absorbed very quickly by the earth and vegetation and pass through the ionosphere without being reflected.

So you have to use a varied approach to avoidance.....Its hard to localize HF NVIS transmission outside of 30 miles without ionosphere sounding and a good algorithm and using Interferometric antennas. Aircrafts can aid in this however.

PTT including DMR using VHF and UHF typically fall off after a few kilometers, which is why you have repeater. so they would be good for local comms as long as you do not transmit often or from the same locations.

People forget about wired communications.......if you have camp like set up with observation posts etc....then I would buy some 2 strand wire (coated) and run that to all the locations I needed. Then using standard telephones handsets ,wire them up, using a battery to power a light or bell to signal an incoming call. This can easily be made into a switchboard apparatus, allowing calls to go in and out and be patched together as needed.

This can effectively be done over great distances...as seen historically with the telegraph. This can allow for coordinated interference and deception in the event that detection and DF'ing is suspected. .


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

If it really a SHTF event, I doubt the feds will really be worried about a few of us. If you belong to a group 
with a bunch of hams, put together a list of frequencies and times to meet up.I put together a list of 124 
frequencies  and a rotating time of day for get togethers on the radio. It's not perfect but it can help.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Old SF Guy said:


> Probably the easiest way to avoid triangulation is to understand how far away you can be heard by the receivers. Example HF communication travel extremely far...even bouncing of the Ionosphere to go halfway around the world on as little as 1/4 watt (if your really good).
> 
> higher frequencies like VHF and UHF, microwave etc get absorbed very quickly by the earth and vegetation and pass through the ionosphere without being reflected.
> 
> ...


This is why I have a dozen TA-312's and a SB-22 switchboard.

With 15 miles of air dispensable wire, oh also a couple pairs of Ta-1's


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## Tylerzee (Aug 6, 2020)

I love this forum, you learn some really interesting things haha kind of cool how it all works.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Tylerzee said:


> I love this forum, you learn some really interesting things haha kind of cool how it all works.


What's really cool is how all the younger less experience preppers can come here and share the details about themselves in an anonymous forum....with little to no risk that the more experienced, savvy preppers would use anything shared here to try to take stuff away from the new preppers in a SHTF....

Hey what region are you from anyway?:vs_worry:


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Old SF Guy said:


> What's really cool is how all the younger less experience preppers can come here and share the details about themselves in an anonymous forum....with little to no risk that the more experienced, savvy preppers would use anything shared here to try to take stuff away from the new preppers in a SHTF....
> 
> Hey what region are you from anyway?:vs_worry:


Aw... what could someone possibly have that you would go to get? 
You know you'll find what you need along the way. :vs_cool:


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

MountainGirl said:


> Aw... what could someone possibly have that you would go to get?
> You know you'll find what you need along the way. :vs_cool:


Well hello! Nice to see you. Hope all is well!


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Annie said:


> Well hello! Nice to see you. Hope all is well!


Fine and dandy, Annie! Nice to see you too! :vs_wave:


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