# A question of morality



## Disturbed12404 (Apr 23, 2015)

So I had read "Survivors" By James Wesley Rawles a few weeks ago and this part has been in my mind for the longest time, I am curious about the other feelings on it. 

At one part of this book, the survivors see two people coming up their compound driveway, So they stage an ambush. Once they ambush the people and go through their stuff they find some pretty....gross. Things, one guy loses his temper and blows the two guys away. Whatever. 

Now they have the supplies from these travelers. A few firearms of value, some food and a whole lot of Looted Jewelry. 

Assuming that everything these people had on them was looted they believed it was unrighteous to claim it as their own. So instead the donated everything to a local church. 

one of the characters quoted something like "Taking what has been looted is one step above the deed itself"

Where do you all stand on this? There are perfectly good supplies that you need, but because they were looted by someone else and happen to fall in your lap. It is not right to take advantage of this? 

Maybe I am a terrible person but, The food and guns I'd take. The jewelry to me would just be unnecessary weight.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I can't help other people unless I survive. If forced to take a life in self defense, anything they are carrying becomes mine.

Leaving items on the bodies won't get those items back to their rightful owners, so I see little point in this approach. And I won't spend any time or effort trying to locate the original owners either. I might show the items to some of the locals in a militia meeting or whatever, and if someone lays claim to them, they can have them, but that would be the extent of my trying to return anything.

If it comes down to a dog eat dog reality, I intend to be the dog that eats.

Edited to add:

If you found a sunken Spanish treasure ship, would you feel morally obligated to return the treasure to Spain? Knowing they took it from the Mayans, for example, would you return it to the surviving Mayan peoples? I wouldn't, though I might give them a portion of it back. The reason is that it took me time and effort to recover it, and such undertakings aren't without risk. If I work and take a risk, I need to be rewarded for it in this kind of circumstance.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

We never know what we will do until it comes down to that point of doing it. It has been shown may times in the past that those who are not able to do what is necessary will pay for it later down the road. Letting bad people go free will not change them to do good later, they will just take from others again that are not willing to fight / kill when that is what is called for. A good saying is so true "all it takes for evil to thrive is for good people to do nothing".


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

to loot the already dead from other means besides myself yup.
to set up an ambush for that sole purpose, nope.
to loot some idiots that are trying or planning to kill me and my own, yup
now at the BOL it is kind of mixed, and the most dangerous part it determining if you should blast em or trade with them. 
the problem with trading there is they know were you are.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

ekim said:


> We never know what we will do until it comes down to that point of doing it.


That is NOT TRUE... I KNOW based on my faith what I will do...


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

If you kill a robbery - Do the items he had now belong to you???

Now - if we are in a WROL situation and there is no way to find the owner...


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> That is NOT TRUE... I KNOW based on my faith what I will do...


As do I, but I am referring to the masses out there that are to stupid to know that what they allow will come back and bite them on the butt! Just look at the number of people that sat back during riots and watched their city / town, homes and lively hoods be destroyed. I have almost no pity / sorrow for most of those people / sheeple, as they are getting what they deserve, IMO. IMO, those that do nothing have no morals!


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> That is NOT TRUE... I KNOW based on my faith what I will do...


Easy to say when your children are not starving.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

jimb1972 said:


> Easy to say when your children are not starving.


No, he's pretty adamant about that not mattering.
This discussion has been had, at length.
If MM is anything, he's principled.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

jimb1972 said:


> Easy to say when your children are not starving.


So God is not God if my children are hungry???

Regardless, I will not steal, murder, lie, etc..in order to feed myself or my children

I will not risk hell to save myself, my wife, or my children...

If things are SO BAD - that I have to resort to acting like an animal and turn my back on my King in order to survive - All I would be doing would be putting off the inevitable in order to live a horrible existence a few more miserable days.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

After blowing them away, severing their heads and placing the severed, bloody head atop a Slippy-made Pike at the foot of my driveway...I guess pilfering whats in their pockets is some what irrelevant?

EDIT; As far as the jewelry goes, I'd give it all to the slaves who carry the shitbuckets. Might was well have them looking good wearing some bling if they are doing nothing but carrying buckets-o-crap all day everyday. Hey, I want everyone to know I treat my shitbucket slaves as good as the next guy.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

If you feel your faith is so perfect that it could never falter under any circumstance your arrogance is so great that it has failed already.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

jimb1972 said:


> If you feel your faith is so perfect that it could never falter under any circumstance your arrogance is so great that it has failed already.


Not so. faith need not be perfect but faith and love well practised will get you to heaven. That is more important to some than all else.


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## Disturbed12404 (Apr 23, 2015)

Slippy said:


> After blowing them away, severing their heads and placing the severed, bloody head atop a Slippy-made Pike at the foot of my driveway...I guess pilfering whats in their pockets is some what irrelevant?
> 
> EDIT; As far as the jewelry goes, I'd give it all to the slaves who carry the shitbuckets. Might was well have them looking good wearing some bling if they are doing nothing but carrying buckets-o-crap all day everyday. Hey, I want everyone to know I treat my shitbucket slaves as good as the next guy.


I LOL'd at work. loudly. It's a shame no one else here would appreciate the humor.

As far as my post goes im curious as to when it became so immoral. Doesn't it fall under "Spoils of war" or "Right by conquest" obviously this wouldn't apply in our day-to-day activities. But this is all under a WROL, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI... I think the rules of the game change slightly, no?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Morality should never change when it is based in faith and love.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

WARNING, SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you plan on reading the book and have not read it yet, SKIP THIS, IT'S A SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, if you are still with me...







The looters deserved to be blown away in a WROL situation, they were murdering cannibals who had obviously stolen the property from others. Those others were most likely dead, and even if they weren't there's no way to know who they are.

IMHO this is found property.

Those "eaters" had to die in a WROL situation, there's no other option. I have no problem with the choice the characters made in the book (including later giving the Mini-14 to a needy new group member but basically giving the rest to charity) but I would also have had no moral issue with them keeping the found stuff.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

ekim said:


> We never know what we will do until it comes down to that point of doing it.


Exactly, This is what I have said on more than one thread. Or words to that effect.
hunger and greed will do funny things to a man.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

IMO, religion and morals will get thrown out the door when the crap gets really deep. Guess you keep what you kill. The dead won't care. 

"NOW" you have a religious/moral problem with stealing "after" committing murder. How does giving the stuff to the needy justify the means in your gods eye??


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

There is a big difference between murder and killing some one. You can kill for defence of yourself or others but if you kill without respect and without the need to save others then it's murder.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

The OP question, to me, "A question of morality" relates to ethics. (I have not read the book by the way)

In America, an immoral behavior may be legal. This has been going on for quite a while. Perhaps every generation considers itself more "moral" than the following one.
Whatever. Maine-Marine has an excellent point in the the basis for his moral compass is in his relationship with God. We confound morality while we debate legality as if they are the same thing. They are not.

As I read the above comments there are three issues in play; ethics, morality and culture.
In culture, or a collective agreement of standards, social norms, language, which also embraces morals.
In morals, principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character, are also a basis for laws in the culture.
In ethics, is an application of morals toward others.

John C Maxwell was asked by CBS News to come on a news cast and address the problems with "business ethics" while the nation was hearing daily reports about the Enron scandal and MCI collapse. He declined, stating there is no such thing as "business ethics." He added you're either ethical or you are not.

Recently, the biker's Mohammed art show in Phoenix was not ethical but it was legal... Constitutionally. 

The drama of survival lends itself to clan-ish skirmishes. Culture is stripped away. Social norms are lost. Generations of dependency on a govt's declaration of acceptable behavior is replacing morality. Ethics are void without a moral core. Powers beyond the neighborhood are influencing... perhaps erasing ethics... our moral core as it affects how we treat others.

For me, IMHO, without a Bible and a close relationship with God, one can only mimic morality judgement. There will be an accountability for the actions that disrupt a culture, break the laws and induce fear vice trust. A moral people, (nation***), can survive that even if a moral person does not. For us who claim Christ as our King, we will be held accountable by Him for our behavior. 

While living in the Philippines for a short time, I learned to never reach for food with my left hand. That is the toilet hand. That was their culture. My ethic, born from my moral core, was to respect that culture. If not, I may have insulted or been held accountable for the behavior. 

Kauboy's right, morality discussed at length and has been a horse we've all beaten severely... and I think I just did again. 

Jewelry and art-work may be important to someone else I take beans and bullets for me and my family from any place without an owner.
"If there is no owner you're not stealing"

***
a nation in a biblical context is never a political border/region, it is a people, a culture who share a common belief or system.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

jimb1972 said:


> If you feel your faith is so perfect that it could never falter under any circumstance your arrogance is so great that it has failed already.


I feel sorry for you jimb1972, that you have never found faith worth living for and dying for.

The faithful and the faithless will all someday die anyway, . . . to sacrifice one's faith on the altar of survival is beyond a tragedy, . . . some other word so many times more horrible.

One example: "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country". He could have begged, pleaded, perhaps made a deal to live as a double agent, . . . he chose the high ground.

MM and I stand together on this idea.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

it's been a number of years since I read the book .... as I remember, the preppers didn't ambush them ... the perimeter guards killed them when the group representative was threatened after the initial contact on the road .... they found out about the cannibalism afterwards .... I thought they kept the guns and a few other things .... I'll look over the passage to refresh the memory ...


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

PaulS said:


> There is a big difference between murder and killing some one. You can kill for defence of yourself or others but if you kill without respect and without the need to save others then it's murder.


But do not think that killing another human being, no matter how right or justified at the time, will not bother you later.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> I feel sorry for you jimb1972, that you have never found faith worth living for and dying for.
> 
> The faithful and the faithless will all someday die anyway, . . . to sacrifice one's faith on the altar of survival is beyond a tragedy, . . . some other word so many times more horrible.
> 
> ...


Ah, but you are mistaken. I have faith, but realize that I am flawed as are all. While it is very unlikely I would steal for any reason I recognize my weakness and seek to overcome it. I will not say I would never fail in my faith when history shows us that everyone does at some point, even the apostles failed so I would argue a personal relationship is not a guarantee of perfection.
If you have ever been short on food and sleep you will know the mind can play tricks on you and cause you to act in ways you would not normally.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

When you have but seconds to decide and your life / family lives are on the line then you had better have made your mind up before hand as that is not the time to start making moral judgements, especially as in the SHTF situation in the JWR book or anytime after the shtf. Be it a simple home invasion, carjacking, local riot what ever. As RPD said it will most likely haunt you forever, unless you wavered and are dead, then it won't matter to you at all, I would guess.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Take weapons and food. leave the jewelry. The dead won't need it and the ones they took it from are beyond needing it as well. What's done is done and move on.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

jimb1972 said:


> If you feel your faith is so perfect that it could never falter under any circumstance your arrogance is so great that it has failed already.


I am guessing your comment is aimed at me... I falter all the time, I get mad, I swear, I look with lust at women, I commit murder in my heart - all of these are sins..

Paul said he was the chief sinner... He still did things he was not supposed to do..yet he still went to Rome even though he was going to be killed

What he did not do and what I will not do is turn my back on trusting Jesus.... I will not spare myself (for this brief time on earth) so that it would cause me to end up in Hell for eternity

In order to be arrogant I would have to view myself as having value above others...The fact that I refuse to kill others to feed myself or my family should tell yu that I view others and my God as more important then myself


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Chipper said:


> IMO, religion and morals will get thrown out the door when the crap gets really deep.


100% correct - because most peoples religion and morals are not even skin deep.

the latest PEW Poll showed that 68% of Americans are Christian.... Or I should say 68% said they were Christian - of course being christian to many means their parents went to church or they go to church twice a year.... (The real number is about 10%+-)

For me you are only a Christian if you surrender to Jesus and are being a doer of the word not just a hearer

There is an old story about a church in Russia where three Russian soldiers ran inside with AK-47's and said.... If you are not a Christian get out NOW!!!! Pointing their rifles around the room at people - about 80% of the folks left...the soldiers went over and barred the door, leaned their rifles against the wall and said..."OK, now lets worship!"

There is coming a time...many will fall away


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> Take weapons and food. leave the jewelry. The dead won't need it and the ones they took it from are beyond needing it as well. What's done is done and move on.


As I read this I thought... leave the gun, take the cannoli


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

If they didn't want me to have it, then they shouldn't have brought it with them when they came to die. Sometimes this is how the Lord provides for his flock.

If I can identify the rightful owner, it goes back to them or their heirs - even if I need it. If there is no clear ownership, and I need it, then its mine. Possession is 9/10ths of the law under the best circumstances. If I don't need it, it will go to the common good. Others may need it.

But by being generous with the spoils you build allies.


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## nztedson (Jan 23, 2015)

CWOLDOJAX said:


> The OP question, to me, "A question of morality" relates to ethics. (I have not read the book by the way)
> 
> In America, an immoral behavior may be legal. This has been going on for quite a while. Perhaps every generation considers itself more "moral" than the following one.
> Whatever. Maine-Marine has an excellent point in the the basis for his moral compass is in his relationship with God. We confound morality while we debate legality as if they are the same thing. They are not.
> ...


I would have thought stealing was taking without asking


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> As I read this I thought... leave the gun, take the cannoli


Yea. Thought of that as well.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

nztedson said:


> I would have thought stealing was taking without asking


If there's no owner, who do you ask?


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## nztedson (Jan 23, 2015)

CWOLDOJAX said:


> If there's no owner, who do you ask?


Fair call


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Remember the given situation. There is no way of returning the items that they had to the original owners and you would have no way of even knowing if the guns and ammo belonged to the two men they executed or not. I do not see how there is any question of morality or not by keeping the items or not. They did not execute the two men to get their supplies, but because the two men where killing children for food (read the book). 

In such a situation IMO the real "sin" would be to get rid or things that might help your family survive such as weapons and ammunition.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

We lived in Oklahoma 20 years ago. I considered life there to be as good as it was in Iowa. Salt-of-the-earth folks who watched over each other.

My son and I were at a store in Norman, OK, when we both saw a man drop some change from his pocket while making his purchase.
I instructed my son to help the man recover his money and I helped too. Polite replies were exchanged, and life goes on. 
We lived in Oklahoma, I worked at Tinker AFB when the federal building was bombed. I knew a guy who died in that bombing, I met with him about twice a month concerning the background checks on our sailors. Folks in our church lost loved ones. We all came together.
Good people died - senseless, but the community stayed strong and nurturing.

A few years later, my daughter went on a mission-trip to Mexico with our church's high school youth group. They helped to build a church in Culiacan, near the center of the Sinaloa Cartel territory (which I was unaware of until later). She became friends with an orphaned girl who visited the make-shift church. My daughter estimated that the girl was between 4-6 years old. The girl's only possessions were a Tupperware mixing bowl and the t-shirt, shorts, no skivvies. The bowl was her life-line. she washed her clothes in it, begged for food with it, covered her head when it rained with it. One day some of the other kids wrestled her down took her bowl and threw it down the side of a canyon next to the church. My daughter bought a set of plastic bowls for her and the pastor lets her sleep in the church next to her new bowls. Who knows. the girl may be dead, or teaching, or helping others now

Two different cultures. One void of morals and ethics... at child's level.
Which culture do you want to live in? You need to know before SHTF. 
Clearly, based on the comments on this thread, one can easily see which culture others prefer...
"As for me and my *house*, we will serve the Lord" - When Johua spoke these words, "house" included more than family under your roof, it included servants, and those you felt responsible for.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

jimb1972 said:


> Ah, but you are mistaken. I have faith, but realize that I am flawed as are all. While it is very unlikely I would steal for any reason I recognize my weakness and seek to overcome it. I will not say I would never fail in my faith when history shows us that everyone does at some point, even the apostles failed so I would argue a personal relationship is not a guarantee of perfection.
> If you have ever been short on food and sleep you will know the mind can play tricks on you and cause you to act in ways you would not normally.


I have been short of food and sleep... hell in the military I went days with very little sleep... I never killed anybody for a candy bar... I did fall asleep while on a night patrol and did forgetful things but it never changed my basic moral makeup..NOR did my mind play TRICKS on me

long and short of it.... lack of sleep is easy to fix... 
being hungry - makes your senses more alert...it is not painful to be hungry


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

When Push comes to Shove, I will do what is right for my family as I always have.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> When Push comes to Shove, I will do what is right for my family as I always have.


I always wonder what things like the above mean??

or when folks say "I will do whatever it takes" or "I will do anything"

Does it mean you will do things even if they might hurt others - if they are right (helpful) for you and yours...


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> I always wonder what things like the above mean??
> 
> or when folks say "I will do whatever it takes" or "I will do anything"
> 
> Does it mean you will do things even if they might hurt others - if they are right (helpful) for you and yours...


I have always been a pillar of society and I don't expect that to change. I have always provided for my family and I dont expect that to change. That is what that means.

One could apply the same wonder to your statement.


Maine-Marine said:


> That is NOT TRUE... I KNOW based on my faith what I will do...


Men of faith have done terrible things in the name of their faith when push comes to shove.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> So God is not God if my children are hungry???
> 
> Regardless, I will not steal, murder, lie, etc..in order to feed myself or my children
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I call BS

You will steal before you starve. Anyone who says otherwise has never starved or is a liar and a fool


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

I have no problem with how they handled the situation. I'd also submit that if there was anything I needed, I'd keep it and distribute the rest if that was practical. As has been alluded to, you cannot help others if your own needs aren't met. There is a reason behind the announcement on commercial flights that if the oxygen masks are deployed you should don yours first then assist small children.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> Men of faith have done terrible things in the name of their faith when push comes to shove.


a few years ago, 2 men broke into my home while I was away... they stole a bunch of stuff and even some of my clothing. 2 months after they robbed my home they robbed a bank while wearing some of my clothes.

The police tried to arrest me because the men appeared to be me because they were wearing my clothes... The judged laughed at them.

My God (I will not discuss the god of islam or others) tells me it is easy to ID who HIS true followers are. He even gives us a guidebook to determine who His sheep are... So if these MAN OF FAITH you spoke of were acting in a way opposed to the Masters teachings - then they did not belong to the Master and were just wearing stolen clothes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I'm sorry, I call BS
> 
> You will steal before you starve. Anyone who says otherwise has never starved or is a liar and a fool


Paul went to Rome even though he knew he would be killed. (

Stephen witnessed to the jews even though he knew he would be killed.

read 2 Corinthians 11.

I will tell you that for me -it would be harder to steal then it would be to starve. I will admit I am a fool for Jesus Christ - I would not disown him to save my life and I would not disown him to save the life of my child.

I know that many people do not understand that..and that it is foolishness to many. I am a fool.

Let me explain it this way... If you knew somebody that you trusted and love - and they told you that they were going away for a time.. when they returned IF they found you wearing a red shirt and yellow pants -they would give you $1 billion dollars..

If you really trusted them and loved them - they would find you wearing a red shirt and yellow pants...not for the money - but because you loved them...

I love Jesus...

Think about the columbine shooting where they shooter asked the 17 year old high school girl if she was a Christian - she could have lied (lying is easier then stealing) but she did not

----------Rachel Joy Scott, a devout Christian, was the first to be shot. Reportedly she was eating lunch on the lawn outside the school when she was approached by the killers and asked if she believed in God. Knowing full well that the end result would be death, she said yes. Refusing to deny her faith in God, Rachel was shot in the head at point blank range. As part of the investigation, video tapes were found in which Eric and Dylan mocked Rachel for her faith.
-------------------
So yes..I may well be a fool...


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

CWOLDOJAX said:


> We lived in Oklahoma 20 years ago. I considered life there to be as good as it was in Iowa. Salt-of-the-earth folks who watched over each other.
> 
> My son and I were at a store in Norman, OK, when we both saw a man drop some change from his pocket while making his purchase.
> I instructed my son to help the man recover his money and I helped too. Polite replies were exchanged, and life goes on.
> ...


This is a pretty broad statement to live up to even in good times. To do so in bad times would put more than just your morals to the test but those of all those around you. I can see where you are coming from / going with these ideals but at some point all you may really do is put more at deaths thresh hold quicker than if you took care of your own and allow other to do the same or suffer at their own lack of trying, really caring or trying. one / you can only do so much, god may show you the way and provide mental / moral help but even God isn't going to do it for you / them that don't work to help themselves. The world is full of people with their hands out waiting for the next handout. It's a large part of what is bringing America down, would you not agree!


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I'm sorry, I call BS
> 
> You will steal before you starve. Anyone who says otherwise has never starved or is a liar and a fool


I'm sorry, I call BS

anybody that says they will sin in order to survive has no idea about eternal life or is a fool!


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

I would take everything they had and then bury them. Why leave anything behind? If you killed them in self defense in a WROL/Total SHTF what is the moral dilemma?


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> a few years ago, 2 men broke into my home while I was away... they stole a bunch of stuff and even some of my clothing. 2 months after they robbed my home they robbed a bank while wearing some of my clothes.
> 
> The police tried to arrest me because the men appeared to be me because they were wearing my clothes... The judged laughed at them.
> 
> My God (I will not discuss the god of islam or others) tells me it is easy to ID who HIS true followers are. He even gives us a guidebook to determine who His sheep are... So if these MAN OF FAITH you spoke of were acting in a way opposed to the Masters teachings - then they did not belong to the Master and were just wearing stolen clothes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So you can see why it is just as easy for me to wonder or question your statement as you did mine.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> I have always been a pillar of society and I don't expect that to change. I have always provided for my family and I dont expect that to change. That is what that means.


He always asks this kind of question when he encounters someone who is willing to do bad things to provide for good people.
It's kind of like a paradox.
How can a good person claim to be good, do something bad, and justify it as good?

If I am a good person, but my child is literally starving to death, am I willing to do something bad to keep them alive?
We often choose to separate ourselves from the animal kingdom.
Rightly so, we are very different, but we are very similar too.
When a bear cub or wolf pup is hungry, their parents go out and kill to provide food. They don't feel remorse for the life they took in order to feed their young.
Yet, we as "civilized" humans, have this moral dilemma.
Some choose to remain civilized, and accept the consequences that come from that decision.
Some choose to do terrible things, forfeiting their civility, to provide for themselves and their family.
The first makes sense to the second.
The second does not make sense to the first.
Hence his question about "what that means".

Bluntly, it means that there are people willing to kill you to take what you have.
How they will be judged for their actions is not entirely up to us.
A hard heart, who kills and steals for selfish gain, is clearly in the wrong.
However, a soft heart, who looks into the face of their dying child, and will not accept that result... his judgement can only be deferred to the Father.
God is just. God is merciful. I accept his judgement for my actions, whatever they may be.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

ekim said:


> This is a pretty broad statement to live up to even in good times. To do so in bad times would put more than just your morals to the test but those of all those around you. I can see where you are coming from / going with these ideals but at some point all you may really do is put more at deaths thresh hold quicker than if you took care of your own and allow other to do the same or suffer at their own lack of trying, really caring or trying. one / you can only do so much, god may show you the way and provide mental / moral help but even God isn't going to do it for you / them that don't work to help themselves. The world is full of people with their hands out waiting for the next handout. It's a large part of what is bringing America down, would you not agree!


The world has always been like that.
America has always been the most benevolent nation in the world. I hope it continues to be so.
Time in my journey have not always been good.

I've held dying men in my arms twice - I only knew one of them.
I've had to fix a helicopter on an island with no name in Indonesia without food/tools (yes - I am McGyver, only better looking).
I paid my brother's child support for the first 2 years I was in the Navy while he got his head screwed on straight.
Wife had stage 4 cancer, grand-daughter had a tumor on her spine, and I was outta work for 100 days while caring for my mom-in-law.
debt-free twice and soon to be again... I ate ramen long before college kids discovered it. 
Yes I had good days and bad years

Some folks do not understand this - but I have a living, communicating, coach - inside my soul. I do struggle with my wants, my perceived needs and my Christian conscience. However, God inserts Himself at the times; I am absolutely lost, painfully hurt, angry enough to take my own action... so I listen to Him. I've had some practice - and I ain't perfect... and I don't always listen, but my experiences with His influence at certain events in my life trumps other people's mockery, disbelief, and condemnation.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> He always asks this kind of question when he encounters someone who is willing to do bad things to provide for good people.
> It's kind of like a paradox.
> How can a good person claim to be good, do something bad, and justify it as good?
> 
> ...


6 of one, half dozen of the other. Some people listen to the voice in thier head and others to the voices in their head.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> So you can see why it is just as easy for me to wonder or question your statement as you did mine.


I guess you are missing my point...I am an obedient follower of Jesus Christ... I do things for His glory not for mine. Those folks that you mentioned as doing bad things were not obedient followers of Jesus Christ...


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> I guess you are missing my point...I am an obedient follower of Jesus Christ... I do things for His glory not for mine. Those folks that you mentioned as doing bad things were not obedient followers of Jesus Christ...


I see you missed the point, it is easy to claim you did x for your god when people don't know who your god is and only have your word to go on, it is also easy for people to question your faith to your god when they do not believe in your god.

Since I do not know what different people's god tells them I can only assume that they are telling the truth when they say their god told them to do it, or I can assume there is no god and they are lying.

People do all kinds of bad things in the name or names of their god or gods. It is very easy not to trust any member of any faith because of this.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I am willing to KILL in defense of my family.
I am not willing to turn my back on God in order to feed them

Abraham took his son to sacrifice him..because pleasing God was more important then his son's life
--------------------

Of course, I have plenty of food put away....so my family will not have to worry about that...if my food is taken there is a very good chance "they" will have killed
me and my family in order to get it

I do not see me ever having to make the choice of stealing to get food..

oh and just so you know... I was homeless at one point in my life..all i had was a ALICE Pack, a few clothes, a tiny bit of money, and a Bible......... I knew where the outside water faucets were on buildings and where the polyjohns at construction sites were...

I went hungry a few times and did not steal


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> I am willing to KILL in defense of my family.
> I am not willing to turn my back on God in order to feed them
> 
> Abraham took his son to sacrifice him..because pleasing God was more important then his son's life
> ...


Well let's hope you never have to make those hard choices again.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> I see you missed the point, it is easy to claim you did x for your god when people don't know who your god is and only have your word to go on, it is also easy for people to question your faith to your god when they do not believe in your god.
> 
> Since I do not know what different people's god tells them I can only assume that they are telling the truth when they say their god told them to do it, or I can assume there is no god and they are lying.
> 
> People do all kinds of bad things in the name or names of their god or gods. It is very easy not to trust any member of any faith because of this.


I understand now - you start off with the assumption that i am lying and you are a godless atheists... you should have just said that at first -


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> Well let's hope you never have to make those hard choices again.


the choice has already been made


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> Well let's hope you never have to make those hard choices again.


and frankly - the choice is not really that hard

Turn my back on God and spend eternity in hell burning in a lake of fire suffering pain that is unimaginable

or

Do what is right in His eyes..........


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## darsk20 (Jun 1, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> and frankly - the choice is not really that hard
> 
> Turn my back on God and spend eternity in hell burning in a lake of fire suffering pain that is unimaginable
> 
> ...


So you really aren't doing it for God, you're doing it so you don't burn in a lake of fire.

God shouldn't have to threaten in order to have the devotion of his Children.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> I understand now - you start off with the assumption that i am lying and you are a godless atheists... you should have just said that at first -


I am not using the term "You" to mean you specificly, I am using that term to mean anyone who I encounter that has somekind of faith.

I start off with the assumption that you have your faith and I do not know what that means to you. So when I see you doing something in the name of your god (right, wrong or indifferent) I have to assume it because what you said it is or you are lying and trying to get out taking the blame upon yourself.

Yes, I am an Athiest. Yes I believe you have the right to believe what you want to believe. It is not my place to tell people what they should or should not believe in, we live in a free country.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

darsk20 said:


> So you really aren't doing it for God, you're doing it so you don't burn in a lake of fire.
> 
> God shouldn't have to threaten in order to have the devotion of his Children.


Welcome to the forum- nice first post.... did you bother to read my other posts before you decide to comdemn me for being selfish.. Here let me answer that...NO you dd not... You were lazy and skipped trying to understand the thread...

You missed were I talked about being obedient out of love not out of a desire for a reward.... Go back and look over the thread.. then you can come back and say Sorry and maybe you can introduce yourself in a nice manner instead of attacking people you do not know


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> I am not using the term "You" to mean you specificly, I am using that term to mean anyone who I encounter that has somekind of faith.
> 
> I start off with the assumption that you have your faith and I do not know what that means to you. So when I see you doing something in the name of your god (right, wrong or indifferent) I have to assume it because what you said it is or you are lying and trying to get out taking the blame upon yourself.
> 
> Yes, I am an Athiest. Yes I believe you have the right to believe what you want to believe. It is not my place to tell people what they should or should not believe in, we live in a free country.


as with anybody anything they say is either a lie or the truth... even you,,, I have no way of knowing that you are telling the truth... and since you are an atheists I have reason to think you have any sense of morals of moral compass except to get ahead and do what makes you happy


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

darsk20 has set a RECORD...I am putting him on ignore after just 1 post


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> as with anybody anything they say is either a lie or the truth... even you,,, I have no way of knowing that you are telling the truth... and since you are an atheists I have reason to think you have any sense of morals of moral compass except to get ahead and do what makes you happy


Well we are at least on equal footing.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

dsdmmat said:


> I am not using the term "You" to mean you specificly, I am using that term to mean anyone who I encounter that has somekind of faith.
> 
> I start off with the assumption that you have your faith and I do not know what that means to you. So when I see you doing something in the name of your god (right, wrong or indifferent) I have to assume it because what you said it is or you are lying and trying to get out taking the blame upon yourself.
> 
> Yes, I am an Athiest. Yes I believe you have the right to believe what you want to believe. It is not my place to tell people what they should or should not believe in, we live in a free country.


Don't worry about it. Those in control are telling the Christians what they can and can't say. No, you are not a part of them, so don't get mad. None of my atheist friends are, nor do any of them agree with the official attacks on Christians in the military, legal attacks on Christian bakers, etc. We drink coffee together, discuss the country's direction and agree that we are headed for interesting times.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

You both know where the other stands.
The bickering isn't adding anything to the discussion.


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## darsk20 (Jun 1, 2015)

Actually I enjoyed reading the whole thread from beginning to end. Valid points of view throughout. 

That has always been a sticking point for me as a Christian and one that no one has ever satisfactorily answered. 

My faith has always grown and waned but I still try to do the right thing. I also do not delude myself in thinking that I know exactly how I would respond in every situation because I know I am always learning, growing and changing and if I am not doing any of those things then I am dead. 

My faith also guarantees that only what is occurring now is guaranteed and nothing past this moment. 

Call me judgmental but I am just quoting your words and our God's words back at us.

You don't like it find another religion.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Denton said:


> Don't worry about it. Those in control are telling the Christians what they can and can't say. No, you are not a part of them, so don't get mad. None of my atheist friends are, nor do any of them agree with the official attacks on Christians in the military, legal attacks on Christian bakers, etc. We drink coffee together, discuss the country's direction and agree that we are headed for interesting times.


We certainly do, I have always believed in free will and that seems to be lacking in our society. It happens when the morality police tell us what we are forced to believe in, who we have to serve, who we have to associate with, what time we have to be in bed, who we can marry, how much we are allowed to earn, what words we can say and which ones will remain unspoken, what guns we can own, where we can live, how we are racist, sexist or immoral because of our thoughts and finally what color underwear we have to wear on Tuesdays.

Of course these are all first world problems because, we have nothing else to worry about except what the neighbor is doing.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> oh and just so you know... I was homeless at one point in my life..all i had was a ALICE Pack, a few clothes, a tiny bit of money, and a Bible......... I knew where the outside water faucets were on buildings and where the polyjohns at construction sites were...
> 
> I went hungry a few times and did not steal


Did you get permission from the faucet owners before you took their water?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> Did you get permission from the faucet owners before you took their water?


I assumed he meant public water fountains...


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Arklatex said:


> Did you get permission from the faucet owners before you took their water?


Don't forget trespassing on a construction site to illegally dump in the Port-A-John.......


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> Did you get permission from the faucet owners before you took their water?


I never thought about it but you are right.. I did not get permission to take the water and I did not get permission to use the porta johns...

The port a johns were not in a no trespassing area - no signs..so i am not sure what the owners would have thought. 
Same with the water, I filled up a gallon jug - not sure what the owners would have said

Not sure if this would fall under "gleanings" and or an Unintentionally sin...

I will have to ponder this


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> I never thought about it but you are right.. I did not get permission to take the water and I did not get permission to use the porta johns...
> 
> The port a johns were not in a no trespassing area - no signs..so i am not sure what the owners would have thought.
> Same with the water, I filled up a gallon jug - not sure what the owners would have said
> ...


Usually constructions sites are fenced in so they don't post no trespassing signs. They are normally fenced in to keep people from the hazard area more than to keep people from stealing things. All the Construction sites I have inspected usually contained quite a few things that could seriously harm a person who did not realize they were there.

We have a lot of trouble keeping people out of constructions sites here on base, they love to do PT on the gravel or topsoil hills not realizing there are a bunch of things that can seriously injure them nearby.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> Usually constructions sites are fenced in so they don't post no trespassing signs. They are normally fenced in to keep people from the hazard area more than to keep people from stealing things. All the Construction sites I have inspected usually contained quite a few things that could seriously harm a person who did not realize they were there.
> 
> We have a lot of trouble keeping people out of constructions sites here on base, they love to do PT on the gravel or topsoil hills not realizing there are a bunch of things that can seriously injure them nearby.


These areas were not fenced in... I would not have entered area that was posted...


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> These areas were not fenced in... I would not have entered area that was posted...


either they were stupid or you were blessed or maybe both.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> I never thought about it but you are right.. I did not get permission to take the water and I did not get permission to use the porta johns...
> 
> The port a johns were not in a no trespassing area - no signs..so i am not sure what the owners would have thought.
> Same with the water, I filled up a gallon jug - not sure what the owners would have said
> ...


Here's how I would chalk that up. Since you are a man of faith you can appreciate the notion of sin. I'm a sinner and a broken man before my Lord. I may want to do right, I may try to do right, but occasionally I do wrong - and that's OK. He bore the whips and thorns of punishment so that I wouldn't have to. He died so that I could still get into Heaven if I wanted to, and that free's me up for the other thing.

You see... As a broken man and a sinner, If I were punish myself for my shortcomings, or if society were to punish me, I would spend an eternity atoning for places I mis-stepped. That would render my existence useless. But as a Christian whose punishment was bought and paid for, I am now freed of my shackles. Freed to go out into the world and try to do good again. Free to help people. Free to be a contributor, not a detractor. At the end of the day, are you adding value to your family, friends, church, community?

Was stealing water and porta-potty time a sin? Maybe... Maybe not... I'm not qualified to answer, because I am not Jesus Christ. But if it is, he already took your lashes thousands of years ago. Ask for his forgiveness, rise off your knees and get back on your feet. Stop suffering over it and start serving because of it - if you make someone's life better, just a little better, you are already doing His work on Earth. Don't sweat those other details, that's what we trust Him to take care of for us.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

IMHO, taking something like M_M is talking about is not a sin. It could be a crime of some muted nature, but not a sin. It would be a sin if I deprived someone of the water they needed, or Potty time they needed. The idea I see here is not a sin.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

paraquack said:


> IMHO, taking something like M_M is talking about is not a sin. It could be a crime of some muted nature, but not a sin. It would be a sin if I deprived someone of the water they needed, or Potty time they needed. The idea I see here is not a sin.


I agree with you Mr. Quack. But then we have the definition of theft to contest. Which I see as the underlying basis of this thread.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Theft is a legal term, not a moral term.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Theft is the taking of that to which you have no legal claim nor moral right.

There should be plenty in that statement to fuel the different sides of this question. Does the death of the thief give you the legal or moral claim to the goods he has stolen - whether you can find the previous owners or their kin?


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I think it falls under "The Spoils of War". Their ill gotten gain will help those with bigger hearts. Has been the case on all major battles. You mean we don't pick up food, ammo, guns that are left behind. I asked my mother once why is it OK to kill when God says No. She said God permits it in such times! Think I was 17 at the time! This was Nam era.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

the spoils of war are often won with blood and death. Our countrymen believe we can shoot with a machine gun and patch up with a band aid and build a school to reconcile.

The last war we fought with the intent on winning was WWII. Our country and country men have lost the will to fight through ease and complacency due to generations of liberal school and governmental media.

No man can even euthanize his animals, we need to take them to a vet to put them down, and feel satisfied in having paid some one to do the dirty work for us.

generations of hardship will be required to make men, men again.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

alterego said:


> No man can even euthanize his animals, we need to take them to a vet to put them down, and feel satisfied in having paid some one to do the dirty work for us.
> 
> generations of hardship will be required to make men, men again.


At 16, I put down the best damn dog I've ever had. My dad couldn't stomach it, my grandfather offered, but she was my dog. She'd lost a leg somehow, and was found in a pool of blood. I wasn't going to let her continue to suffer.
I did it... like a man. I shot her... like a man. I buried her... like a man.
That night, I cried my eyes out... like a man.
I still miss that dog.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Kauboy,
I was a bit older when I had to put my best friend out of his misery. It is something that had to be done but I will never forget that. It wasn't any easier the second time either. Even though my dog turned and attacked me - I was not happy to be the one to put him down. I took his body to the vet to find out what happened. It was a brain tumor - I had no clue. Poor guy must have been in pain for a long time and never let on. sad, and I still feel guilty and it still hurts.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Looks like I hijacked the thread afterall


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

1.) Yes
2.) No
3.) No
4.) Yes
5.) After the folks worse than I have already had their pick.
6.) A strong glare to confirm I notice them, perhaps a calm "hello", and a backing away until out of sight. Likely nothing in there is worth my life. They can have it.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

alterego said:


> No man can even euthanize his animals, we need to take them to a vet to put them down, and feel satisfied in having paid some one to do the dirty work for us.
> 
> generations of hardship will be required to make men, men again.


First part I disagree with. Maybe in the cities it's true, but I grew up putting down animals. Cattle and horses with broken legs, or sick and not worth the vet bill, dogs that don't train, cats that... well, cats. It's a mind set of remembering that no matter how much we care for our animals, they are, inherently, tools. I'm sorry, but a dog isn't worth a $2000 vet bill. 
Hell, we had a dog get a broken leg from being hit by a car. We spent $250 to get her splinted up and healed right, 2 months later she got hit again and broke her other leg. We just reused the splint with some new ace wraps, she had problems the rest of her life, got tired and did the 3 legged hop after 5 or 6 hours of running cattle, but she always kept up, and never got hit by another car.

Second part, I agree with. It's hard to find men with the intestinal fortitude to be men. In general I see guys who just can't make decisions, get stuff done, or do a days labor. It's sad. We got a truck of about 300 bales of hay at the stables where I was doing funeral honors (they uses horses to pull casons for retirees and Active Duty deaths.) I hadn't touched a hay bale since I was 18, but I still bucked more hay faster than anyone there, including the guys who's job it is. Got blisters inside my blisters, but I loved every second of it.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> Paul went to Rome even though he knew he would be killed. (
> 
> Stephen witnessed to the jews even though he knew he would be killed.
> 
> ...


Yes, and you are none of them, and starving to death is much slower and more agonizing and SIGNIFICANTLY more mentally trying than ANY of the things you mentioned.

Directly I question your faith simply by the exact fact that you are on this site. You acquire worldly possessions to provide for your worldly family in a worldly disaster.

You are NOT directly following the teachings of Christ, who directed you to abandon the possessions of this world and go out into the world spreading the Good Word. So until I see you spending your days in rags, loving your neighbors (aka every living soul on the planet) spreading the Gospel, and depending on the good will of others to survive, I will continue to call BS

Now before you call me a hypocrite, I'm not saying I do those things either. I'm just stating that when I was starving, I stole, and you will too. More so when it's your family starving and God isn't providing. It can take months to completely starve to death. I hope, with all sincerity that you, your family, or anyone else never know that feeling.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> I am willing to KILL in defense of my family.
> I am not willing to turn my back on God in order to feed them
> 
> Abraham took his son to sacrifice him..because pleasing God was more important then his son's life
> ...


Going hungry a few times and going weeks without food are not the same thing, just to be clear.

Edit. Isn't killing against God as well?


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

GTGallop said:


> Theft is a legal term, not a moral term.


I'm guessing you've never read the 10 commandments?


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

End state of this whole thing, if "you" and I have an altercation, whatever the reason, and "you" end up dead, your stuff is mine, UNLESS "you" are part of a group, in which case the possessions default to the group. (Unless I have to kill the whole group)


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Most people don't know what real hunger is like. I have been there but never stole food. I did ask the manager of a store once if they had anything that I could have and I was told that they could not legally give me things they were throwing away but they would not prosecute me for getting something to eat out of the dumpster. I did use that to supplement the fish, ducks, geese, rabbits and squirrels that I "harvested" from the lakes and parks at night. I lived in my car and only drove it to new "safe" parking places. I walked to get around. The years between my 17th and 19th birthdays were some of the hardest lessons I had to learn. I learned them and have never looked back. I did some things that were "illegal" to feed myself but I never stole to feed myself. I never took what belonged to another individual in those years. I thank God for those lessons. They helped make me who I am today.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

PaulS said:


> Most people don't know what real hunger is like. I have been there but never stole food. I did ask the manager of a store once if they had anything that I could have and I was told that they could not legally give me things they were throwing away but they would not prosecute me for getting something to eat out of the dumpster. I did use that to supplement the fish, ducks, geese, rabbits and squirrels that I "harvested" from the lakes and parks at night. I lived in my car and only drove it to new "safe" parking places. I walked to get around. The years between my 17th and 19th birthdays were some of the hardest lessons I had to learn. I learned them and have never looked back. I did some things that were "illegal" to feed myself but I never stole to feed myself. I never took what belonged to another individual in those years. I thank God for those lessons. They helped make me who I am today.


Technically you stole from the dumpster. Technically.

And that's the point I'm getting at.

We will do incredible things to stay alive


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I actually had permission from the manager to take from the dumpster. It wasn't stealing at all.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Disturbed12404 said:


> So I had read "Survivors" By James Wesley Rawles a few weeks ago and this part has been in my mind for the longest time, I am curious about the other feelings on it.
> 
> At one part of this book, the survivors see two people coming up their compound driveway, So they stage an ambush. Once they ambush the people and go through their stuff they find some pretty....gross. Things, one guy loses his temper and blows the two guys away. Whatever.
> 
> ...


This would be a real easy answer for anybody who happeend to swipe a Bible out of a No Tell Motel room. The evil folks gather and heap it up so the good guys can have it. Kindly dont make me come up; there. Thanks.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

PaulS said:


> I actually had permission from the manager to take from the dumpster. It wasn't stealing at all.


Stating they won't prosecute you does not make it not stealing. The owner is the one who set the policy stating they couldn't give you the food.

Turning a blind eye does not make it any more or less wrong.

Again though, I'm speaking only in the most technical sense of the meaning. Semantics really


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> Yes, and you are none of them, and starving to death is much slower and more agonizing and SIGNIFICANTLY more mentally trying than ANY of the things you mentioned.
> 
> Directly I question your faith simply by the exact fact that you are on this site. You acquire worldly possessions to provide for your worldly family in a worldly disaster.
> 
> ...


Your knowledge of the bible is very limited.



Jakthesoldier said:


> I question your faith simply by the exact fact that you are on this site. You acquire worldly possessions to provide for your worldly family in a worldly disaster.


It is not money or possessions that makes us separated from God or disobedient. It is LOVE of money and possession.

1 Timothy 5:8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Proverbs 21:20 The wise store up choice food and olive oil, but fools gulp theirs down.



Jakthesoldier said:


> You are NOT directly following the teachings of Christ, who directed you to abandon the possessions of this world and go out into the world spreading the Good Word.


You would have to show me WHERE you are getting that wisdom from....

see notes above and GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES... yep... but you are confusing 2 verses.. the gospel must go into (be preached) the whole world and we are to make disciples... BUT it is clear SAME are to be pastors and teachers others

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;..

Not everybody is called to be single and roam the world suffering for Jesus...



Jakthesoldier said:


> I'm just stating that when I was starving, I stole, and you will too. More so when it's your family starving and God isn't providing. It can take months to completely starve to death.


You do not get this on many levels.. 
First I AM NOT YOU... I have different convictions and beliefs then you. I do not view this world as being my home 
Second In the big scheme knowing that life here is years and life with Jesus is eternal... it is hard to think i would steal and murder in order to avoid going to my true home with the King of kings....
Third I have prepared food just so I will not have to starve or see my family starve. 
Forth - I have followed Jesus for many many years as has my wife...We would not deny him in order to (fill in the blank) Death be it long or short, easy or hard, will not cause me to stop loving Jesus. 
Fifth - I understand that you try to view what other people will do based on your pasted, your ideas, your morality, your view of eternity.... I understand that you do not get it - I understand that you think that people will just quit Jesus when they get really -hungry, hurt, abused.... Some will.... but for me..my faith is deep and wide.



Jakthesoldier said:


> More so when it's your family starving and God isn't providing....


God has always provided in the past...so my experience is that he has not failed me before why should he start failing me in the future


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> Isn't killing against God as well?


Killing is not against God....


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I'm guessing you've never read the 10 commandments?





Jakthesoldier said:


> Stating they won't prosecute you does not make it not stealing. The owner is the one who set the policy stating they couldn't give you the food.
> 
> Turning a blind eye does not make it any more or less wrong.
> 
> Again though, I'm speaking only in the most technical sense of the meaning. Semantics really


The manager gave him permission. The manager was placed in charge by the owner and speaks for the owner.

In the military - the 1st sgt does not come down and say--the captain told me to tell you...
I the civilian world a manager does not say - the owner said....

at least not if they are good 1st sgts and good managers........


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> Stating they won't prosecute you does not make it not stealing. The owner is the one who set the policy stating they couldn't give you the food.
> 
> Turning a blind eye does not make it any more or less wrong.
> 
> Again though, I'm speaking only in the most technical sense of the meaning. Semantics really


He didn't turn a blind eye.
The manager stated that it would be illegal for *him* to give food away that they were throwing out. (think sanitation, once it is considered trash, you can't give it to charity)
However, the manager said they would not press charges if Paul took it from the dumpster himself.
That plainly means that he gave permission, and thus it was not stealing.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Actually, there was a liability reason that they could not hand out food. Those issues were taken care of more than a few years back. The issue for me was solved when I was told I could take it which relieved them of liability.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

PaulS said:


> Actually, there was a liability reason that they could not hand out food. Those issues were taken care of more than a few years back. The issue for me was solved when I was told I could take it which relieved them of liability.


When the wife and I ran our bakery we would donate all the unsold baked goods to the unwed mother's shelter. There are financial reasons you don't discount day old stuff or give it away to people near or around the store at closing time. Most of them are beacuse people are cheap and if they see you will discount things or give it away after a certain time they will not buy it until such time.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Sorta reminds me of back when I was kid..the school cafeteria served a lot of guv'ment commodities. Such as powdererd milk..peanut butter..butter..cheese..raisins etc. Real poor school district located in the oil patch. Anyway my Mama worked in the cafeteria of one of the schools. The Boss lady called them in there and told the employees..."I am fixing to have to throw out a bunch of commdities which are getting too old. Its illegal for me to give them away..but if anybody wants to steal some...I cant help it." If not for them stolen commodities some of would like have starved to death. My Mama made the best raisin pie i town..and we knew when we started hitting the powdered milk which she was always careful to put in regular milk cartons. She was was real tricky..lol.


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