# Another Question of Morality



## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Shoots and I have been discussing this at home, and we realize that many of you are first responders and active, reserve, and retired military.

If and when a SHTF situation arises how do those of us trained to protect EVERYONE handle it? 

I had always assumed that in a SHTF situation I would just bug out, disappear, and reappear when everything calmed down. I know that I can't help everyone, and that my skills make me uniquely qualified to help restructure society, gather groups, and do all that surviving with whats left stuff.

Shoots pointed out to me that I really don't get to do that. I am a first responder. I am a soldier. I am a security officer. When in uniform people see it and the cammo or badge and think that I will lead them to safety and deal with the problems. I can help facilitate evacuations, provide medical care, organize rescue operations, and help ensure the greatest survival rates. I can help create order from chaos. I can provide comfort and reassurance. 

So she is right. I don't get to bug out. I don't get to disappear into the shadows. I must stay behind and help as much as I can right up until things really fall completely apart. 

The more I think about it the more I realize that I would have done that anyway. I love helping others and teaching too much. If I saw someone trying to change a tire, or having car trouble, injured, lost, etc. I would stop and help them. I do it now, whether I'm working or not. I stop at accidents and do what I can until EMS arrives, I help people in parking lots with car trouble, I talk to strangers. 

Yes I realize its dangerous. Its my job, and I love it. And I am now very fortunate that I get paid to do what I would be doing anyway. 

So here are the questions. Given who you all are, and what you do, can you really just bug out, or bug in? Why or why not? Did this post make you reconsider your position, whether you changed it or not? Have you already discussed this with your families or prepper buddies? 

I'm not talking about EOTWAWKI. Not "In other news the nukes will be landing in all major cities in 45 minutes." Not ZDay. I'm talking about hurricane Sandy or Katrina, I'm talking about earthquakes, 9/11s and martial law, that kind of stuff. The everyday SHTF in your neighborhood/city/state. The stuff we actually use our preps for.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Short answer - you stack rank your loved ones and realize that:
1. They did the same thing and you might not be on the top of their list either
2. Sometimes someone's gotta go

Suck it up and stockpile kleenex if that bothers you.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Make sure your family is prepared & can take care of themselves & go do your job.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

I have no official position that would make people look to me. Doesn't matter (to me).

First I make sure my people (immediate circle) are taken care of as best as possible. And I take care of myself; that's part of my job too.

That accomplished, I help my neighbors. My goal is to do it based on an evaluation of what it's really feasible to do and who I should be helping, so my resources and effort are as effective as possible.

I don't want to be "some D-bag that prospered while her neighbors suffered needlessly'. "Serves them right" may be true, but ... they're people. They matter.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

There will be tough calls to make. As individuals and as a group we will have to deal with each as it presents it' self. As a solider you know full well you can not save everyone. Charity comes from the strong the weak have nothing to offer. If you operate from a positions of strength then you are in a better position to help others.
You will live with the decisions you make , you are not going to like them all.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

My situation as a pastor is simple, . . . my family comes first:

1 Timothy 5:7-8 (KJV) 
7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless. 
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. 

My family, including my church family is MY first responsibility, . . . period. 

It will entail organizing, . . . resourcing, . . . directing, . . . ordering, . . . and of course, doing.

But it will be as a leader, mostly, as that IS the position the Lord has placed me in.

I will not be carting people in my van to a hospital 20 miles away, if there are others to do that.

I will not be making soup and feeding the bedraggled homeless coming by, . . . others will be tasked to that.

It is up to all of us to understand where we ARE in the overall scheme of things, . . . act accordingly.

You bring up a very serious question, Jakethesoldier, . . . thank you for making it surface.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

GTGallop said:


> Short answer - you stack rank your loved ones and realize that:
> 1. They did the same thing and you might not be on the top of their list either
> 2. Sometimes someone's gotta go
> 
> Suck it up and stockpile kleenex if that bothers you.


You want me to prioritize my family members and loved ones, then realize that they don't care about me. That has nothing to do with the question. At all.
Then you say "sometimes someone's gotta go" as though, given even just the small peek into what I do for a living, you think I don't understand sacrifice. Yet, even with that I am stating that I am willing to place myself in harms way to help others (that's called sacrifice.)
Then you give me some canned "suck it up buttercup" crap?

I'm sorry either I don't understand you, you didn't understand the question, or you accidentally posted in the wrong thread. It sounds like you are insulting my intelligence, and calling me spineless. I'd appreciate if you explained. I do not want to think ill of you.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

I will help out, its my job too. but the minute someone calls for martial law, I'm changing uniform and putting on my ninja suit and its time to disappear.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

mhans827 said:


> I will help out, its my job too. but the minute someone calls for martial law, I'm changing uniform and putting on my ninja suit and its time to disappear.


Agreed. That is the one time I will have nothing to do with a uniform, and everything to do with active resistance and escape. I LOVE my brothers and sisters in uniform, but the second we turn our muzzles towards our own orderly citizens I am no longer on their side.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Last winter the Southeast has a significant ice and snow event that left areas of Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia paralyzed for a couple of days. Not a big deal for those of you who live with severe winter every year but a big damn deal for southerners.

My mother in law (alzheimer's) and my brother in law (her caretaker) got caught in the storm mainly because my brother in law is a sheeple and needed to get out and buy some milk and bread like every other sheeple. So who went to rescue them? Me, because I love my wife and mother in law and feel sorry for my brother in law...but thats another story.

So I'm taking them home in my Rubicon and as I get closer to their neighborhood, there are hundreds if not thousands of stranded cars and people. Many accidents and people standing around waiting for help or walking home. Its 10 degrees F there's an inch of ice on the ground and 4 inches of snow above it. A 20 minute drive turns into a 2 hour knuckle gripping experience but I get them home safely. 

As I turn around and make my way home, more and more people are getting desperate because its getting dark. I stop and help a few people and then a few more ask me for help. I realize that these sheeple have no capacity to help themselves and if I'm going to get home safe, I better leave. So I do. A few people actually flip me off for not stopping to help them. 

I get home, tired and cold but safe and unharmed...6 hours into a round trip that on a normal day would be 40-45 minutes tops. You can't save everyone and there will be people who are willing to prey upon your good will.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> My situation as a pastor is simple, . . . my family comes first:
> 
> 1 Timothy 5:7-8 (KJV)
> 7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
> ...


I like your post. I have a couple comments though. 
1. Leaders lead from the front and don't ask people to do anything they aren't willing to do themselves. So in our hypothetical situation, I suggest you do make some soup and feed the homeless etc., especially since your position makes the benefit twofold. One you become a charismatic leader (most effective leadership) and STAY that way, proving yourself to your flock and its new members (which there certainly will be) AND you get to talk to your flock and spread your message as well as hear the heartaches of your flock and help counsel and console them. As it stands, the way I read your post about "others will be tasked" I would instantly regard you as disconnected, bossy, "above" the "masses" and, well, an a**hole. Again, if my sole impression of you was walking up to a shelter and you were the boss and that was written somewhere like framed on your desk or something. Food for thought.

2. (This one depends on your community) Churches and clergy are typically seen as soft targets in the community. Clergy are historically given non leader positions in times of crisis as they are not seen as being suited for doing so, and religious beliefs can interfere with making the "hard but necessary" decisions. The fact that you are on this forum tells me clearly that you do not fall into these categories, however, (again this depends on your community) the world does not see you that way, placing you at a tactical disadvantage as you will repeatedly need to prove you are not, in fact, a soft target.


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## shoot2live (Feb 6, 2015)

I grew up on a firetruck; mem badges raised me; camo covers most of my family, friends, and city; my career makes a difference in the young and lost; I stand up for strangers, powerless to their attackers; and, my heart refuses to flee. 
Life offered, and continues to offer, opportunities to develop valuable skills to help. My dad raised me to run into a fire, when others run out. Unless Martial Law is called, I WILL NOT FLEE if I'm capable to assist. 
To ensure my offer to help doesn't get turned down, I'm working on CERT and helping the Red Cross. 
Oh, and if microphones don't work, my teacher voice works just fine.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I am not going to follow some jerk in a uniform who thinks he knows better than I do just because he is wearing a uniform. He better have real ideas and be ready to explain them concisely. If he starts offering up orders, he is part of the problem.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Jak and shoot2live,

You two make me shake my head sometimes...and smile often.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Diver said:


> I am not going to follow some jerk in a uniform who thinks he knows better than I do just because he is wearing a uniform. He better have real ideas and be ready to explain them concisely. If he starts offering up orders, he is part of the problem.


What about this "jerk" in a uniform?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Slippy said:


> What about this "jerk" in a uniform?


 Nothing but problems move on. 
No one is required to follow this jerk in uniform. Keep in mind those that did all came home. Nice guys make failed leaders when it goes bad.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

I, like you will not turn my back on some one in need (depending on the situation). For people actively wanting to help in a crisis there are organizations they can join. Like shoot2live mentioned there is the Red Cross and CERT. Depending on your state there is also the state defense or reserve force. It is like a police reserve but for the national guard.

State Guard Association of the United States

Not every state has one. Depending on your area there is also the volunteer fire department.

If you have a felony though, forget it. You are no longer worthy enough to save some ones life. These volunteer agencies will not accept you. It does not matter what you have done or if your life is turned around for the good.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Yes Slippy, that is indeed hot. Were I not married I would follow that right to my own demise. 

I have become the go-to guy in the neighborhood for pretty much everything. I'm fine with it and I am glad people trust me so much. I watch their dogs, have keys to their houses, get calls in the middle of the night when they should be calling 911 etc. If it all broke loose today I would not leave these folks twisting in the breeze. The best thing you can do is put everyone to work. Each according to their talents and abilities. I think as a group we could nominate and elect a leader. Collectively we are better off than I would be alone. I know what skills my neighbors have because I talk to all of them. We would be fine.........Except Milo, If the shooting starts, I would puff Milo first, he's a dick.


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## shoot2live (Feb 6, 2015)

Slippy, Jak and I often find our individual perspectives on opposite sides of the spectrum, yet we open each other's eyes and find a happy median. Raised in two different societies, we share the need to voice our position and protect what we love.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

csi-tech said:


> Yes Slippy, that is indeed hot....


I've made it my life's goal to find 1 LEO that Diver likes...


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I am retired Military
12 years in Law Enforcement
9 years as a combat Medic


I was not trained or taught to protect "Everyone"

I was trained to protect those that are around me...

SO the people who are around me will be my family and friends.. sure if a person needs food I will help... BUT come SHTF, I am not going to be out an about - Of course my job is no longer as a first responder.

I should also say that for me SHTF is not a hurricane... there is plenty of time for people to leave
SHTF is not a snow storm - plenty of time to prepare

SHTF is a tornado, earthquake, dollar collapse, EMP....


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> I am retired Military
> 12 years in Law Enforcement
> 9 years as a combat Medic
> 
> ...


I find myself suddenly so confused. Your screen name made me think you were a Marine, but with 9 years as a combat medic you couldn't have been a Marine, but maybe a Devil Doc? Oh well, just curious. I assumed and we'll we know what that does.

I agree with "plenty of time to get away," mostly. I'm referring to the disaster relief effort, in those cases. And a snow storm you can prepare for, but, as I experienced at West Point, sometimes the weather man calls for cloudy skies and all of a sudden you find yourself in the middle of the first recorded snowfall before Halloween 1.5 feet deep. And, since there are leaves still on the trees because snow isn't supposed to fall for another month or so, all the trees break and fall on everything, breaking every power line in an 80 mile radius, blocking roads, destroying buildings, even breaking water mains and sewage lines when trees are uprooted a snow storm can be SHTF. Especially when 80,000 people are without utilities or access to supplies. And 40,000 remained that way for a month and a half.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

dwight55 said:


> My situation as a pastor is simple, . . . my family comes first:
> 
> 1 Timothy 5:7-8 (KJV)
> 7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
> ...


Dwight55 I think you are right. None of us are worth a damn if we do not have our priorities straight. For me that means God, family, others. If you are directing a good number of people. delegating tasks so you can oversee it all is a leaders responsibliity, not to get caught up in the smallest details. The Lord put you in charge for a reason. Do it to the best of your ability.

Those that are first responders, fulfill it to the best of your ability but watchout for your family. We can all think of SHTF situations where our families need us and no one else can do it, There are always tough decisons to make. There is only so much any one can humanly do.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I find myself suddenly so confused. Your screen name made me think you were a Marine, but with 9 years as a combat medic you couldn't have been a Marine,


1981 - 1993 USMC
1993 - 2002 Army National Guard


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Slippy said:


> I've made it my life's goal to find 1 LEO that Diver likes...


Diver is a good dude. We PM back and forth and manage to find common ground from time to time. If he doesn't like your LEO he does have some serious issues!


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> I am retired Military
> 12 years in Law Enforcement
> 9 years as a combat Medic
> 
> ...


41 years in the trenches, my hat is off to you Sir, thank you.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> 1981 - 1993 USMC
> 1993 - 2002 Army National Guard


Ah, nice.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

I can tell you this . If as a military leader you are assigned an area every person every bit of property in that area becomes your responsibility. Try telling BC that that 3 citizens that were killed last night were not your problem. You better come up with a better explanation than that.
At 19 years old I became a SGT. Way to young and clearly not ready. A hard core MSG took me on and woke my ignorant ass up. I will not post the names I was called over the years jerk would be a nice one. Strange thing was every time we packed up, there were many that wanted to be in my Squad, Section ,PLT or Company.
Last point the guy that wants to go his own way let him go he is worthless and won't make it.
I served with along side front and back of many US Marines. To make a general statement about them they understood being a part of the team. Maybe one of the reasons I married one.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

Diver said:


> I am not going to follow some jerk in a uniform who thinks he knows better than I do just because he is wearing a uniform. He better have real ideas and be ready to explain them concisely. If he starts offering up orders, he is part of the problem.


going to be all kinds of uniforms out there .... thinking and sometimes just pretending to have authority .... and then there's the pure nuts to contend with ... if you've been on the prepper sites long enough you probably read postings from the CERT people .... more than a few figs fallen from that program - if a New Jesus Christ of the Apocalypse comes along wearing CERT gear - don't be too surprised ....


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

I have struggled mightily with this question. As a nurse, my whole nature is tweaked toward providing care and aid to others. But as a mother, I am Mama Bear, no holds barred when it comes to protecting my family. In the case of local disaster, I would be called in to the hospital to work for who knows how long. I will do that. BUT I have decided that in the case of a pandemic virus or HEMP, my "retirement" starts immediately. 

A pandemic virus, like avian flu, will overwhelm every health facility within days. Patients will line the halls on cots. All the back up ventilators will be in use, and then they will start dying. Avian flu has a 50-80% mortality rate. I will NOT be locked in under quarantine orders like they did in Toronto with SARS. A lot of health care workers died in the quarantine hospital. 

In the case of an HEMP, I may not even be able to get to work, depending on my car's condition. Emergency generators will run out of fuel quickly. Our hospital has the highest capacity generator in town, and it can only go for about 72 hours tops, and with a HEMP it is possible that the generator may not even work at all. Then all the life support equipment will be gone. With everything computerized now, we will not even be able to get into medication cabinets, coded doors, or supply rooms without breaking them down. Refridgeration is gone, food is gone, water is gone, the patients die. 

Bottom line - this is SOOOOOO hard. I have to put my family above trying to save patients who are doomed anyway. I've talked to other prepper nurses, and we all feel the same. Our careers will be gone, as patient abandonment is about the most serious offense a nurse can commit. Our licenses would be pulled and we could even be charged with manslaughter. I hope and pray I am actually at home when something like this happens. Pandemic flu - I'm not going to work once it hits town. Hopefully I will be bugged-out with my family by that time. HEMP - I won't be able to get to work anyway, and if I'm there, I will do what I can to help the panic, but will get home as soon as able, to bug-in and ride out the chaos.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

I'm not a first responder on the traditional sense but am a certified wilderness first responder. My skills are for me, my family and my immediate friends. I will not risk them by using my supplies on strangers. I know it sounds cold but that's the way it goes.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Slippy said:


> I've made it my life's goal to find 1 LEO that Diver likes...


for the 1st time I disagree with you slippy.... you are looking to find 1 LEO that diver likes? don't you know that Diver likes ALL LEO's... he LIKES to hate ALL of them...:armata_PDT_24:


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

If teaching is "sharing"
If leading is organization & goal oriented problem solving
If the person who knows most about a thing speaks first, then others with input or questions speak
If most people solve most things by simple conscience and votes are rare, you will do well.

That said I turn my head. I look funny laughing and holding my nose at the same time.....


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

> I am a first responder. I am a soldier. I am a security officer.


Being a soldier or a security guard means squat after a hurricane. Being a security guard brings no authority or ability. Being trained in life-saving knowledge, on the other hand, brings ability to everywhere you go, even to restaurants in normal times.

Being prepared for such things, on the other hand, makes everyone more prepared to help out the community. A simple chainsaw and the ability to clear streets and driveways will help out, greatly. Having extra blankets and a hot cup of coffee for the neighbor who was unfortunate enough to have a falling tree take perfect aim at their house along with a spare bed or cot in your own house for them is a wonderful thing.

Most of all, being prepared for such events and the ability to take care of you and your own so that emergency crews don't have to spend time with you means quite a lot. That, and resisting the temptation of getting in the car to roam around, rubbernecking. If I were a cop who found a roaming rubbernecker, I would be tempted to wail on the idiot's head until his noggin rang like the Canterbury Chimes.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Denton said:


> Being a soldier or a security guard means squat after a hurricane. Being a security guard brings no authority or ability. Being trained in life-saving knowledge, on the other hand, brings ability to everywhere you go, even to restaurants in normal times.
> 
> Being prepared for such things, on the other hand, makes everyone more prepared to help out the community. A simple chainsaw and the ability to clear streets and driveways will help out, greatly. Having extra blankets and a hot cup of coffee for the neighbor who was unfortunate enough to have a falling tree take perfect aim at their house along with a spare bed or cot in your own house for them is a wonderful thing.
> 
> Most of all, being prepared for such events and the ability to take care of you and your own so that emergency crews don't have to spend time with you means quite a lot. That, and resisting the temptation of getting in the car to roam around, rubbernecking. If I were a cop who found a roaming rubbernecker, I would be tempted to wail on the idiot's head until his noggin rang like the Canterbury Chimes.


I agree on all points minus one. When sheeple see a badge and a gun, it doesn't matter if the badge says police or security, they see authority. And since LEOs tend to deputize security officers in crisis situations, it means even more.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> Being a soldier or a security guard means squat after a hurricane. Being a security guard brings no authority or ability. Being trained in life-saving knowledge, on the other hand, brings ability to everywhere you go, even to restaurants in normal times.
> 
> Being prepared for such things, on the other hand, makes everyone more prepared to help out the community. A simple chainsaw and the ability to clear streets and driveways will help out, greatly. Having extra blankets and a hot cup of coffee for the neighbor who was unfortunate enough to have a falling tree take perfect aim at their house along with a spare bed or cot in your own house for them is a wonderful thing.
> 
> Most of all, being prepared for such events and the ability to take care of you and your own so that emergency crews don't have to spend time with you means quite a lot. That, and resisting the temptation of getting in the car to roam around, rubbernecking. If I were a cop who found a roaming rubbernecker, I would be tempted to wail on the idiot's head until his noggin rang like the Canterbury Chimes.


I was with you until the end. You just gave me a reason not to go out and help people. There will be cops wanting to "wail on the idiot's head" and I know full well, the cops can't tell an idiot from someone trying to help out.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> Shoots and I have been discussing this at home, and we realize that many of you are first responders and active, reserve, and retired military.
> 
> If and when a SHTF situation arises how do those of us trained to protect EVERYONE handle it?
> 
> ...


Well think as I have claimed before...we aint bugging out nowhere because got no place to go..and currently lack the motivation to find such a place. Suspect we will stick around and see wassup. lol. Will surely try to help when and where we can. As Bible Believing Christians we fully expect Christ to return before things get too rough down here. As the Bible says..we are not appointed to wrath. We are praying hard for a pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Stocking up on a little food and ammo in case we got it wrong.


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## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

Every time there is bad weather coming in or something going on i always check on our senior citizens to make sure they have food water and flash lights i don't go through the whole neighborhood just the older folks then after everything passes i go check again make sure they all made it OK,,,i would do the same for any crises i am well armed and have three years of food saved up for a 4 person family even though it me and my wife now, ill do what i can to help my neighbors til things loosen up ... that's the plan at least


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I agree on all points minus one. When sheeple see a badge and a gun, it doesn't matter if the badge says police or security, they see authority. And since LEOs tend to deputize security officers in crisis situations, it means even more.


If you are deputized and wearing the proper badge and possess the proper credentials while operating under the guidance and directive of the sheriff, that is one thing. If you decide you are a cop simply because you have a store badge and a gun, you are operating outside of any authority and are a problem. Being a security guard gives you no authority, does not mean you are POST'ed and does not mean you are operating under the directive of higher authority. You are a civilian with a uniform. As far as sheriffs deputizing security guards in time of crisis, I am not aware of that being the case or why they would prefer doing that.

I'm not even sure why you would think you would need to run around telling "sheeple" what to do after a blizzard or something came through an area or why it would be necessary.

There are people who are hired, sent to academy where they are taught the legal ins and outs of situations as well as how to operate under the authority of whatever level of law enforcement they belong. If the situation warrants, the governor can call out another group of people who will act under authority and they will be well briefed on what is expected of them when entering a disaster area.

I would think the best thing to do is take care of your own neighborhood, not as someone wearing a security uniform, a security badge (that has no authority behind it) and a sidearm, but as a good neighbor.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I'm sorry either I don't understand you, you didn't understand the question, or you accidentally posted in the wrong thread. It sounds like you are insulting my intelligence, and calling me spineless. I'd appreciate if you explained. I do not want to think ill of you.


I'm not offended and no insult was intended. I think I may have read into your post more than was there. I understand around the bugging in and out and that now that you have dependents, you are obligated to stay and sacrifice for them. I focused more around the line, "If and when a SHTF situation arises how do those of us trained to protect EVERYONE handle it?" And by "Everyone" I took that to mean a large extended family with wife and children as well as aunts, uncles, cousins, in-laws, and maybe a few strange people that show up at every family event yet you can never really put your finger on exactly how they are related to anyone there. I also assumed that as is the case in most families, you have core producers and dead weight and a hand full of people that fall in between. You may even have some people that are straight up liability.

So what I understood your question to be was, and I'm paraphrasing here, "How does someone who is trained in handling a crisis and providing for the well being of citizens with an accompanying and supporting team and who has taken an oath to uphold and protect people who can not help themselves at that moment possibly rationalize that in a SHTF situation they will be working with out a team and will not be able to ply their trade and craft as effectively as before SHTF in a large scale family setting." Run on sentence? Probably.

So a less callous and more respectful way of saying what I did (and all I did was over simplify with out the intention of being flippant) would be to say that, "Trained public service professionals (soldiers, police, EMT, firefighters) will have to shift their MO and accept that they can not save people in a manner consistent with the system with which they were trained to rely upon. Post SHTF will be about having less and doing less. Given a typical family structure there will be people you want to save and people that you may be less inclined to spend valuable resources on to prevent them from magnifying a liability that costs more lives. If you can rate peoples worth and viability objectively, then they can do the same to you. Unfortunately, one day will come where you have to choose between two people and you will choose to save the most valuable. If you aren't comfortable with that, then you need to start wrapping your head around it now while you have the luxury of time to think and process that eventuality, because after the SHTF, there will be no time for licking wounds."

So no offense or insult was meant by that. You are free to agree or disagree with that statement. If you want to think about it for a few days and then come back and show me the err of my ways, I'm fine with that. It is a good question you have asked and a heavy topic to discuss - especially with strangers on the internet. I'm not holding you to any timelines or expectations that you will agree or disagree. Simply put, the above is my belief and no one is obligated to be subjected to it unless they bug in with me. If you do ultimately disagree with it, I'm fine with that too - just do me the courtesy of explaining why, objectively, so that I may see things from new eyes.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I agree on all points minus one. When sheeple see a badge and a gun, it doesn't matter if the badge says police or security, they see authority.


And that is exactly why the TSA has a badge embroidered on their uniforms. They are not LEO. They are not DOD. They are not even a security or regulatory agency. They are an administrative checkpoint with little to no authority to detain or search your belongings. But because they have a "badge" on, people give them more leeway than they would a Walmart greeter and they are largely the same thing. Only difference is that the TSA has a walkie talkie and a support network.

Not making that point to argue the validity of the TSA. Just using it as an example of how a badge is used to connote authority and bring compliance with out flexing powers they don't have. It borders on abuse. Anyone wearing a badge post SHTF - even a TSA vest - who is not acting under any official decree stands a reasonable chance of abusing the inherent respect most Americans have for a badge.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

After reading your post a couple of times to make sure what I am replying to I have come up with this. As for what trained professionals are going to do look no further than those that lost their lives at 9/11. No second thoughts about entering ground zero to assist others. As the saying goes " when other run from danger we run towards it."

If it a natural disaster I would go about business as usual going about helping people as per my job; my wife is in medical so she would be doing the same. My kids are capable of caring for them and theirs so the only person I would really have to worry about is my elderly mother that lives with us. We are set up good at the house so unless roaming thugs were about (not much of a worry where I live) so she should be alright.

If it were worse, say an EMP or something like that where society is in disarray where one has to worry about being killed if you step out of the house my family is my first priority. Close friends and extended family comes second, all others third.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Big difference weather ,natural disaster caused serious life threating issues VS real SHTF. In cases of a storm like Katrina. The last thing you need to be doing is out running nuts in the street . Perpers will for the most part be safe a ok where they are and able to help those close to them. As inapt as they are we would need to remain out of FEMA way and allow them to function. By protecting our own few feet of space by helping those near us we make the Job FEMA will try to do easier.
Easy to justify defending your space , different issue if you are out running around town trying to assert authority. I know darn well if you come up on me your going to be in a world or trouble. While No desire to confront LE they will not be the deciding factor in what we do or what happens to our supplies.
The last thing anyone needs is more confusion. This is the beauty of each of us being prepared. Confusion and chaos will be reduced allowing LE to deal with the issues that present themselves. Being prepared we do not use up needed resources either supplies or man power. Boys from the hood want to take what we have good luck again we are prepared for more than just food and water. However again by staying put caring for our self we are less likely to find ourselves dealing with the boys from the hood.
Total SHTF all bets are off all new rules. We will adjust fire as needed.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

There are some very deep thoughts in these five pages of conversations. Soul searching and playing the scenerios in your mind is all good exercise. It may or may not determine what you will do in an emergency but it will make the decision you make correct for you under the circumstances that exist at the time.

I have no doubt that some responders will put their families first and that others will do their jobs as long as they can. People will almost always do what they are trained and used to doing. It will be a tough decision and we will each make it with the best intentions. I do pray that none of you make a decision that you later have to regret.

May God bless us all ( or may the universe reward you with good fortune if you lack faith in God. (the standard answer is: It doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not, He believes in you) I respect the thoughtfulness in the remarks and see the future of our great nation right here on these (and other) forums.

blessings of health, wealth and happiness to all of us.

For all the lovers out there: Happy Valentines Day!

Mish, where ever you are you are in my thoughts today!


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## warrior4 (Oct 16, 2013)

Being a Paramedic, and coincidentally writing this post from the seat of my ambulance between calls, I can tell you it's a very tough question and one I've thought about quite a bit. If the SHTF in my area I can just about guarantee I'd be called in to work. The thing that worries me is the kind of SHTF scenario. Major weather, terrorist attack, or something contained within a city or region like a hurricane, blizzard, or major accident/attack, yes you can bet I'd be on the front lines and I'll be there for as long as I can. During Hurricane Sandy my company here in Michigan sent three Ambulance crews to help out in the NYC area. It really is amazing the amount of resources that can be brought to bear for an incident on that kind of scale.

What concerns me is if there is something that affects the entire nation. If everywhere is hit and everywhere is overwhelmed. How long do I stay and help and at what point do I say,"this is nuts," and focus on helping strangers to protecting my family? A nation wide pandemic, Yellowstone blowing its top, EMP, a total financial collapse. Those are the scenarios that I could see running along those lines. Luckily those are also among the least probable events to occur when compared to natural disasters or a major accident somewhere. 

To me it would really depend on the size and scope of the incident. How many people are initially affected? Is the event on going or has the initial disaster struck and we're now just dealing with aftermath? How soon can State or Federal resources get on hand and what resources will there be? To make a blanket decision about everything seems foolish to me. It's how I and many other First Responders are trained. For instance I don't treat a heart attack the same way I treat an anxiety attack. A Firefighter doesn't use the same tools for extricating a person out of a car as he or she would to put out a house fire. A police officer uses different tactics to search for a missing person vs. pulling over a speeding car. It's the same when thinking about how I would react to a disaster.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

GTGallop said:


> And that is exactly why the TSA has a badge embroidered on their uniforms. They are not LEO. They are not DOD. They are not even a security or regulatory agency. They are an administrative checkpoint with little to no authority to detain or search your belongings. But because they have a "badge" on, people give them more leeway than they would a Walmart greeter and they are largely the same thing. Only difference is that the TSA has a walkie talkie and a support network.
> 
> Not making that point to argue the validity of the TSA. Just using it as an example of how a badge is used to connote authority and bring compliance with out flexing powers they don't have. It borders on abuse. Anyone wearing a badge post SHTF - even a TSA vest - who is not acting under any official decree stands a reasonable chance of abusing the inherent respect most Americans have for a badge.


I guess you underestimate the authority of the TSA. Believe it or not they actually have full arrest authority, search and seizure authority, etc. And depending on the state you live in so do security officers. For example, in Texas we have the same arrest authority as any other citizen, and maybe a little bit less, if I don't have a complainant I can't arrest you for most of the things that fall under my arrest authority, however should I witness someone commit a crime of sufficient severity I can arrest them. Also I can exercise full arrest authority under the direction of LEO.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

IMO it will on depend on the breadth of the disaster and the perceived length of it. There is a big difference between an ice storm that knocks out power, and emergency radio stations are broadcasting that it may take up to 3 months to restore power in your State for example, and a World Wide event with no return to normalcy in sight. 

IMO opinion it is fine and even noble to help others, but the bottom line is family first.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Notsoyoung said:


> IMO opinion it is fine and even noble to help others, but the bottom line is family first.


I try to help as many people during good times (like now) so that I don't have to help them later and so they will see me as having value if there is ever any culling of the heard. Good neighbors in times of peace make better allies in times of war.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> Big difference weather ,natural disaster caused serious life threating issues VS real SHTF. In cases of a storm like Katrina. The last thing you need to be doing is out running nuts in the street . Perpers will for the most part be safe a ok where they are and able to help those close to them. As inapt as they are we would need to remain out of FEMA way and allow them to function. By protecting our own few feet of space by helping those near us we make the Job FEMA will try to do easier.
> Easy to justify defending your space , different issue if you are out running around town trying to assert authority. I know darn well if you come up on me your going to be in a world or trouble. While No desire to confront LE they will not be the deciding factor in what we do or what happens to our supplies.
> The last thing anyone needs is more confusion. This is the beauty of each of us being prepared. Confusion and chaos will be reduced allowing LE to deal with the issues that present themselves. Being prepared we do not use up needed resources either supplies or man power. Boys from the hood want to take what we have good luck again we are prepared for more than just food and water. However again by staying put caring for our self we are less likely to find ourselves dealing with the boys from the hood.
> Total SHTF all bets are off all new rules. We will adjust fire as needed.


Spot on Smitty. In a grid down situation WORL all bets are off and many of us will change tactics. Local temperory situations is best handled from our doorstep. Pretect what is mine first and then help the neighbors. first and formost is to be in place in case the friendly and. I am sure, well meaning boys from the hood should decide to take a page from the occupier and thief and spread some wealth around. From me to them. In which case I will quickly relieve them of the need for supplies at all except maybe a body bag.


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