# Things you should know before the lights go out



## Ralph Rotten

Okay, I just finished up a big project so I can now indulge myself on forums without feeling guilty.

In the past I have talked about the concept of digital prepping; the storage of multimedia and knowledgebase materials on portable devices. But today I'd like to start a thread on digital to analog prepping.

Analog data collection is pretty straight forward: it involves having hard copies of anything important that you will need once the internet goes down. What this thread is about is what kinds of things you should have printed out in a 3-ring binder before that happens.

So here is the first item on that list: Where the real food is!
So we always think about raiding a grocery store in a TEOTWAWKI situation, but then so does everyone else. In fact, by the time you think to even go shopping there will likely be hoards tearing up the shelves. Everyone will have guns and it'll be a madhouse.

But the truth is that grocery stores are insignificant against the firepower of the deathstar...sorry, slipped genres there. Grocery stores are insignificant against a regional distribution center. See, if you have 30 or 40 Krogers stores in your neighborhood (they also go by Fry's and a few other names as well,) then there will likely be a regional center where they order their supplies from. These complexes are massive in scope, and usually more than 10 times the size of a store. Think of a place so big that it has a ten second echo.








This is a Kroger's distribution center. On the outside it looks nondescript. In most cases there is either no name on the building, or it is hidden or subdued. There is nothing externally obvious that this place would be a food meca (other than 1000 empty trailers parked outside.)








This anonymous looking building is full of BEER. You should have this one marked in your GPS.








This massive complex is a Bashas regional distribution center. Although there will be people who will know what is inside of this place, there won;t be nearly as many as the storefront. When the balloon goes up, you should know how to find one of these places. By controlling one of these places you not only ensure your own diet, but it is a source of power. Wanna have some say in how the new world works? Then use a place like this to establish your toehold over the local community.


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## Kauboy

I've actually noted the location of two local food distribution facilities in my general area.
However, in a SHTF situation they are far enough to be considered unreachable.
Also, since stealing isn't my first option, anything left behind after a considerable amount of time to be considered "abandoned" would be limited at best.
Plus, the hundreds of people who work there are going to think of it first, and not the grocery store.


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## Medic33

make sure you have a flashlight in hand or a thermal maybe? 
just palying keep your ah nevermind you did it already.


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## Spice

Around here we call them Silos. They do belong to people, but I bet they'd choose to feed people before pigs (especially people who have five gallon buckets of plantable wheat to trade; that corn and those soybeans are hybrids and won't breed true).

Good thought though...and you crack me up.


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## AquaHull

Ralph Rotten said:


> Okay, I just finished up a big project so I can now indulge myself on forums without feeling guilty.
> 
> In the past I have talked about the concept of digital prepping; the storage of multimedia and knowledgebase materials on portable devices. But today I'd like to start a thread on digital to analog prepping.
> 
> Analog data collection is pretty straight forward: it involves having hard copies of anything important that you will need once the internet goes down. What this thread is about is what kinds of things you should have printed out in a 3-ring binder before that happens.
> 
> So here is the first item on that list: Where the real food is!
> So we always think about raiding a grocery store in a TEOTWAWKI situation, but then so does everyone else. In fact, by the time you think to even go shopping there will likely be hoards tearing up the shelves. Everyone will have guns and it'll be a madhouse.
> 
> But the truth is that grocery stores are insignificant against the firepower of the deathstar...sorry, slipped genres there. Grocery stores are insignificant against a regional distribution center. See, if you have 30 or 40 Krogers stores in your neighborhood (they also go by Fry's and a few other names as well,) then there will likely be a regional center where they order their supplies from. These complexes are massive in scope, and usually more than 10 times the size of a store. Think of a place so big that it has a ten second echo.
> 
> View attachment 11458
> 
> This is a Kroger's distribution center. On the outside it looks nondescript. In most cases there is either no name on the building, or it is hidden or subdued. There is nothing externally obvious that this place would be a food meca (other than 1000 empty trailers parked outside.)
> 
> View attachment 11459
> 
> This anonymous looking building is full of BEER. You should have this one marked in your GPS.
> 
> View attachment 11460
> 
> This massive complex is a Bashas regional distribution center. Although there will be people who will know what is inside of this place, there won;t be nearly as many as the storefront. When the balloon goes up, you should know how to find one of these places. By controlling one of these places you not only ensure your own diet, but it is a source of power. Wanna have some say in how the new world works? Then use a place like this to establish your toehold over the local community.


I'll be waiting for you.


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## Prepared One

I have also noted where the large food distributors are here in Houston. Just figured it may come in handy to know and I have actually done some work and sold some equipment to them. Also have notes on beer and some of the local alcohol distributors are. One must observe the priorities.


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## Maine-Marine

Here is my issue... 

I prep so I will not have to "take advantage" of superstores or distribution centers. I do not want to be out the first few days and I sure do not want to be out the first couple of weeks..and after that it will get worse before it gets better...

I will stay at home and by the time I get passed those places it will be gone or spoiled...

MOst workers are going to have a light bulb go off....HEY I do not have food at home but I work at a place that does..... I am going to go get some food....


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## Dalarast

In Joe Nobody's series _Holding Their Own_ the main character, Bishop, comes across a group of local law enforcement officers and their families who have survived by living in a Walmart distribution center. I forgot the back story behind why they bugged out there (besides the obvious one); but its a clear destination.

BUT normally the local community is going to know about it... basically what Maine-Marine said. They normally employ a significant number of employees who are all going to mark that place FIRST on their supply route. I'm with the majority I will avoid those places...

Brewery and distilleries though...


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## Maine-Marine

Dalarast said:


> Brewery and distilleries though...


If you stock pretzels, peanuts, and other salt snacks... I am sure you could make some trades


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## pheniox17

Ok on topic... I know of all 3 Australian chains food "hubs"

Start with coles... A smallish site, mainly concrete, with 8' high fences, single story, nothing flash

Aldi, large hidden site, 60-70% concrete (the roadway etc) 2 stories, large roller doors (accommodate a prime mover + trailer) large space, med stocked

Woolworths.... This place is a fort, lots of food, lots of green space, large area, good fences, secondary line of fences.... 

My point.... One man can't hope to hold any of these facilities.... One well organised group can... But your looking at numbers past 100 armed people.... PASS... Prefer to live off my preps


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## Ralph Rotten

Maine-Marine said:


> Here is my issue...
> 
> I prep so I will not have to "take advantage" of superstores or distribution centers. I do not want to be out the first few days and I sure do not want to be out the first couple of weeks..and after that it will get worse before it gets better...
> 
> I will stay at home and by the time I get passed those places it will be gone or spoiled...
> 
> MOst workers are going to have a light bulb go off....HEY I do not have food at home but I work at a place that does..... I am going to go get some food....


Okay, it just sounded a lot like a buncha people just said "Naw, I don't need to know where to find a million pounds of food in an emergency."
You must smoke waaaay better weed than I do, because that was a preposterously dumb assertion to make. You are essentially rejecting valuable knowledge just to be contrary.

Anyhow, back to the serious conversation...
It's interesting to scour a town and see all of the resources that are hidden a half mile from the interstate in bland warehouses. Besides food, there are all sorts of distribution centers for every imaginable product. Right now I am scouring the area for a few chemical distributors in case I need to manufacture batteries. We have a big tent distributor in town, that could be handy to know.

So it is interesting what you can learn about your own town by playing with mapquest.


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## Ralph Rotten

Okay, that was one of the things that you would want to have printed out before the lights go out. What kinds of things do y'all keep in hard copy?


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## PaulS

Maps - topographic; recipes - cause I get confused with everything but bread; specs and material lists - for when I want to build something that lasts; reloading data - obviously if I can't remember how to make a cake or biscuits I won't remember my load data; My books on the founding of this grand experiment; contact lists; all my personal history and data; and a bit more. I can tell you where the distribution centers are but I would be willing to bet that the small town they're in wouldn't let you get close to them. I also know where the armory is but then again you probably won't get in there either.


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## Ralph Rotten

"I can tell you where the distribution centers are but I would be willing to bet that the small town they're in wouldn't let you get close to them. I also know where the armory is but then again you probably won't get in there either."


Assumptions. Every scenario is different, and in some you could capitalize on this knowledge, and in others not so much. But it'd be wise to have the knowledge regardless. Besides, as I mentioned, these centers carry more than just food. There are all sorts of goodies in plain brown warehouses. 


I like your list, I never thought of cookbooks. Next on my list is medical guides. I want to put together a small medical library but I know bupkis about the field (I never get sick) so I don't even know what I don't know.


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## PaulS

I don't know your situation but when I was living in Seattle I got to know my doctor well enough that she was a big help in getting some of the supplies that I now have. Getting a medical person to trust you takes time but it can be worth it.


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## OctopusPrime

Where do you think military units will be? I'd be worried about getting sniped approaching a food cache that large. People forget the real world when they think about post social decay...the military will control areas like that...if you think otherwise you are wrong.


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## PaulS

Besides, we prep so we don't have to be raiders.


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## OctopusPrime

Raiding is last resort if starving and I'd be dead if I didn't try.


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## PaulS

I won't fault you for trying to stay alive, but I can't steal to survive. I will work for it, trade for it, beg for it but I cannot steal.


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## OctopusPrime

Would you die of hunger or steal? With nothing to trade, everyone starving so no work or begging to be had...then the option is to steal...would you steal in this situation? I have a great article I just read about a North Korean who escaped and he tells his story...I'll post on a new threa so you can read.


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## pheniox17

Ralph Rotten said:


> Okay, it just sounded a lot like a buncha people just said "Naw, I don't need to know where to find a million pounds of food in an emergency."
> You must smoke waaaay better weed than I do, because that was a preposterously dumb assertion to make. You are essentially rejecting valuable knowledge just to be contrary.
> 
> Anyhow, back to the serious conversation...
> It's interesting to scour a town and see all of the resources that are hidden a half mile from the interstate in bland warehouses. Besides food, there are all sorts of distribution centers for every imaginable product. Right now I am scouring the area for a few chemical distributors in case I need to manufacture batteries. We have a big tent distributor in town, that could be handy to know.
> 
> So it is interesting what you can learn about your own town by playing with mapquest.


Sat maps are good... But your weed must be stronger than mine thinking that those facilities are both soft targets and a original thought....just putting it out there


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## Medic33

Ralph Rotten said:


> *Okay, it just sounded a lot like a buncha people just said "Naw, I don't need to know where to find a million pounds of food in an emergency*."
> You must smoke waaaay better weed than I do, because that was a preposterously dumb assertion to make. You are essentially rejecting valuable knowledge just to be contrary.
> 
> Anyhow, back to the serious conversation...
> It's interesting to scour a town and see all of the resources that are hidden a half mile from the interstate in bland warehouses. Besides food, there are all sorts of distribution centers for every imaginable product. Right now I am scouring the area for a few chemical distributors in case I need to manufacture batteries. We have a big tent distributor in town, that could be handy to know.
> 
> So it is interesting what you can learn about your own town by playing with mapquest.


it's not that it is a bad idea, but everyone in that populated area will be scarfing that place like piranhas It will bring a new meaning the words food fight and the best way to survive is try not to bring attention to yourself going buck wild on a bunch of looters is a good way to end up dead.


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## Medic33

before you think or say nobody knows about it first there are how many workers in there? 
next you figured it out -so can someone else a lot of someone else's. did a secret squirrel knock on the window and say hey check out these nutz, doubtful, it is a viable idea but I doubt the shit will hit hard enough for what ever your plans are.

as far as those being soft targets refer to post above the FOOD FIGHT ONE


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## Prepared One

PaulS said:


> Maps - topographic; recipes - cause I get confused with everything but bread; specs and material lists - for when I want to build something that lasts; reloading data - obviously if I can't remember how to make a cake or biscuits I won't remember my load data; My books on the founding of this grand experiment; contact lists; all my personal history and data; and a bit more. I can tell you where the distribution centers are but I would be willing to bet that the small town they're in wouldn't let you get close to them. I also know where the armory is but then again you probably won't get in there either.


I agree Paul. I know where these places are but they won't be my first choice to look for food. By the time I would get to them I imagine they will be pretty well picked clean. In my situation I would have to go in towards the city to get to them. Won't be worth the risk in most cases. Still, worth noting where they are.


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## Maine-Marine

Ralph Rotten said:


> . You are essentially rejecting valuable knowledge just to be contrary.


Ralph

I know where the food distribution places are at and I know where the battery, tire, pharmacy, dental, etc places are at

what I, and a lot of others are saying is, the other 10,000 people that have lived around the area for 10 plus years also know where they are - as do the workers that work there, the people that deliver there...

HERE IT IS...

people without food will go there first (within a few days) and they will be desperate and ready to steal... I will not be going there because I do not want to put myself at risk....

chances are there will be some law enforcement still around or the management will have decided to protect the place.

KNOWING something and using that knowledge are two different things... I KNOW where to get animal drugs that work for humans.. but I am not going to get them POST SHTF..

I prepare *BEFORE* hand JUST BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT TO *RISK *... trying to get things after... the first weeks will be crazy.....

I will not need to risk my life for peanut butter, eggs, cereal, etc...................

I will be at home watching the riots on TV with my doors locked making sure my family is safe.....

Even if the local government starts handing out food - I will not go.... riots and shoots can happen in a flash... NO SIR.. I might KNOW things... but the thing i know best... people are greedy, selfish, dangerous, and mean..... I will stay home with my popcorn....

NOW if a Hostess trucks run off the road.. that will be a different story


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## Disturbed12404

Ralph, I am glad you brought this up. While many of our veteran preppers here have a strong moral compass and a stronger will to dig in and survive, I disagree with them and agree with your train of thought. These are good to know, and to map out if the time comes you need to do some shopping. We are all here for prepping, obviously. Prepping for the way we don't WANT to live but may have to. I believe this is right along side Gardening and water storage. 

Depending on the type of TEOTWAWKI obviously things are different but I would think, If it really all does fall apart those who don't prep generally all rely on the store themselves. There first thought isn't going to be to steal from work. They will be thinking that it will all get better soon, and they can't just go to work and take what they want. 

The people who own all those goods make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. They aren't going to care about it at that point. It will be. "I can buy my way out of this, here is 2 grand for a frozen turkey". 

If things truly don't get better right away, sure they will have the idea to plunder their job. But it will take a realization that things aren't returning to normality anytime soon. This I think, gives everyone else the upper hand. We're not concerned with losing our job there. 

I wouldn't call it looting, or raiding. 
looting to me is taking things you don't need, taking advantage of the catastrophe 
Raiding In my opinion is taking both what you do and don't need at the cost of another. 

I would define it as surviving. obtaining what you need, at no direct expense of another. 

Of course we would all have to make the judgment call that TEOTWAWKI is happening, which will take more than a day or two depending on the collapse. if you're wrong, jail time for you.


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## PaulS

Disturbed12404 said:


> Ralph, I am glad you brought this up. While many of our veteran preppers here have a strong moral compass and a stronger will to dig in and survive, I disagree with them and agree with your train of thought. These are good to know, and to map out if the time comes you need to do some shopping. We are all here for prepping, obviously. Prepping for the way we don't WANT to live but may have to. I believe this is right along side Gardening and water storage.
> 
> Depending on the type of TEOTWAWKI obviously things are different but I would think, If it really all does fall apart those who don't prep generally all rely on the store themselves. There first thought isn't going to be to steal from work. They will be thinking that it will all get better soon, and they can't just go to work and take what they want.
> 
> The people who own all those goods make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. They aren't going to care about it at that point. It will be. "I can buy my way out of this, here is 2 grand for a frozen turkey".
> 
> If things truly don't get better right away, sure they will have the idea to plunder their job. But it will take a realization that things aren't returning to normality anytime soon. This I think, gives everyone else the upper hand. We're not concerned with losing our job there.
> 
> I wouldn't call it looting, or raiding.
> looting to me is taking things you don't need, taking advantage of the catastrophe
> Raiding In my opinion is taking both what you do and don't need at the cost of another.
> 
> I would define it as surviving. obtaining what you need, at no direct expense of another.
> 
> Of course we would all have to make the judgment call that TEOTWAWKI is happening, which will take more than a day or two depending on the collapse. if you're wrong, jail time for you.


If it is in a warehouse or distribution center it does belong to someone else. You are causing a personal loss to someone else and you may be taking something that might be offered to a family that really needs it.
Somebody has paid for the stuff. That person might open the doors to give the food out in a responsible and charitable act. Taking it without the permission of the owner is stealing, raiding or looting. You can try to make it sound better but the fact is you are taking what belongs to another person. As preppers we store food, we grow food, to be self sufficient. We don't want to depend on strangers or the government for handout and we surely don't want to be raiders who take what they need from others. I can get and give support to some neighbors if I need it but in the mean time I will support myself as best I can.


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## Kauboy

Ralph Rotten said:


> So it is interesting what you can learn about your own town by playing with mapquest.


Haha, you said mapquest.
:laughhard:
That site is still up?

I kid, Ralphy, I kid.


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## Kauboy

This boils down to two patterns of thought.
1. Prepare before SHTF
2. Prepare after SHTF

For 1, food and water are stored, and there is no need to run out and take from anyone.
For 2, planning is done to take from others when the world goes to pot.

For 1, these will be safe and secure in their homes with their well fed families.
For 2, these will be fighting and struggling to survive against all the other #2s.

1 will live.
2 will die.

My opinion.


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## RNprepper

You have to realize that Ralph has stated previously that he will also steal open range cattle. His idea of food procurement seems to focus of strategies to take from others, rather than gathering his own. Sorry Ralph, but this kind of activity will put you at greater risk and actually decrease your odds. Looters and cattle rustlers will be shot on sight,_ especially_ in Arizona. You live in the wrong state.


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## Denton

Everyone has the same idea. I don't care if you are talking about the local Walmart or the Walmart distribution center up the road. Unlike the recent riots where the five-finger discounters waddled out of looted stores with a TV under one arm while the other hand was being used to hold up their pants, this sort of scenario will involve properly dressed and armed people intent on getting the right items no matter what it takes.

I don't think so. Besides, I am no thief, and I am no animal.


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## RNprepper

Heck, people get killed on Black Friday just trying to legally purchase a limited sale item. I say let all the looters go at it with each other and if anyone gets killed in the process, it is just reward. You won't find me anywhere near a store full of crazies when the lights go out.


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## Ripon

I don't get it. If you are a prepper and are prepared why do you need to know where anyone else's stuff is?


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## Maine-Marine

Disturbed12404 said:


> I wouldn't call it looting, or raiding.
> looting to me is taking things you don't need, taking advantage of the catastrophe
> Raiding In my opinion is taking both what you do and don't need at the cost of another.
> 
> I would define it as surviving. obtaining what you need, at no direct expense of another.


Lying to yourself is the worse form of dishonesty...It is a sign of mental illness. If you NEED to go out and RAID to survive you have pissed away the time you have now.. you could be prepping... but it seems you will rather risk your life to steal and pillage...

Believe it or not... somebody paid for that food in the center...

I am sadden that we have people on this forum that do not yet GET IT.... They are willing to go out and steal when they could be safe, well fed, and secure...

you should be ashamed of yourself


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## Dalarast

RNprepper said:


> Heck, people get killed on Black Friday just trying to legally purchase a limited sale item. I say let all the looters go at it with each other and if anyone gets killed in the process, it is just reward. You won't find me anywhere near a store full of crazies when the lights go out.


I knew I saved this picture for a reason...


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## paraquack

Dalarast said:


> I knew I saved this picture for a reason...
> 
> View attachment 11479


I pray they don't start eating each other. If they get hungry enough, I seriously wonder how long before...


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## Chipper

I haven't read all the posts but I'll throw this out anyway. 

I know having driven semi for one of those food distribution centers that the trucks are loaded during the night. So if you can drive a REAL truck and get there before they leave you could just take a whole semi load of food. To avoid confusion the keys are in the trucks with the refers running to keep the food fresh. Just saying.


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## Slippy

About 10:30 am today the lights went out. I checked my vehicles and other electronics and it was not an EMT, but I knew the S had done hit the Fan so I was ready. After nearly about an hour and a half deliberating what to do, I began to get nervous and started putting on my gear. As I drove out the road, tacticool as the other side of the pillow, was I embarassed to find the Power Company doing what they do at the street. 

I waved and thanked them but quickly retreated back home. I do not think the linemen even noticed the 2 custom Slippy-Made Pikes sticking out the back of my truck...

I did pop a rabbit who had been freeloading and treating my garden like a SNAP card.. on the way back to Slippy Lodge...


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## Ripon

It's sad to me smart people would waste their precious time planning to take from others rather then preparing not to need. We have a lot of cattle grazing our properties. Our land is intersected with BLM land but we pay for grazing rights for as many cattle as we can and resale those to our neighbors, hence every head belongs to one of us in the area and there are only 5 in the area. I know I'd have no trouble protecting the cattle that belongs to our neighbors.



RNprepper said:


> You have to realize that Ralph has stated previously that he will also steal open range cattle. His idea of food procurement seems to focus of strategies to take from others, rather than gathering his own. Sorry Ralph, but this kind of activity will put you at greater risk and actually decrease your odds. Looters and cattle rustlers will be shot on sight,_ especially_ in Arizona. You live in the wrong state.


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## Medic33

testosterone and the FTW attitude will always end badly


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## Maine-Marine

Disturbed12404 said:


> .
> 
> The people who own all those goods make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. They aren't going to care.....


That right there is the problem with America...

it is ok to take things from them - they are rich............


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## Slippy

Disturbed12404 said:


> ...
> 
> The people who own all those goods make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. They aren't going to care about it at that point. It will be. "I can buy my way out of this, here is 2 grand for a frozen turkey"....


I agree with MM

Disturbed12404,

If I recall you are young so its our job to make sure you are properly educated. Do not buy into this class warfare BS that the socialists have been spouting for a long time now. Your comments above are ridiculous and I hope we at this forum can help you understand the error of your thinking.

Thanks for listening,

Slippy


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## Ralph Rotten

Ooooh, RN Prepper has wounded me to the core! What's funny about it is that in this case my intentions are actually benevolent. See, I have a theory that goes like this: The starving hordes won't be at your back if they're already on your side. I am about much more than merely surviving the apocalypse. For me, prepping and survivalism are a means to perpetuate the species. My entire focus would be on preserving a significant gene pool for future generations. By my way of thinking, there is no point of surviving if you are the only one.

Lots of folks have questioned the accessibility of these distribution centers, but let's run the numbers with a standard scenario:

EARTH ABIDES SCENARIO*
So let's say that we have airborne ebola. Untreated it kills 95% of its victims, and after the second week of the calamity everyone would be essentilly untreated.
Tucson Arizona, population 1 million souls.
That means that after ebola we would have a population of 50000, scattered randomly across a city that is roughly 60x45 miles . 
Now if you drill down on those numbers, and let's say for the sake of argument that 10000 people knew about that Bashas distribution center beforre the world ended. Even with that huuuge number, the statistical odds of those people being among the survivors is terrible. Maybe 500 people...maybe, and many of them [truckers] would likely not even be in towwn when the balloon went up.

Knowledge is power.

*Although Earth Abides is generally considered the grandaddy of all apocalyppse novels, the title actually belongs to Mary Shelly who published LAST MAN in 1826!


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## Kauboy

You just tried to justify this theft by using the worst scenario you could think of that wipes out 95% of your competition. (anything but "standard")
That simply won't happen.
Is it just me, or does this logic seem a little screwy?
Your plan is to do this regardless of the situation, but you base it on only one scenario from a work of fiction.
You justify stealing another's possessions as "benevolence".
You won't be the first person to think of this, and likely won't be the most armed one to show up.

This is a recipe for an early demise.
If your thought is truly on survival, in any sense, this would be a bad decision.


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## Ralph Rotten

Kauboy said:


> You just tried to justify this theft by using the worst scenario you could think of that wipes out 95% of your competition. (anything but "standard")
> That simply won't happen.
> Is it just me, or does this logic seem a little screwy?
> Your plan is to do this regardless of the situation, but you base it on only one scenario from a work of fiction.
> You justify stealing another's possessions as "benevolence".
> You won't be the first person to think of this, and likely won't be the most armed one to show up.
> 
> This is a recipe for an early demise.
> If your thought is truly on survival, in any sense, this would be a bad decision.


Kauboy; did I insult one of your alts or something? 

Yes, I would steal possessions that belonged to people who are likely now dead. That 95% rate would apply to the rich too. And why not? Commandeering essential food stocks to save thousands of people is okay in my book.

As for there being other people who would know bout the place, I agree. I never said it would be easy. But until you have a functioning crystal ball to tell you exacty what scenario you will be facing, you would do well to go into it with as much knowledge as possible. After all, if these centers translated to personal power for you, then imagine them in the hands of your enemies.


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## Arklatex

In my opinion FEMA and other government agencies will be on these facilities quick. I won't need them because my focus is on using my own land to feed and water my family and livestock. Never even thought of something like this but I will agree it's good info to know if you're in the city.

Other info I keep hard copies of:

Medical guides

Homesteading books

Home repair guides 

Tradeskill books for electrician, carpentry, mechanical, auto repair, etc

Survival books

Orienteering books

Animal husbandry books

Gunsmith books amd reloading manuals 

Field guides for edible plants

Cookbooks 

Food preserving books like canning and dehydrator guides.

I don't have enough experience to remember all this stuff off the top of my head so I keep a library I can reference.


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## Maine-Marine

Ralph Rotten;295958
EARTH ABIDES SCENARIO*
So let's say that we have airborne ebola. Untreated it kills 95% of its victims said:


> would likely not even be in town when the balloon went up.
> 
> Knowledge is power.


I wrote a paper on Ebola in college... IF (and it is not) Ebola was airborne it would take longer then 2 weeks for it to kill a city... It would have to start with 1 person..somebody driving through town or landing at the airport or getting off a ship... from there it would spread... 1 gives it to 2 or 3 .. it would take a minimum of 30 days to get most people in Tucson. (and it would not stay there - )

We would hear about it within 2 - 3 weeks...but it would not be rocking and rolling for a month

Many folks would start refusing to deliver goods to cities, the government would start taking food supplies for shelters.

In your scenario - the food wold be gone...either it would be sold and not replenished or seized


----------



## Kauboy

Ralph Rotten said:


> Kauboy; did I insult one of your alts or something?
> 
> Yes, I would steal possessions that belonged to people who are likely now dead. That 95% rate would apply to the rich too. And why not? Commandeering essential food stocks to save thousands of people is okay in my book.
> 
> As for there being other people who would know bout the place, I agree. I never said it would be easy. But until you have a functioning crystal ball to tell you exacty what scenario you will be facing, you would do well to go into it with as much knowledge as possible. After all, if these centers translated to personal power for you, then imagine them in the hands of your enemies.


That 95% rate is fictional.
There has never been any scenario throughout history that wiped out 95% of a human population. (Noah's flood, maybe)
If you had said, "this is one of my plans, in case the vast majority of the population is obliterated", that would have been one thing.
But you passed this off as a plan that will be implemented regardless of the trigger even.
Proper planning means you've take the worst into account, FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES.
You assume the worst is 95% die off.
You ignore that the worst could be 100% survival, and a massive population roaming the streets looking for help/food/water.
Plan for both.
For me, I have. Staying home and protecting my own with the stock I have is my plan, and I don't need a die off to justify my actions.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Maine*: Actually you are wrong! Airborne Ebola has been in the united states twice. Fortunately it was monkey virus, but it scared the living hell outta the CDC...so much so that the second time it came back they levelled the entire building. Read: The Hot Zone. Fascinating book.

Kauboy: Salil, is that you?
I picked 95% fatal rate because the original version of Ebola Zaire was reported to be 92% effective if left untreated. I just added 3% to it for sake of the argument. But to date, no virus has been found to be 100% effective. Possibly one of the designer viruses escaping from a research facility may have a 99% death rate...but the rest of your arguments are circular.



*May I call you by your first name?


----------



## Maine-Marine

Ralph Rotten said:


> Maine*: Actually you are wrong! Airborne Ebola has been in the united states twice. Fortunately it was monkey virus, but it scared the living hell outta the CDC...so much so that the second time it came back they levelled the entire building. Read: The Hot Zone. Fascinating book.


You were discussing Ebola and humans not Ebola Reston (named after Reston Virginia) and monkeys.. Ebola reston has zero effect on humans (ok they might get a headache but that was not 100% proven)

They did not level the building to get rid of it 0They may have torn it down later)... they heated up bleach and other chemicals and sealed off the building and for a short period of time... it was the only place in the world where NOTHING was alive.

So Ebola (Marburg or Zaire) is not airborne..........yet


----------



## Maine-Marine

Ralph Rotten said:


> Maine*: Actually you are wrong! Airborne Ebola has been in the united states twice. Fortunately it was monkey virus, but it scared the living hell outta the CDC...so much so that the second time it came back they levelled the entire building. Read: The Hot Zone. Fascinating book.
> 
> Kauboy: Salil, is that you?
> I picked 95% fatal rate because the original version of Ebola Zaire was reported to be 92% effective if left untreated. I just added 3% to it for sake of the argument. But to date, no virus has been found to be 100% effective. Possibly one of the designer viruses escaping from a research facility may have a 99% death rate...but the rest of your arguments are circular.
> 
> *May I call you by your first name?


Actually.... one virus is 99.999999999% only 3 people have ever been reported to survive it..............

Rabies


----------



## Denton

Ralph Rotten said:


> Maine*: Actually you are wrong! Airborne Ebola has been in the united states twice. Fortunately it was monkey virus, but it scared the living hell outta the CDC...so much so that the second time it came back they levelled the entire building. Read: The Hot Zone. Fascinating book.
> 
> Kauboy: Salil, is that you?
> I picked 95% fatal rate because the original version of Ebola Zaire was reported to be 92% effective if left untreated. I just added 3% to it for sake of the argument. But to date, no virus has been found to be 100% effective. Possibly one of the designer viruses escaping from a research facility may have a 99% death rate...but the rest of your arguments are circular.
> 
> *May I call you by your first name?


Careful. If a fire is started, I look for the one who threw the match.


----------



## Kauboy

Ralph Rotten said:


> Kauboy: Salil, is that you?
> I picked 95% fatal rate because the original version of Ebola Zaire was reported to be 92% effective if left untreated. I just added 3% to it for sake of the argument. But to date, no virus has been found to be 100% effective. Possibly one of the designer viruses escaping from a research facility may have a 99% death rate...but the rest of your arguments are circular.


Don't know who that is...
You picked 95% because that death rate is the only way you can think to justify this action.
My argument is reality.
We won't see a 95% die off. That is fiction.
You are using fiction to justify real world theft.


----------



## Disturbed12404

Maine-Marine said:


> Lying to yourself is the worse form of dishonesty...It is a sign of mental illness. If you NEED to go out and RAID to survive you have pissed away the time you have now.. you could be prepping... but it seems you will rather risk your life to steal and pillage...
> 
> Believe it or not... somebody paid for that food in the center...
> 
> I am sadden that we have people on this forum that do not yet GET IT.... They are willing to go out and steal when they could be safe, well fed, and secure...
> 
> you should be ashamed of yourself


I'm not sure how I am being dishonest with myself Maine. My definitions are different from yours apparently and that makes me wrong. Followed by an accusation that I must suffer from a Mental illness. This sounds so familiar. The way I see it there are two ways to prep.

1) Devote your entire life, time and finances into something that may not happen in your lifetime. There are stories of people on here who never go out and do things because they devote EVERYTHING to their preps. That in my opinion, is stupid.

2) spend smaller amounts of time on your preps, doing what you can when you can. But still putting time and money into the life you currently live and enjoying the good times while they're still here.

I like to go by the second one, I am not going to have a boring life just so when the world ends I can be a little happier but still miserable. I plan on prepping when I can spare the time and money. Sure, I'm putting stores away slowly. But I'm no fool. If it does happen soon, Or even in my lifetime. I have no problem taking what I NEED to feed me and mine.

It doesn't matter much, Cause when the time comes and I am cracking open a case of beef stew, I wont remember this conversation. My belly will be full and my conscience clean. But I will be Ashamed, ashamed that I ate the whole can by myself.


----------



## Kauboy

Disturbed, the option you choose will put you at a greater risk of death when you attempt to take what isn't yours.
You might be perfectly fine with that.
However, you're going to be a father soon. Will that child be fine with it?


----------



## Maine-Marine

Disturbed12404 said:


> I wouldn't call it looting, or raiding.
> looting to me is taking things you don't need, taking advantage of the catastrophe
> Raiding In my opinion is taking both what you do and don't need at the cost of another.
> 
> I would define it as surviving. obtaining what you need, at no direct expense of another.


The above is what you said....

You can call it whatever YOU want.....

A wise man once said -"If my cat had kittens in the oven, I would not call them biscuits!"


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## Jakthesoldier

I didn't read all the comments, but I have a question. 
If there is no power, how will your GPS work? The server on the other side of the satellite will be down. 

Also, if the grid goes down by emp, kiss the satellites goodbye.


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## Jakthesoldier

Looting=stealing for profit from non occupied locations.
Raiding= stealing from profit from occupied locations, often violent.
Scavenging=taking found items from ABANDONED locations NOT claimed by others.


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## Disturbed12404

I guess we can get me a 1 way ticket to hell for my immorality in wanting to take what isn't mine from a corporation that would no longer be of importance. 

Maine, Jak here has different definitions then you and I. Maybe you should tell him that he is being dishonest with himself and that he has a mental illness. 

I see different options with said child. 

1) I don't try and find additional food so my child has more than enough calories to grow, and he/she dies
2) I get caught, shot, dead and looted. my child doesn't get anything to eat, he/she dies
3) I prep as best as I can to have minimal food to ration a toddler until they're grown. 

You all get up and go to work, doctors, shopping everyday don't you? You run a risk of death every time you leave the house. Acceptable risks.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

I didn't make any judgement to the morality of any of the above mentioned actions. I simply defined them using the commonly accepted meanings. 

Also, I'm not sure if it was this thread or not, but I called out Maine on believing he won't steal when he is starving. Having actually been in a starving situation or two myself, I feel I am equipped with the knowledge to make such a statement.

If I am hungry, I will find a way to eat. If my family is hungry I will find a way to feed them. I will do everything in my power to make choices now and in the future to ensure that I am able to always take the moral high ground, but I acknowledge that it may not always be possible.


----------



## Medic33

evey time I see this thread all I can think is 
know were the light switch is so you can turn them back on-I know Shame on me.


----------



## PaulS

Yeah, I was going to say - "You should know where the flash lights are..." but I decided to contribute instead.


----------



## 1skrewsloose

Makes me wonder about the words "the meek shall inherit the earth". I'm balls to the walls, get out of my way!! Talk about tough times, Donner party which was for sure religious and God fearing, did what they felt they had to do!! Self-preservation commands what one must do. It's in our genes. Throw ethics and all the PC crap out the window. jmo!  Has happened in plane crashes in the Andes.


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## Maine-Marine

Jakthesoldier said:


> I called out Maine on believing he won't steal when he is starving. Having actually been in a starving situation or two myself, I feel I am equipped with the knowledge to make such a statement.


Some people will kill you for your shoes, other would give you their last piece of bread

Not sure HOW you think you can tell me I would steal if I was starving when you have no clue WHO I AM or who my King is

Just because you are weak willed - do not assume that everybody has the same moral deficiency that you do or that values life the same as you do...

For us folks that really believe Jesus is real - THIS WORLD is like a rest area on a road trip... it is just a pit stop


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## Maine-Marine

1skrewsloose said:


> Makes me wonder about the words "the meek shall inherit the earth". I'm balls to the walls, get out of my way!! Talk about tough times, Donner party which was for sure religious and God fearing, did what they felt they had to do!! Self-preservation commands what one must do. It's in our genes. Throw ethics and all the PC crap out the window. jmo!  Has happened in plane crashes in the Andes.


Do not try to make the exception, the rule.

Here is the deal guys....IMHO... if you do not think there are moral absolutes based on a Judeo-Christian Deity...., looting and robbing and stealing are the least of your problems.

Heck live it up... your only here once right...


----------



## Medic33

1skrewsloose said:


> Makes me wonder about the words "the meek shall inherit the earth". I'm balls to the walls, get out of my way!! Talk about tough times, Donner party which was for sure religious and God fearing, did what they felt they had to do!! Self-preservation commands what one must do. It's in our genes. Throw ethics and all the PC crap out the window. jmo!  Has happened in plane crashes in the Andes.


we are or were the meek compared to the other animals we are not fast nor strong, have now claws or fangs, and defiantly no venom. with your bare hands how long would you last in a pit against a tiger ,bear, or cobra?


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## Medic33

Maine-Marine said:


> Some people will kill you for your shoes, other would give you their last piece of bread
> 
> Not sure HOW you think you can tell me I would steal if I was starving when you have no clue WHO I AM or who my King is
> 
> Just because you are weak willed - do not assume that everybody has the same moral deficiency that you do or that values life the same as you do...
> 
> For us folks that really believe Jesus is real - THIS WORLD is like a rest area on a road trip... it is just a pit stop


sorry maine ,but if you believe that so strongly then why do you prep? does the sparrow worry about tomorrow? just asking is all no harm.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

Maine-Marine said:


> Some people will kill you for your shoes, other would give you their last piece of bread
> 
> Not sure HOW you think you can tell me I would steal if I was starving when you have no clue WHO I AM or who my King is
> 
> Just because you are weak willed - do not assume that everybody has the same moral deficiency that you do or that values life the same as you do...
> 
> For us folks that really believe Jesus is real - THIS WORLD is like a rest area on a road trip... it is just a pit stop


Dude, seriously, give it up. You are the least holy person I've met. You are self deluded and self serving. If sounding super cool on an Internet forum by making yourself out to be some super Christian is your goal, at least try not saying stupid stuff like you didn't "have" to sit through Sunday service because your wife wrecked the minivan.


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## BagLady

"My entire focus would be on preserving a significant gene pool"...(Rotten Ralph)

God help us. Would that preservation be at gun point? 
Anyone who will steal food, rather than grow their own, would not stop at "taking" a woman, in the interest of "preserving" their own gene pool.


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## Medic33

ahh damn, that would suck rotten tomatoes.


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## Medic33

with all those tattoo's why doesn't someone ever get the 10 commandments tattooed on the inside of their forearm that way they sure as hell can't say they forgot them.


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## Maine-Marine

Medic33 said:


> sorry maine ,but if you believe that so strongly then why do you prep? does the sparrow worry about tomorrow? just asking is all no harm.


It says the man who does not take care of his family is worse then a heathen and it encourages being prepped


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## Maine-Marine

Jakthesoldier said:


> Dude, seriously, give it up. You are the least holy person I've met. You are self deluded and self serving. If sounding super cool on an Internet forum by making yourself out to be some super Christian is your goal, at least try not saying stupid stuff like you didn't "have" to sit through Sunday service because your wife wrecked the minivan.


There is this wonderful thing called HUMOR and making light of bad situations... I was already at Church and had been teaching a class. I am surprised i have to explain this too you - I think most people on here understood it was said tongue in cheek

But I guess you are right...I will have to be more careful about what I say... if it makes you stumble it is wrong and i apologize that it had that effect


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## Maine-Marine

Jakthesoldier said:


> Dude


And you have earned the SUPER COOL benefit of being ignored because you are rude, insulting, and a heathen... GOOD DAY SIR


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## hawgrider

Maine-Marine said:


> And you have earned the SUPER COOL benefit of being ignored because *you are rude, insulting, and a heathen*... GOOD DAY SIR


Pot calling the kettle black.:rofl3:


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## Deebo

Only on page eight, but adding to my list of people who are definitely untrustworthy, and would would end up on a spike in Slippys driveway.


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## Deebo

Hmm, always back to the question of "is it ok to rob/ murder if your starving"?
Well, I will die a hungry begger, trying to work or trade for food, rather than being a low life theif. So, I guess it's ok TODAY for some "starving father of three kids" to walk up behind you and put two .45 peircings in your skullcap, all becouse they have mouths to feed?
Seriously, justifying your intentions to yourself is kinda like PREMEDITATED MURDER isn't it?


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## PrepperLite

OP, I don't think it's a bad idea to know where resources are in case of some catastrophic event, but like others have said this target may not be as soft as you imply&#8230; the time window for such procurement without substantial risk vs reward would be very small&#8230; in my opinion.



Medic33 said:


> we are or were the meek compared to the other animals we are not fast nor strong, have now claws or fangs, and defiantly no venom. with your bare hands how long would you last in a pit against a tiger ,bear, or cobra?


Apples and Oranges... How would a cobra fare if you took its fangs/venom? Bear/Tiger without claws/teeth/bulk? You are right... we are nothing without our weapons (which was provided by our intelligence / cause and effect of nature).... and they are nothing without theirs... Put me in the ring with a weapon, which our species earned as much as theirs, and I'll show you that we would do well against any of the above listed.


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## Maine-Marine

Deebo said:


> Hmm, always back to the question of "is it ok to rob/ murder if your starving"?
> Well, I will die a hungry begger, trying to work or trade for food, rather than being a low life theif. So, I guess it's ok TODAY for some "starving father of three kids" to walk up behind you and put two .45 peircings in your skullcap, all becouse they have mouths to feed?
> Seriously, justifying your intentions to yourself is kinda like PREMEDITATED MURDER isn't it?


Agree 100%

here is the BIGGER question - On what day is it ok to start killing? ... after you are hungry for 2 days, 5 days, 8 days?

Is it ok to kill a man on day 3?
Kill a family on day 6?
Kill a pregnant lady on day 9?

DEEBO is correct " justifying your intentions to yourself is kinda like PREMEDITATED MURDER"


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## Kauboy

This discussion is starting to skew a bit.
We aren't talking about murdering in order to steal.
Ralph made no mention of killing people in order to take their stuff.
I still don't agree that he should hit a facility like this, but I will support the fact that he never mentioned killing anyone.
Let's not get off topic too much.


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## Deebo

So robbing is ok, but not murdering?
Ok, back on topic, I would look for resources, like trade worthy farmers, expand your friends, to include a welder, a plumber, a hunter, a few like minded individuals, so if, after the big panic, you know who is a man, and who is to be avoided at all costs. 
If I die today, I'm prepared, if I die tomorrow, I'm prepared. 
If I live in an apocalyptic world, I'm trying to prepare. 
If I die at the age of ninety, with a shed full of camping gear, yen grandkids, and happy heart, then I'm prepared.


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## RNprepper

I see two options. If you believe in an afterlife and that choices you make here on earth make a difference for eternity, then prepping means taking care of your family but without sacrificing your values. It may even have an altruistic element in aiding others. Life on earth is a short journey toward something much greater. There is accountability after death for actions done on earth. Life has a greater purpose than simply existing.

If you do not believe in an afterlife, then you must accept that your death is the final chapter. When SHTF, why on earth would you want to survive any longer than is comfortable? Just end it all. What is the point of robbing, stealing or compromising basic integrity simply to eke out a few more days, weeks, months or even years of existence in a world that is not going to be very nice? I guess if there is no belief in accountability or greater purpose than existence, then reverting to pure animal-like survival instinct is all that is left.


----------



## Maine-Marine

RNprepper said:


> I see two options. If you believe in an afterlife and that choices you make here on earth make a difference for eternity, then prepping means taking care of your family but without sacrificing your values. It may even have an altruistic element in aiding others. Life on earth is a short journey toward something much greater. There is accountability after death for actions done on earth. Life has a greater purpose than simply existing.
> 
> If you do not believe in an afterlife, then you must accept that your death is the final chapter. When SHTF, why on earth would you want to survive any longer than is comfortable? Just end it all. What is the point of robbing, stealing or compromising basic integrity simply to eke out a few more days, weeks, months or even years of existence in a world that is not going to be very nice? I guess if there is no belief in accountability or greater purpose than existence, then reverting to pure animal-like survival instinct is all that is left.


yep........


----------



## Jakthesoldier

Kauboy said:


> This discussion is starting to skew a bit.
> We aren't talking about murdering in order to steal.
> Ralph made no mention of killing people in order to take their stuff.
> I still don't agree that he should hit a facility like this, but I will support the fact that he never mentioned killing anyone.
> Let's not get off topic too much.


So are you suggesting that they should be left where they are forever? The guy who owns them sure as hell isn't coming for them.


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## Medic33

where's the condom?


----------



## Jakthesoldier

Maine-Marine said:


> And you have earned the SUPER COOL benefit of being ignored because you are rude, insulting, and a heathen... GOOD DAY SIR


Incredibly judgemental for a man who claims to follow Jesus. All that judge not lest ye be judged stuff? And making jokes at God's expense? Shameful for someone who claims to be so pious. 
If I'm a heathen and you are a Christian, are you not bound by faith to try and sway me from my wicked ways?
I'm not, incidentally, a heathen, but feel free to believe whatever you like on the matter.


----------



## Medic33

no jack I think it started as pointing out that EVERY ONE will be hitting that place and all it will be is one gigantic FOOD FIGHT so it would be better just to hunker down in place or get the hell out of dodge.


----------



## RNprepper

Jakthesoldier said:


> So are you suggesting that they should be left where they are forever? The guy who owns them sure as hell isn't coming for them.


Ralph was talking about making a raid on these places as a _first _line action, not scrounging out whatever stuff can be found after places are abandoned and owners are gone and/or dead.


----------



## Medic33

Jakthesoldier said:


> Incredibly judgemental for a man who claims to follow Jesus. All that judge not lest ye be judged stuff? And making jokes at God's expense? Shameful for someone who claims to be so pious.
> If I'm a heathen and you are a Christian, are you not bound by faith to try and sway me from my wicked ways?
> I'm not, incidentally, a heathen, but feel free to believe whatever you like on the matter.


no jack I am not bound to turn you from your heathen ways -God gave us free will- all I am supposed to do is tell you that there is only one GOD.

thanks RN I need the back up there.


----------



## Deebo

When the "everything is up for grabs" news gets out, people will be looting, robbing, raping and partying. After a day or three, the shootings and paybacks for the shootings, then the food fighting will start. 
People go apeshit crazy over a big screen tv for two bills, think about when there are no police or rules. 
I will be home, defending my little slice of earth, and my kids. 
You guys can do all the looting/recovering/thievery you want, but, REMEMBER, there may be snipers behind every blade of grass. 
Kinda interesting, this discussion, and the book One Year After .


----------



## Kauboy

Jakthesoldier said:


> So are you suggesting that they should be left where they are forever? The guy who owns them sure as hell isn't coming for them.


If you want my suggestions, go back and read them. I made them quite clear.
I made no suggestions in the post you quoted.
I think RN handled the retort quite well.

Attempting a day one "raid" on these facilities is not a good idea.
Aside from the immoral act of taking what isn't yours while the owners still hold rightful claim, you assume a high risk of dying while doing so.
You aren't much good to your family if you're dead, despite your intentions.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

Medic33 said:


> no jack I am not bound to turn you from your heathen ways -God gave us free will- all I am supposed to do is tell you that there is only one GOD.
> 
> thanks RN I need the back up there.


Weird. My bible disagrees.
BIBLE VERSES ABOUT PREACHING THE GOSPEL
Funny, thing about that free will... it gives you the option to not do what you are supposed to, but doesn't make it ok to do so.

Romans 6:1-7


----------



## Jakthesoldier

As a first line, I agree it would be an immoral decision. I disagree that it would be dangerous to do so, or that lots of other people would be there. 

Most people don't know these places exist, or where they are.

Remember, we live in a nation where people use the argument against hunting "killing animals is barbaric. Why not just go get meat from the grocery store where no animals were harmed?"

My point is, if we reach a SHTF where the food supply lines shut down, the last thing on the owner's mind is going to be his national distribution centers. MAYBE the one nearest where he/she lives, but the rest? Fat chance. 

Until smart people remember these facilities, weeks down the road, they will be abandoned, and likely see a great deal of spoilage, which will further deter people from seeking what is inside. Think about it, the people who work there won't be staying. They will grab what they can and get home ASAP just like everyone else.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

Medic33 said:


> with all those tattoo's why doesn't someone ever get the 10 commandments tattooed on the inside of their forearm that way they sure as hell can't say they forgot them.


Curious as to which commandment, specifically, you are referring?


----------



## Jakthesoldier

Kauboy said:


> If you want my suggestions, go back and read them. I made them quite clear.
> I made no suggestions in the post you quoted.
> I think RN handled the retort quite well.
> 
> Attempting a day one "raid" on these facilities is not a good idea.
> Aside from the immoral act of taking what isn't yours while the owners still hold rightful claim, you assume a high risk of dying while doing so.
> You aren't much good to your family if you're dead, despite your intentions.


Sorry, I either misread your post, or quoted the wrong post. Can't figure out which post I was trying to post so I must have misread.

My point was disputing whether or not to go at all, ever.

To reiterate my PERSONAL position however, I will be very few places others will be, as few as possible. My interactions with others will not come before weeks of observation to ensure I understand the dynamic of whatever group I decide to attempt contact with.

Now this part may be way off topic, but I think it's related.

Once the S has finished HingTF. And things "normalize" there will, assuming a total EOTWAWKI, be many, scattered, scared, struggling groups. It will take large amounts of effort to maintain these groups and possibly more to get them to pool together to rebuild a larger society. I intend to work as a go between to help establish trade and cooperation, eventually bringing small groups together and then larger groups.

In order to accomplish this I understand that sometimes greater good means my services will be unavailable to "undesirables" ie. Raiding groups, bandits, theives, etc.

What I have yet to determine with my own personal moral compass, is what to do to ensure they are not reintegrated to society. 
Half of me says two wrongs don't make a right. 
Half of me is a soldier who sees them as the enemy that must be destroyed, so that which is good may flourish.


----------



## RNprepper

Good considerations, Jak. Most people have not thought that far down the road.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

I apologize for the hijack and "pissing contest"

My faith is my own, and no matter how many people agree or disagree it is not a subject I will post on. Ask me directly and I will answer.

My issue is with those who pretend to be of a higher caliber than everyone else because of their faith. The hypocrites. 

I'm not perfect. I do not firmly adhere to my belief system, as it were. 

I do absolutely believe we should do the best we can with what we have, that we will mess up, and that we must push on, no matter what.

Now seriously, what do we do about dead GPS if the servers are down, or EMP knocks out the satellites?


----------



## Maine-Marine

Jakthesoldier said:


> Weird. My bible disagrees.
> BIBLE VERSES ABOUT PREACHING THE GOSPEL
> Funny, thing about that free will... it gives you the option to not do what you are supposed to, but doesn't make it ok to do so.
> 
> Romans 6:1-7


you skipped the verse that said SOME ARE TO BE PREACHERS, SOME TO BE TEACHERS, SOME TO BE EVANGELISTS...

Sometimes preacing the gospel is about how you live your life... and for you..... the bible says..do not cast your pearls before swine


----------



## Jakthesoldier

Maine-Marine said:


> you skipped the verse that said SOME ARE TO BE PREACHERS, SOME TO BE TEACHERS, SOME TO BE EVANGELISTS...
> 
> Sometimes preacing the gospel is about how you live your life... and for you..... the bible says..do not cast your pearls before swine


So... you are swine?


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## Jakthesoldier

Seriously though.

GPS, no satellites, map markers gone? What's your plan?


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## Medic33

randomness that's my plan that and stay the hell away from other people.

so the religious questions (PAULS shut up)
1) what is the difference between an angel and a demon?
2) WHY doesn't God walk with man like he did in the old days?
3) why did the apostles live such a harsh and rigorous life and most died horribly?


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## Jakthesoldier

1. Serve in heaven/reign in hell
2. Tickets are cheaper so make em harder to get.
3. The world was not ready for new religion, martyr stories are the quickest way to get people on board, ESPECIALLY, when you put up with so much without breaking.


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## Jakthesoldier

So really? Nobody wants to touch the GPS thing?


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## Medic33

ahh, good points jack but no.


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## RNprepper

Jakthesoldier said:


> Seriously though.
> 
> GPS, no satellites, map markers gone? What's your plan?


I have extensive road maps and topo maps of all the areas we would be in. Map and compass work fine for me. Never have used a GPS. Ever.


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## Jakthesoldier

I'd be curious to hear your answers without mine being their basis.

I was slightly cryptic.

Demons are the angels who elected to follow Satan (then Lucifer) in his rebellion against God. Many under the premise that they would rule with him in Hell. 

Prior to Christ's resurrection, salvation was obtained through sacrifice. Follow the laws of Leviticus, make sacrifices when you fail, or go to hell. God no longer "walks among man" because the ultimate sacrifice has already been paid, and God requires only faith in that sacrifice to enter heaven. Faith does not require satisfaction of the 5 senses. It is easy to believe in gravity, when you knock something over, it falls. It is harder to take the word of people who came before you, which ties into the third question.

To develop a solid foundation to the resurrection story, the world needed men so devout in their belief so as to sway those of other faiths to question what was so wonderful about God and Jesus, that they would cast aside any comfort in this world in order to achieve lasting salvation after death. God could have made their lives plentiful to show how wonderful he was, but instead chose to provide temptation for his followers to resist.

Not falling to temptation is the sacrifice God asks of his followers. To make us stronger, he gives us obstacles we CAN overcome. To make us wiser, he makes us see how foolish we are. To make us more devout, he gives us doubt and asks us to abandon it.

Our struggles are not crises, but opportunities to become greater than we are. 

The disciples struggled to show the world that there absolutely was something worth achieving, and how to achieve it. 

As the world falls to despair and to islam, we are reminded of these lessons in the Christians in the middle east, dying horrible gruesome deaths rather than denying God. Suffering for their faith in ways our nightmares don't don't dare tread.
The Christian people of the world are renewing their faith, and redevoting their lives to God to honor Him for the reminder of just how good we have it.
We, a people given to drinking, drugging, smoking, tattoos, pre/extra marital sexual activity, etc. 

And no, I'm not minding the splinter, I do all the things I mentioned. I am aware of my sin and my shirtcomings. I make NO claim to be more holy than another. (However I'm more than happy to rip people from their high horses)

I don't care what anyone believes, I challenge EVERYONE'S faith. Because defending one's faith is the best way to better understand it. Realizing what you don't have an answer for and finding it. 
Personally, I LOVE not having an answer, seeking it out, learning, and then moving on to knowing.


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## Jakthesoldier

RNprepper said:


> I have extensive road maps and topo maps of all the areas we would be in. Map and compass work fine for me. Never have used a GPS. Ever.


Holy Crap! Thank you. Obviously I was looking for this answer, but I really have had people try and tell me GPS won't go down. And since the OP mentioned marking these on your Google maps and GPS, I figured I'd see who has a backup plan.

Now the real kicker:

What the crap do we do if there is a terrain changing earthquake?


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## Medic33

well I bored and in patent so he is the answer I as given.

1 )angels and demons; both have been in the presence of God, both have seen God, both know God, when God commands an angel to do something they do it no questions -when God commands a demon they say F-you.
2.) because every time God has given us something to do or teach we F it up.
2.) because there is something greater than this earth waiting for us because each of the disciples smiled as they died knowing what was waiting for them. 
just what I was told that after I though about it sounded good.


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## Medic33

damn I sound like English is my second language aarrrrrrrrrggggghhhhh I hate this keyboard.


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## Jakthesoldier

Lol, like I said, you can't answer these without including my answer. 

Except the second one, your response gives me something to ponder. However, for now, I counter with if we always f it up, why do we still get angels?


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## RNprepper

Jakthesoldier said:


> Holy Crap! Thank you. Obviously I was looking for this answer, but I really have had people try and tell me GPS won't go down. And since the OP mentioned marking these on your Google maps and GPS, I figured I'd see who has a backup plan.
> 
> Now the real kicker:
> 
> What the crap do we do if there is a terrain changing earthquake?


Such as the San Andreas fault? That's easy! If you live in Arizona you now own beach front property! Go swimming!


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## Jakthesoldier

RNprepper said:


> Such as the San Andreas fault? That's easy! If you live in Arizona you now own beach front property! Go swimming!


Lmao. Of course, but in such an event that creates valleys where mountains were, and mountains from plains, swamps in deserts, frozen tundras on tropical islands. That type of thing. Assuming, of course, people survived


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## RNprepper

Jakthesoldier said:


> Lmao. Of course, but in such an event that creates valleys where mountains were, and mountains from plains, swamps in deserts, frozen tundras on tropical islands. That type of thing. Assuming, of course, people survived


Pray. Hard. If you die, oh well, it was coming anyway. If you live, you will adapt - until you die.


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## Jakthesoldier

Lol, ok extreme.

Now, what about a magnetic shift? Significant enough to render a compass useless, but not enough to disturb anything else?


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## RNprepper

Jakthesoldier said:


> Lol, ok extreme.
> 
> Now, what about a magnetic shift? Significant enough to render a compass useless, but not enough to disturb anything else?


Oh boy, now we're talking! when the earth flips its magnetic field, there is a strong possibility that it could take several days for the protective magnetic field to become fully established. In the meantime, the earth would be highly vulnerable to the sun's unrelenting flow of geomagnetic energy, not to speak of coronal mass ejections. The entire atmosphere of the earth could be sucked up, the oceans would evaporate, and we would look like Mars. Such an event is precisely what some scientists think happened to Mars. I guess you might say that the prophesies of 2nd Peter would come true quite literally. Heat so intense that the elements melt and the heavens rolled back like a scroll. A useless compass would be the least of our worries.


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## Jakthesoldier

No lol, if that happened we are all screwed, the atmosphere would be released and the surface scorched.

I'm suggesting just a malalignment. Just enough to render the compass useless, but not affect anything else (understood, this is hypothetical and impossible according to currently accepted physics theories)


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## Medic33

Jakthesoldier said:


> Lol, like I said, you can't answer these without including my answer.
> 
> Except the second one, your response gives me something to ponder. However, for now, I counter with if we always f it up, why do we still get angels?


-also on"1 they both still obey Gods will-even thought the demon says F'you they still obey just grudgingly because they think why do I have to help those pathetic losers on earth.
#2 we have free will as well as Gods forgiveness angels and demons don't if angels disobey they get cast aside thus become demons. they either are good or bad once the are set that's it forever.
who said we become angels we were never promised that only eternal life.
I guess but who really knows we are all just fleas arguing over who owns the dog.

as far as earth quakes I really don't know much about them been through a few minor ones but a major deal like new Madrid or something would probably mess up the system may even cause a chain reaction to something like Yellowstone. geological stuff is not my strongest area.


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## Jakthesoldier

Medic33 said:


> -also on"1 they both still obey Gods will-even thought the demon says F'you they still obey just grudgingly because they think why do I have to help those pathetic losers on earth.
> #2 we have free will as well as Gods forgiveness angels and demons don't if angels disobey they get cast aside thus become demons. they either are good or bad once the are set that's it forever.
> who said we become angels we were never promised that only eternal life.
> I guess but who really knows we are all just fleas arguing over who owns the dog.
> 
> as far as earth quakes I really don't know much about them been through a few minor ones but a major deal like new Madrid or something would probably mess up the system may even cause a chain reaction to something like Yellowstone. geological stuff is not my strongest area.


I'm referring to guardian angels. Those situations where multiple witnesses claim to have seen angels/been protected by angels.


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## RNprepper

OK, Jak, here's one for you. An asteroid is coming. It is absolutely going to hit the earth. All predictions are that it will impact the Pacific Ocean, sending tsnumais everywhere. It will also tip the earth off its axis at 90 degrees, so the equators will be up and the poles will be the new equator. This will disrupt the magnetic field, change the topography of the entire globe from the resulting upheaval and earthquakes. Volcanos will erupt and the sky will turn black with ash and dust. Ground water is contaminated and plants will die. So what's your Plan B?


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## Denton

Jakthesoldier said:


> No lol, if that happened we are all screwed, the atmosphere would be released and the surface scorched.
> 
> I'm suggesting just a malalignment. Just enough to render the compass useless, but not affect anything else (understood, this is hypothetical and impossible according to currently accepted physics theories)


There's not really any such thing as a malalignment as there is no "correct" place for the poles. As it is, the poles wander, and it doesn't harm a thing. There'll certainly be issues when the polarity flips. How will the birds know how to shoot a back azimuth?


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## Jakthesoldier

The correct answer was compare my new compass reading to the old magnetic north, using a designater marker, and determine the new angle to adjust for grid north on my map.


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## Jakthesoldier

Again, I was asking if the only change was to what magnetic north is, no other changes.


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## Denton

Not sure what you mean by not affecting everything else, nor did I know what you were looking for. 

Now that I see what you are wanting, you'll need to have what is considered now to be magnetic north staked out on your property. Considering the degree of change in magnetic north will be an unknown and you assume their is no change in the accuracy of your compass, that makes to unknowns due to the assumption.

When a standby compass loses its accuracy to a point it must be replaced, the test pilots take it to compass rose. They rotate the helicopter annotating the difference between the known compass and the difference of the new compass. The variation is displayed in the cockpit where the pilots can reference it when using the standby compass.


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## Medic33

well I would check the rise and fall of the sun and determine the direction direction from that -by using known points of interest i should be able to determine direction without a compass or at least recalibrate the one i have even if the earth made a complete pole shift.


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## tinkerhell

RNprepper said:


> OK, Jak, here's one for you. An asteroid is coming. It is absolutely going to hit the earth. All predictions are that it will impact the Pacific Ocean, sending tsnumais everywhere. It will also tip the earth off its axis at 90 degrees, so the equators will be up and the poles will be the new equator. This will disrupt the magnetic field, change the topography of the entire globe from the resulting upheaval and earthquakes. Volcanos will erupt and the sky will turn black with ash and dust. Ground water is contaminated and plants will die. So what's your Plan B?


.

I plan to lean forward, place my head between my knees,....

and kiss my arse goodbye.


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## Medic33

well with the opening post title -I still vote for
KNOWING WERE YOU PUT THE CONDUM


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## pheniox17

Denton said:


> Not sure what you mean by not affecting everything else, nor did I know what you were looking for.
> 
> Now that I see what you are wanting, you'll need to have what is considered now to be magnetic north staked out on your property. Considering the degree of change in magnetic north will be an unknown and you assume their is no change in the accuracy of your compass, that makes to unknowns due to the assumption.
> 
> When a standby compass loses its accuracy to a point it must be replaced, the test pilots take it to compass rose. They rotate the helicopter annotating the difference between the known compass and the difference of the new compass. The variation is displayed in the cockpit where the pilots can reference it when using the standby compass.


Magnetic north changes every year.... It's a small change...

The earths magnetic field is also weakening every year (apparently) but its hardly noticeable without sensitive equipment

Noticed a mars reference.... Last night (thinking this thread was dead didn't bother to respond) mars is smaller than earth, and its assumed the size would not generate a strong enough field to provide the protection required for the defence against the sun

But to some other points.... A "pole shift" won't be uneventful...your talking a extreme change, starting with the assumption north and south change, the flow of magma under the crust will have to change.....

Other assumptions to pole shift is forget nth/sth flip, just a massive shift.... Some argue the Bermuda triangle was at one stage a magnetic poll (I don't know enough to argue that as possible or not) and there are 3 such anomalies on this planet.. To what is known....

That's what I know on the topic.... I can't see a poll shift being uneventful, the absolute minimum I would bet increased tectonic activity.... But without recorded history o ln such a event, and geological evidence very inconclusive, but multiple extension level events are known, one being a asteroid impact, but there are others that are up for speculation.... If it happens, it happens.....


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## PaulS

Maps can be copied and even modified to reflect changes to landscape and the magnetic declination can be listed for an area. I have made topo maps of small areas before. It does take some special equipment but nothing that can't be made in my garage or shop. Measure the distance and direction to a given rise and you can build upon each step to make a complete topographical map including the magnetic declination. You can even use advance algebra to calculate the slope and height of a cliff. When I was about 9 or 10 I figured out (with the help of my engineer Dad) how high Mt. Rainier was with a home made protractor and a straw (and a bit of math help from Dad). Together we calculated the distance from the "bottom" of the glacier to the peak, and the peaks height above sea level. Our calculations were within 2% of the measured peak altitude above sea level. That satisfied Dad but I wanted to get closer. Then I found out how big a protractor I would need and how accurately I would have to make it. I let it alone after that but is easy - just time consuming.


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## Jakthesoldier

... I think the point I was making was missed. 

I was just noting what would be the solution if you woke up tomorrow and magnetic north was off by 5-10 degrees. As in what would the navigational solution be?


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## PaulS

I would use the map and compass. I would simply sight down the side of a building and get the declination from that to magnetic north. If there were no buildings I would keep track of the shadow the sun made on the ground as it went through the noon day. (noon will leave the shortest shadow) That tells me true north and the declination can be measured from the offset of the compass. 

As long as you know the declination you can use the compass and a map.


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## Jakthesoldier

Yea, that works, or like what I said, use a known object to determine the number of degrees difference from what the previous magnetic north was to determine the new declination.

Good morning by the way


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## Disturbed12404

I tried really hard to understand the last two pages this morning, frankly there was a lot of thinking with little caffeine. Most of what I absorbed is that PAULS is crazy intelligent.

Anyway, a few pages back Jak asked what the plan was if Sat's go down. My goal is to have a 3 ring binder with laminated prints of

HVT buildings near home + along bug out route
my route
back up route's
common edible plants/berries 
Knots
Common phrases in Spanish/Dutch
sensitive personal documents
(suggestions to this would be great)

But really, would the satellites go down? Many of us read the book, _One Second After _ , and while that was a good tale and provided a good outlook they never mentioned it. After doing some research it seems like im getting mixed answers. Anyone have an idea?


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## Maine-Marine

I managed to get places without a GPS for most of my life


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## PaulS

An Hemp could take some satellites out from excessive gamma rays. It would be only nearby satellites and it would not completely take out the GPS grid or even comsat satellites. There would be no EMP in space - there is no air to drive it. Only the gamma rays that produces the EMP in the atmosphere that are headed in all directions at the same time could damage the nearby satellites.


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## Kauboy

Like Paul said, an EMP in the upper atmosphere would only "potentially" affect a small fraction of the satellites floating around this dirt ball.
Mainly because any satellites on the other side of the planet would likely go on unimpeded.

Last year:


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## paraquack

RNprepper said:


> Oh boy, now we're talking! when the earth flips its magnetic field, there is a strong possibility that it could take several days for the protective magnetic field to become fully established. In the meantime, the earth would be highly vulnerable to the sun's unrelenting flow of geomagnetic energy, not to speak of coronal mass ejections. The entire atmosphere of the earth could be sucked up, the oceans would evaporate, and we would look like Mars. Such an event is precisely what some scientists think happened to Mars. I guess you might say that the prophesies of 2nd Peter would come true quite literally. Heat so intense that the elements melt and the heavens rolled back like a scroll. A useless compass would be the least of our worries.


I'm heading for the tunnel near my place. Or maybe the missile silo at the air museum.


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## Ralph Rotten

Satellites should work...but I have to qualify that. It is theoretically possible to be hit by something that could create a metallic dust that would make all comms wonky. Once it gets into the jetstream it would take a little while to come down. But I wouldn;t hold my breath. 

However, if an impact over water is theorized to be able to cause a massive hole in the ozone, which is part of our magnetosphere, would that screw up regional comms and GPS? I mean if the thing can cause northern lights over the equator, would your lower band radios go to shite?


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## Ralph Rotten

Kauboy: Was that the JTOC (or jstar or whatthehellever) website? I love that app. you can use it to see satellites coming overhead at dusk.


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## Ralph Rotten

BagLady said:


> "My entire focus would be on preserving a significant gene pool"...(Rotten Ralph)
> 
> God help us. Would that preservation be at gun point?
> Anyone who will steal food, rather than grow their own, would not stop at "taking" a woman, in the interest of "preserving" their own gene pool.


Hey Baglady, you got any selfies?


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## jimLE

*the brookshire bros that i shop at..has what i consider a food distribution warehouse..in which it distributes the food items within its region.and directly across the street from it.is a MCcoys lumber...i've often thought of both in a shtf situation*


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