# Buying land for a bugout/homestead location.



## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

That's my dream... Obviously, it needs to be someplace remote, but what are some of the things to consider when looking to purchase a good spot? How much land is enough? How do you keep it within budget? I've been checking out these log cabin kits. Does anyone have experience with these kits? I'm checking out youtube and there are a few people who've done this, they're pretty cool looking. I wonder how hard it is to build them.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

No experience with a log cabin kit. I would stress a freash water supply on the property. Stream, pond or preferably both. The pond can also be a supply for freash fish, ducks (eggs). Not obvious to a main road. Selecting if possible is an easily defended area, limited practical approaches. Several tillable, plantable acres. Nut and fruit trees. Timber for firewood. If possible natural gas from a gas well. As much acarage as is affordable. Better to have some extra than not enough. I would think 40 to 50 but that is a guess.


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## Gunn (Jan 1, 2016)

Annie we are in the exact same position since we sold our half of the BOL. When we were in Montana on vacation last month we went to two different log home manufacturers to check them out. There was a bit of an education there. It seems the best logs come from as far north as you can get due to the denseness of the logs. The kits only cover certain things not the whole house. It did not discourage us, but it made us think differently. If we do this we will probably have it built for us otherwise it takes quite a few people and equipment to move the logs around. One of the kit companies lead us to contractor who actually builds the kits for a fairly good price. Our choice of cabin and construction was less than $150K! Also through word of mouth we found the kits from the Hamilton to Darby Mt area are the best.
We have settled on 10 acres as it is enough land for a large garden and can support several head of cattle and the piece we are seriously looking at would be easier to defend. It is on the Snake River.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Gunn said:


> Annie we are in the exact same position since we sold our half of the BOL. When we were in Montana on vacation last month we went to two different log home manufacturers to check them out. There was a bit of an education there. It seems the best logs come from as far north as you can get due to the denseness of the logs. The kits only cover certain things not the whole house. It did not discourage us, but it made us think differently. If we do this we will probably have it built for us otherwise it takes quite a few people and equipment to move the logs around. One of the kit companies lead us to contractor who actually builds the kits for a fairly good price. Our choice of cabin and construction was less than $150K! Also through word of mouth we found the kits from the Hamilton to Darby Mt area are the best.
> We have settled on 10 acres as it is enough land for a large garden and can support several head of cattle and the piece we are seriously looking at would be easier to defend. It is on the Snake River.


These are so pretty. Thanks for the tip. We'll be up in Vermont this month to check out some properties. I'm really hoping we can find something nice that's gonna be doable.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Camel923 said:


> No wxperiance with a log cabin kit. I would stress a freash water supply on the property. Stream, pond or preferably both. The pond can also be a supply for freash fish, ducks (eggs). Not obvious to a main road. She merging if possible is an easily defended area, limited practical approaches. Several tillable, plantable acres. Nut and fruit trees. Timber for firewood. If possible natural gas from a gas well. As much acarage as is affordable. Better to have some extra than not enough. I would think 40 to 50 but that is a guess.


Yes to water, that's really key. My husband wants a huge chunk of land, but I'm thinking it'd be more practical to go smaller, say 5-10 acres in the right location would be plenty when we factor in proerty tax. Trees for firewood is a good point, though.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Log looks cool but real not all the efficient. They don't seal up as the should , over time the leak air. 
land should be high enough so it done; flood check flood palins
Must have water under ground you can legally use
Established trees a big plus
Fugue if you plan to free range beef 2 acres at least per cow 
You need more land than you think to grow the wood you would need and raise some live stock.


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## WhatTheHeck (Aug 1, 2018)

Hello,
I agree with what others have said concerning water access, extra land for timber.

I would recommend the Web Soil Survey to get a general idea of the kind of soil the property you are looking at. https://websoilsurvey.sc.egov.usda.gov/App/HomePage.htm

Check the local town by-laws for things that could impact your plans for things like livestock, water way rights, mineral rights etc.

How close are the neighbors? What kind of people are they?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Annie said:


> Yes to water, that's really key. My husband wants a huge chunk of land, but I'm thinking it'd be more practical to go smaller, say 5-10 acres in the right location would be plenty when we factor in property tax. Trees for firewood is a good point, though.


 You need to find out how the land is classified. A minimum number of acres is required to qualify as a farm in most places. The advantage is it gives you more rights as to what you can do with the land and TAXES. Same as if it is classified a woods, you may not be allowed to cut much from it . How land is Classified can have a big effect on your future plans.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

Check your library for books on buying rural real estate. An old but good pamphlet is https://www.storey.com/books/buying-country-land/

You are not looking for a house or even a building site rather a small farm . Matters not what type of house is on it or what type you build . The water and land is what you are after.

What matters- water . US has lots of waste land that cannot be lived on . Great to visit and everyone should - great camping / hiking. But in order to graze one cow in some areas will take 50+ acres verses 5 in other areas with adequate rainfall.

Once you figure out what areas of which states have an annual rainfall for farming/grazing you can start to look.

Money- you got it or still need to earn it? Lots of small farms in hilly areas of Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Missouri but not great if you have to earn a living - unless you got a critical skill. Medical- nurse or teachers can pretty much work anywhere.

So water, ability to earn a living , zoning - you want a health ordinance or zoning to keep CAFO's out. If you do not know what a CAFO is you are not ready to buy rural real estate do a lot of research . Growing season/ average temperatures - there is a reason why more people do not live in Alaska . Soil types, slope, existing right of ways , what type of neighbors do you have - hunting clubs who only use the land couple weeks a year, corn fields, dairy farm. Do you need a public school ?

Location - distance to railroad, highway, airports- railroads = hazard from chemical spills when they have a train wreck. Same for a highway with the possibility that many fleeing will use highway to flee you do not want to be right on the highway . Airport more than 3 hours away is a 6 hour trip to the airport - how much do you still travel? Waterways/ canals /rivers can have the same issues with cargo freight as a rail road.

Soil types and slope- raised beds and containers in hoop houses can overcome this for a garden but you will never raise some crops in fields that have shallow flinty soils. Do others have pasture and hay in the area- if they do great if they don't why not? Cattle /goats can graze on hills but hay ground has to be flat or close to it to be able to use equipment on it.

Does the area have a small engine repair shop, feed store, large animal vet, lumber yard/building supply , auto parts, auto repair /tire shop, gas station , pharmacy, medical clinic, grocery store within 15 to 20 miles . Hospital how many hours away? Any air ambulances in the area.

Then there are prepper issues- How close to a nuclear weapon target, people fleeing from a metro area, natural disasters- every area has something . What about local fire ambulance service .

Many would say gun laws but for a prepper / just in case this does not matter things go SHTF as long as you stay on your places defending a rural property no government person is going to bother you. Again this assumes a real SHTF situation.

But books written on buying rural real estate are a very good place to start.


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

Look for a High Point...


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Quality is more important the amount of acreage. As other have already stated about resources and location. You can do a lot more with 5 acres of farm land then 100 of dry desert. 

Would take a look at security also. No use living back in the woods with 100 foot hills on 3 sides within 200 yards of the house. You will be easy pickings for any attackers. 

Could drop a shipping container or 2 and make a quick homestead. Build the mansion at your leisure.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

@Annie

Some good advise from the knuckleheads!

Regarding the "Log Cabin" idea, please ditch it! Having some educamation in the forestry industry I will quote my respected PHd Forest Products Professor Dr. Smith (Yes his real name!)..."Keep Wood Inside Where it Belongs". Doc started every semester with that quote. There are so many more durable building products available today that will last much longer and be more efficient than logs. When you get ready, I can point you in the right direction.

As far as the land itself..., after you look and look and look and research and research and research...one day you may stumble across a tract a land and finally say, this is it. No tract of land will be perfect (I found that out after me and Mrs Slippy looked for a few years). Part of the challenge and the reward is working the land and making it YOURS!

Slippy Lodge ain't perfect but its OURS! And I can tell you that when I am at Slippy Lodge and we work the Land, Tend to the Garden, Make Improvements, at the end of the job, it becomes PERFECT...if only for a moment!

My point is, to quote the Great Chinese Tennis Shoe god Nike...Just Do It! If its what you and Mr Annie want, then make it happen and don't look back. I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

Your friend,

Slippy! :vs_wave:


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## youngridge (Dec 28, 2017)

Easement, water, electricity, real estate taxes, township taxes, and in certain areas county tile

Make sure you have an easement and mineral right. Don’t have that, no getting to it or drilling a well, make sure there is water underneath.

Be careful on taxes, some townships charge more in some areas if it is 10 acres or less because people buy them from the city for hunting

Keep in mind an active water source, stream, pond, lake or river. 

Secluded, but don’t be in the middle of no where, tougher to get supplies. Look at county populations as well as the surrounding counties. 

Once you build, know your neighbors. If they are good they will be your best ally wether SHTF or not. Keeping an eye on one another’s property is very nice, suspicious activity, noxious weeds, unwanted livestock or people, etc

Some machinery for planting and harvesting would be ideal. But you can make it with about anything


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

First I doubt anywhere in the US land locking is allowed anymore. So you will have easement access to land. Depending where you are you must what out for.
Any surface water, it can heavy restrict your use of the land. Example in Wisconsin State claims power over land 300 feet from the high water mark.
Any land enrolled in Government payment programs. Example set a side programs. Owner receives payment for an agreed number of years to let the land be. However if the land is sold the agreement follows and if new owner does not stick with it they have to pay the money back. You could be stuck with land that is restricted for years.
Any land that may have been a land fill of any type could present issues. It may have a ban on building on it or digging. You can not tell by looking at it.
If you are looking in an area you do not know well. Research crime history for the entire area. You may be buying land in the middle of hexx. I know someone that happen to. Purchased a small plot with house good deal in Mississippi. They had to dump it and run due to crime.
A large part of the country is now covered under land use plans. The Feds forced it and are forcing more all the time. Know the land use plans for the are before you buy. 
Is the land in a Flood plain? again you must check you can not tell by looking. It could mean insurance cost that will break you and or more restrictions.
May sound strange but are the any grave sites on the land ? If so you could run into issue again with land use. Saw that happen due to two head stone on a peace of land.
Know any and all easements that have been granted on the land, you will be held to them. Make sure you fully understand them. An easement grant many years ago still allows them to come back and bury more cables, lines ect. No you don't get paid again.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Wow, tons of good advice guys, thanks.


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## youngridge (Dec 28, 2017)

I’ve seen land sales go bust because the owner does not have the easement, no bank will give you a loan with no easement. You then usually have to buy the easement through the land lords that have it land locked. Sometimes they are more than willing to work with you, other times they never will, forcing the sale to there hands


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Slippy said:


> @Annie
> 
> Some good advise from the knuckleheads!
> 
> Regarding the "Log Cabin" idea, please ditch it! Having some educamation in the forestry industry I will quote my respected PHd Forest Products Professor Dr. Smith (Yes his real name!)..."Keep Wood Inside Where it Belongs". Doc started every semester with that quote. There are so many more durable building products available today that will last much longer and be more efficient than logs. When you get ready, I can point you in the right direction....


:sad2: Oh no. Say it ain't so. I am disapointed.

"But you know that disappointment is just the action of your brain readjusting itself to reality after discovering things are not the way you thought they were." --Brad Warner


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

Living in a fairly rural area something I've learned is that having a lot of land takes a lot of time to maintain it, especially if it has a lot of pasture or fencing. If you're working full time you don't have the time to keep it maintained and if your old enough to be retired you may not have the energy to keep it maintained. I think 8-10 acres would be a nice size; plenty of room for chickens, rabbits, and gardens but not so large that you spend hours on the bushhog keeping it cleaned up. Even better if your neighbors have large tracts of land so plenty elbow room without all the work of maintaining 60+ acres.

In addition if you're looking for the home you hope to grow old and die in if you're too far out from town medical care could become a problem.

I agree with Slippy, log homes are beautiful but a lot of work to maintain. There are better building materials out there.

just my 2 cents.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

youngridge said:


> I've seen land sales go bust because the owner does not have the easement, no bank will give you a loan with no easement. You then usually have to buy the easement through the land lords that have it land locked. Sometimes they are more than willing to work with you, other times they never will, forcing the sale to there hands
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 What you are talking about is land locking. While it happen in the distance past I highly doubt you can find a modern day example of a real case it was outlaw. If you have ever purchased property access is a big part of the process. I own two houses on the same land that share a common driveway. When building the second home it was required the drive way have a easement for both homes. I did not madder that I owned all of the land and both homes. The way the state sees it someday one may get sold off.
In the mid 70's I knew a person that purchase a large track of land in MI. Seller tried to land lock him then blackmail him for access. Did not work.
When Wisconsin did road work on highway 16 they tried to take my access road to one of the fields , saying I had another way in. All I had to say was what if I sold a part of the land? I got my access road to Highway 16 back.
This is an example of issue buying land near a Federal,State, or county road. For traffic reason they often want to limit access roads. You may not get the easiest way in.
You are 100% correct it must be dealt with before one dime is spent. Access does not always mean it is the way you would want to get in.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

Mother Earth News cover article is about finding land for a homestead this month.


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## whoppo (Nov 9, 2012)

We spent a couple of years roaming around Vermont in search of the "retirement property", finally finding exactly what we wanted in the Northeast Kingdom.
20+ acres on a dead-end, private road a couple thousand feet up the side of a mountain. Few, but awesome and like-minded neighbors. Spring fed pond, year-round flowing water, lots of game. 
We've got a 31' travel trailer there now while we improve the land and build... should be ready to occupy in a few years.

Where about in Vermont are you thinking of looking Annie?


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

whoppo said:


> We spent a couple of years roaming around Vermont in search of the "retirement property", finally finding exactly what we wanted in the Northeast Kingdom.
> 20+ acres on a dead-end, private road a couple thousand feet up the side of a mountain. Few, but awesome and like-minded neighbors. Spring fed pond, year-round flowing water, lots of game.
> We've got a 31' travel trailer there now while we improve the land and build... should be ready to occupy in a few years.
> 
> Where about in Vermont are you thinking of looking Annie?


Sounds good to me, Whoppo. We're looking in Southern Vermont.


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## Wryter (Jan 30, 2015)

youngridge said:


> Easement, water, electricity, real estate taxes, township taxes, and in certain areas county tile
> 
> Make sure you have an easement and mineral right. Don't have that, no getting to it or drilling a well, make sure there is water underneath.
> 
> ...


This is generally good advice. I don't know about back East but out here in the West it's extremely hard to find any land that comes with mineral rights, water rights, timber rights, etc. When I lived in the Colorado mountains it took me four years to find such a place. The key was finding a property for sale that was part of an old original homestead, as they were granted fee simple absolute deeds, as opposed to the general warranty deeds most places come with now. Fee simple absolute basically means you own the property from the center of the Earth to the top os the sky. In the arid West water rights are just as important as mineral rights.

Also a quick word about seclusion. In a SHTF world seclusion will prove your downfall unless you have a large group of like-minded neighbors, in which case you aren't all that secluded. In places like Argentina during the economic collapse, or Bosnia during that terrible war, survivors all agreed on one thing. Being secluded got you dead. There is strength in numbers. So from a survival standpoint being part of a community, whether a small town or a mutual assistance group spread out among neighboring farms and ranches is essential.

My wife and I once owned 28 acres surrounded on two of its three sides by Pike National forest. A weatherbeaten dirt road formed the third border. We had cabins set so far off the road it was all but impossible to see them. Our nearest year-round neighbor was almost a mile away. The nearest tiny town was 21 miles away. It was almost 45 miles to the nearest small town that had a grocery store and hospital. We even had access to an old miner's cabin way back in the Forest that didn't even have a road going to it. So, secluded? You bet. And in a TEOTWAKI or WROL situation, if found, we would have been overrun easily, in spite of being good shots and having good weapons--because there were only two of us.


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## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

Smitty901 said:


> What you are talking about is land locking. While it happen in the distance past I highly doubt you can find a modern day example of a real case it was outlaw. If you have ever purchased property access is a big part of the process.


There are two separate issues here. "Land locking" the term you refer to applies to subdividing an existing parcel of land. Say you have 100 acres and want to divide your land in half and sell someone 50 acres. Most states have a law now that says you must provide access to the newly subdivided parcel and if you don't or can't the land cannot be divided. Some of these access laws prevent any division of certain parcels.

The second issue. There are many existing parcels of already landlocked land. They became landlocked prior to law preventing this from happening. In some states such as Alabama, the sale of these landlocked parcels is lawful and the owner is under no legal obligation to provide any access to the property what so ever. You CAN in fact purchase landlocked land with no legal access in many states today. Some of these parcels have gentleman's agreements providing access (nothing in writing) and some have legal binding easements allowing a driveway or road and utility placement.

As mentioned before it's near impossible to get a loan on a pre existing landlocked parcel. However, there are exceptions such as the timber industry...

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## youngridge (Dec 28, 2017)

MikeTango said:


> There are two separate issues here. "Land locking" the term you refer to applies to subdividing an existing parcel of land. Say you have 100 acres and want to divide your land in half and sell someone 50 acres. Most states have a law now that says you must provide access to the newly subdivided parcel and if you don't or can't the land cannot be divided. Some of these access laws prevent any division of certain parcels.
> 
> The second issue. There are many existing parcels of already landlocked land. They became landlocked prior to law preventing this from happening. In some states such as Alabama, the sale of these landlocked parcels is lawful and the owner is under no legal obligation to provide any access to the property what so ever. You CAN in fact purchase landlocked land with no legal access in many states today. Some of these parcels have gentleman's agreements providing access (nothing in writing) and some have legal binding easements allowing a driveway or road and utility placement.
> 
> ...


Yes, thank you for explaining this more in depth for them...


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## okey (Sep 13, 2018)

If it's far from your AO, you'll never get there if its shtf and you wont get to enjoy it much, either. There's other reasons to buy land, but dont make this one of them. you dont have to own land to have a some spider holes there, ready to be expanded horizontally IF shtf. Nor to have some buried drums of grain and gear nearby. It can happen that any place known to be attached to you is the last place you want to go (ie, big bro or gangs want you or your stuff). Think in terms of NVD goggles, not being out and about in daylght, and not trying to go far from your normal AO. Just to the woods around your local water source. For most people, that's 20 miles or less. even if it's 50 miles it can still be done in one night on a bicycle if the back roads are feasible to use. If shtf, and money wont buy anything, there'll be no water in the pipes, you'll have to leave town and gangs and the packs of starving dogs will mean it's crazy to go back. they'lljust keep going, trying to find resources. Everyone's going to be a looter in short order, or dead or a slave. there's going to be no way to establish who is the real owner of th eproperty, or is maybe the recent killer of the real owner.and maybe no currency is being excepted for the things that you want to buy, like bartteres. .22 ammo, clearn water,22lr ammo, silencer, steel ttraps, snares, antibioitics, seeds, those things will be the basic for the currency for a year of so ,while the gear is producing food You can easily get to your bol and some competent, well equipped band is already there, they wont give it up for yo. Best have yur spots well hidden and have several of thm. If, pre shtf, somebody finds one of your spiderholes, they wont think anything of it, but any shelter, vehicle, shed, campsite, is going to be known about by 100's of desperate people. the think is to stay underground durinf daylight hours, show no light at night, show no sign of your presence. People will bring contagious diseases. Whooping cough, diptheia, polio, stdfs, yellow fever, nile fever, malaria, dengue are going to come roaring back. typhus, typhoid, scarlet fever, tB, diabieties, high blood pressure People will be dying like flies.


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## tonybluegoat (Sep 5, 2018)

Annie said:


> Yes to water, that's really key. My husband wants a huge chunk of land, but I'm thinking it'd be more practical to go smaller, say 5-10 acres in the right location would be plenty when we factor in proerty tax. Trees for firewood is a good point, though.


We did this 7 years ago. One mistake I think we dodged was getting the 56 acres that we originally wanted. We were not prepared to take care of that amount of land. Much of it was pastures. Yes, it can just grow over or you can get cows... but we had no experience. We ended up getting 10 acres 2 hours out of town instead of 56 acres 3.5 hours out of town. That also made it possible to still access the city economy, since we live on our homestead and get our money by doing 2 days of work in the city each week (we have a business).

What are the chances of the SHTF? less than 1%... the consequences are dire... but the real odds. Even the economic collapse in 2008 wasn't a SHTF moment (unless you lost your job). So being able to enjoy it the other 99% of the time is important.

Neighbors are important, I think. And cost is extremely important. The perfect location that you can't afford isn't really a solution. A lot of people want a movie set country get away. How long will the banker let you keep it if you can't make the mortgage payment? It's pretty likely that the people who actually own the land (if you can't pay for it) will take it back and sell it to someone who can - whether it's for gold or dollars or whatever.

We chose less impressive housing for $50,000 total. That way we could essentially pay cash and build it up as we wanted.

That's my 2 cents.


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