# Just thinking out loud



## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Pick some holes in this scenario:

I've done a lot of talking here on the forum about having to high-tail it due to Nuclear/chemical fallout, etc., and the focus has been on BOBs and the problem with elderly people hauling all that gear, etc.
Ok, keep the basic scenario the same -- have to get out the immediate area. But, have a plan with a few trusted friends and/or family members that everyone will store (in Jerry cans) enough gas to fill their vehicles and have several Jerry cans left over. You then have a planned destination already picked out -- in my case, it would be up over the Blue Ridge Mountains and getting into several of the interior ranges of the Appalachians. You pick out an isolated place -- probably some place you have already reconnoitered ahead of time. Maybe one of your group actually owns some property in the general area you have picked. But, for a moment, just assume no one owns property or a cabin. So, you and everyone else in your group packs your vehicles full of survival gear, a heck of lot more than you'd have to parry down to carry in a BOB. In addition to all the gear (cooking equipment, water, gas, food, good medical kits, etc., etc., -- the list is endless) you have all of your weapons too. Anyway, you and your group make this trek to your planned location and you stop and set up camp. Safety in numbers -- maybe you'll have 5-10 vehicles. You stop BEFORE you run out of gas, plus you have many jerry cans full of gas for the future. You use your vehicles to live out of and for sleeping etc,. No need to sleep on the ground. Since most cars today have power windows, you'll want to conserve the gas to be able to turn the cars on when raising or lowering windows. I like the idea of wilderness in the mountains. Plenty of wildlife, plenty of streams for good fishing. As you'll have a relatively large group of people -- say 20-30 -- who are all armed, you would be a deterrent to other bands of people who might show up. (That goes back to your original planning -- you chose a spot that is really isolated and way off the beaten path from city dwellers.) 

My reasoning is ........ why not? Why would you feel the need to keep on moving "west" or wherever? (sorry to focus on you folks who actually live out west, I am just giving a "for instance".) It is not like this country is undeveloped out west. Big cities are everywhere in every direction. You might as well pick an isolated spot and make it your fortress. Maybe, you could live there over 3 months, over 6 months? That would depend on a lot of other factors that are unknown at this time. But maybe, it would buy enough time to get to the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Or, if the crisis was permanent -- and you were forced to move away on foot, from your vehicles, you'd at least have already built up a new lifestyle and learned one hell of a lot about survival vs. creature comforts.

Ok .. pick it apart.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Who is in charge? With that many people you can not do everything by committee. Are you going to vote and risk a group of idiots making decisions? Are there 3 or 4 strong natural leaders in your group? Assignments and rules must be carried out and strictly enforced for long term survival (you may need to ration food). There is a need to avoid squabbling and to promptly and efficiently resolve grievances so they do not tear the group apart. How do you deal with anyone not providing for the good of the group or refusing to work? Stealing or worse?


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

You will quickly deplete the area of resources. Without a homestead you will need to keep moving in order to feed a group that large. Like locusts...


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Follow up thoughts... communications. How does your caravan stay in touch for break downs, detours other unforeseen difficulties? I assume you are all traveling together. How do you communicate with the outside world once in place? Or do you? Once in location will you have trip flares or signal flares for easy night warning signaling?


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Camel923 said:


> Follow up thoughts... communications. How does your caravan stay in touch for break downs, detours other unforeseen difficulties? I assume you are all traveling together. How do you communicate with the outside world once in place? Or do you? Once in location will you have trip flares or signal flares for easy night warning signaling?


That kind of goes without saying -- CB radios of course. As long as your vehicles are operational, CBs would be choice.

As for the outside world, I have already begun a thread on HAM radio.

Flares? I would think flare guns would be part of the equipment carried. All of this would be planned ahead of time.

As for discipline and gold-brickers (mentioned in a post above), that's what hangings are for. :shock::shock:


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

pick apart games.... LOTS OF FUN!!

so your going car based transport, you do know cars don't hold much kit... (you have space limits) then goto other areas, like a small truck... holds a little more but use more gas... 

to me cars are throw away, I'm about numbers also but small group numbers... (so our numbers would ideally be similar) 

but first floor, cars, they stand out, easy to hear coming, easy to see coming... so first moments you will be semi safe

but fallout is a instant concern, and borders will be closed so interstate travel will be impossible

so first battle is getting there....

next battle is setting up a sustainable camp site for the group

then hygiene

then clean water

then clean food

then been secure (your not the only armed group heading to the hills) 

then back to moving to next site

then setting up camp (pattern repeats) 

my plans involving transport and kit, I have 2 categories, lifetime items, throw away items....

cars are throw away, can't maintain fuel/maintenance wile bugging out, so it puts restrictions onto plans

same as rifles... one day you won't be able to feed it...

so outside leadership concerns, and transport, and maintaining your "chosen" bol you won't get very far..


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## Derma-Redi (Aug 23, 2014)

It's all very reasonable to me. At least in theory. I contemplate this stuff all the time, as most of us on this forum probably do. That's why we are here.
Let's just hope that you can actually get to your destination. What will the roadways look like, will they be jammed with clueless yahoos racing to get absolutely nowhere? Will they be blocked by law enforcement or military? Obviously all that gear would be great to have but if you have to leav on foot well 90% of that will have to be left behind. But that doesn't mean you have to just give up on it either. You could hide it or bury some of it in the hopes that you make it back to that area again ( work with me here it's just a scenario). One thing in all of this is to remember "Knowledge Weighs Nothing". You carry it with you. So keep filling your head with helpful ideas and share them when you can. I do agree with strength in numbers. Especially when it's like-minded folks you can trust. A SHTF scenario can bring out the worst in people and definitely get as far away from urban areas as possible. You mentioned about buying time and that is critical. Let's face it if your out in a rural area your not exactly priority #1 considering all the hell that will be taking place in the cities and the immediate burbs around those cities. The resources being used ie; law enforcement etc to control that insanity will give you lots of time to negotiate your next move. I remember the Boston bomber BS and they had the whole city of Watertown on lock down (a violation of the 4th Amendment) but that's a whole different topic. Anyway they used more militarized cops that day to catch two pathetic dirtbag wannabe terrorists. Now just imagine every city across America going bonkers... you get my point!

Good luck we will all need some at some point!!


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## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

As for me and mine it won't happen, sitting still and taking orders from no one


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

I'm not looking to poke holes. Just further the plan/thought process. In my opinion, it would be ideal to be in a mountain area. Seems like a better place to set up a protective perimeter. But, planning on staying warm would be a priority. As Arklatex said; You don't want to deplete your immediate resources, so you would want to be able to hunt for food and firewood a good ways away from your camp. That shouldnt be a problem. But, I wouldnt want to depend on sleeping in a vehicle. A camp of people that large would have to have multiple fires going. That could attract attention. I think in this situation, a much smaller group would be better.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

BagLady said:


> I'm not looking to poke holes. Just further the plan/thought process. In my opinion, it would be ideal to be in a mountain area. Seems like a better place to set up a protective perimeter. But, planning on staying warm would be a priority. As Arklatex said; You don't want to deplete your immediate resources, so you would want to be able to hunt for food and firewood a good ways away from your camp. That shouldnt be a problem. But, I wouldnt want to depend on sleeping in a vehicle. A camp of people that large would have to have multiple fires going. That could attract attention. I think in this situation, a much smaller group would be better.


Lol in your case BL take the first possible boat to Australia


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Some additional thoughts based on some of the posts:

I think the group should be the "right" size. Not too small so as to make it difficult for rotating perimeter guards, and yet not too big which -- I agree -- would deplete the supplies and natural resourses around the site. So -- let me go out on a limb and proclaim that the perfect group size would be 10 adults (no children). 5 vehicles -- all 4-wheel drive SUVs, preferably on truck bodies like the Toyota 4Runner, and all loaded to the gills with survival gear -- including very warm sleeping bags.

This group needs to be trained ahead of time to have their gear ready to go at a moments notice. When the balloon goes up, this group would be on their way in very short order, and I am confident would be ahead of 99.999% of the masses. From where I live, I can be over the mountains in one and half hours. Now, I agree, if it took say over a day before we headed out, we'd be in trouble, but that is NOT what I am envisioning.

As for clean water -- anyone have any experience with this thing?
LifeStraw®
It might just be a toy, but it might be of some use in a pinch.

Unfortunately, any contact with other groups has to immediately be considered hostile, until proven otherwise. Maybe I've seen too many episodes of Walking Dead, but I've always felt that in a SHTF situation, people will become animals. Now, you also have to understand that the same thinking will be embedded in these other groups -- our group will immediately be considered hostile. So, I think everyone in our group needs to be very familiar with weapons, and have a good supply of them.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Buzz Kill from Slippy;
I do not believe this scenario will work. Without permanent shelter structures, proper sewage disposal, abundant fresh water supply, plenty of food to last months and a garden/renewable food source location already in place...you are looking at a prolonged camping trip that will go bad as soon as the weather goes bad. 

You'll hunt the woods dry in the first few months. Your less hearty people will become a liability quickly. Sleeping in your car is OK for one night when the tent leaks while you're at a NASCAR race with your buddies and your drunk on Budweiser after screaming for hours watching cars go in circles real fast..but it sucks after that.


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

What if someone already had that idea and exact location in mind. It would be better to just buy an abandoned lot somewhere and park it there. My point being who owns the land.


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## Dalarast (May 16, 2014)

To the OP you are leaving Richmond in your vehicle convoy and just out of luck an accident happens and leaves you without one truck. Is it now everyman for him or her self?

Basically the issues with depending on vehicles as your bug out plan is the WHAT IF. Besides vehicle issues.. how about road conditions. Being in Richmond you could be down in the bottom and you know your never getting out of that city by vehicle if you leave after a major event. Think EMP.... 64 and 95 would be just done. Backroads would offer limited means of travel.. if you could reach them.

The second issue with the plan... if you do not already have the land not just scouted out; but perhaps purchase you could arrive without a "home". I used to plan to travel out west to the George Washington National Park since I knew the area and it has plenty of natural resources and ability to hide. Whats the problem with it.... everyone else who has been to George Washington National Park also know this. Moving out farther than that... you may find yourself the locals who live there don't take kindly to us "city" folk. 

Advice - Finalize the plan. You have to have an end point to fall back to. Other wise as another poster commented on you will turn into locust.. with no food and gas you may pray or be prayed upon by others for resources. In addition make sure once you have this final destination planned out you recon the routes. Make primary and secondary plans. Ask the what-ifs.... bridges are out, road-blocks, a flat tire.... 

I live farther East than you so same ideas hit upon during initial planning... I mean besides the 10 people and 2 vehicles.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

I'd like to go back to something Camel brought up, leadership. Someone(s) has to be in charge. What happens when a decision has to be made that everyone doesn't agree with? When the leader says (for example) "We need to pack up and move on" and you and a few other are convinced that staying put is by far the best idea, then what?
I think this might be the hardest part of living with a group, we are all free willed, and it can be hard living with the decisions someone else makes. Also, liked mentioned, what if someone, in your opinion, isn't pulling his/her weight, or something else happens? These kind of things are not impossible to deal with, but is something that needs to be talked about and agreed upon ahead of time IMO.
*EDIT*
I would think, perhaps the best idea, might be is using a checks and balances approach, have one leader but also have a few (perhaps five) people with the ability to overrule his/her decision (by voting) if need be.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

You all are forgetting a couple of key elements to my scenary. It is an absolute must that we skiddadle PRONTO because a nuclear fallout is on its way from Washington. We have to go somewhere -- and it for damn sure will at least start out in vehicles and not on foot. And, as I've already pointed out -- we are already WAY ahead of the rest of the population. To Dalarast -- I'm not located in Richmond. I am up in Aylett and so would be the rest of the group. At least I and some others know every back road in Virginia, having constantly ridden them on my motorcycle over the last 15 years. I know how to get to any number of isolated spots going all the way over to West Virginia. Anyway -- the point I am making IN MY SCENARIO ... is that you HAVE to leave otherwise you are going to die of radiation poisoning. Sure, there are dozens of issues with what I have laid out, but no one so far has laid out a better plan. IMHO anyway. Let's here some other plans.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Go to Virginia beach, steal a boat(s) big enough for your group and head to Argentina hide in the mountains? If fallout is that bad, sorry to say it will probably make it over here to WV too. Maybe I should go with ya?


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

DerBiermeister said:


> Pick some holes in this scenario:
> 
> I've done a lot of talking here on the forum about having to high-tail it due to Nuclear/chemical fallout, etc., and the focus has been on BOBs and the problem with elderly people hauling all that gear, etc.
> Ok, keep the basic scenario the same -- have to get out the immediate area. But, have a plan with a few trusted friends and/or family members that everyone will store (in Jerry cans) enough gas to fill their vehicles and have several Jerry cans left over. You then have a planned destination already picked out -- in my case, it would be up over the Blue Ridge Mountains and getting into several of the interior ranges of the Appalachians. You pick out an isolated place -- probably some place you have already reconnoitered ahead of time. Maybe one of your group actually owns some property in the general area you have picked. But, for a moment, just assume no one owns property or a cabin. So, you and everyone else in your group packs your vehicles full of survival gear, a heck of lot more than you'd have to parry down to carry in a BOB. In addition to all the gear (cooking equipment, water, gas, food, good medical kits, etc., etc., -- the list is endless) you have all of your weapons too. Anyway, you and your group make this trek to your planned location and you stop and set up camp. Safety in numbers -- maybe you'll have 5-10 vehicles. You stop BEFORE you run out of gas, plus you have many jerry cans full of gas for the future. You use your vehicles to live out of and for sleeping etc,. No need to sleep on the ground. Since most cars today have power windows, you'll want to conserve the gas to be able to turn the cars on when raising or lowering windows. I like the idea of wilderness in the mountains. Plenty of wildlife, plenty of streams for good fishing. As you'll have a relatively large group of people -- say 20-30 -- who are all armed, you would be a deterrent to other bands of people who might show up. (That goes back to your original planning -- you chose a spot that is really isolated and way off the beaten path from city dwellers.)
> ...


With the right planning what you are saying I believe is doable. Every time we go camping I try to simulate such a scenario. I have been doing this for several years and reevaluating the equipment needed. I have most of the equipment loaded in our bugout vehicle, labeled in boxes or on a list to have quick access to. I have the ability to take hot showers and with pressurized running water. Filtering millions of gallons of water for drinking and cooking. Portable toilets, tools for cutting wood, building structures and farming. The next project is a portable solar power supply with a potable water tank. The plan is to be able to take enough equipment to be able to build a settlement. I've have several places picked out that if we have to leave we can go to.

All the equipment needed to live in wilderness and survive is also the same equipment I will need to live at home without the grid. I have enough family members and vehicles to transport, provide security and do the work. As long as the vehicle can still run and the roads are clear I see no problems.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

I would avoid the mountains for two reasons. First, that's where anyone near them will head. Second, they are generally resource poor compared to other areas, particularly in the winter. A better option is a area down near, but not at, the coast. Fewer people will be there, the resources are much easier to collect and far more plentiful and the waterways mean much easier travel should it become necessary to change locations. This is particularly true in the east where we have a very wide coastal plain.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Fast forward 6 months and your group is the one I am most concerned about. With no sustainable food supply (garden, small livestock), you are now a bunch of hungry people with guns. Are you coming for me (and my garden, animals, water) next? 

To me, the key to any bug-out or bug-in situation is being able to get the garden going immediately (if it is not going already.) A year's supply of stored food is only meant to hold one over until the sustainable food supply takes its place.

The group I am second most concerned about are the ones who start their gardens, but due to lack of experience, they do not plan for enough, or the garden fails due to any number of reasons. Then they are also a bunch of hungry people with guns.

The first wave of violence after an "event" may be from the gangs, looters, and crazies. But the second wave is more dangerous. That comes 6-12 months later and from well armed, hungry preppers who will not hesitate to use their skills, training, and mental toughness to take what they need for survival.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

DerBiermeister said:


> Sure, there are dozens of issues with what I have laid out, but no one so far has laid out a better plan. IMHO anyway. Let's here some other plans.


I don't think you can really provide a feasible alternative unless you start simulating possible scenarios. "We got there, and found...", or "While travelling, this happened". Theses situations are nearly impossible, at least in my opinion, to prepare for on a case by case basis because just like the rest of life anything can happen in moments that will change every decision made.

Living in vehicles, I can't see that happening for longer than the time it takes to caravan from point A to point B. I've slept in a car or truck for any number of reasons over the years and it's not fun for one night, let alone multiple nights. Given the opportunity and weather permitting, I would be outside and laying on a nice patch of grass somewhere, or on bedding if the ground was too cold.

If you're trying to be subtle, that number of vehicles is going to be hard to keep inconspicuous. Even if you happen to stumble upon the warehouse of a company that manufactures flat spray paint, your windows, headlights and taillights will still be reflective and give away your position to any group whose plan it is to take what they need instead of earn it.

I would be looking for something more permanent, and as soon as possible. Going primitive would be the last resort, but not improbable. Hopefully you could chance upon a well built structure that you could inhabit and defend as a community... avoiding all the who owns what arguments for a moment, because I assume we're talking complete societal breakdown here, I would think industrial.. something like a warehouse or a walled yard with multiple buildings. You could always scavenge for luxuries to bring back and make it more comfortable.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Let me lay out my plan that I've implemented;

Buy some land, acreage in a rural setting and prepare it for year round living. Save money to improve the land. Research, Learn and Research some more. Build or renovate a home on the land and make sure you have proper sewage disposal, water access, a good passive solar design, designate areas for garden plots, livestock, security points and some recreational areas. 

Sell your home in the suburbs and take the plunge. Make improvements in small increments as you learn from others on Forums like this as well as trial and error. 

That was the easy part, the more difficult was finding like-minded people with various skills to assist. People often talk a big game but fall short when it comes time to sweat, implement or even spend some money. 

Mrs Slippy's sister and brother in law are somewhat like-minded and even bought a tract that borders mine. The problem is that Sister is on board and works her ass off; assisting in the garden and even learning to can and prepare some food. 

Brother-In-Law, who I call Dipshit, would rather buy a new $300 pair of boots and not get them dirty and scoff at my old Redwings or Woverine's that are well worn... or brag about his Trijicon Scope (that he has never mounted) while not knowing how to field strip his AR that is in his big safe that he has to look up the combination because he never trains with his weapons. Or laugh at the fact that I shoot Iron Sights most of the time...while he stands around afraid to shoot because the little clicker in his head is adding up 30 cents per round. So he is ill trained at best. 

Dipshit also looks at my stacks of 5 gallon buckets filled with food that is Mylar Sealed and Oxygen absorbed and say stupid shit like, "looks like you got our food covered"! And I silently grin and say to myself, Yes Dipshit, when you show up with the trigger locks still on your guns in the ****ing box that they came in when you bought them...wanting food and shelter, I'll duck tape your ass naked to the skinning shed out back and beat you for 3 days until I give you some food that I've already chewed up and spit back into a dirty bowl. And you'll eat it and say Thank You Sir, may I have another?

Rant over and I feel good!


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Slippy said:


> Brother-In-Law, who I call Dipshit, would rather buy a new $300 pair of boots and not get them dirty and scoff at my old Redwings or Woverine's that are well worn... or brag about his Trijicon Scope (that he has never mounted) while not knowing how to field strip his AR that is in his big safe that he has to look up the combination because he never trains with his weapons. Or laugh at the fact that I shoot Iron Sights most of the time...while he stands around afraid to shoot because the little clicker in his head is adding up 30 cents per round. So he is ill trained at best.











I see so many ARs that you just know are built with nothing but "the best", and the owner hasn't gotten the slightest clue why it's on there. Not just the ninjafied weapons, even the nice minimalist builds, with the $200 Magpul UBR, Troy BUIS and Battlecomp brake; all excellent pieces, but do you have any clue why they're on your setup?

I don't have the best parts, but I do have a work table full of parts that have seen both dirt and carbon. If it's on my rifle, it's because it works for me, and it works for what I do with it.

Is it an ACOG? Pet peeve; home defense weapons with ACOGS. You don't need to see their pores, you just need to see a dot.


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## TG (Jul 28, 2014)

I'd like to add a bit of something about a possible nuclear event. When I was a little kid, I was visiting a tiny town about 60km from Chernobyl, Ukraine when it blew up, some towns in the immediate area were evacuated (I found out later) but no one told us about the accident, we didn't know it happened for at least 30 days and once we found out, everyone left.. some locals evacuated to Kiev and I (with friends) went home to Odessa, people in Odessa (about 1 million population) weren't told either for at least a month. Strangely enough, most of us were alright, we had to take iodine pills or in liquid form but I don't know whether it did or didn't make a difference to take iodine after a whole month of exposure. We were not given anything else. 
Many years later, myself and my friends who were with me, we are all in our 30's and still healthy, no cancers (yet), our kids are ok too. 
I know closer to Chernobyl many children were born with all kinds of birth defects and many have cancers but that's from parents who stayed in the area and never left.
I think that in case of a nuclear disaster as bad as Chernobyl and Fukushima, people still have a chance to lead normal lives, as long as they leave eventually, maybe within a few weeks if you're not able to leave immediately.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

dannydefense said:


> I don't think you can really provide a feasible alternative unless you start simulating possible scenarios. "We got there, and found...", or "While travelling, this happened". Theses situations are nearly impossible, at least in my opinion, to prepare for on a case by case basis because just like the rest of life anything can happen in moments that will change every decision made.
> 
> Living in vehicles, I can't see that happening for longer than the time it takes to caravan from point A to point B. I've slept in a car or truck for any number of reasons over the years and it's not fun for one night, let alone multiple nights. Given the opportunity and weather permitting, I would be outside and laying on a nice patch of grass somewhere, or on bedding if the ground was too cold.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree with this outlook. The group dynamic beyond 5 people that is being proposed could rapidly deteriorate into dysfunction unless these people are people that you have done specifically this type of exercise on a regular basis, ie bugging out for a 3 day trial to see how this would work. In an earlier thread the OP proposed bugging out on foot with a pack that would hold supplies for 2 persons (he and his wife) and multiple weapons, with an underlying medical conditons for both. I think the plan of using the cars as a shelter beyond 3 days is iffy. I can only speak from my own experience of doing week long canoe trips and transporting large groups of people. I think that sleeping in a car or vehicle would be interrupted sleep at best, after several days of this, judgment begins to be impaired, bad decisions are made and consequences are realized. Bugging out without a destination or structure to occupy, is not a longer term strategy beyond a few days. It all gets back to the basics: Water Food Shelter Personal Wellbeing which is an all encompassing term for (fire, tools, security, first aid, etc) Any missing pieces of this puzzle could make life difficult. Tell you what OP, go out and sleep in your car tonight either in your garage or better yet, parked out in the driveway. This could give you a feel for what you are proposing to do without actually having to do it for real.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Slippy. look on the bright side. You don't have to feed Mr. DS until he does whatever work you want him to do. ("He who does not work, does not eat.") You have a laborer for the dirtiest and hardest jobs on the homestead - cleaning out the chicken house, turning compost, digging the outhouse, carrying water, chopping wood, etc, etc.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

dannydefense said:


> View attachment 6451
> 
> 
> I see so many ARs that you just know are built with nothing but "the best", and the owner hasn't gotten the slightest clue why it's on there. Not just the ninjafied weapons, even the nice minimalist builds, with the $200 Magpul UBR, Troy BUIS and Battlecomp brake; all excellent pieces, but do you have any clue why they're on your setup?
> ...


DD,
Dipshit hasn't taken the Trijicon out of the box. He was bragging to my son about buying it, he doesn't brag to me anymore because I just look at him without smiling and shaking my head slowly back and forth. My son still listens to his shit because he is a good boy and respects his elders. A few Christmases ago, same son got a nice Knife for a gift from us. Dipshit looked at it and cut his finger and bled like a pig. I offerred to close it up with some hockey tape and super glue and Dipshit didn't want to do that so he went to the Urgent Care Place on Christmas Morning! BWWAAAA HAAAA....We still laugh to this day.

But if I had to guess, his new optic is one of the Trijicon RMR's. Once again, my iron sights work just fine and if I want to varmint hunt with my M4, a Lueopold or iron sights work fine for me.


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## Dalarast (May 16, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> Go to Virginia beach, steal a boat(s) big enough for your group and head to Argentina hide in the mountains? If fallout is that bad, sorry to say it will probably make it over here to WV too. Maybe I should go with ya?


Hey you stop that.... there is enough people down here  Okay perhaps we can afford 10 more like minded people; but remember when entering Hampton Roads you are entering a huge military town.... if DC so was struck by a Nuke so would Norfolk. If not a Nuke and perhaps a nuclear plant goes off near Richmond (Lake Anne perhaps) than Hampton Roads would be a logical place to relocate to; but I do not see that as being SHTF and the movement either to the mountains or my neck of the woods being temporary.

To the OP - If you can escape the rush out of Richmond and other cities farther West than you who would all be escaping South and West than you may have a chance to make it all the way to WV. But here is what you need to add to your plan.. Radiation poison is heading south toward your home town... how much time do you have to escape? Do you have the items pre-loaded to be tossed in the vehicles and roll? To be ahead of that bubble its your only option I would think. This also takes in mind that when this happens you and your group are all staged to roll. Having to wait on the members to arrive could mean losing your window of opportunity. I'm assuming Nuclear bomb is the concern so you would also have to figure how fast fall out will reach you and the risk or precautions you would have to take to be able to drive in a potential radiation cloud.

A single nuclear bomb would not be the end of the world event but would cause major destabilization to Virginia for weeks/months; but the economy would still be there and when in WV you would not be living in your car but staying in lodging at Snow Shoe  If it was a massive strike than you have to figure with the rest of them about long term survival in your car... Does anyone in this group have the farming skills as mentioned by others? I have a large SUV and could probably manage myself and wife and two kids with enough storage maybe for 3-6 months (not really counting water). The lifestraw is a great tool; but if radiation is leaving from DC due to a massive strike you may be subject to fallout if not from DC than from surrounding bases/known missile silos to the west of your location where it would travel and pollute your water sources.....

Note: since I live in Virginia Beach if a nuke hit Norfolk I would kiss my arse goodbye... if we were able to survive we would shelter in place until radioactive ash would bypass us before moving to our bugout location. This may change due to factors of the radiation storms. We would have no possible way to escape from radiation in this scenario for us...

Slippy -

You know what would teach your brother-in-law a lesson and perhaps straighten him up to be more productive? Have that optic find its way to my location... it would so teach him a lesson. It would be my pleasure to help...


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## Renec (Dec 21, 2012)

here is a thought that came to mind....
Fort Pleasant


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## Renec (Dec 21, 2012)

you'd be surprised what 2 guys can build in a weekend..let alone 3-6 months and 10 extra pairs of hands..those not hunting/gathering/patrolling should be building. Even if you plan to eventually leave..it's nice to know there may be a semi permanent shelter available...
or series of shelters maybe?


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## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

Build youself an online group with said people and discuss all of these issues with them prior to needing to


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## Renec (Dec 21, 2012)

Jeep..isn't that what we are doing? 
I realized that several of the members of this forum are local to me..and now have radio freqs if needed!
If/when it all falls apart..i'll be sure to be listening for each and everyone of you..starting via CB and hoping to learn and move to HAM eventually.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Dalarast said:


> Slippy -
> 
> You know what would teach your brother-in-law a lesson and perhaps straighten him up to be more productive? Have that optic find its way to my location... it would so teach him a lesson. It would be my pleasure to help...


I hear you Dal!
I am slowly laying the ground work to "relieve" him of some of his possessions. He has 3 AR's that he HAS NOT SHOT. I REPEAT HE HAS NOT SHOT THEM EVER!


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Slippy said:


> Let me lay out my plan that I've implemented;
> 
> Buy some land, acreage in a rural setting and prepare it for year round living. Save money to improve the land. Research, Learn and Research some more. Build or renovate a home on the land and make sure you have proper sewage disposal, water access, a good passive solar design, designate areas for garden plots, livestock, security points and some recreational areas.
> 
> ...


well that was a long time coming


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

I can throw spanners, but that's not too good

learn to survive in the desert, not popular, everyone wants bush, bush, rainforest, bush, but not Hillary's bush... 

no one likes the desert, with the right skills small groups can thrive... so a plan B


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

pheniox17 said:


> Lol in your case BL take the first possible boat to Australia


It would have to be a really big boat, or peeps would mistake me for a lil green alien...:shock:


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## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

Renec I meant an online group for his specific people so they could hold meetings, I ain't in his neck of the woods. And as far as a Nuclear accident goes I think its a bit different than a 500 megaton warhead exploding,detonating


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

BagLady said:


> It would have to be a really big boat, or peeps would mistake me for a lil green alien...:shock:


if your engrish skills are better than well mine (not asking much am I Lol) you will be welcomed with open arms  or sent to Indonesia


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

I agree completely. We have a cabin in the mountains - 7,000 ft elevation, big pines, lots of water, lots of big game..... and lots of snow. When it comes to food for survival, however, the Sonoran Desert has it hands down over the mountains. Of course, water = survival here, but there is an abundance of food for the taking, nearly year round. I finished the mesquite bean harvest earlier this month, and spent the day today making prickly pear juice. First harvest of the year are the cholla cactus buds and prickly pear pads, and then the paloverde beans. An infinite variety of greens. Lots of small game and birds. As long as there are mesquite trees and prickly pear, there will be pack rats, which are the size of a small squirrel and taste like rabbit. And the warm temps are totally conducive for raising my crickets. Native people lived here for thousands of years, so I know we can, too. Just have to get into the cycle of the seasons and when each food source is available.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Sorry, but I don't buy into this idea of heading to the coast. I am a sailor and I watch the weather probably more than I should. But invariably, the weather systems go from west to east. I can't speak for a specific day in the future, but if I had to bet, I would predict that any nuclear fallout from an attack on Washington, DC, would head east or southeast (putting me in the risk area). So .. at this time ... my base plan is to head west and --- to answer another poster -- to be ready to roll in a manner of minutes (not hours or days) of receiving the news. My "group" would be prepped exactly like me. We would be trained (together) and if we do it right, we will have already gone through several dry runs and ironed out some issues. 

Once we embark -- any number of roadblocks can jump up in front of us. There is an old saying or quotation which escapes me right now -- but essentially it talks about how the best preparation for war goes out the window immediately after the first few minutes of live fire. So I only know a few basic things:

In no particular order:

1. We'll keep our group relatively low -- figure 10 adults, in five vehicles.
2. We'll all have heavily prepared/packed equipment ready to toss into 4-wheel drive SUVs, with specific items assigned to each vehicle -- but also with redundancy.
3. We will have seeds and implements to plant gardens, etc., and have knowledge in this area. Same goes for fishing and hunting. 
3. During our planning, we will select a remote location -- and if lucky, it will be property owned by one of our members. We will have a back-up location for contingency.
4. We will have a Plan C (like heading southeast) just in case Plan A & B, are totally unfeasible. Plan C may also involve driving further than one tank of gas, in which case a high priority will be locating gas stations in service, and/or siphoning from vehicles. 
5. We will have some form of leadership already in place. Hellsbells, I might even be the one in charge.
6. Without taking into consideration fish and wildlife, we will have survival provisions to last at least 3 months. I think bringing enough drinking water would be the biggest challenge for 3 months subsistence. 
7. We will be prepared with topo maps of all the areas we intend going or possibly going. 
8. As we build our group slowly, we will seek out specific areas of expertise - like medical training, survivalist experts, and if lucky -- even someone with special forces training. 
9. To erect shelters, our equipment will include a good supply of hand construction tools (hammers, saws, etc., including a good selection of nails, wire, and other fasteners). 
10. At a minimum, we will be equipped with Motorola Talkabouts (one for each person), CB radios in each vehicle, one or more hand-held 3 channel HAM radios, with external antennas. We'll also have a good supply of hand-held GPSs, lensatic compasses, and will have undergone basic training in all of those. Car chargers for all the electronic gear. Backup battery packs for some of the electronics (like the hand-held HAM). 

At the moment, that compiles my list of known things I (we) can prepare for. I am sure there are a few more, but you get the idea. What happens long-term at our destination is unknown. But we will be adaptable as much as possible.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

RNprepper said:


> I agree completely. We have a cabin in the mountains - 7,000 ft elevation, big pines, lots of water, lots of big game..... and lots of snow. When it comes to food for survival, however, the Sonoran Desert has it hands down over the mountains. Of course, water = survival here, but there is an abundance of food for the taking, nearly year round. I finished the mesquite bean harvest earlier this month, and spent the day today making prickly pear juice. First harvest of the year are the cholla cactus buds and prickly pear pads, and then the paloverde beans. An infinite variety of greens. Lots of small game and birds. As long as there are mesquite trees and prickly pear, there will be pack rats, which are the size of a small squirrel and taste like rabbit. And the warm temps are totally conducive for raising my crickets. Native people lived here for thousands of years, so I know we can, too. Just have to get into the cycle of the seasons and when each food source is available.


Sounds perfect to me.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

pheniox17 said:


> learn to survive in the desert, not popular, everyone wants bush, bush, rainforest, bush, but not Hillary's bush...
> 
> no one likes the desert, with the right skills small groups can thrive... so a plan B


Thankfully I'm now situated in a semi-arid desert as opposed to the 100 degree average back in Nevada, but I will say; don't come to the desert unless you are extremely well prepared for it. Every habitat has it's own challenges and things that can kill you at a moments notice, but you have a much better chance of accidentally surviving in almost any other environment. People die in the desert that are trained to survive there. People have died in 15 minutes flat trying to hike death valley unprepared.

If shelter in place fails, we'll be leaving for greener pastures, no doubt about it (no doot aboot it for the Canadians).


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

dannydefense said:


> Thankfully I'm now situated in a semi-arid desert as opposed to the 100 degree average back in Nevada, but I will say; don't come to the desert unless you are extremely well prepared for it. Every habitat has it's own challenges and things that can kill you at a moments notice, but you have a much better chance of accidentally surviving in almost any other environment. People die in the desert that are trained to survive there. People have died in 15 minutes flat trying to hike death valley unprepared.
> 
> If shelter in place fails, we'll be leaving for greener pastures, no doubt about it (no doot aboot it for the Canadians).


Absolutely! Your warning is completely warranted. Hundreds of bodies are scooped up from our southern border every year. Do NOT come to the desert! Do NOT come to Arizona! There is nothing here but scorpions, rattlesnakes, killer heat, and mirages. It's the last place on earth you want to be. Go to Canada or the Appalachians. Head East :arrow:, anywhere but here.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

RNprepper said:


> Absolutely! Your warning is completely warranted. Hundreds of bodies are scooped up from our southern border every year. Do NOT come to the desert! Do NOT come to Arizona! There is nothing here but scorpions, rattlesnakes, killer heat, and mirages. It's the last place on earth you want to be. Go to Canada or the Appalachians. Head East :arrow:, anywhere but here.


I'll let Mrs. Palin handle this one:


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

dannydefense said:


> I'll let Mrs. Palin handle this one:
> 
> View attachment 6458


You are a sharp tack, DD.


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## Dalarast (May 16, 2014)

RNprepper said:


> Absolutely! Your warning is completely warranted. Hundreds of bodies are scooped up from our southern border every year. Do NOT come to the desert! Do NOT come to Arizona! There is nothing here but scorpions, rattlesnakes, killer heat, and mirages. It's the last place on earth you want to be. Go to Canada or the Appalachians. Head East :arrow:, anywhere but here.


Huh... what....

I'm just thinking as I sit here in my CLU in the desert...this environment is so friendly to potential people trying to survive off the land. Mu-hahaha. You know the French offer a joint-forces course on desert survival... hmmm I'm heading your way 



DerBiermeister said:


> At the moment, that compiles my list of known things I (we) can prepare for. I am sure there are a few more, but you get the idea. What happens long-term at our destination is unknown. But we will be adaptable as much as possible.


Derbiermeister - Sounds like a good plan. One thing that you consider, if possible, would be to stage equipment in a trailer for bugging out. This brings with it its own problems; but makes for an easier option to bug out with. Or just have ready packed gorilla boxes ready to be tossed in and roll.

With your contingency plans make sure you include one as a meet up. Unless you have your group all live next to each other have pre designated rally points for each of the planned locations. This would allow freedom of movement to get out of "danger" areas quickly without sacrificing the entire group.

The next thing I just want to ask is.... what happens if a nuke never drops? Economic collapse, EMP, etc... I would insure you include planning and, if not sticking to the same plan, routes and such for that.

And if you want to be extra thoughtful on your planning make sure you also look at other potential targets in the event of a nuclear blast. If someone was to Nuke DC it would unite the U.S. to strike back than break us. If an enemy, say France (dirty frenchies), wanted to really cause havoc in the U.S. they would do multiple strikes across the continent to insure we do not strike back. A lot of that radiation will be coming our way from the West.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

dannydefense said:


> Thankfully I'm now situated in a semi-arid desert as opposed to the 100 degree average back in Nevada, but I will say; don't come to the desert unless you are extremely well prepared for it. Every habitat has it's own challenges and things that can kill you at a moments notice, but you have a much better chance of accidentally surviving in almost any other environment. People die in the desert that are trained to survive there. People have died in 15 minutes flat trying to hike death valley unprepared.
> 
> If shelter in place fails, we'll be leaving for greener pastures, no doubt about it (no doot aboot it for the Canadians).


Lol you see my point... very undesirable!!!

but in this environment, chances are your only battling the environment not the 2 legged zombie types...

again not plan A but everyone always scream bush bush bush!! (I like some bush too  ) but all environments are survivable, just some are more predictable than others, and the largest spanner in all our plans is man.... most areas will be stripped of raw materials, food, water will be polluted with human waste, we all know this....


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