# Canning question



## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hello all you canning experts! I need some input.
I am an experienced canner for years now. Lately I have experimented with pressure canning tomatoes instead of water bath canning. This takes less water and fuel, and most important it doesn’t heat up the kitchen as much! Yesterday I processed 2 pints of the first tomatoes from my garden. After pressure canning, my liquid level inside the jars is down pretty far, too far. Yes I removed all the air pockets from the jars before processing. Anyone have any experience with maybe pressure canning causing more liquid loss from the jars than water bath canning?

FYI, I processed the pints 20 minutes at 10psi.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> Hello all you canning experts! I need some input.
> I am an experienced canner for years now. Lately I have experimented with pressure canning tomatoes instead of water bath canning. This takes less water and fuel, and most important it doesn't heat up the kitchen as much! Yesterday I processed 2 pints of the first tomatoes from my garden. After pressure canning, my liquid level inside the jars is down pretty far, too far. Yes I removed all the air pockets from the jars before processing. Anyone have any experience with maybe pressure canning causing more liquid loss from the jars than water bath canning?
> 
> FYI, I processed the pints 20 minutes at 10psi.


I assume you know this but.......

Not allowing canner to cool on it's own (running under cold water), or not letting pressure come down on it's own( removing jiggler) will cause that.

I'll also assume jars had no nicks and sealing area of jars/lids were clean to start with.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

Mad Trapper said:


> I assume you know this but.......
> 
> Not allowing canner to cool on it's own (running under cold water), or not letting pressure come down on it's own( removing jiggler) will cause that.
> 
> I'll also assume jars had no nicks and sealing area of jars/lids were clean to start with.


ditto - only reason why that happens >> could possibly happen if you run it dry - ??

need to have patience pressure canning compared to hot water - plan on spending the day ....


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

I allowed the canner to cool down naturally. No nicks or damage to the jars. And I didn’t run it dry. Possibly I didn’t have the rings screwed down tight enough? I used to tighten them Down pretty snug. Last year I started to go a little looser based on published canning guidlines. Maybe I should go back tighter. Most guides say finger tight. I used to go tighter than that and I didn’t really experience any problems.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> I allowed the canner to cool down naturally. No nicks or damage to the jars. And I didn't run it dry. Possibly I didn't have the rings screwed down tight enough? I used to tighten them Down pretty snug. Last year I started to go a little looser based on published canning guidlines. Maybe I should go back tighter. Most guides say finger tight. I used to go tighter than that and I didn't really experience any problems.


Using a jiggler? If so you may have been running the jiggler to fast. Which will cause a higher temp than needed and may have caused the siphoning from your jars. Lower the temp so the jiggler just chugs along slowing the cadence of the rocking jiggler


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Jiggler rattling slowly so as to minimize fuel use.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

I just googled it and looked thru multiple articles on this subject. There are a few causes but all agree that as long as I dont lose more than half the liquid, no problem. So I’m not gonna worry about it. There may be some food discoloring but it will still be safe.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> Jiggler rattling slowly so as to minimize fuel use.


Is your fuel source fluctuating? Glass top stove are famous for the temp swings.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

No. Propane stove. Set the burner for a slow jiggle and leave it alone until done.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

I'm definitely not an expert on PC since I've only been doing it for the last year.....but siphoning happens and as you've already found out, it's still ok & good to eat. 

But do NOT tighten the lids more than first resistance, or the jars may explode. As pressure builds and is maintained within the canner, so it is within the jars...it needs an escape. The canner has the pressure valves & whatnot to allow excess pressure to be relieved...jars with tight lids do not

Also, density of the food can be a problem. Tomatoes aren't all that dense, but I tried applesauce one time and I'll never do that again in a PC. Nearly every jar threw up inside the canner creating a huge mess to clean up. 


My canner has both the gauge and weight jiggler, and was told it should only jiggle about 3 or 4 times a minute but doing that, the pressure only reads around 7 to 8lbs. Getting it to read 10lbs and it jiggles a whole lot more than that. It's something I'm still working on to find that sweet spot for both gauge and weights, I do keep an eye & ear out for both and when it gets within range of 'there', I go by the gauge, regardless of the weights. And this gray area between the two, may have to do with my corn getting flat sour (being processed at too high of temp and/or too long that creates the bacteria that loves and grows in the heat, which is just the opposite of Botulism that is killed off by heat)


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

When you opened the canner was there evidence that the jars "puked" out any contents? Visible and/or smell?

One other thought, did you vent the steam for a few minutes before putting on jiggler? Not sure if that would cause loss of contents, problem is air instead of 100% steam to get proper temp/pressure.

If jars sealed they should be fine.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

JustAnotherNut said:


> I'm definitely not an expert on PC since I've only been doing it for the last year.....but siphoning happens and as you've already found out, it's still ok & good to eat.
> 
> But do NOT tighten the lids more than first resistance, or the jars may explode. As pressure builds and is maintained within the canner, so it is within the jars...it needs an escape. The canner has the pressure valves & whatnot to allow excess pressure to be relieved...jars with tight lids do not
> 
> ...


Do not go by the guage! Guages are well known for being inaccurate and unless you are willing to get the guage recalibrated every year, I would just ignore it. On the other hand, that jiggler is designed to maintain a specific pressure. And the weight of that jiggler isn't going to vary or get out of calibration. Trust me on this. I'm a retired engineer.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> Do not go by the guage! Guages are well known for being inaccurate and unless you are willing to get the guage recalibrated every year, I would just ignore it. On the other hand, that jiggler is designed to maintain a specific pressure. And the weight of that jiggler isn't going to vary or get out of calibration. Trust me on this. I'm a retired engineer.


Yup a gauge will get you in trouble especially if not tested at the beginning of each canning season. And a jiggle 3 or 4 times a minute is ridicules and incorrect.

This is a reasonable speed for a typical jiggler-


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hawg! Great information but it applies to presto canners. All American canners call for the weight to lift (or jiggle) 1 to 4 times every minute. All American uses a different style of weight that is meant to lift, not rock from side to side.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> Hawg! Great information but it applies to presto canners. All American canners call for the weight to lift (or jiggle) 1 to 4 times every minute. All American uses a different style of weight that is meant to lift, not rock from side to side.


 In my defense nowhere in the post was an American mentioned I have presto's-



> My canner has both the gauge and weight jiggler, and was told it should only jiggle about 3 or 4 times a minute but doing that, the pressure only reads around 7 to 8lbs. Getting it to read 10lbs and it jiggles a whole lot more than that. It's something I'm still working on to find that sweet spot for both gauge and weights, I do keep an eye & ear out for both and when it gets within range of 'there', I go by the gauge, regardless of the weights. And this gray area between the two, may have to do with my corn getting flat sour (being processed at too high of temp and/or too long that creates the bacteria that loves and grows in the heat, which is just the opposite of Botulism that is killed off by heat)


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

No defense needed my friend!!! We are all here to share information and hopefully keep each other safe. I vaguely remembered that 1 to 4 jiggles per minute, and looked in my manual to verify. All good as long as nobody gets hurt or sick.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

All my cooker/canners are old USA made Mirrormatics, 4- 22- quart.

They still make canners, but not the same, a Brazilian import now. Another good USA company gone/outsourcing......

The old Mirros all use the same vent and jiggler. Very simple, reliable and durable. The only wear item is the rubber gasket, which last years if cleaned and taken care of. No calibrations to worry about and canning you just need to vent air, then put on jiggler, and adjust heat input. I try to keep extra gaskets on hand.

















One more thought on @Chiefster23 problem, was the rack on the bottom of the canner in place to keep it off the bottom?


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Yes, rack in place. One possible cause noted in the articles I saw this morning was that some veggies are just naurally less dense and will shrink during processing. Maybe? Dunno?


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> Yes, rack in place. One possible cause noted in the articles I saw this morning was that some veggies are just naurally less dense and will shrink during processing. Maybe? Dunno?


Were the tomatoes a sauce/puree, or whole fruit?. If whole fruit might want to do a puree next time.

I have to be careful pickling whole hot peppers, as they have a lot of air inside. I stab them in a few places and work them around to fill with picking broth.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Chiefster23 said:


> Do not go by the guage! Guages are well known for being inaccurate and unless you are willing to get the guage recalibrated every year, I would just ignore it. On the other hand, that jiggler is designed to maintain a specific pressure. And the weight of that jiggler isn't going to vary or get out of calibration. Trust me on this. I'm a retired engineer.


Actually it's all good since the gauge may be off (which I've wondered about) on the under side (reading lower than actual).....so to get it to read right, I'm processing at too high of pressure. I'm just glad my canner has both, one to back up the other.......and I'm glad we've had this discussion, to know the jiggle weight is a reliable indicator that won't change over time. Thanks


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

hawgrider said:


> Yup a gauge will get you in trouble especially if not tested at the beginning of each canning season. And a jiggle 3 or 4 times a minute is ridicules and incorrect.
> 
> This is a reasonable speed for a typical jiggler-


Thank you....that's what I needed to know.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Chiefster23 said:


> Hawg! Great information but it applies to presto canners. All American canners call for the weight to lift (or jiggle) 1 to 4 times every minute. All American uses a different style of weight that is meant to lift, not rock from side to side.


And I think those that told me about the 1 to 4 times a minute had All Americans, I have a Presto.......so it's good to know there is more differences between the two canners


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

hawgrider said:


> In my defense nowhere in the post was an American mentioned I have presto's-


That style jiggler is nearly identical to USA made Mirromatics, 1-4 jiggles/minute.

How do you adjust pressure on a Presto jiggler? The American and Mirromatic jigglers have bores for 5- 10- and 15- psi


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Mad Trapper said:


> That style jiggler is nearly identical to USA made Mirromatics, 1-4 jiggles/minute.
> 
> How do you adjust pressure on a Presto jiggler? The American and Mirromatic jigglers have bores for 5- 10- and 15- psi


On my Presto, it has separate rings 5 lbs each, plus the jiggler itself is 5 lbs.....so if you need to process something at 5lbs, you only add the jiggler. If you need 10lbs, you add one ring to the jiggler to equal 10 and if you need 15lbs you add the second ring. or better yet, I think they're called weights. Same thing, sort of


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

JustAnotherNut said:


> I'm definitely not an expert on PC since I've only been doing it for the last year.....but siphoning happens and as you've already found out, it's still ok & good to eat.
> 
> But do NOT tighten the lids more than first resistance, or the jars may explode. As pressure builds and is maintained within the canner, so it is within the jars...it needs an escape. The canner has the pressure valves & whatnot to allow excess pressure to be relieved...jars with tight lids do not
> 
> ...


You're not going to *create* thermophillic bacteria by canning at too high of temperature or too long. Those bacteria live in thermal vents at the bottom of the ocean or in hot springs like Old Faithful at Yellowstone. It might make your corn/vegetables mushy though.

Using weighted jiggler process times are at 10-psi for elev. < 1000 feet, 15-psi above 1000 feet elev. I can't remember what elev. 15-psi would not be effective/canner to reach 240 oF? It is above 8000 feet

For some high acid foods/pickeled, it may recommend only using 5-psi. But those foods can be safely canned in a water bath canner

Don't trust a gauge unless it's calibrated.

https://nchfp.uga.edu/how/can_home.html


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Mad Trapper said:


> You're not going to *create* thermophillic bacteria by canning at too high of temperature or too long. Those bacteria live in thermal vents at the bottom of the ocean or in hot springs like Old Faithful at Yellowstone. It might make your corn/vegetables mushy though.
> 
> Using weighted jiggler process times are at 10-psi for elev. < 1000 feet, 15-psi above 1000 feet elev. I can't remember what elev. 15-psi would not be effective/canner to reach 240 oF? It is above 8000 feet
> 
> ...


Well if there's a way for me to create a problem, you can bet I'll find it, usually by accident......but you're right that it isn't done in the canning process itself, but not allowing the jars to cool properly afterward.

For the last few years when canning corn, it tasted sour....kinda like pickled, and the only thing I put in those jars was corn and water. I don't even add canning salt. So doing some research to find out why that was happening, I found this about flat sour....

https://www.healthycanning.com/flat...than one organism.” [1] Bitting, Arvill Wayne.

*Flat sour is an unappealing off-flavour that canned goods, home or commerical, can develop. It was studied as early as 1937 by a researcher named Barlow: "[Barlow] also described several causes of flat sours and recognized that the flat sour may be caused by more than one organism." [1]
It is caused by some microorganisms that survive the canning process. They are referred to as thermophilic (aka "heat loving"). The actual bacteria that cause it can include (depending on the food product) strains of Bacillus stearothermophilus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus coagulans, Bacillus macerans, and Bacillus subtilis. [2]
They are harmless with regard to food safety, but they cause the food to ferment in a way that produces a sour off-taste and smell without producing any gas. Metal cans will not bulge, nor will lids pop off of jars as there is no gas to cause that.

It is described as sour because of the taste and smell, and flat because it doesn't produce gas that could bulge or blow the lid*

Strangest thing is that I've been canning for around 40 years now and 20 of that in this house....but have only had this problem develop in just the last 5 years and is always with corn.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

JustAnotherNut said:


> Well if there's a way for me to create a problem, you can bet I'll find it, usually by accident......but you're right that it isn't done in the canning process itself, but not allowing the jars to cool properly afterward.
> 
> For the last few years when canning corn, it tasted sour....kinda like pickled, and the only thing I put in those jars was corn and water. I don't even add canning salt. So doing some research to find out why that was happening, I found this about flat sour....
> 
> ...


I learned something there.

Seems the flat sour is due to not cooling the canned material, as soon as possible after pressure is down. And thermophillic bacteria are more widespread than I knew about.

I've always removed my jars from the canner soon after processing. Perhaps that is why I've not had the problem?


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Mad Trapper said:


> I learned something there.
> 
> Seems the flat sour is due to not cooling the canned material, as soon as possible after pressure is down. And thermophillic bacteria are more widespread than I knew about.
> 
> I've always removed my jars from the canner soon after processing. Perhaps that is why I've not had the problem?


I do too. With the PC, I wait until the gauge is 0 and the little vent doohickey drops and about a minute or so after. Then turn the lid slowly....so it actually takes another minute or two and I do that because it's supposed to help with siphoning. 
I've only had the PC for just over a year. Previously I had only waterbath canned, and still had the problem, but my plan for this year is to do my canning in the fall/winter and in the meantime, stuff is going in the freezer until then.


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