# Is Healthcare in the US getting Better, Worse or just More Inconsistent?



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't know what to think at this point about the state of the Healthcare Industry. Me and Mrs Slippy's #1 Biggest Annual Expense is now Health Care/Health Insurance.

In the past 10 years I have had a few major surgeries that were huge successes. On the other hand, I have had a number of minor medical situations where errors, misdiagnosis and incorrect treatment options have occurred but should have been avoided.

The red-tape sure has increased and the lead times to get appointments are sometimes out of hand depending on where you live. And sadly, in my opinion, most docs just don't seem to give a shit anymore.

What say you? And more importantly, what can be done to correct this horrible trend?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

With the exception of a couple doctors, it seems most I know or deal with aren't willing to think. They rely on tests and if their go-to tests reveal nothing, they say there is nothing to reveal.
Sure, you leave with symptoms in tow, but you paid the 25 dollar copay and the insurance company is billed.

I'm also not very happy with this idea of nurse practitioners seeing the patients so the office can run more cattle through the office.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

For the most part, Healthcare doesn't create health as Dr Berg says it manages symptoms. I think we live in a day and age where we're lucky to have so many resources available to us, because it's important for us to be our own detectives when it comes to managing our health. That said, the cost is out of hand thanks to the fact that so many people can't afford coverage which leaves everybody else paying the bills.

Sent from my SM-S337TL using Tapatalk


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I say it’s going to implode. I see more insurance company interfence on treatment, less coverage due to higher deductibles so people wait until it’s an emergency. The only people making out are ones that have low income and previously had no coverage that now have free or next to free coverage. I pay theee times as much for worse coverage. The hospitals and doctors for the most part are not getting higher reimbusement and in some cases less. Having to buy my own is no bargain. My coverage was much better prior to Obama.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Denton said:


> With the exception of a couple doctors, it seems most I know or deal with aren't willing to think. They rely on tests and if their go-to tests reveal nothing, they say there is nothing to reveal.
> Sure, you leave with symptoms in tow, but you paid the 25 dollar copay and the insurance company is billed.
> 
> I'm also not very happy with this idea of nurse practitioners seeing the patients so the office can run more cattle through the office.


The result of have to do more with less. It will get worse before it gets better. JMHO.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

If you can afford the high end health insurance (over $20,000 a year now) or to be full self insured it is as good as it gets. Everyone else is on Obama care weather it is called that or not. care is discounted big time.
In addition to your copay you now have a fee.
You can keep your doctor , however if they go over what we allow that is on you. 
We will decided what test are needed and you must apply for them 6 months in advance ect.
Coverage we had before Obama Care was many times better and less than half the cost.
One up side president Trump has had an effect on the VA. It is getting better from where I stand. In the past they would not even work with my other doctor , now they are fully working together.
For the first time the VA is on the side of making sure what the issue is rather than just not caring. Test done on the last visit were more complete than ever before.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

I have a biased opinion of the health care industry for several reasons: 

My son and daughter-in-law are both nurse practitioners, . . . two highly intelligent, . . . very caring, . . . thorough, . . . and resourceful young people. Their patients are fortunate to have them on their team.

I have celebrated fairly good health all my life, . . . with the exception of a lousy gall bladder that I didn't need any longer, . . . a pig valve operating in my aorta, . . . no more tonsils, . . . 

I still have 23 or 24 of my tooth allotment of 32, . . . I don't have to squint to see a dog sized animal until it is out beyond 500 yards, . . . 

My worst presently known health dilemma is the diabetic foot pain I suffer through, . . . and the migraine headaches. Neither responds well to the meds I take, . . . but at least they are managed by the meds down to a level where I can live with them.

But then again, . . . I'm only 73, . . . so as I progress, . . . who knows what may happen.

Mostly I'm just waiting for the day the doc looks at me and says, "Well, Agent Orange has caught you", . . . it has taken down a boatload of my friends.

But all in all I think the US has the singularly best health care system in the world, . . . so far I've not found anyone who has been able to show where any other nation, . . . anywhere, . . . has all the options we have for their people. 

Each person is their own best advocate for their health care / health problems. If you have a problem, . . . keep asking, . . . change doctors, . . . keep pushing until you find out what it is. That singular piece of advice has done well for me down through the years.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Yes healthcare in America is among the best in the world. But that doesn’t mean it is anywhere near as good as it could/should be. The government has gotten big and dictates coverage and piles on the regulations. Insurance companies run virtual monopolies and dictate decisions only on cost.......they couldn’t care less about your health outcome. The courts are involved so doctors are scared shitless to make a diagnosis without a whole battery of expensive and often unnecessary tests. And those who can pay are forced to pay for those who can’t or won’t pay. The whole system sucks.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Technology has certainly gotten much better, some of it is amazing. But like Denton says, too many docs are simply relying on a protocol of tests and if a particular result is beyond a standard deviation then and only then they take action.

In the past 6 years I have had two major infections resulting from a cuts that I incurred and for whatever reason both times it resulted in fairly serious infections. Both instances I went to a regular doctor (internist or family pract) and was given weak anti-biotics. In a matter of a week or 10 the situations had gotten worse.

Both times I went to the emergency room and was given a much stronger dose of antibiotics which cleared the infection up quickly and effeciently. 

Why didn't the family MD's know how to cure the situation but the emergency MD's did? Just one example and I'm sure all of us have many more stories.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Like anything in the world when money gets to be a big factor then governments step in and take control(of the money) in the name of being fare and equal, that is when things begin to go down hill fast. Quickest way to ruin anything is to get the government involved. Why you ask, lawyers. They love money, especially other peoples money that they can steal through the legal system, which they write/create. And most if not all politicians are lawyers, so you decide what the major problem is yourself!


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Its not healthcare any more, it is healthbusiness. The personal care and relationships are mostly gone as the process is bogged down by protocols and layers of corporate oversight. In recent years I have gone to see a former Dr about a particular issue and brought up another inquiry, and was told I would have to make another appointment to discuss it, as per insurance rules. Doesn't sound like healthcare to me, does it?


These days in reality, I have it better than most and likely as good as it can get. As a result of my wife being employed in the OR at a hospital, I have great insurance with a low deductible and easy premiums. I also found a Doctor that my Dad used, who runs his small general practice like a family affair ….. He has only one nurse, his wife ….. his front receptionist is his daughter.


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

I've gone from $40 a month company plan for Med/dent/vision and a $2k deductible 15 years ago to $350 for Med. $6K deductible company plan with same Ins company. I'm paying out more for my recent $25k surgery then I paid for my $40k surgery 12 years ago.

But hey, if you just commissioned a new mega yacht, you're going to need a brand new helicopter to go with it right?


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I have great doctors. They helped me through psychiatric therapy, lots of "reassurance" meetings, several "soft tissue" oral exams, and a spooky eye operation.

Only in America.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

I think people are so out of touch with reality, that every ailment they have they feel they need to get to an ER or a Doctor. People cant take care of themselves for the most part. Doctors/Nurses are understaffed overworked. 
I noticed after the wars, our military medicine became much better and technology due to experiences in the field made our docs and nurses better.
I am sure many civilian docs/nurses benefited too.
But, People in the USA generally dont take care of themselves. We dont treat our bodys like temples. We only do that to our cars, toys and gadgets.


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## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

I would say it depends on where you live in the United States. The more affluent areas will have the most skills doctors, surgeons, nurses and other specialists. This is not all the time of course but I would say generally people are attracted by money. 

I have had very good nurses give me advice and help me. I’ve had specialists who seem to have gotten their degree online. 

I voted it is better in a general sense. Our technology is getting better, and a good health care system is there. There are websites you can go to where doctors in your area are reviewed and if you like what you see you can set an appointment. Using the available information and getting a good doctor is more in our control than it was 20 years ago I would say.


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

It's the best in the world, hands down.

Research never stops; it gets better every hour of every day.


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## tirednurse (Oct 2, 2013)

Denton said:


> With the exception of a couple doctors, it seems most I know or deal with aren't willing to think. They rely on tests and if their go-to tests reveal nothing, they say there is nothing to reveal.
> Sure, you leave with symptoms in tow, but you paid the 25 dollar copay and the insurance company is billed.
> 
> I'm also not very happy with this idea of nurse practitioners seeing the patients so the office can run more cattle through the office.


From what I see it is the nurse practitioners that are actually doing all the hard work, and still have the heart to care about what they are doing. Yes there are still some good Docs but the majority have become so stuck in their own worlds they can not think beyond its walls.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

tirednurse said:


> From what I see it is the nurse practitioners that are actually doing all the hard work, and still have the heart to care about what they are doing. Yes there are still some good Docs but the majority have become so stuck in their own worlds they can not think beyond its walls.


The nurse practitioners have always been wrong, except for the one who saw my wife after I called as I was bringing her in, and the call was not a "friendly Denton" call.

Now, having said that, let me say again, the internal med doctor is not in the least bit curious. Know what I mean? At least the nurses are always curious. They never seem to know, and I usually seem to have a better understanding, and they listen, trot off (I assume to read up) and then come back with the same thing I already knew.

I'm not knocking NPs at all. It's just that when you hire a doctor, you expect to see the doctor, and you expect that doctor to be as curious as you are.
No, I don't expect him to be Dr. House, but I do expect him to be just as much a detective as I am but with a greater level of knowledge.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

From what I understand a NP is just a pill pusher that is paid by the drug company's to go to school to get a degree and then partly pay off their education expenses by pushing the drug company's products. I can't prove it but that's what I've heard. And what I've personally seen mine and the wife's NP give out drugs to us. One time the wife got 9 different drugs for one office visit. There is more that I can site from personal experiance but you get the picture.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

ekim said:


> From what I understand a NP is just a pill pusher that is paid by the drug company's to go to school to get a degree and then partly pay off their education expenses by pushing the drug company's products. I can't prove it but that's what I've heard. And what I've personally seen mine and the wife's NP give out drugs to us. One time the wife got 9 different drugs for one office visit. There is more that I can site from personal experiance but you get the picture.


No, that is not correct. Not from my experience. The doctor under which they work will be more likely to be the pill pusher. He is the one who signs off on everything. I don't doubt their sincerity. I just wonder how much Google comes into play, from my experience.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Denton said:


> The nurse practitioners have always been wrong, except for the one who saw my wife after I called as I was bringing her in, and the call was not a "friendly Denton" call.
> 
> Now, having said that, let me say again, the internal med doctor is not in the least bit curious. Know what I mean? At least the nurses are always curious. They never seem to know, and I usually seem to have a better understanding, and they listen, trot off (I assume to read up) and then come back with the same thing I already knew.
> 
> ...


Whenever I am scheduling an appointment, they try to offer an NP as well. It's an HMO bottom line thing obviously... hire less docs, herd more through.
I ask "are you going to charge me less, or the same as a doctor"? 
"uh... yes the same". 
"Then a doctor please."
I have nothing against NP's either... but if they are going to charge for a doctor, then a doctor it will be.
The smartass in me wants to ask how much to have the janitor look me over... but I have so far resisted the temptation.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

StratMaster said:


> Whenever I am scheduling an appointment, they try to offer an NP as well. It's an HMO bottom line thing obviously... hire less docs, herd more through.
> I ask "are you going to charge me less, or the same as a doctor"?
> "uh... yes the same".
> "Then a doctor please."
> ...


I am so disgusted with me for not thinking of that!


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

We haven’t addressed the drug industry in this thread yet.
I have always been very susceptible to ear infections. Years ago I had an infection while visting some backwater port (I don’t remember which country). I visited a local doc who had been trained in Russia. He treated my ear infection by soaking a strip of gauze in a black salve and packing it down inside my ear. Next day I was cured.

Fast forward a few years later I had an ear infection here at home. My local family doc was a Russian immigrant obviously Russian trained. He prescribed the usual routine of strong antibiotics. I questioned him about the black salve. He laughed and knew it well. Said it was cheap and very effective. I asked why American doctors didn’t use the same cure. His answer, the drug companies.

Our whole system isn’t patient centered. It’s all about the $.


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

I'll take a nurse practitioner. They remind me of medics.


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## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

I see part of the problem with health care is the money behind it. Drug companies are making WAY too much money. Even some staff positions are paid more than I think it's worth. Many years ago I said out loud to a group of people, "Why are hospitals advertising to come here when you have a baby" Isn't that a pretty normal place to go to have a baby? You may have to forgive my naive upbringing, but when did delivering life, saving lives and taking care of people become a 'business'. 

It could also be said about higher education. When did colleges become such a money maker-for the college? During the 90s and early 2000s I was a fool and watched the Today Show of a morning on NBC. News was different back then, not the same now. Anyway, I remember several years in a row when Matt Laurer told me who the top 10 party colleges were... I wonder if this list is similar to the best colleges to get raped at a party? 

Medicine isn't what it once was. Doctors didn't have to worry so much about medical malpractice insurance. Do doctors not care as much now? Are they not as smart as most were 50 years ago? We're able to test for so many things, yet there is still so much they don't understand about the human body. If we spent more money on medical research and less on NFL salaries & products, would we be better off as a nation?

Who knows. I certainly have no clue.


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

BookWorm said:


> Drug companies are making WAY too much money.


Looking at only one side of the ledger is a rookie error.

Drug companies also came up with a drug that prevents open heart surgery. I'd have paid any amount.

After your first bypass, if they invent a drug that prevents the next bypass, you'll understand.


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

I will be on Medicare in one month, I did purchase a supplement for drug coverage, according to my policy I will pay $180.00 per month and the most it will cost me for out of pocket is 6700.00 per year, and that is the max, all in co-pays, I have been relatively healthy all my life......


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

I’m not a believer in government solutions but one thing the US Government could do for its people and benefit all is increase competition and decrease regulation in health care. The US has such massive resources in health care a 2% redirection from its normal course of spending into medical schools and student recruitment/subsidized learning would flood the market with nurses, practitioners et al and the schools could be charged with caring for the indigent. Keep it up until the market bends in the people’s favor, and if someone wants catastrophic insurance let them buy it already.


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

After three decades in business, I say this: "healthy" competition isn't.

I don't want a doctor who can win open competition in business. Medicine is a cooperative affair. Everything from the research through to hospice is a team effort.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Sorry but take the market out (no competition) and you just pay what the medical union demands for mediocrity. That is how socialism rolls and the competition serves everyone better.



Jammer Six said:


> After three decades in business, I say this: "healthy" competition isn't.
> 
> I don't want a doctor who can win open competition in business. Medicine is a cooperative affair. Everything from the research through to hospice is a team effort.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

My wife's ongoing medical issues has, unfortunately, brought me into more contact with the medical profession then I would have liked.

I see it as having way to many layers, to expensive, way to complicated insurance, and for the most part, a disconnected and sometimes uncaring medical staff. The family budget has been manipulated continuously to accommodate ever increasing premiums and doctors bills, not to mention the high cost of prescriptions.

My wife had to go to 3 separate doctors just to arrive at a diagnoses the first one suggested ( Protocols must be observed ) and of course with each stop that will be...... 150 bucks please, plus a prescription till your next appointment a month down the line. You pay at every stop on the line plus you have the pleasure of paying the insurance company it's stack of hundred dollar bills as well.....isn't that nice.

My heart guy prescribed blood pressure pills that originally cost me 75 bucks and went up every couple of months by 25 or 30 dollars from there. My doctor, when I asked for generic or something more affordable, said it must be those pills, threw me some coupons and pushed me out the door. I stopped at 300 bucks a month since my pressure was under control because of weight loss.

The healthcare system was broken before Oblunder got hold of it and it's even more broken now. I don't see it as sustainable on the cost side. Is it the best? Probably, and it will soon be the best that only the rich can afford.

I could have easily checked, inconsistent, worse, and we are doomed in @Slippy 's poll. Don't grow old and don't get sick in America.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

I voted Better, since I have had a surgical repair of an ankle, that I stupidly broke; and if it was not for an outstanding surgeon, I would be a gimp. Plus, I take Lantus with Novolog insulin; and let me tell you friends, those are better products than the old stuff. 
I have puked from taking cheap, crappy insulin; and metformin was a dud for me, my stomach was a constant mess from using it. So, I say Better, and I use the VA, which has gotten a lot of incoming fire and ignominy. Some of it was deserved, but not all of it was, and the criticism got out of hand; yet the VA is a pretty good place to get your doctoring done.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

It's better if you can afford it, but the government is going to keep that from happening for the average citizen.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

The stupid goof ball running for governor in California wants to give all illegal aliens in the state free health care. I’m considering burning my passport and birth certificate, changing my name to Julio, and movin. :tango_face_wink:


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

Chiefster23 said:


> The stupid goof ball running for governor in California wants to give all illegal aliens in the state free health care. I'm considering burning my passport and birth certificate, changing my name to Julio, and movin. :tango_face_wink:


Be sure and post video.

(Burning one's passport is sort of a cheap, theatrical stunt. It's a desperate grab for attention, like slashing across your wrists. If you want to renounce your citizenship, do it on camera and post it on youtube. Use your full name and address. Then it'll mean something.)

P.S. Although now that I think about it, holding your burning passport in one hand while you renounce your citizenship would be a nice touch. Carry on.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Jammer Six said:


> Be sure and post video.
> 
> (Burning one's passport is sort of a cheap, theatrical stunt. It's a desperate grab for attention, like slashing across your wrists, wearing AntiFa hoods and destroying property, offering freebies to citizens of other countries and yelling like a broken record to impeach the President.)


I added a couple other theatrical stunts for funzees.

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## AvTur (Jun 23, 2018)

I've lived under both the American system and also the British NHS. I personally prefer the NHS because it is free at point of use and despite the supposed horror stories of it failing, will give the care you need when you need it. 

I appreciate many here will strongly disagree with my opinion for a variety of reasons, however having lived under both and seen friends and family with the same sort of illnesses and injuries be dealt with under both systems, the NHS wins in my eyes.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

AvTur said:


> I've lived under both the American system and also the British NHS. I personally prefer the NHS because it is free at point of use and despite the supposed horror stories of it failing, will give the care you need when you need it.
> 
> I appreciate many here will strongly disagree with my opinion for a variety of reasons, however having lived under both and seen friends and family with the same sort of illnesses and injuries be dealt with under both systems, the NHS wins in my eyes.


Interesting and insightful post AvTur

Do you think the Brit system could work in the US?


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## AvTur (Jun 23, 2018)

Slippy said:


> Interesting and insightful post AvTur
> 
> Do you think the Brit system could work in the US?


I would love to say yes, however the private healthcare industry is too large to swap with an NHS style system. Too much money is involved and I suspect certain people and interest groups would make sure it fails so they can continue to take in the profits at the expense of the American people.

Interestingly, the American colleagues of mine who were the most against NHS-style social healthcare would have benefited the most from it. Both have several pre-existing conditions that have made it difficult to get adequate cover that is affordable.

I also had another colleague who was on prescription medication for a mental health issue. He went to pick it up one day and found it was removed from the list of approved meds and was no longer subsidised. Grim.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

AvTur said:


> I've lived under both the American system and also the British NHS. I personally prefer the NHS because it is free at point of use and despite the supposed horror stories of it failing, will give the care you need when you need it.
> 
> I appreciate many here will strongly disagree with my opinion for a variety of reasons, however having lived under both and seen friends and family with the same sort of illnesses and injuries be dealt with under both systems, the NHS wins in my eyes.


Any system can be made to work (or at least limp) if you throw enough CASH at it. What's your tax rate compared to, say, a Yank who makes the equivalent of $70,000 a year? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you guys give up like half your paycheck at the get-go? Worse? I'd like to compare that tax difference to the relatively low monthly cost for the Yank's health insurance. One of your own countrymen, Christopher Hitchens, always referred to your system as such: "The yellow fangs and shrunken gums of the British health care system". So while I, AS a Yank, cannot have the experience to form an opinion, there ARE other Brits who find the health care lacking.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

AvTur said:


> I've lived under both the American system and also the British NHS. I personally prefer the NHS because it is free at point of use and despite the supposed horror stories of it failing, will give the care you need when you need it.
> 
> I appreciate many here will strongly disagree with my opinion for a variety of reasons, however having lived under both and seen friends and family with the same sort of illnesses and injuries be dealt with under both systems, the NHS wins in my eyes.


Follow the money and have your answer. Who would loose the most money/power, government = politicians = lawyers. No law / bill is passed until the lawyers put their approval signature on it, which means how much can they make, and has nothing to do with helping someone getting treatment or getting healthy!


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

The problem with all health care is there is no real care, or management.
Instead of saying what Mom said years ago, eat your fruits and veggies, and get outside and play, Doctors Rx drugs. 
We eat unhealthy food, dont play or exercise. Thats our problem.. Doctors, Nurses, fancy machines, AMA, none of it does any good if you dont reat your body like a temple, or to some, as well as they treat their cars.
I have not had any real experience with foreign country health care, but Japanese like theres, romanians said they still needed to bribe doctors to get shit done.
USA, best I have used..


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

You need a different doctor.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

If Americans want good healthcare they need to get government out of healthcare, then the working can could afford it.


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

ekim said:


> If Americans want good healthcare they need to get government out of healthcare, then the working an could afford it.


And it would be every bit as good as it was in 1940.

No. You can't afford open heart surgery.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Jammer Six said:


> And it would be every bit as good as it was in 1940.
> 
> No. You can't afford open heart surgery.


So the government has kept healthcare cost down? Only for those that don't work, on a government program, or are illegals in the US. If your are a working man the government says pay for it yourself and for those who don't / won't work.


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

I tried three times to parse that, then I decided to inspect my collection of dried belly-button lint.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

AvTur said:


> I've lived under both the American system and also the British NHS. I personally prefer the NHS because it is free at point of use and despite the supposed horror stories of it failing, will give the care you need when you need it.
> 
> I appreciate many here will strongly disagree with my opinion for a variety of reasons, however having lived under both and seen friends and family with the same sort of illnesses and injuries be dealt with under both systems, the NHS wins in my eyes.


Until you have hoards of immigrants overwhelming the healthcare system but not paying into it. Then it all come tumbling down like a house of cards.


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## AvTur (Jun 23, 2018)

StratMaster said:


> Any system can be made to work (or at least limp) if you throw enough CASH at it. What's your tax rate compared to, say, a Yank who makes the equivalent of $70,000 a year? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you guys give up like half your paycheck at the get-go? Worse? I'd like to compare that tax difference to the relatively low monthly cost for the Yank's health insurance.


Income tax is as follows:

Personal Allowance: Up to £11,850 is 0%
Basic rate: £11,851 to £46,350 is 20%
Higher rate: £46,351 to £150,000 is 40%
Additional rate: over £150,000 is 45%

So you only pay more once your earnings reach that particular band.

As the $70k example, you'd only pay the 40% on the last $10k, nothing on the first $15k.



> One of your own countrymen, Christopher Hitchens, always referred to your system as such: "The yellow fangs and shrunken gums of the British health care system". So while I, AS a Yank, cannot have the experience to form an opinion, there ARE other Brits who find the health care lacking.


The NHS is far from perfect. It has a bloated management structure and yes, there can be waiting times for routine operations. However I know that regardless of my circumstances, I can end up in hospital and be given a decent level of care, regardless of illness or accident. All the while I won't worrying about how I am going to pay the bill or if my insurance will cover reason x.



Annie said:


> Until you have hoards of immigrants overwhelming the healthcare system but not paying into it. Then it all come tumbling down like a house of cards.


It's certainly straining the system. The bigger problem are our own native underclass. Far too many scrounging White British who have no ethic or pride in themselves. They pay nothing in and take all they can.

Social services can be good as long as they aren't abused.


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