# This one makes no sense.



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...es-baltimore-police-custody-article-1.2190933

If this article is fairly accurate as may be some of the videos, how did the prisoner in the back of the transport van suffer the injury to his spine.

If baltimore's van was like most I've seen, the prisoner is set on a bench and perhaps schackled to an eyebolt in the floor and the driver drives out side the cage.

For you EMT types is it possible that he had a violent - Grand Mal Type - seizure?


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Obviously like everyone else I can only guess what happened. Based on stories told 
me during my early days as a paramedic, frequently suspects would be subjected to 
numerous, very fast stops so that they would be hurled against grate separating the 
cab from the prisoner area.
Violent Grand Mal seizure??? While possible, the M.E. should be able to find evidence 
of that fairly easily and the police could have/should have mentioned something a lot 
earlier. Kind of iffy but...


----------



## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Look its Obamas other Son


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm still waiting to find out why he was "detained" and of course why the hell he ran. Sure make you look guilty. And with all the cops shooting innocent people in the back (that's sarcasm) why would he run and give them reason.


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Don't have an answer para. but the article did say that he proned out and was taken into custody without incident. And from the picture in the article just after he's cuffed, it looks like he's having no issues with his neck. If the story is that the spinal column/cord was 80% cut, that's one hell of a blow or


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

We shall wait for more info. For now I can say this: if you run from the police, expect a whippin... that's just how it is. I know it, you know it, should be common sense. Best thing you can do is be polite no matter how rude the officer may be. And if placed under arrest then shut your mouth and get legal counsel.

Run and you might get more than you bargain for.


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> We shall wait for more info. For now I can say this: if you run from the police, expect a whippin... that's just how it is. I know it, you know it, should be common sense. Best thing you can do is be polite no matter how rude the officer may be. And if placed under arrest then shut your mouth and get legal counsel.
> 
> Run and you might get more than you bargain for.


You might wish to reconsider what you are saying. You are justifying the Walter Scott back shooting. I don't think that's where you want to go. Any cop who beats a handcuffed prisoner belongs in jail, regardless of whether the suspect ran earlier or not. The fact that it happens is why folks like me want to put a body camera on every single cop.

Having said that I don't know what happened in this case, but the spine of a young healthy man, who was running moments before, does not get severed easily. I wish there was film of every moment of this incident. This incident needs a thorough homicide investigation by an independent party.


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Actually diver if you are so worried about what happens everytime you interact with the cops, why not by a extended hour pocket tape recorder and tape yourself 24/7. That way you'd have your record - one that only you could doctor or erase - of what transpired. Shoot they're only 39.95 or so http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Voice-Recorders-Audio-Video/b?ie=UTF8&node=227758

And while a death investigation is needed, it's not a homicide until the ME determines the cause of death.


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

More facts are needed. He did run, and if you run your asking for trouble. He was caught, arrested and dragged, moaning and yelling, it appears, to the wagon. That in itself does not appear excessive to me, his drama aside. I don't know how he was secured in the van, I don't know what happened in the van to jail, and I don't know what happened before he was caught and put in the van. We shall see what facts come out, so I will reserve judgement.


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

I saw this story also. Something sure smells fishy, but like Prepared One I will reserve judgment also.


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

One of the things that hasn't been in anything I have read is why they were after him. Running down the street is just exercise. That little data point is critical to understanding this case. Was there an actual cause to detain him?

Sarge: I already have such a device and am seriously considering an upgrade to a bodycam. I've also considered dashcams, but with multiple cars and relatively modest amounts of driving I haven't done that yet. As this technology gets cheaper, I will.


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Diver said:


> You might wish to reconsider what you are saying. You are justifying the Walter Scott back shooting. I don't think that's where you want to go. Any cop who beats a handcuffed prisoner belongs in jail, regardless of whether the suspect ran earlier or not. The fact that it happens is why folks like me want to put a body camera on every single cop.
> 
> Having said that I don't know what happened in this case, but the spine of a young healthy man, who was running moments before, does not get severed easily. I wish there was film of every moment of this incident. This incident needs a thorough homicide investigation by an independent party.


Well it might have read that way but I am in no way justifying any of that. My point is that generally speaking most cops are going to treat you how you treat them. That's my experience from the southern US. It may be different up there in your neck of the woods. The guy that got shot in the back was definitely murder. But I would bet you a weeks pay that if he had not run and stayed in his car like you're supposed to, he would still be alive.


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Here is a good video of what I'm talking about. Fair warning it has bad language in it so NSFW.


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> Well it might have read that way but I am in no way justifying any of that. My point is that generally speaking most cops are going to treat you how you treat them. That's my experience from the southern US. It may be different up there in your neck of the woods. The guy that got shot in the back was definitely murder. But I would bet you a weeks pay that if he had not run and stayed in his car like you're supposed to, he would still be alive.


We've also got the case of 10 deputies beating up a guy who ran, but had also been caught, surrendered without violence, handcuffed, and then beaten. Any reason not to charge every one of the deputies who hit or kicked that guy with assault?

With this case in Baltimore, I still haven't seen anything that states why the cops chased him. Do we have a case here where cops see a guy running, decide to chase him, and when he surrenders they sever his spine? If that is what happened, we get a case even dumber than Akai Gurley.


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

In this morning's headlines, San Bernardino County is settling civil claims by Francis Pusok (aka horse thief) for the beating by ten deputies for $650G.

Criminal investigations, civil rights investigations, etc. Are ongoing.


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Back in the day horse rustling would get you a short rope and a tall tree.


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> Back in the day horse rustling would get you a short rope and a tall tree.


Well, today a gang of thug LEOS beating a surrendered and cuffed suspect costs $650G.

What should now happen is those deputies need to face assault charges.


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Instead of jumping in and casting judgement, how's about letting the folks in san bernadino county handle their own messes and the rest of you handle your own problems


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

changed my mind on what I wanted to write.


----------



## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

He was, reportedly, running from the police before the arrest.
It is safe to assume, therefore, that he did not have a major back problem.
Again, reportedly, after the arrest, he has a major spinal injury.
Hmmmm.
Excessive force??


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Instead of jumping in and casting judgement, how's about letting the folks in san bernadino county handle their own messes and the rest of you handle your own problems


You opened the thread.  Looks like San Bernardino is doing exactly that. I think the rapid settlement on the civil damages speaks well of the county.


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Tango. Hard to say. there does not appear to be a neck injury as they lift him off the ground.

But just before I left the office there still hadn't been a finding from the ME's office.


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

No external injuries found by the M.E.

how does one sever the spine without external damage of any kind?


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

PaulS said:


> No external injuries found by the M.E.
> 
> how does one sever the spine without external damage of any kind?


There are a mountain of questions about this one, started with why was he pursued?


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

PaulS said:


> No external injuries found by the M.E.
> 
> how does one sever the spine without external damage of any kind?


Paul

So far the only folks that have commented on the medical findings are the dead guys family.

I've not seen anything from the Doctors that treated him and as of this morning the ME has still not issued it's findings.

As I said when I opened this post, it is very disturbing and doesn't make any sense.

Also the second set of video's where they've stopped the van to schackle his legs seems to indicate that the van's prisoner box was indeed isolated from the transport officer and that the dead guy was alone in the back of the van.

One of the folks at my office was quoting a source that he's seen where he said that several vertebrae had been broken and the victims wind pipe/laranx had been crushed. I couldn't find that anywhere I looked.

It is very disturbing to say the least.

Would be curious to know what the ER's initial report says or even the medic unit that transported him to the hospital.

Something is definitely not right, but as to what it is, at this point I don't have a clue.


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

I heard some hearsay that the guy was thrashing around in the wagon so bad they had to pull over and shackle him. Maybe he busted his own neck in the process.


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Diver said:


> There are a mountain of questions about this one, started with why was he pursued?


Diver I know you won't like this, but part of this came from the FOP spokesman, supposedly the suspect was in a high crime area and fled - ran away not walk away - at the sight of the two bike officers.

The following is from a SCOTUS decision http://www.streetlaw.org/document/91

Do I agree with the decision, depends. See I used to work in very small towns (4000 residents or less) and I had a pretty good idea of just who was who. Hootie bought and sold drugs - street information. Now baltimore is not a small town. individual officers can't know much about an individual they interact with.


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Diver I know you won't like this, but part of this came from the FOP spokesman, supposedly the suspect was in a high crime area and fled - ran away not walk away - at the sight of the two bike officers.
> 
> The following is from a SCOTUS decision http://www.streetlaw.org/document/91
> 
> Do I agree with the decision, depends. See I used to work in very small towns (4000 residents or less) and I had a pretty good idea of just who was who. Hootie bought and sold drugs - street information. Now baltimore is not a small town. individual officers can't know much about an individual they interact with.


I can't see the attachment, but does this mean if he walked away instead of running away, they would have had no basis to pursue or detain him?


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

from the baltimore sun: *Police have said that a preliminary report on Gray's autopsy showed he had no injuries except to his spinal cord. No evidence of kicks, punches or other beatings. No evidence of broken limbs.*

And no indication as to what portion of the spinal cord. But no crushed voice box as alluded to by the parents attorney.


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Diver said:


> I can't see the attachment, but does this mean if he walked away instead of running away, they would have had no basis to pursue or detain him?


Sorry I didn't see your previous post. Walking away is not an act of fleeing. At least that's how we were taught in both the police and MP schools


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Another stupid thread about this?
Must boycott - have life


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Sorry I didn't see your previous post. Walking away is not an act of fleeing. At least that's how we were taught in both the police and MP schools


Good to know. Thank you.


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

"Freddie Gray had a pre-existing spinal and neck injury [from a car accident] and had severe damage and scar tissue from an accident that Allstate insurance was paying via a large structured settlement.

Freddie had several unsuccessful spinal fusion surgeries, and* his most recent spinal/cervical operation was a week and a half before he was arrested.* Freddie should have been at home in bed resting and recovering from this recent major operation.

If you look on Howard County Civil Court records you will find a case whereby Freddie Gray Jr. was trying to cash in his monthly structured Allstate settlement into a lump sum payout through Peachtree funding"

Did Freddie Gray Have Spinal Surgery (From Car Accident) A Week Before His Arrest?? | The Last Refuge

Interesting to say the least. Maybe the way the police got him wasnt so rough as to sever a normal persons spine.


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Ha ha - poor thugee lobbyists


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

If this is true it is all the more reason for the cops to follow standard departmental procedures.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

As more and more information comes to light, I am confident that the esteemed young Mr Frederick Gray will be shown to be less than esteemed. Evidence may also surface that some idiot up the chain of command in the Baltimore PD or Baltimore Mayoral office set some mentally ill libtard policy that resulted in whatever poor decision was made. 

Advice to the youngsters; When arrested, do not fight, spit, urinate, deficate, spermicate, bite, kick, punch or otherwise attempt to harm the arresting officer (s). Statistics prove that when you act in a civil manner, you get treated...civily.


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Slippy said:


> Advice to the youngsters; When arrested, do not fight, spit, urinate, deficate, spermicate, bite, kick, punch or otherwise attempt to harm the arresting officer (s). Statistics prove that when you act in a civil manner, you get treated...civily.


Now you tell us.... I did all of those things at the same time last time I got pulled over. It wasn't appreciated by the cop and it made a big ol mess.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...es-baltimore-police-custody-article-1.2190933
> 
> If this article is fairly accurate as may be some of the videos, how did the prisoner in the back of the transport van suffer the injury to his spine.
> 
> ...


Well I flunked out of snot wiping 101 so did not get the EMP certs..but I aint never seen anybody get a severed spine in the back of a cop car. I have a theory which seem to have been making the rounds early he bumped into a bike cop. They teach them guys to rare up the wheel an bump folks in a rude manner. Could the bike cop have been the culprit? Sure the poor old patrol guys are fully innocent most likely.


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> "Freddie Gray had a pre-existing spinal and neck injury [from a car accident] and had severe damage and scar tissue from an accident that Allstate insurance was paying via a large structured settlement.
> 
> Freddie had several unsuccessful spinal fusion surgeries, and* his most recent spinal/cervical operation was a week and a half before he was arrested.* Freddie should have been at home in bed resting and recovering from this recent major operation.
> 
> ...


Is this site reliable? I really don't want to think that cops are that bad even tho we've already seen evidence in video clips. But I can sometimes understand how tempers will take a normal good hearted man and turn him into a monster.


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

paraquack said:


> Is this site reliable? I really don't want to think that cops are that bad even tho we've already seen evidence in video clips. But I can sometimes understand how tempers will take a normal good hearted man and turn him into a monster.


I have no idea. A former member of this site (MHans) who is currently on the front lines in Baltimore as a LEO mentioned it on another site. A quick search led me to several sites like the one I posted. The truth will come out one way or another. Just thought it was interesting. Especially if it turns out to be true.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Where is our gister? Some of us old blind guys cant do a lot of reading. Thanks.


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

This is unsubstantiated: Just heard short interview on Fox Hannity with sheriff of county with Baltimore. Sheriff "heard" that a prisoner in the van with Gray, says Gray was throwing himself around, most likely trying to injure himself. This would lend credence to the 3 stops to shackle him. If Gray had actually had the back/neck surgery, dang is he stupid.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Ok...that makes sense. Prob on PCP. The folks in da hood go nuts on that stuff. Still swear the Gentle Giant had the same ailment..but he been autopsied so much they surely coulda found it by now. Just guessing on some of this stuff. Thanks.


----------

