# 45aCP or 9mm



## budgetprepp-n

When you guys are talking about pistols I don't chime in much. Unless it's about a 1911. 
The 1911 is the only pistol I have really fired. I've only been shooting pistols for a
few years. My first one was a Girsan 45. No match gun but it did the job and went
bang. I liked shooting it (a lot). So for next pistol I bought was a high quality 
sweetheart of of a gun in the APC world. So now I have a few 45s. I recently purchased a 9mm 1911.
Boy is it nice, Very smooth very quick and easy to control. I here a lot about the 45
and it's knock down power and all that stuff. But with the types ammo that are available in
today's market I think a 9mm just might work as a protection gun for me 
And you can feel the weight difference in 100 45s and 100 9mm rounds. 


A rant,,,,,, I'm taking to a gun shop on the phone and he keeps calling a magazine a clip.

For heavens sake it's a MAGAZINE! I might be 
a little bit of a newbie but even I know that much.
Would that bother you? Guys like that just pull my pin.


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## SDF880

Not knocking 9MM in any way Heck I carry it some but what is the old saying 9MM may or may not
expand but a 45 won't shrink!


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## Boss Dog

Oh Boy! A caliber war!

A 9mm may expand but, a 45 doesn't shrink! 
sorry couldn't resist.


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## rice paddy daddy

Handguns are relatively low powered fire arms.
Unless you can achieve a hit that shuts down the central nervous system, you have to cause enough fluid loss to put the person into shock.
Both the 9 and the 45 will have to achieve a number of hits to put a person down. Agreed, you might make a less determined individual run away.

A number of years ago, in Jacksonville, Florida a cop had a shootout with a thug armed with a Glock 45 caliber. The cop had a 40 caliber. 
They ended up actually rolling on the ground, contact distance, shooting each other multiple times. I forget how many hits the cop took, 7 or 8.
In the end, perp was dead, cop was out of work for a few months before returning to duty.

Personally, I prefer the 357 magnum, 125 grain JHP full house load. A few good hits in the torso will let quite a bit of body fluid out, and quickly.


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## mobius999

The good news is someone else has already done all the research for you. The FBI recently returned to 9mm, stating that modern 9mm is the best pistol round. If you are not aware, the FBI has done some huge studies in the past as they switched from .38 to 9mm. 10mm was actually developed specifically for the FBI. Then they briefly chose .40S&W, another round specifically designed for law enforcement, not just the FBI.

In 2015 after a new study the FBI has now once again adopted the 9mm. Data showed "the 9mm round penetrates far enough, allows for shooters to carry more rounds, and is more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds like the .45 ACP or .40 Smith & Wesson."

Also consider the Army has gone 9mm over .45ACP.


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## Camel923

Both can do the job. The key is shot placement. A hit with. Nine beats a miss with a 45. I believe what many cops have told me which is you want the biggest piece of lead you can place on target headed down range. I took a night pistol class and it was all cops. I had a Glock 17 and every one else had a 40 or 45. I got razzed that my gun was set on stun. That was how they viewed a 9 mm. @rice paddy daddy is correct that a 357 mag is a great revolver round and belongs in the conversation . The military and FBI went 9mm for many reasons but most effective one shot stopping power was not THE criteria that decision was made upon.


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## Smitty901

9mm has put a lot of Bg's in the ground. I do not feel underarmmed with a 9mm . Like many things 9mm has come a long ways. 1911 frame is great but for some duty it is just to bulky.
The 357 will kill what ever needs kill'n. Took a deer with one of mine at 75 yards it dropped quick. Could I make that shot again?


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## dwight55

Bought my first handgun, . . . WW2 leftover 1911, . . . black market, . . . streets of Saigon.

Fell in love with it. 

I've had other hand guns that I've carried: Browning .32 ACP, Colt Python, Ruger P85 (brick), Springfield XD .45, Springfield Micro .45, Browning Buck Mark, Rock Island full size, . . . and I probably forgot a few.

Today, . . . sitting here, . . . I have an ATI strapped in an IWB holster, . . . 8 + 1, . . . 8 more rounds in a spare mag. 

That 46 or so ounces of lead, rubber, brass, and steel, . . . feels good. Felt good back in 1966 when I got my first one, . . . hasn't changed.

In the sandbox, I have read a number of "complaints" that the 9 did not do the job, . . . and that specop folks wanted, were buying, and were carrying .45's in place of the 9's. I was not there so I cannot comment other than what I've read, . . . but there were several articles out on it in the last few years.

Bottom line though, . . . is not what you have, . . . it is what YOU can shoot. One hit with a 9 is better than a whole magazine of close misses with a .45. Personally, I shoot my commander size 1911 better than any other center fire handgun in my stable, . . . so that is what I carry.

YMMV

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Back Pack Hack

Not only is getting shots on target important, but getting the _first shot on target_ the most important factor.

Keep in mind that bigger isn't necessarily better. Yeah, punching a hole in a crack-fiend big enough to drive a bus through is satisfying, keep in mind you're not at the range and your backstop can include innocent bystanders.


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## RedLion

"Concealed Carry" mag just had a brief article on this issue or at least comparing carrying a 1911 .45acp to a typical full size 9mm semiauto. The outcome was in favor of the full size 9mm semiauto. I also think that a full size 9mm is a better choice for most. Easier to shoot and be accurate with the 9mm for most, twice the ammo capacity, cheaper ammo prices and the fact that 9mm self defense ammo is about on par with .40 cal now. Much, much improved 9mm ammo from yester year.
With that said shoot what you want. I have one .45 ACP, as Springfield Tactical long slide, but own three 9mm handguns.


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## Chipper

Geez guys we are talking about a 10th of an inch in diameter. I know for some guys it's a issue.

Nobody will be able to tell which one they got shot with. If you have doubts we could always do a test if you want to prove your point. 

Myself velocity is king so I use 9mm and 10mm.


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## RedLion

Chipper said:


> Geez guys we are talking about a 10th of an inch in diameter. I know for some guys it's a issue.
> 
> Nobody will be able to tell which one they got shot with. If you have doubts we could always do a test if you want to prove your point.
> 
> Myself velocity is king so I use 9mm and 10mm.


Well then you should be giving up those two slow pokes for a 7.62x25 M57......


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## patrioteer

Caliber is always about preference, recoil sensitivity, ammo availability, ammo legality, etc. Cops in Europe carried .32acp pistols for years without issue and in America for many many years more people died from .22lr & .25acp handgun bullets than anything else. After the Miami shooting the FBI went nuts convinced the .38spl was insufficient. It took a few decades and a lot of research and development for them to realize it was not the caliber but the bullet itself, the powder, and so one. Once they maximized the potential of the 9mm the difference between it and the already maxed out .40 &.45 was negligible. And if that is the case then capacity becomes a very important factor. Especially since all handgun round are ineffective at causing instant traumatic internal damage and blood loss. So pick a gun you like, in a caliber you like, and practice practice practice. A skilled man with a .380 has a much better chance of winning they day than an unskilled man with a .357sig. After that it's all luck anyway.

And to the OP, I have only shot a 9mm 1911 once at the range. I could not believe how little recoil and muzzle flip it had. I think it was 10+1 capacity which isn't too bad either. 

As far as the magazine versus clip thing goes, just let it go and learn to ignore it. I know a banana clip does not actually contain a banana, but I still know exactly what they are talking about. Which really makes the terms all interchangeable. The same way the correct term is carbonated soda, but if you call it soda, pop, fizz, soft drink, or coke we all know what you mean. Life is too short to get caught up in the semantics of it all.


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## Smitty901

This is what happen when the Army went to the 9mm. They pissed some(lot of) people off. Accuracy of rounds fired went way up. The weapon had a better trigger and fired smooth. The 9mm is a 15 round. It was easier to carry for most. Contrary to the BS you hear it was very reliable. We had no fails on any deployments. keep in mine the Infantry does no rely on handguns . Some low threat security, back up for Machine gunners. Issue weapon for some officers and for 1SG. However they can draw a rifle if desired.
Not long after full issue the hate went away and the 9mm was excepted for the most part.
Smaller easier to carry weapons like the M4, 249 Saw, reduced the need for had guns even more .
I own 45 have on that is a double stack 14 round beast. The 45 round does major damage when it hit some one . Focus on what the round does when it hit more than caliber. The 9mm did not handy cap soldiers. Some still to this day want the 45 and or the fanciest hand gun on the market . That will always be the case . US military has flat out reject the Glock a few times good thing some of them have their head out of their buts.
CC open carry the 9mm will serve the needs .


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## sideKahr

".45 ACP or 9mm?"

.45 ACP *AND* 9mm. There. Fixed it for ya.


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## Prepared One

Don't get me wrong, I am from Texas and I think everything bigger is better. I have a few 45's and love to shoot them but they are mostly nightstand or drawer guns. When it comes to carrying, I carry concealed in 9MM. Easier to conceal, more rounds, and light wight. My carry weapon, as of now, is the 9mm shield with extended magazine that gives me 8+1. I am looking strongly at the sig P365 at 10+1. Either or, my conceal ammunition is HST 9mm, 124gr. If I do my job the BG will go down.


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## RubberDuck

Anything is better than throwing a stick but my EDC is 45 
After watching this video of the firefighter and his neighbor I'm sure we have all seen.




I will not carry a 9mm this guy was hit 4 times in the chest and was able to return fire get up and walk to house to call 911.
This absolutely would not have happened with a 45


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## rice paddy daddy

mobius999 said:


> Also consider the Army has gone 9mm over .45ACP.


The US military went to 9MM to be ammo compatible with the rest of NATO. The fact that females were being integrated into general service instead of being segregated in the WAC was a plus for switching to 9MM.

The US Marines returned to the 45 ACP a number of years ago, the US Army is in the process of doing the same.

It is customary for new members to introduce themselves in the Introduction section. Why don't you pop on over and tell us just a little about yourself.


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## RedLion

Smitty901 said:


> US military has flat out reject the Glock a few times good thing some of them have their head out of their buts.
> CC open carry the 9mm will serve the needs .


The Army not picking Glock was more a $ saving issue than anything. Also important to note that glocks are by far the most popular choice for law enforcement in the U.S. (not even close) and many other militaries. Why is this? Affordable, but always going to shoot and plenty accurate enough. It is fine if people do not like Glock, but simply denial not to recognize that it is a very good product.


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## Smitty901

RedLion said:


> The Army not picking Glock was more a $ saving issue than anything. Also important to note that glocks are by far the most popular choice for law enforcement in the U.S. (not even close) and many other militaries. Why is this? Affordable, but always going to shoot and plenty accurate enough. It is fine if people do not like Glock, but simply denial not to recognize that it is a very good product.


 No glock had no safety was number 1. Glock has had many failure you don't read about the like you do other brands. Glock went to LEO offer weapons below cost known they could use that as a marketing tool. Most LEO carry what they are told by depart.
Glock is a good weapon but far from the hype it has. Hype is your best market tool,


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## MisterMills357

Smitty901 said:


> 9mm has put a lot of Bg's in the ground. I do not feel underarmmed with a 9mm . Like many things 9mm has come a long ways. 1911 frame is great but for some duty it is just to bulky.
> *The 357 will kill what ever needs kill'n. Took a deer with one of mine at 75 yards it dropped quick. Could I make that shot again?*





RedLion said:


> *"Concealed Carry" mag just had a brief article on this issue or at least comparing carrying a 1911 .45acp to a typical full size 9mm semiauto. The outcome was in favor of the full size 9mm semiauto.* I also think that a full size 9mm is a better choice for most. Easier to shoot and be accurate with the 9mm for most, twice the ammo capacity, cheaper ammo prices and the fact that 9mm self defense ammo is about on par with .40 cal now. Much, much improved 9mm ammo from yester year.
> With that said shoot what you want. I have one .45 ACP, as Springfield Tactical long slide, but own three 9mm handguns.





Chipper said:


> Geez guys we are talking about a 10th of an inch in diameter. I know for some guys it's a issue.
> 
> Nobody will be able to tell which one they got shot with. If you have doubts we could always do a test if you want to prove your point.
> 
> *Myself velocity is king so I use 9mm and 10mm.*





RedLion said:


> *Well then you should be giving up those two slow pokes for a 7.62x25 M57....*..










[To any new guy, the Tokerev is not a good choice for a defense gun. Red Lion was being sarcastic and ironic.]



rice paddy daddy said:


> Handguns are relatively low powered fire arms.
> Unless you can achieve a hit that shuts down the central nervous system, you have to cause enough fluid loss to put the person into shock.
> Both the 9 and the 45 will have to achieve a number of hits to put a person down. Agreed, you might make a less determined individual run away.
> 
> A number of years ago, in Jacksonville, Florida a cop had a shootout with a thug armed with a Glock 45 caliber. The cop had a 40 caliber.
> They ended up actually rolling on the ground, contact distance, shooting each other multiple times. I forget how many hits the cop took, 7 or 8.
> In the end, perp was dead, cop was out of work for a few months before returning to duty.
> 
> *Personally, I prefer the 357 magnum, 125 grain JHP full house load. A few good hits in the torso will let quite a bit of body fluid out, and quickly*.


*I am a fan of the 9mm and .45 and .357 and 10mm, so there, I just added to the confusion. IMHO, any of them loaded right, will drop a bad guy or dog.*:devil: *[To any new guy reading this, if you are confused, that is OK. You will figure out what you like, as time goes by.]

*


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## RedLion

Smitty901 said:


> No glock had no safety was number 1. Glock has had many failure you don't read about the like you do other brands. Glock went to LEO offer weapons below cost known they could use that as a marketing tool. Most LEO carry what they are told by depart.
> Glock is a good weapon but far from the hype it has. Hype is your best market tool,


While having a safety was a factor, money is always the #1 factor as long as overall function is acceptable. Facts are the glock is overwhelmingly used by law enforcement in the U.S. Much more than others.


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## patrioteer

Glock does make a good product but they do not make a superior product. Glock had a unique one-size-fits-all product, a better marketing machine, and lower prices than the all metal competitors. I know because I was the one who accepted their offer to outfit my entire department with Glock 17's and holsters for 1/2 the price we were paying for S&W 5904's. But that was the past and now days more and more departments are moving away from Glock. Other companies have improved on the striker fired polymer design first introduced by H&K and then they copied the Glock business model. Now police holsters are filling up with discounted guns like the M&P, P320, VP9, PX4, APX, and others. Glock loves to claim 65% of the market share but it's actually less than that and it's dropping every year. Especially now as departments realize the one-size-fits-all system does not improve qualification scores or real world hit/miss ratios. Many large agencies are allowing the officer to choose their sidearm, and when that happens Glock does not tend to be the dominate choice. But when the bean counters make the call and Glock offers them up for under cost, they always win out. Of course that was not something even Glock could afford to do at the military trials.

I have two good friends who work at Glock Inc, some of the stories they tell about the business practices going on there is really quite crazy. Including how often they offer up cash incentives. Wink wink.


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## RedLion

MisterMills357 said:


> View attachment 79609
> 
> [To any new guy, the Tokerev is not a good choice for a defense gun. Red Lion was being sarcastic and ironic.]
> 
> 
> *I am a fan of the 9mm and .45 and .357 and 10mm, so there, I just added to the confusion. IMHO, any of them loaded right, will drop a bad guy or dog.*:devil: *[To any new guy reading this, if you are confused, that is OK. You will figure out what you like, as time goes by.]
> 
> *


I was not being sarcastic as the 7.62x25 in HP is a fairly decent self defense round, but an excellent self defense if shooting through barriers and light body armor.
For instance.....PPU 7.62x25 HP ammo....



> This ammunition proved extremely consistent, with measured velocity always in the 1403-1408fps, even in different weather. It's behavior in gelatin has been quite consistent as well, with 16″ of straight line penetration and reliable expansion to .45 caliber. For comparison, 45ACP Winchester Ranger SXT also penetrates 16″, though expanding to .90 caliber in the meantime. So we can estimate wound channel of 7.62×25 to be similar to that of 45ACP ball, but with penetration limited to that of hollow point bullets. The smaller, faster bullet produces greater temporary stretch cavity due to the higher impact velocity.


http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/04/06/7-62x25-self-defense/


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## rice paddy daddy

The same round fired by the Tokarev pistol was also fired in the Russian PPSH-41 submachine gun which did a fine job of killing Nazi's.

And, for what its worth, the .380 ACP is also a 9MM.


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## Gunn

CDEC (Combat Development Experimentation Command) highly recommended against the 9mm. Their tests showed that Shot to kill ratio went to the 45 ACP. They felt that the NATO compliance was not beneficial to US troops. As for saying females had trouble shooting the 45 ACP, my wife's CC is 1911 officers model. 35% of the females I shoot with feel that the 45 ACP is the caliber they shoot best. BUT they do have a problem cocking it.


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## rice paddy daddy

Gunn said:


> CDEC (Combat Development Experimentation Command) highly recommended against the 9mm. Their tests showed that Shot to kill ratio went to the 45 ACP. They felt that the NATO compliance was not beneficial to US troops. As for saying females had trouble shooting the 45 ACP, my wife's CC is 1911 officers model. 35% of the females I shoot with feel that the 45 ACP is the caliber they shoot best. BUT they do have a problem cocking it.


My wife was better with my Colt Government Model than me. But a number of years ago age and arthritis made it impossible for her to cock. (She's 72)


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## RubberDuck

rice paddy daddy said:


> The same round fired by the Tokarev pistol was also fired in the Russian PPSH-41 submachine gun which did a fine job of killing Nazi's.
> 
> And, for what its worth, the .380 ACP is also a 9MM.


The 380 is the 9mm projectile but shorter case and less powder making it slightly better than throwing a rock


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## rice paddy daddy

RubberDuck said:


> The 380 is the 9mm projectile but shorter case and less powder making it slightly better than throwing a rock


90 grain projo at the same velocity of the 9MM Parabellum 115 grain projo. Not a huge difference.
To surely stop a determined attacker you need a rifle or shotgun. 
Hand guns are merely easy to conceal and carry.

Sometimes even mortars blowing off limbs won't do it.
CMOHS.org - Second Lieutenant BOBO, JOHN P., U.S. Marine Corps

While you are at that site, you won't have to look very far to find others that a full magazine of 9MM wouldn't even slow down.
Such as Mower, Charles. Read his citation.

To see what determination really is, consider Roy Benavidez
Benavidez :vs_shocked: The man is a legend in the US Army.
And who knows, maybe the guy you think your puny little 9X19 or 45ACP is going to stop is very determined as well.:vs_cool:

:vs_coffee::vs_coffee:


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## Denton

As @rice paddy daddy made clear, handguns are not the best tool for instantly stopping a determined assailant. The handgun is just the tool that can be easily carried. If you are better with a .45, great. If you are better with a 9 mm, great. The important thing is for you to accurately place multiples shots in the target. Don't expect one round to remove the danger. Do expect accurately placed rounds to make the difference.


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## RubberDuck

I drove a armored truck when I first got my cpl back 2001 and in the firearm training we had there was technique that made perfect sense and I practice it still today.
With any advancing attacker or any caliber first shots should be aimed at the pelvis area and raise to center mass from there.
This will end the advance instantly.


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## rice paddy daddy

I'm not trying to take issue with any one, don't get me wrong.
It's just that shooting a bad guy may not necessarily stop him, or even slow him down enough to keep him from killing you. 


Having a gun, any gun, is better than not having a gun at all. Just don't be shocked if one or two good hits don't magically end the fight.
Keep shooting until the threat stops.


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## rice paddy daddy

RubberDuck said:


> I drove a armored truck when I first got my cpl back 2001 and in the firearm training we had there was technique that made perfect sense and I practice it still today.
> With any advancing attacker or any caliber first shots should be aimed at the pelvis area and raise to center mass from there.
> This will end the advance instantly.


I took some classes from our local FOP trainers. They advised the same thing - aim for the pelvic girdle to slow momentum.


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## Smitty901

rice paddy daddy said:


> I'm not trying to take issue with any one, don't get me wrong.
> It's just that shooting a bad guy may not necessarily stop him, or even slow him down enough to keep him from killing you.
> 
> Having a gun, any gun, is better than not having a gun at all. Just don't be shocked if one or two good hits don't magically end the fight.
> Keep shooting until the threat stops.


 Friend of mine hit twice by Ak47 finished the job and is still around told show scars. He finished it with m4.


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## Slippy

Denton said:


> As @rice paddy daddy made clear, handguns are not the best tool for instantly stopping a determined assailant. The handgun is just the tool that can be easily carried. If you are better with a .45, great. If you are better with a 9 mm, great. The important thing is for you to accurately place multiples shots in the target. Don't expect one round to remove the danger. Do expect accurately placed rounds to make the difference.



View attachment 79737


View attachment 79745


One pretty good day at the range...


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## Camel923

If someone keeps coming after being hit solidly with a couple of rounds your have 1) a determined adversary, 2) a psycho, 3) someone on drugs. All are dangerous and require more rounds. Head shot if possible. Shot placement is the key as stated by many on this thread and other threads repeatedly.


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## rice paddy daddy

Smitty901 said:


> Friend of mine hit twice by Ak47 finished the job and is still around told show scars. He finished it with m4.


Friend of mine I met at a meeting was shot in the head by an AK47 and then bayonetted when he was in Nam. That is close combat.
He wears his CIB with pride.


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## RedLion

Related, but unrelated is the fact that only 10% of all combat related deaths in WWII were from small arms fire (According to data from Concealed Carry mag). Nearly 75% was from artillery, mortars, and bombings. Goes to show that successfully killing another person with a handgun, rifle or other small arms is not always easy or possible.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

I'm under no illusions that I will place a shot accurately in a "fight for life" situation. I shoot paper just fine, but that paper isn't shooting back at me.

Real combat isn't the same, and I have no doubt I would suck at an actual armed conflict... since most people who have a lot more training than me suck at it (look at hit ratios, they are surprisingly small even for highly trained people... let along random Joe's like me).

Me? I'd rather have 18 bullets with good stopping power than 8 bullets with slightly better stopping power. 

Your milage may vary.


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## Back Pack Hack

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> ..................Real combat isn't the same, and I have no doubt I would suck at an actual armed conflict... since most people who have a lot more training than me suck at it (look at hit ratios, they are surprisingly small even for highly trained people... let along random Joe's like me).............


But think about how much 'training' your average street thug is going to have. Many a few dozen rounds in the back yard of their cousin's place out in the country, and they think they're ready to pick a pimple off a flea's ass at 3,000 yards.


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## MisterMills357

RedLion said:


> I was not being sarcastic as the 7.62x25 in HP is a fairly decent self defense round, but an excellent self defense if shooting through barriers and light body armor.
> For instance.....PPU 7.62x25 HP ammo....
> Is 7.62x25 Appropriate for Self-Defense? - AllOutdoor.comAllOutdoor.com





rice paddy daddy said:


> The same round fired by the Tokarev pistol was also fired in the Russian PPSH-41 submachine gun which did a fine job of killing Nazi's.
> 
> And, for what its worth, the .380 ACP is also a 9MM.


OK, I spoke out of turn {AGAIN}, RedLion is a fan of the Tokarev, and so is RPD. It is a subjective thing, and me personally, I don't like it enough to get one. A Ruger P95 is smaller and more powerful, and easier to get ammo for.
I would take a Ruger Security 9 any day, over a Tokerev.:tango_face_smile:


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## rice paddy daddy

MisterMills357 said:


> OK, I spoke out of turn {AGAIN}, RedLion is a fan of the Tokarev, and so is RPD. It is a subjective thing, and me personally, I don't like it enough to get one. A Ruger P95 is smaller and more powerful, and easier to get ammo for.
> I would take a Ruger Security 9 any day, over a Tokerev.:tango_face_smile:


Nope, I don't have or want a Tokarev.
BUT, that is a hot round that it fires.

The only foreign military pistol I have is a Walther P-1, which is a post war P-38. The reason I say its military is because of the West German Army acceptance marks on it.
In fact, it is the only 9MM I own (except for the .380 Ruger).


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## RedLion

MisterMills357 said:


> OK, I spoke out of turn {AGAIN}, RedLion is a fan of the Tokarev, and so is RPD. It is a subjective thing, and me personally, I don't like it enough to get one. A Ruger P95 is smaller and more powerful, and easier to get ammo for.
> I would take a Ruger Security 9 any day, over a Tokerev.:tango_face_smile:


Actually I am a fan of my Serbian M57 Zavasta 7.62x25. You can still buy them new. Mine is an excellent grade original that I have been able to shoot well. It is a handgun that I carry in my get home bag. A gun that I would be OK using as a defensive weapon to get home. I carry 6 loaded mags and another 50 round box of ammo. I have not shot it at 100 yards yet, but I have seen a fair number of folks consistently hit steal with it at 100 yards. The M57 also has a 9 round mag versus 8 for the Tokarev.


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## StratMaster

RedLion said:


> Related, but unrelated is the fact that only 10% of all combat related deaths in WWII were from small arms fire (According to data from Concealed Carry mag). Nearly 75% was from artillery, mortars, and bombings. Goes to show that successfully killing another person with a handgun, rifle or other small arms is not always easy or possible.


Yep, my buddy still walks around with a bit of a limp to this day due to mortar shrapnel in 'Nam.


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## budgetprepp-n

RedLion said:


> Actually I am a fan of my Serbian M57 Zavasta 7.62x25. You can still buy them new. Mine is an excellent grade original that I have been able to shoot well. It is a handgun that I carry in my get home bag. A gun that I would be OK using as a defensive weapon to get home. I carry 6 loaded mags and another 50 round box of ammo. I have not shot it at 100 yards yet, but I have seen a fair number of folks consistently hit steal with it at 100 yards. The M57 also has a 9 round mag versus 8 for the Tokarev.


The Tokarev spits a bullet out at 1425 Feet Per. sec. You use a hollow point in a Tokarev and it hard to beat. 
And that old WWII surplus machine gun ammo is even faster.


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## Grinch2

For my personal carry gun I like the 10mm, Col. Jeff Cooper, Gaston Glock and Peter Pi and or Tim Sundles produced a trifecta I'm more than comfortable entrusting any situation to. However with my Glock 20's and my 29 I have trained religiously. I am proficient with my 10mm's. 

On the other hand some may not train extensively, just the world we live in, Darwinism possibly. My wife and I have had this talk on multiple occasions regarding caliber, shot placement and ammo. At 5'0 and around 100lbs she appears to be your typical easy victim, lets face it; despite self defense classes she's not going to win a high percentage of physical confrontations. The equalizer for her is a gun. 

At first she wanted a 45 ACP, she could handle the recoil and it's a 45- end of discussion right? Well no, not for her anyways, my FNX Tactical might be fun for her to plink away with in the field with lighter loaded target ammo, but snotty carry loads out of a much more compact 45? Not so much, so she worked her way down and landed on the 9mm, specifically a Glock 43 with a 26 in her vehicle. 

Then an idea popped into her head, what if someone rips my purse from my shoulder and runs off, now she has pretty much nothing, so she asked about a pocket pistol. Well after about six intensive hours of searching I found my solution to her situation. My little Beretta 950 Jetfire will often times get scoffed at when it's not being pointed in one's direction. Most loads for a 22LR are more powerful than the 25 ACP, but the fact remains she has 7+1 tiny little J.H.P's ready if the need arises. 

She asked me if the 25 ACP after she herself scoffed at the sight of that little gun which could fit in the palm of my hand, through the use of extremely sophisticated scientific method ( a frozen turkey far past it's expiration date ) we was able to understand that just like her despite being small they can pack a punch. 

Now all of the pleasantries aside, lets face it, even with a 25 ACP if an attacker gets hit in the hand(s) it's going to be incapacitating, let alone the neck or face. With such a small caliber this being an extreme example you want to focus on nerve sensitive areas that aren't deep. The 9mm obviously has a lot more snot than the 25 ACP, you're going to be able to disrupt a lot more soft tissue. Are you more likely to survive a 9mm to the guts vs a 45? Maybe, miracles happen, sometimes for the wrong side though and people survive some crazy stuff. The 9mm vs 45 debate is unending, at the end of the day though it's not " knock down power vs shot placement ". You can shoot a deer with a 340 Weatherby Magnum in the guts and track it for miles, or you can pop one in the head with a 22 and walk right up to it. It's finding which gun/caliber/load is your trifecta, because-it's better to hit with a 9mm than miss with a 45, but the 45 doesn't shrink- when you find your trifecta it is indeed magical. Everything is crucial in those split seconds you've spent your entire life training for. The object is to find what suits you, if you feel comfortable with a 22 Short go right a head, if you're set a 460 S&W if your gun well good for you. There's a fine line one must walk to find their ideal carry gun if they so choose to find one, if they're comfortable with packing a bulky bare bones low capacity gun loaded with FMJ's, well let them go. Darwinism sorts the crowd... 

"You have to hit them first, then you have to hit them hard and hit them fast, no matter the fight do what you must to win, do not fight fair, speed, power and where you hit them counts, only unfair fight is the one you lose"- Great Uncle Walt.


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## SGT E

Kentucky State Police moved to 357 Magnum in the early 70's because they kept having problems with people on PCP....It was the end of the problems.

I love my .45's and I have two loads....A light load of bullseye and a 180 grain wad cutter for plinking and a max load of Hodgdon CFE under a 160 grain Barnes Tac XP or equivalent weight Hollow point running 1150 FPS. Its faster than 3 or 4 of the 357 magnum slower loads and slightly heavier. I carry the hotter loads concealed carry and they shoot well in all my pistols.... After a shooting if you think you would have problems in court keep in mind you or I could have chosen a S&W 500 but didn't....Killing capability of what you carry is a moot point.I carry for dog and bear protection as well.

Back to the 9mm.... A 147 grain (MAX WEIGHT) 9mm hollow point whatever at max load cant reach the speed / weight or ft pounds of knock down power of my 160 grain Barnes in a .45 ACP....Go to the manuals and the reloading books.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5JLrBGRl2


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## patrioteer

On paper and in gel one can analyze velocity, foot lbs of energy, expansion dimensions, wound channels, penetration, and more. I know because at one time I was heavily invested in finding the best duty round possible and tested everything on the market six ways from Sunday. I spent hours with Fackler boxes, chronographs, ballistic gel, and even shooting animals from the disease research lab. Then I turned from ballistics, performance specs, and testing to the real world and discovered that all those number, estimates, and results goes right out the window. No matter how much you want your preferred caliber to be the best or most effective, luck is the number one factor in shooting results. Followed way down the road by practice, skill, and training. Which round you choose comes in somewhere near the end of the list, usually after availability, cost, and recoil sensitivity.


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## Tired_Yeti

mobius999 said:


> The good news is someone else has already done all the research for you. The FBI recently returned to 9mm, stating that modern 9mm is the best pistol round. If you are not aware, the FBI has done some huge studies in the past as they switched from .38 to 9mm. 10mm was actually developed specifically for the FBI. Then they briefly chose .40S&W, another round specifically designed for law enforcement, not just the FBI.
> 
> In 2015 after a new study the FBI has now once again adopted the 9mm. Data showed "the 9mm round penetrates far enough, allows for shooters to carry more rounds, and is more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds like the .45 ACP or .40 Smith & Wesson."
> 
> Also consider the Army has gone 9mm over .45ACP.


Also keep in mind, much of that is motivated by cost. As you mentioned, "more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds" (assuming you meant calibers). The US militaries adoption of the 9mm has a lot to do with ammo supply and the fact that it is the NATO caliber and we are a NATO nation.
Not saying 9mm isn't good. Just saying that the military doesn't always get or use the BEST gear. They have logistics and costs to factor. 
EDIT: for the record, I was issued the M9 and liked it, but it's a full size service pistol and a bit too large for my CCW tastes.

Personally, I do like the .45. In my perception, the argument that "with the new P++ ammo the 9mm is great..." is like saying, "if you work a lot of overtime, you can make good money". I want a good paycheck without needing all the overtime. Yeah, there are some hot 9mm rounds available, but that just further indicates it's an anemic caliber to begin with and it needs to be put on steroids to be worthy. At least, that's the way it comes across to me. Still, I won't argue that the 9mm feels better in my hand because of the smaller size. The nicest handgun I've ever fired was a SigSauer P-226.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smitty901

Tired_Yeti said:


> Also keep in mind, much of that is motivated by cost. As you mentioned, "more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds" (assuming you meant calibers). The US militaries adoption of the 9mm has a lot to do with ammo supply and the fact that it is the NATO caliber and we are a NATO nation.
> Not saying 9mm isn't good. Just saying that the military doesn't always get or use the BEST gear. They have logistics and costs to factor.
> EDIT: for the record, I was issued the M9 and liked it, but it's a full size service pistol and a bit too large for my CCW tastes.
> 
> Personally, I do like the .45. In my perception, the argument that "with the new P++ ammo the 9mm is great..." is like saying, "if you work a lot of overtime, you can make good money". I want a good paycheck without needing all the overtime. Yeah, there are some hot 9mm rounds available, but that just further indicates it's an anemic caliber to begin with and it needs to be put on steroids to be worthy. At least, that's the way it comes across to me. Still, I won't argue that the 9mm feels better in my hand because of the smaller size. The nicest handgun I've ever fired was a SigSauer P-226.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 US military has to consider many more things that just one Aspect of a weapon or the round. 9mm has sent many men to the grave.


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## rice paddy daddy

patrioteer said:


> ... luck is the number one factor in shooting results. Followed way down the road by practice, skill, and training...&#8230;..


THIS is what I always want to scream at the computer screen every time I read the term "shot placement", written as if this mantra is perfectly achievable. 
In a gun fight your adrenaline level will go from zero to sky high in one or two heart beats, your opponent will most likely be moving, and you damn sure better not be standing still if you don't want to get shot.
You will be LUCKY if you HIT your opponent.


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## Smitty901

rice paddy daddy said:


> THIS is what I always want to scream at the computer screen every time I read the term "shot placement", written as if this mantra is perfectly achievable.
> In a gun fight your adrenaline level will go from zero to sky high in one or two heart beats, your opponent will most likely be moving, and you damn sure better not be standing still if you don't want to get shot.
> You will be LUCKY if you HIT your opponent.


 Stand off range. With in reason the farther away you are the better you chances of hitting the mark. This again is why we say if you must use a hand gun you already screwed up and let them get to close.


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## ekim

I may not live to tell the story but I'll take my chances with my CC weapon. I could care less what some so called professional has trained to do. The stats don't seem to back them up in actual shooting situations. IMO, they train to much and have to much thought that goes into every shot they take. That badge and uniform won't stop a bullet or really stop the bad guy from killing you, they don't bother with yelling I'm a bad guy or worry about what may happen after he shoots. IMO, being mentally ready is as important as all the rest combined. Train the mind to be ready and live to fight another day.


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## bigwheel

mobius999 said:


> The good news is someone else has already done all the research for you. The FBI recently returned to 9mm, stating that modern 9mm is the best pistol round. If you are not aware, the FBI has done some huge studies in the past as they switched from .38 to 9mm. 10mm was actually developed specifically for the FBI. Then they briefly chose .40S&W, another round specifically designed for law enforcement, not just the FBI.
> 
> In 2015 after a new study the FBI has now once again adopted the 9mm. Data showed "the 9mm round penetrates far enough, allows for shooters to carry more rounds, and is more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds like the .45 ACP or .40 Smith & Wesson."
> 
> Also consider the Army has gone 9mm over .45ACP.


I dont trust anything the FBI says. They may have decided to go to 9 mm to placate liberal demands for political correctness cause bigger guns kill bad guys too dead. At any rate Texas has jumped on the band wagon to supply 9 mm to their troopers to replace .357 Sigs which they been carrying.


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## RedLion

95% of encounters/shootings happen 21 feet and closer with 5-10 feet having the most. Police accuracy in shootings range from 12% to 38% from what I have read. Couple in the fact already stated that handgun rounds are not likely to stop a threat with a single round or even a couple rounds and you can understand the importance of training as much as you can.


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## Tired_Yeti

Smitty901 said:


> ...9mm has sent many men to the grave.


Agreed. I think when speaking of military body counts, it's fair to keep in mind that many of those rounds were fired from sub machine guns. Whether the MP-40 of Nazi Germany all the way to the modern day of the HK MP-5. I thinks it's fair to say that the vast majority of 9mm kills have been from multiple rounds, whether from pistol or SMG.
I certainly recommend a 9mm over anything smaller such as the .380 on down to the .22lr. Just me, but I feel like the 9mm is the smallest caliber to comfortably rely on for defense. Even then, I'd want the hot loads. I guess I just question why people are quick to embrace the smallest caliber legitimate when talking about saving their own life. Yes, ammo is inexpensive and you can more easily carry a lot of it. That's good because you'll probably need a lot of it if your day hits the fan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smitty901

US military really does not use hand guns for much. Except in movies. It is more of a just in case tool.


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## Maine-Marine

budgetprepp-n said:


> A rant,,,,,, I'm taking to a gun shop on the phone and he keeps calling a magazine a clip.
> 
> For heavens sake it's a MAGAZINE! I might be
> a little bit of a newbie but even I know that much.
> Would that bother you? Guys like that just pull my pin.


Magazine, clip, bullet holder.... as long as I know what we are talking about , I could care less what it is called


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## bigwheel

rice paddy daddy said:


> THIS is what I always want to scream at the computer screen every time I read the term "shot placement", written as if this mantra is perfectly achievable.
> In a gun fight your adrenaline level will go from zero to sky high in one or two heart beats, your opponent will most likely be moving, and you damn sure better not be standing still if you don't want to get shot.
> You will be LUCKY if you HIT your opponent.


Well as the TV preacher say Luck is a blessing bestowed by Lucifer. Training and skill is tops. That gives a person Good Fortune. lol.


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## mobius999

Tired_Yeti said:


> The nicest handgun I've ever fired was a SigSauer P-226.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sig does make a fine handgun. I live 20 miles from the factory and it took me 40 years to fire one. Now my P320RX is my favorite handgun. Although I'm not all that crazy about the reflex sight. Not the quality, just the concept in general. I use the iron sights most of the time.


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## Smitty901

mobius999 said:


> Sig does make a fine handgun. I live 20 miles from the factory and it took me 40 years to fire one. Now my P320RX is my favorite handgun. Although I'm not all that crazy about the reflex sight. Not the quality, just the concept in general. I use the iron sights most of the time.


 Learn to use a good reflex and you will make the iron a back up only. Nothing beats a good red dot reflex sight for fast shot placement. Nothing it has been proven without a doubt for many years now.


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## RedLion

Smitty901 said:


> Learn to use a good reflex and you will make the iron a back up only. Nothing beats a good red dot reflex sight for fast shot placement. Nothing it has been proven without a doubt for many years now.


Unless you use a laser....


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## Smitty901

RedLion said:


> Unless you use a laser....


 Reflex beats laser . Many reasons one the laser is external it projects a point you must find and place. The Reflex is internal and line with your eyes no point to find. Good reflex can even be fire accurately with front lens cover on and still hit the target. When you learn to use one and try it you will be amazed at that trick. Laser when set up right is more accurate when you have time to prepare the shot.
Then back to the battery thing Aim Point pro battery life 3 years even if you never turn it off. I have one now testing it has gone 3 year 2 months still going.


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## RedLion

Smitty901 said:


> Reflex beats laser . Many reasons one the laser is external it projects a point you must find and place. The Reflex is internal and line with your eyes no point to find. Good reflex can even be fire accurately with front lens cover on and still hit the target. When you learn to use one and try it you will be amazed at that trick. Laser when set up right is more accurate when you have time to prepare the shot.
> Then back to the battery thing Aim Point pro battery life 3 years even if you never turn it off. I have one now testing it has gone 3 year 2 months still going.


I disagree as I can get on target and get shots off on my Glock 17 and .40 Shield faster with just using the laser. Also using a laser during dry fire practice will show you your faults.


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## mobius999

Smitty901 said:


> Learn to use a good reflex and you will make the iron a back up only. Nothing beats a good red dot reflex sight for fast shot placement. Nothing it has been proven without a doubt for many years now.


I'll give it another chance, maybe I gave up too early. Too be fair I have had a major change in my shooting right after I got the 320 that might be a factor. Here in NH there are no public ranges and I accidentally let my membership at my club lapse. That makes you a new member and the roster is full so I've been a ship without a port for about 8 months. I used to get in 500 rounds a week with my carry, now I'm lucky to shoot once every 2-3 months.

I never got used to the reflex so I think I just revert back to what's familiar on the rare occasion I get to shoot now. Time to get off my rear and join another club I guess.


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## Smitty901

mobius999 said:


> I'll give it another chance, maybe I gave up too early. Too be fair I have had a major change in my shooting right after I got the 320 that might be a factor. Here in NH there are no public ranges and I accidentally let my membership at my club lapse. That makes you a new member and the roster is full so I've been a ship without a port for about 8 months. I used to get in 500 rounds a week with my carry, now I'm lucky to shoot once every 2-3 months.
> 
> I never got used to the reflex so I think I just revert back to what's familiar on the rare occasion I get to shoot now. Time to get off my rear and join another club I guess.


 Keep in mind a reflex sight is not a laser it it projected in the sight only. Both eyes OPEN. learn to relax and allow your natural ability to focus on some thing to do the work. Good luck


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## The Tourist

I use Hornady Critical Defense ammunition. Oh, it's good stuff. If you 'Mozambique' the perp my guess is he's down for the count. But that's not the only reason I use it. I live in Madison.

Good guys with guns usually get sued by the shooter or his heirs. I'm taking a box of Hornadys with me to my trial. I'll tell the DA I only use "defensive" ammunition, and show him the box.


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## Smitty901

The Tourist said:


> I use Hornady Critical Defense ammunition. Oh, it's good stuff. If you 'Mozambique' the perp my guess is he's down for the count. But that's not the only reason I use it. I live in Madison.
> 
> Good guys with guns usually get sued by the shooter or his heirs. I'm taking a box of Hornadys with me to my trial. I'll tell the DA I only use "defensive" ammunition, and show him the box.


 Major hijack of the thread but what the heck Big supporter of Hornady , Hand gun, Rifle , Box ammo, match grade and reload. In the full size Hnad guns Critical Duty (they work well in others also) critical defense in the small ones.
No doubt their are many good rounds out there and most of them do the job. I just like the way Hornady operates as a company.


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## keith9365

RubberDuck said:


> Anything is better than throwing a stick but my EDC is 45
> After watching this video of the firefighter and his neighbor I'm sure we have all seen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will not carry a 9mm this guy was hit 4 times in the chest and was able to return fire get up and walk to house to call 911.
> This absolutely would not have happened with a 45


This had to be FMJ ammo. I don't see how he would have walked off a good hollow point.


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## hawgrider

keith9365 said:


> This had to be FMJ ammo. I don't see how he would have walked off a good hollow point.


 Why do you think most PD's got away from the 9MM?


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## Smitty901

hawgrider said:


> Why do you think most PD's got away from the 9MM?


When did they say it was a 9mm?
Not really after they left they came back for the most part. the 40 did not pan out that well and the 10 was just not going to fit. For the most part LEO carry what they are told to not what they want. Department buys what they make the best deal on and that is what they issue. That is how Glock got in they sold to LE below cost.


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## MisterMills357

rice paddy daddy said:


> Nope, I don't have or want a Tokarev.
> BUT, that is a hot round that it fires.
> 
> The only foreign military pistol I have is a Walther P-1, which is a post war P-38. The reason I say its military is because of the West German Army acceptance marks on it.
> In fact, it is the only 9MM I own (except for the .380 Ruger).


OK RPD, those are quite acceptable guns, in my view, including the .380. ACP. But, see my comments below.



RedLion said:


> Actually I am a fan of my Serbian M57 Zavasta 7.62x25. You can still buy them new. Mine is an excellent grade original that I have been able to shoot well. It is a handgun that I carry in my get home bag. A gun that I would be OK using as a defensive weapon to get home. I carry 6 loaded mags and another 50 round box of ammo. I have not shot it at 100 yards yet, but I have seen a fair number of folks consistently hit steal with it at 100 yards. The M57 also has a 9 round mag versus 8 for the Tokarev.


OK RedLion, that is acceptable to me, I would own one and I would be OK with that.
BUT, I am a whole lot more OK with these: a Super Blackhawk or a Speed Six, and kicking it up a notch, a Ruger Alsakan would be a good gun for me. Put me down as power mad, because I like it.

To: RPD & Redlion:
I would be happy with a Tokarev, or a Makarov; but I would be happier with a .44 Magnum. The best compromise that I have found for my happiness is a 357 Magnum. So, that is what I tend to get.


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## Notold63

For concealed carry my standard pistol is a 9mm (Sig P229). The pistol I have next to my bed in the night stand is a .45 ACP Kimber 1911, and the pistol I have hanging at my side when out in the woods is a .357 Magnun. Different calibers and pistol sizes for different situations. I will say that I almost always use a 124gr HP round in my 9 mm.


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## The Tourist

There is a way to get both. Let me explain.

After the 1986 FBI shooting, the Feds wanted more fire power. It was the LEAA that tested every load to find the one that was the most lethal. They settled on the 125 grain, Federal .357 round. (How the 10mm Auto and the 1076 SW got into the mix I have no idea. I owned a Bren Ten.)

But not not all shooters like revolvers. However, Glock invented the 357 SIG. It's actually a 9mm, but it's used in an automatic pistol and it has just about the same clout as the Federal round.

I'm not much of a Glock guy, I've owned three of them and sold them all. But if I needed a pistol for work, I would consider the 357 SIG Glock as meeting most of the needs and preferences of the debating points here.


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## Jammer Six

A caliber war?

That's so... 90s.


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## BookWorm

I was having this same conversation with the owner of a gun store in 1992, the year I became old enough to own a handgun. He had good points about both, capacity capability, stopping power, FPS, expansion, etc. The conversation went on for 90 minutes and 4-5 other customers all chimed in to give their opinions, all of which was good information to take into consideration. Finally a guy said, "listen, you could keep this going all day... how are you going to decide. Just flip a coin, heads .45acp, tails 9mm.

I offered an alternative... at the time I was working for a portrait studio (Glamour Shots) and one of their makeup artists had agreed to pose with the gun I purchased in some James Bond type poses. So... I said "how about we let fate decide, if the next woman to walk in the door is a blonde, I'll get a 9mm, if she is a brunette a .45 acp. 

Everyone went silent, had almost the same expression on their face, one of curiosity and a little anxious. 

Two hours later a redhead walks in.

It was the owners mother in law. "she can find a way to f_ck anything up," he said.


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## The Tourist

BookWorm said:


> Two hours later a redhead walks in.


As you know, bikers are superstitious about redheads. You get a couple of us together and someone mentions "redheads" and out come a bunch of stories of madness, anger, threats, and great sex.

We also claim that redheads kill more bikers than Harleys.

Funny thing, though. I dated a redhead 40 years ago for only about four or five months. I still think of her.


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## RedLion

> Why People Argue About 9mm vs. .45 ACP


Why People Argue About 9mm vs. .45 ACP - The Truth About Guns


----------



## dsdmmat

The Tourist said:


> As you know, bikers are superstitious about redheads. You get a couple of us together and someone mentions "redheads" and out come a bunch of stories of madness, anger, threats, and great sex.
> 
> We also claim that redheads kill more bikers than Harleys.
> 
> Funny thing, though. I dated a redhead 40 years ago for only about four or five months. I still think of her.


I have dated 3 redheads, I would never marry one though, being a redhead myself that would be a very interesting household especially if alcohol was involved.

Back to the topic 9mm or 45 doesn't really matter, the point is you chose them in the 1911 and that shows very good judgement IMHO.


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## The Tourist

dsdmmat said:


> Back to the topic 9mm or 45 doesn't really matter, the point is you chose them in the 1911 and that shows very good judgement IMHO.


Here's a brain-bender. I got my first 1911 and the redhead about the same time...


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## Back Pack Hack

Instead of arguing calibers, try this exercise:

Who is most likely to win a gunfight? The person to get shots on target first or the one who gets shot first?


----------



## KUSA

45 ACP - big but slow
9mm - not as big but much faster

At point blank range the terminal ballistics are very comparable. At longer ranges the 45 slows down and the HP may not expand. The 9 will probably retain enough velocity to still expand.

The fact of the matter is if you are worried about which one is better, you should just grab a rifle.


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## Hemi45

A 9mm will kill the body but a .45 kills the soul


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## KUSA

Hemi45 said:


> A 9mm will kill the body but a .45 kills the soul


Need a 44 magnum for that.


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## Boss Dog

45 acp, because sometimes short fat and slow can still do the job


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## okey

I was a cocked and locked fan for decades, but switched to the Kahr CW9 for a practice gun and the Kahr CM9 for carry (pants pocket holster) The option of having your hand on the gun while still being discrete, saving at least 1/4 second on the draw stroke, without any worries about getting a bad grasp on the gun butt, not properly clearing the concealing garment, etc, make all the difference. If you seriously grind off the corners, you can make a micro 9mm, in a kydex rig, look exactly like a wallet in your pocket. If you then carry your money on a clip in your pocket, and your cards, etc, in either an ankle pouch or a traveler's belt pouch, there's zero need of a shirt over the pocket. If you start first, the draw and hit (at arms-length( can take less than .40 second, and at 10 ft, only .50 second. You can learn to do the latter as you side-step, which allows you to beat a man who's got a gun pointed at you. However, your bullet hitting him does not necessarily render him unable to still shoot you, perhaps multiple times. So such a thing is only for when you think that he's going to shoot you, regardless of what you do. Sold my other handguns as I have no real need of them. Pocket 9mm's are not all that durable, so I shoot the CM9 very little and then only with 380 type reloads, maybe 50 rds per year of full charge ammo. The wear and fouling of practice belong on the practice-spare, not on the actual carry-gun. Being told to "hand it over" or "show me your hands" puts things right where I want them to be.


----------



## NotTooProudToHide

SGT E said:


> Kentucky State Police moved to 357 Magnum in the early 70's because they kept having problems with people on PCP....It was the end of the problems.
> 
> I love my .45's and I have two loads....A light load of bullseye and a 180 grain wad cutter for plinking and a max load of Hodgdon CFE under a 160 grain Barnes Tac XP or equivalent weight Hollow point running 1150 FPS. Its faster than 3 or 4 of the 357 magnum slower loads and slightly heavier. I carry the hotter loads concealed carry and they shoot well in all my pistols.... After a shooting if you think you would have problems in court keep in mind you or I could have chosen a S&W 500 but didn't....Killing capability of what you carry is a moot point.I carry for dog and bear protection as well.
> 
> Back to the 9mm.... A 147 grain (MAX WEIGHT) 9mm hollow point whatever at max load cant reach the speed / weight or ft pounds of knock down power of my 160 grain Barnes in a .45 ACP....Go to the manuals and the reloading books.
> 
> https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5JLrBGRl2


They've switched back to Glock 9mm's with hot ammo


----------



## okey

first you have to HIT, good hits, without being hit yourself, or the power is moot. heavy recoil slows down repeat hits. Most shots in combat completely miss the attacker and most hits are poor hits. Also, there's often more than one attacker, so repeat hit speed IS important. NOBODY, using a lw, compact ccw pistol, gets repeat hits as fast with a heavy ..45 load as they can with a 9mm and there's no such thing as a controlable .45 pocket pistol. The "hand in pocket" start is a tremendous advantage. In bad weather, you have to fight thru TWO garments to get at a belt rig. The pocket gun can be in the hand, in the coat pocket. If you keep your hands in your pockets, you also dont have to be removing gloves, or getting poor hits due to wearing gloves. I can just "palm" rig and all between pants pocket and coat pocket. You'll do nothing of the kind with a larger pistol.


----------



## Jammer Six

If you could do half of what you claim, you'd be able to write a legible post.

You don't sound like you're trying to convince _us_.


----------



## SDF880

After years for looking at data, gel tests, reading medical reports and buying way too many
carry pistols and trying them out and holsters here is my 2 cents. I think any modern ammo 
9MM thru 45ACP is just fine I see little difference in the data but saying that I do see a however slight edge
to the 357MAG. I love my 357MAG revolvers but they are only 6, 7 and 2 have 8 shot capability. I have tried
to match up the hottest 357SIG ammo to my EDC to mirror 357MAG and M&Pc gives me considerable more rounds than the revolver
especially if I use the full size mags!

I'd go with 10MM but I think if you used one lawyers would go after you saying "you used a round the EF BEE EYE found too powerful
and you are a killer!" 

My 2 cents your mileage may wary!


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## Real Old Man

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is the type of event you are dealing with. Short to mid term (say not to exceed a year) both are probably going to get one thru and not have to worry about running out of ammo. However long term both of these tend to operate thru a very narrow pressure window. You just can't stuff any old powder or slug in them and hope thay'll work. Better to have a revolver chambered in 38/357 and have the ability to load cartridges from one end of the spectrym (target loads) to the other (he77 for stomping loads).


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## okey

you're kidding yourself. The pistol has almost no value when everyone has a fighting rifle and they will, once shtf has been the case for a year, Nearly everyone will be dead, those who make it that far are going to know to keep the real deal on an assault sling, not some silly wheelgun in a holster.


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## Jammer Six

Bring your rifle. I'll bring my pistol.


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## Jammer Six

I hope I have dies for whatever idiot caliber you bought into for your rifle.


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## okey

Jammer Six said:


> Bring your rifle. I'll bring my pistol.


If you're talking to me, why would I need you? The pistol wont amount to a hill of beans once shtf. It never does, once things get serious on the societal level. The pistol is for use vs the unrarmed, or those who only have knives and clubs. Once everyone has a longarm, the only thing a pistol is good for is suicide.


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## Jammer Six

What caliber is your rifle?


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