# CCW- What would you have done?



## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

So hubby and I went up to the cabin for the weekend. It is tucked back away in the woods, and we are the only folks back there. (It's still early in the season with lots of snow and mud. Forest service roads still closed and only home owners have the gate combos to get into the closed areas.) I ALWAYS carry my hand gun when on the roads and so when we come out to go into town for a nice meal, I have my gun with me. Not wanting to leave it in the car while we are in town, I have it under my clothing and it is perfectly concealed. My CCW permit is in my purse, although AZ allows CC without a permit. So I have been dying for some great Thai food, but when we get to the restaurant , there is a "NO FIREARMS" sign on the door. What would you have done?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Haven't changed my position since last month; if my weapon isn't welcome, neither is my money.

Who am I to not respect their wishes? I don't own their restaurant.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Does the sign carry the weight of law in AZ? I would go eat some food while armed. But that's me. If I have to go into a federal building like the post office I have a small safe that locks under the seat of my truck and has a cable attaching it to the seat frame. You would have to have bolt cutters to steal the gun.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> Does the sign carry the weight of law in AZ? I would go eat some food while armed. But that's me. If I have to go into a federal building like the post office I have a small safe that locks under the seat of my truck and has a cable attaching it to the seat frame. You would have to have bolt cutters to steal the gun.


Ditto.
Here in Texas, Ark and I enjoy the luxury of laughing at "No Firearms" signs, and going in anyways. It must be a very specific sign to actually hold the weight of law.
Why would I deny myself delicious Thai food just because the restaurant's insurance company wants a no guns sign?
Just like Ark, I too have the same under-the-seat lockbox tethered to the frame for those times when I truly can't carry.


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

There's always the option of "Take Out". When the weather is nice, go back, bring your camp chairs, order "take out", and eat in front of the place!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

BagLady said:


> There's always the option of "Take Out". When the weather is nice, go back, bring your camp chairs, order "take out", and eat in front of the place!


While open carrying?

Lady, you are a hoot! :highly_amused:


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

RNprepper said:


> So hubby and I went up to the cabin for the weekend. It is tucked back away in the woods, and we are the only folks back there. (It's still early in the season with lots of snow and mud. Forest service roads still closed and only home owners have the gate combos to get into the closed areas.) I ALWAYS carry my hand gun when on the roads and so when we come out to go into town for a nice meal, I have my gun with me. Not wanting to leave it in the car while we are in town, I have it under my clothing and it is perfectly concealed. My CCW permit is in my purse, although AZ allows CC without a permit. So I have been dying for some great Thai food, but when we get to the restaurant , there is a "NO FIREARMS" sign on the door. What would you have done?


The owner of the business has the RIGHT to not allow firearms into his business. Either leave your firearm in the car or go somewhere else. If you don't respect the RIGHTS of others then how can you expect them to respect yours?


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Ditto.
> Here in Texas, Ark and I enjoy the luxury of laughing at "No Firearms" signs, and going in anyways. It must be a very specific sign to actually hold the weight of law.
> Why would I deny myself delicious Thai food just because the restaurant's insurance company wants a no guns sign?
> Just like Ark, I too have the same under-the-seat lockbox tethered to the frame for those times when I truly can't carry.


Sure, just ignore the RIGHTS of other people. I can't begin to state how disgusting I find that. If someone doesn't want me to bring a firearm onto their property, I don't. I also don't go into other people's homes and smoke cigarettes if they object, or anything else they don't want. If I don't like their rules, I DON'T GO THERE. Not only is it a case of respecting other people's RIGHTS, but it is also common COURTESY.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> Does the sign carry the weight of law in AZ? I would go eat some food while armed. But that's me. If I have to go into a federal building like the post office I have a small safe that locks under the seat of my truck and has a cable attaching it to the seat frame. You would have to have bolt cutters to steal the gun.


I really don't see what difference it makes if the sign carries the weight of the law or not. If the owner has indicated that they don't want people to bring firearms onto their property then someone shouldn't bring firearms onto their property. If you have a problem with that then DON'T GO THERE. Respect other people's RIGHTS if you expect them to respect yours, and also have some common courtesy.


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

No weapons,none of my money.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> I really don't see what difference it makes if the sign carries the weight of the law or not. If the owner has indicated that they don't want people to bring firearms onto their property then someone shouldn't bring firearms onto their property. If you have a problem with that then DON'T GO THERE. Respect other people's RIGHTS if you expect them to respect yours, and also have some common courtesy.


It's not like I'm going in there waving my .45 around and saying "hey! Look at me I'm a MWG!! isn't it cool?!?!" I'm there to enjoy a meal or shop just like everyone else. Remember the Luby's massacre in Killeen TX? When Dr. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp watched her parents being murdered... The law at the time forced her to leave her gun in the car. Everybody was left defenseless except the madman... No thanks. I'm not gonna leave it in the car unless the law says I have to. Sorry that upsets you so much.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_shooting

Read the aftermath section. There are many other cases like this. I just chose this one randomly.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Two simple choices. Leave your gun on & go elsewhere or take it off & go inside. Owners made a choice about putting the sign up & I don't think the sign being legally displayed matters. You respect their rights or you don't. You have the right to go to the grocery store & get the stuff to make the thai food at home.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> The owner of the business has the RIGHT to not allow firearms into his business. Either leave your firearm in the car or go somewhere else. If you don't respect the RIGHTS of others then how can you expect them to respect yours?


I have to say...My mind has been changed. Before I would have said to heck with them and go in any way...It is after all CONCEALED

but as stated above, it is their business and I should respect their desires in their building.

good post notsoyoung - thanks


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Arklatex said:


> It's not like I'm going in there waving my .45 around and saying "hey! Look at me I'm a MWG!! isn't it cool?!?!" I'm there to enjoy a meal or shop just like everyone else. Remember the Luby's massacre in Killeen TX? When Dr. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp watched her parents being murdered... The law at the time forced her to leave her gun in the car. Everybody was left defenseless except the madman... No thanks. I'm not gonna leave it in the car unless the law says I have to. Sorry that upsets you so much.
> 
> Luby's shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Read the aftermath section. There are many other cases like this. I just chose this one randomly.


I hear what you are saying, but it boils down to respecting the wishes of the restaurant owners as much as anything else.

Nothing says you have to be there at all. It is a choice to go to a restaurant. I'll bet there are other restaurants, and I'll bet other good ones.

Two things you can do. You can let the no-weapons restaurant know you, your weapon and your money respected their wishes. What about the restaurant that got your business, instead? Let them know you appreciate their not being panty-waisted, limp-wristed retards, and that you'll be back with more money and a man-sized appetite more often.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

As long as it was hid good..I would go have the flied lice and fish heads or whatever them folks eat. If a person was forced to use it on a bad guy...the legalese of carrying would be the least of the worries.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Denton said:


> I hear what you are saying, but it boils down to respecting the wishes of the restaurant owners as much as anything else.
> 
> Nothing says you have to be there at all. It is a choice to go to a restaurant. I'll bet there are other restaurants, and I'll bet other good ones.
> 
> Two things you can do. You can let the no-weapons restaurant know you, your weapon and your money respected their wishes. What about the restaurant that got your business, instead? Let them know you appreciate their not being panty-waisted, limp-wristed retards, and that you'll be back with more money and a man-sized appetite more often.


Lucky for me. In my area there are no such signs. Except where it backed by law. Such as the post office and courthouses, 51% business, schools, etc. I leave my gun in the car in those instances. I don't feel I am violating anybodys rights by CCing. If they ask me to leave because they somehow saw my weapon, then I will leave and not make a scene.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Arklatex said:


> Lucky for me. In my area there are no such signs. Except where it backed by law. Such as the post office and courthouses, 51% business, schools, etc. I leave my gun in the car in those instances. I don't feel I am violating anybodys rights by CCing. If they ask me to leave because they somehow saw my weapon, then I will leave and not make a scene.


If they say they want no firearms on their premises and you bring a weapon on their premises, how do you think you are not violating their right? I would agree with you if you were being forced on private property, but you aren't.

You are simply rationalizing supporting the owners of an establishment who do not like our kind simply because you are a slave to your own taste buds! :-x


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> Sure, just ignore the RIGHTS of other people. I can't begin to state how disgusting I find that. If someone doesn't want me to bring a firearm onto their property, I don't. I also don't go into other people's homes and smoke cigarettes if they object, or anything else they don't want. If I don't like their rules, I DON'T GO THERE. Not only is it a case of respecting other people's RIGHTS, but it is also common COURTESY.


If I am expected to follow the law, then I hold everyone else to the same standard.
The Texas Penal Code is quite clear on the requirements that must be met to legally restrict a concealed carrier from bringing their gun into a business. If the business follows what the law says, and posts a proper 30.06 sign, then I obey the law as well and either don't enter, or don't carry.
However, if they are not following the law with regards to restriction, perhaps there is another reason.
Case in point, Target stores. Target came under the magnifying glass last year for stating that they did not want open carried long guns in their Texas stores. However, they made the point to say that they would NOT pursue legal means to restrict.
What could that mean?
Think on this, would you?
A business costs a great deal of money to own and operate. Most businesses hold insurance policies to cover themselves. Most insurance policies REQUIRE that firearms be restricted from the premises. So, the owner posts a "No Guns Allowed" ghostbuster sign on the front door, and calls it a day. He's satisfied his insurance company, and in the case of Texas businesses, has not restricted me from legally carrying.
He gets my business, and he gets to keep his insurance coverage. I call that a win-win.

*That*, my friend, is why I will always carry where not legally restricted from doing so.

It may be his business, but it could be my life.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I am not committed to any Resteraunt so much that it would take me more then 2 seconds to decide to go elsewhere. They don't want my weapon then they don't get my money.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Something not mentioned is the chance some liberal judge revokes your CCW because you went into an establishment that had a sign that stated no firearms. Just not worth taking the chance to me.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

I have done all of the following...
Carried anyway - concealed is my business.
Opted to take my money elsewhere.
And my favorite - Put the UNLOADED gun in the car and left the magazine plainly visible on the table while I ate - you know... So I have a visual reminder that I need to load my weapon when I get back to the car.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> Something not mentioned is the chance some liberal judge revokes your CCW because you went into an establishment that had a sign that stated no firearms. Just not worth taking the chance to me.


In Texas, the law is clear. An offense is only committed if proper notice was given to the carrier and they refused to leave. It is considered a trespass charge. Before ever reaching a courtroom, you would first have to be charged by a DA. Without receiving proper notice, as it is defined in the law, no charge could be brought against someone carrying. A "No firearms" sign is NOT considered proper notice.
When it could mean my life, and it's perfectly legal, it *is* worth taking the chance.

Whether to go in to such a place would still be a personal choice, and not one I would force on anyone.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

RIGHTS... rights. mmmmm.
We sure do toss that around like it is the end of the argument.

In FL, the biz owner can post a sign and it does NOT have the weight of law.
However, the biz owner can call the cops and report an "armed trespasser" - not something you want on your resume'.
Does the individual still have the "right" to defend them self according to the 2nd Amendment? few of us can afford the fight to win in court.

Shakespeare once wrote "Discretion is the better part of valor" (I think his CCW was a knife).

So should you carry beyond the sign? I do when I go to the movies with my sweetheart. I do most places I go legally. 
I don't like it that I cannot carry on a public school property to pick up my grand daughter from school because her mom is in a meeting.
I use discretion.
Biz owner who post a sign are generally doing so based upon legal counsel or franchise advisement. The owner may not even be asserting any "rights" at all.

Concerning the OP question. If in FL, and the eatery is not also a bar, in my discretion, I would carry. Enjoy my Thai food thank the owner for the delicious food leave a nice tip.

RPD and I ate at a Wendy's in JAX a few months ago. 
I felt safe the whole time we slurped the chili and ate our fries.

Wendy's is not on this list: The Boycott List | Second Amendment Check

However, there seem to be other places I visit on there list... at my own discretion. 
I am always polite. I am always a gentleman. BUT, I am not going to be a victim.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

I stand in the doorway and get an employee's attention. Point out the sign and state how hungry I am and would really like to do business with them. But I'm not allowed in because of your sign. Tell them I will also pass the info along to all that will listen not to waste their time because of the sign. Politely leave.

IMO you have to let them know they are losing business because of it. Simply walking by and not saying anything isn't in my nature.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Denton said:


> Haven't changed my position since last month; if my weapon isn't welcome, neither is my money.
> 
> Who am I to not respect their wishes? I don't own their restaurant.


EXACTLY!

I will take my business elsewhere, and respect their right to not get any of my money.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> I will take my business elsewhere, and respect their right to not get any of my money.


That is perfectly acceptable.
Like I said, I would not force my choice on anyone else.

I went to the restaurant to eat, not to carry my gun.
My purpose is the consumption of food... while I happen to be carrying as I always do.
If they have not legally restricted me from carrying, I will achieve my primary goal of consuming mass quantities, and do so while armed.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Notsoyoung said:


> The owner of the business has the RIGHT to not allow firearms into his business. Either leave your firearm in the car or go somewhere else. If you don't respect the RIGHTS of others then how can you expect them to respect yours?


Here are two responses I added to another forum (gun forum) on the same topic. I'm copying and pasting (taking the cheap way out) so please forgive me. In full acknowledgement, I live in AZ so my state laws may differ - but the OP is AZ too so there may be some specific relevance for her.



> Great question and a hard one to knock out in text but here goes... And this is strictly my opinion and only my opinion. I represent no one but my own self and beliefs when I say this.
> 
> Your right to self protection is an existing God given right. It comes from the creator - be that God, Jehova, Allah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All people have the right to self protection and when no one will do it for you, it becomes your responsibility to look out for your self. In our country, this right is acknowledged, confirmed, and protected by the 2nd Amendment to the constitution - part of the bill of rights, which I believe should always be looked at as one single document and never dismantled into separate amendments. But that's neither here no there...
> 
> ...





> I guess I see it like this...
> Business regulate smoking because it is a behavior. But they don't regulate if you carry cigarettes or dip.
> Businesses regulate dress code because it is a behavior. But they don't tell me I can only wear Tighty-Whities under my clothes.
> 
> ...


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't particularly care for Thai food so I'm going to the fabulous steakhouse across the street.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Here is a page of business cards you can print to hand to these people who don't want our business.
In Illinois, even tho it was after I left, the group of fellow shooters would drop a card off at any business 
posting such signs. Then we would spread the word and anyone traveling even close to the business would
swing by and drop off their cards.
After a short time, a few of the businesses pulled the signs. I print both sides on my printer
View attachment 10332

View attachment 10333


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

That's awesome paraquack! Thanks.


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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Denton said:


> Haven't changed my position since last month; if my weapon isn't welcome, neither is my money.
> 
> *Who am I to not respect their wishes? I don't own their restaurant*.


Denton, Your attitude toward the owner of the property is refreshing indeed.

You were taught the difference between agreeing with someone and respecting their rights.


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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> If I am expected to follow the law, then I hold everyone else to the same standard.
> The Texas Penal Code is quite clear on the requirements that must be met to legally restrict a concealed carrier from bringing their gun into a business. If the business follows what the law says, and posts a proper 30.06 sign, then I obey the law as well and either don't enter, or don't carry.
> However, if they are not following the law with regards to restriction, perhaps there is another reason.
> Case in point, Target stores. Target came under the magnifying glass last year for stating that they did not want open carried long guns in their Texas stores. However, they made the point to say that they would NOT pursue legal means to restrict.
> ...


Meaning I have the right to say or do anything to you that isn't explicitly forbidden by law?


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

ask them very politely if they will make an exception for you, then go somewhere else if they turn you down. This way they will know what kind of person they are turning away.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

NSY, I see your point and on private property I agree. Hell, whether or not I agree, I respect your respect of others wishes. I tend not to look at signs as I enter buildings (except for government ones) and therefore don't notice any restrictions. If I was invited to someone's house and knew they didn't want guns there, I'd go unarmed or more likely not go but I wouldn't disrespect anyone's home.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

They get none of my cash. I encourage others to stay away. I then write them a polite educated letter as t why they will not longer see us.
We do this often. Had a Harley dealer try that took us 1 week to get the sign removed.
Local pool company lost out to someone from out of town because local teachers union ask him to post his business. He was not happy about it when he found out he lost the cash


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

I think it would be reasonable to let them know by walking in and explaining that you do not like your rights to be infringed upon and that is why you are taking your patronage else where. Other wise they won't know.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

This is bringing on some strong remembrance of when the democrat decided to shoot up the Luby's at Kileen where Tejas law at the time decided you could not bring the shooting iron into the establishment..the alleged perp come in there and killed her Mama and Daddy along with a bunch of other nice folks. She say..I sure wished I had ignored that signage or something real similar. She is a strong voice to make the liberals keep their hands off our shooting irons.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Who cares. Most of us have packed a million illegal miles. Get a grip. lol


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## TJC357 (Mar 15, 2015)

I've carried a weapon for years, some of that time was with out a permit. My thinking is if it's concealed no one but me should be the wiser, you just have to present yourself in a manner that dictates the situation. Even now since I have my CCW. I carry every day, if my pants are on I've got my gun and I'll continue to do so no matter what.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Sounds like me. I started packing when Moby Dick was still just a minner. Laws is for lawyers..lol. There is a lot of pedantic injuneers who tend to hang out on here. That can interfere with us pragmatic types.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

I walked into a convenience store robbery once.
Ever since I've carried regardless of signs.

I don't carry in the bank or courthouse - they both have armed guards. The merchant is responsible for my safety in his establishment and if he doesn't provide for my protection my right to survive trumps his right to do business.

If I cap some thug while defending my life they can have their permit back, fine with me.
I come out ahead on that deal.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Thats why all rational folks should join the prepaid legal program for them who get entangled on the wheels of justice in some kinda armed encounter. Think since Obummer and Eric X have took over getting No Billed could be a lofty goal..considering the race of the alleged perp of course. Jus heard yesterday they are fixing to Nationalize the Foat Wurth cops. Now that is scary.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

If I did Mr.NiceGuy and honored a no firearms sign, then survived a robbery, I would sue the business owner for negligence, endangerment, mental anguish - and whiplash.

I might not win but I'd make his lawyers rich.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Made several runs to the local dump the last week (old fencing) with the convicts unloading the trailer before I remembered that the pistol was in the glove box. After removing the pistol for the next load I told a guard what I had done and he told me that I had crossed a "federal gun line" but as long as they didn't see the pistol they wouldn't bother anybody.

They have a regular customer who they call "Little Annie Oakley" who they said always shows up with 2 revolvers on her hips and a shotgun in the rack. They just ask her to unload her trash outside the shed away from the convicts before sending her and her pistols home.

I love living in a small town.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

jnichols2 said:


> Meaning I have the right to say or do anything to you that isn't explicitly forbidden by law?


You do understand that's exactly how the law works, right?
You are free to do anything you wish that isn't defined as illegal.


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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

My personal moral standards require I treat you with dignity. Texas law does not.

My personal moral standards forbid me to sneak a firearm into your home or business, even if your sign isn't up to 30.06 standards. Texas law does not.

The law does not define morals, culture, or courtesy. It only defines the minimum level of civilization. Good neighbors go beyond that minimum.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

jnichols2 said:


> My personal moral standards require I treat you with dignity. Texas law does not.
> 
> My personal moral standards forbid me to sneak a firearm into your home or business, even if your sign isn't up to 30.06 standards. Texas law does not.
> 
> The law does not define morals, culture, or courtesy. It only defines the minimum level of civilization. Good neighbors go beyond that minimum.


Fair enough, but that wasn't what you asked.
My life's importance to me and my family requires that I come home safe at the end of the day.
I will not compromise that for the sake of another's moral standards.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

I hear this "my life and my family's life" bs and will point out once again, if they don't want you to bring a firearm into their business then DON'T GO THERE. How hard is that to understand? Frankly I find most of these arguments boiling down to "I don't care what they want, if I want to go into those businesses, I am going to do it. Screw THEIR rights and what they want." People who are so cavalier about stomping on other people's rights shouldn't whine when their own get trampled on. What upsets me even more is that those with attitudes like that paint ALL of us with the same paint brush as a bunch of self centered inconsiderate narcissists.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

When I blundered into that Jiffy Mart robbery what tipped me off was the look of raw terror on the clerk's face - then I noticed three bad uglies giving me the hawkeye. I bolted out the door and ran to my truck and started grabbing my shotgun off the window rack.
When the hyenas saw that they hit the door and ran like cheap paint.
That clerk told me that I could have the shirt off his back anytime.
He quit not long after that but his kids still enjoy the right of having a live father.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> I hear this "my life and my family's life" bs and will point out once again, if they don't want you to bring a firearm into their business then DON'T GO THERE. How hard is that to understand? Frankly I find most of these arguments boiling down to "I don't care what they want, if I want to go into those businesses, I am going to do it. Screw THEIR rights and what they want." People who are so cavalier about stomping on other people's rights shouldn't whine when their own get trampled on. What upsets me even more is that those with attitudes like that paint ALL of us with the same paint brush as a bunch of self centered inconsiderate narcissists.


There is nothing self-centered or narcissistic about considering my life to be important to me, and to the well-being of my family.
I follow the law. I also give them business. They are not in business to restrict my right to carry. They are in business to make money.
If they decide to restrict my right LEGALLY, *then* they won't get my business.
Until then, I'm armed AND they make a profit.

If you can't wrap your skull around this notion, I can't say anything more that will help.


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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Fair enough, but that wasn't what you asked.
> My life's importance to me and my family requires that I come home safe at the end of the day.
> I will not compromise that for the sake of another's moral standards.


I recognize your right to keep yourself and your family safe. In fact, I defended that right for 37 years.
Just not in that particular restaurant that also has property owner rights.
In that case, I will defend your right to take your business elsewhere.

My moral sense of right and wrong will sustain me throughout my lifetime.
What the law says can change in a single election.
If we who carry come off like self righteous "gun nuts", there are a lot of folks in Austin who would love to take away our right to carry.

Me, and a lot of folks on the Texas CHL forum, agree that considering Austin's current District Attorny, we would not want to be the test on a case dealing with 30.06 vs a property owner's sign. After all, she successfully railroaded a sitting Texas Governor.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

jnichols2 said:


> I recognize your right to keep yourself and your family safe. In fact, I defended that right for 37 years.
> Just not in that particular restaurant that also has property owner rights.
> In that case, I will defend your right to take your business elsewhere.
> 
> ...


I'll go ahead and throw it out there, since it's being beaten around a bit...
Private property is wholly different from property intended for public use.
My land, owned by me, is my domain. My wishes for how you are to conduct yourself are iron-clad. If you reject them, you will be removed.
However, a business which is open to the public, is not the same thing.
A business is restricted from discriminating against its clientele. Ample examples have already been provided. (sexual orientation, race, religion, gender, etc...)
It is quite clear, through the events that took place in those cases, that the business owner's "rights" are not the same as a private property owner's rights.
I can restrict you from entering my home for ANY DAMNED REASON that I choose.
But a restaurant can not. There are explicitly defined situations when a business may restrict access. These are defined in the law.
The business owner's ability to exercise their rights extends only so far as the law allows.
That being the case, they cannot randomly restrict me from exercising my rights unless the law allows them to.
In Texas, the law does.
In order to restrict my right to enter with a firearm, they MUST follow the law.
This isn't a difficult concept.

As for those in Austin, the senate just voted to approve an open carry bill, and sent it to the house.
I'm not too worried about it at the moment.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Dr Susan Gratia-Hupp - Survivor of the 1991 Kilee&#8230;:


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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> I'll go ahead and throw it out there, since it's being beaten around a bit...
> Private property is wholly different from property intended for public use.
> My land, owned by me, is my domain. My wishes for how you are to conduct yourself are iron-clad. If you reject them, you will be removed.
> However, a business which is open to the public, is not the same thing.
> ...


Texas 30.06 DOES NOT say a property owner can't restrict someone from bringing a firearm on their property.
It says that if they post the proper sign, YOU are breaking the law by ignoring it.
They can still restrict you, but you commit no crime by ignoring it.

If they post the incorrect sign, and try to evict you, it will be between your lawyer and thier's. 30.06 will not come into play.
These cases are quite often decided by who has the most expensive lawyer.

It probably won't become an issue if your weapon remains concealed. Then it's all about your personal sense of right and wrong.

I surely hope the open carry law passes the House, no question about Governor Abbot signing it.


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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> Dr Susan Gratia-Hupp - Survivor of the 1991 Kilee&#8230;:


I've heard Dr. Hupp on the radio many times.

I doubt we will ever see a law forbidding business owners from restricting firearms.
She does however, make a good case for eating/shopping elsewhere.

Most business owners do not post because of their own feelings. Rather, they are pressured by a small minority of clients.
If we let them know how much business they are losing, the signs will come down.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

July 25, 2014.

Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital near Philadelphia is a gun-free zone. There are even signs posted to let everyone know that firearms are strictly prohibited anywhere in the building. That ban not only applies to patients, but doctors too. Their code of conduct states: Employees are prohibited from bringing firearms or explosives of any kind into the workplace. Yesterday, two people ignored that no-gun policy: one bad guy and one good guy.

For some reason, those "no guns allowed" signs didn't stop Richard Plotts from bringing a gun to the hospital yesterday. The fear of prosecution didn't stop him either. He had an appointment with psychiatrist Dr. Lee Silverman, but mental healing was not on his agenda.

When Plotts pulled out his gun and killed his caseworker Theresa Hunt, he didn't seem to care that murder is illegal. When he turned his gun on the doctor and began firing, he cared even less that multiple homicide is an even more serious offense.

What could have been another massacre in a gun-free zone, took a turn for the better. Dr. Silverman was grazed in the temple, but managed to duck behind his desk. You see, the doctor also chose to ignore the gun-free status of the hospital and was able to get his hands on his own personal firearm. Silverman returned fire, striking Plotts 3 times in the torso.

Dr. Silverman then tackled Plotts into the hallway where hospital employees helped disarm the critically wounded assailant. What would have been a "shooting fish in a barrel" nightmare was averted because a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun. Hey, Wayne LaPierre was right!

It's not just the NRA and myself that recognize this fact, Fox News reports:

Police Chief Donald Molineux said that, "without a doubt, I believe the doctor saved lives. Without that firearm, this guy (the patient) could have went out in the hallway and just walked down the offices until he ran out of ammunition."

Contrary to the media's propaganda, the fact is: guns save lives. Also, running counter to the lefty gun grabbers' assertions, the vast majority of American gun owners are decent responsible people. But the missive is: guns are evil and are only designed to kill the innocent. That's exactly why this isn't a bigger story.

Put a good guy with a gun at Sandy Hook Elementary or the Aurora, CO movie theater and we would have had a couple other non-stories. Gun free zones only apply to good guys. The evildoers don't care what is written on a sign or in a municipal code. These safe zones do, however, welcome killers because the likelihood of resistance is small.

The hospital shooter was taken into surgery and is expected to live. Because he was a psychiatric patient I think it is safe to assume he will never really pay for the murder he committed.

As for the hero doctor who saved the day: I'm guessing he will face prosecution for violating a gun-free zone. He will probably also be fired from the hospital and could even lose his medical license for preventing a massacre. Isn't it great how the laws in this country protect the scumbags but punish the good guys?

Source:Good Guy With A Gun Saves The Day In ?Gun-Free Zone? - Downtrend By Brian Anderson,


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

jnichols2 said:


> Texas 30.06 DOES NOT say a property owner can't restrict someone from bringing a firearm on their property.
> It says that if they post the proper sign, YOU are breaking the law by ignoring it.
> They can still restrict you, but you commit no crime by ignoring it.
> 
> ...


You are correct. It does not say a property owner can't restrict. I didn't imply such.
It details exactly what steps must be taken by the property owner in order to LEGALLY restrict my right.
In the example where a property owner asks me to leave, you don't explicitly state the reason for the demand, but I can assume it has to do with the carrying of a firearm.
If that is the case, then the property owner has determined that I am carrying, or suspects as much, and has made it clear to me that it is not allowed.
Under Texas law, that is considered proper "notice", and if I remain there, I have broken the law. (Trespass By Holder Of License To Carry Concealed Handgun)
You seem to be well versed in it, so this will be redundant to you, but for the purposes of divulging it to all, here are the three methods of legal "notice" that the law provides owners with in my state.
(in no specific order)
Signage - clearly posted in a conspicuous manner, and explicitly worded as stated in the law in both English and Spanish
Physical - document provided to patrons with the same wording and language requirements as above
Verbal - Any spoken statement, wording and language not withstanding, that clearly denotes that firearms are not allowed on the property, given by the owner, or someone whom can legally assume the owner's authority(ex: manager)

Outside of these three methods, none others can legally restrict my right.
Please note, I am NOT arguing that I should be able to carry regardless of their intentions. Some on here believe that to be true, and that is for them to fight out.
I am simply stating that, while I recognize their *wish* for me to not carry, unless they take the necessary actions that the state has defined as legal to properly restrict me, I will still do so. If we want to talk about the morality of this decision, that would be a different topic.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)




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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> July 25, 2014.
> 
> Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital near Philadelphia is a gun-free zone. There are even signs posted to let everyone know that firearms are strictly prohibited anywhere in the building. That ban not only applies to patients, but doctors too. Their code of conduct states: Employees are prohibited from bringing firearms or explosives of any kind into the workplace. Yesterday, two people ignored that no-gun policy: one bad guy and one good guy.
> 
> ...


In 30 - 50% of these cases the prosecutor and employer will look to see justice done. I honestly pray Dr. Silverman finds an honest prosecutor and employer.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

RNprepper said:


> So hubby and I went up to the cabin for the weekend. It is tucked back away in the woods, and we are the only folks back there. (It's still early in the season with lots of snow and mud. Forest service roads still closed and only home owners have the gate combos to get into the closed areas.) I ALWAYS carry my hand gun when on the roads and so when we come out to go into town for a nice meal, I have my gun with me. Not wanting to leave it in the car while we are in town, I have it under my clothing and it is perfectly concealed. My CCW permit is in my purse, although AZ allows CC without a permit. So I have been dying for some great Thai food, but when we get to the restaurant , there is a "NO FIREARMS" sign on the door. What would you have done?


I would have eaten Chinese or Italian or Greek or Indian or...anything but Thai.


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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> You are correct. It does not say a property owner can't restrict. I didn't imply such.
> It details exactly what steps must be taken by the property owner in order to LEGALLY restrict my right.
> In the example where a property owner asks me to leave, you don't explicitly state the reason for the demand, but I can assume it has to do with the carrying of a firearm.
> If that is the case, then the property owner has determined that I am carrying, or suspects as much, and has made it clear to me that it is not allowed.
> ...


Kauboy; We do seem to be on the same page as far as the law.

As for morality, I would choose to skip the Thai food and go to the next restaurant.
I would; however, let the owner know exactly why.

It's not my place to make that decision for you.

Now I'll look up just which carry bill passed the Senate.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

jnichols2 said:


> Kauboy; We do seem to be on the same page as far as the law.
> 
> As for morality, I would choose to skip the Thai food and go to the next restaurant.
> I would; however, let the owner know exactly why.
> ...


SEE!
Common ground reached!

The rest of you, take notice! 

From what I heard and read, the bill that passed the senate was for CHL carriers to open carry. Same steps required to obtain CHL beforehand.
I would like to have seen a bit more libertarian version passed, but I'll consider this a good step.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

RNprepper said:


> So hubby and I went up to the cabin for the weekend. It is tucked back away in the woods, and we are the only folks back there. (It's still early in the season with lots of snow and mud. Forest service roads still closed and only home owners have the gate combos to get into the closed areas.) I ALWAYS carry my hand gun when on the roads and so when we come out to go into town for a nice meal, I have my gun with me. Not wanting to leave it in the car while we are in town, I have it under my clothing and it is perfectly concealed. My CCW permit is in my purse, although AZ allows CC without a permit. So I have been dying for some great Thai food, but when we get to the restaurant , there is a "NO FIREARMS" sign on the door. What would you have done?


My belief is that they have a right to restrict firearms from their business.
But then again, I also have a right to eat somewhere else.
I do not cator to businesses that support gun control.

Yu could send 'em an email so they know how you feel. Most businesses never realize how many people are turned away by those signs. They assume (foolishly) that you will secure your weapon before coming in. I just never ever again eat there.
Thai food in AZ, I doubt you were missing much.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

That is just too easy. I develop taste buds for something else and let them enjoy their gun free zone.



RNprepper said:


> So hubby and I went up to the cabin for the weekend. It is tucked back away in the woods, and we are the only folks back there. (It's still early in the season with lots of snow and mud. Forest service roads still closed and only home owners have the gate combos to get into the closed areas.) I ALWAYS carry my hand gun when on the roads and so when we come out to go into town for a nice meal, I have my gun with me. Not wanting to leave it in the car while we are in town, I have it under my clothing and it is perfectly concealed. My CCW permit is in my purse, although AZ allows CC without a permit. So I have been dying for some great Thai food, but when we get to the restaurant , there is a "NO FIREARMS" sign on the door. What would you have done?


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

It is their business
Abide by their rules or go elsewhere
Wether or not to tell them why is up to you--- I would.


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## BearReed (Oct 11, 2014)

Sort of said here before by others and I too fall into the category of no guns = no money. Signs here don't carry the weight of law either but I check anyway just in case I need to suddenly turn around, get in my truck and drive elsewhere. I have no desire to help fund an establishment that has a policy based on feelings rather than facts and giving other ill-informed customers a false sense of security although I respect their right and wishes to do so. I like "easy" and I found out a long time ago that this approach makes it that way.


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

No firearm, no business. 

And in Texas such a sign carries zero weight.


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## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

Arklatex said:


> July 25, 2014.
> 
> Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital near Philadelphia is a gun-free zone. There are even signs posted to let everyone know that firearms are strictly prohibited anywhere in the building. That ban not only applies to patients, but doctors too. Their code of conduct states: Employees are prohibited from bringing firearms or explosives of any kind into the workplace. Yesterday, two people ignored that no-gun policy: one bad guy and one good guy.
> 
> ...


Ah. But if there were no guns in the country, then the bad guy would not have been able to get ahold of a gun. Therefore, gun control is a good thing. No guns, bad guy can't get ahold of one, no one gets killed. Now turn in your guns, give us the names of people you know who have guns, and VOTE DEMOCRAT!

(Yes this post is dripping with sarcasm!!!)


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

That psych patient should have been a prohibited posessor.
Too bad the AMA has fought for years to not be required to report patients. They claim patient confidentiality, and a concern that future patients will avoid treatment for fear of being placed on the no-gun list. The NRA has battled the AMA on this issue but never got anywhere.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

kevincali said:


> Ah. But if there were no guns in the country, then the bad guy would not have been able to get ahold of a gun. Therefore, gun control is a good thing. No guns, bad guy can't get ahold of one, no one gets killed. Now turn in your guns, give us the names of people you know who have guns, and VOTE DEMOCRAT!
> 
> (Yes this post is dripping with sarcasm!!!)


You almost got me!

I'm sure glad that all those signs keep the would be armed robbery suspects at bay. I don't know what I would do if the criminals didn't care about those signs! Glad they respect the rights of the business owners. Gun free zones are great! I think I've seen the light. Next time my wife and her friends want to eat at some gun hating establishment, I will tell them no: sorry, this business is anti gun. Yall need to pick some other place.... Wake the hell up people! These businesses just want your dollars. They don't give a crap about your safety. If my wife and her friends want to eat at Pantera bread or whatever the hell it's called so be it. I'm walking right past that sign that suggests I should be disarmed and eating one of their crappy sammiches. While armed. You won't know and neither will they. Get over it. I'm not violating anybodys rights.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I like the tuna sandwich and cinnamon scone at Panera Bread. I ate there recently while CC. I was well aware of Panera's corporate stance on firearms but didn't see a sign on the door prohibiting firearms at this particular location. So I went in, bought my overpriced but good sandwich and scone, ate it and left. Thanks


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## Sarahwalker (Mar 3, 2015)

BagLady said:


> There's always the option of "Take Out". When the weather is nice, go back, bring your camp chairs, order "take out", and eat in front of the place!


Like!


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

kevincali said:


> Ah. But if there were no guns in the country, then the bad guy would not have been able to get ahold of a gun. Therefore, gun control is a good thing. No guns, bad guy can't get ahold of one, no one gets killed. Now turn in your guns, give us the names of people you know who have guns, and VOTE DEMOCRAT!
> ...
> (Yes this post is dripping with sarcasm!!!)


Sadly, this *IS* a solution they promote.
It is valid.
Until you bring up that whole inconvenient truth about the purpose of the 2nd Amendment...
Then, you get labeled a traitor to the government. I've been tagged with that more than once.


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## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

I agree 100% with Denton... no gun no money!


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

If There were absolutely no other option and no other dining establishment and it was out in the middle of nowhere I would still save my money and shoot something to eat with my gun. I'd be damned if I'm going to leave it in the car or capitulate to their stupid rule. I would also save my breath in talking to them. They will just get you tangled up in some emotionally based, circuitous argument that ends up in them calling you a racist Cop with his head up his ass. Trust me on this one.


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