# I guess I have to face the fact...



## sideKahr

...that I will never power my home with solar.

I found an online PV calculator, dug out my electric bill, and discovered that I would need at least sixty 100-watt panels. That's all of my unobstructed roof, plus a mini-forest of stanchions on my lawn. Since I've never seen even ONE of these setups in my neighborhood, I have to assume that:

1. solar power isn't viable where I live, or
2. the zoning authorities take a dim view of it.

Oh well, I'll turn my attentions to other projects; the world is full of them, I shan't be bored.


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## Auntie

My goal with solar is the greenhouse (still canning and drying food so no progress there yet), lights, hot water and refrigeration. No plans to power TV, a/c, or any of the other things that suck up power.


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## James m

I think the sun needs to shine. Places like the southwest. Just switch to powering your house with ions, I switched in the late 90's.


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## sideKahr

James m said:


> I think the sun needs to shine. Places like the southwest. Just switch to powering your house with ions, I switched in the late 90's.


LOL. I can't find the di-lithium crystal aisle at Home Depot, but I'll keep looking.


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## Hemi45

Did you price out the initial cost of getting all that set up, regardless of it's practicality?


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## sideKahr

Hemi45 said:


> Did you price out the initial cost of getting all that set up, regardless of it's practicality?


Nope. I'm guessing it would be massive.


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## James m

Some people live where the sun don't shine....


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## Kauboy

Honestly, if you truly looked at your usage, you'd likely see that you use a ton more electricity than necessary just because you can.
Knock out all of the *stuff* you don't actually need to survive, and your use goes down considerably.

Look at all the devices/appliances that you believe are crucial to your survival and comfort, and then check their wattage ratings.
You might be surprised to find that you can run most of them on a moderate system.


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## sideKahr

James m said:


> Some people live where the sun don't shine....


That statement is profound, sir.


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## 1skrewsloose

I like the idea of solar, but akin it to hybrid cars. Bought a 03 Saturn for 3G, gets 30 mpg combined, spend 23G on a new car with same mpg. The 20G you saved will let you drive about 170000 miles at $3.50 per gallon. Rented a 2014 Fusion that got high ratings, didn't think it rode or drove that much better than the Saturn. And I hated the body control system. Plus no monthly payments, sure, there will be upkeep cost, I doubt 20G worth. jmho I'm kinda a cheapskate, took me 6 months to research for a snow blower!!??


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## sideKahr

Kauboy said:


> Honestly, if you truly looked at your usage, you'd likely see that you use a ton more electricity than necessary just because you can. Knock out all of the *stuff* you don't actually need to survive, and your use goes down considerably. Look at all the devices/appliances that you believe are crucial to your survival and comfort, and then check their wattage ratings. You might be surprised to find that you can run most of them on a moderate system.


I'm sure I could save some. My biggest consumers are air conditioning, heating, frost-free refrigeration, and I guess my wife's hair drier. I can't see us giving any of these up. I've already replaced most of my lighting with fluorescents and LEDs, I have a one small TV, a laptop, and occasionally used small appliances. I can't really see where I could cut back much. My problem is that southwestern PA is one of the cloudiest areas in the country.


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## Slippy

SideKahr,

I feel your pain buddy. Its been a few years since I went through the math but from a Feasibility Analysis Viewpoint, it made no business sense. The payback was something like 25 years and by that time I would have to replace the battery bank which as you know is a huge percent of the total cost. 

Hell, I live in the Southeast, have a Passive Solar home with Southern Facing Exposure and a perfectly pitched roof but the payback is not there for me to go solar. 

BUT...from a "peace of mind" standpoint, it makes sense to slowly experiment with Solar and maybe start running your water heater and some small appliances first. Then add a natty gas or LP gas Generator to help keep the batteries charged and you might be on to something. Don't give up, never ever give up!:joyous:


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## Kauboy

sideKahr said:


> I'm sure I could save some. My biggest consumers are air conditioning, heating, frost-free refrigeration, and I guess my wife's hair drier. I can't see us giving any of these up. I've already replaced most of my lighting with fluorescents and LEDs, I have a one small TV, a laptop, and occasionally used small appliances. I can't really see where I could cut back much. My problem is that southwestern PA is one of the cloudiest areas in the country.


Those are some pretty big energy consumers.
If you're in a climate where you require environmental conditioning so survive... I have two things to say.
1. Running them on solar will always be expensive.
2. Move away from there. :mrgreen:


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## sideKahr

Slippy said:


> SideKahr,
> 
> I feel your pain buddy. Its been a few years since I went through the math but from a Feasibility Analysis Viewpoint, it made no business sense. The payback was something like 25 years and by that time I would have to replace the battery bank which as you know is a huge percent of the total cost.
> 
> Hell, I live in the Southeast, have a Passive Solar home with Southern Facing Exposure and a perfectly pitched roof but the payback is not there for me to go solar.
> 
> BUT...from a "peace of mind" standpoint, it makes sense to slowly experiment with Solar and maybe start running your water heater and some small appliances first. Then add a natty gas or LP gas Generator to help keep the batteries charged and you might be on to something. Don't give up, never ever give up!:joyous:


Slippy, you're right. There is no payback in my lifetime. But after reading your post I realize, I do use solar somewhat. I built a south-facing sunroom with insulated floor and roof, that connects to our kitchen and actually heats it on a sunny winter day. I've replaced my roof shingles with a light gray, and super-insulated the attic, so we don't need A.C. upstairs anymore. And I've replanted a good portion of the driveway with trees and grass. That really created a difference in reflected heat in the summer.

But you're right. I won't give up.


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## Camel923

Western PA tends to have a lot of clouds which limits the effectiveness of solar. I figure it may not be a bad Idea to have enough to run the furnace and fridge/freezer, stove, some lights, hot water. Probably a combo of solar/wind would be more effective. or if your lucky enough, free gas via the Marcellus Shale.


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## Eve West

sideKahr said:


> I'm sure I could save some. My biggest consumers are air conditioning, heating, frost-free refrigeration, and I guess my wife's hair drier. I can't see us giving any of these up. I've already replaced most of my lighting with fluorescents and LEDs, I have a one small TV, a laptop, and occasionally used small appliances. I can't really see where I could cut back much. My problem is that southwestern PA is one of the cloudiest areas in the country.


If it's cloudy, is it also windy? Maybe a wind generator setup would work better.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

sideKahr said:


> LOL. I can't find the di-lithium crystal aisle at Home Depot, but I'll keep looking.


Lowes near me had one last year, but it was a darned Klingon chrystal, one of those that de-materialize at the drop of a hat, so I passed on picking it up.


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## sideKahr

Eve West said:


> If it's cloudy, is it also windy? Maybe a wind generator setup would work better.


It's windy east of me in the mountains, and there are some turbines there. But not where I am.


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## Prepadoodle

6,000 watts is a big system. I would love to see some of the numbers you used when doing your cost calculations. With 4 hours average sun in your area, repay should be 8-10 years. Considering the life of a panel (if not the batteries) is on the order of 25 years, it should be worth doing.

Then there's grants and low interest loans and so on. Check HERE to see if any apply to you.

You can get a 3,825 watt grid tie system with battery backup for less than $12,500. That's about $500 a year. The one I am looking at comes with everything you need (except maybe some wire) and features 15 x 255W Kyocera panels. That's roughly 15 kWh/day of power. (details)

Anyway. I would love to see some numbers.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

We have several posters who have lots of wind in their neighborhoods...


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## 8301

homepower.com look at their annual wind turbine comparison chart. Also look up your areas wind speeds for a rough estimate of potential. http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/80m_wind/USwind300dpe4-11.jpg

Wind turbines, even the good ones are fairly high maintance compared to solar. You want to live in a wind zone 3 or higher to make a lot of electricity.


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## sideKahr

Prepadoodle said:


> 6,000 watts is a big system. I would love to see some of the numbers you used when doing your cost calculations. With 4 hours average sun in your area, repay should be 8-10 years. Considering the life of a panel (if not the batteries) is on the order of 25 years, it should be worth doing.
> 
> Then there's grants and low interest loans and so on. Check HERE to see if any apply to you.
> 
> You can get a 3,825 watt grid tie system with battery backup for less than $12,500. That's about $500 a year. The one I am looking at comes with everything you need (except maybe some wire) and features 15 x 255W Kyocera panels. That's roughly 15 kWh/day of power. (details)
> 
> Anyway. I would love to see some numbers.


Okay, here is the site with the calculator:

Off-Grid Solar System Calculator

1. According to Duquesne Light, my total annual usage for the past 12 months was 4885 kWh, or 407 kWh per month. 
2. I used the off-grid system calculator.
3. I used their average sun hours per day map (I'm in zone 5) of 4.2 hours, less 1.5 hr/day to account for less sun in winter as per instructions = 2.7 hours/day. (They warn that winter figures for daily solar gain may be from 25% to 50% LESS than these average figures, so it could be as low as 2.1 hours/day, but I used 2.7)
4. Calculated minimum system size = 5024 watts
5. Requiring 26 * 200 watt panels (or 52 * 100 watt panels).
6. Parts of Montana and North Dakota are also in zone 5 on this solar map. I know they get a lot more sun than Western PA, one of the cloudiest areas in the country, so I added 15% capacity for that and long cable runs = (52 + 7.8) = 60 * 100 watt panels.

I didn't do a cost calculation. When I saw the size of the thing, I gave up. So you think it's do-able, huh? Why is there no PV in our area, I wonder.


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## 8301

Moved post to new thread.


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## Prepadoodle

I don't quite get your step 3. Average annual solar insolation average values should already account for the fact that you get less sun in the winter. Maybe I'm just missing something.

A grid tie system with battery backup should even things out anyway... IF your utility company has a net metering agreement.

As FoolAmI pointed out, installation costs have to factor in too.

Also, if you finance the system at low interest rates, figure in the fixed cost of the payment vs inflation and annual cost of living increases. In 10 or 15 years, the payment will be a lower percentage of your pay check.

Also figure in the rising cost of energy. How much will electricity cost in 10 years? 20?

Also look at buying bigger panels. For example, the Kyocera KD255GX-LFB2 255 Watt Multicrystalline Solar Module are currently about $0.95 per watt. Using less panels means less junctions, less hardware, etc.

Finally, how much is it worth to know you will have some power, even if the grid goes down? You might not have enough to run everything as you do now, but keeping most of your stuff running is better than not having any power.

In the end, it's a decision you have to make, but I would double check the solar insolation values you listed. Look for flat plate tilted at latitude...

U.S. Solar Radiation Resource Maps


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## Ripon

They routinely make 240 watt panels. So now instead of 60-100's you can score 25/240's.



sideKahr said:


> ...that I will never power my home with solar.
> 
> I found an online PV calculator, dug out my electric bill, and discovered that I would need at least sixty 100-watt panels. That's all of my unobstructed roof, plus a mini-forest of stanchions on my lawn. Since I've never seen even ONE of these setups in my neighborhood, I have to assume that:
> 
> 1. solar power isn't viable where I live, or
> 2. the zoning authorities take a dim view of it.
> 
> Oh well, I'll turn my attentions to other projects; the world is full of them, I shan't be bored.


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## tirednurse

sideKahr said:


> I'm sure I could save some. My biggest consumers are air conditioning, heating, frost-free refrigeration, and I guess my wife's hair drier. I can't see us giving any of these up. I've already replaced most of my lighting with fluorescents and LEDs, I have a one small TV, a laptop, and occasionally used small appliances. I can't really see where I could cut back much. My problem is that southwestern PA is one of the cloudiest areas in the country.


you would learn to give up all of these if the power went out permanently. There are options for things that are necessary for survival. those that are not essential to sustain life are not really that important, except most of us are to lazy or to vain to go with out. The only one of these items you mentioned that I would be concerned about is finding an alternate heat source. If electric was your only option, I would be up nights worrying how to change that.


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## TacticalCanuck

Don't think all or nothing when it comes to solar. Think of a powered well and a single outlet. Or a well and a fridge/freezer. Just having clean water pumped into your home is all and of itself a massive leap over what most others will have in an emergency. Clean potable water and charged mobiles and a radio. I mean ya I would take that in a second. Of course I am a coffee addict so potable water was one of the firsts I looked into lol.


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## tinkerhell

Don't forget that many municipality won't allow free standing PV cells, you have to attach them to your house.

Unfortunately, that may significant increase the tax value of your house.


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## Piratesailor

Kauboy said:


> Honestly, if you truly looked at your usage, you'd likely see that you use a ton more electricity than necessary just because you can.
> Knock out all of the *stuff* you don't actually need to survive, and your use goes down considerably.
> 
> Look at all the devices/appliances that you believe are crucial to your survival and comfort, and then check their wattage ratings.
> You might be surprised to find that you can run most of them on a moderate system.


I think that's a good observation. I have a sailboat where the essentials are powered by solar. Mainly the water pressure, lights and refrigerator/freezer. Obviously the engine and generator are deisel. Point being it's just the essentials. The AC would not be an essential even though I'm in the Republic of Texas.

With the house, I have the perfect set up for southern exposure and panels but I only have a few. Those are not mouted to the house but protable and again, are used only for essentials. I can keep the fridge running and charge what needs to be charged along with keeping a light or two on for short periods. Essentially, that's all I'd need.

So I believe you'd probably be able to get away with much less than you realize by looking at just the critical items to sustain yourself.


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## 8301

TacticalCanuck said:


> Don't think all or nothing when it comes to solar. Think of a powered well and a single outlet. Or a well and a fridge/freezer. Just having clean water pumped into your home is all and of itself a massive leap over what most others will have in an emergency. Clean potable water and charged mobiles and a radio.


Agreed, My smaller 490 watt system made life much more tolerable when the power goes out and even ran the chest freezer (1000 watt inverter couldn't pull the large old fridge).


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## sideKahr

tirednurse said:


> you would learn to give up all of these if the power went out permanently. There are options for things that are necessary for survival. those that are not essential to sustain life are not really that important, except most of us are to lazy or to vain to go with out. *The only one of these items you mentioned that I would be concerned about is finding an alternate heat source. If electric was your only option, I would be up nights worrying how to change that*.


So would I. But I have 3 alternate heating methods, so I rest well.


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## Medic33

tirednurse said:


> you would learn to give up all of these if the power went out permanently. There are options for things that are necessary for survival. those that are not essential to sustain life are not really that important, except most of us are to lazy or to vain to go with out. The only one of these items you mentioned that I would be concerned about is finding an alternate heat source. If electric was your only option, I would be up nights worrying how to change that.


heat source? worried?
it's called wood stove woman!!!!! you can put one in or have some one do it anywere.
in a real survival situation with the grid down as stated before you do not need electricity the main item that you do need it for is refrigeration other wise just about everything we use it for is entertainment( before you say hot water, stoves, ect you don't need those thing on electric) and that is the real reason the What the hell do I do now I'm so board. That is why out on my BOL I make my own there is no grid out there and yah I have a satellite internet system with a wi-fi router that get used occasionally and one night we have a movie night were we watch a movie as a family thing. But everyone knows if it is a real end game scenario we would do with out.


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## Montana Rancher

sideKahr said:


> I'm sure I could save some. My biggest consumers are air conditioning, heating, frost-free refrigeration, and I guess my wife's hair drier. I can't see us giving any of these up. I've already replaced most of my lighting with fluorescents and LEDs, I have a one small TV, a laptop, and occasionally used small appliances. I can't really see where I could cut back much. My problem is that southwestern PA is one of the cloudiest areas in the country.


Ok, saying bullshit to you.

Prepping isn't about what you can't live without, it is about learning what you can live with. I am off the grid and running freezers and frigerators and 240v well pumps and my wives space heater in the morning. We have solar and a can do attitude, which is exactly the point!


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## sideKahr

Montana Rancher said:


> Ok, saying bullshit to you.
> 
> Prepping isn't about what you can't live without, it is about learning what you can live with. I am off the grid and running freezers and frigerators and 240v well pumps and my wives space heater in the morning. We have solar and a can do attitude, which is exactly the point!


You also have a lot of days with SUNSHINE, which is my point.


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## alterego

I started looking and the cost was in the 31 thousand range.

Then I started changing my light bulbs and appliances.

We have reduced our monthly average from 640 to 350 kwh.
Regardless of going to solar my consumers electric bill is 63 dollars for this month and we ran the air conditioning some.

It makes sense to reduce consumption no matter what.


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## Montana Rancher

Kauboy said:


> Honestly, if you truly looked at your usage, you'd likely see that you use a ton more electricity than necessary just because you can.
> Knock out all of the *stuff* you don't actually need to survive, and your use goes down considerably.
> 
> Look at all the devices/appliances that you believe are crucial to your survival and comfort, and then check their wattage ratings.
> You might be surprised to find that you can run most of them on a moderate system.





sideKahr said:


> ...that I will never power my home with solar.
> 
> I found an online PV calculator, dug out my electric bill, and discovered that I would need at least sixty 100-watt panels. That's all of my unobstructed roof, plus a mini-forest of stanchions on my lawn. Since I've never seen even ONE of these setups in my neighborhood, I have to assume that:
> 
> 1. solar power isn't viable where I live, or
> 2. the zoning authorities take a dim view of it.
> 
> Oh well, I'll turn my attentions to other projects; the world is full of them, I shan't be bored.


I understand your frustration, but a couple things to consider.

If you only have power for your freezers and you well pump, you can really easily do without everything else SHTF. Using this logic if you can put a 2K solar system with battery backup and a 3K 24v inverter you will be golden.

I have a 3700 watt system and am sending you this message with 2x chest freezers, a modern refrigerator, a 200 foot 240v well pump and my computer now talking to you totally powered off of solar.

When the SHTF I won't need my lights after dark, my clocks, my water softener, and the 20+ phone chargers/ipod chargers/etc.

So don't look at going off the grid, just look at keeping your food frozen, your water pumping and your batteries charged, a simple system that will be worth a $1,000,000,000 when the SHTF and cost you about 6K if you do it right.


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## kevincali

Reduce what you use, and get more energy efficient appliances. 

Instead of a large chest freezer, put away more canned goods (cans don't take money to store. Freezers use electricity), 

I switched to LED light bulbs, as small refrigerator that I could get with a full sized upper freezer, hand operated can opener, smaller TV (used to have a 36" Sony trinitron CRT type TV set. Got a 20" lcd type now for $20, and I can still see TV just fine) fans instead of AC (but I have a friend staying with me and they run the room AC, and I started running mine when it gets 100*+) and my electric bill jumped to $111 for ONE month! 

Open the windows on a cool day/evening and close in the morning. Let's cool air in at night, and if closed early enough in the morning, stays fairly cool. 

Replace old single pane windows with energy efficient windows. Fix and seal all cracks that lead to outside. Plant trees around your home to shade for summer (goes against Solar Power I know, but if you can shade your home, then have the solar panels elsewhere on the property.)

To me, prepping isn't about living without. It's about living within my means, while making sure I have enough (of anything). Just because you're a prepper, doesn't mean you have to sit in an isolated, dark, miserably hot or cold cabin in the middle of nowhere. You can have all the creature comforts you want. You just have to find ways to accomplish them (producing your own power for fridge/AC/TV, etc.)


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## Montana Rancher

Kauboy said:


> Honestly, if you truly looked at your usage, you'd likely see that you use a ton more electricity than necessary just because you can.
> Knock out all of the *stuff* you don't actually need to survive, and your use goes down considerably.
> 
> Look at all the devices/appliances that you believe are crucial to your survival and comfort, and then check their wattage ratings.
> You might be surprised to find that you can run most of them on a moderate system.


Exactly what I am saying Kevin except I am suggesting producing power, off the grid and using it to power what you need. It is about conservation and it is also about production outside the grid. You need both conservation and production to be independent.



kevincali said:


> Reduce what you use, and get more energy efficient appliances.
> 
> Instead of a large chest freezer, put away more canned goods (cans don't take money to store. Freezers use electricity),
> 
> I switched to LED light bulbs, as small refrigerator that I could get with a full sized upper freezer, hand operated can opener, smaller TV (used to have a 36" Sony trinitron CRT type TV set. Got a 20" lcd type now for $20, and I can still see TV just fine) fans instead of AC (but I have a friend staying with me and they run the room AC, and I started running mine when it gets 100*+) and my electric bill jumped to $111 for ONE month!
> 
> Open the windows on a cool day/evening and close in the morning. Let's cool air in at night, and if closed early enough in the morning, stays fairly cool.
> 
> Replace old single pane windows with energy efficient windows. Fix and seal all cracks that lead to outside. Plant trees around your home to shade for summer (goes against Solar Power I know, but if you can shade your home, then have the solar panels elsewhere on the property.)
> 
> To me, prepping isn't about living without. It's about living within my means, while making sure I have enough (of anything). Just because you're a prepper, doesn't mean you have to sit in an isolated, dark, miserably hot or cold cabin in the middle of nowhere. You can have all the creature comforts you want. You just have to find ways to accomplish them (producing your own power for fridge/AC/TV, etc.)


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## tirednurse

Medic33 said:


> heat source? worried?
> it's called wood stove woman!!!!! you can put one in or have some one do it anywere.
> in a real survival situation with the grid down as stated before you do not need electricity the main item that you do need it for is refrigeration other wise just about everything we use it for is entertainment( before you say hot water, stoves, ect you don't need those thing on electric) and that is the real reason the What the hell do I do now I'm so board. That is why out on my BOL I make my own there is no grid out there and yah I have a satellite internet system with a wi-fi router that get used occasionally and one night we have a movie night were we watch a movie as a family thing. But everyone knows if it is a real end game scenario we would do with out.


Listen ASS WIPE. Don't try to put me down and treat me like I'm stupid. I am a WOMAN and proud of it. I didn't say I had a problem. this is not my thread. I actually do have wood heat which I have also tweaked to heat my water also. I have a wood stove in my garage and one in the barn. I am also putting one in the bunk house I am building now. I have an unlimited supply of fire wood.
However, not every one is as fortunate. You for instance have no brain. Others are not able to burn wood or because of where they live are not able to even install one or obtain the fire wood. Get your head out of your ass and maybe you would realize that there could be alternatives other that wood heat. Why don't you go ahead and try to offer a different solution with out trying to insult someone.


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