# 10 Rules for Dealing with Police



## Sockpuppet

Deleted.


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## Arklatex

Whatever you do, don't make any sudden moves for your insurance!


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## Inor

Inor's #1 rule for dealing with police: Don't, whenever possible. I give them a wide berth and they seem to give me a wide berth. Everybody is happier that way.


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## Ragnarök

and for heavens sake keep your hands out of your pockets when being questioned. I did that when I was young and got yelled at for it..nervous habit :roll:

Now a days I wouldn't do that because I'm older and know better...any kids reading.. this is aimed at you.


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## Chipper

Shoot first. From what I've seen lately this may be the best route. Before you end up shot dead reaching for your insurance or wallet on command. They are making it impossible for anyone to comply without risking great bodily harm. 

Just getting stopped for a stupid seat belt violation could end up in a life or death situation. Depending if the officer didn't take his PSD meds.


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## shotlady

I don't seemed to get hasseled by the man. I enjoy being profiled as middle class middle aged chick. if they come round they are scratching to get away cause i'll chatter their ****ing ears off about purses, cashmere, shoes, their mommas. being safe... I do sit on the police advisory board and enjoy a very easy relationship with officers. my energy doesn't suggest anything but friendliness and some one you may want to get away from quickly. 

im not stupid  men don't want to talk about purses and sweaters. not even with big titted broads. they always seem to "need to go"


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## Jeep

Pulled over, keep your hands on the wheel. Say yes sir, advise when reaching for anything. Do not say Huh. If you have big tits use them to your advantage, and I may start talking about purses now.


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## shotlady

know your Louis Vuitton, coach and Michael Kors stuff. men DO NOT WANT to talk about this shit. not one bit.


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## csi-tech

From a Police perspective I have always liked this video. It behooves all of us to know our rights. I'm still going to get consent from idiots who are holding dope though. They are chumps.


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## Mad Trapper

csi-tech said:


> From a Police perspective I have always liked this video. It behooves all of us to know our rights. I'm still going to get consent from idiots who are holding dope though. They are chumps.


My Mother taught me NOT to TALK to STRANGERS, without a GOOD Lawyer. (there are some).

And YOU are the STRANGEST SON OF BITCH I've ever seen.


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## Denton

Inor said:


> Inor's #1 rule for dealing with police: Don't, whenever possible. I give them a wide berth and they seem to give me a wide berth. Everybody is happier that way.


Yup. As I tell my son, do not make yourself a target. If that means going five under the speed limit just to make sure, do it.


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## Arklatex

shotlady said:


> know your Louis Vuitton, coach and Michael Kors stuff. men DO NOT WANT to talk about this shit. not one bit.


I bet even female cops don't want to talk about that shit. That's a good tactic. Hehe.


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## bigwheel

I rarely bump into any cops on an official basis (knock on wood) since I try to obey the law but occasionally things happen. I try to be respectful and not make any sudden movements. Hands on the wheel and dome light on at night. There are a bunch of highly scared rookies out there and they have guns.


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## dannydefense

Denton said:


> Yup. As I tell my son, do not make yourself a target. If that means going five under the speed limit just to make sure, do it.


You're one of those. If I ever catch you in the far right lane, I will unleash my road rage on you.

Driving under the limit, against the flow of traffic, is as dangerous as driving twice as fast as every one else. Also, if you see a police vehicle and you slam on the brakes even though you were already doing the limit, you have no idea how much I want to do evil horrible things to you.

I will happily pass any officer driving slower than the limit. They cannot pull me over for it, and I'm not going to impede traffic behind me.


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## Eagles700LvL

I have a buddy who is a Philadelphia police officer.

With regard to being pulled over he always has suggested to me that if you get pulled over roll down all your windows, turn the dome light on (if night), turn the car off and put the keys on the dashboard and keep you hands on the wheel. When asked for your registration and insurance tell the officer that you are reaching into <whatever> to get what was requested.

For some reason, I guess the fear of people running off, they seem to appreciate the keys on the dash the most.

I've been pulled over 4 times in the last 10 years. All 4 times the officer told me they appreciated the actions I took before they got to the window.

3 warnings, 1 fixit ticket along with the officer's personal cell (which I did not request, another story).


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## Denton

dannydefense said:


> You're one of those. If I ever catch you in the far right lane, I will unleash my road rage on you.
> 
> Driving under the limit, against the flow of traffic, is as dangerous as driving twice as fast as every one else. Also, if you see a police vehicle and you slam on the brakes even though you were already doing the limit, you have no idea how much I want to do evil horrible things to you.
> 
> I will happily pass any officer driving slower than the limit. They cannot pull me over for it, and I'm not going to impede traffic behind me.


Yes, I do the speed limit or five below, and yes, I am in the far right lane. The far right lane is the proper lane. Slower traffic keep right. Keep right except to pass. You know the signs.

Now that I have said that, I will tell the rest of the story. I also speed. When I speed, I mean I _speed_. Even then, I stay in the right lane except to pass. So, there! 

Unleash your road rage on me, pal! Bring it! DO IT!! All of my vehicles are old. Another dent or mar will be nothing more than a battle scar! :lol:


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## dannydefense

Eagles700LvL said:


> With regard to being pulled over he always has suggested to me that if you get pulled over roll down all your windows, turn the dome light on (if night), turn the car off and put the keys on the dashboard and keep you hands on the wheel. When asked for your registration and insurance tell the officer that you are reaching into <whatever> to get what was requested.


I like the Hunter S. Thompson method. Speed up considerably, but only because you need to find a safe spot to stop, and quickly. Usually this spot will be a mile or two farther up the road, so you need to get there as fast as you can. When you pull over, keep the engine on and idle it fairly high, just in case you need to get out of the way quickly. When you finally determine everything is safe, turn off the car, exit, and meet the officer as they are exiting their own vehicle.


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## dannydefense

Denton said:


> Yes, I do the speed limit or five below, and yes, I am in the far right lane. The far right lane is the proper lane. Slower traffic keep right. Keep right except to pass. You know the signs.
> 
> Now that I have said that, I will tell the rest of the story. I also speed. When I speed, I mean I _speed_. Even then, I stay in the right lane except to pass. So, there!
> 
> Unleash your road rage on me, pal! Bring it! DO IT!! All of my vehicles are old. Another dent or mar will be nothing more than a battle scar! :lol:


Son. of. a. bitch. I meant the far left lane. That would explain why I get lost all the time.


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## bigwheel

dannydefense said:


> I like the Hunter S. Thompson method. Speed up considerably, but only because you need to find a safe spot to stop, and quickly. Usually this spot will be a mile or two farther up the road, so you need to get there as fast as you can. When you pull over, keep the engine on and idle it fairly high, just in case you need to get out of the way quickly. When you finally determine everything is safe, turn off the car, exit, and meet the officer as they are exiting their own vehicle.


No no on exiting the vehicle. That gives them a real itchy trigger finger. Stay in the car until and if they ask you to step out. Driving 5 miles under the speed limit is a clue for a drunk driver and might get you stopped. A few miles over or right on the money is better. Stay out of the left lane as much as you can. That is where you will meet a drunk guest worker going the wrong way on a four lane because he thinks he is in the right lane of a two lane. Bunch of bad old gut slinging wrecks caused by that.


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## Denton

bigwheel said:


> No no on exiting the vehicle. That gives them a real itchy trigger finger. Stay in the car until and if they ask you to step out. Driving 5 miles under the speed limit is a clue for a drunk driver and might get you stopped. A few miles over or right on the money is better. Stay out of the left lane as much as you can. That is where you will meet a drunk guest worker going the wrong way on a four lane because he thinks he is in the right lane of a two lane. Bunch of bad old gut slinging wrecks caused by that.


Absolutely! The days of getting out of the vehicle are long, long gone. If things go nicely, you will hear a voice telling you to get back inside your vehicle with your hands visible.

Society has changed and so have the cops.


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## dannydefense

bigwheel said:


> No no on exiting the vehicle. That gives them a real itchy trigger finger. Stay in the car until and if they ask you to step out. Driving 5 miles under the speed limit is a clue for a drunk driver and might get you stopped. A few miles over or right on the money is better. Stay out of the left lane as much as you can. That is where you will meet a drunk guest worker going the wrong way on a four lane because he thinks he is in the right lane of a two lane. Bunch of bad old gut slinging wrecks caused by that.


I have a feeling you might have missed the subtle undertones of my post, starting with the speeding away from a pursuing police officer.


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## Denton

dannydefense said:


> I have a feeling you might have missed the subtle undertones of my post, starting with the speeding away from a pursuing police officer.


That reminds me of an old joke...

A senior citizen drove his new Corvette convertible out of the dealership. Taking off down the road, he floored it to 80 mph, enjoying the wind blowing through what little hair he had left.

'Amazing,' he thought, pushing down the pedal even more. Looking in his rear view mirror, he saw a state trooper behind him, lights flashing, and siren blaring. He floored it to 100 mph, then 110, then 120 . . .

Suddenly he thought, 'What am I doing? I'm too old for this!' and pulled over to await the trooper's arrival.

Pulling in behind him, the trooper walked up to the Corvette, looked at his watch and said, 'Sir, my shift ends in 30 minutes. Today is Friday. If you can give me a reason for speeding that I've never heard before, I'll let you go.'

The old gentleman paused, then said, 'Two years ago, my wife ran off with a State Trooper. I thought you were bringing her back.'

'You have a good day sir,' replied the trooper.


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## PossumPie

I once said I had explosive diarrhea...didn't work.


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## bigwheel

Good answers on that. I always like the one where they are speeding because they are running low on gas and trying to get to the gas station quick before they run out. Seems like either the 3 Stooges or Abbot and Costello came up with that one.


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## Jeep

If, you speed up you speed me up. Do not expect a pleasant response from the station or bright place you drive to. YOUR MINE


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## TG

Police officers in US are sweet little gentle bunnies compared to their counterparts in Russia, you guys are lucky. 

Just shut up, sit straight, speak only if you are being spoken to and smile, that's what I do.


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## TG

BTW, I love cops


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## Arklatex

I tried the "drive on a little farther until you get to a safe place" thing once. That was one pissed off cop. It was a slow speed chase that lasted less than a mile. I thought I was doing us both a favor, he treated me like I was osama. Never again...


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## Jeep

There are these situations where single women get targeted by wannabe's and yes pull over to a location if you can. But do not increase your speed. We are trained to an extent and then there is primal overdrive. In L.A. you run your dun


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## TG

Sockpuppet said:


> Uh hu. You're one of those.


Lots of family members in police force (Ukraine).. What does the " Uh hu. You're one of those" mean?


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## Smitty901

Avoid contact with them
If you must interact say as little as possible
Never volunteered any information about your self
Never forget, they are not there to protect you ,they are there to enforce an agenda.


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## TG

Sockpuppet said:


> Badge Bunnies.


I don't understand a lot of American slang, I don't know what you just said.. I respect what cops do and sacrifice a lot every day, at least in Ukraine.


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## Denton

TorontoGal said:


> I don't understand a lot of American slang, I don't know what you just said.. I respect what cops do and sacrifice a lot every day, at least in Ukraine.


Do they scarf down donuts and gulp coffee by the gallon in Ukraine, too?

I keep a box of donuts in the car, in case I see blue lights come on in the rear view mirror. Once I know I am the target vehicle, I toss the box of Krispy Kreme donuts out the window and continue on my way. Even if the cop doesn't stop and grab the donuts, I am at the house before he finally decides I am priority over the donuts.

Escape and evasion tactics are very important.


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## Zed

In india...only one rule to deal with police..
Give them money...
India = most corrupt country


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## SDF880

Got pulled over at 1AM awhile back hands on wheel inside light on. I gave patrolman my license and CCW license. He came back
with a warning for (LOL) not signaling soon enough when turning! It was a Friday night I'm sure he was looking for DUI and not someone
coming home from work. He asked me what I was carrying and I had 2 45's in a carry bag next to me on the seat and I told him so and he says 
"very good" and walked to his car.


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## TG

Denton said:


> Do they scarf down donuts and gulp coffee by the gallon in Ukraine, too?.


Actually no, they don't lol


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## TG

Sockpuppet said:


> Google: Badge Bunny
> 
> Google: Badge Bunnies
> 
> Google: Holster Sniffer


Ok that's stupid


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## Arklatex

Lol at holster sniffer. Never heard that one.


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## TG

In both, Russia and Ukraine, most drivers have dashboard cameras, which helps keep people honest, some cops in Eastern Europe would stop people and ask for money, but things have improved along with economy.

Dashboard cams are also a great way to capture unexpected things


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## big paul

haven't had to speak to a policeman for over 15 years now, where I live the police stations are all part time so actually finding a police officer is not easy, the only time I actually see a policeman is when they are flying through in their police cars or on a "shout". my area is very rural, very quiet and virtually crime free, everyone knows everyone else and where they live so strangers stick out like a sore thumb. last real crime we had was over 3 years ago and was a gang from outside the area and they used a stolen forklift to remove the local ATM, another time someone stole a load of cigarettes and alcohol from the local filling station, again not locals.


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## csi-tech

Badge bunnies and holster sniffers fill a very important role in society. Let us not cast aspersions. The lowly donut is also worthy of more recognition than it gets. In the world of pastry the donut is America's choice. I cannot speak for cops in the Ukraine, but here in the USA we appreciate intoxicated, toothless girls of less than stellar repute and donuts.............and coffee.


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## TG

csi-tech said:


> Badge bunnies and holster sniffers fill a very important role in society. Let us not cast aspersions. The lowly donut is also worthy of more recognition than it gets. In the world of pastry the donut is America's choice. I cannot speak for cops in the Ukraine, but here in the USA we appreciate intoxicated, toothless girls of less than stellar repute and donuts.............and coffee.


Ukraine has her share of crazies


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## Prepadoodle

I ask them why they pulled me over, and before they can respond, say, "I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I have the greatest respect for the police, my dad was a cop killed in the line of duty."

Unless you are actually dragging a body behind your car, they usually let you go.

In the rare cases this doesn't work, you can always say, "You're a public servant, go fetch me a glass of water before I get pissed off and don't want it." (This never works either, but can be fun)


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## bigwheel

Sockpuppet said:


> Badge Bunnies.


Is that the same as a Fender Lizzard? lol


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## csi-tech

Wow Preppadoodle that is pretty harsh. I would recommend: "I understand I was speeding Officer, Yes I was doing 75 in a 55 MPH Zone. I knew I was violating the law and I graciously and willingly accept your citation. I accept responsibility for my actions because I am an honorable person. Where do I sign?"

Or: "Good morning Officer, I understand that by signing this ticket I am not admitting guilt. I do not concur with your assessment that I was speeding and in violation of the law. It is my intention to exercise my right to due process and challenge your contention in a court of law."

If these don't help, try this:


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## just mike

All I know is that it really pisses them of when you say " I'm sorry officer I do not consent to you searching my car". And it really, really, really pisses them off when they clock you at 134mph in a 65. That one cost me almost 1,000.00 and a trip to the pokey. I decided shortly after that I should be driving something other than an Olds 442 with a 455ci engine.


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## csi-tech

I don't get pissed off if people refuse consent. They have every right to. 

I owned a 1969 Hurst/Olds when I first became a cop. It was #104 off the assembly line and I bought it from the original owner. It had the QE code 455ci that Hurst installed along with the mailbox hood scoop, rear deck spoiler, H/O badges, Firefrost gold pinstriping and head rests, Dual gate shifter, racing mirrors and name badge on the glove box door. I got stopped several times in that car but never for speeding. I outran a Virginia State Trooper in it before I became a cop though. That thing would haul the mail!


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## Denton

just mike said:


> All I know is that it really pisses them of when you say " I'm sorry officer I do not consent to you searching my car". And it really, really, really pisses them off when they clock you at 134mph in a 65. That one cost me almost 1,000.00 and a trip to the pokey. I decided shortly after that I should be driving something other than an Olds 442 with a 455ci engine.


I pulled over for the CHP while heading to Reno, one afternoon. Seems their Cessna 152 was having trouble with the pursuit. Rather than being hauled off, I got ticketed for 70 in a 55. Luckily for me, the Chipper didn't want to deal with me so close to get-off time.

The one and only time I hit 145 on a motorcycle. I am happy to say I lived to get wiser.


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## TG

As a foreigner with an accent that doesn't sound French, I'm very careful to follow all rules, I've only been pulled over once, they were checking random people's breath for alcohol (spot checks?).


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## Will2

What I've found that the #1 thing to put cops on unease is refuse to provide your name or ID. 
1. Ask what they are engaging you about.
2. Ask if you are being detained when asked for ID
3. If they say they are detaining you, as for their badge or employee number name etc..
4. If they refuse to provide you their ID, refuse to provide your ID
5. This will cause them to go into PHYSICAL MODE and start insulting you or atleast being harsh with you.
6. Failure to provide an ID is the #1 cause for cops to get ENGAGED, as it stops them from creating a police report that is linked to you - regardless of whether or not you actually committed a criminal act, it can still be used to track you or add to national or other intelligence banks or be used to profile or create a case against you even if you are completely innocent of any wrong doing.

If they refuse to provide id this is normally a code of conduct issue, police refuse to provide their ID quite commonly for any random engagements where they have been rough or broken some rule. 

If you want to quickly resolve an issue give your ID (you have emergency id right?). If you think the cops are up to no good you can refuse but realize that they may take you to the station to ID you. If it doesn't bring you closer to your travel destination refusal of ID is probablly the #1 basic thing to consider when dealing with cops, it is the #1 thing to put them from pushy to aggressive and ready to do a violent takedown, as they will keep pushing until they get it, even if you havn't broken the law. Simply providing your name is probably not going to be enough. 


#2 have your cell phone on and recording if possible. A record of any and all police involvement may protect you or help you out if you are actually charged with something. If possible have two devices. One you can hold and another that is not easily noticed. If possible have these stream online in real time.


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## Smitty901

TorontoGal said:


> As a foreigner with an accent that doesn't sound French, I'm very careful to follow all rules, I've only been pulled over once, they were checking random people's breath for alcohol (spot checks?).


 An act that should not be allowed without probable cause in this country. It is another curtain they use claiming public safety as way to take your rights. Spot checks are a crime.


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## TG

This was in Canada, not US.
I don't drink and drive, have nothing to hide and will stop if asked and not be a smart ass.


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## Will2

basically in Canada if it is in the public interest in the search can be done however rides checks are a special case. it is effectively a form of harassment but basically it was effective so it was ok

at face value though it is very unconstitutional
http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/614/index.do

some judge thought it was working good so who cares

"The authority also has been justified by this Court as a prescription of the common law
"

stops are deemed common law even if there's no reason to stop them. this effectively then means police can pull over anybody for any or no reason
the caveat. "Once stopped the only questions that may justifiably be asked are those related to driving offences."

The primary aim of check stop programs, which result in the arbitrary detention of motorists, is to check for sobriety, licences, ownership, insurance and the mechanical fitness of cars. The police use of check stops should not be extended beyond these aims. Random stop programs must not be turned into a means of either conducting an unfounded general inquisition or an unreasonable search."


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## csi-tech

Sockpuppet said:


> I don't doubt it. You don't come off as such, even if it is online.
> 
> Of course, you are expecting reasonable behavior from the police......and I would suspect that you just wouldn't submit to a strip search.....despite having nothing to hide.


Police Officers will never ask you to submit to a strip search on the roadside. If they suspect that you are concealing a weapon, they will have an officer of your sex conduct a pat down for a specific item. Strip searches are usually conducted at the penal facility, cavity searches with a warrant in a hospital by doctors.


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## Jeep

I will here by dicredit Will, his preponderance of crap and the amount of basic contact with law enforcement and his WILL to be a bodyguard. 

As a Los Angeles County Deputy we were taught to call everyone Sir, or Ma'am. This came after a ration of shit But it doeasn't matter. When the lights come on behind you, are you prepared for a gunfight for running a light. 

I dare you get out and speak your mind. You will find your mind wandering semi conscious in jail.


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## TG

Sockpuppet said:


> I don't doubt it. You don't come off as such, even if it is online.
> 
> Of course, you are expecting reasonable behavior from the police......and I would suspect that you just wouldn't submit to a strip search.....despite having nothing to hide.


haha @ strip search :lol:


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## bigwheel

Will said:


> What I've found that the #1 thing to put cops on unease is refuse to provide your name or ID.
> 1. Ask what they are engaging you about.
> 2. Ask if you are being detained when asked for ID
> 3. If they say they are detaining you, as for their badge or employee number name etc..
> 4. If they refuse to provide you their ID, refuse to provide your ID
> 5. This will cause them to go into PHYSICAL MODE and start insulting you or atleast being harsh with you.
> 6. Failure to provide an ID is the #1 cause for cops to get ENGAGED, as it stops them from creating a police report that is linked to you - regardless of whether or not you actually committed a criminal act, it can still be used to track you or add to national or other intelligence banks or be used to profile or create a case against you even if you are completely innocent of any wrong doing.
> 
> If they refuse to provide id this is normally a code of conduct issue, police refuse to provide their ID quite commonly for any random engagements where they have been rough or broken some rule.
> 
> If you want to quickly resolve an issue give your ID (you have emergency id right?). If you think the cops are up to no good you can refuse but realize that they may take you to the station to ID you. If it doesn't bring you closer to your travel destination refusal of ID is probablly the #1 basic thing to consider when dealing with cops, it is the #1 thing to put them from pushy to aggressive and ready to do a violent takedown, as they will keep pushing until they get it, even if you havn't broken the law. Simply providing your name is probably not going to be enough.
> 
> #2 have your cell phone on and recording if possible. A record of any and all police involvement may protect you or help you out if you are actually charged with something. If possible have two devices. One you can hold and another that is not easily noticed. If possible have these stream online in real time.


Got a good recipe for going to jail being cooked up right here. Least in Texas. As the man said its called failure/refusal to identify. No requirement for probable cause to put the requirement into effect. The offense is bumped up a notch on the penalty scale if the alleged perp happens to be wanted.


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## Will2

bigwheel said:


> Got a good recipe for going to jail being cooked up right here. Least in Texas. As the man said its called failure/refusal to identify. No requirement for probable cause to put the requirement into effect. The offense is bumped up a notch on the penalty scale if the alleged perp happens to be wanted.


that would be your state's lawsits not the same here.

in Canada you have the right to request a police offcers IDyou're also not required to provide any ID but if you fail to provide ID then you can be detained until they can ascertain your identityhowever if detained for any reason you have the right to legal counsel

the u.s hasn't decided this at a federal level

Stop and identify statutes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this raises another good point. Know your local laws

it appears as though the the u.s SC decided that it's only name disclosure not production of ID

Here
the only people that are required to produce ID are private investigators security guards police individuals don't have requirements produce ID only give their name. (exception while driving on a highway you may be required to produce your drivers license and insurance) note: this may also extend to Highway Traffic Act offenses while not in a vehicle if you have a license if you don't have a license then it's not applicable but if you have a license you may still be hit with highway traffic offences even though you're not driving oddly enough

oddly you can ask anybody if they are a private investigator and they have to identify themselves as one if they are

usually the government and special professions must produce ID when asked not regular people

"Section 10 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms specifies rights upon arrest or detention, including the rights to consult a lawyer and the right to habeas corpus. "

you can be stopped if you are you can request legal counsel


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## csi-tech

Sockpuppet....Nevermind.......just forget it.


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## bigwheel

Not sure about foreign countries..but in the United States of Texas the only legal obligation a cop has to identify themselves is to prominently display their "badge of office." In addition most agencies have rules and regulations requiring that upon request they must also give their name..ID or badge number and the agency they represent.


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## bigwheel

csi-tech said:


> Police Officers will never ask you to submit to a strip search on the roadside. If they suspect that you are concealing a weapon, they will have an officer of your sex conduct a pat down for a specific item. Strip searches are usually conducted at the penal facility, cavity searches with a warrant in a hospital by doctors.


Around these parts pat downs of the opposite gender are allowed but it best to not touch the private areas. All kinds of little techniques to shake out a possible weapon or contraband without getting overly exuberant.


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## Smitty901

We have NO requirement to produce an ID to LE in Wisconsin except if you are conceal carrying. Not even required if you open carry. Many LE over step their position by trying to force you to..
DO not ever produce and ID to LE unless it is a case where the Law requires it. Any time you interact with LE you are putting your future at risk. There will be a report you were stop by LE and you will never have a chance to defend your self against, having be accused of doing wrong. It will then be used against you latter.
There is no such thing as a harmless encounter with LE.


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## bigwheel

Romans 13:3-5King James Version (KJV)

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.


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## Denton

bigwheel said:


> Romans 13:3-5King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
> 
> 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
> 
> 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.


I wonder if Hitler lifted those verses out of the Bible - before he went totally anti-Christian.

An officer who lives up to the oath he took certainly fits that description, as well does a government that fits the description illustrated in those verses.


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## Smitty901

This is how contact with LE can destroy your life even when you have done nothing wrong. And bet you tail they do not care one bit.
Milwaukee . LE COP and mayor set up a deal to allow pimps and gang drug dealers to operate in an are around 27th and National. The deal was not until after dark and had to be off the streets one hour before school bus run. This went on for some time. The Milwaukee Domes are one block off this location and they had enough of this running visitors off so LE set up stings.
COP and Mayor made it clear No hookers or dealers were to be arrested only customers. Our office is near there and some of our people come in a 0430. Many were stopped on the way into work. What are you doing here held and question. When they said they were going to work LE joke we have heard that before. Every stopped was logged and person name put on a list. Some were stopped many times. The mayor made a big deal out of how many stops they made. A local news agency got a hold of the records and made the public. Inside tip from LE.
Example of what happen to a lot of people. John XXX detained and question by police 3 times around 430 am in connection with solicitation of sex and drugs. All John xxx was doing was going to work. He had to face his family and everyone he knew.
These stops were made with No probable cause other than they were white driving in area known of drugs a hookers. It does not madder if you done nothing wrong.
Those people for the rest of their life have this hanging when any LE or other agency dose a back round check on them.
Never make the mistake of thinking any conversation with LE is harmless it is not. Random stops still show up as you were suspected of something wrong.
West Alias COP requires both indoor ranges in his area to supply him with Name time and weapon used of every person that visits the range. If they refuse he has his officers go after them. He keeps all of this data forever. He has stated he can do what ever he wants with it.


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## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> An arrest does not equal a conviction. There are also remedies available to anyone who's rights are violated under color of law.
> 
> You also have every right to work within the system to change the law. If you don't care enough to do such, you are every bit as guilty as those who violate the same.


Here's what I do not like about what you are saying.

You are suggesting that one need enter the jurisdiction of that which is not constitutional and work to change it. I say, one need not do that. One only need to conduct one's life in accordance to the laws of nature and nature's God. It is the responsibility of the government, the courts and the _officers_ to not interfere or make contact with citizens who are conducting themselves in such manner.

It is not my responsibility to sort through all statutes and determine if each and every one of them are constitutional, nor is it my responsibility to do a thing about any of the statutes that are on the books. A legislative body can pass all the silly statutes they want, departments can write all the policies and procedures they want, and agencies can do the same as well. The problem lies when agents of the courts throw their oath of office to the wind, make contact with citizens and attempt to enforce these statutes, codes and regulations upon the citizenry.

To suggest I am to "fight city hall" so that an officer doesn't have to face the painful decision of ignoring statutes that violate the laws of nature and nature's God and interferes with free men conducting their lives in accordance with those same laws, laws upon which this nation was founded, is akin to certain people of the 1940's standing on the excuse that they were only following orders.


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## Denton

Oh, and while you are correct that an arrest does not equal a conviction, one must be extremely callous to deny the fact that it adversely effects the citizen, costs money, places a blight on his good name and interferes with his conducting his life as he intended.


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## bigwheel

Sorry some of yall have had such bad experiences with cops. I liken the profession to most other professions involving humans. Most of them are average folks trying to do a good job at what they are paid to do. A certain small percentage are mentally unstable or have criminal intent. Think as a whole they are more trustworthy than lawyers surely..preachers..teachers and used car salesmen most likely. In fact a national poll conducted a few years back ranked them on a par with the family doctor as a person they could trust to do the right thing. Guess a person who has fear..anger and disdain for their talents can always call a hippy or other left wing liberal to help in time of need.


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## Denton

Sockpuppet, please forgive me for not being all that board savvy. I'm not good at breaking parsing and quoting as you did; I prefer discussing the topic rather than splitting up sentences. This being the case, I hope this does not come across as being too convoluted. My apologies if it does.

First, the quotation from Genesis.


> How about this. Genesis 4:9.
> 
> And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?


Where are you going with this? Yes, Cain violated the laws of nature and nature's God. He committed murder. God rendered judgment on Cain.

Or, are you suggesting that the law enforcement community is the keeper of "brothers" and all statutes passed are of equal righteousness and that they should be enforced with equal vigor?

Next, you place the blame on those passing unconstitutional statutes and suggest we should boot them out of office. I agree with this notion, but that does not relieve the police officer of his responsibility of not violating his oath of office by attempting to enforce unconstitutional statutes, and this also does not relieve the courts of their responsibilities, either. The supreme court even made this quite clear.

Your next response sidesteps what I stated, again.

Now, to your last response to what I said.
Let's say you place responsibility on the legislative body and police procedures and violate a citizen's rights in the process. In response, that citizen hits you with a Title 42 suit and places a lien on everything you own, tangible and intangible, up to and including your signature. Your life is now changed in a very negative way. Now, you have serious concerns about your financial future as well as the future your family will face. That you are accompanied by all the rest who were a part of violating that man's rights by violating your oath of office makes no difference. You are still facing some seriously bad times. Now, you can empathize with that citizen who you would tell an arrest is not the same as a conviction.


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## Smitty901

Sockpuppet said:


> An arrest does not equal a conviction. There are also remedies available to anyone who's rights are violated under color of law.
> 
> You also have every right to work within the system to change the law. If you don't care enough to do such, you are every bit as guilty as those who violate the same.


 Day dreaming. convicted or not you are stuck with it the rest of your life.
If the law says you are not required to show an ID and it does . The Supreme court has upheld it. The LE has No right to try and force it. When I or anyone else tells a LEO I do not wish to speak with you they must allow to go unless they make a legal arrest. To bad LE don't see it that way.
I repeat never ever speak with a LEO . Even as a witness to a crime you can become a target. LE today is not what it once was.


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## Smitty901

A bar owner ME. In a bar that had been run down and should have been closed down. Purchased by me and cleaned up total change in customers when reopened.
Dealers that had sold there in the past come and try to set up shop. I provide police a video tape and witnesses. They investigate me. Issue citation to me for the drug dealing going on in my bar. List me as a public nuances . I am then remind to mind my own business. Also after that 3 times a week LE provided minors ID and tried to trick bartenders into serving them.
That is LEO today. It was latter explained to me that in the eyes of LE if you report a crime all you are doing is trying to get LE to take out you competition for you.


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## Denton

Smitty901 said:


> Day dreaming. convicted or not you are stuck with it the rest of your life.
> If the law says you are not required to show an ID and it does . The Supreme court has upheld it. The LE has No right to try and force it. When I or anyone else tells a LEO I do not wish to speak with you they must allow to go unless they make a legal arrest. To bad LE don't see it that way.
> I repeat never ever speak with a LEO . Even as a witness to a crime you can become a target. LE today is not what it once was.


Absolutely correct. Additionally, neither is this society. Ask any random countryman what "laws of nature and nature's God" is and you'll get a pretty good idea where we are at, today. If you want to get more vexed, as him about the Magna Carta what what it meant to the evolution of Western law and governance.

This nation has become a lawless one, and I am not referring to violations of statutes or commercial codes. Furthermore, many of our countrymen, those who have no idea Who gave us our rights as well as created Law, believe they have rights that do not exist. All the while, they are unwilling to accept the responsibilities that accompany our rights.

Now, are police officers grown in test tubes? Do they come from some magical place called Cop World? Nope, they come from our ranks. It would be lunacy to expect your average cop to be any better than his neighbor. What is the difference between the two? One went to police academy. Does academy teach the cadet about those things which every citizen should already know? Nope. It teaches him how to do as he is told. Then, he takes an oath to protect something he does not understand.

So, the cop takes an oath to defend something he doesn't understand, so he can only assume that department procedures and any statute passed by elected politicians are worthy of enforcement.

Do I hate the cop? Do I blame them? No. I blame us all. We, not any particular entity, are responsible for allowing the nation to become as it is, whether we are discussing police departments, governments at all jurisdictions, or the state of our nation as a whole. We, the People, have become lawless in the eyes of the Creator.


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## Denton

> None of the above. I hold that everyone holds an obligation to their fellow man. We may or may not fight for ourselves to change the law, but we should fight for liberty for those among us.


Ah, I don't read that verse as meaning that at all, but OK. Still, that gives the law enforcement even more reason to ignore statutes that are not constitutional. That is the first line of defense, the blue line that should stand between the citizenry and a government that is attempting to deny us our unalienable rights.



> Agreed. The oath is to uphold the Constitution of both the United States and the Constitution of the state, not the government, nor the unlawful orders from the temporary occupants of authority over him. As stated before, he unconstitutional laws are not so much the problem, as those who would enforce them upon us.


Agreed.



> I certainly can empathize with an innocent person being charged, even if not brought to trial, never mind being found guilty. However, this is the only system we have, and I have yet to find a better one in force today. If someone has a better way, I'm open to it.....and will fight with you....within the system and until the system no longer functions.....to have such instituted.


Huh? Is this some way of excusing officers who use unconstitutional means and enforce unconstitutional statutes?

Yes, a system was created, but another system has been laid on top of that. The overlying system works outside of the constitutional system. That does not mean that citizens have to abide by the overlying one, and law enforcement officers do not have to enforce them. As a matter of fact, I bristle at the term, "law enforcement."

How about waiting for an injured party fill out, sign and swear to an affidavit and let that be affixed to an arrest warrant before making contact with a citizen before involving oneself with a misdemeanor, but taking action when a felony is personally witnessed? There were days when this was understood; what made today different? Today is different because the "system" detached itself from the constitution and the laws of nature and nature's God upon which our constitution and judicial system were founded. Did this change the laws of nature, and did nature's God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, change? Absolutely not. Walk within those laws and with the Creator of those laws, and you are in accord with the vision of the founders of this nation. In doing so, We, The People, and They, the Peace Officers, are, in fact, fighting City Hall.


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## Denton

Please understand as well; I do not hold animosity for police officers. Still, I admonish them to "do the right thing" regarding the rights of the citizenry and do not look for excuses for enforcing statutes on the citizen. I assure you, stiffening your position and feeling as is your pride and your "authority" is being injured when a citizen balks at having his rights violated is not doing the right thing. Officers have the responsibility to learn more than what they are taught in college, police academy or the chief. After all, he is the one who took the oath of office.

At the same time, We, the People, are responsible for living our lives in accordance to those same laws. As was stated over two hundred years ago, this form of government was only for a religious (Christian) nation, and is wholly inadequate for any other. Day by day, this nation is proving that to be true.


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## Denton

Denton out. Denton must go to work. Hope everyone has a great Saturday!


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## Denton

Denton said:


> Denton out. Denton must go to work. Hope everyone has a great Saturday!


Wifey already got my stuff together, giving me a few more minutes.

All of us who are or have had time in the CJ world are aware that Sir Robert Peel is the father of modern policing. We are know of Robert's Runners, and how they ran through the streets of London, giving the appearance of omnipresence. This gave the mugger, pickpocket, etc., reason for concern as there was no telling when a runner would come around the corner.

Today, our police ride in cruisers and could really do a fantastic job with this. Turn off the stereo, roll down the windows and pay attention to the community. Instead, I see today's runners worried more about "enforcing" "traffic codes" and less interested in what needs to be done. After all, running the KR-10, or whatever radar is used today, is a lot more fun, isn't it? After all, this gives you reason for making contact with the citizen, right? Hmmm, using a code to make contact. Meanwhile, some kids bicycle is being stolen out of the yard by someone who has little reason to fear capture.


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## Smitty901

Your are wrong about me being in the Game for no one else by a long shot. I have seen first hand how LE is no longer an honorable group. I watched as LE open doors and windows and allowed protesters to rip into the capital build in Madison because their UNION told them to.
I sat with soldiers that had done nothing wrong but they were arrested because the local police would never arrest a local. I sat there while they explained the facts of life how it really works.
Milwaukee off duty cops getting hammered in a bar start beating a man. One officer pulls a gun. 911 called. The bar owner ask to file a report. He is told you have to go the police station during normal hours to file one. The next day he goes in there is no record of the event. No record of LEO being sent there. The 911 call was " dismissed as a prank". It is made clear it better be dropped right there.
LEO officers are the ones for the most part out for themselves. If they are not like that yet they will be. Things must change hiding our heads in the sand , pretending LE is on our side will never fix it.
The only difference in many LE and the guy in prison is the badge. We see it everyday. 33 Ohio officers final arrested deal drugs the took from dealers. The only reason they were stopped they forgot to share. It goes on and on.
Stopped late at night for no reason light in the face how much you been drinking BOY. I don't drink at all officer. Claims he stopped me because my tail light was flicking. BS my bike is maintain perfectly. Demands my license, that is fine. But then demands ID from my wife. My wife is not driving, he has no right to even speak to her. "HOW DO I KNOW SHE NOT SOME HOOKER"
LE is out of control. This is today LEO.


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## Smitty901

So as a LEO officer you are going to deny, that you cover up and turn a blind eye to misconduct of other officers. Remember I watch this closely. Every single case like the officer raping women in Milwaukee that called for help in other cases . Once caught it was clear others knew he was dirty.
LE today is not what it once was . It took a lot for me to get where I stand on them today.
LE does one thing only and that is promote agenda, not LE. Many may go into LE wanting to do right but it does not take long and they become part of the system.
You your self justify by your own words LE violating the law. You imply just go along do as you are told or else. If anyone should stand fast on the law and a persons rights it should be the one with the badge.
We are not talking about one or two cases it is all over. What about the gunning down of the homeless man in New Mexico. I suppose that was just good old boys having a little fun. I watch that video 20 times they flat out gunned him down .
Drug dealing going on every where but LE more interested in checking someone's ID. They were told hands off the dealers in that area.
I have no record and have not had a traffic ticket in 25 years or more , but I get stopped time and time again on rides back home at night for no reason held check out questioned. It is called fishing and it is not legal but they do it hoping to nail you for something. When I hand one my CC card as required I got a 20 minute class on why I should not Carry. Plus searched to find out if I had any other weapons on my bikes, again against the law. I know more about my weapon and carrying one that that dummy . But he is a big man with badge power he can make up a change if he wants.
Fix your house if you are one of the few good ones.


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## Smitty901

You see what is right in front of you all you need to do is open your eyes. LE was once an Honorable group of men and women. I am old enough to have seen the change.
I will make no more post in this thread it has gotten to far over the line.


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## csi-tech

Smitty901 said:


> So as a LEO officer you are going to deny, that you cover up and turn a blind eye to misconduct of other officers. Remember I watch this closely. Every single case like the officer raping women in Milwaukee that called for help in other cases . Once caught it was clear others knew he was dirty.
> LE today is not what it once was . It took a lot for me to get where I stand on them today.
> LE does one thing only and that is promote agenda, not LE. Many may go into LE wanting to do right but it does not take long and they become part of the system.
> You your self justify by your own words LE violating the law. You imply just go along do as you are told or else. If anyone should stand fast on the law and a persons rights it should be the one with the badge.
> We are not talking about one or two cases it is all over. What about the gunning down of the homeless man in New Mexico. I suppose that was just good old boys having a little fun. I watch that video 20 times they flat out gunned him down .
> Drug dealing going on every where but LE more interested in checking someone's ID. They were told hands off the dealers in that area.
> I have no record and have not had a traffic ticket in 25 years or more , but I get stopped time and time again on rides back home at night for no reason held check out questioned. It is called fishing and it is not legal but they do it hoping to nail you for something. When I hand one my CC card as required I got a 20 minute class on why I should not Carry. Plus searched to find out if I had any other weapons on my bikes, again against the law. I know more about my weapon and carrying one that that dummy . But he is a big man with badge power he can make up a change if he wants.
> Fix your house if you are one of the few good ones.


I will categorically deny that I have ever tolerated corruption and I will out a dirty cop in a second. I am perfectly comfortable doing internal investigations and have done many. We just arrested a bad cop two weeks ago. Our crime rate has plummeted in the past 5 years because of focused, strategic community policing. Every time I talk to someone I try to tear down stereotypes. The only agenda I have served is the public trust for 25 years.


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## csi-tech

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding - Proverbs 17:28 

A great passage in my estimation and one that I keep close.


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## bigwheel

Yes very true. Or as my Daddy sometimes was apt to paraphrase the great advice..."It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool..than to speak aloud and remove all doubt." Think he may have borrowed that from Uncle Ben or some other famous person who apparently swiped it from the Bible. Or as the Eyetalian Mama told her chillins.."The Lord gave you two ears and one mouth..so shutta up your face."


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## Denton

All that is very nice, and so are the references to specific Bible verses, but they really are not pertinent. As a matter of fact, they are nothing but fuel for smoke screens.

Sock Puppet, you seem to not comprehend what I am saying, which is not at all surprising. There are very few people in the world of criminal justice who have the first inkling of what their oaths of office mean. This doesn't make them bad people; it makes them woefully lacking in knowledge. Sure, so are the citizens of this nation, but they took no oath of office. What police officers do on a daily basis is nothing short of blatant violation of the oath of office, but they are so ignorant of the very foundation of the law of this land, it is sickening. I am not speaking as someone who is innocent, I assure you. However, I am speaking as someone who learned better and decided to take an avenue that would lead me out of the situation. A shame it had to happen that way after a lot of training and a lot of college debt; know what I mean? 

Yes, Smitty is right that there are bad cops, but isn't that true in every walk of life? That doesn't concern me. What concerns me is the system that is not operating as it should, according the dream of the founders. This should concern you as well. After all, you say we should fight for liberty, together. First, however, everyone needs to understand the fundamentals of liberty, freedom, etc., and that just isn't there among the police departments. Sure, they can quote all sorts of policies and procedures, and they know particular court cases that provide them with certain "authority" to do certain things, but that is as far as it goes. As a matter of fact, I find a lot of contempt among officers for anything that prevents them from forcing citizens to obey them as if they are Judge Dredd, and that was never how it was supposed to be in this country. Even among those types, they feel a sense of duty and self righteousness. They are not like the corrupt cops that make some mad; they are above it all and are right. That makes the scene that much worse. And, in many places, this mentality is nurtured by the departments.


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## bigwheel

Could we get an interpreter to decipher what is being alleged here? Thanks. Some of us cant digest a long string of written prose. We need a Gister to put the blah blah blah stuff into a nut shell. In the mean time try to be concise. We just need the facts Ma'am as Joe Friday might say. Old Widder Ladies tend to prattle.


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## Denton

bigwheel said:


> Could we get an interpreter to decipher what is being alleged here? Thanks. Some of us cant digest a long string of written prose. We need a Gister to put the blah blah blah stuff into a nut shell. In the mean time try to be concise. We just need the facts Ma'am as Joe Friday might say. Old Widder Ladies tend to prattle.


Children who are listening to an adult conversation probably think that they are just prattling. 

I suggest you delve into some serious research on how things "ought to be," and then follow the historical timeline to where things started falling apart in this nation. I don't have time to or the ability to boil it all down to a two page summary of how our system evolved and then devolved. I really wish I could. What you view as simply prattling is me assuming anyone reading has the basic understanding of what I am saying.


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## Slippy

I love the Prepper Forums. Some of you guys and gals make me smile and often laugh out loud. 

On a side, I have a question; Does anyone have an AR15 that is stamped for both 5.56 and .223? 

(Bad Slippy, Bad Slippy!:lol


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## Moonshinedave

After 12 pages, I am probably just saying things that have been written many times, but here goes. When pulled over put both hands on top of the steering wheel, so the LEO can see them when he/she walks up. Be respectful, being aggressive is never a good idea, and you will lose the pissing contest, I promise you that. Wait to be asked for your license and registration then tell him where it's at before you reach for it. Don't argue with the LEO about your guilt, it isn't going to change whether you get a ticket or not, if you feel strongly you are not guilty, then as they say Tell it to the judge. I'm not suggesting you give up any rights, or kiss his/her butt, but using common sense, and treating the LEO like you would like to be treated goes a long way. IMO.


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## Denton

> I understood you perfectly, and I agree with you, but only to a point.
> 
> What you state is very true of some police officers, but not all. Most are very decent individuals that are incredibly knowledgeable of the Framers original intent, and uphold their respective oaths. This isn't to mean that a significant percentage of LE are legal scholars, though I knew a few who could possibly be considered such from their education apart from their LE career.
> 
> It might interest you that worked a few years as an investigator for a handful of criminal defense attorneys, so I have an insight not normally possessed by the average bear. That, and both an undergraduate and graduate degree for something else other than Criminal Justice. From this perspective, along with my active access to LE, I've seen both the good and the ugly.......and each and anytime I've obtained evidence that an officer knowingly or intentionally violated their respective oaths, I've made it a point to turn such over to their department administration.


Decent individuals, you say, although I have not suggested otherwise. Again, I am not passing judgement on the individual. It has nothing to do with decency. Unless it is tongue in cheek, I do not bash the people of the criminal justice field - except for lawyers.

I, too, have worked for a law firm doing investigative work, worked in LE, gone to college for more than just criminal justice and have not lost contact with friends who are still in that field. Most of them are retired, now, and the new kids on the block have a very different view of what their job is and how to conduct it.

Through the decades, I knew of only one officer who conducted himself as a peace officer rather than a law enforcement officer. This affable country boy didn't have the first clue what the Magna Carta was, never even as much as read the constitution after high school and would most likely think that Sir William Blackstone was a brand of knife sharpener were you to mention the name to him. Still, he innately did his job in a manner that would have made Jon Jay very proud. You never saw him making contact with a citizen over a misdemeanor unless another citizen revealed himself to be the injured party, he wouldn't pick anyone up unless he had the warrant in hand and he didn't even have a radar in his car, much less use any commercial or traffic code as a means of making contact with a citizen and didn't issue UCC citations. When situations would arise, he was the one who effectively mediated conflicts between citizens in a manner that prevented either party having to run afoul with the system. I was truly in awe of the man. As you probably could imagine, he didn't rise to lofty levels in the department political structure, but he went home at night and slept well, and was respected throughout the community.



> To further expound upon such, too many LE agencies are too dependent upon the lawmakers for both their leadership and their financial budgets, making such agencies the sockpuppet (oh the irony) of political agendas.


Can't argue with you, there.

Sock, just to reiterate, I do not doubt the decency of most cops. Yes, I am well aware of the fact that there are bad apples in every barrel, and I do not judge a barrel of apples by a couple of bad ones. Understand, I am judging policies and procedures and the evolution of the criminal justice system, itself.

A perfect illustration of what I am saying. While discussing a particular case involving someone charged with a misdemeanor, I laid out a defense plan that would have led to a very nice Title 42 suit for the defendant. The attorney's response? "What are you trying to do? Get me disbarred? I have to work within the system!"

We have come a long way, baby, to borrow a phrase from a commercial, and a long way in the wrong direction. A long way, and, no, I do not blame the cops in particular. Again, cops do not come from another planet; they come from among us. We, the People, are as dumb as a bag of hammers.


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## Denton

Slippy said:


> I love the Prepper Forums. Some of you guys and gals make me smile and often laugh out loud.
> 
> On a side, I have a question; Does anyone have an AR15 that is stamped for both 5.56 and .223?
> 
> (Bad Slippy, Bad Slippy!:lol


Are you picking on me, again? It is impolite to pick on ol' widder wimmin! :lol:

You know what I think? I think it is nice to be around a bunch of people who are willing to engage in lively debate, poke fun at one another in the process, and then go right back to discussing AR-15s, water collection systems and the latest threat to society stability!

Wifey just sat down at the table with her war paint bag and her mirror. That is my cue to go get a shower and get ready to go shopping. I don't want to miss out on today's trip as I plan on making sure we are well stocked on food, and I need to pick up a couple more gas cans.


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## bigwheel

Sockpuppet said:


> To keep it _really_ simple and to briefly highlight how the system devolved:
> 
> 1. When SCOTUS usurped the power to review, via Marbury v. Madison, in violation of Article III.
> 2. When the four Alien and Sedition acts were passed into law, in violation of 1A.
> 3. When the Federal government usurped the constitutional powers from the states, in violation of 10A.
> 4. When Progressive politics influenced government, more than the reasons stated in the Declaration of Independence.
> 5. When the doctrine of stare decisis became more important than the original intent of the Framers.
> 6. When Americans of Italian, German, and Japanese descent were interred, in violation of 5A, 6A, 9A, 13A, and 14A.
> 7. When SCOTUS misapplied 1A and usurped free religious expression, via Everson v. Board of Education, in violation of 1A.


There ya go. Marbury vs Madison was the beginning or our downward spiral leading to our present form of government known as a Judicial Dictatorship. In case nobody has noticed Bathhouse Barry is packing the Federal Courts with like minded commie liberals made in his own image who continue to help him usurp authority from the legislative branch. Its pretty sickening. We need a military coup real bad. Hoping maybe the Egyptians can show us how. They seem to have got their muzzie problems under control.


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## bigwheel

Sockpuppet said:


> Is the 9mm or .45 ACP better?


Neither one is ideal but .45 is the winner given the two choices. Other factors being equal 9mm is roughly equivalent to a .38 special in making violent folks immediately cease and desist what they are doing coming in at around a 33% effectiveness. A .45 ACP jumps the percentages up to around 75%. If a person really wants to make them knock it off get a .357 or .44 Mag loaded up with fast moving delicate hollow points. Aint many crazy folks which can walk away from those. The FBI did a big study of various calibers back in the 70's I think. Couldn't find the original study but did find some reading material on the subject at hand.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf


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## Denton

Back on track of the thread's original intent...


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## Denton

I have been online searching for an image of a coffee cup I have from back in the day. The pic is of a street cop holding a hippie by the collar and the caption is, "Next time you wave, use all _five_ fingers!" :lol:

Figured Inor would like that one.

Might have to take a picture of the cup and link it.


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## Denton

This is so relevant to so many situations. Nobody like cops can appreciate it as much.


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## bigwheel

Sockpuppet said:


> Here you go.
> 
> View attachment 6981


I used to work with that guy. He thought a hippy giving a peace sign was the same as shooting the dirty finger. Usually happened when patrolling the beach and the hipster was walking. He did not grab them by the neck but grabbed a hold of the two offending fingers and bend them over backwards till crunching noises and screams could be heard. He did not like hippies.


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## Denton

bigwheel said:


> I used to work with that guy. He thought a hippy giving a peace sign was the same as shooting the dirty finger. Usually happened when patrolling the beach and the hipster was walking. He did not grab them by the neck but grabbed a hold of the two offending fingers and bend them over backwards till crunching noises and screams could be heard. He did not like hippies.


I didn't know Inor used to be a cop?!?


----------



## onmy6

Been pulled over 10 to 12 times in 3 years.
1 for a seat belt... yes just the seat belt... got seat belt ticket
1 for 22 over 57 in a 35... i was in oklahoma on back roads and the signs went from 65 down to 25 every hundred yards coming back through i thought i was in the 55 and i wasnt. Got a 22 over ticket
1 for sitting in a parking lot figuring out how to get home.
1 for a car cruise... he said he heard all of our tires spin (manual car plus gravel on a hill)
1 for 62 in a 25... got a seat belt ticket.
1 for like 52 in a 35 got off with a warning... i honestly didnt know and told him that plus handed him a pba card. He started interviewing me on the guy... i lied and said hes a family friend we call him uncle so and so he works for narcotics at x department... the cop said what is his first name... i go i forget... the truth is a buddy gave me his dads card.
1 for an illegal u turn which was tricky because you have to bear to your right than cross the highway then get back on where i just made a left cant remember the ticket.
1 for just acting suspicious. Sitting at a red light amd day dreamed staring at the police station with a cop coming out. I naturally get nervous with cops and try to just get away. Well then im like oh crap gotta move so i move. Then put my left blinker on see he is going left so i go striaght (turn blinker off). Than make a sudden left to check on a house i shovel snow for. The cop slams on his brakes and reverses and flips his lights on... i pull over. This cop saw me grow up for the last 6 or more years. I was driving my aunts car... so i give him everything. Then here come the questions. He knew me. He goes what are ya doing i go im looking at a house to see if it needs salt. He goes really. I go yes the corner one. He goes you do snow. I go yes you know this we have talked at the lawn shop (he does snow also). He goes really nahhh. I go yes. He then preceeds to start berating me with questions about school then reverting back to the house. I go we have talked on that corner you have stopped and talked to me. He goes oh ok well have a nice night and radios in like warning or something. This guy when he first got on the force got in trouble for giving out to many tickets. He was a real d1ck to me that night. There are others but honestly they all run together.
My thing with cops. 
Step 1- pull over asap! Heck ive pulled over on a place where i shouldnt have. 
Step 2- all windows down. Interior map lights. Flashers on. Car off. I also try to get the stuff ready for him
Step 3 be completely honest with the cop. For instance with the u turn. He asks why did i pull you over. And i go for speeding he says no. I go for making a right on the red light he says no. I go something with the u turn. He says yea you have to go through it (this is empty at 1230am). I go officer this is maybey second time and i knew it was tricky but screwed up.
Step 4- yes sir no sir and i say to the officer dont work to hard.
I really havent gotten any bad cops and i know i did something wrong so i admit it and take what they give. Some cops are bad but i find for the most part they are trying to do a job.
Funny story my friends and i are in a statepark at an overlook and its on a big rock overlooking a lake. We go there to study often and USED to buy a small fire ring and cook smores and study. Well one day my friend was yelling condensers condense (teacher was talking about hvac and it was just a class joke). Well we went back to the car to grab shit and well here come the police. They heard us yelling. Dumbass me went to shake their hand (we were all out of vehicles) the guy reached for his gun. He asks about the screaming and we explain. Then the questions about what we are doing/ getting. I welcomed them to search my trunk to see we mean no harm. We ended up just getting verbally reprimanded to not have fires up on the rock... they sent us down to a fire ring with over handing trees and a leaves on the ground. Our ring was much smaller and open and on a rock (perfect for sitting on the warm rock).


----------



## Will2

in addition to the internet being used to create kill lists by the US government for drone strikes know that admitting to offences or just naughty views could be used against you in a NOT court of law

I would caution anyone from posting anything self-incriminating depreciating or non politically correct on the Internet without first realizing it could be their life. cops destroy people's lives as part of their job totally acceptable conduct for them understand that and protect yourself

there are undoubtedly people mining data on sites such as this for nefarious usages

realize also the laws are often political consensus of the ruling class and seldom are challenged at the point of jury if you have that benefit 

the key is that if you're interacting with a police officer chances are it means someone's life is being endangered if not their blood than their freedom


some good is done but I think anybody that has had to deal with police realizes that not everything they do is Angelic

the chief aim of anyone dealing with police should be the police's first aim and that's number one protecting yourself not only physically but legally and any other way that exists. cops can be some of the most effective con artists around and all to get you locked away


----------



## dannydefense

Damn it, Will.



onmy6 said:


> Step 1- pull over asap! Heck ive pulled over on a place where i shouldnt have.
> Step 2- all windows down. Interior map lights. Flashers on. Car off. I also try to get the stuff ready for him


A couple of observations, if I may? Don't pull over where you shouldn't. Consider your safety and the officers; if that means travelling a little farther up the road until the shoulder is more accessible, or an off ramp is available, that's fine. Make it obvious you're slowing down and pulling over (blinker helps but isn't always necessary), but don't pull over where you're putting either parties safety at risk.

Also, don't turn your flashers on. That is actually more distracting to the officer than anyone, and his or her lights will more than suffice for the situation.

Mostly this post was just an excuse to say Damn it, Will.


----------



## Denton

Omny, do not have all your papers ready for them. 

He violate a traffic code. Target acquired by code enforcer.

Enforcer stops target, walks to target to retrieve necessary documents for fine issuance.

Operator of motor vehicle hands over documents so that code enforcer may return to cruiser.

See how impersonal this is? You are dehumanizing yourself. Take a little time finding that registration or insurance card that is hidden among the repair receipts and warranty sheets that have piled up in the glove box. Take the time to engage in polite conversation while rooting around. Become a nice, decent human being to the code enforcer, who is also a human being.

Wait, is this a thread about getting out of tickets or about not getting one's head stomped in? We've gone around so many side streets in this thread that I can't keep up.


----------



## dannydefense

Denton said:


> Wait, is this a thread about getting out of tickets or about not getting one's head stomped in? We've gone around so many side streets in this thread that I can't keep up.


Police can be bad for your health, but not always. Unless you are or were in law enforcement, in which case none of you poor civilians understand a thing about it, and respect their author-i-tay.

Pretty much sums it up.


----------



## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> Back on subject.....
> 
> View attachment 6998


.....uh, that's one gorgeous beach!


----------



## Denton

dannydefense said:


> Police can be bad for your health, but not always. Unless you are or were in law enforcement, in which case none of you poor civilians understand a thing about it, and respect their author-i-tay.
> 
> Pretty much sums it up.


Years ago after a bad divorce, I drove trucks for a few years to clear my head. I got laid over for a few days in Los Angeles, so I bob-tailed around a bit. I got pulled over for speeding, and the cop wrote me a ticket. He felt a little bad about issuing it, so I told him not to worry as I used to be in his shoes and I understood. He slammed the ticket book, glared at me and tersely asked why I didn't mention this before he put pen to paper. :lol: I told him I didn't want to influence his decision with that lame old crap and that I was now a truck driver.

We spent a few minutes shooting the breeze, I took my ticket and we parted company. He was a good guy.

See, Puppet? I like cops. As long as they keep their mitts off my donuts. :lol:


----------



## onmy6

dannydefense said:


> Damn it, Will.
> 
> A couple of observations, if I may? Don't pull over where you shouldn't. Consider your safety and the officers; if that means travelling a little farther up the road until the shoulder is more accessible, or an off ramp is available, that's fine. Make it obvious you're slowing down and pulling over (blinker helps but isn't always necessary), but don't pull over where you're putting either parties safety at risk.
> 
> Also, don't turn your flashers on. That is actually more distracting to the officer than anyone, and his or her lights will more than suffice for the situation.
> 
> Mostly this post was just an excuse to say Damn it, Will.


It was a two way road but on the opposite side of me was parking and on my side no parking... it still was wide enough and the safest place is in a parking lot but wasnt around one.
Also, i talk to em and im more of a yes sir i know i was speeding i screwed up. I dont like to lie. I have shaken a few hands while pulled over. Ive evem asked em questions about other things. Im gonna stick with my blinkers and all that... i try to show im not moving. I feel with the amount of times i have been pulled over to the fines i have gotten my method works well.
The oklahoma cop (22 over) he goes what are you doing out here. I go the gf back home and i got into a fight and i just went for a drive. And he goes underatandable and comes back with a ticket. I cant fault him speeds were posted and i screwed up. Then i asked where does it turn to 55 and he proceeds to tell me where and also where he was hiding (i didnt know the area so just nodded my head)


----------



## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> Then you crossed over the other side. :lol:


I was a donut fiend on both sides.

You know, there should be a study. What came first, the uniform or the affinity for donuts? Could those who crave donuts be genetically predisposed to riding around in squad cars and swilling coffee?


----------



## Will2

not sure if anybody's been watching CNN with the guy who got his passenger side window busted in and tazed who didn't get out of the vehicle fast enoughapparently the police were chatting with known for over 10 minutes when they ask for his ID he offered to show them a ticket and when he didn't have a driver's license and what do you want to get it they broke his window and had tazed.

did bit of nonsense cuz he said they said that he wasn't cooperating but he was obliged in the request to be showed some identification later the cops said that he was not cooperating because he didnt to get out of the vehicle.


just wondering where people have an obligation to exit the house or vehicle at the request of a police officer comes fromwhy is against the law to stay inside your property?


he was only a passenger in the vehicle not the driver though.

are people obliged to exit propery to accept the tickets. don't people have the choice to remain inside their property unless they're being charged? for instance if you're in your house can the police often obtain you and then force you to leave your propertyor do they need an arrest warrant to do something like that?


yeah apparently they weren't wearing seat belt so that's what it was all about but that ended up being a big issue police trying to issue a seatbelt ticket with their guns pulled out


no weapons but apparently reaching for a proof of identity calls for a taser


----------



## dannydefense

Will said:


> not sure if anybody's been watching CNN with a guy who got his passenger side window busted in and taste I didn't get out of the vehicle fast enoughapparently the place for chatting with known for over 10 minutes when they ask for his ID he offered to show them I take it and when he didn't have a driver's license and what do you want to get it they broke his window and had tazed.
> 
> did bit of nonsense cuz he said they said that he wasn't cooperating but he was obliged in the request to be showed some identification later the cops said that he was not cooperating because he didnt to get out of the vehicle.
> 
> just wondering where people have an obligation to exit the house or vehicle at the request of a police officer comes fromwhy is against the law to stay inside your property?


Damn it, Will.


----------



## bigwheel

Yep..failing to follow instructions can be a clue.


----------



## Denton

bigwheel said:


> Yep..failing to follow instructions can be a clue.


Huh? Failure to follow instructions? Are wd talking military, here? The post to which you responded was hard to follow. I think Will must be using a tablet or a phone, as I now am. Less than an hour before I get off work -woo hoo!


----------



## TG

Sockpuppet said:


> Back on subject.....
> 
> View attachment 6998


I like her tool (ok not tool, don't have the correct English word) belt. Clearly, I regret not coming back to this thread earlier


----------



## oddapple

Aha! It's in the use - utility belts are carried by medical and military etc and tool belts are carried by utility workers.


----------



## TG

oddapple said:


> Aha! It's in the use - utility belts are carried by medical and military etc and tool belts are carried by utility workers.


*UTILITY!!! * Thanks!


----------



## TG

#$%& @ English


----------



## oddapple

Ah! The police have a distinction. I am used to the u belt crowd...


----------



## TG

Sockpuppet said:


> For some reason, I just want to call you "Ziva."
> 
> Ziva-isms


I have never seen this show but some of the comments are funny, clicked on your link. I get easily frustrated with English..


----------



## Will2

I'm guessing it will come out in the criminal case or the lawsuit

personally I think it was an overreaction to force as they having identified a weapon hunt personally if they're calling 911 it's probably not indicative that they plan on pulling out a weapon and shooting someone I just don't see how old the cops could have thought he was reaching for a weapon one he was reaching for ID if they had seen a weapon then it would be reasonable but in the absence of a weapon having a gun pulled and smash a window and tasing someone is an overreaction.

I think that think he was reaching for a weapon line is after the fact and the real reason is because he refused to exit the vehicle at the request of the officer. I would be very surprised that the reason why this happened was because police felt you had a weapon I personally think that the reason they proceeded the way they did was solely based upon his refusal to exit the vehicle and as soon as his sight was removed from them they executed the forced removal for that reason alone.

at the very least the police should have cautioned him of his legal requirement to comply with the request before using force normally you don't escalate the level of force prior to communicating verbally the risk of charges or use of force

up to the moment of the window smashing they were still communicating for the purpose of issuing the ticket not charging the person for a refusal to obey police orders to exit the vehicle

personally I don't understand why he just didn't get out of the vehicle but at the same time for the purpose of getting a ticket issued you really shouldn't have needed to

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1268.ZO.html

http://www.hullstreetlaw.com/can-a-...one-out-of-the-vehicle-during-a-traffic-stop/

"police must harbor reasonable suspicion that the person subjected to the frisk is armed and dangerous."

black guy in car with mother and kids is not reasonable suspicion that someone is armed and dangerous

how is here I'll show you a ticket reasonable suspicion that someone is armed it isn't

well as really no reason at all for it therefore it is not reasonable like you need reasonable suspicion of smelling pot or see drugs beinfore entering a home without a warrant if you don't smell pot you don't just wonder in cuz the person looks like a stoner that's not reasonable it's profiling

just because someone looks like some black dude who could be gang banger doesn't mean that that's reasonable suspicion to. search for a gun I think that perhaps this suspicion of being armed and dangerous is being applied a little too liberally in regards to having someone to conduct a search of them just cuz you don't like the way they lookbear in mind that the grounds to have an exit the vehicle is based upon the reasonable suspicion you shouldn't have a reasonable suspicion based upon them refusing to exit the vehicle that's somewhat paradoxical and self fulfilling if you ask me

now the real issue is that 911 was called from the vehicle. normally calling 911 give some urgency powers to police to sidestep requirements for warrant to execute activities in a property

Wilson held that the Mimms rule applied to passengers as well as to drivers. Specifically, the Court instructed that "an officer making a traffic stop may order passengers to get out of the car pending completion of the stop." 519 U.S. at 415.

over here seems to be the main issue with issuing them out once detained if he hasn't submitted them he is not being detained

"There is no seizure without that person's actual submission."
As in Brendlin the Court explained, "A person is seized and thus entitled to challenge the government's action when officers, by physical force or a show of authority, terminate or restrain the person's freedom of movement through means intentionally applied."4 A crucial distinction may involve the difference between when the police stop the vehicle and when they act in a way that conveys to a reasonable person that he or she is not free to leave. "There is no seizure without that person's actual submission."5 When police actions do not show an unambiguous intent to restrain or when an individual's submission takes the form of passive acquiescence, "the test for telling when a seizure occurs is whether, in light of all the surrounding circumstances, a reasonable person would have believed he [or she] was not free to leave."6

effectively they had to detain him prior to ordering at him out of the vehicle not order the vehicle then then detain. as since he was questioning the validity of his seizure he had not yet been seized

no no I said seems like that yeah you can be ordered out of the vehicle. But the officer really should have a legitimate fear for his safety. I really don't think that was the case here I think the fuse old exit the vehicle alone not any reasonable suspicion that he was a danger as if they thought he had a weapon then they would have just had a gun pulled they would have used it

no way is a cop going to talk with his gun pulled for 10 minutes with somebody thinks is armed and dangerous

if the cops reasonably felt they were in danger they would have used the guns not just pulled them

seems a little more extreme this guy apparently moved too fast
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/

this raises another important. Tell officers everything you're doing and why before doing it

no this other thing ended when he told her after she was going to get his ticket to show them proof of his identity officers had ordered him to show some ID so it was actually executing the officers orders when the event unfolded the same as this time

the officers should have told him to set aside looking for his ID or his proof of ID and that he was legally required to exit the vehicle so that a search could be conducted to ensure that he was not a physical threat to the officers


----------



## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> Just watched the video, and read the media story on it.
> 
> The man refused to exit the vehicle for 13 minutes, and for the purpose of a _Terry_, and further expounded by _Pennsylvania v. Mimms, 434 U.S. 106_, such doesn't matter if one is a driver or passenger.
> 
> I may be wrong, but from a perspective of what is available, the police acted within the confines of the law.


Within the _law_. Do you see a problem with that? Do you see how far we have traveled from the days when the rights of the citizens were the priority? 
It should be perfectly clear how commercial and traffic codes trump all else. No felony was committed, no injured party was involved, yet we see what happened. So now, we have devolved to the point where cops hold the lofty position to stop the _operator_ of a _motor vehicle_ for the infraction of a traffic code and, in the process, attack a non-violent, non-interfering citizen because he was not compliant. I find this to be appalling, and I find it equally appalling that fellow citizens do not see the danger in this or what direction all of this is going.

One day, even the most ardent deniers are going to realize what is happening and are going to squeal. Maybe. Maybe they'll keep quiet and hide. Either way, it'll be too late.


----------



## dannydefense

Will said:


> I'm guessing it will come out in the criminal case or the lawsuit
> 
> personally I think it was an overreaction to force as they having identified a weapon hunt personally if they're calling 911 it's probably not indicative that they plan on pulling out a weapon and shooting someone I just don't see how old the cops could have thought he was reaching for a weapon one he was reaching for ID if they had seen a weapon then it would be reasonable but in the absence of a weapon having a gun pulled and smash a window and tasing someone is an overreaction.


Damn it, Will.


----------



## Slippy

dannydefense said:


> Damn it, Will.


What I find MOST INTERESTING is that Will usually EDITS his posts! Will my man, Please--- I want to read them BEFORE you edit them!


----------



## Will2

I use voice to text and the words don't always translate properly from the machine

also when I'm touch typing on this little smartphone typing errors can come up it's much better for you to wait until after I finished my edits to read my messages then reading them with the errors in Mass


----------



## dannydefense

Will said:


> I use voice to text and the words don't always translate properly from the machine
> 
> also when I'm touch typing on this little smartphone typing errors can come up it's much better for you to wait until after I finished my edits to read my messages then reading them with the errors in Mass


Stop.

Using.

Voice.

To.

Text.

Please.

For.

The.

Love.

Of.

God.


----------



## Will2

Sockpuppet said:


> _Terry_ is a minimally invasive O
> 
> Did it need to happen? No.


 what you don't understand is that he didn't have ID and he was getting some. exiting the vehicle without the ID would have been not producing the ID.

USSChas been pretty straightforward with the basics of this. first you didn't have to produce IDyou should have just had his name requested the officer went further than I needed to in requesting ID as opposed to his name to write the ticket. second the officer didn't have a reason task into it step out of the vehicle officer was being invasive because there was no reasonable grounds to believe he was armed. this is much the same as asking his mother or his children to exit the vehicle because they were armed there was no reason to believe so. the author unduly and intrusive li tried to get him to follow orders that have no reason to be issued in the first place all he needed was his ID or his name in absence of his ID the officers should have just asked him for his name written the ticket and went on his way. the author clearly wanted him to have done something else. and so was prying into his privacy and violating his would be rights



> Does one have to wait until a weapon is displayed, in order to mitigate a hazardous situation?


being libertarian I can flatly say yes you do you should know they start stripping them back for convenience for work ensuring that criminals get caught that's the exact same violations that your founding fathers sought to ensure were not violated.
if you have a good reason to believe someone is a threat and plans to act on their ability to endanger you then yes there is reason to protect yourself but some guy sitting in a car with his family you had a gun trained on them you have next to no threat at all you could not neutralize in the event that a weapon was produced because you already have your gun pulled and trained on them you don't need to take them out of the vehicle to conduct a search. and well there are powers which facilitate for police to conduct a search of individuals if they feel that their safety is in danger please should not as per a routine search everyone they pull over to write a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt these are too opposite extremes and we should not have our lives and dated unduly simply being pulled over should not equate grounds for a search it should only be if the officer has reason to believe that his safety is jeopardized if a search for weapons is not conducted and there's no reason to think this guy who is trying to choose something with his name on it was such a threat. what I believe is it since this person wasn't wearing his state armband designating who you was by producing a government issued piece of ID that we've all had tattooed to us that they were going to bring him in anyway I'm we're just looking for an excuse to bust him because he wasn't tagged

what made this worst is that they were busting the cops balls and had 911 on the line about the police officers conduct so they had to bust him for something

he gave them lip by disputing his need to get out of the vehicle so they whipped him

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=black+guy+tased++passenger+wi ndow+smashed

take your pic of videos

(EXCLUSIVE) Indiana Police Break Car Window, Tase&#8230;:


----------



## bigwheel

Will said:


> not sure if anybody's been watching CNN with the guy who got his passenger side window busted in and tazed who didn't get out of the vehicle fast enoughapparently the police were chatting with known for over 10 minutes when they ask for his ID he offered to show them a ticket and when he didn't have a driver's license and what do you want to get it they broke his window and had tazed.
> 
> did bit of nonsense cuz he said they said that he wasn't cooperating but he was obliged in the request to be showed some identification later the cops said that he was not cooperating because he didnt to get out of the vehicle.
> 
> just wondering where people have an obligation to exit the house or vehicle at the request of a police officer comes fromwhy is against the law to stay inside your property?
> 
> he was only a passenger in the vehicle not the driver though.
> 
> are people obliged to exit propery to accept the tickets. don't people have the choice to remain inside their property unless they're being charged? for instance if you're in your house can the police often obtain you and then force you to leave your propertyor do they need an arrest warrant to do something like that?
> 
> yeah apparently they weren't wearing seat belt so that's what it was all about but that ended up being a big issue police trying to issue a seatbelt ticket with their guns pulled out
> 
> no weapons but apparently reaching for a proof of identity calls for a taser


Houses and cars are a bit different. Its been historically held on numerous court cases that an occupant of a motor vehicle on a public highway has much less of an expectation of privacy than somebody at home in bed. The goofy bastid should have got out of the car. The alleged perp was apparently unduly influenced by listening to his nutty pals running the mouth parts too much.


----------



## dannydefense

Sockpuppet said:


> Damn it, Danny.


Damn it, Sockpuppet.


----------



## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> It has, but you are confusing the law with what you believe, to what the law has in fact, been interpreted to state.
> 
> He was obligated to exit the vehicle when instructed to do so.
> He was obligated to allow himself to be handcuffed and a patted down for weapons.
> He was obligated to keep his hands visible.
> He was obligated to identify himself.
> He was obligated to allow himself to be fingerprinted at the scene, if so instructed.
> He was obligated to allow any area within his reach to be searched.
> He was obligated to not to resist such lawful commands.


He is obligated to realize he is no longer living in the constitutional republic created over two centuries ago.
I am obligated to be nauseated by the notion that anyone deems that list of obligations as anything less than tyranny.
The Gestapo would be proud of what their old enemy has become.


----------



## bigwheel

Rules help make us safe. If the anarchists dont like following the rules..they can build their own private highway and drive on that.


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## Will2

let's see all the cases go and we can pick it up from there all I can say is that it didn't. need to happen and clearly the cops were wrong

the cob seem to feel the need to bust someone's window and electric youth of to prevent them from being shot by this guy who didnt have a gun

perhaps you should add the rule if police officer asked you to produce id ask them to put their gun and ram away prior to you reaching for it and to pray while doing so


----------



## Will2

dude they had a gun trained on the guy I don't think he was going to be getting away with anyything with the cops

none the less I think it was horrible responsiveness by the police they need to learn to communicate much much better rather than resort to use of force when words will suffice simply by explaining the situation and how it could evolve if there is not the result that is requiredand that if they do intend to arrest that he be instructed he can obtain counseland his other Miranda rights not beat him up then provide rights later


I'm starting to be a little suspicious that there may be another motive for tasing the guy was so he wasn't shot.


based upon the information I do have from watching the videos not sure if you have yet it was totally unnecessary


----------



## bigwheel

Cops run out of witty stuff to say at some point. Then it comes time to swing into action..as Broderick Crawford could be heard saying sometimes.


----------



## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> Two centuries ago, this guy would have been considered property, and had no governmental recognized rights at all. Furthermore, while we may all agree that the ideals of liberty articulated by the Founders were noble, in practice, those same men trampled upon the rights of the citizenry as well. It doesn't make it right, but it does provide context to the argument of original intent, and original practice.
> 
> Gestapo tactics notwithstanding, a police officer has every bit the right to his life as does anyone else. The man's refusal to follow a reasonable command, provided a reasonable response of LE to protect themselves while performing necessary duties.
> 
> With rights, come responsibilities. I refuse to believe that man's right to do as he pleases as absolute, as even the Scriptures dictate a degree of balance.


So, the fact that the founders, who also envisioned a day when slavery would be a thing of the past, were incorrect with the notion of law and its origins? I have to say, that is the longest reach I have heard in quite a while. Furthermore, you argument has no merit, as all men are to be equally free, not equally enslaved. Not by other men, and not by an oppressive government.

A "law enforcement officer's" right to go home alive does not trump a man's rights. Don't like it, find another job. Furthermore, I freaking NEVER conducted myself in such a manner and I have not one wit of respect for any current coffee-swiller who feels the only way he can make it home alive is to bust in a car window onto a family and taze the crap out of someone who had nothing to do with the stupid traffic code violation. What an absolute load of crap, crap that is used as cover and concealment as the rights of men are taken.

No, not Gestapo tactics notwithstanding; that is the whole point of the matter. Furthermore, a free man is not obligated to obey the command of a thug with a gun. Yeah, you'll point at court rulings and I will point at what we all should know. And, yes, by the way; I am alive. Wow! How in the Hell did I ever make it home at night without tazing the dogshit out of unarmed passengers after I used a PR-24 or whatever it was to smash glass all over the family? Disgusting!

I am bowing out of this conversation as I have heard all the excuses for tyranny I think I can stand.

While the founders would puke at your feet, I am sure there are a lot of chiefs and mayors who would be proud. That asshole who commanded the passenger in a very "professional" way to look at his bars would give you two thumbs up for speaking up for him, no doubt.


----------



## bigwheel

we have to tune out the haters.


----------



## Will2

once I get my duravis dive next week I can use my keyboard with the dive so yes I can stop using voice to text sometimes it's really convenient


----------



## Inor

Will said:


> once I get my duravis dive next week I can use my keyboard with the dive so yes I can stop using voice to text sometimes it's really convenient


WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in China?!?!


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## dannydefense

Will said:


> once I get my duravis dive next week I can use my keyboard with the dive so yes I can stop using voice to text sometimes it's really convenient


IT HAS NEVER BEEN CONVENIENT FOR US.

Just say no man.


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## Will2

the bottom line here is that eitheryou think that an escalation of force was necessary to proceed with the ticket or the police felt that the man who was getting his ticket and stated he was getting it to show them his proof of identity was sufficient or not personally I think that the police escalated it without resistance he was not seized at the time that the order was given because he was questioning the constitutionality of the detention and therefore was not given adequate reply and they did not proceed to request he exit the vehicle and the police did not attempt to have others exit the vehicle after his so-called refusal whereby there was another door in which they could have been ordered to leave the vehicle none the less shattering a passenger side window of someone else's car in place filled with other people presents a danger to the other occupants and likewise any type of physical assault if there is no need to escalate the use of force when other options were still available. he was not showing signs of aggression and she was not assaultive. there is no need to escalate the use of force when other options were still available and the protection of other occupants in the vehicle was in question the police put other people at jeopardy in the actions they undertook without the need this clearly was simply a smack down on this guy because he was not willing to be hassled by the police and she had not broken the law as he himself was wearing a seatbelt when the vehicle was in motion


none the less someone who does not represent a clear and present danger shoulderen't protected from the policethe outrageous part of this is that someone else's car window was smashed in and other occupants of the vehicle weren't protected from the police action which was clearly a traumatizing action for all the occupants of the vehicle and it was unnecessary


this was plainly police stupidity and to not see it that way means you're probably also stupid but you are entitled to your opinion


I have the impression the police were just digging for something to get these people onso they picked a fight


at the end of the day the police should have requested the other occupants of the vehicle exit the vehicle before doing their smackdown on the window and the person that is so sad to be a threat to the police officers well he's refusing to exit the vehicle

normally people who want to attack police don't stand behind a car door and window and questioned the constitutionality of the action that's a defensive action especially when the person outside of the vehicle has a gun drawn on you

clearly would you want exit your vehicle if someone has a gun pointed at you hell no the guy wasn't armed but the police have their guns drawn well he was in his vehicle you didn't break the law so why was he being abused or detained. you don't need to draw a gun to write a ticket

his position was that the police had not seized him and had not informed him of the reason for arrest or detention so he was not seized and was not required to exit the vehicle

they had asked him to produce ID which he did not have in a standard it so he offered an alternate form of government issued notice and then got it for them. following the instructions to produce ID is a compliant action not a resistant action

well he was getting his identification they attacked him without any grounds

it is not a reasonable presumption that somebody stating they are getting their ID is getting a weapon and in this case there was no weapon


the police had no grounds whatsoever to believe he had violent intentionsit is completely lawful to question the constitutionality of a detainment and if reasons are not given there too a person is not lawfully police the grounds have to be clear to lawfully see someone someone who is not lawfully seized is not obligated to comply to police request unless they are required for emergency purposes which in this case at the time the orders were issued were previous to a response from emergency personnel.

the response itself was and endangerment to the other occupants so we can't say this was the correct method if we do then you're basically endangering the public with gung ho brutal police actions that are holy unnecessary other than to instill fear of a corrupted and tyranical government
who beats its citizens for minor infractions that see no victims and thus are not crimes

Terry is for criminal activity not infractions
where was the suspicion or reasonable suspicion of criminal activity I don't see it


no victim no crime

yeahhh gangbanger running around with his mother and kids and some other dude clearly they must have been up to no good cuz they were black


wonder how often the president gets frisked


only half the time right

Gtfo here. what happened was an abuserecognize that and grow as a person please


now bear in mind I'm unlikely to be in America at least until June if not never but my opinion is founded upon my understanding of American law which basically says you gotta have a reason for searching people and that reason should be that they're involved in breaking the law or a danger to you I don't see that here.

any actions that come after that are totally suspect

bear in mind I don't gotto live there so I can understand your position.

my gosh have you Americans never heard of the Fourth Amendment
A search for weapons in the absence of probable cause to arrest, however, must, like any other search, be strictly circumscribed by the exigencies which justify its initiation. Warden v. Hayden, 387 U.S. 294, 310 (87 S.Ct. 1642, 1652, 18 L.Ed.2d 782) (1967) 

his "crime" was not stepping out of the vehicle usually you require a crime to have someone step out of the vehicle

it's surprising the US Bill of Rights is becoming a crime for people to uphold


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## bigdogbuc

shotlady said:


> im not stupid  men don't want to talk about purses and sweaters. not even with big titted broads. they always seem to "need to go"












"...mmmm, big titted broads..."


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## NoobMom

I got pulled over for a 75 in a 55...I was sobbing...the cop was probably thinking damn why is this chick in a minivan so upset. He asked why I was speeding. I told him my 4 year old was being sent home from preschool yet again for being bad and my nerves couldn't take it. I was telling the truth LOL. He said ma'm I totally understand and that he had little kids too. He was nice and let me off. It was probably one of the weirdest excuses and he wanted to get the hell out of there.

I haven't had any bad interactions with police. Where we live they are the good ole boys and if you fit in with them you are OK. I have heard it sucks if you don't fit in with them though...But most everyone around here fits in and they round up the thugs pretty fast.


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## NoobMom

Eagles700LvL said:


> With regard to being pulled over he always has suggested to me that if you get pulled over roll down all your windows, turn the dome light on (if night).


Solid advice. I have never thought to roll down windows other than the driver's window. I have been asked to do so several times though so they can check out the back of the minivan.


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## Sockpuppet

.....


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## Inor

SkepticalPrepper said:


> Am i the only one around here that likes cops?


Do you actually know how to read sport? Obviously not or you might have noticed several here ARE cops.

Since you seem to think of yourself as being so much smarter than the rest of us dumb rubes, how about you enlighten us on your thoughts on the great challenges of the day rather than just throwing hand grenades?


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## Sockpuppet

Inor said:


> Do you actually know how to read sport? Obviously not or you might have noticed several here ARE cops.
> 
> Since you seem to think of yourself as being so much smarter than the rest of us dumb rubes, how about you enlighten us on your thoughts on the great challenges of the day rather than just throwing hand grenades?


Hey Inor....I placed that dummy on ignore because I don't want to see his posts.

Do me a favor and don't quote him.


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## Inor

Well SkepticalPrepper, I am sure impressed! You know how to use PhotoShop and I got to you bad enough in what, 5 maybe 6 posts, that you would stretch you intellectual muscle to call little ol' me out specifically? Boy, how do we rate the attentions of a ****ing rocket scientist like you?


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## Sockpuppet

http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/...-skepticalprepper-troll-alert.html#post193881


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## pheniox17

OK how do you make pics into signatures that news one is ****en funny


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## bigwheel

pheniox17 said:


> OK how do you make pics into signatures that news one is ****en funny


Not sure what you just said. I have tried to join the Aussie place a time or two. What is the key? I am thinking of taking my Sheila to the Billibong. Tie me Wallaby down.


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## pheniox17

bigwheel said:


> Not sure what you just said. I have tried to join the Aussie place a time or two. What is the key? I am thinking of taking my Sheila to the Billibong. Tie me Wallaby down.


Since you don't have a signature you may not get it, and adding pic is short for picture

Savvy??


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## James m

Oh damn well I had three incidents with the state police recently. Two were actually tonight. The first one, there was a guy in front of me going 35 in a 55 passing zone and he was playing games tapping brakes etc. So I go to pass him and I don't make it around so I have to hit the brakes and get a bit squirrely as im recovering. So next thing I know theres blue lights behind me so I pull over and tell him I was trying to pass the guy in front and he was going 35 and he lets me go.
The first one tonight was a detour for some reason. But it was loaded with so many lights youd think Kmart was having a sale. He was directing traffic and I wasn't going fast enough for him so he started yelling (stop sign in the area too)
Second one tonight I clipped the rear leg of a deer and heard a small clunk so I pull off near a car dealer and put my 4 ways on. The second car to pass was a state police car. He stops and a asks if everything is ok and I tell him about the deer he uses his mounted light on the car to check for damage then asks if it was a buck or a doe.


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## Doc Holliday

Its getting so bad now a days that if I am pulled over and asked to exit the vehicle I have to tell them that I walk with a cane and I will be reaching for it BEFORE I reach for it. I saw the video of the poor old guy that was shot by a cop when he got out of his truck holding his cane and the cop told him to drop the gun as he started shooting him.

I was born way too late! would have been happier 200 years ago living out in the woods....


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