# BI/OL Defense



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

I am hoping that I will see some creative (i.e. beyond pungee sticks) perimeter defense. And I want to hear about how someone plans to defend a farm-size area. Yes, that may mean no close neighbors. There's your scenario: not more than 3 people with guns, farm acres, defend the perimeter. If we are all lucky, we may need to cover this as we try to keep the food production secure.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Provide me with adequate pictures of said farm, and I will tell you what plans I've devised. This may be why a lot of these conversations, much to your chagrin, rotate back around to the tools employed to defend a position rather than the tactical plan itself; because depending on your environment that plan could dramatically change. If I have a reason to defend an area, I'll walk around it until I know it extremely well before I even start thinking of things like defensive positions or tactics. Perhaps I don't have enough imagination to just create an area in my head and tell you how I would defend it, I apologize if that's the case; perhaps you could start us off with some example of the ideas you're looking for?


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

An idea just came to me. If its fenced in you could put a thin low voltage wire on with the fence. Run electricity through it and then to a lightbulb wherever you are. The wire gets cut or breaks. The bulb goes out. Use multiple bulbs for different areas of fence so you know the general direction.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Like I already said elsewhere -- with that big a place and that few people - the very FIRST things you need to invest in are several fast and rugged ATVs and some damn good walkie-talkies. Buy the ones with the maximum range you can get, because you'll only realize about 1/10 of what they claim on the box (which is good for mountain top to mountain top). 

Hmm -- some real good guard dogs would also be useful. And I would invest in some good perimeter early warning alarm systems. You don't need a lot, just have a few that are strategically positioned.


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## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

This is partially theoretical, so let's say that the farm is small (10-15 acres) and rolling hills. Fencing may work, but may be too expensive. I think tinkerhell and I have the perimeter alarm system worked out in theory. I'm wondering if a high voltage fence might work. Of course that would kinda keep any local game out. That might be even better. Vegetarians would celebrate.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Claymores will act as a good alarm. Unless you're a sound sleeper.


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## 7515 (Aug 31, 2014)

foo gas canisters and trip wires


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Its easy and cheap to buy triggers to detonate 12 gauge shells with a trip wire. If your certain live stock will not go into an area that is. Punji sticks work well with the same limitations.


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## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

paraquack said:


> Claymores will act as a good alarm. Unless you're a sound sleeper.


Just for the record, if this was my place we were discussing, that might happen. This house has thick double-pane windows and 2 x 6 studded walls. Very little noise gets through loud enough towake anyone.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

To begin with, depending on how much area you are talking about and the terrain, your parameter may be too much for the small number of people that you have. You might have to tighten it up. What are you guarding? If it is livestock, you might have to move them closer to the house at night. You may have to designate someone to pull night guard duty who can wake everyone else up if things go wrong. Buy some dogs. Don't be too quick to disregard traps. Depending on the size of your operation you might want to consider acquiring more manpower.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

thepeartree said:


> I am hoping that I will see some creative (i.e. beyond pungee sticks) perimeter defense. And I want to hear about how someone plans to defend a farm-size area. Yes, that may mean no close neighbors. There's your scenario: not more than 3 people with guns, farm acres, defend the perimeter. If we are all lucky, we may need to cover this as we try to keep the food production secure.


Sorry, peartree, . . . two words come to mind on how you would accomplish your goal: you won't.

Only 3 people means that in order to have 24/7 capability, . . . two are up while one is asleep, . . . that means 16 hours on and 8 off, . . . and gets really old, . . . really quick.

Any other option makes you late to the party.

The best you could hope for is to defend the "important" part of said perimeter, . . . or draw the new perimeter in close enough that you can have a better chance of quickly reacting to incursions.

4 wheelers are a waste of time and energy IMHO, . . . because if I'm the crook, . . . I'll hear you coming, . . . lay low till you pass, . . . then go about my nefarious business. The ********* have been doing this for centuries in the sand box, . . . and the Vietcong did it both before and after our stay in Vietnam.

Defence is a squirrely game, . . . fraught with pitfalls, unexpected consequences, . . . witness the German defenses against the West in WW2. The best you can really hope for is to be alive each morning you wake up (waking up dead can ruin your whole day), . . . and maintain a small area of operation that you CAN control with your few troops. A farm with 3 is beyond the reach.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

Depending on the terrain, a deep ditch with a sharp incline out can do a lot of good. Basically, you'd need to make a poor man's tank ditch. At the very least, it could keep out most wheeled vehicles, and that's mostly what you'd have to worry about. You could also reenforce this with any extra fence/barb wire you have around the farm. It would be a very, very labor intensive job, especially with three people, but the benefits of restricting movement into your farm could be huge. If the terrain isn't conducive to doing this around the entire perimeter, you could always dig the ditches around any roads/trails leading in, and use them to deny access through these roads.

Also, is there anywhere on the property that allows line of sight across the rest of the property? If not, a simple watchtower/observation post would be a good step. Could be as simple as a tree stand for hunting on a pole coming off the roof of the house/barn, or more complicated, with sandbags filling the "tower", and offering the people inside some protection.

You wanted creative, hope this helps.


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## A J (Oct 16, 2014)

Depending on the outer terrain (beyond the farm), maybe you can funnel all traffic into a preferred direction (knock out a couple bridges to force vehicles to approach only one direction?)

I agree that you need more folks to defend a perimeter (of any size) for more than a few days.

What about animals that might help give you warning? Dogs, geese, peacocks ... depending on local circumstances?

AJ


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## A J (Oct 16, 2014)

One additional thought. Do you have any irrigation on the farm? if you can keep one side of the perimeter wet enough to discourage that direction of ingress, it might simplify your problem.

AJ


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## Orphwitz (Sep 4, 2017)

Love the thread topic, so I don't mind attempting a resurrection here. 
As an aspiring homesteader, I consider security to be crucial to the whole purpose. I agree that: 
-one must know one's surroundings; and keep the high ground, whenever possible
-control of foot & vehicular traffic is vital
-one's abilities to effect any security measures depends on manpower
I think with such a small number of people, you'd be limited to defending your shelter and the line of sight surrounding it. I suggest directing traffic about the property with natural barriers and maintained trails. Keep a "dead zone" around your shelter so there is no source of cover for an intruder. Keep the landscaping around the house short, disallowing intruders from hiding in your bushes.
As for me, I plan on investing in an observation tower (this will likely double as a communications mast) and plenty of sandbags to shore up residential windows.
Related thought: a civilian pickup truck with a sandbag-lined bed (and cab?) and some shade would make a decent slightly elevated position for a perimeter defense.


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## Gauge0317 (Dec 4, 2016)

10-15 acres with 3 people is very challenging, I would recommend shrinking your perimeter to a manageable size. If that is not feasible for whatever reason I would look into some motion sensor...not premade over priced ones buy your own and make your own that fit your needs. There are lethality ways with previously spoken like a mousetrap and a shotgun round. Great topic though got me thinking about my own security thanks. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

this is my exact scenario.. no neighbors for 3 miles in any direction.... but 3 people?? I would consider it impossible, true defense would require 24-7-365 overwatch.. and sleep deprivation alone will do you in! I would recruit my neighbors, arm them. and various trip wire/solar lights and even thermals.. key is to see anyone coming from all directions.. is possible here, just not with 3 people..


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

paraquack said:


> Claymores will act as a good alarm. Unless you're a sound sleeper.


Command detonated weapons make lousy alarms.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

I have 30 acres that slopes so a lot of it is visible from the house. But not all so I do have to take a short walk to be able to view the portion I cannot see from a porch . One of the things I am thinking about getting is a drone with camera so I can monitor all fo it or fly out over to neighbors farms to monitor what was going on. 

I have barbed wire fences with a hot wire and Dogs that let me know when something is up . Most of my neighbors have livestock guard dogs . 

I have a road that runs east west that is very easy to monitor as it is down hill in both directions. Road is very narrow with a creek at the bottom of the hill so from the top you can see well and only have to cover the road itself . Crossing the creek, climbing the steep banks and crossing several fences is going to slow folks down. To approach other wise would be to do so on foot or four wheel vehicle moving a mile or more across open pasture that has several fences to go thru or climb. 

If a large group attacked to try and steal cattle or produce from the garden/orchard I think three or four could have a chance to disrupt and drive them off at least once after that I would think they would be back with the intent to kill us so they could take over the place , livestock, supplies and crops. 

Booby traps are not practical with live stock and guard dogs in my opinion .


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Jammer Six said:


> Command detonated weapons make lousy alarms.


You can set up a detonator, either trip wire or pressure to set off a Claymore.

All depends on what you put in one of the fuse wells, put the clacker initiated in the second.

You can stuff a M215 fuse in it and set a trip wire on the safety pin which is partially withdrawn.

Most intruders will not be expecting such, even an impro bursting charge, or trained to be aware.


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## Orphwitz (Sep 4, 2017)

RJAMES said:


> Booby traps are not practical with live stock and guard dogs in my opinion .


^^THIS
No sense wasting a good animal AND a trap. This is another good reason for a fenced perimeter immediately surrounding the shelter. In my opinion; traps are best employed to control one's terrain. Maybe the only source of cover near your shelter is rife with snares and barbed wire? Perhaps noise-making devices signal movement through gates and pathways? 
Would anyone care to comment on the value of leaving avenues purposefully to encourage more easily-monitored traffic? For example; leaving a well-cut path through a woods would encourage anyone to use the trail, regardless of intention. The same goes for cutting off roads. In theory; it should be easier to monitor and secure a given area when one knows where to look for intruders.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

Given your manpower, the key to defending the large area you have is going to be early detection of an intrusion, and you're going to have to live with false alarms, (ie animals straying into your farmland). The idea is that when an intruder is detected, you can summon the other 2 men to defend the area of incursion.

I would rule out dogs because you would need several, they would have to be trained, and you would have to chain them to the sectors they're protecting. I would also rule out motion or IR detectors because they can be triggered even by small animals (which would keep you three pretty busy for nothing), and they don't have a long enough range.

I assume you 3 will be working on the farm all day, so you can observe your perimeter while you're working. Chances are that intruders would attempt to enter between dusk and dawn, when they think they can't be seen. 

Here's what I'd do:
1) You need at least 2 shifts of night guards between dusk and the time you all come out to work.
2) If your house doesn't overlook the full perimeter of the property you're guarding, I'd create an observation tower in a central location for the night guards.
3) Your night guards should have an IR night scope to observe the perimeter. (This will cost some serious money.)
4) The night guard should be able to alert the 2 sleeping men. (This could be done with 2-way radios, or a gunshot)
5) You can string sections of your perimeter with noisemakers that the night guard can hear, to alert the night guard where the intrusion occurred. He could look through his scope, and if the trespassers appeared to be human, he could alert the other 2 men. (Regarding the noisemaker, the line should be invisible in full moonlight, meaning that it should be either black or clear. And it should be easily reset if it was breached by an animal.)


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Know your land, high low spots even flat land has places to conceal those approaching. Good Dog they know 1/2 mile away someone is around. When time to lock down comes you need enough people to cover all duties. range cards to cover ever inch of the land. Back to know your land , know how to move on it unseen.
Don't just make range cards put out your markers can you hit a target at those point work on it. Once you learn to shoot hardest part is getting range right good range cards take the guess work out.
Good dogs this does not mean mean nasty ones . Working dogs are best. Never rule out good dogs . You won't beat mine. Dogs are to alert you more than anything. A chained dog is a dead dog.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

I just remembered a tripwire mechanism I plan to use with my much-smaller "yard", that might be useful to you.

It consists of 3 parts:
1) strong fishing line. (strung just below waist height)
2) a fire alarm for each sector (set to go off by touching 2 wires together)
3) a clothes pin for each fire alarm (The pincers can be wired as the contacts using aluminum foil wrapped around them, and connected to the 2 contact wires. A piece of plastic connected to one end of the fishing line is inserted between the two clothespin pincers, preventing their contact. When the tripwire is nuged, the plastic is pulled out and the alarm goes off.)

A few nice things about this type of alarm is that it's loud, continuous, the batteries last a LONG time, and it's easily re-settable. Chances are the alarm would scare the intruders away before you got there.

If you use alarms on your perimeter, have the first night guard check they're working as the first thing he does. Also, if you use a tower, it only needs to be high enough to accurately survey the perimeter.

On another topic, I tried to imagine myself entering your property to steal vegetables, and I realized that my suggestion would not stop repeat pilfering of your gardens. Once I knew you had a tripwire, I would just go under it next time. Even if the alarm went off, I could probably grab a lot of stuff before you showed up, -unless you were shooting at me from the guard post.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

TGus I am not being mean when I say this you list Boston suburb. You are preaching to people that have lived most if not all of their life out side a city limit sign. People that have had their Dog or dogs walking with them most of the time. People who's Dogs have the run of the property they are not chained or locked up. Add to that fair number of them the only time they really left this life style was serving in the US military again large number in the infantry not some tech desk job. We have already lived as if SHTF . We live in a world you know little about. Just as your world in the hell whole of a city is foreign to us.
I do not think you understand just how loyal and effective the right dog can be.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

thepeartree said:


> I am hoping that I will see some creative (i.e. beyond pungee sticks) perimeter defense. And I want to hear about how someone plans to defend a farm-size area. Yes, that may mean no close neighbors. There's your scenario: not more than 3 people with guns, farm acres, defend the perimeter. If we are all lucky, we may need to cover this as we try to keep the food production secure.


Like a lot of people have mentioned you have to have more people. I really suggest you open the farm up to being a retreat. You can go to the various prepper forums and they usually have the states listed you can place an ad there. Check out preppergroups.com they are a prepper networking site. They also have a forum there and I am also a moderator there. Good people just like here. You need to set up protocols on how you are going to vette a prospect. Also who and what experiences and training you want to accept.

If it is WROL then you need to think like guerrilla warfare. Also consider some of the features of a Vietnam era firebase and how it was constructed. Need sandbags? Those grain bags you get for the animals from the feed mill make really great sandbags. Don't like the color then spray paint them.

You have to have an observation post (OP) and/or a listening post (LP). You need to know what is going on before it happens. A LP/OP needs to have a direct communication to the command post. Something good about a OP/LP is that they can detonate key booms to prevent or slow an attack.

A ditch was recommended and I disagree. It will allow an enemy a low elevation spot to lay in when under fire. A good way to slow an enemy and keep them standing so you can shoot them is to hang fishing hooks securely with heavy line from tree branches so the hooks are at different heights. Can you imagine running to an attack and then all of a sudden your hooked in the head and pulled backwards. Something else works really good is caltrops. Look on YouTube there are some videos showing you how to make them. All you need is nails and a welder. Throw the caltrops in any depressions or any area you want to deny an enemy force. Nails in a piece of plywood board provide a similar use. Cant really tell you how to make booms. But you can email me and I can send you a Word document with tips.


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