# Christian Warriors... or... When to NOT turn the other cheek



## WoadWarrior (Oct 10, 2012)

I've noticed a growing trend over the past year and some comments on the recent "hobbies" thread sort of drove the point home, at least enough that it made me want to discuss it here. 

I've always just assumed that the vast majority of Christians were the "peace first" or "turn the other cheek" types and always thought I was just different. I've considered myself unusual in that I wouldn't hesitate a microsecond to kill someone who was threatening myself or my family. But it appears that my problem is just that I never asked. I've only been (more) public about prepping for about a year now... and have been slowly learning that most of my Christian friends are extremely well armed and are very prepared (or are diligently working to get that way.) Then, over the last few months, I've seen numerous individuals who have expressed both a Christian and a Prepper background on this forum... and I have to say that I am very pleased to learn that I am not alone in this.

I realize we will all have to internalize our beliefs and accept any consequences for our actions when we are faced with those questions that often get posted here: Would you feed a family that never prepared and has nothing to offer? If traveling, would you walk past an abandoned young girl begging for food or take her with you? Etc....

I realize we would all try to help our fellow man if the situation allowed it with acceptable or no consequences. But... it's when we need to turn the other cheek 180 degrees and walk away that interests me. I'm curious about the scriptural verses that support the concept of prepping. For example, I apply John 15:2 to prepping and figure that a family that didn't prepare equates to a branch that didn't bear fruit and should be cut off and allowed to wither away (and any example should assume that helping them in some way is a detriment to myself or my family.) I also accept that my friends and family may need some "pruning" so that we prosper. I realize that "God helps those that help themselves" is not actually a bible verse... but it sort of rings true to me. Of course, I can always counter that by taking Prov 28:26 slightly out of context... "He who trusts in himself is a fool..." :mrgreen: 

Seriously though, does anyone have any examples of verses that support the idea of prepping or ones that help solve the question of when it might be appropriate to "NOT" turn the other cheek and place them in your sights instead?


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Cant think of any verses that I can quote to back up my thoughts and opinions.

I do think that a majority of Christians are of the peace first or turn the other cheek types. But I am of the opinion that too many take that too literally. While I think God wants us to be humble and to show patience, mercy and compassion, I am not convinced that God wanted you to be a door mat to be walked all over at will or to die needlessly. Its hard to do Gods work when your not of the earth to live his example for the rest to see.

Good post though...might make for a good discussion Sunday tho. There is bound to be some folks there that can "quote" much better than I and perhaps mention a few good quotes for reference. Might turn into a pretty thought provoking discussion.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

First, I BELIEVE..and am proud to say so, I dont bring it up often, but I am.
Second, I try to turn the other cheek, but as you said, dont endanger my family, or friends.
Third, I would try to help any child, being hopefully carefull of a trap, Its not a childs fault if someone didnt provide for her. And the future is our children.
As for verses, I know very little, I have to admit.


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## JPARIZ (Feb 25, 2013)

11th Commandment... Thou shalt keep they religion to thyself.


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## sbasacco (Sep 10, 2012)

Definately food for thought....I am not so sure that deep down in the recesses of our beings that we could let someone starve and go off to die knowingly. I am not saying give them the farm, but I would do what I could afford to do in time of crisis and let them go knowing that I did the best that I could. I am also aware that you cannot save everyone either.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Luke 22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword. ASV

Jesus was not a pacifist.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Luke 22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword. ASV
> 
> Jesus was not a pacifist.


You are quite correct. 
For a number of years I struggled with my part in the Vietnam war, specifically some of my actions. I found some measure of peace after attending bible studies and doing my own research into God, soldiers, war, etc. 
I ultimately became involved in Pointman International Ministries to help fellow vets.
The bible is full of references, both Old and New Testament. Somewhere at the house I have a long list of verses I found.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Luke 22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword. ASV
> 
> Jesus was not a pacifist.


Add to that: Mark 12:17 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

1. Jesus was not a pacifist, . . .

2. Jesus knew and approved that we need to survive in this world until His return, . . . and asked us only to separate the requirements of the world from the requirements of His in that day to day life. He also approved and provided a "basic instructions before leaving earth" book: the Bible, for us to have, read, enjoy, and follow to the best of our individual circumstances.

Mother Theresa could never have accomplished her desired mission with an M60 in her left hand any more than Billy Graham could have evangelized the masses he did with a NYSE ticker tape machine in his hotel room 24/7.

We lesser mortals are not tasked with the responsibilites they had, but we are tasked with the responsibilites of ourselves and our families, and to that end, the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth also gives us another very pointed statement: 1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

Not all will agree, . . . but I truly accept the standard that within the word "provide" comes housing, clothing, food, shelter, instruction, and protection. I was tasked with providing for them, . . . and will as long as I humanly can.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## jc-hunter (Nov 13, 2012)

I am a Christian and basically I can tell you that there is goodness in the world and also evil. I will do my best to kindle and foster goodness, truth , integrity, and courage. But , at the same time, I will not hesitate to eliminate elements of evil. One of the things that has brought the world to this point is " grey area". Man prospers much better in a world of 'black and white", or in other words, "a line in the sand", or 'yes or no". Not "maybe , if-." Grey area only allows for excuses and failures. An example of "grey area" is "political correctness". This keeps people from really speaking their minds. I believe the line in the sand is approaching quickly. And in the end , we will be better for it.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

WoadWarrior said:


> does anyone have any examples of verses that..help solve the question of when it might be appropriate to "NOT" turn the other cheek and place them in your sights instead?


When they came to arrest Jesus, his righthand man Peter whipped out his sword and whacked the high priest's flunkey across the head with it, slicing off his ear.
_*"Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear"-John 18:10*_

Jesus told Peter off for doing it, but the fact remains he allowed him to carry it in the first place, probably as a deterrent to muggers on their travels.
So if a saint (Peter) toted a weapon and DIDN'T turn the other cheek I'd think we can do the same IF the situation warrants it.
None of us want to turn nasty unless we HAVE to. Al Capone summed it up nicely with- _"If somebody messes wid me, I'm a-gonna mess wid him!"_ 
Heck if we'd turned the other cheek in WW2 Hitler would have been in London and the Japanese in Washington..

_*"Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath..
The Lord is mustering an army for war. They come from faraway lands, 
from the ends of the heavens, the Lord and the weapons of his wrath, 
to destroy the whole country.. and destroy the sinners within it" -Isaiah 13:2-9*_



















After capturing Baghdad International Airport-


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## 9UC (Dec 21, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Luke 22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword. ASV Jesus was not a pacifist.





rice paddy daddy said:


> You are quite correct. For a number of years I struggled with my part in the Vietnam war, specifically some of my actions. I found some measure of peace after attending bible studies and doing my own research into God, soldiers, war, etc. I ultimately became involved in Pointman International Ministries to help fellow vets. The bible is full of references, both Old and New Testament. Somewhere at the house I have a long list of verses I found.


For several months now, I have used the above scripture as part of my signature line on a couple of gun forums I frequent. Had a retired L.A. LEO as a Bible Study leader who first brought that particular verse to my attention. I carry, even at church, and I think he had spotted it the first day I attended.

BTW, I don not talk religion, I talk of the Lord Jesus Christ. My feeling that the greater part of the woes of not only our society, but the world in general, is that there far too many believers in of an "11th Commandment". I find that I'm not impressed with it. Since WWII we, as a nation, have striven to take God out of our society and replace it with nothing or the likes of what we now refer to as a government. No, I'm not religious, I don't have religion, I am a Christian and therefore it is a part of who and what I am because of "I Am"


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

9UC said:


> For several months now, I have used the above scripture as part of my signature line on a couple of gun forums I frequent. Had a retired L.A. LEO as a Bible Study leader who first brought that particular verse to my attention. I carry, even at church, and I think he had spotted it the first day I attended.
> 
> BTW, I don not talk religion, I talk of the Lord Jesus Christ. My feeling that the greater part of the woes of not only our society, but the world in general, is that there far too many believers in of an "11th Commandment". I find that I'm not impressed with it. Since WWII we, as a nation, have striven to take God out of our society and replace it with nothing or the likes of what we now refer to as a government. No, I'm not religious, I don't have religion, I am a Christian and therefore it is a part of who and what I am because of "I Am"


I could only "like" your post, since there is no button for "hip! hip! hooray!"
Well said, my friend.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

9UC said:


> ...I don't have religion, I am a Christian and therefore it is a part of who and what I am because of "I Am"


Yeah, Jesus simply wants pals like he said- _"*You're my friends if you follow me. I don't call you servants, but I call you friends"- (John 15:15)*_










In his autobiography "Baptism of Fire" about his life in the SAS regiment, Frank Collins tells how they were surprised to find a small well-thumbed Bible among the contents of a colleagues rucksack who'd been killed in action, because none of them suspected he was into Jesus.
The moral is that you don't have to go to church or be baptised or any razzmatazz like that to be a pal of Jesus.

In fact a lot of churchgoers are not his pals at all, we know that because he said so himself- _"Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, *get away from me*" (Matt 7:21-23)_
I come up against them all the time in religious discussion forums and it's great fun kicking their butts..

Jesus said_-"You have *one* teacher, *me*" (Matt 23:10)_
and he can be found easily enough in just a simple gospel like this costing just a few pennies, we don't need organised religion to act as middlemen between us and him!


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

WoadWarrior said:


> ....does anyone have any examples of verses that support the idea of prepping?


Jesus speaking of the end of the world in Mark ch 13-

_"Wars, rumours of wars, false christs, earthquakes, famines, persecutions, darkened sun and moon, falling stars, shaken planets.
Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequalled from the beginning until now, and never to be equalled again.
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
*Be on guard! Be alert*! You do not know when that time will come.
What I say to you, I say to everyone: '*Watch*!"_


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

As a pastor, . . . there are some conflicts inside that most other folks don't have to deal with.

But one conflict I came to terms with a long time ago, . . . the United States of America does NOT figure in the Exekiel / Daniel / Matthew / Mark / Luke / Revelation prophesies, . . . or at least it is not apparent if she does.

That being said, . . . we will have to come down a notch or two in our "world" standing and ability, . . . and I'm not sure how that will be accomplished.

I'm just making sure I understand that if it happens on MY watch, . . . it will be over my objections, . . . however dire they may become.

We DO live in exciting times, . . . and that is what this forum is all about, . . . makes life interesting.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Glad to see so many of us here.
once a "close friend" told me he didn't believe in Jesus, and I explained to him that I would try and help him believe, and I promised him, "with your last breath you will want to believe" and that he would be buried a GOD fearing individual. I wasnt there when his nephew shot and killed him, but I was there -at the church- to bury him and grieve with his family, and to pray that he made the journey to HEAVEN. 
Yes, I know I dont usually talk politics or religion, buit as the man stated above, the govt has repeatedly and succesfully stripped away at GOD, and has tried to seperate people from GOD. Doesn't the constitution gaurantee "GOD GIVEN RIGHTS"?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

JPARIZ said:


> 11th Commandment... Thou shalt keep they religion to thyself.


That is in direct violation of the Great Commission, which is more important than your addition. Sorry!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

There are many examples of being prepared. I think most of us know them. I also believe that there is no reason to believe Jesus was a wimp, as he is often painted for nefarious reasons.

Finally, there was reason for selling a cloak to purchase a sword if one was needed, and having two was good.

I do not want to kill another human being, but that is not up to me. Thou Shalt Not _Murder_ (proper transliteration), and I won't, but that does not mean I will not kill if forced.

I pray none of us have to resort to violence, whether it be in self defense or in the face of tyranny, but that is, as I said, not always up to us.


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## kyletx1911a1 (Jul 16, 2012)

No that i can find that the Lord said you could not defend yourself 
Or your family, God went to war many many times.
He fought evil, as we must. He does not tolerate a coward 
But for me i will turn the other cheek, as long as you are not trying to kill me or mine.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Denton said:


> There are many examples of being prepared. I think most of us know them. I also believe that there is no reason to believe Jesus was a wimp, as he is often painted for nefarious reasons.
> 
> Finally, there was reason for selling a cloak to purchase a sword if one was needed, and having two was good.
> 
> ...


And He sure didn't like the money changers and various others who were defiling His Father's temple. Jesus used more than words to run them out.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> ....But one conflict I came to terms with a long time ago, . . . the United States of America does NOT figure in the Exekiel / Daniel / Matthew / Mark / Luke / Revelation prophesies, . . . or at least it is not apparent if she does....


Not by name certainly, but many prophecies can apply to many nations today, including America. And many prophecies are "recyclable", for example when God uses armies to topple tyrants many prophecies apply again and again from ancient times right up to now and into the future-

*"The spider taketh hold with her hands, and is in kings palaces"- Proverbs 30:28 KJV*
US troops near one of Saddam Hussein's abandoned palaces in Bayji,Iraq 2008-


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## Verteidiger (Nov 16, 2012)

My personal favorite, from the book of Ephesians:

Eph 6:10	Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God....

This is the verse many cite for soldiers returning from war, from the book of 2nd Timothy:

2Ti 2:3	Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.


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## Makotoseven (Mar 22, 2013)

JPARIZ said:


> 11th Commandment... Thou shalt keep they religion to thyself.


Jesus actually says the opposite:

And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. -Mark 16:15

The "turn the other cheek" is regarding an issue of pride, its a call to humility.

There is nothing humble about letting your family be victims when you could have prevented it.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

Lucky Jim said:


> When they came to arrest Jesus, his righthand man Peter whipped out his sword and whacked the high priest's flunkey across the head with it, slicing off his ear.
> _*"Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear"-John 18:10*_
> 
> Jesus told Peter off for doing it, but the fact remains he allowed him to carry it in the first place, probably as a deterrent to muggers on their travels.
> ...


Jesus is the Ultimate Warrior. Which furthered the Great Commission? An ear on the ground or an ear back in place?


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## jc-hunter (Nov 13, 2012)

[QUOTE=Verteidiger, A version of your post that I pray is:

In the name of Jesus, and by His blood, I put on the helmet of Salvation. I put on the breastplate of His Righteousness. I put on the Girdle of Truth. My feet are shod with the preparation of the Gospel of Peace. In my left hand I take the shield of faith, wherewith I may quench all the firey darts of the wicked. And in my right hand I take the sword of the Spirit, which is God's Word. And I cut myself free from everything that is not of God's spirit. I wash my mind in the blood of Jesus, and I march behind the baracade of the Cross of Calvary. Lead by His Spirit and cleansed in His blood, Father into Thy hands I commit my spirit , soul, and body. In the name of Jesus, Amen.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Ok, since it hasn't been said

There are many examples of prepping for disasters in the bible, and more often than not it was GOD that gave the order or vision to do it.

1. Gen 6: Noah was told to build an ark and stocked it with food for his family and the animals God sent. Isn't is funny that Noah the prepper was mocked by the people in the land, but after the rain started falling Noah didn't drop the doors and save anyone. 

2. Gen 41: Joseph was given the interpretation for Pharaoh in Egypt warning of a coming famine and encourage them to store grain for 7 years of plenty and prepare for 7 years of draught. In this example the food was distributed to the citizens and foreigners but they were charged for it and it make Pharaoh very wealthy.

3. Exodus 12: When the Jews plundered Egypt and left, they took only silver, gold and fine clothing. In essence God was encouraging them to stockpile precious metals (clothing was a form of currency then). In this case God provided food and water.

Proverbs 6:6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise!
7 It has no commander, no overseer or ruler,
8 yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest.
9 How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep?
10 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest—
11 and poverty will come on you like a thief and scarcity like an armed man.

1 Tim 5:8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Prov 27:12 The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty.

My plan is to organize my neighborhood into a community, that is what I believe fits in with my Christian beliefs. Love your neighbor as yourself is one of the 2 greatest commandments and I am taking that literally. For those that have preps it will be a relatively easy time, for those that do not, they will become the laborers for the group. I can raise grain and vegetables with a gravity feed irrigation system but it will take a lot of work. Water will need to be hauled, wood cut, defenses established, all of these things will gain you a spot at the table. I don't know exactly how this will all work out until I see the scope of the problem, but I do have a preprinted booklet that I will give to my neighbors when it becomes time. I preprint it in case a EMP takes out the ability to print, if it is not a EMP type event I can customize it and still distribute it. 

First off I know all my neighbors, start there if nothing else.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

There's this interesting passage in Matt 15 where Jesus at first *refuses pointblank to help a woman*, but then changes his mind-

_"Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly."
Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs."
"Yes it is, Lord," she said. "Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table."
Then Jesus said to her, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed at that moment"_

It's interesting because it shows that Jesus had to ration his power to those who needed it most (Israel), rather than drain himself by dishing it out to every foreign freeloader that came along, so in a SHTF world I suppose we could follow suit and use our prep supplies to help only ourselves and immediate family with a clear conscience.

PS- just to clarify, when Jesus said he was sent only to Israel, he meant it in the context that he was sent to plant his spiritual seeds there, from where they'd grow and spread all over the whole world like they have done, it didn't mean he thought Israel was any better than anywhere else.
He made it clear he was saving the _*whole world*_- "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."- John 3:17


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## Sr40ken (Nov 21, 2012)

I'm a Christian and there have been some great Bible quotes, but I'll just add, there's a big difference in killing and murder. One saves your life the other may send you to hell.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Sr40ken said:


> I'm a Christian and there have been some great Bible quotes, but I'll just add, there's a big difference in killing and murder. One saves your life the other may send you to hell.


Yeah, for example Hitler and his nazi cronies had to be taken out, serves them right.
"The breadbaskets looked quite pretty floating slowly down in the night sky" my mother told me, referring to the clusters of target marker flares dropped by the Luftwaffe during a bombing raid on Leicester (England) in 1940 when she lived there when she was 18. She and her family survived without a scratch but others didn't..
Later Hitler also fired flying bombs and rockets at London, and was developing an atomic bomb and a transatlantic bomber to carry it.
So the Allies had to do D-Day to stop him and his chums and restore the peace.
_"Blessed are the peacemakers"_ said Jesus, there ya go..

"I completely lack the bombers capable of round-trip flights to New York with a 5-ton bomb load. I would be extremely happy to possess such a bomber which would at last stuff the mouth of arrogance across the sea!"-Hermann Goering 1938



























Nazi study of the effects of an atomic blast on NY-


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## WoadWarrior (Oct 10, 2012)

Thanks All. This has been quite an interesting discussion... and I thank you guys for the verses and your personal perspectives. Now... time for some research, reading, reflection and prayer.


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## breakingcontact (Mar 25, 2013)

Makotoseven said:


> There is nothing humble about letting your family be victims when you could have prevented it.


1 Timothy talks about the qualifications to be a pastor. I think all Christian men should examine this and it certainly covers providing for your family in a SHTF situation as well.


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## burkecj (Mar 27, 2013)

> I've always just assumed that the vast majority of Christians were the "peace first" or "turn the other cheek" types and always thought I was just different. I've considered myself unusual in that I wouldn't hesitate a microsecond to kill someone who was threatening myself or my family.


I don't think it's unusual at all. In my experience Christians are _always _the first people, not the last, to cheer a war; they are also (again, in my experience) among the first to resort to violence or to wish violence upon those they hate, and they hate often and easily. I'm not saying other faiths don't have similar problems, and I'm not saying that these qualities are necessarily "problems" all the time (violence, and even hate, can be justified), but the Christians I have met who actually shun violence are very few and far between.


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## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

im a huge believer and an active seeker of HIS face. im pretty groovey about everything, but definately an infadel. im super nice and am not a right fighter. i have a different way about me.
i feel god has put it in my heart and thoughts to be ready... so i do as im urged.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> And He sure didn't like the money changers and various others who were defiling His Father's temple.


And the definitive word in that sentence is "temple". Many in our church have used that as a bludgeon against all capitalism. I do not believe Jesus was against making money any more than he was against self-preservation. But I believe he was strongly against making money at the expense of faith.

As a side note: If we keep going down this path you guys are going to force me to re-read Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will", which I have not read in almost 20 years (but should). :smile:


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## bennettvm (Jan 5, 2013)

Look up cleansing of the temple. Jesus made a whip from cords and used it to remove the bankers/lenders from the temple. Far from what I would call a turn the other cheek kind of guy.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

burkecj said:


> I don't think it's unusual at all. In my experience Christians are _always _the first people, not the last, to cheer a war; they are also (again, in my experience) among the first to resort to violence or to wish violence upon those they hate, and they hate often and easily. I'm not saying other faiths don't have similar problems, and I'm not saying that these qualities are necessarily "problems" all the time (violence, and even hate, can be justified), but the Christians I have met who actually shun violence are very few and far between.


Are you out of your mind?!?!

The last war that was waged in the "name of Christianity" ended in 1291 with the last Crusade. I guess you could say the American Revolution had a religious component to it since the British Bishops refused to ordain any American Bishops and that would have spelled the end of the Anglican Church in America. But they solved that one without bloodshed.

So tell me, was it Catholics that drove airplanes into the World Trade Center on 9/11? How about those Methodists that blew up the Pentagon the same day? Was it Lutherans that shot up Ft Hood? But I guess it was a Christian that blew up Oklahoma City - OOPS! He was a devout ATHEIST! But, I am sure you will say the Buddhists and Shintos are the great peace-loving people - Tell that to the family of the Pearl Harbor victims. But the Hindus - yeah, ask somebody that was in India in 1948 and watched them (literally) chop the heads off the separatists.

But coming in at #1 in the "all time hit parade of murderous thugs" is:... The Atheists and the agnostics. Yep - your guys Mao, Stalin and Hitler murdered more people than all of the other despots of history combined. Of course that does not include the Khmer Rouge, Castro, Che or any of your other lesser known heroes. (Do you have a Che T-Shrit? If not, you should get one; all the hipsters have them.)

Are American Christians pissed? You bet we are! Europe has gone mostly secular (including Rome). Central America is a cesspool. This is/was the only place we had left on the planet where we could practice our faith the way we wanted to - without interference from you or the government. Now idiots like you try to lay a guilt trip on us for our beliefs? Eff you Jack!!!!


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## burkecj (Mar 27, 2013)

> Are you out of your mind?!?!
> 
> The last war that was waged in the "name of Christianity" ended in 1291 with the last Crusade. I guess you could say the American Revolution had a religious component to it since the British Bishops refused to ordain any American Bishops and that would have spelled the end of the Anglican Church in America. But they solved that one without bloodshed.
> 
> ...


No offense, but it sounds like you have an axe to grind here, and it sounds like these were canned talking points, the kind that pop up in internet "debate" forums and chain emails from time to time. Comes with the territory, I guess. Anyway, maybe you're comfortable lumping complete strangers in with Mao and Stalin just because they have an opinion that's different from yours. I don't treat strangers that way, even if I think I might disagree with them, and I'm not into the "worldview peeing contest" game. But to each his own. We all have our hobbies. If anything, it speaks to the point: running head-first and saying "eff you" to somebody you don't even know, no questions asked. Very Christian.

Would anyone here, especially veterans, actually disagree that Christians are the first and loudest in supporting our more recent wars? I doubt it. Now do a thought experiment. Try to imagine your average evangelical congregation in the United States. Now imagine what the average member of that congregation would wish upon your average homosexual, immigrant, Muslim, etc... is "peaceful" the first word that comes to mind?

Yeah. Didn't think so.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

burkecj said:


> No offense, but it sounds like you have an axe to grind here, and it sounds like these were canned talking points, the kind that pop up in internet "debate" forums and chain emails from time to time. Comes with the territory, I guess. Anyway, maybe you're comfortable lumping complete strangers in with Mao and Stalin just because they have an opinion that's different from yours. I don't treat strangers that way, even if I think I might disagree with them, and I'm not into the "worldview peeing contest" game. But to each his own. We all have our hobbies. If anything, it speaks to the point: running head-first and saying "eff you" to somebody you don't even know, no questions asked. Very Christian.


You were the one stating " In my experience Christians are always the first people, not the last, to cheer a war; they are also (again, in my experience) among the first to resort to violence or to wish violence upon those they hate, and they hate often and easily." She answers you statement and you call her a hater.

She points out realities and you call her a hater. I know a self proclaimed pagan who does the same thing. This person also stated that Christians are the 1st to be violent. I guess Inor should have had the decency not to muddy the argument with facts.



burkecj said:


> Would anyone here, especially veterans, actually disagree that Christians are the first and loudest in supporting our more recent wars? I doubt it. Now do a thought experiment. Try to imagine your average evangelical congregation in the United States. Now imagine what the average member of that congregation would wish upon your average homosexual, immigrant, Muslim, etc... is "peaceful" the first word that comes to mind?
> 
> Yeah. Didn't think so.


So it's Christians that are calling for a holy war against all infidels? Hmmm... Was that Billy Graham that preached all non-believers need to be converted or killed? All this time I thought those beliefs came from the Quoran, so your saying this is actually from the Bible?



burkecj said:


> No offense, but it sounds like you have an axe to grind here, and it sounds like these were canned talking points, the kind that pop up in internet "debate" forums and chain emails from time to time. Comes with the territory, I guess. Anyway, maybe you're comfortable lumping complete strangers in with Mao and Stalin just because they have an opinion that's different from yours. I don't treat strangers that way, even if I think I might disagree with them, and I'm not into the "worldview peeing contest" game. But to each his own. We all have our hobbies. If anything, it speaks to the point: running head-first and saying "eff you" to somebody you don't even know, no questions asked. Very Christian.


Yeah, lumping strangers in with Mao and Stalin is mean. Those strangers that flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon were nothing more than people pushed by those evil Christians. Same with the people who attacked the Cole. McVay was pushed by Christians. Soooo many examples of evil deeds by Christians. Maybe Obama was correct when he said that there are many who cling to guns and Bibles. Evil, mean people.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

burkecj said:


> Would anyone here, especially veterans, actually disagree that Christians are the first and loudest in supporting our more recent wars? I doubt it. Now do a thought experiment. Try to imagine your average evangelical congregation in the United States. Now imagine what the average member of that congregation would wish upon your average homosexual, immigrant, Muslim, etc... is "peaceful" the first word that comes to mind?
> 
> Yeah. Didn't think so.


You obviously know nothing about the Christian faith.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

burkecj said:


> Now do a thought experiment. Try to imagine your average evangelical congregation in the United States. Now imagine what the average member of that congregation would wish upon your average homosexual, immigrant, Muslim, etc... is "peaceful" the first word that comes to mind?


Yep - Just last Sunday our Pastor gave a 20 minute sermon titled: "Don't let them funny-soundin' queer feriners into your house to redecorate your livingroom!"

What color is the sky in your world?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I have served on a multi-faith panel that was formed to aid in celebrating the similarities in the many faiths.
I was disappointed to find that it was easier for "people of faith" to condemn others than it was to agree that we each seek and serve the creator.
The most adaptive people on the panel were Jews, then the non-denominational ministers (like me) and then Pagans (although they seem less tolerant of the different off-shoots of Wicca). 
I am not what most would call "fundamental" nor am I "liberal" but I do see the Creator as large and powerful enough to tolerate the different names used by different religions and nationalities. Conservative Christians and Muslims seem to be the least tolerant of different names - expousing that you must believe in the name they use for the Creator or you are against the Creator and a collaborator of the devil. 
I am well versed in the history of the Christian and Muslim religious wars and the history of the Hebrew battles for the "Holy Land". 
We are each born with a right and will to defend ourselves and our loved ones. That is a gift from the Creator and it is our duty to do so when it is necessary. I have no fear of dying but I also know that if I am being called there is nothing I can do to stop it. I will fight to save those who are with me until the Creator takes it out of my hands. Part of that requires me to help those who will accept it and walk away from those who will not.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

How'd my dad say it? "If ya don't believe in my religion, you're all going to hell, and I'm going to help you on you're way!" As you can tell my day wasn't what you'd call tolerant. Until he had his first heart attack. Then all of a sudden he seemed to understand, our beliefs are our beliefs.


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## breakingcontact (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm evangelical. Not fundamentalist. I don't hate people. That's a common false belief about serious Christians and unfortunately some of the loudest Christians are hateful.

I don't hate people but I hate their sin as much as I hate mine.

I am living an increasingly better life now through faith and I hope and encourage them to find that same peace.

Also a lot of confusion between calling out someones sin vs judging them. If I talk to someone about their transgressions its not judging their eternal soul, it is pointing our their temporal weaknesses and how it is holding them back from living life fully.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

You see, I don't feel qualified to call something that someone else is doing a sin. I don't know their mind and I certainly don't know the mind of the Creator. I can fill my time trying to improve me - without trying to get others to improve themselves. "God's work" is best left to God - we are not strong or wise enough to do it.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Preppers/Survivalists might like to try Christianity because "mindmelding" with Jesus logs us onto his power which begins downloading into us, it's a POWER thing..
Bear Grylls said "My Christian faith is my backbone".

"Everybody tried to﻿ touch Jesus because power was coming from him" (Luke 6:12-19)
Jesus said -"Someone touched me, I know that power has gone out from me." (Luke 8:46)
And we too can "touch" him to get a power download by just mumbling a few words such as "Jesus remember me" when we're tired, lonely, fed up..

Works for others too-
On Christmas Eve 1968 the crew of Apollo 8 quoted from Genesis as they orbited the moon- "We are now approaching lunar sunrise and, for all the people back on Earth, the crew of Apollo 8 has a message that we would like to send to you- "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."

"God bless you" -Neil Armstrong in a TV broadcast from Apollo 11 thanking the spacecraft builders and technicians

John Glenn said from space- "To look out at this kind of creation out here and not believe in God is to me impossible, it just strengthens my faith"

And Roger Chaffee said of the view of Earth- "The world itself looks cleaner and so much more beautiful. Maybe we can make it that way, the way God intended it to be"

Nearer home, Edmund Hilary wrote- "I buried a small crucifix in the snow on the summit of Everest as Sir John Hunt had asked me to do"

"Thank God for everything, without him none of this would have been possible"- Usain Bolt, fastest man in the world

In the TV series "Escape to the Legion" the recruits were allowed to keep one personal item in their lockers, and Grylls chose his Bible (circled)-









Grylls in his SAS days-









This verse is what sets true christians apart-
*"We fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal" (2 Cor 4:18)*









In other words Christians don't take the world seriously and therefore don't get drawn into its stress and worry..
_"You were dead when you followed the ways of the world" (Eph 2:1/2)_


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

After his wild younger years Johnny Cash became a Christian and this song illustrates the POWER it gave him-


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## john10001 (Mar 20, 2013)

I think with this you need to break it down. Split it into two parts. I think for the most part when Jesus speaks of enemies he is talking of people, friends, relatives, others whom you may have disagreements with in your interpersonal relationships, and that we should try to turn the other cheek and rise above the argument, get past it. In the old testament by contrast this seems to mostly deal with traditional enemies e.g. standing armies marching against you, it also deals with criminals and how the state and you should respond to this threat or aggression. So that is the way I always look at it. You have it broken down into law for nations and then law for individuals.

Unfortunately a lot of mainstream Christians don't see the difference or perhaps don't study their bibles as much, only go to Church once in a while and don't really have a great understanding of the faith other than what they hear or are told by their minister. Some take this to extremes for example the Christians of Nigeria take turning the other cheek to such extremes that they could end up seeing their whole nation become islamicized and their own deaths, demise or forced conversions by the sword.

Jesus didn't say, "If someone rapes your wife, give them your daughter as well," or "if someone steals your car, offer them your house too." He commands that we love our neighbour as ourselves, not more than ourselves.

As far as the prepping side of things is concerned I think the Story of Joseph in Egypt is one of the big one's to look at and consider. Also the Jews escaping from Egypt and trusting in God to provide for them.

I think for sure you try as much as possible to help other fellow citizens, allies, people of God, the poor, the little abandoned girl in the example out in times of difficulty were you can, and you meet force and traditional enemies and aggression with any force necessary to subdue them.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

Two boys pushed an out house off the cliff. The next day their dad said who pushed the out house off the cliff an the boys sai we did it and their father beat the hell out of them. The boy reminded their dad about the story he told them of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree and not getting into trouble because he didn't tell a lie. In which their dad responded yes but George Washington's dad wasn't in that cherry tree. 

It is always easier to tell someone else they should turn the other cheek.


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## john10001 (Mar 20, 2013)

Inor said:


> Are you out of your mind?!?!
> 
> The last war that was waged in the "name of Christianity" ended in 1291 with the last Crusade. I guess you could say the American Revolution had a religious component to it since the British Bishops refused to ordain any American Bishops and that would have spelled the end of the Anglican Church in America. But they solved that one without bloodshed.
> 
> ...


Burkecj is certainly entitled to his/her opinion as wrong as it is. I think you may some good points Inor. I would actually argue that even the Crusades were not fought by Christians, perhaps maybe CINO's.

If Christianity promotes killing innocent people then Christianity must be questioned. If Islam promotes killing innocent people then Islam must be questioned. I can't see any other options.

Islam's Quran teaches, as Muslim governments are to be at war and carry arms against the world if the world rejects Islam. This is evident the moment one starts looking into the Quran. and is the main reason why Palestinian teenagers wrap themselves with explosives and blow up a Jewish bus, it is the main reason why Sheikh Omar Abdull-Rahman orders the bombing of American buildings in New York. The issue is not political only, but a commandment from Allah.

Some Muslims might object to the bombing of the World Trade Center building in New York, but no Muslim fundamentalist denies that Jihad (Holy War) is not a commandment by Allah. It is part of the Islamic pride that is evident in the world today.

The pen is part of the master plan of converting the world then the sword. To some westerners a suggestion that such a plan is in the making would be unlikely, but if you search for the words Muslim and Jihad in today's world, you will soon find that it is not a new word anymore, it is added daily to our newspapers, journals and English dictionaries.

What is the real fear Muslims have from Christian missionaries if Muslims are confident that Islam and the Quran shall stand on their own?

If Muslims believe that any logical mind can find the absolute truth the moment one reads the Quran. Then why should Muslims be "protected" from the Bible? Why do they need threats of death and fatwas to guard their beliefs if it is correct?

Can the mass murder in Sudan Africa be considered peace and justice? Why are Muslims throughout the whole world so determined on destroying Christianity? Why are Muslims throughout the whole world so determined on destroying the Jewish people in Israel?

Why are Muslims not fighting countries like Russia, China and Japan, which the majority are atheist?

While Muslims are looking forward to destroy Israel, lets look at some of these recent wars, take for instance the Soviet-Afghan war, at one time 80,000 Muslims were killed by the Soviets within 48 hours alone, and we ask: Why is there no condemnation by the Arab and Muslim world for all the Muslim blood spilt by the hands of the atheist Soviets?

Why is the hatred towards Jews in Israel while Muslims in Afghanistan were butchered by the masses from the Soviets?

Is it possible that the USSR (and now Russia) is the best friend to most Islamic and Arab nations? Since the USSR (now Russia) is the main weapon supplier for many of the Muslim and Arab governments. Why is it that every army of these nations carry Russian made AK47 rifles. Is it possible that the Muslims do not want to bite the hand that feeds them? Did Israel ever kill 80,000 Muslims within 48 hours?

The most ironic thing is that the destruction that went on in Afghanistan was caused by the Afghans themselves after defeating the Soviets.

In the Afghan capital every building in site was demolished, and the city was completely devastated. There was total destruction of the city. Every man's sword was upon his brother, and every faction claimed to be Muslim. The whole of Kabul was completely levelled.

Today we see the same thing elsewhere in the world, in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and elsewhere. More Muslim blood is split by the hands of other Muslims. Muslims are not on their own the problem but the actual religion Islam is especially when they follow it to the letter.

The Bible tells true believers to prepare for the Muslims for battle. It encourages them to be ready for the war, Muslims and others are about to announce;

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If one strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." (Luke 6:27-28).

In another verse in the Bible he foretells this persecution: "A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God." (John 16:2b).

Does that verse fit Muslims and Nazis, since the Nazis got the support of the Catholic to support the Nazis on their persecution to the Jews?

You might ask: Are not Catholics Christian?

I say: anyone who follows the teaching of Christ is a Christian, "He who has my commandments, and obeys them, it is he who loves me" (John 14:21).

But Anyone who claims to be Christian who goes around killing Muslims, Jews, and Protestants can hardly be called Christian.

A Christian follows Christ, that's why they call them Christians.

The principle that you follow should be the title that you hold. To be a Christian you must follow the Bible. And since the Bible does not promote the kind of violence that the Crusaders did, we must conclude that they did not follow good Christian principles. For that, they are responsible for their action, and not Christianity, which is the whole point we are trying to make.

In Islam, on the contrary, the Quran as proved is very different, it promotes killing unbelievers, it promotes subjugating Christians and Jews.

The Bible, on the other hand teaches Christians how to suffer: "Who is afraid of dying? Who is afraid of a threat from any quarter? Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or persecution...or danger of sword? As it is written: `For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.'" (Romans 8:27-35).

As a Christian I do not hate muslims, homosexuals or anyone else, even atheists and agnostics, these are people who are sinners just like anyone else, just like you and I, and people as Christians we are meant to love, support and try to help. Just because we do not hate them, but do disapprove of the practice and rightly condemn it, does not mean we are haters or homophobic as some may like to label us. We just recognise it for what it is according to our faith and God. I don't know of any Christian who wants war. It is something that as a nation you only go to as a last resort when all other avenues have failed.

In the Bible some people are so wicked that God commands their destruction because none good can be found amongst them. There are many people like this in the world today, a lot within terrorist groups and practicing terrorism. They have been around since ancient times. Final point is in the Balkans we were helping to stop a genocide against Muslims. As Christian nations, If we are haters and against Muslims, why would we have gone to their aid?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Remember that those who practice Islam are not all terrorists and not all terrorists practice Islam. There are fanatics within every faith and you should have your eyes open to the person - not their "faith".


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

John10001 - You appear to understand scripture, history and are able to write extremely well. Please post here more often!


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## David357 (Aug 12, 2019)

WoadWarrior said:


> Seriously though, does anyone have any examples of verses that support the idea of prepping or ones that help solve the question of when it might be appropriate to "NOT" turn the other cheek and place them in your sights instead?


The verses that tell us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek are given to us in the context of not taking revenge when someone insults or mocks us. We, as Christians, are not to return insult for insult and we are not to return evil for evil as a matter of revenge.

But that was never intended to be taken as a commandment not to defend ourselves and our families. The Bible does not teach pacifism. If you have to resort to violence as a matter of self-preservation when you are attacked and your life is in danger, or the lives and well-being of your family is in danger, there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits that.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

When I realized the Yazidi Christians were being slaughtered by ISIS on that mountain I would have been more than happy to puff ISIS militants were I still in the military/able to serve. I consider myself a Christian too. But my compassion goes only so far. A time to kill,a time to heal and all that. Unlike Sgt. Alvin York my opposition to killing has a pretty low bar. Sorry.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

When I was 6 or 7 my mother gave almost the same response when I asked why do we have war when we are commanded not to kill. You said it in far more succinct manner. Post#52.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

No need to be sorry, everyones threshold to correct behavior is different. One is no more right or wrong than the other. Only He can determine that.


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