# Citizens or police?



## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

Are american police officers still citizens? Cuz one of my coworkers was trying to tell me that they are not and i had no formal proof they are.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Yep that are citizens..but do not have full constitutional protections afforded to other citizens.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

What is your coworker's "formal proof" they are not?

Must they renounce their citizenship?

What if the police officer decides to vacation outside of the U.S.; must he obtain a passport like the rest of us?


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

Thats what i thought too but i needed to make sure...i know that back in the day there was no "police force". It was the citizens' duty to catch the criminals, and enforce the law.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

cobra246 said:


> Thats what i thought too but i needed to make sure...i know that back in the day there was no "police force". It was the citizens' duty to catch the criminals, and enforce the law.


Back in the day, we had the shire reeve, and he would utilize a posse made up of citizens when a force was needed.

As population centers got unwieldy, Sir Robert Peel's model was implemented.


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

So essentially they were citizens drafted for the purpose of a " watch" but later became a municipal extention of enforcement.


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## Butler Ford (Mar 5, 2015)

bigwheel said:


> Yep that are citizens..but do not have full constitutional protections afforded to other citizens.


Just curious, what protections are they denied?
BF


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

How is this even a question?
I know of no occupation that requires renouncement of citizenship.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

"*Cities are Hiring Non-citizen Immigrants as Police Officers"*

"Police departments across the country are looking to put immigrants on its workforce, USA Today reported. Most agencies require officers to be U.S. citizens, but some are allowing green card holders and other immigrants legally allowed to work in the country to join the ranks."

Cities Are Hiring Non-Citizen Immigrants As Police Officers | ThinkProgress

Yeah, nothing can go wrong here. Sheesh!


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

Kauboy said:


> How is this even a question?
> I know of no occupation that requires renouncement of citizenship.


Its not as much a question as much as a clarification of the facts...some people are ignorant or jus plain uninformed...such as my coworker.


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

sideKahr said:


> "*Cities are Hiring Non-citizen Immigrants as Police Officers"*
> 
> "Police departments across the country are looking to put immigrants on its workforce, USA Today reported. Most agencies require officers to be U.S. citizens, but some are allowing green card holders and other immigrants legally allowed to work in the country to join the ranks."
> 
> ...


Constitutionally speaking is that even legal?


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

cobra246 said:


> Constitutionally speaking is that even legal?


Who knows? Since when has a little thing like the Constitution bothered anyone lately?


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

Unfortunately you right.


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## SittingElf (Feb 9, 2016)

Don't really know about LEO's, but if they are like the military, then a separate set of rules exist.

Military members fall under the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), and as such, some rights are restricted that would normally be enjoyed by the general public. One clear example is Free Speech. Members of the military may not disparage elected leaders while in uniform or stating their opinions as active members of the US Military. They cannot be involved in political activity that promotes a particular candidate while in uniform, or identifying themselves as a military member.

Jury trials at court martial are also different, in that defendants can either pick a jury of their peers, or a jury of officers. Special Court Martials are those conducted by a military judge alone without a jury.

Many other rights, privileges, and other things are voluntarily given up while serving in the Military. Things like overtime, job choice, location choices and others.

I've never heard that Police Officers have anything similar to the UCMJ, but I could be wrong...(I have been once or maybe twice!)


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

Police are citizens like all the rest of us, they just hold a civil servant job.
I get agitated when I hear the police say something about civilians... they are civilians too


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

SittingElf said:


> Don't really know about LEO's, but if they are like the military, then a separate set of rules exist.
> 
> Military members fall under the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), and as such, some rights are restricted that would normally be enjoyed by the general public. One clear example is Free Speech. Members of the military may not disparage elected leaders while in uniform or stating their opinions as active members of the US Military. They cannot be involved in political activity that promotes a particular candidate while in uniform, or identifying themselves as a military member.
> 
> ...


They are not like the military in that regard. There is no UCMJ for police officers.


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

So when a police officer is in uniform, he is still a citizen but he is to be held to higher standards than the rest of tue populace due to the fact that they are public figures.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Something for pondering, though.

Why is it that a municipal or state cop would wear a federal flag patch on his shoulder? As we all know, flags are used to set jurisdiction.

Symbols, like words, mean things.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

cobra246 said:


> So when a police officer is in uniform, he is still a citizen but he is to be held to higher standards than the rest of tue populace due to the fact that they are public figures.


Well, he is an armed man, but with the force of law behind him, so I hope he holds himself to a higher standard. He also has probably taken an oath of office, which one would hope he respects.

Heck, when I'm armed (which is almost always these days) I hold myself to a higher standard.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I have to believe they are citizens and to hire a noncitizen for this job, one must be nuts or on crack.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Camel923 said:


> I have to believe they are citizens and to hire noncitizen a for this job, one must be nuts or on crack.


From the article:

"As USA Today explained, current policies vary across departments. At the Chicago police department, immigrants who can legally work in the United States are allowed to seek employment as officers. On its website, the Chicago Police Department indicates that it hires foreign citizens so long as they have an employment authorization document (EAD) that allows them to legally work in the country. Such immigrants include those granted temporary legal presence under the president's 2012 executive action known as the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program. But at the Cincinnati Police Department and Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, applicants must have a pending citizenship application on file. And at smaller departments in Burlington, Vermont and Boulder, Colorado, applicants have to at least be legal permanent residents."


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

cobra246 said:


> Its not as much a question as much as a clarification of the facts...some people are ignorant or jus plain uninformed...such as my coworker.


I hope your coworker is not responsible for operating heavy machinery.


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

Being a citizen of another country; as an officer of an american municipality you usually have to swear an oath of office to uphold the Constitution, does that mean they have violated their obligatory duty as a citizen in their home country?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

cobra246 said:


> Being a citizen of another country; as an officer of an american municipality you usually have to swear an oath of office to uphold the Constitution, does that mean they have violated their obligatory duty as a citizen in their home country?


I don't recall an oath of office which swears allegiance to the country, but rather swears that one will uphold and defend the laws of the land.


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## SittingElf (Feb 9, 2016)

cobra246 said:


> Being a citizen of another country; as an officer of an american municipality you usually have to swear an oath of office to uphold the Constitution, does that mean they have violated their obligatory duty as a citizen in their home country?


No it does not. There are thousands of non-American citizens serving in our Armed Forces. Some are there because the government gives them a fast track to citizenship for serving. I've served with many.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

cobra246 said:


> Being a citizen of another country; as an officer of an american municipality you usually have to swear an oath of office to uphold the Constitution, does that mean they have violated their obligatory duty as a citizen in their home country?


I don't know the exact wording of the oath of office for police officers, but when I took the oath while working for the US Post Office, I don't remember it as being exclusionary. In other words, I could have been loyal to another country (had I retained dual citizenship, for instance) as long as I didn't violate the requirements of my oath to our country.


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

Police Officer's Oath

The widely used oath embraced by the International Association of Chiefs of Police reads, "On my honor, I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character or the public trust. I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions. I will always uphold the Constitution, my community, and the agency I serve."

I was pretty sure that they do swear to uphold something..at least my local dept does.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

by law in virginia you can not be a police officer unless you are a US Citizen


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Citizens, yes.
Civilians, no.

Your friend has his mords wixed up.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

sideKahr said:


> "*Cities are Hiring Non-citizen Immigrants as Police Officers"*
> 
> "Police departments across the country are looking to put immigrants on its workforce, USA Today reported. Most agencies require officers to be U.S. citizens, but some are allowing green card holders and other immigrants legally allowed to work in the country to join the ranks."
> 
> ...


Part of the problem is its harder to find people that want to be police officers. At one point it was a respectable career with decent pay and benefits that went along with the risk you take from the moment you pin the badge on till the day you die. The pay isn't that great anymore, the benefits are dwindling, people are crappy towards them, and you do your job then you risk your entire life being displayed on CNN.

To the OP they are citizens, like others have said you don't' give up your citizenship for any job but so long as you wear the badge your not a civilian and you may have to wave certain rights to keep the job however the way I understand it you can always quit.


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## Targetshooter (Dec 4, 2015)

sideKahr said:


> "*Cities are Hiring Non-citizen Immigrants as Police Officers"*
> 
> "Police departments across the country are looking to put immigrants on its workforce, USA Today reported. Most agencies require officers to be U.S. citizens, but some are allowing green card holders and other immigrants legally allowed to work in the country to join the ranks."
> 
> ...


 I wonder who put this crap into action ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, " Obamazz " ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, looks like his kind of work ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## txmarine6531 (Nov 18, 2015)

Do you mean CIVILIANS? The answer to that is yes, they are civilians as far as I'm concerned. They are not military.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Butler Ford said:


> Just curious, what protections are they denied?
> BF


Well..two that comes immediately to mind is double jeopardy. If a cop is accused of harming a black person...they get the chance to get punished for the original alleged misdeed..then here comes the Feds alleging civil rights violations..which can be criminal civil or both. Course broke cops cant afford to fight a civil suit so you pray they give you a good lawyer. Then comes the right to remain silent thing. When cops are accused of doing something nefarious..they get what is called a Garrity warning. Which basically says...we aint going to use anything you say against you for criminal proceedings..but it will ve an open record for subsequent civil suits..and if you lie we are going to fire your rectum...lol Dont ever even think of getting into that hobby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrity_warning


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

txmarine6531 said:


> Do you mean CIVILIANS? The answer to that is yes, they are civilians as far as I'm concerned. They are not military.


Aren't most of our military citizens? As far as the police officers, I feel sorry for them. I know there are a few that should not be officers, but you can say that about any profession.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

cobra246 said:


> Are american police officers still citizens? Cuz one of my coworkers was trying to tell me that they are not and i had no formal proof they are.


Are you sure they said citizen and not civilian. Some police officers and citizens believe police are not civilians.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Civilians=Not Cops.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> Civilians=Not Cops.


I disagree civilians = not military. Cops are civilians. I understand some will disagree but, that is their right.


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## txmarine6531 (Nov 18, 2015)

paraquack said:


> Aren't most of our military citizens? As far as the police officers, I feel sorry for them. I know there are a few that should not be officers, but you can say that about any profession.
> View attachment 14942


They are, I was just wondering if the OP meant civilian instead of citizen. But, IMO, if you're not military than you are a civilian.


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

dsdmmat said:


> Are you sure they said citizen and not civilian. Some police officers and citizens believe police are not civilians.


Im pretty darn sure my coworker said citizen..the original context of our conversation was that we were passing by a store that said no guns and i was like i wonder if that exludes officers or not and then he was like, "no theyre not citizens so they can go anywhere with a gun".(btw he's one of those sheeple who trys his utmost to stay under the LEO radar because theyre somehow all-powerfull.)


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

cobra246 said:


> Im pretty darn sure my coworker said citizen..the original context of our conversation was that we were passing by a store that said no guns and i was like i wonder if that exludes officers or not and then he was like, "no theyre not citizens so they can go anywhere with a gun".(btw he's one of those sheeple who trys his utmost to stay under the LEO radar because theyre somehow all-powerfull.)


Your coworker is screwed up in the head.


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## cobra246 (Nov 17, 2015)

dsdmmat said:


> Your coworker is screwed up in the head.


Im going to agree with you somewhat lol


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Ok..the civilian terminolgy is used mostly as a slang word in the po po world. A term used to describe John Q. Citizen..lol.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> Ok..the civilian terminolgy is used mostly as a slang word in the po po world. A term used to describe John Q. Citizen..lol.


A dangerous practice IMO but, whatever works.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

cobra246 said:


> Are american police officers still citizens? Cuz one of my coworkers was trying to tell me that they are not and i had no formal proof they are.


Hmm, I am not aware of there being a US citizenship requirement for non federal police. US Federal workers I think need to be US citizens unless they have a special clearance, I think. I would think jobs like FBI are restricted to US citizens, but I am not aware of non-federal police positions being restricted to US citizens. So police may not be citizens as far as I am aware. Normally hiring requirements are like can drive, has passed highschool, and requirements go up from there. Don't quote me on that though.

Dallas however does definately have US Citizenship as a requirement, I'm going to check around see if I can find any that do not.


> All applicants for the position of Dallas Police Officer must meet the below qualifications:
> 
> Must be a citizen of the United States.
> Must be a high school graduate or possess a G.E.D.
> ...


Now Madison Wisconsin does not appear to overtly reference a US citizenship requirement. HOWEVER they do request a birth certificate or certificate of naturalization as evidence of age. HOWEVER not of proof of citizenship, so this could open up gateways such as US citizens who have renounced their citizenship or naturalized citizens who have renounced their citizenship, LIKEWISE it does not say US birth certificate. This does not mean they would be hired but it does indicate offhand that you do not need to be a US citizen to be a police officer in the United States, and it is up to the force or their overseers to set those standards, and US citizenship is not a legal requirement to be police officer in the US. In fact I suspect the only requirement is to be deputized as a peace officer. However I am geussing at minimum a work visa would be required unless deputized.. and I'm not sure where that is at legally if someone is not being paid to be a deputy.

http://www.town.madison.wi.us/police/Recruitment/Eligibility.htm

Madison Police Officer Eligibility Requirements



> Police officer eligibility requirements are set my the State of Wisconsin and the Police and Fire Commission. The following requirements are minimum standards.
> 
> 1.	The applicant shall possess a valid Wisconsin driver's license or such other valid operator's permit recognized by the Wisconsin department of transportation as authorizing operation of a motor vehicle in Wisconsin; or be eligible for a WI Driver's license.
> 
> ...


NOTE THOUGH



> *b.	Such other investigation as may be deemed necessary to provide a basis of judgement on the applicant's loyalty to the United States or to detect conditions which adversely affect performance of one's duty as a law enforcement, tribal law enforcement, jail or secure detention officer.
> *


ODDLY does not say AND, it uses OR, weird



> 7.	The applicant shall be free from any physical, emotional or mental condition which might adversely affect performance of duties as a law enforcement, tribal law enforcement, jail or secure detention officer.
> 
> 8.	The applicant shall complete a personal medical history, a copy of which is to be submitted to the examining physician. The examination shall be by a Wisconsin licensed physician who shall provide a written report on the results of the examination.
> 
> ...


It also appears Sherrifs rules are not as demanding as some of the major police forces where deputization may be done for any particular purpose, varies from state to state.

Take Erie County for example,

http://www2.erie.gov/law/index.php?q=article-15-sheriff-code



> The sheriff shall appoint an undersheriff and may appoint such deputies, other clerks and employees within the limits of the appropriations therefore, as he deems necessary for the conduct of his office. Such deputies shall attend upon the terms and sittings of the supreme court and of the county courts in the county and perform such other duties as the sheriff may direct.
> The undersheriff shall execute the powers and duties of the office in the absence or inability of the sheriff to act and in the event a vacancy occurs in the office of the sheriff, the undersheriff shall execute the said powers and duties until a new sheriff has been elected or appointed and has qualified.


Surpisingly, I am guessing it may be somewhere else, you don't need to be a US citizen to be a sheriff in Texas there are only two requirements, having a highschool diploma and something else, lets see what they are...


> Sec. 85.0011. QUALIFICATIONS. A person is not eligible to serve as sheriff unless the person:
> (1) has a high school diploma or a high school equivalency certificate; and
> (2) is eligible to be licensed under Sections 1701.309 and 1701.312, Occupations Code.


309


> Sec. 1701.309. AGE REQUIREMENT. The commission by rule shall set 21 years of age as the minimum age for obtaining a license as an officer. The rules must provide that a person at least 18 years of age may be issued a license as an officer if the person has:
> (1) completed and received credit for at least 60 hours of study at an accredited college or university or received an associate degree from an accredited college or university; or
> (2) received an honorable discharge from the United States armed forces after at least two years of service.
> 
> Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 388, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999.


312 is actually disqualifications, such as having been convicted of a felony.

So in Texas it appear the requirement is being atleast 21 with a highschool diploma, the lowest requirement seen so far. (and being bondable for between 5000 and 30000 dollars..)


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Well i guess we can blame Joseph Wambaugh. He calls citizens citizens a lot in his books. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Wambaugh


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Denton said:


> Something for pondering, though.
> 
> Why is it that a municipal or state cop would wear a federal flag patch on his shoulder? As we all know, flags are used to set jurisdiction.
> 
> Symbols, like words, mean things.


Set jurisdiction? Not really, members of patriotic and veteran organizations are also authorized to wear a flag patch on their sleeve as per the US Flag Code.
However, civilians such as truck drivers and Joe Sixpack are not supposed to.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Set jurisdiction? Not really, members of patriotic and veteran organizations are also authorized to wear a flag patch on their sleeve as per the US Flag Code.
> However, civilians such as truck drivers and Joe Sixpack are not supposed to.


Those apples aren't the same as the oranges.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

We are indeed citizens. Just second class citizens.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Just an update on wisconsin after looking at their employment standards, as part of the certification requirements indeed one must be a US citizen to be certified and certification is a requirement, so it is hidden quite a bit.

https://wilenet.org/html/career/lesb-policy-procedure-manual.pdf

It seems only sheriffs and their deputies do not have the citizenship requirement in WI, although I am guessing perhaps deputy sheriffs may in fact be the only possible depending on sheriff eligiblity.



> Wisconsin State Statute §66.0501(1) states that no person may be appointed deputy sheriff of any county or police officer of any city, village or town unless that person is a citizen of the United States. Wisconsin State Statute does not require United States citizenship for elected sheriffs, chiefs of police, state law enforcement officers, and deputy sheriffs who are not required to take an oath of office


Not sure what states have a citizenship requirement for certification other than WI right now though.

I don't get it, but if there is no oath of office then they don't need to be a citizen, if there is an oath of office they do apparently.

Not sure why any office wouldn't have an oath of office requirement???

I don't get it.

However if the FBI training page indicates an oath of office, not sure if it is the same, however if so it would be universal hence the statement by the standards board doesn't make much sense.



> At the end of their academy training, and as part of the official graduation ceremony, these same new-agent trainees once again will stand, raise their right hands, and repeat the same oath. This time, however, the oath will be administered by the director of the FBI, and the trainees will be sworn in as special agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.1 Similar types of ceremonies are conducted in every state, by every law enforcement agency, for every officer across the country. And, each officer promises to do one fundamentally important thing-support and defend the Constitution of the United States.
> 
> I [name] do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.


So if the oath is universal and it is "the oath of office" then it would be universal... however if it is not "the oath of office" and instead an oath of "duty" or some other sort, since they are not yet employed, only having completed training. I don't get it.

None the less, it is safe to say almost all US police officers are US citizens. It isn't clear when they are not required to be, but I am thinking it may vary from state to state, for elected law enforcement officials as opposed to hired ones. Therefore Sherrifs may not be, if state legislation doesn't prohibit a foreign individual from running for elected office in a given state, i.e. a state resident may vote, even if they are not a federal citizen. I know voting rights for local elections extend to foreign citizens in Canada, not sure if this is true in the US, as you only need to own property or be resident in a locality to vote at the local level.

The FBI page says



> Most are surprised to learn that the requirement to take an oath is found in the Constitution itself. Article VI mandates that both federal and state officers of all three branches of government (legislative, executive, and judicial) take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States.
> 
> The Senators and Representatives [&#8230;], and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution[&#8230;].4


The all executive officials.

However this itself doesn't say must be a citizen but rather must undertake the oath.

However in WI case when combined with their standards board they say if an oath is required so is citizenship, but the constitution itself does not say citizenship is required only the oath. As it would make no sense to create a condition that was unconstitional as a standard.

SO the only thing that then makes sense is that the oath of office referred to in the WI standards board is not the constitutional oath, but some other oath of office, which is created above the constitutional oath as a federal or state executive official.

Also are county/local officials considered state officials? Normally local government is in fact state/provincial government but the lower government is given powers from the state, as opposed to being powers that rest with the people.

None the less I am thinking the agencies and their oversights set the requirements and only those states that have overlooked a blanket citizenship requirement would be open to non citizens.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Cant think of any po po agency in Texas would intentionally hire a non citizen in the sworn part of the profession. Internal rules and regulations of the agencies should make it a no no...then wait till the lawyers heard about it and started suing everybody. Course they prob go for it in the blue states.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

bigwheel said:


> Cant think of any po po agency in Texas would intentionally hire a non citizen in the sworn part of the profession. Internal rules and regulations of the agencies should make it a no no...then wait till the lawyers heard about it and started suing everybody. Course they prob go for it in the blue states.


Hmm well the US military also allows non citizens, and it is a path to citizenship or it has been previously with citizenship being faciltiated for service.

The constitional oath does appear to be a requirement though if it is federal or state police.

I am thinking a green card would be required though.

Take this link for example
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/21/immigrant-police-officers/70236828/

This seems to confirm my suspicions



> Most agencies in the country require officers or deputies to be U.S. citizens, but some are allowing immigrants who are legally in the country to wear the badge. From Hawaii to Vermont, agencies are allowing green-card holders and legal immigrants with work permits to join their ranks.


Surpisingly, according to the article, there are some 25000 foreign service personnel in the US military. That is like half the size of the full time military in Canada.. lol.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Yep...the crazy Kenyan is out to kill us all.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

If you do not renounce your citizenship--- you are a citizen!
It is really simple.
Where does this crap come from??


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