# Happy Friday, let's argue



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

I say in an TEOTWAWKI scenario the 9mm is a superior round to .40 or .45.

In this scenario most self defense situations you find yourself in 9mm will more than do the job. Even more important it will be easier to find as it is a more popular caliber. A 40 or 45 handgun wont do you much good if nothing is in it. I suppose you could throw it at someone.

What say you?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Hmmm, I say a 22 caliber semi auto pistol is better than a 9 MM.
Wait, has the world recovered from the 22 shortage? I know my supply safe is ok. I do need more 45 though.
Ugh


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

.45 and 9mm are popular rounds in my neck of the woods. Either way, they are sidearms. 
TEOTWAWKI won't be a sidearm situation. It'll be a rifle situation.


----------



## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

9mm. Yep!


----------



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> 9mm. Yep!


Thank you. Finally someone with a brain.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Sasquatch said:


> Thank you. Finally someone with a brain.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Let me get this straight. You are going to traverse what will be akin to a warzone with a pistol and you think the rest of us are without a brain? :vs_laugh:


----------



## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Denton said:


> .45 and 9mm are popular rounds in my neck of the woods. Either way, they are sidearms.
> TEOTWAWKI *won't be a sidearm situation. It'll be a rifle situation*.


A side arm is only for fighting your way back to your rifle.


----------



## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Oh, of course I would prefer a long gun. But the choices were limited to 9mm, .40, and .45.


----------



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Let me get this straight. You are going to traverse what will be akin to a warzone with a pistol and you think the rest of us are without a brain? :vs_laugh:


A long gun was not part of the scenario which is always a possibility. Hence, sir, you've no brain. Good day.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

What do you mean by "easier to find"? I think any retail store that has ammo will be cleaned out pretty fast. Best bet is to stock enough for your needs, whatever your choice of caliber. I wouldn't presume I would find the ammo I needed.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

As Clint Smith says:
"Handguns put bullets *in* you.
Rifles put bullets *through* you.
Shotguns, with proper load and range, remove a chunk of you and throw it on the floor"

If you are restricted to handgun rounds, and all you can do with ANY of them is poke holes into your attacker, none of them have "knockdown" power. Shoot the one that you can apply judicious marksmanship with and allows for consistently accurate follow-up shots, since *ALL* calibers take an average of 2+ rounds to stop an attacker.(by statistical analysis) There is no magic handgun caliber.

For me, that's a 9mm. I can control it, I can place accurate shots, and I can follow-up with more with minimal target reallocation time.

Plus, in TEOTWAWKI, 9mm will be the most prevalent across the nation.


----------



## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

You silly Boys, stock up on plenty of 9mm ..... and 45.


----------



## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Whatever caliber firearm you happen to have in your hand when you need to put your booger hook on the bang switch, THAT is the best caliber.


----------



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

1skrewsloose said:


> What do you mean by "easier to find"? I think any retail store that has ammo will be cleaned out pretty fast. Best bet is to stock enough for your needs, whatever your choice of caliber. I wouldn't presume I would find the ammo I needed.


You are correct in that you wont find ammo at a retail store once the SHTF. I'm saying 9mm is a more popular caliber and you'll likely find more of it scavenging.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Whatever caliber firearm you happen to have in your hand when you need to put your booger hook on the bang switch, THAT is the best caliber.


Buzzkill!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

9MM, 40, 45?
Sissy rounds that bad guys can shrug off.
357 magnum minimum, 44 magnum better.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Sasquatch said:


> A long gun was not part of the scenario which is always a possibility. Hence, sir, you've no brain. Good day.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Your scenario is as flawed as you are, sir.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Mmmmm!!! Rifles!!!!
No .223 varmint rounds, .30 caliber minimum.
196 grain 8MM Mauser, one hit to the torso and he might not be dead at that moment, but you will have no more trouble from him.


----------



## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

9mm all the way. Sold off and got rid of ALL my 45 junk. 

No more 1911's either, M&P's and Glocks. Let stir the pot a little.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> 9MM, 40, 45?
> Sissy rounds that bad guys can shrug off.
> 357 magnum minimum, 44 magnum better.


Yeah... not so much:
.357 Magnum? Check. "Center Mass" hit? Check. Instant Stop? Er&#8230;


> I've previously written about the case of Richard Blackburn taking a shot at Trooper Mark Coates with a .22 mini pistol, and Coates responding with five (count 'em, five) shots of .357 Magnum to the chest of Blackburn. Did that put Blackburn "out of the fight"? Hardly. Blackburn subsequently fired another shot from his .22lr, which managed to enter the armpit hole of Coates' vest, find his heart, and killed him. Blackburn is alive today, serving his prison sentence.
> 
> Today I'll bring another case to your attention, the case of LAPD Officer Stacey Lim. Officer Lim was followed by a gangbanger wanting to steal her car. When she pulled into her driveway and exited the car, he shoved a .357 Magnum at her from about five feet away and pulled the trigger. He didn't miss. In Officer Lim's own words, the .357 bullet hit her "just left center of my chest, it went through my chest and out my back, nicked my diaphragm, my liver, my intestine, shattered my spleen, put a hole in the base of my heart, and left a tennis-ball-sized hole in my back as it exited. It knocked me back into my car door."
> ...
> ...


Like I said, there is no magical handgun caliber. The debate over which is better is for gun newbies and keyboard commandos, not for people serious about stopping an attack.


----------



## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

I sort of figure firearms aren't much different than food storage. There's levels... You've got your 3 weeks mark and that'd be equivalent to a concealed carry. 9mm, yes sir Mr. Squatch. It's what I need when I need it immediately--something hits me by surprise. Then there's three months (shotguns and rifles). That's what I should have for things when it's getting more serious. Then there's the three years mark (that's the big guns). I'm not at the three year mark yet.


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I know a lot of vets who believe the 9mm is not supperior to a .45. They felt it did not have the stopping power.
You say that 9mm is very popular and it propably is. Which also means it might disappear before other calibers. 
I won't get into reloading, since you didn't mention it. Oh screw that. Reloading is what a good little prepper will do.
Or even better, a graet prepper will have both and the ability to reload.


----------



## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

A 9MM will be suffice for defense. Get a Ruger 9mm rifle. At least you will have a little better accuracy from a distance, and may be able to eat something other than twigs and berries.


----------



## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I have a .45 only because it was my duty weapon and retired with me. ( H&K USP .45C). I saw 9mm get the job done on the streets more times than I can ever remember. 9mm all day, every day.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

I think if you like the 9mm you are not making a bad choice. And if you are happy with it stock up and get ready something is coming and it may be sooner that we think. As for me I am getting to old for hand gun close range shoot outs. Not that i can I just do not want to
I will as I do right now have my 9mm on my side but this will be pointed down range and should insure I never need to use my 9mm.


----------



## Gunn (Jan 1, 2016)

The 45 ACP is king. I have had to use both 45 ACP and 9MM in a life threatening situations. The 45 ACP rules. Now I own all three in pistol format (45ACP,40SW, 9mm) and carbine format. I also reload for all three. But If I had only one caliber it would definitely be the King.


----------



## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

Not knocking any caliber but SHTF TEOTWAWKI I'm sticking with 10MM, 308/7.62X51 and 12GA.


----------



## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

Interesting thread. So, the main reason I carry a 9mm is round count vs a .45 or .40. Statistic show, the police, trained professionals, have a hit ratio of anywhere between 15 and 35%. That’s a professional. Under stress I wonder what an average citizen would hit. So for me, I’d rather have more than less. I remember a shooting in the 90’s in NYC where 2 cops fired at a suspected that was shooting at them. I don’t remember the distance but it was greater than 21’. They all missed. Every shot missed the suspect. But one shot hit a bystander down range. 

Also looking at ballistics a good defensive 9mm round can create quite the wound channel and not much less than a .45. The 9mm ammo is cheaper (unless you reload) and the overall weight is less when CC’ing. 

I shoot the .45 extremely well as the recoil on a .45 is more of a push than the 9mm snap so I get back on target quick with either. But again, I’d rather have 13+1 than 7+1. 

Love the .45 and 9mm but I’ll carry the 9 (and I don’t like the .40)

Side note.. my father was in a gun battle on a roof toP in NYC back when everything was mostly revolvers. He said the bad guy was 10’ away from him and missed all his shots. My father didn’t miss. He carried SW .38 detective special in a combat stance. I’m glad he didn’t get hit.. I wasn’t born then!


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Like I said, there is no magical handgun caliber. The debate over which is better is for gun newbies and keyboard commandos, not for people serious about stopping an attack.


#1 - Read the title of the post again. "Happy Friday, lets argue". I assumed that with such a title, this would be a light hearted exercise.
Evidently some people are wrapped a little to tight to have fun.

#2 - I'm serious about self defense, which is why, if I've got a choice, I will use a rifle. Handguns, regardless of caliber, are relatively low powered firearms. Their ONLY advantage is handy size.

#3 - A chart on handgun "power" drawn from reliable sources such as the studies done by Marshall & Sanow. THE BEST is Federal or Remington 125 grain .357 magnum. Even better than 45 Colt or 44 Magnum.
www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm


----------



## tuffy_chick_13 (Nov 15, 2015)

I have a .22 because the recoil doesn’t hurt me and I only shoot kill shots with it. I can shoot the husbands 9mm but not as well and fewer rounds because of the recoil.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Sasquatch said:


> I say in an TEOTWAWKI scenario the 9mm is a superior round to .40 or .45.
> 
> In this scenario most self defense situations you find yourself in 9mm will more than do the job. Even more important it will be easier to find as it is a more popular caliber. A 40 or 45 handgun wont do you much good if nothing is in it. I suppose you could throw it at someone.
> 
> ...


Personally I think you missed out on one of your ballistics lessons, . . . more GI's than one I've heard from come back from the sand box, . . . and their talk about 9mm is something akin to a drunken sailor talking about his ex's mama what didn't like him.

9 is also a PITA to reload if you are talking about S&W double stack mags, . . . with arthritis, . . . lucky to get 9 or 10 in before Uncle Arty makes you back down.

Then there is the stockpile, . . . I ain't stockpiling 9mm, . . . but I am .45ACP which will knock a perp down faster and keep him down longer . . . . (tried, tested, and proved in Japan, Germany, the Phillipenes, Vietnam, and Korea, . . . among other places.

So? Nahh, . . . IMHO, . . . folks carrying a 9 thinking they are going to do something with it, . . . they're fooling themselves. No joke, . . . I'd rather carry my Browning .22 Buckmark, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight


----------



## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

I HATE .40! I HATE .40 worse than the devil hates Holy Water! It is just a very uncomfortable round to shoot, in my arrogant opinion. So, it is between 9mm and .45... I carry a .45 as my EDC. A 9mm Beretta 92 is my "mistress". Between the two, I am equally comfortable. But keep that .40 S&W shit away from me!

That being said, during the obama ammo shortage, .40 was the only round that was reliably available.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Inor said:


> I HATE .40! I HATE .40 worse than the devil hates Holy Water! It is just a very uncomfortable round to shoot, in my arrogant opinion. So, it is between 9mm and .45... I carry a .45 as my EDC. A 9mm Beretta 92 is my "mistress". Between the two, I am equally comfortable. But keep that .40 S&W shit away from me!
> 
> That being said, during the obama ammo shortage, .40 was the only round that was reliably available.


The .40 was invented because police discovered 9MM ain't all it's cracked up to be in a situation involving a perp high on drugs, or high on adrenaline.
The .40 was supposed to bring more power to the fight, yet not be as big and bulky as the 45 ACP.
It was a compromise between the two.

Truth be told, in the world of tacticool plastic pistols what really floats my boat is my Ruger Super Blackhawk.
Almost 4 pounds of wood and beautiful blued steel. 7 & 1/2" barrel. Sweet crisp trigger. BIG BOOM as 240 grains of JSP moves out at about 1200 FPS for somewhere around 750 foot pounds of energy.
There are other handguns more powerful, but honestly, unless you are hunting dangerous game they are simply overkill.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Inor said:


> I HATE .40! I HATE .40 worse than the devil hates Holy Water! It is just a very uncomfortable round to shoot, in my arrogant opinion. So, it is between 9mm and .45... I carry a .45 as my EDC. A 9mm Beretta 92 is my "mistress". Between the two, I am equally comfortable. But keep that .40 S&W shit away from me!
> 
> That being said, during the obama ammo shortage, .40 was the only round that was reliably available.


The .40 is the bisexual round of the gun community.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Get right down to it, a piece of lead from a handgun isn't the end-all unless it is well-placed. Whatever round you choose, have a lot of it and be good with it.


----------



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> 9MM, 40, 45?
> Sissy rounds that bad guys can shrug off.
> 357 magnum minimum, 44 magnum better.


A lot of bears in your TEOTWAWKI?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Your scenario is as flawed as you are, sir.


Figures you'd pair with a flawed individual to secure your retirement madam!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

I had to make a run to Waxahachie, Texas last night and pulled up behind Ford pick up truck (May God bless all F-150 drivers), it had a bumper sticker on the back glass that read "45 ACP because its silly to shoot someone twice".


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

9MM, 45ACP, 40? There all faster then 911.


----------



## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Prepared One said:


> 9MM, 45ACP, 40? There all faster then 911.


That ^^^^ is a definite truism, . . .

When seconds count, . . . LEO support is only minutes away.

(Or in my case, . . . a half hour, . . . maybe longer, . . . away).

May God bless,
Dwight


----------



## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I'd still like to know where folks will scavenge ammo. Go door to door and ransack every house till you find what you need? I'm serious, not like walking in the woods and finding nuts and berries. Any who have ammo will surely be protective of it. Any good ideas and I might change my mind to 9mm. Maybe off those who bit the dust? Shoot first, take ammo second?


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Sasquatch said:


> A lot of bears in your TEOTWAWKI?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Black bears and alligators, yes.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Sasquatch said:


> A lot of bears in your TEOTWAWKI?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


This is my neighborhood. All folks here don't live in the suburbs. Which is why I'm always carrying at least a 38 Special whenever I'm outside, even walking to the mailbox in the middle of the day.
The eastern edge of the Okefenokee is about 3 air miles from our homestead, and the terrain and animals at this link are literally what's in my back yard, too.
www.fws.gov/refuge/Okefenokee/wildlife_and_habitat/index.html


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Annie said:


> I sort of figure firearms aren't much different than food storage. There's levels... You've got your 3 weeks mark and that'd be equivalent to a concealed carry. 9mm, yes sir Mr. Squatch. It's what I need when I need it immediately--something hits me by surprise. Then there's three months (shotguns and rifles). That's what I should have for things when it's getting more serious. Then there's the three years mark (that's the big guns). I'm not at the three year mark yet.


Your "three year mark" Would be the 45-70 rifles.
Designed by the Army for cavalry troopers to knock down an opposing forces horses. Dismounted troops are easier to deal with.
Actually, for that matter, the original 45 Colt was also made powerful enough to knock down a horse and rider. It was the most powerful handgun cartridge from its inception in 1873 until the introduction of the 357 magnum in 1935.

A 45-70 will kill anything that walks on the North American continent, including the BIG bears. It has even taken Cape Buffalo in Africa.
Do I have one? Of course!!


----------



## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Your "three year mark" Would be the 45-70 rifles.
> Designed by the Army for cavalry troopers to knock down an opposing forces horses. Dismounted troops are easier to deal with.
> Actually, for that matter, the original 45 Colt was also made powerful enough to knock down a horse and rider. It was the most powerful handgun cartridge from its inception in 1873 until the introduction of the 357 magnum in 1935.
> 
> ...


Colt 45's a lot of gun for me. Might make me look fat.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Annie said:


> Colt 45's a lot of gun for me. Might make me look fat.


That made me gut laugh!

Back in my subdivision dwelling days, one of my old neighbors (Our boys called him Mr N) bought his first AR15 and fitted it with a Single Point Sling. He was so excited he called me and said he is coming over to show me.

Well, our neighbor was the type of guy who had one of those HUGE Beer Belly's, the kind that sticks out abnormally in front, but the view from the back showed a "normal" sized fella.

Anyway, Mr N starts walking down the street over to our house with his new AR15 and sling and due to his massive beach ball that he had in his belly, the damn thing was sticking straight out! It would have been funnier if it had been fitted with a bayonet or something! I couldn't help it I had to say; N, don't worry, that AR doesn't make you look fat at all! Hilarious!:vs_laugh:

Our Sons still laugh at the fond memories of Mr N and his single point sling! :vs_lol:


----------



## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> 9MM, 40, 45?
> Sissy rounds that bad guys can shrug off.
> 357 magnum minimum, 44 magnum better.


.357 has grown on me ever since I picked up that EAA revolver earlier this year. You can tell a difference when it hits steel vs my 9mm, .40, and .380 even when I'm shooting carry ammo from them vs cheap plinking ammo for the .357. Next range visit is going to involve testing some Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman 180 grain hard-cast.

That being said, when it comes to EDC and home defense the 9mm, .40, and .380 are my go too options but then again where I'm at black bears and alligators aren't nearly a big a threat as the overpopulated Meth/Heroin Zombie. Then again there have been black bear sightings in my county and surrounding counties. Fish & Wildlife says its the same bear but that is a lot of territory for a single bear to cover.


----------



## Marica (May 5, 2019)

Time to watch "Zombieland" again.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Annie said:


> Colt 45's a lot of gun for me. Might make me look fat.


Not the 45 ACP like that fired thru a 1911 pistol, but the Grand Daddy of them all, 45 Colt, often called 45 Long Colt.
The ACP was an attempt to get Long Colt power in an auto loader, but actually falls short.

The 45 Colt fired in a Ruger Blackhawk can be up loaded to higher than 44 Magnum levels.
My 45 Blackhawk is a Convertible, it has a Colt cylinder and an ACP cylinder. Not a concealed carry gun for sure, but out in the woods or farm it is an excellent side arm. I highly recommend that every serious pistolero own one.


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Now when it comes to subguns, I will take one of my 45 cal. ones everyday, the 9 falls real short in that area.

Stepfather told me a story about when in on the battle for Okinawa, around Shuri Castle,

a fellow Marine was charged by a Jap Officer with his Katana held high.

The Jap was going right after his bud, the Marine gave him a burst from an M3 grease gun, 

the Jap was stopped mid stride and fell over backwards, DEAD.

I carry a 9 MM handgun 60% of the time, and every time a threat level goes up a bit I regret not having taken a 45.

The 45 makes bigger drain holes than a 9, and ammo makers are always trying to get those 35 cal pills to 45 cal. size.

For a 9mm starting in the fall, I carry a Sig with two 15 round spare mags, If I feel I need more, I take 20 round factory mags.

I still feel the 9 comes up short, now a custom loaded 38 Super is a different story, that is a 357 in an automatic!


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

One of the firearms I wish I would have bought but never got around to is a 1911A1 chambered in 38 Super.
Rock Island Armory, aka Armscor, makes one I could afford, but in order to get the money I'd have to sell a gun.

Young pups today probably don't e en know what a 38 Super is.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> That ^^^^ is a definite truism, . . .
> 
> When seconds count, . . . LEO support is only minutes away.
> 
> ...


Work-Wifey (Your leather-working buddy) lives out in the middle of nowhere. Were there to be intruders, nobody would ever know about it. Her husband would calmly dispatch the moron and then plant him in the woods.
He always carries a .45 and practices at rifle-distances.


----------



## watcher (Aug 24, 2013)

Deebo said:


> Hmmm, I say a 22 caliber semi auto pistol is better than a 9 MM.
> Wait, has the world recovered from the 22 shortage? I know my supply safe is ok. I do need more 45 though.
> Ugh


HMR17 pistols are out now and I am putting my .22 to rest..


----------



## watcher (Aug 24, 2013)

13+1...Glock 41..MINE...


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Annie said:


> Colt 45's a lot of gun for me. Might make me look fat.


I don't know, this gal has two 45's and she looks OK to me. :tango_face_grin:


----------



## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Prepared One said:


> ....... this gal has two 45's ......
> 
> View attachment 101311


She does?


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> She does?


(Sigh) Really? Lighten up BPH.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

watcher said:


> HMR17 pistols are out now and I am putting my .22 to rest..


Range Report @watcher !!!!!!!!!!!

I love the .17HMR!


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

1skrewsloose said:


> I'd still like to know where folks will scavenge ammo. Go door to door and ransack every house till you find what you need? Shoot first, take ammo second?


I have solved the problem of looking for more, any, some, a bit.

At this point, I need not another round of ammo.

Statistically I will not have used .0001% if involved in SHTF firefights before I would be killed.

I can wear out all the guns for which I have ammo for with what is in storage.

I supplied the local dealer with thousands of rounds of handgun ammo(on loan, to be replaced) when the O'thingy was in office.

Those rounds were 45, 9, 380, 22LR and 40.

That list gives you a good idea of what people here use the most of.

I gave no rifle ammo even though it was asked for, no primary stuff left here.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Whatever caliber firearm you happen to have in your hand when you need to put your booger hook on the bang switch, THAT is the best caliber.


Sounds like what the Old Sgt Major was fond of saying. Cant believe this discusssion grew such long legs. I will agree with Hawg who say use a pistol to get to the real gun and with the little lady who touts the virtues of .22 LR. I carry my little .22 mouse gun around the house and strap on the 40 Sig when I goes to the pole dancing contests on boys day out..twice a week. I like all kinds of calibers aint real picky. Been toting the old Sig for 20 years and it still works great cept the radioactive night sights now glow feeble. Here is a photo of my walking the dog taking out the trash assortment of target hardners. Just got the new little Chicom ASP Clone thing today. Works ok...not as heavy as the last one I had but should work ok for no more often a person might have to use it. I carried one for a long time and never did hit a human with it so they last a long time. I unfurled it a a few times on hard headed boys but the shucking sound can be intimidating like a .12 gauge pump being racked back so they give up. It makes mean dogs act very nice. Works much bettre than pepper spray. That dont woirk on dogs hardly at all.


----------



## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Prepared One said:


> (Sigh) Really? Lighten up BPH.


----------



## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

9mm vs S&W40

Real SHTF time with everybody walking for hours working their land for basic food, cutting wood, carrying water, ect. No armchair quarterbacks or open stores. Either get out and provide for your family or die time. Forget scavenging ammo. That's a stupid thought if things get really bad; you should already have sufficient ammo. You'll rarely be leaving your property but on your feet for hours every day fixing stuff and collecting what you require; activities that work better with a pistol than a rifle. Ever tried splitting wood with a rifle slung across your back? Better plan on splitting wood every few days if you want your dinner cooked. A pistol with a good holster will often be your primary defensive weapon.
I went in for 40 S&W years ago as a more modern higher capacity choice over my 45 ACP. Even bought a carbine in 40 S&W for a house gun.

Did more research as ammo got better. 9mm is statically just as effective as 40 or 45 according to reports I've read but weighs less and can carry more shells. Shot placement with sufficient penetration is the primary requirement; something 9mm provides if you can shoot straight. Splitting wood, using a shovel,, or carrying 5 gallons of water you won't be carrying a lot of spare mags or a rifle, instead you need a pistol that carries more shells and weighs less. The last few years I've been getting out of 40 cal and switching to 9mm. 40 S&W is still a good choice but not the best choice in my opinion. 

Some cop friends prefer a 40 or 45 for pumped up druggies but few weeks after SHTF starts there will be no more Meth-heads. The hard drugs will be all used up.

If you're an armchair quarterback who plans to defend their home from their front porch choose whatever caliber you like. But if you plan to do more than just sit in a bunker eating stockpiled food waiting for the bad guy to walk through the door a 9mm gives you more rounds of sufficiently powerful ammo in an easier to carry package.


----------



## watcher (Aug 24, 2013)

Back Pack Hack said:


>


I am 73 years old and I still like cartoons...


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> #1 - Read the title of the post again. "Happy Friday, lets argue". I assumed that with such a title, this would be a light hearted exercise.
> Evidently some people are wrapped a little to tight to have fun.
> 
> #2 - I'm serious about self defense, which is why, if I've got a choice, I will use a rifle. Handguns, regardless of caliber, are relatively low powered firearms. Their ONLY advantage is handy size.
> ...


You have your way of "arguing", and I have mine. Seems mine worked well too. i got a numbered retort! :tango_face_wink:

"Power" of a round does not equate to lethality, as demonstrated in my linked article. That's like claiming a particular knife is more deadly than another because it's sharper.


----------



## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

All this spitting and cussing in here and I still have to remind you fine folks of the obvious. 
A 9mm May expand but, a 45 don't shrink.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> You have your way of "arguing", and I have mine. Seems mine worked well too. i got a numbered retort! :tango_face_wink:
> 
> "Power" of a round does not equate to lethality, as demonstrated in my linked article. That's like claiming a particular knife is more deadly than another because it's sharper.


Ahhh, but the chart contains a column of percentage of "one round stops". This is something Marshall and Sanow gleaned from reports of actual shootings.
"One round stop" is defined by them as the aggressor stopping offensive action after just one hit.
The two examples of 357 magnum I cited were higher in this category than any other - in the mid 90 percentile as a matter of fact. Much higher than any 9MM.
So, yes, this chart does offer a way to measure EFFECTIVE efficiency of handgun rounds, and by extension their lethality.

You would have seen that if you had actually read the chart.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer


----------



## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Prepared One said:


> I don't know, this gal has two 45's and she looks OK to me. :tango_face_grin:
> 
> View attachment 101311


That's fancy....I think the big cowgirl hat offsets the handguns. Balances everything out, pictorially speaking.


----------



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Sasquatch said:


> I say in an TEOTWAWKI scenario the 9mm is a superior round to .40 or .45.
> 
> In this scenario most self defense situations you find yourself in 9mm will more than do the job. Even more important it will be easier to find as it is a more popular caliber. A 40 or 45 handgun wont do you much good if nothing is in it. I suppose you could throw it at someone.
> 
> ...


I am slowly building my .45 ammo supply, so that I will have something to shoot the bastards with. But, if I run into a good deal on a 9mm, I will get it.
You can't be too prepared.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Ahhh, but the chart contains a column of percentage of "one round stops". This is something Marshall and Sanow gleaned from reports of actual shootings.
> "One round stop" is defined by them as the aggressor stopping offensive action after just one hit.
> The two examples of 357 magnum I cited were higher in this category than any other - in the mid 90 percentile as a matter of fact. Much higher than any 9MM.
> So, yes, this chart does offer a way to measure EFFECTIVE efficiency of handgun rounds, and by extension their lethality.
> ...


I'll grant you that I did not originally look at the chart.
I was on my phone, and made the all too common mistake of assuming the contents reflected the title. (silly me)
My apologies for that.

Now, having looked at the chart, I realize I wasn't off-base nearly as much as you seem to think, as that column is nonsensical for any significant statistical analysis.
Case in point, how many shootings for each caliber were used to make those "one-stop shot" percentages?
If the study used 1,000 reports of 9mm use, and only 100 reports of .357, the column is useless as a comparative measure between calibers.
It simply means that for that round, across all uses of that round alone, the percentage of one-stop shot was "x" for the number of samples reviewed.
Statistics can be made to say anything when the supporting info is lacking.
To wit, the chart does not in fact grant us any useful measure of effective efficiency between calibers.
I tried to dig further by following the link that claims to expand on the chart, but it's behind a subscriber login screen.

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable." ― Mark Twain
:tango_face_wink:


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> I'll grant you that I did not originally look at the chart.
> I was on my phone, and made the all too common mistake of assuming the contents reflected the title. (silly me)
> My apologies for that.
> 
> ...


I give up.
You win.
Have a nice day.

If you are truly interested in furthering your education, try Evan Marshall - Handgun Stopping Power that chart was developed from his research.
They even have a forum, where I have been a member for years. You may find it interesting.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I give up.
> You win.
> Have a nice day.
> 
> ...


You can't give up. We're supposed to argue.
Parry, parry, redoublement, reposte!
The whole thread is for naught when people give up. Arguing is supposed to be fun, right?

I did run across that site while trying to search for an alternative place that might have the data that was behind the subscriber paywall. No luck, but did find a few places to buy the book.

I did find this one, and it gives excellent data on the number of shots/hits/shots to stop/one-shot-stop/etc.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

By those numbers, the .32ACP is the out and out winner with a "% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)" of 72%!!! (This figure is a total incap(dead or otherwise), not just the person giving up and stopping the fight, as the "one-shot stop" figure represents)
Though the sample size for the .32 is abysmal.


> "What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information.
> ...
> No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!"


----------



## NewRiverGeorge (Jan 2, 2018)

paraquack said:


> I know a lot of vets who believe the 9mm is not supperior to a .45. They felt it did not have the stopping power.
> You say that 9mm is very popular and it propably is. Which also means it might disappear before other calibers.
> I won't get into reloading, since you didn't mention it. Oh screw that. Reloading is what a good little prepper will do.
> Or even better, a graet prepper will have both and the ability to reload.


9mm FMJ is one thing, however if it is an HST or similar bullet, then you have something.


----------



## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Ever see a really sharp knife open a jugular vein? I'll take a bad knife over a good gun any day...


----------



## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Ever see a really sharp knife open a jugular vein? I'll take a bad knife over a good gun any day...


Not too smart ?

I'll take the gun thank you.


----------



## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Ever see a really sharp knife open a jugular vein?

Actually, yes, not on a human though. Its how I bled out animals when I did on-the-farm butchering. Really messy.


----------



## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

The Tourist said:


> Ever see a really sharp knife open a jugular vein? I'll take a bad knife over a good gun any day...


What's the MOA on your knife at 400 yards?


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Back Pack Hack said:


> What's the MOA on your knife at 400 yards?


Excellent question Sir and obviously, answers may vary, but lets try and break this down analytically shall we?

First,lets begin by determining generally that 1 MOA at 400 yards is 4.1888" if we can all agree that 1MOA=1/60th of a degree right?

So, assuming that someone with a strong and accurate throwing arm could throw an extremely well built and balanced knife 30 yards and be offline by 12 feet. (Slippy pulls out his slide rule and his abacus and as he ciphers dust and curse words begin to fly... 14 Hours and 12 minutes later, Slippy comes up with the answer.)

A knife thrown at a 400 yard target has an MOA=A MEGA COLLOSSOL SHIT TON...:vs_wave:


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

The thing with a knife is you have to get into striking distance.
Me, with a gun won't let you get that close, and even at age 79 I can still shoot quite well and a CT green laser helps also ensure a fatal hit.
Now with winter here, I carry a S&W 642 in my coat pocket, 
and it is generally with my hand is on it in the pocket when out of here.
It is loaded with +P+ Corebon JHP's, those will tear a hole in you.
Oh, that is my backup to a 1911 or a SIG 228.
Every year I pass the shooting course under the "Retired Law Enforcement safety act", which gives me nation wide CC.
I mind my own business, get in no ones face, and expect the same, I am not hesitant to use force if needed, to old to slug it out.
And on top of that if with me as is 90% of the time, my daughter will shoot you with her S&W 442 or her Glock 17 if need be.
I carry a Gerber folder, strictly a utility knife, I learned 60 years ago not to fight with a knife unless it was attached to a muzzle of a rifle.
Here is a picture of the sweet little girl, that is her M-4, she was 29 when this was taken, 31 now.
she has grown up with all sorts of guns and loves shooting my MG's as long as I supply the ammo


----------



## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)




----------



## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

hawgrider said:


> I'll take the gun thank you.


Well, sure, if there is a lot of unknown variables.

Number one, are you more than three or four long strides away from that scimitar? Many of us know both history and edge keenness. One swing, there goes an arm.

Number two, did the film director do fourteen takes and none of them were dramatic or funny?

Finally, are you a million dollar movie star, retching from some severe foreign flu, running a major temperature and just sick of the entire scene? And BTW, kudos to the sword-brandishing stunt man who initiated the hysterical prat-fall...


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

It takes about four minutes to bleed out from a severed femoral artery.
I imagine a jugular vein would be about the same.
Plenty of time to put a full magazine of 45 ACP into his torso, at contact distance so no misses, reload, and put 8 more rounds right into his heart.
Then sit down and light a last cigarette.

Of course, to let a man with his hand in his pocket get that close without drawing your gun is bad tactics.


----------

