# When I say it out loud, this sounds like a dumb question... Airgun for defense?



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

While your eyebrow is still cocked, let me clarify...

I do NOT condone the use of an airgun as a primary means of self-defense if ANYTHING better is possible.

Now... on to my pondering. A video popped up in my YouTube feed with a guy who runs an airgun channel, giving his opinion on what airguns could be used as a defensive tool. He too does not believe such a gun should be a primary defensive option, but some situations make it less crazy.
In Texas, an airgun is NOT considered a firearm. According to federal law, an airgun is NOT considered a firearm.
I'll let your mind wander. (federal "gun free zones", businesses that prohibit the carry of firearms)

Being an upstanding and law-abiding Texan, I try my darnedest to avoid breaking the law. However, I do not appreciate when the law prohibits me from defending my own life in places where criminals like to frequent, knowing there is little chance they will meet resistance.
With this in mind, what options do I have? Carry my otherwise legal firearm in a place that makes it an illegal act? Give up my right to self defense? Or find a creative option?

Enter, the high velocity airgun. (Replica CO2 Air Pistols)
Some of these things are near 100% replicas of real firearms in look and feel, and some can deliver a round at nearly 500fps.

Due to these two elements, and the nice little fact that these guns are not legally considered to be firearms, is it crazy to think they could be employed as defensive tools in a situation where you would otherwise be prevented from carrying something more adequate? No, they likely won't cause a mortal wound. You'd have to be a damn good shot, or damn lucky, to whiz one right through the pupil. But still... 15-20 shots, at 500fps, landing on or about the face of a crazy person. Is it better than nothing? Is it better than OC spray? Is it better than a Tazer? Or is it a flat out stupid idea on its face, and I should just do my best to run away instead? Remember, in a majority of defensive gun uses, the production of a firearm with threat is sufficient to stop the attack. That would not be optimal in this use, since you have very little bite to back up your bark. Still, it could keep a knife-wielding lunatic 30ft away from moving in your direction.

Is this lunacy? (I'm completely aware of how nutty it sounds)
Should I just carry my firearm concealed anywhere, hope for the best, and accept the legal actions taken against me if the gun is ever needed in these areas? Will you pay my legal fees? tango_face_grin
Has anyone given any thought to this?

Tell my I'm crazy. I'm a big boy. I'll get over it.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Unless you nail some in the temple or you can discourage someone by shooting out an eye I do not think it would do much except tick off an attacker. Air guns powerfull enough to take a boar or a deeer a large single shot affairs.


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## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

When I was a wee lad I carried an air soft pistol to handle dogs/neighbor kids..


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Camel923 said:


> Unless you nail some in the temple or you can discourage someone by shooting out an eye I do not think it would do much except tick off an attacker. Air guns powerfull enough to take a boar or a deeer a large single shot affairs.


I've seen the "big bore" air rifles, and was amazed how powerful they were.
As well as they might work, the impracticality is obvious.


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## Bigfoot63 (Aug 11, 2016)

Just a thought... But when all else is unavailable or restricted, a baseball bat is a defensive weapon... Just saying.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Bigfoot63 said:


> Just a thought... But when all else is unavailable or restricted, a baseball bat is a defensive weapon... Just saying.


Not really something that would go unnoticed until needed.
Also, a baseball bat with no apparent game could be construed to be a "club" under Texas law, even though a good attorney would beat the rap.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

I have never been shot with an airsoft gun but I have been shot with a paintball marker and those things can do some damage if cranked up high enough. I've seen them go through 1/4 plywood. If airsoft has the ability to be cranked up it might be an option for your scenario.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> I have never been shot with an airsoft gun but I have been shot with a paintball marker and those things can do some damage if cranked up high enough. I've seen them go through 1/4 plywood. If airsoft has the ability to be cranked up it might be an option for your scenario.


Airsoft uses a 6mm plastic BB.
I'm referring to guns that use steel BBs or lead pellets(which can come in the pointed tip variety). They are used in some hunting applications.
Far more effective and painful than an airsoft BB.
Unlike airsoft, the ones I'm talking about will easily break skin.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> Airsoft uses a 6mm plastic BB.
> I'm referring to guns that use steel BBs or lead pellets(which can come in the pointed tip variety). They are used in some hunting applications.
> Far more effective and painful than an airsoft BB.
> Unlike airsoft, the ones I'm talking about will easily break skin.


Oh, gotcha. Guess I should've read more carefully.

I've been shot by those, we used to have BB gun fights as kids, and yes they can hurt like hell. I've had more than one stuck under my skin. I'm surprised I didn't shoot an eye out.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> Oh, gotcha. Guess I should've read more carefully.
> 
> I've been shot by those, we used to have BB gun fights as kids, and yes they can hurt like hell. I've had more than one stuck under my skin. I'm surprised I didn't shoot an eye out.


My brother-in-law still has a BB embedded under his skin on his knuckle. He likes to gross people out by poking it and watching it move.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> My brother-in-law still has a BB embedded under his skin on his knuckle. He likes to gross people out by poking it and watching it move.


Our families would get along.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

I couldn't do it. I would not be able to hold a straight face while holding an air gun on someone's ass. Nonetheless, you make a very good point, that could be effective in some circumstances but shoot to kill or stop an intruder in their tracks? Likely not.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Money could be better spent. I'd be more worried about pissing the guy off making him shoot you with a real gun.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Chipper said:


> Money could be better spent. I'd be more worried about pissing the guy off making him shoot you with a real gun.


Correct, if you are going to point a gun at someone you better have some finality in mind.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

I read G. Gordon Liddy's (Nixon Whitehouse undercover operative for you young whippersnappers) autobiography long ago, but I remember him praising the 6mm air gun as an essential tool in his "work".


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Read up on what Lewis and Clark carried for defense and a game getter on their expedition.

Lewis and Clark's Girandoni Air Rifle
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BRAB&usg=AOvVaw0_jF0wXwHgNcs8cM2e406u&ampcf=1


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

There are some down right scary air gun out there. I am not using one for SD . But I would not want to shot by one at close range
Extreme Hunter Big Bore Air Rifles are manufactured in house.
We offer .308, .408, .457, 500 Nitro Express, .72 rifles and a 28 gauge shotgun.

Extreme Big Bore Air Rifles - Home


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Quackenbush 457. Two shots that will kill a buffalo. About same bullet as a 45-70


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

A Watchman said:


> I couldn't do it. I would not be able to hold a straight face while holding an air gun on someone's ass. Nonetheless, you make a very good point, that could be effective in some circumstances but shoot to kill or stop an intruder in their tracks? Likely not.


Yeah, I intended to clarify that I have no reasonable belief that this would stop an attacker cold. Sadly, most options to do so would be restricted from lawful carry or use in the areas I'm thinking about.

I'll narrow this down a bit and get specific.
Let's say I am attending an event at my child's school. Federal law prevents me from bringing a legally defined "firearm" to that campus, and Texas law prevents me from legally carrying one into the building. I'd be breaking state and federal law in doing so, and would hate to run that risk.
But... what option could I carry to give me *some* chance at slowing down an active shooter, or getting him to barricade himself and leave the rest of the building to evacuate. Yep, I'm fully aware that producing a gun will likely initiate gunfire from the shooter. That was his plan anyways. However, he didn't anticipate an armed response, even if it's only a bluff in reality.
I get that I'm not going to be killing the active shooter, or at least not directly. This is no more effective at physically hindering an attacker than deploying OC or electric shock, though OC certainly has a longer duration if effectively deployed. I carry OC where legal as well, and would prefer it if I have the range for that duration of effect benefit.

My anticipation of this use would be to convince the shooter that he will not face an unarmed target environment. What he does after that can't be any worse than his original plan. But if it makes him eat his own muzzle and repaint the hallway in grey matter, I'm good with that.
In almost all active shooter situations these guys kill themselves as soon as their fantasy world is fractured. First responders often encounter the shooter, engage them, and watch as they blow themselves away. These shooters are *always* cowards. They choose a soft target and expect no resistance. Placing a few hits on them from a real-ish gun could be enough to convince their brain that they're being shot.
(added benefit that just occurred to me... I know all rounds fired are unlikely to be lethal. I add no additional great risk to bystanders in the unfortunate event that one is struck by a "flyer". I'm sure they won't appreciate the welt though.)

To those suggesting the use of air rifles, those are certainly more powerful and capable of tremendous power. I think the most powerful one I found had an energy impact of 500ftlbs... with nothing but air. Holy damn!
They just aren't very practical or concealable.
The last thing I want is to be the guy who causes the cops to be called for a having a gun in a fish barrel... erm... I mean "gun free zone". Just as in firearm carry, we have to weigh the tradeoff between effectiveness and mobility. I'd prefer it to stay hidden.

I'm currently looking at 3 options. Considering the intention is to convince the shooter that he is facing an armed target, they all look like real firearms, have a velocity greater than 450fps, and can be easily concealed. When I'm back on my home PC, I'll link them to get opinions or actual experiences, if any.

*NEW ASPECT TO CONSIDER:*
Can anyone think of any legal implications with using a non-firearm in a defensive way in a place where a real firearm would be illegal?
Think of any instance where a mugger presents a "gun" and demands money. Even when the "gun" is determined to be fake, they get charged with assault with a deadly weapon because it was their intention to convince the victim that they would use lethal force during the commission of the crime.
So, is there any precedence for using a gun that is not real to convince a criminal that it is real, and the user suffering any criminal charges?
Or, does the use of a non-real firearm only come in to play if it is used during the commission of another crime?
I know we have some officers on here. Any info on this possibility?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

While at dinner this evening, my wife brought up a deal she knew about for seeing a movie at a local theater. I reminded her that we're not welcome at that theater because they have a corporate policy prohibiting the lawful defense of innocent life with firearms. Their policy on violence perpetrated against their patrons seems to be "we'll cross that bridge after the bodies are cooled enough to build the bridge". So we've avoided it ever since.
But, with a can of OC and dozens of rounds of 550fps balls of hurt at my disposal, I *might* eventually convince myself to partake a time or two.

Geez... that sounds so pathetic.
Now I know how it feels to live in Canada or France.
:vs_smirk:

Can you imagine if this ever becomes the country we find ourselves in? Where criminals do what criminals do, and the law abiding are stuck with stupid scenarios like this? Eventually it's going to get bad enough that a declarative expletive will be uttered, and I'll just carry whatever I darn well please. I'm not there yet, but I'm close.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Finally sat down at *looks at clock* 2AM :Yikes: to link those options I've found.

From weakest to strongest:
Smith & Wesson M&P: .177 Smith & Wesson M&P Black CO2 BB Pistol
19 rounds
480fps








Crosman C11: .177 Crosman C11 CO2 BB Gun
18 rounds
480fps








Daisy Powerline 415: .177 Daisy Powerline 415 Semi-Auto CO2 BB Pistol
21 rounds
500fps








SIG Sauer P226: .177 SIG Sauer P226 CO2 BlowBack Pellet Pistol, Black
16 rounds
510fps








The first 3 are sold locally. The last would have to be ordered or I'd have to take a short road trip.
You can see that they vary in cost quite a bit. I'll need to do more research to see if any of them are reliable or even capable of making a good bluff. The M&P and SIG both mimic their real counterparts almost 1:1, even in weight. The SIG is almost identical to the real deal. By that, I mean a metal frame and slide. So it could be used as a blunt force strike tool if needed, and stay together.

I dunno. This still kinda feels dumb.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

I pay no attention to “firearms prohibited” signs except in schools and government buildings. In commercial buildings these signs carry no weight. Worst case, they ask you to leave. If you leave when asked, no harm, no foul. Now schools and government buildings are a whole different story. Carry there and you are asking for legal trouble. I wouldn’t be concerned at all about carrying in a theater. Now days you would be crazy not to be armed at the movies! Hell, I carried a 45 when seeing Phantom of the Opera years ago. (The show was not in NY)


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Something's better than nothing. Under certain circumstances, it could at least by some time. They're easy to get and affordable. Annie likes. I wonder what the laws are here in NJ.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> I pay no attention to "firearms prohibited" signs except in schools and government buildings. In commercial buildings these signs carry no weight. Worst case, they ask you to leave. If you leave when asked, no harm, no foul. Now schools and government buildings are a whole different story. Carry there and you are asking for legal trouble. I wouldn't be concerned at all about carrying in a theater. Now days you would be crazy not to be armed at the movies! Hell, I carried a 45 when seeing Phantom of the Opera years ago. (The show was not in NY)


Yeah, as I mentioned, this would likely be for places where there is a federal prohibition on firearms, like a school. In Texas, businesses are free to post legally binding signs, and their violation is a class C misdemeanor. Failing to leave when asked bumps it up to a higher level. My place of business posts this sign. It sucks.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Finally sat down at *looks at clock* 2AM :Yikes: to link those options I've found.
> 
> From weakest to strongest:
> Smith & Wesson M&P: .177 Smith & Wesson M&P Black CO2 BB Pistol
> ...


Agree Kauboy.

Could be a nice little training tool and certainly an introduction gun that mimic the real thing to allow youngsters to learn.

Other than that...:vs_worry:


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Are black powder pistols considered firearms in Texas?
I know (because of my gun rights) that in New Mexico, a black powder pistol with six shots doesn't have to be registered.
I will ask the Sheriff here what he knows?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Deebo said:


> Are black powder pistols considered firearms in Texas?
> I know (because of my gun rights) that in New Mexico, a black powder pistol with six shots doesn't have to be registered.
> I will ask the Sheriff here what he knows?


As far as Texas goes, yes blackpowder arms are considered firearms. There is one small caveat for a particular design of firearm, and it had to be manufactured prior to 1899.
From a federal standpoint, there is a carve out for "antique firearms or replicas", which are defined as matchlocks, fintlocks, and other blackpowder options. These types are not considered firearms from a federal level.
However, state law would trump federal law if I was found to be carrying a blackpowder handgun in a place where both laws overlap and Texas prohibited firearms there.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Slippy said:


> Agree Kauboy.
> 
> Could be a nice little training tool and certainly an introduction gun that mimic the real thing to allow youngsters to learn.
> 
> Other than that...:vs_worry:


Right... I'm about ready to talk myself out of it.
That won't stop me from picking one up and seeing just how well it works. But I might stop short of ever actually carrying one as an alternative.

Jury is still out... but a verdict is coming soon.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

@Kauboy, exactly what the sheriff said.
I wonder what a paintball gun with marbles would do?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Deebo said:


> @Kauboy, exactly what the sheriff said.
> I wonder what a paintball gun with marbles would do?


The trick would be finding a combination that fits and fires well. There are a few paintball guns out there designed as handguns, and they can use various types of ammunition. They make paint, obviously, but also rubber rounds, hard plastic rounds, and even pepper ball rounds. The pepper ball rounds are nowhere near as effective as I'd hoped they would be. If you don't nail 'em in the face or the round doesn't burst due to hitting a soft area, almost no effect is suffered aside from pain.
A marble would be good, but the weight would require significant air pressure to launch at any great speed. It might not be possible in a compact design, or you only get 1 or 2 shots.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)




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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

@Deebo, thanks for that video dude! That was awesome. Those "breaker balls" would break some balls, and maybe an orbital socket. Wow.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I stopped by the local Academy on the way home today and picked up the Daisy 415 from the previous page. I had already planned to play with this one, since it was on the higher velocity end, and on sale this week! I think it was $22. Picked up some CO2 and some Hornady "Black Diamond" anodized steel BBs. Grabbed a $10 steel funnel trap target too.
Set it up in the house (probably not the best idea), loaded a cartridge, loaded the top-fed magazine (not designed for quick reloads) and popped off a shot at the trap.
WOW is this thing loud on a new cartridge. I haven't had an ear ringing like that in a while. Missed the first shot, but my cardboard pile backstop must have caught it because I never heard it hit anything else. Second shot hit target, more ear ringing, and a nice *PING* and rattle from the steel trap. There is a lot more force in those BBs than I was expecting.
The loud report is good. More "bark" to bluff and delay a shooter.

The energy doesn't compare to those "breaker ball" rounds from Deebo's linked video (3.8 ftlbs vs 16ftlbs), but the smaller round will still likely penetrate exposed skin. I'm not brave enough to test that theory, and have been searching the net for a definitive answer. The general consensus seems to be a .177 diameter round traveling at anything over 300fps will break skin. This Daisy is stated to push 495fps on the packaging. Likely less under "real world" conditions.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Annie said:


> I wonder what the laws are here in NJ.


If the Wikipedia page on air gun laws is to be believed, it states that New Jersey considers all "non-powder" guns to legally be firearms. That is a grossly ignorant law.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

After Deebo's shared video, I did some looking on alternative ammo for a paintball gun.
Check these out: Product Features - 0.68 Alternative paintball - Self defense painball
The two that gave me particular interest are the rubber coated glass marble and the one filled with iron powder.
They are specifically designed to be as lethal as possible.
Finding a concealable marker to fire them would be a challenge, however. lain:


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Well maybe not self defense but a start on train up. Had grandson on the range today with .117 pellet rifle. He done good. Another bit of anit snowflake training. He was also employed as a spotter for some 308 work.


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## Bigfoot63 (Aug 11, 2016)

When I was a kid, I got shot in the throat by a .177 cal. Lead pellet. Did not penetrate, but did break the skin, bled for about half hour. While obviously not lethal in ts case, it did knock the wind out of me... I was not able to take a deep breath for several minutes. Keep in mind this was a break barrel single shot pellet gun some 43 years ago, not one of the newer more powerful rifles that are out there today. Might not be lethal except under ideal shot placement but definitely a deterrent. Especially a facial shot.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Well, if you were shooting at my face and eyes with one of these, I sure would consider reversing course... beats a sharp stick by a country mile.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Went to store and found a great sale on ammo. My wife said I could by 1 box. Maxed out my credit card.


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## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

After reading all 4 pages... I can't believe nobody else thought of this idea... a flare gun! Single shot, 12 gauge with a range of a few hundred feet. Doesn't require any paperwork. Not sure how old you have to be to buy one, but it would sure get the attention of a bad guy who wasn't expecting anyone to pull out a defensive weapon. :tango_face_wink:


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> While your eyebrow is still cocked, let me clarify.............Has anyone given any thought to this?
> 
> Tell my I'm crazy. I'm a big boy. I'll get over it.


Yes, Kauboy, . . . I have, . . . and NO you most definitely are not crazy.

I started thinking about this when I pondered the options I had if my primary CC was out of commission for a while.

My first option would be a .38 Colt Detective special, . . . and my wife would be defenseless, . . . bad idea.

Second option would be one of my Browning .22 semi auto pistols. 10 rounds in the face may not do the damage that 9 .45 ACP rounds would do to the torso, . . . but I'll just betcha he'll stand up and take notice, . . . especially when I load the second mag and if he is still being a pest, . . . I got ten more for him.

Which leads me to your question, . . . considering that the face is "per square inch" one of the most sensitive areas to touch or to pain, . . . I'm thinking a .177 air gun, . . . especially if it could crank out 20 or 30 pellets before it ran out of air, . . . could be a formidable deterrent to someone wanting to work you over.

AND, . . . if it had the "look" of a big bore pistol, . . . it might be enough to send the bad dude packing, . . . seeing as how most stick up artists are cowards to begin with.

It does make for a viable alternative, . . . especially if the locality has no law disallowing it. But if you really want an in-depth analysis, . . . send me one in 1911 form, . . . a couple of cases of CO2 tanks and a couple thousand pellets, . . . during the remainder of the summer, . . . I'll get some volunteers and some teenagers here to give you a really good analysis, . . . :vs_laugh:

May God bless,
Dwight


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> While your eyebrow is still cocked, let me clarify...
> 
> I do NOT condone the use of an airgun as a primary means of self-defense if ANYTHING better is possible.
> 
> ...


Good thoughts on that. No doubt a round from a speedy pellet gun go into a human skull and not come out most likely.


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## Caribou (Nov 11, 2018)

Anything manufactured prior to 1899 is not considered a firearm and can be legally sold interstate without an FFL and it can be shipped through the mail. These guns are primarily revolvers and long guns but some pistols are out there. They are available in modern cartridges that would be adequate to your needs. Expect to pay a premium. As long as you kept this gun concealed the question would never come up. If you needed to defend yourself or family, or if someone found out, I'd expect to be arrested but not charged. State and local laws will also apply and I only know my own. I am not an attorney and I don't play one on TV, consult a local attorney before following any internet advice.

Personally, I avoid most places where I can't legally carry. The "No Wallet" signs, I respect though they hold no legal status here. If you don't want my gun you don't want my wallet and I will not provide you with a profit.

Any airgun small enough to conceal is unlikely to to provide an adequate defence. It will likely increase the probability of being shot by either the bad guy or the cops. 

No matter where you are when you pull and/or fire a gun I would expect to get arrested, be ready for that eventuality. I get my self defence insurance from the Armed Citizens Legal Defence Fund.


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## Ant_dawg (Jan 28, 2019)

I got shot in the leg with a co2 bb gun and it brought me to my knees. I couldt imaging if he shot me 5-10 times in the chest or face


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I don't think this is that crazy. In fact, I think most people buy "more gun" than they need.

For example, as a nation we are in love with the AR and the AK. Most preppers would be better served with both a Ruger 1022 rifle and a Ruger 10/45 pistol.

Consider most encounters. Few will be fought to the death, but blood from a pellet (or even a slight cut with a Swiss Army Knife) will most often have the attacker retreat to think it over.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

Ant_dawg said:


> I got shot in the leg with a co2 bb gun and it brought me to my knees. I couldt imaging if he shot me 5-10 times in the chest or face


my cousin's kid was involved in some school event involving air rifles - of course a few have to dumbazz >>>> one kid took a pellet in the chest, got air lifted out and needed open heart surgery to save his life .... nothing to take that litely ....


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I just remembered, isn't there a high-powered airgun used for shooting and killing small game? I forget the name.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Oh yes, air *rifles* are a whole different ballgame. You can hunt big game with some of those things.

This thread was geared toward the handgun side of things, concealable and inconspicuous. Reducing the size of the gun greatly reduces its potential, unfortunately.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I was referring to the mechanism, not trying to undermine the OP.


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