# First Aid types, tourniquets why so expensive?



## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Today, I signed up for a Carbine course. I have been kicking over the idea of what I want to have with me going forward as I further train with my long guns and pistols. I'm looking at running with a chest rig that holds magazines to feed the belt worn mag 3 pack. On the chest rig I'm looking at, their are molle straps for attaching a trauma kit. There is a strong probability that my training and practice going forward will be solo at the range out in the woods. And if I have an accidental shooting, I need to be ready to deal with it, hence my desire to put a kit together. I already carry a FAK in my GO bag, but it too does not have a tourniquet in it at this time. So I was shopping online looks like $25-$30 is the going price. Sounds a little pricey for what it is. I want one that is easily self applied!


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

A good nylon belt and a stick, make a decent tourniquet that can be self applied. 

A coiled up older style 80s -90s bdu belt with a tactical pen takes up very little room. Try getting a hold of military surplus tourniquets.

The only reason I have dedicated tourniquets are because they were issued to me. Otherwise I would not bother with them.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

It's expensive because the guy who designs them is an dick, and thinks he is better than everyone, including the people he works with who approve his work, and do his leg work.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Of course the best answer is to not have an negligent shooting. NEGLIGENT, not accidental. There is no accidental squeeze of a trigger.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I carry a tourniquet on my EDC, but don't consider it to be a "go-to" option. There are many reasons *NOT* to use one, and only a few for why one should be used.
If you've not trained to apply one with one hand, you're as good as dead if you ever need to.
Your better options are blood stopper bandages, or z-bandages, or combat gauze(quikclot), or pressure wrappings, etc...
They are easier to apply, normally, and less risky.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

You can stop bleeding with an air splint, too. Don't know if it would work for your situation.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

I envision injuring myself on the range, being by myself, and needing some type of medical attention that I can handle before paramedics arrive. So having a useful kit on hand I think is a better idea than just hoping I survive before the paramedics arrive. I don't plan on a ND, but I am not foolish enough to believe it can't happen.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Pay the price and get one. If you ever need it, you won't care how much it cost. I have a SOFTT in my range bag.

I also carry 2 Asherman type chest seals, a QuickClot Z-Fold, a couple different sizes of nasopharyngeal airways, and a bunch of other stuff. 

Tourniquets can save your life if you get shot in the right place (is there a right place to get shot?) but what if you take one in the chest or shoulder or crotch? If yer gonna be prepared, might as well be prepared for whatever.

As has been mentioned, tourniquets shouldn't be your first option. Direct pressure will stop most bleeding, but if you are squirting blood from a severed artery, don't be shy about using one. As aways, get proper training if you can.

People think I'm nuts for carrying this stuff, but for me, it comes down to this... the paras might be out on another call, at the scene of a multi-car pileup, or have an accident while trying to get to me. I tend to depend on me first. I know I'll be there, and I know I'll have the tools to at least try to save myself or someone else. I'll take a 50% chance over a 0% chance all day long.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> Pay the price and get one. If you ever need it, you won't care how much it cost. I have a SOFTT in my range bag.
> 
> I also carry 2 Asherman type chest seals, a QuickClot Z-Fold, a couple different sizes of nasopharyngeal airways, and a bunch of other stuff.
> 
> ...


Exactly, hence the reason I want to have those items on hand.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> I tend to depend on me first. I know I'll be there


I think this belongs in our memorable quotes thread.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

It's why I always wear a belt.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

Cost is relative. Pet insurance runs us about $1,600 annually for our four dogs. That seemed like (and is) a LOT of money. One of our dogs was just diagnosed with and treated for cancer. The costs for that ran about 11K. Her $400/year premium which covered 80% of that sure seems like money well spent now!


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

A triangular bandage (arm Sling) and anything straight to twist for compression effect will do, don't buy into that crap your looking at.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

shizmit dude just use an old pair of socks or something for a tourniquet -
they charge that cause bat-foons don't know that you can use 1000 things that you carry every day for a tourniquet.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

As usual I ask a question and then start reading and searching for an answer to gauge responses against. I could go to the local camping store and buy some 1" wide webbing and construct one from that. What I have read so far is that the US Army has testing standards for tourniquets. Some on the market don't meet standards. Some I have seen on amazon. I have never had to apply one, but if someone or me is splurting blood, its time to apply. I plan to get a quick clot sponges pack, to go along with the tourniquet and a tampon and 4x4s and tape or gauze for pressure bandages. And of course go smaller for minor stuff. I just want to be sure what I end up with works. I'll search YouTube a bit and see what alternatives I find.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Wow, that did not take long, ran across a rats tourniquet, guy did a demo and had a monitor of oxygen in blood stream on his toe. Worked great one handed. After watching the video, I don't see how a belt could be effective enough.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Most of the first responder/field expedient/EMT supplies are a tad on the expensive side. I've look at the same tourniquets and so far have passed on them simply because of the price and limited use.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

They took out tourniquets from Aussie first aid courses a long time ago.... Better off with quick clot or similar.... But for a major trauma... First aid, you may only have seconds and definitely a pressure bandage will be unrealistic considering you will be your own casualty... So would include powder items that are easy to use one handed.. Like quick clot... And base the kit additions on that...


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Old school army medicine (when we did things right) says tourniquet for arterial bleeding. Otherwise pressure dressing for one hour. If that doesn't stop bleeding apply a second dressing. If bleeding still doesn't stop, then tourniquet. 

Quick clot is iffy. Most clotting agents are. BEST bet right now is combat gauze. 

This coming from the guy who's job it was until recently to research traumatic hemorrhage (extreme bleeding from serious wounds)


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Seriously though, that really is why they are so expensive. Dude has a whole 2x3 box full of em, and wouldn't hook me up with not a single one.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

I had lots of window time today, came up with a solution based upon a RATS tourniquet. I'm going to Home Depot and buy about a 5' length of rubber surgical tubing, going to put a loop on one end of it with a zip tie and then on the other end I'll attach a binder clip. To apply, end through the loop to make a noose, pull it down tight and wrap it many times around the limb in trouble, use the clip to secure. Can apply single handed. Cheap effective done!


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

GasholeWillie said:


> I had lots of window time today, came up with a solution based upon a RATS tourniquet. I'm going to Home Depot and buy about a 5' length of rubber surgical tubing, going to put a loop on one end of it with a zip tie and then on the other end I'll attach a binder clip. To apply, end through the loop to make a noose, pull it down tight and wrap it many times around the limb in trouble, use the clip to secure. Can apply single handed. Cheap effective done!


Good luck with wrapping a severely mangled limb, or even one just wounded bad enough to need a tourniquet, like that.

I'm guessing very few of you have ever properly applied a tourniquet to yourself, or had one applied.

It hurts like hell.

Add in the pain of your injury, and well...


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> Good luck with wrapping a severely mangled limb, or even one just wounded bad enough to need a tourniquet, like that.
> 
> I'm guessing very few of you have ever properly applied a tourniquet to yourself, or had one applied.
> 
> ...


Well you have really not offered up much of a solution since I started this thread, other than an in between the lines suggesting we all stay home and never go out and risk getting injured while training or getting better equipped to deal with personal circumstances. I get it that you have studied, practiced and participated in actions that few of us will ever experience in our lives. I HOPE I never have to use a tourniquet, especially on myself. So is that a good enough reason to not have one on hand to use? Oh Eff' it, Jakthesoldier said I would be too injured or in pain to use one so I did not bother, I'll just sit here and bleed out.

It turns out that the tubing I was thinking about using, costs as much as the RATS tourniquet, so I may scrap that idea and just buy one.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

GasholeWillie said:


> Well you have really not offered up much of a solution since I started this thread, other than an in between the lines suggesting we all stay home and never go out and risk getting injured while training or getting better equipped to deal with personal circumstances. I get it that you have studied, practiced and participated in actions that few of us will ever experience in our lives. I HOPE I never have to use a tourniquet, especially on myself. So is that a good enough reason to not have one on hand to use? Oh Eff' it, Jakthesoldier said I would be too injured or in pain to use one so I did not bother, I'll just sit here and bleed out.
> 
> It turns out that the tubing I was thinking about using, costs as much as the RATS tourniquet, so I may scrap that idea and just buy one.


He didn't say you shouldn't have one. He said their use is limited, and an improvised one can be even more difficult to apply in a stressful situation.
CATs are designed to be as easy to apply and use under high stress as possible. If you take shrapnel to the femoral artery, you need something that will stop that bleeder in under 2 minutes or you'll pass out and die.
That's why these are expensive. They are well designed, patented, and not easy to replicate with similar simplicity.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

well gasshole figure this they charge a lot basically cause regular people don't know you can use even a rope for a Turney-kit so they shuck out $$$ because they gots to have the real thing and what jack said- kind of like the word tactical slap that on something and a flock of would-be's just got to have that one. again a large rubber band, IV tubing, your belt(as suggested on here) ,shoe/boot laces, and bicycle inner tube anything that you can wrap around the limb and snug it down to cut off circulation can be used -in the medical world we have a rubber strap about an inch wide and about 1 foot long we use-the cravats you see GI's wearing as dew rags on their heads those are used regularly for tourniquets how much do they cost like a buck or something at a surplus store.
does this help you out any?


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Medic33 said:


> well gasshole figure this they charge a lot basically cause regular people don't know you can use even a rope for a Turney-kit so they shuck out $$$ because they gots to have the real thing and what jack said- kind of like the word tactical slap that on something and a flock of would-be's just got to have that one. again a large rubber band, IV tubing, your belt(as suggested on here) ,shoe/boot laces, and bicycle inner tube anything that you can wrap around the limb and snug it down to cut off circulation can be used -in the medical world we have a rubber strap about an inch wide and about 1 foot long we use-the cravats you see GI's wearing as dew rags on their heads those are used regularly for tourniquets how much do they cost like a buck or something at a surplus store.
> does this help you out any?


My idea sprung from watching the RATS youtube video. Today I bought a 10 foot length of latex tubing from Depot, which is basically what the RATS guy had and it will do the same thing, make a noose, snug down on the limb, and start wrapping about 3 times around and pinch off to hold in place. Not rocket surgery. One RATS unit on line was $20 or so. 10 ft of the tubing was $18, I could make 2 of them for that price. I still might do it just to prove to self that they will probably be better than me trying to use a belt or rope because the latex tubing is stretchy. I think the RATS guy is using a bungy cord.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

You asked why they are so expensive. I told you why. I worked two desks away from the man who designs them for 2 years. He is a jerk. He thinks he is better than everyone. He feels he needs lots of money for his work on top of his overly abundant government salary (gs18 or so) 

You stated you might accidentally shoot yourself. 
There are no accidental shootings. It's negligence. 

You suggested using tubing.
I pointed out that your solution isn't viable.

I never said don't get one. 
I suggest you have several, especially if you picture yourself being so negligent as to shoot yourself.

I further suggest practicing in its use, so you will fully understand that a properly applied tourniquet can hurt worse than the gunshot itself.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> You asked why they are so expensive. I told you why. I worked two desks away from the man who designs them for 2 years. He is a jerk. He thinks he is better than everyone. He feels he needs lots of money for his work on top of his overly abundant government salary (gs18 or so)
> 
> You stated you might accidentally shoot yourself.
> There are no accidental shootings. It's negligence.
> ...


So I went back and re read the whole thread. You never suggested anything constructive about tubing not being viable alternative to say a RATS. Just good luck trying to self apply, says nothing or means nothing to anyone else reading the thread. This is basic Boy Scout or Red Cross training, IIRC they show/train various ways of improvising a tourniquet. Range accidents happen, so do accidents with chain saws, power saws, and lawnmowers and vehicles. I don't give a tinkers flip as to how close you work to some guy who invented something and you got butt hurt over because he would not give you one to test. Perhaps his opinion of you is equal to your opinion of him, but I don't see him out on a Prepper forum talking trash on his invention.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

a bungee cord would prolly work great. and no it is not rocket science and doesn't require a whole lot of medical knowledge to apply one *just remember this *if you put one on leave it on the limb is most likely gone and mark the person with a T on the forehead. -I don't care what or how much medical knowledge you know or have it is best to leave it on until they can get to a emergency medical facility. that tighten loosen every 5-15 minutes is crap and can get someone killed via embolism.
a tourniquet is a last resort to stop severe bleeding -all the gunshot wounds I worked on to the extremities(arms, legs) including myself I first found the entrance and exit(if there is one) area then just slapped a couple gauze pads like 4x4's folded of course over both and wrapped snug with some roller gauze and taped them I have even used ace wraps, now shrapnel and blast wounds are a whole nother animal and yah I did use a tourniquet a few times on these.
yes accidents happen all the freaking time if they didn't than ER's would probably go out of business.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Medic33 said:


> a bungee cord would prolly work great. and no it is not rocket science and doesn't require a whole lot of medical knowledge to apply one *just remember this *if you put one on leave it on the limb is most likely gone and mark the person with a T on the forehead. -I don't care what or how much medical knowledge you know or have it is best to leave it on until they can get to a emergency medical facility. that tighten loosen every 5-15 minutes is crap and can get someone killed via embolism.
> a tourniquet is a last resort to stop severe bleeding -all the gunshot wounds I worked on to the extremities(arms, legs) including myself I first found the entrance and exit(if there is one) area then just slapped a couple gauze pads like 4x4's folded of course over both and wrapped snug with some roller gauze and taped them I have even used ace wraps, now shrapnel and blast wounds are a whole nother animal and yah I did use a tourniquet a few times on these.
> yes accidents happen all the freaking time if they didn't than ER's would probably go out of business.


Yes, I can say this, based upon my level of training and the items I have in my FAK, this is the final piece of that puzzle that has been missing. It is my absolute last resort method to help save a life, my first resort is always direct pressure with something designed to sop up blood. My chances of ever using one are very very low. And that is where this thread ends for me.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

GasholeWillie said:


> So I went back and re read the whole thread. You never suggested anything constructive about tubing not being viable alternative to say a RATS. Just good luck trying to self apply, says nothing or means nothing to anyone else reading the thread. This is basic Boy Scout or Red Cross training, IIRC they show/train various ways of improvising a tourniquet. Range accidents happen, so do accidents with chain saws, power saws, and lawnmowers and vehicles. I don't give a tinkers flip as to how close you work to some guy who invented something and you got butt hurt over because he would not give you one to test. Perhaps his opinion of you is equal to your opinion of him, but I don't see him out on a Prepper forum talking trash on his invention.


Let me break this down, since you are clearly getting wrapped around the axle.

First, I never bashed the invention, I stated it was expensive because the inventor is a jerk. That has nothing to do with opinion, it's a fact. The royalties on his products are through the roof.

I said good luck because you clearly are unaware of a few very important details of tourniquet application.

One. It has to be painfully tight to function. When you are already in excruciating pain, it's not easy to inflict more on yourself. So you most likely wouldn't be able to get tubing tight enough.

Two. Aside from the high probability of inflicting further injury on yourself in doing so, moving an injured limb is going to hurt. A lot. Refer to 1 for why that's an issue. But moving a limb to wrap tubing around it isn't a "one man" operation.

Three. I suggested actually applying a tourniquet to yourself properly so you can actually experience the amount of pain you will be inflicting upon a limb already in pain. It really hurts like hell.

Four. You continue to defend the idea that you can accidentally shoot something. You can't. It's not possible. You might not intend it, but that doesn't make it an accident. It's NEGLIGENCE. Period and end of discussion. If you opperate a dangerous or potentially dangerous object, you need to be focused on what you are doing. Follow proper procedures. Handle a weapon properly. Pay attention when you saw. Etc. If you actually believe you might NEGLIGENTLY shoot yourself, put the gun down and don't touch it until you have been properly trained. Catastrophic weapon failure I can see being a concern, but not self inflicted gunshot wounds.

Now that I cleared all that CONSTRUCTIVE criticism up, let me go the other way.

I recommend any product that jack wagon develops. Asinine though he may be, he knows his stuff better than I know how to pick my nose.

The reason his products are awesome is that they allow you to simply pass a narrow piece of material under the wounded limb and all the rest of the action happens on top. You loop the band through a ring, cinch it down, and hook and loop fasteners (velcro) holds it in place while you use the twister stick to finish the tightening. The stick then slips into a groove that holds it in place. Done.

If that is too expensive, a belt with full velcro or holes to the buckle can be used (not a "cowboy buckle" type) a bandana or cravat or even an ace wrap can work as well. Put a stick against the limb, wrap the belt around and cinch down, then twist the stick until bleeding stops, and then figure something out to hold the stick in place, possibly propping it against the limb (this hurts like hell also)

If it's your arm, the belt is your best bet besides the CAT or RAT tourniquet, as it can be latched with one hand, while tying a decent knot one handed is difficult without worrying about bleeding out.

And then after all that, listen to what Medic says. Every bit is correct. The bungee cord part, is best when you have both hands, and better when applying to someone else.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Question to the medics/combat trained...
When improvising a tourney, should any regard be given to the width of the "band". I've read that severe tissue damage can occur as a result of using a band that was too thin. Is there any potential for worsening the situation by using something that was too thin?
Obviously, the goal is to stop copious blood loss, so some trade offs may just have to be made, but should it be considered when deciding on a pre-planned "improvised" device, like the tubing discussed here?


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

tissue damage will be the least of your concern -they already have it and if your going to apply a turny then it 's already to the point were it is life or limb in this case literally they are likely going to loose the limb to save their life- medicine has come along way and there is a good chance that if they or you can get (them) to a medical facility in time they may not loose the limb.
the correct answer kauboy = don't worry about it and use what you got.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

A triangular bandage has been used for centuries as a reliable tourniquet. You need a strong stick to twist it tight enough but it is a good emergency device. 
I was taught that once the tourniquet is on you leave it on. What happens if there is no medical care? Do you remove the limb? How do you keep from losing the patient from infection?


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

if by chance there is no medical -immediate attention should be given to what comes next = shock (poor perfusion of blood to the tissue read the whole body not just the injured area ) and eventually yes you are going to have to amputate. 
infection will be a problem but if your amputating not so much, blood loss will be minimal at first it is later (as in 6-12 hours) that will be more of a concern this is why way back when cauterizing was done immediately after the removal. A huge problem is going to be mental the PT is going to be very depressed(this may be and understatement) about the loss.
all I can say is hope you never have to


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

PaulS said:


> A triangular bandage has been used for centuries as a reliable tourniquet. You need a strong stick to twist it tight enough but it is a good emergency device.
> I was taught that once the tourniquet is on you leave it on. What happens if there is no medical care? Do you remove the limb? How do you keep from losing the patient from infection?


Post SHTF, with no medical care available, cut just above the damaged tissue, but below the wound, then cauterize. Make sure the blood vessels are closed by slightly loosening the tourniquet. Then, basically, you will need to stretch the skin to close over the wound, ensure the skin is clear of dead flesh, and stitch it closed like a sock. Pack with bandages and wrap. Observe closely for excessive bleeding or signs of infection. And pray. Lots of prayer. At this point medicine will be reduced to survival rates similar to the civil war. So surviving amputees will be few and far between.


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