# US Debt Clock at 21.970 TRILLION! (FEB 9. 2019)



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

The US continues to rack up debt like no one's business and we rarely hear anything about it?!?!?

I've posted before that part of my reasons to be prepared is an unsustainable federal government situation that will not end well.

By that I mean eventually the federal government will run out of other people's money to support these socialist programs and when that happens, a major crisis may occur.

Are we 10 years away? 20? 40 years? Or will this continue forever?


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

America owes more than it can pay, and I may live to see the collapse of money. These are really scary times, because there is no way to fix this.
I don't mean to sound abrupt, but America has played the fool: they have sowed to the wind, and they will reap the whirlwind.


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## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

@Slippy

Thanks for bringing this topic up (again). I heard this same number of 21 Trillion on the radio this week (Glenn Beck or Hannity show?) and wondered the same thing. How will it ever be paid off? To make this point even worse... is we paid $1 every second, it takes 37,000 years (and change) for every Trillion dollars. At that rate is would take 777,000 years (and change) to pay off the debt.

So perhaps someone with a better grip on society could explain how this debt gets paid off. Because I don't see it ever being paid off. I see a complete collapse happening within the next 10-30 years LONG before we get the first 10% paid off.

But my wife tells me I'm sometimes a Debbie Downer, so you shouldn't really take my word for it.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

As it has been written..............YMMV


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Heck , I gots a 15 year tin 2 Day @ MSF

https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/drowning-in-harrison-twp.635821/


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

As this is a debt-based economic system, the only thing that can be done is to add more debt.


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

And all you really hear about is the public's debt, but hey, many people are just following the Government's example. I'm not broke, look I still have *checks. 
It's crazy and irresponsable that the Government has gotten us this far in debt, when I was born it was about $2 billion. 

*For you youngins, checks were these little pieces of paper that came in a booklet, they were very popular in the last century. You filled one out by hand with a pen for the amount of money you wanted to spend and handed it over like cash. In the 21st century cash was similar to a credit card, Paypal, Apple pay, Google pay, online bill pay and cyber currency.


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## T-Man 1066 (Jan 3, 2016)

I wonder.. if we could somehow freeze spending, and every cent paid into the government went to pay the debt, how long would that take? I guarantee the answer would make you sick!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I suspect that the feds will come after We The People to pay this debt off. 

This retard Whatever Whatever-Cortez is a trend that we cannot stop...more of her ilk will come...and come after your money and property she will do..

This, I shit you not.


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## T-Man 1066 (Jan 3, 2016)

If you took her brain and shoved it up an ant's hind end it would be like throwing a rock in the Grand Canyon.

God save us!


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

The debt is one way I see the end starting... If the people we owe money too refuse to accept US DOLLARS... what will they take - Land, Property, water rights, our labor???


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

Unfunded wars of choice , huge tax breaks for the 1% and now billions for a big beutitful wall , 30 foot high concrete from ocean to ocean. 

But we cannot afford to put kids back with parents. Money to take them away but none to keep track of what we did with them and no money to get them back to a parent. Wise well thought out plan of action ---NOT. 

Enjoy your tax bill -it will likely be higher than last year or at least your refund will be smaller.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

I read a pretty decent article on SHTFPlan site a couple weeks back about the fall of the U.S. related to debt. It basically said that we will likely continue to see a slow death that will pick up steam as the end gets nearer. Things that we used to have money to do or buy, we will no longer be able to afford. We will slowly be forced to put more $ toward essentials like food as time goes by. Of course, the powers that be would not resist an opportunity along the way to SHTF the U.S. such as through an EMP if they thought that they could get away with it in order to destroy the U.S.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Don't worry, guys, because O'Scario Cortex is going to get us free money, pirate hats, rebuild all the current buildings, and many other two syllable words.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

If the federal government would just get out of the land-owning business in the western states, we could pay off the debt and have money left over.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

RedLion said:


> I read a pretty decent article on SHTFPlan site a couple weeks back about the fall of the U.S. related to debt. It basically said that we will likely continue to see a slow death that will pick up steam as the end gets nearer. Things that we used to have money to do or buy, we will no longer be able to afford. We will slowly be forced to put more $ toward essentials like food as time goes by. Of course, the powers that be would not resist an opportunity along the way to SHTF the U.S. such as through an EMP if they thought that they could get away with it in order to destroy the U.S.


I find this assessment very wise. What we are currently seeing is an increase in people who can no longer sustain a household - rent - people on the lower rungs who are now living in tent cities. In this town, plenty of older people - 60's and 70's - who have small pensions or SS are renting rooms to get by, and even that is starting to exceed their abilities to stay afloat. "Got a room to rent?" seems to be the question I hear all the time now... everyone looking for something they can afford. Were I a young man, I would find this economy welcoming and get busy. But it seems, at least here, that older people on fixed incomes are discovering prices crossing a threshold they cannot continue to pay. Another reason to fix our money, so's TPTB cannot print it and dilute the purchasing power of the dollar.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

StratMaster said:


> I find this assessment very wise. What we are currently seeing is an increase in people who can no longer sustain a household - rent - people on the lower rungs who are now living in tent cities. In this town, plenty of older people - 60's and 70's - who have small pensions or SS are renting rooms to get by, and even that is starting to exceed their abilities to stay afloat. "Got a room to rent?" seems to be the question I hear all the time now... everyone looking for something they can afford. Were I a young man, I would find this economy welcoming and get busy. But it seems, at least here, that older people on fixed incomes are discovering prices crossing a threshold they cannot continue to pay. Another reason to fix our money, so's TPTB cannot print it and dilute the purchasing power of the dollar.


You are spot on with the elderly. At least my experience working with homeless elderly veterans for the VA. Limited income that makes them lucky to be able to afford a room to rent in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area. The 5th worst market for finding affordable housing in the U.S. We do help a decent number get housed either through the VA section 8 housing program called "HUDVASH" or through other senior subsidized housing.
I have seen more elderly veterans enter into one of the community-based VA transitional housing programs that I oversee the past 3 years.


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

One could make the argument that gallivanting around the world protecting our interests in foreign lands may be detrimental to our interests. 
If we turned the majority of our focus inward, tightened up our borders, reigned in the ability of the 1% to run amok and exert our efforts into making this country self reliant, educate our children, make it possible for all Americans the ability to take care of their health and wellbeing it would make this a truly great nation once again. 
But the status quo is to pretend everything is fine because it keeps a very small minority group so far on top it's egregious.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

RedLion said:


> You are spot on with the elderly. At least my experience working with homeless elderly veterans for the VA. Limited income that makes them lucky to be able to afford a room to rent in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area. The 5th worst market for finding affordable housing in the U.S. We do help a decent number get housed either through the VA section 8 housing program called "HUDVASH" or through other senior subsidized housing.
> I have seen more elderly veterans enter into one of the community-based VA transitional housing programs that I oversee the past 3 years.


I spent the first 49 years of my life in Minnesota. I did not realize how truly expensive it was there until we left! Minnesota is not THE most expensive state for anything, but they are in the 10% most expensive for almost EVERYTHING. Since leaving, I am working 3/4 the time I was working there and my disposable income has more than doubled. (I am self-employed, so my job remained the same.)

It was no "one thing" that was so expensive there. But a combination of a bunch of little things made all the difference in the world.

Red Lion my friend, my advice to you is finish your time at Ft. Snelling, then hop on I-35 south and don't stop for anything but gas at least until you hit the Oklahoma state line! It is a WHOLE different and better world south of I-40, I-10 is even better, and south of I-10 (my new stomping ground) is God's Country!


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

RedLion said:


> We do help a decent number get housed either through the VA section 8 housing program called "HUDVASH" or through other senior subsidized housing.
> I have seen more elderly veterans enter into one of the community-based VA transitional housing programs that I oversee the past 3 years.


And thank you for doing that!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

RJAMES said:


> Unfunded wars of choice , huge tax breaks for the 1% and now billions for a big beutitful wall , 30 foot high concrete from ocean to ocean.
> 
> But we cannot afford to put kids back with parents. Money to take them away but none to keep track of what we did with them and no money to get them back to a parent. Wise well thought out plan of action ---NOT.
> 
> Enjoy your tax bill -it will likely be higher than last year or at least your refund will be smaller.


You are an IDIOT.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Slippy said:


> You are an IDIOT.


I was so happy when it appeared as if nobody was going to take the trolling bait.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Denton said:


> I was so happy when it appeared as if nobody was going to take the trolling bait.


I can't help myself, the IDIOT has an IQ of 70 and shouldn't be allowed near sharp objects.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I disagree. Then again, for years I've advocated for the removal of warning labels, too.


Slippy said:


> I can't help myself, the IDIOT has an IQ of 70 and shouldn't be allowed near sharp objects.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Touche' my friend, touche'! 

(Slippy pulls out his notebook entitled REASONS I LIKE DENTON and starts to flip page after page after page after page...:vs_closedeyes:_)


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

According to an article I just read, the Fed Chairman is very concerned about this.
And, in the article, it stated that of the $21.9 trillion debt, $16 trillion is owned by the public.

I barely passed Economics in high school (it was a required course in the 1960's). Help me out, please.

So, my question is, what happens if a lot of people have no choice but to file bankruptcy? What happens to that $16 trillion? Is the US government forced to "eat it"?
In a mass bankruptcy scenario, what would the effects be on my wife and I who have no debt at all? (Not even a credit card).


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Denton said:


> I disagree. Then again, for years I've advocated for the removal of warning labels, too.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

rice paddy daddy said:


> According to an article I just read, the Fed Chairman is very concerned about this.
> And, in the article, it stated that of the $21.9 trillion debt, $16 trillion is owned by the public.
> 
> I barely passed Economics in high school (it was a required course in the 1960's). Help me out, please.
> ...


I'm curious myself. The Great Depression was deflationary in nature, the money supply drying up and prices shrinking. We had real money then as well (well, at least until FDR took most of it). The current scenario resembles the 1930's not one bit: Worthless money being printed, morally hazardous financial instruments not conceived of in the past, inflation (leading to hyper-inflation) and prices soaring. What happens to your LENDER, for example, if you pay your $1500 mortgage in dollars which have become worthless? With money worthless, only hard assets retain value. Land. Equipment. Gold. Silver. And @Slippy 's stash of bourbon.


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## Mosinator762x54r (Nov 4, 2015)

Slippy said:


> U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
> 
> The US continues to rack up debt like no one's business and we rarely hear anything about it?!?!?
> 
> ...


My favorite part of the debt clock is that number tucked down at the bottom in the middle...the "unfunded liabilities"...promises of future payouts based on services given today (promise to pay benefits).

One hundred twenty two TRILLION... lol...where they heck do we think that's going to come from when AI is supposed to displace up to 40% of jobs in the future? Productivity is going to go way down. And then revenues will follow...followed by tax receipts.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> According to an article I just read, the Fed Chairman is very concerned about this.
> And, in the article, it stated that of the $21.9 trillion debt, $16 trillion is owned by the public.
> 
> I barely passed Economics in high school (it was a required course in the 1960's). Help me out, please.
> ...


That's a good question, and I don't have the exact answer. I figure that is there is a mass bankruptcy-filing, it'll be because something bad has happened that will cause you problems.

The debt-based economic system was created with the understanding that it would fail. Simply using the currency, whether you use dollars, checks or credit cards, creates debt for the nation. Because of that, we as a nation are screwed. A reset will happen and it is overdue.
I'm sure you can imagine what will happen at that point. IRS, 401(k), pension, bank account; all those will be trashed. What you actually have will be those things that are real, like your preps.
I can only imagine what will be the reset. I'll bet you know what it's going to be.


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## Mosinator762x54r (Nov 4, 2015)

Denton said:


> That's a good question, and I don't have the exact answer. I figure that is there is a mass bankruptcy-filing, it'll be because something bad has happened that will cause you problems.
> 
> The debt-based economic system was created with the understanding that it would fail. Simply using the currency, whether you use dollars, checks or credit cards, creates debt for the nation. Because of that, we as a nation are screwed. A reset will happen and it is overdue.
> I'm sure you can imagine what will happen at that point. IRS, 401(k), pension, bank account; all those will be trashed. What you actually have will be those things that are real, like your preps.
> I can only imagine what will be the reset. I'll bet you know what it's going to be.


The dollar would lose all its value as a reserve currency. The world's confidence in the dollar is what keeps it propped up right now. If we write off that debt then we write off any confidence it has. And we all know all too well the Bretton Woods Agreement took away any other meaningful value attached to the dollar.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Mosinator762x54r said:


> The dollar would lose all its value as a reserve currency. The world's confidence in the dollar is what keeps it propped up right now. If we write off that debt then we write off any confidence it has. And we all know all too well the Bretton Woods Agreement took away any other meaningful value attached to the dollar.


The world's nations are dropping the dollar in order to get from underneath the control of D.C.


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

Denton said:


> That's a good question, and I don't have the exact answer. I figure that is there is a mass bankruptcy-filing, it'll be because something bad has happened that will cause you problems.
> 
> The debt-based economic system was created with the understanding that it would fail. Simply using the currency, whether you use dollars, checks or credit cards, creates debt for the nation. Because of that, we as a nation are screwed. A reset will happen and it is overdue.
> I'm sure you can imagine what will happen at that point. IRS, 401(k), pension, bank account; all those will be trashed. What you actually have will be those things that are real, like your preps.
> I can only imagine what will be the reset. I'll bet you know what it's going to be.


We had this in 2001 with the economic decline after 9/11 as a result of the financial experts getting their 15 mins of fame on TV doing their rendition of chicken little. 
As I recall even those with spotless credit saw an increase in the interest rates as the CC companies tried to recoup some of their losses from playing the greed card on those that were struggling to pay their debts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the CC companies ask the Government for a bail out but didn't get it. If you recall so many people lost their jobs, had their homes foreclose on, declared bankruptcy and many of them were just trying to keep a roof over their head, food in the frig and the lights on. 
Personally I managed to get thru it, but only by a nats ass and it cost me what little was left of my retirement.
My memory may be overlapping post 9/11 and 08 a bit, 08 was pretty much a repeat for me.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Denton said:


> The world's nations are dropping the dollar in order to get from underneath the control of D.C.


As I was (fruitlessly) trying to explain to another member, once we lose the petrodollar status entirely (much already gone due to BRICS) there is no longer any reason for foreign nations to stockpile dollars. This was an ingenious methodology by which to enjoy our standard of living, but at the expense of some of those other nations. There will be little pity for us when the dollar collapses... they cannot WAIT to see the Emperor revealed to have no clothes. I just closed on another sale of one of my properties... I see more gold in my immediate future.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Mosinator762x54r said:


> My favorite part of the debt clock is that number tucked down at the bottom in the middle...the "unfunded liabilities"...promises of future payouts based on services given today (promise to pay benefits).
> 
> One hundred twenty two TRILLION... lol...where they heck do we think that's going to come from when AI is supposed to displace up to 40% of jobs in the future? Productivity is going to go way down. And then revenues will follow...followed by tax receipts.
> 
> View attachment 95581


Excellent point Mosinator,

I think that The UNFUNDED LIABILITY (GAAP) of over $122 Trillion is the number that will eventually take the most powerful government in the world to its knees.

But some other alarming things is the TOTAL PERSONAL DEBT of $19 Trillion; MORTGAGE DEBT of nearly $16 T, STUDENT LOAN DEBT of $1.5 T, and CREDIT CARD DEBT of over $1 TRILLION. We all remember 2008 when the Housing Shit Sandwich was forced on us? It appears that we are nearly there again, this time with STUDENT LOAN DEBT.

If memory serves, In 2008, The SubPrime Mortgage Amount that the Federal Government was on the hook for was approx $1.4 T. Over half of that was delinquent which was the start of the crash.

The government was insistent that "EVERY ONE HAVE A HOME" and backed loans for every idiot to own a home, that didn't work out to well did it?

Since then the government has been insistent that "EVERY ONE GO TO COLLEGE". Now the government is on the hook for $1.5 in Student Loan debt, with deliquency rates rising amongst borrowers...See the trend?

So the question is, Do you want White or Wheat bread for your next Shit Sandwich?


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## T-Man 1066 (Jan 3, 2016)

Slippy said:


> Since then the government has been insistent that "EVERY ONE GO TO COLLEGE". Now the government is on the hook for $1.5 in Student Loan debt, with deliquency rates rising amongst borrowers...See the trend?


There was a day and a time when having a college degree was worth something, because only a small group had it. When "everybody" has a college degree it becomes relatively worthless, since those with degrees are a dime a dozen. Our company got bought out by a 12000 employee corporation based out of England. They put this tremendous value on college degrees. We now have a bunch of them. One is same position as me, senior manufacturing engineer, which I probably really shouldn't be considered an engineer because all I have is a tool and die journeyman card and 27 years in the industry. I am top level program and process/machining support for our whole machine shop. He has no shop experience, never seen a CNC until 5 months ago, never ran as much as a drill press or a burr bench. He makes up power points, charts, and does "lean manufacturing exercises". I make chips and sell-able product. Last time I checked we have never sold a chart or document, but we sell the hell out of cylinders. When everybody wants to go to college and be a "leader" but nobody is doing actual work, we are in for a rough ride.

3 ways to create wealth. Agriculture, mining, or manufacturing. EVERYTHING else, while necessary to a point, is not.


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

T-Man 1066 said:


> There was a day and a time when having a college degree was worth something, because only a small group had it. When "everybody" has a college degree it becomes relatively worthless, since those with degrees are a dime a dozen. Our company got bought out by a 12000 employee corporation based out of England. They put this tremendous value on college degrees. We now have a bunch of them. One is same position as me, senior manufacturing engineer, which I probably really shouldn't be considered an engineer because all I have is a tool and die journeyman card and 27 years in the industry. I am top level program and process/machining support for our whole machine shop. He has no shop experience, never seen a CNC until 5 months ago, never ran as much as a drill press or a burr bench. He makes up power points, charts, and does "lean manufacturing exercises". I make chips and sell-able product. Last time I checked we have never sold a chart or document, but we sell the hell out of cylinders. When everybody wants to go to college and be a "leader" but nobody is doing actual work, we are in for a rough ride.
> 
> 3 ways to create wealth. Agriculture, mining, or manufacturing. EVERYTHING else, while necessary to a point, is not.


Always one of my points as well. I've had a number of bosses with college degrees or educated in construction management that don't know the first thing about building a house let alone swinging a hammer, needless to say I tend to butt heads with them. Producing goods is the key to longevity, you can't eat spreadsheets and they make for poor shelters, and lets not forget that the human races has survived for 10 of thousands of years w/o spreadsheets.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

So we're 21.9 trillion in debt, huh? Maybe it's time to let Pelosi win the presidency.

And it would be fun to hear O'Scario Cortex tell her, "_Wow, that's the biggest check I ever wrote..._"

But Denton's comment is the one that scares me. If foreign countries are dumping the dollar, that will directly effect the cost of oil. To my knowledge, no matter which country buys ******* oil, they must use American currency. If that changes and we must trade the imams with shiny beads, we might not get the same bang for our bucks.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Inor said:


> I spent the first 49 years of my life in Minnesota. I did not realize how truly expensive it was there until we left! Minnesota is not THE most expensive state for anything, but they are in the 10% most expensive for almost EVERYTHING. Since leaving, I am working 3/4 the time I was working there and my disposable income has more than doubled. (I am self-employed, so my job remained the same.)
> 
> It was no "one thing" that was so expensive there. But a combination of a bunch of little things made all the difference in the world.
> 
> Red Lion my friend, my advice to you is finish your time at Ft. Snelling, then hop on I-35 south and don't stop for anything but gas at least until you hit the Oklahoma state line! It is a WHOLE different and better world south of I-40, I-10 is even better, and south of I-10 (my new stomping ground) is God's Country!


I will be heading Montana/Idaho way once my Daughters are out of the house. My Brother intends to settle down in that area once he retires from the Air Force.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Hey, Redlion, my wife and I were thinking of moving to Sandpoint, Idaho back in the day. Is it still a nice place?


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Slippy said:


> U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
> 
> The US continues to rack up debt like no one's business and we rarely hear anything about it?!?!?
> 
> ...


 @Slippy my old friend, I think your a tad generous in your time table, but nevertheless, correct in that the debt is unsustainable. As we elect more AOC type people this will only expedite the process. When a reset happens, and it will, there are going to be a lot of AOC types looking for cover, literally. I look at it now as a race to see which domino falls first, any one of which, if not the first to fall, will force the economy to come crashing down around our ankles. The economy, along with EMP/grid attack, are my top two among my top 5, with civil unrest or war a close third.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Prepared One said:


> with civil unrest or war a close third.


I live in the triangle of the beast. It used to be just Chicago shooting itself into insanity, then Milwaukee decided to shoot its own blacks, and actually passed the Chi-Town records. Not to be outdone, now our Madison Police Chief, Mike Koval, had to deal with 50 shootings. Don't worry, he states that our rookie breed never hit anyone in those 50 attempts. Still, sooner or later someone going to get shot by accident.

Milwaukee got good at their own self-ethnic cleansing. Madison bangers are little slower at both math and Glocks, but Gaston Glock has a pistol that fired over 100,000 rounds, so the local blacks can easily catch up...


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

The Tourist said:


> Hey, Redlion, my wife and I were thinking of moving to Sandpoint, Idaho back in the day. Is it still a nice place?


I do not know my friend. I have spent some time in Idaho, but not enough to be familiar with it. Most of my time was on AT in the MN National Guard and training at Camp Guernsey.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

RedLion said:


> I do not know my friend. I have spent some time in Idaho, but not enough to be familiar with it. Most of my time was on AT in the MN National Guard and training at Camp Guernsey.


Well, if you go there, remember all of our good times. I do a great Jay Silverheels, and I have plenty of .45 ACP hardball.


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## Mosinator762x54r (Nov 4, 2015)

Denton said:


> The world's nations are dropping the dollar in order to get from underneath the control of D.C.


In 2016 the Chinese Remimbi/Yujuan(sp?) was added to the IMF reserve currency "basket".

While the dollar still is the dominating ingredient of the overall mix, there are new ingredients sharing space that once belonged to the dollar. And let's not forget that Quantitative Easing has made these dollars overall value worth less, so while the numbers may have risen in terms of claims being made in dollars (as well as Japanese yen), the devaluation of money printing is taking it's toll on what this money is worth.









Citation: IMF Data


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> So we're 21.9 trillion in debt, huh? Maybe it's time to let Pelosi win the presidency.
> 
> And it would be fun to hear O'Scario Cortex tell her, "_Wow, that's the biggest check I ever wrote..._"
> 
> But Denton's comment is the one that scares me. If foreign countries are dumping the dollar, that will directly effect the cost of oil. To my knowledge, no matter which country buys ******* oil, they must use American currency. If that changes and we must trade the imams with shiny beads, we might not get the same bang for our bucks.


The cost of oil? The cost of everything. As Strat explained in post #34, the value of the dollar is artificially elevated because it is the "petrodollar." That is now changing as nations are beginning to ditch the petrodollar and are starting to use their own currency. The U.S. and the House of Saud aren't as shiny and powerful as they once were, and while we have taken down a few governments that were moving away from the petrodollar (think Iraq and Libya), we can't go to war with all of the Middle East and Eurasia.

We sat back and smugly watched the suffering when currencies collapsed, blaming the people for allowing their governments to go socialistic. Meanwhile, the vast majority of our fellow countrymen have no idea what is about to fall on their heads or why it is going to happen.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Mosinator762x54r said:


> In 2016 the Chinese Remimbi/Yujuan(sp?) was added to the IMF reserve currency "basket".
> 
> While the dollar still is the dominating ingredient of the overall mix, there are new ingredients sharing space that once belonged to the dollar. And let's not forget that Quantitative Easing has made these dollars overall value worth less, so while the numbers may have risen in terms of claims being made in dollars (as well as Japanese yen), the devaluation of money printing is taking it's toll on what this money is worth.
> 
> ...


I heard a recent report that said that Russia's recent 3% GDP growth was a surprise and likely the product of getting away from the dollar as the reserve currency.


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## Mosinator762x54r (Nov 4, 2015)

RedLion said:


> I heard a recent report that said that Russia's recent 3% GDP growth was a surprise and likely the product of getting away from the dollar as the reserve currency.


I think Russia's growth is the result of the fact that they had their own currency crisis in 2016 and GDP really had nowhere to go but up. People look at Russia in fear and think they are some sort of mythical beast that is above the law when it comes to economics, politics, realistic military capability, and some people treat Putin like he can defy gravity (if they are afraid of him or in support of him.) Russia is doing the things that are in it's best interest. The BRICS and the new Russian alternative to the SWIFT currency transfer system are very much good indicators that the world is moving away from the dollar. But there remain localized economic road blocks to this happening over night. We shall see how it all goes down. Interesting conversation for sure.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Denton said:


> The cost of oil? The cost of everything.


Not good news for a guy who just retired. Fortunately, there is no oil in stones, unless you count the cargo price of Japanese ship fuel.

I thought about your response, Denton. And yes, there is oil in just about everything, including petro-chemicals. I also wonder about winter gasoline. My F-150 started to 'ping' last month. Now if I'm down about an 1/8th of a tank, I top off with premium. Since Costco uses a corn mix, the alcohol actually stops gas-line freeze--and that a value added idea here in Wisconsin.

There are government subsidies on lots of goods and services. Since oil is also needed by the military, my guess is that we have a small window of opportunity to get a handle on fuel. Sean Hannity trumpets that we now can pump more oil nationally than Saudi Arabia. I'd build those pipe lines a tad faster if I was Trump's oil czar.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> Not good news for a guy who just retired. Fortunately, there is no oil in stones, unless you count the cargo price of Japanese ship fuel.
> 
> I thought about your response, Denton. And yes, there is oil in just about everything, including petro-chemicals. I also wonder about winter gasoline. My F-150 started to 'ping' last month. Now if I'm down about an 1/8th of a tank, I top off with premium. Since Costco uses a corn mix, the alcohol actually stops gas-line freeze--and that a value added idea here in Wisconsin.
> 
> There are government subsidies on lots of goods and services. Since oil is also needed by the military, my guess is that we have a small window of opportunity to get a handle on fuel. Sean Hannity trumpets that we now can pump more oil nationally than Saudi Arabia. I'd build those pipe lines a tad faster if I was Trump's oil czar.


You're still missing the point. The dollar's value has been due to it was the only currency used in the trade of oil. That created a demand for the dollar. Because of the demand, the U.S. government was able to call the shots around the world and was able to sell its debt to other nations.

When the world ditches the dollar (the ditching has already started, by the way), there'll be no demand for all those dollars. You're myopic in thinking it's just oil that will spike in price. Everything will spike in price. Everything, because the dollar will be worth very little.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

T-Man 1066 said:


> There was a day and a time when having a college degree was worth something, because only a small group had it. When "everybody" has a college degree it becomes relatively worthless, since those with degrees are a dime a dozen. Our company got bought out by a 12000 employee corporation based out of England. They put this tremendous value on college degrees. We now have a bunch of them. One is same position as me, senior manufacturing engineer, which I probably really shouldn't be considered an engineer because all I have is a tool and die journeyman card and 27 years in the industry. I am top level program and process/machining support for our whole machine shop. He has no shop experience, never seen a CNC until 5 months ago, never ran as much as a drill press or a burr bench. He makes up power points, charts, and does "lean manufacturing exercises". I make chips and sell-able product. Last time I checked we have never sold a chart or document, but we sell the hell out of cylinders. When everybody wants to go to college and be a "leader" but nobody is doing actual work, we are in for a rough ride.
> 
> 3 ways to create wealth. Agriculture, mining, or manufacturing. EVERYTHING else, while necessary to a point, is not.


POST OF THE DAY!^^^^^^^^^^^^

Excellent points my good friend! The same thing is happening in the Construction Industry, everyone knows how to build a chart and a graph but we are running out of people who know how to build a building!

FUBAR


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

Slippy said:


> POST OF THE DAY!^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Excellent points my good friend! The same thing is happening in the Construction Industry, everyone knows how to build a chart and a graph but we are running out of people who know how to build a building!
> 
> FUBAR


I've had a few guys with degrees put the bags on in recent years, non of them lasted long. Yes you get wet, cold, sweaty, dirty and the occasional splinter, it's harder work then sitting on a cushy chair in the office working on cost reports and building gantt schedules.
It's been a constant struggle for quite a few years to find people with the aptitude to learn the trade and the wherewithal to do the work.

Edit:
What a lot of them don't seem to realize is me and my crews job is more important than theirs. For one I can and have done their jobs, and without the field personnel, they are nothing more than beans counters and artists.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I'm also retired, Denton. I no longer "purchase," I 'downsize.' Two pairs of jeans, two pairs of boots, more knives for sale than knives in my pocket. Two combat pistols. One jean jacket, one winter coat. I do have four or five pairs of WigWam socks, I went crazy.

We have a walk-in closet. I could get my entire life onto two shelves--with room.

This is why advertising is only concerned with people younger than 39 years of age.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Slippy said:


> Excellent point Mosinator,
> 
> I think that The UNFUNDED LIABILITY (GAAP) of over $122 Trillion is the number that will eventually take the most powerful government in the world to its knees.
> 
> ...


Pumpernickel please...


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## T-Man 1066 (Jan 3, 2016)

Slippy said:


> POST OF THE DAY!^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Excellent points my good friend! The same thing is happening in the Construction Industry, everyone knows how to build a chart and a graph but we are running out of people who know how to build a building!
> 
> FUBAR


I suspect every industry is feeling the same pain. I wish I had good answers for this. I can only force one person to learn something worthwhile. My 17 yr old son. He gets aggravated with me about things but one day he will look back and be thankful I took the time to teach him something worthwhile. Just like my dad and his dad before him did.


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## Mosinator762x54r (Nov 4, 2015)

Denton said:


> That created a demand for the dollar. Because of the demand, the U.S. government was able to call the shots around the world...


 Well the demand for the dollar and the only country to have fully functional double digit aircraft carrier battle groups. IMHO


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Mosinator762x54r said:


> Well the demand for the dollar and the only country to have fully functional double digit aircraft carrier battle groups. IMHO


That's why we were able to build those ships and call the shots.


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## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

In my 30 yr career, I can't tell you how many college graduates I have had to train. One of my best new engineer stories, The new engineer brought me drawing of the building with a new layout for efficiency. As I started moving things I realized we had building pillars coming through the middle of racks. I called the engineer up (he never even set foot in the plant) and told him the pillars were in the way. He called me back and told me he would have a new drawing in the morning, he forgot to turn on the pillars in the drawing. Naturally, since he was a University of Missouri Rolla graduate he got a nice bonus and pat on the back, I digress

My point is all of these companies complain about not being able to find competent employees. Yet they refuse to even consider hiring anyone over the age of 50.



T-Man 1066 said:


> There was a day and a time when having a college degree was worth something, because only a small group had it. When "everybody" has a college degree it becomes relatively worthless, since those with degrees are a dime a dozen. Our company got bought out by a 12000 employee corporation based out of England. They put this tremendous value on college degrees. We now have a bunch of them. One is same position as me, senior manufacturing engineer, which I probably really shouldn't be considered an engineer because all I have is a tool and die journeyman card and 27 years in the industry. I am top level program and process/machining support for our whole machine shop. He has no shop experience, never seen a CNC until 5 months ago, never ran as much as a drill press or a burr bench. He makes up power points, charts, and does "lean manufacturing exercises". I make chips and sell-able product. Last time I checked we have never sold a chart or document, but we sell the hell out of cylinders. When everybody wants to go to college and be a "leader" but nobody is doing actual work, we are in for a rough ride.
> 
> 3 ways to create wealth. Agriculture, mining, or manufacturing. EVERYTHING else, while necessary to a point, is not.


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

modfan said:


> My point is all of these companies complain about not being able to find competent employees. Yet they refuse to even consider hiring anyone over the age of 50.


You mean us folks with decades of real life experience, have had time to learn from our mistakes, have an opinion based off their experience, will stand their ground (within reason) when warranted, know how to prioritize workflow.


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## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

Yeah, that's us.



Lunatic Wrench said:


> You mean us folks with decades of real life experience, have had time to learn from our mistakes, have an opinion based off their experience, will stand their ground (within reason) when warranted, know how to prioritize workflow.


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## T-Man 1066 (Jan 3, 2016)

Lunatic Wrench said:


> You mean us folks with decades of real life experience, have had time to learn from our mistakes, have an opinion based off their experience, will stand their ground (within reason) when warranted, know how to prioritize workflow.


In our area the local community college has a "Fast Track" 6 week program to learn CNC. I have spent the last 1/4 century on CNC. 6 weeks only teaches you enough to be dangerous, make scrap, and crash alot. Usually taught by people not in the industry. Its a joke.

Experience doesn't carry the value it should. As long as its 20 years of good experience. Not one year 20 times over.


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

T-Man 1066 said:


> In our area the local community college has a "Fast Track" 6 week program to learn CNC. I have spent the last 1/4 century on CNC. 6 weeks only teaches you enough to be dangerous, make scrap, and crash alot. Usually taught by people not in the industry. Its a joke.
> 
> Experience doesn't carry the value it should. As long as its 20 years of good experience. Not one year 20 times over.


Oh come on now, you only need to be able to push the buttons to run a CNC :tango_face_wink:


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## T-Man 1066 (Jan 3, 2016)

That's what I always hear. Push green button. Check part "if operator isn't busy on their cell phone". Green gauge should go. Red should not. Otherwise yell for T-Man.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> So we're 21.9 trillion in debt, huh? Maybe it's time to let Pelosi win the presidency.
> 
> And it would be fun to hear O'Scario Cortex tell her, "_Wow, that's the biggest check I ever wrote..._"
> 
> But Denton's comment is the one that scares me. If foreign countries are dumping the dollar, that will directly effect the cost of oil. To my knowledge, no matter which country buys ******* oil, they must use American currency. If that changes and we must trade the imams with shiny beads, we might not get the same bang for our bucks.


Something about being besieged at our ports..........................


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Lunatic Wrench said:


> Oh come on now, you only need to be able to push the buttons to run a CNC :tango_face_wink:


I'm liking your black eye:vs_rocking_banana:


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Someone wrote they’ll come for the US citizens when they need the money? It was back on page one or two. Listen to the progressives lately and you will notice the billionaires are the Jews of the 1930’s today. NYT wrote an editorial this past week claiming government should prevent billionaires from existing. Kind of like Germany thought Jews shouldn’t isnt it? The rhetoric or hate towards the wealthy is getting ugly.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

*22 trillion and counting!*

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-tops-22-trillion-first-time-ever/2849978002/

Unbelievable.


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