# Israel needs to Forgive and Move On



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

A 93 year old Auschwitz guard will be going on trial soon for 300,000 counts of complicity to murder.

Most of you know I am pro -Israel... BUT I think when it comes to WWII war crimes... they are now scrapping the bottom of the barrel to find people


Time to issue a general pardon/forgiveness


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Memories of the gas chambers die hard. I still hate Hanoi Jane.


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## Murphy (Oct 9, 2014)

Hang'em high


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

paraquack said:


> Memories of the gas chambers die hard. I still hate Hanoi Jane.


I had to read your sentence twice. Seeing the words "Hanoi Jane" and "gas chamber" in the same sentence makes me feel all warm inside. Then I realized what you were saying.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I see no reason to forgive what was done by the Nazis when there are so many people in the world who are still anti-Semitic. Israel needs to be vigilant to survive. When that is no longer the case and they are allowed to live in peace will be the time for forgiveness, not before.


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

I disagree Maine-Marine. As long as those monsters draw breath, they are still in need of punishment.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Anyone left is about to face judgement anyway, seems silly to pursue at this point.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Never forget.


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

Denton said:


> Never forget.


Certain sins are simply not forgivable.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

forgive*, but never forget.

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
[Romans 12:19]


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

I do not advocate forgiving or forgetting, but at some point vengeance becomes more about the vengeful than any crime committed no matter how heinous.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

It's easy to suggest someone else forgive when you weren't the one who was wronged. We have WWII vets here in this country who aren't ready to forgive. You want to tell one of them to forgive? I don't. If I say anything it will be to respect what they went through.


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## TG (Jul 28, 2014)

There is a difference between vengeance and justice. This is justice.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

I say hunt them down and execute them. no mercy for nazi. if found guilty, give them the maximum penalty. no statute of limitation for war crimes.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

jimb1972 said:


> I do not advocate forgiving or forgetting, but at some point vengeance becomes more about the vengeful than any crime committed no matter how heinous.


Is the crime even over? Israel is surrounded by enemies who have vowed to exterminate them. The message they need to send is not forgiveness.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Forgive NAZI criminals for genocide? Never. Ever.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

I don't suggest they publically announce forgiving anyone, but to spend time and money to pursue 'violators' of human rights from 70 years ago when, as mentioned above, they have people seeking their torture and demise at all times currently... well, it seems the time and energy could be spent more efficiently and effectively for the good of their people.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Years ago the UN voted unanimously of no statute of limitations on genocide.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> A 93 year old Auschwitz guard will be going on trial soon for 300,000 counts of complicity to murder.
> 
> Most of you know I am pro -Israel... BUT I think when it comes to WWII war crimes... they are now scrapping the bottom of the barrel to find people
> 
> Time to issue a general pardon/forgiveness


Far as I'm concerned he can dig his own grave before the luger round to the back of the head. No forgiveness, no mercy, and may he burn in hell.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Diver said:


> Is the crime even over? Israel is surrounded by enemies who have vowed to exterminate them. The message they need to send is not forgiveness.


Killing surviving geriatric Nazis does NOTHING to dissuade their present enemies.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Diver said:


> Is the crime even over? Israel is surrounded by enemies who have vowed to exterminate them. The message they need to send is not forgiveness.


Yes, the crime is over. I doubt if that 93 year old has killed any Jews in the last 70 years. Kill those currently trying to kill you, ignore those involved or complicit to crimes the better part of a century ago. Time has gotten nearly all the Nazi's involved that escaped punishment so many years ago, any remaining will be in God's hands in such a short time that the resources to seek them would be better used elsewhere.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

well there's a whole lot of people currently wandering the earth who took part in genocidal movements from even recent decades, who can be pointed out in the streets by the people they once tortured and survivors of their slaughter, and no one is doing a thing about them (Liberia comes to mind).

[edit: typo]


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

jimb1972 said:


> Yes, the crime is over. I doubt if that 93 year old has killed any Jews in the last 70 years. Kill those currently trying to kill you, ignore those involved or complicit to crimes the better part of a century ago. Time has gotten nearly all the Nazi's involved that escaped punishment so many years ago, any remaining will be in God's hands in such a short time that the resources to seek them would be better used elsewhere.


This ^


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## OctopusPrime (Dec 2, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> A 93 year old Auschwitz guard will be going on trial soon for 300,000 counts of complicity to murder.
> 
> Most of you know I am pro -Israel... BUT I think when it comes to WWII war crimes... they are now scrapping the bottom of the barrel to find people
> 
> Time to issue a general pardon/forgiveness


They should inject his eyes with black dye and do other testing on him to see why he is inferior, and then they should send him to the gas chamber once they have gotten what they want from him. If he has an especially nice skull the doctor doing experiments on him could use it as a pen holder...

what is wrong with you?


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## OctopusPrime (Dec 2, 2014)

if he wants to live he needs to write me an essay of why he was bad and then I will forgive him.. ridiculous


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> A 93 year old Auschwitz guard will be going on trial soon for 300,000 counts of complicity to murder.


He was a freakin' guard. You don't even know if he was a Nazi. For those who may not be aware, not all German soldiers were believers in the Nazi movement. If Obama were to breathe life back in to the National Socialist movement (That's what Nazi Means), and seized complete control of the US military under that banner, that does not make all of our soldiers Nazis.

A prison guard is pretty far down the totem pole of rank and importance. Seems petty at this point


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> It's easy to suggest someone else forgive when you weren't the one who was wronged. We have WWII vets here in this country who aren't ready to forgive. You want to tell one of them to forgive? I don't. If I say anything it will be to respect what they went through.


Yes I would indeed tell a WWII vet to forgive...

Hatred and unforgiveness are bitter bitter bitter ....

I never knew a WWII vet that held anger towards germans or japanese...


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

Jews don't read the book of Romans.
They have over 6 million reasons to remember.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Rob Roy said:


> Killing surviving geriatric Nazis does NOTHING to dissuade their present enemies.


it will certainly do something. it will send a message that war criminals will not be tolerated, no matter how old they are. See, this is why our country is going down the drain. we put in the books the punishments for crimes, but when the time comes, we roll over and give the criminal a pardon or light sentences. if the punishment is life sentence, lock him up forever. if the punishment is death, I expect the criminal to be executed. if we do otherwise, we lose our credibility.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> it will certainly do something. it will send a message that war criminals will not be tolerated, no matter how old they are. See, this is why our country is going down the drain. we put in the books the punishments for crimes, but when the time comes, we roll over and give the criminal a pardon or light sentences. if the punishment is life sentence, lock him up forever. if the punishment is death, I expect the criminal to be executed. if we do otherwise, we lose our credibility.


This country has a thing called PARDONS... both Presidents and governors can do it....does that makes us weak.....


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

mhans827 said:


> it will certainly do something. it will send a message that war criminals will not be tolerated, no matter how old they are. See, this is why our country is going down the drain. we put in the books the punishments for crimes, but when the time comes, we roll over and give the criminal a pardon or light sentences. if the punishment is life sentence, lock him up forever. if the punishment is death, I expect the criminal to be executed. if we do otherwise, we lose our credibility.


Bullshit, there are people guilty of war crimes in Serbia still out walking around, Africa, and many other more recent places. Not only are all the perpetrators of the crimes of WWII nearly all dead, there are very few of the victims left either. We concentrate on the distant past and ignore the recent and present. There is genocide going on right now in Africa and the Middle East and it goes unnoticed.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Showing Mercy does not make a person weak


Old Testament - God talking

Hosea 6:6 
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

A disagreement about killing the elderly is not why this country is suffering.

Also, this has nothing to do with our country's laws.

This is a discussion on whether Israel is spending their time wisely or not.

Israel is hunting violators of humanity and bringing them to "justice". America as a country could care less at this point. Same for Great Britain and most of the world. The only time anyone here gives a thought to whether there are still any surviving Nazis is most likely in the rare instance when a conversation like this pops up.

[edit: added quotation marks for flavor]


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

OctopusPrime said:


> They should inject his eyes with black dye and do other testing on him to see why he is inferior, and then they should send him to the gas chamber once they have gotten what they want from him. If he has an especially nice skull the doctor doing experiments on him could use it as a pen holder...
> 
> what is wrong with you?


what is wrong with you


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## Murphy (Oct 9, 2014)

http://rt.com/news/188088-nazi-death-camp-guard/

"Over the years I have heard the cries of the dead in my dreams. I will never be free of them. The guilt will never leave me. I can only plead for forgiveness and pray for atonement," Groening said.

Twenty Auschwitz survivors and their families are co-plaintiffs in a lawsuit against Groening. Many of the co-plaintiffs are among the last survivors of Auschwitz, according to the NY Daily News.

An Allied tribunal cleared Groening of war crimes in 1948.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

He has cleared of war crimes in 1948, by An Allied tribunal....


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

There is no statute of limitation for murder. It's not vengeance, it's called JUSTICE. When the Nazi can bring back those dead people back then people should forget about it.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

To all those who feel the Israelis should be merciful and not bother with this poor man. How many poor old Jews asked for mercy from him, apparently 300,000.
I'm glad you can forgive. I hope that you will remember to be so forgiving should you ever be in the same position. I really, really doubt that I could be so forgiving. 
I agree that tracking these animals down will send a message.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I was a young, hard soldier when I toured Dachau. I walked out of that camp with a broken heart and was crying like a baby.

They had no mercy for the elderly, the infirmed, the pregnant or the children. They had no mercy. 

Let justice be the mercy given him. Don't lecture the remnant about mercy.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

They still have a price to pay for their crimes. What that price is a jury should decide . Hiding for a life time does not meant no quilt .


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> They still have a price to pay for their crimes. What that price is a jury should decide . Hiding for a life time does not meant no quilt .


he was not hiding...did you read the article


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## Coolwater (Nov 25, 2014)

Just have to stop here and comment when not even finished reading these posts. Yes RobRoy, "Vengeance is mine", saith the Lord. Also, when I first saw the movie, barbarella, I was like, who is she, she's pretty. I read up about her, of course, henry fonda's daughter; kept reading and learned what she did to our men, prisoners of war, who had slipped her tiny pieces of paper with their info on them, only for her to turn those over to the evil guards. Then I saw she was in a movie coming on years ago, I think, barefoot in the park, and she made me sick -- did not even want to see her. Also, and sorry so disoriented right now, always in a hurry -- when Israel falls, we all fall; Revelations.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Coolwater said:


> - when Israel falls, we all fall; Revelations.


is that a new book in the bible????


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

The war crimes tribunal let him go in 1948, He is accused of helping to operate the camp not actually killing anyone. He was a member of the SS, so I will not excuse his actions as those of a simple German soldier but after 70 years I doubt He is the same man who worked in an office at the death camp. Time has already claimed the worst of the Nazi's who escaped prosecution and now the hunters are grasping at straws to validate their continued existence.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

You're correct. Apparently he didn't have to hide because he felt he got away with murder. Apparently the Germans decided after all these years to pursue him. I don't see how that lessens his guilt or proves his innocence. By his own admission, he is guilty. 

I doubt that "when Israel falls, we all fall" is a revelation to most of us.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Rob Roy said:


> Killing surviving geriatric Nazis does NOTHING to dissuade their present enemies.


You all realize that here in the USofA there is no statute of limitations on murder. Is what the Nazi's did any different than Murder?


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Who, involved in this debate, has actually read the story in question?



*raises hand*


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

SARGE7402 said:


> You all realize that here in the USofA there is no statute of limitations on murder. Is what the Nazi's did any different than Murder?


We aren't discussing US law.

Explain how that guard murdered anyone


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

jimb1972 said:


> Yes, the crime is over. I doubt if that 93 year old has killed any Jews in the last 70 years. Kill those currently trying to kill you, ignore those involved or complicit to crimes the better part of a century ago. Time has gotten nearly all the Nazi's involved that escaped punishment so many years ago, any remaining will be in God's hands in such a short time that the resources to seek them would be better used elsewhere.


What message does that send to the Palestinian terrorists? The Jews have been facing non-stop threats to their existence. They are still faced with the same threat from a slightly different skin tone.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> Yes I would indeed tell a WWII vet to forgive...
> 
> Hatred and unforgiveness are bitter bitter bitter ....
> 
> I never knew a WWII vet that held anger towards germans or japanese...


You haven't met my family. 

During WWII if the Germans caught an allied soldier in possession of a Luger, they would execute him on the spot. My uncle was a ranger who went through the whole war in Europe. He carried a Luger the rest of his life. Trust me when I tell you that telling him he ought to forgive would have been a serious mistake.

My father is the last of the WWII generation left alive in my family. Try suggesting to him that he buy a German car. LOL


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Diver said:


> What message does that send to the Palestinian terrorists? The Jews have been facing non-stop threats to their existence. They are still faced with the same threat from a slightly different skin tone.


Are you aware that the Palestinian propagandists claim that Israel's desire to wipe out all living Nazis is due to the fact that they don't want the "truth" to be told; that there was no Holocaust. Is that mind-blowingly ridiculous? ABOSULTELY. But still they claim it. So what message does it send to the Palestinians? Any message they decide they want to receive. 
They don't care what Israel does to Nazis... they just want Jews dead.

This is the point- don't concern yourself with a Nazi prison guard from 70 years ago when you have people next door literally praying to YOUR God that you be destroyed forever and ever.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Diver said:


> What message does that send to the Palestinian terrorists? The Jews have been facing non-stop threats to their existence. They are still faced with the same threat from a slightly different skin tone.


Uhm, I guess the message would be "We are through chasing the demons of our past and will now concentrate on the demons of our present"


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Rob Roy said:


> Are you aware that the Palestinian propagandists claim that Israel's desire to wipe out all living Nazis is due to the fact that they don't want the "truth" to be told; that there was no Holocaust. Is that mind-blowingly ridiculous? ABOSULTELY. But still they claim it. So what message does it send to the Palestinians? Any message they decide they want to receive.
> They don't care what Israel does to Nazis... they just want Jews dead.
> 
> This is the point- don't concern yourself with a Nazi prison guard from 70 years ago when you have people next door literally praying to YOUR God that you be destroyed forever and ever.


Sorry. I don't think Israel can afford to say "You killed 300,000 Jews but it's okay because now you're old." I would expect them to go after a 93 year old Palestinian terrorist and I don't think a Nazi should get a break for old age. I think we would do well to follow the example of Israel in dealing with those who would do us harm.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Rob Roy said:


> Who, involved in this debate, has actually read the story in question?
> 
> *raises hand*


*raises hand*


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Diver said:


> Sorry. I don't think Israel can afford to say "You killed 300,000 Jews but it's okay because now you're old." I would expect them to go after a 93 year old Palestinian terrorist and I don't think a Nazi should get a break for old age. I think we would do well to follow the example of Israel in dealing with those who would do us harm.


My point is that, much like the people in this debate, 'They're not listening'.

They are receiving no message.

Israel is sending NO ONE any message other than the geriatric Nazi guard or any of his crusty old friends.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Rob Roy said:


> My point is that, much like the people in this debate, 'They're not listening'.
> 
> They are receiving no message.
> 
> Israel is sending NO ONE any message other than the geriatric Nazi guard or any of his crusty old friends.


I disagree. They are sending a message, but whether anyone is receiving is another matter. BTW: I am getting the message the Israelis are sending. Given a choice between having to kill those who would kill us, or dying, we'll kill those who would kill us. Seems simple.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Diver said:


> I disagree. They are sending a message, but whether anyone is receiving is another matter. BTW: I am getting the message the Israelis are sending. Given a choice between being having to kill those who would kill us, or dying, we'll kill those who would kill us. Seems simple.


Yea? Is that the message they were sending at the time?

Have you considered the legality of it? They were not a nation at the time of the offense, therefore "their" citizens could not have been harmed. The equivalent of the United Nations of the time found this guard "not guilty". What right does Israel have to act?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Rob Roy said:


> Yea? Is that the message they were sending at the time?
> 
> Have you considered the legality of it? They were not a nation at the time of the offense, therefore "their" citizens could not have been harmed. The equivalent of the United Nations of the time found this guard "not guilty". What right does Israel have to act?


What right does any nation have to act against genocide? Israel is not supported or protected by the UN. There is no reason for them to respect its decisions.

Maybe that is a deal the UN should consider. Guarantee Israel's safety in return for ceasing pursuit of Nazis. Do you think the UN is ready to do that?


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

I honestly don't care what the UN thinks about it either way. I'm not really a fan of the current UN.
I respect your right to disagree, and everyone else's here.

Have you read the article in question?


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

Until you have actually sat and spoken with a survivor, of auswitch of all places, with a tattoo on their arm, you won't ever understand.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Piratesailor said:


> Until you have actually sat and spoken with a survivor, of auswitch of all places, with a tattoo on their arm, you won't ever understand.


Have you read the article in question?


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Rob Roy said:


> Yea? Is that the message they were sending at the time?
> 
> Have you considered the legality of it? They were not a nation at the time of the offense, therefore "their" citizens could not have been harmed. The equivalent of the United Nations of the time found this guard "not guilty". What right does Israel have to act?


In the 60's, 70's , and 80's the Israeli's and the Simon Weisenthal center caught and prosecuted some truly nasty bits of humanity that escaped prosecution after WWII, but that time is passed. I do not question their right to go after the leaders and individuals personally responsible for the murders of millions, but this case does not seem to be one of those. It may be time to bury the ghosts and concentrate on the living.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Rob Roy said:


> Have you read the article in question?


If you are talking about the link in post 35, there isn't one in post #1, then yes I have read it. Anyone who could serve as an SS guard in a concentration camp for 2 1/2 years qualifies as one of the most despicable individuals to have ever lived.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

diver said:


> if you are talking about the link in post 35, there isn't one in post #1, then yes i have read it.


thank you!


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Regardless of the conflict, Israel has always extended an olive branch under the condition that it is allowed to exist and be respected as a sovereign state.






Should the Nazi's have wanted that olive branch all they had to do was accept it - but they chose to push back and make it a problem.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Hold on. First of all, the Nazis were garbage and disgusting monsters at best. They are filth of the earth and their memory is better off dissolved.

BUT, the Nazis did not have an option of any olive branch. Israel was not a nation, recognized by anybody at the time. It was the Holocaust that bought them (the Jews) back their land and acknowledgement among nations. The Nazis were killing Jews. Jews in Germany, Jews in Poland, Jews in Russia. The Nazis were not killing Israelites, as far as they were concerned. They did not march into Jerusalem to take the land like the Muslims and Templars centuries before them.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. I know you are a smart man; I have read your comments for some time. I'm going to assume I am misreading these now. Let's just make sure we're all reading from the same history books.

Side notes:
I have seen that 5 min fact vid before. I love it. I have used it to defend Israel in previous conversations.

[edit: side note]


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> You haven't met my family.
> 
> During WWII if the Germans caught an allied soldier in possession of a Luger, they would execute him on the spot. My uncle was a ranger who went through the whole war in Europe. He carried a Luger the rest of his life. Trust me when I tell you that telling him he ought to forgive would have been a serious mistake.
> 
> My father is the last of the WWII generation left alive in my family. Try suggesting to him that he buy a German car. LOL


I wonder if that hate helps a person sleep at night.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> I wonder if that hate helps a person sleep at night.


Well, I am proud of what my family did in WWII. If they ever had problems sleeping at night I would count that as part of the price they paid for our freedom.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

I agree, kill him, then forgive and move on


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> I wonder if that hate helps a person sleep at night.


Let's agree that we disagree and leave it be.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> This country has a thing called PARDONS... both Presidents and governors can do it....does that makes us weak.....


 pardoning war criminals who committed genocide.... yes that would make us absolutely weak. that would make us look like a dog that is all bark and no bite.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Rob Roy said:


> Have you read the article in question?


Here. Read away.

An SS Officer Remembers: The Bookkeeper from Auschwitz - SPIEGEL ONLINE

He was a proud Nazi, believed in Hitler, viewed the slaughter of the "pig merchants" as Germany's duty to destroy "Global Judaism."

He was a part of Auschwitz. A willing and proud Nazi, performing his part in accounting for the money taken from the Jews as well as being a guard.

A friend's mother was one of the youngest to get out of that camp alive. Her entire family didn't make it, though. Someone was at the rail when their train car arrived. Someone took their belongings and their money. Was this the man? If not, one like him did. He is as guilty as the rest of them.

He deserves his appearance in court. He earned his appearance. Those who were slaughtered did not earn their own deaths.


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## keith9365 (Apr 23, 2014)

So if I understand this thread correctly, no matter how heinous your crime is, if you can hide from prosecution long enough you should just get a pass? If someone raped and killed your daughter and went into hiding for 20-30-40 years you would be ok with giving them a pass? I think not.


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## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

Never forgive and hang-em all...


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

He was raised to be a Nazi from the time he was a small child and his mother died. He bears some guilt as all the German's who participated in the Nazi party do, but I think the time and money could be better spent than pursuing a faded memory of evil.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

keith9365 said:


> So if I understand this thread correctly, no matter how heinous your crime is, if you can hide from prosecution long enough you should just get a pass? If someone raped and killed your daughter and went into hiding for 20-30-40 years you would be ok with giving them a pass? I think not.


He was not hiding and if he had not spoken up about the evil that occurred to a holocaust denier 30 years ago and told about what went on to the BBC we would not be hearing about him now.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Piratesailor said:


> Until you have actually sat and spoken with a survivor, of auswitch of all places, with a tattoo on their arm, you won't ever understand.


I always hate the YOU WERE NOT THERE card...YOU WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND....

Were you there???

so I guess I will never understand anything I have not been involved in...


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

paraquack said:


> Let's agree that we disagree and leave it be.


I have a fair amount of respect for you... but I dislike the lets agree to disagree thingee..

NO - I am not going to agree to disagree...

My comment was just that...a comment.. I think it is time to forgive and move on... it has been 70 years

forgiveness is bigger then justice or revenge.. just my feeling


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

keith9365 said:


> So if I understand this thread correctly, no matter how heinous your crime is, if you can hide from prosecution long enough you should just get a pass? If someone raped and killed your daughter and went into hiding for 20-30-40 years you would be ok with giving them a pass? I think not.


If you bothered to read the article past the first 2 paragraphs YOU would know he was not hiding... GO READ THE ARTICLE and stop being FECKLESS


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Some of the replies here demonstrate the issue with many americans... they form opinions and take action or make comments on them without learning what is really go on...

just like the Ferguson rioters... 

Fact - This guy was not in hiding
Fact - He already faced a judgment and was found not guilty

If we strictly went by American law.... he would not have to face double jeopardy! We are not.

If you want to say they guy should face another trial..wonderful...but do not say he should hang before the trial and stop saying he was hiding... the first is unamerican the second is a lie


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> A 93 year old Auschwitz guard will be going on trial soon for 300,000 counts of complicity to murder.
> 
> Most of you know I am pro -Israel... BUT I think when it comes to WWII war crimes... they are now scrapping the bottom of the barrel to find people
> 
> Time to issue a general pardon/forgiveness


God is in the pardoning business...mass murderers still have to answer to earthly justice. Get a grip.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

paraquack said:


> Memories of the gas chambers die hard. I still hate Hanoi Jane.


She is now supposedly a Born Again Christian..she has repented and asked forgiveness on several occasions from the Viet Nam Vets. Why cant yall cut her some slack?


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Should Israel forgive the past, well if they do then they should forget the past, so we repeat our mistakes made through history....

If the accused is really a war criminal, not just a guard, then he deserves what's coming, same as any other genocidal prick.... 

May he rest in hell if guilty of that crime!!!!


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

bigwheel said:


> She is now supposedly a Born Again Christian..she has repented and asked forgiveness on several occasions from the Viet Nam Vets. Why cant yall cut her some slack?


Nothing a short drop and a sudden stop won't fix


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Well find a judge and jury which can convict her and give her the drop. Leave out the Grand Jury thing since liberals dont like that nowadays. Forgiveness is not an emotion but rather a commandment and an "ACTION" we forgive folks by acting as if we forgive them. For those who can't forgive Hanoi Jane..God can't forgive them for all the dirty rotten stuff they have done. Its a guaranteed Spiritual blockage.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> Some of the replies here demonstrate the issue with many americans... they form opinions and take action or make comments on them without learning what is really go on...
> 
> just like the Ferguson rioters...
> 
> ...


THIS POST IS THE REASON THERE IS SO MUCH WRONG WITH AMERICA

For the following reasons: 
You EXPECT others to have the exact same thinking as you

You EXPECT everyone to agree and not have their own opinion

You share a link, with a opinion on Nazi war criminals and how Israel should forgive and EXPECT all here to read the article, when the article wasn't in question, your views and opinions were not agreed upon...

You EXPECT everyone to buy into "this is what's wrong with America" when its statements like that is what's wrong with America....

Note: there is a lot wrong everywhere in the world, but the USA has expect all syndrome, its generational... It shows on USA international politics, international policies, and even down to the pawn level...

Take offence how you like, I'm calling it as I see it, oh Ferguson is a crim got shot by cops, we expect justice bs


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

As far as I know only cops can be subjected to double jeopardy. Like is fixing to happen to Officer Wilson and the guy who got the carotid restriction on the cigarette man. It wasn't a choke hold. Yall should quit watching so much CNN and PMSNBC.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

jimb1972 said:


> Bullshit, there are people guilty of war crimes in Serbia still out walking around, Africa, and many other more recent places. Not only are all the perpetrators of the crimes of WWII nearly all dead, there are very few of the victims left either. We concentrate on the distant past and ignore the recent and present. There is genocide going on right now in Africa and the Middle East and it goes unnoticed.


the way you put things together, I feel like you think I got something to do with the ones that are still walking around. I guarantee you, If I had anything to do with it, it would be for the execution of war criminals. I would not let anyone get away if it was up to me. I understand that there maybe other war criminals that are walking around free, I get that. All I'm saying is this should not happen. If you commit genocide or participate in it, you should die a very painful death.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

pheniox17 said:


> You EXPECT others to have the exact same thinking as you
> 
> You EXPECT everyone to agree and not have their own opinion


If you bothered to read what I wrote -I am guessing you either did not read it or FAILED to grasp the meaning of it.... My problem was that people DID NOT READ the article and just gave a gut reaction answer or comment.

I expect others to at least give a well reasoned argument and defend their stance.... not twist what was said and then argue against a twisted version of a statement that was not even made.... LIKE YOU JUST DID... GHEESH!!!!!


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

After multiple thread locks (the reason behind which I now understand), I have added my first person the the ignore list. /sigh

I very much try to not utilize that feature on web forums. However, sometimes you find someone who's only contributions to the forum seem to be for the sake of chaos or are the result of "willfully diminished Temporal and Parietal Lobe utilization" as my father used to say. When this happens, I feel I have no choice but to break down and hit "the button".

Maybe my forum browsing will be more pleasant now.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

bigwheel said:


> She is now supposedly a Born Again Christian..she has repented and asked forgiveness on several occasions from the Viet Nam Vets. Why cant yall cut her some slack?


Talk is real cheap! Is she really sorry or is she bowing to pressure of the times? I feel she is strictly trying to cover her butt and make herself look all warm and fuzzy.
MHO, only mine and does not necessarily reflect the mindset of the rest of the forum members.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

I am not saying what Israel should or should not do, that's their business, but is everyone aware of what the Japanese did to the Chinese people during the same war? Strange how some things are remembered, and some are forgotten.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> I am not saying what Israel should or should not do, that's their business, but is everyone aware of what the Japanese did to the Chinese people during the same war? Strange how some things are remembered, and some are forgotten.


good point


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> I am not saying what Israel should or should not do, that's their business, but is everyone aware of what the Japanese did to the Chinese people during the same war? Strange how some things are remembered, and some are forgotten.


Yes, but we don't seem to have a left over Japanese war criminal to discuss at the moment.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> I am not saying what Israel should or should not do, that's their business, but is everyone aware of what the Japanese did to the Chinese people during the same war? Strange how some things are remembered, and some are forgotten.


Yes, but we don't seem to have a left over Japanese war criminal to discuss at the moment.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

paraquack said:


> Talk is real cheap! Is she really sorry or is she bowing to pressure of the times? I feel she is strictly trying to cover her butt and make herself look all warm and fuzzy.
> MHO, only mine and does not necessarily reflect the mindset of the rest of the forum members.


Not sure what is going on in her head. She seems to be unapologetic about going to N. Vietnam in an an effort to try to stop the war but regrets posing on the anti-aircraft gun. She seems to have some confused views on Christianity but that dont stop her from being a Christian. The Gospel of Christ can stand a lot of abuse and still be fully functional.

ABOUT MY FAITH | Jane Fonda

Jane Fonda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> Not sure what is going on in her head. She seems to be unapologetic about going to N. Vietnam in an an effort to try to stop the war but regrets posing on the anti-aircraft gun. She seems to have some confused views on Christianity but that dont stop her from being a Christian. The Gospel of Christ can stand a lot of abuse and still be fully functional.
> 
> ABOUT MY FAITH | Jane Fonda
> 
> Jane Fonda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I went and read her FAITH... it amazes me that educated people can think and say some of the things they think and say...

her statement/agreement with "experiencing the divine was more important than mere belief in the divine." SPEAKS LOUDLY


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Highly muddled theology..lol.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I have read extensively of the Final Solution. From both sides. Even the Nazi commandant of Treblinka finally understood the depths of his crimes before he was executed.
I would suggest that anyone who is interested enough to argue that any Nazi should be forgiven should, perhaps, read two of the best books on the subject. Both are commonly found in a public library, and both are available used at Amazon.com (I just checked).

"The Incomparable Crime: Mass Extermination In The Twentieth Century" by Roger Manvell, 1967.

"Into That Darkness: An Examination Of Conscience" by Gitta Sereny, 1983. This book is based on 70 hours of interviews with Franz Stangl, commandant of Treblinka (the largest of the extermination camps).

Also recommended is "Justice At Nuremberg" by Robert E. Conot, 1993.

Read at least one of these, and then maybe the words "forgive" and "forget" may take on a different meaning.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> good point


Has nothing to do with the OP's topic. Did we not drop 2 atomic bombs on Japan which again is not on topic, but we did end up kicking their butt. As far as german war criminals go there is no time limit on those whom kill. I'm just surprised Israel didn't just kill him and say nothing, problem solved! Now Israel can move on to the next german war criminal. ::clapping::


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Does it every say this guy was a Nazi...??

The term keeps getting tossed out like ALL GERMANS were Nazis..they were not!


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> Does it every say this guy was a Nazi...??
> 
> The term keeps getting tossed out like ALL GERMANS were Nazis..they were not!


He was a member of the SS. All members of the SS were required to belong to the Nazi party.


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## jeep123 (Nov 6, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> I always hate the YOU WERE NOT THERE card...YOU WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND....
> Were you there???
> so I guess I will never understand anything I have not been involved in...


Especially so, in this case. When the evidence speaks a completely different story than the survivors (victim or nazi), I can't abide "you weren't there". If we're going to execute war criminals, fine. But why make up death numbers (or methods) to pad the list of crimes? It doesn't make sense.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> Does it every say this guy was a Nazi...??
> 
> The term keeps getting tossed out like ALL GERMANS were Nazis..they were not!


He was a Nazi all right, raised in the movement from the age of 4, sent to all the camps to indoctrinate the youth. He also never committed any war crimes not involving book keeping, and testified against many who did. He was a cog in the machine like many others. He attempted to get transferred when He realized what was happening and eventually did, even though guards had a pretty cushy hazard free life at the camps. He was found not guilty of war crimes in 48, and while he is not innocent it is kind of hard to determine his level of complicity 70 years later


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Let's say your significant family member was abducted by a group of individuals who proceeded to rape misuse and incinerate said victim while still alive. Please provide definitive guideline as to what time frame to the day the forgiveness and move on would kick in for you. Then realize what you are suggesting is that an uninvolved individual on another continent should be able to observe from a far and stamp timely approval on their forgiveness. And you the directly affected party are supposed to accept this.

You have no business to even form an opinion. Piss off.


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## OctopusPrime (Dec 2, 2014)

I am speechless and have been for a long time about your thread....this is the most infuriating thing I have ever read in a long time..and the most naïve..i am dumbfounded. But on the flip side I am happy to see everyone here still has their senses. you should take a long rest and really think about what you have said here...I can forgive stupidity not a goose steeping moron who likes to torture and kill jews.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> He was a member of the SS. All members of the SS were required to belong to the Nazi party.


This ^^. Basic history lesson. The SS were all Nazis and were tasked with the most despicable acts of the Nazi regime. The SS were the most loyal and trusted members of the Nazi regime.

If you want to make a argument that a mass murderer should be ignored due to old age is one thing. Arguing that he is not a mass murderer would be false.

What you are arguing is that we should place a statute of limitations on mass murder. Do you really want to do that?


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

He knew what he was involved with. Yall can make all the excuses for him you want. He was a cog in the genocide machine. A loyal member of the SS. Whats next, pardons and forgiveness for the jihadis? No pity from me.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

We seem to have a lot of nazi sympathizers with maybe good reason to be against what you did in war catching up to you.....but this was not Roman polanski feeling up some slut, these were atrocities like they will be prosecuting down the line of the current wars
I can't be against hunting them if people have the money and time. 
Just gaurds? No. They were in it too. Mean, vile and cruel. Who cares what their victims do to em?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

oddapple said:


> We seem to have a lot of nazi sympathizers with maybe good reason to be against what you did in war catching up to you.....but this was not Roman polanski feeling up some slut, these were atrocities like they will be prosecuting down the line of the current wars
> I can't be against hunting them if people have the money and time.
> Just gaurds? No. They were in it too. Mean, vile and cruel. Who cares what their victims do to em?


I suspect it is less about Nazi sympathy than just not knowing history, not to mention US law, which has been argued here.

Under US law if you are complicit in a crime and someone is murdered during that crime, you are guilty of murder. Murder has no statute of limitations.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Diver said:


> I suspect it is less about Nazi sympathy than just not knowing history.......


I agree. I am a military history buff, especially WWII, but many others are not. 
I don't think anyone on this board is a Nazi sympathizer. At least, I hope not.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I agree. I am a military history buff, especially WWII, but many others are not.
> I don't think anyone on this board is a Nazi sympathizer. At least, I hope not.


There are a few on my Ignore list I wonder about.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

I don't believe I've read any statements by anyone that I would believe to be sympathetic to the Nazis. I have ready many statements where people have been trying to sweep opinions into a pile and label those people. 

Most people seem to be arguing with emotion and forgetting the actual debate. That included me until a day or two ago when I took a time-out. 

Wherever this conversation is going, it started with a question of whether Israel is spending energy wisely for something that happened so long ago, when there are bigger fish to fry now. 

Continue the debate, but quit arguing like liberals with name-calling and automatic assumptions that your opposition is somehow F'd in the head and everything is so cut-and-dry simple; they're not and it's not.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

But it is Israel who is spending money and energy. Whether we believe it is wise or not does not matter. They are entitled to do this if they wish.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Rob Roy said:


> I don't believe I've read any statements by anyone that I would believe to be sympathetic to the Nazis. I have ready many statements where people have been trying to sweep opinions into a pile and label those people.
> 
> Most people seem to be arguing with emotion and forgetting the actual debate. That included me until a day or two ago when I took a time-out.
> 
> ...


Are you responding to me? If so that's cute because in other places on this forum I am the one being accused of being a liberal, and those are the nice posts.

As far as I am concerned there is nothing more important for any government to do than protect the safety of its citizens from murderers, especially the tracking down and bringing to justice of mass murderers. Perhaps if governments concentrated on that sort of thing instead of all the other things they do we would be living in a more pleasant world.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Diver said:


> Are you responding to me?


No, Diver. I was not
You've actually been courteous while stating your case. I applaud that. I was making a blanket statement to the entire congressional senate here.

I do agree with you that "there is nothing more important for any government to do than protect the safety of its citizens from murderers".

I would only argue 2 points:

A- This Nazi guard is not a threat to your citizens.

B- Israel was not a nation at the time, so he was never a threat to your citizens.

If you guys really want to use history, that fact would be an important part of this debate.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Rob Roy said:


> No, Diver. I was not
> You've actually been courteous while stating your case. I applaud that. I was making a blanket statement to the entire congressional senate here.
> 
> I do agree with you that "there is nothing more important for any government to do than protect the safety of its citizens from murderers".
> ...


A very large part of the Israeli population came from Europe after WWII, so I don't really buy the idea that he was never a threat to Israeli citizens. They moved to flee from guys like this.

In the scheme of things the amount being spent on this is miniscule so I don't buy the argument that Israel has more important problems either.

What we have here is a 93 year old mass murderer who has been brought to justice. I don't think we should give him a pass any more than we should have forgotten about Sonny Bolger, the retired mafia hit man they found a couple years back. He hadn't committed a crime in decades but we didn't just forgive and forget.


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## Murphy (Oct 9, 2014)

"Gröning does not consider himself guilty of any crime, pointing to the fact that he was not directly involved in the killing. He describes his part in the extermination machine as an involuntary "small cog in the gears", which gave him involuntary guilt in turn. Citing his summons to testify against a member of the SS accused of murdering prisoners at Auschwitz, he also says he is innocent in the eyes of the law, pointing to the fact that he spoke as a witness and not as a defendant."

Here he is...Oskar Gröning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Murphy said:


> "Gröning does not consider himself guilty of any crime, pointing to the fact that he was not directly involved in the killing. He describes his part in the extermination machine as an involuntary "small cog in the gears", which gave him involuntary guilt in turn. Citing his summons to testify against a member of the SS accused of murdering prisoners at Auschwitz, he also says he is innocent in the eyes of the law, pointing to the fact that he spoke as a witness and not as a defendant."
> 
> Here he is...Oskar Gröning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That's an argument he can use at trial. It is not a reason not to bring him to trial.


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## Murphy (Oct 9, 2014)

Time is not an excuse to not bring this man to trial


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> A 93 year old Auschwitz guard will be going on trial soon for 300,000 counts of complicity to murder.
> 
> Most of you know I am pro -Israel... BUT I think when it comes to WWII war crimes... they are now scrapping the bottom of the barrel to find people
> 
> Time to issue a general pardon/forgiveness


If you committed acts such as those in Auschweitz, you should not get to die in your own bed. It always bugged me that Mengalin got to die of old age. If ever there were a guy i'd toss out the geneva convention for, it woulda been Dr Menglin. Id kill him, revive him with the paddles, and repeat.

So long as apartheid reigns in Israel, there will be no peace. Integration is the only solution to the bloodshed.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Actually it looks like He is being prosecuted by Germany, not Israel. My guess is it's one last attempt to absolve themselves of their National guilt and shame regarding WWII.
Criminal charges

"In September 2014, it was reported that Oskar Gröning had been charged by German prosecutors as an accessory to 300,000 murders as a consequence of his role at the Auschwitz extermination camp. The prosecutors assert that irrespective of his actual participation in any killings, he was a willing cog in the machinery of mass murder. Gröning's prosecution has been reported as being part of a final effort by German officials to bring to account those who actively supported the Nazi campaign of genocide against Jews and other minority groups.[25][26][27]"
Taken from Wikipedia, but they are usually mostly correct.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

How could a man do what they did at Aushweitz and not put a bullet in his brain when it was over? A good man would be tortured for the rest of their life, dont ya think? There were Rangers who said that of all the horror they saw in WWII, the part that haunted them most was finding a concentration camp, usually after the guards tried to 'tidy up' before leaving. 

No sympathy for that guard.


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