# How far is Too Far?



## M118LR

At what distance do you consider it Too Far to protect the ones you love, when SHTF and the only rules are the rules of Survival?

Here is 400 yards: [72 inch (6 foot) is 5 Mildots At 400 yards. Mildot=14.4 x 5]


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## Maine-Marine

it depends on how they are acting...


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## M118LR

MM. care to expand upon that. ie Is your family inside the range of the visible weapons they have when you question/assess how they are acting?


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## NotTooProudToHide

There are a number of factors that come in to play here.

First off as always are we talking about Hurricane Katrina where services are overwhelmed but will be restored eventually or the Walking Dead where its never coming back? If its a Hurricane Katrina situation your still going to have to think with both a legal and ethical mind because your eventually going to be called to account. If its the Walking Dead then you have to answer to yourself, god, and possibly whatever form of government has risen from the ashes.

Secondly like Maine-Marine stated how are they acting. Is it just a band of hungry people trying to scavenge food or is it a gang of murderers and rapist thats met up with your neighbors first?

Thirdly is engaging the best tactical action you can take at the moment or would it be wiser to hunker down and let them slip by you?

Fourthly do you have the skill set to engage and the distance your speaking about and have the supplies to see said engagement through?

I could go through a number of other qualifiers but I think this covers most of the important ones.


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## M118LR

In real life how would I know what the eventual situation would be? Seeing how I''m in Florida, a Katrina style event would knock out all comms/tech, how would I know if I was getting into a walking dead situation?
But for the purpose of this discussion, it's a complete and total breakdown. My goal is to use the SS Minnow with sails to extract the clan to Gilligan's Island and hopefully return when some form of Government rises from the ashes. 

We shall also use the folks in the scope; so how do you determine if they are hungry people, murders, or rapists? I can tell that they are armed. 

Tactically, I'm more concerned about the distance or threat posed to my family, so it appears that the folks in the scope don't know I'm there, at least yet.

I have the firepower, skill set, and more than enough ammunition to neutralize all 6, but only 5 of them are visibly armed. One seems to be sitting with his/her back to me. I used the 400 yard distance as it's probably about time to make a decision based on the AK. Firearms with greater capabilities would require further standoff's, but we can use what's in the scope for this conversation. 

Have I about covered it, or is there something else I might be able to provide?

Forgot, these folks are across a waterway from me, consider the green vegetation to be at the edge of the watercourse.


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## Prepared One

NotTooProudToHide said:


> There are a number of factors that come in to play here.
> 
> First off as always are we talking about Hurricane Katrina where services are overwhelmed but will be restored eventually or the Walking Dead where its never coming back? If its a Hurricane Katrina situation your still going to have to think with both a legal and ethical mind because your eventually going to be called to account. If its the Walking Dead then you have to answer to yourself, god, and possibly whatever form of government has risen from the ashes.
> 
> Secondly like Maine-Marine stated how are they acting. Is it just a band of hungry people trying to scavenge food or is it a gang of murderers and rapist thats met up with your neighbors first?
> 
> Thirdly is engaging the best tactical action you can take at the moment or would it be wiser to hunker down and let them slip by you?
> 
> Fourthly do you have the skill set to engage and the distance your speaking about and have the supplies to see said engagement through?
> 
> I could go through a number of other qualifiers but I think this covers most of the important ones.


This is my take on it as well. Depending on if it is a total zombie apocalypse or a temporary situation. In a momentary WROL I would shoot only if being threatened or attacked. As you said in a short term situation I would be answerable to the law when it is reestablished. In a zombie apocalypse or like scenario, at 400 yards, I would be apt to to let them pass if they were so inclined and engage only if necessary. Why give my position away if they were moving on.


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## M118LR

Prepared One said:


> This is my take on it as well. Depending on if it is a total zombie apocalypse or a temporary situation. In a momentary WROL I would shoot only if being threatened or attacked. As you said in a short term situation I would be answerable to the law when it is reestablished. In a zombie apocalypse or like scenario, at 400 yards, I would be apt to to let them pass if they were so inclined and engage only if necessary. Why give my position away if they were moving on.


So as a lone defender you would allow 5/6 armed men to determine when they were close enough to you that they would determine the timing and conditions of engagement? As it stands in the scope the only advantage you have is the ability of your weapon to reach them before they can reach you. How close do you allow them to get to your family? The end game is quick family extraction from this SHTF situation.


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## M118LR

All opinions are welcome, my opinion may well be over the top to many. Lets just attempt to keep the mudslinging and name calling to a min. Okay.


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## Targetshooter

Who knows what will happen when the SHTF ,,,,,,,,,, We will have to be ready for anything ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I will say my gut feels like a civil war " race war " is in the mix ,,,,,,,,,,, I see it here were I live ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## M118LR

I'm a bit curious as to what reason six armed men would be strolling around on other folks property even if it was a Katrina type situation. Perhaps I have to strong a sense of situational awareness?


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## Moonshinedave

I don't know, it's a tough choice. One of those things you'd have to be there. Whose to say they are even bad guys?, looks can very often be deceiving. Even if they are evil, is it safer to try taking them all out, or waiting to see if they move on?


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## Prepared One

M118LR said:


> So as a lone defender you would allow 5/6 armed men to determine when they were close enough to you that they would determine the timing and conditions of engagement? As it stands in the scope the only advantage you have is the ability of your weapon to reach them before they can reach you. How close do you allow them to get to your family? The end game is quick family extraction from this SHTF situation.


We will all have to make life and death decisions in a SHITF / WROL event based on the situation, need, our skill sets, type of encounter, tactical advantage, and so on. There will be winners and losers in every one of those decisions. Yesterdays winners could very well be today's losers. 6 armed men would not go unnoticed, however, if they are moving along then I will let them pass if possible. Not because I would mind killing them, they are obviously trouble and I could keep others from having to deal with them. But, I am one man of 56 with my wife and no back up, if I can go unnoticed then I will opt for that. If they move towards me then I engage. I may win or loose based on that decision but make no mistake, I will fight to protect me and mine to the best of my ability.


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## M118LR

Can I assume then that 400 yards might not be Too Far? How far of a standoff would make you feel comfortable if they had rifles that could easily be effective at 1000 Yards?


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## Chipper

Bang Flop. It won't matter if they know where I'm at.


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## NotTooProudToHide

M118LR said:


> I'm a bit curious as to what reason six armed men would be strolling around on other folks property even if it was a Katrina type situation. Perhaps I have to strong a sense of situational awareness?


There are multiple reasons armed men could be on your property in a shtf situation.

First and foremost the scenario you present, they are marauders, rapists, murderers, all around bad guys.

Secondly it could be people that are scavenging for food and supplies and they have no clue that your home or who even owns the property

Thirdly it could be law enforcement//military although they would probably be easily identified by uniform, badges, and or insignia.

Fourthly it could be other emergency personnel doing search and rescue, fire/ems or utility workers. Given the situation they might choose to carry even if its not authorized.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

I personally don't sit around and make pre-determined courses of actions without knowing the entire situation.

Saying what you would or would not do in a situation is pointless, without knowing ALL the details of the problem you face and actually BEING in the situations. If the SHTF, chances are good mass confusion will reign and nobody will have a clue of what is going on. We would have to deal with the situation we are in, at that time.

I think we are best served by keeping open minds and available options instead of developing linear thought patterns.


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## AquaHull

I think the person sitting down with their back to you is simply covering their 6.

Nobody dresses like that where I live, so bang / flop. bang / flop, bang / flop, bang / maybe flop since the survivors will be moving out of range or taking cover.
This is what I have
30-06 Ballistics Chart & Coefficient GunData.org

243 Winchester Ballistics Sierra 85 gr BTHP 500 YD Wind Drift Lead

I only have a 2-7 x 35 Burris Ballistic Plex on the 243


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## M118LR

NotTooProudToHide said:


> There are multiple reasons armed men could be on your property in a shtf situation.
> 
> First and foremost the scenario you present, they are marauders, rapists, murderers, all around bad guys.
> 
> Secondly it could be people that are scavenging for food and supplies and they have no clue that your home or who even owns the property
> 
> Thirdly it could be law enforcement//military although they would probably be easily identified by uniform, badges, and or insignia.
> 
> Fourthly it could be other emergency personnel doing search and rescue, fire/ems or utility workers. Given the situation they might choose to carry even if its not authorized.


NTPTH. Both I and my spouse have served as SAR Aircrew. So other than the Helo/Watercraft etc yes the BIG RED CROSS or other appropriate symbols do make a difference. As to people scavenging for food and supplies, perhaps it might be wise to reconsider how overtly you carry a firearm upon an others property. I'd also suggest that an armed party of six might give off the wrong impression. But you need to be aware that there will be folks armed to the teeth and scared to death, and at times even the BIG RED CROSS on a helmet and or vehicle hasn't stopped them from shooting first and asking questions later. But I don't believe that the points of contention you are raising are relevant to the view within the scope.

I wish I was better at this forum picture thing, could one of you Tech Wiz Kids increase the size of my thumbnail picture so that everyone can easily see it?


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## Operator6

If you are shooting at me, then I don't care how far away you are, I'm returning fire. 

So to answer the question, as far as me gun will shoot.


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## M118LR

That is a natural reaction Op6. But that isn't this question. Would you be capable of starting the aggression to protect your family, and at what distance would/could you if you did?


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## Operator6

If I saw marauders coming, as far as me gun will shoot in a SHTF WROL situation.


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## Camel923

Depends on the ground situation. Is there active forces in your area that are hostile? Can you escape easily. Is this a good opportunity to wipe them out because you have nowhere to run? Have you had to drive them off previously? Are you away from your BOL and this would be untraceable to you? Lots of ideas on weather or not to engage.


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## M118LR

FoolAmI must have taken today off, figured he'd be along looking for roach spray and telling folks that I'm a bad influence. But sometimes the situation can call for actions that sound taboo in the comfort of an easy chair. Hopefully Ya'll will never need to fire a shoot in defense of your families. To those that have served and taken those shots for others families, I salute you. But as an Old Sailor the Navy didn't acknowledge the 8541 MOS they sent some of US off to (Marine) USMC Training to earn. Nowadays, even the MOS is outdated. Hope the Old Folks enjoyed the quick reminisce of ranging via Mil-dots. Of course way back when, we used 66 inches instead of 72, but only the really Old Folks will remember why.

PS Don't forget that you may want to engage just so that your family can escape, while you draw their fire.


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## Mosinator762x54r

In a SHTF I could make the 400 yard shot if I had to with my higher powered rifles. Don't ask me to do it with a .22LR.

I don't like the fact that two of them are obviously carrying "battle" rifles and a third is squatted and appears to be checking a corridor to the backside.

I would observe as long as possible. Try to determine if the are an immediate threat before I engage. Are they coming closer or moving away. Do they have a camp nearby. Do I recognize anyone in their group. Maybe wait to see how they react to any noises or other movements in the area prior to engaging.

If at all possible I would NOT engage them at this distance. I don't believe in engaging further than 200 yards if there is an escape route.

That said, put into a corner, with these guys headed at me and my family and enough visual evidence to conclude they represent a mild threat to my family at distance I'd probably go 400-450 yards with my family in a flanked concealed to my slightly rearward position 75-100 yards to my E or W. I would hope at that distance giving them no cover (or the least amount of possible cover) I could nail a minimum of 2 before they figured out a fairly precise location from where I am shooting.

Just my opinion. It's not perfect. But it's not a perfect circumstance either.



M118LR said:


> That is a natural reaction Op6. But that isn't this question. Would you be capable of starting the aggression to protect your family, and at what distance would/could you if you did?


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## M118LR

What range would you contemplate if I let you use one of mine?


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## NotTooProudToHide

I just can't get behind the defensive snipe mentality, it might be my downfall but I can't image taking a shot beyond a hundred yards or so. I couldn't go before my maker and claim with a clean conscious that it was him or me at those types of ranges. I know what I would do in this situation if the force was hostile and it was a situation where deadly force could be justified, I just don't want to get into it on here.


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## Mosinator762x54r

It's really hard to say. It really is. So many factors going into it. Not many of us really could say until we were there and I wonder what % would actually go through with it even put into a situation of that nature on a 100% real and true basis. Let's hope we never find out. For all of our sake.



NotTooProudToHide said:


> I just can't get behind the defensive snipe mentality, it might be my downfall but I can't image taking a shot beyond a hundred yards or so. I couldn't go before my maker and claim with a clean conscious that it was him or me at those types of ranges. I know what I would do in this situation if the force was hostile and it was a situation where deadly force could be justified, I just don't want to get into it on here.


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## bigwheel

M118LR said:


> At what distance do you consider it Too Far to protect the ones you love, when SHTF and the only rules are the rules of Survival?
> 
> Here is 400 yards: [72 inch (6 foot) is 5 Mildots At 400 yards. Mildot=14.4 x 5]


I worry more about how fast I can get to the gun. Ranges is ranges. Always time to worry about that...go get a different gun..blah blah blah.


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## TacticalCanuck

In this hypothetical situation I would think that stealth would be the best option. If they don't know you are there and are not looking for you do not get found. If they are organized and coming for you they are not going to approach in the open and expose themselves. 

A 400 yard shot for a sportsman under nice conditions is very doable. 

I think nobody has any business pointing the business end of a firearm at anyone unless their life is in jeopardy and there is no other option. Sadly this will be the case in SHTF.


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## Prepared One

I would be uncomfortable with a 400 yard shot. My eyes and skill sets would make it a difficult shot for me. I am no long range ninja sharp shooter to be sure. 200 is more in my comfort zone. I work with my AR at 100 and in and I am competent at that range. Again, if they are moving along I would let them pass at any distance. I am alone with no back up so I want to be small. If in a group or joined with neighbors for protection then that changes the dynamics somewhat.


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## AquaHull

I'd still shoot though


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## Moonshinedave

One problem with taking pot-shots at people, they generally have a habit of shooting back, perhaps along with their 35 buddies you hadn't spotted yet.


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## 8301

My 17 yr old and a few friends could be hunting and go in a neighbors yard looking for a drink of water. By your 400 yard term of engagement (you've suggested much longer distances in the past) you would shoot a group on thirsty kids who may have met the neighbor sometime in the past and are looking for a water faucet outside his house. 

At that distance they could have already announced themselves to the neighbor and you could not hear them.

Unless the group is directly threatening at that distance it is wrong to shoot first and ask questions later.


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## txmarine6531

Depends on the threat and situation. If I have lots of people with me who are competent with a weapon, then I'd take long shots, 800-900 yards. If it's just me, then I wouldn't engage unless I had to, and it would be close range. As in within 300 yards. I'd rather find a good place to hide honestly. I'm not Rambo, or some badass. You have to pick your battles.


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## 8301

neonoah said:


> Pants up! No towel!


meaning???


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## darsk20

M118LR said:


> At what distance do you consider it Too Far to protect the ones you love, when SHTF and the only rules are the rules of Survival?
> 
> Here is 400 yards: [72 inch (6 foot) is 5 Mildots At 400 yards. Mildot=14.4 x 5]


First, let me preface with the fact that I have not been in military, been in law enforcement, nor have any specific tactical training. Second, in my area of operations I just will never have a 400 yard shot unless everything is flattened, in which case that would include my house and my family, so it is much more likely going to be a 100 - 200 yard shot with less time to respond. I live in a very hilly, well established (read lots of big trees) neighborhood.

So let's look at the scenario, SHTF with only rules of survival (which I have never been taught what the "rules of survival" are, so I am just stabbing in the dark here).

I am in a watch position and the 6 unknowns are in my scope. What are they doing:

1. Just wandering down the road, not entering any houses nor making an attempt to enter (not overtly aggressive, kinda how the picture above looks): I do nada, other than put my family on alert and have them ready to E&E, probably similar to Mosinator, at some point behind and flanking.

2. Just wandering down the road, but making an attempt to see what people may have, and or minor attempts to enter homes (jiggling handles but not breaking doors down) but again no obvious aggressive moves: See #1, especially if I am well hidden.

3. Obviously aggressive, kicking doors down and or shots fired: Family actively E&E'ing to a rendezvous point. I am probably falling back too, but indirectly to ensure they BG's don't get my families trail. If they start towards them, I engage, but otherwise if they are just kicking doors in looking for why engage unless absolutely necessary? The above picture shows they have no knowledge that you are there and you can E&E without notice. If you engage, your presence is now known and they can track you and or your family if you don't get them all. Much simpler to just not be there, not be seen, and not be caught.

4. Obviously aggressive and they know you are there: Engage at any range in order to ensure your families safety and ability to E&E.

5. At war in US, part of the local militia, these are enemy combatants and I am part of an engaging force: bang/plop bang/plop . . . you get the picture.


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## TacticalCanuck

If they were attacking people and taking door to door no question organize and defend.


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## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> My 17 yr old and a few friends could be hunting and go in a neighbors yard looking for a drink of water. By your 400 yard term of engagement (you've suggested much longer distances in the past) you would shoot a group on thirsty kids who may have met the neighbor sometime in the past and are looking for a water faucet outside his house.
> 
> At that distance they could have already announced themselves to the neighbor and you could not hear them.
> 
> Unless the group is directly threatening at that distance it is wrong to shoot first and ask questions later.


You don't seem to be getting the concept here FoolAmI, take a look in the scope. You got your boys out hunting alone when groups of armed men are brazenly roaming the territory without concern or fear of any manner of Law enforcement. In my location your boy's would need to swim more than 1000 yards, and there still wouldn't be a faucet that supplied anything other than salt water.

It's almost 2000 yards to the mouth of the inlet providing exit to the open sea, while my family members are making that journey I shall ensure that they are making it in safety. I've already been trained and used in this capacity for a couple of decades in the past, in the event that it is required to ensure my families safe passage, I have no problem reverting to the ROE's of the RSSG were I learned as a teenager. Anyone blatantly armed that is not a member of my family group during the extraction should have made a better decision. I wouldn't have even let the folks in the scope get to 400 yards, but that is what we are using for this conversation.

Now I am assuming that most of the folks on this forum haven't spent decades expending 100 rounds a day from their primary weapon at distances of 1000 yards or more. Even less have been in the position that they where required to make such shots as part of their profession. But if SHTF even the 400 yard shot in the scope would be allowing your loved ones the possibility of taking incoming fire. I've already explained that those folks wouldn't have gotten that close if this was an actual life or death get out of dodge situation. I have been trained to use every advantage I can when in conflict, having a greater effective range with my weapon is a force multiplier. I have no repulsion taking full advantage of a greater standoff range. The closer you come to my family, the more you shall ensure that I will engage, if for no other reason than to draw you towards me and away from them. So if the situation becomes a requirement,(to borrow prose) I guess it becomes a question if I can be as good once, as I once was. Failure isn't an option if the safety of my family hangs in the balance. I believe that their are many others here that have the same determination, I just hope we never need to be in such situations. (ever again)


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## 8301

To a large extent while I can't justify shooting at someone not posing a direct threat to my or a neighbor's location it may depend on a person's location and ability to E&E. In my case I have a backup location owned by a friend stocked good for a week just over a mile away with no homes in the middle... pure woods, ponds and fields.

Faced with an overwhelming aggressive acting force 300-400 yards away I can back off and come back (night vision, suppressor. ect) and elimate any unwanted visitors using M118LR methods but only after ascertaining the intruders are truly dangerous and not just a group of hunters looking for dinner outside my buildings (inside I will fight for but from a distance). I would shoot a few warning shots first to help establish if they were truly aggressive before backing off.

I can't justify shooting someone who's just wandering by. Yep, they may eat a day or two of my food but it's worth it to me if it reduces the risk of shooting some innocent idiot out hunting. And knowing the lay of my land I'd have the advantage in a slower contest.


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## 8301

M118LR said:


> You don't seem to be getting the concept here FoolAmI, take a look in the scope. You got your boys out hunting alone when groups of armed men are brazenly roaming the territory without concern or fear of any manner of Law enforcement. In my location your boy's would need to swim more than 1000 yards, and there still wouldn't be a faucet that supplied anything other than salt water.
> 
> It's almost 2000 yards to the mouth of the inlet providing exit to the open sea, while my family members are making that journey I shall ensure that they are making it in safety. I've already been trained and used in this capacity for a couple of decades in the past, in the event that it is required to ensure my families safe passage, I have no problem reverting to the ROE's of the RSSG were I learned as a teenager. Anyone blatantly armed that is not a member of my family group during the extraction should have made a better decision. I wouldn't have even let the folks in the scope get to 400 yards, but that is what we are using for this conversation.
> 
> Now I am assuming that most of the folks on this forum haven't spent decades expending 100 rounds a day from their primary weapon at distances of 1000 yards or more. Even less have been in the position that they where required to make such shots as part of their profession. But if SHTF even the 400 yard shot in the scope would be allowing your loved ones the possibility of taking incoming fire. I've already explained that those folks wouldn't have gotten that close if this was an actual life or death get out of dodge situation. I have been trained to use every advantage I can when in conflict, having a greater effective range with my weapon is a force multiplier. I have no repulsion taking full advantage of a greater standoff range. The closer you come to my family, the more you shall ensure that I will engage, if for no other reason than to draw you towards me and away from them. So if the situation becomes a requirement,(to borrow prose) I guess it becomes a question if I can be as good once, as I once was. Failure isn't an option if the safety of my family hangs in the balance. I believe that their are many others here that have the same determination, I just hope we never need to be in such situations. (ever again)


Reality time here,,, yep, You've mentally practiced for "kill shots" for many years. But most of us are normal people with slightly above average shooting skills who still feel a sense of humanity. We have a hard time shooting a pet, much less a human.

Personally I don't want to be a soulless terminator.


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## M118LR

It is obvious that we have a different level of comfort within our abilities FoolAmI. Facing an overwhelming aggressive force at 300-400 yards, when I am and my family are well within range of their weapons, alone isn't a situation that I feel I could afford. While I might still be able to evade on my own, an entire family group has little chance. Best case would be a starburst style action, and that would still leave all the others to their own devices. Not acceptable in my book. Guess they will just have to come face down my firearm while the clan sails away.


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## 8301

neonoah said:


> You don't need that explained jeesh


I'm old and confused... Explain it to me.


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## Denton

Four hundred yards? Yes; with boring consistency.

Defend my family? Of course.

Discriminate, rather than kill on a whim? Of course.


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## 8301

M118LR said:


> It is obvious that we have a different level of comfort within our abilities FoolAmI. Facing an overwhelming aggressive force at 300-400 yards, when I am and my family are well within range of their weapons, alone isn't a situation that I feel I could afford. While I might still be able to evade on my own, an entire family group has little chance. Best case would be a starburst style action, and that would still leave all the others to their own devices. Not acceptable in my book. Guess they will just have to come face down my firearm while the clan sails away.


Sad to hear you don't have a safe E&E route. I thought that was normal procedure for any respectable quasi- military group.


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## M118LR

Guess I would be accused of blatant discrimination against anyone plainly brandishing a firearm within my weapons capable distance, if extracting from a lawless society. Hope that it shall never come to this on American Soil/Water.


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## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> Sad to hear you don't have a safe E&E route. I thought that was normal procedure for any respectable quasi- military group.


I'm even sorrier to hear that you believe there is such a thing. Should the worst happen, hope we meet when things become civil once again. Luck to you and yours, I'm taking my folks out of harms way.


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## Denton

M118LR said:


> Guess I would be accused of blatant discrimination against anyone plainly brandishing a firearm within my weapons capable distance, if extracting from a lawless society. Hope that it shall never come to this on American Soil/Water.


Pardon me for not being able to fold my M1A into my pocket! :21:


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## Moonshinedave

Perhaps in a SHTF world, something harder than defending against the bad guys would be not becoming one?


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## M118LR

Denton said:


> Pardon me for not being able to fold my M1A into my pocket! :21:


Don't take your decision lightly, the 1000 yard capability of that M1A would make you even more dangerous than the folks in the scope picture. You would make yourself the primary target. But this shall hopefully never need pass.


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## M118LR

Moonshinedave said:


> Perhaps in a SHTF world, something harder than defending against the bad guys would be not becoming one?


The folks in the scope live in that SHTF Land every day, it isn't a place of Black & White. There are many shades of grey, but it is easy to recognize the American flag worn on another Americans shoulder irregardless of it's color. But it is impossible to return to the innocence (naivety) once you have experienced what SHTF is like in other lands. Somehow the belief that it couldn't happen here is split by the tiniest glint of concern. People defending the ones they love should not make them bad guys, but it may be cause for them to bad things. Sometimes the lines are a bit blurred. JMHO.


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## Montana Rancher

M118LR said:


> At what distance do you consider it Too Far to protect the ones you love, when SHTF and the only rules are the rules of Survival?
> 
> Here is 400 yards: [72 inch (6 foot) is 5 Mildots At 400 yards. Mildot=14.4 x 5]


Although I appreciate your understanding of Mils, I did a bunch of that back in my artillery days, I have a better question

Do you want go give away your position by firing a shot at a person 1/4 mile away that isn't threatening you?


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## M118LR

Montana Rancher said:


> Although I appreciate your understanding of Mils, I did a bunch of that back in my artillery days, I have a better question
> 
> Do you want go give away your position by firing a shot at a person 1/4 mile away that isn't threatening you?


If I considered the person not to be a threat, I'd have no reason to fire a shot. But during threat assessment should I consider an obviously armed combatant a threat, I don't believe they would be around long enough to hear my rifles report up to a mile and 1/4 away. Needless to say, it is the position of the ones I am protecting, not my position that concerns me. If need be I'll engage to ensure that I draw attention to my position. It is of also of little concern if I am being threatened, but it is a terminal offense to be a threat to my family if I am the only Law East of the Mississippi.


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## 8301

I'm curious about something. Have you actually asked the people who you plan on protecting what they think about shooting someone walking down the road in a non threatening manor 400 yards from your location? Not told them but actually asked them what they thought about possibly shooting an innocent person looking for supper or maybe a stupid teenager being stupid?


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## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> I'm curious about something. Have you actually asked the people who you plan on protecting what they think about shooting someone walking down the road in a non threatening manor 400 yards from your location? Not told them but actually asked them what they thought about possibly shooting an innocent person looking for supper or maybe a stupid teenager being stupid?


Perhaps I can satisfy some of your curiosity FoolAmI, as it is obvious that you are purposely not comprehending. A firearm with a 300 yard effective range, isn't allowed within 400 yards: 1000 yard effective range isn't allowed within 1200 yards, etc... out to the maximum effective range of the rifle I'm using. Age, Sex, and intelligence are not my concern. Once you have decided to openly bear arms, you have elected to become a combatant, so I have no need to be concerned with your intent. The further the effective range of the weapon you bear, the higher up the Target Priority List you move.


----------



## AquaHull

My eyes are bad, so they all get shot(at)


----------



## 8301

M118LR said:


> Perhaps I can satisfy some of your curiosity FoolAmI, as it is obvious that you are purposely not comprehending. A firearm with a 300 yard effective range, isn't allowed within 400 yards: 1000 yard effective range isn't allowed within 1200 yards, etc... out to the maximum effective range of the rifle I'm using. Age, Sex, and intelligence are not my concern. Once you have decided to openly bear arms, you have elected to become a combatant, so I have no need to be concerned with your intent. The further the effective range of the weapon you bear, the higher up the Target Priority List you move.
> 
> I'm curious about something. Have you actually asked the people who you plan on protecting what they think about shooting someone walking down the road in a non threatening manor 400 yards from your location? Not told them but actually asked them what they thought about possibly shooting an innocent person looking for supper or maybe a stupid teenager being stupid?


The original question is still not answered. Have you asked them for their opinion?


----------



## 8301

M118LR said:


> Perhaps I can satisfy some of your curiosity FoolAmI, as it is obvious that you are purposely not comprehending. A firearm with a 300 yard effective range, isn't allowed within 400 yards: 1000 yard effective range isn't allowed within 1200 yards, etc... out to the maximum effective range of the rifle I'm using. Age, Sex, and intelligence are not my concern. Once you have decided to openly bear arms, you have elected to become a combatant, so I have no need to be concerned with your intent. The further the effective range of the weapon you bear, the higher up the Target Priority List you move.


So if I carry a water squirt gun I can walk up close enough to you to punch you in the nose? Are those your TOE?


----------



## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> The original question is still not answered. Have you asked them for their opinion?


I have no reason to ask their opinion, the only finger on the trigger of my rifle is mine. The only one that needs to live with the images inside my scope is me. The only opinion of consequence at that moment shall be mine. Hence the mantra of "It's not your choice".

As to the squirt gun. Refugees don't carry rifles! The only reason you have to bear arms is to use them. If you don't use them as far away and as well as another, then you chose poorly!!!!!


----------



## 8301

M118LR said:


> I have no reason to ask their opinion, the only finger on the trigger of my rifle is mine. The only one that needs to live with the images inside my scope is me. The only opinion of consequence at that moment shall be mine. Hence the mantra of "It's not your choice!


My group are all on the same TOE. I thought that was the best way. You guys should have a talk to become a more effective group.


----------



## 8301

M118LR said:


> As to the squirt gun. Refugees don't carry rifles! The only reason you have to bear arms is to use them. If you don't use them as far away and as well as another, then you chose poorly!!!!!


If the SHTF occurrence isn't totally devastating I'll at least not be in jail (or shunned by friends and family) and able to support my family during the rebuilding. 
If it is totally devastating I'll at least be able to consider myself a man instead of wondering if I had shot some innocent stupid kid.

Honor is important to me.


----------



## M118LR

With the exception of Thing 3 and her spouse (both raised militarily) everyone in my clan over 18 has served in combat in the armed forces. How effective is your group at over 2000 yards? There is no such thing as a stupid innocent kid with a firearm, if yours are it's TOTALLY YOUR FAULT! As you have never had to abide by a (service members or plebes) code of Honor. (Not to be confused with a code of conduct) Perhaps it is best that your opinion isn't publicized. You are to concerned with your own well being to be an asset to those putting their lives in your hands. Everyone dies with regrets, Warriors die without whimpering. JMHO.


----------



## M118LR

I ask forgiveness FoolAmI for my last. I am deep in my cups and should know that the sins of the father are not to be paid for to the 7th of seven sons. It matters not how true the arrow, if the message misses the pure of heart. Sorry.


----------



## 8301

M118LR said:


> I'm even sorrier to hear that you believe there is such a thing. Should the worst happen, hope we meet when things become civil once again. Luck to you and yours, I'm taking my folks out of harms way.


Hold it a minute,,, I and others have said we may temporally back off ( escape and evade ) and yet you say there is no such thing for your group. Do you intend to keep them in a un-survivable situation (like a burning house) to perish as a group? Your stated goal was to defend your group by shooting any potential threat (armed or not) at 400 yards to defend your group.

sounds a little like Johnstown Africa drinking Kool-Aid. Makes me sick to even think about it. and yes, I know you'll call me soft for getting sick at the thought.

poor roach


----------



## ffparamedic

M118LR: First off let me say thank you for your service. I appreciate what you've (apparently) done in defense of our country.

However I find your writings to be little more than an attempt to chest bump and try to point out that you've been a high speed guy, which you may have been or you may be some internet commando in your mom's basement that is regurgitating the last cool sniper move he did on call of duty. To me you're a faceless acronym on a screen. I however do know quite a few guys that I've shared hard times with that has been there and done that and have the scars to prove it and they don't talk any of the ridiculous asshat shit that you talk, pretty much from what I've gathered you want everyone to believe that you can take out 5-6 enemy combatants at 400 + yards before they get away or take you out (and I've served as a sniper in an LEO role) I can tell you for a fact that's not gonna be easy, and or that you can shoot at over 2000 yds, or that you have a really cool sniper rifle.

Are you really idiotic enough that you're just going to sit there and snipe away at anyone with a gun inside of your self imposed 2000 yard range? How old are you? 12? You have insinuated that you were involved in the Iranian hostage rescue which should put you fairly mature....which you don't seem to be.

If you want to put up an educational thoughtful post encouraging folks to think about their maximum effective range and food for thought as to what inclusions would make them suspicious of somebody but you come across as a complete assclown.

Again no disrespect intended for your service, I don't want or need verification of it. I tried my best to serve and couldn't because the USMC wouldn't let me in because of my heart. So anyone who has put their name on the line has sure done more than I.


----------



## 8301

ffparamedic said:


> M118LR: First off let me say thank you for your service. I appreciate what you've (apparently) done in defense of our country.
> 
> However I find your writings to be little more than an attempt to chest bump and try to point out that you've been a high speed guy, which you may have been or you may be some internet commando in your mom's basement that is regurgitating the last cool sniper move he did on call of duty. To me you're a faceless acronym on a screen. I however do know quite a few guys that I've shared hard times with that has been there and done that and have the scars to prove it and they don't talk any of the ridiculous asshat shit that you talk, pretty much from what I've gathered you want everyone to believe that you can take out 5-6 enemy combatants at 400 + yards before they get away or take you out (and I've served as a sniper in an LEO role) I can tell you for a fact that's not gonna be easy, and or that you can shoot at over 2000 yds, or that you have a really cool sniper rifle.
> 
> Are you really idiotic enough that you're just going to sit there and snipe away at anyone with a gun inside of your self imposed 2000 yard range? How old are you? 12? You have insinuated that you were involved in the Iranian hostage rescue which should put you fairly mature....which you don't seem to be.
> 
> If you want to put up an educational thoughtful post encouraging folks to think about their maximum effective range and food for thought as to what inclusions would make them suspicious of somebody but you come across as a complete assclown.
> 
> Again no disrespect intended for your service, I don't want or need verification of it. I tried my best to serve and couldn't because the USMC wouldn't let me in because of my heart. So anyone who has put their name on the line has sure done more than I.


Said it better than I could have.


----------



## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> Hold it a minute,,, I and others have said we may temporally back off ( escape and evade ) and yet you say there is no such thing for your group. Do you intend to keep them in a un-survivable situation (like a burning house) to perish as a group? Your stated goal was to defend your group by shooting any potential threat (armed or not) at 400 yards to defend your group.
> 
> sounds a little like Johnstown Africa drinking Kool-Aid. Makes me sick to even think about it. and yes, I know you'll call me soft for getting sick at the thought.
> 
> poor roach


Looks like it's double tap time.

FoolAmI: While you and yours attempt to deal with me, mine are exiting stage left. Should you make it to the parapet that I reigned destruction upon you and yours, other than a bolt-less rifle what did you expect to find for your swim? At 400 yards Ya'll are backpedaling for the next 1600 yards + and as to your practiced evasion skills? Once I have engaged there is nowhere to hide. So at best you need to track me in the waters of the bay. Even if you do manage to brace me, I've already won.

Now on to ffparamedic:

I take no disrespect to my service. 
Now about all those firefights that you want to contest? Yesterdays accomplishments have no Bering on tomorrows conflicts. I haven't heard of a LEO Sniper being terminated at 100 yards, and I served as a LEO SWAT Sniper After being a Marine Patrol Diver in the CHPD. Now if you truly want to pit your .223 LEO Sniper Rifle in a life or death situation with a McMillan TAC 50-1 and the Boys in Blue don't have the situation contained prior to your arrival, we can match actual experiences. But if you rethink your BRAVADO? Or even take a minute to reread what I have typed. I think I have shot expert qualifications at the 1000 yard range more times than you have expended rounds on a thousand yard range. No apology required, but I'm interested in all you Sniper vs Sniper encounters?

I shouldn't do this but??????

I am an Old Man and all I have done is ancient history! To call this a chest bump is just the testimony of a coward that never dared to and hid behind some supposed physical ailment expecting me to pity them for their abnormality. Don't bother to play upon the sympathies of those who have, by not overcoming simple physical ailments. Don't expect an Old Man like me to pucker up and cry because you never even attempted to make it! BOOOOO WHOOOOOOOO.


----------



## ffparamedic

I'm not contesting any firefights. I don't know that you've had any.

Who said an LEO sniper got terminated at 100 yards?

I didn't have a 223 rifle. 

I don't have any bravado, I've got nothing to be bravado about. There's been way more ppl that have gone before me and done far greater.

You think you have, but you don't know BC I'm the same thing to you that you are to me, a faceless name on a screen....anyone who needs to know where I've been or what I've done can find it through the channels. I'm not interested in posting shit on a forum to attempt to make myself look like a badass, for one BC I'm not and two BC even if I was my mama taught to not be an assclown.


----------



## M118LR

ffparamedic said:


> I'm not contesting any firefights. I don't know that you've had any.
> 
> Who said an LEO sniper got terminated at 100 yards?
> 
> I didn't have a 223 rifle.
> 
> I don't have any bravado, I've got nothing to be bravado about. There's been way more ppl that have gone before me and done far greater.
> 
> You think you have, but you don't know BC I'm the same thing to you that you are to me, a faceless name on a screen....anyone who needs to know where I've been or what I've done can find it through the channels. I'm not interested in posting shit on a forum to attempt to make myself look like a badass, for one BC I'm not and two BC even if I was my mama taught to not be an assclown.


ffparamedic, is there anything that you have done that others on this forum might not have? 
Could you share those experiences, feelings, or after action reports with others to broaden their scope????????????
What would you say to me if I never had those experiences and started giving you some S..T about it? Just because you haven't or couldn't conceive of doing something,what makes you think that other or better men have not?


----------



## M118LR

ffparamedic said:


> I don't have any bravado, I've got nothing to be bravado about. I'm not interested in posting shit on a forum to attempt to make myself look like a badass, for one BC I'm not and two BC even if I was my mama taught to not be an assclown.


Best you learn what Mama taught you, seems you lost your teaching. Frank Zappa can teach you about your Mama.


----------



## ffparamedic

Maybe, maybe not. If I ever do decide to make a post about something I've done it'll be an educational post that doesn't include chest bumping and horseshit filler.

I have no idea what experiences you've had, I can tell you there's been a lot of guys doing a lot of things I couldn't convince of doing.....no problems admitting that. Hell there's quite a few 7-11 clerks that are more high speed than I could ever be.


----------



## M118LR

ffparamedic said:


> Maybe, maybe not. If I ever do decide to make a post about something I've done it'll be an educational post that doesn't include chest bumping and horseshit filler.
> 
> I have no idea what experiences you've had, I can tell you there's been a lot of guys doing a lot of things I couldn't convince of doing.....no problems admitting that. Hell there's quite a few 7-11 clerks that are more high speed than I could ever be.


So now that you added your horseshit filler, as an LEO Sniper, how many 4oo yard shots have you taken? Or are you incapable with your LEO Sniper Rifle of taking out an armed combatant at 400 yards. Remember you tossed out the challenge. Don't let an alligator mouth overload a mosquito butt hole! Patiently awaiting your keyboard generated reply!!!!!!


----------



## ffparamedic

Lol, paper says I am and can.....never been there so I don't know for sure.


----------



## ffparamedic

5-6 of them in the timeframe necessary before they move or return fire? Not a chance.


----------



## M118LR

Yup, and you know a guy" etc....etc..." Sure doesn't stack up to I did and I have, even if it was long before you were born. If you can't respect your elders, perhaps you should respect your betters. Stolen from John Wayne. Either put up or......? JMHO.


----------



## Farva

M118LR said:


> Yup, and you know a guy" etc....etc..." Sure doesn't stack up to I did and I have, even if it was long before you were born. If you can't respect your elders, perhaps you should respect your betters. Stolen from John Wayne. Either put up or......? JMHO.


GO Snipey GO! You are Awesome! You can do it!

This is some of the best stuff since Gecko45....................


----------



## M118LR

Farva said:


> GO Snipey GO! You are Awesome! You can do it!
> 
> This is some of the best stuff since Gecko45....................


Farva, live life one day at time and cherish the ones you hold dear like there is no tomorrow. Now go back to your well paying cubical and stay out of grown folks conversations. The amount of expert qualifications you have shot on the 1000 yard known distance range from your position beneath the waves amazes even me. But I guess it's keyboard commando time so the substance of this conversation has long past.


----------



## SittingElf

High Power Spotting Scopes are not just for evaluating shot results. In SHTF, they can also be used for trying to determin intent of individuals and groups approaching your AO.

For me and my group, 400 yards is "DANGER CLOSE". Wayyyy too close for comfort, especially if it is a group, primarily of armed men and no children in tow.

400 yards is no great feat, and using a suppressor makes it extremely difficult to determine your location. The sonic signature will be heard, but determining actual shooter location is extremely difficult if suppressed....and especially if you are using a sniper hide to shoot from. (Have you folks read the stories about the sniper in Libya who is taking out ISIS leaders regularly...and is an unknown?)

I shoot F-Class competition out to 1000 yards. With my 300 WinMag, I'm a 76% shooter on a 5" target. At 600 Yards with the 300, or my 6.5 Creedmore, I'm up to over 95%.
At 600 with my 6.8 AR, I am comfortable with 75% center mass accuracy. All use a .30 suppressor...and that becomes even more effective when mounted on my SBR shooting subsonic 300 Blackout inside the house and out in the yard to 100 Yards. Don't even need ear protection.

I understand the hesitation some here have about being unsure of the intent of groups approaching your area... but in the worst situations, are you really willing to risk not only yourselves, but perhaps your family, your young daughters, your home, your survival preps, etc, because they might just be nice men who are traveling through your neighborhood with no nefarious intent? Sorry, not me or mine.


----------



## Farva

M118LR said:


> Farva, live life one day at time and cherish the ones you hold dear like there is no tomorrow. Now go back to your well paying cubical and stay out of grown folks conversations. The amount of expert qualifications you have shot on the 1000 yard known distance range from your position beneath the waves amazes even me. But I guess it's keyboard commando time so the substance of this conversation has long past.


Hi Snipey,

Did you work in a mall before? Can you tell us about that?

Thanks Hombre!


----------



## Denton

SittingElf said:


> High Power Spotting Scopes are not just for evaluating shot results. In SHTF, they can also be used for trying to determin intent of individuals and groups approaching your AO.
> 
> For me and my group, 400 yards is "DANGER CLOSE". Wayyyy too close for comfort, especially if it is a group, primarily of armed men and no children in tow.
> 
> 400 yards is no great feat, and using a suppressor makes it extremely difficult to determine your location. The sonic signature will be heard, but determining actual shooter location is extremely difficult if suppressed....and especially if you are using a sniper hide to shoot from. (Have you folks read the stories about the sniper in Libya who is taking out ISIS leaders regularly...and is an unknown?)
> 
> I shoot F-Class competition out to 1000 yards. With my 300 WinMag, I'm a 76% shooter on a 5" target. At 600 Yards with the 300, or my 6.5 Creedmore, I'm up to over 95%.
> At 600 with my 6.8 AR, I am comfortable with 75% center mass accuracy. All use a .30 suppressor...and that becomes even more effective when mounted on my SBR shooting subsonic 300 Blackout inside the house and out in the yard to 100 Yards. Don't even need ear protection.
> 
> I understand the hesitation some here have about being unsure of the intent of groups approaching your area... but in the worst situations, are you really willing to risk not only yourselves, but perhaps your family, your young daughters, your home, your survival preps, etc, because they might just be nice men who are traveling through your neighborhood with no nefarious intent? Sorry, not me or mine.


I want to know about the 1,000 yard range and why you haven't invited me!

It's been a few decades since I did that with an M-21, but I want to stretch it out with my Savage mdl. 10.


----------



## SittingElf

Denton said:


> I want to know about the 1,000 yard range and why you haven't invited me!
> 
> It's been a few decades since I did that with an M-21, but I want to stretch it out with my Savage mdl. 10.


The only 1000Y range in Florida is in Myakka City, near Sarasota. Our range in Palm Bay has a 600Y range, as well as many, many other ranges. Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Archery, Air, small bore, youth, etc... Most comprehensive club in Florida by far! Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club


----------



## Denton

I know about the one in Myakka City. It's a few hours down the road. I guess I'll just be happy with 400 yards for right now.


----------



## bigwheel

Turn me loose at 400 yards with Mr. Sig. i can make them duck and cover till the kid in Arkansas brings the Elk gun back. Some folks create an imaginary world in their heads and insist on moving in and living there. It seems a lot like Christianity.


----------



## 8301

Farva said:


> Hi Snipey,
> 
> Did you work in a mall before? Can you tell us about that?
> 
> Thanks Hombre!


M118LR, Mall Cop extraordinaire


----------



## Denton

Let's not turn nasty.


----------



## Mad Trapper

M118LR said:


> In real life how would I know what the eventual situation would be? Seeing how I''m in Florida, a Katrina style event would knock out all comms/tech, how would I know if I was getting into a walking dead situation?
> But for the purpose of this discussion, it's a complete and total breakdown. My goal is to use the SS Minnow with sails to extract the clan to Gilligan's Island and hopefully return when some form of Government rises from the ashes.
> 
> We shall also use the folks in the scope; so how do you determine if they are hungry people, murders, or rapists? I can tell that they are armed.
> 
> Tactically, I'm more concerned about the distance or threat posed to my family, so it appears that the folks in the scope don't know I'm there, at least yet.
> 
> I have the firepower, skill set, and more than enough ammunition to neutralize all 6, but only 5 of them are visibly armed. One seems to be sitting with his/her back to me. I used the 400 yard distance as it's probably about time to make a decision based on the AK. Firearms with greater capabilities would require further standoff's, but we can use what's in the scope for this conversation.
> 
> Have I about covered it, or is there something else I might be able to provide?
> 
> Forgot, these folks are across a waterway from me, consider the green vegetation to be at the edge of the watercourse.


With an AK at 400, you will be just pissing them off or alerting them. Be lucky to get 1 or 2.


----------



## M118LR

Mad Trapper said:


> With an AK at 400, you will be just pissing them off or alerting them. Be lucky to get 1 or 2.


Mad Trapper, the folks IN THE SCOPE are the ones armed with the AK. My rifle has a bit longer range capability.

Fort Stewart also has facilities beyond 1000 yards, for those in the North Florida/ Georgia area. Check online for access to the Red Cloud Range if interested.


----------



## Oddcaliber

Friend or foe,that's the question. At 400 yards unless you have some really good optics to count buttons on a shirt I'd say leave them be. Intent is very hard to prove,even harder at 400 yards. Unless you know they are looking for you keep them under observation till they're gone. If they engage first then return fire. Have 1 way in and 6 ways out.


----------



## M118LR

Oddcaliber, refugees don't have rifles. The only reason to bear arms IS THE INTENT TO USE THEM. If you wait until they engage perhaps your kinfolk shall survive to play Taps over you.


----------



## Quip

SHTF. You are on my property *unwanted/uninvited*. You are armed. You screwed up big time. The 2 in the back get their virgins 1st.
Plus I now have 6 ak's.


----------



## M118LR

When encountering a trained military unit engaging the (trailer) rear guard, the most common response would be for the main body to retreat in support. Many times that will leave the (point) forward element momentarily unsupported. When encountering untrained marauders, it would be more common to expect them to scatter like roaches when you turn on a light. 

Now where is FoolAmI's can of roach spray? :lol:


----------



## 8301

M118LR said:


> Now where is FoolAmI's can of roach spray? :lol:


Taking a night off. Poking at you is too easy and I'm getting bored with such an easy target.


----------



## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> Taking a night off. Poking at you is too easy and I'm getting bored with such an easy target.


Last I heard you were reduced to name calling as I'd sent the termites to chew off the last of the wooden leg you had to stand on. I expected so much more of you than to ally with Farva........... especially when there were so many more qualified that had quality concerns for How far was Too far.

And to think that I started this thread in your honor, just so that you would have a venue to chastise my irreverent deeds. This was your sounding board to explain how far we the people have come since the 1960's. Just imagine that this summer that 17 year old teenager of yours would turn 18 and have reserved seating on the first flight to Nam as an American Fighting Man. Heaven forbid that Uncle Sam would have found in him the spark of a SNIPER! Sure would change your conversations at the house wouldn't it?

POKE the FROG.....POKE.......POKE.


----------



## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> M118LR, Mall Cop extraordinaire


Bye any chance does this look like your last post on this subject?


----------



## Gunner's Mate

Well you want over the top, I would call Arty and save my ammo


----------



## M118LR

Gunner's Mate said:


> Well you want over the top, I would call Arty and save my ammo


Well,we shall allow that as long as it isn't Naval Gunfire Support. How's that strike you Gunn's? :lol:

In this Battle all you get to do is float off the coast and listen to the radio. :lol:

Option 2: Hop on the beach bound LST with some small arms and provide a little cover fire. Never said anything but Thank You to a sailor with an M-14 and extra rounds Gunn's! :lol:


----------



## Medic33

depends if they are a threat I guess about as far as I can launch a buick at them.
no threat since they don't know were I am I would just keep it that way.


----------



## stevekozak

All i have to say to this thread is ad follows:

1. Who is going to protect your family after you have "drawn fire to yourself" and gotten killed?
And:

2. No matter how big and bad you are, there is always someone bigger and badder out there! ( or luckier, which is even more scary)


----------



## SittingElf

stevekozak said:


> All i have to say to this thread is ad follows:
> 
> 1. Who is going to protect your family after you have "drawn fire to yourself" and gotten killed?
> And:
> 
> 2. No matter how big and bad you are, there is always someone bigger and badder out there! ( or luckier, which is even more scary)


So then you're solution is to hide or run? Lose all your carefully planned and stored preps? Go from the known to the unknown?

If you run, you will CONTINUE running....and you will eventually die....and pretty quickly. Most of those who will be after your preps (and daughters) will really be cowards. They will run themselves if they meet hard resistance. Kill a few of the leaders in front....from afar...and the rest will retreat in a hurry, despite what the fictional dystopian novels depict.


----------



## stevekozak

SittingElf said:


> So then you're solution is to hide or run? Lose all your carefully planned and stored preps? Go from the known to the unknown?
> 
> If you run, you will CONTINUE running....and you will eventually die....and pretty quickly. Most of those who will be after your preps (and daughters) will really be cowards. They will run themselves if they meet hard resistance. Kill a few of the leaders in front....from afar...and the rest will retreat in a hurry, despite what the fictional dystopian novels depict.


M118R's premise seemed to be that all his real preps were on an island somewhere, and in the face of invaders, he was going to stay back on the mainland somewhere and shoot said invaders while his family retreats to the BOL. This would, in his estimation, draw fire to him. My question was whether or not it might be wiser to withdraw with his family, if possible, instead of engaging in needless combat that might get him killed and unable to further protect his family. My second point stands as written. It has always amused me that gungho folks on the internet always believe that their enemies will cut and run or be less skilful. The truth is that many very bad people are very skilful. Or lucky, which is worse.


----------



## Viper

Since we are talking SHTF here....I'll keep my opinion's to myself. Ok , maybe I won't . Shoot/ don't shoot, every situation is fluid. Posting about it here, *in the manner I just waded through*, is needless chest thumping and reeks of poser shit. So, I prefer to let my "how far is too far" remain close held information.


----------



## M118LR

stevekozak said:


> M118R's premise seemed to be that all his real preps were on an island somewhere, and in the face of invaders, he was going to stay back on the mainland somewhere and shoot said invaders while his family retreats to the BOL. This would, in his estimation, draw fire to him. My question was whether or not it might be wiser to withdraw with his family, if possible, instead of engaging in needless combat that might get him killed and unable to further protect his family. My second point stands as written. It has always amused me that gungho folks on the internet always believe that their enemies will cut and run or be less skilful. The truth is that many very bad people are very skilful. Or lucky, which is worse.


Pretty close, my family would be on the boat, I'd be atop the fort's parapet, on the island. The passage to open Ocean is a little less than 2000 yards.

Starting with question 2: All 6 of the folks in the scope are younger,faster,stronger, and have a combined cyclic rate at least 6 times greater than mine. So they are already "Badder" then I am. They are so bad that I in fact I don't want them to have contact with my family as they extract on the boat.

About question 1: Perhaps the concept of standoff range isn't included in your questioning. The reason to engage prior to the folks in the scope getting within effective range of their firearms, is so that I don't have to be killed defending my family. In a fair fight at the effective range of their weapons my survival is slim at best. By drawing them to me I am diverting them from my family, allowing more time for safe passage to the open sea. Warriors aren't martyrs, I have a calculated risk of how much time I can buy before being compromised. Then they need to track me within the depths of the inlet to reengage me should I make them pay enough to continue the conflict.

On to post #99. If I withdrew with my family there would be no way to divert threats to their passage, during their passage. In a perfect Extraction, there would be no need for combat, but as I have given you the "folks in the scope" Murphy has already invaded perfect planning and preparation, now it is time to deal with the problem. The reality of the matter is that if you have something that others need they shall take it from you. If they can't take it from you they will connive a method to steal it from you. Barter only begins once the other options have been proven to fail.

Only the rocks live forever. Before you place a finger on a rifle/firearm you better be at peace with the fact that you probably shall lose your life based upon your choice in open conflict. You can be as amused as you like stevekozak about those gungho folks that have actually performed those tasks. Until you have lived with a price on your head, for the task that you preform, and have the X on your back every minute that you are on the Battlefield as a PRIMARY TARGET you have no concept of what you so eloquently stated. Here is a bit of Truth that you might need to mull over, I have survived all of those very skilled bad people that I have shared a Battlefield with for many decades. Perhaps tomorrow I shall be engaged with the Him/Her that's lucky or skillful enough to take the round from my rifle and craft their own hogs-tooth necklace! But you better be prepared to pay that price if you intend to exercise your Right to Bear Arms. If you can't come to grips with losing your life because you choose to carry a firearm, don't carry one and depend upon the scraps from others tables like all the other refugees. People that don't have any clue that they have signed their own DEATH WARRANT by electing to Bear Arms, suddenly get an education the second the first round comes their way. If you are dealing with a professional, usually you only get the chance to rethink your choice when the person beside has paid for their lack of forethought.


----------



## M118LR

Now for a bit of nostalgia. Ever looked down the tube of one of these Denton.


----------



## Mad Trapper

Scope is mounted too high unless on that setup you can still use opens. Put it close to barrel.

Does not seem to be match conditioned (see rear sight) so why not stick to irons and/or upgrade if you want range?


----------



## M118LR

Mad Trapper said:


> Scope is mounted too high unless on that setup you can still use opens. Put it close to barrel.
> 
> Does not seem to be match conditioned (see rear sight) so why not stick to irons and/or upgrade if you want range?


I'll let the other folks that have used one explain it to you Mad Trapper. Perhaps a quick History Lesson on the purpose,use of the scope, and it's effectiveness would be in order. Better you look it up yourself than if I spoon feed you.


----------



## Mad Trapper

Have put a magazine full of ammo through the same big hole at 100, 20 shots, < 2 MOA w/factory Remington/UMC. It gets lots better with match or handloads.

I used the bigger brother of the M40 scope, a redfield in 6 X 18. I like old school shit.


----------



## M118LR

Last I peeked thru the M40 sported the Premier Reticles USMC 8541 Day Telescope. Now that's a little Old School vs Leupolds M2010 Scope, but it will suffice IMHO.


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## Mad Trapper

How about a 80s Nelson built NM with original USGI parts? vs PLASTIC?

I have the silk purse, you might have the sows ear


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## M118LR

Not exactly USN/USMC certified. (M25) Currently I run a Supermatch with a 5-25 Steiner MSR for allot of my mid-range shooting.


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## Mad Trapper

So how does it shoot? 

Seen a lot of rifles that won't do the deed.

I like my stiener binos, it lets my friends see the tipups on the other side of the lake I'm already running too bare eye.




Well, later.......on

I'm still partial to my pre-64 M70 06 that has that old Redfield 3 X 9 on top. Shoots better than M1As Iv'e seen

A M700 in 222 Rem, with a 6 X 20 leupold, it will hit a dime, every time at 200 if the wind is not bad.


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## 8301

M118LR said:


> Just imagine that this summer that 17 year old teenager of yours would turn 18 and have reserved seating on the first flight to Nam as an American Fighting Man. Heaven forbid that Uncle Sam would have found in him the spark of a SNIPER! Sure would change your conversations at the house wouldn't it?
> 
> POKE the FROG.....POKE.......POKE.


My 17 yr old son will never be in the military although he wants to join. Brain injury at age 6, five months in ICU, and now he has a few additional challenges. We hoped for years he would recover enough to be able to have choices like the military. But by your TOE you would shoot him for fun.

Yea, you're a real hero.

Roach Spray please.


----------



## Mad Trapper

foolami said:


> my 17 yr old son will never be in the military although he wants to join. Brain injury at age 6, five months in icu, and now he has a few additional challenges. But by your toe you would shoot him for fun.
> 
> Yea, you're a real hero.
> 
> Roach spray please.


wtf? Too short!!! What the ****!!!


----------



## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> My 17 yr old son will never be in the military although he wants to join. Brain injury at age 6, five months in ICU, and now he has a few additional challenges. We hoped for years he would recover enough to be able to have choices like the military. But by your TOE you would shoot him for fun.
> 
> Yea, you're a real hero.
> 
> Roach Spray please.


Just think of how long I have done the deeds so that you could Mollycoddle the young Lad. Yet you still would turn him loose armed when roving bands of armed marauders terrorized the countryside. Is it his misery or yours that would end should he be at the wrong place at the wrong time?

But I have waged War for both your and his rights, yet you dare to admonish me for defending those that have scarified so that I could do the dirty deeds!!

Perhaps you should continue to shutter when America's Finest grab hold of a can of RAID!

No, I'm not a Hero. Hero's usually earn the Silver Star. I've been at a few of their gravesides. Tacked a couple of insignia's onto the pine box. Best I could ever manage was a Bronze Star with a tiny V. But I've never managed to shoot anyone just for fun. So keep him close to your protective web. Wonder what you would do to keep him safe should he stumble into my area during an operational period?

How far would be Too far to keep him from being under my glass FoolAmI???????????


----------



## M118LR

Mad Trapper said:


> So how does it shoot?


Better than an M110 at the 1000 yard KD Range. But there could be another reason why the M110 is being phased out. Just was wondering what was the last year you qualified Expert Level at the 1000 yard KD range?


----------



## Mad Trapper

M118LR said:


> Better than an M110 at the 1000 yard KD Range. But there could be another reason why the M110 is being phased out. Just was wondering what was the last year you qualified Expert Level at the 1000 yard KD range?


Not a 1000 yd range, in range.

But I out shoot all my Marine buddies that qualified expert. Did that before and after they entered the service. My best friend before service , shot expert, and I still outshoot him.

Here 500yds is a long range/shot. 165 gr is fine in 308, or 180 in a 06. I'll never see game at those distances.

Better to practice at useable distances in practical situations; that would be hunting as much as you can.

Why did USA have great infantry? They had farm boy hunter enlistees!! Not any more sorry to say...........


----------



## Farva

M118LR said:


> Just think of how long I have done the deeds so that you could Mollycoddle the young Lad. Yet you still would turn him loose armed when roving bands of armed marauders terrorized the countryside. Is it his misery or yours that would end should he be at the wrong place at the wrong time?
> 
> But I have waged War for both your and his rights, yet you dare to admonish me for defending those that have scarified so that I could do the dirty deeds!!
> 
> Perhaps you should continue to shutter when America's Finest grab hold of a can of RAID!
> 
> No, I'm not a Hero. Hero's usually earn the Silver Star. I've been at a few of their gravesides. Tacked a couple of insignia's onto the pine box. Best I could ever manage was a Bronze Star with a tiny V. But I've never managed to shoot anyone just for fun. So keep him close to your protective web. Wonder what you would do to keep him safe should he stumble into my area during an operational period?
> 
> How far would be Too far to keep him from being under my glass FoolAmI???????????


You sure you wanted to say that with your outside voice Snipey?


----------



## M118LR

Do you think that I would have retracted it? Is that why you bothered to quote it? Farva!

How far is Too Far to keep your own flesh and blood out of my glass FoolAmI? What would you be willing or capable of to keep you and yours out of harms way. Roach spray is ineffective at 2000 yards. 

You have been quite vocal in condemning the lengths that I would be willing and able to go to in order that I would protect mine, have you asked yours what their opinion of how your limitations shall effect them? I do believe you asked a similar question of me twice, I did have enough Honor to answer you truthfully. What say you FoolAmI?


----------



## Farva

M118LR said:


> Do you think that I would have retracted it? Is that why you bothered to quote it? Farva!
> 
> How far is Too Far to keep your own flesh and blood out of my glass FoolAmI? What would you be willing or capable of to keep you and yours out of harms way. Roach spray is ineffective at 2000 yards.
> 
> You have been quite vocal in condemning the lengths that I would be willing and able to go to in order that I would protect mine, have you asked yours what their opinion of how your limitations shall effect them? I do believe you asked a similar question of me twice, I did have enough Honor to answer you truthfully. What say you FoolAmI?


None of us have insinuated we'd shoot a disabled kid.


----------



## M118LR

Farva said:


> None of us have insinuated we'd shoot a disabled kid.


Farva, none of us have insinuated that we would arm a mentally disabled 17 year old, in a time of conflict do you really think that the weapon they are holding cares what age or sex the operator is?

But somehow you manage to avoid the crux of the question, How Far would you go to protect/defend those entrusting their lives to you? How Far is Too Far?


----------



## stevekozak

The OP is getting better and better with time (or with swigs from the bottle)! He is shooting people at over a mile now. I cant tell if he is Bob Lee Swagger or John Rourke......


----------



## ffparamedic

He's an idiotic moron that doesn't have a clue of when to stfu. If he was a tenth of what he thinks he is he'd be world renowned, he's more or less an assclown. He's proven that much.


----------



## AquaHull

15er's


----------



## SecretPrepper

To answer the question in short. To far is just beyond the shooters effective range. Adding the real word, the situation will determine "to far". After 11 pages it is clear you are the "threat" in this situation and the 1 that should be seen as the enemy.


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## 8301

You guys remember the little kid who poked at people just to cause a stir, The spoiled brat with the dripping nose who just wanted to irritate people for attention. 

Apparently M118LR just never matured and still likes to poke because he enjoys the reaction and attention.
poor bug.


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## MisterMills357

Here are my thoughts, they would be allowed to within 50 feet of me/my house. 
Then I would challenge them and they better respond with some sensible answers. And they had better halt, or I will open up.
And, I would begin to use tactical movements, i.e., I would go after them. But they would not walk right up to my house.

I guess that I have answered "How Close Could They Get?" But, at 400 yards, there is no way to justify deadly force. 
Even at 100 yards, they are not a danger, if they start closing in, that is a different story. If they start shooting, then they are a deadly enemy.


----------



## M118LR

AquaHull said:


> 15er's


Although 5.56 mm rifles have an effective range of 450-600 meters, the M855 bullet's performance falls off sharply beyond 300 meters. The ranges are even shorter for short-barreled carbines. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO)

Cartridge	Maximum effective range[37]
7.62×39mm	600 m
5.56×45mm	600 m[38]
7.62×51mm NATO (.308 Winchester)	800 m
7.62×54mm R	800 m
.30-06 Springfield	800 m
7 mm Remington Magnum	900-1,100 m
.300 Winchester Magnum	900-1,200 m
.338 Lapua Magnum	1,200-1,500 m
12.7×99mm NATO (.50 BMG)
12.7×108mm (.50 Russian)	1,500-2,000 m
14.5×114mm	1,800-2,300 m

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle#Maximum_effective_range)

SecrectPrepper, Shooters maximum effective range and cartridge maximum range can be two distinctly different distances, with the cartridges maximum effective range usually being the greater of the two.

Good Luck to You MisterMills357.

Hope those reduced to name calling can develop a cognizant point of contention.


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## Mad Trapper

A two year old can post drivel on Wiki. Not a valid nor reliable reference. Please quote reliable sources.


----------



## SittingElf

Mad Trapper said:


> A two year old can post drivel on Wiki. Not a valid nor reliable reference. Please quote reliable sources.


From someone who has practical testing...and a little older than two years....ME!

Maximum ACCURATE ranges with >75% hits to 10" steel:

9mm Pistol - 30-40m (Glock 26)
.40 SW Pistol - 40-50m (Browning Pro40)
300BO SBR Subsonic - 200-300M (PWS MK109 9")
6.8 SPC AR Long Rifle- 600-800m (Barrett Rec7 II)
6.5 Creedmore Long Rifle 800-1000m (Ruger Precision Rifle - Custom Barrel)
300 WinMag Long Rifle 1000-1200m (Barrett 98B Tactical)
22LR Long Rifle - 250-300m (Savage Mark I)
22LR Competition Pistol - 75-100M (Barretta Competition)
12 Gauge - 60m (Remington 870 Tactical)

Doesn't matter what the published ranges are, whether on Wiki's, books, or websites. What matters is what YOU can do with a given round in a given weapon.


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## M118LR

Nope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag I'll decide what I reference when I post, but your concern is noted. If this was a technical thread instead of theoretical I might be more inclined to acquiesce to your request.........MIGHT???........ Doubtful, at least until you learn the rules of physiological reciprocity. :77:


----------



## SecretPrepper

M118LR said:


> Although 5.56 mm rifles have an effective range of 450-600 meters, the M855 bullet's performance falls off sharply beyond 300 meters. The ranges are even shorter for short-barreled carbines. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO)
> 
> Cartridge	Maximum effective range[37]
> 7.62×39mm	600 m
> 5.56×45mm	600 m[38]
> 7.62×51mm NATO (.308 Winchester)	800 m
> 7.62×54mm R	800 m
> .30-06 Springfield	800 m
> 7 mm Remington Magnum	900-1,100 m
> .300 Winchester Magnum	900-1,200 m
> .338 Lapua Magnum	1,200-1,500 m
> 12.7×99mm NATO (.50 BMG)
> 12.7×108mm (.50 Russian)	1,500-2,000 m
> 14.5×114mm	1,800-2,300 m
> 
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle#Maximum_effective_range)
> 
> SecrectPrepper, Shooters maximum effective range and cartridge maximum range can be two distinctly different distances, with the cartridges maximum effective range usually being the greater of the two.
> 
> Good Luck to You MisterMills357.
> 
> Hope those reduced to name calling can develop a cognizant point of contention.


Right, and most (51% or more) of the deer hunters I know have rifles with a max range far grater than their own. That is why I stand with the shooters Max range and if you can't hit it you shouldn't take the shot. This I believe we agree on.


----------



## M118LR

SecretPrepper said:


> Right, and most (51% or more) of the deer hunters I know have rifles with a max range far grater than their own. That is why I stand with the shooters Max range and if you can't hit it you shouldn't take the shot. This I believe we agree on.


Solid logic! 
If you can't shoot it to the distance it was designed to reach, either practice until you can or leave it behind during an open conflict. Grey men (refugees) live allot longer than poor shots with long range rifles during an armed conflict. SittingElf's ten inch target is a very good indicator of what the shooters maximum range is. Now all I need to find is someone young enough that it won't take most of the day to set and retrieve practice targets. Never bothered to calculate the percentage required to reach the Expert Level SittingElf, but I have a feeling that 75% won't get the task done.


----------



## shooter

The only thing I can say is why give away your position. If your alone you are best avoiding contact, and getting out of harms way. If you have a small group of people why risk everyone unless you have to. There are a lot of unknowns. 1st off whats behind that wall. There could be 25 armed people behind it and you just stirred up the hornets nest. Or maybe there is a group you can't see behind you that is not related to the other group but when they hear shooting start they are going to assume all parties are hostile. Even under the best case people in the area now know there is someone with a gun who is shooting at things. 

Plus what if those armed people are looking to trade supplies? Or have a doctor in the group that could be useful for a sick or injured friend/family member. its better to wait and evaluate the group then just open fire. 

Now if I saw them murder or rape people, ambush a car ect, I might be more willing to be aggressive, but if I don't have a high chance of success and some type of support I am better avoiding conflict. 

While I would always use caution, I would wait till I had to open fire. After all if I never shoot and they walk buy and never know I am there I have the advantage. And if I am with a larger group and we choose not to shoot till we have to we might be able to get supplies in trades or even add more people to our group allowing for safety in numbers down the road. after all even if its WOL at some people we need to rebuild. And if its short term I I will probably have to justify my actions in a court of law.


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## M118LR

Thank Ya'll for your input. 
In recap. The object is to extract the family clan if the Rule of Law has completely broken down. They have almost a 2000 yard passage to the open sea which can be controlled from Here:
View attachment 15015


I considered it tactically advantageous to separate from the main body, on the watercraft, to divert any possible hostiles during the transit period. In so doing I figured that it would require a weapon of this magnitude to cover the distance of the passage.
View attachment 15016


I have used this firearm to near it's fullest capability in the past. Unfortunately all my plans where met by Mr & Mrs Murphy, when these guys showed up.
View attachment 15017


I choose to remove the "Folks in the scope" from the scenario and allow my family safe passage to the open sea, and a complete extract from the Kaos.
SecretPrepper put the X on the spot in my opinion.
SittingElf gave you the target size required to make such decisions a reality. 
I've given you a chance to reflect upon your current Firearms choice, Skills, and Life or Death Decisions without any harm to anything or anyone. Hope it gave you at least a pause to consider.

I awoke today to the sounds of Church Bells drifting across the inlet. The sights and sounds of a seaside Free American Community once again greeted my senses. I didn't have the stale scent of parched sand, or the discordant call to prayer from atop a mosque ringing in my ears, most of the folks within earshot even spoke English, so I took some time to Thank My God and my fellow servicemen for allowing me to have this day. Thank Ya'll.


----------



## 8301

Still espousing your trivia?
Sounds like you've spent too much time watching tv.


----------



## M118LR

I Thank You for your input FoolAmI, but for future reference I don't believe I shall be putting much credence in any of your conclusions. Our life experiences seem far to divergent and your perspective seems a bit to narrow for US to not butt heads. Hopefully I shall not need to reduce my intellect to level that I can only call you names or cast dispersion upon your integrity during a Theoretical Exercise. As to what has or shall happen in real life I wish you and yours only the best. US Navy Frogman, Naval Aircrew, Retired. OUT!


----------



## 8301

M118LR said:


> I Thank You for your input FoolAmI, but for future reference I don't believe I shall be putting much credence in any of your conclusions. Our life experiences seem far to divergent and your perspective seems a bit to narrow for US to not butt heads. Hopefully I shall not need to reduce my intellect to level that I can only call you names or cast dispersion upon your integrity during a Theoretical Exercise. As to what has or shall happen in real life I wish you and yours only the best. US Navy Frogman, Naval Aircrew, Retired. OUT!


I just realized something,,,, You're staying glued on this fantasy thread of yours aren't you? This is your tv dream thread isn't it? Most snot nosed boys dream about girls but you dream about shooting innocent people at 800 yards don't you?

poor bug,,, got Raid on your mind?

P.S. You never answered the question I asked about 100 posts back... What do these people you claim to be protecting think about you shooting innocent people 400+ yards away? Their honest opinion, not words you put in their mouth.
Do they even know you fantasize about shooting innocent people in the back?


----------



## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> I just realized something,,,, You're staying glued on this fantasy thread of yours aren't you? This is your tv dream thread isn't it? Most snot nosed boys dream about girls but you dream about shooting innocent people at 800 yards don't you?
> 
> poor bug,,, got Raid on your mind?


Parting Shot. 
Unfortunately FoolAmI shooting people at 800 yards pails in comparison with the reality of my longest EKIA. Luckily I never questioned the matter of their innocence. But it is not those that I have shot that enter my dreams, it is the images of those that I wasn't allowed to pull the trigger upon and their deeds that haunt my nightmares. I only hope that you and yours can sleep peacefully with visions of sugarplums dancing in your heads, that shall be enough to convince me that my families sacrifices where worth the effort. They are the ones that paid the price so that I could do what I did Best. No matter what else I say or do in the future, I owe a debt of Honor to the family I left behind while I selfishly served the interests of others. (Perhaps even Mankind) Yet I ask no forbearance for myself, but I shall not acquiesce another nanosecond of sacrifice on their behalf. I apologize to the other members of this forum if I in anyway offend. For the deeds I have done are unchangeable, and I have done them for what reasons I believed to be For God & Country, Yet I Shall Answer only to the Man Above and my fellow servicemen for any actions that I have taken.......


----------



## M118LR

M118LR said:


> I have no reason to ask their opinion, the only finger on the trigger of my rifle is mine. The only one that needs to live with the images inside my scope is me. The only opinion of consequence at that moment shall be mine. Hence the mantra of "It's not your choice".
> 
> As to the squirt gun. Refugees don't carry rifles! The only reason you have to bear arms is to use them. If you don't use them as far away and as well as another, then you chose poorly!!!!!


As to all your additions: Short memory?


----------



## Butler Ford

What the heck, I'll play. You have the first, no problem. They are going to stop to see what's going on w/#1, you get the second, now they know they are under fire and start movement to cover or at least concealment. You are good at your job and get the third. That leaves three that have a pretty good idea of where you are, they unass the area and bring help or make a plan for the three of them to try to flank you. We acknowledged that your good, you find the two on the right flank but the third kills your wife before you find him.
With your description of the situation, I'd let'em pass if I could.
BF


----------



## M118LR

Butler Ford said:


> What the heck, I'll play. You have the first, no problem. They are going to stop to see what's going on w/#1, you get the second, now they know they are under fire and start movement to cover or at least concealment. You are good at your job and get the third. That leaves three that have a pretty good idea of where you are, they unass the area and bring help or make a plan for the three of them to try to flank you. We acknowledged that your good, you find the two on the right flank but the third kills your wife before you find him.
> With your description of the situation, I'd let'em pass if I could.
> BF


Thank You BF, but I don't believe that you took into consideration how difficult it is to shoot while swimming.


----------



## 8301

I was down in your area last month for work, St. Augustine has a great park to walk around. But having a major body of water as part of your defensive perimeter makes ambushing people walking down the road 400 yds away on the other side of the water even more unjustifiable.

Just face it, you're just a wanna-be with an over active imagination and little or no moral judgement. Clinically that makes you a psychopathic personality with low self esteem.

Please get some help before you do like that Uber driver in Michigan and shoot people for no reason. People like you are why they want to take our guns away.


----------



## M118LR

FoolAmI said:


> I was down in your area last month for work, St. Augustine has a great park to walk around. But having a major body of water as part of your defensive perimeter makes ambushing people walking down the road 400 yds away on the other side of the water even more unjustifiable.
> 
> Just face it, you're just a wanna-be with an over active imagination and little or no moral judgement. Clinically that makes you a psychopathic personality with low self esteem.
> 
> Please get some help before you do like that Uber driver in Michigan and shoot people for no reason. People like you are why they want to take our guns away.


Still name calling and defaming FoolAmI. Don't get to worked up, I'm sure that I'll be one of the last people that our government takes away firearms from. Perhaps some of the resident Devil Dogs could sing you a song about the difference between a rifle and a gun. Once again your conclusion is completely baseless, unsupportable, and incorrect. If you like a little clinical perspective, try reading the Commanding Officer requirements for Sniper candidates. That should be enlightening, but the narrow minded won't even take what little time it takes to read such a short piece of literature. So I expect to hear from you again shortly with more dribble and rot.


----------



## bigwheel

Kindly knock off with the spatting. Give each other a shirtless cyber hug and let us return to being nice. Thanks.


----------



## Jp4GA

NotTooProudToHide said:


> There are multiple reasons armed men could be on your property in a shtf situation.
> 
> First and foremost the scenario you present, they are marauders, rapists, murderers, all around bad guys.
> 
> Secondly it could be people that are scavenging for food and supplies and they have no clue that your home or who even owns the property
> 
> Thirdly it could be law enforcement//military although they would probably be easily identified by uniform, badges, and or insignia.
> 
> Fourthly it could be other emergency personnel doing search and rescue, fire/ems or utility workers. Given the situation they might choose to carry even if its not authorized.


I agree with the above... in a SHTF situation people are not going to honor property lines when roaming looking for food, water and shelter. They will just be looking for anything to help them into the next moment.


----------



## Medic33

you see that way over there yah, that's too far.


----------



## M118LR

Medic33 said:


> you see that way over there yah, that's too far.


At my age, if I can see it without binoculars, it's probably not far enough away. :lol:


----------



## Grim Reality

This thread needs to end.

Grim


----------



## M118LR

M118LR said:


> Thank Ya'll for your input.
> In recap. The object is to extract the family clan if the Rule of Law has completely broken down. They have almost a 2000 yard passage to the open sea which can be controlled from Here:
> View attachment 15015
> 
> 
> I considered it tactically advantageous to separate from the main body, on the watercraft, to divert any possible hostiles during the transit period. In so doing I figured that it would require a weapon of this magnitude to cover the distance of the passage.
> View attachment 15016
> 
> 
> I have used this firearm to near it's fullest capability in the past. Unfortunately all my plans where met by Mr & Mrs Murphy, when these guys showed up.
> View attachment 15017
> 
> 
> I choose to remove the "Folks in the scope" from the scenario and allow my family safe passage to the open sea, and a complete extract from the Kaos.
> SecretPrepper put the X on the spot in my opinion.
> SittingElf gave you the target size required to make such decisions a reality.
> I've given you a chance to reflect upon your current Firearms choice, Skills, and Life or Death Decisions without any harm to anything or anyone. Hope it gave you at least a pause to consider.
> 
> I awoke today to the sounds of Church Bells drifting across the inlet. The sights and sounds of a seaside Free American Community once again greeted my senses. I didn't have the stale scent of parched sand, or the discordant call to prayer from atop a mosque ringing in my ears, most of the folks within earshot even spoke English, so I took some time to Thank My God and my fellow servicemen for allowing me to have this day. Thank Ya'll.


Figured that this had ended it once before, but I'll try again.


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## Robb_b

At 400 I'm gonna hold fire and watch them. They are armed but at that range they are likely to never know your there and I wouldn't be willing to compromise my position. I'd rather conceal myself and shoot when necessary vs. taking a long range shot and giving away mine and possibly my parties position. The best way to stay alive often is to stay hidden.


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## M118LR

The best way to stay alive is to end any opposition before it has a chance to materialize! If you are too squeamish to accept reality and act upon it, you shall end your days as nothing more than a causality! History my friends just happens to be written by the Victorious! The reason you choose to bear arms is to act upon your God given rights, forfeit them and you have chose to die a thousand deaths! JMHO. 

Kill them all and let God sort it out, She/He hasn't made a mistake yet! JMHO.


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## AquaHull

Robb_b said:


> At 400 I'm gonna hold fire and watch them. They are armed but at that range they are likely to never know your there and I wouldn't be willing to compromise my position. I'd rather conceal myself and shoot when necessary vs. taking a long range shot and giving away mine and possibly my parties position. The best way to stay alive often is to stay hidden.


At 400 yards , you are on my property, which you are uninvited onto. That also means you are a Trespasser.


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## Medic33

who care what you might do 
god gave you two hands but he didn't tell you how to use them.
look over at the Vaseline hummm.


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## M118LR

Whatever floats your boat Medic33!


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