# Organized Religion - Problems



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I have seen a few people post that they are against or have problems with Organized religion

I really do not understand the issue

Organized Religion (I am only talking Christian) is no different then many other groups.

There is a leader(s)
A hierarchy 
Organized meetings
Schedule of events
Long range goals
Mutual ideals
monetary collections for support


sounds like the elks, lodge, or other groups

So is the problem with the fact it is organized (The early believers had organized churches) or is the problem with the people or with the fact that attending an organized place of worship makes YOU accountable....

What do people mean when the say "I do not like Organized Religion" and is it valid

I am thinking about writing a paper/article on this topic so feel free to defend your ideas


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

I read this post, left , come back ,thought about it and came to the conclusion it is here just to stir the pot. No matter what you post it is going to piss somebody off.JMHO.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

In organized religion they use periods and question marks at the end of their sentences.

That makes it easier to understand them.

As far as the rest of it.......I think it's the monetary collections that do the most harm.

The money always becomes the problem and a barrier to true spirituality.


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

If i could e-mail Jesus right now i would.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

My comments *aren't* about Christianity only. Nor do they represent my whole feelings on organized religion, but the question wasn't about the benefits it was about what we didn't like about it.

Organized religion is one way, that people segregate themselves into groups - which means there's an in-group, and everyone else is out-group. Humans do not have a history strong in understanding and tolerant co-existence with out-groups. We tend to demonize the Others, to devalue them, to see reasons why we should have more authority so they don't ruin things, to misinterpret them in light of our own biases. Seeing as religion is about the Big Truths, people who group up under it tend to be less accepting of 'wrongness' because, as they see it, the stakes are high. (Not a whole lot of people ready to kill or legislate on behalf of a football team affiliation, for example.

I think populations are better off with fewer points of separation, less perception of Us vs. Them.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

You are never going to remove in-groups and out-groups. It doesn't matter if the groups are religious or not. It doesn't matter if the groups are created by race, religion, nationality, football teams, motorcycles, politics or if it is butter side up or down.


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## scramble4a5 (Nov 1, 2012)

M


Maine-Marine said:


> I have seen a few people post that they are against or have problems with Organized religion
> 
> I really do not understand the issue
> 
> ...


I would also add it is voluntary. Nobody marches you off to worship every Sunday.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Spice said:


> My comments *aren't* about Christianity only. Nor do they represent my whole feelings on organized religion, but the question wasn't about the benefits it was about what we didn't like about it.
> 
> Organized religion is one way, that people segregate themselves into groups - which means there's an in-group, and everyone else is out-group. Humans do not have a history strong in understanding and tolerant co-existence with out-groups. We tend to demonize the Others, to devalue them, to see reasons why we should have more authority so they don't ruin things, to misinterpret them in light of our own biases. Seeing as religion is about the Big Truths, people who group up under it tend to be less accepting of 'wrongness' because, as they see it, the stakes are high. (Not a whole lot of people ready to kill or legislate on behalf of a football team affiliation, for example.
> 
> I think populations are better off with fewer points of separation, less perception of Us vs. Them.


SO I have to ask.. what is wrong with separating yourself into groups based on mutual ideals.... The Shriners, elks, lodge, Churches, etc... do many projects that help NON-Members

For those that DO NOT attend - what downside is there

As to being accepting of wrongness - here is another thing I want to write a paper on... acceptance... When you say "people who group up under it tend to be less accepting of 'wrongness' .. what exactly do you mean... What would we have to do to be view as accepting... Accepting like allowing them to come to service - No REAL Christian church would no allow a person to attend based on any sin... (they may not let them be an elder or a voting member) but they wold not stop gays, drunks, murderers, liars, cheats, etc from going to service...

So what does this acceptance look like


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

My view on "Organized Religion" is probably different than most. It has to do with the "modernization" of Jesus Christ through man-made and man-managed Churches. Anytime you get man involved, by nature, it has the potential to end up FUBAR'ed. 

I stopped going to church because I witnessed way too many hypocrits, outliars and sinners ready to cast out others for the same things that they did...and do it with an evil nicely dressed lipstick smile. 

I am well aware of me being a sinful, alcohol drinkin', potty mouthed son of a gun.... who is also a believer in Jesus Christ as my savior. I know what I do both right and wrong and try more often to do the right thing as defined by the New Testament teachings of the Bible or through prayer. 

Many times I choose the wrong path but more often than not, I choose the right one...except for my proclivity to curse and drink...which I do willingly.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> I read this post, left , come back ,thought about it and came to the conclusion it is here just to stir the pot. No matter what you post it is going to piss somebody off.JMHO.


I am a little insulted. My intent was not to stir the pot.. it was to help me write a paper. Getting others views makes me re-look at and rethink their thoughts... it helps me to either defend or change my ideas...

I am not the smartest person on this forum (Close but I thinking Slippy and Mish have me beat) so I like to get others take on topics.

and frankly, I do not mind pissing people off...even if i wrote about the proper method of putting rice into mylar i run the risk of pissing somebody off


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Slippy said:


> I stopped going to church because I witnessed way too many hypocrites, outliars and sinners ready to cast out others for the same things that they did...and do it with an evil nicely dressed lipstick smile.


So I have to ask.. have you stopped going to walmart, the grocery, the post office....etc... do you belong to other groups, elks, lodge, etc....

In several decades of church life... I have only seen 2 people kicked out... it was for adultery (a husband left his wife for another member) and they had been talked to, taken to the elders, and then they were asked to leave unless they changed. The mans wife (the wronged party) continued to attend


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

What is unorganized religion? Is that the definition of a person who believes but does not attend church services?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> I am a little insulted. My intent was not to stir the pot.. it was to help me write a paper. Getting others views makes me re-look at and rethink their thoughts... it helps me to either defend or change my ideas...
> 
> I am not the smartest person on this forum (Close but I thinking Slippy and Mish have me beat) so I like to get others take on topics.
> 
> and frankly, I do not mind pissing people off...even if i wrote about the proper method of putting rice into mylar i run the risk of pissing somebody off


Regardless of the reason for starting this thread, don't you think it is getting dangerously close to bending a rule?

I've responded in the thread mainly to let it be know that it is being monitored very closely and not that I think it is a good thing or that it is not pushing up real close to one of the rules of the board. A rule intended to keep people from unnecessarily going at each others' throats.

As long as everyone discusses this is a calm, clinical manner, all is good. If it goes south, it will be shut and any more such threads will be removed.

This should be an interesting experiment.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

EDIT for the "Rules" sake.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> What is unorganized religion? Is that the definition of a person who believes but does not attend church services?


I always ask.. so is unorganized religion better?


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Denton said:


> Regardless of the reason for starting this thread, don't you think it is getting dangerously close to bending a rule?
> 
> I've responded in the thread mainly to let it be know that it is being monitored very closely and not that I think it is a good thing or that it is not pushing up real close to one of the rules of the board. A rule intended to keep people from unnecessarily going at each others' throats.
> 
> ...


It was not my intent to bend the rules. I can not stop other people from break rules... look at (members name removed)...he took a dislike to me and regardless of what I posted - he took after me on every thread...

and frankly - I think one or two moderators view spirited debate as a bad thing...


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> So I have to ask.. have you stopped going to walmart, the grocery, the post office....etc... do you belong to other groups, elks, lodge, etc....
> 
> In several decades of church life... I have only seen 2 people kicked out... it was for adultery (a husband left his wife for another member) and they had been talked to, taken to the elders, and then they were asked to leave unless they changed. The mans wife (the wronged party) continued to attend


...if you count my visits to Walmart and Church over the past 10 years, I would say they are pretty even! I found that my demeanor and well being is about the same after I leave Walmart or some of the churches that Mrs Slippy has dragged me to!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> It was not my intent to bend the rules. I can not stop other people from break rules... look at (members name removed)...he took a dislike to me and regardless of what I posted - he took after me on every thread...
> 
> and frankly - I think one or two moderators view spirited debate as a bad thing...


Frankly, I'll be shooting you a PM.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Theocracies have always served me well in the us. Gov, public and nfp have been pits for years, while private member organizations have been trying to preserve a higher and more authentic standard for their own. I'm pretty immune to the stupid, petty, jealous etc but there is always someone in any group over about a dozen, to make you aware some pinhead is after you for some reason. 
Got a Good church? Be a good person and think about that gutter, where the membership badge is terminal and the rules ruthless, stupid and savage.
But the big big difference is that I am used to professional orders that are more like another kind of corporation or military, just run by people who are religious. I don't know how many priests of any kind really believe anything? But I know they all believe that system and work that brings every day to a close as well as anyone might have hoped for.
I also think people try to idealize religion as a "cure" that will make them stop being lazy and apathetic - but religion is not really (poor paul) a "bot" thing for herding pimpletons as much as it is supposed to be a power thing for creating anew people. Hence, the majority tend to sit in idle harping the revival and dolphin stories or implode. All they had to say was "be happy! Don't get in trouble! Wooo! It's gonna be great!" - what a waste of a God given day....

(Why do people think the scags want to destroy the boy scouts? High quality male opportunity organization training boys to be more mature, skilled and reliable than trash adults. We can't have capable, functional people of good will who can do anything after all....)


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Forget the PM. I'll view this as a cultural discussion as the rule is written as it is, now.

You are also correct in that you cannot be liable for how others respond to your thread.

Carry on.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> I always ask.. so is unorganized religion better?


If we are using that definition as an example I will say that neither is better than the other on a personal level. As long as you believe that is what counts. However, look at all the good that has come from organized religion. Mission trips, helping the needy, community service, etc. Not many unorganized religious folks are able to do these things for financial reasons.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> I always ask.. so is unorganized religion better?


I believe the bible points out that church is for fellowship among believers. Start putting much more than helping each other on that and it's getting slippery...


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Slippy said:


> ...if you count my visits to Walmart and Church over the past 10 years, I would say they are pretty even! I found that my demeanor and well being is about the same after I leave Walmart or some of the churches that Mrs Slippy has dragged me to!


Classic... lol...


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Well churches are a bit of a mixed bag for me. I've been in a bunch of them and joined one. Was a unique place where I felt really close to the Lord. The preacher was a little hunch backed guy who had been a Southern Baptist Preacher for 20 years or so..when he got Baptized in the Holy Spirit and turned into what most folks would call a Charismatic..i.e. Bapticostal. He had no doctrinal axes to grind. He preached Jesus and love...and gave out a written guarantee to never preach over 15-20 mins at a stretch which meant on Sunday morning a person could escape in time to beat the Church of Christ folks to the cheap eating places. Music ministry was Southern Gospel. That place rocked. Unfortunately he went to be with the Lord and the church disbanded. If I find another like it..I just might join it.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Arklatex said:


> If we are using that definition as an example I will say that neither is better than the other on a personal level. As long as you believe that is what counts. However, look at all the good that has come from organized religion. Mission trips, helping the needy, community service, etc. Not many unorganized religious folks are able to do these things for financial reasons.


Organized religion. That is a term that has always confused me.

The church that I do not attend (even though I should) teaches the Bible and encourages reading and studying the Bible. The people pray together, fellowship together, and takes care of one another. The tithes field missionaries, maintains the church and the church-owned house where the pastor and his family lives, and pays the pastor to look over his "flock".

I don't view that as "organized" religion, but a congregation of Bible-believing people doing as we were commanded.

One of these days I will drag my sorry butt out of bed and attend, again. It's been so long since I have attended that only a small handful of people will recognize me. :highly_amused:


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

I wish for anyone the very best. Hopefully that mustard seed that got left behind will be the thing people listen for and go along with the most.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

scramble4a5 said:


> M
> 
> I would also add it is voluntary. Nobody marches you off to worship every Sunday.


you obviously weren't in the military in the 60's. If you didn't go to worship sunday morning you were on a detail until noon


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

SARGE7402 said:


> you obviously weren't in the military in the 60's. If you didn't go to worship sunday morning you were on a detail until noon


That wasn't marched off to worship, that was just structuring otherwise unorganized time


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

bigwheel said:


> Well churches are a bit of a mixed bag for me. I've been in a bunch of them and joined one. Was a unique place where I felt really close to the Lord. The preacher was a little hunch backed guy who had been a Southern Baptist Preacher for 20 years or so..when he got Baptized in the Holy Spirit and turned into what most folks would call a Charismatic..i.e. Bapticostal. He had no doctrinal axes to grind. He preached Jesus and love...and gave out a written guarantee to never preach over 15-20 mins at a stretch which meant on Sunday morning a person could escape in time to beat the Church of Christ folks to the cheap eating places. Music ministry was Southern Gospel. That place rocked. Unfortunately he went to be with the Lord and the church disbanded. If I find another like it..I just might join it.


Not that anyone cares...
But after BigWheel's post, which I think was absolutely and simplistically fantastic, I will make this my last visit to this thread...smile on my face and renewed faith in others like me...

God Save this Great Republic!

Slippy out.


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## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

To each his own..I served and fought for this country so everyone could practice whatever they wanted and say what they wanted as long as it didn't hurt anyone else...!


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Denton said:


> You are never going to remove in-groups and out-groups. *It doesn't matter if the groups are religious or not. * It doesn't matter if the groups are created by race, religion, nationality, football teams, motorcycles, politics or if it is butter side up or down.


Oh, it DOES matter if the groups are religious or not.

If religion isn't special and more dangerous......why do you discourage religious discussion???

Obviously, religion is much different.

Humankind is instinctively TRIBAL. You mentioned a few tribes. There are a lot of them.

We may never change that, but we need to try hard to discourage the religious tribes from becoming too powerful and dangerous.

Because they ARE dangerous.......obvious, isn't it?


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

SARGE7402 said:


> you obviously weren't in the military in the 60's. If you didn't go to worship sunday morning you were on a detail until noon


That was only in boot camp in my experience in the 60s.

And thus.....almost everybody went to church. You could sit down and catch your breath.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Frostbite said:


> Oh, it DOES matter if the groups are religious or not.
> 
> If religion isn't special and more dangerous......why do you discourage religious discussion???
> 
> ...


What a load of rubbish. If there is a religion that will be "dangerous" to the insipid and petty, sign me up. 
Does anybody know of an actual "kill a commie for mommie" church we can join? That would be inspired...


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

oddapple said:


> What a load of rubbish. If there is a religion that will be "dangerous" to the insipid and petty, sign me up.
> Does anybody know of an actual "kill a commie for mommie" church we can join? That would be inspired...


Wait. What?

Are you serious?

Do Christians murder abortionists and homosexuals because they don't obey the laws of their superstition?

Think about it.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Frostbite said:


> Wait. What?
> 
> Are you serious?
> 
> ...


No, they do not.

Why are you attempting to do nothing more than start fights?


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Denton said:


> No, they do not.
> 
> Why are you attempting to do nothing more than start fights?


Just stating the facts.

From the article: "Anti-abortion violence is a form of terrorism specifically visited upon people who or places which provide abortion."

"Anti-abortion violence is recognized as a form of Christian terrorism.[6] Some supporters of such violence embrace this designation.[7]"

Anti-abortion violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Frostbite said:


> Just stating the facts.
> 
> Anti-abortion violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


While arguing for Islam, you are here, arguing Christians kill abortionists and homosexuals. You are clearly only interested in starting fights and arguments.

YOU are why forums have to have rules. Stand down from trolling.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Frostbite said:


> Just stating the facts.
> 
> From the article: "Anti-abortion violence is a form of terrorism specifically visited upon people who or places which provide abortion."
> 
> Anti-abortion violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I enjoy what a load of crap you are because it is teaching them. But nothing that comes out of you is worth any more than the yapping across a *** bar on saturday night. A bunch of bs for a silly bunch of bs people.

I think we have been doing this like religion for 10,000 years and what you got are today's vain imaginations. Boy is the poofter crowd going to look bad. Mental and spiritual taffeta don't do well under apocalyptic conditions Carl marx...


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

Going to church and paying your tithe a good person does not make. Period. Pulling crap and showing up on Sunday and dropping money in a tray don't make your bad deeds go unseen or make you forgiven. But for some reason so many people think it does. I've seen the worst of humanity showing up at church and using the title of the church as a mask for their unbelievably horrendous and and damaging behaviour. 

Faith isn't bought nor is it hidden from the people who have seen the face without a mask. Attending a gathering in a building doesn't change anything except the social protections it affords based on the gathering. 

I don't believe in organized religion because the concept is purely man made. Jesus gave a sermon on the mount. There was no tithe and the sins weren't hidden from him. Pulling crap on others asking to be forgiven on Sunday and then continuing to pull crap doesn't make one a Christian. But some how attending that church sure does. I don't see how. 

I have faith. That faith is between the Lord and I and nobody else. Anyone is welcome to challenge that faith anyway they see fit. If someone started freaking out on me trying to tell me my shirt was orange when in fact I was wearing a green shirt I wouldn't waste an iota of thought or time on them. They are obviously unreasonable and thrive on the creation of conflict to induce a sense of injustice to themselves when one reacts in way most would when affronted by threatening words. Only no one can threaten my faith. They aren't part of it and have no say at all in it. 

There are many good people who do right by the word and they go to church. Going to church don't mean a person is doing right by Lord and his word and that is where so many fail a distinction - one that is painfully obvious to me having been victimized by a "good man who goes to church". 

Going to church doesn't make one good. Nor does it make one bad. It means they go to a church and there the statement ends. I go to the park. I go many places. And where I am is where I will be and nothing else can be inferred from that.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Denton said:


> While arguing for Islam, you are here, arguing Christians kill abortionists and homosexuals. You are clearly only interested in starting fights and arguments.
> 
> YOU are why forums have to have rules. Stand down from trolling.


It's just facts.

If you can't handle the truth, that's your problem.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Frostbite said:


> It's just facts.
> 
> If you can't handle the truth, that's your problem.


Aha textbook - what a thin stream of pee in the wind you are. But like I said, good for American morale ~


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> SO I have to ask.. what is wrong with separating yourself into groups based on mutual ideals.... The Shriners, elks, lodge, Churches, etc... do many projects that help NON-Members
> 
> For those that DO NOT attend - what downside is there
> 
> ...


When I said people who have segregated themselves according to beliefs tend to be less accepting of 'wrongness', I was not referring to *doing* wrong. I was referring to *believing* wrong. I've seen it explicitly stated on this very board: Someone commented that he didn't care what happened to non-believers, they didn't count with him. Many other believers think outsiders 'count' only to the degree they may later become insiders...some groups would call that 'being saved'.

What does acceptance look like? Oh, how about letting other people engage in a civil contract called Marriage even if you don't agree with the genders of the parties involved? Or how many such people want to enter into one marriage, for that matter. How about not calling it 'persecution' when people object to having religious statements, symbols, etc. in publicly supported institutions? How about not getting offended when one particular religion's ceremonies or customs or not honored? (I'm referring here to customs such as Blue Laws, not actions that have obviously negative impacts on other people such as laws against stealing.) How about not caring who has sex with whom, so long as all parties are consenting adults?

I know in-group/out-group distinctions are part of human nature and are not going away. I also think that when people think their in-group is 'more godly' or 'has a clearer view of the mind and will of God' than out-group members, the separation and intolerance tend to be more vehement than for other types of group distinctions.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

oddapple said:


> Aha textbook - what a thin stream of pee in the wind you are. But like I said, good for American morale ~


Enough of that, too.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

My religious beliefs (way of worshiping my supreme being) are my beliefs. It is not for me to tell anyone, here or outside the forum what they should believe, feel, practice, etc. So sorry, I can't help you with your paper. You might get a better idea of what people believe by standing on the street corner and ask people at random. Plus it probably wouldn't upset some of the people here.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Mother's Best Little Ole Boy.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

My father had a saying, A church is where people that go out on Saturday night and sow wild oats can go Sunday morning a pray for crop failure.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Religion is an organization that allows people with similar spirituality to share that individual spirituality with others of similar spiritualities.

Spirituality is your personal belief system, how you connect with deity.

Religion is a formal outline that allows different folks to be in "sinc" with others who are publicly sharing a common section of their spirituality.

Talking to God is a direct spiritual act. Doing it in groups allows the "tribal" instinct to be met.

(if God talks to you then you are crazy, but if you talk to God then you are spiritual) (God told me to tell you all that)


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I think the term "organized religion" can falsely lead people to assume it's the organization that some don't like.

A better term might be "standardized religion" where you are more or less expected to accept as truth EVERY small interpretation of one specific doctrine or another. In standardized religion, you either embrace the whole or reject it, leaving no room for personal interpretation or "problems" with one tiny aspect of that system.

The simple truth is that no two people can possibly believe the exact same thing in every tiny detail. We all view our world through lenses tinted by the distortions of context, experience, and indoctrination. As someone once said, "we all cross the river called life, but the water is different for each of us."

I try to live my life according to the teachings of Jesus, yet I follow MY interpretation His teachings. I have said that I don't subscribe to any organized religion, but it's the standardization, the "all or nothing" aspects I object to, not the organization itself.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

You have to do what works for you. I have attended several denominations and a few nondenominational churches. I currently go to a nondenominational church because of what I get out of it in respect to deepening my relationship with Jesus Christ. It is my soul and I do my best to live as I should. Sometimes I stumble but you figure out what you did wrong and correct it. We are all sinners. If just going to church or donating money made you perfect we would have way more whacky behavior than we currently experience in this society. If its not for you so be it. Keep in mind your supposed to study the scriptures on your own time as well as pay attention to the sermon and praise God. Your supposed to think and reflect. Just my view.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Spice said:


> When I said people who have segregated themselves according to beliefs tend to be less accepting of 'wrongness', I was not referring to *doing* wrong. I was referring to *believing* wrong. I've seen it explicitly stated on this very board: Someone commented that he didn't care what happened to non-believers, they didn't count with him. Many other believers think outsiders 'count' only to the degree they may later become insiders...some groups would call that 'being saved'.
> 
> What does acceptance look like? Oh, how about letting other people engage in a civil contract called Marriage even if you don't agree with the genders of the parties involved? Or how many such people want to enter into one marriage, for that matter. How about not calling it 'persecution' when people object to having religious statements, symbols, etc. in publicly supported institutions? How about not getting offended when one particular religion's ceremonies or customs or not honored? (I'm referring here to customs such as Blue Laws, not actions that have obviously negative impacts on other people such as laws against stealing.) How about not caring who has sex with whom, so long as all parties are consenting adults?
> 
> I know in-group/out-group distinctions are part of human nature and are not going away. I also think that when people think their in-group is 'more godly' or 'has a clearer view of the mind and will of God' than out-group members, the separation and intolerance tend to be more vehement than for other types of group distinctions.


Having an opinion - Homosexuality is a sin - or saying Homosexuals should not marry - is not persecution...

As a conservative Christian - I have looked for the consenting adult clause in the bible but have not seen it.

I find it interesting that you view it as persecution when Christians talk about some SINFUL behavior and what their belief is but do not view it as persecution when godless people sue to remove symobols from mountian tops, courthouses, roadsides, and military cemeteries...

seems like you think it is ok to do things to rid christiananity from the market place but it is wrong for christians to voice their 2,000 year old beliefs


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> My father had a saying, A church is where people that go out on Saturday night and sow wild oats can go Sunday morning a pray for crop failure.


My dad hd a few of those silly sayings also


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Secularist. Always rationalizing humanism as if humans were rational.....they embrace reason believing it to be the most powerful religion is all....


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

thanks everybody for your views


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> seems like you think it is ok to do things to rid christiananity from the market place but it is wrong for christians to voice their 2,000 year old beliefs


The simple distinction here is that they should voice their beliefs in their own churches and not try to force them on anybody else.

That's just being polite.


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## firefighter72 (Apr 18, 2014)

My problem with organized religion is 1; some people think all you got to does is give a little money here and there and go to church and your fine 2; you have those people who think that they are better then everyone else all because they wear the nice clothes to church or go to the fanciest suit/dress. 3; religion shouldn't be a habit or something you have to take time out of your day or week to do it should be something that is a part of your every day life example; pray everyday, be a good person follow your religious beliefs (me that would be the ten commandments) be a good person and so on. People need to stop worrying about what church they go to or what the church thinks and focus more on their personal relationship with God. God made man man made religion.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

My view on all religions.

I don't care who you are, or what you believe, who you pray to or who you worship. That's your business, you are welcome to it… as long as you leave me alone to take care of my beliefs (or lack thereof).

As long as you respect my and everybody else's civil rights, and don't try to use my tax dollars to spread your religion, then we have no problems.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Frostbite said:


> The simple distinction here is that they should voice their beliefs in their own churches and not try to force them on anybody else.
> 
> That's just being polite.


Tell that to bumlam and the commies


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> So is the problem with the fact it is organized (The early believers had organized churches) or is the problem with the people or with *the fact that attending an organized place of worship makes YOU accountable*....


My problem with organized religion is this line right here ^^^^^^^^^.

It is trying to lay some type of guilt trip on me and I'm not even through the church doors yet. It is also smug and, for lack of a better phrase, holier than thou. I don't need a place of worship to "hold ME accountable" for anything. I hold myself accountable for being a good person and doing the right thing. The only others I allow to hold me accountable is my family and I only allow that because I respect and value their opinions and ideals.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Lot of people have a hyper sensitivity


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

I'd like to add a caveat to my earlier post. That being if someone needs/wants to be part of an organized religion I have no problem with that. I think an organized religion can and does a lot of good for people and communities. So even though it is not for me I have no problem with people partaking in it for themselves.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> My problem with organized religion is this line right here ^^^^^^^^^.
> 
> It is trying to lay some type of guilt trip on me and I'm not even through the church doors yet. It is also smug and, for lack of a better phrase, holier than thou. I don't need a place of worship to "hold ME accountable" for anything. I hold myself accountable for being a good person and doing the right thing. The only others I allow to hold me accountable is my family and I only allow that because I respect and value their opinions and ideals.


IF you are following Jesus Christ - then you are to be accountable to each other... It is not holier then thou it is basic bible teaching. Either the bible is worthy of teaching us or it is not...

I view it as correct and inspired by God..so.

AND it is not about being a GOOD PERSON - LOL - GOOD PERSON... Good in whose eyes??? Good based on what? Jesus said BE PERFECT... he even ask why they called him good... NOBODY IS GOOD EXCEPT SAVE GOD

Galatians 6:1-2 
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, *you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness*. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Matthew 18:15-17 
"If your brother sins against you,* go and tell him his fault,* between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

James 5:16 
Therefore, *confess your sins to one another* and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Hebrews 10:25 
*Not neglecting to meet togethe*r, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Colossians 3:16 
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and *admonishing one another in all wisdom*, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

scramble4a5 said:


> M
> 
> I would also add it is voluntary. Nobody marches you off to worship every Sunday.


I would like to argue that...I may not be forced to show up on Sunday but my rights are being formed by religious people and their beliefs...not my own.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

It seems to me that NOT fellowship in an organized group (Church building or home Church or in the park with other members) because of what other people do or say..is allowing others to influence your choices.

If Jesus is really important to you (and you trust the bible) it seems that you are putting your own comfort ahead of obedience.

>if you are not a Christian or do not view the bible as true then I understand you not going to an organized fellowship - BUT I do not think you can be a true bible believing Christian and not fellowship with like minded believers. The bible seems to make it clear we are to either be in leadership or place ourselves under the leadership of fellow Christians<

*I WANT TO REPEAT AGAIN

I am using this thread to work on a paper about attending organized Christian worship and teaching - I am trying to hone my arguments and am open to others arguments...*


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Mish said:


> I would like to argue that...I may not be forced to show up on Sunday but my rights are being formed by religious people and their beliefs...not my own.


maybe 100 years ago this was true but there is very little evidence that our government is religious today... The supreme court could not be convicted of it, I am sure the senate and house are not and the president - not so much


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Mish said:


> I would like to argue that...I may not be forced to show up on Sunday but my rights are being formed by religious people and their beliefs...not my own.


Well they get to vote too and despite all the whining about teligion, people vote to be more and more heinous every year? So then it's just that you imagine these things even tho the opposite is what really happens. Like most.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> maybe 100 years ago this was true but there is very little evidence that our government is religious today... The supreme court could not be convicted of it, I am sure the senate and house are not and the president - not so much


You have got to be kidding me...hehe
Religion plays a huge part. Why every election year do politicians start pumping their chests and labeling themselves Christians?!! Because that is supposed to mean something...make them a better person?!
Stem cell research, not allowing gay couples to marry, and abortion are all past and present laws with bases in religion.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

My money says "In God We Trust."

My kids have to put "Under God" in their school pledge of allegiance to America.

Obama hosts "Prayer Breakfasts" and he and most of the Congress are constantly babbling about praying for one thing or another.

I'd say there's a bit of religion in government.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Opens door...peaks in...slams door and runs.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

I must agree with sasquatch on the holier than thou part. Here is why, I have a neighbor who we have been good friends with for years, suddenly they found church and tried to talk us into joining when we told them that we did not believe in the catholic faith they stopped speaking to us and even turn their back when they see us walk out into the yard. I have 6 cousins very heavy into their southern Baptist church since I like to have a few drinks on Friday and don't go to church I am shunned.
This my friend is just a very small portion as to why I do not believe in organized religion.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Don't get me wrong I believe every one has the right to follow their chosen faith just don't try and jam it down my throat.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

slewfoot said:


> Don't get me wrong I believe every one has the right to follow the their chosen faith just don't try and jam it down my throat.


^^^^^ That is exactly my stance.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Mish said:


> ^^^^^ That is exactly my stance.


But that's how others feel about drunks and bubble headed bleach blondes? They just want to reserve some space where "not". Where sad sack isn't dragging everyone down and they never have to hear "but I have a brilliant personality!" - that gets "shoved down everyone's throat" ? But, it's a small matter. Just pointing out after the 50th "shove!" That it's a two way street.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Prepared One said:


> Opens door...peaks in...slams door and runs.


And actually, that seems like the good idea.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Organized churches send out missionaries. They bother people......and worse.



> *"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."
> --Desmond Tutu *


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

oddapple said:


> But that's how others feel about drunks and bubble headed bleach blondes? They just want to reserve some space where "not". Where sad sack isn't dragging everyone down and they never have to hear "but I have a brilliant personality!" - that gets "shoved down everyone's throat" ? But, it's a small matter. Just pointing out after the 50th "shove!" That it's a two way street.


I'm sorry, maybe my bubble headed bleach blondness is getting in the way of understanding your post. lol Drunks and blondes are being shoved down your throat? hehe Are you suggesting you have to deal with them like we have to deal with religious people?


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Mish said:


> I'm sorry, maybe my bubble headed bleach blondness is getting in the way of understanding your post. lol Drunks and blondes are being shoved down your throat? hehe Are you suggesting you have to deal with them like we have to deal with religious people?


Thank God!!!

I thought I was having a stroke or something when I could not comprehend his post at all!!!

It's not just me, then.

Whew.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> I have seen a few people post that they are against or have problems with Organized religion
> 
> I really do not understand the issue
> 
> ...


Once your church gets big enough, it adopts a sort of mass consciousness. In essence the organization itself is alive, a sentient being with a homogenized value-set inherited from its *core *members*. Like any living organism, the first rule of life is to survive at all costs. An example of this would be the first commandment. As a child you were likely taught in Sunday school that people of other faiths (Muslims and Jews) were in violation of this law (despite the fact that they are worshiping the same God of Amraham.) Why is this done? Because they are competing businesses. Your church could put itself out of business if it didn't vilify those other churches.

The second rule is procreation. The organism must spread it's content or it will become extinct (which violates the first rule). Because of the second rule they must expand and constantly update their grip on your membership. As an example, consider how many 'products' are currently available through the Catholic church: Baptism, first communion, confession, confirmation, marriage counselling, marriage services, divorce counselling, and funeral services. Then there are the holiday specials; Easter Sunday, midnight mass on Christmas, scapulae, etc.

How does that mean anything about your church? Essentially, saving your soul is only it's 4th** priority. Their primary business is obeying those first two rules of life.

Think of it another way; in their effort to keep a church alive for thousands of years, how much of what you have been told has been refined and edited to better maintain viewership. The organism will do whatever it has to do to stay alive. How about this example: Historians have been able to determine that Noah actually had more of a houseboat, with some pens for animals. Somehow the Christian salesmen have pumped up their product a wee bit.

*Casual members have little effect on the attitudes and perspectives of a large organization.
**The hierarchy will seek to protect itself above the membership. In medicine we refer to this condition as Shock. When injured, the brain will send all available blood and resources to the brain to protect it, even at cost of the body.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> I must agree with sasquatch on the holier than thou part. Here is why, I have a neighbor who we have been good friends with for years, suddenly they found church and tried to talk us into joining when we told them that we did not believe in the catholic faith they stopped speaking to us and even turn their back when they see us walk out into the yard. I have 6 cousins very heavy into their southern Baptist church since I like to have a few drinks on Friday and don't go to church I am shunned.
> This my friend is just a very small portion as to why I do not believe in organized religion.


So you are not following biblical teachings and do not like when your family does.

AS always - people do mind you being a Christian as long as you do not really try to be an obedient follower of Jesus Christ...

You would be ok with them IF they were not taking their faith seriously... but because they really believe in heaven and hell and ALSO since they have talked to you before and you reject what they believe you are now bothered that they want to separate themselves from your life style


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> Don't get me wrong I believe every one has the right to follow their chosen faith just don't try and jam it down my throat.


Jam it down your throat... this is america - nobody is going to force you to sit and listen..you can leave or close the door,...give me one case where somebody has FORCE IT DOWN YOUR THROAT... and talking to you when you can leave is not forcing it down your throat


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Once your church gets big enough, it adopts a sort of mass consciousness. In essence the organization itself is alive, a sentient being with a homogenized value-set inherited from its *core *members*. Like any living organism, the first rule of life is to survive at all costs. An example of this would be the first commandment. As a child you were likely taught in Sunday school that people of other faiths (Muslims and Jews) were in violation of this law (despite the fact that they are worshiping the same God of Amraham.) Why is this done? Because they are competing businesses. Your church could put itself out of business if it didn't vilify those other churches.
> 
> The second rule is procreation. The organism must spread it's content or it will become extinct (which violates the first rule). Because of the second rule they must expand and constantly update their grip on your membership. As an example, consider how many 'products' are currently available through the Catholic church: Baptism, first communion, confession, confirmation, marriage counselling, marriage services, divorce counselling, and funeral services. Then there are the holiday specials; Easter Sunday, midnight mass on Christmas, scapulae, etc.
> 
> ...


what a bunch of cow manure..... islam is not the same god as Jews and Christians...

Thev rest was a bunch of rambling ...1 minute i will never get back


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Ralph Rotten said:


> *Once your church gets big enough, it adopts a sort of mass consciousness. In essence the organization itself is alive, a sentient being with a homogenized value-set inherited from its core members*. Like any living organism, the first rule of life is to survive at all costs. An example of this would be the first commandment. As a child you were likely taught in Sunday school that people of other faiths (Muslims and Jews) were in violation of this law (despite the fact that they are worshiping the same God of Amraham.) Why is this done? Because they are competing businesses. Your church could put itself out of business if it didn't vilify those other churches.
> 
> The second rule is procreation. The organism must spread it's content or it will become extinct (which violates the first rule). Because of the second rule they must expand and constantly update their grip on your membership. As an example, consider how many 'products' are currently available through the Catholic church: Baptism, first communion, confession, confirmation, marriage counselling, marriage services, divorce counselling, and funeral services. Then there are the holiday specials; Easter Sunday, midnight mass on Christmas, scapulae, etc.
> 
> ...


I've been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt and finally burned it.

I went from fundamentalist Christian (they were nuts) to the most liberal Christian church (they were elitist) and finally gave up on that.

The things you so eloquently state are *exactly* what I experienced......church politics are amazingly toxic.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

slewfoot said:


> I must agree with sasquatch on the holier than thou part. Here is why, I have a neighbor who we have been good friends with for years, suddenly they found church and tried to talk us into joining when we told them that we did not believe in the catholic faith they stopped speaking to us and even turn their back when they see us walk out into the yard. I have 6 cousins very heavy into their southern Baptist church since I like to have a few drinks on Friday and don't go to church I am shunned.
> This my friend is just a very small portion as to why I do not believe in organized religion.


I drink with Catholics, Southern Baptists and atheists. Last night at work, I got a phone call from a friend who is at another airfield. I can't even attempt to describe his beliefs. It is some hybrid thing involving old Egyptian stuff, Luciferian stuff, voodoo stuff and some other stuff. I have him named "Satan's Henchman" in my phone. :grin: He likes that. He is rabid anti-Christian, so I don't know what it means about me that he and I are friends. :untroubled:

My friend and dive buddy is sort of atheistic. He doesn't believe in "God" but thinks we are all gods. I asked him to make me a tree but he has yet to produce it. It's OK; I am pretty patient and there is no deadline on my request. He is very conservative. His wife, also an atheist, sees herself as an artist, and appropriately very liberal. That their marriage is rock steady goes to prove that cats and dogs can live in harmony!

Yes, I have shared the Good News with all of my non-Christian friends. That is the Great Commission, and I try to obey it. After doing so, I leave it alone. The Great Commission isn't the Great Beat-Down, if you know what I mean. I do not have the power or the _authority_ to talk someone into believing, and everyone has the right to not believe. That is called free will.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Denton said:


> I do not have the power or the _authority_ to talk someone into believing, and everyone has the right to not believe. That is called free will.


Free will doesn't give you the power to believe or not believe at will. We can't choose what we believe at all. Try choosing to believe in flaming dragons and wizards, for example. One can claim to believe, one can try to believe, but at the end of the day, there is no choice... you either believe or you don't based on what facts you have available.

I used to get into arguments with atheist science-types. I tried to explain to them that they take more on faith than most theists, and that there is little difference between science and religion as far as faith is concerned. Did they ever perform all those experiments that form the basis of modern scientific knowledge? No, they read it in a book somewhere and assume it is factual because they were told that it's factual.... they took it on faith.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Denton said:


> I drink with Catholics, Southern Baptists and atheists. Last night at work, I got a phone call from a friend who is at another airfield. I can't even attempt to describe his beliefs. It is some hybrid thing involving old Egyptian stuff, Luciferian stuff, voodoo stuff and some other stuff. I have him named "Satan's Henchman" in my phone. :grin: He likes that. He is rabid anti-Christian, so I don't know what it means about me that he and I are friends. :untroubled:
> 
> My friend and dive buddy is sort of atheistic. He doesn't believe in "God" but thinks we are all gods. I asked him to make me a tree but he has yet to produce it. It's OK; I am pretty patient and there is no deadline on my request. He is very conservative. His wife, also an atheist, sees herself as an artist, and appropriately very liberal. That their marriage is rock steady goes to prove that cats and dogs can live in harmony!
> 
> Yes, I have shared the Good News with all of my non-Christian friends. That is the Great Commission, and I try to obey it. After doing so, I leave it alone. The Great Commission isn't the Great Beat-Down, if you know what I mean. I do not have the power or the _authority_ to talk someone into believing, and everyone has the right to not believe. That is called free will.


Yep, yep, yep and yep...

my best friend from the Marines is "something" whatever it is is not christian.. I still love him..he knows where I am coming from and what I believe..


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> Free will doesn't give you the power to believe or not believe at will. We can't choose what we believe at all. Try choosing to believe in flaming dragons and wizards, for example. One can claim to believe, one can try to believe, but at the end of the day, there is no choice... you either believe or you don't based on what facts you have available.
> 
> I used to get into arguments with atheist science-types. I tried to explain to them that they take more on faith than most theists, and that there is little difference between science and religion as far as faith is concerned. Did they ever perform all those experiments that form the basis of modern scientific knowledge? No, they read it in a book somewhere and assume it is factual because they were told that it's factual.... they took it on faith.


Exactly... I believe what I believe because the facts point me to that... sort of like how the grand canoe came to be one says long time little water other says short time lots of water


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Think about this.....

If you were opposed to the "Church" what would you do to stop people from going? ((What would Satan do))

maybe have some troublemakers, a gossip or two... a few back stabbers...


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> So you are not following biblical teachings and do not like when your family does.
> 
> AS always - people do mind you being a Christian as long as you do not really try to be an obedient follower of Jesus Christ...
> 
> You would be ok with them IF they were not taking their faith seriously... but because they really believe in heaven and hell and ALSO since they have talked to you before and you reject what they believe you are now bothered that they want to separate themselves from your life style


 I think you misunderstand my post. I bye no means are upset or reject them, they are the ones who chose to not associate with us because we do not want to join there church. And I do not care if they want to be that way just shows me how Christian they really are. 
As for jamming it down my throat, it is a figure of speech, once I have expressed my opinion don't keep coming back trying to change my mind.



Maine-Marine said:


> Jam it down your throat... this is america - nobody is going to force you to sit and listen..you can leave or close the door,...give me one case where somebody has FORCE IT DOWN YOUR THROAT... and talking to you when you can leave is not forcing it down your throat


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> Jam it down your throat... this is america - nobody is going to force you to sit and listen..you can leave or close the door,...give me one case where somebody has FORCE IT DOWN YOUR THROAT... and talking to you when you can leave is not forcing it down your throat


Unfortunately, I can't just walk away from a law, so I have to listen.


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

An exclusive church will serve to turn people away from god. And turning people away will serve who and what? The people down here don't make the final decisions.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

James m said:


> An exclusive church will serve to turn people away from god. And turning people away will serve who and what? The people down here don't make the final decisions.


At what point do you determine what is a church, what is a religion, what is an organized religion, and what is "exclusive?"

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

That sounds exclusive, doesn't it?


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Denton said:


> At what point do you determine what is a church, what is a religion, what is an organized religion, and what is "exclusive?"
> 
> Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
> 
> That sounds exclusive, doesn't it?


Yep, but did Jesus actually say that? Or did the ORGANIZED followers of the crafty Saul/Paul stick it into their contrived religious writings???

Most authentic and truly educated Bible scholars believe the latter.

The Jesus Seminar - Westar Institute Westar Institute

Their book, "The Five Gospels," is quite fascinating. You will learn that Jesus actually said less than 20% of what has been claimed.

So "quoting" Jesus as having said this or that is not proof of anything.

A truly scholarly study of Jesus shows him to be far, FAR from exclusive and really almost totally INCLUSIVE.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

"Sanctify G-d alone, and let him be your awe and dread"
Good enough. Looks like bases covered.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

So, Paul is responsible for John's observations, as well as Mathew's and Lukes'?

Yes, a study of whatever you view as more to your liking is much better, I am quite sure.

On the other hand, an understanding of why He came, died and then rose, makes things much clear.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Denton said:


> So, Paul is responsible for John's observations, as well as Mathew's and Lukes'?


Glad you asked!

Absolutely responsible. Now, you do know that this mysterious Saul/Paul character started his "Christ" church and his writings a long time before those other stories were written, right? The NT is not laid out in chronological order.....far from it.

So the boys you mention came along a lot later and were simply followers of Saul/Paul and parroting the myths he created in his teachings and his many letters.

:love_heart:


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Why did you have to ask?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Frostbite said:


> Glad you asked!
> 
> Absolutely responsible. Now, you do know that this mysterious Saul/Paul character started his "Christ" church and his writings a long time before those other stories were written, right? The NT is not laid out in chronological order.....far from it.
> 
> ...


Brilliant. So, the ones who were with Jesus, who are the witnesses, somehow also came along later and followed Paul?

My assessment of you is correct.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

oddapple said:


> Why did you have to ask?


Give enough rope...


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Denton said:


> Brilliant. So, the ones who were with Jesus, who are the witnesses, somehow also came along later and followed Paul?


Not really, although that's a popular misconception. Those who wrote (and re-wrote) the Gospels never actually met Jesus. They came along later.

The first Gospel was started about 70 C.E. and Saul/Paul started writing his letters about 50 C.E. The last Gospel was started about 100 C.E.

Here's an excellent historical link about the Gospels for you. Historical reliability of the Gospels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It should be of interest to the student who started the thread because it shows the difference between Jesus and the folks like Saul/Paul who came after......in other words, Jesus and his followers as UNorganized church and Saul/Paul and his followers as ORGANIZED church.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

And again......Jesus was inclusive.

The church of Saul/Paul and his followers rapidly became more and more EXCLUSIVE.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Mish said:


> Unfortunately, I can't just walk away from a law, so I have to listen.


i have no idea what you are talking about


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

I think she works for the government, everyone run!

All of the different versions and translations over a 2,000 year game similar to the childrens telephone game, lost in translation. I often remember reading a passage and hearing what it was said to mean, huh? No correlation to what was written. Are we supposed to read something and repeat something it does not say. If all of these documents were written today, what would happen.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

James m said:


> I think she works for the government, everyone run!
> 
> All of the different versions and translations over a 2,000 year game similar to the childrens telephone game, lost in translation. I often remember reading a passage and hearing what it was said to mean, huh? No correlation to what was written. Are we supposed to read something and repeat something it does not say. If all of these documents were written today, what would happen.


it is nothing like the telephone game.. there was an original.. it was copied many times 1 to 100 >not 1 to 1 to 1 to 1 like the telephone game<

there are 5,600 copies of the new testament... of those copies there are no major doctrinal issues.. most "mistakes" are differences in spelling.

nothing has been lost in translation...


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## wesley762 (Oct 23, 2012)

So I read the first post and honestly did not want to read through ten pages of stuff. little bit of my story and why I have issues with Organized religion. I want to say this with the understanding that I have my relationship with god and I am firm in my beliefs. 

I grew up in the south and attended a southern baptist church. We went every Sunday morning, Sunday evening and every Wednesday. Most of what I remember from attending was in the 80's to early 90's. There where alot of good people in the Church and than there where the others. I grew up in a broken home with a single mom with 3 boys. my mother was looked down on and was not respected (alot more there but not going into it on the interwebs). Church should be a place where everyone is accepted for who they are and that just is not case with organized religion. 

There are just as much politics in "Organized Religion". I have seen people be looked down on and stereotyped on a way someone looked or acted like. to much Judgment that I have seen from people that are suppose to be your brothers and sisters and to care and love each other. I could go on and on but I have seen this in more than 1 Church. I believe you can still walk with god and have a strong relationship with him and spread they faith without belonging to one particular group.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

wesley762 said:


> So I read the first post and honestly did not want to read through ten pages of stuff. little bit of my story and why I have issues with Organized religion. I want to say this with the understanding that I have my relationship with god and I am firm in my beliefs.
> 
> Church should be a place where everyone is accepted for who they are and that just is not case with organized religion.
> 
> There are just as much politics in "Organized Religion". I have seen people be looked down on and stereotyped on a way someone looked or acted like. to much Judgment that I have seen from people that are suppose to be your brothers and sisters and to care and love each other. I could go on and on but I have seen this in more than 1 Church. I believe you can still walk with god and have a strong relationship with him and spread they faith without belonging to one particular group.


So I guess you do not view the bible as an authority on how to live your life.

Can you explain to me how we are to make disciples and not forsake the fellowship


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> what a bunch of cow manure..... islam is not the same god as Jews and Christians...
> 
> Thev rest was a bunch of rambling ...1 minute i will never get back


Now you're just being rude. You solicited an opinion from us, then when we reply you lash out like a troll.
Yes, Muslims and Jews also worship the God of Abraham, same as you. 
If you knew a tenth of wht you think you do about religion then you shoulda already known that. God is God, regardless of what you call him. How pitifully small minded a person would have to be to actually believe God takes sides in your pedantic arguments. 
Your entire attitude about other religions is no different than those corncobs in ISIS or Boko.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> So I guess you do not view the bible as an authority on how to live your life.
> 
> Can you explain to me how we are to make disciples and not forsake the fellowship


See! That is a great example of what we have been saying about organized religion. You heard something you didn;t like, something that didn't fit your narrow definition of God, and you immediately go Holier than Thou on Wesley. You treated a couple of other people like crap about their responses as well. As if you have an inkling of God's real form. You know what your church told you, nothing more. I doubt you have ever even read the Bible cover to cover.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Now you're just being rude. You solicited an opinion from us, then when we reply you lash out like a troll.
> Yes, Muslims and Jews also worship the God of Abraham, same as you.
> If you knew a tenth of wht you think you do about religion then you shoulda already known that. God is God, regardless of what you call him. How pitifully small minded a person would have to be to actually believe God takes sides in your pedantic arguments.
> Your entire attitude about other religions is no different than those corncobs in ISIS or Boko.


Ralph... lets look at how God is described by Christians, Jews, Muslims

Christians and Jews -you can know God
Islam - You can not know God

Christians and Jews - God never Lies
Islam - God Lies

Christians and Jews - You can offer a sacrifice and be forgiven
Islam - You never know

and there are more.. There is no way based on the descriptions that they are the same God

And part of this is, for me, is being able to make the person defend their statement...

so you may think they all worship the same god... but those that have come out of islam disagree... youtube Walid Shoebat


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> See! That is a great example of what we have been saying about organized religion. You heard something you didn;t like, something that didn't fit your narrow definition of God, and you immediately go Holier than Thou on Wesley. You treated a couple of other people like crap about their responses as well. As if you have an inkling of God's real form. You know what your church told you, nothing more. I doubt you have ever even read the Bible cover to cover.


I heard something that was in disagreement with biblical teachings. i questioned the statement based on the fact it disagreed with the bible. of course again.. it is ok to be a christian as long as you do not really believe what the bible teaches right!

If the bible says we are not to foresake the fellowship and people are teaching it is ok to not fellowship.. who is right?

Jesus says the way is narrow - if people teach there are many ways - who is right?

It seems that the problem with organized religion is that it actually requires people to do what the bible says!

SO is actually believing the bible being holier then thou?

*Point out to me one thing I said that is wrong based on bible teachings>>>>*


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

No, Mr. MaineMarine......as much as you wiggle......they have you pegged.

You, rather ironically, have graphically demonstrated through your rude and pompous responses to those who responded to your request.......that organized religion IS INDEED holier than thou and *intensely arrogant*.......plus being quite lacking in the facts about the Bible.

You have some really good information to write your paper now.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Now you're just being rude. You solicited an opinion from us, then when we reply you lash out like a troll.


I was a little rude.. I apologize... However the idea that all three groups worship the say God is wrong/incorrect/... you can not have three groups give different descriptions and think they are describing the same thing

there is only ONE ALMIGHTY GOD.. and islam does not worship Him


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> > IF you are following Jesus Christ - then you are to be accountable to each other... It is not holier then thou it is basic bible teaching. Either the bible is worthy of teaching us or it is not...
> >
> > I view it as correct and inspired by God..so.
> 
> ...


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

WTH? The Qran, Torah, and Bible are all based on the God of Abraham. Look it up fer yerself.
Just because the religions are different means absolutely nothing. Men have tried to define God since the dawn of time, but none of it actually changes God himself (or herself for all I know). God is what he is, regardless of any clazy ideas you may have on the topic. Just because someone worships God differently doesnt make them evil or blasphemous. 

Here is an iron-clad way to prove that you have a God in common with those filthy towelheads:
Ask yourself this: Do you worship a second rate God, or do you worship the all-powerful, all-knowing God?
Then go and ask a Jew or Muslim. betcha their answer is the same as yours. 
Same God, and he is good.

So quit hassling us over our religious beliefs. You asked. We told you.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> Maine-Marine said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't referring to the bible being holier than thou I was talk about you and the way you worded the question. And I am not following Jesus Christ so I guess it kinda makes the point moot.
> ...


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> WTH? The Qran, Torah, and Bible are all based on the God of Abraham. Look it up fer yerself.
> Just because the religions are different means absolutely nothing. Men have tried to define God since the dawn of time, but none of it actually changes God himself (or herself for all I know). God is what he is, regardless of any clazy ideas you may have on the topic. Just because someone worships God differently doesnt make them evil or blasphemous.
> 
> Here is an iron-clad way to prove that you have a God in common with those filthy towelheads:
> ...


Ralph, do you really want to know how you are wrong, or are you happy the way you are? Serious - if I can show you are wrong, will it matter or is it a waste of my time.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> I was a little rude.. I apologize... However the idea that all three groups worship the say God is wrong/incorrect/... you can not have three groups give different descriptions and think they are describing the same thing
> 
> there is only ONE ALMIGHTY GOD.. and islam does not worship Him


Well, 1.6 Billion Muslims disagree with you.......although I suppose we should agree with you since you so strongly bear witness to your own wisdom.

Your credibility as an authority is undermined by several things, starting with your lack of familiarity with the Bible.

So, as a "Prepper" (one who stores up worldly goods)........how do you explain the fact that you ignore these words of the man you claim as your God? Yes, Jesus said......



> * Matthew 6:19-21New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
> Concerning Treasures
> 
> 19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[a] consume and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.*


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

The problem there is, our Bible says the little illegitimate slave's son is the half brother - I think it's a horrible story of a historic mistake, but that's the story.
There are half wit guys in Kansas with women in barns refusing to give them med care and using bible - they aren't worshipping what I worship either, but you don't have to go far in either congregation to find what we all wish we didn't. (I just hate stupid azz dirty people justifying all crimes by god, but having no works of truth or love in his name. My heart is not right, even if my works are dam near perfect...)

And frostbite, as far as your "1.6 million muslims!" Go, I can fit 1.6 billion genotype5 killers in a dam test tube and all I am waiting for is permission....so you and the illegitimates should not be so confident in "over powering the world!" Because it only takes one little ol boy scout to teach you truth....but like I said, permission. My bag is packed baby. I'm kinda tired of being the "maytag repair man" I want social justice too -


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

This is a touchy topic.

Please stick to the topic at hand and leave personalities out of it. It's fine to argue that a concept is wrong, but not OK to say a specific person is stupid for believing that concept.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Frostbite, I apologize if it sounded like I was saying you were stupid for not knowing they only exist because of white greed and head games. I thought even those booboos knew that. I don't think being a big fat commie is stupid, I think it's criminal. An insult to the rightness of life.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

oddapple said:


> Frostbite, I apologize if it sounded like I was saying you were stupid for not knowing they only exist because of white greed and head games. I thought even those booboos knew that. I don't think being a big fat commie is stupid, I think it's criminal. An insult to the rightness of life.


That's ok, Oddapple.

I have so much trouble understanding your posts that I don't know if you're calling me stupid, or a criminal or big and fat, or a commie or if you're saying I'm an insult to the rightness of life (whatever that is).

So, no harm done, buddy.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

That'll do


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> Sasquatch said:
> 
> 
> > I am a little confused, I based my question off of biblical truth...
> ...


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## wesley762 (Oct 23, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> So I guess you do not view the bible as an authority on how to live your life.
> 
> Can you explain to me how we are to make disciples and not forsake the fellowship


Pretty simple, share the word of God and not hide your faith. you don't have to belong to a group to do that.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

wesley762 said:


> Pretty simple, share the word of God and not hide your faith. you don't have to belong to a group to do that.


The bible is clear we are not to forsake the assembling together and encouraging and correcting one another...

sort of hard to do that and be a LONE RANGER Christian


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> The bible is clear we are not to forsake the assembling together and encouraging and correcting one another...
> 
> sort of hard to do that and be a LONE RANGER Christian
> 
> View attachment 9876


Another interesting contrast between "Organized" church and "Unorganized" church.

The writers of the Epistles were all followers of the devious Saul/Paul and his big thing, of course, was passing the collection plate.

How do you pass a collection plate if there's no "gathering together?"

How do you pass a plate to the Lone Ranger Christian?

So naturally the followers of Saul/Paul were big on gathering together. Look at the mega-churches of today. Gather them together in the thousands and pass the plate.

The crafty old Saul/Paul was the first to cash in on the money to be made in religion.

Not surprising that when we last hear of him he is living in a house that he owns in Rome and still preaching and passing the plate.

This is the huge difference in the organized and unorganized church........PROFIT.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

encouraging and correcting one another..."

Yeah I apologize brother but that line is why people back off you like I am now. We're back to that with you (your little glitch) and there is no way I will call people together so the ones that like inspecting and shoving them around can get their Christian on.
They need to worry about the deal between them and god and specifically not allow their selves to be subjected to self appointed alphas commanding obesiance. I can cure that problem for my poor people.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

oddapple said:


> encouraging and correcting one another..."
> 
> Yeah I apologize brother but that line is why people back off you like I am now. We're back to that with you (your little glitch) and there is no way I will call people together so the ones that like inspecting and shoving them around can get their Christian on.
> They need to worry about the deal between them and god and specifically not allow their selves to be subjected to self appointed alphas commanding obesiance. I can cure that problem for my poor people.


Jesus correct the disciples many times. It is part of discipleship...

how can a person learn without it. I am not talking about thumb screws and being boiled in oil,,, I am talking about what is layout in the bible....

as to the "Getting their Christian on" & "self appointed alphas commanding obesiance."... Not sure where that is coming from - I WOULD NOT LIKE THAT EITHER

Hebrews 10:25 
not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

My little glitch is that I REALLY believe what the bible says... I views it as commands not suggestions


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

oddapple said:


> encouraging and correcting one another..."
> 
> Yeah I apologize brother but that line is why people back off you like I am now. We're back to that with you (your little glitch) and there is no way I will call people together so the ones that like inspecting and shoving them around can get their Christian on.
> They need to worry about the deal between them and god and specifically not allow their selves to be subjected to self appointed alphas commanding obesiance. I can cure that problem for my poor people.


were they serious about this...???????????????????

and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and *teachers*,

These, then, are the things you should teach. *Encourage and rebuke* with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; *correct, rebuke and encourage*--with great patience and careful instruction.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

I think it is time for this thread to die and go to thread heaven.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

slewfoot said:


> I think it is time for this thread to die and go to thread heaven.


I am in full agreement.

This has had nothing to do with historical/cultural discussion but has been exactly what splinters a forum - theological squabbling.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

Yeah, I think the MaineMarine has made his point and rebuked us more than enough.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Interesting discussion.. thanks guys


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

And....cut!


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