# IS EMP that big a deal?



## Real Old Man

EMP Myths and Facts. What?s BS and What?s True? | Ask a Prepper


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## SDF880

I think it is or certainly can be a big deal! I have 2 Faraday cages at home stuffed with electronics I want to save.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime

I think a lot is not understood and I certainly don't know all that much just taking precautions!


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## paraquack

This is written by from all accounts a very reliable engineer.
Electromagnetic Pulse - EMP Myths - futurescience.com
Everything in your link seems ok, except for the paragraph about tablets and such. I wonder if it is shielded against EMI or RFI. I'm guessing the former.


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## ReignMan

I think it's like most things in life: about probability. Is EMP a big deal? Could be ... or could not be. Depends on many factors. Hopefully we'll never have to figure out if it's a big deal or not.


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## A Watchman

Yes. Its how I would cripple a nation or society. Know what it is and can do, and have a plan.


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## Kauboy

Former CIA Director, R. James Woolsey said this during testimony to the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee:


> "The EMP threat is as real as nuclear threats from Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran. Nuclear EMP attack is part of the military doctrines, plans and exercises of all of these nations for a revolutionary new way of warfare that focuses on attacking electric grids and civilian critical infrastructures--what they call Total Information Warfare or No Contact Wars, and what some western analysts call Cybergeddon or Blackout Wars."


He thinks it's real enough. My personal precautions to protect against it are easy to implement(nested Faraday cage). Why not take the simple steps necessary to be ready for it? It's not like it would even be a recurring prep. You can just gather your chosen things, pack them properly, and forget them. Done!
It may not be an extremely high threat, but when I weigh it against the necessary actions to defend against it, the decision is easy.


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## jim-henscheli

I prep for EMP some, my main items are lights. Flash lights and headlamps...picture a world without electronic lights!


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## hawgrider

jim-henscheli said:


> I prep for EMP some, my main items are lights. Flash lights and headlamps...picture a world without electronic lights!


If your worried about electronic lights your soft. What did we ever do before batterys and electricity. Your ancestors are laughing now.


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## Kauboy

hawgrider said:


> If your worried about electronic lights your soft. What did we ever do before batterys and electricity. Your ancestors are laughing now.


Hawg, the topic is about EMP relevance.
Why do you constantly feel the need to attack people?
There's nothing wrong with prepping for the creature comforts.
What did we ever do before batteries and electricity? We spent enumerable hours coming up with how to invent them.

Will you attack me next, or actually contribute to the topic?


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## Joe Smith

So, The Lord seems to be annoyed by me, but I've been struck by lightning twice. The second time it hit the car as I was driving. The windshield was destroyed but other than that the car is relatively fine. Occasionally the driver's door will lock itself, and not open, even with the key.

Explain to me why this is different. I would think that emp wouldn't have more voltage than a lightning bolt. Perhaps we worry too much about the little things.


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## hawgrider

Kauboy said:


> Hawg, the topic is about EMP relevance.
> Why do you constantly feel the need to attack people?
> There's nothing wrong with prepping for the creature comforts.
> What did we ever do before batteries and electricity? We spent enumerable hours coming up with how to invent them.
> 
> Will you attack me next, or actually contribute to the topic?


"Main Items are lights" if thats all your concerned with then you are soft too. Nice talking to you Mr Ron.


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## Maine-Marine

My woodstove, wood, canned food, water filters, candles, and other such items will not be effected.. I will be able to heat and eat and stay warm and dry.


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## dwight55

If you think about the EMP in relationship to the Pearl Harbor attack, . . . the answer to your question is the same for both places: it depends on where you are, and what's between you and "it".

If you were on the Arizona that day, . . . you probably did not make it through the attack, . . . but if you were in downtown Honolulu, . . . you were AOK.

The EMP will be the same.

There is no place that a simple EMP strike can get the whole USA from what I have read. The Rocky Mts. will shield whomever is on the other side from the effects of it. 

One scenario does scare me though, . . . some place in Tenn. was said one time to be within 500 miles of over half the population of the USA, . . . and some EMP's could have that radius, . . . therefore if it hits there, . . . over half the population of the US could or would be affected.

ANY unprotected electronic gizmo is toast, . . . as well as all internet, cell towers, TV, Radio, and most electric generating plants. The Maine-Marine "act alikes" will get along OK, . . . but not many others.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Kauboy

Joe Smith said:


> Explain to me why this is different. I would think that emp wouldn't have more voltage than a lightning bolt. Perhaps we worry too much about the little things.


An EMP would have considerably more energy by the time it reached the ground. The biggest problem is the "E1 pulse". If a nuclear blast, or EMP device, were detonated in the atmosphere, it would create a chain reaction with every atom in the air between the point of blast and the ground... and a bit into the ground. Every atom would be ionized. The initial energy would cause them to all kick off an electron. Those electrons would be in a frantic race to find atoms of a conductive material to bond with. They would overload all circuitry that was not shielded and not of substantial volume to absorb the free flow of electrons. All integrated circuits, semiconductors, and thin wiring would overload and fry. Larger lines would act as collectors, and anything plugged into them would be hit with a massive surge. Even if the appliance was robust enough to handle the free floating pulse, they would likely not be able to handle the large overload on the incoming wire.
The impact would be much greater that a lightning bolt.


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## Kauboy

dwight55 said:


> There is no place that a simple EMP strike can get the whole USA from what I have read. The Rocky Mts. will shield whomever is on the other side from the effects of it.


Not to frighten anyone, but a ground based EMP is not the optimal delivery vector if the goal is wide-spread impact.
Rather, a "high-altitude" detonation would be the most effective.
An EMP has a tremendous range due to the chain reaction. Estimates are that if an EMP of sufficient size (any modern large scale nuke) were detonated 300 miles above Kansas, the resulting pulses would cover the entire contiguous United States. Such a blast would knock out every transformer in the country, and we would not recover for decades due to their difficulty in producing. There are no spares for the big ones that our grid relies on. They are just too expensive to keep on hand, and have to be made in Germany.
A "HEMP" would devastate this country.


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## Montana Rancher

Real Old Man said:


> EMP Myths and Facts. What?s BS and What?s True? | Ask a Prepper


Lights out nation wide, about 100 million dead in 90 days.

I'd say its a big deal.


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## DadofTheFamily

It's not the most likely SHTF scenario but it doesn't have to break the bank to prep for EMP. A strategically placed EMP over the central US is not likely. However a device detonated over the Atlantic Ocean would affect the East Coast and could trash that grid and susceptible devices. The East Coast accounts for the majority of the economic output of the US. I have mainly comms equipment in my Faraday cages. One key thing to remember is that the YouTube stuff about putting an FM radio in a trash can to confirm EMR shielding is "Bravo Sierra". The frequency emissions and voltage from an EMP device or CME are very different. For a DIY setup, you need layers of protection to effectively shield sensitive electronics.


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## Gunner's Mate

Montana Rancher said:


> Lights out nation wide, about 100 million dead in 90 days.
> 
> I'd say its a big deal.


yeah Id say 100 mil is accurate most would be democrats


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## SGG

DadofTheFamily said:


> It's not the most likely SHTF scenario but it doesn't have to break the bank to prep for EMP. A strategically placed EMP over the central US is not likely. However a device detonated over the Atlantic Ocean would affect the East Coast and could trash that grid and susceptible devices. The East Coast accounts for the majority of the economic output of the US. I have mainly comms equipment in my Faraday cages. One key thing to remember is that the YouTube stuff about putting an FM radio in a trash can to confirm EMR shielding is "Bravo Sierra". The frequency emissions and voltage from an EMP device or CME are very different. For a DIY setup, you need layers of protection to effectively shield sensitive electronics.


Please link me to appropriate prep article/advice! Noob here but at the very least I'd like to shield some walkie talkies


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## Kauboy

SGG said:


> Please link me to appropriate prep article/advice! Noob here but at the very least I'd like to shield some walkie talkies


Be prepared for a reading session, but this is the best page for advice I've found: EMP Protection
It's another child page from the site linked to on the first page a couple posts down. If you can just get through that site, you will have more knowledge about EMPs and solar storms than 90% of the population. It's real world info, not some keyboard commando or book seller.


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## SGG

Kauboy said:


> Be prepared for a reading session, but this is the best page for advice I've found: EMP Protection
> It's another child page from the site linked to on the first page a couple posts down. If you can just get through that site, you will have more knowledge about EMPs and solar storms than 90% of the population. It's real world info, not some keyboard commando or book seller.


Thank you. Saved link and will read tomorrow. Appreciate it


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## Boss Dog

When I was still in the Navy at Va.Beach (1990'ish), the Navy towed a barge up and down the coast with a low power emp simulator to see what effect it would have. I believe it was part of their research into nuclear attack. It scared the crap out of them. One of their recommendations was to dust off old tube radio equipment and line-of-sight relay transceivers (like microwave comms but, the older the better). The newer and more advanced (sensitive) the circuitry, the worse damage it will cause. It will absolutely fry computer based equipment. I knew about this because communications was my field and I was involved with Navy Seal Teams at the time, in a support role. We got to read EVERYTHING.

http://www.empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf 2004

https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Baker-Statement-5-13-EMP.pdf May 13, 2015

It's a big deal.


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## Prepared One

I have this event in my top 5 so I prepare for the possibility.


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## Kauboy

Boss Dog said:


> When I was still in the Navy at Va.Beach (1990'ish), the Navy towed a barge up and down the coast with a low power emp simulator to see what effect it would have. I believe it was part of their research into nuclear attack. It scared the crap out of them. One of their recommendations was to dust off old tube radio equipment and line-of-sight relay transceivers (like microwave comms but, the older the better). The newer and more advanced (sensitive) the circuitry, the worse damage it will cause. It will absolutely fry computer based equipment. I knew about this because communications was my field and I was involved with Navy Seal Teams at the time, in a support role. We got to read EVERYTHING.
> 
> http://www.empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf 2004
> 
> https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Baker-Statement-5-13-EMP.pdf May 13, 2015
> 
> It's a big deal.


Thanks Boss!
Great links.

I was actually a bit shocked at the power output given in the second link. I assumed it was on par with that of a lightning strike, but was way off in that assumption.
It seems a single lightning strike does has significantly more power than an EMP would affect in the same area of impact. (few square feet)
However, since an EMP covers a much larger area, the total result is much more devastating.


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## hawgrider

Kauboy said:


> Thanks Boss!
> Great links.
> 
> I was actually a bit shocked at the power output given in the second link.* I assumed* it was on par with that of a lightning strike, *but was way off in that assumption*.


Say its not true Crusty. You were wrong ? Oh the horror I thought you were the expert on everything. Legend in your own mind huh.


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## Kauboy

hawgrider said:


> Say its not true Crusty. You were wrong ? Oh the horror I thought you were the expert on everything. Legend in your own mind huh.


And again with the attacks. Big man.. big man.


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## hawgrider

Kauboy said:


> And again with the attacks. Big man.. big man.


You have never called someone out here....

Your always kind and tolerant...

Yeah right.


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## Kauboy

hawgrider said:


> You have never called someone out here....
> 
> Your always kind and tolerant...
> 
> Yeah right.


Calling out someone who is wrong is one thing.
Attacking someone who openly corrects themselves? That's "hawg-level" petulance.


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## rice paddy daddy

Aww, come on guys. Lighten up.

Now, as Kauboy said, for a nuclear generated EMP to affect the whole country, it would have to be a war head detonated about 300 miles above Kansas. In that scenario I think we, as Americans, would have more to worry about than our personal electronics getting fried.
That would mean we were at war with a nuclear capable enemy.

My concern is more mundane. A very large solar eruption. 
Or, hackers attacking our electrical grid. From what I've read and heard this would be ridiculously easy and could possible destroy the whole grid. See kauboy's post above about the massive, custom made, transformers required to run the grid.


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## sideKahr

The grid is a lot more delicate than we think. Remember the huge east coast blackout. It was caused by a tree branch striking a conductor, followed by cascading failure. A small warhead launched from a cargo ship in Norfolk reaching just 100 miles altitude or so would be much more effective than a tree branch in causing cascading failure.

From everything I've read, the threat is very real.


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## Maine-Marine

Montana Rancher said:


> Lights out nation wide, about 100 million dead in 90 days.
> 
> I'd say its a big deal.


In my humble opinion.. much will depend on the time of year....

if it happens winter time.... the death rate will be much higher because people will not be able to convert to wood/coal for heat... if we had an EMP in January-there will be a massive die off in the north...mostly in cities... rural areas in places like Maine, West Virginia, North Dakota will be better off since most folks have a back up heat source.

food, fuel, distribution will stop

there will be a good side effect to winter in that there will be no zombie motorcycle gangs zooming around in 4 feet of snow....


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## sideKahr

It is a nightmare scenario. 100 million dead may be conservative.


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## DadofTheFamily

@SCG There's lots of stuff out there that says anything from a single wrap of aluminum foil around something to putting things in microwave ovens to building underground bunkers.

The best scientific YouTube video series I've seen is this guy *HERE*
Just search his channel for EMP and Faraday cage

Here's what I do.

1 Wrap electronics (and lithium batteries) separately in anti-static mylar bags. 
2 Next wrap them in a layer of newspaper followed by a layer of heavy aluminum foil. 
3 Place these in a metal container than can be nested inside of other metal containers. For example a large popcorn tin or Christmas cookie tins.
4 Line the container with cardboard on bottom and sides and seal the edges of the container with aluminum tape.
5 Next place that container into another larger container and repeat step 4.
6 Do steps 4 and 5 to create as many layers as possible and place the "nested" container in a large steel trash can.
7 Use steel wool glued to the top of the trash can to ensure maximum conductivity and seal it with aluminum tape. 
8 I also tape all the seams and handles on the can's cover and the can as well. 
9 Place the can in your dwelling at the lowest point and away from any electrical wiring. Don't ground it.

Maybe overkill but still an inexpensive way to prep just in case. I keep spare comms equipment in my cage.


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## Prepared One

sideKahr said:


> The grid is a lot more delicate than we think. Remember the huge east coast blackout. It was caused by a tree branch striking a conductor, followed by cascading failure. A small warhead launched from a cargo ship in Norfolk reaching just 100 miles altitude or so would be much more effective than a tree branch in causing cascading failure.
> 
> From everything I've read, the threat is very real.


The grid is all to easy. It's on their to-do-list for sure. You can count on it. That unpleasant scenario is very high on my list of probabilities as well.


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## txmarine6531

It only took me 5 seconds to fry half of downtown Nacogdoches' power supply. I was running a skid steer with a mulching head, clearing around a bridge and sucked up a guide wire for a power pole. About 8 feet of the wire was flat on the ground and covered by grass and dirt. It sucked up into the head, broke and snapped back and made several wraps around a bunch of power lines, cross phasing them. Blew the transformer across the street, caught that pole on fire, melted a bunch of lines so those were all over main street and gave the boss a big headache. I'd hate to see what an EMP could do.  A lot of rural power systems are fragile as it is. If a cricket farts on a line, power goes out.


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## Real Old Man

Kauboy said:


> Hawg, the topic is about EMP relevance.
> Why do you constantly feel the need to attack people?
> There's nothing wrong with prepping for the creature comforts.
> What did we ever do before batteries and electricity? We spent enumerable hours coming up with how to invent them.
> 
> Will you attack me next, or actually contribute to the topic?


Kauboy

I think the Hawg is just pointing out the obvious. No matter how hard you prep and store things - like electric items - eventually they will all wear out be unobtainable or only available to keep specific Governmental functions going. Things like oil lamps (which can be run on any thing from coal oil to vegetable oil -) are going to be our source of light for some very long period of time. While he could have been a bit more diplomatic, his point needs to be reinforced and that goes for every facet of our daily lives.

Do I believe EMP is a major threat? No. I come at it from a logical evaluation of the facts that are available. Not from some supersticious mumbo jmbo. However, if society as we currently know it starts to break down having food for your family for only a year with no plan to grow or procure it once it's gone is sort sighted at best and only delays the agony and demise of your family.

Likewise those that think they can go it alone and not depend on their neighbors are also deluding themselves.


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## Real Old Man

Kauboy said:


> Be prepared for a reading session, but this is the best page for advice I've found: EMP Protection
> It's another child page from the site linked to on the first page a couple posts down. If you can just get through that site, you will have more knowledge about EMPs and solar storms than 90% of the population. It's real world info, not some keyboard commando or book seller.


Funny thing is most of the information is stuff written by the same individual. Not things that have been vetted thru a scientific review process. Kind of like global warming


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## Kauboy

Real Old Man said:


> Kauboy
> 
> I think the Hawg is just pointing out the obvious. No matter how hard you prep and store things - like electric items - eventually they will all wear out be unobtainable or only available to keep specific Governmental functions going. Things like oil lamps (which can be run on any thing from coal oil to vegetable oil -) are going to be our source of light for some very long period of time. While he could have been a bit more diplomatic, his point needs to be reinforced and that goes for every facet of our daily lives.
> 
> Do I believe EMP is a major threat? No. I come at it from a logical evaluation of the facts that are available. Not from some supersticious mumbo jmbo. However, if society as we currently know it starts to break down having food for your family for only a year with no plan to grow or procure it once it's gone is sort sighted at best and only delays the agony and demise of your family.
> 
> Likewise those that think they can go it alone and not depend on their neighbors are also deluding themselves.


His point can be made without insult, yet he feels he must include such. *That* was the issue.
The threat of EMP is far from "mumbo jumbo". Our intelligence agencies have confirmed that our potential enemies have included such attacks in their planning for well over a decade. Do I think ISIS will ever be capable? No, but China/Iran? Yep. The hope is that they never will, but I don't just write it off.


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## Kauboy

Real Old Man said:


> Funny thing is most of the information is stuff written by the same individual. Not things that have been vetted thru a scientific review process. Kind of like global warming


He references many reports, studies, and documents on the subject that are not his. I'm not sure how you're justifying your claim.


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## Real Old Man

the mumbo jumbo is tying EMP to the bible. As far as how I justify my claim I pulled up several of his documents and they all show being written by the same author. 

As far as EMP being a real threat both M&M and I get to a similar conclusion although thru very different processes. 

I'm sorry that you thought Hawg was being insulting. Sometimes folks tend to forget that preparing for events is a long range issue and not something that's going to come and go in a few days - like a tornado or Hurricane. 

But getting a bit back to point a faraday cage is a metal box. Now unless I'm mistaken isn't that what a lot of our automobiles are.


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## txmarine6531

Real Old Man said:


> But getting a bit back to point a faraday cage is a metal box. Now unless I'm mistaken isn't that what a lot of our automobiles are.


They are for the most part, but the ECU's and other circuitry aren't insulated from the body and chassis. Items stored in a farady cage are insulated from the container protecting them by layers or foil/plastic and whatever is used to line the container. Vehicle ECU's and circuitry are tied to the body and chassis by ground circuits, there's nothing insulating them. ECU's are sensitive, doesn't take much to fry them.


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## Ralph Rotten

A faraday cage is grounded.


The problem with a HEMP blast (high altitude EMP) is the recovery. Its like those times that you go to fix something around the house, but the thing you use to fix stuff is itself broken as well (and the knowledge you need to manufacture a new one is on your smoked pc.) All medical or manufacturing knowledge is unavailable, along with the phone you would use to call for help. It is like a conga line of broken stuff, each relying on the previous device.


But even if humans dont cause a HEMP, mother nature could do it any time she wanted. Many of the effects of a CME (corolal mass ejection) are indistinguishable from HEMP.


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## Kauboy

Real Old Man said:


> the mumbo jumbo is tying EMP to the bible. As far as how I justify my claim I pulled up several of his documents and they all show being written by the same author.
> 
> As far as EMP being a real threat both M&M and I get to a similar conclusion although thru very different processes.
> 
> I'm sorry that you thought Hawg was being insulting. Sometimes folks tend to forget that preparing for events is a long range issue and not something that's going to come and go in a few days - like a tornado or Hurricane.
> 
> But getting a bit back to point a faraday cage is a metal box. Now unless I'm mistaken isn't that what a lot of our automobiles are.


Now I understand your mumbo jumbo reference. I avoided the other thread, so I can't speak to what was said there.
Our vehicles are not sealed. The E1 pulse only needs a breach of a millimeter to get through, making the entire shell worthless as protection. Also, with the CAFE standards being changed all the time, the only way to get modern vehicles to use less gas is to make them lighter. That means less steel, more plastic.


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## Kauboy

Ralph Rotten said:


> A faraday cage is grounded.
> 
> The problem with a HEMP blast (high altitude EMP) is the recovery. Its like those times that you go to fix something around the house, but the thing you use to fix stuff is itself broken as well (and the knowledge you need to manufacture a new one is on your smoked pc.) All medical or manufacturing knowledge is unavailable, along with the phone you would use to call for help. It is like a conga line of broken stuff, each relying on the previous device.
> 
> But even if humans dont cause a HEMP, mother nature could do it any time she wanted. Many of the effects of a CME (corolal mass ejection) are indistinguishable from HEMP.


A Faraday cage is not grounded, and a grounded cage could actually be detrimental to the protections the cage is supposed to offer by acting as an amplifier to the E3 pulse. Grounding for an EMP is different than for normal electricity.
A coronal mass ejection will never have an E1 pulse element. That is the part that most modern electronics would suffer from. The E3 pulse can be generated by either source, and would have the largest affect on long lines and transformers.


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## Notsoyoung

hawgrider said:


> If your worried about electronic lights your soft. What did we ever do before batterys and electricity. Your ancestors are laughing now.


Our ancestors used electric lights as soon as they could get their hands on them. My ancestors are shaking their heads in disbelief at those who think that electricity is no big deal.


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## Indyharleyguy

read one second after or emp attacks and solar storms. 1st is fiction but very realistic. 2nd is written by a phd .


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## Ralph Rotten

The thing about EMP or HEMP is that it only has to happen once, and everything with buttons will stop working forever. Sure, they can bring in replacements from elsewhere on the planet, but how are you going to call in that order when every transistor for a thousand miles is fried? How do you pay for anything when your money was just defragged? We would be so blind that China could march right in and occupy us for 2 weeks before we even realized we were under attack. It doesn;t have to happen all the time, once is more than enough.

I would love to find some more of this lead sheeting that I have. They use thin sheets of lead to shield military vehicles, and when they tear apart the trailers that stuff gets salvaged. It is terribly convenient to have lead sheets when building a safe box or shielding a large area. I'd love to get some more of that stuff.


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## Indyharleyguy

Maine-Marine said:


> In my humble opinion.. much will depend on the time of year....
> 
> if it happens winter time.... the death rate will be much higher because people will not be able to convert to wood/coal for heat... if we had an EMP in January-there will be a massive die off in the north...mostly in cities... rural areas in places like Maine, West Virginia, North Dakota will be better off since most folks have a back up heat source.
> 
> food, fuel, distribution will stop
> 
> there will be a good side effect to winter in that there will be no zombie motorcycle gangs zooming around in 4 feet of snow...
> FEMA perdition is 90% dead within 1 year.


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## SittingElf

I have a small faraday cage that houses a 64GB iPad that has every important document my family possesses scanned into PDF format on it. It also has about 24GB of digitized books of all kinds including survival, cooking, defense, reload data, gardening, and other fiction and non-fiction books. Additionally the cage houses a 2TB External USB Drive that has every picture we have ever taken or received on it. It took days to scan the hard copy pictures from old albums, but now it's easy to add to with digital pics from SLR's and iPhones. 

I will probably put an older MacBook in the cage as well soon in order to access the external drive in the future. Charging it will have to be with limited use of a generator when it is running for other reasons, but the iPad can be charged using my BioLite stoves. 

I might be able to channel enough spare amps from my small solar array to power the laptop as well, but it is critical that my aquaponics pumps have absolute priority or my fish will die.

Cheers


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## sideKahr

Ralph Rotten said:


> ...I would love to find some more of this lead sheeting that I have. They use thin sheets of lead to shield military vehicles, and when they tear apart the trailers that stuff gets salvaged. It is terribly convenient to have lead sheets when building a safe box or shielding a large area. I'd love to get some more of that stuff.


Ralph, lead is a poor conductor, and would not be effective for building a faraday cage to protect from EMP, if that is what you meant. Copper is the standard for good conductivity, aluminum is 61% as effective as copper, but lead is only 7% as conductive as copper.


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## Targetshooter

Joe Smith said:


> So, The Lord seems to be annoyed by me, but I've been struck by lightning twice. The second time it hit the car as I was driving. The windshield was destroyed but other than that the car is relatively fine. Occasionally the driver's door will lock itself, and not open, even with the key.
> 
> Explain to me why this is different. I would think that emp wouldn't have more voltage than a lightning bolt. Perhaps we worry too much about the little things.


 third time is a charm ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, look out ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, everything does happen in three's ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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