# Armed officer on site for Florida shooting, doesn't even enter building



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

What is wrong with this coward? He obviously heard the gunshots inside and was armed. It was his duty to do all he could to stop the gunman. I can't imagine why he didn't even enter the building. He must just be a total coward. 

Guns for self defense do ZERO good if the person freezes up when SHTF.


----------



## Randy Lahey (Feb 23, 2018)

True! These armed guards need bravery to succeed


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

And you have been in exactly how many gun battles?



mlhouse said:


> What is wrong with this coward? He obviously heard the gunshots inside and was armed. It was his duty to do all he could to stop the gunman. I can't imagine why he didn't even enter the building. He must just be a total coward.
> 
> Guns for self defense do ZERO good if the person freezes up when SHTF.


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

Slippy said:


> And you have been in exactly how many gun battles?


I've never signed up to be a police officer and sworn to protect people.

But every time I've sworn to do something on my honor I have done it.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

mlhouse said:


> I've never signed up to be a police officer and sworn to protect people.
> 
> But every time I've sworn to do something on my honor I have done it.


Then the correct answer would be zero?


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

Slippy said:


> Then the correct answer would be zero?


Why would my background matter? It makes it OK for that officer to let all these kids die because I myself have never been in a firefight? That is terrible logic on your part.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

mlhouse said:


> Why would my background matter? It makes it OK for that officer to let all these kids die because I myself have never been in a firefight? That is terrible logic on your part.


The officer did not "let those kids die". A murdering mentally ill evil person killed them.

When you have been "the Man in the Arena" you have earned the right to question those who have also been in the arena. The bottom line is, you don't know shit about shit that that man encountered.

I like to refer to the poem below...

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

@mlhouse

My advice to you is to take what I write and learn, to attempt a debate will not end well for you.

Your friend,

Slippy :vs_wave:

PS Others who criticize this deputy I know have engaged in a fire fight, they earned the right to question him.. all I asked of you is IF you have been in a gun battle. You never answered. Simple.


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

I don't need to have been in a fire fight to know that that man was ill-suited to be doing what he was doing.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

mlhouse said:


> I don't need to have been in a fire fight to know that that man was ill-suited to be doing what he was doing.


Are you sure?

Please tell us what you would have done? What is your weapon of choice? What tactics and strategies would you have employed?

How is your marksmanship at 100, 200, 300 yards under fire/stress?

Do tell tough guy...


----------



## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

Been shot by a sling shot when I was 7... technically that is a firefight. 

Slippy doesn’t need my support, but he is right. It is easy to judge someone else. It is also illogical to risk your life for someone else’s. Logic has nothing to do with it. Courage and logic are not related most often.


----------



## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)




----------



## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

I've seen guys freeze up when using the MILES system and blanks.
Hell of a time to figure out you aren't cut out for the job. I'm pissed off that it happened, I'm really pissed about what that sheriff had to say.
But I do see the probability of one more death associated with the school shooting in the future.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Coastie dad said:


> I've seen guys freeze up when using the MILES system and blanks.
> Hell of a time to figure out you aren't cut out for the job. I'm pissed off that it happened, I'm really pissed about what that sheriff had to say.
> But I do see the probability of one more death associated with the school shooting in the future.


The sheriff is loving this, the incompetency of his department can now be deflected toward this one man who did not engage. This whole thing stinks of shat.

And because of that, lawmakers are attempting to enact laws that will affect the innocent. FUBAR


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Supreme Court has ruled that LE has *NO DUTY TO PROTECT*. Yes that is right none, nada. They don't really try most times.

They just have to clean up the mess and persecute whomever :they don't like at the time , whether they are the guilty/innocent, someone they don't like , or are just handy to blame at the time.

Serve and *protect * is a bunch of bull $#!T!


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Mad Trapper said:


> Supreme Court has ruled that LE has *NO DUTY TO PROTECT*. Yes that is right none, nada. They don't really try most times.
> 
> They just have to clean up the mess and persecute whomever :they don't like at the time , whether they are the guilty/innocent, someone they don't like , or are just handy to blame at the time.
> 
> Serve and *protect * is a bunch of bull $#!T!


Dammit, you beat me to it.

No officer of the law is hired to put himself between you and a bullet.
Those that do are heroes among men, but they do so for their own reasons, not for the job.
Law enforcement officers are hired to do just that, enforce the law. That normally means showing up after the law has been broken, dealing with the aftermath, and finding those responsible.

If we want armed protection for our children, we need people that can be trusted to fulfill their duty, and make it clear that their duty is to take the bullet or kill the one shooting them. Plenty of people are willing to do this, and do so daily. Police officers just might not be the right ones.
This is a big reason that the army vet option makes good sense. They were willing to sacrifice for their country. They will be willing to sacrifice for the most innocent among that country.


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Slippy said:


> And you have been in exactly how many gun battles?


I don't even know where I'm at on this thread if I even commented before.

It doesn't take gun battles or hand hand combat, it takes the warrior spirit. As much military training as I have done and correction officer training that I have done and witnessed is that if you have the warrior Spirit you will Rush towards the danger.

I don't care who you are or what you are as much training as you had you can freeze does it make you a coward no not if you learn from it and react and overcome it

The second time that I was assaulted in the prison a female officer five feet away did nothing. A trainee from across the housing unit came running and assisted me. The female next to me never did help at all never less The Prisoner was subdued and may have been subject to some handling.

The point is you've got to react if you are a cop you do not have the luxury to second-guess your role or job people's lives depend on you.

Personally I would like to punch the dude in the face. And if I heard right he resigned which in my opinion he should have been flat-out fired.

When civilian lives are on the line I don't think cops have the luxury to be anything except to react in the public interest.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Kauboy said:


> Dammit, you beat me to it.
> 
> No officer of the law is hired to put himself between you and a bullet.
> Those that do are heroes among men, but they do so for their own reasons, not for the job.
> ...


Maybe that is part of the problem? When law enforcement stop loving their community enough to lay their life's down to protect it the Maybe something jacked up.

What if soldiers on the battlefield decided hey it's not worth my life and lay down their firearms?

To me those cops are out right cowards I don't care if it offends you or anybody else it's my opinion.

I guess maybe it is the little by little that society recedes and those that prepare plan to battle those that do not.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

No fire fights under my belt but I have an opinion. An unarmed coach ran towards danger and died trying to protect children. A trained and armed LEO hid like a bitch. Now, I'm sure he'll die a bit every day until his last breath. As a parent of a young child I'm furious to learn of his inaction. Further, I have been and hope to remain blessed not to have firsthand experience. BUT ... this isn't armchair quarterbacking how SWAT or the FBI or the AFT handled/bungled an operation. This seems to the layman as a gross dereliction of duty to protect children. Period.

Slippy, I think you're the bees knees but you've got this one wrong. Flame on if you must, brother.


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Hemi45 said:


> No fire fights under my belt but I have an opinion. An unarmed coach ran towards danger and died trying to protect children. A trained and armed LEO hid like a bitch. Now, I'm sure he'll die a bit every day until his last breath. As a parent of a young child I'm furious to learn of his inaction. Further, I have been and hope to remain blessed not to have firsthand experience. BUT ... this isn't armchair quarterbacking how SWAT or the FBI or the AFT handled/bungled an operation. This seems to the layman as a gross dereliction of duty to protect children. Period.
> 
> Slippy, I think you're the bees knees but you've got this one wrong. Flame on if you must, brother.


Totally agree

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> Dammit, you beat me to it.
> 
> No officer of the law is hired to put himself between you and a bullet.
> Those that do are heroes among men, but they do so for their own reasons, not for the job.
> ...


You got that right.

Some LE are the very best humans who will do above and beyond. Unfortunately many are lazy worthless POS that give the good a bad rep. Or evn worse use their badge to persecute the innocent and/or those who expose them. The latter make all the former stink just as bad.


----------



## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

We discussed this at work today. Seriously discussed. Those of you who know the type of work I do will understand why it was seriously discussed. 
I will not carry at work. Nope. Too close proximity and I spend too much time in physical contact with the heathens. But i agreed to having rapid access to a locked one..
My other teacher flat out said no. She doesn't feel confident with one. She told them she had no problem with me going on the offense while she got the kids herded to safety. When she told them she would have no problem trying to ram scissors through someone's eye, you should have seen the look on the therapists faces.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

MaterielGeneral said:


> Maybe that is part of the problem? When law enforcement stop loving their community enough to lay their life's down to protect it the Maybe something jacked up.
> 
> What if soldiers on the battlefield decided hey it's not worth my life and lay down their firearms?
> 
> ...


Perhaps that's more due to society's expectation of what an officer should do.
You see, it has never been the case that an officer was expected to endanger himself to save a civilian.
Ever...
So don't think that's a "back in the day" cop thing versus a modern cop thing.
It's more of a "when men were men" kinda thing.

Due to the poor benefits we offer cops these days, and the low application rates, is it any wonder that we are seeing less than courageous people taking the job?
They are being told it's just a job like any other, oh... and they get a gun.
And we hire any that will apply.

It isn't anything about the job that changed.
The ones standing behind the shield just aren't of the same caliber that they once were.


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Kauboy said:


> Perhaps that's more due to society's expectation of what an officer should do.
> You see, it has never been the case that an officer was expected to endanger himself to save a civilian.
> Ever...
> So don't think that's a "back in the day" cop thing versus a modern cop thing.
> ...


I've always Stood Beside the theory that if you can't do the job properly don't do the job at all step aside let somebody else do it.

There is always somebody willing to do your job. You/anybody are not special. If you are not willing to do what the public needs you are expendable and will be replaced just like a soldier. I don't give a s*** I will argue this all night long.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

MaterielGeneral said:


> I've always Stood Beside the theory that if you can't do the job properly don't do the job at all step aside let somebody else do it.
> 
> There is always somebody willing to do your job. You/anybody are not special. If you are not willing to do what the public needs you are expendable and will be replaced just like a soldier. I don't give a s*** I will argue this all night long.


Feel free to argue it all you wish.
It just isn't reality.
We can't get enough cops that are willing to do the job the way *you* think they should, so we get the rest as well.
If we could ascertain the diligence of all officers down to knowing with 100% certainty that they would stand in the line of fire every time, and fire those that didn't, we'd be left with about 20% of the force in each department, and crime would run rampant.
It's just that simple.


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> Perhaps that's more due to society's expectation of what an officer should do.
> You see, it has never been the case that an officer was expected to endanger himself to save a civilian.
> Ever...
> So don't think that's a "back in the day" cop thing versus a modern cop thing.
> ...


What bothers me more is LE just not doing their job. That is what they are paid for....

For instance.....walking home one evening I got hit by a hit and run driver, could have been killed, little to no investigation. My barn was burgalarized and the thiefs left LOTS of evidence but were scared off, since nothing stolen NO NONE NADA investigation. I should have went to the town selectmen with that one. Another.......well a few more incompetent asses in LE collecting pay for shoddy/incompetent work. If you piss them off better get them fired or you get put on a "shit list". And yes local and state LE have shit lists. That is the status of LE today.


----------



## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> Perhaps that's more due to society's expectation of what an officer should do.
> You see, it has never been the case that an officer was expected to endanger himself to save a civilian.
> Ever...
> So don't think that's a "back in the day" cop thing versus a modern cop thing.
> ...


Back in the day....

When affirmative action reared it's ugly head in the law enforcement agencies....

It was decided the qualifications needed to be lowered so minorities could become cops.

See...before, they couldn't pass the tests and the liberals complained there weren't enough minority cops.

Make all the testing easier.

Now...the new testing just didn't apply to minorities, it applied to everyone.

The result was less intelligent and less fit law enforcement officers....of all flavors.

Added to that was....the good ones decided to get out because they didn't want to trust their lives to someone not up to the task. And, not just minorities...anyone who was able to get in with lower test scores.

Fast forward a few years and add in all the liberal handcuffs put on them.

Here we are......


----------



## redhawk (May 7, 2014)

All I want to say is, I was not there and do not know the circumstances around the SRO and why he did not engage the shooter. I have been in one firefight and the entire time I was scared but I did not leave or disengage the shooter. I was relieved when the fight was over, I did not apprehend the guy but he was caught about 10 hours later. The other guard that was with me "froze" and I must admit that I could not trust him after that to have my six...JM2C


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Coastie dad said:


> But I do see the probability of one more death associated with the school shooting in the future.


Yup. But first I think he will see those kids faces in his dreams every night for years.
Of course, he will begin to drink very heavily every night so he can at least pass out, and hopefully not have The Dreams.
Then, one night, the barrel of the gun will be in his mouth.
Whether he pulls the trigger or not is up to a Higher Power.

I know how these things work.
And that's all I've got to say.


----------



## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

mlhouse said:


> I've never signed up to be a police officer and sworn to protect people.
> 
> But every time I've sworn to do something on my honor I have done it.


Been a cop going on 27 years now, I swore to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, and I took that oath twice, but not once to protect anyone.


----------



## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Mad Trapper said:


> Supreme Court has ruled that LE has *NO DUTY TO PROTECT*. Yes that is right none, nada. They don't really try most times.
> 
> They just have to clean up the mess and persecute whomever :they don't like at the time , whether they are the guilty/innocent, someone they don't like , or are just handy to blame at the time.
> 
> Serve and *protect * is a bunch of bull $#!T!


Actually, it's a catchy slogan. No different than "be all you can be" for the Army and "the few and the proud" for the Marines. To serve and to protect us just a slogan. Bodyguards protect their employers, cops don't. If you want protection and you can't afford to hire a bodyguard, get a gun. It's a lot of fun and lot cheaper than a bodyguard.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

To be fair , we don't know all the facts. Department rules of engagement ect. The office would be called out no madder what he did. Witch hunt going on to cover the asses of everyone that knew about this person and did nothing. It appears they not only did nothing but were covering for him , to avoid doing anything.


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Ragnarök said:


> Been shot by a sling shot when I was 7... technically that is a firefight.
> 
> Slippy doesn't need my support, but he is right. It is easy to judge someone else. It is also illogical to risk your life for someone else's. Logic has nothing to do with it. Courage and logic are not related most often.


We used to have BB gun wars. No shooting in the head or gonads. If you had a crossman only 3 pumps.

None of us are blind, even in 1 eye.


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Yup. But first I think he will see those kids faces in his dreams every night for years.
> Of course, he will begin to drink very heavily every night so he can at least pass out, and hopefully not have The Dreams.
> Then, one night, the barrel of the gun will be in his mouth.
> Whether he pulls the trigger or not is up to a Higher Power.
> ...


Thank you for your service RPD.

I won't try to open old wounds but I know a bunch of kids just a bit older than I that passed away young or are not the same.

Peace be with You


----------



## Randy Lahey (Feb 23, 2018)

Slippy said:


> And you have been in exactly how many gun battles?


Doesn't matter, you have to do your job! Bravery is the key here


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops


NEW LONDON, Conn. -- A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city.

The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court’s decision that the city did not discriminate against Robert Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.

“This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America against people of a certain class,” Jordan said today from his Waterford home. “I maintain you have no more control over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your gender or anything else.”

He said he does not plan to take any further legal action.

Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.

Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average.

Jordan alleged his rejection from the police force was discrimination. He sued the city, saying his civil rights were violated because he was denied equal protection under the law.

But the U.S. District Court found that New London had “shown a rational basis for the policy.” In a ruling dated Aug. 23, the 2nd Circuit agreed. The court said the policy might be unwise but was a rational way to reduce job turnover.

Jordan has worked as a prison guard since he took the test.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Randy Lahey said:


> Doesn't matter, you have to do your job! Bravery is the key here


Evidently you missed many of the posts here regarding the FACT that Law Enforcement Officers have no legal obligation to protect individuals.

Their job is to arrest.

People listen and listen well,

Much of this is media false flag agenda driven shit. They will do anything and blame anyone to further their agenda of gun confiscation. They will not put blame on the person who did this, the murdering mentally ill Nikolas Cruz. They will deflect as much as they can.


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Slippy said:


> Evidently you missed many of the posts here regarding the FACT that Law Enforcement Officers have no legal obligation to protect individuals.
> 
> Their job is to arrest.
> 
> ...


Slippy while we are on this why do the police need swat teams and military armored trucks if at their whim they can decide not to engage, or whom to engage? I mean , if a nut case is threatening they can be a sheep, but if a bank is being robbed ($$$$$) they are all in.

The police were never to be a military force but recently they are all puffed up and posturing. In fact our Constitution prevents (used to) this sort of thing, and leads back to our civil rights to be able to protect ourselves from both foreign and internal terror and treason.

P.S. I see the trolls are out from under the bridges, this will be fun!


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

No madder what really happen, They need someone to hang and tag this officer goes down no madder what. That is how agenda's work.


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

So WTF?

I have been a student in high school and colleges. The former was early on and we had guns, we didn't shoot any human being, we brought home food.

At college guns were a no no, why? Kent State? But that was not students nor staff/faculty............

Now every campus is a gun free killing zone. I will thank you liberals.

I'm not a trained anti-terrorist, but I've hunted since 6 and a good marksman, so why do I, have to be a sheep when I enter a school or GOOBERMENT facility? The GOOBERMENT sure won't protect me.


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

So how to prevent the root cause of this problem? I agree the shooter being a lunatic who had a gun is the problem. 

I think Trump's "teachers should get bonuses to carry guns" was him just talking out of his ass again. Are the taxpayers going to pay additional taxes for that?


----------



## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Wow, I'm really conflicted on this one. I've learned LE has no responsibility to protect. Kinda like that Lifelock commercial on TV, where the bank "guard" does nothing during a robbery & when questioned, states he is a security monitor. So if that is the case, the school cop had no duty to protect the kids.

But then like stated above, if that is the case, why SWAT teams & why all this expensive military gear? Why would the boss, the sheriff, state the school cop should have engaged the shooter? Are cops taught to ONLY pull their weapon for self defense?

@Slippy, I normally agree with you but I'm struggling here. I've never been in a firefight but don't see why that is relevant. I expected more from this school cop & could care less if he had a legal duty to save those kids from being killed... he had a moral duty as a human being. Just having this discussion makes me want to throw up.


----------



## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

I agree he did the wrong thing, but everyone is lining up to throw this guy under the bus including his own administration. I'm wondering if he wasn't trained at some point to establish a perimeter and wait for backup before proceeding inside. The guy had enough time to retire so I"m also wondering if he was one of those ROD officers (retired on duty)

There was a sheriff on fox the other night who pointed out that types of officers tend to get put in the schools. They tend to be the ones that connect with kids, ones that are at the end of their careers, not the types that lead or even participate on swat teams. Maybe its time to change what type of officers we station in schools.


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

mlhouse said:


> So how to prevent the root cause of this problem? I agree the shooter being a lunatic who had a gun is the problem.
> 
> I think Trump's "teachers should get bonuses to carry guns" was him just talking out of his ass again. Are the taxpayers going to pay additional taxes for that?


GEEZZEEEE!!!

I was a responsible student who had guns in high school. If some POS was loose like this we would have ventilated him right quickly. That was before safe warm feelly "gun safe zones"/aka killing fields thanks to LIBERALS!

It's not guns, it's nutcases/aka liberals.

Got that


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

Mad Trapper said:


> GEEZZEEEE!!!
> 
> I was a responsible student who had guns in high school. If some POS was loose like this we would have ventilated him right quickly. That was before safe warm feelly "gun safe zones"/aka killing fields thanks to LIBERALS!
> 
> ...


So you're saying the shooter was a liberal? I have not seen that anywhere. Not saying it's not true, but I just haven't seen that yet.


----------



## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

What gets me is the POS cop knew deep down inside that he would never rise up to a threat. He's a fricken coward and knew from the start that he wouldn't do a dam thing. Yet he took the position thinking he could milk the system with his gravy job til retirement. Taking the position from another that may have done what was necessary. 

Taking an oath, having combat experience or being shot at means nothing. If you don't truly have it in your heart and soul to stand up and do what's right. Get the frick out of the way and let those that will step up. 

The whole it's not my job to protect and serve yet I took the job and oath. Is just a liberal cop out to what we all know is right or wrong. STOP IT.


----------



## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

> Police officers guard home of deputy assigned to Florida HS who 'never went in' during shooting: report


Police officers guard home of deputy assigned to Florida HS who ?never went in? during shooting: report | Fox News


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

mlhouse said:


> So you're saying the shooter was a liberal? I have not seen that anywhere. Not saying it's not true, but I just haven't seen that yet.


Want to bet: raised liberal, meds/drugs or withdrawl, did not have a real mother and father, never grew up with a responsible ( mam/dad) that taught the little cretein about hunting/guns.

F/U liberal TROLL!!!

I am pissed off with at least two Trolls the last two days. If I'm wrong sorry mods................


----------



## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

Ok.. I’ll vent on this then analyze. The guy is a f’ing coward. Despite any law or backing he had a moral obligation to do something as a human being knowing that children are being killed. Yeah, the media will make hay over it and maybe deflect from the shooters culpability and also might make it tough for the argument for concealed carry by teachers. Bottom line, he should have charged the building. As was pointed out in another thread, after columbine, the process changed from wait to assess to enter immediately. This is now SOP for all forces. 

So there are number findings in law from the lower courts all throughout the Supreme Court about the police having no duty to protect. The DC case is preeminent in this as are a number of cases in Colorado and other jusidictions. I only know of once case that specifically address arrest but I don’t have the full details. Calogrides v. Mobile, 846 (no liability for failure to arrest or to retain arrested person in custody)

All other cases are regarding “protect”.

So what an see with this is going to be the argument about arrest. This guy, the sheriffs office and anyone else will get sued and hung (appropriately) so I will be interested in the arguments. The police, although they have no duty to protect, do in fact have a duty to arrest during and after the commission of a crime. I would argue that this coward failed to arrest or take action during the commitment of a crime and is therefore liable. 

Regardless how the courts find, everyone associated with him and the office will be found giuity in the court of public opinion. 

Being the son of a cop (my father is long since gone) this pissed me off to no end. I know my father and probably 99.99999% of Leo’s would have charged the building. I’ll bet that the same % of people on this blog would have as well, if armed, to protect the children. 

Morally, as a parent of a HS student, I’m beyond pissed.


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I'd love to know what his political affiliation is.


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

Slippy said:


> Then the correct answer would be zero?


Just FYI, Donald Trump also called this man a coward for not going in. Donald Trump has been in zero gun battles. So me and Donald are like thinkers here. You going to ridicule Donald Trump, too?


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

mlhouse said:


> So you're saying the shooter was a liberal? I have not seen that anywhere. Not saying it's not true, but I just haven't seen that yet.


His social media showed him to be an AntiFa and BLM supporter.


----------



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

mlhouse said:


> What is wrong with this coward? He obviously heard the gunshots inside and was armed. It was his duty to do all he could to stop the gunman. I can't imagine why he didn't even enter the building. He must just be a total coward.
> 
> Guns for self defense do ZERO good if the person freezes up when SHTF.


He will never live it down, and his career is over; so that is what it has cost him. He will always be remembered, as a pusillanimous man, empty of courage.


----------



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

mlhouse said:


> So how to prevent the root cause of this problem? I agree the shooter being a lunatic who had a gun is the problem.
> 
> I think Trump's "teachers should get bonuses to carry guns" was him just talking out of his ass again. Are the taxpayers going to pay additional taxes for that?


Yes the taxpayers should pay extra for that, maybe $1,200 a year extra. That would be a pretty cheap investment, only $100 a month more, per armed teacher. And the taxpayer should pay for any shooting classes needed by them to qualify.


----------



## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

I don't have children and I will never have children. It's a life choice. 90% of my local taxes go to the schools already, I don't want to pay anymore. That's not really fair. Of course I don't want kids to die, but it wasn't my choice to have them. I feel I shouldn't have to pay to school them, or pay even more to protect them.

As far as the subject goes, I've never been in a gunbattle either. I would hope and believe I wouldn't freeze like this guy did. Regardless I feel everyone can judge him, and I am. What I hope happens to him, I will not post here


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

MisterMills357 said:


> Yes the taxpayers should pay extra for that, maybe $1,200 a year extra. That would be a pretty cheap investment, only $100 a month more, per armed teacher. And the taxpayer should pay for any shooting classes needed by them to qualify.


We already pay for police officers, though. Maybe they could just hire police officers to do the job who wouldn't be afraid to actually do their job.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

mlhouse said:


> We already pay for police officers, though. Maybe they could just hire police officers to do the job who wouldn't be afraid to actually do their job.


It'd be cheaper to pay willing teachers 100/month than hire more cops. More cops means more salaries, more benefits and more pensions.

Then again, if we had teachers like my civics teacher and my in school suspension teachers, they wouldn't need guns. Chuck Norris looked more like Justin Bieber compared to them! :vs_laugh:


----------



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

mlhouse said:


> We already pay for police officers, though. Maybe they could just hire police officers to do the job who wouldn't be afraid to actually do their job.


A thought came to me. What was the American method during The Revolutionary War, or The Indian Wars? Everybody and his wife had access to a loaded gun, and America won against the British and the Indian, by using equal and greater force. The idea of having armed teachers merely follows that tradition; the American one, that if you are in danger, you have a right to be armed, and to kill an attacker. And that to me, is superior to having more cops-- much better, in my opinion.


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

as bad as this sounds.. one of my first thoughts was .. Well having a GOOD GUY with a gun did not help...but it also did not hurt

my second thought... 
“A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once.......”

after all the bad press this guy is getting - rest assured he wishes he had gone into the building even if he died


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> as bad as this sounds.. one of my first thoughts was .. Well having a GOOD GUY with a gun did not help...but it also did not hurt
> 
> my second thought...
> "A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once......."
> ...


Maybe, or maybe his is akin to Dr. Smith of Lost in Space.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

For all the posturing here, NO ONE knows how they are going to act the first time rounds start snapping past their head.
No one who has not experienced that knows whether they will return fire or turn and run.
Oh, you may think you do, but you really don't.


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> For all the posturing here, NO ONE knows how they are going to act the first time rounds start snapping past their head.
> No one who has not experienced that knows whether they will return fire or turn and run.
> Oh, you may think you do, but you really don't.


I have heard this a lot and I am sure it is also true about the second and third time rounds start flying past your head


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> as bad as this sounds.. one of my first thoughts was .. Well having a GOOD GUY with a gun did not help...but it also did not hurt
> 
> my second thought...
> "A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once......."
> ...


This is kinda the way I am. I would rather die fighting like a mad man than be branded a coward like a couple correction officers that I worked with.

I made my peace with God/Jesus and stopped fearing death. I respect it, but I do not fear it.

Something is going on, these last few months with shootings and cop killings. I think they are going to do a push.

But whatever, this topic became boring. What preps have you done? Do you have a cache?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

MaterielGeneral said:


> This is kinda the way I am. I would rather die fighting like a mad man than be branded a coward like a couple correction officers that I worked with.
> 
> I made my peace with God/Jesus and stopped fearing death. I respect it, but I do not fear it


exactly.. I do not fear death.. I fear NOT doing my duty

.. if I died my family would have my military retirement, social security, insurance, other retirement account money.... of course my kids would not have my guidance but they would be taken care of and have a place to live and food to eat


----------



## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

rice paddy daddy said:


> For all the posturing here, NO ONE knows how they are going to act the first time rounds start snapping past their head.
> No one who has not experienced that knows whether they will return fire or turn and run.
> Oh, you may think you do, but you really don't.


I've never been in combat or had rounds go snapping past my head, but I can guarantee you I'd go in to help those kids... armed or not. We aren't talking about facing your fears in some God awful country, fighting some gooks or ******** that aren't threatening my family or even my country. That takes a brave man. But there is no bravery in saving others, especially children, being butchered... that is normal, human behavior. I've actually considered this many times when working with our church youth. My job is to protect them & I'd gladly give up my life for them. Shit, I'm getting old & hurt a lot. I look forward to meeting my Savior.

As @Slippy would say, I shit you not.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

mlhouse said:


> Just FYI, Donald Trump also called this man a coward for not going in. Donald Trump has been in zero gun battles. So me and Donald are like thinkers here. You going to ridicule Donald Trump, too?


Yes, I will ridicule Donald Trump when he needs ridiculing.

I'm still waiting for your tactical and strategic plan on what you would have done, tough guy.

Matter of fact, why don't you grab the same handgun that this reserve officer supposedly had and I'll grab the same AR-15 that the shooter had and we can see who wins in a tactical battle from distances of more than 30 yards.

Willing to put your money where your mouth is tough guy?

(You still don't know shit about shit about what this officer went through at the scene...)


----------



## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

The Trumpster didn't strap on a gun and badge as part of his job either, with that protect and serve clause.

Try again.


----------



## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

why was this chickensh%t allowed to retire?
Why was he not fired and prosecuted for cowardice, derelection, or something??

He goes away with a fat pension while kids died!!


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

******* said:


> I've never been in combat or had rounds go snapping past my head, but I can guarantee you I'd go in to help those kids... armed or not. We aren't talking about facing your fears in some God awful country, fighting some gooks or ******** that aren't threatening my family or even my country. That takes a brave man. But there is no bravery in saving others, especially children, being butchered... that is normal, human behavior. I've actually considered this many times when working with our church youth. My job is to protect them & I'd gladly give up my life for them. Shit, I'm getting old & hurt a lot. I look forward to meeting my Savior.
> 
> As @Slippy would say, I shit you not.


I am having a bit of fun with new tough guy mlhouse but I am also not going to judge this man until I see all of the evidence.

So I posed this question to the only person I give one shit about.

I asked Mrs Slippy if she thinks I would have engaged the shooter. Her immediate and resounding answer was "Absolutely, I have no doubt that you would have engaged the shooter immediately and you would have saved lives. I know that for a fact".

That is the only thing that I care about in this thread, what SHE thinks about ME!

Therefore, I will not judge this man until all the facts come out.


----------



## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

******* said:


> I've never been in combat or had rounds go snapping past my head, but I can guarantee you I'd go in to help those kids... armed or not. We aren't talking about facing your fears in some God awful country, fighting some gooks or ******** that aren't threatening my family or even my country. That takes a brave man. But there is no bravery in saving others, especially children, being butchered... that is normal, human behavior. I've actually considered this many times when working with our church youth. My job is to protect them & I'd gladly give up my life for them. Shit, I'm getting old & hurt a lot. I look forward to meeting my Savior.
> 
> As @Slippy would say, I shit you not.


Correction .... "this, I shit you not".


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

mlhouse said:


> What is wrong with this coward? He obviously heard the gunshots inside and was armed. It was his duty to do all he could to stop the gunman. I can't imagine why he didn't even enter the building. He must just be a total coward.
> 
> Guns for self defense do ZERO good if the person freezes up when SHTF.


I'm still sorting through the ramifications. If his boss man was in charge of sending the cops to the crazy kids house 36 times..with nothing done..he probably aint got much room to nag at the old rubber gun stationed at the school. Who hired the guy? The Sheriff is a goofy left wing liberal. He needs his rectum removed or fired. Fortunately the old guy has retired and prob be a muli millionare counting the law suits..book and movie deals..TV shows etc. Our world has went crazy.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

******* said:


> I've never been in combat or had rounds go snapping past my head, but I can guarantee you I'd go in to help those kids... armed or not. We aren't talking about facing your fears in some God awful country, fighting some gooks or ******** that aren't threatening my family or even my country. That takes a brave man. But there is no bravery in saving others, especially children, being butchered... that is normal, human behavior. I've actually considered this many times when working with our church youth. My job is to protect them & I'd gladly give up my life for them. Shit, I'm getting old & hurt a lot. I look forward to meeting my Savior.
> 
> As @Slippy would say, I shit you not.


With respect, you really can't know.
The physiological changes that your body will go through during those first few seconds will light you up like a Christmas tree.
If you aren't prepared for it, and trained to handle it, your fight or flight response will take over and guide your decisions.
If you've never done stress training, you haven't experienced this, and it will be an overwhelming feeling.
Fear, anger, despair, rage, futility, apparent time dilation, all of these things and more will hit you all at once like a Mac truck.
You need to be ready to deal with that, and unless you train for it, you literally cannot know how you will respond.
Most officers have this feeling a few times over the course of their career.
A rookie may not have ever felt it. Even a veteran may not. Depends on the situations they've had to deal with.

We don't know what this cop has been through to know if he's ever felt before what he felt that day.

For that reason, I can't judge him yet.

Physiology and psychology can easily override your normal mind/body control. The brain's default is survival.
It will put conscious decisions on the back burner if you haven't trained to push through it. It will later feel like you were on "auto-pilot".

The best any of us can say is, we "strongly hope" that we will have the courage and wherewithal to run towards the gunfire when everything in our brain tells us to run away.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Hear hear. Double dittos. When the flight or fight thing kicks in things change instantly. Training is our best pal . Get enough of it and the Bod goes on autopilot and allows distractions to be tuned out. That's why I think the Lord is giving us so many highly capable recent young war vets to be our newest version of LEOs. If they aint bat shit crazy they make great cops.


----------



## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

He turned tail faster then the ARVN did!
Should have been fragged...
I heard he had one of those "French" guns.


----------



## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Wow...A ton of good posts here and I think there are good positions on all the sides.

So let me add some observations:

In the military, just like LE I assume, You never know who your going to get. The hero that rushes headlong into the fight, The thinker who applies logic to a decision, or the coward who flees when the bullets get close

So how do you handle this? Training, Discipline, honor, and fear.

Training so that the immediate act is one of muscle memory, which can lead to the next degree of actions.
Discipline to apply your knowledge and thought process to overcome your immediate emotional response whch can be fight or flight.
Honor to place the mission above self and to drive towards the objective and finally....
Fear...Not the primal Fear type, but rather the fear tied to failure...to loss of mission...

THis is not out of a text book. This is straight from my head and heart while I type these words.

Someone may have already diagnosed it and wrote about it.... but the bottom line is this.

Security officers who are not trained as soldiers , are more than likely ill equipped to handle these types of encounters and no one knows how they will react to the sound of guns. IT becomes a matter of their natural fight or flight emotional reaction.

The military is setup with what is known as a fighting leader...who will lead by example and without needing clear direction himself. Law enforcement does not have this.

I have seen experienced, trained soldiers balk and show fear, and a couple to be down right befuddled into a heaping mess. Never saw one run away unhinged. I am not too quick to label....nor am I too quick to assume. I expect others to act in ways I cannot anticipate.


----------



## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

This guy was a long time LE
Surely he received training in all sorts of scenarios.
He was at the school to protect the school, students and teachers.
He was a coward
Hope he suck starts a shotgun--- soon!


----------



## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

tango said:


> This guy was a long time LE
> Surely he received training in all sorts of scenarios.
> He was at the school to protect the school, students and teachers.
> He was a coward
> Hope he suck starts a shotgun--- soon!


I'm sure no matter what, he is dying a little each and every day. I hope he finds peace and I hope others learn from him.


----------



## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

I still think y'all aren't comparing apples to apples. IMO, you can't compare this situation, where you know kids are being massacred, to the military fighting some enemy or LE making say a drug raid. Of course in combat or some LE scenarios there could and would be a natural desire for flight... I agree & understand that. But likewise, if kids are being butchered, for almost the whole population the natural instinct is protection... fight.

IMO, what this guy did was extremely unusual. What the ROTC cadet did, what the coach did, what the teachers did... that is a normal human response. By no means am I saying I'm a blowhard hero wannabe. Just saying I, like everyone here, would have gone into that school.


----------



## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Old SF Guy said:


> I'm sure no matter what, he is dying a little each and every day. I hope he finds peace and I hope others learn from him.


I don't see him finding peace on this side of heaven. My biggest concern is for his family, that went from having him known as an award winning cop to being a coward who allowed children to die because of his inaction. People can be cruel & I'm sure his family will deal with this stigma a very long time.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Old SF Guy said:


> Wow...A ton of good posts here and I think there are good positions on all the sides.
> 
> So let me add some observations:
> 
> ...


I was not mentally prepared for the first time.
I acted without thinking - I did as I was trained and conditioned. 
After that, my fear was that others would think I was a coward. I could not let others down, either. And yes, I was still scared. I think we all were.

As a student of WWII, I come across interesting factoids. One such was a study after the war that found that often as many as 30% of the riflemen did not engage the enemy, did not fire their rifle, in firefights. That was quite a revelation.

I am not going to judge the cop at this moment.


----------



## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

My anger is not directed at the longtime LEO who on this day found himself hesitant, instead the root cause of the incident is the permissible policies of the progressives that produce fragile individuals who lack direction and self worth.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

It seems now that not 1 but 4 LEO's were on site. More to the story there always is.


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I am not going to judge the cop at this moment.


If you're not willing to lay your life down and do the job, don't commit to it don't get a job in law enforcement.

Edit: I forgot to say I will judge him. He is a coward just like the many soldiers that when we went to war they would back out get pregnant or do whatever they had to do to not go.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

So what's the answer? More training for cops? It would appear so. We have to learn from this and move on, because there will unfortunately be a next time.


----------



## 0rocky (Jan 7, 2018)

Slippy said:


> ... Much of this is media false flag agenda driven shit. They will do anything and blame anyone to further their agenda of gun confiscation. They will not put blame on the person who did this, the murdering mentally ill Nikolas Cruz. They will deflect as much as they can.


Agenda dictates "it's preferred to direct hate towards an inanimate object (in this case an AR15) rather than the shooter". You can't stop all the insane people from exacting violence but it's possible to ban one gun ... then another and so on. The illusion of a solution is necessary.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Annie said:


> So what's the answer? More training for cops? It would appear so. We have to learn from this and move on, because there will unfortunately be a next time.


You may be missing the point Annie.

The Agenda Driven Politicians run the Sheriff's Dept. The Sherriff's Dept most likely had a No Engagement Rule. I predict that more info will come or none will come out and it will be swept under the rug.

If it was all "About The Children" the progressive politicians (both R's, D's and I's) would focus more on eliminating abortions, eliminating Gun Free Zones and not wasting billions of dollars on frivolous shit including Common Core, substandard math and science education, Politically correct crap like global warming and Susie has 2 mommy's as well as outrageous pensions for education workers....

There is more to the story and know this;

This is about gun control plain and simple. Scapegoats, Cowards, Dead Children, Swarmy Politicians simply make better 24 Hour News.

Good has become Evil and Evil has become good...


----------



## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Sherriff Scott Israel is a PUTZ. He has blamed his staff publicly for not responding and investigating previous instances and warning signs. This is his staff and on his watch, he should be in the loop and directing the traffic within his own organization.

Likely, he is also a patsy for the liberals, based on his connections and historical politics.


----------



## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Station one or two retiree's in and around the schools....


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

It's one thing to defend your own life in the heat of a critical moment, quite another to knowingly walk into harms way. I have knowledge of the former and no clue as to the latter so i'll reserve judgement till all the facts are in. It looks like protocols where in place and at this moment, it appears the agenda is alive and well at the expense of 17 innocent lives.


----------



## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Prepared One said:


> It's one thing to defend your own life in the heat of a critical moment, quite another to knowingly walk into harms way.


My point is it depends on the harm. If you are a soldier & told to get up & charge that enemy position, that takes a special courage. If your wife and/or kids were being attacked, I think all would walk into harms way to protect them. IMO, the vast majority of folks would walk into harms way with no second though to protect kids you KNEW were being slaughtered... even if not your own.


----------



## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Talked to a customer of mine yesterday about this. He's an 80 year old....told me a story of when he was a teenager, a kid fell into the ice.

He was a trained lifeguard but said he couldn't move.

The guy next to him (not a trained lifeguard) didn't hesitate and took off after the kid.

The kid lived but he said that instance has bothered him all his life.


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

******* said:


> My point is it depends on the harm. If you are a soldier & told to get up & charge that enemy position, that takes a special courage. If your wife and/or kids were being attacked, I think all would walk into harms way to protect them. IMO, the vast majority of folks would walk into harms way with no second though to protect kids you KNEW were being slaughtered... even if not your own.


I have no doubt most would do what is necessarily to protect themselves and loved ones, including me my friend. I don't have a death wish by any means but I reconciled my death many years ago. That said, I am still reserving judgement on this guy till I have more info. Perhaps he was following protocol, perhaps not. Perhaps he should be labeled a coward, Perhaps not.

Now this Sheriff Scott Israe on the other hand, I can think of a few labels for him.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

******* said:


> IMO, the vast majority of folks would walk into harms way with no second though to protect kids you KNEW were being slaughtered... even if not your own.


You and I have differing opinions about what the general public is willing to do for a stranger when a great risk to their own well-being exists.
Far too many examples on the news and online of people walking past the elderly woman getting robbed, or the woman being abused.
Modern U.S. society has morphed into a "take care of me and my own" population.

I think we both agree that this officer *should* have moved in to at least engage the shooter, even if just to pin him in and slow him down.
We just don't seem to agree on what the average person would do.


----------



## Jackangus (Sep 1, 2016)

Whether or not this man is a coward, he certainly has a lot to answer for. supposedly you have no control over fight or flight, i'm not sure I believe that.
There is no way I could live with myself if I had the means to save innocent lives and didn't.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Would say there is a systemic problem with that agency..starting with the goofy left wing Sheriff.


----------



## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

Mad Trapper said:


> We used to have BB gun wars. No shooting in the head or gonads. If you had a crossman only 3 pumps.
> 
> None of us are blind, even in 1 eye.


Ya been shot a couple times with airguns. Got shot in the ass like forest gump


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

And now we hear that three broward county sheriffs were also there and did not go in.... a smaller police department Coral Springs showed up and went past the County guys (who had there guns drawn but were just standing there)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html

Coral Springs Police Chief Praises First Responders « CBS Miami


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

Slippy said:


> Yes, I will ridicule Donald Trump when he needs ridiculing.
> 
> I'm still waiting for your tactical and strategic plan on what you would have done, tough guy.
> 
> ...


Jeez man, calm down. I'm just trying to discuss what happened here and you're challenging me to a freaking gunfight?! Good grief. Lot of hate in your heart.


----------



## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Maine-Marine said:


> And now we hear that three broward county sheriffs were also there and did not go in.... a smaller police department Coral Springs showed up and went past the County guys (who had there guns drawn but were just standing there)
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html
> 
> Coral Springs Police Chief Praises First Responders « CBS Miami





> Parkland Shooting: Emergency Responders Were Told to Wait Outside as Students Were Dying inside School


Parkland Shooting: Emergency Responders Were Told to Wait Outside as Students Were Dying inside School


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Engagement priorities are tailored to the situation


----------



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

About sums it up.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

mlhouse said:


> Jeez man, calm down. I'm just trying to discuss what happened here and you're challenging me to a freaking gunfight?! Good grief. Lot of hate in your heart.



View attachment 70610


----------



## Randy Lahey (Feb 23, 2018)

Who cares what weapon this guy had. The bottom line is he didn't go in. He should have done what our president would've done: "I really believe I'd run in there even if I didn't have a weapon".
That's the real deal.


----------



## mlhouse (Feb 22, 2018)

Slippy said:


> View attachment 70610


Lol,says the guy who just challenged me to a gun fight. I got you good in this thread, bud.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

mlhouse said:


> Lol,says the guy who just challenged me to a gun fight. I got you good in this thread, bud.


You sure showed me, and you seem to be very smart and so tactical!

View attachment 70626


----------



## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

Slippy said:


> The officer did not "let those kids die". A murdering mentally ill evil person killed them.
> 
> When you have been "the Man in the Arena" you have earned the right to question those who have also been in the arena. The bottom line is, you don't know shit about shit that that man encountered.
> 
> ...


Slippy, the respect I had for you has suddenly increased immensely.


----------

