# Iron sights, Relex sites or tactial sights?



## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

In theory, if a person was to have an assault type rifle, with the intent of short range use (no further than 100 yards, but more likely 25 to 50 yards) also perhaps might be used at night. What would be best to have on it? Also the sites with the quick disconnect, do they stay zeroed when removed then reinstalled? Would love to hear others thoughts on this. thanks -dave-


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## SF340_Driver (Aug 2, 2013)

Largely a matter of personal opinion. 

I like my aimpoint on my AR, but it is electronic which is always a failure risk. I keep a fixed iron front sight on all my ARs and either a quality flip up or co-witnessed fixed rear. I am a big fan of the tritium inserts on the irons for low light.

It takes some practice with the red dot, but being able to look at the threat with both eyes open (instead of the front sight) is a big advantage to me for short range work. 

If you use a quality QD mount the zero will be repeatable. I use American Defense because I like the locking latch, but there are a number of good brands out there.


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## bad (Feb 22, 2014)

It is more reliable to have mechanical sights. If the shitty you may not have access to batteries quite unlike the military.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

My Eotech 512 holds it's zero take the sight off put it back on stays the same. I worry about having a supply of AA batteries. The only problem I've ever had with it was with the batteries. I had them sweat in the housing and had to clean up a bit of mess but other than that it's a great sight, bit expensive though. It is the fastest sight I've used.

I've always been a fan of Iron sights preferring the peep. I see them as more of a back up proposition for a scoped rifles and as a primary sight on rifles such as the M1 carbine that do not have a ready method for mounting optics. 

I think that each type of sight has it's place in the scheme of things and having the right sighting equipment for the rifle and it's intended use can make all the difference in the world..


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

bad said:


> It is more reliable to have mechanical sights. If the shitty you may not have access to batteries quite unlike the military.


True, and I have thought of that, but I would not be removing the iron sights, but assuming I need to defend myself, and still have access to batteries........


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

I went through 4 red dots a=on the AR's,3 different types of flip up sights.

I've settled on the A2 style Forward Sight base, with a Daniel Defense AA1.5 fixed rear sight, a Matech USGI flip up sight,and a Colt carry handle.

I need another Colt carry handle and another Matech or DD rear,or maybe a Troy fixed rear.


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## Infidel (Dec 22, 2012)

Personally I like a low power variable in the 1-4x or 1.75-4.5x range over the red dot type sight. Iron back ups are a must for me since optical sights may fail. A quick detach ring on that scope would be a great addition, I've been thinking about the Warne QD rings for my Mini-14. A quality scope in low light should work well but for total darkness you might want to consider one of the laser designators. I have a friend who bought one for hunting coyotes and he says it works great, your enemy will be able to see you though which would definitely be a draw back.

-Infidel


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## jro1 (Mar 3, 2014)

I have Off set iron sights on my XCR with a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x Fibre optic sight. The sights and scope are mounted on American Defence mounts with throw levers for quick detach or quick mounting. I also prefer the fibre optic scopes because they don't need batteries, And the life of the tritium is around 10-12 years!


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

For TEOTWAWKI get an Trijicon ACOG The US army already did all the testing for you. They think enough of the scope that they pay almost as much for it as the rifles they put it on.


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## Go2ndAmend (Apr 5, 2013)

There are many variations of sights which are far superior to open sights for almost all conditions. That said, for a true short range TSHF rifle, I would take open sights. Open sights are far more durable than any other sight with far less chance of failure do to moisture, failed batteries, bad circuit, being dropped on a rock, fogging up. You can take a rifle with open sights, put it in a secure location for years, pick it up and the sights will still work. I can't say the same about any other sighting system.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

bad said:


> It is more reliable to have mechanical sights. If the shitty you may not have access to batteries quite unlike the military.


Irons are a great backup, and there's no excuse for not practicing with them. That being said, why stop there? Sure some day you may be forced to use them, that's why they're often referred to as "backups". Using them and only them because you'll never have to know the loss of something better seems... well, would you pass up owning an Aston Martin just because some day it may break down and you'll have to drive the Toyota again?

Get a red dot or a holographic. I can shoot my backups with both eyes open, but nowhere near as well as I can with the dot. Standing still it doesn't really matter which one I'm using, but show me one fight where somebody stood still and I'll show you the guy who got shot first. In the middle of the night I know I can turn that dot on and anyone at the end of my hallway is in serious trouble. Try and use most irons in the dark... or against a dark background, if you don't have tritium.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

jro1 said:


> I have Off set iron sights on my XCR with a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x Fibre optic sight. The sights and scope are mounted on American Defence mounts with throw levers for quick detach or quick mounting. I also prefer the fibre optic scopes because they don't need batteries, And the life of the tritium is around 10-12 years!
> 
> View attachment 4602
> View attachment 4603


How'd you get that into Canada? Does Stephen know you have it?! Are you sure the NDP is okay with this??


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## jro1 (Mar 3, 2014)

dannydefense said:


> How'd you get that into Canada? Does Stephen know you have it?! Are you sure the NDP is okay with this??


Also have this......Don't ask!


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

Always with some kind of optic and back up sights.

My personal preference on an AR is an Aimpoint PRO with flip up BUIS. You turn the Aimpoint PRO on, and the battery keeps the dot on for around 3 years. It is rugged and takes abuse well. It comes with a mount that can return to zero every time. And it is affordable. I change my battery every year, just as a makes me feel better precaution, but I have a friend who has had one with the original battery in it for over 3 years. I don't trust batteries that much, myself. 

If you aren't experienced using iron sights, you should definitely do some serious practice. I try to run my course at least 3 or 4 times a year with just the irons to keep in practice.

As for the Bindon Aiming Concept, while I understand it, I also highly recommend shooting all scopes with both eyes open. Except in certain circumstances or conditions, you have a far better picture of what is going on downrange than just the image in the reticle. In most light conditions, you won't have any problem picking up most modern crosshairs. 

Remember, iron sights fail too. They can get mangled or misaligned just like any other sight. It doesn't hurt to practice shooting without sights sometimes. Start at close range targets and progressively to 50 meters or so. You might not be drilling one ragged hole, but you'd be surprised at how combat effective you can be with no sights at all with some practice.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Seneca said:


> My Eotech 512 holds it's zero take the sight off put it back on stays the same. I worry about having a supply of AA batteries. The only problem I've ever had with it was with the batteries. I had them sweat in the housing and had to clean up a bit of mess but other than that it's a great sight, bit expensive though. It is the fastest sight I've used.
> 
> I've always been a fan of Iron sights preferring the peep. I see them as more of a back up proposition for a scoped rifles and as a primary sight on rifles such as the M1 carbine that do not have a ready method for mounting optics.
> 
> I think that each type of sight has it's place in the scheme of things and having the right sighting equipment for the rifle and it's intended use can make all the difference in the world..


I too have the EOTech 512. I chose it because it uses AA batteries. I use lithium batteries in it but if there was a battery shortage I have rechargeable AA's that I can charge up using solar power, Just as a side note, those solar lights that are allot of people put along their sidewalks and in their backyards use AA rechargeable batteries.

The 512 allows me extremely quick target acquisition, holds it's zero, and I have found it very accurate. I works very well for me and fits my needs.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Aim point, Eoctech costly but outstanding.
For fast target acquisition up close nothing beats a good reflex sight on the type weapon you mentioned.
We proved over and over that with a little training every solider hit more targets faster with a reflex sight vs iron.
For short range 50-100 yards even the low cost ones work well. Modern Reflex sights have no issue with water or battery life.
some may have issue with temps below zero.
I was a hard sell. When the Army sent us to train the trainer for the M68 aimpoint I was a no sale. If fact most of the class was that way.
By day two we were sold on them.
I will take my MARS against any iron sight out to 400 meters and more.
Scopes on a AR type weapon are a different madder.


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## Silverback (Jan 20, 2014)

Since we are both at the same effective range this is my getup. I opted for Vortex. Others have mentioned Aim point and Eotech, If the money is there those would be the standard. Vortex is a good solution if not. This is a Red/Green Dot (NV Compatible) 1x Red Dot, behind it is a 3x VMX3 Magnifier that you can see the thumb button to flip it out of the way or back in place. Great for 25-50 Yards and with the 3x I can extend out to 100-300 with fair effectiveness. I keep the irons in place as the weight does not bother me much and just in case the batteries go dry. After all, if you can't fire with Irons alone, you can't fire your rifle.

Vortex is fogless, clear and a resilient optic. It is backed by a lifetime warranty that is no questions asked, just ship it to them and they replace it. I zeroed it once about 3 months back and so far has held true. As far as removing them placing it back on, that would depend on your quick release mount and making sure it is in the same position each time. For the effective range, it's not going to be that far off. However if you want a quick release to put on a 9x or higher scope when needed... that scope is not going to hold zero very well past 150 yards when you put it back on without rezeroing it.

The beauty of a 3x Magnifier is that the red dot holds the zero the mag just magnifies it so it can be removed and remounted as much as you want with no issue.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

Ghost ring, any electronic or telescopic sight is an addition to.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

I really considered the iron sites on my M400 the only way to go but now I wonder. The rear site is constantly getting flipped down or partially flipped. When it bumps against something. So my first issue is that I am not sure flip down sites are always affixed. Second thing. The rifle has a fixed front sight post that is standard height. So if you do mount a scope it puts a halo in the view. No rifle intended to Mount a scope should have a fixed front standard height sight post. The manufacturer should not do this. I see the newer ones have both front and back fold up sights. This seams like a great idea. Now you have two things to fold down unintentionally. The last thing a scope is increadably use full in the field. It increases accuracy and simply seeing things that you normally can not especially in low light. Bottom line. I want both. Very dificult to do both and have it correct.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

If you spend a day learning how to use a Reflex sight. (Many skip this step). Learn to mount it correctly. Then spend a day walking a reflex range you will never go back to iron sights not at 10 feet or 250 meters with an AR type weapon. Your shots will be much faster and on target.
I have seen it proven time and time again. Some take a bit longer to understand how to use them but they do better in the end.


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

Am I the only one who loves his EOTech?


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Coyote hunting with my son made me a red dot fan. When you are sitting in a blind at night in low light....it is nice to see the red dot and much easier then trying to sight in iron sights


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

sparkyprep said:


> Am I the only one who loves his EOTech?


EOTech rates right up at the top with Aimpoint I doubt anyone would argue that. They also are right there with the prices also.
Not everyone can pay almost if not more for a sight than the weapon, not everyone needs the top of the line.
There needs to be limits in all things.

EYE candy MARS this one has IR also and monetary switching. Day light range is to infinity. Once zeroed just put the red dot on the target no need to center it in the sight if you see dot on target then it will hit it.
Indestructible I have tried .


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> EOTech rates right up at the top with Aimpoint I doubt anyone would argue that. They also are right there with the prices also.
> No everyone can pay almost if not more for a sight than the weapon, not everyone needs the top of the line.
> There needs to be limits in all things.
> 
> ...


Where did you get your MARS everywhere I checked they are 2 to 3 times the price of an Eotech. I would love to have one of them, but I bet the Israeli made ones like they use on the Tavor would be illegal to sell in the US because the lasers are probably more than the 5 mw limit allowed for commercial sales.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Smitty

Agree 100% with your comment about the expense and what people can afford. I have an Eotech and spent close to five hundred for it.

On the other end of the expense spectrum this little jewel costs less than a hundred and is a good dot sight for 10/22's.

Amazon.com: Bushnell Trophy Red Dot TRS-25 3 MOA Red Dot Reticle Riflescope, 1x25mm (Matte): Sports & Outdoors


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

rickkyw1720pf said:


> Where did you get your MARS everywhere I checked they are 2 to 3 times the price of an Eotech. I would love to have one of them, but I bet the Israeli made ones like they use on the Tavor would be illegal to sell in the US because the lasers are probably more than the 5 mw limit allowed for commercial sales.


 I saved and suffered for it. They are well worth the price IF and that is a big if you want the IR feature and momentary switch and range of setting.The AIMpoint and EOtech will far exceed the needs of most.There was a time the sale of a MARS was highly restricted.


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## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

on my m400 sig I went eotech. this is my close quarters defensive rifle.



I have the flip up rear sight for co-witness.


with out rear sight:


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Shotlady that will do nicely remind anyone coming over to call ahead advance warning is a good idea


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## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

I have friends that I have had for yrs that don't know where I live. lol only the boys come over and their friends from the base so they can eat.
my friends and I usually meet at the range, the barn or on the trail or at a uppitty supper place for professional networking.


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## Mike45 (Dec 29, 2013)

No more than 100 yards, a good set of iron sites would work just fine. I shot M16/M4s for 22 years out to 300 yards on peep sites and hit what I was aiming at, so 100 yards or less would be a breeze.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Iron sights are great they are just way to slow. That is why they went to a mandatory issue for the M68 and latter reflex sights


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Iron sights are great they are just way to slow. That is why they went to a mandatory issue for the M68 and latter reflex sights


Especially in the heat of battle to stay com enough to line the front and rear sight up against a target. But another advantage when the SHTF you can teach a family member or someone to shoot with minimal training.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

rickkyw1720pf said:


> Especially in the heat of battle to stay com enough to line the front and rear sight up against a target. But another advantage when the SHTF you can teach a family member or someone to shoot with minimal training.


 I remember well. We were told that the M68 would be issued to every rifleman. And it was required to be on the weapon. Range dates set for weapon Qual with the M68. They shipped some of us off to school.
The day we got there one thing was clear most of us were against the the M68. All of the misinformed reasons you have seen posted.
MSG called formation. He ask us to give him a chance. Day one we went to the range a quick zero and the lined up walked the reflex range. We did it all day. They scored each one of us. The next day we went o class on mounting ,zero methods and use of the M68 short day out early .
day 3 range day with M68. We walked the reflex range all day with M68. None of us need to see the scored cars to know we moved faster and made better hits. When all was totaled up 30% better. We spent the next two day clearing builds shoot the heck out of the M68 in all types of conditions.
When we got back we held formation and ask give us a chance.
The only problem with a good reflex sight is getting it in your head how to use it. How to keep both eyes open and down range how to bring the weapon to you on target shoot, scan target shoot.


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