# solar set up is it worth it?



## budgetprepp-n

When I mention I have small solar set up the first thing everyone wants to know is does
it save me money on my electric bill? And am I selling any back to the electric company?
And how much does it cost to build?

OK from a preppers point of view it's not how much did it cost or how much can I save on my bill. 
What I ask myself is "What will be worth when the grid goes down and doesn't come back on?"

When this happens will anyone give a chit what it cost or saves? 
What will it worth then?


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## tinkerhell

I agree. I have a $100 solar panel capable of about a 2A charge. It is enough to recharge the battery pack for my CPAP, as well as a modest assortment of electronics. The convenience and medical application far outweighs the cost.

In fact, 1 is none, 2 is one. I should get myself another.


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## budgetprepp-n

Yes,,,,, Like a 100 watt panel will give what? About 7 or 8 amps? 
With a little sunlight you might be surprised how quick you can charge a battery up.


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## tinkerhell

watt = Voltage x current


eg 12volts at 2amps = 24Watts

120Volts at 15amps is 1800watts?


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## tinkerhell

budgetprepp-n said:


> Yes,,,,, Like a 100 watt panel will give what? About 7 or 8 amps?
> With a little sunlight you might be surprised how quick you can charge a battery up.


depends, on a 12Volt system, that would be 100watts/12volts = 8.33amps. But you also need a charge controller that allows 8.33 amps. but again, that is just a rough calculation because most lead acide batteries don't sit at 12volts, they are charged at 14.40v until the charge current drops to about 100mA.

Also, solar panel specifications are notorious for quoting ideal laboratory conditions. you may not get that type of performance on a cloudy day.

In my case, I have a 25W solar panel (about 2Amps in ideal conditions) but my battery would normally be fully charged in about 8 hrs at 1 Amp, so I don't forsee any problems. Your best bet is test it in real world conditions.


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## Kauboy

Yep, my system is small, and purposefully so.
I have a 70w panel and a 35w panel. With both, I can keep a charge to my small 26AH battery and light up string of LED A19 bulbs through the house(3-6 watts a piece)
It will also charge phones and radios. That's all I plan to keep going. We eat the fridge stuff, then the freezer stuff, then the room temp stuff... Not planning on keeping anything big going at all.


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## tinkerhell

I had a guy bring in an A19 LED bulb so we could be a post mortem on it. The LEDs didn't burn out, but the circuit board had no output. I think that as time goes by, just like the CFLs, we'll see that even LED bulbs are potentially not worth the money.

Makes me want to look for a simpler design, maybe something that is DC instead.


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## Jakthesoldier

Yea, but if the grid never goes down you still save money for more preps or whatever. So it's a prep that gives back.


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## tinkerhell

good point, and worth figuring out.


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## 8301

tinkerhell said:


> I had a guy bring in an A19 LED bulb so we could be a post mortem on it. The LEDs didn't burn out, but the circuit board had no output. I think that as time goes by, just like the CFLs, we'll see that even LED bulbs are potentially not worth the money.
> 
> Makes me want to look for a simpler design, maybe something that is DC instead.


I've read several articles by people who live off grid and who started by using 12v DC only. With the exception of refrigerators in some cases they have all purchased large inverters and run 120v/220v.

For a few emergency lights ect 12v makes some financial sense; anything larger you want to bite the bullet and get a large inverter.


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## Medic33

I guess the better question is--what is it worth to you.
making my own electricity way out in the middle of BFE=priceless to me.


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## 8301

4-5 years ago I built a 490 watt battery based solar system which used to run a small window ac and now runs my freezer and a few other small things; super nice when the power goes out for a day or 2. (about $1300) (about $2.65 a watt with batteries) (about $2 a watt without batteries).

Larger NEC compliant systems capable of tying to the grid with a smaller but decent battery backup run about $4.00/watt (electrician and permits figured into this price) if you do most of the work yourself. You will need a building permit and an electrician to do the final hookup for any grid tie system. Until the end of 2016 the government gives a 30% tax break on grid tied solar systems so some of the cost will be recouped when you pay your taxes.

I'm about to "pull the trigger" on ordering the parts for a roughly 4300 watt ground mount system that I will 90% install myself and I'm currently getting quotes for the materials.

For your 3000w+ system I'd suggest a Magnum 4048 inverter (makes 120v and 220v)with a 80 amp Outback charge controller. You will also want a load center to make wiring everything up much easier to stay NEC compliant. WSS Mini Magnum MS4448 PAE Power Center with option to add Outback Power FM80 or MidNite Solar Classic 150 charge controller

Since I'm looking for a bit more power I'm probably going with the Scheider 6848 inverter Schneider Electric Conext XW+ 6848 Inverter/Charger 
with two 60a charge controllers Conext XW MPPT 60A Solar Charge Controller, XW-MPPT60-150
and a load center Schneider Electric Conext XW+ Power Distribution Panel

Add a ground mount system and a 48v 428amp Rolls battery bank.

Financially a solar system without batteries just barely makes financial sense in my area. The added expense of a battery bank isn't financially a good choice but I'd consider the additional expense as a prep. Of course a strong EMP could fry this expensive system.


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## Stick

Well. For the first six months here I had kerosene lamps, propane lamps, candles, AA headlamps and a AA radio. Then I got a solar panel (100 watt) and an extra marine battery, hooked up a lighter and an old automobile CD/FM radio and 16 foot string of lights and voila! Man, felt like I was in heaven. Charged phone and laptop, too. The next year I got another panel and battery and was more able to last out those dark midwinter days without using the generator. This spring I got two more panels and two more batteries. And a freezer. It runs off 12vdc. Cigarette lighter plug. 2.5 cubic feet it holds plenty for my purposes. This is my fourth summer here and let me tell you it was an absolute treat to have ice and cold water to drink. Three years without refrigeration except temporarily in winter. Past heat waves about all I could do was stay in the shade and pant. I figure I have about maybe $800 total into it (not counting the freezer, just the solar stuff). I used to pay that much for power in a year. Next up is a wind generator to make those dark windy midwinter days bright, two more solar panels and another couple three four batteries. As Medic says, making your own power in the middle of nowhere is priceless. I know it ain't very Christian but sometimes I feel kinda smug about it all.


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## GTGallop

We are in the process of installing a 9.8kw solar system from SunPower. As the marketing material goes, they make the BEST solar panels on the market (monocrystaline) - today. I've looked at the tech, read the data, checked out the competitors, and they all pretty much universally agree SunPower does out perform, but at a cost - $$$

But that makes me wonder. If one single panel can put out 240w. What would you get out of a smaller, more portable set up? I offered to buy just one single panel to play with and they won't sell them that way - plus they cost an outrageous chunk of money. Still think about the stuff that will run! These panels are getting so good today that they are becoming much more practical for smaller roles. In the summer here we get sun (usable sun) from about 5a to 7p - so 14 hours. That 240w panel will give you 3.3kw over the course of the day. For remote and OTG applications storage is starting to become a larger issue. I wouldn't imagine that I'd even have enough demand for 3.3kw and two panels would make 6.6kw - you could be living large off the grid on that. Almost decadent.


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## budgetprepp-n

FoolAmI said:


> I've read several articles by people who live off grid and who started by using 12v DC only. With the exception of refrigerators in some cases they have all purchased large inverters and run 120v/220v.
> 
> For a few emergency lights ect 12v makes some financial sense; anything larger you want to bite the bullet and get a large inverter.


Yes even just one 100 watt panel and a battery would make a huge difference to a prepper
and the cost would be small.


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## PaulS

FoolAmI said:


> 4-5 years ago I built a 490 watt battery based solar system which used to run a small window ac and now runs my freezer and a few other small things; super nice when the power goes out for a day or 2. (about $1300) (about $2.65 a watt with batteries) (about $2 a watt without batteries).
> 
> Larger NEC compliant systems capable of tying to the grid with a smaller but decent battery backup run about $5/watt (electrician and permits figured into this price) if you do most of the work yourself. You will need a building permit and an electrician to do the final hookup for any grid tie system. Until the end of 2016 the government gives a 30% tax break on grid tied solar systems so some of the cost will be recouped when you pay your taxes.
> 
> I'm about to "pull the trigger" on ordering the parts for a roughly 3600 watt ground mount system that I will 90% install myself and I'm currently getting quotes for the materials.
> 
> For your 3000w+ system I'd suggest a Magnum 4048 inverter (makes 120v and 220v)with a 80 amp Outback charge controller. You will also want a load center to make wiring everything up much easier to stay NEC compliant. WSS Mini Magnum MS4448 PAE Power Center with option to add Outback Power FM80 or MidNite Solar Classic 150 charge controller
> 
> Since I'm looking for a bit more power I'm probably going with the Scheider 6848 inverter Schneider Electric Conext XW+ 6848 Inverter/Charger
> with two 60a charge controllers Conext XW MPPT 60A Solar Charge Controller, XW-MPPT60-150
> and a load center Schneider Electric Conext XW+ Power Distribution Panel
> 
> Financially a solar system without batteries just barely makes financial sense in my area. The added expense of a battery bank isn't financially a good choice but I'd consider the additional expense as a prep. Of course a strong EMP could fry this expensive system.


Only a nuclear EMP would damage your system. A solar event - no matter how strong - would not affect it in the least.


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## 8301

PaulS said:


> Only a nuclear EMP would damage your system. A solar event - no matter how strong - would not affect it in the least.


Which is good since it's going to cost a lot, close to $17,000 (before federal tax rebates) by the time it's finished and the batteries will need to be replaced every 8-10 years.


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## PaulS

Size your panels at 80% of their actual output and they will last 50 years. If you need 1000 watts buy panels to make 1200 watts. They lose 10% the first year and another 5% in the next 4 years and by the time they are 10 years old they have lost about 20% overall. We bought ten year old (surplus) panels for the cabin at our BOL and they have not lost any power output since we installed them. They flatten out at 80% of new and remain there for a long time. That is what the life expectancy is rated on - when they lose 20% of their rated power output their life is over... so you buy new panels. If you buy the extra 20% new then you will slowly get to your desired specs. As long as they are not physically damaged they will produce at the 80% level forever!. Keeping them cool is absolutely necessary.


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## Medic33

Stick said:


> Well. For the first six months here I had kerosene lamps, propane lamps, candles, AA headlamps and a AA radio. Then I got a solar panel (100 watt) and an extra marine battery, hooked up a lighter and an old automobile CD/FM radio and 16 foot string of lights and voila! Man, felt like I was in heaven. Charged phone and laptop, too. The next year I got another panel and battery and was more able to last out those dark midwinter days without using the generator. This spring I got two more panels and two more batteries. And a freezer. It runs off 12vdc. Cigarette lighter plug. 2.5 cubic feet it holds plenty for my purposes. This is my fourth summer here and let me tell you it was an absolute treat to have ice and cold water to drink. Three years without refrigeration except temporarily in winter. Past heat waves about all I could do was stay in the shade and pant. I figure I have about maybe $800 total into it (not counting the freezer, just the solar stuff). I used to pay that much for power in a year. Next up is a wind generator to make those dark windy midwinter days bright, two more solar panels and another couple three four batteries. As Medic says, making your own power in the middle of nowhere is priceless. I know it ain't very Christian but sometimes I feel kinda smug about it all.


that rocks dude.


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## GTGallop

PaulS said:


> Only a nuclear EMP would damage your system. A solar event - no matter how strong - would not affect it in the least.


Or a tornado or hail...
Just sayin.


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## Ralph Rotten

I have an on-grid system with almost 40 panels. 9 months of the year I pay $140 for the panels and $7 to the electric company. All excess power that I do not use goes into the grid. I can sell it to them or bank it (I bank mine because they buy it at a paltry rate, but when I cash in my units it is in the summer when electric prices soar--so I am actually trading up in the process.) 

It is not terribly difficult to switch an on-grid system over to feed only your house. Where I am short is in llocal battery storage. But truthfully I am holding off on that component until I see what Elan Musk comes up with in the next 2 years (that guy is a friggin genius!) Last I heard the technology is shifting from batteries to capacitors. They charge faster, discharge faster, and are more environmentally friendly when it comes time to replace them. They will also be cheaper (so they say...)


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## alterego

Oh man you guys are killing me with the solar talk. I had my self all lathered up and then spent my cash on a new pickup. I kept doing the math on the time for payback. My current electric bills after all the efficiency changes we made are 52 dollars and less. 52 dollars was the highest after running the air conditioning through July 

A complete off grid with batteries and everything to make it possible for me to disconnect from consumers would be 21 thousand with me doing all the work. So this works out to 35 year payback. But none of the equipment will last that long. The battery alone would be 5200 to 8700 replacement at 5 or ten years respective makes it financial calculus to 100 years payback.

However I still have an emotional wanton need to put one in.


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## Notsoyoung

IMO, for what it's worth, I am more concerned about having an independent power source then I am in saving money.


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## 8301

alterego said:


> Oh man you guys are killing me with the solar talk. I had my self all lathered up and then spent my cash on a new pickup. I kept doing the math on the time for payback. My current electric bills after all the efficiency changes we made are 52 dollars and less. 52 dollars was the highest after running the air conditioning through July
> 
> A complete off grid with batteries and everything to make it possible for me to disconnect from consumers would be 21 thousand with me doing all the work. So this works out to 35 year payback. But none of the equipment will last that long. The battery alone would be 5200 to 8700 replacement at 5 or ten years respective makes it financial calculus to 100 years payback.
> 
> However I still have an emotional wanton need to put one in.


So if I've got this right you need roughly 600 kwh per month. The system I'm designing will average that much even allowing for a 15% total power loss from batteries, inverters, ect. with my 5.4 hr/day average solar in this area. The total system cost including permits and paying the electrician but without batteries and charge controllers will cost me $13,000 with an additional $4000 for the charge controllers and batteries before federal tax breaks.

I understand that if you want to be truly off grid you need enough panels for winter use and batteries to get by for 3-4 days of snow. I consider the battery backup ($4000 of the cost) to be a security thing and sized my battery bank a lot smaller. So the $13,000 (plus my labor) to build the 4300 watt system and grid tie it will then receive a 30% federal tax break and end up costing $9,100. If I average making $64 in electricity per month (projections show $64/month average at 85% system efficiency)(system will probably run about 92% efficient but extra safety in these numbers) so a solid $768 in electricity a year.
$9,100 / $768 = a 11.84 year ROI (return on investment) for the power producing part of my system.

Not great but it still beats many investments such as bonds and CDs and the cost of power is only going to go up shortening the ROI. I consider the cost of the battery bank and charge controllers to be an investment in security like that spare water filter and gas cans many of us keep around.

True, the $3090 inverter is only warrantied for 5 years and will probably last 12-15 years. The panels and mounts are warrantied for 25 years. At this time after the federal tax break grid tie solar is a little more than a break even proposition but it is also a prep that basically costs you nothing since it does break even or maybe even makes you a bit of cash in the long run. Adding batteries and charge controller is the only real cost to your prepping budget.

The good batteries are warrantied for 7-10 years (depending on the model) and while I really hope they last much longer I consider their expense a little extra security when the power goes out. And the federal tax break will also apply to my battery bank saving me an additional $1200 on the "security" part of my solar system.

What size system are you planning to install and why do you have to have enough batteries to last 3-4 days in the snow? Get the $2980 Surrette (Wholesale Solar) 48v 428 ah battery bank for emergencies and just stay tied to the grid. Not trying to tell you what to do but if you're staying at the same house the next 10 years financially a solar system can be a good deal.

After federal tax breaks my entire system with battery backup will cost $11,900 plus a week of my work.


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## 8301

One major downside to a solar system. If it can be seen easily from the road during a SHTF situation you may attract unwanted guests looking for panels.


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## PaulS

It can only be seen if your roof is visible, and if the panels are on the ground on trackers they are much better hidden and much more productive.
I would never recommend installing a system to save money - that's like buying gold to make money. The gold holds its value but it doesn't generate interest. The only reason for having solar is to be energy independent. That will be expensive!

After the power goes out across the norther hemisphere because of a class 9 solar mass ejection then you will still have power.


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## LunaticFringeInc

I agree with the OP.

I have a 120 dollar 3amp panel hooked up to a car battery from a car I junked with about 15 bucks of accessories wired into it. It wont run the AC and it wont run the furnace but it will run my lights, recharge my phone, computer and cordless power tools and that to me is golden in itself.


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## Prepadoodle

You really should look at the energy costs over time. Your panels will last 25 years, what will electricity cost in 10 years? How about 20 years? Energy prices might double or triple over the life of the system, dramatically changing the cost calculations.

Also, if you finance the system, factor in the decreasing value of your payment. If you have a fixed loan, you will pay the same payment no matter how much the dollar is devalued by inflation. $150 a month today might seem like a lot, but in 20 years, won't be nearly as big a percentage of your pay check.

These 2 factors are often overlooked, but can combine to make a huge difference in the actual system costs.


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## paraquack

I agree with Prepadoodle. With the EPA's new shit they want, they're talking 30% to 70% increase in cost of power off the grid.


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## graynomad

PaulS said:


> It can only be seen if your roof is visible, and if the panels are on the ground on trackers they are much better hidden and much more productive.
> I would never recommend installing a system to save money - that's like buying gold to make money. The gold holds its value but it doesn't generate interest. The only reason for having solar is to be energy independent. That will be expensive!
> 
> After the power goes out across the norther hemisphere because of a class 9 solar mass ejection then you will still have power.


Yep, it ain't about the money, it's about independence.


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## Ralph Rotten

There was a recent break thru in solar that takes panel efficiency from the current 19% to 40% efficiency. However, I do not believe they are widely available yet. These new solar cells (which allegedly work better on overcast days as well) will change the game substantially.

However, the batteries are still the albatross in the system. Until Elan Musk's new capacitors are available , batteries kill any hope of saving money by switching to solar (except maybe with an on-grid system).


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## 8301

Ralph Rotten said:


> There was a recent break thru in solar that takes panel efficiency from the current 19% to 40% efficiency. However, I do not believe they are widely available yet. These new solar cells (which allegedly work better on overcast days as well) will change the game substantially.
> 
> However, the batteries are still the albatross in the system. Until Elan Musk's new capacitors are available , batteries kill any hope of saving money by switching to solar (except maybe with an on-grid system).


here are you getting this information? No offence but that kind of gain in efficiency sounds almost too good to be true. Yes, batteries are very expensive but the large pure sine wave inverters are really expensive too. No matter how many batteries you have or how efficient your panels are the inverter can choke the whole system down if it isn't large enough.


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