# rebuilding America



## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Ok, here is just a few measly ideas.
Three months, for every citizen, soldier, diplomat, whatever to come home. No consulats, no nothing. 
Zero help to any other country for one year. None. Take care of americans.
All returned military are at schools or border, respect the veterans.
Closed borders. No one gets in. Sorry. 
Reevaluate govt. 
Smaller. Not bigger. 
Welfare is temporay. 
Just a start. Tired of typing on phone.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

Government needs a good douching. Welfare need to be redone as well. No more steak and shrimp for food stamps. I just love how they can go in and buy about whatever they want with food stamps. Our justice system needs to be redone as well. Anyone that likes Sean Penn and the rest of the liberal celebrities needs to be executed! Well, most of em anyway..lol


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Deebo said:


> Ok, here is just a few measly ideas.
> Three months, for every citizen, soldier, diplomat, whatever to come home. No consulats, no nothing.
> Zero help to any other country for one year. None. Take care of americans.
> All returned military are at schools or border, respect the veterans.
> ...


Deebo,

I can empathize with your feelings toward foreigners; however, America was not founded on keeping the foreigners out. To the contrary, we allowed every race, color, creed and political persuasion into the U.S. from the very beginning. What we did not do is to allow others to become citizens. Citizenship was a privilege. There is something I want you to take into consideration. Frederick Bastiat, who wrote the book The Law (and is very popular in Libertarian circles) wrote something that I'd like to quote a part of from another article:

"_Bastiat praised the merchants for their position on agricultural products, but excoriated them for their hypocrisy in wanting protectionism for themselves. "You demand privilege for a few," he wrote, whereas "I demand liberty for all_."

Biography of Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850)

America was founded on the foundational beliefs that America is the promised land, the biblical Israel. Additionally, the notion of Liberty is a Christian concept as well.

"_Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty._" II Corinthians 3 : 17

If you want to rebuild America, you have to renounce the modern day money changers. Offer incentives for employers to hire Americans. Tax those countries that send in goods made in slave states. We cannot compete with slave labor without either taxing the foreign profiteers and / or becoming a slave state ourselves. Get the government out of welfare.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

The Resister said:


> Resister wrote a bunch of other stuff, then he wrote this...
> 
> If you want to rebuild America, you have to renounce the modern day money changers. Offer incentives for employers to hire Americans. Tax those countries that send in goods made in slave states. We cannot compete with slave labor without either taxing the foreign profiteers and / or becoming a slave state ourselves. Get the government out of welfare.


I actually agree completely.

EDIT: Holy Shit! Deebo is ALIVE!


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

The Resister said:


> Deebo,
> 
> I can empathize with your feelings toward foreigners; however, America was not founded on keeping the foreigners out. To the contrary, we allowed every race, color, creed and political persuasion into the U.S. from the very beginning. What we did not do is to allow others to become citizens. Citizenship was a privilege. There is something I want you to take into consideration. Frederick Bastiat, who wrote the book The Law (and is very popular in Libertarian circles) wrote something that I'd like to quote a part of from another article:
> 
> ...


And we should care what a French Politician said because?


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## Scotty12 (Jan 5, 2013)

I think that perhaps we have lost sight of what we are supposed to be and it is our own fault as a country. Franklin Roosevelt was an advocate of the Monroe Doctrine although we winded up in WW II over a heinous attack by the Japanese. Maybe the issues of isolationism and immigration (legal) are two separate ideas. We should be isolationists in that we take care of our country and let the world kill each other if they want. However the Resister does make a valid point in that we are all a bunch of mutts. We just have to make sure there are rules that are followed in it. We are not living in the same times as our founding fathers were. Things change.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Offer incentives for employers to hire Americans?
How about this - any employer caught hiring an illegal goes to jail. The 2nd one caught hiring an illegal goes to jail for twice as long as the first.
E-Verify. The program is in place. Whatever federal bureaucrat is in charge of this program, which doesn't even work, needs to go to jail as well.

There is your employer "incentive" Mr Resiter - follow the stinkin' law or go to jail. 
When is this country going to quit paying lip service to the laws on the book? There is another thread here about is this still a country of laws. The only laws that seem to be enforced are those who keep working, heterosexual, Christian, American CITIZENS down.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

First we have to close the borders and get the illegals out. Then we can admit people based on it's good for the country not they want to collect welfare on one or more identities and work under the table under another. Not to mention selling drugs and gang banging.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

We have a functional immigration system if we use it. The problem is it is not used and it is even circumvented by the feds to gain an advantage at the polls at the cost of our financial future.


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

PrepConsultant said:


> Government needs a good douching. Welfare need to be redone as well. No more steak and shrimp for food stamps. I just love how they can go in and buy about whatever they want with food stamps. Our justice system needs to be redone as well. Anyone that likes Sean Penn and the rest of the liberal celebrities needs to be executed! Well, most of em anyway..lol


Man where can I get shrimp and steak on about 4.43 per day? Average amount of food stamps is $133 per month.

Now you want to stop illegal immigration that is easy. Re-issue social security cards with a card that can't be duplicated to all citizens and those that are here on a work visa. Any person caught working without the proper card arrest the person that hired them and give them some jail time and a strong fine the first time. A second time they lose their business the same as a mobster would lose all of his property if caught and convicted.

I agree that our justice system needs to be redone though take the business out of it of running prisons as now one in the system you will never get out of it.

As for the liberals I guess the same could be said about conservatives however people have a right to say what they believe even if you don't like it. That is unless you want a totalitarian government.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Deebo said:


> Ok, here is just a few measly ideas.
> Three months, for every citizen, soldier, diplomat, whatever to come home. No consulats, no nothing.
> Zero help to any other country for one year. None. Take care of americans.
> All returned military are at schools or border, respect the veterans.
> ...


Not a bad set of priorities, but I would add one more..."Speak softly and carry a Big Stick". I would create a some what smaller but more elite and effective military and more importantly I wouldn't be afraid to use it. I would inform a country that posed a threat or crossed America one time and one time only very politely "not a good idea", if they insisted despite, I would make them pay a very dear price for doing so. If I conquered it...I wouldn't be giving it back either!!!

For example...lets take the muslim middle east extremist. They can hate America, I don't care. They can live under what ever form of government or laws they want. They can kill who ever they want. But I would also tell them from day one, the first time they fly a plane into a building on our shores or territory, the first time they high jack a plane, I would take Mecca off the world map in no uncertain terms! Im not into world domination, but Im not a door mat either and nor will my country be one.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

joec said:


> Man where can I get shrimp and steak about 4.43 per day? Average amount of food stamps is $133 per month.
> 
> Now you want to stop illegal immigration that is easy. Re-issue social security cards with a card that can't be duplicated to all citizens and those that are here on a work visa. Any person caught working without the proper card arrest the person that hired them and give them some jail time and a strong fine the first time. A second time they lose their business the same as a mobster would lose all of his property if caught and convicted.
> 
> ...


I have seen them buy steak and stuff with food stamps MANY times. My stepdaughter used to work as Publix when she was in school and said that almost every day someone would come in and get seafood and steak with food stamps. I have been in line before and have had them buying steak,chops and a buggy full of junk food and then pull out their ebt card. All while wearing $200 shoes,gold all over and then go out and get in their Escalade with 22in spinners!!

I agree that prisons are being run as businesses instead of what they are meant for..

As for liberals and conservatives having the right to say what they want. There is freedom of speech even though the liberal side has ruined this country..


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Right, confiscate the business and remove all the jobs because of an undocumented worker. How about we fine the business for the misdemeanor on a progressive fine system and remove the undocumented worker. That will keep the company in business and people working.


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

PrepConsultant said:


> I have seen them buy steak and stuff with food stamps MANY times. My stepdaughter used to work as Publix when she was in school and said that almost every day someone would come in and get seafood and steak with food stamps. I have been in line before and have had them buying steak,chops and a buggy full of junk food and then pull out their ebt card. All while wearing $200 shoes,gold all over and then go out and get in their Escalade with 22in spinners!!
> 
> I agree that prisons are being run as businesses instead of what they are meant for..
> 
> As for liberals and conservatives having the right to say what they want. There is freedom of speech even though the liberal side has ruined this country..


Liberals have ruined this country but we have had more conservative congresses and presidents since WWII than liberals. Fact is both parties have brought us here.

As for the food stamps perhaps I'm shopping in the wrong stores though I've not seen a Publix since I left Florida but we do have Kroger's which I think is similar.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

We need to stop giving BILLION in aid to foreign countries where most of the population would just assume see us dead!! Spend the money here in our own country! Hell, we just gave like $1.3 billion to Egypt alone this year! But cut MANY American jobs due to budget cuts!! You would think those jobs would help with the economy..


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Have you noticed these big-government types always want to confiscate other peoples' stuff? First they tried it with gold, then they wanted to confiscate guns, now they want to confiscate your business. I guess I would agree to letting them confiscate my bullets if they agreed to take the pointy end first.


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## Scotty12 (Jan 5, 2013)

One problem is that what was once a liberal is now a socialist or full blown communist.


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

Scotty12 said:


> One problem is that what was once a liberal is now a socialist or full blown communist.


Here you should find this helpful in what socialism and communism is.


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

Do not fine a business for hiring illegal immigrants. Put them in JAIL. A fine is just another cost of doing business. Jail time actually means something to the white collars. Can't blaming an illegal immigrant for wanting to earn a living, but I can blame someone who is breaking the Law to profit from them. If no one will hire illegals, then they stop comming. Simple as that.

Import tariffs on all imported goods. That's what they do to us. Fords are extremely expensive in Japan due to high tariffs, but Toyotas are cheap. Works for them, works for us. This will cause a ramp up of our own manufacturing, which has historically shown to be the backbone of our economy. It pulled us through WW2, and the Great Deppression.

Term limits for all politicians. No more 30 year Congressmen.

Get rid of the two party system. No more political parties.

Overhaul the welfare system. Yes, we need a welfare system for people who can not work, but not for people who don't want to work. The TVA is an excellent model. Give the people the skills they need to be productive, not just throw free money at them. As a bonus, our national infrastructure gets a much needed boost.

Scale back the Dept. Of Homeland Security. There is very little need for a domestic military force designed to be used against US citizens.

Scale back foreign aid until we can afford it. International relations are very important, but not at the expense of Americans.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

No more N A F T A!!


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

PrepConsultant said:


> No more N A F T A!!


Now that we can agree on for sure.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Scotty12 said:


> I think that perhaps we have lost sight of what we are supposed to be and it is our own fault as a country. Franklin Roosevelt was an advocate of the Monroe Doctrine although we winded up in WW II over a heinous attack by the Japanese. Maybe the issues of isolationism and immigration (legal) are two separate ideas. We should be isolationists in that we take care of our country and let the world kill each other if they want. However the Resister does make a valid point in that we are all a bunch of mutts. We just have to make sure there are rules that are followed in it. We are not living in the same times as our founding fathers were. Things change.


Scotty12,

I don't know if it is an issue any longer regarding isolationism or immigration. Immigration presumes that every foreigner comes here to be a citizen. The definition of immigration is the action of coming to live permanently in a foreign country. What we have today are people that come to the United States as guest workers to work at jobs willingly offered and later return to their native land. In a free society, we have the Right of ownership. If someone creates a job, the job is theirs to give to whomever they want. Many Social Conservatives don't see it that way.

As you can see from some of the responses directed toward me, some think that jobs belong to the people as opposed to the employer that created them. Such a proposition is pure socialism and not consistent with the constitutional Republic envisioned by the founding fathers. Wholesale immigration was never anticipated in the Constitution either. So, what is the answer? Honestly, most would not want the truth.

On this board you have misguided people that think immigration is "_illegal_." It isn't. It's purely civil. As a matter of fact, the same people wailing about "illegal" immigration are the same ones claiming we ought to enforce (sic) "our" immigration laws. Whoa, now. In previous posts I showed that there was no such thing as "_illegal immigration_." I even cited the correct federal laws on IMPROPER ENTRY, showing that we were dealing with a civil issue, not a criminal one; therefore, civil law has no illegal connotations. Let's go a step further here. The Social Conservatives want the immigration laws enforced. Let me try one of them for you just for fun:

"_The *right* of a person to become a naturalized citizen shall not be denied or abridged because of race_." Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (aka the McCarran - WalterAct)

Okay, so the foreigner has a RIGHT to become a citizen. I don't understand all the idiotic "_illegal alien_" language of the Social Conservatives. Not only is coming into the U.S. without papers NOT a crime, but the foreigner has a "RIGHT" to become a citizen IF you support the notion that the current immigration laws are consistent with the Constitution. If we treated the Second Amendment the same way we treat the immigration issue, *nobody* in America would have a gun. Due to the parameters of stare decisis (or precedent law) I do not support the Social Conservative interpretation of the immigration laws because if / when the precedents were applied to gun control, we'd all be out of firearms "_legally_" ... if you buy into anti - immigrant hysteria.

The "_solutions_" to fix America's problems is to recreate a communist idea from Berlin and build a fence around the southern border of the U.S., close the border and make the United States a complete POLICE STATE with National ID, Constitution Free Zones, and government control of the labor market. ALL of those so - called "_solutions_" have been promoted on this board. Some of the misguided reasoning can be found in this very thread!!! The irony of it all is that those same people want the immigration laws enforced and those laws make this assertion that people have a RIGHT to become a naturalized citizen. Of course, I seem to be the only one opposed to enforcing unconstitutional laws that presume to create Rights that simply do not exist. While I think that in a free market society every person has a Right to come here, work and do business, I DO NOT believe that citizenship is a Right. Neither should anyone be forced to become a citizen in order to participate in a free market. Come to the U.S., work, make money, but don't presume that you can automatically become a part of the body politic.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

how to fix America, zombie apocalypse
how to fix the world, ice age. with a zombie apocalypse


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

sparkyprep said:


> Do not fine a business for hiring illegal immigrants. Put them in JAIL. A fine is just another cost of doing business. Jail time actually means something to the white collars. Can't blaming an illegal immigrant for wanting to earn a living, but I can blame someone who is breaking the Law to profit from them. If no one will hire illegals, then they stop comming. Simple as that.
> 
> Import tariffs on all imported goods. That's what they do to us. Fords are extremely expensive in Japan due to high tariffs, but Toyotas are cheap. Works for them, works for us. This will cause a ramp up of our own manufacturing, which has historically shown to be the backbone of our economy. It pulled us through WW2, and the Great Deppression.
> 
> ...


Is that you, Raul?

Cuba: Communist Party Discusses Introduction Of Term Limits


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

Um... I'm assuming from your usual combative, and immature posts, that this was somehow an attempt at making a connection between my post and Communism. However, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Two political entities can share a single policy idea, and still not be one in the same entity.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

sparkyprep said:


> Um... I'm assuming from your usual combative, and immature posts, that this was somehow an attempt at making a connection between my post and Communism. However, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Two political entities can share a single policy idea, and still not be one in the same entity.


Could be, but how many times has the same, identical accusation been leveled at me AND when the leftists have never, ever suggested employing any suggestion I've posted???? You have something in common with the left. I don't. Big difference. Not trying to be immature, but if it came across that way, imagine all those detractors that I've had on this board. Just saying.

Maybe it's time to stop slinging skeet at one another and ask questions instead of making accusations. And sparkyrep I did ask a question, not make some ridiculous allegation.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

The Resister said:


> Could be, but how many times has the same, identical accusation been leveled at me AND when the leftists have never, ever suggested employing any suggestion I've posted???? You have something in common with the left. I don't. Big difference. Not trying to be immature, but if it came across that way, imagine all those detractors that I've had on this board. Just saying.
> 
> Maybe it's time to stop slinging skeet at one another and ask questions instead of making accusations. And sparkyrep I did ask a question, not make some ridiculous allegation.


OI EASE UP TURBO

you seem to just ad fuel to your arguments that cause more issues for yourself, this is getting a lot of people on the defense, including you...

you have made a lot of disagreeable posts over the past few days (GRATE!! means you no sheep and think for yourself) but you follow it through with childish antics, and get hammered for it, linking a view to a communist party is something out of the cold war... it didn't work well then, it won't work now...

if you want to hold your own agsinst some of these arguments, grate (and all for it) just try not to be as much of a arsehole about it, or your message/point will be lost.....

ps CHILL its only the internet


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

The Resister said:


> Maybe it's time to stop slinging skeet at one another and ask questions instead of making accusations.


You are absolutely correct sir. What can we agree on and what can we fight together for?


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

The Resister said:


> Could be, but how many times has the same, identical accusation been leveled at me AND when the leftists have never, ever suggested employing any suggestion I've posted???? You have something in common with the left. I don't. Big difference. Not trying to be immature, but if it came across that way, imagine all those detractors that I've had on this board. Just saying.
> 
> Maybe it's time to stop slinging skeet at one another and ask questions instead of making accusations. And sparkyrep I did ask a question, not make some ridiculous allegation.


Resistor, when have I ever made a comment about you? I have never engaged in political banter with you. I try to stay out of political banter with anyone. How do you know I have something in common with the left? You don't have any idea of what my politics are. I will continue to try to stay out of political arguments, but if you, or anyone else calls me out, I will respond in kind. I have never accused you of anything, and I won't start now. Good luck in all your endeavors.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Inor said:


> You are absolutely correct sir. What can we agree on and what can we fight together for?


The point that is lost on all those trying to score brownie points against me (and I agree they are winning in a *democratic* race), but if America were to be defined into one word, it would be Liberty. It is the foundational principle upon which this nation was founded; it is the cement that holds a free country together. In my opinion, in order to rebuild America, you have to figure out what made us great in the first place. Patrick Henry did not mince any words on his view:

"_Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined_."

Regardless of what negative commentary is aimed at me, at the end of the day, I fight for Liberty. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans; conservatives nor liberals; right or left have addressed the issue of Liberty with respect to the pet agendas. If I were debating on a liberal site, I would remind them that America was founded upon the concept that individuals were presumed to have been born with God given *unalienable* Rights. As such, no majority can tell me I cannot own a firearm or practice a religion they may not like. With the conservatives, they must be addressed in light of the fact that a POLICE STATE is as tyrannical as the Nanny State / Socialist utopia dreamed of by the liberal left.

Liberty is not a condition of citizenship. It is a Right that the individual is born with. Most people have lost sight of that fact. Living off the public dole and / or having a say as to whether we remain a Republic or a POLICE STATE... or Nanny State is not a Right. Those are privileges of citizenship. Much to the chagrin of many, America was founded on the idea that we are the biblical Israel mentioned in the Bible. As such, that nation does not have walls, bars or gates (see Ezekiel 38 : 11 as an example.) It does not matter whether or not you believe in the Bible. The founding fathers did and their system of jurisprudence is predicated upon biblical precepts. Our heritage is a collection of things we deem to be right and wrong with the Bible as a guide.

If the formula works - and we did become the greatest nation in the annals of history, I see no reason not to commit to rebuilding America the same way it was created. Liberty cannot be marginalized. That is where I draw the ire of many. But, let me say this to all of you. Bruce Cofield (author of things like Mary Poppins, Nancy Drew Dres, the Hardy Boys, etc.) summed it up best:

_"Withholding information is the essence of tyranny. Control of the flow of information is the tool of the dictatorship._"

If we could agree on that point and commit to the study of Liberty, we might be able to begin the rebuilding process. The POLICE STATE with its graduated income tax, so - called _"Patriot Act,_" Constitution Free Zones, National ID / REAL ID Act, Homeland (IN) Security, and the endless tyrannical laws that the left and right demand we slavishly follow are the real problem. Each of them are an attack on Liberty. On that I make my stand and ask everyone to rally around the concept of Liberty. It is the foundational principle of a free nation.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

sparkyprep said:


> Resistor, when have I ever made a comment about you? I have never engaged in political banter with you. I try to stay out of political banter with anyone. How do you know I have something in common with the left? You don't have any idea of what my politics are. I will continue to try to stay out of political arguments, but if you, or anyone else calls me out, I will respond in kind. I have never accused you of anything, and I won't start now. Good luck in all your endeavors.


I have apologized to you once. I don't exactly keep score of who said what... with only a couple of major exceptions for poseurs. I did not mean to accuse you, but to start a discussion based upon the idea that we don't have a Right to vote for whomever we want. Term limits have a downside. It may promise to keep bad people from continuing on, but it also puts a time limit on effective and good leaders.

Quite frankly, I'd like to avoid the political banter, but if you followed all my postings on this board, I get attacked on a regular basis by people hoping to score popularity points against me rather than to discuss substantive issues. So, I sometimes come off as being aggressive. In this case, my bad. As for me, I'm a strict constructionist and would rather rebuild America on the same principles our founding fathers did. That America worked. The one we have does not.


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

The Resister said:


> If you want to rebuild America, you have to renounce the modern day money changers. Offer incentives for employers to hire Americans. Tax those countries that send in goods made in slave states. We cannot compete with slave labor without either taxing the foreign profiteers and / or becoming a slave state ourselves. Get the government out of welfare.


Its a damn shame when I find myself agreeing with you....


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

IMHO it is not the illegal aliens that are the problem. They come to the US looking for a better life for them and their children. The real problem seems to be that when they get here they find the US to be paradise on earth. The liberals bend over backwards to give them so much, they quickly learn what the all the other people with their hands out learned long ago. Grab anything and everything from the government. It is the golden goose. Unfortunately the golden goose will soon die. I fer then that all the people with their hands out will suddenly turn on the government and everyone else who has worked their a$$ for a living and try to take what the aren't getting from the government. Our children and our grand children and the next 10 generations will be paying off the debt incurred through the efforts of the government. If you do the math, each person in the US would have to cough up about $55,000.00 to pay off that debt. But since nearly 50% of the people have full time jobs of standing around with their hands out, I figure we should say that each hard working person in the US would have to cough up $110,000.00 to pay off the debt. While I know that there are plenty of hard working illegals out there, I knew too many who scammed their way into the handout line. The scary part is it now seems the young adult children of the hard working generations have figured out that they too can scam the government and get hand outs. One young guy, age 28, has a girl friend and has 3 kids with her. They are not married. She gets a very large assistance check from the state of ILLINOIS for housing, gets medical care for the kids, a snap card, and help paying for the day care for the kids so she can work. This guy makes a real good dollar where I worked, but by living with her, they have have tons of money to afford the finer and more fun things in life. When I was that age, I had 2 jobs to make ends meet. The thought of taking hand outs was repulsive, too much pride I guess. But that era is over, I'm afraid. I cry for myself, my grandchildren and the country in general. I can't help but feel that the US is plunging into an abyss create by "do gooders" who only want to get re-elected, damn the expense and damage to the country. I will never vote for an incumbent again. Rebuild America by getting rid of all incumbents!!!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

This is akin to the chicken clucking about how to rebuild the farm. We have no more capability of rebuilding America.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Holy shit. DEEBO is certainly alive and kicking. And very surprised that he and resister have agreed on something.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Deebo said:


> Holy shit. DEEBO is certainly alive and kicking. And very surprised that he and resister have agreed on something.


THAT'S SCARY. :shock:

Like Resister said, most of us are here only to attack him and score points. I'm not sure what we are scoring points for but I'm not a lawyer either so.... Most of his posts do read like a law brief though.

BTW, who has scored the most points so far?


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## Scotty12 (Jan 5, 2013)

So the correct general consensus seems to be legal immigration is ok as long as it is legal and we have limits on who we let in. Having said that the only real way to ensure that is to close our borders. Makes sense to me.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

The Resister said:


> The point that is lost on all those trying to score brownie points against me (and I agree they are winning in a *democratic* race), but if America were to be defined into one word, it would be Liberty. It is the foundational principle upon which this nation was founded; it is the cement that holds a free country together. In my opinion, in order to rebuild America, you have to figure out what made us great in the first place. Patrick Henry did not mince any words on his view:
> 
> "_Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined_."
> 
> ...


You and I may never agree on immigration. But frankly, if we do not get the rest of this mess sorted out, immigration will not matter anyway because soon nobody is going to _WANT_ to immigrate here, legally or illegally. The rest of this post (as well as several of your other recent posts) I agree with. Let us set aside the immigration issue for the time being and work together to restore liberty on the 98% of the issues we do agree on.


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

We are a Nation built on the principal of open boarders. We are a Nation of mutts, and that is what makes us great. It is the mixing of cultures and ideas that has propelled us in the arenas of science and industry. We simply need to stop giving away free money and services to people that have not, and will never pay into that system that provides that money.


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

sparkyprep said:


> We are a Nation built on the principal of open boarders. We are a Nation of mutts, and that is what makes us great. It is the mixing of cultures and ideas that has propelled us in the arenas of science and industry. We simply need to stop giving away free money and services to people that have not, and will never pay into that system that provides that money.


Please clarify one thing, who, living in this nation doesn't pay in to it? Just curious as everyone pays taxes in one form or other at many levels.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Undocumented workers do not pay income tax. Most do not even exist because they are paid in cash under the table. They live in a state paying for food and shelter (sometimes not paying for shelter) and the only taxes they pay are on the goods they purchase. As undocumented inhabitants they are not licensed to drive but some do own cars and drive them - without a license and without insurance.


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

PaulS said:


> Undocumented workers do not pay income tax. Most do not even exist because they are paid in cash under the table. They live in a state paying for food and shelter (sometimes not paying for shelter) and the only taxes they pay are on the goods they purchase. As undocumented inhabitants they are not licensed to drive but some do own cars and drive them - without a license and without insurance.


The do pay taxes and unless hired off the books, which is illegal by the employer. They then they do pay into the system regardless. Oh and I'll bet many more are working on the books than off especially in places like the farming industry.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

joec said:


> The do pay taxes and unless hired off the books, which is illegal by the employer. They then they do pay into the system regardless. Oh and I'll bet many more are working on the books than off especially in places like the farming industry.


How does an undocumented worker pay income tax? Without documentation there is no way to withhold taxes. The last time I checked you need a social security card to be hired (on the books). Even a 1099 requires documentation and a social security number. Undocumented workers cannot be legally hired but they still work and they do so without the protections afforded documented employees. They have no on-the-job injury care - so they use the emergency rooms at the hospital. They can't afford to pay so they use an assumed identity. They don't have protections about overtime pay so they often work more than 40 hours a week for minimum wages (sometimes less than the standard minimum wage) without vacations or sick leave. Once they are hurt they can lose their "job" or have to go for a time without working. They send their surplus money out of the country to family or friends.
Some work in the construction field and on their off time do work on their own - without the licenses or insurance that is required by law. 
How can you say that undocumented workers pay income tax?


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

PaulS said:


> How does an undocumented worker pay income tax? Without documentation there is no way to withhold taxes. The last time I checked you need a social security card to be hired (on the books). Even a 1099 requires documentation and a social security number. Undocumented workers cannot be legally hired but they still work and they do so without the protections afforded documented employees. They have no on-the-job injury care - so they use the emergency rooms at the hospital. They can't afford to pay so they use an assumed identity. They don't have protections about overtime pay so they often work more than 40 hours a week for minimum wages (sometimes less than the standard minimum wage) without vacations or sick leave. Once they are hurt they can lose their "job" or have to go for a time without working. They send their surplus money out of the country to family or friends.
> Some work in the construction field and on their off time do work on their own - without the licenses or insurance that is required by law.
> How can you say that undocumented workers pay income tax?


Did I say he pays income tax? I said he pays taxes on the gas he buys, rent for a place to live, utilities he uses and sales tax. Now not all illegals are hired off the books just as Tyson Foods for example or those here on a work visa that have stayed past their extension. The IRS sure doesn't cross reference if you are legal or illegal in this country either. They don't even cross reference birth and death certificates for the voter rolls in this country or issued ID.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

joec said:


> The do pay taxes and unless hired off the books, which is illegal by the employer. They then they do pay into the system regardless. Oh and I'll bet many more are working on the books than off especially in places like the farming industry.


I have to disagree with this. I have worked in the produce/veg farming industry for many years.. Some of the very large companies stick with 'documented" workers and I use that term loosely. The vast majority that had papers change them up almost every year. They use ss card from friends,family and whoever else they can get them from. Then they claim 8-10 dependents. There are a few that are working legally but not the majority.

Now when you get into the smaller to medium sized farms that is where the vast majority of illegals work. A lot pay cash and don't even bother with papers.. Over the years, even some of the ones I thought were documented turned out to be illegal. You could hear them talking about where they were going to get their next ss card or other paperwork for the next season.

Then come payday they were down the street at the habib store sending western union to Mexico. So the majority of the money they make doesn't even go here. I asked a few of them over the years about sending money to Mexico. They say they send more than half back there. That is why so amny live together and drive around together. It is a way to save money.. Actually, it is kind of smart.


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

PrepConsultant said:


> I have to disagree with this. I have worked in the produce/veg farming industry for many years.. Some of the very large companies stick with 'documented" workers and I use that term loosely. The vast majority that had papers change them up almost every year. They use ss card from friends,family and whoever else they can get them from. Then they claim 8-10 dependents. There are a few that are working legally but not the majority.
> 
> Now when you get into the smaller to medium sized farms that is where the vast majority of illegals work. A lot pay cash and don't even bother with papers.. Over the years, even some of the ones I thought were documented turned out to be illegal. You could hear them talking about where they were going to get their next ss card or other paperwork for the next season.
> 
> Then come payday they were down the street at the habib store sending western union to Mexico. So the majority of the money they make doesn't even go here. I asked a few of them over the years about sending money to Mexico. They say they send more than half back there. That is why so amny live together and drive around together. It is a way to save money.. Actually, it is kind of smart.


I don't disagee at all other than there are taxes on every item we consume except the air we breath so they pay into the system even though they don't pay income tax. Though when you think about the money the actually make for the work they do under the table if they where ligament they probably still wouldn't pay much income tax either.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

joec said:


> I don't disagee at all other than there are taxes on every item we consume except the air we breath so they pay into the system even though they don't pay income tax. Though when you think about the money the actually make for the work they do under the table if they where ligament they probably still wouldn't pay much income tax either.


Agreed, but when they send a majority of their paycheck to Mexico, they are not spending it here and it is not being taxed. So we are losing billions or more just on that alone. Add welfare and medical on top of that to illegals and they are costing this country a fortune.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

joec said:


> Did I say he pays income tax? I said he pays taxes on the gas he buys, rent for a place to live, utilities he uses and sales tax. Now not all illegals are hired off the books just as Tyson Foods for example or those here on a work visa that have stayed past their extension. The IRS sure doesn't cross reference if you are legal or illegal in this country either. They don't even cross reference birth and death certificates for the voter rolls in this country or issued ID.


You keep using the term "illegals" and I am talking about "undocumented". Not all "illegals" are undocumented. Like you say - those who stay after their visas expire - they are still documented workers. The vast majority of those who enter the USA are undocumented. They never went through the crossing station, they have no visas, and they are here to make money to send home. Those are undocumented workers. I worked for a company that hired a "contractor" for "lumpers" (men who unload and load trucks that have to be manually loaded). The "contractor" was an American citizen who filed his 1099 with the company but his workers were all undocumented workers. The company didn't care because they didn't actually "hire" the workers they dealt with the contractor. In some ways I felt bad for these guys because they were paid very little and had no benefits. One of them was injured on the job and was told that he couldn't seek medical care because he didn't have a Social Security card. He was told that if he complained he would not get his pay and he would lose his job. I was working for Sysco at the time and brought it up to our safety coordinator who replied that it was not his job to take care of the contractors business. At the same time I know that these guys are living in America for 9 months out of the year and not paying income taxes and sending dollars to Mexico. They are diving without a license or insurance. If they get into an accident it is just too bad for the other driver because there is no recourse - they have nothing you can sue for or attach for compensation. They are costing us a lot of money and taking jobs away from others who actually live here.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

Don't get me wrong. The guys that worked for me were some of the hardest working people I have ever seen. I would work em 100 hrs a week and they would ask to be on a cleanup crew or something to make more overtime. They never called in sick or complained about anything I ever asked them to do. There were several when I left my last company that wanted to come work for me out here.. I had over a dozen that followed me to 3 different places over the years. They would invite me to their homes for dinner and parties and I would have them over for parties and stuff. I always treated them with respect. I know some were legal and some of the others I questioned in my mind but wasn't sure. Just because they are good people doesn't mean they can break the law though. If someone wants to come here the right way and work hard like they did. I am ALL for it. But the ones that hop the fence and milk the system are not helping this country one bit..


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

PaulS said:


> You keep using the term "illegals" and I am talking about "undocumented". Not all "illegals" are undocumented. Like you say - those who stay after their visas expire - they are still documented workers. The vast majority of those who enter the USA are undocumented. They never went through the crossing station, they have no visas, and they are here to make money to send home. Those are undocumented workers. I worked for a company that hired a "contractor" for "lumpers" (men who unload and load trucks that have to be manually loaded). The "contractor" was an American citizen who filed his 1099 with the company but his workers were all undocumented workers. The company didn't care because they didn't actually "hire" the workers they dealt with the contractor. In some ways I felt bad for these guys because they were paid very little and had no benefits. One of them was injured on the job and was told that he couldn't seek medical care because he didn't have a Social Security card. He was told that if he complained he would not get his pay and he would lose his job. I was working for Sysco at the time and brought it up to our safety coordinator who replied that it was not his job to take care of the contractors business. At the same time I know that these guys are living in America for 9 months out of the year and not paying income taxes and sending dollars to Mexico. They are diving without a license or insurance. If they get into an accident it is just too bad for the other driver because there is no recourse - they have nothing you can sue for or attach for compensation. They are costing us a lot of money and taking jobs away from others who actually live here.


I am using the term illegal as that seems to be the current accepted term here. I don't have a problem with either term really as to me I really don't see a problem with immigration at all.

I had a tenant here for a year or so that bought and refinished foreclosed homes. He bragged one day about how he only hires undocumented workers because he pays them half of what he would pay documented workers. He also claimed he worked them longer hours with no breaks other than lunch. He eventually did go to jail but not for that but something else not related to his business practices. Sure don't miss him or his type either.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

Sounds like a scumbag..


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## joec (Nov 12, 2012)

PrepConsultant said:


> Sounds like a scumbag..


He also drove around in a new Mercedes or Porche but was always late paying his rent. You learn a lot about people when you own a storage business often more than you want to know.


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## Scotty12 (Jan 5, 2013)

Resistor makes a valid point. The notion at hand is that an immigrant is a person who intends to become a permanent resident. As a citizen you have rights and responsibilities that an illegal alien does not. When you mentioned the verbiage 'illegal alien" I think we have to understand that our entire global dynamic has changed since the inception of the constitution, hence the discussion of isolationism. People are coming here now not for the sole purpose of evading an oppressive regime, economic prosperity and so on but to do us harm. I think that becoming more of an isolationist nation may dissuade this in that we can reduce access to our borders. I do have to agree in that the unalienable rights are given by God almighty. Smart man resistor.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Isolationism has never worked in the past and it is not likely to work in the future. Having said that I don't think we should be the world's police either nor do I think we should monetarily support or coerce other nations to be our allies. Fiscal and technological blockades have never worked either so why do we continue to use them? Free trade and tolerance will go a lot farther than embargoes in working together as allies with other nations. WE don't have to be "friends" with those countries that attack us but we should try to talk before we bomb them into oblivion.


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## Scotty12 (Jan 5, 2013)

Do you think that there can be some middle ground achieved? Isolationism is not particularly preferable but we have to find some way to secure our borders. Some middle ground should be found somewhere. How can we fairly and safely determine who can be dealt with and who cannot? Our government has seem to drop the ball in this area. As far as bombing
someone I was personally shocked by the massive destruction I saw when the bombing of Iraq was televised. Not pretty.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

We have immigration laws that have worked in the past and those laws, if followed would still work today. We as a free people have every right to determine who is eligible to enter our borders for any purpose including to become citizens. We do not need to be isolationists in order to accomplish the safety of our borders and our citizens.


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## Scotty12 (Jan 5, 2013)

I will happily concede your point if we can do that. I do not question your reasoning I am just not certain that immigration laws that could work could be implemented. I also may have to rethink my position on isolationism as a fix. The only real correlation I found on the web was through wikileaks. I didn't read it. Perhaps I was educated. I found an article in the Los Angeles Times yesterday that stated that most Americans wanted restraint but not isolationism Americans favor not isolationism but restraint - latimes.com


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I enjoy a good discussion and this has been one. Discussions don't require concessions as they are meant to explore all sides of a topic and I believe we have done our best. You have made me consider my views and yours so we did well.
blessings!


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

PaulS said:


> Undocumented workers do not pay income tax. Most do not even exist because they are paid in cash under the table. They live in a state paying for food and shelter (sometimes not paying for shelter) and the only taxes they pay are on the goods they purchase. As undocumented inhabitants they are not licensed to drive but some do own cars and drive them - without a license and without insurance.


This wholly and *absolutely* false. Furthermore, even if it were not true, who really gives a rat's a55??? I mean, really? PaulS, you once laid claim to believing in the Constitution. Surely you realize that the 16th Amendment which purportedly authorized an income tax was itself unconstitutionally passed. NOTHING can be more tyrannical than to steal a man's labor in the form of taxes.

There are some things that really irk me. One of them is people falsely claiming that people do not pay taxes that those who worked in the field KNOW is not true and then to pretend an interest on rebuilding America on the premise of an unconstitutional tax.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I agree that the 16th amendment is wholly unconstitutional. Even if it had been properly ratified it is in direct conflict with the constitution. 
My point with undocumented workers is that they take from the system without putting in. Undocumented workers have no way in which to support the services that they receive while those of us who pay in are having to pay their share too.


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## Scotty12 (Jan 5, 2013)

What would be great would be go back to the flat 4% rate before the 16th. lol


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

joec said:


> I am using the term illegal as that seems to be the current accepted term here. I don't have a problem with either term really as to me I really don't see a problem with immigration at all.
> 
> I had a tenant here for a year or so that bought and refinished foreclosed homes. He bragged one day about how he only hires undocumented workers because he pays them half of what he would pay documented workers. He also claimed he worked them longer hours with no breaks other than lunch. He eventually did go to jail but not for that but something else not related to his business practices. Sure don't miss him or his type either.


You should have a problem with calling anyone an "_illegal alien_." Let me give you the top five reasons why:

1) Our nation was predicated upon the presupposition that a person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of their peers. When you call someone an _"illegal_" alien / immigrant you set the stage for a bad precedent to be set whereby Due Process is denied to any unpopular group by virtue of stare decisis (aka precedent law)

2) You are also among people that claim they believe in the current immigration laws. Those laws like the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (cited in one of my earlier posts) makes the assertion that immigrants have a "_Right_" to become naturalized citizens. Meanwhile, CIVIL statutes do not cover many fact situations whereby some foreigners can come here. Again, using precedent law, since government cannot legitimately grant Rights, then if you agree with the left, the government can limit your constitutional guarantees by virtue of the precedent you're helping to create

3) There is no law making entry nor presence without papers a crime in the United States. It was tried, but the bill failed

4) The biggest objection many on this board have regarding immigrants is the false assumption that they do not pay taxes. The ONLY tax they end up admitting is that not all undocumented foreigners have a Socialist Surveillance Number. Well, according to the Socialist Security Administration, about 75 percent of undocumented workers have an *Individual Taxpayer Identification Number* and DO pay the income tax

5) Even IF foreigners did not pay the income tax, you have to remember the income tax is predicated upon an illegally ratified Amendment to the Constitution and the graduated income tax comes to us directly from the Communist Manifesto.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Rebuild America

1) Abolish the income tax, the 16th Amendment and the Federal Reserve

2) Have the illegally ratified 14th Amendment declared null and void

3) Eliminate all unconstitutional and unnecessary federal entities like the federal Dept. of Education, Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security, etc.

4) Abolish the BATFE and place all alcohol and tobacco offenses under the jurisdiction of the DEA while gun violations could be handled by the FBI AFTER eliminating about half or more of the more onerous ones

5) Place all welfare under the jurisdiction of state governments

6) Repeal Obamacare

7) Allow people to voluntarily opt of Socialist Security and have their own private, tax free retirement account

8) Shut down the womb to the tomb surveillance of Americans; repeal Constitution Free Zones, National ID / REAL ID Act and the so - called "_Patriot Act_"

9) Give substantial tax incentives to businesses that keep their businesses in America and hire American citizens

10) Cut governmental regulations that are stifling growth in business


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The Resister said:


> Rebuild America
> 
> 1) Abolish the income tax, the 16th Amendment and the Federal Reserve
> 
> ...


I can't see anything there I would veto other than incentives to businesses. I would punish them for taking their business off shore rather than give them anything for remaining here. 
If you are doing away with income tax then what would the incentives be?


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

PaulS said:


> I can't see anything there I would veto other than incentives to businesses. I would punish them for taking their business off shore rather than give them anything for remaining here.
> If you are doing away with income tax then what would the incentives be?


The income tax and the corporate tax applied to business are different taxes. Businesses currently pay about roughly 39 percent in taxes. Here is how to lessen the burden. Give out tax breaks for the following:

1) Employers who employ more than 85 percent native born Americans should be given a tax break

2) Strong incentives for those employers that maintain more than 85 percent of their business inside the U.S. rather than outsourcing

3) Tax incentives for employers that pay all their employees at least 15 percent more than what the federal government determines is poverty level wages

4) Strong incentives for those employers that pay at least 25 percent matching funds into the employees 401 k

I don't understand the logic behind punishing employers that take their business elsewhere. If you make it too undesirable, businesses simply won't come here. Even if you did run out the foreign owned businesses, you would need a plan to create jobs for the millions of positions that you lose once the foreign based employers leave.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

The Resister said:


> Rebuild America
> 
> 1) Abolish the income tax, the 16th Amendment and the Federal Reserve
> 
> ...


A good start.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

We are nearing the end of the world. I actually agree with Resister. smh

Foreign owners like Honda and Toyota put a lot of money into our economy. They need to be left alone.

Tax burdens and unrealistic regulations on US companies is what caused them to leave in the first place. Under current US regulations each and everyone of us is breaking the law at some point. This is ludicrous. We have enough regulations to drive everyone out of business.

We have so many federal agencies that are completely useless. The main cry there is from federal employees who would loose their jobs. TFB. They helped create this mess. 

States were created to be separate entities. States need to take back their authority. The feds need to keep out of our business.

The federal govt needs to be out of the welfare business. Allow this to be the province of churches and communities as it used to be. The feds could screw up a wet dream.

BATF was created because when prohibition was repealed, many govt workers would loose their job. Give me a break. Let them find other work. This applies to other agencies like HHS, DHS, dept of Education and many others.

The federal govt has made a joke out of social security. Ironically it was the Democrats who decided that the surplus in SS needed to be used to fund other useless projects. Then they decided all of the funds needed to be spent elsewhere. Now they call it an entitlement. We have paid into this all our working lives. Allow those who choose to pay into a 401k or other retirement fund do so. 

Damn, I could go on and on here.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

I found it odd that this thread kind of petered out the moment we started coming up with solutions. What's up with that?


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

inceptor said:


> We are nearing the end of the world. I actually agree with Resister. smh
> 
> Foreign owners like Honda and Toyota put a lot of money into our economy. They need to be left alone.
> 
> ...


Keep going. these are all fine ideas. The problem remains...where do find the Patriots willing and able to get elected and make the changes in DC?


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

The Resister said:


> I found it odd that this thread kind of petered out the moment we started coming up with solutions. What's up with that?


nature of forums...

my suggestion, no world leadership or government for the next 4 years, all "government employees" are put on 4 year contracts and all government departments given a 4 year honest budget, and if they go over by 1 cent, the people responsible, are shot

keep social security, reform, unemployed for 6 months, goto school or do "volunteer work", (even compulsory service, but a military force like what the marines were in ww2 but a new military arm) ditch food stamps, introduce the Australian Medicare system (word for word as is) as a healthcare system in the states (where earning over 60k a year, it's cheaper going private, but make it all tax payers are covered as part of their taxs)

firearm law reform, a federal baseline so simplify owning a gun (one rule for one state is the same as the other) introduce different categories to firearms, and to own one (I don't know US law bear with me) you must to a safety and basic maintenance course on the firearm class, and must have a 10 year clean criminal record (low lvl shit) and 15 years clean on serious drug offences and violence

boarder reform, no.idea where to start, but strongly acceptable to "shoot on site"

get rid of the many levels of government, and as many "seats" with modern technology there doesn't need to be so many levels,(dont know where to start)

fix voting, only people can vote, and each vote counts as one, schools and universitys have 0 voting power (this is rumor if they do in US politics)

tax reform, ditch the lot, add a simple income tax, a gst, all other hidden taxes are now illegal

all public spending, available for the world to see (only 5% is unavailable, for clear reasons)

clear policies, simple wording in black and white so anyone can follow will be seen to vote on

environment reform (lets face it, be the cleanest country in.the world)

native policy reform, big reform, you can't keep blaming us for what happened generations ago, cut off all financial support, time to be big people in the world

rights, go back to the US constitution

bible, use of this religious text is to be used in the study of us history, and if you don't like it **** off

bible, the USA was founded on the bible, you will swear on the bible, or other holy scripture with the bible, as well as the national flag in court

international politics, leave China the **** alone, give stern warning, you **** with us interests we WILL goto war,

middle east, leaving Afghanistan and Iraq are the biggest mistakes the world can make, have a US military base in both countries, to be used to support local forces (these countries have been ****ed for generations, 10years is not long enough)

united nations, move head office to Alaska, they want to stay in the USA they can stay there

make it known, burn the USA flag ,kiss a USA cruise missile.... don't like it don't burn our flag then

start a arms race with China, in technology, the USA was the best developer of technology in the world, now it's almost as bad as Africa

strengthen old alliances, maybe start some new ones but any county don't like me, a letter with the words **** off, and no aid for you sent

lots more but this will do


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

pheniox17 said:


> nature of forums...
> 
> my suggestion, no world leadership or government for the next 4 years, all "government employees" are put on 4 year contracts and all government departments given a 4 year honest budget, and if they go over by 1 cent, the people responsible, are shot
> 
> ...


Pheniox,

We have too many departments here so we need to do away with them.
If the Social Security funds had been left alone there would be a lot of surplus - they have collected more money for SS than they have paid out every year it has been in place.
I agree we need firearm law reform - not classes, not licenses but no laws other than a mental and criminal history check - the databases are already public record so it is easy to see if someone is a felon or mentally prohibited from owning a gun. Beyond that no laws - none. Open carry, concealed carry anywhere in the USA. If you commit a crime and are a felon and don't get to own one anymore.

Corrections to government .... I would like to see congress done away with but that would go against the constitution so we need another way to deal with the excesses and bribes to make it functional again. Maybe pass a law that they have to support themselves - room and board - while they are in office. Limit their salaries to the median earnings of those they represent. Make receiving any gifts a felony and punishable by instant removal from office and a trial. Registered voters get an ID card with thumb print that must be shown to vote. When a person dies the card is also killed. 
Burning the flag is a right to freely express one's thoughts, and is protected by the first amendment - despite the fact that it frosts my @$$ when I see it.
Encourage new businesses by cutting out the excess paperwork and taxes on those start-up enterprises that show a profit.
Keep religion separate from any and all government proceedings - again the first amendment. If they swear on a book they don't believe in it means nothing anyway. The USA was founded by Quakers, deists, and agnostics, there wasn't a "Christian" among them. The Christians were in England and that country is still a Christian state. We don't have a state religion and never have or will. This is a country of laws - if you break a law you pay the penalty. That is the only way it will work.
Welfare should last no more than two years for anyone not physically or mentally impaired. Let it provide interest free educational loans to get a person trained for a job they are suited to and then that's it. Work or starve. We tried the socialist approach in the first colony in America and just about everybody died in the attempt. The second year they installed work or die rules and all those who couldn't work were suddenly able to work and be productive members of the Jamestown colony. We need to duplicate that resolution.

We need to get government back under the controls of the people and get rid of all the agencies that are unlawful extensions of the executive branch. We need to get out of foreign countries and let them make their own mistakes. No foreign aid by the government - if they have money to throw away then we are giving them too much.

The income tax is in direct conflict with the constitution's guidelines and it needs to disappear. If they want a tax let it meet the restrictions set forth in the constitution.

Pull all the ambassadors out of countries that profess to be against our way of life. If US citizens want to travel to those countries they do so at their own risk.

If we can't do that then maybe it is time to write a new constitution with which we can.

Voting can be more helpful to the nation as a whole if we modify it. I have a way to do so but it is too involved for this post.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

pheniox17 said:


> keep social security, reform, unemployed for 6 months, goto school or do "volunteer work", (even compulsory service, but a military force like what the marines were in ww2 but a new military arm) ditch food stamps, introduce the Australian Medicare system (word for word as is) as a healthcare system in the states (where earning over 60k a year, it's cheaper going private, but make it all tax payers are covered as part of their taxs)
> 
> firearm law reform, a federal baseline so simplify owning a gun (one rule for one state is the same as the other) introduce different categories to firearms, and to own one (I don't know US law bear with me) you must to a safety and basic maintenance course on the firearm class, and must have a 10 year clean criminal record (low lvl shit) and 15 years clean on serious drug offences and violence
> 
> ...


I wanted to comment on your post. In previous posts, I have stated that the mainstream Ds, Rs and now the Tea Party have only become consistent with inconsistency. Some of what you allude to has come to us via the Tea Party and "_Social Conservatives._" It is in error (if you want to rebuild America), so let me clarify some things for you:

In the case of the United States v. Cruikshank in 1876, the United States Supreme Court ruled:

_"Bearing arms for a lawful purpose. . . . is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence_."

The Right to keep and Bear Arms existed before the adoption of the Constitution. It is an *unalienable* Right. Therefore, the government cannot declare people ineligible to own one. You can be punished for a crime, but you must be returned to society as an equal with your Rights intact (IF you believe in the Constitution and the principles of Liberty and *unalienable* Rights.) Today, one can "lose" their Rights under this de facto (illegal) government for alleged crimes that are nothing more than misdemeanors where hearsay can be used to secure a conviction. Even in felonies, if violence was not used, how can we justify withholding a Right once someone did the time?

If someone cannot be trusted with their Rights, then the "criminal justice system" did not do its job. They need to punish offenders, rehabilitate them and then require them to pay restitution. Then you return them to society and if you cannot trust them with their Rights, why are you turning them loose back into society?

Next, we get to the issue of "boarder" (sic) reform. So you would shoot anyone on sight that crosses the border? It's not even a crime to enter or be in the United States without papers. It is purely a civil issue. You would shoot someone for crossing a border when they have a Right to do so??? Don't get me wrong. I have told the people on these boards for YEARS that I do not believe in the immigration laws. Most of them refuse to read them and interpret them consistent with the way the immigration officials have interpreted and applied the law.

Suffice it to say, foreigners have a Right to become a naturalized citizen. So, you would shoot them? On what basis? Here is the reality:

*OUR* laws clearly state that a person has a Right to become a naturalized citizen (a proposition I clearly disagree with.) But, while declaring that, they do not contemplate situations OTHER THAN citizenship whereby people come here to work. We have no credible Guest Worker Program. But, that's only half the issue.

*Mexico* sometimes prevents a lot of people from coming into the U.S. when they could so in a proper fashion. Instead, Mexico don't allow proper travel between Mexico and the U.S. They DO print comic books instructing Mexican citizens on how to enter the U.S. and avoid contact with the Border Patrol. If you want to rebuild America, you have to come to your senses on this. You cannot lock people out. At the same time, it is cultural suicide to require people to become citizens in order to exercise God given *unalienable* Rights. The real issue with migrant workers from south of the border is that you have to eliminate the income tax and other tyrannical restrictions so as to make it feasible for an employer to hire U.S. born workers.

We need to quit fretting over minimum wage workers from south of the border and concern ourselves with the MILLIONS of foreigners who sit in colleges and universities while our people are content to live off welfare, fill their body with tattoo ink and drugs, body piercings, etc.


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