# Eric Snowden: Patriot or Traitor?



## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

I know this is gonna touch a nerve, and may have already been touched on here, so if it has been let it die a quick death.

Personally, I'd have to go with traitor. Most of us, I hope anyway, realized long ago that we are under some sort of gov't surveillance since 9/11. I used to sort of be in that business back in the mid '80s and WE DID NOT, to the best of my knowledge anyway, collect any data about US citizens at that time. As a matter of fact, we went to extraordinary means not to. That was the '80s and this is today. IMHO the gov't hasn't yet crossed the line into imposing on my privacy...yet. So, until further evidence comes out that the gov't was doing more than what has been published, I'd have to say traitor. If he divulges info that says otherwise...well, we'll just have to see.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

I've heard from all sides of the issue. The privacy advocates are right: Snowden is a hero.

We suspect that the government is spying on us. Of all the information that Snowden has, only about 2 percent of it has been used. Most of that only opened the door to a deeper debate about how far we want Uncle Scam to be able to spy on us without a warrant. If the Fourth Amendment is worth anything at all, it is worth discussing.

Just this week, the NSA has had to admit that they collect phone records from all of us without a warrant. When I was a teen, this was a no brainer - no warrant no phone records. Yet, now this issue is going before the United States Supreme Court at some point. Ultimately the Social Conservatives will probably win and the Fourth Amendment won't be worth wiping your a55 on. Should that happen, it should elicit some response from civil libertarians. Tyranny by any other name is still tyranny.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of agencies like the NSA getting away with lying to Congress and then being rewarded with even more POLICE STATE powers. Thank God Snowden had the courage to make sure we had the debate. Otherwise, it would have been out of sight, out of mind.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Speaking the truth should never be a crime.


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

Snowden is a Patriot, and a guardian of the American Idea


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

Guys, I'm also inclined to agree with you. But unless further revelations reveal that the gov't went beyond the "meta"data, they haven't broken the line of invading our privacy, especially if they had FISA approval. Now, if the gov't has...then Snowden is correctly a patriot. But so far, we haven't seen evidence of that, or at least I haven't. But he has so far broken several laws pertaining to security clearances.

Resister, if they collected anything more than this number called this number, I agree with you 100%. Then, it invades on our constitutional right to privacy. And we can have a long and spirited debate on what constitutes our right to privacy...I'll put my lawyer against your lawyer any day...lol


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Both , he could have found another way to do what he did. It is already clear they went far beyond collecting numbers .


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

Just saw an article that reports that the NSA is intercepting laptops bought online before they reach their owners and installing malware/ spyware, and then sending them on to their owners, all in secret.


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

I stopped a little soon...

At some point, we have to realize that we either have to stop saying "Why didn't the gov't stop this _name your event_? Or we are just going to have to live with the consequences of the gov't trying to stop a terrorist attack that is planned and financed 5000 miles away in the blind. We can't have it both ways without some sort of leeway. And part of the equation is that we need to, as voters, put the most qualified and intelligent people in office. I can't rant about that enough.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, in today's world, if you don't want the government in it, be prepared for Achmed to interupt your daily routine.


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

sparkyprep said:


> Just saw an article that reports that the NSA is intercepting laptops bought online before they reach their owners and installing malware/ spyware, and then sending them on to their owners, all in secret.


Really, these are the same folks that brought us the Obamacare website? The NSA doesn't have the manpower unless they subcontract it out...


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Both , he could have found another way to do what he did. It is already clear they went far beyond collecting numbers .


But did it have FISA approval?


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I've from the government and I'm here to help you! One thing I will not tolerate, and I'm out spoken about it at work, Don't bird dog me!!! If you don't like my job performance, fire my ass, or back off!! Those that will give up liberty in the name of temporary security deserve neither!! That's not my quote, but one from someone waaaay smarter than me! I hate like heck someone looking over my shoulder all the time, dammit, I'm a free man and don't need anyones approval to do what I enjoy doing. I'm not harming any one else!!


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

Patriot.


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

1skrewsloose said:


> I've from the government and I'm here to help you! One thing I will not tolerate, and I'm out spoken about it at work, Don't bird dog me!!! If you don't like my job performance, fire my ass, or back off!! Those that will give up liberty in the name of temporary security deserve neither!! That's not my quote, but one from someone waaaay smarter than me! I hate like heck someone looking over my shoulder all the time, dammit, I'm a free man and don't need anyones approval to do what I enjoy doing. I'm not harming any one else!!


Can I fire your ass?...the government seems to be a little over budget! lol


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## Mike45 (Dec 29, 2013)

This will probably piss a few people off, but this is a different look at it. He’s a traitor. There are a LOT of people that (like him) signed non-disclosure agreements to not talk about what they have seen for (I believe) 70 years (making him a traitor). I signed one, and will not talk about what we did no matter what. Why? Because I said I wouldn’t, and if I can’t honor my word, what good am I? We did nothing illegal or against anyone in the USA. But by divulging top secret information he placed other Americans in danger all in the interest of doing what he thought was right (traitor). If they are in fact reading my emails, honestly, I do not care-read them. I am sure they do not care about my boring life, since I am rarely on the phone there is nothing to listen to there either. But think about this logically, the NSA has a lot of computing power-however, they do not have enough to record every single email and phone call generated in this country every day in addition to the rest of the world they have to monitor to watch for bad guys. I think there are people here in this country that have probably done things to get someones attention, and most likely should be watched. Given the liberal’s affinity for foreigners, we have allowed the enemy to enter our borders-how else are they supposed to find them?


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Thanks man, I was kinda blowin off steam, but meant every word. At times I get wound up, I'm the kinda guy who gets po'd when folks don't stand at a parade when the American Flag goes by! This goes to bigdog. Peace Bro


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Mike45 said:


> This will probably piss a few people off, but this is a different look at it. He's a traitor. There are a LOT of people that (like him) signed non-disclosure agreements to not talk about what they have seen for (I believe) 70 years (making him a traitor). I signed one, and will not talk about what we did no matter what. Why? Because I said I wouldn't, and if I can't honor my word, what good am I? We did nothing illegal or against anyone in the USA. But by divulging top secret information he placed other Americans in danger all in the interest of doing what he thought was right (traitor). If they are in fact reading my emails, honestly, I do not care-read them. I am sure they do not care about my boring life, since I am rarely on the phone there is nothing to listen to there either. But think about this logically, the NSA has a lot of computing power-however, they do not have enough to record every single email and phone call generated in this country every day in addition to the rest of the world they have to monitor to watch for bad guys. I think there are people here in this country that have probably done things to get someones attention, and most likely should be watched. Given the liberal's affinity for foreigners, we have allowed the enemy to enter our borders-how else are they supposed to find them?


So you say the ends justify the means? If a soldier is given an immoral command he must follow it? I'm at a loss here, not sure what to believe, but for sure would have no doubts backing the constituition over some executive order!


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## Nathan Jefferson (May 11, 2013)

Wait, what's FISA? I can't find it in my pocket constitution...


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

If non disclosure is all binding then the guy the blew the whistle on Fast and Furious is also a traitor. 

The feds don't need a super capacity storage facility in Utah to spy on terrorists. They are collecting info to be used at a later date. If and when they need something on you, they will have it at their fingertips. Phone calls, emails, internet sites you visited, all at the touch of a button.

I think Snowden is a traitor for aiding our enemies. He has provided Russia, China and other countries with secrets he smuggled out of this country.


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

Mike45 said:


> This will probably piss a few people off, but this is a different look at it. He's a traitor. There are a LOT of people that (like him) signed non-disclosure agreements to not talk about what they have seen for (I believe) 70 years (making him a traitor). I signed one, and will not talk about what we did no matter what. Why? Because I said I wouldn't, and if I can't honor my word, what good am I? We did nothing illegal or against anyone in the USA. But by divulging top secret information he placed other Americans in danger all in the interest of doing what he thought was right (traitor). If they are in fact reading my emails, honestly, I do not care-read them. I am sure they do not care about my boring life, since I am rarely on the phone there is nothing to listen to there either. But think about this logically, the NSA has a lot of computing power-however, they do not have enough to record every single email and phone call generated in this country every day in addition to the rest of the world they have to monitor to watch for bad guys. I think there are people here in this country that have probably done things to get someones attention, and most likely should be watched. Given the liberal's affinity for foreigners, we have allowed the enemy to enter our borders-how else are they supposed to find them?


 Mike, I gotta agree and disagree with you on this. As far as the security agreements, or nondisclosures go, yeah, he signed one, I signed one, you signed one...UNLESS by witholding the information would violate the oath that I took (and I presume you did) to preserve and defend the constitution. So there is an "out" there.

And if the NSA, CIA, FBI or any other alphabet soup agency is listening in on my phone calls, email, texts, ULF transmits or other forms of communication, without a FISA or other court ordered warrant, then they are breaking the law. I do have a right to expect privacy from gov't scrutiny. Now if a suspected terrorist misdials his call and gets me, and the gov't finds that thru metadata and then gets a warrant, then by all means listen to my phone calls. They will be very short and very boring. That is okay. They have not infringed on my right to privacy because a ********* is dyslexic with numbers. They have the responsibility to follow that lead. But that's how it's got to play out.

As far as the gov'ts capabilities today...I don't even want to think about what they can do today...I know what they could do in the '80's.


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

Inceptor, it wouldn't let me like your post... LIKE


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

This is a tough one. I cannot call Snowden a "traitor", but I cannot call him a "patriot" either. At the end of the day I guess I think he is a kid that was motivated to do the right thing and made some colossally stupid decisions on how to do it.

On Snowden's positive side, I REALLY do not want the government collecting any kind of data on me without a specific reason and and a REAL judge's approval. I do not agree with the FISA courts being able to approve surveillance of ANY American citizen and am only slightly more sympathetic to allowing them to approve surveillance on foreign nationals. Plus, now with the expanded authority in the NDAA that allows the collection data across 7 layers of association without additional court approval, it effectively allows them to collect data on EVERY American citizen without the supervision of a court.

Furthermore, the idea that the NSA is "only collecting metadata" does not give me any comfort. Metadata could be used to target political opponents or anybody else this or a future administration finds bothersome. It opens the door for the same type of smear the Dems did on Robert Bork, but now they can do it to anybody not just high profile political and judicial adversaries.

On Snowden's negative side, he DID sign a non-disclosure agreement. He disclosed classified information to a FOREIGN reporter and then to at least two adversarial governments. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE good enough to overlook that fact. I do not think he should be hung as a traitor, but I do think he should do a few years in prison for divulging classified information to foreign governments.

Just to clarify how I think he _should _have handled it... He should have gone to 3 or 4 Senators and/or Congresscritters with his info first. I have to believe that out of 535 of them, there are at least a couple that would be honest enough to follow it up without endangering all of our foreign intelligence operatives. Six months or a year later, if the Congresscritter/Senator was not following it up, then _maybe _expose what was happening to the American media without exposing anything classified.

But as I said in my first sentence, this is a REALLY tough one.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Well stated Inor.


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## taps50 (Sep 28, 2013)

The only problem with these agencies is that we done elect them into office they are appointed by the President, and there for they work toward their goals not necessarily what's it the best interest of the American people. At least that is how I believe it works, please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

It's a fine line between traitor and patriot. For me he is more a freedom fighter. I'll take Snowden over 99.9% of all politicians, lawyers and celeberties<sp?. If much more is released he will probably be the victim of a drone strike and it won't be because he is releasing false info.

+95% for Snowden


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I've stayed out of this - until now. You know me, keeping quiet isn't my strong suit.

This isn't about the alleged war on terror. Not as what we want to think it is. Problem is, who they have labelled as terrorists, who they track, and who they have vilified, is the problem. 

Our government is way out of bounds and it hides behind the flag and a bogeyman to do things that are what the founders would have tolerated. We are entangled in affairs of the world that benefits entities other than this nation, and the founders warned us of such activity. We, the People, reap the consequences and the government strangles our liberties and hides behind clearance levels while doing evil.

Is Snowden a patriot or a traitor? I don't know what his motives are, but I can tell you what I think of those controlling our government.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

When you sign a non-disclosure agreement does that take away your right to speak out about unlawful acts?

I don't believe it does. If you are working for a company that does research and development for the military you have to sign a paper that say you won't discuss it with anyone outside of those who know the same things you know. If you find out that the government is using "xyz" to endanger the public secretly are you bound by that contract not to report it? what is more important at that point, the contract you signed or the legality of spraying Sarin gas over American cities from medium altitude aircraft? 

As an individual you have a primary duty to the constitutional limitations on the federal government. If you would take your contract over that primary duty to protect your rights and the rights and freedoms of others then you have forgotten what it means to be an American Patriot.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

PaulS said:


> When you sign a non-disclosure agreement does that take away your right to speak out about unlawful acts?
> 
> I don't believe it does. If you are working for a company that does research and development for the military you have to sign a paper that say you won't discuss it with anyone outside of those who know the same things you know. If you find out that the government is using "xyz" to endanger the public secretly are you bound by that contract not to report it? what is more important at that point, the contract you signed or the legality of spraying Sarin gas over American cities from medium altitude aircraft?
> 
> As an individual you have a primary duty to the constitutional limitations on the federal government. If you would take your contract over that primary duty to protect your rights and the rights and freedoms of others then you have forgotten what it means to be an American Patriot.


Paul, I think you are a master with words. I would suggest you run for some important political position but I don't want to impune your character.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

PaulS said:


> When you sign a non-disclosure agreement does that take away your right to speak out about unlawful acts?
> 
> I don't believe it does. If you are working for a company that does research and development for the military you have to sign a paper that say you won't discuss it with anyone outside of those who know the same things you know. If you find out that the government is using "xyz" to endanger the public secretly are you bound by that contract not to report it? what is more important at that point, the contract you signed or the legality of spraying Sarin gas over American cities from medium altitude aircraft?
> 
> As an individual you have a primary duty to the constitutional limitations on the federal government. If you would take your contract over that primary duty to protect your rights and the rights and freedoms of others then you have forgotten what it means to be an American Patriot.


I agree with you in principal Paul. But in this case, there are ways he could have made his information known and maybe had an even greater impact by reporting what he knew to sympathetic members of the Legislative branch (who do have the necessary security clearances to allow him to speak without breaking his word that he gave when signing NDA). I totally agree that our obligation to the Constitution trumps an obligation to a contract. But in this case it was possible (and probably easier) to honor both. His motives may have been right, but his execution was entirely wrong.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I don't understand that there is a wrong way to report unlawful acts by the government. Sure he could have gone to congress and they might have listened - unless they were getting their cut and then he would have evaporated and nobody would have known a thing. All too often the government is well aware of what the "agencies" are doing. They are complicit in the lawbreaking - that's why they form the grey and black ops agencies. They can say "we didn't know that" when it is the reason for the agency's existence. 

If I am going to report on government wrong-doing I am sure as heck not going to report it to the government - that would be suicide, professionally and physically. You take that kind of information to a news agency that can get it out in the open. Alert as many people as you can that you have found this out and it is unlawful. 
A cop doesn't tell his shift commander that his partner is dirty - the commander might be in on it. You take it someplace disconnected from the system. You better be sure that you have some insurance that can save your life if you "evaporate" too.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

PaulS said:


> If I am going to report on government wrong-doing I am sure as heck not going to report it to the government - that would be suicide, professionally and physically.


That is why the Founders set up the Republic the way they did. I refuse to believe that whole "check and balance" thing is completely dead yet. If we are truly Constitutionals, then we need to follow the remedies prescribed by the Founders as well.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The founders left the control of the federal government to the states and the people (individually). Snowden did nothing wrong. I don't consider him a hero or a patriot but he did nothing wrong. He is a citizen who reported unlawful acts by or federal government. I believe it would have been better to have openly given his own name but under the conditions and the agency in which he was employed, I can understand his desire for safety.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowden did nothing wrong reporting the abuses of the NSA - absolutely. But he did do wrong in exposing classified information to foreign journalists and even worse foreign governments.

As I said in my first post, I do not have a problem with WHAT Snowden did; I have a real problem with the WAY he did it. We are Americans. We keep American problems in America. Snowden broke that rule and gave information that puts other Americans at risk to our adversaries. That, I cannot condone.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Sorry, the agency put those people at risk by supporting and practicing unlawful actions. Place the responsibility on the responsible parties.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Many of the operatives exposed by Snowden giving information to Ivan and Ming are not doing anything illegal - they are protecting your butt and mine. I would venture to guess that more than 90% of the names Snowden has given to Putin have nothing to do with spying on Americans.

Again I say: this was not a binary choice between freedom and security. He could have handled it differently and exposed the infringement on liberty without making us less secure. He chose otherwise. That being said, I also refer back to my original post on the subject, I do not think he is a traitor, just an idiot.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Inor, I respect you and I respect your opinion but mine is different. I guess we will have to leave it at that.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

PaulS said:


> Inor, I respect you and I respect your opinion but mine is different. I guess we will have to leave it at that.


God bless you Paul! It is fun and educational to discuss things with you when we disagree. Thanks!


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

It was a good discussion and we both presented good views. Thank you!

oh, and God bless!


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Big Brother is here right now watching US probably watching what I am typing right now Edward Just made it front page news. Does Uncle Sam need to mine Data? Did Clinton, GW, or Obummer stop 911, Benghazi, Boston, OKC, Ft Hood or any other Terroist attack No and if they stopped anything they would have gone to CNN and said look look look I stopped this because Data Mining works, its Bullshit Edward Snowden good or bad gave YOU-AMERICA a wake up call. He is a man of PRINCIPAL, Something this country is losing by the day. Hero, Patriot? maybe - maybe not, But Principals, Character and Integrity he has more than any elected official. Remember the NSA is data mining every phone call you make and probably every website you visit.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Mike45 said:


> This will probably piss a few people off, but this is a different look at it. He's a traitor. There are a LOT of people that (like him) signed non-disclosure agreements to not talk about what they have seen for (I believe) 70 years (making him a traitor). I signed one, and will not talk about what we did no matter what. Why? Because I said I wouldn't, and if I can't honor my word, what good am I? We did nothing illegal or against anyone in the USA. But by divulging top secret information he placed other Americans in danger all in the interest of doing what he thought was right (traitor). If they are in fact reading my emails, honestly, I do not care-read them. I am sure they do not care about my boring life, since I am rarely on the phone there is nothing to listen to there either. But think about this logically, the NSA has a lot of computing power-however, they do not have enough to record every single email and phone call generated in this country every day in addition to the rest of the world they have to monitor to watch for bad guys. I think there are people here in this country that have probably done things to get someones attention, and most likely should be watched. Given the liberal's affinity for foreigners, we have allowed the enemy to enter our borders-how else are they supposed to find them?


I have listened to the top security analysts in the world. Snowden most assuredly did not endanger Americans. He used less than 2 percent of the information at his disposal and only to the extent that it violated our Constitutional guarantees.


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## Old Man (Dec 10, 2012)

The Resister said:


> I've heard from all sides of the issue. The privacy advocates are right: Snowden is a hero.
> 
> We suspect that the government is spying on us. Of all the information that Snowden has, only about 2 percent of it has been used. Most of that only opened the door to a deeper debate about how far we want Uncle Scam to be able to spy on us without a warrant. If the Fourth Amendment is worth anything at all, it is worth discussing.
> 
> ...


 You are right on!!!! We are in a POLICE STATE. An our goverment is not going to stop anytime soon.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Our Government is supposed to be a system of checks and balances. Remember Clapper LYING to Congress as to whether or not the NSA spies on U.S. Citizens inside the United States? He flat out LIED. What happened to him for LYING under oath to Congress? NOTHING Then we have the secret courts that are overseeing the agencies spying on U.S. Citizens. Know how many of these little projects they have disproved? NONE. They have approved every one of them. Way to look out of the RIGHTS of Citizens!

Both Hitler and Stalin would have LOVED these programs.


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

Yeah, this hit a nerve.

There doesn't seem to be much middle ground between patriot and traitor. I think my position is closest to Inor's here. Snowden's motives might have been good, but his execution lacked any finesse. And I don't believe that breaking a non-disclosure agreement, even to foriegn sources in certain instances, is grounds for being labeled a traitor, otherwise 80% of our politicians and their staff would fall under that category.

I do believe that he felt that he was exposing an illegal operation by a government agency against American citizens. The very same thing that I would have felt compelled to do had I been in the same situation. And yes, I have been involved in NSA and military intelligence gathering operations. But my sworn oath was first to the United States and its constitution, and had I been aware of any illegal operation, would have been duty bound to report it. Now, this was all in the '80's, a very different time, but I would like to think that I could have figured out a better way to do it. But who is to say these days the best way? What if there is evidence that our politicians are really on the take?

That brings up another point...we really don't know what other classified material he posesses. Did he just scoop up everything? Was it carefully selected to support his revelation? That weighs heavily to me on his culpability here. What has he divulged to any foreign governments? If it was anything other than the information regarding NSA's collection of data on American citizens _in the U.S._ then that might be a treasonable act. I have not personally seen any of the info that he has purportedly revealed to foreign govt's, but that is something to be considered.

I'm holding my decision about whether he is a patriot or traitor open, until all the evidence is in. If nothing else, his actions have sparked a lively debate, one that is much needed in today's technological climate. As I stated in an earlier post, I was pretty impressed with our capabilities in the 80's, I'm sure that it's mind blowing today. Relenquishing our freedoms for the supposed safety promised doesn't seem like a good deal to me.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Lots of great points from a lot of very smart and Patriotic minded Americans. For me, the question remains, "Are there enough of us to change the un Constitutional policies and practices of the US federal government"? 

I hope so and I'll bet that many on this forum do everything within their abilities to help make the necessary changes. I'll also bet that an equal number have given up the fight and are focused inwardly on self preservation. 

Who here is running for office...local, state, federal? I'd vote for a lot of you and many of you who love in "free" areas would get elected locally but wouldn't stand a chance against the evil complicit media in a larger scale election. 

So is Snowden a Patriot or Traitor? Do we have all of the facts? I'd bet that we don't. In the spirit of this thread, my answer is similar to Inor's. I'm glad that Snowden brought it to light but I don't like that he took it to a foreign country. So Neither


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Inor said:


> Furthermore, the idea that the NSA is "only collecting metadata" does not give me any comfort. Metadata could be used to target political opponents or anybody else this or a future administration finds bothersome. It opens the door for the same type of smear the Dems did on Robert Bork, but now they can do it to anybody not just high profile political and judicial adversaries.


 Could be used it has been used and is being used right now.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Slippy said:


> Lots of great points from a lot of very smart and Patriotic minded Americans. For me, the question remains, "Are there enough of us to change the un Constitutional policies and practices of the US federal government"?
> 
> I hope so and I'll bet that many on this forum do everything within their abilities to help make the necessary changes. I'll also bet that an equal number have given up the fight and are focused inwardly on self preservation.
> 
> ...


If Snowden hadn't left the country he would be dead now and we/you would never have heard a word of what he did and the info would be buried very deep.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

It would seem the only difference between patriot and traitor is the regime in charge.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

The fact that he is now trying to sell more secrets to other countries in exchange for asylum leads me to declare him a traitor. A patriot would have brought it out in the open and stood behind his actions.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

jimb1972 said:


> The fact that he is now trying to sell more secrets to other countries in exchange for asylum leads me to declare him a traitor. A patriot would have brought it out in the open and stood behind his actions.


What would you do, come back to America and either die or spend the rest of your life in some cell. How many politicians sell info. to others to make a buck. Our government gives/sells other countries weapons, chemical weapons every day and we think/say nothing about that. What all did billy clinton give/sell to russia and china as president!


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

We already know our government lies like there is nothing to it and now you want to believe what they are saying this time. Most politicians are only pissed because they aren't getting a cut of the money, not because info is trading hands. We act like our government doesn't make back room deals every day, but one guy is going to destroy the country for releasing info our government is hiding that probably most was gotten illegally to begin with.. So who is the bad guy here? Trust a government you know lies to you or a guy who tells you whats really happening. Your call....


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

non-disclosure agreement do not prohibit you from reporting violation of the Law.
The NSA has already admitted there were cases of workers spying on wife and girl friends calls and emails. No one can sit on that much power and not use it.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> non-disclosure agreement do not prohibit you from reporting violation of the Law.
> The NSA has already admitted there were cases of workers spying on wife and girl friends calls and emails. No one can sit on that much power and not use it.


Even with a $10,000 fine and six months in jail, there is always one idiot that has to try.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

ekim said:


> What would you do, come back to America and either die or spend the rest of your life in some cell. How many politicians sell info. to others to make a buck. Our government gives/sells other countries weapons, chemical weapons every day and we think/say nothing about that. What all did billy clinton give/sell to russia and china as president!


Instead of coming back and fighting for what he believes to be right he is offering to sell secrets to foreign nations, that makes him a piece of shit traitor. Just because someone is cheating on their taxes does not make it OK to screw their wife, wrong doing does not excuse other wrong doing. He would stand a decent chance in the courts here and have a massive amount of support, He chose instead to violate an oath and sell secrets in exchange for asylum and a life of leisure.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

He gave up a 200,000 federal reserve note a year job, a beautiful girlfriend and fun in the sun in Hawaii and now lives how? How much did he get for the secrets?

Our government is about lies, spies and secrets if it is about anything. Our government views all citizens as potential enemies and views individual liberty as irritating speed bumps. Our government is the entity that had embarrassing little secrets and these things are what it wants kept in the dark. As has been pointed out, those things which should be guarded are sold to the enemy, and not sold by Snowden.

So, the government (those who are in control of it, regardless of administration) makes things they want nobody to know because it would be shameful to any decent government, makes secret those things they do not want the citizens of this country to know, spies on all people like no other nation before, and sells those technical secrets that may one day be used against the nation's countrymen. 

The question should not be about Snowden. The question should be about the government.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Denton said:


> He gave up a 200,000 federal reserve note a year job, a beautiful girlfriend and fun in the sun in Hawaii and now lives how? How much did he get for the secrets?
> 
> Our government is about lies, spies and secrets if it is about anything. Our government views all citizens as potential enemies and views individual liberty as irritating speed bumps. Our government is the entity that had embarrassing little secrets and these things are what it wants kept in the dark. As has been pointed out, those things which should be guarded are sold to the enemy, and not sold by Snowden.
> 
> ...


As far as the secrets of international espionage go, I have no problem with our governments actions. The US is only doing what every other nation wishes it could. All countries spy ours was just doing an exceptional job of it, if not for all the domestic bullshit going on I would be quite proud of our intelligence services. Selling off those secrets to enable other countries to do it to us is traitorous. The French and Chinese have been engaged in industrial espionage for years to help their nations compete economically. Like it or not life and economics is a team sport and just like any sport you look for any advantage against your competition, there is no zero sum game in the world's markets or national security.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

jimb1972 said:


> Instead of coming back and fighting for what he believes to be right he is offering to sell secrets to foreign nations, that makes him a piece of shit traitor. Just because someone is cheating on their taxes does not make it OK to screw their wife, wrong doing does not excuse other wrong doing. He would stand a decent chance in the courts here and have a massive amount of support, He chose instead to violate an oath and sell secrets in exchange for asylum and a life of leisure.


You would probably be OK with the government just sending up a drone and solve this little problem, correct. What we don't know can't hurt us right! So you are on a prepper forum because...... the government will take care of you?


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

jimb1972 said:


> As far as the secrets of international espionage go, I have no problem with our governments actions. The US is only doing what every other nation wishes it could. All countries spy ours was just doing an exceptional job of it, if not for all the domestic bullshit going on I would be quite proud of our intelligence services. Selling off those secrets to enable other countries to do it to us is traitorous. The French and Chinese have been engaged in industrial espionage for years to help their nations compete economically. *Like it or not life and economics is a team sport and just like any sport you look for any advantage against your competition, there is no zero sum game in the world's markets or national security.*


So Snowden play the game and won this round and you are mad because...... the team/government you trust lied and got caught again so blame the other guy, OK.

Time to get out of this post, it's going to get personal and probably ugly, enjoy


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

sparkyprep said:


> Just saw an article that reports that the NSA is intercepting laptops bought online before they reach their owners and installing malware/ spyware, and then sending them on to their owners, all in secret.


I read this somewhere.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Just Sayin' said:


> Really, these are the same folks that brought us the Obamacare website? The NSA doesn't have the manpower unless they subcontract it out...


The NSA didn't build the Obamascare web site. Not sure how these two things correlate?


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Denton said:


> The question should not be about Snowden. The question should be about the government.


Classic misdirection. Our government spends a lot of time watching Penn & Teller, because there is a wealth to be learned from those two.

While we waste our time debating the merits of Snowdens actions, we fail to discuss the information he divulged. That way five years from now it's easier to remember that this fiasco had nothing to do with illegal activity on the part of those we entrusted with our privacy, and was instead nothing more than just another nutjob getting all nutjobby.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

"another nutjob getting all nutjobby" - I like that and will reuse it with permission!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

jimb1972 said:


> As far as the secrets of international espionage go, I have no problem with our governments actions. The US is only doing what every other nation wishes it could. All countries spy ours was just doing an exceptional job of it, if not for all the domestic bullshit going on I would be quite proud of our intelligence services. Selling off those secrets to enable other countries to do it to us is traitorous. The French and Chinese have been engaged in industrial espionage for years to help their nations compete economically. Like it or not life and economics is a team sport and just like any sport you look for any advantage against your competition, there is no zero sum game in the world's markets or national security.


Your assertion has nothing to do with what I said, so I must assume you are A-OK with the destruction of all that is good as long as the government is used for corporate espionage, just like the Chinese and the French.

Corporate...how does that play into the securing of individual liberty? It doesn't. Your statement did more to illustrate all that is wrong with what is going on.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

ekim said:


> Time to get out of this post, it's going to get personal and probably ugly, enjoy


I'm following your wise example.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Denton said:


> Your assertion has nothing to do with what I said, so I must assume you are A-OK with the destruction of all that is good as long as the government is used for corporate espionage, just like the Chinese and the French.
> 
> Corporate...how does that play into the securing of individual liberty? It doesn't. Your statement did more to illustrate all that is wrong with what is going on.


My problem with Snowden has nothing to do with the information he released regarding the NSA's illegal gathering of information on US citizens, it was probably the right thing to do. My problem is with the information he is releasing to other governments in exchange for shelter. He probably could have survived the court battle in the US had he only released the information about the intelligence gathered about US citizens and the "metadata" He chose to run and sell out to China and Russia so now he is a traitor. How does spying on other nations affect individual liberty? How does spying on foreign powers destroy all that is good? Your statement has almost nothing to do with what I said. Choose a POS for a hero if you wish, I do not.


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## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Both , he could have found another way to do what he did. It is already clear they went far beyond collecting numbers .


I agree 100%


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Patriot Ex. This is the way our government treats those who do the greater good with out the security of popular demand. This society is corrupt. Those who are persueing him for prosecution should be prosecuted.


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## Mike45 (Dec 29, 2013)

1skrewsloose said:


> So you say the ends justify the means? If a soldier is given an immoral command he must follow it? I'm at a loss here, not sure what to believe, but for sure would have no doubts backing the constituition over some executive order!


Im saying that if I would rather them catch the shitbags that live among us. I could definitely handle some gov't agency reading my email than someone I love getting killed by a terrorist that could have been caught, but wasn't because of those laws. There is no easy way to do it, when the enemy mingles in with you, sometimes you have to get creative to catch them.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

jimb1972 said:


> My problem with Snowden has nothing to do with the information he released regarding the NSA's illegal gathering of information on US citizens, it was probably the right thing to do. My problem is with the information he is releasing to other governments in exchange for shelter. He probably could have survived the court battle in the US had he only released the information about the intelligence gathered about US citizens and the "metadata" He chose to run and sell out to China and Russia so now he is a traitor. How does spying on other nations affect individual liberty? How does spying on foreign powers destroy all that is good? Your statement has almost nothing to do with what I said. Choose a POS for a hero if you wish, I do not.


Specifically, what information are you accusing Snowden of providing that put our troops in danger?


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Mike45 said:


> Im saying that if I would rather them catch the shitbags that live among us. I could definitely handle some gov't agency reading my email than someone I love getting killed by a terrorist that could have been caught, but wasn't because of those laws. There is no easy way to do it, when the enemy mingles in with you, sometimes you have to get creative to catch them.


So, you would weaken *unalienable* Rights to catch an enemy? Where would it end? If there is no automatic presumption of innocence and no need for a warrant, then searching your home, at some point in the future, could very well be the precedent you're helping to set. Government is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. He who would trade essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserves neither Liberty nor Safety... or so said Benjamin Franklin.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

The Resister said:


> Specifically, what information are you accusing Snowden of providing that put our troops in danger?


Don't believe I mentioned any troops, or illegal immigrants for that matter since this will probably be headed that way now.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Inor said:


> "another nutjob getting all nutjobby" - I like that and will reuse it with permission!


You don't need my permission, everything I say exists in the public domain. 



Mike45 said:


> Im saying that if I would rather them catch the shitbags that live among us. I could definitely handle some gov't agency reading my email than someone I love getting killed by a terrorist that could have been caught, but wasn't because of those laws. There is no easy way to do it, when the enemy mingles in with you, sometimes you have to get creative to catch them.


You and my homie Ben would not get along. Please don't vote.

"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"


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## Mike45 (Dec 29, 2013)

The Resister said:


> So, you would weaken *unalienable* Rights to catch an enemy? Where would it end? If there is no automatic presumption of innocence and no need for a warrant, then searching your home, at some point in the future, could very well be the precedent you're helping to set. Government is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. He who would trade essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserves neither Liberty nor Safety... or so said Benjamin Franklin.


I don't know where it would end, no one does really. But I will tell you that nothing you do is out of the reach of the gov't, every credit card transaction, etc, etc, etc. How hard is it for them to issue themselves a warrant, therefor making it "legal". I have a unique perspective on this, I worked at the NSA for a while. People want to be safe, and scream when something bad happens that could have been prevented. But then when preventive measures are taken to weed out the bad guys, people scream about the methods used. The vagueness of what is unreasonable is how they get around it, what is unreasonable to you is quite different to what is unreasonable to someone else. Do not get me wrong, I am not advocating unrestricted access to everyones personal conversations-but I also do not want Jihad Al Qaeda living next to me planning some crap either. 
The biggest problem we have is that our rights are slowly being eroded every single day, and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Why? Because we continue to elect the same jackasses every election. We scream and holler about how bad they are, and every election we believe what they say and clap and vote for them. The rest of us do not vote because we do not think it will do any good.

Which leads me to a question. If Uncle Sugar decides to collect all of our IP addresses off of this site or server, is there an emergency destruction plan for the servers in case that happens?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

ESA said:


> I believe that Snowden could have been at patriot at first but now I wonder&#8230;
> 
> We can all agree that our government is working towards removing most if not all of our bill of rights. So the NSA is* illegally collecting information* that goes against our 4th amendment. Although if Snowden was a true patriot he would not go to Russia, where everything he stands against is the way of life in Russia.
> 
> ...


They are not illegally collecting information - the law makers have given them permission so it is* LEGAL *but it is *UNLAWFUL*. That means that congress didn't have the authority to give them that power. Congress can't remove your rights. Congress can't grant that power to anyone else either. It may be legal but it is still *UNLAWFUL*.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

PaulS, I would vote for you.


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## Southern Dad (Nov 26, 2012)

For me this one is simple, TRAITOR. We have ways that these things are supposed to be handled. Going to China and Russia to share them with the world isn't in that plan. Overall, because of his actions we are less safe today. While I disagree with the collection of data on Americans, any positive parts of the program are now ruined because it has been exposed. In his shoes, I believe I would have sought out an audience with several Republican Senators and Representatives. Using this procedure, Eric Snowden would have had whistle blower protections and would not be facing criminal charges if he ever returns. The United States would have been able to reveal what needed to be revealed while keeping what didn't under wraps.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

ESA said:


> I believe that Snowden could have been at patriot at first but now I wonder&#8230;
> 
> We can all agree that our government is working towards removing most if not all of our bill of rights. So the NSA is illegally collecting information that goes against our 4th amendment. Although if Snowden was a true patriot he would not go to Russia, where everything he stands against is the way of life in Russia.
> 
> ...


Eric Snowden DID NOT defect to Russia. Snowden was in Russia, in the airport, waiting to board a plane to yet another country. The U.S. suspended Snowden's passport so he got stuck there. He did not go there to seek asylum; he did not sell any secrets to them. It appears to me that those branding Snowden a traitor do not have the facts.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

There is no evidence that Snowden has or shared anything other than the monitoring of phone calls. You have to remember who the media works for. You should also consider what the NSA is capable of constructing to mislead and defer blame from themselves. We don't even know that he has information other than how the conversations are intercepted and I can tell you that. I don't have the proof but if I wanted to intercept all incoming and outgoing calls I would simply put a trap on the trunk translators at the several locations they exist in the USA. You not only get all digital and voice conversation that go overseas you get all (foreign and domestic) the conversations and digital data - from faxes to web traffic and E-mails. No fuss no muss! oh, and no taps necessary.


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Mike45 said:


> I don't know where it would end, no one does really. But I will tell you that nothing you do is out of the reach of the gov't, every credit card transaction, etc, etc, etc. How hard is it for them to issue themselves a warrant, therefor making it "legal". I have a unique perspective on this, I worked at the NSA for a while. People want to be safe, and scream when something bad happens that could have been prevented. But then when preventive measures are taken to weed out the bad guys, people scream about the methods used. The vagueness of what is unreasonable is how they get around it, what is unreasonable to you is quite different to what is unreasonable to someone else. Do not get me wrong, I am not advocating unrestricted access to everyones personal conversations-but I also do not want Jihad Al Qaeda living next to me planning some crap either.
> The biggest problem we have is that our rights are slowly being eroded every single day, and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Why? Because we continue to elect the same jackasses every election. We scream and holler about how bad they are, and every election we believe what they say and clap and vote for them. The rest of us do not vote because we do not think it will do any good.
> 
> Which leads me to a question. If Uncle Sugar decides to collect all of our IP addresses off of this site or server, is there an emergency destruction plan for the servers in case that happens?


NOTHING crosses the Internet that Uncle Scam does not intercept. It is wrong. It's not so much the politicians fault as it the fault of the people. Look at this board and the posts. You see people operating without the facts and advocating weakening their own Rights in the name of safety.

"_There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death_." Proverbs 14 : 12

During World War II, the U.S. rounded up the Japanese living here. Now we accept the premise that was a mistake so we allow the Islamists to move about freely while they are at war with us and their religion teaches us that if they cannot convert us, they are to kill us. "_Social Conservatives_" demand that everyone who washes up on our shores come here through some nonexistent "_legal_" path, which is little more than saying you can only come here if you want to be a citizen.

With citizenship comes the privilege of voting. America has no cultural heritage left because we want everyone that passes through to apply for citizenship. We won't deport the Islamists and prevent their entry into the U.S.; we won't run them out nor deny to them privileges. No way. That would be "_racist_" (I'm being sarcastic, BTW.)

If you left me in charge for a week, I'd have Mecca bombed and nothing left standing. Then I'd issue a warning to the Muslim world - one more terrorist attack and every Muslim leader we can identify will be hunted down and executed. Just as bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended WWII, the B.S. would end.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Deebo said:


> PaulS, I would vote for you.


Deebo, thanks and I would probably have to accept if I was nominated but they (alphabet soup) would have me dead inside a week. Besides I am too old to be president.


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## pharmer14 (Oct 27, 2012)

It's all going to depend on who winds up writing the history books and how the next few decades shape up politically. 

History is littered with examples of people who were written into roles that were wrong and we still buy them hook, line, and sinker. 

Edison for example... He had an elephant electrocuted and used it as propaganda to bring down proponents of direct current.

Tokyo Rose... The US Government sold that poor lady down the river... 

If the same people in power get to write the history books, Snowden is already condemned.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

The Resister said:


> NOTHING crosses the Internet that Uncle Scam does not intercept. It is wrong. It's not so much the politicians fault as it the fault of the people. Look at this board and the posts. You see people operating without the facts and advocating weakening their own Rights in the name of safety.
> 
> "_There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death_." Proverbs 14 : 12
> 
> ...


Resister?

Or are you an NSA plant?


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Mike45 said:


> Im saying that if I would rather them catch the shitbags that live among us. I could definitely handle some gov't agency reading my email than someone I love getting killed by a terrorist that could have been caught, but wasn't because of those laws. There is no easy way to do it, when the enemy mingles in with you, sometimes you have to get creative to catch them.


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

I tend to agree with him.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

inceptor said:


> "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
> 
> I tend to agree with him.


Look what happened in nazi Germany. Every time they took away peoples rights and abused their citizens the excuse was some outside threat. It's always done to "make you safer".


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## The Resister (Jul 24, 2013)

Inor said:


> Resister?
> 
> Or are you an NSA plant?


Plants don't work against the hand that feeds them. If you notice I have one theme: NEVER support anything that increases the size, power and / or scope of government. Even if you think you will benefit off the increase in government, you have to reject it. In the final analysis the more you support big government, the smaller your wallet will get and the fewer Liberties you will enjoy.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

The Resister said:


> Plants don't work against the hand that feeds them. If you notice I have one theme: NEVER support anything that increases the size, power and / or scope of government. Even if you think you will benefit off the increase in government, you have to reject it. In the final analysis the more you support big government, the smaller your wallet will get and the fewer Liberties you will enjoy.


Wow!
I like this Resister. Keep the other one locked safely in the basement.


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## ibewbull (Sep 1, 2012)

Some may not realize information was collected way back past the electronic ages.
The hi-tech just makes it easier. More wide spread than ever imagined . Well maybe imagined sine Orwell did think a bit on it.
Freedom lost for allusions of safety or security never worked nor will it do anything but bring on tyranny.
Shine the light on evil and let it be uncovered.
We can not become Stalin's or Hitler's 4th Reich. The "Progressives" AKA Socialist AKA Stalinist / Marxist / Lennist incognito. Should not be welcomed on our shores. Be a watchman.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

The Resister said:


> *Plants don't work against the hand that feeds them.* If you notice I have one theme: NEVER support anything that increases the size, power and / or scope of government. Even if you think you will benefit off the increase in government, you have to reject it. In the final analysis the more you support big government, the smaller your wallet will get and the fewer Liberties you will enjoy.


The whole idea of a plant is to blend in and seem as if they "work against the hand that feeds them". Their job is to report on whatever is going on. They have also been known to incite trouble so the hand that does the feeding can justify their existence and take action against these people.


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