# Salvaging VS Looting



## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Scenario video...Looting vs Salvaging...We go into the city for needed parts.






When do you cross the line?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

If you take something that is not yours, it is stealing.
No matter how someone tries to rationalize it.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Nothing like sending in a Fire team for supplies.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I did not even watch the video.


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## Grim Reality (Mar 19, 2014)

Isn't the key to the distinction between the terms "salvaging" & "looting" the presence of the owner's of said 
materials? If a building or property is abandoned...it doesn't seem very wrong to obtain items needed. But 
if there IS someone there, it is already "spoken for".

Implicit here is the chivalry of honoring the "spoken for" proviso. That begs the morality of those who are 
doing the "salvaging". I would premise that when the SHTF it will every man for himself! Certainly that 
will be true among those who have taken insufficient preparations. There is little honor in desperation. 

Sad to say.

Grim


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

If you take something that is the property of someone(s) else, then it's stealing. If you take something that has been abandoned by it's rightful owner(s) with no intention of returning, then it salvaging IMO. Being able to tell the difference, well, that's another story.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Grim Reality said:


> Isn't the key to the distinction between the terms "salvaging" & "looting" the presence of the owner's of said materials?
> If a building or property is abandoned...it doesn't seem very wrong to obtain items needed. But if there IS someone
> there, it is already "spoken for".
> 
> ...


So, if you, Grim Reality, go on vacation for a week it is entirely OK if someone breaks into your house and steals your property while you are gone?


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## Grim Reality (Mar 19, 2014)

Why are we always getting into these inane extrapolations? By your example, if I came over to your house and 
you left the living room I could take whatever I found there! And because you aren't using it I could also take
your car...you weren't using it right?!

I believe that you are simply dissecting an idea until it no longer bears resemblance to the original postulate.

If you are living there...it belongs to YOU! Naturally, you would want me to be the one that stumbles onto
your domicile. I would probably leave you in peace. I'm wondering what you would do if you stumbled onto
MY domicile?! Your politics preceed.

Survival will not be a pretty picture.

Grim


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

edited non essential content


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

We live in Florida, which gets hurricanes.
Evacuations are routinely ordered. When we lived in South Florida we never left, even for a Cat 2.
We're older now, we have animals that depend on us. If a storm ever bears down on our area, we're loading up the horses and dogs and bugging out (the chickens will be on their own).
IF someone came when we were gone and looted things I worked hard all my life for, I would NOT be amused. Or sympathetic. If I caught them in the act I give them one chance to surrender and face a judge. Just one chance.

A SHTF scenario doesn't always involve the end of the world. Unless you are stealing my stuff.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Perhaps a view that salvaging takes place after looting is a memory? There is a difference and I believe knowing the circumstances and a good moral compass are necessary to define what is occurring.y


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

The video is blocked from here, but the distinction is pretty clear.

"Salvaging" implies making use of materials others have discarded.
If someone made an effort to relieve themselves of ownership of something, that item can be "salvaged" by anyone who finds it.

"Looting" is taking items that still have an owner, also know as "stealing".

Leaving one's home, with intent to return, is clearly not abandoning one's home.
It would not be easy to make the case that a home is abandoned unless the owner made it clear they were not returning.
Just because it's been empty for 2 months, doesn't mean they gave up ownership and moved on.

That said, in the aftermath of SHTF, my family will be fed one way or another.


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## Grim Reality (Mar 19, 2014)

My sense of survival revolves around a complete breakdown of society. Like a permanent grid-down situation.
Lesser calamities I can, and WILL, deal with. 

I will give this man credit! "MoonshineDave" put it well...

"If you take something that is the property of someone(s) else, then it's stealing. If you take something 
that has been abandoned by it's rightful owner(s) with no intention of returning, then it's salvaging IMO. 
Being able to tell the difference, well, that's another story."

He has succinctly summed it up. I don't believe in zombies, but the dire situations of the characters in TWD,
frame the difficulties of maintaining supplies. If for some reason I need a car battery I will be opening the
hood of every car I can find to locate a suitable replacement. But that act might get me shot...even though
I bear no ill will against other survivalists/survivors!

Ah, there's the rub! But there will be a change in mindset among those of us who "make it". They will
know that everyone is in similar dire straits.

Grim


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Salvage is usually undertaken by those licensed to salvage, often fees permits and permissions are required. Perhaps you meant scavenging, which is probably a more appropriate term given the topic.

What you are asking is, what should one call taking somebody else's property, is it salvaging or looting? The outcome is the same, but if you call it salvaging you can BS yourself into believing it's okay and rationalize that your actions were necessary and acceptable. Sound about right?


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

the guy died... The property now belongs to his wife or kids or siblings...

so they just got in a fire fight with the wife and kids of the dead


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> That said, in the aftermath of SHTF, my family will be fed *one way or another.*


That statement always makes my spider sense tingle


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> That statement always makes my spider sense tingle


We've had this discussion before. I hold no moral high ground on the matter.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Crossing a thin line can and will likely get you shot. If you need a gun to take it, it is stealing. If everyone is already dead and the place is a mess it maybe salvaging.
But again a thin line that you need to think long and hard about.
The video end is not bad.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> We've had this discussion before. I hold no moral high ground on the matter.


I think I deserve at least an attaboy for not saddling up my high white horse and going on a long slow ride to Moral city


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

If some people are gone, and some people are dead, with the place a mess, the dead may be their version of a "Slippy Pike"


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

I like southernprepper1 scenario videos. They make you think and produces a good conversation.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I did not even watch the video.


You missed out on a good thought provoker.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

A couple of points:

1: They anticipated having to "unlock" the place, . . . therefore it is predicted to be secured property of another, . . . it is not salvage, it is not abandoned, . . . going in where it is not known for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that the place is abandoned, is at the very least trespassing, . . . and goes upward in seriousness from there.

2: The instant they opened the door, . . . seeing the lights on, . . . should have been the indication to leave. Someone is in there, . . . someone was in there, . . . someone may still be in there, . . . in any case, . . . it should have been the Exit sign for them. To ignore it is no less than the criminal mind.

My interpretation of the whole video, . . . two thugs on a theft mission.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Kauboy said:


> That said, in the aftermath of SHTF, my family will be fed one way or another.


A lot of the board members seem to be sticking with their moral beliefs and will not loot or even salvage/scrounge for supplies. Personally I think that my god will provide for me one way or another and I will not have to do either. But I firmly believe that depending on the SHTF event and its longevity morals will be lowered and if it develops into TEOTWAWKI and your food supplies dwindle morals will be put on a back burner. Right now it is easy to say I will not loot but in the future and you are looking into the eyes of your starving child you will do what you have to do to provide for your family. Even if it means to rob and possibly kill.

Traditionally American come together in times of hardship and war. I would like to think that we as Americans would band together as a community and come thru what ever hardship we are burdened with.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

The Eternal won't be blessing the theives


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Another reason we prepare. We will not be out try to justify taking from others. We will be ok.


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## Billy Roper (Oct 5, 2015)

Yeah, they were thieves. Salvaging requires abandonment. I might fight for resources if necessary when SHTF, but I hope that I wouldn't try to justify it as salvaging or pretend that it was anything other than what it was.


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

Don't need to watch a video about looting,saw it firsthand after Katrina! Major shtf I'm calling all bets are off. Katrina was local imagine this nation wide.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

MaterielGeneral said:


> A lot of the board members seem to be sticking with their moral beliefs and will not loot or even salvage/scrounge for supplies. Personally I think that my god will provide for me one way or another and I will not have to do either.


Now is the time to decide. When I went to Marine Corps Boot camp - I decided before I left that I was going to finish



MaterielGeneral said:


> But I firmly believe that depending on the SHTF event and its longevity morals will be lowered and if it develops into TEOTWAWKI and your food supplies dwindle morals will be put on a back burner.


By the time my supplies are running out the pickings would be pretty slim



MaterielGeneral said:


> Right now it is easy to say I will not loot but in the future and you are looking into the eyes of your starving child you will do what you have to do to provide for your family. Even if it means to rob and possibly kill.


if your mind set is that eternity is a long time and that Jesus is Lord...it will not matter who is starving.. you are not going to turn your back on HIM in order to please yourself, your wife, or your child.

Man does not live on bread alone..that was a very simple lesson taught by the King.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

We're all familiar with the moral and religious argument. We don't need to rehash old discussions.

Some are content with watching their loved ones waste away, and others are not. Let's leave it at that.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Same thread, different date, same outcome. 
Most people can't be trusted. 
Even this little forum has people ready go looting. 
I knew the posters that would be for, and justifying why when to "scavenge".


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I offer no justification.
What needs to be done will be done.
That is all.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> *Some are content with watching their loved ones waste away*, and others are not. Let's leave it at that.


You realize that it is those smirky little comments (like above) from people that are willing to murder other peoples little children in cold blood in order to steal enough food to make sure their own offspring can eat for one more day that usually start the ball rolling...???

I am content to make sure I have enough for my family...and enough includes the means to protect myself and them from people that would toss my children out of a life raft in order to save themselves... think about it


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> You realize that it is those smirky little comments (like above) from people that are willing to murder other peoples little children in cold blood in order to steal enough food to make sure their own offspring can eat for one more day that usually start the ball rolling...???
> 
> I am content to make sure I have enough for my family...and enough includes the means to protect myself and them from people that would toss my children out of a life raft in order to save themselves... think about it


It wasn't smirky, and nothing has been said about murder. You're sensationalizing the topic again. Don't do that.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> I offer no justification.
> What needs to be done will be done.
> That is all.


The good thing is - - this just motivated me to prepare more.. because I know there are people like you..


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> It wasn't smirky, and nothing has been said about murder. You're sensationalizing the topic again. Don't do that.


it is easy to infer bad things from what you implied

As for me... all I can say... I have lived my life (at least the later part) to be pleasing to the master... *I just want to finish well.*...


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> I offer no justification.
> What needs to be done will be done.
> That is all.


I agree, I also agree with Texas on that trespassers will be shot.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Without hard facts on a specific scenario with players identified, location, condition of alleged target, owner logistics, or depth of the crisis, the fact remains that it is a blurred line as a general topic. I can add nothing here, either pro or con that is relevant or justifies any hard line stance to validate an all situation stance. I will only state that I typically will lean to minding my own business and not another's or their stores based on an assumption of their intent. Such assumptions can get your hind end filled with lead.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Hunger, fear, and disease make poor companions to good judgement, honor and fair play. The lines will be blurred and things will be done that many never would have imagined. People will see in themselves the worst and the best that men can do. I am going with Watchman on this one. You can't say definitively what you will do in any scenario until confronted with it, except with the possibility of those among us who have been to war. I think men of good moral character and high values will do what is right in most instances, even though it may perhaps cross the line in times of peace and tranquility.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Prepared One said:


> Hunger, fear, and disease make poor companions to good judgement, honor and fair play. The lines will be blurred and things will be done that many never would have imagined. People will see in themselves the worst and the best that men can do. I am going with Watchman on this one. You can't say definitively what you will do in any scenario until confronted with it, except with the possibility of those among us who have been to war. I think men of good moral character and high values will do what is right in most instances, even though it may perhaps cross the line in times of peace and tranquility.


 Some of us have seen this played out. If you put your faith in man kind your are going to lose that one. People of Good Moral character are getting harder to find each day.
Finding someone that even knows that word is getting hard.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> You can't say definitively what you will do in any scenario until confronted with it


Actually--- you can-IF you have thought it out... 
If a beautiful women propositioned me - I am married and would say no
If I found a bunch of money, I would turn it in
If I saw somebody in need I would help



Prepared One said:


> I think men of good moral character and high values will do what is right in most instances, even though it may perhaps cross the line in times of peace and tranquility.


As soon as they start doing those THINGS - they are no longer people of good moral character

There are people that do what is "Right" because they are scared of jail... there are others that do what is "right" because it is what is right based on a higher law

The ones that are doing what is right based on fear of jail...will of course act different.

Unless a person is an absolute surrendered follower of Jesus Christ, it is hard to explain why it is better to die then to steal and murder in order to live a little longer.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Seriously, stop. We are not taking this to the ditch again.
You can infer whatever you like, and be wrong about it. That's your choice. Build me up to be whatever you want to. If you need a boogeyman to motivate you, so be it.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)




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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

This topic comes up again  I thought we got over this already, bottom line is, the choice to"salvage" or "loot" is yours to make, just remember if I came to your "fort" to "salvage" what greeting will I receive, as I guarantee you the sane greeting if you cone and "salvage" from me... (that's also why I have a substantial interest in slippy made pikes)


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> If you take something that is not yours, it is stealing.
> No matter how someone tries to rationalize it.


In general I would agree, however...

Let's say that "The Fall" has happened, many/most of your neighbors have "bugged out", fled to the hills, frozen to death, etc. It's several months, a year, etc, into the event and you're running low on supplies, want more blankets, etc. You have been observant, and know which houses are empty.

Is it stealing to check those houses for supplies? They DO NOT belong to you, but aren't they also abandoned? Especially if the owners are dead? I guess that's where I draw the line. If I take something away from someone else, that's theft. But if I take something that isn't mine, but also seems to be abandoned, I don't consider that to be theft.


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> We live in Florida, which gets hurricanes.
> Evacuations are routinely ordered. When we lived in South Florida we never left, even for a Cat 2.
> We're older now, we have animals that depend on us. If a storm ever bears down on our area, we're loading up the horses and dogs and bugging out (the chickens will be on their own).
> IF someone came when we were gone and looted things I worked hard all my life for, I would NOT be amused. Or sympathetic. If I caught them in the act I give them one chance to surrender and face a judge. Just one chance.
> ...


Sure. If it is reasonable to assume that the rightful owners are returning, then it's the neighborly thing to do to n ot only NOT take it, but to try and defend it when possible. If there is no longer a reasonable expectation of the owner's return (they have died, it's really TEOTWAEKI, etc) and they have been gone a good chunk of time. isn't it reasonable, in that situation , to consider it abandoned? Obviously it's a case-by-case basis.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

You could always do like Lloyd and Harry from dumb and dumber. Leave an IOU!









It works for the FED, it can work for you too...


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> Actually--- you can-IF you have thought it out...
> If a beautiful women propositioned me - I am married and would say no
> If I found a bunch of money, I would turn it in
> If I saw somebody in need I would help
> ...


Main, I wont bandy words with you on the perceived moral high ground here. I will comment no further other then to stand by my previous post.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Some folks will die protecting their families 

others will die while trying to take things from people that have prepared

I will never be PRO marauder...I am putting away things so I do not have to take from others...

If during good times your mind set is that you will take from others during bad times.... barba tenus sapientes


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I was at fred.garvin's the other night and he passed out leaving a half drunk bottle of bourbon on the table so I "salvaged" it before passing out myself. Woke up at 5am with his wife's brother Buck yelling at me and accusing me of "looting" the bourbon. I referred him to this thread and he had his wife (fred's sister Spuds) read it to him. While they were figuring out some of the longer words I snuck out of trailer with the salvaged bourbon.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I was at fred.garvin's the other night and he passed out leaving a half drunk bottle of bourbon on the table so I "salvaged" it before passing out myself. Woke up at 5am with his wife's brother Buck yelling at me and accusing me of "looting" the bourbon. I referred him to this thread and he had his wife (fred's sister Spuds) read it to him. While they were figuring out some of the longer words I snuck out of trailer with the salvaged bourbon.

Finders Keepers,,,,Losers Weepers


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> Some folks will die protecting their families
> 
> others will die while trying to take things from people that have prepared
> 
> ...


Agreed. As I have said before, when the time comes and things settle down or get to a point I feel the risk is acceptable, I definitely plan on doing some scavenging. As stated before, I'll state again. What I plan on scavenging is the un used, abandoned, etc. I will not be a thief, and steal from those in need.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Thanks Fool.....I liked that, well done.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

FoolAmI said:


> I was at fred.garvin's the other night and he passed out leaving a half drunk bottle of bourbon on the table so I "salvaged" it before passing out myself. Woke up at 5am with his wife's brother Buck yelling at me and accusing me of "looting" the bourbon. I referred him to this thread and he had his wife (fred's sister Spuds) read it to him. While they were figuring out some of the longer words I snuck out of trailer with the salvaged bourbon.


I am glad I did not have a mouthful of bourbon when I read this....

A+++ for the post


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

The tone of this thread and the one that was started to avoid hijacking this one is a prime example of why we have lost so many good posters. No one said anything about murder, let alone about murdering children. What has happened to this forum?


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## beach23bum (Jan 27, 2015)

Auntie said:


> The tone of this thread and the one that was started to avoid hijacking this one is a prime example of why we have lost so many good posters. No one said anything about murder, let alone about murdering children. What has happened to this forum?


did you want someone to post about murdering people and taking what they had?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

beach23bum said:


> did you want someone to post about murdering people and taking what they had?


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I had a great reply typed up but my connection timed out. Guess it was too long winded. 

We will all be looking for something at some point if there was a collapse. If people dont band together, well, eventually finite supplies run out. Preparedness may get us through the event. But if there is no order after than the lawless and moralless will rule. 

Er.....wait .... this is already happening!!


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Historically people survived by banding together into a community (near a water source). I think the lone wolves will die out rather quickly and the prepared groups will be left alone, at least for a while anyways.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

pheniox17 said:


> This topic comes up again  I thought we got over this already,


It was until someone who likes to hear himself ramble started again.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

MaterielGeneral said:


> Historically people survived by banding together into a community (near a water source). I think the lone wolves will die out rather quickly and the prepared groups will be left alone, at least for a while anyways.


MG, historically you are correct. However, isn't it interesting that this is far from the prevalent "game plan" for most. Distrust of others and any group or governing body, along with a changing society that has been overtaken by the ignorant savages, is likely the main driver. A slippery slope indeed, that will plunge most right to the bottom.


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

A Watchman said:


> MG, historically you are correct. However, isn't it interesting that this is far from the prevalent "game plan" for most. Distrust of others and any group or governing body, along with a changing society that has been overtaken by the ignorant savages, is likely the main driver. A slippery slope indeed, that will plunge most right to the bottom.


Personally, I have a hybrid approach. The family and I plan on trying to stay as invisible as possible during the early days of TEOTWAWKI. Try to ride out the danger while personally being in as little danger as is possible given the circumstances. Once the initial hot time is over, it'll be time to look for other survivors, and reform a small community for mutual support.

At least that's the hope.


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## Billy Roper (Oct 5, 2015)

Keep your head down until amateur hour is over and the herd has been thinned a bit? That's one angle. As long as you don't wait too long and others consolidate the power which abhors a vacuum.


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

Billy Roper said:


> Keep your head down until amateur hour is over and the herd has been thinned a bit? That's one angle. As long as you don't wait too long and others consolidate the power which abhors a vacuum.


Yep. It's always a balancing act, isn't it? Just like knowing WHEN to close the doors and go dark, when to bug out if applicable, etc. If it's a sudden and total SHTF situation the choices could be rather obvious. But in a slow or semi-slow decline, things get...murkier.

Honestly, I think we'll lose a lot of preppers as well because they waited just a little bit too long if the situation develops too slowly. Or they start too soon, and use up needed supplies.

That's just one of so manyn things that sucks about not knowing EXACTLY what in going to happen and when.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

I’ve learned through the years that when you first meet someone and the first words that come out his or her mouth is they are a Christian, then you better watch you back. Second if someone says they will never do something then they are normally the first ones that will or already had.

I hope like most folks here I will take the high ground and do what is right. But until I live through the event I will just keep my mouth shut and prepare.


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## Grim Reality (Mar 19, 2014)

When the SHTF there are certain items of primary importance which cannot be ignored.
How many times do we need to say this or something similar?

1) A continuing supply of fresh water.
2) A continuing supply of food (crops unless you are Eull Gibbons)
3) A substantial supply of arms and men willing to use them for common defense.
4) Fostering of a system of life to support those who are yet to come.

I know of no way that a single person or family can supply the man-hours needed to make these 
projects work. A number of people, working together, CAN!

If the criminal element rears it's head and attempts to take what good people have worked for...they 
may succeed. but my hope is that they will be fewer in numbers for their efforts.

Water sources must be protected, but also shared. Food in adequate quantities will require the efforts
of a community to perpetuate. I would propose that if raiders of some variety were repelled from my
particular neighborhood, we would all be well served to hunt them down and exterminate them. By 
their actions they are attempting to condemn those they attack and rob to a lingering death. They
would deserve nothing less in return. 

Naturally an army would overwhelm the average survival enclave...but we are probably not going to
see that very often. Even at that most of us would be well advised to "take some of them with you!"

Working together, towards common goals is the only way to make it through. If we do not
provide for our families and children yet unborn...we are GONNERS! And to provide for our
children there MUST be a gene pool large enough to avoid the dangers of inbreeding. That
in and of itself if reason enough to have large GROUPS of people banding together. I can see
no way around that.

I am particularly doubtful of receiving Mana from Heaven...I have no plans to rely upon
that boon.

Grim

B. Franklin paraphrased: "We must all HANG TOGETHER or we shall all hang separately!"


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> Some folks will die protecting their families
> 
> others will die while trying to take things from people that have prepared
> 
> ...


So the wife convinces you to take the kids to Disneyland in Orlando. And against your better judgement you agree and you fly down there. While there your worst nightmares become reality. ATM's don't work, a solar flare kills all electronics, and you've got two silver dollars and a $20 gold piece in your pocket.

What will you do to get your family back to your redoubt

(Oh and just a hint, this is from a guy who in the 80's had to plan for getting hundreds out of harms way in a foreign country.)


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> So, if you, Grim Reality, go on vacation for a week it is entirely OK if someone breaks into your house and steals your property while you are gone?


I think that you are missing the point of the post. If it is obvious that the owners of said party have departed with no intention of returning, then taking what they have left behind for your survival is salvaging. If there is a good chance that they intend to return, then it is looting. Even then, that is only in a EOTW type scenario. In addition, if there has been a major and long term catastrophe, it is one thing because there is little chance that the legal owner will ever show up. On the other hand, if it is life as normal, no matter how long the property has been sitting, you have no right even go onto the property, let alone remove anything from it. You have to use some common sense.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> So, if you, Grim Reality, go on vacation for a week it is entirely OK if someone breaks into your house and steals your property while you are gone?


I think that you are missing the point of the post. If it is obvious that the owners of said property have departed with no intention of returning, then taking what they have left behind for your survival is salvaging. If there is a good chance that they intend to return, then it is looting. Even then, that is only in a EOTW type scenario. In addition, if there has been a major and long term catastrophe, it is one thing because there is little chance that the legal owner will ever show up. On the other hand, if it is life as normal, no matter how long the property has been sitting, you have no right even go onto the property, let alone remove anything from it. You have to use some common sense.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

I think after awhile people will start banning together to form communities, and then, hopefully, elections. Having large groups of people all working together for the good of the group, sounds like a great plan, but who is going to be in charge of all those able bodied men and women? Somebody has to be calling the shots, will you be willing to follow the orders of someone else?


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Tennessee said:


> I've learned through the years that when you first meet someone and the first words that come out his or her mouth is they are a Christian, then you better watch you back.


Well the good book is clear that we shall know them by their fruit... and we are told to be careful about those that claim to be followers but are wolfs...



Tennessee said:


> Second if someone says they will never do something then they are normally the first ones that will or already had.


Sounds like a wivestale to me..



Tennessee said:


> I hope like most folks here I will take the high ground and do what is right.


Why do you have to hope... if you know what is right why would you do what is wrong???



Tennessee said:


> But until I live through the event I will just keep my mouth shut and prepare.


 as is often said here training and being prepared help.. if you train right and think right you will do the right thing.

Shibboleth


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## XMULE (Nov 8, 2015)

Real Old Man said:


> So the wife convinces you to take the kids to Disneyland in Orlando. And against your better judgement you agree and you fly down there. While there your worst nightmares become reality. ATM's don't work, a solar flare kills all electronics, and you've got two silver dollars and a $20 gold piece in your pocket.
> 
> What will you do to get your family back to your redoubt
> 
> (Oh and just a hint, this is from a guy who in the 80's had to plan for getting hundreds out of harms way in a foreign country.)


I'm curious why no one has answered this question, cause it's a good one.

IMO, most people, even those who are dead set against stealing, would be able to justify grabbing a vehicle. I would go for a state vehicle, at least i wouldn't feel bad about it.

As far as getting hundreds of people out of harms way, I'm not sure how it applies. If it was a military op, or a Team attached to an agency, that's a whole different ball of wax than a guy and his Fam booking it out of Orlando. Most of us don't have a professional background in threat evaluation, route planning, secure movement in convoy, (or clandestine movements with the assistance of local assets) and an intelligence apparatus backing us up. However far away and late to the party they may be.

Or maybe I'm wrong, and it is a similar scenario? Old Man, (may I call you Old Man? Seems disrespectful!) what would you do, with your background and knowledge?

I mean, steal a car? A carjacking? Sans weapon to point at potential carjackee? I figure Im going to grab a tarp, and hang out in the swamp eating bark until the ATM's come back on line from the sounds of it. Sometimes, aren't you just screwed?

Just so you know, as far as what happened in the 80's, I admit I'm curious. Please tell me about it. No need for specifics, just the Who (you and who?) What (what was your position? What was happening that required this movement of people?) When (when in the 80's? Dates and times?) Where (what foreign country was this, exactly?) How (how was this accomplished? Car, train, bus, boat, foot movement, open and rushed or clandestine and gradual, what assets were available and what skillsets came into play) and of course, Why (why did you choose to move them in whatever manner, what guided your thought processes as to the best option, assuming there were options.)

No need to tell tales out of school... I just want to know all about it.


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## XMULE (Nov 8, 2015)

PM received and understood.

Still, it's a shame. If we are going to talk about "salvaging vs. looting" it would be great to have some actual experiences, rather than just the theoretical questioning hanging there.

I've only been stuck in one other country, broke. South Africa, when the bank shut down my account after a withdrawal from an area they considered suspicious, even though it was all set up with said bank weeks prior. I ended up having someone wealthy put me up in a hotel. She later tried to sleep with me while her husband was in the other room... Unfortunate. I couldn't do it, morally or professionally. Whatever. I managed to call the bank and get things straightened out, and was not forced to sleep rough on the north coast.

I was around the Kyoto earthquake, but that was Japan. No one even thought about looting. 

I have a very hard time imagining such a hard reset or end of civilization that I am out scavenging supplies, or running into people defending their homes from other poor bastards who are starving or freezing or whatever. In another thread (do I get cross-thread points for referencing my own thread?) I am looking exactly for situations that DID go that pear shaped. Hard to find. I mean, are the Syrian refugees "bugging out" to what they consider a viable BOL? Being Europe. Most of what I have looked at concerning the aftermath of disasters is folks coming together, helping out in small communities, and either their own government or a regional neighbor nation stepping in help out, maybe with some concerns for national security, or not so much out of altruism, but there none the less.

Maybe Somalia would be an example of a place that went bad, and still hasn't recovered, but if someone so desired they could literally walk somewhere better, hell, Djibouti wasn't all that bad.


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## XMULE (Nov 8, 2015)

Double post GF distraction


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