# shtf =suicidal depression, depravity, insanity, for most.



## triem

dont kid yourself that you "know' how people will react. People have NEVER in this world seen something as catastrophic as shtf will be. there's never been this many people, so utterly un connected with the Earth and reality, so well armed, so weak. nearly all the seed is hybrid, it won't reproduce. there's no horse drawn farm implements, and the horse are not trained, and if shtf, the dogs will be eaten, by the starving dog packs and the people.

Most people will sodomize their grandma with barbed wire before they will do a 20 year sentence in a Fed prison, which is nicer, in most ways, than US army camps in Iraq or Afghanistan. Just wait until those same people have to choose between killing you and watching their kids starve! You have no clue how feral/depraved people can get or how fast/easily they will get there, either.


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## paraquack

I wish I could disagree with you.


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## PaulS

Yes but the fourth week will be better.


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## Kauboy

That's why we stock the ammo cans, and learn the right way to empty them.


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## bigwheel

Somebody has been watching too much TV.


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## Slippy

The OP may be correct in regards to many people, but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


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## Ripon

Amen.

Amongst the unprepared I'm sure it will be rampant. Amognst the prepared not so much.



Slippy said:


> The OP may be correct in regards to many people, but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


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## PaulS

I would expect no less! I also expect you to live - not just survive through anything that comes you way. (though I walk through the the valley...)


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## Camel923

No one but a fool thinks survival in the most dire of circumstances will be easy. That is why we plan and prep
...for a better chance.


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## Spartacus The Patriot

I know what you're saying. I was just noticing the other day in traffic where a driver wanted to merge into the left lane and the person who got cut off became irate. I think then thought to myself, if they are becoming angry over just getting cut off in traffic, can you imagine what it will be like then?


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## Boss Dog

My idea of shtf: 

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Psalm 58: 
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

That's why I invest in the new precious metals, brass and lead.


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## Sasquatch

triem said:


> dont kid yourself that you "know' how people will react. People have NEVER in this world seen something as catastrophic as shtf will be. there's never been this many people, so utterly un connected with the Earth and reality, so well armed, so weak. nearly all the seed is hybrid, it won't reproduce. there's no horse drawn farm implements, and the horse are not trained, and if shtf, the dogs will be eaten, by the starving dog packs and the people.
> 
> Most people will sodomize their grandma with barbed wire before they will do a 20 year sentence in a Fed prison, which is nicer, in most ways, than US army camps in Iraq or Afghanistan. Just wait until those same people have to choose between killing you and watching their kids starve! *You have no clue how feral/depraved people can get or how fast/easily they will get there, either.*


You say we have no idea how things will be (and you may be correct) but I would like to know how you know how things will be? Do you have intimate knowledge, a crystal ball, time traveler perhaps?

So the horse won't know how to plow the fields, big deal. They'll figure it out just like humans will figure out how to live in the new world with no modern conveniences. I'm not saying it won't be bad and many people won't survive but the humans that do make it through the first few months will rebuild and will thrive. It's what *some* of us do!


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## Prepared One

I think we all are aware of how nasty people can be and will be in a SHTF event. As prepppers we are more then prepared to deal with this both sychologicaly and physically. We are not naive in our expectations nor are we complacent in how we prepare for such a scenario. We know the strong and prepared will have the best chance at survival and carrying on. The meak, in this moment, shall not inherit the earth.


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## Smitty901

Some of us have seen SHTF, lived it ,did or best to fix it and came home, then for some reason went back and did it again. There is evil in this world and there is good. You will find what you seek. Standing against evil is what brings out the good.
For every jerk that cuts someone off someone backs off an lets another in. The real answer is to ask yourself witch one do you want to be today. It is hard for some of us but working at being niece does pay off.
Nothing wrong with peace and love long as you have a .45 just incase.


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## Maine-Marine

triem said:


> dont kid yourself that you "know' how people will react.


HA HA HA ... you are one the wrong forum to think you are giving us NEW INFORMATION

The reason we talk about food, water, medical, shelter, SECURITY (ammo, guns and more ammo) is because the sheeple will start going crazy after the lighting strikes


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## Chipper

Those of us that grew up with out running water and a indoor toilet won't have any problem. It will just be getting rid of those who didn't that will take some time.


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## NotTooProudToHide

I have no doubt some of this is going to go on when//if it hits the fan, hell I know I'll fall into the depression category when air conditioning and pizza delivery go away  . In all seriousness we and by we I mean people who live in the western "modern" countries have a pretty comfortable easy lifestyle. That being said I don't think we're going back to caveman times but I could see us going back to the early turn of the 20th century. No, not everybody is going to have to garden or hunt however a lot more people are going to have to perform these tasks and work is going to be a lot more manual and a lot more backbreaking. Priority's are going to be getting food on the table rather than the latest air jordans or cellphone and quiet frankly I think most people are going to be up to the task. It might take a while to get up to speed but there is no doubt barring some kind of mega disaster that affects the environment we as a species will survive.

Again that being said I have no doubt there are going to be turds out there that will steal, kill, injure, rape, and do all those terrible things that they do. Things are going pretty good right now in society despite our complaints its pretty easy living and people still do these things. When it all goes down it will magnify the problem element we have in society and emergency services won't be able to respond to everything (again they have problems now) so people are going to have to learn to depend on themselves and their neighbors.

Just a few rambling thoughts on this topic before I hit the hay. God Bless!


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## Maine-Marine

Boss Dog said:


> My idea of shtf:
> 
> Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
> 
> Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
> 
> That's why I invest in the new precious metals, brass and lead.


I wish I had posted that!!!!!!!!!!


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## Maine-Marine

triem said:


> People have NEVER in this world seen something as catastrophic as shtf will be.


Since you have no idea what the event will be...you are guessing here.

Financial Collapse - happened in the US before
Pandemic - Happened in the US before
Civil War - Happened in the US before


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## Will2

I can't help but be amused. 1. I think this is more so doomsday prepping, and I think a lot of people don't fully understand the world probably, and you probably won't survive a sudden massive global catastrophic event. There are only really two rational events of this sort - nuclear destruction - which most everything will be dead in that event where you are AND 2.major space body crashes into earth - also unlikely until the Chinese colonize the moon.

I think people ought to foucs instead on major disaster - state or national but not so big nuclear reactors ALL meltdown (turns global fast) and the "slow and steady decay of collapse of the industrialized world -which will play outover 20 years if it is a crappy ending to history.

Unles you are really rich or part of a well funded prepping cult that has obtained a long term nuclear shelter you are likely dead or will shortly be dead in the event of the fantasy you are talking about.

The decay is realistic but most people in the continental US (probably upwards of 90%) will be dead within a week of the world changing ending event such as mutually assured destruction. It just is redundant as unless you are VERY VERY prepared you are dead, and you are living fallout and then there is no chaos it will be whatever it is left of allied government enlisting survivors into what survival plan exists. That is totally unknown.

Don't mean to douse water on the fantasy though but try to keep it real, it is this type of talk that comes back on me, with police branding all preppers nuts whofantasized about the end of the world and oppose all authority who dream of chaos and violence.

Keep it real, make your lives easier concentrate on the most likely survival issues first then work from there.

US Gov and other govs are massive they arn't disapearing if the power goes out, it will take more than that.

Bear in mind revelations even said it takes 1000 years to get down to 1000 people sealed.

I know Mad Max has been a pretty crazy series run. I can't blame you.

Guys don't waste your time with nonsense scenarios.
They are fantasy scenarios.

There will be no civil war in the US John Titor has already saw to that in his time travels. (joke)

There are external threats to the US you can't fight yourself when there are bigger fish to fry.

http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal...-john-titor-predictions-for-2015-2483394.html

If you are a nut you should also realize that the CERN time travellers have likely also managed to stop other major problems.

(Yes cause time travellers are real... oh I forgot someone mentioned the bible here, and if god can time travel I am geussing subgod could maybe in some way do a lesser version of that.)

And no state emergency regions have nothing to do with Titors saying there will be 5 presidents. There has been no US civil war - and the war on terror has been going on since 2001. Nothing special happened in 2005 that the pubic knows about.


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## Spice

I don't think *any* of us really know how people would react in a SHTF; and can't. We don't even know what the event itself will look like. I propose for consideration:

1) The size of the event is probably not the determining factor. If you, your family, and everyone you care about is affected, do people much farther off really change your feelings that much, beyond knowing that help's not coming? I suspect not for most people.
d
2) History has lots of example where things got irredeemably, catastrophically bad for particular groups of people. Some people turned to self-centered monsters; some gave up; some banded together to protect each other as best they could. I think it would be a mistake to try and fit 'people' into one box. Be wary about the former but Be the latter would be my goal.


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## PatriotFlamethrower

THE PREPPERS MOTTO:

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I am the most prepared S.O.B. in the valley."


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## Seneca

So it's going to be really really bad and all that stuff....:Yikes: 
You do realize you're explaining this to preppers:armata_PDT_40:


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## PaulS

Let's do keep this real:
Hiroshima had a population of over 300000 people and only one (1) steel reinforced concrete building with the rest being wood, paper, or brick and mortar. Less than half the population died from that 15 Kt bomb. Those people were not in shelters they were going about their daily tasks without any concern for a nuclear attack. Still over 50% of the population lived.

What on earth makes you think that a modern nuclear exchange is going to kill "most" of the population? Having one sky-scraper between you and the blast leaves you untouched by the immediate radiation, the heat blast and the compression and decompressive blasts. All you have to do is avoid fallout - or shower often and there is no problem. People who live 50 miles from any air burst have hours to get prepared to handle any fallout if they live down wind. If it rains before the fallout gets to them then they are completely in the clear. Stay away from cans that have been exposed to radiation and you are fine! Any skinned fruit can be washed, pealed and eaten even if it was exposed to fallout.

Do some research on the survivability of a nuclear attack! It is relatively easy if you don't live next door to a target. Even then a basement or backyard shelter can leave you alive and well!


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## Prepared One

Indeed, a nuclear exchange is survivable unless you are near a high value target or in large city. Most people don't realize that the fire bombings in Tokyo, Dresden, and other WWII cities killed more people in one night then the nuclear bombs dropped on Heroshima and Nagasaki. I would be more worried about what follows an exchange with regards to what the government will do and is there a follow up invasion, civil war, etc. Still, if it comes to a nuclear exchange it will be a bad day for lot of people.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Maine-Marine said:


> HA HA HA ... you are one the wrong forum to think you are giving us NEW INFORMATION
> 
> The reason we talk about food, water, medical, shelter, SECURITY (ammo, guns and more ammo) is because the sheeple will start going crazy after the lighting strikes


Not only will they go crazy, it will happen FAST. We really are three-meals away from a riot.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Prepared One said:


> Indeed, a nuclear exchange is survivable unless you are near a high value target or in large city. Most people don't realize that the fire bombings in Tokyo, Dresden, and other WWII cities killed more people in one night then the nuclear bombs dropped on Heroshima and Nagasaki. I would be more worried about what follows an exchange with regards to what the government will do and is there a follow up invasion, civil war, etc. Still, if it comes to a nuclear exchange it will be a bad day for lot of people.


Invasion? That's not going to happen at least. There are exactly two places we can be invaded from, Canada and Mexico (forget about trying to push an invasion fleet over the oceans by air or by ship, that's not going to happen... heck, the US and UK barely managed to pull one off across the 30 miles of the English channel).

I think we would probably noticed a million troops on our borders ready to kick off a war.


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## Prepared One

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Invasion? That's not going to happen at least. There are exactly two places we can be invaded from, Canada and Mexico (forget about trying to push an invasion fleet over the oceans by air or by ship, that's not going to happen... heck, the US and UK barely managed to pull one off across the 30 miles of the English channel).
> 
> I think we would probably noticed a million troops on our borders ready to kick off a war.


I agree Salty. Invasion is unlikely. We were lucky on D-Day. As heroic as our forces were that fateful day had Hitler listened to his generals, Rommel in particular, they would have pushed us back into the sea. Still, Mexico was actually being courted by Germany in WWI to attack us before we got involved in Europe. Anything is possible I suppose. Those millions of troops are already here by some accounts. LOL


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## PatriotFlamethrower

PaulS said:


> Let's do keep this real:
> Hiroshima had a population of over 300000 people and only one (1) steel reinforced concrete building with the rest being wood, paper, or brick and mortar. Less than half the population died from that 15 Kt bomb. Those people were not in shelters they were going about their daily tasks without any concern for a nuclear attack. Still over 50% of the population lived.
> 
> What on earth makes you think that a modern nuclear exchange is going to kill "most" of the population? Having one sky-scraper between you and the blast leaves you untouched by the immediate radiation, the heat blast and the compression and decompressive blasts. All you have to do is avoid fallout - or shower often and there is no problem. People who live 50 miles from any air burst have hours to get prepared to handle any fallout if they live down wind. If it rains before the fallout gets to them then they are completely in the clear. Stay away from cans that have been exposed to radiation and you are fine! Any skinned fruit can be washed, pealed and eaten even if it was exposed to fallout.
> 
> Do some research on the survivability of a nuclear attack! It is relatively easy if you don't live next door to a target. Even then a basement or backyard shelter can leave you alive and well!


First of all, you are talking about the Hiroshima A-bomb, which was 13-18 kilotons. Today's nuclear bombs yield 25,000 kilotons or more. You do the math.

If a modern nuclear bomb and it's massive wave of energy didn't flatten everything in sight, then the massive amounts of gamma radiation released would travel for many, many miles, exposing every living thing to massive, lethal doses of radiation.

Alpha or Beta radiation won't penetrate buildings or fruit or skin, but gamma radiation penetrates EVERYTHING, unless lead shielding or lots of water are present. Alpha radiation is lethal if it is inhaled.

The Hiroshima bomb was a firecracker compared to today's nuclear weapons.


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## Seneca

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Invasion? That's not going to happen at least. There are exactly two places we can be invaded from, Canada and Mexico (forget about trying to push an invasion fleet over the oceans by air or by ship, that's not going to happen... heck, the US and UK barely managed to pull one off across the 30 miles of the English channel).
> 
> I think we would probably noticed a million troops on our borders ready to kick off a war.


Geographically the US would be a tough nut to crack for any nation planning an invasion/ground assault. Not to mention once they got here they'd be faced not only with fighting an army but a well armed and very p*ssed off population.

I think the only way they'd have a chance of mounting an invasion is with a nuclear first strike, a mix of ground and EMP bursts. The counterstrike against who ever launched such an invasion would ensure they had no place to return to should their invasion fail.

The real danger to the US comes from within, and the invasion if there were one, would come in the guise of assistance after the fact. Probably from the UN.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> THE PREPPERS MOTTO:
> 
> "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I am the most prepared S.O.B. in the valley."


That's a much cleaner version than the Marine Corps one...


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## PaulS

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> First of all, you are talking about the Hiroshima A-bomb, which was 13-18 kilotons. Today's nuclear bombs yield 25,000 kilotons or more. You do the math.
> 
> If a modern nuclear bomb and it's massive wave of energy didn't flatten everything in sight, then the massive amounts of gamma radiation released would travel for many, many miles, exposing every living thing to massive, lethal doses of radiation.
> 
> Alpha or Beta radiation won't penetrate buildings or fruit or skin, but gamma radiation penetrates EVERYTHING, unless lead shielding or lots of water are present. Alpha radiation is lethal if it is inhaled.
> 
> The Hiroshima bomb was a firecracker compared to today's nuclear weapons.


The affected area does not go up as a factor of yield. the standard yield of todays nukes is on an average only 3 to 5 Mt. They have an incineration diameter of about 1 to 2 miles, a radiation blast of about 2 to 4 miles, a heat blast of five miles and once you get 20 miles from the blast you are fairly safe from all effects other than fallout and modern bombs don't produce much fallout because they are detonated 1 to 3 miles above the surface. A ground blast covers a much smaller area but produces a lot more fallout. Still at twenty miles from the blast you can easily survive. In all but ground bursts the area at ground zero is safe to move into after two weeks. It takes a bit longer with ground bursts. The effects are not lasting.

You really do need to get educated on the effect of nukes.


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## paraquack

PaulS said:


> The affected area does not go up as a factor of yield. the standard yield of todays nukes is on an average only 3 to 5 Mt. They have an incineration diameter of about 1 to 2 miles, a radiation blast of about 2 to 4 miles, a heat blast of five miles and once you get 20 miles from the blast you are fairly safe from all effects other than fallout and modern bombs don't produce much fallout because they are detonated 1 to 3 miles above the surface. A ground blast covers a much smaller area but produces a lot more fallout. Still at twenty miles from the blast you can easily survive. In all but ground bursts the area at ground zero is safe to move into after two weeks. It takes a bit longer with ground bursts. The effects are not lasting.
> 
> You really do need to get educated on the effect of nukes.


While I agree with PaulS, I don't worry as much about nukes delivered by missile but rather the one delivered by hand. These would most likely be ground level detonations. I think terrorists with nukes or dirty bombs are my number one concern.


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## PaulS

Although they would effect a very small area a dirty bomb will likely be "hand delivered" to a very popular and populated area for maximum terror effect. I don't go to sports events, movie premiers or large conventions - not so much because of the threat (although those would be the targets of choice) - but because I really prefer more intimate group sizes. Close friends and family is more than enough people to talk to and have fun with.


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## PatriotFlamethrower

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> That's a much cleaner version than the Marine Corps one...


Think of mine as being much closer to the "Biblical" version. LOL


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## PatriotFlamethrower

PaulS said:


> The affected area does not go up as a factor of yield. the standard yield of todays nukes is on an average only 3 to 5 Mt. They have an incineration diameter of about 1 to 2 miles, a radiation blast of about 2 to 4 miles, a heat blast of five miles and once you get 20 miles from the blast you are fairly safe from all effects other than fallout and modern bombs don't produce much fallout because they are detonated 1 to 3 miles above the surface. A ground blast covers a much smaller area but produces a lot more fallout. Still at twenty miles from the blast you can easily survive. In all but ground bursts the area at ground zero is safe to move into after two weeks. It takes a bit longer with ground bursts. The effects are not lasting.
> 
> You really do need to get educated on the effect of nukes.


I am not going to engage you in a debate about the effects of radioactive fallout, both acute and chronic, or the amount of damage that modern nuclear weapons are capable of.

I don't know where you get your information from (Wikipedia?), but my THIRTY years of experience in the nuclear power plant industry as a radiochemist and health physics engineer certainly trumps your general knowledge, unless I am incorrect about your limited knowledge on this particular topic.

As for my "education" on the topic of "nukes", I'll just walk to a neutral corner and let the referee count you out.

I learned a long time ago to "stay in my own lane". I know very little about computer programming and anything to do with the "inner" workings of computer technology. I concede that computers are NOT in my lane, so I defer to experts like you.

The list of what I don't know is much longer than the list of what I do know. That's what keeps life interesting for me. I am ALWAYS learning something.

You should do the same. It's OK to not know everything about everything. The taste of "humble pie" can be bitter, but you get used to it.


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## bigwheel

Slippy said:


> The OP may be correct in regards to many people, but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Amen. We aint here to sweat the small stuff.


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## PaulS

You may indeed have the education you proclaim but none of it covers nuclear detonations. Power plants, radio chemistry, and health physics has little to do with the range of effects at a distance from a nuclear detonation.
I have posted a few references to back up my claims in the past. I get the feeling that you are very comfortable with your opinions and you are welcome to them. As long as you are satisfied with your knowledge there is nothing I even want to do to change that. If you are interested in more factual data look here:
Nuclear Weapon Effects
For a more in depth analysis along with formula to calculate effects you can read this:
Effects of Nuclear Explosions

I don't have any Wikipedia sites saved but I am sure you can find those if you want to compare the math with whatever you find on Wiki sites.


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## TacticalCanuck

The small stuff the big stuff it all don't matter when you don't have your health. Health is all I pray for.


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## Kauboy

The extent of my education on nuclear weapons:


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## PaulS

For those who would like illustrations there is a very good PDF here:
http://fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/7906/790604.pdf
Down around page 25? (plus or minus a few pages) there is the range of effects of a nuclear airburst over Detroit of 1 Megatons. The blast effect is shown in the concentric circles and stop at >1 psi at about 10 miles , I believe.

One thing to remember is that for every 200 pounds per square foot between you and a nuclear detonation 50% of the radiation is stopped. That amounts to about two feet of dirt, sand, or concrete. With 4 feet you get 25%, 6 feet 12.5%, 8 feet 6.25% and so on. That is % of the available radiation which diminishes over time and distance. Approximately 1 to 2 minutes after the detonation there is no more danger from direct radiation. The only danger is from fallout which is negligible with air burst weapons. It would be a major concern with ground or underground detonations which would be rare.


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## PatriotFlamethrower

PaulS said:


> You may indeed have the education you proclaim but none of it covers nuclear detonations. Power plants, radio chemistry, and health physics has little to do with the range of effects at a distance from a nuclear detonation.
> I have posted a few references to back up my claims in the past. I get the feeling that you are very comfortable with your opinions and you are welcome to them. As long as you are satisfied with your knowledge there is nothing I even want to do to change that. If you are interested in more factual data look here:
> Nuclear Weapon Effects
> For a more in depth analysis along with formula to calculate effects you can read this:
> Effects of Nuclear Explosions
> 
> I don't have any Wikipedia sites saved but I am sure you can find those if you want to compare the math with whatever you find on Wiki sites.


You're correct. Nuke power plants never had any evacuation plans, or radiation release protocols, or any of that stuff. There was no such thing as a 10 mile radius evacuation plan, or any sort of computer modeling relating to radiation dosage to the general public, based on wind direction, various weather parameters, etc.

Why is it that nuclear tests conducted in Nevada in the 40s and 50s left radioactive fallout in UTAH that is still measurable to this day?


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## PaulS

Because the original atom bombs like the ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were only about 2% efficient. The uranium that did not get consumed in fission was spread, along with the ground material that was pulled into the fireball from low level detonations, was spread by both the explosive force and the prevailing winds. Measurable amounts can be a bit misleading, you can measure amounts of background radiation anywhere on earth and those "background levels are tripled at the altitude of trans continental and intercontinental flights. Are they dangerous levels? Not under most conditions but they can rise to moderate levels during solar storms. How much above the "normal" background radiation levels are the measurable levels of the "downwind" locations in Utah? I am living in a "downwind" area of the old Hanford site and the levels here are 1% higher than the normal background level. So if I was to lay in the dirt for the rest of my life I would get about the same exposure as I get when I get a chest X-ray. I am not concerned. If I flew twice a week from Tallahassee to Nome I would get that much exposure in just over a month.


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## PaulS

Patriot,
This has been a great discussion and I have enjoyed it. I will check back to see if it is continuing but if not I just want to say that you have been polite and I have enjoyed it.
Thanks!


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## Prepared One




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## Kauboy

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> You're correct. Nuke power plants never had any evacuation plans, or radiation release protocols, or any of that stuff. There was no such thing as a 10 mile radius evacuation plan, or any sort of computer modeling relating to radiation dosage to the general public, based on wind direction, various weather parameters, etc.
> 
> Why is it that nuclear tests conducted in Nevada in the 40s and 50s left radioactive fallout in UTAH that is still measurable to this day?


I just want to be clear on this...
I'm not trying to antagonize, but you do realize the vast differences between a nuclear meltdown and a nuclear bomb detonation, right?
I have a feeling you're both speaking from different perspectives about two topics that have some overlap, but are not apples and apples.


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## Charles Martel

triem said:


> You have no clue how feral/depraved people can get or how fast/easily they will get there, either.


I've seen it first hand. I was on the ground in New Orleans scarcely a couple days after Hurricane Katrina. I know what people can become when they're scared, hungry, and there is no rule of law constraining their behavior. I've watched mobs roll through neighborhoods, leaving absolute destruction in their wakes. I have seen people beaten nearly to death for a cold MRE and a half-full bottle of water. I've seen children abandoned, and left to die by their mothers. This, more than any other single experience I have ever had, convinced me to become a prepper and a survivalist.

We think that we have evolved...that our civilization has made us better than the rest of the animal kingdom. I can assure you that we are not.


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## RNprepper

PaulS said:


> Although they would effect a very small area a dirty bomb will likely be "hand delivered" to a very popular and populated area for maximum terror effect. I don't go to sports events, movie premiers or large conventions - not so much because of the threat (although those would be the targets of choice) - but because I really prefer more intimate group sizes. Close friends and family is more than enough people to talk to and have fun with.


Paul, I don't frequent large sporting events or malls during the holidays because I AM concerned that those are the very places a terrorist would love to hit. Why be in a target area in the first place? I also prefer smaller, quieter groups. The frenzy of crowds is not my cup of tea. Superbowl? World Series? I wouldn't go even if I had free tickets.


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## PaulS

RNprepper said:


> Paul, I don't frequent large sporting events or malls during the holidays because I AM concerned that those are the very places a terrorist would love to hit. Why be in a target area in the first place? I also prefer smaller, quieter groups. The frenzy of crowds is not my cup of tea. Superbowl? World Series? I wouldn't go even if I had free tickets.


OK, how about a NASCAR race - like say Daytona Speed week? :shock:


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## BagLady

triem said:


> dont kid yourself that you "know' how people will react. People have NEVER in this world seen something as catastrophic as shtf will be. there's never been this many people, so utterly un connected with the Earth and reality, so well armed, so weak. nearly all the seed is hybrid, it won't reproduce. there's no horse drawn farm implements, and the horse are not trained, and if shtf, the dogs will be eaten, by the starving dog packs and the people.
> 
> Most people will sodomize their grandma with barbed wire before they will do a 20 year sentence in a Fed prison, which is nicer, in most ways, than US army camps in Iraq or Afghanistan. Just wait until those same people have to choose between killing you and watching their kids starve! You have no clue how feral/depraved people can get or how fast/easily they will get there, either.


I don't know where you live, but, we do have horse drawn implements, trained horses/mules, and NON-Hybrid seeds. I also know many many more folks as well equipped. 
Sodomize their Grandmothers?? Only a pervert would do that. Nothing to gain from that.


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## PatriotFlamethrower

If anybody needs proof that poorly-trained people, with long guns and large numbers, can cause a lot of damage and conquer a more well-trained and well-equipped foe, you need look no further than the Korean War.

The Chinese had strength in numbers, and little else, and they routed the "U.N." (aka American forces) out of North Korea.

Well over 300 million firearms are in circulation in the USA. Those are tough numbers to deal with, and the rest of the world, and the U.S. government, both know it.


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## BagLady

Where's the OP?? One hit wonder?


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## alterego

Maine-Marine said:


> Since you have no idea what the event will be...you are guessing here.
> 
> Financial Collapse - happened in the US before
> Pandemic - Happened in the US before
> Civil War - Happened in the US before


It will never happen here all those events happened long ago before we were so well educated and organized. We have nothing but goody great goodness coming in the future. Obama's policies are finally starting to take effect.


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## CWOLDOJAX

In the first few days or weeks of an SHTF event I think general humanity will do well supporting each other.

-- When PSA flight 182 crashed in Sandy Eggo, I had several shipmates directly impacted. Neighbors were the first ones to respond to crash victims and defend the site until authorities arrived. Then guarded each other's homes until reconstruction began.

-- The Moore Oklahoma tornados wiped out a large portion of military family and civilian family homes. Churches and businesses showed-up and cared for the folks without hesitation... but then Okies are like that.

-- Hurricane Katrina, evacuees were greeted and housed by churches, schools, and other community volunteers... at their own expense, without ever being on the news or help from the Red Cross... for several weeks.

-- I've been involved in evacuations, bombing reclamation, hurricanes, tornadoes, and more... yes there are a lot a bad guys, and they will show up, but there are also a great many good guys. Many times I've seen a kindness given turn into a shared alliance. Just saying.

I suppose the SHTF the OP started on has more to do with a region which has been through oppression and or military action than many other types of SHTF.


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## Kauboy

BagLady said:


> Where's the OP?? One hit wonder?


He seems more inclined to just stir up than actually discuss. He's fairly sure that he knows more than the rest of us too. His crystal ball must get better reception than mine.


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