# Reality of Self Defense



## JPARIZ (Feb 25, 2013)

I just finished a discussion with a neighbor regarding gun control. I wasted my time & effort. The ignorance of the general public astonishes me. 
The reality is that YOU are responsible for your safety. Any no matter what you always have the right and duty to defend yourself.
If you assume you can rely on law enforcement to protect you because you always have your cell-phone handy you are seriously mistaken. LEOs try their best to respond in time but far too often it's impossible.
Guns aren't evil... stupid people that use them incorrectly are.
If you are not proficient with a firearm, take a safety class then become intimately familiar with them and practice. When the time is right, buy one! 
Imagine if you had to live with the guilt of watching a loved one raped and/or murdered while you stood by helpless.
It isn't the cops fault for not showing up in time, it's yours! You ARE the first line of defense. Wake up and do something about it before it's too late.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Yep I have a sister in law like your neighbor. She hates guns to the point I have to hold the ones promised their kids. We gotta wait for her come to Jesus meeting ( real one ) before that happens. It's funny I was in LE when she joined the family, she knows my background, and every now and then she'll say something, oh you don't still have guns do you? She is stupid serious. Next time she comes over I'm going to break out the M1A for a nice cleaning


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## Mesozoic Survivalist (Mar 24, 2013)

It's amazing how some people can think that nothing bad will ever happen to them, or if it does they will be helped before anything truly bad occurs because they're good people and don't deserve bad things to happen to them. Criminals insisting they can do whatever they want because they have a gun, they will do whatever they want unless the threat of death deters them. If everybody including law enforcement had such a negative view on guns and didn't use them, the criminals still would use them. Owning a gun doesn't make anybody a good person but it doesn't make anybody a bad person either. The reality is that the person's intent is what makes the gun a bad thing. Coming from a country with strict gun laws, I can safely say that if it's not guns that people possess to commit crimes, it's simply knives or any other tool they can use as a weapon. I can also safely say that in the few short minutes it takes for a person to shoot or stab you, I would not be relying on the twenty minutes or so for help to arrive should somebody have been around to call the police. I can't understand the attitude, especially when you have children. If words and reasoning is your best defence against violence, prepare bandages for everybody around you.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

I find no disagreement with what has been posted.
No jab at LE but all they do is show up for paper work most of the time, just the way it is.
This we shall defend does not apply only to the flag but each other.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

On tv the good guys always get saved by LE just in time. The only thing I can come up with is that people believe this is how it will happen to them. They don't have a clue. In my burb they police strive for a 6 minute response time. In most cases, depending on the situation, this could be way too late. The 2nd thing they usually believe is that bad things only happen to other people.


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## Old Man (Dec 10, 2012)

Most with never change their mind. If they told you the true, they would tell you that you are one of the gun crazy people. They are the very ones that agree with gun control. But when the SHTF they we be the very first ones ask for your help. My answer will be ( old just wait on the LE's, they be here sometime. Now get the hell of my property.)


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

inceptor said:


> On tv the good guys always get saved by LE just in time. The only thing I can come up with is that people believe this is how it will happen to them. They don't have a clue. In my burb they police strive for a 6 minute response time. In most cases, depending on the situation, this could be way too late. The 2nd thing they usually believe is that bad things only happen to other people.


I think that the TV shows are all part of the brainwashing / dumbing down of the English speaking world.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I have the same problem as Ripon, with my sis-in-law. Very intelligent woman, a real big shot where she works. Gone thru the reasons I have a firearm and why my wife has one. I thought maybe the idea of my wife being pro-firearm, might at least give her an open mind. But no, Worse yet, she has bought into the anti-gun people's lies and such.


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## Kidzthinkimahoarder (Feb 11, 2013)

Alot of people's attitudes is dependent on how they were raised or where. Some end up with partners in life that live the way most of us do and it becomes apart of thier life, and some don't ever change that way of thinking.

Even in this rural community I live in, there are anti-gun people. What kills me is it's a "city folk" kinda thinking. Raised up in the country and poor, if you were to eat, you killed something. In the cities..you went to the nearest food stamp office or food bank., thier food comes in a can or a box. In the country....food comes covered in fur/fins/feathers or dirt.

Which leads to alot of the attitude.

I've had discussion with women that I worked with that transplanted their whole families out here, killing anything was deemed, "Aww, how could you kill Bambi?" or "You eat what?" Which led into discussions of guns. I'd say 90% of those transplants have never held a gun in their lives, and don't want too. I've offered to take them shooting, and even hunting with me. And a shake of the head no, was the typical answer.

Just like here recently. We have new neighbors that are from a large city on the west coast. The first time the lady walked into my house she encountered 2 guns sitting behind the front door and another 2 on the other side propped against the wall...along with all these deer heads on the walls along with Turkey Fans. I had to giggle. Her reaction was strong and full of dislike. My thought was.."Ohh well, go back across the fence and stay there." Later on in another discussion she asked about LE....I laughed again and explained to her that they were far and few between on this end of the county and it could possibly take upwards to an hour for them to show. She asked, "What do you do if you have someone try to break in?" I simply replied, " We're gun owners, they can try but they won't like the end results..." The look on her face was priceless! Hell yeah I'd shoot someone...

These new neighbors are college educated, but it doesn't make them smart in the sense of guns or self-defense and with they way they have lived in a SHTF scenario, they'd be S.O.L in a heartbeat. I have a feeling that the new neighbors and we...will not get along in the end. We fire guns in our front yard, we shoot bows off the front porch, and I don't intend on changing the way we live to suit a transplant that come into my world. This is the way WE LIVE...deal with it!

So....I'm anticipating our first.."you need a gun" conversation that I know will be a topic soon to come. I'd bet money they don't own one, and not looking to invest in one.

I'm sure I can't change the way they think, don't intend on it. But they need not come knocking on my door asking to borrow one either. Our guns aren't for hire or loan....


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

_I carry a gun, because I can't carry a cop_ No, seriously there is a media war going on against gun owners, and they will say anything to impose their will. Main stream media even want to make gun ownership a racial thing, suggesting only people pro-gun are poor uneducated white ********. Remember how these anti-gun people say we have the blood of innocent people on our hands because we don't agree with them?


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## trainershawn (Dec 14, 2012)

Here's a quote that put's it plainly,

You may not own a gun, that is your right.
You made not believe in God, that is your choice. 
But the first two things your going to do when someone breaks into your home to harm you is,
1. Call someone with a gun.
2. Pray they get there on time.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

JPARIZ said:


> ..If you are not proficient with a firearm, take a safety class then become intimately familiar with them and practice. When the time is right, buy one!..


I know zilch about guns, .22's seem fairly popular in America but I can't understand why, as I'd have thought something bigger such as a .38 or 9mm would have more stopping power


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

If something goes bump in the night the wife grabs the cell, I grab the 12 gauge!


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

In my house the wife grabs to 9mm, I dial 911 and then grab the 20 ga. or .45


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I fasten my seatbelts, I have insurance and I carry a gun. I do them all because after you decide you need one of the three it's already too late.
So, just in case, I protect myself.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Lucky Jim said:


> I know zilch about guns, .22's seem fairly popular in America but I can't understand why, as I'd have thought something bigger such as a .38 or 9mm would have more stopping power


I keep a 45 auto next to my bed, I started to buy a .380 for a carry pistol, however someone pointed out a 9mm is bigger and the ammo is cheaper, I found this to be true and bought one.
*edit;* I also bought a 22 auto because it was so much cheaper to shoot, least it was before the big ammo shortage.


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## Infidel (Dec 22, 2012)

Try this one on her,

Warren Vs. The District Of Columbia
"The court stated that official police personnel and the government employing them owe no duty to victims of criminal acts and thus are not liable for a failure to provide adequate police protection unless a special relationship exists."

I had to look it up but I knew there was a lawsuit over it. Most police agencies strive for decent response times but let's face it no matter how close they are it's going to take time to get there. Goes back to the old adage when seconds matter help is minutes away. In no way is this a dig at law enforcement, it's just impossible for them to be everywhere at once.

-Infidel


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

Lucky Jim said:


> I know zilch about guns, .22's seem fairly popular in America but I can't understand why, as I'd have thought something bigger such as a .38 or 9mm would have more stopping power


Yep, we love our .22's, but when it's time to get serious we think more, or .45, .40 S&W, 9mm, .223, 308, 12 ga, etc. A .22 isn't the first choice for a defesive gun, but given a choice of nothing or a .22, I figure I'm a good enough shot it's gonna hurt when it hits. I might not hurt for long though...


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## Kidzthinkimahoarder (Feb 11, 2013)

Lucky Jim said:


> I know zilch about guns, .22's seem fairly popular in America but I can't understand why, as I'd have thought something bigger such as a .38 or 9mm would have more stopping power


I was told that a .22 was about as lethal as you could get to some extent. The bullet enters and ricochets it's way out hitting numerous areas with one shot, where anything larger may go straight through...

I may be wrong..and if I am, feel free to correct that. I haven't bothered to look it up or find a guniea pig to try it out on...lol


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Kidzthinkimahoarder said:


> I was told that a .22 was about as lethal as you could get to some extent. The bullet enters and ricochets it's way out hitting numerous areas with one shot, where anything larger may go straight through...
> 
> I may be wrong..and if I am, feel free to correct that. I haven't bothered to look it up or find a guniea pig to try it out on...lol


High veleocity 22s like the 223 are more prone to changes in direction and bouncing around but the rimfire 22s will follow bones under the muscle. They are exterior lubed bullets so they tend to deposit that and whatever is on the bullet with it as it travels. 22RF leaves a crooked and dirty trail so they are most likely to get infected - doctors hate them because to clean the wound they have to follow the bullet with a scalple and brush.

I would rather kill quickly than wait for infection to set in. The only place that infection is a reasonable goal is on the battle field. It takes two people to care for the injured soldier and it is demoralizing.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

PaulS said:


> High veleocity 22s like the 223 are more prone to changes in direction and bouncing around but the rimfire 22s will follow bones under the muscle. They are exterior lubed bullets so they tend to deposit that and whatever is on the bullet with it as it travels. 22RF leaves a crooked and dirty trail so they are most likely to get infected - doctors hate them because to clean the wound they have to follow the bullet with a scalple and brush.
> 
> I would rather kill quickly than wait for infection to set in. The only place that infection is a reasonable goal is on the battle field. It takes two people to care for the injured soldier and it is demoralizing.


I really like a Remington SP-10 semi auto 10 gauge, for just that reason.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I agree, I would rather kill quickly than wait for the man beating the crap out of me to die from an infection!


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Well, my "go to" gun in the home has always been my Mossberg 12 gauge ATP-8. It is a light weight pump with a 20 inch cylinder barrel loaded with 7shells of 1 1/4 oz. of #9 shot at 1300 fps. The longest range that it would be used in the house is about 20 feet. According to the tests that I have run with my Fackler box it will make a 4-5 inch hole nearly 6 inches deep in soft tissue. With one shot to the center of mass you destroy the heart and both lungs. You impart 100 ft/lb/seconds of momentum to your target and almost 2000 ft/lbs of energy. You do this with a round that will not penetrate an exterior wall of a well built home, and is capable of a "one shot kill" on a game animal weighing 469 pounds. Even a person wearing body armor will feel the impact (without penetration) of a 10 pound sledge hammer. An effective defense against all two legged rats.


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## Kidzthinkimahoarder (Feb 11, 2013)

PaulS said:


> High veleocity 22s like the 223 are more prone to changes in direction and bouncing around but the rimfire 22s will follow bones under the muscle. They are exterior lubed bullets so they tend to deposit that and whatever is on the bullet with it as it travels. 22RF leaves a crooked and dirty trail so they are most likely to get infected - doctors hate them because to clean the wound they have to follow the bullet with a scalple and brush.
> 
> I would rather kill quickly than wait for infection to set in. The only place that infection is a reasonable goal is on the battle field. It takes two people to care for the injured soldier and it is demoralizing.


Got it...


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## JPARIZ (Feb 25, 2013)

Again... never underestimate the potential of the .22LR.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

JPARIZ said:


> Again... never underestimate the potential of the .22LR.


I love .22LR, own several for plinking, varmint control, training. That being said I would never ever consider taking one to a gun fight, if it is your only gun available shame on you.

The bullet is too light and too slow and is very likely to be deflected by bone, clothing, or even that baseball bat your attacker is going to kill you with. Couple that with ZERO knock down power and you have a disaster waiting to happen. Some big fat guy with a leather jacket and the bullet probably won't make it through his beer gut let alone "bounce around inside".

Sure 30 minutes after you empty your clip into him he may die, but your corpse will be getting cold by then. .22LR has no stopping power, no hydraulics and pathetic penetration. If you only get 1 gun, make it a 12 gauge for home defense, you can use slugs for decent accuracy out past 100 yards which also beats a .22.


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## Scotty12 (Jan 5, 2013)

I have a benelli supernova tactical for the house. For the yard I have a RRA with a eotech 551. I also have a remongton 700 sps tactical. I set up a range card around the area of the neighborhood. Concentric rings that at least I believe that I can defend if necessary


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

I had a pal who resigned from the Brit Territorial Army some years ago because he was fed up with the SA-80 5.56mm rifles they were being issued with, as he'd have preferred to keep the dear old 7.62 mm SLR's they had previously.
I know a 5.56mm flies faster from military rifles, but 5.56 is only .22 inches and quickly loses its kinetic energy over longer ranges, or if it has to penetrate light cover.
This bullet size pic says it all- (l to r: 5.56mm / .303" / 7.62mm)


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

I've been in law enforcement nearly 30 years, before anyone thinks that the previous comments made have upset me they haven't. What has been posted is true. I live in a county of about 70,000 to 80,000 and is mostly rural outside the main cities. When I worked for the city police in the county seat we had a response time of around an average of 7 minutes. I have since switched to the sheriff's department and response time has gone up dramatically. We have about half the patrol working as does the city with a whole lot more territory to cover. I have seen response time over 30 minutes. Now 7 minutes is a long time to wait when you need help, just imagine 30! And yes we as law enforcement have no duty to protect individual people unless we have created the duty to do so. We are to keep the peace to society as a whole.

Regarding the .22 caliber, I have seen numerous people killed with a single shot from one of these rounds. Albeit they were head shots, which proves the old adage shot placement is what counts. I have seen shots from a 44 mag. not put people down( a former officer I worked with can testify to this).Would I recommend this be your only weapon, NO! But if its all you got or can afford at this time, practice with it till it becomes second nature and until you can get something a little bigger and better.


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## IngaLisa (Jan 31, 2013)

Doesn't lethality of the .22lr depend on the type of the bullet? Also, from what I have read and watched, .22 can be lethal at 400 yards. I would think head or neck shots would be lethal? I wouldn't underestimate it, neither would I count on it as my only weapon, but it beats a club. I think the 22lr is an easier weapon for women to handle. I am a small woman, and for me, I can hit the target with a 22lr better than a big old honkin' high caliber rifle. 

Speaking of, how is the ammo situation?


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

midtnfamilyguy said:


> I've been in law enforcement nearly 30 years, before anyone thinks that the previous comments made have upset me they haven't. What has been posted is true. I live in a county of about 70,000 to 80,000 and is mostly rural outside the main cities. When I worked for the city police in the county seat we had a response time of around an average of 7 minutes. I have since switched to the sheriff's department and response time has gone up dramatically. We have about half the patrol working as does the city with a whole lot more territory to cover. I have seen response time over 30 minutes. Now 7 minutes is a long time to wait when you need help, just imagine 30! And yes we as law enforcement have no duty to protect individual people unless we have created the duty to do so. We are to keep the peace to society as a whole.
> 
> Regarding the .22 caliber, I have seen numerous people killed with a single shot from one of these rounds. Albeit they were head shots, which proves the old adage shot placement is what counts. I have seen shots from a 44 mag. not put people down( a former officer I worked with can testify to this).Would I recommend this be your only weapon, NO! But if its all you got or can afford at this time, practice with it till it becomes second nature and until you can get something a little bigger and better.


Thank you for your service and your common sense comment. Common sense can be very lacking on this site.


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## JPARIZ (Feb 25, 2013)

IngaLisa said:


> Doesn't lethality of the .22lr depend on the type of the bullet? Also, from what I have read and watched, .22 can be lethal at 400 yards. I would think head or neck shots would be lethal? I wouldn't underestimate it, neither would I count on it as my only weapon, but it beats a club. I think the 22lr is an easier weapon for women to handle. I am a small woman, and for me, I can hit the target with a 22lr better than a big old honkin' high caliber rifle.
> 
> Speaking of, how is the ammo situation?


I'd say placement is more important than bullet type of any caliber. Location, location, location. 
As for the ammo shortage, besides the massive govt. orders, much of it has been people buying for resale at ridiculous prices & general hoarding. So no, it isn't any better. You just need to be at the store at the right time.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Serpico was shot in the kisser pointblank and it just made a little hole in his cheek and dazed him for a while.
Here are a couple of stills from the film, I think I heard somewhere that the gun was a .25"?


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## JPARIZ (Feb 25, 2013)

Lucky Jim said:


> Serpico was shot in the kisser pointblank and it just made a little hole in his cheek and dazed him for a while.
> Here are a couple of stills from the film, I think I heard somewhere that the gun was a .25"?


Photo looks like a Colt Woodsman which I believe were .22LR. Pretty rare, if you find one for sale snatch it up!


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## Infidel (Dec 22, 2012)

According to Wikipedia which isn't all that reliable Serpico was shot with a .22lr just below the eye and the bullet lodged at the top of his jaw. He survived that shooting which should tell you something. Yes a .22lr might work in some situations but it's not nearly reliable enough. The .22lr is better than nothing but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it. 

The CCI Velocitor travels 1435fps at the muzzle and develops 183 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. By comparison even the lowly .380ACP (the minimum cartridge I would consider acceptable for self defense) in the Hornady critical duty 90gr FTX load travels only 1000fps but develops 200 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. That being said the .22lr develops more energy and is faster than both the .25ACP and .32ACP so in my eyes would be a better choice than either of those cartridges. The .22lr might make a good backup gun but if choosing a primary carry gun, you will want something that a) produces more energy on target and b) you can get quality self defense ammo for, you want something with a quality hollow point. Now this is all of course presuming that it's being fired from a handgun. In a .223 Rem rifle I would go with something like the Federal 64 gr Power Shock load Velocity of 3050fps and energy of 1322 at the muzzle (over 7x the energy of the Velocitor). Look for a light gas operated semi auto carbine and you should be able to handle it with no trouble, recoil is almost non existent and length of pull can almost always be made to fit any stature.

Another thing to consider is that .22lr ammo is not always 100% reliable and even the handguns sometimes are not. If you decide to keep a .22 for defense, load it with quality ammunition and test that ammunition in the gun before you decide on it. I know in my Ruger Mark III some ammo doesn't feed reliably, especially standard velocity stuff which doesn't develop enough energy to drive the bolt all the way back if you get a light load. This is fairly common in bulk ammo of which Remington bulk ammo seems to be the biggest offender, I've also had rounds from several brands of bulk ammo that wouldn't fire no matter how many times the firing pin struck, this is something you learn to deal with when plinking with bulk ammo but could mean the difference between life and death in a self defense situation.

-Infidel


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

The reality of self defense, is that your defense relies mainly upon you.

That goes all the way back to the dawn of time, . . . before the word "Police" was even invented.

Today, . . . I live in a highly populated state, Ohio, . . . and in a fairly highly populated area.

The last time I dialed 911 for LEO help, . . . it was just over 1/2 an hour, . . . and one lone deputy showed up. No disrespect meant by the next comment either, . . . but if that particular doughnut muncher would have needed to get out of his cruiser and get physical, . . . I seriously doubt if he would have fared well.

Bottom line? You and your tools are responsible for your safety, protection, and security. Get the tools you want, . . . train with them, . . . and just hope you never need to use them.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Never underestimate the lethality of any round - but don't overestimate it either.
The 22LR is lethal and can be lethal out beyond 100 yards but the 40 grain bullet leaves the barrel at just over the speed of sound and somewhere between 50 and 75 yards it makes the transition to sub-sonic. That transition can destroy your accuracy. The one thing you need with the 22LR is accuracy. The target "kill zone" is very small and gets smaller the further away the target is. At close range the 22LR can penetrate the skull and kill but beyond that range you have to be able to hit target areas the size of a quarter or smaller. Try hitting a dot the size of an eye or the soft temple spot at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. Try hitting one of the four arteries, veins, air-ways or spinal cord in the neck. I suggest you make a target with six 1" dots on it and then try to hit each one ant different ranges. My 22 rifle is sighted in at 62 yards. At 20 yards I have to aim 1/4" low, at 40 yards I have to aim almost 1" low, at 60 yards I aim 3/32" low and at 80 yards I have to aim 2 3/4" high. If there is even a slight wind (5mph) it can carry the bullet as much as 4 1/2" to one side at 80 yards. In small bore silhouette you have to be able to keep your shots inside a 2" circle at 80 yards to be able to hit the targets reliably. You should try it. It is fun and can be very competitive trying to out shoot your self each time.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

In reading the above posts, I agree that the 22. is not the caliber of ammo I would want in a defensive situation if I had another option available. In 2009 my department had an officer shot in the lower jaw with a .357. It went through a door frame before hitting him. He was able to call for help himself and had to go through a couple of surgeries but he is back on duty doing good. So I guess my point is, even though the .357 is regarded as one of the best defensive calibers( I have trusted one for years and still would), it goes to show that any caliber can not perform as well as expected and some can do better than expected.


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