# Addiction and All You Need to Know



## PalmettoTree

From time to time someone post that they or a love one is struggling because a family member is an addict. Here is all you need to know about such people. Alcohol, drugs, tobacco, gambling the addiction is irrelevant to understanding the addict.

Addicts are profoundly weak people. They cannot face life without a crutch. They are not sick. They do not have a disease or illness. They are defectively weak. They are the hatchling that is best pushed out of the nest. They are natures mistake not your mistake. The sooner you face this fact and remove yourself and any children the better you will be for it.


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## PaulS

Wow! Addiction is a physical and mental condition that is treatable. It has nothing to do with will-power or being weak.
(this coming from a man who was married to a practicing addict for 13 years) I have never been addicted to anything but I have known a few people who were. Some of them have stopped practicing and are doing fine - the Ex-wife is still practicing and I am sure it will one day be the cause of her death.


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## Montana Rancher

PalmettoTree said:


> From time to time someone post that they or a love one is struggling because a family member is an addict. Here is all you need to know about such people. Alcohol, drugs, tobacco, gambling the addiction is irrelevant to understanding the addict.
> 
> Addicts are profoundly weak people. They cannot face life without a crutch. They are not sick. They do not have a disease or illness. They are defectively weak. They are the hatchling that is best pushed out of the nest. They are natures mistake not your mistake. The sooner you face this fact and remove yourself and any children the better you will be for it.


My first post with obscenities

Sorry you don't know what the **** you are talking about


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## Inor

PalmettoTree said:


> From time to time someone post that they or a love one is struggling because a family member is an addict. Here is all you need to know about such people. Alcohol, drugs, tobacco, gambling the addiction is irrelevant to understanding the addict.
> 
> Addicts are profoundly weak people. They cannot face life without a crutch. They are not sick. They do not have a disease or illness. They are defectively weak. They are the hatchling that is best pushed out of the nest. They are natures mistake not your mistake. The sooner you face this fact and remove yourself and any children the better you will be for it.


What is the point of this thread, other than to intentionally piss off some very well-liked and well-respected members of this site who identify themselves as recovering alcoholics? Are you trying to make some larger point or do you just enjoy being a dickhead?


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## BlackDog

I've been sober for 18 years and I can assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Inor

BlackDog said:


> I've been sober for 18 years and I can assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about.


By the way, welcome from Minnesota BlackDog!


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## indie

BlackDog said:


> I've been sober for 18 years and I can assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about.


Welcome to the forum. Great first post.  And congratulations on 18 years - that's an accomplishment!


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## Rigged for Quiet

Blackdog, glad to meet ya but sorry it was on this thread.


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## BlackDog

Thanks for the welcome and sorry for the lack of an intro! I'll find my way around and do a better job of introducing myself.


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## PrepperLite

Inor said:


> What is the point of this thread, other than to intentionally piss off some very well-liked and well-respected members of this site who identify themselves as recovering alcoholics? Are you trying to make some larger point or do you just enjoy being a dickhead?


Dont feed the trolls!


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## Inor

PrepperLite said:


> Dont feed the trolls!


My apologies, but sometimes @#$%!... After posting here for 6+ months you know me well enough to know...


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## inceptor

I think you are dealing with issues and needed to vent. I can understand and appreciate that but this may not have been the best crowd for that particular vent.


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## PalmettoTree

I am sure many of you find the truth offensive but it is none the less true. Addict that stop using a substance replace that substance with meetings, 12 steps of dependency, and fellow defects. These things likely save the addict's life and financially are less destructive. They remain defective. They are still dependent. They remain defective.

This thread is not to offend you addicts it is to put in proper prospective addicts to children and adults responsible for those children. Denying this basic truth I does life long damage.


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## Dr. Prepper

Hey Palmetto Tree - why did you start this thread?


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## MikeyPrepper

Trolls


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## rice paddy daddy

Montana Rancher said:


> My first post with obscenities
> 
> Sorry you don't know what the **** you are talking about


You are correct.


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## rice paddy daddy

PalmettoTree said:


> I am sure many of you find the truth offensive but it is none the less true. Addict that stop using a substance replace that substance with meetings, 12 steps of dependency, and fellow defects. These things likely save the addict's life and financially are less destructive. They remain defective. They are still dependent. They remain defective.
> 
> This thread is not to offend you addicts it is to put in proper prospective addicts to children and adults responsible for those children. Denying this basic truth I does life long damage.


Your ignorance is astounding.


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## PalmettoTree

I know exactly what I am talking about. I post this annually in some form. It helps many family members of addicts to see addicts in a clear and true light. Addicts usually find a way to destroy any and every celebration. Life to the addict is always about them. This correct prospective let's family members understand addicts are like ants on a picnic table. They will ruin everything unless brushed aside.


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## jimb1972

PalmettoTree said:


> I know exactly what I am talking about. I post this annually in some form. It helps many family members of addicts to see addicts in a clear and true light. Addicts usually find a way to destroy any and every celebration. Life to the addict is always about them. This correct prospective let's family members understand addicts are like ants on a picnic table. They will ruin everything unless brushed aside.


I would say your opinion is about as valid as one that describes the addict as a hopeless victim of genetics or environment. They are both a lot of B.S. with some small kernal of truth supporting both theories, not all former addicts go to meetings or destroy others lives to feed their addiction. I am not an addict, never have been (excluding tobacco) but I have known some who turned their lives around and been decent contributing members of society, I have even known addicts who still actively pursued their addiction who were decent contributing members of society.


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## PalmettoTree

I think there is adequate data to say addicts are defective. Sure there are people that recognize that the use of an addictive substance is not good for them and stop. These people are not addicts. They are normal people making normal decisions about using things that are harmful. A true addict is defective. They do not make normal decisions. They do not put family, jobs or any activity in a normal perspective. They cannot they are not normal. They are defective.

It is of the upmost importance to understand and face this fact. It does not mean you do not love the addict but you cannot trust or count on these defects of the human condition.


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## jimb1972

PalmettoTree said:


> I think there is adequate data to say addicts are defective. Sure there are people that recognize that the use of an addictive substance is not good for them and stop. These people are not addicts. They are normal people making normal decisions about using things that are harmful. A true addict is defective. They do not make normal decisions. They do not put family, jobs or any activity in a normal perspective. They cannot they are not normal. They are defective.
> 
> It is of the upmost importance to understand and face this fact. It does not mean you do not love the addict but you cannot trust or count on these defects of the human condition.


I could make the same statement about being defective regarding arrogant assholes. Abrasive, destructive of meaningful relationships, frequently everything is about them, and what they believe, and how they feel. My father was an alcoholic, never went to meetings, never beat his children, went to work everyday and supported his family. He died from liver failure at 52, but while alive he was reliable as a Swiss watch even though He had to go out to his truck at lunch every day for a drink so he could function through the rest of the day. I would guess you have an addict in your life and you know in your heart that some of the responsibility for their addiction is yours.


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## slewfoot

I am not a doctor but my own experience is this. I started drinking at age 16 and the older I got the more I drank but their never was that craving as I understand addicts get. I drank every night after work and all weekend long. When I was 27 my wife accused me of being an alcoholic I of course told her she was wrong and I would prove it buy not having a drink for a year. I lost track of how long it had been but one day she said too me that over a year had gone by after that it was an occasional drink now and then so something in me was not desiring alcohol. Next I smoked for 50 years cigarettes and cigars, times were changing and harder and harder to be able to find a place to enjoy a good smoke all my friends and relative's had quit so my wife and I decided to try quitting by using chantex, long story short, after 30 days I no longer wanted nor have had a smoke that was 6 years ago. I injured my back 10 years ago and went through 2 surgeries an have lived with a lot of pain and get epidurals every 8 weeks doc has prescribed pain killers for the times I need something in between but do not take them, when he asks why I tell him I do not want to become addicted to pain meds and he and one other doc. tells me I am not the type of person to get addicted. I don't understand that part but ok, maybe it is the mind and not the body I don't know. but that is my story.


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## PalmettoTree

jimb1972 said:


> I could make the same statement about being defective regarding arrogant assholes. Abrasive, destructive of meaningful relationships, frequently everything is about them, and what they believe, and how they feel. My father was an alcoholic, never went to meetings, never beat his children, went to work everyday and supported his family. He died from liver failure at 52, but while alive he was reliable as a Swiss watch even though He had to go out to his truck at lunch every day for a drink so he could function through the rest of the day. I would guess you have an addict in your life and you know in your heart that some of the responsibility for their addiction is yours.


He was still defective. He still needed his crutch. He cheated his grandchildren by causing his own early death. He cheated your mother and your family by diverting funds to his bottle. He was a danger on the road and those he worked with.


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## jimb1972

PalmettoTree said:


> He was still defective. He still needed his crutch. He cheated his grandchildren by causing his own early death. He cheated your mother and your family by diverting funds to his bottle. He was a danger on the road and those he worked with.


Possibly, but the same argument could be made about someone who is over weight, care to put your foot in your mouth to the knee there?


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## paraquack

I disagree with your post, because I was addicted to cigarettes. I was smoking over 3 packs a day. After about 10+ years and seeing my first autopsy and what smoking does to the body, I spent about 2 weeks suffering from withdrawal. With the help of my wife, I made it thru and stopped smoking. My only child is an alcohol/drug addict, and after spending thousands getting him help, I came to the realization he couldn't or wouldn't change. There were times I thought he was coming around but after being fooled too many times, after many, many times of sitting with my wife holding each other as we cried over him and what it was doing to him, my wife had no choice. As in your post, we more or less divorced ourselves from him. We have had no contact with him in the last 10+ years. 

I'm not sure how or why you've come to your conclusion but I feel from my own experience (that's all I can base my conclusion on) you are wrong. Some people my feel you are addicted to expounding on your conclusion since by your own admission, you post this opinion every year. You say that there is "adequate data". I've never seen or heard anything like this, and between my wife (a now retired nurse) and me, we've read so much "data" it's mind boggling. 
If you know of this "data" please post it, send it or link it to me. It would probably give my wife and me some closure to our predicament. Please understand, I'm not B S'ing you! I'd really like to see it.


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## AquaHull

I've been struggling with BRD daily since the first of June this year. I just got my daily fix in on "Cyber Monday"


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## MrsInor

Defective? Many years ago someone thought that anyone not blond and blue eyed was defective. We all know how well that turned out.


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## MI.oldguy

I disagree completely,You have to walk in ones shoes to understand...dont ask me how I know about ANY addiction...but,its done and over with...a long time ago...and no more tobacco any more either.my only addiction now is staying healthy and alive.


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## Notsoyoung

Maybe some people become addicts to deaden the pain of who they are related to.


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## GTGallop

Confession time - I've been following this thread with a morbid curiosity for where it is going. I don't think the OP was trolling. He obviously has had a life event that brought him to the conclusion that he expressed. And he felt that there would be some value in expressing it. Obviously there are also counter points about which people also feel passionate. The best part of this is that there is good information here for everyone to read and compare with their life experiences. Hot topic? You Betcha! But that is how we move through uncomfortable issues. Regardless if you agree with all, any, some, or none of the opinions and experiences expressed here, you have at least been exposed to the Yin and Yang of this issue and can make better decisions because of it. We have all benefited in one way or another.

The one benefit that I see missing here is the lack of compassion for the person. If I disagree with a statement, I attack the statement on the merit, value, and accuracy of the statement. I don't call that person names or degrade them. Any participant in a discussion/debate deserves to leave that debate with their dignity intact. You can confront the issue - not the person. Confronting the person only alienates them and makes it harder to get your point across.

As a prepper, there is a very real chance that one day you may find yourself the leader of a small pack of survivors. They all bring something to the table and just because they don't share your experience or education on certain topics doesn't make them less valuable. We have to find a way to civilly agree to disagree because this topic here is a prime example how an opinion or ideal can get out of control and divide a camp into factions. Here is the kicker - it doesn't make you any better off to be in the right, win the argument, and get fragged in your sleep by a survivor on your team that became disenfranchised with your leadership over an argument about who should have won the 2003 Superbowl.

Many times I have disagreed with someone and felt that they can not possibly be right because I have had some enlightening experience that they never had. Only later do I discover they too have had an enlightening experience that shaped their beliefs and through discussion we learn that the truth lies somewhere in between. When that happens both parties come out better than they were when they went in - it is the crucible effect that burns off the impurities and leaves a pure element.

I'm so glad that everyone shared here, but go back and look at the last three or four pages of posts and ask yourself how this would play out in a SHTF camp?


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## jimb1972

Saying all addicts are the same is like saying all Christians are the same, it is not true no matter how you wish to believe it. Your life is your own to do with as you wish, this is not a collectivist country and I am thankful for it. If my father deprived his family of money to spend on drink we did not notice its absence, if we were deprived of time it does not diminish the years that we had. We did not suffer because of alcoholism, and while I have chosen differently, I do not begrudge my father his choice. Addiction is a choice just like anything else in life, the choices we make define who we are, and who we are decides the choices we make. Kind of a whole chicken/egg thing.


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## Meangreen

Well to add fuel to the fire I think addiction and mental illness is a good prepping topic because like in the book, "One Second After" The addicts and psychos become everyone's problems because they can no longer get their fixes or medication and also will be released en mass from the penitentiaries and hospitals.


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## indie

I think I get what you're saying, but perhaps it is more specifically the ones who choose not to overcome addiction. Not all addicts are weak. In fact, it takes an amazing amount of strength to overcome an addiction, as the now sober/whatever folks here can attest to. There are a million and one reasons why people become addicted and I think almost all of us can relate to having a point in life where it feels almost impossible to cope. Some people turn to fixes to help them cope and then they're addicted. They're not weak. They're making bad choices, but who are we to judge that? No one here has made perfect decisions at every fork in the road.

It's the folks who use it as a crutch and it isn't just addiction. I think it's a symptom overall of a victim mentality where things are done _to_ you and it's just not your fault. "I can't quit because it has control of me." Etc. etc. Anyone can quit. It just takes being ready. No amount of meds, rehab or pleas from loved ones can make it happen. It happens internally.

But to say all addicts are weak and should be shunned is incorrect.


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## GTGallop

Meangreen said:


> Well to add fuel to the fire I think addiction and mental illness is a good prepping topic because like in the book, "One Second After" The addicts and psychos become everyone's problems because they can no longer get their fixes or medication and also will be released en mass from the penitentiaries and hospitals.


Fair enough. And don't forget to consider all of the new addicts that can't handle the SHTF stresses. People will turn quick to booze and other outlets, outlets that will dry up within a few weeks. It is absolutely a necessary discussion and how will you handle an addict in your camp. The truth is that no two situations are the same. You may have someone here that turned their life around and is the back bone of strength in your team and you may have some one who has never touched illegal drugs that flips out and starts chain snorting heroine. One poses a risk and the other one doesn't. The next question is what tools do you have to deal with that risk and how risk averse are you?


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## PrepConsultant

I am very impressed at how this thread is turning out. On most other boards it would be a cussing match between members and all of the troll would be fueling the fire...


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## jimb1972

GTGallop said:


> Fair enough. And don't forget to consider all of the new addicts that can't handle the SHTF stresses. People will turn quick to booze and other outlets, outlets that will dry up within a few weeks. It is absolutely a necessary discussion and how will you handle an addict in your camp. The truth is that no two situations are the same. You may have someone here that turned their life around and is the back bone of strength in your team and you may have some one who has never touched illegal drugs that flips out and starts chain snorting heroine. One poses a risk and the other one doesn't. The next question is what tools do you have to deal with that risk and how risk averse are you?


I am a bit curious about what would happen if the supply of psychotropic drugs dried up. How would people who have spent years on drugs like wellebutrin and paxil react to their sudden absence?


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## PaulS

The common side effects of the sudden removal of anti-depressants is violent suicidal or homicidal behavior. I don't want to see it unless it is in another country and even then it could affect us here.


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## PrepConsultant

Can you just imagine if there were an instant cutoff of drugs like this. Plus all of the recreational drugs. People would be going thru withdrawls and doing whatever they could to get their next fix.. On top of the anti depressants and anti psychotic ones.. It would be a ****in madhouse!!


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## MrsInor

One nice thing about Inor and I sharing the prepper hobby, is that we discuss a lot of subjects like this one. We have a few members in our family that rely on drugs that will no longer be available in a shtf world. Some of the meds I think I can come close to with herbal remedies but definitely not all. 
What is the solution to having, say, a schizophrenic in your group that no longer has access to stabilizing drugs? How safe is it with loaded guns around?
What is the solution to someone on antidepressants?
Could you refuse to have a parent in your group because they "might" become instable? Or a younger child?
Interesting discussion.


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## Slippy

I think I may be addicted to this website! 

Seriously though, I never smoked or did drugs but drinking came easy to me. I have a huge tolerance which is a blessing and a curse some say. As a Christian and a man of free will I enjoy adult beverages quite often and do not think anything is wrong with alcohol in my life. I have never been out of work and always have provided for my family. I spent 20 years with a large company and made dang sure that if the guys had some drinks at a meeting that I was responsible that they were safe. Rest assured that I was also the first one at the meeting the next day. Hangovers were not an option. 

Today, I run a company where social drinking and entertaining is quite the norm. Most of my life I did very well in sports as well as stayed... until recently  ... good shape. Drinking and driving is a huge no-no and I recognize that and make appropriate plans, taxis, shuttles when on business or just stay home or walking. I know alcohol is not good for me but I also know that a soda isn't either and I've seen people down 10-12 sodas in a day just as I've seen people drink 10-12 beers. 

Whats my point? Well we all have seen that drunk that does something stupid with a lampshade at a party, or the drunk who dies at 35 years old of liver damage, or the 95 year old man who smoked and drank everyday, or the homeless person who lost everything due to alcohol. I guess my point is that there are many factors that steer our lives in one direction or another. Some more than others. 

Do I call it a crutch or am I weak because I drink? I don't think so. Some might call me an alcoholic if they counted the number of beers that I drank at Bristol TN NASCAR race or some might not think that I had any at all if they just saw me there. The way I look at it I'm a human being, a sinner and someone who loves his wife and is saved by the Grace of God. Judge me or not, I don't care but I assure you that if you see me with a lampshade at a party...well that's a different thread.


As a side note as much as I enjoy a drink I just realized that I do not have any alcohol as part of my preps...its never crossed my mind.


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## Inor

PrepConsultant said:


> I am very impressed at how this thread is turning out. On most other boards it would be a cussing match between members and all of the troll would be fueling the fire...


That's because we're all a bunch of old bastards. It is too much work to fight over stupid stuff.


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## rickkyw1720pf

As hard as it may sound if it is TEOTWAWKI people with addictions will just have to worry about it themselves and I would guess many when confronted with a do or die situation will come through ok.


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## Denton

Wow.

I never considered myself as weak, just incredibly stupid. I see a difference.:-(


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## Meangreen

I could imagine that many addicts would turn to cheaper more available drugs like what we are seeing popping up in the US like "crocodile" or the border drugs like huffing and meth. Whole gangs could be created with the intention of raiding pharmacies and creating a black market for prescription drugs. When the economy gets bad the alcohol and drug abuse goes thru the roof. What we are seeing down here on the border is very little illegal entry from seasonal workers but drug seizures are at an all time high (no pun intended).


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## PalmettoTree

jimb1972 said:


> I could make the same statement about being defective regarding arrogant assholes. Abrasive, destructive of meaningful relationships, frequently everything is about them, and what they believe, and how they feel. My father was an alcoholic, never went to meetings, never beat his children, went to work everyday and supported his family. He died from liver failure at 52, but while alive he was reliable as a Swiss watch even though He had to go out to his truck at lunch every day for a drink so he could function through the rest of the day. I would guess you have an addict in your life and you know in your heart that some of the responsibility for their addiction is yours.


I'm sorry your father did not even love his own life more than the bottle. I'm glad you can see the good in your father. This is not about denying the good that is in almost everyone. This is about facing the truth about addicts. No, an addicts responsibility is theirs and theirs alone.


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## dannydefense

What are you addicted to PalmettoTree?

Everyone has their vices, after all.


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## rickkyw1720pf

I would guess after several months many of the drugs would start drying up with out a steady supply of chemicals. Plus the fact that what is left of society will probably not tolerate stealing and such since there wouldn't be any prisons or jails to hold people.


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## PalmettoTree

Addicts quit for one reason to save their own life. Many do not consider their life is worth saving and die of over or continued use.

Many addicts will give different reasons. So will love ones but those are just stories. Imaginative tails told to justify the past. Yarns spun to tell at social gatherings.

When all is stripped away, addicts are profoundly defective people that cannot face life without their fix. A few when faced with their own death will love themselves enough to quit.


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## jesstheshow

Addiction is so strange and frustrating. My mother is an addict and I have tried pretty much every angle I can to help her to stop the addiction... I've given up, its tiring.


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## PaulS

There is nothing you can do to "help" your loved one stop an addiction. They have to get to the point where it no longer serves them as well as living life does. Typically they have to lose everything that is important to them - but who knows what that is...

My ex-wife lost her kids, grand kids, her home before she found someone who would enable her to continue her drugging. To be honest at this point in her life I don't think she is emotionally equipped to be off her drugs. She hasn't felt life for 45 or more years. Emotionally she is about 13. When her present husband dies I would think that she will die from an overdose soon after.


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## jimb1972

PalmettoTree said:


> Addicts quit for one reason to save their own life. Many do not consider their life is worth saving and die of over or continued use.
> 
> Many addicts will give different reasons. So will love ones but those are just stories. Imaginative tails told to justify the past. Yarns spun to tell at social gatherings.
> 
> When all is stripped away, addicts are profoundly defective people that cannot face life without their fix. A few when faced with their own death will love themselves enough to quit.


Everyone is defective in some way, some realize their shortcomings and others are blissfully unaware of their own imperfections.


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## Meangreen

Denial isn't just a river in Africa. Remember your good enough, smart enough, and gosh darn it people like you!


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## Denton

Palmetto, I don't know what you are going through, but I can assure you that all addicts are not the same and aren't as cookie-cutter as you'd paint them. They don't all start out in the same manner, but most start out not understanding what an addiction is until they are caught. Once caught, though, not all have the same level of addiction, nor are they all in the same mental and emotional position. I've lost friends to addictions, and I have watched friends overcome. I've done what I could with both groups, but the battle has always been their own. 

Now, the real strength is displayed after sobriety has been established; the strength to not go back.


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## PalmettoTree

dannydefense said:


> What are you addicted to PalmettoTree?
> 
> Everyone has their vices, after all.


Addiction is not a vice.

I am addicted to nothing. We all have things that are self-indulgences. These are not obsession compulsions. They do not control our lives. It does not bother me that you disagree with me. It is of great concern to me that you believe addiction is as trivial as a vice. This could be very dangerous for you and yours should you become involved with an addict.

Be careful and just keep your mind alert to what I have said.


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## dannydefense

PalmettoTree said:


> I am addicted to nothing.


Classic denial.


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## Meangreen

dannydefense said:


> Classic denial.


and that's not a river in Africa!


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## bigdogbuc

dannydefense said:


> Classic denial.


Holy Shit Double D...that was funny. Between you and MG, I can't take things too seriously.

I'm addicted to booty, and I'm okay with it. As a matter of fact, I'm probably the happiest, most relaxed addict up in this bitch. I am proud to be a weak, defective loser!!!! ::clapping::


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## GTGallop

jimb1972 said:


> Everyone is defective in some way, some realize their shortcomings and others are blissfully unaware of their own imperfections.


Half-baked cookies in the oven (cookies in the oven)
Half-baked people on the bus (people on the bus)
There's a little bit of fruitcake left in everyone of us...


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## PalmettoTree

Denton said:


> Palmetto, I don't know what you are going through, but I can assure you that all addicts are not the same and aren't as cookie-cutter as you'd paint them. They don't all start out in the same manner, but most start out not understanding what an addiction is until they are caught. Once caught, though, not all have the same level of addiction, nor are they all in the same mental and emotional position. I've lost friends to addictions, and I have watched friends overcome. I've done what I could with both groups, but the battle has always been their own.
> Now, the real strength is displayed after sobriety has been established; the strength to not go back.


Addicts are people I know this. No two people are alike. I know this also. But in the same way right handed people are alike in an analogous way. All addicts are both different and the same just like the way right handed people are both different and the same.

All of the things you listed are accurate. This does nothing to dispute the fact that all addicts are profoundly weak and defective.


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## inceptor

When this thread started, I figured you had an issue you needed to rant about. Been there so I figured it was ok. Once the rant was over, things would be fine. So I was wrong. 

You can't just believe that blanket statements cover everything or everyone. All humans are flawed (myself excluded of course) and none are perfect by any stretch of the imagination. All humans are weak and defective period. Weak in that we each have certain temptations we give into and/or have a very hard time resisting. Defective in that we can never reach perfection. 

Are you telling me you are above all that?


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## PalmettoTree

Now a word to all you love ones of addicts. There is a propaganda tool used by the addiction recovery industry that labels you as enablers: ENABLERS

Wives and husbands' mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters even children are told early on that they are enablers. They tell you this because it is you that attempt in vainly to get help for addicts. As long as the industry has you believing you are in any way responsible you will find the money for treatment.

Believe this: The only treatment that has a chance of working is treatment sought by the addict. Why because it was their decision to start with an addictive substance. It is their decision to continue use every time they use. Only when and that is an if when the addict wants to stop they will seek help and it will not include you.

You are not an enabler just because you take your marriage vows seriously. You are not an enabler if you have chosen to do all you can for the addict. You are just misguided with honorable intentions. When it comes to addiction it is a one person cause and it is a one person solution. Those addicts that find their way clear of their substance remain weak and defective. If you look carefully you will see the substitution. Be grateful the addict's life was saved and the pain they cause is less but never expect the addict to be anything more than a profoundly weak and defective person.


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## kevincali

Everyone probably gonna hate me after this. 

Sometimes I do wish I could just sit around and smoke weed all day. 

Wake and bake. No responsibilities. No reason to be sober. Pig out, smoke some more, pig out, smoke some more, and pass out. Wake up the next day, and do it all over again. 

Sometimes life gets so overwhelming, I wish I could roll a fattie and take a break from reality. I stopped smoking years ago. Last thanksgiving (2012), I rolled a fattie with my ex FIL. I hadn't smoked in YEARS. I was up at 4:20 am ready to wake and bake. 

Old habits die hard. 


But, I don't smoke anymore. I don't because I will take it too far and yes it will take over my life. Not because I'm weak, but because I would need it to function. I still have sleep issues. When I enjoyed the greenery, I would go to sleep early, and wake up well rested and get ready for work. No wake and bake. No high at work. Just at home. 

But that's just weed. Have I experimented with others? I'd be lying if I said I didn't. But I got it out of my system early. 

My friend was a straight edge in high school. My brother died when I was 10, and I started smoking bud and drinking about 11 years old, continued through high school. I was low key, never in trouble except knives at school and once for smoking cigs. 

So my buddy the straight edge, gets out of high school, and goes on a drinking binge. Can't drink enough. Meanwhile, I'm over it. I've moved on. The smell of bud makes me sick to my stomach anymore. I start getting a headache at the smell of stale smoke. 

Like I said. If I COULD, I WOULD do it all day. But I have responsibilities. I stay sober because I am looking for work. I do not want to finally get a job offer and fail a drug screen. Not worth it. 


Sorry if I stepped on toes. Sorry if I offended anyone that does enjoy the greens. I don't hate anyone that does, just not for me. And no I'm not a straight edge


----------



## PalmettoTree

inceptor said:


> When this thread started, I figured you had an issue you needed to rant about. Been there so I figured it was ok. Once the rant was over, things would be fine. So I was wrong.
> 
> You can't just believe that blanket statements cover everything or everyone. All humans are flawed (myself excluded of course) and none are perfect by any stretch of the imagination. All humans are weak and defective period. Weak in that we each have certain temptations we give into and/or have a very hard time resisting. Defective in that we can never reach perfection.
> 
> Are you telling me you are above all that?


Yes no one is perfect but most of us fall within the normal bell curve. I have never disputed that fact. My point is addicts fall in a particular subset of human kind. They are beyond help of any kind except self help. It is important that some one point this out to the love ones of addicts.

Addicts do a lot of unrepairable destruction to others. Why so many are like you and dismiss addicts as just another shortcoming like tardiness I do not understand.

If you are not being hurt by an addict I can care less that you think I am wrong.


----------



## MrsInor

Just out of curiosity, what other human subsets do you consider defective?


----------



## Meangreen

Well if I said I was an angel I would be a liar. I grew up a San Diego surfer in a city that was beside the point. (SD people will get that) I got in trouble as a young 17 year old and lucky for me when I was standing in front of the Judge, I had a USMC recruiter standing behind me. Maybe if I didn't make poor decisions I would have made something of myself instead of a federal agent working for Y'all. I deal with drug addicts on a daily basis and I have to agree with Palmettotree that addicts are weak and some people just suck at life. Drug addicts and career criminals seem to have the same problem, need instant gratification and everything is someone else's fault. I agree with Kevincali I would love to hang out and party but I don't want to suck at life. I can see past today and know what I want for my future and my families future. Addicts even before their addiction cannot see past today and see that what you do today has an effect on the outcome of tomorrow. 
To tell you the truth I would love to pour poison into the cocaine and let it get delivered. I would love to take a ball pin hammer to the forehead of the addicts that sit in front of me in the interview room. But the reality I might as well as do the same to myself because I'm no better. I was going down that road but whatever it was I made the decision that that was not the road for me.


----------



## Inor

PalmettoTree said:


> Yes no one is perfect but most of us fall within the normal bell curve. I have never disputed that fact. My point is addicts fall in a particular subset of human kind. They are beyond help of any kind except self help. It is important that some one point this out to the love ones of addicts.
> 
> Addicts do a lot of unrepairable destruction to others. Why so many are like you and dismiss addicts as just another shortcoming like tardiness I do not understand.
> 
> If you are not being hurt by an addict I can care less that you think I am wrong.


But you have already stated, even if the seek self-help they are still "defective" and implied they should not be trusted.

So I will double down on wife's question... Both of us wear glasses. I wear bifocals, she wears trifocals. We are both blind as a bat without them. So, by your logic we are defective; I accept that. Are we defective enough that you should have nothing to do with us? Or are we just defective enough that we should be the worker class? Or maybe we are so defective we should be shot on sight. What is it?


----------



## Meangreen

Inor said:


> But you have already stated, even if the seek self-help they are still "defective" and implied they should not be trusted.
> 
> So I will double down on wife's question... Both of us wear glasses. I wear bifocals, she wears trifocals. We are both blind as a bat without them. So, by your logic we are defective; I accept that. Are we defective enough that you should have nothing to do with us? Or are we just defective enough that we should be the worker class? Or maybe we are so defective we should be shot on sight. What is it?


Oh, no matter what remember I love you both, you four eyed little freaks!


----------



## Inor

Meangreen said:


> Well if I said I was an angel I would be a liar. I grew up a San Diego surfer in a city that was beside the point. (SD people will get that) I got in trouble as a young 17 year old and lucky for me when I was standing in front of the Judge, I had a USMC recruiter standing behind me. Maybe if I didn't make poor decisions I would have made something of myself instead of a federal agent working for Y'all. I deal with drug addicts on a daily basis and I have to agree with Palmettotree that addicts are weak and some people just suck at life. Drug addicts and career criminals seem to have the same problem, need instant gratification and everything is someone else's fault. I agree with Kevincali I would love to hang out and party but I don't want to suck at life. I can see past today and know what I want for my future and my families future. Addicts even before their addiction cannot see past today and see that what you do today has an effect on the outcome of tomorrow.
> To tell you the truth I would love to pour poison into the cocaine and let it get delivered. I would love to take a ball pin hammer to the forehead of the addicts that sit in front of me in the interview room. But the reality I might as well as do the same to myself because I'm no better. I was going down that road but whatever it was I made the decision that that was not the road for me.


I agree with you on putting poison into the cocaine and letting it get delivered. But I would I would also submit, there are two types of addicts: the guys that "dive" into it and the guys that "fall" into it. I also agree (surprisingly) with PalmettoTree that even the guys that fall into it are beyond help unless they help themselves. But for the ones that do claw themselves out, I have the utmost respect and am more than willing to accept them based on their current actions, not their past. For the guys that "dive" into it, a bullet through the skull is the most humane outcome.

But to put the guy that comes home from a war and puts himself to sleep with whiskey for a decade in the same category as you put the 21 year old meth-head from Tucson is a disservice. Just my opinion. And I am just a dumb computer dork, not dealing with this crap every day like you are.

BTW: I would not be nearly as pissed at my government if all federal agents were like you.


----------



## Rigged for Quiet

Palmetto mentioned enablers but I think a much more accurate term is support system. It's not that the people closest to addicts support or condone their actions, but rather that their loved ones and the people closest to them want to beleive it will get better. As a result a safe haven is falsely created.

Just as an addict must reach rock bottom, so must those who are closest to them. An addict will carpet bomb the lives of those who love them most. 

It was also mentioned that an addicts "obsession" is replaced by something else. I think this is why most success recovery programs are faith based, as as are programs for loved ones and children of addicts.

It's not easy to find peace after reaching the point when all you can do is let go, even if you know it's the only choice you have.


----------



## GTGallop

I'm clean and sober, always have been. All I do is the occasional social drink or three. Cigars once in a blue moon - usually around the camp fire. I'm the furthest thing from an addict, and I can tell you it has nothing to do with me being strong or defect free. Matter of fact, I'm weak as all hell. But I know this and that's why I never touched the other stuff. I'm certain I wouldn't have the resolve to quit. I believe in the "ounce of prevention" philosophy. I'm strong enough to stay off those chemicals - that's my ounce of prevention. I've seen the pound of cure that people have to get themselves right again and I know I don't have it. Kudos to you who have been to the other side and made it back. Welcome home - we are glad to have you.


----------



## inceptor

PalmettoTree said:


> Yes no one is perfect but most of us fall within the *normal bell curve*.


I can promise you I have never fallen into this category. I have never been accused of anything close to normal. Neither have I been addicted to anything but cigarettes. I still enjoy smoking.

Being normal has never been a goal for me. I refuse to be like the majority. Being part of the herd just makes me shudder. When I was young I became what they told me I was. That was not a nice person. About mid 20's I began to question many things. I moved to Texas and changed my life. I am quite comfortable with who I am now. And that is no where close to the "norm".

You can keep normal, I want no part of it.


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## rice paddy daddy

PalmettoTree said:


> Believe this: The only treatment that has a chance of working is treatment sought by the addict. Why because it was their decision to start with an addictive substance. It is their decision to continue use every time they use. Only when and that is an if when the addict wants to stop they will seek help and it will not include you.
> 
> You are not an enabler just because you take your marriage vows seriously. You are not an enabler if you have chosen to do all you can for the addict. You are just misguided with honorable intentions. When it comes to addiction it is a one person cause and it is a one person solution. Those addicts that find their way clear of their substance remain weak and defective. If you look carefully you will see the substitution. Be grateful the addict's life was saved and the pain they cause is less but never expect the addict to be anything more than a profoundly weak and defective person.


Very interesting.


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## dannydefense

PalmettoTree said:


> Those addicts that find their way clear of their substance remain weak and defective. If you look carefully you will see the substitution. Be grateful the addict's life was saved and the pain they cause is less but never expect the addict to be anything more than a profoundly weak and defective person.


This sums up the kind of person you are Palmetto, and if you think you're so far above those addicts you best keep looking in the mirror.

Every person on this planet is blessed with one irrevocable quality; the ability to change.

Just as I suspect you're addicted to something and most of this tirade is nothing more than self loathing, I suspect you wouldn't recognize that quality if your life depended on it.

You can respond if you want to rebut, but you'll be on my ignore going forward so it will be for others if you do.


----------



## Meangreen

PalmettoTree said:


> Now a word to all you love ones of addicts. There is a propaganda tool used by the addiction recovery industry that labels you as enablers: ENABLERS
> 
> Wives and husbands' mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters even children are told early on that they are enablers. They tell you this because it is you that attempt in vainly to get help for addicts. As long as the industry has you believing you are in any way responsible you will find the money for treatment.
> 
> Believe this: The only treatment that has a chance of working is treatment sought by the addict. Why because it was their decision to start with an addictive substance. It is their decision to continue use every time they use. Only when and that is an if when the addict wants to stop they will seek help and it will not include you.
> 
> You are not an enabler just because you take your marriage vows seriously. You are not an enabler if you have chosen to do all you can for the addict. You are just misguided with honorable intentions. When it comes to addiction it is a one person cause and it is a one person solution. Those addicts that find their way clear of their substance remain weak and defective. If you look carefully you will see the substitution. Be grateful the addict's life was saved and the pain they cause is less but never expect the addict to be anything more than a profoundly weak and defective person.


I have to agree that the only rehab or treatment that will work is when the addict wants to stop. All the court ordered treatment never seems to work but when the person hits rock bottom and decides it's time, I think they are the ones that make it.


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## dannydefense

Meangreen said:


> I have to agree that the only rehab or treatment that will work is when the addict wants to stop. All the court ordered treatment never seems to work but when the person hits rock bottom and decides it's time, I think they are the ones that make it.


That's the only thing he says which has any footing in reality. People like Dr. Phil know this too, but they're in the business of making money off of other peoples misfortune so they do their best to convince you it isn't true. If you listened to anyone famous with a Ph.D you'd think the only hope for anyone was from within the confines of a $10,000 a month treatment program. Rehab is bullshit. It's a get out of jail free card for some druggies (who I'll separate from addicts, considering you can be addicted to anything from the internet to coffee) and a vacation for the more popular.

The only person who can change an addiction is the person who is addicted. The only time is when they want to, and often times with drug addicts or gambling addicts that means after hitting rock bottom. Some are strong enough to see bottom coming and change it in advance. I've known people on every end of that spectrum, which is why it pisses me off to hear some know it all talking out his ass. Some of those who made changes in their lives are much more productive members of society than people I've met who have led perfectly blessed lives.


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## rice paddy daddy

Alcoholics Anonymous is the only program proven to work.
And it's free.
For those who want it.
Drug users are harder to reach than alcoholics because most believe they don't have a problem.


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## roy

Adiction is a weakness unless you are an addict or someone who can fix addiction for money and then it is a disease.


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## rice paddy daddy

roy said:


> Adiction is a weakness unless you are an addict or someone who can fix addiction for money and then it is a disease.


Alcoholism was recognized as a disease by the AMA in 1954.
Where have you been?


----------



## kevincali

I wasn't going to share, but might as well. 

My mom is/was an addict. Same with my stepdad. They were living with me. Yes. In MY house. They were constantly fighting, arguing, my mom even once threw a fire extinguisher at my stepdad. I was there. I asked why did she throw that. Her answer "because it was within my reach. I already threw everything else."

Then my stepdad had taken an axe to the inside of my house. My stereo, my furniture, knocked my tv down and made a hole in my floor. 

I had enough. They had it good here. Now they live in a tiny tiny trailer out in the middle of BFE. Do they still use? Probably. I'd consider that rock bottom for myself. They might see it as luxury. If they want to change, its their call. 

And my POS uncle. Called my gramma this morning. My gramma JUST got paid and he called to borrow $250. I have mixed feelings. She has always been sending him money. He IS a tweeker. I called him on it, and he tried running me over with a car. I have no respect for this "man." He is living in a motel room. True, he hit a deer at 60mph. He got an insurance settlement. He bought a new car and his "wife" got back together with him. Now the money is supposedly gone and she kicked him out. He HAD hit rock bottom and had to live in the Nevada desert before. So being in a motel is no worse. 

I have mixed feelings. I DON'T want to send him money. (I have to go to the bank for my gramma and withdraw the money so she can mail it) but I DON'T want to upset my gramma. Yes my gramma is his enabler. He has been a druggie since childhood and at 15(?) was sent to rehab, where he got caught and kicked out for smuggling in drugs. 

Ugh. I'll be losing sleep over this and I don't want to 

I guess my main issue is I can ask my gramma for help. But I don't. I'm doing everything I can to be independent. I've gone hungry knowing I can just go to her house and eat. But I don't. I will NOT make my issues my grammas. They are mine to work out. Not her. So why does my uncle think its right to constantly ask for money? When he was in prison, she was sending him $50 a WEEK. That's a lot of money in prison. That's a lot of commissary and cigs. Prison wasn't a lesson for him. It was free room and board. :shakingmyhead:


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## jesstheshow

I have dealt with many addicts in my family. My family is mostly middle to lower income, and they still manage to be addicts and users. While I am still very young and I still have a lot to learn, I know that you cannot change a person, they have to want it.. If they do not want to change, its hopeless and heartbreaking.


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## PaulS

An enabler is a person that makes excuses for the addict, supports the addiction and not the recovery, and loves them but not enough to allow them to suffer the consequences of their actions.

I was married to an addict for 13 years. I wasn't even aware of the addiction until the last four years of our marriage. I was not an enabler. I didn't hide her addiction, and I did not knowingly support it. I told her that if her addiction ever affected my work, the home of our children or the quality of life that my kids and I had that she would be out. when that happened I filed for divorce and custody. I fought hard for custody and even brought the evidence of her addiction to court but the judge decided the kids were better off with her. So, I lost most of what made my life important to me. I visited my kids even after she moved them across the state until she decided that I "had to visit with her if I wanted to visit the kids. At that point I told the kids that I would pay to have them visit with me but that I would not subject myself to her manipulation. I tried to keep in touch with my children through letters and cards but they never got them so when they moved out of her house they were very confused about what happened. In the years that followed we have become as close or closer than we were before the divorce. WE get along well and do a lot of things together. They have remembered that I was the parent that was involve in their lives and know that their mother has not been involved - as my daughter so aptly puts it, "She was the absent mother." I tried to teach my children that there were two people living in their mother's body. The one in control was the addict and it was self-centered and unaware of the real world while their mother was in the background and under the control of the addict. Their mother was still an adolescent and did not know how to deal with adult matters because the addiction never allowed her to grow. They occasionally see their mother but it is always under duress and never a happy time. On the other hand we spend good times together and have monthly family dinners. I am involved with their kids and love them all. I see my ex wife a few times a year but I don't know who or what she is except that she still wants to be the center of attention and she usually shows up barely conscious and sometimes becomes unconscious (passing out) at the gathering. Her present husband makes excuses for her and then leaves. I like the guy, he has his own strength but I don't think he understands what he should do. Maybe he does but he gets something out of the "relationship" that makes it advantageous to let it continue. I don't know what that could be but I don't live there.

I have had other friends who have confronted their addiction and are decent people that I am proud to call friends. They are not weak or defective but they are and will always be "non-practicing" addicts. Once addicted all it takes is one misstep and the addiction is back in control. They know that and they fight it every day - that takes guts and determination and I am proud of them. To have someone say that they are defective and weak is an insult and ignorant.


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## kevincali

jesstheshow said:


> I have dealt with many addicts in my family. My family is mostly middle to lower income, and they still manage to be addicts and users. While I am still very young and I still have a lot to learn, I know that you cannot change a person, they have to want it.. If they do not want to change, its hopeless and heartbreaking.


I grew up poor. The drugs come free.

Need food? Sorry. Ain't got any. Here's a hit.

Sad but true.


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## roy

Bullshit. I never saw nobody givin' drugs away.


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## roy

rice paddy daddy said:


> Alcoholism was recognized as a disease by the AMA in 1954.
> Where have you been?


I think they recognized gluttony as a disease as well.


----------



## kevincali

roy said:


> Bullshit. I never saw nobody givin' drugs away.


Not pounds or kilos or whatever. Just a bowl here and there.

I must have had good druggie friends then. Everyone's experience is different


----------



## paraquack

My son couldn't hold a job to save his life. He managed to sponge off all his friends until they got tired of supporting his habits and kicked his a$$ to the curb. He simply moved on.

I'm still waiting for some links, etc. to show me the data you were talking about!


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## roy

kevincali said:


> Not pounds or kilos or whatever. Just a bowl here and there.
> 
> I must have had good druggie friends then. Everyone's experience is different


Moochin' off you friends is somethin' else. Dealers deal. No free samples.


----------



## Rob Roy

roy said:


> Moochin' off you friends is somethin' else. Dealers deal. No free samples.


misery loves company bro. 
Palmetto isn't the only one making false blanket statements.

[email protected] near all the drugs I did in my teen years were shoved in front of me with no expectations other than to join the party.

I applaud everyone here in keeping this conversation tethered to the Earth, but I'm gonna' have to take the low road and call a spade a shovel. Palmetto, you are a pompous @ss. I don't even care about the subject matter. You just sit there like some all knowing guru thinking you have the wisdom of the world trapped in your bubble-head, but nothing other than dribble and bubbles are rolling out of your mouth.

You have no substance to your theories and are showing signs of a brain-washed fascist who sees people in groups rather than individuals.

addicts; they're just people. Some are strong, some weak, all individuals.


----------



## Inor

Rob Roy said:


> misery loves company bro.
> Palmetto isn't the only one making false blanket statements.
> 
> [email protected] near all the drugs I did in my teen years were shoved in front of me with no expectations other than to join the party.
> 
> I applaud everyone here in keeping this conversation tethered to the Earth, but I'm gonna' have to take the low road and call a spade a shovel. Palmetto, you are a pompous @ss. I don't even care about the subject matter. You just sit there like some all knowing guru thinking you have the wisdom of the world trapped in your bubble-head, but nothing other than dribble and bubbles are rolling out of your mouth.
> 
> You have no substance to your theories and are showing signs of a brain-washed fascist who sees people in groups rather than individuals.
> 
> addicts; they're just people. Some are strong, some weak, all individuals.


Rob Roy - You are A-Ok! Just no bagpipes please! 

BTW: Thanks for all your work straightening out Mrs Inor's order! She (and consequently I) are very happy with the service you gave her. Plus she is the one you needed to impress as it is only my job to fill the checkbook. Her job is to empty it.


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## Rob Roy

Inor said:


> she is the one you needed to impress as it is only my job to fill the checkbook. Her job is to empty it.


Haha. I know the feeling, I really do.

(my pleasure, and thank you)


----------



## oldmurph58

PalmettoTree said:


> From time to time someone post that they or a love one is struggling because a family member is an addict. Here is all you need to know about such people. Alcohol, drugs, tobacco, gambling the addiction is irrelevant to understanding the addict.
> 
> Addicts are profoundly weak people. They cannot face life without a crutch. They are not sick. They do not have a disease or illness. They are defectively weak. They are the hatchling that is best pushed out of the nest. They are natures mistake not your mistake. The sooner you face this fact and remove yourself and any children the better you will be for it.


i think your thinking and arguement are weak


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## oldmurph58

Inor said:


> But you have already stated, even if the seek self-help they are still "defective" and implied they should not be trusted.
> 
> So I will double down on wife's question... Both of us wear glasses. I wear bifocals, she wears trifocals. We are both blind as a bat without them. So, by your logic we are defective; I accept that. Are we defective enough that you should have nothing to do with us? Or are we just defective enough that we should be the worker class? Or maybe we are so defective we should be shot on sight. What is it?


inor you and the wife dont want to have nothin to do woth him. my opinion is hes mentally ill, defective if you will


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## dannydefense

Haha thank you oldmurph... I actually found myself wondering the other day why I had Palmetto on ignore. Completely forgot about this holier than thou BS.


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## KYPrepper

I didn't even read any other posts, are you trying to troll on here? That's a ****ed up thing to say. My father struggled with alcoholism his whole adult life until it killed him at 56 years old in 2005. Oh and me? yes, I'm a recovering addicy myself. and you sir? have no ****ing clue what you are talking about. I don't act like a tough guy especially on the internet, but come on down to Kentucky and this 6'2 225 lb ex "dope fiend" will show you just how weak the life I've had so far has made me. It certainly has nothing to do with physical or mental weakness, millions of things account for one's addiction everyone has their story. Personally, in my own life, I've known some addicts that were the strongest people I have ever met in my life. Once an addict always an addict, it's a serious struggle every day that you apparently have no idea about. End rant. Sorry guys.


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## Maxxdad

I've read this thread with interest.
A while back while teaching a small Concealed Carry Course we came to the topic of Prepping and the SHTF scenario. One of the ladies said to her husband "Well, looks like you would have to quit smoking". I thought about that for a bit and told them that whatever high stress situation has caused the SHTF, it would be exactly the wrong time to go through any type of withdrawal. Preppers who have issues with drugs, alcohol, caffeine (me) or whatever need to plan that addiction INTO their prepping. Your mind will already be compromised to some extent by the stress of the situation and you will crave normalcy. 

And it's not just the "Habits", it's medications as well. What happens when you can't hit the pharmacy for your lipitor, BP meds etc. etc. And all those folks who are on Psych meds that help them deal?

Lastly a real world example. The first Gulf War. You would be floored by the number of senior SNCO's and Officers who had to be shipped back to the world because Alcohol was not available. DT's in a combat zone...
Max


----------



## Denton

Seems people are taking personally the concept of being mentally weak. Sorry, but I agree with the notion wholeheartedly. I don't agree with the notion of tossing a weak person out of the nest, though, nor do I agree with the general concept of weakness being a defect that is set in stone and can't be overcome.

I was a hard drinking brawler in my army days. KY Prepper would have found me to be more than a mere handful in those days, even with his two inch and 75 pound advantage. Matter of fact, I loved fighting out of my class as my lousy way of thinking saw big guys as arrogant apes who lorded their size over us smaller guys. I never lost a brawl, but nowadays I know I never truly won. Excuses for my drunken behavior rolled off my stupid tongue with the greatest of ease. Thankfully, I gained the attention of a first sergeant who was former special forces who viewed such behavior as an unacceptable weakness and put a stop to it. Bruises, cuts and hangovers on one of of NCOs made his overall fighting force weaker, therefore unacceptable. I was weak, and my weakness made his "community" weak, and he knew that "peer pressure" was the way to cure that weakness.

Weakness is a result of a lack of discipline, not some genetic flaw. Those of us who have come to realize a weakness, regardless of the particular weakness, have one of two ways of dealing with it. We can acknowledge the weakness and strengthen ourselves, or we can rationalize and ignore it. In today's degenerated society, weaknesses are called diseases and the weak are handled as if they are some sort of cripple or member of some protected minority. This is not only destructive to the individual, but it is destructive to the community as a whole.

Our vices are crutches. Our crutches are not so much as the problem as is the underlying weakness, and disciplining our minds is the cure. Of course, in a society that has an excuse for everything under the sun and a rationalization as to why it is not our fault, people find it easier to play the victim rather than exercising the mind. When the S hits the Fan, however, there will be no excuses that will help those who are not disciplined. My way of thinking causes me to believe that our society has been weakened for a reason. Weak people are easier to lead and control than are the strong minded, strong willed people.


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## Arizona Infidel

Damn how did I miss this one. LOL. 
Hey I think the OP has a point to a degree, but then I think he takes it a bit to far. I also think some of you are taking his comments to personally. I also think those of you that pointed out he is a dick are completely right. And RobRoy hit the nail on the head and countersunk that bitch. He is indeed a fascist. And that conclusion didn't come from this thread.


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## Denton

Arizona Infidel said:


> Damn how did I miss this one. LOL.
> Hey I think the OP has a point to a degree, but then I think he takes it a bit to far. I also think some of you are taking his comments to personally. I also think those of you that pointed out he is a dick are completely right. And RobRoy hit the nail on the head and countersunk that bitch. He is indeed a fascist. And that conclusion didn't come from this thread.


Crap, I cannot help but ask, what am I? :-o


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## ApexPredator

Ow my here we go.

I've read this entire post I think I get what palmetto is trying to say.

Decision making process I've seen it at work and DUI's the army is hitting DUIs hard and many of the people getting them are pretty upset about it that its ruined their career etc etc.
I support that because It goes back to your thought processes which no one can define except based on your actions. Those actions imply that you are self centered and irresponsible given just a tiny relaxation in your inhibitions ie your fear of the law etc. This is a poor character trait in a soldier or anyone for that matter but especially someone you are either liable for or dependent on. It is not necessarily an insurmountable event however much like a credit score it will take a long time to reestablish yourself and it will always be something that lingers in the back of ones mind. I believe palmetto is trying to say pretty much the same thing with a bit more finality.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

Denton said:


> Crap, I cannot help but ask, what am I? :-o


I don't get your question.


----------



## Denton

Arizona Infidel said:


> I don't get your question.


Just messin' with sasquatch, is all. You shared your possibly accurate opinion about a couple other members, and was wondering about your opinion of me. Just having a bit of fun.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

Denton said:


> Just messin' with sasquatch, is all. You shared your possibly accurate opinion about a couple other members, and was wondering about your opinion of me. Just having a bit of fun.


You'll have to answer that one for yourself. 
Addiction is a strange thing I think. I think most everyone probably has addictive tendencies. Don't you? I think even Palmetto has addictive tendencies. Some people decide to channel those addictive tendencies into constructive things, while some become destructive. How can you be a fascist arrogant self centered dickhead who thinks he has the right to dictate to others if you don't have addictive tendencies? 
Some people let their addiction rule their lives with destructive behavior, others may become preppers hoarding enough food to feed an army for a hundred years. But only the drug addict, or the gambler, or the alchoholic is seen as an addict.


----------



## Denton

Arizona Infidel said:


> You'll have to answer that one for yourself.
> Addiction is a strange thing I think. I think most everyone probably has addictive tendencies. Don't you? I think even Palmetto has addictive tendencies. Some people decide to channel those addictive tendencies into constructive things, while some become destructive. How can you be a fascist arrogant self centered dickhead who thinks he has the right to dictate to others if you don't have addictive tendencies?
> Some people let their addiction rule their lives with destructive behavior, others may become preppers hoarding enough food to feed an army for a hundred years. But only the drug addict, or the gambler, or the alchoholic is seen as an addict.


Yup. It all comes down to discipline.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

Yes. Discipline. 
Now I aim just going to think out loud for a bit. Musings if you will. So nobody take offense at what I post. 
An addict addicted to destructive behavior that focuses the addictive tendency tword constructive behavior turns out to be a productive member of society. They are looked at as a workaholic, which can create problems, but is not viewed as being bad in our society. Or they can focus on their family, then they are viewed as being over protective, but nothing wrong with that. Etc. etc. But if the addict turns to Aa or some other treatment program, aren't they in effect replacing the destructive addiction with an addiction to AA and aren't they in effect continuing to wallow in the destructive addiction by proxy?


----------



## Arizona Infidel

Also, I think some addicts are self destructive and they will replace one destructive addiction with another. Ie. An alchoholic that becomes a sex addict that participates in dangerous activities, or a drug addict that becomes a gambler. This is a form of addiction that is really something else isn't it? Like the cutter that winds up committing suicide. I would say that is the defect the OP is trying to point out in his arrogant judgemental post. 
Again these are just musings.


----------



## Denton

Good musing, AI. As far as alcohol abuse, this is what I learned.

Not all problem drinkers are alcoholics. A problem drinker can exercise normal discipline to rein in the problem, if they want. An alcoholic is a different animal. In this case, there is a physiological change in the brain, and this change causes the alcoholic to go "all-in" whenever he has just one drink. That one drink causes the body to take over and demand the man to continue until he can get no more. It goes beyond lack of discipline, but the inability to stop. Furthermore, once someone becomes an alcoholic, any offspring that comes after the change is already predisposed to becoming an alcoholic. In other words, it doesn't take as many party nights to cause the offspring to become an alcoholic.

Just a little musing, too. Are meetings and sponsors a form of molly-coddling, or is it a form of peer-pressure among those who are struggling, together?


----------



## BlackDog

Arizona Infidel said:


> But if the addict turns to Aa or some other treatment program, aren't they in effect replacing the destructive addiction with an addiction to AA and aren't they in effect continuing to wallow in the destructive addiction by proxy?


Not at all. AA is not a cult or a secret society unto itself and there is nothing destructive about it. AA is not a program but instead suggests a program of recovery that has proven successful for nearly 80 years. It is not about trading one addiction for another. It is about recognizing our faults, taking responsibility for them and taking steps toward improvement and growth.

By and large, most people who find recovery through the AA fellowship do indeed become productive members of society, loved and respected by their families, valuable assets their employers. Some go beyond and become business and/or community leaders, just as some who never had a substance abuse problem do.

I understand that you do not understand. There is no reason you would if it wasn't something you needed. You might want to be grateful for that.


----------



## Coppertop

I don't even know what to say about this thread. The OP makes me upset. So here are my ramblings. 

I drank pretty heavy for a number of years and have been sober for just over a year. I don't think that an addiction is a weakness or a defect. Some of the most productive and some of the best people I know have a drinking issue. I also know of a person who is on anti depressants that I love very much and do not think her taking them is a sign of weakness. 

I do feel that there are reasons people "indulge" to excess. I do know that the first month of being sober was by far the hardest but once I got some help with understanding why/what I was drowning, it got easier (not easy but easier). 

Saying that I'm weak or defective because I found a way to deal with things that were bugging me is BS. I will acknowledge that what I was doing may not have been the best route. It was the route I knew and grew up with (family and family friends). As with most addictions it started out simple. A little here and there, made me feel better, so more and more to find that feel better spot. I didn't realize it was bad for many many years. All my life, I have held down very good jobs being responsible for multi-millions of dollars worth of equipment and oilwells. During this time I bought and sold homes, have a very good credit rating ( don't buy what I can't afford and pay my bills). 

I just don't understand that I have ever been weak or defective. And yes, I do take that accusation very personally. 

Don't know if this makes sense to anyone but me and thank you for letting me vent. 
Shane


----------



## rice paddy daddy

BlackDog said:


> Not at all. AA is not a cult or a secret society unto itself and there is nothing destructive about it. AA is not a program but instead suggests a program of recovery that has proven successful for nearly 80 years. It is not about trading one addiction for another. It is about recognizing our faults, taking responsibility for them and taking steps toward improvement and growth.
> 
> By and large, most people who find recovery through the AA fellowship do indeed become productive members of society, loved and respected by their families, valuable assets their employers. Some go beyond and become business and/or community leaders, just as some who never had a substance abuse problem do.
> 
> I understand that you do not understand. There is no reason you would if it wasn't something you needed. You might want to be grateful for that.


Very well put, my friend.
Especialy your last line.
If you are ever passing through Folkston, Georgia I would like to buy you a cup of coffee at the Okefenoke Restaurant.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

BlackDog said:


> Not at all. AA is not a cult or a secret society unto itself and there is nothing destructive about it. AA is not a program but instead suggests a program of recovery that has proven successful for nearly 80 years. It is not about trading one addiction for another. It is about recognizing our faults, taking responsibility for them and taking steps toward improvement and growth.
> 
> By and large, most people who find recovery through the AA fellowship do indeed become productive members of society, loved and respected by their families, valuable assets their employers. Some go beyond and become business and/or community leaders, just as some who never had a substance abuse problem do.
> 
> I understand that you do not understand. There is no reason you would if it wasn't something you needed. You might want to be grateful for that.


I never said it was a cult, secret society, nor did I say it was destructive. You are trying to take offense at what I said, and you are trying to defend yourself. Don't do that. If you reread the beginning of that post I said don't take any offense at what I was saying.


----------



## BlackDog

Arizona Infidel said:


> I never said it was a cult, secret society, nor did I say it was destructive. You are trying to take offense at what I said, and you are trying to defend yourself. Don't do that. If you reread the beginning of that post I said don't take any offense at what I was saying.


Lighten up, Frances. In your musings you wondered if involvement in AA might cause one to "continue to wallow in destructive behavior" even if by proxy. That implies a misunderstanding of what AA and recovery through AA are. "Musing" that someone is addicted to an organization or group of people that may cause them to continue to "wallow" does imply that you see it as a cult-like attraction.

I was not offended in the least by your post so have no reason to defend myself. It was simply obvious that you don't have knowledge of what AA is or how it works. I was simply trying to give you some perspective from someone who's been there.


----------



## inceptor

Inor said:


> But you have already stated, even if the seek self-help they are still "defective" and implied they should not be trusted.
> 
> So I will double down on wife's question... Both of us wear glasses. I wear bifocals, she wears trifocals. We are both blind as a bat without them. So, by your logic we are defective; I accept that. Are we defective enough that you should have nothing to do with us? Or are we just defective enough that we should be the worker class? Or maybe we are so defective we should be shot on sight. What is it?


I don't know how I missed this earlier but defective? Not F*in chance. You both are 1st rate in my book. ::clapping::


----------



## Inor

inceptor said:


> I don't know how I missed this earlier but defective? Not F*in chance. You both are 1st rate in my book. ::clapping::


Thanks Inceptor! Back at ya.


----------



## inceptor

Inor said:


> Thanks Inceptor! Back at ya.


Just tellin the truth. Y'all are good people.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

BlackDog said:


> Lighten up, Frances. In your musings you wondered if involvement in AA might cause one to "continue to wallow in destructive behavior" even if by proxy. That implies a misunderstanding of what AA and recovery through AA are. "Musing" that someone is addicted to an organization or group of people that may cause them to continue to "wallow" does imply that you see it as a cult-like attraction.
> 
> I was not offended in the least by your post so have no reason to defend myself. It was simply obvious that you don't have knowledge of what AA is or how it works. I was simply trying to give you some perspective from someone who's been there.


i believe your the one that needs to lighten up friend.


----------



## Denton

You're. You are the one...

He doesn't own it, you are attempting to make a contraction.

This distraction brought to you by the Grammar Nazi.


----------



## Smitty901

Doctor Bob and bill came into the light and because of that many others got another chance


----------



## BlackDog

Arizona Infidel said:


> i believe your the one that needs to lighten up friend.


I guess you won't believe that I'm not offended or being defensive. Really, I was just trying to offer some perspective and meant no offense. Demeanor can be hard to convey over the innerwebs. 
I'm good. You good?


----------



## dannydefense

Denton said:


> Seems people are taking personally the concept of being mentally weak.


Au contraire, I think they're taking offense to the idea that people with a weakness such as addiction are permanently damaged. Of course it's a weakness, no argument there. However people who are broken have every ability to fix themselves, with or without help, if they so make the choice. Some of the people I know who have done this are much stronger people than those who have never dealt with such issues, and I would rather have them covering my ass long before I'd welcome Palmetto within 300 yards.


----------



## dannydefense

Inor said:


> Thanks Inceptor! Back at ya.


I kind of like you both too, but don't take that personally.


----------



## inceptor

Denton said:


> Seems people are taking personally the concept of being mentally weak. Sorry, but I agree with the notion wholeheartedly. I don't agree with the notion of tossing a weak person out of the nest, though, nor do I agree with the general concept of weakness being a defect that is set in stone and can't be overcome.


We are all born weak. What matters is how we handle it. Being human itself is a weakness. I can tell you that a defect that is set in stone can still be overcome and dealt with. It's all a matter of what YOU decide.

Everyone has an area of intolerance. This is one of mine. People are flawed period. Don't project your flaws on someone else to make them feel inferior. They are no better or worse than you.

Matthew 7:2 _For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?_ (NIV)

*This is directed at no one. *


----------



## Arizona Infidel

Denton said:


> You're. You are the one...
> 
> He doesn't own it, you are attempting to make a contraction.
> 
> This distraction brought to you by the Grammar Nazi.


Thanks for that :roll:


----------



## dannydefense

inceptor said:


> Everyone has an area of intolerance. This is one of mine. People are flawed period. *Don't project your flaws on someone else to make them feel inferior.* They are no better or worse than you.


Epic.


----------



## Denton

Arizona Infidel said:


> Thanks for that :roll:


I'm here for you, brother. ::clapping::


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## Inor

This whole thread started out as nothing but troll-bait. Now that Inceptor an Denton have finally brought some value with a couple of intelligent posts, can we please shoot the damn thread and be done with it?


----------



## Conundrum99

Those who think they can understand addiction who have not experienced this in there life can not speak to it. If you have not walked in a addicts shoe you can not know what there journey has been. I have been sober for 22 years, serviced my country, service my community with pride and my fellow man. I by no means consider myself weak or afflicted, only strong from the journey I have taken. 

Found the forum Blackdog.

Prepper and Oath keeper from West Virginia


----------



## dannydefense

Conundrum99 said:


> Those who think they can understand addiction who have not experienced this in there life can not speak to it. If you have not walked in a addicts shoe you can not know what there journey has been.


Whoah now, are you trying to say that Dr. Phil and all those youth counselors who are "just there to help" don't know shit about what they're talking about? Cause if you are, I agree with you.


----------



## Gunner's Mate

i have 935 days of sobriety they are just not all consecutive


----------



## BlackDog

Conundrum99 said:


> Found the forum Blackdog.
> 
> Prepper and Oath keeper from West Virginia


There goes the neighborhood.


----------



## inceptor

Conundrum99 said:


> Those who think they can understand addiction who have not experienced this in there life can not speak to it. If you have not walked in a addicts shoe you can not know what there journey has been. I have been sober for 22 years, serviced my country, service my community with pride and my fellow man. I by no means consider myself weak or afflicted, only strong from the journey I have taken.
> 
> *Found the forum* Blackdog.
> 
> Prepper and Oath keeper from West Virginia


Well then it's time to go here and introduce yourself. 

Introduce Yourself


----------



## PalmettoTree

I put this truth out once a year before the holidays and have not commented much since originally getting the thread started. Not only do I know that addicts are profoundly weak and defective people. I know those forced to live with the embarrassment, abuse, and neglect caused by addicts find strength and comfort in realizing they need not try to fix such people. (Note everyone that once used a substance even heavily is not an addict. Some here cannot understand the difference.) Unfortunately those that need to know this truth are usually too young to receive this message. I hope the adults reading this will use this truth to comfort and lighten the burden of children of these profoundly defective people. 

Addicts start substance abuse for many reasons. It is the continued use as a crutch to deal with or avoid all together difficulties of life that leads to addiction.

Propensities for addiction are passed from generation to generation. Unfortunately this profound weak defect results in a new generation of addicts. It can never be known why one child of an addict avoids addiction and another does not. Did the defect pass one by and not the other? Or did influences in one life make the child that becomes old aged with out becoming addicted find a strong positive influence. Maybe they just refused to give in to that profound defect of weakness that lives within them.

It does not matter here. I got my warning out last year and I will put it out again next year. If not here then some where.

Now a few words about AA. AA saves many many lives. It is the only alternative to drunkardness for many. The organization can be a binding force of happiness between the drunk and the person labeled "enabler." It is not for me to object to people finding happiness.

What it is not is a vehicle for undoing harm. It is not a method of sanctioning "amends." I have never seen one member accomplish that step or even try.

AA is a collection of profoundly weak and defective people that lean on each other. The steps back up and admit what I have written about addicts.

To those of you that through this hell have stuck by your addict do not let AA demean that courage and commitment to your wedding vows by calling you an, "enabler." If you do not want to argue the point in meetings, fine. But do not think that of yourselves.

I'm not sure if I'll bother to take on some of the personal attacks on me written here. But since I have at least for this one post re-entered the discussion I will state my position again: Addicts are profoundly weak and defective people that cannot face life without a crutch.


----------



## Inor

PalmettoTree said:


> I put this truth out once a year before the holidays and have not commented much since originally getting the thread started. Not only do I know that addicts are profoundly weak and defective people. I know those forced to live with the embarrassment, abuse, and neglect caused by addicts find strength and comfort in realizing they need not try to fix such people. (Note everyone that once used a substance even heavily is not an addict. Some here cannot understand the difference.) Unfortunately those that need to know this truth are usually too young to receive this message. I hope the adults reading this will use this truth to comfort and lighten the burden of children of these profoundly defective people.
> 
> Addicts start substance abuse for many reasons. It is the continued use as a crutch to deal with or avoid all together difficulties of life that leads to addiction.
> 
> Propensities for addiction are passed from generation to generation. Unfortunately this profound weak defect results in a new generation of addicts. It can never be known why one child of an addict avoids addiction and another does not. Did the defect pass one by and not the other? Or did influences in one life make the child that becomes old aged with out becoming addicted find a strong positive influence. Maybe they just refused to give in to that profound defect of weakness that lives within them.
> 
> It does not matter here. I got my warning out last year and I will put it out again next year. If not here then some where.
> 
> Now a few words about AA. AA saves many many lives. It is the only alternative to drunkardness for many. The organization can be a binding force of happiness between the drunk and the person labeled "enabler." It is not for me to object to people finding happiness.
> 
> What it is not is a vehicle for undoing harm. It is not a method of sanctioning "amends." I have never seen one member accomplish that step or even try.
> 
> AA is a collection of profoundly weak and defective people that lean on each other. The steps back up and admit what I have written about addicts.
> 
> To those of you that through this hell have stuck by your addict do not let AA demean that courage and commitment to your wedding vows by calling you an, "enabler." If you do not want to argue the point in meetings, fine. But do not think that of yourselves.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'll bother to take on some of the personal attacks on me written here. But since I have at least for this one post re-entered the discussion I will state my position again: Addicts are profoundly weak and defective people that cannot face life without a crutch.


Ya know... I was working up a profanity laden rant that was funny at the same time, when I finally realized that you are not worth the mental effort. Take your bullshit somewhere else pal. You are ignored.


----------



## rice paddy daddy

PalmettoTree said:


> I put this truth out once a year before the holidays and have not commented much since originally getting the thread started. Not only do I know that addicts are profoundly weak and defective people. I know those forced to live with the embarrassment, abuse, and neglect caused by addicts find strength and comfort in realizing they need not try to fix such people. (Note everyone that once used a substance even heavily is not an addict. Some here cannot understand the difference.) Unfortunately those that need to know this truth are usually too young to receive this message. I hope the adults reading this will use this truth to comfort and lighten the burden of children of these profoundly defective people.
> 
> Addicts start substance abuse for many reasons. It is the continued use as a crutch to deal with or avoid all together difficulties of life that leads to addiction.
> 
> Propensities for addiction are passed from generation to generation. Unfortunately this profound weak defect results in a new generation of addicts. It can never be known why one child of an addict avoids addiction and another does not. Did the defect pass one by and not the other? Or did influences in one life make the child that becomes old aged with out becoming addicted find a strong positive influence. Maybe they just refused to give in to that profound defect of weakness that lives within them.
> 
> It does not matter here. I got my warning out last year and I will put it out again next year. If not here then some where.
> 
> Now a few words about AA. AA saves many many lives. It is the only alternative to drunkardness for many. The organization can be a binding force of happiness between the drunk and the person labeled "enabler." It is not for me to object to people finding happiness.
> 
> What it is not is a vehicle for undoing harm. It is not a method of sanctioning "amends." I have never seen one member accomplish that step or even try.
> 
> AA is a collection of profoundly weak and defective people that lean on each other. The steps back up and admit what I have written about addicts.
> 
> To those of you that through this hell have stuck by your addict do not let AA demean that courage and commitment to your wedding vows by calling you an, "enabler." If you do not want to argue the point in meetings, fine. But do not think that of yourselves.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'll bother to take on some of the personal attacks on me written here. But since I have at least for this one post re-entered the discussion I will state my position again: Addicts are profoundly weak and defective people that cannot face life without a crutch.


You repeatedly speak of "profoundly weak and defective people".
I, sir, find your intelect profoundly weak and defective.
That makes YOU a profoundly weak and defective person.
And I totally agree with Inor.
Have a nice day.


----------



## Scotty12

That is actually what I am doing in school. I am currently in my 4th year as an undergraduate and am taking some master's classes. Addiction as a disease is both described by the AMA and in the DSM-V (APA). However the notion of using it as a crutch cannot be ignored. I m an alcoholic who has ben sober a long time. Insofar as being "weak and defective" I would have to say that we all are. It has been shown that different receptors (Dopamine, Epinephrine, etc.) are the matrix of a physical addiction. People do still use the addiction as a crutch at times. The only answer to dealing with alcoholism or any other addiction is to seek help


----------



## PalmettoTree

1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2)Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3)Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4)Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5)Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6)Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7)Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8)Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9)Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10)Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11)Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12)Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

1, 6 & 7 completely back up my assessment of addicts.

8 & 9 are functionally meaningless almost any addict that check these off is self delusional.

4 & 10) mostly never happens because one reason they became addicts is to deny the dishonest (and or other evils) that lurks within.

5) they fail to admit to the people that matter. What good does it do others if you are admitting your evil to another equally despicable person.

2, 3, &11 are pleas to God and an admiting of my statement.

12) a pledge to be faithful to the AA


----------



## dannydefense

I think there's a saying here that you may have never heard Palmetto;

_"It's Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt."_

I bid this thread, adieu.


----------



## Scotty12

This thread was almost funny lol


----------



## Montana Rancher

PalmettoTree said:


> From time to time someone post that they or a love one is struggling because a family member is an addict. Here is all you need to know about such people. Alcohol, drugs, tobacco, gambling the addiction is irrelevant to understanding the addict.
> 
> Addicts are profoundly weak people. They cannot face life without a crutch. They are not sick. They do not have a disease or illness. They are defectively weak. They are the hatchling that is best pushed out of the nest. They are natures mistake not your mistake. The sooner you face this fact and remove yourself and any children the better you will be for it.


Moron, I didn't read the other replies but your supposition that people with addictions are weak is narrow minded.


----------



## rice paddy daddy

PalmettoTree said:


> 1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable.
> 
> 2)Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
> 
> 3)Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
> 
> 4)Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
> 
> 5)Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
> 
> 6)Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
> 
> 7)Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
> 
> 8)Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
> 
> 9)Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
> 
> 10)Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
> 
> 11)Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
> 
> 12)Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
> 
> 1, 6 & 7 completely back up my assessment of addicts.
> 
> 8 & 9 are functionally meaningless almost any addict that check these off is self delusional.
> 
> 4 & 10) mostly never happens because one reason they became addicts is to deny the dishonest (and or other evils) that lurks within.
> 
> 5) they fail to admit to the people that matter. What good does it do others if you are admitting your evil to another equally despicable person.
> 
> 2, 3, &11 are pleas to God and an admiting of my statement.
> 
> 12) a pledge to be faithful to the AA


Well, you got the wording of the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous correct, but your comments go beyond plain ignorance to bordering on the delusional.
Hasta La Vista.


----------



## Schramm

Scotty 12, I am doing the same thing and was going to bring up the DSM-V myself. As to the OP his addiction is himself. He thinks he is above everyone if not almost everyone... its called a God complex... Get over yourself... also you might want to see someone about that...


----------



## Scotty12

Narcissistic disorder perhaps


----------



## PalmettoTree

Again and again all any of my critics posting here on this subject can offer nothing of substance to offer. All you have is ad hominem after ad hominem. Not knowing each of you I will not label you as you have me but I think we all know why.


----------



## Scotty12

These websites may give you a little insight.

Addiction and dependence in DSM-V. [Addiction. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

DSM-5 Changes in the Diagnosis of Addictions


----------



## Scotty12

Sorry for calling you narcissistic. I shouldn't label either


----------



## PalmettoTree

Scotty12 said:


> These websites may give you a little insight.
> 
> Addiction and dependence in DSM-V. [Addiction. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> DSM-5 Changes in the Diagnosis of Addictions


I do admit for an addict can abstain he needs help. But unlike the removal of a cancer against ones will can cure a person of some cancers. There is no medical or psychological drug or treatment that can cure an addict against the addicts will.

The primary reason for labeling addiction a disease is to get insurance and government to pay for treatment.

The lie that the "addiction disease" label tells is that both the onset and abstaining from substance abuse is that the person's actions are neither part of the start nor abstinence.

It is a fact that the person becoming addicted was by choice to take the substance and not to stop before dependence occurs. In contrast a person does not get kidney disease by choice and there is nothing a individual can do to stop the advancement of kidney disease.

I admit the lines cross when a smoker (addict) or a drunkard (addict) get cancer as a result of their own actions.

Your link is full of professional jargon but when it is all boiled down my assessment is a factual truth.


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## Scotty12

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree


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## PalmettoTree

Scotty12 said:


> We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree


If I remember correctly, you are attempting to become a professional in this area. If so I'll offer this advice: when dealing with the loved ones try not to give them false hope.

Once a single mother that was an employee at the plant I managed came to me about the defiance of her early teen aged son. Ling story short. I told her next time look him in the eye and say, "The truth is if you are determined to screw up your life there is nothing I can do to stop you."

Some weeks later she told me she did as I said and he July looked at her stunned but he completely changer. She said at least now there isn't defiance in our discussions.

That is true with addicts. No doctor, no pleasing spouse, no crying child pleading for the addict to stop will stop an addict. The addict must find something he loves more than the substance. That thing is never family. That thing an addict might love most 99% of the time is himself.

I am still comfortable with my original assessment of addicts. For that reason I think you have made a smart career move. You will always have addicts. They will always have love ones trying to find funding for almost useless treatment.

Remember this: A mind changed against its will is of the same mind still. Now apply that to addicts.


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## Scotty12

I do fundamentally agree with a lot of what you are saying but it still has to be addressed as a disease. And as with any disease you have to offer hope. You can arrest the disease (I haven't drank in years) but it will be there. You have to overcome it. I work, pay taxes, buy the occasional gun toy, curse and chase women. I just don't drink


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## PaulS

A poem by Michael De Phoenix:

Be happy with yourself, your achievements 
and the work you've done to become what you are; 
*but never satisfied lest you stagnate or become vain*.

Keep faith in yourself and in the universe, 
for they both contain the power to sustain you.

Let rewards neither deter your good deeds nor be the cause. 
Have grace in receiving as well as in giving;

Remember always; your life is made by the will and the word.
Desire that which is good and say only what you desire.

Above all else: walk softly, touching gently those you encounter along your way. 
Life is a precious thing that should only be taken with love.

I emphasized the part about being satisfied because when you are satisfied with your views you stop looking at them objectively. That takes away any cause to change as new evidence is provided. 
The fact is that addiction is a physiological dependence that is progressive and destructive. There is no cure only ongoing treatment. If it were a weakness on an emotional or mental level you could cure it. The statement, "once an addict always an addict", is therefore correct but one can fight and treat the addictive behavior. One slip and you are back at the same addictive level which was present before treatment began. In most cases the addiction is more powerful than the instinct for self preservation or even the preservation of the species (which is the strongest of all our instincts). One must find within oneself something that can counter the physical compulsion to continue the addictive behavior in order for treatment to work. Love is not usually part of the equation because the addict is not emotionally mature enough to know what love is. They are like babies knowing only that they have a need that must be satisfied. The sad part is that an addict can't mature emotionally as long as they are using the addictive substance. At some age the addict would simply not be capable of living due to their emotional immaturity. These are the ones who die as practicing addicts.


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## shotlady

Conundrum99 said:


> Those who think they can understand addiction who have not experienced this in there life can not speak to it. If you have not walked in a addicts shoe you can not know what there journey has been. I have been sober for 22 years, serviced my country, service my community with pride and my fellow man. I by no means consider myself weak or afflicted, only strong from the journey I have taken.
> 
> Found the forum Blackdog.
> 
> Prepper and Oath keeper from West Virginia


I just wanted to have fun we were at a party... meth 20yrs clean. I can tell you where people were standing, who was wearing what, all about the lighting, the night I be came a meth addict.
we had used it maybe 2 times with my ex husband over a couple of yrs we were gonna stay up making crazy monkey sex. "hey, you don't snort it... you gotta smoke it" the host says. we went straight to hell that night... I never in my mind ever phathomed we'd end up being addicts. because that didn't happen to people like us. but it did.


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## PalmettoTree

PaulS, once a drunk always a drunk. Ask the AA.

Look at the links posted. Look at how the word "genetics" is used. Id est profoundly weak and defective.

If addicts can be successfully treated then why is the failure rate so high? Diseases are not an action of choice. Cures are not acts of choice. Ask anyone with kidney or heart or diabetic diseases. Calling addiction a disease is a slap in the face of people suffering with real diseases. Any other affliction where the cost of treatment is so high; with the failure rate so high and zero evidence that treatment has been given or received would be labeled a fraud.

You could take 100 addicts off the streets at random. Give half of them conventional addiction treatment. Have the other half stand naked under full moons (when one occurs). While the others are being treated. At the end tell all 100 they are cured. There would be zero difference in the success rate.


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## inceptor

Palmetto Tree, in another thread you said people on other boards called you a troll and you couldn't figure out why.

Could it be because you are always right and everyone with a different opinion is wrong?

OR

Could it because you ALWAYS must have the final word?

OR

Could it be both combined?

ad·dic·tion [uh-dik-shuhn] noun
the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming

Psychologically habit forming, maybe like having to be right all the time?


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## Scotty12

PalmettoTree now you are talking with no empirical evidence to back that up. And which would be the control group and which the experimental?

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/treatment-approaches-drug-addiction


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## Cleanwaste

PalmettoTree said:


> I am sure many of you find the truth offensive but it is none the less true. Addict that stop using a substance replace that substance with meetings, 12 steps of dependency, and fellow defects. These things likely save the addict's life and financially are less destructive. They remain defective. They are still dependent. They remain defective.
> 
> This thread is not to offend you addicts it is to put in proper prospective addicts to children and adults responsible for those children. Denying this basic truth I does life long damage.


I haven't read all 152 replies, but as someone who has many close loved ones who are addicts, I gotta say something. I do not take responsibility for their addictions and I no longer enable their destructive behaviors. However, we are all defective in some way. To say that defective people just need to be pushed out of the nest sooner rather than later sounds like social Darwinism to me. No, thank you. Also, who else is defective in your mind and deserves to be pushed out of the nest because they're weak?

I guarantee you are very weak in some way, just like everyone else (it's called being human).


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## Scotty12

I just lost a spring on an AR... went flying across the carpet. I'll find it. I'm human


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## oldmurph58

Meangreen said:


> Denial isn't just a river in Africa. Remember your good enough, smart enough, and gosh darn it people like you!


 meangreen, you are really stuart smally? hmm. this explains a lot lol


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## PalmettoTree

Cleanwaste said:


> I haven't read all 152 replies, but as someone who has many close loved ones who are addicts, I gotta say something. I do not take responsibility for their addictions and I no longer enable their destructive behaviors. However, we are all defective in some way. To say that defective people just need to be pushed out of the nest sooner rather than later sounds like social Darwinism to me. No, thank you. Also, who else is defective in your mind and deserves to be pushed out of the nest because they're weak?
> 
> I guarantee you are very weak in some way, just like everyone else (it's called being human).


There is a difference between a person being somewhere off the center of the human traits normal curve and being profoundly off.

The point is to make the love ones of these profoundly weak and defective people understand that there is absolutely nothing you can for or with an addict. The closer you are to them; the more you trust them; the more damage they will do to you. You cannot get them to change! There is no one they love more than themselves. They cannot deal with life without a chemical crutch.

If they get sober or clean be happy for them but continue to keep your distance both literally and figuratively. If you are questioned about this continued shunning, ask have they fixed all the damage they did. Ask them why they became an addict. They will not answer those questions. Tell them until they can answer those questions to your satisfaction stay the hell away. Sober or clean they are still a danger to you and yours. Clean, sober only means they are in less danger to themselves by their own actions. They will still betray you. They will continue to seek out other profoundly weak and defective people over you.


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## shotlady

not every one can answer why. sometimes you cannot fix what you messed up. you can spend the rest of your life trying. there's all sorts of people that are dangerous and have never touched a drug. they will betray you do things you cant wrap your head a round.

you cant get people to change. but you sure can get them help. the want and need for help has to come from that person.


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## Scotty12

You had mentioned before about what if you had 100 addicts and eluded to a potential experiment. Do the research and then tell me your point.


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## rice paddy daddy

PalmettoTree said:


> There is a difference between a person being somewhere off the center of the human traits normal curve and being profoundly off.
> 
> The point is to make the love ones of these profoundly weak and defective people understand that there is absolutely nothing you can for or with an addict. The closer you are to them; the more you trust them; the more damage they will do to you. You cannot get them to change! There is no one they love more than themselves. They cannot deal with life without a chemical crutch.
> 
> If they get sober or clean be happy for them but continue to keep your distance both literally and figuratively. If you are questioned about this continued shunning, ask have they fixed all the damage they did. Ask them why they became an addict. They will not answer those questions. Tell them until they can answer those questions to your satisfaction stay the hell away. Sober or clean they are still a danger to you and yours. Clean, sober only means they are in less danger to themselves by their own actions. They will still betray you. They will continue to seek out other profoundly weak and defective people over you.


Someone really close to you, someone you loved, must have really hurt you. I am not going to say anything smartass, in fact I wasn't going to even post anything else in this thread. I just hope you can find some kind of closure to your pain.


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## Slippy

May I sincerely ask that we close this thread? No ulterior motivation, no smart assedness just a simple request that we close.


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## Scotty12

Amen...


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## inceptor

Agreed. This could get really ugly pretty quick.


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## jimb1972

inceptor said:


> Agreed. This could get really ugly pretty quick.


Could?


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## inceptor

jimb1972 said:


> Could?


We've seen MUCH uglier.


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## Cleanwaste

PalmettoTree said:


> There is a difference between a person being somewhere off the center of the human traits normal curve and being profoundly off.
> 
> *I agree. Personally, I try to stay clear of sociopaths and psychopaths whenever I can....however, what is considered normal has changed over the years. Without wanting to open another can of worms, homosexuality used to be classified as a disease, when it clearly is not. Even the experts on what constitutes normal human behavior can and have been wrong many times. Soooo, in the end, everyone has to choose for themselves if they feel they are in the normal range or not (=seek help or choose to stay miserable), and whether the people around them are in the normal range or not (=seek and maintain relationship or cut ties).*
> 
> The point is to make the love ones of these profoundly weak and defective people understand that there is absolutely nothing you can for or with an addict. The closer you are to them; the more you trust them; the more damage they will do to you. You cannot get them to change! There is no one they love more than themselves. They cannot deal with life without a chemical crutch.
> 
> *I agree with you, except for the part that addicts love themselves more than anyone else. I think addicts hate themselves more than anyone else. And while many of them are in denial, especially while using their drug/behavior of choice, they still have lucid moments frequently, in which they experience a lot of shame for who they are and what they have done/are doing. Sure, many fall into addiction out of misguided curiosity or stupidity, but many get addicted because it is the only accessible way for them to deal with extreme pain and trauma.
> 
> I have felt the same way you are feeling about someone very close to me until the day I found out why he became addicted. Let me just say he experienced the kind of pain and trauma that no child should ever experience and I'm in awe that he managed to function at least somewhat normally throughout parts of his life, even as a drug addict/alcoholic who was trying to cope when productive methods of coping (therapy, support from his family, etc.) were denied to him.*
> 
> If they get sober or clean be happy for them but continue to keep your distance both literally and figuratively. If you are questioned about this continued shunning, ask have they fixed all the damage they did. Ask them why they became an addict. They will not answer those questions. Tell them until they can answer those questions to your satisfaction stay the hell away. Sober or clean they are still a danger to you and yours. Clean, sober only means they are in less danger to themselves by their own actions. They will still betray you. They will continue to seek out other profoundly weak and defective people over you.


*In your scenario there is no redemption for anyone. Nobody deserves forgiveness. Nobody deserves a second chance, even when they have changed at their core. I choose to not live my life this way, because I believe in redemption. Not for religious reasons, but because I celebrate the human spirit and our ability to change and learn from our mistakes. I forgive because I want to move on in peace. I also acknowledge that I could have very easily ended up an addict. I know for a fact that even the strongest people have their breaking point and once that happens, if there isn't anybody there to catch them, often addiction is their only coping mechanism. That doesn't mean I'm responsible for them or their choices, but it reminds me that often it has nothing to do with weakness. Judging somebody as weak is oversimplifying the issue.*

*At any rate, I don't presume to know what led you to your conclusion, and I'm sincerely sorry that you got hurt. However, it feels like you're lashing out in anger and hurt, which just creates more anger and hurt.*


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## PalmettoTree

Cleanwaste said:


> *In your scenario there is no redemption for anyone. Nobody deserves forgiveness. Nobody deserves a second chance, even when they have changed at their core. I choose to not live my life this way, because I believe in redemption. Not for religious reasons, but because I celebrate the human spirit and our ability to change and learn from our mistakes. I forgive because I want to move on in peace. I also acknowledge that I could have very easily ended up an addict. I know for a fact that even the strongest people have their breaking point and once that happens, if there isn't anybody there to catch them, often addiction is their only coping mechanism. That doesn't mean I'm responsible for them or their choices, but it reminds me that often it has nothing to do with weakness. Judging somebody as weak is oversimplifying the issue.*
> 
> *At any rate, I don't presume to know what led you to your conclusion, and I'm sincerely sorry that you got hurt. However, it feels like you're lashing out in anger and hurt, which just creates more anger and hurt.*


You are confusing forgiveness with trust. I can forgive my dog for biting me but I could never trust a dog that bites around children. That is how I see alcoholics and addicts. They are the equivalent if biting dogs. They are not to be trusted.

There is no secular redemption that these profoundly weak and defective people can make. Christ paid for the sins of many that are not capable of self redemption. No doubt that includes addicts and drunks. I believe that. I am comfortable with that. I am thankful for that.

You cannot show me where trusting is part of that_i do not think.

Addiction and alcoholism is not a mistake. It is a chosen way of life. They cannot get sober or clean without choosing to do so. The character traits that resulted in their behavior is still part of them.


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## Stevenc90

So who in your family has been having this problem ... I pretty sure with this type of attitude someone in your family must be addicted or has past on if the later is the case i am sorry for your loss ... 

I have spent more money on drugs then you could possible imagine...Been clean 23 years Teach in a University .. Ya I am still surprised at that as the few friends that are still alive.. There are people who overcome their addictions maybe not as fast as you would like .. You must remember one thing all the counseling in the world will not help any addiction until that person is ready to receive the help.. yes they will cry and say help help help but until they really want it it will go one for a long time the begging the stealing, crying, and other thing .. just be there for them and hope one day they will realise it's time to stop but remember not everyone stops...


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## Cleanwaste

PalmettoTree said:


> You are confusing forgiveness with trust. I can forgive my dog for biting me but I could never trust a dog that bites around children. That is how I see alcoholics and addicts. They are the equivalent if biting dogs. They are not to be trusted.
> 
> *You are correct that forgiveness and trust are not the same. You are incorrect in assuming I don't know the difference. I disagree that an addict in recovery can't be trusted, only forgiven. Again, if someone changes at the core, they can earn my trust back. Certainly, I wouldn't trust a practicing addict, no, but I'm talking about an addict in recovery and you seem to purposely misunderstand my previous statement.*
> 
> There is no secular redemption that these profoundly weak and defective people can make. Christ paid for the sins of many that are not capable of self redemption. No doubt that includes addicts and drunks. I believe that. I am comfortable with that. I am thankful for that.
> 
> *That's personal opinion, not fact. I'm not going to have a discussion about religion. However, I don't have any evidence that God exists and forgives others, but I do have evidence that I exist and forgive others.*
> 
> You cannot show me where trusting is part of that_i do not think.
> 
> *Again, if someone truly changes, they can earn my trust back.*
> 
> Addiction and alcoholism is not a mistake. It is a chosen way of life. They cannot get sober or clean without choosing to do so. The character traits that resulted in their behavior is still part of them.


*Using and abusing drugs in the beginning certainly is a choice. Once you are addicted, you are a slave, not someone who chooses that way of life anymore. It's compulsion, obsession, dependency and well, addiction. I agree with you there and also that nobody gets sober without choosing to do so (or at least nobody stays sober without choosing to do so). What character traits exactly are you speaking about? Are those character traits alone what will keep you from associating with addicts? Because I have those character traits that could make me an addict as well... If you stay away from recovering addicts because they still have those character traits that led them down the path of addiction, do you stay away from people like me too?*


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## Scotty12

Stevenc90 said:


> So who in your family has been having this problem ... I pretty sure with this type of attitude someone in your family must be addicted or has past on if the later is the case i am sorry for your loss ...
> 
> I have spent more money on drugs then you could possible imagine...Been clean 23 years Teach in a University .. Ya I am still surprised at that as the few friends that are still alive.. There are people who overcome their addictions maybe not as fast as you would like .. You must remember one thing all the counseling in the world will not help any addiction until that person is ready to receive the help.. yes they will cry and say help help help but until they really want it it will go one for a long time the begging the stealing, crying, and other thing .. just be there for them and hope one day they will realise it's time to stop but remember not everyone stops...


These are some of the phases of addiction. Denial, Pre-contemplation, contemplation, and so on. There is a curve in addiction that is consistent and can be tracked.


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## pharmer14

The argument between choice and disease is a false one.

Why? Because it's like deciding whether to call a train wreck a train wreck or a man caused disaster.

The letters used to describe it are a waste of time in my opinion.

We should all be able to unite around the fact that addicts need help... regardless of whether that help is to help them alter their poor choices or to find ways to help them be less dependent (and eventually free from) on their crutch.

Any good medical professional will use both angles to help an addict. They get the behavior (choice) modifications to help them avoid triggers and increase their self control. They also get drugs or counseling to help with the cravings.


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## Deebo

Addiction- All youll need to know-
Deebo was once a very bad person.
Deebo buried a lot of friends. The deaths were drug related. I HONESTLY dont know why I lived throu some of the dumb stuff I was deeply involved in. 
Deebo "turned many a normal person into dope fiends".
Deebo often ponders what would happen to "weak minded mother****ers", like some of the people on here, spouting their "expert knowledge", if I had them "try this just once".
I am no expert, I dont want anything to do with that lifestyle anymore, other than "helping from a distance", becouse I dont even wanna be around a drug that leaches out of your skin, and can get into mine just by shaking hands.
I will continue to try to help people when I can, when ITS SAFE FOR ME. 
Anyone, ANYONE, ever need a fellow human to listen, I am here. Sometimes, just typing away at a keyboard, to a stranger, can help. 
I will repeat, im no expert, I dont wanna be, I wish to CHRIST I didnt know the things I know, But my upbringing and my heart make me "available".


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## PaulS

Deebo,
Our background is totally opposite yet we have arrived at the same place. I am open to assisting a person to overcome an addiction or any other problem - when it is safe for me to do so. They do have to recognize that they have to do all the work to get my support - that is one of the "universal laws" of life. The person who wants the change must be the one to make the changes. I can refer them to available systems and provide emotional and spiritual support but nobody can do the work for them.


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## shotlady

I find myself in the same boat. I can only offer compassion and understanding. I wouldn't /couldn't get close to a situation that involved sketchy drugs and sorts.


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