# Without Rule Of Law



## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

WROL. An interesting situation.

Do well civilized people attempt to obey previously existing laws, even when they are being broken by some others? Good people naturally attempt to instill order, to obey some sense of internal morality, to minimize the scary and the unknown. Will this continue after the SHTF? Will lawbreakers be subject to citizen's arrest by neighborhood 'law and order' groups, at least for a time? Or will we devolve into a "Mad Max" scenario right away?

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

Desperation. It will be desperation linked with time. As time goes by people will become more desperate and will obey less laws to just survive. Add to this the people trying to instill order and taking law into their own hands.


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

sideKahr said:


> WROL. An interesting situation.
> 
> Do well civilized people attempt to obey previously existing laws, even when they are being broken by some others? Good people naturally attempt to instill order, to obey some sense of internal morality, to minimize the scary and the unknown. Will this continue after the SHTF? Will lawbreakers be subject to citizen's arrest by neighborhood 'law and order' groups, at least for a time? Or will we devolve into a "Mad Max" scenario right away?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


Well look at Barry Sotero, the definition of without rule of law, or perhaps rules without laws.

Take your pick.


----------



## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

I have my doubts about the honesty, integrity, morals, and ethics of a very large minority of our society.

It will be the majority's problem to keep them in line with whatever means is necessary.

Personally, . . . my plan is to trust who I know, . . . and know who I trust. 

Like the old saying goes: Locks are just there to keep honest people honest, . . . after SHTF, . . . locks won't count, . . . 

May God bless,
Dwight


----------



## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

It would be to big of a risk and waste of resources to try to arrest and detain people in a SHTF scenario. Will there be a court and jail system setup?? What about guards, food and medical care for the prisoners. No I'm pretty sure it will be mob rule. You get caught doing something stupid, justice will be quick.


----------



## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

chipper said:


> it would be to big of a risk and waste of resources to try to arrest and detain people in a shtf scenario. Will there be a court and jail system setup?? What about guards, food and medical care for the prisoners. No i'm pretty sure it will be mob rule. You get caught doing something stupid, justice will be quick.


fema..


----------



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm guessing after the dust settles from SHTF groups/communities well set up some type of law and order. IMO though the penalties will be more harsh and rightly so because more will be on the line. If a severe law is broken in a community it will probably mean either death or banishment. The only problem with banishment is they are left to go gather others and comeback with a working knowledge of your community to do harm.


----------



## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

sideKahr said:


> WROL. An interesting situation.
> 
> Do well civilized people attempt to obey previously existing laws, even when they are being broken by some others? Good people naturally attempt to instill order, to obey some sense of internal morality, to minimize the scary and the unknown. Will this continue after the SHTF? Will lawbreakers be subject to citizen's arrest by neighborhood 'law and order' groups, at least for a time? Or will we devolve into a "Mad Max" scenario right away?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


Decent people will maintain some sort of rule of law even during wrol. As for a mad max event, that requires a world wide catastrophic event where entire countries are destroyed. If the US falls into a long-term wrol, we will be open to attacks from other countries like Russia, China, Iran or even the UK and I would not be surprised if they tried to invade us.


----------



## PatriotFlamethrower (Jan 10, 2015)

sideKahr said:


> WROL. An interesting situation.
> 
> Do well civilized people attempt to obey previously existing laws, even when they are being broken by some others? Good people naturally attempt to instill order, to obey some sense of internal morality, to minimize the scary and the unknown. Will this continue after the SHTF? Will lawbreakers be subject to citizen's arrest by neighborhood 'law and order' groups, at least for a time? Or will we devolve into a "Mad Max" scenario right away?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


Identify the bottom feeders who are acting like rabid animals, and ELIMINATE the risk to the rest of us.

I'll leave it there, since I don't want to get banned again.


----------



## trips-man (Apr 26, 2015)

This was slight touched on above....but what people who are already incarcerated?


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

trips-man said:


> This was slight touched on above....but what people who are already incarcerated?


That's a good question. It would suck to be in prison when the "lights go out".

To the OP, My belief is that there will be some rule of law.


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Depends on the scenario I think. Total grid down WROL. Mad max chaos I am thinking. In time limited law comes back but it will be lean and mean out of necessity. Instant, and brutal justice would be the norm I suspect.


----------



## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Just as an example, . . . in the old west, if a person was caught on a stolen horse, . . . because that horse meant survival in many cases for the real owner, . . . lots of times the justice was no further away than the nearest tree. 

I am not sure that it was a perfect system, . . . but it took care of the problem.

That type of justice goes all the way up to and long past Bonnie and Clyde, . . . but again, . . . when all else failed, . . . Bonnie and Clyde were dealt with, . . . John Dillinger also met up with "justice".

I would surmise that a similar "system" would prevail until a means of reliable rehabilitation would surface.

May God bless,
Dwight


----------



## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Prepared One said:


> Depends on the scenario I think. Total grid down WROL. Mad max chaos I am thinking. In time limited law comes back but it will lean and mean out of necessity. Intant, and brutal justice would be the norm I suspect.


I agree. During grid down\wrol no one will maintain a prison system for the wrong doers. Justice will be applied swift And brutal instead. No time out room for bad boys and gals.


----------



## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

I can only imagine it will be like "wild west" as it really was. People will appoint guardians of basic law, and the guardians will appoint posses to get done what needs doin


----------



## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> I would surmise that a similar "system" would prevail until a means of reliable rehabilitation would surface.
> 
> May God bless,
> Dwight


Reliable rehabilitation? If we had that now don't you think prisons would be less crowded?


----------



## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

trips-man said:


> This was slight touched on above....but what people who are already incarcerated?


I assume those who survive and escape will have the opportunity to start over, or continue the same path. Those who start over will probably never be found to be any less than any other member of society, and those who dont... well even in a total SHTF there will be cord and things taller than a man


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Most laws are stupid laws or needless laws.

no hunting on sundays
need drivers lic to drive on public road
no walking or riding bikes on a freeway


there are two laws I will obey POST SHTF... Love the lord your God and Love your neighbor as yourself

at the point a person is trying to harm me, my family, or others - they are no longer my neighbor and it is ok to KILL (Not Murder) in defense of self or others... The Sword that Jesus spoke about here

Luke 22:36
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

I have several swords.

I will not allow others fall into badness to force me to fall also.


----------



## trips-man (Apr 26, 2015)

In a TOTAL SHTF scenario, I would guess prison/jail staff (or anybody) would have a reason to go to work. Then what? Would our lib gov't set these people free?


----------



## PatriotFlamethrower (Jan 10, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> Most laws are stupid laws or needless laws.
> 
> no hunting on sundays
> need drivers lic to drive on public road
> ...


PERFECTLY stated, MM!


----------



## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> Just as an example, . . . in the old west, if a person was caught on a stolen horse, . . . because that horse meant survival in many cases for the real owner, . . . lots of times the justice was no further away than the nearest tree.
> 
> I am not sure that it was a perfect system, . . . but it took care of the problem.
> 
> ...


I thought that quick and harsh justice was / is a reliable means of rehabilitation. How do you rehab a rapist, arsonist, cronic drug user / dealer, or repeat thief? Even white collar crime should be dealt with much harsher than it is in today society, IMO. IMO, to many trees and rope are not being used properly any more! 3 strikes and your out is to many strikes. To much money being wasted on prisons and rehabilitation I think. Trials take way to long to come about for those arrested and lawyers get to much lea way to find and use BS excuses.


----------



## Disturbed12404 (Apr 23, 2015)

If SHTF quick and brutal without a lot of warning. I can't imagine the government to have time to come up with anything for inmates. Then it would be determined by whoever is left in jail. My guess would be that most would rot in their cells. I wouldn't be surprised if more than a handful broke free/set free. 

As for myself obeying laws. Well The People Republic of New Jersey can kiss my ass. If it gets bad enough the cops, EMT's and Firefighters will probably all go home to be with their families. I've got a 500 mi trek to my BOL so traffic laws are also out the window. Basically going by the laws of my morality. 

Don't take what isn't yours. 
If you have to take, try and repay but don't take more than you need. 
Hurt no one unless they intent to hurt you or your family. 
Eat what you kill. 
Help others if you're able. 

Here is a good question, You're out foraging and you cross paths with an orange jumpsuit from your local jail. What do you do? 

I personally wouldn't try and vigilantly justice for petty crime. Waste of my resources. Murder my unborn child though? Ill come after you guns blazing.


----------



## PatriotFlamethrower (Jan 10, 2015)

I believe that after a period of lawlessness, caused by desperation, fear, AND general thuggery, cooler heads will eventually prevail.

I say to the Federal government: LEAVE THE PEOPLE ALONE! It is the politicians who ultimately will have put the rest of us in this position in the first place.

There will be "enclaves" of "safe zones" and areas that are unsafe, much like living in the big cities today in this country. 

Like-minded people will stick together, good people and bad people.


----------



## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

trips-man said:


> In a TOTAL SHTF scenario, I would guess prison/jail staff (or anybody) would have a reason to go to work. Then what? Would our lib gov't set these people free?


this topic has been covered endlessly as a posting .... just basic thinking .... the prison guards are local residents for the most part .... more aware than anyone the type of senseless animals they have locked away .... none of the truely dangerous would be leaving their cell alive - wouldn't matter what orders they received from some gutless leftist Democrap governor ....


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

sideKahr said:


> WROL. An interesting situation.
> 
> Do well civilized people attempt to obey previously existing laws, even when they are being broken by some others? Good people naturally attempt to instill order, to obey some sense of internal morality, to minimize the scary and the unknown. Will this continue after the SHTF? Will lawbreakers be subject to citizen's arrest by neighborhood 'law and order' groups, at least for a time? Or will we devolve into a "Mad Max" scenario right away?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


Depending on what the future holds sure do think a return to vigilantism is conceivable. Our old pal Maja Rushie was speaking of the current situation in Baltimore a short while ago. The murder rate is breaking records and the cops are showing "restraint" as per instructions from Obummer..Sharpton..the DOJ and the local two bit democrat politicians..meaning the cops are not responding to the murder scenes or investigating the crimes. The law of the jungle is in effect. Could appear to be a possible precursor to more widespread lawlessness.

Does the Drive-By Media Know People Are Still Getting Shot in Baltimore? - The Rush Limbaugh Show


----------



## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I can only imagine it will be like "wild west" as it really was. People will appoint guardians of basic law, and the guardians will appoint posses to get done what needs doin


I agree. We'll see the return of "Frontier Justice" once the smoke clears and folks band together to rebuild.


----------



## duncan1371 (Apr 27, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> Just as an example, . . . in the old west, if a person was caught on a stolen horse, . . . because that horse meant survival in many cases for the real owner, . . . lots of times the justice was no further away than the nearest tree.
> 
> I am not sure that it was a perfect system, . . . but it took care of the problem.
> 
> ...


This is the problem I won't lie this is a made up figure but I feel that it is close. Either way most inmates choose not to be rehabilitated. If we would actually deal out the same or worse crime would go down and prisons would be over populated. No it isn't perfect but you know what if it is cut and dry that you kill Sam and Sam didn't do anything wrong you die. Simple. Sorry been a long day.


----------



## Harry Cline (May 22, 2015)

sideKahr said:


> will we devolve into a "Mad Max" scenario right away?


This is good a good discussion and just the sort that needs to be discuss cause once we enter that phase of SHTF it's to much to late. My take on this is there will be clusters of groups all over at least in America anyway and in fact I have read else where, how people have gotten several like minded people on board in their way of thinking survival in their own neighborhoods. To what degree some of this stuff has been talked about, who knows. I suspect it hasn't been talked about at all.

The focus more on what provisions are stored, perhaps weaponry, looking out for each other etc. But I doubt any kind of thought has been put into that 'what happens next'.
One thing I think most of us can agree on is it will be crazy, extremely chaotic. How many of us have even given thought to what happens with all the simple things that we now take for grated. Like what to do with the human waste cause the sewer system as we know it may be non existence. etc., etc., etc ............................

Now here is another Big surprise at least for some. Good people today going rouge tomorrow.(and it will happen) The bad people today will be just as bad tomorrow and I have little doubt amplified during the SHTF scenario.
And the danger is that we may end up under a Joseph Stalin regime to reign in the violence and carnage. Which on the shot term may work very well and may be needed. I personally will not discuss anyone's motives, I will not even engage in a conversation, I don't do it now when I'm out walking. But what I mean when I say discuss anyone's motives as it pertains to a SHTF situation I will shoot you right where you stand. No bravado here, cause I've manage to avoid the violence all of my adult life. Only the problem now is during a SHTF we have no one to trust out there because everyone is running around in a panic. And if it society breaks down completely even the police officers will be worried about taking care of their own clad.

I do think there is safety in numbers, but do any of us really know our friends, our neighbors ? I have no friends, never have, acquaintances yes but that is the extent to it all. As far as neighbors after a few years here I still don't even know their first names. (and don't want to) My act is going solo as it has been all my life. But without some form of human contact you can become jaded, I purposely practice being polite to people when I'm out and about.


----------



## charito (Oct 12, 2013)

sideKahr said:


> WROL. An interesting situation.
> 
> Do well civilized people attempt to obey previously existing laws, even when they are being broken by some others? Good people naturally attempt to instill order, to obey some sense of internal morality, to minimize the scary and the unknown. Will this continue after the SHTF? Will lawbreakers be subject to citizen's arrest by neighborhood 'law and order' groups, at least for a time? Or will we devolve into a "Mad Max" scenario right away?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


How quick it devolves will depend on your location, I suppose. Just look what happens in big cities where looters strike at the drop of a hat. That could easily escalate to include home invasions, etc.. if there is no longer rule of law.


----------



## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

Chipper said:


> It would be to big of a risk and waste of resources to try to arrest and detain people in a SHTF scenario. Will there be a court and jail system setup?? What about guards, food and medical care for the prisoners. No I'm pretty sure it will be mob rule. You get caught doing something stupid, justice will be quick.


SSS

*Rancher*


----------



## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

sideKahr said:


> WROL. An interesting situation.
> 
> Do well civilized people attempt to obey previously existing laws, even when they are being broken by some others? Good people naturally attempt to instill order, to obey some sense of internal morality, to minimize the scary and the unknown. Will this continue after the SHTF? Will lawbreakers be subject to citizen's arrest by neighborhood 'law and order' groups, at least for a time? Or will we devolve into a "Mad Max" scenario right away?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


I see it in terms of the status quo. Most people don't obey all laws, but most people do obey the important ones.

The vast majority of people I know don't like infringements on their personal liberties in regard to their own safety and well being. This is pretty much where good law comes into being.

Laws are heavily based upon economy and political economy as opposed to personal security and public safety. The "economy" in a nationalized political legislative mindframe turns items of personal endevour into "state interest". It is these sorts of regulatory controls that people tend to skirt because the state is the only victim not any individual.

Now personally I think the WROL is when people have extreme needs for survival combined with the state being unable to support an army of the public due to a realization that the masses cannot be supported in a time of great calamity.

It is when this happens that factionalization such as in Somolia or Yugoslavia at the time of the war manifest.

So WROL is groups maintaining their own interests because the state no longer supports their survival.

This is a really extreme scenario that I cannot see in the near term short of some massive event such as nuclear war, WWIII, or major calamity (successive disasters that break down the backbone infrastructure that government depends on such as highly destructive EMP, or other rare and low probability events.

I am sure that some will maintain "the law" or use it as a basis of "common cultural recognition". How ever this varies from group to group. For instance I don't watch TV, what are cultural cues for TV watchers who watch cop shows will be different from people who follow the letter of the law. Sensationalism or otherwise will be based on cultural backgrounds. Personally though, I think arrest would not be common due to lacking resources to create an absence of state. As soon as there are resources there will be a state goverment formed. The issue could be mass fallout limiting the size of communities etc.. or mass die offs creating lower populations but in general humans usually congregate, and population is a force multiplier so likely any rebuilding will have whomever organizes societies into functioning labour forces and self preservation will be able to extert control over land, ex. formation of republics from city centers.

I see WROL to be a short lived event after massive calamity that lasts perhaps 7 years or so. The first couple years will be the most but if you follow disaster recovery you are looking at a couple years to "get things stable" and up to a decade to rebuild essential infrastructure. It will take decades to fully recover from this sized event but rest assured, the powers that be are able to control the masses, so whomever or whatever ideology takes form will guide a formation of law and order, whether by convention or written legislation, and case laws as people are commonly exposed to.

This is it.

3 days people are in a calm----- not knowing what to expect
for the next couple weeks order breaks down as resources slip and manpower is exhausted. (essential systems are a priority to maintain)
month or so while state and federal reserves deplete or break down (rebuilding starts based on priorities)
disease crops up... major infrastrucutre starts causing food shortages and water supply is endangered
6 months MAJOR social organization takes hold as everyone who has survived to this point joins one faction or another or is out of the equation
mass rebuilding as population stabalizes, rationing is in place people are despare
within a few years everything is stable but not as advanced or luxurious
10 years later people are sleeping again.


----------



## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I would like to think that people would come together for the greater good and keep each other safe. But I've seen enough of the stank of humanity to know that it will not last the more desperate it gets.


----------



## William Warren (May 28, 2015)

Chipper said:


> ... I'm pretty sure it will be mob rule. You get caught doing something stupid, justice will be quick.


It might be quick, but it wouldn't be justice. Be careful what you wish for.

William Warren


----------



## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

There are so many laws on the books now it is impossible to live without breaking one. When the break down of government and their laws most of the society will revert to the basics for rule of law. no stealing, no raping, no murdering basicly the golden rule. There will be the dregs of society that will have to be dealt with but for the most part life will go on as before big brother came along.


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Do you go faster than the speed limit? by even a little bit? Do you come to a complete stop at each stop sign? Do you fudge on your taxes?

If you are already doing these things now, why would you follow any law when there is no one to catch you? I sometimes catch myself going over the limit - I slow down. I make a point of making complete stops at stop signs and on the rare occasion that I miss it I slap my hand and verbally reprimand myself. I can honestly say I never cheated on my taxes. I sometimes paid more than I had to because the "deduction" did not really apply to my situation.

I am not perfect nor do I hold others to my own moral standards. I trust that people will continue to be who they are until they change.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

We seem to be confusing codes, regulations and statutes that are not in keeping with the consitution (read common law) was law.

All those "laws" we violate on a daily basis? The commercial codes and traffic codes? All those regulations written and enforced by agencies over which congress wrings its hands and claims no way to hinder? I don't consider them to be _laws_ and have nothing to do with the so-called _nation of laws._

Rule of law can be boiled down to simple terms. Think back to the foundation of the original concept of law in the West. That concept was rooted in the Christian faith. Murder, theft, robbery, rape; those things which we all view as wrong and have no need to read a legal document to understand. Ignorance of the law is no excuse because you know those things to be wrong; they are simply codified so that penalties for committing the crime may be imposed in a civilized manner and not by vigilante "justice." The use of fair and balanced scales, otherwise the merchant is a thief, and we already understand theft is wrong. Respect for the property of others, be that property be a hat or 40 acres. That respect is to be shown not just by other citizens but the government as well.

Without rule of law. Exactly what that means is dependent upon communities. Neighborhoods, towns, cities; where people live together, will be where it is decided what happens when the lights go out for an extended period of time. How do you see this nation handling such times?


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Under common law there is no crime without a victim. If what you do harms no one then there is no crime. If it does harm another person then it is a crime.


----------



## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Actually in an EOW situation there will still be norms and rules, just you may not like them. Nature abhors a vacuum, and will fill the void quickly.
However, how your early law forms will be determined largely by the type of community you form. 

Theological groups: Will install the Christian Taliban
Paramilitaryt: Usually will form either Juntas or be guided by an abbreviated form of UCMJ
Criminals: They already have their own government setup

Where you really have to worry isn't just the lawlessness. You have as much risk of being killed by a little known psychological condition known as 'Sociopathic Conformity.' All sorts of crazy things have happened under these conditions; Massacres, corrupt police forces, witches burned, etc.


----------

