# Cut the crap



## BetrayedAmerican (Jan 8, 2013)

This message may seem completely off and especially since I just got back it may seem against my normal nature but I assure all of those that know me, I am the same guy.

First of all I read a lot of questions about guns and ammunition. That's good but how many of those posts have the underlining questions or intent of "Which gun and caliber would be best for humans."
I read a lot of these posts going far back as I have a lot of catching up to do, to the recent set of threads. If this is your intent then I would ask that you spread your legs and repeatedly punch yourself between the legs until you no longer have the strength to stand up for the question you ask is about as stupid as the request I just made to those of which this message is to.

Most of you do not understand the feeling of true fear, the down right utter blind, chilling, cold, dark nano seconds of time when you realize you are being fired on or have been hit by fire. Most of you do not know what it is like to stare down the rifle and know that as you pull the trigger you put out a flame on a wick of a life. Most do not know what it is like to be fired on in a bad game of cowboys and indians where in this case your childhood friend is replaced by the very true and very willing enemy, and the bang bang bang of a childhood game comes to life in a very real hell on earth.

To take fire and return fire be it, cover fire to the tactical precision of a sniper rifles beautiful song there is a difference to those that have been there and those that pretend or imagine. If you are asking what gun is best used in the situation of needing to take the life of another human being, then the answer from me is simple. ANY GUN. The truth is that when you find yourself in the position of actually needing to use that weapon in the manner of which it was made for, two things happen. You sit and wonder if you can, sit and think about things ( can I do this, can i justify this, what will happen if I do this, if religious you tend to ask if it is a justifiable kill) OR you take aim squeeze the trigger, the gun goes bang the bullet hits the target falls and you now know what it is like to exterminate a life.

The point of this is to make you think before asking questions as if humans are a prey animal, a safari hunt, or a target at some gun range.

If you are asking what gun to use to kill people with the answer for you is any. They are all efficient and do the job very well, it just depends on the hands and mind controlling the weapon. 

The question you need to come to terms with is, can you pull the trigger when the time comes.

We had a guy on mission. Point man in the lead RG-31. His purpose was to protect the two Huskies in front of us. A shot rang out then another then another then smoke plumes from grape huts came and we knew this is it. Most of us in this company were brand new and never seen theater before. Anyway long story short when the AAR came back from the talk we heard rumor that lead truck didn't fire a single round. That AAR proved that the rumor was true. The lead truck the one covering 9-3 did nothing in the fire fight. He couldn't do it. He couldn't pull the trigger even knowing that if he didn't he could have been the reason an enemy got a lucky recoiless round off or whatever.....

If you want to get a gun find one for the practical use of things. My recommendation is the 30.06 as it is powerful enough to take down any north american big game animal and they were used as sniper rifles in vietnam.

Anyway this bounced all over the place but whatever... 

Side not the 30.06 is super easy to reload as well...


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## BetrayedAmerican (Jan 8, 2013)

Damnit, I meant to hit the preview button... Oh well it is out there now... take it or leave it.


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

The hard cold truth is hardly ever heard. Thanks.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I have seen a person freeze in the face of death. It is a very scary thing to watch. The look of disbelief and shock on their face, almost as if mentally they suddenly choose to become spectators of the event rather than participants. It's not a conscious decision it is a reflex. No one knows until they are looking down the barrel of a gun how they will react. The moment of truth is different for everyone.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Is there a question in there? Someone will either freeze or not. What's to discuss?


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

What's the point? The 30-06 is a great round? Okay, it's the caliber of my main hunting rifle so I think I am on board.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Very informative. Thanks for your Service and good tips Sir! Putting a naught six on the agenda for soonish.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Thanks for your service

The OP was a rambling mess of a post and as you said IT SEEMED OFF

do most people ask the question about caliber selection based on killing people...sure...but they also ask to clarify which is best hunting, long and short range, match or not match rifle and pistol caliber....

HOWEVER, the question - "What round is best for humans is valid" and worthy of discussion. The military has grappled with this since 1776 and before. And it has nothing to do with freezing or not freezing during your first contact with a person trying to kill you

even in your final answer about the 30-06.. you mention Killing Animals and Killing Humans - they were used for sniper rifles..WHY? because SHTF weapons will be used for two purposes... FOOD and SELF DEFENSE... 

SO which caliber is BEST for killing. that is the question and a valid question


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I consider it a good thing that only one or two percent of the American population have ever been in the position of having to shoot at another human being.
Especially so for my wife and children.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Thank you guys, for doing what you've done. 
From my heart. Donnie


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

So unless your former military with combat experience you don't know crap and will basically fail miserably, is that what your saying. I could say cut the crap but I won't bother and no I won't give up my weapons and I do plan on surviving if put in a bad situation, thank you very much, even though I'm not former military or even LEO. Please don't hurt yourself falling off your pedestal. :bow:


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Nah! What he's saying - to all the arm chair commandos - is that unless you've been in harms way - where those pesky little lead projectiles have been flying around - maybe you ought to not pontificate and instead use what god gave you two of and listen to those who've been there and seen the elephant


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Please don't hurt yourself falling off your pedestal. 

I took it as general grumpy and awkward re-entry to re-establish some imaginary pecking order too.
Just point and pull. There's little more to it than that.


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

The O P got it right,being physicaly able to pull the trigger is one thing, being mentally able is a whole different ball game. Thanks for the dose of reality.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

There has never been a time in my life, I thought killing another human being would be easy. Honestly, it's my intention to go through my life never having to make that decision. I worked many years with friends who were in Nam, who was in serious action, they never spoke much about it, and I could tell they didn't want to, so I never pressed them on it. 
But there is a first time for everyone, even the ones who have been there. Again, my plan is to live out my life, without ever knowing what it's like firing upon another human, BUT put me in a position where my life, or the life of another innocent person is in danger. Will I freeze? perhaps, but don't bet your life on it.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

SARGE7402 said:


> Nah! What he's saying - to all the arm chair commandos - is that unless you've been in harms way - where those pesky little lead projectiles have been flying around - maybe you ought to not pontificate and instead use what god gave you two of and listen to those who've been there and seen the elephant


So I guess all those home invasions that were stopped by the home owners or young children doing what mom and dad told them never happened because we all know that they actually froze and the bad guys killed themselves. Now who needs to cut the crap. More people die due to violence on the streets in America than die in combat every year. The threat is just as real in home town America as it is in the middle east, just one is called war and the other is called every day life. Must be a walk in the park in south chicago, parts of L A, comiefornia, border towns in south west America, detroit, ferguson, MO or St. Louis, MO.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

ekim said:


> So I guess all those home invasions that were stopped by the home owners or young children doing what mom and dad told them never happened because we all know that they actually froze and the bad guys killed themselves. Now who needs to cut the crap. More people die due to violence on the streets in America than die in combat every year. The threat is just as real in home town America as it is in the middle east, just one is called war and the other is called every day life. Must be a walk in the park in south chicago, parts of L A, comiefornia, border towns in south west America, detroit, ferguson, MO or St. Louis, MO.


We seem to have a bit of a problem with reading English. If you've been to a place where the bullets have been whizzing past your head or had to defend yourself like George Z did, then you've been to see the elephant. Doesn't matter if it was here or in BFE.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

I have seen and been hit by the elephant, so what does that make me? Slow?


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Nah! What he's saying - to all the arm chair commandos - is that unless you've been in harms way - where those pesky little lead projectiles have been flying around - maybe you ought to not pontificate and instead use what god gave you two of and listen to those who've been there and seen the elephant


Two ears, and one mouth, correct?

If he is saying listen more often, then I agree. If he is saying STFU, then I disagree.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Sorry I'll keep the 308. Your points just didn't sway my opinion. Is the 30-06 what you used in service? Being your all talking from experience??


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Tennessee said:


> I have seen and been hit by the elephant, so what does that make me? Slow?


Unlucky. Thanks for your service.

Am also guessing that it's an event you would have been extremely happy had it never occurred


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

tinkerhell said:


> Two ears, and one mouth, correct?
> 
> If he is saying listen more often, then I agree. If he is saying STFU, then I disagree.


All Sarge was trying to do was simplify the OP post to make it easier to understand.

He double hockey sticks I enjoy watching folks do dumb things


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Can't remember where but I've read that the average citizen that defends him / her self is more likely to hit and stop they're threat to them much better then the average LEO, even though the average citizen is only exposed to such situations rarely as compared to LEO's whom are said to confront such situations on an almost daily basis and are "trained". Go figure. Where as military personal are trained to fight, the average citizen is taught to call 911, what a waste of time when your life is on the line, but if the citizen is armed they seem to respond as the military would, eliminate the threat and by some reports much more frequently and with as good or better results than LEO's. If your on a forum like this then you probably have a better / different mind set already and are thinking or have thought about what you might have to do in a bad situation. Not all are trained killers but even talking about different situations is better than not having a clue. I'm not saying it won't have and effect on you mentally afterwards but even LEO's and combat vets suffer from this too. I think a lot of what the OP might be referring to are those that get carried away with having guns up the wazoo and each being for a different situation and thinking they are set to take on the world, hands down. I'm not saying that a combat vets experience won't kick in and serve them well but most people have a strong survival drive built in and will fight back if pushed unless they have had a bad childhood with crappy uncaring parents and to much liberal education.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

isn't there also about 200,000 times per year, where a weapon is shown but does not require shooting? is there a count on how many times they require firing?

for example, if they require firing 400,000 times per year.....then.........even a dumbarse citizen that has never known the elephant is better off having a firearm then not having a firearm arm.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

tinkerhell said:


> isn't there also about 200,000 times per year, where a weapon is shown but does not require shooting? is there a count on how many times they require firing?
> 
> for example, if they require firing 400,000 times per year.....then.........even a dumbarse citizen that has never known the elephant is better off having a firearm then not having a firearm arm.


Your trying to apply logic where some even on this forum don't use logic, just they're opinion, but some feel that towards me too so......


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

ekim said:


> Can't remember where but I've read that the average citizen that defends him / her self is more likely to hit and stop they're threat to them much better then the average LEO, even though the average citizen is only exposed to such situations rarely as compared to LEO's whom are said to confront such situations on an almost daily basis and are "trained". Go figure. Where as military personal are trained to fight, the average citizen is taught to call 911, what a waste of time when your life is on the line, but if the citizen is armed they seem to respond as the military would, eliminate the threat and by some reports much more frequently and with as good or better results than LEO's. If your on a forum like this then you probably have a better / different mind set already and are thinking or have thought about what you might have to do in a bad situation. Not all are trained killers but even talking about different situations is better than not having a clue. I'm not saying it won't have and effect on you mentally afterwards but even LEO's and combat vets suffer from this too. I think a lot of what the OP might be referring to are those that get carried away with having guns up the wazoo and each being for a different situation and thinking they are set to take on the world, hands down. I'm not saying that a combat vets experience won't kick in and serve them well but most people have a strong survival drive built in and will fight back if pushed unless they have had a bad childhood with crappy uncaring parents and to much liberal education.


Not sure where all the stats come from which are being used to compare cops to civilians in a busting caps situation but there do appear to be some faulty factoids wafting around. Having been in the profession for quite a few years cannot recall once where anybody I knew or heard tell about was reluctant to drop the hammer when it was required. Maybe I was just fortunate to not hang around with those types. The folks I hung with were highly trained and ready to rumble instantly when presented with a life endangering scenario. Now did have a few pals over the years who got ambushed and such thing where they had no chance to respond. For each one who got shot probably had five killed in car wrecks...run over on the side of the road etc. Show us the stats. Thanks.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> Not sure where all the stats come from which are being used to compare cops to civilians in a busting caps situation but there do appear to be some faulty factoids wafting around. Having been in the profession for quite a few years cannot recall once where anybody I knew or heard tell about was reluctant to drop the hammer when it was required. Maybe I was just fortunate to not hang around with those types. The folks I hung with were highly trained and ready to rumble instantly when presented with a life endangering scenario. Now did have a few pals over the years who got ambushed and such thing where they had no chance to respond. For each one who got shot probably had five killed in car wrecks...run over on the side of the road etc. Show us the stats. Thanks.


I'll be the first to admit I'm not the first person to call for patting the LEO's on the back for a job well done, and I'm not saying LEO's won't pull the trigger when called to, that is a different issue all together. What I was referring to I believe was an FBI report about shooting statics on actual shooting results comparing civilian shootings and police shootings, and the shots on target was something like +6 for civilians compared to +3 or 4 for police, nothing near what one would have expected. As far as being ambushed, I think more civilians have been ambushed than LEO's, but ambushing LEO's isn't the norm and gets more attention than just a citizen shooting.

I could be wrong with the numbers but I believe the shots on target was based on 10 shots fire and I think the LEO average was closer to 2 or 3 but I'm not sure so I error'd on the plus side for LEO's.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Well righteous citizen shootings don't get any coverage from the lame stream commie media unless the Reverennd Sharpton can be imported by PMSNBC to turn it into a racially charged incident. Just picked this up on the cell phone news this morning. The young man did a fine job in my view. Think we may be comparing oranges to apples here. Cops aren't normally going to be jolly on the spot while citizens are blazing away at bad buys. They come to write the report..lol. Whoever is there to put bad guys out of action works for me. Glad us civilians are ahead.

Store Clerk Shoots 2 Men Who Tried To Rob Tulsa Store, Police Sa - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com |


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

BetrayedAmerican, thank you for your service, I have never seen combat , with that being said I would hope that if the shit hit the fan that you would nursmade us that had never been through what you have experienced, after all, I think we are one the same side, I feel pretty confident that if my family were threaten with deadly force that I would not be afraid to give my life for them, as far as what caliber to use, what ever I can get my hands on, by the way ,good to here from you again


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I honestly hope it's a situation I never have to face nor make. My God bless those that have had to make that choice in the protection of others.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

well, I read betrayed's comments twice and it just made my head hurt. Not sure where he was going. But, I was out with customers late last night and up early hunting with them so it might be me. For now, I will thank him for his service and refrain from any further comments till I know more about him. Where ever you were betrayed, welcome back.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Struck the untrained eye as a discharge of pent up emotions...hopefully therapeutic..and surely informative.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

BetrayedAmerican said:


> This message may seem completely off and especially since I just got back it may seem against my normal nature but I assure all of those that know me, I am the same guy.
> 
> First of all I read a lot of questions about guns and ammunition. That's good but how many of those posts have the underlining questions or intent of "Which gun and caliber would be best for humans."
> I read a lot of these posts going far back as I have a lot of catching up to do, to the recent set of threads. If this is your intent then I would ask that you spread your legs and repeatedly punch yourself between the legs until you no longer have the strength to stand up for the question you ask is about as stupid as the request I just made to those of which this message is to.
> ...


Most persons asking such questions are not living in a wet dream fantasy. They are truly concerned individuals wanting to know.

I hope you don't believe you are the only one to face perilous times. Before you and after you their have been and will be many.

Know one knows who will rise and fall on the occasion.

You are not the only one. As you want to be respected. Respect others and their genuine curiosity.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

After reading all these post I've come to the conclusion I like wet dreams.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Unlucky. Thanks for your service.
> 
> Am also guessing that it's an event you would have been extremely happy had it never occurred


NO service here. I was lucky my lottery number was 62 and never got the call. It was a George Z type of thing. But it still hurt. I took one before I could get the gun from him. And no I was lucky I'm still here!


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Tennessee said:


> NO service here. I was lucky my lottery number was 62 and never got the call. It was a George Z type of thing. But it still hurt. I took one before I could get the gun from him. And no I was lucky I'm still here!


Sounds like you did a fine job Sir. Thanks for your Service! I was number 256 on the first drawing of lucky lotto balls in 71 or 72 maybe. As John Wayne often told Gabby Hayes..."Somebody is going to have remain behind with the scatter gun to protect the wimmen and chillins while the able bodied men folks is out fighting ******."


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Nah! What he's saying - to all the arm chair commandos - is that unless you've been in harms way - where those pesky little lead projectiles have been flying around - maybe you ought to not pontificate and instead use what god gave you two of and listen to those who've been there and seen the elephant


Are you going to be the one to classsify the arm chair commandos???

"Ought not to pontificate" REALLY... so you are saying sit down and shut up???


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## BetrayedAmerican (Jan 8, 2013)

Maine Marine, your statement of the military grappling with the caliber of choice best used for the taking of human life could have been solved a long time ago if the weak were left out of war decisions. The idea to use FMJ rounds is good for such things as armor penetrating and long distance but in the terms of knock down and sheer force a hollow point coming out of a gun as simple as the M-16/M-4 would be significantly better for stopping power. Why are these rounds not being used people ask. The sad fact is there are two reasons only one of which I am only somewhat close to agreeing with... 
1. A FMJ will create a pin hole entrance and exit wound given bullet velocity and range. causing an effect one would imagine. Stick a pencil through one side of flesh and out the other and what do you get? A pencil sided hole through and through. Take a Hollow point or even a solid lead tip and what do you get in that same experiment...? You get a pencil size entrance wound and a pop can exit wound... Do the math and tell me which would be better in war.
2. The weak of mind and heart over rule the intelligent and the strong in this matter of war.. It is to INHUMANE they say to shoot people with a hunting type round. Take a look at the hunting round and what it is made for. It is made for a single shot to do extreme amounts of damage and kill quickly.. Humans unless under extreme circumstances are not allowed to be targeted by a .50 caliber sniper rifle anymore. At least not in my AO. The reason for this is the sheer carnage and effectiveness of the round.

Back to the original post I guess there is validity in the question but at the time when I was reading it all, to me it just sounded like a bunch of call of duty and battlefield kids asking what gun they should use in the real world to do what so easily comes to them in a video game but then when the game is reality and you don't get a respawn then what.

That might be the point in case right there as to my thinking and agitation to the question is that we live in a generation where kids are more worried about the next system coming out and the games they can get for them that to create soldiers from this generation you need to break them to the core and rebuild them.

I don't know.. I am done with it now.... moving on.


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## BetrayedAmerican (Jan 8, 2013)

Chipper said:


> Sorry I'll keep the 308. Your points just didn't sway my opinion. Is the 30-06 what you used in service? Being your all talking from experience??


I believe I stated in that conversation that I do not care what is thought of me in posting that, in another note, no the 30.06 was not the gun I used. I was the lead gunner... So put this whole bullshit accusations and judgments to the side. Yes as sad and as hard as it is to admit it. Yes I was the lead gunner why because I was the best damn shot in that entire company BUT when it came down to my first fire fight and the silhouette of the enemy was real and the dirt dust blood lead and all was in the air it all hit at once and for the first part of that fire fight I froze. So there you have it all you judgmental bastards out there.. I froze the first time. I put the entire convoy of our route clearance patrol in danger and yes I took shit for it and still do.. But it was not the only fire fight we were ever in and it was never replayed the same again for the next time I knew what had to be done and knew the fear and knew the anxiety and knew the pressures... So judge all you ****ing want to but know that in the end I also helped keep my boys alive.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

I get why people ask all these questions. Part of it is in the last few years prepping and guns have kind of gone mainstream so you have a lot of people who are extremely unfamiliar with guns so they turn to forums like this one and you tube to gather information to make their purchase. The result is an addiction to what could be called "gun porn" or even what Nutnfancy calls 2nd kind of cool (for the uninitiated 2nd kind of cool is what you personally consider cool even if its unpractical economically like owning gear navy seals carry or a desert eagle etc). You also have shows like The Strain and The Walking Dead which have lead to even more people becoming first time firearm owners and again they come to places like this one to ask for advice. Some are the mall ninja type that take it way too far but most are just looking for information. That being said OP while I might not have served but I empathize with what your saying. Even as a kid I couldn't go in the woods during deer season because of all the idiots who's only experience was picking the gun off the shelf the week before.

I will say, I am glad places like this exist because I have received tons of helpful advice in purchasing and now outfitting my first ar-15 as well as advice in the handgun area which I have almost no experience. I sincerely hope I never use my handguns or ar in anger but if the time comes I'm glad that I have them and even more glad of all the information I got from these forums and from other internet sources.


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