# Question for LEOs about gun transport



## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

In the latest NRA mag they say that Maryland is now using license plate scanners and comparing results to database for out of state CCW permits. Then they stop and harass and demand to search the vehicle. So I have a few questions.
1. Is this legal?
2. Do I have to answer the question “do you have a weapon in the car?”
3. Is refusal to answer that question “probable cause” to search the vehicle?
4. Is having a CCW “probable cause” for a search?

That said, I sometimes travel thru MD and I have an SUV. I have a lockable 50 cal. Ammo box that I secure in my rear cargo area with a steel cable so the box is locked and not removable from the car. I put my unloaded gun in this lock box. I put my unloaded mags and boxed bullets in my unlocked soft sided luggage bags, also in the rear cargo compartment. The ammo can is always covered and not visible from outside the vehicle. And I know to NEVER consent to a vehicle search.
5. Does this method of transport qualify as legal under federal laws?
6. If the trooper searches and finds the box, and asks, do I have to declare the gun? Do I have to open it? Can he force it open and seize the gun?

Now I understand that if the cop is a prick all bets are off. But I’m talking legal here so I could satisfy the law and beat it in court if necessary.
7. And finally, how about if I field strip the gun (glock) and carry it in the box in a disassembled condition?


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## Entryteam (Jul 18, 2018)

Chiefster23 said:


> In the latest NRA mag they say that Maryland is now using license plate scanners and comparing results to database for out of state CCW permits. Then they stop and harass and demand to search the vehicle. So I have a few questions.
> 1. Is this legal?
> 2. Do I have to answer the question "do you have a weapon in the car?"
> 3. Is refusal to answer that question "probable cause" to search the vehicle?
> ...


First.....pretextual traffic stops are illegal on most states. So there is that. Further, a CCW permit is NOT PC for a stop OR a search. You are NOT required to answer ANY question about what is or is not in your vehicle, and REFUSAL to answer any question is NOT PC for a search either. It may talk you into a ticket, but they have got to have a criminal action/violation in order to even stop you in the first place. Otherwise, you will eventually profit from the lawsuit which should follow.

Hope this helps,

-E


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

You don't have to do anything, no it is not legal.

Want to really piss the cop off... assuming you weren't stopped for speeding, or falsely stopped for speeding, or have an air freshener hanging from your mirror obstructing your view...

Say:
1. Under advice of my attorney I don't have to answer any questions.
2. Can I speak to your supervisor.
3. Am I under arrest.
4. I don't have to answer any questions.
5. Can I speak to your supervisor.
6. Am i free to go officer.
7. I don't have to answer any questions.
8. Am I under arrest.
9. Am I free to go.
...

*Rancher*


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

first of all it has to be true - this has been discussed before on a few sites - they would need to be able access state's databases that have CCW info tied into a DMV database >>>>> every state is different but most don't have that CCW info that readily available - they are fighting for it contending it would improve cop safety ....

for the rest of it - sounds like you got your butt covered - if Maryland is still taking extraordinary steps to persecute out-of-stater CCWs >>>> they won't be getting away with it ....


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Went passing through a State that you do not have a permit or Licensed in. You come under Federal law. The law is trick about stops. It has to be in a lock container be unloaded and ammo not with weapon. Here is some good advice . If you have complied with all of that. Do not leave the holster laying on the seat. Ask me how I know this.

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
(Added Pub. L. 99-360, § 1(a), July 8, 1986, 100 Stat. 766.)

"Under its authority through the Commerce Clause to address matters that affect interstate commerce (i.e., travel across state lines), Congress adopted a statute, Chapter 44 of the U.S. Code [http://gunla.ws/title18] covering "Firearms." Statutes therein make unenforceable any state law to the contrary. In other words, Chapter 44 expressly affords You the right to interstate transportation of firearms from one lawful place to another lawful place."

Transporting a Firearm Into / Through the State of New Jersey | New Jersey State Police Firearms Information

Maryland

FAQs

"A Maryland resident who lawfully owned the firearm prior to October 1, 2013 may travel with the firearm to other states and return so long as it is not a violation in the state you are traveling to and the firearm is being transported in accordance with the law. A person may not transport an assault weapon into Maryland for target competition unless the person lawfully possesses, has a purchase order for, or applied to purchase the weapon before October 1, 2013. Federal law allows a person to transport a firearm through Maryland but not to Maryland if the firearm is not in compliance with state law."

"Yes, under Title 18, Section 926A, of the United States Code, a person who is not prohibited from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment. In the case the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked compartment other than the glove compartment or console. "


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

My 2 cents. If your that worried about it field strip the gun and put the two pieces in separate locked containers. That way your transporting a barrel and a separate receiver not a firearm. Now I'm not a lawyer so take it for what it's worth, just an idea.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Chipper said:


> My 2 cents. If your that worried about it field strip the gun and put the two pieces in separate locked containers. That way your transporting a barrel and a separate receiver not a firearm. Now I'm not a lawyer so take it for what it's worth, just an idea.


 Regardless of it being stripped or not. The serial numbered receiver is still a firearm. In any state . Parts on their own may be consider a crime in some states Follow the code separate ammo and weapon store it locked no access drivers compartment NOT in Glove Box.
Good to go.


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## Michael_Js (Dec 4, 2013)

Wow! It's sad "free" country we live in...So much for trying to be a law abiding citizen...

Peace,
Michael J.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Keep repeating the following when questioned: "I hereby invoke and refuse to waive my rights as afforded me by the 5th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America."

Sadly, there is now case law that simply refusing to answer invalidates your 5A right to not answer questions, thus creating PC. Specifically, not verbalizing your 'taking the 5th'.

Stating "I don't answer questions" or "I don't have to answer" has been twisted by the court to create PC for the officer.

And, of course, at this point the officer will pull every trick to hem you up.... including lying to you.

Just meander over to YouTube and search for _First Amendment Audit_ to see how desperate cops get to arrest someone...... with a camera.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Here in PA the cops can access info about your CCW from their computer in the cruiser. A co-worker was questioned about his CCW and guns in his truck during a routine traffic stop in Blair county.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> Went passing through a State that you do not have a permit or Licensed in. You come under Federal law. The law is trick about stops. It has to be in a lock container be unloaded and ammo not with weapon. Here is some good advice . If you have complied with all of that. Do not leave the holster laying on the seat. Ask me how I know this.
> 
> Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
> (Added Pub. L. 99-360, § 1(a), July 8, 1986, 100 Stat. 766.)
> ...


All that legal speak. Why can't they put it in plain English? What I was told at the range is that you carry your gun in one part of the car-say the trunk and your ammo in another part of the car, say the back seat. You can only go to and from the range, no side trips.

If I were pulled over with a firearm in the car the first thing I'd do is tell the officer I'm transporting it and where it is. These guys put their life on the line every day and they deserve to know. I wouldn't play around with hiding that from him/her.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Geez …. May God bless Texas.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

NM is different, I guess. 
Its common to open carry, and MY GUN IS LOADED.
If I'm going to a range, my guns are in cases or under the back seat, wrapped seperately in a shirt or hoodie.
I have been a felon, I just keep my hands on the steering wheel. Insurance and registration are in the console, right beside me.
If my wife is CC at the time, we would state that she was CC and her firearm is on her left side.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Annie said:


> All that legal speak. Why can't they put it in plain English? ............


Because 'plain English' doesn't hold up in court very well.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Most of PA is a pretty gun friendly state, except for Philly and Pittsburgh. And the politicians are trying to enact more gun restrictions but so far, so good. But the wife’s daughter lives in MD and that state is very liberal and not gun friendly. Ironically the step daughter is a LEO, but she is a lib, too. So I’m frequently visiting in MD. Because I’m a conservative and a prepper the daughter thinks I’m a right wing nut job conspiracy theorist. But I just want to “try” to comply with the law, if possible. And I refuse to travel unarmed.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

I seem to remember a few years back about a guy moving from Texas to Maine. He stopped in NJ to take a nap and ended up in prison. I found the article.

Reason #7,452 to Stay out of NJ ? TX Man Transporting Unloaded Firearms Through NJ Doing 3-5 Years in Prison


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

5th and 4th Amendment to The Constitution of These United States of America


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Annie said:


> All that legal speak. Why can't they put it in plain English? What I was told at the range is that you carry your gun in one part of the car-say the trunk and your ammo in another part of the car, say the back seat. You can only go to and from the range, no side trips.
> 
> If I were pulled over with a firearm in the car the first thing I'd do is tell the officer I'm transporting it and where it is. These guys put their life on the line every day and they deserve to know. I wouldn't play around with hiding that from him/her.


 Because doing it like this makes loop holes and more work of the system


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

. A co-worker was questioned about his CCW and guns in his truck during a routine traffic stop in Blair county. What constitutes a routine traffic stop? Because they don't like the way you look or what? I'm serious, been watching some of those 1st amendment audits, and not all LE are bad, some though give others a bad name. If you can body cam me, I can tape you too! Public space, no right to privacy.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

I don’t remember the details for the stop, but my co-worker friend was stopped for a violation. (Maybe speeding). When the cop ran his license it came up that my friend had a concealed permit. The cop asked him if he had a gun in the truck. So the stop was legitimate. And the cop wasn’t being a jackass. Everything was polite and correct. My friend was surprised that the CCW info was automatically included with the DMV info feedback.

Also, FYI...... In PA there is no requirement that you inform the cop that you have a gun. Some states, like Alaska, require you to immediately inform the cop that you have a gun as soon as he approaches you.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Thanks, that helps to clear the air.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

I remember back in the early to mid '90's when Oregon went to a "must issue" CWP as opposed to the formerly very limited issue as per the Sheriffs discretion. We were in the knife biz at the time, and were marketing/selling a knife we designed for military/LEO... so we rubbed elbows with a lot of cops.
LEO muckity mucks didn't quite know what to expect at first, so we heard through a few officers that they had been instructed: if a citizen with a CWP was pulled over for something minor, the officers were to let them go with a warning rather than write them up.
Sure enough, maybe a month later me and my girlfriend are pulled over... bulb was out in the brake light, legit stop.
He starts getting out his book right away to write a ticket. I told him I had a screwdriver AND bulbs in the glove box, but he was insisting on the ticket nonetheless.
Goes back to his cruiser to check me out.
Comes back and asks with a scowl "are you packing"?
"Yes officer".
"Is it on you, or just in the car"?
"I have a .45 holstered over my right hip".
He was obviously very angry - NOT my usual experience with LEO at ALL.
"Get that thing fixed then," he says and storms back to the cruiser in a huff.
Of course, now things are adjusted, everybody is used to it, and no problems to speak of.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Annie said:


> All that legal speak. Why can't they put it in plain English? What I was told at the range is that you carry your gun in one part of the car-say the trunk and your ammo in another part of the car, say the back seat. You can only go to and from the range, no side trips.
> 
> If I were pulled over with a firearm in the car the first thing I'd do is tell the officer I'm transporting it and where it is. These guys put their life on the line every day and they deserve to know. I wouldn't play around with hiding that from him/her.


Ma'am, as a retired Detective and father of 2 active police officers I appreciate your honesty and support for police.... But please, don't volunteer information regarding firearms you are transporting. There are cops out there that will treat you like a criminal for simply legally transporting legal firearms. Me personally, I am opposed to the so called legal transportation of firearms. I think the concept of it is dumb. If you carry a firearm, carry it loaded and ready for action. If I could carry a loaded firearm, so should you. But that's just me


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Because 'plain English' doesn't hold up in court very well.


I'm assuming you know that I know this. It's just that I long for simpler times. :tango_face_smile:


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

6811 said:


> Ma'am, as a retired Detective and father of 2 active police officers I appreciate your honesty and support for police.... But please, don't volunteer information regarding firearms you are transporting. There are cops out there that will treat you like a criminal for simply legally transporting legal firearms. Me personally, I am opposed to the so called legal transportation of firearms. I think the concept of it is dumb. If you carry a firearm, carry it loaded and ready for action. If I could carry a loaded firearm, so should you. But that's just me


Nominate for post of the day......


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

6811 said:


> Ma'am, as a retired Detective and father of 2 active police officers I appreciate your honesty and support for police.... But please, don't volunteer information regarding firearms you are transporting. There are cops out there that will treat you like a criminal for simply legally transporting legal firearms. Me personally, I am opposed to the so called legal transportation of firearms. I think the concept of it is dumb. If you carry a firearm, carry it loaded and ready for action. If I could carry a loaded firearm, so should you. But that's just me


Well thank you I will take that into consideration. I just always thought that was the thing to do, the way to handle it. I'm a law-abiding citizen I pay my taxes. I'm not a criminal I've got nothing to hide.

Sent from my SM-S337TL using Tapatalk


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Lots of innocent people that thought they had nothing to hide are sitting in prison. I’m not saying all cops are bad...... but a few are. And an awful lot of prosecutors don’t care about justice, but do care about their win/loss ratio. It isn’t necessary to be hostile toward the police, but it also isn’t necessary to consider them your friend. Be respectful but don’t volunteer any information that isn’t absolutely required by law. That’s why I started this thread. To find out exactly what is required by law if stopped with a gun in my car. My step daughter ( who is a MD LEO) has advised me that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHAT SO EVER should a person ever consent to a voluntary search.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Annie said:


> Well thank you I will take that into consideration. I just always thought that was the thing to do, the way to handle it. I'm a law-abiding citizen I pay my taxes. I'm not a criminal I've got nothing to hide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S337TL using Tapatalk


That's right Auntie, but at the same time, you don't have to SAY ANYTHING.
My thoughts are the less dealing with the police, the better. And, yes I am "MR Curtious" when interacting with police, I respect EVERYONE until given a reason not too.
It is just that there are too many variables. 
Scenerio- Your driving along, with firearm (I don't like the term weapon), in the trunk, and get pulled over for speeding, 61 MPH in a 55 zone.
You tell Officer X "I am going to the range, my rifle is in the trunk"
He then runs your rifle's serial number (which was given to you new, by your father), and tells you its registered as stolen.
You just got arrested, sent to booking, (with GOD knows whatever slime balls are there that day), fingerprinted, called your lawyer, and pay a 10% Bond (non refundable), and go home.
The next day, it turns out that the officer wrote one number wrong, when running your number, and its NOT THE right rifle.
Of course, the charges will be dropped, but you have been shamed, and have to go to court, to get your bond money paid back (NO GAURANTEE, since bond is not bail). Rifle will be at police station until you get all this straitened out. 
Your car probably got towed, and that is a separate scam, that youll have to pay, daily fee, plus towing, plus impound.

Better scenario
you get caught speeding, 61 in a 55
Officer X "You were speeding, I clocked you at 61 in a 55"
You "um, ok officer, I wasn't speeding, my cruise control was set at 55, I will see you in court", or "yes sir, didn't intentionaly go over, thanks, I will pay the fine"
No reason you have to tell anyone what is in your trunk.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Just remember. Anything you say can and will be used against you.

Against you. Not for you. Against you.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Some states Wisconsin is not one of them. Have a Duty to inform law. That means if you have any interaction with LEO your are required to inform them you have a firearm. They do not have to ask you, it is up to you you inform them. I have had interaction with LEO in other states . Except for one years ago harmless stuff. In states that my CC is ok I do inform never been an issue. In states Where it is not I lock it up according the Federal Regs again never an issue. I was stopped once in IL I informed officer I had a firearm
He ask where it was I told him in the tour pack in a locked case, unloaded and ammo in another bag. He never ask another question. I was politely reminded I was very close to a speeding citation. That was it.
The stop in Iowa in 1992 was more funny than serious when it was all over. Do not leave empty holster on the seat. It is not a crime but sure can make a New office nervous at 3am .


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Some states Wisconsin is not one of them. Have a Duty to inform law. That means if you have any interaction with LEO your are required to inform them you have a firearm. They do not have to ask you, it is up to you you inform them. I have had interaction with LEO in other states . Except for one years ago harmless stuff. In states that my CC is ok I do inform never been an issue. In states Where it is not I lock it up according the Federal Regs again never an issue. I was stopped once in IL I informed officer I had a firearm
He ask where it was I told him in the tour pack in a locked case, unloaded and ammo in another bag. He never ask another question. I was politely reminded I was very close to a speeding citation. That was it.
The stop in Iowa in 1992 was more funny than serious when it was all over. Do not leave empty holster on the seat. It is not a crime but sure can make a New office nervous at 3am .


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> Some states Wisconsin is not one of them. Have a Duty to inform law. That means if you have any interaction with LEO your are required to inform them you have a firearm. They do not have to ask you, it is up to you you inform them. I have had interaction with LEO in other states . Except for one years ago harmless stuff. In states that my CC is ok I do inform never been an issue. In states Where it is not I lock it up according the Federal Regs again never an issue. I was stopped once in IL I informed officer I had a firearm
> He ask where it was I told him in the tour pack in a locked case, unloaded and ammo in another bag. He never ask another question. I was politely reminded I was very close to a speeding citation. That was it.
> The stop in Iowa in 1992 was more funny than serious when it was all over. Do not leave empty holster on the seat. It is not a crime but sure can make a New office nervous at 3am .


See now, I thought that was the case. I thought we were supposed to. I can't remeber how or why I I got that into my head so I'll have to do my homework and check out what the laws are.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Annie said:


> See now, I thought that was the case. I thought we were supposed to. I can't remeber how or why I I got that into my head so I'll have to do my homework and check out what the laws are.


 Annie it all depends on your State. Not required in Wisconsin , but I have and will inform. I was rear end by a car when LEO showed up as I handed him my Drivers License and Insurance card I informed him I was CC. he had no issue with it.
Make sure I am in compliance with the State laws we are traveling in . Any doubt we secure them. Most of the time it is on the bikes and that makes you some what a target at times.
This sight comes in very handy some times.

https://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Annie said:


> Well thank you I will take that into consideration. I just always thought that was the thing to do, the way to handle it. I'm a law-abiding citizen I pay my taxes. I'm not a criminal I've got nothing to hide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S337TL using Tapatalk


Yes, that's exactly how it is.. You are not a criminal and there is nothing to hide. And who cares if you told police as a courtesy that you were transporting, its your right anyway... 2A for we the people... Unfortunately, there are cops out there who believes that only the authority should possess or be allowed to possess a firearm. Some of these cops are brain washed into believing guns are the cause of violence and anyone owning them are criminals in some way form or fashion. Some cops are also given incentives if they recover or make gun related arrest.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Just remember. Anything you say can and will be used against you.
> 
> Against you. Not for you. Against you.


This is the part of Miranda that I hate the most.... "Anything you say CAN". This is OK, but the " "AND WILL be used against you in a court of law..." Well that's screwed up, to me this means no matter what, I'm charging you and taking you to court... What if the person is innocent, do I still use his statement against him... Not fair


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

6811 said:


> This is the part of Miranda that I hate the most.... "Anything you say CAN". This is OK, but the " "AND WILL be used against you in a court of law..." Well that's screwed up, to me this means no matter what, I'm charging you and taking you to court... What if the person is innocent, do I still use his statement against him... Not fair


Welcome to the Gestapo State of America. Where you're guilty simply because you have a pulse, and you need to prove your innocence.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Welcome to the Gestapo State of America. Where you're guilty simply because you have a pulse, and you need to prove your innocence.


 Not really the point is to make it clear. keep your mouth shut. First thing they claim is I did not understand my rights.


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

MY SIL is a NJ State Trooper, He taught us the following:

#1 NEVER NEVER NEVER volunteer anything!
#2 Name Rank serial number Always be polite and respectful. PERIOD!
#3 NEVER NEVER NEVER consent to a "Voluntary Search" of your vehicle!

got it?


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

Annie said:


> See now, I thought that was the case. I thought we were supposed to. I can't remeber how or why I I got that into my head so I'll have to do my homework and check out what the laws are.


Yes, and you will hang yourself with YOUR very own rope....


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

I thought the guy in the video was doing great and holding his own, until the end. There was no reason for him to go off and start swearing and calling the cops names. Yes the cop was lying and being chicken shit. But starting the name calling served no purpose. If the cop had a body cam, the driver just lost all chance of beating the ticket in court. He should have followed his own advice and just kept silent.


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## Gunn (Jan 1, 2016)

StratMaster said:


> I remember back in the early to mid '90's when Oregon went to a "must issue" CWP as opposed to the formerly very limited issue as per the Sheriffs discretion. We were in the knife biz at the time, and were marketing/selling a knife we designed for military/LEO... so we rubbed elbows with a lot of cops.
> LEO muckity mucks didn't quite know what to expect at first, so we heard through a few officers that they had been instructed: if a citizen with a CWP was pulled over for something minor, the officers were to let them go with a warning rather than write them up.
> Sure enough, maybe a month later me and my girlfriend are pulled over... bulb was out in the brake light, legit stop.
> He starts getting out his book right away to write a ticket. I told him I had a screwdriver AND bulbs in the glove box, but he was insisting on the ticket nonetheless.
> ...


I have been pulled over twice in the last 22 years in Orygun. Both times the LEO asked me if I was carrying as they walked up to the vehicle. It is linked to the ODL. I keep my hands on the wheel unless told otherwise. Both times the LEO was very understanding. One even asked what I carry and then started talking to me about the "Pros and Cons" of that model.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Smitty901 said:


> Not really the point is to make it clear. keep your mouth shut. First thing they claim is I did not understand my rights.


Half the time, your rights suddenly don't exist when you're interacting with LEOs.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Half the time, your rights suddenly don't exist when you're interacting with LEOs.


 Your rights always exist . Once a LEO reads you the Miranda card you are likely already arrested. Before that they can ask question , you do not have to respond except in some cases. In Wisconsin you do not have to produce an ID. However if driving you must produce a License . If you do not ID your self and office may detain you to figure out who you are. 
Many years of riding I have many times been stopped in places like Milwaukee and other bad cities at 2 -3am. generally heading some where but in an area where LE has good reason to wonder about. Only a couple times have I encounter a jerk.

Wisconsin:
"State law limits what concealed carry data police can access, and even how they can analyze their own data.

Police in Wisconsin are allowed to consult the database of concealed carry permit holders only to determine whether a permit someone has or claims to have is valid, or whether someone lied on their permit application.

Statutory language also bans police from storing information they obtained under the allowable circumstances, and they cannot "sort or access information regarding vehicle stops, investigations, civil or criminal offenses or other activities" based on the person's permit status....."


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

But starting the name calling served no purpose. If the cop had a body cam, the driver just lost all chance of beating the ticket in court. He should have followed his own advice and just kept silent. 

I fail to see why name calling and such makes you guilty of anything when the LEO was being so evasive of questions asked by the driver. In cop shows I've watched its always just tell the truth, but they don't seem to be able to. I have a close friend on the local PD, talks straight and to the point. He doesn't need backup, he is a black belt, but never has used that to bully anyone. Is the officer intentionally holding his weapon or just a natural stance?


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Smitty901 said:


> Your rights always exist . Once a LEO reads you the Miranda card you are likely already arrested. Before that they can ask question , you do not have to respond except in some cases. In Wisconsin you do not have to produce an ID. However if driving you must produce a License . If you do not ID your self and office may detain you to figure out who you are.
> Many years of riding I have many times been stopped in places like Milwaukee and other bad cities at 2 -3am. generally heading some where but in an area where LE has good reason to wonder about. Only a couple times have I encounter a jerk.
> ........"


Unfortunately, that's not the way it always goes. People get arrested for walking down the street taking photos. People get arrested for jogging and they don't have a physical ID with them. People get arrested quoting the law as it's written. People get arrested for asserting their right to remain silent because the LEO lies and says you MUST answer.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

1skrewsloose said:


> But starting the name calling served no purpose. If the cop had a body cam, the driver just lost all chance of beating the ticket in court. He should have followed his own advice and just kept silent.
> 
> I fail to see why name calling and such makes you guilty of anything when the LEO was being so evasive of questions asked by the driver. In cop shows I've watched its always just tell the truth, but they don't seem to be able to. I have a close friend on the local PD, talks straight and to the point. He doesn't need backup, he is a black belt, but never has used that to bully anyone. Is the officer intentionally holding his weapon or just a natural stance?


Cops and judges are "people". Some good. Some bad. Some jackasses. But most all people take offense at being cussed or yelled at. So when the driver goes into court, and the judge views a recording of the driver swearing and name calling, just who's version of the traffic stop is the judge going to believe? Truth-be-told, the driver would probably have little chance of beating the ticket under the best of circumstances. He will have no chance if this body cam recording surfaces. I'm not defending the cop. He was acting like a jerk. Especially since he said turn at the intersection, not the driveway. I'm just saying the the driver is only hurting himself by sounding off like that.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

You are correct, just give me the ticket and I'll be on my way. Agreed.....a driveway is not an intersection. What about this crossing county line and out of his jurisdiction? I forgot, they have the right to pursue a suspect cause they had the lights on. Do they teach this in cop school? Btw, I'm getting a dash cam, see them being sold on TV all the time, to prove who is at fault in an accident. To add, we all should have body cams the way things are going!


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I thought it curious that the guy had laminated sheets of the law with him. And the LEO asks him if he is a lawyer.


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## Ken S LaTrans (Jul 24, 2018)

Entryteam said:


> First.....pretextual traffic stops are illegal on most states. So there is that. Further, a CCW permit is NOT PC for a stop OR a search. You are NOT required to answer ANY question about what is or is not in your vehicle, and REFUSAL to answer any question is NOT PC for a search either. It may talk you into a ticket, but they have got to have a criminal action/violation in order to even stop you in the first place. Otherwise, you will eventually profit from the lawsuit which should follow.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> -E


Addressed very well already. I will add this. Arizona does NOT have a CCW database attached to the AZDL, and DPS here treats CCW information as confidential. That being said, every state is different, but what is NOT different is your rights under the Constitution.

I guess that spending my career in Arizona, which has always been an open carry, then a concealed carry, then finally and wisely...a constitutional carry state...I never got worked up over a gun in a car. I assumed there was one. Meh. It's a right, not a privilege and unless you're obviously impaired...and as long as you don't play with yours, I won't play with mine...and we can conduct ourselves like adults, there was not going to be a problem.

I appreciated someone telling me beforehand if they were armed, and it earned MAJOR points on the scale of _Citation or Verbal Warning_ and how it got tipped.

_"Officer, I just want to let you know...I have my permit, and I am carrying. It is in a holster on my right hip. Here is my license, registration, and insurance card. What would you like me to do now?"_

"Cool, thank you for letting me know. Please, don't touch it, and I won't have to touch mine okay?" - Absent a warrant, or any obvious signs on intoxication, my usual closing of the contact was "Thank you Mister Driver. I pulled you over because your right brake light is out. There's a 24 hour AutoZone down the road, why not stop and get it replaced before someone hits you or you get a ticket. Have a nice night".

"You're not going to write me a ticket?"

"No, I mean...I_ can if you want me to_...but I'm pretty sure you're not a desperate criminal or otherwise nefarious character, so just get it taken care of okay?"

"Um...sure"

See, I was never a traffic whore...but about once a month a lieutenant would come into briefing and say we had to do more _active enforcement_ on the traffic side...so to make him happy, I'd ramp up my verbal warnings (which actually drove him crazy). But the reality is in the district I worked we had more to worry about than extremely minor equipment and minor speed violations, so making some decent regular guy's day longer and writing BS punitive citations was not on my list of shit to do. Woe be unto you if you were DUI...but I gave warnings whenever I could.

Some folks are going to scream about the 2nd and 4th Amendment and having no duty to inform ad illegal search and seizure...okay...I get it, and I agree with you. BUT...what they're not taking into consideration is this: If you let me know that you're armed _out of courtesy_, then reciprocated courtesy would flow in your direction too because you're inasmuch as telling me "By the way, I have nothing to hide" because while the presence of a gun is NOT probable cause for a search in AZ, it is a pretty good indicator that you are not worried about anything you have in the vehicle anyway, you're not nervous about what I might find if I did search, and so I am not going to even ask for consent to search. Your attitude, demeanor, and general disposition don't pique my _Spidey Senses_...you fall into the "Card Carrying Good Guy" group, so _have a nice day and be safe_.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

I live in PA and I have already decided that if stopped in my home state, I would do exactly as Ken stated above. And unless the cop is a total butt hole I don’t think I would have a problem. My concern is when I travel thru Maryland. Md. is not as bad as NJ or NY, but they are not very gun friendly and I have heard horror stories where folks were forced to spend a lot if $ to retrieve their legally transported guns that were confiscated unjustly. If possible, I would just prefer the trooper stopping me down in Maryland not know anything about any weapons I have in my possession. That’s my reasoning for asking about probable cause and such. Some anti-gun DAs and some police seem to purposely and unjustly confiscate legally transported guns just so they can force you to spend your money in court to reclaim your guns. And Maryland is full of anti-gun liberals.


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## Ken S LaTrans (Jul 24, 2018)

Chiefster23 said:


> I live in PA and I have already decided that if stopped in my home state, I would do exactly as Ken stated above. And unless the cop is a total butt hole I don't think I would have a problem. My concern is when I travel thru Maryland. Md. is not as bad as NJ or NY, but they are not very gun friendly and I have heard horror stories where folks were forced to spend a lot if $ to retrieve their legally transported guns that were confiscated unjustly. If possible, I would just prefer the trooper stopping me down in Maryland not know anything about any weapons I have in my possession. That's my reasoning for asking about probable cause and such. Some anti-gun DAs and some police seem to purposely and unjustly confiscate legally transported guns just so they can force you to spend your money in court to reclaim your guns. And Maryland is full of anti-gun liberals.


New York is a giant pain in the dick, even for vacationing officers and retired officers carrying on LEOSA. I went to NYC with my wife in June for a 4 day medical conference, and before I went I called NYSP and NYPD to clarify how they were "interpreting" LEOSA and the exemption for magazine limits for LEOSA permits, and I couldn't get a straight answer. So, I erred on the side of caution and carried a pair of Glock 36s. I didn't have an official interaction with NYPD, so I can't speak to their attitude and demeanor in a CCW situation, but I didn't want to be the guy who caught a case for magazine capacity and the subsequent trial and lawsuit.


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## Bigfoot63 (Aug 11, 2016)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Because 'plain English' doesn't hold up in court very well.


Actually, plain English holds up well in court... But it does not leave any wiggle room for interpretation and twisting!


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Bigfoot63 said:


> Actually, plain English holds up well in court... But it does not leave any wiggle room for interpretation and twisting!


 " That depends on what your definition of is , is." Is was plain English.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Bigfoot63 said:


> Actually, plain English holds up well in court....


For testimony, yes.

For written law, not so much.


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## Bigfoot63 (Aug 11, 2016)

Smitty901 said:


> " That depends on what your definition of is , is." Is was plain English.


That is where the wiggle room comes in!


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