# SAS vs everyone else.



## Jackangus (Sep 1, 2016)

Lets talk special forces.
Is there anyone who disputes the British SAS are the best in the world?
Take your pride out of it.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Lol....more like #4 after any U.S. special forces, the Spetznaz and the Israeli Sayeret.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I think I'l wait for @Old SF Guy to weigh in on this one, as he's probably the one who has personal knowledge and won't go by personal feelings.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

No doubt the SAS is outstanding. Best? I would not pretend to have the insight to determine that. The US has top notch operators too.


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## Jackangus (Sep 1, 2016)

RedLion said:


> Lol....more like #4 after any U.S. special forces, the Spetznaz and the Israeli Sayeret.


Get a life, anyone who knows special forces knows the SAS are the best.


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## unclefred (Nov 28, 2017)

Lay off that haggis, Angus.


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## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

I can see SAS being the best. That's why all the rest of the country's send there teams to train in Britain. LOL


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Post deleted out of respect. My bad y'all


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## 23897 (Apr 18, 2017)

They’ve got the best teeth (or at least they used to).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

ha ha.....I have worked with British, Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, German, Polish, Russian, as well all the America's various SOF units.

When it comes to training, the British have the standard that our own courses are modeled after. But one of the areas that the Russians have a bit more advantage is that they will let people die (not that they want them to) during training and those soldiers know it, where as the others have a sense that the training will only go so far.

As far as the level of training. I think the Russians have some of the most aggressive hand to hand and weapons training regimes out there, where as western cultures have the most thought provoking, and I mean that in the sense of one having to think through a problem and technical regimes.

It's like comparing various fruit and vegetables. You really have to score them differently.

For aggression and violence - Russian based
For individual capability and ability - UK based
For team level ability - US
For a win without concern - Russia
For a win with Justice in mind - the US
For a Win with morality in Mind - the UK
Technology enabled - US

I know that isn't what many want to hear, but that's how I see the world. We are all individuals and as such any groups are made up by strong and weak links. 
It is the training, and the mind set behind the application of that training that makes the difference.

m2c
truth is if you know one unit from any SOF group....well then you know one unit......they all are very unique.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

As far as training goes, SF, SAS and SBS and others send their troops around to each others for training.

I know both SBS and SAS members or were, but active when I trained with them.

I spent two weeks in an SAS sniper course 20+ years ago.

I also spent time in a SOTIC sniper course.

I will say this, they are ALL excellent fighters as individuals, only a smug ass would think any one organization is better than another.

During one class, one of my guys an Irishman was listening to an SAS instructor talking about capping rebels in northern Ireland.

He got real pissed, got up and punched the instructor in the face! That started a five minute fight, a real donnybrook!

Later I made sure that I was never between them when on the range. 

Being a smug ass myself, I out shot both of them at the 1,000 yard range not to consider the rest present.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

It is not the initial training that makes the man or the unit... You don't just go through some course and come out Rambo or Jason Borne.

I went through constant training courses learning a variety of things, after I had earned my Beret. It's a never ending cycle of training. The same holds true for all SOF. I trained with some of the big named MMA guys, I have shot hand guns with a 9 time American champion pistol shooter. I have rigged explosives with top notch demolitions experts. I have done advanced urban combat training with numerous Swat teams around the US.

Out of the bag, the courses breed a person who is a basic operator, capable of learning and understanding how to employ what he/she learns. To try an rank the "units" would be an impossible task, as you would have to look at the training level of every individual and every team, and then try to get into the heads of them all to understand the levels of motivation and quit in each.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Old SF Guy said:


> It is not the initial training that makes the man or the unit... You don't just go through some course and come out Rambo or Jason Borne.
> 
> I went through constant training courses learning a variety of things, after I had earned my Beret. It's a never ending cycle of training. The same holds true for all SOF. I trained with some of the big named MMA guys, I have shot hand guns with a 9 time American champion pistol shooter. I have rigged explosives with top notch demolitions experts. I have done advanced urban combat training with numerous Swat teams around the US.
> 
> Out of the bag, the courses breed a person who is a basic operator, capable of learning and understanding how to employ what he/she learns. To try an rank the "units" would be an impossible task, as you would have to look at the training level of every individual and every team, and then try to get into the heads of them all to understand the levels of motivation and quit in each.


Thanks, buddy. I knew you'd bring insight and maturity to the penis-measuring BS.


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## Gator Monroe (Jul 29, 2017)

Screw the measurements , it's cut or uncut that counts ...


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Jackangus said:


> Get a life, anyone who knows special forces knows the SAS are the best.


Lol, cupcake....


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> ha ha.....I have worked with British, Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, German, Polish, Russian, as well all the America's various SOF units.
> 
> When it comes to training, the British have the standard that our own courses are modeled after. But one of the areas that the Russians have a bit more advantage is that they will let people die (not that they want them to) during training and those soldiers know it, where as the others have a sense that the training will only go so far.
> 
> ...


_"For a win with Justice in mind - the US
For a Win with morality in Mind - the UK"_

That's a very interesting distinction between the two. I guess it might be hard for me to think of those to principles as being independent on the face of it. Would you care to elaborate? I'd like to know what you have to say.


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## Jackangus (Sep 1, 2016)

This was a slight windup to my old American friends, I knew there would be a few bites.

I do believe SAS are the best, but that is just my opinion and I know pretty much nothing. but I complety agree it's very subjective and SAS will be better at some things, Navy Seals might be better at something else and so on.
Anyone who does special forces has my respect, whatever country they are from.

Some interesting stuff from SOCOM42 and Old SF Guy. They both sound like they know what they are talking about.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Jackangus said:


> Anyone who does special forces has my respect, whatever country they are from.
> 
> Some interesting stuff from SOCOM42 and Old SF Guy. They both sound like they know what they are talking about.


Both have been around the block once or twice. I've been around long enough to have learned that I trust their opinions.


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## Jackangus (Sep 1, 2016)

unclefred said:


> Lay off that haggis, Angus.


Love this.

It has been ages since I had the brown stuff. If you think about what's in it, it's hard to eat it.
If I think about it too much I gag.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Jackangus said:


> This was a slight windup to my old American friends, I knew there would be a few bites.
> 
> I do believe SAS are the best, *but that is just my opinion and I know pretty much nothing.* but I complety agree it's very subjective and SAS will be better at some things, Navy Seals might be better at something else and so on.
> Anyone who does special forces has my respect, whatever country they are from.
> ...


I will summarize this very informative thread, with your very own findings and in your words.......

"that is just my opinion and I know pretty much nothing".

"Some interesting stuff from SOCOM42 and Old SF Guy. They both sound like they know what they are talking about".


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Annie said:


> _"For a win with Justice in mind - the US
> For a Win with morality in Mind - the UK"_
> 
> That's a very interesting distinction between the two. I guess it might be hard for me to think of those to principles as being independent on the face of it. Would you care to elaborate? I'd like to know what you have to say.


Yeah I get that most people don't see much of a distinction between winning with Morals and winning having accomplished Justice.

In my mind I see them different. Morally, no nation would risk so many lives and continue a war that has killed so many over the acts of a few....But a Justice seeking people would. A Moral based military will have their soldiers do what they think is morally correct... a justice based military may cause soldiers to compromise some morals to achieve justice.

an example... shooting a non-combatant woman, I believe that a moral person could not do it, nor would their country expect them to, even if casualties resulted from not doing it. American soldiers have had to do this several times, as the woman stood in front of man as he fired between her legs. Or where the woman would pick up a weapon by the sling and carry it to another man to use....kids have even been used to do this.

In those times, I consider it morally wrong to kill someone who doesn't really want to fight me, but is just doing what their man or dad is telling them to do. Over in their culture, they have no choice but to do what he says. But considering Justice, they are abetting someone trying to kill us, and deserve to suffer the same penalty.

I'm not saying that the UK wouldn't do this, I just think they would have a greater degree of issues with it.

I called in 3 JDAMs on a compound that had an entire family in it, without trying to get them to come out. They where using an anti aircraft gun on the roof to shoot at our AC overhead. They had many kids and extended family living within that compound.
I killed every one of them, by striking it 3 times. But in my mind it was justified...In my mind it was not morally the right thing to do though,


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## NewRiverGeorge (Jan 2, 2018)

Last summer at one of our local resorts I ran into a group of Brits who said they were Royal Marines. They didn't tell us much about what they were doing here, perhaps some training in the mountains or rivers nearby. They were a great bunch of guys but the one thing that really amazed me was how long those guys could hold their breath underwater. They would submerge in the deep end of the pool and....just stayed there. It made all of us and the life guards a little uneasy how long they would stay down. It was really a sight to see. 

I realize this doesn't add anything to this debate, but it sure made an impression on me!


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

The non conventional warfare joint inter-service cooperation dates back to the second world war.

Winston Churchill is the father of the evolved SF units.

After Dunkirk, the bulldog still wanted to bite, even though there was little strength to do so.

Winnie formed up the commando units which were based on his combat experience with the Boers in South Africa.

They became fantastically trained and tough outfits.

They struck to the north, bringing hell to the Germans occupying Norway and Denmark.

Number 3 and 4 Commando units did a historic raid on the Lofoten Islands.

They destroyed fish oil factories, huge oil storage tanks, a weather station and plenty of Germans.

These were important targets, oil was for explosives, weather stations reports aided the forecasting continental 

weather patterns which in turn played a major part in battle planning. 

It was from those arctic stations that the weather break for the sixth of June 1944 was forecast from.

We kicked the Germans (meteorologist) out of Greenland and took over the weather station there for ourselves.

We occupied the island for the war's duration. 

That move denied the forecasting ability and creolite to the Germans.

The Royal Navy chewed up a few German destroyers in the fjord as well during the raid.

The Germans were so pissed that they executed the captured Brit Commando's and buried them in unmarked holes.

The British commandos motto was, "plan thoroughly, strike boldly, retire swiftly", 

that motto lives on today with the SAS's, "who dares wins".

Right after our entry into the war, FDR got Winnie to take American troops and train them with the commando units.

That was the beginning of our current day multi service SF units.

Yes the Brits led the way and they are still up front together with us.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

I will have to admit that this is pretty hardcore.....



> SAS soldier 'chopped off ISIS thug's head with SHOVEL and used his gun to kill more militants'
> 
> The British sergeant was said to have run out of ammunition during a bloody battle in Afghanistan


SAS soldier 'chopped off ISIS thug's head with SHOVEL and used his gun to kill more militants' - Mirror Online


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## unclefred (Nov 28, 2017)

Jackangus said:


> Love this.
> 
> It has been ages since I had the brown stuff. If you think about what's in it, it's hard to eat it.
> If I think about it too much I gag.


I hope some day to try it. It'll probably never happen around here but if I ever make it over there. I could then feel I had experienced something from my Mom's Scott ancestry.


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## Jackangus (Sep 1, 2016)

A Watchman said:


> I will summarize this very informative thread, with your very own findings and in your words.......
> 
> "that is just my opinion and I know pretty much nothing".
> 
> "Some interesting stuff from SOCOM42 and Old SF Guy. They both sound like they know what they are talking about".


To be fair, I do know a bit more than I am letting on. I was being humble.
I do realise my statement was wrong, different tools for different jobs.
But I agree Socom42 and Old SF Guy may know their stuff too.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

The SAS is one of the best, and it is at the forefront; but it can be, and is equaled by American Special Forces. The SAS guy that I saw, would underwhelm most folks, because they stupidly judge by sight. He was frumpy-like, small framed; and if he was not in uniform, he would go unnoticed. 
But then the Thai SF team that I saw would under-whelm too. They came to the unit to qualify some SF guys in HALO, and they did that. I jumped static line myself, I was not qualified in much of anything, except Airborne.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Jackangus said:


> To be fair, I do know a bit more than I am letting on. I was being humble.
> I do realise my statement was wrong, different tools for different jobs.
> But I agree Socom42 and Old SF Guy may know their stuff too.


Hey Jack, I was just jackin' ya up, huh?


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Its not as easy as people can understand. Each unit is specially trained for mission types, in the SEALs for example. We have DELTA, Compartment (CIA? group) and so many other elites just in the USA.
I am just glad we have what we have to protect us..
Its like comparing best guitarist in the world.. No one is the best, but all can play better than 99.99% of the world


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## Jackangus (Sep 1, 2016)

A Watchman said:


> Hey Jack, I was just jackin' ya up, huh?


I love you Watchman, you have helped me out more than once.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Jackangus said:


> To be fair, I do know a bit more than I am letting on. I was being humble.
> I do realise my statement was wrong, different tools for different jobs.
> But I agree Socom42 and Old SF Guy may know their stuff too.


No worries Jack...nthing wrong with a little baiting and good natured ribbing... I've been over to Hereford and Pool numerous times and have great friends across the Pond there and in Australia and New Zealand as well. I meet with them twice a year (once there and once here) to do things together so that we can each teach what we have learned.

I've been brassed-up a time or three and worked very well with our buddies across the ponds while in asskrackistan and Iraq. If you know the name of the bloke that got burned very badly during SERE training, I've met him a few times, but never can remember his name.

I got some good stories of a couple of mates who were over here and I took them to a Karaoke bar.... or the time I had to go there and brief GCHQ and stayed up until 0430 drinking with a couple mates and I had to brief, while they threw up outside sleeping in the car.

Good times...


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> Yeah I get that most people don't see much of a distinction between winning with Morals and winning having accomplished Justice.
> 
> In my mind I see them different. Morally, no nation would risk so many lives and continue a war that has killed so many over the acts of a few....But a Justice seeking people would. A Moral based military will have their soldiers do what they think is morally correct... a justice based military may cause soldiers to compromise some morals to achieve justice.
> 
> ...


Yes, that makes a lot of sense.



> I called in 3 JDAMs on a compound that had an entire family in it, without trying to get them to come out. They where using an anti aircraft gun on the roof to shoot at our AC overhead. They had many kids and extended family living within that compound.
> I killed every one of them, by striking it 3 times. But in my mind it was justified...In my mind it was not morally the right thing to do though.


I think it was the right call and was justifiable since the enemy had no morals. It's the only way to (hopefully) stop those kinds of tactics in the future.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Those who have never been to war have absolutely no idea how ugly a thing it is.

But, I can tell you this, it has a profound effect on those that have.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Those who have never been to war have absolutely no idea how ugly a thing it is.
> 
> But, I can tell you this, it has a profound effect on those that have.


I saw the after affects of Nam. It's wasn't pleasant. They wouldn't take me. 4F.

If war breaks out, I won't be eager. Having to worry about my wife getting hit is not high on my list. I will do what I need to do but I'm really not looking forward to it.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Those who have never been to war have absolutely no idea how ugly a thing it is.
> 
> But, I can tell you this, it has a profound effect on those that have.


And they are all negative, along with the incessant nightmares.

The shock of the aftermath of a firefight with parts and pieces scattered all over image will never leave, neither will the guilt.

Neither will the stench of those making up part of your firing table ever leave your nose or memory.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

inceptor said:


> I saw the after affects of Nam. It's wasn't pleasant. They wouldn't take me. 4F.
> 
> If war breaks out, I won't be eager. Having to worry about my wife getting hit is not high on my list. I will do what I need to do but I'm really not looking forward to it.


Inceptor, consider yourself fortunate, I think what will happen here will not be the same, deadly, yes, as savage I doubt it.

You will learn swiftly, you will need to keep the faith, remember there will be Quislings all about, be on guard.

You already have advantages, guns and shooting, personal preps and most of all an awareness of things to come.

Morality is thrown aside for survival, you are not part of a fire team, rifle squad or platoon, you are for you and yours, keep it that way.


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