# Civil War 2: Defensive Measures



## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

This next Civil War is not going to be like anything the United States has ever experienced. There are many divisions and groups within the United States, it is almost impossible to keep track of them all. Many simpletons believe it'll just be a fight between the left and the right. And some think it will simply be "whites vs. everyone else." I hate to break it to you, but thats not how 4th generation warfare works. No conflict in recent history has ever had only 2 actors involved. It is going to be a free-for-all royal-rumble between hundreds of individual guerrilla organizations; all fighting to secure their interests in the U.S.. The next Civil War will see the formal emergence of AT LEAST the following groups.

1. Violent Socialist Party (A break-away group from establishment Democrats)
2. Patriot Party (Die-hard Constitutionalism, break-away from Republican establishment)
3. Al Shabaab (A violent Somali group spreading in the North)
4. Hizballah (Well trained Iranian guerrillas already caught infiltrating U.S.)
5. Thousands of different local Militia groups (Will most likely join the Patriot Party)
6. Various Mexican Paramilitary Groups: Trinitarios, Los Zetas, Sinaloa Cartel, MS-13 
7. Large Biker Gangs: Hells Angels, Mongols, Etc&#8230;..
11. White Supremacists: Aryan Brotherhood, KKK, etc.
12. Black Supremacists: New Black Panthers
13. Muslim Brotherhood (And their various proxy NGOs)
14. Big business / International establishment (Ruling class and their corporate security forces)
15. Foreign Governments: Mexico, Venezuela, Iran, Russia, China, N.K., Canada
16. Prominent families and their mercenaries

&#8230;. Just to name a few

Chances are, one of these groups already operates in your area and I'm willing to bet that you're unaware of it. First, you need to find out WHO is in your area. Then, you need to determine their level of organization, numbers, and capabilities / sophistication. Finally, you need to prepare a defense in case the war breaks out and they decide to occupy your town.

For that last part, you'll need to familiarize yourself with defensive tactics, check out this video. And feel free to download it.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

I was always told the best defense is a good offense and not to wait for things to happen.


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

I would argue the opposite. The best offense is a good defense. If your enemy keeps getting split up and lured into traps, then who's actually on the offensive? Why was Stonewall so effective during the Valley Campaign? He had several thousand LESS soldiers than the Union forces, but kept winning. Why? He kept splitting up the union forces and making them run into traps.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

We live in a rural area, in the part of Florida that is still considered to be The South. There are a lot of Good Ol Boys, and not much "diversity".

However, not too far away is a city that is actually the largest in the US, by land mass. That is Jacksonville.
HERE, there is "diversity" from all over the world. The Caribbean, Central America, parts of Africa such as Somalia and Ethiopia. 
At present, the biggest problem there is violent drug gangs made up of young black males. However, if there were wide spread violent unrest, there is no telling who or what would come out of the wood work.

But I don't think that would spread out here. There are enough guys with deer rifles and shotguns to nip it in the bud, and there are really no "targets" terrorists of any variety would be interested in.

As for us personally, we have a homestead on a dead end dirt road, 6 miles outside a one stop light town. We are off the "beaten path".


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

rice paddy daddy said:


> We live in a rural area, in the part of Florida that is still considered to be The South..


I lived in Tampa for 3 years, part of my contingency plan was to evacuate to the swamps in Zephyrhills.

And here's why:
1. 3 different Freshwater springs
2. Unlimited supply of alligator meat
3. Heavy armor vehicles can't operate in swamps
4. Bombs / explosives / missiles don't do well in swamps.. they just toss up mud... (unless of course they're air-burst)
5. Napalm doesn't go very far in swamps
6. Infantry moves slowly in swamps
7. Air-assault doesn't drop in swamps
8. Helicopters have a hard time finding landing zones
9. Plenty of overhead concealment...

Etc....

Florida is great place to find yourself in during SHTF... you just gotta know where to go.


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

duplicate


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

Here are a few pictures for you to check out. Check out the construction of that concrete pillbox. Just a bunch of concrete bags saturated with water and stacked on top of each other. They eventually harden and the paper bags deteriorate, simple stuff. Don't forget about bollards. You can make improvised bollards out of concrete parking blocks. Just use an auger to drill a 2' hole and lay the parking blocks upright in the hole. 
View attachment 101951
View attachment 101953
View attachment 101955


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## jimcosta (Jun 11, 2017)

Thank You Verba Bellum for the great information. I am going over it again.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I've always said that if civil war comes it won't be a north/south thing, or even a left/right thing. I see more of a Balkanization then anything else. Many different factions, many different regions, all looking to get a piece of their version of what they think America should be. I don't know that there will be any winners.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Prepared One said:


> I've always said that if civil war comes it won't be a north/south thing, or even a left/right thing. I see more of a Balkanization then anything else. Many different factions, many different regions, all looking to get a piece of their version of what they think America should be. I don't know that there will be any winners.


It won't be about who's right... it'll be about who's left.


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

jimcosta said:


> Thank You Verba Bellum for the great information. I am going over it again.


My pleasure, check out the links in the video description box. I posted links to a few military field manuals that cover this topic in a little more detail.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Picture of fighting positions are they same ones that are in the army infantry book for when I was first in . When it comes out here we will see you coming good luck


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I prefer freedom of movement instead of being pinned down in a bunker.


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I prefer freedom of movement instead of being pinned down in a bunker.


:tango_face_grin: Fair enough. If your intel is good, then you won't run into any surprises. But if it's not, you could mosey straight on into a hornets nest. I prefer cover, concealment and evasion instead of overt operations. The one who's spotted first gets shot first. If you're good at denial ops, and you plan it right, you'll never be pinned down by infantry, you'll be the one doing the pinning. And, I would always recommend that you have at least 2 escape routes planned in advance. It's never good to be cornered with no way out. That's why I mention tunnels in the video.


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

I'd like to steer the conversation in the direction initially intended. This post is about defense. And more specifically, ways it can be accomplished, The debate surrounding defense and offense can go on ad nauseam. And I agree 100%, it is a debate worthy of undertaking. But if we could collaborate and share our collective knowledge on defensive tactics, this thread could become an excellent source of reference. No offense.. hahaha :vs_laugh: pun intended.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Get to know your neighbors , if in a rural area.. Stock pile food and supplies. Come up with plans to protect the areas. So many variables.


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

Knowing your terrain is essential to forming a good defense. Free topographical maps can be downloaded here https://viewer.nationalmap.gov/basic/

You can have the maps printed on A1 or 2'x3' at any print shop for about $5


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## jimcosta (Jun 11, 2017)

I am part of a 50 adult group survival retreat in Florida. I would appreciate a review of our defensive plans.

*Let me start with a post I made on another thread a week ago:*

First of all lets play a mind game. If we take any defensive location for the SHTF event, lets draw a circle around it so that it takes in 60 persons. (the size of the circle does not matter as any position will have 60 persons around it at differing ranges.)
Now let's assume you have X number of adults in your group.

What is the probability that (four times X) intruders come together to outnumber you? The four times is a very low number of Force Multiplier by being in a prepared defensive position. This number is the High Probability of danger to you.

Next what is the probability of that group locating you and your hidden supplies? That is the Low Probability number.

This might give you a range of say 30% to 5% danger to you if you dig in and hide your location well.
Over time the High number should decrease as the 60 persons within your circle die out.
So my point here is to not only defensively prepare yourself but also do whatever you can to hide yourself.

*Here is a link to two articles generally about our defensive plan.*

Security Overall Plan

Security Focus Group

*Other Security Articles on that website:*

*Security	(Page Number & Panel Number)* 
..2 ...14... Security Focus Group.
..4 ...24... Security Overall Plan
..5 ...38... Communications
..5 ...41... Local Defense Only.
..5 ...43... Bear Proof Doors
..5 ...45... Cheap Uniforms
..5 ...32... Gunsmith Manual

*Note: * Nothing there gives our location away. Some details are red herrings.

I would appreciate all SERIOUS comments. They would be a great help to me. Thanks


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Verba Bellum said:


> This next Civil War is not going to be like anything the United States has ever experienced. There are many divisions and groups within the United States, it is almost impossible to keep track of them all. Many simpletons believe it'll just be a fight between the left and the right. And some think it will simply be "whites vs. everyone else." I hate to break it to you, but thats not how 4th generation warfare works. No conflict in recent history has ever had only 2 actors involved. It is going to be a free-for-all royal-rumble between hundreds of individual guerrilla organizations; all fighting to secure their interests in the U.S.. The next Civil War will see the formal emergence of AT LEAST the following groups.
> 
> 1. Violent Socialist Party (A break-away group from establishment Democrats)
> 2. Patriot Party (Die-hard Constitutionalism, break-away from Republican establishment)
> ...


Many true points here... The issue is not how we are different....but how we are the same....example? The blacks, Muslim Brotherhood, Al shabab, Iran, etc will have a reason to join together....
So to will the Aryan brotherhood, biker gangs, militia, and even the mexican drug cartels. The key will be who will the other countries endorse or join, and who will the wealthy finance?

The cartels need no money...nor do the arabs... The splinter groups, socialist, Aryan Nation, and militias do. The wealthy industrialist lose all money when nobody works, nobody buys, and nobody invests....Electronic currency has its limitations....as does "Investment properties, etc.

In the end it will come down to ideas....we, here in the Americas... don't really like government that much...and religion is a personal thing.....I'm betting on my ability to make alliances over some ******* ****er spouting covert or die.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

jimcosta said:


> I am part of a 50 adult group survival retreat in Florida. I would appreciate a review of our defensive plans.
> 
> *Let me start with a post I made on another thread a week ago:*
> 
> ...


In all honesty....when you have to put thoughts in like " a spare long gun in case of malfunctions" it shows a serious lack of skill. Not that having extra weapons is bad.... but in todays world, were there re literally 100,000's of combat veterans....an unskilled group will lose. It does come down to skill and tactics. Your tactics are good against most low skilled, low strengthed threats.... a competing group, say one that is keen on dominating areas and simply using you as an expansion of force...would easily defeat you.... not by killing you....but rather by out evil'ing you and making you understand joining is better than dying. The mongols perfected this and many have done so since....the latest being the Nazi's...but they failed by not allowing the folks a sense of self as Ghangis did.

In the end...good planning like you have applied is great...good training and good experience makes the difference...and good tactics on the fly makes the win.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Verba Bellum said:


> :tango_face_grin: Fair enough. If your intel is good, then you won't run into any surprises. But if it's not, you could mosey straight on into a hornets nest. I prefer cover, concealment and evasion instead of overt operations. The one who's spotted first gets shot first. If you're good at denial ops, and you plan it right, you'll never be pinned down by infantry, you'll be the one doing the pinning. And, I would always recommend that you have at least 2 escape routes planned in advance. It's never good to be cornered with no way out. That's why I mention tunnels in the video.


I'm not going anywhere. Not going out looking for trouble, either.
I'm 71, wife is 73, our farm and others nearby are interspersed with woods. We know the area well, and if anyone comes from the front, we can slip out the back.

I'm a Vietnam veteran, served in an area that was the NVA's back yard. There weren't even any Viet Cong there, just hard core regulars. I'm not scared of American amateurs.

If you read a piece called "Murphy's Laws Of Combat" you will see one that says: "Make it too hard for the enemy to get in, and it will be too hard for you to get out." And that is true.

Remember what the great General George S. Patton Jr said about fortifications: "Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity. If mountain ranges and seas can be overcome, anything made by man can be overcome."


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Verba Bellum said:


> This next Civil War is not going to be like anything the United States has ever experienced. There are many divisions and groups within the United States, it is almost impossible to keep track of them all. Many simpletons believe it'll just be a fight between the left and the right. And some think it will simply be "whites vs. everyone else." I hate to break it to you, but thats not how 4th generation warfare works. No conflict in recent history has ever had only 2 actors involved. It is going to be a free-for-all royal-rumble between hundreds of individual guerrilla organizations; all fighting to secure their interests in the U.S.. The next Civil War will see the formal emergence of AT LEAST the following groups.
> 
> 1. Violent Socialist Party (A break-away group from establishment Democrats)
> 2. Patriot Party (Die-hard Constitutionalism, break-away from Republican establishment)
> ...


Still think the Muslim problem could be solved by day after tomorrow if the body or the parts of dead terrorists could be sure to have a well televised burial of getting covered up while wearing a bacon necklace. No Virgins for that poor guy..or gal etc. Hopefully Trump has enough cojones to do it. He knows how General Pershing handled the Muslims in the Philippines and has spoken on it. Heard rumors the Ruskies handle their dead terrorists by wrapping them in pigskins prior to burial. Now how we can help prevent the angry Black Liberals from killing all the cops and Jews is another question. They want reparations is the heart of their issue. Once they get it it will be gone and they will want more.
https://jackblackf.blogspot.com/2015/12/black-jack-pershing-vs-muslim-terrorists.html


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

You have to become one who basks in blood, death, and depravity....why do you think evil forms of torture were proposed..... it creates a sense of dread...a disheartening of the enemy.... when they know you will skin them alive...the either fight to the death or fight with an escape plan.....make everyon fight with an escape plan, by eliminating reasons to fight to the death......salvation and heaven.....how do you do that.....well, there's your answer.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I'm not going anywhere. Not going out looking for trouble, either.
> I'm 71, wife is 73, our farm and others nearby are interspersed with woods. We know the area well, and if anyone comes from the front, we can slip out the back.
> 
> I'm a Vietnam veteran, served in an area that was the NVA's back yard. There weren't even any Viet Cong there, just hard core regulars. I'm not scared of American amateurs.
> ...


Thanks for serving and for the defense strategies. George was a smart guy on those fixed barriers. Thats why I tried to tell Trump we need a fence like Hungary not a wall.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

I am too old to go anywhere now.

If needed I will fight and die here, if I leave I will die along the way to wherever.

I intend to make the price high for whoever succeeds in overrunning the place.

Last act will be releasing a dead mans switch, boom.

Field fortification can help make the price heavy for an attacker.

If SHTF happens foxholes with inter locking fire will be dug in.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I'm pretty well stocked and well prepared. Far more than I would say 99.5% of other Americans. I have an awesome 300 acre Bug out location, food, communications, weapons, shelter, ammo, power and a life time supply of water. I still doubt I'd last more than a couple months after everything tanks. It's just basic math.


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## jimcosta (Jun 11, 2017)

CSI-Tech: I'll bite. If you are prepared why do you doubt you will last just a couple of months?


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

SOCOM42 said:


> I am too old to go anywhere now. If needed I will fight and die here, if I leave I will die along the way to wherever.


I feel the same way, after all, where am I going to go? My wife and I both take meds and have an area doctor. Our home and all of our possessions are here. In the final analysis, who says that "going somewhere else" will be safer than the area I reside in now?

To that, I've lived here for just short of 20 years. I know where all the "shooting corridors" exit...


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## Verba Bellum (Dec 8, 2019)

SOCOM42 said:


> I am too old to go anywhere now.
> 
> If needed I will fight and die here, if I leave I will die along the way to wherever.
> 
> ...


Lessons learned from many countries in Afghanistan and Vietnam


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> I feel the same way, after all, where am I going to go? My wife and I both take meds and have an area doctor. Our home and all of our possessions are here. In the final analysis, who says that "going somewhere else" will be safer than the area I reside in now?
> 
> To that, I've lived here for just short of 20 years. I know where all the "shooting corridors" exit...


EXACTLY!

I have been here on my 10 acres wooded land for 41 years, home and shop are right here.

I am rural, little chance of attack until the burb people finish eating themselves.

In that time we will have the designated defenses in position.

I am not going to walk off and leave five years worth of food and other needed items behind.

If I were to leave here, the one place I would go would be with a twin engine airplane that I would steal from the local airport.

The probability of that would be about 1.0%, an early decision would need to be made before they were destroyed or bled for gas.

I know where I would go, it is 700 miles direct from here southwest bound.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

SOCOM42 said:


> EXACTLY! I am not going to walk off and leave five years worth of food and other needed items behind.


I believe in scenarios like this we have to turn to a guy named Elfego Baca. Rather than leave when threatened, he holed up in a little house that was punctured by over 4,000 rounds. The legend goes that in the morning his pursuers were surprised when they smelled him cooking breakfast.

Obviously, I cannot hold a candle to him. Oh, I have a reloading press so I could stave off an attack, but I just never learned how to cook...


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Reminds me when I had a job and did off duty gigs trying to help with security at Salsa Dances. Those Purta Riccans had some wild stories about how after a big hurricanes all the rich folks with generators the other townsfolk could hear wind up robbed and killed. Would make me not want one. Also to keep my coola outta purta Ricca.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> I believe in scenarios like this we have to turn to a guy named Elfego Baca. Rather than leave when threatened, he holed up in a little house that was punctured by over 4,000 rounds. The legend goes that in the morning his pursuers were surprised when they smelled him cooking breakfast.
> 
> Obviously, I cannot hold a candle to him. Oh, I have a reloading press so I could stave off an attack, but I just never learned how to cook...


I would be in my bunker eating something good and cranking the handle on the belt loading machine.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> I would be in my bunker eating something good and cranking the handle on the belt loading machine.


 There is something to be said for taking full advantage of stand off range. People get worried when shot at. They get real worried when that don't have a clue where it came from and the person next to then drops.
When it gets bad there will be no laws. There may be attempts in cities to uphold some kind of law but for those not in a cities the only rules will be what you decide they are.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Agreed.
A hostile or two drops, “it’s coming from that bunker” and action is taken.
“Where the hell is that guy?” That would be me, firing and moving. Only firing when it was to my advantage. 
Infantry 101 - Fire And Movement.
Not stuck in a bunker to die.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Agreed.
> A hostile or two drops, "it's coming from that bunker" and action is taken.
> "Where the hell is that guy?" That would be me, firing and moving. Only firing when it was to my advantage.
> Infantry 101 - Fire And Movement.
> Not stuck in a bunker to die.


Fire and maneuver is fine if possible, I spent enough time in the infantry to know about it.

There are situations where the only option is a frontal assault.

I have several rifles capable of 1,000 yard shots, developed one used by the army.

Myself today, I am still good for about an 800 yard shot.

I have enough firepower to encompass targets any range.

Yah, yah, I know all about fortifications and their limitations,

Our guys paid a heavy price in several wars to overtake them.

I don't expect any organized and trained rifle company assaulting me or a weapons platoon dropping 81 MM mortars on me either.

The Russians sent battalions of riflemen against German bunkers just to deplete the Germans ammo,

and to overcome the position.

Look what happened to our guys on Omaha beach on "D" day,

They did not breach the fortifications until US destroyers came in close to the beach around 800 yards,

point blank range for a 5"/38 and a 3"/50.

and destroyed the positions with the five and 3 inch direct gunfire, they put those rounds right into the firing ports.

The bunkers were built to be proof against aerial bombs,

and high angle fire from 14 inch and larger naval rifles (all battleships) from about 20,000 yards.

As I said I will stay in the bunker and die if needed, I am not walking off leaving everything to others.

I will destroy it all if need be, physical limitations will keep me here.

Two thousand gallons of diesel and 300 of gasoline will make a great pyre.

Forty years ago I thought differently, I am a realist, I know where I stand today..


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

The hardest whipping I ever got back as a kid was when my daddy sent me out hunting with two smooth rocks and I only came back with one squirrel for supper. The hardest thrashing he ever gave my Mama was when she went out and bought groceries when there wasnt a drop of whiskey in the house. He was picky about stuff like that.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I reckon I will oblige all comers as well. I have the means and capability to BO but it's not my first option. While I can get around reasonably well I am not Rambo in the woods, those days are well past me, and my wife has Rheumatoid Arthritis something fierce so her movement would be slow and deliberate at best. I do have a BO location and a plan should the opportunity present itself and I have time, but I am prepared to stand my ground, adjust and improvise, and do as best I can should the shit hit the rotating blade assembly.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Prepared One said:


> I am not Rambo in the woods, those days are well past me.


*@Prepared One*, I am that age now, myself. The problem now is how to adapt my age to my need for defensive firearms and heat for my home. I doubt I'll be looking for area militias now.

But as you know, I take advantage of my state's right to carry law. Just to be safe I still carry my CCW card that was in fashion some years ago. If stopped by the Federales I want to look and act as an honest, upstanding citizen. Experience has taught me that even our local police are not always kept up-to-date on licensed carry. For example, if you patronize a shop here with no warnings on their door, you can enter that place armed. I hedge my bets and patronize places where I am known.


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