# Talk about a POLICE STATE!!



## Beach Kowboy

I just came across this and thought it was pretty ****ed up. A college professor/student notices a map is wrong. She corrects it and someone calls the police. Sure, she was wrong to do it. But call the ****ing cops?! The cop is a TOTAL douche bag fat boy that must have something to prove. He had an attitude from the very beginning. What I don't understand is why she had to go to the station for a citation. Unless they wanted to book her to get her information in the system. Cops like these are the ones that will fire on you no questions asked when the time comes. Here is the link and video..

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...ts-own-employees-has-sparked-a-heated-debate/


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## Arizona Infidel

The wake up call is like a punch in the jaw. The question is does it wake them up?


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## sparkyprep

The police are not your friend or protector. They are the establishment's oppressors and enforcers. They no longer serve the public trust, but only serve the establishment. Cops are the worst thugs out there.


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## Smokin04

sparkyprep said:


> The police are not your friend or protector. They are the establishment's oppressors and enforcers. They no longer serve the public trust, but only serve the establishment. Cops are the worst thugs out there.


Well thanks for the statement, but no. I agree that we are not your friend. As a cop, you can't be. Most of the people cops deal with are freakin criminals...or have broken the law in some way. Do I agree that excessive force is okay? No. But cops are only human, capable of making the same mistakes as everyone else. Our job is to restore order. How ever that happens gets subjected to more scrutiny than non-cops would ever know. I challenge people to try being a cop for a few days...hell even just go on one ride along. Every single traffic stop, every single confrontation could be your last. This is a feeling that you wont know until you try it out.

Very very very few cops are douches...and they usually get found out and dealt with pretty quick. People who label cops have no empathy, therefore I will show little in return.


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## ekim

Thank God she didn't do something really wrong, she would be dead by now.


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## oddapple

You are not a miserable 400 lb sadistic loser that shouldn't even be a cop. You have a dog, an IQ and some previous "man" training. Huge difference and cops have been dealing with this same thing since before twin towers. Cops do talk to other cops and about it, just...no one is supposed to talk about it and it all comes from above in so far as what the abusers get away with. It is (to me) weak and pathetic but plenty of them still have too much dignity to be that.


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## Denton

Smokin04 said:


> Well thanks for the statement, but no. I agree that we are not your friend. As a cop, you can't be. Most of the people cops deal with are freakin criminals...or have broken the law in some way. Do I agree that excessive force is okay? No. But cops are only human, capable of making the same mistakes as everyone else. Our job is to restore order. How ever that happens gets subjected to more scrutiny than non-cops would ever know. I challenge people to try being a cop for a few days...hell even just go on one ride along. Every single traffic stop, every single confrontation could be your last. This is a feeling that you wont know until you try it out.
> 
> Very very very few cops are douches...and they usually get found out and dealt with pretty quick. People who label cops have no empathy, therefore I will show little in return.


No thanks, I don't want to ride along. My POST cert would be being used if I wanted.
You are right, cops are not our friends. Guess what; they are not our masters, either.
You would be fired if I rode with you and stopped you from operating in a manner that was outside the bounds of the constitution. You'd be surprised at what you do that shouldn't be done.

Most cops might not be bad, but they are as stupid as the general public is.


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## Beach Kowboy

Cops don't KNOW the law but they are in charge of enforcing it...


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## sparkyprep

Smokin04 said:


> Well thanks for the statement, but no. I agree that we are not your friend. As a cop, you can't be. Most of the people cops deal with are freakin criminals...or have broken the law in some way. Do I agree that excessive force is okay? No. But cops are only human, capable of making the same mistakes as everyone else. Our job is to restore order. How ever that happens gets subjected to more scrutiny than non-cops would ever know. I challenge people to try being a cop for a few days...hell even just go on one ride along. Every single traffic stop, every single confrontation could be your last. This is a feeling that you wont know until you try it out.
> 
> Very very very few cops are douches...and they usually get found out and dealt with pretty quick. People who label cops have no empathy, therefore I will show little in return.


I will not pretend to know you personally, and you are entitled to your opinion. I need no empathy. No, I do not know what it is like to deal with the scum of the earth on a daily basis.
The vast majority of the people that cops deal with are law-abiding CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES. we should not fear the police, but most do. These incidents of police brutality are not nearly as rare as they should be. Our police have become militarized, and no longer public servants. No, police are not our friends, but they should not be our oppressors either. More and more, I view the police as, and I do not use this phrase lightly, jack-booted thugs.


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## Smokin04

Beach Kowboy said:


> Cops don't KNOW the law but they are in charge of enforcing it...


I know EVERY law I must enforce. Articles 77-134 of the UCMJ. I know them down to the letter. I may be a tad sharper than the average knife though.



Denton said:


> No thanks, I don't want to ride along. My POST cert would be being used if I wanted.
> You are right, cops are not our friends. Guess what; they are not our masters, either.
> You would be fired if I rode with you and stopped you from operating in a manner that was outside the bounds of the constitution. You'd be surprised at what you do that shouldn't be done.
> 
> Most cops might not be bad, but they are as stupid as the general public is.


Which you could not do unless you're beyond the smartest lawyer in the world. Your interpretation of the constitution varies as much as the next guys. That's why there are so many amendments to it. The misconceptions of people about written law is FAR mor abundant than corruption of peace officers.

And the problem with the general public is that they THINK they know the laws better than SOME of the police they encounter. Sure, a lawyer probably knows the case law that caused certain laws to be written, or amendments to become drafted...if that's the case, then all lawyers should be cops that enforce said laws. Oops...never going to happen because lawyers are pussies and book nerds (did that offend anyone?) and incapable of remembering the law that directs them to pull the trigger when a gun is pointed at their dome.

And I'm a prior military cop, far different from the civilian realm. They don't get the same training we get. They don't get tested repeatedly on it. With that being said...there are still some VERY smart cops in the world. In reality, most cops follow their training because it's what you fall back on. It's all you got. So if the training is flawed, the product is flawed. In a nutshell, don't blame the cops...blame the law makers, and blame the lack of consistent training.



sparkyprep said:


> I will not pretend to know you personally, and you are entitled to your opinion. I need no empathy. No, I do not know what it is like to deal with the scum of the earth on a daily basis.
> The vast majority of the people that cops deal with are law-abiding CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES. we should not fear the police, but most do. These incidents of police brutality are not nearly as rare as they should be. Our police have become militarized, and no longer public servants. No, police are not our friends, but they should not be our oppressors either. More and more, I view the police as, and I do not use this phrase lightly, jack-booted thugs.


I do not assume I can change anyones opinions about the police. I don't care to either. But, I take offense to the word thug. Think about it. The police go where CALLED. The police respond when their HELP IS NEEDED, not just where ever the wind takes them. Cops don't just arrest every person in sight because they're standing there. In reality, more people get detained for questioning to sort through the bullshit lies that people throw at them. If people wouldn't lie so damn much, their jobs would be that much easier. Why don't people lie to their spouses? Don't want to piss them off right? Want to piss off a cop? Lie to them. It's no different. I get tired of sorting through peoples personal feelings/hatred towards cops because literally that feeling is the only thing that makes the job hard.

It has and always will be a thank less job. People hate it when their wrong. Cops are usually the people telling them they are...which is why the hatred is there. Just remember, if people would QUIT BREAKING THE ****ING LAW, there would be no reason for police. Anywhere. Ever.


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## sparkyprep

Hard to stop breaking the law when the political masters keep adding new ones to suit their needs.


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## Smokin04

sparkyprep said:


> Hard to stop breaking the law when the political masters keep adding new ones to suit their needs.


Valid...but still not the cops fault. The "political master" got voted in by the people. He drives the boat how he sees fit...and when the cops enforce the "political masters" policies, the cops are labeled thugs. Ever care to ask if the cops voted for the "political master?" They probably didn't either...but they don't get the luxury of deciding which laws they get to enforce. But civilians get to decide which ones they choose to follow...thus a need for police to enforce them, no matter how stupid they are.


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## oddapple

Ahaha! I think we're about at the edge of the rabbit hole on that one! 
One of the biggest losers I ever knew got out of the military and became a cop. He was under 30, alcoholic, bragged about who he put in "his" jail (in a small town), treated everybody NOT militarized, but a iraq style punk and a bully. (Really, militarized to citizens means more courtesy, observation of your rights and not meddling/caring about "people" things like drinking or hustling alley ciggerettes or something.) He had his terrible season and was gone as soon as the first layoff hit. Even in that corrupt little hole, he stank with it too much for the other bully cops. He went back to the city to be freaky on them.
Now you have this guy here, same basic deal but opposite people. Good examples of what people are getting (dirtier than they're doing) and what people want (reason). Don't throw the patient "thug" out with the rancid awful one! Ahahaha!


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## Smokin04

Watch the movie "End of Watch" and then tell me if you think they are thugs.


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## ApexPredator

I work around you guys and couldn't be less impressed your statement proves it why enforce a stupid law or maybe just an unconstitutional one. Where is the common sense factor why bother trying people by a jury of their peers since the human factor obviously doesn't matter to you. This is why Ill never do that job I could not enforce what I find morally unacceptable. What makes someone become an MP/COP answer is someone with a need for power or a need to do whats right since above statement clearly states your stance on things ill go with it wasn't morality.


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## Smokin04

Kind of took an oath to do so. Obviously you have no sense of the importance of an oath. Who exactly do you "work around?"

And how about using some punctuation? Is helps your sentence read like it should instead of sounding like an uneducated dropout.

And BTW, military also took an oath to support and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC! Civilian police also took an oath to protect and serve (a lot more to it than that). By calling civilian police crooks, criminals, thugs, etc...you're also calling military the same, because the oathes are very similar.


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## Deebo

Well, maybe officer "I am talking you will listen " was having a bad day. 
I dont wanna get into another pissing match over the police, I will just say if you man handle me, I will catch a charge of assualt, resisting, and whatever else. I respect everyone, but have a short tolerance for bullshit.


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## rickkyw1720pf

Two things need to be done to bring police forces back in line with the constitution. First the chief of police should be an elected job just like a Sheriff which is the only law enforcement recognized in the Constitution. Then he would be forced to keep his officers in line. Second police should be able to be sued just like any other person that messes up on the job, a few loosing everything they own because of an illegal act would keep them straight also.


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## sparkyprep

I don't think the woman in the original post was a domestic threat to the Constitution, so I wonder, what were the cops defending?


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## Smokin04

You should google:

Can Police be Sued?


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## Smokin04

sparkyprep said:


> I don't think the woman in the original post was a domestic threat to the Constitution, so I wonder, what were the cops defending?


He was CAMPUS POLICE! That is NOT a real cop!! They are flunkies from normal police acadamies at best. They should NEVER be compared to real Deputies, or Police.


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## XMTG

Well it seems as if there are people who hate the Police on this forum. Those people are just as bad and out of touch as the bad Police Officers that are still employed. People are in every line of work and the bad apples is what always gets all of the attention. Then people lump all Police into the same category. That is like saying all cab drivers are jerks, and I know that is not the case. The same mind set would say that all doctors are bad and I know they are not. I could go on and on.....I know all of my brothers in blue here in Texas are strong supporters of the Constitution and are on the side of the people. You have no idea of the conversations that take place every day by the Police you hate. They talk about defending the constitution all of the time. The same Officers that you hate would run to your rescue and not think twice about risking their life to save you. You never see on the news the good things that Officers do every day and never even get a thank you. They do not do the work for recognition, it would just be nice not to be lumped into one category. I have worked in LE for 22 years and am still employed with the same agency. I have been lucky enough to travel and train with local Officers as well as Federal Agents. They are all just like you and believe in the Constitution and have taken an oath to protect it.


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## inceptor

XMTG said:


> Well it seems as if there are people who hate the Police on this forum. Those people are just as bad and out of touch as the bad Police Officers that are still employed. People are in every line of work and the bad apples is what always gets all of the attention. Then people lump all Police into the same category. That is like saying all cab drivers are jerks, and I know that is not the case. The same mind set would say that all doctors are bad and I know they are not. I could go on and on.....I know all of my brothers in blue here in Texas are strong supporters of the Constitution and are on the side of the people. You have no idea of the conversations that take place every day by the Police you hate. They talk about defending the constitution all of the time. The same Officers that you hate would run to your rescue and not think twice about risking their life to save you. You never see on the news the good things that Officers do every day and never even get a thank you. They do not do the work for recognition, it would just be nice not to be lumped into one category. I have worked in LE for 22 years and am still employed with the same agency. I have been lucky enough to travel and train with local Officers as well as Federal Agents. They are all just like you and believe in the Constitution and have taken an oath to protect it.


I agree 100%, you can't lump everyone into a single category. In the larger cities you just have more of each type. That applies to all categories.

I'll bet you're not in Austin though.


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## XMTG

Nope. DFW area.


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## Deebo

XMTG, gotta say, Thank YOU, for serving as an officer.
I have never said all cops were bad. I have a cousin, that is a local police officer, I am actually trying to become a member of the "sheriff's posse" here, in my home town. I know, it strikes home real hard, to see people attacking and berating cops, I understand. No one is out there, filming and advertising great police officers, that lay it down, everyday, for the less money than I make as a supervisor (paid babysitter really).


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## inceptor

XMTG said:


> Nope. DFW area.


:lol: Didn't think so. So we are neighbors. ::clapping::


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## SAR-1L

There is always a back story, but there are a couple things that could have happened. 

1. The school could have fined or took her to court for damages.
2. The dept could have mailed her a citation.
3. They could have hand delivered a citation.
4. The school could have put her on some sort of disciplinary probation.

There is no need to take someone to the police department and get confrontational over marking of the sign.
Did they arrest the first offender, or give a citation? But yeah it is very... 

1. Publicly embarrassing. 
2. She wasn't a threat, there was not a need to be that rough with an older lady.

To me it was clear that the university sent the university cops to make an example of her.


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## rickkyw1720pf

The one thing I do know is when the shtf during Katrina, the police showed their true colors. Look up danziger bridge basically 5 police went on a shooting spree with automatic weapons, and about the whole department tried to protect them.That is just one story, there are lots of instances of them stealing. Just wonder why the media kept it quite. Danziger Bridge shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia And we all know about how they illegally took weapons away from citizens, and why wasn't any police jailed after it was determined illegal. Don't think your police department would act any different.

Personally if there is a TEOTWAWKI I prefer it to be something that the police would just disband as I think they would make things worse for those that have prepared to aid those who have not.


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## Titan6

Intimidate and Submit has taken the place of Protect and Serve...


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## The Resister

XMTG said:


> Well it seems as if there are people who hate the Police on this forum. Those people are just as bad and out of touch as the bad Police Officers that are still employed. People are in every line of work and the bad apples is what always gets all of the attention. Then people lump all Police into the same category. That is like saying all cab drivers are jerks, and I know that is not the case. The same mind set would say that all doctors are bad and I know they are not. I could go on and on.....I know all of my brothers in blue here in Texas are strong supporters of the Constitution and are on the side of the people. You have no idea of the conversations that take place every day by the Police you hate. They talk about defending the constitution all of the time. The same Officers that you hate would run to your rescue and not think twice about risking their life to save you. You never see on the news the good things that Officers do every day and never even get a thank you. They do not do the work for recognition, it would just be nice not to be lumped into one category. I have worked in LE for 22 years and am still employed with the same agency. I have been lucky enough to travel and train with local Officers as well as Federal Agents. They are all just like you and believe in the Constitution and have taken an oath to protect it.


Your claim is that people who dislike the LEO profession are "_out of touch with reality_." Are you sure it is not YOU who is not out of touch with reality?

Many honest, law abiding Americans have been targeted and harassed by the police for pretend crimes. Some have seen the LEO community break the very laws they were hired to enforce. Almost every person knows at least one person who was falsely arrested and / or imprisoned when there were no facts to justify the actions the LEOs took. Add to that, the LEO community is charged with defending a Constitution that the LEO has never read and researched on their own... independent of the corrupt system that hired them. At best, their understanding of the Constitution is skewed. So, I have to wonder if the LEO community is in any better position to talk about the Constitution versus the general public that hasn't read that document.


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## Smokin04

Katrina can't be a shining example of law enforcement in the US. Katrina was the most dire of circumstances...and people were just trying to survive. I'm not saying that anyone did the right thing...but hell man...nobody could. It was survival. 

I remember 20/20 following a NOPD around into a looting situation at Walmart after Katrina. The cop was "looting" as well. What the press didn't say is that the cop had 3 kids at home (in a 1 bedroom apt) and they were almost out of food. How could ANYONE expect a human being to do anything less than provide for their children? Survival goes beyond right and wrong. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 right? How about carrying your kid because your morals kept you from providing? 

All I'm saying is suvival and enforcing laws are two totally different things. WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS FIRST! I will always provide for my family first. That's my right as a human. 

The hatred and/or dissent for police (by a minority) on this site is seriously making me reconsider whether or not I want to post much here anymore. I mean there are some truly great folks on here...people I would (and do) consider family, but damn...cops are NOT your enemy. Their (the haters) own misconceptions are blinding them so far that they're lumping all cops into the same group. You want to make a change to the laws in this country? Then run for an office and do something about it instead of bitching like a peon. Man the **** up and be a leader. Make the hard decisions that people will judge you for. Because until you do, you are not winning any arguments with me. And guess what? Because I've taken oathes, when said haters do get elected and make their own version of paradise through legislation, I will still enforce the laws that they enact; simply because I swore to do so. Because without that dedication, without my service...you have nobody to watch your back from the people who violently disagree with the way you'd run things.

Hopefully you take a moment to let that sink in. You could be the Governor, you could be the President. Not everyone will agree with your view of the way the world should be. But it's the soldiers, and the cops that protect your crooked ass view of the world and will die to defend it, regardless of whether or not they agree. Hell, maybe when you're elected and start changing things, you'll disband the cops and the military...because they're all corrupt. Who needs them?


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## Beach Kowboy

I am VERY pro law enforcement. I have several friends and a few family members that are law enforcement. My fiance was a police officer until she was injured in a car accident. I understand police have to deal with the dreggs of society most times. Something I have noticed in the past 10-15 years though, especially in the medium and larger sized cities is law enforcement seems to be anti constitution. I know they are not but it almost feels like they are on a quota system. They can pull a regular guy wit no criminal history over for some bullshit excuse like "tint is to dark". Then once they get them pulled over they want to drill and ask them question. Ask to search and so on. I can almost understand it if they run someone and they have a criminal history. But they want to do it with everyone nowadays. It's like they are TRYING to find a reason to arrest us these days.

Most of the smaller communities that I have seen, are the exceptions. The bigger cities people are just a number. Someone said that a campus cop isn't a real cop. He is just as much an officer as anyone else that took an oath.. He is not a security guard making $8 at the mall.

As far as Katrina being the worst possible situation. What do yuo think it would be like NATIONWIDE if something major happened and they wanted to confiscate weapons? It would be Katrina by 1000. It just shows how some will act in the worst of situations. They will FOLLOW ORDERS!! Constitution or not..

I know LEO's have a hard job. I don't have the patience for it. I would end up going to jail myself having to deal with all of the ****s that they do. I appreciate what they do. I will say this. The cop that arrested the lady inthe link I posted was a douchebag. Most of us can agree on that! There are cops like him all over. Why do the decent ones let them get away with it? Because if they end up saying something, then they are the bad guy and ostracized. What will it take for the pro Constitution cops to tell the others to **** themselves? I'm not sure that they will in the end. At least not the majority of them. They will "Go with the flow." just so they aren't the ones causing trouble in the force.

Even the psych evals are keeping the decent guys now from what I am hearing. They are picking and choosing the ones that will do whatever they say in the end..


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## Deebo

I must jump back into the fire, I was trying to stay out, but, I see some things I cant abide by. Its just the way I am. I see something, I call it out.
1- campus security- That man had a badge and a gun. What would have happened, if she defended herself better? Would she get shot? Would it be justified? 
2- I haven'e seen anyone saying "ALL COPS ARE BAD", that would be like saying all whites are bad. Just isn't the reality. Hell, I even wanna be a cop.
3- Smokin- you have worked with some great people, obviuosly. And, that is a great thing, but ask yourself, is everyone of them the same when they arent around you? I mean, obviously by your pictures, you are alot like most prior military, and have a "no nonsense" aproach, but would everyone of them treat a known drug dealer any different if there were no one around?
4- The big one- you state its ok for a cop to loot, becouse he had kids at home? Wow, with that kind of reasoning, it should just be "open house", I didn't see the peice mentioned, but your advocating that as soon as anything "bad happens" its ok becouse "of the kids".
5- If you let anyones opinion stop you from posting here, then you have let them win. I dont agree with everything said here, I state my opinion, A LOT, and I have some arguements, and heated debates, but I also learn about dehydrating apples, and there's always a great bacon joke just waiting to be thrown out.
So, I understand, its personall, it hits your nerve. Nopbody is saying "Smokin" is a bad cop. We are just saying, some cops are a little to heavy handed, and enjoy the power. 
If you stick around, kool. I kinda like you.


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## PalmettoTree

The issue is she did not comply with the police request. I cannot say anything about the validity of the complaint that is what hearings and trials are for. Maybe the school has had problems with people writing and painting on walls. Maybe the wall map was more art than map. The police gave her a reasonable amount of time to have her say and walk to the campus police office. My guess, that is their procedure. Again she had time to comply by putting her hands behind her without objection. Likely the backpack would have been removed. Bottom line from start to finish she resisted the officer.

She should have complied with the officer, went and got her citation and then went to administration. Once a person begins physically resisting the officer will move the force up a notch. That is exactly what happened here.


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## Casie

Thank you Smokin for reminding us there are good guys out there too. Please please don't feel like you need to move on. If anything we need you to be the example of what law enforcement looks like when done by a good man. It's always the rotten officers that get all the attention. Also, I do think it has a LOT to do with what state and city you are in.

I'm in Louisiana and I've had two very small experiences with Louisiana Police. The first was when my car got hit by a van and I called for an incident report. When I opened the glovebox to get my insurance/registration the officer spied a tied baggie. In a split second he became super aggressive and began screaming at me, "What's in that baggie!?!?! What's that?!" I told him I thought it was a bag of light bulbs. I reached to get it so I could hand it to him, since I was already getting him the paperwork that lay under it. 

He looked like he was having a heart attack and ripped the bag out of my hands. In his hurry to get it open the bag ripped and 200 LED light bulbs flew into the air. That jerk stuffed the ripped bag with 20 bulbs left in it back into the glove box and never even thought about picking up the ones all scattered around his feet. Heck, he walked right over them. I was in college at the time and I seriously look like a school librarian. I was no threat to him at all, at any time. I just started crying. My car had a van-shaped dent and I had just lost $75 in LEDs and the cop looked like he hated my guts. That was a very eye opening experience!

The next time I talked to a Louisiana cop was when my Father-in-law's bike shop was broken into. I actually watched 2 police officers pick up opened merchandise off the floor and put it in the back of their patrol car. (tubes, grips, hardware, reflectors) Granted they didn't take anything that was still in packages, so I guess they thought that was alright.

I have also had to call the fire department once. After the break in, a welder who was putting security bars on the windows accidentally started a fire in the wall. The fire fighters were AMAZING. They were methodical and did as little damage as possible to the building to find the fire. They even covered our equipment and inventory with huge tarps before they hit the place with water. And after it was out, they stayed for hours to watch for flare ups, which did happen just when we were positive it was all out.

Anyway, there are good guys and bad guys in ALL jobs. Bad cops just get all the attention because police are so important. No one cares too much if you are a bad zamboni driver. But a bad surgeon or a bad cop... that is a different story. Personally, I would like to see law enforcement make way more money. It is true you get what you pay for. And low salary often means lower standards. Stop using our tax dollars to make politicians and their friends millionaires, and pay the people that work. After all who here doesn't totally respect what Sheriff Joe represents? Thanks again, Smokin.


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## The Resister

Smokin04 said:


> Katrina can't be a shining example of law enforcement in the US. Katrina was the most dire of circumstances...and people were just trying to survive. I'm not saying that anyone did the right thing...but hell man...nobody could. It was survival.
> 
> I remember 20/20 following a NOPD around into a looting situation at Walmart after Katrina. The cop was "looting" as well. What the press didn't say is that the cop had 3 kids at home (in a 1 bedroom apt) and they were almost out of food. How could ANYONE expect a human being to do anything less than provide for their children? Survival goes beyond right and wrong. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 right? How about carrying your kid because your morals kept you from providing?
> 
> All I'm saying is suvival and enforcing laws are two totally different things. WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS FIRST! I will always provide for my family first. That's my right as a human.
> 
> The hatred and/or dissent for police (by a minority) on this site is seriously making me reconsider whether or not I want to post much here anymore. I mean there are some truly great folks on here...people I would (and do) consider family, but damn...cops are NOT your enemy. Their (the haters) own misconceptions are blinding them so far that they're lumping all cops into the same group. You want to make a change to the laws in this country? Then run for an office and do something about it instead of bitching like a peon. Man the **** up and be a leader. Make the hard decisions that people will judge you for. Because until you do, you are not winning any arguments with me. And guess what? Because I've taken oathes, when said haters do get elected and make their own version of paradise through legislation, I will still enforce the laws that they enact; simply because I swore to do so. Because without that dedication, without my service...you have nobody to watch your back from the people who violently disagree with the way you'd run things.
> 
> Hopefully you take a moment to let that sink in. You could be the Governor, you could be the President. Not everyone will agree with your view of the way the world should be. But it's the soldiers, and the cops that protect your crooked ass view of the world and will die to defend it, regardless of whether or not they agree. Hell, maybe when you're elected and start changing things, you'll disband the cops and the military...because they're all corrupt. Who needs them?


I hope that what I'm about to say to you will not fall on blind eyes. You write as though people simply hate cops; as to imply they are mere haters and out of touch with reality. You make it sound as if some don't do anything about the situation. Okay, I'll be the first to take your challenge.

In the mid 1990s I was involved in exposing LEOs in my own neighborhood, breaking the laws they expected everyone to obey. Long story short, the LEOs resisted attempts by me to follow through via the _legal_ process. Fact is, they began misapplying the laws until one group set out to kill me. That story made headline news and the chief editorial writer of the liberal rag, the Atlanta Journal Constitution wrote that I had "_never been a threat, imminent or otherwise_." So, I have actual experience AND I've tried to do something about it.

If you choose to bury your head in the sand and pretend that the LEO community is beyond reproach, that is your business; however, some people have witnessed things that you could not begin to fathom. Just a few months ago the tv show 20 /20 caught LEOs breaking speeding laws. Watch this and tell me about what beaming paragons of human virtue the cops are:

ABC News Video Catches Cops Breaking the Law | Cop Block






Sometimes the attitudes have gotten really out of hand. Events like the attack on the Weaver family at a place called Ruby Ridge (Idaho) and the assault on Branch Davidians in Waco Texas sounded an alarm that has resulted in thousands upon thousands of LEOs misusing their powers and violating the Constitution on a regular basis. I'm sure you know that and I'm wondering if what you really want is to suppress people from venting their anger towards the POLICE STATE. The LEO community used to have a motto of serve and protect. If you look at the current attitude of those who are confronted, you begin to see it's really about patrol and control NOT serve and protect.


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## oddapple

I can not say I am pro law enforcement at all per se, but let a man stand on his own merits. Everything has a way that we're supposed to be doing it and a way some of us are doing it. It seems kinda unfair to have this one guy supposed to have an answer for it all when even the simple answer can end up subject to circumstance. I figure most of us know these answers. I keep hearing "I try to do best I can" which is personal these days, a choice too many others don't value. It just got squirrely there for a minute. I think maybe somehow what happened to you and those kind of guys git mixed up with this and other kind of guys and that put each party in a untenable place that kinda sucked. If guys like him quit, all that will be left is the freaks.


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## Notsoyoung

A few thoughts and observations on the subject: "Police States" are not caused by bad LEO's, they are caused by bad laws passed by bad politicians. 2) LEO's are humans. That means that there are going to be good ones and bad ones. IMO overwhelmingly they are good. The problem is that because of their position and the power that comes with it, when they are bad they can be very bad, and the bad ones draw allot more attention then the good ones. IMO this is usually the result of shortcomings in a police department that turns a blind eye to officer misfeasance, low recruitment standards, or poor training. 3) When many people are caught doing something against the law, they blame the LEO's and do not accept responsibility for their own actions. I have on numerous occasions heard people rant and rave about the "damn cops" because they have gotten tickets for traffic infractions. In every case when I asked if they were guilty the answer has been "yes". I have been pulled over more then once for one thing or another. In every case there was a good reason for them pulling me over, and in every case I was treated with respect and courtesy. Maybe that's because in every case I treated the officer with respect and courtesy. 4) Perhaps people should bear in mind that LEO's are aware that every time they approach someone there is a risk that the individual will attack them. More then a few COPS have been killed when they pull someone over for speeding and are shot when they approach the car. Not an excuse for bad behavior but keeping that in mind it might be a good idea to try to make things less tense on your part. No sudden moves, keep your hands where they can be seen, and be respectful until given a reason not to. The last is something you should do with EVERYONE. Also, if you were in the wrong, be adult enough to accept responsibility for YOUR actions. If you are pissed of about getting a speeding ticket, don't be pissed off at the COP, be pissed off at YOURSELF. It's YOUR fault, be adult enough to admit it. 

Frankly when I hear someone constantly complain about the police I tend to think that the problem isn't with the police but with the person complaining. IMO they are usually obnoxious jerks who feel like they are being "picked upon" when they act like a loud mouthed ass bag and the person they are dumping on gets angry at them. I also believe that when LEO's are bad, abuse their position, or break the law, it should appear as though the wrath of God comes down on them like a giant sledge hammer. Both them and their supervisor/department. I am usually strongly against suing people, but in obvious cases of police abuse of others or the law not only should they be prosecuted but they personally, their supervisors, and their department should have the crap sued out of them. Their should be zero tolerance of bad cops. 

Finally, I can think of one city off the top of my head where there aren't any LEO's. Mogadishu Somalia.


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## The Resister

Notsoyoung said:


> Frankly when I hear someone constantly complain about the police I tend to think that the problem isn't with the police but with the person complaining. IMO they are usually obnoxious jerks who feel like they are being "picked upon" when they act like a loud mouthed ass bag and the person they are dumping on gets angry at them. ... I am usually strongly against suing people, but in obvious cases of police abuse of others or the law not only should they be prosecuted but they personally, their supervisors, and their department should have the crap sued out of them. Their should be zero tolerance of bad cops.


There lies the problem. The pro law enforcement crowd always thinks that the only reason a person gets picked on is that they were doing something illegal to begin with. That is my *first* issue with pro law enforcement. In America, unlike many totalitarian regimes a person has a presumption of innocence. Instead, the pro law enforcement crowd presumes that any person who complains about a LEO is a criminal.

Well, the fact is, I did NOT break any laws. The cops were breaking the law. I ignorantly thought that by bringing this to the attention of the county commissioners, the sheriff, and then the media they would investigate and act accordingly. Instead, what I got was targeted and then the system misused against me. To date, none of those "_decent_" law enforcement officials has had the moral turpitude to step forward and apologize for the false charges, the hear say introduced in court, the outright *LIES* entered into the court record, and the plans that were drawn up to kill me and claim I resisted arrest.

In the course of fighting that case, it became apparent my case was no anomaly; it wasn't specific to any geographical area; it was not specific to any LEO branch... there are horror stories about feds, state, county and even city LEOs. We should be able to complain about the situation without hearing people want to exit a board or cease interacting with you. We should not have to fear reprisals... and I won't. Furthermore, when people advocate censorship of the subject (i.e. implying that their support of any board is contingent upon not allowing the people to vent about an actual problem) is further evidence that the LEO community and its supporters are not committed to any United States Constitution (as our forefathers envisioned it) and they don't give two hoots in Hell about the public Liberty.


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## oddapple

Everyone expects the abuses to get worse. Wasn't saying they weren't or that it was acceptable at all.


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## oldmurph58

Smokin04 said:


> Katrina can't be a shining example of law enforcement in the US. Katrina was the most dire of circumstances...and people were just trying to survive. I'm not saying that anyone did the right thing...but hell man...nobody could. It was survival.
> 
> I remember 20/20 following a NOPD around into a looting situation at Walmart after Katrina. The cop was "looting" as well. What the press didn't say is that the cop had 3 kids at home (in a 1 bedroom apt) and they were almost out of food. How could ANYONE expect a human being to do anything less than provide for their children? Survival goes beyond right and wrong. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 right? How about carrying your kid because your morals kept you from providing?
> 
> All I'm saying is suvival and enforcing laws are two totally different things. WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS FIRST! I will always provide for my family first. That's my right as a human.
> 
> The hatred and/or dissent for police (by a minority) on this site is seriously making me reconsider whether or not I want to post much here anymore. I mean there are some truly great folks on here...people I would (and do) consider family, but damn...cops are NOT your enemy. Their (the haters) own misconceptions are blinding them so far that they're lumping all cops into the same group. You want to make a change to the laws in this country? Then run for an office and do something about it instead of bitching like a peon. Man the **** up and be a leader. Make the hard decisions that people will judge you for. Because until you do, you are not winning any arguments with me. And guess what? Because I've taken oathes, when said haters do get elected and make their own version of paradise through legislation, I will still enforce the laws that they enact; simply because I swore to do so. Because without that dedication, without my service...you have nobody to watch your back from the people who violently disagree with the way you'd run things.
> 
> Hopefully you take a moment to let that sink in. You could be the Governor, you could be the President. Not everyone will agree with your view of the way the world should be. But it's the soldiers, and the cops that protect your crooked ass view of the world and will die to defend it, regardless of whether or not they agree. Hell, maybe when you're elected and start changing things, you'll disband the cops and the military...because they're all corrupt. Who needs them?


 If the cops got a hungry family, I'm totaly for him stealin food to feed them. If his t.v. got water damage, or he murdered some guy, then burned the body, to cover up its a waaay different matter. nopd's new chief, after the storm, made a "you lie you die rule" meaning cops covering up crimes committed by themselves, or other leo's, will be fired. To me that should be implied the day you pin an a badge, and taught in the academy. In my case its not hatred at all, in another post you said if ordered to do something, confiscate a lagally owned gun or shoot americans, you would do it, you had sworn an oath. didnt the gestapo say "we were just doing our jobs"?


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## oldmurph58

Smokin04 said:


> He was CAMPUS POLICE! That is NOT a real cop!! They are flunkies from normal police acadamies at best. They should NEVER be compared to real Deputies, or Police.


 folks say that about M.P.s too


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## rickkyw1720pf

There is no reason possible for a policeman to steal during Katrina. This isn't something that just happened, they had about 2 weeks of warning that the storm was on the way. I remember them warning people and even telling them that the levees could not withstand the hurricane. If you were a prepper in New Orleans like so many that prepared on higher ground then the police became your worst enemy. They had food, water, guns and organization. They were doing just fine until the police and national guard decided to throw out the constitution and take it upon themselves to steal guns from those that need them for security.

If TEOTWAWKI your best hope is to organize in groups that or too large for the police to contend with. From what I have seen, it seems they can justify anything they do by saying they are the law.


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## rickkyw1720pf

The police saying they were just stealing to feed their family is BS. Unless they like to eat leather.

Show me one of the police here that has food in their cart. Show me a video of the police taking food, I can find videos of the police stealing gas and tires off of peoples cars also.


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## Smokin04

Enough. You people will never get it. And I can't explain it. 

I'll read and maybe contribute to prepper type threads...but political, military, LEO, intelligence, and religious threads are a waste of my time.


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## Denton

> Which you could not do unless you're beyond the smartest lawyer in the world. Your interpretation of the constitution varies as much as the next guys. That's why there are so many amendments to it. The misconceptions of people about written law is FAR mor abundant than corruption of peace officers.
> 
> And the problem with the general public is that they THINK they know the laws better than SOME of the police they encounter. Sure, a lawyer probably knows the case law that caused certain laws to be written, or amendments to become drafted...if that's the case, then all lawyers should be cops that enforce said laws. Oops...never going to happen because lawyers are pussies and book nerds (did that offend anyone?) and incapable of remembering the law that directs them to pull the trigger when a gun is pointed at their dome.
> 
> And I'm a prior military cop, far different from the civilian realm. They don't get the same training we get. They don't get tested repeatedly on it. With that being said...there are still some VERY smart cops in the world. In reality, most cops follow their training because it's what you fall back on. It's all you got. So if the training is flawed, the product is flawed. In a nutshell, don't blame the cops...blame the law makers, and blame the lack of consistent training.


You are right, military cops are trained differently - good thing my training didn't stop in the army. Not only did my training not stop, but I took it on myself to understand the very thing I took multiple oaths to uphold and protect, and, yes; I understand it a whole lot more than any currently serving cop I know. On the other hand, I am not the only one who used to be in the CJ scene who is no longer, and wouldn't go back because of the unconstitutional demands on the cop, whether he be good or he be bad.

The notion that the constitution is to be _interpreted_ is a cop-out, designed to allow one to blindly follow orders while pointing the finger at lawyers, politicians and policy-makers. As well, at the end of the day, no unconstitutional law should be enforced, and no unconstitutional law offers protection when any authority enforces it. That means the police officers, too.

I am now a mere avionics tech who works inanimate objects, the oddball who is rereading the Federalist Papers on breaks and at lunch. I'll probably reread the anti-Federalist papers, afterward, or maybe I'll read more of Sir William Blackstone, as did the the founders of our nation. I prefer not to "interpret" what the founders intended; I leave such activity to the those who wish to restrain or abolish the rights endowed us by our Creator.


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## Slippy

Smokin04 said:


> Enough. You people will never get it. And I can't explain it.
> 
> I'll read and maybe contribute to prepper type threads...but political, military, LEO, intelligence, and religious threads are a waste of my time.


Smokin04

I personally hope you continue to contribute as you have been knowledgeable, humorous and exhibited characteristics that lead me to believe that you are an overall standup good guy.

You know as well as I do that for every good teacher there is a bad one, for every good businessman there is a bad one, for every good preacher there is a bad one...You get my point. For every good cop there is probably a bad one if you believe in Statistics. It's human nature.

I would like to see you start a thread on dog training since I have this crazy puppy that we have renamed The Chupacabra! :evil: My very best to you.


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## Denton

By the way, I don't say this to sound smart - I am not. What takes me months to understand, others probably pick it up in days to weeks. What I am saying is we are ignorant. We, the People, are ignorant, and so are the cops. The reasons are similar. We rely on others to tell us what is right and what is not. That begs the question; are we getting what we deserve?

I am inclined to suggest not. Why? If we are truly a nation of law, then law should prevail. Law, that is to say, that which is the foundation of our government and our system of justice, should trump whatever statute, policy or political opinion is placed upon the shoulders of the citizen. If only one citizen stands and rightly states that one of these things runs contrary to the law of nature and nature's God and the rights endowed him by that Creator, that citizen should have the weight of the law on his side, regardless of any case law or precedent.


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## Smokin04

Slippy said:


> Smokin04
> 
> I personally hope you continue to contribute as you have been knowledgeable, humorous and exhibited characteristics that lead me to believe that you are an overall standup good guy.
> 
> You know as well as I do that for every good teacher there is a bad one, for every good businessman there is a bad one, for every good preacher there is a bad one...You get my point. For every good cop there is probably a bad one if you believe in Statistics. It's human nature.
> 
> I would like to see you start a thread on dog training since I have this crazy puppy that we have renamed The Chupacabra! :evil: My very best to you.


PM Sent. I'll help ya anytime.


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## ekim

Slippy said:


> Smokin04
> 
> I personally hope you continue to contribute as you have been knowledgeable, humorous and exhibited characteristics that lead me to believe that you are an overall standup good guy.
> 
> You know as well as I do that for every good teacher there is a bad one, for every good businessman there is a bad one, for every good preacher there is a bad one...You get my point. For every good cop there is probably a bad one if you believe in Statistics. It's human nature.
> I would like to see you start a thread on dog training since I have this crazy puppy that we have renamed The Chupacabra! :evil: My very best to you.


Fear not as if he does refrain from more posting in politician forums that means we have either educated one liberal leaning person, eliminated an enemy or at least gotten one to refrain from posting more liberal BS thinking. Not a major victory but a small step in the right direction. I am surprised how long it took for some to see the hand writing on the wall though. There are others,IMO, on this forum that shouldn't really be here and not just for being liberal leaning but for the health of the forum in general, but they can and are tolerated for the time being. IMO, they are a threat to what this forum should stand for and mean. But I'm sure many say the same about me, so be it.


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## oldmurph58

rickkyw1720pf said:


> The police saying they were just stealing to feed their family is BS. Unless they like to eat leather.
> 
> Show me one of the police here that has food in their cart. Show me a video of the police taking food, I can find videos of the police stealing gas and tires off of peoples cars also.


 At last! You are my hero. I,ve mentioned katrina before and all the leo,s and other's ALWAY's say "they were feedin their families"," they were just doing their jobs" etc. This is the first video i've seen with the proof! Whats stealing shoes, and lootin got to do with their jobs? Vindication. wooo wooo. thanx again. ok where is your proof smokin 04?
for the poor cop with the 3 kids, probably bull spit. Usually is....little twirp


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## Arizona Infidel

Smokin04 said:


> Enough. You people will never get it. And I can't explain it.
> 
> I'll read and maybe contribute to prepper type threads...but political, military, LEO, intelligence, and religious threads are a waste of my time.


This is where you are wrong. We DO "get it". You can't explain it because you DONT " get it".


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## oldmurph58

Arizona Infidel said:


> This is where you are wrong. We DO "get it". You can't explain it because you DONT " get it".


 Bro, my brother, the cop, calls these guys "cop groupies" some are wanna be's, some are gays, turned on by blue, some are mall cops. I think you are right Infidel he just dont get it.


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## midtnfamilyguy

Smokin, I don't know or don't remember your current status (civilian or military) or length in service, but take it from an active old timer, if you take every comment personal you had better start planning your funeral. There are some on here who will never agree with you regardless, some believe because of your profession you are naturally a liberal. There are some good people on hear who calls it as they see it. There are some here I can't put my finger on; some seems like they are sovereign citizens groups or just want no LE at all, just anarchy.( my opinion only and you know the saying about opinions) NOPD during Katrina was a huge disgrace to law enforcement. But then again NOPD has been a huge disgrace for a long time. 

Now if you will, take some advice from a nearly 30 year vet (civilian). Take off your blue tinted glasses and look at the world. I believe what you say about yourself as true until proven otherwise. Unless these comments apply to you personally, don't take them personally. If they do LEAVE now. People's mistrust about police do have merit. The mistrust is an affront to the police profession not all individuals officers. It is hard for me to believe that a person has never had some type of contact with what they would consider a good officer. But the main stream liberal media shows only the bad so that is what people get a view of and make their opinion out of. ( before I get a comment, yes there are contacts made by bad officers too).

With all this being said, if you don't fit in with these comments hold your head high, stand up for what is right, and don't take it personal. If you fit in crawl under a rock and pull it in on top of you and keep digging down. There are good people on here, even if I don't agree on all of their views, but they have some good information and knowledge that is useful.


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## oldmurph58

Smokin04 said:


> Kind of took an oath to do so. Obviously you have no sense of the importance of an oath. Who exactly do you "work around?"
> 
> And how about using some punctuation? Is helps your sentence read like it should instead of sounding like an uneducated dropout.
> 
> And BTW, military also took an oath to support and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC! Civilian police also took an oath to protect and serve (a lot more to it than that). By calling civilian police crooks, criminals, thugs, etc...you're also calling military the same, because the oathes are very similar.


Seek proffesional help


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## ApexPredator

Smokin04 said:


> Kind of took an oath to do so. Obviously you have no sense of the importance of an oath. Who exactly do you "work around?"
> 
> And how about using some punctuation? Is helps your sentence read like it should instead of sounding like an uneducated dropout.
> 
> And BTW, military also took an oath to support and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC! Civilian police also took an oath to protect and serve (a lot more to it than that). By calling civilian police crooks, criminals, thugs, etc...you're also calling military the same, because the oathes are very similar.


Lol your comments remind me of non combat arms staff officers and enlisted NCOs (there are exceptions) I think we all know how "Intelligent" they are but boy they make some fancy power point presentations. Anyways check out Dunning?Kruger effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


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## rickkyw1720pf

midtnfamilyguy said:


> Smokin, I don't know or don't remember your current status (civilian or military) or length in service, but take it from an active old timer, if you take every comment personal you had better start planning your funeral. There are some on here who will never agree with you regardless, some believe because of your profession you are naturally a liberal. There are some good people on hear who calls it as they see it. There are some here I can't put my finger on; some seems like they are sovereign citizens groups or just want no LE at all, just anarchy.( my opinion only and you know the saying about opinions) NOPD during Katrina was a huge disgrace to law enforcement. But then again NOPD has been a huge disgrace for a long time.
> 
> Now if you will, take some advice from a nearly 30 year vet (civilian). Take off your blue tinted glasses and look at the world. I believe what you say about yourself as true until proven otherwise. Unless these comments apply to you personally, don't take them personally. If they do LEAVE now. People's mistrust about police do have merit. The mistrust is an affront to the police profession not all individuals officers. It is hard for me to believe that a person has never had some type of contact with what they would consider a good officer. But the main stream liberal media shows only the bad so that is what people get a view of and make their opinion out of. ( before I get a comment, yes there are contacts made by bad officers too).
> 
> With all this being said, if you don't fit in with these comments hold your head high, stand up for what is right, and don't take it personal. If you fit in crawl under a rock and pull it in on top of you and keep digging down. There are good people on here, even if I don't agree on all of their views, but they have some good information and knowledge that is useful.


The problem is that it isn't the single bad cop anymore. When several police show up and beat a man to death that is going to far. When a swat team of 15 breaks into a home and shoots a 7 year old girl in the head while she is asleep on the couch and they change their story a dozen times. When 5 cops from NOPD steals a van shoots unarmed people for apparently no reason ( at least they got convicted of murder) and almost the entire department covers for them.
When 400 of New York's finest are indicted for fixing tickets. When you have police on their own camera caught talking about how they are going to frame a woman who's car they ran into. When Police Shoot, Kill 80-Year-Old Man In His Own Bed because someone thought he may have illegal drugs. When the police raid a high school and point guns at all the children and threatening them and forcing them on the floor saying the are looking for drugs (none found and big law suit). When the police know two men broke into a house with two young girls and their mom and the whole squad waited out side until they were finished raping the girls and then burned them alive. I start to think if the treatment is worse than the disease. I could go on and on and I can prove everything I have written here.

Edit: I know I will hear "wait until you need the police" Well that is not a good statement because they have the system rigged where you have to use the police. We didn't even have police until a little before the civil war and only in big cities. Even then they were broken up because of corruption and then restarted latter on. If you ever catch someone stealing something from you just try to get them convicted, even if the police catch them with the goods , you will be going back and forth to court until you either loose your job or say it just isn't worth it. And if you decide to take things in your own hands that is where the police come in to arrest you for punching someone in the jaw.

Just thank god for youtube, and smart phones that we now get a much better picture of what is going on.


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## oldmurph58

good post rickky


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## oldmurph58

Slippy said:


> Smokin04
> 
> I personally hope you continue to contribute as you have been knowledgeable, humorous and exhibited characteristics that lead me to believe that you are an overall standup good guy.
> 
> You know as well as I do that for every good teacher there is a bad one, for every good businessman there is a bad one, for every good preacher there is a bad one...You get my point. For every good cop there is probably a bad one if you believe in Statistics. It's human nature.
> 
> I would like to see you start a thread on dog training since I have this crazy puppy that we have renamed The Chupacabra! :evil: My very best to you.


 Why do that to poor chupa? he'll wet the bed and have nightnares after.


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## PalmettoTree

Slippy said:


> Smokin04
> 
> I personally hope you continue to contribute as you have been knowledgeable, humorous and exhibited characteristics that lead me to believe that you are an overall standup good guy.
> 
> You know as well as I do that for every good teacher there is a bad one, for every good businessman there is a bad one, for every good preacher there is a bad one...You get my point. For every good cop there is probably a bad one if you believe in Statistics. It's human nature.
> 
> I would like to see you start a thread on dog training since I have this crazy puppy that we have renamed The Chupacabra! :evil: My very best to you.


No, there are bad people in every profession but it is hardly 50:50.


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## rickkyw1720pf

PalmettoTree said:


> No, there are bad people in every profession but it is hardly 50:50.


I agree the police department may think 50:50 good to bad is ok but I can't think of any other legal profession that would except that.


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## ekim

rickkyw1720pf said:


> I agree the police department may think 50:50 good to bad is ok but I can't think of any other legal profession that would except that.


It would be nice if congress got up to 50:50, but 4 or 5 out of 535 isn't a very good percentage, IMO if it's that high!.


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## Slippy

PalmettoTree said:


> No, there are bad people in every profession but it is hardly 50:50.


You got me on that Palm. Since I was just making a generalization, kind of like there some good people everywhere then there are some real douchebags too.


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## Inor

I started a reply to this post last evening, but deleted it because upon reading it before posting, it was far too adversarial. Smokin, I have to say that I really enjoy your posts and you usually bring a perspective that I had not considered. I do hope you do not quit posting here. But I also have to say that your loyalty to ALL law enforcement is overdone.

I do not "hate cops" or anything close. But I do believe law enforcement is subject to the same laws of probability as everyone else. In other words, 90% of the cops on the street are good decent folks, and 10% are complete power-mad dickheads. BUT, I do hold cops to a higher standard than I hold the average Joe. When a cop takes his oath, he is basically saying "I am trustworthy and you can trust me with the wellbeing of your family". If he betrays that trust, it has a much greater impact than if my dry cleaner stiffs me.

In regard to your statement about cops looting to feed their families after Katrina, I cannot disagree with you more. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for a COP to have to resort to looting to take care of his family. These are a group of guys that have supposedly made it their life's work to "look out for other people", and they cannot even feed their own families for a 3-4 week period of time after a hurricane in New Orleans? Are hurricanes that unusual in New Orleans? Maybe I am just a jerk, but any man that cannot even provide for his own family for 3-4 weeks after a disaster that is VERY likely to occur in any given year, is far too big a ****-up to be trusted with the "public safety".

Sorry if that offends...


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## Denton

One more thing to add, from an ignorant idiot who could never quite understand because I have obviously never been there.

Things are not as they were in 1790, and they aren't as they were in 1890. Furthermore, from my understanding, experience and research, things are not as they were in 1980, 1990 or 2001. We can either kiss all law enforcement agent's asses or realize that there is a serious problem within the system. The whole, "You mere peasants simply don't understand the stress we heroes feel" crap only goes so far, and it doesn't go far at all when one falls back on blaming the policy-makers and politicians. That crap doesn't even raise to the decent level of a _cop_-out - excuse the pun.


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## Denton

And, as far as what any jack-booted thugs or hippie-dippie hempers think of my opinion, understand that my thoughts are filtering through whickey right now. Just found out that a good man, a friend and one of the last real "peace officers" died of stage four lung cancer. Not sure about the different stages of lung cancer, but i assume stage 4 is the end of the line, huh? Captain was never in his his future as he didnt toe the line; he tried to do things right by the people and not by the Man.
Try and learn what is the right and real way of doing things, and stop acting off of the superficial bull crap you are told by your master. While you are at it, join me in kncking back a couple shot in memory of a good peace officer. Officer Bobby Tew, Troy, Alabama. 
Keep in contact with your friends - don't let their sons inform you a year too late to say good bye.
Damn it. And damn those who blindly follow the "rules."


----------



## The Resister

Just as a parting shot:

It is only on a couple of discussion boards that I have spoken out about LEO tyranny. At no time did I ever advocate or condone illegal acts. The fact remains that MOST cops have this attitude that if you don't have a police record, they simply haven't caught you yet. Additionally, many of us have seen the cop bumper sticker that says they get paid to protect your ass not kiss it (yeah, if you haven't seen it, it is a real bumper sticker.)

Let me say this up front and without any hesitation or reservation: I believe in the Constitution. Personally, I would stand with ANYONE in the promotion of a legal Right - standing shoulder to shoulder with you and putting my life on the line in order to protect your Rights (even if I vehemently disagree with you.) One final thing:

Right now I'm working my ass off. I spend an hour or so per day on the computer and that's about the extent of my activism this year. As soon as I began posting on this subject, a couple of friends called me... they aren't even aware that I post on my own mickey mouse board and here. BOTH friends (and they don't know each other) have been interviewed by the FBI. So, if any of you think it's safe to criticize the almighty LEO profession, think again. They can and will do whatever takes to shut you up. 

We see a man who criticizes the government, we draw a stereotype about him. We say he's mad at the government; has some axe to grind; hates the cops, etc., etc. ad infinitum. Yet, even when the LEO community has MILLIONS of recorded examples to choose from, there will be those who think the cops hung the moon. You cannot work to change the LEO community through any legal process and only an idiot would publicly stand up and try to organize a group to use force. Well, the LEOs can force me off this thread; tie up a lot of my time; maybe even dream up some way to start threatening me or fabricating B.S. to bolster the stereotype. That won't make it true. It may make the cops are Gods crowd happy, but it doesn't change the bottom line. I'd fight to the death to protect your Rights - even if I disagree with you. What would you do to insure MY Rights?


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## oldmurph58

Smokin 04: You do have a flair for the dramatic though "every single confrontation could be your last", Dude you claim to be a mp, whats gonna happen some majors wife hit you with a turkey at the commisary?


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## oldmurph58

Thankfully, I'm an old guy who knows better, Your stuff could make a young fool hate leo's and they got real problems like who's workin at the donut shop?


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## The Resister

oldmurph58 said:


> You do have a flair for the dramatic though "every single confrontation could be your last", Dude you claim to be a mp, whats gonna happen some majors wife hit you with a turkey at the commisary?


You had to be addressing Smoking04 as I ain't never been no MP :grin:


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## oldmurph58

Oh yes dude I was talkin at smokin 04 i like your posts. Sorry, I fixed that post and added a address


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## Notsoyoung

The Resister said:


> There lies the problem. The pro law enforcement crowd always thinks that the only reason a person gets picked on is that they were doing something illegal to begin with. That is my *first* issue with pro law enforcement. In America, unlike many totalitarian regimes a person has a presumption of innocence. Instead, the pro law enforcement crowd presumes that any person who complains about a LEO is a criminal.
> 
> Well, the fact is, I did NOT break any laws. The cops were breaking the law. I ignorantly thought that by bringing this to the attention of the county commissioners, the sheriff, and then the media they would investigate and act accordingly. Instead, what I got was targeted and then the system misused against me. To date, none of those "_decent_" law enforcement officials has had the moral turpitude to step forward and apologize for the false charges, the hear say introduced in court, the outright *LIES* entered into the court record, and the plans that were drawn up to kill me and claim I resisted arrest.
> 
> In the course of fighting that case, it became apparent my case was no anomaly; it wasn't specific to any geographical area; it was not specific to any LEO branch... there are horror stories about feds, state, county and even city LEOs. We should be able to complain about the situation without hearing people want to exit a board or cease interacting with you. We should not have to fear reprisals... and I won't. Furthermore, when people advocate censorship of the subject (i.e. implying that their support of any board is contingent upon not allowing the people to vent about an actual problem) is further evidence that the LEO community and its supporters are not committed to any United States Constitution (as our forefathers envisioned it) and they don't give two hoots in Hell about the public Liberty.


Did you actually read the whole post? I specifically said that there are bad cops and bad departments and they need to be harshly punished. I was very clear on that and hardly "always thinks that the only reason a person gets picked on is that they were doing something illegal to begin with.". I believe that in many if not most cases that is what is happening but I am not naive enough to believe that all Cops are good, although it is clear that there are some who are naive enough to believe that if they have had a bad experience with one Cop or Department then ALL Gops/Departments are bad.

When I was a young child I actually got bit by a pet rabbit. If I were like some people I would now believe that all rabbits are killers and will eat you if given a chance (Monty Python). I don't believe that nor do I believe that because some illegal aliens are just coming here to work hard, support their families, and be good citizens even though they are breaking a law just by being here, they ALL are like that. Considering that about 1/2 of the prisoners in California are illegal aliens disproves that fallacy.

As I clearly stated, Cops are human. There are good ones and there a bad ones.


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## Smokin04

oldmurph58 said:


> You do have a flair for the dramatic though "every single confrontation could be your last", Dude you claim to be a mp, whats gonna happen some majors wife hit you with a turkey at the commisary?





oldmurph58 said:


> Dude you need to go. I think you are one of the "very,very,few you speak of. In another thread you said you were ex civilian cop, then mp, then war hero, do you even know? I think your a faker and a bullslip artist. Maybe a lonesome loser somewhere? All your tours in war ravaged countries, how the only thing you enjoy is killin bad guys (you asked for that thread to be deleted becouse everyone thought you were a drunk with ptsd.) it just dont add up, and my nose is good, i can smell doo doo a long way off. your talk is enough for 3 life times. You had me goin, I actually felt sorry for you, now just sort of disgust.


Lets get something straight you senile old fart. If you could read, you would see where I clearly stated I was a prior MP. Was for 15 years. Spent 10 as K9. My dealings with civilian LEO's was numerous joint training ventures through the years. You see, in the modern era (a time you clearly don't understand) civilain PD and MP's often work/train together. After 15 years, I had enough and transfered into intelligence. I have deployed 8 times in the last 11 years including 2 combat tours and numerous support missions. If it wasn't a PII violation I would post my SURF (like you even know what that is) to prove it. Also, nowhere did I ever say I enjoyed killing bad guys, those must be your words. But then again, I don't need to prove shit to some 90 year old keyboard cowboy trying to piss me off. I don't give a good god damn if you think I'm full of shit or not. I know for a fact I've done and lost more for my country than some wannabe prior bullet cushion. It takes a real man to insult my service from behind a ****in keyboard. You're probably a POG anyway. You're not on my level, so **** off.


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## oldmurph58

Smokin04 said:


> Lets get something straight you senile old fart. If you could read, you would see where I clearly stated I was a prior MP. Was for 15 years. Spent 10 as K9. My dealings with civilian LEO's was numerous joint training ventures through the years. You see, in the modern era (a time you clearly don't understand) civilain PD and MP's often work/train together. After 15 years, I had enough and transfered into intelligence. I have deployed 8 times in the last 11 years including 2 combat tours and numerous support missions. If it wasn't a PII violation I would post my SURF (like you even know what that is) to prove it. Also, nowhere did I ever say I enjoyed killing bad guys, those must be your words. But then again, I don't need to prove shit to some 90 year old keyboard cowboy trying to piss me off. I don't give a good god damn if you think I'm full of shit or not. I know for a fact I've done and lost more for my country than some wannabe prior bullet cushion. It takes a real man to insult my service from behind a ****in keyboard. You're probably a POG anyway. You're not on my level, so **** off.


 fork you whippersnapper and dont get drunk talk ship and then ask the site to delete it,


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## ekim

See Slippy, you spoke to soon. Like a bad penny, it comes back to haunt you in the end. We common people are below those that "protect" us, by his own words. Makes a person "feel" warm and fuzzy inside don't it.


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## sparkyprep

Smokin, please continue to post. Understand that not everyone is going to agree on everything. I value your opinion, just like I value Oldmurph's. There is enough room on here for everyone. We don't all have to agree on everything. There are a few on here that I don't agree with very often, but sometimes I do. It doesn't stop me from posting, it doesn't even stop me from reading their posts and responding.


----------



## Rigged for Quiet

I live on the cusp of a major metropolitan area comprised of numerous communities. The town I live in had a population of less than 9K when we moved here but now exceeds 45K and growing. Along with the population growth there has been a natural growth of the police department. Interestingly enough we seem to be an attractive community for police officers who work for departments other than our's. It's also apparent that many of our own police officers do not live within our community.

We are among the lowest of low crime rate cities/municipalities in the state, and even the country, yet our own department members choose not to live here. I think it is an issue that so many metropolitan departments are comprised of members who are not a part of the community they serve. I have a neighbor who is a an officer in a city in that is a burb of Dallas but lives here, well over an hour away each way but yet he lives here. He says the school system was the main attraction, stable real estate market and low crime rate were the others. 

I think this why there exists a much better relationship in smaller communities and departments. Rather than an Us vs Them relationship there is a much stronger sense of community.


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## oldmurph58

to smokin 04:I aint trying to piss you off, I have pissed you off. Becouse I outed you as a phoney. read a post by old sf guy in the thread back when i was in the army, he talks about you bull shippers in depth. I dont believe you one bit.I just looked back on your posts you say "ive been a cop 15 years" so what gives? a cop or a mp or a uberhero? Phoney, and you claim your dog bit you? she knows your a clown too... good dog! a p2 surf what? you was agent orange huh? And Thank You Jesus I aint on his level. The date of the post" i was a cop" was 2/20 you were bullshivvin Paul s at the time. So no you were never clearly stated" I was a mp" fool. Quick now delete it.


----------



## Mad Trapper

I have encountered both very nice police officers who have been of great help in times of need such as accidents. 

I have also encountered the "jack booted thugs" that have violated my civil rights and would make heir Hitler proud.

Why do the good officers tolerate the later? The later get promoted to wreak further carnage on the Citizens!

This has led me to be skeptical and distrust, EVERY officer I encounter, unless I personally know what I am talking to.

The police would do everyone a service by policing their own, and getting the rouges fired ASAP.


----------



## Notsoyoung

oldmurph58 said:


> And now you claim intel? Oh hoho, breath deep murph, dont get started. Okay that explains the secret squirrel talk


I don't know why you started this flame war/personal attack but it is BORING, and frankly makes YOU look like a horses behind. Nothing Smoking04 has said would lead a reasonable person to believe that he was lying or inflating his resume. It appears that you go out of your way to either misunderstand what he is saying or just make allot of false assumptions. For example, you somehow think that you are making a clever point when you say that one time he referred to himself as a Cop and then another as an MP. Let me clarify that for you, while stationed in Germany my next door neighbor in Government housing was an MP. He often referred to himself as a COP, so it is hardly uncommon for them to do so. As for him changing from one MOS to another after several years, that is hardly unusual. I started out as a 11B (Infantry) then changed over to another MOS for the rest of my 20 years.

If you have a problem with someone and want to spend all of your posts attacking them, spare the rest of us and just send him a message.


----------



## oldmurph58

o.k. not so young another planet heard from, you win too, fellow old fart. I do think you are on the wrong side of the issues, sometimes, but hey good for you. and smokin 04 did ok, he stuck to his b.s. you his daddy? Read the whole thread he was soundin like gestapo to me and a few other folks too. Boring you? 


Notsoyoung said:


> I don't know why you started this flame war/personal attack but it is BORING, and frankly makes YOU look like a horses behind. Nothing Smoking04 has said would lead a reasonable person to believe that he was lying or inflating his resume. It appears that you go out of your way to either misunderstand what he is saying or just make allot of false assumptions. For example, you somehow think that you are making a clever point when you say that one time he referred to himself as a Cop and then another as an MP. Let me clarify that for you, while stationed in Germany my next door neighbor in Government housing was an MP. He often referred to himself as a COP, so it is hardly uncommon for them to do so. As for him changing from one MOS to another after several years, that is hardly unusual. I started out as a 11B (Infantry) then changed over to another MOS for the rest of my 20 years.
> 
> If you have a problem with someone and want to spend all of your posts attacking them, spare the rest of us and just send him a message.


----------



## Mad Trapper

Thank you for your service, we are all in debt.

In your years of experience have you encountered any "rotten apples"? If so how were they dealt with? Promoted?

I have distrust of ANY LEO I do not know due to illegal tactics being used on myself since I was a teenager. This mistrust has been reinforced regularly for at least 30 years. It is NOT an aberration, but a trend.

If you could share some instances, and I'am sure there must be many given your tenure, of how you have handled "BAD policing" that would be great.

Also, what is current politics within the blue shield on bad police?

P.S. I am talking to yourself as a "Good Policeman", and myself as a "Good Citizen". Peace be with you and God Bless.


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## oldmurph58

Not me, I guess, I usually avoid cops, when I can.


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## Notsoyoung

oldmurph58 said:


> o.k. not so young another planet heard from, you win too, fellow old fart. I do think you are on the wrong side of the issues, sometimes, but hey good for you. and smokin 04 did ok, he stuck to his b.s. you his daddy? Read the whole thread he was soundin like gestapo to me and a few other folks too. Boring you?


You were not attacking him on his views, but his personal history, none of which I found unrealistic. It is not unusual in today's Army for someone who has spent as much time in the military as he has stated to have 4 or 5 tours in Iraq or Afghanistan. My niece just left for her 4th. I do not agree with everything he says, but I do like reading them. No, I am not his daddy, he is someone who is posting his point of view, which is often interesting. What is NOT interesting is constantly calling other people names or using not so sly innuendo, like asking if I am his daddy.


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## Slippy

ekim said:


> See Slippy, you spoke to soon. Like a bad penny, it comes back to haunt you in the end. We common people are below those that "protect" us, by his own words. Makes a person "feel" warm and fuzzy inside don't it.


I'm a peace lovin' kinda guy. Just trying to get everyone to sing kumbaya. Let's direct our hatred toward the evil presence in Washington DC.


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## Mad Trapper

oldmurph58 said:


> Not me, I guess, I usually avoid cops, when I can.


Sorry Murph.

Must have linked to wrong post?

Last bad time was coming home from Cape Cod ( MSP do you know Hilter patterned the uniforms from SS by MSP?) , changing lanes legally, then being searched (illegally), and being found to have a cooler full of lobster in the locked trunk.

Sieg Hiel!!! MSP!!!!

P.S. MSP has a "shit list" whatever that is, I am sure it still exists and is illegal. I was honored by that, at 14 years of age, for standing on a friends lawn, and no doggy doo involved. Lots of MSP crapolla.........


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## oldmurph58

Notsoyoung said:


> You were not attacking him on his views, but his personal history, none of which I found unrealistic. It is not unusual in today's Army for someone who has spent as much time in the military as he has stated to have 4 or 5 tours in Iraq or Afghanistan. My niece just left for her 4th. I do not agree with everything he says, but I do like reading them. No, I am not his daddy, he is someone who is posting his point of view, which is often interesting. What is NOT interesting is constantly calling other people names or using not so sly innuendo, like asking if I am his daddy.


 ok notsoyoung read his post was"'they were campus cops not real cops" he drew the distinction not me. but let me ask you a question, do young folks in blue turn you on? hmm honey? You got a ignore list if I'm boring you. its oldmurph58. Oh, and draw any not so sly innuendo you care to, i'm just askin an innocent question. LISTEN to kumbya again, murph, quick.


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## oldmurph58

Mad Trapper said:


> Sorry Murph.
> 
> Must have linked to wrong post?
> 
> Last bad time was coming home from Cape Cod ( MSP do you know Hilter patterned the uniforms from SS by MSP?) , changing lanes legally, then being searched (illegally), and being found to have a cooler full of lobster in the locked trunk.
> 
> Sieg Hiel!!! MSP!!!!
> 
> P.S. MSP has a "shit list" whatever that is, I am sure it still exists and is illegal. I was honored by that, at 14 years of age, for standing on a friends lawn, and no doggy doo involved. Lots of MSP crapolla.........


 I believe you and i'll bet i'm on that list too.


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## inceptor

Mad Trapper said:


> Sorry Murph.
> 
> Must have linked to wrong post?
> 
> Last bad time was coming home from Cape Cod ( MSP do you know Hilter patterned the uniforms from SS by MSP?) , changing lanes legally, then being searched (illegally), and being found to have a cooler full of lobster in the locked trunk.
> 
> Sieg Hiel!!! MSP!!!!
> 
> P.S. MSP has a "shit list" whatever that is, I am sure it still exists and is illegal. I was honored by that, at 14 years of age, for standing on a friends lawn, and no doggy doo involved. *Lots of MSP* crapolla.........


MSP?

Montana State Police?

Movie Star Planet?

Microsoft Student Partners?

Mississippi State Penitentiary?


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## Mad Trapper

[QUOTE;121681]Lets get something straight you senile old fart. If you could read, you would see where I clearly stated I was a prior MP. Was for 15 years. Spent 10 as K9. My dealings with civilian LEO's was numerous joint training ventures through the years. You see, in the modern era (a time you clearly don't understand) civilain PD and MP's often work/train together. After 15 years, I had enough and transfered into intelligence. I have deployed 8 times in the last 11 years including 2 combat tours and numerous support missions. If it wasn't a PII violation I would post my SURF (like you even know what that is) to prove it. Also, nowhere did I ever say I enjoyed killing bad guys, those must be your words. But then again, I don't need to prove shit to some 90 year old keyboard cowboy trying to piss me off. I don't give a good god damn if you think I'm full of shit or not. I know for a fact I've done and lost more for my country than some wannabe prior bullet cushion. It takes a real man to insult my service from behind a ****in keyboard. You're probably a POG anyway. You're not on my level, so **** off.[/QUOTE]

A repost , I Think, not this time directed to Murph;

Nice profanity, you can FO tooo OP, if you continue to be uncivil you have a future in LEO!!!!

Thank you for your service, we are all in debt.

In your years of experience have you encountered any "rotten apples"? If so how were they dealt with? Promoted?

I have distrust of ANY LEO I do not know due to illegal tactics being used on myself since I was a teenager. This mistrust has been reinforced regularly for at least 30 years. It is NOT an aberration, but a trend.

If you could share some instances, and I'am sure there must be many given your tenure, of how you have handled "BAD policing" that would be great.

Also, what is current politics within the blue shield on bad police?

P.S. I am talking to yourself as a "Good Policeman", and myself as a "Good Citizen". Peace be with you and God Bless.


----------



## oldmurph58

Mass. state police


----------



## Mad Trapper

who else had the uniforms in the early 20th century? mASSachusetts State Police.

The ORIGINAL SS/Gestapo.

Been there done that. The shots fired in Lexington and Concord, have given mASSachusetts Citizens the rights you had in 1930s GERMANY

P.S. The "constitution state" has outdone mASS


----------



## Notsoyoung

oldmurph58 said:


> ok notsoyoung read his post was"'they were campus cops not real cops" he drew the distinction not me. but let me ask you a question, do young folks in blue turn you on? hmm honey? You got a ignore list if I'm boring you. its oldmurph58. Oh, and draw any not so sly innuendo you care to, i'm just askin an innocent question. LISTEN to kumbya again, murph, quick.


What a genius you are. If I don't believe that all cops are bad I must be gay. Speaking of gay, I noticed that you left the Army after 14 years, a little strange to get out after that period of time, became a nurse, and have 2 cats. It would appear that in YOUR case "Don't ask, don't tell" didn't work out so well. See, I took the time you were in the Army, used some old and outdated assumptions about male nurses, and tied that in with some moronic ideas about so-called "men" who own cats, not to mention a man who calls other men "honey", then implied that it is YOU who are gay. There certainly allot more signs from YOU that it is the case then anyone else in this forum. But don't worry, most of us aren't all that concerned about your sex life and we really don't care that you are a butt humping rump ranger........ See just how stupid and juvenile accusation like that are? What's next genius, going to call me a big poopy head? From your posts you may be older but certainly not wiser. You could be the poster boy for the old adage of "there is no fool like an old fool" or perhaps in your case it would be more appropriate to say "no queen like an old queen".


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## oldmurph58

Slippy glad you posted that song i put a person on the ignore list for a few days smokin04 stopped when i cried uncle the other "fellow" didn't hopefully i wont un block him and start monopolizing the board again KUMBYA


----------



## Denton

I've chatted with Smokin' on PM. We were both dog handlers; I'm just an older model. He is the real deal, in my opinion.

U.S. Army K-9 Corps. Talk Spit, Get Bit! :lol:


----------



## oldmurph58

and no fool like a old fool notsoyoung


----------



## ekim

Slippy said:


> I'm a peace lovin' kinda guy. Just trying to get everyone to sing kumbaya. Let's direct our hatred toward the evil presence in Washington DC.


I hear what you are saying, but the problems are right on our own streets too, not just Washington DC and they are a creditable threat to you at your front door! I will sing kumbaya when all those threats are taken care of and not until. Those in Washington and in state capitals may enact the laws, but those fine trust worthy people in uniform are the ones bringing it to your door step that we have to actually deal with. I have never seen a politician do their own dirty work, they have many minions to do that for them. And it appears that smokin 04 is just one of those minions who blindly WILL march in lock step. just saying......


----------



## Mad Trapper

Notsoyoung said:


> What a genius you are. If I don't believe that all cops are bad I must be gay. Speaking of gay, I noticed that you left the Army after 14 years, a little strange to get out after that period of time, became a nurse, and have 2 cats. It would appear that in YOUR case "Don't ask, don't tell" didn't work out so well. See, I took the time you were in the Army, used some old and outdated assumptions about male nurses, and tied that in with some moronic ideas about so-called "men" who own cats, not to mention a man who calls other men "honey", then implied that it is YOU who are gay. There certainly allot more signs from YOU that it is the case then anyone else in this forum. But don't worry, most of us aren't all that concerned about your sex life and we really don't care that you are a butt humping rump ranger........ See just how stupid and juvenile accusation like that are? What's next genius, going to call me a big poopy head? From your posts you may be older but certainly not wiser. You could be the poster boy for the old adage of "there is no fool like an old fool" or perhaps in your case it would be more appropriate to say "no queen like an old queen".


I would call YOU, GOOBER PYLE. And if the shoe fits its YOURS.

I bet you would like a 100lb woman in the foxhole with you, but not for covering your lazy azz.


----------



## The Resister

Notsoyoung said:


> Did you actually read the whole post? I specifically said that there are bad cops and bad departments and they need to be harshly punished. I was very clear on that and hardly "always thinks that the only reason a person gets picked on is that they were doing something illegal to begin with.". I believe that in many if not most cases that is what is happening but I am not naive enough to believe that all Cops are good, although it is clear that there are some who are naive enough to believe that if they have had a bad experience with one Cop or Department then ALL Gops/Departments are bad.
> 
> When I was a young child I actually got bit by a pet rabbit. If I were like some people I would now believe that all rabbits are killers and will eat you if given a chance (Monty Python). I don't believe that nor do I believe that because some illegal aliens are just coming here to work hard, support their families, and be good citizens even though they are breaking a law just by being here, they ALL are like that. Considering that about 1/2 of the prisoners in California are illegal aliens disproves that fallacy.
> 
> As I clearly stated, Cops are human. There are good ones and there a bad ones.


My problem is I read the *entire thread* and responded to a SIDE in this discussion that believes that the LEO community is automatically beyond reproach. If you felt that I singled you out by quoting a sentiment you specifically expressed, then I apologize to you individually.

OTOH, your next to last paragraph shows a lack of knowledge about our system, so that may also taint your personal view about the system in general. It absolutely is not true that people are breaking a law by *BEING IN* the United States. It's a small technicality, but one with far reaching implications. It pays to have the facts if you want to have a productive discussion. There are good cops and there are bad ones. But, the reality is, ALL cops are charged with enforcing the law and some of those laws are blatantly unconstitutional.

Virtually every cop will follow orders (you saw that with the Branch Davidians.) They are reluctant to follow the law as the Supreme Court opined: No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no court is bound to enforce it.


----------



## oldmurph58

You think cats are feminine? I'm just crushed. I notice you have no info on your bio why? Paranoid or pansy? Go to pg 6 read apex predators post, better yet read the whole thread and come back when you know what your talkin about, sweetie


----------



## Mad Trapper

The Resister said:


> My problem is I read the *entire thread* and responded to a SIDE in this discussion that believes that the LEO community is automatically beyond reproach. If you felt that I singled you out by quoting a sentiment you specifically expressed, then I apologize to you individually.
> 
> OTOH, your next to last paragraph shows a lack of knowledge about our system, so that may also taint your personal view about the system in general. It absolutely is not true that people are breaking a law by *BEING IN* the United States. It's a small technicality, but one with far reaching implications. It pays to have the facts if you want to have a productive discussion. There are good cops and there are bad ones. But, the reality is, ALL cops are charged with enforcing the law and some of those laws are blatantly unconstitutional.
> 
> Virtually every cop will follow orders (you saw that with the Branch Davidians.) They are reluctant to follow the law as the Supreme Court opined: No one is bound to obey and unconstitutional law and no court is bound to enforce it.


NOBODY is beyond reproach. Especially LEO.

If YOU follow UNLAWFUL orders, YOU are a CRIMINAL. I would say most LEO as OBAMA/HOLDER is giving the orders.

What do you do with a CRIMINAL ALIEN? Deport them? Coddle them as per Holder/Obama?

LEO IS NOT BOUND TO PROTECT, that is a fallicy , that is a reason for the 2nd amendment.


----------



## oldmurph58

Mad Trapper said:


> I would call YOU, GOOBER PYLE. And if the shoe fits its YOURS.
> 
> I bet you would like a 100lb woman in the foxhole with you, but not for covering your lazy azz.


 Thanx trapper, I must have hit too close to his home. those guys are a in your face, boisterous lot, just a thought.


----------



## The Resister

Mad Trapper said:


> NOBODY is beyond reproach. Especially LEO.
> 
> If YOU follow UNLAWFUL orders, YOU are a CRIMINAL. I would say most LEO as OBAMA/HOLDER is giving the orders.
> 
> What do you do with a CRIMINAL ALIEN? Deport them? Coddle them as per Holder/Obama?
> 
> LEO IS NOT BOUND TO PROTECT, that is a fallicy , that is a reason for the 2nd amendment.


You're changing the subject. IF such a "crime" existed as being a_ criminal alien_, Title 18 of the US Code (which deals with criminal law) would specify a criminal punishment. Now, let's talk about Obama, Holder, etc.

Obama only signs the legislation that Congress sends him - and the community organizer has been known to act on his own to create bad laws in the form of Executive Orders. Neither of those two men are LEOs. When the LEO community is upholding unconstitutional laws, what would YOU call them, Mad Trapper?


----------



## Denton

Thought a little more. 

Other than a stint as a narc dog handler (boring!), I worked sentry and patrol dogs at places requiring security in Germany. We were in the woods before the sun went down and didn't come out until after the sun came up. Bad weather meant we were going to patrol during the day and sleep another day. Winters brought long, cold nights and summers brought thick canopies and pitch black darkness. While actively searching for anyone who would be trying to penetrate security, the handlers responded to the panicked calls on the radio by tower guards who thought they saw something in the wood line. As I told the handlers assigned to me, "Your job is to say something on the radio before you die, so I'll be able to tell the duty officer where to send the rest of the MPs. I know your voice, I know what area you are patrolling, that's all I need to know."

PTSD was not uncommon for handlers back then, we just had no idea there was a name for the condition. That was during the "cold" war, though the few bullets thrown my way in the middle of the night were probably pretty hot. I suspect that the folks of the last few years develop some pretty serious anger management issues that stay with them long after they come back home, huh?


----------



## Denton

The Resister said:


> You're changing the subject. IF such a "crime" existed as being a_ criminal alien_, Title 18 of the US Code (which deals with criminal law) would specify a criminal punishment. Now, let's talk about Obama, Holder, etc.
> 
> Obama only signs the legislation that Congress sends him - and the community organizer has been known to act on his own to create bad laws in the form of Executive Orders. Neither of those two men are LEOs. When the LEO community is upholding unconstitutional laws, what would YOU call them, Mad Trapper?


Unprotected, and open to a title 42. That's my opinion, anyway.


----------



## oldmurph58

I remember catchin hedgehogs in germany at the blsa area, back in the day, was pretty lonley at night, thank god, they only gave me 3 bullets.


----------



## Denton

oldmurph58 said:


> I remember catchin hedgehogs in germany at the blsa area, back in the day, was pretty lonley at night, thank god, they only gave me 3 bullets.


:lol:::clapping::

My first sentry dog loved to go hedgehog hunting. Dunno why; there was little she could do with a bristle-ball once she caught it.


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## Mad Trapper

The Resister said:


> You're changing the subject. IF such a "crime" existed as being a_ criminal alien_, Title 18 of the US Code (which deals with criminal law) would specify a criminal punishment. Now, let's talk about Obama, Holder, etc.
> 
> Obama only signs the legislation that Congress sends him - and the community organizer has been known to act on his own to create bad laws in the form of Executive Orders. Neither of those two men are LEOs. When the LEO community is upholding unconstitutional laws, what would YOU call them, Mad Trapper?


Criminals.

They took an oath to uphold the US Constitution, from DOMESTIC and overseas/north/south.

Got a problem with CRIMINALS?


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## Denton

Here is what is the problem. Here is what we face. While a few cops work to stay within the confines of the constitution, and others will step out of those lines because they feel they are just doing their job, there are those who want to kick your door down for standing on the constitution.

CT Cop to Gun Owning Patriot John Cinque: ?I Cannot Wait to Get the Order to Kick Your Door In? : Freedom Outpost


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## oldmurph58

Yo smokin04 i sent a pm sayin sorry for gettin so personal


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## Mad Trapper

Denton said:


> Here is what is the problem. Here is what we face. While a few cops work to stay within the confines of the constitution, and others will step out of those lines because they feel they are just doing their job, there are those who want to kick your door down for standing on the constitution.
> 
> CT Cop to Gun Owning Patriot John Cinque: ?I Cannot Wait to Get the Order to Kick Your Door In? : Freedom Outpost


Yes a treasonous SOB as are the people who voted to pASS this unconstitutional OBamination.


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## Denton

Here's another example of Cops Gone Wild.


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## PalmettoTree

There are huge opportunities for law enforcement abuses. If you are not guilty and can prove it going to trial can cost you a lot of money. Reporting police poor behavior can be the safest method of dealing with people that should not be carrying a badge. Even if you are doing something as passive as videoing.


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## rickkyw1720pf

It's not only the big thing, What type of @ssholes would drive by 3 young girls selling lemonade and decide to shut them down. Don't tell me they couldn't just have ignored it.


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## oldmurph58

they took a oath! scumbuckets


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## Notsoyoung

oldmurph58 said:


> You think cats are feminine? I'm just crushed. I notice you have no info on your bio why? Paranoid or pansy? Go to pg 6 read apex predators post, better yet read the whole thread and come back when you know what your talkin about, sweetie


Have a problem with reading comprehension? Here is what I said "...tied that in with some moronic ideas about so-called "men" who own cats". Notice the "moronic ideas" part. That means that IMO is is moronic to believe that men who own cats are feminine. Why don't I have more info on my bio? Because I could care less about giving a stranger more info about my self. I do have to point out that you have called me both "honey" and "sweetie". Although I am sure that you are a manly man amongst men (snicker snicker), I am beginning to wonder if your "special" friends refer to you as Nancy, Sally, Sue, or maybe Sweet Lips. By the way, you messaged me to tell me that you put me on ignore and yet you are still responding to my posts. I guess besides being in the closet you are also a liar.


----------



## Notsoyoung

Mad Trapper said:


> I would call YOU, GOOBER PYLE. And if the shoe fits its YOURS.
> 
> I bet you would like a 100lb woman in the foxhole with you, but not for covering your lazy azz.


What in the hell are you babbling about? Call me about what? What shoe, and just how does a women in a fox hole with me come into the picture? Also, what have I ever said that would imply that I am a lazy ass? Are you off your medication, or are you self medicating yourself? Maybe you should sober up before posting.


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## oldmurph58

Let me tell you somethin good about our cops up here. we had 2 psycho's blow up some bombs at the marathon. my cousin mike, a boston cop, was workin the marathon.they searched and found the killers, took a couple days, prettty darn quick. a campus cop from m.i.t got shot in the head by them and died. He got a full military/police funeral, poor bastard. Even bagpipes. Cops from all over america came to show respect. A train cop, got baadly wounded in a gunfight with them. He lived thank god. The cops killed one in the gunfight , duckin home made hand grenades while doing it. Then the other guy got away, but the cops didnt quit, they just got pissed off. They found the scumbag hidein in a boat. They could have killed him and called it a day, but they caught him. Nows hes awaiting trial at ft. devens. I was waaay proud of them guys, and my cousin, and brother, both cops are still tops in my book. Other guys do wrong on a daily basis, but that search took balls, notsoyoung you are on my ignore list, you have nothin worthwhile to say to me. So I aint un blockin you.I'll come back in a couple days and read your drivel.


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## Notsoyoung

oldmurph58 said:


> notsoyoung you are on my ignore list, you have nothin worthwhile to say to me. So I aint un blockin you.I'll come back in a couple days and read your drivel.


Promise?


----------



## StarPD45

Unfortunately, I read stories much worse than the OPs every day. We are well on our way down the slippery slope.
.
Are there good cops out there? Of course there are, but this crap gives all of them a bad name. So who do you trust?


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## Notsoyoung

IMO it's not the transgressions by some local cops or departments that really concern me, it's the ones from the Federal Agencies. The local cops that do things like that are usually the result of bad training, political favors and letting substandard people join the force, and corrupt departments that try to cover up the abuses of some of their officers. These can usually be rectified by elections or firing the heads of the departments. The Federal ones are what worry me the most because they are more politically driven and it is much harder to change the direction that they have gone, and their attitudes filter down to the local departments. IMO the Federal agencies are much more likely to develop an attitude that citizens are the enemy then are local LEO's who very often are from and live in the area they police. I still believe that the majority of LEOs are not only good but are needed, and the bad ones need to ruthlessly punished where appropriate and gotten rid of.


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## inceptor

Which direction this country takes will largely depend on what happens in CT. Will the LE (both federal and local) community back off or will they force the issue?


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## jro1

like the kid who got shot wielding a wii remote!


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## oldmurph58

I missed that whole thing about a kid gettin shot holdin a remote got i site i can read it at?


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## inceptor

Here is the link

Kid Shot Dead By Cops, Witnesses Say He Was Holding Wii Remote


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## jro1

you beat me to it! ha


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## oldmurph58

just found it, tragic.i'm gonna hold off on any rant kinda stunned


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## Notsoyoung

Add to that the two NY cops who were shooting at a criminal and wounded something like 8 or 9 bystanders. Some "gun control" should be applied to those two clowns.


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## Smokin04

Mad Trapper said:


> Thank you for your service, we are all in debt.
> 
> In your years of experience have you encountered any "rotten apples"? If so how were they dealt with? Promoted?
> 
> I have distrust of ANY LEO I do not know due to illegal tactics being used on myself since I was a teenager. This mistrust has been reinforced regularly for at least 30 years. It is NOT an aberration, but a trend.
> 
> *If you could share some instances, and I'am sure there must be many given your tenure, of how you have handled "BAD policing" that would be great.*
> 
> Also, what is current politics within the blue shield on bad police?
> 
> P.S. I am talking to yourself as a "Good Policeman", and myself as a "Good Citizen". Peace be with you and God Bless.


Thank you for the thanks. When I was a flight chief (equivalent of like a civilian Sgt. or Capt, who ever runs the shift), if I got word that one of my men was behaving in any way outside of the instructed guidelines, or my policies, I dealt with them immediately. I don't have room on my shift for rule breakers. I held my cops to a higher standard. If they deviated even slightly...they were dealt with accordingly. Smoke sessions, reprimands, etc. I didn't tolerate unprofessionalism...ever. My cops didn't like me all the time, mainly because I didn't tolerate excuses. We learned to co-exist. They did what I asked, our flight won awards for awesomeness and we learned to gel. Forming, storming, norming, performing...we reached the performing phase.

One example (I did have many) I had a troop decide he wanted to post on facebook that he hated being a cop. That our beret wasn't worth wiping his ass with. So I get called in by the Superintendent on my much needed day off and get my ass chewed. Like up and down chewed. So in true cop fashion...I called the troop in on his day off and returned the ass chewing I got. Then the Super wrote him a reprimand (a big deal) and I wrote him a crappy performance report. Long story short, he's not in the military anymore.



oldmurph58 said:


> Yo smokin04 i sent a pm sayin sorry for gettin so personal


PM replied. It's all good. I don't hold grudges.



Notsoyoung said:


> IMO it's not the transgressions by some local cops or departments that really concern me, it's the ones from the Federal Agencies. The local cops that do things like that are usually the result of bad training, political favors and letting substandard people join the force, and corrupt departments that try to cover up the abuses of some of their officers. These can usually be rectified by elections or firing the heads of the departments. The Federal ones are what worry me the most because they are more politically driven and it is much harder to change the direction that they have gone, and their attitudes filter down to the local departments. IMO the Federal agencies are much more likely to develop an attitude that citizens are the enemy then are local LEO's who very often are from and live in the area they police. I still believe that the majority of LEOs are not only good but are needed, and the *bad ones need to ruthlessly punished where appropriate and gotten rid of*.


I couldn't agree more. And they usually are when found out. Those cases are rarely shown in the news because local dept's don't want to attach their good (or at least not bad) name to a POS cop. I have never said that all cops were shining examples of humanity. More so that the US is in need of good cops...and the bad ones need to go bye-bye. I do not condone the actions of the cops depicted in this thread. I also don't know what their local policies are either. But rest assured I wouldn't act on unconstitutional laws. I'm protected by laws that keep me from having to follow unlawful orders. Unfortunately, it is on the end user to show how the issued order is unlawful. Not always easy to do...especially when you don't have but a moment to decide whats right or wrong.


----------



## Denton

StarPD45 said:


> Unfortunately, I read stories much worse than the OPs every day. We are well on our way down the slippery slope.
> .
> Are there good cops out there? Of course there are, but this crap gives all of them a bad name. So who do you trust?


That's the 64k dollar question, isn't it? Also, to what degree are they trustworthy?

In my little neck of the woods, they are trusted to violate your rights, just like any other cop in any other PD will, nowadays. The things that anger people such as Resistor and myself. On the critical things such as what what the people in Connecticut are facing, our guys, both at the state and municipal level, will close ranks with us. I feel confident that the chief's office will be the resistance tactical operations center.


----------



## The Resister

Mad Trapper said:


> Criminals.
> 
> They took an oath to uphold the US Constitution, from DOMESTIC and overseas/north/south.
> 
> Got a problem with CRIMINALS?


Since I don't know how to respond to your post, let me repeat a point I've made many times. You refer to a set of people as "_criminals_" when you can't show a crime that has been committed. It's the* PRIME* reason we're talking about a POLICE STATE. Let me give you a view from George Bush's Attorney General, Michael Mukasey as he addressed the liberal American Bar Association (BTW, they had the same reaction you're about to have):

"_Not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime,_"

Mukasey: ?Not Every Wrong, Or . . . Every Violation of the Law, is a Crime? - Law Blog - WSJ

If you're going to enforce the law, you'd better learn the differences between civil and criminal laws. The pro - LEO side has not shown any ability to do that.


----------



## midtnfamilyguy

so what about a violation of the criminal law? As I read this, it was about civil service law.


----------



## Montana Rancher

Beach Kowboy said:


> I just came across this and thought it was pretty ****ed up. A college professor/student notices a map is wrong. She corrects it and someone calls the police. Sure, she was wrong to do it. But call the ****ing cops?! The cop is a TOTAL douche bag fat boy that must have something to prove. He had an attitude from the very beginning. What I don't understand is why she had to go to the station for a citation. Unless they wanted to book her to get her information in the system. Cops like these are the ones that will fire on you no questions asked when the time comes. Here is the link and video..
> 
> College Sends Police to Arrest Its Employee After She Marked on Wall Map to Help Students ? Cop?s Lapel Camera Caught the Whole Thing | Video | TheBlaze.com


Personally I thought it was funny when a educator was hand cuffed for telling the truth, welcome though police!


----------



## The Resister

midtnfamilyguy said:


> so what about a violation of the criminal law? As I read this, it was about civil service law.


You would have to follow all of Mad Trapper's posts on this thread in order to understand the issue he tried to sneak in. The bottom line is that civil law is civil law and criminal law is criminal law. Those who favor a POLICE STATE push the notion that anything which violates ANY code, statute, etc. is a "_crime_." Then, the POLICE STATE advocates want the equivalent of a felony to be applied to any violation of any law.

As a result of that mindset you get the very outcome that started the basis for this thread. If you Mad Trapper's earlier posts you will find him referring to civil statutes as being _"crimes_." Once we've stripped away all the layers of political B.S. we find the root cause of what causes the LEO community to end up being corrupt.


----------



## oldmurph58

midtnfamilyguy said:


> so what about a violation of the criminal law? As I read this, it was about civil service law.


I think laws get most people confused, criminal, civil, I know it confuses hell out of me, then I get confused about basic right and wrong too. Just couse its wrong dont mean its illegal. Sorta like the O.J case walked in criminal court, convicted in civil court, rules of evidence, shoot, even lawyers dont agree on what is lawful or not. Thats why I like this site. I learn somethin new every day


----------



## midtnfamilyguy

Resister and Oldmurph, thanks for the replies . My point was to try to get some thought processes working and to point out that fact. Just because a civil law is broken, it doesn't make it a crime. Hell, I'm a police officer and i don't want a police state any more than ya'll do. Thanks for helping.


----------



## Notsoyoung

Just to clarify, I do not believe that guarding our border leads in any way to us being a police state. IMO that falls under "provide for the common defense" which is one of the main purposes of there being a Federal Government. Trying to keep unwanted illegal aliens out of the country like we have here is a whole lot different from trying to keep you citizens IN like we saw with the Berlin Wall, and those who try to draw a parallel are ridiculous. We don't have mine fields and guards with machine guns who shoot people trying to leave the country like they had in Berlin. 

IMO something else to keep in mind is that although there is a danger of us becoming a police state, and there are many instances of bad police officers and bad police departments, we aren't there yet. If we were, not only would not hear about these incidents, but we most certainly not be able to come on a forum like this and talk about it. What concerns me more then incompetent, corrupt, or criminal cops (cops who are criminals), are things like a DOJ who refuses to enforce U.S. laws based on political or racial concerns, or uses Federal agencies such as the IRS, FBI, DEA, ATF, EPA, and other 3 letter organizations to attack their political enemies.


----------



## oldmurph58

Notsoyoung said:


> Have a problem with reading comprehension? Here is what I said "...tied that in with some moronic ideas about so-called "men" who own cats". Notice the "moronic ideas" part. That means that IMO is is moronic to believe that men who own cats are feminine. Why don't I have more info on my bio? Because I could care less about giving a stranger more info about my self. I do have to point out that you have called me both "honey" and "sweetie". Although I am sure that you are a manly man amongst men (snicker snicker), I am beginning to wonder if your "special" friends refer to you as Nancy, Sally, Sue, or maybe Sweet Lips. By the way, you messaged me to tell me that you put me on ignore and yet you are still responding to my posts. I guess besides being in the closet you are also a liar.


 Didnt lie, I saw mad trappers reply, when he replied with quote, I was pushin your buttons. Even ignoring you pissed you off. Today is 3/10 your un blocked. tip; dont explain why you are callin a guy a moron, if he is he wont get it anyway. I knew what you were sayin, I just wanted to piss you off. Dang your easy, no hard feelings.


----------



## oldmurph58

Notsoyoung said:


> Promise?


 Heck no.:razz:


----------



## midtnfamilyguy

At least 250 CT cops refuse to enforce law | Cops Support Gun Rights

this is an article where Ct. cops have said they wouldn't enforce the law, but also an editorial where the writer also doesn't fully believe about an officer wanting to kick doors in. Food for thought


----------



## oldmurph58

midtnfamilyguy said:


> At least 250 CT cops refuse to enforce law | Cops Support Gun Rights
> 
> this is an article where Ct. cops have said they wouldn't enforce the law, but also an editorial where the writer also doesn't fully believe about an officer wanting to kick doors in. Food for thought


 Good site thanks


----------



## Vagabond

Smokin04 said:


> I know EVERY law I must enforce. Articles 77-134 of the UCMJ. I know them down to the letter. I may be a tad sharper than the average knife though.
> 
> Which you could not do unless you're beyond the smartest lawyer in the world. Your interpretation of the constitution varies as much as the next guys. That's why there are so many amendments to it. The misconceptions of people about written law is FAR mor abundant than corruption of peace officers.
> 
> And the problem with the general public is that they THINK they know the laws better than SOME of the police they encounter. Sure, a lawyer probably knows the case law that caused certain laws to be written, or amendments to become drafted...if that's the case, then all lawyers should be cops that enforce said laws. Oops...never going to happen because lawyers are pussies and book nerds (did that offend anyone?) and incapable of remembering the law that directs them to pull the trigger when a gun is pointed at their dome.
> 
> And I'm a prior military cop, far different from the civilian realm. They don't get the same training we get. They don't get tested repeatedly on it. With that being said...there are still some VERY smart cops in the world. In reality, most cops follow their training because it's what you fall back on. It's all you got. So if the training is flawed, the product is flawed. In a nutshell, don't blame the cops...blame the law makers, and blame the lack of consistent training.
> 
> I do not assume I can change anyones opinions about the police. I don't care to either. But, I take offense to the word thug. Think about it. The police go where CALLED. The police respond when their HELP IS NEEDED, not just where ever the wind takes them. Cops don't just arrest every person in sight because they're standing there. In reality, more people get detained for questioning to sort through the bullshit lies that people throw at them. If people wouldn't lie so damn much, their jobs would be that much easier. Why don't people lie to their spouses? Don't want to piss them off right? Want to piss off a cop? Lie to them. It's no different. I get tired of sorting through peoples personal feelings/hatred towards cops because literally that feeling is the only thing that makes the job hard.
> 
> It has and always will be a thank less job. People hate it when their wrong. Cops are usually the people telling them they are...which is why the hatred is there. Just remember, if people would QUIT BREAKING THE ****ING LAW, there would be no reason for police. Anywhere. Ever.


Untrue. More laws are made as time goes on. There is absolutely no law against lying to a cop when being questioned on the street. Supposedly you're not even under arrest at that moment, though if you try to walk away from them, they can haul you in for resisting. Don't make sense. Resisting arrest while not under arrest...

You may have more knowledge of laws as it is your job, but to claim to know every law you uphold is bold. No cop, military or otherwise, has the ability to retain every single law ever made. It's impossible. I bet you'll even claim to never break laws yourself. I bet you do. Whether it's spitting on a sidewalk (little spittle being released after running is included) or jay walking, or whatever. There is not a single person in the world that can refrain from breaking laws for a length of time.

Cops can follow you while driving. They can follow you all day long if they wish, and when you swerve to where your tire hits that painted line in the street, they can pull you over. You didn't break a law by touching that line, but it's enough to stop you in case you've been drinking. You might do everything right for your hour long drive, and fail to use your turn signal while pulling into your drive, you just broke a law. Do you get hauled in to get your citation?

I can and do respect any given cop, regardless of where they enforce the law. Military, local, state, county, etc. The problem comes when they stop protecting the people. The best advice I've heard lately is to say absolutely nothing to a cop when you're being questioned. You can opt to say absolutely nothing, You're already seen as guilty at that point, and whatever you say WILL incriminate you, so exercise your fifth amendment right and don't say a word.

All this is assuming you need to know all 67 articles and nothing more, as a cop... Not to pick on you personally, just think its absurd to justify why its ok to treat a human being like they did that woman, by merely saying don't break the ****ing law and this won't happen to you.


----------



## The Resister

midtnfamilyguy said:


> Resister and Oldmurph, thanks for the replies . My point was to try to get some thought processes working and to point out that fact. Just because a civil law is broken, it doesn't make it a crime. Hell, I'm a police officer and i don't want a police state any more than ya'll do. Thanks for helping.


I speak out against the mindset of the Republican Establishment and misguided Tea Party just as much as I do the LEO community. Thanks for not personalizing it. As you learn in my next post, few people understand the law and it only takes a few sentences to watch them have a melt-down. If you don't want a POLICE STATE, then watch the side that does...


----------



## The Resister

Notsoyoung said:


> Just to clarify, I do not believe that guarding our border leads in any way to us being a police state. IMO that falls under "provide for the common defense" which is one of the main purposes of there being a Federal Government. Trying to keep unwanted illegal aliens out of the country like we have here is a whole lot different from trying to keep you citizens IN like we saw with the Berlin Wall, and those who try to draw a parallel are ridiculous. We don't have mine fields and guards with machine guns who shoot people trying to leave the country like they had in Berlin.
> 
> IMO something else to keep in mind is that although there is a danger of us becoming a police state, and there are many instances of bad police officers and bad police departments, we aren't there yet. If we were, not only would not hear about these incidents, but we most certainly not be able to come on a forum like this and talk about it. What concerns me more then incompetent, corrupt, or criminal cops (cops who are criminals), are things like a DOJ who refuses to enforce U.S. laws based on political or racial concerns, or uses Federal agencies such as the IRS, FBI, DEA, ATF, EPA, and other 3 letter organizations to attack their political enemies.


You're funny Notsoyoung. You remind me of the liberals with their _wall of separation between church and state_. It's a funny "_wall._" The government gets to intrude on the Rights of individuals who belong to a church; however, the almighty STATE is immune to the _wall of separation_.

Your claim is that building a wall to keep people you've dubbed _"illegal aliens_" out is not the same as the Berlin Wall. What a freaking lie! *EVERY* piece of POLICE STATE legislation has been passed on the premise of fighting the non-existent "_crime_" of illegal immigration (sic.) Drones that can be used against U.S, citizens... bought and paid for... even manned with money that was supposed to keep us safe from those "_illegal aliens_." The so - called "_Patriot Act_" and the National ID / REAL ID Act were introduced by a Tea Party supporter, Rep. James Sensenbrenner. The same wall that will be used to try and keep foreigners out most assuredly will be used to keep Americans in. That, sir, is why the new laws force us to carry ID and a passport (which was not necessary in earlier times.) More often than not, the anti - foreigner laws you support (like keeping foreigners out) are the ones being used against American citizens.

Notsoyoung, you obviously have not read this thread. I *AM* under investigation for my comments on this thread. I've also left umpteen links where you can find entire police departments routinely wiping their ass on the Constitution. Most LEO organizations not only enforce all the laws on the books, they tend to go overboard. What you want is *NOT* legal. You want the government to enforce nonexistent laws (you've even mentioned a set) in order to make you feel safe at a cost to the public Liberties of *ALL* American citizens. Again, not every violation of the law is a crime.


----------



## Slippy

What would happen if the next time I get stopped for speeding or at a DUI checkpoint that when the officer approaches and begins asking me questions, I keep my mouth shut, hand the officer my DL and a copy of the Bill of Rights with the 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendments highlighted? 

Serious question.


----------



## Notsoyoung

the resister said:


> you're funny notsoyoung. You remind me of the liberals with their _wall of separation between church and state_. It's a funny "_wall._" the government gets to intrude on the rights of individuals who belong to a church; however, the almighty state is immune to the _wall of separation_.
> 
> Your claim is that building a wall to keep people you've dubbed _"illegal aliens_" out is not the same as the berlin wall. What a freaking lie! *every* piece of police state legislation has been passed on the premise of fighting the non-existent "_crime_" of illegal immigration (sic.) drones that can be used against u.s, citizens... Bought and paid for... Even manned with money that was supposed to keep us safe from those "_illegal aliens_." the so - called "_patriot act_" and the national id / real id act were introduced by a tea party supporter, rep. James sensenbrenner. The same wall that will be used to try and keep foreigners out most assuredly will be used to keep americans in. That, sir, is why the new laws force us to carry id and a passport (which was not necessary in earlier times.) more often than not, the anti - foreigner laws you support (like keeping foreigners out) are the ones being used against american citizens.
> 
> Notsoyoung, you obviously have not read this thread. I *am* under investigation for my comments on this thread. I've also left umpteen links where you can find entire police departments routinely wiping their ass on the constitution. Most leo organizations not only enforce all the laws on the books, they tend to go overboard. What you want is *not* legal. You want the government to enforce nonexistent laws (you've even mentioned a set) in order to make you feel safe at a cost to the public liberties of *all* american citizens. Again, not every violation of the law is a crime.


lmfao.


----------



## The Resister

Slippy said:


> What would happen if the next time I get stopped for speeding or at a DUI checkpoint that when the officer approaches and begins asking me questions, I keep my mouth shut, hand the officer my DL and a copy of the Bill of Rights with the 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendments highlighted?
> 
> Serious question.


IDK what would happen, but if you want some info along those lines:


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## Notsoyoung

I just heard on the news an illegal alien refer to him and his compadres as "illegal aliens". If they aren't in the country following legal means, they are ILLEGAL.


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## The Resister

Notsoyoung said:


> lmfao.


And that, friends, is *WHY* we live in a POLICE STATE.


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## Notsoyoung

The Resister said:


> And that, friends, is *WHY* we live in a POLICE STATE.


Once again, LMFAO.


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## The Resister

Notsoyoung said:


> I just heard on the news an illegal alien refer to him and his compadres as "illegal aliens". If they aren't in the country following legal means, they are ILLEGAL.


Notsoyoung, a man that can't use his brains may as well have been born with two assholes. The reason we live in a POLICE STATE is largely the fault of the voting electorate. They absolutely cannot and will not try to understand the difference between civil laws and criminal laws. Then they want every violation of the law prosecuted. Most of the youth in this country cannot find a job because every youthful indiscretion has become a damn crime. Furthermore, acts that are not crimes are pursued by the uneducated dumb masses who think a democratic vote will prove that a civil law is a crime. We've done this a hundred times on this board. The lefties among us love my response because they can get moderators to delete the thread, but the truth is the truth. Read carefully the* RULING* BY THE HIGHEST IMMIGRATION OFFICIAL IN THE UNITED STATES:

"_Aliens in removal proceedings have no right to counsel, including Government-appointed counsel, under the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution because the Sixth Amendment applies only to criminal proceedings and *removal proceedings are civil in nature*_." Matter of Enrique Salas COMPEAN, Respondent 24 I&N Dec. 710 (A.G. 2009)

http://www.justice.gov/eoir/vll/intdec/vol24/3632.pdf

No matter how you present this to silly people, they think they can brow beat their way into making immigration a crime. Sorry guys, it ain't in Title 18 AND the downside for the citizenry is that if even ONE civil violation of the law is allowed to be treated as a crime, then *EVERY* civil violation can be treated like a crime. You can find that in the 14th Amendment. Stupid people don't want to understand the facts; therefore, they loathe the POLICE STATE when it's applied against them while upholding the precedent that gives cause for LEOs to treat every violation of the law as if it were a federal crime and National Security depended upon neutralizing the violator.


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## Notsoyoung

Isn't it strange that when they catch these ILLEGAL ALIENS they are handcuffed and escorted by ARMED GUARDS? 

If we lived in a real police state do you think that this forum would even be here? Frankly I hope to see our military moved from overseas and stationed along our borders, armed, and ready to repel all ILLEGAL INVADERS.


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## The Resister

Notsoyoung said:


> Isn't it strange that when they catch these ILLEGAL ALIENS they are handcuffed and escorted by ARMED GUARDS?
> 
> If we lived in a real police state do you think that this forum would even be here? Frankly I hope to see our military moved from overseas and stationed along our borders, armed, and ready to repel all ILLEGAL INVADERS.


Isn't it strange for the crime of DUI, the violator is sent to jail / prison? Isn't it strange that the person who commits the crime of possession of controlled substances is also sent to jail / prison? Isn't it strange that the guy who commits murder is sent to prison and, in some cases, executed? I mean you should find that strange because the person that you call an _"illegal alien_" is held in custody, wined and dined like royalty and then processed with a free ride home. Notsoyoung, where is it you live that the cops pick you up when you're driving around drunk as a skunk and give you a freaking ride home?

You, like the other morons that sound like bleating sheep, can keep saying _"illegal alien_" all day long as if that will make it come true, meanwhile you will get 10 million new neighbors without a fricking clue as to how it happened. Congress *tried* to create the crime of unlawful entry; however the bill failed. Guys like you walk around with your hands in your pockets, sounding like a bunch of parrots with that "_illegal alien_" horseshit while the ultimate cost is the public Liberty and the knowledge that the first time your side failed to get a bill passed, you quit only to wage war against the only people that were fighting to defend the Constitution.


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## oldmurph58

Notsoyoung said:


> Isn't it strange that when they catch these ILLEGAL ALIENS they are handcuffed and escorted by ARMED GUARDS?
> 
> If we lived in a real police state do you think that this forum would even be here? Frankly I hope to see our military moved from overseas and stationed along our borders, armed, and ready to repel all ILLEGAL INVADERS.


 You know a lot more about immigration stuff than I do, but when the Murphy's came to america they were starvin. The English stole all the Irish people crops. Becouse G.B. is our allie we teach our people about the potato famine being the cause, but they had lots of crops, and farm animals too. We just dont want to make our allie look bad . Then when they got here, the only jobs they could get was cop and fireman, thats why the stereotype of the Irish cop. like I say, I dont know about it as well as you but, I'm glad us murphy's found a place to go to.I did see a t.v. documentary about mexican dope dealers comming across the border though so I'm glad I live far away. Would not want to be ambushed by them.


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## Charles Martel

Notsoyoung said:


> If we lived in a real police state do you think that this forum would even be here?


Make no mistake, We DO currently live in a soft police state (I call it a surveillance state). We really can't move or travel freely anymore (we must show "papers" and submit to thorough "security" screenings in order to board an airplane...even for domestic flights), and our every move, purchase, email, text and phone call is monitored and potentially recorded. You really can't go anywhere without being tracked. Nearly every major intersection in most towns is equipped with cameras that record every vehicle that passes through it. If you have a smart phone, they know where you are at any given moment of any day within a few feet. Every day the despots in Washington announce some new restriction on our freedoms.

The statists that run our government know they can't safely remove our first amendment freedoms yet. We're still armed, and there are still enough of us that understand our rights to resist them. When my generation is gone, and the brainwashed millennials give up their guns and forget they even had the right to free speech, sites like this will disappear overnight.


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## Inor

Charles Martel said:


> Make no mistake, We DO currently live in a soft police state (I call it a surveillance state). We really can't move or travel freely anymore (we must show "papers" and submit to thorough "security" screenings in order to board an airplane...even for domestic flights), and our every move, purchase, email, text and phone call is monitored and potentially recorded. You really can't go anywhere without being tracked. Nearly every major intersection in most towns is equipped with cameras that record every vehicle that passes through it. If you have a smart phone, they know where you are at any given moment of any day within a few feet. Every day the despots in Washington announce some new restriction on our freedoms.


But you have to admit, it is kind of funny to watch how upset they get when their own spy apparatus is turned on them...

Feinstein: CIA searched Intelligence Committee computers - The Washington Post


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## Charles Martel

Inor said:


> But you have to admit, it is kind of funny to watch how upset they get when their own spy apparatus is turned on them...
> 
> Feinstein: CIA searched Intelligence Committee computers - The Washington Post


They never seem to like it when the shoe is on the other foot, do they?

Man, I'm not sure who I hate worse, though...the CIA/NSA or that hideous woman.


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## Beach Kowboy

Charles Martel said:


> They never seem to like it when the shoe is on the other foot, do they?
> 
> Man, I'm not sure who I hate worse, though...the CIA/NSA or that hideous woman.


That hideous woman is an enemy of the state as far as I'm concerned. The next news article I would like to see is "FeinBitch gangbanged by a pack of silverback gorillas,then hit by bus and after that was hit and dragged 62 miles by a freight train!!


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## inceptor

oldmurph58 said:


> You know a lot more about immigration stuff than I do, but when the Murphy's came to america they were starvin. The English stole all the Irish people crops. Becouse G.B. is our allie we teach our people about the potato famine being the cause, but they had lots of crops, and farm animals too. We just dont want to make our allie look bad . Then when they got here, the only jobs they could get was cop and fireman, thats why the stereotype of the Irish cop. like I say, I dont know about it as well as you but, I'm glad us murphy's found a place to go to.I did see a t.v. documentary about mexican dope dealers comming across the border though so I'm glad I live far away. Would not want to be ambushed by them.


I'll bet you though that the Murphy's didn't sneak across the border then demand food stamps and medicaid.

My family came in the right way also.


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## inceptor

Inor said:


> But you have to admit, it is kind of funny to watch how upset they get when their own spy apparatus is turned on them...
> 
> Feinstein: CIA searched Intelligence Committee computers - The Washington Post


I got really good laugh out of that one when I heard it.


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## The Resister

inceptor said:


> I'll bet you though that the Murphy's didn't sneak across the border then demand food stamps and medicaid.
> 
> My family came in the right way also.


You're out of touch with reality inceptor. The average person that comes to America doesn't "_sneak_" in and demand food stamps and Medicaid. They come into the United States with the intention of working and providing for their family. The Democrats come along and all but FORCE them to get a Taxpayer ID Number, sign up for government services and then school them on how to operate until the government can give them citizenship and allow them to vote for their caring "benefactors."


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## inceptor

The Resister said:


> You're out of touch with reality inceptor.


I guess I need to rethink my position. When both you and Lance think I'm out of touch with reality, well there must be something to that.


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## Slippy

The sad reality is that Resistor AND Inceptor are both correct. In the past, people came to the US to work and provide a better life for their family. The Dems saw this as a way to increase their voter base. Now many come for the free stuff because they know that it is free for the taking. Not to mention that they know they can make a good buck selling dope for the cartels.


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## Notsoyoung

The Resister said:


> You're out of touch with reality inceptor. The average person that comes to America doesn't "_sneak_" in and demand food stamps and Medicaid. They come into the United States with the intention of working and providing for their family. The Democrats come along and all but FORCE them to get a Taxpayer ID Number, sign up for government services and then school them on how to operate until the government can give them citizenship and allow them to vote for their caring "benefactors."


Bull. The last time there were talks about cutting food stamps the Mexican government protested to the U.S.. Approximately 1/2 of the prisoners in California are ILLEGAL ALIENS. The idea that the government forces ILLEGALS to sign up for government services is ludicrous. The problems and costs because of these invaders far outweigh the benefits. It doesn't take a genius to understand that the type of people who will ignore our Country's laws and processes to come here and then once here start demanding that THEY get the same treatment as those who did follow all the rules to get here are NOT the type of people you want as citizens. If they didn't respect out laws to get here, why anyone with common sense would believe that they would once they got here is beyond me.


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## Notsoyoung

Diane Feinstein is the same one who said something along the line that her ultimate goal was to remove ALL firearms from U.S. society while at the same time SHE had a CC license. In her latest gun control attempt she exempted members of Congress from her proposed laws. She was one of the staunchest supporters of the NSA when it became public that it was spying on U.S. Citizens, but is going hysterical when she thinks that the CIA may be spying on HER. She is a hypocritical piece of garbage.


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## Slippy

Notsoyoung,
Its not that the government "forces" the illegal to sign up for benefits, but rather makes it so easy to do so. As I pointed out, those that come her now know that they can get free stuff to help themselves and their family. PLus as you and I both pointed out, so many of the illegals are criminals and scumbags working for the drug cartels. Nowadays, I do not believe for a minute that anyone sneaking across our borders truly want to work.


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## Notsoyoung

Slippy - I agree. Furthermore, if many of them want to work, SO WHAT? We have people waiting in line for months if not years to get here, THEY want to work, and somehow we are supposed to give a free pass to people who are unwilling to go through the process? Like I keep saying, if they are unwilling to follow our laws just to get here, what makes anyone thing they will suddenly start doing so once they get here?


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## Slippy

The world is FUBAR.


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## inceptor

For what it's worth, take a look.


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## oldmurph58

incepto,r like my bro infidel, you find stuff thats sorts thrue the bullshit real well,lthanks


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## SAR-1L

Well if it isn't an old saying it should be.... If you can't buy the vote of the peasants you have, buy new peasants. 

Sums it up pretty well don't you think?


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## ATRPrepping

Omg so many things wrong with this scenario. I don't even know where to begin.


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## Denton

ATRPrepping said:


> Omg so many things wrong with this scenario. I don't even know where to begin.


Look, man; you have to pick a place and start from there. You can do it!


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## The Resister

Notsoyoung said:


> Bull. The last time there were talks about cutting food stamps the Mexican government protested to the U.S.. Approximately 1/2 of the prisoners in California are ILLEGAL ALIENS. The idea that the government forces ILLEGALS to sign up for government services is ludicrous. The problems and costs because of these invaders far outweigh the benefits. It doesn't take a genius to understand that the type of people who will ignore our Country's laws and processes to come here and then once here start demanding that THEY get the same treatment as those who did follow all the rules to get here are NOT the type of people you want as citizens. If they didn't respect out laws to get here, why anyone with common sense would believe that they would once they got here is beyond me.


Notsoyoung, you've wanted to make this thread about a people you call _"illegals_." You and your ilk don't have the intestinal fortitude to start a thread about the topic AND I would challenge you to start one on a board that did not delete immigration threads. Just for chits and giggles:

You have a POLICE STATE primarily because it was allowed under the guise of fighting "_illegal immigration_." Well sir, *NO SUCH CRIME AS "ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION" EXISTS!* It is not a crime to come here and it's not a crime to be here without the human registration papers. It's all civil law.

"_If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy_."
― James Madison

If everybody will recall, it was the REPUBLICANS that wanted to give citizenship to those without papers. Reagan did it. Bush did it. So, who joins Notsoyoung in the sentiment of calling people "_illegal aliens?_" The Hispanics call the guy the "Deporter in Chief." He would be Barack Obama. The right wants to keep beating the drum, calling people "illegal aliens" when they cannot crack Title 18 of the U.S. Code open (the title that defines crimes) and find ANY crime that calls anybody an "i_llegal alien_."

Notsoyoung, I do not need a federal government that wants to help me protect me from myself. Nobody needs to rely on disproven fallacies and the biggest one you bring to the table is that foreigners cost more than they produce. If that were true, they would not be here. If you want a thread about the foreigners, I dare you to start one. If not, thank you in advance for not hijacking a perfectly productive thread for this nonsensical bullshit about crimes that don't exist... which give a pretext for creating the POLICE STATE.


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## inceptor

Yup, Bush set up offices, funded by Republicans, in all countries. Their sole purpose is to find out who will vote Democrat, sign them up for food stamps then sneak them across the border. The Republicans figure if they can get most of the population on welfare, they can just socialize the country. With most of the country on welfare, they can control all the banks and the money. Of course few will have money because they aren't working but that's beside the point.


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## Notsoyoung

The Resister said:


> Notsoyoung, you've wanted to make this thread about a people you call _"illegals_." You and your ilk don't have the intestinal fortitude to start a thread about the topic AND I would challenge you to start one on a board that did not delete immigration threads. Just for chits and giggles:
> 
> You have a POLICE STATE primarily because it was allowed under the guise of fighting "_illegal immigration_." Well sir, *NO SUCH CRIME AS "ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION" EXISTS!* It is not a crime to come here and it's not a crime to be here without the human registration papers. It's all civil law.
> 
> "_If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy_."
> ― James Madison
> 
> If everybody will recall, it was the REPUBLICANS that wanted to give citizenship to those without papers. Reagan did it. Bush did it. So, who joins Notsoyoung in the sentiment of calling people "_illegal aliens?_" The Hispanics call the guy the "Deporter in Chief." He would be Barack Obama. The right wants to keep beating the drum, calling people "illegal aliens" when they cannot crack Title 18 of the U.S. Code open (the title that defines crimes) and find ANY crime that calls anybody an "i_llegal alien_."
> 
> Notsoyoung, I do not need a federal government that wants to help me protect me from myself. Nobody needs to rely on disproven fallacies and the biggest one you bring to the table is that foreigners cost more than they produce. If that were true, they would not be here. If you want a thread about the foreigners, I dare you to start one. If not, thank you in advance for not hijacking a perfectly productive thread for this nonsensical bullshit about crimes that don't exist... which give a pretext for creating the POLICE STATE.


LMFAO - You are hilarious and oooohhhhhh sooooo predictable. "There's no such thing as illegal aliens"..... So why are they handcuffed and escorted around by armed guards? This constant and idiotic claim that securing our borders makes our country a police state. What a joke.

Some of the claims you have made:

1. You reported some cops breaking the law and when you turned them in, and they tried to kill you.

2. The Atlantic Constitution had an article on you saying that you were "not a threat to the community". (A strange way of describing you). How about giving a date of the article so that we can look it up for ourselves?

3. Now you are claiming that the police are giving you hard time because of things that you posted on this forum. Hmmmmmm.


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## Smokin04

The Resister said:


> Notsoyoung, you've wanted to make this thread about a people you call _"illegals_." You and your ilk don't have the intestinal fortitude to start a thread about the topic AND I would challenge you to start one on a board that did not delete immigration threads. Just for chits and giggles:
> 
> You have a POLICE STATE primarily because it was allowed under the guise of fighting "_illegal immigration_." Well sir, *NO SUCH CRIME AS "ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION" EXISTS!* It is not a crime to come here and it's not a crime to be here without the human registration papers. It's all civil law.
> 
> "_If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy_."
> ― James Madison
> 
> If everybody will recall, it was the REPUBLICANS that wanted to give citizenship to those without papers. Reagan did it. Bush did it. So, who joins Notsoyoung in the sentiment of calling people "_illegal aliens?_" The Hispanics call the guy the "Deporter in Chief." He would be Barack Obama. The right wants to keep beating the drum, calling people "illegal aliens" when they cannot crack Title 18 of the U.S. Code open (the title that defines crimes) and find ANY crime that calls anybody an "i_llegal alien_."
> 
> Notsoyoung, I do not need a federal government that wants to help me protect me from myself. Nobody needs to rely on disproven fallacies and the biggest one you bring to the table is that foreigners cost more than they produce. If that were true, they would not be here. If you want a thread about the foreigners, I dare you to start one. If not, thank you in advance for not hijacking a perfectly productive thread for this nonsensical bullshit about crimes that don't exist... which give a pretext for creating the POLICE STATE.


Here is what makes it an enforcable law with both CIVIL AND CRIMINAL provisions:

Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 which was then amended in 1965 (Drafted by Kennedy, signed by LBJ):
Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which prompted the drafting of all 15 chapters of Title 8 of the U.S.C which makes them enforcable. Maybe focus on reading Chapters 3, 6, 11, 12, and 13.
Title 8 of the United States Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can read all the bills/legislative pieces online. The 1952 act is 163 pages. The amendments are equally lenghty. But, since I don't really have time, nor do I care to argue on why and how you're wrong...I'll leave the reading and researching part to you. Cheers.


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## Inor

Oh look, a one-legged IHOP waitress riding a turtle!


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## Charles Martel

Inor said:


> Oh look, a one-legged IHOP waitress riding a turtle!


Ha! LMAO!


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## The Resister

Smokin04 said:


> Here is what makes it an enforcable law with both CIVIL AND CRIMINAL provisions:
> 
> Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 which was then amended in 1965 (Drafted by Kennedy, signed by LBJ):
> Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Which prompted the drafting of all 15 chapters of Title 8 of the U.S.C which makes them enforcable. Maybe focus on reading Chapters 3, 6, 11, 12, and 13.
> Title 8 of the United States Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You can read all the bills/legislative pieces online. The 1952 act is 163 pages. The amendments are equally lenghty. But, since I don't really have time, nor do I care to argue on why and how you're wrong...I'll leave the reading and researching part to you. Cheers.


I have commented on this several times on this board. When your side is confronted with the truth, the moderators see fit to delete the thread. Congratulations. You have now turned a POLICE STATE thread into an immigration thread. Of course, I'll take the heat for it, but here goes:

*Title 8 of the United States Code IS NOT A CRIMINAL CODE*. The criminal laws of the United States are in Title EIGHTEEN. Title 8 never even attempts to challenge that fact. For example, Title 8 USC 1325 concerns itself with the *IMPROPER* entry of foreigners into the U.S. Not once does that statute claim to be criminal. If a foreigner is caught entering improperly they can be charged a *CIVIL* fine according to the statute. If the offender lies to authorities, tries to elude them, uses false papers, etc, then they can be charged with a *crime UNDER TITLE EIGHTEEN*. They cannot be charged with a crime for *improper* entry in a criminal court because *improper* acts are not unlawful NOR illegal. Here AGAIN is the* RULING by the highest immigration official in the United States*:

"_Aliens in removal proceedings have no right to counsel, including Government-appointed counsel, under the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution because the Sixth Amendment applies only to criminal proceedings and removal proceedings are civil in nature_." Matter of Enrique Salas COMPEAN 24 I&N Dec. 710 (A.G. 2009)

http://www.justice.gov/eoir/vll/intdec/vol24/3632.pdf

Chris Christie, a man who used to represent the government in these very kinds of cases (you know, the lard ass running for President as a Republican) had this to say:

"..."_Illegal presence" as the offense is called {by laymen}, is not a violation of the U.S. criminal code. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without authorization from immigration authorities. It is, however, a violation of civil immigration laws, for which the federal government can impose civil penalties, namely deportation.

Q: But he was later asked a hypothetical question about someone sneaking across the border and said that's not a crime either. Is that true, too?

A: No. "Improper entry by an alien" as it is called, is a violation of Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code punishable by a fine of between $50 and $250 and/or a maximum of six months in jail"_.

Christie clarifies: 'Illegal' immigrants are in civil violation | NJ.com

Another Republican who ran for U.S. President as a Republican, Rudy Giuliani had this to say:

"_It's not a crime," Giuliani said Friday. "I know that's very hard for people to understand, but it's not a federal crime. ...I was U.S. attorney in the Southern district of New York," he said. "So believe me, I know this. In fact, when you throw an immigrant out of the country, it's not a criminal proceeding. It's a civil proceeding._"

Giuliani: Illegal Immigration No Crime

Finally, the last time the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security weighed in on the question, the *HEAD of Homeland (IN) Security* stated:

"_And yes, when we find illegal workers, yes, appropriate action, some of which is criminal, most of that is civil, because crossing the border is not a crime per se_.."

DHS Janet Napolitano claims illegal immigration "is not a crime" - Norfolk Crime | Examiner.com

If the top voices for the government (those who enforce the law and make the decisions) aren't enough to convince you, perhaps you can tell us WHY the top Tea Party representative in Congress, Rep. James Sensenbrenner, attempted to have the bill changed FROM improper TO unlawful. Why did he do it if it were already a crime? Why change the wording of the law if it already means illegal, and consequently, a crime? It's because *there is no such law as illegal immigration*.

Statutes are not worth a rat's ass until they have been interpreted. Those who have the final say have interpreted them. I'm not arguing you over philosophy any longer. I'm telling you what the ****ing law is... whether you agree with it or not.


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## Montana Rancher

Beach Kowboy said:


> I just came across this and thought it was pretty ****ed up. A college professor/student notices a map is wrong. She corrects it and someone calls the police. Sure, she was wrong to do it. But call the ****ing cops?! The cop is a TOTAL douche bag fat boy that must have something to prove. He had an attitude from the very beginning. What I don't understand is why she had to go to the station for a citation. Unless they wanted to book her to get her information in the system. Cops like these are the ones that will fire on you no questions asked when the time comes. Here is the link and video..
> 
> College Sends Police to Arrest Its Employee After She Marked on Wall Map to Help Students ? Cop?s Lapel Camera Caught the Whole Thing | Video | TheBlaze.com


My biggest shock was that a college professor noticed a map was wrong!?

Who is she?

Doesn't she realize that in an educational system the truth is subject to the force of law?

I'm just saying.


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## paraquack

Smokin04 said:


> Well thanks for the statement, but no...
> Very very very few cops are douches...and they usually get found out and dealt with pretty quick. People who label cops have no empathy, therefore I will show little in return.


While I have relatives who are LEO, and therefore will not paint all LEOs with the brush of "oppressors", they are enforcers and sometimes they get carried away in how they enforce a law. Sometimes they are not found out as quickly as you think. Especially in large cities where it seems that LEOs are will to cover one anthers butts, just in case they need their butt covered some day. I saw this type of thugery in Chicago* way too often*. So I ask you the question, was it necessary to manhandle the woman in the story. If she was to receive a citation, give it to her. I see this as a cop believing she was in "contempt of COP" and she was being punished for her contempt of cop. I hope you are a good LEO and the men/women who stand beside you. I don't see any threat to the cop's safety, just their ego. So is there any chance you see what they did as necessary? If so, I hope I never do anything wrong in your jurisdiction.


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## oldmurph58

Kinda just discovered you tube again. I go there for prepper videos, but typed in police misconduct and I could be here for days, there are so many. The best ones are when cops, pull guns, on fellow cops. Instantly they think what they do themseves, is terribly wrong. Nothin like lookin down another cops gun to make them decide its wrong. sorry i gotta love it and had to comment. The shoes on another foot, dang, they get irate.


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## James m

Yea someone just went down across the street lol. Three cop cars. As I was walking by I heard three guns and a crossbow. Although its not illegal to have but if you start trouble it only goes against you. 
Literally five minutes ago. 
I was living in a bad neighborhood a while back. Some police with an ar style and the bigger body armor went to get some guy. They left the car down the block and walked the rest of the way


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## James m

Drug bust last night. Didn't hear a thing.


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## oldmurph58

I've done it too, even slept with artillery in the background


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