# What will you do when they come to collect your firearms?



## Elia Cid

IMO it's not a matter if but when ...Will you resist or just give them over? ...

I for one will resist ....


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## SOCOM42

I won't be here


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## whoppo

If they want my 40 year old Savage shotgun, they can have it... it's all I've got left and it hurts my delicate shoulder to shoot it.


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## rice paddy daddy

I'm not worried about it, frankly.


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## joec

I'm not worried either since they can only account for a small percentage of them. Besides the number of armed US citizens is a larger army than China, Russia, Europe and the USA combined. This in a country that can't cross reference birth and death certificates much less voter rolls.


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## badey

Well, I lost all my guns in a freak boating accident, so I don't have to worry about it anymore... :wink:


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## Verteidiger

Ever wonder - why do post hole diggers have such short handles, anyway?


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## Lucky Jim

Are they allowed to take your guns in America?

_"..the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed......The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against *unreasonable searches and seizures*, shall not be violated"- US Constitution

"A free people ought to be armed" ― George Washington

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American peoples liberty teeth....The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good." ― George Washington

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."- George Washington

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."- John Adams

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."- Richard Henry Lee

"The right of self defense is the first law of nature"- St. George Tucker_

*Minute Man statue*


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## C5GUY

rice paddy daddy said:


> I'm not worried about it, frankly.


I agree 100%


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## Lucky Jim

The only possible excuse they might have for taking a citizen's guns is if a judge considers him not fit to have them because he's a psycho or whatever.
They might use this quote against him on the grounds that he's NOT a "peaceable citizen"-
_"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are *peaceable citizens *from keeping their own arms."- Samuel Adams_


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## Elia Cid

I'll, rephrase the question, simply state if you will turn them over or not ? 

Thanks


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## badey

Elia Cid said:


> I'll, rephrase the question, simply state if you will turn them over or not ?
> 
> Thanks


I'm not going to answer for myself, but I think some Americans will turn over the contents of their magazines at super-sonic speeds before they turn over their guns.


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## Pir8fan

Mine all fell overboard when my kayak turned over in the lake.


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## Pir8fan

rice paddy daddy said:


> I'm not worried about it, frankly.


They tried it in New Orleans after Katrina and seized quite a few guns. Virtually none of them were returned.


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## joec

Elia Cid said:


> I'll, rephrase the question, simply state if you will turn them over or not ?
> 
> Thanks


NO in a word it won't happen regardless. Besides I've carried guns in countries that would put you to death for carrying a gun. I'm still hear so this country hardly is scary in that respect.


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## dsdmmat

Lucky Jim said:


> The only possible excuse they might have for taking a citizen's guns is if a judge considers him not fit to have them because he's a psycho or whatever.
> They might use this quote against him on the grounds that he's NOT a "peaceable citizen"-
> _"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are *peaceable citizens *from keeping their own arms."- Samuel Adams_


The expansion of the classes of citizen being determined unworthy of owning firearms is how the govt will disarm the population slowly, first the felons, then the misdemeanor, next the unstable, next the speeders, then the J walkers, then the......


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## Alpha-17

badey said:


> Well, I lost all my guns in a freak boating accident, so I don't have to worry about it anymore... :wink:


Me too. Don't you hate it when that happens?

To answer the question, no, I will not turn them over.


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## WoadWarrior

They can only take your weapons if they know you have them.... like if you are dumb enough to enter a forum that is most likely already branded as "extremist" and then list every gun you own. Hint Hint. I know some of you will publicly respond with "Let 'em come" and I wish you the best. But... part of prepping is being low key... so you can improve your chances of survival. The idea is to minimize your problems and get away... not talk tough and get your gear seized, get arrested, or get shot.

I'm sure there are many on here that have their "throw away guns" that they would keep out in the open for the govt to seize so they can look like good little citizens... and that is actually smart in my opinion. 

So... it's better to make statements like this: "Personally... I only own a single shot .22 and a single shot shotgun. The rest of my guns were stolen during my last move but I didn't report it because I now believe private citizens don't need them."

than this: "I own 12 AR-15s, 2 SKSs, 16 shotguns, have 9 pistols, etc and over 40,000 rounds. I'd love to see the govt try and take 'em." If things get bad... you can bet your ass they will come and take them.

Bottom line: it's your decision how you choose to prep and what risks you are willing to take. But remember this, it's unrealistic to think the govt doesn't know who you are because you have some weird username on this forum and don't post where you live.


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## Alpha-17

WoadWarrior said:


> They can only take your weapons if they know you have them.... like if you are dumb enough to enter a forum that is most likely already branded as "extremist" and then list every gun you own. Hint Hint. I know some of you will publicly respond with "Let 'em come" and I wish you the best. But... part of prepping is being low key... so you can improve your chances of survival. The idea is to minimize your problems and get away... not talk tough and get your gear seized, get arrested, or get shot.
> 
> I'm sure there are many on here that have their "throw away guns" that they would keep out in the open for the govt to seize so they can look like good little citizens... and that is actually smart in my opinion.
> 
> So... it's better to make statements like this: "Personally... I only own a single shot .22 and a single shot shotgun. The rest of my guns were stolen during my last move but I didn't report it because I now believe private citizens don't need them."
> 
> than this: "I own 12 AR-15s, 2 SKSs, 16 shotguns, have 9 pistols, etc and over 40,000 rounds. I'd love to see the govt try and take 'em." If things get bad... you can bet your ass they will come and take them.
> 
> Bottom line: it's your decision how you choose to prep and what risks you are willing to take. But remember this, it's unrealistic to think the govt doesn't know who you are because you have some weird username on this forum and don't post where you live.


If they're really going to track people down based on forum usage (highly probable), more than likely they're not going to bother going off what you've said. You'll just be a target of opportunity to take down because you've already shown an independent/preparedness streak, and therefore can be considered a threat.


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## joec

WoadWarrior said:


> They can only take your weapons if they know you have them.... like if you are dumb enough to enter a forum that is most likely already branded as "extremist" and then list every gun you own. Hint Hint. I know some of you will publicly respond with "Let 'em come" and I wish you the best. But... part of prepping is being low key... so you can improve your chances of survival. The idea is to minimize your problems and get away... not talk tough and get your gear seized, get arrested, or get shot.
> 
> I'm sure there are many on here that have their "throw away guns" that they would keep out in the open for the govt to seize so they can look like good little citizens... and that is actually smart in my opinion.
> 
> So... it's better to make statements like this: "Personally... I only own a single shot .22 and a single shot shotgun. The rest of my guns were stolen during my last move but I didn't report it because I now believe private citizens don't need them."
> 
> than this: "I own 12 AR-15s, 2 SKSs, 16 shotguns, have 9 pistols, etc and over 40,000 rounds. I'd love to see the govt try and take 'em." If things get bad... you can bet your ass they will come and take them.
> 
> Bottom line: it's your decision how you choose to prep and what risks you are willing to take. But remember this, it's unrealistic to think the govt doesn't know who you are because you have some weird username on this forum and don't post where you live.


Do you honestly believe the current government has the means, man power or electronic eaves dropping capability to monitor every word posted in this or any forum really? First off their aren't enough people working for the government to even monitor every word posted, electronic monitoring only works on key words most of which wouldn't even be in a group like this and if so may be checked out for content. The US government as mighty as they are isn't that good either. As for guns the guesstimate that only one in three go though legal channels in the sale off. Even based on the number of guns made in the US they can probably only account for a third of those sold.


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## WoadWarrior

Alpha... you've got to have something for the mindless govt drones to do... and that is to scan forums and build profiles on us extremists. I find it amazing that many will join this forum with names like JJones... and say they live in City X... and immediately list their weapons. It's easy to do an internet search for a J Jones in City X and find them. Now, the gov't has an address to associate with it... and can easily get a squad of goons to show up at that house while "J" is at work and browbeat Mrs Jones into showing them her husbands stash... seizing anything made illegal months or years after he made the original post... and then showing up at Mr. Jones' work to arrest him and embarrass him in front of his co-workers. And... they don't even need a search warrant to scan his IP address to do it. He volunteered it all to the govt on a public forum making a house search warrant especially easy.

Yes... it's a made up scenario but that doesn't mean it's not possible.


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## dsdmmat

It is easier to make citizens unworthy to possess firearms by using Obama care to identify people that are "depressed or angry" then the next time they try to buy a gun they are denied.


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## Verteidiger

Any ban on so-called assault weapons or military-type weapons will be on future purchases and transfers, in my opinion. That is what the proposed new AWB legislation is aimed at.

Even under a declaration of martial law, it is unlikely the governments in the U.S. will attempt to confiscate lawfully obtained weapons owned by peaceable citizens. The guns taken during Katrina were confiscated by out-of-state police officers from Northern states that thought it was permissible to confiscate weapons, at a time when looters and crime gangs bent on cleaning out the jewelry, pawn and liquor stores were shooting at law enforcement wherever they appeared. Besides, as preppers, we would have been long gone as Katrina approached, right?


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## vandelescrow

If the government did try to force you to turn in your guns. I would think I am not required to turn in the entire gun. Only the part with the serial number or needing an FFL to transfer is traceable. I.E. in the case of an AR-15, only the lower receiver but not including the trigger assembly, butt stock etc.

If you have to give them up, why give the government a functional gun? They will probably melt them down but, just saying. 

Consider all the different models/types of weapons you have and where that serial numbered part is, with some engineering you would probably still be left with enough parts to make a functional gun. Gangs in the projects of Chicago made guns using just 3 sheets of steel and a rubber band.

Besides, gun control will never work because the guns will only be taken from law abiding citizens. Criminals aren't supposed to have them but they do. No matter what the government does, that will never change.


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## jmh033089

I will tell them to come back with body bags to make my job easier.....


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## Rocky

What guns? I lost mine in a boating accident. :mrgreen:


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## alanvt

Sold mine to pay the Taxes the assholes keep raising, is what I would say!

Alan


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## badey

joec said:


> Do you honestly believe the current government has the means, man power or electronic eaves dropping capability to monitor every word posted in this or any forum really? First off their aren't enough people working for the government to even monitor every word posted, electronic monitoring only works on key words most of which wouldn't even be in a group like this and if so may be checked out for content. The US government as mighty as they are isn't that good either. As for guns the guesstimate that only one in three go though legal channels in the sale off. Even based on the number of guns made in the US they can probably only account for a third of those sold.


Google "fusion centers." Think it is some tinfoil hat conspiracy? Then search for it on the DHS website. They tell you about them on their own site. They collect data posted online to look for people who might be threats to national security... like people who volunteered to help the Ron Paul campaign (no, I am not a Ron Paul fan; I've never even voted for him, this was just a true example of criteria that got someone put on a watch list at a fusion center).


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## shotlady

god bless rental guns,


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## Denton

I own mine. Mine were bought at gun stores. Proper checking was accomplished. They know what I have, and none have been lost in any accident or burglary. 
The 2nd amendment to the constitution was so that the individual would have the ability to resist tyranny. As a collective, if armed, we have the ability to determine when enough is enough and to push the monster back inside the cage the founding fathers constructed for us. We should never have allowed the federal government outside the confines of the constitution. It's going to be difficult to restrict it, once again. As it gets bolder and we get more timid, there will come a day when the armed citizen is the enemy of the state.

Be timid, play dead if you wish. You will be enslaved, just the same.


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## Alpha-17

WoadWarrior said:


> Alpha... you've got to have something for the mindless govt drones to do... and that is to scan forums and build profiles on us extremists. I find it amazing that many will join this forum with names like JJones... and say they live in City X... and immediately list their weapons. It's easy to do an internet search for a J Jones in City X and find them. Now, the gov't has an address to associate with it... and can easily get a squad of goons to show up at that house while "J" is at work and browbeat Mrs Jones into showing them her husbands stash... seizing anything made illegal months or years after he made the original post... and then showing up at Mr. Jones' work to arrest him and embarrass him in front of his co-workers. And... they don't even need a search warrant to scan his IP address to do it. He volunteered it all to the govt on a public forum making a house search warrant especially easy.
> 
> Yes... it's a made up scenario but that doesn't mean it's not possible.


See, Uncle Sam already knows where I live, has at least a few lists of what guns I own, and if they wanted to arrest me, they know right where to find me. One of the less cool aspects of my job. That said, the government is a ridiculously inefficient organization. If they really want to nail people for posting stuff online, they'll go after everybody who's IP address links them to this place rather than read the information concerning guns, stockpiles, etc. Why use a scalpel when a chainsaw is cheaper and more or less gets the same job done, eh?


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## Seneca

I'm not that worried about it...


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## The Punisher

Seneca said:


> I'm not that worried about it...


Same here...


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## C5GUY

The Punisher said:


> Same here...


Make that three.


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## Fuzzee

If they make that mistake an go that far the country will be burning around them and their going to need to keep their heads down. If they can. If for some crazy reason they did show up at my door and want my guns where I didn't have any warning ahead of time I'd politely tell them they made a mistake. The rest you can use your imagination for as it's not nice to ask a freedom loving, well trained, well armed, ex-paratrooper for his guns.



:wink:


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## GRNDHOG

I think we should start a new forum. Boatingaccidentpreppers.net. 

Seems like it'll help out a few people around here!


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## pharmer14

Guns themselves will be too difficult of a target. If you see anything done, it will be through ammunition before guns themselves. I do plan to buy an assault rifle before the ban goes back up though.


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## Rocky

The trick is not to have any more than absolutely needed at your home to begin with. Have most of you stuff stashed elsewhere, preferably in several different locations. The average home is NOT very defensible when it comes to withstanding an organised ( i.e. S.W.A.T., military ) assault. If you answer a knock on the door and find yourself more or less surrounded you will have a limited number of options.

A. Charge forth with guns a'blazing, maybe (if you are lucky) hitting two or three of the enemy before they open up on you AND anyone else in the house (Wife and kids?) thus ending your usefulness as a member of "The Resistance" right then and there, as well as maybe getting your family killed and ALL of your weapons confiscated.

B. Meekly turn over an inexpensive Mossberg 500 and generic handgun, explaining that all your other firearms were sold, stolen, lost-in-a-boating-accident, etc. Then, once the gestapo has left to do their duty elsewhere, go to one of your stashes, arm yourself appropriately, plan your moves wisely, and then spend the rest of the war sniping the hell out of them whenever possible. 

Last stands may simply ooze glory but hit and run racks up a body count.

Just my $0.02 ;-)


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## Lattice

pharmer14 said:


> Guns themselves will be too difficult of a target. If you see anything done, it will be through ammunition before guns themselves. I do plan to buy an assault rifle before the ban goes back up though.


I think you mean the fake term "assault weapon".

Sorry I'm kinda anal about that.


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## joec

Lattice said:


> I think you mean the fake term "assault weapon".
> 
> Sorry I'm kinda anal about that.


I am also anal about that term. They are nothing more than a semi auto rifle like a number of hunting guns and target pistols. I might also add many have no where near the range, accuracy or power of many hunting rifles. They simply look like a military gun but have as much in common as a pellet gun does to a hunting rifle.


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## Lattice

joec said:


> I am also anal about that term. They are nothing more than a semi auto rifle like a number of hunting guns and target pistols. I might also add many have no where near the range, accuracy or power of many hunting rifles. They simply look like a military gun but have as much in common as a pellet gun does to a hunting rifle.


Exactly!

Remember. Assault rifle. A select fire rifle that fires an intermediately powered round, IE one between that of a pistol caliber and a full powered round.

Assault weapon, the fake term thought up by liberals to describe scary looking guns.


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## Not Crazy Yet

I don't currently own any (I'm working on changing that) but if I did, I can assure you that I wouldn't be home when they came to take them. I'd be long gone and would be in my bug out location getting ready to watch the country collapse.


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## shadownmss

Mine will be reported stolen


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## The Punisher

GRNDHOG said:


> I think we should *start a new forum. Boatingaccidentpreppers.net. *
> 
> Seems like it'll help out a few people around here!


No. I'm pretty sure some of the people around here know's what it means. The saying was once funny.....

While some of us may joke from time to time about this, you just posted on the internet (which makes it permanent - that means forever accessible to the world) that may be construed by a jury of your peers to indicate the possibility of premeditated action. I doubt such an excuse would result in an "OK, have a nice day". They are not stupid.

Like I said before, I'm not worried about it....


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## Wolvee

If you believe this could happen, why in the world would you post on a public forum what you'll do in defiance against the Government? Doesn't make sense to me.


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## nadja

They wouldn't dare take my sling shot would they ? It is semi auto though if you can load it fast enough.


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## vandelescrow

nadja said:


> They wouldn't dare take my sling shot would they ? It is semi auto though if you can load it fast enough.


I'd say it is semi auto. Every pull of the trigger it fires, right?:mrgreen:


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## Fuzzee

Wolvee said:


> If you believe this could happen, why in the world would you post on a public forum what you'll do in defiance against the Government? Doesn't make sense to me.


It's not worth worry about and matters little whether anyone talks about defending themselves against tyranny. We're suppose to be a free country with freedom of speech. I remember hearing that somewhere. When/If they come they'll come in force regardless and be treating even an old woman with an 80 year old revolver that doesn't even work like she's on the FBI's top ten list. The country has gotten pretty bad with how the government treats it's citizens at times. That's local, state and federal. They should know people will only stand for so much. It might put some sense in their heads. I doubt it though.


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## GRNDHOG

The Punisher said:


> No. I'm pretty sure some of the people around here know's what it means. The saying was once funny.....
> 
> While some of us may joke from time to time about this, you just posted on the internet (which makes it permanent - that means forever accessible to the world) that may be construed by a jury of your peers to indicate the possibility of premeditated action. I doubt such an excuse would result in an "OK, have a nice day". They are not stupid.
> 
> Like I said before, I'm not worried about it....


It was just a joke...like all of the boating accident comments.


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## shotlady

its an old school joke. coming for my stuff wouldnt be. i read today i dont know where that theyd do a soft shut down first... ammo
none the less my stuff is legal and registered and insured. i did have a security break in nv when our hotel room was entered by staff while i took my son out for super shopping and his first time at the casino. i wasnt happy and still havent gotten a call back from the manager regarding this.


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## kyletx1911a1

Thats just wrong never should that have hapened( but in retrospect) its the law
Abiding people that they will come after first


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## Elia Cid

I'm writing of these two episodes that I personally witnessed that left me helpless ,troubled ,outraged but most of all fearful of what was to come and how I would be helpless to counter it in the future ...

I was born and raised in the Gestapo State New York, in New York City I still have friends and family living there that I love very much and it goes without saying how much I care for most of the people of my great city.. 
That being said the state governing system , city fathers and Fed's have a death grip on this city with a police force that's comparable to some standing third world armies and with the help of state and Fed's can bring to bear a police / paramilitary force equaled to some European nations even without the help or intervention of the reserves or regular army ... 

The right of the Sate to restrict control and own your firearms :

Example : 
NYS/NYC feels once you become a resident of that state or city or even travel through it, all firearms are automatically under their jurisdiction , they can regulate , confiscate in fact are de facto owners of your firearms and can do as they like with your firearms as you are basically only housing or leasing their firearms by their grace that they can withdraw at anytime they so desire ... So by moving into these Gestapo states you are not only given up your second armament rights you are for all intent and purposes making them owners of your firearms as well ...

Episode one: 
This incidence occurred prior to 9/11...

My father-in-law god rest his soul lived in Brooklyn NYC legally owned a old cheap shotgun no one knew when or if it was ever fired behind, he use to hid it under the bed unloaded.. A few months after his passing , a knock at the door my mother-in-law living alone now in her 80's was push aside as she did not open the fast enough for them , she was scared by seeing NYC Police and some that appeared to be ATF or SWAT officers dressed in black, she could not tell forcing their way in , not asking for but demanding for my Father-in-laws old legally registered shotgun...

They said their records showed that he had a shotgun registered and they were not going to leave without it , if she did not know where it was they would search for it , she told them it was under the bed they took it not even sure if they gave her a recipe , on the way out told her that it was now the property of the city, till she filed the appropriate papers and permits if she wanted back... 

We had to call a Dr. for her she was so stressed by their visit (armed intrusion), a few years later she passed away .the shotgun disappeared , as NYC property never to be seen again ...

Please note this belligerent attitude was present prior to 9/11 and more so after the passing of the Patriot Act has just in embolden and empowered them that much more...


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## Piratesailor

They may try a UK or OZ type confiscation but with the numbers here it would be tough. I think it will be generational and they will start slow with "bans" on certain guns. Then they will ban or highly tax certain ammunition. As our generation dies off the next generation will be desensitized to gun control and will follow along. The government will then offer voluntary confiscation while broadening the ban to all guns of any type. In the end, it will be slow and final and not effect us but our grandchildren.


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## Piratesailor

And all this will happen if WE LET IT by voting for our continued ruling class in the local, state and federal government.


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## Rocky

The Feds already know pretty much everything about the average citizen. You, me, everyone. All we can do is prepare for the worse while trying to talk some sense into our representatives in D.C.. ( Yeah, I know. But we have to try.)

The only thing that has kept them from trying to confiscate our arms already is that, at the present, they have more important things on their agenda. They have not yet solidified their position to the extent that they are confident of winning such a gambit.

When they feel that they have, they will move. Whether it be an outright gun-grab or trying to tax us out of ammo or something else.

Keep writing and emailing your reps but be prepared for the worse.

Just my unhappy $0.02


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## vandelescrow

> As our generation dies off the next generation will be desensitized to gun control and will follow along.


 it is surprising how many people show up at the gun range I belong to uninformed. Thinking this or that is illegal when in fact all you need is the right permit/tax stamp.

Personally, some of the things you need a stamp for is stupid. I.E. The government is afraid an SBR (Short Barrel Rifle) is to easily concealable so you need a special form, notify the ATF when it crosses a state line etc, but my hand gun that can fit in my arm pit has none of that restriction.


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## Medelwr

Think society will last long enough for them to get their hands on your guns?


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## inceptor

Voluntary confiscation has been going on for years in some major cities. Chicago, Seattle, Newark and other places have been offering gift cards, cash, gas cards, etc. for those turning in guns. All of these were reasonably successful. Enough so that they have done this more than once. I remember reading somewhere that they were even paying people to turn in their neighbors. 

The feds will start with the ban again this time and probably extend this to private sales also. Not far behind will be the regulation of ammo. A program will be established nationwide similar to crimestoppers where you can anomalously turn in your neighbors for cash. 

The problem with stashing your stuff is that they now have the ability to scan your house from the street to see what or who is inside. Gonna have to get creative.


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## vandelescrow

inceptor said:


> I remember reading somewhere that they were even paying people to turn in their neighbors.


 I heard this also but it was in East Germany when the Russians took over. People were barring them in there back yard and neighbors would turn them in.


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## inceptor

vandelescrow said:


> I heard this also but it was in East Germany when the Russians took over. People were barring them in there back yard and neighbors would turn them in.


Gotta love google. This is the left's way of seeing things.

Right-Wing Media Fearmonger About Newark Gun Control Program | Blog | Media Matters for America

It actually had to do with illegal guns. Of course your neighbors know if you legally own that weapon, right???? ;-)


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## pharmer14

I think one thing that is overlooked in this discussion is the military. Undoubtedly they would be the people collecting the guns. I just don't see the military allowing the government to enact a complete ban and quietly going along with it. My guess is that you would see at the very least a great deal of military fracturing and a resistance group forming with overthrow in mind.


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## Lattice

pharmer14 said:


> I think one thing that is overlooked in this discussion is the military. Undoubtedly they would be the people collecting the guns. I just don't see the military allowing the government to enact a complete ban and quietly going along with it. My guess is that you would see at the very least a great deal of military fracturing and a resistance group forming with overthrow in mind.


Back in the 80s several battalions of Marines were polled on this very question. 80% said they would not help with confiscation, and would not fire on civilians that took up arms to defend against it.


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## bbqbob

I for one am not worried about it. At the national level in the Senate, House and Presidential office it is political suicide to be in favor of any draconian gun laws. The old AWB was BS and a failure and the politicians that were for it paid a hefty price for supporting it. Howard Dean steered the Democrats away from the issue and in reality there's only a handful of Senators or Representatives that are fervently anti gun. Dianne Feinstein is one of them and she is that way because she witnessed the assassination of her friends Mayor George Moscone and supervisor Harvey Milk. She continues to introduce legislation but it never goes anywhere.
Like I said of the Washington politicians, few anti-gun and not many more are "gun nuts" with most just not really caring one way or another. President Obama falls into the latter camp, not caring. He has received an F from the NRA and ironically he has also received an F from the Brady Campaign.


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## alanvt

Our current Governor took the news cameras out with him deer hunting this year.


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## WoadWarrior

Lattice said:


> Back in the 80s several battalions of Marines were polled on this very question. 80% said they would not help with confiscation, and would not fire on civilians that took up arms to defend against it.


Lattice... the military of the 80's and the military of today are two different entities. It used to be that you couldn't find someone in the military who would admit to being a liberal. Now... they are everywhere. And... the current management of the military (i.e., the policies that are being implemented) just proves that point. I would expect some resistance if the military were used against our citizens... but not complete resistance. The only thing protecting us right now is the people we elect.

A quick background:

The Posse Comitatus Act (federal law - 18 U.S.C. § 1385) of 1878, in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807, limited the powers of local governments and law enforcement agencies in using the military to enforce laws. Contrary to popular belief, this Act does not prohibit members of the military from enforcing law or acting with police powers; it simply requires that the authority to do so must exist within the Constitution or within an Act of Congress (i.e., Congress can authorize the use of the military against US citizens). In 2006, at the request of President Bush, Congress revised federal law (i.e., the Insurrection Act) so that U.S. armed forces could restore public order and enforce laws in the aftermath of a natural disaster, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition, but it was repealed in it's entirety in 2008).

However, this year (2012), President Obama signed the 2012 Defense Authorization Act into law. Section 1031, clause "b", article 2 defines a 'covered person', i.e., someone possibly subject to martial law, as the following: "A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces."

"Associated forces" could be anyone the govt declares is conducting "terrorist acts" or "directly supporting". Remember, it was just a year or two ago that DHS declared that military veterans were potential extremists because of their training and political views. In the military, we take an oath to defend the CONSTITUTION against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The problem for most US citizens, is that our definition of a domestic enemy of the Constitution could be our own government... and that, ladies and gentlemen, puts us at odds with our government and could make us "associated forces engaging in hostilities against the US" in their eyes.


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## Lattice

I spent a bit of time in the Corps, as did my late husband. The sentiment relayed earlier appears to remain. Granted I was in a good while ago. But have kept in touch with a lot of people we served with. While there does seem to be some more vocal liberals in the military, I would say it is in regards to things other than typical liberal agenda.


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## Denton

When it comes down to it, it is too late to worry about it when the conversation comes down to what an individual will do when the government comes for the guns.

We should have been thinking about this before the other amendments were trampled.


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## Irish

What guns? Aby guns I had have been sold when my baby was born and I can give anyone the arms list links if they do not believe


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## ColoradoChris

They won't get them.... I have it all practiced.... "Officer... Officer... they stole all my guns"


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## Alpha-17

WoadWarrior said:


> Lattice... the military of the 80's and the military of today are two different entities. It used to be that you couldn't find someone in the military who would admit to being a liberal. Now... they are everywhere. And... the current management of the military (i.e., the policies that are being implemented) just proves that point. I would expect some resistance if the military were used against our citizens... but not complete resistance. The only thing protecting us right now is the people we elect.


I'm active duty, and I can attest to this. While there are politically astute individuals, or just good old fashion, gun toting ********, the majority don't care either way at best, or would blindly follow orders at worst. Couple weeks ago, when the Secession petitions got started, the subject became a topic of discussion. Sadly, a people said something along the lines of "Yeah, I hope they try; I'd love to be in on the invasion of Texas". Granted, I am in a Infantry/Combat Arms unit, and we're typically geared to shoot first and ask questions later, but really? Beyond this, the people I'm talking about are lower enlisted. Over the last few years, I've seen a dramatic shift in Army policy, and the way things are run, with a very much "leftward" lean. The policies coming into effect, and the general direction the Army is headed is one of the reason why I won't re-up again, and I intend to ride the rest of my time out (assuming of course, the world doesn't end next month ;-) ).


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## Lattice

I got out because I got tired of not being held to the same standard. So I can understand you wanting to get out on principal. 

Now I will agree that through my interaction with young grunts, they did seem to be all hopped up and ready to shoot. But I don't reckon that things have changed much in the last nine or ten years. The "decisions" may have been made by the upper echelon, but the military is ran by the SNCOs and senior NCOs. 

Now since I am so far removed, can you please explain what you mean by "leftward lean"?


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## Alpha-17

Lattice said:


> Now since I am so far removed, can you please explain what you mean by "leftward lean"?


By that I mean what policies are done, and the focus the Army makes on things. For instance, suicides. Rather than go after the root problem (deployments, marriage problems, bad leadership, whatever), they use it as an excuse to go after guns. Gun registration is required to bring them on post, and my last 1SG in the 82nd tried to force me into storing all my POWs in the company arms room, instead of off post. Several OpSec/Security briefings I have had have basically said that we should report people for complaining about the government, or holding to certain beliefs. Finally, there was the whole fiasco with Catholic Chaplains being told that they couldn't preach/tell their congregations about the problems ObamaCare would give to Catholic Organizations and hospitals concerning birth control. I'm not Catholic, but the issue remains.

I'm willing to consider that I'm reading too much into little things like this, but this stuff, as well as a general feeling I've noticed over the past couple years, has me convinced of the "leftward" lean.

Oh, and while yes, NCOs make stuff happen, they get promoted when they make their bosses happy, and their bosses are happy only when their bosses are happy. Few years, especially if they promote people like they have been, and the culture begins to shift.


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## Rocky

Well said, Alpha.


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## Alpha-17

Denton said:


> This is by design. Notice, for example, the pathway to citizenship by serving in the military. These people, do they feel obligated to the founding fathers and their Creator, or do they feel obligated to the "government" as it is, today? Which way do you expect to see their rifles be pointed?


Exactly right. People like to make comparisons to ancient Rome all the time, but this one is actually one of the good ones. Towards the end, Rome started recruiting soldiers from the barbarian tribes on the fringes of the Empire. When push came to shove, they owed little loyalty to the people of the Empire, and quickly turned on them when ordered to do so. While I have no problem with immigrants wanting to earn their citizenship by serving in the military, it is scary to think about where their loyalties might lie.


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## Lattice

Alpha-17 said:


> By that I mean what policies are done, and the focus the Army makes on things. For instance, suicides. Rather than go after the root problem (deployments, marriage problems, bad leadership, whatever), they use it as an excuse to go after guns. Gun registration is required to bring them on post, and my last 1SG in the 82nd tried to force me into storing all my POWs in the company arms room, instead of off post. Several OpSec/Security briefings I have had have basically said that we should report people for complaining about the government, or holding to certain beliefs. Finally, there was the whole fiasco with Catholic Chaplains being told that they couldn't preach/tell their congregations about the problems ObamaCare would give to Catholic Organizations and hospitals concerning birth control. I'm not Catholic, but the issue remains.
> 
> I'm willing to consider that I'm reading too much into little things like this, but this stuff, as well as a general feeling I've noticed over the past couple years, has me convinced of the "leftward" lean.
> 
> Oh, and while yes, NCOs make stuff happen, they get promoted when they make their bosses happy, and their bosses are happy only when their bosses are happy. Few years, especially if they promote people like they have been, and the culture begins to shift.


Im sorry to hear that has been your experience. The gun thing? Yeah it was a pain legally purchasing one in town near base. And there were times when different people would try to get you to keep them in the armory even back then. But there was never any order that required you to store it on base.

As for the other stuff? I can't speak on it, but you and the others here are the first to tell me of things like this. So thanks for the heads up.


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## Lucky Jim

*A NAME ON THE WALL..*










Chaplain Charles J. Watters, posthumously awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, Dak To, Vietnam 1967


























Citation- "For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. Chaplain Watters distinguished himself during an assault in the vicinity of Dak To. 
Chaplain Watters was moving with one of the companies when it engaged a heavily armed enemy battalion. As the battle raged and the casualties mounted, Chaplain Watters, with complete disregard for his safety, rushed forward to the line of contact. Unarmed and completely exposed, he moved among, as well as in front of the advancing troops, giving aid to the wounded, assisting in their evacuation, giving words of encouragement, and administering the last rites to the dying. 
When a wounded paratrooper was standing in shock in front of the assaulting forces, Chaplain Watters ran forward, picked the man up on his shoulders and carried him to safety. As the troopers battled to the first enemy entrenchment, Chaplain Watters ran through the intense enemy fire to the front of the entrenchment to aid a fallen comrade. A short time later, the paratroopers pulled back in preparation for a second assault. Chaplain Watters exposed himself to both friendly and enemy fire between the 2 forces in order to recover 2 wounded soldiers. 
Later, when the battalion was forced to pull back into a perimeter, Chaplain Watters noticed that several wounded soldiers were lying outside the newly formed perimeter. Without hesitation and ignoring attempts to restrain him, Chaplain Watters left the perimeter three times in the face of small arms, automatic weapons, and mortar fire to carry and to assist the injured troopers to safety. Satisfied that all of the wounded were inside the perimeter, he began aiding the medics--applying field bandages to open wounds, obtaining and serving food and water, giving spiritual and mental strength and comfort. During his ministering, he moved out to the perimeter from position to position redistributing food and water, and tending to the needs of his men. Chaplain Watters was giving aid to the wounded when he himself was mortally wounded. Chaplain Watters' unyielding perseverance and selfless devotion to his comrades was in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army"

Chaplain Watters is one of seven chaplains to receive the Medal of Honor.
Jesus said- _"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends" John 15:13_


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## kyletx1911a1

^^^well done good and faithful servant much man


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## Alpha-17

While I consider myself a devout believer, and am glad to find other believers on this site, we've kinda gotten off topic. A discussion elsewhere about the role of religion/faith in a survival situation would be probably be interesting, but really doesn't belong here.

Lattice, I understand what you are trying to say about Christianity, or at least those professing to be Christian, carrying out horrifying acts. The Church has more than once forgotten itself and done things that must have made Christ weep. Please don't judge Christianity by that acts of men, but rather by the faith itself.


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## inceptor

In reading here and other things you have posted I understand you are correct on most, if not all things. NP :mrgreen: 

My discussion on this matter has ended. Besides, Lattice is correct, we are way off topic.


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## mwhartman

Folks, I'm willing to leave this thread open and active but it MUST return to topic! Any future discussion or conversation on religion and the thread will be closed and infractions issued.


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## Elia Cid

inceptor said:


> we are way off topic.


Thank you !...


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## Lattice

Well there ya go.


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## Lattice

We really need another thread. Cause there is a lot here to talk about. But the boss man did just say to stay on topic.


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## Denton

This is on topic. 
We've quietly sat and watched all the other rights outlined in the Bill of Rights be trampled. As it is, today, many places around the nation so strictly regulate the right to keep and bear that is not to be infringed, hardly anyone not a criminal or "authority" has a weapon.

A little late to ask a board of people what we, as individuals, will do when they come for us.

John Adams, I apologize.
*Posterity! you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom! I hope you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it.*


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## rice paddy daddy

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson
"America is at that awkward age. It's too late to work within the system, and too soon to shoot the bastards." Claire Wolf


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## Elia Cid

rice You have finally wrote something I can agree with... paddy daddy said:


> "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson
> "America is at that awkward age. It's too late to work within the system, and too soon to shoot the bastards." Claire Wolf


You have finally written something I can agree with...


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## MountainMan

badey said:


> I'm not going to answer for myself, but I think some Americans will turn over the contents of their magazines at super-sonic speeds before they turn over their guns.


Yup. They can start with the bullets and if anybody's left standing then they can have the guns.


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## Survivalmom

I only own one legally registered weapon and I sold it when I lost my job.  Everything else I have is unregistered and hidden. I am not turning a darn thing over to them.


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## Lattice

If you believe that it is time to hide your guns. It is really time to pick them up.


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## Survivalmom

They are easily gotten too =) but not easily found. If push comes to shove I feel I can access them in a timely manner.


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## Rogue_Scout

I will tell you like I will tell everyone else.... If they want my guns they are welcome to them... but after I am laying in a pool of my own blood.


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## MountainMan

Lattice said:


> If you believe that it is time to hide your guns. It is really time to pick them up.


Beautifully stated mah dear.


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## Alaska

I lost all of mine in a horrific boating accident.

All I have left is .22 and a tater gun


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## MountainMan

lol. Holy crap I just got the whole "lost in a boating accident thing".


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## MountainMan

It seems that I too have run into some nautical difficulties and have subsequently lost all of my weapons as well. In addition this accident shed new light on my political beliefs and I am now totally for the revocation of all basic rights.

Joke so pleeeeeeeeeease don't make mwhartman shut us down by saying something stupid. lol. 

mwhartman that was a joke too so don't get mad. lol.


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## jgriner

I may try going the, lost them in last year's flood, or all were stolen bit, if they start registering them at that point I'll start bearing them in the yard. 

Registration is all ways the first step, has always been that way, will always be that way. 

If they find them and the flood/stolen bits don't work, then there is the "you will pry them from my cold dead hands"


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## acidlittle

I've thought about this long and hard, I would hide most of them, but if they caught me off guard then I would gladly give them up. Remember you can go out in a blaze of glory by blasting them, but the media will easily skew the events and make you seem crazy, thus proving no point. You do no good dead, and no good locked up in jail....


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## Alaska

They wont go door to door

it will be done subtly starting with law abiding folks

I appreciate the bravado but if they did knock on your door and you went out in a hail of gun fire it would be fairly short lived for about 99% of ya

there are other ways, but I dont care t type em on here.


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## jgriner

acidlittle said:


> I've thought about this long and hard, I would hide most of them, but if they caught me off guard then I would gladly give them up. Remember you can go out in a blaze of glory by blasting them, but the media will easily skew the events and make you seem crazy, thus proving no point. You do no good dead, and no good locked up in jail....


im afraid if it gets to the point where they start confiscating your guns, there wont me much of media left. If we get to that point we will be in a full fledged civil war.

.
.
.
.
.

"Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [i.e., securing inherent and inalienable rights, with powers derived from the consent of the governed], it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
Thomas Jefferson

"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence &#8230; from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable &#8230; the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; &#8230;"
Samuel Adams

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves &#8230;"
Richard Henry Lee

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson

"&#8230; the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
Philadelphia Federal Gazette


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## Elia Cid

jgriner said:


> im afraid if it gets to the point where they start confiscating your guns, there wont me much of media left. If we get to that point we will be in a full fledged civil war.
> 
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> 
> "Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [i.e., securing inherent and inalienable rights, with powers derived from the consent of the governed], it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence
> 
> "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
> Thomas Jefferson
> 
> "The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
> Thomas Jefferson
> 
> "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
> Thomas Jefferson
> "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
> Richard Henry Lee
> 
> "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence &#8230; from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable &#8230; the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
> George Washington
> 
> "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; &#8230;"
> Samuel Adams
> 
> "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
> George Mason
> 
> "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves &#8230;"
> Richard Henry Lee
> 
> "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
> Zachariah Johnson
> 
> "&#8230; the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
> Philadelphia Federal Gazette


What has amazed me is how some of our elected officials in collusion with the media and others have been able to pull off the disarming of America to the degree it has , in a piecemeal fashion by deceit misdirection and fear... 
The media sensationalizing and saturating the airways with any and all incidents concerning weapons with their motto "if it bleeds it leads" making us fearful of weapons and only safe in the hands of enforcement types...
At the same time producing an abundance of law enforcement type shows in the media making them the ideal ...
By telling us it was about the other guy the bad guys ,they will protect us ,they are the good guys...
When all along it was about "us"...

The making illegal and the demonizing of things like :

1. Certain types of ammuniton...
2. Gun barrel length ...
3. Automatic weapons ...
4. Suppressed weapons ...
5. Body Armor ...
6. On and on...

On the one hand demonizing weapons and on the other arming themselves to the teeth...

The notion here by the authorities is until full confiscation is achieved , we will allow the general population to own and possess weapons as long as they are not as powerful , equal or superior to our weapons, that is the standard by which the ATF operates from ...


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## usav8er

Sold most of mine years ago. The rest disappeared during a bad storm years ago. Either they were carried away by the tornado or looters got them........and all my ammo too.


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## kel t

"Sorry sir, but the guys that y'all sent around earlier today has them."


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## inceptor

They won't be knocking on doors. They may start running down ccl holders but the main thrust will be a program that your neighbor will turn you in for cash, prizes or both. This has already been tried in nj


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## Smitty901

Quoting the Constitution as a means of defending your gun rights is meaningless. 1 they will do as they please no madder what you think it says. 2. 5 of 9 will tell you what it means and the one that will come to take you weapons will be appointing the last vote he needs in the next couple years. That settles that. We have not had a Constitutions for about 4 years now. We have a" outdated document that is no longer relevant" a quote from him. 5of of 9 will tell you what it says based on their agenda and that alone.
We got by with one vote the last time and Obama's said loud and clear "they got it wrong, I will fix that when I appoint one more justice" Those are hios words not mine. For get Congress they have been put in their place by executive orders.
If they come before SHTF they won't be here, if they come after they will fail.
Not the first time in history
Molon labe look it up if you don't know the words.


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