# What is your timeline for storage?



## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Just how long are you preparing for? 6 months? 1 year? 5 or 10 years?

My goal has always been to have enough food & supplies put up to last about a year and the ability to provide more for longer.....as with my chickens & garden. 

BUT is that really enough? Simple answer is probably not and it would actually depend on many outside influences as to how long we'd need to survive from our stores. But what kind of timeline do you expect your stores to last or that you would need it???


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

6 months minimum and plenty of seeds for next years’ planting.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

If left alone, I can live well past a year. However, I do not expect to be left alone.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Prepared One said:


> If left alone, I can live well past a year. However, I do not expect to be left alone.


And there's the rub my friend.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

StratMaster said:


> And there's the rub my friend.


Indeed my friend, I am an army of one with nothing more to lose since my wife passed. Those who would think me easy prey would be wise to consider that. Then again, how could they know that I have nothing more to do in this life then to take a bunch of useful idiots to hell with me. :devil:


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

1-2 years


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Slippy said:


> 1-2 years


Damm @Slippy !

How much bourbon do you have stashed?


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

We, for five years, expect no one other than my brother and wife.

Have no blood relatives left alive to leech, ex in laws been told NEVER come here.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

duplicate, system screwed again, no change in post count of 7,976, should have gone to 7,977.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

JustAnotherNut said:


> BUT is that really enough? Simple answer is probably not and it would actually depend on many outside influences as to how long we'd need to survive from our stores. But what kind of timeline do you expect your stores to last or that you would need it???


The way I see it, it makes no difference if your stores can last you over a year, if you can't be secure/safe. Your security is as important, or more so, than how much food you have. If you don't have a valid plan for long term security then your stores may go to others. Sure, we all have guns... lots of guns. But in reality, last thing you want to do is constantly fight for your survival. Rambo isn't real. In the real world, anyone can get hurt/killed in a fight. Sure, you can maybe fight off some raiders but what about your neighbors that are starving? They have a right to be there so you just can't shoot them on sight. If they are starving and you have plenty, they become a huge threat. At any time, one or more neighbors could take you out to have access to your preps.

So yes I have stores enough to last me & mine a few years. But my plan is to share my stores with most families on our rural, dead end lane. The plan would be to come together as a small community to share resources and for joint security. That way your neighbors don't become a threat. On our lane, we have a couple of farmers with cattle herds. We have a dentist and a couple of nurses. Most are ******** and are avid hunters/woodsmen. Several have large gardens, one has bee hives and a few, like me keep chickens. I have a pond full of grain fed catfish and there are several larger lakes around. The woods are full of deer & other game but I wouldn't expect that to last.

So I see my stores as a temporary fix to provide food for many for a short amount of time... under a year. It is designed to buy us time to get organized and to get food crops in the ground so that the community can become self reliant. I keep many hundreds of pounds of garden seed in storage and at the fist sign of a crisis, when others are fighting over food in the stores, I'll be at the farm supply loading up on more seed, fertilizer & chemicals.

Everyone's situation is different, so I understand what I plan wouldn't work for many. However, I'm afraid too many preppers just think about how much they have in storage and don't really consider their safety... besides being Rambo.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

@*******,

here is where you and I differ, I don't have any close neighbors,

save one an old lady and her 65 year old daughter.

And yes we are rural ourselves. the other side of the lake

has become infested with some of the wealthiest people who commute to

Boston everyday to their upper management positions,

they have driven the property values sky high and the taxes too.

Now, what there are for "neighbors" on the main road,

I have never met and never will.

They, from their appearances are a lot better off than I am,

and many have nice boats on the lake.

I do not give a shit for them or their survival,

just like they couldn't care less about mine.

I have been here for 43 years now and never have met any of them,

including the ones who have moved out in the past.

I will provide nothing to them, they would probably not even look here,

based on their status, of upwardly mobile libtards.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

SOCOM42 said:


> @*******,
> 
> here is where you and I differ, I don't have any close neighbors, save one an old lady and her 65 year old daughter.
> 
> ...


As I said, everyone's situation is different. I have several close in neighbors that are friends. I know all on our lane.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

******* said:


> As I said, everyone's situation is different. I have several close in neighbors that are friends. I know all on our lane.


I give you kudos for your willing to help, a good Christian.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

SOCOM42 said:


> I give you kudos for your willing to help, a good Christian.


Thank you sir! I try. But it is more than being a good person... it is being well prepared for the situation I'm in. I can't and won't help everyone. That is the horrible truth.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

******* said:


> The way I see it, it makes no difference if your stores can last you over a year, if you can't be secure/safe. Your security is as important, or more so, than how much food you have. If you don't have a valid plan for long term security then your stores may go to others. Sure, we all have guns... lots of guns. But in reality, last thing you want to do is constantly fight for your survival. Rambo isn't real. In the real world, anyone can get hurt/killed in a fight. Sure, you can maybe fight off some raiders but what about your neighbors that are starving? They have a right to be there so you just can't shoot them on sight. If they are starving and you have plenty, they become a huge threat. At any time, one or more neighbors could take you out to have access to your preps.
> 
> So yes I have stores enough to last me & mine a few years. But my plan is to share my stores with most families on our rural, dead end lane. The plan would be to come together as a small community to share resources and for joint security. That way your neighbors don't become a threat. On our lane, we have a couple of farmers with cattle herds. We have a dentist and a couple of nurses. Most are ******** and are avid hunters/woodsmen. Several have large gardens, one has bee hives and a few, like me keep chickens. I have a pond full of grain fed catfish and there are several larger lakes around. The woods are full of deer & other game but I wouldn't expect that to last.
> 
> ...


Yeah I get that and had thought our little community would come together to help each other out, but due to some recent changes and 'developments', that may or may not still be an option. While I can't feed everybody, I can currently help them to help themselves.....by offering up a few chickens & garden seeds or how to make a pound of burger stretch to feed 4 people 4 meals in exchange for??? I doubt most peoples cupboards are completely bare at any given time (yet or currently), so that would give some time to get them set up to provide for themselves. But that diminishes the closer we get to fall/winter. It would be nice to have enough warning of some future event that would upset the cookie cart, so that the neighborhood could come together to make a plan and get everyone set up to ride out whatever trouble.......but that means alot of people having to be on the same page & ready to hear it & act on it. While you can count on others to want to eat & survive & know their backs are covered for safety DURING an event......you can't count on them to have the forethought right now to be willing to 'come together' to achieve that.

And because of recent changes in the neighborhood, we've been toying with the idea of getting rid of the chickens and not doing another garden next year, just so we don't stick out like a sore thumb. But we really don't want to do that since we finally have a great broody hen and a darned good rooster. Both of which can be impossible to find & get back later. It's quite the conundrum.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

I’ve already rebuilt my food and supply stocks back up to pre-covid levels. Actually, better than that. I probably have more on hand now than ever before. I increased antibiotics and spare parts. I’ve already bought next years seeds. I’m increasing levels of non-long term foods. I even found bread flour and yeast today. I’ve got a second small freezer in hand now and got an additional 3 nato jerry cans. Heating coal and fuel oil all topped up already. I will fill all the fuel and diesel cans in the fall and fill up the freezers with meat pre-election. I’m planning on things going totally to shit right around election time and I want stocked to survive with only one or two grocery runs per month for fresh veggies all winter. Also laying in a full winters worth of dog food in October. Hoping for the best and planning for the worst.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

I was given a two year old refrigerator/freezer combo, stainless steel job, will be here in the next week or two.

It is going in my shop replacing the GE "monitor" that was in there, it died after 87 years!!!!!!

That freezer will be filled quickly, along with other stuff in the fridge part.

The important thing I found out is the need for interim stores, to keep from cutting into long term food stores.

I have now stored food for a two year interim plan that requires no other packaging, just mouse proofing, which is easy here.

I have serious doubts with this coming election, riots in either direction with the outcome.

Nothing has settled down, nightly riots are becoming commonplace, and in some cities encouraged by the mayors out in support.

Tomorrow I have to go within a 100 yards of where there are demonstrations daily, a hospital.

I will be armed to the teeth, and so will daughter so be.

Have 2 BP vest in cherokee that will go on us if needed before zone entry.

The city is a "sanctuary city" so you can figure it out.

There was a gang related gun battle just outside of the house where I lived with my parents in the 60s and early 70s. 

And another one, a running gun gun battle between two cars on the other side of the city where I have to go tomorrow.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

SOCOM42 said:


> I was given a two year old refrigerator/freezer combo, stainless steel job, will be here in the next week or two.
> 
> It is going in my shop replacing the GE "monitor" that was in there, it died after 87 years!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Be safe.

I agree the closer we get to the election and especially after, it will get worse.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Chiefster23 said:


> I've already rebuilt my food and supply stocks back up to pre-covid levels. Actually, better than that. I probably have more on hand now than ever before. I increased antibiotics and spare parts. I've already bought next years seeds. I'm increasing levels of non-long term foods. I even found bread flour and yeast today. I've got a second small freezer in hand now and got an additional 3 nato jerry cans. Heating coal and fuel oil all topped up already. I will fill all the fuel and diesel cans in the fall and fill up the freezers with meat pre-election. I'm planning on things going totally to shit right around election time and I want stocked to survive with only one or two grocery runs per month for fresh veggies all winter. Also laying in a full winters worth of dog food in October. Hoping for the best and planning for the worst.


Any chance you can find a spot inside your house for a few plant pots, that you can grow some fresh veggies?

Also, if you have a garden growing now.....as you harvest from it and pull the plants, you can still prep the bed and replant for a fall harvest. Those cool weather veggies, like some lettuces, spinach, cabbage, broccoli, carrots, etc that can handle some light frosts can even survive a freeze or two if you protect it somehow......either a cold/hot frame of some sort, or some kind of row cover, or even extra mulch. Doubtful it will protect all winter, but can sure extend the growing season


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

As I said, I have enough storage for 1 to 2 years if I am conservative. As for my neighbors? Maybe some will be of help, some most definitely not. My hope is to lay as low as possible and try to survive the initial waves. At 60 I am no Rambo, as the ******* is so fond of saying, but I will do as best I can with what I have. While staying out of the fray will be the first option, If the fight comes to me I will do what I have always done, I will do what needs to be done and I'll not lose a moments sleep over it. Truth is, I don't like most people and trust even fewer, so I have little compassion for those who would intend harm for me and mine.

I have plans of course to bug out but it's not high on my list. Contingency plans A, B, C, etc. But, when it comes down to it, I am inclined to stay here with my storage and protection, at least in the initial throws of disaster, and I will just have to oblige those who see fit among my "fellow man" to bring the fight to me.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

JustAnotherNut said:


> Any chance you can find a spot inside your house for a few plant pots, that you can grow some fresh veggies?
> 
> Also, if you have a garden growing now.....as you harvest from it and pull the plants, you can still prep the bed and replant for a fall harvest. Those cool weather veggies, like some lettuces, spinach, cabbage, broccoli, carrots, etc that can handle some light frosts can even survive a freeze or two if you protect it somehow......either a cold/hot frame of some sort, or some kind of row cover, or even extra mulch. Doubtful it will protect all winter, but can sure extend the growing season


I have tried sucession planting before with very poor sucess. I have been freezing and canning my garden prduction so I have some veggies put back already with more on the way. Tomatoes are just starting to ripen so they will be next on the canning schedule.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> I have tried sucession planting before with very poor sucess. I have been freezing and canning my garden prduction so I have some veggies put back already with more on the way. Tomatoes are just starting to ripen so they will be next on the canning schedule.


I truly wish I was better at growing things. If I have to depend on a garden when all this shit hits the big fan blades I am a dead man. :vs_laugh: I have peppers this year but my tomatoes never took off. Really, I am the type who kills fake plants.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Prepared One said:


> I truly wish I was better at growing things. If I have to depend on a garden when all this shit hits the big fan blades I am a dead man. :vs_laugh: I have peppers this year but my tomatoes never took off. Really, I am the type who kills fake plants.


So if by some miracle of miracles, you managed a huge bumper crop of something.......how would you preserve it for later? Freeze? Dehydrate? Can it?

I ask for two reasons....1.) Ya just never know, you might get a crop and 2.) You could always hit the local produce stands that may sell by the box full, then take it home & preserve it like you would if you had grown it yourself (but didn't) just to add some extra cushion to your supplies.

Got dirt? Plant some radishes to start, only takes about 28 days to harvest and both bulb and leaves are edible. Either eat as is, or in a salad or even cooked. I've not tried cooked radishes before, but I've seen recipes for them. Does your soil have compost or enough organic matter to feed the soil that feeds the plants? What type of soil? Sand, hard clay? What about PH levels...is it too acidic(sour) or too alkaline(sweet)? Do you water too much or not enough?

Yes lots of questions, but trying to help ya out


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

JustAnotherNut said:


> So if by some miracle of miracles, you managed a huge bumper crop of something.......how would you preserve it for later? Freeze? Dehydrate? Can it?


That is why my go to crop for an extended crisis is the three sisters garden. All three sisters, field corn, pole beans & winter squash can easily be stored without any special tools. The corn is left to dry on the stalks and is then stored in corn cribs. The beans likewise dry on the corn stalks and just need to be gathered. The winter squash, with its hard skin (rind) will last many months.

When in doubt, do as folks did many years past.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

JustAnotherNut said:


> So if by some miracle of miracles, you managed a huge bumper crop of something.......how would you preserve it for later? Freeze? Dehydrate? Can it?
> 
> I ask for two reasons....1.) Ya just never know, you might get a crop and 2.) You could always hit the local produce stands that may sell by the box full, then take it home & preserve it like you would if you had grown it yourself (but didn't) just to add some extra cushion to your supplies.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't have a lot of ground to work with really. Most of my back yard is pool and deck. Got a small strip of dirt I plant tomatoes and peppers in back of the garage. (When I bought the house some 20 years ago gardening was not high on the list) Never been much for gardening anyways. Wife liked to garden a bit but not overly so. As well, she was the caner in the family. So, for now I will make do with my storage and supplement where I can. I appreciate the input and always read with interest how people do their planting.


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## charito (Oct 12, 2013)

JustAnotherNut said:


> Just how long are you preparing for? 6 months? 1 year? 5 or 10 years?
> 
> My goal has always been to have enough food & supplies put up to last about a year and the ability to provide more for longer.....as with my chickens & garden.
> 
> BUT is that really enough? Simple answer is probably not and it would actually depend on many outside influences as to how long we'd need to survive from our stores. But what kind of timeline do you expect your stores to last or that you would need it???


Approximately 6 months.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

Keep in mind that you need to consider "calories per day" when determining how much food you actually have. Assuming not working too hard the average person will require at least 2000 calories per day. Men closer to 2300, women about 1800 calories per day for moderate work. Working hard outside I burn about 2600 calories a day. A fireman fighting wildfires all day will burn about 3500 calories. My wife working at the office burns about 1400 calories a day.
MOST prepared long term storage food kits barely provide 1200 calories per day, During WW2 1100 calories a day was considered starvation level feeding for prisoners sitting most of the day and a slow death for those who worked. Legacy Foods does provide the minimum required 2000 calories per day, Wise and Mountain House do not.

2000 calories per day. Check your stored food and do the math.
A #10 can of white rice (about 6 1/2 lbs) is 15,000 calories or about 7 days of food.
A #10 can of dehydrated green beans is about 1800 calories or about 1 day of food.

Everybody's budget is different but none of us are professional organic farmers, especially with limited fuel supplies. Since the 1st years crop may not do so well I think having at least 18 months at 2000 calories per day of food on hand would be the goal. That way if your 1st year growing food fails you've got a second growing year to figure out how to farm. So for me the goal is 18 months at 2000+ calories per day. We're not there yet.

While I'd like to I can't afford enough food to feed the few neighbors I have. Plus there are all sorts of problems with trying to feed others. But at the same time I understand that without a few more people living here I can't realistically defend the property that I would hope to grow food on. We have a few family members who probably would join us (yes, I've discussed this with them) and put up a bit for them but probably will never have enough to have 2000 calories per day for 18 months for everybody.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Elvis said:


> Everybody's budget is different but none of us are professional organic farmers, especially with limited fuel supplies. Since the 1st years crop may not do so well I think having at least 18 months at 2000 calories per day of food on hand would be the goal. That way if your 1st year growing food fails you've got a second growing year to figure out how to farm. So for me the goal is 18 months at 2000+ calories per day. We're not there yet.


Sounds logical. I used the calorie count to determine how much long term stores I would need per person. As I added more & more food into storage, I would tell myself I just provided for another person. Maybe it was a mind game but it broke up the process into manageable steps.

However I feel one can work to ensure the 1st year crop does well. That is why every year I try different crops and techniques. For example, my three sisters garden didn't work well as I tried using rows of corn, but spaced wider than normal. Even with the extra spacing, the pole beans & winter squash didn't get enough light and those plants suffered for it. So I learned, the tried & true methods the native Americans used are best. Lots of small, round food plots where all plants get equal sunlight works best. I have tested amaranth for several years and now feel 100% confident anyone can grow that crop and can produce huge yields of nutritious food.

Also keep in mind, that first year, if living a rural life like me, one could expect to harvest a fair amount of wild game. That will certainly add to the calorie count. I can likewise add to the calorie count by sharing resources with my neighbors with cattle herds. But then there are things rural preppers can do now to provide a steady supply of calories each & every year. One of which is by planting & maintaining orchards, berry patches, grapes & nut trees. I have around 150 fruit trees on my property and they will provide calories each and every year. Another thing one can do is have ponds stocked with fish. My pond is just an acre in size, but since I feed them every day, it is loaded with channel cats ranging in size from small yearlings to 30 lbs. That is thousands of lbs of fresh meat always available and with management, self sustaining.

Guess my point is, after the crisis hits, it will probably be too late to try to figure out how to be self sufficient.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

******* said:


> Also keep in mind, that first year, if living a rural life like me, one could expect to harvest a fair amount of wild game. That will certainly add to the calorie count. I can likewise add to the calorie count by sharing resources with my neighbors with cattle herds. But then there are things rural preppers can do now to provide a steady supply of calories each & every year. One of which is by planting & maintaining orchards, berry patches, grapes & nut trees. I have around 150 fruit trees on my property and they will provide calories each and every year. Another thing one can do is have ponds stocked with fish. My pond is just an acre in size, but since I feed them every day, it is loaded with channel cats ranging in size from small yearlings to 30 lbs. That is thousands of lbs of fresh meat always available and with management, self sustaining.
> .


Like you I also have cows, chickens, and fruit trees but no fish pond. I only keep a tiny garden but a friend farms about 60 acres across the road, mostly corn, soybeans, and wheat but no one lives on that property or the property beyond. But while having no close neighbors allows me the ability to grow more food it also will become an attractant to people looking for food.

It's generally agreed on that lots of people from urban areas will "run for the hills". This will make working a large garden potentially hazardous. especially for the 1st year or so. Bellowing cows and crowing roosters can be heard from a mile away as can the sound of a diesel tractor or roto-tiller. 
We plan to run saws and tractors, target practice, and other noisy items for the 1st few weeks. After that the plan is to go very quiet and stay within 150 yds of the house which will make large scale gardening and tending the livestock more difficult.


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## paulag1955 (Dec 15, 2019)

Elvis said:


> Keep in mind that you need to consider "calories per day" when determining how much food you actually have. Assuming not working too hard the average person will require at least 2000 calories per day. Men closer to 2300, women about 1800 calories per day for moderate work. Working hard outside I burn about 2600 calories a day. A fireman fighting wildfires all day will burn about 3500 calories. My wife working at the office burns about 1400 calories a day.
> MOST prepared long term storage food kits barely provide 1200 calories per day, During WW2 1100 calories a day was considered starvation level feeding for prisoners sitting most of the day and a slow death for those who worked. Legacy Foods does provide the minimum required 2000 calories per day, Wise and Mountain House do not.
> 
> 2000 calories per day. Check your stored food and do the math.
> ...


The charts say that your wife burns about 1400 calories a day, but there's no way to know how many she actually burns. I would guess it could be plus/minus 200 calories. If I'm doing physical labor (and I don't mean weeding the garden, I mean, for example, double digging the garden) I can consume about 1500 calories a day and maintain weight, but otherwise, I have to cut back to under 1200. Those charts are useful starting points, but it pays to know your own body. That being said, 2,000 calories a day is a good goal.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

JustAnotherNut said:


> Just how long are you preparing for? 6 months? 1 year? 5 or 10 years?
> 
> My goal has always been to have enough food & supplies put up to last about a year and the ability to provide more for longer.....as with my chickens & garden.
> 
> BUT is that really enough? Simple answer is probably not and it would actually depend on many outside influences as to how long we'd need to survive from our stores. But what kind of timeline do you expect your stores to last or that you would need it???


i just had this conversation last night with my husband. I say a year. But he says, 'Just fill up the space that's available and stop there.' That's because he doesn't want to clear the shelves of all the useless junk we've acquired throughout the years... We've got a large group for me to be thinking about, so I don't there's an end in sight anytime soon.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Annie said:


> i just had this conversation last night with my husband. I say a year. But he says, 'Just fill up the space that's available and stop there.' That's because he doesn't want to clear the shelves of all the useless junk we've acquired throughout the years... We've got a large group for me to be thinking about, so I don't there's an end in sight anytime soon.


It is a never ending endeavor, you can't stop, I have been at it since the blizzard of 1978, have never stopped.

Some needs to be replaced due to age, some from consumption, a lot of my 25 year canned stuff is running out of time.

There are still things I need to get, never will end.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

we had a year of stuff but moved three times and ate some of it... we could make 2 loafs of bread a week for 1 year.

we would most likely be able to do 6 months... depending on when SHTF and what the reason - we could stretch to forever with seeds and raising chickens and rabbits and setting up a few trade and protection agreements


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

paulag1955 said:


> The charts say that your wife burns about 1400 calories a day, but there's no way to know how many she actually burns. I would guess it could be plus/minus 200 calories. If I'm doing physical labor (and I don't mean weeding the garden, I mean, for example, double digging the garden) I can consume about 1500 calories a day and maintain weight, but otherwise, I have to cut back to under 1200. Those charts are useful starting points, but it pays to know your own body. That being said, 2,000 calories a day is a good goal.


Actually my wife and I wore 2 different Fitbit watches programmed to monitor out calorie burn for over a year which allowed us to get fairly accurate calorie counts. We never used any "charts".
A day of sitting around the house tinkering on little projects I burn about 1800 calories. The most calories I ever burned in 24 hours during that year was 3200.

If SHTF happened I suspect we would average more than 2000 calories per day but as I mentioned in a previous post we have other food sources on the property.


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## paulag1955 (Dec 15, 2019)

Elvis said:


> Actually my wife and I wore 2 different Fitbit watches programmed to monitor out calorie burn for over a year which allowed us to get fairly accurate calorie counts. We never used any "charts".
> A day of sitting around the house tinkering on little projects I burn about 1800 calories. The most calories I ever burned in 24 hours during that year was 3200.
> 
> If SHTF happened I suspect we would average more than 2000 calories per day but as I mentioned in a previous post we have other food sources on the property.


Fitness trackers calculate calories burned based basal metabolic rate, which comes from a chart based on your gender, age, height and weight. That is why they ask for that information when you set up your tracker. My basal metabolic rate is 1301, which I know from literal years of tracking my calories is wrong. I would slowly gain weight on a 1300 calorie/day diet. If a person's BMR is average, then the calories burned returned by a fitness tracker will be relatively accurate, but there's no real way to know. I mean...maybe testing in a lab setting, not not for us normal folks.

Fifth topic down...

How does my Fitbit device calulate calories burned


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

True but I found the FitBit calorie burn calculations closely matched the activity level for the day for both me and my wife.. @paulag1955


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

My daily intake is around 1,200-1,400 Cal.

My weight is stable, no hard work, never been into any exercise routine, did plenty of physical work before retiring. 

My stores are based on that burn rate, never been a big eater, eat less now than before.

Have had the entry of hypoglycemia a couple of times but caught it early.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> we had a year of stuff but moved three times and ate some of it... we could make 2 loafs of bread a week for 1 year.
> 
> we would most likely be able to do 6 months... depending on when SHTF and what the reason - we could stretch to forever with seeds and raising chickens and rabbits and setting up a few trade and protection agreements


My goal is 1 loaf per day. So that means 365 quart jars of AP flour. I'm about 2/3 of the way there now.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Annie said:


> My goal is 1 loaf per day. So that means 365 quart jars of AP flour. I'm about 2/3 of the way there now.


Hell, I plan on eating more than a loaf of bread. Think about what you eat normally that is made from flour. I'm gonna want to also eat pancakes, biscuits, cake, cookies, etc. That is why my largest store, by far, is wheat berries. But I do like your method of storing flour in quart jars. That means, during a crisis, you have a very healthy inventory of jars for canning later. Doesn't work for me as I'm too lazy to make homemade bread every day. So I have cases of empty jars in storage.


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## paulag1955 (Dec 15, 2019)

Elvis said:


> True but I found the FitBit calorie burn calculations closely matched the activity level for the day for both me and my wife.. @paulag1955


How did you determine that?


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

******* said:


> Hell, I plan on eating more than a loaf of bread. Think about what you eat normally that is made from flour. I'm gonna want to also eat pancakes, biscuits, cake, cookies, etc. That is why my largest store, by far, is wheat berries. But I do like your method of storing flour in quart jars. That means, during a crisis, you have a very healthy inventory of jars for canning later. Doesn't work for me as I'm too lazy to make homemade bread every day. So I have cases of empty jars in storage.


It's a large group, which means everyone can get a slice or two per day, along with whatever else I'll be fixing. Stew, soup, etc. I can do flat bread in a pinch. I have pancake mix and oatmeal put back, too. Rice of course. Barley. Beans,beans and more beans. Pasta, red sauce..Stopped putting back quinoa. It does something awful to my digestive system.

BTW, what are you planting in the fall garden?

Sent from my SM-S337TL using Tapatalk


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## charito (Oct 12, 2013)

Elvis said:


> Keep in mind that you need to consider "calories per day" when determining how much food you actually have. Assuming not working too hard the average person will require at least 2000 calories per day. Men closer to 2300, women about 1800 calories per day for moderate work. Working hard outside I burn about 2600 calories a day. A fireman fighting wildfires all day will burn about 3500 calories. My wife working at the office burns about 1400 calories a day.
> MOST prepared long term storage food kits barely provide 1200 calories per day, During WW2 1100 calories a day was considered starvation level feeding for prisoners sitting most of the day and a slow death for those who worked. Legacy Foods does provide the minimum required 2000 calories per day, Wise and Mountain House do not.
> 
> 2000 calories per day. Check your stored food and do the math.
> ...


I hear you. 
I'd like to stock up for the immediate neighbors (even with just rolled oats, which is cheap considering the _nutrition_ it gives, and the very long 
shelf-life, and you can eat it without cooking) - but it's the storage space that's a big problem for me. 
I'm eating oats dated 2016 - can't tell the difference between it and new one.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Annie said:


> BTW, what are you planting in the fall garden?


Today I'm planting Slenderette bush beans, where my sweet corn was planted. My wife LOVES those beans & they are really sweet when harvested in the fall when it gets cooler. A bit later I'll be putting in collard & mustard greens as well as broccoli. I'll grow a good bit of collards as they are my favorite and I will need to load the freezers with them.

You know, I find where my fall crops do better than spring crops. The timing just seems better in the fall. When I plant a spring crop, say these exact same items, the timing is backward. They are trying to germinate when the soil is cold (cool), start growing slowly when it is cool but harvest as it has gotten much warmer... and thus more bug/disease issue. In the fall, the seeds germinate quickly due to the warm soil, grow quickly while not cool but harvest when cool... with less bugs/disease. Plus most of those veggies taste better when harvested in cool weather as opposed to warm.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

******* said:


> Today I'm planting Slenderette bush beans, where my sweet corn was planted. My wife LOVES those beans & they are really sweet when harvested in the fall when it gets cooler. A bit later I'll be putting in collard & mustard greens as well as broccoli. I'll grow a good bit of collards as they are my favorite and I will need to load the freezers with them.
> 
> You know, I find where my fall crops do better than spring crops. The timing just seems better in the fall. When I plant a spring crop, say these exact same items, the timing is backward. They are trying to germinate when the soil is cold (cool), start growing slowly when it is cool but harvest as it has gotten much warmer... and thus more bug/disease issue. In the fall, the seeds germinate quickly due to the warm soil, grow quickly while not cool but harvest when cool... with less bugs/disease. Plus most of those veggies taste better when harvested in cool weather as opposed to warm.


Awesome. I'm with you on the less bugs factor. I bet all your dogs keep the critters out of the garden.

I was unable to plant this spring due to circumstances, but am looking forward to getting some things in the earth tomorrow. Kind of a late start for my zone, but I'm sure I can get some return.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Annie said:


> Awesome. I'm with you on the less bugs factor. I bet all your dogs keep the critters out of the garden.
> 
> I was unable to plant this spring due to circumstances, but am looking forward to getting some things in the earth tomorrow. Kind of a late start for my zone, but I'm sure I can get some return.


Sorry to hear that. Hope all is better or more manageable now. And yep, don't have to worry about critters in my garden. Nine dogs keep critters & people away.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Elvis said:


> Keep in mind that you need to consider "calories per day" when determining how much food you actually have. Assuming not working too hard the average person will require at least 2000 calories per day. Men closer to 2300, women about 1800 calories per day for moderate work. Working hard outside I burn about 2600 calories a day. A fireman fighting wildfires all day will burn about 3500 calories. My wife working at the office burns about 1400 calories a day.
> MOST prepared long term storage food kits barely provide 1200 calories per day, During WW2 1100 calories a day was considered starvation level feeding for prisoners sitting most of the day and a slow death for those who worked. Legacy Foods does provide the minimum required 2000 calories per day, Wise and Mountain House do not.
> 
> 2000 calories per day. Check your stored food and do the math.
> ...


I try to figure more on serving size rather than try to calculate calories....which is kinda like 6 of one, half dozen of the other, and pretty much equals out.


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## paulag1955 (Dec 15, 2019)

JustAnotherNut said:


> I try to figure more on serving size rather than try to calculate calories....which is kinda like 6 of one, half dozen of the other, and pretty much equals out.


I've been dieting for so long that in my head, yes, serving size does equal calories. I can calculate the caloric value of most meals just by looking at the serving sizes.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

charito said:


> I hear you.
> I'd like to stock up for the immediate neighbors.


Playing Devils advocate here but worth considering.

You start feeding your neighbors and after a while your food stores get small. You're worried that your immediate family may need the food to get through next winter so you reliantly tell your neighbors "No more" . But after the next 2-3 months your neighbors grow thinner while your family stays healthy looking. Your neighbors kids are starving. How long before a few neighbors steal your remaining food?

example 2: You occasionally give some food to a few very trusted neighbors. You fully trust these neighbors not to shoot you in the back if you are forced to reduce their handouts. But one of these neighbors allows their 2nd cousin by marriage to stay with them after the inner city apartment he lived in was overrun by tribes of looters. Or a few neighbors let slip to their neighbors that you've got a bit of extra food socked away. How long do you thing you'll live? Especially if their kids are starving.

Play the gray man. Lose some weight like your neighbors are doing. Act as if you have no food. 
Your neighbors have the same opportunity to put extra food away as you've got.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Elvis said:


> Playing Devils advocate here but worth considering.
> 
> You start feeding your neighbors and after a while your food stores get small. You're worried that your immediate family may need the food to get through next winter so you reliantly tell your neighbors "No more" . But after the next 2-3 months your neighbors grow thinner while your family stays healthy looking. Your neighbors kids are starving. How long before a few neighbors steal your remaining food?
> 
> ...


Problem with your scenario is that you are not fully committed to the community. You are simply handing out food as long it is convenient to you. That type of community is guaranteed to fail. IMO, you either are all in or you don't even try. Can't do this half assed. In my case, my community only works if I get at least one of the two cattle farmers on board. At the point they agree, then I'd show them all my stores and start working on a plan to add neighbors. If they wanted to go it alone, then I would too. But I think they would be interested in joint security and in having something to eat besides beef, 3 meals a day. And think they would want to work together to grow more food, especially if told I have seed.

No guarantees in life... especially during a severe crisis. IMO, group survival is better than doing it alone. In a functioning group, all members succeed or all fail.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

******* said:


> Problem with your scenario is that you are not fully committed to the community. You are simply handing out food as long it is convenient to you. That type of community is guaranteed to fail. IMO, you either are all in or you don't even try. Can't do this half assed. In my case, my community only works if I get at least one of the two cattle farmers on board. At the point they agree, then I'd show them all my stores and start working on a plan to add neighbors. If they wanted to go it alone, then I would too. But I think they would be interested in joint security and in having something to eat besides beef, 3 meals a day. And think they would want to work together to grow more food, especially if told I have seed.
> 
> No guarantees in life... especially during a severe crisis. IMO, group survival is better than doing it alone. In a functioning group, all members succeed or all fail.


I don't know if I'd be showing anybody outside of immediate family my stores, no matter how 'trusted' they are or what type of agreement you're in. Even if you've known them for years and are like family, your kids grew up together, went camping or to dinner together every week. Even if they know you prep........there's just some things they don't need to know.

I have such a neighbor, and is one we could rely on in a crisis. They'd have our back and we theirs. Last year, when I redid hubs closet to add storage shelves and rearrange the pantry, she came over unexpectedly and seen alot of my stuff and jokingly said 'if SHTF, we'll be over here'. I told her no, but I'd be more than willing to help her get her own storage going and if she got a coop I'd give her a few chickens, make a garden & I'll give you some seeds, but I'm not going to give away what I've worked my butt off to get. (growing, canning or buying).......and thankfully that was last year, before Covid. That anyone that knows I've got supplies, I can use the excuse of Covid and having to live off my stores, so nobody would know just how much I do have. Sure most people I know, know I have supplies......but nobody knows just how much.

Yes, I'll help those that I can, but I want to help them help themselves......in the same thought as 'give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime' I want to teach them how to do it themselves


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

JustAnotherNut said:


> Yes, I'll help those that I can, but I want to help them help themselves......in the same thought as 'give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime' I want to teach them how to do it themselves


Yes, but in the real world, other folks don't prep. I can't plan my survival based upon a hope. I will have to deal with the reality at hand and that being, my neighbors will not have prepared. None of my neighbors know I prep and will only be told if we are in a major crisis. Even then, I wouldn't show anything until I had them on board, with their cattle herds. Understand the amount of food available with a herd of cattle. So with these farmers, it would be a partnership... not me taking care of them.

I just don't think most preppers give serious thought to how they will survive that first year. IMO, saying you will shoot everyone you see is not a plan. You can't spend a year underground. You will have to get out & around... planting, cutting wood, hunting, foraging, etc. Many here have planned out how many calories they will need each day, but have not gone into similar detail on how you will stay safe. I personally spend more time considering that than how long my food will last. They are both critical, but without a real security plan, you are doomed just like a non prepper... no matter how many calories you have in storage.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

******* said:


> Problem with your scenario is that you are not fully committed to the community. .


You got it! I'm fully committed to my family and refuse to endanger them by attracting excess attention that may attract some hostile attention. 
Yes, of the 6 families within a mile of me I know that at least two of them are at least marginal preppers with battle rifles and at least some food put up and several have planned for alternative water sources. Over the years we've lightly discussed topics that may hint at prepping with all of them. All 6 families have at least a small garden (800 sf or larger) and most have some form of livestock. In an extremally limited way I may be willing to trade with them but I will not open my pantry to them. 
Let's say neighbor X has 3 months of food put up and I say enough in general conversation to make him think that I have 12 months worth of food put up. Neighbor X has 3 teenage children and a small garden but after 4-6 months is running out of food. Do I need to worry about "a shot in the night"?


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

******* said:


> Yes, but in the real world, other folks don't prep.
> I just don't think most preppers give serious thought to how they will survive that first year. IMO, saying you will shoot everyone you see is not a plan. You can't spend a year underground. You will have to get out & around... planting, cutting wood, hunting, foraging, etc. Many here have planned out how many calories they will need each day, but have not gone into similar detail on how you will stay safe. .


Trust me when I say I've put more thought into security than I have in food and water. 
1. Avoid attracting attention. Minimal smoke, cooking odors, lights ,noise, and movement.
2. Early detection of anything moving within 300 yds of the house.
3. Avoid confrontations whenever possible and if confrontation is unavoidable minimize the confrontation. Better to keep the family safe and reclaim what is yours another day.


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## charito (Oct 12, 2013)

Elvis said:


> Playing Devils advocate here but worth considering.
> 
> You start feeding your neighbors and after a while your food stores get small. You're worried that your immediate family may need the food to get through next winter so you reliantly tell your neighbors "No more" . But after the next 2-3 months your neighbors grow thinner while your family stays healthy looking. Your neighbors kids are starving. How long before a few neighbors steal your remaining food?
> 
> ...


We're old folks. Only two of us.
Whatever is left of life for us isn't worth living if it ever comes to that........I don't know if we can ignore 
starving neighbors (especially those who have been good to us) ..............maybe, we'll share until everything is gone.......

.........................but then again, the natural instinct to want to survive may still kick in.

I suppose I'll never know how my hubby and I will react to the situation until we actually experience it.

To be inconspicuous as much as possible - to not attract any attention - is sound advice.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Elvis said:


> Let's say neighbor X has 3 months of food put up and I say enough in general conversation to make him think that I have 12 months worth of food put up. Neighbor X has 3 teenage children and a small garden but after 4-6 months is running out of food. Do I need to worry about "a shot in the night"?


Of course you do. Every prepper needs to concern themselves over folks running out of food... especially neighbors. Hungry people with starving kids will do anything to survive. I harp on neighbors as IMO, they would be the primary threat. You can't threaten or shoot neighbors for being about. They will be able to ascertain your level of preparedness by observing you daily. It would be similar to allowing spies into your camp.

I just say, put yourself into your neighbor's shoes. They are well armed, with battle rifles and good chance they are hunters. At the point they run out of food, and they notice you haven't... what happens? Do they just quietly die off or become a threat? How would you know at any given moment they wouldn't take you our, just like hunting deer? What can you do to protect you & yours?

So my question is, have you actually endangered your family more by not forming a community with those neighbors? Is allowing starving folks right next to you sound strategy? IMO, all preppers need to consider this and have a plan of action. What is your plan when the neighbors run out of food? Obviously, if you are in a subdivision with dozens of neighbors, then building a community would be almost impossible. So do you leave? If so, where? If you stay, how do you survive?


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Elvis said:


> Trust me when I say I've put more thought into security than I have in food and water.
> 1. Avoid attracting attention. Minimal smoke, cooking odors, lights ,noise, and movement.
> 2. Early detection of anything moving within 300 yds of the house.
> 3. Avoid confrontations whenever possible and if confrontation is unavoidable minimize the confrontation. Better to keep the family safe and reclaim what is yours another day.


I can tell you have given it thought and everything sounds real good. However, surely you will have to get out of the house & move about. Will you be working in the garden? Chopping & gathering wood? Going to an outhouse? Getting water? Hunting? Caring for animals? Security patrols to watch the 300 yd perimeter?

How can you provide early detection of anything moving around your house? Will you have enough folks to provide multiple people to be on guard 24 hours a day, seven days a week? You have comm gear for all? Do you have any neighbors withing that 300 yds? Any woods in that zone?

And I agree. Avoiding confrontation works best if you aren't Rambo. I'm sure not.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

******* said:


> Of course you do. Every prepper needs to concern themselves over folks running out of food... especially neighbors. Hungry people with starving kids will do anything to survive. I harp on neighbors as IMO, they would be the primary threat. You can't threaten or shoot neighbors for being about. They will be able to ascertain your level of preparedness by observing you daily. It would be similar to allowing spies into your camp.


I am fortunate in that no neighbors can see my home or even most of my property from their property.
I fully intend to work with my neighbors, we live in a food rich location so trading should work well, but I don't plan to hand out weekly food baskets.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

******* said:


> I can tell you have given it thought and everything sounds real good. However, surely you will have to get out of the house & move about. Will you be working in the garden? Chopping & gathering wood? Going to an outhouse? Getting water? Hunting? Caring for animals? Security patrols to watch the 300 yd perimeter?
> 
> How can you provide early detection of anything moving around your house? Will you have enough folks to provide multiple people to be on guard 24 hours a day, seven days a week? You have comm gear for all? Do you have any neighbors withing that 300 yds? Any woods in that zone?
> .


As I said in an earlier post we will make noise the 1st few weeks topping off wood ect but after that we intend to be quiet. I can walk 200+ yards in any direction at any time of day and not worry about being seen unless a car drives by when I'm close to the road; it's not a very busy road. So assuming we don't make much noise we can easily work the garden locations, most of which are out of sight from the road. 
Water and septic should work fine so we won't be forced to go outside. Electricity with backup onsite and a large propane tank for the stove and hot water heater so no wood cooking smoke although wood would be needed for heat when it gets really cold. Solar usually provides much of my heat.
Yes, we expect to have enough people to maintain a watch if we feel it's needed but there are also electronic sensors that will alert if something passes by. Add thermal and NV and we can keep watch if we feel it's needed.

All of this didn't happen overnight, I started low grade prepping and adding to my knowledge base 20+ years ago. Later I was fortunate enough to find this location which combined with my hobby of playing with different ways to make electricity and other hobbies has slowly helped me to make a fairly good location to get by if ever needed.

I'm not a "Rambo" type prepper. But many of my interests and hobbies support a prepping lifestyle and we prefer to live in a secluded location.


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## Rellgar (Sep 25, 2018)

What type and brand of oats do you store? And how do you store them?


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Rellgar said:


> What type and brand of oats do you store? And how do you store them?


I purchased my supply of rolled oat from Walmart a few years ago. They had really good pricing & free freight. The brand was Emergency Essentials and they came in a superpail, with mylar bag & oxygen absorber. They came ready for storage. I think almost all their product is now out of stock. You can make up your own superpails, as I have done with almost all my rice, beans & pasta. I note you can get oats here: https://www.webstaurantstore.com/50...MIktei7cuF6wIVEb7ACh1v8w5GEAQYASABEgLk7_D_BwE


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## charito (Oct 12, 2013)

Rellgar said:


> What type and brand of oats do you store? And how do you store them?


When I buy the oats, I wait about a month before I re-package them. 
This is enough time for bugs' eggs to hatch if the oats are contaminated. 
Since these are meant for a very long shelf life, I want to make sure there are no eggs before I re-package.

I stocked up on regular rolled oats - _not_ the quick-cooking kind. 
Some are Quaker brand, some are the grocery's signature brand, some from Bulk Barn. I like the large flakes.

I put them in a freezer bag (heavy duty), with some strips of towel paper mixed in (to absorb moisture), let air out.
Then I put it in another freezer bag (also air out). 
Label on date packaged, and a few bay leaves (to deter bugs), in between bags.

I put them in dark colored plastic storage boxes with dried herbs like bay leaves strewn in (again, to deter bugs), and some towel paper (for moisture). 
Some are stored in tin drum-shaped containers (which came from dog food years ago) with air-tight lids. There is no difference either between the containers. They're in the basement (cool, dark place), a few inches off the floor.

I check them every 8 months or more to see if there is any clumping. Everything looks good. The oldest ones I got which I've been eating these days, are dated 2016.

I would like to re-organize and buy enough to fit one storage box, put the date also outside the storage box. 
It makes it easier to know which ones have to be used first. Stackable boxes will give me more space.
Just so the oats don't get too old, I also use them for feeding birds and squirrels during winter time. Having been re-packaged, I don't think they'll accept them at the Food Bank.


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## beaujames7 (Jul 26, 2020)

I bought bulk rolled oats from a local organic farm, treated them with food grade DE packed it 4lbs to a gallon mylar bag with o2 absorber, same with hard red wheat except 5 lbs. to a gallon bag. DE will kill the bugs and absorb moisture.


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## paulag1955 (Dec 15, 2019)

beaujames7 said:


> I bought bulk rolled oats from a local organic farm, treated them with food grade DE packed it 4lbs to a gallon mylar bag with o2 absorber, same with hard red wheat except 5 lbs. to a gallon bag. DE will kill the bugs and absorb moisture.


Right, but I don't want DE in my food, regardless of whether it's food grade.


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## beaujames7 (Jul 26, 2020)

Just out of curiosity, may I ask why? You may know something about DE that I'm not aware of.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

beaujames7 said:


> Just out of curiosity, may I ask why? You may know something about DE that I'm not aware of.


Harmful to breath is the first thing that comes to mind. Great for my chickens to ingest and for them to breath it no big deal as there life span is only about 8 years. Humans though live long enough it will wreck havoc on your lungs and personally I wouldn't want to ingest it either.


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## beaujames7 (Jul 26, 2020)

hawgrider said:


> Harmful to breath is the first thing that comes to mind. Humans though live long enough it will wreck havoc on your lungs and personally I wouldn't want to ingest it either.


I took the part out about your chickens, you might be surprised at what chickens will eat. You raise a good point about human lungs, DE miners, like coal miners have a higher than average rate of lung diseases. I wear a mask when I'm using DE. We live in an age where all kinds of dust and toxic chemicals enter our lungs; its a crap shoot out there. Ever smoked or been around a smoker, there's a lung killer for you. Ever lived in a house built prior to the 80's, if yes, you've probably breathed in asbestos.

As for ingesting DE some people use it daily. Whenever I have health issues, and when you lived 70 years who hasn't, I try to do some research about them. My go to sites are the Mayo Clinic and WebMD. Mayo Clinic doesn't address DE. Here's what WebMd has to say:

"When taken by mouth, diatomaceous earth is used as a source of silica, for treating high cholesterol levels, for treating constipation, and for improving the health of skin, nails, teeth, bones, and hair. When applied to the skin or teeth, diatomaceous earth is used to brush teeth or remove unwanted dead skin cells."

charito said: "I put them in a freezer bag (heavy duty), with some strips of towel paper mixed in (to absorb moisture), let air out." Chlorine, a poisonous gas and formaldehyde are used in the manufacture of paper towels. When food is placed on paper towels the food can absorb the chemicals from the paper towels. I wonder how many tons of bacon with all it's nitrites has been placed on paper towels.

I don't know, I'm just an old man tryin to survive.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

My understanding is if you put oxygen absorbers in the sealed mylar bag, then that kills any insects. I also add dessicants which I think would help even more.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

beaujames7 said:


> I took the part out about your chickens, you might be surprised at what chickens will eat. You raise a good point about human lungs, DE miners, like coal miners have a higher than average rate of lung diseases. I wear a mask when I'm using DE. We live in an age where all kinds of dust and toxic chemicals enter our lungs; its a crap shoot out there. Ever smoked or been around a smoker, there's a lung killer for you. Ever lived in a house built prior to the 80's, if yes, you've probably breathed in asbestos.
> 
> As for ingesting DE some people use it daily. Whenever I have health issues, and when you lived 70 years who hasn't, I try to do some research about them. My go to sites are the Mayo Clinic and WebMD. Mayo Clinic doesn't address DE. Here's what WebMd has to say:
> 
> ...


 Umm yeah well smoked for 40 years what else is new.... I also have been in the Boiler (read asbestos covered piping) related field for 40 years.

The advise I can offer to you is stay off of web MD and Mayo clinic you'll live longer and worry less. For every disease you look up there you will have at least 3 out of ten symptoms.

With that said I'll pass on ingesting Food grade D.E and being engulfed by the dust cloud. I will use it on my farm animals though without issue.


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## paulag1955 (Dec 15, 2019)

beaujames7 said:


> Just out of curiosity, may I ask why? You may know something about DE that I'm not aware of.


It's just a completely unnecessary additive in your food. It won't hurt you to eat it; I'd just rather not. You said you wear a mask handling it. Are you going wear a mask when you prepare the oats?


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

DE is good to put around plants to deter slugs/insects. Washes away with rain.

I'd not put it into in my food stores. Although it's claimed food grade is O.K. to ingest. Farmers use it it too: in feed acts as a wormer , chickens/fowl dust in it to get rids of insect parasites ( set up one for the chickens where it won't get rained on), I've seen duster bags hung in barn doors.

For food stores I can get clean food grade 55- gal metal drums, $25 ea. Put sealed stuff inside, no bugs or vermin can get in.

I use them for garbage cans, bear/critter proof so far. And at $25 cheaper and better than store brought metal garbage cans. I get full size plastic liners to line those cans, the HD liners are big enough to hang over the top rim with the lid on.


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## paulag1955 (Dec 15, 2019)

Mad Trapper said:


> DE is good to put around plants to deter slugs/insects. Washes away with rain.
> 
> I'd not put it into in my food stores. Although it's claimed food grade is O.K. to ingest. Farmers use it it too: in feed acts as a wormer , chickens/fowl dust in it to get rids of insect parasites ( set up one for the chickens where it won't get rained on), I've seen duster bags hung in barn doors.
> 
> ...


No bugs can get in, but bugs in grains come from the grains themselves, not the storage vessels. So some kind of precautions need to be taken prior to long-term storage.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

paulag1955 said:


> No bugs can get in, but bugs in grains come from the grains themselves, not the storage vessels. So some kind of precautions need to be taken prior to long-term storage.


10-4 there.

First would be trusted source. I've had the little insects in my stores but I believe most were not pre-packaged inside, they found the stores. Mostly cereals and oats.


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## beaujames7 (Jul 26, 2020)

@******* I use oxygen absorbers, I don't completely trust them. The first batch I ever bought and used was already spent, I ended up re-bagging 50 lbs of wheat. But I'm learning. DE is a desiccant and kills insects. But I'm not trying to change any minds here. Just exchanging ideas. Everybody should do what they're comfortable with.
@hawgrider I think you understand my point. I've removed some asbestos too, but not for a living. BTW I ride a softail, on its second rebuild, it goes pretty good.

@ Mad Trapper I envy you and the others guys that have land and livestock and have the room to store in large containers.
@paulag1955 I'll probably, what was I saying, oh yeah, forget to wear a mask until I'm halfway through the pouring the oats out in the colander for rinsing.

Thanks for all your comments, I came here to learn what other folks do and I'm learning. Like all things there may be more than one correct answer.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

beaujames7 said:


> @******* I use oxygen absorbers, I don't completely trust them. The first batch I ever bought and used was already spent, I ended up re-bagging 50 lbs of wheat. But I'm learning. DE is a desiccant and kills insects. But I'm not trying to change any minds here. Just exchanging ideas. Everybody should do what they're comfortable with.


Technique I learned while putting up thousands of lbs of long term stores, is to leave the lid off the pail for a bit after sealing. If the oxygen absorbers work, which mine all have, the mylar bag will start to contract, just like if you sucked out the air. Generally means I package one day and seal the plastic pail the next. Another technique I do is to seal the bag all the way except for about 2 inches. I then remove the oxygen absorber from its bag, insert into mylar bag, pust out all possible remaining air and then seal. I then run a 2nd bead of seal under the first, just as a precaution. I feel twp seals is better than one.

IMO, once that bag contracts, any bugs or larvae will be dead. Plus as I stated, I also add dessicants which will remove any residual moisture. The pails are stored in a room that always stays cool and the contents are kept dry & in a very low oxygen environment. All I understand tells me that is what is needed to ensure your stores last for decades.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

One other thought. If you vacuum seal, how much air/oxygen is left? Do oxygen absorbers really need to used in such a case? Might a vitamin C tablet substitute?

I've not studied oxygen absorbers well. In fact in my storage not used them, no problems so far.. But I'll learn...

I worked with chemicals that would change with a wiff of air /oxygen/moisture, and handled them in inert atmospheres (argon, nitrogen). Also stored those long term. 

Some took a year just to make. Sort of like my vegetables!


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Mad Trapper said:


> One other thought. If you vacuum seal, how much air/oxygen is left? Do oxygen absorbers really need to used in such a case?


You know, I come from the school of thought if a 4x4 is good enough... I'll use a 6x6 to be extra sure. Since an oxygen absorber is not very expensive, why not use it even if you vacuum seal? That is why I also add dessicants. Now if you are just storing for a few years, no big deal. But if these need to last decades, I'm gonna use every trick available to ensure that food stays good. Your life just may depend on your actions.


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## beaujames7 (Jul 26, 2020)

******* said:


> If the oxygen absorbers work, which mine all have, the mylar bag will start to contract, just like if you sucked out the air... I then run a 2nd bead of seal under the first, just as a precaution. I feel twp seals is better than one.


My problem was not paying attention to the fact, that the bag the oxygen absorbers came in was not properly sealed. As many times as I have used a Food Saver, it should have been a red flag. When the bags weren't compressed the next day the light came on. I remember when I first started reloading I didn't check each case to make sure powder had dropped. Ended up with a bullet jammed in my barrel. Ever since I have had a small goose neck light over that station and can see the powder clearly.

I will begin double sealing, I've done it for years with the Food Saver, no reason not to do it with mylar bags.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

beaujames7 said:


> My problem was not paying attention to the fact, that the bag the oxygen absorbers came in was not properly sealed. As many times as I have used a Food Saver, it should have been a red flag. When the bags weren't compressed the next day the light came on. I remember when I first started reloading I didn't check each case to make sure powder had dropped. Ended up with a bullet jammed in my barrel. Ever since I have had a small goose neck light over that station and can see the powder clearly.
> 
> I will begin double sealing, I've done it for years with the Food Saver, no reason not to do it with mylar bags.


I also made sure I got the oxygen absorbers that were individually sealed. Once I opened that pack, I wanted to get the absorber sealed up immediately. Having multiple absorbers in the same package concerned me. Maybe they don't work so fast as to be concerned with then sitting out for a bit, but I don't know. So I choose to get them opened & sealed up within seconds.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

******* said:


> You know, I come from the school of thought if a 4x4 is good enough... I'll use a 6x6 to be extra sure. Since an oxygen absorber is not very expensive, why not use it even if you vacuum seal? That is why I also add dessicants. Now if you are just storing for a few years, no big deal. But if these need to last decades, I'm gonna use every trick available to ensure that food stays good. Your life just may depend on your actions.


I don't have stores right now to last decades, or enough years. I need bag material for vac sealers, freezer bags, canning supplies. LOTS more urgent/realistict than O2 absorbers. I'm not storing food to be dug up by zombies 20 years from now, it's not realistic.

If SHTF my stores will be done before anything goes bad in my pantry.

IMHO, rotate stores you have, unless you have a "Banker/politician" bunker to hide in for 5-10 yers......

I just located canning lids, there is a run on canning supplies. Local stores don't have vinegar, I need to check nearby.............O2 absorberers are last on my list


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Mad Trapper said:


> IMHO, rotate stores you have, unless you have a "Banker/politician" bunker to hide in for 5-10 yers......


Oh I do. But remember, I plan on feeding a lot of people. Right now there are only two of us on the farm, and on top of that, my wife is in Memphis 4 days of the week staying with her mom & aunt who are knocking on 100. So I don't go thru much food that can be rotated.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

Mad Trapper said:


> I don't have stores right now to last decades, or enough years. I need bag material for vac sealers, freezer bags, canning supplies. LOTS more urgent/realistict than O2 absorbers. I'm not storing food to be dug up by zombies 20 years from now, it's not realistic.
> 
> If SHTF my stores will be done before anything goes bad in my pantry.
> 
> ...


If you have access to apples, you can make your own Apple Cider Vinegar.

When I make applesauce with alot of apples, I cram a quart jar with the peels & cores (raw), add a couple tablespoons of sugar or honey, then top with water & let sit on the counter (room temp) up to a month or more. Just stir it once a day. If you want, you can get some ph test strips to test the acidity level. It will have a different flavor than store bought white vinegar. It's shelf stable, so when it's turned, just strain off the apple scraps, put a lid on and tuck it in your pantry. No canning needed, but you can if you choose. If after awhile it develops a 'glob' DO NOT PANIC.....that's the 'mother' that you can start a new batch with.

https://www.thespruceeats.com/apple-scrap-vinegar-1327756

Not sure what the process is for a wine vinegar, but I also understand you can make other flavors of vinegar as well. I've not tried it yet, but is probably a similar process as with ACV.


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## JustAnotherNut (Feb 27, 2017)

beaujames7 said:


> @******* I use oxygen absorbers, I don't completely trust them. The first batch I ever bought and used was already spent, I ended up re-bagging 50 lbs of wheat. But I'm learning. DE is a desiccant and kills insects. But I'm not trying to change any minds here. Just exchanging ideas. Everybody should do what they're comfortable with.
> 
> @hawgrider I think you understand my point. I've removed some asbestos too, but not for a living. BTW I ride a softail, on its second rebuild, it goes pretty good.
> 
> ...


I don't know if it's been mentioned already but......you can also put those grains in the freezer for atleast 4 days to kill off any bugs and their eggs.


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## BamaDOC (Feb 5, 2020)

JustAnotherNut said:


> If you have access to apples, you can make your own Apple Cider Vinegar.
> 
> When I make applesauce with alot of apples, I cram a quart jar with the peels & cores (raw), add a couple tablespoons of sugar or honey, then top with water & let sit on the counter (room temp) up to a month or more. Just stir it once a day. If you want, you can get some ph test strips to test the acidity level. It will have a different flavor than store bought white vinegar. It's shelf stable, so when it's turned, just strain off the apple scraps, put a lid on and tuck it in your pantry. No canning needed, but you can if you choose. If after awhile it develops a 'glob' DO NOT PANIC.....that's the 'mother' that you can start a new batch with.
> 
> ...


cool... gotta try this


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