# ER doc theorized that lack of oxygen stopped Floyd's heart.



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — 
Header::Leader
The emergency room doctor who pronounced George Floyd dead after trying to resuscitate him testified Monday that he theorized at the time that Floyd's heart most likely stopped because he didn't get enough oxygen.


April 05, 2021
Dr. Bradford Langenfeld, who was a senior resident on duty that night at Hennepin County Medical Center, took the stand at the beginning of Week Two at former Minneapolis Officer Derek Chauvin’s murder trial, as prosecutors sought to establish that it was Chauvin’s knee on the Black man’s neck that killed him.

Langenfeld said Floyd’s heart had stopped by the time he arrived at the hospital. The doctor said that he was not told of any efforts at the scene by bystanders or police to resuscitate Floyd but that paramedics told him they had tried for about 30 minutes.

Under questioning by prosecutor Jerry Blackwell, Langenfeld said that based on the information he had, death by asphyxiation was “more likely than the other possibilities.” Chauvin, 45, is charged with murder and manslaughter in Floyd's death May 25. The white officer is accused of pinning his knee on the 46-year-old man's neck for 9 minutes, 29 seconds, as Floyd lay face-down in handcuffs outside a corner market, where had been accused of trying to pass a counterfeit $20 bill for a pack of cigarettes.

The defense argues that Chauvin did what he was trained to do and that Floyd's use of illegal drugs and his underlying health conditions caused his death. Chauvin attorney Eric Nelson questioned Langenfeld about whether some drugs can cause hypoxia, or insufficient oxygen. The doctor acknowledged that fentanyl and methamphetamine, both of which were found in Floyd's body, can do so.

The county medical examiner's office ultimately classified Floyd's death a homicide — that is, a death at the hands of someone else. The full report said Floyd died of “cardiopulmonary arrest, complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” A summary report listed fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use under “other significant conditions” but not under “cause of death.”

Under cross-examination from Nelson, Langenfeld said Floyd’s carbon dioxide levels were more than twice has high as levels in healthy person, and he agreed that that could be attributed to a respiratory problem. But on questioning from the prosecutor, the doctor said the high levels were also consistent with cardiac arrest — the stopping of the heart.

Langenfeld also testified that neither he nor paramedics administered a drug that would reverse the effects of an opioid overdose. The doctor said giving Narcan once a patient is in cardiac arrest would provide no benefit.

Floyd's treatment by police was captured on widely seen bystander video that sparked protests that rocked Minneapolis and quickly spread to other U.S. cities and beyond and descended into violence in some cases.

Langenfeld said that “any amount of time” a patient spends in cardiac arrest without immediate CPR decreases the chance of a good outcome. He said there is an approximately 10% to 15% decrease in survival for every minute that CPR is not administered.

Prosecutors in the second week of the trial are also expected to zero in on Chauvin’s training in the use of force. Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo was expected to testify Monday. Arradondo, the city's first Black chief, fired Chauvin and three other officers the day after Floyd's death, and in June called it “murder.”

“Mr. George Floyd's tragic death was not due to a lack of training — the training was there,” Arradondo said then. “Chauvin knew what he was doing.” The city moved soon after Floyd's death to ban police chokeholds and neck restraints. Arradondo and Mayor Jacob Frey also made several policy changes, including expanding requirements for reporting use-of-force incidents and documenting attempts to de-escalate situations.

Prosecutors have already called supervisory officers to build the case that Chauvin improperly restrained Floyd. A duty sergeant and a lieutenant who leads the homicide division both questioned Chauvin's actions in pinning Floyd to the ground.

“Totally unnecessary,” Lt. Richard Zimmerman, the longest-tenured officer on the force, testified Friday. He said once Floyd was handcuffed, he saw “no reason for why the officers felt they were in danger, if that’s what they felt, and that’s what they would have to feel to be able to use that kind of force."

Find AP’s full coverage of the death of George Floyd at: Death of George Floyd

Subjects General news, Violent crime, Crime, Legal proceedings People Derek Chauvin, Rick Nelson, George Floyd Locations Minnesota, United States, North America, Minneapolis

NOTE:::This report has painted a damning thumbnail of the cops. And I think that the cop who is on trial is in deep doo doo.







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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I've said it since this hit the news; there's no way I would have ever done that to someone who is cuffed and on the ground. Chauvin deserves time behind bars.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Denton said:


> I've said it since this hit the news; there's no way I would have ever done that to someone who is cuffed and on the ground. Chauvin deserves time behind bars.


Agreed.. once a person is controlled the need for restraint like that is done. Drug addicted or not.. once cuffs are on get him in vehicle


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

The medical examiner could find no evidence of trauma to the neck, noting:
"No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal structures"
"No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column injuries, or visceral injuries"
"Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks negative for occult trauma"
"The neck is straight, and the trachea is midline."
"Layer by layer dissection of the anterior strap muscles of the neck discloses no areas of contusion or hemorrhage within the musculature. The thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone are intact. The larynx is lined by intact mucosa. The thyroid is symmetric and red-brown, without cystic or nodular change. The tongue is free of bite marks, hemorrhage, or other injuries. The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of hemorrhage."
(source: https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hen...lic-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf)

No evidence was found that would indicate sufficient pressure was applied to Mr. Floyd's neck to cause him to asphyxiate.

I don't yet see any evidence provided in the case that would lead to a murder conviction by a reasonable jury.
He could get manslaughter if they think it will spare them the wrath of the mob... but it won't.
Riots incoming, despite the outcome.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> Agreed.. once a person is controlled the need for restraint like that is done. Drug addicted or not.. once cuffs are on get him in vehicle


Did you see the bodycam footage?
They did get him in, and were more than cordial to his distress, saying they would lower a window and stay with him.
He would not cooperate, and was eventually pulled from the vehicle out the other side, and taken to the ground.


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> He would not cooperate, and was eventually pulled from the vehicle out the other side, and taken to the ground.


Was he taken to the ground or is that where he ended up after struggling?


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Denton said:


> I've said it since this hit the news; there's no way I would have ever done that to someone who is cuffed and on the ground. Chauvin deserves time behind bars.


IMO, when you deal with people every single day you are at work, that hate you, spit on you, taunt you and resist you, it's easier to treat them harsher. I think it's human nature.

I've said for the last 40 years, I'd be in prison for 1st degree murder within a month if I was a cop.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Robie said:


> IMO, when you deal with people every single day you are at work, that hate you, spit on you, taunt you and resist you, it's easier to treat them harsher. I think it's human nature.
> 
> I've said for the last 40 years, I'd be in prison for 1st degree murder within a month if I was a cop.


You are correct. It's easy to lose compassion when everyday you deal with people at their worst. The last L.E./C.J. stint I did was as a correctional officer at a state prison. I couldn't believe how many officers were bullies.

Regardless, the officer is responsible for the person once the person is cuffed and in custody.
Other officers milled about while Chauvin had is knee on Floyd's neck. Why weren't they installing leg restraints?

All the videos should be compiled and made into a training aid in police academy.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Robie said:


> Was he taken to the ground or is that where he ended up after struggling?


From the body cam footage, it is taken from the perspective of the officers that placed Floyd into the backseat of their SUV on the driver side.
After he refused to calm down and would not get fully into the vehicle, other officers opened the passenger side rear door and attempted to pull him all the way in.
From this point, he eventually ends up on the ground being pulled out of the passenger side, but the view from the body cam is still from the driver side.
I will need to go back and check it because my memory is fuzzy on whether the body cam'd officer made it around to the passenger side before or after Floyd was on the ground.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> .........I will need to go back and check it because my memory is fuzzy on whether the body cam'd officer made it around to the passenger side before or after Floyd was on the ground.



Here ya go:


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## Any Beastie (Mar 19, 2021)

The guy was on drugs and clearly distraught in the body cam vid. They are instructed to kneel on someone in cases needing extreme containment. I don't know if it was right or wrong but the body cam footage shows respectful cops doing what they are trained to do. I do not know if it was right. I do know that it likely had nothing to do with Floyds skin. The officers already had brutality complaints although I don't see brutality here. I see an over reaction if anything. Floyd died later in the hospital, not on the street as they want us to believe.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Any Beastie said:


> ........ Floyd died later in the hospital, not on the street as they want us to believe.


Dying at the hospital and _being declared dead _at the hospital are two different things. He could well have been dead before Chauvin's knee came off him.


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## Any Beastie (Mar 19, 2021)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Dying at the hospital and _being declared dead _at the hospital are two different things. He could well have been dead before Chauvin's knee came off him.


That's true, although from my understanding he did die in the hospital. Like I said, I don't think it was right, but I think they did what they were trained to do. Was it necessary? It's hard to tell from the footage. It is sad that this man is dead, but he is not the saint he was made to be. He shouldn't have died that day from anything other than an overdose, it would be best if he were still alive.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

8:25 PM: Floyd is unconscious.
9:25 PM : Floyd is pronounced dead at the hospital.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Here ya go:


Can you point out the timestamp of the officer's body cam footage?
I don't see a frame of it.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Here's the body cam footage I was referencing: (unedited)





Around the 8:00 mark, it appears Floyd pushes himself backwards out of the vehicle, and begins to ask to lay on the ground.
The officers begin to restrain him, and he repeatedly attempts to kick.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> Can you point out the timestamp of the officer's body cam footage?
> I don't see a frame of it.


It may have been edited out for the making of the posted video. Time stamps from multiple sources usually don't mean much anyway since they're not synchronized.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

This one gives two different angles: (body cam starts at ~ 1:00 mark, but is edited a bit)


‘Mama, I love you’: new police body-cam & CCTV footage of George Floyd’s arrest - Rumble


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> It may have been edited out for the making of the posted video. Time stamps from multiple sources usually don't mean much anyway since they're not synchronized.


I wasn't concerned with timestamps. I referenced the officer's body cam which shows the interaction at the officer's vehicle.
The video you provided does not present this body cam footage.
I've provided it above for reference.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

I’ve been in a lot of fights, in the ring and out.

One could argue that I was fighting for my life.

Not once have I ever kept my knee on the neck of a man that was unconscious. Much less if he was handcuffed. Good lord.....

I would consider that intent to kill. Several people telling you that he’s dying......check his pulse... Jesus.....

If I was on the jury several doctors would need to agree that Mr. Floyd died of drugs and the knee didn’t contribute to his death. Otherwise I would convict the police officer of some type of manslaughter or murder.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Finally found an unedited presentation of the body cams of multiple officers.
I swear, getting the actual footage should be the number one search return... but nope!


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I watched a good chunk of that latest one I posted.
I don't know how that particular state defines 2nd and 3rd degree murder, or manslaughter, but I did not see any intent to kill the man.
What I did see were several officers failing to render aid to an obviously unconscious individual, in spite of his actions that lead to his current state.
Depending on the definitions of the crimes Chauvin is charged with, he could be convicted, or he could be acquitted.
More research is needed.

EDIT:
Thankfully, Minnesota has an easily referenced criminal code. (source: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609)
I found the pertinent definitions of the charges against the former officer.


> 609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
> §Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
> (1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation;
> §Subdivision 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
> ...


2nd degree murder under Sub 1 will likely be impossible to prove. That would require proving Chauvin intended to kill Floyd.
2nd degree murder under Sub 2 would require the prosecution to prove that Chauvin committed a felony, which lead to the death of Floyd.
3rd degree murder would require the prosecution to prove that Chauvin engaged in activity that was eminently dangerous AND that he did so with "a depraved mind, without regard to human life". Since the officer training material shows this restraint being used, it will be a hard sell to convince the jury that Chauvin used it in order to introduce eminent danger, or that he was depraved in employing it.
2nd degree manslaughter will only require the prosecution to prove Chauvin did not remove unreasonable risk of death.

I'm not a lawyer, and I've not seen all the evidence, but I predict we only see the manslaughter charge receiving a guilty verdict, if any.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> ...I swear, getting the actual footage should be the number one search return... but nope!


Like...... what? You expect YouTube to care about the truth?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Like...... what? You expect YouTube to care about the truth?


The full vid didn't even pop up via search engines.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY, I TELL YA!!!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> The full vid didn't even pop up via search engines.
> 
> IT'S A CONSPIRACY, I TELL YA!!!


It may not be a conspiracy but it dang sure doesn't meet "their" Agenda...


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Kauboy said:


> Did you see the bodycam footage?
> They did get him in, and were more than cordial to his distress, saying they would lower a window and stay with him.
> He would not cooperate, and was eventually pulled from the vehicle out the other side, and taken to the ground.


The cop has a steep hill to climb, and I am going to predict that he may be convicted of second degree manslaughter. I looked up the Minnesota statutes on a lawyers site there.

Minnesota Second Degree Manslaughter:
Creating a risk that has been deemed unreasonable and consciously taking the chance of causing severe harm to another’s body or death to another human being. This risk is considered culpable negligence.

Even if he is technically innocent of that, he may be convicted of it, and sacrificed so as to avoid riots.
If he is found not guilty, then I am all for the guy, but he is probably finished being a cop. He is radioactive now.

That’s what I figure.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Did you see the bodycam footage?
> They did get him in, and were more than cordial to his distress, saying they would lower a window and stay with him.
> He would not cooperate, and was eventually pulled from the vehicle out the other side, and taken to the ground.


Yup. Floyd was losing it.


Kauboy said:


> I watched a good chunk of that latest one I posted.
> I don't know how that particular state defines 2nd and 3rd degree murder, or manslaughter, but I did not see any intent to kill the man.
> What I did see were several officers failing to render aid to an obviously unconscious individual, in spite of his actions that lead to his current state.
> Depending on the definitions of the crimes Chauvin is charged with, he could be convicted, or he could be acquitted.
> ...


Other cops have testified that Chauvin's conduct was not right.
I was trained on the choke hold. That I was trained to use the choke hold didn't mean I could choke someone until they were dead. In the same manner, I was trained in pressure point control techniques but that doesn't mean I was allowed to use them as torture, no matter how much I sometimes wanted to do that!


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Chauvin, in the case of George Floyd, is guilty of nothing more than the stupidity of working for the Minneapolis Police Department. Anyone who believes otherwise is guilty of being incapable of critical thinking.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Denton said:


> Yup. Floyd was losing it.
> 
> Other cops have testified that Chauvin's conduct was not right.
> I was trained on the choke hold. That I was trained to use the choke hold didn't mean I could choke someone until they were dead. In the same manner, I was trained in pressure point control techniques but that doesn't mean I was allowed to use them as torture, no matter how much I sometimes wanted to do that!


Well then, it is a damn good thing then that Chauvin did not choke anyone in this case, isn't it?


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Just to throw fuel on the fuel on the fire, has anyone else noted Floyd was _pulled out of a car_, then when he was asked to sit in a patrol car he claimed to be claustrophobic?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Yup. Floyd was losing it.
> 
> Other cops have testified that Chauvin's conduct was not right.
> I was trained on the choke hold. That I was trained to use the choke hold didn't mean I could choke someone until they were dead. In the same manner, I was trained in pressure point control techniques but that doesn't mean I was allowed to use them as torture, no matter how much I sometimes wanted to do that!


His conduct may have indeed been poor.
However, no evidence has been presented to indicate any choking took place to restrain Floyd.
Asphyxiation from choking generally, but not always, results in indicators appearing in the eyes of the victim.
As the medical examiner noted:
"The irides are brown, and the pupils are round and equal in diameter. The conjunctivae are somewhat injected, but there are no bulbar or palpebral conjunctival petechiae."
That term, "conjunctival petechiae", refers to an indicator present in the majority of asphyxiation cases where pressure is applied via vascular obstruction(according to what I found online).

There no evidence yet presented that the knee to the neck caused any form of airway blockage or breathing issues.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

stevekozak said:


> Well then, it is a damn good thing then that Chauvin did not choke anyone in this case, isn't it?


L.A. County did away with the choke hold in the 80s. As it turned out, Black folks' carotid arteries didn't always open up after the hold was applied. The choke hold isn't really choking but a closing of the carotid arteries. 
The knee to the side of the neck is basically the same thing. Once the individual is restrained, such applications must be released and medical concerns are paramount, afterward.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> His conduct may have indeed been poor.
> However, no evidence has been presented to indicate any choking took place to restrain Floyd.
> Asphyxiation from choking generally, but not always, results in indicators appearing in the eyes of the victim.
> As the medical examiner noted:
> ...


See my statement above this one.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> See my statement above this one.


Noted, but see mine that you quoted...
"Vascular obstruction" is the general cause for the indicators found in the eyes of asphyxiated victims.
No such indicator was found on Floyd that would indicate his carotid was closed for any period of time.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Noted, but see mine that you quoted...
> "Vascular obstruction" is the general cause for the indicators found in the eyes of asphyxiated victims.
> No such indicator was found on Floyd that would indicate his carotid was closed for any period of time.


I disagree. 
Part of the training was to "choke" each other out. None of us incurred petechiae. 
Clearly, Floyd was talking, so there wasn't enough pressure or trauma to cause petechiae or even bruising, from what I've read about the incident. That doesn't mean it didn't stop the flow of blood. The mere stopping of the blood flow doesn't cause petechiae.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> I disagree.
> Part of the training was to "choke" each other out. None of us incurred petechiae.
> Clearly, Floyd was talking, so there wasn't enough pressure or trauma to cause petechiae or even bruising, from what I've read about the incident. That doesn't mean it didn't stop the flow of blood. The mere stopping of the blood flow doesn't cause petechiae.


You didn't die from it.
This is an indicator found in people who died from this vascular pressure.

The only case I'm making is, there is no indication that Chauvin caused Floyd's death.
He did, however, fail to render aid to a man who obviously fell unconscious and unresponsive.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> You didn't die from it.
> This is an indicator found in people who died from this vascular pressure.
> 
> The only case I'm making is, there is no indication that Chauvin caused Floyd's death.
> He did, however, fail to render aid to a man who obviously fell unconscious and unresponsive.


You don't have to die to have it.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> You didn't die from it.
> This is an indicator found in people who died from this vascular pressure.
> 
> The only case I'm making is, there is no indication that Chauvin caused Floyd's death.
> He did, however, fail to render aid to a man who obviously fell unconscious and unresponsive.


You and I do not know if the knee caused or enhanced his chances of death. I am simply saying what I know to be factual.
As far as preventing the individual from getting medical treatment, that is premeditated homicide. I don't believe that. I'm thinking manslaughter. I'm also thinking there's going to be mayhem after that verdict.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> You don't have to die to have it.


Like I said, that's what I found from my research after reading that portion of the medical examiner's report.
A study I found mentioned a 78% ratio of finding that indicator in people who died from asphyxiation, so it's a pretty good indicator one way or another.

You are correct that we don't know if the knee progressed his death, but from the evidence provided, we cannot say that it did beyond a reasonable doubt.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Like I said, that's what I found from my research after reading that portion of the medical examiner's report.
> A study I found mentioned a 78% ratio of finding that indicator in people who died from asphyxiation, so it's a pretty good indicator one way or another.
> 
> You are correct that we don't know if the knee progressed his death, but from the evidence provided, we cannot say that it did beyond a reasonable doubt.


The heck? How did it post this before I could type? Obviously, this is edited.

Anyway, we can't say that it didn't lead to his death.
In earlier post I made it clear that yes, there are tactics that are legal, but only within the boundaries prescribed. Stopping or slowing the flow of blood to the brain for nearly ten minutes is not within those boundaries. Any decent human would have known better.
Furthermore, any cop who has made it beyond 90 days knows that drug users lie. "Are you on drugs?" "No!" He's on drugs. That means he is already in a medical emergency, nowadays.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Armchair quarterbacking. We weren't there. What I saw was uncalled for but again, I wasn't there.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> Did you see the bodycam footage?
> They did get him in, and were more than cordial to his distress, saying they would lower a window and stay with him.
> He would not cooperate, and was eventually pulled from the vehicle out the other side, and taken to the ground.


 That is worse.. they had him in the vehicle and then took him out. why by all that is sane would you decide to go a round 2 with him.. let him bang his head, yell scream curse... he is in the vehicle


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

inceptor said:


> Armchair quarterbacking. .......


Isn't that what courts are for?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Stopping or slowing the flow of blood to the brain for nearly ten minutes is not within those boundaries. Any decent human would have known better.


There has been no evidence presented that would lead us to believe any blood to the brain was stopped or slowed.
All we know is that he put his knee on Floyd. The effects of this have only been shown to have not caused trauma of any discernable kind.

These jurors must believe that Chauvin caused harm beyond reasonable doubt. The evidence doesn't yet support that he did.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> That is worse.. they had him in the vehicle and then took him out. why by all that is sane would you decide to go a round 2 with him.. let him bang his head, yell scream curse... he is in the vehicle


In a follow-up reply, I corrected the account.
Mr. Floyd ejected himself from the vehicle upon getting his feet in. The officers then tried to get him back in the car for a few minutes before eventually bringing him to the ground.
I've provided the body cam footage supporting this. Please have a look, and let me know if you interpret the events differently.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

This all is very interesting. Somewhat insane, but interesting none-the-less.

I vote NOT GUILTY


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Denton said:


> I've said it since this hit the news; there's no way I would have ever done that to someone who is cuffed and on the ground. Chauvin deserves time behind bars.


Again spoken Mr. Floyd was a dead man walking.

And yes, I know of what I speak.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> That is worse.. they had him in the vehicle and then took him out. why by all that is sane would you decide to go a round 2 with him.. let him bang his head, yell scream curse... he is in the vehicle


Again, perhaps one ought to review the actual events. Mr. Floyd fought the officers trying to place him in the back of the Cruiser. Mr. Floyd asked the Officer's to place him on the ground. The Officers had requested a transport van to take Mr. Floyd to booking. Mr. Floyd can be heard talking very clearly right up until he goes unconcious. He's is by definition not having any difficulty breathing. And from what small segments of the video I've been able to locate. the Officer's knee does not come in contact with Mr Floyd until he tries to get up. 

Mr. Floyd brought about his own demise. It is sad that he is no longer with us. but crucifying officers for doing the job that you who are not willing to do using the tools and training that your municipalites have given them is unjustified.

If I were a le officer in your jurisdiction I'd seriously consider going else where as you don't deserve their services


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

What was Mr Floyd going to do with his head that required a knee on the neck but still allowed the officer to have his hands in his pockets like he was waiting on a sanwich in line at subway ?????

This is a conflict. It’s very damaging IMO. It tells me the man is not really struggling snd the officer is making a statement. “ look at what I can do “


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

As Col. Jeff Cooper used to say, there is a "Good Riddance factor". Yes, people that behave like him were someone's brother, uncle, father, son, but now they cannot inflict pain and misery to the public anymore.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

The MPD's own training material clearly depicts the "knee on neck" restraint. (page 26)


https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Exhibit67807072020.pdf


It is generally combined with a leg hobble restraint to result in the "Maximal Restraint Technique", and you can see the hobble device was retrieved and held in hand by the officer closer to Floyd's legs, but was never applied.

Chauvin was a 20 year veteran on the job. He wasn't just some hot head looking to kill someone.
His failure was not following through with the "recovery position" described in the training.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Yes, Chauvin was applying the “ maximal restraint technique “

That’s where the officer nonchalantly puts his hands in his pockets while kneeling on the neck of the prisoner that’s in handcuffs and unconscious, while a crowd is yelling “ you’re killing him, check his pulse “

I’d call that “ maximal restraint “

Textbook police work, by the book I’m sure.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

It's fine to not like his posture. The point is, the restraint is taught.
It will be a tough sell to claim he was "a depraved mind" about it with 20 years of service behind him, and from the charges brought against him, no other felony was included.
Murder is likely completely off the table.
Manslaughter is the likely guilty verdict, for reasons I've addressed previously.


----------



## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

It’s also taught that when a prisoner losses consciousness that you immediately call for EMS. 

The crowd could see the man was unconscious from the sidewalk. The police officer couldn’t ?

I’d convict him of murder unless a Dr could convince me otherwise.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Fair enough.
Of the two murder charges against him, which I've provided the criminal definitions for(here), which do you believe applies and why?
I know you don't like reading long posts, so my apologies in advance.


----------



## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Oh I’m not sure. I’m sure I’d pick one though. Unless a Dr could convince me different.

I feel like Chauvin knew based off his training that he could potentially kill Mr Floyd, was warned by bystanders that he was in fact killing him, the prisoner was in handcuffs and unconscious yet officer Chauvin continued the knee to the neck.

That, combined with a Dr testify that the knee most likely killed Floyd would seal the deal for me. Murder of some flavor.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Did a doctor testify to that effect?
I've not been following close enough to see all of the witness testimony.
The medical examiner said there was no trauma found to the neck. That's all I know on that topic.
The crowd's exhortations are irrelevant. An officer does not conduct himself based on the crowd's wishes or interpretations of the scene.


----------



## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Kauboy said:


> Did a doctor testify to that effect?
> I've not been following close enough to see all of the witness testimony.
> The medical examiner said there was no trauma found to the neck. That's all I know on that topic.
> The crowd's exhortations are irrelevant. An officer does not conduct himself based on the crowd's wishes or interpretations of the scene.


I’m not sure if a Dr has testified to that effect.

If I’m on the jury I could and would take the warnings given by the crowd into account.
The video is evidence, it’s all admissible.

That video is very damning. That’s probably why there’s even a trial, the video. Regardless of what killed Mr Floyd.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Ranger710Tango said:


> That video is very damning. That’s probably why there’s even a trial, the video. Regardless of what killed Mr Floyd.


Agreed.
If the body cam was released first, that witness perspective would be less damning.
But the whole world saw the evil white cop murder the innocent black man for weeks before any alternate perspective was leaked.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Ranger710Tango said:


> Oh I’m not sure. I’m sure I’d pick one though. Unless a Dr could convince me different.


Concerning this POV, would you not follow the judge's instructions to consider the accused innocent until proven guilty?
Our justice system is built on this premise. It is the burden of the state to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty of the charge.
That being the case, could you be an unbiased juror?
It's perfectly fair to say you couldn't. I'm not sure I could in this case.


----------



## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Kauboy said:


> Concerning this POV, would you not follow the judge's instructions to consider the accused innocent until proven guilty?
> Our justice system is built on this premise. It is the burden of the state to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty of the charge.
> That being the case, could you be an unbiased juror?
> It's perfectly fair to say you couldn't. I'm not sure I could in this case.


Sure, innocent until proven guilty. Of course.
Yes, unbiased that’s why I would rely on the evidence and all the evidence I’ve seen shows me he’s guilty of murder. 

Until I see other evidence, that’s what I’m rolling with.

If I were on the jury we wouldn’t be having this conversation.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Unless a Dr. says so? How about Fauci?


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Ranger710Tango said:


> Oh I’m not sure. I’m sure I’d pick one though. Unless a Dr could convince me different.
> 
> *I feel* like Chauvin knew based off his training that he could potentially kill Mr Floyd, was warned by bystanders that he was in fact killing him, the prisoner was in handcuffs and unconscious yet officer Chauvin continued the knee to the neck.
> 
> That, combined with a Dr testify that the knee most likely killed Floyd would seal the deal for me. Murder of some flavor.


No one gives two shizzles about your moronic sissy feelings. The justice system is not meant to be set up to express feelings. It is meant to operate on facts and evidence. You can put your asinine snowflake feelings back in the pocket of your Strawberry Shortcake skirt, Cupcake, and leave the thinking to people who are actually capable of it. No one killed George Floyd other than George Floyd.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Ranger710Tango said:


> I’m not sure if a Dr has testified to that effect.
> 
> If I’m on the jury I could and would take the warnings given by the crowd into account.
> The video is evidence, it’s all admissible.
> ...


Yeah...lets listen to the crowd.... The crowd whose frequent opinion is that the perpetrator "din do nuffin". Yeah, let's listen to those paragons of intellect......


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Excellent debate! Here is another topic to discuss...

The world is a better place with George Floyd dead. 

Agree or Disagree?


----------



## Any Beastie (Mar 19, 2021)

Slippy said:


> Excellent debate! Here is another topic to discuss...
> 
> The world is a better place with George Floyd dead.
> 
> Agree or Disagree?


And just like that everyone shuts up. 🥳 

I have no personal knowledge of the man and every piece on his character is so agenda filled that I have no idea if the world is a better place with or without him. I do not think he was any upstanding Mr. Mayor but I don't know if he was a major criminal or if he beat up his family either. I think the effect of his death made the world a worse place as it enabled the left to push their Marxist fascist agenda farther. And burn down a few cities. But hey who needs cities anyways?🤷‍♀️


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

You mess with the bull, you get the horn.

You made your bed, now lie in it.

You reap what you sow.

I'm all for let's just hit bottom and go from there. This piecemeal stuff just prolongs the anguish.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

stevekozak said:


> No one gives two shizzles about your moronic sissy feelings. The justice system is not meant to be set up to express feelings. It is meant to operate on facts and evidence. You can put your asinine snowflake feelings back in the pocket of your Strawberry Shortcake skirt, Cupcake, and leave the thinking to people who are actually capable of it. No one killed George Floyd other than George Floyd.


I’d convict the police officer if I was on the jury.

I don’t care if you feel that’s not legit.

Your feelings don’t matter when I’m on the jury.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

stevekozak said:


> Yeah...lets listen to the crowd.... The crowd whose frequent opinion is that the perpetrator "din do nuffin". Yeah, let's listen to those paragons of intellect......


There was an EMS professional standing there on the sidewalk yelling at them to “ check his pulse he’s unconscious “ 

The crowd was begging them to “ check his pulse “ of a man that was in custody and unconscious.

The police crossed the line from law enforcement to criminal act. They must be held accountable.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

1skrewsloose said:


> Unless a Dr. says so? How about Fauci?


Probably, I’d take his word over the cops.


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

I wouldn't take Fauci's word the sun rises in the east.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

1skrewsloose said:


> You mess with the bull, you get the horn.
> 
> You made your bed, now lie in it.
> 
> ...


Thats how I feel about it.

The cop made his bed, now he can lie in it.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Ranger710Tango said:


> Sure, innocent until proven guilty. Of course.
> Yes, unbiased that’s why I would rely on the evidence and all the evidence I’ve seen shows me he’s guilty of murder.
> 
> Until I see other evidence, that’s what I’m rolling with.
> ...


Good, good.
So long as your verdict is based on the evidence as you see it, what more can be asked?
And yes, I'm aware we wouldn't be talking. That's not pertinent to this discussion in the least.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Kauboy said:


> Good, good.
> So long as your verdict is based on the evidence as you see it, what more can be asked?
> And yes, I'm aware we wouldn't be talking. That's not pertinent to this discussion in the least.


Ok well you’re asking me if I’d follow the judges rules and I’m telling you I would.

If that’s pertinent to the conversation then I guess we can continue.

Just let me know if I’m still on the jury when you ask me questions.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Ranger710Tango said:


> Ok well you’re asking me if I’d follow the judges rules and I’m telling you I would.
> 
> If that’s pertinent to the conversation then I guess we can continue.
> 
> Just let me know if I’m still on the jury when you ask me questions.


It was a question to see if you can be an unbiased juror; if you could apply critical thinking, or just follow your own whims.
Would you give this man a fair trial, or go in with a preconceived guilty verdict "unless a Dr. convinced you otherwise."
There was no implication of you actually being on the jury.
Sheesh.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Kauboy said:


> It was a question to see if you can be an unbiased juror; if you could apply critical thinking, or just follow your own whims.
> Would you give this man a fair trial, or go in with a preconceived guilty verdict "unless a Dr. convinced you otherwise."
> There was no implication of you actually being on the jury.
> Sheesh.


Based on the evidence I’ve seen a Dr would have to convince me with evidence that the knee didn’t kill Mr Floyd.


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Hmmmmmm




Ranger710Tango said:


> Based on the evidence I’ve seen a Dr would have to convince me with evidence that the knee didn’t kill Mr Floyd.


Have you seen this yet?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379184734027276293
Derek Chauvin's defense counsel Eric Nelson introduces the concept of "camera perspective bias." Minneapolis Police Chief Arradondo agrees Chauvin's knee looks like it's on Floyd's neck in the bystander video, but appears to be on his "shoulder blade" in the body-cam video. 

“Would you agree that from the perspective of Officer Kueng’s body camera it appeared Officer Chauvin’s knee was more on Mr. Floyd’s shoulder blade?” Nelson asked Arradondo.
“Yes,” Arradondo responded.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

I haven’t seen all the evidence yet. But based off what I’ve seen so far I would convict. 

So far that’s how I’m leaning. What the Dr’s said would have a huge part of my decision. 

I don’t believe the officers adhered to their training. I think the police chief testified to that.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Kauboy said:


> It was a question to see if you can be an unbiased juror; if you could apply critical thinking, or just follow your own whims.
> Would you give this man a fair trial, or go in with a preconceived guilty verdict "unless a Dr. convinced you otherwise."
> There was no implication of you actually being on the jury.
> Sheesh.


You asked questions then gave a lecture as what my answer should be and why. 

So it was more of a way to make a statement than it was a question at that point.

I’m not playing favorites, I don’t like drug addicts, counterfeiting or cops......


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Ranger710Tango said:


> You asked questions then gave a lecture as what my answer should be.
> 
> So it was more of a way to make a statement than it was a question at that point.


I was a way to determine if you are being fair in this discussion.
Since you off-handedly said you'd apply a murder conviction without actually considering if any of the definitions apply, I wanted to dig a bit deeper.
If you can be an impartial juror, I can at least assume you're being an impartial participant in this discussion.
But if you can't be, then I would know from where your perspectives lie. That is all.
That isn't to say that you _must_ be impartial in this discussion.

From what I gathered, you are indeed impartial, and as of now, believe he is guilty.



Ranger710Tango said:


> I haven’t seen all the evidence yet. But based off what I’ve seen so far I would convict.
> 
> So far that’s how I’m leaning. What the Dr’s said would have a huge part of my decision.
> 
> I don’t believe the officers adhered to their training. I think the police chief testified to that.


The police chief that testified about the training is the same man who Robie's post shows is stating that one camera view appears to show Chauvin's knee on Floyd's shoulder blade.
Along with the training material clearly showing this technique is included, I'm not sure if the police chief's testimony one way or the other can be trusted. He lied about the training.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

They’re trained that if the prisoner losses consciousness that they immediately render aid. 

That wasn’t followed.


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## Black 5 (Apr 6, 2020)

This basically comes down to if the judge and jury fear mob reaction. If he isn't found guilty, Minneapolis burns. If he is found guilty of less than murder, Minneapolis burns. If he's found guilty but doesn't get maximum sentence, Minneapolis burns.

If he's found guilty of murder, sentenced to the maximum penalty, Minneapolis burns because they need to celebrate.

Only a fool thinks this will be a fair, unbiased trial.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Ranger710Tango said:


> They’re trained that if the prisoner losses consciousness that they immediately render aid.
> 
> That wasn’t followed.


Absolutely correct!
Which meets the criminal definition of 2nd degree manslaughter.
I don't yet see how it meets the definition for murder, but additional evidence could sway me.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

If I were on the jury we wouldn’t be having this conversation. You got me wrong on post #72, Druggie made his bed.
Were you sent here to see how many people would respond to your tree-hugging panty-waist touch-hole posts to find out how many could be banned? You need to step up your game!

btw, you'd never have made it to 1st base at getting a spot on the jury.


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Ranger710Tango said:


> I’m not playing favorites, I don’t like drug addicts, counterfeiting or cops......


Thankfully, you'd never be selected for a jury involving a cop case.


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

The day things are decided because of possible crowd reaction is the day we all can pretty much throw in the towel on justice...judges and juries.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

The crowd was informing a police officer a crime was being committed. 

Just so happens that the cops they informed were the perpetrators of the crime.


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## bsemler (Mar 6, 2018)

His toxicology came back he was high on fentanyl,meth and caffeine,even before they got him out of the car he already started saying he couldn't breath the judge and attorneys said in video he had something in his mouth and swallowed it.cops tried to reason and help him later in the video he was on the ground it was proven he didn't die from the knee and more time in video he had is knee on his back more than the neck.he was trained like that. chauvin not going get murder charge he might get man slaughter


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

bsemler said:


> ...the judge and attorneys said in video he had something in his mouth and swallowed it.


I've seen this mentioned a few times. Can you link the video concerning this bit of testimony?


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## bsemler (Mar 6, 2018)

He also blocked arteries and bad heart and had coronavirus and has soon they got him out he went 0 to 100. This autopsy and so forth I cant the video I mentioned but found another will try to load it 








Medical Examiner's Autopsy Reveals George Floyd Had Positive Test For Coronavirus


The 20-page report released Wednesday shows that Floyd tested positive for the virus in early April. It also confirmed fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system at the time of death.




www.npr.org


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## Tanya49! (Jun 20, 2020)

ER doctor theorized heart stopped due to lack of oxygen. Coroner said no damage to neck or surrounding areas.Fentanyl and bad heart, sounds like reasonable doubt to me ( not guilty). Bring that trial down hear to gods country.


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Floyd's blood and urine analysis.

Yeah, it was a knee on his shoulder blade that caused his demise.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

bsemler said:


> He also blocked arteries and bad heart and had coronavirus and has soon they got him out he went 0 to 100. This autopsy and so forth I cant the video I mentioned but found another will try to load it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From everything I can find, the mention of putting something in his mouth and swallowing it was from a previous arrest in 2019 where he did swallow drugs in order to conceal them when being approached by officers.
During that arrest, he also began to cry and act irrationally. Eventually he was placed in an ambulance and taken to the hospital where he was treated for an overdose.
Record of that arrest was entered as evidence in this case. That's how it came up.
There is no indication that Floyd swallowed anything during this arrest.


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

According to KTVU attorney Earl Gray, who is representing former officer Thomas Lane, alleged in a new court filing that Floyd overdosed on fentanyl while resisting arrest on May 25. He claims Floyd somehow managed to swallow the drugs while the cops were taking him into custody.

Gray claims that according to body cam footage, there was a white spot on Floyd’s tongue that disappeared, and it looked like “2 milligrams of fentanyl, a lethal dose.” 
The court docs also read, “All he had to do is sit in the police car, like every other defendant who is initially arrested. While attempting to avoid his arrest, all by himself, Mr. Floyd overdosed on fentanyl. Given his intoxication level, breathing would have been difficult at best. Mr. Floyd’s intentional failure to obey commands, coupled with his overdosing, contributed to his own death."









Attorney For Cop Charged In George Floyd Death Claims He Overdosed On Fentanyl


The lawyer for Thomas Lane is arguing the 46-year-old swallowed drugs.




www.bet.com


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Robie said:


> According to KTVU attorney Earl Gray, who is representing former officer Thomas Lane, alleged in a new court filing that Floyd overdosed on fentanyl while resisting arrest on May 25. He claims Floyd somehow managed to swallow the drugs while the cops were taking him into custody.
> 
> Gray claims that according to body cam footage, there was a white spot on Floyd’s tongue that disappeared, and it looked like “2 milligrams of fentanyl, a lethal dose.”
> The court docs also read, “All he had to do is sit in the police car, like every other defendant who is initially arrested. While attempting to avoid his arrest, all by himself, Mr. Floyd overdosed on fentanyl. Given his intoxication level, breathing would have been difficult at best. Mr. Floyd’s intentional failure to obey commands, coupled with his overdosing, contributed to his own death."
> ...


Thanks!
It will be interesting to see if Chauvin's case will include this information.
It would only served to strengthen their proposal that Floyd died due to the drugs in his system.


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## jchavasu (Aug 13, 2016)

Ranger710Tango said:


> What was Mr Floyd going to do with his head that required a knee on the neck but still allowed the officer to have his hands in his pockets like he was waiting on a sanwich in line at subway ?????
> 
> This is a conflict. It’s very damaging IMO. It tells me the man is not really struggling snd the officer is making a statement. “ look at what I can do “


If you look closely you will see his hands weren’t in his pockets. He’s wearing gloves that blend in with his pants as he had his hands on his thighs. You can debate whether having his hands on his thighs is damning but the pockets thing is inaccurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

jchavasu said:


> If you look closely you will see his hands weren’t in his pockets. He’s wearing gloves that blend in with his pants as he had his hands on his thighs. You can debate whether having his hands on his thighs is damning but the pockets thing is inaccurate.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here’s one pic showing his left hand in his pocket with the knee on Mr Floyds neck while Mr Floyd was handcuffed.

Mr Floyd lost consciousness and the officer did not render aid, but rather kept the knee on the neck. 

Witnesses repeatedly begged the officers to “ check his pulse, he’s dying”

Mr Floyd subsequently died. 

Now we get to have a trial because a dumbass cop didn’t follow his training and render aid.


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Ranger710Tango said:


> View attachment 113421
> 
> 
> Here’s one pic showing his left hand in his pocket with the knee on Mr Floyds neck while Mr Floyd was handcuffed.
> ...


You would be comfortable in a country where it's guilty until proven innocent.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Robie said:


> You would be comfortable in a country where it's guilty until proven innocent.


It’s not about me. It’s about the evidence, we are discussing a trial and the evidence that’s been presented. 

Are you some how emotionally attached to this case ? I’m not.

If the evidence shows that Chauvin didn’t kill Mr Floyd then Im fine with a not guilty.

Any verdict is fine with me, I’m not on the jury. 👍.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Hand was not in pocket: (navy pants, black glove)









Goes to show that even picture evidence can be misleading.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

I still see his hand in his pocket.

But as long as the jury can clearly see what’s happening, that’s all that matters


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## jchavasu (Aug 13, 2016)

Ranger710Tango said:


> View attachment 113421
> 
> 
> Here’s one pic showing his left hand in his pocket with the knee on Mr Floyds neck while Mr Floyd was handcuffed.


Same screen grab I have seen. I don’t have the capabilities on my phone to do it as well, but in Photoshop I enhanced it and it’s clear it’s a glove and his hand isn’t in his pocket. This isn’t as clear of course.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Robie said:


> Floyd's blood and urine analysis.
> 
> Yeah, it was a knee on his shoulder blade that caused his demise.
> 
> View attachment 113420


He had standards. He drew the line at cocaine and heroin.


Robie said:


> Floyd's blood and urine analysis.
> 
> Yeah, it was a knee on his shoulder blade that caused his demise.
> 
> View attachment 113420


Floyd had moral standards. He drew the line at cocaine and heroin.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

As can be seen in Chauvin's own body cam footage, he put on and was wearing black gloves with the word "HARDY" in grey lettering across the back of them.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/03/31/derek-chauvin-trial-live/



This lighter colored lettering is discernable in my brighter, more contrasted photo provided earlier, as well as in @jchavasu's version.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

This has turned into a lively debate, and I didn’t expect that: but I am glad that people have stated their views. I don’t know what the verdict will be: he may be found guilty, or not guilty. 

I made a guess as to what the verdict will be, back early in this post, so I will leave it at that.

But no trial should ever be kidnapped, by fears of violence. But this trial is being being held hostage to implied riots, if the officer is found not guilty. That is evil.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

The world is a much better place now that Floyd is dead. Can we please get back on topic?

Thanks

Slippy!


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I can't choose just one, get rid of them all, they're not smart enough to find the DL number on their license!

They all look the same to me anyhow.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

1skrewsloose said:


> I can't choose just one, get rid of them all, they're not smart enough to find the DL number on their license!
> 
> They all look the same to me anyhow.


Excuse me?
Care to clarify?
I would urge you to be... diplomatic.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Slippy said:


> The world is a much better place now that Floyd is dead. Can we please get back on topic?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Slippy!


That he is dead is not the topic. Whether or not the human died because of the negligence, or worse, of a member of a law enforcement member is the topic.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Slippy said:


> The world is a much better place now that Floyd is dead. Can we please get back on topic?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Slippy!


Slippy you are fighting a losing battle. Better to grab a 54 Romeo y Julietta, a tall mint Julip, Kick your feet up and enjoy the nice spring weather


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Slippy said:


> The world is a much better place now that Floyd is dead. Can we please get back on topic?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Slippy!


You would not want to die like that, with a cops knee on your neck, and neither would anyone else.
The question is one of human dignity, even if it’s a criminal human, it’s just that simple. This is America, not Russia.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

MisterMills357 said:


> You would not want to die like that, with a cops knee on your neck, and neither would anyone else.
> The question is one of human dignity, even if it’s a criminal human, it’s just that simple. This is America, not Russia.


We all set in motion the circumstances that surround our death. In Mr. Floyd's case all he needed to do was to tell anyone of the officers that he'd taken Meth and Fent and they'd have gotten the Narcan that would (and the only thing that would have) saved his life.

And it's not like the dangers of Fent use are not known by the general public.


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## jchavasu (Aug 13, 2016)

MisterMills357 said:


> You would not want to die like that, with a cops knee on your neck, and neither would anyone else.
> The question is one of human dignity, even if it’s a criminal human, it’s just that simple. This is America, not Russia.


I wouldn’t want to die of an overdose either. So I don’t take drugs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Real Old Man said:


> We all set in motion the circumstances that surround our death. In Mr. Floyd's case all he needed to do was to tell anyone of the officers that he'd taken Meth and Fent and they'd have gotten the Narcan that would (and the only thing that would have) saved his life.
> 
> And it's not like the dangers of Fent use are not known by the general public.


I didn't know about the dangers but I haven't been around drugs since the early 70's.

But there's an old saying here. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Take it for what it's worth, or don't, but Steven Crowder simulated the scenario (sans overdose) to see what effects this restraint would have.
I've added the video here, and it should be cue'd up to just before he starts (~1:11:00 mark):
We'll see how long it stays online...

UPDATED: They actually trimmed it out and posted it by itself. Here's that 16 minute video:
(removed by request)
(can be easily found on YT under the user "CrowderBits")

EDIT:
Crap...
Gotta tattle on myself. Just hit the point where Steven partially quotes a bystander witness, and drops an f-bomb.
I don't want special treatment. I'll take it down at the first request.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Real Old Man said:


> We all set in motion the circumstances that surround our death. In Mr. Floyd's case all he needed to do was to tell anyone of the officers that he'd taken Meth and Fent and they'd have gotten the Narcan that would (and the only thing that would have) saved his life.
> 
> And it's not like the dangers of Fent use are not known by the general public.


I don’t think that the jury, is going to wear themselves out about Narcan. It will consider that video in its deliberations though.

And how is it that we all set in motion, the circumstances of our own deaths? That is over-reaching things.
Unless you are generalizing about mister Floyd & meth.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Denton said:


> That he is dead is not the topic. Whether or not the human died because of the negligence, or worse, of a member of a law enforcement member is the topic.


Thank you Denton, that is the subject at hand. Was it negligence, or was it something else; was it wanton?
Was it done without regard for human life? That is up to the jury to decide.


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## Pobilly Duke (May 9, 2020)

MisterMills357 said:


> I don’t think that the jury, is going to wear themselves out about Narcan. It will consider that video in its deliberations though.
> 
> And how is it that we all set in motion, the circumstances of our own deaths? That is over-reaching things.
> Unless you are generalizing about mister Floyd & meth.


I took it as the old Mantra describes
"You live by the sword, You die by the sword."
Conduct risky business, expect risky result......


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## 2020 Convert (Dec 24, 2020)

I worked “in the hood” during the OJ trial. Even this conversation goes both ways, just like then.

I got out of the hood, just before the verdict of the OJ trial, got chewed out by my boss for doing it too. 
I wouldn’t be in any city in the country when this verdict comes out. Already BLM videos up on how things are going to burn. 

Being prepared is what this forum is about, it’s time to be...........


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> Thank you Denton, that is the subject at hand. Was it negligence, or was it something else; was it wanton?
> Was it done without regard for human life? That is up to the jury to decide.


I really can't believe it was wanton.
I certainly don't know, but I think Chauvin didn't think Floyd was in physical distress. I know that perps lie. All they want to do is get out of the situation. Heck, just pulling over a speeder will turn the person into a liar. I get it.
Floyd looked like he was in good shape but muscles are deceiving.

He should have known better. Floyd's legs should have been restrained, he was already handcuffed and Chauvin should have gotten off him while they waited for the van. Narcan should have been administered because they knew he was lying about drug usage. After all, Floyd wasn't the first person on drugs that Chauvin encountered and he knew the signs.

I don't know if Floyd would have lasted 24 hours had he not had an encounter with Chauvin, but Floyd's stupidity is not on trial; Chauvin's actions are.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Keep in mind, Chauvin only arrived for the struggle to get Floyd into the SUV and the aftermath. He wasn't involved in the initial interaction, or present for the denial of being on any drugs.
Unfortunately, he only showed up for the physical stuff.


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## Any Beastie (Mar 19, 2021)

Now if we consider this manslaughter, do you think it had to do with race?


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## Robie (Jun 2, 2016)

Denton said:


> I don't know if Floyd would have lasted 24 hours had he not had an encounter with Chauvin, but Floyd's stupidity is not on trial; Chauvin's actions are.



Let's be realistic. 
If his knee was nowhere near his neck, and he died 24 hours later in the hospital, the riots would have ensued.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Any Beastie said:


> Now if we consider this manslaughter, do you think it had to do with race?


Everything has to do with race. What you have for breakfast could make you a white supremacist.

I was surprised to find out that Candice Owens is a white supremacist.


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## Any Beastie (Mar 19, 2021)

inceptor said:


> I was surprised to find out that Candice Owens is a white supremacist.


Right on.
And Ben Shapiro is a Nazi.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Speaking of Ben Shapiro, I watched his daily show today and he brought to my attention evidence presented in the courtroom that is not being reported anywhere.
Apparently, months after the altercation with Mr. Floyd, investigators went back to the SUV in which he was originally placed, and found partially chewed pills in the backseat.
The pills consisted of fentanyl and methamphetamine. The pills had Mr. Floyd's DNA on them.
How and when the pills came to be in the SUV is not yet known, but it does introduce reasonable doubt about what killed Mr. Floyd. If he ingested other pills of the same substance, that could explain the 3.5x lethal dose of fentanyl in his system.

A summary of the witness cross examination covering this point can be found here:


> Also on the topic of fentanyl, Tobin insisted that fentanyl made people sleepy, even unconscious, when it killed via overdose, and Floyd had after all just been fighting police. In response Nelson brought up the pill fragments found in the squad car, the pills that were found to consist of fentanyl and meth, covered in Floyd’s DNA.
> If Floyd had consumed the pills in the squad car immediately before being proned on the street, wouldn’t we expect it to take some five minutes before the drugs reached peak effect? Yes, answered Tobin. And continue their effect after that point? Yes.
> This would coincide, of course, with that period of time in which Floyd was visibly slowing down and apparently losing consciousness.


(source: Chauvin Trial Day 9 Wrap-Up: Medical Experts Resuscitate Prosecution Case)

The defense only needs to show "reasonable doubt", and from the way things have gone the past 3 days, they're doing a good job by Mr. Chauvin.
And they haven't even formally started their defense yet. This has all been from cross examination of the prosecution's witnesses.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

At the end of the day Floyd was a dumbass dead man walking. A drug addict with a several strikes against him who was going to be dead one way or the other. Was the cop over zealous? Perhaps. Guilty of murder? Doubtful. Will there be riots regardless of outcome? Absolutely.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

inceptor said:


> Everything has to do with race. What you have for breakfast could make you a white supremacist.
> 
> I was surprised to find out that Candice Owens is a white supremacist.


Candace Owens is a damn cute white supremacist! That lady gets my motor revved. 


Also, and unrelated, but the smilie selection that we now have here sucks big hairy donkey balls!!! Canucks would fornicate up a wet dream!!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

That made me chuckle...


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Denton said:


> You are correct. It's easy to lose compassion when everyday you deal with people at their worst. The last L.E./C.J. stint I did was as a correctional officer at a state prison. I couldn't believe how many officers were bullies.
> 
> Regardless, the officer is responsible for the person once the person is cuffed and in custody.
> Other officers milled about while Chauvin had is knee on Floyd's neck. Why weren't they installing leg restraints?
> ...


I know some jail guards that will wish they were dead before my prayer days are over. I have asked God to avenge me, and He surely has, but I will never cease to plead my case against those pukes.

If and when anyone assaults me and pounds on me, they too will wish for death, and all I need to do is pray. I don’t play around, and it is stunning how little faith there is in prayer. That never will stop me, nothing will ever stop me.

There are facets of me that are terrors, and thugs only wish they had my authority. God gave it to me and I ain’t afraid to use it.😇


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