# Bird Flu in midwest



## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Most of you are probably already aware of the massive outbeak of avian flu in the midwest US and Candada. There are actually 3 strains involved, fortunately not the specific strain that is in Asia and has a 50% mortality rate in humans who become infected. The strains in the US are killing off (or causing the culling of) millions of birds. Expect you chicken and turkey prices to go up.

Here is my concern (and you can bet your bottom dollar the CDC is watching this like a hawk) - when the human flu starts coming around in Sept/Oct/Nov, there is a very real possibility this bird flu will mutate and become infective to humans. This happens when a person is already infected with one flu strain and then gets infected with another. The two strains have a little DNA swap party inside the host and a new influenza strain emerges. The new strain can combine the virulence of one strain and the species specificity of the other strain. (Highly virulent bird flu + human flu = Highly virulent human flu.) This is where massive outbreaks in the population can occur. A vaccine cannot be developed quickly enough when the strain develops in the US, rather than Asia where they usually come from.
Massive outbreaks = lots of economic implications as people cannot work. IF the new mutation also results in a particularly lethal strain, *then it's major SHTF. *So far there have not been any human contractions of the US strains, so I don't know if there is any way to determine how dangerous these particular strains are should they mutate and become infection to humans. As each generation of influenza passes through hosts, it can mutate up or mutate down, as far as virulence and mortality/morbidity goes.

This is a heads up to preppers. A really bad influenza (like 1918) can wipe out a population and bring society to a stand still very, very quickly. The only way to protect yourself and your family, should that happen, is to completely isolate yourselves with self imposed quarantine. That means no one goes in or out for possibly several months. Whole towns were able to protect themselves in this manner, while the rest of the country was dying. The only people who could come in where those who stayed outside the town in their own quarantine for two weeks without symptoms. NOW is the time to be sure you can handle several months of quarantine with your food, water, medical, and sanitation preps.

There may be no heads-up or early warning of an EMP or natural disaster, but I believe this avian influenza outbreak in our own backyard should serve as a warning of a possible SHTF situation, especially once the normal flu season starts. I hope a mutation doesn't happen, but if it does, please be ready. If history repeats itself, the more dangerous the situation, the more the government will try to downplay it. Keep a close eye on this one.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

These particular versions of avian flu does not bear the genes that make it likely to mutate into a high mortality (cytokine storm) variety, according to my reading.

Nonetheless, I'd be the last do downplay a major flu epidemic as a plausible scenario. Lots of people, lots of animals that bear compatible viruses, lots of mutation and transmission opportunities. 

If there's a better general safety prep than washing your hands pretty often when in public spaces, I don't know what it is.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Spice said:


> These particular versions of avian flu does not bear the genes that make it likely to mutate into a high mortality (cytokine storm) variety, according to my reading.
> 
> Nonetheless, I'd be the last do downplay a major flu epidemic as a plausible scenario. Lots of people, lots of animals that bear compatible viruses, lots of mutation and transmission opportunities.
> 
> If there's a better general safety prep than washing your hands pretty often when in public spaces, I don't know what it is.


The viruses are proving that they are indeed very virulent - to birds. Not to people at this point. I'm just saying that it bears close watching. especially since it is so close to home. A few bad mutations and it could be a very ugly scenario in our own back yard - not half way across the world..
There are 4 significant and proven ways to prevent the spread of influenza:

1) get vaccinated
2) wash your hands frequently and keep from touching your face, eyes, nose, mouth
3) cover all coughs and sneezes
4) social isolation: Don't sit next to sick people in the waiting room, stay out of congested places during flu season, avoid crowds, etc. In the worse case of a very bad pandemic flu that has high mortality, quarantine yourself.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I haven't heard anything about how this is spreading. Is it by wild birds such as geese and ducks, etc.?


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

paraquack said:


> I haven't heard anything about how this is spreading. Is it by wild birds such as geese and ducks, etc.?


Yes. They're investigating if people who worked on multiple farms might be a factor, but at least most of it is from wild waterfowl -- hence the explosion of cases when the northward migration occurred.


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## Sheepdog (Jul 22, 2013)

Thank you for the heads up. I don't watch the news much so hadn't heard of this. One of the few threats that can't be shut down with a bullet I'll be watching this..


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

RNprepper said:


> The viruses are proving that they are indeed very virulent - to birds. Not to people at this point. I'm just saying that it bears close watching. especially since it is so close to home. A few bad mutations and it could be a very ugly scenario in our own back yard - not half way across the world..
> There are 4 significant and proven ways to prevent the spread of influenza:
> 
> 1) get vaccinated
> ...


Besides prevention what is best to have on hand for secondary infections caused by bacteria?

Amoxicillin 250mg AND 500mg
Ciprofloxacin 250mg and 500mg 
Cephalexin 250mg and 500mg
Metronidazole 250mg
Doxycycline 100mg 
Ampicillin 250mg and 500mg 
Clindamycin 300mg 
Sulfamethoxazole 400mg/Trimethoprin 80mg 
Azithromycin 250mg

You can get the above from vet supply outlets. I keep doxy and cipro on hand already


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Antibiotics do not work on viruses, you need antiviral medicine like Tamiflu. Check out Dr. Altons video on bird flu.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

although alarming, and could present a possible problem how ever unlikely -I would think that in the fall when those birds return to migrating is when problems would occur at or a short time after the birds have finished flying south in the area they have migrated too -because this also the times when the human flu virus also mutates as infections are spread from one person to the next and the birds may be carrying both.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Medic33 said:


> although alarming, and could present a possible problem how ever unlikely -I would think that in the fall when those birds return to migrating is when problems would occur at or a short time after the birds have finished flying south in the area they have migrated too -because this also the times when the human flu virus also mutates as infections are spread from one person to the next and the birds may be carrying both.


Yes. Fall is the time to watch carefully. At this point, so many domestic birds are infected that the wild birds may be a moot point.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

Mutations in confined, high density animal populations being passed to their handlers, who pass it to everyone else...that sounds like every flu epidemic we've ever had.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Spice said:


> Mutations in confined, high density animal populations being passed to their handlers, who pass it to everyone else...that sounds like every flu epidemic we've ever had.


Yup. New flu strains often start in Asia where birds, pigs and people live in close proximity, giving the viruses multiple host choices. Watching Asian strains a year in advance, and predicting their mutations is how the decision is made of what strains to include in the annual flu shot. A virulent pandemic starting in the US, however, gives no time for vaccine development.

The pandemic of 1918 started in the mid US, and spread around the world, killing more people than WWI. With much faster travel now, a pandemic will be around the world in days once it reaches an international airport. I'm simply saying that this is worth watching once the 2015 flu season starts. And don't believe all the reassurances of the government. They don't want public panic and will minimize the risk. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I know how quickly something like this can overwhelm the healthcare system, shut down commerce, empty the grocery stores, and cause widespread chaos. Local governments do not want that. If this does start up as a human form, be very wary of the media/local government telling you to continue life as usual, such as attending church, concerts, parades, and public gatherings. This is exactly what they did in 1918. Even with people dying in the streets, the governments were still telling people there was nothing to worry about.

A pandemic flu that has a high mortality rate is the one SHTF scenario that scares me the most. I (and my prepper nurse friends) do not intend to get quarantined in a hospital that becomes overwhelmed with dying patients. This happened in Toronto with SARS, and many healthcare workers also died. It is the most difficult moral dilemma I have ever considered, but I think my family has to be my first priority.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

H5 Viruses in the United States | Avian Influenza (Flu)

At least the CDC is giving information on precautions, and also stating that serious cases of human acquired avian flu has occurred with other strains. Although that hasn't happened here, they are leaving the possibility open. It seems to be a factual and fairly transparent statement.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Thanks RN. I have done some reading on this and other possible viral outbreaks. I believe it highly likely that some type of outbreak will occur. According to what I have read, most experts believe it's not a matter of if, but rather when, it happens.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

Mad Trapper said:


> Besides prevention what is best to have on hand for secondary infections caused by bacteria?
> 
> Amoxicillin 250mg AND 500mg
> Ciprofloxacin 250mg and 500mg
> ...


Antibiotics are beautiful things when you need them; we keep a stock too.

But for those less familiar with the resistance problem: Please don't use antibiotics routinely for viral infections just to protect against possible secondary bacteria. That's a great way to train bacteria to resist the antibiotic. If you Do get something bacterial, Then go to the antibiotics and take the full course even if you feel better before it's done. Let's not add additional antibiotic resistance to our problems.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Spice said:


> Antibiotics are beautiful things when you need them; we keep a stock too.
> 
> But for those less familiar with the resistance problem: Please don't use antibiotics routinely for viral infections just to protect against possible secondary bacteria. That's a great way to train bacteria to resist the antibiotic. If you Do get something bacterial, Then go to the antibiotics and take the full course even if you feel better before it's done. Let's not add additional antibiotic resistance to our problems.


I'm aware of how antibiotics work. What I was asking was what to have on hand for secondary infections such as Pneumonia, which often takes over once the virus has weakened your system.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Mad Trapper said:


> I'm aware of how antibiotics work. What I was asking was what to have on hand for secondary infections such as Pneumonia, which often takes over once the virus has weakened your system.


This is the problem that leads to guessing and shotgunning use of antibiotics. You have an impressive array of drugs, but lacking anything in the one category that would most likely be used to treat pneumonia. Sorry, but I would be practicing outside my scope to tell you what to use. Can't go there.
Furthermore, the type of pneumonia that kills massive numbers of people in flu pandemics is caused by an over reaction of the immune system. This is why these pandemics ravage the young and healthy, rather than the very old and very young. The lungs fill with pus, basically, that is produced by the body in response to the virus. Antibiotics and even mechanical ventilation cannot save many of these patients. Their lungs turn to a jello like consistency and there is no air space. This is what happened in many of the H1N1 deaths, as well as the 1918 pandemic. I knew doctors who didn't want to get the H1N1 shot change their minds pretty fast once they saw how these patients died.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

I have a copy of a book, Where There Is No Doctor, that has some recommendations, MadTrapper. Should I be pressed to the extreme of making those decisions myself, I'll be consulting that source.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Here is a link for the downloadable PDF file on the book. The link also has other 
great medical books that are downloadable. Thet are big and will take awhile to 
download them, but they are great reads and a fantastic resource to have on hand.
Books and Resources | Hesperian Health Guides


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

3 strains is a bio attack. They are killing the food supply.
This has been 3 or 4 years in the making and yes, we should have 2 or 3 pretty lethal runs this winter - that of course will look like "why Gomer pyle "naychure" has just gone crazy!"
All track able by signature like the radiation, but no one will track because then it would be obvious to anyone.
got to deal with the illegal dump and leftovers from fake "jihad/refugee" cash cow somehow. Cdc is militarized and preparing for what they truly have been all along.
Hopefully, Americans will use their ways and brains and it will not affect them so much but this is the bio war people have been talking about for ten years.
Like I said, med scape and cdc medical runts will look like mammy yokum and mostly practice "well now it's worse hee and you know it can get like that" ie worthless knowledge because something to say. "Frieden" - hollywood of pestilence. First money made taking arabs and mexicans unwanted, now make money cleaning mess up for about the next 7 years or so like is lam.

Gets back to my wondering about the jews throwing good money after bad and cushioning black holes as opposed to helping things of the people that helped them and could actually do some good, like clean food and plague education that wasn't just empty mesmerism.
Americans can fight this for us and our animals. Pagans, heathens and enemies is what the crap is for. Let it turn right back on isis and get ready for no less than a dozen nasty diseases by Christmas. Bacterial, viral, fungal, microbial and toxic. Mus lums ways are contributory. Don't use same public facilities where there are lots of illegals and mos lums. 10% bleach water spray bottles...


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

One of the farms they killed all the birds at is only 30 miles from me


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

What happened to the dog flu.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Key Facts about Canine Influenza (Dog Flu) | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) | CDC

Not too worried about this. So far humans have not contracted canine influenza. And dogs don't have wings, so I don't worry about them dropping in on my chicken flock and infecting them.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I just hope the dog flu runs it's course and dies out before all the snow birds come to 
AZ with their pooches. Because I don't have any grass for my wife's little guy, we
take him to the subdivision's dog park. That will stop as soon as the snow bird season
starts or earlier if necessary. He may be a fufu dog, but he hunts. He's caught rabbits,
squirrels and a couple of birds who didn't get far enough off the ground. Now he's 
trying to catch lizards, but when he grabs a tail, it breaks off and then he carries it up to
one of very proudly. He needs to start working on the quail around here.


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