# Cover vs. Concealment; The Effectiveness of Firearms



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

We've talked about Cover vs Concealment in a firefight and since I've never been in a firefight, I'm no expert. But for those who really do not understand the effectiveness of a firearm, take a look at the pictures below of a range backstop.
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The first picture shows my range backstop made of standard Railroad Cross Ties 7"X9". Behind the cross ties is a mound of dirt and behind the mound of dirt are some trees that were taken down in the construction of the range. The 2nd picture shows a piece of metal painted orange that is designed to stop up to a .22LR but as you can see a by the holes in it, that more powerful rounds can penetrate it. Below that are some 55 gallon drums and you can see the effectiveness of a 55 gallon drum in stopping a bullet. Even a .22LR will easily penetrate and pass through...contrary to what you see in the movies.

The next two pictures show the backside of the cross ties and the penetration of the rounds.

A 5.56 62 grain green tip, .270 WIN and a .300 Remington Ultra Mag will penetrate and pass through the cross ties.

As far as handgun calibers; a 9mm, .38 SP, .380 ACP and a .45 ACP will not pass through the cross tie. Depending on the bullet, JHP vs. FMJ, you can see the damage that it inflicts to the cross tie.

We do not shoot handgun rounds at the metal plate because of the shrapnel, the metal plates are only for 100 yard shots. It gives you instant feed back on your shot placement when you hear the ping of the round hitting the plate.

Note, that we found an old cast iron skillet that was un-useable so we shot it. Even a .22LR round will penetrate cast iron. I'm no steel expert but from what I've learned and my experience, steel that is designated as AR500 has some round stopping capability. I'll defer to the military folks who know more about body armor and round stopping effectiveness.

Putting this into a common likely scenario, a wall of your home is Concealment only and not true cover. Understand that.

Just wanted to share this.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Great demonstration.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Very cool. Kindly quit wasting ammo. Thanks.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

DISCLAIMER;

All brass was picked up and returned to its rightful owner during this and all demonstrations. Sadly, no muslimes were hurt or killed in this demonstration.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Oh, you heathen defiler of Mother Earth!! You have contaminated Her precious soil with creosote coated lead. Father Sky will not take kindly to your wanton rape of His bride!!!

Dang, that really hurt my head to think like a tree hugging hippie liberal.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

That made me laugh out loud! 

I will tell you this, when cutting creosote treated cross ties, wear a mask. That smell stayed with me for days!


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Oh, you heathen defiler of Mother Earth!! You have contaminated Her precious soil with creosote coated lead. Father Sky will not take kindly to your wanton rape of His bride!!!
> 
> Dang, that really hurt my head to think like a tree hugging hippie liberal.


Although that was hilarious RPD, please go punch yourself in the face. We have to be consistent with how we address hippie nonsense. :lol:

Slippy: How frequently do you expect to have to replace the RR ties?


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Inor said:


> Although that was hilarious RPD, please go punch yourself in the face. We have to be consistent with how we address hippie nonsense. :lol:
> 
> Slippy: How frequently do you expect to have to replace the RR ties?


I know some guys in a hunting club that have a setup pretty similar to mine and have shot at their range a couple of times. They probably shoot more rounds collectively with multiple members and their RR ties backstop has been there for 15+ years. The only difference is their backstop is twice as wide as mine so they can spread out the damage. It's pretty shot up but still standing. If the RR ties get too damaged, I may just add a pile of sand in front of the backstop and improvise the targets.

My plan was to buy some AR500 steel so that may minimize the damage. I just haven't gotten around to getting the AR500 targets yet.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

The AR500 steel targets ain't cheap!

AR500 Steel Targets | ShootSteel.com
AR500 Targets, Steel Targets, Body Armor, Steel Shooting Target Stands | AR500-Targets.com


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Slippy, what I use for target frames are the election campaign signs that are a simple piece of plastic coated corrogated material with two wire legs that stick in the ground.
Election signs on public road right of ways are illegal in my county, so I'm performing a civic deed when I remove them.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I build target stands using four eight foot 1x2 firring strips, a couple of machine screws, six flat washers and two nylock nuts. The front frame is wide enough for a full size silhouette and has a cross bar on the top and one where the bottom of the target comes on the frame. This acts as the two front legs of the stand. The rear frame has a cross piece just below the front frame and bolts at the top on the outside of the front frame. I use a piece of cardboard stapled to the front frame and attach targets with masking tape. It is very light and easy to transport but I have weights to keep it from blowing over in the wind. They are cheap and easy to build and low enough to put the target in the approximate middle of the burms at the local range. I can place it at any range and never have to deal with the targets that folks leave up on the backboards at the range. I also have a set of silhouette targets for the rimfire silhouette practice so I can practice shooting them to prepare for the matches.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Slippy,
If yo put a vertical railroad tie behind your current backstop at both sides and then another wall and fill the void with sand you will stop 99% of all the bullets you fire and be able to reclaim the lead to cast bullets.

Just a thought to reduce the cost of shooting for you and help with the lead polution - you wont want a food garden growing where that lead is going into the ground... It turns you into an idiot and you will start voting democrat.


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## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Or put 3 feet wide water behind your ties, then a sheet of 1" plywood. 3' of water will pretty much stop ANY bullet dead. That includes 50 caliber rifle rounds.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Hang the steel targets from chains this will allow them to swing with the impact of the bullet. This directs the bullet into the ground. Which will help with ricochets and bullets coming straight back at you. STOP MOUNTING THE PLATES FLAT ONTO THE WALL. At least angle them down before you shoot yourself or injure someone else.

Yes I'm talking from experience.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Chipper said:


> Hang the steel targets from chains this will allow them to swing with the impact of the bullet. This directs the bullet into the ground. Which will help with ricochets and bullets coming straight back at you. STOP MOUNTING THE PLATES FLAT ONTO THE WALL. At least angle them down before you shoot yourself or injure someone else.
> 
> Yes I'm talking from experience.


This is true. I can speak from experience also, regarding military surplus 30-06 armor piercing ball and engine blocks. I got hit with the core, the person standing next to me got a hunk of copper jacket in her face.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Look at the rail road ties. Look at the walls of a house. Think how many TV shows shows a guy firing out the window of his house and he is protected except for the parts of his body that is shown above the window sill. A .308 or 30-06 round will go through the LENGTH of most homes. If you are building a fighting position, unless you can afford reinforced concrete 3 or 4 feet thick, you had best start digging. Look up fighting positions with overhead cover.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Notsoyoung said:


> Look at the rail road ties. Look at the walls of a house. Think how many TV shows shows a guy firing out the window of his house and he is protected except for the parts of his body that is shown above the window sill. A .308 or 30-06 round will go through the LENGTH of most homes. If you are building a fighting position, unless you can afford reinforced concrete 3 or 4 feet thick, you had best start digging. Look up fighting positions with overhead cover.


Yes Sir NotSoYoung,

That was exactly the point of this thread to point out Cover vs Concealment when in a firefight. Next weekend I plan on doing a demonstration using some cinderblocks filled with 1. Sand, 2. Mortar and posting the results.

I've told Mrs Slippy if there is an intruder and he ducks behind a wall, shoot the hell out of the wall. I've raised boys who tore up walls and can patch drywall with the best of them.

Poured reinforced concrete or several feet of dirt is my Cover of choice.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

Thanks for the post, Slippy.
I am still looking for property (acreages) and one of the items I would like is a pistol range.
I am surprised that handgun calibers did not pass through the railroad ties. Good to know.

I'm still not hiding behind any Florida pines, I'd favor a palm tree first.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

CWOLDOJAX said:


> Thanks for the post, Slippy.
> I am still looking for property (acreages) and one of the items I would like is a pistol range.
> I am surprised that handgun calibers did not pass through the railroad ties. Good to know.
> 
> I'm still not hiding behind any Florida pines, I'd favor a palm tree first.


JHP handgun rounds penetrate the wood then usually start to flatten out shortly after contact. FMJ handgun rounds can usually be dug out of the RR Ties with a knife.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

CWOLDOJAX said:


> I'm still not hiding behind any Florida pines, I'd favor a palm tree first.


The Japanese in the South Pacific in WWII built many bunkers and other fortified positions using coconut palm logs. They proved very effective against the firepower of the US Marines, and even against US naval bombardment.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> The Japanese in the South Pacific in WWII built many bunkers and other fortified positions using coconut palm logs. They proved very effective against the firepower of the US Marines, and even against US naval bombardment.


I had read somewhere that the palm trees were a mystery to the British while firing their cannons at fort Sumter (?). Cannon balls would bounce off of the palm trees stacked around the fort.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Slippy, what I use for target frames are the election campaign signs that are a simple piece of plastic coated corrogated material with two wire legs that stick in the ground.
> Election signs on public road right of ways are illegal in my county, so I'm performing a civic deed when I remove them.


I do exactly the same, particularly for candidates I don't like, which is pretty much all of them.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

I can Personally Vouch that a 44 magnum will shoot though a Hollow Core door a central heat and air airhandler behind said hollow core door three 1/2 thick sheets of sheetrock a 3/4 thick sheet of fiber board and the brick on the outside of the house.


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## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

Misfire ?


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Jeep said:


> Misfire ?


Sounds like he misplaced his house key.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

No ex wife


Jeep said:


> Misfire ?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Oh, it was a missus fire, as opposed to a Miss fire.


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