# How would you attack this ?



## John Oscar

Or would you just move on to an easier target ? I know preppers prep so they do not find themselves in this situation, but imagine your in charge of a group of marauders, any size group you think would attack it from 5 to 5,000.

There are other defenses but will run down the basics.

Facility is located on the highest possible ground in the area, about 10 miles from a major city, no surrounding structures providing view of the interior. It is capable of feeding the entire population enough rationed food produced or stored by the facility, to sustain the population for at least 2 years with no outside resupply, this includes nothing the individual preppers inside may have stored for personal use.

The facility is constructed of shipping containers stacked 3 high and at least 2 deep and bolted together to form the rectangular walls of a greenhouse for an Aquaponics farm. The inside of the walls are riddled with 250 to 300 individual prepper safe-rooms the composition being left to the individual insides imagination. Each safe-room would have a clear field of fire of at least the other 3 walls. The exterior walls are solid, no windows or anything that would designate floors or levels. Defense would be provided by guards on top of the 24' walls firing from hardened defensive positions, and 4 40' guard towers, one at each corner, each hardened and manned by people with sniper training. Eyes would be supplemented with HD and IR cammeras

Exterior wall composition is 1" thick fake stone, on Standard stainless steel mesh, on hardy-backer. This would be attached to a shipping container that had been sprayed with a military grade bedliner.

LINE-X Sprayon Bedliners, Protective Coatings, Truck Bed Coating, Floor Coating, Industrial Flooring

The interior of the shipping container exterior wall would be a 10" think offset studded wall sheathed in 1/2" plywood and filled with sand. Another interior coat of bedliner would have been an option for the preppers located within.

2 entrances, one on each end, one for vehicle traffic that would be sealed 99.9% of the time if SHTF, the other a 5' wide 16' long tunnel, the tunnel walls would be the same makeup as the external wall, and have 4 gates, of varying design and composition. Basic rule only one gate open at a time. an example of a gate would be the final interior one, 1/2" rebar woven and welded into a pattern providing 8" squares and dropped from above like a traditional portcullis.

50 to 75 yards from the main walls would be a single row of shipping containers forming another rectangle, a gentle sloping berm pushed up to the back of the containers to provide approximately 9' in height, and not providing cover to the enemy from the wall guards. This would be an area where our assault force could move without being seen, livestock could be kept, and refugees protected from sniper fire. In exchange for us housing, protecting and feeding the refugees they would clear a flat kill zone at least 1k meters around the facility and plant it with a low growth height vegetation, preferably mostly potatoes if the soil will allow and take care of the exterior livestock.

The refugees would be allowed and encouraged to have guns, though they would be required to surrender most of the basic 4 types of ammunition that we would stock and reload as a community inside the fortifications. They would rarely be allowed inside and in only very limited numbers if this did happen. They would be searched prior to entering and leaving the facility, they could not be armed inside. It would also be my hope and would encourage the refugees to form a tight knit community, with it's own elected officials and police/guard force. Once they were established, they would decide who to allow into their community and who to remove from it. The only requirement would be all small children possible, are accepted. children under the age of 5 would be permitted (at the option of the parents) to live inside the compound so they could receive better care until the age of 5.... maybe 10. Any of these children that show exceptional needed skills or abilities would be allowed to become a full member of the facility community. This is mentioned because the refugees would be more inclined to defend walls that protect their children than any other.

One gently curving side to side 7' deep trench Clearly visible by our guards would extend from each corner of the facility diagonally to the limits of the kill zone, this would serve to help funnel attackers and provide our assault team with a means of getting behind them should the need arise. Fifty meters inside the extreme edge of the kill zone would be an elaborate barbed wire fence, followed by 20 meters of caltrops, vehicle barriers made of old rail road ties and telephone poles (constructed to provide minimal cover) 8' lengths of 1/2" rebar beat in at an angle, IR as well as Siren trip flares, ect. Then another intricate barbed wire fence.

The facility is designed to become more fortified over time, to adapt and evolve from lessons learned, assistance from other facilities could be requested in an emergency. Due to land costs the initial facility would be as little as the facility grounds and enough land to provide a 100 yard perimeter, the expansion of the kill zone would be to feed the refugees and supplement the diets of the fort inhabitants.

The primary threat I can see is marauders posing as refugees to infiltrate the kill zone and launching the attack from the exterior protected perimeter. Since the refugees will be responsible for admitting who they want into their community, they will heavily man the 2 gates and accompanying fortifications through the exterior perimeter. The refugees will decide if they want them in their community. The only requirements being we take in small children if we can and the parents desire, as well as thoroughly, respectfully, searching them before proceeding forward. (Looking for explosives, commo equipment, ect.)

Anyway, those are the basics, Attack !!!! or look for greener pastures ?


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## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> In exchange for us housing, protecting and feeding the refugees they would clear a flat kill zone at least 1k meters around the facility and plant it with a low growth height vegetation, preferably mostly potatoes if the soil will allow and take care of the exterior livestock.
> 
> The refugees would be allowed and encouraged to have guns, though they would be required to surrender most of the basic 4 types of ammunition that we would stock and reload as a community inside the fortifications. They would rarely be allowed inside and in only very limited numbers if this did happen.
> 
> The only requirement would be all small children possible, are accepted. children under the age of 5 would be permitted (at the option of the parents) to live inside the compound so they could receive better care until the age of 5.... maybe 10. Any of these children that show exceptional needed skills or abilities would be allowed to become a full member of the facility community. This is mentioned because the refugees would be more inclined to defend walls that protect their children than any other.
> 
> The only requirements being we take in small children if we can and the parents desire, as well as thoroughly, respectfully, searching them before proceeding forward. (Looking for explosives, commo equipment, ect.)


Please forgive me for chopping up your quote I just wanted to address some points and make them easy to be seen what I am addressing.

First you never said how many preppers were inside.

Second sounds like your trying to shake down the refugees by taking their ammo. If your offering protection but then let them keep their weapons, then you do not really need to protect them if they have their own weapons and ammo.

Thirdly sounds like your trying to create a middle ages fiefdom where they are doing all the work and your reaping the benefits, but your justifying it by saying your "feeding, protecting, and housing them". Your not housing them, because your not letting them in the compound, they have weapons to protect themselves, maybe, but your taking most of their ammo, and your "feeding" them with the sweat of the labor growing food and taking care of livestock so that you do not have to do the "dirty" work.

fourthly your want to take their kids from them possibly up to the age of 10 "to keep them safe", but there is a possibility you will keep them after that if they prove to be of use.

Sounds to me you will be real happy with your serfs/indentured servants/slaves/refugees, and if they decide they do not like this arrangement I am sure you will let them leave, but I am also sure you will not give back the ammo you relieved them of or compensate them with food for the labors they did for you.

I would think it is not Marauders coming after you, but more like people who want to protect the freedom of themselves and others from being made into serfs or second class citizens.


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## oldmurph58

only way i can think up quick is mortars and rockets. Personaly i'd leave them alone.


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## bigdogbuc

A nuke oughta' do it.


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## SAR-1L

I have already busted your balls amply over this topic, and the fact I think your idea won't work.
But depending on the scenario and resources on hand you did list any group size 5 - 5000.

I would honestly depending on the desperation of the mission would send guys to go on a suicide
run using a couple choppers, and have them barrel bomb the **** out of you.

That is if I wanted to wipe you off the map.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With a smaller group, with less resources...

I would study you, and determine key people of influence and do a midnight raid to kidnap key people
outside of your walls, tie them to posts and let you watch them bake in the sun until either you surrendered, fell
to internal conflict of letting your people suffer, or you tried to come rescue them and then would start picking you 
off or have them rigged with explosives to ensure if you did reach them, who did so was dead.

If you hear your people screaming in agonizing pain people by nature will want to rescue them.
But if I was a bad guy and I wanted to attack that is how I would achieve my mission.


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## Innkeeper

If you want an answer on the attack I will give it to you , but hopefully I will get some responses to my questions from you too.

Even after the SHTF the equipment will be out there for the people who know how to use it, as a former POC chief in a HIMAR unit I can tell you all it takes is either an MLRS or a HIMAR launcher either of which on it's own can rain death and destruction on a Grid Square. So all I need is to know your coordinates, which are easy enough to get especially on something that big, and I can sit back anywhere from 5km out to 300km and completely change life as you know it. Mind you 5km is safety zone so in a SHTF time I would consider being able to do it from as close as 2km


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## Old SF Guy

I would conduct a pyops campaign against the folks outside your gates. I would slowly convince them you are an oppressive force cheating them and taking from them. That you are by day trying to turn their children into spies against them. I would organize them to infiltrate to gain information about the internal workings of the camp. I would build sabotage cells to target critical infrastructure to weaken you over time (destroy critical irreplaceable components to the power grid to take down your cameras, etc) I would wait until the time that you were most vulnerable and then hit you with a small force that would have you bring all of those serfs into your compound for protection...and then when your focused on me outside....my force within your serfs would attack and open an access for me to get in and cripple your critical points, such as ammo bunkers or communications. I could take you down with 10-12 people and 1/3 of your serfs. That's my thoughts John.


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## SAR-1L

*[ begin sarcasm ]*

_But guys you could never get his serf's to turn against him...

Question 10:

For who is, indisputably, the most important person in Vault 101:
He who shelters us from the harshness of the atomic Wasteland, and
to whom we owe everything we have, including our lives?

A: The Overseer ( John Oscar )
B: The Overseer ( John Oscar )
C: The Overseer ( John Oscar )
D: The Overseer ( John Oscar )_
*
[ end sarcasm ]*

John if you can't tell by now... 
no one wants to live in the Land of Poop Buckets.


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## John Oscar

Thank you for the reply, was well thought out and addresses a lot of concerns people have.



Innkeeper said:


> First you never said how many preppers were inside.


Basic facility is designed to house roughly 1,000 people total including children.



Innkeeper said:


> Second sounds like your trying to shake down the refugees by taking their ammo. If your offering protection but then let them keep their weapons, then you do not really need to protect them if they have their own weapons and ammo.


In an EMP attack it is estimated that up to 80% of the population of the United states would stave, freeze, or die from lack of medical care. When I say refugees I am talking about the 80% that would otherwise be dead, if we are short on 5.56 ammo and someone saying they are starving, or everyone has been picked off by snipers, or whatever is carrying 5 cans of 5.56 ammo, yes we will take 4 of those for the price of admittance. i am just being honest.



Innkeeper said:


> Thirdly sounds like your trying to create a middle ages fiefdom where they are doing all the work and your reaping the benefits, but your justifying it by saying your "feeding, protecting, and housing them". Your not housing them, because your not letting them in the compound, they have weapons to protect themselves, maybe, but your taking most of their ammo, and your "feeding" them with the sweat of the labor growing food and taking care of livestock so that you do not have to do the "dirty" work.


I am trying to create a scenario where I can save the lives of as many Americans as possible, if you could think of a better way of dealing with the 80% that did not prep or had their preps taken from them and would otherwise die, please let me know.

They are being provided housing protected from marauders by our guards and cameras ect. and will be living in the shipping containers provided until they can build better housing for themselves. and by definition they will be starving, planting a potato when your starving to death will not help you, you will require assistance until the fruits of your protected labors can be harvested and yes a small percentage will go to the keep to pay the guards for watching your back 24/7, with some of the best technology and gear possible.



Innkeeper said:


> fourthly your want to take their kids from them possibly up to the age of 10 "to keep them safe", but there is a possibility you will keep them after that if they prove to be of use.


That is completely up to the parents, every prepper can only do so much to help those that did not prepare, I am not saying the refugees will be living in lala land with bubblegum and lolipops raining from the sky, it will be a damn hard life for a while at least and I personally would prefer my infants to be where I know they will be properly fed and clothed and I can visit them regularly, and if at (OK we will make it 10) they become full members because they excell st a skill we need, that just means they are free to live inside the compound and come and go as they please. It also means they will have a job to do inside the compound, probably guard duty.



Innkeeper said:


> Sounds to me you will be real happy with your serfs/indentured servants/slaves/refugees, and if they decide they do not like this arrangement I am sure you will let them leave, but I am also sure you will not give back the ammo you relieved them of or compensate them with food for the labors they did for you.


If something is charged, for the need of the community, for admittance, that is the cost of the admittance, and the ticket is non-refundable, nobody is forcing anyone to buy it. If they choose to leave for the wonderful option of rejoining that 80% who will die, I personally have no plans to send food with them to feed whoever will kill and take it from them. but that would be the call of the refugee community.



Innkeeper said:


> I would think it is not Marauders coming after you, but more like people who want to protect the freedom of themselves and others from being made into serfs or second class citizens.


The option is not live on a farm like some house on the prairie fantasy, or in this community, it is die, or live in this community, I really wish I could do more for those that did not bother to prep, or were robbed by a larger group, but i am pretty sure that I am doing more than anyone else for this group of people in need.


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## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> If something is charged, for the need of the community, for admittance, that is the cost of the admittance,
> and the ticket is non-refundable, nobody is forcing anyone to buy it. If they choose to leave for the wonderful option of rejoining that 80%
> who will die, I personally have no plans to send food with them to feed whoever will kill and take it from them. but that would be the call
> of the refugee community.


Just like a gang, once you are in you don't leave till your dead. 
Could be your recruitment motto...

"Welcome to the Land of Poop Buckets, You come in, but you don't come out!"


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## Innkeeper

Sounds to me John more like The Man Who would be KING. Because prepared or not, if you bring them in as 2nd class citizens in time you will need to fear more from them then you do from outside threats. One day you may find your blood feeding the Tree of Liberty. You do not have to share your belongings with them, but you can make them an equal in all that happens after they arrive, by making all Full Citizens , but having each work where their skills or lack of skills are best used you will get more and harder work out of them and even Loyalty to the whole. And if they do not want to follow the same rules as everyone else, then you kick them out to die, but you need to remember that Document which gave us all this Great Nation we now call home.... "All Men are Created EQUAL".

SAR1L: I love all the fallout games great way to kill a long cold winters night here in the Great White Frozen Wasteland.


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## John Oscar

Thank you for the reply sar, by the time I finished that last post 5 more people had posted so will take them one at a time



SAR-1L said:


> I would honestly depending on the desperation of the mission would send guys to go on a suicide
> run using a couple choppers, and have them barrel bomb the **** out of you.


Personally I think any force that could maintain and support those choppers would be focused on another group that could do the same and not wanting to waist resources on the facility in the first place. I also think that no matter how bad it gets, the military will stay together in some form using those assets to protect their own Families. They could actually be an asset if we could figure a way to make them trade partners.



SAR-1L said:


> With a smaller group, with less resources...
> 
> I would study you, and determine key people of influence and do a midnight raid to kidnap key people
> outside of your walls, tie them to posts and let you watch them bake in the sun until either you surrendered, fell
> to internal conflict of letting your people suffer, or you tried to come rescue them and then would start picking you
> off or have them rigged with explosives to ensure if you did reach them, who did so was dead.
> 
> If you hear your people screaming in agonizing pain people by nature will want to rescue them.
> But if I was a bad guy and I wanted to attack that is how I would achieve my mission.


The only people outside of the facility after dark would be the refugees, and by the time they had made it to us would probably have seen or experienced a lot worse than that.

Hopefully your assault force would be seen by by our IR cameras and trip flairs and be taken care of before it came to this.

No plan is perfect, but I think mine takes in more considerations than any other I have seen.


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## John Oscar

Old SF Guy said:


> I would conduct a pyops campaign against the folks outside your gates. I would slowly convince them you are an oppressive force cheating them and taking from them. That you are by day trying to turn their children into spies against them. I would organize them to infiltrate to gain information about the internal workings of the camp. I would build sabotage cells to target critical infrastructure to weaken you over time (destroy critical irreplaceable components to the power grid to take down your cameras, etc) I would wait until the time that you were most vulnerable and then hit you with a small force that would have you bring all of those serfs into your compound for protection...and then when your focused on me outside....my force within your serfs would attack and open an access for me to get in and cripple your critical points, such as ammo bunkers or communications. I could take you down with 10-12 people and 1/3 of your serfs. That's my thoughts John.


Outstanding plan, I expected no less from you SF, but as stated before the refugees do not come inside the actual facility for anything other than limited time things like visiting their kids (if they chose to have them housed their). They would be searched going in and out and only one of the 4 gates is ever open at a time. They have weapons, they will stand and fight with our full support from fortified positions or they will die. I really think this group of people, knowing the options of what is out there waiting for them, if treated as fairly as possible, would be grateful to be where they are.

Psyops could make things ugly tho.


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## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Thank you for the reply sar, by the time I finished that last post 5 more people had posted so will take them one at a time
> 
> Personally I think any force that could maintain and support those choppers would be focused on another group that could do the same and not wanting to waist resources on the facility in the first place. I also think that no matter how bad it gets, the military will stay together in some form using those assets to protect their own Families. They could actually be an asset if we could figure a way to make them trade partners.
> 
> The only people outside of the facility after dark would be the refugees, and by the time they had made it to us would probably have seen or experienced a lot worse than that.
> 
> Hopefully your assault force would be seen by by our IR cameras and trip flairs and be taken care of before it came to this.
> 
> No plan is perfect, but I think mine takes in more considerations than any other I have seen.


Lol, John you silly goof... Doesn't take more than a few skilled guys to run and maintain a chopper, and based on your 1000 people scale you will be more
than an adequate target. If you could pull it off you would be one of the larger towns, and you believing the military is going to keep control
of all critical assets is nothing more than a wet dream.

IR cameras, and trip flairs... taking you seriously is nearly impossible. You are going to have rabbits and wildlife setting the trips wires all the damn time
which means that after a while your response times will be slow and shitty. IR cameras going to cost you several thousand per piece, and you want to
cover the square mileage to support your 1000 person community? GOOD ****ING LUCK!

I mean it sounds piss poor on paper, I hate to imagine how poorly it will operate real deal.
Honestly cramming 1,000 people tightly into that space with all your supplies is like taping a sign to
your door that says... "I'M BENT OVER COME **** ME."

You are going to be a prime target, and if you are lucky enough to endure the first couple of encounters
you will likely succumb to the continuing aggressive advances on your golden toilet temple.


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## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> If you want an answer on the attack I will give it to you , but hopefully I will get some responses to my questions from you too.
> 
> Even after the SHTF the equipment will be out there for the people who know how to use it, as a former POC chief in a HIMAR unit I can tell you all it takes is either an MLRS or a HIMAR launcher either of which on it's own can rain death and destruction on a Grid Square. So all I need is to know your coordinates, which are easy enough to get especially on something that big, and I can sit back anywhere from 5km out to 300km and completely change life as you know it. Mind you 5km is safety zone so in a SHTF time I would consider being able to do it from as close as 2km


Innkeeper, I think I pretty much addressed this in another answer but like I said there, anyone with those kind of resources is either with an organised military unit or gang. I really think they would be more focused on another organised military unit or gang and save those resources for those threats. I will always remember Molly Picture day with the field artillery, those MLRS are freaking amazing, but would leave nothing left, what would be the point of wasting the ammo ? Especially when wasting the ammo would eliminated a potential trade partner ?


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## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> Lol, John you silly goof... Doesn't take more than a few skilled guys to run and maintain a chopper, and based on your 1000 people scale you will be more
> than an adequate target. If you could pull it off you would be one of the larger towns, and you believing the military is going to keep control
> of all critical assets is nothing more than a wet dream.


I think if the military does lose control it will break into groups, those groups would be to busy fighting each other or the gang armies to worry about us



SAR-1L said:


> IR cameras, and trip flairs... taking you seriously is nearly impossible. You are going to have rabbits and wildlife setting the trips wires all the damn time
> which means that after a while your response times will be slow and shitty. IR cameras going to cost you several thousand per piece, and you want to
> cover the square mileage to support your 1000 person community? GOOD ****ING LUCK!


The cost of the cameras would be spread across 200+ preppers paying rental fees and the profits made from the sale of organic produce ect.

Is a lot cheaper than your multi million dollar helicopters, the the fuel they suck down, and constant replacement of parts.



SAR-1L said:


> I mean it sounds piss poor on paper, I hate to imagine how poorly it will operate real deal.
> Honestly cramming 1,000 people tightly into that space with all your supplies is like taping a sign to
> your door that says... "I'M BENT OVER COME **** ME."


The sign could just as easily say **** that, go look for some group of 40 or so that could be easily picked off over time, by anyone that can shoot a rifle, and has some patience.


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## Innkeeper

Now John this is just my personal Morals speaking here, I would not consider it a waste of ammo to use one load of a launcher to take out someone who is setting up to be King and setting up a class system, because while I might be a trade partner today, when you feel yourself strong enough to take me out, you would just to get what I had for yourself. I am a quite and simple guy when I can be, but I also know the truth about bullies, your a soldier you should know them too. History is full of trade partners who turned on each other when they felt they were strong enough to take out or over their former partner.

So yes it would be worth the expenditure of ammo. Because anyone who looks at another as being less then themselves, will never respect anyone's individual rights nor would they want any other equals around only those who serve them.


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## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Innkeeper, I think I pretty much addressed this in another answer but like I said there, anyone with those kind of resources is either with an organised military unit or gang. I really think they would be more focused on another organised military unit or gang and save those resources for those threats. I will always remember Molly Picture day with the field artillery, those MLRS are freaking amazing, but would leave nothing left, what would be the point of wasting the ammo ? Especially when wasting the ammo would eliminated a potential trade partner ?


Once again..... BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! Look at Iraq, look at those guys from ISIS. They go into an abandoned military base, that isn't guarded or is lightly guarded with 10 - 20 guys and boom free shit.
Then they come running down the road in a new US mil vehicle, or something that belonged to the Iraqis.

A group isn't just going to go after another group of fighters, especially not marauders, they are going to hear of Golden Poop Bucket Ville, and they are going to ransack the shit out of you.
They are going to go where the most food, ammo, etc is easy to acquire with the LEAST resistance. They are not going to go after another group like them running low on supplies, which would
require a fire fight with a group with equal threat/force, and increased risk.

For all your boasting of credentials and service and shit, your ability think logistically or assess threat accurately is terrible. 
Criminals, Raiders, etc always go after the weak target, and unless you look more threatening than another gang or
military force they are going to have a field day with you.

You need to go back to 1st grade and watch bullies on the playground, they don't go after other bullies... simple.


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## SARGE7402

I'd have these folks lob about two or three rounds at you from way beyond range even of you 50's. Nothing like a little steel on target to take he starch out of someones backbone.
Not sure whether to list this under "Large Bore Rifle" or "Black Powder". | The Firearms Forum


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## Innkeeper

SAR-1L: You are correct about the freebies, I am in the country far enough that population is low, but there is a Military Storage Base close enough that what I might feel I am short of prep wise if the whole world went to S, I can pretty much acquire there and I know most of the others who would show up as well and have even deployed with and trust some of them enough to go together so helping each other succeed. IF the world went to S. just so the Gov't guys can put their worry to rest. lol


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## Innkeeper

SARGE7402 said:


> I'd have these folks lob about two or three rounds at you from way beyond range even of you 50's. Nothing like a little steel on target to take he starch out of someones backbone.
> Not sure whether to list this under "Large Bore Rifle" or "Black Powder". | The Firearms Forum


You need a well qualified fister or a quality FDC guy to hit him with that, which is why Tube is precision arty and MLRS is denial Artillery.


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## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Is a lot cheaper than your multi million dollar helicopters, the the fuel they suck down, and constant replacement of parts.


You silly idiot. You won't be buying a chopper post SHTF, you are going to be taking them by force... or finding them abandoned.
You also don't need a military chopper, you can use a civi's passenger chopper strap on a barrel, with a quick release attachment,
and drop it like its hot.

See you make things overly complex, you are setting up obstacles of why someone wouldn't attack that way not answering how you
would respond to it. Most likely cause you don't have an answer, you know you would be butt raped, real quick like, cause what does
someone do when someone is dropping barrel bombs in a tightly clustered living space... THEY ****ING PANIC... cause are talking huge
carnage, death and the smell of burning flesh all over the place, people freaked the F out, cause I doubt you got a bunch of veteran
soldiers to do your bitch work in Golden Toilet Town.


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## SARGE7402

Innkeeper said:


> You need a well qualified fister or a quality FDC guy to hit him with that, which is why Tube is precision arty and MLRS is denial Artillery.


All of us at ROTC summer camp in 68 had to demonstrate we could fire everything up to a 105 howitzer. Was actually quite a lot of fun. And you definitely dn't want to stand between the trails


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## John Oscar

Bloods, crypts, hells angels, MS13, skinheads, do you think they will blow there best stuff trying to take out the only place around that is actually producing a continuous supply of food ? That they could trade for ? Especially when cracking that nut means smashing the contents to powder ? and it costs you most of your good hammers.


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## Innkeeper

SARGE7402 said:


> All of us at ROTC summer camp in 68 had to demonstrate we could fire everything up to a 105 howitzer. Was actually quite a lot of fun. And you definitely dn't want to stand between the trails


I have been to OCS did the same class as the ROTC guys, trust me when I say it is nothing like a qualified fister or FDC guy. I say this as a guy who is qualified FDC and my BOC was a fister before he was FDC, and I have an uncle who was a fister in VN, fisters be crazy. lol


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## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Bloods, crypts, hells angels, MS13, skinheads, do you think they will blow there best stuff trying to take out the only place around that is actually producing a continuous supply of food ? That they could trade for ? Especially when cracking that nut means smashing the contents to powder ? and it costs you most of your good hammers.


With all respects to gangs, they don't think smart, they don't thing logistically.
They think like this "He has it, I want it, I am taking it, dead or alive."

They will take your women, kill your men, recruit your children as slaves... Look at
Africa all the violence, they don't say oh we will just trade with these villagers, no...

They rape kill/enslave the women, kill all the men, and enslave and/rape the children.
That is a gang, not your Walt Disney 50 Cent version of gangs you see in movies.

The more you speak the more you indicate you either are dumber than a box of rocks,
or you have no fundamental understanding of what you are up against. Period.


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## SARGE7402

John Oscar said:


> Bloods, crypts, hells angels, MS13, skinheads, do you think they will blow there best stuff trying to take out the only place around that is actually producing a continuous supply of food ? That they could trade for ? Especially when cracking that nut means smashing the contents to powder ? and it costs you most of your good hammers.


Remember that you're talking about folks that aren't wrapped all that tight. Some will just get a kick out of killing you a - - and raping whatever is left. Live, dead, male female old young.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Bloods, crypts, hells angels, MS13, skinheads, do you think they will blow there best stuff trying to take out the only place around that is actually producing a continuous supply of food ? That they could trade for ? Especially when cracking that nut means smashing the contents to powder ? and it costs you most of your good hammers.


Speaking as an Honorably Retired Member of the Military, and not some low gutter scum like you mention, I would personally drop the biggest hammer I had on a set up like you mention, because that kind of a set up is no better then the gangs you mentioned. And if that group was willing to trade with the gangs and not exterminate them, then they truly are no better.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> You silly idiot. You won't be buying a chopper post SHTF, you are going to be taking them by force... or finding them abandoned.
> You also don't need a military chopper, you can use a civi's passenger chopper strap on a barrel, with a quick release attachment,
> and drop it like its hot.


I have no clue what makes you think our assault force would not be going after the same assets, as previously designated on a map in order of priority, but ok.



SAR-1L said:


> See you make things overly complex, you are setting up obstacles of why someone wouldn't attack that way not answering how you
> would respond to it. Most likely cause you don't have an answer, you know you would be butt raped, real quick like, cause what does
> someone do when someone is dropping barrel bombs in a tightly clustered living space... THEY ****ING PANIC... cause are talking huge
> carnage, death and the smell of burning flesh all over the place, people freaked the F out, cause I doubt you got a bunch of veteran
> soldiers to do your bitch work in Golden Toilet Town.


The people living inside the fortress go inside there individual safe rooms as fast as possible, once the massive amounts of precious fuel you have burned up in the middle of an aquaponics farm goes out they repair the holes in the in roof of the greenhouse and try to keep the residual fuel from contaminating the water. And contact your trade partners to see if they could use some help attacking you.


----------



## SAR-1L

Lets just sum up this thread real quick like...

John here who lives in the land of ****ing oompa loompas made a thread asking our advice and thoughts.
John here has argued that pretty much none of our stuff would happen, cause he lives in the land of mickey mouse gangs.
John here disregards our feedback, based on actual military tactics used by terrorist, militias and violent groups in modern day.

John here is a dumb ass, he needs to consider the validity of our points or stop posting about Golden Toilet Ville.

- The End


----------



## John Oscar

SARGE7402 said:


> Remember that you're talking about folks that aren't wrapped all that tight. Some will just get a kick out of killing you a - - and raping whatever is left. Live, dead, male female old young.


If they could make it thru the defences.


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> If they could make it thru the defences.


Yes we forgot cause you are commando bad ass, and you lead the worlds most lethal
and fortified population of pooper scoopers, and indentured servants, oh god save us
from this most unstoppable force of crate dwellers. May we survive the wrath of those
who wield shovels, buckets, frying pans, and degrees in liberal arts and business finance,
less we not forget their illiterate and malnourished children.

Just for those that don't see it on the previous page:



SAR-1L said:


> Lets just sum up this thread real quick like...
> 
> John here who lives in the land of ****ing oompa loompas made a thread asking our advice and thoughts.
> John here has argued that pretty much none of our stuff would happen, cause he lives in the land of mickey mouse gangs.
> John here disregards our feedback, based on actual military tactics used by terrorist, militias and violent groups in modern day.
> 
> John here is a dumb ass, he needs to consider the validity of our points or stop posting about Golden Toilet Ville.
> 
> - The End


----------



## machinejjh

Gecko45, is that you?


----------



## James m

Well my idea is something chemical or biological. Even something as simple as communicable disease. All of these people in close contact not leaving the compound very much. Everybody gets sick snd die off one by one


----------



## SAR-1L

James m said:


> Well my idea is something chemical or biological. Even something as simple as communicable disease. All of these people in close contact not leaving the compound very much. Everybody gets sick snd die off one by one


But James that will never work, his highly trained unity of flying monkeys will render aid to the sick and wounded, all the while he will
call for the help of Merlin and other fantasy character, possibly Odin, and Zeus to fend you off!


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Speaking as an Honorably Retired Member of the Military, and not some low gutter scum like you mention, I would personally drop the biggest hammer I had on a set up like you mention, because that kind of a set up is no better then the gangs you mentioned. And if that group was willing to trade with the gangs and not exterminate them, then they truly are no better.


Yes innkeeper in a perfect world I would personally kill every gang member I could find in a SHTF situation, that would be my wet dream as well, and my death, is it your plan ?

The goal of my plan is to save as many innocent lives as possible, as cheaply as possible. Now say on the 10th or so load of food they get from us, we have heard that they attacked another one of our facilities, or are slaughtering children, what exactly makes you think a slow acting poison in that food, that would build with the next load would not kill more of them than all the ranting and raving and small groups of people committing suicide put together.


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Now say on the 10th or so load of food they get from us, we have heard that they attacked another one of our facilities, or are slaughtering children, what exactly makes you think a slow acting poison in that food, that would build with the next load would not kill more of them than all the ranting and raving and small groups of people committing suicide put together.


ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY operations of SCUBA STEVE and his highly trained network of super spies.
John, give up now you sound like North Korea for **** sake, you aren't going to be prepared for
every ****ing one of these scenarios, none of us will.


----------



## SAR-1L

I know what you want John, you essentially want us to agree that your poop fort is a great idea,
that we all see the errors in our ways and will throw our money at you in order to support this
monument to man, and the one last hope of salvation for the human race.

Not going to ****ing happen.


----------



## John Oscar

So far in between the spam of Sar saying the same thing over and over I think the best threats that have been brought up would be Psyops from SF guy and chem/bio from james, I am sorry but it would take me longer to consider these ideas and develop countermeasures than it takes sar to type **** you, you suck.


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> So far in between the spam of Sar saying the same thing over and over I think the best threats that have been brought up would be Psyops from SF guy and chem/bio from james, I am sorry but it would take me longer to consider these ideas and develop countermeasures than it takes sar to type **** you, you suck.


Spam, same thing? You are like a child, who invites his friends over to play a game.
A game in which only you know the rules, and the rules are constantly changing,
and every time someone tries to play within your rules you scream,
NO, STOP, IT DOESN'T/CAN'T/WON'T WORK THAT WAY!


----------



## SAR-1L

here is some additional scenarios for you to shoot down...

1. I catapult dead birds infected with, pathogens inside your city walls to sicken your citzens, ( credit goes to James for this. )
2. I catapult toxic waste, and other hazardous material into your city walls.
3. I drive a chlorine truck up to your facility and then detonate an explosive device beneath it once driving through your gates.


----------



## nephilim

You seem hell bent on this idea, I have to say, give it up. I spoke with a few local preppers at a meet today, and read your previous post and this one, and they just laughed at it. They couldn't understand why anyone would want to put themselves into indentured servitude for crap protection (your snipers would doubtfully have good training and are likely hunters who have made a few good shots), poor housing or minimal rations, along with having any usable tools they have stripped from them. Refugees or not, you'd find yourself on the end of the hang mans noose very quickly if you coerced that onto people.

Your scenarios also sound far-fetched. In a SHTF situation, you will not find a group of more than 10 people together out hunting or otherwise as it would just be too dangerous. By the time a solar EMP has wiped out the grid, a solid 30% of the population will die (nowhere near 80% that you are predicting). 30% would die, from attrition on the walks to find shelter/water/food (in that order) etc, from lack of medical care, or from looting. The figure would go up higher, to around 50-60% max after a year, by which point, anyone left will have learned to work together and bind as a community and collectively survive. I have always maintained, if you make it past the 1 year mark, you will make it long term. 

Also, what is to stop a local militia forming against you? I have basic ordinance knowledge, I can improvise smoke bombs, as well as pipe bombs and other such IEDs (including shrapnel grenades) from household materials and scavenged materials, along with local plant and wildlife remains (you'd be surprised at what some plants/trees/resins/bone minerals etc are explosive in nature) not to mention human sized traps which could kill instantly such as those made in Vietnam. I think it would take around a week of night time planting of the bombs and setting of traps on and around your facility, before people don't want to tend the farms for fear of dying, by which point, you will be forced to survive on whats on the inside. Wouldn't take too long for you to then have an internal rebellion on your hands. At which point, game over, I win.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> I know what you want John, you essentially want us to agree that your poop fort is a great idea,
> that we all see the errors in our ways and will throw our money at you in order to support this
> monument to man, and the one last hope of salvation for the human race.
> 
> Not going to ****ing happen.


Lol nah sar, I want to make the design better, and at the end of these discussions, if I still believe this is the best use of the remainder of my life, I will make it happen, regardless of your support or anyone elses. I want my life to mean something, and to me personally that means helping as many people as I possibly can.

With this plan if SHTF never happens, I can at least say I provided fresh healthy food for millions of americans and hopefully drove the price of it down. I can also say I provided a BOL location that was never needed for people who otherwise would have spent their life savings and kids college funds on acreage or whatever they never used.

If it is needed I honestly think this is the best plan possible for people of little means as well as refugees and beats the hell out of the options.

No it is not perfect, and the fact that I am making changes to it, and willing to put up with the crap to get the ideas I need to make it better should verify this.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Yes innkeeper in a perfect world I would personally kill every gang member I could find in a SHTF situation, that would be my wet dream as well, and my death, is it your plan ?
> 
> The goal of my plan is to save as many innocent lives as possible, as cheaply as possible. Now say on the 10th or so load of food they get from us, we have heard that they attacked another one of our facilities, or are slaughtering children, what exactly makes you think a slow acting poison in that food, that would build with the next load would not kill more of them than all the ranting and raving and small groups of people committing suicide put together.


Because you can save as many people as possible without dealing with the same people who are out to kill the ones your trying to save, it is called values, and morals, and being able to look yourself in the mirror after saying yeah I supply food and other trade goods to people who murder people for what little they have or who rape and murder women and children. waiting for them to kill or rape someone you may know is like trying to say the Holocaust was not real until I saw it with my own eyes.

Helping people who were to stupid or naïve to prepare or to help themselves is one thing, to knowingly deal with people you know are evil makes you no better then them. If you can not understand that, and did not learn it your time in service, or the deployments to Africa you went on , then you never will learn it or understand it. If you do not stand for something you will fall for anything. And if you do not stand for something all the time, then your only lying to yourself. I served 21 yrs in the Army putting myself on the line at times to help those who could not help themselves because I chose to do it not because well I have no other choice.

It is the same as having different classes of citizens, makes you no better then any two penny dictator in third world countries or mad men like Joseph Stalin, or any of the Gangs whose name you mentioned.

To Quote George Orwell "all pigs are created equal, but some are more equal then others". I assume by your defense of this prepper heaven that is your world view.


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> With this plan if SHTF never happens, I can at least say I provided fresh healthy food for millions of americans and hopefully drove the price of it down.


YOU ARE SO... ****ING... FULL... OF.. SHIT!

Do you actually believe this? Are you special?
Has your village put out missing posters for their idiot?

Sorry but the last time I heard an idea this far fetched
was from a sweet but misguided 7 year old.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> here is some additional scenarios for you to shoot down...
> 
> 1. I catapult dead birds infected with, pathogens inside your city walls to sicken your citzens, ( credit goes to James for this. )
> 2. I catapult toxic waste, and other hazardous material into your city walls.
> 3. I drive a chlorine truck up to your facility and then detonate an explosive device beneath it once driving through your gates.


Woot thanks Sar, this is what I am looking for.

1. It is a greenhouse with a roof....

2. Have never seen a catapult with a greater range than an average decent rifle.

3. How would you get it through the gates ? Or drive a vehicle that big around the barricades while being shot at ?

Look I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. If the countermeasure already exists or the attack easily thwarted I am not going to say oh you got me there.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> YOU ARE SO... ****ING... FULL... OF.. SHIT!
> 
> Do you actually believe this? Are you special?
> Has your village put out missing posters for their idiot?
> 
> Sorry but the last time I heard an idea this far fetched
> was from a sweet but misguided 7 year old.


If the idea took off, hundreds of organic farms popping up everywhere would do what to the price of organic food ?

To me it is worth the effort to try.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Woot thanks Sar, this is what I am looking for.
> 
> 1. It is a greenhouse with a roof....
> 
> 2. Have never seen a catapult with a greater range than an average decent rifle.
> 
> 3. How would you get it through the gates ? Or drive a vehicle that big around the barricades while being shot at ?
> 
> Look I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. If the countermeasure already exists or the attack easily thwarted I am not going to say oh you got me there.


it is called a Trebuchet really awesome device invented 1000 years or so ago. heck I know several farmers up this way who have them, they use them for pumpkin chuckin.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> If the idea took off, hundreds of organic farms popping up everywhere would do what to the price of organic food ?
> 
> To me it is worth the effort to try.


But your idea is not about an organic farm it is about a medieval fiefdom, because you are expecting refugees to do your work, how else are you going to run the farm you failed to highlight that.


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Woot thanks Sar, this is what I am looking for.
> 
> 1. It is a greenhouse with a roof....
> 
> 2. Have never seen a catapult with a greater range than an average decent rifle.
> 
> 3. How would you get it through the gates ? Or drive a vehicle that big around the barricades while being shot at ?
> 
> Look I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. If the countermeasure already exists or the attack easily thwarted I am not going to say oh you got me there.


1. Gods Green House? Ballistic Proof?

2. Trebuchet

3. So you are going to keep all vehicles at least 2+ miles away from your facility?
http://research.create.usc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=nonpublished_reports

I could even detonate it upwind from you... and let it blow into your facility and your people would drop like flies... know your shit.

DUMB ASS!


----------



## nephilim

Has my post just been glossed over?


----------



## Innkeeper

I could agree with that analysis info, I worked the security element for a classified US Facility in the mid east which had as a neighbor a chlorine plant, the threat of spills or terrorist attack was huge and there were air quality testers all over the facility, every day I was at work I had the image of being in a giant public pool the smell of chlorine was that pervasive, and that was without an attack or spill.


----------



## SAR-1L

nephilim said:


> Has my post just been glossed over?


Sorry Nephilim, John has a bad habit of not answering anything he deems
not worthy of a response, which usually is anything that is relevant or critical
that he can't answer.

That or it isn't an opportunity that allows him to display that he knows more
than anyone else on this forum, and that he is right, and his ideas are flawless.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper I fully understand your point, believe me I do.

If a group has an attack helicopter, or MLRS they can use, or anything like that, the only way to protect the women and children my facility is responsible for protecting is to deal with them on at least a limited basis and until we can get intel on their operations.

Yes through a couple loads of slow acting poison food, after they learn to trust it, you will kill a hell of a lot more of them than standing at the gates screaming fuk you shoot. 

To me that would be suicide, and murder of the people you are supposed to be protecting. You have got to get intel, that takes time, it sucks but it is true.


----------



## Innkeeper

nephilim said:


> Has my post just been glossed over?


Sar has him in a infinite loop of defense, he has quit trying to reply to mine as well. Hard to argue common sense, and against 3 he can only do 1 at a time I think.

My bad he replied to mine I stand corrected.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Innkeeper I fully understand your point, believe me I do.
> 
> If a group has an attack helicopter, or MLRS they can use, or anything like that, the only way to protect the women and children my facility is responsible for protecting is to deal with them on at least a limited basis and until we can get intel on their operations.
> 
> Yes through a couple loads of slow acting poison food, after they learn to trust it, you will kill a hell of a lot more of them than standing at the gates screaming fuk you shoot.
> 
> To me that would be suicide, and murder of the people you are supposed to be protecting. You have got to get intel, that takes time, it sucks but it is true.


Ask Czechoslovakia how well your plan worked for them in 1939


----------



## SAR-1L

Innkeeper said:


> Sar has him in a infinite loop of defense, he has quit trying to reply to mine as well. Hard to argue common sense, and against 3 he can only do 1 at a time I think.


Sorry guys didn't mean to high jack the thread, just can't help but call people on such
outstanding levels of bull shit and a piss poor philosophical god modding approach to defense.

I am gonna go quiet now


----------



## Arizona Infidel

I would join up with OSFG.


----------



## John Oscar

nephilim said:


> Has my post just been glossed over?


sorry neph, I try to answer every post as quickly as I can but apparently sar is a faster typist than myself and your post will require me to pull links to facts to post in the reply, it was a very good post and will take some thought and consideration on my part.

Thank you for posting it.

I wish I could type faster =/


----------



## Denton

This is the most entertaining thread of the week!


----------



## John Oscar

OSFG gets a free unit !!! If I could talk him into staying there =/


----------



## John Oscar

Denton said:


> This is the most entertaining thread of the week!


WOHOO !!! I want a cookie !!!!

I think I had the second most entertaining thread as well !!!

also thinking with Sar's help I set a record for fasted post to hit 7 pages.


----------



## MI.oldguy

I would separate from johns group and say good bye marauders,If I knew that they were weirdos I would not be in that group.simple enough?.


----------



## Denton

John Oscar said:


> WOHOO !!! I want a cookie !!!!
> 
> I think I had the second most entertaining thread as well !!!
> 
> also thinking with Sar's help I set a record for fasted post to hit 7 pages.


No doubt. This is a bloodthirsty crew. Threads that should die quickly last forever for amusement.

Meanwhile, no love for the brother looking for a good Rep-Tan replacement.


----------



## Guest

John Oscar said:


> Or would you just move on to an easier target ? I know preppers prep so they do not find themselves in this situation, but imagine your in charge of a group of marauders, any size group you think would attack it from 5 to 5,000.
> 
> There are other defenses but will run down the basics.
> 
> Facility is located on the highest possible ground in the area, about 10 miles from a major city, no surrounding structures providing view of the interior. It is capable of feeding the entire population enough rationed food produced or stored by the facility, to sustain the population for at least 2 years with no outside resupply, this includes nothing the individual preppers inside may have stored for personal use.
> 
> The facility is constructed of shipping containers stacked 3 high and at least 2 deep and bolted together to form the rectangular walls of a greenhouse for an Aquaponics farm. The inside of the walls are riddled with 250 to 300 individual prepper safe-rooms the composition being left to the individual insides imagination. Each safe-room would have a clear field of fire of at least the other 3 walls. The exterior walls are solid, no windows or anything that would designate floors or levels. Defense would be provided by guards on top of the 24' walls firing from hardened defensive positions, and 4 40' guard towers, one at each corner, each hardened and manned by people with sniper training. Eyes would be supplemented with HD and IR cammeras
> 
> Exterior wall composition is 1" thick fake stone, on Standard stainless steel mesh, on hardy-backer. This would be attached to a shipping container that had been sprayed with a military grade bedliner.
> 
> LINE-X Sprayon Bedliners, Protective Coatings, Truck Bed Coating, Floor Coating, Industrial Flooring
> 
> The interior of the shipping container exterior wall would be a 10" think offset studded wall sheathed in 1/2" plywood and filled with sand. Another interior coat of bedliner would have been an option for the preppers located within.
> 
> 2 entrances, one on each end, one for vehicle traffic that would be sealed 99.9% of the time if SHTF, the other a 5' wide 16' long tunnel, the tunnel walls would be the same makeup as the external wall, and have 4 gates, of varying design and composition. Basic rule only one gate open at a time. an example of a gate would be the final interior one, 1/2" rebar woven and welded into a pattern providing 8" squares and dropped from above like a traditional portcullis.
> 
> 50 to 75 yards from the main walls would be a single row of shipping containers forming another rectangle, a gentle sloping berm pushed up to the back of the containers to provide approximately 9' in height, and not providing cover to the enemy from the wall guards. This would be an area where our assault force could move without being seen, livestock could be kept, and refugees protected from sniper fire. In exchange for us housing, protecting and feeding the refugees they would clear a flat kill zone at least 1k meters around the facility and plant it with a low growth height vegetation, preferably mostly potatoes if the soil will allow and take care of the exterior livestock.
> 
> The refugees would be allowed and encouraged to have guns, though they would be required to surrender most of the basic 4 types of ammunition that we would stock and reload as a community inside the fortifications. They would rarely be allowed inside and in only very limited numbers if this did happen. They would be searched prior to entering and leaving the facility, they could not be armed inside. It would also be my hope and would encourage the refugees to form a tight knit community, with it's own elected officials and police/guard force. Once they were established, they would decide who to allow into their community and who to remove from it. The only requirement would be all small children possible, are accepted. children under the age of 5 would be permitted (at the option of the parents) to live inside the compound so they could receive better care until the age of 5.... maybe 10. Any of these children that show exceptional needed skills or abilities would be allowed to become a full member of the facility community. This is mentioned because the refugees would be more inclined to defend walls that protect their children than any other.
> 
> One gently curving side to side 7' deep trench Clearly visible by our guards would extend from each corner of the facility diagonally to the limits of the kill zone, this would serve to help funnel attackers and provide our assault team with a means of getting behind them should the need arise. Fifty meters inside the extreme edge of the kill zone would be an elaborate barbed wire fence, followed by 20 meters of caltrops, vehicle barriers made of old rail road ties and telephone poles (constructed to provide minimal cover) 8' lengths of 1/2" rebar beat in at an angle, IR as well as Siren trip flares, ect. Then another intricate barbed wire fence.
> 
> The facility is designed to become more fortified over time, to adapt and evolve from lessons learned, assistance from other facilities could be requested in an emergency. Due to land costs the initial facility would be as little as the facility grounds and enough land to provide a 100 yard perimeter, the expansion of the kill zone would be to feed the refugees and supplement the diets of the fort inhabitants.
> 
> The primary threat I can see is marauders posing as refugees to infiltrate the kill zone and launching the attack from the exterior protected perimeter. Since the refugees will be responsible for admitting who they want into their community, they will heavily man the 2 gates and accompanying fortifications through the exterior perimeter. The refugees will decide if they want them in their community. The only requirements being we take in small children if we can and the parents desire, as well as thoroughly, respectfully, searching them before proceeding forward. (Looking for explosives, commo equipment, ect.)
> 
> Anyway, those are the basics, Attack !!!! or look for greener pastures ?


option 1. Your biggest problem would be immigration...I would tell every person i came into contact with that there is a facility that will house you and feed and protect you if you work or those people can live off the land with me..give them the coords if they choose the former. i'll quote someone who knew a bit on the subject "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." every person who comes to your facility increases your risk substantially and decreases mine. You must deal with crime and punishment, uprisings...which make no mistake they will happen when people become jealous of position/influence or when they perceive quality of life insufficient.

phase 2 of option 1. If I took you by force I would wait 2 years until your food surplus was gone, and then another 1 year for the starving to take hold. during this time frame I would befriend those individuals on the outside of your walls..i would hunt and share what little i had with them and create friendships. you would be watched closely and studied. I would generate propaganda to instill doubt in your "castle".. at the opportune time you and your leaders would be taken care of. the flock would latch onto the next strongest leader with food water shelter and protection.

option 2. I would walk by your forsaken paradise and sadly shake my head thinking...why cannot man learn from history; be at peace and walk with god. This would be my choice unless you were cruel in this world you speak of.


----------



## John Oscar

nephilim said:


> I spoke with a few local preppers at a meet today, and read your previous post and this one, and they just laughed at it. They couldn't understand why anyone would want to put themselves into indentured servitude for crap protection (your snipers would doubtfully have good training and are likely hunters who have made a few good shots), poor housing or minimal rations, along with having any usable tools they have stripped from them. Refugees or not, you'd find yourself on the end of the hang mans noose very quickly if you coerced that onto people.


Honestly I think some of the people on this site, are a lot more knowledgeable than random people at a local meet, I looked for different sites for a while before i decided to post on this one. If you think I can reply to more than one site at this speed then damn I'm good !!!



nephilim said:


> Your scenarios also sound far-fetched. In a SHTF situation, you will not find a group of more than 10 people together out hunting or otherwise as it would just be too dangerous. By the time a solar EMP has wiped out the grid, a solid 30% of the population will die (nowhere near 80% that you are predicting). 30% would die, from attrition on the walks to find shelter/water/food (in that order) etc, from lack of medical care, or from looting. The figure would go up higher, to around 50-60% max after a year, by which point, anyone left will have learned to work together and bind as a community and collectively survive. I have always maintained, if you make it past the 1 year mark, you will make it long term.


Going to use your numbers for times sake, 50 to 60% is at least 150 million ? That is a lot of people, if you can save even a tiny fraction, why not try ?



nephilim said:


> Also, what is to stop a local militia forming against you? I have basic ordinance knowledge, I can improvise smoke bombs, as well as pipe bombs and other such IEDs (including shrapnel grenades) from household materials and scavenged materials, along with local plant and wildlife remains (you'd be surprised at what some plants/trees/resins/bone minerals etc are explosive in nature) not to mention human sized traps which could kill instantly such as those made in Vietnam. I think it would take around a week of night time planting of the bombs and setting of traps on and around your facility, before people don't want to tend the farms for fear of dying, by which point, you will be forced to survive on whats on the inside. Wouldn't take too long for you to then have an internal rebellion on your hands. At which point, game over, I win.


The local militia would have to make it thru the kill zone, past the IR cameras, flairs, and the guards, some of the guards would have night vision. The facility can stand on it's own with what is on the inside.

Their is no supreme leader on the inside to rebel against, each facility is a democracy based on the constitution and common sense.

Going to address another concern here that I meant to but forgot I had not, sorry.

I only went to africa once, but something I noticed, when people are starving, there is no wildlife left bigger than a small lizard, maybe some scorpions to set off traps, it was all killed and eaten by the first person to see it with a gun, going to be a hell of a lot of hungry people and a hell of a lot of guns. Hunting all day, every day, to feed their families. I would imagine that I would have to stop the rush of people from running to a popped IR flair in the hopes it might be a rabbit or squirrel or something.

Wow, made it with no links, cool, and like with any other post, if you feel your issues were not completely addressed, please let me know, it was not intentional, and if I have no freaking clue what I would do, I will admit it and thank you for the bringing it up.


----------



## John Oscar

MI.oldguy said:


> I would separate from johns group and say good bye marauders,If I knew that they were weirdos I would not be in that group.simple enough?.


None would be required to stay, this could be a primary or secondary BOL, or just a safe spot to load up your supplies from. I am renting them for the cost of a nice storage unit, Heck if your not adding to the headcount you could get one even cheaper, but you would need to let us know so you would not be added to the max headcount.


----------



## John Oscar

nightshade said:


> option 1. Your biggest problem would be immigration...I would tell every person i came into contact with that there is a facility that will house you and feed and protect you if you work or those people can live off the land with me..give them the coords if they choose the former. i'll quote someone who knew a bit on the subject "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." every person who comes to your facility increases your risk substantially and decreases mine. You must deal with crime and punishment, uprisings...which make no mistake they will happen when people become jealous of position/influence or when they perceive quality of life insufficient.


I agree a point would come when we could not accept more refugees, it would be up to the refugees to determine when this time had arrived and who else would be permitted inside. They would deal with crime and punishment, in uprisings the guards on the walls would support the elected leader. Fom my time as a prison guard I can tell you that you if you look at a group, all day every day, you can quickly determine who is who.



nightshade said:


> phase 2 of option 1. If I took you by force I would wait 2 years until your food surplus was gone, and then another 1 year for the starving to take hold. during this time frame I would befriend those individuals on the outside of your walls..i would hunt and share what little i had with them and create friendships. you would be watched closely and studied. I would generate propaganda to instill doubt in your "castle".. at the opportune time you and your leaders would be taken care of. the flock would latch onto the next strongest leader with food water shelter and protection.


I do have to admit that Psyops operations like your talking about would be effective, but you have to remember your target audience was probably near death when they arrived, and are now healthy and as happy and well cared for as possible.



nightshade said:


> option 2. I would walk by your forsaken paradise and sadly shake my head thinking...why cannot man learn from history; be at peace and walk with god. This would be my choice unless you were cruel in this world you speak of.


I would also wonder this same concept, the romans used to carry logs with them so they could construct a fort ever night wherever they went, then they started to decline, discipline broke down and they stopped.

Heck, I might even crack a jar of the hooch I made to trade, and take a sip in your honor. I personally do not think fat happy people are going to be trotting around looking for a spot to hang out, I think the vast majority would either be starving and already had everything of value stolen from them, or predators looking to take what you have to feed their families and not inclined to talk much. Or organized true predators, either way I will wish you the best. Please remember, they would not be wondering around if they were not already out of options and desperate.


----------



## Guest

SAR-1L said:


> Yes we forgot cause you are commando bad ass, and you lead the worlds most lethal
> and fortified population of pooper scoopers, and indentured servants, oh god save us
> from this most unstoppable force of crate dwellers. May we survive the wrath of those
> who wield shovels, buckets, frying pans, and degrees in liberal arts and business finance,
> less we not forget their illiterate and malnourished children.
> 
> Just for those that don't see it on the previous page:


hey ****er i have a degree in liberal arts ...lol

edit: yes god help us lmao


----------



## SAR-1L

nightshade said:


> hey ****er i have a degree in liberal arts ...lol
> 
> edit: yes god help us lmao


Lol don't worry I part time contract as a computer graphics artist for additional income
when not working security. I think creativity is a great thing, John however is not. lol


----------



## Innkeeper

No need to stop on our account Sar....sorry for my delay I went golfing. lol


----------



## Guest

SAR-1L said:


> Lol don't worry I part time contract as a computer graphics artist for additional income
> when not working security. I think creativity is a great thing, John however is not. lol


that is a cool job with computer graphics. i suspect it is a bit more than playing video games all day and "testing" them out haha...dream job. I dunno about poop bucket ville. honestly if you flex your muscles someone else with bigger muscles will flex too.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> Lol don't worry I part time contract as a computer graphics artist for additional income
> when not working security. I think creativity is a great thing, John however is not. lol


I think if nothing else you would have to give me credit for creativity, when my patent was researched nothing like it existed, lol that might be for a reason tho.

I think the primary difference between the way I think of things and those that are hardcore opposed is I do not think 50% of the population would lay down and die. I do not think they would get stuck in a traffic jam and just give up and go dig their graves. I think they would pull up to the car in front of them and try to push it out of the way, or wait for a bus or snowplow to have the same idea. I think those millions would head to the hills as fast as they could once they realised what was going on, I think they would swamp every inch of forests in a desperate try for food. I think before most died or let their families starve death, cannibalism would be an option. It takes a long time to starve to death, probably one of the most painful ways to go.

Also I fully understand that after you have invested so much into an idea, it is a lot easier to tear down someone elses than admit they might have a better one. Hell I have invested a tiny fraction of the time and energy that some of you have into your ideas and I can feel the attachment, and resentment towards people who appear to just be trying to tear you down.

Anyway, am not trying to say any of your ways is wrong, just trying to give people to poor to have an option, one they can afford.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Their is no supreme leader on the inside to rebel against, each facility is a democracy based on the constitution and common sense.


Sorry I went golfing for a few, but I am back, lol I am sure you missed me.

I would like to address the above statement, if you have 2 classes of citizens, your preppers on the inside and your laborers on the outside then you are both not a Democracy nor are you Governed by The Constitution. Remember according to the Constitution "All men are created Equal" by having your insiders and outsiders there is not equality.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> I think if nothing else you would have to give me credit for creativity, when my patent was researched nothing like it existed, lol that might be for a reason tho.
> 
> I think the primary difference between the way I think of things and those that are hardcore opposed is I do not think 50% of the population would lay down and die. I do not think they would they would get stuck in a traffic jam and just give up and go dig their graves. I think they would pull up to the car in front of them and try to push it out of the way, or wait for a bus or snowplow to have the same idea. I think those millions would head to the hills as fast as they could once they realised what was going on, I think they would swamp every inch of forests in a desperate try for food. I think before most died or let their families starve death, cannibalism would be an option. It takes a long time to starve to death, probably one of the most painful ways to go.


I do not agree with you a lot of the Big City people who are used to being able to go out to their stores and buy things or who are not used to hard physical labor, I believe they will just give up. There are lots out there who will not get a job, nor lower themselves to join the military to take care of their families, they prefer to be given Government handouts and subsidies, they are not going to change just because the walls are crumbling down. If anything they may abandon their families and turn to crime to take care of themselves. I do fear for women and kids in a SHTF time.

And they can go to the forests looking for food, but most do not know what greens to eat or mushrooms or other plants, and most have no clue how to hunt unless it is over a bait pile or fish without a fish finder. I think you are giving the teeming masses of the major cities way too much credit.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Sorry I went golfing for a few, but I am back, lol I am sure you missed me.
> 
> I would like to address the above statement, if you have 2 classes of citizens, your preppers on the inside and your laborers on the outside then you are both not a Democracy nor are you Governed by The Constitution. Remember according to the Constitution "All men are created Equal" by having your insiders and outsiders there is not equality.


Hopefully someday there will be a wall on the boarder with mexico, they can have their democracy and those that prepared or in this case Americans, can have theirs. In fact they are sending their children to us atm by the thousands.

And yea I missed you, I actually like some of your posts.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Hopefully someday there will be a wall on the boarder with mexico, they can have their democracy and those that prepared or in this case Americans, can have theirs. In fact they are sending their children to us atm by the thousands.
> 
> And yea I missed you, I actually like some of your posts.


Personally we should annex Mexico bring them into statehood......you will not have the border issue, after a short span the Drug lords will be crushed, because the American Military is not a pushover like theirs. We may have tough times for a bit but as their standard of living was raised things will level out and our Economy would Improve.


----------



## Guest

John Oscar said:


> I think if nothing else you would have to give me credit for creativity, when my patent was researched nothing like it existed, lol that might be for a reason tho.
> 
> I think the primary difference between the way I think of things and those that are hardcore opposed is I do not think 50% of the population would lay down and die. I do not think they would they would get stuck in a traffic jam and just give up and go dig their graves. I think they would pull up to the car in front of them and try to push it out of the way, or wait for a bus or snowplow to have the same idea. I think those millions would head to the hills as fast as they could once they realised what was going on, I think they would swamp every inch of forests in a desperate try for food. I think before most died or let their families starve death, cannibalism would be an option. It takes a long time to starve to death, probably one of the most painful ways to go.


I love films..that is one of my passions. films over ww2 are another passion as i am a history major. watch "the pianist" if you get a chance or know of it already. that is one of my favorite survival movies. it will put a few things into perspective for you i think if you really take note of things..it shows how fragile even a locked down city is when the shit truely hits the fan.

I think you are right to an extent about peoples reactions and how long it takes to starve. some people may be cannibals but most would not in my opinion. cannibals in the sense of actively hunting humans for dinner id say those types would be hunted by normal sane people. i would never eat another person..never. id rather die than loose my humanity.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> There are lots out there who will not get a job, nor lower themselves to join the military to take care of their families, they prefer to be given Government handouts and subsidies, they are not going to change just because the walls are crumbling down. If anything they may abandon their families and turn to crime to take care of themselves. I do fear for women and kids in a SHTF time.


IMO, they take the handouts because they are there, starvation will make any lazy piece of chit at least go try to shoot something. Never underestimate the moma bear, and what she would be willing to do to protect her cubs.



Innkeeper said:


> And they can go to the forests looking for food, but most do not know what greens to eat or mushrooms or other plants, and most have no clue how to hunt unless it is over a bait pile or fish without a fish finder. I think you are giving the teeming masses of the major cities way too much credit.


With the sheer numbers they would kill everything bigger than a squirrel that is breathing, and stumble into a hell of a lot of preppers doing it.

That is my opinion tho, but like the old saying goes, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.


----------



## Innkeeper

nightshade said:


> I love films..that is one of my passions. films over ww2 are another passion as i am a history major. watch "the pianist" if you get a chance or know of it already. that is one of my favorite survival movies. it will put a few things into perspective for you i think if you really take note of things..it shows how fragile even a locked down city is when the shit truely hits the fan.
> 
> I think you are right to an extent about peoples reactions and how long it takes to starve. some people may be cannibals but most would not in my opinion. cannibals in the sense of actively hunting humans for dinner id say those types would be hunted by normal sane people. i would never eat another person..never. id rather die than loose my humanity.


I agree about the Humanity, but never say never. The Donner party said the same thing, and the Argentine football team, until you look the specter in the eyes it is hard to say what choice you will make.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Personally we should annex Mexico bring them into statehood......you will not have the border issue, after a short span the Drug lords will be crushed, because the American Military is not a pushover like theirs. We may have tough times for a bit but as their standard of living was raised things will level out and our Economy would Improve.


OMFG I have thought this forever !!!! plenty of resources, 2 beautiful coasts !!! damn I thought I was alone in that line of thought.

Only issue is they would get senate seats and probably be solid democrats.... for a while anyway.


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Also I fully understand that after you have invested so much into an idea,
> it is a lot easier to tear down someone elses than admit they might have a better one.
> Hell I have invested a tiny fraction of the time and energy that some of you have into your ideas and I
> can feel the attachment, and resentment towards people who appear to just be trying to tear you down.


Ah now we are back to the meat of the issue aren't we John. You admit that you have put in a tiny fraction of the
time in that we have, YET you still believe your idea is BETTER than ours. That is the point of this whole damn thing.
The reason you have need to make not one but 3 separate threads for the same ****ing topic, your Poop Bucket Fort.

You wonder why I don't give you credit? Cause your shit isn't revolutionary, it has been discussed before, time and 
time again. You aren't the first person to consider farming or ****ing storage containers as housing.

The other mistake is you think I OWE you credit. I don't OWE you shit, no one here does, we are a community and
we give compliments when we wish, we give criticism when we wish. But your sense of entitlement that we should
give you money, dig your ditch and be your bitch cause you think you are so intellectually superior that you have
a solution to every threat we have listed, is EXACTLY why I DON'T ****ING LIKE YOU.

The people in this forum, this community are intelligent people some of them with more combat/military experience
than you yourself. Not to mention I a civilian, yes a ****ing civilian have more a more tangible understanding of
the human condition, and the tactics militants, terrorists, and gangs will resort to and who they will target than
you do!

You think your idea is better obviously, and many here have told you it won't work, the fact you aren't willing to
consider other options, when told time and time again is exactly why you will be one of the first dead mother ****ers
if the world as we know it dramatically changed.

You don't have to listen to me, you can put me on ignore I couldn't ****ing care, but either listen to these people
and what they are offering rather than trying to be intellectually superior to everyone or simply stop ****ing posting.


----------



## Denton

I really wish we had that little emoticon of the smilie eating a bucket of popcorn!


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> Ah now we are back to the meat of the issue aren't we John. You admit that you have put in a tiny fraction of the
> time in that we have, YET you still believe your idea is BETTER than ours. That is the point of this whole damn thing.
> The reason you have need to make not one but 3 separate threads for the same ****ing topic, your Poop Bucket Fort.


Actually I do not think I have said your ideas were stupid, one single time, I may have asked questions about how you would handle something but I am not the kind of person to get mad and start ranting at a forum, though nothing really wrong with venting from time to time /shrugs



SAR-1L said:


> You wonder why I don't give you credit? Cause your shit isn't revolutionary, it has been discussed before, time and
> time again. You aren't the first person to consider farming or ****ing storage containers as housing.


Really hoping the patent office disagrees with you if the idea is challenged...



SAR-1L said:


> The other mistake is you think I OWE you credit. I don't OWE you shit, no one here does, we are a community and
> we give compliments when we wish, we give criticism when we wish. But your sense of entitlement that we should
> give you money, dig your ditch and be your bitch cause you think you are so intellectually superior that you have
> a solution to every threat we have listed, is EXACTLY why I DON'T ****ING LIKE YOU.


I really think my ability to answer some simple questions, especially the ones you have spent so much time apparently working on is causing you issues, I personally have nothing against you, just because I am not throwing away my plans because you disagree with them does not mean I am not taking advice, it does not mean that I think I am better than anyone. If does mean that it is going to take more than you screaming **** **** **** at your monitor to make me abandon an idea I personally think could save a hell of a lot of lives.



SAR-1L said:


> The people in this forum, this community are intelligent people some of them with more combat/military experience
> than you yourself. Not to mention I a civilian, yes a ****ing civilian have more a more tangible understanding of
> the human condition, and the tactics militants, terrorists, and gangs will resort to and who they will target than
> you do!


I am pretty sure I have mentioned that a lot of people on this forum know more than myself, and that is why I am here. And I never said that you did not know more than me about anything. But you do seem to have an extreme superiority complex that your trying to project on others.



SAR-1L said:


> You think your idea is better obviously, and many here have told you it won't work, the fact you aren't willing to
> consider other options, when told time and time again is exactly why you will be one of the first dead mother ****ers
> if the world as we know it dramatically changed.


Once again have never said my idea is better, or attacked anyone elses like you seem so hell bent on doing, I have said over and over that I am looking for ways to improve it, and that is exactly what I am doing.



SAR-1L said:


> You don't have to listen to me, you can put me on ignore I couldn't ****ing care, but either listen to these people
> and what they are offering rather than trying to be intellectually superior to everyone or simply stop ****ing posting.


A lot of things that are worth knowing, learning, or at least helping understand the opposition will never be considered, debated, or improved upon if you only talk to those that agree with you. I would never put anyone on ignore, but you can ignore me if it calms you down before you have a heart attack.


----------



## Denton

You know, I have to tell you, John. I don't know what the patent is for, but building a fort isn't new, hydroponics and aquaponics are not new, and the notion of serfs on the outside of the castle is a pretty old concept, too. 

To me, it seems you are sort of new to the whole TEOTWAWKI/WTSHTF/ prepper thing, and are trying to figure out a way of making some money. Of course, what better way of figuring such a thing out than have a consulting firm work for you - a consulting firm made up of volunteers who don't realize what they are being conned to do! :lol:

I'm wondering when people are going to figure this out. Seems you got a good gig going, here. ::clapping::


----------



## Guest

Innkeeper said:


> I agree about the Humanity, but never say never. The Donner party said the same thing, and the Argentine football team, until you look the specter in the eyes it is hard to say what choice you will make.


I hope i would never stoop to that level...then again i might like the taste of brains with my scrambled eggs :shock:


----------



## ApexPredator

LOL good one denton.

Anyways I think most people are more upset that ur setting yourself up as a feudal lord which honestly I dont care because sheeple are sheeple they follow obama they will follow you.
That being said if its a nut it can be cracked and i dont have to beat your little fortress i gotta beat you. Several others have pointed out that at some point with enough resources (missiles) you can be crushed so I wont address something so drastic.

So first why would I attack you and why would I commit serious resources. You have infrastructure you have organization you have collected skills supplies and the ability to sustain yourself. This makes you a golden target if I can crack you. So how would I do it and what would I need. 5-25 personnel and a couple quality rifles ammo and homemade HE food for 20-30 days.

Firstly my group would be between 15-25 people drawing from the area I live in and preexisting arrangements I would have between 5 and 25 SF guys (based on maximum group size psychology). I am keeping this a little vague on purpose. Honestly your presented fortifications are fairly useless against a small motivated group led by skilled individuals. First with long range rifles (ask your "snipers" how they would like to be on the receiving end of this) I would either shoot to kill your guards or cameras which ever are exposed 2-3 shoots and then fade away if you responded with a QRF I would leave an obvious trail and booby trap it I would return in 1-5 days (varied of course) and start again varying between night and day attacks. once you no longer expose cameras/guards I would send in a couple expendables with cover from a designated support by fire element to lob homemade explosives over your wall after a few runs ill give you the chance to surrender. At which point I isolate your populace and start interrogations to decern who the leaders were and exile them or if they are valuable enough keep them under constant supervision.

This is all if I dont just sit at a 1500meters and pepper your tin cans with .50cal until you give up. Or find your water source and contaminate it even ground water can be contaminated, it happens on accident so doing so on purpose is actually kind of easy.

This is the reason I am buggin out no matter how well defended you can crack it but you cant crack what you cant find.


----------



## Denton

nightshade said:


> I hope i would never stoop to that level...then again i might like the taste of brains with my scrambled eggs :shock:


Better not get stuck on Donner Pass with a bunch of liberals. What brain is there is pretty rancid.


----------



## Guest

Denton said:


> Better not get stuck on Donner Pass with a bunch of liberals. What brain is there is pretty rancid.


lmao nothing a little hot sauce cant fix


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Actually I do not think I have said your ideas were stupid, one single time, I may have asked questions about how you would handle something but I am not the kind of person to get mad and start ranting at a forum, though nothing really wrong with venting from time to time /shrugs


I never said that you stated my ideas were stupid, I stated that you think your idea is better than everyone else.



John Oscar said:


> I really think my ability to answer some simple questions, especially the ones you have spent so much time apparently working on is causing you issues.


Really? So you now assume to know my personal prepping challenges? There really is no end to your arrogance is there?
So once again, what was the answer to the chlorine truck again? I am still waiting how you keep a semi tanker rigged with
explosives farther than at least 2+ miles in any given direction from your Poop Fort, or from detonating upwind and drifting
the shit in.



John Oscar said:


> But you do seem to have an extreme superiority complex that your trying to project on others.


I am not the person saying give me 1.25 million dollars, so I can create a group of second class citizens to work for me. Oh and they are free to leave but I get to keep their ammo, their food, cause it would be a waste to give them a fighting chance when there are so many threats out there.



John Oscar said:


> Once again have never said my idea is better, or attacked anyone elses like you seem so hell bent on doing, I have said over and over that I am looking for ways to improve it, and that is exactly what I am doing.


No but the language you use implies that you think yours is better. When other people say you are trying to put yourself in a position to be a King in a post SHTF world, I am clearly not the only one that holds this opinion.



John Oscar said:


> I would never put anyone on ignore, but you can ignore me if it calms you down before you have a heart attack.


I am no where near having a heart attack, I just enjoy shit stopping people who are #1 Full of themselves #2 Willfully ignorant


----------



## John Oscar

Denton said:


> You know, I have to tell you, John. I don't know what the patent is for, but building a fort isn't new, hydroponics and aquaponics are not new, and the notion of serfs on the outside of the castle is a pretty old concept, too.


For the life of me I cannot figure out why so many people who do not like my idea are so hung up on my patent.



Denton said:


> To me, it seems you are sort of new to the whole TEOTWAWKI/WTSHTF/ prepper thing, and are trying to figure out a way of making some money. Of course, what better way of figuring such a thing out than have a consulting firm work for you - a consulting firm made up of volunteers who don't realize what they are being conned to do! :lol:


It would also be a good place to get ideas for new patents.... just seems odd that so many people would be so hung up on mine or know so much about the process. to the point where they think they know more than the professionals I had review mine.... is kinda creepy



Denton said:


> I'm wondering when people are going to figure this out. Seems you got a good gig going, here. ::clapping::


Someone very well could have, and actually I think I do, I have got a ton of good ideas to research, many could definitely improve my idea, have to sort thru some poo to get them but some are very good. I may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but I searched pretty good and could not find anyplace were a person and his wife could get any of this protection and peace of mind for $100, and know for a fact that the space is theirs and not rented to 500 other people, maybe someone else has had the idea, but I have not found it.

BTW not accusing anyone of anything, just think it is odd. /shrugs


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> For the life of me I cannot figure out why so many people who do not like my idea are so hung up on my patent.


Cause you keep acting like you are the first ****ing man to invent fire you self diddling twat. People here are telling you, that this is nothing new
yet you are back to your arrogant shit again thinking you are the best of the best, commando badass engineer extrodinaire!



John Oscar said:


> It would also be a good place to get ideas for new patents.... just seems odd that so many people would be so hung up on mine or know so much about the process. to the point where they think they know more than the professionals I had review mine.... is kinda creepy


The fact you can't shut up about it is pretty creepy.



John Oscar said:


> I may not be the brightest crayon in the box. /shrugs


Understatement of the ****ing year my friend.


----------



## Denton

Look, John, you came here selling your patented, sure-fire product. Remember? Your threads are nothing more than a continuation of your vision; a walled garden.

I'm not sure what the patent is for, and I do not know who these "professionals" are who reviewed your plan, or even the field in which they are professionals, but I just don't see it.

I certainly do not see ever being a part of such a plan in such a scenario as depicted in the opening post of this thread. I am not a serf, nor do I plan on becoming one.


----------



## ApexPredator

I was kinda waiting to hear your answer because if its not gonna take much more than a couple guys with rifles and access to an abandoned grocery store then.......


----------



## Denton

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth, SAR? :lol:

I could be wrong, and if so it is your fault for being so subtle in your manner of communicating, but I am beginning to think you really don't care for John.


----------



## Prepadoodle

You would be in a fixed position while I would have mobility. I would snipe the guards off your walls a few at a time, in a war of attrition. You would eventually run out of people willing to get on the walls or in your towers. Next, I would take out your cameras and blind you. Any crews sent out to fix the cams would come under fire.

I would expect you to send out patrols to push me back, so you should expect to be ambushed a lot. If you pursue me, expect me to delay to a passage of lines and ambush you some more.

I would then start lobbing stuff over your walls. This would be mostly Molotov type devices, but smoke, tear gas, or chlorine gas bombs would also be used. These would be mostly to weaken your will to resist me.

As far as breaching your walls... well, that's the easy part. Once your guards are gone, all it would take is a few ladders. I would probably do something to keep you awake for 4 or 5 days straight, then hit you with a concentrated assault over the walls.

If I had a tank, helicopter, a few rockets or some artillery, things get a lot easier, but nothing high tech would be required. All I really need are time and the will. Remember Dien Bien Phu? Fixed positions are death when faced with a determined opponent.

On the other hand, I personally would bypass you and look for greener pastures, as I'm sure most would.


----------



## SAR-1L

Denton said:


> Do you kiss your mother with that mouth, SAR? :lol:
> 
> I could be wrong, and if so it is your fault for being so subtle in your manner of communicating, but I am beginning to think you really don't care for John.


LOL, Denton I don't care for bullshitters, especially bullshitters who want to be king.
I am surprised there is anyone left on this forum, that is surprised by my subtle approach


----------



## ApexPredator

I dunno he would be a worthwhile target think about all the sheeple doing the grunt work under decent management it would be a tough nut to crack and if he sets up a sustainable system for a couple hundred people thats not something to pass by at a without seriously considering just saying hes an attractive target.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> I never said that you stated my ideas were stupid, I stated that you think your idea is better than everyone else.


If someone decides that they are better off in an underground bunker than following your plan does that mean they think your an idiot and they think they are smarter than you ? If someone does not think it will be that bad and they will just grab a tent and a fishing pole and head into the national forest, does that mean they are assaulting your idea or think they are better than you ? If someone thinks they are better off staying in their house or apartment than following your advice does that mean they are calling you willfully ignorant ? If someone thinks all they need to do is live off the grid and it will not effect them are they calling you full of yourself ?



SAR-1L said:


> Really? So you now assume to know my personal prepping challenges? There really is no end to your arrogance is there?
> So once again, what was the answer to the chlorine truck again? I am still waiting how you keep a semi tanker rigged with
> explosives farther than at least 2+ miles in any given direction from your Poop Fort, or from detonating upwind and drifting
> the shit in.


I personally did not know that the detonation of a chlorine truck would kill everything in a 2 mile radius, that is good to know, thank you. I could only hope that stopping that truck to force it to detonate 1k meters away would provide enough distance that my walls could deflect the majority of the rest. as for an upwind detonation the fact that my facility is a greenhouse thus airflow can be restricted would help would help, gas masks would probably help as well, personal air filtration pumps people could afford to install in their safe-room since they saved so much money everywhere else could possibly be another factor. To be honest I have never thought of that attack and would have to give it a lot of thought.... really makes me wonder why terrorists have not done it.



SAR-1L said:


> I am not the person saying give me 1.25 million dollars, so I can create a group of second class citizens to work for me.


Really ? Is that what bugs you so bad ? I found the sight, thought it was a good idea, and a good way to possibly fund my idea and went for it. That is what the site is for, if you do not like it, or approve of it, then don't go there.



SAR-1L said:


> Oh and they are free to leave but I get to keep their ammo, their food, cause it would be a waste to give them a fighting chance when there are so many threats out there.


What a refugee leaves with is up to his peers. We do not tell mexico how to run their immigration though I wish we did =/

What a member leaves with is the contents of his/her safe room. all of them if that is their choice.



SAR-1L said:


> No but the language you use implies that you think yours is better. When other people say you are trying to put yourself in a position to be a King in a post SHTF world, I am clearly not the only one that holds this opinion.


This is the one area where I do know more than you, in fact I know my goals dreams and ambitions better than anyone here. They are wrong on this issue and yes I am stuck trying to think of a way to prove that fact, I do not know of a way to convince them that they are wrong so in this area we will have to agree to disagree. I have no clue why that would make me want to abandon my plans tho.



SAR-1L said:


> I am no where near having a heart attack, I just enjoy shit stopping people who are #1 Full of themselves #2 Willfully ignorant


Ahh I enjoy this as well, am fairly good at it, it is harder to do when your actually defending something and trying to learn from others instead of pure attack mode but I understand you on this one.


----------



## ApexPredator

where did you say this gold mine was located again.


----------



## Denton

ApexPredator said:


> where did you say this gold mine was located again.


John, Don't tell Apex. He likes opening doors just to see what is behind them. He's the type who lay siege just to see what kind of veggies you have growing in there. :lol:


----------



## ApexPredator

Honestly I am more interested in the guy growing veggies. I have spent a lot of time learning my trade in the military. I just bought a homestead site and am getting to a sustainable life but thats down the road a bit still so until then the veggie guy gots something I want and I got something the veggie guy wants.


----------



## Denton

ApexPredator said:


> Honestly I am more interested in the guy growing veggies. I have spent a lot of time learning my trade in the military. I just bought a homestead site and am getting to a sustainable life but thats down the road a bit still so until then the veggie guy gots something I want and I got something the veggie guy wants.


Says the guy with lots of guns and notions about breaching the perimeter!


----------



## PaulS

John,
You seem to be getting more of an attack than you expected. Under most circumstances I would like your setup. You have people who raise food for you, protect your land just because it is also supporting them.

The problem is the same today as it was in the age of castles. The reason fortifications are no good is because they are permanent. You are locked inside and once anything breaches your boundaries you are done. With the products in my kitchen and in my garage I can make a type of nerve gas that will actively kill for about 5 days. I did it and gassed my own home to get rid of the roaches that infested it. It killed everything in the house - even a lone ivy plant that we forgot to move out. It killed roaches, ants, spiders, flies, mice and it was years before we had a single spider in the home. The roaches never came back. It is a binary mix and is completely safe until mixed. It could be delivered with a trebuchet or a catapult or a home-made rocket, cannon or a dozen other devices without putting anyone on the outside in danger. A small group could tunnel in under you compound or use a black powder cannon to blast away at you until you surrendered.

You are locked to the fortress and there is no way to defend it but from a direct manned attack. It is a big target with all the vulnerabilities of any castle. That is the reason they don't use castles any more. The last time a fortification was used was in France in WWII. The Maginot Line was impervious to attack but only from the outside and it had no air defenses or real defense at all once the enemy went around it. Which is exactly what Germany did. There is no fortification than cannot be breached. Your foot of sand won't stop a 50 caliber round and after two or three 3006 rounds it would fail. A cannon would blow it apart - not some sophisticated artillery piece but a length of tubing of appropriate thickness and a one to five pound lead or steel ball. This stuff can be scavenged and put together with little time and it would devastate your complex. An enemy would destroy your aquaculture with the first round over the wall. Shooting dung balls mixed with broken up glass would start an epidemic. 

You just can't defend a fortress without a lot of help on the outside ready to go to war. 

Sorry, but that is the reality of it.


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## ApexPredator

Hey prepadoodle was gonna breach I was just gonna force a surrender then they would "invite me in" I would like the containers to be livable you know I dont like getting rained on our having a big hole in my wall.


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## ApexPredator

Paul
I beg to differ a little, look at our current situation in Afghanistan we use a metric **** ton of fortifications (dam near modern castles) I am just pointing out his deficiencies which is why he posted here with just a couple ideas or changes you could have a very reliable and defensible base. Fortifications are a force multiplier if you can understand how this particular force multiplier works your good. and even though the germans bypassed magino it still held out until the end of the war mainly because it was to much trouble to take but still.


----------



## Denton

ApexPredator said:


> Paul
> I beg to differ a little, look at our current situation in Afghanistan we use a metric **** ton of fortifications (dam near modern castles) I am just pointing out his deficiencies which is why he posted here with just a couple ideas or changes you could have a very reliable and defensible base. Fortifications are a force multiplier if you can understand how this particular force multiplier works your good. and even though the germans bypassed magino it still held out until the end of the war mainly because it was to much trouble to take but still.


I gots drones, that place is crap.

Don't you gots drones?

Let me guess; John now has ADA as well as real snipers, infrared cameras, motion detection wires, passive ultrasonic and sentry dogs.

Crap. This is going to be a tough nut to crap. Still, I think, you, SAR and me can take it, if RPD will be the team leader.


----------



## bigdogbuc

Okay, I want to change my answer.

I would attack it like Ninja!!!


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## SAR-1L

Here is the biggest problem John. Even if you were able to create your "New Eden" and become king.
3/4th's of the people who invest in this will never make it there. Most will die on the way.

Something I am sure if you have any sense already know and are hoping for.

But do us all a favor and don't try to give us this bullshit about saving lives.
Isn't a person here convinced you care about anything but your pocket book.

Plus not one of us here is dumb enough to shack up with 999 other strangers
and trust that 1/10 won't slit the throat of the other 9/10 in their sleep.

I know you think you are God's gift to prepping, but to the rest of us your just
another prep-poser looking for people who will put cash in your pocket through
a donation site.


----------



## Seneca

How would I attack this? I wouldn't because I know human nature and the odd favor that it would simply fall from within. Live and let live. So yeah...I wouldn't mess with your castle and hope you let me pass in peace. 
Boss the plane...Yes tattoo lets go greet our guests.


----------



## John Oscar

Thanks for the post prep.



Prepadoodle said:


> You would be in a fixed position while I would have mobility. I would snipe the guards off your walls a few at a time, in a war of attrition. You would eventually run out of people willing to get on the walls or in your towers. Next, I would take out your cameras and blind you. Any crews sent out to fix the cams would come under fire.


There is no arguing with this, snipers are a very tuff nut to crack, this would also be my first wave if attacking any group, even if alone. Honestly the only answer i can come up with is the investment the facility would have made in a couple of 50 cal rifles and hope like hell with the help of our cameras, and drones our snipers could make up for your advantages. If you have a group large enough to set an ambush then hopefully we can find a few of them and change your mind about attacking. cammeras would be along the lines of this

Ultra 5K Fixed Camera

But have not decided on exact model, if we can find you or a member of your group we can find more of you and can somewhat track your movements, making an assault on your force more likely to be successful, Hopefully we would have the edge on communications and could use that to our advantage as well. I would hope that we would know the terrain better than you but if you spent a few days learning it before you started shooting this would not be guaranteed either.



Prepadoodle said:


> I would expect you to send out patrols to push me back, so you should expect to be ambushed a lot. If you pursue me, expect me to delay to a passage of lines and ambush you some more.


Hopefully the patrols would get you to reveal your positions and we could track/snipe you from there, honestly our best snipers would be a precious commodity, and would no be on the walls or in a tower unless a threat had been identified, and probably not until a target location is confirmed. If a facility could get a properly trained sniper his primary duty would be training others that show the skills. I had a chance to go to sniper school when I was in the infantry but the 82nd has or had a policy that a LT has to have some kind of school before they can be promoted, so the one that just failed jumpmaster for the second time took my slot. Was what I was told anyway.



Prepadoodle said:


> I would then start lobbing stuff over your walls. This would be mostly Molotov type devices, but smoke, tear gas, or chlorine gas bombs would also be used. These would be mostly to weaken your will to resist me.


is a long way to propel these devices, but yea if you managed to kill everyone we had that could shoot i could see it happening, would be a lot of kills tho, and a lot of chances for us to locate your position.



Prepadoodle said:


> As far as breaching your walls... well, that's the easy part. Once your guards are gone, all it would take is a few ladders. I would probably do something to keep you awake for 4 or 5 days straight, then hit you with a concentrated assault over the walls.


I would hope that once in their safe-rooms our people would feel comfortable enough to sleep and do their guard rotations.



Prepadoodle said:


> If I had a tank, helicopter, a few rockets or some artillery, things get a lot easier, but nothing high tech would be required. All I really need are time and the will. Remember Dien Bien Phu? Fixed positions are death when faced with a determined opponent.


If our snipers win, you would need heavy weapons, you have to remember that the people who would have rented the units would be preppers, I personally think as a group, this entire group is better than the average bear.



Prepadoodle said:


> On the other hand, I personally would bypass you and look for greener pastures, as I'm sure most would.


So would I.


----------



## PaulS

ApexPredator said:


> Paul
> I beg to differ a little, look at our current situation in Afghanistan we use a metric **** ton of fortifications (dam near modern castles) I am just pointing out his deficiencies which is why he posted here with just a couple ideas or changes you could have a very reliable and defensible base. Fortifications are a force multiplier if you can understand how this particular force multiplier works your good. and even though the germans bypassed magino it still held out until the end of the war mainly because it was to much trouble to take but still.


Yes we use fortified areas - but do they have the outside protection of the military forces in theater? Of course they do. Our embasies are also fortified (though to a lesser degree) but our military can only help them with the permission of both governments involved.


----------



## Old SF Guy

WOW!...Seems like alot has happened since I first posted here.... Lots of anger and name calling and such....Almost like I was posting here a few days ago....but I'm a nicer guy these last couple of days. SO John...I'm not going to attack your intentions...You say you are doing it for the huddled masses, etc...May be true enough...I don't know you so I won't even go there. SO assuming you have the best of intentions...let me add a few points to ponder. True enough People are starting to wake up to the possibility of a bad situation that before Preppers were scoffed at for believing in. So now more people are looking for the nest egg of life sustaining substance..and many of these half hearted preppers will half heartedly approach it, which means they may rent your container space, cause they have money, and they don;t want to a) openly start living like they are prepping, and b) their time is to valuable to be spent maintaining it...and to those with no concept of warfare, etc, a fort appears to be a good idea since you have advertised the inherent security forces, etc. So I believe you would get some business, maybe even alot, especially as these folks began to tell their friends about how they were prepared and had a special hide away fortress to go too...that way they could be surrounded by people of their class and stature. Now here is where it starts to get a little ugly...THis type of prepper is about themselves. Although not an actual prepper leader, they run their own lives and will not be ruled by anyone, after all they made money from investments or smart business practices and they will demand a counsel of peers lead this group...Like a Board of directors...and there will be a CEO and a COO, etc. Run it like a business. Now if you ever watched Hollywood wives or LA wives or other...you know this type...they scheme, and plot against each other to gain favor/power etc...so imagine that times 1000 people. Now bring on the security forces....ah now they have family to right? Well these folks would just be considered to be the hired help by the upper class of folks and steps would be taken to make sure they aren't harassing them or acting to militant towards the upper class...So you have a choice...either martial rule or civilian leadership/counsel. Now cue the refugees. You will get a lot of them...They aren't going to want to work for you without protection and you can't protect them while they are outside. SO they may trade with you...but there will be some bitter resentment...especially when they see the upper class in their white linens living high on the hog. Also their will be disease and crime, and other shit to deal with. examples will be made and more animosity created. Even without me intentionally trying to create problems...this structure will create its own. The middle ages up until the French revolution...and including 3rd world countries today (Somalia) prove this to be true. Now I haven't even gotten into why I would want what you have...but I can tell you that you are surrounding yourself with refugees who already want what you have...your food, your livestock...your nice pretty breast enhanced women folk, your electricity, your weapons, your stuff...all of it. My next post will be about why I would bother attacking you and the different ways I would accomplish it...and the reasons do matter and dictate the how.....


----------



## ApexPredator

I dont think a single one of your counter points actually counters anything. You need a change of tactics/strategy not more tech at least not any that's commercially available.

PS I wouldnt pass this by if I didnt have a sustainable base and had a few extra rounds handy.


----------



## SAR-1L

ApexPredator said:


> I dont think a single one of your counter points actually counters anything. You need a change of tactics/strategy not more tech at least not any that's commercially available.
> 
> PS I wouldnt pass this by if I didnt have a sustainable base and had a few extra rounds handy.


Oh but Apex, don't you know in today's world throw a couple million at a problem and it solves itself, just like
Iraq, Afganistan, Syria, Ukraine, etc. etc... I mean Look at America, money has fixed so many problems we are
now 17 trillion + dollars in debt and as jobless as ever!

Oh yeah and technology, just like our smart phones, we are more connected than ever, that is why no one says
hello to anyone anymore. They just stare at their screen and wait for it to wipe their ass, make them a sandwich
and tell them they look pretty. lol


----------



## ApexPredator

SF I think he was gonna advertise them for pretty cheap but you would still have class issues and Americans are pretty self entitled any damn ways. Either way he just doesnt have the tactics for it hes treating in like an impregnable fortress he should think of it as a support base with defenses.

Paul where do you think the military lives in Afghanistan in a system of mutually supporting fortifications now granted we have air power/movement but I was stationed in a place so fukin remote air couldnt get there for 1 to 2 hours and was often out of the question completely without reinforcements and the next nearest base was 3 hours by truck through mountains that were impassable in winter those fortifications saved our asses so many times and eventually deterred them from attacking more as we continued to improve them so the concept is valid its just hard to apply without the experience. fortifications are just as valid today as they ever were but like the civil war tech outpaced tactics and they were thought of as "outdated" but the concept remains unchanged and still applicable.


----------



## ApexPredator

SAR i believe the money throwing has indeed accomplished its desired effects only problem is the planners dont really want us around and we arnt very happy with them either


----------



## Kauboy

I have no mind to read 12 pages on such a topic. Within walls, your resources would be limited and fragile. I'd recon your water supply, locate the source, and infect it. The place would be mine within the month.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Outdoor Forums mobile app


----------



## Old SF Guy

On second thought I will not post the whys...thats irrelevant at this point...and even if the rent is cheap...which I do not see how it could be too cheap since it has to be maintained and secured and equipped and its over a million to build so operating costs would be high while waiting for STHTF....maybe subsidizing by the crops and stuff...but regardless...those folks are a class, the security are another class and the refugees are a third class...the issues are the same.


----------



## Seneca

Don't you get it, he is describing a caliphate! wise up people.


----------



## Denton

ApexPredator said:


> I dont think a single one of your counter points actually counters anything. You need a change of tactics/strategy not more tech at least not any that's commercially available.
> 
> PS I wouldnt pass this by if I didnt have a sustainable base and had a few extra rounds handy.


That's the thing. He needs money, yet he can come up with any sort of tech gear he can find on the internet.

Take a look at what the dream looks like. This is a link to John's site. Contemplate the living quarters...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/castle-storage-farms?show_todos=true#gallery


----------



## Denton

Professionals have looked at his dream, yet only two people have donated to the idea, to a total of 30 bucks? What does that amount to; two indigent professionals?


----------



## SAR-1L

Denton said:


> That's the thing. He needs money, yet he can come up with any sort of tech gear he can find on the internet.
> 
> Take a look at what the dream looks like. This is a link to John's site. Contemplate the living quarters...
> 
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/castle-storage-farms?show_todos=true#gallery


Dude Denton!

Does that not look like a ****ing FEMA camp. Maybe John is trying to trick us to fund a government project
to build an internment camp, and put those who sponsor it under martial law in a remote location. Kinda like
a ****ed up social experiment lol.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> Here is the biggest problem John. Even if you were able to create your "New Eden" and become king.
> 3/4th's of the people who invest in this will never make it there. Most will die on the way.


This would not be one fortress, it would be a lot of them, you would rent from the one closest to you, if the closest is farther than you think you would be willing to travel or could travel, then do not rent.



SAR-1L said:


> Something I am sure if you have any sense already know and are hoping for.


If everyone made it, we would be pushing the aquaponics farm, but could accommodate them all, if some did not make it, which is likely for any BOL, the extra production would be taken up by refugee kids, or food given to them to help them get started.



SAR-1L said:


> But do us all a favor and don't try to give us this bullshit about saving lives.
> Isn't a person here convinced you care about anything but your pocket book.


It really is sad that you think like this Sar, I do not know what to tell you, is like me calling you a racist, now prove your not, the more you try to defend yourself the more guilty you look.



SAR-1L said:


> Plus not one of us here is dumb enough to shack up with 999 other strangers
> and trust that 1/10 won't slit the throat of the other 9/10 in their sleep.


You sleep in your safe room, you should probably lock the door.



SAR-1L said:


> I know you think you are God's gift to prepping, but to the rest of us your just
> another prep-poser looking for people who will put cash in your pocket through
> a donation site.


If I thought I was gods gift to prepping I would not be looking for advice, if I was looking for money I would have left this site a long time ago instead of hitting 10 pages of back and forth with you.


----------



## ApexPredator

Nice video if this is one of those crowd fundings that give you what you raise no matter what I hand it to you for finding the worst way to make 20$ ever seriously man you should at least give it a couple grand of your own money to get the ball rolling so people dont think your crazy and remember crowd funding is very liberal anyways your prolly scarein the shit outta them.


----------



## Denton

John, aquaponics will not work in a SHTF scenario. Even I am smart enough to know that.



> You sleep in your safe room, you should probably lock the door.


Anyone smart enough to recognize your crap is sleeping in a safe room. What did someone say about you thinking you are smarter than the rest of us?

Your crap is just that. Crap.


----------



## Denton

Are people to live in the walls of the construction?


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> If I thought I was gods gift to prepping I would not be looking for advice,
> if I was looking for money I would have left this site a long time ago instead of hitting 10 pages of back and forth with you.


So to sum this up... You want to build and be a Racist King or Emperor of multiple FEMA internment camps across the US.
Well I hate to tell you man, Obama beat you to it! You are behind the curve, an election day late, and 1.25 million short. lol


----------



## Denton

Anyone ever walked into a conex in the summer, for any reason?


----------



## ApexPredator

If you sandbag the holy hell out of them you can insulate them a bit and turn them into a cave but then you wouldn't really need the connex anymore would you. 

Yes I have but Id rather sleep under a tarp day or night in summer


----------



## John Oscar

Thanks for the post SF



Old SF Guy said:


> let me add a few points to ponder. True enough People are starting to wake up to the possibility of a bad situation that before Preppers were scoffed at for believing in. So now more people are looking for the nest egg of life sustaining substance..and many of these half hearted preppers will half heartedly approach it, which means they may rent your container space, cause they have money, and they don;t want to a) openly start living like they are prepping, and b) their time is to valuable to be spent maintaining it...and to those with no concept of warfare, etc, a fort appears to be a good idea since you have advertised the inherent security forces, etc. So I believe you would get some business, maybe even alot, especially as these folks began to tell their friends about how they were prepared and had a special hide away fortress to go too...that way they could be surrounded by people of their class and stature. Now here is where it starts to get a little ugly...THis type of prepper is about themselves. Although not an actual prepper leader, they run their own lives and will not be ruled by anyone, after all they made money from investments or smart business practices and they will demand a counsel of peers lead this group...Like a Board of directors...and there will be a CEO and a COO, etc. Run it like a business.


The rich would go to something like VIVOS, and i hope that company is not renting the same space to hundreds of people. With no way to verify I could just not see it happening.



Old SF Guy said:


> Now bring on the security forces....ah now they have family to right? Well these folks would just be considered to be the hired help by the upper class of folks and steps would be taken to make sure they aren't harassing them or acting to militant towards the upper class...So you have a choice...either martial rule or civilian leadership/counsel.


The security forces, police and assault team are renters just like everyone else, some people with desired or skills deemed mandatory would receive cheaper rent could even be free depending on needs, and become instructors in a SHTF situation for their daily jobs, but everyone will have a daily job even if it is just guard duty on the wall. If someone thinks they are to good to do their job, well that would not be my call, it would take a majority vote probably by 2/3rds of the renters to give them the boot, lesser punishments would be decided by the judiciary panel, one elected official from each wall, if they tie then the president (myself or the franchise owner) would make the call, otherwise it is up to them.



Old SF Guy said:


> Now cue the refugees. You will get a lot of them...They aren't going to want to work for you without protection and you can't protect them while they are outside.


They would live in a protected area of their own



Old SF Guy said:


> SO they may trade with you...but there will be some bitter resentment...especially when they see the upper class in their white linens living high on the hog.


I do not think anyone at one of these facilities after SHTF would be living high on the hog, including myself. but i understand your point.



Old SF Guy said:


> Also their will be disease and crime, and other shit to deal with. examples will be made and more animosity created. Even without me intentionally trying to create problems...this structure will create its own. The middle ages up until the French revolution...and including 3rd world countries today (Somalia) prove this to be true.


I realise that there will be a ton of issues to deal with, I just think the issues at this facility would be easier to fix than dragging women and children behind a mobile strike force that would be susceptible to most of the same issues anyway.



Old SF Guy said:


> Now I haven't even gotten into why I would want what you have...but I can tell you that you are surrounding yourself with refugees who already want what you have...your food, your livestock...your nice pretty breast enhanced women folk, your electricity, your weapons, your stuff...all of it. My next post will be about why I would bother attacking you and the different ways I would accomplish it...and the reasons do matter and dictate the how.....


I am really looking forward to this post, thanks again for taking the time to write it.


----------



## Denton

ApexPredator said:


> If you sandbag the holy hell out of them you can insulate them a bit and turn them into a cave but then you wouldn't really need the connex anymore would you.
> 
> Yes I have but Id rather sleep under a tarp day or night in summer


It's take thousands of bags to insulate the walls of conexes. Good thing there are serfs to use as bag-filling slaves.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> So to sum this up... You want to build and be a Racist King or Emperor of multiple FEMA internment camps across the US.
> Well I hate to tell you man, Obama beat you to it! You are behind the curve, an election day late, and 1.25 million short. lol


Ok this was funny


----------



## Denton

> The security forces, police and assault team are renters just like everyone else, some people with desired or skills deemed mandatory would receive cheaper rent could even be free depending on needs, and become instructors in a SHTF situation for their daily jobs, but everyone will have a daily job even if it is just guard duty on the wall. If someone thinks they are to good to do their job, well that would not be my call, it would take a majority vote probably by 2/3rds of the renters to give them the boot, lesser punishments would be decided by the judiciary panel, one elected official from each wall, if they tie then the president (myself or the franchise owner) would make the call, otherwise it is up to them.


Security will be determined by a majority vote? This is the most stupid thing I have heard in the last 72 hours. Really.

Wouldn't make a difference, because your idea wouldn't work, even if you had nothing but security experts on the walls. Yes, I am a security expert. Well beyond any infantry EM or supply sergeant, I assure you.

No, I will not give you free consultation. Some people here are more than willing to be unpaid consultants, but I will not.

There is no "professional" who thinks this idea is sound, except when things are under your specific conditions, with the specific personnel and with a crap-load of money. Money, along with those professionals, seems to be in short supply.


----------



## John Oscar

Denton said:


> Anyone ever walked into a conex in the summer, for any reason?


This is another benefit of the 10" thick sand filled wall on the outside, the inside is a greenhouse with basic solar screening and cooling pads, this would be supplemented by air pumped through underground pipes.

No it will not be airconditioning, and I have no doubt that many will opt to sleep on a cot placed atop the walls.


----------



## Denton

John Oscar said:


> Ok this was funny


Not funny; it was scornful. Call it for what it is. Nothing but scorn. A wall of conexes around an unsustainable aquaponics garden, surrounded by serfs that wouldn't even be much of a speed bump for those with an iota of training and a decent leader.

You know, John, I think your idea is stupid. As a matter of fact, I'd take your little castle down for the sheer spite of it if you were to somehow build one in southeast Alabama. Though, I doubt any will be built anywhere.


----------



## Denton

John Oscar said:


> This is another benefit of the 10" thick sand filled wall on the outside, the inside is a greenhouse with basic solar screening and cooling pads, this would be supplemented by air pumped through underground pipes.
> 
> No it will not be airconditioning, and I have no doubt that many will opt to sleep on a cot placed atop the walls.


Yeah, and the Hebrews are going to build this for you. After all, they are done serving the Egyptians.

You are pulling things out of your ear as you go, with no plan or funding.

Now, tell me how you already planned on piping the underground cooled air through each conex. Yeah, and the filtration, while you are at it.

Full of total crap. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here. The prototype will take millions, and it will still not satisfy the security needs. You might know how to order a cot through the military system (I know how to order a helicopter; who cares?) but I know security. It, alone would take more personnel that you can house. Not that you'd get such experts to join your castle. They know better.


----------



## John Oscar

Denton said:


> Security will be determined by a majority vote? This is the most stupid thing I have heard in the last 72 hours. Really.


throwing someone out of the compound would be a majority vote since i would consider it the equivalent to the death penalty.



Denton said:


> Wouldn't make a difference, because your idea wouldn't work, even if you had nothing but security experts on the walls. Yes, I am a security expert. Well beyond any infantry EM or supply sergeant, I assure you.
> 
> No, I will not give you free consultation. Some people here are more than willing to be unpaid consultants, but I will not.


Look I am not making anyone do anything, I am asking for advice, if you think it will not work and do not want to help that is fine but the chances of me dropping this idea because you say for some unknown reason it will not work, well, it is probably not going to happen.



Denton said:


> There is no "professional" who thinks this idea is sound, except when things are under your specific conditions, with the specific personnel and with a crap-load of money. Money, along with those professionals, seems to be in short supply.


250 units at $100 a month each is 25k monthly, then you would add anything you got from internet sales and direct delivery to the facility (including temp storage) and safe-room upgrades that could be ordered online as well, then the sale of produce and fish, paying the same tax rate as a farm on the property ect. you would need a staff of 6 to run the facility, personally I think you still have room for a few upgrades, even if they are drones that cost 1k each, is not like you need a fleet of them.


----------



## John Oscar

Denton said:


> Yeah, You are pulling things out of your ear as you go, with no plan or funding.


I did mention the sand filled interior wall a few times prior



Denton said:


> Now, tell me how you already planned on piping the underground cooled air through each conex. Yeah, and the filtration, while you are at it.


Nothing would be piped into each container unless it was special ordered or done by the renter, all facility efforts at cooling would be for the greenhouse in general.

Ok you all have beat me down pretty good, damn hard keeping up with the posts and it is waaaay past my bedtime, have a good one.

BTW 15 pages in how many hours ? that has got to be a record !!!


----------



## ApexPredator

lol irrationality is undefeated thats a record


----------



## Prepadoodle

John Oscar said:


> ...this would be supplemented by air pumped through underground pipes.


Probably not a great idea because that would produce an ideal environment for mold, which you don't want to breathe. It's better to pump liquid and run it through a heat exchanger, which could be as simple as a car radiator and a fan.

As far as you finding my location and attacking me... I wouldn't have a fixed position, so good luck with that. Also, if I could take the guards off your walls with snipers, even the most sophisticated camera systems could be neutralized with a can of spray paint. Keep in mind that I wouldn't try to take your base in a day or a week. I would lay an extended siege and grind you down over time.

Consider planning to produce an abundance of seeds and then distributing them freely to those in the surrounding countryside. Having allies all around your bases would help to defeat my style of attack by giving you additional sources for intel.


----------



## Denton

That also makes no sense. Ventilation is not something you can pump here, not there, but somewhere else in a perimeter. Even if, what are the dead bodies in the non-ventilated conexes going to do for you? Clearly, you have not been in a such an environment for more than a few minutes.

Advice? You are looking for advice? Really? How much are you willing to pay? After all, you are looking to make money, right? You don't give two hoots in hell of people live or die; you are looking for money. Over a million dollars. You claim professionals have told you that you have a good idea. This one says it is stupid. Several others have said the same thing.

You are really full of it. You know this, supply sarge.

Look at your web site. Is there a thing there that would cause anyone to think you have a good idea? No. Not a damned thing. It isn't even as much as generic. It doesn't even amount to as much as a decent con job.

You don't want to drop the idea. Doesn't even look look like you are worried about the idea, so much as you are about getting idiots to donate money. Clearly, you have no idea.

Anyone can submit a patent.

Anyone can claim "professionals" have blessed an idea.

Anyone create a website.

Anyone can ask for donations.

Anyone can start threads on message boards.

I had quite a bit of patience with this crap, but the bullshit flag finally came out of my back pocket.

This is moronic, and you know it. You are simply hoping other people don't realize it.

As far as your "All I want to do is feed the poor" crap goes; gardening, hydroponics and aquaponics isn't new. I think I know who you really want to feed.


----------



## nephilim

Your plan is getting to be more costly than $1.25m. Gas masks for 1000 people. That is around $30k for cheap ones with bulk discounts.

Food for 1000 people. 
For one year you would need 1000 cows or 6000 chickens or 30'000 eggs a year to cover the protein.
Grain wise (for flour or for bread etc) you would need 1kg of wheat to produce 500g of flour. 4 people can share 1 loaf of bread using 500g of flour each. For this you would need 250kgs of wheat per day to sustain your group. Over a year this equates too 91312.5kgs of wheat per year. To generate that sort of yeald you need around 60 acres or so of land.
Vegetables for the human body. Let's say the average person will have 1 carrot, 10 peas, 1 tomato, 2 strawberries and an apple a day. For the peas, tomatoes and strawberries you wouldn't need too much space as these are vine plants and can be grown anywhere. They'd be useful hedges against the 60 acres of land you need for the wheat so that's sorted. The carrots at 1 a day for a year, for 1000 people is 365000 carrots. You can grow (safely) 30 carrots in 1m square. So you'd need 12 square metres per person for the carrots. For 1000 people you'd need 12000 square metres, or an additional 3 acres of land. 
Dairy, well you could use the above cows and eggs.

So right now you are looking at 63 acres of land before you look at grazing land for the animals. Let's say 1000 cows will need a further 50 acres of land. 6000 chickens in free range conditions would need around 7 acres. So now you are looking at 120 acres of land before recreational activities or cool down areas etc. That is a lot of land to run security on. Bare in mind this is for basic rations for 1 year of a quarter loaf of bread a day, 16 chickens per person per year, 1 cow per person per year, and 30 eggs per person per year, as well as the fruit and vegetables I said above.

I don't know how you will guard such a large space without using the 1000 people you expect to live there to do it, without any additional hands for farming etc (which will drive up your requirements).

Buying 120 acres of good growing land would be around $600'000 or so (averaged price of land across the continental US). 

Now 1000 rifles each (as a last ditch defense and everyone is required to help) is $300 per rifle if buying cheaply. That's $300'000.

Seeds and equipment for the farmland, well a combine harvester for the wheat is around $400'000. Hydroponics equipment for this sort of scale would be say another $20'000. Seeds would be another $5000 conservatively.

Ammunition for the rifles. Let's say 1000 per person. $100 per pack of 1000 with bulk buying discount. This is $100'000.

Buying the livestock, cow calves would be around $500 each at the cheap end. You would want different breeds and families to prevent inbreeding. But you'd still need 1000 to ensure continuity of livestock so that's around $500'000 for cows.

Chickens are much cheaper at around $8 each at 1 month old. So 6000 would be around $48'000. They'd supply your eggs for sure. But you'd need roosters to ensure you get new chicks every so often to replace the ones you eat. 

Next are your shipping containers. They're rough $2000 each for a standard sized one. You'd want around 3 per person as a minimum so that's $6'000. For 1000 people that's $600'000.

The. Your security equipment, maintenance equipment, and other accoutrements let's say around $60'000 conservatively l.

So now, all of this together is

Land - $600'000
Weapons - $300'000
Ammo - $100'000
Livestock - 548'000
Seeds - $5'000
Equipment - $420'000
Shipping containers - $600'000
Extras - $60'000

Now the total for this lot is $2'633'000. This is over double what you're asking for and all I've found is all online. Your research is lacking. Stop posting about it here as frankly, I've done 2 lots of Internet searches and put holes in your idea so badly that it could be used as a sieve.


Edit reason: fixed grammar and spelling.


----------



## Maine-Marine

Orcs and Goblins....

and I would wear my RING


----------



## John Oscar

Prepadoodle said:


> Probably not a great idea because that would produce an ideal environment for mold, which you don't want to breathe. It's better to pump liquid and run it through a heat exchanger, which could be as simple as a car radiator and a fan.


I do like the idea of a heat exchanger, sounds like somthing else i should look into.



Prepadoodle said:


> As far as you finding my location and attacking me... I wouldn't have a fixed position, so good luck with that. Also, if I could take the guards off your walls with snipers, even the most sophisticated camera systems could be neutralized with a can of spray paint. Keep in mind that I wouldn't try to take your base in a day or a week. I would lay an extended siege and grind you down over time.


Trained snipers have always been and always will be a major threat for any group, if you have a group big enough to take the fortress then my goal would be to locate one of them with the cameras, follow him while looking for others and relay the intel to the assault team/sniper.



Prepadoodle said:


> Consider planning to produce an abundance of seeds and then distributing them freely to those in the surrounding countryside. Having allies all around your bases would help to defeat my style of attack by giving you additional sources for intel.


I really do not think people farming will survive very long without something to defend them, it takes a lot of food to feed a large marauding group, maybe one of these farms every few days. I really do hope I am wrong but I just don't see people getting along when half will actually starve to death. I do understand the hearts and minds thing tho and if we have neighbors, I would be happy to help them.


----------



## Guest

It's my precioussss!!!

John, if you really want to help people you can donate to charities to feed people now..just saying, it's a option. 

Out of curiosity why are you going to help all these people ? Also why make it a democracy?


----------



## Innkeeper

ApexPredator said:


> Paul
> I beg to differ a little, look at our current situation in Afghanistan we use a metric **** ton of fortifications (dam near modern castles) I am just pointing out his deficiencies which is why he posted here with just a couple ideas or changes you could have a very reliable and defensible base. Fortifications are a force multiplier if you can understand how this particular force multiplier works your good. and even though the germans bypassed magino it still held out until the end of the war mainly because it was to much trouble to take but still.


You are correct about the FOB's pretty much being castles, but we do send mobile units out to sweep the area of bad guys and have Artillery support, none of which J.O.'s Castle has unless he has failed to tell us about it.


----------



## Innkeeper

Seneca said:


> How would I attack this? I wouldn't because I know human nature and the odd favor that it would simply fall from within. Live and let live. So yeah...I wouldn't mess with your castle and hope you let me pass in peace.
> Boss the plane...Yes tattoo lets go greet our guests.


Nice Fantasy Island reference, but I think your dating yourself....though it may date me too. lol


----------



## John Oscar

Denton said:


> That also makes no sense. Ventilation is not something you can pump here, not there, but somewhere else in a perimeter. Even if, what are the dead bodies in the non-ventilated conexes going to do for you? Clearly, you have not been in a such an environment for more than a few minutes.


A connex heats up just like any other piece of metal in direct sunlight, none of this metal will ever be in direct sunlight



Denton said:


> Advice? You are looking for advice? Really? How much are you willing to pay? After all, you are looking to make money, right? You don't give two hoots in hell of people live or die; you are looking for money. Over a million dollars. You claim professionals have told you that you have a good idea. This one says it is stupid. Several others have said the same thing.


I have said, that professionals said, the patent was good. Who is looking for money here ?



Denton said:


> Look at your web site. Is there a thing there that would cause anyone to think you have a good idea? No.  Not a damned thing. It isn't even as much as generic. It doesn't even amount to as much as a decent con job.


Maybe this is because it is not.



Denton said:


> Anyone can submit a patent.
> 
> Anyone can claim "professionals" have blessed an idea.
> 
> Anyone create a website.
> 
> Anyone can ask for donations.
> 
> Anyone can start threads on message boards.


Yep anyone can do a lot of things, few do, some settle for yelling at computer screens.



Denton said:


> This is moronic, and you know it. You are simply hoping other people don't realize it.


If I was worried about others realising some great pearl of wisdom you might give, I would not still be talking to you, or perhaps I would have resorted to your petty insults.



Denton said:


> As far as your "All I want to do is feed the poor" crap goes; gardening, hydroponics and aquaponics isn't new. I think I know who you really want to feed.


Never said all I want to do is feed the poor, I simply stated the fact that if you can produce a lot of something the price of that something will go down, in this case it is healthy organic food. So yes access to quality food for the poor would be a welcome side effect.


----------



## Innkeeper

SAR-1L said:


> Dude Denton!
> 
> Does that not look like a ****ing FEMA camp. Maybe John is trying to trick us to fund a government project
> to build an internment camp, and put those who sponsor it under martial law in a remote location. Kinda like
> a ****ed up social experiment lol.


SO are you saying maybe he is creating Vault-Tec to create the types of Social Experiments we have seen in the Many Fallout games?


----------



## SARGE7402

maybe if you were to build your prototype in northern Georgia we could get resister to stand outside and talk you all to death::rambo::


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## nephilim

My post glossed over again? Lol


----------



## John Oscar

nephilim said:


> Your plan is getting to be more costly than $1.25m. Gas masks for 1000 people. That is around $30k for cheap ones with bulk discounts.


I have no plan to equip everyone with masks, we will have some extras, but anyone renting would be a prepper, if they do not have their own mask that is their choice.



nephilim said:


> Food for 1000 people.
> For one year you would need 1000 cows or 6000 chickens or 30'000 eggs a year to cover the protein.
> Grain wise (for flour or for bread etc) you would need 1kg of wheat to produce 500g of flour. 4 people can share 1 loaf of bread using 500g of flour each. For this you would need 250kgs of wheat per day to sustain your group. Over a year this equates too 91312.5kgs of wheat per year. To generate that sort of yeald you need around 60 acres or so of land.
> Vegetables for the human body. Let's say the average person will have 1 carrot, 10 peas, 1 tomato, 2 strawberries and an apple a day. For the peas, tomatoes and strawberries you wouldn't need too much space as these are vine plants and can be grown anywhere. They'd be useful hedges against the 60 acres of land you need for the wheat so that's sorted. The carrots at 1 a day for a year, for 1000 people is 365000 carrots. You can grow (safely) 30 carrots in 1m square. So you'd need 12 square metres per person for the carrots. For 1000 people you'd need 12000 square metres, or an additional 3 acres of land.
> Dairy, well you could use the above cows and eggs.


You really should look into modern aquaponics, and duckweed, a greenhouse this size can produce a lot of fish and produce, 365 days a year. I do know off hand that a decent chicken depending on age will produce 200 eggs a year, some as much as 300 a year, 6000 chickens ? We would have basic starter pairs of animals but it would take a while for them to be able to harvested for food. I never said people would be getting 4 course meals and brunch ect, I said they would get enough food to live on. That is a very good visual representation of food though, makes me think a group of marauders would have to keep moving to feed everyone and not have time for an extensive siege.



nephilim said:


> So right now you are looking at 63 acres of land before you look at grazing land for the animals. Let's say 1000 cows will need a further 50 acres of land. 6000 chickens in free range conditions would need around 7 acres. So now you are looking at 120 acres of land before recreational activities or cool down areas etc. That is a lot of land to run security on. Bare in mind this is for basic rations for 1 year of a quarter loaf of bread a day, 16 chickens per person per year, 1 cow per person per year, and 30 eggs per person per year, as well as the fruit and vegetables I said above.


still not understanding the egg math, your saying a chicken would only lay 5 eggs a year each ? Also I have stated that as land was needed we would expand after SHTF, it is the only way the numbers work.



nephilim said:


> I don't know how you will guard such a large space without using the 1000 people you expect to live there to do it, without any additional hands for farming etc (which will drive up your requirements).


The 1000 people will be guards and taking care of the duties inside the facility, everyone will have a job.



nephilim said:


> Buying 120 acres of good growing land would be around $600'000 or so (averaged price of land across the continental US).


You should get the stats for texas, only need 50 acres. Franchise costs do not include land.



nephilim said:


> Now 1000 rifles each (as a last ditch defense and everyone is required to help) is $300 per rifle if buying cheaply. That's $300'000.


Once again we rent to preppers, I do not know of a prepper without a gun, we would have some extra but our primary facility focus on weapons would reload ability for standard rounds and the sniper rifles.



nephilim said:


> Seeds and equipment for the farmland, well a combine harvester for the wheat is around $400'000. Hydroponics equipment for this sort of scale would be say another $20'000. Seeds would be another $5000 conservatively.


Have no plan to buy a combine, would need basic hand farm tools tho.



nephilim said:


> Ammunition for the rifles. Let's say 1000 per person. $100 per pack of 1000 with bulk buying discount. This is $100'000.


once again we would be focused on reloading the ammunition, we would have a quite a bit of the standard calibers we reload tho.



nephilim said:


> Buying the livestock, cow calves would be around $500 each at the cheap end. You would want different breeds and families to prevent inbreeding. But you'd still need 1000 to ensure continuity of livestock so that's around $500'000 for cows.


Honestly other than maybe some milk cows, I have no intention of going this route, would probably go with a few goats to start, they could take care of lawn maintenance.



nephilim said:


> Chickens are much cheaper at around $8 each at 1 month old. So 6000 would be around $48'000. They'd supply your eggs for sure. But you'd need roosters to ensure you get new chicks every so often to replace the ones you eat.


About 30/40 chickens to start, mainly for the poo, duckweed loves that stuff.



nephilim said:


> Next are your shipping containers. They're rough $2000 each for a standard sized one. You'd want around 3 per person as a minimum so that's $6'000. For 1000 people that's $600'000.


3 8'X8'X40' containers per person ? including children ? I am not promising dining rooms and stuff, barely a fraction of that, one unit is big enough for you to sleep in and build a hell of a safe room if you choose, if you need more space you have to rent or buy more.



nephilim said:


> The. Your security equipment, maintenance equipment, and other accoutrements let's say around $60'000 conservatively


Including commo this one is about right.



nephilim said:


> So now, all of this together is


not even close


----------



## Seneca

A couple of years ago there was a fellow wanting to buy up some property here in Idaho and do something quite similar to what Oscar is suggesting. It made the local news and then disappeared. I think the idea got shot down and the fellow was told no and sent packing. It seem strange to ask, but was that you Oscar...


----------



## nephilim

My eggs count was missing a zero...so that's my mistake. Battery hens lay close to 200 a year because of the way they're subjected to light treatments. Free range ones do between a quarter and half of that.


----------



## nephilim

I'll comment on the rest later when I'm at home or tomorrow when at work.


----------



## John Oscar

nightshade said:


> John, if you really want to help people you can donate to charities to feed people now..just saying, it's a option.


I really don't think with the obesity problems in america, the amount of food is an issue, it is the quality of the food.



nightshade said:


> Out of curiosity why are you going to help all these people ?


The more people survive the faster we will recover, 6 months ago I would have honestly been a hunter till starvation set in them become a predator. The fewer predators we have out there the better off everyone including myself will be.



nightshade said:


> Also why make it a democracy?


I believe the US constitution is one of the greatest documents ever created, if it was actually followed, the US would be unstoppable, petty dictators fall all over the place.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Have no plan to buy a combine, would need basic hand farm tools tho.


Have you ever harvested wheat by hand? DO you know how labor intensive it is? Also do not forget you need a Mill regardless of doing it by combine or hand, and do not forget the threshing process, again very labor intensive by hand. You do know a combine does it for you right?

Back in 2012 I was down at the Rock Island Arsenal as part of My CBWTU, there was a tour and dinner set up for us by the John Deere HX plant, a very impressive facility, and I learned quite about combines and their history and their functions and uses. The best part was at the end we got to drive one of those combines, was awesome, we had Dairy farms growing up so I really only drove tractors. So if you do not want a combine you better find someone with experience doing that work by hand, and those people are very scarce, you might have better luck getting OSFG to sign on to your scheme.


----------



## John Oscar

Seneca said:


> A couple of years ago there was a fellow wanting to buy up some property here in Idaho and do something quite similar to what Oscar is suggesting. It made the local news and then disappeared. I think the idea got shot down and the fellow was told no and sent packing. It seem strange to ask, but was that you Oscar...


Was not me, but if you can remember his name I would love to contact him and find out what his problems were.


----------



## Innkeeper

nephilim said:


> My eggs count was missing a zero...so that's my mistake. Battery hens lay close to 200 a year because of the way they're subjected to light treatments. Free range ones do between a quarter and half of that.


Thanks for that info I am planning to get about half a dozen for personal use I prefer the brown, blue or green eggs to white always did growing up, we had probably 2-3 dozen on the farm at any time and I can tell you I never really did pay close attention to weekly/monthly/yearly out put at that age.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> I believe the US constitution is one of the greatest documents ever created, if it was actually followed, the US would be unstoppable, petty dictators fall all over the place.


Maybe you should rethink how your going to run the place then, because your class system that you are trying to create has nothing to do with the CONSTITUTION of the United States. Again I refer you to the section which states "*ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL*"

Your plan has zero to do with equality.


----------



## John Oscar

Got to go do some of that work stuff, lol semi retired is not retired, have a good one.

Figured I should add that so none thought I was glossing them over, I really do appreciate the feedback.... most of it anyway.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Got to go do some of that work stuff, lol semi retired is not retired, have a good one.
> 
> Figured I should add that so none thought I was glossing them over, I really do appreciate the feedback.... most of it anyway.


Your breaking the Sabbath John. lol


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Maybe you should rethink how your going to run the place then, because your class system that you are trying to create has nothing to do with the CONSTITUTION of the United States. Again I refer you to the section which states "*ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL*"
> 
> Your plan has zero to do with equality.


Will get this one real quick, the fortress is the usa, everything outside the walls is mexico, we just have a smaller better defended boarder, we do have a path to legalization tho.


----------



## Seneca

John Oscar said:


> Was not me, but if you can remember his name I would love to contact him and find out what his problems were.


Here is a link to the thread.
http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/general-talk/2759-citadel.html


----------



## jimb1972

I would burn any surrounding vegetation, and if ground water is available I would bore a well and pollute it with ethylene glycol and other toxic chemicals. After destroying the land your serfs live on I would try to introduce bacterial agents to your higher than normal population inside the compound. It might be more effective to introduce bacterial agents like hoof and mouth disease or anthrax to the livestock before burning the land so you take it inside with you. If the walls can be heated enough the bed liner will produce toxic fumes. Anything to reduce morale, random mortar attacks whatever is available. Then sit back and wait out of the line of sight, but close enough to snipe at anyone outside the walls.


----------



## Innkeeper

Seneca said:


> Here is a link to the thread.
> http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/general-talk/2759-citadel.html


I checked out your link and where it went, have to agree those are the type I would prefer to stay a long way away from.


----------



## SAR-1L

*[ WARNING A LITTLE GRAPHIC ]*

The problem with this besides the concept itself is John is saying I am building a castle, attack it.
We don't have all the specs or know where it is located, cause these will supposedly be everywhere.
We also have undefined resources, but when we mention what we would use are told we would never
have that available to us and if we did we would rather use it on someone else, which once again is bullshit.

But here we go again, and I would like to take a new approach to this. Rather than simply brute force with
siege tactics.

Stage 1: ( Foothold )

The most likely case would take 4 - 6 of my best men and run operations posing as refugees. Sure you would
take their weapons and the supplies sent with them. But once trusted could begin to run random operations
and sabotage campaigns.

- Pressure cooker bombs
- Pipe bombs
- Disabling equipement
- Setting up traps that would begin to maim those who are outside of the walls.

The idea is to set up a situation in which leaving your walls is no longer an option,
that the environment is inhospitable. At a certain point and once morale as many 
as stated has dropped, those willing to revolt would capture those outside the walls
unwilling to revolt.

Prisoners would be mutilated and chopped up into easy to Identify sections of the body that
are easy to identify, I would start by lobbing rotting pieces of flesh over or on top of
your greenhouse.

The first day would be the hands and feet, then the arms and legs, next would be
genitals, and then lastly the heads. Torso's would be retained and placed around the outer
parameter of your fortification and lit on fire on all sides this way you would have to endure
the smell of burning flesh within your camp for days on end.

Anyone attempting to man the walls would be shot, killed either by grenades, pipe bombs
or other small arms fire, etc.
|
Stage 2: ( Assault )

Once access points were controlled and you were locked/trapped inside we would begin to seal
all the exits of the facility. Then we would begin to cap off/close all ventilation shafts and then
select certain ones to then pump toxic fumes in such as a hose running from the exhaust of a
car to the air shafts.

The great thing about carbon monoxide is it is almost an undetectable killer, and when it saturates
the air even gas masks do not help, cause of the way it binds to the oxygen particles and cannot be
filtered out by most gas masks. Unless you are using a self contained breathing aparatus.

The great thing about Carbon monoxide (CO) is it is a deadly, colorless, odorless, poisonous gas.

Stage 3: ( Clean Up )

We have to assume nothing is ever 100% effective, and since there is no way to know if you have some
sort of defense against CO. We then let the facility air out after a couple days of pumping the facility full.
We then go to storage facility to storage facility first quickly barring each one shut with a strong short metal
bar to ensure anyone left alive is trapped inside. With no way to exit.

Then with protective full metal riot shields would open each and flash grenade, tear gas and then arrest or
execute anyone alive. After doing this we would then take all the remaining heads of you and your top leadership
and anyone who lived within the inner walls and mount your heads on pikes outside the facility walls.

Two or three people would be left alive and before sending them off to warn other towns of the level of violence
we incurred on your facility we would force them to eat the genitals of their friends and family to ensure
who ever we attacked us next would know the fear and death that was coming to them.

Conclusion:

I would enact the most severe and violent type of assault imaginable, in the most inhumane ways, for the simple
fact you ruled and reigned like a fat little toad over others who sought help from you. People like you who believe
you are saving lives by giving rebirth to slavery would and should endure the most horrific experiences before
facing your own demise.

That is how I would do it, if I heard of some man trying to be king and making most everyone their slave.


----------



## HuntingHawk

Not hard to attack. Catapults or trebuckets lauching flaming tires. They burn so hot water doesn't put out the flame. Just the smoke from them will have everyone ready to evacuate. Gas masks will only last so long & you would only be able to take so much of the heat.

So go bacl to your dungeons & dragons game John Oscar & quit wasting out time with your crap.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Have you ever harvested wheat by hand? DO you know how labor intensive it is? Also do not forget you need a Mill regardless of doing it by combine or hand, and do not forget the threshing process, again very labor intensive by hand. You do know a combine does it for you right


Would be hoping to grow potatoes if the soil would take it, the problem with combines and all of that is they take a lot of fuel and repair parts, if we had a chance to acquire one after SHTF, sweet !! but it is just not in the budget.


----------



## John Oscar

HuntingHawk said:


> Not hard to attack. Catapults or trebuckets lauching flaming tires. They burn so hot water doesn't put out the flame. Just the smoke from them will have everyone ready to evacuate. Gas masks will only last so long & you would only be able to take so much of the heat.


Personally I do not know of a treb with better range than a decent rifle but ok.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Would be hoping to grow potatoes if the soil would take it, the problem with combines and all of that is they take a lot of fuel and repair parts, if we had a chance to acquire one after SHTF, sweet !! but it is just not in the budget.


Potatoes are great but you can't live on them alone.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Personally I do not know of a treb with better range than a decent rifle but ok.


A typical Ancient world trebuchet can throw 100lbs about 300m, they had them which could throw a half ton 1-200 m,but in 2013 in N.H. a Trebuchet was made which could launch an 8-10lb pumpkin 864m.

So basically we could launch something like any type of nasty disease, chlorine filled tub, firebomb, or other similar nasty device a good ways and it is easier to hit you in a big unmoving castle then your one bullet to hit us because we can do it all from behind a protective barrier and you cannot shoot your gun at us with out seeing us.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> *[ WARNING A LITTLE GRAPHIC ]*
> 
> The problem with this besides the concept itself is John is saying I am building a castle, attack it.
> We don't have all the specs or know where it is located, cause these will supposedly be everywhere.
> We also have undefined resources, but when we mention what we would use are told we would never
> have that available to us and if we did we would rather use it on someone else, which once again is bullshit.


Sar, if you have access to an MLRS I am dead, a modern tank and I am dead, an attack helicopter and a pilot I am dead, a nuclear warhead and I am dead.
The thing is, I do not know of anything else that would survive it either.

Stage 1: ( Foothold )



SAR-1L said:


> The most likely case would take 4 - 6 of my best men and run operations posing as refugees. Sure you would
> take their weapons and the supplies sent with them. But once trusted could begin to run random operations
> and sabotage campaigns.
> 
> - Pressure cooker bombs
> - Pipe bombs
> - Disabling equipement
> - Setting up traps that would begin to maim those who are outside of the walls.


This is a good strategy, the area would be on camera and you can back those up to see who put what where when but if you could avoid those.... identify all their locations and avoid them anyway it could really hurt. We would of course let the Mexican police look over the footage. Also your admittance into the location would be up to their immigration policies, but I am sure you would be healthy skilled people they would be happy to have.



SAR-1L said:


> The idea is to set up a situation in which leaving your walls is no longer an option,
> that the environment is inhospitable. At a certain point and once morale as many
> as stated has dropped, those willing to revolt would capture those outside the walls
> unwilling to revolt.


I really think this group, knowing the option of what else is out there, would not be so easy to sway.



SAR-1L said:


> Prisoners would be mutilated and chopped up into easy to Identify sections of the body that
> are easy to identify, I would start by lobbing rotting pieces of flesh over or on top of
> your greenhouse.
> 
> The first day would be the hands and feet, then the arms and legs, next would be
> genitals, and then lastly the heads. Torso's would be retained and placed around the outer
> parameter of your fortification and lit on fire on all sides this way you would have to endure
> the smell of burning flesh within your camp for days on end.


If you can stand a 24' high wall and try over and over to throw a leg over without being shot..... well yea, we kinda deserve to lose.



SAR-1L said:


> Stage 2: ( Assault )
> 
> Once access points were controlled and you were locked/trapped inside we would begin to seal
> all the exits of the facility. Then we would begin to cap off/close all ventilation shafts and then
> select certain ones to then pump toxic fumes in such as a hose running from the exhaust of a
> car to the air shafts.
> 
> The great thing about carbon monoxide is it is almost an undetectable killer, and when it saturates
> the air even gas masks do not help, cause of the way it binds to the oxygen particles and cannot be
> filtered out by most gas masks. Unless you are using a self contained breathing aparatus.
> 
> The great thing about Carbon monoxide (CO) is it is a deadly, colorless, odorless, poisonous gas.


Their is no access to anything from where you are in mexico, carbon monoxide was one of the weaknesses I feared in an underground hidy hole tho.



SAR-1L said:


> Stage 3: ( Clean Up )
> 
> We have to assume nothing is ever 100% effective, and since there is no way to know if you have some
> sort of defense against CO. We then let the facility air out after a couple days of pumping the facility full.
> We then go to storage facility to storage facility first quickly barring each one shut with a strong short metal
> bar to ensure anyone left alive is trapped inside. With no way to exit.
> 
> Then with protective full metal riot shields would open each and flash grenade, tear gas and then arrest or
> execute anyone alive. After doing this we would then take all the remaining heads of you and your top leadership
> and anyone who lived within the inner walls and mount your heads on pikes outside the facility walls.


Each door is steel, reinforced, and that is not including what the person rented it has done to it, also while your there trying to get in (maybe you have shape charges ?) with your riot shield, every saferoom on the other 3 walls has a clear line of sight, and an itchy trigger finger.



SAR-1L said:


> Two or three people would be left alive and before sending them off to warn other towns of the level of violence
> we incurred on your facility we would force them to eat the genitals of their friends and family to ensure
> who ever we attacked us next would know the fear and death that was coming to them.
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> I would enact the most severe and violent type of assault imaginable, in the most inhumane ways, for the simple
> fact you ruled and reigned like a fat little toad over others who sought help from you. People like you who believe
> you are saving lives by giving rebirth to slavery would and should endure the most horrific experiences before
> facing your own demise.


Not Nice !!!



SAR-1L said:


> That is how I would do it, if I heard of some man trying to be king and making most everyone their slave.


Really am glad I am not that guy....


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Your breaking the Sabbath John. lol


Recognizing the hazards of my chosen profession...

Most houses I work on are weekend lake houses owned by people in houston. I have to talk to them when they are here.


----------



## John Oscar

jimb1972 said:


> I would burn any surrounding vegetation, and if ground water is available I would bore a well and pollute it with ethylene glycol and other toxic chemicals. After destroying the land your serfs live on I would try to introduce bacterial agents to your higher than normal population inside the compound. It might be more effective to introduce bacterial agents like hoof and mouth disease or anthrax to the livestock before burning the land so you take it inside with you. If the walls can be heated enough the bed liner will produce toxic fumes. Anything to reduce morale, random mortar attacks whatever is available. Then sit back and wait out of the line of sight, but close enough to snipe at anyone outside the walls.


I never thought of poisoning the entire water table, will have to research ethylene glycol, thanks.

livestock does not go inside the walls, but I agree, if you could get some anthrax and walk around with it, I would be in trouble.

Mortars are a big issue, one of my biggest concerns to be honest.

Thanks for the post


----------



## John Oscar

Seneca said:


> Here is a link to the thread.
> http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/general-talk/2759-citadel.html


Anyone that concerned with what people think scares me, I do think it would be a good neighborhood to walk thru with a metal detector though.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> A typical Ancient world trebuchet can throw 100lbs about 300m, they had them which could throw a half ton 1-200 m,but in 2013 in N.H. a Trebuchet was made which could launch an 8-10lb pumpkin 864m.
> 
> So basically we could launch something like any type of nasty disease, chlorine filled tub, firebomb, or other similar nasty device a good ways and it is easier to hit you in a big unmoving castle then your one bullet to hit us because we can do it all from behind a protective barrier and you cannot shoot your gun at us with out seeing us.


Honestly have no clue what makes you think you could get a massive treb 300m from us, with marksmen at least 40' above you, not being able to get a shot. Forgetting all that tho you forget about the trenches that would allow a few people to get behind you.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Honestly have no clue what makes you think you could get a massive treb 300m from us, with marksmen at least 40' above you, not being able to get a shot. Forgetting all that tho you forget about the trenches that would allow a few people to get behind you.


I see you completely overlooked the 10lb 846m Trebuchet.....trustme I could throw quite a few rabies laden animals in with that baby......not mentioning other nasty diseases. way beyond your trenches.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> I see you completely overlooked the 10lb 846m Trebuchet.....trustme I could throw quite a few rabies laden animals in with that baby......not mentioning other nasty diseases. way beyond your trenches.


I mentioned before that the trenches would end just short of the kill zone, so about 950 meters, also it would be like making a full court basket X10, would probably hit the walls and fall... would probably make the people in mexico mad as hell....


----------



## John Oscar

Got to go spend some time with the kids, will probably be back later, have a good one.


----------



## nephilim

You do know it took 2000 soldiers 2 days to dig a trench 2 metres deep by 1 metre wide by 1km long in world war 1. They were later expanded but that's the basics. It happened across Europe (predominantly France) but that was the fastest recorded trench dig by dedicated diggers.

You've excluded the use of anything mechanical so a digger is out. Judging by the sheer landmass, you'd need a trench every 50 metres, and they would need to be interconnecting every 100 metres or so. This would take you months to complete.

As for not having a combine harvester. One person (on average) can cut and shift 3 bales worth in a day. This works out around 60kg or so. To separate the wheat from the chaff without a combine harvester would take days of back breaking labour on top of the cutting and shifting.

Now people are not workhorses, they'll tire quickly so shifting 60kg today, may mean only 40kgs tomorrow and then 30kgs the day after. The volume you require to feed basic bread would need more than your 1000 residents could supply.

In short. Manpower wise to get to where you want, you are down by my calculations by a good 3000 people working 14 hours every day. When the trenches are dug, then moving to the wheat (or other grains) this figure rises again to around 4000.

Look at history here. For grains for the places in ancient egypt, using similar equipment you'd have them use, it took 5000 men to produce enough daily to cut the wheat, separate the good from the bad, to shift the remaining hay for the cattle etc. This was their jobs and they lost people due to attrition and accidents etc. It can and would happen to you too.


----------



## Old SF Guy

Hey all...I have been checking in and out on this thread since it was started and I have to say this has been one of my top threads so far. Why? Well its a strategic problem I can get my teeth into, once I got beyond the scale of the effort and the obvious social/political issues. For me I initially saw the caste system resurrected, and many saw slavery, some saw greed or power grasping.... I spent the better part of last night ans 8 hours of driving today tearing down fortresses one minute and rebuilding them the next...of considering social and civi order within...and deciding how to take over from within and without. It has been a day of deep reflection for me and its because of this thread. I will conclude and say this. John's reasons for starting this idea was met with alot of disdain, some anger, some straight out hostility and from what I have read (and I admit to skimming through the posts) I never saw John go nearly as bat shit on others as I saw go bat shit on him (myself included). So I give John Oscar the "Sponge" Award cause he absorbed a lot of shit over this topic and from what I could tell rarely resorted to "I hope your offspring have no testicles!!!!" name calling...Good on you John!!!. As far as the rest...and I know I am hopping into a punji pit balls first....The whole idea sparked interest in me. Not from a "I'm gonna go buy me some stock in CLUVILLE" but, as Apexpredator pointed out. The military lives and breaths daily like this overseas. Except we use HESCO barriers and we store stuff and live in shipping containers (called CLU's, containerized Living Units). So his ideas of storing stuff and living in these isn't unheard of. I think it's the scale of this folks have trouble with. I too had trouble with aspects of it and still do. But in knowing that you can build a barrier with them, live in them, and that they are very easy to install and modify, helps me overcome some of my issues. My issues have never been about the idea of a compound...its the idea of communal living...but many here may not grasp the fact that on a micro scale you will be dealing with the same problems. Security, labor, survival, and growth. We just look at it from...my family, or my close friends point of view and try to apply the same ideas to a larger frame work and including people who are not the former...this makes it dangerous. Plus its the overt presence that offends some...Wow a shiny target...magnet!!!! But I have been thinking more and more about that and have some thoughts on it. I won't post everything here. I just wanted to thank John for being a Sponge for the punishment and thanks for the 8 hours of mental chess I played today.


----------



## Inor

Old SF Guy said:


> Hey all...I have been checking in and out on this thread since it was started and I have to say this has been one of my top threads so far. Why? Well its a strategic problem I can get my teeth into, once I got beyond the scale of the effort and the obvious social/political issues. For me I initially saw the caste system resurrected, and many saw slavery, some saw greed or power grasping.... I spent the better part of last night ans 8 hours of driving today tearing down fortresses one minute and rebuilding them the next...of considering social and civi order within...and deciding how to take over from within and without. It has been a day of deep reflection for me and its because of this thread. I will conclude and say this. John's reasons for starting this idea was met with alot of disdain, some anger, some straight out hostility and from what I have read (and I admit to skimming through the posts) I never saw John go nearly as bat shit on others as I saw go bat shit on him (myself included). So I give John Oscar the "Sponge" Award cause he absorbed a lot of shit over this topic and from what I could tell rarely resorted to "I hope your offspring have no testicles!!!!" name calling...Good on you John!!!. As far as the rest...and I know I am hopping into a punji pit balls first....The whole idea sparked interest in me. Not from a "I'm gonna go buy me some stock in CLUVILLE" but, as Apexpredator pointed out. The military lives and breaths daily like this overseas. Except we use HESCO barriers and we store stuff and live in shipping containers (called CLU's, containerized Living Units). So his ideas of storing stuff and living in these isn't unheard of. I think it's the scale of this folks have trouble with. I too had trouble with aspects of it and still do. But in knowing that you can build a barrier with them, live in them, and that they are very easy to install and modify, helps me overcome some of my issues. My issues have never been about the idea of a compound...its the idea of communal living...but many here may not grasp the fact that on a micro scale you will be dealing with the same problems. Security, labor, survival, and growth. We just look at it from...my family, or my close friends point of view and try to apply the same ideas to a larger frame work and including people who are not the former...this makes it dangerous. Plus its the overt presence that offends some...Wow a shiny target...magnet!!!! But I have been thinking more and more about that and have some thoughts on it. I won't post everything here. I just wanted to thank John for being a Sponge for the punishment and thanks for the 8 hours of mental chess I played today.


Ditto that, bug time. I made more jokes at John's expense than I think I have done for any other new guy. He took my abuse and gave it back some. That implies John is a good guy.


----------



## pheniox17

I'm off for a day and miss 15 pages of a excellent brain storming topic

I have only gotten through the first 2 pages (so sorry if I repeat any points)

based on johns first post (the castle) and extra Intel given over those 2 pages I will give a quickly formulated assault

first why would I personally attack a fortified area (sorry can't spell the p word)

because supplies in the area are gone, and my groups supplies are "low" 

therefore I believe the timeline will be somewhere in the excess of 6 months after the event

with the right optics a scout can view a facility from extreme distance, with the only concern been roving patrols, such patrols are designated to detect large groups, so a scouting party of 2 should do the job

spend days just watching, I won't get a complete picture but should get a idea of leadership structure, guard rotations, guard placement, and a basic map of the location

now I need to a risk assessment of the location to gains, now with a farm that can feed roughly 1000, air support (ultra lights) and power, there will be a lot of gains

so to stage 2

noticing people living outside the walls and farming, they are the first target, fear is a powerful weapon, start small, sniper engagements, only taking 1 or 2 out a time and wounding is preferred...

set some basic traps for the retreat, make protection of the "slaves" a issue for leadership, therefore expect more patrols, more targets = more casualties = more fear

stage 3, midnight raids on the "slaves" quiet, deadly, hang then up so the castle can see them, no camera system is good enough to see a small group and after 6 or more months even in a heightened alarm level, will still give a false sense of security

stage 4, sniper cover for the "slaves" that are strung, a simple message left where the captured people sleep saying "surrender or die"

stage 5

watch the reaction, of the castle, start a siege campaign, small scale, so mortar attacks one or 2 rounds at a time... (plenty of different style mortar systems around) or higher level IED bombing, or... the point is explosives dropped sporadically on the fort, damaging vital systems, causing wounds

stage 6, make verbal contact, surrender or die

stage 7, late night/early morning assault, small group, loud, attempt to breach the wall using armor, nothing flash, and leave

stage 8, surrender or die

if there is no unrest by now you have some good zombies, but I doubt it, there will be major unrest, fear is dangerous, not only do you have a small force do deal with but the constant badgering of give them what they want

the mental game is more effective in battle than the sword

sorry if I have repeated a plan already


----------



## John Oscar

Old SF Guy said:


> thanks for the 8 hours of mental chess I played today.


Be careful, it is addictive, once you start to realize it could work, the level of detail is staggering. I have been at it for 4 months, but I absolutely love chess.

Going to adress 2 other points people had made so i am not spamming

There are 4 trenches, each starting at a corner of the facility and moving diagonally to the end of the kill zone, and dividing it into 4 sectors. Every inch of these trenches are visible and coverable from the fortress.

I really am not a fan of wheat, love potatoes, potato bread is awesome. Corn would be great but the amount of cover it would allow makes me nervous.


----------



## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> Be careful, it is addictive, once you start to realize it could work, the level of detail is staggering. I have been at it for 4 months, but I absolutely love chess.
> 
> Going to adress 2 other points people had made so i am not spamming
> 
> There are 4 trenches, each starting at a corner of the facility and moving diagonally to the end of the kill zone, and dividing it into 4 sectors. Every inch of these trenches are visible and coverable from the fortress.
> 
> I really am not a fan of wheat, love potatoes, potato bread is awesome. Corn would be great but the amount of cover it would allow makes me nervous.


please draw a mud map (use ms paint if you have to) and upload the image, doesn't have to be of scale, but a map you would expect of a scout (so include a legend and such, and minor details, height, depth, what could be seen or assumed)


----------



## Old SF Guy

I will say that none of my successful thoughts involve a single fortress that houses everything...and that isn't accounting for any rebellion of your work force...just principles. but... I'm not going to discuss the how could I make it better in the "How would I attack this" forum


----------



## Kauboy

John Oscar said:


> I believe the US constitution is one of the greatest documents ever created, if it was actually followed, the US would be unstoppable, petty dictators fall all over the place.


You might want to brush up on your reading and/or comprehension about the U.S. Constitution. It did *NOT* create a democracy, and to hell with any man that wants to institute one.

I noticed that my plan to infect your water supply was overlooked, but also echoed by others. Your plan is simply not sustainable at the scale you are describing.


----------



## John Oscar

My puter skills suck but this should give you the outlay if i can figure out how to attach it









Ok the center rectangle is the fortress

The surrounding rectangle is mexico, a single row of containers with dirt bermed at a gentle slope up to the back of them, the facility is on the highest possible land around so you would not be able to see down into anything, the straight line is the only road leading to the auto entrance that would almost never be opened in a SHTF situation, the walk in gates are on the other side the structure in the back would be a strip of roadway for microlights with the same single row of bermed containers for the microlights/quarantine area.

I am a HUGE fan of intel, tech, logistics, training, and commo I really think they are the largest part of what makes us the best.


----------



## HuntingHawk

John Oscar said:


> I mentioned before that the trenches would end just short of the kill zone, so about 950 meters, also it would be like making a full court basket X10, would probably hit the walls and fall... would probably make the people in mexico mad as hell....


OK, so instead of 10lb objects will make them 5lbs & exceed your 950meter kill zone. So you going to change your kill zone again? Even doing small 2 & 3lb containers of mixed chemicals they will ignite when coming into contact with each other.


----------



## John Oscar

Kauboy said:


> You might want to brush up on your reading and/or comprehension about the U.S. Constitution. It did *NOT* create a democracy, and to hell with any man that wants to institute one.
> 
> I noticed that my plan to infect your water supply was overlooked, but also echoed by others. Your plan is simply not sustainable at the scale you are describing.


You want each wall to be a state ? I was planning on each wall electing one official from among them for the judiciary /shrugs

What would you recommend ?


----------



## John Oscar

HuntingHawk said:


> OK, so instead of 10lb objects will make them 5lbs & exceed your 950meter kill zone. So you going to change your kill zone again? Even doing small 2 & 3lb containers of mixed chemicals they will ignite when coming into contact with each other.


You should check the accuracy on a weapon like that, the exposure your people would have trying to load it to both contagions and sniper fire, and hopefully the common sense of our personnel to be able to handle the waste with the same care your people would show.

might also want to look at what a 50 cal round would penetrate.


----------



## John Oscar

Kauboy said:


> I have no mind to read 12 pages on such a topic. Within walls, your resources would be limited and fragile. I'd recon your water supply, locate the source, and infect it. The place would be mine within the month.


I looked through 12 pages to find this mail.....

We would have 4, 4" wells, rain catchment, and 3 modified old school busses that could be loaded with water blivets and filled with a trash pump.

in addition to the excess water kept in the aquaponics system.


----------



## SAR-1L

*Dungeon Master John's top 5 reasons you can't defeat him and your shit won't work
cause his L33t magic & admin abilities defeat your common sense!*

_1. Catapults will never work cause I don't believe in them.
2. I have a +5 fire staff, and +10 holy shield of might, ULTIMATE defense and offense!
3. My walls have +24 height, and nothing can fly over them cause of my greenhouse bubble.
4. I will have facilities all over the world, and no matter where they are people in MEXICO will hate you and rise up against you.
5. I have storage crates, and each one is filled with 10 minions with itchy trigger fingers._


----------



## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> My puter skills suck but this should give you the outlay if i can figure out how to attach it
> 
> View attachment 5764
> 
> 
> Ok the center rectangle is the fortress
> 
> The surrounding rectangle is mexico, a single row of containers with dirt bermed at a gentle slope up to the back of them, the facility is on the highest possible land around so you would not be able to see down into anything, the straight line is the only road leading to the auto entrance that would almost never be opened in a SHTF situation, the walk in gates are on the other side the structure in the back would be a strip of roadway for microlights with the same single row of bermed containers for the microlights/quarantine area.
> 
> I am a HUGE fan of intel, tech, logistics, training, and commo I really think they are the largest part of what makes us the best.


OK great mud map, please play with ms paint just a little more, spend a few hours on it 

the first big thing from this is you are reliant on assumptions, you may not be able to purchase the highest point, as a lot of mountains are state and national parks...

the other point I feel needs to be reinforced is history

gunpowder = death of castles
tanks = end of trench warfare

Maoris invented trench warfare  with sticks and clubs

as a potential tactician, (you are a expert at this point from what I have witnessed) misdirection is your friend (ww2 was won on misdirection, Vietnam was lost due to misdirection)

we have all planned out a possibly successful assault on your compound, some more nasty than others, with that basic design there are still ways to get through, and there is always a way, removing the will to fight, is a massive way to inflict damage


----------



## pheniox17

HuntingHawk said:


> OK, so instead of 10lb objects will make them 5lbs & exceed your 950meter kill zone. So you going to change your kill zone again? Even doing small 2 & 3lb containers of mixed chemicals they will ignite when coming into contact with each other.


2 words chlorine gas


----------



## nephilim

and I am done.

You keep adding and adding and adding to this to the point where to pull it off, you will need more than your 1000 person limit. Even with 1000 able bodied fit and healthy men, you will struggle, badly. 

I wish you luck, but shall stop here unless you post more unfeasible stuff.


----------



## HuntingHawk

What magic spell only allows a 50 caliber to be used defensively but can't be used for offense?


----------



## HuntingHawk

Simple above ground trench warfare. Metal dumpster or shipping container with the top cut off. Moved forward by a bulldozer. Put in place then backed up, scoops up dirt & fills container. Artillery weapon then moved into place. Repeat process as necessary. Can continue in a step pattern that more accurate artillery can be used as distance decreases.

Can also be done in a C formation creating its own killing field.


----------



## nephilim

Innkeeper said:


> Thanks for that info I am planning to get about half a dozen for personal use I prefer the brown, blue or green eggs to white always did growing up, we had probably 2-3 dozen on the farm at any time and I can tell you I never really did pay close attention to weekly/monthly/yearly out put at that age.


My best friends mother keeps chickens, she has 10 of them, and in a given 7 day period, she will get between 8 and 14 eggs. Once a year, she has a rooster "service" her chickens, gets a batch of chicks, then sends the male ones off to a farm to grow into other roosters for meat, and the female ones she will keep as her next set of egg layers, and will remove 3 or 4 from the group for food.

Every month I will get a dozen eggs from her, for £3 which for organic free range in the UK isn't bad (in fact it beats supermarket prices by around 50p). A dozen eggs will do me nicely for cakes or ommelettes etc, and I know the source so I trust the eggs. I would keep some myself, but I lack the space unfortunately.


----------



## jimb1972

Wait for lightning? High ground with firing positions on top of the wall, sounds like fricasseed defenders to me.


----------



## nephilim

jimb1972 said:


> Wait for lightning? High ground with firing positions on top of the wall, sounds like fricasseed defenders to me.


Oh naturally he will have lightning spikes which are linked up to generators to power many of the lights etc...


----------



## Notsoyoung

How would I attack it? I would start off my killing the self anointed Lord of the Manor, although I strongly suspect the serfs would do it for me.


----------



## Kauboy

John Oscar said:


> You want each wall to be a state ? I was planning on each wall electing one official from among them for the judiciary /shrugs
> 
> What would you recommend ?


I was simply pointing out that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a democracy is. The United States is NOT a democracy.
I would recommend you abandon your idea.
The ONLY way such a thing works is via totalitarian rule, and that would only last *a bit* longer than any other form of government in this situation.


----------



## Kauboy

John Oscar said:


> I looked through 12 pages to find this mail.....
> 
> We would have 4, 4" wells, rain catchment, and 3 modified old school busses that could be loaded with water blivets and filled with a trash pump.
> 
> in addition to the excess water kept in the aquaponics system.


Your wells are a source. That source would find itself with newly added ingredients, such as dead corpses, soon after we breached the water table.
Your rain catchment option is only useful if it rains, which isn't a high occurrence in the deserts of Mexico.
Without refill, your aquaponics would evaporate within a few months. Water is funny that way.


----------



## pheniox17

finally read all 21 pages 

my plans are not unique, (honestly I only read the first 2 pages of this before I formulated it, this should ring massive alarm bells JO)

now to defensive tactics

you pointed out your prediction was a EMP or civil unrest from a financial meltdown

you also have a limited budget

but the biggest failure is your wet dream rifle, the 50 cal, I assume the Barrett M82?? what 1km accurate anti material rifle, that is not suited to Browning 50cal machine gun ammunition (I would assume you know this) 

but since we are wet dreaming, the Arctic warfare magnum in 30 cal is more my wet dream (but **** knows how to use it at 2.5 km, but Hollywood says 4 seconds to target..)

but defense in case of emp, cameras are OUT, you may get a handful but Jesus

now its 2 walls and a trench, still focused on safe rooms?? but that is core to the design

again 1k for a drone?? what your going to strap a camera to a remote control plane, that only gets 15mins fly time??

you're overcomplicating a simple tried and proven concept, the only shtf event your design is suited for is sifi zombies....


now the concept of a ready made community dose float my boat, a fixed placement of a prepared defendable location is the only way to provide a sense of security to those inside

I still believe your no leader, maybe have some skills in leading a department, but leading a community, with a focus on trade partnerships, (you point this out) means you need to produce more than you need

I don't see you doing this on your budget, you should be looking at 10mil plus

but please if anything take these 2 chunks of advice (you haven't yet) 

study history, in relation to forts, did you know like boats are money pits, castles take generations to build

and remove yourself from leadership, give your say more voting power, but that's it, you are no general, you are no mayer, you finished as a NCO, but a old persons rank.... that is normally given with experience... use military structure in this field or anything, just for the love of god, don't use titles like president, king, mayer, majority leader, as they all scream dictatorship


----------



## Seneca

As I said before, I'd walk right on by, wave at the nice shipping container people and thank my lucky stars that I was not part of that mess. SHTF I'd rather live outside the crate wall than inside. 

Why would I attack it when it would be better to avoid it altogether. Besides every thug and raider in the region is going to be attacking it. Which means they'll be focusing on it and leaving me alone. So...yeah, I'm starting to like the castle thing.


----------



## John Oscar

nephilim said:


> and I am done.
> 
> You keep adding and adding and adding to this to the point where to pull it off, you will need more than your 1000 person limit. Even with 1000 able bodied fit and healthy men, you will struggle, badly.


Neph

I have no clue what makes you think after SHTF we could not get a tractor, they are pretty common things where I live, 4 backhoes just in my neighborhood, there is a massive heavy equipment rental facility right down the highway. The issue would be fuel, they would all be useless hunks of metal without it. If you would wait around until you could get 10 mil to buy a lot of machinery, and massive acreage, you will never get off the ground. I have stripped the highest priced items from the facility the best I can, I need to make the units affordable. I have shown that the facility will net at least 20k monthly, you can get a lot of things for a facility like this with 20k monthly net. If you give the members input into the purchases and are fully transparent, you can have very happy loyal customers and get a hell of a lot of supplies with that, with an amazing bulk purchase discount.

Let me give you an example, My next door neighbor owns a bunch of gas stations. When he bought his house here, he did not move in until it was fully remodeled. One of the things he did was put in an aerobic septic system. I have a very good sub that is happy to do this for about 6k, he paid 19k as I found out later when we were both standing at the kids bus stop. Why ? because he drove up in his shiny new Volvo and did not have a clue, he is from india and has a heavy accent, he had a one time job to be done and could not be bothered with the details so they sucked all they could out of it. I did not have the heart to tell him, he still thinks he got a good deal.

There are different prices for everything, what I would pay and what you would pay could be very different. Another example, old school busses can be bought for 2 to 5k each, they are usually crushed for scrap, you can pay a welder $80 to $100 an hour or have an employee (borrow one from a sub) that is good at welding for $15 to $25. How much would you pay for a vehicle like this ? When I ran my spray in truck bedliner operation, total overhead for me other than labor was $125 per liner, ask people what they paid for theirs. Ask them what the dealer markup was, I sprayed a hell of a lot of those.

I am not sure what you think I added, but since this conversation started the only addition I have made would be the installation of a 10' piece of galvanized corrugated pipe around the innermost perimeter.

You can buy plans for about $20 off the internet for a microlight that can be built with off the shelf products from Home Depot. They do not require an airport to take off or land, the plane in Mad Max was a microlight.

Thank you for trying to find things that would make this impossible, you may figure out something I have not. In the meantime, I will be moving forward, finding ways it will work.

Also figured I should add that most things purchased on a project like this is on lines of credit extended to the company, put a large payment down and you would be surprised how much credit a young company can get. You would make the payments from profits.


----------



## John Oscar

pheniox17 said:


> 2 words chlorine gas


That is some nasty stuff.


----------



## John Oscar

nephilim said:


> Oh naturally he will have lightning spikes which are linked up to generators to power many of the lights etc...


Lightning rods are new technology where your from ?

Would love to figure out how to use the energy but do not know of one, do you ?


----------



## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> That is some nasty stuff.


and very simple to make, and the best part.... it dissipates


----------



## John Oscar

HuntingHawk said:


> What magic spell only allows a 50 caliber to be used defensively but can't be used for offense?


No clue, but if you think you have come up with one..... well... good luck with that....


----------



## John Oscar

Notsoyoung said:


> How would I attack it? I would start off my killing the self anointed Lord of the Manor, although I strongly suspect the serfs would do it for me.


There is no anointed one, I have tried to explain this as best I could, I do not know how to explain it in a more simple manner so going to stop trying. If you honestly believe this then the plan is not for you and I wish you luck.

Also people earlier were talking about communities that are built for preppers and the fact that if you were there, found out it was not for you, you could leave. If you did this with my facility it would cost you $100, if you did it with the one they are putting in by Dallas it would cost you over 300k.


----------



## nephilim

The facility will only net $20k a month at maximum output for food and every unit occupied, which frankly, I doubt will happen. Also in a SHTF situation, how do you expect people to pay? They wont have access to their banks or their accounts, so that will be a downside as well. Also from your original idea, you have added the following that I can think of:

Trenches
High Walls
Trainer Snipers (though you've never actually elaborated on what training they will get)
Greenhousing which is military strength glass (can't remember exact phrasing)
Ventilation systems

Your best bet for security? A moat and Bailey system around the entire property in addition to your very high walls. So you the moat and bailey around the property, it makes it very difficult for the attackers to get in without waterlogging themselves or their equipment. It also gives them only 1 point of entry to the entire property, which makes things much harder as it is easier to defend 1 entry way than 5 or 6. The downside to it? They can hold up anything going in. See below for reference


----------



## nephilim

John Oscar said:


> Lightning rods are new technology where your from ?
> 
> Would love to figure out how to use the energy but do not know of one, do you ?


No lightning spikes aren't new...I was being sarcastic.


----------



## nephilim

Also the trouble is, every prepper (myself included) sees themselves as an Alpha Male. Short of having Bear Grylls or Dave Canterbury as your leader, you aren't helping the situation.


----------



## John Oscar

nephilim said:


> The facility will only net $20k a month at maximum output for food and every unit occupied, which frankly, I doubt will happen. Also in a SHTF situation, how do you expect people to pay? They wont have access to their banks or their accounts, so that will be a downside as well. Also from your original idea,


Max gross would be a little under 50k monthly, this is with 250 customers, Number of customers is only limited by the headcount of 900, it is the scale of the operation everyone is having issues with that would allows this. Dept payments, taxes, 6 employees, maintenance, acquisition of preps the council would feel to be a priority, ect. figured 20k would be a safe number.



nephilim said:


> you have added the following that I can think of:
> 
> Trenches
> High Walls
> Trainer Snipers (though you've never actually elaborated on what training they will get)
> Greenhousing which is military strength glass (can't remember exact phrasing)
> Ventilation systems


Trenches, would not be dug till land was acquired, thus not a part of the original model but always been a part of the plan
High walls..... umm the whole idea is based on 8'X8'X40' shipping containers stacked 3 high 3X8 is 24' high walls.
Trainer Snipers, if I could find someone sniper qualified they would probably get a heavy discount, if they could still shoot it would be free. They would train others that showed ability as their primary job in a SHTF situation. At least train a spotter for him then work from their.
Greenhousing is part of the original plan, you can put a film like window tint on it that would make it much much stronger, is a very good one from 3m you could get as money allows.
Ventilation system somone mentioned geothermal power a while back, the best use of the reading I did in this regard would be the burial of some pvc pipes to blow air through, this was an add that I had been thinking of and after research decided to go with, so yea your kinda right on this one.



nephilim said:


> Your best bet for security? A moat and Bailey system around the entire property in addition to your very high walls. So you the moat and bailey around the property, it makes it very difficult for the attackers to get in without waterlogging themselves or their equipment. It also gives them only 1 point of entry to the entire property, which makes things much harder as it is easier to defend 1 entry way than 5 or 6. The downside to it? They can hold up anything going in. See below for reference


I have thought of a moat but think it would be to easy to turn this into a toxic death circle spewing fumes into facility, messing up mexico.


----------



## HuntingHawk

Tie flares to cow tails & chase cows to the castle. When they fart the methane will explode the castle.


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> Trainer Snipers, if I could find someone sniper qualified they would probably get a heavy discount, if they could still shoot it would be free. They would train others that showed ability as their primary job in a SHTF situation. At least train a spotter for him then work from their.


Just for fun...

Say you found yourself four trained snipers to join your crew with the expectation that they train others. Say they get to talking and decide that they collectively refuse to train any addition snipers in order to preserve their value to the community. How do you deal with them? What if they start demanding preferential treatment over other members? What if this starts happening with other members with specialized training in other areas?


----------



## John Oscar

pheniox17 said:


> you pointed out your prediction was a EMP or civil unrest from a financial meltdown


Power grid failure, emp is one of those things that could bring it down.



pheniox17 said:


> you also have a limited budget


The smaller I keep it, the less I have to charge, 1.25m is the target, I could go over-budget just like anything else ever built. Trying hard not to bring in not to bring in angel investors or venture capitalists but if it is unavoidable then it is just that.



pheniox17 said:


> but the biggest failure is your wet dream rifle, the 50 cal, I assume the Barrett M82?? what 1km accurate anti material rifle, that is not suited to Browning 50cal machine gun ammunition (I would assume you know this)
> 
> but since we are wet dreaming, the Arctic warfare magnum in 30 cal is more my wet dream (but **** knows how to use it at 2.5 km, but Hollywood says 4 seconds to target..)


Honestly I have no clue on sniper rifles, I would find several people that do, get a consensus of the best I can get without a class 3 licence and get a few if and when possible.



pheniox17 said:


> but defense in case of emp, cameras are OUT, you may get a handful but Jesus


These stay in storage until needed, most tech I do not have several backups for would, a shipping container is damn near a complete faraday cage.



pheniox17 said:


> again 1k for a drone?? what your going to strap a camera to a remote control plane, that only gets 15mins fly time??


Drones are improving almost weekly, current technology is impressive, you can take a lot of video that would have to be studied in 15 mins though



pheniox17 said:


> now the concept of a ready made community dose float my boat, a fixed placement of a prepared defendable location is the only way to provide a sense of security to those inside


Mine as well



pheniox17 said:


> but please if anything take these 2 chunks of advice (you haven't yet)
> 
> study history, in relation to forts, did you know like boats are money pits, castles take generations to build


Would take a couple days to stack the containers with a forklift or crane.



pheniox17 said:


> and remove yourself from leadership, give your say more voting power


Have pretty much done this, but there is no supreme leader, dictator or whatever you mean.



pheniox17 said:


> but that's it, you are no general, you are no mayer,


The best leaders surround themselves with the best people they could find with at least half disagreeing with him so he gets all angles, leadership on this level is taking that information and making the best decisive decisions you can, I have no clue what your qualifications are for how to can assess my ability to do this, from this site, but ok.



pheniox17 said:


> you finished as a NCO, but a old persons rank....


WOW, will let someone else answer this one.....



pheniox17 said:


> just for the love of god, don't use titles like president, king, mayer, majority leader, as they all scream dictatorship


Good point


----------



## John Oscar

Eagles700LvL said:


> Just for fun...
> 
> Say you found yourself four trained snipers to join your crew with the expectation that they train others. Say they get to talking and decide that they collectively refuse to train any addition snipers in order to preserve their value to the community. How do you deal with them? What if they start demanding preferential treatment over other members? What if this starts happening with other members with specialized training in other areas?


Wow, good question. would depend on a lot of differing variables but if it came down to it would probably end in the leader of the 4 losing his firing eye. Would really suck, would hate to do it, but cannot allow things like this to grow and fester. The example would eliminate this from the other groups.

That would be my vote anyway.


----------



## nephilim

Also John you neglected to answer, what would happen if the grid went down and nobody could pay?


----------



## jimb1972

John Oscar said:


> Wow, good question. would depend on a lot of differing variables but if it came down to it would probably end in the leader of the 4 losing his firing eye. Would really suck, would hate to do it, but cannot allow things like this to grow and fester. The example would eliminate this from the other groups.
> 
> That would be my vote anyway.


Alienating those who provide your defense would most likely result in revolt, if they have a good firing position on the outside they have one inside as well, and much higher percentage shots.


----------



## Kauboy

John Oscar said:


> Wow, good question. would depend on a lot of differing variables but if it came down to it would probably end in the leader of the 4 losing his firing eye. Would really suck, would hate to do it, but cannot allow things like this to grow and fester. The example would eliminate this from the other groups.
> 
> That would be my vote anyway.


So, no crime committed, but violent and permanent punishment just the same.
Kinda like a captain on a pirate ship... ah... democracy. Oh, wait.


----------



## rice paddy daddy

I only read the first page. Life is just to short.
I like Old SF Guy's post on the first page, spoken like a true Special Forces guy.
Me? I'd build an onanger or some similar Roman catapult and heave dead animals inside your compound. Or, if available, flaming cannisters of gasoline/diesel/kerosene/etc.
FWIW, the most technologically advanced Army in the world built highly fortified base camps in Vietnam that were often defeated by half starved peasants armed with just basic small arms and explosive devices.


----------



## John Oscar

nephilim said:


> Also John you neglected to answer, what would happen if the grid went down and nobody could pay?


Sorry thought I had answered this before, if the grid goes down and a full blown SHTF situation erupted, whatever you were renting is yours or your descendants until the need for the facility is gone.


----------



## John Oscar

Kauboy said:


> So, no crime committed, but violent and permanent punishment just the same.
> Kinda like a captain on a pirate ship... ah... democracy. Oh, wait.


Just a damn hard decision that would have to be made.


----------



## John Oscar

jimb1972 said:


> Alienating those who provide your defense would most likely result in revolt, if they have a good firing position on the outside they have one inside as well, and much higher percentage shots.


Yes I agree, and like I said would be a hard decision, he can still instruct with one eye. Everyone will be treated the same, as much as possible, once you start having privileged groups, civil breakdown will occur and you have lost anyway.


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> Just a damn hard decision that would have to be made.


Just for clarification, the franchise owner would be the one making this decision?


----------



## John Oscar

rice paddy daddy said:


> the most technologically advanced Army in the world built highly fortified base camps in Vietnam that were often defeated by half starved peasants armed with just basic small arms and explosive devices.


This fact scares the hell out of me and is the reason for this post.

I just do not think I could hide a wife and 3 kids for a prolonged period of time with millions of starving people stomping around, they will try to sell this information for food, the larger the group, the harder it would be to hide.

If I am going to be found anyway, I would rather be as ready for it as possible. The hope is they do not see me to be worth it, if they move on we have saved a lot of ammo and lives, winning that battle without firing a shot.


----------



## John Oscar

Eagles700LvL said:


> Just for clarification, the franchise owner would be the one making this decision?


I personally think the judicial branch would handle it, one elected official from each wall.

I would probably bring it to them.

Then tell the 4 snipers "only the judicial branch could make the call" so they would tell them their demands, sealing their guilt.

Judicial is 4 people, myself or franchise owner would have an advise and tie breaking position only on that counsel. That would be my advice and my vote if it came to it.


----------



## Kauboy

John Oscar said:


> Just a damn hard decision that would have to be made.


Not that hard a decision for an iron-fisted dictator.
If you followed the constitution, as you espoused, he'd deserve a trial.
But we can't be bothered with that now, can we?


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> I personally think the judicial branch would handle it, one elected official from each wall.
> 
> I would probably bring it to them.
> 
> Then tell the 4 snipers "only the judicial branch could make the call" so they would tell them their demands, sealing their guilt.
> 
> Judicial is 4 people, myself or franchise owner would have an advise and tie breaking position only on that counsel. That would be my advice and my vote if it came to it.


And what if the people disagreed with the 4(5) judges maiming one of the key aspects of the defense plan? Also, who determines who the leader of the group was? What type of unbiased investigation will be taking place?


----------



## John Oscar

Kauboy said:


> Not that hard a decision for an iron-fisted dictator.
> If you followed the constitution, as you espoused, he'd deserve a trial.
> But we can't be bothered with that now, can we?


They would have admitted guilt to all 4 judges, in fact demanded to be found guilty.

Really not sure what the need for a further trial would be other than giving them time to flee and join the enemy. Or have some of our most valuable assets sitting in a cell waiting for trial instead of doing their jobs.

The whole thing should be videotaped, if the people did not like the decision, they can vote out whoever casted a vote they did not like.

In that situation the leader IMO would take the punishment, the other 3 would be free to return to their instructing jobs, the former leader could join them once his wounds were tended to.


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> They would have admitted guilt to all 4 judges, in fact demanded to be found guilty.\


What? Why are you assuming that they would demand to be found guilty? What if they don't admit guilt?


----------



## John Oscar

Eagles700LvL said:


> What? Why are you assuming that they would demand to be found guilty? What if they don't admit guilt?


They would be demanding that the judges give them special treatment or they will refuse to do their jobs, I told them that they would have to take their demands to the judges, that I could not alone make that call.

They refuse to do their jobs, or get special treatment, others follow suit, civil unrest follows, my children are dead, the more I think about it the easier the decision would be.


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> They would be demanding that the judges give them special treatment or they will refuse to do their jobs, I told them that they would have to take their demands to the judges, that I could not alone make that call.
> 
> They refuse to do their jobs, or get special treatment, others follow suit, civil unrest follows, my children are dead, the more I think about it the easier the decision would be.


And if they refuse to identify their leader do you maim all four? What if 700 of your 900 population disagree, when does the new vote take place? Right away? What if the 700 demand that the 4 judges be replaced immediately? What if they demand that the franchise owner be removed? Is there a mechanism for a franchise owner to be replaced, or are they untouchable?

Also, why maim the leader, are you making an example of the individual to instill fear in the population from anyone else who may have a similar thought?


----------



## Kauboy

Guilty of what?
Wanting preferential treatment?
Last I checked, that's horribly arrogant, but not a crime.
Certainly not deserving of maiming.

Would it be a crime in this dystopia?
This fictional society is devolving faster than you can come up with solutions.

It's very fitting. Just last night I watched "Dredd".
Your judges are starting to sound a lot like those judges.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> This fact scares the hell out of me and is the reason for this post.
> 
> I just do not think I could hide a wife and 3 kids for a prolonged period of time with millions of starving people stomping around, they will try to sell this information for food, the larger the group, the harder it would be to hide.
> 
> If I am going to be found anyway, I would rather be as ready for it as possible. The hope is they do not see me to be worth it, if they move on we have saved a lot of ammo and lives, winning that battle without firing a shot.


It is far easier for a small group to remain out of sight/out of mind then for your idea to ever bear fruit.


----------



## Kauboy

John Oscar said:


> This fact scares the hell out of me and is the reason for this post.
> 
> I just do not think I could hide a wife and 3 kids for a prolonged period of time with millions of starving people stomping around, they will try to sell this information for food, the larger the group, the harder it would be to hide.
> 
> If I am going to be found anyway, I would rather be as ready for it as possible. The hope is they do not see me to be worth it, if they move on we have saved a lot of ammo and lives, winning that battle without firing a shot.


So your solution is to invite a multitude of those millions inside of your "secure" facility to exist alongside you, your wife, and your 3 kids.
Your trust spectrum is a little skewed from my POV.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> You should check the accuracy on a weapon like that, the exposure your people would have trying to load it to both contagions and sniper fire, and hopefully the common sense of our personnel to be able to handle the waste with the same care your people would show.
> 
> might also want to look at what a 50 cal round would penetrate.


Check your History John Trebuchet were actually very accurate especially by a trained crew and especially when shooting at an extra large immovable object like a "castle". And it is very easy to but up earth works and green timber to protect the lower portion as a shield for those who are operating it. The construction of which is the time your opponent hopes you try to snipe the engineers because his counter sniping teams would be waiting, and they have less place to observe for a shot then your guys would.


----------



## John Oscar

Eagles700LvL said:


> And if they refuse to identify their leader do you maim all four? What if 700 of your 900 population disagree, when does the new vote take place? Right away? What if the 700 demand that the 4 judges be replaced immediately? What if they demand that the franchise owner be removed? Is there a mechanism for a franchise owner to be replaced, or are they untouchable?


The person who would be primarily bringing the demands in that situation would have been the leader.

If 700 of the 900 disagree they can elect new judges, 700 would be about all of the people old enough to vote so a nearly unanimous vote from the majority could do about anything they felt that strongly about including replacing the franchise owner.



Eagles700LvL said:


> Also, why maim the leader, are you making an example of the individual to instill fear in the population from anyone else who may have a similar thought?


Yes,

IMO civil unrest would be the way to take down the facility, every member would have more than enough time to stand on guard and look at mexico, and know what was out there beyond making them grateful for a safe place to rest. Like I said before, this is my opinion, and how I would react in that position, in that exact scenario, and it is how I believe I would vote, and the advice I would give.


----------



## Innkeeper

Old SF Guy said:


> Hey all...I have been checking in and out on this thread since it was started and I have to say this has been one of my top threads so far. Why? Well its a strategic problem I can get my teeth into, once I got beyond the scale of the effort and the obvious social/political issues. For me I initially saw the caste system resurrected, and many saw slavery, some saw greed or power grasping.... I spent the better part of last night ans 8 hours of driving today tearing down fortresses one minute and rebuilding them the next...of considering social and civi order within...and deciding how to take over from within and without. It has been a day of deep reflection for me and its because of this thread. I will conclude and say this. John's reasons for starting this idea was met with alot of disdain, some anger, some straight out hostility and from what I have read (and I admit to skimming through the posts) I never saw John go nearly as bat shit on others as I saw go bat shit on him (myself included). So I give John Oscar the "Sponge" Award cause he absorbed a lot of shit over this topic and from what I could tell rarely resorted to "I hope your offspring have no testicles!!!!" name calling...Good on you John!!!. As far as the rest...and I know I am hopping into a punji pit balls first....The whole idea sparked interest in me. Not from a "I'm gonna go buy me some stock in CLUVILLE" but, as Apexpredator pointed out. The military lives and breaths daily like this overseas. Except we use HESCO barriers and we store stuff and live in shipping containers (called CLU's, containerized Living Units). So his ideas of storing stuff and living in these isn't unheard of. I think it's the scale of this folks have trouble with. I too had trouble with aspects of it and still do. But in knowing that you can build a barrier with them, live in them, and that they are very easy to install and modify, helps me overcome some of my issues. My issues have never been about the idea of a compound...its the idea of communal living...but many here may not grasp the fact that on a micro scale you will be dealing with the same problems. Security, labor, survival, and growth. We just look at it from...my family, or my close friends point of view and try to apply the same ideas to a larger frame work and including people who are not the former...this makes it dangerous. Plus its the overt presence that offends some...Wow a shiny target...magnet!!!! But I have been thinking more and more about that and have some thoughts on it. I won't post everything here. I just wanted to thank John for being a Sponge for the punishment and thanks for the 8 hours of mental chess I played today.


I do not begrudge his idea for building materials I have lived in many of these HESCO barrier FOB's and ComOp's, and in a CLU or too, I love the concept of using the CONEX's for living and storage, My only issue has been the class system and his lack of being able to understand the inherent weakness that class system would cause, and the fact he wants a class system and still thinks he would be living under the auspices of the Constitution doing it. I give him all kinds of points for the idea, does not mean I think it will work , nor saying I would want to be a part of it.

But same as some underestimate his ideas, he is overestimating them some and dismissing others attacks to casually. I love all this I am getting a Teaching Degree now that I am retired, both Elementary Ed, and secondary Ed and on the Secondary my Major is History and my minor is English. I love history and love playing RTS (real time strategy) games on my PC just to test my thoughts, I really love playing the underdog too makes it twice as hard, and the victory more sweet. You are right this thread does help the mental juices flow.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Be careful, it is addictive, once you start to realize it could work, the level of detail is staggering. I have been at it for 4 months, but I absolutely love chess.
> 
> Going to adress 2 other points people had made so i am not spamming
> 
> There are 4 trenches, each starting at a corner of the facility and moving diagonally to the end of the kill zone, and dividing it into 4 sectors. Every inch of these trenches are visible and coverable from the fortress.
> 
> I really am not a fan of wheat, love potatoes, potato bread is awesome. Corn would be great but the amount of cover it would allow makes me nervous.


 The big problem with corn is it ruins the soil, corn farmers have to rotate crops to keep the land viable. This is why the Natives taught the pilgrims to plant other crops in with their corn, those crops negated the harm of the corn, but modern society does not do this labor intensive method.


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> The person who would be primarily bringing the demands in that situation would have been the leader.


Maybe, the brains and the mouth piece are not always the same person. What if you maim the wrong guy?



John Oscar said:


> If 700 of the 900 disagree they can elect new judges, 700 would be about all of the people old enough to vote so a nearly unanimous vote from the majority could do about anything they felt that strongly about including replacing the franchise owner.


So a majority vote can expel the franchise owner?


----------



## rice paddy daddy

You know, John, you are overlooking one point - "friendly fire". Your "leadership" style pretty much garantees you will take rounds from your own people.
Like the officer in a neighboring company who got shot in the back. I will not reveal more than that on the internet. But I know of what I speak.
You seem to be worried about some kind of wandering hordes. You should spend more time thinking about those around you.


----------



## Lucky Jim

I've only just seen this thread, sorry if somebody's mentioned it before but in a post-apoc world couldn't we simply get a tank from an abandoned army base and start blasting any fortified position until they run up the white flag?
Alternatively even a simple mortar could keep lobbing shells into the position for hour after hour until they crack.
And we could also station a sniper with high-powered scope on permanent duty to take off any heads foolish enough to peek over the barricade.
And how about letting off tear gas canisters upwind of the fort to keep them coughing and spluttering for hours on end?

Even better than all that, we could decide not to attack at all and simply knock their door to ask if we can join them..
_"The greatest warrior is the one who never has to fight a battle"- Gen. Sun Tzu 600 BC _


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## John Oscar

Kauboy said:


> So your solution is to invite a multitude of those millions inside of your "secure" facility to exist alongside you, your wife, and your 3 kids.
> Your trust spectrum is a little skewed from my POV.


It is amazing how well people can work together when their lives depend on it, and how fast that person you thought you could trust will feed you your balls if his families lives depend on it.

Look I am not saying your wrong, I personally think you are tho.

You do what you think is best, and I will do what I think is best, hopefully both of our plans will work out, I wish no harm on anyone.


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## Innkeeper

rice paddy daddy said:


> You know, John, you are overlooking one point - "friendly fire". Your "leadership" style pretty much garantees you will take rounds from your own people.
> Like the officer in a neighboring company who got shot in the back. I will not reveal more than that on the internet.
> You seem to be worried about some kind of wandering hordes. You should spend more time thinking about those around you.


Amen Brother!


----------



## John Oscar

Eagles700LvL said:


> Maybe, the brains and the mouth piece are not always the same person. What if you maim the wrong guy?


If he is smart enough not to talk to the judges, he would be smart enough to get the hint.



Eagles700LvL said:


> So a majority vote can expel the franchise owner?


Why would they not be able to do this ?


----------



## Kauboy

John Oscar said:


> Look, I am not saying you're wrong... you are though.


If you can't trust them outside the walls, yet trust them inside the walls, neither you nor they have become different people simply due to proximity adjustment...
If you feared them before, fear them still.
If you didn't fear them before, you've no use for fortified walls.


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## rice paddy daddy

I learned my leadership style as a 21 year old E-5 in a place where everybody was armed and half crazy to begin with.


----------



## John Oscar

Lucky Jim said:


> I've only just seen this thread, sorry if somebody's mentioned it before but in a post-apoc world couldn't we simply get a tank from an abandoned army base and start blasting any fortified position until they run up the white flag?


My fears are financial collapse, power grid failure and possibly pandemic. In the first 2 scenarios, I think the military would hold together, well enough to defend their primary assets anyway. In the last I personally believe people will be so happy to see more people, fighting will not be an issue.



Lucky Jim said:


> Alternatively even a simple mortar could keep lobbing shells into the position for hour after hour until they crack.


Mortars are scary as hell, would have to engage them just like any other group being hit by them.



Lucky Jim said:


> And we could also station a sniper with high-powered scope on permanent duty to take off any heads foolish enough to peek over the barricade.


Could only hope we could identify your position, and use our shooters/assault team to counter



Lucky Jim said:


> And how about letting off tear gas canisters upwind of the fort to keep them coughing and spluttering for hours on end?


Sounds annoying as hell.



Lucky Jim said:


> Even better than all that, we could decide not to attack at all and simply knock their door to ask if we can join them..


You would probably be very welcome to join, life in Mexico would seem like a sweet deal IMO. Once you had been there for a while, proved you had skills, done your part for the community, you could even become a citizen of the US.



Lucky Jim said:


> _"The greatest warrior is the one who never has to fight a battle"- Gen. Sun Tzu 600 BC _


I absolutely love this quote, The Art of War should be required reading.


----------



## John Oscar

Kauboy said:


> If you can't trust them outside the walls, yet trust them inside the walls, neither you nor they have become different people simply due to proximity adjustment...
> If you feared them before, fear them still.
> If you didn't fear them before, you've no use for fortified walls.


The Us and Them mentality is a powerful force, once someone becomes one us, in a high stress environment like literally being shot at, they can develop the friendship in a couple days, or even hours, that most think they have with the drinking buddy they have known for 20 years.


----------



## John Oscar

In 1800 the US population was just over 5m and 90% were farmers.

Today it is over 310m and less than 1% are farmers.

Less than 1% ever serve in the military. A tiny fraction of those will ever get any kind of sniper training.

I think it will come down to 2 things, food and fuel, those who have and can defend/trade it, and those that do not or cannot.

I think a force of 500 to 700 well fed and supplied preppers could take about anything thrown at it.


----------



## Lucky Jim

John Oscar said:


> _"The greatest warrior is the one who never has to fight a battle"- Gen. Sun Tzu 600 BC_
> I absolutely love this quote, The Art of War should be required reading.


Yah and another one I like is- 
_"Fight with your brain first and your weapons second"- tactical wargame champ Poor Old Spike_

So in a SHTF world when groups meet groups, a good introductory line might be _"You need us, we need you"_ instead of going in with all guns blazing..


----------



## John Oscar

That is how I see a pandemic

wow... look over there !!!! a GIRL !!!! MY BOY WILL NOT HAVE TO MARRY HIS SISTER !!!!!

Grid down starvation.... might be more like, WOOT DINNER !!!!

Financial collapse riots and destruction would last a month maybe, then just be sad as hell.


----------



## tango

Are you sure you want to do this?


----------



## John Oscar

tango said:


> Are you sure you want to do this?


Absolutely 100% positive, I will either make this happen or go down trying.


----------



## pheniox17

well you have overlooked my attack plans, such plans require a redesign of the concept.... 

a table top game called warhammer 40k maybe worth trying to find put about the siege of the fang (space wolves space marines) there was a games day battle many years ago, where this story was played out

I can't find a web link to the story but 

the fang is a fortress, one of the largest, 2 companies of space wolves had to defend it against a imperial guard army

one of the fiction moments that stand out, young blood claws (entry rank in the force) attacked the sieging enemy with nothing more then their teeth and claws, using a great tunnel network to get behind, wile dreadnoughts smashed supply columns 

I'm bringing this up only because fiction, and history can be a powerful design tool, there are people a lot smarter than us, with better skills able to come up with stories like this, that are about sieges....


there are ways to build a successful fort, I understand yours, but its missing many common features that are made to provide protection to the people.. I did suggest a keep before, going to again, a well built keep will provide a lot of protection to the non combatants and help drive the will to fight

we have plenty picked this apart, the main issues, side issues, its a good plan


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## John Oscar

Phen

A keep is designed for people fighting with swords, being slowed down with doors and gates, buying the defenders time to rest, narrow passages where a few defenders can make a stand and buy time. Funneling enemies into locations where they can be picked off with bows and crossbows.

In my design a person standing in the middle of the facility can be seen and shot by any defender, they have no place to run, no place to hide, they will be a sitting duck for anyone with a gun about 700 guns, all 700 of those guns firing from slits cut into the doors specifically designed for this purpose. Reinforced steel security doors designed for defence, frames welded into place. Unless the people conducting the assault have shape charges they will be standing by that door trying to open it for a long time, without cover, being shot at from the other 3 walls.

The point of the design is to produce enough food to sustain those within, all of the space that can be used for this purpose would have to be used for this purpose, we have absolutely no need for another massive structure blocking everyones sectors of fire. There is no king to protect, every ones life is worth just as much as the man/woman standing next to him and no more. The design is about protection and food for all.

I would love to try a game that has modern weapons, in the modern fortresses, that modern soldiers use.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Phen
> 
> A keep is designed for people fighting with swords, being slowed down with doors and gates, buying the defenders time to rest, narrow passages where a few defenders can make a stand and buy time. Funneling enemies into locations where they can be picked off with bows and crossbows.
> 
> In my design a person standing in the middle of the facility can be seen and shot by any defender, they have no place to run, no place to hide, they will be a sitting duck for anyone with a gun about 700 guns, all 700 of those guns firing from slits cut into the doors specifically designed for this purpose. Reinforced steel security doors designed for defence, frames welded into place. Unless the people conducting the assault have shape charges they will be standing by that door trying to open it for a long time, without cover, being shot at from the other 3 walls.
> 
> The point of the design is to produce enough food to sustain those within, all of the space that can be used for this purpose would have to be used for this purpose, we have absolutely no need for another massive structure blocking everyones sectors of fire. There is no king to protect, every ones life is worth just as much as the man/woman standing next to him and no more. The design is about protection and food for all.
> 
> I would love to try a game that has modern weapons, in the modern fortresses, that modern soldiers use.


I need to bring this up it annoyed me before, but this time it stands out more. How are you going to keep those people from being casualties of blue on blue fire? If they all face inwards and they all have slits, rounds are going to go into those slits from each other even if not from the enemy, it is a law of statistics.


----------



## Innkeeper

Arklatex said:


> All the talk of ancient seige weapons got me to thinking of what I could make out of commonly available material and a little ingenuity. Then I realized it's already been done and with a modern twist. Anybody ever watch Punkin Chunkin? These guys are launching pumpkins over 1500 yards... How about I launch some incendiary rounds or perhaps a basketball full of disease at the fort? The possibilities of horror to rain down are endless. it can be pulled with an armored vehicle as well.
> 
> View attachment 5767


I was thinking of some of those too....lol.... the 864m Trebuchet was a record breaker throwing a 10lb at one of those contests.


----------



## pheniox17

google games workshop,

but computer games, dawn of war is a small numbers strategy game... (you tube it)

command and conquer (another series that's modern weapons) 

there are lots in modern war genre available, even call of duty is a squad size first person shooter, but games are just that, gives you a small insight but never be the real thing (a old game called delta force black hawk down is the top fps I have ever seen) 

but to warhammer 40k, this is a very expensive game, i suggest a scale model of your facility, a imperial guard force (real numbers, so what you believe are combatants) and challenge people in that gaming circle...

from what the idea is, maybe add a small space marine scout squad (your "sf" team) 

the attackers rules, no walkers, no land raiders, no jump packs, no physic powers, limit armor, only space marine, imperial guard, sisters of battle, and orks can play against you, get some cannon fodder type troops to represent the "slaves" (orks have the best) and a numbers limit, 5000 total troops max (that's head count) 

have a prize for a successful attack, under take and hold rules

this is a dice game, the idea is to give you a visual idea of what others think (from a 13 yo to a 90yo) 

but this is 100% fantasy, so in real life the rules maybe a little different, but this is a full scale attack on your compound....


----------



## pheniox17

oh back to the keep, its more a symbol, even in middle ages, the wall got breached the keep will fall (look at Lord of the rings movie series)

I understand its just extra cost, even with shipping containers, and extra land use...

a lot civil war forts were just a modern keep... with cannons 

but there is a lot more to a fort than a fence/wall, this is what a bulk of people are trying to explain to you


----------



## Innkeeper

pheniox17 said:


> google games workshop,
> 
> but computer games, dawn of war is a small numbers strategy game... (you tube it)
> 
> command and conquer (another series that's modern weapons)
> 
> there are lots in modern war genre available, even call of duty is a squad size first person shooter, but games are just that, gives you a small insight but never be the real thing (a old game called delta force black hawk down is the top fps I have ever seen)
> 
> but to warhammer 40k, this is a very expensive game, i suggest a scale model of your facility, a imperial guard force (real numbers, so what you believe are combatants) and challenge people in that gaming circle...
> 
> from what the idea is, maybe add a small space marine scout squad (your "sf" team)
> 
> the attackers rules, no walkers, no land raiders, no jump packs, no physic powers, limit armor, only space marine, imperial guard, sisters of battle, and orks can play against you, get some cannon fodder type troops to represent the "slaves" (orks have the best) and a numbers limit, 5000 total troops max (that's head count)
> 
> have a prize for a successful attack, under take and hold rules
> 
> this is a dice game, the idea is to give you a visual idea of what others think (from a 13 yo to a 90yo)
> 
> but this is 100% fantasy, so in real life the rules maybe a little different, but this is a full scale attack on your compound....


 My Kid plays Warhammer 40k I helped fund his army until he graduated high school, but he also is a prepper within his means, and I do get him stuff for that still from time to time, (and normal holidays gifts).

I played Delta Force Black Hawk Down, it was an awesome game we even played it during down time when we were at mob station, back in 2010, we made it a squad vs. squad match, and even matched squads from different plattons against each other for bragging rights. Guys older like me and young alike enjoyed it.

I do like RTS games just to rack my brain, Hearts of Iron 2, Supreme Ruler 2020, and one of My Favorites Civil War generals 2, in my opinion one of the best RTS for small to large battlefields ever.


----------



## Mike45

pheniox17 said:


> well you have overlooked my attack plans, such plans require a redesign of the concept....
> 
> a table top game called warhammer 40k maybe worth trying to find put about the siege of the fang (space wolves space marines) there was a games day battle many years ago, where this story was played out
> 
> I can't find a web link to the story but
> 
> the fang is a fortress, one of the largest, 2 companies of space wolves had to defend it against a imperial guard army
> 
> one of the fiction moments that stand out, young blood claws (entry rank in the force) attacked the sieging enemy with nothing more then their teeth and claws, using a great tunnel network to get behind, wile dreadnoughts smashed supply columns
> 
> I'm bringing this up only because fiction, and history can be a powerful design tool, there are people a lot smarter than us, with better skills able to come up with stories like this, that are about sieges....


A fellow geek! I love the Warhammer 40k books, not a game guy but I have about 60 of the books.


----------



## pheniox17

Mike45 said:


> A fellow geek! I love the Warhammer 40k books, not a game guy but I have about 60 of the books.


yea I fell for the Viking nature of space wolves, and the structure..

I even have a leather bound rule book  (geek noises)


----------



## John Oscar

Arklatex said:


> All the talk of ancient seige weapons got me to thinking of what I could make out of commonly available material and a little ingenuity. Then I realized it's already been done and with a modern twist. Anybody ever watch Punkin Chunkin? These guys are launching pumpkins over 1500 yards... How about I launch some incendiary rounds or perhaps a basketball full of disease at the fort? The possibilities of horror to rain down are endless. it can be pulled with an armored vehicle as well.


This is freaking awesome, hell we could host these events and offer to buy the top couple at each !!!

I wonder if these guys are preppers.....

Am watching some of these video's on you tube, one gun cost 178k to build, freaking insane !!!

I think a contest offering about 20k for the winning weapon, 10k for second would give you better firepower than anything made without computers/welders/engineering students/heavy machining equipment, heck an annual contest, awards for distance and accuracy.

I can guarantee you if one of our preppers pulled up with one of these, storage would be free.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> I need to bring this up it annoyed me before, but this time it stands out more. How are you going to keep those people from being casualties of blue on blue fire? If they all face inwards and they all have slits, rounds are going to go into those slits from each other even if not from the enemy, it is a law of statistics.


use low caliber weapons and hope it does not take that many shots =/

Statistics would say enemy would be dead long before a stray/deflected round hit a slit perfectly.

But nothing is perfect, stuff happens.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> use low caliber weapons and hope it does not take that many shots =/
> 
> Statistics would say enemy would be dead long before a stray/deflected round hit a slit perfectly.
> 
> But nothing is perfect, stuff happens.


Stuff happens is not what you want to tell your investors or your loyal troops. You need to hold their lives in high regard. You would be better off with rows of houses (with gaps between) with overlapping and supporting fields of fire. This would make your defense much tougher and harder to crack if they got in. just M.O.


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> If he is smart enough not to talk to the judges, he would be smart enough to get the hint.


That's quite an assumption you are making, maybe he's smart enough to do it again and again. How many eyes are you going to tear out? How many to you think your citizens will allow before they have had enough?



John Oscar said:


> Why would they not be able to do this ?


I donno, this is your play kingdom, so I thought I would ask. So day 20 your citizens are tired of you tearing people's eyes out and vote for you to leave, you do so willingly? Also, they vote to allow your family is allowed to stay. Since you believe this will be one of the safest places on planet earth post SHTF, do you allow them to stay?


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Stuff happens is not what you want to tell your investors or your loyal troops. You need to hold their lives in high regard. You would be better off with rows of houses (with gaps between) with overlapping and supporting fields of fire. This would make your defense much tougher and harder to crack if they got in. just M.O.


That is exactly what the containers are..... just no gaps for them to hide in, and I have no plan to lie to anyone. Most shots would be towards the ground from people firing from upper levels.... sand would probably cut down on ricochet.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> That is exactly what the containers are..... just no gaps for them to hide in, and I have no plan to lie to anyone. Most shots would be towards the ground from people firing from upper levels.... sand would probably cut down on ricochet.


Sand is not that great of a stable building platform to be on , and no one is going to be happy walking in the amounts of sand it will take to make a difference in the fire. Plus the higher you make it the larger the opening they need to effectively put fire on attackers from, again history of castles is proof of this. The difference between crenellations and archers slits are *HUGE*. all of this off sets your height advantage, better off building at ground level in interspaced rows like I said if you build it halfway into the ground, it is a better insulation for heat and cold, and you can make smaller ports for firing out of like in a bunker.

The Gaps allow for 360 fire and overlapping fields from your neighbor, and you for them. Think strategically here.


----------



## John Oscar

Eagles700LvL said:


> That's quite an assumption you are making, maybe he's smart enough to do it again and again. How many eyes are you going to tear out? How many to you think your citizens will allow before they have had enough?


If this guy can talk another of the 2 snipers left into going before the judges and doing the same thing..... all I can say is wow.



Eagles700LvL said:


> I donno, this is your play kingdom, so I thought I would ask. So day 20 your citizens are tired of you tearing people's eyes out and vote for you to leave, you do so willingly? Also, they vote to allow your family is allowed to stay. Since you believe this will be one of the safest places on planet earth post SHTF, do you allow them to stay?


Really no clue what other options you think I would have... of course my family would stay.

I would try to get a mexican citizenship so i could be close to them, if the members said it was ok, if not, trying to protect them on my own would only be a hinderance, would probably try to stay close so I could attack anyone that tried to attack the facility.

Think I said somewhere before it would take like a 75% vote to throw someone out tho, since IMO it would be a death sentence.


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> If this guy can talk another of the 2 snipers left into going before the judges and doing the same thing..... all I can say is wow.


Doesn't have to continue to be snipers, anyone with a skilled set would do. How many eyeballs do you estimate your citizenship can handle being poked out?

Let's revisit Kauboy's question. What law have they broken by demanding different treatment? They make their request to the judges and they say no. The snipers go on strike. Now what? Eyeball poking right away? Do you take a vote to see if 75% want them out? What if 75% don't want them out and say since they are one of the most critical aspects of your defense plan that you give them what they want?

Are they going to be a set of laws that hasn't been covered yet? As a potential resident of your colony can you email me the laws ahead of time so I can decide if I want to invest my hard earned money?


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Sand is not that great of a stable building platform to be on , and no one is going to be happy walking in the amounts of sand it will take to make a difference in the fire. Plus the higher you make it the larger the opening they need to effectively put fire on attackers from, again history of castles is proof of this. The difference between crenellations and archers slits are *HUGE*. all of this off sets your height advantage, better off building at ground level in interspaced rows like I said if you build it halfway into the ground, it is a better insulation for heat and cold, and you can make smaller ports for firing out of like in a bunker.


The containers are bolted to footers in the ground, with a deep reinforced, overbuilt footer on the outside.



Innkeeper said:


> The Gaps allow for 360 fire and overlapping fields from your neighbor, and you for them. Think strategically here.


it blocks 98% of them from seeing the target, allows people to come up behind you, forces you to cover all directions, are all the houses able to stop bullets as well as those doors would be ? Since the prepper only has one wall to protect from bullet fire, would you sandbag that wall ? Would you sandbag a whole house ?


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> The containers are bolted to footers in the ground, with a deep reinforced, overbuilt footer on the outside.
> 
> it blocks 98% of them from seeing the target, allows people to come up behind you, forces you to cover all directions, are all the houses able to stop bullets as well as those doors would be ? Since the prepper only has one wall to protect from bullet fire, would you sandbag that wall ? Would you sandbag a whole house ?


Have you never been in a MG Emplacement, or Bunker? I am talking Britain, Hawaii, Normandy, Channel Islands WWII era, mostly buried views on whatever sides you want, solid sealable door. Many of which today have been converted into houses, all of which could give inspiration to modern survivalist camp housing. Imagine the saving in costs for heating and cooling the way 75% or more being underground, plus the ese of being able to connect them to each other via tunnels to move people around and be able to increase fields of fire where needed and to provide ease of escape in a dire moment.

And with all those footing and the extras you keep talking about through the whole thread better double your initial estimate of start up cost.


----------



## John Oscar

Eagles700LvL said:


> Doesn't have to continue to be snipers, anyone with a skilled set would do. How many eyeballs do you estimate your citizenship can handle being poked out?


The point of videotaping the original group making the demands, would be to make it available to the public, all groups would know what happened and this would not happen again.



Eagles700LvL said:


> Let's revisit Kauboy's question. What law have they broken by demanding different treatment? They make their request to the judges and they say no. The snipers go on strike. Now what? Eyeball poking right away? Do you take a vote to see if 75% want them out? What if 75% don't want them out and say since they are one of the most critical aspects of your defense plan that you give them what they want?
> 
> Are they going to be a set of laws that hasn't been covered yet? As a potential resident of your colony can you email me the laws ahead of time so I can decide if I want to invest my hard earned money?


This is a very strong and valid point, thank you.

Honestly I had not entered the mental chess tournament yet for laws, other than the basic framework.

In the scenario description I had assumed that this was something that was not covered, and if the group was allowed special treatment then everyone would be demanding it.

You are right, it would be much better to have something regarding this situation, and as many more we could think of, in a standard set of laws with punishments pre-determined and agreed on by as many as possible. Actually a set of laws for each SHTF category would be ideal. Yes every renter should have and know/agree on these upfront.

What would be your recommendation ?


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Have you never been in a MG Emplacement, or Bunker? I am talking Britain, Hawaii, Normandy, Channel Islands WWII era, mostly buried views on whatever sides you want, solid sealable door. Many of which today have been converted into houses, all of which could give inspiration to modern survivalist camp housing. Imagine the saving in costs for heating and cooling the way 75% or more being underground, plus the ese of being able to connect them to each other via tunnels to move people around and be able to increase fields of fire where needed and to provide ease of escape in a dire moment.


With 50% of the population starving to death, everyone seems oddly ok with abandoning their food...



Innkeeper said:


> And with all those footing and the extras you keep talking about through the whole thread better double your initial estimate of start up cost.


Piers are one of the reasons construction costs are cut, you drill a hole, drop in a form, level them all, then bring in a cement truck. When containers arrive they are stacked like numbered building blocks in a matter of a day or 2.


----------



## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> Footings are one of the reasons construction costs are cut, you drill a hole, drop in a form, level them all, then bring in a cement truck. When containers arrive they are stacked like numbered building blocks in a matter of a day or 2.


you know what, this is probably the best thought out response to this issue, yet geo thermal power is still a after thought?? even not having the generator and just the infrastructure set up in this phase of building, is worth a thought (yes boring a hole with the corrosion resistant pipe to a depth of nearly a km maybe a bit much but worth more investigation, as all you need is steam and you can go to boiler technology if you must)


----------



## Eagles700LvL

John Oscar said:


> The point of videotaping the original group making the demands, would be to make it available to the public, all groups would know what happened and this would not happen again.
> 
> This is a very strong and valid point, thank you.
> 
> Honestly I had not entered the mental chess tournament yet for laws, other than the basic framework.
> 
> In the scenario description I had assumed that this was something that was not covered, and if the group was allowed special treatment then everyone would be demanding it.
> 
> You are right, it would be much better to have something regarding this situation, and as many more we could think of, in a standard set of laws with punishments pre-determined and agreed on by as many as possible. Actually a set of laws for each SHTF category would be ideal. Yes every renter should have and know/agree on these upfront.
> 
> What would be your recommendation ?


My recommendation, I honestly don't know. Then again I'm not the one seeking investors. As a potential investor I would certainly like some input, but I want most of this mundane stuff ironed out before I started throwing money at it.

Laws (or terms) need to be ironed out before you seek buyers. That is unless you are going to offer a money back guarantee if you start changing terms or laws post my investment. Probably not your best course of action.


----------



## Kauboy

John Oscar said:


> The Us and Them mentality is a powerful force, once someone becomes one us, in a high stress environment like literally being shot at, they can develop the friendship in a couple days, or even hours, that most think they have with the drinking buddy they have known for 20 years.


You have a knack for blowing off truly dangerous situations with what you consider to be a psyhcologically based answer, when in reality, it is nothing more than fantasy assumption.
This is characteristic of whimsically charming folks suffering from psychopathy.
I mean no disrespect, but you might want to see a doctor, just to rule that out.


----------



## John Oscar

Eagles700LvL said:


> My recommendation, I honestly don't know. Then again I'm not the one seeking investors. As a potential investor I would certainly like some input, but I want most of this mundane stuff ironed out before I started throwing money at it.
> 
> Laws (or terms) need to be ironed out before you seek buyers. That is unless you are going to offer a money back guarantee if you start changing terms or laws post my investment. Probably not your best course of action.


The problem would be if you actually wrote the laws that would apply in a grid down scenario.... well that getting out might not be a good thing. By necessity they would have to be vague, and I would want these stated in plain text. Just stating the basic outline and saying the judges would write the rest as needed does not seem sufficient either....

Is to late at night, brain hurting, will sleep on it.

Honestly though, thank you, you have brought up some very good points, lots to think about.


----------



## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> The problem would be if you actually wrote the laws that would apply in a grid down scenario.... well that getting out might not be a good thing. By necessity they would have to be vague, and I would want these stated in plain text. Just stating the basic outline and saying the judges would write the rest as needed does not seem sufficient either....
> 
> Is to late at night, brain hurting, will sleep on it.
> 
> Honestly though, thank you, you have brought up some very good points, lots to think about.


its called a constitution, very common in social clubs and such

then a draft of punishments, to be passed into a part of your construction... under a "in the event of a unforseen scenario these laws punishments will become law in this club" or whatever

hang on why do I keep posting advice that's just getting ignored, my attack plans haven't had a response, my tactile gaming advice still hasn't merited a response, only things that do is anything related to questionable leadership skills


----------



## rice paddy daddy

Arklatex said:


> All the talk of ancient seige weapons got me to thinking of what I could make out of commonly available material and a little ingenuity. Then I realized it's already been done and with a modern twist. Anybody ever watch Punkin Chunkin? These guys are launching pumpkins over 1500 yards... How about I launch some incendiary rounds or perhaps a basketball full of disease at the fort? The possibilities of horror to rain down are endless. it can be pulled with an armored vehicle as well.
> 
> View attachment 5767


The disease idea is exactly why I mentioned a catapult throwing dead animals, such as cows, into the compound. This is an ancient practice.
And if you watch Punkin Chunkin there is a class for mechanical devices as well as the compressed air ones. These would be much simpler to build, after all the Romans did it more than twenty centuries ago.


----------



## 2000ShadowACE

You did not say what the fuel situation was like outside the walls of your fort. If diesel is available and bulldozers can be made to run, you have a problem. A dozer can easily be armored and drive right in your front door. A stake truck an be armored enough to reach the outer walls and filled with amonium nitrate to level the complex. A stationary fort is a sitting duck for anyone with a welder and a will to do harm.


----------



## James m

With disease I was thinking releasing mice rats and rodents alive to get into the food. Ala black death.


----------



## Lucky Jim

pheniox17 said:


> there are lots in modern war genre available, even call of duty is a squad size first person shooter, but games are just that, gives you a small insight but never be the real thing (a old game called delta force black hawk down is the top fps I have ever seen)


Yeah there's a lot of good games around, in fact a better term for them would be "military simulators" because you can learn a helluva lot about weapons and tactics from them and how to stay alive. The miltary use them regularly (below)-










In typical store-bought computer wargames you get lots of toys to play with, like these in Armed Assault 3-


















Plus of course navigation and situational awareness become second nature through playing wargames-

http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/general-talk/1203-pc-wargames-navigation-training-tools.html

Here's an Armed Assault 3 thread of mine under my fighting name 'Poor Old Spike'-

Weapon tests


----------



## pheniox17

Lucky Jim said:


> Yeah, in fact a better term for good computer wargames would be "military simulators" because you can learn a helluva lot about weapons and tactics from them and how to stay alive. The miltary use them regularly (below)-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In typical store-bought computer wargames you get lots of toys to play with, like these in Armed Assault 3-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus of course navigation and situational awareness become second nature through playing wargames-
> 
> http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/general-talk/1203-pc-wargames-navigation-training-tools.html
> 
> Here's an Armed Assault 3 thread of mine under my fighting name 'Poor Old Spike'-
> 
> Weapon tests


another gamer 

simulators are good but expensive, Queensland police, new south wales police and Australian federal police I know use them for training

but computer games are fantasy, what you have a health bar, a resporn point and such in real life???

but I agree a excellent training tool, just have to remember its fantasy, there were bases in Iraq with signs (as a joke) "no resporns past this point" and this has to be remembered,

I gave up online gaming as got too addicted


----------



## Kauboy

Ok, if this thread is going to evolve into a gaming one, I'm going to throw my hat in.
I recently started playing a game I'd played years ago. America's Army has released their latest beta, "Proving Grounds".
This version is a huge improvement over their last one, which flat out sucked.
If you're unfamiliar with the America's Army games, it is a team based first-person shooter that relies on good teamwork, and good comms.
No respawns, 1 or 2 rounds and you're down. The latest version allows for some self-bandaging as well as reviving teammates if they haven't taken one to the skull.
Opponents should be "secured" via zip ties to permanently remove them from the round. Matches are won by the first team to win 8 rounds. Matches can be CTF, bomb placement, or OBJ capture and hold.
The "run-n-gun" approach doesn't work here. You have to rely on cover and team strategy. I highly recommend it.
The best part? It's FREE! No pay scheme of any kind, no way to get an advantage just because you fork over a few bucks. There's no store, no subscription.
It is a game developed by the actual army as a recruiting and morale tool.

It is available through Steam so you can join up with friends easier. If anyone wants to try it out, let me know and I'll PM my username.


----------



## Prepadoodle

If you intend to house 1000 people, some sort of fortification is almost a necessity. 

Castles almost never fell to small groups of marauders. It takes time and a sizable force to capture one.

Any fixed installation will fall to a determined force with enough time and resources. This fact doesn't make such a structure worthless.

Any attacking force will face serious logistics problems in an extended siege.

If John is doing this as a money-making enterprise, so what? We live in a capitalist society, I don't have a problem with him making money for his time and effort.

His social structure probably won't work long term, but it's as good a starting point as any. Like all large complex projects (especially those involving people and their personalities) the specifics will evolve over time. Americans won't tolerate kings, as history has shown. The leaders will quickly recognize this or be overthrown. I expect these forts would eventually morph to something more democratic.

A fortress like this would make an ideal and obvious place to establish a trading post. This alone would make it worth protecting to the surrounding areas.

So yeah, it could be taken, but the amount of risk and effort would be a huge deterrence. And yes, a few ******** with a punkin chunker could lob stuff over the wall, but I'm pretty sure you would send a force to stop that kind of crap if you couldn't take them from the walls.

As I see it, the biggest hurdle will be getting the permits to build this thing in the first place. Nobody wants an armed compound of survivors in their back yard. Other than that, with some modification, it is a relatively sound concept.


----------



## vandelescrow

This is an effort in futility, every time someone comes up with a plan of attack the bar is moved, not through design changes of the facility but figments of your imagination. 

Originally you say no one is allowed on the inside of the facility for long and have to be searched through a series of doors. Why would anyone want to get in there, oh that's right, that is where you live. Where does everyone else live? No distinction in class here, so no possibility of revolt.

Where are the hydroponics? Per the drawings on the link in one of the posts, hey it's in the middle of the compound, but you just said there is nothing in the middle for bullets to ricochet off of but sand and nothing to hide behind. hmmm. Why the series of doors and body cavity searches?

Very simple way of destroying you. FIRE. Burn you out. Set the fields on fire and let the smoke suffocate you, anyone who tries to flee is shot.

Now let me guess you have already thought of that, you have a fire brigade with bullet proof fire trucks and respirators for all your denizens (gas masks only work in an oxygen environment, not smoke (look it up)). With your crops and live stock gone I guess it won't take long for the siege to be over. While your reduced to living off of what you stock piled my group will be free to keep you at bay while plundering those "easier targets". Till such time you either surrender or your denizens have you crucified.

How many people would it take to do this? Take a look at how the C.I.A. burned fields in Cuba. 1 Cat, 1 string, 1 lighter.

Also your going to say (as you have done to try to discredit others) no one will attack me, there are easier targets then me. Why would I plunder an easier group that might feed me for a day when your there? That's right, I destroy what I'm trying to get in the process. So? The knowledge on how to rebuild will still be there and now I don't have you in the way when it comes to trading or my other goals.

I have several other methods of removing you, but think on this one for a bit first.


----------



## Kauboy

He has unmovable determination. I equated it to psychopathy.
He will always have an answer, or pass it off as a non-issue.
His focus is on the end result, and to him, the end result will be perfect.
Thus, he has no reason to consider alternatives that show it to be otherwise.


----------



## Lucky Jim

pheniox17 said:


> ..but computer games are fantasy, what you have a health bar, a resporn point and such in real life???
> but I agree a excellent training tool, just have to remember its fantasy..


Most games have got "realism" settings, so just set it to "Extreme" if you want to play in a world o' hurt with just one life..

_"You were my brother and I loved you, but I told you never to take sides with anybody against the family".._


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> The problem would be if you actually wrote the laws that would apply in a grid down scenario.... well that getting out might not be a good thing.


In essence, I refuse to plan, cause someone might discover my plans... therefore I am completely unprepared? right?


----------



## SAR-1L

Kauboy said:


> This is an effort in futility, every time someone comes up with a plan of attack the bar is moved, not through design changes of the facility but figments of your imagination.


Exactly, that is why I have been saying this whole time this guy needs to go back to the land of oompa loompas and quit wasting our time.



Kauboy said:


> He has unmovable determination. I equated it to psychopathy.
> He will always have an answer, or pass it off as a non-issue.
> His focus is on the end result, and to him, the end result will be perfect.
> Thus, he has no reason to consider alternatives that show it to be otherwise.


I agree, see the concept he has come up with is nothing new, and mechanically it is
not without merit, though there will always be some flaw. The reason it would fail
is this ****ING CARE BEAR... believes his idea is flawless and still thinks everyone
grew up on Sesami street, and is friends by the end of the episode.

This clown if ever given the responsibility to protect a group would get all of them
killed.


----------



## Lucky Jim

vandelescrow said:


> This is an effort in futility, every time someone comes up with a plan of attack the bar is moved, not through design changes of the facility but figments of your imagination..


Like I said, just grab a tank from an abandoned army base and start shelling the fort; they can move the bar all they like but they'll never be able to argue with babies like this high-velocity Abrams round..
The first rule of warfare is *don't ****ing pussyfoot around!*

_"It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it"- Gen Douglas MacArthur_

_"You've got to shoot them in the guts, rip them up the belly! If you don't like to fight, I don't want you around. You'd better get out before I kick you out. We won in Africa and Italy because we had brains as well as guts, and that's why we're also going to win in Europe"- Gen George Patton_

_"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over"-William Tecumseh Sherman

"I have a high art, I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me"-Archilocus (Greek mercenary) 650 BC

"We need to DESTROY, not attack, not damage, not surround. I want to DESTROY the Republican Guard"- Gen Norman Schwarzkopf

"Go big or go home"- Donald Trump_


----------



## SAR-1L

Ah shit guys I got it! I know how to attack this... Kidnap John's right hand man along with his family.
Then stick remote detonated explosives up his ass and then threaten that if he doesn't go into the room
with John then you would kill his family. Soon as he steps gets close to John BOOM!!!!

Then you could stroll in and liberate the people, probably get a few supplies and continue on your merry
way to the next asshole with a plan to rule the world.

*John's Response... YOU CAN'T DO THAT, I DON'T HAVE A RIGHT HAND MAN, I HAVE A LEFT HAND MAN!*


----------



## John Oscar

Kauboy said:


> He has unmovable determination. I equated it to psychopathy.
> He will always have an answer, or pass it off as a non-issue.
> His focus is on the end result, and to him, the end result will be perfect.
> Thus, he has no reason to consider alternatives that show it to be otherwise.


If your not determined, your not going to get anything done

I try to answer every question, if somthing is an issue I say it is, sometimes I do not have the answer to how to mitigate this factor on the top of my head and have to think about it. Other times the facility structure already answers the issue, sometimes we disagree.

Have never once said the end result will be perfect, nothing is perfect, I made a list of problems I feel exist with traditional plans, I have a list for mine as well.

I am always considering alternatives, to help this design.


----------



## SquirrelBait

Get sappers, Dig a tunnel, Undermine, and blow up.


----------



## John Oscar

vandelescrow said:


> Originally you say no one is allowed on the inside of the facility for long and have to be searched through a series of doors. Why would anyone want to get in there, oh that's right, that is where you live. Where does everyone else live? No distinction in class here, so no possibility of revolt.


Inside the walls is America, all of the preppers who had a unit live here. I live in a unit just like all the others.



vandelescrow said:


> Where are the hydroponics? Per the drawings on the link in one of the posts, hey it's in the middle of the compound, but you just said there is nothing in the middle for bullets to ricochet off of but sand and nothing to hide behind. hmmm. Why the series of doors and body cavity searches?


Aquaponics, and yes there will be stuff in the middle, but if your trying to hide from 700 guns and all you have is some lettuce to hide behind.... well I consider this to be no cover.



vandelescrow said:


> Very simple way of destroying you. FIRE. Burn you out. Set the fields on fire and let the smoke suffocate you, anyone who tries to flee is shot.


If it was the right type of crops, and right time of year, this would be an option for you. If everyone is starving why would you burn all your food you hope to take by attacking ? Guys with torches would also be pretty good targets. shipping containers and dirt does not burn well.



vandelescrow said:


> Now let me guess you have already thought of that, you have a fire brigade with bullet proof fire trucks and respirators for all your denizens (gas masks only work in an oxygen environment, not smoke (look it up)). With your crops and live stock gone I guess it won't take long for the siege to be over. While your reduced to living off of what you stock piled my group will be free to keep you at bay while plundering those "easier targets". Till such time you either surrender or your denizens have you crucified.


Not sure how your feeding your force, yes if you destroy the fields life will be very very hard for the people living outside the walls, we will help them all we can, including giving them military assault training.



vandelescrow said:


> How many people would it take to do this? Take a look at how the C.I.A. burned fields in Cuba. 1 Cat, 1 string, 1 lighter.


Good point, going to be very hard living in mexico, or for anyone trying to grow crops since any field will be a massive target. I would suggest renting a unit.



vandelescrow said:


> Also your going to say (as you have done to try to discredit others) no one will attack me, there are easier targets then me. Why would I plunder an easier group that might feed me for a day when your there? That's right, I destroy what I'm trying to get in the process. So? The knowledge on how to rebuild will still be there and now I don't have you in the way when it comes to trading or my other goals.


Trying to take over the facility to make yourself a king would be a very strong motivator.



vandelescrow said:


> I have several other methods of removing you, but think on this one for a bit first.


Would love to hear your other ideas.


----------



## John Oscar

2000ShadowACE said:


> You did not say what the fuel situation was like outside the walls of your fort. If diesel is available and bulldozers can be made to run, you have a problem. A dozer can easily be armored and drive right in your front door. A stake truck an be armored enough to reach the outer walls and filled with amonium nitrate to level the complex. A stationary fort is a sitting duck for anyone with a welder and a will to do harm.


I personally think fuel, food, and bullets would all be in critical demand. The bulldozer would be a tuff attack to stop, once you drive up and over the berm in mexico the your friends will no longer be able to see you or provide covering fire. Out of the 75 yards you have left to cover hopefully some thermite would melt thru the cab.

As far as a wheeled vehicle is concerned barricades that will stop those are easy to make with things like telephone poles that would be in available.


----------



## John Oscar

SquirrelBait said:


> Get sappers, Dig a tunnel, Undermine, and blow up.


Digging a tunnel over 1,000 meters long is very hard to do, but depending on soil type is a possibility. If the bomb went off inside the facility the roof being reinforced greenhouse materials that would not hold much pressure. hopefully the facility would protect the people in mexico, if it detonated outside.... kinda depends on the bomb, and if our patrols see the excavation going on I guess.


----------



## Eagles700LvL

As potential investors, can you forward me a detailed (the more detailed the better) accounting of how the 1.25 million you are trying to raised will be used?

I'm not looking for 250k for land, 100k for containers, 200k for consultants, etc. Not high level stuff, I want details.


----------



## John Oscar

James m said:


> With disease I was thinking releasing mice rats and rodents alive to get into the food. Ala black death.


With 50% of the people starving to death, properly cooked mice and rats would probably be food choices, it was the fleas that killed everything.


----------



## SquirrelBait

John Oscar said:


> Digging a tunnel over 1,000 meters long is very hard to do, but depending on soil type is a possibility. If the bomb went off inside the facility the roof being reinforced greenhouse materials that would not hold much pressure. hopefully the facility would protect the people in mexico, if it detonated outside.... kinda depends on the bomb, and if our patrols see the excavation going on I guess.


But it's not impossible, Ask the Persians, Ask the Vietcong, Ask a ground squirrel.

The people on the inside will be under siege, The people on the outside have all the time in the world.

It would just take patience and determination.

Undermining means that the foundation and walls would be at risk.


----------



## John Oscar

Lucky Jim

I was in a cav unit my first trip to Korea, those tanks are freaking awesome, if someone could get one of those to me I would be toast.

I do not think they will because of the insane amount of fuel they burn, and in a grid down situation I still think the military would hold together well enough to protect their primary assets.

If they abandoned them all, anywhere near us, I would love to pick up a few. Heck even if I had to send a convoy with a semi able to carry one. I just do not think it would be this simple. I would love to have some towed artillery tho, or even some mortars, mortars scare me.


----------



## John Oscar

SquirrelBait said:


> But it's not impossible, Ask the Persians, Ask the Vietcong, Ask a ground squirrel.


Ahh I didn't say it was impossible, just very hard to do.



SquirrelBait said:


> The people on the inside will be under siege, The people on the outside have all the time in the world.


the people on the inside are growing food and living on stores if they had to, with 50% of the population starving to death, food in the surrounding area, especially enough to feed a full on siege force would be hard to get.



SquirrelBait said:


> It would just take patience and determination.


Yea lots of both of those is hard to beat. The hope woudl be that bloodthirsty killers would want to be doing bloodthirsty killing instead of sitting around in a seige so thier leader can have a fancy house.



SquirrelBait said:


> Undermining means that the foundation and walls would be at risk.


the walls are shipping containers bolted and in places welded together, taking out piers would not make them crumble, maybe sag or bend a little.


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> With 50% of the people starving to death, properly cooked mice and rats would probably be food choices, it was the fleas that killed everything.


So you do admit that parasites are what is wrong with the world? lol

Ok sorry that was really low, and really mean. Tell you what John,
I will let up, I have said my peace, anything here on out will be
a lot less hostile. Doesn't mean I agree with you but doesn't do 
any good to be a dick to you forever.


----------



## Prepadoodle

John Oscar said:


> If they abandoned them all, anywhere near us, I would love to pick up a few. Heck even if I had to send a convoy with a semi able to carry one. I just do not think it would be this simple. I would love to have some towed artillery tho, or even some mortars, mortars scare me.


There are small covers on the back sprockets. Remove these and you can pull the axles out and tow a tank with any big truck or tractor.


----------



## vandelescrow

I am surprised you replied, not very enlightened but at least you replied.

The subject of this thread is "how would you attack this?" not "why" but you keep going to the why. I agree in a shtf scenario people need to band together in order to survive, pool your resources, knowledge, man power and protect it from those who want to take it. Even if you were set up in Ft Knox or NORAD, someone will try to take it so GET OFF THE WHY. You will be attacked regardless the why. You setting this thing up on top of a hill sticking out like a soar thumb is just asking to be attacked.

The way you originally described this thing made me think of Khe Sanh in Vietnam, the only way they survived was constant resupply by air. What makes you think you will survive?

Now lets analyze your response.


John Oscar said:


> Aquaponics, and yes there will be stuff in the middle, but if your trying to hide from 700 guns and all you have is some lettuce to hide behind.... well I consider this to be no cover.


Do you really think Aquaponics is just a head of lettuce sticking out of the ground?



John Oscar said:


> If it was the right type of crops, and right time of year, this would be an option for you. If everyone is starving why would you burn all your food you hope to take by attacking ? Guys with torches would also be pretty good targets. shipping containers and dirt does not burn well.


Doesn't have to be your crops I'm burning, the surrounding woods and fields, if there is not snow on the ground it would be easy to get a large forest fire or prairie fire going, and I'm not burning you out, I'm smoking you out. That smoke will make nice cover for my guys to do other pleasant things to your facility while your choking. Yes the fire will eventually wipe out your crops, but that is not the intent, the intent is to attack and eliminate any threat. 1000 each armed is a threat to anyone trying to survive that is not living in your facility or the means to trade with you. And since you have that 1000 armed people, I guess you set the price.



John Oscar said:


> Not sure how your feeding your force, yes if you destroy the fields life will be very very hard for the people living outside the walls, we will help them all we can, including giving them military assault training.


Apparently you did not read my post, anyone exiting your facility will be shot. How will you be helping/training people outside the walls? And if you think the people living outside the walls will come to your aid? You better hope your trades were very fare and none of your troops exerted them selves on anyone in the middle of the night while, being drunk perhaps?



John Oscar said:


> Good point, going to be very hard living in mexico, or for anyone trying to grow crops since any field will be a massive target. I would suggest renting a unit.


Now we get down to it. Your not looking to make the facility better, your looking for renters. No thanks, I see so many flaws in your design. It's got merit but when ever anyone in this thread points out flaws, they are dismissed, is that what it will be like living there? "excuse me Mr Oscar, I noticed a gap in your field of fire over by ...." "Don't you worry none about that, it's by design"



John Oscar said:


> Trying to take over the facility to make yourself a king would be a very strong motivator.


Who said anything about becoming king? I'm liberating your surfs. Yes you say they are free to leave at any time, but they have to leave behind 3/4 of all their supplies as tribute to you and anything else you deem valuable. I suggest you read your previous posts if you want to argue this point.


----------



## John Oscar

It seems some people do not think that a group of preppers who do not drink beer and talk about how awesome they are on the weekends, maybe play paintball could survive together.

I would like to point out that the military is made up of everyone, from all walks of life, from street thugs to harvard graduates, all races, all thoughts, all religions. From high school quarterbacks to little nerds that never had a date, skinny, fat, smart, dumb as hell. One guy I remember from basic training had never seen a TV, another was a state champion wrestler, a mortician, a gymnast, several street thugs.

The point is they pulled together, they worked together because they had a common goal, ours will be the survival of our loved ones.


----------



## John Oscar

Prepadoodle said:


> There are small covers on the back sprockets. Remove these and you can pull the axles out and tow a tank with any big truck or tractor.


I did not know that, I had seen the mechanics go out with those big ass tracks (don't remember what they called them) and pull them around but this is good to know.

The primary purpose of the assault team I have mentioned would be to lead convoys to predetermined locations in search of supplies/equipment in the area. Like Wal-Mart distribution centers or pharmacies to get the medications that nobody else would have a clue what they are. Military bases were high on the list but will check them more frequently, maybe try to do a few flyovers periodically with a microlight if possible, and they did not shoot at me. We would plan on having the best coms possible, (MARS would be freaking amazing but maybe to much to ask for) and staying in contact with anything left from the military, might get a heads up from them, or maybe even some help, or a trading partner.

Also ties into needed skills, I have an uncle who is a pharmacist, (would recommend anyone buying a franchise give one of these guys a unit, or at least stock up on books covering drug compounds)

Anyway, thanks for the info, will keep it in mind.


----------



## vandelescrow

John Oscar said:


> It seems some people do not think that a group of preppers who do not drink beer and talk about how awesome they are on the weekends, maybe play paintball could survive together.
> 
> I would like to point out that the military is made up of everyone, from all walks of life, from street thugs to harvard graduates, all races, all thoughts, all religions. From high school quarterbacks to little nerds that never had a date, skinny, fat, smart, dumb as hell. One guy I remember from basic training had never seen a TV, another was a state champion wrestler, a mortician, a gymnast, several street thugs.
> 
> The point is they pulled together, they worked together because they had a common goal, ours will be the survival of our loved ones.


I never said they can't live together, you asked "how would you attack" so I'm attacking. And judging from all the methods people brought up, and the resistance we would be facing, I think the facility is loosing.

Don't get into the why's, you asked us to attack, so we are.


----------



## John Oscar

vandelescrow said:


> I am surprised you replied, not very enlightened but at least you replied.


I try to reply to every post, lots of why this thread is so long =/ doing that I don't have time to analyze and pick apart posts, I have just enough to give an honest answer or reply with what I think at the moment.



vandelescrow said:


> The subject of this thread is "how would you attack this?" not "why" but you keep going to the why. I agree in a shtf scenario people need to band together in order to survive, pool your resources, knowledge, man power and protect it from those who want to take it. Even if you were set up in Ft Knox or NORAD, someone will try to take it so GET OFF THE WHY. You will be attacked regardless the why. You setting this thing up on top of a hill sticking out like a soar thumb is just asking to be attacked.


Any field planted with crops will stick out like a sore thumb asking to be attacked. If I can convince people to go to the next field and think this one is not worth it I have won the fight without firing a bullet.



vandelescrow said:


> The way you originally described this thing made me think of Khe Sanh in Vietnam, the only way they survived was constant resupply by air. What makes you think you will survive?


The facility will not need any constant resupply, this is for the refugees, I wish them the best, will help them all I can, will bring their small children inside the walls for protection if they ask, but I will not endanger those within the facility to do it.

Now lets analyze your response.



vandelescrow said:


> Do you really think Aquaponics is just a head of lettuce sticking out of the ground?


No, but the way this system is designed the tanks holding the water and fish are underground, mainly to keep the temperature lower and more constant for them in texas, but i love the design. If you are standing in the middle of the facility you will have people who can hit you from any angle, from all directions, so for a lot of the people shooting at you, you would have absolutely no cover, and when you move you would have the same issue, just different shooters.



vandelescrow said:


> Doesn't have to be your crops I'm burning, the surrounding woods and fields, if there is not snow on the ground it would be easy to get a large forest fire or prairie fire going, and I'm not burning you out, I'm smoking you out. That smoke will make nice cover for my guys to do other pleasant things to your facility while your choking. Yes the fire will eventually wipe out your crops, but that is not the intent, the intent is to attack and eliminate any threat. 1000 each armed is a threat to anyone trying to survive that is not living in your facility or the means to trade with you. And since you have that 1000 armed people, I guess you set the price.


Trees would be cleared away from the facility to produce our kill zone/farm area, smoke also makes it harder for you to breathe and move, running that 1k meters in the smoke to do nasty things to us would not be good for you either.



vandelescrow said:


> Apparently you did not read my post, anyone exiting your facility will be shot. How will you be helping/training people outside the walls? And if you think the people living outside the walls will come to your aid? You better hope your trades were very fare and none of your troops exerted them selves on anyone in the middle of the night while, being drunk perhaps?


There is a 9' berm going around the facility you will not be able to see anyone exiting. There will be a separate police force for both sides of the boarder, if one of our people do somthing wrong, they will be punished.



vandelescrow said:


> Now we get down to it. Your not looking to make the facility better, your looking for renters. No thanks, I see so many flaws in your design. It's got merit but when ever anyone in this thread points out flaws, they are dismissed, is that what it will be like living there? "excuse me Mr Oscar, I noticed a gap in your field of fire over by ...." "Don't you worry none about that, it's by design"


No, once again trying to reply to everyone, If someone poses a difficult situation I take notes and give the best response I can. If someone posed the same issue to you would you give up and abandon the facility ?



vandelescrow said:


> Who said anything about becoming king? I'm liberating your surfs. Yes you say they are free to leave at any time, but they have to leave behind 3/4 of all their supplies as tribute to you and anything else you deem valuable. I suggest you read your previous posts if you want to argue this point.


They are free to leave with anything they came with, or earned while with us, members can load up everything they have stored and leave with it all if that is their choice. I think this issue spawned from a question that I replied to saying if someone was starving and wanted protection and food in mexico, and had 5 cans of 5.56 ammo we would charge them 4 for admittance, especially if we were low on ammo. Admittance would include food and shelter until they were strong enough to work again or able to construct/earn there own place. There would come a point when we would have to be picky with even the refugees, many if not most will have to be turned away, I am happy that by this time the refugees/mexicans will be handling this job.


----------



## Lucky Jim

John Oscar said:


> Lucky Jim
> I was in a cav unit my first trip to Korea, those tanks are freaking awesome, if someone could get one of those to me I would be toast.
> I do not think they will because of the insane amount of fuel they burn...I would love to have some towed artillery tho, or even some mortars...


Yeah if the bad guys ask for trouble let's give it 'em. A fixed position is a sitting duck like people have said earlier in this sensational thread..

A Sherman checks out a village in Korea, May 1951-


----------



## John Oscar

vandelescrow said:


> I never said they can't live together, you asked "how would you attack" so I'm attacking. And judging from all the methods people brought up, and the resistance we would be facing, I think the facility is loosing.
> 
> Don't get into the why's, you asked us to attack, so we are.


I am listing the threats according to likelihood of facing them, once I am done (probably never be able to think of them all, even here) this priority list will give me a focus to address with either design changes or countermeasures the facility would need to acquire with profits.

Some things there is just nothing you can do about, no matter what you do, I think focusing on these is a lot of the reason a lot of people do not prep, they hit a wall and think what is the point. I hit a wall and look for a ladder, no ladder a grappling hook, NO? stuff to stack up, NO ? human ladder.... eventually you find an answer, if you do not you write it down to come back later with a clear mind and maybe some advice if you can get it and move on around the damn thing.

Nobody will ever think of everything, Nothing is perfect, but that is no reason to not try.


----------



## John Oscar

SAR-1L said:


> So you do admit that parasites are what is wrong with the world? lol
> 
> Ok sorry that was really low, and really mean. Tell you what John,
> I will let up, I have said my peace, anything here on out will be
> a lot less hostile. Doesn't mean I agree with you but doesn't do
> any good to be a dick to you forever.


Thank you Sar, I think it is the opinions of those that do not agree that people can learn the most from.

For anyone that said anything supporting I should take the time to say thank you as well.

Takes balls to say something positive in the face of opposition, is far to easy to join the feeding frenzy. Thank You.

Also think I should have been more careful with the title of the thread, people have different opinions on what an attack is....


----------



## pheniox17

I don't know if I have said this already but since my last post this line seems right

for every problem there is a solution!! 

its a shame so many forget that, I have given heaps of entertainment to this topic hoping someone would figure out that line, the problem was to sound board a attack, many have come up with real modern warfare plans to attack it, now its time to reflect on these problems and come up with a solution


----------



## Smokin04

I would never answer how I would attack. We maybe forced to cross paths one day, and I would not reveal the tactics I use to dismantle your defenses. While I only read a few pages before responding...I can say that "No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking." - Voltaire


----------



## Ralph Rotten

So this is a skyscraper of shipping containers? I'd shoot holes thru it, that's how I'd attack it. I'd draw a door with my AK and run through it, or sawzaw a hole, or just run something into it and punch a hole in it. They are not armored, just thin steel. They can;t even be buried fully or they'll crush (unless you put them in a hardened revetment or some subterranian walls.)


----------



## Old SF Guy

he he he ...and it starts again.......LOL


----------



## pheniox17

Old SF Guy said:


> he he he ...and it starts again.......LOL


I wonder if this thread will make 100 pages??


----------



## John Oscar

Gahh i'm all freaking out, can't wait for SF's attack plan and he gets all mooshy on me......


----------



## pheniox17

Old SF Guy said:


> BAMMMM...got you your ass....see...all unsuspecting and shit....wham!


gin?


----------



## shotlady

so, sf yer gonna stand outside reading ******* poetry and then get em. rather sneaky, but it is a good plan. you need to go remember esope's fables get them to gather round and have glue traps for seating!!! hahaha


----------



## Kauboy

Haikus are easy.
Though sometimes, they don't make sense.
Refrigerator.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Outdoor Forums mobile app


----------



## pheniox17

Old SF Guy said:


> I'm simply a man of faith...trying to make my way in life... Can I join your group? I will work for food... hey these guys are sort of oppressive aren't they...hey I'm just working here....wow they take our food but we can't come inside....sounds like we are getting screwed...naw hey..I'm just here to work... I wouldn't take that shit if I were you though....


carful man, you may get your eyes taken out for speaking such blasphemy about our dear leader


----------



## John Oscar

Look man, I came here starving, everyone else turned us away, son was almost dead, now he is happy, healthy, learning to read.....


----------



## SAR-1L

John Oscar said:


> Look man, I came here starving, everyone else turned us away, son was almost dead, now he is happy, healthy, learning to read.....


I know the answer to this riddle!
Should have ate your son, see fix two things at once! Ta'da! lol


----------



## nephilim

Sarin nerve gas. Colourless, Odourless, but it sure isn't painless.


----------



## pheniox17

nephilim said:


> Sarin nerve gas. Colourless, Odourless, but it sure isn't painless.


I thought we had stopped playing the fantasy game??


----------



## rice paddy daddy

The "castle" will collapse from within, based on what I have read of the plans to run the place.


----------



## nephilim

pheniox17 said:


> I thought we had stopped playing the fantasy game??


Some crazy militia dictator may have some from a raid on a military base. Could happen.


----------



## pheniox17

nephilim said:


> Some crazy militia dictator may have some from a raid on a military base. Could happen.


someone watch Segal's the patriot??

in western countries bio weapons will have more fail safes than a air plane, and I see walking dead been right with a thermal nuclear device in every CDC building "just in case"...... or be complete fiction

then comes the question who would steal such a weapon, wait forget it there are some really ****ed up people out there that will release it for kicks


----------



## Lucky Jim

SquirrelBait said:


> Get sappers, Dig a tunnel, Undermine, and blow up.


Yay mate, you're DANGEROUS, I'll be your wingman anytime..


----------



## Kauboy

If the Governor can take a prison, a horde of people can take your compound.

... of course he had a tank... that helped a bit...


----------



## Innkeeper

pheniox17 said:


> someone watch Segal's the patriot??
> 
> in western countries bio weapons will have more fail safes than a air plane, and I see walking dead been right with a thermal nuclear device in every CDC building "just in case"...... or be complete fiction
> 
> then comes the question who would steal such a weapon, wait forget it there are some really ****ed up people out there that will release it for kicks


was not Thermonuclear, was FAE (Fuel Air Explosive) nastier then Napalm in my opinion, and does not deny the area for generations, but would "cleanse" the facility none of those nasty's would survive fire on that level.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Lucky Jim
> 
> I was in a cav unit my first trip to Korea, those tanks are freaking awesome, if someone could get one of those to me I would be toast.
> 
> I do not think they will because of the insane amount of fuel they burn, and in a grid down situation I still think the military would hold together well enough to protect their primary assets.
> 
> If they abandoned them all, anywhere near us, I would love to pick up a few. Heck even if I had to send a convoy with a semi able to carry one. I just do not think it would be this simple. I would love to have some towed artillery tho, or even some mortars, mortars scare me.


 A Semi will not haul one of those you need a HET, that is the only thing made to haul one , and a Special trailer. Mortars are easier to use if you have Tube or MLRS you need people trained to use them, tube because you use the wrong powder charge you will way miss or under shoot , MLRS well it is high tech and not just any monkey can operate it you need a properly trained one. And while any officer or competent NCO can be trained to call for fire, you need a good FDC to work it up for the Arty guys they are the ones who tell them just how to Lay their gun, and if it is tube if you want accuracy make sure you have a good fister they can eyeball what a just basically qualified officer or noncom need to figure out.

I was both 11 series and 13 and I know 11's think most arty guys a re stupid and anyone can do their job, but remember guys who fail out of arty school get sent to infantry school.


----------



## Innkeeper

Prepadoodle said:


> There are small covers on the back sprockets. Remove these and you can pull the axles out and tow a tank with any big truck or tractor.


Yes, but not anyone knows this unless they are familiar with them. I only learned that in Iraq when the Hull Mechs cross trained us Armament guys to assist them in their work , the same as we cross trained them to do Turret work. when you have only 12 guys 6 hull and 6 Small arms and Turret guys to maintain 15 broke down and wore out vehicles you need to help each other.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> It seems some people do not think that a group of preppers who do not drink beer and talk about how awesome they are on the weekends, maybe play paintball could survive together.
> 
> I would like to point out that the military is made up of everyone, from all walks of life, from street thugs to harvard graduates, all races, all thoughts, all religions. From high school quarterbacks to little nerds that never had a date, skinny, fat, smart, dumb as hell. One guy I remember from basic training had never seen a TV, another was a state champion wrestler, a mortician, a gymnast, several street thugs.
> 
> The point is they pulled together, they worked together because they had a common goal, ours will be the survival of our loved ones.


The key to being a prepper is most do not trust everyone else unless they know them real well, this is why we prep. You are not going to get 1000 strangers to trust each other out of the blue, whether they drink or not , believe in god or not. They key is trust, unless they know each other from the get go and implicitly trust them with their lives and the lives of their families it will not work. You seem like a good guy, but I would never trust you with my life let alone with my families lives. After 21 years in the Army and going all over the world with it, I would probably trust my family to maybe 50 of them. Even if you worked out all the threat factors, you will not find 1000 prepper families who will give blind trust to you or anyone else.


----------



## Innkeeper

> =John Oscar;152573
> There is a 9' berm going around the facility you will not be able to see anyone exiting. There will be a separate police force for both sides of the boarder, if one of our people do somthing wrong, they will be punished.


The 9' Berm is a new one you never mentioned it before, if they can not see in to you, then you will not be able to see out and see them sneaking up.....that blind spot issue works both ways. Also do not tell me "we will be looking from a higher Vantage point" because that just makes you a target and it is easier for those outside to see in then you on the inside to see out, the farther away you are the less height you need to look over, simple engineering.


----------



## Innkeeper

Kauboy said:


> Ok, if this thread is going to evolve into a gaming one, I'm going to throw my hat in.
> I recently started playing a game I'd played years ago. America's Army has released their latest beta, "Proving Grounds".
> This version is a huge improvement over their last one, which flat out sucked.
> If you're unfamiliar with the America's Army games, it is a team based first-person shooter that relies on good teamwork, and good comms.
> No respawns, 1 or 2 rounds and you're down. The latest version allows for some self-bandaging as well as reviving teammates if they haven't taken one to the skull.
> Opponents should be "secured" via zip ties to permanently remove them from the round. Matches are won by the first team to win 8 rounds. Matches can be CTF, bomb placement, or OBJ capture and hold.
> The "run-n-gun" approach doesn't work here. You have to rely on cover and team strategy. I highly recommend it.
> The best part? It's FREE! No pay scheme of any kind, no way to get an advantage just because you fork over a few bucks. There's no store, no subscription.
> It is a game developed by the actual army as a recruiting and morale tool.
> 
> It is available through Steam so you can join up with friends easier. If anyone wants to try it out, let me know and I'll PM my username.


 I love that game yes the last one sucked I play it with My cousin who is also Army, and my kid and a buddy of ours from time to time. I will send you a pm though and maybe we can catch up with you , we use to play on the 2v2 and 5v5 match ladders.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> With 50% of the population starving to death, everyone seems oddly ok with abandoning their food...


He who lives to fight another day...... beats dying and losing your food, you retreat they celebrate hard get drunk , stupid careless, you come back in via both your escape tunnels and cover them from outside, now you have the upper hand, you can make the escape tunnel lock so they can not follow or find the door as you escape, not really hard to do and where the tunnel exits outside the wire, well that is locked from the inside as well but if you camouflage it right no one will find it. Use the knowledge Uncle Sam and History have taught you.


----------



## Innkeeper

I think I am finally caught up, this will teach me to spending yesterday with the Dog and my nieces. lol


----------



## jimb1972

The harder you make a target the more convinced people will be that there is something inside worth taking. Being unseen and appearing non threatening is almost always the best defense, you will be placing a big red target on yourself and everyone in your compound. Given time and determination there is no defense that is unbreachable, and the harder it is and more it takes to conquer the worse it will be for the conquered. Attackers are more likely to walk away from a lesser target that is harder than expected because of the lesser prize they believe it to contain.


----------



## John Oscar

The Governor did not win, and the dumbasses never should have left, all they had to do was clear it again, or have them follow a car with a stuck horn away from the facility, now they are food..... stuck in a railcar....


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> A Semi will not haul one of those you need a HET, that is the only thing made to haul one , and a Special trailer. Mortars are easier to use if you have Tube or MLRS you need people trained to use them, tube because you use the wrong powder charge you will way miss or under shoot , MLRS well it is high tech and not just any monkey can operate it you need a properly trained one. And while any officer or competent NCO can be trained to call for fire, you need a good FDC to work it up for the Arty guys they are the ones who tell them just how to Lay their gun, and if it is tube if you want accuracy make sure you have a good fister they can eyeball what a just basically qualified officer or noncom need to figure out.
> 
> I was both 11 series and 13 and I know 11's think most arty guys a re stupid and anyone can do their job, but remember guys who fail out of arty school get sent to infantry school.


Heck, I now know all I have to do is pop out the rear axle and get a big tractor....

Is almost funny how when rounds are fired it is a butter bar who's ass is on the line.

I don't know anything about MLRS other than standing between 2 of them on molly picture day at Bragg, wow...

I think 11B is an option for anyone failing out of anything..... Some of the dumbest and smartest people I ever met were infantry, one was in mensa.

I had a clerk once that originally signed up to be infantry, while in training they realised his fingers being burnt off as a child would hinder his abilities, everything past the first knuckle was gone (we called him knuckles cuz that is what he had), he threatened a lawyer and threw a fit, they caved and told him to pick any other MOS, he ended up being a computer programmer working in a supply room =/


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> The key to being a prepper is most do not trust everyone else unless they know them real well, this is why we prep. You are not going to get 1000 strangers to trust each other out of the blue, whether they drink or not , believe in god or not. They key is trust, unless they know each other from the get go and implicitly trust them with their lives and the lives of their families it will not work. You seem like a good guy, but I would never trust you with my life let alone with my families lives. After 21 years in the Army and going all over the world with it, I would probably trust my family to maybe 50 of them. Even if you worked out all the threat factors, you will not find 1000 prepper families who will give blind trust to you or anyone else.


Honestly I do not know anyone I would trust the life of my family to, that is why my preps would be in that unit, and government/leadership would be as small and decentralised as possible. I am hoping SF volunteers for leader of defence forces in case of attack.....


----------



## Lucky Jim

jimb1972 said:


> ...The harder you make a target the more convinced people will be that there is something inside worth taking.


Yah, I think i'll make my flat look run-down with dirty windows, pigeon shit down the outside walls, peeling paint, weeds sprouting from between the roof slates, clogged up drainpipes, cobwebs etc.
Oh wait a minute..


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> The 9' Berm is a new one you never mentioned it before, if they can not see in to you, then you will not be able to see out and see them sneaking up.....that blind spot issue works both ways. Also do not tell me "we will be looking from a higher Vantage point" because that just makes you a target and it is easier for those outside to see in then you on the inside to see out, the farther away you are the less height you need to look over, simple engineering.


The 9' berm is pushed up to the back of a single row of shipping containers forming a perimeter around the facility, this is where livestock and refugee's/mexicans will live, it is a large part of the protection offered with our wall shooters providing cover for them while in the field, the kill zone is past this berm so anyone laying on the top would have cover to shoot at anyone trying to get through kill zone. The berm would be lightly sloped so it provides no cover from shooters on the walls. I have talked about the berm several times, the most recent I can think of is how a homemade armored bulldozer would be stopped. Or at least my thoughts on the best way to try and stop it.


----------



## John Oscar

Lucky Jim said:


> Yah, I think i'll make my flat look run-down with dirty windows, pigeon shit down the outside walls, peeling paint, weeds sprouting from between the roof slates, clogged up drainpipes, cobwebs etc.
> Oh wait a minute..


Good plan, I would still check it for a surviving block of welfare cheese tho....

Never mind I don't think they do that anymore..... Is a shame, I miss those huge blocks you could get from a crackhead for $5

anyway, food, water in pipes toilet heater ect....


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> He did not win, and the dumbasses never should have left, all they had to do was clear it again, or have them follow a car with a stuck horn away from the facility, now they are food..... stuck in a railcar....


See your counting them out again, you are like the people who betrayed them and put them there "underestimating" them. That is a very great weakness underestimating your opponent. I agree they should have followed in the first place and finished him off, but hey. Could you do like is done with the psycho lil girl? "just look at the flowers"


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Honestly I do not know anyone I would trust the life of my family to, that is why my preps would be in that unit, and government/leadership would be as small and decentralised as possible. I am hoping SF volunteers for leader of defence forces in case of attack.....


Your trusting them by letting them be next to your family, would only take for a few of them to recruit a few others and turn on all of you and take what you have. By letting them live there with you, you are offering up trust and not taking enough time to actually make that trust worthwhile.


----------



## Innkeeper

Lucky Jim said:


> Yah, I think i'll make my flat look run-down with dirty windows, pigeon shit down the outside walls, peeling paint, weeds sprouting from between the roof slates, clogged up drainpipes, cobwebs etc.
> Oh wait a minute..


Letting it look run down is fine, easier for people to glance at it and dismiss it, all except letting the drainpipe get clogged, basically let nature make a ghillie suit for your house or B.O.S. it should work.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Good plan, I would still check it for a surviving block of welfare cheese tho....
> 
> Never mind I don't think they do that anymore..... Is a shame, I miss those huge blocks you could get from a crackhead for $5
> 
> anyway, food, water in pipes toilet heater ect....


 Actually it is a good idea, and unless you go in with a fire team or squad, anyone on the inside has the advantage of surprise and you would be dead before you said "oh Lucy I'm home". and if you are down to scrounging water from the toilet or water heater chances are it is just you and your family and you would make them stay back under cover, in which case you would never come out if it was an active preppers place. And if your checking those places, which we all know have water but not huge amounts your not with a large group, large groups would hit places with large amounts. So do not dismiss this comment as O h I had a full platoons worth of back up and heavy machine guns on trucks in the drive way.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> He who lives to fight another day...... beats dying and losing your food, you retreat they celebrate hard get drunk , stupid careless, you come back in via both your escape tunnels and cover them from outside, now you have the upper hand, you can make the escape tunnel lock so they can not follow or find the door as you escape, not really hard to do and where the tunnel exits outside the wire, well that is locked from the inside as well but if you camouflage it right no one will find it. Use the knowledge Uncle Sam and History have taught you.


This was my original thought, I would have a very well hidden BOL a few clicks from my house and be able to stash the wife/kids there. Come back and settle things, figured if I hung around the BOL I would leave to many signs, trails, kids playing trampling stuff ect. I got a little older and realised that I personally am not rambo, numbers matter, and the only food source will eventually come down to people like me with stuff in my home, so the chances of them seeing this strategy before would be good.

If your counting on 10 or 20 people getting drunk and you being able to kill them all.... hell maybe you are rambo, maybe get some friends to help, it would be very possible, if they have not seen it before and stuck around, and all of them got drunk, your loses would be minimal, assuming they did not get you by surprise, before you could get the family evacuated.

I thought about it a lot, even if that was still my plan, I would still rent a storage unit for $100 a month that I know will not get robbed, with some emergency supplies incase mine are stolen, yea 6 months after SHTF or something like that, there would probably be a vote on units from people that never showed up, but knowing how distrusting preppers are and people like me saying slippery slope what do you think the chances of them voting to open them would be ? I do not know for sure myself, nothing is guaranteed in this life, you have to go with what you think is right, whatever that is, I wish you luck.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> Actually it is a good idea, and unless you go in with a fire team or squad, anyone on the inside has the advantage of surprise and you would be dead before you said "oh Lucy I'm home". and if you are down to scrounging water from the toilet or water heater chances are it is just you and your family and you would make them stay back under cover, in which case you would never come out if it was an active preppers place. And if your checking those places, which we all know have water but not huge amounts your not with a large group, large groups would hit places with large amounts. So do not dismiss this comment as O h I had a full platoons worth of back up and heavy machine guns on trucks in the drive way.


I think it is a great idea, but I also think eventually most good targets would be hit, a marauding group would probably have slaves checking houses and doing the menial/dangerous work. There is a good chance a slave would not turn you in for some food though.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> This was my original thought, I would have a very well hidden BOL a few clicks from my house and be able to stash the wife/kids there. Come back and settle things, figured if I hung around the BOL I would leave to many signs, trails, kids playing trampling stuff ect. I got a little older and realised that I personally am not rambo, numbers matter, and the only food source will eventually come down to people like me with stuff in my home, so the chances of them seeing this strategy before would be good.
> 
> If your counting on 10 or 20 people getting drunk and you being able to kill them all.... hell maybe you are rambo, maybe get some friends to help, it would be very possible, if they have not seen it before and stuck around, and all of them got drunk, your loses would be minimal, assuming they did not get you by surprise, before you could get the family evacuated.
> 
> I thought about it a lot, even if that was still my plan, I would still rent a storage unit for $100 a month that I know will not get robbed, with some emergency supplies incase mine are stolen, yea 6 months after SHTF or something like that, there would probably be a vote on units from people that never showed up, but knowing how distrusting preppers are and people like me saying slippery slope what do you think the chances of them voting to open them would be ? I do not know for sure myself, nothing is guaranteed in this life, you have to go with what you think is right, whatever that is, I wish you luck.


No I meant for your compound, if the position become untenable, you bug out hence the tunnels connecting each home and outside the wire then the group comes back and blammo.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> I think it is a great idea, but I also think eventually most good targets would be hit, a marauding group would probably have slaves checking houses and doing the menial/dangerous work. There is a good chance a slave would not turn you in for some food though.


any group that has slaves would not trust them enough to let them check houses, they might hold back on what they find , they could find weapons....slaves will be kept locked up tight under a watchful eye when they are not doing what is being expected of them.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> any group that has slaves would not trust them enough to let them check houses, they might hold back on what they find , they could find weapons....slaves will be kept locked up tight under a watchful eye when they are not doing what is being expected of them.


Almost all of the work at the concentration camps were done by prisoners, keep them naked and they have no place to hide stuff, but I could be wrong, have been before, will be again.


----------



## Innkeeper

John Oscar said:


> Almost all of the work at the concentration camps were done by prisoners, keep them naked and they have no place to hide stuff, but I could be wrong, have been before, will be again.


 but you said marauders would use them to search house so as to set off any traps or to do the hard labor, which is what my response was too. Do you not really read what we are responding too in the quote? That could account for some of the confusion you seem to have in different responses through out the thread.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> but you said marauders would use them to search house so as to set off any traps or to do the hard labor, which is what my response was too. Do you not really read what we are responding too in the quote? That could account for some of the confusion you seem to have in different responses through out the thread.


the comparison was with guards/prisoners and marauders/slaves, very similar relationship though the prisoners knew they would die eventually.


----------



## John Oscar

Innkeeper said:


> No I meant for your compound, if the position become untenable, you bug out hence the tunnels connecting each home and outside the wire then the group comes back and blammo.


The reason I would not have an escape route in a compound of this nature is the final defence feature of the design, you would have 300 safe rooms, on 3 different levels, each one able to cover at least 200 of the others, it would take a while for a group to break into any of them, the entire time they would be taking fire the other 200 by whoever was left, 200 10 year olds if it came to it firing 22 rifles at me while I am trying to break into a reinforced steel door in a steel frame with no cover would not be a good position to be in.

Something as simple as a bathroom fart fan, pulling air from the outside of the complex thru a basic filter system would create positive pressure in the safe room keeping anything released inside the complex from infiltrating the safe rooms. Hook the hose to the inside port if something happens on the outside. Creating something of this nature for the entire facility but with a much better filtration system would be a simple matter, the focus being on positive air pressure keeping outside fumes and particulates at bay.

The greenhouse roof, would not hold hardly any explosive pressure within the facility, and could be seen thru (at least blurred images) by at least the safe rooms on the top level, those would be able to provide suppressive fire, perhaps after an alarm that signals the walls have been taken to prevent friendly fire.

The escape tunnel would have to be a major project because for someone to be assaulting the interior with the numbers it would require, the refugees in mexico would already be gone, thus escaping to this area would be suicide.


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## John Oscar

I designed the facility with a grid down (for years) scenario in mind. I think the primary threat would come from these quasi military groups that currently run around today, they have a chain of command, recruiting personnel, experience killing (with no morals telling them not to), and are absolutely ruthless. No I do not mean militia groups, I mean gangs. They are barely kept under control today with all of the technology the police have at their disposal, remove that tech, and the gangs will go wild. Skinheads, Bloods, Crypts, MS13, some motorcycle gangs are the real threats that I forsee.

After serving in the military, across a wide array of branches, I think the soldiers will be focused on protecting their families on bases. This would ensure that their primary assets (heavy weapons) would be secure. Order would come to the military long before the surrounding areas. Communications with the military would be a very good thing since their missions for the first few years would be to take out these gangs, that would become mini-armies in the turmoil. Being able to call upon these forces or other facilities, each with a few hundred preppers in them would be a hell of a good thing if attacked by a major force. I do not think a group of people who mostly shoot pistols sideways would be a match for one of these facilities, regardless of numbers. I do not think they would have the logistics capabilities required for a long siege and if they do our help from the military or other facilities should be able to help fix that situation.

I think preppers as a whole are a better group than the general public, though you would have a lot higher percentage of paranoid people, they would almost all be leary of government, each of their votes would keep this monster called the ruling class or government with oppressive power from growing in a community. I am almost positive that the share the wealth and give me handouts groups would be living in mexico, and would be in for a hell of a shock, if they survive that shock they would think a lot more like preppers.

I also think that the military as a whole are a better group than the general public, they all took the oath to lay down their lives to protect the people from all enemies foreign and domestic. Construction of these facilities to me is an extension of this oath, I will make it happen.

Each of these facilities will produce tons of fresh organic fish and produce to every community they are built in.

Every one of these facilities would return power to the electric grids of any community they were located in.

Every one of these facilities would reduce the stress on the pitiful emergency preparations of any community they are located in.

Every one of these facilities would hire primarily returning veterans that need the work and are the people I want around me if something happens.

I think these facilities have the potential to change the stigma associated with prepping, from one on the fringe to one of common sense.

I think much like the Zombie Squad out of washington state we could help the broken government. We could be a crutch even if they do not seem to think they need it, work with city emergency managers, give organized training for surrounding communities on basic first aid, firearm safety, water sanitation, food storage ect. The simple fact is the more people prepare, the easier it will be on us all, and the faster we will be able to recover from whatever happens.

Yes each one of these facilities have the potential to make massive amounts of profits. And this is why I think they could rapidly become common place in most of your communities. Capitalism built this country, and made it the most powerful force on the face of the planet, it needs to be used to help save it, I think it is the only force strong enough to do it.

I think if something truly bad happened, these facilities would be the center of the future cities, the trade centers, the order in the chaos, the guiding light that restores the constitution.

No I do not think I am a god, I do not think I have all the answers, I do not think my plan is perfect, I do not think other options could not work.

I do think that for $100 a month I can make the option of hard core prepping available to millions more people.

I have studied my business model, I have spent weeks trying to find the weaknesses financially, the only one I have been able to find is if it does not ever get started.

Yes, after I did the math, and got the patent, I was excited as hell, perhaps I jumped the gun linking my Indiegogo campaign so early. I did not expect to get the 1.25 mil target amount, what I really needed was 300 people to donate $10 each. So when I put my life savings, family home, and kids college on the line in front of a banker or investor I could project full occupancy of the facility on day one, and show him a list of donations made by people willing to pay to be on the rental waiting list as proof of this fact.

I might be crazy, I might be wrong, I might be a complete idiot risking the financial security of his family on a pipe dream. But I am the man who is going to do every damn thing he can think of to make this happen.

If you think I am wrong, or crazy, or just a dumbass out to make a quick buck, I understand, and I wish you all the best.

If you think these facilities would be a good thing, If having one near your community, even if just for pre shtf benefits, or just for a safe place to stash the family while you protect the homefront in case of riots, and have $10 you could spare to help make it happen, please go to https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/castle-storage-farms/x/7157805?show_todos=true and put in the $10, being able to tell a banker, or investor, I would open at max occupancy would make the value of that donation multiply into something 100 times greater than the combo meal it could buy.


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## pheniox17

nice sales pitch john, I see your logic and I can see you getting it off the ground... but you need to target the arm chair prepper... there are a lot on Facebook....

start a group and troll Facebook pages like doomsday preppers, castle preppers, American preppers network (that one has a forum to full of arm chair warriors) and try there, you will gain better responses than here and will find a lot more people in your target market, but be warned these types are very unstable


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## John Oscar

pheniox17 said:


> nice sales pitch john, I see your logic and I can see you getting it off the ground... but you need to target the arm chair prepper... there are a lot on Facebook....
> 
> start a group and troll Facebook pages like doomsday preppers, castle preppers, American preppers network (that one has a forum to full of arm chair warriors) and try there, you will gain better responses than here and will find a lot more people in your target market, but be warned these types are very unstable


Actually American preppers are going to give me $500 worth of advertising in exchange for the $500 option on the Indiegogo site. This is the only site I have actually did any replies on because the people here, when i was looking through those available, seemed to have the best grasp on what would actually happen. Would be the hardest group to convince, would find the flaws, and would be the most likely to be able to point them out.


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## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> Actually American preppers are going to give me $500 worth of advertising in exchange for the $500 option on the Indiegogo site. This is the only site I have actually did any replies on because the people here, when i was looking through those available, seemed to have the best grasp on what would actually happen. Would be the hardest group to convince, would find the flaws, and would be the most likely to be able to point them out.


so you posted that to prove me right?? thanks


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## John Oscar

pheniox17 said:


> so you posted that to prove me right?? thanks


Nah just saying I thought of most of your points and came to a different conclusion, then explained it.

Was American Prepper Network that made the offer (not saying anything negative about the site if your watching) I do not know a lot about the site other than they have 117k likes for what that is worth.


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## John Oscar

After thinking about it, and considering I will be paying for the advertising if this works, I am going to go over there and start a thread now, I will of course still monitor this site and answer any question anyone may have to the best of my abilities.

Will probably slack a little on visits because I have a ton of work to do to get this thing off the ground so if I do not respond immediately, I am not ignoring you, or glossing over your post, just busy as hell.


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## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> Nah just saying I thought of most of your points and came to a different conclusion, then explained it.
> 
> Was American Prepper Network that made the offer (not saying anything negative about the site if your watching) I do not know a lot about the site other than they have 117k likes for what that is worth.


each to their own, but you will fit in well


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## John Oscar

pheniox17 said:


> each to their own, but you will fit in well


As for me fitting in I think I have the most viewed/posted to 5 day old thread in the history of this site. If not, then close to it.

To me that means people at least think the idea is interesting (unless they were all just coming to watch the flame wars)

Hmm... if there was a bet on how long it would take me to crack, I should get a cut..... just sayin....

I met a person I respect, and even admire, and he said this was his favorite thread ever on this site (yea that made me feel good)

I have heard a hell of a lot of good ideas and received some amazing feedback, including some from a potential investor that gave me priceless information on how to proceed for financing. (that was a private message though)

Anyway, thanks for the help, if anyone else can think of another way to attack the facility, or ideas in general, please let me know.


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## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> As for me fitting in I think I have the most viewed/posted to 5 day old thread in the history of this site. If not, then close to it.


no need to be defensive it was only a opinion on APN... some people fit in there some dont


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## Lucky Jim

John Oscar said:


> ..if anyone else can think of another way to attack the facility, or ideas in general, please let me know...


I only came in late on this thread and wish I had time to digest its 38 pages, but glancing through it the consensus seems to be that ANY facility can be wiped out easily enough in a variety of ways, and I'd go along with that.
The moral therefore seems to be that pouring lots of time, cash and effort into creating a super-duper fortress will only delay its overthrow, because sooner or later somebody will find (or make) a simple mortar and start lobbing shells into it, or bring up a tank or howitzer from an abandoned army base to make mincemeat of it.
Or have I missed something?


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## 2Tim215

As remote as possible, as prepped as possible and only close family or alone would be the only way to survive until order is restored. Even the best of people will resort to the basest of things to survive


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## John Oscar

Lucky Jim said:


> I only came in late on this thread and wish I had time to digest its 38 pages, but glancing through it the consensus seems to be that ANY facility can be wiped out easily enough in a variety of ways, and I'd go along with that.
> The moral therefore seems to be that pouring lots of time, cash and effort into creating a super-duper fortress will only delay its overthrow, because sooner or later somebody will find (or make) a simple mortar and start lobbing shells into it, or bring up a tank or howitzer from an abandoned army base to make mincemeat of it.
> Or have I missed something?


I agree that any facility could be wiped out, as well as any group, I think the key would be to make the attempt not worth it. If through technology you could determine the leader of the opposing force, one well fired bullet from a skilled marksman might change the mind of the next leader, might not. Being in communications with the military and whatever is left of fema as well as monitoring military bases in the region might be able to allow you to acquire larger military assets before the opposition, might not. perhaps an opposing force could make it past the LP/OP's and not be detected, perhaps not.

The military makes up less than 1% of the US population, From the posts I have received I would guess the odds of any random prepper being former military is at least 20 times higher, thus from my 250 prepper families I would estimate at least 25 being former military, the facility staff will be former military. I would put my group of at least 250 preppers, at least estimating 30 being former military, and about 300 supporting personnel, in this defensive position, and say my odds of survival are better than most, especially considering anyone planning on planting a garden that would be almost as visible as my wall.

If you can afford a better plan, or one you personally think is better, this facility is not for you.

Trying to please all the people, all the time, is an exercise in futility.


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## John Oscar

2Tim215 said:


> As remote as possible, as prepped as possible and only close family or alone would be the only way to survive until order is restored. Even the best of people will resort to the basest of things to survive


The problem is in a grid down scenario, estimates are at least 50% of the population will starve to death, some of these estimates as high as 80%. Have you ever seen anyone actually starving to death ? I have, it is a pitiful site, they do not die fast, in perfect conditions it could take about a week or 2. But circumstances will not be perfect, people will eat bugs, dogs, cats, and if comes to it other people to survive. It will take tens of millions months and months to starve to death, all of this time they will be trampling through the woods hoping to shoot anything moving. They would flee any populated areas as fast as the gangs start to take control, they will not just park their car in the traffic jam and die, they will push stalled vehicles off the road. The will to survive is an amazing thing.

In the 2 months I spent in africa the largest wild animal I saw was a 7" long house lizard, and I traveled all over the place, why ? Because people were hungry and had guns. People will be cold and burn trees, and forests in their stupidity.

There are major flaws in about all of the traditional options, all you can do is pick the one your comfortable with and go for it.

I would say being able to feed the people around you would be key though. I would not want my brother to be in a situation where he has to choose what kid starves, mine or his.


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## Renec

Ion cannon,of course!!


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## Guest

i would devour a bottle of franks red hot sauce bend over in front of your gate light a match and fart in your general direction.


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## John Oscar

Renec said:


> Ion cannon,of course!!


I want an Ion cannon =/


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## John Oscar

nightshade said:


> i would devour a bottle of franks red hot sauce bend over in front of your gate light a match and fart in your general direction.


Might want to get that checked out.....


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## pheniox17

john did your APN post get deleted??


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## John Oscar

pheniox17 said:


> john did your APN post get deleted??


Yea it got deleted by one of the mods, then i sent them the E-Mail offering me the $500 in advertising and they put it back up in BOL section. They are writing up a story about it this weekend for the newsletter.

I am about to make one of those huge ass posts about it explaining the profit potential since that is what is going to spread them across the US fast if I can get it started. The profit margins really are staggering, is why I added the part where franchisees would have to invest 10% of profits back into approved facility upgrades.

That site is overly complicated, way to many forums for me, and has some mods with trigger fingers but apparently it is working for them. I got a lot of PM's from people interested..... hopefully it works for me.... going to add a lot more information on the indiegogo site as well.

It was put inside of a forum that was a subforum that went to another forum of a forum..... or somthing like that....

Here is a link

http://www.americanpreppersnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?f=721&t=47415


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## pheniox17

John Oscar said:


> That site is overly complicated, way to many forums for me, and has some mods with trigger fingers but apparently it is working for them. I got a lot of PM's from people interested..... hopefully it works for me.... going to add a lot more information on the indiegogo site as well.


should have warned you about that, but there was a huge political issue in house that caused massive dramas, they are your market and the only reason you wont get sales there is if you get extremely defensive, its the first prepper site that comes up in Google

good luck, a thanks and some photos of the finished product would be nice


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