# Pump free pluming system



## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Alternative energy? Air pressure?

I have been thinking of how I'm going to set up a self contained water system here at my BOL for a while.
I was thinking of using two sur-flo 12 volt pumps that are for a camper. I thought that I could even just tie
into the system I have now and use the existing water tank as well and if I keep the air pressure in the tank the pumps
wouldn't kick on so much.

But then when I was medicated and really high I had a thought. 
I'm going to be using two 300 gallon tanks for my water storage. But instead off using a 12 volt pump how about this,,,,,,,,,


I have an old 70 gallon air compressor tank. What if I used air pressure to move the water upstairs? I know the air tank is
good for at least 150 PSI. OK,,We got to full 300 gallon tanks of water and going into the top of one of the tanks is an air line
that has 35 to 40 PSI of regulated air pressure.-- no water pump--


Or I could even take the cap out of the top of 
one of the tanks and put a valve stem like on a car wheel on the top and just have the tanks 3/4 full that would leave
400 gallons of water and ever how many cubic feet that 200 gallons of water would take up for air pressure. I could put like
50 PSI of air in the tanks with the water. 

And / Or I could have a small 12 volt air compressor hooked to the tanks with a regulator switch to turn it on at a lower
pressure and off when the pressure is up where you want it. 

This theory would work great for a small system like 20 to 100 gallons or something. Hand or foot pump for compressor? 
There are a lot of possibility's for using air pressure to move water. 

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,THOUGHTS?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
anyone want to do some math and see how much water we could move eater way? 
the water will go no higher in the system than 15' from the bottom of the tank.

I got so far out of the box I can't find my way back in

a 40 gallon hot water tank would be great for this it's made to hold pressure.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Putting the tanks higher is a good idea. 400 gallons of water weighs close to 1.4 tons. You will need to reinforce the rafters with some mighty big beams to get it to stay "up". The other issue is pressurizing the tanks. How much pressure can the tanks take? I am assuming that the tanks are plastic of some kind. what happen if they burst from too much pressure? Where does all that water go?

Thinking outside the box is really good - thinking it through to solve the tough questions is much better.

It might be better to think about burying the tanks at least 70 vertical feet above your home into a hillside. Then fill them with the well pump and let it flow to the house under gravity. You could put a float switch in the tanks and the well pump would only come on when the tanks were getting low. If your well was up high enough on the hill that the water level was at least 70 feet above your house you wouldn't need a pump - you could use a gravity siphon to get the water from the well into your home.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

PaulS said:


> Putting the tanks higher is a good idea. 400 gallons of water weighs close to 1.4 tons. You will need to reinforce the rafters with some mighty big beams to get it to stay "up". The other issue is pressurizing the tanks. How much pressure can the tanks take? I am assuming that the tanks are plastic of some kind. what happen if they burst from too much pressure? Where does all that water go?
> 
> Thinking outside the box is really good - thinking it through to solve the tough questions is much better.
> 
> It might be better to think about burying the tanks at least 70 vertical feet above your home into a hillside. Then fill them with the well pump and let it flow to the house under gravity. You could put a float switch in the tanks and the well pump would only come on when the tanks were getting low. If your well was up high enough on the hill that the water level was at least 70 feet above your house you wouldn't need a pump - you could use a gravity siphon to get the water from the well into your home.


 No the tanks will stay in the basement, On concrete
These tanks are from a city water system the pressure they were built for was well above 30-40 lbs
The tanks are made of fiberglass. 
I don't want any of my water system outside it gets to far below zero here.

The idea of having air pressure in the tanks is to have water pressure throughout the house. 
The air pressure in the Tanks would take the place of any need for a pump.

The air pressure would push the water out of the tanks and into the pipes and I would have water pressure.
Same idea as a house with a well and tank-- sort of


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I am at a loss - how are you going to get water into the tanks? Are you connected to city water or from a well?


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm going to open the top and pour the water in. Put the cap back on and pressurize it.
when a tank gets low on water I would switch to the other tank and refill the empty one

The tanks are self contained not hooked to anything


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

OK, so you don't have city water... 200 gallons is a lot of pouring. :/


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

PaulS said:


> OK, so you don't have city water... 200 gallons is a lot of pouring. :/


 pouring was an expression ,,,,,and it's 400 gallons (two tanks)
I'm thinking post SHTF almost everyone will be pouring. -- no grid no city water


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Could you rig a 3/4" hose and a hand water pump to get the water from the basement storage vessels to the roof cistern. I think if you are going to use a hand pump to generate air pressure then why not put that effort directly into moving the water with a hand water pump. You lost me on the need to use air pressure.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Seneca said:


> Could you rig a 3/4" hose and a hand water pump to get the water from the basement storage vessels to the roof cistern. I think if you are going to use a hand pump to generate air pressure then why not put that effort directly into moving the water with a hand water pump. You lost me on the need to use air
> pressure.


The need for air pressure would take the place of a pump. You would have running water throughout the house from the tanks
from the air pressure pushing the water out of the tanks into the pipes . Take a shower wash dishes or whatever.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I don't believe 50lbs of air pressure is going to be enough to pressurize water for your entire house.
Water is dense, air is not. I've not done any experimenting, but I would think it would take considerably more air pressure to get water to move up your pipes into your home.
My expectation would be that the water would eventually become such a burden on the air, based on how high it goes above the tanks, that it would just begin to compress the air in the tank instead of moving up the pipe.
What is the highest point above the top of your tank that the water will need to reach?
We should be able to do a little math and figure this little problem out.

Since you seem to like projects, have you looked into possible ways to utilize a ram pump for your water?
It requires no electricity, just a water source that is at least a foot and a half above the pump itself.
Check out this link: Build a Hydraulic Ram Pump - DIY - MOTHER EARTH NEWS


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> I don't believe 50lbs of air pressure is going to be enough to pressurize water for your entire house.
> Water is dense, air is not. I've not done any experimenting, but I would think it would take considerably more air pressure to get water to move up your pipes into your home.
> My expectation would be that the water would eventually become such a burden on the air, based on how high it goes above the tanks, that it would just begin to compress the air in the tank instead of moving up the pipe.
> What is the highest point above the top of your tank that the water will need to reach?
> ...


When you have a well with a tank as I do now I think the pressure in the tank is about 35 pounds. 
The tank is pressurized so the pump don't run all the time when you want water.
Anyone know what is the standard pressure when you have well water? If you have a well when you turn on the water 
the water is pushed out by air pressure not water pressure. That's why you have a tank. It's a place to pressurize the water with air.

What I'm saying is I could have my water tanks in my basement and pressurize them and I would have running water everywhere
in the house. I don't think it would take more than 30 maybe 45 lbs at the most. This is the way tanks in homes that have well water
work because you can't compress water.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Rightly so, you can't compress water.
But, the PSI of water coming out of the valve at the bottom would not necessarily equate to the PSI of air sitting at the top of the tank, would it?


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Rightly so, you can't compress water.
> But, the PSI of water coming out of the valve at the bottom would not necessarily equate to the PSI of air sitting at the top of the tank, would it?


 Well, the pressure in the tank would be the same ,, But the higher the pipes go the weaker the pressure in the pipe would be. 
Do you have well water or city water?

I'll see if I can check and see how much pressure is in my tank down stairs is.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I'm on city water.
I've not had experience with a well, but I have some understanding of the pressure and weight you will be dealing with.
To push a water column of length 'x' up a pipe of diameter 'y' will take 'p' pounds of pressure.
Fill in x and y and we can start to look for p.
Then we can determine whether or not your tank's outlet pressure is high enough to accomplish your goal, and how much pressure you will need to add to the system to achieve this.
Then we get into the discussion about how much air it will take to get to that pressure.
That air isn't magically created, so you will then need to account for how you will fill a tank with air at sufficient pressure to prime the system for use.
You need to understand that most tanks that utilize air pressure to push water do so without ever bleeding the air out.
If you intend to uncap the tank on the top to add water, you will need to re-pressurize each time.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

budgetprepp-n said:


> The need for air pressure would take the place of a pump. You would have running water throughout the house from the tanks
> from the air pressure pushing the water out of the tanks into the pipes . Take a shower wash dishes or whatever.


How do you plan on generating the air pressure? 
Agree! Some wells will have a pressure tank with a one way (check) valve, they generate water pressure by pumping water into the tank from the well which in turn compresses the air in the tank. The system requires power to operate efficiently and electrical relays between the pump and tank to maintain an even water pressure.
So where do you get the air?


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> I'm on city water.
> I've not had experience with a well, but I have some understanding of the pressure and weight you will be dealing with.
> To push a water column of length 'x' up a pipe of diameter 'y' will take 'p' pounds of pressure.
> Fill in x and y and we can start to look for p.
> ...


 Yes I understand that I will need to re-pressurize each time-- That should not be a problem--(I'm working on that got an idea) 
Ok I went downstairs and checked and I have 33 lbs of pressure in the tank and I have good water pressure in all of the up stairs.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Seneca said:


> Could you rig a 3/4" hose and a hand water pump to get the water from the basement storage vessels to the roof cistern. I think if you are going to use a hand pump to generate air pressure then why not put that effort directly into moving the water with a hand water pump. You lost me on the need to use air pressure.


 If you have air pressure in the tank it is like a reserve you can run water for a while off of the pressure like to shower or something.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Seneca said:


> How do you plan on generating the air pressure?
> Agree! Some wells will have a pressure tank with a one way (check) valve, they generate water pressure by pumping water into the tank from the well which in turn compresses the air in the tank. The system requires power to operate efficiently and electrical relays between the pump and tank to maintain an even water pressure.
> So where do you get the air?


 Ok this is where we start thinking POST SHTF Hand pump, foot pump, small 12 volt air compressor
How about a compressor hooked to a bicycle ? 
If I have a 50 gallon tank that has 100 lb of pressure in it and 
I use a regulator to keep the pressure going to the water tanks at 35 psi I bet I could run a long time with good water
pressure , 35 psi at the tanks should be plenty 
OK,,two 300 water gallon tanks and a 50 gallon air tank with 100 psi in it. How many gallons will I be able to move before the pressure drops below 35 psi?

note if necessary I could come up with an air tank bigger than 50 gallons.
The guy had another 300 tank I could pick up to use for an air tank if needed.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I'm still not convinced that adding 35psi of air to a water tank will result in 35psi of water at the faucet 10ft above the tank.
Perhaps I'm just confused on the physics.

On a side note, have you pressure tested these tanks with air?
There seems to be a general consensus online that a water system should not be tested with air due to the fact that air molecules are smaller than water molecules, and could show leaks where water wouldn't actually leak.
If your tanks aren't designed for air pressure, they might fail to maintain pressure even when no water is flowing.
Just something to keep in mind.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

after lifting a column of water 10 feet with 35 psi you will have 29.8 psi.

It takes about .52 psi to lift water 1 foot - on the other hand for each foot of head you get .52 psi.

The above does not take into account the resistance of the pipe which depends on the diameter of the pipe.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

I think 35 is a bit low, doable in a survival situation, yet most pressurized well/city systems seem to run in the 45-50 lbs. pressure range.
I don't know how much time you have or want to spend pumping air manually by using either a bicycle, or hand/foot pump etc. 
I'd have to weigh the calories burned and time spent by the benefit gained. 
It's a numbers situation, before burning calories for creature comforts, one need to have a sustainable (renewable) source of calories.
I think a solar setup with a 12v sureflow camper/RV pump, might be the easiest route to go. 
There are a number of ways to rig a gravity water flow systems that are doable with a few pails a bit of tubing and a hand drill water pump.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> I'm still not convinced that adding 35psi of air to a water tank will result in 35psi of water at the faucet 10ft above the tank.
> Perhaps I'm just confused on the physics.
> 
> On a side note, have you pressure tested these tanks with air?
> ...


If I have 35 pounds in the tank I'm sure it will be less 10 feet above the tank but not that much. My tank down stairs has about 33 lbs
and my pressure if fine for taking showers or washing dishes. I'll see if it has a gauge that shows what pressure it comes on and goes off.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

At ten feet above the water level in the tanks you will lose over 5 psi in the lift. 
If we consider that the distance between floors is ten feet and your water level is at 2 feet above the floor (close to time to refill the tank) and your shower head is at 6 feet above the floor up stairs the the water will be lifted 14 feet to the shower head from the level of the water. You will lose over 7 psi at the shower head. If you start with 35 you will only have less than 28 psi for your shower. and about 29 at your sink faucets.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Please Be Increasingly Carefull. You Apparently Reclaimed These Tanks And May Not Understand The Pressure Rating. If A Two Hundred Gallon Tank Burst With Fifty Pounds Of Actual Air Pressure In And Full Air Column You Will Flatten Your House And Kill Every One Inside.


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## StarPD45 (Nov 13, 2012)

Don't forget that your pipes in the house are rated for only so much pressure. If you go much over that you end up with at least a leak, if not a burst pipe. Just something else to think about.

There sure has been a lot of activity on here in the two weeks I was away. 
Please keep it up.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Just so you are aware that is not how those of us on a well system get pressure for our water. There is a special tank that is used to keep the system pressurized when the well pump is off. It contains in essence a bag of air that forces the water from the system until the pressure drops to a certain level then it throws a switch for the well pump to come on till the pressure becomes stabilized again. I don't think what you are suggesting will work


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## tbone1964 (Oct 6, 2013)

Gravity would be your best ally. Like all municiple water systems with water towers. Water finds its own level. Mounting the tanks higher than the top floor would create the needed results a small dc pump hooked to solar would move the water from the ground source to the elevated tanks.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

SARGE7402 said:


> Just so you are aware that is not how those of us on a well system get pressure for our water. There is a special tank that is used to keep the system pressurized when the well pump is off. It contains in essence a bag of air that forces the water from the system until the pressure drops to a certain level then it throws a switch for the well pump to come on till the pressure becomes stabilized again. I don't think what you are suggesting will work


I am familiar with that type of system. What it sounds like he wants to do is basically the same thing without using the well pump. I agree I don't think it will work either.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Seneca said:


> I am familiar with that type of system. What it sounds like he wants to do is basically the same thing without using the well pump. I agree I don't think it will work either.


 The tank I have for my well has about 35 pounds of pressure and I seem to have good water pressure. Why wouldn't it work?
I would think 35 lbs would be 35 lbs no matter where it comes from.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

It takes a high pressure well pump to supply the pressure to the tank. The pump, pumping water into the tank is what compresses the air in the tank. There is cycling between pump and tank through a check valve to maintain a range of pressure in the tank. In most systems the tank is not all that large, with out a ready supply of water constantly being supplied to the tank, you'd be luck to fill a kitchen sink before the pressure dropped noticeably.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

You know as I set here thinking about it I think I know how I'm going to do this,,,,,,I'm going to have the water come out of the tanks and
into two sureflo camper pumps plumed in series rather than parallel and fed into the pressure tank that is hooked to the well pump.
I can shut off the pump that's in the well and use these 12 volt pumps to create the pressure in the tank I need to feed the house. 
And I also am going to be needing a hot water tank soon so I might just get an instant heater (propane) that will get my water system 
off the grid. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,So I may be using pumps after all 

The Shurflo pumps are rated at 2.8 gallons per minute and they kick off at 45 psi. If I plum them in parallel the 45 psi pressure
will stay the same but the GPM should go up to about 4.2 and even with with what I will loose going up hill to the upstairs
that should be more than enough. (the pumps are adjustable I can turn the pressure down if I need to) 

Thinking as a prepper
I know even with the 100 gallon tanks of propane I have it won't last for ever. But when I get the solar set up and the water system done
I was thinking of building a rocket stove for heat that will run on used oil or any fluid that will burn or even wood And run some copper 3/4 
pipes around it as a back up water heater. I should have the solar set up all done within 2 weeks or less and I will get started on the water system.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

For your water heater idea, check out what this guy did:


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## StarPD45 (Nov 13, 2012)

As to the water heater, I recall reading about a couple who converted their gas water heater to burn wood. It used the same flue as original.
It wouldn't burn long, since the area for the wood was small, but it worked.
I think it was in an issue of _Mother Earth News_ a long time ago.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

budgetprepp-n said:


> Alternative energy? Air pressure?
> 
> I have been thinking of how I'm going to set up a self contained water system here at my BOL for a while.
> I was thinking of using two sur-flo 12 volt pumps that are for a camper. I thought that I could even just tie
> ...


My suggestion is to not post anything when you are high as it trumps both common sense and logic


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Montana Rancher said:


> My suggestion is to not post anything when you are high as it trumps both common sense and logic


Ahhhh, Montana Rancher, we have missed you. Strait to the jugular MR.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Montana Rancher said:


> My suggestion is to not post anything when you are high as it trumps both common sense and logic


 OUCH and what did I say that was short on common sense?


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know either, I just know MR, he will probably tell you thou, our Montana Rancher is one that's speaks his mind.


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