# small solar set up for a prepper on a budget



## budgetprepp-n

OK so there some preppers that would like to have a small solar set up for just running a few LED
lights and maybe a few 110 volt appliances. 

It sounds simple but if you never messed with a solar set up it can be a scary thought.
Not knowing what to buy or how to hook it up.

I bet there are more than just a few preppers that would like to have a small set up packed 
away with the rest of there preps.

Why do you think harbor freight does so well selling an over priced 45 watt set that's made of
really cheap junk?
Because they make the set up user friendly easy even for a beginner. 

I'm thinking it might be experimentation time. I'm thinking about using one 100 watt solar panel 
a low cost controller and one battery. Even with just one battery you can have lights at night (leds)
run a radio and some small stuff. 

And explane what each part does and how to hook it up.
I have enough parts laying around to build a set up.

I can show what each part cost and where to get it. 

Just keep in mind this is for now to buy and put back or use. Once TSHTF all bets are off
a solar panel or controller will be worth it's weight in gold.

Would this be useful post for anyone? I got some stuff going I need to finish first and I can
start in a few days. So should I make this post?


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## Medic33

yep it sounds like a good idea.


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## spork

I'd be interested.


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## PaulS

If all you want to do is run some lights it will be pretty easy but when you start talking about appliances - even small appliances it becomes problematic. A toaster for instance uses between 1200 and 1800 watts.
I'm in for the experiment and I will help all I can. I just want you to know going in that it gets hard after lights.


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## budgetprepp-n

PaulS said:


> If all you want to do is run some lights it will be pretty easy but when you start talking about appliances - even small appliances it becomes problematic. A toaster for instance uses between 1200 and 1800 watts.
> I'm in for the experiment and I will help all I can. I just want you to know going in that it gets hard after lights.


Small appliances-- Radio, Cell phone charger, Maybe a battery charger for rechargeable AA batteries.
using a small inverter


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## PCH5150

I'd be interested, thanks!


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## 8301

Heck, I can make up a parts list for a small solar setup in 2 minutes. I'm not going to spend a lot of time shopping for pricing but here is a good setup for 100 watt panel.
http://www.amazon.com/ECO-WORTHY-Mo...F8&qid=1439836604&sr=8-6&keywords=solar+panel $139 with free shipping
Point it South and tilt it at about 30 degrees slant although you can just lay it flat on the ground and it will work but not as efficiently.

hook the two wires to a charge controller that will help keep your battery maintained and healthy and avoid overcharging the battery.
Amazon.com : Docooler 20A 12V/24V Solar Charge Controller Solar Panel Battery Regulator Safe Protection : Patio, Lawn & Garden
This $13 charge controller can handle two, possibly three, of the 100 watt panels listed above. This is a PWM type charge controller. MPPT type charge controllers are up to 30% more efficient but cost a lot more.

Now get some 10 gauge wire from the auto parts store and wire the charge controller to a battery that you also buy at the Auto Parts store. I'd recommend a 60-120 amp hr battery, preferably deep cycle like you use on a trolling motor.

12v basic solar electricity with battery backup for power when the sun goes down.

There are much fancier and more efficient setups out there but for fast and reliably cheap (less than $1.60 a watt) plus battery you're good to go.


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## 8301

About $1.60 a watt is as cheap as you can realistically go. Battery costs aren't generally figured into the solar system cost when pricing a solar system. Most home systems cost about $3 to $8 a watt depending on the mounting system, inverter type, charge controller type, and how much of the work you do yourself.

Realistically a 7 watt solar panel can charge your phone or IPOD, at least a 30 watt system to recharge AA batteries or your laptop. A 400 watt system with 2 good sized (100 amp hr. batteries and a 1500 watt inverter to run your small microwave or small hot plate along with a few lights. The larger batteries are needed to minimize strain on the batteries if you're pulling 1200 watts. One battery can do the job but it will burn out the battery pretty fast.

Got a 2500 watt inverter? Once again one large battery can do it for a few minutes but if you're pulling 2000 watts you really want 3 or 4 100 amp batteries to reduce the strain on the battery, not just to avoid draining the battery but pulling that much current out of one battery will quickly damage the battery.


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## budgetprepp-n

FoolAmI said:


> About $1.60 a watt is as cheap as you can realistically go. Battery costs aren't generally figured into the solar system cost when pricing a solar system. Most home systems cost about $3 to $8 a watt depending on the mounting system, inverter type, charge controller type, and how much of the work you do yourself.
> 
> Realistically a 7 watt solar panel can charge your phone or IPOD, at least a 30 watt system to recharge AA batteries or your laptop. A 400 watt system with 2 good sized (100 amp hr. batteries and a 1500 watt inverter to run your small microwave or small hot plate along with a few lights. The larger batteries are needed to minimize strain on the batteries if you're pulling 1200 watts. One battery can do the job but it will burn out the battery pretty fast.
> 
> Got a 2500 watt inverter? Once again one large battery can do it for a few minutes but if you're pulling 2000 watts you really want 3 or 4 100 amp batteries to reduce the strain on the battery, not just to avoid draining the battery but pulling that much current out of one battery will quickly damage the battery.


Heck, I can make up a parts list for a small solar setup in 2 minutes-- so can I

That's all good. But I think that some preppers want to see it done. With an explanation and pictures.

I can look up prices but that's not like doing it. nothing takes the place of "hands on"


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## Will2

Most of the cost is in the batteries you use to store electricity.

You can get an inverter for about 100$ and a 100 watt panel for 100 or 200, the rest of the price is batteries.

You don't "really" need a charge controller, you can get a diode instead (which costs a bit less than the charge controller.

So you can probably get a 100 watt system up for about $500 with may 100AH give or take. I wouldn't expect less than $250


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## PaulS

Will2,
If you charge batteries without a charge controller they are prone to over and under charging. Either way they die quickly.
You only need an inverter if you want 120VAC and you don't need that with a 100 watt panel. 
If you buy an inverter to use with electronics you need a pure sine wave inverter and they are considerably more than $100.
All a diode will do for you is drop the output voltage .3 to .5 VDC and that could keep you from being able to charge your battery.


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## 8301

budgetprepp-n said:


> Heck, I can make up a parts list for a small solar setup in 2 minutes-- so can I
> 
> That's all good. But I think that some preppers want to see it done. With an explanation and pictures.
> 
> I can look up prices but that's not like doing it. nothing takes the place of "hands on"


A slightly larger solar setup (490 watts). I didn't bother to take pictures when I built it "hands on". 
The batteries (three 125 amp/hr Trojan 12v) and electronics box (2nd picture) are under the panels. Total cost with the three original 106 amp Auto Zone batteries was $1350 the Auto Zone batteries lasted about 3 1/2 years under heavy strain from a small AC unit during the summers and my TV and satellite receiver during the winters using only two 100 watt panels which could barely keep up. I added the 2 additional panels later but are considered part of the original $1350 cost since I got them several years ago and never mounted them.. I purchased the larger Trojan batteries this Spring.

The original 200 watts worth of panels could barely recharge the almost drained 106 amp batteries (500 watt ac running for 2-3 hrs per day) on a good day. The three old batteries could run the 500 watt ac about 3 hrs on their own so the panels charged up the batteries while I was at work and then the batteries cooled down the bedroom after I got home. Still, 200 watts is plenty for some led or florescent lighting and recharging anything you may desire.

A thought, While I don't think EMP will be what gets us I've still scrounged a 100 watt panel with a cheap charge controller and 400 watt inverter (all yard sale purchases but tested good) and tossed them in a faraday bag "just in case". Batteries will survive an EMP and I've already got those. Even 100 watts would make a huge difference if the power went out.


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## cozy123

my bus has a 100W panel, charge controller, twp deep cycle batteries, and a 2000W inverter. I have run a florescent light, fan, and drill battery chargers continualy for a few hours without any issues. I also have my stereo connected to the batteries, still no issues. I have this system seperate from the bus battery.


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## mattro_indy

This thread interests me. I am new to solar (sighs from crowd). I am wanting to build a small system on a VERY tight budget, trying to buy decent stuff that will have many years good use and a system I can grow. Intended use is to charge AA batteries, charge handheld electronics (phones and such); run future small HAM radio, and run a string of LED lights; all in the unlikely event of "lights out" SHTF. I understand the basics of calculating demand and recharge. I am planning on a 100w panel and hopefully an entry level MPPT controller.

My big question is the batteries. I would like to keep the initial battery cost at $100 but dont want to throw money away. *I am not understanding the difference in usability and life span between Walmart 29DC and a true deep cycle.* The usable AH is almost impossible to compare and I think the hybrid Walmart battery's tolerable discharge level is no where as deep as a true deep cycle. I cant really afford two Sams Club GC2 batteries at $85 bucks each but will if it makes a world of difference, but it appears (without better knowledge) that the Sams 29DC has a similar capacity to two GC2 batteries??? Quality 20AH 12volt deep cycle batteries run about $45 each, but how would two of those compare to the Sams 29DC? If the 29DC serves its purpose for 3-4 years then junks out with light usage, that is not completely unacceptable.

Harbor freight has these 12 Volt, 35 Amp Hour AGM for $73. That would give me true deep cycle without having to buy two right away to get to 12v.

Finding 12v appliances for a prolonged lights out would be nice but I understand I would quickly outgrow this small setup. Being able to smartly add panels and increase the capacity of battery bank would be nice without throwing the initial batteries away.

Any help understanding the differences in the 29DC, 12v 20AH, and the Sams golf cart GC2 (or maybe I am missing a better option) would be greatly appreciated. Trying to go cheap but not stupid.


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## Ripon

If you learn of anyone in an urban setting going "solar" and find out they are hiring a contractor or anything other than a power purchase agreement or lease ask them to "tack on" a panel for you. Chances are those panels are coming in at a $1 to $1.25 a watt and are far more efficient then these 100 watt retail units that can sure be helpful but are not nearly as good. Remember home systems generally use 240-320 watt panels so you'll pay more but you'll get a lot more out of them. Buying "1" is very cost prohibitive but getting 1 in a bulk order is more than reasonable its a GREAT DEAL


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## dsdmmat

budgetprepp-n said:


> Would this be useful post for anyone? I got some stuff going I need to finish first and I can
> start in a few days. So should I make this post?


1) Yes!!!
2) I believe you should, I have been following some of your experiments and have found them very informative.


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## dsdmmat

Ripon said:


> If you learn of anyone in an urban setting going "solar" and find out they are hiring a contractor or anything other than a power purchase agreement or lease ask them to "tack on" a panel for you. Chances are those panels are coming in at a $1 to $1.25 a watt and are far more efficient then these 100 watt retail units that can sure be helpful but are not nearly as good. Remember home systems generally use 240-320 watt panels so you'll pay more but you'll get a lot more out of them. Buying "1" is very cost prohibitive but getting 1 in a bulk order is more than reasonable its a GREAT DEAL


The only thing I would caution people on is the fine print of some leases allow the company to put a lean against your home.


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## mattro_indy

Ripon said:


> If you learn of anyone in an urban setting going "solar" and find out they are hiring a contractor or anything other than a power purchase agreement or lease ask them to "tack on" a panel for you. Chances are those panels are coming in at a $1 to $1.25 a watt and are far more efficient then these 100 watt retail units that can sure be helpful but are not nearly as good. Remember home systems generally use 240-320 watt panels so you'll pay more but you'll get a lot more out of them. Buying "1" is very cost prohibitive but getting 1 in a bulk order is more than reasonable its a GREAT DEAL


Ripon, to make sure I follow, are you saying a Renogy 100w mono panel is not effecient or would be good for maintaining a small battery bank? Or just not as usefull as a 240-320 watt panel?

Nobody biting on my battery question? A quality 35ah SLA Deep cycle is around $70. A Walamrt hybrid battery 29DC is around $85. How do they compare for capacity, life, how low will they discharge happily? If I go down to a 35ah battery for this small solution, maybe a 50w panel will suffice even though it is only about $45 less then a 100w panel.

Obviously its harder to build a small system on a tight budget, then a large system...


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## 8301

Battery ratings can be confusing because different companies use different discharge rates. The slower you discharge a battery the more total energy per cycle you can get out of it. 
example: A battery rated at 50 amp hrs at a 20 hr discharge rate may only provide 30 amp/hrs if discharged at a faster 5 hr discharge rate or give you 65 amp/hrs of energy if discharged at the slower 100 hr discharge rate. Most reputable manufactures use a 20 hr discharge rate for their ratings although Trojan uses a 25 hr rate making their batteries look a tad more powerful than they actually are. I still like Trojan batteries but I think the lower priced Crown batteries are just as good.
In an effort to compare apples to apples pick a discharge rate for the batteries, I use the standard 20 hr discharge rate when comparing batteries.

I'm not going to make a specific battery suggestion but some thoughts.
A normal car battery ages excessively fast when cycled below 80% capacity (you use more than 20% of available power). Generally deep cycle batteries can handle deeper discharges before the aging process speeds up excessively. So go with a deep cycle battery. Golf cart batteries are deep cycle batteries that have slightly heavier construction to help bouncing around the golf course, nice if you plan to take your battery on a hike but not really required for a stationary solar battery. Still, golf cart batteries are easy to find which is a bonus.

A AutoZone 12v 106 amp hr (at the 20 hr discharge rate) holds up well and costs about $140 which is a much better deal than that harbor freight battery you mentioned.

MPPT charge controllers are expensive but make your batteries last longer and make more power from the panels. I've been using a tristar 45 amp mppt controller for about 4 years now and am very happy with it. http://www.amazon.com/MorningStar-TriStar-TS-MPPT-45-Charge-Controller/dp/B0072804YK (pictured on earlier post) The 45 amp controller can handle up to 500 watts at 12v or 2000 watts at 48v so room for expansion.

Here is a down and dirty panel with charge controller for emergency use. Amazon.com : Renogy 100 Watts 12 Volts Monocrystalline Foldable Solar Suitcase : Patio, Lawn & Garden

A friend has it and after testing and using it for a few weeks he put it into an EMP bag "just in case". You can do the same for about $100 less, still, worth looking at.


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## budgetprepp-n

mattro_indy said:


> This thread interests me. I am new to solar (sighs from crowd). I am wanting to build a small system on a VERY tight budget, trying to buy decent stuff that will have many years good use and a system I can grow. Intended use is to charge AA batteries, charge handheld electronics (phones and such); run future small HAM radio, and run a string of LED lights; all in the unlikely event of "lights out" SHTF. I understand the basics of calculating demand and recharge. I am planning on a 100w panel and hopefully an entry level MPPT controller.
> 
> My big question is the batteries. I would like to keep the initial battery cost at $100 but dont want to throw money away. *I am not understanding the difference in usability and life span between Walmart 29DC and a true deep cycle.* The usable AH is almost impossible to compare and I think the hybrid Walmart battery's tolerable discharge level is no where as deep as a true deep cycle. I cant really afford two Sams Club GC2 batteries at $85 bucks each but will if it makes a world of difference, but it appears (without better knowledge) that the Sams 29DC has a similar capacity to two GC2 batteries??? Quality 20AH 12volt deep cycle batteries run about $45 each, but how would two of those compare to the Sams 29DC? If the 29DC serves its purpose for 3-4 years then junks out with light usage, that is not completely unacceptable.
> 
> Harbor freight has these 12 Volt, 35 Amp Hour AGM for $73. That would give me true deep cycle without having to buy two right away to get to 12v.
> 
> Finding 12v appliances for a prolonged lights out would be nice but I understand I would quickly outgrow this small setup. Being able to smartly add panels and increase the capacity of battery bank would be nice without throwing the initial batteries away.
> 
> Any help understanding the differences in the 29DC, 12v 20AH, and the Sams golf cart GC2 (or maybe I am missing a better option) would be greatly appreciated. Trying to go cheap but not stupid.


I don't want this to sound like a recommendation to use Walmart batteries. The Walmart batteries are what a lot of beginners
use for there first set up. I did and I have never heard anyone really complain about the batteries. 
My Walmart batteries are 3 years old and still doing well. I think a lot of long they last is directly related to how
well they are cared for and how far you run them down.

Expectations? 
I think the things you have listed that you would like to do with a small system is very realistic.
Running some small electronics, charging smaller batteries And LED lights are well with in the range of a smaller set up.
100 watts might a little light. You may want to consider a bigger panel like 200 - 250 watts. Keep in mind that a 100 watt
panel on a sunny day would be having a 8 AMP battery charger at best. And only when the sun is out - strongly 
- But you could do it just need to keep an eye on things.

LED lights? 
Boy they have came a long way in last few years. You can get 60 watt 12 volt LED light bulbs that only pull 8 - 9 watts.
Just keep in mind you can have one in every room but if you only run one light at a time the current draw is really small.
I have LED lights in every room in my house. The electric goes out here on a regular basis.
you can get these 12 volt lights for about $5 each


they do a nice job for what they are


Is a tip or two OK?
If you know you are going to ad on later go a head and get a 40 amp mppt controller I got two for $200 each 
and they work fine. This is a tracer controller there like $180 without remote panel $220 with the panel


Panels,,
If you can get panels that you can go back and get more of the same panels when you ad on.
this just makes life more uncomplicated

Controls,
If you don't get a controller with a remote gauge pick up a low cost - $2- $5 voltage gauge. 
They are great to see what is really going on with the batteries. 


I'm a long way from an expert so some members on here might be able to offer more tips. 
Just my .02 - hopes this helps


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## 8301

Got to agree with Budget.... It's usually less expensive to reduce energy consumption than to purchase a larger solar setup. I know you're on a very tight budget but pay a bit extra up front for more efficient lights ect.


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## mattro_indy

budgetprepp-n, thanks for detailed reply! Big help!

On the panel, at this point I dont think I can justify a bigger panel then a 100w. Some 100w 12v panels on Amazon are $125-$145 which is pushing my initial budget. I am tempted to start with a 50w panel for budget reasons, knowing my load will be infrequent. If it takes 2-3 days to bring the battery back from 60% DOD, that might be okay. One question, should I shoot for a 24v panel, or go with a 12v panel? I understand some benefits to higher voltage but I am not seeing similar cost panels in 24v. The 24v panels are more expensive, not sure it is worth it on these smaller panels.

I am still torn on the battery. I know the marine hybrid 29DC will work but I am struggling if a 55ah AGM true deep cycle would be better. The cost is very similar.It has less capacity but likely better qualtiy and will lasts longer. Not sure...


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## budgetprepp-n

mattro_indy said:


> budgetprepp-n, thanks for detailed reply! Big help!
> 
> On the panel, at this point I dont think I can justify a bigger panel then a 100w. Some 100w 12v panels on Amazon are $125-$145 which is pushing my initial budget. I am tempted to start with a 50w panel for budget reasons, knowing my load will be infrequent. If it takes 2-3 days to bring the battery back from 60% DOD, that might be okay. One question, should I shoot for a 24v panel, or go with a 12v panel? I understand some benefits to higher voltage but I am not seeing similar cost panels in 24v. The 24v panels are more expensive, not sure it is worth it on these smaller panels.
> 
> I am still torn on the battery. I know the marine hybrid 29DC will work but I am struggling if a 55ah AGM true deep cycle would be better. The cost is very similar.It has less capacity but likely better qualtiy and will lasts longer. Not sure...


 Ok if you go with a 100 or 50 watt panel be shure to get it where you can go back and get more that are just like
the one you already have -- Makes it easier to tie them together --

When you just starting out and don't have a bunch of watts you could go with a regular controller not a mppt.
You can pick one up for $15 If you replace it later with a better one you din't lose much 
put that $160 You just saved and buy more watts.

And a extra left over controller is going to be a super grate bartering item. Batteries and solar panels are easy to find.
Finding a controller ,, Not so much

Which voltage panel to get? With the controllers we have now I don't think it matters much. maybe I'm wrong

Batteries? Did you say Harbor Freight? For batteries? Think about it,,, And wait for it


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## mattro_indy

I know the true deep cycle batteries are teh way to go, just have to weigh budget (5 kids, bills, broke working 3 jobs...)

For batteries, I am torn between:
2 of these, but it will be hard to justify and seems like overkill, but it is quality and easy to grow...
Duracell® Golf Car Battery - Group Size GC2 - Sam's Club

or this, I only need one and like that it is AGM
http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SB...=UTF8&qid=1446156833&sr=8-1&keywords=12v+55ah

or this, cheap easy, could sell in a yr or two for something if it survives my abuse...
EverStart Marine Battery, Group Size 29DC - Walmart.com


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## Racevedo007

Hey the same here, I want to build my solar system but Im thinking if its better a grid or off-grid system, somebody know if I buy a grid tied inverter could work here in Nevada? I don't want to sell my watts just to use my solar energy first and then the company's energy.


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## Mozingo

When I go to do mine I'm going to use a grid tied one to help lower my electric bill for sure. But I'm in Mississippi. I had one set up on my houseboat and as much as it ran while I was offshore not using any electricity it almost was enough to pay dock fee


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## 8301

Racevedo007 said:


> Hey the same here, I want to build my solar system but Im thinking if its better a grid or off-grid system, somebody know if I buy a grid tied inverter could work here in Nevada? I don't want to sell my watts just to use my solar energy first and then the company's energy.


Yes, You can use a grid tied inverter in NV.
This is a budget minded solar thread but to answer your questions...
Inverters that can grid tie are generally very expensive compared to an inverter not designed to tie to the grid. Some of the grid tie inverters out there (like a Conext 6048 or Outback Radian) allow you to program them different ways. I can sell to the grid or not, I can run on batteries only for weeks or months but flip a switch and tie to the grid after several cloudy days if needed.

I can stay tied to the grid but not selling to it and have the grid to assist with super heavy loads but the rest of the time the grid is only supplying a few watts (grid must supply a few watts so the inverter can stay in sync with the grid). In this mode I can also have the grid take over automatically if my batteries drop below a set voltage.

Or with a different meter on the house I can sell back to the grid.


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## Racevedo007

Thanks FoolAml that inverter looks awesome. Im interested in tie grid because the batterys are expensive.
Maybe I will try this onehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00BS2C75U/ref=pd_aw_sim_422_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=51gV6-LIFXL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL100_SR100%2C100_&refRID=1JX5V3TZZ26FCJAVDP5R
Just for my tv and sometime some 5w leds.


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## Montana Rancher

FoolAmI said:


> View attachment 12450
> View attachment 12451
> View attachment 12452
> 
> 
> A slightly larger solar setup (490 watts). I didn't bother to take pictures when I built it "hands on".
> The batteries (three 125 amp/hr Trojan 12v) and electronics box (2nd picture) are under the panels. Total cost with the three original 106 amp Auto Zone batteries was $1350 the Auto Zone batteries lasted about 3 1/2 years under heavy strain from a small AC unit during the summers and my TV and satellite receiver during the winters using only two 100 watt panels which could barely keep up. I added the 2 additional panels later but are considered part of the original $1350 cost since I got them several years ago and never mounted them.. I purchased the larger Trojan batteries this Spring.
> 
> The original 200 watts worth of panels could barely recharge the almost drained 106 amp batteries (500 watt ac running for 2-3 hrs per day) on a good day. The three old batteries could run the 500 watt ac about 3 hrs on their own so the panels charged up the batteries while I was at work and then the batteries cooled down the bedroom after I got home. Still, 200 watts is plenty for some led or florescent lighting and recharging anything you may desire.
> 
> A thought, While I don't think EMP will be what gets us I've still scrounged a 100 watt panel with a cheap charge controller and 400 watt inverter (all yard sale purchases but tested good) and tossed them in a faraday bag "just in case". Batteries will survive an EMP and I've already got those. Even 100 watts would make a huge difference if the power went out.


Hello
A lot of information here so I am going to take this in bites, I've had a 3750w solar array going on 3 years, I know this is about smaller set ups but I'll interject a few relevant point.

In this post you are paying way too much for your batteries. In a efficient solar battery bank you get your batteries in 6 volt increments, if you buy 12v batteries you will not be as efficient.

So your 3x auto zone 106 amp batteries for $1350 should have been done like this

DEKA Flooded L16 - 6V 370aH Battery - 8L16LTP-DEKA | Backwoods Solar

Buy 2 of those, wire them in series to get 12 volts and $600 plus freight you will have a 12 volt battery bank with 370 amp hours of power. I realize that is about the same as your setup (my 370 and your 318) but the 8L16 batteries have a useful life about 4 times your "golf cart batteries".

I promised to take this in chunks so I'll save further feedback for the rest of the post, or add it to the end.


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## Montana Rancher

mattro_indy said:


> This thread interests me. I am new to solar (sighs from crowd). I am wanting to build a small system on a VERY tight budget, trying to buy decent stuff that will have many years good use and a system I can grow. Intended use is to charge AA batteries, charge handheld electronics (phones and such); run future small HAM radio, and run a string of LED lights; all in the unlikely event of "lights out" SHTF. I understand the basics of calculating demand and recharge. I am planning on a 100w panel and hopefully an entry level MPPT controller.
> 
> My big question is the batteries. I would like to keep the initial battery cost at $100 but dont want to throw money away. *I am not understanding the difference in usability and life span between Walmart 29DC and a true deep cycle.* The usable AH is almost impossible to compare and I think the hybrid Walmart battery's tolerable discharge level is no where as deep as a true deep cycle. I cant really afford two Sams Club GC2 batteries at $85 bucks each but will if it makes a world of difference, but it appears (without better knowledge) that the Sams 29DC has a similar capacity to two GC2 batteries??? Quality 20AH 12volt deep cycle batteries run about $45 each, but how would two of those compare to the Sams 29DC? If the 29DC serves its purpose for 3-4 years then junks out with light usage, that is not completely unacceptable.
> 
> Harbor freight has these 12 Volt, 35 Amp Hour AGM for $73. That would give me true deep cycle without having to buy two right away to get to 12v.
> 
> Finding 12v appliances for a prolonged lights out would be nice but I understand I would quickly outgrow this small setup. Being able to smartly add panels and increase the capacity of battery bank would be nice without throwing the initial batteries away.
> 
> Any help understanding the differences in the 29DC, 12v 20AH, and the Sams golf cart GC2 (or maybe I am missing a better option) would be greatly appreciated. Trying to go cheap but not stupid.


Adding to my last post, you can't do a decent solar battery system for $100 but you can prepare for when you will need it. IMO get a decent charge controller, a inverter, a lot of wire and connectors and as many solar panels as you can afford. When SHTF strip all the cars you can find of their batteries and "there you go", a hillbilly solar setup that will earn you millions of ... whatever the new currency is.


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## Montana Rancher

mattro_indy said:


> Ripon, to make sure I follow, are you saying a Renogy 100w mono panel is not effecient or would be good for maintaining a small battery bank? Or just not as usefull as a 240-320 watt panel?
> 
> Nobody biting on my battery question? A quality 35ah SLA Deep cycle is around $70. A Walamrt hybrid battery 29DC is around $85. How do they compare for capacity, life, how low will they discharge happily? If I go down to a 35ah battery for this small solution, maybe a 50w panel will suffice even though it is only about $45 less then a 100w panel.
> 
> Obviously its harder to build a small system on a tight budget, then a large system...


I didn't reply to your SLA battery but here it is now. 35 amp hours really? HAHAHAHHAHA

But seriously it depends on what you need power for. If you want to recharge batteries and power hand held lights, then you are golden.

If you want to do anyfreekinthing else, you will need a bit more


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## Montana Rancher

mattro_indy said:


> budgetprepp-n, thanks for detailed reply! Big help!
> 
> On the panel, at this point I dont think I can justify a bigger panel then a 100w. Some 100w 12v panels on Amazon are $125-$145 which is pushing my initial budget. I am tempted to start with a 50w panel for budget reasons, knowing my load will be infrequent. If it takes 2-3 days to bring the battery back from 60% DOD, that might be okay. One question, should I shoot for a 24v panel, or go with a 12v panel? I understand some benefits to higher voltage but I am not seeing similar cost panels in 24v. The 24v panels are more expensive, not sure it is worth it on these smaller panels.
> 
> I am still torn on the battery. I know the marine hybrid 29DC will work but I am struggling if a 55ah AGM true deep cycle would be better. The cost is very similar.It has less capacity but likely better qualtiy and will lasts longer. Not sure...


I like keeping this in chunks of information, when designing a solar system we tend to think in Volts and Watts which is driven by the people selling the systems, but the real measurement is AMPS.

My oldest and largest chest freezer burns 8 amps when it is running, my newest chest freezer burn 7 amps, my forced air furnace is 4.4 amps when running, my pretty recent refrigerator is 7 amps.

There has been a lot of discussion about battery banks and we only talk about Amp Hours they store. ... ... SO I am hoping you are making the math in your head. If you store 106 amp hours in your batteries you can run my chest freezer for 106/8 or about 13 hours of run time. But as my freezer only runs on and off during the day that time will change.

But as you add the refrigerator, a second freezer, lights, well pump, the need for more amp hours of storage and more amp hours of solar recharge increase.

My point is if you really want to go "off grid' and make a solar system that will meet your needs, you need to give up watts, and volts, and look at how many amps you are burning, then divide that by the number of amps your batteries can store. Then divide that by the number of amps your solar array can absorb in a given day (varies by the area you live) and then subtract 50% for overcast days, wrong sun angle, chem trails and you will find you need about 50% more panels than you planned on.


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## Montana Rancher

mattro_indy said:


> I know the true deep cycle batteries are teh way to go, just have to weigh budget (5 kids, bills, broke working 3 jobs...)
> 
> For batteries, I am torn between:
> 2 of these, but it will be hard to justify and seems like overkill, but it is quality and easy to grow...
> Duracell® Golf Car Battery - Group Size GC2 - Sam's Club
> 
> or this, I only need one and like that it is AGM
> http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SB...=UTF8&qid=1446156833&sr=8-1&keywords=12v+55ah
> 
> or this, cheap easy, could sell in a yr or two for something if it survives my abuse...
> EverStart Marine Battery, Group Size 29DC - Walmart.com


I'm repeating myself but don't buy the batteries, get the panels, the charge controllers, the inverters. When SHTF there will be plenty of batteries laying on the ground (hehe a quote from a favorite movie, which one)


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## Montana Rancher

Racevedo007 said:


> Hey the same here, I want to build my solar system but Im thinking if its better a grid or off-grid system, somebody know if I buy a grid tied inverter could work here in Nevada? I don't want to sell my watts just to use my solar energy first and then the company's energy.


I believe the federal tax credit system expired in 2014 where they paid you to install a system and feed it back into the grid. IMO a waste of money, you are in or out when it comes to energy independence, pick a side.


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## Montana Rancher

A few parting thoughts

I don't have my entire house off the grid, truthfully at 13 cents KWH it doesn't make sense during the winter. I need to run my stock tank heaters and my furnace runs a LOT and I have to plug in my diesel truck to get to work. 

That being said SHTF I am totally golden as I don't have to get to work, I can easily take water from my creek and move it to the horse pasture and my freezers run very little in the winter. 

I also don't want my entire house to LIGHT UP the day the SHTF as it will let everyone else know that I have power and they do not, its an opsec thing.

That being said I admire the people that are planning 100watt systems now, you can charge a LOT of batteries on a couple "Harbor freight" 45w solar arrays and you will be far better off than 99% of your neighbors.

Keep up the good work!


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## GTGallop

X-Series Home Solar Panels | SunPower

This is whats on my roof right now. About 30 of them. I asked to buy one to play with but it was going to be cuhrayzee expensive! And they are like 4x8' large which makes them not really portable. but they crank out 240 watts each so it is great for a home set up where you don't have to go move them around or store them.


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## 8301

Montana Rancher said:


> I believe the federal tax credit system expired in 2014 where they paid you to install a system and feed it back into the grid. IMO a waste of money, you are in or out when it comes to energy independence, pick a side.


The Federal 30% solar tax break was originally set to expire in 2016. Last week it was extended until 2021.


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## 8301

Montana Rancher said:


> Hello
> A lot of information here so I am going to take this in bites, I've had a 3750w solar array going on 3 years, I know this is about smaller set ups but I'll interject a few relevant point.
> 
> In this post you are paying way too much for your batteries. In a efficient solar battery bank you get your batteries in 6 volt increments, if you buy 12v batteries you will not be as efficient.
> 
> So your 3x auto zone 106 amp batteries for $1350 should have been done like this
> 
> DEKA Flooded L16 - 6V 370aH Battery - 8L16LTP-DEKA | Backwoods Solar
> 
> Buy 2 of those, wire them in series to get 12 volts and $600 plus freight you will have a 12 volt battery bank with 370 amp hours of power. I realize that is about the same as your setup (my 370 and your 318) but the 8L16 batteries have a useful life about 4 times your "golf cart batteries".
> 
> I promised to take this in chunks so I'll save further feedback for the rest of the post, or add it to the end.


1. $1350 was for the batteries, panels, tristar controller, pure sine wave inverter, wood , screws.... the entire package including all wire.

2. I put in a 4500 watt system this fall which runs 90% of my house even this time of year. This larger system has eight Crown 6v batteries for a 395 amp/hr 8v battery bank.


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## 8301

Recommended solar panel to battery ratio. This is what the industry uses.

First due to wiring power loss, realistic ratio between what a panel is rated at and what it actually puts out in average sun, charge controller losses, and battery inefficiencies at absorbing the energy you figure on 77% of the rated power panel puts out in strong sun is what actually gets absorbed by the battery.

So. A 100 watt panel with a MPPT charge controller (better than a PPM controller) charging a 12 battery would actually put about 77 watts in average sun into the battery. 77 (watts)/ 12v = 6.5 amps charging the battery in good sun.

You want to charge your battery bank at at least a 5% rate (C/20 rate, barely acceptable) and no more than a 25% rate (C/4, faster and you can damage your battery) Solar installers shoot for between 10% and 15% charge rate (C/10 - C/7) with Lead acid and AGM batteries. 
(Never charge Gel batteries faster than a 15% charge rate)

This means that for every 100 watts of panels with a 12v battery (capacity measured at 20/hr discharge rate) you want between 65 amp/hr reserve (C/10) and 45 amp/hr reserve (C/7 charging rate).

Personally with panels becoming less expensive I like to charge faster, around a 17% rate (C/6) so for every 100 watts of panels I would need about 40 amp/hr battery reserve capacity (same 12v battery)

There are pros and cons for every battery charging rate but like I mentioned above the solar professionals go for between a 10-15% charging rate between the panels (derailed to 77%) and batteries.


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## budgetprepp-n

Montana Rancher said:


> I'm repeating myself but don't buy the batteries, get the panels, the charge controllers, the inverters. When SHTF there will be plenty of batteries laying on the ground (hehe a quote from a favorite movie, which one)


That was a Mel Gibson movie. We were.......


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## budgetprepp-n

Can I bust this solar panel to battery bank thing down to the redneckanize language?

Ok think of your battery bank as lets say,,, A bank of batteries. The more batteries you have the more
power you can store.

Now think of your solar panel as a battery charger. The more amps you have the bigger the battery
charger is and the faster you can charge batteries and if your charger is big enough you can keep up with
demand at the same time. 

Don't worry about to many solar panels you won't damage the batteries with to much electric the controller
will take care of that. 

So yea a 100 watt panel will charge up a big battery bank but it might take a few days and you
can't be using any power while you are charging them up.


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## 8301

budgetprepp-n said:


> Can I bust this solar panel to battery bank thing down to the redneckanize language?
> 
> The more batteries the more power you can store.
> 
> Don't worry about to many solar panels you won't damage the batteries with to much electric the controller
> will take care of that


******* language,,, Point 1... If you have too many batteries for your solar panels you will get crappy uneven charging pucking up your batteries and killing your power making you a dumba-s with no power. can I bum a dip off you?

Number two. The da-m charge controller will charge your batteries too fast if you don't have enough batteries for the panels also seriously screwing the pucking batteries up.... get me another beer bi_ch.

be a dumbass or use the brains God gave you ignorant foul smelling hillbilly inbreed person we all love to listen too....

Have a nice day. : )


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## budgetprepp-n

FoolAmI said:


> ******* language,,, Point 1... If you have too many batteries for your solar panels you will get crappy uneven charging pucking up your batteries and killing your power making you a dumba-s with no power. can I bum a dip off you?
> 
> Number two. The da-m charge controller will charge your batteries too fast if you don't have enough batteries for the panels also seriously screwing the pucking batteries up.... get me another beer bi_ch.
> 
> be a dumbass or use the brains God gave you ignorant foul smelling hillbilly inbreed person we all love to listen too....
> 
> Have a nice day. : )


 Tell you what I have done,, I started out with a small 100 watt solar set up. Over the years it has grown
to a little over 1100 watts. And I have done more than my share of experimenting along the way.

I have had 800 watts of solar panels with a MPPT controller hooked to one car battery to charge it up. And
it didn't get super hot or explode it just charged up and as it got closer to a full charge the controller charged
it slower until it had reached a full charge and then it just did nothing just sort of idled on a float charge
and kept it at about 13.4 ,, Just like the manufacture of the controller said it would.

So much for to many panels.

Not enough panels or to many batteries?
Yes this can be a problem if you don't get enough charging power while you are using electric
the batteries will be so low on charge that they may be damaged. But if the batteries are turned off from
any draw of power even a small amount of amps from a solar panel will fully charge them-- Like a trickle charger.
The trick would be to keep an eye on them and shut off the drain on the batteries before they
get to low if you use them.

How is the amount of power being supplied to the battery bank going to change which battery gets more charge?

I have my batteries wired in Parallel the positive current goes in one end of the bank of batteries and the negative 
current is hooked to the other end of the battery bank I just don't see how one battery can get over charged and fry 
while another one gets undercharged with the current going through all the batteries at the same rate.

With my set up I have 14 batteries and in the summer I have got probably to many panels I use my system to run 
all the lights, TV, Computer, And lots of small stuff I even run my refrigerator sometimes when we are having good
bright sunny days. And by 11:00 the next morning my batteries are back up to full charge even while I am using power.
In the bright sunlight they stay about 13.5 and I run basically off the panels.

In the winter like now,, We don't get much sun light hours and what we do get is gloomy. My batteries would run way to
low and damage themselves. So I unhook all but 3 to 4 batteries and all I run are only the lights (LEDS) and it works out about right.

If I am going to be gone for a day or two I turn off any draw on the batteries and hook up all the batteries it takes a while
but the smaller amount of current I get from a gloomy day will bring the batteries up to full charge and the controller will
go into like a "float" mode. Just like a trickle charger.

QUESTION, you said,,
"be a dumbass or use the brains God gave you ignorant foul smelling hillbilly inbreed person we all love to listen too..."

Why do city pepole like you enjoy talking down to pepole? I'd like to know, We don't do that here.


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## Montana Rancher

FoolAmI said:


> 1. $1350 was for the batteries, panels, tristar controller, pure sine wave inverter, wood , screws.... the entire package including all wire.
> 
> 2. I put in a 4500 watt system this fall which runs 90% of my house even this time of year. This larger system has eight Crown 6v batteries for a 395 amp/hr 8v battery bank.


Thank you for the clarification, that makes a lot more sence.


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## 8301

budgetprepp-n said:


> So much for to many panels.


PWM and MPPT charge controllers allow full current flow assuming they are capable of passing through the amperage and they aren't using a temp sensor which made them derate when they sensed the battery temp rise. They keep at full flow until the battery reaches about 15.2v ( at which point battery is about 90% charged). During this full power charge period the battery's internal resistance creates excess heat if it is charged to quickly so even though the battery is not fully charged it can be overheated. My guess is when you were charging that single battery up you had a temp sensor on the MPPT controller which derated the controller so you were never giving that battery a full 1100 watt charge after the 1st 20 minutes. I also suspect you didn't keep that setup for more than a year or the battery would still have burned out.



budgetprepp-n said:


> Not enough panels or too many batteries


Because of the internal resistance to charging all batteries have if you under panel (< C/20 rate) you will fully charge the 1st few cells in the battery and under charge the last cell or two killing your batteries after a year or three.



budgetprepp-n said:


> How is the amount of power being supplied to the battery bank going to change which battery gets more charge?


See answer above.

Without knowing what your panels rating is and your battery bank actually is I can't comment except to say with 11 batteries in what I assume to be a 12v system you've defiantly got unequal cell charging damaging your batteries. What is the spread on your cells SG (specific gravity). I'd bet you a donut it's well over the .005 allowable spread. And if you've mixed batteries which came from the factory with different SG fills.... yea, you are defiantly hurting your expensive battery bank.



budgetprepp-n said:


> QUESTION, you said,,
> "be a dumbass or use the brains God gave you ignorant foul smelling hillbilly inbreed person we all love to listen too..."
> 
> Why do city pepole like you enjoy talking down to pepole? I'd like to know, We don't do that here.


I have little patience for people who are too lazy put the effort in to use their brain and correct their ignorance. So if a person acts like a ignorant ******* then that is how I will treat them.

I'm from the country, fed the horses this morning, shot a coyote last night. I realize that that's not really how people out here talk to each other, except the very few ignorant ones; the type who just push forward without thinking about their actions. Sometimes they learn very expensive lessons because they refuse to take the time to learn something but instead just charge ahead. So how much did those 11 batteries cost you?

Why did you even bother to ask about battery bank sizing if you're not going to bother to actually read my original answer (post #39) and use your brain to understand it?


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## DadofTheFamily

I have a Harbor Freight setup on my barn. It's easy to install and reliable for a small setup. It will run a series of portable LED lights I have in each room of the house.


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## budgetprepp-n

DadofTheFamily said:


> I have a Harbor Freight setup on my barn. It's easy to install and reliable for a small setup. It will run a series of portable LED lights I have in each room of the house.


What are you using for a battery? 
And have you seen the 12 volt led lights that look like a regular light bulb?


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