# pfizer shot



## Wedrownik

So I had an opportunity come up to take the pfizer vaccine... and I took it. Next does will be on 1/25.... now let's see if I win the lottery and end up in the small percentage that feels like crap for the next few days.....


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## stevekozak

Wedrownik said:


> So I had an opportunity come up to take the pfizer vaccine... and I took it. Next does will be on 1/25.... now let's see if I win the lottery and end up in the small percentage that feels like crap for the next few days.....


Wedrownik, we hardly knew ye!!! Good luck.


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## Wedrownik

stevekozak said:


> wedrownik, we hardly knew ye!!! Good luck.


rotflmao!!!!!


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> So I had an opportunity come up to take the pfizer vaccine... and I took it. Next does will be on 1/25.... now let's see if I win the lottery and end up in the small percentage that feels like crap for the next few days.....


If you are still able to post, let us know when you eat your neighbors. Also, let us know if they tasted like chicken or pork.


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## Wedrownik

Denton said:


> If you are still able to post, let us know when you eat your neighbors. Also, let us know if they tasted like chicken or pork.


There is that one neighbour couple houses over. She looks rather intriguing and I wouldn't mind.... oh wait... that's not what you meant


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> There is that one neighbour couple houses over. She looks rather intriguing and I wouldn't mind.... oh wait... that's not what you meant


My bad. By _eat_, I meant to consume for zombie-dietary reasons. :tango_face_grin:


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## Wedrownik

Denton said:


> My bad. By _eat_, I meant to consume for zombie-dietary reasons. :tango_face_grin:


Well, so funny enough, I have to be frank: I am concerned if there are any long term effects that will pop up. For a variety of reasons, my wife was more interested in taking the shot first (potential need to travel internationally) and I was going to hold off (we were planning to stagger our shots so that both of us are not impacted due to our 7 year old). Anyways, I got an opportunity to take the vaccine so I sucked it up and said: fine... I'll take it and then as soon as there is an opportunity for you to take yours, you'll travel through a known path..... so yeah.... no whiskey for me tonight, though I'm tempted to have a few fingers of an 18 year old (single malt that is  ) but I wanna make sure that if I feel any adverse effects I know where they came from.


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> Well, so funny enough, I have to be frank: I am concerned if there are any long term effects that will pop up. For a variety of reasons, my wife was more interested in taking the shot first (potential need to travel internationally) and I was going to hold off (we were planning to stagger our shots so that both of us are not impacted due to our 7 year old). Anyways, I got an opportunity to take the vaccine so I sucked it up and said: fine... I'll take it and then as soon as there is an opportunity for you to take yours, you'll travel through a known path..... so yeah.... no whiskey for me tonight, though I'm tempted to have a few fingers of an 18 year old (single malt that is  ) but I wanna make sure that if I feel any adverse effects I know where they came from.


Well, y'all have taken it and you can't undo it. I wish you hadn't. I don't plan to take it. I've no desire to be a lab rat.


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## Wedrownik

The lab rat portion is over for most part. I think now it's the chimp part if anything 😉

Anyways, not here to argue the pros and cons or any potential secret government plans. I took the vaccine upon consulting with two very good friends of mine that work as researchers in pharmaceutical industry (both got PhDs and I have known them forever).


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## Chipper

In my neck of the woods you never do what a friend suggests. That's the first red flag.


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## Wedrownik

Chipper said:


> In my neck of the woods you never do what a friend suggests. That's the first red flag.


I didn't do what the friend suggested, I asked about what the vaccine means and how it works.


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> I didn't do what the friend suggested, I asked about what the vaccine means and how it works.


https://rairfoundation.com/dire-war...s-major-risks-of-gene-altering-vaccine-video/

Good luck!


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## Wedrownik

Denton said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't do what the friend suggested, I asked about what the vaccine means and how it works.
> 
> 
> 
> https://rairfoundation.com/dire-war...s-major-risks-of-gene-altering-vaccine-video/
> 
> Good luck!
Click to expand...

So I will dust off my favourite saying: opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they all stink.

His seems to be of the following type: I'm going try and be relevant and go counter to everyone cause I'm not important anymore.... but that's my opinion (see my favourite saying above).

Anyways, not trying to convince anyone to get it or not get it (though I do have my opinion or those who are opposed to it as I lost more folks both close and distant to me in 2020 then probably in at least the last 25 years)

Anyways..... no headache, no soreness in the arm.... off go meet Morpheus.


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> So I will dust off my favourite saying: opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they all stink.
> 
> His seems to be of the following type: I'm going try and be relevant and go counter to everyone cause I'm not important anymore.... but that's my opinion (see my favourite saying above).
> 
> Anyways, not trying to convince anyone to get it or not get it (though I do have my opinion or those who are opposed to it as I lost more folks both close and distant to me in 2020 then probably in at least the last 25 years)
> 
> Anyways..... no headache, no soreness in the arm.... off go meet Morpheus.


Glad you are feeling good. Keep us updated.

BTW, did you read the article?


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## Wedrownik

Yes I did. Not sold.


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> Yes I did. Not sold.


I understand. I'm not sold, either. Not sold either way, so I'll not take the shot. I'll wait, watch and see. A year.


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> Yes I did. Not sold.


Curious; why are you not sold on what you read, something written by a preeminent doctor-type but were sold by your friends to take it?


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## Wedrownik

This type of vaccine is not new. Lots of discussion but I'll summarize in the simplest way I can: you know that there is a variety of beer on the market and someone comes out with a new type. Because the beer making process has been well documented the new beer is safe because it's new but not really.

Also professor emeritus - I got issues with the academia supporting folks who should be not relevant as they struggle to keep in the spotlight the same way I have issues with 90 year old politicians deciding our fate


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> This type of vaccine is not new. Lots of discussion but I'll summarize in the simplest way I can: you know that there is a variety of beer on the market and someone comes out with a new type. Because the beer making process has been well documented the new beer is safe because it's new but not really.
> 
> Also professor emeritus - I got issues with the academia supporting folks who should be not relevant as they struggle to keep in the spotlight the same way I have issues with 90 year old politicians deciding our fate


This is making beer in a totally different manner. This is beer-making in a manner that has never been done. This is beer-making that hasn't before been done because it has risks. Big risks.

Actually, beer-making is a bad metaphor.

I'm not a doctor or a scientist. I'm just a curious bastard who knew of this concept before this KungFlu BS. I read crazy crap that doesn't have a thing to do with helicopters, politics or current events. I know; surprising. I even watch Food Network, but I have to admit that is at the force of Wifey. :tango_face_smile:


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## Wedrownik

You do realize that this vaccine type existed for quite a bit already?


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> You do realize that this vaccine type existed for quite a bit already?


I know that the concept has been in the works for years. Did you miss it when I said I was aware of mRNA vaccine notions long before the KungFlu?

There are reasons why it hasn't been accepted for use on humans.


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## Denton

It doesn't matter. You took it. I wish you all the good fortune as possible.


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## Wedrownik

So I slept through the night, arm a bit sore but for the most part I am feeling good: definitely no weird cravings of the flesh.


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## Green Lilly

Denton said:


> I know that the concept has been in the works for years. Did you miss it when I said I was aware of mRNA vaccine notions long before the KungFlu?
> 
> There are reasons why it hasn't been accepted for use on humans.


This is my issue with it. Yes they have been working with mRNA as a vehicle for many things for years, I think at least 15-20. Mainly cancer and HIV applications. Before now they hadn't been largely successful in stabilizing it. How they managed to do, in a span of 3-4 months what they couldn't do for 15+ years is extremely sketch in my opinion. I know, necessity is the mother of all invention but it just seems on the side of unbelievable.

The technology definitely seems promising but without having good data on long term side effects it seems too risky for me as a younger healthy adult. Those with compromised immune systems or that are older would likely weight the benefit to risk ratio differently then I do.

I truly hope my concerns are unfounded and those taking it remain well and have no long term adverse effects.


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## Kauboy

Until COVID, there hasn't been a single licensed vaccine ever produced using this mRNA process.
This alone makes it worth waiting.

We aren't talking about a potential therapy for a few thousand people.
We are discussing a vaccination that could affect millions in the U.S., and billions abroad.

I won't be jumping on that bandwagon too soon. I'm a young and relatively healthy person. For now, I'll get my immunity the old fashioned way


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## Sasquatch

Imagine that!









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## SAR-1L

100% of people who drink water die. :laugh:


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## Kauboy

SAR-1L said:


> 100% of people who drink water die. :laugh:


...insert inappropriate W.C. Fields quote about drinking water here...


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## Prepared One

Maybe it takes weeks, or even months before you turn into a walking liberal, then you die. :tango_face_grin:


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## Wedrownik

Arm soreness is almost gone. Altogether feeling good...


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## Wedrownik

Over 2 weeks have passed and I'm good - no extra appendages, no super powers. Got my second shot scheduled for this coming Monday.

On a related note, drove my 80+ year old folks for their Moderna shot (facility that was offering C19 vaccination for them did not have the cold storage capability so they were offering Moderna). They got it on Saturday and they are doing good.


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## Annie

Wedrownik said:


> Over 2 weeks have passed and I'm good - no extra appendages, no super powers. Got my second shot scheduled for this coming Monday.
> 
> On a related note, drove my 80+ year old folks for their Moderna shot (facility that was offering C19 vaccination for them did not have the cold storage capability so they were offering Moderna). They got it on Saturday and they are doing good.


Glad you're okay. I'm gonna say everyone else who wants it get it. I'll take a pass, thanks.


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## Wedrownik

Annie said:


> Glad you're okay. I'm gonna say everyone else who wants it get it. I'll take a pass, thanks.


I totally understand that some folks choose not to get it. One thing that I'm wondering about is should: the folks that had the opportunity to take the shot and chose to skip it and got sick , be charged extra for their care since their own actions put them at the higher risks? Kind of like smokers get charged more for certain medical costs and for life insurance.

Not judging, but rather wondering since there is a huge financial impact in quite a few cases.


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## Annie

Wedrownik said:


> I totally understand that some folks choose not to get it. One thing that I'm wondering about is should: the folks that had the opportunity to take the shot and chose to skip it and got sick , be charged extra for their care since their own actions put them at the higher risks? Kind of like smokers get charged more for certain medical costs and for life insurance.
> 
> Not judging, but rather wondering since there is a huge financial impact in quite a few cases.


Hubs gets taxed to death for everything everyone else needs as it is now, anyway. What's one more expense, right?

Oh well, cheer up time. Did you know that Lady Gaga is singing the national anthem at the inauguration? Jojo sure can pick 'em.


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## Wedrownik

Annie said:


> Hubs gets taxed to death for everything everyone else needs as it is now, anyway. What's one more expense, right?
> 
> Oh well, cheer up time. Did you know that Lady Gaga is singing the national anthem at the inauguration? Jojo sure can pick 'em.


Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.

My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....


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## Sasquatch

Wedrownik said:


> I totally understand that some folks choose not to get it. One thing that I'm wondering about is should: the folks that had the opportunity to take the shot and chose to skip it and got sick , be charged extra for their care since their own actions put them at the higher risks? Kind of like smokers get charged more for certain medical costs and for life insurance.
> 
> Not judging, but rather wondering since there is a huge financial impact in quite a few cases.


So we itemize everything that puts someone at higher risk and charge them more?

Say I enjoy skydiving, diving with sharks, shooting guns motorcross and bungee jumping. Do I have to pay more or give up the activities I enjoy because I've now been charged out of doing them? Sounds like my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are being stomped on by a tax.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Annie

Wedrownik said:


> Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.
> 
> My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....


No, it's totally simple as I've already explained, but it appears you're looking for some sort of debate. Aren't you? You just want to "Tax the non-compliers more." I can almost already hear you cheering in some audience somewhere in the back of your brain.


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.
> 
> My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....


That's your opinion, and that's A-OK. I don't subscribe to it. Me not getting the shot is not the same as if I still smoked.

If I get the Vid, I'll be OK. If not and I have to go to the hospital, that's OK as well. If I die, I die. That's the way it is. Same with influenza, pneumonia, etc.

So far, you've had no known issues with the mRNA "vaccine." That doesn't mean something isn't on the horizon, though. The mRNA treatment isn't new, but there are reasons it hasn't been used.

There have been side effects to the shot and there have been deaths. That being the case, should those who have taken what is very close to being an experimental treatment be charged more for insurance?


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## Wedrownik

You're totally right - but this goes back to my core belief - we shouldn't be beholden to taxes and the like. Before insurance, all medicine was cash only business and things were good. Currently a lot of the folks getting care for Covid get it subsidized by the government and insurance which gets spread across everyone else cause government does not have money - it's all citizens money and same goes for insurance. So now if there is a way to prevent that cost and you choose not to take it who should bear the burden? Anyways, it's more of a philosophical question probably and no I'm not looking for debate nor am I expecting for someone to suddenly decide that they will get the shot because my points make sense. What I want to live folks with (and this is theoretically the perfect group) something to reflect on about taking responsibilities for their own actions. We prep, we get supplies and we don't expect someone to hand over to us what we need. Why should the same not apply here? Anyways, topic to reflect on.


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## SGT E

I took the pfizer covid vaccine Sunday morning at the VA.....I cant tell I took anything.


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## Denton

SGT E said:


> I took the pfizer covid vaccine Sunday morning at the VA.....I cant tell I took anything.


Well, let's see if there are any changes.

What do you think of gun control?

Socialism; good or bad?


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## Wedrownik

Shot number two is in.... from what I hear you feel worse after the second one... so I am using that as an excuse to do nothing.


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## SGG

My girlfriend did as well haha
Turns out it was a good thing because the couple of days she took off, one of our dogs started throwing up blood and we had to get him emergency care. Fine now hopefully, a second blood test this week to see if he has cancer. Probably was just backed up from something he ate. $1,000+ bill.
Anyway my girlfriend had no adverse reaction. She works Health Care, they weren't going to mandate it but she walked into work one day and they did.


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## MisterMills357

SAR-1L said:


> 100% of people who drink water die. :laugh:





Kauboy said:


> ...insert inappropriate W.C. Fields quote about drinking water here...











WC must have taken his water seldom like, and always used a bottle of whiskey to wash it down.:devil:


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## Kauboy

MisterMills357 said:


> View attachment 111061
> 
> 
> WC must have taken his water seldom like, and always used a bottle of whiskey to wash it down.:devil:


Oh there's a far worse quote from him on the subject, the uncensored posting of which earns a timeout in the icebox.
:tango_face_wink:


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## MisterMills357

Kauboy said:


> Oh there's a far worse quote from him on the subject, the uncensored posting of which earns a timeout in the icebox.
> :tango_face_wink:


I keep it family friendly, and I watched him when I was very young. WC and Mae West together in a movie, can be hilarious .


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## stevekozak

Wedrownik said:


> I totally understand that some folks choose not to get it. One thing that I'm wondering about is should: the folks that had the opportunity to take the shot and chose to skip it and got sick , be charged extra for their care since their own actions put them at the higher risks? Kind of like smokers get charged more for certain medical costs and for life insurance.
> 
> Not judging, but rather wondering since there is a huge financial impact in quite a few cases.


Feeling fine, huh? I am starting to detect a wee bit of liberal in your post. What is the incubation time on this vax?


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## Wedrownik

Not sure where you are getting liberal. My approach is rather pragmatic. If insurance costs are spread across all the people who buy into the insurance and they bear all the burdens at appropriate levels i.e. folks who are smokers pay more cause they have higher risk factors.

So same goes for Covid. The actual costs for treatment could get pretty high. Wouldn't it make sense that you either pay more or sign a clause saying that Covid treatment is excluded? The exclusion might be the most fair altogether. And btw if you are egainst the exclusion that would make you socialist 

Oh yeah - feeling good for most part with a slight headache.


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## smokeyquartz

Wedrownik said:


> Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.
> 
> My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....


You are assuming that if I would get sick that I would go to a doctor or hospital. I don't go to them. I am not afraid to die from the boogey virus. I accept death is a part of life. I may get hit by a bus tomorrow for all I know. Medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death. And, since I am going to die one day anyway, I think it's highly unethical for a medical practitioner to plunder my body (or any human body) for profit.

I used to work for lawyers, which some people call bloodsuckers. But they never literally made their living off of human flesh. Medical practitioners are literal bloodsuckers. I hope I've made myself clear about how I feel about the "helpfulness" of the medical community. I am going to die a natural death in my own home.


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## rice paddy daddy

I gave it a lot of thought, and since my wife is 74 and immune compromised, I decided to get the vaccine. If I did not, and brought home an illness that killed her............................
I signed up at the VA, my clinic uses Moderna and are doing vets 75 and older first.

I had a talk with my doctor, since he literally knows me inside and out, and he advised me I should have no concerns of adverse reaction and to get the shot.


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## Wedrownik

smokeyquartz said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.
> 
> My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....
> 
> 
> 
> You are assuming that if I would get sick that I would go to a doctor or hospital. I don't go to them. I am not afraid to die from the boogey virus. I accept death is a part of life. I may get hit by a bus tomorrow for all I know. Medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death. And, since I am going to die one day anyway, I think it's highly unethical for a medical practitioner to plunder my body (or any human body) for profit.
> 
> I used to work for lawyers, which some people call bloodsuckers. But they never literally made their living off of human flesh. Medical practitioners are literal bloodsuckers. I hope I've made myself clear about how I feel about the "helpfulness" of the medical community. I am going to die a natural death in my own home.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. So (consider this conversation over a round of beers theorizing) would you consider agreeing to pay more for your covid treatment should you get sick after refusing a shot.

This gives you an option not to pay more for insurance and should you not get sick or do not need special treatment you're ahead. Now if you end up needing extra care for covid you'd pay extra? I'd go as far as saying your costs should have vaccine costs subtracted from them since you never took it.


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## smokeyquartz

@Wedrownik

If I get COVID (highly unlikely), I will not SEEK TREATMENT. I think you didn't understand or read my post. I am not going to seek treatment for anything (COVID, cancer, whatever). If I die, then I die. The medical "caretakers" have made themselves untrustworthy to me. I would rather die a natural death.

Oh, and about "treatment" for COVID - I took care of my dad who had the COVID (this was before any vaccine was available. he is fine now, fyi). You want to know what "treatment" the medical imbeciles gave him? NOTHING. I took care of him and I didn't get paid for it from anyone's health insurance. And I didn't get sick either. But you can bet someone somewhere profited from my dad's sole visit to the hospital to be told he was sick and then simply turned away. Who knows how much money they made just to tell him to go home, and you'll either make it or not.

Edit: If you want to make a higher cost for people who don't want to have anything to do with the medical community and never seek treatment for anything, that's fine. It doesn't affect me. I'm not going to seek "help" from them. They're no "heroes" to me. They can suck my middle finger, since I lack the other appendage (F).


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## Wedrownik

So to summarize your post you'd be fine paying more should you need specialized treatment after getting vaccine... Fair enough


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## smokeyquartz

@Wedrownik

Are you trying to tick me off? I've already had illnesses and never sought treatment for them. If I get COVID and it's really bad, I choose death. It's extremely unlikely, however, because I'm not 85 years old with 15+ other things already wrong with me. And if I would be that age with those multiple things wrong, I don't understand why I would seek treatment anyway. The game is up at some point. Your summary is incorrect because I would NEVER SEEK TREATMENT in the first place. You have been deaf, not even listening to what I told you about the "treatment" you receive for COVID - none.


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## smokeyquartz

Wedrownik said:


> So to summarize your post you'd be fine paying more should you need specialized treatment after getting vaccine... Fair enough


I choose not to get the vaccine. If I experienced medical rape and it was forced on me, then I would press criminal charges because any touching without consent is considered an assault and battery under the law. That's why you are always made to sign a consent form before treatment.

I will never get the vaccine. I will take my chances. If I die, so be it.


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## stevekozak

Wedrownik said:


> So to summarize your post you'd be fine paying more should you need specialized treatment after getting vaccine... Fair enough


Well, we can see that taking the jab reduces reading comprehension at the least. What other symptoms to follow? Are you starting to feel a burning desire for other people's money that you did not earn? Are you starting to look around and say "Man, what we need here is more regulation.."? Are you waking up in a cold sweat worried that you have too much freedom? Keep an eye on it, Wedrownik, we don't need you voting Democrat before and after your demise.


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## Wedrownik

Lol ok... I am amused. So by your own admission you will not seek treatment so you will have no costs....

Again the bottom line is risk and mitigation. Kinda like in car insurance: you can carry a spare or not. If you do not you incur higher costs if you get a flat... or if you dont winterize your home.

Point was to discuss and see other people's point of view and you're getting adversarial....


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## smokeyquartz

Wedrownik said:


> Lol ok... I am amused. So by your own admission you will not seek treatment so you will have no costs....
> 
> Again the bottom line is risk and mitigation. Kinda like in car insurance: you can carry a spare or not. If you do not you incur higher costs if you get a flat... or if you dont winterize your home.
> 
> Point was to discuss and see other people's point of view and you're getting adversarial....


I'm amused that it's taken you this long to even comprehend my clearly stated point of view.


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## Wedrownik

Considering you missed the point of the thread and couldn't answer a simple question without telling a life story.... yeah... miracle I got your point at all ,)


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## smokeyquartz

@Wedrownik

There are courses to help you with reading comprehension. It will help you when you try to "see other people's point of view" as you said was your intent.


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## Wedrownik

smokeyquartz said:


> @Wedrownik
> 
> There are courses to help you with reading comprehension. It will help you when you try to "see other people's point of view" as you said was your intent.


Yours was the only problematic one &#128521; question that developed was simple... you took an adversarial approach from the getgo....

Anyways..... moving on....

Pfizer shot did not help me develop patience when dealing with.... some folks... didnt need a super power but that would have been nice &#128521;


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## smokeyquartz

@Wedrownik

My approach was only disparaging the medical community. And they earned it. My story about my dad was relevant to the topic and my decision-making process. That's why I shared it. You can disregard it or not. But if you want to "see other people's opinions" then you need to be open to hearing what they have to say and why they think that way. And they may have strong opinions that you don't like. It also took patience for me to repeat myself to you multiple times.

So, when you ask for opinions, be prepared to hear the ones that you don't agree with or never even thought of. That's the point.


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## Wedrownik

You keep missing the point. For all I care the reason could be cause you're afraid to be chipped.

Point was: assuming that the vaccination helps should the folks who refuse to get vaccinated have to pay extra should they need ICU or something like that for treatment.... you have personal reasons, fine.... not pertinent to the question at hand....


So on another note, i saw something that works in cold areas of the country. Hide in your mitten a touch enabled card, go to a grocery store to pay, rest your hand on the payment screen and as the payment is submitted, smile and announce : vaccination comes with extra benefits 😉


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## Maine-Marine

Chipper said:


> In my neck of the woods you never do what a friend suggests. That's the first red flag.


Hey chipper, watch this hold my beer............................lol


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## Wedrownik

Maine-Marine said:


> Hey chipper, watch this hold my beer............................lol


Beer? Isn't it - hold my mason jar?


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## bigwheel

Wedrownik said:


> So I will dust off my favourite saying: opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they all stink.
> 
> His seems to be of the following type: I'm going try and be relevant and go counter to everyone cause I'm not important anymore.... but that's my opinion (see my favourite saying above).
> 
> Anyways, not trying to convince anyone to get it or not get it (though I do have my opinion or those who are opposed to it as I lost more folks both close and distant to me in 2020 then probably in at least the last 25 years)
> 
> Anyways..... no headache, no soreness in the arm.... off go meet Morpheus.


The Warden and I have signed up to get the Moderna shot I think..but they say its weeks away after the more deserving folks get theirs. I dont want it but think it might be hard to get a job or other essential stuff without having one. Those gestapo Liberals are crazy


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## bigwheel

Denton said:


> I understand. I'm not sold, either. Not sold either way, so I'll not take the shot. I'll wait, watch and see. A year.


Keep Nebulizing that peroxide. 
https://drglennwilcox.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Nebulized-Hydrogen-Peroxide.pdf


----------



## inceptor

Wedrownik said:


> Beer? Isn't it - hold my mason jar?


I guess that depends on what part of the country you're from.


----------



## stevekozak

bigwheel said:


> The Warden and I have signed up to get the Moderna shot I think..but they say its weeks away after the more deserving folks get theirs. I dont want it but think it might be hard to get a job or other essential stuff without having one. Those gestapo Liberals are crazy


..........


----------



## Green Lilly

Wedrownik said:


> I totally understand that some folks choose not to get it. One thing that I'm wondering about is should: the folks that had the opportunity to take the shot and chose to skip it and got sick , be charged extra for their care since their own actions put them at the higher risks? Kind of like smokers get charged more for certain medical costs and for life insurance.
> 
> Not judging, but rather wondering since there is a huge financial impact in quite a few cases.


Are you advocating for charging people more in insurances etc that refuse the vaccine, like a penalty? Maybe I am not understanding the intent of your post and subsequent follow ups but it seems you are.

1. This "vaccine" is not fully approved. There is no long term data and it is approved for emergency use only.
2. Vaccine manufacturers are relieved of any and all liability for adverse reactions to this vaccine. They will share no burden of cost for the issues that arise from its use.
3. This vaccine has not been proven to prevent the transmission of COVID19. They hope that it will however there is no data that shows that it does. They have data that shows it reduces symptoms. That is straight from the vaccine manufacturers mouths. You can look it up if you don't believe me.
4. There have already been many reports of people having adverse reactions to the "vaccine", some are minor but some have died after receiving the shots.

So that being said and using your logic, one could argue that those that elect to take the vaccine are accepting higher risk and therefore should be charged extra on their insurances to account for this higher risk?

Nazi's were hung after the Nuremburg trials for forced medical experimentation. And that's exactly what this "vaccine" is, medical experimentation on a grand scale. Coercion is a slippery slope towards mandating (forced) of the same.

As I said previously, to each their own. If you choose to take the vaccine then I truly hope you suffer no adverse effects now or down the road. For those of us that do refuse, any coercion whether its financial or otherwise to take an unproven vaccine should be strictly frowned upon in the interest of preserving bodily autonomy.


----------



## Wedrownik

Green Lilly said:


> Are you advocating for charging people more in insurances etc that refuse the vaccine, like a penalty? Maybe I am not understanding the intent of your post and subsequent follow ups but it seems you are.


So let me restate my philosophical musings. Insurance is a business which makes certain assumptions, takes away some of the risk on a personal level by spreading the costs across a broad spectrum of people. The higher premium would not be really a penalty but rather acknowledgement that you are now in a higher "risk group". Look at car insurance: if you have a more expensive car, you pay a higher premium because the cost to fix it/replace it is higher. If you drive like an idiot and have whole bunch of reckless driving tickets, same.

So looking at that, if you choose not to get vaccine, everyone is fine with that, but what about potential higher costs for treatment should you get sick? Imagine this scenario: Jan 10 Papa Smurg is offered the vaccine. He states that he will not take it because he does not believe in it (frankly he suspects Gargamel has something to do with it). Fine.... his insurance stays the same. Come September 1 he gets sick. Ends up in the hospital, ends up on ventilator, ICU, treated for 2 months. Pulls out and is all good November 2nd. What now? Who pays the bill? All the folks who pay into the insurance? Under current rules, yes. Fine.... but is that fair to the folks who took the vaccine and have no issues? Or should he bear a higher cost because it was his choice not to take the vaccine?



> 1. This "vaccine" is not fully approved. There is no long term data and it is approved for emergency use only.
> 2. Vaccine manufacturers are relieved of any and all liability for adverse reactions to this vaccine. They will share no burden of cost for the issues that arise from its use.
> 3. This vaccine has not been proven to prevent the transmission of COVID19. They hope that it will however there is no data that shows that it does. They have data that shows it reduces symptoms. That is straight from the vaccine manufacturers mouths. You can look it up if you don't believe me.


I hear you, but since this is philosophical discussion, forget Covid. Polio? Shingles? Pick a vaccine that has been out there for a long time and tell me how should the spread of the costs be calculated?



> 4. There have already been many reports of people having adverse reactions to the "vaccine", some are minor but some have died after receiving the shots.


Two points: first one: correlation is not causation. Look at how many people have issues on a daily basis. The fact that they report them after taking the vaccine does not mean that they are related (does not exclude the causation either, but at this point investigation needs to be conducted to determine if they are having adverse effects or not and at what level).
I will admit again (I think I stated this already someplace up towards the beginning). I am concerned with potential long term effects as well - will there be any? Will we find out?



> So that being said and using your logic, one could argue that those that elect to take the vaccine are accepting higher risk and therefore should be charged extra on their insurances to account for this higher risk?


To a degree this could be a valid point except at this point in time the costs are higher on the side of the folks who went in with sever cases of Covid.



> Nazi's were hung after the Nuremburg trials for forced medical experimentation. And that's exactly what this "vaccine" is, medical experimentation on a grand scale. Coercion is a slippery slope towards mandating (forced) of the same.


of for F's sake... I am from a country that suffered from Nazi's power trips.... I lost a grandfather to Nazis. Do not talk about what you do not understand. Here noone took a gun to your head and said: needle or death. Hell, last time I checked you don't even have to have insurance anymore (even under Obama you didn't - you could have chosen to pay the penalty which IIRC was lower then the lowest premiums annually anyways). So do not talk coercion and forced medical experimentation because at this points, all the points that you made above that had merit, just lost out in my mind....



> As I said previously, to each their own. If you choose to take the vaccine then I truly hope you suffer no adverse effects now or down the road. For those of us that do refuse, any coercion whether its financial or otherwise to take an unproven vaccine should be strictly frowned upon in the interest of preserving bodily autonomy.


The most amusing part to me is that the folks that talk about being against vaccine and coercion are those who promote independence, self reliance, being against taxes, government control and the like..... but on the other hand, expect the government/big companies to treat them like everyone else..... I will be blunt, that's a bit of a hypocritical approach....

Anyways, I'm over a week after my second shot and sadly I still did not gain the secret power of being able to guess lotto numbers  I'm highly dissapointed because of that 

Anyways, let me give another example: couple years back I had an insurance through my employer (basic health) which had a "program" that went something like this: if I went for a physical I would get at the end of the year $X into my Health spending account that I could use to pay for medication or towards my deductible. Same went for my wife and my daughter. Imagine if the insurance offered the same if you chose to take the vaccine because they see it from financial standpoint a risk/benefit calculation: if you take the vaccine, you could possibly save them $50K (I'm picking a number from thin air here). So they figure they will throw you a bone and say "$500 towards health savings account if you take the vaccination". Would you be against that???

Now take this a step further: let's say a certain percentage of the population did not take the vaccination and their costs for medical treatment are higher so as a result come January 1st when new premiums go into effect, everyone's costs for health insurance goes up. Folks who took the vaccination though got the payment towards their health savings account because insurances costs towards their treatments are lower. Would you be OK with that? Again, it's a cost/benefit to a business.

So how is flipping this the other way around and again from financial standpoint (keep in mind, insurance company is just that - a money generating company) looks at the data they have at hand and makes a calculation and states: because you didn't take the vaccine you are at a higher financial risk group for us: you have three in front of you. You can withdraw from coverage, you can pay higher premiums or you can pay same premiums but certain treatment will be excluded.

The issue of preexisting conditions under Obama care was problematic. I hope I'm summarizing this correctly, but if you had no insurance and developed a condition, you couldn't get on insurance and then expect the insurance company to take care of it for you. You took the risk of not having insurance and only want the "cost sharing" benefit when it's convenient for you. I don't know about anyone else but from pre Obama years to now my insurance went up significantly and my coverage dropped as to what's included for the sheer fact that now EVERYONE has to be covered for everything... including birth control (I'm still trying to figure out how this is a health issue in general public - in some cases, yes - which it was already covered with proper diagnosis, but now anyone and everyone that's a woman gets it.... I'm waiting for transgender folks to ask to have the pill covered and getting approval for it just cause they want to feel like a woman..... but I really digress here).

So let me take it even further - what would you say if an insurance company got approval to get started with some strict rules: you have to get annual exams, have to follow some health regimen (let's say that they want you to exercise regularly or maybe get a certain number of steps on a weekly or monthly basis) and then they offered lower premiums to their members because they have lower payout costs? If those folks got removed from the general insurers pool the premiums for the rest would go up.... is that coercion? Again it's just a business decision...

I think I should finish this post for the moment... I'm bored... waiting for windows updates to go through and I'm half eaves dropping on my daughters school from the other room....


----------



## inceptor

Wedrownik said:


> You keep missing the point. For all I care the reason could be cause you're afraid to be chipped.
> 
> Point was: assuming that the vaccination helps should the folks who refuse to get vaccinated have to pay extra should they need ICU or something like that for treatment.... you have personal reasons, fine.... not pertinent to the question at hand....
> 
> So on another note, i saw something that works in cold areas of the country. Hide in your mitten a touch enabled card, go to a grocery store to pay, rest your hand on the payment screen and as the payment is submitted, smile and announce : vaccination comes with extra benefits &#128521;


Good to know that your hero's are Gates and Fauci. You may work for the pharmaceutical industry, who knows. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. Do what the govt tells you to do and you'll be in great shape with them.

There is very little data on the vaccine. The last report I read is that the majority of healthcare professionals won't take the vaccine because there is very little data on it.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-vaccine-health-workers-676e03a99badfd5ce3a6cfafe383f6af

I have a couple of friends who are doctors and they refuse the vaccine.

After Trump lost the election the AMA reversed their stance on HCQ. Fortunately for big pharma, somehow the plant that made the ingredients for HCQ was blown up.

https://lenbilen.com/2020/12/14/ame...n-of-hydroxychloroquine-to-covid-19-patients/

India and other countries are having great success with an Ivermectin protocol. But Gates and Fauci along with big pharma are against it. So it's best to avoid that too. Yup, even though there is little known data on the vaccine, it's better to just do what you're told.


----------



## hawgrider

Wedrownik said:


> So let me restate my philosophical musings. Insurance is a business which makes certain assumptions, takes away some of the risk on a personal level by spreading the costs across a broad spectrum of people. The higher premium would not be really a penalty but rather acknowledgement that you are now in a higher "risk group". Look at car insurance: if you have a more expensive car, you pay a higher premium because the cost to fix it/replace it is higher. If you drive like an idiot and have whole bunch of reckless driving tickets, same.
> 
> So looking at that, if you choose not to get vaccine, everyone is fine with that, but what about potential higher costs for treatment should you get sick? Imagine this scenario: Jan 10 Papa Smurg is offered the vaccine. He states that he will not take it because he does not believe in it (frankly he suspects Gargamel has something to do with it). Fine.... his insurance stays the same. Come September 1 he gets sick. Ends up in the hospital, ends up on ventilator, ICU, treated for 2 months. Pulls out and is all good November 2nd. What now? Who pays the bill? All the folks who pay into the insurance? Under current rules, yes. Fine.... but is that fair to the folks who took the vaccine and have no issues? Or should he bear a higher cost because it was his choice not to take the vaccine?
> 
> I hear you, but since this is philosophical discussion, forget Covid. Polio? Shingles? Pick a vaccine that has been out there for a long time and tell me how should the spread of the costs be calculated?
> 
> Two points: first one: correlation is not causation. Look at how many people have issues on a daily basis. The fact that they report them after taking the vaccine does not mean that they are related (does not exclude the causation either, but at this point investigation needs to be conducted to determine if they are having adverse effects or not and at what level).
> I will admit again (I think I stated this already someplace up towards the beginning). I am concerned with potential long term effects as well - will there be any? Will we find out?
> 
> To a degree this could be a valid point except at this point in time the costs are higher on the side of the folks who went in with sever cases of Covid.
> 
> of for F's sake... I am from a country that suffered from Nazi's power trips.... I lost a grandfather to Nazis. Do not talk about what you do not understand. Here noone took a gun to your head and said: needle or death. Hell, last time I checked you don't even have to have insurance anymore (even under Obama you didn't - you could have chosen to pay the penalty which IIRC was lower then the lowest premiums annually anyways). So do not talk coercion and forced medical experimentation because at this points, all the points that you made above that had merit, just lost out in my mind....
> 
> The most amusing part to me is that the folks that talk about being against vaccine and coercion are those who promote independence, self reliance, being against taxes, government control and the like..... but on the other hand, expect the government/big companies to treat them like everyone else..... I will be blunt, that's a bit of a hypocritical approach....
> 
> Anyways, I'm over a week after my second shot and sadly I still did not gain the secret power of being able to guess lotto numbers  I'm highly dissapointed because of that
> 
> Anyways, let me give another example: couple years back I had an insurance through my employer (basic health) which had a "program" that went something like this: if I went for a physical I would get at the end of the year $X into my Health spending account that I could use to pay for medication or towards my deductible. Same went for my wife and my daughter. Imagine if the insurance offered the same if you chose to take the vaccine because they see it from financial standpoint a risk/benefit calculation: if you take the vaccine, you could possibly save them $50K (I'm picking a number from thin air here). So they figure they will throw you a bone and say "$500 towards health savings account if you take the vaccination". Would you be against that???
> 
> Now take this a step further: let's say a certain percentage of the population did not take the vaccination and their costs for medical treatment are higher so as a result come January 1st when new premiums go into effect, everyone's costs for health insurance goes up. Folks who took the vaccination though got the payment towards their health savings account because insurances costs towards their treatments are lower. Would you be OK with that? Again, it's a cost/benefit to a business.
> 
> So how is flipping this the other way around and again from financial standpoint (keep in mind, insurance company is just that - a money generating company) looks at the data they have at hand and makes a calculation and states: because you didn't take the vaccine you are at a higher financial risk group for us: you have three in front of you. You can withdraw from coverage, you can pay higher premiums or you can pay same premiums but certain treatment will be excluded.
> 
> The issue of preexisting conditions under Obama care was problematic. I hope I'm summarizing this correctly, but if you had no insurance and developed a condition, you couldn't get on insurance and then expect the insurance company to take care of it for you. You took the risk of not having insurance and only want the "cost sharing" benefit when it's convenient for you. I don't know about anyone else but from pre Obama years to now my insurance went up significantly and my coverage dropped as to what's included for the sheer fact that now EVERYONE has to be covered for everything... including birth control (I'm still trying to figure out how this is a health issue in general public - in some cases, yes - which it was already covered with proper diagnosis, but now anyone and everyone that's a woman gets it.... I'm waiting for transgender folks to ask to have the pill covered and getting approval for it just cause they want to feel like a woman..... but I really digress here).
> 
> So let me take it even further - what would you say if an insurance company got approval to get started with some strict rules: you have to get annual exams, have to follow some health regimen (let's say that they want you to exercise regularly or maybe get a certain number of steps on a weekly or monthly basis) and then they offered lower premiums to their members because they have lower payout costs? If those folks got removed from the general insurers pool the premiums for the rest would go up.... is that coercion? Again it's just a business decision...
> 
> I think I should finish this post for the moment... I'm bored... waiting for windows updates to go through and I'm half eaves dropping on my daughters school from the other room....


After all that typing you must be thirsty. Here have some more koolaid.


----------



## Wedrownik

inceptor said:


> Good to know that your hero's are Gates and Fauci. You may work for the pharmaceutical industry, who knows. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. Do what the govt tells you to do and you'll be in great shape with them.
> 
> There is very little data on the vaccine. The last report I read is that the majority of healthcare professionals won't take the vaccine because there is very little data on it.
> 
> https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-vaccine-health-workers-676e03a99badfd5ce3a6cfafe383f6af
> 
> I have a couple of friends who are doctors and they refuse the vaccine.
> 
> After Trump lost the election the AMA reversed their stance on HCQ. Fortunately for big pharma, somehow the plant that made the ingredients for HCQ was blown up.
> 
> https://lenbilen.com/2020/12/14/ame...n-of-hydroxychloroquine-to-covid-19-patients/
> 
> India and other countries are having great success with an Ivermectin protocol. But Gates and Fauci along with big pharma are against it. So it's best to avoid that too. Yup, even though there is little known data on the vaccine, it's better to just do what you're told.


And you are missing my point - you made whole bunch of assumptions about me and threw them out there....

Again - I'm not saying that anyone should be forced to get the shot. Far from it. I raised a financial/philosophical point and all the arguments I saw were emotional ones where folks state: (I'm paraphrasing) 
1. Covid vaccine is evil and I will not take it
2. I want the government to regulate the cost of insurance so that it's low for me no matter what (i.e. you want what Obamacare promised but didn't deliver).


----------



## Wedrownik

hawgrider said:


> After all that typing you must be thirsty. Here have some more koolaid.


Wow... such a well versed response. I bow before your eloquence and critical thinking skills


----------



## Sasquatch

Wedrownik said:


> And you are missing my point - you made whole bunch of assumptions about me and threw them out there....
> 
> Again - I'm not saying that anyone should be forced to get the shot. Far from it. I raised a financial/philosophical point and all the arguments I saw were emotional ones where folks state: (I'm paraphrasing)
> 1. Covid vaccine is evil and I will not take it
> 2. I want the government to regulate the cost of insurance so that it's low for me no matter what (i.e. you want what Obamacare promised but didn't deliver).


Philosophical questions are fine but we dont live in a country governed by philosophy.

The true constitution following basically boils down to you having the god given Right to do whatever you want as long as it is not infringing on another's persons Rights.

In a court of law you have to prove damages. Try to prove I gave you Covid. Cant be done. It is impossible. That said I am not philosophically or financially obligated to get a vaccine. Or wear a mask for that matter.

So there you go, an arguement that isnt emotional.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Wedrownik

Sasquatch said:


> Philosophical questions are fine but we dont live in a country governed by philosophy.
> 
> The true constitution following basically boils down to you having the god given Right to do whatever you want as long as it is not infringing on another's persons Rights.
> 
> In a court of law you have to prove damages. Try to prove I gave you Covid. Cant be done. It is impossible. That said I am not philosophically or financially obligated to get a vaccine. Or wear a mask for that matter.
> 
> So there you go, an arguement that isnt emotional.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Good point, but to play devils advocate - free country and free enterprise so from that same perspective - the companies should have the right to do whatever is in their best financial interests. They have to have the right to choose whatever criteria to determine the contribution cost, right?

It's a very complicated issue...


----------



## inceptor

Wedrownik said:


> And you are missing my point - you made whole bunch of assumptions about me and threw them out there....
> 
> Again - I'm not saying that anyone should be forced to get the shot. Far from it. I raised a financial/philosophical point and all the arguments I saw were emotional ones where folks state: (I'm paraphrasing)
> 1. Covid vaccine is evil and I will not take it
> 2. I want the government to regulate the cost of insurance so that it's low for me no matter what (i.e. you want what Obamacare promised but didn't deliver).


I made no assumptions. I went by what you've stated.

1. I never said the vaccine was evil. I said there is no data on the effectiveness or side effects or other reactions to it. You said I should be penalized for not buying into the lack of information. I prefer to make my decisions on fact, not hearsay.

2. Insurance used to be reasonable. Then the government got involve and the costs went through the roof. But then, politicians are all knowing so you better listen to them. After all, career politicians make roughly $175k per year and they retire multi-millionaires so they must pretty much be right.


----------



## hawgrider

Wedrownik said:


> Wow... such a well versed response. I bow before your eloquence and critical thinking skills


I get right to the point no sense in boring the audience with long winded drivel.

You're welcome for the survival tip on PF I'll send you the bill.


----------



## Wedrownik

inceptor said:


> I made no assumptions. I went by what you've stated.
> 
> 1. I never said the vaccine was evil. I said there is no data on the effectiveness or side effects or other reactions to it. You said I should be penalized for not buying into the lack of information. I prefer to make my decisions on fact, not hearsay.
> 
> 2. Insurance used to be reasonable. Then the government got involve and the costs went through the roof. But then, politicians are all knowing so you better listen to them. After all, career politicians make roughly $175k per year and they retire multi-millionaires so they must pretty much be right.


The #1 point was general - did not apply to only you, but to quite a few stated opinions in this thread.

Regarding #2 I'm with you on this. I started with my current company back in 2011 and the insurance rates were amazing. The company was self insured: we are a sizeable organization, had an investment fund that the contributions went into and the medical plans were administered by BCBS. The insurance fund was doing good, making money each year and the coverage was amazing. Then things started going down hill.... in 2012 they changed the plans a bit and they were still good, though not as good as in 2011.

Then ObamaCare came and even though we were self insured the company had to get in line with coverage requirements by Obamacare (the issue of free contraceptives for women was just one of the issues) and the costs went up for all because of the new rules. Also to be on the "safe side" not to miss what and how needs to be administered the coverage dropped in other areas as to get in line with the promoted "standard". Again noone was making money out of it as this was an investment fund that was specifically for insurance and it was still doing good each year. Couple years later, self insurance idea got dropped and we went to the general exchanges because our CEO met with Obama and well..... you can figure things out from there....

I think my costs are about 5 times higher now with about half the coverage. My deductible is up, I don't have as much covered as before.... So now the question at hand is how will the government regulate the Covid coverage. I mean we already see hospitals, clinics and doctors abusing the system as you could come in as roadkill and croak on the table but should you test positive for Covid you're likely to have Covid listed as cause of death. What will this do to costs and premiums in the near future? Government subsidies will end at some point as that's not an endless well plus we are the ones that fund that well as well....

So again, treat this as philosophical musing over a pint of beer or couple drams of whiskey in a bar someplace with no cell phone coverage where you can kick back, BS with friends and talk about everything and anything.

And it all started when I asked someone who said "I will not get pricked" whether they think they should pay extra should they need care as a result of not getting pricked. That was a simple question to a simple statement which turned very much ideological


----------



## Green Lilly

Wedrownik said:


> So let me restate my philosophical musings. Insurance is a business which makes certain assumptions, takes away some of the risk on a personal level by spreading the costs across a broad spectrum of people. The higher premium would not be really a penalty but rather acknowledgement that you are now in a higher "risk group". Look at car insurance: if you have a more expensive car, you pay a higher premium because the cost to fix it/replace it is higher. If you drive like an idiot and have whole bunch of reckless driving tickets, same.
> 
> So looking at that, if you choose not to get vaccine, everyone is fine with that, but what about potential higher costs for treatment should you get sick? Imagine this scenario: Jan 10 Papa Smurg is offered the vaccine. He states that he will not take it because he does not believe in it (frankly he suspects Gargamel has something to do with it). Fine.... his insurance stays the same. Come September 1 he gets sick. Ends up in the hospital, ends up on ventilator, ICU, treated for 2 months. Pulls out and is all good November 2nd. What now? Who pays the bill? All the folks who pay into the insurance? Under current rules, yes. Fine.... but is that fair to the folks who took the vaccine and have no issues? Or should he bear a higher cost because it was his choice not to take the vaccine?
> 
> I hear you, but since this is philosophical discussion, forget Covid. Polio? Shingles? Pick a vaccine that has been out there for a long time and tell me how should the spread of the costs be calculated?
> 
> Two points: first one: correlation is not causation. Look at how many people have issues on a daily basis. The fact that they report them after taking the vaccine does not mean that they are related (does not exclude the causation either, but at this point investigation needs to be conducted to determine if they are having adverse effects or not and at what level).
> I will admit again (I think I stated this already someplace up towards the beginning). I am concerned with potential long term effects as well - will there be any? Will we find out?
> 
> To a degree this could be a valid point except at this point in time the costs are higher on the side of the folks who went in with sever cases of Covid.
> 
> of for F's sake... I am from a country that suffered from Nazi's power trips.... I lost a grandfather to Nazis. Do not talk about what you do not understand. Here noone took a gun to your head and said: needle or death. Hell, last time I checked you don't even have to have insurance anymore (even under Obama you didn't - you could have chosen to pay the penalty which IIRC was lower then the lowest premiums annually anyways). So do not talk coercion and forced medical experimentation because at this points, all the points that you made above that had merit, just lost out in my mind....
> 
> The most amusing part to me is that the folks that talk about being against vaccine and coercion are those who promote independence, self reliance, being against taxes, government control and the like..... but on the other hand, expect the government/big companies to treat them like everyone else..... I will be blunt, that's a bit of a hypocritical approach....
> 
> Anyways, I'm over a week after my second shot and sadly I still did not gain the secret power of being able to guess lotto numbers  I'm highly dissapointed because of that
> 
> Anyways, let me give another example: couple years back I had an insurance through my employer (basic health) which had a "program" that went something like this: if I went for a physical I would get at the end of the year $X into my Health spending account that I could use to pay for medication or towards my deductible. Same went for my wife and my daughter. Imagine if the insurance offered the same if you chose to take the vaccine because they see it from financial standpoint a risk/benefit calculation: if you take the vaccine, you could possibly save them $50K (I'm picking a number from thin air here). So they figure they will throw you a bone and say "$500 towards health savings account if you take the vaccination". Would you be against that???
> 
> Now take this a step further: let's say a certain percentage of the population did not take the vaccination and their costs for medical treatment are higher so as a result come January 1st when new premiums go into effect, everyone's costs for health insurance goes up. Folks who took the vaccination though got the payment towards their health savings account because insurances costs towards their treatments are lower. Would you be OK with that? Again, it's a cost/benefit to a business.
> 
> So how is flipping this the other way around and again from financial standpoint (keep in mind, insurance company is just that - a money generating company) looks at the data they have at hand and makes a calculation and states: because you didn't take the vaccine you are at a higher financial risk group for us: you have three in front of you. You can withdraw from coverage, you can pay higher premiums or you can pay same premiums but certain treatment will be excluded.
> 
> The issue of preexisting conditions under Obama care was problematic. I hope I'm summarizing this correctly, but if you had no insurance and developed a condition, you couldn't get on insurance and then expect the insurance company to take care of it for you. You took the risk of not having insurance and only want the "cost sharing" benefit when it's convenient for you. I don't know about anyone else but from pre Obama years to now my insurance went up significantly and my coverage dropped as to what's included for the sheer fact that now EVERYONE has to be covered for everything... including birth control (I'm still trying to figure out how this is a health issue in general public - in some cases, yes - which it was already covered with proper diagnosis, but now anyone and everyone that's a woman gets it.... I'm waiting for transgender folks to ask to have the pill covered and getting approval for it just cause they want to feel like a woman..... but I really digress here).
> 
> So let me take it even further - what would you say if an insurance company got approval to get started with some strict rules: you have to get annual exams, have to follow some health regimen (let's say that they want you to exercise regularly or maybe get a certain number of steps on a weekly or monthly basis) and then they offered lower premiums to their members because they have lower payout costs? If those folks got removed from the general insurers pool the premiums for the rest would go up.... is that coercion? Again it's just a business decision...
> 
> I think I should finish this post for the moment... I'm bored... waiting for windows updates to go through and I'm half eaves dropping on my daughters school from the other room....


In regards to insurance, no I do not believe those that elect not to take the vaccine should be charged higher premiums. Period. There are effective treatments out there that if allowed to be given would significantly reduce the effects of COVID19. That point aside, I do not believe anyone should be penalized by refusing to take the vaccine for the reasons I listed above. It is not fully tested and approved, there is no available recourse should a person become injured by the vaccine (COVID19 vaccine injury is not currently allowed to be adjudicated through the VAERS courts) and it is not even proven to stop the transmission of the virus. You are comparing oranges to apples by trying to compare COVID19 vaccine to polio. One has absolutely no long term data by which to make an informed decision and the others have reams of it.

Agree correlation does not necessarily equal causation however until it can be proved with transparent verifiable data that it is not, it very well could be the cause. You ask a good question, would they even tell us if they do find it to the be the cause? I can give you 10's of billions of reasons why it would be unlikely that the black and white truth will come out if it does.

Regarding the Nuremburg point, I am sorry to hear about your grandfather. Please accept my condolences. I can see where that would be an emotional topic and because of that you you seem to have missed my point. You can find it in my last sentence of that portion if you would like to go back and re-read. I am not saying that anyone is out there with a gun right at this very second forcing people to take the vaccine. Just like the Nazi's didn't come out on day one and do the same. Reference the slippery slope comment. If you think this Country couldn't get to the point where individual companies, airlines, school systems, healthcare, states and possibly even the federal level wouldn't get to the point where they mandate the vaccine you haven't been paying attention. There are already discussions right now in all of those areas and more about doing just that.


----------



## Wedrownik

Green Lilly said:


> In regards to insurance, no I do not believe those that elect not to take the vaccine should be charged higher premiums. Period. There are effective treatments out there that if allowed to be given would significantly reduce the effects of COVID19. That point aside, I do not believe anyone should be penalized by refusing to take the vaccine for the reasons I listed above. It is not fully tested and approved, there is no available recourse should a person become injured by the vaccine (COVID19 vaccine injury is not currently allowed to be adjudicated through the VAERS courts) and it is not even proven to stop the transmission of the virus. You are comparing oranges to apples by trying to compare COVID19 vaccine to polio. One has absolutely no long term data by which to make an informed decision and the others have reams of it.
> 
> Agree correlation does not necessarily equal causation however until it can be proved with transparent verifiable data that it is not, it very well could be the cause. You ask a good question, would they even tell us if they do find it to the be the cause? I can give you 10's of billions of reasons why it would be unlikely that the black and white truth will come out if it does.
> 
> Regarding the Nuremburg point, I am sorry to hear about your grandfather. Please accept my condolences. I can see where that would be an emotional topic and because of that you you seem to have missed my point. You can find it in my last sentence of that portion if you would like to go back and re-read. I am not saying that anyone is out there with a gun right at this very second forcing people to take the vaccine. Just like the Nazi's didn't come out on day one and do the same. Reference the slippery slope comment. If you think this Country couldn't get to the point where individual companies, airlines, school systems, healthcare, states and possibly even the federal level wouldn't get to the point where they mandate the vaccine you haven't been paying attention. There are already discussions right now in all of those areas and more about doing just that.


Fair enough. So for curiosity's sake - do you think that should you not get Polio vaccine because you're anti vaccination, and end up with Polio should your treatment costs not be covered?

Now regarding the companies mandating vaccination - couple posts above a statement was made about freedoms. A company has a freedom to do as they see fit and mitigate risks as they see them. Why do you think they should be forced by the government to do or not do something when at the same point you're advocating that noone can restrict your freedoms and mandate for you to do or not do something?

Anyways, thanks for your words regarding my Grandfather. My issue is that Nazis and their acts are being brought up so often as an excuse to act or not act in contexts that do not apply. You said comparing Covid and Polio vaccine is like comparing apples and oranges.... well, bringing up Nazi's experimentation in this context is like comparing apples to turnips


----------



## Green Lilly

Wedrownik said:


> Fair enough. So for curiosity's sake - do you think that should you not get Polio vaccine because you're anti vaccination, and end up with Polio should your treatment costs not be covered?
> 
> Now regarding the companies mandating vaccination - couple posts above a statement was made about freedoms. A company has a freedom to do as they see fit and mitigate risks as they see them. Why do you think they should be forced by the government to do or not do something when at the same point you're advocating that noone can restrict your freedoms and mandate for you to do or not do something?
> 
> Anyways, thanks for your words regarding my Grandfather. My issue is that Nazis and their acts are being brought up so often as an excuse to act or not act in contexts that do not apply. You said comparing Covid and Polio vaccine is like comparing apples and oranges.... well, bringing up Nazi's experimentation in this context is like comparing apples to turnips


Arrgh...I wrote out this well thought out post and then I guess I timed out and it ate it when I relogged in.

In short, I don't think any medical treatment decision should be mandated by private or public entities. All medical treatments come with some degree of risk and I think the individual should be able to determine what their risk tolerance is without being discriminated against, financially or otherwise.

That is specific to medical treatments. That doesn't mean that I am against personal responsibility. If you pick up a bad habit like smoking then yes, I think insurance premiums should be allowed to be higher to compensate.

I brought up the Nazi comparison because it is the most well known and associated with forced medical experimentation. I believe that if these vaccines are mandated, in any capacity, that it would be considered forced medical experimentation because of the current status of the vaccine. We can also use the CIA. Not as well known but also into forced medical experimentation, and honestly probably still is.


----------



## Sasquatch

Wedrownik said:


> Good point, but to play devils advocate - free country and free enterprise so from that same perspective - the companies should have the right to do whatever is in their best financial interests. They have to have the right to choose whatever criteria to determine the contribution cost, right?
> 
> It's a very complicated issue...


Wait, I thought we were discussing whether people should get the shot. But yes, I believe in free enterprise and a company should do what is in their best interest. Unless, of course, that infringes on my rights.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Wedrownik

Green Lilly said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough. So for curiosity's sake - do you think that should you not get Polio vaccine because you're anti vaccination, and end up with Polio should your treatment costs not be covered?
> 
> Now regarding the companies mandating vaccination - couple posts above a statement was made about freedoms. A company has a freedom to do as they see fit and mitigate risks as they see them. Why do you think they should be forced by the government to do or not do something when at the same point you're advocating that noone can restrict your freedoms and mandate for you to do or not do something?
> 
> Anyways, thanks for your words regarding my Grandfather. My issue is that Nazis and their acts are being brought up so often as an excuse to act or not act in contexts that do not apply. You said comparing Covid and Polio vaccine is like comparing apples and oranges.... well, bringing up Nazi's experimentation in this context is like comparing apples to turnips
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arrgh...I wrote out this well thought out post and then I guess I timed out and it ate it when I relogged in.
> 
> In short, I don't think any medical treatment decision should be mandated by private or public entities. All medical treatments come with some degree of risk and I think the individual should be able to determine what their risk tolerance is without being discriminated against, financially or otherwise.
> 
> That is specific to medical treatments. That doesn't mean that I am against personal responsibility. If you pick up a bad habit like smoking then yes, I think insurance premiums should be allowed to be higher to compensate.
> 
> I brought up the Nazi comparison because it is the most well known and associated with forced medical experimentation. I believe that if these vaccines are mandated, in any capacity, that it would be considered forced medical experimentation because of the current status of the vaccine. We can also use the CIA. Not as well known but also into forced medical experimentation, and honestly probably still is.
Click to expand...

But noone is forcing you: you can choose not to get insurance or not pay premiums. By definition insurance is not a right it is a benefit.

I'm not saying I am disagreeing with you... but I think your premise here is a bit off: free business, free enterprise and a benefit. Why cant they choose to mandate it?


----------



## inceptor

Wedrownik said:


> And it all started when I asked someone who said "I will not get pricked" whether they think they should pay extra should they need care as a result of not getting pricked. That was a simple question to a simple statement which turned very much ideological


The govt will do whatever they deem necessary. The goal now is to get the sheep following the new dear leader, oops I mean new shepherd.

Me, I'm not blindly accepting the current narrative as to the vaccine. If it's so good and effective, why did big pharma get exempted from being sued? We have become a litigious society and can sue because you got stupid and it's someone else's fault. Like the warning label, do not use hairdryer in the bathtub. DUH! Lawsuits also keep businesses fairly in line so really stupid things have consequences. So big pharma gets a pass on whatever happens because of the vaccine.


----------



## 2020 Convert

I got mine today. I wasn’t too worried about getting microchipped. They have 5 doses in each bottle and the chances of every dose getting a microchip are pretty small.

No side effects yet. On the way home I stopped at the store and got a craving for Impossible Meat. Funny, I had never had it before. Then I went to the produce department and bought some kale (and I don’t even like kale). 

Back in the car, I had to switch the radio from Rush but NPR was a nice change. They made Biden sound like a nice intelligent guy.

I was thinking maybe I should trade the old diesel truck in and getting something efficient like an all electric Prius. 

But really, there were no side effects at all.


----------



## hawgrider

2020 Convert said:


> I got mine today. I wasn't too worried about getting microchipped. They have 5 doses in each bottle and the chances of every dose getting a microchip are pretty small.
> 
> No side effects yet. On the way home I stopped at the store and got a craving for Impossible Meat. Funny, I had never had it before. Then I went to the produce department and bought some kale (and I don't even like kale).
> 
> Back in the car, I had to switch the radio from Rush but NPR was a nice change. They made Biden sound like a nice intelligent guy.
> 
> I was thinking maybe I should trade the old diesel truck in and getting something efficient like an all electric Prius.
> 
> But really, there were no side effects at all.


Ok that's kinda funny right there! :vs_lol:


----------



## Wedrownik

inceptor said:


> The govt will do whatever they deem necessary. The goal now is to get the sheep following the new dear leader, oops I mean new shepherd.
> 
> Me, I'm not blindly accepting the current narrative as to the vaccine. If it's so good and effective, why did big pharma get exempted from being sued? We have become a litigious society and can sue because you got stupid and it's someone else's fault. Like the warning label, do not use hairdryer in the bathtub. DUH! Lawsuits also keep businesses fairly in line so really stupid things have consequences. So big pharma gets a pass on whatever happens because of the vaccine.


You can't use the protection from lawsuits premise as an argument because a lot of areas enjoy the protection from lawsuits and that does not make them "problematic".

I agree with your statement that the court system is what allows you to keep things up the up and up to an extent. Problem is that the court system has been misused and abused significantly in recent years as you have said just now.... hell, there was a woman that sued Nutella for making the statement "part of a healthy breakfast" cause she listened to that part only, fed her kid Nutella and the kid got fat... somehow this was Nutella's problem.


----------



## Wedrownik

2020 Convert said:


> I got mine today. I wasn't too worried about getting microchipped. They have 5 doses in each bottle and the chances of every dose getting a microchip are pretty small.
> 
> No side effects yet. On the way home I stopped at the store and got a craving for Impossible Meat. Funny, I had never had it before. Then I went to the produce department and bought some kale (and I don't even like kale).
> 
> Back in the car, I had to switch the radio from Rush but NPR was a nice change. They made Biden sound like a nice intelligent guy.
> 
> I was thinking maybe I should trade the old diesel truck in and getting something efficient like an all electric Prius.
> 
> But really, there were no side effects at all.


My wife know the second I bring meatless meat home to take me directly to hospital and have me checked out head to toe  She does try the experimental food stuff from time to time but I'm a meat and potatoes kinda guy.... hell, I have bacon for breakfast almost every day (thank god for good genetics when it comes to cholesterol  )


----------



## 1skrewsloose

If there was a contraceptive vaccine, but after taking it you could still get pregnant,.......and you still had to wear a condom, would you take it?

Asking for a friend.


----------



## 2020 Convert

Wedrownik said:


> My wife know the second I bring meatless meat home to take me directly to hospital and have me checked out head to toe  She does try the experimental food stuff from time to time but I'm a meat and potatoes kinda guy.... hell, I have bacon for breakfast almost every day (thank god for good genetics when it comes to cholesterol  )


Glad you liked it. Most people don't appreciate my satire. I usually get called a sarcastic SOB.


----------



## Wedrownik

1skrewsloose said:


> If there was a contraceptive vaccine, but after taking it you could still get pregnant,.......and you still had to wear a condom, would you take it?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


There are no absolutes.... I believe that there were successful vasectomies which have reversed themselves... so your argument is missing the point 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar... possible for,the vasectomy to reverse itself.


----------



## Wedrownik

2020 Convert said:


> Glad you liked it. Most people don't appreciate my satire. I usually get called a sarcastic SOB.


If it was cold enough here to wear gloves I'd have my touch card hidden in the glove, go to store and then just touch the payment terminal and when payment gets accepted I'd smile and say: vaccine was so worth it


----------



## 1skrewsloose

Wedrownik said:


> There are no absolutes.... I believe that there were successful vasectomies which have reversed themselves... so your argument is missing the point
> 
> https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar... possible for,the vasectomy to reverse itself.


I can explain something to you, but I can't make you understand it.


----------



## Wedrownik

1skrewsloose said:


> I can explain something to you, but I can't make you understand it.


I could say the same: not all vaccines work the same way. This one has a different mechanism. I'm not a chemist, virusologist or some other ist so I don't have the pretty words to dress it up for you to comprehend it..... All I'll say is that you're looking at it from a limited point of view without understanding the variety of vaccine mechanisms..... It's kinda like with power plants - you have nuclear, solar, hydro, dino sourced and so on..... You can't always explain one in terms of other and you can't say that one does not work because it does not use the same mechanism as the other one....


----------



## jasonv

I got my second dose of the modern vaccine today at the VA. So far I still feel ok.


----------



## Mrs. Spork

I will mitigate my risk by taking smart, common sense preventative measures, ones besides an unproven new vaccine. Each person knows their own body best and for me personally I'd have a higher risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccine than actually getting the 'rona. 

If I lived in the heart of a huge city, exposed to large numbers of random people daily I'd maaaaaybe reasses the risk factors. For all we know of this vaccine it could cause sterilization, birth defects, autoimmune disorders, freaky cancerous pustules.... 

There is inherent risk in every decision made. It would - in my humble opinion - be ridiculous to charge for choices based on possible risk. 

Sent from my LM-G850 using Tapatalk


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## KollinYang

dont know.. i think that vaccine is uselles, cause the virus mutates


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## Wedrownik

So far Pfizer and Moderna are handling current mutations. Astra Zeneca works in the British one but is coming up short against the South African one.


----------



## stevekozak

Wedrownik said:


> So far Pfizer and Moderna are handling current mutations. Astra Zeneca works in the British one but is coming up short against the South African one.


Handling them how? Preventing people from getting those mutated viruses or what? Serious question.


----------



## Wedrownik

stevekozak said:


> Handling them how? Preventing people from getting those mutated viruses or what? Serious question.


This vaccine does not work by preventing you from getting Covid (there are different types of vaccines and how they work - you might need to read up on them  ). This one helps your body generate antibodies to fight this from day one. The vaccines that handle the variants mean that they recognize the variants upon infection and the antibodies are compatible with fighting the virus.... again I'm just a computer engineer - if you need a better explanation you might want to talk to a virusologist


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## inceptor

> vaccine [ vak-seen or, especially British, vak-seen, -sin ]
> noun
> any preparation used as a preventive inoculation to confer immunity against a specific disease, usually employing an innocuous form of the disease agent, as killed or weakened bacteria or viruses, to stimulate antibody production.


This is not a vaccine. It's gene modification. The "vaccine" does not prevent the virus, it's supposed to lessen the effects.

https://www.asgct.org/research/news/november-2020/covid-19-moderna-nih-vaccine


----------



## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> This vaccine does not work by preventing you from getting Covid (there are different types of vaccines and how they work - you might need to read up on them  ). This one helps your body generate antibodies to fight this from day one. The vaccines that handle the variants mean that they recognize the variants upon infection and the antibodies are compatible with fighting the virus.... again I'm just a computer engineer - if you need a better explanation you might want to talk to a virusologist


"This one" isn't a vaccine at all; it is a therapy. I have read up on them and I did it before the KungFlu came on the scene. I knew about the mRNA "vaccine" experiments before, knew that they were nothing but a string of failures for years and I don't believe that they miraculously solved all the problems in a few months, but for yours and others' sakes, I hope that they did.


----------



## ActionJackson

Wedrownik said:


> This vaccine does not work by preventing you from getting Covid (there are different types of vaccines and how they work - you might need to read up on them  ). This one helps your body generate antibodies to fight this from day one. The vaccines that handle the variants mean that they recognize the variants upon infection and the antibodies are compatible with fighting the virus.... again I'm just a computer engineer - if you need a better explanation you might want to talk to a virusologist


The body already produces enough antibodies to fight Convid. There's a 99% recovery rate as it is. Guess what the recovery rate will be if people take a vaccine. Probably 99%. However, we still don't know what the long term, side affects will be as a result of taking an untested concoction. Remember ... the same people who told us that "15 days of lockdown" and wearing masks would put a stop to Convid are the exact same people pushing this untested vaccine. No thanks!


----------



## NotTooProudToHide

I wonder what the shut down excuse is going to be now that they are getting all these shots in arms.


----------



## inceptor

NotTooProudToHide said:


> I wonder what the shut down excuse is going to be now that they are getting all these shots in arms.


Fauci said the other day that this will most likely continue at least until the fall. They need to make sure the vaccines are working. :vs_laugh:


----------



## Mrs. Spork

NotTooProudToHide said:


> I wonder what the shut down excuse is going to be now that they are getting all these shots in arms.


The next variant... Any "new" bug... The zombie threat created by the vax... Doesn't really matter but there will be an excuse, no doubt.

Sent from my LM-G850 using Tapatalk


----------



## stevekozak

Mrs. Spork said:


> The next variant... Any "new" bug... The zombie threat created by the vax... Doesn't really matter but there will be an excuse, no doubt.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G850 using Tapatalk


Now that they have proven they can control the populace with fear, they will keep doing it in spades. Welcome my friend, welcome to the machine!! 
Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery


----------



## Smitty901

As this will soon be my last days on the site. VA called this morning about the shots. Early on I told them to get those in greater need . They have me setup now for the 11th for the first one. May as well get it out of the way. X ray a while back for other reasons showed a spot on one of my lungs. Had CT scan yesterday. It may be a bit before I know any more. They are running way behind in CT scan being reviewed. Seen due to cov19 lot of people don't need to come to work for a Pay check.
VA hospital is not even close to busy like they try to tell you.
If it were not for Payton I would pass on the shot. Doctor I trust got his already so that influenced me to go ahead.


----------



## Denton

Smitty901 said:


> As this will soon be my last days on the site. VA called this morning about the shots. Early on I told them to get those in greater need . They have me setup now for the 11th for the first one. May as well get it out of the way. X ray a while back for other reasons showed a spot on one of my lungs. Had CT scan yesterday. It may be a bit before I know any more. They are running way behind in CT scan being reviewed. Seen due to cov19 lot of people don't need to come to work for a Pay check.
> VA hospital is not even close to busy like they try to tell you.
> If it were not for Payton I would pass on the shot. Doctor I trust got his already so that influenced me to go ahead.


Where ya going?


----------



## Smitty901

Denton said:


> Where ya going?


 New software will force me off the forum. I like it here but have experience with it and can not go along with it


----------



## Denton

Smitty901 said:


> New software will force me off the forum. I like it here but have experience with it and can not go along with it


I'm sorry to hear that.


----------



## Annie

Smitty901 said:


> New software will force me off the forum. I like it here but have experience with it and can not go along with it


_Nooooo!_


----------



## Smitty901

Denton said:


> I'm sorry to hear that.


 Not as sorry as I will be missing out on the fine members here


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## Smitty901

Well first shot is over with. VA clinic was doing 2-3 at a time. Forms , instructions and shot about 15 minutes


----------



## Smitty901

Had first shot at 1245 yesterday. Woke up this morning not feeling well. Have not eat anything all day. Temps running 100.3. Right now I feel like I did the first day I knew I had COV19.


----------



## SGG

Hope you feel better soon Smitty! I know you will, but keep us informed.


----------



## Smitty901

SGG said:


> Hope you feel better soon Smitty! I know you will, but keep us informed.


 Doctor called awhile ago . Said that with in expected reactions. Main reason I called is they gave me a list and said if these reactions are happening to call them. Current temp is 101.8


----------



## Wedrownik

Smitty901 said:


> Doctor called awhile ago . Said that with in expected reactions. Main reason I called is they gave me a list and said if these reactions are happening to call them. Current temp is 101.8


Hope that you feel better soon. As reported for the most part I was good, at most if anything was sore arm and overall laziness feeling for me.... but then again I haven't been sleeping well recently so I am somewhat lethargic during the day. I think I'm turning into a sloth  Guess I should apply for a job at the DMV


----------



## SGG

Girlfriend got a tetanus shot yesterday, complained more about soreness from that than the covid vaccine.


----------



## Smitty901

SGG said:


> Girlfriend got a tetanus shot yesterday, complained more about soreness from that than the covid vaccine.


 At the sight of the injection I have noticed noting. Chills. Fever , wore out . Spent over 90% of the day in bed. Fever seems to be backing off now.


----------



## Mrs. Spork

Smitty901 said:


> At the sight of the injection I have noticed noting. Chills. Fever , wore out . Spent over 90% of the day in bed. Fever seems to be backing off now.


Please be cateful, for those of uh... advanced? age it seems the second shot can be much worse. The worse your original symptoms the worse the reaction seems to be with the vaccine. So sorry you aren't feeling well 

Sent from my LM-G850 using Tapatalk


----------



## Smitty901

0300 Any fever is gone. No longer tired. Feeling a little weak but not to bad. Seems to run it course. Just in time. need to get out at day light and plow the snow. 12 below right now wind chill is 26 below.


----------



## SGG

Smitty901 said:


> 0300 Any fever is gone. No longer tired. Feeling a little weak but not to bad. Seems to run it course. Just in time. need to get out at day light and plow the snow. 12 below right now wind chill is 26 below.


Good news. Don't work too hard


----------



## ActionJackson

NotTooProudToHide said:


> I wonder what the shut down excuse is going to be now that they are getting all these shots in arms.


Since the _scary_ virus has already mutated ... they'll simply have to come up with a new vaccine. Then, when the virus mutates again -- yup -- a third vaccine. And this game will go on ad infinitum. So far ... the Convid scare has been the most effective CONTROL MECHANISM used on the American people. It's puts "The War On Drugs," "Weapons of Mass Destruction," "Islamic Terrorism" (no longer used due to political incorrectness), "Iranian Nuclear Capability," and "Global Warming" to shame. In fact ... Convid has been more effective at "people control" than all the aforementioned fear tactics combined.


----------



## Smitty901

ActionJackson said:


> Since the _scary_ virus has already mutated ... they'll simply have to come up with a new vaccine. Then, when the virus mutates again -- yup -- a third vaccine. And this game will go on ad infinitum. So far ... the Convid scare has been the most effective CONTROL MECHANISM used on the American people. It's puts "The War On Drugs," "Weapons of Mass Destruction," "Islamic Terrorism" (no longer used due to political incorrectness), "Iranian Nuclear Capability," and "Global Warming" to shame. In fact ... Convid has been more effective at "people control" than all the aforementioned fear tactics combined.


 One thing seems clear to me. The vaccine has no virus in it just a created mixture from a lab. Well that shows this virus came to be the same way.


----------



## Wedrownik

My folks had their second shot of Moderna yesterday. My dad is 84 and my mom is 80 this year.

My dad went through with flying colors. My mom had chills about 8 hours after, slight fever, and nasuea that turned into vomiting couple times. 36 hours later she's all good again though slightly tired.


----------



## Chiefster23

My mom will be 92 in two weeks. She just received her second shot Saturday. No ill effects from either dose other than a sore arm.


----------



## Megamom134

It's a GMO, no inactive virus in it al all.


----------



## Smitty901

Mother in law is 90 and Had bladder cancer surgery awhile back shot went ok next one is coming up


----------



## inceptor

Smitty901 said:


> One thing seems clear to me. The vaccine has no virus in it just a created mixture from a lab. Well that shows this virus came to be the same way.


It's not a vaccine, they just call it that. It's gene modification. It's designed to change up your DNA.


----------



## Chiefster23

inceptor said:


> It's not a vaccine, they just call it that. It's gene modification. It's designed to change up your DNA.


Every article I've seen says it's impossible to change your DNA. Now I'm talking articles from real sources, not the crazy fear-porn sites. I'm sure fang or bamadoc could chime in here with a little professional input.


----------



## ActionJackson

Smitty901 said:


> One thing seems clear to me. The vaccine has no virus in it just a created mixture from a lab. Well that shows this virus came to be the same way.


Man oh man ... I strongly urge EVERYONE to watch this video. I mean it! You will never find this on YouTube but thank God for BitChute:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/j7D2eBFmnvH5/


----------



## inceptor

Chiefster23 said:


> Every article I've seen says it's impossible to change your DNA. Now I'm talking articles from real sources, not the crazy fear-porn sites. I'm sure fang or bamadoc could chime in here with a little professional input.


 @fangfarrier you're opinion would be appreciated.

Here is an article from the American Society of Gene and Cell Therapy. I'm no scientist by any stretch of the imagination but this is what I found.

https://www.asgct.org/research/news/november-2020/covid-19-moderna-nih-vaccine


----------



## 23897

Imposible to change DNA??

Ha

Look up CRISPR. 

Fang 


PS

My father had the Pfiszer shot on Monday. 

Wednesday he had a cardiac arrest

Thursday he is in Acute Care 

Friday he needed a triple bypass. 

He’s still in ICU. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stevekozak

fangfarrier said:


> Imposible to change DNA??
> 
> Ha
> 
> Look up CRISPR.
> 
> Fang
> 
> PS
> 
> My father had the Pfiszer shot on Monday.
> 
> Wednesday he had a cardiac arrest
> 
> Thursday he is in Acute Care
> 
> Friday he needed a triple bypass.
> 
> He's still in ICU.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry to hear about your father!! I believe these "vaccinations" are harmful AF. Your story seems to support that opinion. I hope your father recovers!


----------



## Wedrownik

stevekozak said:


> Sorry to hear about your father!! I believe these "vaccinations" are harmful AF. Your story seems to support that opinion. I hope your father recovers!


I feel bad for anyone who has any medical issue for any reason and I would like to wish him quick recovery.

Stating that one led to the other is (to partially quote you) ignorant AF. Correlation is not causation.

Thousands of people world wide got the shots and I have not seen any reports of massive cardiac arrest and the like. Folks had them before the shots were out ...


----------



## stevekozak

Wedrownik said:


> I feel bad for anyone who has any medical issue for any reason and I would like to wish him quick recovery.
> 
> Stating that one led to the other is (to partially quote you) ignorant AF. Correlation is not causation.
> 
> Thousands of people world wide got the shots and I have not seen any reports of massive cardiac arrest and the like. Folks had them before the shots were out ...


Tell me more, Wedrownik. I never get tired of learning at your feet. I have been trying to remember if you were this incredibly wise before you asked medical professionals to stick cell-altering substances into your body. Either way, so very glad to have you around. You brighten up the place!!


----------



## Wedrownik

I know that it cant be positively said one way or the other. Claiming causation is ignorant


----------



## Annie

fangfarrier said:


> Imposible to change DNA??
> 
> Ha
> 
> Look up CRISPR.
> 
> Fang
> 
> PS
> 
> My father had the Pfiszer shot on Monday.
> 
> Wednesday he had a cardiac arrest
> 
> Thursday he is in Acute Care
> 
> Friday he needed a triple bypass.
> 
> He's still in ICU.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So sorry to hear it, Fang. Hope he's better soon.


----------



## MisterMills357

Well I added one more to my ignore list, that doesn’t fix things in my life, but it removes a thorn.
There are some stupid replies on this thread, from people who “follow the science”, and then lift science up as an idol.

And they deny that there are implications, that can be followed.


----------



## Smitty901

fangfarrier said:


> Imposible to change DNA??
> 
> Ha
> 
> Look up CRISPR.
> 
> Fang
> 
> PS
> 
> My father had the Pfiszer shot on Monday.
> 
> Wednesday he had a cardiac arrest
> 
> Thursday he is in Acute Care
> 
> Friday he needed a triple bypass.
> 
> He's still in ICU.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Prayers for your Father and his house


----------



## Wedrownik

So I started this thread to let folks know about the experience of taking the shot. Some of y'all started to make this thread into I dont know what.

You dont wanna take the shot? Fine... but really? Are you that desperate for attention to spread ignorant statements?

Heres what y'all are saying:

I ate beef 2 days ago. Today I got the trots. So the only logical conclusion is that beef gave me the trots...

That's the correlation cant be equaled to causation with the scientific method backing it up....


Anyways... done with this one....


----------



## Annie

Wedrownik said:


> So I started this thread to let folks know about the experience of taking the shot. Some of y'all started to make this thread into I dont know what.
> 
> You dont wanna take the shot? Fine... but really? Are you that desperate for attention to spread ignorant statements?
> 
> Heres what y'all are saying:
> 
> I ate beef 2 days ago. Today I got the trots. So the only logical conclusion is that beef gave me the trots...
> 
> That's the correlation cant be equaled to causation with the scientific method backing it up....
> 
> Anyways... done with this one....


No, you started the thread off by insinuating (post 35) that we should be held liable and be made to pay extra for not getting the shot.



> Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.
> 
> My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....


----------



## 1skrewsloose

Sounds like he is pro ObamaCare.


----------



## Wedrownik

Annie said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I started this thread to let folks know about the experience of taking the shot. Some of y'all started to make this thread into I dont know what.
> 
> You dont wanna take the shot? Fine... but really? Are you that desperate for attention to spread ignorant statements?
> 
> Heres what y'all are saying:
> 
> I ate beef 2 days ago. Today I got the trots. So the only logical conclusion is that beef gave me the trots...
> 
> That's the correlation cant be equaled to causation with the scientific method backing it up....
> 
> Anyways... done with this one....
> 
> 
> 
> No, you started the thread off by insinuating (post 35) that we should be held liable and be made to pay extra for not getting the shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.
> 
> My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Actually I asked that question after someone came in and started to talk about how they refuse to take shots cause medical people are useless.... this is kind of the same jumping in when someone says: I bought a widget and let me tell you about my experience and someone comes in and starts dumping on the widget. Opinion was not asked nor was it solicited.... and imho out of place
So I asked if shots are there to reduce the costs of treatment should those that choose not to get them pay more... philosophical discussion as this thread does not set policy....


----------



## Annie

Wedrownik said:


> Actually I asked that question after someone came in and started to talk about how they refuse to take shots cause medical people are useless.... this is kind of the same jumping in when someone says: I bought a widget and let me tell you about my experience and someone comes in and starts dumping on the widget. Opinion was not asked nor was it solicited.... and imho out of place


 This vaccine is not just some innocuous widget; it's the covid shot and there's a lot of controversy. You must have know it'd be a contentious topic. It's not just like talking about the latest bargain you got at Home Depot.



> So I asked if shots are there to reduce the costs of treatment should those that choose not to get them pay more... philosophical discussion as this thread does not set policy....


So are you in favor of that? Should people who refuse it pay more in your opinion?


----------



## 1skrewsloose

Anyways... done with this one....

Atta boy!


----------



## inceptor

fangfarrier said:


> Imposible to change DNA??
> 
> Ha
> 
> Look up CRISPR.
> 
> Fang
> 
> PS
> 
> My father had the Pfiszer shot on Monday.
> 
> Wednesday he had a cardiac arrest
> 
> Thursday he is in Acute Care
> 
> Friday he needed a triple bypass.
> 
> He's still in ICU.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry to hear about your father. A prayer for his recovery.

Thanks, I had forgotten about CRISPR. That story has gotten buried.

I asked for your opinion as I have seen you deal with the FACTS as they came available. I respect what you've said and done.

It seems that facts are no longer relevant. Like the nurse from the SE who collapsed moments after she had her shot on camera. It's been reported that she died. The statement released about her being fine was removed from the hospital website and her death has gone unreported by the MSM. The only reports that have surfaced are from her friends and those were quickly taken down. End result, no supporting facts so it didn't happen.

One fact released early on was the vaccine was a cure. Except it wasn't. The vaccine was supposed to prevent a person from getting the virus except it doesn't. I find it amazing how the narrative changes on this with no referring to the facts previously stated. How I found out it wouldn't prevent the virus was by an interview on GMA with the surgeon general. In the last minute of the interview he did state that it doesn't prevent one from getting the virus, only lessens the effects. He stated it was good for 4 months, now they are saying 3 months.

Then we are being told, more or less, by someone here that there are no side effects to the vaccine. That this vaccine being untested should be mandatory or one should pay a penalty for not taking it. Unlike that person, I am no medical professional by any stretch of the imagination. Nor do I claim to be. I do however do my best to follow the facts as the are given. Sometimes one must read between the lines and look for what is not stated. That in itself says a lot.

Roughly 80% of medical professionals are refusing the vaccine due to lack of hard data. I frankly don't blame them. A recent report from NPR says 40%.



> On the feelings of the staff at Loretto Hospital, in a majority-Black community on Chicago's West Side
> 
> We did a survey right before the vaccine came out ... basically as to where you work in the hospital, and would you or would you not get the vaccine when it is your turn? We came up with, 60 percent said yes, and 40 percent actually said no.





> And then, they have also heard the word "guinea pig." ... That community was used, unfortunately, as guinea pigs - whether it was Tuskegee, whether it was Henrietta Lacks' cells being used without her permission. That caused them to have this mistrust. So what we want and need to do is figure out how to move forward with that.


https://www.npr.org/2021/01/01/9527...-are-hesitant-about-getting-covid-19-vaccines

So no, I won't be taking the vaccine and I still say people should not be penalized for not getting it. We are should be penalized yet big pharma gets a free pass for an untested vaccine if any adverse side effects happen? Some have died yet we are to over look that part. Some have had other serious medical conditions but it can't be because of the vaccine that isn't a vaccine. Move along, move along, nothing to see here.

vaccine [ vak-seen or, especially British, vak-seen, -sin ] noun
any preparation used as a preventive inoculation to confer immunity against a specific disease, usually employing an innocuous form of the disease agent, as killed or weakened bacteria or viruses, to stimulate antibody production.

the virus of cowpox, used in vaccination, obtained from pox vesicles of a cow or person.


----------



## Wedrownik

Annie: at some point I indicated in this lengthy thread that I could see points for both sides of charging extra and not. I was curious as to the opinions of folks that stated medicine and insurance was exploitative and they refuse to take the shot. So this played actually right into what they wanted: dpnt pay extra for insurance dont take the shot as according to their point of view this shot was useless and c19 is not a big deal so on the rare fraction of a percent that there would be need for extra services I would have assumed they'd say: yep, I'll pay for what I use. But it ended up a I want the cake and I want to eat it and so on....

Regarding the vaccine/cure. As of July of last year it was already publicized that it would not be the cure, it would not prevent you from getting it but rather help your body fight it. If you heard otherwise then you listened to the idiotic media that feasts on creating panic and then benefits from it....

Lastly, I know a lot of folks in medical profession in both US, Canada and quite a few of the European countries. Of about 60 people or so (first or second hand acquaintances) I know of only one medical professional that refuses to take the vaccine.... but he is a doctor that is trying to get into politics and he is using C19 to boost his career.....


And yes - maybe controversial topic but still any interaction and exchange requires some decorum... jumping into topic and offering opinions when they were not part of the discussion... well... 

Btw I'm bot against having discussion whether I think vaccine works or not... but surprised the person that derailed this didnt start a separate topic..... cold me old fashioned but I believe there is a level of fisorganiz respect that is missing in most interactions nowadays and internet allows folks to be braver then they would be in person...


----------



## inceptor

Wedrownik said:


> Btw I'm bot against having discussion whether I think vaccine works or not... but surprised the person that derailed this didnt start a separate topic..... cold me old fashioned but I believe there is a level of fisorganiz respect that is missing in most interactions nowadays and internet allows folks to be braver then they would be in person...


Frankly with me, what you see is what you get. I'm not a keyboard commando and would have not trouble saying EXACTLY what I've stated to your face. I'm just too hard headed and too old to give a rat's ass.


----------



## 2020 Convert

I first jumped in on this post with a little satire. Now here is the serious side.

I know people don’t want to get, it and it is their choice. 

I actually believe my odds of surviving it are 99%. But my big problem is bringing it home. 
My wife has 2 of 5 comorbidity factors. 

She has 9 medical letters after her name, they just don’t start with MD. But I bring her to medical appointments and she intimidates the MDs. 

I know she has researched this because of her conditions. Her MDs at 1 of the 2 specialty centers for her condition in the country, cleared her to get it. She suggested that she be a test case to see if she had built up antibodies. The MDs said she raised a valid point, but were to lazy to order the blood test.

She is contacting Moderna to see if they would want to order the test results, as long as they share it with her. Her immunosuppressants wouldn’t allow her to build antibodies with a live virus vaccine (that would probably kill her). But with this technology, she might be able to.

I watch the news, see people in line for vaccines that are not eligible, hear celebs that are not eligible getting it. I said, I will lie cheat and steal, as to not get it and bring it home. 

I did lie cheat and steal.


----------



## Wedrownik

inceptor said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Btw I'm bot against having discussion whether I think vaccine works or not... but surprised the person that derailed this didnt start a separate topic..... cold me old fashioned but I believe there is a level of fisorganiz respect that is missing in most interactions nowadays and internet allows folks to be braver then they would be in person...
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly with me, what you see is what you get. I'm not a keyboard commando and would have not trouble saying EXACTLY what I've stated to your face. I'm just too hard headed and too old to give a rat's ass.
Click to expand...

Yes, but would you walk in in real life and start talking out of turn off the direct topic? I'm not saying that's what you did, but that'd what happens on the net and that's what happened here.... &#128521;


----------



## inceptor

Wedrownik said:


> Yes, but would you walk in in real life and start talking out of turn off the direct topic? I'm not saying that's what you did, but that'd what happens on the net and that's what happened here.... &#55357;&#56841;


Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about the covide "vaccine" here. My bad.


----------



## Wedrownik

inceptor said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but would you walk in in real life and start talking out of turn off the direct topic? I'm not saying that's what you did, but that'd what happens on the net and that's what happened here.... ��
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about the covide "vaccine" here. My bad.
Click to expand...

I thought originally we weren't going off topic as well &#128521;


----------



## 23897

Wedrownik said:


> Yes, but would you walk in in real life and start talking out of turn off the direct topic? I'm not saying that's what you did, but that'd what happens on the net and that's what happened here....


Real life is a synchronous conversation. This way, a forum, is asynchronous. There is no direct correlation of turns.

And, to be fair, you did start off the topic with a fallacy. "Pfizer vaccine" when you meant an mRNA gene therapy that is trying to use the relatively safe history of true vaccines to cover for the numerous issues that have been documented with gene therapies over the years.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## inceptor

Wedrownik said:


> I thought originally we weren't going off topic as well &#55357;&#56841;


I discussed what you brought up. I guess you thought there was a yes or no answer. Like most issues, there are a lot of variables. I discussed the variables and my reason behind my opinion. If that's what you refer to as thread drift then you should just try polls. There fairly easy to set up. Frankly I saw nothing off topic, the topic being should one be penalized for not getting the vaccine that's not a vaccine.

You pretty much stated that we should be penalized for not accepting the fact that the vaccine is safe and effective. Yet big pharna has yet to prove that it's safe and effective. My wife took it because the powers that be scared her silly. She is convinced that she will be part of the small percentage that will die. Me, I'll survive it. I have survived worse.

Per CDC statistics released last Sept.



> That means that for people 69 years old or younger, the survival rate is between 99.5 percent and 99.997 percent, while for those 70 or older, it is an estimated 94.6 percent.
> 
> Breitbart News gleaned the survival rate figures from the CDC's IFR estimates: 0-19 years old, 0.003 percent; 20-49 years old, 0.02 percent; 50-69 years, 0.5 percent; 70 years old or older, 5.4 percent.


Yes that's from Breitbart. The MSM hasn't released any statistics that I can find. They just allude to the fact, take it or die. Now I'm not a scientist nor do I play one on TV but I prefer facts.

So the answer to your original question is a simple no. I don't believe those who don't take the vaccine should be financially penalized. And yes, I'm aware that your friends bill and anthony will be disappointed.


----------



## Chiefster23

I’m going to point out some glaring hypocrisy here. For a long time now many of us (me included) said that virus deaths were being over reported. Many deaths from other causes were being marked up as covid deaths. Examples: heart attack, heart failure, etc. We all gleefully jumped on the bandwagon and screamed that the ‘agenda’ required covid deaths so that’s what the health care industry was reporting.

Now some here are guilty of the same thing. Any negative health outcomes that happen after a person receives a covid shot are chalked up as being caused by that vaccine shot. That’s isn’t necessarily accurate. My mother will be 92 next month and in poor health. In fact, she is in hospice care. If she dies after receiving the vaccine it would be reckless of me to blame the shot. Isn’t it just as likely she passed as a result of her underlying poor health conditions?

Fang said his relative suffered a cardiac event and triple bypass after getting the vaccine. He didn’t supply much detail. But isn’t it possible that he would have had that event anyway? Triple bypass frequently result from blockages caused by plaque and long term poor diet and smoking. Without more details, isn’t it just as likely Fang’s relative would have suffered this event regardless of vaccine or not?

Are we guilty of the same agenda driven mindset we accuse the other side of promoting?


----------



## stevekozak

Chiefster23 said:


> I'm going to point out some glaring hypocrisy here. For a long time now many of us (me included) said that virus deaths were being over reported. Many deaths from other causes were being marked up as covid deaths. Examples: heart attack, heart failure, etc. We all gleefully jumped on the bandwagon and screamed that the 'agenda' required covid deaths so that's what the health care industry was reporting.
> 
> Now some here are guilty of the same thing. Any negative health outcomes that happen after a person receives a covid shot are chalked up as being caused by that vaccine shot. That's isn't necessarily accurate. My mother will be 92 next month and in poor health. In fact, she is in hospice care. If she dies after receiving the vaccine it would be reckless of me to blame the shot. Isn't it just as likely she passed as a result of her underlying poor health conditions?
> 
> Fang said his relative suffered a cardiac event and triple bypass after getting the vaccine. He didn't supply much detail. But isn't it possible that he would have had that event anyway? Triple bypass frequently result from blockages caused by plaque and long term poor diet and smoking. Without more details, isn't it just as likely Fang's relative would have suffered this event regardless of vaccine or not?
> 
> Are we guilty of the same agenda driven mindset we accuse the other side of promoting?


No.........


----------



## Smitty901

Vaccine did not alter my DNA. Did not kill me. Will it protect others around me we shall see.


----------



## Sasquatch

Smitty901 said:


> Vaccine did not alter my DNA. Did not kill me. Will it protect others around me we shall see.


I'm not worried about the shot short term. I dont trust it long term.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Wedrownik

Chiefster23 said:


> I'm going to point out some glaring hypocrisy here. For a long time now many of us (me included) said that virus deaths were being over reported. Many deaths from other causes were being marked up as covid deaths. Examples: heart attack, heart failure, etc. We all gleefully jumped on the bandwagon and screamed that the 'agenda' required covid deaths so that's what the health care industry was reporting.
> 
> Now some here are guilty of the same thing. Any negative health outcomes that happen after a person receives a covid shot are chalked up as being caused by that vaccine shot. That's isn't necessarily accurate. My mother will be 92 next month and in poor health. In fact, she is in hospice care. If she dies after receiving the vaccine it would be reckless of me to blame the shot. Isn't it just as likely she passed as a result of her underlying poor health conditions?
> 
> Fang said his relative suffered a cardiac event and triple bypass after getting the vaccine. He didn't supply much detail. But isn't it possible that he would have had that event anyway? Triple bypass frequently result from blockages caused by plaque and long term poor diet and smoking. Without more details, isn't it just as likely Fang's relative would have suffered this event regardless of vaccine or not?
> 
> Are we guilty of the same agenda driven mindset we accuse the other side of promoting?


I think you are totally on the money here. I don't believe the numbers for Covid.... I don't believe the comparison that is being made to the flu.... why? Starting with the flu: we have no way of knowing how many cases of flu we get because most folks never went to the doctor to get checked out for flu. Covid? There are the false negatives and false positives: I know first hand of folks that all 4 had major symptoms and were pretty sick. They all got tested, only one got confirmed C19 - while all 4 were really bad (near hospitalization bad with all the symptoms).... Am I saying there are more sick then reported? no.... am I saying fewer sick then reported? nope...... I'm saying we don't know and I don't think we ever will.

So yeah - you're right on the money - everyone has an agenda: including us. Sometimes it's hidden, sometimes it's unconscious, sometimes it's blatant....


----------



## stevekozak

Smitty901 said:


> Vaccine did not alter my DNA. Did not kill me. Will it protect others around me we shall see.


One of those statements is, at least currently, true. I wish you all the best. Honestly, I think that a quick death from it would be one of the more positive things that might come from the vax. Hope I am wrong.


----------



## Smitty901

stevekozak said:


> One of those statements is, at least currently, true. I wish you all the best. Honestly, I think that a quick death from it would be one of the more positive things that might come from the vax. Hope I am wrong.


 I do recall every vaccine ever received in my life was going to kill me. Eat my brain. make my children grow 7 toes on and on. Cause every from of mental illness know to man and few made up ones. Now I have lived a long and healthy life because of them.
That does not mean that at times there was not a very small percentage that had an issue. This current one may be the one that wipes man kind out. I have my doubts about that. It will not alter my DNA. Some have been watching an older science fiction movie where they changed humans into a creature that could live on a distance plant by changing his DNA. I betting that is not the case.
People that depend on me now. I must consider their needs. While I now am making arrangements to better serve them I also move on. Good chance I am not long for this world anyway nothing to do with cov19 or vaccine. I said early on I would get the cov19 if need be and I would like take the shots . Someone needs to be the test subject. Why not me. I have no fear. There is a part of me that is so no worried you would never understand it.


----------



## 23897

Chiefster23 said:


> I'm going to point out some glaring hypocrisy here. For a long time now many of us (me included) said that virus deaths were being over reported. Many deaths from other causes were being marked up as covid deaths. Examples: heart attack, heart failure, etc. We all gleefully jumped on the bandwagon and screamed that the 'agenda' required covid deaths so that's what the health care industry was reporting.
> 
> Now some here are guilty of the same thing. Any negative health outcomes that happen after a person receives a covid shot are chalked up as being caused by that vaccine shot. That's isn't necessarily accurate. My mother will be 92 next month and in poor health. In fact, she is in hospice care. If she dies after receiving the vaccine it would be reckless of me to blame the shot. Isn't it just as likely she passed as a result of her underlying poor health conditions?
> 
> Fang said his relative suffered a cardiac event and triple bypass after getting the vaccine. He didn't supply much detail. But isn't it possible that he would have had that event anyway? Triple bypass frequently result from blockages caused by plaque and long term poor diet and smoking. Without more details, isn't it just as likely Fang's relative would have suffered this event regardless of vaccine or not?
> 
> Are we guilty of the same agenda driven mindset we accuse the other side of promoting?


Yes it is possibly a coincide. 
My Dad was a mechanic. He never bothered with doctors. When he cut himself he used to bind the wound with electricians tape. He's 79 this year. He's the gardner at the local church and railway station. The railway company even put a plaque up because he won an award for them for best kept station. 
He's never been sick in my whole memory of him. 50 years. And within 72 hours of taking experimental gene therapy he is in hospital for the first time in his life with heart problems. 
Surely a coincidence.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 23897

Smitty901 said:


> I do recall every vaccine ever received in my life was going to kill me. Eat my brain. make my children grow 7 toes on and on. Cause every from of mental illness know to man and few made up ones. Now I have lived a long and healthy life because of them.
> That does not mean that at times there was not a very small percentage that had an issue. This current one may be the one that wipes man kind out. I have my doubts about that. It will not alter my DNA. Some have been watching an older science fiction movie where they changed humans into a creature that could live on a distance plant by changing his DNA. I betting that is not the case.
> People that depend on me now. I must consider their needs. While I now am making arrangements to better serve them I also move on. Good chance I am not long for this world anyway nothing to do with cov19 or vaccine. I said early on I would get the cov19 if need be and I would like take the shots . Someone needs to be the test subject. Why not me. I have no fear. There is a part of me that is so no worried you would never understand it.


Again: you didn't get a vaccine. You had experimental gene therapy and aborted foetal cells injected into you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk lo


----------



## Wedrownik

fangfarrier said:


> Smitty901 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do recall every vaccine ever received in my life was going to kill me. Eat my brain. make my children grow 7 toes on and on. Cause every from of mental illness know to man and few made up ones. Now I have lived a long and healthy life because of them.
> That does not mean that at times there was not a very small percentage that had an issue. This current one may be the one that wipes man kind out. I have my doubts about that. It will not alter my DNA. Some have been watching an older science fiction movie where they changed humans into a creature that could live on a distance plant by changing his DNA. I betting that is not the case.
> People that depend on me now. I must consider their needs. While I now am making arrangements to better serve them I also move on. Good chance I am not long for this world anyway nothing to do with cov19 or vaccine. I said early on I would get the cov19 if need be and I would like take the shots . Someone needs to be the test subject. Why not me. I have no fear. There is a part of me that is so no worried you would never understand it.
> 
> 
> 
> Again: you didn't get a vaccine. You had experimental gene therapy and aborted foetal cells injected into you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk lo
Click to expand...

So let's throw out more fudd... while the research used fetal cells, the actual vaccine does not contain them....


----------



## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> So let's throw out more fudd... while the research used fetal cells, the actual vaccine does not contain them....


Does that make you feel better?


----------



## Smitty901

fangfarrier said:


> Again: you didn't get a vaccine. You had experimental gene therapy and aborted foetal cells injected into you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk lo


 Sir while you put on a good argument you take a lot of room to make a point you are pushing. And make no mistake every post is pushing an agenda. Enjoy reading you but not always buying what you are selling.


----------



## Wedrownik

Denton said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> So let's throw out more fudd... while the research used fetal cells, the actual vaccine does not contain them....
> 
> 
> 
> Does that make you feel better?
Click to expand...

Does that matter in the context at hand?


----------



## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> Does that matter in the context at hand?


Depends on your personal ethics. To me? Yes.

Context at hand? What is the context?


----------



## 23897

Wedrownik said:


> So let's throw out more fudd... while the research used fetal cells, the actual vaccine does not contain them....


Not vaccine. 
Gene therapy. Get your nomenclature correct.

Check ingredients on carpule. Report back. I'll wait.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wedrownik

Denton said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does that matter in the context at hand?
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on your personal ethics. To me? Yes.
> 
> Context at hand? What is the context?
Click to expand...

A lie was made about the content of the shot.... I corrected it and a question was asked whether it made me feel better...

Issue is not about feeling better or not... it's about not spreading misinformation.

Same goes with the term vaccine.. what pfizer and moderna is while not the same mechanism as we know it, it does pass muster against definition of vaccine


> Definition of Terms
> 
> Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person's immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.


So I can understand some dont trust it, dont want it, whatever.... but why spread bs just cause you're against it?


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## 23897

Hey wait! This Pfizer gene therapy contains mRNA!! I wonder how that was made?? What cells were used to produce it? And they separated it from the full cells how? Hmmm. Well if was manufactured in a cell and then spun out of the cell obviously that cell remained completely intact and NO remnants of it at all could be found in the carpule. Except for the magic mRNA (
nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) encoding the viral spike glycoprotein (S) of SARS-CoV-2
Lipids and the (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis (ALC-3015) and
(2- hexyldecanoate),2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide (ALC-0159) and
1,2-distearoyl-snglycero-3-phosphocholine (DPSC) or the cholesterol, never mind the 
potassium chloride or monobasic potassium phosphate. There's even plain old sodium chloride and basic sodium phosphate dihydrate. And, of course a spoonful of sucrose to make the medicine go down.

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## Wedrownik

Heres some light reading

https://www.forbes.com/sites/victor...ant-alter-your-dna-heres-why/?sh=1742f8cf2491


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> A lie was made about the content of the shot.... I corrected it and a question was asked whether it made me feel better...
> 
> Issue is not about feeling better or not... it's about not spreading misinformation.
> 
> Same goes with the term vaccine.. what pfizer and moderna is while not the same mechanism as we know it, it does pass muster against definition of vaccine
> 
> So I can understand some dont trust it, dont want it, whatever.... but why spread bs just cause you're against it?


First off, did you do the research @fangfarrier suggested?

I didn't ask all that. I answered your question. Then, for clarification, I asked you the "context" to which you were referring. Now, what is the context?


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## 23897

Wedrownik said:


> Heres some light reading
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/victor...ant-alter-your-dna-heres-why/?sh=1742f8cf2491


And when you've finished the light entertainment version try the Journal of Molecular Biology. A paper on how to alter DNA with ... shock, horror ... mRNA!!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1525001618305938

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## 23897

Wedrownik said:


> A lie was made about the content of the shot.... I corrected it and a question was asked whether it made me feel better...
> 
> Issue is not about feeling better or not... it's about not spreading misinformation.
> 
> Same goes with the term vaccine.. what pfizer and moderna is while not the same mechanism as we know it, it does pass muster against definition of vaccine
> 
> So I can understand some dont trust it, dont want it, whatever.... but why spread bs just cause you're against it?


A lie.

You mean the content has foetal cells? In that it doesn't have intact, viable foetal cells I concede. The fact it has the contents of foetal cells I do not.

Note that the definition of vaccine to include the Pfizer and Moderna offerings was changed in 2020. The classical definition, as found in many textbooks in med schools today, does not.

The bs that is being spread is the blurring of definitions and contents to make the new medicines fit.

The Bs that despite every animal trial of mRNA gene therapy has had problems which shut the studies down before human trials EXCEPT the Pfizer and Moderna which missed out the animal trials ? Or if that doesn't fit your agenda then you call it BS??

Maybe the BS is in the 57 pages of trial data which shows a 33% reduction in COVID-19 signs and symptoms after full regime? NOT 95%

Maybe the rtPCR testing regime with 35 cycles?

I'll concede the full foetal cell point if you concede the misnomer of calling it a vaccine. Sounds fair?

I'll also remember next time I have an apple smoothie that as there are no intact apples in it it is in fact apple free.

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## Denton

It doesn't matter if the research was performed with the cells of aborted babies or if the cells are in the gene therapy treatment. Either way, you think you are benefiting.


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## Wedrownik

Fine... you're right... we gotta stop using them cause what they dont really tell you and I have from a very reliable source is that they contain
Ground unicorn horn
Reprocessed pixies (not pixy dust but actual pixies)
Tears of idiots....

😉


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> Fine... you're right... we gotta stop using them cause what they dont really tell you and I have from a very reliable source is that they contain
> Ground unicorn horn
> Reprocessed pixies (not pixy dust but actual pixies)
> Tears of idiots....
> 
> &#55357;&#56841;


Great response. Poor sarcasm.

I get it. You were bombarded with fear-porn condoned by governments and spread by MSM so you took the jab. Never mind they admit the jab won't stop you from getting the Vid and it won't stop you from transmitting it. You'll still have to wear a mask. They tell us, however, that the jab protects those around you, somehow.

They call it a vaccine but it isn't. It tinkers with your RNA. It's actually a medical procedure. Forcing a medical procedure on the population would be illegal, but if they can scare you into volunteering for it....

Why not? They scared the nation into wearing muzzles for months. Hell, they had me voluntarily wearing a masks for a couple of weeks, even though I knew they were worthless.

Fear! Fear! Fear is control. That's how you control a nation. That's how you make people do what they wouldn't ordinarily do. That's how they make you violate your own ethics, even.

An area with a population of about 40,000 people. three hundred "Covid deaths" since this began, and we know those numbers are highly inflated. The annual death rate hasn't changed. There's a reason why a lot of the people in my area are beginning to resist the muzzle.

Figure it out. Think. Start questioning. Regardless that you took the jab.


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## Wedrownik

And here you made loads of assumptions. I have made inquiries and did my due diligence which resulted in my decision. Time will tell who is right. Issue is that in opposition you go through lies and fear....

I remember reading about how first cars came out and they were approached. I remember reading about cCopernicus and Galileo.

Is this treatment whether you want to call it therapy or vaccine is the best solution? I dont know.... but while I chose to take it I do not call idiots those who chose not to.

Fear and ignorance go hand in hand. So much fudd on all sides of this issue - especially when it is politicized....

Anyways, I'm still waiting for my superpower... patience is definitely not it....


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> And here you made loads of assumptions. I have made inquiries and did my due diligence which resulted in my decision. Time will tell who is right. Issue is that in opposition you go through lies and fear....
> 
> I remember reading about how first cars came out and they were approached. I remember reading about cCopernicus and Galileo.
> 
> Is this treatment whether you want to call it therapy or vaccine is the best solution? I dont know.... but while I chose to take it I do not call idiots those who chose not to.
> 
> Fear and ignorance go hand in hand. So much fudd on all sides of this issue - especially when it is politicized....
> 
> Anyways, I'm still waiting for my superpower... patience is definitely not it....


So, you are comparing the notion that if you go faster than, if I recall, 35MPH, you will suffocate to what numerous MDs say about the gene therapy treatment?
The fact that they call it a vaccine rather than calling it what it is isn't a red flag for you?

You'll not get a superpower. Yeah; I know you are trying to be flippant.
I hope you are right.
If I am right, I'll be OK and you might not be within a couple of years. If you are right, both of us will be OK.
I'm thinking if you actually did your homework, you wouldn't have taken the jab.


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## Wedrownik

I can agree to disagree but going beyond that neither you nor I can say what will happen.

I cant say with utmost confidence that I will be better off then you nor the other way around. Your statement that you know you will be better off for not taking it is a fallacy unless you have a magic crystal ball that predicts future. If so, please please let me borrow it so that I can get the lottery numbers for this week in order to live my last days in luxury ,);


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> I can agree to disagree but going beyond that neither you nor I can say what will happen.
> 
> I cant say with utmost confidence that I will be better off then you nor the other way around. Your statement that you know you will be better off for not taking it is a fallacy unless you have a magic crystal ball that predicts future. If so, please please let me borrow it so that I can get the lottery numbers for this week in order to live my last days in luxury ,);


Talk about fallacy; you think you will be better off with the jab. The survival rate of this panicky virus is over 98%, yet you took the experimental jab.

Take your lottery smartassism and do the best you can. That you bought into the fear-mongering isn't a defense for your attempt at sarcasm. Had you actually done your homework, you'd know there was no good reason. If you thought that way, you'd have been shitting your panties over the seasonal flu.


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## Wedrownik

If you want to talk about buying into fallacies and propaganda look into the mirror. While c19 has a high survival rate it is more virulent which means more people get infected with it. So in the aspect of a nation more folks die from something that's more virulent. I could do the math for you, but if you dont have that figured out already then oh well....

There are also aspects of a lit of the folks after they recover having issues that will drag on. My buddy's dad is a retired pulmonologist and based on the data he has been reviewing folks lose lung capacity.

I do wish everyone the best. I wish noone gets sick and if they do that they recover with least amount of issues.


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## Denton

Wedrownik said:


> If you want to talk about buying into fallacies and propaganda look into the mirror. While c19 has a high survival rate it is more virulent which means more people get infected with it. So in the aspect of a nation more folks die from something that's more virulent. I could do the math for you, but if you dont have that figured out already then oh well....
> 
> There are also aspects of a lit of the folks after they recover having issues that will drag on. My buddy's dad is a retired pulmonologist and based on the data he has been reviewing folks lose lung capacity.
> 
> I do wish everyone the best. I wish noone gets sick and if they do that they recover with least amount of issues.


This is fun! You said you were down with this thread!

It is more virulent. Than what? The common Covid? The flu?

Your buddy's dad is a retired pulmonologist? How about that? I'm sure you know as many people who were diagnosed with the Kungflu, right? None have had any adverse side effects, including diminished lung capacity. He probably read the same things we all read in the first few weeks of the "epidemic."

We were told that overweight, diabetic people would DIEEEE! I knew a few who were and did not.

We were told that it would be a death sentence for the elderly. I know several over 80 who got it and made it just fine. Of course, none of them were scared out of their minds by the media.

I keep getting texts about someone I know getting the Vid. They keep getting better and going back to work. Holy CRAP! It's almost like a cold or, at worst, the flu! How will we ever survive.

Snowflake. Enjoy your experimental gene therapy treatment for no reason other than the government wanting you to be afraid.


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## SOCOM42

As a side bar on this, UMASS MEMORIAL HOSPITAL had sent me notification to go to hospital website and register for the shots.

Went there 3 days later, no more appointments are being made, no more vaccine and no anticipated delivery.

But they got plenty for the F''KING prisoners in the jails and state prisons, AND TO MAKE UP FOR RACIAL INEQUITY, WTF???

Oh yeah, the homeless are already getting administered the vaccine.

The prisoners started 3 weeks ago.


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## Denton

SOCOM42 said:


> As a side bar on this, UMASS MEMORIAL HOSPITAL had sent me notification to go to hospital website and register for the shots.
> 
> Went there 3 days later, no more appointments are being made, no more vaccine and no anticipated delivery.
> 
> But they got plenty for the F''KING prisoners in the jails and state prisons, and to make up for racial inequity, WTF???
> 
> Oh yeah, the homeless are already getting administered.


Not a vaccine. It is gene therapy treatment. Call it for what it is.

The experiment is for inmates, there? Be happy.


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## SOCOM42

Denton said:


> Not a vaccine. It is gene therapy treatment. Call it for what it is.
> 
> The experiment is for inmates, there? Be happy.


OK, call it gene splicing or whatever, at my age what do I loose, take it and die? Not take it and die?

I have two problems that make me a prime candidate for the treatment, I will take it when available.

Either way you could be rid of me from it.

I am not the 20-30 year old that would have said stuff it back then.

The regular flue almost killed me about 35 years ago, no flue shots, after brother insisted I get them, have ever since.


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## Denton

SOCOM42 said:


> OK, call it gene splicing or whatever, at my age what do I loose, take it and die? Not take it and die?
> 
> I have two problems that make me a prime candidate for the treatment, I will take it when available.
> 
> Either way you could be rid of me from it.
> 
> I am not a 20-30 year old that would have said stuff it back then.


I don't ever want to be rid of you, old man. You aren't someone on the internet, to me. You are family. You probably don't understand the thoughts of this youngun, but look back at someone who you saw as the man of men and you'll understand.


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## Denton

Well, isn't this cute? The Zuck doesn't trust the "Vax," either.
https://bigleaguepolitics.com/leake...-views-that-would-get-him-banned-on-facebook/

I wonder why Gates won't take vaccines (presumably, gene therapy treatments, either) and won't let his family do so, either.
Actually, I don't wonder why. That comment was rhetorical.


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## Denton

Smitty901 said:


> Vaccine did not alter my DNA. Did not kill me. Will it protect others around me we shall see.


Did not kill you. That you know. The rest? As you say, we shall see.


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## 23897

Wedrownik said:


> While c19 has a high survival rate it is more virulent which means more people get infected with it. So in the aspect of a nation more folks die from something that's more virulent.


Please provide evidence for this lie. 
Provide evidence that a new strain is both more virulent AND more people will die. Prove that a virus's aim is not in fact to replicate but to kill the host and that a changed genome to provide more virulence is at least as deadly.

I'll wait.

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## 23897

Wedrownik said:


> Anyways, I'm still waiting for my superpower... patience is definitely not it....


There was once another drug, originally a sedative, that was prescribed for a cure to the common cold. Pharmaceutical companies told us how safe it was. No adverse reactions. In fact, in animal studies they couldn't find a lethal dose. It was sold without prescription. Funnily enough the ONE country that didn't approve its use was the US. Everywhere else the useful drug Thalidomide was sold. How long before the world realised the side effects? How many doses were taken in that time?

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## Wedrownik

fangfarrier said:


> Please provide evidence for this lie.
> Provide evidence that a new strain is both more virulent AND more people will die. Prove that a virus's aim is not in fact to replicate but to kill the host and that a changed genome to provide more virulence is at least as deadly.
> 
> I'll wait.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not even going to bother. Why? If I post CDC miners for how many people are infected you'll say theyre government lies so take what I day at face value or not.

Number of people who got C19 in 2020 is higher then number of people that got the flu in any given other year.

This is complicated though because as I stated before it is hard to gauge then side by side as i do not think we ever knew how many folks really got the flu as not everyone who did got tested.

Looking at something else: hospitals were more overloaded both in regular hospitalizations as well as ICU in 2020 then any other year.

Btw i'm not talking about a specific c19 strain being more virulent, I'm talking about c19 in comparison to the flu.

What I would like to see is worldwide numbers by country showing death totals analysis in each country year by year including 2020. You could easily discern a pattern and deviations there.


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## MisterMills357

Wedrownik said:


> Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.
> 
> My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....


Man, you are a Martian,or a heartless bean counter.. Or you are a Libertaian, which is about the same thing.



Sasquatch said:


> So we itemize everything that puts someone at higher risk and charge them more?
> 
> Say I enjoy skydiving, diving with sharks, shooting guns motorcross and bungee jumping. Do I have to pay more or give up the activities I enjoy because I've now been charged out of doing them? Sounds like my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are being stomped on by a tax.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yes you have to pay more, because normal people do not jump out of planes, the other sports are OK. Have fun with those, but parachuting is just asking to die.

PS: for the new guys, I have 25 static line jumps from Hueys & C-130 aircraft. I am being a smart Alec.


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## Wedrownik

MisterMills357 said:


> Wedrownik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not that simple... I get taxed through the nose and pay a crapload for medical insurance since company went away from being self insured to an exchange couple years back.
> 
> My point is that it is a complicated topic and while I respect folks' right not to take the shot, rest of the population should not bear the burden. Same goes with folks who choose not to get insured - rest of the population should not bear the cost of them not paying the bills....
> 
> 
> 
> Man, you are a Martian,or a heartless bean counter.. Or you are a Libertaian, which is about the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Sasquatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we itemize everything that puts someone at higher risk and charge them more?
> 
> Say I enjoy skydiving, diving with sharks, shooting guns motorcross and bungee jumping. Do I have to pay more or give up the activities I enjoy because I've now been charged out of doing them? Sounds like my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are being stomped on by a tax.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes you have to pay more, because normal people do not jump out of planes, the other sports are OK. Have fun with that.
Click to expand...

So do we live in a socialist country where everyone has to cover everyone else?

Insurance companies is are businesses that do a cost risk analysis. They evaluate who does what and allocate costs appropriately.

Another example of insurance is life insurance which is even strict in the what needs to be covered and under what conditions so that they dont go out of business on payouts.


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## Chiefster23

MisterMills357 said:


> Man, you are a Martian,or a heartless bean counter.. Or you are a Libertaian, which is about the same thing.
> 
> Yes you have to pay more, because normal people do not jump out of planes, the other sports are OK. Have fun with that.


Let me play the devil's advocate here. I live in PA. We do not have hurricanes here and damned few tornadoes. So should I have to pay higher homeowners insurance to subsidize the idiots who continue to rebuild in hurricane alley or continue to rebuild below sea level in New Orleans? I recently called my insurance company to inquire if I would be paying an increased premium to subsidize the lefties that are being attacked by the wackos in the pacific northwest. I didn't receive an answer. How bout it? You want to pay higher insurance premiums to subsidize people who purposely take high risks or deliberately live in high risk areas?

Sasquatch. You don't want your rights and freedoms to be stomped on by paying a higher tax but you got no problem with my rights and freedoms being stomped on by me being forced to pay more to subsidize your risky behavior? Not looking for an arguement here, just trying to call attention to the facts viewed from a different angle.


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## Denton

If we want to play the "pay higher insurance" game, I'll then suggest higher insurance rates for those who take a poorly tested gene therapy treatment that carry these dangers:



> Finally, because the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine trials lasted only eight weeks, we know almost nothing about the long-term risks of those vaccines, including the very real risks for an enhanced and dangerous immune reaction known as antibody-dependent enhancement, or pathogenic priming - violent and deadly reactions that occur when vaccinated subjects encounter wild coronaviruses. This dangerous reaction has affected all past coronavirus vaccines in decades of research.
> 
> An April 2020 study in the Journal of Translational Autoimmunity suggests that "Pathogenic priming likely contributes to serious and critical illness and mortality in COVID-19 via autoimmunity." The authors note that "the same may apply post-vaccination."
> 
> A January 2021 peer-reviewed article in Microbiology and Infectious Diseases by former National Institutes of Health contract scientist, Dr. J. Bart Classen, M.D., suggests that mRNA vaccines may cause a prion disease similar to Mad Cow Disease, that can trigger:
> 
> "ALS, front temporal lobar degeneration, Alzheimer's disease and other neurological degenerative diseases. The enclosed finding as well as additional potential risks leads the author to believe that regulatory approval of the RNA based vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 was premature and that the vaccine may cause much more harm than benefit."
> 
> There is also a serious risk from autoimmune disease that might remain hidden for years. During the 2009 swine flu pandemic, GlaxoSmithKline won Emergency Use Authorization for its shoddily tested Pandemrix vaccine. Before the regulators withdrew Pandemrix a few months later, it caused a wave of debilitating and permanent neurological injuries, including narcolepsy and catalepsy, across Europe.
> 
> We are already seeing injuries reported from the mRNA vaccines, including:
> 
> Persistent malaise and extreme exhaustion.
> Severe allergic reactions, including anaphylactic reactions.
> Multisystem inflammatory syndrome.
> Chronic seizures and convulsions.
> Paralysis, including Bell's Palsy.


https://www.theburningplatform.com/...n-coroners-office-never-saw-hank-aarons-body/


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## MisterMills357

Chiefster23 said:


> Let me play the devil's advocate here. I live in PA. We do not have hurricanes here and damned few tornadoes. So should I have to pay higher homeowners insurance to subsidize the idiots who continue to rebuild in hurricane alley or continue to rebuild below sea level in New Orleans?
> 
> I recently called my insurance company to inquire if I would be paying an increased premium to subsidize the lefties that are being attacked by the wackos in the pacific northwest. I didn't receive an answer. How bout it? You want to pay higher insurance premiums to subsidize people who purposely take high risks or deliberately live in high risk areas?
> 
> Sasquatch. You don't want your rights and freedoms to be stomped on by paying a higher tax but you got no problem with my rights and freedoms being stomped on by me being forced to pay more to subsidize your risky behavior? Not looking for an arguement here, just trying to call attention to the facts viewed from a different angle.


No, you should not have to pay more, but you will be forced to, you know it and I know it. It is one of the smaller outrages of being an American now a days. But you also know that the government comes to the rescue, over and over again. I do not want people to suffer, but they will anyway.

Pinellas County and Hillsboro County (Tampa- St Pete) would be annihilated in a Cat 4 storm, by flooding. I don't have a good answer. The people here almost fight to live on the water, and they nearly beg to take a mortgage of $400,000 for condos that are 3 miles from downtown. There is more money than sense here.

They should be forced to pay more for insurance, because if they can afford a $400,000 condo, or a $2,000,000 house, then they can afford $25,000 a year for insurance.

But you know that the government would print more money, to aid the people. We are printing funny money already; please show me how we get out of the trap that we are in.


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## Smitty901

Denton said:


> If we want to play the "pay higher insurance" game, I'll then suggest higher insurance rates for those who take a poorly tested gene therapy treatment that carry these dangers:
> 
> https://www.theburningplatform.com/...n-coroners-office-never-saw-hank-aarons-body/


 On this we could agree. We should should charge higher rates for those that golf. they get hit by light and have a fair number of heart attacks while golfing. Those that engage in liberal approved sports like skiing should pay more and high risk snow boarding.
Beer drinkers should pay many times more.


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## Denton

MisterMills357 said:


> No, you should not have to pay more, but you will be forced to, you know it and I know it. It is one of the smaller outrages of being an American now a days. But you also know that the government comes to the rescue, over and over again. I do not want people to suffer, but they will anyway. Pinellas County and Hillsboro County would be annihilated in a Cat 4 storm, by flooding. I don't have a good answer.
> 
> But you know that the government would print more money, to aid the people.


Here's the thing. Tampa/St. Pete? Port. Miami? Port. Panama City, Mobile, New Orleans, etc? Yup; ports. Kind of hard to have ports in Indiana.
We need those ports. Should those people pay higher rates so that cargo can be brought into the nation?

Panama City is a big-time tourist city. Yankees traveling to P.C. on HWY 231 make Dothan traffic worse than it usually is. Same with HWY 331. Do these same people think that those who live in and around P.C. should pay higher insurance because they live there and keep P.C. going so that those from northern states have a chance to enjoy the Gulf of Mexico?
By the way; they do pay higher insurance rates due the risks, just like those in the DFW area pay higher auto insurance rates than I do.


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## MisterMills357

Denton said:


> Here's the thing. Tampa/St. Pete? Port. Miami? Port. Panama City, Mobile, New Orleans, etc? Yup; ports. Kind of hard to have ports in Indiana.
> We need those ports. Should those people pay higher rates so that cargo can be brought into the nation?
> 
> Panama City is a big-time tourist city. Yankees traveling to P.C. on HWY 231 make Dothan traffic worse than it usually is. Same with HWY 331. Do these same people think that those who live in and around P.C. should pay higher insurance because they live there and keep P.C. going so that those from northern states have a chance to enjoy the Gulf of Mexico?
> By the way; they do pay higher insurance rates due the risks, just like those in the DFW area pay higher auto insurance rates than I do.


I am going to the park, Joes Creek Preserve to be exact, and I am taking lunch with me, a couple of burritos and a Sprite.

And I am doing it for the sake of my mind , because these doom and gloom posts, are bumming me out.:laugh:


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## Denton

MisterMills357 said:


> I am going to the park, Joes Creek Preserve to be exact, and I am taking lunch with me, a couple of burritos and a Sprite.
> 
> And I am doing it for the sake of my mind , because these doom and gloom posts, are bumming me out.:laugh:


Enjoy!
I'll soon be going over to my folks' place with BBQ and all the sides. :tango_face_smile:


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## Chiefster23

I will say one thing for these posts, they sure make me think hard about my positions on things. That’s in addition to learning new facts from the links.
One thing for sure, there’s a lot of socialism in our insurance industry. In a completely free market capitalist system people would pay premiums based mostly on risk. But because of government regulations, insurance companies are forced to insure high risk individuals so everybody pays more to compensate. That’s socialism, pure and simple.


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