# Tough choice



## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

Well......I recently posted a thread about which i should buy, an AR or AK. Quickly learned that is a touchy subject haha.. I have since decided at this time i am going to direct my funds towards stocking more food, water and ammo for the existing guns i own instead of adding another to the mix. I don't feel comfortable with the amount of 12ga or 40S&W i have on hand at the moment; I feel i need to double what i currently have before adding more to the mix. Plus the $700-$1000 spent on an AR or AK would be a lot of money towards other preps. In my area a handgun and a 12ga would do the job....Not to much out past 75yds around Kokomo to worry about.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2014)

what about a hunting rifle? AR-15 is kinda unnecessary in my opinion..cool and fun but a bit expensive too. if it were me with 1000 dollars id get 2 .22 rifles and a nice hunting rifle. 1000 is the low range on those things, and that's not including the expensive ammo either. to each their own tho


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

nightshade said:


> what about a hunting rifle? AR-15 is kinda unnecessary in my opinion..cool and fun but a bit expensive too. if it were me with 1000 dollars id get 2 .22 rifles and a nice hunting rifle. 1000 is the low range on those things, and that's not including the expensive ammo either. to each their own tho


Iv'e given up completely on anything .22, around here there hasn't been any .22 ammo on the shelf for at least 8months, maybe longer. The people who do have it want $60-75 a brick. I will eventually add a 30-06 for hunting and an AR for defense but i want to get my stock up to where i am comfortable first.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Get the AR NOW before it's too late. Prices are down,the markets glutted. Magazines are cheap and plentiful as in ammo
You should be able to get a quality AR for $600, 10 metal 30 rd mags for $70 or 10 PMags for $100,1000 223/556 for $350. One place has the M855 clones for $320 shipped this week

For a $1000 you would be well on your way for quality AR and accesories.
PM me for details.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

There are quite a few military and commercial 30--6's on gun broker for prices that won't break the bank. I got a 1950 M-98 about two years ago and it's a great shooter


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

Look into a Ruger American chambered in .308. It's a very inexpensive, well built bolt action hunting rifle.


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

AquaHull said:


> Get the AR NOW before it's too late. Prices are down,the markets glutted. Magazines are cheap and plentiful as in ammo
> You should be able to get a quality AR for $600, 10 metal 30 rd mags for $70 or 10 PMags for $100,1000 223/556 for $350. One place has the M855 clones for $320 shipped this week
> 
> For a $1000 you would be well on your way for quality AR and accesories.
> PM me for details.


I know they are, but like i said for what i need an AR is not a need, its more a want. I will be purchasing one before the end of the year though. Right now i need more food, water and ammo.


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

Iv'e got the following in ammo:

12ga-
550-00Buck
75-000Buck
400-#6 shot
250-BBB for Goose
40- Slugs

40S&W-
75-JHP
220-FMJ

I want this amount on hand:

12ga-

1000 of each

40-
1000-JHP 
5000-FMJ


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

um. like already pointed out, a basic hunting rifle in a common calibre... (308??) and you will have your well rounded stock, then build up as much ammo as your hearts content, having 5000 shotgun rounds won't give you your balance, and nothing stops you putting a lay buy on the ar you want to lock in that nice price @ $20 a week.... just saying


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

AR upper 
PSA CHF MID-Length 5.56/.223 Upper Receiver Group

Palmetto has complete lowers for $129,add the BCG and Charge handle for $120. You got a kick ass AR for $550


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

Do you think a bolt action rifle in .223 would be useful? The reason i ask is because i can buy that then an AR chambered in .223/5.56 and the ammo would be interchangeable. I'm really not to interested in the .308 round, Idk why but im just not.


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

I owned a Savage Axis in .223, it was nice. IMO


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Good or great hunting rifle does not replace the duty an AR fills. Never did never will. AR and AK should never be mentioned at the same time ,two totally different weapons share nothing in common other than they fire a round. Do not confuse close combat with a full auto with the world you may deal with using a semi auto..
AR kicks the AK's ass all over town and open fields


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## ordnance21xx (Jan 29, 2014)

jbrooks19 said:


> I know they are, but like i said for what i need an AR is not a need, its more a want. I will be purchasing one before the end of the year though. Right now i need more food, water and ammo.


Here is a vid: 



. take a look CMP rifles are only $350.00 not bad but heavy.

MOLON LABE


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I kind of agree with the guys around here. Every job has the proper tool. IMHO a shotgun is a good first long gun, it has it's limitations. Unless you've got a whole bunch of sabot slugs and a rifled barrel for the shotgun, I think 50 yards would be pushing your luck. Another problem with a shotgun is ammunition capacity. An AR or AK gives you a lot more rounds to put down range in a hurry and reload time is a lot faster. I prefer the AR, personally preference probably due to time in service. Also I figure ammo might be available by scrounging and I prefer the better range offered by the AR. But AR or AK is up to you. I'd suggest you find a friend who can let you handle and shoot each and make up your mind that way. My wife prefers the AR due to weight and low recoil. I also feel a .22LR is a good investment for small game. It took me a long time to get to where I feel comfortable with the tools I have. 
*After I'm gone, the biggest fear I have is that my wife will sell all my tools for what she thinks I paid for them!*


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

J, I am familiar with your terrain. You can get some really long shots in your area. Not in town, obviously, though I would love to shoot some of your danged traffic signals!

What is your prepping scenario? I can see a .308 chambered weapon being beneficial, depending on the situation. I can also see a semi-automatic (such as the AR-10) being beneficial, too.

Darned thing of it is, no weapon is the universal, one size fits all. That's the aggravating thing about weaponry, covering all the bases takes cash and time.

On a side note, every time a new traffic signal pops up, I mutter, "Pretty soon this place is going to be another Kokomo!" :lol:


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> J, I am familiar with your terrain. You can get some really long shots in your area. Not in town, obviously, though I would love to shoot some of your danged traffic signals!
> 
> What is your prepping scenario? I can see a .308 chambered weapon being beneficial, depending on the situation. I can also see a semi-automatic (such as the AR-10) being beneficial, too.
> 
> ...


I am the low profile kind of guy when it comes to prepping.. I'm thinking stay at my residence as long as i can, then move to the family farm after that. I think a good bolt action would be useful since the farm has a lot of wide open area around it.


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

jbrooks19 said:


> I am the low profile kind of guy when it comes to prepping.. I'm thinking stay at my residence as long as i can, then move to the family farm after that. I think a good bolt action would be useful since the farm has a lot of wide open area around it.


Wide open areas= .308


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

sparkyprep said:


> Wide open areas= .308


Don't rule out a 30/06


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

jbrooks19 said:


> I am the low profile kind of guy when it comes to prepping.. I'm thinking stay at my residence as long as i can, then move to the family farm after that. I think a good bolt action would be useful since the farm has a lot of wide open area around it.


Yeah, you'll want a heavier round at the farm.

Are you looking to use it to defend the farm, or to hunt?

Not sure about the staying in town as long as you can idea, depending on the situation. The longer you stay, the harder it'll be to get out. You might also get to the farm only to find unwanted visitors.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm going to change direction just a tad. I'm a firm believer that every rifleman should have a 30 caliber rifle. Bolt action, semi auto, whatever.
I have a few, but one of the last rifles I would part with is my Winchester Model 94 lever action 30-30. It is compact, handy, faster to fire than a bolt action, the 30-30 round will do an excellent job on deer or man at reasonable ranges. And Hornady Lever Evolution flex tip ammo has increased that range.
You should be able to pick up a used Winchester or Marlin for $300, or less.


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## Rekkr870 (Jun 25, 2014)

Ahhhh the AR vs. AK debate. Timeless. Pick which platform you are most comfortable with. Both are very capable weapons and will serve you well. Make sure you get a quality rifle when you decide to purchase. A great starter rifle for the AR is the Colt 6920. A great starter AK is the Arsenal SGL-21 or 31. You can get either of the rifles for well under a grand if you look hard enough.

A smart man once said , " An AR is more reliable than you think and an AK is more accurate than you think." This is very true if you start with a quality rifle.

I have personally shot 1" groups with an Arsenal SLR-107.

I have also rang steel and taken game consistently at 450+ meters with an AR and a variable power scope. So much for the "puny" 5.56mm.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

jbrooks19 said:


> Iv'e given up completely on anything .22, around here there hasn't been any .22 ammo on the shelf for at least 8months, maybe longer. The people who do have it want $60-75 a brick.


FWIW, that problem is easily solved...

GunBot 22lr rimfire ammo


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2014)

jbrooks19 said:


> Iv'e given up completely on anything .22, around here there hasn't been any .22 ammo on the shelf for at least 8months, maybe longer. The people who do have it want $60-75 a brick. I will eventually add a 30-06 for hunting and an AR for defense but i want to get my stock up to where i am comfortable first.


I see, that does pose a problem. what do you mean by brick in count? it's good to focus and enforce what you have and then move on, good thinking.


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

nightshade said:


> I see, that does pose a problem. what do you mean by brick in count? it's good to focus and enforce what you have and then move on, good thinking.


Brick is 500rds


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> Yeah, you'll want a heavier round at the farm.
> 
> Are you looking to use it to defend the farm, or to hunt?
> 
> Not sure about the staying in town as long as you can idea, depending on the situation. The longer you stay, the harder it'll be to get out. You might also get to the farm only to find unwanted visitors.


I live on the edge of Kokomo so getting out won't be to bad.. I'm looking to use it for defense and hunting. I have a good 500+yards in all directions around the farm that I can see so they shouldn't be able of get very close.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

jbrooks19 said:


> I live on the edge of Kokomo so getting out won't be to bad.. I'm looking to use it for defense and hunting. I have a good 500+yards in all directions around the farm that I can see so they shouldn't be able of get very close.


Just realize that even during or right after a society upheaval claiming self defense after shooting someone at 500 yards may not work.
Something to keep in mind.
I'm a realist, I just don't think that American society will sink to the depths of roving bands of marauders travelling around killing homesteaders and stealing their stuff. Perhaps in large cities that are already out of control, but not in Indiana farm country.


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Just realize that even during or right after a society upheaval claiming self defense after shooting someone at 500 yards may not work.
> Something to keep in mind.
> I'm a realist, I just don't think that American society will sink to the depths of roving bands of marauders travelling around killing homesteaders and stealing their stuff. Perhaps in large cities that are already out of control, but not in Indiana farm country.


Pray for the best, prepare for the worst... I honestly doubt it would get that bad, I agree with you. But if it did and it got to the point of having to take a target at 550yds I want to know I'm equipped to do so.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

jbrooks19 said:


> Pray for the best, prepare for the worst... I honestly doubt it would get that bad, I agree with you. But if it did and it got to the point of having to take a target at 550yds I want to know I'm equipped to do so.


Well, in that case do it right. Springfield Armory M1A Standard Model. Not one of the "tacticool" Scout Models, or a National Match, or a Loaded, just a plain Standard Model.
Mine is a 1994 that contains mostly USGI parts. It is as close to the M14's that Uncle Sam issued to me that I can get. 
And the M14 was the last true US military battle rifle.
When my eyes were young I could hit a target the size of a man's torso at 500 meters with an M14 using iron sights. That is not a testament to my ability, rather the ability of the rifle.
Yeah, it's going to set you back close to $2,000 for the rifle, USGI web sling, bayonet, 5 or 6 magazines, a couple ammo pouches and a web pistol belt, but why settle for less than the best?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Perhaps i should state my personal reasons as to the specific model.
Scout - shortened barrel is incapable of mounting a bayonet, and can not get full potential of the 308/7.62NATO round. (If you are suprised by an enemy during a magazine change, a mounted bayonet could save the day)
National Match - the iron sights are designed for punching paper, not rapid target aquisition. The apeture in the rear sight is smaller for this reason. **Factoid: the USGI front sight blade on an M14 is a range estimator against humans - if a standing man appears to be the same height as the blade, the range is 200 meters. 
Loaded - the barrel is stainless steel. If I'm hiding in the bushes, the last thing I want is something shiney in my hands to reveal my position.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I'm going to change direction just a tad. I'm a firm believer that every rifleman should have a 30 caliber rifle. Bolt action, semi auto, whatever.
> I have a few, but one of the last rifles I would part with is my Winchester Model 94 lever action 30-30. It is compact, handy, faster to fire than a bolt action, the 30-30 round will do an excellent job on deer or man at reasonable ranges. And Hornady Lever Evolution flex tip ammo has increased that range.
> You should be able to pick up a used Winchester or Marlin for $300, or less.


RPD,
A short while back I posted about the Winchester Model 94, great minds think a-like! Anyway, what little research I have done, the pre 1964 Win 94 in .30-30 is the optimum model. (from what I read)

Assuming I cannot find a pre 64 rifle and decide to buy new, which one is your choice? 
Model 94 -- Winchester Repeating Arms -- Product Family


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Slippy said:


> RPD,
> A short while back I posted about the Winchester Model 94, great minds think a-like! Anyway, what little research I have done, the pre 1964 Win 94 in .30-30 is the optimum model. (from what I read)
> 
> Assuming I cannot find a pre 64 rifle and decide to buy new, which one is your choice?
> Model 94 -- Winchester Repeating Arms -- Product Family


Pre 64's command steep prices. If you are not interested in collectibility, just a good serviceable rifle, any late model will be fine. In fact, FN Herstal (of FN-FAL fame) made them from 1992 to the end of the Connecticut era in 2006. FN does not make junk.
Since production resumed in 2009 they are made by Miroku in Japan. Miroku also makes rifles for Browning. They are quality arms and are priced appropriately. In other words, out of my price range.:shock:
Mine is a 94AE (angle eject) carbine in the 6 million serial number range, with the cross bolt safety, which dates it sometime between 1992 and 2003 when the tang safety was introduced. A very basic model.
I bought it used in 2006 when the announcement was made that Winchester was shutting down, paid $300 at a local pawn shop.

I also have a 1972 Marlin 336 Texan, which has a straight grip butt stock like a Winchester. It was an offer I could not refuse - a co worker who was a heavy drinker needed alcohol money and offered it to me for $100.

Every serious rifleman, and every serious enthusiast of Americana, should own a Winchester or Marlin 30-30. They are as American as hot jazz. Plus they have a very high fondle factor.:-D


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Good stuff RPD, thanks!
Americana is our style! 
Speaking of hot jazz, I was in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago and got to listen to some good jazz. Firing a quality rifle is somewhat like a good jazz rift. 
On a side note, give us the countdown to retirement.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

just to let ya all know the m14 and the Fn fal SLR are dream rifles (to me anyway)

the m14 has a massive amount of history and the SLR was standard issue for Anzac forces throughout the cold war (and both are from a time where quality meant something) both class D in Queensland firearm restrictions.... (just FYI)


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Slippy said:


> Good stuff RPD, thanks!
> Americana is our style!
> Speaking of hot jazz, I was in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago and got to listen to some good jazz. Firing a quality rifle is somewhat like a good jazz rift.
> On a side note, give us the countdown to retirement.


Retirement has been postponed. I need a total knee replacement and at my wife's urging we will have it done while we have company insurance rather than let the VA do it. Hers cost us about $8,000 out of pocket (each). The VA will do it for free, but I'm thinking my future happiness will be greater having a better job done to begin with. As they say in business: "The cheapest price is not always the best price."
So, instead of working until December, I'm going to continue on into 2015. Besides, we need a new roof on the house.
I'm already collecting SS and a small pension from a previous employer, so I actually could walk tomorrow, but I've got it easy. My boss's office is almost 200 miles away and I only see him once or twice a year.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Retirement has been postponed. I need a total knee replacement and at my wife's urging we will have it done while we have company insurance rather than let the VA do it. Hers cost us about $8,000 out of pocket (each). The VA will do it for free, but I'm thinking my future happiness will be greater having a better job done to begin with. As they say in business: "The cheapest price is not always the best price."
> So, instead of working until December, I'm going to continue on into 2015. Besides, we need a new roof on the house.
> I'm already collecting SS and a small pension from a previous employer, so I actually could walk tomorrow, but I've got it easy. My boss's office is almost 200 miles away and I only see him once or twice a year.


10-4
Best of luck with the knee replacement. You know the drill since your better half had it twice...do the REHAB!!!!!!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> For slippy and RPD. Arklatex saddle/door gun. Older marlin 336 straight stock.
> 
> View attachment 5829
> 
> ...


Thanks Arkla!
I be envious!


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## Purkeypilot (Dec 21, 2012)

pheniox17 said:


> just to let ya all know the m14 and the Fn fal SLR are dream rifles (to me anyway)
> 
> the m14 has a massive amount of history and the SLR was standard issue for Anzac forces throughout the cold war (and both are from a time where quality meant something) both class D in Queensland firearm restrictions.... (just FYI)


pheniox, what does Class D entail?


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Ultimately YOU are the one best situated to decide what YOU need for prepping. If you have decided that you are better served directing the money towards more food and ammo for the firearms that you have on hand then to purchase more firearms, then I for one am not criticizing you for your choice. I would suggest, and suggest only, that you might want to consider getting a rifled barrel for you shotgun sometime down the road. It will give you a nice additional range to your weapon. At any rate, a 12 gauge with the various types of loads you can get for it, is a very versatile firearm, both for hunting and defense if as you say most of the time targets will be under 75 yards.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

You could always go with a .308 AR and solve two issues with one gun. The prices of the LAR 308 from DPMS have gone way down since they introduced their G2 line.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Purkeypilot said:


> pheniox, what does Class D entail?


"military" style firearms, semi auto with a cap of more than 10 round magazine (its bs...) in summary then I have to prove why I need it :/

Australians are lazy, firearms/weapon license is in the following categories (again more for freedom of info)

class A-D (rifles, from paint guns/air rifles to shot guns, and mil type)

class H (all hand guns, under .40, anything over 40 is illegal and there is mag restriction)

class M (special, cross bows, body armor, martial arts weapons, and other random crap that can't be classified)

I hope they never put our firearm laws into the USA.... it won't work... (even now airsoft is illegal, WTF!!)


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

pheniox17 said:


> "military" style firearms, semi auto with a cap of more than 10 round magazine (its bs...) in summary then I have to prove why I need it :/
> 
> Australians are lazy, firearms/weapon license is in the following categories (again more for freedom of info)
> 
> ...


You need to move to Kokomo, IN USA...... We would have a lot of fun my friend!


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

pheniox17 said:


> "military" style firearms, semi auto with a cap of more than 10 round magazine (its bs...) in summary then I have to prove why I need it :/
> 
> Australians are lazy, firearms/weapon license is in the following categories (again more for freedom of info)
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity do they have limits on how much ammo you can stockpile there in Aussie?


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

jbrooks19 said:


> Just out of curiosity do they have limits on how much ammo you can stockpile there in Aussie?


yep, just you can't have excessive amounts, but there is no definition on it, just you can't stockpile excessive amounts of ammo.... (your guess is as good as mine)

to the other I won't move to the USA, between population density, and the threats you guys face (as preppers) and been at ground zero in what ever is around the corner...

new Zealand is my absolute back up plan.... and I hope I don't have to act on it


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

pheniox17 said:


> yep, just you can't have excessive amounts, but there is no definition on it, just you can't stockpile excessive amounts of ammo.... (your guess is as good as mine)
> 
> to the other I won't move to the USA, between population density, and the threats you guys face (as preppers) and been at ground zero in what ever is around the corner...
> 
> new Zealand is my absolute back up plan.... and I hope I don't have to act on it


It just seems so alien to me to have weapons restrictions..In Indiana we have no mag capacity limits, you can own anything but full auto (Unless you file for it) and anything except explosives.... I pray we never get to the point of having major restrictions..


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

jbrooks19 said:


> It just seems so alien to me to have weapons restrictions..In Indiana we have no mag capacity limits, you can own anything but full auto (Unless you file for it) and anything except explosives.... I pray we never get to the point of having major restrictions..


if they do it won't work, and you see it in crime rates, yes gun crime is down, glassing and stabbings are high,


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

pheniox17 said:


> if they do it won't work, and you see it in crime rates, yes gun crime is down, glassing and stabbings are high,


I think if they do, I would probably get a shotgun hidden somewhere for a rainy day...None of my guns are registered, Indiana dosn't require it. So they don't know what i have


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> Wow... no handguns over .40??? That's just crazy. And it's also good proof that .45 is the king of the handguns. Lol


Queensland piglets are armed with a glock chambered for 40 s&w

so anything above that scares them, really go through all the trouble, get a license, then a permit to acquire, then go shoot up cops with it.... logic = 0


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