# Looting or surviving



## Jeep

A couple of weeks a go a member posted that he would hot wire a boat and get. He got his shit jumped in for stealing. Now I am not one to wait and watch to throw a rock through a window and loot a place for the goodies. But at what point do you make a decision to go to a mostly deserted place or even still in chaos and "salvage" what you can for you and yours ? Here I know most of the store owners if its a local business. If I find them dead but they have 3 cans of corn beef hash still on the shelf am I wrong for taking it. I think not. There has to be a time when surviving a disaster where no laws exist anymore and free for all is on, that you need to go get what you can. Now let the beatings begin


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## HuntingHawk

If you think things are yours for the taking you shouldn't be surprised if you get shot.


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## jeff70

I am not one to steal, or loot, but when all laws are null and void I am going to do what I need to do for my family to survive.


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## Hemi45

Dead shopkeeper who has no need for those few remaining cans - no problem. Killing the shopkeeper for those few remaining cans - problem.


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## RNprepper

History is full of examples of people doing anything for survival, including cannibalism and eating babies. We all hope that we would be "above" looting, stealing, and certainly murder for cannibalism, but how do you really know what you would actually do? There is a prayer in the Bible that goes something like, " Oh Lord, do not give me so much wealth that I would become proud in my own self sufficiency, nor poverty that I would steal." Both are part of the human condition, and humans are capable of any behavior when survival is at stake. Individuals WILL endure extreme suffering, torture, and death for strongly held spiritual beliefs, however. For example, there are more Christians jailed, tortured, starved, and killed for their faith now than ever before in history, because they chose to lay down their lives rather than deny their God. Unless one has a firmly held belief in a purpose _higher_ than life, it is my personal opinion that anyone is capable of committing untold atrocities in order to preserve their own existence. I do not exclude myself. "But for the grace of God, there go I."


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## Sharkbait

^both of these-there is a difference between looting and scavenging.

Edit-(referring to Hemi and Jeff's post)


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## Slippy

Interesting question Jeep, one that I have thought about many times.

I have no definitive answer. But generally speaking there will be a breaking point.

The moment that I put a severed head on the Pike at the end of my driveway to announce that my place is off limits...will probably signify that there is no Rule of Law and the gloves are off.


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## Jeep

I know full well thr risks involved HH, but at what point is it looting. A month, a year, when do you decide that you need something that may be sitting there. I think the point was missed, I prep so I do not have to but I can't feasibly prep for the next 30-40 years of my life RIGHT NOW


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## RNprepper

Slippy said:


> Interesting question Jeep, one that I have thought about many times.
> 
> I have no definitive answer. But generally speaking there will be a breaking point.
> 
> The moment that I put a severed head on the Pike at the end of my driveway to announce that my place is off limits...will probably signify that there is no Rule of Law and the gloves are off.


Yup, I can see a severed head as representing a breaking point.


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## HuntingHawk

Only time I would consider scavenging would be if I was sure a place was abandoned.


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## Hemi45

Slippy said:


> The moment that I put a severed head on the Pike at the end of my driveway to announce that my place is off limits...will probably signify that there is no Rule of Law and the gloves are off.


Careful now, that could also be perceived as a dinner invitation by cannibals - lol!


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## Inor

I really do not look at SHTF that way. My entire focus is on gathering and keeping enough supplies to survive 12 months. Beyond that, my focus is on how to profit from the situation. Whether you call it looting or just reallocating a dead guy's resources to myself, it is just not something I have given any thought to. Hell, I might even partner up with Slippy in a shrunken head business.


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## Slippy

I think that in a real SHTF scenario, looting will quickly evolve into scavenging. Good point HH.


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## Slippy

Hemi45 said:


> Careful now, that could also be perceived as a dinner invitation by cannibals - lol!


Unless...they think I'm the cannibal.


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## Jeep

Now we are getting somewhere, with "scavenging", this is what I was looking for, as I said I won't break into a place or be waiting for employees to flee so I can pillage. And I'll take some Ribs Slippy


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## Maine-Marine

Slippy said:


> The moment that I put a severed head on the Pike at the end of my driveway to announce that my place is off limits...will probably signify that there is no Rule of Law and the gloves are off.


I have said before and I will say again...if I run across a place with heads on a fence/gate...I am going to assume that the people that are EVIL and need to be killed


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## Inor

If I run across a place with heads on fence posts, I'm going to start selling fence posts.


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## mack0369

I pride myself of stocking things that will hold inherit value that I will never need as much as I have. Anti-biotics, medical supplies, ammo, cheap handguns, etc. That way looting would not have to be an option. Present a hard target and make a trade. Everyone wins.


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## pheniox17

Well we all prep so assume we have stockpiles to avoid the risk involved in making the looting decision... 

But long term, no law, no order, no stability, in dog eat dog world, we will have no choice but consider it, but at this stage the risk is very hit and miss... 

But the question (thats asked often) should be really meditated on, at what point dose looting become salvaging?? And this is a event to event thought... 

There is no morally right or wrong correct response, but really risk access it... As on the other foot, people will want what you have, and you have to defend it or leave it... 

In my eyes, I'm prepared to cross that bridge, but won't truly access it till its needed... But I won't know when its needed till I face that bridge, and that's where I'm keeping those thoughts


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## 1skrewsloose

Folks get into rumbles for stuff at retail stores when on sale. When their life depends on it I don't see them backing down, only at the point of a gun. We all want to provide for ours, thankfully those parasites will be big city folk who won't make much past 3 days walking out of the metropolis jmo..


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## Maine-Marine

Inor said:


> I really do not look at SHTF that way. My entire focus is on gathering and keeping enough supplies to survive 12 months. Beyond that, my focus is on how to profit from the situation. Whether you call it looting or just reallocating a dead guy's resources to myself, it is just not something I have given any thought to. Hell, I might even partner up with Slippy in a shrunken head business.


I am in line with this... Come SHTF...I am not going to be wondering to far from home...my plan is to have enough stuff to outlast the really hard times...I will not be one of the people looting the local walmart the first month... if it is still standing 2-3 years down the road and society is gone...I may well take a walk through one

If I need something..sparkplug, nail, new shovel etc.... I might go into a neighbors house that has left, ..I will leave them a note.

now on another hand...I would not have an issue with taking state supplies which are not being used....Solar panels, batteries, salt piles, etc.

Abandoned cars on a highway, railroad cars??? as I have said many times..the event will matter....


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## Seneca

There is a definite line between looting and scavenging, What is obviously abandoned can be scavenged. What is obviously protected or under the control of others is theirs. Taking that is looting. 

I think getting a dinner invite post apocalypse, might have some strings attached to it. Like making sure you are not on the menu.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Slippy said:


> The moment that I put a severed head on the Pike at the end of my driveway to announce that my place is off limits...will probably signify that there is no Rule of Law and the gloves are off.


Dude, that's no way to treat your mother-in-law, it just isn't!


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## Maine-Marine

In a Dog eat Dog world..it is best to not get involved in the fight until you know who the good guys and bad guys are... Sometimes you end up with 2 bad dogs fighting - in which case you break out the popcorn and butter


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## Renec

I think defining the term "Looting" is important. I would not take from anyone that might be in need. 
but salvaging batteries from abandoned cars for med term to long term renewable power? acquiring small solar panels from public areas to recharge said batteries?
How about procuring the used fryer oil from the ransacked KFC for your diesel?How long is not long enough? There will be folks who hunker down and stay put.
I'm also willing to bet there will be salvagers who will barter with those same folk..acquiring goods from abandoned areas.I'm not saying that a person should ransack the local gunstore for additional ammo..that guy is gonna be guarding his stock,but he's also gonna need food,personal requests,and things like car batteries for power. I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't barter off ammo,weapons in exchange for a smoked hog and 4 car batteries and a few solar panels to charge them with. Especially if he had known our "trader" prior to the SHTF event.


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## Mad Trapper

Slippy said:


> Interesting question Jeep, one that I have thought about many times.
> 
> I have no definitive answer. But generally speaking there will be a breaking point.
> 
> The moment that I put a severed head on the Pike at the end of my driveway to announce that my place is off limits...will probably signify that there is no Rule of Law and the gloves are off.


.

Impale the whole looter on a pike still living. The rest will get the message. Poles did this to Turks and Tartars and that scared the hell out of them in the 1500-1600s. But that is not quite PC these days. We have Sotero who would rather golf than try to stop a beheading..


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## Jeep

Now this is getting better. But I think the term looting needed to be applied for definition. The difference between scavenging and salvaging and stealing. I don't expect 2 neighbors to last the year. But I may be wrong. But as the saying goes, when you die we are splitting your gear.


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## Renec

Stealing=taking someone else's stuff by force or stealth.
Looting=taking secured stuff by force
salvaging/scavenging=acquiring obviously abandoned items or public items.
again,it depends upon the situation I believe.Post SHTF..there will be a lot of abandoned stuff within just a few months.


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## paraquack

I know some will say it semantics, but stealing a small amount of food from an unoccupied building after the SHTF is not looting. Stealing the big screen TV is. I guess I'm justifying what I would have to do to stay alive.


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## Jeep

Agreed and some of what I was getting at.


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Some of the people in my group looked at the moral and ethical implications of post TEOTWAWKI survival. We came to the conclusion that law and order cease to exist when the bodies that create the law and the bodies that enforce the law cease to exist as well. At that point we are left with the opposing forces of competition and compassion. 

its all up for grabs and survival of the fittest will rule as law. We will be allowed to keep that which we can successfully defend.

I can see myself living and dying by a code of conduct, but watching my family starve to provide myself with the luxury of moral fiber would be selfish and wrong as well.


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## Renec

unless that big screen is going to be part of the video surveillance system that you managed to piece together from car batteries,small solar panels,traffic camera (found at every intersection in Phx),scavenged copper wire and CAT5e from local abandoned office buildings...see what I mean? If it's left behind,and can be put to good use,then why leave it?


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## Jeep

Well said and more of what I was looking for


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## alterego

I Decide When I Decide. Free Men Free Will. If There Is Rule Of Law To Judge Me After I Act. Then I Acted To Soon. If There Is No Rule Of Law To Judge Me Then I Survived. There Will Be No Reasonable Definition For This Thread.


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## Jeep

I lost you at the end. But no matter. What I continually think about is there is a huge truck stop 2 miles out of town. No lecture please I know what is there. Why would I set up here safe and sound while some White trash assholes go rummage through the place and destroy goods while they take what they want. Why should I not....if it is a definitely bad situation go down and secure goods for my family. Town Pump is a large corp. The owners won't be there. If things are that bad, then their insurance is null, so no more loss. Why should I not go and get Automotive stuff, Medical supplies and whatever. I like to think we are good people and I would rather get some free stuff than let it go to shitbags. 

And again I am not advocating open robbery. I am just asking questions


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## Arklatex

Hemi45 said:


> Dead shopkeeper who has no need for those few remaining cans - no problem. Killing the shopkeeper for those few remaining cans - problem.


Can't get a better answer than this IMO. To expand on it just replace "shopkeeper" with neighbors, or whoever else.

This is also the perfect time to bring up my favorite shotlady quote: "Nobody was looting work boots!"

Looting and scavenging are different mindsets for different types of people. Looters are scumbags while scavengers are survivors.


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## Zed

In post SHTF world, the most basic rule is: "The least you are seen, the longer you last"
Looting, pillaging, raping, killing, cannibalism etc will be common. Well as i said i'll be prepping for a scenario of 5 years..But still, just in case if my family is starving and i need to steal..i won't....in extreme case i'll go non-vegetarian just for survival, but i won't be hurting any other person directly or indirectly, the can i stole from grocery shop...may be the owner needs for his family...i'll ask, barter..But when we are victims, then in self defense, no bars at all.


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## Maine-Marine

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> Some of the people in my group looked at the moral and ethical implications of post TEOTWAWKI survival. We came to the conclusion that law and order cease to exist when the bodies that create the law and the bodies that enforce the law cease to exist as well. At that point we are left with the opposing forces of competition and compassion.
> 
> its all up for grabs and survival of the fittest will rule as law. We will be allowed to keep that which we can successfully defend.
> 
> I can see myself living and dying by a code of conduct, but watching my family starve to provide myself with the luxury of moral fiber would be selfish and wrong as well.


The above is a nice way of saying -"I will kill your family, your wife, kids, baby, mother and you...if I need it for my family to survive"

Its all up for grabs is a nice way of saying you are going to do for you and yours and screw anybody you do not know.

I am guessing that you will be one of the first ones dead...

I will be one of the ones that are keeping and enforcing a rule of law based on the teachings of Jesus Christ...Remember he did say to take a sword...

While you may choose competition, I will choose compassion...Chances are I will never run into you...but there are plenty like you and hopefully...I can rid the world of a few of you before I kick off.

Only those that show compassion are worthy to receive it!


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## Maine-Marine

Jeep said:


> I like to think we are good people and I would rather get some free stuff than let it go to shitbags.
> 
> And again I am not advocating open robbery. I am just asking questions


Because as soon as you start looting you become one of them...and some of them will end up getting shot from a long distance by a large caliber rifle.

keep prepping and getting ready..then you do not have to be one of THEM


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## Zed

Maine-Marine said:


> The above is a nice way of saying -"I will kill your family, your wife, kids, baby, mother and you...if I need it for my family to survive"
> 
> Its all up for grabs is a nice way of saying you are going to do for you and yours and screw anybody you do not know.
> 
> I am guessing that you will be one of the first ones dead...
> 
> I will be one of the ones that are keeping and enforcing a rule of law based on the teachings of Jesus Christ...Remember he did say to take a sword...
> 
> While you may choose competition, I will choose compassion...Chances are I will never run into you...but there are plenty like you and hopefully...I can rid the world of a few of you before I kick off.
> 
> Only those that show compassion are worthy to receive it!


Bullseye Sir.

The basic problem with looting gangs is that they not only just loot others, but when time comes they will kill each other as well just for survival. When you fall down their is no return..You will go down till almost all humanity is ripped out of your soul.


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## CWOLDOJAX

Interesting thread, Jeep... is it stealing if there is no owner? I do not see myself killing to get someone else's stuff, as I sit in a place still called America.

I am one of those guys that actually reads the Bill of Rights and consider the 10 Commandments as the cornerstone for all law.
I am not a legalist because some laws are sins and I am not a perfect man because I sin against some laws.

If there is no owner is it stealing? The dichotomy is that you/I may see a storefront or and empty home with food available we can take and eat because there is no owner while in contrast observing a once-owner's family portraits, children's sporting trophies, etc. Perhaps a dead owner's first dollar neatly framed above the cash register while you walk out with 3 cans of corned beef hash.

Those who survive long enough to get to those cans of corned beef hash may not have a moral fiber at all... but they might. The white trash you mentioned at the truck stop are the evil which must be dealt with one day. They will be territorial like dogs. You may have to deal with them. The thin line here is not getting the supplies you need for your family but who do get them from evil doers or the owner?

Good brain-food. I need to chew on this a bit.


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## RNprepper

I agree that if the owner has abandoned the goods, they are free for the taking.A couch left at the curb is free, but taking a couch out of house when the owner is on vacation is stealing. However, if I head out to my BOL, how do others know that I have NOT abandoned my home? Do I leave a note so that the honest scavengers will leave it alone while the looters do what they want anyway? It feels different when the shoe is on the other foot.


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## Maine-Marine

CWOLDOJAX said:


> Interesting thread, Jeep... is it stealing if there is no owner? I do not see myself killing to get someone else's stuff, as I sit in a place still called America.
> 
> I am one of those guys that actually reads the Bill of Rights and consider the 10 Commandments as the cornerstone for all law.
> I am not a legalist because some laws are sins and I am not a perfect man because I sin against some laws.
> 
> If there is no owner is it stealing? The dichotomy is that you/I may see a storefront or and empty home with food available we can take and eat because there is no owner while in contrast observing a once-owner's family portraits, children's sporting trophies, etc. Perhaps a dead owner's first dollar neatly framed above the cash register while you walk out with 3 cans of corned beef hash.
> 
> Those who survive long enough to get to those cans of corned beef hash may not have a moral fiber at all... but they might. The white trash you mentioned at the truck stop are the evil which must be dealt with one day. They will be territorial like dogs. You may have to deal with them. The thin line here is not getting the supplies you need for your family but who do get them from evil doers or the owner?
> 
> Good brain-food. I need to chew on this a bit.


Above is a good post..

Since I have a good supply of stuff...I will not have to be out and about for some time...My main concern will be security for the first month/year????

By the time I am out and about...it will be about salvage


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## BagLady

Another good point RN. I hadnt thought of possibly having to board up or secure the house in the event we'd have to leave.


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## Hemi45

BagLady said:


> Another good point RN. I hadnt thought of possibly having to board up or secure the house in the event we'd have to leave.


Regardless of the precautions taken, if I had to leave my house, I'd expect it to be in ruins upon my return. Anything less would be a bonus.


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## RNprepper

Hemi45 said:


> Regardless of the precautions taken, if I had to leave my house, I'd expect it to be in ruins upon my return. Anything less would be a bonus.


But would the folks who took your stuff be looter,s, robbers, or scavengers?


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## pheniox17

The comment about white trash and also the chances they are armed... Avoiding conflict when people are @ 100% but if engaged when they are even at 80% gives you a advantage... 

A lot have pondered it, but those same ripe targets that we find worth while, are also the same targets the unprepared find worth while, and is that extra can of beans or the spare spark plug worth risking your life?? 

The risk to potential gain... Just is not there (I have plenty of local targets worth taking if your unprepared, but then I looked at it again, through other pages and even old conversions here, we are not having unique ideas on worth while targets that are valuable to raid... So its worth rightfully assuming that others have the same plan, and zombie appoc conversations come up a lot on fb and such, again nothing unique... ) 

So as a liked minded person i bet, you are able to think worse case, so with thinking hords of zombies (by any deffanition) how many people do you need??


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

This exercise can really help a person to peer into the future and try to see what their endgame is. Without literal lifetime supplies, what are we willing to do to survive? Will we eventually become the same unprepared that we are wanting to defend our homes from now?

Where do we draw the line? Is there a line? Just what is justifiable?

I do not have 50 years of food and supplies stored away. It would be a horrible shame to switch from prepper to predator some day. 

I can only hope my plans for self sufficient, self reliant survival/recovery work out.

This all reminds me of a conversation I had once on wilderness survival....My friend asked "Why not just set fire to a section of the woods? You'll be found in a matter of hours." Maybe he had a point after all.


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## RNprepper

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> It would be a horrible shame to switch from prepper to predator some day.
> 
> 
> 
> This is EXACTLY what I am concerned about. The zombies will be gone in a few months. But in 6-12 months, the preppers who run out of food (and who have not gotten alternate food sources established) will be the armed predators. They will be far more dangerous than the zombies.
Click to expand...


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## Zed

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> This exercise can really help a person to peer into the future and try to see what their endgame is. Without literal lifetime supplies, what are we willing to do to survive? Will we eventually become the same unprepared that we are wanting to defend our homes from now?
> 
> Where do we draw the line? Is there a line? Just what is justifiable?
> 
> I do not have 50 years of food and supplies stored away. It would be a horrible shame to switch from prepper to predator some day.
> 
> I can only hope my plans for self sufficient, self reliant survival/recovery work out.
> 
> This all reminds me of a conversation I had once on wilderness survival....My friend asked "Why not just set fire to a section of the woods? You'll be found in a matter of hours." Maybe he had a point after all.


Well its all about conscience, Just for example, if you kill a baby now would you be able to live with that for rest of your life...
Secondly no supply lasts forever hence a self sufficient system needs to be started. Agriculture, permaculture forest, fish ponds, livestock rearing etc..You will also need to get people from communities to help each other..
After SHTF situations first few years will be difficult, after most of looters and pillagers are shot down, human society will be back to its golden past, mutually helping, understanding each other.. I hear from my grandparents, when there was no TV, no entertainment, people in my village were genuinely close to each other, cared for each other..
In such populations Idiots and selfish are always there. Its just we have the duty to not let them dictate the terms and conditions


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## thepeartree

RNprepper said:


> History is full of examples of people doing anything for survival, including cannibalism and eating babies. We all hope that we would be "above" looting, stealing, and certainly murder for cannibalism, but how do you really know what you would actually do? There is a prayer in the Bible that goes something like, " Oh Lord, do not give me so much wealth that I would become proud in my own self sufficiency, nor poverty that I would steal." Both are part of the human condition, and humans are capable of any behavior when survival is at stake. Individuals WILL endure extreme suffering, torture, and death for strongly held spiritual beliefs, however. For example, there are more Christians jailed, tortured, starved, and killed for their faith now than ever before in history, because they chose to lay down their lives rather than deny their God. Unless one has a firmly held belief in a purpose _higher_ than life, it is my personal opinion that anyone is capable of committing untold atrocities in order to preserve their own existence. I do not exclude myself. "But for the grace of God, there go I."


But would you sacrifice your life _and that of your wife and children_ to your own higher purpose in life? Now, if it comes to looting the haunts of some retail international mega-corp, I have many fewer qualms. Will I let my family go down the tubes to save those companies stock price? I think not... In the meantime, I'll keep trying to build up an acceptable level of preparedness in the face of wage levels that barely let us pay (most) of the monthly bills these days. In this area we've seen food prices rise 35% in the past 4 months  . That doesn't leave any breathing room.


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## oddapple

Scavengers/looters/salvage whatever, I expect they're just some poor desperate things I can't particularly hate for it because they're just bad off. Worse if they happen to be salvaging something I want.
But no, even tho they are shot dead and stuff it's still pitiful because their only real sin (only difference) was the predator that got the drop on them. New Orleans police taught us that, but it always been true.
We've had food go up some here too, but not sure how much and less than 30%.


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Maine-Marine said:


> The above is a nice way of saying -"I will kill your family, your wife, kids, baby, mother and you...if I need it for my family to survive"
> 
> Its all up for grabs is a nice way of saying you are going to do for you and yours and screw anybody you do not know.
> 
> I am guessing that you will be one of the first ones dead...
> 
> I will be one of the ones that are keeping and enforcing a rule of law based on the teachings of Jesus Christ...Remember he did say to take a sword...
> 
> While you may choose competition, I will choose compassion...Chances are I will never run into you...but there are plenty like you and hopefully...I can rid the world of a few of you before I kick off.
> 
> Only those that show compassion are worthy to receive it!


Wow, I'm talking about keeping my family from starving and you are talking about ridding the world of me.....Now I ask, which one of us needs Jesus?


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## RNprepper

thepeartree said:


> But would you sacrifice your life _and that of your wife and children_ to your own higher purpose in life?


I will absolutely defend my family. Like I've said before, mama bear protects the cubs. Will I sacrifice my life rather than deny Christ? By the grace of God, I certainly hope so.


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## Hemi45

RNprepper said:


> But would the folks who took your stuff be looter,s, robbers, or scavengers?


It really won't matter at that point. I can only control what I do and hope/pray I do the right things. Moreover, if things ever get *that bad* I don't plan on being one of the few left to repopulate the planet. That affords me some flexibility in the decisions I make. Obviously, it's easy to say this from the comfort of my home (while everything is still status quo) but I'd rather die with honor, adhering to my moral code. That doesn't make me any better or worse than others, it just allows me to face God with a clear conscience. At the end of the day, whether we live to be 20, 50, 75 or 100, none of us are "getting out alive" so I'll try to live as well as I can in the time I have.


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Maine-Marine said:


> The above is a nice way of saying -"I will kill your family, your wife, kids, baby, mother and you...if I need it for my family to survive"
> 
> Its all up for grabs is a nice way of saying you are going to do for you and yours and screw anybody you do not know.
> 
> I am guessing that you will be one of the first ones dead...
> 
> I will be one of the ones that are keeping and enforcing a rule of law based on the teachings of Jesus Christ...Remember he did say to take a sword...
> 
> While you may choose competition, I will choose compassion...Chances are I will never run into you...but there are plenty like you and hopefully...I can rid the world of a few of you before I kick off.
> 
> Only those that show compassion are worthy to receive it!


Not to mention, how in the Hell can you derive all that BS you just wrote from what I said? I never said anything like that! Those lines were about the bad guys, not me! The only thing I said was it would be wrong to let my family starve to uphold my morals. That means food not murder! You need either sleep or sobriety.


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## Zed

i guess the difference between scavengers/salvager and looters is desperation and aggression. If given chance (before shooting ;P) a salvager/scavenger will ask/beg you for some food for him and his family. I may help such kind as per my ability...A looter and pillager won't ask....he will get hammer in his head before he touches my spinach cans!!


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## pheniox17

A serious question...

How many here are serious preppers and how many are just looking for justification to be one of those that we prepare to defend against???


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> Some of the people in my group looked at the moral and ethical implications of post TEOTWAWKI survival. We came to the conclusion that law and order cease to exist when the bodies that create the law and the bodies that enforce the law cease to exist as well. At that point we are left with the opposing forces of competition and compassion.
> 
> its all up for grabs and survival of the fittest will rule as law. We will be allowed to keep that which we can successfully defend.
> 
> I can see myself living and dying by a code of conduct, but watching my family starve to provide myself with the luxury of moral fiber would be selfish and wrong as well.


For the love of God, can people not read? In the first section I stated what my group had concluded would happen around us! In the second section I stated what we would have to deal with! In the third I stated it would be wrong to let my family starve! Now, in what deranged world does that mean I am a baby killer and you want me dead? Does this forum not have a moderator? This "Maine-Marine" is insane and slanderous. He wants to rid the world of me? Please come here and try. People like you are the reason the government dislikes preppers and the world thinks we are crazy. Please come here and try to rid the world of me, you freak! Marine must mean you have a boat because no U.S. Marine would type the crap you typed, you honor-less coward.


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## RNprepper

pheniox17 said:


> A serious question...
> 
> How many here are serious preppers and how many are just looking for justification to be one of those that we prepare to defend against???


Great question. For me, I have lived my whole life with sustainability in mind. I have a years worth of stored food, but.... that is only to back up all my other lifestyle preps that I already practice. I can cook in 4 ways that use no fuel except what I can supply myself (manure balls and methane). I have a sustainable water supply and several ways to filter/purify if needed. I have a productive garden, small orchard, and small livestock in chickens and crickets. I dehydrate and can food. I have transportation (mules) and sufficient stored hay. I have a solar generator for my small electric needs. I can harvest and prepare a LOT of food from the desert - I do it year round and can easily ramp up. I have taught my family that they will not die from eating rattlesnake, packrats, or crickets, and yes they have eaten them all. I am well prepared for medical emergencies. Having lived in 3rd world conditions, I know what it takes to keep food and water sources uncomtaminated. This is and has always been my lifestyle. The only thing that has changed since I "became" a prepper is that I now have guns and have made the effort to continually upgrade my skill and training. I am also working to improve home security. So, to answer your question, I am prepared to live it out for the long haul and to help others as I am able, and not steal from anyone else.


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

The point of this thread is getting lost in theory. Point blank, the fact is this. An item either belongs to you or it does not. We can call it stealing, looting, scavenging, or salvaging. It does not matter. Does it belong to you? Yes or no? 

The only thing to take away from this is that we have had time and may indeed have yet more time to acquire the things we need for the future. Plan it out now and prepare.

I am sick to death of hearing about stealing it from someone later because we are too lazy or cheap to buy it now.


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## big paul

stealing and looting is what the masses will do just as soon as they realise SHTF, I reckon on hunkering down, staying quiet and living on my supplies whilst the "big die off" goes on outside, when it has all quietened down, probably cos there is no one else left alive, I will come out and see what I can scavenge/salvage from the ruins of society, probably not a lot as I live in a rural, remote area. if I can find some left over tins/cans of food either in one of the village shops or in one of my neighbours ABANDONED and long deserted(either cos their dead or have left) then I will use that to supplement my own stores.


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## Old SF Guy

WOW...and I mean WOW. The man asks about taking items in order to survive and the next thing we know the term "Baby Killer" starts to come out. I have said this before and gotten criticism but I will say it again.

A Wal-mart, Sams club, or Drug store is there and stocked to some degree. You need something. You used to have money in the bank, but now that's gone or inaccessible, The owners(s) aren't there because they are either dead, hiding, or live far away. So in essence, the stuff is going to sit there until someone takes it or the world recovers. My bet is the people who work there will be some of the first to go there and get what they need...but nonetheless, the issue is....you need somethings....Who do you pay for it? 

As for me, I will get what I need, I will not kill anyone who owns it or has a right to get it, nor will I kill someone else for doing the same, I will kill someone who tries to stop me who has no right to do so. I hope that I never have to....but I don't have a stock pile of antibiotics or other perishable meds on hand so...Yes I would buy or take what I needed and I would be willing to leave a note. Again it's all dependent on the SHTF severity as well. For those of you who jump on the "Your no better than the looters of today" train, understand that I am not taking an X-Box...I am taking something that is vital to my families survival and would pay or trade if there were any other way. However if you think I will sit back and say "Taking this is bad, so I'm just going to pray my son's infected wound heals without the meds, or I am just going to let My friends daughters starve because those cans of food belong to the owner of that Food Lion store". You are sadly mistaken. 

I think some of you are putting the best case scenario into play in this SHTF situation, where you are stock piled for 5 years and able to get to it. What happens if that isn't the case? and you and your family, while visiting extended family or on vacation encounter that SHTF scenario? Are you just going to say, "Oh well, lets just live off what we have in the truck." Cause no one here is driving cross country with 1000's of rounds of ammo in there vehicle and all your supplies for long term survival. If you are then, By God...color me amazed.

(And as an add on, if your spending your life staying within arms reach of all your stuff and not even getting out into the world... I submit that your dead already and just don't know it...because your really not even living much of a life.)

I will always try to do what's right,. I will always try to help others and not cause anyone to suffer right up until the point my family might suffer from it. Then I am quite PREPARED to do what ever I must to ensure their survival, and I will take whatever names you want to throw my way with a grain of salt. We, who have served in wars recent and past, have been called Baby Killers by worse than most on this site and it doesn't even sting a little.

SO rip away.


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## pheniox17

OK old mate I will rip into ya.... Neah **** that... 

Its gone from the ops question "shall I raid the truck stop" to justifying theft and looting.... As salvage...

You know the risks better than anyone, that you wont be the only one at the golden store after that extra can of beans (or whatever) and the hazards you will face for those beans... 

I know a lot of "veteran" members (that's people that have been on this forum for a while) have evolved their additude to this type of topic, mostly more lax, but planning assaults/raids now, and have the benefit of been near preps, seems like its asking justification for going down the parth of why bother prepping as I can just hit the prepping neighbor, and the local store and I'm good (reminds ya of a DDP nut???) 

If caught out, there are options, and as I previously said, I'm prepared to cross that bridge, but when I come to it

If anyone rips onto osfg for his line, he is the type of bloke, if he stumbles across your little party and your wife is getting raped by a gang, he will risk his own safety to help, if he can't, will put you out of your misery... As that's his moral line...)

My point is on the ops topic if its missed, the extra can of beans is not worth the safty of me and mine, (as who raids the store, who protects yours, what chances do yours have without you?? All for a can of beans...)


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## CWOLDOJAX

The OP set the stage and said that he was a local guy and knew the owners. Not a marauder or looter or `hood rat. 
He said, "Here I know most of the store owners if its a local business. If I find them dead but they have 3 cans of corn beef hash still on the shelf am I wrong for taking it. I think not."

To an earlier comment about "Baby Killer" I find that unnecessary and crude. I hate the term. To me it was generated by commie-hippies of the `70's
1973 Midnight, out of boot camp, in line at the San Diego airport with all of my possessions in a green duffle bag on my shoulder, I was spit upon and called a "baby Killer" by a lady who clearly a poster-child of what a hippie is. No one back home would do such a thing. She was joined by her "kind" and continued to scream obscenities at me and other young sailors in line to go to their first ships or school. 
She continued while we exercised self-control and made our way to our respective gates for departures... I wonder if she is a politician now... but I digress.

Again - If there is no owner, are you stealing?
Is there justice without a system in place? I say there is... becoming an evil depraved excuse for a human is a choice so is foraging, self-preservation, etc.


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## Old SF Guy

Zed said:


> Well its all about conscience, Just for example, if you kill a baby now would you be able to live with that for rest of your life...
> Secondly no supply lasts forever hence a self sufficient system needs to be started. Agriculture, permaculture forest, fish ponds, livestock rearing etc..You will also need to get people from communities to help each other..
> After SHTF situations first few years will be difficult, after most of looters and pillagers are shot down, human society will be back to its golden past, mutually helping, understanding each other.. I hear from my grandparents, when there was no TV, no entertainment, people in my village were genuinely close to each other, cared for each other..
> In such populations Idiots and selfish are always there. Its just we have the duty to not let them dictate the terms and conditions


Oh and by the Way...Here is where the "Baby Killer" quotes began. And from the Vegan Zed none the less...

Oh what sorrow we bring when we become inclusive of all.....


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## Spooky110

Hemi45 said:


> Dead shopkeeper who has no need for those few remaining cans - no problem. Killing the shopkeeper for those few remaining cans - problem.


...dang


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## Slippy

Slippy said:


> Interesting question Jeep, one that I have thought about many times.
> 
> I have no definitive answer. But generally speaking there will be a breaking point.
> 
> The moment that I put a severed head on the Pike at the end of my driveway to announce that my place is off limits...will probably signify that there is no Rule of Law and the gloves are off.


After reading everyone's posts, I have not changed my mind.


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## Kauboy

jeff70 said:


> ...I am going to do what I need to do for my family to survive.


Nuff' said.


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## TacticalCanuck

This can be a slippery slope for sure. I think if your out looking for things to help with your survival and come across an abandoned car with some stuff you can use in it go for it. The person who originally obtained those goods is no longer needing them. If you create the abandoned car by eliminating its owner you are part of the problem and should expect others to notice your behaviour and act accordingly for their own self preservation amd safety.


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## Denton

Rule of law being null and void, someone said. That day will not come, as the "law" is written on your heart. You know right from wrong and you'll be judged by that. The judgement might not be on this side of life, but it will come.

That, by the way, is what will guide you, no matter what kind of chaos happens. You know for a fact that entering a dwelling in order to take what is not yours is wrong. On the other hand, perishable items in a Walmart store that has been abandoned by management and employees can be argued as being up for grabs. Now, what if someone else got to that last case of canned beans; are you going to kill him for that case of beans?

As for me, I will continue to do what is right and will continue to guard against those who will not.


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## Moonshinedave

I imagine it's easy to have high morals with a full belly, in the safety of one's own home. I figure the line between looting and surviving might get much thinner once the SHTF. Right now with my own full belly in my own home. I'd say the difference between looting and surviving is when you know the rightful owner isn't going to be the one using the whatever you desire. Of course, stealing, or just plain taking from someone who is also just trying to survive just because you can, is a lot easier to see as being wrong. IMO.


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## Ragnarök

I think it fine to take the 3 cans of corned beef..they are dead so no harm done there. u could put some corned beef in their mouth and move the mouth up and down...sort of like sharing a meal...sorry for my morbid sense of humor. 

in all seriousness i would loot anyone if I was starving. just like I'm going to pull my pants down and shit on the sidewalk instead of shitting in my own pants.


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## jimLE

*i aint one for looting a place before or after a shtf situation,if i figure someone is there...but* *if i went into a place of business,or a home after a shtf situation.and found no one there,or dead.yes id take the food...and any thing else of value.and if it can handle carrying it the needed distance.*


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## big paul

Ragnarök said:


> just like I'm going to pull my pants down and shit on the sidewalk instead of shitting in my own pants.


that's was unnecessary!!:shock:


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## Ragnarök

big paul said:


> that's was unnecessary!!:shock:


i might fold a newspaper so my poop doesnt tarnish the earth...lol


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## Notsoyoung

If you decide that looting is okay because the SHTF and all laws are out the window, just remember, that door swings both ways. Personally if I saw some strangers in my neighborhood looting, I would simply and without warning, shoot them. Frankly those who say now that if the SHTF their personal survival dictates that taking from others is warranted are no better then any other piece of scum whose survival plans are to take everything they need from others. If you know someone like this who lives next to you, if the SHTF fan SHOOT THEM right away. If you don't they will surely kill you later. 

If your plan is as soon as the SHTF is to go out and start helping yourself to other people's property then you are a looter and deserve to be put down like a rabid dog. If it has been a while, a month or two, after the SHTF and you come upon a house that is obviously unoccupied, and you have verified it, then help yourself. That is salvaging unclaimed and unused assets. Much would be dependent on what causes the S TO HTF. In a pandemic there may an abundance of unoccupied homes with supplies in them. If it is economic collapse or something like an EMP, you will not be taking assets that are not going to be used by the rightful owners, you are ROBBING the assets of people who would use them for their own survival. Personally, I find that a good object lesson to convince someone to keep going down the road works allot better then some sign that some moron might not even know how to read. Example: If the SHTF if fully intend to mount the heads of all looter/raiders/ thieves on a stick and put them at the end of the lane next to the road. Nothing else that I could do would convince the rest of the scum to keep traveling down the road.


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## Kauboy

Ragnarök said:


> I think it fine to take the 3 cans of corned beef..they are dead so no harm done there. u could put some corned beef in their mouth and move the mouth up and down...sort of like sharing a meal...sorry for my morbid sense of humor.
> 
> in all seriousness i would loot anyone if I was starving. just like I'm going to pull my pants down and shit on the sidewalk instead of shitting in my own pants.


We have compatible senses of humor.


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## Kauboy

Notsoyoung said:


> If you decide that looting is okay because the SHTF and all laws are out the window, just remember, that door swings both ways. Personally if I saw some strangers in my neighborhood looting, I would simply and without warning, shoot them. Frankly those who say now that if the SHTF their personal survival dictates that taking from others is warranted are no better then any other piece of scum whose survival plans are to take everything they need from others. If you know someone like this who lives next to you, if the SHTF fan SHOOT THEM right away. If you don't they will surely kill you later.
> 
> If your plan is as soon as the SHTF is to go out and start helping yourself to other people's property then you are a looter and deserve to be put down like a rabid dog. If it has been a while, a month or two, after the SHTF and you come upon a house that is obviously unoccupied, and you have verified it, then help yourself. That is salvaging unclaimed and unused assets. Much would be dependent on what causes the S TO HTF. In a pandemic there may an abundance of unoccupied homes with supplies in them. If it is economic collapse or something like an EMP, you will not be taking assets that are not going to be used by the rightful owners, you are ROBBING the assets of people who would use them for their own survival. Personally, I find that a good object lesson to convince someone to keep going down the road works allot better then some sign that some moron might not even know how to read. Example: If the SHTF if fully intend to mount the heads of all looter/raiders/ thieves on a stick and put them at the end of the lane next to the road. Nothing else that I could do would convince the rest of the scum to keep traveling down the road.


On the flip side, if your plan for SHTF is to shoot people who do things you don't like, but aren't affecting you... you are a bigger problem than the dad taking a can of beans to feed his 5 year old.


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## Notsoyoung

Moonshinedave said:


> I imagine it's easy to have high morals with a full belly, in the safety of one's own home. I figure the line between looting and surviving might get much thinner once the SHTF. Right now with my own full belly in my own home. I'd say the difference between looting and surviving is when you know the rightful owner isn't going to be the one using the whatever you desire. Of course, stealing, or just plain taking from someone who is also just trying to survive just because you can, is a lot easier to see as being wrong. IMO.


Gee, too bad some people don't take steps to prevent them from having to face this moral dilemma. Maybe they could do something radical like start storing up supplies now so that they won't have to murder others and steal their food and other supplies. You could even come up with a clever title for folks who are trying to get ready for a disaster. I know! You could call them "Preppers"!

I will not condone, excuse, or even try to find excuses for others who will rob, murder, and rape because they didn't bother to look any further then their next trip to the grocery store. I will just do my best to exterminate them if they try to hurt or steal from me or my family.


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## Ragnarök

Notsoyoung said:


> If you decide that looting is okay because the SHTF and all laws are out the window, just remember, that door swings both ways. Personally if I saw some strangers in my neighborhood looting, I would simply and without warning, shoot them. Frankly those who say now that if the SHTF their personal survival dictates that taking from others is warranted are no better then any other piece of scum whose survival plans are to take everything they need from others. If you know someone like this who lives next to you, if the SHTF fan SHOOT THEM right away. If you don't they will surely kill you later.
> 
> If your plan is as soon as the SHTF is to go out and start helping yourself to other people's property then you are a looter and deserve to be put down like a rabid dog. If it has been a while, a month or two, after the SHTF and you come upon a house that is obviously unoccupied, and you have verified it, then help yourself. That is salvaging unclaimed and unused assets. Much would be dependent on what causes the S TO HTF. In a pandemic there may an abundance of unoccupied homes with supplies in them. If it is economic collapse or something like an EMP, you will not be taking assets that are not going to be used by the rightful owners, you are ROBBING the assets of people who would use them for their own survival. Personally, I find that a good object lesson to convince someone to keep going down the road works allot better then some sign that some moron might not even know how to read. Example: If the SHTF if fully intend to mount the heads of all looter/raiders/ thieves on a stick and put them at the end of the lane next to the road. Nothing else that I could do would convince the rest of the scum to keep traveling down the road.


mark my words. when you find yourself starving and having to feed others you love that are also starving. you will do anything to feed them and yourself.


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## Notsoyoung

Kauboy said:


> On the flip side, if your plan for SHTF is to shoot people who do things you don't like, but aren't affecting you... you are a bigger problem than the dad taking a can of beans to feed his 5 year old.


Then I suggest that YOU don't try to take a can of beans from my neighbor in order to feed your kid. Here's an idea! Buy the can now and store it. You seem to be skipping over the part were that poor guy, who forgot to prepare for an emergency, will have to steal from and in all likelihood, KILL my neighbor in order to get that can of beans for his kid. Go ahead and make excuses for criminal behavior. I hear it all the time. "You can't blame those looters breaking into stores, they are poor and they have been kept down by the Whites, and they are just trying to get some social justice". Yeah, lets find excuses for bad behavior. How about the lazy fat ass thug who would rather kill and steal from others then doing to work and planning to save his own worthless behind? How about the scum who just like taking what they want and hurting whoever they want because the LIKE it? Frankly I think you will see a whole lot more of THEM then the "poor man just trying to feed his kids".


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## Notsoyoung

Ragnarök said:


> mark my words. when you find yourself starving and having to feed others you love that are also starving. you will do anything to feed them and yourself.


Mark MY words, I intend to make sure that I don't have to find myself in that position. It sounds to me that what YOU are doing is trying to justify your PLANS to immediately start robbing your neighbors if the SHTF.


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## 2Tim215

It's very easy to spout moral bullshit and sit on the high ground when one has 1 month, 6 months a year or more supplies stashed away, or here on a forum. But when it's ones wife, child or loved ones starving in front of you then lets see how quickly your moral backbone degrades. And those that say that the bible teaches otherwise, remember that God destroyed entire nations, man, woman, child, dogs and donkeys. Everything was put to the sword and everything was burned. When his people showed mercy on there own accord they suffered for it for generations. I am the head of my household and though my wife and I are equal it's my responsibility to keep them safe, alive and healthy and I will do whatever it takes and take whatever I need to do so within the parameters of my own moral judgment and understanding of the situation. When there is no law you are your own law and unfounded mercy and compassion will more than likely get you all killed. Society is not as it was 50/60 yrs ago, where the average man stood for what was right and many held the same belief. Today it's everyone for themselves and in a SHTF scenario you had better be prepared for that.


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## Old SF Guy

Notsoyoung said:


> Gee, too bad some people don't take steps to prevent them from having to face this moral dilemma. Maybe they could do something radical like start storing up supplies now so that they won't have to murder others and steal their food and other supplies. You could even come up with a clever title for folks who are trying to get read for a disaster. I know! You could call them "Preppers"!
> 
> I will not condone, excuse, or even try to find excuses for others who will rob, murder, and rape because they didn't bother to look any further then their next trip to the grocery store. I will just do my best to exterminate them if they try to hurt or steal from me or my family.


So Now it's to the point of if you go into an unoccupied store to get food or meds your not only a baby killer, but a rapist, murderer, and worthy of death. What a judgmental crew we are. I hope to never see any of you get caught away from your substantial preps where you might have to make that decision of will I live by my strict moral codes and let my kids starve... over walking into a Food Lion and grabbing some food....If there is no one that you could purchase it from, borrow, or beg it from instead. You can turn this a million ways if you want...Turn it to the intent to kill folks in their homes and take from them...But that was not the topic.


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## Notsoyoung

Ragnarök said:


> mark my words. when you find yourself starving and having to feed others you love that are also starving. you will do anything to feed them and yourself.


Mark MY words, I intend to make sure that I don't have to find myself in that position. It sounds to me that what YOU are doing is trying to justify your PLANS to immediately start robbing your neighbors if the SHTF.


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## Kauboy

Notsoyoung said:


> Then I suggest that YOU don't try to take a can of beans from my neighbor in order to feed your kid. Here's an idea! Buy the can now and store it. You seem to be skipping over the part were that poor guy, who forgot to prepare for an emergency, will have to steal from and in all likelihood, KILL my neighbor in order to get that can of beans for his kid. Go ahead and make excuses for criminal behavior. I hear it all the time. "You can't blame those looters breaking into stores, they are poor and they have been kept down by the Whites, and they are just trying to get some social justice". Yeah, lets find excuses for bad behavior. How about the lazy fat ass thug who would rather kill and steal from others then doing to work and planning to save his own worthless behind? How about the scum who just like taking what they want and hurting whoever they want because the LIKE it? Frankly I think you will see a whole lot more of THEM then the "poor man just trying to feed his kids".


Let's say I prepare (because I do), and a group of marauders decide to target me. I do my best to defend what I have, but one family can only do so much.
We end up having to retreat.
All of our years of preparation are now gone.
Are you telling me to just accept the fact that I lost all of that, and accept that my 6 year old and 3 year old are now going to starve to death while my wife and I just watch?

I'm not the one ignoring reality, my friend.
No matter what you think you're prepared for, you aren't prepared for everything.

Eventually, your morals and my morals will differ greatly when my child is hungry, and you have food. (no, that isn't a threat, but it is reality)

Law of nature, it *WILL* become front and center eventually.
We believe we are all civil, we believe we are all moral.
We are fooling ourselves.
We are humans. We are survivalists.
We did not reach the top of the food chain with huge teeth, enormous strength, or razor claws.
We did it because we are smart, and are willing to do anything to survive.

Judge me all you like.
When the time comes, I will do *ANYTHING* necessary to survive.
You will too... you just haven't accepted it yet.


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## Ragnarök

Notsoyoung said:


> Mark MY words, I intend to make sure that I don't have to find myself in that position. It sounds to me that what YOU are doing is trying to justify your PLANS to immediately start robbing your neighbors if the SHTF.


Brother I prep. i am here am i not. i clearly said if i was starving i would loot anyone, and i most definitely would do so. would you feel anger that a emaciated skeleton with sunken in eyes was taking a can of beans from you or would feel pity? there is a huge difference between looting a tv and stealing a can of beans.

you sound like you are ready to blow anyone's head off for a little issue.

I do not justify any wrong. it is wrong. but I'm telling you that when you are starving and near death that thought ..is it wrong.. will never cross your mind and if it does it will be for a fleeting moment.


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## Notsoyoung

Old SF Guy said:


> So Now it's to the point of if you go into an unoccupied store to get food or meds your not only a baby killer, but a rapist, murderer, and worthy of death. What a judgmental crew we are. I hope to never see any of you get caught away from your substantial preps where you might have to make that decision of will I live by my strict moral codes and let my kids starve... over walking into a Food Lion and grabbing some food....If there is no one that you could purchase it from, borrow, or beg it from instead. You can turn this a million ways if you want...Turn it to the intent to kill folks in their homes and take from them...But that was not the topic.


I don't remember saying anything about stores. HMMMMM. I am pretty sure I limited myself to homes, and I think that I also made it pretty clear that it is okay if the homes are unoccupied and enough time has passed that it is evident that they aren't returning. Do YOU think that if you go to someone's house to TAKE food the occupants are going to stand idly by and let you walk off with their food? YOU have already decided that it is perfectly acceptable under the circumstances for you to kill them and then take what you want, and yes I do put those who have justified actions like that in the same category as murders, rapists, and thieves.


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## Notsoyoung

Ragnarök said:


> Brother I prep. i am here am i not. i clearly said if i was starving i would loot anyone, and i most definitely would do so. would you feel anger that a emaciated skeleton with sunken in eyes was taking a can of beans from you or would feel pity? there is a huge difference between looting a tv and stealing a can of beans.
> 
> you sound like you are ready to blow anyone's head off for a little issue.
> 
> I do not justify any wrong. it is wrong. but I'm telling you that when you are starving and near death that thought ..is it wrong.. will never cross your mind and if it does it will be for a fleeting moment.


I don't consider looting my neighbor's house a "little thing", and yes I would blow off someone's head for that if the SHTF.

Oh yeah, and I don't buy the "everybody would do it" excuse for bad behavior. You start harming other people then you deserve to be harmed.


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## Old SF Guy

Notsoyoung said:


> I don't remember saying anything about stores. HMMMMM. I am pretty sure I limited myself to homes, and I think that I also made it pretty clear that it is okay if the homes are unoccupied and enough time has passed that it is evident that they aren't returning. Do YOU think that if you go to someone's house to TAKE food the occupants are going to stand idly by and let you walk off with their food? YOU have already decided that it is perfectly acceptable under the circumstances for you to kill them and then take what you want, and yes I do put those who have justified actions like that in the same category as murders, rapists, and thieves.


Absolutely not...If I tried to loot their home they should shoot my ass dead. I was saying that there are extremes and degrees that we can look at this. I think none of us would consider Stealing from someone else who needs it right. That also doesn't mean that some here, me included, wouldn't resort to doing just that if all other options had been tried and our kids were dying. But you have taken the position of condemning those who are open about the truth of what they are willing to resort to if all else failed, and I would venture that you would agree if you understood that it is a last option, and not the defacto starting out position.


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## Zed

people around the world (except India) are damn serious about prepping...I saw a youtube video of a 12 year old prepper from scotland....awesome


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## Ragnarök

Notsoyoung said:


> I don't consider looting my neighbor's house a "little thing", and yes I would blow off someone's head for that if the SHTF.
> 
> Oh yeah, and I don't buy the "everybody would do it" excuse for bad behavior. You start harming other people then you deserve to be harmed.


Dont have to buy into anything Brother ^^. you will do it if the time comes.


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## Kauboy

Notso, do you have kids?
That might be too personal for you to want to answer, I understand.

Something changes in a human being when they create offspring. That new being is the most precious thing in the world to them, and NOTHING will stand in the way of ensuring its safety and survival.
NOTHING.

I don't intend to hurt anyone. I fully expect to resort to trading items or hard work in exchange for feeding my kids.
But make no mistake, I WILL do what everything and anything in my power to ensure they survive.
If you are a father, I hope you understand this, and that you accept that you would do the same.


----------



## Notsoyoung

Kauboy said:


> Let's say I prepare (because I do), and a group of marauders decide to target me. I do my best to defend what I have, but one family can only do so much.
> We end up having to retreat.
> All of our years of preparation are now gone.
> Are you telling me to just accept the fact that I lost all of that, and accept that my 6 year old and 3 year old are now going to starve to death while my wife and I just watch?
> 
> I'm not the one ignoring reality, my friend.
> No matter what you think you're prepared for, you aren't prepared for everything.
> 
> Eventually, your morals and my morals will differ greatly when my child is hungry, and you have food. (no, that isn't a threat, but it is reality)
> 
> Law of nature, it *WILL* become front and center eventually.
> We believe we are all civil, we believe we are all moral.
> We are fooling ourselves.
> We are humans. We are survivalists.
> We did not reach the top of the food chain with huge teeth, enormous strength, or razor claws.
> We did it because we are smart, and are willing to do anything to survive.
> 
> Judge me all you like.
> When the time comes, I will do *ANYTHING* necessary to survive.
> You will too... you just haven't accepted it yet.


So your answer is that YOU become a marauder and rob someone else? Let them do without food that THEY have saved up, and if they don't just pack up and run and decide to stand and fight? Then I guess according to you it would be fine to kill them. So why wait until you have your stuff stolen, wouldn't it make as much sense to just steal from others right away? And wouldn't it make sense to KILL the marauders who took your stuff? Or are you planning on just leaving you supplies without a fight, because after all, maybe they are just trying to feed their family, what right do you have to hurt them? HMMMMNM?


----------



## Notsoyoung

Kauboy said:


> Notso, do you have kids?
> That might be too personal for you to want to answer, I understand.
> 
> Something changes in a human being when they create offspring. That new being is the most precious thing in the world to them, and NOTHING will stand in the way of ensuring its safety and survival.
> NOTHING.
> 
> I don't intend to hurt anyone. I fully expect to resort to trading items or hard work in exchange for feeding my kids.
> But make no mistake, I WILL do what everything and anything in my power to ensure they survive.
> If you are a father, I hope you understand this, and that you accept that you would do the same.


Yes I have kids and that's why I am storing food and fully plan to defend it from others. I catch you looting me or my neighbors then I will do my best to kill you. I will not try to excuse someone's bad behavior, I will just do my best to stop it.


----------



## Kauboy

Notsoyoung said:


> So your answer is that YOU become a marauder and rob someone else? Let them do without food that THEY have saved up, and if they don't just pack up and run and decide to stand and fight? Then I guess according to you it would be fine to kill them. So why wait until you have your stuff stolen, wouldn't it make as much sense to just steal from others right away? And wouldn't it make sense to KILL the marauders who took your stuff? Or are you planning on just leaving you supplies without a fight, because after all, maybe they are just trying to feed their family, what right do you have to hurt them? HMMMMNM?


I'll assume you didn't actually read the post...
I clearly stated I would fight.
I have no reason to steal from others when I already have what I need.
I'm not the one with the irrational reaction. That would be you, stating you would kill people who are doing things in your neighborhood that you don't like, but not actually affecting you.

I hope the view is nice from that pedestal...


----------



## Kauboy

Notsoyoung said:


> Yes I have kids and that's why I am storing food and fully plan to defend it from others. I catch you looting me or my neighbors then I will do my best to kill you. I will not try to excuse someone's bad behavior, I will just do my best to stop it.


I'm not asking you to do otherwise.
But you're still ignoring the reality of life after your preps are gone.
If you've not accounted for your preps being depleted, or taken from you, you haven't fully prepped.


----------



## Notsoyoung

Old SF Guy said:


> Absolutely not...If I tried to loot their home they should shoot my ass dead. I was saying that there are extremes and degrees that we can look at this. I think none of us would consider Stealing from someone else who needs it right. That also doesn't mean that some here, me included, wouldn't resort to doing just that if all other options had been tried and our kids were dying. But you have taken the position of condemning those who are open about the truth of what they are willing to resort to if all else failed, and I would venture that you would agree if you understood that it is a last option, and not the defacto starting out position.


Then you wouldn't have any moral objection if I shot you for it. Yes I understand that it would be the last option for most, and would still not hesitate to shoot them, but it seems to me that many are considering that to be one of their FIRST options. I also firmly believe that to many that will be the ONLY option they even consider. I will not try to judge who is who, just stop them.


----------



## Kauboy

Notsoyoung said:


> Then you wouldn't have any moral objection if I shot you for it.


Not speaking for SF, but I wouldn't hold it against you.
You do what's right by your family, just as I'll do what's right by mine.
Get it?


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## Old SF Guy

Notsoyoung said:


> Then you wouldn't have any moral objection if I shot you for it.


Nope...no moral objection....I'd have a pretty damn big personal objection...but not a moral one....I'm out of this one good luck all.


----------



## Notsoyoung

Kauboy said:


> I'm not asking you to do otherwise.
> But you're still ignoring the reality of life after your preps are gone.
> If you've not accounted for your preps being depleted, or taken from you, you haven't fully prepped.


And obviously YOU haven't considered having renewable food resources in addition to having alternative locations with supplies. Perhaps you need to work on your preps some more so that you won't have to kill and rob your neighbors.


----------



## Kauboy

Notsoyoung said:


> Then you wouldn't have any moral objection if I shot you for it. Yes I understand that it would be the last option for most, and would still not hesitate to shoot them, but it seems to me that many are considering that to be one of their FIRST options. I also firmly believe that to many that will be the ONLY option they even consider. I will not try to judge who is who, just stop them.


If it makes you feel better, all on this site agree that you prepare for events like this by storing away what you can.
You shouldn't worry about any of us, in that regard.

And none of us are asking you to forfeit what you've stored away.
By all means, protect what you have.

We are only asking that you recognize the reality of the situation, when civility is abandoned, and instinctual survival kicks in.
It will happen. It does happen.
A switch is thrown, the mind decides that all options are now on the table, and morality takes a back seat to necessity.

I am one of the most ethical, moral, and kind people you will ever meet.
I despise litterers, people who spit gum into a urinal, anyone who rolls through a stop sign, etc...
I will offer help to anyone who asks, even if I don't really want to.
I don't lie, I don't cheat, I don't steal, I don't smoke, I don't drink. (not that there is anything wrong with smoking or drinking)
I've never gone to jail and can count my speeding tickets on 3 fingers.
I am, by most accounts, a good member of society, a model citizen.

I don't say this to toot my own horn.
I say this to emphasize that, while civil society sees me as upstanding, that does NOT discount the fact that I am a surviving human being.
I will do what is needed to ensure my survival and that of my family.
This may mean that I will abandon all of the above to accomplish it, as a last resort, but I WILL do it.

If you are not willing to say the same, then what are you really protecting?
Are you salvaging an ideal over the life of your child?


----------



## Kauboy

Notsoyoung said:


> And obviously YOU haven't considered having renewable food resources in addition to having alternative locations with supplies. Perhaps you need to work on your preps some more so that you won't have to kill and rob your neighbors.


They've all been considered.

"The best laid schemes of mice and men often go awry."

You fear the day when enough is not enough, and ignore such possibilities.

I've accepted it, and made my peace.


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## 2Tim215

Notsoyoung said:


> And obviously YOU haven't considered having renewable food resources in addition to having alternative locations with supplies. Perhaps you need to work on your preps some more so that you won't have to kill and rob your neighbors.


You really are living in a fantasy world. 98% of the people in your immediate vicinity will want what you have including the neighbors you are willing to kill for when there food runs out. Most of you who prep will be alone or just with close families or friends. The rest of the world will be roving hoards of hungry desperate savages only thinking about the next meal, never mind the organized gangs out to pillage and rape and rule through fear and violence. All of them looking for PREPPERS. You can thank discovery for that. People are not nice by nature. The bible teaches this and history teaches this. Those that have morals were taught them, so wasting precious amo on the lone survivor or family looting/salvaging just to stay alive without finding out the story is just stupid and I hope that you have far more amo than food coz you are sure gonna need it if you plan on shooting every single starving person in your close vicinity. And a spade or lots of gasoline and don't mind the smell of burnt pork.


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## oddapple

Y'all are interesting and come out with some thoughtful things. Seems to me that the ones who speak from their heart, right or wrong, ugly or pretty are still better to read than a bullshitter that is only a percentage statistic.
What I notice (maybe?) is those that are makers of things seem more confident and secure than those who are just stores of things. That constant anxiety of the "out eventuality" messes with all of us but some more.
I believe that the more things your tribe is makers of, the mentally better off as well as physically you will be. Even if it's Bbq sauce, butter, boot wax or black powder. Everything you can add that empowers ya a little.

Didn't mean to hijack - just what was most noticeable to me about the thread.


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## Notsoyoung

2Tim215 said:


> You really are living in a fantasy world. 98% of the people in your immediate vicinity will want what you have including the neighbors you are willing to kill for when there food runs out. Most of you who prep will be alone or just with close families or friends. The rest of the world will be roving hoards of hungry desperate savages only thinking about the next meal, never mind the organized gangs out to pillage and rape and rule through fear and violence. All of them looking for PREPPERS. You can thank discovery for that. People are not nice by nature. The bible teaches this and history teaches this. Those that have morals were taught them, so wasting precious amo on the lone survivor or family looting/salvaging just to stay alive without finding out the story is just stupid and I hope that you have far more amo than food coz you are sure gonna need it if you plan on shooting every single starving person in your close vicinity. And a spade or lots of gasoline and don't mind the smell of burnt pork.


Maybe it's time for YOU to get a touch of reality.... If a "lone family" is looting someone's house most likely they are going to have to kill the occupants to do so. In most cases by far the owners of that house will either remain there until the food runs out or they have taken everything with them when they left. Yes, the world is full of bad people, amongst them will be those who justify murdering and stealing. If someone murders your neighbor for their food, guess who's next when that runs out? As for shooting "every single starving person in my neighborhood", I guess that would hold true for everybody. Personally I think that after shooting a few they will go looking for easier pickings.

Let's me honest. Some people have already decided that if they run out of food they are going to murder their neighbors to get theirs. Let's go to the next logical step, why wait? Why would you wait until you run out of food if you have already decided that you are eventually going to murder them for their's? How long until you decided that since you are going to murder them anyway you would be better off doing it right away before they had a chance to eat any of it? Do it right away and YOU will last longer. So as soon as the SHTF the FIRST thing you do is murder everyone around you for their supplies, and since there are "bad" people out there (as though you aren't one of them), they will try to murder you for yours. And while you are at it, since you are a murderer and a thief anyway, that neighbor has a really nice looking daughter...........

This thread was started because someone posted that if the SHTF the first thing that he was going to do was steal somebody's boat. Not try and work and save to buy his own or work out a deal with someone to go with them in exchange for labor, steal it. And if someone is already on it? I guess the ocean is a good place to bury a body.

Perhaps some of you should look at history and not fiction in books and movies. One of the first things that the pioneers did was to form together for protection from "bad" people, that means you. Time after time since history began, that's what they did. They did not tolerate "I killed them because I was hungry" type of excuses because most of the time they didn't ask. They just didn't care. Frankly your situational ethics says allot about you. It tells me that if I knew you and you lived anywhere near me, if the SHTF and if you came anywhere near me, I would shoot you because you have already said that given the chance you will kill me and mine.

I come from a large family, 7 boys and 5 girls. We have allot of sons and daughters. Our bugout plan is for all of us to live next to each other. Most of my neighbors are my relatives. That is not an accident. Even if they weren't, like I said, If I saw you murdering one of my neighbors to loot their supplies I know who would be next if I did nothing.


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## Maine-Marine

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> Wow, I'm talking about keeping my family from starving and you are talking about ridding the world of me.....Now I ask, which one of us needs Jesus?


You may want to reread your original post..it sounds like you will quickly become a looter


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## Maine-Marine

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> Wow, I'm talking about keeping my family from starving and you are talking about ridding the world of me.....Now I ask, which one of us needs Jesus?


You may want to reread your original post..it sounds like you will quickly become a looter...

you said" its all up for grabs and survival of the fittest will rule as law. We will be allowed to keep that which we can successfully defend.

I can see myself living and dying by a code of conduct, but watching my family starve to provide myself with the luxury of moral fiber would be selfish and wrong as well."

Its all up for grabs??

Is the stuff in my house up for grabs???

and of course you say "watching my family starve to provide myself with the luxury of moral fiber would be selfish and wrong as well." So what morals would you be willing to toss aside in order to make sure your family does not starve..murder, stealing, looting... would you kill me and my kids to take our food so you could feed your kids??

I do not really care about your "luxury of moral fiber"... Morals change every 10 years.. I must answer to a higher authority..Jesus Christ...


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## Jeep

Wow I regret the OP now. THis was never about Robbery Homicide or Rape. It was about sometime after, you need something, you look, you find it. What are the circumstances. Is it 2qts of Motor Oil with dust one them that haven't been touched ? all the doors and windows of the place are smashed out, no one is on the streets! I only asked when it would be acceptable to go and get some things you may be able to utilize.... Have fun all


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## Old SF Guy

Jeep said:


> A couple of weeks a go a member posted that he would hot wire a boat and get. He got his shit jumped in for stealing. Now I am not one to wait and watch to throw a rock through a window and loot a place for the goodies. But at what point do you make a decision to go to a mostly deserted place or even still in chaos and "salvage" what you can for you and yours ? Here I know most of the store owners if its a local business. If I find them dead but they have 3 cans of corn beef hash still on the shelf am I wrong for taking it. I think not. There has to be a time when surviving a disaster where no laws exist anymore and free for all is on, that you need to go get what you can. Now let the beatings begin


Notsoyoung, et al, The above is the original post. I completely agree with jumping down the throat of anyone who makes a Prep plan that is founded on stealing from others or hurting anyone. As I think everyone on here for the most part agrees with. Where things start to go down hill is when some of us admit that if it came down to the survival of our families we would scavenge or loot places that where not occupied (businesses, empty houses, empty cars). You have turned that into we are willing to kill others to get what they have, and at this point that is not the case.

Now fast forward to the time when my kids are near death and I AM now willing to steal from someone, if I cannot get it any other way. Even here I would not try to kill or harm another if there where any way around it...I would beg, plead, anything....but when it got down to watching my child die??? an adult somewhere will have to kill my immoral ass for trying to steal from him and I will be trying to kill him back if he catches me. Again....THIS IS ONLY AT THE EXTREME END OF ALL OPTIONS. You can call me immoral and killer, and scumbag all you want...I am telling you that I know for a fact I would be willing to do this...and I wouldn't hold it against anyone for killing me for doing so. Its simply a potential predicament I have considered and made a determination about. I understand what you are saying and in the end you may be the better man than I and get into heaven. My job is to delay the passing of my wife and children and I'm quite willing to risk going to hell to do it.


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## Maine-Marine

Moonshinedave said:


> I imagine it's easy to have high morals with a full belly, in the safety of one's own home.


That is true...But if we plan now and we KNOW what is right and we have been doing what is right..it is easier to keep doing right...

I would go hunting fishing digging to feed my family before I would steal 1 can of beans...I would never murder to take things to keep my family alive.

NOW..I would join forces with other Americans to raid an (UN/Chinese/ETC) enemy location..

IN short I will not do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE....I will die being a follower of Jesus Christ


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## Old SF Guy

Jeep said:


> Wow I regret the OP now. THis was never about Robbery Homicide or Rape. It was about sometime after, you need something, you look, you find it. What are the circumstances. Is it 2qts of Motor Oil with dust one them that haven't been touched ? all the doors and windows of the place are smashed out, no one is on the streets! I only asked when it would be acceptable to go and get some things you may be able to utilize.... Have fun all


Jeep this is actually like round three or four of a similar topic with very near the same sentiments each time coming up... It's always a tough one to discuss, because I for one understand what Notsoyoung and Maine are saying and agree that 99% of my views fall that way...but when I get down to that 1 percent level and have no options....I accept that I will do whatever is necessary for my family. ANd in doing so I give up all moral authority and am now the scum of the earth....but my kids live a little longer.


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## Jeep

Well than I shall join you. I don't live in Freakin fantasy land and I know there may come a time when I have to find something I need, not want. I already live with a person who will need specific medications, they won't last long. She may not either. I still can't believe how this turned into such a train wreck. But if its not the first time I'll unbunch my panties and stick around a bit longer. All I wanted to know was what was acceptable to take and when....Not how. If I want someones shit I can damn sure get it.


----------



## Kauboy

Old SF Guy said:


> Jeep this is actually like round three or four of a similar topic with very near the same sentiments each time coming up... It's always a tough one to discuss, because I for one understand what Notsoyoung and Maine are saying and agree that 99% of my views fall that way...but when I get down to that 1 percent level and have no options....I accept that I will do whatever is necessary for my family. ANd in doing so I give up all moral authority and am now the scum of the earth....but my kids live a little longer.


Bingo.
I am 99% good, and will be good for as long as I possibly can.
But that 1% will ensure my family's survival when all alternatives have been exhausted.

Many fear that 1%. It exist in all of us.
It doesn't come out much in normal folk.
People who have lived through hell know that 1%.
It is a deep and monstrous thing that we keep suppressed, but it is always there.
I've never become my 1%, but I've felt it grow at certain times. Mainly during potentially violent altercations.
I hope I never become my 1%.

Maine, if you will accept death, and the death of your family, to do what you believe Christ wants, you sir have more fortitude than I.


----------



## Maine-Marine

Kauboy said:


> Maine, if you will accept death, and the death of your family, to do what you believe Christ wants, you sir have more fortitude than I.


It is faith not fortitude. And it is about right versus wrong... I have no bone to pick with folks that will salvage material or even that would kill looters and take their stuff.

it is the nes that say they are 99.9% good but will turn pure evil 1% and DO WHATEVER is required to help their kids survive....

Which means they will kill me and my kids in order to feed themselves and their kids...

so they would kill somebody in order to get enough food for what another day, week, ???.....This is what divides those who understand that Jesus is real and that we are going to stand and give an account and those that offer lip service to the gospel!

Would they turn in a christian for a bag of groceries?
Would they murder a pregnant lady for a loaf of bread?
Would they kill a 5 year old to take 4 cans of beans

when they say anything...I assume they mean anything..which puts them in the evil group

as to everybody having that 1%..first it is not 1%..once you cross the line you are 100% evil... 2nd many people do not have it..we are NEW Creations...


----------



## Maine-Marine

Kauboy said:


> Are you salvaging an ideal over the life of your child?


Jesus and his righteousness are not an ideal... He is King..and is he more important then my wife and kids...Yes.Yes he is


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## Jeep

I'm done here, you are certifiably just...............whatever go kis a cross


----------



## Old SF Guy

Maine-Marine said:


> It is faith not fortitude. And it is about right versus wrong... I have no bone to pick with folks that will salvage material or even that would kill looters and take their stuff.
> 
> it is the nes that say they are 99.9% good but will turn pure evil 1% and DO WHATEVER is required to help their kids survive....
> 
> Which means they will kill me and my kids in order to feed themselves and their kids...
> 
> so they would kill somebody in order to get enough food for what another day, week, ???.....This is what divides those who understand that Jesus is real and that we are going to stand and give an account and those that offer lip service to the gospel!
> 
> Would they turn in a christian for a bag of groceries?
> Would they murder a pregnant lady for a loaf of bread?
> Would they kill a 5 year old to take 4 cans of beans
> 
> when they say anything...I assume they mean anything..which puts them in the evil group
> 
> as to everybody having that 1%..first it is not 1%..once you cross the line you are 100% evil... 2nd many people do not have it..we are NEW Creations...


It would be impossible for me to tell you now where my line will be drawn and to what degree I will not sink. Maybe in my heart I do have evil. I do not think I am evil...but I am certainly capable of immense violence. But I would like to think that my compassion would override my visceral actions and I would recognize a lost cause and wouldn't harm anyone to last just one more day...Lets just agree to disagree and I respect your position and Hope I never have to truly see how far I could sink into that pit. I do not think that once you commit an evil act you are forever evil, just as I do not believe once you sin you can never turn from it... I am just trying to be honest with you.


----------



## Maine-Marine

Old SF Guy said:


> I am just trying to be honest with you.


As was I


----------



## PaulS

We prepare because we don't want to steal from others. If you aren't prepared, then you are just another zombie in my book.

I will kill to protect me and mine but I will not steal from others to keep them. That is why I PREPARE.


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## Kauboy

Maine-Marine said:


> It is faith not fortitude. And it is about right versus wrong... I have no bone to pick with folks that will salvage material or even that would kill looters and take their stuff.
> 
> it is the nes that say they are 99.9% good but will turn pure evil 1% and DO WHATEVER is required to help their kids survive....
> 
> Which means they will kill me and my kids in order to feed themselves and their kids...
> 
> so they would kill somebody in order to get enough food for what another day, week, ???.....This is what divides those who understand that Jesus is real and that we are going to stand and give an account and those that offer lip service to the gospel!
> 
> Would they turn in a christian for a bag of groceries?
> Would they murder a pregnant lady for a loaf of bread?
> Would they kill a 5 year old to take 4 cans of beans
> 
> when they say anything...I assume they mean anything..which puts them in the evil group
> 
> as to everybody having that 1%..first it is not 1%..once you cross the line you are 100% evil... 2nd many people do not have it..we are NEW Creations...


Christ would see that you freely give what you have to those in need.
That solves the whole thing right there.


----------



## Kauboy

PaulS said:


> We prepare because we don't want to steal from others. If you aren't prepared, then you are just another zombie in my book.
> 
> I will kill to protect me and mine but I will not steal from others to keep them. That is why I PREPARE.


Those who profess to be willing to do anything to survive are not stating that doing so will be their first option. The plain and simple truth is, no preps are fail proof. If the worst happened, what are you willing to do?
Best to accept it now, as Maine and I have, though we're on opposite sides.
Ignoring it could prove detrimemtal in the future.


----------



## shotlady

I hope that I have prepped well enough to be able to barter or live well on my preps. I hope that im not in a position to become a thief. if there is an abandoned place and im in a pinch and the owners are dead and I see them dead. I may. its hard to say. I hope that I have prepped well enough not to. but if something is abandoned the truth is if I had to I might/would.

I wouldn't steal from people that are using or living off of their preps.


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## Camel923

We all have a breaking point. The question is where? I would hope to be able to make the decisions necessary and stay with in my moral and religious beliefs. In the worst situation imaginable, where seconds mater in your decisions taken an unoccupied vehicle would be up to each person. Who knows if the owner is dead or not, if he will make it to it or not before its too late. I could not fault anyone electing to escape that sort of situation. Yes I would use deadly force to protect my vehicle, supplies and family in that situation. I would commandeer something unoccupied. I don't think I could morally take by force from someone else but I at this moment am not confronted with the immediacy of such a situation. If I came across something I could use, unattended, it would be hard not to pocket it.


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## pheniox17

I doubt there is any argument with salvage, that's when there is no owner, I doubt many members of this forum have many clues what is worth salvaging or where to look for key items... But that's a skill I bet a lot will have in time...

Looting/theft due to starvation, why not invest time into local weeds as eatables (I noticed a founding farthers type post in here, why not look into history, australia as a penal colony back in the 1800s had not enough food, no commonly known foods, and due to ship delays 000s died of starvation... Use that bit of history...) 

We are all here as arguebly "preppers" why not with the forsight shown and the "moral delima" over food, prepare youselves with knowlage so its not even a question... 

Instead of rushing into the loot or salvage debate .. 

If long term doomsday type of event was happening, and i see a "easy" salvage target i would be more worried its a trap than is there a can of beans


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## Zed

It can be trap by cannibals.....
they keep this bean can in between and a prepper like us comes to salvage it and boom...
They have dinner!!


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## rickkyw1720pf

The first thing you should prep for is so that if the SHTF you won't have to be out there with the looters, not so much whether it is right or wrong but because that will be the most dangerous place to be. While everyone is out looting and try to get any scrap that is left you will have the chance to better prepare your situation. By the end of a week of heavy looting there will not be anything to loot.


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Maine-Marine said:


> You may want to reread your original post..it sounds like you will quickly become a looter...
> 
> you said" its all up for grabs and survival of the fittest will rule as law. We will be allowed to keep that which we can successfully defend.
> 
> I can see myself living and dying by a code of conduct, but watching my family starve to provide myself with the luxury of moral fiber would be selfish and wrong as well."
> 
> Its all up for grabs??
> 
> Is the stuff in my house up for grabs???
> 
> and of course you say "watching my family starve to provide myself with the luxury of moral fiber would be selfish and wrong as well." So what morals would you be willing to toss aside in order to make sure your family does not starve..murder, stealing, looting... would you kill me and my kids to take our food so you could feed your kids??
> 
> I do not really care about your "luxury of moral fiber"... Morals change every 10 years.. I must answer to a higher authority..Jesus Christ...


Sir, when I say it is all up for grabs (for the third time now) I mean by those who are the BAD GUYS!!! As a warning to us that we will have to defend our preps. Why can you not see that? You really misjudged me badly, and that was not fair at all, Sir. Please re read my post without the hate in your eyes....you will see it differently! I would offer myself as slave labor to feed my family before hurting another soul and stealing from them. There is always another way.


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## Renec

whoa!
that escalated quickly!!!!
first..I'm pretty sure we cleared up the difference between looting and salvaging early on.
I'm horrified by the thought that someone might take pot-shots at me for salvaging abandoned car batteries and cables.
on a darker note-you may want to rethink that whole "gonna shoot anyone nosing around my 'hood first and ask questions later" thing.
I don't think it's very christian and you better be damn sure you get them with the first shot.
I doubt anyone here is thinking "OH YEAH BABY!Can't wait until SHTF so I can go a 'rapin and a'lootin!"
We were discussing the idea of Salvaging items abandoned or left behind.
I KNOW that I'd be trading and searching for items that like minded folks need..since I can't seem to stay put for long and just HAVE to see what's over the next damn hill.
not everyone will want to hunker down in their bunker and hide forever.
I'd likely end up as that "trader" guy wandering a set route,carrying messages and bringing in Game i've taken to trade...as well as that copper wire,big screen tv and cameras,batteries and whatever else i may come across.
On a lighter note-I'm far more likely to give someone my food,than take theirs away.


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## oddapple

Seems to me there is only so much fear and speculation you can give some things. You'll know when you come to it. I feel like thinking too much about this and certain other issues may be a little rough on your head before it even gets rough.
Certain subjects however true seem to have a poison content. You kinda have to look and let'er be before the toxic builds up. Medical people have to do that and now you may be in similar conditions. Just sayin. Think about how you feel talking about It, you get what I mean.


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

I have read these posts front to back SEVERAL times now. It is clear to see, even if for the sake of argument, that we stand divided on this issue. I see this much quite clearly from the posts:

1. A person is WRONG to kill a person to TAKE food to feed their family.

2. A person is RIGHT to kill a person to KEEP food for their family.

3. Either way you are killing to feed your family. End of story. 

I therefore must conclude, from these posts, that we have decided on either one or two ways to justify killing. Peoples lives hang in the balance of our grasp of law. "Possession being nine tenths" and "self defense" come to mind. Ooops, we just justified killing again didn't we. Its clear to see some folks have more ammunition stockpiled than food or seeds. Well, to each his own, I suppose. If the time comes, and I pray it never does, a great deal will have to be justified. Will it be right or wrong? Only One Person knows that. That isn't anyone on this forum, I assure you.

But one thing I have certainly learned from reading this thread is this: No matter how you slice it, some are prepared to keep blood on their hands to keep food in their bellies.


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

I am fairly certain I will do my very best to not fall victim to that dichotomy....I say again...there is always another way. If we are to be the survivors, we have to emerge from the ashes worthy of starting over.


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## oddapple

But that's my point. Unless they are experienced pro, what they say here they can't say they know. Even if we know what happens, unless we have that as a personal event, we can't say with certainty about ourselves.
Just because I know what I can and have done only means I can speculate. 
But as long as nobody ends up hung on any hooks, self or otherwise, for a thread discussion like this. Any pro would tell ya so I'd think?


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

But now, to be fair, I will take on the role of the Devil's Advocate: How many men and women have been trained to capture the enemy stronghold? How many have been trained to capture the enemy supply depot? How many have been trained to obtain the objective at all costs and complete the mission? To do whatever is necessary to survive? 

There are those who you may have never met that are the "sin eaters". They do the unthinkable to provide protection for others. Their souls are damned and they know it. But life can go on for others because they never have to know what was done in their defense. These "sin eaters" find no peace, they can't sleep through the night. They constantly question if what they did was right. But they bare that burden for everyone else because they know someone had to. 

This has been a constant throughout history. In a world that has gone to Hell, the leaders of the families might find themselves forced to become the "sin eaters".


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## oddapple

It would be irresponsible and unethical of me to try to influence other men and women about what are referred to as "primal events". The concern not only being that you stand less chance of curing a werewolf than getting a boyscout bit, so to speak, but also equally as bad the risk of setting up a good man to go down.
If a man is to be asked to pick between G-D in text and the woman he got or the young G-D gave them, it won't be by me. 
That's part of what I was at about not scaring or making ourselves sick over this one because as a primal event it's kinda hard to arrive anywhere...as a group!


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Absolutely true....if nothing else it was a healthy exercise in theory and planning. Anything that makes us think and learn is good. And learning to agree and disagree helps as well. Any forum can have easy topics. Diving into the deep, thought provoking stuff is what helps us to grow.


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## 2Tim215

Maine-Marine said:


> It is faith not fortitude. And it is about right versus wrong... I have no bone to pick with folks that will salvage material or even that would kill looters and take their stuff.
> it is the nes that say they are 99.9% good but will turn pure evil 1% and DO WHATEVER is required to help their kids survive....
> Which means they will kill me and my kids in order to feed themselves and their kids...
> so they would kill somebody in order to get enough food for what another day, week, ???.....This is what divides those who understand that Jesus is real and that we are going to stand and give an account and those that offer lip service to the gospel!
> Would they turn in a christian for a bag of groceries?
> Would they murder a pregnant lady for a loaf of bread?
> Would they kill a 5 year old to take 4 cans of beans
> when they say anything...I assume they mean anything..which puts them in the evil group
> as to everybody having that 1%..first it is not 1%..once you cross the line you are 100% evil... 2nd many people do not have it..we are NEW Creations...


I find it ironic that some will resort to the holier than thou attitude concerning this. 
So to put some things straight:
1. We are all evil. It's only by grace that we are saved and it is our soul that has been circumcised from the sins of the flesh through Christ. We are still in the flesh and are capable of all evil until we are dead and buried or taken up. That means we are still 100% evil, even if saved. Though I commend the attitude of Christ first and family welfare be dammed not many could do this.
2. Don't spout religious hypocrisy concerning "it's a matter of faith" and then ignore Luke 12: 16 onwards
3. And then continue on a forum devoted to storing food and where most are against the current administration when your "faith" tells you to respect and trust it as it is God who placed them in power (Romans 13)

If you are so strong in your faith then why are you preparing for the worst when the bible is very clear about placing your trust in God alone and not your own strength and understanding? When everything that is happening and will happen is for His glory and is part of His plan to reveal His glory to mankind?

Don't sit in righteous judgment on what others would do in a desperate situation when the faith you base this righteous judgment on itself seems to be on shaky foundations. You your self will not and can not know what you would do in the same situation and pray that He never puts you to that test


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

LOL...it is all a point of perspective. Some people keep the king James Version on one night stand and the U.S. Constitution on the other. That way no matter what side of the bed they wake up on, they can yawn and start their day of being one self-righteous s.o.b. 

For the rest of us we just do our best to be a servant to both at the same time, and brother, it ain't always easy!


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## SARGE7402

Jeep said:


> I know full well thr risks involved HH, but at what point is it looting. A month, a year, when do you decide that you need something that may be sitting there. I think the point was missed, I prep so I do not have to but I can't feasibly prep for the next 30-40 years of my life RIGHT NOW


How would you like it if someone came upon your home when you were out scavaging and took everything of value from your property?

Guess that answers most of your question.

And In all of our 200 plus years we haven't seen a total break down in the rule of law.

What makes any of you think that will happen today.


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## big paul

I say this, the human race as it stands today has come further than any civilisation/society has before it in its entire history, but the down side is that WHEN shtf we all have much further to fall. people these days seem to depend entirely on the technology-should that technology fail..for any reason...say power down...where would they be without it. I believe we will quickly revert to the tribal level within a short time.


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## 2Tim215

My wife and I were actually discussing this yesterday. How peoples expectations these days are far more than they were 50 yrs ago. How everything is instantaneous and what would people do if communication failed? Not only that but few are adept at looking after themselves never mind thinking for themselves. Mass suicides would be the order of the day if the SHTF. People would just not be equipped to cope emotionally, psychologically and physically.


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## big paul

2Tim215 said:


> My wife and I were actually discussing this yesterday. How peoples expectations these days are far more than they were 50 yrs ago. How everything is instantaneous and what would people do if communication failed? Not only that but few are adept at looking after themselves never mind thinking for themselves. Mass suicides would be the order of the day if the SHTF. People would just not be equipped to cope emotionally, psychologically and physically.


yes, I have been saying this for a few years now. once the power went off and the deliveries stopped arriving at the shops people would start to panic. phone towers would be down and the internet would be dead. only those who had thought about this problem in advance would have any idea of what to do. I know many people in this country who say" I don't want to survive if I cant have"...x,y or z. so I expect the die off to start immediately.


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## Notsoyoung

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> But now, to be fair, I will take on the role of the Devil's Advocate: How many men and women have been trained to capture the enemy stronghold? How many have been trained to capture the enemy supply depot? How many have been trained to obtain the objective at all costs and complete the mission? To do whatever is necessary to survive?
> 
> There are those who you may have never met that are the "sin eaters". They do the unthinkable to provide protection for others. Their souls are damned and they know it. But life can go on for others because they never have to know what was done in their defense. These "sin eaters" find no peace, they can't sleep through the night. They constantly question if what they did was right. But they bare that burden for everyone else because they know someone had to.
> 
> This has been a constant throughout history. In a world that has gone to Hell, the leaders of the families might find themselves forced to become the "sin eaters".


What a load of crap. There are a large number of retired and former military members in this forum and I doubt that any of them consider themselves "sin eaters" or "know" that their souls are "damned". I know that I don't.


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## Notsoyoung

big paul said:


> yes, I have been saying this for a few years now. once the power went off and the deliveries stopped arriving at the shops people would start to panic. phone towers would be down and the internet would be dead. only those who had thought about this problem in advance would have any idea of what to do. I know many people in this country who say" I don't want to survive if I cant have"...x,y or z. so I expect the die off to start immediately.


IMO I think you will surprised just how many people who proclaim that they don't want to survive x, y, or z will suddenly change their minds should such an event arise.


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## big paul

Notsoyoung said:


> IMO I think you will surprised just how many people who proclaim that they don't want to survive x, y, or z will suddenly change their minds should such an event arise.


yes but will they be able to-survive I mean? their usually the ones who haven't prepared and have got no food in the house, a know a lot of people who eat out all the time and have nothing in the house apart from the odd bit of fruit or crisps(fries to you).


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## Salt-N-Pepper

I live in a small town, my biggest concern about staying here with any preps is that the "authorities" will decide once they personally run out of supplies that they are, indeed, collectivists and will move to seize all community assets. This, of course, would be stupid because we are in a community that produces grain and cattle, and there's enough corn alone in the elevators to feed this county for 5 years, and if there's no way to sell the excess beef produced... well... there ya have it. 50,000 head of cattle for 3500 people? Starvation will not be a problem if people keep their heads on right, and we don't have to steal the cattle from the farmers, either, we can trade labor for food.


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## big paul

I live in a town too-or rather on the edge of it, and all the population are townies and have no more than 3 days food in their houses(9 meals from anarchy).


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## Salt-N-Pepper

big paul said:


> I live in a town too-or rather on the edge of it, and all the population are townies and have no more than 3 days food in their houses(9 meals from anarchy).


What you have to consider is what is outside of town... is it an agricultural areas? If so, what do they grow? If it's corn, do you have any way to grind that corn into meal? There are LOTS of resources out there, if people just stop and think about them. Grain elevators are great big buckets of corn and beans just waiting to be turned into survival rations. Start looking and thinking like that.

I am a member of my county's local emergency board... if the SHTF I am one of the first people in the call list, and I am at the meeting when people start discussing what to do. Not only is this a good community service, but I can have direct input on what decisions are made.


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## Maine-Marine

thepeartree said:


> But would you sacrifice your life _and that of your wife and children_ to your own higher purpose in life? Now, if it comes to looting the haunts of some retail international mega-corp, I have many fewer qualms. Will I let my family go down the tubes to save those companies stock price? I think not... In the meantime, I'll keep trying to build up an acceptable level of preparedness in the face of wage levels that barely let us pay (most) of the monthly bills these days. In this area we've seen food prices rise 35% in the past 4 months  . That doesn't leave any breathing room.


BY the time my preps are finished/gone..there will be nothing in any big box store worth taking


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## Maine-Marine

Camel923 said:


> We all have a breaking point.


The above statement is without merit and untrue... many many many people throughout history have DIED instead of giving up or surrendering their values...


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## big paul

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> What you have to consider is what is outside of town... is it an agricultural areas?


 this is sheep country, although there is a grain depot about 6 miles away.


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## Maine-Marine

rickkyw1720pf said:


> .....prep so that if the SHTF you won't have to be out there with the looters, not so much whether it is right or wrong but because that will be the most dangerous place to be.


YES YES YES..and I can bet you that in teh early days folks will be taken stuff that will not help them survive..TV's, Etc.


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## oddapple

Maine-Marine said:


> The above statement is without merit and untrue... many many many people throughout history have DIED instead of giving up or surrendering their values...


Then it's fair to say that apparently many people's body is not as durable as their will and succumbed before they reached their "breaking point".
It takes powerful belief and will. Nobody would do that for this bath house monkey Kenyan because he, what trucks with him and his schemes are all unworthy. The lowest person we have feels more essential dignity than him. Now....let people think that their sacrifice means the riddance of him, islam and his ilk in general? We'll be holding the world record for most kamikaze's in history.


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## Maine-Marine

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> But now, to be fair, I will take on the role of the Devil's Advocate: How many men and women have been trained to capture the enemy stronghold? How many have been trained to capture the enemy supply depot? How many have been trained to obtain the objective at all costs and complete the mission? To do whatever is necessary to survive?
> 
> There are those who you may have never met that are the "sin eaters". They do the unthinkable to provide protection for others. Their souls are damned and they know it. But life can go on for others because they never have to know what was done in their defense. These "sin eaters" find no peace, they can't sleep through the night. They constantly question if what they did was right. But they bare that burden for everyone else because they know someone had to.
> 
> This has been a constant throughout history. In a world that has gone to Hell, the leaders of the families might find themselves forced to become the "sin eaters".


You have read way to much Harry Potter


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## Zed

People will starve for values...
Just an example, you are starving for 2 weeks and you find a single can of beans and nothing else...you got 3-4 kids and you and your wife...will you eat yourself and survive and let your kids and wife die or let your kids eat and let them survive and you yourself starve?
If we humans were of predatory nature...we won't ever would have evolved into today's civilization....we instead of killing each other for food...we started co-operating, living by rules and values and thus primitive communities came into existence...


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## Maine-Marine

Zed said:


> People will starve for values...
> Just an example, you are starving for 2 weeks and you find a single can of beans and nothing else...you got 3-4 kids and you and your wife...will you eat yourself and survive and let your kids and wife die or let your kids eat and let them survive and you yourself starve?
> .


This is a thread topic all by itself... here is the issue... if you do not eat and feed your kids, you may become to weak to help.

during the German siege of Leningrad...those you worked got extra rations..and were forced to eat those rations before going home...they also added sawdust to bread


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## oddapple

.we started co-operating, living by rules and values and thus primitive communities came into existence"

Correct. That's like stage 3...and then came nimrod the soul hunter and big, nasty Babylons were born and we're at the end of one of those pustules now. 
Nothing bigger than small tribes until people come through this and get a little better if you ask me.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

big paul said:


> this is sheep country, although there is a grain depot about 6 miles away.


Yep yep. Got a grinder?


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## Kauboy

I posed this question to my wife last night.
Basically, "What line would you not cross to keep your children fed and safe."

This 110lb, 5ft nuthin, mother of 2, said "I'm not in that situation now, so I don't really know, but a mother will do anything to save her kids."
I've heard that cliche before, but then she just about knocked me over with one of the most profound statements she's ever made.
She looked me straight in the eyes and said, "I will die before I let my kids die."
And that was that. No further discussion needed.
She will do what is necessary.

To reiterate my first post to this thread.
"Nuff said."


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## Maine-Marine

Kauboy said:


> She looked me straight in the eyes and said, "I will die before I let my kids die."


I would like to know what she means.

If she is dead she can no longer help her kids..So it seems that dying would be the last thing..if protecting her kids was her top priority

would she kill me and my little boy in order take our food to feed her kids


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## big paul

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Yep yep. Got a grinder?


yes. had one for ages.


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## 2Tim215

Maine-Marine said:


> I would like to know what she means.
> 
> If she is dead she can no longer help her kids..So it seems that dying would be the last thing..if protecting her kids was her top priority
> 
> would she kill me and my little boy in order take our food to feed her kids


If I had my wife and daughter with me and asked you for food and you stared in there starving faces and refused I would bring 7 hells down on you and yours.


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## Maine-Marine

2Tim215 said:


> If I had my wife and daughter with me and asked you for food and you stared in there starving faces and refused I would bring 7 hells down on you and yours.


I have always said that I would provide a meal to anybody that showed up at my house...

I do want to point out to you that MOST people who are going to turn you and your family away..will be ready for you to "bring 7 hells Down" - Am I the only one that realizes that if you are walking around with your wife and kids begging food..chances are the first time you try to BRING HELL DOWN you and your family will end up dead, stripped of all your valuables, and chances are tossed into a open pit or a river....BUT you will no longer be hungry


----------



## 2Tim215

Maine-Marine said:


> I have always said that I would provide a meal to anybody that showed up at my house...
> 
> I do want to point out to you that MOST people who are going to turn you and your family away..will be ready for you to "bring 7 hells Down" - Am I the only one that realizes that if you are walking around with your wife and kids begging food..chances are the first time you try to BRING HELL DOWN you and your family will end up dead, stripped of all your valuables, and chances are tossed into a open pit or a river....BUT you will no longer be hungry


Not quite. The whole line of thought behind this thread is not only the moral issues behind looting/salvaging but how far would a desperate person go to protect there loved ones or themselves. Emphasis on desperate here. Just because a person has no food does not mean they are unarmed, stupid, untrained or unequipped. So for you to assume that everyone realizes that a desperate person is a pushover is just plain stupid and risky to say the least. That assumption alone would get you killed. I would watch you. I would plan for numerous outcomes. I would not just walk up with my loved ones "begging". I would asses you and see if you were worth the risk or if you would just shoot on sight. I would approach unarmed with my family visible but armed, trained and ready to flee or fight, having mapped your routine and have gotten you in a area where me and mine stood a chance. I would humble myself and offer work for food. If you refused then it would be better for you to shoot me right then and there coz me and mine would not rest until we repaid your kindness in kind. Eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth.

And this is not a direct attack against you personally. But you might want to rethink your viewpoint. I admire your tenacious belief in your own faith and ability to stand fast. But wonder if He has ever put you to the test in your land of milk and honey. And if He hasn't, I pray for your sake that He never does.


----------



## Denton

2Tim215 said:


> If I had my wife and daughter with me and asked you for food and you stared in there starving faces and refused I would bring 7 hells down on you and yours.


On who's door are you knocking? Do they have food to spare, or are they down to just a couple day's worth of food for their own children?

Don't get the idea that a man who is defending his family and castle doesn't have a little hell of his own to share with those trying to take food out of the mouths of his children.


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## 2Tim215

Denton said:


> On who's door are you knocking? Do they have food to spare, or are they down to just a couple day's worth of food for their own children?
> Don't get the idea that a man who is defending his family and castle doesn't have a little hell of his own to share with those trying to take food out of the mouths of his children.


Read underlined portion



2Tim215 said:


> Not quite. The whole line of thought behind this thread is not only the moral issues behind looting/salvaging but how far would a desperate person go to protect there loved ones or themselves. Emphasis on desperate here. Just because a person has no food does not mean they are unarmed, stupid, untrained or unequipped. So for you to assume that everyone realizes that a desperate person is a pushover is just plain stupid and risky to say the least. That assumption alone would get you killed. I would watch you. I would plan for numerous outcomes. I would not just walk up with my loved ones "begging". I would asses you and see if you were worth the risk or if you would just shoot on sight. I would approach unarmed with my family visible but armed, trained and ready to flee or fight, having mapped your routine and have gotten you in a area where me and mine stood a chance. *I would humble myself and offer work for food*. If you refused then it would be better for you to shoot me right then and there coz me and mine would not rest until we repaid your kindness in kind. Eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth.
> 
> And this is not a direct attack against you personally. But you might want to rethink your viewpoint. I admire your tenacious belief in your own faith and ability to stand fast. But wonder if He has ever put you to the test in your land of milk and honey. And if He hasn't, I pray for your sake that He never does.


----------



## Denton

Now, let us look at the next sentence...



> I would humble myself and offer work for food. *If you refused then it would be better for you to shoot me right then and there coz me and mine would not rest until we repaid your kindness in kind. Eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth.*


So, a robbing and murdering is OK as long as you first ask politely and humbly that I hand over my family's food?

I think not.

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth? That is a misapplication.

Prepare for your family's survival, rather than planning on killing others. No matter how you try and rationalize it, you are talking about killing others for their belonging. You'll probably learn the true meaning of "an eye for an eye" when caught doing this.


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## big paul

taking other peoples food, food that they have bought and paid for, is NOT repeat NOT being a prepper, its being a thief and a looter. prepare for your own families survival do not rely on someone else to feed you, whether its at the point of a gun or not, that is being no better than a sheeple.


----------



## Maine-Marine

2Tim215 said:


> Not quite. The whole line of thought behind this thread is not only the moral issues behind looting/salvaging but how far would a desperate person go to protect there loved ones or themselves. Emphasis on desperate here. Just because a person has no food does not mean they are unarmed, stupid, untrained or unequipped. So for you to assume that everyone realizes that a desperate person is a pushover is just plain stupid and risky to say the least. That assumption alone would get you killed. I would watch you. I would plan for numerous outcomes. I would not just walk up with my loved ones "begging". I would asses you and see if you were worth the risk or if you would just shoot on sight. I would approach unarmed with my family visible but armed, trained and ready to flee or fight, having mapped your routine and have gotten you in a area where me and mine stood a chance. I would humble myself and offer work for food. If you refused then it would be better for you to shoot me right then and there coz me and mine would not rest until we repaid your kindness in kind. Eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth.
> 
> And this is not a direct attack against you personally. But you might want to rethink your viewpoint. I admire your tenacious belief in your own faith and ability to stand fast. But wonder if He has ever put you to the test in your land of milk and honey. And if He hasn't, I pray for your sake that He never does.


I would never assume anybody is defenseless..It is interesting that you PUT that assumption on me and then knock it down...Sort of like making something up that a person "SAID" and then belittling them for it.. Your above post is like a fiction story without good characters and a bad plot.

I however think that you are assuming you have the time to wait and watch and plan while your family is starving... You will not be watching my routine, since I will mostly be in the house. If it is gardening time...I will be with other men folk..men that have prepared and are not out with a starving family looking to loot or prostitute themselves or their female family members...

If anybody shows up to my house and causes problems or acts strange..I will be on the alert for weeks after as will my friends. Bear in mind that PA is brutal cold in Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar and very wet and miserable in April and Sept

From reading your thoughts..I am guess that you and yours will all be deadly within a very short time...

And as mentioned before I would give a meal to anybody that come to my house... even you...

I have 21 years in the military - 12 as a Marine and 9 in the National Guard...I grew up in the Maine woods - hunting, trapping, fishing........I rest assured that come SHTF I will be able to take care of my family from dirtbags.

There are other folks on this forum that will also be able to take care of themselves and their families without resorting to killing people or trying to sound like they are Ricky Recon with the gun that never stops firing ...

Gheesh..some people


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## 2Tim215

Not once have I said it's "OK". It just is. The point I am trying to make as many others have is that it's not all cut and dried, black or white in a SHTF scenario. On another thread we spoke about violence and are you prepared to be violent in order to survive? Or to keep your loved ones alive? Like some one else stated, you might not be in your prepped fortress when it does happen. What then? Is your BOB going to get you home when you have to walk 500 km, even 100km? Are you never ever going to leave your prepped fortress? That's a very sad way to live. It's very easy to be judgmental when it's all cream cheese and to say things like " me and mine will die before we betray our faith" but forget the parable about not casting the first stone or "on this rock I will build my church" the very same rock that denied Christ three times. Personally, I pray that I would never have to kill a person for there food. But can I? At least I'm honest enough to say that yes, more than likely if it means my loved ones live. But I would choose those that would die carefully and with clear conscious. But then what if there is no choice and it just happens? Am I dammed as was stated? Not if you know your bible. But that's an entirely other debate.
Is it wrong to to steal? Yes. Is it wrong to kill for another persons belongings? Most definitely. Good people are capable of doing bad things just as bad people are capable of doing good. And in the end there are always consequences.


----------



## 2Tim215

Maine-Marine said:


> I would never assume anybody is defenseless..It is interesting that you PUT that assumption on me and then knock it down...Sort of like making something up that a person "SAID" and then belittling them for it.. Your above post is like a fiction story without good characters and a bad plot.
> 
> I however think that you are assuming you have the time to wait and watch and plan while your family is starving... You will not be watching my routine, since I will mostly be in the house. If it is gardening time...I will be with other men folk..men that have prepared and are not out with a starving family looking to loot or prostitute themselves or their female family members...
> 
> If anybody shows up to my house and causes problems or acts strange..I will be on the alert for weeks after as will my friends. Bear in mind that PA is brutal cold in Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar and very wet and miserable in April and Sept
> 
> From reading your thoughts..I am guess that you and yours will all be deadly within a very short time...
> 
> And as mentioned before I would give a meal to anybody that come to my house... even you...
> 
> I have 21 years in the military - 12 as a Marine and 9 in the National Guard...I grew up in the Maine woods - hunting, trapping, fishing........I rest assured that come SHTF I will be able to take care of my family from dirtbags.
> 
> There are other folks on this forum that will also be able to take care of themselves and their families without resorting to killing people or trying to sound like they are Ricky Recon with the gun that never stops firing ...
> 
> Gheesh..some people


::rambo:::grin: Don't take this so personally. It's a good debate.


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## Notsoyoung

So if you go to someone's door and ask for food and they refuse, you are going to kill them? Gee, you don't know how much food he has, how many he is feeding, how many others with him are armed and trained, you don't even know what he is capable of. You're going to pull some recon on him for a couple of days? Think may HE might be pulling regular recon around his area to see if anyone is planning on attacking him? And why are you spending a couple of days spying on him instead of trying to find some food on your own? 

It sounds to me that there is a very simple way to protect yourself from people who would come to your door asking for food and would kill you if you refused...... shoot them on sight. If they have armed family members, shoot them too. Maybe a better way to go is ask, is say that you are willing to work for it, and if they say no, move on. More importantly, DON'T GET IN THAT SITUATION. Store enough food to feed your family if the SHTF. Have what you would need to produce more food. Have alternative food storage locations. Learn how to live off the land. Learn what wild plants are edible. Eat earthworms and grasshoppers if need be. 

IMO someone who has already decided that if he runs out of food he is going to kill others for their food have subconsciously decided that as soon as the SHTF they are going to immediately start killing others for their assets. After all, what sense does it really make to wait until your assets are totally exhausted while the people you intend to murder are depleting their supplies thus leaving less when you return to kill and rob them. Since you intend to eventually murder them anyway, why wait.


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## 2Tim215

Good points. But you're still not seeing the picture I'm painting. It goes without saying that most here prep. Myself included. What I'm saying is we are all capable of evil under the right circumstances and motivation. Yourself included. "better to shoot on sight" you say. Killing someone for there food and just killing someone "in case" are the same in my book. I think I rest my case now.


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## Maine-Marine

oddapple said:


> Then it's fair to say that apparently many people's body is not as durable as their will and succumbed before they reached their "breaking point".
> It takes powerful belief and will. Nobody would do that for this bath house monkey Kenyan because he, what trucks with him and his schemes are all unworthy. The lowest person we have feels more essential dignity than him. Now....let people think that their sacrifice means the riddance of him, islam and his ilk in general? We'll be holding the world record for most kamikaze's in history.


I was lost reading this..


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## Maine-Marine

Notsoyoung said:


> So if you go to someone's door and ask for food and they refuse, you are going to kill them? Gee, you don't know how much food he has, how many he is feeding, how many others with him are armed and trained, you don't even know what he is capable of. You're going to pull some recon on him for a couple of days? Think may HE might be pulling regular recon around his area to see if anyone is planning on attacking him? And why are you spending a couple of days spying on him instead of trying to find some food on your own?
> 
> It sounds to me that there is a very simple way to protect yourself from people who would come to your door asking for food and would kill you if you refused...... shoot them on sight. If they have armed family members, shoot them too. Maybe a better way to go is ask, is say that you are willing to work for it, and if they say no, move on. More importantly, DON'T GET IN THAT SITUATION. Store enough food to feed your family if the SHTF. Have what you would need to produce more food. Have alternative food storage locations. Learn how to live off the land. Learn what wild plants are edible. Eat earthworms and grasshoppers if need be.
> 
> IMO someone who has already decided that if he runs out of food he is going to kill others for their food have subconsciously decided that as soon as the SHTF they are going to immediately start killing others for their assets. After all, what sense does it really make to wait until your assets are totally exhausted while the people you intend to murder are depleting their supplies thus leaving less when you return to kill and rob them. Since you intend to eventually murder them anyway, why wait.


I would like to give this 3 thumbs up and a +++++

Best question ever.. "what sense does it really make to wait until your assets are totally exhausted while the people you intend to murder are depleting their supplies thus leaving less when you return to kill and rob them. Since you intend to eventually murder them anyway, why wait?"


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## Maine-Marine

2Tim215 said:


> What I'm saying is we are all capable of evil under the right circumstances and motivation.


Untrue and without basic in reality


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## Denton

2Tim215 said:


> Good points. But you're still not seeing the picture I'm painting. It goes without saying that most here prep. Myself included. What I'm saying is we are all capable of evil under the right circumstances and motivation. Yourself included. "better to shoot on sight" you say. Killing someone for there food and just killing someone "in case" are the same in my book. I think I rest my case now.


Let me make a couple other points. "You" (I have been aware that I am not talking to "you" but that you are painting a scenario) would offer to do work for the food, but would take it if turned down.

Here's the thing. Most are not farmers, and this is not the Lobo song, _Me and You and a Dog Named Boo_. The days of family farms being found all over the country have gone by the wayside; by government design if you ask me. What, exactly, is it that one would need someone do in trade for food? Most have finite resources, space and ability. That being the case, most have finite supplies. What, exactly, would you expect to do for me when times go bad? I'll not be so worried about the grass needing mowed or leaves raked.

Your scenario also assumes you will be watching my group's activities without being watched, yourself. That won't be happening. My job is to insure it won't go down like that. I won't be indiscriminately killing people; I'll already understand their intentions.


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## Maine-Marine

Denton said:


> Let me make a couple other points. "You" (I have been aware that I am not talking to "you" but that you are painting a scenario) would offer to do work for the food, but would take it if turned down.
> 
> Here's the thing. Most are not farmers, and this is not the Lobo song, _Me and You and a Dog Named Boo_. The days of family farms being found all over the country have gone by the wayside; by government design if you ask me. What, exactly, is it that one would need someone do in trade for food? Most have finite resources, space and ability. That being the case, most have finite supplies. What, exactly, would you expect to do for me when times go bad? I'll not be so worried about the grass needing mowed or leaves raked.
> 
> Your scenario also assumes you will be watching my group's activities without being watched, yourself. That won't be happening. My job is to insure it won't go down like that. I won't be indiscriminately killing people; I'll already understand their intentions.


::clapping::::clapping::::clapping::::clapping::::clapping::


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## Old SF Guy

Maine-Marine said:


> I would like to know what she means.
> 
> If she is dead she can no longer help her kids..So it seems that dying would be the last thing..if protecting her kids was her top priority
> 
> would she kill me and my little boy in order take our food to feed her kids


You know Maine? I have respected your position before but now your just being obtuse and argumentative for the sake of the debate. She would die to protect her kids....Not die because she wanted to as if she didn't understand that her kids would be at a greater risk after she was dead. noone just says...well to prove I love you I'm going to die today. She is saying she will jump in front of someone attacking her kids and take the bullet or knife herself. SHe is saying she will fight to her death to defend her kids. SHe is saying she will go out and risk dying to get her babies what the need to survive. People can disagree on things and still be civil.

(I edited out some mean thing I said that I regret saying...and apologized for it)


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## 2Tim215

Maybe you could feed me for shooting everyone else on sight. I don't have any morals anyway. Perfect job:-D


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## Denton

2Tim215 said:


> Maybe you could feed me for shooting everyone else on sight. I don't have any morals anyway. Perfect job:-D


That'd be a good idea, but I do not want everyone shot on sight! :lol:
Were that the case, I'd do it myself.


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## Maine-Marine

Old SF Guy said:


> You know Maine? I have respected your position before but now your just being obtuse and argumentative for the sake of the debate. She would die to protect her kids....Not die because she wanted to as if she didn't understand that her kids would be at a greater risk after she was dead. noone just says...well to prove I love you I'm going to die today. She is saying she will jump in front of someone attacking her kids and take the bullet or knife herself. SHe is saying she will fight to her death to defend her kids. SHe is saying she will go out and risk dying to get her babies what the need to survive. If you can't understand what this woman is saying, you either do not have children, did not really like the children you had, or don't deserve to ever have children sir. Stop being and ass for the sake of a thread that just needs to stop. People can disagree on things and still be civil.
> 
> You mention a son...Would you die trying to protect him? or would you save yourself to be available to continue helping your wife? since you know he will go to heaven.


It is a good question. I would die to protect him, yes... However that is different then saying I will die before I let my kids die...

SO I guess debate and back and forth are ok as long as you do not get bored with it or do not disagree.

OBTUSE - annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand...if I am annoying you...tough! Freedom of speech involves being annoyed and offended. Slow to understand?? I was hoping to gain some clarity about his wife's comment... I am glad you could take the time to explain what another mans wife was thinking.. I just want people to be honest!!! If they are going to go out and murder other people...do not hide behind pretty words... just say it...

I think I have been civil and have not stopped to your level...

I have 6 kids... 5 natural 1 adopted... 1 in the Corps, 1 in Christian College, 1 on the west coast married with kids and managing a large store, and 3 at home 5, 3, 1 1/2...

Up until this post I was a fan...I always liked Old (SF) Science Fiction Guy


----------



## Old SF Guy

Maine-Marine said:


> It is a good question. I would die to protect him, yes... However that is different then saying I will die before I let my kids die...
> 
> SO I guess debate and back and forth are ok as long as you do not get bored with it or do not disagree.
> 
> OBTUSE - annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand...if I am annoying you...tough! Freedom of speech involves being annoyed and offended. Slow to understand?? I was hoping to gain some clarity about his wife's comment... I am glad you could take the time to explain what another mans wife was thinking.. I just want people to be honest!!! If they are going to go out and murder other people...do not hide behind pretty words... just say it...
> 
> I think I have been civil and have not stopped to your level...
> 
> I have 6 kids... 5 natural 1 adopted... 1 in the Corps, 1 in Christian College, 1 on the west coast married with kids and managing a large store, and 3 at home 5, 3, 1 1/2...
> 
> Up until this post I was a fan...I always liked Old (SF) Science Fiction Guy


ANd the slow to understand is how I meant the obtuse comment sir. I understand you are a committed person, but a person saying they will die to keep their child from dying is absolutely no different than saying you will die to protect yours...One would assume you are protecting them from harm, and the ultimate harm, short of separation from God, is death. It's semantics and I just feel your arguing for the sake of the argument now.

No sir you have yet to hit the low levels I have sunk to previously and I hope you maintain that higher position since you do have many good points to offer those of us out here reading your posts. I like you Maine...and Just as I often get others I respect and who respect me saying..Hey OSFG, you got out a line a little there...I am just saying to you...You know in your heart what it means when a woman says she will die to protect her kids. There is no need to try to turn something that primal and heartfelt into something awful and offensive.

I do find it curious how no matter how many times people have said they aren't talking about murdering to get stuff they need...Your only retort is to say, They want to murder you and your family. It's akin to saying "Push Granny off a cliff, or They hate women, or They hate minorities...It's the extremest position. Anyone...anyone who will murder you and yours to take what you have deserves to die. That was never the point of this thread, but has been your main point since early on. I agree with you whole heartedly on this point.

Also , I have a wife, and I had a mother. I know a thing or too about women...but I know nothing of any others man wife's thoughts or ideas and was generalizing what I have heard my own wife and others say...I would have to be blind to not inherently understand what she meant.

I apologize for the comments about being a parent...I went over board with that.


----------



## Denton

Jeep said:


> A couple of weeks a go a member posted that he would hot wire a boat and get. He got his shit jumped in for stealing. Now I am not one to wait and watch to throw a rock through a window and loot a place for the goodies. But at what point do you make a decision to go to a mostly deserted place or even still in chaos and "salvage" what you can for you and yours ? Here I know most of the store owners if its a local business. If I find them dead but they have 3 cans of corn beef hash still on the shelf am I wrong for taking it. I think not. There has to be a time when surviving a disaster where no laws exist anymore and free for all is on, that you need to go get what you can. Now let the beatings begin


Scenarios vary, but I believe moral people will understand the difference between picking up things not owned by individuals, not being important to the owner, and otherwise.

For example; my house will be vacant if the S hits the F. If I am not counting on it for shelter but someone else needs to get out of the elements, I don't mind and they need to use it.


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## Maine-Marine

Denton said:


> So, a robbing and murdering is OK as long as you first ask politely and humbly that I hand over my family's food?


If that line does not make you chuckle...


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## TG

What a thread....


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## Maine-Marine

Old SF Guy said:


> I apologize for the comments about being a parent...I went over board with that.


accepted and I apologize for also being a little pissie


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## Denton

So, let's get back on topic.

Total breakdown of society has occurred. Stores are abandoned, anarchy rules.

Is it OK to take that box of Snickers from the local WalMart?

Yeah, I said Snickers. Insert whatever thing you deem important. I'm sticking with Snickers!


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## Old SF Guy

Denton said:


> So, let's get back on topic.
> 
> Total breakdown of society has occurred. Stores are abandoned, anarchy rules.
> 
> Is it OK to take that box of Snickers from the local WalMart?
> 
> Yeah, I said Snickers. Insert whatever thing you deem important. I'm sticking with Snickers!


AHHH hELL No...I ain't going back in there boss....You can keep your damn medals...I'm going home sir.


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## Jeep

In an attempt to fix this thread by request, I am re Hijacking my own thread. Yeah I am immoral. My whole point of this was....not liberating someone elses shit at gunpoint or any other violent crime.

I own a 1997 Dodge truck, my main vehicle. I have one spare tire for it, and rim. Now if I choose to drive down to the interstate one day, well close to it, break out the binos and try to locate a similar truck, I find one and it has been sitting a long time. It has four good tires Not a sole insight and hasn't been for a week or more. Seems to me if I go get blocks and a jack and take the things I NEED, not want, and no one else seems to have a use for them, how long do I wait to put them to use before they are of no use to anyone. I am not advocating open theft or robbery, I think I am being practical, get your long range marksmanship shit out of here. What if questions set me off. If my sister had balls she would be my brother now wouldn't she. Get the topic straight


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## Kauboy

Maine-Marine said:


> I would like to know what she means.
> 
> If she is dead she can no longer help her kids..So it seems that dying would be the last thing..if protecting her kids was her top priority
> 
> would she kill me and my little boy in order take our food to feed her kids


I knew someone would think they were clever, and think they'd identified a paradox.
If her kids starve to death, she can't protect them anymore anyways.
Her final sacrifice to her kids will be her death trying to save them.
To you, she shouldn't try in the first place because she *could* die.
But if she doesn't, this situation would present a near certainty that her kids will.

The question isn't whether she would kill you for your food. (no need to kill your child, sicko, he would pose no threat)
Her answer speaks for itself.
The question would be if you, as a self-proclaimed "follower of Jesus Christ", would fulfill your christian duty, and provide to her what she needs to survive.
This would avoid the entire issue.
If your answer is no, for ANY reason you've justified in your head, then you're a hypocrite.


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## Old SF Guy

DId I ever tell you guys about this sports drink I got a case of over in Africa and brought home? It's no kidding brand named "Pussy". The funniest thing I'll ever remember is when I had some people over and my son was down stairs and yelled up, "Hey Dad?...We're down to just 5 cans of Pussy...You need to deploy again cause that stuff is great"...: To say the least it was hard not to laugh and equally harder to explain...they were church friends that were over visiting.


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## oldmurph58

Denton said:


> So, let's get back on topic.
> 
> Total breakdown of society has occurred. Stores are abandoned, anarchy rules.
> 
> Is it OK to take that box of Snickers from the local WalMart?
> 
> Yeah, I said Snickers. Insert whatever thing you deem important. I'm sticking with Snickers!


 yup, the key words "abandoned and anarcy rules". now if another groups already there, how bad do you want the snickers? its as much yours as theres but you will probably have to take it.


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## oddapple

Probably part of the reason it's an unending debate is because it's about a situational, individual thing that is, at the last, impossible to predict and submerged in variables.


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## Denton

oldmurph58 said:


> yup, the key words "abandoned and anarcy rules". now if another groups already there, how bad do you want the snickers? its as much yours as theres but you will probably have to take it.


I can get pretty grumpy if I don't have a Snickers.


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## Denton

Kauboy said:


> I knew someone would think they were clever, and think they'd identified a paradox.
> If her kids starve to death, she can't protect them anymore anyways.
> Her final sacrifice to her kids will be her death trying to save them.
> To you, she shouldn't try in the first place because she *could* die.
> But if she doesn't, this situation would present a near certainty that her kids will.
> 
> The question isn't whether she would kill you for your food. (no need to kill your child, sicko, he would pose no threat)
> Her answer speaks for itself.
> The question would be if you, as a self-proclaimed "follower of Jesus Christ", would fulfill your christian duty, and provide to her what she needs to survive.
> This would avoid the entire issue.
> If your answer is no, for ANY reason you've justified in your head, then you're a hypocrite.


Let me get this straight (Sorry, Jeep; I know this is off topic...),

You are saying that I am not conducting myself as a good Christian if I do not cough up my family's food for someone else? Am I understanding this correctly?

How much of my limited supplies, supplies I have gathered for my family's survival, am I to give away in order to meet your criteria for being a good Christian?

I am supposed to give away my lamp oil to those who preferred not to prepare? Yes, that is a Biblical reference.
What about those who do not provide for their family; what does the Bible say about that?

Christian duty. That duty doesn't include giving away that which your family needs in order to survive.


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## Jeep

This is also off topic but inline with your post. My wife is Mormon, although she is a "Jack" Mormon, meaning she does not conform to the churches ideas. The Mormon Church and LDS advocate SHTF readiness. They will also use violence as a remedy to a problem


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## Old SF Guy

I think the last time this topic came up we all met up at Denny's and had a fight in the parking lot. I'm pretty sure that the Christians forgave us and the sinners repented..and we all agreed to not talk about this again.

Damn you new folks....stirrin up trouble. Gonna make me go ghetto on yo asses...yu honky, cracker, slave ownin, bastids...wher's my obama bucks ma-fukr? some body got ta pay fo dese 4 kids. Got damn yo white ass racist ma-fukas!!!!!!!


Oh shit...wrong thread...ooopps


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## Notsoyoung

2Tim215 said:


> Good points. But you're still not seeing the picture I'm painting. It goes without saying that most here prep. Myself included. What I'm saying is we are all capable of evil under the right circumstances and motivation. Yourself included. "better to shoot on sight" you say. Killing someone for there food and just killing someone "in case" are the same in my book. I think I rest my case now.


I think that you need to read my post closer. I was basically saying that if someone like YOU came to a person's door with the intention to shoot that person if they refuse to give you food the simple way to stop people like YOU would be to shoot them on site....... I don't believe that I ever indicated that I was planning on doing so, but I guess if I had enough people like YOU show up I just might start.... but I would put up a warning sign.

I think that there is a difference between shooting someone to rob them and shooting someone to protect yourself, your family, and your property.


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## Jeep

Not so young your still promoting a wrong direction in this thread


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## Notsoyoung

Jeep said:


> Not so young your still promoting a wrong direction in this thread


Sorry, I hadn't noticed that you had been made a moderator.


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## Maine-Marine

Kauboy said:


> I knew someone would think they were clever, and think they'd identified a paradox.
> If her kids starve to death, she can't protect them anymore anyways.
> Her final sacrifice to her kids will be her death trying to save them.
> To you, she shouldn't try in the first place because she *could* die.
> But if she doesn't, this situation would present a near certainty that her kids will.
> 
> The question isn't whether she would kill you for your food. (no need to kill your child, sicko, he would pose no threat)
> Her answer speaks for itself.
> The question would be if you, as a self-proclaimed "follower of Jesus Christ", would fulfill your christian duty, and provide to her what she needs to survive.
> This would avoid the entire issue.
> If your answer is no, for ANY reason you've justified in your head, then you're a hypocrite.


I dislike when people misquote me and then fight against what they say I said...

you think I said " she shouldn't try in the first place because she *could* die" NO NO NO.. I never said anything like that... I am not opposed to people trying to protect or feed their families....I AM however against killing other people in order to do that

you said (no need to kill your child, sicko, he would pose no threat)... OK so you do not kill him..you kill me and leave a 5 year old to fend for himself... she is not going to take him with her to raise, he is an extra mouth to feed and he would be taking food out of her kids mouths.

as I have said before many times..I will provide a meal to anybody that shows up at my house...

For me..anybody that resorts to murder is ..well a murderer..

My view is a view based on eternity..not on 5, 10, or 20 years in the future...


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## Denton

Stop it, OSFG, or I will not share the Snickers.

Jeep, how do you split the hairs?

I think it is a moot point, really. Won't take long for all the stores to be empty.


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## Notsoyoung

The way I see it, if a store has obviously been abandoned and maybe has already been broken into, I may or may not check inside. Depends on how I feel at the time and if I think that they might actually have something I may want or need.

Homes are a different story. To begin, unless there is some type of pandemic where a large portion if not a majority of the population has died, I don't think that you will find many, if any, houses that are not occupied that actually has anything that you can use. Most people are going to stay in their homes until they are out of food and other supplies, and then they might leave to go looking for greener pastures. If I did find a home that I was SURE was unoccupied after a month or so after the SHTF, then I might check it out, depending on how close the neighbors are. They may be close friends or even relatives of the owners of the house, who probably wouldn't appreciate you breaking in, and also they would probably have already helped themselves if they thought the owners weren't coming back, so it wouldn't be worth the effort.

I would not try to rob an occupied house. Anyone who had survived that long would almost certainly be armed, and the only way you are going to get their food is by killing them. I heard the stories about you would kill them if your family was starving, but you are assuming that you will be the one doing the killing. You would be breaking into someone's house who had survived that long so would be both very careful, and probably able to protect themselves. Then you have to worry about the neighbors. They may not be real happy about you killing their friend or relative. Ask, yes. Take, no.


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## Old SF Guy

im done trying...you have proven to all be inconsolable die hards and I will kill you not for what you have but rather for your lack of humor....Yes You deserve death for your obstinate views. I will not kill your kids but will instead take them in and raise them as my own... speaking redneckanese ans bad ebonics as an insult to the masters of our country....so kill me before i kill you fo yo children and snickers....Im gonna raise them to chew redman and dip copenhagen.....they will learn that the only american indian is a slap-a ho and she deserves it. I'ma take yo golf shoes and your sunday sweater bitch. how you like what im sportin princes? Looks cool don't it!..sure cause it was yours bout five minutes ago bitch....Yo woman?...naw...now my cook.......bake me a cake woman...bake me a cake!!!! tis party time at the new OSFG Regime.....Welfare? thats what you pay my ***** ass to keep you liven punk. skrate up....ma-fukn skrate up.


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## Jeep

Um what does being a Mod have to do with my OP, your still on killing and rape. If you read on your own with out help, then realize this is not what I asked. Since when do I need to be a mod for an opinion


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## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> But now, to be fair, I will take on the role of the Devil's Advocate: How many men and women have been trained to capture the enemy stronghold? How many have been trained to capture the enemy supply depot? How many have been trained to obtain the objective at all costs and complete the mission? To do whatever is necessary to survive?
> 
> There are those who you may have never met that are the "sin eaters". They do the unthinkable to provide protection for others. Their souls are damned and they know it. But life can go on for others because they never have to know what was done in their defense. These "sin eaters" find no peace, they can't sleep through the night. They constantly question if what they did was right. But they bare that burden for everyone else because they know someone had to.
> 
> This has been a constant throughout history. In a world that has gone to Hell, the leaders of the families might find themselves forced to become the "sin eaters".


All, but that last line, is a direct quote from extensive therapy/counseling group session (conducted from 1980-1983). It was for 17 members of special forces veterans who had done missions in Laos. Those particular words were spoken by one of the VETERANS!!!! How does your foot taste my friend?


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## Zed

Well, in reality you won't even find a nail pouch in any store..You probably know how the walmart was looted during Hurricane Katrina?
It was cleaned..not even a paper was kept


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## Hemi45

Denton said:


> I can get pretty grumpy if I don't have a Snickers.


Yup, you're just not yourself ... Betty White


----------



## 2Tim215

Notsoyoung said:


> I think that you need to read my post closer. I was basically saying that if someone like YOU came to a person's door with the intention to shoot that person if they refuse to give you food the simple way to stop people like YOU would be to shoot them on site....... I don't believe that I ever indicated that I was planning on doing so, but I guess if I had enough people like YOU show up I just might start.... but I would put up a warning sign.
> 
> I think that there is a difference between shooting someone to rob them and shooting someone to protect yourself, your family, and your property.


YOU :lol: Still taking this so personally. I live in Africa so the chances of you getting to shoot people like ME on site is slim to say the least. Oh, warning sign. Let me see if I can find one that would read morally correct:

"This property is protected by a moral person who will shoot on sight just in case your intentions are bad. And no, it's not the same as shooting you for your food! Not the same. Dammit! Not the same!"


----------



## 2Tim215

This whole thing does raise a seriously moral dilemma. Me personally, I would not go around shooting people unless my life or those of my family was at risk. But who do you trust? And how do you know you can trust them in a world without law to enforce basic moral behavior? I think a lot of people will go killing spree when society breaks down. So how do you decide who is safe and who isn't?
This is not for the large organized group of preppers, but for the small family group who would be very vulnerable. Normal behavior when meeting or confronting people would not apply and trust will not exist.
My plan is to have enough to hole up for a year so I won't need to loot. If society or some semblance of it has not resurfaced by then, then it's a whole different ball game and all the rules will have changed.


----------



## Jeep

Did I not request people get on topic. WTF, this was never about any of this


----------



## 2Tim215

2Tim215 said:


> My plan is to have enough to hole up for a year so I won't need to loot. If society or some semblance of it has not resurfaced by then, then it's a whole different ball game and all the rules will have changed.


Sorry, thought I was.


----------



## Kauboy

Denton said:


> Let me get this straight (Sorry, Jeep; I know this is off topic...),
> 
> You are saying that I am not conducting myself as a good Christian if I do not cough up my family's food for someone else? Am I understanding this correctly?
> 
> How much of my limited supplies, supplies I have gathered for my family's survival, am I to give away in order to meet your criteria for being a good Christian?
> 
> I am supposed to give away my lamp oil to those who preferred not to prepare? Yes, that is a Biblical reference.
> What about those who do not provide for their family; what does the Bible say about that?
> 
> Christian duty. That duty doesn't include giving away that which your family needs in order to survive.


If we take a lesson from the followers of Christ following his death, we find a group of Christians who sold everything they personally owned in order to provide for any in need. When it would found out that one was hoarding money, he was called out.
My point was simple. If Maine says he will die a follower of Christ, then he should present no opposition to someone coming to him for food. If that is the case, then he should never worry about being killed for his preps by anyone like me or my wife.
He seems to have stated as such, so he is at least consistent, and I withdraw the potential "hypocrite" label.

Some followers are "less consistent"... that's all I'll say about that.


----------



## Kauboy

Maine-Marine said:


> I dislike when people misquote me and then fight against what they say I said...
> 
> you think I said " she shouldn't try in the first place because she *could* die" NO NO NO.. I never said anything like that... I am not opposed to people trying to protect or feed their families....I AM however against killing other people in order to do that
> 
> you said (no need to kill your child, sicko, he would pose no threat)... OK so you do not kill him..you kill me and leave a 5 year old to fend for himself... she is not going to take him with her to raise, he is an extra mouth to feed and he would be taking food out of her kids mouths.
> 
> as I have said before many times..I will provide a meal to anybody that shows up at my house...
> 
> For me..anybody that resorts to murder is ..well a murderer..
> 
> My view is a view based on eternity..not on 5, 10, or 20 years in the future...


I'll present the scenario I'd envision...
We(my wife and I) are not mean people. We are not bad people. But we are both people who agree that our kids come before anyone else.
That being said, violence would NOT be our first option. Far from it. I'm a passive individual, and she is too.
Your first contact with us, in this fictional scenario, would be a knock on the door in the least threatening manner possible, asking for something to feed our children.
I'm sure a sob story would be included, since to get to this point, we will have suffered quite a loss of personal preps.
If you are true to your word, and you offer them a meal, then we are grateful for it and will likely be on our way, looking to secure other means of sustenance now that their bellies are fuller.
However, if you refuse, as Denton seems to indicate (apologies if I misread that Dent), then we may decide to pilfer what we can from your stores, if possible.
Yes, that is a direct admission that we will attempt to steal from you.
Again however, that does NOT mean violence, though it very well may be reacted to with violence.
If we are caught in the act, we will choose to defend our lives, regardless of the unjust act that put us there, and that could lead to your death (or mine).

You and Notso seem to envision a scenario where your door is busted down in the dead of night and you are brutally murdered in your beds.
I assure you, this would NEVER be the case as far as my family is concerned.

In my above described scenario, where you catch us stealing, and due to random chance, end up dying, we are compassionate people and will indeed take in your child.
It is a horrible scenario in the end, but not outside the realm of possibility.

I do not justify the stealing of your goods to feed my children. But if I have no alternatives, the option is not taken off the table.
I hope to have many alternatives. I'm a survivalist first, and a prepper second.

This part of this discussion isn't as much one about what I or others would do to take from you or someone else.
This part of the discussion is more of an admission that we will do what it takes to survive.
In the end, survival is about 60% mental. You have to know what you're willing to do.
Would you cut your arm off it if was pinned under an immovable rock? (ala Aron Ralston)
Would you bite your frostbitten fingers off to prevent gangrene? (ala the "zeck" from Jack Reacher)
Would you steal from someone to feed your children, even if that meant someone could die?
What are you willing to do?
THAT is where I'm coming from in this.
That seems to be quite divergent from Jeep's original question, but it stems from my answer, "I'll do whatever is necessary."

I hope that clears it up a bit.
I mean no ill will toward you, Notso, or Denton.
We're all brothers here.
I don't hide who I am. Those that do are the ones you should be careful of.
Now you know where I stand.
Judge accordingly, but judge fairly.


----------



## Arklatex

Kauboy said:


> I'll present the scenario I'd envision...
> We(my wife and I) are not mean people. We are not bad people. But we are both people who agree that our kids come before anyone else.
> That being said, violence would NOT be our first option. Far from it. I'm a passive individual, and she is too.
> Your first contact with us, in this fictional scenario, would be a knock on the door in the least threatening manner possible, asking for something to feed our children.
> I'm sure a sob story would be included, since to get to this point, we will have suffered quite a loss of personal preps.
> If you are true to your word, and you offer them a meal, then we are grateful for it and will likely be on our way, looking to secure other means of sustenance now that their bellies are fuller.
> However, if you refuse, as Denton seems to indicate (apologies if I misread that Dent), then we may decide to pilfer what we can from your stores, if possible.
> Yes, that is a direct admission that we will attempt to steal from you.
> Again however, that does NOT mean violence, though it very well may be reacted to with violence.
> If we are caught in the act, we will choose to defend our lives, regardless of the unjust act that put us there, and that could lead to your death (or mine).
> 
> You and Notso seem to envision a scenario where your door is busted down in the dead of night and you are brutally murdered in your beds.
> I assure you, this would NEVER be the case as far as my family is concerned.
> 
> In my above described scenario, where you catch us stealing, and due to random chance, end up dying, we are compassionate people and will indeed take in your child.
> It is a horrible scenario in the end, but not outside the realm of possibility.
> 
> I do not justify the stealing of your goods to feed my children. But if I have no alternatives, the option is not taken off the table.
> I hope to have many alternatives. I'm a survivalist first, and a prepper second.
> 
> This part of this discussion isn't as much one about what I or others would do to take from you or someone else.
> This part of the discussion is more of an admission that we will do what it takes to survive.
> In the end, survival is about 60% mental. You have to know what you're willing to do.
> Would you cut your arm off it if was pinned under an immovable rock? (ala Aron Ralston)
> Would you bite your frostbitten fingers off to prevent gangrene? (ala the "zeck" from Jack Reacher)
> Would you steal from someone to feed your children, even if that meant someone could die?
> What are you willing to do?
> THAT is where I'm coming from in this.
> That seems to be quite divergent from Jeep's original question, but it stems from my answer, "I'll do whatever is necessary."
> 
> I hope that clears it up a bit.
> I mean no ill will toward you, Notso, or Denton.
> We're all brothers here.
> I don't hide who I am. Those that do are the ones you should be careful of.
> Now you know where I stand.
> Judge accordingly, but judge fairly.


Wouldn't it be easier to just move on to the next house than to steal food from someone who turned you down? Someone will help you sooner or later if it gets to that point of desperation.


----------



## pheniox17

Jeep said:


> Did I not request people get on topic. WTF, this was never about any of this


You think anyone will listen when there is a dick measuring contest??


----------



## Kauboy

Arklatex said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to just move on to the next house than to steal food from someone who turned you down? Someone will help you sooner or later if it gets to that point of desperation.


"_But if I have no alternatives..."_


----------



## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Well I for one would be more than happy to get back on target. 

There were just a few people who said they will let their families suffer and die before they did harm to others in order to feed them.

Those same people went on to say that everyone should do the same.

Not everyone agrees with that. So here we are. Did I miss anything?


----------



## Arklatex

Kauboy said:


> "_But if I have no alternatives..."_


I get your points. I am one who would take abandoned supplies. Keyword is abandoned, like the dusty cans sitting on a store shelf. In your scenario you would risk getting shot by Maine because you stole from him after charity was denied. It would be better for everyone to just starve a little longer and move on. Maybe I have too much faith in humanity: if I saw a young family weak with hunger I would help them any way I could. But theft will not be tolerated and violence begats violence. I don't consider it theft to take obviously abandoned supplies. Why let it go to waste?


----------



## paraquack

While I agree that threatening violence or violently taking what I need to survive from someone is immoral and hope I never get into that predicament, how many here with children can swear that when they listen to the moaning of their children, lying on the ground, their bellies swollen because you have not eaten in two weeks, wouldn't do something immoral and necessary to survive. It's easy to sit here today and say, "I'd never do such a thing!" Wait until you've buried a loved one who died of starvation or dehydration. We all have the capability to do immense good or bad. It just depends on the situation. That's why I prep, hoping to never be in that situation.


----------



## Kauboy

Arklatex said:


> I get your points. I am one who would take abandoned supplies. Keyword is abandoned, like the dusty cans sitting on a store shelf. In your scenario you would risk getting shot by Maine because you stole from him after charity was denied. It would be better for everyone to just starve a little longer and move on. Maybe I have too much faith in humanity: if I saw a young family weak with hunger I would help them any way I could. But theft will not be tolerated and violence begats violence. I don't consider it theft to take obviously abandoned supplies. Why let it go to waste?


Yes, it does turn into a "risk vs. reward" situation instead of a moral one when bellies have been empty for weeks.
I will not watch my child starve.
Plain and simple.


----------



## Salt-N-Pepper

Arklatex said:


> I don't consider it theft to take obviously abandoned supplies. Why let it go to waste?


Do you really think in a EOTW SHTF situation there are going go be a lot of cans of food sitting around collecting dust?


----------



## Arklatex

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Do you really think in a EOTW SHTF situation there are going go be a lot of cans of food sitting around collecting dust?


Nope. I don't think there will be anything left long enough to gather dust. At least in the stores. We've all seen it before.


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## 2Tim215

One good thing about this thread is it's good to see that there are still people that will help those in need - to a point that is:-D


----------



## big paul

Arklatex said:


> Nope. I don't think there will be anything left long enough to gather dust. At least in the stores. We've all seen it before.


depends where the store is-most of the idiots will be stealing,sorry looting, wide screen TV's although the power is off!! also depends on how quickly the "die off" started, a fast collapse could possibly leave some tins in an out of the way store somewhere. anyway that's why we stockpile food isn't it? so we don't have to depend on finding food cos we didn't bother to prep.


----------



## Kauboy

big paul said:


> depends where the store is-most of the idiots will be stealing,sorry looting, wide screen TV's although the power is off!! also depends on how quickly the "die off" started, a fast collapse could possibly leave some tins in an out of the way store somewhere. anyway that's why we stockpile food isn't it? so we don't have to depend on finding food cos we didn't bother to prep.


I've actually been thinking about that situation, where the idiots take useless crap.
I'm heading to the local Academy with cash in hand and trying to legally stock up on water filtration supplies, medical supplies, and lighting alternatives. Urgency will dictate that I should get the last things I can, though I have these items stored already.
I'll be avoiding the panic in the grocery stores, since I'll have food and that will be a savage place.
I'll also be avoiding the home improvement/hardware stores, since those always get hit during disasters.

Please note, I did say I would have CASH IN HAND to LEGALLY stock up.
However, after things have gone bad for long enough, this will still be my place to check for "abandoned" items.

EDIT: Just remembered Academy sells guns... that might become a dangerous place in its own right... might need to rethink my plan. Some place without easy access to weapons, but not a hot bed for moronic activity. (Walmart is right out :lol


----------



## Arklatex

big paul said:


> depends where the store is-most of the idiots will be stealing,sorry looting, wide screen TV's although the power is off!! also depends on how quickly the "die off" started, a fast collapse could possibly leave some tins in an out of the way store somewhere. anyway that's why we stockpile food isn't it? so we don't have to depend on finding food cos we didn't bother to prep.


Yes, that is why we prep. But everyone's situation is different. I live in a rural, isolated area. I already grow my own fruits and vegetables. And I have cows. But I also have plenty rice, beans, canned food, etc. stored to get through hard times. That is what will keep me from having to take in the first place. However, not everyone lives this way. Many on this forum live in large cities and may have to bug out through the hordes of unprepared people. They may have to do immoral things to reach safety.


----------



## big paul

we actually saw this a few years ago in the UK in what has become known over here as the "august" or "autumn " riots, people were stealing wide screen TV's and mobile phones(ok the power wasn't off and it was localised to a few boroughs in London)they then set fire to the stores as they left, although that was probably the Anarchists that joined in the riot rather than the looters themselves, just goes to show what some people are capable of, in a SHTF event I reckon it will be 100 times worse. anyway when the riots are on is NOT the time to go see what you can get hold off, that is the time to hunker down, lock the doors, cover the windows and stay quiet.


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## 2Tim215

Arklatex said:


> Yes, that is why we prep. But everyone's situation is different. I live in a rural, isolated area. I already grow my own fruits and vegetables. And I have cows. But I also have plenty rice, beans, canned food, etc. stored to get through hard times. That is what will keep me from having to take in the first place. However, not everyone lives this way. Many on this forum live in large cities and may have to bug out through the hordes of unprepared people. They may have to do immoral things to reach safety.


I live in the heart of Kwa Zulul Natal in a country where I am the 8% minority and am surrounded by 10 000 000 ethnic (I'm being politically correct:-D) people that will more than likely rape my wife and daughter in front of me before killing me, and that's just in my province (what you would call state). To get to my brother in the "safer" part of the country is a 1800km drive (if the car will get me there) through another possible 31 000 000 ethnic enemy. Now don't get me wrong, many are good people but my country has a rep for racial violence and in a no law scenario I would not bet our lives on them. Now to those that got a little upset about my standpoint concerning looting and shooting some individuals for food understand where I live and our history. Looting and killing would be the only way to survive. There is no hide in my prepped fortress and that is why my preps are only for a few months to a year, coz they will find me and we will have to run in a SHTF scenario. 
Some links: WARNING - very graphic and horribly gruesome - not for the fainthearted. And for the prick who thought I was some childish dimwit. 3 yrs special forces before my country was given away. Pathfinders 1 Parachute Battalion. 7 years Trapeze artist without safety net or belt - I know my fair share.
South African Farm MURDER Photos

Genocide Watch
Yes us whites are on Genocide watch - click the first red link to the PDF file - might open your ****in eyes.


----------



## 2Tim215

Oh and why am so pissed off - 3 brutal murders of elderly white people within a 8km radius of my home in 2 days.
And all the sites that had many more pics of what has been happening here are mysteriously gone.


----------



## Jeep

Your name should be Timbuk2


----------



## Denton

2Tim215 said:


> Oh and why am so pissed off - 3 brutal murders of elderly white people within a 8km radius of my home in 2 days.
> And all the sites that had many more pics of what has been happening here are mysteriously gone.


I don't think your situation is the same as being bantered about, here. Yours is more of a race war, and I do not think most in the West can fathom the depravity you could possibly face, one day. I pray you never have to face it.


----------



## Arklatex

Denton said:


> I don't think your situation is the same as being bantered about, here. Yours is more of a race war, and I do not think most in the West can fathom the depravity you could possibly face, one day. I pray you never have to face it.


That was along the lines of what I meant when everyone is in a different situation. Tim, good luck and stay safe.


----------



## oddapple

2Tim215 said:


> Oh and why am so pissed off - 3 brutal murders of elderly white people within a 8km radius of my home in 2 days.
> And all the sites that had many more pics of what has been happening here are mysteriously gone.


I would be forgetting pissed and getting ready to face an all out onslaught. Time there till bible conditions a matter of weeks.


----------



## 2Tim215

Sadly, I have. A few times. I may not have ten yrs of supplies but mentally I am prepped for the worst. So much so that my wife and I already have a plan on who I kill first if I must, her or my daughter. Think about that carefully some of you. The likelihood of me getting a very painful death afterwards is high, but I'd rather it be me than them. So looting and killing for food is the least of my moral dilemmas and as much of a christian as I am, I know enough about God not to expect Him to come riding to the rescue like the Lone Ranger.


----------



## 2Tim215

oddapple said:


> I would be forgetting pissed and getting ready to face an all out onslaught. Time there till bible conditions a matter of weeks.


:-D Not really that bad. Life carries on as normal, but we live in that perpetual state of anxiety and readiness (those of us not blinded by stupidity). Like the Jews, life was mostly normal until they were all pushed into ghettos. Even now, half the world doesn't believe that what happened there actually happened. Same here. It will, just a matter of time.


----------



## mcangus

big paul said:


> we actually saw this a few years ago in the UK in what has become known over here as the "august" or "autumn " riots, people were stealing wide screen TV's and mobile phones(ok the power wasn't off and it was localised to a few boroughs in London)they then set fire to the stores as they left, although that was probably the Anarchists that joined in the riot rather than the looters themselves, just goes to show what some people are capable of, in a SHTF event I reckon it will be 100 times worse. anyway when the riots are on is NOT the time to go see what you can get hold off, that is the time to hunker down, lock the doors, cover the windows and stay quiet.



















UK cops take lots of crap. I am surprised they can remain so calm.


----------



## Jeep

Well Tim I will always think about you and yours daily. Stay safe man


----------



## Alpha Mike Foxtrot

To those my posts have offended, I would like to take the time to apologize within this thread. I was viciously attacked for my opinion and then retaliated. I should not have retaliated. I have re-read my posts and stand by everyone of them. But I apologize to those I have offended. Thank you.


----------



## Jeep

None taken here Brother


----------



## Maine-Marine

Kauboy said:


> If we take a lesson from the followers of Christ following his death, we find a group of Christians who sold everything they personally owned in order to provide for any in need. When it would found out that one was hoarding money, he was called out.
> My point was simple. If Maine says he will die a follower of Christ, then he should present no opposition to someone coming to him for food. If that is the case, then he should never worry about being killed for his preps by anyone like me or my wife.
> He seems to have stated as such, so he is at least consistent, and I withdraw the potential "hypocrite" label.
> 
> Some followers are "less consistent"... that's all I'll say about that.


I hope you realize that the followers that sold all they had were using that to support OTHER FOLLOWERS...

We are told to give to those that ask..we are not told to give ALL they ask for...or even to continue to give...

As mentioned before the brides did not share their oil with those that did not prepare...

I will feed anybody that shows up at my door that is in need...I WILL NOT HAND OVER ALL MY FOOD...I will never murder....but I have no problem with killing


----------



## Maine-Marine

Kauboy said:


> I'll present the scenario I'd envision...
> We(my wife and I) are not mean people. We are not bad people. But we are both people who agree that our kids come before anyone else.
> That being said, violence would NOT be our first option. Far from it. I'm a passive individual, and she is too.
> Your first contact with us, in this fictional scenario, would be a knock on the door in the least threatening manner possible, asking for something to feed our children.
> I'm sure a sob story would be included, since to get to this point, we will have suffered quite a loss of personal preps.
> If you are true to your word, and you offer them a meal, then we are grateful for it and will likely be on our way, looking to secure other means of sustenance now that their bellies are fuller.
> However, if you refuse, as Denton seems to indicate (apologies if I misread that Dent), then we may decide to pilfer what we can from your stores, if possible.
> Yes, that is a direct admission that we will attempt to steal from you.
> Again however, that does NOT mean violence, though it very well may be reacted to with violence.
> If we are caught in the act, we will choose to defend our lives, regardless of the unjust act that put us there, and that could lead to your death (or mine).
> 
> You and Notso seem to envision a scenario where your door is busted down in the dead of night and you are brutally murdered in your beds.
> I assure you, this would NEVER be the case as far as my family is concerned.
> 
> In my above described scenario, where you catch us stealing, and due to random chance, end up dying, we are compassionate people and will indeed take in your child.
> It is a horrible scenario in the end, but not outside the realm of possibility.
> 
> I do not justify the stealing of your goods to feed my children. But if I have no alternatives, the option is not taken off the table.
> I hope to have many alternatives. I'm a survivalist first, and a prepper second.
> 
> This part of this discussion isn't as much one about what I or others would do to take from you or someone else.
> This part of the discussion is more of an admission that we will do what it takes to survive.
> In the end, survival is about 60% mental. You have to know what you're willing to do.
> Would you cut your arm off it if was pinned under an immovable rock? (ala Aron Ralston)
> Would you bite your frostbitten fingers off to prevent gangrene? (ala the "zeck" from Jack Reacher)
> Would you steal from someone to feed your children, even if that meant someone could die?
> What are you willing to do?
> THAT is where I'm coming from in this.
> That seems to be quite divergent from Jeep's original question, but it stems from my answer, "I'll do whatever is necessary."
> 
> I hope that clears it up a bit.
> I mean no ill will toward you, Notso, or Denton.
> We're all brothers here.
> I don't hide who I am. Those that do are the ones you should be careful of.
> Now you know where I stand.
> Judge accordingly, but judge fairly.


One option would be to try the house down the street...or do you plan on killing the people at the first house you try


----------



## Maine-Marine

2Tim215 said:


> Sadly, I have. A few times. I may not have ten yrs of supplies but mentally I am prepped for the worst. So much so that my wife and I already have a plan on who I kill first if I must, her or my daughter. Think about that carefully some of you. The likelihood of me getting a very painful death afterwards is high, but I'd rather it be me than them. So looting and killing for food is the least of my moral dilemmas and as much of a christian as I am, I know enough about God not to expect Him to come riding to the rescue like the Lone Ranger.


As you said "As much of a christian...." We can see your fruit, and know you by it


----------



## Jeep

I am by far the most violent person in my family and circle of friends. That being said, I have more kids dumped on me and sent to Grandpa because of my evil ways. I keep hearing this Christian thing. I am a Christian, Lutheran by denomination. But I do not hope my faith and that building down the road will protect me and mine. As far as I know God hasn't spoke to anyone for a couple of thousand years. Now please get off the religious mantra and on to the topic posted. Or don't post.


----------



## pheniox17

To the original topic, if its too good to be true it usually not

To Tim, sorry to hear mate, what's worse there is absolutely nothing you can do about it...

To religious beliefs, great, let it guide you, or not, remember you have to be able to sleep at night....


----------



## 2Tim215

pheniox17 said:


> To the original topic, if its too good to be true it usually not
> 
> To Tim, sorry to hear mate, what's worse there is absolutely nothing you can do about it...
> 
> To religious beliefs, great, let it guide you, or not, remember you have to be able to sleep at night....


Thanks Mate, who knows, maybe I win the lotto and join the rest of my fellow countrymen down under:-D



Maine-Marine said:


> As you said "As much of a christian...." We can see your fruit, and know you by it


Still being personal:lol:



Jeep said:


> Well Tim I will always think about you and yours daily. Stay safe man


Thanks Jeep, Like I said, things are normal here but one can never be too sure what's around the bend.

Personally I think looting/salvaging is a moot point here. 41 000 000 plus people. I don't think there will be much left when the dust settles. But much of Africa relies on subsistence farming so many would probably carry on as normal. It's the 1st world countries that are going to be hurt the most in a SHTF.


----------



## Jeep

I haven't slept in 7 years. Well there was one time.


----------



## Hemi45

2Tim215 said:


> It's the 1st world countries that are going to be hurt the most in a SHTF.


This is the Gospel truth! The higher up the ladder, the further the fall to the ground. When I was a young, dumb, arrogant kid I used to scoff at the notion of the meek inheriting the earth ... now I get it.


----------



## BagLady

But wonder if He has ever put you to the test in your land of milk and honey"...?? 2Tim215;
That's one of the most misunderstood falsehoods that foreigners have about the USA. The only way to have "Milk & Honey" here, is to work your butt off, and be smart. It doesnt matter if you work to get an education, or if you work flipping burgers. 
Although, if your from the Middle East, you can get millions in credit when you step off the plane to buy a 7-11.
Americans have to work for years to get enough credit to buy a car.


----------



## pheniox17

Jeep said:


> I haven't slept in 7 years. Well there was one time.


****en vets... Always complaining about sleep  (a joke by the way)

But a perfect example to the civilian commandos, the choices you make are important


----------



## pheniox17

Hemi45 said:


> This is the Gospel truth! The higher up the ladder, the further the fall to the ground. When I was a young, dumb, arrogant kid I used to scoff at the notion of the meek inheriting the earth ... now I get it.


Also we rely on a lot of 3rd world countries for low cost primary goods (I know a lot of local big chains use sa for trade)

But I'm going to miss the springboks kicking wannabes asses in the tri nations


----------



## Jeep

Pheniox that was fine by me


----------



## big paul

mcangus said:


> UK cops take lots of crap. I am surprised they can remain so calm.


they did take a load of stick for not getting straight away, and they had to be reinforced by police from other areas even as far south as Devon and Cornwall, you have to remember that in a serious SHTF event there are only 136,000 Police nationally to police a population of 64 million.


----------



## thepeartree

Kauboy said:


> I've actually been thinking about that situation, where the idiots take useless crap.
> I'm heading to the local Academy with cash in hand and trying to legally stock up on water filtration supplies, medical supplies, and lighting alternatives. Urgency will dictate that I should get the last things I can, though I have these items stored already.
> I'll be avoiding the panic in the grocery stores, since I'll have food and that will be a savage place.
> I'll also be avoiding the home improvement/hardware stores, since those always get hit during disasters.
> 
> Please note, I did say I would have CASH IN HAND to LEGALLY stock up.
> However, after things have gone bad for long enough, this will still be my place to check for "abandoned" items.
> 
> EDIT: Just remembered Academy sells guns... that might become a dangerous place in its own right... might need to rethink my plan. Some place without easy access to weapons, but not a hot bed for moronic activity. (Walmart is right out :lol


The bottom line is that people will do what they perceive that they need to in order for them and theirs to survive. That is how we are hard-wired by our evolution. That is not to say that there won't be acts of generosity in some cases but if it comes down to that last crust of bread or perfectly fresh Twinkie, it'll get ugly. And I, for one won't criticize the participants.

I've read a few hundred posts and there are two obvious things: there is absolutely no agreement as to what constitutes SHTF. And that there had been a serious lack of consensus about the definitions of salvaging, looting, and stealing. Hopefully we can think of some way to agree on definitions for these terms or we might as well all quit posting, because we're going to spend all our time arguing about them and nothing else gets discussed.

My own definitions follow-

SHTF - the same as TEOTWAWKI. Complete breakdown of civil order lasting for the forseeable future. That is coupled with an economic collapse.

Stealing - taking what doesn't belong to you with no attempt to pay for it.

Looting - as above under cover of civil unrest/rioting.

Salvaging/Scavanging - taking things whose owner(s) have abandoned them or have no basis for current ownership.

I don't insist that people use my definitions, but at least if people want to have a conversation with me, they will know where I'm coming from.

Oh, and those guys with the tvs...? They may be preppers and do have power, eh?


----------



## Notsoyoung

paraquack said:


> While I agree that threatening violence or violently taking what I need to survive from someone is immoral and hope I never get into that predicament, how many here with children can swear that when they listen to the moaning of their children, lying on the ground, their bellies swollen because you have not eaten in two weeks, wouldn't do something immoral and necessary to survive. It's easy to sit here today and say, "I'd never do such a thing!" Wait until you've buried a loved one who died of starvation or dehydration. We all have the capability to do immense good or bad. It just depends on the situation. That's why I prep, hoping to never be in that situation.


I also believe that is why everyone should prep, and a part of prepping is to be prepared to kill those who will try to take your supplies from YOU by force. I am sure that when push comes to shove, every one of them will have what they consider a good reason for killing someone for their food. When I hear people basically saying that they will kill anyone who refuses to give them food, you have to realize that the end result is that people will just start shooting first and questions later if they see anyone approaching their homes.

What concerns me are those who have already decided that they are going to kill others for their supplies. If your 5 year old is starving, why not just send HER to knock on the door so that SHE and only SHE gets a meal? Let me guess, you and your wife need to be fed to protect your child. If you have already decided that you are going to kill the old folks on a farm for their food, why wait once the SHTF? After all, they will be eating up those supplies that could keep your children alive later on. Kill them now, for the children's sake!

Were I one of these people's neighbor and was aware of their intentions, the obvious thing to do for my family's safety would be to kill them as soon as the SHTF because I would know that they intend to kill me and my family if things go South. The end result? Everyone will be trying to kill each other. It's won't be the roaming thugs and marauders that you have to worry about, it's the little old lady with a shotgun or the guy down the street who is going to kill you on sight either because they want what you have or they think that you are going to kill them. Just remember, the ones with children will be the really dangerous ones, so take them out first.


----------



## Notsoyoung

big paul said:


> they did take a load of stick for not getting straight away, and they had to be reinforced by police from other areas even as far south as Devon and Cornwall, you have to remember that in a serious SHTF event there are only 136,000 Police nationally to police a population of 64 million.


And let's not forget, many of them will stay home to protect THEIR families.


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## big paul

Notsoyoung said:


> And let's not forget, many of them will stay home to protect THEIR families.


yes, exactly so. they'll have problems just hanging onto London with its 7 million population( including a huge number of Moslems who will "kick off" at the slightest opportunity) never mind bothering with my "back of beyond, nowheresville!!


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## CWOLDOJAX

Cain killed Abel. 
Cain was not hungry.
Cain was obsessed (not possessed) with power.
Abel was a farmer and never killed to eat.
Abel was the first human to die.
Cain was the first person to murder.
A very raw scene. 
The cold truth is some will be Cain and some will be Abel.
Abel never considered a need to defend himself... I bet he would now.


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## Maine-Marine

CWOLDOJAX said:


> Cain killed Abel.
> Cain was not hungry.
> Cain was obsessed (not possessed) with power.
> Abel was a farmer and never killed to eat.
> Abel was the first human to die.
> Cain was the first person to murder.
> A very raw scene.
> The cold truth is some will be Cain and some will be Abel.
> Abel never considered a need to defend himself... I bet he would now.


Some of us learned from Cain and Abel... In life you are either an example or a warning

SHTF will be like boxing >Protect yourself at all times<


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## alterego

Interesting I had a corse today the police officer instructor stated it is not illegal to break and enter into a residents and take food if your life is in direct threat with out it. He indicated a case where he arrested a man who was going into diabetic shock and broke into a house and was held at gun point by a farmer. He was unable to explain him self because of his blood sugar levels sent him into shock. The prosecuting attorney let him off with no criminal charge once he was able to explain him self.


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## Hemi45

alterego said:


> Interesting I had a corse today the police officer instructor stated it is not illegal to break and enter into a residents and take food if your life is in direct threat with out it. He indicated a case where he arrested a man who was going into diabetic shock and broke into a house and was held at gun point by a farmer. He was unable to explain him self because of his blood sugar levels sent him into shock. The prosecuting attorney let him off with no criminal charge once he was able to explain him self.


Wow, cool story. In Florida a homeowner has the right to shoot anyone who breaks into their home, armed or not, if they fear for their safety. That would make for a heck of a case, now wouldn't it? Glad your story had a happy ending and no one got killed.


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## Maine-Marine

alterego said:


> Interesting I had a corse today the police officer instructor stated it is not illegal to break and enter into a residents and take food if your life is in direct threat with out it. He indicated a case where he arrested a man who was going into diabetic shock and broke into a house and was held at gun point by a farmer. He was unable to explain him self because of his blood sugar levels sent him into shock. The prosecuting attorney let him off with no criminal charge once he was able to explain him self.


The fact that the attorney let him off...does not mean it is legal...

And this case should not be an example for future SHTF event...I guarantee you that people will need to worry less about police and more about who is in the house


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## Arklatex

Hemi45 said:


> Wow, cool story. In Florida a homeowner has the right to shoot anyone who breaks into their home, armed or not, if they fear for their safety. That would make for a heck of a case, now wouldn't it? Glad your story had a happy ending and no one got killed.


It's like that in Texas too. Someone kicks my door in with no explanation like that and they will be swiss cheese...


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## thepeartree

Yes, better to have your head straight and know what your actions would be than to be faced by a or death situation and get yourself ( and others) killed because you haven't thought it all through. Better to go off into the mountains and not return than fail that test of faith.


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## thepeartree

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> Absolutely true....if nothing else it was a healthy exercise in theory and planning. Anything that makes us think and learn is good. And learning to agree and disagree helps as well. Any forum can have easy topics. Diving into the deep, thought provoking stuff is what helps us to grow.





Maine-Marine said:


> BY the time my preps are finished/gone..there will be nothing in any big box store worth taking


All I can say is: you're lucky. And don't doubt it. You have the luxury to be able to put away enough to keep your family going for years. Not everyone is that lucky. Doesn't mean we are bad... Or stupid... We're just caught in a spot where we're going to have to do what little we can and hope it's enough.


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## oddapple

When 6 billion people are hungry, or even 50% of any place, the excuse "I was hungry" won't work. The answer then is "everybody's hungry". 
The other thing will be, thanks to 2 skums in dc, that the excuse "they broke in and held my wife with a knife and I shot" will just be an excuse to get rid of you too.
If SHTF and you kill an obamanite, don't call any 911. They'll be worse.


----------



## thepeartree

oddapple said:


> When 6 billion people are hungry, or even 50% of any place, the excuse "I was hungry" won't work. The answer then is "everybody's hungry".
> The other thing will be, thanks to 2 skums in dc, that the excuse "they broke in and held my wife with a knife and I shot" will just be an excuse to get rid of you too.
> If SHTF and you kill an obamanite, don't call any 911. They'll be worse.


Oddapple,
If it really IS shtf time by MY definition, there won't be anyone TO call nor likely any phone service to use. Not that I would bother. I have no trouble with the concept of killing in self-defense or defense of my loved ones. Beyond that, you tell me the exact circumstances and I'll be happy to tell you if I would feel justified in killing someone. If someone comes near me with violence in mind, all bets are off. That includes letting them throw the first punch. Not gonna happen.

By the way, my local Rural King has Mossberg 870's for under $300. Is that a good price? And ammo for $22.49 a 100...


----------



## oddapple

To my knowing yes. Seems like the boys spend 2-300 depending and that is a good deal. But I'd check a few more opinions. Not my area beyond point & press.


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## Slippy

thepeartree said:


> By the way, my local Rural King has Mossberg 870's for under $300. Is that a good price? And ammo for $22.49 a 100...


peartree,
I do not believe that Mossberg makes a model 870. Remington does. Either way if it is a new 12 g shotgun, sub $300 is a good price. If it is a Mossberg, it may be their Maverick series which is a lower priced line but good nonetheless.


----------



## thepeartree

Slippy said:


> peartree,
> I do not believe that Mossberg makes a model 870. Remington does. Either way if it is a new 12 g shotgun, sub $300 is a good price. If it is a Mossberg, it may be their Maverick series which is a lower priced line but good nonetheless.


Sorry, you're right. Just an ad overload this week. It's getting close to hunting season, so the hunting equipment is all over the circulars. Things are getting a mite strange... camo bikinis??? Oh my! There's also something called a Hawk Defense Pump 12 ga. For $200. Never heard of that brand. And the 870 is $280.


----------



## Derma-Redi

Hemi45 said:


> Dead shopkeeper who has no need for those few remaining cans - no problem. Killing the shopkeeper for those few remaining cans - problem.


well said. Ferguson was looting for no good reason other than to act like an animal, your scenario speaks of survival so I don't think you would be wrong...


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## Derma-Redi

Just found this story!!! 
Hurricane strands tourists, sparks looting in Mexico


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## TacticalCanuck

Uhhg got a headache sittin in


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## Denton

thepeartree said:


> Sorry, you're right. Just an ad overload this week. It's getting close to hunting season, so the hunting equipment is all over the circulars. Things are getting a mite strange... camo bikinis??? Oh my! There's also something called a Hawk Defense Pump 12 ga. For $200. Never heard of that brand. And the 870 is $280.


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## Denton

Sorry. I felt it was necessary. :lol:


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## tspearman48

To me it's about maintaining one's integrity . . . exhausting all other means before resorting to desperate measures. If one preps diligently with a plan in mind the situation you pose probably won't ever happen. It's easier to go in the store before the SHTF and spend $2.50 on the 3 cans of corn beef hash than risk one's life from a protective store owner after the SHTF, who incidentally, has every right to shoot you. Poor planning, not exploring your options, and failing to incorporate risk management strategies leads to the situation you describe here. 

Here is how I'd go about getting the equivalent of three cans of corn beef hash after the SHTF. Take my suppressed Stoeger X20 airgun into the woods, that can silently send a 3 cent .22 caliber pellet downrange at 800 feet per second, and aim it at a fluffy cottontail rabbit. Not only do I get the very healthy rabbit meat, but the fur as well which can be made into very nice cold weather gloves.

I think someone posted a thread here about the virtues of airguns versus .22 rimfire guns. He makes an excellent point about the availability of cheap ammo and the effectiveness/lethality of the Hatsan 125 airgun, which I happen to own and can attest to its effectiveness. If you go to Airgun Depot.com and look up the Hatsan 125 in .22 caliber (sells for $199), I wrote a piece on it. It's unbelievable what it can do. Of course I prefer the spring version, which is cheaper than the Vortex piston. The guy who posted the blog claims he took out a 230 pound hog . . . and I believe him! How's that for corned hash?


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## Arklatex

You better wear running shoes and be in shape if you're gonna try to take a hog with an airgun.


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## TG

tspearman48 said:


> To me it's about maintaining one's integrity . . . exhausting all other means before resorting to desperate measures. If one preps diligently with a plan in mind the situation you pose probably won't ever happen. It's easier to go in the store before the SHTF and spend $2.50 on the 3 cans of corn beef hash than risk one's life from a protective store owner after the SHTF, who incidentally, has every right to shoot you. Poor planning, not exploring your options, and failing to incorporate risk management strategies leads to the situation you describe here.
> 
> Here is how I'd go about getting the equivalent of three cans of corn beef hash after the SHTF. Take my suppressed Stoeger X20 airgun into the woods, that can silently send a 3 cent .22 caliber pellet downrange at 800 feet per second, and aim it at a fluffy cottontail rabbit. Not only do I get the very healthy rabbit meat, but the fur as well which can be made into very nice cold weather gloves.
> 
> I think someone posted a thread here about the virtues of airguns versus .22 rimfire guns. He makes an excellent point about the availability of cheap ammo and the effectiveness/lethality of the Hatsan 125 airgun, which I happen to own and can attest to its effectiveness. If you go to Airgun Depot.com and look up the Hatsan 125 in .22 caliber (sells for $199), I wrote a piece on it. It's unbelievable what it can do. Of course I prefer the spring version, which is cheaper than the Vortex piston. The guy who posted the blog claims he took out a 230 pound hog . . . and I believe him! How's that for corned hash?


Welcome to the forum


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## tspearman48

Thanks. Glad to be here.


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## SquirrelBait

So, It boils down to Keenness of need, Timing, And context? A fluid situation. My best advice is to fill your needs while doing the least harm to the harmless. 

Best I can do.


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## 3forus

and I will ask what the heck type of prepper are you, if you personaly have not meet your families needs obligation? It's not my families fault we prep and plan , I would never take from others , that is only going to get one to the head, then you are dead. I will ask if I need somthing to feed my kids, but I prep to NOT be in that situation. Never resort to LOOTING and STEALING as you will end up dead. If you can humble your heart and let your needs be know to others in your area, you have a much bigger chance of living to see the next day to help those that need you, so this is why we must be prepared to get though.


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## Kauboy

3forus said:


> and I will ask what the heck type of prepper are you, if you personaly have not meet your families needs obligation? It's not my families fault we prep and plan , I would never take from others , that is only going to get one to the head, then you are dead. I will ask if I need somthing to feed my kids, but I prep to NOT be in that situation. Never resort to LOOTING and STEALING as you will end up dead. If you can humble your heart and let your needs be know to others in your area, you have a much bigger chance of living to see the next day to help those that need you, so this is why we must be prepared to get though.


For me, prepping is not just about storing enough things, and learning skills to survive.
It is about accepting reality.
It is about recognizing the fact that this world may become a cold and heartless bitch when the lights go out.
Preparing to survive in *THAT* world is something very few have given any thought to.
We all hope civility will hold society together.
We all hope our peace-time preparations will be sufficient.
We all hope our gun cabinets will protect us.
For this prepper, hope isn't enough.
As a ****LAST RESORT**, I have prepared myself to become something terrible to keep my family alive.

I do not like it, and I do not begrudge anyone who despises me for it.

Unless you've taken a deep and *TRUE* look at yourself, and decided which path you will take *IF* that time comes, your preparations are lacking.


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## 3forus

well I truly think if one is going to resort to looting and stealing one must inform ones family that you will not be coming back to them. I have a plan I have a large amount of people and we will have no qualms about killing anyone trying to take what is ours and what we have been preparing for.

Now if you are in desperate need make your self known to work for your food . Learn skills and don't think that anyone is going to go easy just giving you what you want , if that is your thought I would rethink the plans.


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## Jeep

3forus, this was never about open theft or murder, it was a time and place scenario. If cars 6 months after the fact are abandoned on roads and YOU know the extent of the End world, all I asked is when it would be ok to go and maybe siphon gas or take a tire. Why would you suffer if there were no one to harm in taking wiring or whatever. I hope you already have your next 30 years of stuff on the shelves, good day


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## 3forus

Jeep said:


> 3forus, this was never about open theft or murder, it was a time and place scenario. If cars 6 months after the fact are abandoned on roads and YOU know the extent of the End world, all I asked is when it would be ok to go and maybe siphon gas or take a tire. Why would you suffer if there were no one to harm in taking wiring or whatever. I hope you already have your next 30 years of stuff on the shelves, good day


well what you are asking is not looting or stealing, that is what I call re purposing, that is called recycling . If you know no one is coming back after 6 months if it was outside on the hwy, but don't think that a car in a driveway is fair game. And no I'm not preped for 30 years and I don't think anyone can be. But you need to do for yourself as much as you can and not resort to getting yourself killed to procure stuff that your family will need.


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## Jeep

Was exactly the whole point of a now lost thread


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## 3forus

Jeep said:


> Was exactly the whole point of a now lost thread


well I'm so sorry you feel you needed to have an OK from others. I did not kill the thread as I have said you try looting or stealing you will get one to the head, this is a PREPPING FORUM, if you need an OK to take and loot that's up to you and your GOD , but I will awaly;s say get yourself prepped and don't think you can take with out a fetal injurry to one self . PLAN and SIMPLE.


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## Jeep

You still haven't got the point. You confirmed for me what I asked. I wasn't looking for an OK I was wondering what the General consensus was, and if you think I am so quick to get shot you best think again.


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## Slippy

Is this still the Head on a Pike thread?


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## tspearman48

I would never take a hog with an air gun . . . not very safe, but if I had to it would be a big bore PCP repeater air gun by Sam Yang. Been known to take down much larger game than hogs.


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## Arklatex

tspearman48 said:


> I would never take a hog with an air gun . . . not very safe, but if I had to it would be a big bore PCP repeater air gun by Sam Yang. Been known to take down much larger game than hogs.


My wallet is begging you to start a thread on airguns. Please convince me of why I need one. I have been very interested in them lately.


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## Old SF Guy

3forus said:


> well I'm so sorry you feel you needed to have an OK from others. I did not kill the thread as I have said you try looting or stealing you will get one to the head, this is a PREPPING FORUM, if you need an OK to take and loot that's up to you and your GOD , but I will awaly;s say get yourself prepped and don't think you can take with out a fetal injurry to one self . PLAN and SIMPLE.


Do you actually read the threads....He asked a question...a legitimate one of how people thought about a topic...but the holier than thou turned it into a "Your gonna murder and kill my kids for my food" discussion. then again the holier than thou say...If you try to steal from me I will kill you. But won't answer if they would help that person if they offered work for food.

Then again the holier than Thou says you should Prep....and completely discount the discussion where sometimes you may lose what you have prepped or be caught many many miles away when the SHTF.

So your saying there is no way that you could be driven from your prep site or there is no way you could be 100's to 1000's of miles from it when the SHTF. The discussion wasn't about NOT being prepared...it was about WHAT IF I HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING....but the holier than thou are stuck on IF YOU STEAL FROM ME I WILL KILL YOU....

It's great you prep...its great your prepared to kill to defend it. I am too....but I won't lie to myself about what I would do IF I HAD NO OTHER CHOICE and my kids lives were hanging in the balance.

Again....The thread wasn't about Stealing your food...but since thats the only way many of you can conceive of this...never considering that people leave...people die....things are left behind....I guess it just belongs to whoever lives next door to them right?

This thread gets more screwy by the day....


----------



## Old SF Guy

3forus said:


> and I will ask what the heck type of prepper are you, if you personaly have not meet your families needs obligation? It's not my families fault we prep and plan , I would never take from others , that is only going to get one to the head, then you are dead. I will ask if I need somthing to feed my kids, but I prep to NOT be in that situation. Never resort to LOOTING and STEALING as you will end up dead. If you can humble your heart and let your needs be know to others in your area, you have a much bigger chance of living to see the next day to help those that need you, so this is why we must be prepared to get though.


and I am actually happy for you that your plans are so thorough that you never have to consider that the SHTF event itself happens on the place where all your preps are located....I suppose you have sites planned throughout the country...well stocked and a clear highway to get to it. And I hope that your plan works exactly as you have made them and you never need to consider any other alternatives to your plans.


----------



## Slippy

Old SF Guy said:


> Do you actually read the threads....He asked a question...a legitimate one of how people thought about a topic...but the holier than though turned it into a "Your gonna murder and kill my kids for my food" discussion. then again the holier than thou say...If you try to steal from me I will kill you. But won't answer if they would help that person if they offered work for food.
> 
> Then again the holier than Thou says you should Prep....and completely discount the discussion where sometimes you may lose what you have prepped or be caught many many miles away when the SHTF.
> 
> So your saying there is no way that you could be driven from your prep site or there is no way you could be 100's to 1000's of miles from it when the SHTF. The discussion wasn't about NOT being prepared...it was about WHAT IF I HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING....but the holier than thou are stuck on IF YOU STEAL FROM ME I WILL KILL YOU....
> 
> It's great you prep...its great your prepared to kill to defend it. I am too....but I won't lie to myself about what I would do IF I HAD NO OTHER CHOICE and my kids lives were hanging in the balance.
> 
> Again....The thread wasn't about Stealing your food...but since thats the only way many of you can conceive of this...never considering that people leave...people die....things are left behind....I guess it just belongs to whoever lives next door to them right?
> 
> This thread gets more screwy by the day....


Slippy quietly grins and then goes back to planning his "Head on a Pike" thingy...


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## Jeep

I was gonna be a smart ass, but I think you drove the point home.


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## Old SF Guy

WHere I come from we make multiple plans Primary, Alternate, contingency, emergency... My emergency plan includes getting resources from where ever the hell I can, with every attempt to not harm someone or take what they need to survive themselves....But ****ing Walmart and Piggly Wiggly will be on my shopping list IF I HAVE NO OTHER OPTION....WHAT ****ING PART OF NO OTHER OPTION DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND...IF ITS DEATH FOR MY KIDS OR TAKE ****ING PIGGLY WIGGLY BY FORCE....I"M ****ING TAKING PIGGLY >>>GODDAMN>>>> WIGGLY AT ALL COSTS.

AS Long as you are not considering Piggly Wiggly as your Bug out Location...you will never get the opportunity to shoot my decrepit ass..


SO Judge me if you want...I personally don't give a flying **** what you think of me now, later or anytime....yeah I'm an evil rotten old son of a bitch...but my kids will be alive...so I don't really care about how far up in the air you can lift your nose and still see me.


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## Jeep

I'm waiting for the Hellfire and Brimstone to hit my house man. But I whole heartedly agree, and wish some folks could actually process the info they read.


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## Slippy

Old SF Guy said:


> WHere I come from we make multiple plans Primary, Alternate, contingency, emergency... My emergency plan includes getting resources from where ever the hell I can, with every attempt to not harm someone or take what they need to survive themselves....But ****ing Walmart and Piggly Wiggly will be on my shopping list IF I HAVE NO OTHER OPTION....WHAT ****ING PART OF NO OTHER OPTION DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND...IF ITS DEATH FOR MY KIDS OR TAKE ****ING PIGGLY WIGGLY BY FORCE....I"M ****ING TAKING PIGGLY >>>GODDAMN>>>> WIGGLY AT ALL COSTS.
> 
> AS Long as you are not considering Piggly Wiggly as your Bug out Location...you will never get the opportunity to shoot my decrepit ass..
> 
> SO Judge me if you want...I personally don't give a flying **** what you think of me now, later or anytime....yeah I'm an evil rotten old son of a bitch...but my kids will be alive...so I don't really care about how far up in the air you can lift your nose and still see me.


Slippy quietly scratches off the Piggly Wiggly as his back up bug out location...


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## Old SF Guy

I met a couple once...The husband said...under no circumstances would he shoot or harm another human being...I asked him if a man broke in and was raping his wife, would he grab a knife or a bat or anything and attack him and try to kill or stop him? He said no...I would call the cops..

I have never seen a woman look at her husband with such disgust in my life.... 

Some of you sound like him to me. Not that your not willing to kill to protect what is yours (food wise), but your unwilling to do whatever is necessary to keep your kids alive, proclaiming I prepped for it and my preps will never fail if I have prepped correctly. SOme of you bring forth the religious point and that I do respect...good on you...your a better man than I. I'm not sure if your kids would feel that way or if my kids would feel that way...The difference is my kids might be alive to feel that way a little longer..."God Dad was a evil bastard....hand me some more pork chops Tommy.... He stole from Piggly Wiggly and stealing is wrong....can I get some more Beans Mamma.....?"


----------



## Old SF Guy

Jeep said:


> I'm waiting for the Hellfire and Brimstone to hit my house man. But I whole heartedly agree, and wish some folks could actually process the info they read.


They won't...Its turned into a "Let me show you I am better than you" discussion...completely missing the point of exactly what it would take to push Good people over the edge and force us to do things we actually would rather never do... But in the land of sugar plums and fairy tales...no ones plan ever fails.

This is one thread that just pisses me off more than any other...


----------



## Arklatex

OSFG tells it how it is. *OSFG drops the mike*


----------



## Slippy

Old SF Guy said:


> They won't...Its turned into a "Let me show you I am better than you" discussion...completely missing the point of exactly what it would take to push Good people over the edge and force us to do things we actually would rather never do... But in the land of sugar plums and fairy tales...no ones plan ever fails.
> 
> This is one thread that just pisses me off more than any other...


Slippy quietly makes a note to dedicate his next paycheck to buying some sugar plums and fairy tales...


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## Arklatex

Am I crazy or did a post just get deleted...


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## Fuzzee

I think we can all be self righteous all we want and try to be good people doing the right thing as much as possible but when it gets bad, not kind of bad, but really bad, people are going to find themselves thinking all kinds of things they sneered at in the past. Surviving means doing what you have to, if you have to. And not doing means death if it comes to it.


















.


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## Old SF Guy

Arklatex said:


> Am I crazy or did a post just get deleted...


You said OSFG drops the mike...I thought that was a good exit point.

I am pissed off enough and I'm sure I have pissed enough people off here.


----------



## Jeep

Amen to that


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## Maine-Marine

Kauboy said:


> I have prepared myself to become something terrible to keep my family alive.
> 
> I do not like it, and I do not begrudge anyone who despises me for it.
> 
> Unless you've taken a deep and *TRUE* look at yourself, and decided which path you will take *IF* that time comes, your preparations are lacking.


I have taken a deep and true look at Jesus and I am prepared to die rather then offended him... Starve, shot, beheaded, stoned, hung, etc...the form of death does not matter - It boils down to risking life in hell to add another day/week/month to this life....Its funny, if you think about it...

Would you kill somebody to live another 3 days on this earth if you were going spend eternity on hell for doing it


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## Arklatex

The cycle continues...


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## Maine-Marine

This thread was going ok until the I AM PREPARED TO KILL EVERYBODY THAT LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE FOOD crowd started getting involved and the PIGGLY WIGGLY PERVERTS.. come on man..how long can you survive on ding dongs, pork rinds, and energy drink... Yes you can take and hold the PIG but your going to be shaking so bad on day three you could not hit a barn.

There are always the "IT IS OK AS LONG AS IT IS ME THATS DOING THE KILLING" that are just waiting for the shoe to drop so they can start knocking on doors and scoping people out... Its like they are the Prepper INTERNET MARINES... The Few The unprepared, the zombies.

(Just thought I would help the thread fall apart a little more)


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## Old SF Guy

NO maine...you and your group came in and made this about folks trying to kill you and your kids...you can go back and look at it if you want....But in the end it doesn't matter...I will do what I think I must and you will call me and those like me names....Thats OK too.


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## Old SF Guy

Maine-Marine said:


> The above is a nice way of saying -"I will kill your family, your wife, kids, baby, mother and you...if I need it for my family to survive"
> 
> Its all up for grabs is a nice way of saying you are going to do for you and yours and screw anybody you do not know.
> 
> I am guessing that you will be one of the first ones dead...
> 
> I will be one of the ones that are keeping and enforcing a rule of law based on the teachings of Jesus Christ...Remember he did say to take a sword...
> 
> While you may choose competition, I will choose compassion...Chances are I will never run into you...but there are plenty like you and hopefully...I can rid the world of a few of you before I kick off.
> 
> Only those that show compassion are worthy to receive it!


I think this was the first time it was mentioned BTW....


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## pheniox17

Well this is still going ****

Will re point out my views 

1. You have to sleep at night

2. Its a moral bridge people will cross and need to cross in due time

3. Use the time, instead of worrying about a moral bridge, but learn how to not be in that situation to start with (prevention is better than cure) 

And 4. If you become one of those raping killing, looting types, may your death be slow and painful (if its a case of taking from those types, or finding supplies in a dead mans or abandoned home, so be it) 

5. Remember if its too good to be true, it is (food in plain sight screams trap!!)


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## shotlady




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## Old SF Guy

Did I later say that I would do whatever was necessary to ensure the survival of my family....Yes...and I will...but I will always endeavor to not harm anyone in doing so. But never doubt that when desperation kicks in...I will act accordingly....


But don't try for one moment to say you didn't take this thread down a path it wasn't intended Main...You can't hit the delete Post button fast enough to hide the facts. I'm not trying to be a dick to you...but don't try to tell me its a nice rain shower...as your pissing into the fan you've pointed in my direction.


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## Arklatex

shotlady said:


>


Shotlady keeps adding to my arsenal of reaction pics!


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## shotlady

fb marines of helmand & al anbar province have a lot of super meme pics! I love them 
also the suicide ptsd marine fb page has super memes!


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## Old SF Guy

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> Some of the people in my group looked at the moral and ethical implications of post TEOTWAWKI survival. We came to the conclusion that law and order cease to exist when the bodies that create the law and the bodies that enforce the law cease to exist as well. At that point we are left with the opposing forces of competition and compassion.
> 
> its all up for grabs and survival of the fittest will rule as law. We will be allowed to keep that which we can successfully defend.
> 
> I can see myself living and dying by a code of conduct, but watching my family starve to provide myself with the luxury of moral fiber would be selfish and wrong as well.


And Maine your early response was on page 4 after the above comment where the guy was clearly saying that Law would not be present and he would be governed by his personal code of conduct and he would "Keep that which he could successfully defend" Nowhere in his post did he say...all bets are off and I'll kill your family to keep mine going...but you drove it that way and still persist in doing so.

revisionist history may work elsewhere....but not here where people have memories longer than 10 minutes and intellect.

let the name calling commence.....


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## Old SF Guy

You could have asked him to clarify what he meant...or asked him would he become a killer etc....but no...You immediately called him a baby killer and tried to put him into a sub human catagory and that prompted me to come in and make comments... So it is easy to look back in time to see when this thread took a detour into insanity and trace it right squarely back to one simple post....Yours.


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## Hemi45

Old SF Guy said:


> WHere I come from we make multiple plans Primary, Alternate, contingency, emergency... My emergency plan includes getting resources from where ever the hell I can, with every attempt to not harm someone or take what they need to survive themselves....But ****ing Walmart and Piggly Wiggly will be on my shopping list IF I HAVE NO OTHER OPTION....WHAT ****ING PART OF NO OTHER OPTION DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND...IF ITS DEATH FOR MY KIDS OR TAKE ****ING PIGGLY WIGGLY BY FORCE....I"M ****ING TAKING PIGGLY >>>GODDAMN>>>> WIGGLY AT ALL COSTS.
> 
> AS Long as you are not considering Piggly Wiggly as your Bug out Location...you will never get the opportunity to shoot my decrepit ass..
> 
> SO Judge me if you want...I personally don't give a flying **** what you think of me now, later or anytime....yeah I'm an evil rotten old son of a bitch...but my kids will be alive...so I don't really care about how far up in the air you can lift your nose and still see me.


Hand's down - this is the post of the night!!!


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## Old SF Guy

Hemi45 said:


> Hand's down - this is the post of the night!!!


Its probably in poor taste for me to like your appreciation for my own post...but I do like the positive feed back...makes me feel less like the sub human, baby killing, grand ma raping piece of shit some try to make me out to be..


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## Hemi45

Old SF Guy said:


> Its probably in poor taste for me to like your appreciation for my own post...but I do like the positive feed back...makes me feel less like the sub human, baby killing, grand ma raping piece of shit some try to make me out to be..


Ha Ha ... something about Piggly Wiggly puts it over the top. Publix, Krogers, Stop & Shop, Giant Eagle, etc. just wouldn't have had the same panache 

Besides, you seem the genuine article ... no fluff or BS and I respect that.


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## Old SF Guy

Hemi45 said:


> Ha Ha ... something about Piggly Wiggly puts it over the top. Publix, Krogers, Stop & Shop, Giant Eagle, etc. just wouldn't have had the same panache
> 
> Besides, you seem the genuine article ... no fluff or BS and I respect that.


appreciated...I've gotten into to much trouble for my "Abrupt Honesty" and "directness" (is that even a word?) Thanks all the same.


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## Old SF Guy

actually this a good point in time for this thread to just die on its own.


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## 3forus

well the moral to this crap is don't take what is not yours, don't think that no one is watching you and don't bet on having a bigger gun or such crap. I say get prepared to do for yourself, the one walking around and thinking they are going to be taking, are the ones that are going to get one in the head. I'm in farm country and if ya all think we don't know what is going on or are not preparing for scum bags thinking they are superior and going to come and take our stuff, you have better get a clue. And I would suggest to be kind and thoughtful if your hungry.


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## Old SF Guy

DO us all a favor...get your last words in and I won't comment and lets let this thread go away...because we sometimes have to just agree to disagree.


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## TG

Serious train wreck… Old SF Guy, you make sense and the post you erased should not have been erased, it was clear as a bell and very hard not to agree with. 3forus, There was no need to preach the final moral, it's a no brainer. 
I had to step-in, sorry to interrupt but it was driving me crazy. 

Now, have a shot of vodka


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## machinejjh

Old SF Guy said:


> ****ing hell.....are you intentionally being obtuse?











^


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## Hemi45

TorontoGal said:


> Serious train wreck&#8230; Old SF Guy, you make sense and the post you erased should not have been erased, it was clear as a bell and very hard not to agree with. 3forus, There was no need to preach the final moral, it's a no brainer.
> I had to step-in, sorry to interrupt but it was driving me crazy.
> 
> Now, have a shot of vodka


Remember what I told you in the *nice* thread ...


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## TG

I know…  but even myself, who has no firearms, agree with Old SF Guy, it's just garden variety common sense, no need to preach morals…

P.S. I wish he didn't erase his post


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## TG

Just realized that my french press broke, meaning no coffee for me tomorrow morning… which reminds me to buy 2 or 3 french presses just in case the world ends so that I won't have to shakily walk door to door begging my neighbours for coffee and accidentally get killed


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## Old SF Guy

TorontoGal said:


> Just realized that my french press broke, meaning no coffee for me tomorrow morning&#8230; which reminds me to buy 2 or 3 french presses just in case the world ends so that I won't have to shakily walk door to door begging my neighbours for coffee and accidentally get killed


a hammer can crush coffee beans....just sayin


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## TG

I have a grinder, no problem but no… what the hell are they called in English… grrrr


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## TG

Filters, no filters… I won't use socks


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## Old SF Guy

TorontoGal said:


> Filters, no filters&#8230; I won't use socks


a paper towel works just as well. Just press slower


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## Old SF Guy

or throw some cold water on the hot water with grounds and it will settle the grounds to the bottom....old school cowboy method


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## TG

ok thanks, I was trying to avoid using paper towels because mine are not the flashy, strong-type as advertised on TV..


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## Will2

this depends on the situation

In WROL you do what you need to survive.

in a situation where they're still rule of law then you should follow the local ordinances. if there is rule of law bill will be a management and you should contact that management to determine if resources are being gathered to alleviate the emergencyas in an emergency any resources are able to be required for reducing the risk of death serious injury or property damage.

in rule of law if you're acting on your own without authorization and you're taking someone else's property or see their deceased it's someone's next of Kin's property or their property to going to lead not OK just to take stuffas that is technically theft and I can get you locked away



in wrol you it's all just diplomacy


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## Will2

Old SF Guy said:


> Will please go back to your posted thread and read some input..its important


will do it's the voice to text

google has its own version of speach events

you're not seeing everything that's atable there it's not just the cans of corn beef that you could need lunch lunchor in my words nudge nudge


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## 2Tim215

Old SF Guy said:


> WHere I come from we make multiple plans Primary, Alternate, contingency, emergency... My emergency plan includes getting resources from where ever the hell I can, with every attempt to not harm someone or take what they need to survive themselves....But ****ing Walmart and Piggly Wiggly will be on my shopping list IF I HAVE NO OTHER OPTION....WHAT ****ING PART OF NO OTHER OPTION DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND...IF ITS DEATH FOR MY KIDS OR TAKE ****ING PIGGLY WIGGLY BY FORCE....I"M ****ING TAKING PIGGLY >>>GODDAMN>>>> WIGGLY AT ALL COSTS.
> 
> AS Long as you are not considering Piggly Wiggly as your Bug out Location...you will never get the opportunity to shoot my decrepit ass..
> 
> SO Judge me if you want...I personally don't give a flying **** what you think of me now, later or anytime....yeah I'm an evil rotten old son of a bitch...but my kids will be alive...so I don't really care about how far up in the air you can lift your nose and still see me.


If I was able to send you the money for a beer I would seeing as I would never have the chance to sit down and buy you one - well said


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## pheniox17

TorontoGal said:


> Filters, no filters&#8230; I won't use socks


Stockings


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## pheniox17

Will said:


> this depends on the situation
> 
> In WROL you do what you need to survive.
> 
> in a situation where they're still rule of law then you should follow the local ordinances. if there is rule of law bill will be a management and you should contact that management to determine if resources are being gathered to alleviate the emergencyas in an emergency any resources are able to be required for reducing the risk of death serious injury or property damage.
> 
> in rule of law if you're acting on your own without authorization and you're taking someone else's property or see their deceased it's someone's next of Kin's property or their property to going to lead not OK just to take stuffas that is technically theft and I can get you locked away
> 
> in wrol you it's all just diplomacy


And here the pattern starts again, will post my summery again on page 60


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## Kauboy

Maine-Marine said:


> I have taken a deep and true look at Jesus and I am prepared to die rather then offended him... Starve, shot, beheaded, stoned, hung, etc...the form of death does not matter - It boils down to risking life in hell to add another day/week/month to this life....Its funny, if you think about it...
> 
> Would you kill somebody to live another 3 days on this earth if you were going spend eternity on hell for doing it


You still only speak for yourself.
You accept that you will lay down and die before taking from another by force. I can respect that.
However, have you informed your family of the fate you've condemned them to?

If I attempted to take something of sustenance to provide for my children, and a person was killed in the process, it was not my intention to murder them, and I will aid in recovery if possible.
My intention was to provide for my family. This was not a selfish act from my heart. I risk self sacrifice to provide for those I love.
My Lord and savior will know my heart and judge me for it.
We know not today what tomorrow will bring. You say 3 days, that could lead to a lifetime for my child who grows up to do great things because his father kept him alive.

EDIT: Sorry to revive it. He asked a question, I felt compelled. I didn't read the next 3 pages before hitting "Submit". Apologies.


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## paraquack

While I hope my preps last me into the reconstruction, I agree with OldSFGuy. I will admit that I could easily see myself raiding a Costco or whatever to get what I need if I run out of supplies. I pray that I never have to go beyond raiding an institution. The idea of having to steal from another family so that I can survive seems impossible at this point in time. Ask me again how I feel after I completely run out of supplies. Personally, I bet some armed group takes over the Costco, Sams and all the other big stores for their own benefit very early in the SHTF event.


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## Smitty901

Big reason we prepare so we are not reduced to stealing or looting to survive


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## Maine-Marine

Kauboy said:


> You still only speak for yourself.
> You accept that you will lay down and die before taking from another by force. I can respect that.
> However, have you informed your family of the fate you've condemned them to?
> 
> If I attempted to take something of sustenance to provide for my children, and a person was killed in the process, it was not my intention to murder them, and I will aid in recovery if possible.
> My intention was to provide for my family. This was not a selfish act from my heart. I risk self sacrifice to provide for those I love.
> My Lord and savior will know my heart and judge me for it.
> We know not today what tomorrow will bring. You say 3 days, that could lead to a lifetime for my child who grows up to do great things because his father kept him alive.
> 
> EDIT: Sorry to revive it. He asked a question, I felt compelled. I didn't read the next 3 pages before hitting "Submit". Apologies.


1st - Of course I only speak for myself..I am an unelected prepper but an elect Christian.

2nd Lay down and die..no..I will hunt/fish/barter/borrow/beg/plant/grow and do what MANY people have done for 6,000 years.

3rd should i sit down with my 18 month old or 5 year old and discuss killing people to steal food versus being faithful to Jesus... I think I will wait on that

4th if you are TAKING something (Stealing) and a person gets killed (murdered) then you are a thieve and a murdered...that is on you...not me...

5th - taking something from another person - does not matter if it is for you or your family.... it is a selfish act...because you are thinking of your feelings for your kids/family versus the person you are taking from

6th You are right... Jesus does know your heart and he will judge you

7th - 3 days or a life time.. if you MURDER another person over food who knows what that other person could have done..(Your reasoning not mine)

and to clarify... I have just been expressing my views about those that are willing to murder in order to feed their family... like everybody else on this forum I have opinions...I am not the least sorry that some folks do not have thicker skin...

For me..the funny part is... A few folks have a problem with having a Christian view of pointed out to them...BUT they have no problem telling you they will Murder to feed their family...

Yep..and I am the BAD GUY HERE...


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## Jeep

Your still expressing views that never belonged on this thread, what part of get hooked on phonics"it worked for me" do you not understand !


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## Old SF Guy

Maine-Marine said:


> 1st - Of course I only speak for myself..I am an unelected prepper but an elect Christian.
> 
> 2nd Lay down and die..no..I will hunt/fish/barter/borrow/beg/plant/grow and do what MANY people have done for 6,000 years.
> 
> 3rd should i sit down with my 18 month old or 5 year old and discuss killing people to steal food versus being faithful to Jesus... I think I will wait on that
> 
> 4th if you are TAKING something (Stealing) and a person gets killed (murdered) then you are a thieve and a murdered...that is on you...not me...
> 
> 5th - taking something from another person - does not matter if it is for you or your family.... it is a selfish act...because you are thinking of your feelings for your kids/family versus the person you are taking from
> 
> 6th You are right... Jesus does know your heart and he will judge you
> 
> 7th - 3 days or a life time.. if you MURDER another person over food who knows what that other person could have done..(Your reasoning not mine)
> 
> and to clarify... I have just been expressing my views about those that are willing to murder in order to feed their family... like everybody else on this forum I have opinions...I am not the least sorry that some folks do not have thicker skin...
> 
> For me..the funny part is... A few folks have a problem with having a Christian view of pointed out to them...BUT they have no problem telling you they will Murder to feed their family...
> 
> Yep..and I am the BAD GUY HERE...


Maine and all who agree with him....Your not the bad guys here with respect to where you stand. The problem here is you cant seem to separate/distisguish us saying we will loot a Piggly wiggly or an abandoned property if it means life for our kids from Us wanting to kill someone...They are separate issues This thread was about scavaging/looting and you turned it into murder and rape. .....If you want to have a debate on whether I would be willing to kill folks and take from them I am happy to have that debate, but you seem hell bent on tying scavenging and looting to baby killing and that is exactly were we have issues. Everyone knows your position...everyone knows my position. There really is no need to continue to argue it. We have had this debate 3 times so far since I have been a member and the story line doesn't change. The next time it comes up I am going to ignore it and let others lead the discussion.


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## thepeartree

pheniox17 said:


> Stockings


No, no! NOT stockings! Use multiple coffee filters. They will remove all the crud larger than fine silt. Then run it through another 4 or 5 layers of filter to get it even cleaner. Then you run it through diatomacious earth from a local pool store or whatever to polish it off. For the little they cost, you can stock 5000 filters for under $20US. AA good holder for the filters in the field is a litre bottle with the wide bottom cut off.


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## thepeartree

Old SF Guy said:


> I met a couple once...The husband said...under no circumstances would he shoot or harm another human being...I asked him if a man broke in and was raping his wife, would he grab a knife or a bat or anything and attack him and try to kill or stop him? He said no...I would call the cops..
> 
> I have never seen a woman look at her husband with such disgust in my life....
> 
> Some of you sound like him to me. Not that your not willing to kill to protect what is yours (food wise), but your unwilling to do whatever is necessary to keep your kids alive, proclaiming I prepped for it and my preps will never fail if I have prepped correctly. SOme of you bring forth the religious point and that I do respect...good on you...your a better man than I. I'm not sure if your kids would feel that way or if my kids would feel that way...The difference is my kids might be alive to feel that way a little longer..."God Dad was a evil bastard....hand me some more pork chops Tommy.... He stole from Piggly Wiggly and stealing is wrong....can I get some more Beans Mamma.....?"





Old SF Guy said:


> DO us all a favor...get your last words in and I won't comment and lets let this thread go away...because we sometimes have to just agree to disagree.


Hmmm. Well, it looks like a good time to say 'Spend some time thinking about what you are or are not willing to do in the name of survival under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES'. Doing so will add to your chances of survival to an amazing extent. Instead of trying to decide if your morals will allow you to kill that guy trying to get into your supplies, you may actually be able to lasso his ass or get the first shot off ;* )

Maybe I can keep this going if I ask: if you capture someone trying to steal what's yours by attacking you, does that mean you can make him a slave?

Before some of you jump in, recall that the bible said nothing against slavery in general, just that god didn't seem to want HIS people being slaves (Jews, not Christians). Also, maybe you can teach this guy how to grow his own food instead of stealing yours...


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## big paul

personally I will do ANYTHING to survive in a SHTF/WROL world but then I'm expecting most of my very small community (of Sheeple) to be dead with the first 90 days.


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## Notsoyoung

Well one thing is clear, no matter how long you have known someone, DON'T TRUST THEM. If it is your brother, sister, DON'T TRUST THEM. If you see anyone, SHOOT THEM. Because we have heard more then a few people post that if they run out of food they will do anything to survive, which would include killing YOU. Anyone who says something stupid like "I wouldn't want to hurt anyone, just steal their food". Yeah, like anyone would stand idly by while you steal their food, and once you do end up shooting the guy with the food, what are you going to do about his family? Let them starve or maybe coming hunting you later, or kill them now? 

I hear allot about people who have already decided the kill other people for their food, the "I'll do anything to survive" group, but I don't hear much about eating grubs, earthworms, or insects to survive. How about your wife or you prostituting yourselves for food? Going to do that before murdering other people for their food? I have said it several times already and I will say it again, IMO anyone who says NOW that they have already decided to kill other people for their supplies if the SHTF are not going to wait until they have exhausted their supplies before they start killing other people for theirs. THEY are going to be the roving murderers killing other people at the get go before the other people have a chance of using up their own supplies. 

The only obvious answer? KILL EVERYONE YOU SEE! ...... Yeah, great planning.


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## Dalarast

Is it time for me finally to stop lurking this topic.....

Form what I read throughout this post I really don't remember people saying they are going to go on raids to kill people for supplies. I read that people may remove items from a walmart or piggly wiggly..... but no raid other preppers. But thats not what my general thought is about...

For people who said they will not kill for food I just want to know.... does this apply if someone is there to steal your food? If someone raids you will you fire back in defense? Why not just give them your food to avoid killing someone else? Why have firearms or anything that could kill someone else even in the act of self-defense/protection of your own supplies. 

Stealing...looting... removing items from an abandoned store... picking a piece of fruit off a branch on private property (though abandoned)... isn't it all the same thing? If you don't have a hunting license in your state.. after the collapse would you violate the law to hunt? How far or strong are the morals of some I wonder.... I personally salute the ones who have those morals for one could call you a Buddha.


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## big paul

as far as other people are concerned especially in a post SHTF/WROL situation there is an old saying: "if you DONT know them, if you HAVENT worked with them or spent time with them, then DONT trust them"....I live by this every day.


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## Kauboy

Notsoyoung said:


> Well one thing is clear, no matter how long you have known someone, DON'T TRUST THEM. If it is your brother, sister, DON'T TRUST THEM. If you see anyone, SHOOT THEM. Because we have heard more then a few people post that if they run out of food they will do anything to survive, which would include killing YOU. Anyone who says something stupid like "I wouldn't want to hurt anyone, just steal their food". Yeah, like anyone would stand idly by while you steal their food, and once you do end up shooting the guy with the food, what are you going to do about his family? Let them starve or maybe coming hunting you later, or kill them now?
> 
> I hear allot about people who have already decided the kill other people for their food, the "I'll do anything to survive" group, but I don't hear much about eating grubs, earthworms, or insects to survive. How about your wife or you prostituting yourselves for food? Going to do that before murdering other people for their food? I have said it several times already and I will say it again, IMO anyone who says NOW that they have already decided to kill other people for their supplies if the SHTF are not going to wait until they have exhausted their supplies before they start killing other people for theirs. THEY are going to be the roving murderers killing other people at the get go before the other people have a chance of using up their own supplies.
> 
> The only obvious answer? KILL EVERYONE YOU SEE! ...... Yeah, great planning.


You were the first to suggest you would kill random people in your neighborhood who did things you didn't like, even if it didn't affect you.
Not sure what moral ground you think you're standing on.


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## big paul

Notsoyoung said:


> The only obvious answer? KILL EVERYONE YOU SEE! ...... Yeah, great planning.


what about the "bad guys" who wont think twice about doing it?


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## Arklatex

I just don't see how someone who has admitted that they would do unsavory things to feed their family if they had *no other alternative* is automatically lumped in with the mass murdering zombie crowd. I don't agree with it, and I personally see other options. Yet I don't agree with labeling them scumbag murderers either. We are all preppers here and the reason we prep is to avoid this exact situation in the first place. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do in order to keep your family, and yourself alive. What happens if your bol is overrun or burned to the ground? I'm not sure what I would do because I haven't been in that situation before. I feel confident I could survive alone for awhile until I could join a group. But when you throw in a wife, children, grandparents etc. I'm not to confident in being able to provide for a group off the land for more than a week (Assuming I was able to get the bug out gear). Would I rob someone? I hope not. But I would take a can of beans from piggly wiggly.


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## TG

This thread will never end because most participants in this specific topic are missing the point. :roll:


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## dannydefense

Dare I suggest? Most people who sit behind a keyboard and claim they will become trigger-men at a moments notice, probably won't be the threats. Anyone who suggests they have the higher moral ground and would only do what is absolutely right in any situation, hasn't had to survive a truly hard day in their life.

Scavenging isn't stealing. If it ever gets that bad, the internal mechanism will let you know when it's time to break the old chains.


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## TG

The End


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## Denton

I'm thinking this thread has run its course and is best closed.


----------

