# Open Carry



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

So, Texas is re-considering the open carry option again. I am on the fence with this. I like the idea of conceal. I just feel it gives me more options and tends to keep people from getting nervy. Plus one always has to wonder....is he carrying or not? May be best to leave him be if they don't know he has a weapon or not. On the other hand, I feel people have a right to carry, open or concealed. But, does this make LEO's more or less nervous? Do we want to go back to the old west days? It removes all doubt who is carrying but also gives the criminals a chance to mingle in as well. I have not delved into the research yet on how it's working in Arizona or really given it much thought because we didn't have open caarry here in Texas. So, was wondering what everyones thoughts where. Paricularly the law enforcement guys and guys who live in states that allow open carry.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> Do we want to go back to the old west days?


This an argument used by non gun people... it makes people think about folks meeting at noon to have a gun fight in the middle of the street.

For me... We should be able to open carry or conceal carry without permission or permit.... . If the vast majority of folks open carried it would go a long ways to make criminals think twice.

I do not care if LE folks are nervous... that should not have the ability to stop my right

most folks are not going to get into a shootout over a traffic stop.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Haven't heard of any thugs doing open carry. Most due to past arrest aren't allowed around firearms yet conceal carry. My main concern about open carry is the firearm itself could be a target for thugs.
I have a CCW but most of the time don't carry because don't go where I feel I need having one. Even when I do carry, no one knows where the firearm is at on me.

And on a side note, I have only encountered one local place that had a sign of no firearms permitted. Wonder if they make LEOs remove their firearms before entering? I chose not to do business with that business.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

I am also in favor of both Conceal and Open carry. My only reservation about Open carry is the possibility of someone coming up behind to and trying to rob you of your gun, and I am not too sure of how valid of a worry that would be. As for being like the "Old West", I often think that if somehow people in the Old West could learn of some of the things that go on in the "modern" West, they would be horrified.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I am pro open-carry as well as concealed-carry.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Keep in mind I am in favor of both as well. I have carried for years. Just looking for some perspective here. Particularly people who live in the states that allows open carry.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

An armed society is a polite society. We can walk down the street with a slung rifle as demonstrated by the open carry people out here, yet we can't have a sidearm on our hip unless it's hidden. So I am in favor of open carry here in Texas. Plus it would be nice for me personally to be able to carry a full size all year instead of just the cold months.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> This an argument used by non gun people... it makes people think about folks meeting at noon to have a gun fight in the middle of the street.
> 
> For me... We should be able to open carry or conceal carry without permission or permit.... . If the vast majority of folks open carried it would go a long ways to make criminals think twice.
> 
> ...


Some LEO's do get nervous about concealed and open carry. but if you think about it most people that carry are doing it mainly protect themselves. But I do not doubt that people who carry, either concealed or open, would stay quiet on the sidelines when SHTF. if a shooting goes down, I'm confident that a civilian will help LEO's when needed. Also, open carry will be a deterent to jihadist scum bags who wants to try something.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I CC now, and would continue to do so even if Florida over turned its prohibition of open carry.
I prefer not to attract attention, to blend in with the crowd, and also if I ever have to deploy my weapon I want the bad guy to be unprepared for it.

CWO - when we had lunch last week, there was a 357 magnum in my front pocket, plus a reload in the other pocket. Did you notice?


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

I am all for open and concealed carry.
However, my major concern(s) about open carry is ...
Can the person defend their side arm? 
Is the holster a level II or Level III?
Will I have to defend the open carrier if someone reaches for the gun?
Why is the doofus carrying a tricked-out $1800 1911 in a $120 holster in cut-off sweat pants, flip flops, etc? 
(open carry becomes a fashion statement... at wal-mart).


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

mhans827 said:


> Some LEO's do get nervous about concealed and open carry. but if you think about it most people that carry are doing it mainly protect themselves. But I do not doubt that people who carry, either concealed or open, would stay quiet on the sidelines when SHTF. if a shooting goes down, I'm confident that a civilian will help LEO's when needed. Also, open carry will be a deterent to jihadist scum bags who wants to try something.


Good article in the last American Handgunner pointing out why it may not be a good idea to get in a gunfight to protect anyone other than your own loved ones.
Such as: would your private health insurance cover it if you are wounded? If you are wounded and out of work for a while, how will you provide for your family? There were other considerations as well.
And as far as a jihadist, if he has an AK and all I have is a handgun, no way would I engage unless I was cornered and could not get away.

Sorry, I will protect my family, anyone else should be carrying too and not be dependent on others for their safety.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I CC now, and would continue to do so even if Florida over turned its prohibition of open carry.
> I prefer not to attract attention, to blend in with the crowd, and also if I ever have to deploy my weapon I want the bad guy to be unprepared for it.
> 
> CWO - when we had lunch last week, there was a 357 magnum in my front pocket, plus a reload in the other pocket. Did you notice?


Nope. 
Did you see my SR9C with the extension on the grip? 

Probably one of the safest hour Wendy's had that day.

Enjoyed the time with you, by the way, gotta do it again.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

HuntingHawk said:


> I have a CCW but most of the time don't carry because don't go where I feel I need having one.
> 
> I wonder if the 12 people in France "felt" threatened that day.
> 
> I like the idea of open carry. Puts the crooks on notice that your not going to be a easy target. With CC the crime is already started and people are put at risk before the concealed gun is used. Just to make the anti gun sheople feel better and deny what's going on. Let the unarmed be targeted that's what they want.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Open carry is legal in West Virginia, but to be honest I have almost never seen anyone exercising that right. I remember a few years back a news reporter open carried around town to gauge the response from the public, to his surprise almost no one seemed to care. 
I prefer concealed carry myself.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

As a Texan, I'm glad this topic is coming up again.

We are 1 of 6 states that currently forbids the open carry of handguns in one form or fashion.
Read that again.
That means 44 states allow open carry of handguns, yet we don't hear of these scary stories.
No wild west, no shootouts, no police tearing their hair out, no criminals stealing a gun from the holster to rob the carrier.
All fiction.

As for how I would carry, there are places I don't wish to advertise that there is a gun in the room. Just too many sheeple.
Concealed in a passive retention holster would be the ticket.
For strolling into Lowes on a Saturday for lumber, outside the waistband holster with active retention, visible to the world.
Deal with it.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

HuntingHawk said:


> Haven't heard of any thugs doing open carry. Most due to past arrest aren't allowed around firearms yet conceal carry. My main concern about open carry is the firearm itself could be a target for thugs.
> I have a CCW but most of the time don't carry because don't go where I feel I need having one. Even when I do carry, no one knows where the firearm is at on me.
> 
> And on a side note, I have only encountered one local place that had a sign of no firearms permitted. Wonder if they make LEOs remove their firearms before entering? I chose not to do business with that business.


I conceal carry everywhere, I can legally do so. 'Cause I know the one time I need it will be the one time it's sitting at home. As far as stores who post "no guns allowed" signs, I pay no attention to them, if I am carrying my concealed weapon correctly no one will know I have it, and if I have to use it, there will be a lot more important things going on than some stupid sign.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

4 out of 5 nudists would agree that open carry is preferable to concealed carry.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Texas is pushing for OC because they have a pretty restrictive CC law. Texas CC law addresses the issue of "printing" fairly heavily. In Texas printing is illegal and you are printing anytime any portion of your gun becomes visible. If you reach for the item on the top shelf at the grocery store and your shirt tail rises enough to show a peep of your pistol - you just broke the law. If you turn sideways and your shirt pulls tight revealing the silhouette of a gun's impression through your shirt, that's printing - you just broke the law.

So the Texas CC laws (and mostly the CC RESTRICTIONS) are almost baiting law abiding CC people into breaking the law. They have constructed an impossible situation for CC people and passing OC legislation essentially nullifies all of that.

In my state, Arizona, we recognize Constitutional Carry. Which is that you can conceal or open carry any time, anywhere (certain regulations always apply) with out a permit. If you choose to get a permit, you get a few additional perks like no background checks to purchase and can carry with in 1000' of a school. Since I live with in 1000' of a school, I need it to carry when I walk the dog. The permit also allows you to carry where alcohol is sold for consumption - SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT CONSUME.

I enjoy both CC and OC but I chose when and where to do both. In Phoenix, which is very modern, civil, and urban / suburban, I CC. My gun, my business. I don't want to get the moms in Target all spun up because I have a side arm. That only defeats the purpose and whittles away at 2A support. In this scenario I don't want to know about their kids dirty diapers and they don't want to know about my gun. It all works out - both are concealed.

But when travelling, out in the wilderness, or away from town, I OC. And I enjoy all of the amenities that our smaller towns have to offer. I can come in off of the trail after a hike into a town like Snow Flake, AZ or Winslow and order a meal with my OC strapped to my side. I may be one of the dozen or so patrons OC'ing in the establishment. I rolled into a bar in Payson, AZ and had an awesome burger after being remote all weekend long. Sat there and watched a football game with my side arm strapped to my hip and noticed several others doing the same. Every one got along great and there was no incidents. People were free to drink if they had no gun on them and people were free to carry if they so chose as long as they didn't drink. I never felt better about being in a bar.

Texas is a lot like this. Rules that make sense for Dallas and Houston don't necessarily fit in Midland, Odessa, White Oak, ARP, Lufkin, or Mt. Pleasant. If laws that try to be a "one size fits all" end up causing grief for many of the constituents, then maybe it is time to let the people choose how they want to carry. If you are in an environment where OC is more practical, then do it. If you are going to the Ft. Worth Symphony, then maybe bypass strapping a 454 Casull to you leg in favor of concealing a small Walther as a better option. The point of OC legislation isn't to rub our guns in the faces of people who are anti 2A or don't understand firearms. It is to allow the people to have options that help them make better decisions.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

So far I have only noticed a few people OC near Tucson, and only one CC. He turned out to be retired LEO.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

GTGallop said:


> Texas is pushing for OC because they have a pretty restrictive CC law. Texas CC law addresses the issue of "printing" fairly heavily. In Texas printing is illegal and you are printing anytime any portion of your gun becomes visible. If you reach for the item on the top shelf at the grocery store and your shirt tail rises enough to show a peep of your pistol - you just broke the law. If you turn sideways and your shirt pulls tight revealing the silhouette of a gun's impression through your shirt, that's printing - you just broke the law.
> 
> So the Texas CC laws (and mostly the CC RESTRICTIONS) are almost baiting law abiding CC people into breaking the law. They have constructed an impossible situation for CC people and passing OC legislation essentially nullifies all of that.
> 
> ...


Very well said.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

GTGallop said:


> Texas is pushing for OC because they have a pretty restrictive CC law. Texas CC law addresses the issue of "printing" fairly heavily. In Texas printing is illegal and you are printing anytime any portion of your gun becomes visible. If you reach for the item on the top shelf at the grocery store and your shirt tail rises enough to show a peep of your pistol - you just broke the law. If you turn sideways and your shirt pulls tight revealing the silhouette of a gun's impression through your shirt, that's printing - you just broke the law.
> 
> So the Texas CC laws (and mostly the CC RESTRICTIONS) are almost baiting law abiding CC people into breaking the law. They have constructed an impossible situation for CC people and passing OC legislation essentially nullifies all of that.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where you found this information, but it is not accurate.
There is no such thing as "printing" in Texas law.
The concealed carry law was even changed a year ago to protect carriers from being prosecuted for accidentally showing their firearm.
The law used to read "failure to conceal" was against the law.
Due to concerns about accidental exposure, such as your grocery store shelf example, the law was changed to read that "intentional display" is against the law.
Thus, "printing" is of zero concern, and even an accidental flip open of the shirt tails isn't enough to get you arrested.
Now, only if you draw your weapon, or pull your shirt back in order to show someone else, those are scenarios that will land you in jail.

Edit: Also, in Texas you cannot carry your firearm where alcohol is sold for on premises consumption if the place of business derives 51% or more of their income through the sale of alcohol. Liquor stores don't allow on premises consumption, so no issue. A corner bar, on the other hand, big issue.

Edit 2: With respect to carry near a school, in Texas, carrying a firearm around the campus of a school is defined by what is considered the "premises". Texas law defines the premises as the physical building. It specifically excludes parking lots, driveways, and even sidewalks. I can drop my daughter off right at the front door, and I've committed no crime. Distance rules have never made sense to me, and in your situation, would make me down right mad.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I live in Alabama; an OC state. There are times I'll open carry simply because I don't want to bother concealing just for a quick run to the store. Nobody gets nervous, and I am usually not the only one. The cops don't get nervous; why should they?

Two reasons I normally conceal carry. First is I don't want the wrong people to know I am armed. The other reason is I do not want to get stopped for gun conversations every 30 steps. Some folks feel the need to talk gun when they see you wearing it. Dang it, man; I am just here to grab some stuff for the wife from the deli!


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Some good thoughts here and I am glad I brought the issue up.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

OC and CC are just two sides of the same coin. Both should be freely exercised. Each of us simply should chose the method that works for us.


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## Wallimiyama (Oct 18, 2012)

I prefer a state that gives me the freedom to choose whether to carry openly or concealed. It should be my choice...not the state's.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks for the correction. I left Texas 4 yrs ago. Didn't realize they had leaned up on the legislation around printing. Sounds like they eliminated it altogether if you've not heard of the term.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> So, Texas is re-considering the open carry option again. I am on the fence with this. I like the idea of conceal. I just feel it gives me more options and tends to keep people from getting nervy. Plus one always has to wonder....is he carrying or not? May be best to leave him be if they don't know he has a weapon or not. On the other hand, I feel people have a right to carry, open or concealed. But, does this make LEO's more or less nervous? Do we want to go back to the old west days? It removes all doubt who is carrying but also gives the criminals a chance to mingle in as well. I have not delved into the research yet on how it's working in Arizona or really given it much thought because we didn't have open caarry here in Texas. So, was wondering what everyones thoughts where. Paricularly the law enforcement guys and guys who live in states that allow open carry.


As a fairly recently retired cop and as a civilian I dont like it from either angle. Way too much danger of granny grunt getting her gun taken away and the bad guy winding up with it along with myriad of other possible negative scenarios. Think concealed is the way to go.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Good article in the last American Handgunner pointing out why it may not be a good idea to get in a gunfight to protect anyone other than your own loved ones.
> Such as: would your private health insurance cover it if you are wounded? If you are wounded and out of work for a while, how will you provide for your family? There were other considerations as well.
> And as far as a jihadist, if he has an AK and all I have is a handgun, no way would I engage unless I was cornered and could not get away.
> 
> Sorry, I will protect my family, anyone else should be carrying too and not be dependent on others for their safety.


 I have not read that article but there maybe some truth to that. Being a LEO I was told that when I retire and carry under LEOSA (H.R.218), I am only allowed to defend myself. so if my wife was being assaulted and about to be killed, technically I cannot use my firearm to defend her. It sounds so stupid because I dont know of anyone who would just stand there and watch. It will be very hard for some of us just to stand on the sidelines regardless of what the law is. if someone requires help I know I will act on it.


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## BlackDog (Nov 23, 2013)

I support both open and concealed carry as I believe they are a right guaranteed by the Second Amendment.
However, I rarely open carry myself and I think that people who push the envelope by carrying AR15's and such aren't doing us any favors. It unnecessarily scares the sheeple and does little to change their minds.
For myself, I believe the fact that my weapon is concealed is my best defense. If I am in a bank or store and an armed criminal comes in to rob the place, who do you think they are going to shoot at first? The guy with the gun, of course.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> As a fairly recently retired cop and as a civilian I dont like it from either angle. Way too much danger of granny grunt getting her gun taken away and the bad guy winding up with it along with myriad of other possible negative scenarios. Think concealed is the way to go.


If this is a real concern, and knowing your background, do you have any experiences to share where you've seen or heard of this happening?
Such events get tossed around a lot as "what ifs", but seldom is there ever an actual event like this. (at least that the public hears about)

There will always be risks with anything. Those risks should not stand to place restrictions the constitutional rights of law abiding citizens.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

GTGallop said:


> Thanks for the correction. I left Texas 4 yrs ago. Didn't realize they had leaned up on the legislation around printing. Sounds like they eliminated it altogether if you've not heard of the term.


From what I've researched, the term "printing" was never in the Texas Penal Code with regards to firearms.
The debate about it has continued to persist regardless.
It seems to stem from other states where such things are mentioned within the law, and the discussion was poorly controlled, and allowed other state's laws to spill over to other jurisdictions.
In any case, it certainly isn't there now, and when you've had a Governor who has been very open about carrying a handgun himself, the restrictions are bound to loosen eventually.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Florida also changed the wording of the weapon statutes so that it is no longer a crime if your concealed firearm is accidentally displayed. Such as your untucked shirt blows in the wind momentarily showing your firearm.
"Printing" is not an issue here because unless someone has X ray eyes how do they know what that lump is?


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

I support the right to open carry, I just simply choose not to except when on my own property.

I am a CCW holder and I do carry, but I don't open carry... I find it makes people nervous.

I think it is a horrible idea to open carry long guns into businesses, because it scares the crap out of the sheeple. Not saying we shouldn't have the RIGHT to do it, I am just thinking it doesn't make a lot of sense.

My personal choice, I do respect and defend the right of anybody to open carry.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

OC for life no reason not too. 
Even AR15s you dont spread knowledge and acceptance by hiding.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> So, Texas is re-considering the open carry option again. I am on the fence with this. I like the idea of conceal. I just feel it gives me more options and tends to keep people from getting nervy. Plus one always has to wonder....is he carrying or not? May be best to leave him be if they don't know he has a weapon or not. On the other hand, I feel people have a right to carry, open or concealed. But, does this make LEO's more or less nervous? Do we want to go back to the old west days? It removes all doubt who is carrying but also gives the criminals a chance to mingle in as well. I have not delved into the research yet on how it's working in Arizona or really given it much thought because we didn't have open caarry here in Texas. So, was wondering what everyones thoughts where. Paricularly the law enforcement guys and guys who live in states that allow open carry.


Although i feel you should have the right to open carry, i prefer concealed carry. Open carry is something i only when going to the range or camping.

Concealed carry is discrete carry. Open carry may be a right in most places, but it does not help our cause much.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

It should not bother LEO one way or the other. It should be a right in every State . I prefer CC but do OC at times. OC is allowed in Wisconsin by constitution. However some LEO still find a reason to give you a rough time. Not because of the weapon but because of the agenda they support.


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## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

I have CCW for a long time but never open carry. I'm OK with open carry but I think it makes people nervous. 
I was at wally world a few months back and as I get out of car a guy pulls up a few spots ahead and gets out and he could barely walk
and appeared to be about 80 years old. The man slowly made his way toward the door while I slowly walked behind him admiring
the beautiful 1911 on his side. I couldn't help thinking just how easy it probably would be for a bad guy to dis-arm him quickly. My second thought was
I was out gunned with only a Kahr CM-9. Open carry is fine but I'm sure there have been times a bad guy ends up with the gun as he may see a target
like I saw that day.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

My worry is that ill get hassled on the way camping because i look like homeless people when i go (and smell homeless when i come home.) Few cops can resist the urge to roust an armed bum. 

I also prefer ccw because of a philosophy my dad taught me: thebad guy should not know you are armed until there is 3 inches of flame coming out of the muzzle.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> I have not read that article but there maybe some truth to that. Being a LEO I was told that when I retire and carry under LEOSA (H.R.218), I am only allowed to defend myself. so if my wife was being assaulted and about to be killed, technically I cannot use my firearm to defend her. It sounds so stupid because I dont know of anyone who would just stand there and watch. It will be very hard for some of us just to stand on the sidelines regardless of what the law is. if someone requires help I know I will act on it.


I've been toting the retired cop card around for about 3 years now and never heard anybody saying anything about limitations on useage. It sure isn't wrote on the card. Know there is a clause hidden somewhere in the legaleze that if the person who is carrying is intoxicated it removes all the protections..but us old retired cops dont have to ever worry about that..lol. Anyway I tracked down some info on the law and again didnt find any limitations as who can be defended and who can't..so will continue to believe that theory is incorrect. Guess they changed the law recently dropping the time served to qualify from 15 to ten years of service..and also added military police and a few others to the list. So far the only thing I have had to do is go out and shoot with the agency once a year. They been furnishing the ammo too which is real nice. @Kauboy...nope never had any issues with open carry except one crazy guy who strapped on a gun go out to mow his own grass. Made everybody pretty nervous. Know some retail places in high crime areas around here used to let their employees open carry as far back as the late 60's..but havent seen it lately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety_Act


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## Carp614 (Jan 21, 2013)

Concealed is the way to go. Discreet works better for protection, which is the reason for carrying in the first place. Open carry (for most folks) seems to me to be little more than a political statement.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I generally open carry. My reasoning is that it's better to deter a criminal than to have an armed confrontation. If someone draws on you, do you really think you can get a CC handgun clear and into action before they fire? Having a gun worn in the open makes it less likely that someone will confront you in the first place. Criminals look for easy targets.

When I am carrying (which is almost always) I am more aware of my surroundings and who gets close to me. My open carry holster features level III retention, making it pretty hard to grab my gun. (Safariland 6360)

If I'm going somewhere where open carry isn't welcome, I'll sometimes CC my little SIG, but in general just avoid such places.

I have never been bothered by police for open carrying. I have never been confronted by civilians for open carrying. I have had a few people come up and tell me "good job" for open carrying. <shrug> I guess this is a matter of where you live and the local culture.

I don't open carry long guns. I think those who do are mainly trying to make a point, as is their right. Places where it's legal to open carry an Ak, but not legal to carry a handgun probably benefit from people making points like this, IMO


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Carp614 said:


> Concealed is the way to go. Discreet works better for protection, which is the reason for carrying in the first place. Open carry (for most folks) seems to me to be little more than a political statement.


I am still trying to figure how discreet works better especially when you have a slower draw and larger tell.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

From an LEO perspective I think every law abiding, mentally sound American citizen should carry a gun. It should be their option to carry in plain view or concealed. I do not and never will carry openly off duty. I think concealed carry gives me a significant advantage over a would be assailant. Carrying a gun openly invites the first bullet in my opinion. Keeping it under wraps keeps attention off of me giving me time to react and maneuver that I otherwise would not have. A concealed firearm is also more civil. 

I don't wear Punisher T shirts, Kimber hats, Colt 3 gun competition pants or anything like that. Just modest cargo shorts or 3.11 pants with no part of my EDC visible.


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## 3percent (Dec 28, 2014)

I carry about 90 percent of the time. 99% of that time, it is CC even though Tennessee is an open carry state. I just prefer discretion. About the only time I openly carry is when I am meeting someone to either buy or sell something from craigslist or whatever. I carry a G19 and it is very apparent on my hip. Wife is normally off to my side with her GLOCK as well. So yeah, when I want it known, then it's totally open carry.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Moonshinedave said:


> I conceal carry everywhere, I can legally do so. 'Cause I know the one time I need it will be the one time it's sitting at home. As far as stores who post "no guns allowed" signs, I pay no attention to them, if I am carrying my concealed weapon correctly no one will know I have it, and if I have to use it, there will be a lot more important things going on than some stupid sign.


I feel very strongly about this. It is a business's RIGHT to ban firearms and if they do so, I will respect their RIGHT and not go there. YOU do NOT have the right to go with with a firearm even if it is concealed, and where I live, it is ILLEGAL to take a firearm into a business that has banned them. If you don't like it, DON'T GO THERE. If someone is caught ignoring the store's ban against firearms you are hurting those who do respect a business's RIGHTS.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Notsoyoung said:


> I feel very strongly about this. It is a business's RIGHT to ban firearms and if they do so, I will respect their RIGHT and not go there. YOU do NOT have the right to go with with a firearm even if it is concealed, and where I live, it is ILLEGAL to take a firearm into a business that has banned them. If you don't like it, DON'T GO THERE. If someone is caught ignoring the store's ban against firearms you are hurting those who do respect a business's RIGHTS.


Not picking a fight, just playing Devils Advocate here...

A public business exists to serve the public. You accept the good with the bad when you open your doors for commerce.
If we can reach common ground and agree that your right to self defense is granted via a higher power than the US Govt. and that the Constitution merely puts into words that which existed before it, then does a business really have the right to disarm you?

On the one hand I agree with Notsoyoung. If they choose a path that eliminates your rights in their store, your recourse is to choose a path that eliminates your money supporting them - end of story.

Ahhh... But not so fast. Can a business determine they don't want Blacks? Can a business exclude Muslims from their doors? Can a wedding cake shop arbitrarily decide not to serve a Homosexual couple? What about a mother discretely breast-feeding an infant under a swaddling blanket?

These are all people that have been excluded from businesses in recent years (maybe a little longer for Blacks), and in each case the courts have stepped in and declared it a violation of basic human rights. And these rights, while they absolutely exist, are not even spelled out in the US Constitution. Some businesses have even passed dress codes that say you can't have pants saggin' below your ass-crack, and those businesses are in court right now for having a "Racist Policy Aimed at Minorities."

So how then, can businesses be forced to allow saggy pants as a birth right, but not allow people to peacefully carry a gun - which is pretty clearly spelled out in the second amendment in black and white text?


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

GTGallop said:


> Not picking a fight, just playing Devils Advocate here...
> 
> A public business exists to serve the public. You accept the good with the bad when you open your doors for commerce.
> If we can reach common ground and agree that your right to self defense is granted via a higher power than the US Govt. and that the Constitution merely puts into words that which existed before it, then does a business really have the right to disarm you?
> ...


First and foremost, a business is in business to make a profit, not serve the public. As for the rest, IMO YES THEY CAN! In most states that have CC, when the law was passed they also included that business's have the RIGHT not to allow firearms on their premises. The arguments that private business's have had their rights violated in other areas, so it is alright to violate them in the case of firearms is bull. To me, once again the answer is very simple, if they don't want your business, DON'T GO THERE. I don't have a problem with that, although I do make a point of informing the business why I don't do business with them. Not surprisingly, there are not very many business's in my area that post that "no firearms" allowed sign on their doors. The national campaigned by the "gun grabbers" trying to force Kroger into banning firearms was a dismal failure for the liberal jerks, and is an example of how it should be done if you want a business to allow firearms on their premises, not violating their RIGHTS and while doing so, breaking the law.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

I agree with that but I don't support it.

As a business owner, I'm free to restrict guns. But I'm not free to restrict people that aren't dressed appropriately.

I think the government should either support the rights of ALL people be they of color, religion, orientation, maternity, dress code and 2A status or should do NONE of it and let the free market go where it wants. They are straddling the fence and playing favorites right now. This group's interests are protected, but the other group is not. It is inconsistent - that is my issue. Why are their rights more important than mine?

And for the record, when I dine at an establishment that restricts carry, I leave my pistol in the car.
But to be safe, I remove the magazine so if it is stolen they can't immediately do damage to people.
And then to make sure I don't forget, I leave the loaded magazine on the table while I'm eating - you know... As a visual cue for me to remember I'm not armed and I need to reload the gun when I get to the car. _It's the responsible thing to do ;-)_


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

(I just like writing it and re-reading the Second Amendment to The Constitution.)

There was a nice little sports bar that we frequented often. We would usually treat one of our son's to a meal and watch some games and I would enjoy a beer or three. Mrs Slippy or one of our son's would be carrying as is usual. I would not be since I planned on partaking in alcohol. It was our favorite place...food was good, prices were affordable, servers were nice and sports games were plentiful on multiple tv's. We would often watch hockey there, as our satelite tv package did not offer us hockey packages. We are southerners who love hockey and Son 2 played in one of the ECJHL leagues for two years after high school...So it was a fun place to go.

One day, the sports bar put up a sign banning firearms. We walked up to the door, saw the sign and turned around. Never to pass their door again.


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

In Indiana we can open or conceal carry. I personally prefer to carry concealed, just my preference tho, I have opened carried on numerous occasion without issue. Here where I live people hardly bat an eye at someone carrying. We are very open to carrying and for the most part people are used to it.


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## shootbrownelk (Jul 9, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> Some LEO's do get nervous about concealed and open carry. but if you think about it most people that carry are doing it mainly protect themselves. But I do not doubt that people who carry, either concealed or open, would stay quiet on the sidelines when SHTF. if a shooting goes down, I'm confident that a civilian will help LEO's when needed. Also, open carry will be a deterent to jihadist scum bags who wants to try something.


 It's doubtful that carrying openly would be a deterent to any Jihadist/scum/terrorist with murder on his/her mind. They'd simply walk up behind you and shoot you in the noggin. Just like the 2 nutcases did to a "Good Samaritan" with a CC permit at an Albertson's store. He walked past one thug to confront the other, and she calmly shot him from behind in the head.
Here we can carry openly or concealed without a permit. I can't remember ever seeing anyone carrying openly anywhere. I carry every day, always concealed...I want it to be a big surprise. If you carry openly, you may just as well hang a sign around your neck saying "Shoot Me First" IMO.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

shootbrownelk said:


> If you carry openly, you may just as well hang a sign around your neck saying "Shoot Me First" IMO.


This is one of the biggest lies in the debate.
Kindly provide any statistically significant evidence of this point.
I've seen it made at least 3 times in this thread, yet no evidence of its validity.
There are 44 states that allow open carry. Surely you can provide ample evidence where this is done regularly.
If not, then it is no more valid a claim than the "wild west" shootout claims that are made up every time gun laws are loosened.

Prior to Texas finally enacting a CC law under Governor Bush, the "wild west shootouts" and "bloodbaths in the streets" claims were screamed from the highest buildings from people who didn't support the measure.
Here we are, almost 20 years later, and the fears proved to be nothing but fiction.

I'll venture a guess this pseudo-concern will be as well.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Notsoyoung said:


> I feel very strongly about this. It is a business's RIGHT to ban firearms and if they do so, I will respect their RIGHT and not go there. YOU do NOT have the right to go with with a firearm even if it is concealed, and where I live, it is ILLEGAL to take a firearm into a business that has banned them. If you don't like it, DON'T GO THERE. If someone is caught ignoring the store's ban against firearms you are hurting those who do respect a business's RIGHTS.


I don't live in Illinois, I live in West Virginia, in this state if you are discovered carrying a firearm in a posted "no guns" store, you can either A: surrender your weapon while you are in the store (yeah, that is going to happen) or B: leave the store. IF you refuse to immediately leave the store THEN you are breaking the law.
I don't carry to feel like some big man, I carry because almost every day you hear or read about some nut-job deciding to shoot up a group of people for God knows what reason. Sorry, but I'm not letting a 50 cent paper sigh in a window of a store making me disarm myself.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

GTGallop said:


> I agree with that but I don't support it.
> 
> As a business owner, I'm free to restrict guns. But I'm not free to restrict people that aren't dressed appropriately.
> 
> ...


When I read your post this was the first thing that popped in my mind, this is another person who decided to leave her weapon in the car, while dinning, her cost? both parents and probably some other innocent lives, might be worth 5:23 minutes of your time to watch this:


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

I'm in Texas and want open carry. Will I personally open carry? Probably not but I want my rights and the ability to open carry when I do want to. I don't go to establishment that deny my rights nor do I ever travel to states that also deny my rights. If the state doesn't recognize my CC permit from Texas then it's a no go state.


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## Big Country1 (Feb 10, 2014)

shootbrownelk said:


> I want it to be a big surprise. If you carry openly, you may just as well hang a sign around your neck saying "Shoot Me First" IMO.


I agree 100%. I feel we should have the option to carry how we want. Open carry seems like asking\waiting for a problem to happen. My .02


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Big Country1 said:


> I agree 100%. I feel we should have the option to carry how we want. Open carry seems like asking\waiting for a problem to happen. My .02


Technically, concealed carry is "waiting" for the problem.
Just as the other poster said, he wants it to be a "surprise".

I'd prefer they see a glaring reason to AVOID committing a crime in my presence.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Technically, concealed carry is "waiting" for the problem.
> Just as the other poster said, he wants it to be a "surprise".
> 
> I'd prefer they see a glaring reason to AVOID committing a crime in my presence.


I guess a person can what if it to death. I had a person ask me once after I got my CCP, if someone comes in and pulls out a gun and shoots me before I know what is happening what use is the concealed gun? My reply, if I happen to be the first person the bad guy(s) decides to shoot, then I'll probably be dead or dying and no use to anyone, but there is a chance, I may not be the first or second one they choose to shoot, thereby at least, giving me a chance.
Now, if bad guys come in to shoot up a place, and a good'ole'boy has a 1911 proudly strapped to his side, who do you suppose will be the first person they decide to shoot? But then, they could see the gun decide to go somewhere else, who knows?


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> When I read your post this was the first thing that popped in my mind, this is another person who decided to leave her weapon in the car, while dinning, her cost? both parents and probably some other innocent lives, might be worth 5:23 minutes of your time to watch this:


Very much worth watching, thank you for sharing it.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Yes. In fact I was reading the other day that crime in general has gone way down here in the Houston area. Particularly street crimes and home invasions. ( We had one about a month ago and the homeowner shot one guy dead and they found the other at the hospital. ) I am guessing that's true everywhere in the state. It is all bogus nonsence meant to scare the uninformed. Whether open carry passes or not I still would prefer to conceal my weapon. But, give people the option. After all, it's a free country right???????LOL



Kauboy said:


> This is one of the biggest lies in the debate.
> Kindly provide any statistically significant evidence of this point.
> I've seen it made at least 3 times in this thread, yet no evidence of its validity.
> There are 44 states that allow open carry. Surely you can provide ample evidence where this is done regularly.
> ...


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> When I read your post this was the first thing that popped in my mind, this is another person who decided to leave her weapon in the car, while dinning, her cost? both parents and probably some other innocent lives, might be worth 5:23 minutes of your time to watch this:


This is awesome Moonshine! I have not seen this and I live in Texas and remember when that happened. Thanks


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

It would appear that I not only opened a can of worms....I opened a big ass can of worms! All very good and well though out arguments to be sure.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

As a LEO, it is my understanding that you have to follow the state you are in use of force laws. In Tennessee, one can use deadly force to protect a 3rd party. I not sure of any state that doesn't allow this, but then again I try to stay in states that lets me have guns.



mhans827 said:


> I have not read that article but there maybe some truth to that. Being a LEO I was told that when I retire and carry under LEOSA (H.R.218), I am only allowed to defend myself. so if my wife was being assaulted and about to be killed, technically I cannot use my firearm to defend her. It sounds so stupid because I dont know of anyone who would just stand there and watch. It will be very hard for some of us just to stand on the sidelines regardless of what the law is. if someone requires help I know I will act on it.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

Also I have no problem with open carry, I prefer concealed but that is a preference. When I see an open carry I try to make a quick read of the person to ascertain if they are carrying open for the macho-ness of carrying or someone not to be messed with. I, honestly, don't think you will see thugs open carrying too much as most are afraid that cops know them anyway.


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## rjd25 (Nov 27, 2014)

I think this is one particular area where State's rights has failed. The lack of uniformity in gun laws at the state level almost makes me wish we had federal laws so that everything was the same. All 50 states should allow both CC and OC.

As an aside, I found instructions that the CT Judicial Branch issues to jurors in deciding self defense cases. I thought it was an interesting read and will link it below.

Criminal Jury Instructions 2.8-1


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> This is awesome Moonshine! I have not seen this and I live in Texas and remember when that happened.
> 
> Thanks


Heard it previously and know some folks who got there pretty quick. It was highly sad Its better to be tried by 12 than carried by six or have your kin carried by six as it were. Signs dont mean nothing to me.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

shootbrownelk said:


> It's doubtful that carrying openly would be a deterent to any Jihadist/scum/terrorist with murder on his/her mind. They'd simply walk up behind you and shoot you in the noggin. Just like the 2 nutcases did to a "Good Samaritan" with a CC permit at an Albertson's store. He walked past one thug to confront the other, and she calmly shot him from behind in the head.
> Here we can carry openly or concealed without a permit. I can't remember ever seeing anyone carrying openly anywhere. I carry every day, always concealed...I want it to be a big surprise. If you carry openly, you may just as well hang a sign around your neck saying "Shoot Me First" IMO.


respectfully, but I have to disagree...


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## jeff70 (Jan 29, 2014)

Utah is a open carry state, With my permit I can open carry or conceal fully loaded and ready to go. without permit I can open carry Utah unloaded, ( 2 actions from firing) The no guns signs here hold no weight of law, all they can do is ask you to leave. Also I can carry on school property with my permit. I usually open carry and have never had a issue with anyone. If I know the business isn't to gun friendly I either go elsewhere or conceal my gun.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

shootbrownelk said:


> If you carry openly, you may just as well hang a sign around your neck saying "Shoot Me First" IMO.


YES! If you are standing in a bank in any bustling downtown metropolis that is what any savy bank robber would think. And YES! They probably would pop you first and then the 82 year old armed guard in the corner. You are absolutely right.

Only problem is, like 59 MILLION other Americans, I do not live (or frequently travel to) a large metropolitan area. It may be tactically stupid to carry open in D-Town Dallas, Ft. Worth, Austin, San Antonio, or Houston. But what if I live somewhere else? What if I live in an area where open carry makes more sense? What if it is winter and I don't want my CC shrouded under sweaters and coats and the like?

Why should we make laws that apply to 100% of the people if they are only good for some of the people?
Why don't we give the people a CHOICE to let them decide how best to carry?

Saying that everyone has to concealed carry is like saying everyone must wear briefs. If you like briefs, its a great law. But if you're a boxer man, then it sucks. Let people choose the smart path for them.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

midtnfamilyguy said:


> As a LEO, it is my understanding that you have to follow the state you are in use of force laws. In Tennessee, one can use deadly force to protect a 3rd party. I not sure of any state that doesn't allow this, but then again I try to stay in states that lets me have guns.


Basically any state that has a duty to retreat makes defending yourself questionable. Defending someone else becomes really untenable.


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## Suntzu (Sep 22, 2014)

Pro-open carry, although I'd still conceal 99% of the time.


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