# solar toy or balls out



## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

I have been really looking into a solar system and have been trying to decide if I should put in a whole home system or a small medium-sized system to experiment with. I will insert the text from an e mail chain in the next post and I am hoping someone here might offer questions to ask the installer and provide valuable input. I have been on solar panels talk and all the California queers tell me I am a dummy for trying solar in Michigan. Does any one here have a similar sized system in a similar sun zone. I.E. 5 for average 4.2 solar hours per day that can tell me if it is worth it.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Yes it will act like an off-grid system when the grid is down, charging the batteries from the available sun.

The Solution Rises Every Morning!


To:
Subject:*RE: Solar 


I am sitting here carefully considering the write up below.

*

If the grid is off. With the system the way you propose it below. Will the solar cells continue to charge the battery bank through a charge controller in the*Outback Radian GS8048 inverter charger

*

Your comment below,*This will give you almost a week of autonomy without any recharge from the panels. Brings the question to mind.

*

*

*


From: 




Subject: RE: Solar Info 


Hi 

With your energy saving endeavors you can decrease the size of the solar array.* Or you can keep the size, bank credits, and use the credits to offset your heating costs in the winter.* Without shading and moderate assistance in brushing off snow this system will generate approximately 7,775kWh a year.* Most people won’t brush off snow unless the grid is down.

The battery bank size you request is quite large.* It is 38.4kWh of storage.* With a 60% discharge this will give you 23kWh of usable storage.* With an average usage of 400kWh a month/ under normal conditions/ you should be able to cut that usage in half when the grid is down.* This will give you almost a week of autonomy without any recharge from the panels.*

So here is a narrative and budget – This is minus batteries.* I have listed an adder for the batteries at the bottom.* Because of the high proportion of the cost that is the batteries I figured it would be best to list them this way.

24 – SolarWorld 285w panels – 4,480w system

- Outback Radian GS8048 inverter charger (8,000w inverter w/ 12,000w surge)

- Outback Radian load center #GSLC175-PV-120/240

- Patriot solar racking set to a 35 degree angle – 90’ from the home

Total cost for turnkey system (minus batteries) - $26,875.00

Batteries

8 – 8G8DLTP – 12vdc 265Ah batteries wired together as a 48vdc – 530Ah battery bank - $6,465.00

This is at least a starting point for us to narrow down what will make sense for you.

Sincerely,



President

Michigan Solar & Wind Power Solutions



The Solution Rises Every Morning!

*


To:*
Subject:*RE: Solar Info - Residence

*

yes I would like you to quote a turn key system. I am afraid of the cost and have an idea of what I can reasonably afford. But I want to here what the outcome is. The kw of storage is a really convoluted conversation. *We just made some big changes this week end to get ready for this. We bought a new energy star refrigerator and bought a propane dryer. The refrigerator should save us 300 kw a year in usage and the dryer about 60 per month. I am hoping to get to a sustainable 400 or less kw of consumption.*

Due to the crap production I am concerned the quantity of panels we are discussing here will not be enough in December that is why I am interested in the ins and outs of a high bread system.

*

All the math shows I need 1000 ah battery bank but the cost would be so limiting.

*

I want a 800 plus ah 48 volt battery system. It will be in my basement so it will need to be gel type or if you know of any other cost similar technology


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

thank you for the response.*

*

I have a couple of additional questions.*– Most seem to regarding the process – so in addition to answering each individually,* have included a sheet called, ‘What to Expect during the Process’.* It is very convoluted, but once you see it written out you can see we have a handle on it.

1. Do you believe this type of installation would qualify for incentives through consumers. *Not the EARP program which is the current Consumers Incentive.* The reason is the energy produced goes direct onto the grid, not into the home.**Or does having the batteries in any way affect the incentive.*Yes it does because they cannot be isolated from the grid during power failure unless they are on the customer’s side of the meter. The EARP incentive locks you in to 15 years of selling your power at 24 cents a kWh to Consumers.* Then you are billed for the power you use at market rate.* During the 4 months of summer you are paying close to that now for the power used over 600kWh a month.* So at some point you will be paying more for all the power you use then they are paying you for the power you generate.

2. Have you included into this any permitting cost for ionia county.Yes, building and electrical.**If needed we can discuss methods for this over the phone.* Most building permits can be handled on line or via the mail.* Once approved we pull the electrical permit when on site.*

3. Is their any equipment required to tie into the consumers meter / replace the consumers meter. What coordination while we need in order to assist.* All the equipment will be on your side of the meter.* When we sign a contract we will also have you sign a GIA (Generator Interconnection Application, AKA Interconnection and Net Metering Application).* This is what lets Consumers know our intent.* It takes about two weeks to get the approval.* When the install is completed we let them know via a commissioning report.* Consumers will then schedule a replacement of your meter.*

4. For the ground mount rack system what are you figuring for the ground contact uprights. Penatrete wood posts. Galvanized steel???*– Galvanized steel – see pic and description for one recently completed in Battle Creek.

5. I understand that your list below is to be brief and to the point. However I am wondering if you consider this pricing complete and operating. *Are their any other equipment or wiring monitoring related items that will be an additional expense to make the system operate.*– This is complete.* We have never asked for an add once we have signed a contract, unless it is something like a customer wanting to add an additional panel.*

*

Very interested to here from you.

*


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

How much are the charging for panels... look at these guys Unlimited Solar, inc

also i found this Solar panels on a Saginaw County home a childhood dream come true for resident | MLive.com


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> How much are the charging for panels... look at these guys Unlimited Solar, inc
> 
> also i found this Solar panels on a Saginaw County home a childhood dream come true for resident | MLive.com


Fantastic news article thank you for sharing that.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

I think where you will have issues is that this is an apples to oranges question. 99% of homes running solar have no battery bank. They are reliant on grid power for their electricity and solar is merely supplemental - even if they have a system big enough to deliver 100% of a days power, they only generate it during sunlit hours and sell the excess back to the power company and that revenue balances out and compensates for what they use during night time hours.

If you are truly interested in a whole home solar 24/7 system and planning on running with all of the modern conveniences of a normal home (heater, water heater, washing machine, dishwasher, fridge, chest freezer, tvs, etc) then look to get as big a system as you can, but also look into a commercial battery back up. My office has one that will keep 450 people in cubes up and running for 30 minutes while the large diesel generator gets up and running. That is a HUGE system and costs hundreds of thousands of dollars but then it is for a 20,000 sqft commercial building. Something 1/5th that size and cost might be enough for the average 1,800 to 2,200 sqft home.

Point is... I think you will need more than the four golf cart batteries and an inverter that you see tubbed up as a solution in most BOL cabins.

Obviously you should be as efficient as possible with LED lights and dimmer switches. Maybe even some motion detectors INSIDE your house so that when you leave a room it cuts off the lamp and / or the ceiling fan. Go natural gas as much as you can for hot water and heat.

If I were you - before making that kind of investment, I'd get a small kit from Harbor Freight and set it up in your back yard. Leave it up and running for a year. See what you are producing in the winter vs summer. See how much maintenance it takes. Then you can know after $250 if it is worth it instead of spending $35,000 on a solar system and another $5000 on battery power and inverter system.


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## Dubyagee (Nov 9, 2012)

Forklift batteries. 48 to 72 volts. Easy to maintain and repair.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

A friend of mine and a friend of my wife's both put in a leased system solar panel system on their roofs. The cost for the lease is just over $60/month, about 1/2 to 2/3 the their average monthly bill. They still have to pay the electric company for the meter and grid connection ($13/month) and any electricity they get from the grid. The one in just 2 1/2 months has already put 1400+ KW back into the grid for credit against what see will use this summer. They are both in the 8.5 KW range. Obviously, when the temperature get up there this summer and the bill get to $160 they'll have to buy more electricity but still, they are saving money. What intrigues me the most is the idea if the SHTF, I'd have a big a$$ solar system, just add batteries. The only problem is that the inverter used has a safety to shut the inverter down if the grid goes down so it doesn't pump electricity into the grid and fry some poor guy working on the main line. I have to figure out how to defeat it in a grid down scenario. The sales tech comes out on March 11. The idea of having my own big a$$ system kind of has me pumped. I hope what the sales tech has to say is as good as it seems so far. According to my records, on my lowest consumption day, I use around 8.7 KW. So that means I could pumping about 64+ KW into the grid for credit. They only pay you once a year for your credit if you don't use the credit. IF I am correct from reading the BS from the lease company. One other problem is the roof, will the installation affect longevity????

I agree, from my 25 years of experience, forklift batteries would be the way to go, if you got a forklift to pick them up.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Since the battery bank is such a limiting and expensive choice a lot of people downsize the battery bank and using your already installed propane tank hook up a propane powered backup generator.

From what I'm hearing in your previous posts I'd instead go with a 300-400 amp/hr 48v battery bank with an electric start 4000 watt propane generator. Many inverters like the Radian can automatically start your generator when needed. From what I've read the Radian is a top of the line piece of equipment but the price is too rich for my blood.

8 Crown 6v batteries 
Crown 6crp5525 RE 6 volt 390Ah 8 @ $308.21 $2,465.68 

In a SHTF situation after running out of propane your electrical production will be limited to your panels but still a lot more power than most people have.
With your location snow covering the panels will be a problem so mount them where you can attempt to wipe the snow off, I'd suggest ground mounting.

Bottom line.... Look at your wallet and balance it against your long term goals. How much electrical security are you willing to pay for? You already know my level of comfort ($1500 spent for current system and strongly considering paying for a $5000 system expansion). Your wallet and goals will be different from mine.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Solar leasing companies all seem to be in the sunny SouthWest and FL.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

paraquack said:


> A friend of mine and a friend of my wife's both put in a leased system solar panel system on their roofs. The cost for the lease is just over $60/month, about 1/2 to 2/3 the their average monthly bill. They still have to pay the electric company for the meter and grid connection ($13/month) and any electricity they get from the grid. The one in just 2 1/2 months has already put 1400+ KW back into the grid for credit against what see will use this summer. They are both in the 8.5 KW range. Obviously, when the temperature get up there this summer and the bill get to $160 they'll have to buy more electricity but still, they are saving money. What intrigues me the most is the idea if the SHTF, I'd have a big a$$ solar system, just add batteries. The only problem is that the inverter used has a safety to shut the inverter down if the grid goes down so it doesn't pump electricity into the grid and fry some poor guy working on the main line. I have to figure out how to defeat it in a grid down scenario. The sales tech comes out on March 11. The idea of having my own big a$$ system kind of has me pumped. I hope what the sales tech has to say is as good as it seems so far. According to my records, on my lowest consumption day, I use around 8.7 KW. So that means I could pumping about 64+ KW into the grid for credit. They only pay you once a year for your credit if you don't use the credit. IF I am correct from reading the BS from the lease company. One other problem is the roof, will the installation affect longevity????
> 
> I agree, from my 25 years of experience, forklift batteries would be the way to go, if you got a forklift to pick them up.


The inverters these systems use won't work when the grid is off so you can't simply add batteries. They're pretty much tamper proof. The best you can do is unhook the panels from the inverter, wire in a controller, and a different inverter.

Still, At least you'd have the panels in place which is half the cost.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

My knowledge of solar is limited. What has held me back is the cost and durability of batteries. If like the Chevy Volt, limited utility at great expense. Have you considered a wind mill as a supplement and back up?


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Unless you live in at least a wind zone 2 a wind turbine will produce very little power and you really want a zone 3 or higher. This is because energy is a function of the wind velocity cubed. 
Rule of thumb for wind turbine tower.... must be at least 30' above anything within 600 feet,,,, so tall tower which can be expensive. Often the tower costs more than the turbine. If the tower is too low the wind turbulence is greater increasing turbine maintance requirements increasing long term costs and reducing output.

Wind power is great if you've got a good location and the correct tower, something most of us don't have.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

As I have mentioned before - we do work with the gas and oil folks here in PA and most of the well sites are off grid. We install a ton of panels and battery systems

this winter we had calls from many of them that had put in 7 Amp hour batteries and after a few days of snow and no sun--all the batteries were dying

we replaced a lot of 45 watt panels with 90-140 watt and bunch of 7 AH batteries for 110 AH batteries

we do very little with gel -because of the cost... less expensive to vent a flooded

If I had the dough I would do solar here for the whole house.. but as it stands now I have it in my wood shed and use it to charge the kids electric riding toys

If I really had the bucks . i would run dual electric plugs and separate wiring


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

FoolAmI said:


> The inverters these systems use won't work when the grid is off so you can't simply add batteries. They're pretty much tamper proof. The best you can do is unhook the panels from the inverter, wire in a controller, and a different inverter.
> 
> Still, At least you'd have the panels in place which is half the cost.


You are correct. From the info I can glean, they need to "think" they are still connected to the grid. They need to see electricity on the output side of the inverter from the grid to "turn on". Another battery and inverter "might" be able to fool the big inverter to turn on and power the house and charge batteries via a regular charger. Or re-wire the panels to a 48VDC battery system and inverter.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

If you read the original interactions you will see this is a high bread system that will feed power to the grid and run off battery power as well.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

alterego said:


> If you read the original interactions you will see this is a high bread system that will feed power to the grid and run off battery power as well.


But if you're installing batteries it means you are also concerned about the grid going down. Reducing the battery cost with an inverter feeding generator backup is a path some people use.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

Going back to your original question,,,,,,, I think anyone that is concerning a full size solar system
should educate themselves with a little solar experience even if it is just a small low cost system. 

Just a little experience will give you some insight that only experience cam provide.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

paraquack said:


> A friend of mine and a friend of my wife's both put in a leased system solar panel system on their roofs. The cost for the lease is just over $60/month, about 1/2 to 2/3 the their average monthly bill. They still have to pay the electric company for the meter and grid connection ($13/month) and any electricity they get from the grid. The one in just 2 1/2 months has already put 1400+ KW back into the grid for credit against what see will use this summer. They are both in the 8.5 KW range. Obviously, when the temperature get up there this summer and the bill get to $160 they'll have to buy more electricity but still, they are saving money. What intrigues me the most is the idea if the SHTF, I'd have a big a$$ solar system, just add batteries. The only problem is that the inverter used has a safety to shut the inverter down if the grid goes down so it doesn't pump electricity into the grid and fry some poor guy working on the main line. I have to figure out how to defeat it in a grid down scenario. The sales tech comes out on March 11. The idea of having my own big a$$ system kind of has me pumped. I hope what the sales tech has to say is as good as it seems so far. According to my records, on my lowest consumption day, I use around 8.7 KW. So that means I could pumping about 64+ KW into the grid for credit. They only pay you once a year for your credit if you don't use the credit. IF I am correct from reading the BS from the lease company. One other problem is the roof, will the installation affect longevity????
> 
> I agree, from my 25 years of experience, forklift batteries would be the way to go, if you got a forklift to pick them up.


I've looked into it and for us a financing arrangement would be better, but Phoenix has some clearance and easement rules that make it cost prohibitive to do on THIS house. Good news is we are close to listing it on the market and moving a little further north. Hoping to be in Cave Creek proper but at the very least, will be in that area.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

GTGallop said:


> I've looked into it and for us a financing arrangement would be better, but Phoenix has some clearance and easement rules that make it cost prohibitive to do on THIS house. Good news is we are close to listing it on the market and moving a little further north. Hoping to be in Cave Creek proper but at the very least, will be in that area.


When I started looking for another home a few years ago either a good hydro location or good solar location was one of my requirements. A good hydro location is the best choice but hard to find.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Well we picked up a kenmore high efficiency energy star refrigerator. And a new washer and dryer. The dryer is a propane dryer and we sold the other almost six year old set on Craigslist. 

It will sure be interesting to see how much our electric bill shows a drop in usage month to month. By my calculations I am expecting a 100 kw drop on average but the proof will be on the meter.

The high efficiency refrigerator is half the usage of the one we had. It was 15 years old.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Reducing power consumption is almost always cheaper than increasing power production.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

My whole intent for changing all the bulbs and some appliances is to get our monthly usage down. Not to make the solar system less expensive. Because I intend to try to oversize it any way to meet up to the 640 that we were averaging before. But to make it more feasable to be completely off grid.
I am very concerned that the mid December blues will set in and make our way off life consist of little house on the Prairie style. That would be fine under shtf circumstances but I don't want to just because.

I am seriously looking into a very large diaphragm water tank to replace the 40 gallon one I have now. The 40 Will let you run 17 gallons after the switch trips the pump off before she comes back on. I read that the less cycling of the pump will help with battery draw.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

FoolAmI said:


> Reducing power consumption is almost always cheaper than increasing power production.


I have mixed emotions about switching to a propane dryer. It is kinda robbing petter to pay paul.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Feeling like an energy nazi. 
I am waiting on our April consumers electric bill to show our kwh of use in comparison to our March bill.

We made the major appliance changes on March 8th.

Our March bill from 2014 was 1052 kwh consumption. 
Our March bill for 2015 was 506 kwh consumption. 

My wife was using the dryer like crazy trying to get all laundry in the entire house done because she was worried we would be with out for an extended period while I switched over to propane lines etc. It only took three days.

So this month should be a good representative month of running with the light to led and refrigerator and dryer change over. I have not made any other life altering changes in the house to represent a modern household. Not shtf operations energy use.

All in an effort to determine sizing of a necessary solar array and battery bank sizing.

Before changes I was looking at 640 kwh average use.

With changes I have yet to determine. 

I will have to decide if I will oversize the system to meet historical use. The quotes I had were 26400 grid tied and 34000 grid tied with battery high bred. 

I really would like to completely disconnect from the grid.

consumption will determine that cost.

any way, I was setting hear listening to my daughters little fish tank bubbler running. I was passing judgment that it was unnecessary electric consumption while I have my 65 inch sharp aquas running while i dink around on the Internet with my coffee maker percolating. 

Nazi.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Good stuff, alterego. 

I suggest you start off with an Off Grid System for your water heater and a couple of electrical outlets only. Learn from that for a couple of months. Good luck and thanks for the info. I've been looking at installing a large system but the last quote I got for equipment and install was $27k! And it still won't run my whole house and outbuildings.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Slippy said:


> Good stuff, alterego.
> 
> I suggest you start off with an Off Grid System for your water heater and a couple of electrical outlets only. Learn from that for a couple of months. Good luck and thanks for the info. I've been looking at installing a large system but the last quote I got for equipment and install was $27k! And it still won't run my whole house and outbuildings.


How many kwh are you trying to run with your 27k system?


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