# Firearm malfunction: barrel obstruction, squib, blow up, hang fire and etc.



## Folklore (Apr 6, 2021)

It is strange to find out how some guys buy rifles to spend the mud test. It seems to me a strange shooting of dirty weapons (even if it is AK) without much need. American shooters should have good statistics on cases of failures due to a large rifle experience. With interest would know more on this topic.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

There are two reasons to torture test a particular gun.
1. Durability (how long will the gun function under extreme conditions)
2. Bravado (look at what I spent my money on, it's better than yours)

I can understand why a company would promote testing for the purpose of satisfying #1. (and let's be honest, #2 as well)
But like you, I've never understood why private citizens do the same testing to their guns.
A company wants to market to a wide audience and show off their firearm's capabilities, so they showcase all kinds of scenarios.
The random gun owner will never be in 99% of those situations, but some of them still torture their guns to see if they would hold up anyways.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

I let the others spend their money destroying perfectly good toys. I then take that information and buy my own, but never subject mine to such torture.


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## Folklore (Apr 6, 2021)

It seems to me that failed tests of guns by civilians can become anti-advertising and this can be used by haters of weapons.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

I don't care what you gun you test, get mud in the barrel and it is done, ruined.
In some cases you may eat the shards coming off of it.
I let others test them, I know enough about mine to not have to test them.
Example; M1 Garand, 6 million built, I have 10 like new, one is new never been fired, 
not just the finish on them, but new or like new parts in all of them, and they work.
I have guns that I shoot and ones that are ready for a conflict, they do not get crossed over at all.
I have seen idiots burn out full auto AK's on the tube, for what to get their rocks off???
That crap proves nothing but how idiotic the poster is.


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## Folklore (Apr 6, 2021)

SOCOM42 said:


> That crap proves nothing but how idiotic the poster is.


I didn't try to prove anything


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Folklore said:


> I didn't try to prove anything


Sorry, I did not mean you but the idiots that destroy those guns for kicks.
I was referring to the vid posters on the tube.


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## Folklore (Apr 6, 2021)

No problems


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## Nick (Nov 21, 2020)

Yup let someone do the dirty work. I understand the reasoning behind it. Just an example, if you were going to buy a new AR and found 2 that were pretty much identical for the same price, but one held up for 100,000 rounds before having a failure and the other held for 75,000 rounds, which one would you buy?

Even though most guns will never have to be relied on under the conditions they are tested to it's still nice knowing what they're capable of.


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## Folklore (Apr 6, 2021)

Nick said:


> Just an example, if you were going to buy a new AR and found 2 that were pretty much identical for the same price, but one held up for 100,000 rounds before having a failure and the other held for 75,000 rounds, which one would you buy?


Perhaps both. If I am not mistaken, the resource of the AK's barrel is 10,000.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I didn't see many barrel obstruction incidents in the videos.
The AK one was bad ammo.
The ones involving revolvers were likely a cylinder timing issue.
I think the one out in the green, heavily-tree'd area, that looked like a teen with a hat on was the only barrel blowout I saw.
A lot of others were bad ammo.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Folklore said:


> Perhaps both. If I am not mistaken, the resource of the AK's barrel is 10,000.


I would assume an AR barrel is about the same.


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## Nick (Nov 21, 2020)

Folklore said:


> Perhaps both. If I am not mistaken, the resource of the AK's barrel is 10,000.


Yeah, I was just using it as an example, not an actual estimate. If I could by an AR/AK that would go 75,000/100,000 rounds before a single malfunction I would buy them both too.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I know bench rest shooters that log every shot they take, and change barrels after as little as 200 rounds.

Cast lead bullets do not wear rifling as fast as copper jacketed, and COMBLOC steel jacketed projectiles are the worst.
Yet, people shoot Tula, Wolf, and other such stell jacket ammo in their AR's. I can't understand the mentality.


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## Folklore (Apr 6, 2021)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Cast lead bullets do not wear rifling as fast as copper jacketed, and COMBLOC steel jacketed projectiles are the worst.
> Yet, people shoot Tula, Wolf, and other such stell jacket ammo in their AR's. I can't understand the mentality.


Maybe they bought barrels and COMBLOC's ammo somewhere on the sale?


rice paddy daddy said:


> I know bench rest shooters that log every shot they take, and change barrels after as little as 200 rounds.


Are they or others use COMBLOC steel jacketed projectiles?


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

All the military COMBLOCK ammo is plated steel.
Most of the wolf and brown bear is too, with lacquered cases.
It will say on the boxes the comp of the cases and bullets.
I too cannot for the life of me understand why there are those who shoot steel through an AR.
Yes, AK's and SKS's are "made for it", reason being the statistics.
The rifle and the shooter will not survive long enough to expend the ammo or wear out the tube.
Russia lost about 10.7 million military members in WW2 99.999% never wore out their weapons.
In the battle for Stalingrad the Germans used more captured weapons than their own, mostly PPSH-41's, the original "owner" sure as hell was not alive, that rottenkreig battle was no quarter asked or given, until the end days of it, then most of the prisoners died later in the gulags.
Stalin had a plan, shove as many infantry against a German position until the Germans ran out of ammo and then overrun it. Political prisoners were sent in first.
Today that episode has never left their minds, nor did the shortages they had of guns and ammo.
Tons of 7.62X54R was made in New Haven for them and sent to Murmansk by convoy.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

If you shoot a lot and don’t reload you could save a good bit of money shooting steel case.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Nothing wrong with shooting the cheap stuff as long as you know what to expect.
If you shoot steel cased ammo, just know that you'll want to clean the chamber more often, and not swap back and forth between steel and brass when you go shooting. You can get extraction issues with the brass after running through a good bit of steel first, due to carbon build-up.

Can someone post a picture of what is being called "steel plated" or "steel jacketed" projectiles?
I'm only finding steel jacket bullets that have a copper plating over them.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

I have steel cased ammo, is that what you’re wanting a pic of ? 

never heard of a steel jacket or steel coated projectile other than steel core, I have some of that.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Ranger710Tango said:


> never heard of a steel projectile other than steel core


Same here, but RPD mentioned it and SOCOM seemed to know about it too.
Both mentioned how it could wear out an AR faster, which I know steel cases won't do.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Kauboy said:


> Same here, but RPD mentioned it and SOCOM seemed to know about it too.
> Both mentioned how it could wear out an AR faster, which I know steel cases won't do.


Yah, not sure what’s up with that. Nevertheless just throw a new barrel on or throw the whole thing away. Steel case ammo was way cheaper, maybe not any longer, I have no idea. 

I haven’t bought any in a minute.

I just priced some generic steel case 223 at .60 a rnd. I was buying brass cased at one time for .30 a round. Wasn’t too long ago......within a decade.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Tula ammo has what is called bimetal bullets.
There is a copper coating that is approximately .005 inch thick over a steel jacket that is about 1/32 of an inch thick.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Tula ammo has what is called bimetal bullets.
> There is a copper coating that is approximately .005 inch thick over a steel jacket that is about 1/32 of an inch thick.


Ah, so we are talking about the same thing.
And there's evidence showing that the copper plating isn't sufficient to make it out of the barrel without exposing the steel jacket?
I'm just trying to understand why it would wear out a barrel faster.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Same here, but RPD mentioned it and SOCOM seemed to know about it too.
> Both mentioned how it could wear out an AR faster, which I know steel cases won't do.


It is not so much the steel cases that are the problem, East block cases are lacquered Steel, the coating acts as a lube for the chamber both wear and extraction wise.
It is the bullet that is the problem, they are copper plated soft steel, some with a lead core and then the now banned here by ATF a lead core with a steel slug suspended within the ln the hollow lead core.
It is the steel jacket that is unforgiving on the rifling lands, the copper plating is use to give a dissimilar metal condition to prevent galling.
I have about 30K of the banned ammo in 7.62X39 for my east block guns.
Every east block round I have ever seen that has a steel core has a plated steel jacket, right up to the 12.7MM.
Unless those boxes of east block ammunition say copper jacket they are steel. Use a magnet on them.
Another way to tell If you you are one of those who think they know it all, take some emery cloth and scrub the bullet surface down to base metal and use some instant bluing on it,
if it turns any color it is steel.
I have 4 or 5 cases of east block 5.56 NATO, it is marked Alamo only.
Only shot the crap out of the departments M4, was all we could get right after 9-11 happened.
It worked well, dirty as hell, and corrosive.


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## Nick (Nov 21, 2020)

Ranger710Tango said:


> Yah, not sure what’s up with that. Nevertheless just throw a new barrel on or throw the whole thing away. Steel case ammo was way cheaper, maybe not any longer, I have no idea.
> 
> I haven’t bought any in a minute.
> 
> I just priced some generic steel case 223 at .60 a rnd. I was buying brass cased at one time for .30 a round. Wasn’t too long ago......within a decade.



I was buying brass cased for .25/round a little over a year ago. The last purchase I made before the shortages was 5,000 rounds of 62 grain green tip for $1,250 after $250 in rebates.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

SOCOM42 said:


> It is not so much the steel cases that are the problem, East block cases are lacquered
> Steel, the coating acts as a lube for the chamber both wear and extraction wise.
> It is the bullet that is the problem, they are copper plated soft steel, some with a lead core and now
> banned here by ATF a lead core with a steel slug suspended within the ln the hollow lead core.
> ...


My thick head isn't getting it.
If the steel is coated in copper, how does it affect the barrel more than a normal copper-jacketed round?
Serious question, as this is new info to me.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Nick said:


> I was buying brass cased for .25/round a little over a year ago. The last purchase I made before the shortages was 5,000 rounds of 62 grain green tip for $1,250 after $250 in rebates.


Sounds great, I’m probably going to sell some of mine if It goes much higher.


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## Nick (Nov 21, 2020)

Ranger710Tango said:


> Sounds great, I’m probably going to sell some of mine if It goes much higher.



Really? Being a millionaire I would assume you'd rather have the ammo. I could make a lot of money selling off some of my ammo right now that I'll probably never need. But I don't really need the $ that bad and would rather have the ammo.

If you think it's valuable now imagine what it will be worth in an actual long term SHTF scenario.


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

Nick said:


> Really? Being a millionaire I would assume you'd rather have the ammo. I could make a lot of money selling off some of my ammo right now that I'll probably never need. But I don't really need the $ that bad and would rather have the ammo.
> 
> If you think it's valuable now imagine what it will be worth in an actual long term SHTF scenario.


I don’t need the ammo or the money. But I can spend the money, so it’s a no brainer for me. 👍

I’ll use that money to buy something I do need. Some of what I have was bought to be sold. Thats just smart business.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> My thick head isn't getting it.
> If the steel is coated in copper, how does it affect the barrel more than a normal copper-jacketed round?
> Serious question, as this is new info to me.


As I said the copper plating it to prevent galling of similar metals, in this case steel against steel.
The base metal, steel, is not as soft as a brass projectile( I don't know the Brinell number).
That unforgiveness causes the lands sharp corners to round over, and those same corners strip the jacket material away a little at a time, until the whole land is worn down by the two actions.
There is after a few hundred rounds deforming of the land corners a few thousands of an inch to start.
There are SKS's that I have seen with the lands worn that look like Obermeyer radius rifling.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

SOCOM42 said:


> As I said the copper plating it to prevent galling of similar metals, in this case steel against steel.
> The base metal, steel, is not as soft as a brass projectile( I don't know the Brinell number).
> That unforgiveness causes the lands sharp corners to round over, and those same corners strip the jacket material away a little at a time, until the whole land is worn down by the two actions.
> There is after a few hundred rounds deforming of the land corners a few thousands of an inch to start.
> There are SKS's that I have seen with the lands worn that look like Obermeyer radius rifling.


Ok, so the plating is not sufficient to provide protection while traveling through the barrel? Not thick enough?
I think I'm following.
I just always thought a copper coat was enough. This is good to know!


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Those rounds will wreak havoc in a stainless steel barrel.
There are two primary forces working in that chamber and rifling, thermal and mechanical.
The heat generated by the powder oxidizes anything it comes into contact with and the bullet is the mechanical, like putting a square peg in a round hole, it forces itself into the rifling deforming itself in the process and wearing each other a bit, but for the bullet it is a one time affair.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Ok, so the plating is not sufficient to provide protection while traveling through the barrel? Not thick enough?
> I think I'm following.
> I just always thought a copper coat was enough. This is good to know!


It is also the hardness of the steel that resist the deforming, unlike copper, that is the primary culprit.
Even if the plating was thicker it would have the same results due to the steel's hardness.


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## Folklore (Apr 6, 2021)

SOCOM42 said:


> Those rounds will wreak havoc in a stainless steel barrel.


Reminds Intergranular corrosion (IGC) when sharpening a stainless steel cutting tool on a sharpening stone after sharpening carbon steel tools on it.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

The closest I've come to seeing a barrel obstruction was a friend's shotgun at a skeet shoot. When he fired, you could see the "cloud" of shot come from the firearm, go out about 10-12 feet and drop like a rock. He pumped in another round and was about to fire when the manacting as range safety, yelled for him to stop! Turned out the wad was still in the barrel.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> My thick head isn't getting it.
> If the steel is coated in copper, how does it affect the barrel more than a normal copper-jacketed round?
> Serious question, as this is new info to me.


I have a serious question to ask of you, I have spent some time answering your questions in depth.
Not once for those answers did I receive a "like" from you on them.
The only time I remember getting one from you was for my posting to, you was on you generator question.
General posting, I do not expect any from you never have, but you surprised me in this thread with one.
It takes me a long time to type out stuff for two reasons, hunt and peck and and arthritis.
It appears over the years that you, to me, have expressed nothing animus in my direction, not just from the lack of likes either.
I do believe that a few years back, I asked you a question or two and you never responded to them.
Is there some particular reason for any of this????


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## Ranger710Tango (Feb 27, 2021)

I’ve been reading a little about the bimetallic projectiles. One test concluded the bimetallic rounds decrease accuracy considerably after about 5-6k rounds. And then there’s the stuck case issues of steel case and possible short stroking as they claim the ammo is underpowered.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

SOCOM42 said:


> I have a serious question to ask of you, I have spent some time answering your questions in depth.
> Not once for those answers did I receive a "like" from you on them.
> The only time I remember getting one from you was for my posting to, you was on you generator question.
> General posting, I do not expect any from you never have, but you surprised me in this thread with one.
> ...


No sir, no particular reason.
I consider most of your comments insightful and well stated, though I'll admit, I don't always fully understand them.
My apologies if I've conversed with you and failed to hit the "Like" button on a particularly helpful post.
I'm not terribly consistent with it. Sometimes I "Like" and "Reply", sometimes I just "Reply", especially if I'm still getting more information, and sometimes I just do a drive-by "Like".
More and more, I find myself using the "Like" as a passive interaction(such as to support another member's perspective in a discussion), but the "Reply" if I'm more engaged in the conversation. Doing both feels redundant. But that's just me.
As to the questions I failed to answer, I don't recall that interaction, but would be happy to respond if it was still a topic of inquiry.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

You may be amazed at how seemingly fast a rifle barrel begins to "wear out".
For some calibers it can be as little as 10,000 rounds. The .223 Remington is one that begins to kill barrels at the 10,000 round mark.
reference found here: You are being redirected...


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> You may be amazed at how seemingly fast a rifle barrel begins to "wear out".
> For some calibers it can be as little as 10,000 rounds. The .223 Remington is one that begins to kill barrels at the 10,000 round mark.
> reference found here: You are being redirected...


Match grade barrels go at around 5,000 rounds.
Same with sniper rifles, less than that with 300 Winmag and 338L.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> Match grade barrels go at around 5,000 rounds.
> Same with sniper rifles, less than that with 300 Winmag and 338L.


i forget what the proper term is for cartridges that have a very high case capacity compared to neck diameter, but that seems to cause very fast chamber and leade erosion.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> i forget what the proper term is for cartridges that have a very high case capacity compared to neck diameter, but that seems to cause very fast chamber and lead erosion.


The only terms I know is short shouldered or high neck ratio.
Yes a bottleneck round creates a lot of "wash" in the lead and throat.
I had a 220 Swift I use to hunt groundhogs with, barrel went from new to washout in 1,500 rounds.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I would assume an AR barrel is about the same.


It depends on the quality of AR barrel that you have. An inexpensive barrel will get you about 5,000 rounds before losing accuracy. Mid-range will get you 10,000+. Top shelf barrels can get you 20,000 plus.
I am talking .223/5.56. Some rounds like the 6.5 creedmore will likely be shot out in 5,000 rounds.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Kauboy said:


> Ah, so we are talking about the same thing.
> And there's evidence showing that the copper plating isn't sufficient to make it out of the barrel without exposing the steel jacket?
> I'm just trying to understand why it would wear out a barrel faster.


I read a study that a gun did about 6 months ago. He had 3 identical AR's. His plan was to shoot 10,000 rounds through all three using different brands of ammo to get a sense of reliability, accuracy and barrel wear. He shot Tula steel cased ammo through one, Wolf steel cased through another and brass cased M193 through the third AR.
After a couple thousand rounds, the AR shooting Tula started having increasing failures to feed and failures to fire. It got so bad that he end up stopping around 5,000 rounds. The barrel was shot out at that point.
The AR shooting wolf did a bit better. It got to a bit over 7,000 rounds before failures were getting significant, accuracy went to shit and the barrel was shot out.
The AR shooting M193 got through all 10,000 rounds with only a handful of failures. It will still shooting accurately at 10,000 and the barrel was still serviceable.
The moral of the story is that steel cased and bimetal russian ammo eats up barrels much quicker than a decent to good quality brass cased ammo.


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## Folklore (Apr 6, 2021)

If we talk only about mechanical causes of wear, then it would be good to look at the ratio of the maximum pressure of gases acting on the bottom of the bullet to the area of the contact spot between the bullet and the bottom surface of the rifling of the barrel.
Comparative table of maximum gas pressure for different calibers
It is more difficult to accurately determine the area of the contact spot. The forensic ballistics manuals provide such information. But this can be discussed for a long time.


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