# real life experience, and learning from those who have it.



## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

I was browsing youtube and came across this video.






Several points were driven home for me.

1. Unless you have been there, you don't know.
I encounter a lot of people who have all sorts of great theoretical knowledge. They talk about how they would handle this or that experience. These are usually the "oh I'd just shoot him in the face" people. It would be amusing if it wasn't horrifying when these people finally do encounter these situations and freeze up, empty a magazine into everything but the target, or attempt some kung-fu movie move and end up in the hospital.

2. The closest thing you can get to experience, is vicarious experience and practice. Talk to people who have actually lived what you are training for. They actually know what it's like, and can give the most useful insights. Some dude who read a field manual, survival book, watched a few videos, or "knows a guy who's sisters cousin said" is not a good source of information, and is NOT an expert. Talk to veterans, military, cops, first responders, homesteaders, etc. Get real experience to help bridge the gap between yourself, and the real event you haven't lived through.

3. Practice. Never assume you remember, or will remember anything. Nothing is "like riding a bike," including riding a bike. I have scars to prove it. Constantly practicing every technique, drill, and theory, with the actual conditions you will face is vital. Don't only practice shooting without your plate carrier if you intend to wear one. Put that thing on and train. Do everything you can with the equipment and clothing you intend to have. Don't put on special range or practice or exercise clothing. keep your old clothes and use then for practice. You can be a marathon runner all day long in your tank top, ranger panties, and go fasts (running shoes), but have you ever done it in your business suit? How about your daily jeans and a t shirt? Running is a lot harder in jeans or a suit, and especially in dress shoes, heals, or that pair of combat boots you might have stored for SHTF that you haven't broken in. Running is just one example. 
In the Army we say "train as you fight" (probably the rest of the military too, just never heard a marine say it, and the navy and air force don't fight) *JOKING*

4. There is a great point about magazine capacity. The more bullets you have the better, just in case. I've mentioned that I also carry a M&P Shield, but I carry 2-3 magazines with it. Yes, 90 times out of 100, you drop the first 2 the rest run, but what if, and this is a real what if, you drop the first 2 but the 4th or 5th has now had time to draw his weapon?
Personally had I the desire to do something illegal like this I would do it alone, but because of the way I analyze things like this (military and LEO teach to think "how would I do it if it was me" and to plan defense thusly. I happen to be good at this exercise) The problem is that average joe gang banger is a coward. He will get all his buddies all hopped up on mountain dew to come "jack some foo" with him. 
I watch a lot of videos, and in the movies who pulls off a heist? Always a team. In security footage who pulls of a heist? Usually no less than 2, although, 1 is quite common.

Food for thought.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Experience is always a great teacher. So is practice. One of the problems with a lot of young people is that they tend to think they know it and do not realize how wrong they are. 

Back in the 90's when high capacity magazines were banned I took a pistol course. They jacked up the metal popper so it would run my mag dry and then start popping up other targets rapidly just to see what i would do. Of course they did not tell me and were ready for a laugh at my expense/use me as an example for instruction. What they didn't know was that my glock 17 had a high capacity mag. Took 12 hits to drop that metal popper as we were instructed to not disengage the first target with out stopping it first. I then had exrta rounds to deal with the additional targets presented. Immediately the instructor wanted to know how many rounds that mag held. 17 I replied and the example was a high capacity magazine saving your butt. They were legal to own but hard to come by at that time.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Good post, Jak. I like the part of "train as you fight" because the corollary is, I believe, "you will fight as you train".

I have some experience here. After a day of semi-auto instruction, including clearing malfunctions, the next time I was at the range I had a real stoppage. My hands seemed to automatically tap, rack, and bang, without having to think about it. I was actually quite surprised at my quick reaction.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Good post. Often I'm armed and often I only have one magazine filled with ammo. When going about my day to day business, I may be prepared to defend myself against a lone (or maybe two) attackers, but I'm usually not carrying multiple ammo filled magazines. I need to work on this plan.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

I totally agree with the adage, . . . you will fight as you train. At 17 years involved in various military endeavors, . . . that was brought home to me all too often.

And when the subject of ammo comes up, . . . I cannot remember the first time I heard it said, . . . but I like it, . . . "Nobody ever comes in from a firefight and declares that from now on he is just not going to carry as much ammo".

May God bless,
Dwight


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> I totally agree with the adage, . . . you will fight as you train. At 17 years involved in various military endeavors, . . . that was brought home to me all too often.
> 
> And when the subject of ammo comes up, . . . I cannot remember the first time I heard it said, . . . but I like it, . . . "Nobody ever comes in from a firefight and declares that from now on he is just not going to carry as much ammo".
> 
> ...


Yup. If you were trained by the Army or Marines at your very first contact you will automatically know what to do without much conscious thought. If not, you will most likely stop a moment to think. And that very well could cost you your life. After you've been through a few (if you have survived) it becomes easier.
Clint Smith (noted firearms instructor, combat wounded Marine and Viet vet) said: "No one who has survived a gunfight has ever wished for a smaller gun or less ammo."


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I trained under Clint Smith. I took his SWAT/Countersniper courses. He is a smart dude and a great instructor.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Good post Jak. Being prepared is more then just having the equipment. You have to practice at all your preps. Not just firearms use but all of it. Know your equipment. The more your trained the less likely it will be that you hesitate in a real engagement. I try to practice with everything I have. And while I came up hard and fast I and know how to use my fists, hand to hand would be last resort for me now. Too old and to many pains to go against 25 year old hard cases anymore. LOL I know I need more training in firearm profesioncy. I have taken a couple of courses but I am currently looking into tactical classes. Will I shoot? Without hesitation. Will I be GI Joe? No. I will never acquire the training one would get in the military or police academies. Those days are behind me. But I will be further along then most of the people out there.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Prepared One said:


> Good post Jak. Being prepared is more then just having the equipment. You have to practice at all your preps. Not just firearms use but all of it. Know your equipment. The more your trained the less likely it will be that you hesitate in a real engagement. I try to practice with everything I have. And while I came up hard and fast I and know how to use my fists, hand to hand would be last resort for me now. Too old and to many pains to go against 25 year old hard cases anymore. LOL I know I need more training in firearm profesioncy. I have taken a couple of courses but I am currently looking into tactical classes. Will I shoot? Without hesitation. Will I be GI Joe? No. I will never acquire the training one would get in the military or police academies. Those days are behind me. But I will be further along then most of the people out there.


You may never (God willing) get real life combat experience that the military and police get over time, but the training, that is always attainable. It's never too late to break open manuals, watch demonstrations, take classes etc.

A good tactical class will teach you all of the same basics with minor tweaks from the instructor's personal experience (or lack thereof) as what police and military get. It's practice and review that makes police and military as good as they are.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

I have an experience, that I never will forget-and I count my blessings I came out ok.
I was a sniper, my selected rifle M24(boltgun) was not available so I was given a M21/m25(based on the m14) after zeroing and familiarizing myself with it I was deployed on a support role for a infantry patrol. The patrol came under fire so I went into action after the 3rd shot my position came under fire from a 12.7 mm (like a 50 cal) one of the rounds hit my rifle and fubared it. At that time I defended my position with a m9(9mm handgun) I fired around 1000 or so rounds with it ( I tried to bale on the position but got pinned down ) no I did not have an m4 I was dropped off by Blackhawk and was only supposed to be there in position until the patrol was out of area -lesson always have a backup to your backup to your backup to your backup I was there for almost 12 hours the berretta was no longer black it was now a chalky white, the [email protected]# was getting tight I called and called for evac or fire support -nothing I thought I was abandoned - and I can tell you at that moment I was angry, terrified, sad, and adrenalized all at the same time, thought I was toast and had thought of giving up. just when I thought I was done "game over feeling" a little bird came through mowed the area with minigun fire and then picked me up -second lesson- NEVER give up, never. My training saved my life, kept me fighting, the drills that I thought were just repetitive nonsense-no way my body knew what to do before my mind could register it was already done. Even the little things that I thought I would not ever remember -I remembered what and how to do them as it I had the instructions programmed into my brain.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Medic33 said:


> I have an experience, that I never will forget-and I count my blessings I came out ok.
> I was a sniper, my selected rifle M24(boltgun) was not available so I was given a M21/m25(based on the m14) after zeroing and familiarizing myself with it I was deployed on a support role for a infantry patrol. The patrol came under fire so I went into action after the 3rd shot my position came under fire from a 12.7 mm (like a 50 cal) one of the rounds hit my rifle and fubared it. At that time I defended my position with a m9(9mm handgun) I fired around 1000 or so rounds with it ( I tried to bale on the position but got pinned down ) no I did not have an m4 I was dropped off by Blackhawk and was only supposed to be there in position until the patrol was out of area -lesson always have a backup to your backup to your backup to your backup I was there for almost 12 hours the berretta was no longer black it was now a chalky white, the [email protected]# was getting tight I called and called for evac or fire support -nothing I thought I was abandoned - and I can tell you at that moment I was angry, terrified, sad, and adrenalized all at the same time, thought I was toast and had thought of giving up. just when I thought I was done "game over feeling" a little bird came through mowed the area with minigun fire and then picked me up -second lesson- NEVER give up, never. My training saved my life, kept me fighting, the drills that I thought were just repetitive nonsense-no way my body knew what to do before my mind could register it was already done. Even the little things that I thought I would not ever remember -I remembered what and how to do them as it I had the instructions programmed into my brain.


Man I hate to say it but Gotta bring out the BS card why would you be alone and why would you have 1000 rounds of 9mm I dont carry 1000 rounds of 7.62 link on patrol Ive never heard of a sniper getting dropped off at their position by black hawk and why would a medic be sniper trained that one has always seemed weird to me the two skillsets dont work together one completely defeats the other.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

call it what you want, sometimes shit just works out that way.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Medic33 said:


> call it what you want, sometimes shit just works out that way.


BS it is then thx
Thats a full can of 9mm actually a full can plus 20rds gotta be the worlds worst sniper to think your gonna need that much lol and not taking a primary weapon system, I know some snipers do it but only when their spotter is taking one. So your saying you reloaded your 9mm 67 times with a mag or that you hand jammed 1000 rds while an enemy was close enough to a sniper position to engage with 9mm. Dont worry man next time your story will make more sense say like 45rds we typically carry 1 mag in the gun and two spares. Also say something like I fast roped in a terrain feature away under cover of darkness 24hrs prior to the op to get a feel for the environment. I could still believe the medic/sniper thing it could happen but, only by giving you a lot of leeway.
Why man why make shit up I am just curious why some people do it.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Medic33 said:


> I have an experience, that I never will forget-and I count my blessings I came out ok.
> I was a sniper, my selected rifle M24(boltgun) was not available so I was given a M21/m25(based on the m14) after zeroing and familiarizing myself with it I was deployed on a support role for a infantry patrol. The patrol came under fire so I went into action after the 3rd shot my position came under fire from a 12.7 mm (like a 50 cal) one of the rounds hit my rifle and fubared it. At that time I defended my position with a m9(9mm handgun) I fired around 1000 or so rounds with it ( I tried to bale on the position but got pinned down ) no I did not have an m4 I was dropped off by Blackhawk and was only supposed to be there in position until the patrol was out of area -lesson always have a backup to your backup to your backup to your backup I was there for almost 12 hours the berretta was no longer black it was now a chalky white, the [email protected]# was getting tight I called and called for evac or fire support -nothing I thought I was abandoned - and I can tell you at that moment I was angry, terrified, sad, and adrenalized all at the same time, thought I was toast and had thought of giving up. just when I thought I was done "game over feeling" a little bird came through mowed the area with minigun fire and then picked me up -second lesson- NEVER give up, never. My training saved my life, kept me fighting, the drills that I thought were just repetitive nonsense-no way my body knew what to do before my mind could register it was already done. Even the little things that I thought I would not ever remember -I remembered what and how to do them as it I had the instructions programmed into my brain.


I'm genuinely surprised you actually had 1000 rounds of ammo for your Beretta. I've never seen anyone carry more than 3 spare mags for one. Lucky you had at least that much foresight.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Take it from an old timer.

What is the difference between a War Story, and a Fairy Tale?
One starts out "Once Upon A Time", and the other "There I Was...."


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

yah man, there I was in nam not Vietnam just nam in a swamp by the delta late at night I think it was in Louisiana , those chicken(you know feathers , lay eggs n stuff)) were running all around me I was scared I tell yah, then one of those chicken( feathers /eggs you get the point) ran right up on me got right in my face a yelled what sound like F#$% off -all I had was my 1.85 inch bayonet and a red twizzler licorice stick -it was sic man real sic. :bs:


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> You may never (God willing) get real life combat experience that the military and police get over time, but the training, that is always attainable. It's never too late to break open manuals, watch demonstrations, take classes etc.
> 
> A good tactical class will teach you all of the same basics with minor tweaks from the instructor's personal experience (or lack thereof) as what police and military get. It's practice and review that makes police and military as good as they are.


Yep. Keep in mind I would be just fine if I never have to put any of my preps to use. The occasional hurricane I will have to deal with no doubt. And I am ready for those. Been through 3 already. LOL. A real SHTF scenario, I hope never comes. That would prove me wrong ( I see bad things on the horizon ) and I would happily except that. However, I don't have confidence in what I am seeing for the future, so it would be prudent if I would be prepared as best I can for worst case scenarios just in case I am right.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

No amount of training will make you a killer.

Train til you drop but if you're not a killer the only way you'll kill an opponent is by accident.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> Good post Jak. Being prepared is more then just having the equipment. You have to practice at all your preps. Not just firearms use but all of it.


Not to hijack the thread, but practicing ALL your preps is so important. Don't just keep a can of heirloom seeds and a handbook on how to raise chickens. DO IT! Start a garden, get some chickens, build a biosand filter, put some miles on those new boots, cook some meals in the Dutch oven or sun oven. It takes TONS of mistakes to become an expert or adequately proficient at _anything,_ and there will simply not be the time to spend on mistakes and a steep learning curve when SHTF.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

I hope none of you go through the learn curve I went though. It would be great if no one ever had to. Education can come very quickly. Train until you do with out thinking about the little stuff. Use your training to think through the rest. To act is better than to react.
I know many of you have been there done that. I pretty sure you feel close to the same way about it.


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## warrior4 (Oct 16, 2013)

I 100% agree. I help out at the local vocational school that has an EMT/Paramedic training program. I'm constantly telling my students, "you will perform how you practice." I see it on the street too. The students who are engaged and take what I'm teaching to heart usually succeed. The students who make excuses, slack off, don't do their work usually don't make it through the program. Likewise the way they treat their training scenarios in the classroom is how I see them behave in the back of the ambulance with me. 

The other thing to consider is the adage, "practice makes perfect." I disagree with that. "Perfect practice makes perfect." If you keep practicing something the wrong way you'll perform the wrong way when it's time to use those skills.


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