# How do you handle ethical / moral decisions when TEOTWAWKI hits?



## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Alaskan Family started a thread about "would you say no to family and friends."

Some where around post #25 somebody said something that got me to thinking, and at the risk of hijacking that thread, I thought I'd start a new one because this has the potential of taking off in a totally different direction.

*Scenario:*
You and your family are prepped and ready. You have the essentials: the food, the medicine, the guns, the knives, gas transportation, etc. You're ready for the next three months maybe six with out worry. But... There are a few things you need that you don't have. Maybe a tent, a chainsaw, extra bleach, and some barter material like liquor and cigarettes.

Next to you lives a young lady. She knows nothing of prepping. Her time is spent partying and hanging out with friends. Or maybe she's an old lady on an oxygen machine and can't live with out significant amounts of medication. Or maybe its an old alcoholic guy, divorced and the kids have grown up and forsaken him for being an alcoholic father that was never there. What ever the background is, there are a few things that are evident:

1. This person is ill prepared. They have the potential to last a week at max.
2. They have NO defenses and will be over run soon.
3. They have things you need that would help your very prepared family last a little longer but in their hands it is wasted.

Now the SHTF. I'm not talking small or regional like a Hurricane - we all know that is survivable. I'm talking like the caldera in Yosemite National Park becomes an active volcano, darkens the sky with ash for months and triggers a series of earth quakes that finally drop the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia into the ocean as a part of a chain of quakes that spread across the US to the New Madrid fault line in Missouri. Throw in there that we are in Obama's 11th year as president and he has nearly buckled the economy to its knees. There is no army left for humanitarian efforts and what we do have is trying to liberate Israel to give it back to the Muslims. That's the kind of no hope, no rescue, no light at the end of the tunnel event I'm talking about. We might climb out of this, but it will be decades.

Now back to your neighbor. They have and you need. They are toast either way you look at it.

What do you do? How do you solve this ethical dilemma?


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

I would offer them something in return for what i need. This is why I have acquired "extra" firearms, "extra" food, and extra
of many things. We all want to think we have it "all" covered but you never know. I'm not going to take anything from another
living person without offering something in exchange.


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## Old Man (Dec 10, 2012)

I am a prepper on our land in rural Mississippi. I plan to stay on my property and I have no plan to take from someone else. They will be a lot of people ill prepared. I can't take care of all of them. My family is it and others that I know and have plan with. Bottom line my family first, peroid!


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## grinder37 (Mar 1, 2013)

Of coarse,for me,it would be dependent on the actual situation that has happened,but if it is a worst case type deal,I have 2 neighbors that are like minded and would contribute to the cause,other than that it's my wife and kids only.I'd get my mother,but only if I could safely get to her 25 miles away,but I won't risk my family to save her.Sounds cruel,but she is elderly and has given me the "stink eye" for my planning and prepping,she refuses to open her eyes and thinks i'm wasting my money (that will be of no use soon anyway),time and effort.

I would think differently about taking in others to help save a life,but every single person that i've ever tried to get interested into protecting their own future has either blew it off or gave me the "he's crazy" look.Starting out just my family alone was NOT the main goal,but when friends and other family members turned their nose up to my ideas,preps and plans,now my wife and kids are my ONLY goal whatever I have to do.

Edit-I would like to add that I would never harm or take from a defenceless person.


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## hayden (Apr 30, 2012)

Is the young lady attractive and does she want to have sex with me? All things need to be considered.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Yes she is attractive, and willing to have sex with you as she has found in her life, that giving sex gets her food, drugs, clothes shelter, etc. etc.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, Herpes, sypholys, Ghonorea, Climitia, HIV, AIDs, are all free of charge.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

The best way to avoid a Moral dilemma is not to create one your self.
Charity is extended with no exception of return.
Should a Non-prepared person have skills or items that would serve the over all good, you must weight the pros and cons of inviting them in to your group.
There may well become a time when those to sick to injured, dependent on Medication not available to survive . When that comes the over all good must be served there is nothing that can be done.
Those that do not prepare and bring nothing to the table should be allowed to reap what they have sown. Cold no, reality.
Life is not a movie, the star ship, the earth is not saved in the last second by one heroic act .
Having a moral code you live by is hard it requires a standard most are unwilling to commit to .
Back to my first line.
You create the dilemma when you adopt unrealistic stands.
How you deal with others will require serious soul searching. The standards you set must be judge by weather they are reasonable and attainable . It does no good to adopt a standard you can not meet.
You will be view as a fool and conman . And in any case your leadership will fall into question.
"We will save everyone at all cost" No you won't. will you allow everyone to fail for one with no hope.
It is reasonable to say we will extend charity to those in need provide we have the resources to do so. You have now mad an unrealistic goal attainable. 
To review your plan and say we can take in a few more is also reasonable. How will you decide who?
To make either of these goal attainable requires you to review your ability and resources.
A goal may be reasonable but not attainable
It may also play out the other way a goal that seems unattainable may in the end be a responsible one.
Taking in a father ,mother with a child when your resources are tight may provide you with a spiritual awaking with in your group, one the will drive a spirit of survival.
never underestimate the power of humans when inspired.
Scary place when you look inside very scary.
A very evil man with insight in to the darkest side of man once ask Not will you die for me but will you kill for me. Manson.
He knew it was easier to die than to take a life for many. He wanted to extract the ultimate price of a persons soul. To bankrupt the last moral stand they had.


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## Blademaker (Feb 22, 2013)

Old Man said:


> I am a prepper on our land in rural Mississippi. I plan to stay on my property and I have no plan to take from someone else. They will be a lot of people ill prepared. I can't take care of all of them. My family is it and others that I know and have plan with. Bottom line my family first, peroid!


This.
Substitute cabin in the mountains in GA for the same answer.
I've made preparations for my immediate family.

Well said, Old Man


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## wesley762 (Oct 23, 2012)

I would say I have 2 rules....

Rule 1. Family comes first over everything else.

Rule 2. See rule 1


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

hayden said:


> Is the young lady attractive and does she want to have sex with me? All things need to be considered.


Actually I posted a comment about that on here some where a few months back. I can't find it now but you do surface a good point. Like it or not, be it part of your moral code or not - the oldest profession will make a strong comeback in a SHTF scenario.

Take the term "Sugar daddy" and replace sugar with "Security" or "Food" or "Ammo" or even "Nomalicy." I'm not saying it's right or good, but I know what people these days do in times of plenty to get what they want - imagine when things are lean. It will happen.


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## Verteidiger (Nov 16, 2012)

Given your hypothetical scenarios, I think the old lady who needs oxygen is not going to make it. She poses no threat, so I would try and help her until her time has come, and would trade with her for whatever goods she needed or we needed. 

The girl who did not prepare is on her own. First of all, I am happily married, and my wife will brook no rivals, so there is that reality. Plus, this girl chose her path. Reap what you sow. Sorry.

Old drunk dude will be gone soon, too. His substance abuse and age are both liabilities. I would trade with him, but not help him. He had his chance and bought booze instead of food. Sorry.

The one thing we all have to recognize is that if society has been destroyed, at some point, some form of society will begin to reemerge, even if only at the local level. Do you want to be known as the person who shot all his neighbors so he could survive? Who slaughtered wantonly to fill his own belly? People always do believe in justice, and also believe in payback. If somehow law and order is restored, you may face criminal justice later on. A lot of people who have been in these situations, usually brought about by warfare, have only taken care of themselves, and when things begin to return to what they once were, or to a semblance of what it once was, these people will be the objects of scorn, become outcasts, or worse. 

Speaking only for myself, I do not intend to set aside my own moral values, ethics, and personal belief systems just because things have gone to hell in a hand basket. I think most people will still remember the principles we value most even under the most difficult of circumstances. I will not become a monster just to ensure my stomach does not growl. Over time, if the situation does not improve, and everyone is forced to scavenge and fight over scraps like rats fighting over crumbs, perhaps I will have to reevaluate and adjust to the changed circumstances. I realize that, and if things really are destroyed to the point of it all has to be rebuilt, then how people react and behave will also adjust. 

I want to live, and I want to survive. But we all are going to die some day anyway. I do not want to be reduced to being some lost soul scraping the bottom of grease bins looking for food. If it gets that bad, like I said, I am attacking what is creating the situation. If I die, so be it - it is inevitable anyway. You know what they say, better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.

There is a point in everyone's life where living is no longer worth the effort. We will all experience it at some point in our own lives. If you are lucky, you die in your sleep. if not, you have to make a decision as to whether continuing to go on is worth the pain and effort to endure what that entails. Some of us will keep going; others will say too much is too much, and end their life. If life is worth living still, I will do my best to continue on. I am nothing if not persistent.

Our goals and plans are designed to allow us to be among the last people standing, if that is possible, and if that is worth it when everything is taken into account. If not, when our time has come, we will accept that. No one gets out of here alive. Reality.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Warning the women in my family are far better armed than most men, and they are better trained so good luck. Thirty round quick fire with a sub compact 380. Most went through the same area so many times you can't count them
Daughter, and she is even better with an AR. Being prepared means training not one day at a range.


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## Kidzthinkimahoarder (Feb 11, 2013)

I prep, and it's not for selfish reasons. If I die, I die. But I want my boys to live on, therefore I prep to make sure they have what they will need and the skills to do it. The thoughts of my boys suffering makes me sick, end of story. So the prepping that includes myself is so I CAN take care of them and thier needs as long as my body draws breath, and I don't care if they are 50 when the SHTF. And anyone that knows me personally knows that you mess with my kids, you've awakened the monster within..I can get real ugly, real quick.

The old lady, I'd help her. The other two, would be on their own. Sorry but I don't need thier selfishness added to the situation. But on the other hand, you have to think about this...you refuse to help and who do they go to next, and tell what kind of story to? Regardless of what you have at the time, people lie. The next thing you know you have a mad hoard showing up on your door step to take your possessions and flog you.

So, if push come to shove, the lil tramp might get help...and the drunk, well...I might hand him a bottle of wine, tie his ass up in the corner and tell him to shut up and enjoy himself.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Have you considered the fate of those with in your group? Moral issue there to look at.
We have. We know we can support 30 families with our group that is an average of 4 per family . 25 of of them will be set in stone. the other 5 are to allow some flexibility as the time approaches.
But we also know some with in our group will not last the first year. Medical issues and meds will run out. My wife is one of them. So is the Master at arms wife. We have all excepted that. 
Plans have been made once that happens for him and I to assume different roles and turn over leadership to others. The age spread will have will insure a tarnsition with out large gaps in roles
Life and death happens SHTF or not. 
You will be forced to deal with it better to face it now than hide your head in the sand.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

I would eat them when I get low on food. 



Just kidding.



I don't have a big love for people who party life away or ride on the backs of others. I may see if their worth a damn in helping the situation by working together if it may be worth it or write them off and by force if necessary. An elderly, sick neighbor who's an otherwise good person I will do what I can, but we all have are time and have to die someday. I'm not planning on sharing much supplies with anyone but family and close friends and anyone trying to steal what's mine will find themselves dead or badly injured. Man, woman or child. I hate thieves and have little concern for beggars. There's a certain part of our society who live by EBT cards (hence the backs of others) I already see as fodder and won't even bother to talk with them. I will share some copper covered lead with them though. I don't choose to live by them though so their not neighbors as the discussion presents. I do live nextdoor to a woman who is still a child in part at 37. Whether she's worth a damn I'm not sure.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Like others have said, I will not let that do away with my morale values. The old woman, God said you take care people like that. The others, if they have something to trade I will. Just because they may have something I need doesn't mean I have to take care of them. That is what barter is about. I don't plan on taking a life just because they have something I need.

That woman trading sex? If she is willing to do that for you, what will she do, or what has she done already for the enemy. I don't trust people like that. I knew a few growing up and found how untrustworthy they are. Not worth it at all. 

It's hard to tell how you would deal with each situation but Smitty901 and Verteidiger have the right of it. You stick to who you are and your core values. Otherwise you could loose your humanity as I see it. 

BTW, Obama's 11th year? Do you really think we will last that long? He will have destroyed this country long before that.


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## 8675309 (Feb 17, 2013)

It all depends on the attitude of each person. Would they become a problem? Chances are, if they have a bad attitude now, they will have a bad attitude after the SHTF. The old woman is easily controllable, the young woman might be a problem but can be handled and the old guy could really be a problem that I do not want to deal with. It really is a person by person decision. My two neighbors diagonally across the street, who's house I just left, No question would I help them. He is 77 and she is 78 and they would give me the shirt off their backs. My neighbor directly across the street however, well, lets just say due to his past and current life, I hope he gets taken out first. He knows not to come over here. If he was bleeding and crawling in the street, I would close the curtains. You reap what you sow...


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## bennettvm (Jan 5, 2013)

Trade/barter with them sure. Not going to adopt a person unless they can provide something to help out our group.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

GTGallop said:


> Actually I posted a comment about that on here some where a few months back. I can't find it now but you do surface a good point. Like it or not, be it part of your moral code or not - the oldest profession will make a strong comeback in a SHTF scenario.
> 
> Take the term "Sugar daddy" and replace sugar with "Security" or "Food" or "Ammo" or even "Nomalicy." I'm not saying it's right or good, but I know what people these days do in times of plenty to get what they want - imagine when things are lean. It will happen.


American King James Version
And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by your name, to take away our reproach.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

alterego said:


> American King James Version
> And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by your name, to take away our reproach.


I do remember that passage.

Isaiah 4:4 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach. (ASV)

But that still does not or should not mean ladies of the evening, for lack of a better term. Those mentioned in Isaiah would still pull their own weight. One still needs to be careful.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

They are on their own. In that situation, if you can't bring something to the table in terms of resources, too bad.


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## pharmer14 (Oct 27, 2012)

I plan on never running into them... that way I don't have to wrestle with them!


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