# They Aren't Saying the 7.62 Actually Sucks...



## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

But it seems SOCOM is looking to get a little more out of their semiautomatic sniper weapons systems by changing over to a new 6.5mm/0.264″ caliber round.

SOCOM Looks to 6.5mm Creedmoor, .260 Remington for New Semiautomatic Sniper Rifle - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

It seems we are coming full circle. Many folks think we should have adopted the .280 British in the first place instead of the 7.62 NATO. However there were a few good reasons not to at the time.

Modern Historical Intermediate Calibers 012: The .280 British - SPECIAL EXTENDED EDITION - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

Since neither round was actually a non-magnum 'Magical' round; unlike the modern (also non-magnum) .270's replacement the .280 Rem, which just also doesn't fit in a AR10 SA Type Rifle, the quest has continued.

The advantage for SOCOM is the 6.5 and 260 are 'perfected' off the self solutions, and only require a barrel change to adopt in most systems. They both match or beat the 5.56 and the 7.62 (Velocity/Terminal Effects) and closely match the 300WM in trajectory, but beating even that long range flat shooting smacker in the recoil dept. Couple all that with being able to use the already owned 7.62 systems would seemingly make either one a no-brainer for SOCOM.

Maybe the regular services will pick up on it too. At least for machine gun roles, but especially in the creating a new platform to succeed where the Light MGs/5.56 hasn't faired well at all against emplaced 7.62×54mmR machine guns in the middle-east conflicts.

I have been a fan the 6 and 6.5 for quite a while; Magnum trajectory without the recoil and able to use 7.62 cases, bolts and magazines, what is not to like.

I know, I know, they still aren't quite 'Magical'.


----------



## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Swedes had the 6.5 figured out in 1891. Doesn't surprise me it took the US military this long to realize it. 

I do agree with you. Why not switch out to 6.5 for all branches of the military? Dump the 556, 308 and the 300 win mag. With just the 6.5 and 338L it would make supply easier. Plus give our troops the superior fire power they need and deserve.


----------



## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

And while they're at it, go ahead and standardize.357sig or 10mm handguns/SMGs and get it done. War is not an egalitarian activity, compromising caliber/training for weak(er) personnel is dumb, as is doing it to share spit with weak allies (NATO/UN)


----------



## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

Chipper said:


> Swedes had the 6.5 figured out in 1891. Doesn't surprise me it took the US military this long to realize it.
> 
> I do agree with you. Why not switch out to 6.5 for all branches of the military? Dump the 556, 308 and the 300 win mag. With just the 6.5 and 338L it would make supply easier. Plus give our troops the superior fire power they need and deserve.


Europeans have been killing elk sized deer, boar and black bear with the 6.5 Swedish for over 125 years, so we know it works. While I think it could possibly replace the .308 I just don't think it is going to displace the 5.56. The 6.5 Grendel was designed as an intermediate cartridge for AR-15-length rifles, requiring a change of bolt, barrel, and magazine. To date there have been no military takers except for some sniper/designated marksman rifles by the Serbians and only then in this very limited role.

The 6.5 Creedmore and .260 Rem are only compatible with AR-10, so I think the 5.56 will be seen as good enough and will live as long the brass case does in the US military for a infantry combat round.

I agree the 6.5 should replace .300WM as well as the 308. Two that I know aren't going anywhere for sure are the .50BMG and the 12ga. The .338LM seems like it will come into its own.

The 6.5G is an intermediate to LR cartridge. The 6.8 SPC was developed specifically for CQB. Neither went anywhere, because the 5.56 just seems good enough in the basic dogface role. The 5.56 really fails on the battlefield at crew served/DM/Sniper distances (308 and 300WM have been adequate) where as others have said the 6.5 really shows it's stuff is at these ranges where the 5.56 fails. After all is said and done the 5.56 is bought and paid for, and it wins in rounds per pound and mag capacity categories too.

The 3 big reasons the .308 can be allowed to wither and the 300WM phased out? equal/better performance, economy (barrel only upgrade for 308), and that Lake City can make a 308 case-based 6.5 in the quantities and with the specs the DOD will require. In fact I think that will be the deciding factor for choosing 6.5C or 260 Rem.

Big problem/stumbling block for this happening? Big Green and NATO intransigence.

At least SOCOM will get it. SOCOM pretty much always gets what it wants... including .45.

So I would say that I could see these 6 ultimately sticking around for the infantry/marines: 9mm, 12ga, 5.56, 6.5?, 338LM, and the ever ubiquitous 50BMG.


----------



## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

So Creedmore is a good replacement for the 308/338? Yet, it only fits in 308 rifle type lowers etc as far as AR10/15 rifles are concerned?


----------



## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

Steve40th said:


> So Creedmore is a good replacement for the 308/338? Yet, it only fits in 308 rifle type lowers etc as far as AR10/15 rifles are concerned?


Yes. That is why the 6.5C or 260 Rem is only eligible to replace the 308/300WM and not the 5.56. The 6.5 Grendel does fit the AR15. It has not been well received by the worlds military and only has a real measure of success in the private realm. The 338LM is in another class all by it's self. Designed as a sniper round and capable of penetrating Armor out to 1000 meters it has been very successful in that role.

Because a 6.5 based off of the 308 case only requires a barrel change to upgrade, the manufacturing infrastructure and existing inventory make it possible to actually upgrade to a clearly superior round and replace both the 308 and the 300WM for a very low cost. Not so with the Grendel.


----------



## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

So the Creedmore is a better round, easily adaptable to existing weapons


----------



## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

Steve40th said:


> So the Creedmore is a better round, easily adaptable to existing weapons


Correct. I think the flavor of which 308 based 6.5's adoption, will hinge on Lake City Armory's cost and ability to supply consistently DOD correct spec ammunition. Remington and Hornady will probably have some input to...


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

300WM in the 2010 Military rifle is making 1800 meter kills. If you want more than that go back and get the 50.


----------



## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> 300WM in the 2010 Military rifle is making 1800 meter kills. If you want more than that go back and get the 50.


Absolutely the 300WM carries more whack to the target out to farther distances because of a larger case capacity. That being said in the DM role I think the 6.5 CM or Rem is better choice because of reduced recoil and it is a natural in semi-automatic AR-10, unlike the 300WM which is based on the 375 H&H. I was thinking the 338LM would really start to come into it's own to pick that LR Sniper work up and also be able to do it in a semi automatic too, albeit not in the AR-10 either.

No doubt the 50BMG has the record for most ELR (Extreme Long Range) kills since Carlos Hathcock first thought of the 50BMG as a sniper round in 1967, but the 338LM still holds the record for not just 1, but 2 kills at 2,707 yards and also another shot which destroyed their BG's machine gun at the same distance. BTW the 338LM is also what Chris Kyle used to make his longest kill shot at 2100 yards.

The 50BMG will never go away. It is superior as a precision ELR anti-material round, however the 338LM is a lighter weapon weighing in at only 15.1 lbs. Which is just 3lbs more than the 300WM M2010 Enhanced Sniper Rifle, but with a 30% increase in effective range in bolt action. You are right though there will always be a job for the 50BMG...


----------



## Grinch2 (Sep 12, 2016)

You know my father owns a 6.5 Creedmore, the thing is a laser beam for deer, he points, shoots and before you know it we're skinning a deer. But you know I truthfully believe it is going to take a lot of replace not fully but even partially the 556 and 7.62. It seems there's always big fads, right now the 6.5 and 260 are hot. At one time the 300AAC Blackout and 458 Socom were in season, both seem to have faded out.


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

There are a lot of things to consider in changing rounds.

Everything has to change not just guns or barrels.

The entire logistics system has to change to get that round to the trigger puller, you are looking at billions of dollars.

There are always new hot rounds that come and go, you will see a lot in SPECOPS, microscopic quantities in comparison to army wide.

Being involved in the industry for over 5 decades, I can see where this is going nowhere, not while we are in a shooting war.

What they have works, 7.62x51 is good for riflemen in places like the sandbox, there is no miracle all around round.

A friend now passed used a 90MM tank gun in a M46 tank to snipe at N. Korean soldiers on the ridge lines during the Korean war.

Shooting was done at around 1,500 to 1,800 yards with HE.


----------



## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

The old saying: "Follow the money", . . . 

That will determine what, . . . if any, . . . is the next round adopted. 

Ballistic tests can be engineered, finagled, or doctored to give any result wanted.

Scientific tests can be manipulated in the same manner.

Whose ever palm gets the most grease, . . . will be the new bright one in town, . . . . 

The 7.62 x 51 is an excellent round, . . . the .270, . . . .280, . . . .300 blackout, . . . creedmoor, . . . 5.56, . . . all are excellent rounds, . . . when you tailor the need to that particular cartridge, . . . none of the others stands a chance.

None of them is head and shoulders above all the rest, . . . unless of course you are talking about Ma Duece's diet, . . . that one is hard to beat, . . . but it also it hard to carry, . . . 

May God bless,
Dwight


----------



## Gunn (Jan 1, 2016)

Change the 5.56 to the 6.5 grendel. I have been shooting the Grendel for several years. It out performs so many different rounds it is amazing. We compete with them past 800 yards.


----------



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

*But it seems SOCOM is looking to get a little more out of their semiautomatic sniper weapons systems by changing over to a new 6.5mm/0.264″ caliber round.

*After all of the struggle to find a new round, SOCOM circles back to the 6.5mm? There must be a lot of politics involved in that, because I can sit here and think up a .25 that would get things done. If I can do it, then SOCOM has covered that ground, over and over. I can think up a 7mm that would get things done, why even bother with a 6.5mm?

I get it, I get it, R&D in action. But, it is like they have struggled to deliver, and it is yet another still-birth. Jesus, after a while, ya lose confidence in their abilities.


----------

