# De-electronifying a 2002 pickup



## Pengyou (Nov 28, 2012)

I am considering buying a 2002 Toyota pickup. As far as I know, it has a solid state electronic ignition and EFI - possibly an electronic fuel pump as well. Is there any way to replace this equipment with non-electronic parts and still have a useful, fairly fuel efficient engine?


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

In a word No. Not impossible but if you are asking, you probably haven't worked on engines enough to know what would be involved, would be easier getting a carbureted engine then complete trying to change the one in the vehicle. You need a computer to run the fuel injectors alone.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

*Jerry Emanualson* is an electronics engineer who has been thinking about the EMP problem for more than 3 decades. This is an excerpt from his book _*Getting Prepared for an Electromagnetic Pulse Attack or Severe Solar Storm*_. I feel it is correct but you need to do you're own research and make your decisions accordingly.

One thing that you'll discover in that Critical National Infrastructures Report is that automobiles and trucks seem to be more resilient against EMP attacks that what is portrayed in most fiction. Although many vehicles would be rendered inoperative, and it will be a regular "demolition derby" on streets and highways, many (but not all) vehicles that are not running at the time of an EMP will be likely to run after they are started (although there is a very high probability that your car will experience electronic damage outside of the electronic ignition system, and your car may have to be started in an unconventional way. It is also possible that you may have to momentarily disconnect the battery so that electronic modules can recover from an EMP-caused latch-up condition, a situation that, in automobiles, is unique to EMP.) It may be necessary to have a maintenance manual for your car so that you, or someone you know, can figure out how to bypass the damaged modules in your car.
Vehicles, especially gasoline vehicles, have to have a robust amount of electromagnetic shielding around the entire electronic ignition system. Otherwise, the ignition noise from all the automobiles would render radio and television sets unusable (especially car radios). Today's automobiles have published standards for electromagnetic shielding, but there is not much consistency in shielding requirements.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Pengyou said:


> I am considering buying a 2002 Toyota pickup. As far as I know, it has a solid state electronic ignition and EFI - possibly an electronic fuel pump as well. Is there any way to replace this equipment with non-electronic parts and still have a useful, fairly fuel efficient engine?


By far the cheapest way would be go get replacement parts and store them in a faraday cage, then replace them after the burst.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

Even if you did have the only car that ran after an EMP, would you really want to go for a drive with millions of cars broken down on the road and none of the people having a way to get home.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

There will be many working vehicles after an emp, I own 2 that are old enough to survive and a tractor, it would be cool to have my 2003 dodge diesel working, I might take my own advice at a a junk yard and get some parts.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Here's some addition infor covering the 2002 vehicles.
EMP Effects on Vehicles - Futurescience.com


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## pastornator (Apr 5, 2013)

The core engine of some vehicles produced before 2000 or so can be converted back to non-electronic use. But it would take someone familiar with the parts and how to swap them. Late model engines and transmissions are highly dependent on computer controls with hidden things like variable cam timing, variable cylinders, electronically-controlled fuel, spark, air, and timing controls, transmission shift points and pump pressures, etc. Those earlier than 2000 had some of these systems, but far more rudimentary in execution. For instance, I run a 1995 Dodge with a Cummins diesel and an auto transmission. It will run without an electrical system but not shift into OD. I have already by-passed CPU processing for the transmission and control shift points and lock-up via dash-mounted switches. 

Most vehicles produced before 1980 will just start and run.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

IMO it would be much easier to just pick up an older rig that doesn't have electronics. Why spend the cash to destroy your nice rig. Any mods you do will drop the value to 99% of the buying public. Plus it will be fun to give the old beater the Mad Max treatment to suit your needs.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The maximum field strength of these tests was 50Kv/m and the field strength of a small (50 - 100 KTn) thermonuclear device detonated in orbit is 20 times as strong. (1Mv/m) I think this report is another "feel good" report by a government agency.

Get a mid to early 60s car or truck and fix it up into a reliable daily driver - not a show car, a daily driver - and use that as your BOV.


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## StarPD45 (Nov 13, 2012)

You don't say where you are, but in the short term, you probably won't pass emissions inspection, and you wouldn't be able to get tags renewed in most places.
Buy something older. Lots of old Toyotas, as well as others floating around that you can probably pick up cheap.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Chipper said:


> IMO it would be much easier to just pick up an older rig that doesn't have electronics. Why spend the cash to destroy your nice rig. Any mods you do will drop the value to 99% of the buying public. Plus it will be fun to give the old beater the Mad Max treatment to suit your needs.


Now there is some smart advice right there and the oath of least resistance! Most American Made vehicles manufactured before 1982 have minimal electronic parts on them and could fairly easily survive EMP. I wont get into the fact that the average Joe can usually make just about any repair to them without a degree in vehicle engineering as well. Pre-1982 vehicles are very simple straight forward combustion engines with mechanical components for the most part and require just basic knowledge and tools.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

StarPD45 said:


> You don't say where you are, but in the short term, you probably won't pass emissions inspection, and you wouldn't be able to get tags renewed in most places.
> Buy something older. Lots of old Toyotas, as well as others floating around that you can probably pick up cheap.


More great advice and a consideration many dont think about...passing emmisions inspection which is required in many locations throughout the country these days and it seems to be getting to be that way in more and more places. What you can get away with today...might not be allowed a few years from now and then your stuck with a vehicle that may not be grandfathered in future regs. This is rarely an issue on a older vehicle when new laws come into effect in order to allow "classic cars and collectors" to still register and drive their older vehicles.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Diesel pickup,
Stick shift
Park on a hill


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## SSGT (Jul 29, 2012)

Here's something I've done 40 or 50 times......Stick a 350 Chevy in it...Dual points distributor build it like the 40's and 50's! Everything is STILL available today and easy to find!






Ford 302 Engines are a dream to stick in them too!

EMP may take out your radio but the truck will still start and run!

Buy a good cheap body and get busy!


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The problem with modifying a vehicle is that there is so much emission controls that are electronic.
It is (and has been since 1972) a federal crime to disconnect, remove or disable any safety or emission control device on any vehicle upon which it was factory installed. Some states have stricter requirments but that is the federal law and the penalty is up to 5 years in jail, $50,000 fine or both.

If you want a vehicle to modify get a pre-1975 vehicle because up to that point there was little nasty stuff on them. Also, consider a truck because the emission standards for them was enacted years later. Plan on rebuilding the engine, transmission, front suspension and steering for sure. You might also have to do brakes, radiator, repairs to window regulators and wiper motors. We have two 1973 Ford Mavericks that I have done those things and more to put them back into road-worthy condition. Plan on spending $1000 - $2000 for the vehicle and then put another $3000 into it.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

I have been looking into HHO dry cell generators for my 1969 Ford F100 and my 1983 Chevy Blazer (rebuilt 4 bolt main 350 engine with points distributor)

HHO DRY CELL Best HHO Dry Cell Design, HHO Kits

The Technology looks good but if you have a computer in your car it takes a lot of extra work. My Blazer is already converted to propane so I am very excited to install a HHO in that one.

I bet you never thought of this thread going to hydrogen power cars hehe

I'm going to post a thread on FRANTZ oil filters, look for that too


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

HHO generators are one of the biggest hoaxes ever. Don't waste you time or money on a system.


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## pastornator (Apr 5, 2013)

No kidding... If they worked everyone would be running them. Not that they are theoretically impossible, but that they don't produce enough BTUs to operate a vehicle sized engine on a regular basis. 

Might want to check into wood gassification instead.


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## Southern Dad (Nov 26, 2012)

I think that one of the best ways to have a sure operating vehicle is to have an older vehicle as a spare. However, as I posted in an earlier thread, how do you keep the authorities who are not prepared from confiscating your operating vehicle? Firing on or running down law enforcement never works out well. I think an older pickup truck would be great to have around.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Montana Rancher said:


> I have been looking into HHO dry cell generators for my 1969 Ford F100 and my 1983 Chevy Blazer (rebuilt 4 bolt main 350 engine with points distributor)
> 
> HHO DRY CELL Best HHO Dry Cell Design, HHO Kits
> 
> ...


Are running propane under pressure, like a forklift uses?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Propane will only be available as long as the rest of the fossil fuels are so that is not a good choice. I am thinking about conversion to alcohol (ethanol not methanol). Methanol is available as a petrolium distilate or as a wood distilate but it is corrosive and a solvent for many different rubber products making it expensive to change a car over to its use. Ethanol on the other hand is not corrosive and is friendly to the normal rubber products in your car's fuel system so it is relatively easy to convert a car to use as a fuel.
When I do convert, my cars will not be able to run on gasoline because in order to be efficient the engine will have to have a compression ratio of between 13 and 14 to 1 which is more than 50% higher than the gas at the gas station will handle.
Why alcohol? you might ask. Ethanol has a lot of advantages over other fuels. It can be inexpensive to make, it makes more hp than gasoline when used in an engine that is completely and properly set up for it and you can get a permit from the ATF for free to make up to 10000 gallons each year. It can be used in stoves, lighting, home heating systems, cars and trucks, aircraft, and farm equipment. It is especially good in the internal combustion engine because volumetrically it produces more power per gallon than gasoline in the IC engine. On the surface using 25-30% more fuel in a car engine doesn't sound like a good idea but the car engine is made for gasoline and has a compression ratio of 8 or 9 to 1 for every pound of gas you need to use about 14 pounds of air to make it burn so you are actually putting in 1/14 of your combustion as liquid fuel that expands and heats the air. With alcohol you get about 10% of your mixture as liquid. This liquid expands 200 times its original volume turning to a gas and then under the heat of compression and combustion heats and expands another 200 times. The expansion process removes heat from the engine turning it into horsepower. Even though it appears on the surface that your milage will drop 25% using ethanol the extra power means you use less throttle and that consumes less fuel. You end up getting the same mileage (with the much higher compression ratio) and when you want it the extra power (up to 40% more) is also there. In home heating the ethanol has another distinct advantage - latent heat content. For fuel you use 140 to 180 proof alcohol which means that it has 20 to 60% water in it. As the alcohol burns it turns the water to steam and that steam makes the heat last longer so you get more heat out of it than you would using pure alcohol. It is better than propane heat and doesn't need a pump to make it work in the very coldest weather. It can be gravity fed to your heater.

Anyway, I am getting too carried away here but ethanol can be made anywhere and all you need is a processing vat and a reflux still to get high quality ethanol. I have one reflux still for water purification and the only difference is that it will be run at a slightly LOWER temperature to process the ethanol.


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

Something with a diesel engine,with a rack puller to throttle and shut it down.and without electronic glowplug controls like the old nissans,and volkswagens they were just a solenoid wired to the glow plugs with a timer lamp and and you could even heat the plugs with a screwdriver shorted against the solenoid, no keys needed or just a switch. engine could be run on light oil,kerosene, diesel, jet a or biodiesel as long a you could keep the biodiesel or a mix of all including motor oil warm and filter it really well as long as there was a battery,it would start and run,then maybe a faraday cage around the alternator and starter possibly?


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