# Suburbanites and urbanites that plan to bug in



## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

This thread is for suburbanites and urbanites that plan to bug in because I know most of you rural country folks have this covered. But most of us suburbanites and urbanites don't. So when the SHTF what are we going to us to cook our food with. The propane tanks in our BBQ grills will only last so long.

I have been looking at bio mass fuel stoves for some time. And the other day I had the opportunity to visit a fellow prepper that had several types and styles of stoves to see and use. Some he made and some he purchased. Unless you have all the tools and material handy he recommends the retail versions. He said if you count you time, materials and trials and errors you will come out better to buy one. He said the store bought ones normally work better and last longer than the homemade. I will leave those debates up to you do decide or discuss in another thread.

I ended up getting both Silverfire Survivor rocket and the Silverfire Hunter TLUD. I needed two stoves due to the size of my group and wanted one to cook and while at the same time bake/cook on the other. Here are my thoughts on both stoves. Both boil water on very little fuel. Just a hand full of twigs, pine cones or any bio fuel will do. Maintaining the fire the TLUD Hunter stove takes less attention. You can concentrate on cooking and not worrying about having to keep pushing your sticks in to keep the fire going. I also found that the heat is more controllable with the Hunter stove. The Hunter can also be used indoors by adding additional 3"duck to duck the exhaust outside. For us that have the Coleman Oven it sets better on the Hunter too. It will set on the Survivor but it's too easy to knock off. The Silverfire rocket stove on the other hand is smaller and lighter to move around. It works better when you need a constant high heat like boiling water or frying. The only advantage I found that the Survivor had over the Hunter stove was that it was lighter and you could use larger pots and pans.

There are a lot of different manufactures of rocket/TLUD stoves and videos on how to make them so you don't have to buy a Silverfire like I did. But if you plan to bug in and you don't have a stove to cook your food other than your BBQ grill or a cowboy campfire . Then I suggest you look at bio mass stoves. They use very little fuel and they produce little or no smoke. In In most states bio mass fuel is abundant and if you live in states where tress are few then these type of stoves are a must. You can cook a meal on a few twigs and branches you find on the ground or the amount of kindling most people would use to start a fire.


----------



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I would think that people would send their kids out to scrounge wood or anything else combustible.


----------



## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I went with the biolite and its water pot. It was a little costly but it works just exactly as it is advertised to work. Bio mass which is plenty abundant and produces electricity which will keep my devices and radio etc running for quite a while. Wins all the way. I also,have a fire pit with a cook shelf and grill. I'm set!


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

There is wood in the woodpile, and 12 acres of woods in back of me. I'll make do with that when everything else runs out. However, during Hurricane Sandy, the natural gas kept flowing, so in anything less than a total SHTF running for months or more, I've got gas and the gas will run the generator.


----------



## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Thank you for reminding me. I keep a backup cannister of propane on hand at all times (in addition to the one on the BBQ) and my spare is empty. I emptied it right before I left for Atlanta, so I totally forgot about it. Gotta get that filled this weekend.

Actually I found some interesting concepts about rural versus urban in an apocalypse. Although conventional wisdom tells us to bug out to a remote location, but that creates hardships when you need to go foraging. If you are remote, then every time you go shopping for supplies or slaves it is a huge event. But this all depends on the calamity you face. Not all events are created equal.

I have always prepared to stay put because several prominent scenarios will mandate it. But I also have a backup place (the ranch) in the event that it is another type of emergency where you need to GTFO. 

But to the original thread, we mostly cook with an electric skillet, and the stove is electric. I BBQ a lot, hell, I even BBQ fish. When my BBQ dies, I am totally getting one o the ones that handles gas and wood.


----------



## rjd25 (Nov 27, 2014)

You can build a rocket stove with 4 cinder blocks...


----------



## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

I have 2 large propane tanks, over 1000 liters when full, that feed my hot water baseboard system. I've been meaning to call the company and have my bbq attached. 

I also buy slab wood (25$ per cord) a full year in advance so I have about 2 cords in stock.


----------



## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

A Kelly Kettle, set in a big baking pan to catch embers that fall out the air inlet of the base, would be both as safe as an open flame can be indoors, and take very little fuel (anything burnable, basically -- I've used paper rolled up to about the size of a roll of coins.


----------



## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

rjd25 said:


> You can build a rocket stove with 4 cinder blocks...


I seen them made with fire brick too. Not sure how long the cylinder block will hold up to the heat. Also the amount of wood the guy has in the stove is a lot. Not sure how efficient the blocks are in getting the rocket effect. But then again I never tried it.


----------



## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

If I were trying the cinder blocks, I'd line the fire chamber with heavy duty aluminum foil, or thin aluminum sheeting if I had it. It wouldn't hold forever, but should help your heat go where you want instead of where you don't want.


----------



## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Spice said:


> A Kelly Kettle, set in a big baking pan to catch embers that fall out the air inlet of the base, would be both as safe as an open flame can be indoors, and take very little fuel (anything burnable, basically -- I've used paper rolled up to about the size of a roll of coins.


I would be careful using it indoors. Carbon monoxide is a killer!


----------



## ARDon (Feb 27, 2015)

regular wood BBQ'er is what I plan on, or my wood stove when the weather is cold. My farm holds quite a bit of hardwood woods. Wood wont be a problem for the wife & I.


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

In my area, wood for cooking fires is kind of a scare commodity. Fortunately the sun is pretty intense most of the year and I am ultimately hoping to be able to use solar oven for 95% of my cooking. While I might have a problem with cooking odors escaping, I don't think I have to worry about telltale smoke.


----------



## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

ARDon said:


> regular wood BBQ'er is what I plan on, or my wood stove when the weather is cold. My farm holds quite a bit of hardwood woods. Wood wont be a problem for the wife & I.


I didn't include rural areas in my discussion because of the amount of wood available to them. One thing the rural areas folks might want to consider is when you use your wood supply in items like wood BBQ's and wood stoves. It takes such a large amount of wood to do the same thing. You still have to maintain or harvest your wood supply. And that's a lot of energy and time you could use to do something else to ensure your survival. Not to mentation the smoke they give off. Where rocket type stoves use very little wood due to their efficiency and very little or no smoke. I understand during winter your wood stove is doing two things but if your area is like mine that's only 3 to 4 months a year. And if you are like most that heat and cook with wood you spend a lot of time and energy in the summer and fall getting your winter wood supply.


----------



## ARDon (Feb 27, 2015)

not a fan of rocket stoves, never was & most likely never will. This is were I see things differently, as a old timer prepper. The smell of burning wood no matter how large or small the fire smell is, its alway appearent. Theirs no way out of ceratin things we do in prepping try to cover up or hide that will give our location or lead someone to us, no guarantee. Those are the chances we have to take. Nothing will be easy nor 100% sercure for us, we have too much against us, that will be the part of a preppers life in post SHTF times, will I live for another day? or will I die? Trying to find or come up with the perfect situation in prepping whether you are pre SHTF or post SHTF times?, you'll pull your hair out. Their is only so much you can do.
Tennessee you have no idea what your saying about your comment. I'm sorry but your clueless on "me" as a whole, where my farm is located or what I have accumulated as a prepper for way over 20 yrs. I never talk openly about what I have or even my BOL, so please do not cast aspersions or speculations. W/O facts about some one your directing to, you could come up wrong. No disrepect to you.


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Propane BBQers? Wood fires? that won't last the first year in an urban environment and people will die in house fires and from asphyxiation. If you live in a small city of say, 40000, how long would twenty acres of trees last?

Folks who are living in urban and suburban areas are at a distict diadvantage. Most don't even have room to grow a decent garden for food and livestock is generally out of the question just for the sake of room to have them. Any resources that you have in "your area" are shared with everyone around you. Shelter will be a prime concern because fires will consume a lot of area when there is no one to put them out or water to waste on putting them out. Water is hard to come by in the urban setting and you are going to be competing with everyone around you for what little is available. Food is even a bigger problem in the urban setting. With the grocery stores empty all you have left are pidgeons and rats after you eat the stray dogs and cats.

I am glad that I left Seattle when I did. It would be impossible to survive a long term event in a city with over 500000 people in it. Even where I lived and the great neighbors I had there we would have banned together but long term survival is unlikely. It was a six hour drive (without traffic) to get to our bug out location but that is what I would have had to do to ensure my survival and the survival of my family. Where I am now is a much better place to shelter in without competing with uncounted hordes of people for the basics. My advice to the urbanites and suburban types is to get out now and get to a better place.


----------



## Carp614 (Jan 21, 2013)

Small pile of wood and three 20 pound propane tanks. We'll be taking them with us when we leave...


----------



## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

ARDon said:


> Tennessee you have no idea what your saying about your comment. I'm sorry but your clueless on "me" as a whole, where my farm is located or what I have accumulated as a prepper for way over 20 yrs. I never talk openly about what I have or even my BOL, so please do not cast aspersions or speculations. W/O facts about some one your directing to, you could come up wrong. No disrepect to you.


Can you please elaborate on what aspersions I made about you that got your panties in a knot. And don't fool your self ARDon you have told a lot about yourself in your 133 post.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Carp614 said:


> Small pile of wood and three 20 pound propane tanks. We'll be taking them with us when we leave...


Are you serious?


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

PaulS said:


> Propane BBQers? Wood fires? that won't last the first year in an urban environment and people will die in house fires and from asphyxiation. If you live in a small city of say, 40000, how long would twenty acres of trees last?
> 
> Folks who are living in urban and suburban areas are at a distict diadvantage. Most don't even have room to grow a decent garden for food and livestock is generally out of the question just for the sake of room to have them. Any resources that you have in "your area" are shared with everyone around you. Shelter will be a prime concern because fires will consume a lot of area when there is no one to put them out or water to waste on putting them out. Water is hard to come by in the urban setting and you are going to be competing with everyone around you for what little is available. Food is even a bigger problem in the urban setting. With the grocery stores empty all you have left are pidgeons and rats after you eat the stray dogs and cats.
> 
> I am glad that I left Seattle when I did. It would be impossible to survive a long term event in a city with over 500000 people in it. Even where I lived and the great neighbors I had there we would have banned together but long term survival is unlikely. It was a six hour drive (without traffic) to get to our bug out location but that is what I would have had to do to ensure my survival and the survival of my family. Where I am now is a much better place to shelter in without competing with uncounted hordes of people for the basics. My advice to the urbanites and suburban types is to get out now and get to a better place.


While this is my ultimate goal. Easier said then done.


----------



## PatriotFlamethrower (Jan 10, 2015)

Let's face it, ANYBODY who lives in an area where they are dependent on public utilities.............natural gas, water, electricity, etc..................are SCREWED.

City dwellers don't have a ghost of a chance of surviving beyond a week or two.

The country folks will maintain some semblance of order, and shoot those who don't behave themselves.


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> Let's face it, ANYBODY who lives in an area where they are dependent on public utilities.............natural gas, water, electricity, etc..................are SCREWED.
> 
> City dwellers don't have a ghost of a chance of surviving beyond a week or two.
> 
> The country folks will maintain some semblance of order, and shoot those who don't behave themselves.


I disagree. Living in the city is a disadvantage, but to suggest they can't go beyond two weeks is not right. Hurricane Sandy knocked out utilities for about 10 days through most of the metro NY area. There were no significant deaths, though there was a lot of property damage. Someone who preps could obviously go a lot longer. Do I recommend living in NYC? Absolutely not, but I think a prepper in NYC could easily go several months in a disaster.


----------



## ARDon (Feb 27, 2015)

easy Tenn, I'm further from upset. I said with NO disrepect. You shouldnt cast aspersions or speculate. I've been doing this prepper thing for along time. I've accumulated sources of fuel in the yrs of doing this. No matter how you look at it what size fire you have, the smell of smoke will linger. In my yrs I have store over 10 100lb bottles of propane & bought a propane transfer system & scale so I could use my 100lb bottles at a fueling station for some of the 25 & 30lb bottles I gathered over the yrs. I could get into alot more but I wont. Then you have been prepping as long as I have (sorry folks I aint boasting just making a point) & you live this life style as long as I & the wife have you do learn a few thing along acquire thing to your prep's. I have a very good size farm with plenty of firewood available. I cut wood all yr round, and privilaged to have wood splitter. I have about 8 to 11 cords of wood cut & stacked in a very large pole barn. When spring starts I'll cut more and split more. As for me sharing: yes I share ideas & suggestion what I've learned over the years, along what I've learned from others. But I havent disclosed anything about what I have "until now" which is a pin prick of what I have. So please dont think I have my "panties in a knot" as you say....I dont, it takes alot more than what you say to put in a uneased mood. I'm simply saying Tenn many folks just assume one thing but they have no idea of the experience of others & what they have in their prep's. It's nothing disrespectful to you all and it wasnt to began with. Just pointing something out.


----------



## PatriotFlamethrower (Jan 10, 2015)

Diver said:


> I disagree. Living in the city is a disadvantage, but to suggest they can't go beyond two weeks is not right. Hurricane Sandy knocked out utilities for about 10 days through most of the metro NY area. There were no significant deaths, though there was a lot of property damage. Someone who preps could obviously go a lot longer. Do I recommend living in NYC? Absolutely not, but I think a prepper in NYC could easily go several months in a disaster.


Where is a New Yorker going to get their water from? The Hudson River? Where is the "disaster relief" going to come from in a society that is plunging into anarchy?

Where in the hell in New York City is a "prepper" going to store all of the food and water and other supplies necessary to survive for "several months"?

Where are millions of thirsty and hungry people going to go to survive? Perhaps they'll overrun the preppers who are hunkered down in their apartments?

If Sandy proved anything, it proved that people, in general, are almost completely dependent on government and non-government relief agencies for their survival.

In the meantime, those of us with wells and septic systems and emergency power and food and shelter and WEAPONS will be just fine.

My biggest concern is that the idiots who might try to overrun our home and steal our stuff, are going to end up bleeding all over our yard and porch and deck and, worst of all, possibly spill their blood on our nice wood floors! What a MESS that will be to clean up!


----------



## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

ARDon said:


> easy Tenn, I'm further from upset. I said with NO disrepect. You shouldnt cast aspersions or speculate. I've been doing this prepper thing for along time. I've accumulated sources of fuel in the yrs of doing this. No matter how you look at it what size fire you have, the smell of smoke will linger. In my yrs I have store over 10 100lb bottles of propane & bought a propane transfer system & scale so I could use my 100lb bottles at a fueling station for some of the 25 & 30lb bottles I gathered over the yrs. I could get into alot more but I wont. Then you have been prepping as long as I have (sorry folks I aint boasting just making a point) & you live this life style as long as I & the wife have you do learn a few thing along acquire thing to your prep's. I have a very good size farm with plenty of firewood available. I cut wood all yr round, and privilaged to have wood splitter. I have about 8 to 11 cords of wood cut & stacked in a very large pole barn. When spring starts I'll cut more and split more. As for me sharing: yes I share ideas & suggestion what I've learned over the years, along what I've learned from others. But I havent disclosed anything about what I have "until now" which is a pin prick of what I have. So please dont think I have my "panties in a knot" as you say....I dont, it takes alot more than what you say to put in a uneased mood. I'm simply saying Tenn many folks just assume one thing but they have no idea of the experience of others & what they have in their prep's. It's nothing disrespectful to you all and it wasnt to began with. Just pointing something out.


I agree ARdon, I shouldn't cast aspersions your way, but I don't know what aspersions I said. It's hard to apologize when I don't know what I said that offended you. The only speculations I made was that you lived in AR and your winters may be like winters in TN. And if you are like most people who use wood for heating and cooking you have to cut more to resupply. So what point am I clueless! Where are the aspersions?

I'm confused on the aspersions! I will apologize if you let me know when I attacked your reputation or integrity. But you are right I'm clueless at what point I did this.


----------



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> Where is a New Yorker going to get their water from? The Hudson River? Where is the "disaster relief" going to come from in a society that is plunging into anarchy?
> 
> Where in the hell in New York City is a "prepper" going to store all of the food and water and other supplies necessary to survive for "several months"?
> 
> ...


As a matter of fact, the water systems in NY are gravity fed, so water is an advantage to NYC until a main fails. (Some mains have been in continuous operation for over 100 years.) The need for pumps only applies if you are sufficiently high up in a high rise building and most of those buildings have emergency power. With a filter the Hudson and East Rivers are also a source of water. Storage is one of the challenges a NY dweller would have to get over but it is possible.

The millions of people don't know who the preppers are, so they aren't going to be overrunning anything, particularly since most are unarmed. How many are going to want to trek up umpteen flights of stairs to then get in a gun fight with a prepper? It wouldn't be my first choice.

The government was busy restoring infrastructure after Sandy. It did nothing for the average person, so while folks did need government to reopen roads, etc. they were just fine while waiting. The news was filled with chaos from a few coastal neighborhoods that were flooded, but for most it was simply loss of utilities and mobility.

I don't think being in NYC is a wise choice for a prepper, but if the average non-prepper NYC resident went through Sandy with it just being an inconvenience, then a prepper ought to be able to go longer.

I think a lot of people have formed opinions of urban situations based on Katrina, but New Orleans is below sea level and when the levees broke you had a pretty unique form of disaster. I don't think you can take that experience and conclude that urbanites can't last more then two weeks without utilities.

Preppers tend to assume that things will degenerate very fast, but it really depends on the situation. Sandy and Katrina were totally different experiences and those were both Hurricanes.


----------



## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

ARDon said:


> not a fan of rocket stoves, never was & most likely never will. This is were I see things differently, as a old timer prepper. The smell of burning wood no matter how large or small the fire smell is, its alway appearent. Theirs no way out of ceratin things we do in prepping try to cover up or hide that will give our location or lead someone to us, no guarantee. Those are the chances we have to take. Nothing will be easy nor 100% sercure for us, we have too much against us, that will be the part of a preppers life in post SHTF times, will I live for another day? or will I die? Trying to find or come up with the perfect situation in prepping whether you are pre SHTF or post SHTF times?, you'll pull your hair out. Their is only so much you can do.
> Tennessee you have no idea what your saying about your comment. I'm sorry but your clueless on "me" as a whole, where my farm is located or what I have accumulated as a prepper for way over 20 yrs. I never talk openly about what I have or even my BOL, so please do not cast aspersions or speculations. W/O facts about some one your directing to, you could come up wrong. No disrepect to you.


On the point of burning wood....

I can personally small grass (clippings) been burnt kms away, wood roughly the same when the wind is right...

Fire season us coming up again in the USA... Spot the smell... The point made about it is extremely valid and worth thinking about


----------



## ARDon (Feb 27, 2015)

Tennessee said:


> I agree ARdon, I shouldn't cast aspersions your way, but I don't know what aspersions I said. It's hard to apologize when I don't know what I said that offended you. The only speculations I made was that you lived in AR and your winters may be like winters in TN. And if you are like most people who use wood for heating and cooking you have to cut more to resupply. So what point am I clueless! Where are the aspersions?
> 
> I'm confused on the aspersions! I will apologize if you let me know when I attacked your reputation or integrity. But you are right I'm clueless at what point I did this.


I wasnt offended, and truly theirs no need to apologize, just pointing out that sometime we all might think we know exactly what were saying in a post whether we are agreeing or disagreeing, when we really dont. Everything is cool really


----------



## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

The solution is trade.
Some will sit and mope but others will hit the ground running as in any time. I am set up in a rural location but I intend to immediately get busy with things like making charcoal and simple trade items.
Being near water would mean fishing or small boat transport. Near salt water salt can be produced as a trade item along with fish or even seaweed.
I have figured out and tooled up for trade items I can produce from local materials and urban/suburban survivalists can do the same.
However the first step is to establish and maintain order and set up some kind of public transport.
Of course there will be go-getters who build steamboats and are hauling freight inland and back - the entrepreneurs who will flourish and build, seeing opportunity where others see only woe.
As long as looting and mass mayhem are kept under control trade is possible, and there are a lot of items city dwellers can produce that rural people can't.
Those who can't adjust will find themselves residents of a government refugee camp.


----------



## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

paraquack said:


> In my area, wood for cooking fires is kind of a scare commodity. Fortunately the sun is pretty intense most of the year and I am ultimately hoping to be able to use solar oven for 95% of my cooking. While I might have a problem with cooking odors escaping, I don't think I have to worry about telltale smoke.


These types of stoves do very well on Guayule, Brittlebush, Baja fairy duster, and Palo Verdi trees which are all over AZ not to mention cow paddies. The tumble weed size sticks is all you need. You might think about one for those cloudy days.


----------

