# Serval Mesh



## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Serval Mesh is a app for Android and iPhone that allows phones to connect without the cellular network being up. It is intended specifically for disaster scenarios. It is still experimental, but available now. Has anyone tried it? Anyone interested?


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Huh?
How?


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

It's EMP/solar flare proof??


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Chipper said:


> It's EMP/solar flare proof??


Not unless your Android phone is.  However, if some other disaster takes out the cell network this could be really handy. (BTW: Everything seems to crash the cell network.)

To tell the truth, I don't know much about it. I intend to learn about it and was wondering if anyone else may be into it already. Check it out in Play store if you have an android phone.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Cool. Keep us posted.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Just looked it up. Sounds interesting. You should be able to zoom in on these screen shots for info about the app. Sure needs alot of permissions.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Anyone know the range of these phones with no cell towers up? Can they relay calls through other phones for long distance calls?


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## Ian (Dec 12, 2014)

Id like to do a test run on this, to see how well it works, call quality, etc can anyone interested in helping pm me.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

every time I see the title, I keep thinking of cervical mesh :hopelessness:


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

sideKahr said:


> Anyone know the range of these phones with no cell towers up? Can they relay calls through other phones for long distance calls?


The distance with a cell phone is limited to a couple hundred yards, but the call will make hops from phone to phone to connect to your destination, so density of users matters. In addition, they are working on something called a Serval Mesh extender which is a piece of hardware that will extend the range by a factor of 10 or more. While that range may seem very limited, imagine a disaster scenario where this exists on every Android or iOS phone. As I understand it you could even transmit the software from phone to phone after the disaster occurred so the longer a disaster continued, the more the mesh would extend as people passed it amongst themselves.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Ian said:


> Id like to do a test run on this, to see how well it works, call quality, etc can anyone interested in helping pm me.


I intend to run a test with a family member. I haven't done it yet. You basically need two phones in close proximity each having the app.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Cell phones run about 1/4 watt. With out a tower being elevated to receive that signal and pass it down thru the hard wire phone lines, I'd give the range of a cell phone outdoors maybe a few blocks or so, better if you have line of sight as on a lake. Think of the power output (1/2 watt)of a FRS radio and the distance the get with a real antenna that isn't buried in the cell phone.


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## cobracon2 (Oct 27, 2014)

I've had this software on my phone for a while now. But here is the problem, your phone has to be rooted in order to use the adhoc feature. In layman terms, for the signal to go from phone to phone(mesh) over a greater distances, you need super user funtions. Otherwise it is just one phone acting as master and all others connect to that phone. Basically not much distance. This adhoc feature is turned off by all phone carriers I believe.

Some positives are that you can share the app with other phones that do not have it installed, great for shtf. You can text, share files (great for scouting) and make calls within the network. Very nice piece of software. If anyone has questions about it, just ask.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

cobracon2 said:


> I've had this software on my phone for a while now. But here is the problem, your phone has to be rooted in order to use the adhoc feature. In layman terms, for the signal to go from phone to phone(mesh) over a greater distances, you need super user funtions. Otherwise it is just one phone acting as master and all others connect to that phone. Basically not much distance. This adhoc feature is turned off by all phone carriers I believe.
> 
> Some positives are that you can share the app with other phones that do not have it installed, great for shtf. You can text, share files (great for scouting) and make calls within the network. Very nice piece of software. If anyone has questions about it, just ask.


I've installed it on two phones, without the Adhoc feature, but with a WiFi router available that both phones can see. The phones do not see each other despite sitting together on a table. Is the problem that at least one phone must have the Adhoc feature for the mesh to work or is there some other possibility? There was a warning abour installing the Adhoc feature. Did you experience any I'll effects from installing it?


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## cobracon2 (Oct 27, 2014)

No I didn't but my main phone is rooted. Before it was rooted I was able to make contact between phones with a router in the middle. Maybe your router needs the port that the programs uses forwarded. Look up port forwarding on youtube, there is many guides to help out. If that does not work then try reinstalling the program on both phones. For phone names I just gave it the same phone number as the phone.

The range I was getting using an indoor router was maybe an apartment complex away, the range is very short with the router indoors and the phones outside. To get the best range the router needs to be outside.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

This is an interesting idea, but it's use might be severely limited.
In a situation where the cell network if offline, could this be a viable alternative?
Without rooting your phone, the range is quite limited, it relies on a router being active, and all connecting devices must be able to connect to the router.
With the cell network down, it would most likely be caused by a grid down event. If it can knock out the cell network, it has likely knocked out the electric grid.
What does that mean for this mesh system? Well, it would require backup power to run the router. Not impossible, by any stretch, but you must now have a dedicated system set up just to use your phones.
Somebody would have to have a fully opened router sitting on a battery in your immediate area, and you'd only be able to communicate with folks in that area.
Most handheld radios will get a better range than this.
The only advantage I could see over hand radios is the ability to add the functionality to other phones from one seed phone. Not everyone would have a radio at hand, but most would be walking around with useless phones in their pockets.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

It is a radio transmitter, same as a ht but its output is lower say 1 watt to 1/4 watt. a 1 watt may get 1 mile or so depending on density. high energy travels better through solid objects than lowerbands until you reach ground penetration rates.


Ideally you want to be as high up as possible when transmitting. LOS works by what you can see you can transmit to. Its common sense, where are your transmission towers and where do you get reception. However the reception on phones isn't as good as the towers nor is the altitude.


I read about these systems in china a year or so ago as well as the dods version. There are a variety of variants.


Bandwidth is leased so using certain applications may be a violation on FCC regs. In the us more or less you have bands like CB, WiFi and Bluetooth to draw on. Of these WiFi is the bbest option for phones. technically people could easily set up their own tower ipx/sip system for local communications not unlike a ham repeater. The problem is the gov selling the frequencies to corporations and other private interests.


Problem is congestion. With newer mimo routing this is getting better.


These sorts of apps are better than nothing. They are not unlike for and other dark nets. Cellphones are trancievers capable of acting as repeaters. Hell they have launched smart phones into space to act as micro satalites.



There is a thread in coms on this.



Its not clear cut, ideally you want to be high and outside with lots of juice on your transmitter.



A better scenario in disaster is stinging up phone onto the towers and skyscrappers, not unlike all the WiFi towers and cell towers.


The same principles apply.


They would be usable for tactical coms but you should think about setting up a mesh network with towers in a disaster situation. That might mean taking some cells out of a phone store or off dead bodies to use as building repeaters.



I wouldn't see it as dependable beyond 200 yards, in doors maybe 50 yards.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

cobracon2 said:


> No I didn't but my main phone is rooted. Before it was rooted I was able to make contact between phones with a router in the middle. Maybe your router needs the port that the programs uses forwarded. Look up port forwarding on youtube, there is many guides to help out. If that does not work then try reinstalling the program on both phones. For phone names I just gave it the same phone number as the phone.
> 
> The range I was getting using an indoor router was maybe an apartment complex away, the range is very short with the router indoors and the phones outside. To get the best range the router needs to be outside.


So as I understand it, you had no problem from rooting the phone and if I root one of the phones I don't require the router. If I don't want to root a phone, then Should check port forwarding on my router.

Do I have that right?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Re: other comments, it seems to me the utility is in a long term scenario where the cell network is out, possibly grid down but with enough generating capacity around for people to recharge a cell phone. The longer the outage, the more the technology could spread.

You could seed an area in advance with CERT teams and others interested in disaster response already set up. A couple weeks into a disaster, a group like that could spread the technology to a lot of otherwise useless phones.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Will2 said:


> ...
> 
> Its not clear cut, ideally you want to be high and outside with lots of juice on your transmitter...


I really have no idea what any of this really means...BUT...

If anyone finds me high and outside with lots of juice on my transmitter, please do the right thing and get me home safely to Mrs Slippy. I do not want to hurt myself or others.

Thanks


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

It sounds like phone-to-phone communication would not be traceable by LEOs, because cell towers aren't being used. There are some implications here I'd rather not go into.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

sideKahr said:


> It sounds like phone-to-phone communication would not be traceable by LEOs, because cell towers aren't being used. There are some implications here I'd rather not go into.


It seems to me they would simply need to join the mesh network.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

sideKahr said:


> It sounds like phone-to-phone communication would not be traceable by LEOs, because cell towers aren't being used. There are some implications here I'd rather not go into.


Not true. You can still fox hunt and map WiFi. Each device has its own signature that can be mapped. A helicopter or plane can be flown in the area to map the oscillation to determine pathway of a mesh. The tech exists but you regular Leo doesn't have this tech.
It doesn't mean it isn't possible.

It is not terribly complex with active communications.

An entire mesh can be mapped in real time to show the pulse not unlike solar mapping.

Its all able to be physically modelled to determine locality of transmission through reverse mapping.

The funny thing is WiFi is usable to map physical movement like radar... So the mesh itself can be used to track peoples movements.

The same principle as use of cell towers to track stealth aircraft.

Police arnt using this tech yet in the line though

Some leos are equipped with equipment to crack WiFi networks though, including interception of signals.

FBI also uses tech to tunnel into phones. In general most phones have backdoors for eavesdropping as long as they have battery power.

There is also the ability to remotely power a device for that purpose. Many phones have emergency alerting also.

Tech is just stupid if you are trying to avoid detection by a hostile government or well equipped private entities.

On theplus side the tech is useful for disaster recover as triggering emergency alerting can give rescue workers an idea of where to dig for instance is people got trapped with a powered phone.

Tunneling meanwhile can be used to scan areas for possible sounds of life,

Cellphones can be used in a lot of emergency response scanrios including detecting hiding in an area

This is just one mechanism, there are others.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1098821


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

@ Will2. I am humbled by your superior knowledge of modern communications, sir.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Had any of you any experience with the squad com system. This sounds like a cheap civilian version of that, one phone was tied to a good transmitter that could cover a lot of distance.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

This is an app using standard cell phones. The purpose of the app is simply to allow phone to phone communications without the benefit of an operating cell tower network.

The motivation for development wa disaster scenarios where the cell network is down, but individual phones are still functional. That strikes me as including instances I have experienced such as 9/11, NY blackout, and Hurricane Sandy.

If there are other benefits, great, but that strikes me as sufficient to want to get it working.


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## cobracon2 (Oct 27, 2014)

Diver said:


> So as I understand it, you had no problem from rooting the phone and if I root one of the phones I don't require the router. If I don't want to root a phone, then Should check port forwarding on my router.
> 
> Do I have that right?


All phones would need to rooted to do adhoc networking (peer to peer). So what you do is find some older android phones that are easy to root. This way you could set them aside until needed. Just another way to be prepared in the future. Besides android phones are a dime a dozen. Just ask friends if they have any old phones laying around. You'd be surprised at how many you can get for free.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

cobracon2 said:


> All phones would need to rooted to do adhoc networking (peer to peer). So what you do is find some older android phones that are easy to root. This way you could set them aside until needed. Just another way to be prepared in the future. Besides android phones are a dime a dozen. Just ask friends if they have any old phones laying around. You'd be surprised at how many you can get for free.


Unfortunately, I have been a Blackberry fan until now so I don't have any old Android phones. Would such a phone require a SIM card to operate? Is the rooting incompatible with normal phone usage or just risky of bricking the phone?


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Diver said:


> Unfortunately, I have been a Blackberry fan until now so I don't have any old Android phones. Would such a phone require a SIM card to operate? Is the rooting incompatible with normal phone usage or just risky of bricking the phone?


Just a heads up, serval isn't just phones but any android device with WiFi capabilities. Tablets, all in one computers, laptops, routers that have capability, cars with WiFi, etc...

Here is a bone
http://www.shareable.net/blog/how-to-set-up-an-open-mesh-network-in-your-neighborhood

Check your local laws on max WiFi signal strength
http://lifehacker.com/178132/hack-attack-turn-your-60-router-into-a-600-router


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Will2 said:


> Just a heads up, serval isn't just phones but any android device with WiFi capabilities. Tablets, all in one computers, laptops, routers that have capability, cars with WiFi, etc...
> 
> Here is a bone
> How To Set Up An Open Mesh Network in Your Neighborhood - Shareable
> ...


This is real helpful. Would you expect the serval app to work between two non-rooted phones over the Open Mesh routers spoken of in the first article? If so, that would be my solution to get my first two phones working without risking the phones.


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## cobracon2 (Oct 27, 2014)

In the above example they are using routers to form the mesh network. That would require routers using battery power. I rooted my phone and have no problems, But do so at your own risk. There is a chance that you can brick the phone. I found that the lg motion made for MetroPcs is very easy to root. I used a youtube video to do mine. Also yes you need a sim card in there, but most old used phones still have them.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

cobracon2 said:


> In the above example they are using routers to form the mesh network. That would require routers using battery power. I rooted my phone and have no problems, But do so at your own risk. There is a chance that you can brick the phone. I found that the lg motion made for MetroPcs is very easy to root. I used a youtube video to do mine. Also yes you need a sim card in there, but most old used phones still have them.


Thanks again. Sounds like I have 4 options so far:
An Open Mesh router
An existing router with port forwarding enabled.
An old phone with Sim card.
Take my chances with a currently in use card.

The implication is that any of these could also be used to widen the mesh in actual use.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

cobracon2 said:


> In the above example they are using routers to form the mesh network. That would require routers using battery power. I rooted my phone and have no problems, But do so at your own risk. There is a chance that you can brick the phone. I found that the lg motion made for MetroPcs is very easy to root. I used a youtube video to do mine. Also yes you need a sim card in there, but most old used phones still have them.


Why would a SIM be necessary if you aren't using the carrier's tower?
This communication is solely over Wifi.


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## cobracon2 (Oct 27, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> Why would a SIM be necessary if you aren't using the carrier's tower?
> This communication is solely over Wifi.


Most phones will not function without a sim card. Tablets would be another option.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Well, I might be making progress. In my test between my phone and my daughter's phone the phones could not seem to see each other. However, her boyfriend also downloaded the app and the two of them were able to connect. Unfortunately, I was not there to witness what they did differently from the first test. Looks like we have what we need here, but I'll need to see what is going on when her boyfriend is around in order to figure out what is different. Assuming I can replicate that, we'll have a three phone network and can then add more units from there.

If I can figure this out, I'll post what the issue was and how we got around it.


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## cobracon2 (Oct 27, 2014)

Sounds good. I'm sure that would help a lot of others out. Maybe even make a newbie guide in a new thread.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

cobracon2 said:


> Sounds good. I'm sure that would help a lot of others out. Maybe even make a newbie guide in a new thread.


That would be useful. I found one user guide from 2011 and it is way out of date vs. The current software.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Success! I just successfully tested with my daughter and her boyfriend. We had a three way mesh going, albeit we were all in the same room. We're going to continue testing and get some more people with the software installed, try it from various locations, etc. I am also going to try to get the local CERT group to install it.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Will2 said:


> Not true. You can still fox hunt and map WiFi. Each device has its own signature that can be mapped. A helicopter or plane can be flown in the area to map the oscillation to determine pathway of a mesh. The tech exists but you regular Leo doesn't have this tech.
> It doesn't mean it isn't possible.
> 
> It is not terribly complex with active communications.
> ...


It's official, if SHTF I'm crushing my phone with a rock


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> It's official, if SHTF I'm crushing my phone with a rock


Well, if you are trying to hide that is a good idea. If you're trying to place a call, you might find the phone handy, even if the cell network is down.

You could also pull the battery and place the phone in an ammo can.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

cobracon2 said:


> Most phones will not function without a sim card. Tablets would be another option.


That's not held true for any phone I've ever owned.
There is a constant reminder in the notification panel about a missing sim, all functions are fully enabled otherwise.
Just couldn't make a normal call.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Here is an update for those interested. We are getting more people set up locally. The key to connecting is when you try to connect, to make sure "Enable Services" is checked. Otherwise it is pretty easy. We found that texting works better than calling, probably due to bandwidth requirements.

It is not available for iPhones as I stated previously. The iPhone seems to be popular around here so that is slowing the spread among my circle of friends. My intention is to get is distributed amongst the CERT team locally.

The Serval project is working on a "mesh extender" to increase the range. They are also working on connecting to UHF networks, which I suspect would link to HSMM MESH, i.e. a HAM based Mesh network.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

You still need a Access point or and other phone that have the app..

and remember you have to be able to get on the Access point...ie know the password..

frankly - this will never get off the ground... it would require everybody to turn off security on their AP's and for people to have the app and to be within range of an APP...\

I would give this a D- and 12 months from now it will be forgotten...

think about this... after a tornado goes through or a blizzard takes down power.... it will not work


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

bandwidth correct me if I am wrong but that is a term used to sell people a slice of something that in infinite. kind of like time maybe.

this thread reminds me of the we are here to pump you up commercial that comes on for the 30 minutes I watch tv called the news.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Bandwidth is never really "infinite". Bandwidth is governed by the frequency at which you can operate and the amount of information a given gateway can handle. For cell phones bandwidth is normally regulated by the towers ability to push signals and can get bogged down and even stopped if too many people initiate calls at the same time - like after an emergency like a tornado or earthquake. Without the towers your bandwidth is limited by your phones capacity(which ios really low compared to the tower.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> You still need a Access point or and other phone that have the app..
> 
> and remember you have to be able to get on the Access point...ie know the password..
> 
> ...


The app can be loaded after the network goes down by transmitting it phone to phone, so all you need are a few people with it pre-disaster, then it can spread post-disaster. You are correct about needing to be in range of someone else, but in densely populated areas, such as where I live, that isn't a problem. As for power, all you need is access to a place to charge up from time to time. During Sandy people did that with generators, cars, and by visiting places that did have power, e.g. shelters.

Meanwhile they had the CERT team running flyers door to door to get information to people due to lack of communications. I believe our whole CERT team will go for this.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Medic33 said:


> bandwidth correct me if I am wrong but that is a term used to sell people a slice of something that in infinite. kind of like time maybe.
> 
> this thread reminds me of the we are here to pump you up commercial that comes on for the 30 minutes I watch tv called the news.


I think PaulS gave an excellent answer on the issue of bandwidth. What I was trying to convey is simply that in testing I had more success with texting than voice.

As for this sounding like a commercial, it's free.


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