# Bringing a gun to a knife fight...



## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

No secret, I daily carry a Kimber UC2 with several spare magazines. The world has changed, this is prudent.

But I also carry things like a TOPS C.A.T fixed blade, and I do for good reasons.

For one, I believe in training, and I started in fencing, I learned the stances, parries and feints of blade fighting. In observing that Italian fencing fought in a circle while French fencing fought in a lane--but the moves were similar--I adapted the moves I had learned. For example, when a right handed fencer faces a left handed opponent, he steps to the far side of the left lane. This takes his chest out of range. Circling an opponent ala Italia does the same thing.

But moves with blades are pretty much the same be they with a sword, knife, or tanto. First lesson, "take the cut that is given you."

Now how does this apply to firearms. Well, over four decades I've learned that while enthusiasts can hit beer cans at tremendous distances, Joe Lunchbox is lucky if he can buy the right ammunition to fit his firearm. They'll buy a box of 7mm08 for a 7mm Mag, that sort of thing.

Ideally, no one should get closer to you than 21 feet, this would apply on the street or in a parking lot. It doesn't work in crowded malls. If challenged, I can have the C.A.T. out and the first slashes made before LeRoy Brown has his Glock clearing leather. In fact, my defensive knives are polished as I would for gyuto knives--in other words, knives used to slice beef.

In fact, properly used, a knife can do more damage than a pistol. In using Escrima moves, Massas Ayoob stated that some coroners could not tell an Escrima thrust from a wound by a 12 gauge slug.

Yeah, it takes some work. You have to practice. You have to read. You not only have to buy the right knife, but it must be properly polished. Is it worth it? You bet! I prepared a TOPS C.U.T. 4.0, which I believe is the most lethal contact weapon ever invented.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

During WW2 the Filipino resistance left much of the Japs they caught cut up like sushi.

They had to use woven baskets to bring back what they found for incineration.

Hey, the animals were hungry, and it all was prepared for them.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Nice thread @The Tourist.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

SOCOM42 said:


> During WW2 the Filipino resistance left much of the Japs they caught cut up like sushi.


I agree. Edged tools have been underrated for centuries.

And many of us forget that not all people want or need a firearm. For example, my wife carried an OTF knife with her for two years after we got our CCW provision in our state. She finally found an SW 642 she liked with the lighter Hornady Critical Defense .38 SPLs.

Then again, you can't swing a cat in my home without knocking over a knife...


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

Good thread, I agree with the sentiments, ever since Cain shoved a slightly-sharpened jawbone into Abel, edged weaponry has been the staple of combat for millennia (yes - I know some hairless apes were smashing each other in the face with rocks, bludgeoning weapons work too)

In my humble opinion, a lot of the detraction to edged weaponry comes from internet-spawned Bravado that is the byproduct of this post-9/11 & social media disinformation fueled era we find ourselves in, in trained hands (like yours, never thought to get into fencing), a knife WILL jack you up - and in untrained hands (me), it doesn't help.

Small anecdote, I mentioned it last year, I had pulled a knife on an enemy combatant on one of my vacations working with Friendly Government Agencies, clearing small huts with a belt-fed wasn't very smart, and some wiry Amazonian jumped on me, I managed to get the blade shoved into his ribs and stuck, didn't stop him and good thing you don't solo clear a room (contrary to TV/movies) and I had a team mate help me out...other than pissing myself (I did piss myself), I learned that just like an un-trained bubba with a gun, being untrained/scared with a knife doesn't help

Other than as a last-ditch/purposeful weapon - edged weapons are still utilitarian in nature, whether it is cutting cable/wire/seat belts/cans/meat - a knife is still a crucial part of anyone's kit, and they aren't regulated (well, not heavily) like guns - even a 2 inch blade can even the odds whether you are single mother, or going on a long-distance run/jog 

I do agree that edged weapon wounds can be pretty grievous, again, in the right hands with the right weapon - I am not an expert by any means but having sharpened steel shoved into the chest cavity of someone (provided you don't put it in their ribs /shame) will at least cause exsanguination and it will hurt, more surface area and you don't have to worry about your knife going through the guy and hitting something behind him

Just my $0.02


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

The 9/11 muzslime bastards used box cutters to kill people on those flights, a one inch blade!

Any blade in the hands of a trained person can and will be deadly, unless you give them a load of OO buck at 50 feet.

As I have said before, took some lesson from an expert, not my game in any way, that was 55 years ago.

As a side note, he had some nasty scars from fights with muzslime guerrillas on Mindanao.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

I'm too old to grapple, . . . to slow to use a blade, . . . hip and knee says I cannot run, . . . 

1911 to the rescue. 

Knives and swords have their place, . . . but not everyone has the physical dexterity to use one.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

Blades have a place but I'm with Dwight on the 1911!


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Since I have not been trained in knife fighting, if forced to I will resort to knife combat.
A stout fixed blade jammed into the intestines and cranked wildly around would cause shock by blood loss much faster than a series of cuts.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Since I have not been trained in knife fighting, if forced to I will resort to knife combat.
> A stout fixed blade jammed into the intestines and cranked wildly around would cause shock by blood loss much faster than a series of cuts.


That's kind of like the Escrima philosophy.

That dictates that as you face your enemy (assuming you're right handed) you turn the edge to your right. You lunge at any piece of humanity presented to you, then once inside, you rotate the knife 180 degrees. After finishing that rotation, you slash your way out of the wound.

I've always felt that the movement was a nod to speed over precision. You want the attacker mortally wounded and on his back as fast as possible.

BTW, if you're offered a thigh, this move works on femoral arteries.


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## ridgerunnersurvival (Jul 17, 2017)

Let me make two things clear: 1) training with a blade is extremely important and 2) An angry/scares housewife wildly swinging a 12" Chefs knife will most likely kill the person they are trying to kill, even if they are trained. I have been training, and fightng with edged tools or mock edged tools my whole life, sometimes in full contact scenarios with hundreds, sometimes over a thousand people on the field.. and what I have learned is that training is important, but what is more important is to PRACTICE those skills in as close to real world situations as you can. Get training that involves full contact sparring and find outlets to apply it. On any given day, a new guy can hand you your ass and all the training in the world does nothing for you if you have not matched it against someone elses. PS fight with as many people as you can. learning to fight one person is like taking only one route to work every day, it works out great until road construction..


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Worth watching if you haven't seen before.
Belt Buckle Knife - Buckle Knife Video

I use a knife at least once every day and this is the handiest blade I've ever had. Not my favorite blade shape and I prefer no serrations but it's just so handy.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

ridgerunnersurvival said:


> Let me make two things clear: 1) training with a blade is extremely important and 2) *An angry/scares housewife wildly swinging a 12" Chefs knife* will most likely kill the person they are trying to kill, even if they are trained. ..............


I'm glad I was not sipping my coffee when I read this, . . . simply because I know of this happening.

The husband was a jealous fellow, . . . was badgering his wife, . . . slapped her and bloodied her nose, . . . while she was slicing tomatoes with the aforementioned 12" Chefs knife.

He managed to jump back just enough to not be disembowled, . . . but took the door handle off the front screen door during his exit, . . . with her in pursuit, . . .

It's still good for a laugh, . . . thankfully nobody got hurt bad, . . . thanks for bringing up the memory..............

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Knives have thier uses. They do take a lot of practice - considerably more so than say a pistol. Also, Knife Vs Knife - you are most likely going to get hurt big time. 

That said the most dangerous situations when I worked at the beach dealt with pay day fridays, latino celebrations, beer, girl friends and insults. Seems everyone of the males carried a large razor sharp folder and would fight at the drop of an insult to their lady folk


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

This is how I handle a guy with a blade.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Oh, I must admit, I laughed, too. It's a good thing he had that last bullet or it would have been a really short movie...


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I agree that a knife is a great tool and good defensive weapon, and in the hands of a trained person, a good offensive weapon.

If I can pull out a knife, I can draw a gun. Shooting from less than optimal positions takes practice. One thing I know is that in a knife fight, your gonna get cut. I don't like being cut, so I avoid knife fights, I avoid knife fights by being alert and carrying open, so folks know I'm bringing a gun to any fight.

I Don't quite like this guys dick derringer style of carry, but the results are good.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Now, at one point in time I was highly trained in fighting with a knife, an M6 bayonet attached to the end of an M14.
And using the whole rifle as a weapon, not simply the pointy end.
I guess a lighter, shorter, plastic and aluminum rifle such as the M16 would not be as effective as a 10 pound M1 or M14.
But that's of no consideration since I do not own an AR.
Yes, I do have bayonets for both my M1 Garand, and Springfield M1A. 

"What is the Spirit Of The Bayonet?"


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

One issue I had that many others did not was that Wisconsin was one of the last states to get the CCW provision. You carried a legal knife or went unarmed.

A knife is also a good fending weapon. Even if you cut an attacker minimally, he'll back up far enough for you to pull a decent and secure draw. Now the hunter becomes the hunted. He's cut, and suddenly facing a Kimber.

Since you never know just how the guy is going to attack, or how trained he is, I prefer the tanto shape of the TOPS C.A.T.

It's good for slashing and piercing, and I have mine on the inside of my jacket, and it draws cleanly.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Knives have their place in both your defensive and survival strategy. I have always had knives, even got tangled up in a fight when I was a kid in Chicago. As mentioned they are utilitarian so I have several good lock blades and fixed blades, machetes, Etc. Fixed blade and lock blade with each GHB and BOB of course but I carry a good lock blade with me most of the time as well. 

These days I am bringing a gun to the fight. I am not as agile as I once was nor even proficient enough with a knife to attempt, except as a last resort, a knife fight. If it comes down to the point of a knife I am probably in deep shit already.


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## mukwah (Jul 18, 2017)

The surprise element of the knife is key for me. In a self defense last ditch, life or death situation not letting the BG know I have one until I am ready to implement it is key. Also knowing where key arteries and body organs are is important. Not a pretty picture but it could save your or yours life.

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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> now, at one point in time i was highly trained in fighting with a knife, an m6 bayonet attached to the end of an m14. Yes, i do have bayonets for both my m1 garand, and springfield m1a.
> 
> "what is the spirit of the bayonet?"


To KILL!


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

SOCOM42 said:


> to kill!


Makes the grass grow.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

When I was in the army, we spent hours upon hours bayonet training.

Our training was based on Korea and WW2 tactics, and we used M1 Garands in the process.

ALL of our DI's were Korean war vets, and the war was only 7 years past.

Today I am farrrr to old to even think about it, I carry a handgun or two.

A friend now passed, an Iwo Jima survivor with a Silver Star with V and cluster from his actions there,

kept an M1 Garand, bayonet and a bandoleer next to his bed and a 1911 under the pillow until the day he died.

My father in law earned a silver star on the canal for action in the battle of the Tenaru. 

In the night action, he killed six more Japs (known) with his K-bar knife after running out of ammo for his BAR.

He spent the next year in a Hawaiian military hospital recovering, then DI'd until he was shipped out to Okinawa 

where he got shot, and again hospitalized. 

I carry a Gerber folder, strictly as a utility piece.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Be sure you thank him. I was born at the start of the Korean War, and lived as a free man my entire life because of veterans.

A bunch of my knives wound up in "the sand box." To my knowledge, all the owners came home.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> When I was in the army, we spent hours upon hours bayonet training.
> 
> Our training was based on Korea and WW2 tactics, and we used M1 Garands in the process.
> 
> ...


Yes, there is a big difference between mere "knife fighting" on a city street and knife combat.

I do carry a 4" or 5" fixed blade sheath knife on my belt, because you never know when you might get overrun in between reloads.

I will die a happy man if I'm never in another fight for the rest of my life.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> Be sure you thank him. I was born at the start of the Korean War, and lived as a free man my entire life because of veterans.
> 
> A bunch of my knives wound up in "the sand box." To my knowledge, all the owners came home.


A little too late, in law is also gone.

A lot of my product was used in the sandbox, even made the cover of USA Today.


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## ridgerunnersurvival (Jul 17, 2017)

hawgrider said:


> This is how I handle a guy with a blade.


Funny story about that scene that I read somewhere. Harrison Ford was down with the flu when that scene was supposed to be shot, in the scene he was supposed to do something interesting with the whip but Harrison was so darned sick he just drew his revolver and shot the guy, who, excellent improv actor that he was, "died". The scene was so good they kept it!


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## ridgerunnersurvival (Jul 17, 2017)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I will die a happy man if I'm never in another fight for the rest of my life.


That sir is the right attitude. 
"If I need to Im gonna, but I really dont wanna!" ' unknown


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

For some reason this post reminds me of years ago when I was in the army. I was a APC driver for a recon platoon. Being a driver, I was issued a .45 auto as my personal weapon. We had lots of different weapons at our disposal, I remember one of my NCOs telling us (other drivers) that if it got to the point we were having to defend ourselves against the enemy with our 45s, we were in very deep do do. 
I guess the point I am trying to make is, seems to me there is a hierarchy of weapons at one's disposal, and beyond that there are different situations that may perhaps move one weapon from one point on the list to a higher stature. But in general, there are rifles, shotguns, pistols, then knifes and of course, when you start adding in longbows, compounds, crossbows, atomic bombs.....ect it gets more complicated. 
There is also the argument that within a certain distance, the knife has the advantage over the handgun, be that as it may, I'll take the pistol.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

The issue for me is that I've used a knife all of my life, I even make my living with them. Got my first one in 1958.

I do have a CCW permit, but "carrying" a pistol for me is only a six year old habit. I learned to shoot handguns in 1974, but those were mostly large caliber revolvers used for metallic silhouette. I didn't own my own automatic until 1978.

My real education with a carry gun began in 1983. Wisconsin allowed you to carry at work if your boss permitted. I carried the small Detonics since mine was a white collar job. IPSC style shooting situations came much later in my life.

While I did have full-size Colt .45 ACPs and 10mm Autos, I liked the smaller ones, like the Officers ACP--which Terry Tussey had to rebuild three times. He finally called me and said, _"It's a wall-hanger now, you got your money out of it..."_

When we got our CCW provision, I knew what I wanted--a small 1911 in a Bianchi holster. So for the last 6 years I've carried a Kimber UC2 in a Bianchi.

But truth be told, and within "social distances," I think I'd still take down the aggressor with a knife. After all, _I know the polisher_, and nobody survives being sliced with an implement several times sharper than a Samurai sword...


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## mukwah (Jul 18, 2017)

Just curious, who is the "polisher"? I have a passion for "sharp" edges.

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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Machetes are nice.
And, in Florida, it is perfectly acceptable to have one in your truck or car.
It is also legal here to actually wear one on your belt, but I prefer not to attract that much attention. 
Which is the same reason the KaBar USMC knife stays in my door panel and not on my belt.
Bayonets are useful, as well.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

mukwah said:


> Just curious, who is the "polisher"? I have a passion for "sharp" edges.


Well, first things first. Do you consider yourself a wealthy man?


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## mukwah (Jul 18, 2017)

The Tourist said:


> Well, first things first. Do you consider yourself a wealthy man?


Wealthy in experience, knowledge, and common sense. Comfortable financially.

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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

PM me about what kind of knife you have.


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## mukwah (Jul 18, 2017)

I have many knives. Blades of all shapes, sizes, and composition as I have collected blades for many years. I think I understand now your term as"the polisher" as yourself, and polishing as final step in putting an edge on a blade. I think we're on the same page now.

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## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

I carry a tanto prodigy with me on hikes or on trips. Otherwise I've got my foldable gerber in my pocket.

Ever thought about carrying a butchers glove for a knife fight? You'd probably scare some would be knifers just by having the chain mail glove on your left hand or right hand. Gives you an advantage of being able to grab the blade of a knife in a fight.

I have never been in a knife fight thank god. I'm watching how to defend against one now and this one actually made me want to learn how to defend against one. It also made me want to buy body armor for going to the city after dark....




The video has strong language so if that offends you don't watch it.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Because of Photo_Bucket, the pictures of knives I polished and posted here are gone.

However, there is a knife column at KimberTalk, the last segment on the board. I can take pictures of knives and post them directly to KimberTalk. Check in over there and take a look at some decent edges and repairs.

Double click on the pictures--they get bigger.

http://www.kimbertalk.com/forums/at...86t-i-needed-another-one-surprised-me-002.jpg


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