# torture



## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Since one of the many scenarios survivalists and preppers face is the Big Brother scenario, I thought Id bring up a topic that is in the news today.

So the senate intelligence committee published a report that says that the CIA used far harsher interrogation methods than they had revealed (or was permitted by the current law). The report also alleges that the torture revealed nothing that could not have been gained through other methods (it states that in many cases the FBI had already gleaned the real data before the CIA got hold of them.)

The CIA denies that torture was innefective, but does not deny the other allegations. 

John McCain says torture doesnt work and prisoners just tell them whatever it takes to stop the pain.

But this committee is Dianne Feinstein and her chums. She recently alleged to have caught the CIA hacking her office network. If you are a gun owner then you know of her for other reasons.

So where do you weigh in on enhanced interrogation methods? Keep in mind that these laws are color blind, what can be used on Albert Kaida can also be used on you and yorn. In fact, historically the types of law are eventually inflicted on the people at large as the situation degrades.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I could care less what the CIA did to extract information from enemy combatants, terrorists and religious zealots bent on my destruction.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I would think mental manipulation would achieve far greater results than physical pain.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Hmmm -- a bit of water on the face, loud music, sleep deprevation --- and we are supposed to feel empathy for these terrorist monsters? Notice how the MSM know longer shows the images of some of the 3000 jumping to their deaths off the twin towers? There are 3000 families that no longer have a daddy or a mommy or son or daughter because of these vermin. 

I tell you what -- put me in charge, and they'll get more than just a bit of water down their throat. I would drill holes in their front teeth. Pull out fingernails. Electrodes to their balls. Start dipping them in vats of hydrochloric acid. I am just getting started on what I would do. We are facing an enemy the likes of which the world has never seen before. We better get serious about how to fight back.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The question in my mind isn't what you would like to do to them as vengeance, but what is the best technique for extracting information.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

In Vietnam, a small detachment of Military Intelligence interrogators was attached to my company for administrative purposes. The Americans ran the show, and South Vietnamese were the actual interrogators. The ARVNs did the actual "enhanced techniques", so that we could maintain that the US didn't torture people.
Their area was adjacent to our motor pool, and I witnessed some of their "techniques" and let me tell you, water boarding (as I understand it) is relatively benign. Comparatively speaking.


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

So what does Ralph think?


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

I don't understand how anybody thinks that our government actually using torture is acceptable, especially when we know our government thinks that WE are subversives.

Wake up, people. This isn't President Eisenhower here. This isn't Harry Truman. 

It's a very, very small leap from torturing "enemy combatants" (which, by the way, violates our law and international treaties we signed) and torturing "subversive elements in country".

Folks, by their definition, WE ARE those subversive elements! 

WAKE THE HELL UP.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

It all depends on the definition of torture.
Sure, breaking bones, lit bamboo slivers driven under fingernails, fit the definition of torture.
But what about sleep depravation? Or being held in a windowless cell with the light on 24 hours a day? Being in a cell with Justin Bieber music pumped in 24/7?

So, I ask, what is the definition of torture?


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Denton said:


> The question in my mind isn't what you would like to do to them as vengeance, but what is the best technique for extracting information.


Well I can only speak for myself -- once they started drilling into my teeth, I would last maybe 2 seconds before I gave up the information they seek.

As for waterboarding -- I was a champion swimmer in my yute -- I know how to hold my breath. They could do that on me all day.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Being in a cell with Justin Bieber music pumped in 24/7?


Hell it could be worse. It could be Barry Manilow ................. just sayin


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## Kahlan (Sep 16, 2014)

I couldn't resist...


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

All I have to say is Myself,I could probably persuade just about anybody to talk with my method.:stick:


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

DerBiermeister said:


> Well I can only speak for myself -- once they started drilling into my teeth, I would last maybe 2 seconds before I gave up the information they seek.
> 
> As for waterboarding -- I was a champion swimmer in my yute -- I know how to hold my breath. They could do that on me all day.


I'll tell them the first thing that jumps into my mind.

Hopefully, I will be thinking clearly enough to blurt out my first wife's address and declare her to be the ringleader of whatever they are looking for.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Being in a cell with Justin Bieber music pumped in 24/7?


Lord have mercy upon the immortal souls of anybody subjected to this... that's beyond wrong, that's plain evil...


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Kahlan said:


> I couldn't resist...


You could have tried much, much harder to resist.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Denton said:


> I'll tell them the first thing that jumps into my mind.
> 
> Hopefully, I will be thinking clearly enough to blurt out my first wife's address and declare her to be the ringleader of whatever they are looking for.


The interrogators aren't stupid -- they know when they're being fed a line of bs vs. the truth. Just takes a few more holes in the teeth to get to the real stuff.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

DerBiermeister said:


> The interrogators aren't stupid -- they know when they're being fed a line of bs vs. the truth. Just takes a few more holes in the teeth to get to the real stuff.


OK, I'll be really, really convincing when stating my first wife is the ringleader.

Or, maybe I can make a deal with them. One hand washes the other?


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Denton said:


> I would think mental manipulation would achieve far greater results than physical pain.


Oh do you? Please give an example, Sir.


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

Denton said:


> OK, I'll be really, really convincing when stating my first wife is the ringleader.
> 
> Or, maybe I can make a deal with them. One hand washes the other?


LOL,Denton,You are a shop steward,I bet you can make anybody believe anything!.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

MI.oldguy said:


> LOL,Denton,You are a shop steward,I bet you can make anybody believe anything!.


It has benefited a few people, yes.

On the flip side, a good interrogator does the same thing.

I worked at a PD where the chief himself was the best interrogator I'd ever seen. He would be used to interrogate certain suspects. The rest of us would be in the monitor room with popcorn, donuts and coffee, watching in awe as he got whatever information was needed.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Let's get some context here people! These are Muslims we are talking about in this instance. What is wrong with first interrogating them for information, then torturing them for fun? This does not have to be a binary decision.


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## shootbrownelk (Jul 9, 2014)

Inor said:


> Let's get some context here people! These are Muslims we are talking about in this instance. What is wrong with first interrogating them for information, then torturing them for fun? This does not have to be a binary decision.


 I agree, I say do whatever you feel like doing to a muslim, phisically or mentally. After all, they chop American heads off. No mercy to muslims. And the good ones are room temperature. John McCain is a senile old bhutwhole who needs to be put in a rest home IMO.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

To me torture is periodically watching the twin towers coming down on TV and knowing that over 3000 men and women are falling to their deaths and being crushed under the thousands of tons of rubble. To me, torture is watching the hundreds if not thousands of men and women EMS responders searching for any survivors. To me, torture was watching the funerals and memorials of all the men and women who died that that day, September 11, 2001. But the real torture is listening and watching these "Progressive" morons who want me and this country to empathize with those who murdered and will continue to murder all these people. This is the real torture. I didn't lose any one close to me yet, but odds are it will happen. I can think of a lot of real nifty, painful ways to simulate these Muslims into giving us any info they might have. If this makes me cruel, well, I guess I've learned from the best teachers. The Muslims themselves.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Inor said:


> Let's get some context here people! These are Muslims we are talking about in this instance. What is wrong with first interrogating them for information, then torturing them for fun? This does not have to be a binary decision.


Your hate of Muslims is starting to sound eerily similar to their hate of Christians.
How far are you from saying...Kill them all!!?


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## machinejjh (Nov 13, 2012)

Denton said:


> I would think mental manipulation would achieve far greater results than physical pain.


 Break the body, and it heals quick. Break the spirit, and it heals slowly.


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## Danm (Nov 15, 2014)

machinejjh said:


> Break the body, and it heals quick. Break the spirit, and it heals slowly.


break the mind the spirit and body are your clay to mold.


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## Danm (Nov 15, 2014)

Inor said:


> Let's get some context here people! These are Muslims we are talking about in this instance. What is wrong with first interrogating them for information, then torturing them for fun? This does not have to be a binary decision.


I know a guy from across the road from me who is Muslim he is a Zikris Muslim from India they believe diffrently from hearing him rant about and i quote "Those dirty animals make me ashamed of being Islamic I wish some one would nuke the whole bunch" end quote. so i dont know personally that all Muslims are savages.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Mish said:


> Your hate of Muslims is starting to sound eerily similar to their hate of Christians.
> How far are you from saying...Kill them all!!?


Let's see.... Muslims ARE killing anyone who is not a Muslim NOW. Muslims are raping women and children NOW. Muslims are cutting off the heads of women and children NOW. Muslims are taught NOW that it is not only okay to do those things, but it is their duty. Muslims are taught NOW that any contract or promise that they make with a non-believer is non-binding and that they can break it whenever they please. They are taught NOW that if they are not in power they should be friendly with non-believers and try to fit in until such a time as when they are ready to follow some of the first steps mentioned.

Call me a hater if you like, but try to argue that what I have said is not true. I may hate Muslims, but I don't think anyone who is civilized could even come close to emulating them unless they are bat crap crazy or are pure evil.


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## Murphy (Oct 9, 2014)

Torture? Do we think the Muslims would not or have not tortured us?

Do we think if the Muslims captured an american they would politely ask for information or try to beat it out of us?

Lets not forget the torture of 9/11, people burned alive, people jumping to their death because the heat was unbearable, ETC...

If we need to play loud music or keep someone awake for information to possibly save american lives, so be it

Lets not forget they have Declared war on us
What a [email protected]%king Joke


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Mish said:


> Your hate of Muslims is starting to sound eerily similar to their hate of Christians.
> How far are you from saying...Kill them all!!?


I, for one, am not in favor of "killing them all."

However, I also understand how that system works.

For example, Danm has a neighbor who is not pleased with the "savages" who are conducting themselves in accordance with Muhammad's dictates. Problem is, it is also expected of Muslims living in dar al harb (house of war; any place not under the control of Islam) to lie and appear peaceful and accepting. This is called _taqiyya_. Furthermore, while it is not acceptable for a Muslim to be a true friend of a non-Muslim, it is perfectly acceptable to pretend to be, as this allows further inroads to be built into dar al harb.

All of this gives non-Muslims reason to be very distrustful of all Muslims.

Still, there are those people who are "Muslim in name only" who know less about Islam than I do. They have no more desire to kill or convert you than Obama wants to protect the constitution. This makes it hard to make the generalized, "Kill'em all" statement, I think.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Denton said:


> I, for one, am not in favor of "killing them all."
> 
> *Still, there are those people who are "Muslim in name only" who know less about Islam than I do. They have no more desire to kill or convert you than Obama wants to protect the constitution.* This makes it hard to make the generalized, "Kill'em all" statement, I think.


Shouldn't that make it hard to generalize at all? There are extremist in every religion.


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## RoyLanchester (Dec 10, 2014)

Mish said:


> There are extremist in every religion.


You'd be hard pressed to find any Extremist Christians! The most extreme thing anything of my fellow parishioners have done is get a little too tipsy at a cookout.

Muslims on the other hand preach violence. I cannot condone or agree with such practice.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> It all depends on the definition of torture.
> Sure, breaking bones, lit bamboo slivers driven under fingernails, fit the definition of torture.
> But what about sleep depravation? Or being held in a windowless cell with the light on 24 hours a day? Being in a cell with Justin Bieber music pumped in 24/7?
> 
> So, I ask, what is the definition of torture?


No...No...No not Justin Bieber! No...I...I...... will tell you anything...Anything you want to know! PLEASE! Not Justin Bieber!


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

RoyLanchester said:


> You'd be hard pressed to find any Extremist Christians!


You mean like the ones that bomb abortion clinics?!  Or should I lump them together with all Christians?


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Waterboarding is one of the most effective ways of getting information out of someone. Here is an explanation for those who do not know what it is.



> Waterboarding induces panic and suffering by forcing a person to inhale water into the sinuses, pharynx, larynx, and trachea.
> 
> The head is tilted back and water is poured into the upturned mouth or nose. Eventually the subject cannot exhale more air or cough out more water, the lungs are collapsed, and the sinuses and trachea are filled with water. The subject is drowned from the inside, filling with water from the head down. The chest and lungs are kept higher than the head so that coughing draws water up and into the lungs while avoiding total suffocation. "His sufferings must be that of a man who is drowning, but cannot drown."
> 
> ...


Source: What Waterboarding Is | waterboarding.org

Personally, I am ok with it being used to save American lives and foil the plans of the enemy. Of course our interrogators could also go medieval on a terrorist with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch, but I think waterboarding is a better method for the reasons stated above.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> Waterboarding is one of the most effective ways of getting information out of someone. Here is an explanation for those who do not know what it is.
> 
> Source: What Waterboarding Is | waterboarding.org
> 
> Personally, I am ok with it being used to save American lives and foil the plans of the enemy. Of course our interrogators could also go medieval on a terrorist with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch, but I think waterboarding is a better method for the reasons stated above.


But the head of the CIA did admit to Leslie Stall (spelling?) on 60 Minutes a while back that they were torturing KSM by giving him Ensure (the dietary supplement). THAT is over the line! Waterboarding somebody with Ensure is cruel! It is just too chocolatey! :shock:


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Mish said:


> Shouldn't that make it hard to generalize at all? There are extremist in every religion.


It has often been said that only 10% of muslims are extremists. 
Since there are over one BILLION muslims in the world, how many would 10% be? I'm not good at math, help me out here..............
Wouldn't that be 100 million?


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> I don't understand how anybody thinks that our government actually using torture is acceptable, especially when we know our government thinks that WE are subversives.
> 
> Wake up, people. This isn't President Eisenhower here. This isn't Harry Truman.
> 
> ...


What it were your wife that had been taken hostage and they were going to behead her in 12 hours on Al Jazera cable tv. What would you want us to do for her?

Not what you believe. Not what you feel in your heart the law allows. What would you want us to do?

Listen to Higgins 
j. higgins three days of the condor - Bing Videos

You'll want us to do what ever it takes to get her back and to hedouble hockey sticks with what happens to the bad guys.


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## RoyLanchester (Dec 10, 2014)

Mish said:


> You mean like the ones that bomb abortion clinics?!  Or should I lump them together with all Christians?


Those folks were obviously not true Christians. Lots of folks will say they follow the word of the Lord but instead follow a darker path.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

RoyLanchester said:


> Those folks were obviously not true Christians. Lots of folks will say they follow the word of the Lord but instead follow a darker path.


Really? Just ask one and he/she'll get that faraway stare in their eyes and swear on a stack of bibles they are in the lords crusade.

Course most sane people would think they're a few french fries short of a happy meal


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## RoyLanchester (Dec 10, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Really? Just ask one and he/she'll get that faraway stare in their eyes and swear on a stack of bibles they are in the lords crusade.
> 
> Course most sane people would think they're a few french fries short of a happy meal


And some crazy folks will tell you they are a chicken and can talk to cats!

My point is that just because someone says they are a true Christian doesn't mean they are. Folks that do terrible things like that are giving Chritians a bad name. They were crazy the day they were born.

The difference is the Christian faith isn't teaching people to go out and kill! That is what the Muslim religion does.


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## OctopusPrime (Dec 2, 2014)

There is a solution for these interrogations to be done without pain. you give me intelligence that leading to the capture or neutralizing of the enemy I reward you..reward is based on substance. If you give me your name I give you a soda pop. if you give me the correct locations of key players in ISIS I give you 1 million dollars for every name you give me that is of value. For ISIS leader and his generals I give you 50 million dollars, a new name, clean slate, and facial reconstructive surgery from the best surgeons in the world....If you end up not talking at all you meet the Creator. Maybe you get your virgins, but my bet is you roast in a lake of fire.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> What it were your wife that had been taken hostage and they were going to behead her in 12 hours on Al Jazera cable tv. What would you want us to do for her?
> 
> Not what you believe. Not what you feel in your heart the law allows. What would you want us to do?
> 
> ...


Ah, the old what if it was your wife gambit.

I do not believe that the ends justify the means.

I do not believe that morality is situational.

I am not willing to give up freedom for safety.

I am not willing to look the other way when my government breaks it's own laws.

I do not believe that America needs to be in the torture business.

I do not believe that America stands for torture.

There are risks in life. If you choose to go to the sandbox, you must realize that there are risks.

If you choose to work in tall buildings that have previously been attacked by religious nutbags, you must realize there are risks.

Yes, it sucks that all those innocent people were killed.

But is the answer to destroy everybody's freedom?

Is the answer the Patriot Act?

Is the answer the TSA?

Is the answer to militarize the police? To wiretap our lives?

Goodness, the Fourth Amendment has been all but obliterated because people have allowed their fear and their hatred to turn a blind eye on the federal government power grab...

Yes, terrorists do bad things... but the most damaging of all I think is making people forget that the ends do not justify the means, and that morality is not just "whatever we choose it to be out of convenience, for the moment"

They win when we become immoral, as a people... they win when they take us to their level, out of fear and rage.

No thanks. I'll keep the 4th Amendment, thank you very much. It's served us well up until we, as a nation, started ignoring it.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> I am not willing to look the other way when my government breaks it's own laws.
> 
> I do not believe that America needs to be in the torture business.
> 
> I do not believe that America stands for torture.


Agree. But what is your definition of torture?


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## shootbrownelk (Jul 9, 2014)

If a muslim reads and believes in the Koran, he is therefore impelled by his "religion?" to kill all "Infidels". That'd be you and me!
I don't see any Christians killing folks because they won't convert. I'm just one silly millimeter from "Kill them all". JMO


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## shootbrownelk (Jul 9, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> Agree. But what is your definition of torture?


 Cutting an innocent Americans head off with a knife, making someone dig their own grave beforehand.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Islam? Who cares? Other enemies? Who cares? The only reason to even bother is if it is a evolved human country that honors limits on other people's spy they catch. Geneva type thing - but do whatever to islam? Throw them to pigs if that makes em squeal


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Here is the definition



> 18 U.S. Code § 2340
> 
> (1) "torture" means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
> (2) "severe mental pain or suffering" means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from-
> ...


Im not sure if waterboarding qualifies as torture. The confusing part for me is the term "or other procedures"


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Mish said:


> You mean like the ones that bomb abortion clinics?!  Or should I lump them together with all Christians?


Give me a break. How many abortion clinics have ever been bombed? Maybe TWO over many many decades. That is a straw man statement if I ever saw one.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Mish said:


> Shouldn't that make it hard to generalize at all? There are extremist in every religion.


The word extremist is misused in the context.

What makes one extreme? Abiding by the letter?

The usual junk about the abortionist bomber is just that. Junk. No Biblical justification. That is not extremism, but a total disconnect.

On the other hand, the exact same tactic in the name of Allah is in keeping with Muhammad's teaching.

This being the case, the argument is not logical.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Mish said:


> Your hate of Muslims is starting to sound eerily similar to their hate of Christians.
> How far are you from saying...Kill them all!!?


At this stage, I for one will not openly call for "killing them all". (But I am slowly getting there.) But I WILL admit to this bias -- I think 20% of Muslims are fanatical Islamofascists. I also believe that the other 80%, while outwardly do not partake in the violence, they inwardly wholeheartedly support the attacks on the western world. Yes of course, just like in any large sampling, there are outliers that go against the grain. For instance, FoxNews has one American Muslim as a "contributor" who always seems to make sense. One -- in all these years, he is the ONLY Muslim I have ever seen expressing genuine peace. To sum it up -- their silence is deafening.


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## Mule13 (Dec 30, 2012)

I didnt read all the replies, but my opinion on torture is this: If it saves 1 American soldier,sailor,airman or Marine then its worth torturing evevery one of them. they are over there chopping Americans heads off with a knife! and we're concerned over breaking someones arm? or water boarding? I am 100% for torturing them to gain info to save our troops.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Mule13 said:


> I didnt read all the replies, but my opinion on torture is this: If it saves 1 American soldier,sailor,airman or Marine then its worth torturing evevery one of them. they are over there chopping Americans heads off with a knife! and we're concerned over breaking someones arm? or water boarding? I am 100% for torturing them to gain info to save our troops.


Agreed.

I also find it interesting that the State dept. won't release Hillery Dillery's records from her time in the State Dept. while at the same time the criminals in charge decided this report should be released. Why on earth this report ever saw the light of day is beyond me. But it's treason of the highest order.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

DerBiermeister said:


> Give me a break. How many abortion clinics have ever been bombed? Maybe TWO over many many decades. That is a straw man statement if I ever saw one.


I agree. There's a difference between a couple of "so-called Christian" nuts and what we see with really violent religions like Islam. It's not just Islam that has been radically militant in recent years, more people died from militant Shinto than militant Islam over the last 100 years, the whole "Rape of Nanking" thing, the Bataan Death March, countless millions of Chinese. Radical militant religions have existed throughout time. Christianity as practiced in the US is not one of them.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Mule13 said:


> I didnt read all the replies, but my opinion on torture is this: If it saves 1 American soldier,sailor,airman or Marine then its worth torturing evevery one of them. they are over there chopping Americans heads off with a knife! and we're concerned over breaking someones arm? or water boarding? I am 100% for torturing them to gain info to save our troops.


That's fine, as long as nobody ever decides you are one of "them".

I for one do not trust our government enough to let the Administration decide who "them" is.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Mish said:


> You mean like the ones that bomb abortion clinics?!  Or should I lump them together with all Christians?


How many abortion clinics have been bombed in the last ten years, and what happened to the people who did it when they are caught by Law Enforcement? Heard many Christian Churches preaching that abortion clinics should be bombed? If so, give the links to such information. Heard of any Christians dancing in the streets in celebration of said bombings? If so, please give the link to your source.

A little strange trying to compare what one "religion" teaches it's followers, go out and kill those who don't believe the same as they do, to the bat crap crazy radicals of another Religion that teaches it's followers to love on another. In one case the murderers are doing exacdtly what it's religion teaches them while another case someone does just the opposite of what their religion teaches them.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Muslim extremists want to cut your F%#&ing head off. The moderate muslims wnat the extremist muslims to cut your F%$#ing head off.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

All U.S. Navy Seals are Water Boarded as part of their training. And as for the whole sleep deprivation and exposure to cold temperatures, that sounds like my last Winter Field Exercise in Korea years ago. None of these poor tortured Muslim prisoners had electrodes attached to their testicles and had high voltages applied. Everything that was done to them has routinely been done to various members of the Military. One of the other complaints of Diane Feinstein is that prisoners are "humiliated". SHOCKING! Anyone who has ever been in the military, ever feel "humiliated" during basic/boot camp, or were your Drill Instructors concerned about not hurting your feelings and talked and treated you with respect and consideration? 

Here is something that is not even mentioned, NONE of these poor muslim fighters are from organizations that signed the Geneva Convention, and if asked they will say that THEY are not bound by it. NONE of them are fighters for any Government, and under the Geneva Convention, can be SHOT out of hand.


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

When it comes to interrogation of terrorist to protect the safety of the US, I say, they should have done worse. Whatever it takes. The end.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

csi-tech said:


> I could care less what the CIA did to extract information from enemy combatants, terrorists and religious zealots bent on my destruction.


I understand the thought but would remove the words >enemy combatants< and change it for >Unlawful combatant<

Seriously... People that are in uniform and fighting for their country should be treated better then non-uniformed spies/etc/// this has been the case for many many years


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## RoyLanchester (Dec 10, 2014)

sparkyprep said:


> When it comes to interrogation of terrorist to protect the safety of the US, I say, they should have done worse. Whatever it takes. The end.


This is accurate. Civility and decorum where thrown out the window in WW1. If the enemy is playing dirty, you play dirty. Do I think we should torture Americans? No. Do I think we should toture savages who are lopping the heads of civilians? Yes and then some.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Ah, the old what if it was your wife gambit.
> 
> I do not believe that the ends justify the means.
> 
> ...


Nice dodge. You didn't answer the question though.

I can tell you what I would do.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I have taught the Law of land warfare and the rights under the Hague and Geneva conventions to African's, Afghani's and Iraqis as well as other countries' soldiers over the years. The main point I would always stress is that the reasons you do not want to torture or kill prisoners are as follows. 1) you do not want the enemy to do the same to our soldiers who are captured. 2) you only encourage the enemy to fight harder or to the death to avoid being captured because they understand what will come once captured. And it discourages non- hardened enemy soldiers from surrendering and leaving the battlefield. 3) it alienates you from potential allies.

Having said that. Our enemy routinely kills any captives. They torture, they are ruthless and they only respond to strength and the see compassion, humanity, decency as weaknesses and it emboldens them to strike fear into the people by being even more brutal than the next guy. The Canadian terrorists must be even more brutal than the Syrian terrorist or he will become a victim himself.

I personally think and know that the right kinds of enhanced techniques are useful and do yield results. You never ask a question you don't already know the answer to or a least some portion of it and you know the enemy will lie...so its a process...not just waterboard, waterboard, answer, done. What those dumbass guards did in abugrab was not torture..it was some silly as fraternity acts by kids who are only supposed to be the "security guard" trying to play act as the Detective or super spook.They got punished, but they toook us down several notches. Diane Franken Fienstein has taken us down several more for political points.

It works....Against a civilized enemy...absolutely not....against these guys?....I say take no prisoners then you don;t have to worry about abugrab, Gitmo, enhanced interrogation, torture, miranda rights, US courts and trials. I say as soon as we understand the greatest kindness we can do for them is martyr them. Then maybe the world will understand that we are actually being compassionate by getting as many of these guys to allah as fast as we can. They want to die for their cause...we want to kill them for their cause...It's a damned win win to me.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

RoyLanchester said:


> Those folks were obviously not true Christians. Lots of folks will say they follow the word of the Lord but instead follow a darker path.


Really?!! Is that the argument that we are going to play?? If they did bad things, they aren't TRUE Christians?!! Bahahahaha



Denton said:


> The word extremist is misused in the context.
> 
> What makes one extreme? Abiding by the letter?
> The usual junk about the abortionist bomber is just that. Junk. No Biblical justification. That is not extremism, but a total disconnect.
> ...


Are we going to fight over what extremist means?! lol NO, we're not!! You're cute!!
Again, religious groups have all ranges of faith to their religion. The interpretation is up to the individual. Some read into things too far . (Abortion Clinics)
Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


rice paddy daddy said:


> It has often been said that only 10% of muslims are extremists.
> Since there are over one BILLION muslims in the world, how many would 10% be? I'm not good at math, help me out here..............
> Wouldn't that be 100 million?


So you want me to hate entire group of people based on a small percentage that might be batshit crazy? NOPE!
I'm not great at math either but I'm sure not going to base a whole group of people on the minority. I believe we should judge people on an individual basis not guilty by association.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I don't hate all muslims...I hate all terrorists, those that support terrorists, those who tolerate terrorists, and those who hate America....SO that may only be 4/5th of them...or less..It;s their choice of whether I hate them or not. Them being a muslim makes them more likely to fall into the above catagories...but I let them decide for themselves whether to make me hate them.


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## A J (Oct 16, 2014)

Old SF Guy said:


> I have taught the Law of land warfare and the rights under the Hague and Geneva conventions to African's, Afghani's and Iraqis as well as other countries' soldiers over the years. The main point I would always stress is that the reasons you do not want to torture or kill prisoners are as follows. 1) you do not want the enemy to do the same to our soldiers who are captured. 2) you only encourage the enemy to fight harder or to the death to avoid being captured because they understand what will come once captured. And it discourages non- hardened enemy soldiers from surrendering and leaving the battlefield. 3) it alienates you from potential allies.
> 
> Having said that. Our enemy routinely kills any captives. They torture, they are ruthless and they only respond to strength and the see compassion, humanity, decency as weaknesses and it emboldens them to strike fear into the people by being even more brutal than the next guy. The Canadian terrorists must be even more brutal than the Syrian terrorist or he will become a victim himself.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^ I wish we had a like*100 button!!!! :bow:

AJ


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Since one of the many scenarios survivalists and preppers face is the Big Brother scenario, I thought Id bring up a topic that is in the news today.
> 
> So the senate intelligence committee published a report that says that the CIA used far harsher interrogation methods than they had revealed (or was permitted by the current law). The report also alleges that the torture revealed nothing that could not have been gained through other methods (it states that in many cases the FBI had already gleaned the real data before the CIA got hold of them.)
> 
> ...


My Uncle Johnnie taught us all the meaning of torture when he offered to pay a nickle for each hair a person could pull up by the roots from the top of their big toe. I earned a dime seems like. My goofy cousin pussed out on one nickle. It hurt he said, He was a light weight. He was a bad boy and still is.Last I checked.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

After being engaged in an active shooting with these idiots for almost 25 years, with the exception of a few quiet years in the middle, it seems to me that we are not going to take away their will to fight us. So, the only other way to win the peace is to take away their ability to fight us. That means we are going to have to increase the level and the scope of the violence that bring down on them significantly. 

If torturing terrorists is going to bring peace sooner, even 5 minutes sooner, then let's not stop at waterboarding. Let's draw and quarter the bastards and hang one part at each of the four points of the compass. If firebombing Medina and Mecca will draw them out of the shadows so they can be destroyed in the open, flame on boys!

Americans have been actively shooting in this fight for almost 25 years now - since Desert Storm. It seems clear to me the Muslims are not interested in fighting by 21st century "rules". They want to play by 7th century rules. So let's show them what 21st century American weapons feel like when employed by a 7th century mindset. 

In answer to an earlier question about "kill them all": Yes, until they are so beat down and battered they are unable to pose a threat to us for 3 or more generations.


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## A J (Oct 16, 2014)

Inor said:


> After being engaged in an active shooting with these idiots for almost 25 years, with the exception of a few quiet years in the middle, it seems to me that we are not going to take away their will to fight us. So, the only other way to win the peace is to take away their ability to fight us. That means we are going to have to increase the level and the scope of the violence that bring down on them significantly.
> 
> If torturing terrorists is going to bring peace sooner, even 5 minutes sooner, then let's not stop at waterboarding. Let's draw and quarter the bastards and hang one part at each of the four points of the compass. If firebombing Medina and Mecca will draw them out of the shadows so they can be destroyed in the open, flame on boys!
> 
> ...


More than 25 years. My dad had a firefight with them in the late 50's while he was in the military. Lucky for me, it was 3 vs 1 and dad won!

This crap has been going on since before Jefferson was president! (our entire history as a country!)

AJ


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

A J said:


> More than 25 years. My dad had a firefight with them in the late 50's while he was in the military. Lucky for me, it was 3 vs 1 and dad won!
> 
> This crap has been going on since before Jefferson was president! (our entire history as a country!)
> 
> AJ


True that. When I originally wrote it, I was thinking there was about a 25 year lull until Desert Shield/Desert Storm. But as I read your post, I remembered the Marine Barracks in Lebanon in in the 1980's, Gaddafi, etc. Regardless, it strengthens my point, not detracts from it. Thanks A J!


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Ok what ever you and Mrsinor has to say I am going to like it .Kindly dont make me read a lot of stuff. Thanks.


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

Turtle.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Inor said:


> After being engaged in an active shooting with these idiots for almost 25 years, with the exception of a few quiet years in the middle, it seems to me that we are not going to take away their will to fight us. So, the only other way to win the peace is to take away their ability to fight us. That means we are going to have to increase the level and the scope of the violence that bring down on them significantly.
> 
> If torturing terrorists is going to bring peace sooner, even 5 minutes sooner, then let's not stop at waterboarding. Let's draw and quarter the bastards and hang one part at each of the four points of the compass. If firebombing Medina and Mecca will draw them out of the shadows so they can be destroyed in the open, flame on boys!
> 
> ...


Oh believe me .......... how do I wish we could do it this way. But, unfortunately, it is a pipe dream. Even with a better man in the WH, a MUCH better man, we have lost the will to win -- not just in the WH, but also throughout Congress -- and I fear we will never again get it back. The test of course is coming. We will see another 9-11 type event, and that should be the straw that broke the camel's back, but it won't be. God I hate to be such a pessimist.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Ok.yes we need to know what yall are alleging and what kinda proof you got? This is sounding petty nebulous.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Mish said:


> Really?!! Is that the argument that we are going to play?? If they did bad things, they aren't TRUE Christians?!! Bahahahaha
> 
> Are we going to fight over what extremist means?! lol NO, we're not!! You're cute!!
> Again, religious groups have all ranges of faith to their religion. The interpretation is up to the individual. Some read into things too far . (Abortion Clinics)
> ...


The thing is that the "extemists" are those who actually follow the teachings of islam. The only ones who don't believe that they are REQUIRED by their faith to kill those who are not muslims, who don't believe that they are REQUIRED by their faith to lie and pretend to be friends with non-believers until they are powerful enough to take control, who don't believe that they are ENCOURAGED to enslave non-believer women and children, who don't believe that they are REQUIRED to treat ALL women as some type of property, are the muslims who really don't believe in islam, which means that they aren't muslims.

I have heard this bs about only 10% of muslims are extremists before. A muslim is considered an extremist only once they actively start taking part in violence. So tell me, what percentage of the U.S. population actively took part in WW2? I guess it was only the "extremist" U.S. citizens who wanted to stop the Germans and Japanese.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

I appreciate the civil conservation that we are having but I'm not going to change my mind. I fundamentally can't judge a whole group of people on what a few do. It's not how I'm built. 

"I call on you not to hate, because hate does not leave space for a person to be fair and it makes you blind and closes all doors of thinking."
-?????


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Yeah, in during WW2 no one should have hated that Nazis, because not ALL of the Nazis were bad people......


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## A J (Oct 16, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> Yeah, in during WW2 no one should have hated that Nazis, because not ALL of the Nazis were bad people......


I had a very good friend (recently deceased) that was 'drafted' into the German military, ended up in the German version of the Coast Guard during the war. 
Did his best to help the Jews/anti-German forces (to the point that he was able to immigrate to Canada, and then later to the US). He became a US Citizen and was a bigger 'patriot' for the US than just about anybody I've ever known.

When we fight a 'Country' in a declared war, things are different, Geneva convention, prisoner exchange etc etc etc.

This fight against Muslim extremists that are hell bent on killing/destruction and ZERO possibility of a peaceful conclusion to hostilities, requires different strategies AND tactics.

I have no problem with 'enhanced interrogation' / torture etc etc while fighting this war.

AJ


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## RoyLanchester (Dec 10, 2014)

Mish said:


> I appreciate the civil conservation that we are having but I'm not going to change my mind. I fundamentally can't judge a whole group of people on what a few do. It's not how I'm built.
> 
> "I call on you not to hate, because hate does not leave space for a person to be fair and it makes you blind and closes all doors of thinking."
> -?????


That's all well and good but the reality is they (muslims) judge all american/westerners as evil, end of story. They won't spare us the same way we'd spare them. They are killing civillians, just because they are westerners.

If you're playing a game and your opponent changes the rules in a way which gives them an advantage, you are going to lose unless you too follow those rules.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

MrsInor said:


> So what does Ralph think?


Like anyone my first instinct is to torture the living shite out of terrorists, especially those that kill women and children like BokoHarum, ISOL, and now AlQuaida (who just upped their game by executing an entire school.) Crush them, grind them, burn them.

But the protection against cruel and unusual punishment is not just some liberal ideal, it is a core philosophy of the United States of America. Not only was it a single digit ammendment, but we even spoke to it in the Declaration of Independance*. When we broke away from mother England, ending torture and debtors prison were top of our list. Personally i consider the US bill of rights as the second greatest document ever written (the greatest was written in stone, literally.) To me, the bill of rights is akin to scripture, and any violation is outright heresy.

The constitution and accompanying bill of rights are sacred gospel. If you allow the govt to ignore one ammendment, then whats to keep them from violating the others? You wanna keep your guns? Defend the bill of rights.

*technically the declaration of independance holds no legal value, but there are many who believe the philosophies laid out there are the absolute essence of all that is America. It was our first act as a nation, and the source of our odd name. I consider it a holy document, sacred and divine.


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## NavySEAL (Oct 16, 2014)

Santa was losing toys out the back door of his workshop......the guilty Elf needed a little convincing to fess up.


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

So we water boarded a few terrorists, whats the big deal?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

"John McCain says torture doesn't work and prisoners just tell them whatever it takes to stop the pain."
Then there is Dianne Feinstein. One of these people really know what they are talking about the other does not have a clue. You figure it out.
You don't want to know what others do on your behalf so you sleep well. And while you may preach one thing you secretly hope they keep doing it.
If you aren't stamped made in the USA the rights do not apply to you.


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## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

They did what was needed to be done its not for us to judge..They had and have a country to protect. As for the politicians releasing this, they are all Hypocrites they used the info gathered and then when the system isn't needed all off a sudden they get a conscience screw em...As for John Mcain he just needs to go to pasture with all the other rhinos...If i was the CIA i would start releasing every piece of dirt they have on these Hypocrites and lets see how really clean their conscience are..JMHO


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> "John McCain says torture doesn't work and prisoners just tell them whatever it takes to stop the pain."
> Then there is Dianne Feinstein. One of these people really know what they are talking about the other does not have a clue. You figure it out.
> You don't want to know what others do on your behalf so you sleep well. And while you may preach one thing you secretly hope they keep doing it.
> If you aren't stamped made in the USA the rights do not apply to you.


Actually Dianne Feinstein in the middle of this whole thing gives me pause. I do not trust that gun banning grandma, no, non, nine, nunca, nyet, not at all. In the 2nd ammendment arena she is an apostle of Sarah Brady, and a hypocrite. Back in the day when she was mayor of san fran she had a ccw permit (when it was practically impossible for ordinary citizens to get one) and was licenced for 2 pistols. One pistol she publicly turned in during a gun-crushing buyback...but no one knows whatever happened to the 2nd pistol. So either she's a hypocrite for owning a firearm, or she's a hypocrite for using the gun show loophole* to get rid of the pistol.

So i am not sure if i can really trust her report or if she was just banging the drum before reelection in 2 yrs. And what about those claims that the cia hacked her files? WTF?

*Its not a loophole, its the law!


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