# Facts About Guns



## RedLion

I am going to try to lump facts about guns and research into a single thread so that it is accessible to folks if interested.

I will start with


> John Lott Destroys Left's Go-To Gun Control Study





> Lankford's study has been referenced extensively by the left to show that the U.S. has more mass shootings than other countries. But according to Lott, the problem with the study is that it simply is not accurate.
> 
> On December 4, Breitbart News reported that Lott's CPRC found the U.S. is not even in the top 50 in the per capita frequency on the list of countries that witnessed mass shootings from 1998 to 2015. Lott's sources are accessible to those disagree with his findings.







https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/16/john-lott-destroys-lefts-gun-control-study/


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## RedLion

Some past postings....

*Armed Citizens Save Lives During Active Shooter Events *
Deemed to be "successful" in reducing the loss of life 94% of the time and actually stop the killer 75.8% of the time when they are present and take action.
And how many innocents have been harmed by armed citizens? ZERO!

https://www.concealedcarry.com/news..._XdB-qo33UyASUsaXJttvK94JDPNZfjglEbuJDLcJPkl0

*Again, More Guns Equals Lower Crime *
Another study from a surprising source that confirms that more guns in the hands of private law-abiding citizens equals less crime.

According to a study in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, which cites the Centers for Disease Control, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the United Nations International Study on Firearms Regulation, the more guns a nation has, the less criminal activity.

In other words, more firearms, less crime, concludes the virtually unpublicized research report by attorney Don B. Kates and Dr. Gary Mauser. But the key is firearms in the hands of private citizens.

https://www.beliefnet.com/news/articles/harvard-university-study-reveals-astonishing-link.aspx

*Overhwelming That Gun Control Does Not Work *
Those inconvenient facts again.

An analysis of thousands of gun control studies claims that just 63 of those studies found connections between more stringent gun control laws violent crime and suicide reductions.

The non-profit RAND corporation spent two years and $1 million on the analysis, searching for evidence of benefit from gun control policies. RAND's analysis looked to establish connections between gun policies and rates of homicide, suicide, self-defense gun use, hunting, and other categories. The vast majority of those categories went unaffected by legislation, however, according to NPR.

"Most of the effects that we were looking for evidence on, we didn't find any evidence," Andrew Morral, who lead the analysis.

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/02/studies-gun-control-policies-dont-work/
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy.html


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## RedLion

And more.....

*Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs *

Another good source of facts regarding guns, including 
guns save a little more than eight times what they "cost." 
and annual uses of guns in self defense being north of 1.5 million per year.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2...ive-gun-use-savings-dwarf-gun-violence-costs/

*" 92% of all gun related crimes are committed with a stolen gun"*

I am not surprised by this number or that it could actually be higher.

A good site when it comes to firearms facts and history.
" 92% of all gun related crimes are committed with a stolen gun" | Extrano's Alley
Another link linking to the 
The 2013 National Crime Victimize Survey report there were almost exactly 300,000 crimes, including murders, facilitated with a firearm.

Of those, not more than 5,000 can be shown to have been facilitated with a firearm legally purchased by the offender. 
"What Percentage Of Crimes Committed With Illegal And Legal Guns" | Extrano's Alley


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## RedLion

Remember the 2013 Executive Order that Barry made requiring that the CDC do a study on gun violence? It did not turn out how he wanted it to.



> White House Study Finds Guns Save Lives: "Consistently Lower Injury Rates Among Gun Using Crime Victims"


White House Study Finds Guns Save Lives: "Consistently Lower Injury Rates Among Gun Using Crime Victims"

https://www.guns.com/news/2013/06/27/cdc-releases-study-on-gun-violence-with-shocking-results

CDC Gun Research Backfires on Obama - Guns and Ammo


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## Camel923

The left and government want disarmed subjects that they claim that have no right to government protection. If I have to take may chances, Glock, Colt and others by my side improve the odds


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## The Tourist

When the government says you do not need a gun the first thing you do is get a gun.


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## Back Pack Hack

The Tourist said:


> When the government says you do not need a gun the first thing you do is get a gun.


I say we start a new game: Every time the government lies to us, we buy a gun or more ammo.


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## Prepared One

Back Pack Hack said:


> I say we start a new game: Every time the government lies to us, we buy a gun or more ammo.


I am already playing that game.


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## Back Pack Hack

Prepared One said:


> I am already playing that game.


Me too. But the forum needs to be included. :tango_face_wink:


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## RedLion

Prepared One said:


> I am already playing that game.


I as well. My most recent purchase was buying 2 more magazines for my M57 7.62x25. I now have 8 mags for this GHB side arm.


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## ekim

Correction, it's not a game. It is life and death as we know it. And the government only wants those who bow down alive.


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## Back Pack Hack

ekim said:


> ...........the government only wants those who bow down alive.


Then they don't want me.


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## ekim

Back Pack Hack said:


> Then they don't want me.


You know what the government thinks of you then. Better dead than.....


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## Smitty901

Fact guns kill people, Fact most guns never killed anyone. Fact most shootings are done by known bad people anyway.
Now for the game. I am sitting good in retirement, but if I had to spend money every time the government lied to me. I would have to go back to work.


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## Prepared One

The reality of the situation is the left doesn't care about the facts. Stack the evidence high and deep and it won't matter. The socialists don't care what the evidence supports. It's about control, and in order to control, they have to have the guns. That's the bottom line.


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## ekim

Smitty901 said:


> *Fact guns kill people,* Fact most guns never killed anyone. Fact most shootings are done by known bad people anyway.
> Now for the game. I am sitting good in retirement, but if I had to spend money every time the government lied to me. I would have to go back to work.


None of my guns have ever killed any one. Guns are USED to kill people yes, but only if used by people to do so.

Correction, I'm not sure if my old military rifle has ever been used to kill someone or not so therefore I must say that I know of.


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## Back Pack Hack

ekim said:


> You know what the government thinks of you then. Better dead than.....


... a singing giraffe?


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## Slippy

I've got a 1934 Mosin Nagant that I hope has killed plenty of Nazi's...just sayin'. :tango_face_smile:


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## bigwheel

We have plenty of hardware. May need additional soft ware if the yankees start the War of Nothern Aggresion up again. That could get ammo intensive most likely.


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## ekim

bigwheel said:


> We have plenty of hardware. May need additional soft ware if the yankees start the War of Nothern Aggresion up again. That could get ammo intensive most likely.


I'll buy more then. Or take it off dead bodies.


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## Smitty901

ekim said:


> None of my guns have ever killed any one. Guns are USED to kill people yes, but only if used by people to do so.
> 
> Correction, I'm not sure if my old military rifle has ever been used to kill someone or not so therefore I must say that I know of.


 No way of know for sure but yes I would assume , the 1903 Springfield's , M1 Garand, 303 enfields and older Ak's may have. However I am more their caretakers than owner.
Tell our educators what you want the facts to be and they will create them.


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## White Shadow

RedLion said:


> I as well. My most recent purchase was buying 2 more magazines for my M57 7.62x25. I now have 8 mags for this GHB side arm.


Those are such fun guns. I swapped the grips out for this style on my M57A and really like them:

View attachment 94221


https://razorarms.com/


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## RedLion

White Shadow said:


> Those are such fun guns. I swapped the grips out for this style on my M57A and really like them:
> 
> View attachment 94221
> 
> 
> https://razorarms.com/


Nice. Thanks for the thought on changing the grip. I may do that eventhough I like the Serbian "commie" star on the stock grips.


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## White Shadow

I like the looks of the original grips better as well. For actual handling and shooting I much prefer the ergonomic grip.


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## RedLion

Another inconvenient truth for 2nd amendment hating commies.....



> Since 1999, the CDC data show that the *number of fatal firearms-related accidents are, fortunately, down over 41 percent, even as millions more firearms have entered the market.* The firearms and ammunition industry is proud of our safety programs and continues to strive for an even lower rate of unintentional fatalities.


https://www.nssf.org/cdc-data-story-not-making-headlines/


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## ekim

Get politicians / government out of the medical industry, tell shrinks to self medicate, talk to your own doctor and ask who paid for their education, office and supplies, get insurance companies out of the doctors office, trust no one about your health care - get at least 2 options for anything major. If you have school age kids you are screwed, tread carefully.


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## The Tourist

Smitty901 said:


> Fact guns kill people, Fact most guns never killed anyone. Fact most shootings are done by known bad people anyway.
> Now for the game. I am sitting good in retirement, but if I had to spend money every time the government lied to me. I would have to go back to work.


I'm not worried on this faction. I don't think I'd use a gun to kill an attacker. I got into guns about 1974. But I got into knives in 1958. It was Milwaukee, I lived on N36st Street, most side streets were wondering about "white flight," but the beer was better, and a loan shark lived next store--helped my Dad buy a house in the 'burbs.

Oh, that reminds me, I have to sharpen a new EDC carry knife. Doc bought my polished one...

BTW, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun collection.


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## Back Pack Hack

The Tourist said:


> .............BTW, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun collection.


Now that's funny.... no matter who you are!
:vs_laugh:


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## RedLion

No surprise at all.



> Researchers Credit Right to Carry Law With Reduction in Chicago Property Crimes





> Recently, two researchers disproved at least some of Emanuel's prognostications and added to the growing body of evidence that allowing citizens the right to defend themselves with guns outside their homes can lead to a decrease in crime (see, e.g., here, here, here, and here for examples).


https://www.nraila.org/articles/20190104/researchers-credit-right-to-carry-law-with-reduction-in-chicago-property-crimes


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## Prepared One

RedLion said:


> No surprise at all.
> 
> https://www.nraila.org/articles/20190104/researchers-credit-right-to-carry-law-with-reduction-in-chicago-property-crimes


Who would have figured it! Give people the right to defend themselves and crime goes down? What a concept! No matter the facts the left will keep hammering the lie. It's not about crime, it's about getting the guns and the agenda.


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## RedLion

91% of gun related crimes in Chicago are committed by known felons.....anyone surprised? I did not think so.



> Working with the University of Chicago, police have analyzed the data and learned that 95 percent of crime guns in Chicago are traced back to someone other than the original purchaser, and that 91 percent of those guns wind up in the hands of felons.


New ideas needed to attack Philadelphia?s relentless gun violence | Editorial


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## Sasquatch

RedLion said:


> 91% of gun related crimes in Chicago are committed by known felons.....anyone surprised? I did not think so.
> 
> New ideas needed to attack Philadelphia?s relentless gun violence | Editorial


This only means we must get rid of all guns, complete ban, so felons cant get their hands on them.

You know that'll be the next move.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## RedLion

Sasquatch said:


> This only means we must get rid of all guns, complete ban, so felons cant get their hands on them.
> 
> You know that'll be the next move.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Or we could just get rid of felons......and most politicians as well....


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## NotTooProudToHide

RedLion said:


> 91% of gun related crimes in Chicago are committed by known felons.....anyone surprised? I did not think so.
> 
> New ideas needed to attack Philadelphia?s relentless gun violence | Editorial


How about gun laws that actually work?

For example, if you are a felon caught in possession of a gun you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.

If you're caught stealing a gun you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.

If you use a gun to commit a felony you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.

That sounds like a pretty good start to me.


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## Denton

NotTooProudToHide said:


> How about gun laws that actually work?
> 
> For example, if you are a felon caught in possession of a gun you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.
> 
> If you're caught stealing a gun you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.
> 
> If you use a gun to commit a felony you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.
> 
> That sounds like a pretty good start to me.


Gun laws simply make cowards feel good and politicians feel more powerful. They are as helpful as a steri-strip on a severed artery.

Murder is murder, robbery is robbery, etc.; it doesn't matter what tool you use to commit a crime.


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## Sasquatch

We only need 2 gun laws on the books:

1. It is against the law to shoot someone unless done in self defense. 

2. It is against the law to pull your weapon unless defending yourself. 

That's all, just 2.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Back Pack Hack

Sasquatch said:


> .........
> 2. It is against the law to pull your weapon unless defending yourself, or when properly and safely practicing /training.
> ...........


Fify .


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## RedLion

More facts in favor of freedom.



> Three Separate 2018 Studies Found Zero Evidence That Universal Background Checks Prevent Gun Deaths





> researchers studied firearm homicide and suicide rates in California before and after the Golden State passed its CBC law. Researchers waited 10 years to study the effects of this law, but in the end, "The study found no net difference between firearm-related homicide rates before and during the 10 years after policy implementation."


https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2019/01/staff-writer/three-separate-2018-studies-found-zero-evidence-that-comprehensive-checks-cbcs-prevent-gun-deaths/


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## The Resister

NotTooProudToHide said:


> How about gun laws that actually work?
> 
> For example, if you are a felon caught in possession of a gun you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.
> 
> If you're caught stealing a gun you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.
> 
> If you use a gun to commit a felony you go to prison for 5 years, no plea deals, reduced time, and said 5 years is served on top of whatever you get.
> 
> That sounds like a pretty good start to me.


I'd prefer to enact some* realistic* laws that would reduce gun violence *before* it happens AND those laws not interfere with the Second Amendment. I could suggest a few.


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## RedLion

The Resister said:


> I'd prefer to enact some* realistic* laws that would reduce gun violence *before* it happens AND those laws not interfere with the Second Amendment. I could suggest a few.


Out of curiosity what would those laws be? We are pretty sure that we know what factors led to crime dropping since the middle 90's, but go for it.


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## The Resister

RedLion said:


> Out of curiosity what would those laws be? We are pretty sure that we know what factors led to crime dropping since the middle 90's, but go for it.


We can address the subject a little at a time. *This post is just the start*. It is not all inclusive. There will be many posts to come if we pursue this.

If we tackle the first major problem, it would solve not only the issue I'm going to address, but many others. Still this is only a start. We know that mass shootings are our major problem. We lose lots of lives and get a constant barrage of media presence to exploit the carnage. For me, I can hear about a mass shooting, cut off my television after the first initial report and tell you all about the shooter with 98 percent accuracy.

Virtually all *mass shootings* are done by only two classes of people:

A) Political jihadists

B) White males between 18 and 40 under the care of a psychologist / psychiatrist or other MD and they were on (or on) a schedule of drugs called *SSRIs*.

Since Trump is working on political jihadists by banning Muslims that pose a threat, that much of the equation is being addressed. So, let us address mass shooters.

The current method of dealing with children is for the parents or government to get doctors or mental health officials to prescribe pills. When the children are very young, they are put on *Ritalin* or *Adderall* for phony and non-existent conditions. Then they go on to opioids (whether legal or illegal.) Since we've manufactured drug addicts, we wind up with a lot teens with problems beyond their drug addiction, so we allow the doctors / mental health officials to prescribe *SSRIs* to these children.The* KNOWN* side effects of these drugs are suicidal and homicidal tendencies.

Of course, those who want bumper sticker answers would say why don't you just ban SSRIs? That's not possible and it's not realistic. But, the way to resolve mass shootings is to change America's drug culture. We need to commit ourselves to the proposition that a pill is the* LAST *option, not the first. To that end, every county in America would set up a Youth Intervention Team. They already possess the manpower.

Take a minimum of six people working within the county and put them in one office. Two will be specially trained in psychology, two in legal investigations with a specialty in family relationships and two people to be in charge of parenting classes, rehabilitation procedures, etc. Let's call it the Dept. of Youth Intervention (or DYI.)

When any child / youth (i.e. anyone under 18) has three reportable offenses in any twelve month period, a special program would "_flag_" the DYI. Reportable offenses may include, but not be limited to being "_hyperactive_, expulsion from school, two or more reprimands in school, police reports that have been generated on a given youth, excessive tardiness from school, unapproved absences, reports to a school official that would lead a normal person to think an individual's behavior to be out of the ordinary (i.e. the child / youth has an excessive obsession with death, weapons, etc.)

When the three reportable offenses occur, the DYI jumps into action. They should evaluate the child / youth ASAP. The DYI would hold an interview to determine if the problem is related to a medical condition, conditions at home (maybe the family is totally dysfunctional), or maybe a mental condition. A DYI official goes to the home of the child / youth. The parents do not have to allow the DYI official in, but if they do not then it is time to run a background check on the parents. Are they drug addicts? Felons? In the middle of a divorce? Alcoholics?

If DYI workers ARE allowed access, they should look for warning signs during the interview and determine how the family works. Are there constant conflicts? How are the living conditions? How are the other children, if any, doing? The answer may be that the parents need to be taking parenting classes; they made need rehabilitation for drug and / or alcohol issues.

If the problem is determined to be with the child / youth, the DYI worker would look at how their client's life is structured. Do they have good role models in the home? What is their diet like? Sleep? Exercise time? Study time? The child / youth may need to be put in a teen camp and learn coping skills; they might need group therapy and / or one one counseling.The very last... very *LAST* option would be a prescription for drugs.

Children put on SSRIs would be closely monitored make bi monthly doctor visits to determine the effectiveness of the treatment, that the patient is taking the medicine properly, that other above mentioned issues are being worked with, etc. In addition, those on SSRIs would be drug tested every six months to make sure they are not abusing drugs.

Change the drug culture and you get rid of the presupposed "*need*" to be the world's biggest user of oipoids. Addressing family problems and teaching coping skills are a bigger payoff than mounting defenses to gun control and being defensive players on the issues.

That is just the start...


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## RedLion

I will politely disagree on most of what you stated. Crime as a whole has been reduced since the 90's due in large part to relaxing of guns laws, predominantly the growth of conceal carry by citizens, tougher sentencing on offenders and longer sentences/more severe punishment. Even with the slight growth of mass shooting the past decade it has not been that much when you look over the past 25 years plus. Mass shootings overwhemingly occur in gun free zones. We can thank Bill Clinton and antis for that in the 90's.
The recipe for lower crime would be to get rid of most gun free zones (schools and govt buildings predominantly), continue to relax gun laws thus allowing for the further expansion of the law-abiding to own, carry and use firearms in self-defense and of course tougher sentencing with long sentences/more severe punishment (death penalty whenever appropriate). Start prosecuting those guilty of straw purchasing and also those that knowingly lie on 4473's. Both areas have been grossly ignored.
Also, as far as having some special agency and super intrusive assessment program such as you describe above....it already exists in ways (child protection services/children's mental health units) and would not work as you described, along with potentially being UnConstitutional. Also it would be a system that would be certain to be abused and innocents unnecessarily burdened.
Also, it is usually pretty difficult to assess if an individual is truly a risk to self or others unless you have a good amount of contact with that person and a good amount of collateral reports.
Did you know that a person with a generalize anxiety disorder is usually a higher risk for violence against others than a person with PTSD? It is more complicated that it may seem from the outside.


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## The Tourist

You're speaking in generalities. I have GAD, probably had it since I was three years old. Even in the MC, I never threw an offensive punch. Come to think of it, even my medical providers say that we are more dangerous to ourselves (not eating, stress, not working out) than we are to others.

In fact, Leroy Jethro Gibbs had the best answer to this poppycock. The FBI wanted to arrest him on some charge, and they came down into his basement which was a wood shop. One of the agents looked at all the tools, chisels and saw blades and stated that it would be easy to torture a suspect there. Gibbs had the right answer, he said, _"The only person that's ever been tortured down here is me..."_

I know a forum speaks within a few paragraphs, but GAD effects millions of people who do nothing more than worry or fret. Oh, there's probably a criminal or two in the bunch, just like any other demographic.

...oh, and guess what my big, major crimes is? Why it's hypochondria. Quick, hide the women...LOL


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## RedLion

The Tourist said:


> You're speaking in generalities. I have GAD, probably had it since I was three years old. Even in the MC, I never threw an offensive punch. Come to think of it, even my medical providers say that we are more dangerous to ourselves (not eating, stress, not working out) than we are to others.
> 
> In fact, Leroy Jethro Gibbs had the best answer to this poppycock. The FBI wanted to arrest him on some charge, and they came down into his basement which was a wood shop. One of the agents looked at all the tools, chisels and saw blades and stated that it would be easy to torture a suspect there. Gibbs had the right answer, he said, _"The only person that's ever been tortured down here is me..."_
> 
> I know a forum speaks within a few paragraphs, but GAD effects millions of people who do nothing more than worry or fret. Oh, there's probably a criminal or two in the bunch, just like any other demographic.
> 
> ...oh, and guess what my big, major crimes is? Why it's hypochondria. Quick, hide the women...LOL


Of course other factors play into it, but hard numbers do say that a person with Generalize Anxiety Disorder is a higher risk than a person with PTSD.


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## The Tourist

RedLion said:


> Of course other factors play into it, but hard numbers do say that a person with Generalize Anxiety Disorder is a higher risk than a person with PTSD.


Okay, I'm 95% with you on that. But you have to realize that in just taking the military's number of PTSD suffers, the number gets bigger for every period of war. It would be my belief that anyone with GAD would not usually seek a job that involves being shot at.

But even in my circle, that means friends and people I know at the clinic, I cannot remember a single assault, murder or suicide.


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## RedLion

The Tourist said:


> Okay, I'm 95% with you on that. But you have to realize that in just taking the military's number of PTSD suffers, the number gets bigger for every period of war. It would be my belief that anyone with GAD would not usually seek a job that involves being shot at.
> 
> But even in my circle, that means friends and people I know at the clinic, I cannot remember a single assault, murder or suicide.


"Higher risk" does not mean "high risk" though. Higher than the healthy person, sure, but not short fused ready to pop type risk.


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## The Tourist

RedLion said:


> "Higher risk" does not mean "high risk" though. Higher than the healthy person, sure, but not short fused ready to pop type risk.


Okay, that I'll buy. I just saw my doctor this morning. He routinely tell s me that I do not look like, act like or have had hobbies like a 68 year old man. He would plot my health age at early 50s.

Thank the hypochondria, in a real sense. Other that riding souped up Harleys for shy of 50 years, I really took no other health risks. I eat fish and have for years. I seek out medical advice. I also believe in what is known as "the continuity of care." I don't doctor shop looking for the lowest price. My former doctor and I shared 30 years. I have the same dentist and hygienist. They know my strengths and my failings.

So, even with GAD, I have not run up a (severe) enemies list. For example, recently I checked out CBD oil. The young salesman said, _"Well you know about cannabis, right?"_ And I told him I did not. He glanced at me funny as if to say, _"You have got to be the most clueless boomer on the planet."_

And here's the punchline. I know more people like me than I know the wackadooodles that shoot up shopping malls. Now, that's a crazy lot...


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## RedLion

Murder with a firearm down 47% since 1994....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/2019/02/14/most-americans-incorrectly-think-gun-homicides-have-gotten-worse-not-better/?noredirect=on&__twitter_impression=true


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## gawntrail

#1 A Father in the home.

#2 Moral/Ethic training.

#3 Parent Accountability

A Father in the home greatly increases the chances of a child being better adjusted. 

Some form of understanding differences between right and wrong helps build the foundation for future learning. Being able to relate right and wrong behaviors, values, and social norms to something a child learned in his/her younger years is more favorable than trying to overcome whatever the child has picked up environmentally.

Parent(s) being held responsible for their child will greatly affect the child's behavior. Not a silver bullet or magic wand. But, the more skin in the game the more people will at least try.


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## RedLion

A piece from another study saying that gun control does not work and enabling citizens more freedom to own and bear firearms decreases crime....



> Baltimore and Washington DC are close in both proximity and population with 614,664 vs. 681,170 residents respectively. Violent crime of all types increased by 13 percent in Baltimore, but decreased by -15% in Washington DC. In fact, Washington DC's crime decreased across the board: murders -16%, robberies -25%, and assaults -6%.
> 
> A one-quarter decrease in robberies is unprecedented. It happened only after the courts required Washington DC to end many of its restrictions on firearms and become a shall issue jurisdiction for handgun permits. Contrast this to Baltimore which has seen violent crime continue to rise in all categories by 13%.


https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/has-gun-control-made-baltimore-safer-data-analyst-says-no/2019/03/07


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## The Tourist

I know that the issues of gun violence are overblown. And I use the verb "know."

I had a professor in college who ranked instances of violence. The first one on the list was "bare hands." The second instance was a "blunt object." The idea of a handgun was fifth.

While I carry both, I'm more dangerous with a knife as that was my training, three years worth. I have no formal gun training.


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## Alteredstate

You need to lump emotional ploys together for defense against the foolish. Facts don't matter to squimish fools


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## The Tourist

Alteredstate said:


> You need to lump emotional ploys together for defense against the foolish. Facts don't matter to squimish fools


While I agree with the overall assessment, I must admit there's no good way to come in 'second' in a knife fight. And since part of my job is to polish the edges of that equation, I'm well aware of the end-game. I'd rather not play, but often other people are in my care, as well.


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## RedLion

A good concise description of the relationship between guns and crime....



> Start by considering yourself a working criminal in Boston. You only carry a gun when you are "working" since that crime will get you a year or so in jail. If you look down a row of houses it is a safe bet there is not a legal gun in any of thouse houses, the telephone cable is within easy reach of the first house, so let's go on a shopping spree through that house. And another family at work or school is cleaned out.
> 
> Now, consider the case of a working criminal in El Paso, a city in the same population status as Boston. If you look down a row of residences it is likely that every home has one or more guns that can be used for self defense at any time. If there is anyone at home, even This tends to make criminals seek safer sources of income that crime.
> 
> That is why El Paso's crime rates are only a fraction of Bostons crime rate. Because at bottom, criminals are businessmen of a sort and danger is something they want to avoid.


What is the relationship between guns and crime? | Extrano's Alley


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## The Tourist

RedLion, there is a debate in my area about our CCW provision. Some say to keep our status secret, many others say to make it known.

My wife and I are in the "make it known" category. Our friends understand, and the criminals do not matter. Besides, did you ever see the unmitigated junk that a criminal carries? I had to laugh once when a thug pulled out a SW 629, pointed it at a cop and fired. Everyone winced, but the gun just went "click."

As the thug was bulldozed to the floor, a cop opened the cylinder of the 629, and found an odd assortment of rounds. Each chamber had two .22LR rounds jammed into them.

When the cops asked the thug why he did that, he "reminded" the officers that his revolver was a .44, and not having any .44 caliber rounds, he simply substituted two .22LRs...

I hope I meet this stellar member of our society, it's better than meeting a really dangerous one!


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## RedLion

Another study of interest.....



> Study: 'Assault Weapons' and Magazine Bans Do Not Lower Homicide Rates





> The study was headed by Boston University School of Public Health's Michael Siegel and another listed study author was Harvard gun control advocate David Hemenway.
> 
> The study, The Impact of State Firearm Laws on Homicide and Suicide Deaths in the USA, 1991-2016: a Panel Study, isolated four states to study ten different types of gun control to see if certain gun controls were successful in reducing homicide and/or suicide rates. Via their research, they discovered that "high-capacity" magazine and "assault weapons" bans do not lower homicide rates.


https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/04/01/study-assault-weapons-and-magazine-bans-do-not-lower-homicide-rates/


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## NewRiverGeorge

https://www.wsaz.com/content/news/M...-abduction-at-Huntington-Mall--507974071.html

This happened locally yesterday. I am surprised the mom didn't put the guy down. Nevertheless, good guy (gal) with a gun stopped what could have been a horrible outcome.

It put a smile on my face this morning when I saw it.


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## Michael_Js

Why is the CDC Lying To Us About Gunshot Data?
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2019/03/ttag-contributor/why-is-the-cdc-lying-to-us-about-gunshot-data/?utm_source=wideopen&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=wideopen&utm_content=[[rssitem_title

Peace,
Michael J.


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## RedLion

A very good link to crime stats by state with data from 1960 to 2016. One to save, as it clearly shows that since the large "Hollywood" push for gun control in 1963 every single state has had a boon in violent crimes rates.

U. S. Crime and Imprisonment Statistics Total and by State 1960 - 2013


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## RedLion

More about Red Flag laws not working, ever.....



> Despite the sacrifices, the evidence shows no benefits from these laws. Looking at data from 1970 through 2017, Red Flag laws appear to have had no significant effect on murder, suicide, the number of people killed in mass public shootings, robbery, aggravated assault or burglary. There is some evidence that rape rates rise. These laws apparently do not save lives.


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/apr/4/the-folly-of-red-flag-gun-laws/


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## RedLion

> How Much Has The Latest Gun Control Campaign Cost?


 in lives the past5 years?



> That is essentially a 20% increase in five years, and an in *increase of at least 26965 murders in just five years.*


Just what lefties and anti-freedom traitors want.

Data from....United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017

How Much Has The Latest Gun Control Campaign Cost? | Extrano's Alley


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## jimb1972

RedLion said:


> Nice. Thanks for the thought on changing the grip. I may do that eventhough I like the Serbian "commie" star on the stock grips.


7.62x25 is no joke, I fired some 1956 Romanian surplus over my chronograph from my CZ52 performance was about the same as .327 federal at over 1500 fps. IIRC


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## stowlin

Just read that Daly City, next to San Francisco in CA my old haunt has finally killed the SF Cow Palace Gun Show, a show with decades of history to end this year. I got to visit a real gun show in Texas so it’s not like that in CA but still it’s what they had. In the testimony before the board which killed the gun show a police Chief was asked how many cases of gun violence there were due to transactions at this show? The Chief was clear in his response: NONE, zero, not a one. Advocates still demanded the show end to curb gun violence to which the show never once contributed.


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## RedLion

Kind of a "no shit Sherlock" claim, but......



> Major New Research on School Safety: Schools that Allow Teachers to Carry Guns haven't seen school shootings during school hours





> There has yet to be a single case of someone being wounded or killed from a shooting, let alone a mass public shooting, between 6 AM and midnight at a school that lets teachers carry guns. Fears of teachers carrying guns in terms of such problems as students obtaining teachers guns have not occurred at all, and there was only one accidental discharge outside of school hours with no one was really harmed. While there have not been any problems at schools with armed teachers, the number of people killed at other schools has increased significantly - doubling between 2001 and 2008 versus 2009 and 2018.











https://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/major-new-research-on-school-safety-schools-that-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns-havent-seen-school-shootings-during-school-hours/


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## RedLion

Red Flags laws are not only UnConstitutional, but they do not work at all to make anyone anywhere safer.



> Red flag laws had no significant effect on murder, suicide, the number of people killed in mass public shootings, robbery, aggravated assault, or burglary. There is some evidence that rape rates rise. These laws apparently do not save lives.


https://crimeresearch.org/2019/01/new-research-on-red-flag-laws-do-red-flag-laws-save-lives-or-reduce-crime/


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## RedLion

Moar......



> Do states with stricter gun control laws have fewer gun deaths? No. Do they have fewer homicides and suicides? Definitely not


https://crimeresearch.org/2018/03/states-stricter-gun-control-laws-fewer-gun-deaths-no-fewer-homicides-suicides-definitely-no/


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## RedLion

More of those peskie facts that gun grabbers do not like......



> "Gun Crime" is a Made Up Word from the Anti-Gun World, Here are the Real Numbers


Some notables.....



> 53% of all shootings are by black men under 30. So, 3% of the US population does more than ½ the killing. 83% of all shootings are gang and drug-related.
> 
> Only about 7% of all shootings from a rifle or shotgun and less than 40% of that 7% involve Modern Sporting Rifles.
> 
> The U.S. ranks 11th in mass shootings for industrialized nations. 50% of the counties in the US will not have a murder within their boundary. 2% of the counties had 53% of all the murders in the U.S.


https://www.ammoland.com/2019/05/gun-crime-is-a-made-up-word-from-the-anti-gun-world-here-are-the-real-numbers/#axzz5oeoZIUKs


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## The Tourist

Prepared One said:


> I am already playing that game.


Not me, ohhhh, no! Violate the sacred laws and regulations of my country just to pack a side arm? Yikes, what are perfectly good baseball bats for!

Besides, where in this entire United States would you ever buy a handgun?

Well, I will admit to carrying a handy automatic pistol whenever I'm alone or with somebody. I might break my switchblade...


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## Back Pack Hack

RedLion said:


> Kind of a "no shit Sherlock" claim, but......
> 
> View attachment 97843
> 
> 
> https://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/m...nt-seen-school-shootings-during-school-hours/


This popped up on YouBoob today:


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## RedLion

Blacks by far commit the most mass shootings. Does not fit the narrative.

The Lie That Will Not Die and the Truth about Black Mass Shooters

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/05/the_lie_that_will_not_die_and_the_truth_about_black_mass_shooters.html


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## Sasquatch

Back Pack Hack said:


> This popped up on YouBoob today:


Not sure I can agree with this. I know a lot of teachers and most cant find their car keys on any given day. Not sure I'd trust them with a firearm.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## RedLion

> Mass Shootings by the Numbers, What You've Been Told is a Lie





> Here are the three big TRUTHS the left is lying about.
> ◦78% of mass shooting do NOT use an "Assault Rifle"
> ◦As a Percentage of the population, whites, and Hispanics are the LEAST likely to do a mass shooting.
> ◦Gun Control laws have NO effect on mass shootings.
> 
> Only 15 of the 67 events involved an "AR patterned" firearm; they are used in less than 22% of mass shootings. Only 22% of all mass shooting used AR style rifles.
> 
> As a Percentage of the population, most shooters are of middle eastern descent.


https://www.ammoland.com/2019/06/mass-shootings-by-the-numbers-is-a-lie/#axzz5sQUyJyEc


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## RedLion

> Breaking down Mass Public Shooting data from 1998 though June 2019: Info on weapons used; gun-free zones; racial, age, and gender demographics


Including that 89% of mass shootings occurred in Gun Free Zones.

https://crimeresearch.org/2019/07/breaking-down-mass-public-shooting-data-from-1998-though-june-2019-info-on-weapons-used-gun-free-zones-racial-age-and-gender-demographics/


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## Back Pack Hack

RedLion said:


> Including that 89% of mass shootings occurred in Gun Free Zones.
> 
> https://crimeresearch.org/2019/07/b...ree-zones-racial-age-and-gender-demographics/


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## The Tourist

RedLion said:


> Including that 89% of mass shootings occurred in Gun Free Zones.


In the late 1980s when my wife was teaching full-time there was a shooting suspect who tried to hang out in their school. Even though the felon fired no shots once inside that school, every adult knew just how dangerous that situation could have turned. In fact, the local SWAT team used her school for subsequent breaching practice.

On the bright side, there have been 0% mass shootings in my neighborhood. For a suburban neighborhood, we have lots of ********!


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## The Tourist

*@RedLion*, I think it's obvious by now that I use humor in many facets of my life, including here in the forum. What might seem odd if we were to meet is the amount of ordnanace I carry in my daily life.

Yes, I am "dead serious" about the despoilers we might meet. However, I will not turn my life over to all the bogey-men out there that I might never meet. I intend to enjoy life, every drop of it. I might carry an automatic pistol, a spare magazine and one or three polished knives. But I refuse to let those implements rule my life.

For example, I've been carrying a polished Gerber folder. However, I clip the thing to my jeans with all the disinterest of the handkerchief I also carry. I will not be defined by the negatives in society. I bought fire insurance, too, but I'm not going to obsess about flames...


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## bigwheel

The Tourist said:


> *@RedLion*, I think it's obvious by now that I use humor in many facets of my life, including here in the forum. What might seem odd if we were to meet is the amount of ordnanace I carry in my daily life.
> 
> Yes, I am "dead serious" about the despoilers we might meet. However, I will not turn my life over to all the bogey-men out there that I might never meet. I intend to enjoy life, every drop of it. I might carry an automatic pistol, a spare magazine and one or three polished knives. But I refuse to let those implements rule my life.
> 
> For example, I've been carrying a polished Gerber folder. However, I clip the thing to my jeans with all the disinterest of the handkerchief I also carry. I will not be defined by the negatives in society. I bought fire insurance, too, but I'm not going to obsess about flames...


Hope the blood thirsty muzzies who are looking for soft targets such as schools will let you get close enough to get a shive in the ribs. Prayers for your success. You can be funnny but looks arent everything. lol.


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## The Tourist

*@bigwheel*, I decided that if I was going to lug weapons I'd better know how to use them. Despite having pistols for decades, I took a local class. As for edged weapons, I took a few years of blade training. I carry polished edged tools, and yes, a shiv (there is no 'e' in shiv, BTW) is always within arm's reach.

But here's the kicker. I didn't get "meaner" by looking for training. I grew calmer, the world wasn't a spooky place anymore. I knew what to look for and what to do about it.


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## RedLion

A reminder of who really are the mass shooters in the U.S.....overwhelmingly black gang bangers.....



> But in the two-week run-up to Gilroy, there were 36 other mass shootings from coast to coast - and 34 of those shooters were black. One was white and one Hispanic. These results echo a New York Times story from 2016 that stated, much to the surprise and chagrin of the reporters, that whenever there are three or more victims of gunfire, 75 percent of  shooters in America are black.


https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/07/after_gilroy_mass_shootings_a_white_thing_oh_hell_no.html


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## Back Pack Hack

RedLion said:


> A reminder of who really are the mass shooters in the U.S.....overwhelmingly black gang bangers.....
> 
> https://www.americanthinker.com/blo..._mass_shootings_a_white_thing_oh_hell_no.html


36 mass shootings......... in two weeks?!?!!?

Sorry, but that's *2½ a day*. I ain't buyin' it.


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## RedLion

Back Pack Hack said:


> 36 mass shootings......... in two weeks?!?!!?
> 
> Sorry, but that's *2½ a day*. I ain't buyin' it.


I am skeptical of that large of number as well, but Chicago, St. Louis, Detroilet and do not forget Baltimore are big time murder paradises.


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## Back Pack Hack

RedLion said:


> I am skeptical of that large of number as well, but Chicago, St. Louis, Detroilet and do not forget Baltimore are big time murder paradises.


Shootings....... I can buy.

MASS shooting? Nope.


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## RedLion

Back Pack Hack said:


> Shootings....... I can buy.
> 
> MASS shooting? Nope.


They could be using a different definition of a mass shooting other than the FBI's which is 4 or more victims. I don't know, most mass shootings are gang banger shooting.


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## RedLion

A mass shooting factoid.....



> U.S. Rate is Lower than Global Average


https://crimeresearch.org/2018/08/new-cprc-research-how-a-botched-study-fooled-the-world-about-the-u-s-share-of-mass-public-shootings-u-s-rate-is-lower-than-global-average/


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## The Tourist

*@RedLion*, you bring up a point that still baffles me.

For example, if a gunman shoots four or more victims, he's a "mass shooter." If he only fires at three victims he's a "plinker." Personally, I think a sniper is a sniper, ergo he's terrorist. But then, that doesn't make the 5:00 o'clock news thrilling and engaging.

If a mother finds out her son has been killed, does she say, "_Well, it's better here that in Syria, eleven boys were killed there today_."

At the end of the day I hate the news media as much as I do the sniper.


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## Back Pack Hack

The Tourist said:


> *@RedLion*, you bring up a point that still baffles me.
> 
> For example, if a gunman shoots four or more victims, he's a "mass shooter." .........


It's an arbitrary number, chosen to promote the leftist agenda. Just like, magically, 10-rd (or less) mags are somehow 'safer'.

By that number, a guy who kills his three kids and wife in a murder/suicide situation, it's considered a 'mass shooting'.


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## RedLion

Back Pack Hack said:


> It's an arbitrary number, chosen to promote the leftist agenda. Just like, magically, 10-rd (or less) mags are somehow 'safer'.
> 
> By that number, a guy who kills his three kids and wife in a murder/suicide situation, it's considered a 'mass shooting'.


Actually the FBI defines a mass shooting as being 4 or more killed.


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## Back Pack Hack

RedLion said:


> Actually the FBI defines a mass shooting as being 4 or more killed.


Based on.....?


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## RedLion

Back Pack Hack said:


> Based on.....?


I am sure why? They chose that number for mass shootings some years ago. It is generally the "standard" so to speak though.


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## RedLion

I might be outdated?...:tango_face_wink:....



> The FBI used to consider someone a "mass murderer" if they killed four or more people during one event, regardless of weapons used. But starting in 2013, federal statutes defined "mass killing" as three or more people killed, regardless of weapons. And unlike the tracker, the tally doesn't include the killer if he or she is eventually killed by law enforcement or takes his or her own life.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/what-makes-a-mass-shooting-in-america/?noredirect=on


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## hawgrider

RedLion said:


> Actually the FBI defines a mass shooting as being 4 or more killed.





> The characterization of an event as a mass shooting depends upon definition and definitions vary.[4][5] Under U.S. federal law the Attorney General may on a request from a state assist in investigating "mass killings", rather than mass shootings. The term was originally defined as the murder of four or more people with no cooling-off period[1][5] *but redefined by Congress in 2013 as being murder of three or more people.*


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting


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## RedLion

hawgrider said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting


Please refer to me post just above yours.


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## hawgrider

RedLion said:


> Please refer to me post just above yours.


 I type slow you beat me while I was posting the info.

So lets see the number was lowered in 2013 under The half breed administration. Probably to fatten up the numbers for the sensationalism factor.

Whats the freakin difference 3 or 4? Who freakin cares? Not me. Mass shootings by definition happen every singe day In Detoilet and Chicono but you don't see those numbers being thrown at us. Isnt a day that goes by that Detoilet doesn't show Blacks killing Blacks with 3 or 4 Dindonuffin mothers saying he was a good boy..... Pfft!


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## RedLion

hawgrider said:


> I type slow you beat me while I was posting the info.
> 
> So lets see the number was lowered in 2013 under The half breed administration. Probably to fatten up the numbers for the sensationalism factor.
> 
> Whats the freakin difference 3 or 4? Who freakin cares? Not me. Mass shootings by definition happen every singe day In Detoilet and Chicono but you don't see those numbers being thrown at us. Isnt a day that goes by that Detoilet doesn't show Blacks killing Blacks with 3 or 4 Dindonuffin mothers saying he was a good boy..... Pfft!


To fatten the numbers is exactly why it was changed.


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## RedLion

> New CPRC Research: Mass Public Shootings are much higher in the rest of the world and increasing much more quickly





> By our count, the US makes up less than 1.1% of the mass public shooters, 1.49% of their murders, and 2.20% of their attacks. All these are much less than the US's 4.6% share of the world population. Attacks in the US are not only less frequent than other countries, they are also much less deadly on average.
> Out of the 97 countries where we have identified mass public shootings occurring, the United States ranks 64th in the per capita frequency of these attacks and 65th in the murder rate.


https://crimeresearch.org/2018/11/new-cprc-research-mass-public-shootings-are-much-higher-in-the-rest-of-the-world-and-increasing-much-more-quickly/


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## RedLion

Good news.



> America's New Shooters: Increasingly Female, Younger and Urban





> the number of "target shooters" in the nation rose from 34.4 million Americans in 2009 to 52.1 million Americans in 2018-a jump of 51% in "new target shooters."





> the new target shooter is more likely to be female and younger than established shooters. A full 47% (nearly half) of the new target shooters are women-compared to just 22% of established shooters being female.





> Meanwhile, 47% of these new shooters live in urban and suburban locales. Also a smaller but growing percentage of these new shooters are from minority groups.


https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/articles/2019/8/24/america-s-new-shooters-increasingly-female-younger-and-urban/


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## Mad Trapper

RedLion said:


> Good news.
> 
> https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/articles/2019/8/24/america-s-new-shooters-increasingly-female-younger-and-urban/


But we are still losing hunters :sad2:. Mostly due to restrictive gun laws/regulations.

Truancy of boys in High School was real high first week of deer season.


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## hawgrider

Mad Trapper said:


> *But we are still losing hunters* :sad2:. * Mostly due to restrictive gun laws/regulations.*
> 
> Truancy of boys in High School was real high first week of deer season.


And lame city folk parents.


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## RedLion

2018 FBI Uniform Crime Report just came out. Good news folks.



> All methods of murder dropped by 7 percent in 2018, and gun murders fell by 6.7 percent, according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report. *But murders committed specifically with rifles fell by an even greater 23.8 percent.*


https://freebeacon.com/national-security/rifle-murders-declined-nearly-24-percent-fbi-report-shows/


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## The Tourist

*@RedLion*, I like the way you laid out this topic and the features you included.

Could you do me a favor and do the same type of treatise on _knives_?


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## RedLion

A lengthy Amicus brief, but good information on the history of firearm magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds and repeating firearms written about in the body.

https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Assoc-NJ-Pistol-Rifle-v-Atty-Gen.pdf

An accompanying article.

https://www.captainsjournal.com/2020/02/12/david-kopel-magazines-over-10-rounds-were-well-known-to-the-founders/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+captainsjournal+%28The+Captain%27s+Journal%29


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## RedLion

> According to a study in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, which cites the Centers for Disease Control, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the United Nations International Study on Firearms Regulation, the more guns a nation has, the less criminal activity.
> 
> In other words, more firearms, less crime, concludes the virtually unpublicized research report by attorney Don B. Kates and Dr. Gary Mauser. But the key is firearms in the hands of private citizens.


https://www.beliefnet.com/news/articles/harvard-university-study-reveals-astonishing-link?amp=1


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## Smitty901

Roberts will sell us out. He showed where he stand this week


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## RedLion

Based on the 2016 Survey of Prison Inmates, the Justice Department reported in 2019 that “among prisoners who possessed a gun during their offense, 90% did not obtain it from a retail source.” Read that again. Among those individuals arrested, convicted, and sentenced, 90% of the firearms used in gun-related crimes did not come from legal sources, which include gun shows. Astoundingly, only 0.8% of prisoners who had a firearm during their offense legally “obtained it at a gun show.” So, less than 1% of all firearms used in gun-related offenses came from gun shows. This is fascinating, seeing that the current administration and congressional majority would have us believe the “gun show loophole” is one area where the plague of gun violence is spawning from and it is just “common sense” to address it. But yet again, the facts show this is an illusion.


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## RedLion

A reminder that while about 20,000 people are killed by firearm per year via criminal homicide, there continues to be an average of 2,000,000 incidents per year in the U.S. where firearms are used to protect life.

There Are Far More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders in America. Here's Why You Rarely Hear of Them.

Also, about twice as many whites have been killed by police 2017-2021 compared to blacks, even though black males, all 7% of the population are way over-represented in committing crimes.

People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2021 | Statista


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## RedLion

"New FBI Report Shows Armed Citizens STOP Mass Shootings."

New FBI Report Shows Armed Citizens STOP Mass Shootings


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