# refrigeration off grid



## budgetprepp-n

As most of you know when it comes to solar set ups,,,,
I have no clue what I'm doing but I do know how to shut up and listen.
And that seems to work out nice some times. -Check out my post-
Two things that I have learned about messing with solar is that the two hardest things to have 
is hot water or refrigeration if it comes from electricity made by a solar panel. The amount of juice needed is just to massive if your on a budget. But I may have found a small refrigerator that could be just what I need. Ok And as most of you know I come looking for wisdom and anwsers.
So lets get on with it. I found a small refrigerator 3.2 cubes specs are,,
yearly usage $35 260 kw hrs 
what I have will be two batteries that are 114 @1a each that will be will fully charged every 24 hours. Do you guys think I can pull this off? And lets keep it simpel if you don't know I don't speak techaneaze 

I have more power than that to spare but I want to play it safe here.


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## Ripon

There are lots of calculators online to help you with the kilowatt hours and such. I recall a 200 watt panel in California or a top tier location in the country producing about 300 kilowatt hours a year in total power but if you are in an area that doesn't get as much sun as CA then you'd need more. This would also require a azimuth of 186 degrees (if I recall that was the perfect direction) and the proper pitch in your roof line or wherever you mount the panel - no shade of course. 

I recently saw a pallet of 240 watt panels for about $16k or almost exactly $200 each for a 240 watt panel - that was a good deal and a good brand as I recall. So clearly they have plummeted in prices recently - guess obama's rhetoric about dissing chinese panels was just that - rhetoric.


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## HuntingHawk

Only important information you are missing is everything. 

What is its surge power & run power?
What voltage does it run on?

If you have a 12VDC solar & battery system & refrigerator works on 120VAC you need an inverter that will invert that 12VDC to 120VAC. That means using 10X more power then you thought.

How many sunny days per year do you average?
What is the minimum amount of hours you will have in winter for solar charging?

If you only average 200 days of sunlight per year you are probably going to need twice the power then you calculated. If you only have three hours of useable sunlight in winter for charging the batteries then you have to have enough panels to charge those batteries for 24 hours of use. If you only average 200 days of sunlight that means sun basically everyother day so three hours to charge those batteries for 48 hours of use.

And here's another factor. Are you going to set up the solar panels that they are adjustable for latitude of the sun? Angle of the sun moves about 5 degrees per month & that easily means loss of 15% efficiency of the solar panels per month. Basically, whatever your latitude you have to be able to adjust + 15 degrees from that & -15 degrees from that.

With that all being said, you will find a small 5-7cuft chest freezer more efficient then a refrigerator. Have whatever size cooler you need for your food. Freeze & refreeze water jugs in the chest freezer for putting into the cooler. Means the chest freezer you only have to get into once per day so runs efficiently.
I've a 520watt solar system & three 125AH batteries plus a 2000watt inverter. Plenty of power to run the chest freezer plus enough left over to operate a 12VDC TV, 12VDC fan, & some 12VDC lights.


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## budgetprepp-n

HuntingHawk said:


> Only important information you are missing is everything.
> 
> What is its surge power & run power?
> What voltage does it run on?
> 
> If you have a 12VDC solar & battery system & refrigerator works on 120VAC you need an inverter that will invert that 12VDC to 120VAC. That means using 10X more power then you thought.
> 
> How many sunny days per year do you average?
> What is the minimum amount of hours you will have in winter for solar charging?
> 
> If you only average 200 days of sunlight per year you are probably going to need twice the power then you calculated. If you only have three hours of useable sunlight in winter for charging the batteries then you have to have enough panels to charge those batteries for 24 hours of use. If you only average 200 days of sunlight that means sun basically everyother day so three hours to charge those batteries for 48 hours of use.
> 
> And here's another factor. Are you going to set up the solar panels that they are adjustable for latitude of the sun? Angle of the sun moves about 5 degrees per month & that easily means loss of 15% efficiency of the solar panels per month. Basically, whatever your latitude you have to be able to adjust + 15 degrees from that & -15 degrees from that.
> 
> With that all being said, you will find a small 5-7 cu ft chest freezer more efficient then a refrigerator. Have whatever size cooler you need for your food. Freeze & refreeze water jugs in the chest freezer for putting into the cooler. Means the chest freezer you only have to get into once per day so runs efficiently.
> I've a 520watt solar system & three 125AH batteries plus a 2000watt inverter. Plenty of power to run the chest freezer plus enough left over to operate a 12VDC TV, 12VDC fan, & some 12VDC lights.


The power to run this refrigerator will be two batteries that are 114 hr @ 1 amp that will be fully charged every morning I really don't see if they are charged by sunlight or nuclear flash matters or how many sunny days I have. 
it runs on 110 volts but I will be using an inverter so I guess that means I need 1,100 volts at 70 amps 
Oh, and maybe less than 200 sunny days so now I need 2,200 at 140 amps <-thats buy your math
really? 10 times more voltage due to an inverter? - I'm sorry but I just ain't buying it. 
And this is a survivalist set up so in the winter I dought it will be needed much 
and I just don't see how a 5 to 7 cubic freezer dizined to keep food frozen could be more effencent than a small 3.2 frieguator dizined to keep food chiled

Look I'm sorry but evertime I ask a question and it turns into techanize talk It can't be done 
without a football field of panels and $150,000 invested 
and that 15 degress thing i'm just going to let it slide

I guess the power surge is imporant but this is the question,,,,,
will two fully battries that are 114 hrs @1a run a small refrigerator that is rated at 
260 kwhrs yearly $35 I just don't see how the juice got in the battries matters. 
I would think that a fellow so smart he has that many extra numbers in his head should be able to estamate surge and divide 260 kwhrs for a year into a days use.


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## HuntingHawk

And the chest freezer I have draws 12amps surge & 1.69amps run at 120VAC. Needs 1440watt surge inverter so the 2000watt run inverter I have is more then enough. Takes about three minutes from the initial surge of 12amps to drop down to 2amp power draw. 2 amps from the inverter but the inverter is drawing 20amps from the batteries & that isn't figuring any losses with the inverter.


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## HuntingHawk

With electricity conversions you gain something you will loose something. To convert 12VDC to 120VAC takes 10X amperage. 12VDC 10amps drawn threw an inverter will give a 120VAC 1amp output. Cheap converter it may be less then 1amp output. If you don't believe that then noone is going to be able to help you figure out a system.


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## HuntingHawk

A chest freezer is more efficient then a refrigerator because with a chest freezer you open the top & most of the cold stays in the bottom. When you open a refrigerator door the cold goes out the bottom so takes more power to rechill.

If you freeze plastic jugs & put them into a cooler it will keep everything in there chilled. You loose very little cold opening the top lid of the cooler. So just getting into a chest freezer once or twice a day to add water jugs to be frozen & take frozen jugs out for the cooler is very effective.


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## roy

I don't know if this will help but . . . 

The AMC, Appalachian Mountain Club, maintains a series of huts in the White Mountains that are completely off grid. Everything comes in on foot or on an annual helicopter drop. The have a very sophicated electrical system that includes, solar, wind and propane powered generators. They used some sort of high tech refregerators specifically designed to be efficient and run off grid. You might want to take a look at some of the stuff they use.


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## PrepConsultant

HuntingHawk said:


> A chest freezer is more efficient then a refrigerator because with a chest freezer you open the top & most of the cold stays in the bottom. When you open a refrigerator door the cold goes out the bottom so takes more power to rechill.
> 
> If you freeze plastic jugs & put them into a cooler it will keep everything in there chilled. You loose very little cold opening the top lid of the cooler. So just getting into a chest freezer once or twice a day to add water jugs to be frozen & take frozen jugs out for the cooler is very effective.


I too recommend a freezer over a fridge. That is what we will be doing in our new off grid place.. We will have a solar setup that we will run a freezer off of. We also have an OLD "ice box" we will be using as a fridge.


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## budgetprepp-n

is there any reason that a small fridge can't be laid on it's back and used?


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## roy

Yes...................


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## PrepConsultant

budgetprepp-n said:


> is there any reason that a small fridge can't be laid on it's back and used?


 Is there a certain reason you are set on a fridge and not a freezer?

Most fridges are not supposed to be turned on their back or side. They need to stay in an upright position.


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## rickkyw1720pf

If I was looking for a refrigerator for off the grid use I would look into one of the kerosene or propane type. Several of the can also use electricity when available. Lehmans is a good place to start they have a non-electric catalog.
https://www.lehmans.com/
absorption refrigerators have been around a long time. Basically anything that produces heat can run a refrigerator. A large full size refrigerator uses 1.5 to 1.75 gal/week of kerosene or about 11 lbs of propane per week.


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## tango

Propane/electric refrigerator/freezera like those in RV's are an option. They will run on a regular propane tank for a long time
They are not cheap, however.


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## HuntingHawk

Laid flat, a refrigerator won't last long before the compressor burns up.


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## tango

If you must lay a refrigerator on the side or back, stand it up for several hours (at least 4) before restarting.
The oil runs out of the compressor and needs time to settle back


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## Rigged for Quiet

tango said:


> Propane/electric refrigerator/freezera like those in RV's are an option. They will run on a regular propane tank for a long time
> They are not cheap, however.


The best way to aquire one of these is to buy an amller 80's model RV. In one swipe you aquire an airconditioner and a fridge that run on either propane or 120, usually a generator, and whole host of items that will run off of 12 volts such as an on demand water pump that comes with it's own potable water tank.

RV supply stores and interwebz sites have a ton of 12 volt appliances as well.


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## Gallo Pazzesco

HuntingHawk said:


> And the chest freezer I have draws 12amps surge & 1.69amps run at 120VAC. Needs 1440watt surge inverter so the 2000watt run inverter I have is more then enough. Takes about three minutes from the initial surge of 12amps to drop down to 2amp power draw. 2 amps from the inverter but the inverter is drawing 20amps from the batteries & that isn't figuring any losses with the inverter.


A super insulated freezer is best run in spurts from a generator. During the winter you may not have to run it but once a week, but during the summer you may have to run it for a couple of hours every day. It's all dependent on how well the freezer is insulated and what part of the country you live in. And, it's a catch 22. If you live in a part of the country where it is freezing a few months out of the year, you'll not be living in a part of the country where you could run solar panels at the same time ... you'd probably be better off with wind generators.

Producing, and storing, off the grid energy is a balancing act that is very dependent upon your means as well as your geographical location. Someone who lives in the mountains near a small waterfall could, conceivably, produce all the power they would ever need using water turbines ... provided the water didn't freeze.


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## Montana Rancher

Sorry for just picking up this thread, here is what I suggest, get one of these

Refrigeration

( scroll down a bit to the item called external,thermostat)

Then get something like this chest freezer, 8.8 cubic foot and uses less than 300kw per year.

GE 8.8 cu. ft. Chest Freezer in White-FCM9DTWH at The Home Depot

EXTERNAL THERMOSTAT

External thermostat turns a 120v AC freezer into a refrigerator. No modification needed. Energy consumed as a refrigerator is roughly 1/3rd less then that consumed by the freezer. Your freezer's plug simply plugs into this thermostat's corded outlet and the thermostat's corded plug inserts into your 120v AC wall outlet. Temperature range: -30 to 100 degrees F.

This gives you a 8.8 cf refrigerator with the advantages of the top opening, and all that for about 200 kw hours a year. You will lose the auto defrost feature that is built in to most modern refers.


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## randy grider

u need a propane fridge, too much electric drain for an electric one. Hot water as well.


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## Montana Rancher

randy grider said:


> u need a propane fridge, too much electric drain for an electric one. Hot water as well.


For the price of a propane refrigerator + a 100 gallon filled tank, a person could install a 500w solar system that could power 3 of the chest freezers I mentioned above.


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## Leon




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## paraquack

As an RVer for the last 35 years, I have to throw in my 2 cents. An RV refrigerator that runs on AC electricity/propane/ and /or DC electricity (12 volt battery) have be around for a very long time. The one on my present motorhome lasted 15 years before dying. Mine was AC and propane but they all need 12 volt DC for the control system. They work fine, in general. I also have a Norcold AC/DC combo fridge/freezer. It's about the size of a cooler chest and consumes around 4+ amps at 12 volt DC per hour of run time. The thermostat can be set for fridge or freeze and it will freeze solid. Mine only holds about 80 cans of beer, so it's kind of small. I bought it back in 1973 and it still runs great. But the cost is out of sight. Norcold Motorhome/RV/Marine/Truck Refrigerators - PPL Motor Homes I don't think I would buy it today because of the cost, but it is a really great unit. 
The regular camper fridge/freezers I talked about in the beginning are no cheaper but are bigger. All RV, 2 & 3 Way, Ammonia Refrigs - PPL Motor Homes They start at $1149.00 The only benefit is you don't need the inverter to change to 120 volt AC. You might be able to get one of these out of a wrecked camper at a junk yard???


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## Montana Rancher

I looked into propane refrigerators because of this thread.

I found one for $1500 that was about 8 CF and claimed it burned 2 gallons of propane a WEEK

I was thinking BS since I know my 2CF camper refrigerator burns a lot more than that.

Anyone have a real full sized refer and know the actual consumption?


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## paraquack

Mine is 6.5 CF and on a dry camping trip (no electric hook ups or water hook ups) I hooked up a 20 pound propane tank to my motorhome so I could take the small tank in for refills if necessary. A 20 LB tank is supposed to be a little less than 5 gallons. I didn't use the hot water heater, so the only thing on the tank was the fridge. At the end of the 2 weeks (day time temps were in the 90s+) I still had propane left in the tank. Now I don't bother with the small tank. The propane in the refrigerators is used for a kind of big pilot light that runs pretty well 24/7.


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## HuntingHawk

If you don't have to chill much, this might be an option. Or set up with more then one of them.


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## budgetprepp-n




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## paraquack

HuntingHawk said:


> If you don't have to chill much, this might be an option. Or set up with more then one of them.


These work very well, but they only drop the temperature by about 40 degrees. If it's 100 deg. outside, the temp in the cooler is 60 deg. If the temp outside is 70 deg, the cooler gets to 30 deg. There are coolers, not refrigerators. Plan accordingly to keep in the shade, needs plenty of free ventilation, but they do work and are pretty reliable. I have used one while traveling in an air conditioned van to cool soda, etc. and it did a great job.


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## budgetprepp-n

paraquack said:


> These work very well, but they only drop the temperature by about 40 degrees. If it's 100 deg. outside, the temp in the cooler is 60 deg. If the temp outside is 70 deg, the cooler gets to 30 deg. There are coolers, not refrigerators. Plan accordingly to keep in the shade, needs plenty of free ventilation, but they do work and are pretty reliable. I have used one while traveling in an air conditioned van to cool soda, etc. and it did a great job.


 So,, If I have one or two of these in the basement where it stays cool all the time keeping some milk or eggs 
fresh should not be a problem? after TSHTF eggs milk fresh meat and stuff like that shouldn't be a problem for me to get 
keeping it fresh is what I'm trying to figure out. how many watts or amps do one of these use?


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## PrepConsultant

Here is a link I just came across and I thought you might be interested in it.

Freezer-fridge conversion update | Living Off the Grid: Free Yourself

I would much rather have a freezer than a fridge. You can keep food for longer and it uses a lot less power.


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## budgetprepp-n

randy grider said:


> u need a propane fridge, too much electric drain for an electric one. Hot water as well.


 I have had a few campers and they had the refrigerators that would run on propane, 110, or 12 volt.
And some of them were the late model stuff. And they all sucked up propane or 12 volt like crazy. 
I'm looking for something renewable when the shtf where am I going to get propane a year later?
I have a few 100 pound tanks filled but that's just till I get an outside wood fired bread oven built for baking my bread,
I hope to bake and sell bread. If your looking at a bol for long term you need something renewable.


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## Prepadoodle

I've been thinking about refrigeration for awhile now, and something just hit me...

In the good old days before they had electricity, back when you had to surf the net by candlelight, they used to cut ice from rivers and lakes and store it in ice houses. If I remember right, they would pack it in sawdust to insulate it. In the summer, the ice man would deliver it to your house so you could put it into your icebox to keep things cold. Hmmmmmm

Now I damn sure don't want to go saw ice blocks from the lake and then have to haul them all the way home, but I was thinking...

If you had an insulated shed, you could pack it full of containers, open it to the winter air and let them freeze. One cubic foot of ice is about 57 pounds, so if you were going to use 1/2 cubic foot of ice per day (about 28 pounds) for 200 days of the year, the structure could be 5' X 5' X 4', which wouldn't be that hard to build. If I was gonna do this, I would build a Larson truss wall system about 12" thick and fill it with dense pack cellulose insulation. This would give me about an R 40 wall, and the Larson system has less insulation breaks than a traditional wall. I would build this little building on the north side of my house or in-ground, and rig some sort of shade over it.

I don't think I would do this for "normal times" refrigeration, but in a SHTF scenario, this no-tech, EMP proof method would be worth a closer look.


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## PalmettoTree

When off the grid the two best ways to keep meat is a smokehouse and salt.

Surely you do joy think people off the grid expect to love long lives.


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## HuntingHawk

If you are in a climate & area it can be done, a cold cellar should work. That is where mountain folk kept their eggs & milk.


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## HuntingHawk

Don't forget that with a LP gas refrigerator, you have to vent the exhaust.


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## GTGallop

HuntingHawk said:


> Don't forget that with a LP gas refrigerator, you have to vent the exhaust.


Don't forget that when you vent heat you are visible on FLIR.


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## budgetprepp-n

Ok ,,,,,,,
well once again you all have pitched in and I have my answer. After listening to what everyone said and even prodding it a little 
I did a lot checking and the answer to low power supply refrigeration is a surprize.
The best thing going is a small freezer with the door on top converted to a refrigerator. I know I know sound nuts but it seems to be true
the kits to convert them are about $40 and easy to find online. I guess that if you get a small one like 3.5 cubic inch the power draw is so
small that it makes it feasible to use even if your solar system isn't a monster.


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## HuntingHawk

Johnson Controls A19AAT-2C Freezer Temperature Controller


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## Montana Rancher

budgetprepp-n said:


> Ok ,,,,,,,
> well once again you all have pitched in and I have my answer. After listening to what everyone said and even prodding it a little
> I did a lot checking and the answer to low power supply refrigeration is a surprize.
> The best thing going is a small freezer with the door on top converted to a refrigerator. I know I know sound nuts but it seems to be true
> the kits to convert them are about $40 and easy to find online. I guess that if you get a small one like 3.5 cubic inch the power draw is so
> small that it makes it feasible to use even if your solar system isn't a monster.


Your welcome


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## HuntingHawk

I chose not going that route because in Florida you really need ice.

As a matter of fact, it part of my SHTF barter. I have a rain collection & storeage system. Plus water filtration system. Purified water into plastic jugs & frozen & there is my trade material.


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## paraquack

HuntingHawk said:


> I chose not going that route because in Florida you really need ice.
> 
> As a matter of fact, it part of my SHTF barter. I have a rain collection & storeage system. Plus water filtration system. Purified water into plastic jugs & frozen & there is my trade material.


Ok, you got plenty of ice, but what about the Margaritas?


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## HuntingHawk

pina coladas as prefer run to tekillya.


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