# Money in the bank,,,,Why?



## budgetprepp-n

Hi all,
I have a small savings in the bank. Why is it in the bank? Inflation is growing faster than the interest rate.
So I am being robbed by inflation? And is my money save there? 

To me it looks like having money in the bank is wishful thinking. 
I think it may be time to pull my money out and invest it in silver. Not the paper stuff the real hard core stuff.
Silver is down and may even go lower, But I'm in it for the long haul and we all know it will come back up.
If I do need to buy a big ticket item I can discreetly convert some silver into cash-- Might take a day or two.
Am I looking at this wrong?


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## Inor

*Disclaimer:* I am just a dumb computer dork and have no business giving financial advice!

That being said, if you have any debts, pay those off first. That means not just credit cards, but car loans, mortgage, etc. No, I do not absolutely practice what I preach. I still owe about $20K on my house and have built up some stores of PMs. But the point is, do not be enslaved to the credit man and be investing heavily in ANYTHING.

I do not view my purchases of silver or gold as something that I would ever sell. Those are intended only to give to my kids, upon my death or to be used for barter if SHTF. In other words, I do not view it as an investment for myself or Mrs Inor.

I do keep some Canadian cash on hand, mainly because I go to Canada frequently, but also because they partially back their currency with a basket of commodities. Right now, the Loony is down against the US Dollar. So it is not a bad time to jump in (in my arrogant opinion) if you have done your research and are comfortable with the Canadian central bank.


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## PalmettoTree

My PMs are for never spending. Why not put your money in a DRIP with your local electric utility? You can have it bill you a little extra every month. They will invest it in the company stock without charging you a commission. When you cash out there is usually a small fee $25 or so.

Most electric or gas utilities pay a good dividend and increase it regularly.

If you are talking about tens of thousands of dollars or less that is my advice. If you are talking about over a hundred thousand dollars... That is a longer discussion.


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## inceptor

Inor said:


> *Disclaimer:* I am just a dumb computer dork and have no business giving financial advice!
> 
> That being said, if you have any debts, pay those off first. That means not just credit cards, but car loans, mortgage, etc. No, I do not absolutely practice what I preach. I still owe about $20K on my house and have built up some stores of PMs. But the point is, do not be enslaved to the credit man and be investing heavily in ANYTHING.
> 
> I do not view my purchases of silver or gold as something that I would ever sell. Those are intended only to give to my kids, upon my death or to be used for barter if SHTF. In other words, I do not view it as an investment for myself or Mrs Inor.
> 
> I do keep some Canadian cash on hand, mainly because I go to Canada frequently, but also because they partially back their currency with a basket of commodities. Right now, the Loony is down against the US Dollar. So it is not a bad time to jump in (in my arrogant opinion) if you have done your research and are comfortable with the Canadian central bank.


Agreed. I didn't start with PM's until we had everything paid off. Debt free also feels good. I was nearly 60 when it happened and it took a long time to get here but it is a load off.


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## Ripon

1). My pay check and that of my wife goes to a bank directly. After each one we use the bank service to pay bills on line. Utilities, insurances, and I use an ATM card for gas and store purchases. I rack up some savings and 4x a year (5 if I get nervous) I use free banking services to dump any extra money into my self directed IRA account. The only savings I might have except there is for something like the vehicle we just added. Right now I'm saving to $1600 for a 1500 watt solar panel package I found. Should get it ordered by months end


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## Reptilicus

A very good question... WHY???? When there are so many other alternatives where your deposits and withdraws can't be tracked or questioned! Other than the IRS knowing my reported income, my business IS my business!!!!


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## Casie

budgetprepp-n said:


> Hi all,
> I have a small savings in the bank. Why is it in the bank? Inflation is growing faster than the interest rate.
> So I am being robbed by inflation? And is my money save there?


Howdy BP'n

_I'm going to skip the disclaimer because you already got it from some other very wise posts above mine, (and I'm going to assume you know that asking for financial advice on a message board is an actual sign of insanity) but there is no harm in talking theoretically about things. After all that's why we are all here.
_








According to usinflationcalculator.com if you bought a self-sealing stem bolt in 1980 for $20, that same sssb would cost you $56.99 today. That is a cumulative rate of inflation of 184.9%. Personally I think this number is substantially low, but lets just go with it.

Last year alone the FED "printed" (They don't really print anything. They just add zeros to a massive banking system.) $85 billion a month. That's 1 trillion dollars magically created from nothing in 2013.

That means every dollar you have saved away was lessened in value. Combine it with their Zero Percent Interest savings accounts and what you have is theft right out of your account... right out of your pocket.

FED printing and ZIRP are blatant, shameless, ****ing THEFT.

Is your money safe in a bank? Depends on what you consider safe. Also keep in mind, banks in Europe HAVE been talking about negative interest rate accounts, meaning banks would love to start eating away your savings if they get in financial trouble. And do I have to mention Cypress?

But, my account is protected by the FDIC! Surprise! There is 370 times more money in deposits at US banks than the size of the Federal Deposit Insurance Fund. In fact the FDIC almost went bankrupt during the 2008/9 crisis.

So where should we put our hard earned dollars?

Land? Real Estate? Sounds good. Maybe you could even get lucky and find some reasonably priced property that may be able to hold it's value. Except that at any time, property taxes can skyrocket and psycho lawmakers can steal your properties right out from underneath you.

Gold? Silver? PMs are awesome! Unless of course they continued to be tyrannically manipulated by fake paper trades. And the government could always just declare bullion illegal. It's been done before.

Bitcoin? Too stupid to even write a sentence about in my opinion. I liked the idea of transactions without banks. But seriously, you think a crypto currency that logs every single transaction ever made is not going to be 100% controlled by some NWO group? I suspect we'll discover Satoshi-Bitcoin-San was always just some NSA guys playing with code.

Pay off debt? Always wise. Unless you believe, like the FED, that debt is wealth. War is peace. Slavery is freedom.

Food/Guns/Ammo/Supplies? Ask yourself, "Will I be able to buy this for less in the future? Can I actually use it now? Will I need it in the future?" Then maybe it's something to look into.

Stocks/Bonds? Buy the highs and sell the lows! No thanks. Remember,when playing poker look around the table and identify the "mark". If you can't find one. It's you.

401ks/IRAs? I used to be very worried about these. I am positive they will be "managed" by government soon, just like healthcare. But when Obama set up the MyRA accounts recently I calmed down a tiny bit. Anyone can open up an IRA and buy US treasury bonds, although why they would want to is a total mystery. MyRA is absolutely the first step in government stealing retirement accounts, but it looks like it will take them a few more years to get the structure set up to do it. You might even be able to make like $2 a year with that sweet sweet MyRa account! And he's pushing that crap on the most vulnerable savers, the young and the working poor. It's ****ing sick.

Did I leave anything out? Basically, I've just bored the hell out of you... just to say, "There is no where to go. No where to hide. No safe haven."

You want to see how ridiculously close to edge we are? US Threatens Russia Over Petrodollar-Busting Deal:
US Threatens Russia Over Petrodollar-Busting Deal | Zero Hedge
Are we shitting our pants because of Russia's actions in the Ukraine? No. Are we going full retard because of Russia's role in Syria? Nope.
We are literally freaking out because one sovereign country wants to make an oil deal with another sovereign country WITHOUT using the almighty petro dollar.

Who else tried to sell oil for gold? Saddam. Muammar. Hosni. Assad. And that my friends is why we arab-springed them to death (or are currently still trying to). And that is also why Obama loves the Saudis so much. They take American Expres... I mean they can't get enough of those sweet sweet FED dollars.

You guys feel free to attack my theories! It won't hurt my feelings. I WANT to be wrong. Seriously, I do.








Here. This always makes me feel better.


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## Arizona Infidel

Actually, I think you pretty much hit it on the head.


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## Slippy

Casie,
Excellent post.


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## Smitty901

Each has their own system. Some ready cash is needed. Mutual funds with a no load company that invest in a wide range of products. Depending on your views. You use it like a saving account. When you need to make a purchase you call 1800 send me some of my money.
They sell at the close of the day next day you money is deposited. Mean while the funds you have there earn a good return and are reasonably 
protected from declines.
Example We use a midcap fund as a saving account for cars and Motorcycles payments go into it each month when it comes time to replace a car or bike , we simply sell enough shares to cover the purchase.


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## Chipper

Great post Casie. That's why I no longer work 40 plus hours a week and have no money in a bank. I'm not wasting my life chasing a buck.


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## PalmettoTree

Casie, your post is a rationalization for doing nothing about your future financial wellbeing. What kind of plan do you call your post. It is not even a plan for survival.

Every opportunity has risk. That is why the old cliche, "don't put all your eggs in one basket" is a good axiom.

When you buy shares in a company listed on stock market you are buying shares in a company or group of companies (ETF). Such a purchase is the equivalent to saying. This company or group will be worth more tomorrow than it is today. Too many people buy companies that are not profitable and have less than zero net worth. When the price of such companies drops they say, "rigged!" The truth is such people failed to do their homework.

This is no different than those that purchased silver at $34. They listened to those saying buy now before the price goes even higher. They failed to look at the charts dating back to the last huge run up in price. They failed to ask what is the functional worth of silver?

Everyone should have 4 plans. A now plan; a 20 year plan; a retirement plan; and a pass on plan.


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## Slippy

My plan for today is the 3 W's---Work, Whiskey and Woman...


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## Inor

Cassie -

That is some thinkin'... Atta boy girl.


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## Smitty901

Slippy said:


> My plan for today is the 3 W's---Work, Whiskey and Woman...


 I heard it said a man spent most of his money on Harleys, women and drinking, the rest he just wasted.


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## shotlady

I have the same problem. I think I do... or im just trying to justify another gun or bulk ammo purchase to myself. only you can determine what you value and what you feel best doing... just my 2 cents worth- adjusted for inflation.


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## StarPD45

Slippy said:


> My plan for today is the 3 W's---Work, Whiskey and Woman...


Are you sure it's in that order? :razz:


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## budgetprepp-n

I am convinced that tshtf will happen. No doubt about it in my mind. And I don't think it will be that long.
I also bleave if you can't hold it in your hand you don't own it. 
I don't owe anyone anything. My home is paid for. No credit card dept to speak of.--maybe $200 at times
What will happen to all the investments where someone else is holding your money when shtf? 
I'm a little scared to do any long or short term investment on any kind of paper. 
If you knew without a doubt that a collapse was going to happen tomorrow where would want your money?
I want to be ready as possible with in reason, That's why I'm at this forum. 
bleave<--how do you spell that?


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## budgetprepp-n

shotlady said:


> I have the same problem. I think I do... or im just trying to justify another gun or bulk ammo purchase to myself. only you can determine what you value and what you feel best doing... just my 2 cents worth- adjusted for inflation.


 if you adjust your .02 for inflation you would owe the government about a dollar


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## Smitty901

SHTF big time all bets are off Gold silver are just a death warrant fro you. SHTF Security, food water place to call home in safety. And more security are all that will madder.


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## budgetprepp-n

Smitty901 said:


> SHTF big time all bets are off Gold silver are just a death warrant fro you. SHTF Security, food water place to call home in safety. And more security are all that will madder.


 So if silver and gold would be a warrant for your death then you agree that silver and gold will have value?


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## Casie

PalmettoTree said:


> Casie, your post is a rationalization for doing nothing about your future financial wellbeing. What kind of plan do you call your post. It is not even a plan for survival.
> 
> When you buy shares in a company listed on stock market you are buying shares in a company or group of companies (ETF). Such a purchase is the equivalent to saying. This company or group will be worth more tomorrow than it is today. Too many people buy companies that are not profitable and have less than zero net worth. When the price of such companies drops they say, "rigged!" The truth is such people failed to do their homework.


The stock market? There is no stock market. There is a massive, overblown, FED inflated, algo running, HFT ponzi scheme called the stock market. There are giant wall street buildings that once held thousands of busy busy traders. Now,most of these buildings have been completely gutted. Their floors have been reinforced and huge banks of computers fill their rooms. The trading floor isn't even as crowded as my kitchen in the mornings.
















_But using computers is great!_ Sure it is. These awesome algos have the capability to pump and dump stocks in a fraction of a second. They are cheating the system and they are not doing it for you and me.

_But you could really really do your homework and invest in a strong stock and go long!_

How are you going to do that again? For the last 4 years GOOD economic news sends the market down. BAD news sends the market up. Apple (AAPL) reports great first quarter numbers! Stock plummets. Why? Because Bernake/Yellen pumps more QE in on bad news and threatens tapering on good news. Up is down. War is peace. Debt is wealth. Holder told us the big banks are too big to fail. And then he told us they are too big to jail. He gave them permission to screw investors harder and faster than ever.

The big players don't mind you going along for the ride, but don't fool yourself. You don't get to win. *You get to climb your way back from the 2008/9 crash and you get to make a few dollars from the QE pumping. Dollars that are worth less and less because of the QE pumping.* Its a nasty mess.

I got a fun fact for ya! Did you know the Zimbabwe stock market was still up up up, even as Zimbabwe's dollar was inflating about 215% in a single day? _"Zimbabwe, once a regional breadbasket, is staggering amid the world's worst inflation, a looming humanitarian emergency and worsening shortages of food, gasoline and most basic goods. Inflation is at 231 million percent, but some experts put it more at about 20 trillion percent."_ But the Zimbabwe stock market was UP! YAY! Meaningless.

I don't want to be the annoying jerk that talks bad about everything. I really don't! And I never wanted to sound like Ann Barnhardt, who I am pretty sure sure is bat-shit crazy. But the dollar is NOT ok.

And deep down we all know this right? We're not planting gardens and fruit trees because we are really really bored. We left Walmart one day with a few bags and said "Dammit! You gotta be kidding me!".

So there's my painfully clear financial advice. Depend less on the FEDs dollar. Learn to grow it. Fix it. Build it. Hunt it. Sew it. And protect it.

Again, I apologize for ranting. Economics and finance are my sore spot. It makes me livid how criminal the FED is. And I am sincerely ok if you think I am completely wrong. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all, if you think me an idiot. I WANT to be wrong.


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## shotlady

Let me ask this. in 1 yr I am quitting my job and moving. in my 401k I am 100% vested. my boss matches 50%. I was thinking to triple down, get some of that free money and cash in when I quit. because I don't trust the 401k. I am also of the opinion that something is around the corner and money in the bank or 401k wont help me much. but what if nothing happens and I did nothing for my future? right now im saving everything I can to make my move more comfortable. so I can be up to 4 months no gig. id like to get one right away so I can have money in the bank I sure do like knowing that padding is there. so im going to do everthing I can to sidestep the urge to purchage more guns right now. I know my choices will be many after the move. right now getting out of ca is my priority.


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## Smitty901

budgetprepp-n said:


> So if silver and gold would be a warrant for your death then you agree that silver and gold will have value?


 It will always have value the problem to who and what can you do with it. The Hunt brother history like all history has been rewritten.
What happen to silver prices then can happen just as easy now. Same with Gold. If you think a box of gold or silver is going to carry the day you are wrong. 
The last time Gold did a major jump silver followed. As people could no longer afford gold they switch to silver. Then reckoning day came.
Prices went back to a more market reality level, people lost their tails and it stayed like that for a long time now it doing the same thing it did last time. Gold got to high people put their cash back in the markets for now.
If a person wants silver they should buy real coins, at least they can be traded bought and sold off the tax system, they are legal tender.
Prepare for SHTF but also prepare for a long ride in a tough world.


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## Slippy

shotlady said:


> Let me ask this. in 1 yr I am quitting my job and moving. in my 401k I am 100% vested. my boss matches 50%. I was thinking to triple down, get some of that free money and cash in when I quit. because I don't trust the 401k. I am also of the opinion that something is around the corner and money in the bank or 401k wont help me much. but what if nothing happens and I did nothing for my future? right now im saving everything I can to make my move more comfortable. so I can be up to 4 months no gig. id like to get one right away so I can have money in the bank I sure do like knowing that padding is there. so im going to do everthing I can to sidestep the urge to purchage more guns right now. I know my choices will be many after the move. right now getting out of ca is my priority.


Shotlady, 
PLEASE...do your own research regarding the tax implications of cashing out a 401(k). I believe it is a 10% penalty and then everything else is taxed at your current rate...unless you are 59 1/2 years old. (which I don't think you are, 29 if I had to guess..)

Anyway, there are some options for you; a rollover into a IRA or maybe a Roth IRA. You can then choose what investments to participate. Also there is a product called a Self Directed IRA, I remember someone mentioning this a few times... Maybe it was Ripon? Anyway you can still defer some taxation and possibly get your funds into something that may be more "safe" is there is such a thing.

Good luck.


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## tango

Gold and silver bullion is, IMO, a bad idea for shtf.
Gold and silver money is a good idea for shtf.
Us currency will be acceptable, even in a barter situation.
Ya gotta be smart about how you handle it--


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## PalmettoTree

It sounds to me like you got hurt badly in the market. Based on your comments the reason you lost money is you do not understand money; trade for goods and services, and forces that supply liquidity to the market.

I'm sorry for your loss. Just because you lost or do not understand the makeup of today's global economics does not make it a Ponzi scheme.

These high speed algorithm traders are today's day traders of yesterday year. This to shall pass. Today's market works efficiently and there is more liquidity in the market than ever before. This enables us small investors to get in or out of a position faster than I can hit the refresh button.

Are there some bad rules? Yes, I favor the up-tic rule for short positions.

There are some good rules also. Some of these high speed traders will either go bankrupt or prohibited from trading if they are caught muni plating the market. Just as the Hunt brothers went bankrupt manipulating silver.

There was a time when the market ran up prior to Thanksgiving. Then sold off before Christmas. It was easy to sell the 3 days prior to thanks giving. Then buy back your keepers before Christmas or New Years. That worked about 2 or 3 years. 

Good people that do not understand what they are doing get hurt. It does not matter if you are driving a nail; driving a car or driving your investment account.

I do not understand google, Apple or any tech companies. I do not invest in them because I do not understand them.. I understand Microsoft. I do not invest in it because I understand it. I understand energy, moving energy, making energy. That is why I invest in some of them and not others.

Many of you are sure a SHTF is coming soon. What is soon? No one is sure how it will come.

I think many of you will have a personal SHTF when your body becomes old. You will have prepped yourself for the wrong catastrophe. PMs are not the answer. Just ask the guy that rolled his retirement account into silver at $34. Ask the guy that bought at $20 last year and needs to sell at $20 a year or two later.

We all both believe and fear things that we hope to be wrong about.


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## budgetprepp-n

tango said:


> Gold and silver bullion is, IMO, a bad idea for shtf.
> Gold and silver money is a good idea for shtf.
> Us currency will be acceptable, even in a barter situation.
> Ya gotta be smart about how you handle it--


 yes agree,, My silver is older US coins 1964 and older - Easy to buy easy to sell recognizable
and easy to keep off the radar.


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## Casie

PalmettoTree said:


> It sounds to me like you got hurt badly in the market. Based on your comments the reason you lost money is you do not understand money; trade for goods and services, and forces that supply liquidity to the market.


Howdy PT
I don't know if this was directed at me. But if it was, please don't think that I'm some bitter uneducated woman who is confused and angry. I hope I didn't come off that way. I tried to make my points as factual and useful as possible. But it is true I am outraged by the theft and corruption that is rampant in our economic system and I may have used a curse word or two. Ultimately, everyone has to decide what positions are best for them. But I think its important to let people know, nothing right now is safe.

My uncle bought me my first stocks when I was 12. It was something to watch, and a way he could teach me about finance. But what I see happening today... is a scam. And I consider myself very blessed to have a professional adviser in the family.

I wish you much success and prosperity, my friend! May we all end up fat and happy millionaires. I'm just sheltering in much calmer waters, for now. (And leaving a few replies to interesting posts.)


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## Inor

Casie said:


> Howdy PT
> I don't know if this was directed at me. But if it was, please don't think that I'm some bitter uneducated woman who is confused and angry. I hope I didn't come off that way. I tried to make my points as factual and useful as possible. But it is true I am outraged by the theft and corruption that is rampant in our economic system and I may have used a curse word or two. Ultimately, everyone has to decide what positions are best for them. But I think its important to let people know, nothing right now is safe.
> 
> My uncle bought me my first stocks when I was 12. It was something to watch, and a way he could teach me about finance. But what I see happening today... is a scam. And I consider myself very blessed to have a professional adviser in the family.
> 
> I wish you much success and prosperity, my friend! May we all end up fat and happy millionaires. I'm just sheltering in much calmer waters, for now. (And leaving a few replies to interesting posts.)


Casie -

You have obviously done some home work. I agree Ann Barnhardt is crazy as a 7-year itch. But I cannot help myself from going to her blog every couple of months just to see what she is ranting on lately. She does make some sense from time to time as well. (Okay not often anymore, but sometimes...)

I will not reiterate any of your points, because I agree with them completely and I cannot state them any more succinctly than you already have. But suffice it to say that I am a fan.


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## Casie

Inor said:


> I agree Ann Barnhardt is crazy as a 7-year itch. But I cannot help myself from going to her blog every couple of months just to see what she is ranting on lately. She does make some sense from time to time as well. (Okay not often anymore, but sometimes...)


Oh my gosh Inor, I used to see an Ann interview linked on wealth.net or someplace and laugh a little. And then in the end of 2011 she started posting all those articles and videos. I was like, "Hahaha. Wait. What? Oh shit."

And the funniest part is, we used to only hear this talk from people like Ann or Faber (sometimes Jim Sinclair). But now we've got Michael Lewis showing up on CBS news talking about how rigged the markets are! And what about that cat-fight on CNBC between Whats-His-Face and Katsuyama?! I'm guessing all the talking heads will start pointing fingers as we near the breaking point. No one is going to want to take the blame for this mess! And _everyone _is going to want to claim they saw it coming.


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## PalmettoTree

It is both common and popular to look at the past as if any or all of it was virtuous and just. It never was and never will be.

I can remember when the commissions for buying stock was more than I had to invest in a month. I can remember when commissions were higher if you did not buy a "block" of shares. A block was 100 shares of a single company.

The average working people were truly blocked from participating in the market.

Most not most almost every person is ignorant to the fact that hurting the gold standard working people had almost no money. The money supply was so small that farmers could hardly sell their crops. The Wizard Oz is an allegory on the evils of the gold standard and it's control and corruption.

The job of money is to be a medium for the free market exchange of goods and services. It is not intended to store value such that the hundred dollars your mother hid in 1950 will buy the same things today when you happen to find it. A dollar is backed by what ever you can buy with it today. For money to be available to working people there must be a large enough supply to meet the demand for it.

As the US dollar becomes increasingly more trusted and thereby used as the measure of global value the money supply must be increased to meet that growing demand. Note the previous use of the word "trusted". This is relative trust. There are many, many people in the US that lack trust in our money. But those numbers are few when weighted against the relative trust the US dollar has globally. 

Be reminded that even when silver or gold coins were used as money they were money by fiat. It is popular to point out how monarchs and rulers devalued their money to increase government spending. That is a fact but there is a larger uncommented on fact. The greater population also devalued those coins by filing the edges to accumulate silver and gold dust. That dust was used as money based on the weight established by fiat and or the black market.

Regardless the value of the money then as now was set by what you could buy with it.

PMs like any other commodity have always had value but that value has never been fixed or constant. It is popular to claim the value of PMs has been constant. This is a lie. There is...(I'll finish later)


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## Inor

Casie said:


> Oh my gosh Inor, I used to see an Ann interview linked on wealth.net or someplace and laugh a little. And then in the end of 2011 she started posting all those articles and videos. I was like, "Hahaha. Wait. What? Oh shit."
> 
> And the funniest part is, we used to only hear this talk from people like Ann or Faber (sometimes Jim Sinclair). But now we've got Michael Lewis showing up on CBS news talking about how rigged the markets are! And what about that cat-fight on CNBC between Whats-His-Face and Katsuyama?! I'm guessing all the talking heads will start pointing fingers as we near the breaking point. No one is going to want to take the blame for this mess! And _everyone _is going to want to claim they saw it coming.


I do feel sorry for Ann. When I first stumbled across a couple of her videos about 4-5 years ago, she seemed like nice young lady that seemed to have some intelligence (and a different perspective). I watched a couple of her videos about a year ago and HOLY CRAP! In one she was dressed up as some character from Lord of the Rings and was smoking a pipe while trying to talk seriously about the economy! I do not know what happened, but I think she has some connections in her brain that got seriously messed up somehow.

But you are correct, as the wheels continue to come off, the finger pointing is only going to increase. It is kind of fun to watch though. I saw an interview with that little twerp Jim Cramer a couple weeks ago where he was almost sounding like a Republican. What a difference 5 years makes eh?


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## Casie

Inor said:


> I saw an interview with that little twerp Jim Cramer a couple weeks ago where he was almost sounding like a Republican. What a difference 5 years makes eh?


Seriously!


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## PalmettoTree

... There is no better proof than the silver bubble caused by the Hunt brothers or the PM bubble caused by the fraudulent Libertarians of today.

I say fraudulent because any honest student of libertarian philosophy knows libertarianism is being free from and an absence of the force of governments of any kind. A true and honest libertarian would argue for this philosophy and abstain from participating in any form of government. They would see anything from voting to holding office as a fraud. They would comply with laws and pay taxes only because they are against force against individuals even those acting as agents of the government. But back to the subject...

It has been alleged that the stock market is corrupt or a Ponzi Scheme. I have already pointed out some of the past shortcomings of previous systems but to use that here would be no more than a rationalization. I will not defend wrong.

I will say that there will always be wrong. As individuals we must attempt to grow our standard of living or wealth in spite of such an environment while not committing wrong ourselves. I want to make this distinction. Using a law we might feel is ill advised is not committing a wrong.

Let me use baseball as an example. I believe the "designated hitter rule" is an abomination. However if I were hired as an American League coach I would use it. My job would be to win baseball games. 

As I have said in previous post current rules for shorting stock are wrong. Therefore when I hold a position I must either hold tight stop limits to my disadvantage or be willing to ride out a period of unjustified fall in prices. These are not reasons or abandoning participation saying the stock market is rigged.

Then there is the current fad of high speed high volume trading. These people are creating unnecessary noise in the market but they also help us little investors get our trades executed quickly. My guess the markets will put a stop to huge volumes traders from making sell and buy transactions (trades more than three standard deviations over average volume) quickly from the same IP address. Again unchecked such trading will become increasingly problematic but not rigged.

Now to tie the monetary policy (Fed) of increasing and decreasing the money supply and impacts on the stock market. First the Fed's charter is outdated. The charter is based on our once relatively closed nation economic theory. It was sound theory at the time and worked relatively well for decades. That is not to say it ever could replace or overcome supply and demand imbalances in the market place.

If the charter still worked we would have full employment and runaway inflation as a result of recent QEs. (Some of you will argue we do have excessive inflation.) Regardless of how we characterization it, I submit the cause is demand. We have demand driven inflation. Part of this excessive demand is unearned consumption aka welfare, food stamps, etc. The other part of this demand inflation is the rising global standard of living.

So I contend it is not the Fed that is the problem. I reject the argument that the fed has caused increases in stock market price and I reject the idea QE has increased supermarket prices. I reject the assertion that these have caused a rigged stock market. I think I have given reasoned basis for these conclusions and have cited reasoned factual examples as to why many of today's popular attacks are false.

I understand it is difficult for many to understand the abstract idea that money is not backed by some valuable commodity somewhere. They can easily accept the notion that for convince we use paper backed by the commodity. I contend a commodity backed paper currency is far more open to fraud and corruption than the current system. Evidence is the distrust expressed here in silver contracts be they ETFs or PM futures.

Anyway if you have actually read all of both of my post, thank you.


----------



## Slippy

You had me at...I believe the "designated hitter rule" is an abomination. Best line of the day. 

The rest was songbirds, flowers and sunshine...zippadee do da, zippadee day..?


----------



## Seneca

I don't think having a little money in the bank is going to hurt anything. Rainy day funds. 

I do however believe it is important to get ones debt (if you have it) under control. Pay it off and don't create any more if you can help it. 

If the monetary system tanks which it might, what you owe on is at risk. What you own is safe. 

I can see having a little gold and silver as a reserve as long as buying it doesn't take food off the table.


----------



## Inor

_"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." _


----------



## Montana Rancher

budgetprepp-n said:


> Hi all,
> I have a small savings in the bank. Why is it in the bank? Inflation is growing faster than the interest rate.
> So I am being robbed by inflation? And is my money save there?
> 
> To me it looks like having money in the bank is wishful thinking.
> I think it may be time to pull my money out and invest it in silver. Not the paper stuff the real hard core stuff.
> Silver is down and may even go lower, But I'm in it for the long haul and we all know it will come back up.
> If I do need to buy a big ticket item I can discreetly convert some silver into cash-- Might take a day or two.
> Am I looking at this wrong?


I did read through a couple pages of the responses before I posted this, so here goes

IMO if you have a money in the bank, your single best purchase will be silver coins purchased in cash from a local dealer. I was amazed after doing almost NO shopping that my local dealer matched the mail order houses and they often had it in stock.

If you have a mortgage on your house or some credit debt refer to rule 1 above as, when PM's take off you can pay off your debt with inflated precious metals prices which to me is a win-win.

And yes having money in the bank is wishful thinking, if it is in savings just take it out in the form of greenbacks, even that is better than the system we have. When it hits the fan and you have $2k in actual money, you will be spending it as other people are standing around the ATM.

If you can find a deal I suggest "junk" silver in the form of old (pre 65) 90% silver quarters, dimes, half dollars and dollars. Those used to be available for about their melt value in silver but now they are priced higher over spot than bullion (bullion is like silver eagles, Canadian 1 ounce coins) FYI don't get "bars" of silver, suckers bet.

So to summarize, go local, and check out your coin dealers. You can get American eagles at about $4 over spot price, Canadians about $3.50 over spot price. At this point buying junk silver is hard to do and expensive, unless you really do the math, it may not be the best buy.

Roll of Morgan Silver Dollars 1882 1921 90 Silver 20 Coins | eBay

I was buying better grade coins than this 4 years ago for $360 per 20.

Inflation my ass, it is the dollar deflation that is creating this problem.

BTW buying high grade morgan or liberty dollars has a big problem with them being counterfeit. AU means "Almost Uncirculated" and BU means "brilliant uncirculated" and IMO you should avoid buying "junk" silver with those designations as they have a high likelihood of being forged.


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## budgetprepp-n

Right now 16 to 1 is the going rate


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## PalmettoTree

Everyone hs a different comfort zone there is a ton of good advice given above. I say learn from everyone copy no one. I took us away from the original question and I apologize for that.


----------



## budgetprepp-n

PalmettoTree said:


> Everyone hs a different comfort zone there is a ton of good advice given above. I say learn from everyone copy no one. I took us away from the original question and I apologize for that.


 I see no reason to apologize for anything,,,,,,Some of the best quoits and advice come from rogue threads.


----------



## budgetprepp-n

Montana Rancher said:


> I did read through a couple pages of the responses before I posted this, so here goes
> 
> IMO if you have a money in the bank, your single best purchase will be silver coins purchased in cash from a local dealer. I was amazed after doing almost NO shopping that my local dealer matched the mail order houses and they often had it in stock.
> 
> If you have a mortgage on your house or some credit debt refer to rule 1 above as, when PM's take off you can pay off your debt with inflated precious metals prices which to me is a win-win.
> 
> And yes having money in the bank is wishful thinking, if it is in savings just take it out in the form of greenbacks, even that is better than the system we have. When it hits the fan and you have $2k in actual money, you will be spending it as other people are standing around the ATM.
> 
> If you can find a deal I suggest "junk" silver in the form of old (pre 65) 90% silver quarters, dimes, half dollars and dollars. Those used to be available for about their melt value in silver but now they are priced higher over spot than bullion (bullion is like silver eagles, Canadian 1 ounce coins) FYI don't get "bars" of silver, suckers bet.
> 
> So to summarize, go local, and check out your coin dealers. You can get American eagles at about $4 over spot price, Canadians about $3.50 over spot price. At this point buying junk silver is hard to do and expensive, unless you really do the math, it may not be the best buy.
> 
> Roll of Morgan Silver Dollars 1882 1921 90 Silver 20 Coins | eBay
> 
> I was buying better grade coins than this 4 years ago for $360 per 20.
> 
> Inflation my ass, it is the dollar deflation that is creating this problem.
> 
> BTW buying high grade morgan or liberty dollars has a big problem with them being counterfeit. AU means "Almost Uncirculated" and BU means "brilliant uncirculated" and IMO you should avoid buying "junk" silver with those designations as they have a high likelihood of being forged.


 I agree that a little money in the bank for everyday expenses is a good thing- And helps keep you off the radar

I don't know enough about counterfeit coins to feel comfortable buying anything except mostly old dimes and quarters.
And it may be hard to make change for the bigger dominations.


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## Deebo

Casie said:


> Howdy BP'n
> 
> _I'm going to skip the disclaimer because you already got it from some other very wise posts above mine, (and I'm going to assume you know that asking for financial advice on a message board is an actual sign of insanity) but there is no harm in talking theoretically about things. After all that's why we are all here.
> _
> 
> View attachment 4945
> 
> According to usinflationcalculator.com if you bought a self-sealing stem bolt in 1980 for $20, that same sssb would cost you $56.99 today. That is a cumulative rate of inflation of 184.9%. Personally I think this number is substantially low, but lets just go with it.
> 
> Last year alone the FED "printed" (They don't really print anything. They just add zeros to a massive banking system.) $85 billion a month. That's 1 trillion dollars magically created from nothing in 2013.
> 
> That means every dollar you have saved away was lessened in value. Combine it with their Zero Percent Interest savings accounts and what you have is theft right out of your account... right out of your pocket.
> 
> FED printing and ZIRP are blatant, shameless, ****ing THEFT.
> 
> Is your money safe in a bank? Depends on what you consider safe. Also keep in mind, banks in Europe HAVE been talking about negative interest rate accounts, meaning banks would love to start eating away your savings if they get in financial trouble. And do I have to mention Cypress?
> 
> But, my account is protected by the FDIC! Surprise! There is 370 times more money in deposits at US banks than the size of the Federal Deposit Insurance Fund. In fact the FDIC almost went bankrupt during the 2008/9 crisis.
> 
> So where should we put our hard earned dollars?
> 
> Land? Real Estate? Sounds good. Maybe you could even get lucky and find some reasonably priced property that may be able to hold it's value. Except that at any time, property taxes can skyrocket and psycho lawmakers can steal your properties right out from underneath you.
> 
> Gold? Silver? PMs are awesome! Unless of course they continued to be tyrannically manipulated by fake paper trades. And the government could always just declare bullion illegal. It's been done before.
> 
> Bitcoin? Too stupid to even write a sentence about in my opinion. I liked the idea of transactions without banks. But seriously, you think a crypto currency that logs every single transaction ever made is not going to be 100% controlled by some NWO group? I suspect we'll discover Satoshi-Bitcoin-San was always just some NSA guys playing with code.
> 
> Pay off debt? Always wise. Unless you believe, like the FED, that debt is wealth. War is peace. Slavery is freedom.
> 
> Food/Guns/Ammo/Supplies? Ask yourself, "Will I be able to buy this for less in the future? Can I actually use it now? Will I need it in the future?" Then maybe it's something to look into.
> 
> Stocks/Bonds? Buy the highs and sell the lows! No thanks. Remember,when playing poker look around the table and identify the "mark". If you can't find one. It's you.
> 
> 401ks/IRAs? I used to be very worried about these. I am positive they will be "managed" by government soon, just like healthcare. But when Obama set up the MyRA accounts recently I calmed down a tiny bit. Anyone can open up an IRA and buy US treasury bonds, although why they would want to is a total mystery. MyRA is absolutely the first step in government stealing retirement accounts, but it looks like it will take them a few more years to get the structure set up to do it. You might even be able to make like $2 a year with that sweet sweet MyRa account! And he's pushing that crap on the most vulnerable savers, the young and the working poor. It's ****ing sick.
> 
> Did I leave anything out? Basically, I've just bored the hell out of you... just to say, "There is no where to go. No where to hide. No safe haven."
> 
> You want to see how ridiculously close to edge we are? US Threatens Russia Over Petrodollar-Busting Deal:
> US Threatens Russia Over Petrodollar-Busting Deal | Zero Hedge
> Are we shitting our pants because of Russia's actions in the Ukraine? No. Are we going full retard because of Russia's role in Syria? Nope.
> We are literally freaking out because one sovereign country wants to make an oil deal with another sovereign country WITHOUT using the almighty petro dollar.
> 
> Who else tried to sell oil for gold? Saddam. Muammar. Hosni. Assad. And that my friends is why we arab-springed them to death (or are currently still trying to). And that is also why Obama loves the Saudis so much. They take American Expres... I mean they can't get enough of those sweet sweet FED dollars.
> 
> You guys feel free to attack my theories! It won't hurt my feelings. I WANT to be wrong. Seriously, I do.
> 
> View attachment 4946
> 
> Here. This always makes me feel better.


Just found another reason to like you...


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## Deebo

I have TRIED to read and understand the 5 pages, and I can still honestly say, I think the stock market is a joke, Bernie madeoff farts, and stocks go up. Comcast says "it may have lower growth than expected", and stocks go down, all the while, some assholes behind the curtain are making MILLIONS if not billions. Honestly, I am just an average non-college working stiff, but I literally just look at the stockmarket as a scam. And, yes, I have a small fortune, in limbo, until the company I work for completes a "joint venture" and tells us what they are going to do.


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## MrsInor

I don't worry about stocks or investments - that is Inor's department. As long as he gives me enough to pay bills and get canning/sewing/gardening/etc. stuff, I am happy.


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## PalmettoTree

Well as long as you folks keep using those worthless dollars to buy things from all those evil companies, that sell shares of their profits on the rigged stock market. We'll be able to continue enjoying our retirement; living off the dividends. While the value of those companies appreciate; I long after we are dead and my children add their investments to what we leave them.


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## Deebo

Well, as you stand above us, on your high ground, I am stil not any more knowledgeable than I was before you schooled me.....Thanks...I have decided to start calling things like I see them, and stop being so worried about others feelings, and OBVIOUSLY, some people here have the been that way all along. You say "you folks" like we are dumb. You are saying that the stock market isnt rigged? Explain to me why insider trading is ok, until someone makes more than someeone else and gets sacrificed?
All stock market buys and sells are to make money, I understand that, but when the market is munipulated, prostituted, and "for sale", with my money involved? Nevermind, youll probably just be a smart alick


----------



## PalmettoTree

Deebo said:


> Well, as you stand above us, on your high ground, I am stil not any more knowledgeable than I was before you schooled me.....Thanks...I have decided to start calling things like I see them, and stop being so worried about others feelings, and OBVIOUSLY, some people here have the been that way all along. You say "you folks" like we are dumb. You are saying that the stock market isnt rigged? Explain to me why insider trading is ok, until someone makes more than someeone else and gets sacrificed?
> All stock market buys and sells are to make money, I understand that, but when the market is munipulated, prostituted, and "for sale", with my money involved? Nevermind, youll probably just be a smart alick


The stock market is neither no more fair nor corrupt than life. I have taken my biggest setbacks outside the market but my share in the market. I use "you folks" to show I am not picking on any one individual but indicating I am not of the same opinion of a larger group than you. To call them like you see them is a good character trait. It is an honest one. But so is being open minded to understanding a complex system.

I have never said insider trading is OK but there will always be people closer to the action than us small investors. One must not only understand this environment but guard against and allow for it.

I have no idea how you got screwed by the market.

Like I ten told young umpires. The only way to never make a bad call I'd don't umpire baseball. Likewise with the stock market. The trick is to invest in such a way as to minimize your losses.

There are many over valued stocks. There are many under valued stocks. There are ways to spot these. Many people make a ton of money on over valued stocks. I am not one of them. Odds are you will not lose much buying undervalued stocks but you might die before the market recognizes their under value thus giving you a profit.

I am not a stock market trader. I am an investor.


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## Charles Martel

I keep just enough in my personal checking accounts to cover my monthly bills. I have no personal savings accounts, and I don't contribute to any type of 401K or IRA, either. I always have a certain amount of cash in my safe (usually no more than $10,000), but that is all the fiat currency I have to my name. It makes no sense to have a constantly inflating currency sitting around losing value. I convert all my fluid capital into hard assets (land, rental properties, gold, silver, food, guns, ammo, etc.), or reinvest it in my businesses. I keep as much of my personal wealth out of the control of the bankers and the federal government as I possibly can.

Unfortunately, I have no choice but to keep a fairly large number of federal reserve notes in my business accounts (to buy inventory, cover payroll, travel expenses, etc.). I haven't found a practical way around this, yet.


----------



## Casie

I think its cool that you still have faith in the market, PalmettoTree. I sincerely wish you mucho success! Your ability to tolerate corruption/theft/manipulation is just much higher than mine.

I can tell you feel strongly about your position. Feel free to preach it brother! But maybe stop responding with, "_I have no idea how you got screwed by the market_." and "_It sounds to me like you got hurt badly in the market. Based on your comments the reason you lost money is you do not understand money. I'm sorry for your loss._"

If someone does not agree with you on this, you decree they must be some kind of battered, and bitter market loser that should be dismissed with pity. That's even lamer than telling everyone the girl that won't date you must be a lesbian.

Successful people are leaving the market. Most girls aren't lesbians. Deebo and I did not get stock-market raped. (Hope you don't mind me speaking for ya' D!)

Yes, you *can* make money by following the herd and going long while the FED prints money. BUT, the money you make WILL be worth less and less because of the FED's printing. And the risk is huge. Zimbabwe-style.

I spent 6 whole minutes finding you some fun quotes. It was easy because there is a LOT of noise about this in the news right now. So here ya go! Quotes from successful people: (The Faber quote is hilarious!)

*HFT*

The U.S. stock market is rigged, with elite traders buying access to a high-speed network that allows them to figure out what you've just ordered, order it first, then raise the price before your order is complete. -Michael Lewis

The system is now loaded with algorithms that effectively prey on other algorithms. Some algorithms, for example, can detect the electronic signature of a big VWAP, a process called 'algo-sniffing'. If the VWAP is programmed to buy a particular corporation's shares, the algo-sniffing program will buy those shares faster than the VWAP, then sell them to it at a profit.

More dubious in that respect is a set of strategies that seek deliberately to fool other algorithms. An example is 'layering' or 'spoofing'. A spoofer might, for instance, buy a block of shares and then issue a large number of buy orders for the same shares at prices just fractions below the current market price. Other algorithms and human traders would then see far more orders to buy the shares in question than orders to sell them, and be likely to conclude that their price was going to rise. They might then buy the shares themselves, causing the price to rise. When it did so, the spoofer would cancel its buy orders and sell the shares it held at a profit. -Donald MacKenzie

*Fed Printing*

The Federal Reserve is controlling the various market rates of interests by literally creating money out of thin air. The process is obscured through intermediate steps (such as "open market purchases" of securities), but ultimately the Federal Reserve creates new deposits for major banks out of an accounting vacuum, and then allows its privileged clients to use these new deposits as the collateral with which the client banks issue new credit to borrowers. -Robert Murphy

The U.S. equity market is a dangerous Ponzi scheme: a fraudulent investment operation that only delivers margin expansion, not growth. -Ron Heller

Fed gamesmanship puts international finance at risk. Economies haven't been healed. They've been wrecked. QE is a zero sum game. It's financial terrorism. It sacrifices growth for Wall Street. It hangs ordinary people out to dry. It promises protracted hard times. It leaves growing millions on their own sink or swim. Let-eat-cake economics doesn't work. It never did. It doesn't now. It sparks decline and revolutions, not growth and prosperity. -Stephen Lendman

The stock market is today nothing more than a mammoth Ponzi pyramid, and like all such pyramids, greater and greater amounts of money have to be found to feed into it in order to prevent its collapse. -S.R. Shearer

*Fake Recoveries** For skimmers: Just read this one. So funny!*

The federal government is sending each of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. If we buy a computer, it will go to India. If we purchase fruits and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala. If we purchase a good car, it will go to Germany and Japan. If we purchase useless crap, it will go to Taiwan. In short, none of it will help the American economy. The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prostitutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in the US. I've been doing my part... - Marc Faber

Recovery is illusory. It's fake. Phony government numbers conceal weakness. Growth hasn't occurred since 2006/2007. - John Williams.


----------



## Charles Martel

Casie said:


> View attachment 5009
> 
> 
> I think its cool that you still have faith in the market, PalmettoTree. I sincerely wish you mucho success! Your ability to tolerate corruption/theft/manipulation is just much higher than mine.
> 
> I can tell you feel strongly about your position. Feel free to preach it brother! But maybe stop responding with, "_I have no idea how you got screwed by the market_." and "_It sounds to me like you got hurt badly in the market. Based on your comments the reason you lost money is you do not understand money. I'm sorry for your loss._"
> 
> If someone does not agree with you on this, you decree they must be some kind of battered, and bitter market loser that should be dismissed with pity. That's even lamer than telling everyone the girl that won't date you must be a lesbian.
> 
> Successful people are leaving the market. Most girls aren't lesbians. Deebo and I did not get stock-market raped. (Hope you don't mind me speaking for ya' D!)
> 
> Yes, you *can* make money by following the herd and going long while the FED prints money. BUT, the money you make WILL be worth less and less because of the FED's printing. And the risk is huge. Zimbabwe-style.
> 
> I spent 6 whole minutes finding you some fun quotes. It was easy because there is a LOT of noise about this in the news right now. So here ya go! Quotes from successful people: (The Faber quote is hilarious!)
> 
> *HFT*
> 
> The U.S. stock market is rigged, with elite traders buying access to a high-speed network that allows them to figure out what you've just ordered, order it first, then raise the price before your order is complete. -Michael Lewis
> 
> The system is now loaded with algorithms that effectively prey on other algorithms. Some algorithms, for example, can detect the electronic signature of a big VWAP, a process called 'algo-sniffing'. If the VWAP is programmed to buy a particular corporation's shares, the algo-sniffing program will buy those shares faster than the VWAP, then sell them to it at a profit.
> 
> More dubious in that respect is a set of strategies that seek deliberately to fool other algorithms. An example is 'layering' or 'spoofing'. A spoofer might, for instance, buy a block of shares and then issue a large number of buy orders for the same shares at prices just fractions below the current market price. Other algorithms and human traders would then see far more orders to buy the shares in question than orders to sell them, and be likely to conclude that their price was going to rise. They might then buy the shares themselves, causing the price to rise. When it did so, the spoofer would cancel its buy orders and sell the shares it held at a profit. -Donald MacKenzie
> 
> *Fed Printing*
> 
> The Federal Reserve is controlling the various market rates of interests by literally creating money out of thin air. The process is obscured through intermediate steps (such as "open market purchases" of securities), but ultimately the Federal Reserve creates new deposits for major banks out of an accounting vacuum, and then allows its privileged clients to use these new deposits as the collateral with which the client banks issue new credit to borrowers. -Robert Murphy
> 
> The U.S. equity market is a dangerous Ponzi scheme: a fraudulent investment operation that only delivers margin expansion, not growth. -Ron Heller
> 
> Fed gamesmanship puts international finance at risk. Economies haven't been healed. They've been wrecked. QE is a zero sum game. It's financial terrorism. It sacrifices growth for Wall Street. It hangs ordinary people out to dry. It promises protracted hard times. It leaves growing millions on their own sink or swim. Let-eat-cake economics doesn't work. It never did. It doesn't now. It sparks decline and revolutions, not growth and prosperity. -Stephen Lendman
> 
> The stock market is today nothing more than a mammoth Ponzi pyramid, and like all such pyramids, greater and greater amounts of money have to be found to feed into it in order to prevent its collapse. -S.R. Shearer
> 
> *Fake Recoveries** For skimmers: Just read this one. So funny!*
> 
> The federal government is sending each of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. If we buy a computer, it will go to India. If we purchase fruits and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala. If we purchase a good car, it will go to Germany and Japan. If we purchase useless crap, it will go to Taiwan. In short, none of it will help the American economy. The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prostitutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in the US. I've been doing my part... - Marc Faber
> 
> Recovery is illusory. It's fake. Phony government numbers conceal weakness. Growth hasn't occurred since 2006/2007. - John Williams.


Great quotes. The first few were news to me.

I wouldn't participate in the stock market if for no other reason than it's very clearly a giant Ponzi scheme controlled by a consortium of privately owned banks (the federal reserve system) that have usurped control of this nation's currency. They've been inflating and crashing the market for their own gain since 1913. Why people continue to trust a system that has destroyed the wealth of the middle class is beyond me.


----------



## Slippy

Casie said:


> View attachment 5009
> 
> 
> The federal government is sending each of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. If we buy a computer, it will go to India. If we purchase fruits and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala. If we purchase a good car, it will go to Germany and Japan. If we purchase useless crap, it will go to Taiwan. In short, none of it will help the American economy. *The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prostitutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in the US. I've been doing my part... *- Marc Faber


Damnit Slippy you are right again!  I've always said that my money goes to "Whiskey and Woman!


----------



## Casie

Mr Martel, you may like this! It's an amazing (and funny) presentation about algos!


----------



## PalmettoTree

Casie

My big loss as buying a franchise. My ignorance was that a franchise is set up to make the franchisor money net the franchisee. That does not stop me from admitting some that buy franchises do make money and do very well. I just did not think it through. Lesson learned.

I have not had a date other than my wife for 45 years. My advice to young men is: All women are different all wives are the same. My wife's favorite is: By hearing other women talk I must have the best husband in the world and if they don't come any better than that, I sure as he'll don't want another one. 

No you cannot make money following the stock market herd. My opinion that is the easiest way to lose money. That include following the herd that says the market is rigged and the US dollar is worthless and the stock market is a Ponzi scheme. All are herds of one kind or another. As for your comment, "successful people are leaving the market." Is that not herd following rationalization?

As for your quotes each is from a herd member. They make good sound bites but are short on substance. Most of the things I defend; I would find some fault with on a different forum. Sample, the stock market (SEC) rule on stock shorts.

I am of the opinion that just because the TV says a person is an expert that does not make them correct. So it is with the people you quoted.

As for algorithms, they have been used to trade stocks for 50 years or more. The computers are just faster and more automated. Just as soon as one algorithm is written and put in place to take advantage of a sequence another circumvents it. These things are nothing more than noise in the system. Sometimes a loud noise at that. But your expert said that in twice as many words and with more jargon.

As for the FED printing money, we all know that it does. The question is does that money serve the function of money. The Fed must keep enough money in circulation to meet the demand for it to serve the function of money. That lesson was learned a hundred years ago. Yes the member banks do borrow money from the Fed just as you can borrow money from a bank or pay-day lender.

Some people have a mental block that just will not allow them to consider money valuable if it does not represent a commodity. Commodity backed money has always failed. More importantly commodity backed money is fiat currency just as our current doll is called fiat. (Look up the word fiat.)

As for your Ron Heller quote, that is an out right lie. My wife and I are living proof of that. Any high school kid that has taken a class in bookkeeping knows better. His like most you quoted are without substance to back up their point aka pointless.

I agree with Mr. Williams on government numbers.

Your favorite Faber comment reminds me of a comment I once made. A co-worker and I were waiting in line to get back into the country from Juarez Mexico when I started to laugh. He ask what was so funny. My reply, "Here we are two Americans working for a Japanese company in Mexico visiting an American company." Fabre is only partially correct. We have a global economy. There is no going back from that. But the truth is most foreign company growth has been in the US using A US work force. Most cars made by US auto makers are made in Mexico. Most foreign names from Toyota to BMW are made in the us. The more than 50% of the world air bags in cars: fabric made and coated in the US; assembled in Mexico, S. America or S Africa, and placed in cars in or near the country the car will be sold.


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## Charles Martel

Casie said:


> Mr Martel, you may like this! It's an amazing (and funny) presentation about algos!


Wow...thank you!


----------



## PalmettoTree

Thank you both, I enjoyed the video. Those human created computer run algorithms are today's day-traders. That talk is a perfect example of "TRADING". Books five years ago would have given you a list of charts so you could read the "EMOTION" of the market. Put another way the net emotion of all the traders. There have always been, at least as far back as the 70's, that sat at brokerage offices and charted data, listened to breaking news, etc and shorted or purchased shares within a day. Laptops made this popular for the DOT com bubble.

Now the truth is I do not know how many retirement management companies use these to run your retirement accounts. 

There is an old saying in the lending business, "You don't make any money on a loan until you collect it." Business schools in the ate 60's early 70's taught leveraging and accrual accounting. They failed to point out that leveraging multiples risk and accrual accounting ignores the old bankers saying. But fortunately one of my professors taught the virtues of being able to turn accrual accounting and income statements into cash flow statements. They are common day and all three are available without much digging.

The important thing that I want you to understand about me and the position I take is I do not dispute this.

But! As long as there are companies making goods and services that customers are buying there is a fair price for that company. It does not matter what else is making the noise.

Ask yourself what is a company supposed to do. Make a profit. How by making a product or providing a service customers want and will continue wanting. How are they to do this? By using most of their profits to make sure it can stay competitive. What else? Give some of those profits to the owners aka stock holders. These are the companies I try to identify and determine if the asking price is fair. Good companies always pay a dividend. They are managed so well that they never cut their dividend and always increase it each year if only a penny. (Exception LLC Trust like DOM)

Now back to the algorithm noise. The companies that will be their focus is and will be the biggest aka DOW and most of the S&P 500. Today's global stock market is huge but computers also permit me to search for the fair priced companies. The brokers like Ameritrade even gives me the search methods to ferret out the fair priced companies. For $9.99 I can buy one or thousands of shares.

It is true all company stock prices behave to a degree like boats follow the tide. They go up when the market in General goes up and down when the market goes down. Companies with fair prices per share have a life preserver_their yield. Yield is the current (last qtr.) dividend annualized divided by the current price (usually yesterday's close). Good companies pay a dividend and increase it a little bit every year. So if the current price falls too far the current yield goes up. So if company XYZ pays a 2.5% dividend and the falling market takes the price down and the yield becomes 4% in comes the big money even some algorithm money and the stock price will be pushed back up.

You see the market is open to anyone that will put their money in it even speculators. They make it easier for people like me to get in and out quickly. Companies with very low trading volume like DOM carry more risk even with a good yield because it might cost you 5% just to get out. If it had a volume of 200,000 shares a day traded it would cost less than 1%. (Not talking commission but the buy sell spread).

If you have read all this thank you.


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## Deebo

palmetto- maybe in haste, I took it that you were "looking down your nose at me", and If I was wrong, I am sorry.


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## PalmettoTree

No offense intended. I like being forced to defend my position. If I cannot then it has a hole I need to think through. I do not mean that as pious as it sounds. I try to learn from everyone and copy no one. You expressed your position better than those you quoted. We all see enough of the experts. I'm interested in the rest of us.


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## Deebo

Thanks, and our due to our discussion, i just went and "stabled" all my 401k, hell this whole year, I am at less than 1% ROI. 
Long story short, PM me if you wanna answer a bunch of questions about investing, I am still on the fence of saving for retirement, or just taking it out and buying guns and land. Honestly. I have been thinking this over for a while, and with this "joint venture", nobody can even tell me if we are going to "roll over" or cash out, so its just a waiting game.


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## bad

I figured that money is like matter in one sense. You can't really destroy it. 

So I invest in a project and lose money. Did the money vaporize? No it changed hands. I purchase stock, I give my money to someone. I sell stock, someone gives money back to me. 

If the market goes down. Someone has that money. It didn't disappear. 

A big crash happens. Ten million people lose money in the stock market. Then maybe a 100 people make money. Probably the same 100 that make money all the time.

If the government quits printing money then the market crashes.

I have simplified this theory so that I can keep it straight. 

If shithtf I figure that prices will skyrocket for necessities and things like the real estate and stock markets will tumble.


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## PalmettoTree

Deebo said:


> Thanks, and our due to our discussion, i just went and "stabled" all my 401k, hell this whole year, I am at less than 1% ROI.
> Long story short, PM me if you wanna answer a bunch of questions about investing, I am still on the fence of saving for retirement, or just taking it out and buying guns and land. Honestly. I have been thinking this over for a while, and with this "joint venture", nobody can even tell me if we are going to "roll over" or cash out, so its just a waiting game.


Just remember. It is poor prepping to go all in expecting a particular event. Prep for nothing to happen as well as a SHTF. I have my silver too.


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## Casie

PalmettoTree

We are not having much of a conversation here. lol!

We are just not going to agree on this one and that's totally fine. You have an amazing ability to dismiss quotes from insiders and millionaires, completely miss the point of the "she won't date me so she must be a lesbian" allegory, and happily ignore fraud/theft/manipulation because it's "no more fair nor corrupt than life".

I think the very basic foundations of our economy, the dollar, and the stock market are fake. And there are just too many tiny little things that will bring it all down like a pack of cards.

I think right now, one can't do much better than Mr. Martel's mix of assets and low exposure to risks. I am positioned in a similar fashion. We are able to maintain wealth (short term _or_ long term), while also keeping some dry powder on hand to react if the situation changes suddenly.

But, you and I DO both agree everyone has to decide what is best for themselves. I would never presume to know what is best for you. I read your post where you talked about having to work two jobs to support your family through tough times. Our lives are very different, so it is not surprising that our opinions on finance are as well.

Maybe as we get further down this timeline, we may find ourselves on the same side of the discussion.


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## Inor

bad said:


> I figured that money is like matter in one sense. You can't really destroy it.
> 
> So I invest in a project and lose money. Did the money vaporize? No it changed hands. I purchase stock, I give my money to someone. I sell stock, someone gives money back to me.
> 
> If the market goes down. Someone has that money. It didn't disappear.
> 
> A big crash happens. Ten million people lose money in the stock market. Then maybe a 100 people make money. Probably the same 100 that make money all the time.
> 
> If the government quits printing money then the market crashes.
> 
> I have simplified this theory so that I can keep it straight.
> 
> If shithtf I figure that prices will skyrocket for necessities and things like the real estate and stock markets will tumble.


That is only superficially accurate anymore. Since Nixon dismantled Bretton-Woods and took us totally off the gold standard, the Federal Reserve Note is only backed by debt. In other words, Federal Reserve Notes are created when debt is issued and they are destroyed when debt is paid back. Furthermore, the volume of Federal Reserve Notes created (and destroyed) is amplified by the use of fractional reserve banking. In other words, issuing $1 in debt, creates about $10 in Federal Reserve Notes. What most folks do not realize is that if we paid off all of our government debt and all of personal debt, the U.S. Federal Reserve Note would cease to exist.

If you can detach yourself from what it means in the real world, it really is a fascinating Ponzi scheme that the Federal Reserve Bank has set up.


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## FFARL

PalmettoTree said:


> Just remember. It is poor prepping to go all in expecting a particular event. Prep for nothing to happen as well as a SHTF. I have my silver too.


 This exactly. If you've got all your eggs in any one basket, you're not prepared at all. That said, I've been done with banks for a year now. I keep cash, in several places, and put the rest into things that will hold value regardless. I don't see guns losing value no matter what happens.


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## Charles Martel

Inor said:


> That is only superficially accurate anymore. Since Nixon dismantled Bretton-Woods and took us totally off the gold standard, the Federal Reserve Note is only backed by debt. In other words, Federal Reserve Notes are created when debt is issued and they are destroyed when debt is paid back. Furthermore, the volume of Federal Reserve Notes created (and destroyed) is amplified by the use of fractional reserve banking. In other words, issuing $1 in debt, creates about $10 in Federal Reserve Notes. What most folks do not realize is that if we paid off all of our government debt and all of personal debt, the U.S. Federal Reserve Note would cease to exist.
> 
> If you can detach yourself from what it means in the real world, it really is a fascinating Ponzi scheme that the Federal Reserve Bank has set up.


It's refreshing when somebody gets it!

...and hurray! I'm not the only one in the world that knows what Bretton Woods is/was!

Great post, Inor.


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## Casie

Beautifully said, Inor!


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## PalmettoTree

Inor said:


> That is only superficially accurate anymore. Since Nixon dismantled Bretton-Woods and took us totally off the gold standard, the Federal Reserve Note is only backed by debt. In other words, Federal Reserve Notes are created when debt is issued and they are destroyed when debt is paid back. Furthermore, the volume of Federal Reserve Notes created (and destroyed) is amplified by the use of fractional reserve banking. In other words, issuing $1 in debt, creates about $10 in Federal Reserve Notes. What most folks do not realize is that if we paid off all of our government debt and all of personal debt, the U.S. Federal Reserve Note would cease to exist.
> 
> If you can detach yourself from what it means in the real world, it really is a fascinating Ponzi scheme that the Federal Reserve Bank has set up.


Suppose we are on the gold standard. Suppose I own the only gold mine and known reserves in the country. Mr. Inor is the government with all it's functions. We had a population of 1,000 citizens and a money supply of $1,000,000 gold backed dollars. Our economy is working just fine.

Fast forward and the population has grown to 10,000 and the economy has stagnated. There is just not enough dollars in circulation for a growing functioning country. Government Inor has no more gold so he cannot issue more money.

How does Government Inor get the money to buy my gold so he can issue more money.

This is an ongoing hypothetical so I have not ask all the pertinent questions yet.


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## Casie

This is why our conversation is unable to move forward. You ignore/dismiss the actual dialog and insert your own reality. I'm all for a good hypothetical conversation, but...yikes. This one is way off into the wild blue yonder. 

If Inor's money is backed by silver and gold, he does not need anything. Even Inor's pennies would have buying power. Heck he could even print a half-penny like the old British ha'penny, which represented 1/480 pound sterling (And at one time could buy you a beer or a meal.) You seem to have forgotten there was a time before the FED.

PT, I have totally enjoyed other replies you have made in this forum, and I'm sure we will agree on other things... it's just not going to be this one. And that's totally cool.


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## Charles Martel

PalmettoTree said:


> Suppose we are on the gold standard. Suppose I own the only gold mine and known reserves in the country. Mr. Inor is the government with all it's functions. We had a population of 1,000 citizens and a money supply of $1,000,000 gold backed dollars. Our economy is working just fine.
> 
> Fast forward and the population has grown to 10,000 and the economy has stagnated. There is just not enough dollars in circulation for a growing functioning country. Government Inor has no more gold so he cannot issue more money.
> 
> How does Government Inor get the money to buy my gold so he can issue more money.
> 
> This is an ongoing hypothetical so I have not ask all the pertinent questions yet.


We don't necessarily need to go back to a gold/silver standard. Paper money _can_ work (the original greenback is a perfect example of this) provided those printing the currency possess restraint, and as long as central banks aren't allowed to loan more money than they have in reserve (fractional reserve lending). When we have given the issuance of our currency (and control of interest rates) over to private foreign banking interests, the result will always be massive debt and economic slavery.

I won't sink a single penny into the market until the Federal Reserve is eliminated. Its power to create volatility in all markets through manipulation of capital/interest rates is just too great. In fact, I won't play in dollars at all until that happens.


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## Survalich77

I kept most of my money in bank account. I had a separate account that I never used, but it had a small amount in it. I noticed I was being hit with an inactivity penalty every month. Pissed me off, but it was my own fault. These banks will hit us with fees if your not looking, and there isn’t really any reason to keep your money in them because the interest rate is laughable. I now buy cryptocurrencies like Litecoin Ethereum bitcoin. If I have $26.73 left at the end of the week, I trade that amount for cryptos. Next week maybe it will be $14.09. I can trade my dollars for the equivalent of cryptos. Been doing this for a year or so. I didn’t have a lot to invest, but I’ve made 30x my investment. Way better than what the bank would have given me.


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