# maybe this is better



## johnnyprepper (Nov 16, 2012)

i have never shot at a person or been shot at. but i feel my .22lr is my gtg (go to gun) its light weight easy to manuver and i can put all 10 rounds in a 1" square at 50 yds in just under 6 seconds so im extreamly comfortable with it and i know what i can do with it. i practice alot with speed shooting how fast can i accurately empty the clip. i guess i want some input from you guys and ladies


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## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

.22lr has definate maerrits. i have sr22 and the ruger 10/22. i enjoy the plinking and the variables. being a gun nut i have a few choices in each the hand gun and long rifle department. but i sure am fond of my 22s.

:smile:


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Seems people are having trouble coming to grips with the fact that there is no single caliber that covers all the bases. 
You are good with your .22. That is good. I've dropped running and dodging rabbits with mine. I figure that ain't too shabby, huh. I have had that rifle since I was 14. I'm 49, now. I guess I'm not going to get any more acquainted with a rifle than that.

You know what I know about it? It's still a .22LR. 

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not trying to lecture, I am trying to make sure that reality is not lost in one's thoughts.

Why is it that armies do not use the .22LR? Why wouldn't police SWAT marksmen use the .22LR? Why do we use them for small game and high powered rifles for deer? 

Yes, the .22LR is better than a slingshot, but please, understand that no single tool can be used for all needs, and a rifle is a tool.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I've offered this before, and here it is, again.

Maybe this will help you understand the mechanics behind the bullet.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

You are willing to bet the lives of you and your family on a .22?

A .22lr should be for hunting and a last resort gun. Have you shot one under stress? Shooting at a target is one thing, protecting yourself is another. Shooting at a steel target the only way I can tell if I hit it is because of the sound. It doesn't even vibrate. If you want to simulate stress, try shooting in an USPSA or equivalent match. No one is shooting back at you but you are under time and round limitations. This will give you and idea about your reaction and accuracy. 

Knock down power is what I have. If I am forced to defend myself, I need to know that when I shoot someone, they will stay down. When they come it will be a group and you need to be sure that someone you think is down won't get up and blindside you.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

inceptor said:


> ...A .22lr should be for hunting and a last resort gun...


Yeah, for self-defence I wouldn't consider anything less than .38.
Remember when Serpico got shot in the mug pointblank? I hear it was a .25 calibre handgun and all it did was make a little hole in his cheek (below)-










PS- And in my humble opinion the British and American armies must have been nuts to switch to 5.56mm rifles because 5.56mm is only about .22", crazy!
left to right- 5.56mm/ .30"/ 7.62mm


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The diameter is not what sets it apart from the .22LR.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Denton said:


> The diameter is not what sets it apart from the .22LR.


The 5.56mm flies a lot faster than a standard .22, but is still subject to the laws of physics, namely that it loses it's kinetic energy a lot faster than say a 7.62mm due to air resistance, making it not so good at longer ranges.
Also, if the enemy is in light cover such as behind a wooden fence or saplings or soft-skin vehicle, the wood/tin will absorb a chunk of the 5.56's kin energy, meaning that even if it penetrates it and hits the man it won't hurt him as much as a heavier round would.
By contrast, a 7.62 would go through light cover as if it wasn't there, so I'd choose to have something like a 7.62 AK-47 every time..


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

"Anyone who has ever survived a gunfight has ever wished for a smaller gun or less ammo." Clint Smith
I only carry a hand gun because walking around with a rifle is a tad too obvious. If I knew I was going to be in a gunfight I would rather have a rifle, and some friends with me who had rifles too.
I have used the 5.56 NATO round, and while it can be effective, my defensive rifles today are .30 caliber or larger. There is no way I would voluntarily use a 22 rimfire rifle for self defense against anything bigger than a fox or bobcat.
I may be a dumb old truck driver who barely graduated high school, but I ain't stupid.


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## Verteidiger (Nov 16, 2012)

7.62 x 51 for me, thanks.


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## Lattice (Nov 19, 2012)

Anyone here listen to Gun Talk? 

There was a guest speaker there at one point that had researched thousands upon thousands of shootings. Everything from .22 up to .44 mag. Ya know what he found? On average, regardless of caliber, it took four critical hits before the attacker ceased his assault. Does that mean that there were no one or two shot stops? No. Just that by and large, once again regardless of caliber, that the vast majority of them took that number. One would think that the larger calibers saw more one or two shot stops. But across the board all calibers were equal. 

Yeah, being a .45 girl myself I was very surprised.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Lattice said:


> Anyone here listen to Gun Talk?
> 
> There was a guest speaker there at one point that had researched thousands upon thousands of shootings. Everything from .22 up to .44 mag. Ya know what he found? On average, regardless of caliber, it took four critical hits before the attacker ceased his assault. Does that mean that there were no one or two shot stops? No. Just that by and large, once again regardless of caliber, that the vast majority of them took that number. One would think that the larger calibers saw more one or two shot stops. But across the board all calibers were equal.
> 
> Yeah, being a .45 girl myself I was very surprised.


Handguns are relatively low powered. Shoot someone center mass with a 30-06 soft point once and it's over. Or a 30-30.


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## Lattice (Nov 19, 2012)

Was I talking about rifle rounds?

Edit: Yeah, that sounded a lil bitchy. It wasn't supposed to. Im sorry.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Lattice said:


> Was I talking about rifle rounds?
> 
> Edit: Yeah, that sounded a lil bitchy. It wasn't supposed to. Im sorry.


No problem, ma'am.
The thread had pretty much assumed the OP was talking about a 22 LR rifle (at least I did).


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

@ Lucky Jim
Quote: PS- And in my humble opinion the British and American armies must have been nuts to switch to 5.56mm rifles because 5.56mm is only about .22", crazy!
left to right- 5.56mm/ .30"/ 7.62mm 

Make that just about every major army in the world, Russia uses a 5.45 x 39 which isn't as powerful as the 5.56 x 45 NATO 
The 5.56x45 (1250 ft/lbs) which I hear so many saying is under powered is more powerful than the Civil war rifles shooting a 58 cal minie ball (1000 ft/lbs) that everyone thought was so devastating.
The commercial 5.56x45 can be more lethal than military ammo because of restriction on military ammo by the Geneva convention.
One of the reasons that early 1900 rifles used such powerful rounds like the 30-06 is that they envisioned wars would be fought at very long ranges, and the troops would all fire volleys at the enemy almost a mile away, that is why some of the old rifles had rear sights that could raise very high. The British 303 Lee-Enfield had sights that go up to 1700 yards . The 5.56x45 weighs the same as a 115gr 9mm with 3 times the energy, the 7.62 x 51 weighs twice as much as the 5.56x45 but does have twice the energy so a good trade off, The other advantage is that the 5.56x45 can use lighter guns and easier to train someone because of the reduced recoil.


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## Lattice (Nov 19, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> No problem, ma'am.
> The thread had pretty much assumed the OP was talking about a 22 LR rifle (at least I did).


I suppose that we could assume it either way. When someone talks about .22, even from a rifle, I only compare it to pistol or pistol caliber rifles because the energies seen in .22 are so much lower than those of other rifle calibers.

Incidentally, that same researcher also researched many different shootings which involved rifles. And came to much the same conclusion. Average number of effective shots to stop was 2 across the board.


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## nadja (May 1, 2012)

One thing I know and most hear don't seem to know. IF you are shot with even the lowly .22, it kinda sorta takes the fight out of you real quick like. I know this, because I have been nailed with one. Not a very pleasant experience for sure.


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## TxBorderCop (Nov 19, 2012)

To the OP

1. Becoming proficient with a firearm = Good
2. Depending on a small caliber for self defense = rethink that.

No offense to Lattice, but as a Cop, I can tell you that the reason all agencies that had 9mm went up in caliber to .40S&W (or .357Sig or .45GAP) is to ensure that when there is a gun fight, the amount of damage created by the round in question would cause the perp some considerable damage. Remember, we are trained to Shoot to STOP, not kill. Problem is the bad guys (and you will also go through this in a SHTF scenario) don't STOP, they keep going until they are completely incapacitated and that usually means death. If you look at the findings from the research done after the Battle of Mogadishu, and the problems suffered in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military is still having issues with the lack of lethality of the 5.56 round. Don't get me wrong, I love my AR's (own 3 of them) but when I chose to build a new rifle in that platform, I went with the 6.8 SPC II since it shoots a heavier bullet (115 grains versus 55 or 62 grain) at the same or faster velocity. I want whatever I shoot at to go down, if it is a deer, a zombie or someone threatening my life or that of my family.

Continue practicing (and as a previous poster mentioned, go shoot USPSA or IDPA) and then become proficient in several different types (and calibers) of firearms. My Agency uses the .40S&W but off duty I carry a 1911 in .45ACP (.38 Super is a cool round but hard to find and expensive)


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Shot placement is more important than caliber. Being armed is better than not being armed. Use what you have until you can get something better.


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

Shot placement is indeed important, but you can't guarantee that you'll always be able to place a shot in a critical area. If the bad guy only presents a shoulder, or a foot, you want to be able to do maximum damage, and really make him regret giving you that target. Another thing to consider is penetration through light cover. Whatever rifle you have, you could very well end up in combat with, you need to be able to hit the bad guy if he dives behind some light cover, such as cinder blocks. A .22 doesn't have the power to punch through a cinder block, it barely makes a dent. A metric crap ton of rounds are required to even crack a cinder block, thus negating any quantity advantage you may have had. 5.56 or 7.62 NATO, however, can both penetrate after a round or two, thus eliminating the bad guy quicker, making your life easier. And because this is the internet, and thus, "pics or it didn't happen":

Cinder block vs .22LR (1 round):









Cinder block vs Crap-ton of .22LR:









Cinder block vs 5.56 (1 round):









Cinder block vs 7.62NATO (1 round):









Now, which one would you want to trust your life to?


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## J.T. (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm not going to say that the .22 caliber is ideal for most situations, but, I _will_ say that if you do _not_ have a rifle chambered in .22lr then you are very foolish. Folks, in a real big SHTF situation you are not going to be out in the woods all alone stalking a 100+ pound whitetail deer. Anyone who has ever hunted knows how hard it is to bring in big game-- and that's _without_ the THOUSANDS of other people in your area that are going to be in those same woods with you at the same time with the same idea. The reality is that most food will be SMALL game. And have you ever tried to eat a bird or a squirrel shot with a 30-06 or even a .223??

Also, I get the sense that many people think a SHTF scenario will be some kind of 'round the clock MadMax shootout. Again, the reality is that you will be far more likely to die from disease than from bullets.

Once you start thinking in real terms instead of Hollywood fantasy then the .22LR starts making a lot more sense. Of course, it still hasn't stopped me from collecting an unhealthy amount of .223 assault rifles and .308 bolt-actions


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## Sinkhole (Nov 17, 2012)

If i was looking at something with a bit more punch than a 5.56x45 and not as heavy to lug around as 7.62x51, I can only come up with one logical choice 6.8SPC in an AR platform. 6.8SPC will out perform both 5.56x45 and 7.62x39, and though not the ballistic equivalent to 7.62x51 it will allow you to carry considerably more ammo for the same given weight.


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## Lattice (Nov 19, 2012)

I agree with ya Alpha. Mostly. Every firearm has an application (or two) that it is good at. Each has it's place. If a person is tight on money, a .22 might be the way to go. Cheap, reliable, and easy to stock a boat load of ammo. You can use it to hunt, defense, and to a small part, offense. 

Im not sure if I posted this hear, or on another forum Im on. But during one of my late husband's deployments to Iraq there was a Syrian woman who used a .22 to kill a lot of Marines and Sailors. IIRC it was something like fifteen in a one week period before they finally killed her.


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## Rogue_Scout (Nov 26, 2012)

As much as it pains me to say it I am still sticking with my AK. Hunting is not my top priority (However do not think I will not take a shot at a deer or a cow if opportunity presents itself) because I have learned how to live of the land. I feel defense will be key to staying alive for at least a while until things calm down. Desperation brings out the worst in even the most docile of individuals. Its best to be prepared, because they aren't.


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

Lattice said:


> I agree with ya Alpha. Mostly. Every firearm has an application (or two) that it is good at. Each has it's place. If a person is tight on money, a .22 might be the way to go. Cheap, reliable, and easy to stock a boat load of ammo. You can use it to hunt, defense, and to a small part, offense.
> 
> Im not sure if I posted this hear, or on another forum Im on. But during one of my late husband's deployments to Iraq there was a Syrian woman who used a .22 to kill a lot of Marines and Sailors. IIRC it was something like fifteen in a one week period before they finally killed her.


Oh, I agree that .22LR has a place. It's a wonderful round for small game hunting, and in an emergency, can be used for defense. My main point is that in any form of survival situation, you'll need something bigger too, so a whole sale reliance on .22LR is foolhardy. While I don't feel that Post-apocalypse life will be a "Mad Max Shootout", confrontations with armed bad guys is something that will be common, especially when people start running out of food, and start looking to take yours.

As for the Syrian Woman, I'd love to hear the details on that one. Must have taken some interesting marksmanship to take down several people, all while wearing body armor, and on alert. Do-able, but interesting.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

J.T. said:


> I'm not going to say that the .22 caliber is ideal for most situations, but, I _will_ say that if you do _not_ have a rifle chambered in .22lr then you are very foolish. Folks, in a real big SHTF situation you are not going to be out in the woods all alone stalking a 100+ pound whitetail deer. Anyone who has ever hunted knows how hard it is to bring in big game-- and that's _without_ the THOUSANDS of other people in your area that are going to be in those same woods with you at the same time with the same idea. The reality is that most food will be SMALL game. And have you ever tried to eat a bird or a squirrel shot with a 30-06 or even a .223??
> 
> Also, I get the sense that many people think a SHTF scenario will be some kind of 'round the clock MadMax shootout. Again, the reality is that you will be far more likely to die from disease than from bullets.
> 
> Once you start thinking in real terms instead of Hollywood fantasy then the .22LR starts making a lot more sense. Of course, it still hasn't stopped me from collecting an unhealthy amount of .223 assault rifles and .308 bolt-actions


I've been out in the woods for the hunting seasons. No deer spotted, 2 grouse flushed.I don't hunt the critters that run around on paws or pads.

I have seen lots of hunters though.


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

The old 22lr VS 5.56 VS .308 discussion! They all have their place; buy one of each in that order if you can. I'm not saying its right, but I've dropped a many of big game with a 22lr. With that being said I've shot "Bag Guys or Diaper Heads" whatever you want to call them at less than 5 meters with a 5.56. The dear with the 22lr dropped faster than the bad guy did? Why??? Speed vs diameter vs weight! The faster the bullet (At close range) the less time it has to delivery kinetic energy. Of course all this is subject to change the bigger diameter you go. e.g. If I shoot you at 10 yards with a 55 grain 5.56 travelling at 2800FPS it will transfer (For example only) 2000lbs of kinetic energy. Now if I shoot you at 10 yards with say a 200 grain, .308 size bullet traveling at 2800FPS it will transfer 3500+lbe of energy. Now if you need a weapon for survival and self defense I would go with the old AR-platform in 5.56. Why: Think about ammo excess. Damn near everyone owns one. Parts are very interchangeable and 5.56 will drop any large game with proper shot placement. I own all three of these calibers. They will all drop a man at less than 50 yards. There are so many variables to look at. Pick one and start stock piling ammo. When you have enough ammo (Like that can happen) save money and buy another caliber and start stocking up on that one, then just keeeeeeeppp on gooooooooooinggggggg!


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## Lattice (Nov 19, 2012)

Alpha-17 said:


> Oh, I agree that .22LR has a place. It's a wonderful round for small game hunting, and in an emergency, can be used for defense. My main point is that in any form of survival situation, you'll need something bigger too, so a whole sale reliance on .22LR is foolhardy. While I don't feel that Post-apocalypse life will be a "Mad Max Shootout", confrontations with armed bad guys is something that will be common, especially when people start running out of food, and start looking to take yours.
> 
> As for the Syrian Woman, I'd love to hear the details on that one. Must have taken some interesting marksmanship to take down several people, all while wearing body armor, and on alert. Do-able, but interesting.


I pretty much agree with ya. Even in a total break down that lasts decades I do not believe it will be the way of the movies. Yeah there will be badguys but I don't see people defending themselves from mass hords of roving gangs. Those folks will die off pretty quickly.

The way it was explained to me. She set up not more than a hundred and never less than fifty meters. She must have been good because she was hitting them directly below the helmet. Two quick shots on two people and she would vanish. A battalion STA guy finally took her out. Apparently they figured out what was going on and put a couple STA guys in the turrets. He was scanning buildings and saw her.

Now, anyone that wants to talk about KE dump really needs to read up on modern terminal ballistics. In fact, the closer the range, the more lethal 5.56 is going to be. As many of us know, one of the 5.56's greatest weaknesses (intermediate barrier penetration) is also one of it's greatest strengths. As we all should know, any spitzer type projectile will yaw after it enters a more dense medium (flesh or brick). How quickly it yaws depends on it's velocity and dimensions. The reason 5.56 doesn't penetrate barriers very well is because when it yaws, because of it's light construction and high velocity, it tends to fragment and creates a much larger wound channel than if it would just punch right through. The higher the velocity, the more it will fragment. IIRC M855 will reliably fragment down to about 2700 ft.sec. This is why many found the M-4s lacking. Because muzzle velocity from that rifle is only like 2900 ft.sec. So, round about the time it gets to a hundred and fifty meters it has dropped below the velocity it will reliably fragment.

Incidentally, there was a lot of negative experience with 5.56 during the start of Afghan and Iraq. But this wasnt because what I said above was wrong. But rather because demand for ammo was so high that they had to issue out M855 lead free. As it has a copper jacket, steel core and tungsten penetrator it will not fragment like normal M855 ball will, which has a copper jacket, lead core and steel penetrator. The lead free was designed only for training in countries that have strict lead contamination laws.










Ive constantly heard people rebuke these facts by saying that the guys they shot would go on for several rounds before they dropped. Sure that is entirely possible. Remember a determined attacker can function for eight to eleven seconds after their heart is completely destroyed. Several minutes if you've only destroyed the lungs.

When you're hopped up in the fight how many rounds can you fire in eleven seconds? That eleven seconds that seems like an eternity.



> I've been out in the woods for the hunting seasons. No deer spotted, 2 grouse flushed.I don't hunt the critters that run around on paws or pads.
> 
> I have seen lots of hunters though.


It must suck to be where you are. I harvested two does earlier in the bow season. Have two more tags for bow. Went out Sun and today to see how the end of the Rut is going. Sun there was a lil fork horn chasing after a really nice older doe not thirty yards from where I was standing. And then today as I was heading back in a great looking buck came running out of the grasses trailed by six or eight doe. Im might regret not taking that doe, and that buck was pretty old and needs shot. But will save them for the second bow split or maybe second shotgun.


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## preppermama (Aug 8, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I may be a dumb old truck driver who barely graduated high school, but I ain't stupid.


Years of school does not equal intelligence. EVER.


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## preppermama (Aug 8, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Shoot someone center mass with a 30-06 soft point once and it's over. Or a 30-30.


These two would have my vote as well.


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## Jazzman (Jun 8, 2012)

JAGER said:


> , .308 size bullet traveling at 2800FPS it will transfer 3500+lbe of energy. !


 No it won't , try more along the lines of 2800 foot lbs or so , you may see 3k ft lbs from a 168 out of a 26 inch tube , you won't get near 3500 ft lbs with .308win/7.62 nato , that's magnum territory , 7mm rem mag and up and in 7mm rem mag it's within the fairly stout loadings , you're way high on .223/5.56 too , try 1400-1500 ft lbs with a 70 grain at 3k fps plus.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

3500 ft/lbs is more between a 30-06 and 300 win mag. 
bullet weight in gr x velocity squared divided by 450400 equals ft/lbs
a 55 gr 5.56 x 45 traveling at 3200 fps equals 55 x 3200 x 3200 / 450400 = 1250.4 ft/lbs


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Denton said:


> I've offered this before, and here it is, again.
> 
> Maybe this will help you understand the mechanics behind the bullet.


Thanks Denton. It took me a while to find this, I had forgotten where I had seen it. I wanted to share this with a friend.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

johnnyprepper said:


> i have never shot at a person or been shot at. But i feel my .22lr is my gtg (go to gun) its light weight easy to manuver and i can put all 10 rounds in a 1" square at 50 yds in just under 6 seconds so im extreamly comfortable with it and i know what i can do with it. I practice alot with speed shooting how fast can i accurately empty the clip. I guess i want some input from you guys and ladies


,

a 22 rimfire is fine for survival usage, mostly for bringing down small game. As a last resort for self defense.
It is better than a slingshot. Granted it can kill, but slowly.

As you said you have never shot at or been shot at by a person trying to kill you.

If you think you can hit someone in the head who is moving an most likely firing at you, think again.
You want a round that will do the most damage when it hits, a 22 will not do the job.
The first firefight i got into it took half a mag at about 50 yards to hit the vc. 
I'm not even sure to this day if i got him or someone else in the squad did.
If the other guys were not there i most likely would have been dead 45 some odd years ago.

The way you are thinking will get you killed. 
You had better think of getting a rifle in 5.56x45, 7.62x39 or 7.62x51.

You had also better start thinking of ammo conservation, not how fast you can empty the mag.
Fun and games on the range are just that, fun and games.
The only value the range has is getting you familiar on how to function the weapon and training you to point at the target.
When the shooting starts it is a whole scary new world with a different rule book.


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## Alaska (Nov 28, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> ,
> 
> a 22 rimfire is fine for survival usage, mostly for bringing down small game. As a last resort for self defense.
> It is better than a slingshot. Granted it can kill, but slowly.
> ...


and thank you for using the correct verbage

its a magazine not a clip

gawd that drives me crazy


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

I have had to shoot and been shot at. While a .22 has put a lot of food on the table and if it was all I had I would do my best with it.
I want something else .


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