# A Preppers Philosophical question



## The Bear (Dec 31, 2011)

What has changed in the world where back in the great depression days, everyone was jobless, penniless, and hungry, but they could go to a strangers door and possibly be sent away with a meal.

Today.  If a stranger came to your door during shtf it would be justified to come to the door with a gun. ::rambo:: 

Why?


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## amym505 (Feb 10, 2012)

That is a very good question. In the days of the Great Depression, people still had a moral core. They had pride in themselves in being honest,trustworthy, and independent. The nation had not become dependent on government handouts. There was no welfare system. Now there are so many people in this country that are so dependent on someone to take care of them. Morality has drastically declined. 
I may not come to the door with a gun, but I would certainly proceed with caution. That makes me sad, because I am a person that will help anyone I can.


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## DiscountMylarBags (Jan 30, 2012)

The Bear said:


> What has changed in the world where back in the great depression days, everyone was jobless, penniless, and hungry, but they could go to a strangers door and possibly be sent away with a meal.
> 
> Today. If a stranger came to your door during shtf it would be justified to come to the door with a gun. ::rambo::
> 
> Why?


I think one of the main reasons is because that is what the 'professional' survivalists tell us we should do. The notion of an ultra-violent SHTF is part and parcel of Rawlsian survivalism and is demonstrated in books like Patriots, One Second After and many others. As I think an event, if one ever occurs, is unlikely to play out where total anarchy reigns, I'm prepared to help where I can. I carry now, so answering the door with a gun occurs whether the world has ended or not. It's just a choice each person makes whether to bunker down or help out. Our group has already made plans to assist our town wherever and however we can, should something occur.


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## Leon (Jan 30, 2012)

better a friend than a foe, but better alive than dead as the samurai used to say. They also had a saying "Never promise more rice than you have to spare"


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## AnvilIron (Mar 1, 2012)

WARNING: This one is going to spin me up… I apologize in advance.

I strongly agree with amym505. I think the thing that has changed the most and therefore most affected the way we view and interact with our fellow man, is the increasing lack of a moral code. When I was a kid in the 50’s, no one locked the doors of their house or their car. The fear of strangers was almost non-existent. Yah, yah… old geezer stories… 

The level of violence, anger, sociopathic behavior and depravity was nothing then in comparison to what it is today. Call it an increase in evil. Call it a breakdown of society… whatever. The world was a safer and saner place sixty years ago. We’re not building a better world.

Young people are used to the way things are. It’s what they know. Many believe a better world lies ahead. In many ways a better world lies behind. The 60’s rightly shook things up, but a poison entered in to a naive society struggling to improve itself. They were led to believe that morality was a cage rather than a fortress and they willingly abandoned the only true defense society had. The lie is still propagated in every school in this country.

OK. I’ll stop here and finish my glass of wine. Forget I said anything. These aren’t the droids you’re looking for. I’m going to check my guns, check my door locks, turn on the yard lights, activate the security system, make sure my cell phone is set on 911 speed dial and go to bed. What the h~ll do I know anyway?.. old fart.


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## fedorthedog (Feb 28, 2012)

During the great depression if you went to a farm house for a meal you called up to the house, you did not just walk up and knock. The Mrs had a shotgun and several dogs. Often you were given a meal for work done not just a hand out. The fog of time removed the harshness from history. Many did starve and were run off at gun point. Towns men met refuges at the city limits and turned them away. Dont be romantic about what never was. Find the few remaining old people and talk to them, they remember.


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## amym505 (Feb 10, 2012)

fedorthedog said:


> During the great depression if you went to a farm house for a meal you called up to the house, you did not just walk up and knock. The Mrs had a shotgun and several dogs. Often you were given a meal for work done not just a hand out. The fog of time removed the harshness from history. Many did starve and were run off at gun point. Towns men met refuges at the city limits and turned them away. Dont be romantic about what never was. Find the few remaining old people and talk to them, they remember.


I beg to differ with you. My parents and grandparents lived through the depression. My grandmother never held a gun in her 83 years on this earth. They may have asked for help and given someone a task to do, but they never denied someone a meal. I am sure it was different in larger cities, but in rural America people helped others and all were grateful. The person providing the meal was grateful for being able to help someone, and for any help they needed. The person receiving the meal was grateful for the meal and for the opportunity to earn it. They were not looking for free handouts. 
Is humanitarianism such a distant memory that it is confused with romanticism?


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## fedorthedog (Feb 28, 2012)

The homeless put a mark on the mail box or a stack of rocks around the front of the house to let the other homeless know that the person there provided meals. My people were rural farmers one side in Utah and one in the Alamaden what is now San Jose. There were always a few good people there always will be, but most of humanity leans toward the not so nice and is worst without rules. I dont do romantic I am in the reality business, what is is.


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## C5GUY (Mar 22, 2012)

Easy answer for me. For the last 5 or more generations in the USA we have trained people to be rewarded for doing nothing. We provide food, shelter and money to people that have never worked for it and now have raised their families to expect others to care for their needs. They actually now think they are owed these benefits and resent those that have more even if they worked their tails off to have what they have. When the SHTF these people will be among the first to demand that others give them what they need or they will feel free to try and take what they want. These people will be expendable to those that are prepared.
C5GUY


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## survival (Sep 26, 2011)

I think that it differs depending on where you lived and who you interacted with. My grandfather that lived in NY said what fedorthedog is saying, whist my grandmother on the other side lived in Kentucky and said what amym505 is saying.

The same is true today, has anything really changed? Go back 15 to 20 years ago. You heard all the violence in NY while Kentucky had smaller numbers. 20 years ago, I would had been so gullible to open the door to anyone. I left my doors unlocked, stopped to help a stranger (I still stop), and I would have gave the shirt off my back. Although 20 years ago, I did a research paper at that time in college for crime in rural vs urban environments and the crime rate was higher in rural from difference sources (Mainly due to wide open spaces, less police force, unlocked doors, items left outside, etc)

Is mass media and population overgrowth made one more "aware" of surroundings? Is everyones' own self knowledge making them more aware of situations along with curiousity, responsibilities, moral codes, standards of living becoming more advanced as one gets wiser and older?

Take for instance the string of "Liberty Mutual" commercials. If I didn't have great insurance right now, I would switch in a heartbeat to them JUST BECAUSE of the commercial depicting how one person takes the time out to help a stranger and another sees it and does the same.

[youtube:1nejqore]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD0Sz91Fd7U[/youtube:1nejqore]


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## C5GUY (Mar 22, 2012)

SURVIVAL---
I would love to live in a time and a place that was like that on this commercial. I am willing to look for the best in people, all people, and hope to continue this trait even when SHTF. However, in my years and maybe due to my career path I have also learned to be aware of others and would not hesitate to protect my family to the extent that is needed. I do think a bad situation will both make those that are good and those that are bad rise to the top of the list quickly.


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## amym505 (Feb 10, 2012)

My husband's grandparents lived in a very rural and remote part of Mississippi during the depression. He said they had a table on their front porch, and that individuals and even families would come through looking for work and a meal. His uncle and grandmother would always feed them, but would not give them work, because they could not sustain feeding them for any period of time. They asked the wanderers to move on after a meal and maybe let them wash up.


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## Wife 1.0 (Mar 23, 2012)

C5GUY said:


> Easy answer for me. For the last 5 or more generations in the USA we have trained people to be rewarded for doing nothing. We provide food, shelter and money to people that have never worked for it and now have raised their families to expect others to care for their needs. They actually now think they are owed these benefits and resent those that have more even if they worked their tails off to have what they have. When the SHTF these people will be among the first to demand that others give them what they need or they will feel free to try and take what they want. These people will be expendable to those that are prepared.
> C5GUY


Totally. My husband and I have just recently got into serious prepping. Before it was more of a "hypothetical" thing. But we talk about this alot. My husband feels as Christians we should help and feed those wanting food...as I would like to "just agree" with him I can't. You see we've already had homeless people come to our door (we live in a very populated city) and because of our very "outspoken" car (scriptures on it) they come asking for money referencing Christ (like we are bad people if we don't help them). My husband against my wishes has given these mooches 20 dollars and a ride to a store. They came back and he gave them 10 dollars on a seperate occasion and I told him they are only going to keep coming back he told them not to though. 6 months went by and they came to the door assuming he was home but he wasn't only I was with my 2 children (at the time) and pregnant with our 3rd. I don't enjoy having strange people coming to the door begging for things alone with my kids at home. I've since bought several firearms and ammo to go with them just in case. Anyway back to the story. They saw my expression when I answered the door (less than charitable) they asked for the "guy who drives the van" and I told them he's not home and reminded them that he told them not to come back yet here you are. They gave me some sob story about how they are waiting for their social security checks and they just need 20 bucks to make it. I told them I didn't have any money for them and told them to leave. In a WROL (SHTF) situation I can see mooches like this coming to the door all the time. I won't steal food from my kids for these people. I told my husband I'll make some hardtack and put a bucket of clean water at the corner of the yard so strangers can come get some hard tack and some water to drink but that's it. He said something about giving them a plate of food on the front porch and not letting them in telling them not to come back. Like I told him problem is they will come back again and again because it's easier than finding food themselves. Or they could just blackmail us "give me a bunch of provisions or I'll tell everyone you have food". I think my idea (food in a enclosed container/water bucket) with a sign posted on the door "we don't have any extra food go away or be shot" is the best option. I think it's a sensitive topic sorry if I sound mean but I've had experience already with money and I'd rather just stick a gun in their face and tell them to leave. I would hate for children to starve or old folks but if it's my kid losing food for strangers that won't care for themselves sorry it ain't happnin'.

wife 1.0


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## C5GUY (Mar 22, 2012)

Well said WIFE 1.0...well said. There is a thing called common sense that you will have to start slowly teaching to your husband. I am all for helping those that help themselves.


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## Peter Prepper (Feb 4, 2012)

Drugs, class A drugs, these days class A drugs are everywhere, back in the day the only drug was alcohol, but now, if somebody comes knocking at your door its usually because they need money for drugs or some other addicted substance, if 50 years ago somebody knocked at your door or spoke to you when passing it would be normaly a food or small change request, these days its for a habit feeding request, you get benefit money here in England to spend on food and heating if you are unable to work, if you are asking for money from strangers its because you need to fund/finance an addiction, usually.


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## C5GUY (Mar 22, 2012)

I particularly like it when the person asking me for help is puffing away on a cigarette that costs $5.50 a pack. Makes me want to do backflips to help them out...poor things.


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## acidlittle (Jan 24, 2012)

I saw a panhandler on the corner daily on my way to work for awhile, he had a dog, so one day I pulled up and gave him 4 cans of food (peaches,2 beans, spam) and a 5lb bag of pretty high quality dog food. The guy looked at me and said, I'd rather have cash for cigarettes and beer.....I pulled my arm back in the car with my food, left the dog food and drove off....he flipped me off everyday after that until he wasn't there one day. Don't know what happened but when people are ungrateful for charity it's very disheartening.
Same, he had a gorgeous Visla...


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## C5GUY (Mar 22, 2012)

acidlittle said:


> I saw a panhandler on the corner daily on my way to work for awhile, he had a dog, so one day I pulled up and gave him 4 cans of food (peaches,2 beans, spam) and a 5lb bag of pretty high quality dog food. The guy looked at me and said, I'd rather have cash for cigarettes and beer.....I pulled my arm back in the car with my food, left the dog food and drove off....he flipped me off everyday after that until he wasn't there one day. Don't know what happened but when people are ungrateful for charity it's very disheartening.
> Same, he had a gorgeous Visla...


I frequently see cases where the dogs are smarter than the owners. In some cases they even look better than the owners.


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## RalphS (Nov 3, 2011)

I stopped and gave a man a bunch of bananas once, he jumped up and down like it was the best thing in the world. The same year, there were some young adults (age 20ish, male/female about 4 of them) that was standing outside lot of Walmart, had a sign that said no gas. People were stopping and handing them money like crazy. I was at the walmart gas pumps and I was watching them laughing after the car pulled off, saluting to them mocking as if they were saying Thanks Suckers! The entire time they were eating little debbie cakes and Mt. Dew. A week later, same place, but this time it was only two, one girl and boy that had been there previously with a different sign that said traveling somewhere God Bless. Scam all the way around, and disrespectful.


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## Wife 1.0 (Mar 23, 2012)

acidlittle said:


> I saw a panhandler on the corner daily on my way to work for awhile, he had a dog, so one day I pulled up and gave him 4 cans of food (peaches,2 beans, spam) and a 5lb bag of pretty high quality dog food. The guy looked at me and said, I'd rather have cash for cigarettes and beer.....I pulled my arm back in the car with my food, left the dog food and drove off....he flipped me off everyday after that until he wasn't there one day. Don't know what happened but when people are ungrateful for charity it's very disheartening.
> Same, he had a gorgeous Visla...


What a total worthless scumbag. My husband wants a Vizsla. (for hunting and family dog fun) I don't like to give money anymore either because I've been lied to about what it's for. I had two guys come up to me at Mcdonalds looking for money for "food" and I gave them 5 bucks and they walked out of the parking lot to the mini mart to get beer/cigarettes probably. I said "get the big size beer it's cheaper!" I prefer buying a bag of cheap fast food and giving it to them now. The thing that irritates me most is the "God Bless you." on their signs...nothing like a guilt trip like they even worship God most of the time too. I think a lot have dogs not just for protection from others but because animal lovers will give them more money to feed the dog. (good idea about the dog food too-that way they can't eat it but the dog can-serves the jerk right)

wife 1.0


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

C5GUY said:


> Easy answer for me. For the last 5 or more generations in the USA we have trained people to be rewarded for doing nothing. We provide food, shelter and money to people that have never worked for it and now have raised their families to expect others to care for their needs. They actually now think they are owed these benefits and resent those that have more even if they worked their tails off to have what they have. When the SHTF these people will be among the first to demand that others give them what they need or they will feel free to try and take what they want. These people will be expendable to those that are prepared.
> C5GUY


I don't know if I would go as far back as 5 generations (great,great grandparents), but definately the last 3 decades. I work in public education and I see the sense of entitlement that many of our kids have these days. Then I talk to their parents and see where they get it from. You are absolutely right in your assertion that our society has somehow morphed into a reward system that cheers for mediocrity and punishes those that work hard. It has become nothing more than a matter of "not wanting to hurt their feelings or leave them with a low self esteem" mentality.

The experience of failure is no longer an option as they will "feel bad". Anyone notice that children are no longer "held back" to repeat a grade in school? It's because somewhere, someone detemined that it was "emotionally devastating". What's the message? We will continue, year after year, to reward you for doing absolutely nothing, while providing no more, and no less support, to those who have actually earned it. Our education system is a socialist system, where all are treated equally so as to not hurt their feelings. And then there are the "elementary graduations"...where eveyone gets some sort of mention and certificate, right down to "Best Tire Swing Participant".

Sports are the same way. Kids have learned "that as long as my parents pay a fee and I show up once in a while, I get rewarded with a trophy and a t-shirt." This is the same mentality that rears it's ugly head in education. I can't count the number of "gratuitous" diplomas, "you get to graduate" scenarios I have watched. I have watched kids, where it was mathematically impossible for them to ever graduate from high school before the age of 21, walk down the aisle and receive their diploma. Why? Because their parents threw a big enough fit, or that kid was a big enough pain in the ass, that it was easier to get rid of them. And what about the kid that fought tooth and nail to just barely squeek through? No one gave a shit, because at least they had a good self esteem.

I didn't get my diploma. And it was the schools fault. I transfered from a semester system to a trimester system. The new school screwed up my credit conversion and had me take more required courses, and fewer electives, than I needed. One week before graduation they called me in and went "ooops, sorry, our mistake. And you don't get to graduate." My parents didn't go screaming into the principals office. They said "if you don't have them, you don't have them. And you'll need to make them up if you want your diploma." I quit school that afternoon, still passed all of my current classes w/o taking the finals, was 2 elective credits short, got my GED and went to college. Incident over. No fit throwing. No "you owe me". Nothing. Here's the situation, here are my options, here is my decision.

I busted a kid with marijuana and paraphernalia in their car recently. That student purposely hit me with their car and then tried to run over the Asst. Principal. The parents? Well, apparently the entire situation was my fault and I got what I deserved. The student screamed "suicide" to mommy right after the incident, mommy went "now now baby, it's okay. It wasn't your fault. Let me dry those tears and we'll go shopping." And they were at the local Y a few hours later working out with friends.

So yes, our society has experienced a serious moral decline. Which accelerated exponentially rIght about the time Corporal Punishment was taken out of the schools. And yes, these are the same self entitlers that will knock on your door and then take by force what is yours, because they feel they need it. More importantly because they want it. They have learned that it is acceptable, because that is how they have been rewarded throughout their entire life. If you can't earn it, just take it.


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## C5GUY (Mar 22, 2012)

I agree it does start with the parents and always has. We recently went to a local soccer game for kids 6 to 9 and when I asked what the score was (we got there after the game had started) one of the parents gave me a go to hell look and told me that they did not keep score since it was just a game and not important who won or who loss. As usual my mouth was in gear before my brain and I told him that in REAL life people keep score and there are winner and losers but that it was his kids and if he wanted them to believe otherwise then knock yourself out. He took his $250 lawn chair and moved away. He showed me I guess. Now we will never exchange Christmas cards. From that game on for the rest of the season I KEPT score and made sure that the kids knew the score when they came in after the game.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

C5GUY said:


> I agree it does start with the parents and always has. We recently went to a local soccer game for kids 6 to 9 and when I asked what the score was (we got there after the game had started) one of the parents gave me a go to hell look and told me that they did not keep score since it was just a game and not important who won or who loss. As usual my mouth was in gear before my brain and I told him that in REAL life people keep score and there are winner and losers but that it was his kids and if he wanted them to believe otherwise then knock yourself out. He took his $250 lawn chair and moved away. He showed me I guess. Now we will never exchange Christmas cards. From that game on for the rest of the season I KEPT score and made sure that the kids knew the score when they came in after the game.


 ::clapping::


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## Wife 1.0 (Mar 23, 2012)

Our daughter has played soccer 3 years in a row now and received a trophy every year "just because". (they all get a trophy) and again no one keeps score they think it's "not nice" to "make the kids feel bad if they lose" and they make the parents sign an "I will not shout during the game" form ie not cheerfully telling the child what to do either. We are supposed to "cheer" for the other team too when they get a goal on our kids. It's just liberal PCism. Totally annoying. I like your idea about keeping score to tell the kids because when it is "just a game" they need to have some kind of competitive spirit to improve their skills. Back when I was in Junior High/High School my brother played Babe Ruth league baseball. They actually kept score, and tried to intimidate the other team. (I'm only 36 yrs. old) 

I remember when I chased boys in school and kissed them on the cheek too, my little sister tried that (she's 13 years younger) and they suspended her for "sexual harassment"...insanity.


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## C5GUY (Mar 22, 2012)

I grew up in a south Arkansas town of like 60K back in the 50's & 60's. This town was and still is big time into baseball. Due to this fact there were more boys that wanted to play ball than there were teams available. I tired out...key thing is "tried out"....for Little League when I was 9 years old along with two of my then best friends. Due to mainly luck I was the only one out of the three that made a team that year. The other two guys while disappointed remained my friends and still are to this day. If you do not play in life to win then why play at all???


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

TEOTWAWKI - It's been buggin' me for days...and I just got it. The End Of The World As We Know It....Can I have a trophy now?


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## Dreams (Mar 27, 2012)

there has always been drugs and alcohol... even back then...perhaps not to this extent, but the fact is, people had more respect for each other, and like others said, they had greater morals. People worked until the SHTF.. so when they needed help, they stood in lines for food, or went to their neighbors who might be able to help , not as someone who felt they were OWED, but as a humble human being who was in a really shitty position. They didnt take the help they got for granted, and they didnt TAKE what wasnt theirs.

Today, you have people who feel they are owed something.. instead of asking for something, they just steal it. From our gardens.. from our stores.. kids and adults alike have no respect for others property.. they have no self respect.. morals are not high on their list of priorities.. just luxury items they feel they need to survive.. I also blame the government. 

Im an old soul... I believe that good begets good.. and I try to help when I can.. which could be my one vice, and one my husband loves me for but hates at the same time.

I use to work in PA at a clothing store.. because we did inventory a few nights a week, my end shift time was normally around midnight-1am. Every night, I would stop at the all night deli, and pick up a big sandwich combo with chips and drink. It started out as my dinner (as I was starving by then).. but I realized that before I got to the bridge to go back to NJ, I would catch the last light, which was on a one way street by a very bad park... and there was always a homeless person wrapped in a blanket and holding a cup for spare change. Ok, Im not that stupid, that I would give them cash.. even at 19, I knew what they used it for... So, I started giving them the meal I would buy.. and it became an every night thing. One night, I had a few things on my mind, and I forgot about the damn pot hole on the block before the light.. and in my tiny fiero, I hit it.. well, can we day serious flat tire?  And it just so happens it hit as I approached the light.. so I had to pull over along side the park.. I was TERRIFIED to say the least.. Well, a few of them recognized my car.. and I recognized them.. I cracked my window down, and the one I saw the most told me that they would sit with me until someone came to help.. And they did... one walked with me to the pay phone a few cars away... and the other two sat with the car.. I know, it might have been bad of me to trust these people... but in all honesty, I had no cell phone, and I didnt have much choice.. I only had one meal but they didnt care.. they were gracious and thankful.. not once asking for money... and they did what they said and waited with me until my friend drove over with the spare. Now.. I changed my own flat... and in the process of doing so, a mechanic pulled up in his ever so equipped tow and er truck.. and he rolled down his window , leaned on his arm and just watched me.. I looked at him and asked him if there was something I could help him with, and his response.. "no, I just never saw a woman change a tire before"... he laughed and drove away. :| Fully capable man..

I protect my own.. however I am not totally closed to helping others if I am capable.. I would not put my family in harms way, or make them do without... but I dont like to see someone suffer, and I personally would like to remain an old soul, and keep that little bit of compassion. You never know when it will come back to help you when you really need it yourself..

did I stay on topic? LOL..


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