# For those who think handguns have stopping power



## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

Cleveland PD shoots a man with a handgun, man just keep on fighting unconcerned about the bullet hole in him. The last time I checked Cleveland PD issues M&P 40's.

Now chances are this guy was on something, but chances are if you have to shoot someone they will be too. Food for thought.


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## soyer38301 (Jul 27, 2017)

One shot though...I can't see where it hit, so take that into account also...but what ever he was on was heavy stuff.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## RubberDuck (May 27, 2016)

It did have stopping power he went down instantly it was the cops mistake to not end the threat with follow up shots.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

RubberDuck said:


> It did have stopping power he went down instantly it was the cops mistake to not end the threat with follow up shots.


Never stop until the threat is no longer a threat.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

soyer38301 said:


> One shot though...I can't see where it hit, so take that into account also...but what ever he was on was heavy stuff.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Probably a crack head they are invincible.


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## slownsteady22 (May 16, 2018)

First shot did have an effect he just needed more perforation.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

If he was shot, it sure didn't do a damned thing to the round.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

When the criminal got back up and charged I was surprised that there were not follow up shots. It took three officers to physically put this guy down after shooting him. Unreal.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Massad Ayoob reported a story where a perp took 33 hollowpoints and one slug from a shotgun. The police believed him to be on PCP, but he was just angry.

The story ended with Ayoob relating, "The defendant is now awaiting trial..."


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

In video games you can just keep shooting because he got back up. In real life unless he is holding a weapon of some kind continuing to shoot results in criminal and/or civil trials, no more job/pension, and a potential prison term. If just being alive is your goal then popping off 5-6 more rounds make sense, if you want to be alive and continue your quality of life than you have to come up with a better plan and you have about .036 seconds to do it.

We had a deputy shoot a man charging at him with a knife 4 times with a .45acp. All 4 rounds connected center of mass. The man continued to run at him and stabbed the deputy several times. The bag guy is in prison but is still very much alive. A year later we had a homeowner fire a single 9mm FMJ round from 10' away instantly killing an intruder. Handgun rounds require a lot of luck to be effective.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

I'm reminded of this incident:


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## Lowtechredneck (May 7, 2018)

Don't forget to take the round into consideration. Ball ammo tends to go straight through, hollow points are another matter entirely.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Simple shot placement. Anybody that has hunted knows you can shoot an animal and it will run away. Pistol, rifle or bow it doesn't matter. Don't hit a vital, disable the bone structure or break the electronics and your in for a long track or a lost animal. Which could run for miles. Human isn't any different.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Head shot usually takes care of 'em. 93 out a hundred


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

That guy acted like he was stoked on an hallucinogen, or something; but he was as high as a kite. It would have taken a brain shot to stop his progress, from the looks of it.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

patrioteer said:


> In video games you can just keep shooting because he got back up. *In real life unless he is holding a weapon of some kind continuing to shoot results in criminal and/or civil trials, no more job/pension, and a potential prison term.* If just being alive is your goal then popping off 5-6 more rounds make sense, if you want to be alive and continue your quality of life than you have to come up with a better plan and you have about .036 seconds to do it.
> 
> We had a deputy shoot a man charging at him with a knife 4 times with a .45acp. All 4 rounds connected center of mass. The man continued to run at him and stabbed the deputy several times. The bag guy is in prison but is still very much alive. A year later we had a homeowner fire a single 9mm FMJ round from 10' away instantly killing an intruder. Handgun rounds require a lot of luck to be effective.


I'm not really sure where you got that information, . . . a threat is a threat, . . . and as long as the perp is a threat, . . . there is no reason to quit shooting.

Down and bleeding out, . . . OK, . . . don't go over and put one between his eyes for good measure.

Still fighting?? Keep shooting, . . . that is the law everywhere I know of here in the states.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

There is no rifle round out there men have not walked away from. I know several that have been shot with mythical AK47 still around to show the mark . And then there is the Bears or two that have been killed with a 22 . Some times it is your lucky, others not.
I know a man that put a 12ga right under his chin and fired. He is still alive and after a lot of surgery it looks like a car accident , but not all that bad.


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

dwight55 said:


> I'm not really sure where you got that information, . . . a threat is a threat, . . . and as long as the perp is a threat, . . . there is no reason to quit shooting.
> 
> Down and bleeding out, . . . OK, . . . don't go over and put one between his eyes for good measure.
> 
> ...


I got it from 27 years of law enforcement experience, most of which as a use of force instructor and OIS (officer involved shooting) investigator. What is and is not a threat is subjectively judged by people who are not under the stress of an active incident and have all the time in the world to review the available evidence. Would a jury of your peers see an unarmed shirtless man with no weapon and a bullet hole in him as an immediate threat requiring you to continue shooting? Remember these same peers often wonder why cops don't just shoot people in the leg who are holding knives and axes.

But again there is surviving the encounter and there is winning the encounter, and those two things are not always the same thing.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

I think we all forget, many people are not trained for high stress shooting, ie that cop. 

And, as many have said, when a person is under influence of drugs or severe anger, they can accomplish allot before the body gives out.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

No handgun has "stopping" power.
Some have deterent power.
The movies depict handguns blowing the bad guys backwards. Bull!
Research the real world shootouts.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

About the most intensive tests I ever saw were the ones conducted by the LEAA after the Miami FBI shooting.

The leader (at that time) was the Federal 125 grain .357 Magnum. It is my belief that this is the reason the 357 SIG bottleneck round came out for the Glock. The SIG and the Federal are about an eyelash apart in performance.


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## maine_rm (Jun 24, 2017)

tango said:


> No handgun has "stopping" power.
> Some have deterent power.
> The movies depict handguns blowing the bad guys backwards. Bull!
> Research the real world shootouts.


Really? Ever fire a Smith & Wesson 500? I can turn a cinderblock to Dust.. two shots id like to see a purp Walk off from that one. Or about the classic Taurus judge. That usually stops in pretty quick as well. I'm with most of the others it's about shot placement not what's in your hand.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Steve40th said:


> ............And, as many have said, when a person is under influence of drugs or severe anger, they can accomplish allot before the body gives out.


Like this thug, who took, IFIAK, at least 11 holes in him (not counting any possible exit wounds), and still managed to drag his thieving arse to the hospital.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

patrioteer said:


> I got it from 27 years of law enforcement experience, most of which as a use of force instructor and OIS (officer involved shooting) investigator. What is and is not a threat is subjectively judged by people who are not under the stress of an active incident and have all the time in the world to review the available evidence. Would a jury of your peers see an unarmed shirtless man with no weapon and a bullet hole in him as an immediate threat requiring you to continue shooting? Remember these same peers often wonder why cops don't just shoot people in the leg who are holding knives and axes.
> 
> But again there is surviving the encounter and there is winning the encounter, and those two things are not always the same thing.


I'm not going to run you to the rails on your experience, . . . but IF, . . . and I say IF, . . . the policy is "one shot then look to see if any damage is done before shooting again", . . . somebody didn't get that message in at least three scenarios that I can remember, . . . and of course there was the infamous Miami shootout:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nypd-84-shots-brooklyn_us_55ec4b31e4b093be51bbb978

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/san-francisco-police-officers-fired-65-shots-at-murder-suspect/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...shot-grandparents-stephon-clark-a8268881.html

I personally subscribe to two ideals when dealing with the possibility of using deadly force: 1) better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, . . . and 2) it's always easier to obtain forgiveness than it is to get permission.

My old military training says that two bullets on the second button down from the neck will usually stop a fight, . . . and personally, . . . I believe it, . . . it is just sometimes a second or third application may be necessary.

That is why I virtually never venture out with anything less than 8+1 and seven or 8+1 and 6, . . . depending on the weapon I'm carrying.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> About the most intensive tests I ever saw were the ones conducted by the LEAA after the Miami FBI shooting.
> 
> The leader (at that time) was the Federal 125 grain .357 Magnum. It is my belief that this is the reason the 357 SIG bottleneck round came out for the Glock. The SIG and the Federal are about an eyelash apart in performance.


The full house 125 grain JHP or JSP .357 magnum is loaded to achieve 1450 FPS out of a 6" vented barrel. Vented to simulate a revolver.
This is the load (by Remington) I carry in both my pocket revolver and my truck revolver.

Many companies down-load to about 1200 FPS to reduce recoil - Remington's Golden Saber for example. To make up for the lower velocity, the Golden Saber bullet jacket is skived around the hollow point opening to help initiate expansion. They are supposed to work.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

dwight55 said:


> I'm not going to run you to the rails on your experience, . . . but IF, . . . and I say IF, . . . the policy is "one shot then look to see if any damage is done before shooting again", . . . somebody didn't get that message in at least three scenarios that I can remember, . . . and of course there was the infamous Miami shootout:
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nypd-84-shots-brooklyn_us_55ec4b31e4b093be51bbb978
> 
> ...


I like and subscribe to your #1 and #2 ideals. I have a third: dead men tell no tales... meaning, it's always best if no assailant/armed robber/would-be murderer is left around to contradict my version of the story.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

maine rm,
Who edc's a 500?


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

patrioteer said:


> In video games you can just keep shooting because he got back up. *In real life unless he is holding a weapon of some kind continuing to shoot results in criminal and/or civil trials, no more job/pension, and a potential prison term. If just being alive is your goal then popping off 5-6 more rounds make sense, if you want to be alive and continue your quality of life than you have to come up with a better plan and you have about .036 seconds to do it.*
> 
> We had a deputy shoot a man charging at him with a knife 4 times with a .45acp. All 4 rounds connected center of mass. The man continued to run at him and stabbed the deputy several times. The bag guy is in prison but is still very much alive. A year later we had a homeowner fire a single 9mm FMJ round from 10' away instantly killing an intruder. Handgun rounds require a lot of luck to be effective.


And thats all fine and dandy for the boys in blue. But in my state as a civilian we have no duty to retreat. It doesn't matter if the attacker is only holding a garbage can lid or a cucumber if life is threatened you keep shooting until the threat has stopped.

And the old saying goes..... A dead man can't talk or sue you later.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

hawgrider said:


> ............... A dead man can't ............. sue you later.


But his family definitely will.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> But his family definitely will.


Maybe ... but if the perp is dead he is one less that can sue.


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> But his family definitely will be glad the loser is toast.


Hey you changed my words knock that crap off.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

hawgrider said:


> Maybe ... but if the perp is dead he is one less that can sue.


You'll still be bankrupt after just one civil suit.



hawgrider said:


> Hey knock my head off.


Make me. :devil:


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> You'll still be bankrupt after just one civil suit.
> 
> Make me. :devil:


Take my chances in court.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

hawgrider said:


> Probably a crack head they are invincible.


Think PCP is the most likely culprit. Just guessing. 
https://drugabuse.com/library/the-effects-of-pcp-use/


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> Think PCP is the most likely culprit. Just guessing.
> https://drugabuse.com/library/the-effects-of-pcp-use/


Yup your right thats what I meant to say... They are Super powered Zombies on that crap.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Research the reason the 1911 45 was put into service in the first place. While not just one reason there is some truth to the Myths attached to it.

The History of the 1911 Pistol.


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## maine_rm (Jun 24, 2017)

tango said:


> maine rm,
> Who edc's a 500?


Why else would you own one lol. I have a friend with a rather large gun collection. Not me I only own BB guns an airsoft pistols. But this friend of mine gets a lot of compliments when he carries. Very little attitude though


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Waiting for toxicology report


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