# Another strike against electric cars



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

We all know many negative points to owning an electric car. Limited speed, range, cost, battery life. Now with a soft ware change, increased mileage with a charge, Elmo concerns

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ore-battery-juice-heres-why-thats-a-big-deal/

If they can increase it, they can cut it or shut it off when needed most. Being able to use electric from wind or solar may be attractive but you need to keep control. In the article the up grade was made temporarily available and the consumer had to make it happen. Who will control it in the streamlined automated future?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

> The decision highlights *one of the most innovative aspects of owning a Tesla*. The company's ability to add range instantly to a vehicle, using software, is something no conventional car can achieve. You can't simply make a gas tank bigger at the click of a button.


That's funny.
I've never seen the word "Orwellian" spelled I-N-N-O-V-A-T-I-V-E.

You sure can't make a gas tank bigger that way.
You can't make it smaller that way either.

I had no idea they were selling identical hardware vehicles, only with "features" disabled.
I'm sorry, but if I pay you money, and you give me a 75kwh battery, I damn well better be able to use that full 75kwh battery without some byte code telling me I have permission.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> I had no idea they were selling identical hardware vehicles, only with "features" disabled.
> I'm sorry, but if I pay you money, and you give me a 75kwh battery, I damn well better be able to use that full 75kwh battery without some byte code telling me I have permission.


The purchaser got what they paid for. At purchase time they chose a cheaper option with less range/battery capacity. They would not be shocked that there was more power available with a software fix. As opposed to having different battery configurations, Tesla has one battery & if you choose a cheaper option, they just restrict that battery to what you paid for. Seems rather smart to me, by maximizing production efficiencies plus gives the buyer a simple way to increase range later by paying more.

Actually this is no different than say internet speed. Depending on what you pay, the exact same hardware can produce different speed for the user.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

******* said:


> The purchaser got what they paid for. At purchase time they chose a cheaper option with less range/battery capacity. They would not be shocked that there was more power available with a software fix. As opposed to having different battery configurations, Tesla has one battery & if you choose a cheaper option, they just restrict that battery to what you paid for. Seems rather smart to me, by maximizing production efficiencies plus gives the buyer a simple way to increase range later by paying more.
> 
> Actually this is no different than say internet speed. Depending on what you pay, the exact same hardware can produce different speed for the user.


Yeah, I read what they do.
I still think it's crap.
They literally "sell" you more capability for thousands of dollars more, when the car already possesses the capacity to do it.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Electric cars are no better than conventional fuel burning. They all get their energy from something.
The only way to make cars more efficient is via weight reduction.
Take a 80's CRX and add a modern engine and transmission for example.
But, reality is what it is. Electric cars get energy to be stored in their batteries from a power plant that burns some form of fuel.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

My opinion, IF the hardware is there and you paid for it, 

you should have full access to it, the software block is bullshit IMHO.

I bought a CNC milling machine for $163,000 with a software package including a CADCAM system and computer.

I found out that half of the memory was blocked when going through the operational update print out,

after the software update was installed about 3 months later. I called the company, 

Cincinnati Milacron, and asked for the code to open it up. they told me I would have to pay for it,

I told them to come and take out the machine, it was financed by them, told them no more payments would be coming.

Three days later their mainframe connected to mine and downloaded the needed patch,

there was no internet at that time, direct dial up. 

I had timeshare on their mainframe also as part of the package.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Steve40th said:


> Electric cars are no better than conventional fuel burning. They all get their energy from something.
> The only way to make cars more efficient is via weight reduction.
> Take a 80's CRX and add a modern engine and transmission for example.
> But, reality is what it is. Electric cars get energy to be stored in their batteries from a power plant that burns some form of fuel.


But that energy doesn't have to come from fossil fuel. It can come from solar, nuclear, water, wind, tidal currents, etc. Even then, a few power plants burning fuel would be cleaner than millions of cars & their emissions. Then besides that, power plants have excess capacity at night when demand is low, and that is when most cars would be charged.

We need to get away from burning these fuels and electric cars are the future and our biggest hope. Even if you believe the emissions don't harm the planet in some way, we need to greatly restrict the amount of oil consumed, for no other reason than to keep our money here. In 2016, the United States imported approximately 10.1 million barrels per day (MMb/d) of petroleum from about 70 countries.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

******* said:


> But that energy doesn't have to come from fossil fuel. It can come from solar, nuclear, water, wind, tidal currents, etc. Even then, a few power plants burning fuel would be cleaner than millions of cars & their emissions. Then besides that, power plants have excess capacity at night when demand is low, and that is when most cars would be charged.
> 
> We need to get away from burning these fuels and electric cars are the future and our biggest hope. Even if you believe the emissions don't harm the planet in some way, we need to greatly restrict the amount of oil consumed, for no other reason than to keep our money here. In 2016, the United States imported approximately 10.1 million barrels per day (MMb/d) of petroleum from about 70 countries.


Yep, too many factors play into the actual issues associated with energy and cars in general. But, one thing that bothers me with electric cars is there manufacturing and disposal of Lion batteries.
There is pros and cons to all.
Now, if we could get tree huggers to stop flying.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Question: the lithium batteries are way more toxic than the emissions over the life time of comparable vehicles. So how do you make the planet greener when in the end the pollution is worse?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

******* said:


> Actually this is no different than say internet speed. Depending on what you pay, the exact same hardware can produce different speed for the user.


On the hour long drive home, I got to thinking about this, and have determined it is a terrible analogy.

You don't pay the company for the equipment that determines your speed.
You pay the company for the SERVICE they continually provide, which is a commodity that others compete for use of.

Tesla's battery, on the other hand, is not a service that anyone else is competing for. I don't pay more for the battery in order to outcompete somebody else trying to use the remainder of the otherwise unused portion of the battery.
The hardware, and capability, is 100% in the possession of the vehicle owner.
The internet company still owns/leases the lines of transmission, and you pay more to them to use more of their line.

So again, this is crap.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

We used the batterys in the Navy. When we had one blow up and burn the vessel for 10 hours, we were fined very heavily by EPA daily for cleanup.
But, if a Prius were to have a car accident, no one is fined for the battery's if catching fire or all over the road. And, worse yet, the EPA says to just dump used batteries in the landfills. Lion is nasty to the environment.
The EPA worked to ensure car manufactures had no accountability financially etc to pollution associated with the batteries. 
The Navy did, why, I dont know.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> On the hour long drive home, I got to thinking about this, and have determined it is a terrible analogy.


You are possibly correct. I didn't think about my reply for an hour. 



Kauboy said:


> You don't pay the company for the equipment that determines your speed.
> You pay the company for the SERVICE they continually provide, which is a commodity that others compete for use of.


So your modem they provide with your service is somehow free? The cable that runs all over the country or the transmission towers are free & no cost to build or maintain? All those employees work for free?

Sorry, but I still think it a decent analogy. The modem sitting beside my computer here at home, the cabling, the satellite dish, the satellite in space are all used by all customers. By paying the service provider more, I can get more speed out of the equipment already installed. So yes, I understand that & it was explained to me with the purchase contract. With Hughesnet Gen 5, this exact equipment in my possession can give me from 10 GB to 50 GB. Seems to me you are saying I should demand 50 GB for the 10 GB price that I agreed upon at purchase.

Tesla's customers also understood at purchase how this worked. The car could have 2 different options for range & battery power, using the exact same equipment. If you want that equipment to give you more range, you pay more... otherwise you have less. And like the internet speed I mentioned, the beauty is, at any time one wants higher performance, you can do so without any servicing or new equipment... you just pay for that extra service.

Seems you folks are complaining about a product & service that was well explained to Tesla customers. I don't hear them complaining no more than I don't complain my modem is only giving me 10 GB of data as opposed to the utmost max possible.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

******* said:


> You are possibly correct. I didn't think about my reply for an hour.
> 
> So your modem they provide with your service is somehow free? The cable that runs all over the country or the transmission towers are free & no cost to build or maintain? All those employees work for free?
> 
> ...


You're still comparing apples to oranges.
The cable modem isn't the internet, nor does it determine your speed. The physical device in your possession does not constitute the beginning and end of the purchase. You are paying for a subscription service. Something that is maintained by a company and consumed by others like you. If you want to use more of the service, you pay more. You have to do this because the commodity is shared among all subscribers.

A car battery is not.
You own the entire thing. There is no continued service to the car that is required for you to continue using it. You are not buying a service that is shared among other consumers.
You OWN the car. The physical device in your possession DOES constitute the beginning and end of the purchase. If you own the entire object of purchase, you should get all the functionality of that purchase.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Money was never really in the hardware. It is in the software. That did not just start.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> You pay the company for the SERVICE they continually provide, which is a commodity that others compete for use of.
> The internet company still owns/leases the lines of transmission, and you pay more to them to use more of their line.


Actually... and I don't know about your internet provider, but mine provides me a 4 Gig connection download, but only guarantees 512.

*Rancher *


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> You OWN the car. The physical device in your possession DOES constitute the beginning and end of the purchase. If you own the entire object of purchase, you should get all the functionality of that purchase.


You get the functionality you paid for. That is the business model Tesla uses. Last time I looked this was still a free country & each business can best decide how to operate. Tesla feels it is in their best interest to have one battery and allow you to pick the level of power you want. The more you pay, the more power you get. There is nothing evil or hidden here... no more than it is for my internet provider. The folks that paid less for their Tesla knew what they had in their car & knew they would not get the full capability... because they *CHOSE* a lesser payment option. Kinda like the folks in Houston that *CHOSE* to not purchase expensive flood insurance but now expect the government to bail them out.

IMO, it is a great business model. Simplify production & get the benefits of economy of scale. Those with less money initially can upgrade their car's performance not with some expensive battery upgrade but with a software patch. Tesla, during a crisis, gave these folks that paid less a temporary freebie to help them out, yet folks like you slam them for it. I just don't understand. The folks that paid less got the full functionality of their purchase. No one has stated they got less than the power level they purchased. For those that want full capability of the car, they can *CHOOSE* to pay for that.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

If there is a program that can make the cars battery last longer, why would that cost more. Its the opposite of most cars. More power, more money. More efficiency, less power, less money.
Surprised Uncle Sammy hasnt got involved with this. if they can make the car use less resources, then Uncle Sammy usually gets involved, ie CAFE.
I understand it can be recharged by many sources, but it is still a resource being used.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Don't worry the Chinese will get it figured out. When they ban gas or diesel vehicles.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrap...ars-china-considers-move-to-ban-gas-guzzlers/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/business/china-electric-cars.html?mcubz=1


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

azrancher said:


> Actually... and I don't know about your internet provider, but mine provides me a 4 Gig connection download, but only guarantees 512.
> 
> *Rancher *


You're still sharing a service with other customers. There is no comparison to a car which you share with no other customer.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

until they produce what they are capable of producing -hybrid/electric cars are a freaking scam.


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## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

LOL, Don't you think every new vehicle produced can do the same thing. Every ECU in every vehicle can have the programming changed to get better performance, fuel economy, or a mix. Now with most cars set up with wifi they can do it on the fly. If that concerns you. This will really concern you. It monitors the last period of time as to what speed you are driving, whether the brakes were applied, what the outside temperature is, what time it is, how much brake pressure was applied, and whether the air bags were deployed. All of this info is captured when the air bags deploy.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Camel923 said:


> We all know many negative points to owning an electric car. Limited speed, range, cost, battery life. Now with a soft ware change, increased mileage with a charge, Elmo concerns
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ore-battery-juice-heres-why-thats-a-big-deal/
> 
> If they can increase it, they can cut it or shut it off when needed most. Being able to use electric from wind or solar may be attractive but you need to keep control. In the article the up grade was made temporarily available and the consumer had to make it happen. Who will control it in the streamlined automated future?


As my old hipster Earth worshiping pal from Sunny CA said. Electric cars only move the smoke stack. Bicycles are the most efficient form of human transportation yet invented. They can run 60 mph on half a cup of pinto beans or peanut butter. Cant hardly beat that.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

bigwheel said:


> As my old hipster Earth worshiping pal from Sunny CA said. Electric cars only move the smoke stack. Bicycles are the most efficient form of human transportation yet invented. They can run 60 mph on half a cup of pinto beans or peanut butter. Cant hardly beat that.


Would Organic pinto beans get you further?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

modfan said:


> LOL, Don't you think every new vehicle produced can do the same thing. Every ECU in every vehicle can have the programming changed to get better performance, fuel economy, or a mix. Now with most cars set up with wifi they can do it on the fly. If that concerns you. This will really concern you. It monitors the last period of time as to what speed you are driving, whether the brakes were applied, what the outside temperature is, what time it is, how much brake pressure was applied, and whether the air bags were deployed. All of this info is captured when the air bags deploy.


Very true, but you can easily tweak the tune on any modern PCM or ECU if you know what you're doing. Also, the factory tunes are intended to adhere to government imposed standards of fuel economy and emissions, not so they can charge you different amounts for the exact same car.


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