# Ballistics Versus Soft Targets



## Grinch2 (Sep 12, 2016)

Hello everyone, yesterday a group of individuals and I went out muzzle loader hunting, which for me I might as well carry a spear or a heavy stick. But anyways we got done and were talking about things in general surrounding hunting; we got on the topic of guns which believe it or not can sometimes turn into a heated debate among our group members. One man is buying a 340 Weatherby Magnum, I have the 30-378 and told him I liked it, to me it is a good well designed round, not the best suited for deer, nor black bear at distances less than 200 yards, however one of my favor rifles to carry. So an older man who uses what I consider " light for deer " makes the claim to all of us " those big hot-shot magnums won't do anything my 243 won't ". Well ballistically speaking I beg to differ, I understand plenty of deer have been killed with a 243 and lesser, and I also fully understand that a long standing world record brown bear was killed with one shot from a 22 short. Anyways I scoff at this man taking his word with a grain of salt, he says " those magnums blow deer all the hell, they probably cut them in half ". This is the golden statement for debate to me personally, I have seen what a 180 grain Nosler Accubond will do to a whitetail at 475 yards and the results are devastating to be frank; but no amputating affects.

So I tell this guy " well you'll never see a shoulder fired round that can tear an animal in half " then my one uncle declares " well a 50 caliber would take a man's head off "- this I believe. What I don't believe and this is a question for anyone in the military or what have you *Is it possible ?*

Granted I have little experience with a 50 caliber in general only having fired it a handful of times, but here is where I am coming from saying center mass two pieces isn't possible of an average sized man.

Point 1; temporary wound cavities are pressure from energy transferring and air displacement the so called " shock " from being hit by a penetrating projectile. During this temporary wound cavity cells of the body are pushed outwards away from this central impact/pass through, now this displaces cells in such a radical way many times they burst causing separation. However not in such an extreme event where a torso could be actually separated completely. From ballistic tests I have seen the temporary wound cavity of a 50 caliber is larger than the torso itself, however this does not mean that every cell is destroyed in a direct path causing an utter separation. You're dealing with not only soft tissue such as muscle and flesh but also a lot of bone.

Point 2; final point also, based on what I have experienced there isn't a bullet designed for " slicing " there are plenty of these fracturing " multiple wound cavity " producing projectiles being produced for single projectile objects. But none that could actually cut as some may intend.

To me it all falls apart before it even starts, the idea of it to me is insane to think it could happen, your ballistics aren't there and neither is your bullet design. I understand it is capable from a larger non-shoulder fired weapon like rockets and artillery but not from a shoulder fired weapon. Does anyone have anything to add and maybe disagree with me on this ? It's just for settling my own questions since I do not have experience with a 50 caliber.

It is a weapon system I have on my bucket list, would not be ideal for survival but nothing is everyone's golden goose. There is no shortage of ammunition from my wanderings.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Why would anyone want a round that can tear a deer in half? Having such massive overkill may be useful if you're a lousy shot but I see no reason to use a weapon larger than what it takes to deliver 800 ft lbs of energy at the target distance and fly fast enough to maintain reasonable ballistics at that distance. Actually 300 ft/lbs energy is more than enough but I suggest 800 ft/lbs in case you hit a bone.

I would suggest that those guys loved to play "Mine is Bigger than Yours:


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Well, a 308 or 30/06 will remove most of the cranium from the hydrostatic shock generated entering the cavity.

I personally seen it many times.

Yes a Cal. 50 M-2 round will completely remove it from the energy transfer.

At almost 5,000 FPS the SLAP round results are dramatic, for an anti armor round.

This is a APDS DU or sintered tungsten round.

A Cal. 50 SLAP round will separate both half's mid torso, throwing the internals about 30 feet past impact,

and in some cases dislocating(break) the neck from the forces generated, along with forcing the colon out of the rectum..

Now this does not apply to low velocity muzzle loaders.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I want a round that will kill, field dress, butcher, age and freeze my meat.


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## Grinch2 (Sep 12, 2016)

John Galt said:


> Why would anyone want a round that can tear a deer in half? Having such massive overkill may be useful if you're a lousy shot but I see no reason to use a weapon larger than what it takes to deliver 800 ft lbs of energy at the target distance and fly fast enough to maintain reasonable ballistics at that distance. Actually 300 ft/lbs energy is more than enough but I suggest 800 ft/lbs in case you hit a bone.
> 
> I would suggest that those guys loved to play "Mine is Bigger than Yours:


None of us are considering using a 50 caliber for deer, you missed the question's directive completely; I was asking if it is possible. And you say you " see no reason to use a weapon larger than what it takes to deliver 800 ft lbs of energy at the target distance and fly fast enough to maintain reasonable ballistics at that distance ". What distance are you talking about because within a 100 yards you see no reason for using anything more than a 223 ? Granted if you were hunting smaller bodied deer say in Texas over food plots where you could get a perfect shot it would be alright, but for Northern whitetails where you're most of the time snap shooting you want a little more terminal shock. Now of course Jim Jordan killed his buck with a 25-20 but he was a subject to circumstance ( oh yeah and he shot it quite a few times ).


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

Bigger is not always better. IIRC a guy named Bell routinely hunted elephant in Africa with a 7mm Mauser. Shot placement is the key.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Shot placement is number one. Hunting- I want to drop the game and have meat. Self defense -what will stop the aggressor immediately and perferabellly knock the aggressor down and away while achieving incapacitation


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

csi-tech said:


> I want a round that will kill, field dress, butcher, age and freeze my meat.


You do know of course that your desire is one of our ancestor's greatest losses.

My Native American ancestors had such a round, . . . used it quite often.

They were often times pretty good size rounds, . . . in the 200 pounds per foot range.

It was called the "squaw" round, . . . or maybe better stated the "round squaw", . . . often times about 40 inches around..........:vs_blush:

They even made jerky and pemmican for ya.

To this day, we rue the loss.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

"So I tell this guy " well you'll never see a shoulder fired round that can tear an animal in half " then my one uncle declares " well a 50 caliber would take a man's head off "- this I believe. What I don't believe and this is a question for anyone in the military or what have you *Is it possible ?"*

View attachment 35233

The .50 BMG will do this, it will split the skull wide open; because it has an ME of 10,000 ft lbs, or thereabouts.
http://www.gunslot.com/pictures/first-battle-falluja-50-cal-domeThe Firing Line has a ballistics chart, and it has the ME, as 11.000 ft lbs. 
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486551


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

MisterMills357 said:


> "So I tell this guy " well you'll never see a shoulder fired round that can tear an animal in half " then my one uncle declares " well a 50 caliber would take a man's head off "- this I believe. What I don't believe and this is a question for anyone in the military or what have you *Is it possible ?"*
> 
> View attachment 35233
> 
> ...


OMG is That Achmed or Mohammed?
Glad he's humping on those 72 Virgins...


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

A mortar or an artillery round will blow a man to smithereens, and that is what it takes to do that sort of thing. There have been incidents in battle, where all that was left of an American GI were his boots.
That is documented as happening; but, no rifle will ever do that, it takes an explosive.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Urinal Cake said:


> OMG is That Achmed or Mohammed?
> Glad he's humping on those 72 Virgins...


This is not the only case of it happening friend. I watched a You Tube, of a sniper doing it to a Taliban bad guy; who was trying to take cover behind a rock. 
He blew the guys' turban off of his head, and the head was split wide open, just like Achmed there in the pic. 
They coulda been twins or sumthin, and _*that*_ sniper was using a Barrett or a similar gun. It was a very long shot across a canyon, and I will bet that the Taliban guy was really surprised.:vs_shocked:


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> Well, a 308 or 30/06 will remove most of the cranium from the hydrostatic shock generated entering the cavity.
> 
> I personally seen it many times.
> 
> ...


Yep he is right on target with this reply. As a Weapons Tech I have seen it happen as discribed above with 308/7.62 and the 50 BMG! A 50 BMG is truly impressive inside 2000 yards...you have to see it with your own eyes to believe it!

Dont underestimate that dimenutive 243. Its not a big power broker but it can be very very accurate at distances farther than you have probably ever imagined especially with Hornady's 105 gr A-Max bullet under a max load of powder in a gun with a slow twist rate than factorys generally use.

exhibit A...






There are several videos on this guys channel, I chose this one due to time constraints, plus I own a Custom Savage 243 and a couple of Custom Rem 700 mags that are quite the tack drivers way out there when I do my part.

Now dont get me wrong on this....I wouldnt shoot at a deer beyond about 300-400 yards max. Hitting it is one thing putting it down humanely is a whole 'nother conversation and debate. I have a obligation to quickly and humanely kill a game animal, a bad guy I just have to take them out of the fight, whether they lay there for several minutes and bleed out and suffer is irrelevant.


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