# Cyber attack?



## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

This is something I have wondered about for a while. First the Colonel brought up his fiction book then Denton posted the think tank article. This has got me to wondering even more. The think tank article basically stated we are on new ground.

We all know hacking is sport for some people. Some countries scam the internet for fun and profit. This kind of makes me wonder if Nigeria and other small nations aren't following in the footsteps of China and Russia. We know China and Russia have been hacking our governmental systems for years. This has been talked about some but mostly ignored by the MSM.

On China And Russia Hacking Into US, "No Hard Feelings" - Forbes

US claims Chinese military is on new cyber offensive against America ? RT USA

Who's to say either Russia, or more than likely, China haven't gotten deeper into our economy than most people know? I mean what major corporation is going to admit they've been hacked and info stolen by another govt. Look how long it took Target to release the information on being hacked. I think the only reason they let it be known is because they were forced to.

Why couldn't terrorist organizations also employ hackers? They could pay for themselves first of all, provide financing for other operations and eventually trash our economy.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

well terrorist organizations can (and most likely have attempted and succeeded) but now financial institution in there right mind will admit lost funds to hackers (it will close their business) rumor has it, some employ hackers that were successful (once they find out who it is) to improve security 

you know the USA is dependent on oil?? and what it would mean of oil is lost

well China is dependent on the USD for international trade (China accepts USD and now AUD only) so China collapses the USD it's like cutting us off from oil

Russia, i don't know much about Russian international politics out side blaming the USA for the fall of the USSR?? so revenge maybe

this will become the new cold war... and like the space race the USA is behind the 8 ball, it will take a huge kick in the nuts for it to catch up 

my rambling for the day


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

inceptor said:


> This is something I have wondered about for a while. First the Colonel brought up his fiction book then Denton posted the think tank article. This has got me to wondering even more. The think tank article basically stated we are on new ground.
> 
> We all know hacking is sport for some people. Some countries scam the internet for fun and profit. This kind of makes me wonder if Nigeria and other small nations aren't following in the footsteps of China and Russia. We know China and Russia have been hacking our governmental systems for years. This has been talked about some but mostly ignored by the MSM.
> 
> ...


I agree, I can't help but feel that foreign governments have already infiltrated our computer public document storage facilities. It would explain Obummer's being American and not Kenyan.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

My reasoning for Russia is revenge and becoming the lone super power. The same can be said for China. Either way if we get taken down, either could step in and take over. The could "restore" the dollar but have the ultimate control over it.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The recent attacks on retail stores were conducted by Russian hackers. Makes one think about going back to using just cash, but I get no rebate points with cash. :lol:

Seriously, I think Russia is the bigger issue, but I think China would be the one to hit our military through cyber warfare, first. All this assuming it isn't choreographed with my usual boogeymen, the globals.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

More than 75% of all successful "hacks" rely on pretty simple and widely available technology. That was not always the case, but it is today. Today, most successful computer security breaches come through social engineering. That is, the attacker finding some low level employee that just wants to help one of their "co-workers" and inadvertently gives an impostor enough information to circumvent security measures.

If we are talking about U.S. government computers, the problem is exacerbated by the fact that most government computers "trust" other government computers. In other words, some attacker gains access to an admin assistant's computer at the dept of Housing and Urban Development and uses that to gain access to a server at the EPA. From the EPA server they can then access servers within the Department of Energy. (The Department of Energy is who is responsible for manufacturing all of our nuclear triggers. - I.E. the plutonium that goes boom when a nuclear bomb is detonated.)

In my experience, the U.S. government does a moderately good job of hardening their systems from direct attack from the outside world. But they do a horrible job of protecting them from other government systems.

This is how guys like Snowden and the *** Private Manning got access to SO much data. Do you honestly believe there is not somebody on Russia's payroll that is doing exactly the same thing now but just releasing it to the Russians rather than Wikileaks?


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Inor said:


> More than 75% of all successful "hacks" rely on pretty simple and widely available technology.
> 
> If we are talking about U.S. government computers, the problem is exacerbated by the fact that most government computers "trust" other government computers.
> 
> ...


But what I want to know is how much damage can they do to this country if they so decided? Espionage is one thing but an outright attack is something else. It used to be that one had to be concerned about a nuclear attack or possibly an invasion. Either way was a remote possibility here. A cyber attack is something different. This can be done with no real threat to the people doing it. This country could be taken out with just a keyboard, it seems to me. Am I wrong?


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

While watching local news I came across this story this morning.

Cyber security experts: Security breaches will likely worsen - Dallas News | myFOXdfw.com


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

inceptor said:


> But what I want to know is how much damage can they do to this country if they so decided? Espionage is one thing but an outright attack is something else. It used to be that one had to be concerned about a nuclear attack or possibly an invasion. Either way was a remote possibility here. A cyber attack is something different. This can be done with no real threat to the people doing it. This country could be taken out with just a keyboard, it seems to me. Am I wrong?


Theoretically, it is possible that they could shut us down completely. Personally, I think that is far more work for them than it would be worth. A FAR easier and almost as damaging exploit would be to attack our financial systems.

I am now getting a bit conspiratorial, but believe there have been two dry runs on that already. Once in 2008 just before the crash, there was a huge run on the dollar. The Fed actually had to close the discount window because they had burned almost a trillion dollars in just over an hour. The second time was the "Flash Crash" on May 6, 2010. Both events were finally blamed on "technical glitches". Please use your own judgement, but I do not accept the "expert explanation".


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Inor said:


> Theoretically, it is possible that they could shut us down completely. Personally, I think that is far more work for them than it would be worth. A FAR easier and almost as damaging exploit would be to attack our financial systems.
> 
> I am now getting a bit conspiratorial, but believe there have been two dry runs on that already. Once in 2008 just before the crash, there was a huge run on the dollar. The Fed actually had to close the discount window because they had burned almost a trillion dollars in just over an hour. The second time was the "Flash Crash" on May 6, 2010. Both events were finally blamed on "technical glitches". Please use your own judgement, but I do not accept the "expert explanation".


Just wanted to bump this reply, in case someone missed it.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Inor said:


> Theoretically, it is possible that they could shut us down completely. Personally, I think that is far more work for them than it would be worth. A FAR easier and almost as damaging exploit would be to attack our financial systems.
> 
> I am now getting a bit conspiratorial, but believe there have been two dry runs on that already. Once in 2008 just before the crash, there was a huge run on the dollar. The Fed actually had to close the discount window because they had burned almost a trillion dollars in just over an hour. The second time was the "Flash Crash" on May 6, 2010. Both events were finally blamed on "technical glitches". Please use your own judgement, but I do not accept the "expert explanation".


I do believe you could be right. There is a lot they don't tell us because we don't have the need to know. REALLY?

If they (whoever) did crash the financial system, we would experience a civil war of sorts. Once the many find out that their freebies won't be coming, they will riot. During the great depression many committed suicide, I could see that happening too.

We would definitely be ripe for a take over by someone. That would be my biggest fear. What type of regime would it be?

Colonel, opinions?


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Happy to see you guys are talking and I would not dismiss too quickly any ideas that may feel like a conspiracy theory. 

If you went around on September 10th, 2001 predicting Al Qaida had the means to attack NYC and Washington DC and take thousands of lives, you would have been dismissed as way over the top. The next day you would have seemed prescient. And....it may go like this in the cyber world too I am afraid.

Having worked with the intelligence community during my career, I am pretty confident they are exploring the exact same ideas Denton has suggested. This rarely gets into the public press because it could compromise what is called "sources and methods" by the intelligence types -- meaning where are they getting their information?

Here is my worry. There is a phenomenon called "Advanced Persistent Threat" where hackers leave behind malware which is malicious computer code that can be activated on a given date and start doing damage. With thousands and thousands of computer systems and networks that have millions and millions of lines of code, it is easy to hide and hard to find. What haven't we found yet? Where is it? In what systems? When is going to be triggered?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rebroome said:


> Happy to see you guys are talking and I would not dismiss too quickly any ideas that may feel like a conspiracy theory.
> 
> If you went around on September 10th, 2001 predicting Al Qaida had the means to attack NYC and Washington DC and take thousands of lives, you would have been dismissed as way over the top. The next day you would have seemed prescient. And....it may go like this in the cyber world too I am afraid.
> 
> ...


Definitely. It would be beyond naive to to believe these mines are not there, and are not used as leverage to force "proper actions," or inactions.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Denton said:


> Definitely. It would be beyond naive to to believe these mines are not there, and *are not used as leverage to force "proper actions," or inactions*.


Hadn't considered that one.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Hadn't considered that one.


An example of this is the Jihad threat in this country. For many, many years, it has been known that the Quds Force, along with other entities, have had cells inside our borders, and that they will conduct operations against us if we step too far over the line. Imagine if Bush, for example, had dealt with Iran in a forceful manner?


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Do a simple threat assessment. What is to be gained?

Russia exports a good deal of oil does it not? Damaging the US market place and cutting oil usage would damage their bottom line.

China sure it exports a lot to us, but they also need food badly and can't easily produce what they need. What happens when the world population creates a food shortage for the billions of Chinese?

Radical Islam is merely stupid for they took on the WTC to get our economy and failed. Will they get smart? Hope not



inceptor said:


> But what I want to know is how much damage can they do to this country if they so decided? Espionage is one thing but an outright attack is something else. It used to be that one had to be concerned about a nuclear attack or possibly an invasion. Either way was a remote possibility here. A cyber attack is something different. This can be done with no real threat to the people doing it. This country could be taken out with just a keyboard, it seems to me. Am I wrong?


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

This all goes deeper than what's normally in the public view. The Chinese have a unit of the People's Liberation Army on the outskirts of Shanghai, PLA Unit 61398, that is the origin of "...an overwhelming percentage of attacks on American corporations, organizations, and government agencies..." This is from the February 19, 2013 issue of the NEW YORK TIMES.

Now here is what is really going to seem conspiratorial. I bet they read threads like these to see what we are saying. Search and retrieval software to go read masses of information on the internet exists (Google) so why not use it to see who is waking up about this threat? If I were a war planner, I would.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Ripon said:


> Do a simple threat assessment. What is to be gained?
> 
> Russia exports a good deal of oil does it not? Damaging the US market place and cutting oil usage would damage their bottom line.
> 
> China sure it exports a lot to us, but they also need food badly and can't easily produce what they need. What happens when the world population creates a food shortage for the billions of Chinese?


So are you saying that crashing the economy and seizing control would shut down their operations?

If Russia did this, we would no longer need oil? For Russia I believe they would do it for 2 reasons. 1st is revenge. 2nd if they controlled the US, they would be by far the largest superpower.

If it was China, wouldn't they have easy access to farming and food supplies? And wouldn't they have an even larger market for products from there? The Chinese could then control what was imported. If they did take control China would become the lone superpower.

Either would control our economy. That would be a boon to either of theirs. Either could/would become the lone superpower.



Ripon said:


> Radical Islam is merely stupid for they took on the WTC to get our economy and failed. Will they get smart? Hope not


I really think Russia, China or possibly both are holding them in check. Both supply money and weapons. Russia does quite a bit and has made many allies in this region, including Iran.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Islam in America is an interesting angle. We became involved with it when we agreed to protect the house of Saud from external threats if they would be our oil reserve and use only dollars in oil commerce. This, the birth of the petro-dollar. The Sauds also have had unfettered access to every administration since, and has steered our dealings with Muslim nations and entities in ways that haven't been beneficial to the country. Consider, also, that after 9/11, the religion of pieces became a protected system, constantly referred to as the religion of peace, its adherents have been one of the preferred legal immigrant groups since, and those immigrants have taken over large parts of large cities while intimidating non-Muslims and setting up sections where they run things according to their system, waiting for the day they can upset our way of governance. This, all while the government ignores the plight of those Christians suffering at the hands of the governments from which the Muslim immigrants came. 

I find this to be an interesting piece of the puzzle, and I find it to be illuminating, considering our leaders seem to be hell-bent on destroying our nation.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

This is something to consider when thinking about China and its plans....

China expected to announce it has more than doubled gold reserve, expert says | Shanghai Daily

While the Chinese are also making great inroads with the renminbi and leading other nations to move away from the dollar, it is buying a lot of America, while holding a lot of our debt. That debt, I imagine, is to be used as a weapon.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Another interesting factoid regarding Chinese acquisitions in America:
Chinese acquisitions of U.S. companies - CNNMoney


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

If you want to understand how the Chinese view and execute war you need to read Sun Tzu's The Art of War which is required reading for their military. Our military leaders also read it now.

For the Chinese, masses of troops engaged in a land battle firing at each other using kinetic energy weapons, is the least desirable strategy. Deception, surprise, and any means to disrupt us is what they see as a better tactic. They actively look to exploit our weaknesses as a country. Cyber is only one of many avenues of attack they are developing. They have patience and will wait for their best advantage, then will seize the opportunity, at some point, to dominate us.

And if we don't get our act together...the question is, not if, but when they will do it.

Sun Tzu - Wikiquote


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

rebroome said:


> Here is my worry. There is a phenomenon called "Advanced Persistent Threat" where hackers leave behind malware which is malicious computer code that can be activated on a given date and start doing damage. With thousands and thousands of computer systems and networks that have millions and millions of lines of code, it is easy to hide and hard to find. What haven't we found yet? Where is it? In what systems? When is going to be triggered?


You are probably right to worry. But... These types of attacks are also the easiest to detect and disable. Malware/viruses/worms are just software applications like any other. They do not just get executed on their own. They have to be started by someone or something. Typically, that means installing the malware on a system and either renaming it to some valid application so a user unknowingly starts it when they are trying to start a valid application or installing it and hiding an execute instruction in the system scheduler or hiding an execute instruction in the Master Boot Record of the system. In any case, it is really easy to detect the offending code if the systems administrator simply takes the time to look for it. Unfortunately, most systems admins do not bother to look.

The other very common way to way to insert malicious code into a system is for an application to accept data entry from a user and then the application uses that data to dynamically build an executable statement. That technique is called an "Injection Attack". It is extremely common, but it is also extremely easy to prevent. Application developers simply need to review their code to make sure they qualify all data entered by a user before they try to do anything with it and NEVER EVER execute something that was directly touched by a user.

The technical aspects of computer security are really not that difficult to put in place. However, the human component of it is nearly impossible to control 100% of the time. As I think back on all of the successful exploits that have made the news in the last 15 years or so, other than denial of service attacks (which are a completely different can of worms), I cannot think of a single one since the Microsoft IIS buffer overrun attack back in 1998, that was not precipitated by a human being not doing their job to protect the systems they were working on.

Here is a pretty decent 50,000 foot overview of what I am talking about:

Avoiding Social Engineering and Phishing Attacks | US-CERT

So now the question remains, do you trust all of our systems administrators, software developers and end users to know and understand the implications of software security and to do their damn jobs 100% of the time?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The majority of banks were shut down about two years ago by a simple bot that logged on to the banks website over and over until the sites were simply over-loaded with traffic. Users could get in and the employees couldn't conduct transactions. They had to shut down the servers to get rid of the problem The attack lasted only 6 hours but it took the banks over 24 hours to get back up and running. The same thing could happen to our electrical grid, fuel management system or any other nation wide system. 
It could also be cause by panic - if enough people decided to log on to any site it would overwhelm the server.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

I feel our military is on top of this and will not only protect our Defense and Intelligence systems, but are ready to punch right back at an attacker if they can find them. This, in my view, helps keeps our adversaries at bay. The real worry are terrorists who will attack, then slip-slide away so you can't find them.

I am less confident our civil governments and commercial industries are as well prepared to defend themselves. Just look at the recent hacking on Target, where 110 million accounts were compromised. This should be a warning to us all of a lack of preparedness in the commercial sector. Are they being held accountable, or are we just going to crash and burn over and over?

As far as the civil agencies in our federal government go, Obama Care was rolled out from Health and Humans Services last October for millions in the US to use to sign up for their healthcare, and requiring them to provided detailed personal and financial information -- with NO security. (This is from Congressional testimony.) Huh??? NO security?

Which begs the question -- What the hell were they thinking?


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

Thinking and government? Pure fiction.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Yeah. LOL.:lol:


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

I am a big Tom Clancy fan. The new Jack Ryan movie is out so the wife and I went this afternoon. This is the prequel to the previous movies. The only thing work is the timeline. It's a prequel set for now.

The reason I bring this up here and now is the plot. Russia is working to take the US down. How? A financial collapse. Why? Revenge. Added to that it would seriously hurt China.

Wait.................. didn't I mention that earlier?

BTW, this is a really good action-adventure movie.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Obamacare is an economic travesty, brought to you by an Obama Administration, which has lined the pockets of the insurance companies (faithful campaign contributors that they are) at the expense of hard working middle Americans. But... who are also *FORCED* to use a massively screwed up web site that is a well documented and well acknowledged *SECURITY DISASTER* waiting to happen.

World's greatest hacker calls Healthcare.gov security 'shameful' | Fox News

_"Just sign up here for Obamacare and give away your personal information to any hacker or criminal who wants it, or face a penalty from the IRS. And....good luck with identity theft"_

Where is the outrage? Are we so docile and beaten down that we just have another beer and see what's on TV tonight?


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

rebroome - There is some "outrage" as these disasters are being reported in the media. But what would you have a person do? I can (do) call/email/text my congress people until my fingers fall off. I can let clueless people I run across know my opinion. I can hope that enough people get a clue in the near future. I can pray and prep. What can a person do?


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## Silverback (Jan 20, 2014)

Cyberattacks are kinda funny, I was talking to a marine buddy of mine as I worked on his machine three weeks ago and mentioned this article.
Russian attack submarine slipped past US Navy and patrolled Gulf of Mexico for weeks undetected | Mail Online

He asked me what I thought we should do in response. In reality I would never want my enemies to know my true capabilities. If we (USA) knew this sub was in the gulf and tracking it, I would want Russia to think we were blind to it. So when it came down to the point it actually mattered we could handle the situation with force. If we did not know... we better fix that situation a hurry. Sometimes not flexing your strength and sitting in silence is better than pounding your chest making others aware of exactly how superior you are.

Let me set a cyber attack example.

Iran?U.S. RQ-170 incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a funny timeline one, Using a simple GPS hack the cyber war division of IRAN landing and captured one of our surveillance drones. At first we denied it. Then Iran decrypted its computers and showed a video of it in flight, we then said it crashed. So they put it on display with a further decoded video of its landing in an Iran Air Base. So yea, they hacked our top of the line, surveillance drone. Now we know they can and we are fixing the hole. (Thanks obama for kindly asking them to return it-which they obviously did not)

Imagine if we did not know they were capable of this and we sent in strike drones. What if the GPS target was hacked and the drone sent its ordinance into our base, or our allies base instead. Maybe they should have played this card closer to their chest.

I should state that most military aircraft run off INS (Inertial Navigation System) to prevent this type of hack but hey, this drone did not.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

MrsInor said:


> rebroome - There is some "outrage" as these disasters are being reported in the media. But what would you have a person do? I can (do) call/email/text my congress people until my fingers fall off. I can let clueless people I run across know my opinion. I can hope that enough people get a clue in the near future. I can pray and prep. What can a person do?


I have to tell you I have same feeling of helplessness, and maybe it's the 27 years in the military in me, but I never am willing to give up, even when I feel this way. As I read the other threads on this board, I see the same deep seated anger at the incompetence, unfairness and injustice we see daily. There has to be a way for the little guy to stand up and win.

If you trace it, at least one catalyst for the whole Tea Party movement seemed to be triggered when a CNBC analyst, Rick Santelli, went "postal" on the air over the outrageous decisions by our government. There was enough silent outrage in the country who witnessed that event (I did) that the whole movement seemed to snowball after that. My worry is that if we don't shake up the system right now, over time things will completely unravel and we will never find our way out of this mess.

So....it's an election year this year. During the primaries when the political party you support is selecting their candidates, you get tough and intractable. I would simply tell any elected official who is running again for any elected position that, nothing personal, but I am going to vote against you in the primary, and encourage everyone I know to do the same. Why? Because you are an incumbent which makes you part of the problem. Your opponent can't do any worse and maybe will do better then you. If you don't have an opponent in the primary, we will find one.

Send letters to the editor. Go to campaign rallies and town halls and get vocal. Take a lesson from the 60s and carry a sign and protest. Do what you can to get the message out.

*NO INCUMBENTS, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE. NONE OF OUR VOTES. NONE OF OUR MONEY. WE WANT YOUR OPPONENT TO BE OUR CANDIDATE. *

Scare the living shit out of these people that you are dead serious.

In other words, and to quote the writer Paddy Chayefsky from the movie _Network_, *"I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"*


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

That does no good if the new boss is the same as the old boss, to also steal a line.

If you buy into the same old line, read by a new face, you do not change the underlying problem. If you stick to your guns and vote for Constitution Party or Libertarian Party, the entire machine will insure you are wasting your time.

Smashing your head against the wall is activity, but it is fruitless.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

_*"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."*
_
*― Theodore Roosevelt*

Either you get into the arena and try to fix things or you just accept things as they are.

I would choose to get into the arena and try.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rebroome said:


> _*"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."*
> _
> *― Theodore Roosevelt*
> 
> ...


Yeah, sounds great, but what arena, and on what team? The arena controlled by corrupt refs, and on a team that is owned by the same entity that owns the other team?

"*Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it*." -- Woodrow Wilson, from his book The New Freedom (1913)

I'll go along with Teddy Roosevelt, too....

"*Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing NO allegiance and acknowledging NO responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul this unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of today*." -- President Theodore Roosevelt, 1906

We are way down the road from when these men said these things, and the control of the government, the media, the Establishment parties and the mindless entertainment industry is even more resolute than those early leaders could have imagined, but could have expected.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Russia hacked hundreds of Western, Asian companies: security firm | Reuters


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

So what's one to do? Well, I would think be prepared. I think most people here are prepared to survive if the _______________ were to collapse. 
I know the government is prepared to take care of itself, so I'm not going to worry about it. I will concentrate on taking care of myself. I don't need electricity, gas, the internet, stores, credit cards, or ___________ to live. The only disruption an enemy will cause is to the modernists.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Things in Washington won't get fixed until things in ourselves get fixed.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

One thing to remember is hacking goes in both directions. What happened to Iran's centrifuges? How did Al Qaeda's propaganda web site become infested with gay porn? Ok that was probably just Osama and Al Zawierci getting kinky.


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