# Debatiing the benefits and morality of looting.



## littleblackdevil (Jun 29, 2013)

Something that I have been debating myself that I would like to hear your thoughts on was on looting. The morality I don't have a huge problem with. If the disaster event is serious enough there will be a lot of things done by good people in the name of survival that would be considered unlawful under normal circumstances. So having said that raiding a store that is no longer being operated doesn't seem like a huge deal. I feel that as a prepper my mentality has been that I will gather enough supplies to ride out the initial storm and emerge safe on the other side to pick through the rubble. In the first few days your home depots, walmarts, cabelas, etc will be dangerous places as the panic takes over. 

My question is whether its worth it or not to hit up your smaller medical supply, wilderness outfitter or whatever to try to fill any weaknesses in your stockpiles while they are still available? From places that might not be the first place everybody else thinks of.

Might be a stupid question I don't know. But I have been compiling a list of smaller places in my city that might come in handy.

thoughts?


----------



## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

If you want to go down in history as being a thief, . . . have at it. 

Society is based upon morality, ethics, and honesty, . . . none of which I fully noticed in your post.

Do you want to see society and civilization return? IF it does, . . . it will only return to those who are civilized, . . . and looting thugs and thieves are just that, . . . buncha thugs.

May God bless,
Dwight


----------



## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

I figure that in my liberal neighborhood I will be busy enough going through abandoned homes. After the first few days I intend to hunker down and remain as inconspicuous as possible.


----------



## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

MrsInor said:


> I figure that in my liberal neighborhood I will be busy enough going through abandoned homes. After the first few days I intend to hunker down and remain as inconspicuous as possible.


Same here. There are already empty houses around me. I figure there's nothing there food wise. But I will probably upgrade my kitchen or bathroom 

Only if civilization has no hope of returning, the houses truly are abandoned, and there is no hope of them returning. I'd have to be the ONLY survivor or me to do that. I would never loot for personal gain or profit, or steal from others. I'm speaking in a situation where I am truly the last man standing


----------



## littleblackdevil (Jun 29, 2013)

yeah I feel like stealing from a company in a societal collapse is different. I feel like the stuff shouldn't go to waste. Don't get me wrong. I'm not some kleptomaniac in waiting. I just think its an interesting thing to debate or consider.


----------



## littleblackdevil (Jun 29, 2013)

dwight55 said:


> If you want to go down in history as being a thief, . . . have at it.
> 
> Society is based upon morality, ethics, and honesty, . . . none of which I fully noticed in your post.
> 
> ...


I noticed a whole lot of judgment in your post. Keep up the good work.


----------



## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

This used to be a liberal neighborhood but that is changing. There are still a fair amount here but the tide is changing. I will help my neighbors and protect this neighborhood if possible. I figure we stand a better chance that way. If not, well I will do what I need to for my family. I'm not into looting but if they run off or get killed of, (abandoned either way) whatever is left is fair game.


----------



## NotableDeath (Mar 21, 2013)

Will looting be my primary goal ? Hell no, im going to do what i can off of what i got. But don't mistake, i will do what i absolutely have to to survive. I may not be proud of what I have to do, or even if i will be able to. Will be interesting to see how the dice roll.


----------



## littleblackdevil (Jun 29, 2013)

inceptor said:


> This used to be a liberal neighborhood but that is changing. There are still a fair amount here but the tide is changing. I will help my neighbors and protect this neighborhood if possible. I figure we stand a better chance that way. If not, well I will do what I need to for my family. I'm not into looting but if they run off or get killed of, (abandoned either way) whatever is left is fair game.


I totally agree. Uniting with neighbors is a great way to pool skills.


----------



## littleblackdevil (Jun 29, 2013)

I guess how confident you are in what you have stored away will also have an impact on whether or not your out scrambling. If the shit hits the fan tomorrow I would have no choice.


----------



## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

littleblackdevil said:


> yeah I feel like stealing from a company in a societal collapse is different. I feel like the stuff shouldn't go to waste. Don't get me wrong. I'm not some kleptomaniac in waiting. I just think its an interesting thing to debate or consider.


There is a hole in your logic. Companies are not some disconnected entity that has a life of its own. Companies are owned by PEOPLE. Mrs Inor and I own a company. If you steal from our company, you are stealing from us personally; and we will shoot you without a second thought or any remorse.


----------



## pakrat (Nov 18, 2012)

You'll need to be damn sure that the home you're entering is empty and the OWNERS have truly abandoned their goods. I may take a low profile&#8230; keep the lights out, no smoke from the chimney and limit my outside activity to avoid drawing attention. If you come through my front door looking to take whatever you can find, your identity will instantly change from harmless opportunist to thief and intruder&#8230; spelled d-e-a-d. Behave like and animal&#8230; die like one. It's that simple. We all make choices.


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Obviously I can only guess at how long a business of any particular type will remain un-looted. What makes you think that a store owner won't be waiting for someone like you to come to his business to loot and be ready to stop you permanently. Or do you plan on killing or maiming him if he resists? Looting or buying from a store whether or not it is operating or not is a mute question because unless you're in the first wave of looters, you won't get much and you might be robbed in the parking lot or shot dead. Even if you paid for the merchandise. When I was a little kid, I remember TV news footage of people in a store just after a one day warning was given before a hurricane hit the southeast coast. The place was cleaned out in a couple of hours. People weren't really paying attention to what they were sweeping into their shopping carts. It looked as if they just wanted something and then they pushed them out to the parking lot where other people were wrenching the carts away from the weaker people (usually women). And this was all before the hurricane hit. It was exactly like the movies portray. In todays culture, I believe the looters will be after wide screen TVs, and all the stuff that will be worthless in a few days. I also believe that initially LEOs and National Guard units will be out and their orders will be to "shoot looters". If and when the SHTF situation continues and the LEOs and Nat. Guard units decide to forego protecting the general public because they realize they need to protect their own families, the zombies will come out and try to steal food, water and the like from anyone who has it. They will go from house to house looking for whatever will help their survival. While I hope to be able to fool looters into thinking my place has already been looted and bypass my house and my neighbors, I will defend my house and if possible my neighbors.


----------



## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

When I was talking about abandoned homes, I meant truly abandoned. But I really don't see that happening early on simply because I have enough on hand to last me quite a while. It probably would be on a scavenger hunt not a food hunt for me anyhow. To repair or build something you may not have all the parts and running to the Home Depot won't be an option then.


----------



## Shorty (Nov 22, 2013)

Hello, new here and might as well begin the hatred quickly. 

When the day comes that we are obviously facing worldwide change, catastrophic loss of life and hurling modern civilization back hundreds of years, my first errand will be to acquire items not readily available for prepping. 

There are many things crucial that will be hard or impossible to acquire. Antibiotics, pain medication, maintenance drugs (asthma, blood pressure, etc), so on. 
While I am not a thief now, where my children dying from infection easily treated with proper meds, yes I would take what I need. Furthermore, when that day comes it will be a matter of survival and not morality of ownership, and denial of hard facts such as those nullifies all prepping if u have nobody alive with u anymore. 
Never would I steal from another man fighting for survival nor harm him for my benefit. Make no mistake that I will take the pharmacy wall out to stockpile the asthma inhaler my daughter requires. Even more adamantly would I end a life to defend those under my care, without question nor hesitation. 

Lighter note, even tho I enjoy many of the apocalypse shows recently there is one thing often not accurate, least my opinion, that they constantly walk by firearms, ammo, etc. I would be unable to run away due to being weighted down with weapons and ammo. Walk by a abandoned Humvee with a loaded 50 cal while carrying a a pea shooter. Just my thoughts tho. 

Sorry if my views are offensive, just try not deceive myself or others of what I would be willing or capable of when the time comes. Furthermore, if the doctor would give me years of meds to stockpile then I would have no reason to leave the lookout perch. 

Hope to learn a lot hear.


----------



## Verteidiger (Nov 16, 2012)

I survived Hurricane Andrew. I remember full well having to deal with looters.

We lived through those first days of lawlessness with a motto.

You loot, we shoot.

The first thing people need to understand is the nighttime will be when you have problems. Thieves are usually sneak thieves. They use darkness to cloak their crimes.

Our neighborhood banded together. One man stayed awake during the day with the women and kids and small pets. The other men and big dogs slept. At night the rested men and big dogs guarded the rest.

I have an assortment of illumination tools in my avatar for a reason.

We never had to shoot anyone. The looters would slink in. We would be waiting.

Without revealing tactics publicly, we would light them up with weapons drawn. They were seriously outnumbered, outgunned, and outsmarted.

They did not dare come back. All they left with was their underwear and their lives.

After the second night law enforcement restored order.

I worked Katrina. The first day we pulled 40 people off rooftops in our airboats.

We were ordered to stop by LEOs because we were being shot at from the housing projects, mistaken for LEOs.

At night, the place was a war zone in the flooded areas.

People have no idea how vile some people can be in an every man for himself situation.

We were escorted by an armed LEO on each vessel after Day One. The black rifle was king.

No food and no water available.

The Government incident commanders decided to allow people to enter shops, restaurants, groceries, and take food and water.

No booze, no electronics, no other items allowed or the looter was subject to arrest.

So people could survive if they were unable to leave...if they could find food and water that was safe.

But looting was rampant - some places did not see LEOs or military for ten days.

At night there was constant bursts of gunfire, screaming, yelling, it was a battle to survive until sunrise. Many people never saw the next sunrise, dying from the creepers that moved in packs.

I could go on, but Katrina is still the model for how NOT to respond to disasters on every level....

So if you want to take food and water only, as long as you don't try to take it from me or mine, fine.

If you want anything else, be prepared for what you are asking for.

Good luck walking barefooted through the road back to wherever you came from, too.

Law and order will be restored. Right and wrong is still understood. You cross the line, and get caught, you will pay the price.


----------



## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

Once all the Little stores are gone and the big stores are gone what is next... the smaller and weaker people around you then the Bigger and stronger people around you ... then nothing at all!! when does it stop does it ever stop...Ill stick to my plan stock up and plan.. and help and make my area stronger and wait for the looters and raiders so we can get some target practice.. Save yourself the trouble start a plan..get everything you need now and then a little extra and become a leader in your community not a follower  those are what will be needed...WHOA!! Now drop and give me 20 ..Muhahaha!!


----------



## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

Welcome to the forum, Shorty!

I think it's easy to take the moral high ground when everyone's bellies are full. The first time little Johnny begs mommy for food though, the game is changed. I hope it never comes to that and that I can be prepared enough, but if the choice is a sick/injured/hungry child or stealing from a store, there's no debating. Would I feel terrible? Absolutely. But I don't think any parent could sit by and let their child die without trying everything they could to save them.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I have heard it said that character is how you act when no one is looking.
I have also heard it said that life is a series of choices, and choices have consequences.

In my belief system ultimately I am going to have to stand before my God for judgement.


----------



## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

littleblackdevil said:


> I guess how confident you are in what you have stored away will also have an impact on whether or not your out scrambling. If the shit hits the fan tomorrow I would have no choice.


Just start today.. Do a little each day..think of something you might need or just watch the forums read up on survival techniques medical, wilderness stuff, education a big part..If its a couple of cans of food a day so be it just store away a little each day it all don't have to be done in one day or a week or even a month.. When i first started like 5 years ago its started with a case of can goods a month.. Then I researched it more and more and kept saving a little more each month and prioritize with food, water, shelter, fire security, in mind whatever order you fill is needed in mind to keep you alive to sustain yourself or to get into a good group that will allow you in and make you part of their community.. Does not all and will not be all done in a month..There is allot of good people here and allot of good information from more experienced preppers then me..Just keep watching and learning like us all and most of all never think its to late to start!!


----------



## wesley762 (Oct 23, 2012)

Just look for the houses with cars in the driveway with Hope and Change sitckers. Anyone with Hunting stickers, Ron Paul sitcker or Zombie responce stickers I would stay away....... just saying


----------



## MikeyPrepper (Nov 29, 2012)

Wow...


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

MikeyPrepper said:


> Wow...


.........................


----------



## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> .........................


I agree

......&#8230;.....&#8230;.&#8230;&#8230;........


----------



## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

wesley762 said:


> Just look for the houses with cars in the driveway with Hope and Change sitckers. Anyone with Hunting stickers, Ron Paul sitcker or Zombie responce stickers I would stay away....... just saying


What about no bumper stickers? I only have a couple stickers on my truck, and they aren't political. Unless you count my union sticker.......


----------



## Infidel (Dec 22, 2012)

In my mind there's a big difference between looting and scavenging for survival. For me looting conjures up images of the LA riots when people were taking big screen TVs and other such non-essential items. Scavenging for survival means taking just what you need to survive, still not my cup of tea but at least understandable even if I don't condone such behavior. To put food in my family's bellies after supplies are exhausted I only need a rifle and the knowledge that's in my head, a lot of the world doesn't have the knowledge or skills to provide for their families without being able to go to a grocery store. These are the people that will be scavenging for survival, I imagine these are also the people that will go door to door asking people for help. Now anyone that tries to take supplies from me and my family will be in for a very rude awakening.

-Infidel


----------



## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

We are preppers so that we don't have to loot. That has been stated already and I think it's the best statement that separates us from them. Stealing is stealing and there is almost always a victim. We don't want our things stolen and that is the same with everyone else. Could there be a time with mass causalities that leaves a wasteland of goodies? Maybe but mostly we have events that are short lived and we will have to live with our decisions.


----------



## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> We are preppers so that we don't have to loot. That has been stated already and I think it's the best statement that separates us from them. Stealing is stealing and there is almost always a victim. We don't want our things stolen and that is the same with everyone else. Could there be a time with mass causalities that leaves a wasteland of goodies? Maybe but mostly we have events that are short lived and we will have to live with our decisions.


Well said.

Like I stated before, the only time I see myself "looting" is if I am last man standing. And I don't see that happening any time soon.

I would do it "I am legend" style


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I think we need to come up with a consensus definition of "looting" vs. "savaging". Here are my definitions. 

To me, "looting" is going into a business, house, or any other place I don't have permission to enter and taking what I want or need. Especially a house where what I take could cause harm in any way to the person it belongs to.

"Scavenging" would be going into buildings that are destroyed (by whatever means) to take I want or need; finding a dead person who is laying out in the open with no one around to claim him or the property; picking up things laying in the street. Bear in mind LEOs might not take kindly to picking up the big screen TV you found lying in the road. First of all "needs" precludes the idea of big screen TVs, and the like. 

I must post script this with the idea that time can and will blur the lines. Two months after the SHTF event occurs, any house or place of business that has been abandoned ought be open to scavenging if it has not been secured in any way, including warning signs. Six months after the event, I might think about trying to scavenge from a house that is intact without any signs of habitation. Even then, I would think not twice but three times about walking into that house. I say this because One of my Bug In plan is to make my house and my neighbors houses appear to have been already looted so as to cause looters to pass by my house. So if someone were to come into my house, well, the coyotes around my house will eat well for the day. 

Any other definitions???? or thoughts?


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

My morals are my own. I do not expect others to believe as I do.
I believe that stealing is the same whether I am stealing from a store or a little old lady who lives upstairs. There is no difference to me.

I am prepared with a years worth of food - longer if I rationed it - I have the tools, equipment and knowledge to live that year and prepare for the following year. I will not be stealing from anyone and no one will steal from me as long as I am alive.

If I have to resort to stealing to survive then I may not make it but when I face my Maker I will be able to say that I lived up to my interpretation of His words.


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

In my mind there is NO difference. We prepare so we don't have to injure others to survive.


----------



## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

wesley762 said:


> Just look for the houses with cars in the driveway with Hope and Change sitckers. Anyone with Hunting stickers, Ron Paul sitcker or Zombie responce stickers I would stay away....... just saying


I'm glad I've got arms on my chair, . . . otherwise I would have laughed so hard I fell out of it and hurt myself.

Thanks for a good laugh, . . . may God bless,
Dwight


----------



## littleblackdevil (Jun 29, 2013)

Inor said:


> There is a hole in your logic. Companies are not some disconnected entity that has a life of its own. Companies are owned by PEOPLE. Mrs Inor and I own a company. If you steal from our company, you are stealing from us personally; and we will shoot you without a second thought or any remorse.


I would expect nothing less.


----------



## littleblackdevil (Jun 29, 2013)

As a caveat I would also like to add that my thoughts were based around an extreme event that caused a long term SHTF scenario. If there was a natural disaster where things are shut down for months, weeks or days. I would certainly not go around breaking down doors taking what I wanted. If I was scavenging and entered a place of business that still had its owners inside protecting their property I would not try and harm them to take their supplies. I would probably try and barter if there was something that I needed. If the place was empty or abandoned I would be obligated to check it out for anything useful. Scavenging is what I meant by looting. The line between them is pretty blurry I guess. 

I feel like some people have misunderstood my character which is probably my fault. I should have been more clear. I'm a good person. I live my life as such. But in the end I would much rather be labeled a thief then let down my family.


----------

