# Gun Free Zones...I hate em!



## SGT E

Hopefully Urban and Rural Survival is the place for this!

Had a Doctors appointment the other day at a BIG University Hospital that shall remain nameless and had just got out of the car in the parking garage with my wife and we headed toward the elevator....I noticed what seemed to be a young Asian Student carrying a pistol case and a short rifle case(short AR type with zipper) adorned with the Velcro patches Glock on the pistol case and Sig on the rifle case...As we followed it seemed as if we would be in the same elevator together but it was out of order we all took the stairs....I slowed the wife until he was a flight or so down and he took the same door we needed to take...I stopped and peered through the window until I saw him pass a Uniformed Security guard and get into another elevator. He passed no less than 2 dozen people and even my wife that shoots regularly never noticed the cases until I brung it to her attention after over 100 yards following this guy. Anyone else ever had something like this happen? It's a definite gun free zone but even when your flashing a neon sign with the words Glock and Sig....Nobody notices? I respected their wishes and left my conceal carry at home but it sure makes me nervous not to have it with me!


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## Gunn

I am not able to go to *Gunn* free zones. So, I would not know.:tango_face_wink:


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## Sasquatch

Never had an experience like the OP but I did need to get a new phone so I headed to Verizon. As I walked in I noticed on the window a sign that said "no concealed weapons". Had never seen that before, especially in CA as not many people have a CCW permit. Went to another Verizon the next day and they had no sign like that. Must be the owners decision. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Camel923

What’s wrong with a zone that gives free guns? If they are not enforcing it, carry. I got pinched in a hospital. The guards were upset but I was given a locker and a receipt to keep it on until I left the hospital.


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## SOCOM42

I had to go to the hospital one night after a difficult arrest. I was in civilian cloths.

When I took off my coat the attendant (***) present freaked out and left the room, came back with security.

Guard told me guns were not allowed, I told him i was in no mood for his shit. I was still on duty to boot.

I showed him my Sgt badge, and told him I was not surrendering my weapons and would arrest his ass for interfering with a PO.

They sewed me up and I left with no further incident.

I ignore those few and far between gun free zones, I am not there to commit crimes, 

further, I have no intention of being a shooting gallery target.


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## Back Pack Hack

SOCOM42 said:


> ...............further, I have no intention of being a shooting gallery target.


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## Prepared One

One of my major accounts is the City of Houston. I am in and out of City hall and the Purchasing Depts. on a regular basis. I can't so much as have a pocket knife or a toothpick on me when I enter city premises. City Hall, County buildings, all have metal detectors and guards at the entrances. I hate leaving my weapon in the glove compartment in the truck. It's like being without a watch or my wallet. Just don't feel right and makes me nervous.


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## RedLion

Good situational awareness OP. I never, ever, ever go anywhere without at least one firearm on my person and a rifle in the trunk. The only places that I do not carry is at work, if I enter a public school, most federal property or a court house. Otherwise I am legal to carry anywhere even if posted and I do. When I see my Doctor, I usually just carry my little Taurus 738 .380 in pocket holster with two back up mags. Small enough to have on person even if undergoing an exam.


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## preppermyA

Some states it's just a trespass charge if you get caught and don't leave. Nothing if you do leave.
Of course that doesn't count .gov places.
There are still a few places that are "mostly" free.


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## Jammer Six

We went with the Seahawks to Superbowl XLIX.

I guess next time, I'll just have to follow the 'Hawks to the Superbowl without any of you guys.

Damn...ohwaitareyouKIDDINGme? The SUPERBOWL?

:vs_bananasplit:


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## sideKahr

I won't disarm unless there are magnetometers at the entrance. Otherwise, the owners can rest assured that should I encounter a robber or shooter in their establishment, I will take no action to interfere. My weapon is for self defense. I am not a cop.


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## Back Pack Hack

preppermyA said:


> Some states it's just a trespass charge if you get caught and don't leave._ Nothing if you *do* leave_..............


That's the way it's _supposed _to work. Most places, the law states that you must be informed that you will be trespassed if you do not leave and be given the opportunity to leave.

Sadly, however, most LEOs don't know this (or more likely, conveniently ignore the law) and go right to writing up a trespass notice. Typically, you are not allowed to leave because you're told you're being detained. In that case, it's entrapment.


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## Jammer Six

You are _badly_ confused on what entrapment means.


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## Back Pack Hack

Jammer Six said:


> You are _badly_ confused on what entrapment means.


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## Denton

Jimmy said:


> hi here! I am new


What say you make an introduction post? Ask Traycy to do the same, if you don't mind.


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## The Tourist

When Wisconsin got CCW, the door decals sprung up everywhere. What happened here is what usually happens everywhere. That is, when a CCW statute is new, stores fear "Dodge City." Then some of their regulars quit coming and they realize there was never any trouble to begin with.

I contacted the manager of the cafe' my wife and I patronize, and she told me that their store went with the national corporate policy. That being, all their patrons are welcome. 

They have their own side entrance door and no decals on the entrance off the mall. According to Wisconsin law, we can carry legally within the store. Now there are six or seven stores in our mall that have no decals posted.


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## budgetprepp-n

I must be missing something. I just don't understand how anyone thinks a gun free zone will stop a bad guy from coming on in and shooting. 
Seems like all it really dose is weed out the good guys that obey the law.


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## Back Pack Hack

budgetprepp-n said:


> I must be missing something. I just don't understand how anyone thinks a gun free zone will stop a bad guy from coming on in and shooting.
> ..........


It was just a knee-jerk reaction. Do something, they thought. Anything. We don't care. Just do something. "Gun-free Zones"? Yeah, sure, that sounds great.

If it was that simple, then the speed limit signs on the highways would prevent speeding.


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## The Tourist

Well, it's easy to spot us here. Look for a "Molon Labe" patch on a guy's jacket or a decal on his truck.

If you see a patch that says "I Burn for Bernie" it's probably a liberal, hence unarmed.


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## Jammer Six

Another instructor used to say that if he ever needs to steal a car, he'll look for the gun bumper stickers, because those cars might come with a gun.


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## Coastie dad

Well, JAMMITUPHIS6 is back. His wife must be out and about, having forgot to turn off her computer.

Now we can really be enlightened.


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## StratMaster

The Tourist said:


> When Wisconsin got CCW, the door decals sprung up everywhere. What happened here is what usually happens everywhere. That is, when a CCW statute is new, stores fear "Dodge City." Then some of their regulars quit coming and they realize there was never any trouble to begin with.
> 
> I contacted the manager of the cafe' my wife and I patronize, and she told me that their store went with the national corporate policy. That being, all their patrons are welcome.
> 
> They have their own side entrance door and no decals on the entrance off the mall. According to Wisconsin law, we can carry legally within the store. Now there are six or seven stores in our mall that have no decals posted.


See, I like hearing that. It's OK with me that initially there was a learning curve to walk... and some folks and businesses feared the "Dodge City" scenario. That many of the stickers came down after a time shows that people - at least some - can learn.


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## Ken S LaTrans

SOCOM42 said:


> I had to go to the hospital one night after a difficult arrest. I was in civilian cloths.
> 
> When I took off my coat the attendant (***) present freaked out and left the room, came back with security.
> 
> Guard told me guns were not allowed, I told him i was in no mood for his shit. I was still on duty to boot.
> 
> I showed him my Sgt badge, and told him I was not surrendering my weapons and would arrest his ass for interfering with a PO.
> 
> They sewed me up and I left with no further incident.
> 
> I ignore those few and far between gun free zones, I am not there to commit crimes,
> 
> further, I have no intention of being a shooting gallery target.


My wife is a trauma surgeon. She is also a competitive shooter. She also carries a Glock 43 IWB in her scrubs at work with a spare magazine and a small Spyderco in her lab coat pocket. We actually met when she was digging a nasty bullet fragment out of my left bicep when she was a surgical intern (It was a gift from a tweaker chud when we executed a warrant on his cook house). None of the mall ninjas at her hospital would ever question an officer carrying on or off duty.


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## Back Pack Hack

The Tourist said:


> When Wisconsin got CCW, the door decals sprung up everywhere. What happened here is what usually happens everywhere. That is, when a CCW statute is new, stores fear "Dodge City." Then some of their regulars quit coming and they realize there was never any trouble to begin with.
> 
> I contacted the manager of the cafe' my wife and I patronize, and she told me that their store went with the national corporate policy. That being, all their patrons are welcome.
> 
> They have their own side entrance door and no decals on the entrance off the mall. According to Wisconsin law, we can carry legally within the store. Now there are six or seven stores in our mall that have no decals posted.


When my state went to Shall Issue, there was a part in the law about businesses being allowed to post signs on their doors about not allowing firearms. I get that, and I'm fine with it.

But............ Funny story here.

There's a restaurant I frequent that one of the cooks and I have gone out plinking on occasion. While I was in there one night, he and I were talking about how many rounds we had. He said he had about 7000. I told him I'm probably between 14000 and 15000. As we were talking, the owner walked by. After the cook went back to the kitchen, the owner approached me and asked about how many rounds we had.

I said, "Yeah, Kenny said he had seven thousand and I had twice that. Why?"

She said, "Why do you need that many?"

So I tried to explain it to her. "Well, first, not all guns are the same caliber. This ain't an old west movie where every gun uses the same cartridge. There's 22, 45, 380, 38 special, 223, 556, 7.62 and so on. Now, a gun ain't worth anything unless you got something to put in it, so I need to stock up on all those different calibers. So if Kenny calls me up (or anyone else I go plinking with) and says, 'Hey, let's go to the range today', I have something to shoot. I don't have to stop at the store and pay a gawd-awful high price.... if they have it in stock. I can go shoot, and still have plenty on hand."

She then went on her tirade. "I still don't see why anyone needs thousands of rounds. Nobody needs that many. I don't even know what a round is, but I know you don't need that many."

That floored me. She didn't know what a round is, but was telling me how many I should have.

So........ I reached down, pulled the S&W 642 off my left ankle, dropped the wheel, pulled out a round and set it on the table. "_That_, is a round!"

"Oh!" she said, "You mean a bullet!"

"No, no, no" I replied. "This (pointing to the bullet) is the bullet. THIS (pointing to the whole thing) is a round. It's the bullet, the casing, the propellant AND the primer. THAT is a round."

Then it hit her. She looked at me and said, "Um, I'm not sure I like people bringing guns in here."

I told her, "Well, if you don't, you need to put a sign on your doors. But if you really don't like it, look around. I can tell you right now there's at least 8 or 10 guns in this room right now."

Her jaw dropped, and I continued. "Steve over there carries. So does Kari. Dan and Barb over there carry. Don. Jackie...." I pointed out everyone in the room I know that carries. Maybe not right at the moment, but I know they do carry on a regular basis. "Jesus, even Kenny back in the kitchen carries. You've never seen the 45 on his hip? Lordiorskie, woman. If someone comes in here to rob the place, they're gonna be in a world of hurt. You may not know it, but this is one of the safest places in the city right now."

That was about 6 years ago. To this day, there's been no sign on the door.


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## Ken S LaTrans

I have a hard time with this one, only insofar as I believe the rights of a property owner are just as sacred as the 2nd Amendment. I mean, we can't pick and choose. If I don't want you (_speaking editorially_) to carry a gun on MY property...then guess what...leave it in your car, or go somewhere else. On the other hand...I also believe in the absolute right to immediate and effective self defense, especially if the GUN FREE ZONE isn't going to otherwise guarantee your safety.

What I also know:

If you're gun is _concealed_, even half assed concealed, 99% of the smartphone addicted public will never notice it anyway. I have never been "made" carrying off duty, even in places with NO GUNS signs...of course my badge trumped the sign...but it illustrates the point. NO GUNS only means NO GUNS if you are made carrying. In Arizona, you are violating a policy, not _breaking a law_ by entering a NO GUNS business. That's reality. Be low key and conceal that heater...and you have no problem.

The second reality is that 99% of the officers dispatched to the MAN WITH A GUN call on that rare occasion that someone is actually made carrying a gun WANT you to just _leave_, and not get on a 2A soapbox, or refuse to leave so they MUST cite you for trespassing. That's it. You got caught being naughty, so remove yourself from the premises who essentially don't want your money anyway...and _allow the officer a chance_ to be cool and part on good terms. Spend your dollars in more enlightened places with more common sense and who, at least tacitly, care about your safety.

Even the so-called tacticool doods with all their tacticool dood gear on, walk around with their heads up their asses and their faces buried in their phones while their gun hangs out like a dildo at Disney Land...and only a small percentage of the people around them even notice it. Of course, these are the same doods who _facetwit_ and _instawhine_ about "situational awareness" and how they are "switched on" at Wal Mart.

Cool. _You do you_. In fact, thanks for letting me know you have your Roscoe because if a shit show starts, I want to know which area you have "covered" so I can avoid your amateur hour shenanigans and YouTube training and handle business while you crab walk, and zig zag up and down the aisles. You can give me your "sitrep" after I am done.

I would MUCH rather be assisted by the guy who is low key, and quiet about his gun, and visually "non tacticool". The difference in personality, _based on personal and professional experience_, tells me that generally the low key, quiet guy has his head and his ass wired together and is going to make good decisions in the middle of the shit show.

I am all for citizens carrying, and full reciprocity. I also know that I was not special because of the job I had. I mean, no one knows better than I do that an officer can't be there when you need us unless we get REALLY lucky. Denying a citizen the right to immediate and effective means of self defense flies in the face of everything I believe in. People have been betrayed by any politician who claims otherwise. I think it's reprehensible that Killary Klintoon who has 24/7 armed security has the temerity to tell a single mom that her life and the lives of her children are worth less somehow than hers and that the single mom should be at the mercy of the whims of an attacker. It's more than reprehensible, it's tantamount to _conspiracy to commit murder_ as far as I am concerned.

But I also believe that you have to be smart about it. If you see a NO GUNS sign...decide whether or not you want to give them your money. If you do...then hide that blaster. No one but you needs to know you have it. _SSSHHHHHHHHHHHH!_ It's a secret. Even while serving in the capacity of an officer, if I noticed someone carrying in a NO GUNS establishment...I would do exactly nothing about it. Why? They are violating a policy, not a law, and not to put too fine a point on it, it wasn't my job to be a tattletale for Waffle House and enforce corporate policies and interject myself into the business of John Smith while he's eating his breakfast.

I know this is a long post...but...just conceal them damned roscoes and you won't have to worry about the little hipster shit behind the counter getting all SJW on you and making your day longer. Concealed means concealed.


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## Back Pack Hack

Ken S LaTrans said:


> .............. on that rare occasion that someone is actually made carrying a gun WANT you to just _leave_, and not get on a 2A soapbox, or refuse to leave so they MUST cite you for trespassing.............


Unfortunately, that's a rare occasion in itself.

If you're 'made' by a biz owner who wants you out, you probably won't know it until the Thin Blue Line gang arrives. Instead of just outright asking you to leave at the behest of the owner, you'll more likely be treated like you just blew up the police station. "Got an ID?" will be their first step, the first of many down the road of the assumption you're a hardened criminal. They gotta run you, see if you have warrants, or no-contact orders, or are behind on your child support payments.

ANY attempt at discussing the situation rationally, calmly and like an adult will be met with "That's obstruction" or "Failure to ID" or "Disturbing the Peace". ANYTHING to escalate the situation. Not to enforce any laws, but to meet the quota.

Most trespassing laws specifically state 1. you must be informed of the property owner's request that you leave or face trespassing charges and 2. you must be given the opportunity to leave. But hey, let's skip all that and get right to the heart of the matter. You have a gun, ergo you are evil and must be put in a cage. So straight to getting 'cuffed while the boys in blue "conduct our investigation". You CAN'T leave because you're currently being detained.

At this point, you may decide to invoke your Constitutional rights. This merely exacerbates your already dismal situation. "Oh, now you're gonna clam up? Why? You're not under arrest! You must have something to hide." Of course, you know your 5A applies all the time, not just after you've been Mirandized. But the Blue Isis lies simply continue, much less in your favor now. Maybe you got weed or coke or heroin on you. We all know how hand-in-hand guns and drugs are, don't we? So a search is in order. They merrily pull your wallet out and gleefully rifle through it, looking for anything to hem you up. Gosh, you must have 800 or a thousand bucks in there. NO ONE carries that much cash unless they're a dealer or a pimp. By golly, that's RAS to stuff you into the black-n-white and take you downtown and put you under a light bulb until you crack.

In the end, you'll be released, only sans your firearm, your cell phone and your cash. That's all been confiscated as 'evidence'. Evidence in what, you ask? Well, _maybe_ a crime was committed, and it needs to stay in the evidence locker for 90 days. You were never given a receipt, and you weren't charged with anything. A warrantless search of your phone will occur. But a criminal you must be as everything is 'suspicious'. Funny. "Suspicion" is neither a felony or a misdemeanor. But take it they did, and they'll just let the city/county attorney determine what's next.

But now you're standing on the street with no cash. You're on your own to get back to your car. But you can't call a cab because you don't have your phone. And even if you did, you couldn't pay the fare. And all because you didn't follow their script.


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## Ken S LaTrans

Back Pack Hack said:


> Unfortunately, that's a rare occasion in itself.
> 
> If you're 'made' by a biz owner who wants you out, you probably won't know it until the Thin Blue Line gang arrives. Instead of just outright asking you to leave at the behest of the owner, you'll more likely be treated like you just blew up the police station. "Got an ID?" will be their first step, the first of many down the road of the assumption you're a hardened criminal. They gotta run you, see if you have warrants, or no-contact orders, or are behind on your child support payments.
> 
> ANY attempt at discussing the situation rationally, calmly and like an adult will be met with "That's obstruction" or "Failure to ID" or "Disturbing the Peace". ANYTHING to escalate the situation. Not to enforce any laws, but to meet the quota.
> 
> Most trespassing laws specifically state 1. you must be informed of the property owner's request that you leave or face trespassing charges and 2. you must be given the opportunity to leave. But hey, let's skip all that and get right to the heart of the matter. You have a gun, ergo you are evil and must be put in a cage. So straight to getting 'cuffed while the boys in blue "conduct our investigation". You CAN'T leave because you're currently being detained.
> 
> At this point, you may decide to invoke your Constitutional rights. This merely exacerbates your already dismal situation. "Oh, now you're gonna clam up? Why? You're not under arrest! You must have something to hide." Of course, you know your 5A applies all the time, not just after you've been Mirandized. But the Blue Isis lies simply continue, much less in your favor now. Maybe you got weed or coke or heroin on you. We all know how hand-in-hand guns and drugs are, don't we? So a search is in order. They merrily pull your wallet out and gleefully rifle through it, looking for anything to hem you up. Gosh, you must have 800 or a thousand bucks in there. NO ONE carries that much cash unless they're a dealer or a pimp. By golly, that's RAS to stuff you into the black-n-white and take you downtown and put you under a light bulb until you crack.
> 
> In the end, you'll be released, only sans your firearm, your cell phone and your cash. That's all been confiscated as 'evidence'. Evidence in what, you ask? Well, _maybe_ a crime was committed, and it needs to stay in the evidence locker for 90 days. You were never given a receipt, and you weren't charged with anything. A warrantless search of your phone will occur. But a criminal you must be as everything is 'suspicious'. Funny. "Suspicion" is neither a felony or a misdemeanor. But take it they did, and they'll just let the city/county attorney determine what's next.
> 
> But now you're standing on the street with no cash. You're on your own to get back to your car. But you can't call a cab because you don't have your phone. And even if you did, you couldn't pay the fare. And all because you didn't follow their script.


I probably don't know what I am talking about here because...you know...I was only a cop for 30 years and I only dealt with this a couple of times a year...so...

I have ask a few questions and then answer your assertions:

Number one. Have you, YOU, personally ever "suffered the horrors" of which you speak? I am being serious. Have you ever been "made" carrying and been charged with _obstruction_, _failure to ID_ (which is't a charge here), or _disturbing the peace_, or _criminal trespass_? Or are you repeating anecdotal evidence that you read on the internet or "heard from some dood who knows some dood who has a cousin" or saw on YouTube?

If you have, then...you, yes, YOU, chose it. Here's the reality. Approach determines response. If you are on private property under the ownership, lease, or control of someone else and you are asked to leave...and _refuse_ to leave...you are trespassing. You have in that moment _made the choice_ to engage in criminal behavior. _ You_ chose it. _You_ left the officer no choice, and no ability to exercise discretion in that moment.

If I get a call from dispatch from Happy Monkey Retail Emporium "Man with a gun" and I roll on it (And I have to. I have no choice. Gotta go.) and make the approach and you are immediately verbally combative...then YOU are setting the tone for a negative contact. You are driving the bus and CHOOSING how your day is going to end. When I arrive, and speak with whomever is in legal control of the property and they say "They have a gun. We want them to leave"...in whatever verbiage they choose...then I am now a "messenger by proxy".

In other words, I have been lawfully empowered to tell you to leave (and have the full weight and authority of Arizona Revised Statutes behind me). You are NOT (in Arizona, in some jurisdictions you are already committing some level of offense by ignoring the sign, but here you must refuse to leave) committing a civil infraction, or criminal offense at this time, you are still driving your own bus. You have the power to choose your own destiny.

"Sir, I am Officer LaTrans, and the person in charge has a no guns policy on their property, and they have asked me to ask you to leave the premises".

This is DECISION TIME for you. Not for me. You are deciding to turn right or left. It's all on you. (This is where the whole pesky notion of personal responsibility and adult decision making comes in).

If you simply say "Oh, okay. I didn't see the sign. I will go on about my business"...you still haven't committed any level of offense, have complied with a lawful instruction, and are free to go and walk the earth like Cain in Kung Fu righting wrongs and doing whatever it is you do. Bye. See ya. Nothing else to see here. Have a nice day.

HOWEVER...if YOU _choose not to comply with that lawful instruction_ and remain on the property to get on a soapbox, yell at me, or the person in control of the property...you ARE now _committing an offense_. You are _trespassing_ AND you are _disturbing the peace_, and in many places you are committing an act of _disorderly conduct_. At this moment, I can, on my own discretion, arrest you with no more chances given, no more warnings...none...POOF, you chose it. I don't need _reasonable suspicion_ or an elevation to _probable cause_ to get your ID, disarm you and seize your weapon, search your person, or take you into custody. Wanna know why? I am WITNESSING YOU COMMIT A CRIME (criminal trespass). You chose, in the presence of a police officer, to remain after being lawfully told to leave. You have CHOSEN to commit an offense in the presence of an officer.

That damned personal responsibility thing. Yeah, it's a bitch when you have the choice to either obey a lawful instruction and remain free to go on about your day, or to disobey that lawful instruction and get arrested. It's a bitch because the only dumbass in that situation was YOU because YOU made all the choices that put you into the legal pickle you got yourself into. It's a bigger bitch when the mirror of personal responsibility and bad choices shows you how dumb you were in that moment and you realize "Damn, I could be home right now, but noooooooo I had to show my ass and now I am in the pokey". But of course, it's the cop's fault that YOU decided not to be an adult.

Ultimately that's what it is. It's an epic failure to adult and you got spanked.

Most of these videos on YouTube that show the alleged "evil cop stomping on someone's civil rights" don't show the beginning of the contact, or where the owner of the property has _already told the subject to leave_, and the subject has refused, BEFORE the police are even called. So in that instance, there IS probable cause to immediately get ID, and search because an offense is already being committed and officers are walking into a "crime in progress".

It's all about personal responsibility and the difference between smart and dumb choices. If you think an officer likes to get called into a retard mediation situation you're dead wrong. Ultimately, that's what it is. It is a waster of time and resources, and by extension....taxpayer's money to have an officer leave patrol and come to a private business or property and have to enforce the rights of the property owner because someone is being naughty and _violating the rights_ of said property owner.

Do I think NO GUNS signs are stupid? Yes I do, but in the moment when YOU are choosing to break the law, and I am compelled to act on behalf of the property owner and enforce the law....I have no choice but to do my duty because again...YOU chose to force the action. Your 2A rights are not being infringed upon, because it's not even about the presence of the gun at this point...it is ALL about your refusal to simply leave private property upon lawful order.

But that's an uncomfortable truth isn't it. You try so hard to make it a gun issue, when in fact all it is about...in totem...is a trespassing issue and you chose to make it that.

As for the whole "quota" and "entrapment" BS...that is exactly what it is. There is no "quota" system, there is especially no "quota" for trespassing offenses. Think about how dumb that whole assertion even sounds. It's like saying there's a quota for homicide, or a quota for assault and battery. It doesn't make sense.

And, I have to ask...do you even understand what entrapment is, other than what you may have seen on Law & Order?

Entrapment is:

In criminal law, entrapment is a practice whereby a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit a criminal offence that the person would have otherwise been _unlikely or unwilling_ to commit.

Your choice to refuse to leave the premises after lawful instruction is NOT an enticement to commit a crime. Being detained for a reasonable amount of time in which to conduct a legal interview is not "entrapment" because there is no enticement to commit a crime.

When it comes right down to it...YOU choose the outcome.

Are there some officers who are dicks? Yep. Are there some who would be better plumbers than cops? Yep. Are there some who are downright criminal? Absolutely, and they should suffer the full weight and consequences of their actions. But the reality (that whole uncomfortable truth) is that when there is a negative interaction, it is a direct result of the attitude and actions of the subject who drive it there.


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## Back Pack Hack

Ken S LaTrans said:


> I probably don't know what I am talking about here because...you know...I was only a cop for 30 years and I only dealt with this a couple of times a year...so...
> 
> I have ask a few questions and then answer your assertions:
> 
> Number one. Have you, YOU, personally ever "suffered the horrors" of which you speak? I am being serious. Have you ever been "made" carrying and been charged with _obstruction_, _failure to ID_ (which is't a charge here), or _disturbing the peace_, or _criminal trespass_? Or are you repeating anecdotal evidence that you read on the internet or "heard from some dood who knows some dood who has a cousin" or saw on YouTube?......................._remaining of unsubstantiated gibberish deleted._


To answer your question. Yes. I have been 'made' while carrying. But not a gun. I was carrying, of all horrors, ..................a _camera_. And on a public sidewalk, not inside a business.

And no, all your assertions that your 30 years in law enforcement does not default to mean all my experience is made up from watching YouTube and TV cop shows. You don't get to play that card because it doesn't exist.

I quit reading your demeaning tirade after I reached that point in your post.


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## 1skrewsloose

Off subject, but when will these posts that read like books end?  when I see a whole page of a single post I pass on it. Dribble. jmho. Please be succinct. Thanks.


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## Ken S LaTrans

Back Pack Hack said:


> To answer your question. Yes. I have been 'made' while carrying. But not a gun. I was carrying, of all horrors, ..................a _camera_. And on a public sidewalk, not inside a business.
> 
> And no, all your assertions that your 30 years in law enforcement does not default to mean all my experience is made up from watching YouTube and TV cop shows. You don't get to play that card because it doesn't exist.
> 
> I quit reading your demeaning tirade after I reached that point in your post.


The you have just proved my point. And there was no "demeaning tirade" it was a complete, point by point, answer to your fallacious assertions.

Your failure to read it, then make yet another fallacious assertion is an admission that you don't know what you're talking about.

It's actually funny (in that sad, pitiful way), because your post was emotional and reactionary filled with polemics and unfounded accusations and the "yeah but" and "nuh uh" argument, and of course with added colorful and fantasy situations that don't exist in LE yet you accuse me of a demeaning tirade.

But you _decided_ not to read an accurate answer because it would be uncomfortable for you to _learn_ that you are wrong.

That's right out of the SJW handbook. Good job. Your credibility: 0


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## Ken S LaTrans

1skrewsloose said:


> Off subject, but when will these posts that read like books end?  when I see a whole page of a single post I pass on it. Dribble. jmho. Please be succinct. Thanks.


Should I post something intelligent like "Nuh uh...nanny nanny boo boo"? Or do you want single syllables so you will understand it?

So, no...thanks.


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## The Tourist

Wow, in my area, if you "print" and a business owner or police officer sees it, he can ask you to leave. If you say, "Yes, sir" and walk directly to the exit, it's no crime, no foul.

The problem is if you argue and get rowdy. Then you get arrested and lose your CCW license.


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## Back Pack Hack

Ken S LaTrans said:


> The you have just proved my point. And there was no "demeaning tirade" it was a complete, point by point, answer to your fallacious assertions.
> 
> Your failure to read it, then make yet another fallacious assertion is an admission that you don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> It's actually funny (in that sad, pitiful way), because your post was emotional and reactionary filled with polemics and unfounded accusations and the "yeah but" and "nuh uh" argument, and of course with added colorful and fantasy situations that don't exist in LE yet you accuse me of a demeaning tirade.
> 
> But you _decided_ not to read an accurate answer because it would be uncomfortable for you to _learn_ that you are wrong.
> 
> That's right out of the SJW handbook. Good job. Your credibility: 0


Man, you sure are full of yourself, aren't you?

How can I give you an accurate answer to a post that had very little to do with what I was referring to? But let me explain it to you.

Never mind. You........ are just not worth my time or the forum bandwidth.


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## Ken S LaTrans

Back Pack Hack said:


> Man, you sure are full of yourself, aren't you?
> 
> How can I give you an accurate answer to a post that had very little to do with what I was referring to? But let me explain it to you.
> 
> Never mind. You........ are just not worth my time or the forum bandwidth.


It had EVERYTHING to do with your assertions. It was a direct answer to YOUR post. There was no lack of specificity or equivocation. You CHOSE not to read it, yet decide what it was without doing so. Seriously, now you play the "I'm dunna take my mawbles and go pout" card. Yeah...I can see who's full of himself and not worth wasting time on. Good job kid.


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## hawgrider

The socks are abundant. Which sock stinks the most?

Sock #1 *Bold*

Sock #2









Sock #3


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## Deebo

Ken S LaTrans said:


> I have a hard time with this one, only insofar as I believe the rights of a property owner are just as sacred as the 2nd Amendment. I mean, we can't pick and choose. If I don't want you (_speaking editorially_) to carry a gun on MY property...then guess what...leave it in your car, or go somewhere else. On the other hand...I also believe in the absolute right to immediate and effective self defense, especially if the GUN FREE ZONE isn't going to otherwise guarantee your safety.
> 
> What I also know:
> 
> If you're gun is _concealed_, even half assed concealed, 99% of the smartphone addicted public will never notice it anyway. I have never been "made" carrying off duty, even in places with NO GUNS signs...of course my badge trumped the sign...but it illustrates the point. NO GUNS only means NO GUNS if you are made carrying. In Arizona, you are violating a policy, not _breaking a law_ by entering a NO GUNS business. That's reality. Be low key and conceal that heater...and you have no problem.
> 
> The second reality is that 99% of the officers dispatched to the MAN WITH A GUN call on that rare occasion that someone is actually made carrying a gun WANT you to just _leave_, and not get on a 2A soapbox, or refuse to leave so they MUST cite you for trespassing. That's it. You got caught being naughty, so remove yourself from the premises who essentially don't want your money anyway...and _allow the officer a chance_ to be cool and part on good terms. Spend your dollars in more enlightened places with more common sense and who, at least tacitly, care about your safety.
> 
> Even the so-called tacticool doods with all their tacticool dood gear on, walk around with their heads up their asses and their faces buried in their phones while their gun hangs out like a dildo at Disney Land...and only a small percentage of the people around them even notice it. Of course, these are the same doods who _facetwit_ and _instawhine_ about "situational awareness" and how they are "switched on" at Wal Mart.
> 
> Cool. _You do you_. In fact, thanks for letting me know you have your Roscoe because if a shit show starts, I want to know which area you have "covered" so I can avoid your amateur hour shenanigans and YouTube training and handle business while you crab walk, and zig zag up and down the aisles. You can give me your "sitrep" after I am done.
> 
> I would MUCH rather be assisted by the guy who is low key, and quiet about his gun, and visually "non tacticool". The difference in personality, _based on personal and professional experience_, tells me that generally the low key, quiet guy has his head and his ass wired together and is going to make good decisions in the middle of the shit show.
> 
> I am all for citizens carrying, and full reciprocity. I also know that I was not special because of the job I had. I mean, no one knows better than I do that an officer can't be there when you need us unless we get REALLY lucky. Denying a citizen the right to immediate and effective means of self defense flies in the face of everything I believe in. People have been betrayed by any politician who claims otherwise. I think it's reprehensible that Killary Klintoon who has 24/7 armed security has the temerity to tell a single mom that her life and the lives of her children are worth less somehow than hers and that the single mom should be at the mercy of the whims of an attacker. It's more than reprehensible, it's tantamount to _conspiracy to commit murder_ as far as I am concerned.
> 
> But I also believe that you have to be smart about it. If you see a NO GUNS sign...decide whether or not you want to give them your money. If you do...then hide that blaster. No one but you needs to know you have it. _SSSHHHHHHHHHHHH!_ It's a secret. Even while serving in the capacity of an officer, if I noticed someone carrying in a NO GUNS establishment...I would do exactly nothing about it. Why? They are violating a policy, not a law, and not to put too fine a point on it, it wasn't my job to be a tattletale for Waffle House and enforce corporate policies and interject myself into the business of John Smith while he's eating his breakfast.
> 
> I know this is a long post...but...just conceal them damned roscoes and you won't have to worry about the little hipster shit behind the counter getting all SJW on you and making your day longer. Concealed means concealed.


@
I like you already... 
Donnie


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## dwight55

In Ohio, . . . violation of the CCW sticker can get you in hot doo-doo, . . . and CAN get your CCW yanked.

THEREFORE if the sign is up and visible, . . . if I see it, . . . it's back to the jeep and stash it in a locked box. It protects my right for a future date.

While I hate doing that, . . . it is a "playing the odds" thing whereby I assume I will not be the one assaulted HERE and TODAY.

I do still have my totally and perfectly legal, . . . super sharp, . . . thumb assisted Kershaw, . . . and have never had any problems except in the ER of the local hospital. It goes in a bag there with a receipt in my hand until I get ready to leave, . . . BUT, . . . there is an armed LEO doing overwatch duties while I'm in there.

Yes, . . . I have inadvertently carried places that were plackarded, . . . but if I can get around going there, . . . I don't go back.

Good luck with your decisions, . . . I'm at peace with mine.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Notold63

I call them “kill zones”.


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## Back Pack Hack

Notold63 said:


> I call them "kill zones".


I call 'em "Target-rich zones".


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## Ken S LaTrans

dwight55 said:


> In Ohio, . . . violation of the CCW sticker can get you in hot doo-doo, . . . and CAN get your CCW yanked.
> 
> THEREFORE if the sign is up and visible, . . . if I see it, . . . it's back to the jeep and stash it in a locked box. It protects my right for a future date.
> 
> While I hate doing that, . . . it is a "playing the odds" thing whereby I assume I will not be the one assaulted HERE and TODAY.
> 
> I do still have my totally and perfectly legal, . . . super sharp, . . . thumb assisted Kershaw, . . . and have never had any problems except in the ER of the local hospital. It goes in a bag there with a receipt in my hand until I get ready to leave, . . . BUT, . . . there is an armed LEO doing overwatch duties while I'm in there.
> 
> Yes, . . . I have inadvertently carried places that were plackarded, . . . but if I can get around going there, . . . I don't go back.
> 
> Good luck with your decisions, . . . I'm at peace with mine.
> 
> May God bless,
> Dwight


In Arizona, all the sticker really does (provided it contains the correct verbiage) is reserve the right of the business/property owner (homeowners do NOT have to post a sign) to tell someone they have to leave specifying the NO GUN policy as the reason. BUT...ignoring the sign is not presumptive, so it is not an offense in and of itself. You must be informed, and told to leave, and then _actively refuse_ to do so in order to have committed an offense.

The reality is, most of the signs are up here because of insurance reasons and are not enforced anyway.


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## Michael_Js

Ken S LaTrans said:


> In Arizona, all the sticker really does (provided it contains the correct verbiage) is reserve the right of the business/property owner (homeowners do NOT have to post a sign) to tell someone they have to leave specifying the NO GUN policy as the reason. BUT...ignoring the sign is not presumptive, so it is not an offense in and of itself. You must be informed, and told to leave, and then _actively refuse_ to do so in order to have committed an offense.
> 
> The reality is, most of the signs are up here because of insurance reasons and are not enforced anyway.


Same as in WA state - maybe not commie seattle though. I prefer NOT to give my business to places with those signs - even though I rarely see them. However, if I have to go in, I just go in...concealed means concealed. My safety first - selfish, but, it's my life. The only places I don't carry, because of my wife's wishes, is when we visit her family and the kids are there. No kids, then I carry.

However, we both have lock boxes in our vehicles so I will either lock it up and go in - if asked - or just leave.

My family lives in gun controlled NY and I ain't taking my guns there...

Peace,
Michael J.


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## The Tourist

Jammer Six said:


> Another instructor used to say that if he ever needs to steal a car, he'll look for the gun bumper stickers, because those cars might come with a gun.


...or, if I may interject, the owner might be a driver for the Mafia...

Sometimes you can fold them. Most have to be sawed in half. But sooner or later they all fit inside a 55 gallon drum.


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