# Jeff Cooper, man of contradictions



## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

Jeff always insisted that the handgun be always worn, be swift into action and quick for repeat hits and multiple targets. Yet, he said that if he lived on the Zambezi River in Africa, he'd carry an 8" .44 mag Smith in a shouder rig!  In the land of poachers and "terrorists with AK's, that seems a bit "unsound" in the way of thinking!. 

Jeff insisted that "no standard is fast enough" for the fast draw and repeat hits, yet SOMEHOW, when you are holding a rifle, speed of repeat hits doesnt mean much (ie, a bolt action is ok). hmm, guess you toss down the scoped Scout Rifle when you draw the 1911? 

Jeff scoffed at the M4, but with softpoints, the M4 drives big feral dogs into the ground with chest hits, almost always. Almost always, the 1911 with ball ammo lets them run off, 50 yds or further, same chest hits. 

Jeff also claimed that "you are no more 'armed' because you are carrying a gun than you're a musician just because you own a guitar". Yet, the mere possession of a Scout Rifle turned you from being " a subject into a citizen".  Now, that's not about hunting, that's about resisting tyranny. I'll take a sound=suppressed M4 for fighting Big Bro's thugs, any day. You can have your noisy, short barreled, low power scoped Scout rifle.

Jeff insisted that no aerial shooting be done around IPSC matches, then encouraged trap shooting with the Scout rifle. mmm, high angle shots with the .45 endanger nothing beyond 1/4 mile, low angle shots with 308 ball ammo have a danger area of over 1.5miles. Definitely a contradiction, eh? 

Many thousands of people found Jeff's writings about the 1911, or at least, the .45, to be persuasive, but in 'open carry" AZ, he could never get his wife Janelle to carry more than a .38 snubbie.  "The man of vision gets no respect in the country of his birth".


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## Stick (Sep 29, 2014)

Cooper's "The Complete Book of Modern Handgunning", from the high school library was one of my bibles, along with "Sixguns by Keith" and Ed McGivern's "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" (picture of Ed with two smoking revolvers and twelve busted clay birds in the air). Just about wore those books out studying it all, and then trying to apply it with a pellet pistol, hehehehehehehee. The basics learned from these guys have served me well over the decades. Once I saw the movie, Brando's character in Apocalypse Now reminded me of Cooper, somehow.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

you need to look at the picture of Ed again. it's 5 busted glass balls, not clay pigeons, and it was done with smooth bored guns and birdshot shells. Sorry to bust your bubble, and it's still great shooting. Search for Ernie Linde's COMPLETE BOOK OF TRICK AND FANCY SHOOTING, and Bill Jordan's NO SECONDPLACE WINNER, via your local library's hookup with the Interlibrary Book Loan system.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

also, search for David Petzal (editor) of a book called THE EXPERT's BOOK OF THE SHOOTING SPORTS. It's got Jeff on handguns, and Jack Oconnor on longarms, a couple of other guys on target rifles and clay pigeon competition (IIRC). Jeff's COOPER ON HANDGUNS is excellent, altho he was full of it about low velocity big bores and stopping power.


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## stillacitizen2 (Jan 30, 2015)

Somebody doesn't like the Scout Rifle. :21:


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

What's to like, really? it's not sound suppressed, and it doesn't even have a threaded muzzle or flashhider. Like all bolt actions, it's quite slow for a repeat hit. It's got no .22lr conversion unit, and IIRC, it's has no luminous iron sights. It won't take down for concealment, it's not available as a stripped lower receiver nor as an 80% finished receiver. It doesn't take GI parts, it doesn't fire the GI rifle rd. You can't easily swap the barrels, or the bolts, and there's no upper-receiver group to swap out, either. There's no drop in trigger jobs available for the Scout Rifle, nor is there any readily available night scope or target designator laser for it. It's dark half of the time, after all. People tend to just ignore that fact, until they get shot-at from the darkness.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

I'd much, much rather have a Remington 748 autoloader than a Scout, if my main use for a rifle was to hunt big game, and I certainly aint gonna pay the ridiculous price of an Austrian variant of the Scout. Wow, people are nuts.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

No one is right about everything. Jeff Cooper made a lot of contributions to firearms training. Take what works for you and apply it. If it doesn't make sense or apply to your situation, find advice from another guru. At the end of the day we are responsible for defending ourselves.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

I think that before the kiddies get a chance to speak their mind that they ought to have been where the great ones have been. Your opinion is about as good as a roll of wet toilet paper.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

*rule i: all guns are always loaded
rule ii: never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy 
rule iii: keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target
rule iv: be sure of your target
 
*


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

eferred said:


> What's to like, really? it's not sound suppressed, and it doesn't even have a threaded muzzle or flashhider. Like all bolt actions, it's quite slow for a repeat hit. It's got no .22lr conversion unit, and IIRC, it's has no luminous iron sights. It won't take down for concealment, it's not available as a stripped lower receiver nor as an 80% finished receiver. It doesn't take GI parts, it doesn't fire the GI rifle rd. You can't easily swap the barrels, or the bolts, and there's no upper-receiver group to swap out, either. There's no drop in trigger jobs available for the Scout Rifle, nor is there any readily available night scope or target designator laser for it. It's dark half of the time, after all. People tend to just ignore that fact, until they get shot-at from the darkness.


Melvin, is that you?

Any members here been around forums like this for 10-15-20 years? Remember Gunkid?

I'm waiting for eferred to bring up the fascinating subject of the assault wheelbarrow.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

yeah, well THIS "kiddie" is 60+, has shot in 150+ combat pistol matches, placing in the top 10% at nearly all of them, ccw'd for 20+ years, corresponded with Jeff from 1970 to 1980, helped him set up the IPSC, taken hundreds of animals with ccw guns and loads, taught scores of people how to shoot, fast draw, been a gunsmith for over 20 years, and have forgotten more than you will ever learn about guns and shooting, count on it. 

I also have/had several close friends who were (some are dead now) close associates of Jeff's. Hackathorn, Harries, Cirillo, Nelson, Sparks, etc. They had many great stories of what a bser el Jefe really was.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

for instance. Jeff insisted that it was momentum that mostly made a pistol bullet effective. He also said that a 40 gr .22 pullet, at 2200+ fps, offered 'adequate stopping power, after piercing any practicible armor, by means of hydrostatic shock". He said this in his COOPER ON HANDUNS, in the chapter about the Husquarvana gas op 9mm offering at the time, 1973. Yet he was determined that the 223 not be allowed to compete with 308 on an even footing, even tho the 223 has the same momentum as the .45 and a LOT more velocity than 2200 fps, and a lot more bullet weight than 40 grs, too.  A 223 can still have over 2200 fps left at 400 yds, actually. Jeff knew what would happen if 223 were allowed to compete on an equal basis with 308. the 223 would always win. Spld armory knows it, too. they offered to fund the rifle match at one of the SOF shoots, IF 223's were not allowed!  So much for their faith in their "ultimate rifle", (M1A) eh?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

eferred said:


> yeah, well THIS "kiddie" is 60+, has shot in 150+ combat pistol matches, placing in the top 10% at nearly all of them, ccw'd for 20+ years, corresponded with Jeff from 1970 to 1980, helped him set up the IPSC, taken hundreds of animals with ccw guns and loads, taught scores of people how to shoot, fast draw, been a gunsmith for over 20 years, and have forgotten more than you will ever learn about guns and shooting, count on it.
> 
> I also have/had several close friends who were (some are dead now) close associates of Jeff's. Hackathorn, Harries, Cirillo, Nelson, Sparks, etc. They had many great stories of what a bser el Jefe really was.


Sure.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Whatever you say, John.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

Sure. google for the IPSC charter meeting, at the Columbia Conference 1976. look about a third of the way down the page for my signature, John M. Davis


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Hey, Slippy, Sarge, Camel, RPD, . . . did I miss something????

Now I know I'm not a great reader, . . . but wasn't there a guy named Jeff Cooper, . . . basically world recognized as an expert or at least a serious authority on guns, CCW, etc???

And then again, . . . I must have turned the pages too fast, . . . don't ever recall reading anything from, . . . uhhh, . . . eferred, efurred, efurrey, . . . Google couldn't even find em.

Oh well, . . . maybe I'll get one of Jeff's books out, . . . he'll probably have some glowing reference to the guy, . . . 

May God bless,
Dwight


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I think they were drinkin' buddies. :armata_PDT_12:


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

It seems to me that the rant against Jeff Cooper is full of either misunderstandings or purposeful taking things out of context. To begin with, the Scout Rifle that Cooper proposed had nothing to do with Combat, it was about an all round rifle for use in North America for hunting/survival, and in this case survival meant putting meat in your belly. 

Cooper's suggestion as to what type of pistol he would carry in Africa was for protection against large carnivores and poachers armed with Ak-47's had nothing to do with it, and frankly the whole point is ludicrous. If you are armed with a pistol and there are a bunch of people armed with AK-47's you better RUN. By the way, Cooper was stating what type of pistol he would carry, not that he would ONLY carry a pistol.

Speed of repeat hits...... Cooper was talking about PISTOLS in a Combat situation, not a RIFLE used for hunting game. When using a rifle firing a .308 round to take down game, repeat hits is NOT a priority. Shot placement is. 

A centerfire rifle firing softpoints does a better job killing dogs when they are shot in the chest with it then when they are shot by a pistol shooting hard ball rounds. DUH. I do doubt your claim about the dogs running off when shot in the chest with the .45 though, even when using hardball rounds. I guess it depends on where in the chest you hit. Somehow I doubt if this is what anyone would consider a scientific study. 

Cooper's wife didn't carry 1911 pistol. Gee, that really proves that Cooper didn't know what he was talking about. It couldn't be that because she was a small women with small hands that had trouble with the larger frame of the 1911 could it? 

Frankly IMO this whole post is asinine.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Mr Dwight,

I have no idea who this eferred guy is...



dwight55 said:


> Hey, Slippy, Sarge, Camel, RPD, . . . did I miss something????
> 
> Now I know I'm not a great reader, . . . but wasn't there a guy named Jeff Cooper, . . . basically world recognized as an expert or at least a serious authority on guns, CCW, etc???
> 
> ...


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

Did effered ever read the story about the concept and design purpose of a scout rifle?
Nah, didn't think so.


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## shootbrownelk (Jul 9, 2014)

Jeff Cooper was a man's man. Rough around the edges, outspoken and said things that ruffled a few feathers. He was though honest, sometimes brutally honest. Effered evidently craves some of Cooper's recognition in the shooting sports, but didn't receive any. He sure can't be accused of not patting himself on the back enough! Wow! Sounds like a padded resume for a job at Camp Perry. That's all I got.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Slippy said:


> Mr Dwight,
> 
> I have no idea who this eferred guy is...


Maybe that is what the whole problem is....no one knows who he is, and it is pretty obvious that no one cares. The whole post is about some wanna-be who is pissed off that someone was a whole lot more successful in their life then he is in his.


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## Stick (Sep 29, 2014)

Good responses. All I have to say is, I can count to twelve...OP seems only able to count to five. BTW, glass balls went out with Annie Oakley and Buffalo Bill.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

Have been searching for books, magazine columns, etc, by this efferd guy--- no luck yet---


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## Mercurial1 (Feb 15, 2015)

eferred said:


> What's to like, really? it's not sound suppressed, and it doesn't even have a threaded muzzle or flashhider. Like all bolt actions, it's quite slow for a repeat hit. It's got no .22lr conversion unit, and IIRC, it's has no luminous iron sights. It won't take down for concealment, it's not available as a stripped lower receiver nor as an 80% finished receiver. It doesn't take GI parts, it doesn't fire the GI rifle rd. You can't easily swap the barrels, or the bolts, and there's no upper-receiver group to swap out, either. There's no drop in trigger jobs available for the Scout Rifle, nor is there any readily available night scope or target designator laser for it. It's dark half of the time, after all. People tend to just ignore that fact, until they get shot-at from the darkness.


Have you looked at the Mossberg MVP? While not perfect by any means it addresses some of your concerns here.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

tango said:


> Have been searching for books, magazine columns, etc, by this efferd guy--- no luck yet---


Hint: Google Gunkid, or John Melvin Davis. Both queries will lead to the same place.

He has appeared from time to time on other boards since they released him from The Graybar Hotel.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

Thanks rpd, but I was being a wise azz.
Not that interested.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

If he keeps it up, . . . maybe he oughta get a whistle and go off to band camp.

Uhhh, . . . sorry, . . . BANNED camp.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> If he keeps it up, . . . maybe he oughta get a whistle and go off to band camp.
> 
> Uhhh, . . . sorry, . . . BANNED camp.
> 
> ...


He was put on the bus several hours ago.
:banstick:


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I always enjoyed Jeff's writings in gunsandammo. Enjoyed "To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth". jmo.


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## stillacitizen2 (Jan 30, 2015)

The Scout Rifle now comes with a threaded barrel. I just saw it on TV (Sportsmans Channel), Gun Talk or some darn show....

Personally, I don't care for it. Nothing about it that necessarily gets me excited. As for the Remington 748 "Auto Loader", I've had one. And I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. Even took a loss on it and the 760 that came with it. Still p.o.'d about that trade. Gave up a perfectly good Wilson Combat 870 for the two of them. Live and learn I always say...


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