# Question for MountainGirl



## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

Hello

I was reading your other thread that I guess got hijacked and closed but I have a question.

Early on in the thread you posted a pic of the building of the solar panel mounting system. built with 6 x 6 lumber. I noticed that it looks like the base of these 6 x 6's are deck piers. Are they like the ones in the image below or do they go down below the frost line. If they are the surface type is the structure secured in some way for wind.









Secondly how are the panels attached to the structure?

Thanks

Al


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

@agmccall





















Hi Al - 
Yes, we used deck piers like the one in your post, on the surface and not attached to the ground in any manner. That spot is basically a granite knob, and rather than attaching it to the ground we designed the structure with a very wide base to hold up against the wind...with the hopes that if they were 'blown' they'd scoot backwards a bit, where there's still some level ground. We also laid them back a little more than the 'correct' angle should have been, for more stability, even though it might have given us reduced charging. We've gotten some 70+ gusts and so far it hasn't moved at all. You might be able to tell from that first pic that it drops off pretty fast to the south...and that's where the prevailing winds come from, lol. They hit the side of the mountain and flow up and right over the array. At least that's what I like to think. 

All the lumber was treated, 4x4s for the structure, 2x4s for the bracing, 2x6s for the horizontals that the panels attach to. You can get mounting rails (that fit the panels you buy) and those are mounted horizontally on the 2x6s. It would have been impossible for the structure to be 'level' - so we saved that requirement for the 2x6s. As it was, the 'flat enough' area was also almost not 'wide enough' - with the west side going up the mountain, and the east side dropping off over the edge. That's why that third section of panels is angled a little bit. As it still is - the east pier blocks are kinda just hanging on LOL This spring, I might go build up some rock under that area... even though it probably doesn't need it.

The whole set up is very rugged, and we've had no problems with it other than keeping the snow from building up below the panels after sliding off them. There's only 30" clearance, and it would have been nice to go higher, but hunkering them as much as possible seems to have worked out.

Do you have solar?


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## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> @agmccall
> 
> View attachment 103783
> View attachment 103785
> ...


We have the setup with 2 fork lift batteries. we charge with generator. gave us decent power but can not move them. I am going to have to buy a hoist from harbor freight and lift the individual cells out, then build a wooden battery box. some of the cells have gone bad. I have 12 panels in the garage each about 300 watts and chargers to hook up.

Do you have any pics of how the panels are attached to the structure

al


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

agmccall said:


> We have the setup with 2 fork lift batteries. we charge with generator. gave us decent power but can not move them. I am going to have to buy a hoist from harbor freight and lift the individual cells out, then build a wooden battery box. some of the cells have gone bad. I have 12 panels in the garage each about 300 watts and chargers to hook up.
> 
> Do you have any pics of how the panels are attached to the structure
> 
> al


Our 9 panels are 235watt each. Fork lift batts were suggested to us as well - and we rejected them because of the weight/footprint.
I dont have any pics but I'll snowshoe up there in a day or two, or maybe later today, & take some closeups for you. You get the general idea though, yes? Long rails were mounted full length on the horizontal 2x6s - and then the panels were attached to the rails.
Are you going to hook your panels up this year?


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> Our 9 panels are 235watt each. Fork lift batts were suggested to us as well - and we rejected them because of the weight/footprint.
> I dont have any pics but I'll snowshoe up there in a day or two, or maybe later today, & take some closeups for you. You get the general idea though, yes? *Long rails were mounted full length on the horizontal 2x6s - and then the panels were attached to the rails.*
> Are you going to hook your panels up this year?


*Boy, was I wrong.* That *^^* isn't the way they are attached at all. I wasn't up there for the install 3 yrs ago, so not sure why the method was changed out on the spot, but I like the way it was done - and actually it's probably stronger than the panels 'clipped' into rails would have been. I took pics, will edit them into this post soon.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

I'd be more worried about a gust from the back, toppling them over face-first.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Back Pack Hack said:


> I'd be more worried about a gust from the back, toppling them over face-first.


 If they were just 'clipped' in, that could happen with that kind of set-up; good news for us is the back (north) side is very sheltered, no winds coming that way at all, even snow doesn't blow in underneath from behind..and they're not 'clipped' on. They're bolted. Time for pics.


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## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> Are you going to hook your panels up this year?


We hope, that is the plan. I need to get a sectioned leveled. either rent a dozer for a day or just pay someone. I am at top of a "Mountain" 2500 elevation and hope to also add a wind turbine into the mix

al


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## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> *Boy, was I wrong.* That *^^* isn't the way they are attached at all. I wasn't up there for the install 3 yrs ago, so not sure why the method was changed out on the spot, but I like the way it was done - and actually it's probably stronger than the panels 'clipped' into rails would have been. I took pics, will edit them into this post soon.


I look forward to that. My Wife and I have been struggling with the mounting of these. Mostly the cost. Life will be so much better once these are installed and hooked up to the system

al


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

agmccall said:


> Do you have any pics of how the panels are attached to the structure


Ok, forget everything I said about rails.

The inner side flanges of each panel have factory mounting holes, spaced here and there, for different racks used in different applications. I recall now, while designing the structure, asking if there were any requirements for the 2x6s; there were. The tops needed to be exactly 41" apart from each other. Ah, right. To line up with the panel's holes. The panels were mounted with L brackets and bolts. The close-up pic shows how. Each panel is bolted in 4 places: on the edges, 2 near the top, 2 very near the bottom

Farthest west edge, also shows ground wire








Two panels bolted side by side to the 2x6








Close up








This shows two panels, bolted to the top and bottom 2x6s


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

MountainGirl said:


> ..........Farthest west edge, also shows ground wire........


In a few more years, it won't be a ground wire. It'll just be a copper wire that isn't connected to anything.

Those brackets are already failing, right where they a pressed against the bar copper. Galvanic action will open any useful connection is pretty short order, if there's any left at this point.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

agmccall said:


> We hope, that is the plan. I need to get a sectioned leveled. either rent a dozer for a day or just pay someone. I am at top of a "Mountain" 2500 elevation and hope to also add a wind turbine into the mix
> 
> al


There's a coincidence! We're just above 2500' with very little flat. Tom had to clear trees & level (both by hand) for a spot for his cabin. Any 'flat' we have now was 'built'. He had a small wind turbine to help charge up his 2 car batteries..but a high wind gust seized it.



agmccall said:


> I look forward to that. My Wife and I have been struggling with the mounting of these. Mostly the cost. Life will be so much better once these are installed and hooked up to the system
> 
> al


 It will, for sure. If you dont mind a tip - make sure your array is easily accessible. I dont know your snow situation, but it can be a bitch climbing 100' up in deep snow to clean off the panels. Also, our site is far from level; the only requirement was good sun. Everything else has options.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Back Pack Hack said:


> In a few more years, it won't be a ground wire. It'll just be a copper wire that isn't connected to anything.
> 
> Those brackets are already failing, right where they a pressed against the bar copper. Galvanic action will open any useful connection is pretty short order, if there's any left at this point.


Good to know, thanks!
Looks like we have another spring project for the list. 

What kind of ground wire set up do you have on your system, BPH?


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

MountainGirl said:


> Good to know, thanks!
> Looks like we have another spring project for the list.
> 
> What kind of ground wire set up do you have on your system, BPH?


Mine is an all-aluminum frame that's bolted together. Just one lug needed.


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## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

Not to hijack your thread. just an FYI, forklift batteries are made up of individual cells. If your handy with a torch you can unsweat them and take out the individual cells. Then remount them anyway you want. You can also put them in series-parallel and make whatever voltage you want with different amp sizes. You can also pull different voltages off of them.


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## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

modfan said:


> Not to hijack your thread. just an FYI, forklift batteries are made up of individual cells. If your handy with a torch you can unsweat them and take out the individual cells. Then remount them anyway you want. You can also put them in series-parallel and make whatever voltage you want with different amp sizes. You can also pull different voltages off of them.


Thanks for the info. The company I bought them from has offered me the FREE borrow of a bit that will allow me to drill out the connections. apparently this bit is quite expensive. I hope to get the cells out of their steel container and put them in a wooden battery box so I can add or take away any cells I want

al


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## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> There's a coincidence! We're just above 2500' with very little flat. Tom had to clear trees & level (both by hand) for a spot for his cabin. Any 'flat' we have now was 'built'. He had a small wind turbine to help charge up his 2 car batteries..but a high wind gust seized it.
> 
> It will, for sure. If you dont mind a tip - make sure your array is easily accessible. I dont know your snow situation, but it can be a bitch climbing 100' up in deep snow to clean off the panels. Also, our site is far from level; the only requirement was good sun. Everything else has options.


Most of my property is on a plateau so I do not have much to deal with. although the back part of my property drops off quite a bit it does not conflict with where my solar array will be. But, my solar will take up some garden space

al


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

This old boy on the Radio on Sat moning claims if a person does the math on a solar panel..it takes much more energy to makeit haul it..fix it and get rid of it than it could ever produce in many years of service. He was specifically talking about solar power being proposed to help recharge the batteries of electric cars in CA..since they dont like folks burning fossil fuels to make electricity. Prob do better just using in on the spot where needed. The guy always has a highly interesting web site with links to a lot of places. 
Ed Wallace's Inside Automotive


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## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

bigwheel said:


> This old boy on the Radio on Sat moning claims if a person does the math on a solar panel..it takes much more energy to makeit haul it..fix it and get rid of it than it could ever produce in many years of service. He was specifically talking about solar power being proposed to help recharge the batteries of electric cars in CA..since they dont like folks burning fossil fuels to make electricity. Prob do better just using in on the spot where needed. The guy always has a highly interesting web site with links to a lot of places.
> Ed Wallace's Inside Automotive


I agree with this to a point. For running a house the generator will put the initial charge on the batteries. The solar will keep them topped off and keep things running for days. And if the time ever comes then on sunny days we just might have to shut the house down and let the batteries charge and use only what is needed. Currently when I am on battery only I have to shut the well pump off as the surge is what trips the system. I should have gotten one of those slow start pumps that grundfos makes.

We also have all LED bulbs for lighting in the house. and new fridge and freezer that are very efficient. The next thing I will have to get is a LP stove for off grid as the one I have now works well but the oven has a heating element to light it. I have found anything that heats puts too much draw on the batteries.

Basically any heavy surge will drop the voltage of the batteries below the threshold that will trip the breaker on the inverter. Even though this only happens for a second it is still enough that I have to go out to the garage and flip the breaker. Sucks in winter as the garage is detached and about 100' away.

I will have to at some time add another inverter and battery bank so they can share the load. will also have to add more charging capacity either in the form of more solar panels and/or wind turbine.

I hope maybe someone could chime in on using wind. I have read some good things from people who have installed them, but not enough reviews out there. All the negative reviews seem to come from people who have not used them.

al


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

MountainGirl said:


> What kind of ground wire set up do you have on your system, BPH?


While not the same brand Lay In Lug I used to bond my panels these are the same type of connectors I used.
https://www.elecdirect.com/lug-compression-connectors/lay-in-lugs-solar-grounding-connectors


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## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> Ok, forget everything I said about rails.
> 
> The inner side flanges of each panel have factory mounting holes, spaced here and there, for different racks used in different applications. I recall now, while designing the structure, asking if there were any requirements for the 2x6s; there were. The tops needed to be exactly 41" apart from each other. Ah, right. To line up with the panel's holes. The panels were mounted with L brackets and bolts. The close-up pic shows how. Each panel is bolted in 4 places: on the edges, 2 near the top, 2 very near the bottom
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pics, makes things look a bit easier. On the first three pics it looks like a solid copper wire under the L brackets. is that for grounding

thanks again

al


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## agmccall (Jan 26, 2017)

Elvis said:


> While not the same brand Lay In Lug I used to bond my panels these are the same type of connectors I used.
> https://www.elecdirect.com/lug-compression-connectors/lay-in-lugs-solar-grounding-connectors


thanks for this

how are these connected to the panel and are they connected to all the panels or just first and last

al


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

agmccall said:


> Thanks for the pics, makes things look a bit easier. On the first three pics it looks like a solid copper wire under the L brackets. is that for grounding
> 
> thanks again
> 
> al


It is for grounding...but mostly it's so we'll feel better about it maybe being grounded. 
There's no way to pound in a grounding rod up there; that part of the mountain is a solid granite knob; deepest 'dirt' on top is under 12".
I either don't recall (or never knew) what that copper wire is attached to. It might be Tom ran it down to where a rod could be driven in.. but that would be at least a 200' run, so likely not.


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## NKAWTG (Feb 14, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> @agmccall
> 
> View attachment 103785
> 
> ...


Take advantage of the granite below, drill into the granite and insert anchor bolts to secure the structure. Hoping the wind won't blow them away is asking for trouble.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

agmccall said:


> thanks for this
> 
> how are these connected to the panel and are they connected to all the panels or just first and last
> 
> al


Use a small stainless steel or copper bolt and nut to connect the lug through the hole to the back of each panel frame. Then run a bare 10 ga or larger wire through the lugs and to your ground rod.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

NKAWTG said:


> Take advantage of the granite below, drill into the granite and insert anchor bolts to secure the structure. Hoping the wind won't blow them away is asking for trouble.


We like trouble; gives us something to do. :vs_laugh:

Your suggestion is the plan if it's ever needed. Over the last three years the array has not moved at all; summer winds hit the face occasionally at 25-30mph, had one head-on gust in a big storm clocked at 70. We checked it the next day, all good. Thanks for your reply!


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Elvis said:


> Use a small stainless steel or copper bolt and nut to connect the lug through the hole to the back of each panel frame. Then run a bare 10 ga or larger wire through the lugs and to your ground rod.


Any suggestions for grounding when you cant drive in a ground rod?


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Usually they want you to drive a ground rod down far enough to hit damp soil. If you only have 12 inches of dirt above the bedrock, you aren’t going to have damp soil most of the time. Maybe bury a long copper pipe or long section of copper wire as deep as possible. How long? I don’t know but I would think longer is better. Maybe 100 feet or so?


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

MountainGirl said:


> Any suggestions for grounding when you cant drive in a ground rod?


I've read up on that problem on two solar forums in the past. No good solution but the best suggestion is to bury the ground wire as deep as practical for a long distance. If you can get the ground wire buried at least 8-10 inches deep for 20' long it will be a huge help to spread the charge out. Deeper is better but sometimes not possible.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Do you have a copper pipe supplying water from your well to your home? You can ground to that. Maybe even ground to the well casing pipe.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

Chiefster23 said:


> Do you have a copper pipe supplying water from your well to your home? You can ground to that. Maybe even ground to the well casing pipe.


Using a metal pipe works well if the pipe connects to miles of steel pipe buried in the ground but I think she is a stand alone water system up in the mountains.

My solar panels are about 100' from the house and I don't want to help a lightning strike on the panels enter the house so the panel frames and their metal stand are grounded out at the panels. A separate ground handles from the panel combiner box to the house. Several Midnight Solar lightening protectors on the wires coming into the house.

I also use a solar electric fence charger so that the electric fence can't bring a lightning strike into the house. Learned to keep a spare solar fence charger since lightning has fried them twice.

A few years ago a lightning strike hit our front yard. Other strikes hit close by. The few neighbors within 1500 yds all had damaged electronics but we only lost the DSL modem. It seems that the phone line for the DSL has it's own ground (buried just outside the house) so the Midnight Solar surge protectors didn't protect it. The local DSL provider techs couldn't help me find a good way to protect that ground line so lightning smokes a modem about every 18 months. Lots of lightning here.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Chiefster23 said:


> Do you have a copper pipe supplying water from your well to your home? You can ground to that. Maybe even ground to the well casing pipe.


The well, casing & pipe to the cabin is 200' away from the array.. otherwise that might have been a good idea - as long as any lightning wouldn't follow it down & fry the pump.



Elvis said:


> Using a metal pipe works well if the pipe connects to miles of steel pipe buried in the ground but I think she is a stand alone water system up in the mountains.


Yeppers, she is.



> My solar panels are about 100' from the house and I don't want to help a lightning strike on the panels enter the house so the panel frames and their metal stand are grounded out at the panels. A separate ground handles from the panel combiner box to the house. Several Midnight Solar lightening protectors on the wires coming into the house.


Is your combiner box isolated then from the panels? Why wouldn't the panel wires be a path into it? LOL hope you can follow my question; sometimes I'm not sure if my words are working. The cabin is on a separate lightning protector setup.. still with lame grounding rod though. At least we got that one 3-4 feet down before hitting the knob.

​


> I also use a solar electric fence charger so that the electric fence can't bring a lightning strike into the house. Learned to keep a spare solar fence charger since lightning has fried them twice.
> 
> A few years ago a lightning strike hit our front yard. Other strikes hit close by. The few neighbors within 1500 yds all had damaged electronics but we only lost the DSL modem. It seems that the phone line for the DSL has it's own ground (buried just outside the house) so the Midnight Solar surge protectors didn't protect it. The local DSL provider techs couldn't help me find a good way to protect that ground line so lightning smokes a modem about every 18 months. Lots of lightning here.


No lightning up here. Even thunder is rare. But if it does hit the array - I'd just as soon it fries that & leaves down here alone... but I've got a sneakin' feelin' that the cabin is the ground rod for the array. LOLOL


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

MountainGirl said:


> Is your combiner box isolated then from the panels? Why wouldn't the panel wires be a path into it? LOL hope you can follow my question; sometimes I'm not sure if my words are working. The cabin is on a separate lightning protector setup.. still with lame grounding rod though. At least we got that one 3-4 feet down before hitting the knob.


I put a 2" thick piece of wood between the combiner box and the metal panel stand. So the silicone wafers and wires inside the panels are grounded through the house ground after going through 2 surge protectors (one on the combiner box and another on the box where the wires penetrate the garage wall). But the metal ground mount and the panels frames are grounded through a separate ground wire minimizing the chance of lightning coming into the house.

A potential problem with using more than one ground rod is if the two grounds are too close together (roughly less than 200' apart) any GIF (ground fault indicator) circuits like your outdoor and bathroom outlets have (a outlet that has a reset push button) may trip. A lot of MPPT type charge controllers also have GIF protection to protect against a minor short in a panel. But since the panel frames are isolated from the wires in the panels I didn't have this problem. But putting 2 ground rods on the same circuit less than about 200' apart can cause problems with GIF.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Elvis said:


> I put a 2" thick piece of wood between the combiner box and the metal panel stand. So the silicone wafers and wires inside the panels are grounded through the house ground after going through 2 surge protectors (one on the combiner box and another on the box where the wires penetrate the garage wall). But the metal ground mount and the panels frames are grounded through a separate ground wire minimizing the chance of lightning coming into the house.
> 
> A potential problem with using more than one ground rod is if the two grounds are too close together (roughly less than 200' apart) any GIF (ground fault indicator) circuits like your outdoor and bathroom outlets have (a outlet that has a reset push button) may trip. A lot of MPPT type charge controllers also have GIF protection to protect against a minor short in a panel. But since the panel frames are isolated from the wires in the panels I didn't have this problem. But putting 2 ground rods on the same circuit less than about 200' apart can cause problems with GIF.


Good to know, thanks.


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