# Military



## Ragnarök

A simple poll.

If you are a vet; what do you think sets you apart, in a survival situation, from those who have not been in the military? 

I do not mean this to mock any of you. I am a man who cares little for emotions. Give me statistics and information. 

I am good at listening, but I have grown tired of reading BS.


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## New guy 101

I think.... embracing the suck...sets us as a group apart.

All services...all branches...have the suck factor... most in the civilian world never see it...we do and we learn to cope with it...mentally.

It makes all the difference.

Embracing the suck is as simple as looking at your buddies face while you shiver in the cold surf during buds, or in a ORP in Ranger school or SF Q course....or running 5+ miles in a PT formation or humping 12 miles with a ruck.. and just laughing...


It's can best be quantified as the shake you give yourself when your freezing your ass off and for a minute you get warm again...
Or the little exchange of words that makes you get a little less burning in your lungs on a run...or makes your feet stop throbbing for a few minutes. or wakes you up more for that last hour of your guard duty.

Done enough..you learn that its a mental exercise and you can employ it more often....

Embrace the suck....


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## Coastie dad

New guy 101 said:


> I think.... embracing the suck...sets us as a group apart.
> 
> All services...all branches...have the suck factor... most in the civilian world never see it...we do and we learn to cope with it...mentally.
> 
> It makes all the difference.


First thing that popped I to my mind. Not the exact wording, but the same idea.
I have been schooled in the art of being miserable and learned to accept it.
That, and we know things are doable.


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## New guy 101

Coastie dad said:


> First thing that popped I to my mind. Not the exact wording, but the same idea.
> I have been schooled in the art of being miserable and learned to accept it.
> That, and we know things are doable.


sorry...you caught my post mid edit....


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## Denton

My dive buddy and I are vets. We enjoy diving all year long. 
Want to know what sets us apart from the civilian divers during the winter months? Simple. We don't bitch about the cold on the one hour ride back.

Vets know how to embrace the Suck.


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## New guy 101

Denton said:


> My dive buddy and I are vets. We enjoy diving all year long.
> Want to know what sets us apart from the civilian divers during the winter months? Simple. We don't bitch about the cold on the one hour ride back.
> 
> Vets know how to embrace the Suck.


But I bet a $1,000 you share that look with each other....


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## Coastie dad

Oo...oo...oo....

And we know not only what BOHICA stands for, but what it means.....:armata_PDT_08::armata_PDT_08::armata_PDT_08::armata_PDT_09::armata_PDT_09::armata_PDT_07::armata_PDT_07:


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## Denton

New guy 101 said:


> But I bet a $1,000 you share that look with each other....


Actually, he and his wife have long, curly hair. From behind, they look the same. Only one is a liberal and one is a conservative who was a ranger and jump master.
Why did he marry her? I suspect it is because she is a diver with curly, blond hair.


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## New guy 101

Denton said:


> Actually, he and his wife have long, curly hair. From behind, they look the same. Only one is a liberal and one is a conservative who was a ranger and jump master.
> Why did he marry her? I suspect it is because she is a diver with curly, blond hair.


I meant that look in to each others eyes when it really sucks...where you grin a little...


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## Jakthesoldier

It isn't statistical, you cannot measure willpower, intestinal fortitude, or stay in the fight mentality. These things are not tangible.

No, not ALL military personnel are going to have all of these traits. The concentration of persons who maintain an interest in "survival" and also possess these traits is higher in military personnel than in the average citizen.

The ability to learn new skills and put up with the level of suffering and sacrifice is higher among military personnel. 

In the US at least, I acknowledge that many other countries live in what most Americans call "survival"


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## Denton

New guy 101 said:


> I meant that look in to each others eyes when it really sucks...where you grin a little...


That was a grin? Being the dumbass I am, I thought it was a grimace and responded in kind.


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## Denton

Ragnarök said:


> A simple poll.
> 
> If you are a vet; what do you think sets you apart, in a survival situation, from those who have not been in the military?
> 
> I do not mean this to mock any of you. I am a man who cares little for emotions. Give me statistics and information.
> 
> I am good at listening, but I have grown tired of reading BS.


I appreciate your attitude.

Why are we different? Because we have been trained to live and continue on. I think that means a lot.


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## New guy 101

Ragnarök said:


> A simple poll.
> 
> If you are a vet; what do you think sets you apart, in a survival situation, from those who have not been in the military?
> 
> I do not mean this to mock any of you. I am a man who cares little for emotions. Give me statistics and information.
> 
> I am good at listening, but I have grown tired of reading BS.


Ragnarok... I have read many of your posts and know you to not be a foolish troll. You are a valuable member so you deserve an honest answer.

My first answer was honest and true, but I didn't realize you were asking from a non former military perspective. SO let me add some additional thoughts...
I am a retired service member with 20 years plus 10 as a government civilian. I see folks of all ages and from multiple eras espousing some learned position that excels then above all others in field craft and marksmanship, survival, and all other skills.

To be blunt...it irritates me more than most. Survival as taught in the military is temporary and based on evasion...in short..you are always going to be starving in their mode.... anyone selling anything else is BS. It doesn't teach you long term survival things...aka transition from survival to thrival...or existence...

Fact...most in the military shoot a rifle about twice a year... quick zero rounds... 25 meter course...and maybe a full 300 meter range live fire. Infantry requies every 6 months...all others annual. 
SO the idea that being in the military makes you an expert marksman is BS.

Fact...very very few ever go through any...ANY...survival training...

I was a Ranger...didn't get it...I was infantry for 10 years...didn't get it...Only through other specialties did I get it...and it lasted 30 days....

30 days out of 20 years....so how much did I retain????

What does the military give.... I revert back to my first answer... and encourage you to always question the validity of supposed "Operators"... No one is beyond reproach...


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## SGG

Amazing post^^^


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## New guy 101

... 

Face it SGG...you and I are just battling for post counts now....I'm ahead by 1......

oh wait....damn! LOL. Thanks friend.


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## SGG

New guy 101 said:


> ...
> 
> Face it SGG...you and I are just battling for post counts now....I'm ahead by 1......
> 
> oh wait....damn! LOL. Thanks friend.


Haha!!

Very funny, I didn't even know what your or my post count was

I had been trying to make my posts here count for something. (Not successfully tho)

On every other forum, I'm pretty much the top dog post whore (no life?)

I take throw more seriously than others even though looks like I just post BS....

Like @A Watchman, I'm usually just watching, learning


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## New guy 101

I'm actually over 2,000 posts if you count my Buddhist's previous persona... but content over count any day.... goodnight.


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## SGG

New guy 101 said:


> I'm actually over 2,000 posts if you count my Buddhist's previous persona... but content over count any day.... goodnight.


11k, for me, in one year, an auto forum....before I realized what's more important.

Night, I'm headed there myself


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## Denton

You lunatics need a new hobby..

Personally, I play solitaire till dawn with a deck of fifty-one...


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## New guy 101

Denton said:


> You lunatics need a new hobby..
> 
> Personally, I play solitaire till dawn with a deck of fifty-one...


smokin cigarettes and watching capt kangaroo


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## New guy 101

Denton said:


> You lunatics need a new hobby..
> 
> Personally, I play solitaire till dawn with a deck of fifty-one...


 you ain`t nothing unless you watched Romper Room!!!!!


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## Sasquatch

New guy 101 said:


> you ain`t nothing unless you watched Romper Room!!!!!


I'm pretty sure I never heard them mention New guy 101 when they were looking through the magic mirror.

As for the OP...hmmmm, where do I start? I guess I can't argue with the premise but not all military can "embrace the suck". I've met a few people that were military and they are HUGE crybabies. Personally I never served but I can take a lot more than most people. But with everything there are exceptions to every rule.


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## SittingElf

New guy 101 said:


> I'm actually over 2,000 posts if you count my Buddhist's previous persona.........


Please elucidate......


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## Smitty901

Dust storm coming a big one, 130 plus degrees. 15 to 18 hour mission 7 days a week. MRE's for 90% of the meals 3 months running. Living out of a ruck who the heck knows where that A bag even is. Shower is a bucket of water and a ripped up T shirt behind the tent. Soldier sitting on a seat pulled from a blown up bus reading a paper back. Weapon to his side . The picture I still have some were you know , he is thinking do what you want for now I don't care right now I am going to finish the chapter. 
Not all but many have been tested. Few in our society except some LEO and Fire fighters have been. Most go through life pretty much doing what they want or not doing what they don't want.
You spend far more time in the Army I served in training than you do real missions. Often the training is as rough if not harder than a deployment. Except in training the real bullets are going down range not at you. Stick around in Uniform long enough you will be tested, some will be tested to their limits.
Many that serve learn why we work as a team and follow orders, at the same time learning at times a decision must be made right or wrong you must act. I can never figure out how many hours, days months and years I spent training. When the fight has stop there is still work to do. Not like paint ball where you all go to the bar and high five each other over the bad ass moves .
I am a pretty nice guy according to most. But even at my age give me a reason and I can change very quickly to some one you do not want to know. I have to work at being nice. The other me comes natural. Are we any different than others? Yes in many cases. That does not make us any better people. Just the ones you want when it goes bad.


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## Slippy

Denton said:


> You lunatics need a new hobby..
> 
> Personally, I play solitaire till dawn with a deck of fifty-one...





New guy 101 said:


> smokin cigarettes and watching capt kangaroo


Now, don't tell me I've nothing to do.


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## A Watchman

Counting flowers on the wall.


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## A Watchman

Thanks guys for pulling up an old memory ...... that I cherish. Too good not to share. The Statler Brothers.


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## dwight55

Yes, A1, and a +++++ to the idea of the suck factor being something most civies have no concept of or about.

But we did not overcome it by ourselves, . . . and that to me is the most important part.

We were a team, . . . maybe loosely organized, . . . maybe looked sloppy, . . . and maybe spent a lot of time with a paper-back Louis Lamour book wondering how (not IF) the marshal was gonna best this bunch of desperadoes coming after him.

And when the chips were down, . . . we looked American, . . . united, . . . together, . . . 50 stars in a blue field, . . . sewn together, . . . one could not fall out. We operated that way, . . . united, . . . together, . . . watching each other's back.

I was Navy, . . . down at Can Tho, . . . Air Base, . . . my jungle boots were darn near falling off. Didn't know the AF had a quonset hut where they brought old uniforms, . . . turned them in, . . . got new ones. 

I was on "guard the trucks" detail, . . . saw it happen, . . . went over and asked the airman if I could get a new pair of boots. He just grinned and told me not while they were on my feet.

We were both Americans, . . . he had new boots, . . . I needed new boots, . . . and maybe someone higher up in his chain of command might disapprove, . . . but he did it anyway.

The teamwork concept was the one thing I really got from the service, . . . and I think it will be the thing that will make a difference when whatever happens next, . . . happens.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Slippy

I just saw a news story of a little girl who had her leg amputated from complications of Cancer. She competes in gymnastics with one leg against two legged gymnasts. Smile on her face the whole time.

She earns the Slippy Seal of Approval for embracing the Suck.


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## csi-tech

The things that make former military personnel adept in such situations is just experience. I was separated from my family for months on end during deployments, then we would get underway for the week, dock for the weekend (hope you didn't have duty) then right back out for a week, a month, 3 months, 6 months. You never knew. If there was a hot spot on the globe it seemed like my ship drew the short lot every time. I guess that explains the two Battle E's we received. 

Emotionally we were accustomed to being away. We didn't get homesick after a while, we just had a new home. We would be on the flight deck doing cyclic (around the clock) flight ops in miserable conditions and ordered to sleep on station. That usually meant sleeping in a net over the ocean or under a gun tub. We ate MRE's when it was bad and when we went to the beach with the marines. Sleep deprivation was the rule rather than the exception. We lost our shipmates when they were far too young. I think we had to live an entire lifetime in a single tour of duty. 

We were also obedient, we were all leaders and we were all subordinates. We were absolutely and unfailingly dedicated to each other. Where we go one, we go all. That could mean head long into a flight deck crash or to the brig after one of our drunk buddies made an unwelcome comment to British sailors from the HMS Intrepid at the Flamingo Club at the NATO base in Naples. No one gets left behind and we all crossed the quarterdeck together every time. These experiences never go away. We all embraced the suck.


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## SOCOM42

New guy 101 said:


> smokin cigarettes and watching capt kangaroo


Don't tell me i've nothing to do.

Edit, should have read further before posting.


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## Smitty901

New guy 101 said:


> you ain`t nothing unless you watched Romper Room!!!!!


 Not only watched it I was on it once.


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## SittingElf

This goes far beyond just experience, training, or "embracing the suck".

My closest friends are all vets. The people I trust most outside my family are all vets. Vets tend to gravitate towards other vets from shared knowledge, experience, discipline, teamwork and more.

It's a brotherhood that crosses services, and persists indefinitely. I would much more trust a neighbor who is a vet, than one who isn't....regardless of how "reliable" they may seem. And in my case, I am fortunate that I have solid, upstanding, and highly reliable neighbors who are vets.

A vet can be counted on to help defend; not fall asleep on guard duty; protect his family and team; sacrifice when necessary; and not hesitate when it means life or death in a battle.

Where this comes to prepping and SHTF....vets may not have had specific training for those situations, but they are adaptable, willing to train, and can be made experts in short order.

Personally, I think that a military service record should be a mandatory prerequisite to be considered for the Presidency. In addition, I support the idea of Universal Service...not necessarily military, but ALL Americans should have to do at least 18 months of service to gain the full and permanent rights and privileges of citizenship...INCLUDING the right to vote. Many countries require this including Germany, Israel, and many others. What makes us any different.

Here endeth the rant.


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## Slippy

Smitty901 said:


> Not only watched it I was on it once.


This, we have to hear. :tango_face_grin:


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## Prepared One

SittingElf said:


> Personally, I think that a military service record should be a mandatory prerequisite to be considered for the Presidency. In addition, I support the idea of Universal Service...not necessarily military, but ALL Americans should have to do at least 18 months of service to gain the full and permanent rights and privileges of citizenship...INCLUDING the right to vote. Many countries require this including Germany, Israel, and many others. What makes us any different.
> 
> Here endeth the rant.


I agree 100%.


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## rice paddy daddy

Those who have embraced the suck know the absolute best, most wonderful, feeling in the whole world is laying in a warm bed with clean sheets on a rainy night. Listening to the rain on the roof and the window panes. In America.
Instead of being half way around the world in a hole filling with monsoon rain in the pitch black waiting on the boogeymen to come. And hoping they just go on by, headed south, and leave us alone.

It ain't like the John Wayne movies.


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## Coastie dad

But to quote a movie:

"Best job I ever had."


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## M118LR

Ragnarök said:


> A simple poll.
> 
> If you are a vet; what do you think sets you apart, in a survival situation, from those who have not been in the military?
> 
> I do not mean this to mock any of you. I am a man who cares little for emotions. Give me statistics and information.
> 
> I am good at listening, but I have grown tired of reading BS.


By statistics and information would the classes in survival training offered count?

AST-Arctic Survival Training: Air Force's Arctic Survival School - Business Insider

DWEST-Deep Water Environment Survival Training: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/u...en-a-pilots-world-turns-upside-down.html?_r=0

JEST-Jungle Environment Survival Training: G-1 Tactical Solutions, LLC. | G-1 Jungle Survival Course

SERE-Survival Evasion Resistance Escape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_and_Escape

I'm not sure that these classes/training would set us apart, but they sure help prepare you for the "Suck" that Uncle Sam considers as job related obstacles.


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## Smitty901

Slippy said:


> This, we have to hear. :tango_face_grin:


 When I was very young. Some where there is a photo of it but I have not seen it in over 50 plus years. It was used as blackmail when I was a teen.


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## SAR-1L

Ragnarök said:


> A simple poll.
> 
> If you are a vet; what do you think sets you apart, in a survival situation, from those who have not been in the military?
> 
> I do not mean this to mock any of you. I am a man who cares little for emotions. Give me statistics and information.
> 
> I am good at listening, but I have grown tired of reading BS.


First I am not a vet, nor will I ever steal the credit and honor our veterans deserve.

However, I have to agree with the veterans on this forum in regards to "embracing the suck" which is slang for Mental Toughness.
There is a variety of exercises you can do to increase your mental toughness for yourself.

Most civilians simply do not know or have not been conditioned for mental toughness.

The other thing is brotherhood, leadership and teamwork. Those things are much more important than you think.
The civilian world is full of dis-functional teams, authorities who think they are leaders, and a sense of me, me, me.

Now those things aside.

A soldier is a professional, trained to do a job just like any civilian professional, take them out of their professional role,
and they will not be effective. Being a soldier does not make you the worlds greatest authority in hand-to-hand, handgun,
or survival tactics.

Some of the worst handgun marksmen are your rifle infantrymen, most soldiers are not taught extensive hand-to-hand combatives 
cause their role often is not deemed as needing it, and unless you are in a specialized MOS, your best bet for survival is to stick
with your brothers.

What prompted your question, are you considering military? Or are you simply seeking to become the best survivalist you can?


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## Coastie dad

I agree with the lack of long term survival skills for the general mos.

Most time, resupply was available within hours. I think the longest I went with no planned resupply was a 72 hour window.


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## 8301

I've never been in the military. People who have been in the military will instinctively understand tactical points about the terrain that I may not. People with military training will also understand how to protect themselves using the terrain better than I would. Having said that in my case I know the area within 5 miles intimately with every hill and clump of trees. So while someone trained in the art of war will have advantages I will also have some strengths and the advantage of holding the defensive position.

As far as the "suck" factor many civilians (including myself) have spent weeks at a time on the trail, marathons run, lakes swum across, and technical rock climbing experience. In addition unlike many out of the service military people I still am out there every day sweating and working on the property for 6-10 hrs a day. Plus the advantage that for at least the next several years the ability to coordinate by radio with members of my group and distant neighbors will be a huge tactical advantage after the 1st month when most batteries are dead.


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## Coastie dad

Not the same "suck", but similar in some ways I guess.


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## dwight55

Not all vets fall into this category, . . . but for those of us who do, . . . 

There is nothing like just escaping being thoroughly, unabashadly, and perfectly killed right real good and dead, . . . that makes you value life.

Bullets whizzing past your ear, . . . the smell of a dead comrade's body fished from the river, . . . looking at a pile of rubble knowing it was meant (by them) for you, . . . but they missed, . . . a mortar attack in the middle of your chocolate ice cream, . . . a casket slipping into the sea from under our flag.

All of these are far worse than the civilian versions: long lines at Walmart, . . . the drive-thru closed early, . . . no twitter reception in this area, . . . the ATM won't take the card, . . . or the Cleveland Browns lose again.

Some of us have experienced one or more of these things, . . . that is what equips us to go from reading the latest Louis Lamour western, . . . to a full fledged "shoot em in the face and make sure they are dead", . . . soldier/sailor/airman/marine/coastie , . . . in all of .01 seconds. 

Civilians are still trying to find out if they are wearing the proper camo pattern for this particular brand of conflict.

There is an experience of life lived and almost lost that cannot be found in the civilian world, . . . many vets have lived it, . . . endured it, . . . and sometimes just sit out on the front porch, . . . watching the barn swallows feed mosquitoes to their babies, . . . and say "Thank you, Lord".

Then they remember, . . . and try to forget.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## 8301

As a civilian does having 2 people die as I pump on one guy's chest (doc was using a hand squeeze breathing mask while I squatted inside the vehicle and pumped) and the other while I was trying to control the bleeding count? Auto accidents can be quite ugly.

And yes I have heard the buzz of bullets passing close by, several actually hit the tree I then jumped behind. A bit more exciting than standing in line at WalMart.

With all respect to those who have served sometimes civilians will hold up well in a crisis.


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## SAR-1L

I try to encourage people not to discount each other's experiences.

Not all military MOS's are front line, just like not all civilian's sheltered as some military servicemen believe.
You don't need to go to Fallujah, Allepo, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc, etc... to experience hostile environment.

Take a stroll into the wrong American neighborhood and you will tell stories startingly similar. Just saying, not all threats are foreign.

P.S. and before someone chimes in with how different it is to encounter small arms fire vs tanks, IED, RPG, and napalm, just remember
it doesn't matter if it is 1911 or barrel bomb, dead is dead.


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## Targetshooter

Military training helps , but common know how to survive is the way to go . know just want needs to be done at the right time and how to deal with the problems as they come up . prepping is one way to survive is this messed up world .


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## Two Seven One

As a USAF veteran, some other branches call it the Chair Force  , I didn't receive any training in survival and very limited training in the use of fire arms. Of course that doesn't apply to all that serve in the Air Force (see Pararescue and Combat Controllers among others) . However, like others have stated I did learn how to perform under extreme stress, fatigue, and basically how to keep my shit together under those circumstances while being part of a team. I learned personal responsibility and discipline. I knew that even one lapse in concentration while on duty could result in extremely bad consequences for others. While this may not translate into a SHTF survival scenario I'd like like to think those values would help somewhat in a survival situation.

Of course there are many civilians that have also learned those same skills and values. However, what I think sets veterans apart is the always have each other's back attitude and the close bond it formed. We were a family often 1,000s of miles away from our loved ones for extended periods of time. When I left the service and transitioned back into the civilian world this was the one thing I missed and noticed first. To this day my best friends are people I served with and I know in a pinch I can count on them as they can me. It's a family that once a part of you will always be a part of.


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## Maine-Marine

Most non-military people have never sat in a wet hole for hours waiting on the enemy to show up. 

most non military people have not had to march past the point they want to stop or been required to work with blisters

most non-military folks have never had to sleep in the cold and wet

as mentioned before... THE SUCK.. the plain old fashioned crap that most military people will just suck up and move through with just a shake of the head and a weary smile

it is picking the BEST spot for an ambush not the most comfortable

it is laying down in the mud and taking a small amount of pleasure in the craziness of it

It is sleeping for 20 minutes when needed even though you are wet cold and hungry

it is getting the mission/task done before going home or taking a break

The better question is... how will the non military folks act when the have to get some place in the wet and cold when their boots and leaking and their underwear is chaffing a patch on their thighs or they have to lay silent in a nasty wet hole


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## dsdmmat

rice paddy daddy said:


> Those who have embraced the suck know the absolute best, most wonderful, feeling in the whole world is laying in a warm bed with clean sheets on a rainy night. Listening to the rain on the roof and the window panes. In America.
> Instead of being half way around the world in a hole filling with monsoon rain in the pitch black waiting on the boogeymen to come. And hoping they just go on by, headed south, and leave us alone.
> 
> It ain't like the John Wayne movies.


Add to that the joy of being able to take a shower, a hot shower, for as long as you want in a place where you don't have to share with 60-100 other people, and not having to wait for your turn at the 5 gallons water jug to brush your teeth.


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## acidMia

Maine-Marine said:


> The better question is... how will the non military folks act when the have to get some place in the wet and cold when their boots and leaking and their underwear is chaffing a patch on their thighs or they have to lay silent in a nasty wet hole


As a non-military, I can confirm I've never had to sit in a wet hole for hours; and surely to the extent you are likely referring, I haven't had to work with blisters, or sleep in the cold wet. However, having nothing better to 'put up', as my raising had taught me, I'd be one to 'shut up' quickly. My father was very much the 'suck it up', 'walk it off' type. And since my mother was rarely around in the instances that I would get hurt enough to cry about, it's my father's voice that echoes in my head when I get down to feeling sorry for myself. So while I may complain from time to time, I'd like to believe that if my life depends on it, it will be done.

I think, as with everything, I would consider people for the people they are. Military experience would likely be an asset in many cases, but I wouldn't rule out the non-military just because their experiences aren't 'on paper'... they may surprise you.


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## 8301

acidMia said:


> As a non-military, I can confirm I've never had to sit in a wet hole for hours; and surely to the extent you are likely referring, I haven't had to work with blisters, or sleep in the cold wet. However, having nothing better to 'put up', as my raising had taught me, I'd be one to 'shut up' quickly. My father was very much the 'suck it up', 'walk it off' type. And since my mother was rarely around in the instances that I would get hurt enough to cry about, it's my father's voice that echoes in my head when I get down to feeling sorry for myself. So while I may complain from time to time, I'd like to believe that if my life depends on it, it will be done.
> 
> I think, as with everything, I would consider people for the people they are. Military experience would likely be an asset in many cases, but I wouldn't rule out the non-military just because their experiences aren't 'on paper'... they may surprise you.


Agreed!, When I was 8 with my broken and dislocated hand laying backwards on my forearm my father refused to take me to the hospital until I stopped crying. That was when I learned that I could control my crying. He then had my brother reset my wrist before driving me to get my cast for the broken wrist.

Dad loved me very much but wanted me to be mentally strong.

I remember using the cast to help my 3rd grade teacher pound thumbtacks into the hard tack board so a good memory.


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## Maine-Marine

I know a lot of civilians... And yes there are some that have great work ethic and will step up..

But come SHTF... I KNOW the military guy can take orders, has finished basic training, and understand team work... I KNOW THAT... with civilians... I do not know that until they show it

Yes there are some idiot military folks... but they are fewer then the civilians.

It would be like picking a team for baseball... except it is now SHTF... I will take the military guys/girls all day long

give me the old Vietnam vet over some high school football star any day


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## Ragnarök

Denton said:


> I appreciate your attitude.
> 
> Why are we different? Because we have been trained to live and continue on. I think that means a lot.


I think so too. It means everything.


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## Ragnarök

New guy 101 said:


> Ragnarok... I have read many of your posts and know you to not be a foolish troll. You are a valuable member so you deserve an honest answer.
> 
> My first answer was honest and true, but I didn't realize you were asking from a non former military perspective. SO let me add some additional thoughts...
> I am a retired service member with 20 years plus 10 as a government civilian. I see folks of all ages and from multiple eras espousing some learned position that excels then above all others in field craft and marksmanship, survival, and all other skills.
> 
> To be blunt...it irritates me more than most. Survival as taught in the military is temporary and based on evasion...in short..you are always going to be starving in their mode.... anyone selling anything else is BS. It doesn't teach you long term survival things...aka transition from survival to thrival...or existence...
> 
> Fact...most in the military shoot a rifle about twice a year... quick zero rounds... 25 meter course...and maybe a full 300 meter range live fire. Infantry requies every 6 months...all others annual.
> SO the idea that being in the military makes you an expert marksman is BS.
> 
> Fact...very very few ever go through any...ANY...survival training...
> 
> I was a Ranger...didn't get it...I was infantry for 10 years...didn't get it...Only through other specialties did I get it...and it lasted 30 days....
> 
> 30 days out of 20 years....so how much did I retain????
> 
> What does the military give.... I revert back to my first answer... and encourage you to always question the validity of supposed "Operators"... No one is beyond reproach...


I am always looking for perspectives in life that originate from a starkly different environment than what I know.

What I see in military vets is a strong sense of pride in what they have accomplished. It is my guess that the structure, and the message of perfection in what you do also gives vets an edge. Not that this does not exist in civilian life. However, especially now days more and more excuses pop up regarding achievement and abilities. Being the inclusive society that we are, we forget that intense competition is healthy. In the long run being broken down to nothing makes you better.

In survival, evasion is probably the best way to go in my opinion. Even if you are capable of overcoming your adversary the possibility of injury or the other unforeseeable conclusions outweigh the victory. Of course sometimes you have to fight and make a stand . You cannot study what you cannot see.

That is odd the survival training is so short. More funding would be nice to supplement that.


----------



## New guy 101

Ragnarök said:


> I am always looking for perspectives in life that originate from a starkly different environment than what I know.
> 
> What I see in military vets is a strong sense of pride in what they have accomplished. It is my guess that the structure, and the message of perfection in what you do also gives vets an edge. Not that this does not exist in civilian life. However, especially now days more and more excuses pop up regarding achievement and abilities. Being the inclusive society that we are, we forget that intense competition is healthy. In the long run being broken down to nothing makes you better.
> 
> In survival, evasion is probably the best way to go in my opinion. Even if you are capable of overcoming your adversary the possibility of injury or the other unforeseeable conclusions outweigh the victory. Of course sometimes you have to fight and make a stand . You cannot study what you cannot see.
> 
> That is odd the survival training is so short. More funding would be nice to supplement that.


It was the longest 30 days of my life...SERE. best training I would never volunteer to do again.


----------



## Ragnarök

SittingElf said:


> This goes far beyond just experience, training, or "embracing the suck".
> 
> My closest friends are all vets. The people I trust most outside my family are all vets. Vets tend to gravitate towards other vets from shared knowledge, experience, discipline, teamwork and more.
> 
> It's a brotherhood that crosses services, and persists indefinitely. I would much more trust a neighbor who is a vet, than one who isn't....regardless of how "reliable" they may seem. And in my case, I am fortunate that I have solid, upstanding, and highly reliable neighbors who are vets.
> 
> A vet can be counted on to help defend; not fall asleep on guard duty; protect his family and team; sacrifice when necessary; and not hesitate when it means life or death in a battle.
> 
> Where this comes to prepping and SHTF....vets may not have had specific training for those situations, but they are adaptable, willing to train, and can be made experts in short order.
> 
> Personally, I think that a military service record should be a mandatory prerequisite to be considered for the Presidency. In addition, I support the idea of Universal Service...not necessarily military, but ALL Americans should have to do at least 18 months of service to gain the full and permanent rights and privileges of citizenship...INCLUDING the right to vote. Many countries require this including Germany, Israel, and many others. What makes us any different.
> 
> Here endeth the rant.


I agree 100% especially about mandatory service if you want to be president.

Do you think that our country could afford to pay every citizen to be a soldier for this 18 months?


----------



## Ragnarök

M118LR said:


> By statistics and information would the classes in survival training offered count?
> 
> AST-Arctic Survival Training: Air Force's Arctic Survival School - Business Insider
> 
> DWEST-Deep Water Environment Survival Training: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/u...en-a-pilots-world-turns-upside-down.html?_r=0
> 
> JEST-Jungle Environment Survival Training: G-1 Tactical Solutions, LLC. | G-1 Jungle Survival Course
> 
> SERE-Survival Evasion Resistance Escape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_and_Escape
> 
> I'm not sure that these classes/training would set us apart, but they sure help prepare you for the "Suck" that Uncle Sam considers as job related obstacles.


I meant give me information so that I could create my own statistics based on the responses here.

Thanks for those links though. Gives me something to read while I take the work days edge off.


----------



## inceptor

Ragnarök said:


> I agree 100% especially about mandatory service if you want to be president.
> 
> _Do you think that our country could afford to pay every citizen to be a soldier for this 18 months?_


Why not? We pay for all kinds of crap. It would be nice to pay for something useful.


----------



## Denton

Mandatory service? I'm not for that. 

Those who want to serve, can if they meet the challenge. For those who wish not to serve, that is fine but it should be considered if they run for president.

Should it be a prerequisite for becoming president? I wouldn't go that far, but it would make them a better commander in chief if they had served. I would rather they display good understanding and respect for the constitution and the Bill of Rights.


----------



## Ragnarök

SAR-1L said:


> First I am not a vet, nor will I ever steal the credit and honor our veterans deserve.
> 
> However, I have to agree with the veterans on this forum in regards to "embracing the suck" which is slang for Mental Toughness.
> There is a variety of exercises you can do to increase your mental toughness for yourself.
> 
> Most civilians simply do not know or have not been conditioned for mental toughness.
> 
> The other thing is brotherhood, leadership and teamwork. Those things are much more important than you think.
> The civilian world is full of dis-functional teams, authorities who think they are leaders, and a sense of me, me, me.
> 
> Now those things aside.
> 
> A soldier is a professional, trained to do a job just like any civilian professional, take them out of their professional role,
> and they will not be effective. Being a soldier does not make you the worlds greatest authority in hand-to-hand, handgun,
> or survival tactics.
> 
> Some of the worst handgun marksmen are your rifle infantrymen, most soldiers are not taught extensive hand-to-hand combatives
> cause their role often is not deemed as needing it, and unless you are in a specialized MOS, your best bet for survival is to stick
> with your brothers.
> 
> What prompted your question, are you considering military? Or are you simply seeking to become the best survivalist you can?


No I would not join the U.S military of today. The only way I would fight for this country is if we were being invaded. In that case I would join a militia. Upholding my countries sovereignty, and protecting what our forefathers built as well as honoring what every serviceman died for or fought for in our history would be the push.

My reason for asking this question is I have never asked it to a large group before. I have friends in the Marine Corps, but this is on a individual basis. This way it gives me many viewpoints, and from different branches I am not familiar.


----------



## Ragnarök

Maine-Marine said:


> Most non-military people have never sat in a wet hole for hours waiting on the enemy to show up.
> 
> most non military people have not had to march past the point they want to stop or been required to work with blisters
> 
> most non-military folks have never had to sleep in the cold and wet
> 
> as mentioned before... THE SUCK.. the plain old fashioned crap that most military people will just suck up and move through with just a shake of the head and a weary smile
> 
> it is picking the BEST spot for an ambush not the most comfortable
> 
> it is laying down in the mud and taking a small amount of pleasure in the craziness of it
> 
> It is sleeping for 20 minutes when needed even though you are wet cold and hungry
> 
> it is getting the mission/task done before going home or taking a break
> 
> The better question is... how will the non military folks act when the have to get some place in the wet and cold when their boots and leaking and their underwear is chaffing a patch on their thighs or they have to lay silent in a nasty wet hole


I think they would learn real damn quick that complaining isn't gonna make their situation any better. Then again I may be giving people to much credit.


----------



## Ragnarök

Maine-Marine said:


> I know a lot of civilians... And yes there are some that have great work ethic and will step up..
> 
> But come SHTF... I KNOW the military guy can take orders, has finished basic training, and understand team work... I KNOW THAT... with civilians... I do not know that until they show it
> 
> Yes there are some idiot military folks... but they are fewer then the civilians.
> 
> It would be like picking a team for baseball... except it is now SHTF... I will take the military guys/girls all day long
> 
> give me the old Vietnam vet over some high school football star any day


Good point on the ability to take orders. That would be a huge problem in SHTF for sure.


----------



## Ragnarök

inceptor said:


> Why not? We pay for all kinds of crap. It would be nice to pay for something useful.


Absolutely. Could we afford this though I wonder. Already being heavily in debt. What would the cost be? A country with roughly 75 million citizens between the ages 18-34. How many have already served?


----------



## Ragnarök

Denton said:


> Mandatory service? I'm not for that.
> 
> Those who want to serve, can if they meet the challenge. For those who wish not to serve, that is fine but it should be considered if they run for president.
> 
> Should it be a prerequisite for becoming president? I wouldn't go that far, but it would make them a better commander in chief if they had served. I would rather they display good understanding and respect for the constitution and the Bill of Rights.


Whats the constitution? 

That's our future. Prepare


----------



## Maol9

Deleted


----------



## Maol9

Maine-Marine said:


> I know a lot of civilians... And yes there are some that have great work ethic and will step up..
> 
> But come SHTF... I KNOW the military guy can take orders, has finished basic training, and understand team work... I KNOW THAT... with civilians... I do not know that until they show it
> 
> Yes there are some idiot military folks... but they are fewer then the civilians.
> 
> It would be like picking a team for baseball... except it is now SHTF... I will take the military guys/girls all day long
> 
> give me the old Vietnam vet over some high school football star any day


Me I am non military.

Wifey was 31kilo. 39 kills during her second Re-forager, and one of the first American woman to successful go through the Schützenhaus. She is very proud of that Blue Braid and Iron Eagle, especially as she is Bavarian Born.

Me? I don't worry my ability to embrace the suck.

At 17 I climbed a 100" cliff in Colorado after crashing my 64 Land Cruiser, while trying to not bleed out with my left leg in a self applied tourniquet.

At 19 while on a deep arctic exploration survey for ARCO, some freaking moron drove our Nodwell off into a huge ice crevice in the Arctic Ocean and a steel bar was driven through my face. It took five days to get me to an airlift LZ. I was back blowing the crap out ice ridges within 72 hours of medical attention. That little tour lasted 6.5 months. Half of the men we started with didn't make it. Declared psychologically unfit and airlifted out. The coldest day we endured was -96F with -158F wind chill. You inhale that air directly you die. Embrace that Suck.

I could go on and on...

Just so you know even when I got older I could still embrace the Suck...

At 38 I climbed up to a bridge deck with one arm because my right hand was partially severed, with tendons sticking out the end of wrist and my nerves blowing in the wind and then drove 90 miles to town. The only reason I couldn't get an airlift was because the other guys were already on the only evac Choppers headed for Billings and Denver before I made it to the bridge deck so one knew about me because of the noise and the time it took me rescue myself. They couldn't see me or hear me, and had know idea I was even missing. Embrace that Suck.

BTW I see military folks go down in flames all the time in my profession.

You are right though I would hire them or rancher/farm kids with team sports experience over anybody else.

Now a days, I can look in your eyes and know if you can embrace the suck. Or if you are just BS-ing yourself and the world.


----------



## Coastie dad

Maol9, my friend, please don't take this personally, but stay away from me. You are a s**t magnet.:vs_whistle:

Sounds like fate likes to take a leak in your Cheerios bowl on a regular basis. 

I can relate on one point really well. I rode a m113 into a ravine because the driver wasn't looking where he was going in the early dusk. Spinal damage and a sexy scar on the cheek where a prc77 (radio) was strapped to the commander's hatch. Disneyland has nothing on that ride.


----------



## Medic33

other than the suck -about all I can add is we know what "the suck" looks like as it is coming in a slow motion train wreck sort of way.
we also,Well some have experienced various degrees of "the suck" so we got oh dam that sucks---all the way up to wholly [email protected]#$ing Sh^& that's going to suck and understand what the stone age actually looks like-
some also have seen real horror really nasty evil crap ,we know how fear feels when it lasts days and we work abound it not around it. we also understand if no one is around to dig a ditch and you got to dig one guess what your digging with your hands if need be.


----------



## Medic33

we also experience things that no one else does -not just combat- other things that no amount of training can prepare you for and we wing it through later look back a know first hand do to trial and error what works.
a lot of times we don't have a choice we know it sucks we know it's going to suck and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it just try and make the best of it.


----------



## Denton

> 39 kills during her second Re-forager


 @Maol9 Re-forager? Do you mean REFORGER?


----------



## Maol9

LOL Yes I do, she'll give me hell!!!

Remember It wasn't me it was her. I am only basking in her reflected glory.

I will ask her which one I referenced there, I know that it was her second, and I know she didn't survive the first one.

I do know some more about that second REFORGER as well. I'll just say she acquitted herself well, and she doesn't like bragging.

I do it for her.


----------



## Denton

Maol9 said:


> LOL Yes I do, she'll give me hell!!!
> 
> Remember It wasn't me it was her. I am only basking in her reflected glory.
> 
> I will ask her which one I referenced there, I know that it was her second, and I know she didn't survive the first one.
> 
> I do know some more about that second REFORGER as well. I'll just say she acquitted herself well, and she doesn't like bragging.
> 
> I do it for her.


31K - K-9 handler?


----------



## Maol9

Denton said:


> 31K - K-9 handler?


Forward Combat Communications


----------



## Coastie dad

Confirmed kills with MILES gear, I assume...


----------



## A Watchman

This has been a great thread. I like the term The Suck and I get it. No breaks, can't go home, can't come back later, no temporary comfort, no immediate relief, no one to complain to, just a job to do, and understanding no one cares. 

Few have it, most do not. Learning The Suck, if you have not already, should be your next prep.

Again, thanks for all the great input Guys.


----------



## Maine-Marine

Maol9 said:


> Now a days, I can look in your eyes and know if you can embrace the suck. Or if you are just BS-ing yourself and the world.


Please... chances are that look could be last nights beer and chili


----------



## Maol9

Coastie dad said:


> Confirmed kills with MILES gear, I assume...


Some were also declared dead by Referees


----------



## Maol9

Maine-Marine said:


> Please... chances are that look could be last nights beer and chili


Yep. That's why you should be careful of what you eat and drink before you meet your new boss...


----------



## Denton

Maol9 said:


> Forward Combat Communications


Ah, OK. 31K is now the MOS for military working dog handler. I was a handler in the 80's.

I hate it when they change the MOS codes.


----------



## Operator6

Military training may help a person and then again it may not. Depends on the person and the situation. 

Last year we took a couple marines deep sea fishing and it was brutal hot......triple digit heat index. 

They were scared to take a dip in the Gulf. I understand that though, they were from Ohio and we were 25 miles out and we had reeled in a couple of trigger fish bit in half by most likely a Tiger shark. One actually tried to talk me out of it.......he was scared to death ! 

Just one incident, certainly not indicative of the entire military. 

Ooh Rah !!!


----------



## RedLion

I totally agree with "embracing the suck." I would add that being in the military can show you your limits and also show you that you can push thess limits with perseverance. I do not believe that most non-veterans ever truly find their personal limits as we are a lazy species as a whole.


----------



## SGT E

John Galt said:


> A bit more exciting than standing in line at WalMart.


Wait a damned minute....I'm a Vet and live in Kentucky....And the guy behind me was shot while we were standing in line at Wal Mart once! Pretty damned exciting if you ask me! (His wifes purse pistol went off while she was digging for gum and shot him in the arse)


----------



## rice paddy daddy

Denton said:


> Ah, OK. 31K is now the MOS for military working dog handler. I was a handler in the 80's.
> 
> I hate it when they change the MOS codes.


11B will always be 11B. If that tradition ever dies, then I know this country has changed to Liberal Lollypop Land.


----------



## csi-tech

Operator6 said:


> Military training may help a person and then again it may not. Depends on the person and the situation.
> 
> Last year we took a couple marines deep sea fishing and it was brutal hot......triple digit heat index.
> 
> They were scared to take a dip in the Gulf. I understand that though, they were from Ohio and we were 25 miles out and we had reeled in a couple of trigger fish bit in half by most likely a Tiger shark. One actually tried to talk me out of it.......he was scared to death !
> 
> Just one incident, certainly not indicative of the entire military.
> 
> Ooh Rah !!!


I used to fish off of the carrier on Sundays. Many were the times I would reel in half of a permit, snapper, bonita, bonefish etc. I don't blame those Marines one damned bit. Sharks have sharp, bitey teeth. You don't live long in the military by being stupid.


----------



## Operator6

csi-tech said:


> I used to fish off of the carrier on Sundays. Many were the times I would reel in half of a permit, snapper, bonita, bonefish etc. I don't blame those Marines one damned bit. Sharks have sharp, bitey teeth. You don't live long in the military by being stupid.


I don't blame those Marines either but they showed their fear that day.

It left me contemplating what those two would've been like if we had lost the boat and ended up in the water not by our choice. 
When you get onto a boat and go out into any body of water, always be prepared and know that there is a possibility that you'll end up in that water.

Most likely they would've calmed down after a few minutes but, I'm not sure of that.

I've seen some guys who you'd think wouldn't be afraid of things but they are ! Spiders,snakes, deep water with sharks, flying, Etc. Most people have a hang up.


----------



## Smitty901

Operator6 said:


> Military training may help a person and then again it may not. Depends on the person and the situation.
> 
> Last year we took a couple marines deep sea fishing and it was brutal hot......triple digit heat index.
> 
> They were scared to take a dip in the Gulf. I understand that though, they were from Ohio and we were 25 miles out and we had reeled in a couple of trigger fish bit in half by most likely a Tiger shark. One actually tried to talk me out of it.......he was scared to death !
> 
> Just one incident, certainly not indicative of the entire military.
> 
> Ooh Rah !!!


 Had you given them reason enough to do it fear or not betting they would have done it. That is the difference .


----------



## NotTooProudToHide

From an outsider looking in I'd say the biggest thing you get out of the military is the discipline. Like others said its the "embrace the suck" mentality. I do think you can get this from other sources and some people are born with natural discipline as part of their personality. You also do get specialized survival training although some jobs get more than others do. I don't think veterans are magically better qualified for survival situations though just because they where in the military but I think the right person whom is a vet would thrive rather than just survive if that makes sense. I guess what my ramble is that it depends on the person and the situation.


----------



## dsdmmat

Coastie dad said:


> Confirmed kills with MILES gear, I assume...


When I was a private in the 7th ID during a Division Exercize I "killed" 37 escaped POWs with my M60D off my helicopter. I had it slung over my shoulder with a Huey seatbelt. 200 round belt of 7.62 blanks just making the pig sing. My Platoon leader stated in a platoon formation later that day that I would never earn a Nobel peace prize if I continued to "recapture" dead prisoners. Later on in my career as we were getting ready to go into Bosnia with the IFOR, I had to do a media Exercize. It ended with me saying, put down the camera and lady I only have two uses for the press and one of them is target practice. I was told by my Battalion Commander I was never allowed to talk to the press, not theirs or ours.

I have mellowed out just a bit since then ( I still don't like the press). LMAO


----------



## Operator6

Smitty901 said:


> Had you given them reason enough to do it fear or not betting they would have done it. That is the difference .


I guess if I set the boat on fire or sunk it.......yeah, they probably would've went swimming...... Lol !!!

My point is that Military or not, people have fears and limits that the military doesn't always explore. Not everyone in the Military is rough and tough.


----------



## A Watchman

Operator6 said:


> I guess if I set the boat on fire or sunk it.......yeah, they probably would've went swimming...... Lol !!!
> 
> My point is that Military or not, people have fears and limits that the military doesn't always explore. Not everyone in the Military is rough and tough.


And ....... some are gayrods!


----------



## Smitty901

Operator6 said:


> I guess if I set the boat on fire or sunk it.......yeah, they probably would've went swimming...... Lol !!!
> 
> My point is that Military or not, people have fears and limits that the military doesn't always explore. Not everyone in the Military is rough and tough.


 Or had some one else been in harms way.


----------



## Operator6

Smitty901 said:


> Or had some one else been in harms way.


Do they teach you how to swim in the Marines ?

I get in all types of water from the middle of the Gulf of Mexico to the swamps and the rivers. Day or night, let's go.

Most people will not get into the water at night. I only know a handful of people that will and we all grew up in it.

Kudos to those who trained that skill(military) from not such an early age.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> Do they teach you how to swim in the Marines ?
> 
> I get in all types of water from the middle of the Gulf of Mexico to the swamps and the rivers. Day or night, let's go.
> 
> Most people will not get into the water at night. I only know a handful of people that will and we all grew up in it.
> 
> Kudos to those who trained that skill(military) from not such an early age.


Yes, they do.


----------



## Operator6

What do you torque the Jesus nut to ? @Denton


----------



## preponadime

Denton said:


> Yes, they do.


And it ain't the easy way


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> What do you torque the Jesus nut to ? @Denton


This is a Hawk and not a Huey, and I am avionics, not grease monkey.


----------



## Denton

How come my iPhone doesn't let me add smilies?


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> How come my iPhone doesn't let me add smilies?


It will but you have to click on the smiles to the right of the type box or click advanced.

You can't add smiles from the iPhone pop up keyboard.


----------



## Coastie dad

So....did you SHOW the jarheads it was safe by diving in yourself, or.....


----------



## Coastie dad

P.S.

675 ft lbs. If I recall. Haven't been a uh1 mech since like, 82.


----------



## Operator6

Coastie dad said:


> So....did you SHOW the jarheads it was safe by diving in yourself, or.....


Yeah man, everyone went swimming except the Ooh Rah's from Ohio. They both expressed concerns about sharks and being off shore. I didn't force the issue. They were nice guys and respectful.

These guys looked fresh off the farm, sunburnt and pink like a cooked shrimp. The white boat and the reflection off the water will burn you up.

We had been out about 12 hrs and had been slamming beer since before we hit the farewell bouy.

You know there are about 30+ M60 tanks on th bottom of the Gulf of Mexico ? I've fished them before.....


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> Yeah man, everyone went swimming except the Ooh Rah's from Ohio. They both expressed concerns about sharks and being off shore. I didn't force the issue. They were nice guys and respectful.
> 
> These guys looked fresh off the farm, sunburnt and pink like a cooked shrimp. The white boat and the reflection off the water will burn you up.
> 
> We had been out about 12 hrs and had been slamming beer since before we hit the farewell bouy.
> 
> You know there are about 30+ M60 tanks on th bottom of the Gulf of Mexico ? I've fished them before.....


I've dived them. Snapper love them!


----------



## Coastie dad

Damn. That explains it.

I asked to take an m60 home, and they told me to go jump in the lake.....


----------



## New guy 101

Denton said:


> @Maol9 Re-forager? Do you mean REFORGER?


yes...it was an excercise in germany....simulated kills....I assume...since the Russians never burst across the wall....


----------



## SGT E

New guy 101 said:


> yes...it was an excercise in germany....simulated kills....I assume...since the Russians never burst across the wall....


Fulda Gap that is....Spent a lot of hot and freezing nights looking at that border..almost 9 years worth LOL!.....With Deterrents of course! (Read the fine print on the Projectile) That's a Corporal and a Private getting their nuts Ionized! No simulation required....









https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulda_Gap


----------



## Smitty901

Operator6 said:


> Do they teach you how to swim in the Marines ?
> 
> I get in all types of water from the middle of the Gulf of Mexico to the swamps and the rivers. Day or night, let's go.
> 
> Most people will not get into the water at night. I only know a handful of people that will and we all grew up in it.
> 
> Kudos to those who trained that skill(military) from not such an early age.


 My point is many of the Soldiers I served with were scared. There were times they had dam good reason to be. Many times Soldiers had doubts about their personal ability to make the grade. But unlike most they could not just quit and walk away. Despite their fear, despite their own question about their ability. They did what had to be done at time. Often not even fully remembering it.
Ever sit through an AAR? many times soldiers do not fully understand the actions they took.


----------



## Operator6

Smitty901 said:


> My point is many of the Soldiers I served with were scared. There were times they had dam good reason to be. Many times Soldiers had doubts about their personal ability to make the grade. But unlike most they could not just quit and walk away. Despite their fear, despite their own question about their ability. They did what had to be done at time. Often not even fully remembering it.
> Ever sit through an AAR? many times soldiers do not fully understand the actions they took.


The people I hangout with and train with do not quit and just walk away. Qualities of a man, not just a soldier. Personally I don't require anyone yelling a me for my motivation.

Kudos to those that are not quitters, military or not.


----------



## Smitty901

I would suggest that there is no way on this earth you can understand what an 18 month deployment in a hostile fire zone is like. Then to turn around and do a few more.
Yelling does not motivate soldiers. The yelling is part of learning to block things out to push on no madder what is going on around you. Lot different than a few bud's at some weekend bad boy camp. That is why only those that have walked the walk will understand. 
Have to watch what I post here. Just another day at work pull the bodies out. Soldiers we had just shared a meal with 20 minutes before.
What must it have been like for my LT to hear of a Marine chopper down, 1 SGT killed trying to save them. Then minutes latter find out it was his younger brother. No most will never understand it.
Only yelling this day was for help and medics.


----------



## Denton

No need in explaining the military experience. 
I don't even think it is possible.


----------



## New guy 101

To try to judge Civilian versus Military at the individual level is not going to solve anything. People who are naturally self sufficient, self motivating, who are suck it up and get it done people, tend to gravitate towards like minded people...So you always have the counter presented to the enduring hardship and suck it up statement I made earlier.

Just as you will find those in the military or former who were not suck it up and get it done people. Remember our service pulls from the civilian crowd so we have diversity as well. But in the experience of having been in situations that required a little more, or a lot more, fortitude and drive, the Military has the highest percentages.

Some of you guys need to stop thinking that by how I, or anyone else, have answered the OP's question is some detractor of you as a person. I never said that the Military had the only folks who have learned to embrace the suck...I just said its one of the factors and percentage wise it has more people who have been forced to learn to embrace the suck.

And one or two of you have a chip on your shoulder that's visible. You might want to cover that up. It's what starts as a decent conversation but turns into something else, where pride of service runs head long into some personnel issue, that leads to what liberals refer to as "hurtful words"....


----------



## Operator6

Smitty901 said:


> I would suggest that there is no way on this earth you can understand what an 18 month deployment in a hostile fire zone is like. Then to turn around and do a few more.
> Yelling does not motivate soldiers. The yelling is part of learning to block things out to push on no madder what is going on around you. Lot different than a few bud's at some weekend bad boy camp. That is why only those that have walked the walk will understand.
> Have to watch what I post here. Just another day at work pull the bodies out. Soldiers we had just shared a meal with 20 minutes before.
> What must it have been like for my LT to hear of a Marine chopper down, 1 SGT killed trying to save them. Then minutes latter find out it was his younger brother. No most will never understand it.
> Only yelling this day was for help and medics.
> 
> View attachment 20761


I would agree if everyone in the military went to a combat zone, but they don't.

The ones who do go to a combat zone, there is a percentage that doesn't do well living back in civilian life. PTSD issues,, etc.

So, military doesn't equal combat experience necessarily.


----------



## bigwheel

Well having examined the available evidence..I am thinking it is the vaccines the guvment gives the military folks which makes them get PTSD as opposed to the blood and gore thing. I would sue the guvment if I was yall.


----------



## dsdmmat

bigwheel said:


> Well having examined the available evidence..I am thinking it is the vaccines the guvment gives the military folks which makes them get PTSD as opposed to the blood and gore thing. I would sue the guvment if I was yall.


I thought all them shots they gave me was supposed to make me super human... Damn you had to go burst my bubble.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> I would agree if everyone in the military went to a combat zone, but they don't.
> 
> The ones who do go to a combat zone, there is a percentage that doesn't do well living back in civilian life. PTSD issues,, etc.
> 
> So, military doesn't equal combat experience necessarily.


Not even referring to combat; military training pushes the trainees beyond what a civilian job would. Right out of basic, a soldier has learned to suck it up; something he might not have learned.

That's all I am saying.


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> Not even referring to combat; military training pushes the trainees beyond what a civilian job would. Right out of basic, a soldier has learned to suck it up; something he might not have learned.
> 
> That's all I am saying.


No doubt that basic would be more difficult than most civilian jobs, but it only lasts a few weeks and I know some real sissies that have completed basic.

I'm certainly not saying that military training is a negative but it's certainly not always very helpful.

For instance, a retired Air Force veteran was just advised to buy a 10/22 rifle to get some experience with a rifle. He said he received very little firearms training. Of course there is more to the military than firearms but then it becomes more like a civilian job.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> No doubt that basic would be more difficult than most civilian jobs, but it only lasts a few weeks and I know some real sissies that have completed basic.
> 
> I'm certainly not saying that military training is a negative but it's certainly not always very helpful.
> 
> For instance, a retired Air Force veteran was just advised to buy a 10/22 rifle to get some experience with a rifle. He said he received very little firearms training. Of course there is more to the military than firearms but then it becomes more like a civilian job.


The difference is my last stint was with the Wild Blue Yonder bunch, and I was throwing BS flags on the play in my mind.

A military man can tell you about both sides. Someone who has never served can only assume or go on hearsay.

The eight weeks of basic, for example. It only lasts "a few weeks," according to you, but which one of us know first hand about those few weeks?

Not here to explain it to you, nor am I here to listen to a civilian tell me what the training was worth.

I think the OP question has been answered. This is a side order that isn't going anywhere.


----------



## Two Seven One

Operator6 said:


> For instance, a retired Air Force veteran was just advised to buy a 10/22 rifle to get some experience with a rifle. He said he received very little firearms training. Of course there is more to the military than firearms but then it becomes more like a civilian job.


Haha, I'm pretty sure you are talking about me based on my 10/22 thread. Also I'm not retired. I served from 92 to 97. I served as an Operations Resource Manager and Communications Security Officer. I did so in support of Operation Provide Comfort II twice and I promise you it wasn't a civilian job. The attention to detail and the mental toll it took to perform my duties to perfection while under stress and fatigue far exceeds many civilian jobs. I'm not here to brag about that even though it may seem so. My point is don't discount a veteran just because they had limited firearms training.

At the same time I do recognize that there are many civilians that can operate under stress and as some say "the suck'. The point is don't label anyone until they are tested. You never know if that guy that lives next door and is a banker has what it takes to get through. Hell he may be some guy that served in the Air Force as a finance officer but that doesn't mean he may be worthless.


----------



## Operator6

You guys are right. Military trumps civilians every time and their training is the best no matter what the situation because they can embrace the suck like nobody's business.

I was wrong, thanks for giving me great examples of how a civilian just doesn't know what it's like......now I understand as best a civilian can.


----------



## Two Seven One

Operator6 said:


> You guys are right. Military trumps civilians every time and their training is the best no matter what the situation because they can embrace the suck like nobody's business.
> 
> I was wrong, thanks for giving me great examples of how a civilian just doesn't know what it's like......now I understand as best a civilian can.


Having reviewed most posts in this thread I don't think anyone has said what you claim above. Enough with the defeatist attitude. It really does not look good on you.


----------



## Operator6

Two Seven One said:


> Having reviewed most posts in this thread I don't think anyone has said what you claim above. Enough with the defeatist attitude. It really does not look good on you.


Read them all, not most.

Denton just discounted my opinion because I've never been in the military........my knowledge is just hearsay or assumption.

It's not like I don't have any friends that are retired and current military, no they are like unicorns and basic training is top secret info.

So put your badge up and quit policing the Internet and maybe study how to break down an Ar, clean it and maybe even fire it.


----------



## Two Seven One

Operator6 said:


> Read them all, not most.
> 
> Denton just discounted my opinion because I've never been in the military........my knowledge is just hearsay or assumption.
> 
> It's not like I don't have any friends that are retired and current military, no they are like unicorns and basic training is top secret info.
> 
> So put your badge up and quit policing the Internet and maybe study how to break down an Ar, clean it and maybe even fire it.


Oh, poor you that Denton discounted your opinion. Some person on an Internet forum you will most likely never meet in real life. In the few days I've posted here I've had people challenge me, discount my thoughts and even accuse me of not telling the truth. You can either deal with, ignore it, or post a rebuttal. I'm not policing anything. But please stop acting like everyone who posts views on advantages of being a veteran is against you and think that those that have not served are worthless.

I've stated in I think i almost every post I've made in this thread that there are people that are not veterans that are more than competent and can deal with the the same level of stress many veterans are used to.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> You guys are right. Military trumps civilians every time and their training is the best no matter what the situation because they can embrace the suck like nobody's business.
> 
> I was wrong, thanks for giving me great examples of how a civilian just doesn't know what it's like......now I understand as best a civilian can.


What, again, was the OP's question? To whom was it directed? Was the question, "What do you civilians think makes the military people different than civilians?" IF it was, I am sorry.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> Read them all, not most.
> 
> Denton just discounted my opinion because I've never been in the military........my knowledge is just hearsay or assumption.
> 
> It's not like I don't have any friends that are retired and current military, no they are like unicorns and basic training is top secret info.
> 
> So put your badge up and quit policing the Internet and maybe study how to break down an Ar, clean it and maybe even fire it.


I discounted your opinion that is based on assumptions or hearsay.

I can tell you about BT, but that doesn't mean you experienced it. I can tell you about what I did in the military (to an extent), but again, that doesn't mean you experienced it.

I have to ask; why did you feel the need to jump in a thread started by someone who wanted to know what military people think? Seriously, did you feel your manhood was being questioned?


----------



## Denton

Two Seven One said:


> Oh, poor you that Denton discounted your opinion some person on an Internet forum you will most likely never meet in real life. In the few days I've posted here I've had people challenge me, discount my thoughts and even accuse me of not telling the truth. You can either deal with, ignore it, or post a rebuttal. I'm not policing anything. But please stop acting like everyone who posts views on advantages of being a veteran is against you and think that those that have not served are worthless.


You claimed the AF rifles were worn out. That puts you on my short list, pal.

Still, brother, you served. Even though you blamed your lousy shooting on the Air Force's rifles! :vs_smirk:


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> I discounted your opinion that is based on assumptions or hearsay.
> 
> I can tell you about BT, but that doesn't mean you experienced it. I can tell you about what I did in the military (to an extent), but again, that doesn't mean you experienced it.
> 
> I have to ask; why did you feel the need to jump in a thread started by someone who wanted to know what military people think? Seriously, did you feel your manhood was being questioned?


You and the other military vets here are under the false assumption that basic military training goes above and beyond what some civilians accomplish physically WITHOUT being driven to accomplish it.

Basic training is designed to be " accomplished ". It's a brief 8 weeks of " suck "

For a couch potato punk it may be a real accomplishment but for a grown man, it's not that much " suck "


----------



## bigwheel

Well not quite sure the symptoms of PTSD..if it involves having an itchy trigger finger and being nervous all the time..pretty sure all old cops have it too. Now they was not allowed to smoke agent orange or get out of date and idiotic vaccines from idiots. Not sure what it up with that. We are still functional and really mad on this end.


----------



## Operator6

Now, if you want to claim special operations training. Now you're talking special individuals. 

I would agree that SF training would be beneficial in a SHTF scenario. Tactics aren't forgotten typically but the ability to physically fight is.......embrace the suck doesn't last forever. 

The tactical training is the biggest advantage of former military. As far as being tough, the toughest guys I know are MMA fighters and Rugby players.


----------



## bigwheel

Well since you are hung up in my twit filter I cant see much about what you have to say on any topic. But occasionally it do behoove a person to see what you have to say. It seems to be close to zero. What did you say on this one for example?


----------



## SAR-1L

I feel conversations like this are about as useful as a debate between who is hotter scarlet johansson or kate beckinsale,
in which the answer doesn't matter cause realistically your chance to shack up with either hovers around 0%.

The truth is civilian vs military ='s different, not better.

One thing members of the military have over me is the experience of a team environment, on the flip side
being a civilian with my unique skill set, there is a reason members of the military pay me to teach them my skills.

That reason is the government cut corners with their training and their lives.


----------



## Coastie dad

I'm confused.....

If the air force never shootez they guns, howz they guns gets wored out?:vs_lol:


----------



## SGT E

SAR-1L said:


> I feel conversations like this are about as useful as a debate between who is hotter scarlet johansson or kate beckinsale,
> in which the answer doesn't matter cause realistically your chance to shack up with either hovers around 0%.
> 
> The truth is civilian vs military ='s different, not better.
> 
> One thing members of the military have over me is the experience of a team environment, on the flip side
> being a civilian with my unique skill set, there is a reason members of the military pay me to teach them my skills.
> 
> That reason is the government cut corners with their training and their lives.


Scarlett! ! Kate is looking pretty old these days...


----------



## A Watchman

SAR-1L said:


> *I feel conversations like this are about as useful as a debate between who is hotter scarlet johansson or kate beckinsale*,
> in which the answer doesn't matter cause realistically your chance to shack up with either hovers around 0%.


I'll translate for you southerners ......SAR is saying .... "about as useless as the tits on a boar hog".


----------



## rice paddy daddy

I prefer to associate with veterans. Combat or not. War or peace. Vietnam, Iraq, Germany, or South Carolina. Doesn't matter. Neither does the former branch or rank.
We are all members of the same tribe.
Civilians are of a different tribe. Perhaps no better nor worse, but definitely different.


----------



## Coastie dad

Birds of a feather, the old folks said...


----------



## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> You guys are right. Military trumps civilians every time and their training is the best no matter what the situation because they can embrace the suck like nobody's business.
> 
> I was wrong, thanks for giving me great examples of how a civilian just doesn't know what it's like......now I understand as best a civilian can.


I guess instead of covering that chip up you decided to just go ahead and rip that coat off and expose it for all to see....Well, at least it makes it easier for folks to identify and avoid you.

Just saying....


----------



## New guy 101

Coastie dad said:


> I'm confused.....
> 
> If the air force never shootez they guns, howz they guns gets wored out?:vs_lol:


Not being Airforce, I can only surmise it's from the same way Army Rifles get worn out... By field stripping it a bazillion times to clean ever speck of it, often using bore brushes like a toilet plunger on a hopelessly stopped up commode.

All military... WAY WAY WAY over clean their weapons. They will show looseness and practically fall apart well before the bore start to see real wear. AR's are particularly vulnerable to this. Why? becasue people are idiots and being in the Military doesn't exempt folks from acting stupidly...

Now of course for OP-6's reading pleasure I will have to add that it's probably just the residual ignorance of their former civilian life that causes it.

Those without a chip know how I meant this....


----------



## Operator6

New guy 101 said:


> I guess instead of covering that chip up you decided to just go ahead and rip that coat off and expose it for all to see....Well, at least it makes it easier for folks to identify and avoid you.
> 
> Just saying....


I don't have a problem with that. I could pick civilians with no military experience that can out perform former and current military.

Just because a guy went through BASIC training then sat at a desk for the next 4 years like some military do...... doesn't make him necessarily better than a civilian in a SHTF scenario.

Straight from a former Air Force soldier.........his words not mine. Words of your brother in the military. 
https://thewisesloth.com/2013/10/25/how-and-why-military-basic-training-brainnwashes-recruits/

If that hurts feelings then so be it.

I sincerely hope you have a great evening.

That is all.


----------



## Coastie dad

Someone sounds like the kid who didn't get picked for the team.

Not naming names or pointing fingers.

Waiting for the guilty dog to bark.....


----------



## SAR-1L

Coastie dad said:


> Someone sounds like the kid who didn't get picked for the team.


I don't mind barking if I can help bridge a gap here. ( aka I don't mind making myself look silly if I can help two groups see eye to eye. )

If some of the civilians here have any of the same experiences that I have,
then they have run across military, LEO's, etc with an attitude that civilians are of the same value as welfare recipients
cause they didn't serve. I find it ironic that I train professionals now, where I was once scoffed at by them cause I wasn't
attached to a government agency.

So please understand discussions like this, or at least in the fashion they have been going are divisive not unifying.
I don't think anyone likes to feel like their contributions and skills are devalued cause they went a different course.
Some of the comments in here do that exactly, make some of your civilian peers feel as if you view them as inferior,
whether you intend it that way or not.

At the end of the day however we are all PEOPLE/human. If there was ever a time in our nation where military and law enforcement
needed civilians as a capable force multiplier, now would be that time. Our Military & LEO community is 1% or less of our nations 
population.

Right now you are essentially being locked in the room with 99 other people and told, keep these people safe, good luck.
It is a morally bankrupt way to operate national security.

Rather that point out the differences, advantages, disadvantages, etc.

Lets all remember we have the same common goal, same desire and will to live, and if you are military extend that brotherhood,
to your fellow civilian willing to go with you shoulder to shoulder, when shit is knee or neck deep.


----------



## Denton

I can help bridge the gap in another way...

The original question posed by the OP:


"If you are a vet; what do you think sets you apart, in a survival situation, from those who have not been in the military?"

If you are a vet, you can answer the question. If you are not, don't guess at what the hell others know! I don't care how many times you wTched Full Metal Jacket or how many stories your get friend told you; you don't know what you don't know. You are talking theory to those who know fact. 

How's that for clarification?


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> I can help bridge the gap in another way...
> 
> The original question posed by the OP:
> 
> "If you are a vet; what do you think sets you apart, in a survival situation, from those who have not been in the military?"
> 
> If you are a vet, you can answer the question. If you are not, don't guess at what the hell others know! I don't care how many times you wTched Full Metal Jacket or how many stories your get friend told you; you don't know what you don't know. You are talking theory to those who know fact.
> 
> How's that for clarification?


Why should I take your word as fact when I have family members that tell me any half assed punk can complete basic training ?

That's a legit question.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> I don't have a problem with that. I could pick civilians with no military experience that can out perform former and current military.
> 
> Just because a guy went through BASIC training then sat at a desk for the next 4 years like some military do...... doesn't make him necessarily better than a civilian in a SHTF scenario.
> 
> Straight from a former Air Force soldier.........his words not mine. Words of your brother in the military.
> https://thewisesloth.com/2013/10/25/how-and-why-military-basic-training-brainnwashes-recruits/
> 
> If that hurts feelings then so be it.
> 
> I sincerely hope you have a great evening.
> 
> That is all.


You still beating your fingers about things in which you have no experience? Again, someone told you something. How precious.


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> You still beating your fingers about things in which you have no experience? Again, someone told you something. How precious.


Not just anyone, that link is to a blog written by a former member of the Air Force.

Should I not believe him ? Surely he wouldn't lie, he's former military.

The answer is obvious here.

Being former military doesn't guarantee a valid and proper response in an emergency situation. Could it be of value ? I never said it wasn't !


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> Why should I take your word as fact when I have family members that tell me any half assed punk can complete basic training ?
> 
> That's a legit question.


Did your little feelings get hurt that the OP asked a question about military people and it makes you feel inadequate?

The question wasn't, "hey, you who have no personal experience, what do you think makes vets different in their minds?"

You just can't help it, can you? You just got to be the authority on everything gun or military, don't you?

Telling military men what the military did for or to them makes you look more stupid than knowledgable, in case you haven't thought of that.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> Not just anyone, that link is to a blog written by a former member of the Air Force.
> 
> Should I not believe him ? Surely he wouldn't lie, he's former military.


I am former army and Air Force.

The point is this- why do you feel so driven to say anything at all? You don't freaking know a thing but what you heard. Those of us who stood up and took the oath know.


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> Did your little feelings get hurt that the OP asked a question about military people and it makes you feel inadequate?
> 
> The question wasn't, "hey, you who have no personal experience, what do you think makes vets different in their minds?"
> 
> You just can't help it, can you? You just got to be the authority on everything gun or military, don't you?
> 
> Telling military men what the military did for or to them makes you look more stupid than knowledgable, in case you haven't thought of that.


Im certainly not an authority on the military and its obvious others here aren't either based off their grandiose fantasies of elite basic training graduates that push paper for 4 years and are automatically a war hero that can out perform a civilian.

I'm old enough to not listen to that nonsense and believe it.


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> I am former army and Air Force.
> 
> The point is this- why do you feel so driven to say anything at all? You don't freaking know a thing but what you heard. Those of us who stood up and took the oath know.


It's the military, not a secret society. Lol !

I notice you will not address the blog I posted a link to. Please explain what that former Air Force soldier had to say.

I guess I've said enough, I'll let you guys all pat each other on the back now.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> Im certainly not an authority on the military and its obvious others here aren't either based off their grandiose fantasies of elite basic training graduates that push paper for 4 years and are automatically a war hero that can out perform a civilian.
> 
> I'm old enough to not listen to that nonsense and believe it.


You should be old enough to keep quiet when the question is not directed to you and your experience is not in the topic. In doing so, you don't sound mature at all.


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> You should be old enough to keep quiet when the question is not directed to you and your experience is not in the topic. In doing so, you don't sound mature at all.


I've trained with former military.......their all not so tough. Some can't keep up, in fact most can't or just simply do not have the dedication nor the desire. That's fact not fiction.

So being former military is not an all inclusive qualifier. Fact......


----------



## Operator6

I have hired former military guys and they are generally hard workers. The only problem that I've found is the lack of decision making skills. They are fine if you give them explicit directions. Let a problem pop up and they are alone with no one there to direct or manage them, we had problems. 

Rice Paddy Daddy is right, they are typically of a different tribe. 

One guy explained it to me. He said that in the military everything they did was dictated. They had no choice in the matter. He said that he didn't doesn't do well when he has to make decisions. I assume he didn't move up in rank with that issue. 

I'm on no way attempting to say that ALL soldiers are this way, certainly they aren't. But to make a blanket statement that just because a person is former military, that indicates they would react well in an emergency situation is just simply false.

And the best you have is......" We embrace the suck ". Lmao, that's hilarious.


----------



## Farva

I did time in two services. 

I always wondered why the dudes in Normandy/Tarawa got out of the landing craft when everyone in front of them got killed.

I learned the reason in the Military. It's pretty simple.

I'm not going to be the pussy standing there crying saying "I can't do it" when everyone else did. I'm not going to be the only guy standing because I was too pussy to get off of the track or helicopter.

I am a slacker and a scared ass pussy. Always will be. Some of that shit scared the living shit out of me. The only thing I got going is, I'm going too. Screw it. I'd rather be dead than left behind. Once the wheels are off of the ground, the lines are thrown off, the back door opens, I'm committed.

That's helped me in my civilian life also. Both in my profession and in actual emergencies. 

The disaster has already happened. We gotta go. I'm going now.

That has served me well for a long time.

On another note, I thought the only folks with Blue Ropes had mos's that started with 11 or had started their career as an 11 something. Had to be outta Fort Benning, at least in my time. Congrats for the dude who's wife got a blue rope. I woulda figured it would have gotten more media play.


----------



## Coastie dad

Yup...I heard the barking.

Another thread shot to hell.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> I've trained with former military.......their all not so tough. Some can't keep up, in fact most can't or just simply do not have the dedication nor the desire. That's fact not fiction.
> 
> So being former military is not an all inclusive qualifier. Fact......


So, you got close to vets. Again, how precious is that?

Again, what makes you think you are qualified to throw your two cents into this?

You were too selfish to serve even two years, but it bugs the crap out of you that others did. This being the case, you can do nothing but demean the experience you didn't have.

Marines who were prudent enough not to jump into the water for absolutely no reason, but you were big and brave enough to do so.

LOOK AT ME!!!!

You did some sort of training with vets, and you did better.

LOOK AT ME!!!!!!!!!!

Again, why are you piping up? Was the question, "If you are a pompous, LOOK AT ME!!! who never joined the military, what do you think they think makes them different?"


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> So, you got close to vets. Again, how precious is that?
> 
> Again, what makes you think you are qualified to throw your two cents into this?
> 
> You were too selfish to serve even two years, but it bugs the crap out of you that others did. This being the case, you can do nothing but demean the experience you didn't have.
> 
> Marines who were prudent enough not to jump into the water for absolutely no reason, but you were big and brave enough to do so.
> 
> LOOK AT ME!!!!
> 
> You did some sort of training with vets, and you did better.
> 
> LOOK AT ME!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Again, why are you piping up? Was the question, "If you are a pompous, LOOK AT ME!!! who never joined the military, what do you think they think makes them different?"


It doesn't bother me that we have a military that people voluntarily join.........where did I say that it did ? Never even insinuated it. I just don't put faith in a man or women to react properly just because they are former military, which means they went through basic training and then maybe peeled spuds for the remainder or changed tires.

We all had a reason to get into the water, it was hot, they were hot and complaining about it, maybe they were just more scared than hot I guess. Tough but scared ? Maybe the beer and the sun threw them off so they blamed it on sharks, that sounds tough......

I don't think it's selfish to not serve in the military. It's voluntary and I chose not to volunteer. A big factor in that was retired military telling me not to join. Go figure.......

I can give perspective without answering the OP's primary question. I have valid experience with former military and what you and others are claiming differs from my first hand experience with SOME former and current military.

I think you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of.......".Look at me I'm special.....I'm former military, I can embrace the suck " sounds elitist and grandiose to say the least.


----------



## SAR-1L

Denton, I know your dispute is between you and Operator6 and that is cool.

What I can't stand behind though is telling people who is,
and who isn't qualified to share perspective, and I say that with the utmost respect to you.

While I don't agree with the article Operator6 post, lets not forget that just cause you didn't
wear the uniform doesn't mean you aren't serving your country one way or another, sometimes beside those soldiers.

Private Military Contractors, some of the guys training soldiers, and even the family's of military men and women,
aid in the mission, but are still considered civilians, not soldiers.

But you can't tell me that their opinions don't matter cause they aren't a soldier.
Sure their experiences may not be the same as the soldier, but they offer insight from a valuable perspective as well.

You can't tell me when my buddy came back from Iraq with PTSD and I watched his wife leave him, and his life fall apart, 
that it didn't tear me up when I tried to help him. You don't have to be a soldier to understand the struggle.

*When we start making the right to speak in threads exclusive to a label, we miss opportunity to broaden our 
knowledge, and promote understanding to help each other work together.*

Not all knowledge is acquired through experience, some knowledge is observed.
I don't need to be a doctor to tell you about a broken wrist, same as it doesn't take
a soldier to point out the great qualities of our brave men and women.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> It doesn't bother me that we have a military that people voluntarily join.........where did I say that it did ? Never even insinuated it. I never said you said that. Reread what I said; or are you simply attempting to confuse what I said? I just don't put faith in a man or women to react properly just because they are former military, which means they went through basic training and then maybe peeled spuds for the remainder or changed tires. Even the guy who peeled potatoes has what you do not - first hand knowledge of the topic.
> 
> I don't think it's selfish to not serve in the military. It's voluntary and I chose not to volunteer. Yup, it is volunteer. You volunteered not to volunteer. You already stated you didn't join because you wanted to make money. Remember saying that? A big factor in that was retired military telling me not to join. Go figure....... Whatever makes you feel good.
> 
> I can give perspective without answering the OP's primary question. I have valid experience with former military and what you and others are claiming differs from my first hand experience with SOME former and current military. You have no experience. Use whatever wording you wish; you still sound really stupid while trying to continue to say, LOOK AT ME!!!
> 
> I think you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of.......".Look at me I'm special.....I'm former military, I can embrace the suck " sounds elitist and grandiose to say the least. OF course you'd think that. Again, what was the question posed by the OP? I'm not pointing out I served, I am pointing out you did not, therefore have no personal experience, yet you can't help but insert your ego into this thread.


See inserted responses in red... never learned how to do the quote thing.


----------



## Denton

SAR-1L said:


> Denton, I know your dispute is between you and Operator6 and that is cool.
> 
> What I can't stand behind though is telling people who is,
> and who isn't qualified to share perspective, and I say that with the utmost respect to you.
> 
> While I don't agree with the article Operator6 post, lets not forget that just cause you didn't
> wear the uniform doesn't mean you aren't serving your country one way or another, sometimes beside those soldiers.
> 
> Private Military Contractors, some of the guys training soldiers, and even the family's of military men and women,
> aid in the mission, but are still considered civilians, not soldiers.
> 
> But you can't tell me that their opinions don't matter cause they aren't a soldier.
> Sure their experiences may not be the same as the soldier, but they offer insight from a valuable perspective as well.
> 
> You can't tell me when my buddy came back from Iraq with PTSD and I watched his wife leave him, and his life fall apart,
> that it didn't tear me up when I tried to help him. You don't have to be a soldier to understand the struggle.
> 
> *When we start making the right to speak in threads exclusive to a label, we miss opportunity to broaden our
> knowledge, and promote understanding to help each other work together.*
> 
> Not all knowledge is acquired through experience, some knowledge is observed.
> I don't need to be a doctor to tell you about a broken wrist, same as it doesn't take
> a soldier to point out the great qualities of our brave men and women.


Sar, I hear what you are saying, but you are also missing the point.

For example, you observed your buddy's life falling apart due to his service, but you didn't observe or share that experience.

Again, the OP's question:



> If you are a vet; what do you think sets you apart, in a survival situation, from those who have not been in the military?


Tell me how any of what you said has a thing to do with the OP's question?

You're getting lost in the weeds.


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> See inserted responses in red... never learned how to do the quote thing.


"You were too selfish to serve even two years, but it bugs the crap out of you that others did"

^^^^^ that's where you accused me of being " bugged " that others have served.

It's a persons choice to serve or not. I don't judge a person negatively because they didn't serve in the military.

It's obvious by your comments that you do.

I do not need to have been in the military to observe the actions of some FORMER military personnel. My perspective is that some are in fact better prepared because of their military background and others would have a hard time field stripping a firearm or completing a 2 mile fun run.


----------



## SAR-1L

Denton said:


> Sar, I hear what you are saying, but you are also missing the point.
> 
> Tell me how any of what you said has a thing to do with the OP's question?


You are cool Denton, no beef here buddy, I gotcha.

I don't believe the OP ever took into consideration the rest of us who support the mission when he asked this question.
That or he simplified the question, so it wasn't so wordy. I also have this stubborn belief in my head that I like to hear 
a variety of input from different people as it all has value.

I respect what you are saying, no civilian can give a soldiers testimony.

I also feel that works the same way for soldiers when they have the civilian mostly trained out of them.
They just can't give testimony anymore on behalf of the civilian who has never served.

When we are talking about two components, military vs. civilian difference, you need input from both
sides to get true perspective. Other wise you just get the soldiers opinions on the value of a civilian,
vs the first hand testimony from the civilian to his value and qualities.

If we left it up to the soldier only to comment on both sides, then the picture described would essentially paint the
civilian to look like a pussified worthless pile of helpless sh*t.


----------



## Operator6

I also find it ironic that the current commander in chief of our military is a community organizer from Chicago. Talk about a kick in the nuts. There ya go.


The original poster also wanted FACTS........" Embrace the suck " is not facts. 


Dentons just mad because I live farther south than he does. He's almost a Yankee to me. Lol !


----------



## preponadime

If you haven't been there you wouldn't understand you might think you do but you don't. Until you spit right in the devil's eye and say go back to hell today is not the day. You'll never understand what it means to "embrace the suck"


----------



## Operator6

preponadime said:


> If you haven't been there you wouldn't understand you might think you do but you don't. Until you spit right in the devil's eye and say go back to hell today is not the day. You'll never understand what it means to "embrace the suck"


So now boot camp is the devils eye ? Come on man......not everyone who has been in the military is a war hero.


----------



## Denton

SAR-1L said:


> You are cool Denton, no beef here buddy, I gotcha.
> 
> I don't believe the OP ever took into consideration the rest of us who support the mission when he asked this question.
> That or he simplified the question, so it wasn't so wordy. I also have this stubborn belief in my head that I like to hear
> a variety of input from different people as it all has value.
> 
> I respect what you are saying, no civilian can give a soldiers testimony.
> 
> I also feel that works the same way for soldiers when they have the civilian mostly trained out of them.
> They just can't give testimony anymore on behalf of the civilian who has never served.
> 
> When we are talking about two components, military vs. civilian difference, you need input from both
> sides to get true perspective. Other wise you just get the soldiers opinions on the value of a civilian,
> vs the first hand testimony from the civilian to his value and qualities.
> 
> If we left it up to the soldier only to comment on both sides, then the picture described would essentially paint the
> civilian to look like a pussified worthless pile of helpless sh*t.


Who are these civilians who are training soldiers to be soldiers? I'm not getting this.

Who is a soldier who has never been a civilian? Why do you think that the question posed by the OP, or at least the answers given by those of us who DID serve, makes civilians look as you described? I don't believe any of us even gave an answer that belittled civilians, so why the need to defend not serving?

The "civilian" isn't trained out of them. Again, I can speak of this from a first hand point of view. I'll tell you this; there are those who joined because they had nothing else. They didn't do it out of duty and honor, but because there was nothing else for them. They lacked direction and personal identity that comes from a strong family upbringing. These people not only can't assimilate easily into civilian life but are more likely to have "PTSD" and substance abuse issues. That, however, doesn't mean that I don't understand being a civilian just because I have served.


----------



## Operator6

Denton said:


> Who are these civilians who are training soldiers to be soldiers? I'm not getting this.
> 
> Who is a soldier who has never been a civilian? Why do you think that the question posed by the OP, or at least the answers given by those of us who DID serve, makes civilians look as you described? I don't believe any of us even gave an answer that belittled civilians, so why the need to defend not serving?
> 
> The "civilian" isn't trained out of them. Again, I can speak of this from a first hand point of view. I'll tell you this; there are those who joined because they had nothing else. They didn't do it out of duty and honor, but because there was nothing else for them. They lacked direction and personal identity that comes from a strong family upbringing. These people not only can't assimilate easily into civilian life but are more likely to have "PTSD" and substance abuse issues. That, however, doesn't mean that I don't understand being a civilian just because I have served.


I have a good friend that's former military and he trains military personnel in evasive driving maneuvers. He's a government contractor.


----------



## preponadime

Operator6 said:


> So now boot camp is the devils eye ? Come on man......not everyone who has been in the military is a war hero.


You just don't get it, do you? You wouldn't know a war hero if he jumped up and kicked you in the ass


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> I have a good friend that's former military and he trains military personnel in evasive driving maneuvers. He's a government contractor.


That doesn't make him a soldier any more than teaching kids how to swim makes the instructor a seal. Still I find that interesting and good. Someone might know how to handle the heck out of a car, and it is good that the soldier or airman who will take that training into hazard's way learn it.

Might your good friend work at Hurlburt?


----------



## Operator6

preponadime said:


> You just don't get it, do you? You wouldn't know a war hero if he jumped up and kicked you in the ass


Sure I get it. I get that we are simply talking about the benefit of being former military in the even if an emergency. 
I contend it could possibly help and then again it may not. Having been in the military just doesn't prove readiness.



Denton said:


> That doesn't make him a soldier any more than teaching kids how to swim makes the instructor a seal. Still I find that interesting and good. Someone might know how to handle the heck out of a car, and it is good that the soldier or airman who will take that training into hazard's way learn it.
> 
> Might your good friend work at Hurlburt?


Sure he's a former soldier, he's retired. No, he lives in Virginia. He buys 1,000 cars and plays crash up derby with them.

He gets a check from his retirement, check from working for a government contracting co, and owns a small business.

He's very talented individual, I'm grateful for the info passed along on occasion.


----------



## Denton

Operator6 said:


> Sure I get it. I get that we are simply talking about the benefit of being former military in the even if an emergency.
> I contend it could possibly help and then again it may not. Having been in the military just doesn't prove readiness.
> 
> Sure he's a former soldier, he's retired. No, he lives in Virginia. He buys 1,000 cars and plays crash up derby with them.
> 
> He gets a check from his retirement, check from working for a government contracting co, and owns a small business.
> 
> He's very talented individual, I'm grateful for the info passed along on occasion.


And, what was the question asked, again? I'm sorry; you think it was what is a civilian's perception of what a vet carries with him that makes him different.

As far as your friend, he is a civilian, but is a vet. Good for him. A VET Who has a good civilian job teaching servicemen how to drive.


----------



## Denton

Now, if you'll excuse me, this old man needs sleep.

Good night.


----------



## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> Why should I take your word as fact when I have family members that tell me any half assed punk can complete basic training ?
> 
> That's a legit question.


No one expects you to take our word for anything. When and were did that family member serve?


----------



## SittingElf

Operator6 said:


> I also find it ironic that the current commander in chief of our military is a community organizer from Chicago. Talk about a kick in the nuts. There ya go.
> 
> The original poster also wanted FACTS........" Embrace the suck " is not facts.
> 
> Dentons just mad because I live farther south than he does. He's almost a Yankee to me. Lol !


Definition of "Yankee":
Anyone living North of I-10 .... Y'all! :tango_face_grin:


----------



## rice paddy daddy

SittingElf said:


> Definition of "Yankee":
> Anyone living North of I-10 .... Y'all! :tango_face_grin:


Or SOUTH of Florida State Road 40. :tango_face_wink:


----------



## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> I have hired former military guys and they are generally hard workers. The only problem that I've found is the lack of decision making skills. They are fine if you give them explicit directions. Let a problem pop up and they are alone with no one there to direct or manage them, we had problems.
> 
> Rice Paddy Daddy is right, they are typically of a different tribe.
> 
> One guy explained it to me. He said that in the military everything they did was dictated. They had no choice in the matter. He said that he didn't doesn't do well when he has to make decisions. I assume he didn't move up in rank with that issue.
> 
> I'm on no way attempting to say that ALL soldiers are this way, certainly they aren't. But to make a blanket statement that just because a person is former military, that indicates they would react well in an emergency situation is just simply false.
> 
> And the best you have is......" We embrace the suck ". Lmao, that's hilarious.


I won't say that this isn't true for someone whose sole experience is basic and then desk work. But that's like seeing a red head and assuming all red heads are the same


Operator6 said:


> It doesn't bother me that we have a military that people voluntarily join.........where did I say that it did ? Never even insinuated it. I just don't put faith in a man or women to react properly just because they are former military, which means they went through basic training and then maybe peeled spuds for the remainder or changed tires.
> 
> We all had a reason to get into the water, it was hot, they were hot and complaining about it, maybe they were just more scared than hot I guess. Tough but scared ? Maybe the beer and the sun threw them off so they blamed it on sharks, that sounds tough......
> 
> I don't think it's selfish to not serve in the military. It's voluntary and I chose not to volunteer. A big factor in that was retired military telling me not to join. Go figure.......
> 
> I can give perspective without answering the OP's primary question. I have valid experience with former military and what you and others are claiming differs from my first hand experience with SOME former and current military.
> 
> I think you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of.......".Look at me I'm special.....I'm former military, I can embrace the suck " sounds elitist and grandiose to say the least.


No one asked you to put faith in anything...in fact a commented on another thread that you shouldn't assume anything about prior military.

We told the OP what we believe.....you came in telling us how screwed up our thinking was...

I for one don't care if you have served or not....I for one think its probably best you didn't, cause then you wouldn't be the man you are today....you would be someone like m118 espousing if you haven't been in the military your a fool and doomed to die....

Neither of which I enjoy reading post on.


----------



## Operator6

If the military does have an advantage over a civilian you guys have certainly failed to express why. 

" Embrace the suck " <---- that's a joke. To suggest only individuals that have military training will react differently or appropriately because you think the BASIC military training made you tough, is a joke or you simply didn't naturally have the fortitude that the men I know have from birth. 

I personally didn't need anyone to make me a man, it comes natural, it comes with a proper southern upbringing.

You guys beating your chest because you completed BASIC training is laughable to say the least.


----------



## SAR-1L

Denton said:


> Who are these civilians who are training soldiers to be soldiers? I'm not getting this.


Come on Denton, you are a smart guy, you know what I mean by civilians training military.

We both know the government continues to outsource training just like they have outsourced on post 
security positions to civilians before. Please don't make me start citing sources for all statements 
we both know are true.

P.S. whoever posted this article makes me cringe SEAL Survival Guide: Fighting Tips | Military.com

I can't believe they are suggesting punches and jabs. You boxer break your fist good luck with the recoil on your rifle or pistol.



Denton said:


> Who is a soldier who has never been a civilian?


Not what I said. I stated the perspective is *not the same as a civilian who has never served.*



Denton said:


> Why do you think that the question posed by the OP, or at least the answers given by those of us who DID serve, makes civilians look as you described?


- All of these are far worse than the civilian versions: long lines at Walmart, . . . the drive-thru closed early, . . . no twitter reception in this area, . . . //Dwight55
- Civilians are still trying to find out if they are wearing the proper camo pattern for this particular brand of conflict. // Dwight55
- Because we have been trained to live and continue on. // Denton
- Not all but many have been tested. Few in our society except some LEO and Fire fighters have been. // Smitty901
- Yes, A1, and a +++++ to the idea of the suck factor being something most civies have no concept of or about. // Dwight55
- The things that make former military personnel adept in such situations is just experience. // csi-tech
- vets may not have had specific training for those situations, but they are adaptable, willing to train, and can be made experts in short order. // SittingElf
- Yes there are some idiot military folks... but they are fewer then the civilians, I will take the military guys/girls all day long // Maine-Marine

Then you got guys like M118LR essentially trying to tell you if you aren't a sniper then your skill is of zero value.

My copy paste fingers got a little too tired to continue to keep giving example after example of how civilians are viewed as inferior to military.
The definition of difference is to state the quality of one object that the other does not possess. Obviously a soldier has to be trained and equipped
to do their job.



Ragnarok said:


> in a survival situation // *Give me statistics and information*


But training to be a soldier generally by no means prepares you to survive outside of your job role or your unit. 
Not one of the post above was a statistic or data driven response but rather as military perspective of a civilian.



Denton said:


> The "civilian" isn't trained out of them.


You are saying your military experience hasn't changed your perspectives?

There is a reason that members of the military need to "transition" to civilian life.
Cause soldiers have to re-adapt themselves to understanding the civilian world again.


----------



## Operator6

If the training is so " on point " then why do veterans have a dramatically higher suicide rate than civilians ?

Is that a failure of military training or a failure of the former military personnel to accept that training ? 

It seems that SOME former military are having issues with mental health and they blame that on things experienced while in the service. 

How can some say that former military is of benefit to an emergency situation then blame military experiences because they have a " episode " if they go to a fireworks display ?

Explain that, if you can. 

My point is you can't be so inclusive to say that military experience will be a benefit, when that's clearly not the case. In fact the opposite may be true, the military training and experiences may prevent an individual from being able to even function. 



Until I get an answer for that, there's really nothing left for me to say.


----------



## SGG

Operator6 said:


> If the training is so " on point " then why do veterans have a dramatically higher suicide rate than civilians ?
> 
> Is that a failure of military training or a failure of the former military personnel to accept that training ?
> 
> It seems that SOME former military are having issues with mental health and they blame that on things experienced while in the service.
> 
> How can some say that former military is of benefit to an emergency situation then blame military experiences because they have a " episode " if they go to a fireworks display ?
> 
> Explain that, if you can.
> 
> My point is you can't be so inclusive to say that military experience will be a benefit, when that's clearly not the case. In fact the opposite may be true, the military training and experiences may prevent an individual from being able to even function.
> 
> Until I get an answer for that, there's really nothing left for me to say.


There was nothing for you to say from the very beginning. Reread the OP


----------



## Operator6

SGG said:


> There was nothing for you to say from the very beginning. Reread the OP


Threads are not closed to discussion. I have valid questions and if they were easily answered you wouldn't be posting ^^^^^^^ that.

That's a good tactic though.........silence the critics. Lol !

The OP wanted FACTS........" Embrace the suck " Is not facts.

Do you have any FACTS ?

Here is a comparison of life in the military vs civilian life........seems like the military seems to think you guys have it good. An attempt to retain the enlisted, but never the less factually correct. 
Have a good read......
http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/military-vs-civilian-benefits-overview.html


----------



## Operator6

New guy 101 said:


> No one expects you to take our word for anything. When and were did that family member serve?


My father served in the Army during Vietnam. He did 2 years here in the states and two in Germany. He got out and married then enlisted in the Air Force for two. 
Just about all my uncles served in either the Air Force or the Army. All 7 of them on my fathers side and 6 uncles on my mothers side.

I have two friends that I grew up with that joined the Army. One is SF retired and is now a government contractor and another is retired 82nd. Both saw extensive combat in the 1 & 2nd Gulf Wars. We are like family, one lives out of town in Virginia.

My brother in law is a former Ranger that served several tours in the Middle East. We see each other and train on a regular basis.

He's in our group and I value his Military experience. He would be the first to tell you that not all military is worth their salt. That's just the reality of it.


----------



## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> My father served in the Army during Vietnam. He did 2 years here in the states and two in Germany. He got out and married then enlisted in the Air Force for two.
> Just about all my uncles served in either the Air Force or the Army. All 7 of them on my fathers side and 6 uncles on my mothers side.
> 
> I have two friends that I grew up with that joined the Army. One is SF retired and is now a government contractor and another is retired 82nd. Both saw extensive combat in the 1 & 2nd Gulf Wars. We are like family, one lives out of town in Virginia.
> 
> My brother in law is a former Ranger that served several tours in the Middle East. We see each other and train on a regular basis.
> 
> He's in our group and I value his Military experience. He would be the first to tell you that not all military is worth their salt. That's just the reality of it.


Well it sounds like your surrounded by some good folks. And I will be the last to say that ALL military are worth their salt... but I will say the percentage of those who are is much higher than those who didn't serve....

I'm not saying you or anyone else here who didn't serve are not....my answer has nothing to do with you...or them.


----------



## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> If the training is so " on point " then why do veterans have a dramatically higher suicide rate than civilians ?
> 
> Is that a failure of military training or a failure of the former military personnel to accept that training ?
> 
> It seems that SOME former military are having issues with mental health and they blame that on things experienced while in the service.
> 
> How can some say that former military is of benefit to an emergency situation then blame military experiences because they have a " episode " if they go to a fireworks display ?
> 
> Explain that, if you can.
> 
> My point is you can't be so inclusive to say that military experience will be a benefit, when that's clearly not the case. In fact the opposite may be true, the military training and experiences may prevent an individual from being able to even function.
> 
> Until I get an answer for that, there's really nothing left for me to say.


Now is were you just stepped into the realm of "You have no clue!!!"

As Sar pointed out, there is a thing called transitioning into Civilian life...It's actually a difficult thing to do and some don't cope well with it... THere is also this thing called survivors guilt, You would have had to have been in that situation to understand how it feels (Not saying you were or were not ever there) You can't explain those things to people...like expressing a color to a blind man....or sound to a deaf person.

I know people who suffer depression and other issues, but get htem back over seas and they are johnny on the spot!....It's the absence of it that causes some problems.

And then there are those who have real issues from their experience...and you slighting everyone of them as a group puts you at the bottom of the shit sucking fish in the sea.

I'd bet your buddies would stomp the shit out you if you talked down to them the way your doing here. I know I damn sure would.

I can understand anger at anyone who thinks just being in the service makes you a better person than everyone else.... I can understand not accepting that everyone in the military is Joe survival expert, or super sniper.... But you assuming people are weak because of issues they got in conditions you have only dreamed about or seen in a friggin Movie is about the tipping point for me.

I could almost empathize with some of your thoughts...I could almost see your point of view as I read some of the posts....Now...Your back to being nothing but the never was, hating the have beens. Maybe you have some closet hatred at one or more of your survival buddies....maybe your wife says comments to make you think she counts on them being around for their knowledge...I don't know...nor do I give a shit.

You sir, are a shit bag for saying something like that.

You see my episode would be knocking someone who said that flat on their ass....and you and folks like you would say "He's got issues".

My episode would be ducking and looking at were the sound came from, and you would say...he's got issues....Cause you don't know what the sound of an incoming mortar round sounds like, or the crack of a bullet past your head, or really anything that sounds like something different than your XBox 360 Call of Duty doesn't provide for you.

THose who have had to duck and dive, never forget it and tend to respond that way...it's actually a good thing, unless your a know-not witnessing it from the cheap seats.


----------



## Operator6

New guy 101 said:


> Now is were you just stepped into the realm of "You have no clue!!!"
> 
> As Sar pointed out, there is a thing called transitioning into Civilian life...It's actually a difficult thing to do and some don't cope well with it... THere is also this thing called survivors guilt, You would have had to have been in that situation to understand how it feels (Not saying you were or were not ever there) You can't explain those things to people...like expressing a color to a blind man....or sound to a deaf person.
> 
> I know people who suffer depression and other issues, but get htem back over seas and they are johnny on the spot!....It's the absence of it that causes some problems.
> 
> And then there are those who have real issues from their experience...and you slighting everyone of them as a group puts you at the bottom of the shit sucking fish in the sea.
> 
> I'd bet your buddies would stomp the shit out you if you talked down to them the way your doing here. I know I damn sure would.
> 
> I can understand anger at anyone who thinks just being in the service makes you a better person than everyone else.... I can understand not accepting that everyone in the military is Joe survival expert, or super sniper.... But you assuming people are weak because of issues they got in conditions you have only dreamed about or seen in a friggin Movie is about the tipping point for me.
> 
> I could almost empathize with some of your thoughts...I could almost see your point of view as I read some of the posts....Now...Your back to being nothing but the never was, hating the have beens. Maybe you have some closet hatred at one or more of your survival buddies....maybe your wife says comments to make you think she counts on them being around for their knowledge...I don't know...nor do I give a shit.
> 
> You sir, are a shit bag for saying something like that.


Why are you angry ? Because I brought up a legit concern about former and current military ? The military itself is concerned, as well it should be.

If My tax money is going toward paying for a PTSD disability checks then I would think you would acknowledge my right to talk about the problems PTSD can cause a person during an emergency/stressful situation. The PTSD can cause negative reactions to stress of all types.

Your emotions are controlling you.


----------



## SGG

Why are you still in this thread operator


----------



## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> Why are you angry ? Because I brought up a legit concern about former and current military ? The military itself is concerned, as well it should be.
> 
> If My tax money is going toward paying for a PTSD disability check then I would think you would acknowledge my right to talk about the problems PTSD can cause a person during an emergency/stressful situation. The PTSD can cause negative reactions to stress of all types.


You can talk about whatever you want sunshine....because me and those like me have kept your ability to do so in place for the last 2 1/2 centuries..... So drive on sweet pea....drive on.


----------



## Operator6

New guy 101 said:


> You can talk about whatever you want sunshine....because me and those like me have kept your ability to do so in place for the last 2 1/2 centuries..... So drive on sweet pea....drive on.


And people like me paid for it. You're no better of an American than I just because you joined the military. It takes both civilians and enlisted to have success.

Didn't you learn about team work in the military ? I certainly have.......


----------



## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> And people like me paid for it. You're no better of an American than I just because you joined the military. It takes both civilians and enlisted to have success.
> 
> Didn't you learn about team work in the military ? I certainly have.......


No, I'm a better American than you because I value everyones contributions...and I do not think I'm better than anyone else...except you...and only because I see you have a disdain for service members....and you show it in every comment you make. I am not better than anyone else....just you.


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## Operator6

New guy 101 said:


> No, I'm a better American than you because I value everyones contributions...and I do not think I'm better than anyone else...except you...and only because I see you have a disdain for service members....and you show it in every comment you make. I am not better than anyone else....just you.


All I've said is " military experience doesn't guarantee a person will react appropriately in an emergency situation "

You digressed that into......" You hate the military "

You are a fine example of someone who can't control his emotions. You would be an easy enemy to defeat.

Embrace that suck........


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## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> All I've said is " military experience doesn't guarantee a person will react appropriately in an emergency situation "
> 
> You digressed that into......" You hate the military "
> 
> You are a fine example of someone who can't control his emotions. You would be an easy enemy to defeat.
> 
> Embrace that suck........


Oh, I'm sorry...did I leave the ALL CAPs on or something? I'm not angry pumkin...just said your a shit bag...I can say that calmly and mean it... But it's quite funning that you adopt a screen name modeld after military "Operators" and use the number 6 as an innuendo to the Team, and then to see the disdain you have towards the service...
Yep....certainly a wanna be mad because he never did or could...and now lashes out at the star bellied sneetches...

I didn't say you hate the military...I said you have disdain for them...a disrespect for them...


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## New guy 101

There is no since arguing with you about this...I can't make you see or understand anything the military has given to me...just like you can't make me understand how it feels to have $1 Million in my bank account....

Neither of us will ever know what it feels like to be the other so lets just end it there.


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## Operator6

New guy 101 said:


> Oh, I'm sorry...did I leave the ALL CAPs on or something? I'm not angry pumkin...just said your a shit bag...I can say that calmly and mean it... But it's quite funning that you adopt a screen name modeld after military "Operators" and use the number 6 as an innuendo to the Team, and then to see the disdain you have towards the service...
> Yep....certainly a wanna be mad because he never did or could...and now lashes out at the star bellied sneetches...


You state that while calling names and thoughts of violence toward me that you've typed.

I think it's clear you can't have a civilized conversation.

I've certainly feel I have expressed a civilians perspective and first hand experiences with military and civilians in both the training arena and in a business setting as having been an employer of former military.

So, I'll give you the last word. I'm not participating in the thread any longer.

I wish you well in all your endeavors.


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## Coastie dad

Feeding his rhetoric in hopes he explodes is only fueling his ego. Ignore him, and let him think he accomplished something.
He's intentionally getting you guys riled up to make himself look superior. 
Screw him. He's entitled to his opinion, but he's not entitled to an audience.


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## SGG

Operator6 said:


> I've certainly feel I have expressed a civilians perspective.


This right here is the main problem. The OP did not ask for a civilian's perspective


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## Operator6

SGG said:


> This right here is the main problem. The OP did not ask for a civilian's perspective


It's posted in an open forum and I have relative information. Silence the doubter ?

The OP also wanted facts....... Embrace the suck is not facts.

Military doesn't mean war time battlefield experience.

You can have the last word........good night.


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## Operator6

Coastie dad said:


> Feeding his rhetoric in hopes he explodes is only fueling his ego. Ignore him, and let him think he accomplished something.
> He's intentionally getting you guys riled up to make himself look superior.
> Screw him. He's entitled to his opinion, but he's not entitled to an audience.


Actually the former military are the only ones claiming to be superior. I'm simply saying that former military experience may or may not help you in an emergency situation.

Go back and read the thread, show me where I've been all inclusive one way or the other. Each person is an individual.

You can have the last word, I'll respond to any questions just once from each inquirer.


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## New guy 101

Operator6 said:


> You state that while calling names and thoughts of violence toward me that you've typed.
> 
> I think it's clear you can't have a civilized conversation.
> 
> I've certainly feel I have expressed a civilians perspective and first hand experiences with military and civilians in both the training arena and in a business setting as having been an employer of former military.
> 
> So, I'll give you the last word. I'm not participating in the thread any longer.
> 
> I wish you well in all your endeavors.





Operator6 said:


> It's posted in an open forum and I have relative information. Silence the doubter ?
> 
> The OP also wanted facts....... Embrace the suck is not facts.
> 
> Military doesn't mean war time battlefield experience.
> 
> You can have the last word........good night.





Operator6 said:


> Actually the former military are the only ones claiming to be superior. I'm simply saying that former military experience may or may not help you in an emergency situation.
> 
> Go back and read the thread, show me where I've been all inclusive one way or the other. Each person is an individual.
> 
> You can have the last word.


when are you really gonna shut the hell up and give someone the last word.... pumpkin???


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## Denton

Operator6 said:


> It's posted in an open forum and I have relative information. Silence the doubter ?
> 
> The OP also wanted facts....... Embrace the suck is not facts.
> 
> Military doesn't mean war time battlefield experience.
> 
> You can have the last word........good night.


The OP wanted to know what vets thought; your ego can't allow you to shut the hell up even if you have nothing to say.

As this thread has been hijacked by those with no first hand knowledge and only want to argue with those who do, this vet is locking the thread for the old of all.


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