# Concealed Carry Weapons Are Very Heavy



## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

It's 10:53 pm, you had to work over a few hours, but you are finally on your way home. When you talked to your wife earlier, she asked if it wasn't too late, could you stop and pick some milk on the way home. You pull into the lot of a Quckie Mart. There is no one in there except for the pregnant twenty-something year old clerk. While you are trying to find the 2% a guy comes in with a mask and a gun demanding all the money from the clerk, he doesn't seem to notice you are even there. You have your concealed weapon on you. 
You should: remain quiet, the guy takes the money and leaves, (after all you are not LEO), remain quiet, the guy takes the money, but shoots the clerk in the face before he leaves. Shoot him, he drops to the floor, you kick his gun away, the clerk calls the police. Shoot him, but he shoots the clerk in the face and you spend the rest of your life wondering if you was the blame. What would you do? I do not know what I would do.
Yes, concealed weapons are very heavy, and of course I am not talking of their weight. It is the responsibility and the chances you take if you ever have to use one. What if you miss, and you hit another person?, what if you don't miss and you still hit another person? What if you do nothing? What if you do something then later people claim it was you trying to be a hero, that caused the event to become worse?
I don't know the answers to these questions, not sure anyone really does, but I am sure that LEO will get a lot more benefit of doubt than some private citizen if something ever happens. I know we all want to do the right thing if something ever happens, but what will be the right thing? And will others agree with your decision? Yeah, I think concealed weapons are very heavy


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

It's a good question,and obviously every situation is different. I didn't get my CCW to "play cop", I got it defend myself and my family. When to use lethal force is always a judgment call. 

In general, if I believe that the person's life is in imminent danger, AND I think I can do something about it without causing a greater loss of life, especially my own or someone in my family, I'll probably act. If not, I'll make like a good witness and keep my weapon concealed unless needed further.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

What state are you in and do you have a CCW?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

If he points the gun at anyone, I point mine at him and fire.
Plain and simple.

In the right circumstances(not likely), he never sees it coming.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Think I would have to side with Egyas on this. My theory is do what is most prudent at the time to preserve life and health of all the involved parties. Seeing guns pointed at innocent folks gives me the impression that aint conducive to the victims good health and tends to give me a real itchy trigger finger but I aint dumb enough to draw down on some scumbag who is already unholstered and ready for action unless he is actively firing or perhaps right on the verge. Maybe tag him in the back of the head on the way out..or follow him outside and blast him in the parking lot after shouting freeze mofo in a threatening tone of voice. Once he is down I will start looking for the driver of the getaway car and light him or them up too. Least think I would. I just rejoined an outfit which gives legal help for them who get caught up in bad old imaginary scenarios. Hope it aint never needed.

CLEAT


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Diver said:


> What state are you in and do you have a CCW?


 I live in WV, but I think the scenario could be portrayed in any state, and it was with the assumption the person had his CCW, I guess I should have made that clearer?


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

If the bullet doesn't enter from the front its murder.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> If the bullet doesn't enter from the front its murder.


You are a crazy person.
Nothing in any law states this.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

I would probably have my gun out and ready, but I am not doing anything as long as the gun is pointed at the clerk and he is not shooting.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> If the bullet doesn't enter from the front its murder.


You been watching too much PMSNBC reporting on Ferguson, MO or maybe too many old Cowboy movies. If a scum bag needs killing back or front both work.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> It's 10:53 pm, you had to work over a few hours, but you are finally on your way home. When you talked to your wife earlier, she asked if it wasn't too late, could you stop and pick some milk on the way home. You pull into the lot of a Quckie Mart. There is no one in there except for the pregnant twenty-something year old clerk. While you are trying to find the 2% a guy comes in with a mask and a gun demanding all the money from the clerk, he doesn't seem to notice you are even there. You have your concealed weapon on you.
> You should: remain quiet, the guy takes the money and leaves, (after all you are not LEO), remain quiet, the guy takes the money, but shoots the clerk in the face before he leaves. Shoot him, he drops to the floor, you kick his gun away, the clerk calls the police. Shoot him, but he shoots the clerk in the face and you spend the rest of your life wondering if you was the blame. What would you do? I do not know what I would do.
> Yes, concealed weapons are very heavy, and of course I am not talking of their weight. It is the responsibility and the chances you take if you ever have to use one. What if you miss, and you hit another person?, what if you don't miss and you still hit another person? What if you do nothing? What if you do something then later people claim it was you trying to be a hero, that caused the event to become worse?
> I don't know the answers to these questions, not sure anyone really does, but I am sure that LEO will get a lot more benefit of doubt than some private citizen if something ever happens. I know we all want to do the right thing if something ever happens, but what will be the right thing? And will others agree with your decision? Yeah, I think concealed weapons are very heavy


Try answering your questions without the gun. I think then your CCW will become lighter.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

HuntingHawk said:


> If the bullet doesn't enter from the front its murder.


 Not sure where you are but that is not a deciding factor here. Only question to be ask were you in danger of bodily harm or death or was anyone else. 
I can not answer to what was proposed. I do know if I can let the bad guy leave no one is hurt. We will let LE track him down someday. The second I feel the first statement is valid he dies. If you can avoid a shooting even a good one best to do so.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> If he points the gun at anyone, I point mine at him and fire.
> Plain and simple.
> 
> In the right circumstances(not likely), he never sees it coming.


Beat me to it.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

If his back is too you make a noise when he turns , double tap. If not and the clerk got killed it would bother me for the rest of my life.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> I live in WV, but I think the scenario could be portrayed in any state, and it was with the assumption the person had his CCW, I guess I should have made that clearer?


There are a number of states where it would be illegal to intervene. The answer of what is legal depends on the state. Since there are also states in which obtaining a CCW is virtually impossible, assuming possession of a CCW cannot be assumed.

The answer is dependent on which state you are in.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> You are a crazy person.
> Nothing in any law states this.


Then you aren't familiar with Florida CCW or castle laws.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> I live in WV, but I think the scenario could be portrayed in any state, and it was with the assumption the person had his CCW, I guess I should have made that clearer?


There are a number of states where it would be illegal to intervene. The answer of what is legal depends on the state. Since there are also states in which obtaining a CCW is virtually impossible, assuming possession of a CCW cannot be assumed.

The answer is dependent on which state you are in.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Florida law simply states if their back is to you they aren't a threat to you.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

HuntingHawk said:


> Florida law simply states if their back is to you they aren't a threat to you.


Does Florida law allow you to defend 3rd parties?


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Yes, but you better be 100% right in your decision. Thug has a toy gun or BB gun was the person's life in jeopardy? I ask a local sheriff about it some years ago & he said to read the victims face. That tells you whether they feel their life is in danger.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Basically the Florida law is set up for example a thug robs you of your wallet. Leaving his back is to you you can't pull out your gun & shoot him as he is no longer a threat to you.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

As a LEO I plan on being the best witness I can be.....until, he makes a furtive movement. If all he wants is money, let him have it and try to get all the info I can. If I believe someone is in imminent danger of harm, well too bad mr. bad guy, hope your insurance is paid up.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

midtnfamilyguy said:


> As a LEO I plan on being the best witness I can be.....until, he makes a furtive movement. If all he wants is money, let him have it and try to get all the info I can. If I believe someone is in imminent danger of harm, well too bad mr. bad guy, hope your insurance is paid up.


Unfortunately most of us are not LEOs and do not enjoy the protection that comes with that status.


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## rjd25 (Nov 27, 2014)

Diver said:


> Unfortunately most of us are not LEOs and do not enjoy the protection that comes with that status.


how is his advice dependent on being a LEO? The same would apply regardless, you can observe and gather information that you can later volunteer at trial.


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## rjd25 (Nov 27, 2014)

I would have to say, in the context of the example given this is what I think I would do.... If he was facing the clerk and I was in the back of the store out of his field of view I would draw and get my sight picture. Not doing so would leave me in a position in which he has already drawn and if he were to turn his attention to me I would be at a tactical disadvantage at that point. Once I drew I would re-assess and see if I felt my life or the clerk's life was in danger. One can make the case that if the clerks life is in danger yours would be by extension making the 3rd party clause moot (the thug wouldn't want to leave a witness after all). You would have to be VERY sure of yourself and your target. This is just what I think I would do in this scenario and isn't advice in any way.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

Diver said:


> Unfortunately most of us are not LEOs and do not enjoy the protection that comes with that status.


This is what I told my wife and 2 daughters when they received their carry permit and all others also. Here in the Great State of Tennessee, we can use force as a police officer or civilian to protect 3rd parties. Actually, civilians have a little more leeway that police.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

rjd25 said:


> how is his advice dependent on being a LEO? The same would apply regardless, you can observe and gather information that you can later volunteer at trial.


Again it depends on the state. He not only was collecting information, but also willing to act when he felt someone was in imminent danger. Depending on the state that may or may not be a legal action for a citizen but it is probably a legal action for a LEO regardless of state.

Furthermore as recent events have shown it is rare that a LEO will be prosecuted. Depending on jurisdiction a shooting under the circumstances described, i.e. danger to another person, not yourself, may or may not result in arrest or trial costing the citizen a fortune to defend himself if his actions are considered mildly suspect.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

midtnfamilyguy said:


> This is what I told my wife and 2 daughters when they received their carry permit and all others also. Here in the Great State of Tennessee, we can use force as a police officer or civilian to protect 3rd parties. Actually, civilians have a little more leeway that police.


That sounds like a terrific legal environment. That is clearly not the legal environment in many other parts of the country, which is why it matters what state we are discussing.


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## OC40 (Sep 16, 2014)

Diver said:


> Unfortunately most of us are not LEOs and do not enjoy the protection that comes with that status.


I must of missed something because that "status" has been tossed in the trash can.

A very simple rule, CCW is there to DEFEND MY FAMILY & MYSELF. Its a crap shoot with today's legal system, if I'm not the one who ends up in a cell for "being the good guy" in this day and age. IF I'm going to pull that trigger its going to be for my kids or wife, at least than they'll know Dad did all he could.

I would also ensure that you look into ccw insurance there are a lot of choices. I highly recommend you consider shot placement when engaging a target to protect a 3rd party. You can still engage a target and yet they may involuntary shot someone else because of your shot.

The point is to deescalate not escalate the situation.


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## TxBorderCop (Nov 19, 2012)

midtnfamilyguy said:


> As a LEO I plan on being the best witness I can be.....until, he makes a furtive movement. If all he wants is money, let him have it and try to get all the info I can. If I believe someone is in imminent danger of harm, well too bad mr. bad guy, hope your insurance is paid up.


I am in full agreement. And if he is enough of a numbnuts, I will film it as best I can with my cell phone camera - then upload the video at the same time to my wife and another LEO buddy of mine.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

rjd25 said:


> how is his advice dependent on being a LEO? The same would apply regardless, you can observe and gather information that you can later volunteer at trial.


Good point. Employment status is supposedly totally irrelevant on the final results in Texas. A cop has no greater or lesser right to use deadly force than any other citizen. In fact cops have it quite a bit worse because they are the only class of folks who face double jeopardy. In the case of a black perp..they not only have to worry about state charges but then have to face Obummer..Eric..Al Sharpton and other commie liberals in Federal Court for civil rights allegations. It starts criminal and then winds up civil. Follow the money. The sleazy lawyers go after the deep pockets of cities..states..etc.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

I conceal carry for one reason and only one reason, to protect myself and my family.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> It's 10:53 pm, you had to work over a few hours, but you are finally on your way home. When you talked to your wife earlier, she asked if it wasn't too late, could you stop and pick some milk on the way home. You pull into the lot of a Quckie Mart. There is no one in there except for the pregnant twenty-something year old clerk. While you are trying to find the 2% a guy comes in with a mask and a gun demanding all the money from the clerk, he doesn't seem to notice you are even there. You have your concealed weapon on you.
> You should: remain quiet, the guy takes the money and leaves, (after all you are not LEO), remain quiet, the guy takes the money, but shoots the clerk in the face before he leaves. Shoot him, he drops to the floor, you kick his gun away, the clerk calls the police. Shoot him, but he shoots the clerk in the face and you spend the rest of your life wondering if you was the blame. What would you do? I do not know what I would do.
> Yes, concealed weapons are very heavy, and of course I am not talking of their weight. It is the responsibility and the chances you take if you ever have to use one. What if you miss, and you hit another person?, what if you don't miss and you still hit another person? What if you do nothing? What if you do something then later people claim it was you trying to be a hero, that caused the event to become worse?
> I don't know the answers to these questions, not sure anyone really does, but I am sure that LEO will get a lot more benefit of doubt than some private citizen if something ever happens. I know we all want to do the right thing if something ever happens, but what will be the right thing? And will others agree with your decision? Yeah, I think concealed weapons are very heavy


Your scenario is a bit unrealistic. A robber will either wait for an empty store, or corral the customers. Unless you are hiding, the robber will bring you into the scenario forcibly, mebbe even rob you too. The choice will not be yours to make. Better to draw and stand by ready to shoot, if he moves towards you then he gets double tapped.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Your scenario is a bit unrealistic. A robber will either wait for an empty store, or corral the customers. Unless you are hiding, the robber will bring you into the scenario forcibly, mebbe even rob you too. The choice will not be yours to make. Better to draw and stand by ready to shoot, if he moves towards you then he gets double tapped.


You may possibly be correct, I have never robbed a store. I never realized thugs perhaps hopped up on pills or whatever, freaked out at what they were doing, would have their plans of robbing a conveniences store so logically thought out, I stand corrected.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

OC40 said:


> I must of missed something because that "status" has been tossed in the trash can.
> 
> A very simple rule, CCW is there to DEFEND MY FAMILY & MYSELF. Its a crap shoot with today's legal system, if I'm not the one who ends up in a cell for "being the good guy" in this day and age. IF I'm going to pull that trigger its going to be for my kids or wife, at least than they'll know Dad did all he could.
> 
> ...


I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing. You say that status has been tossed in the trash can, which sounds like disagreement, then take the position you would not shoot unless yourself or your family is at risk, obviously excluding the clerk in the scenario, which sounds like agreement.

As for CCW, again that varies by state. Stand your ground varies by state. Duty to retreat varies by state. Generally, a LEO can act when witnessing a crime consistent with the protocols for his jurisdiction. Citizens are bound by state level laws that may not provide any legal right to act beyond observation and in a duty to retreat state he is obligated to leave if possible, e.g. back door.

So the range of legal options varies by state and by whether the individual is an LEO, a CCW, or neither.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> Yes, but you better be 100% right in your decision. Thug has a toy gun or BB gun was the person's life in jeopardy? I ask a local sheriff about it some years ago & he said to read the victims face. That tells you whether they feel their life is in danger.


You are confusing two very important things...

If Florida law allows for the defense of a 3rd party from serious bodily injury or death, then you can use deadly force against anyone, front or back, that is threatening the use of unlawful deadly force.
If they are stealing your wallet, you give it to them, and they turn and run away, ONLY THEN are they no longer a threat. Shooting a fleeing person is only justifiable if they are still a threat, and that is often a hard case to prove.
The BB gun scenario is childish.
You will need to completely understand the laws of your state, but in just about every single state that allows deadly force defense, if a displayed weapon is reasonably considered to be real and, if so, poses a clear threat to inflict serious bodily injury or death, then the person using it is considered to be armed and dangerous. This is why stupid kids who point BB guns at cops get killed, and it is justified.
If the weapon is used in a manner intended to convince others that it is real, and a reasonable person would believe it is, then it can be considered real.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

IMO what you have to be careful of is getting into the mindset that the main goal is to "get the bad guy" overriding all other concerns. If you shoot at the bad guy and hit someone standing behind him instead, YOU are wrong. If he is pointing his pistol at a store clerk and you take a shot at him from behind and he shoots the clerk, YOU are wrong. The only caveat to that IMO is if the bad guy states that he intends to kill the clerk and points his pistol at him.

If someone starts to rob a store while I am in there, I am pulling my pistol as quickly as it is safe to do so. I will not wait for him to notice me. On the other hand, I would not be in too big of a hurry to take him down, and I would think very seriously whether I ws going to make the situation worse or not.


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## Murphy (Oct 9, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> If the bullet doesn't enter from the front its murder.


I live in MN

609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.

The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode

In this scenario, there are so many what "ifs".

What if he shot the clerk, noticed I was in the store, wanted no witness and shot me, because I havent drawn my weapon yet.

My first instict would be to shoot to stop the threat as soon as I saw he pulled a gun.

You don't pull a gun unless you are going to use it. And you don't put on a condom unless you're going to F--K!


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Laws are intentionally vague. This allows a measure of discretion for a judge or jury. Hopefully, to impart a measure of common sense.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> If he is pointing his pistol at a store clerk and you take a shot at him from behind and he shoots the clerk, YOU are wrong.


Kindly explain your logic here.
*HE* is actively pointing a pistol at the clerk.
*HE* is actively committing aggravated robbery.
In Texas(YMMV), deadly force is justified to stop aggravated robbery. (the simple presentation of a deadly weapon during a robbery escalates it to aggravated robbery)
If I shoot him, and this causes him to pull the trigger on his pistol, *HE* pulled the trigger on the pistol that *HE* pointed at the clerk.

How am I in the wrong?
(this is not to say I won't feel terrible for a very long time, only to ascertain how I would be criminally responsible in your view)


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> You may possibly be correct, I have never robbed a store. I never realized thugs perhaps hopped up on pills or whatever, freaked out at what they were doing, would have their plans of robbing a conveniences store so logically thought out, I stand corrected.


Assuming the robber is a professional this would very well be the case as he would want to control the space and the people in it. I am thinking your more likely to encounter a pro in a bank or other institution with a larger pay out. Convenience stores are easy and abundant. But, not much return for the risk and therfore, I would think more prone to ametures or druggies that are much more inclined to panick, make mistakes and use violence to cover.
In the end one would never really know until confronted. In either case, better to be armed then not.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Kindly explain your logic here.
> *HE* is actively pointing a pistol at the clerk.
> *HE* is actively committing aggravated robbery.
> In Texas(YMMV), deadly force is justified to stop aggravated robbery. (the simple presentation of a deadly weapon during a robbery escalates it to aggravated robbery)
> ...


Because if he points the pistol at the clerk and tells him to open the cash register, it doesn't mean that his intention is to kill him. IMO if you shoot the crook and it causes him to pull the trigger and shoot the clerk, you are wrong. Perhaps I should have been more clear. If he says he is going to shoot the clerk then all bets are off. If he is just pointing his gun at the clerk, you wait until it isn't pointed directly at the clerk until you shoot him.

The point that I wanted to make is that IMO you need to be careful that other people besides the crook do not get hurt because of your actions. Hope that clears things up a little.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> Because if he points the pistol at the clerk and tells him to open the cash register, it doesn't mean that his intention is to kill him. IMO if you shoot the crook and it causes him to pull the trigger and shoot the clerk, you are wrong. Perhaps I should have been more clear. If he says he is going to shoot the clerk then all bets are off. If he is just pointing his gun at the clerk, you wait until it isn't pointed directly at the clerk until you shoot him.
> 
> The point that I wanted to make is that IMO you need to be careful that other people besides the crook do not get hurt because of your actions. Hope that clears things up a little.


It does a bit, if only to clarify your personal view on this scenario.
However, from a legal perspective, I didn't shoot the clerk even if I caused the robber to.
Again, I'd feel terrible about it, and have to live with that the rest of my life, but I wasn't the one that pointed a loaded gun at the clerk.
Your recommendation to wait until he isn't pointing it at them anymore elicits a scenario where he's just pulled the trigger, and now begins to point it elsewhere.

Like I said in my first post, when he points a deadly weapon at someone else, by all observable perspectives, his intentions are clear. You don't know what he's thinking, even if he verbalizes demands. He made his intentions clear when he used a deadly weapon during the commission of a crime.
To save their life, I will shoot him.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

jimb1972 said:


> I would probably have my gun out and ready, but I am not doing anything as long as the gun is pointed at the clerk and he is not shooting.


The problem here is that if he STARTS shooting, . . . it may be too late for the clerk.

I am no mind reader, . . . not a head shrinker either, . . . so I would have to go with my gut, . . . and my clues. If I get the impression that money will send him on his way and he is not out to hurt someone, . . . he is home free, . . . out the door, . . . and I am a good witness.

OTOH, . . . anything that I perceive that tells me he is going to shoot her, . . . will be inducement enough to pop him up side of his head with 230 grains of nasty, . . . at about 900 or so FPS.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

If I ever found myself in that position, I would probably draw and take the most covered position I can find that puts the girl out of my line of fire. I would then yell "FREEZE." Whatever happens next would be up to the robber, but he would almost certainly take his attention (and his gun) off the woman.

If he spun fast to face me, I would have no choice but to fire, and fire I would. There is little chance he could spin, aim, and hit me before I shoot if I already had a bead on him. In that situation, I would deem this an acceptable risk.

More likely though, he would head for the door, and if he does that, I'm gonna let him go. 

I think this is the most reasonable course of action and would minimize my exposure to legal action.

NOTE: I say, "I would PROBABLY..." because I have never been in that situation and there's no way to know for sure unless and until I am.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

New Jersey people exercising their 2nd Amendment rights

Bearing ArmsRight To Bear Arms Breaks Out In Newark, Two Bad Guys Killed - Bearing Arms


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## turbo6 (Jun 27, 2014)

I'm not about to play cops and robbers. However if turns into a situation where I will be robbed/hurt then I will act accordingly.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

turbo6 said:


> I'm not about to play cops and robbers. However if turns into a situation where I will be robbed/hurt then I will act accordingly.


Agreed. I'm not jumping in unless I'm personally in danger.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

turbo6 said:


> I'm not about to play cops and robbers. However if turns into a situation where I will be robbed/hurt then I will act accordingly.


If you could stand there and possibly watch an unarmed woman and her unborn child get murdered in cold blood while you have the means to prevent it... well, your life, your choices. I'm not wired that way. I would be honor bound to act. "Playing cops and robbers?" Hardly.

"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." - John Stuart Mill, 1867


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

When engaging the Kobayashi Maru, one must quickly decide their course of action and how much risk they are willing to take. It is never easy.


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## redhawk (May 7, 2014)

Moonshinedave, you ask a very valid question. I believe you can run all kinds of scenarios through your mind, but in the end you have to make a split second decision. When all is said and done...you have to make the decision that you can live with...I hope that you (and I) never are faced with that sort of decision...JM2C


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