# Reloading for accuracy



## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Hello all

I just saw a post from someone asking if they should buy 1000 rounds of .223 in 62grain Penetrators or .55 grain PMC ammo (the price differences was nominal)

That was my recollection but the question was stupid as hell and here is why...

From cheaper that dirt.com:

As it pertains to .223 projectiles, several different twists are currently produced. Not all ammo shoots well in all twist ratios. A barrel with a 1x7 Twist tends to be too tight for most lighter, more commonly fired ammunition. Originally designed for the military's use of SS109 (the official NATO name of 5.56mm, or .223), further military testing concluded other twist ratios are actually superior for this steel core bullet. 1x8 Twist is best suited for 69-80 grain bullets. Our Federal .223 69 Grain BTHP Match Gold Medal is some of the best on the market for this twist ratio. 1x9 and 1x10 twist ratios are sort of the "middle of the road" for .223 projectiles, and these are the most common. We suggest our Hornady TAP 55 Grain. On the lighter side of things, a 1x12 boasts excellent accuracy on standard and lighter projectiles in the 40-52 grain range. Older M16 rifles were manufactured with the 1x12 Twist ratio. Our item number ARR-115 offers a conversion upper for your AR that takes less than a minute to install, and the barrel has a desirable 1x12 twist ratio. If you are buying a varmint rifle chambered in .223, chances are it will sport a 1x12 Twist Ratio. Our Federal Premium .223 Remington 40-Gr NBT is perfect for varminting. Last, we have the 1x14 twist ratio. Probably the least accurate ratio unless you are into bullet tumble as opposed to spin unless you are shooting custom loads.

Anyone that has a basic understanding of ballistics will realize that you should always have a basic load that performs the best with the firearm you are using.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Two older A2 styles 20 inch 1 in 12 55gr hit the mark every time if I do my part even out at 550-600 meters. 40 grain not so good past 200 meters.
M4 style 16 inch 1 in 7 55gr works but shot groups are not what they should be and as range increase so does hot group not the best option.
62 gr hits the mark every time out to 600 meters if I do my part.
77gr hits harder but falls off at longer ranges.
For my 16 inch 1 in 7 I try to stock up on 5.56 62gr keeps it simple and works.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

This might help some:

Barrel Twist Rate 1:14" 1:12" 1:9" 1:8" 1:7" or 1:6.5"
Max Bullet Weight 55gr FB	65gr FB	73gr BT	80gr BT	90gr BT VLD

These are suggested maximum bullet weights for the different twist rates in order to to achieve accurate results.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Punching holes in paper and killing something on the other end are two different worlds.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Most of the people buying FMJ military type ammo for their guns have no idea about ballistics. They are just looking for some cheap range ammo and most likely aren't reloading. They are not concerned if they can actually hit their target let alone do any damage. As long as it goes bang their happy.

They have no idea about twist rates, bullet weights etc. I'm sure they are looking at you posts and can't begin to understand what your even talking about.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Chipper said:


> Most of the people buying FMJ military type ammo for their guns have no idea about ballistics. They are just looking for some cheap range ammo and most likely aren't reloading. They are not concerned if they can actually hit their target let alone do any damage. As long as it goes bang their happy.
> 
> They have no idea about twist rates, bullet weights etc. I'm sure they are looking at you posts and can't begin to understand what your even talking about.


well im almost lost, (almost, take note currently I don't shoot)

but from what I get out of this post (for the dumb) rifling, + projectile weight go hand in hand for a accurate shot.. over distance.
RIGHT????????

if I'm correct, then any numb nut should get it, if im incorrect, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS BEAUTIFUL (normally would say god, but political correctness and all jk) CORRECT ME


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

^---- Yeah, that's what I'm gathering from this too. Some rifling twists are better suited to different weights of bullet, but that doesn't mean they're as limited some might think. I know from experience that the 1:7 twist barrel in my SCAR will handle anything from 55gr SP and FMJs to 70gr Barnes TSX (longer than 77gr Serra Matchkings). The groups are better with the heavier bullets, but for training or a "combat round", the 55gr stuff has acceptable accuracy. For a 1:9 twist barrel, anything from 45gr-50gr up to 69gr should stabilize.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

We had not used the 55gr round in years other than burning up stock piles on ranges. The Marines had some around because they were still issuing the A3 and A4's the 20 inch barrels.
Issue has been 62 gr for some time now.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Punching holes in paper and killing something on the other end are two different worlds.


Enough said!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Sorry, my last post said "enough said". I can never say enough...

Different situations apply differently to different people. I live in the woods, thick woods with ravines, hills and valleys. I have multiple winding roads cut on my property and about 2 acres cleared around the house, garage and outbuildings. I don't have many potential shots that reach 200 yards. My longest shot on my land can be easily handled with M4's using 55gr or 62 gr either in a 1:9 or 1:7 weapon. I do not reload at this point. As I've explained before, I buy regularly and have for years. I collect my brass in hopes of reloading one day. Me and mine shoot well enough. 

I've killed animals but as Smitty says; "Punching holes in paper and killing someone ...are two different worlds."

If a band of highly skilled bad people want my stuff, they can and probably will take it... but they might lose a few. I am not prepared to overcome those high level warriors that Uncle Sam has trained. 

If a band of low skilled thugs want to try and take my stuff in a shtf situation. I am ready and able to handle that type of situation. I'm also prepared to hang one of their heads on a pike at the entrance to my property to let others know the welcome wagon exists.

I pray that neither happens.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The concept of matching bullet LENGTH to rifling twist comes from the benchrest crowd. You find out which bullet you will be using and how long it is and using that information calculate the minimum twist that will stabilize it. That way at long ranges the bullet will stay "in line" with the curved path. For those of us that hunt and change bullets there is an easier way. Find the longest bullet that you will shoot in your gun and calculate the twist you want. Shooting bullets shorter than that will "over-stabilize" them. All that means is that they are likely to remain at the angle they are fired at rather than allow the nose of the bullet to follow the curve of the trajectory. Within 300 yards it will make no difference in your group. On the other end of this is the wind. Wind will affect a lighter bullet more than a heavier bullet in the same time exposed to that wind. That is why heavy bullets are used for long range shooting. 

Here is an example of an "over stabilized" bullet:
I own a 358 that is designed to shoot 200 and 250 grain bullets. It has a 1:10 twist (one turn in ten inches). I shoot 158 grain pistol bullets from it at 2508 fps to a five shot group that measures 0.3" center to center. Now if "over stabilizing" a bullet affects your group size then I should be able to put five 250 grain bullets in a smaller group but I haven't yet. (to be fair the average group size for the pistol bullets is 0.33" but the best group I fired was 0.3")


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I agree, most folks are not looking for tack driving ammo. What the heck, in survival mode even 5" at 100yrds is acceptable. jmho


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

I am all about barrel twist rate. Twist rates are very important when it comes to accuracy. I like to shoot long range so prefer to have a faster twist rate and heavier bullet. The heavier and longer bullets have a better BC and stay stable longer at longer ranges. You can also get a higher fps in a shorter barrel with a faster twist rate.. It all just depends on what the shooter is wanting to do. There are SO many variables...


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The rate of twist has less to do with accuracy than the bullet and powder you choose. If 5" groups at 100 yards are good enough for you then once we throw in a brisk wind and a dose of adrenaline you will be missing men at 100 yards. At 200 yards you won't be able to hit a large truck much less a man. 

I don't intend malice but if you are intent on using a gun at least learn to use it effectively. If a guy is holding a member of your party hostage and using him/her as a shield you need to be able to confidently shoot a 2 inch wide target that is about that high too. If you miss you could kill your friend or miss the bad guy. If you don't want to go to that extreme then your target is behind a small hill and just comes up high enough to see you and shoot. Can you hit that 5x3" target in under 1 second? That's all the time you'll have if you know where he is shooting from. Can you shoot while running from one location to another? Can you avoid hitting a member of your group running from one point to another. You need to train like your life depends on it - because it might!


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## vandelescrow (Nov 17, 2012)

I reload .223 55grn for both my AR's, one is a 1:12 the other 1:7. The 1:12 I use for longer range and thus have a high power optic on it, the 1:7 I use for close in tactical matches and such, just a red dot, no magnification. So for me, just reloading one kind of ammo does the job for both guns and I don't have to worry about keeping them separate. Yea I know someone will bring up head space and such but for me, it works, saves on having to purchase different projectiles, possibly powder, keep the spent casings separate and what not. I can grab either weapon, any can of ammo and know the weapon is sighted in with that ammo for it's intended purpose. Remember KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

When I worked up my recipe for a 9mm handgun, I got it spot on, every round was going through the same hole or made the hole slightly larger. This particular gun was impossible to find a recipe for LRN (lead Round Nose) because the rifling in the barrel starts immediately and the projectile has to be seated deeper for that reason (OAL was not with in specs for a 9mm lugger on any documentation or books I read on the subject). When I got my recipe perfected, posted it on that gun manufacturers forums, some wise guy had to ask what was the muzzle velocity. Unless your shooting competition (muzzle velocity and weight of the projectile are calculated into your score) or just want to make the loudest bang on the range, who cares what the muzzle velocity was, did you not hear the accuracy? That is what matters to me. In case your wondering, no they are not in the +P range so that was not a factor in the question being asked. In fact if you do not know about LRN's, you can not go into the +P range because the way the lead melts/seals as it is fired and goes down the barrel.

Little rant, not meant for you guys, just wanted to make a point. Every gun has a preference in ammo and depending on what you want that gun to do, determines what you need. yes the twist rate has a big effect on AR's but there are also other factors. I.E. head space, each gun manufactures tolerances are slightly different. The only way to know for sure what your gun likes the best is shoot different types of ammo. 55grn Remington is not the same as 55grn Lake City.

Like someone said earlier, shooting paper is not the same as shooting someone. Yes on paper it is great to get every shot in as tight a group as possible, a 6 inch grouping on paper sux. But lets face it, if your shooting someone (disclaimer here, self defense and such so I don't get in trouble) a 6 inch grouping, he is still dead. Put your finger in the middle of your chest and measure in any direction 3 inches. That is a 6 inch grouping. Wow, you got allot more wiggle room then you thought. I see to many times where people get hung up on accuracy when it is really not needed. When a shtf situation happens and you have to defend your self, what will be the distance involved between you, and the intruder? That makes a pretty big target. yea I know allot of people still miss but lets face it, they would still miss if they had a GPS guided bullet and are a more danger to them selves.

Please forgive me because on a prepper forum I'm thinking more self defense then hunting, I know hunting is a major prepper necessity, and yes, hunting you want/need that accuracy. Don't want the animal to suffer any more then it has to, and the less you have to chase it down the better.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I work up several loads for each of my guns. It takes time but it is worth it. In the case of a 9mm or any pistol it is more important to be quickly accurate than it is to have the bullet going at peak velocities. By quickly accurate I mean put five or six targets up at different heights and distances apart and see how quickly you can but a bullet in each one. We use five shots and with my 357 I used to be able to "kill" all five targets in under two seconds. I am working back to that now after two back surgeries and eight years of doing nothing to stress my back at all. That is a long time without a gun in your hand and it doesn't come back to you like riding a bike.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

PaulS said:


> The rate of twist has less to do with accuracy than the bullet and powder you choose. If 5" groups at 100 yards are good enough for you then once we throw in a brisk wind and a dose of adrenaline you will be missing men at 100 yards. At 200 yards you won't be able to hit a large truck much less a man.
> 
> I don't intend malice but if you are intent on using a gun at least learn to use it effectively. If a guy is holding a member of your party hostage and using him/her as a shield you need to be able to confidently shoot a 2 inch wide target that is about that high too. If you miss you could kill your friend or miss the bad guy. If you don't want to go to that extreme then your target is behind a small hill and just comes up high enough to see you and shoot. Can you hit that 5x3" target in under 1 second? That's all the time you'll have if you know where he is shooting from. Can you shoot while running from one location to another? Can you avoid hitting a member of your group running from one point to another. You need to train like your life depends on it - because it might!


If one of your party is captured, you need to train more, I don't intend to allow any one in our group to be in that position. I kinda thought we were talking everyday folks here. Yes, I can shoot moa. Just saying a lot of people would be happy with that accuracy, not even considering external forces :ie, stress, half starved, dehydrated, etc. LEO's have been known to fire many rounds during an engagement and not hit anything. Normal folks will not train even to the minimal requirements of some leo departments.jmo. And you haven't handled a gun in eight years, you need to train more, your life may depend on it. Touche"


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

PaulS said:


> The rate of twist has less to do with accuracy than the bullet and powder you choose. If 5" groups at 100 yards are good enough for you then once we throw in a brisk wind and a dose of adrenaline you will be missing men at 100 yards. At 200 yards you won't be able to hit a large truck much less a man.
> 
> I don't intend malice but if you are intent on using a gun at least learn to use it effectively. If a guy is holding a member of your party hostage and using him/her as a shield you need to be able to confidently shoot a 2 inch wide target that is about that high too. If you miss you could kill your friend or miss the bad guy. If you don't want to go to that extreme then your target is behind a small hill and just comes up high enough to see you and shoot. Can you hit that 5x3" target in under 1 second? That's all the time you'll have if you know where he is shooting from. Can you shoot while running from one location to another? Can you avoid hitting a member of your group running from one point to another. You need to train like your life depends on it - because it might!


Twist rates do have a lot to do with accuracy. Especially at longer distances.. Here is a good link.

Ask Foghorn: Barrel Twist, and Which is Right for Your AR-15? | The Truth About Guns


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

PrepConsultant said:


> Twist rates do have a lot to do with accuracy. Especially at longer distances.. Here is a good link.
> 
> Ask Foghorn: Barrel Twist, and Which is Right for Your AR-15? | The Truth About Guns


I love it, one of my go to sites on gun reviews and common man remarks on anything gun related. Thanks. There's this hot gal that does reviews there, talks straight, and to the point. If I wasn't married, I would propose to her


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Y'all have a good weekend.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

1skrewsloose said:


> If one of your party is captured, you need to train more, I don't intend to allow any one in our group to be in that position. I kinda thought we were talking everyday folks here. Yes, I can shoot moa. Just saying a lot of people would be happy with that accuracy, not even considering external forces :ie, stress, half starved, dehydrated, etc. LEO's have been known to fire many rounds during an engagement and not hit anything. Normal folks will not train even to the minimal requirements of some leo departments.jmo. And you haven't handled a gun in eight years, you need to train more, your life may depend on it. Touche"


I am training - but it takes time to get back to shooting larger caliber guns - My 3006 is beyond the limit of what I was allowed to lift for the last eight years. I am competing in small bore silhouette and doing well compared to the rest of the shooters. I'm just not doing as well as I think I should. I am practicing with reduced loads in my 357 and able to keep five shots inside a one inch dot at 25 yards but after two of my "normal" loads I am ready for some aspirin and a cold pack. I have stronger medications but I only use it when I hurt for no reason - If its my fault I live with it. I even fired five rounds from my old '06 but that put me down for a couple days. Like I said I am working on it. Oh, I am only a "AA" shooter in the silhouette matches. There is one other "AA" shooter just behind me a couple of targets but there is new competition coming in. I have got my son interested and he is out to beat me. It would thrill me to no end if he did (but I don't tell him that). My 15 year old granddaughter has started shooting the matches too and she could be a "AA" shooter if she spent a little time practicing.


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## PrepConsultant (Aug 28, 2012)

Competitions are always fun!


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