# Shot Placement vs Neutralizing the Threat



## Grinch (Jan 3, 2016)

Okay everyone, here we go again, this is similar to a bigger caliber vs smaller caliber debate hopefully without all of the derailment, I got a Glock 20 last summer, it's my second newest gun, and probably one of the ones I have used the least, now today was range day more like range hour for my buddy and I but regardless. He loves his Glock 17, 19 and 43, he also brings his Ruger SR9 and his Beretta. He asked me why I use regular PPU 180 grain jacketed hollow points and not get carry ammo for it, my first and main point which he argued was shot placement is not always needed with a hostile situation. He argued saying that it is and so we got into it. 

Now this is our theoretical situation, you're going around your place hunting or whatever and you see someone, they are approaching you and you ask with a loud voice what they are doing when they see you they draw or go to raise a gun on you. 

My point being to him that basically if you hit this attacker or whoever it might be anywhere from the knees up they're going go down, of course if you shoot them in the hand they're not, but he says that someone could survive a shot from a 10mm to the stomach. I agree but I tell him the shot to the stomach allows me to put a better shot on. 

The question being implied here is: Does a bigger caliber give more of a vital area to a shooter, and if so does give the need for a bigger caliber i.e 10mm or 45ACP. Would you rather have a 10mm or 45ACP than a 9mm, 357 Sig, or 380 ?


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

I like to use my shot placement to neutralize any threat Breath squeeze the trigger feel the force (Recoil)


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

You lay a .380,9mm,.45,10mm,44 mag on the table and tell me I must defend my life at 50 yards. 

I'm taking the 44 mag everytime. Next is the 10mm. So yes, given the scenario I just laid out I want bigger. 

I personally witnessed the immediate after effects of a 250 lb man that was shot with a .44 mag at about 20 yards. He was hit in the knee and it almost blew his leg off from the knee down. He would have bled to death if a nurse that happened to be at the party didn't tie him off.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

If there is a lethal threat 50 yards away I'm breaking camp. If there is a lethal threat 5 yards away my 9mm will either get the job done or it won't. A bigger caliber means nothing. I have seen too many Gs killed with a Hi point 9mm not to be a believer.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

while shot placement is the actual answer I think the bigger the bullet the more it is going to hurt -pain can be a great equalizer in neutralizing the attacker. *note,* you don't have to kill to neutralize the threat.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Operator6 said:


> You lay a .380,9mm,.45,10mm,44 mag on the table and tell me I must defend my life at 50 yards.
> 
> I'm taking the 44 mag everytime. Next is the 10mm. So yes, given the scenario I just laid out I want bigger.
> 
> I personally witnessed the immediate after effects of a 250 lb man that was shot with a .44 mag at about 20 yards. He was hit in the knee and it almost blew his leg off from the knee down. He would have bled to death if a nurse that happened to be at the party didn't tie him off.


I'd Like that again if they would let me

Theres no such thing as a flesh wound from a 44 mag

Here lies Lester Moore killed dead with a 44


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Grinch said:


> ...
> The question being implied here is: Does a bigger caliber give more of a vital area to a shooter, and if so does give the need for a bigger caliber i.e 10mm or 45ACP. Would you rather have a 10mm or 45ACP than a 9mm, 357 Sig, or 380 ?


The .500 SW Mag

View attachment 14579


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

Operator6 said:


> You lay a .380,9mm,.45,10mm,44 mag on the table and tell me I must defend my life at 50 yards.
> 
> I'm taking the 44 mag everytime. Next is the 10mm. So yes, given the scenario I just laid out I want bigger.
> 
> *I personally witnessed the immediate after effects of a 250 lb man that was shot with a .44 mag at about 20 yards. He was hit in the knee and it almost blew his leg off from the knee down. He would have bled to death if a nurse that happened to be at the party didn't tie him off*.


*note to self* rich people with guns drinkin alcohol at party is a bad idea keep away.
thanks operator 6 for this and yes a 44 is nasty.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

csi-tech said:


> If there is a lethal threat 50 yards away I'm breaking camp. If there is a lethal threat 5 yards away my 9mm will either get the job done or it won't. A bigger caliber means nothing. I have seen too many Gs killed with a Hi point 9mm not to be a believer.


A bigger caliber means nothing ? You sure about that ?

So a guy with an Ar at 50 yards raises it and your going to run ? Good luck ! You wouldn't get 10 steps around here and if ya did, you wouldn't get 20 steps !!! Lol !


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Gunner's Mate said:


> I'd Like that again if they would let me
> 
> Theres no such thing as a flesh wound from a 44 mag
> 
> Here lies Lester Moore killed dead with a 44


Aint no Les No More


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Slippy said:


> The .500 SW Mag
> 
> View attachment 14579


You get gut shot with that and you're a dead man and quick !


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Anyone seen the you tube of the candian sniper shooting afganis with the 50 cal???? Arms and shit were flyin through the air gruesome... But bigger is better


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

Gunner's Mate said:


> Anyone seen the you tube of the candian sniper shooting afganis with the 50 cal???? Arms and shit were flyin through the air gruesome... But bigger is better


Was that the one where he was using American made ammo and the .50 BMG McMillan Bolt Action Rifle?


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

You want the largest hunk of lead that you can accurately place. A hit with a 22lr is better than a miss with a 44 mag. Shot placement being equal then 44 mag is the choice in this example. If your being attacked your going center of the chest if it fails one of three things: drugs, body armor, determined opponent. Now go for between the eyes. I believe in shot placement.


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## phrogman (Apr 17, 2014)

Shot placement is king. A hit in the heart, CNS, brain or any other vital organ is going to take them down wether you hit them with a 9mm or a 44 mag. The question is, if you miss a vital organ on your first shot, how fast and accurate can you be with the second shot?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

When you are under fire, and trying to hit a moving target, "shot placement" is a direct function of luck.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

To answer the original question, compared to rifles, handgun power is puny. 
If limited to a handgun, I want one that will make the biggest holes possible, in order to let body fluid out faster. Absent a direct hit on the central nervous system, people just don't keel over and die in a second or two.
That is why my carry choices are either a 357 magnum with full house 125 grain loads, or a 44 Special. Both are pocket sized.
I do have a full size 9MM, but that would not be my primary choice for home defense. Nor a 45 ACP. Home defense for me is either a shotgun, rifle, or if limited to a handgun, 44 magnum or 45 Colt +P.
Go big, or go home. In a body bag.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Bigger is always better. That's what I tell all my girlfriends.


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## Targetshooter (Dec 4, 2015)

You can defend your self from a attacker with a .22LR pistol and stop the threat ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no one can tell me you can't .................tight group ? yes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, one shot ? yes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you shoot anything in the heart , they , it , are done ,,,,,,,,,,,, so need a large caliber ? no ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, bears , moose , elk ,,,,,,,,,,, yes a large caliber is needed .


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

'Your objective is to stop further aggression. If you kill the attacker in the process, that is his problem"--- Jeff Cooper
wording may not be exact.


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## .22LR Kid (Jan 28, 2016)

Targetshooter said:


> You can defend your self from a attacker with a .22LR pistol and stop the threat ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no one can tell me you can't .................tight group ? yes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, one shot ? yes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you shoot anything in the heart , they , it , are done ,,,,,,,,,,,, so need a large caliber ? no ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, bears , moose , elk ,,,,,,,,,,, yes a large caliber is needed .


 I agree with you Targetshooter .


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Accurate shot placement ensures a stop. Size and mass of the attacker doesn't matter.
If you can't place a CNS shot on target, it becomes a question of the attacker's mass, size, and speed.
A .22 to the stomach won't stop a 6'5" 300lbs ex-con coming at you with a knife.
A .44 *might* stop him before he reaches you, depending on distance.
Anything to the brain box *WILL* stop him, regardless of size, mass, or speed, and regardless of caliber.

Shot placement *IS* the answer.

Now... the secondary question is, can you make that shot? During a high-adrenaline situation with tunnel vision and split-second judgement, can you put a shot into the CNS?
Like RPD said, luck had better be on your side.
Yes, a .44 has a higher chance of inflicting damage *IF* you hit anything. However, how many shots will you have in a larger caliber option?
Nobody has ever survived a gunfight and said afterwards, "Man, I had too many rounds."

Train often. Train under stress. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!!!!


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

Shot placement center mass! Stop the threat to you. Weather its 1 large hole or several smaller holes caliber don't matter,shot placement does.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Nobody has ever survived a gunfight and said afterwards, "Man, I had too many rounds."
> 
> Train often. Train under stress. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!!!!


Clint Smith, noted weapon trainer, combat Marine, Purple Heart recipient, once said "No one who has survived a gun fight ever wished for a smaller gun or less ammo."

Ideally, one could really get some good training if it were possible to have an intravenous injection of adrenaline immediately prior to the drill.
Barring that, run some wind sprints to get everything "flowing" and then have someone yell and curse you right in your face to get some stress going.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Targetshooter said:


> You can defend your self from a attacker with a .22LR pistol and stop the threat ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no one can tell me you can't .................tight group ? yes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, one shot ? yes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you shoot anything in the heart , they , it , are done ,,,,,,,,,,,, so need a large caliber ? no ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, bears , moose , elk ,,,,,,,,,,, yes a large caliber is needed .


Consider this - a fully oxygenated brain is capable of conscious thought for up to 18 seconds after the heart fully stops. Put a couple, or more, 22 LR straight into the heart of a determined, armed, opponent and he can still kill you too.

Read some Medal Of Honor citations to see how much damage can be done to a human body and the person still keeps fighting.


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## keith9365 (Apr 23, 2014)

Shoot what you can shoot accurately and practice practice practice. I never liked bigger pistol calibers like .40 or .45. I have smaller hands (5'7" 170 lbs runt) 9mm fits me well and I shoot it well. If you can shoot .357, .44 mag, or 10mm accurately with fast, ACCURATE follow up shots then have at it.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

well this might not be scientific but I am sure if you blow someones arm off most likely the threat is over and the clean up begins don't know too many .22 that can do this.
I saw a girl 15-16 ish about 5-2 105 pounds (maybe), take 4 shots to the chest at point blank range( yes I saw the shooting) in S. America carried her about a mile to a medical clinic she lived -15 minutes later I saw a 200+ 6-2 man take one .22lr to the chest died on the spot. So, it is not only shot placement you got to hit something vital.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Me? I am going for whatever round gives me the best chance of stopping an attacker (I say attacker because I would only ever shoot if I (or an obviously innocent person) was being attacked.

We all know that police (say what you want about their training) have a horrible hit-percentage in officer involved shootings, due to the fact that real-life is not simulated accurately by their training and (of course) stress.

I am a good shot, not great but certainly a good shot, but I in no way consider myself better trained than a well trained police officer (I am better trained than badly trained ones though).

Here's an interesting article about the shot percentage that I read the other day: https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/117909-Study-reveals-important-truths-hidden-in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/

Depending on shot placement may work for TV Actors who NEVER miss, but me? I'm going for whatever gives me the best chance to take down somebody IF my bullet hits home.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Does hydrostatic shock have an effect on stopping power? I would think so. The bigger and faster the bullet the more energy get dumped into the target. Increasing stopping power.









I cc a 9mm because I like the capacity and ease of carry. Around the house it's 357. I'm confident both could save my life.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Medic33 said:


> well this might not be scientific but I am sure if you blow someones arm off most likely the threat is over and the clean up begins don't know too many .22 that can do this.


How about fighting on after a leg severed by a high velocity tank cannon round? CMOHS.org - Sergeant NEPPEL, RALPH G., U.S. Army

Hit by machinegun fire, and having a demolition charge you are preparing to throw go off in your hand? CMOHS.org - Staff Sergeant BORDELON, WILLIAM JAMES, U.S. Marine Corps

As I mentioned earlier, go to CMOHS.org - Official Website of the Congressional Medal of Honor Society and just read at random.

Ultimate bad assery goes to a Green Beret by the name of Roy P. Benavidez. A legend among soldiers. All Americans should know of this man. Not only for what he did in combat, but how he lived his life after. I'm not sure how many US Navy ships are named after a US Army soldier, but I bet not many. Benavidez


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Going back to the original argument: you are being threatened by someone else with a gun, . . . you are not the "at fault" person in this scenario.

Yes, . . . to a certain degree, . . . the larger the caliber, . . . the better probability of harm, and thus less backtalk from the bad guy. When you shoot, . . . you shoot to stop the threat, . . . for me that is the second button down from the collar on his flannel shirt, . . . or seriously thereabouts.

BUT, . . . that is all predicated on one idea: the shooter hit the target. I've seen folks empty a full Ruger Redhawk, Colt Python, Colt Anaconda, etc to a man size target, . . . and all they did was fan the paper with the bullets going by. That won't do the shooter much good in a confrontation.

On the other hand, . . . I personally know people who can put 10 out of 10 long rifle hollow points into the face of a man size target at 30 feet, . . . faster than you can think of reloading the magazines for the gun. I just have a sneaking hunch, . . . that may change his attitude, . . . make him a whole lot more cooperative.

I will not carry a .44 mag because of the recoil, the long time getting back on target, and the possibility of damage done by a missed round or a round that went fully through the perp. With my .45 ACP, 4 inch commander, . . . I've also got 9 rounds, . . . wheel guns mostly have 5 or 6, . . . one or two have 7 or 8, . . . and I can usually have 17 rounds down range on the target before the wheel gunner and his big bore will even have 6, . . . much less reloaded and going again.

Just my opinions, . . . worth what you paid for them.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Medic33 said:


> So, it is not only shot placement you got to hit something vital.


My definition of "proper shot placement" is solely restricted to vital areas.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

Yes RPD those are rare super human instances 1 out of a million and through out history there are many examples of solders fighting well beyond the human bodies limits even before firearms were around- the average person or thug would go down screaming bloody murder if grandma repeatedly wacked them over the head with a whiffle ball bat and you know it's true how many times did you see a trooper go down with a minor injury on the field of battle this is a psychological effect those that didn't already had the mental state that they were going to die so to them nothing mattered besides living long enough for completing the mission they set out to do. I will say this a thug as hard as they may be will have their hands full will a 80 year old combat vet intent on stopping them.
but this is about caliber vs shot placement not how big your kohoonas are and even with them the size of coconuts one 22 to center mass in the head or heart will kill them dead.
do we agree on this?


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Ultimate bad assery goes to a Green Beret by the name of Roy P. Benavidez. A legend among soldiers. All Americans should know of this man. Not only for what he did in combat, but how he lived his life after.


He was in real life what people pretend Chuck Norris is... The alternate spelling of the word "warrior" is "Benavidez"


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## Prepper News (Jan 17, 2016)

Operator6 said:


> You lay a .380,9mm,.45,10mm,44 mag on the table and tell me I must defend my life at 50 yards.
> 
> I'm taking the 44 mag everytime. Next is the 10mm. So yes, given the scenario I just laid out I want bigger.
> 
> I personally witnessed the immediate after effects of a 250 lb man that was shot with a .44 mag at about 20 yards. He was hit in the knee and it almost blew his leg off from the knee down. He would have bled to death if a nurse that happened to be at the party didn't tie him off.


That must have been one heck of a party bro.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Medic33 said:


> but this is about caliber vs shot placement not how big your kohoonas are and even with them the size of coconuts one 22 to center mass in the head or heart will kill them dead.
> do we agree on this?


No, we do not agree on 22LR.
Head shot? Chances are it may not penetrate the skull.
Heart? Yeah, it may kill someone. Long after he has time to kill you.

Why don't cops use 22's?
Why does the military not fight with hand guns?

But, if you want to use a 22 for something bigger than squirrels, go right ahead.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

If I could carry and effectively employ a sidearm that launched a round the size of a 8" arty shell, I would. Obviously, that is not a possibility.

So, what is the next, best option? I carry the largest caliber I can effectively employ, depending on the status of my damaged wrist and what I feel like wearing on any particular day.

Regarding the offered scenario, any trespasser who attempts to draw on me as I approach is attempting nothing short of suicide. I will already have drawn and commands issued will be issued with authority and resolution. I assume all people are crazy as runover dogs, nowadays.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

The mob tried to kill Sammy the Bull with a .22 but the guy didn't get the angle right and it bounced off, he got up and I believe beat the guy to death. 

.22 are for killing beer cans and putting the barrel in the ear canal.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I live trapped a raccoon that had killed one of my hens, and came back the next night for more.
Florida law says raccoons can not be relocated, so I had to shoot him.
I used my Ruger 10/22 at a range of about 3 feet. Shot him in the head. He started going nuts, so I shot him in the head again. And again. And again. 4 shots, Winchester Super X 37 grain hollow point. For a raccoon.

A 200 pound man jacked up on adrenaline, booze, drugs? A 22LR? Right!


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Skunk, .22LR, one shot, dead skunk.
Never did check where I hit him, made my brother bury it.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I live trapped a raccoon that had killed one of my hens, and came back the next night for more.
> Florida law says raccoons can not be relocated, so I had to shoot him.
> I used my Ruger 10/22 at a range of about 3 feet. Shot him in the head. He started going nuts, so I shot him in the head again. And again. And again. 4 shots, Winchester Super X 37 grain hollow point. For a raccoon
> A 200 pound man jacked up on adrenaline, booze, drugs? A 22LR? Right!


Next time just throw the trap in the creek for a few mins. Less mess that way.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Arklatex said:


> Next time just throw the trap in the creek for a few mins. Less mess that way.


I try to be as humane as possible.
The raccoon was doing what comes naturally to him/her. It doesn't deserve to suffer.

Now, a child rapist caught in the act would perhaps be a different story.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

First only the first shot can set shock/pain into motion after the first one adrenaline kicks in and pain is blocked out. After that you either have to cut his wires (spinal column/brain stem) or drop his blood pressure (bleed him out) . Bullets that expand and cut a wider wound channel have a greater chance of cutting something vital.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> No, we do not agree on 22LR.
> Head shot? Chances are it may not penetrate the skull.
> Heart? Yeah, it may kill someone. Long after he has time to kill you.
> 
> ...


really put your head out there and let someone shoot it with a 22 ,what/ why not? CAUSE IT WILL KILL YOU
I not arguing that the 22 is a pipsqueek round you know as well as I do that you grab the biggest thing you got we would all use 155 mm howitzers if we could fit them in out pockets.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Medic33 said:


> really put your head out there and let someone shoot it with a 22 ,what/ why not? CAUSE IT WILL KILL YOU
> I not arguing that the 22 is a pipsqueek round you know as well as I do that you grab the biggest thing you got we would all use 155 mm howitzers if we could fit them in out pockets.


He's not saying they won't kill you, he's saying it's not efficient enough and before the attacker dies he has time to return fire and possible even take a vacation...... Before he expires.


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

I will shoot the perp with what ever the hell I am carrying!! mostly it would be my 1911 commander in 45 but sometimes I carry a 9mm
and believe me... Im not gonna stop at 1 shot! The first one may hit in the stomach but my follow up shots will be more precise..


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Ya know how often a chicken will flop around when ya shoot 'em in the head with a 22?
We had a rooster that was plain mean, beat up some good hens, dang near killed the ladies own rooster. I decided to solve the problem, and as an experiment I used another firearm. My old H&R .410 single shot. Did you know that hit at a distance of 5 feet with one round of 3" Winchester OOO buck an almost 10 pound rooster doesn't flop once? Not once. 
He was tasty, too. The buck passed clean through.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Target shooting for fun all bulls eyes. Real world you shoot center mass of target presented you, you shoot until threat is stopped. If you think with a hand gun you are going to worry about the old two to the chest one to the head line you will be a dead man.

Many years ago when I was really young Dad was shot 7 times with a .22. He beat the man that shot him almost to death , he was in the hospital a long time. Dad went to work the next day. I still remember Mom yelling at him about not staying home. Will a .22 kill, you bet but it is a big gamble.


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## reartinetiller (Feb 26, 2015)

Can place two shots with the 1022 at 100 yards center mass with 40 grain HP's and your done. Roy


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Slippy said:


> The .500 SW Mag
> 
> View attachment 14579


So, I think its safe to assume that we've all cycled back to the winner^^^^^.

(Slippy takes a bow...:77


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Slippy said:


> So, I think its safe to assume that we've all cycled back to the winner^^^^^.
> 
> (Slippy takes a bow...:77


 Just takes to long to get it in and out of the pocket. It should just scare them to death looking at it.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Just takes to long to get it in and out of the pocket. It should just scare them to death looking at it.


It is kind of like pulling out a small sword!

I can hear it now..."Is that a S&W.500 mag in your pocket or are you happy to see me"? :joyous:


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Slippy said:


> It is kind of like pulling out a small sword!
> 
> I can hear it now..."Is that a S&W.500 mag in your pocket or are you happy to see me"? :joyous:


 Slippy this question comes up often. If you could only have one hand gun and you know you are going to a gun fight from your vault what would you take? Now That is really a dumb question. If I know I am headed for a gun fight I may just go around. If I can't I am taking the AR15. 
But if I had to answer it would be My OIF Para 45 double stack 45. 14 rounds of 230 gr 45 from a flawless weapon. It will stop the threat, it will allow me to hit the threat at reasonable range and what ever it hits will be stopped.
Not that it madders much but match grade barrel and improved trigger


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

Smitty901, if there are no rules in a gunfight I'm taking McMillan's .338 Lap Rifle, and I'm getting no closer than 2000 Meters. The other guy can have any handgun he desires, and he gets the second shot. In case one shot equals one kill, the guy with the handgun just loses.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Slippy this question comes up often. If you could only have one hand gun and you know you are going to a gun fight from your vault what would you take? Now That is really a dumb question. If I know I am headed for a gun fight I may just go around. If I can't I am taking the AR15.
> But if I had to answer it would be My OIF Para 45 double stack 45. 14 rounds of 230 gr 45 from a flawless weapon. It will stop the threat, it will allow me to hit the threat at reasonable range and what ever it hits will be stopped.
> Not that it madders much but match grade barrel and improved trigger
> 
> View attachment 14627


Its a good question Smitty, and I think about often. If it had to be a handgun, for years my answer would be my S&W M&P .45 (otherwise, I'm going with an M4)

View attachment 14628


But lately, the more I train with my Ruger GP100 .357mag special Wiley Clapp Edition; nice trigger, great sights...I'd feel pretty comfortable with it.

View attachment 14629


But I'd still want my M4


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Shot Placement when it really Counts


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

Don't be on the Starboard rail or you need to be quite a good swimmer GM.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Your ass better below deck


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

Ever heard what they sound like passing over your head? Kind of like victory! Thanks GM, if it wasn't you it was one of your kind.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

These are being built around the corner from me.

2016 warships......

Austal hosts keel laying ceremony for future USS Tulsa (LCS 16) | Austal: United States


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

M118LR said:


> Smitty901, if there are no rules in a gunfight I'm taking McMillan's .338 Lap Rifle, and I'm getting no closer than 2000 Meters. The other guy can have any handgun he desires, and he gets the second shot. In case one shot equals one kill, the guy with the handgun just loses.


 I would agree take the biggest weapon you can . If you can call for fire and sit back and watch the show. Stand off range wins the day. There is nothing better than hitting your target long before he can hit you. As for rules when it comes down to living or dying there are no rules. I am infantry hand guns were never really an option. Medics , Machine gunner and some officers had hand guns no one else had any use for them.
Basic rules hand gun, grenade , Knife and hand to hand are weapons you never want to be forced to use. If you need them you have already screwed up and let them get to close.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

WTF where are the guns


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

About the BB Thing, perhaps it's a discussion left to those inside the goat locker. Every Service has it's apex, perhaps that is why they have songs about the Green Barrett?


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> I would agree take the biggest weapon you can . If you can call for fire and sit back and watch the show. Stand off range wins the day. There is nothing better than hitting your target long before he can hit you. As for rules when it comes down to living or dying there are no rules. I am infantry hand guns were never really an option. Medics , Machine gunner and some officers had hand guns no one else had any use for them.
> Basic rules hand gun, grenade , Knife and hand to hand are weapons you never want to be forced to use. If you need them you have already screwed up and let them get to close.


You ain't lived by Frogman Rules yet Smitty, They dumped me into the South China Sea with a MK2 a couple of 35mm SR Camera's and a S-Can full of B&W high res film. Welcome to Vietnam! Ha Ha Ha. Like Dragnet, nothing but the truth.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Gunner's Mate said:


> WTF where are the guns


57mm guns, rolling airframe missile system. 2 helicopters, underwater vehicles and surface vehicles. 
57mm guns rate of fire 220 rpm effective range 9300 yards. Max range 19,000 yards. 
Read all about it here....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_shipt


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

I think I need to slow my roll until we all get on the same page. Life got better for me once I was TAD to the ground component of Operation Igloo Ice. But this thread was about the supposed difference between stopping power and shot placement. About that, all of the aforementioned boils down to one thing, if the shot isn't in the medulla oblongata caliber and placement are all mute.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Bullfrog


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

Perhaps you might clarify that for the Non-Salted, Polliwogs!


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

No need all shellbackers know


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

I favor a gun big enough to do business yet small enough to lug around unobtrusively on your person. .40 SW works for me. I was taught center of mass. So..I prob start there and invest a few and then start trying for head shots...but a person never knows till they been in that situation. Would consider a 10 mm or .357 Sig if the ammo was easy to find and fairly cheap.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Operator6 said:


> 57mm guns, rolling airframe missile system. 2 helicopters, underwater vehicles and surface vehicles.
> 57mm guns rate of fire 220 rpm effective range 9300 yards. Max range 19,000 yards.
> Read all about it here....
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_shipt


Effective range of a 16 inch Naval Gun 41,622 yards 20.55 nm) with nominal 660 lb powder charge (+)


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Gunner's Mate said:


> Shot Placement when it really Counts


The lady who almost talked me into going into the navy was the BB-60.

Fortunately, I remembered the farthest I had ever swam away from the beach and back was a mile. Not as far as ships go. So, I went army.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Gunner's Mate said:


> Effective range of a 16 inch Naval Gun 41,622 yards 20.55 nm) with nominal 660 lb powder charge (+)


Different type ship. The ships here are being built for littoral warfare are considered corvettes of the Navy fleet.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> Bigger is always better. That's what I tell all my girlfriends.


And when they ask you what exactly you mean?

There is no right answer. Just a more right answer. If all I had was a .22 I would wield it just as feircly and aggressively and with as much confidence as a .44. I would prefer the .44 but this is all moot. I wield a mighty sharp stick. And the mere site of it is deterrent enough for most aggressors.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Operator6 said:


> Different type ship. The ships here are being built for littoral warfare are considered corvettes of the Navy fleet.


Shut up and tip your hat to the BB-60.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Well we didnt have to run that far because it aint very far from bow to stern no hills either, no mud, chow was damn good and no campin out hell I don't think the Navy even has tents

I ve been on the the BB60 the USS Alabama Damn fine ship Let me rephrase that I have visited the Alabama I did not serve on the Alabama


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

This post has taken on a life of its own, far from where it first started, somewhere between all the beer and whiskey and good intentions, ( the road to hell is paved in good intentions) this post has turned down down a road that you can't back out of


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Gunner's Mate said:


> Well we didnt have to run that far because it aint very far from bow to stern no hills either, no mud, chow was damn good and no campin out hell I don't think the Navy even has tents
> 
> I ve been on the the BB60 the USS Alabama Damn fine ship Let me rephrase that I have visited the Alabama


I admire the USS Alabama all the time, I pass it almost daily.

They sold the lathe off that ship and I know where it is........:glee:

I'm going to start posting pictures soon, and some good ones. I met an old guy the other day that help build the engines in some aircraft carrier.

He said only a handful of people were allowed in there to see it. Top secret propulsion systems.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Gunner's Mate said:


> This post has taken on a life of its own, far from where it first started, somewhere between all the beer and whiskey and good intentions, ( the road to hell is paved in good intentions) this post has turned down down a road that you can't back out of


Seems these days ........ don't they all?


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

you can neutralize the threat by shooting them in the foot with a.22 or blowing their leg off with a 12 gauge does it really matter as long as the placement of the shot neutralized the threat.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

and I would say the placement of the spot neutralized this thread.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Medic33 said:


> you can neutralize the threat by shooting them in the foot with a.22 or blowing their leg off with a 12 gauge does it really matter as long as the placement of the shot neutralized the threat.


Nobody has ever shot at me with their foot. And, yes, several rounds have been launched in my direction.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

You shoot me in the foot with a 22 and you better make sure that gun has no sights on it so it doesnt hurt as much when I take it away from you and stick it up your arse


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

At least slather it in grease.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Medic33 said:


> you can neutralize the threat by shooting them in the foot with a.22 or blowing their leg off with a 12 gauge does it really matter as long as the placement of the shot neutralized the threat.


That is true in some instances. Most with the shotgun scenario.


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