# are we terrorist ? really?



## miho (Jun 10, 2012)

I heard some people talking about doomsday prepper show at the grocery store and one of them said there's a bill that was signed that said preppers are terrorist. is that true?


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

According to a shocking document obtained by Oath Keepers, the FBI is now instructing store owners to report many new forms of “suspicious activity” to them. According to the document, “suspicious activity” now includes….

-paying with cash

-missing a hand or fingers

-”strange odors”

-making “extreme religious statements”

-”radical theology”

-purchasing weatherproofed ammunition or match containers

-purchasing meals ready to eat

-purchasing night vision devices, night flashlights or gas masks


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## miho (Jun 10, 2012)

What does missing hand or finger have to do with terrorism?


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## Juggernaut (Feb 15, 2013)

@miho Bomb construction. Make enough and they bite you eventually if your not trained.


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## Juggernaut (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't understand though. If your prepping for emergency situations and you so happen to be reported then what? Are you watched? lol


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## Verteidiger (Nov 16, 2012)

miho said:


> What does missing hand or finger have to do with terrorism?


Missing fingers or hands can be a physical characteristic of people who handle explosives or build bombs.

No one is a terrorist unless and until they commit an act of terror.

People who gather ammo, guns and other supplies are sometimes viewed by law enforcement as suspicious.

Someone canning garden vegetables and fruits would not draw any such attention.

If preparing for emergencies or to survive during periods of shortages would make people a terrorist, then the Boy Scouts of America, whose motto is "Be prepared" would be considered terrorists.

You are not a criminal unless or until you commit a crime. Prepping is perfectly legal in America.


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## bennettvm (Jan 5, 2013)

So, I have a missing finger, go into a store and purchase ammo and some camping supplies and the FBI is notified? What if I work on the bomb squad at the local police department or am a demo expert in the military? This sounds like a lot of over-hyped propaganda and worry.


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

According to the DHS you are.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Lets look at this from the other side if we could with rational beliefs. You are challenged with keeping our nation safe from terrorist attack.
How many times have we seen "survivalist" and "preppers" say the course of freedom must be replinished with blood from time to time? 
Or how might a foreign national (terrorist) try to engage against America - by living on the grid with open Internet channels to his "followers"
at home, or off the grid, paying with cash, purchasing gear that might help him/them in their endeavors? 

I've bought and sold at least 10 guns in the last few years, bought and sold enough gardening seed for 50 families, bought building 
supplies for a home, power supply, water system, and both ammunition and supplies to help with that defense. I could care less if the
govt knows because I'm not threatening them. In fact I'd like it if our government would succeed next time someone wants to fly a 
plane into a building - I would prefer they stop them. I would prefer they keep our economy straight so we don't suffer the loss of
a collapsed dollar. And if I can help them - our government - in thos endeavors I'd gladly do so.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Ripon said:


> Lets look at this from the other side if we could with rational beliefs. You are challenged with keeping our nation safe from terrorist attack.
> How many times have we seen "survivalist" and "preppers" say the course of freedom must be replinished with blood from time to time?
> ...................................
> And if I can help them - our government - in thos endeavors I'd gladly do so.


"The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." THOMAS JEFFERSON.

I can see where the Founding Fathers would be considered "terrorists" by the current administration and the current evolution of the Democratic party.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." THOMAS JEFFERSON


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## Verteidiger (Nov 16, 2012)

bennettvm said:


> So, I have a missing finger, go into a store and purchase ammo and some camping supplies and the FBI is notified? What if I work on the bomb squad at the local police department or am a demo expert in the military? This sounds like a lot of over-hyped propaganda and worry.


These are just indications of potential suspicious activity. Law enforcement issues guidance documents to gun shops, pharmacies, banks, and other merchants that instruct them on things to look for if someone is acting suspicious, or if the retailer sees multiple purchases or unusual quantities being bought. Think about it.

Someone buys 50 sacks of sugar - moonshiner? 10 bottles of decongestants - meth kitchen operator? A lot of certain kinds of fertilizer and a lot of diesel - farmer or bomber? Someone buys a pallet of ammo and multiple weapons all at once?

Of course, some people have legitimate reasons to buy all these things in such amounts. But some do not....


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Ripon said:


> Lets look at this from the other side if we could with rational beliefs. You are challenged with keeping our nation safe from terrorist attack.
> How many times have we seen "survivalist" and "preppers" say the course of freedom must be replinished with blood from time to time?
> Or how might a foreign national (terrorist) try to engage against America - by living on the grid with open Internet channels to his "followers"
> at home, or off the grid, paying with cash, purchasing gear that might help him/them in their endeavors?
> ...


I would agree if the government did only what they are allowed by the Constitution, which they don't. The government is just as guilty of prepping as any one, but they do it with others money and don't ask for permission and at the same time consider the free legal citizens that do the same an enemy/terrorist. Every person in government is guilty of the same thing, "what they allow, they encourage", when they say nothing, help with the process or work to infringe on free legal citizens doing nothing illegal. There is not a bigger hoarder/prepper, then the U.S. Government, period! The government doesn't do what they do to help the citizens, but to save themselves from the citizens. NO,I don't want to help government the.


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## miho (Jun 10, 2012)

I try to not act like a prepper lol i do but buy my preps not all at once.i make like 3 trips when i.do that on diff days after work.right now I'm stocking up on candles i figure with lent and easter everybody buy candles for whatever is they do.so hopefully i don't have to worry about being a suspect of terrorism.


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## Mesozoic Survivalist (Mar 24, 2013)

The difficulty in owning a firearm, whether capable of firing real ammunition or appearing to be a capable firearm is extremely tough in the UK. It's not considered suspicious to own a handgun in the US and preppers are freely able to access weapons and ammunition. I think hoarding items and weapons can definitely be seen as suspicious, though anybody who told me they were doing so I could completely understand why they would. A government however doesn't care for reasons, they want to protect their interests by ensuring that your own interests aren't cause for alarm.


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## Old Man (Dec 10, 2012)

DHS are just getting ready for the use of drones. Being a prepper, is their way of make you dangerous to the rest of America.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Under this Administration we are all terrorist if we are not in step with them. They are the ones that labeled all American veterans the number 1 threat to America.
Funny few spoke up then.
Each time they do this to many set back and say well it is not me. Well now it is your turn and it maybe to late .
We won't take your guns really it goes on and on.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

miho said:


> What does missing hand or finger have to do with terrorism?


gotta learn somehow...

Its nice to think they think you are terrorists, when in fact you are potential terrorist threats. There is a little bit of a difference.

Obviously they arn't treating you like terrorists, they are treating you like potential terrorist threats.

Some people might wonder what is the difference between an an American born to terrorist parents and an american born to non terrorist parents, or someone born to foreign terrorists, or foreign people. Not very much if they don't like you, fact is they still have guns and bombs and the ability to see in the dark.

People riding bicycles in the Middle east are potential terrorist threats, you have way more liberties stateside.

If they are riding toward you and don't stop when you get that gut feeling they are terrorists.

It probably works the same way stateside, you buy guns and bomb making materials you are a potential, you leave your home with bombs and guns and go to near any point of interest you are treated as a terrorist if they get that gut feeling.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

It is the rhetoric of the new Left. Look back at the election cycle and the venom and vitrol that the left used in their campaign ads. If you disagree with them you are labeled. If you disagree with them with facts they will not debate the issue with you, but will instead insult you, associate you with undesireable behavior and/or groups.


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## EvisRaptor (Jan 20, 2013)

Montana Rancher said:


> -purchasing night night flashlights


Umm excuse me but aint flashlights intended for use at night so you dont trip, fall on your face and break bones???????????????????


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Would you agree that provide for the commond defense is a constitutional element? If so then why shouldn't the Federal Government be the biggest prepper of all?



ekim said:


> I would agree if the government did only what they are allowed by the Constitution, which they don't. The government is just as guilty of prepping as any one, but they do it with others money and don't ask for permission and at the same time consider the free legal citizens that do the same an enemy/terrorist. Every person in government is guilty of the same thing, "what they allow, they encourage", when they say nothing, help with the process or work to infringe on free legal citizens doing nothing illegal. There is not a bigger hoarder/prepper, then the U.S. Government, period! The government doesn't do what they do to help the citizens, but to save themselves from the citizens. NO,I don't want to help government the.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Ripon said:


> Would you agree that provide for the commond defense is a constitutional element? If so then why shouldn't the Federal Government be the biggest prepper of all?


Common defense is not the same as getting into/starting a shooting war at the drop of the hat, which our government does all the time and seldom for our actual defense. We probably won't agree much on this issue, but you can make all the lame excuses you want.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

We prep for a time when the government can not or will no longer keep order within our Constitutional rights. A time when the normal flow of commerce can not supply the basic needs.
It appears some in the government are preparing for a different reason ,to strip us of the right we have.


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## stonewolf (Mar 22, 2013)

you know the bad thing thats not the whole list and almost every item they say to watch for large purches of is on the fema 72 hour list lol


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Old Man said:


> DHS are just getting ready for the use of drones. Being a prepper, is their way of make you dangerous to the rest of America.


It's an old technique, practiced by the military for at least 100 years, to mentally prepare soldiers to more easily kill the enemy.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

miho said:


> What does missing hand or finger have to do with terrorism?


In Muslim countries they used to cut off your hand if you were a thief, as an extension of that custom, they now cut off parts or whole fingers for minor crimes.

So if you are missing fingers you are assumed to be a potential Muslim or a really bad carpenter.

It is actually racial profiling without the political correctness.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Ripon said:


> Would you agree that provide for the commond defense is a constitutional element? If so then why shouldn't the Federal Government be the biggest prepper of all?


apparently it is, and it is prepping to kick yo az.

---
its all self fullfilling, head chases tail.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Please don't change the topic; you said the government is the biggest prepper of all and thus implied that was wrong. I asked if the government is responsible for the common defense then why shouldn't they be prepared? On this topic I would agree with you we engage in too much foreign activity but that wasn't what I was asking about - I was responding to your prior post then you change the subject. Don't go there if don't want a reasoned discussion then ignore me I don't care.



ekim said:


> Common defense is not the same as getting into/starting a shooting war at the drop of the hat, which our government does all the time and seldom for our actual defense. We probably won't agree much on this issue, but you can make all the lame excuses you want.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Not my az. I'm no threat to our government.



Will said:


> apparently it is, and it is prepping to kick yo az.
> 
> ---
> its all self fullfilling, head chases tail.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

That is good carry on.....:?

This discussion is probably in our FBI files.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Ripon said:


> Please don't change the topic; you said the government is the biggest prepper of all and thus implied that was wrong. I asked if the government is responsible for the common defense then why shouldn't they be prepared? On this topic I would agree with you we engage in too much foreign activity but that wasn't what I was asking about - I was responding to your prior post then you change the subject. Don't go there if don't want a reasoned discussion then ignore me I don't care.


I don't think I change the topic, I gave a reason why the government feels it needs to prep 24/7/365. The government is always looking to stick their/our nose where it doesn't belong. If we/the U.S. wasn't always in a conflict/war we would have more than enough supplies/what ever, then we would be prepped for defense. I'm not trying to ignore you, it's just not worth talking about back and forth if we dis agree. You won't change my mind/opinion and I won't try to change yours.

This whole topic is about the government trying to prevent the citizens doing something the government has done for years and has nothing to do with U.S. defense, IMO.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Ok haha ekim nice signature, I needed to google it but it fits

I am with ekim on this (ok what does ekim mean? sorry side note). The fact is the government is putting people like us on a watch list for doing what the government is doing!!!

THEY are stocking ammo and food and AMRAPs and ammo and food and.... but WE PREPPERS are on a watch list? !!! 

I'm not saying the Guvment doesn't need to be prepared but why put people that do the same on a watch list?


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Do you really think that the FBI has the manpower and resources to follow everyone that makes suspicious purchases?


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Meangreen said:


> Do you really think that the FBI has the manpower and resources to follow everyone that makes suspicious purchases?


Not everyone, but take out the 99% that have no clue we are down to 3 million or so. Then you track blog posts, face book, etc

Yes I do.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Montana Rancher said:


> Not everyone, but take out the 99% that have no clue we are down to 3 million or so. Then you track blog posts, face book, etc
> 
> Yes I do.


The agencies are not as high speed as their made out in TV and movies. The technology, manpower, and budget just isn't there.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> The agencies are not as high speed as their made out in TV and movies. The technology, manpower, and budget just isn't there.


It all boils down to money and the government doesn't care about debt. As far as the technology, I would say it's pretty good and with the way things look now, they don't even care if they have the right answers. They will do what ever they feel they must and the media will go along. For man power, money and free stuff seems to be working so far. If something doesn't go their way they don't even seem to care, they just try again and lie as needed.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

The government may not but for the agencies, budget is everything. Look try this, grab your phonebook and turn to the blue pages and find the closest FBI office. Unless you live in a major city, there isn't one close by and many of the offices only have two agents. Next think about who will be calling to report suspicous activity, the store owners? Not really good for business and who actually takes the time.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

ekim said:


> It all boils down to money and the government doesn't care about debt. As far as the technology, I would say it's pretty good and with the way things look now, they don't even care if they have the right answers. They will do what ever they feel they must and the media will go along. For man power, money and free stuff seems to be working so far. If something doesn't go their way they don't even seem to care, they just try again and lie as needed.


Can you give some examples of such cases?


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## CourtSwagger (Jan 3, 2013)

Drt4lfe made an excellent point. If you pay in cash, they don't know who you are. The world is scary enough without creating more boogeymen. I personally don't believe that the government is at all concerned with my activities, and as was stated earlier, if I can assist them in protecting our country and its freedoms in a lawful manner, I will. I consider it to be my duty.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Well, with the run on ammo, the govt will have its hands full, tracking and ID ing all the people. As for bulk food and lts purchases, here in NM, everybody knows not to go to Walmart on the 1st or 15th, becouse alot of people here buy bulk. I mean, serious bulk, families at walmart and Sams with 4 carts full of stuff. 
The govt has an endless supply of funds, they just print more.....now manpower- they are deffinately thin. 
I spoke with a fireman and a sherriff a few mornings ago, we didn't get to in depth, cause we were standing in a parkinglot freezing our butts off, but they are still underpaid, understaffed, and very dedicated...The fireman I have known for 10 years+, He is an outstanding individual, and the sheriff I have seen around for 20 years, And he seems standup..
I believe this terrorist stuff is just another way to alienate gunowners from "normal people"....


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## Old Man (Dec 10, 2012)

Our goverment has come a long way from the day's of ruby ridge and waco.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Ya not really. The thing that you all need to keep in mind is, and I know this will sound like an insult but, you don't matter. THe government doesn't give a shit about you nor does most people you interact with on a daily basis. You say, "Yes I do" no you don't,the government doesn't even really know you exist and unless your in a large group causing a lot of problems your not even a blip. If you actually believed this crap you wouldn't be on this sight but because it strokes your ego, you like to think of yourself as a threat. Like I said not meant as an insult.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> Can you give some examples of such cases?


IMO, in your case, it wouldn't matter what I or anyone one else said/posted. If you don't believe it's happening then what could be said to change your mind. Your views tend to put you on their side, IMO.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I find it so hard to believe that people look at me and think I'm a nut case for being a prepper and for being suspicious of the government. I explain to them all, the hand writing on the wall. That makes me wonder if the conspiracy people are on target. I don't want to believe that our government could ever turn on us as has happened in so many other countries but as we've seen too many times, HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF! For the sake of our children and those still to be born, I pray I'm wrong about the government. But damn, they sure manage to give the conspiracy people an awful lot of reasons to believe the government is planning something. It always starts slow. A little at a time and then suddenly, one day, we ask what the f--k happened. I haven't gone over to the dark side (conspiracy) yet, but I can certainly understand why some have given into the conspiracy ideas, considering.

I feel too many people are like my wife and say they can't do anything to change things because "I am just one person". Too many people are still ok with the way things are going as long as they have money to buy their necessities and therefore buy into the rhetoric of charismatic politicians. They don't want to admit that WE the PEOPLE have turned the country over to a few people. Maybe these people started out in politics with altruistic ideas, but too many have gone over to the dark side. We seem to now have an elitist group running the country who want to tell us what to eat, how big a soft drink we can buy, that mothers must breast feed their babies, and how doctors will administer to the sick. Chicago and I assume other cities have a myriad of cameras all over the place, "to increase our safety and prevent crimes". Now we have (or soon will have) drones in the air for the same reason, shades of George Orwell's "1984". I really think people don't want to believe that government can turn on us.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Old Man said:


> Our goverment has come a long way from the day's of ruby ridge and waco.


And even back then "they" had spread their tentacles in a lot of places. For example, infiltrating the group that Timothy McVeigh was a part of and then letting the plan proceed to avoid blowing their cover. 
And besides, by eliminating anyone who is registered Democratic they can eliminate a vast group from suspicion, then winnow it further by age group, veteran status, Tea Party support, etc. Simple computer programs tell those who would enslave us who the biggest threats are and therefore need to be watched.
I firmly believe the big push by the VA to get as many vets on the PTSD disability rolls is deliberate to deny them access to weapons. Since the current VA backlog is 2 years average on disabilty claims the government does not have to worry about paying claims before Obama is crowned King.
I love my country. I was willing to die for my country at one point in time. I love the ideal that is America. I do not trust the American government, nor do I trust 52% of the American people.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

drt4lfe said:


> When Tech is on your side, you don't need as much manpower....sky is full of satellite's....well equipped planes, helo's....and now drones. Not everyone can be watched...but, there are people, groups that are being watched. If manpower is so thin how did Ruby Ridge and Waco happen ? Randy Weaver was entrapped over several months to cut down shotgun barrels.....Did they ever find all the ( illegal ) automatic weapons at Waco ? Both of these cases required manpower over months that resulted in every agency involved looking like the idiots they are. And every supervisor/ agent involved broke there oath looking to be the next big super agent, and they got bit in the ass because they violated Constitutional Rights and Laws...In current situation Obama and his Zombies would have gotten away with it...Am I being watched ? Doubtful, but I don't care either. I know who the enemy is. Being watched or deemed someone the goverment has to keep any eye on without just cause is just more idiots trying to move up and justify there needless jobs...


Waco and Ruby Ridge must never be forgotten and keep in mind that even then we were under a Democratic president.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Bear in mind that every form of electronic communication is recorded annd checked for "key words". Those communications with key words in them are read or listened to and the people involved are put on a watch list. I am sure that I am on at least one list and probably more. 
The government agencies have taps on every main communications hub in the USA. I could post the list of watch words if anyone is interested. It would probably surprise you to know some of the words they use to watch for terrorist activity.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I'll take that list. Please post


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

paraquack said:


> I'll take that list. Please post


It seems I have to convert it to a picture format - I will scan it and then post it.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Let me try again,

1. "only what they are allowed by the constitution"

This is a big source of your issue I know, for you don't agree with what our constitution has to say on nebulous terms like insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare. Quite simply you view these terms different then me, I view them different then liberals, and they view them different then conservatives - etc etc etc.

2. "guilty as prepping as any one"

I guess I find promote the general welfare and provide for the common defense as grounds for our government prepping, and of course they use other peoples' money. I'm sure you wouldn't want them to just create the money out of thin air do you? Who's money are they then suppose to use to this endeavor? And as for permission I believe our constitution granted that right to the congress, with approval of the president and if its wrong to be retracted by the supremes - to which it has not. I don't believe our constitution means they need your personal approval - does it?

3. You seem to be theorizing that gathering data on those who "prep" as labeling preppers terrorist. I view it different. To me its profiling and I'm all for profiling at airports, legal border crossings and car stops. Profiling would save us tax dollars in almost every case because is narrows the search. That is their point - would be terrorist would be preppers - that does not mean all preppers are terrorist as some want to think they are suggesting.

4. You said "The government doesn't do what they do to help the citizens, but to save themselves from the citizens" and I would disagree. Now the secret service does protect some government officials and as far as I know the only people who have ever tried to hurt the politicians they protect are US citizens, but they also strive to protect them from enemy combatants and would be terrorists from other nations.

I don't like a lot of things our government does, I would change a lot of things, but I don't agree with folks who view themselves as "constitutionalist" when really they are referring to a different take on the constitution then the majority of American's have accepted. Vast majority I would say. I toyed with the "Libertarian" point of view once, thought they might be for me, and like any group (liberal, conservative, libertarian) there are extremes and I found extremist in the libertarian POV to be far more threatening and demeaning then the extremist on the right or left. They, the extremist among libertarians, made me want to oppose the libertarian POV as much as I possibly could and I do so routinely on every forum I attend. You see I happen to believe while government is now messed up that government ran better would be good for us all.



ekim said:


> I would agree if the government did only what they are allowed by the Constitution, which they don't. The government is just as guilty of prepping as any one, but they do it with others money and don't ask for permission and at the same time consider the free legal citizens that do the same an enemy/terrorist. Every person in government is guilty of the same thing, "what they allow, they encourage", when they say nothing, help with the process or work to infringe on free legal citizens doing nothing illegal. There is not a bigger hoarder/prepper, then the U.S. Government, period! The government doesn't do what they do to help the citizens, but to save themselves from the citizens. NO,I don't want to help government the.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

paraquack said:


> I'll take that list. Please post


I have seen the list as well. It was widely propogated on the internet 8 or 10 years ago when the existance of the government computer surveilance program code named CARNIVORE was first discovered. There is a reason all internet traffic is routed through Langley, Virginia.
The traffic is computer screened for certain words which if discovered alerts humans to take a closer look.
And from what I have heard, CARNIVORE is old stuff now, they have much better programs.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

ekim said:


> IMO, in your case, it wouldn't matter what I or anyone one else said/posted. If you don't believe it's happening then what could be said to change your mind. Your views tend to put you on their side, IMO.


So in other words you got nothing. I work and live in FACTS not fairy tales and conspiracy theories so if that isn't your side than I would say I'm better off.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

You have heard of the patriot act?


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

PaulS said:


> You have heard of the patriot act?


Yes and how did it affect you? Any successful suits against it? Most of it has expired but in it's time, it was a successful tool against muslim extremists. Any other facts you would like to know? I'm a founding member of the DHS and I can tell you unless you were involved in terrorist activities against the American people, the patriot act did not affect you.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Again, I hope I'm wrong. But as my daddy told me, "If you see what looks like goose foot prints on the shore, what looks like goose crap in the grass near the shore, and sounds that sound like a goose honking, but can't see it, it still might be a goose. "They" might not have any evil purposes in mind for the things they are doing, but "they" sure make it look that way. Not every despotic ruler comes to power and says, all right everyone, from now on its my way or death. They usually seem to slowly change things, build up a loyal followers who will do the bidding, and eventually let their true colors show thru. To my way of looking, there are a lot of signs out there that make me watchful. Some are from the jihadists, some are from the drug cartels, some are from well meaning, naive people who want to stop gun violence and think it can be accomplished by making legal gun owners turn their firearms into the government. As asked by thousands of legal firearm owners, "What makes you think criminals will turn their guns in?" "We" can't control the bad, or insane people's use of firearms, but "they" want to do something and that something is to try and control firearms. If I go and spend my money to by food, supplies, firearms, etc., it's my money. If nothing ever happens, I guess I'll probably kick myself for spending the money on prepping , but if the SHTF, I'll wish I spent 100 times as much money.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

drt4lfe said:


> Our Goverment, such as it is, cares a lot about the sheep that fund there agenda's.....never in my lifetime has such crap been going on and I don't like the attacks against the Constitution....from the lowest level to the highest, Police road blocks for one, Due to someone fighting the ILLEGAL stops, now LEO has to advertise when and where the stops will be held and have it setup where it can be bypassed, since it is an ILLEGAL stop....but yet it continue's.....That is one reason why i call bullchit to all the LEO's who say they will not follow any un-Constitutional order or law's....they are doing it everyday....Hypocrites, and If the Fed's ever roll into there little town ? will they pull there gun's on the Fed's ? Hell no, they will lay down and say, What can I do for you ? cause again, they will protect there position and paycheck.... IF any agency stooge really believed in the Constitution ? Ruby Ridge and Waco would have never happened, Constitutional rights were violated at every step in those two cases, and millions in compensation was paid out due to those acts....The ATF shooter who shot and killed Weaver's wife did not believe in his Oath, nor did he follow or honor it...there are plenty like him in every agency right now, plenty....the Goverment is different now....it's way worse.....


You should really research the two cases that your talking about and find out what happened to the people involved. As usual the people really responsible at the top walked but many of the agents went to prison for civil rights violations and the shooter went to prison for second degree murder. No agency is perfect as with anything in life and these people need to be dealt with accordingly.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Just like "Fast and Furious"


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

There are 2.65 million employees of the Federal Government executive branch. You really think they are all going to be perfectly good little angels with not one being bad? My city of 265,000 suffers a lot of crime but quite a bit less than that perpetrated by the 2.65 million federal employees.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I kind of expect the big shots to know what's going on, and control the little shots who make it all happen. It just seems when Washington does something wrong, it's really, really wrong. Then they try to pretend it didn't happen or cover it up in some way. All it does is foster even more paranoia. Just because I'm paranoid, does mean someone isn't out to get me.


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## Old Man (Dec 10, 2012)

Hey, I'm just a good ole boy from Mississippi. I haven't got a cute what the government has or has not. But I know my little part of Mississippi is changing, and I am not sure for the better. Is the government watch me! I will know that when they show up at my place in swat gear. But the question for me is do I trust my government? Not likely!


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Amen!


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

paraquack said:


> Just like "Fast and Furious"


Yes exactly like Fast and Furious. The ones at the top walk and we have three dead agents and thousands of dead Mexicans


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

paraquack said:


> I kind of expect the big shots to know what's going on, and control the little shots who make it all happen. It just seems when Washington does something wrong, it's really, really wrong. Then they try to pretend it didn't happen or cover it up in some way. All it does is foster even more paranoia. Just because I'm paranoid, does mean someone isn't out to get me.


Well said! I know whats going on on my end and I can control that but no idea whats happening on the other.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Ripon said:


> There are 2.65 million employees of the Federal Government executive branch. You really think they are all going to be perfectly good little angels with not one being bad? My city of 265,000 suffers a lot of crime but quite a bit less than that perpetrated by the 2.65 million federal employees.


A lot of emotion there Ripon but any hard facts. YOu seem to like to lump everyone together, do you do that with everyone, White, Black?


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Its conjecture and I believe it. I had the same debate with someone about our troops after Abu Grab. We move 200,000 "kids" several thousand miles and expect them to behave like perfect little angels and have a big dither when 7 or 10 of them go off base; yet on a daily basis we have 20 arrests in a community of 200,000 people in America. And yes I still believe that the people of my current residence, approximately 260,000 of them, probably commit more crime that is caught and prosecuted then the 2.65 million federal employees nationwide - I just don't expect that later number to be perfect like some people do.



Meangreen said:


> A lot of emotion there Ripon but any hard facts. YOu seem to like to lump everyone together, do you do that with everyone, White, Black?


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Prepping by laying in supplies, guns and ammo within the law is not illegal, so they can't touch anybody for it.
Even criticising the President and politicians is not illegal and you can't get arrested for that either.
But if you start talking crazy about assassinating people and bragging about your arms cache and bunkers and stuff, that's when you're liable to get a SWAT team at your door.
That's exactly what happened to a USA guy last year (his case was discussed in this forum but i can't find it despite running searches), he lived in a farming area and his worried neighbours and townsfolk tipped off the Law.
So an FBI agent visited him and pretended to be a customer for the guys business (I forget what it was) and they chatted in a friendly way, the agent kept drawing him on the subject of prepping/survival and it worked, the guy began talking wild, so the agent made out his report and a SWAT team was later sent in and found a hoard of illegal guns, so he was arrested.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Ripon said:


> Its conjecture and I believe it. I had the same debate with someone about our troops after Abu Grab. We move 200,000 "kids" several thousand miles and expect them to behave like perfect little angels and have a big dither when 7 or 10 of them go off base; yet on a daily basis we have 20 arrests in a community of 200,000 people in America. And yes I still believe that the people of my current residence, approximately 260,000 of them, probably commit more crime that is caught and prosecuted then the 2.65 million federal employees nationwide - I just don't expect that later number to be perfect like some people do.


It's an unfortunate truth that there will be bad apples. You just can't let the bad apples spoil the barrel. We have a website called, "Trust Betrayed" where photos of federal agents/officers who were arrested for crimes. It's sobering to see and many are arested for civil rights violations.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Lucky Jim said:


> Prepping by laying in supplies, guns and ammo within the law is not illegal, so they can't touch anybody for it.
> Even criticising the President and politicians is not illegal and you can't get arrested for that either.
> But if you start talking crazy about assassinating people and bragging about your arms cache and bunkers and stuff, that's when you're liable to get a SWAT team at your door.
> That's exactly what happened to a USA guy last year (his case was discussed in this forum but i can't find it despite running searches), he lived in a farming area and his worried neighbours and townsfolk tipped off the Law.
> So an FBI agent visited him and pretended to be a customer for the guys business (I forget what it was) and they chatted in a friendly way, the agent kept drawing him on the subject of prepping/survival and it worked, the guy began talking wild, so the agent made out his report and a SWAT team was later sent in and found a hoard of illegal guns, so he was arrested.


I agree, talking and complaining and storing food and water and other supplies is not illegal. But have you noticed that drone hanging around your house about 37,000 up? Fox news is thinking about investing $200 million in anti-missile systems for their buildings. LOL


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Dunno bout drones 37,000 feet up, but I think it's the orbiting Klingons and Romulans we should worry about.
Anyway whoever's up there can look at my house all they want, all they'll see is a grey slate roof, what do i care? ha ha ..


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

I just found this article about the prepper guy I mentioned who was busted by SWAT. 
Notice halfway down it says criticising Obama is NOT illegal, it was just his crazy talk that worried neighbours who thought he might be stockpiling weapons and stuff, so they tipped off the Law who found he'd got illegal guns so that's the rap they nailed him on.

Doomsday Prepper Raided By FBI For Criticizing Obama


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Maybe we shouldn't be opening our mouth on a public forum like this. You never know when the SS is reading.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

I think this one probably had more to do with the felony prohibition from gun ownership. Although being heavily armed an excon and criticizing the president probably didn't help.


It really is unfortunate cause he had the guns for so long, that is gun laws though. The system can really screw people over. I can sense the frustration, and the economic loss for the guy. Personally I think it is unfortunate society still victimizes people 20 years later after they've been playing nice for so long. Pardons should be automatic for non moral turpitude issues, or where the person has clearly rehabilitated to society.


"“four shotguns, a .30-30-caliber rifle and two .22-caliber rifles” 
seems pretty minor.


Scrutinizng preppers makes sense of course, because they are prepared for SHTF and WROL.. all it takes is one radicalized prepper to launch a solo attack, and they'd be geared up to do something like that. I don't think preppers should get a get out of scrutiny free card unless they are leaving their weapons at a local armory. Everyone is under scrutiny. Its gun laws... we all know where that is headed in America. not much further that is where. 

In this case he wasn't suppose to have guns and he did. It be nice if everyone could have the guns they wanted, thats not the way the law works though, atleast thats not the way it is up here in Canada.

This is just a case of bad legislation, it exist around most of the world.

Criminals who want guns can still get guns, so it just prevents access to law abiding citizens.


btw by preppers here i mean who have large stores of weapons, ammunition, explosives, body armour, bullet proof vehicles, sensor systems, tacitcal and lethal combat training, etc..

I mean that should be your first line of scrutiny. old ladies with walkers arn't exactly going to pose much of a threat to the military industrial complex, unless they have a red button to press.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I got a bridge for sale if you're interested. Cheap! too


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> You should really research the two cases that your talking about and find out what happened to the people involved. As usual the people really responsible at the top walked but many of the agents went to prison for civil rights violations and the shooter went to prison for second degree murder. No agency is perfect as with anything in life and these people need to be dealt with accordingly.


If you are referencing the FBI shooter at Ruby Ridge as going to prision you are mistaken. Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper who shot Randy Weaver in the back, and then shot and killed Weaver's wife while she was holding her baby, was indicted for manslaughter but the charges were dismissed on grounds of sovereign immunity, whatever the heck that is. He never served time and today is a free man.
Janet Reno, who was in charge during both Ruby Ridge and Waco never got in a lick of trouble either.
General Wesley Clark, who was C.O. of Fort Hood where the Army vehicles and personnel came from that did the final assault at Waco in direct violation of Possee Comitatus never was questioned in the affair.
This country has a proven track record of violently disregarding both common law and the Constitution going back to at least the Bonus March in the early 1930's and probably way before that.
I love my country, I do not trust my government.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Here's an excerpt from another article about the guy who was SWATTED, it's interesting to note that after the police got tipoffs about him they didn't go straight round and kick his door down, they checked him out first by sending an undercover cop to see him, but he talked his way into trouble by apparently talking crazy to the cop.
If he'd kept his kool and talked sensibly and calmly and friendly maybe they wouldn't have taken it any further-

Quote-_"A state police corporal went to Porter's home Nov. 16, posing as a customer for the business Porter runs from his home, the charging document said. Porter got "very irritated" during a discussion of the recent presidential election and "openly admitted to being a prepper," the document said.Porter showed the officer a 10-by-20-foot concrete slab, telling him that beneath it was a bunker with electric, water and septic service that was stocked with food, the charging document said. He also told the officer he buried refrigerators in the woods containing food and guns, the document said.
Porter also showed the officer his surveillance system and a metal box concealed in a log pile, the charging document said"_

PressTV - Prepper raided by police, FBI, SWAT after criticizing Obama


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> This country has a proven track record of violently disregarding both common law and the Constitution going back to at least the Bonus March in the early 1930's and probably way before that.
> I love my country, I do not trust my government.


I would argue the government has a proven track record of blatantly disregarding the Constitution going back to at least 1860. But that would take us well off topic for the forum.

We are right to not trust the government. And love our country.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Inor said:


> I would argue the government has a proven track record of blatantly disregarding the Constitution going back to at least 1860. But that would take us well off topic for the forum.
> 
> We are right to not trust the government. And love our country.


Yes indeed (says the guy who remembers as a kid having Robert E. Lee's birthday off from school :mrgreen.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

You know what guys...your right. Just got another kick to the groin from the government that I have been working for for too many years. I cannot defend the government at any level and I must find a way out. I can't count the work of good men against the evil of the people at the top.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> You know what guys...your right. Just got another kick to the groin from the government that I have been working for for too many years. I cannot defend the government at any level and I must find a way out. I can't count the work of good men against the evil of the people at the top.


 All the is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Do what is right and stand against those in power that have corrupted the agency you serve 
We can take back out Counrty.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> You know what guys...your right. Just got another kick to the groin from the government that I have been working for for too many years. I cannot defend the government at any level and I must find a way out. I can't count the work of good men against the evil of the people at the top.


Just like Smitty says, we need good, honest men in government agencies now more than ever.
What was it that Thomas Paine said about sunshine patriots and winter soldiers in his "Common Sense"?


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Just like Smitty says, we need good, honest men in government agencies now more than ever.
> What was it that Thomas Paine said about sunshine patriots and winter soldiers in his "Common Sense"?


I don't know but I will find out.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> I don't know but I will find out.


It was often mentioned during the Vietnam war between those who went, the Winter Soldiers; and those who ran away, the Sunshine Patriots.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."
Thomas Paine
Dec 19, 1776
The "American Crisis" pamphlet


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one: for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries BY A GOVERNMENT, which we might expect in a country WITHOUT GOVERNMENT, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer. Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him, out of two evils to choose the least. Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expense and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others.

This carries a lot of weight as well.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Billions of Bullets and Thousands of MRAPs, Oh My


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