# confedrate flag



## firefighter72

In my history class we have been going over the confedrate flag. Mainly if it should be allowed in schools. Now alot of people say yes and alot say no. Yes because of the 1st amendment and no because of what it stands for. People are right on the 1st amendment part but alot of people forget what it stands for. It stands for several things mainly the sepration the America, what the south beliaved in, slavery, states rights over fedral rights, etc. Now the flag use to stand for this, but like I said people have forgetten the meaning, or rather changed the meaning. Now what most people think it means is country or rebal. This honestly makes me a bit sad, because it shows that people are forgetting histroy. And we all know what happens when histroy is forgotten or ignored. If a kid walked into school with a Nazi flag that whould be a big deal, but not when kids do it with the rebal flag, And no I'm not comparing the Nazis to the Confedrates. What I'm saying is it's a symbol. If some big company used the swastika as their logo or changed the meaning of it. Do you think people whould care? Mabey at first yes but what about in a hundred years from now when all the ww2 vets have died off and most people forgot what happened in ww2.(like now whith the confedrate flag hundred and some odd years after the civil war.) Now personaly I don't care anymore mainly because people don't know what it stands for. Now they see and think it looks cool, so you can't fix stupid. And just for the record I'm not comparing the Nazi government to the Confedrate states government. I'm just using the Nazi symbol as an example.


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## Jeep

Point taken. And I do not think the Rebel flag should be outlawed anymore than any other symbol.


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## 7515

I'm from Georgia. No way in hell does the Rebel Flag equal a swastika.


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## DerBiermeister

First of all -- what is commonly called the "Confederate Flag" or the "Stars and Bars" is a misnomer. The Confederate flag (and Stars and Bars) is actually this one:









This is actually the Battle Flag of the Army Of Northern Virginia









But who cares if the revisionists take over? It's only our history they are screwing with! :sad:


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## 7515

What is commonly used as the rebel flag is actually the naval jack of the confederacy


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## thepeartree

And was adapted from the British Union Jack because of the support of the South by them.

And the swastica was taken from the Jewish religion (ironically), but the Nazi's reversed the 'arms' direction.


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## thepeartree

And was adapted from the British Union Jack because of the support of the South by them.

And the swastika was taken from the Jewish religion (ironically), but the Nazi's reversed the 'arms' direction.


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## Slippy

Sockpuppet said:


> Most people are not only damned ignorant, but intentionally choose to remain such.


'Nuff Said!

On the subject of the Confederate Flag. I'll fly any flag I choose or display anything I choose on my person or property whenever the hell I please. I also respect your right to do the same on your person or property.

If some Politically Correct Person wants me to stop, well COME AND TAKE IT.


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## thepeartree

I'm gonna wear a prime rib eye. Might as well show your true colors


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## Pir8fan

The stars and bars is a proud part of my heritage. Though my family did not own slaves, several members fought in North Carolina and Georgia regiments. Initially, the war wasn't about slavery. It was about states rights. Lincoln and northern radicals made it about slavery. My ancestors fought for their states.


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## Camel923

People with thin skins scream and stomp their feet to force the majority to their will. Best to just say No. When the crescendo grows louder, say no louder. If black panther stuff, La Rasa and so on are acceptable in public then so are other symbols. Life is a two way street, get used to it. I have two colledge degrees and have read the constitution. Nowhere does it proclaim a right to not be offended.


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## Moonshinedave

States rights over federal rights, I am sorta leaning that way myself.


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## Camel923

Sockpuppet said:


> Oh the irony. :lol:


So I can't type and spell check didn't nab it while watching the Pens game. Big deal.


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## catfisherman

Confederate flag


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## Slippy

Camel923 said:


> ...watching the Pens game.


Evidently no goalies in that game!


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## pheniox17

Thanks for the history lesson


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## Smitty901

Freedom of expression. Just because someone else don't like it is not a reason to prohibit much of anything. I don't like Malcolm X T shirts should they be banned?
I don't like rap so we should ban all Rappers T shirts. Don't like the Chicago bears we should ban their shirts, some things are worth banning.
Question is where does it stop?


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## Wise Prepper

firefighter72 said:


> In my history class we have been going over the confedrate flag. Mainly if it should be allowed in schools. Now alot of people say yes and alot say no. Yes because of the 1st amendment and no because of what it stands for. People are right on the 1st amendment part but alot of people forget what it stands for. It stands for several things mainly the sepration the America, what the south beliaved in, slavery, states rights over fedral rights, etc. Now the flag use to stand for this, but like I said people have forgetten the meaning, or rather changed the meaning. Now what most people think it means is country or rebal. This honestly makes me a bit sad, because it shows that people are forgetting histroy. And we all know what happens when histroy is forgotten or ignored. If a kid walked into school with a Nazi flag that whould be a big deal, but not when kids do it with the rebal flag, And no I'm not comparing the Nazis to the Confedrates. What I'm saying is it's a symbol. If some big company used the swastika as their logo or changed the meaning of it. Do you think people whould care? Mabey at first yes but what about in a hundred years from now when all the ww2 vets have died off and most people forgot what happened in ww2.(like now whith the confedrate flag hundred and some odd years after the civil war.) Now personaly I don't care anymore mainly because people don't know what it stands for. Now they see and think it looks cool, so you can't fix stupid. And just for the record I'm not comparing the Nazi government to the Confedrate states government. I'm just using the Nazi symbol as an example.


Well you haven't forgotten what it stands for cause you clearly never knew! That flag had nothing to do with slavery. If idiots choose to try and make it about racist we cant stop that. The war wasnt mostly about slavery. The KKK was founded by the democratic party. AKA the NORTH. Please educate yourself!


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## Camel923

Slippy said:


> Evidently no goalies in that game!


Correct. It is an all skate


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## Wise Prepper

Camel923 said:


> Correct. It is an all skate


I enjoyed all skates as a kid but never got paid for it :/


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## pheniox17

Wise Prepper said:


> Please educate yourself!


This is not a wise statement, keeping in mind this is more about a failure of the education system in ff72s area...

Maybe better to provide informational links for the kid to assist in his education of the topic so on Monday he can hit the teacher up with "explain this sir" (then with please read and learn or the please educate yourself, not a loose KKK was founded in the north) just saying...


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## Wise Prepper

I dont always approach things appropriately when people are speaking as if they are educated about a subject but clearly have no clue. I could do better. Let me ask you a question. What if i said aborigines are so mistreated over there and they deserve everything the govt can give them cause they were so mistreated. FYI i am very informed about aborigines and the situation over there, but you should get my point.


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## DerBiermeister

break out the popcorn ::clapping::


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## Wise Prepper

KKK Terrorist Arm of the Democratic Party | National Black Republican Association

States' Rights


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## Inor

FF -

Like you (I think), I was raised a Yankee and was taught in school about what a wonderful president Lincoln was. I blindly believed it for a number of years. In my twenties, I became wildly interested in learning more about Mr Lincoln's war. Once I got past the sugar coated history books and started digging into the actual writings of the men that lived through it, I quickly discovered my beliefs were FAR more aligned with the Confederacy than they were with the Union.

Tell your classmates, regardless of what their beliefs of validity of Mr Lincoln's war and his slaughter of over 600,000 innocent Americans, every American should at least honor the sacrifice of the men that fought on both sides. And if anyone is offended by ANY of the Yankee flags or the Confederate flags of the time, they should first have their teeth knocked out and then be shipped off to Cuba like the whiney little hippie bitches they are!

If your teacher has a problem with that, tell him/her to talk to your Uncle Inor and I may ship their sorry ass off to Cuba too!


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## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> People have rights that are derived from God. Government has no rights, but merely authority that is lent to them from the people. It may read as being a trivial matter of terminology, but its an important distinction.
> 
> It would be more accurate for you to state that this is a 10A issue.


I can't tell you how happy I am to see you and I agree on this critical point!


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## pheniox17

Wise Prepper said:


> I dont always approach things appropriately when people are speaking as if they are educated about a subject but clearly have no clue. I could do better. Let me ask you a question. What if i said aborigines are so mistreated over there and they deserve everything the govt can give them cause they were so mistreated. FYI i am very informed about aborigines and the situation over there, but you should get my point.


I would say that's a opinion I wouldn't expect from this page 

But my point was a teenager making a statement over a bit of history (that points out a failure in your education system) and you were correcting, followed by a poor statement, when some supporting documents for the teenager would have been a better use of your time, and armed the said teenager with the information to support a argument with his peers over a important time in USA history)


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## Denton

Firefighter, remember that the victor gets to write the history.

The famous and anonymous Confederate soldier captured after Mr. Lincoln 
sent his troops into the South was asked, "Why do you fight us, Johnny Reb?

"Because you are here," the soldier answered.

The lie is that the South was fighting for slavery. The ultimate truth is that the bravest of our nation were slaughtered. This changed more than the simple politics of the nation.

The worst political fact is that the constitutional republic died the day Lincoln was killed. No matter what anyone thought of him, his one goal was to restore the republic. We all know what happened after his death.

I am a son of the South, and I am damned proud of it.

While I do not agree with all the words of this song, I do understand the feeling behind it. Also, I am a huge fan of Hoyt Axton.


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## Wise Prepper

pheniox17 said:


> I would say that's a opinion I wouldn't expect from this page
> 
> But my point was a teenager making a statement over a bit of history (that points out a failure in your education system) and you were correcting, followed by a poor statement, when some supporting documents for the teenager would have been a better use of your time, and armed the said teenager with the information to support a argument with his peers over a important time in USA history)


But what would be your reply if i was a school age student from there that said that? Dont think just type... Once again i could have said it better but my tendency is to just type, i know im wrong for this but its what i do.


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## Denton

Sorry. One more.


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## pheniox17

Wise Prepper said:


> But what would be your reply if i was a school age student from there that said that? Dont think just type... Once again i could have said it better but my tendency is to just type, i know im wrong for this but its what i do.


With the question, my response would be how did you formulate that opinion?? And is it yours or someone else's (someone else's I would encourage formulating your own)

To the admission not the best line to use, thanks, but i personally was hoping for a lesson on the flag and a little bit of USA history (that's not overly glorified, as you seem very to the point)


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## Zed

Swastika wasn't Jewish..
Its an Indian Symbol of auspiciousness and purity.
Even today its painted on doors and temples in rural India to welcome Mother Goddess


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## pheniox17

PS. I would also point the teenager to a historical topic known as the Vietnam war, and get then to look into how people that fort for this country came home to, including the term baby killers with a follow up those vets ask for nothing, no apology, no free education...


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## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> Then we agree upon much more than either one of us suspect.


I hope so. Our nation is crumbling. The understanding and faith of our forefathers are our only hope of surviving.


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## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> This political experiment that term America, is not a destination, but rather a journey. Its rife with both success and failure, and people such as you and I can disagree upon the means for our Republic, without becoming disagreeable.
> 
> Often times its the mere perception of our neighbors viewpoints that cause conflict, when it should lead to an opportunity to work for better dialogue in order to ascertain more than a superficial understanding between parties. Inquiring upon the rationale for one's position may not lead to agreement, but rather an understanding that may change one's own position as well.


Let's make this perfectly clear; this nation was founded upon the law of nature and nature's God, with the understanding that a sovereign man is endowed with certain unalienable rights, and not government has authority over those rights. The obligation of the government, under this constitution, is to protect those rights, first and foremost. Anything short of doing so places that government in the category of tyranny and arbitrary rule. Period. Regardless of what fabricated reason or excuse offered or asserted.


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## Old SF Guy

firefighter72 said:


> In my history class we have been going over the confederate flag. Mainly if it should be allowed in schools. Now alot of people say yes and alot say no. Yes because of the 1st amendment and no because of what it stands for. People are right on the 1st amendment part but alot of people forget what it stands for. It stands for several things mainly the separation the America, what the south believed in, slavery, states rights over federal rights, etc. Now the flag use to stand for this, but like I said people have forgotten the meaning, or rather changed the meaning. Now what most people think it means is country or rebal. This honestly makes me a bit sad, because it shows that people are forgetting history. And we all know what happens when history is forgotten or ignored. If a kid walked into school with a Nazi flag that whould be a big deal, but not when kids do it with the rebal flag, And no I'm not comparing the Nazis to the Confederates. What I'm saying is it's a symbol. If some big company used the swastika as their logo or changed the meaning of it. Do you think people would care? Maybe at first yes but what about in a hundred years from now when all the ww2 vets have died off and most people forgot what happened in ww2.(like now with the confederate flag hundred and some odd years after the civil war.) Now personaly I don't care anymore mainly because people don't know what it stands for. Now they see and think it looks cool, so you can't fix stupid. And just for the record I'm not comparing the Nazi government to the Confederate states government. I'm just using the Nazi symbol as an example.


Firefighter...I will be kind because you are young and lack wisdom... First ..the Swastika was originally a religious symbol..that once used by Nazi's forever ruined it's original intent.

More importantly, your knowledge of the south and of the confederacy is merely a product of revisionist history.

Although, slavery was practiced all throughout the US in the early years of our nation, it also was practiced throughout the world, involving more than just blacks. Go back to your bible for references. But there had existted slavery, and indentured servitude for for thousands of years.

Our early fore-fathers did believe in "All men are created equal", personal opinions aside, they recognized the cancer of oppression. They also understood that a nation that had slavery could not just over night end that slavery. Why? It would create an immediate collapse of the economy, and create an immediate group who could not sustain themselves. In other words... Slave owners couldn't afford to pay all those slaves minimum wage, so they couldn't grow there crops and former slaves would starve to death.

So an idea was enacted..the slowing and eventual stop of the importation of slaves. and the freeing of slaves which would be tied to the costs of the agricultural products of the south. In the North they had the industrial complex and a very low need for slaves so it was easier to switch there than the agricultural south which still had relatively low return on the crop yield.

Now this great North that you seem to think was better..had a higher population per state of white folks than blacks..where as the south being farm land where acres and acres of crops where needed to equal the factory earnings had a much lower white to black ratio. This also meant that as long as Black were not counted in the census as citizens the North had a greater number of Representatives in the House. Giving them control of that body of congress. And since there where more Northern states at that time than southern they also controlled the senate.

So with this control they could do things like establish taxation on the export of agricultural products, while lowering the taxes that affected the North. Now bring in the south...who said..if you think that all men are created equal then you must consider blacks to be an equal part of the citizenry. The North says oh no... they aren't equal, fearing that the south slave owners would just use there slave votes to pass more laws in favor of slavery or against the north. So they decide on the 3/5th compromise, where a black man is counted as 3/5th of a white man. But hen the North rebelled against that and this led to decisions of the south to begin to secede from the union.

Also understand that the Civil War was mainly about State's rights over federalism. In other words...the 10th amendment to the US constitution. THose powers not directly afforded the Federal Government are reserved for the States. You see young man...back then folks where Virginians or New Yorkers first, and US citizens second. This Country was known as "These United States of America"...United States...plural...not "The United States of America" where people who lived in New York could live as New Yorkers liked and People in Virginia lived as Virginians liked...

Think about how today California and New York want us to live as they dictate....this war created the ability and the conditions where they can do that. Before it didn't exist.

Now back to my point...you cannot end slavery in a nation that practices it until you have the means to employ and afford to pay for the labor of those slaves unless you practice mass deportation. By lowering the return on crops that the south sold via Taxations and price controls, the North created the conditions where the south would have had to crumble before they could fore go slavery.

My advice young man...Read som history books that arent given to you by your high school.

OK...let the criticism begin...I'm ready.


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## Denton

> Also understand that the Civil War was mainly about State's rights over federalism. In other words...the 14th amendment to the US constitution.


The amendment that placed everyone onto the federal plantation, making the federal government the slave owners.


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## Old SF Guy

I have corrected my statement...I meant the 10th...but the 14th became the true slave master


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## pheniox17

Old SF Guy said:


> Firefighter...I will be kind because you are young and lack wisdom... First ..the Swastika was originally a religious symbol..that once used by Nazi's forever ruined it's original intent.
> 
> More importantly, your knowledge of the south and of the confederacy is merely a product of revisionist history.
> 
> Although, slavery was practiced all throughout the US in the early years of our nation, it also was practiced throughout the world, involving more than just blacks. Go back to your bible for references. But there had existted slavery, and indentured servitude for for thousands of years.
> 
> Our early fore-fathers did believe in "All men are created equal", personal opinions aside, they recognized the cancer of oppression. They also understood that a nation that had slavery could not just over night end that slavery. Why? It would create an immediate collapse of the economy, and create an immediate group who could not sustain themselves. In other words... Slave owners couldn't afford to pay all those slaves minimum wage, so they couldn't grow there crops and former slaves would starve to death.
> 
> So an idea was enacted..the slowing and eventual stop of the importation of slaves. and the freeing of slaves which would be tied to the costs of the agricultural products of the south. In the North they had the industrial complex and a very low need for slaves so it was easier to switch there than the agricultural south which still had relatively low return on the crop yield.
> 
> Now this great North that you seem to think was better..had a higher population per state of white folks than blacks..where as the south being farm land where acres and acres of crops where needed to equal the factory earnings had a much lower white to black ratio. This also meant that as long as Black were not counted in the census as citizens the North had a greater number of Representatives in the House. Giving them control of that body of congress. And since there where more Northern states at that time than southern they also controlled the senate.
> 
> So with this control they could do things like establish taxation on the export of agricultural products, while lowering the taxes that affected the North. Now bring in the south...who said..if you think that all men are created equal then you must consider blacks to be an equal part of the citizenry. The North says oh no... they aren't equal, fearing that the south slave owners would just use there slave votes to pass more laws in favor of slavery or against the north. So they decide on the 3/5th compromise, where a black man is counted as 3/5th of a white man. But hen the North rebelled against that and this led to decisions of the south to begin to secede from the union.
> 
> Also understand that the Civil War was mainly about State's rights over federalism. In other words...the 10th amendment to the US constitution. THose powers not directly afforded the Federal Government are reserved for the States. You see young man...back then folks where Virginians or New Yorkers first, and US citizens second. This Country was known as "These United States of America"...United States...plural...not "The United States of America" where people who lived in New York could live as New Yorkers liked and People in Virginia lived as Virginians liked...
> 
> Think about how today California and New York want us to live as they dictate....this war created the ability and the conditions where they can do that. Before it didn't exist.
> 
> Now back to my point...you cannot end slavery in a nation that practices it until you have the means to employ and afford to pay for the labor of those slaves unless you practice mass deportation. By lowering the return on crops that the south sold via Taxations and price controls, the North created the conditions where the south would have had to crumble before they could fore go slavery.
> 
> My advice young man...Read som history books that arent given to you by your high school.
> 
> OK...let the criticism begin...I'm ready.


And this is why I like you osfg...


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## Inor

Old SF Guy said:


> Also understand that the Civil War was mainly about State's rights over federalism. In other words...the 10th amendment to the US constitution. THose powers not directly afforded the Federal Government are reserved for the States. You see young man...back then folks where Virginians or New Yorkers first, and US citizens second. This Country was known as "These United States of America"...United States...plural...not "The United States of America" where people who lived in New York could live as New Yorkers liked and People in Virginia lived as Virginians liked...


THAT is why the South fought against Lincoln's tyranny. Lincoln gave us the welfare state we loathe today.

Look at the Transcontinental Railroad... It was completed in 1869 and hailed as a great achievement. But how did the government get the land to lay the tracks for it? That law grabbing the land was rammed through Congress in 1863 (during the war) when almost half the states did not have a vote in who got compensated and how. If you dig into it, much of the land for the Transcontinental Railroad in the east was stolen from the original land owners (due to Mr Lincoln's war) and given to the railroads. The Transcontinental Railroad, that we were all taught to revere as a great American achievement is really the first example of American corporatism (where the government picks and chooses which corporations win and lose) as far as I can tell.


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## Old SF Guy

Inor said:


> THAT is why the South fought against Lincoln's tyranny. Lincoln gave us the welfare state we loathe today.
> 
> Look at the Transcontinental Railroad... It was completed in 1869 and hailed as a great achievement. But how did the government get the land to lay the tracks for it? That law grabbing the land was rammed through Congress in 1863 (during the war) when almost half the states did not have a vote in who got compensated and how. If you dig into it, much of the land for the Transcontinental Railroad in the east was stolen from the original land owners (due to Mr Lincoln's war) and given to the railroads. The Transcontinental Railroad, that we were all taught to revere as a great American achievement is really the first example of American corporatism (where the government picks and chooses which corporations win and lose) as far as I can tell.


The very first case of Eminent domain...LOL


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## Old SF Guy

My very good friend whom I first met when I was wearing a hat with a rebel flag on it said he found it offensive. After a case of beer and a history lesson from me...he said...That makes perfect sense...Why haven't I ever heard that? I said...because we lost....well not really lost....we have a cease fire in place...at the moment.


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## Inor

Old SF Guy said:


> The very first case of immanent domain...LOL


Not the first case, but the first *abuse* as near as I can tell.


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## Old SF Guy

I stand corrected sir


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## Old SF Guy

When old Fire fighter gets back from school tomorrow he's gonna be like..."WTF????" Its way past the boys bed time you know.


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## Inor

Sockpuppet said:


> A serious violation of societal rules may both sever or limit for a period of time to fully exercise those rights, but such can only be accomplished by a means of due process.


I hope you do not really mean what your words are saying to me.

Are you saying that a simple majority of folks who find my actions in violation of "societal rules" (I.E societal "norms") decide to arrest me, it is okay? So if a majority of people in my neighborhood find my Gadsden Flag offensive, I should be arrested for flying it?


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## ApexPredator

lol try having dixie as a ring tone both at work and DMV god almighty those are funny times. thank god I got a good 100lbs on most ppl. One point that I try to bring up when these discussions happen is working conditions the conditions in the the north were absolutly brutal child labor indentured servitude was still around ****ing forget osha and workers comp honestly think id rather be a slave then a factory worker in the north free or not.


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## ApexPredator

No offense sock but if it aint in the profile dont claim it you dont wanna talk about fine dont talk about dont mention dont alude to bringing it up. Besides i dont think this forum can survive OSFG being banned again missing some of the older guys.


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## ApexPredator

Personally I beg to differ I WISH THOSE DAM PAC CLERKS WOULD QUIT ****ING GOING TO THE RANGE AND JUST FIX MY GOD DAMN ERB. They cant shoot now and they wont be a dam bit better when they get back.


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## ApexPredator

Friend having stood there looking into the abyss and realize it for what it is and what it does to a man you appricieate the abyss in other men that recognize it and detest it and when someone else speaks of it and you dont think they have stared as you have stared then its time to return the sheep to the flock and run with the other dogs. 
I dont believe god created all men equal. I do believe he is the final judge but what we speak of here is what are the sacrifices made for society thus how i judge a man so yes that man that signs up to be the cook in a time of war is counted less a man in my book than the man who signed for infantry but I dont care that he is less a man just how good a cook he is but a cook he is and shall remain when I want advice on eggs ill consult him otherwise he should not mention his "experiance" which you give no referance to and we cannot therefore assign it wieght. 

The closeist I have come to murdering a man was the DOC that delievered my son and the rest of the dam floor so no not all ****ing bleeding hearts are created equal this too I measure and award merit as its deserved.


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## ApexPredator

LOL maybe its cuss I am younger but he brought up experiances think id like to hear um or call bs.


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## pheniox17

So much for my free history lesson instead I walk into a bar fight....


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## Old SF Guy

pheniox17 said:


> So much for my free history lesson instead I walk into a bar fight....


As so many history lesson are given in America my friend


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## ApexPredator

just gotta live in ther here and now brother sometimes you just gotta get to history makin


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## ApexPredator

debatable with a boot to the ass but then i might just be feeling a little rebel.


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## ApexPredator

Pheonix heard you guys clipped some isis birds wings the other day howd that play out in aussie land.


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## pheniox17

Old SF Guy said:


> As so many history lesson are given in America my friend


Well nothing gets a point across better than a punch in the face 

But one question, according to a old work mate, Texas never signed the original constitution (or a amendment or something) I can't remember details but something that if tx wants to they can become a independent state


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## Old SF Guy

pheniox17 said:


> Well nothing gets a point across better than a punch in the face
> 
> But one question, according to a old work mate, Texas never signed the original constitution (or a amendment or something) I can't remember details but something that if tx wants to they can become a independent state


To my knowledge they are the only state that can legally become independent if the state chooses. and if they do then all the employment gains and growth we as a nation has proclaimed immediately becomes negative numbers....because without texas we have no economic growth.


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## ApexPredator

Id help them try but obummer hasnt given a dam about shit anyways. I do believe they can as texas was once a independent territory that broke from mexico and then joined the us on its own terms. I am sure the specifics would be debated as obummer has the new branch of the military homeland security storm troopers (a bit like the stars wars(original) ones from what i hear) burn down the state courthouse.


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## oddapple

Sockpuppet said "Are you and oddapple brothers?"

Listen, I try to take that social and intelligence barrier with a cheerful grain of salt. There's no call to try and use me for a cover over the gaping chasm nature and G-d left you. 
(And I am sorry if this is you going bananas because it's real or whatever. Suppose a lot of peanut gallery "world foremost authorities" are starting to dribble talk and in their shoes.)


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## Inor

Damn... All I can say is "damn"...

I am on the left coast this week and decided to go to bed at a reasonable hour for a change and look what happens to the intertubes? :lol:


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## oddapple

I wasn't doing anything until I got snatched for somebody's cheap phony "oh you're speaking japanese!" Baloney and I really do get weary of that when I am in the yhing, let alone invoked when I was being quiet.


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## bennettvm

I would not put the two together as well. But there are a lot of people that do too. If you want to display it or wear it, that is fine. But I don't think it should displayed by any state or local governments.


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## DerBiermeister

Inor said:


> Damn... All I can say is "damn"...
> 
> I am on the left coast this week and decided to go to bed at a reasonable hour for a change and look what happens to the intertubes? :lol:


I'll tell you ... there ain't no way I am going to lose my beauty sleep over an internet pissing contest! :lol:


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## dannydefense

Wow, I missed a lot of this conversation. Let's see if I can summarize everything and catch up;

- Firefighter learned something that they won't readily teach in school (I believe they refer to this as "he got served"),

- Denton and Sockpuppet are over their earlier argument, are officially dating, and may have "gone all the way",

- OSFG knows what the hell he's talking about and his post back on page five should be stickied somewhere and read to your children's children.


----------



## Notsoyoung

The Confederate flag may be a symbol, but allot depends on who is using it as a symbol and for what. The KKK used and still uses it as one, as do some Neo-Nazi's who use it as well as the swastika. The KKK is not only against Blacks, they are also against Jews,Hispanics, Orientals, and even Catholics. The Neo-Nazi's seem to be against everyone but them. Is that how the symbols started? Not really but they have been hi-jacked, and if I were from the South especially, it would really piss me off. The large majority of those who fought for the South did not own slaves, and never intended to. The swastika was a symbol of good luck for many cultures from thousands of years ago, well before Christ. 

I, and my sons in particular have a strange situation. 3 of my ancestors, or to be more precise, my ancestor's brothers were killed fighting for the Union. Another of his brothers lost a leg a Shiloh, and he fought in an Illinois Regiment the whole war. My wife had ancestors that fought for the South in a Georgia and South Carolina regiments. We lived in Georgia for a number of years and it always annoyed me when people moved from up North and then complained about how things were done in Georgia and how much better it was where they came from. Most of the time their complaints were frivolous, such as at the time you couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays unless it was at a place that served food, and then not for take out. To the Northerner's thought that was terrible and showed how "backwards" the State was. Yeah, like you couldn't think of buying enough beer on Saturday to last you through Sunday. My personal reaction was that if you didn't like it, move back to where you came from. I feel the same way about people in Illinois who run around with Confederate flags, telling everyone how f.u.ed up Yankees are. Don't like it? Go back where you came from. 

Frankly in today's society in the United States I think that the whole North-South thing is in truth irrelevant. I think that what is much more important is how you think and live your life then where you live it. Conservative vs Liberal. Socialist vs Capitalist. etc. I am a Libertarian. I guess that means that I am a Right Wing Conservative in some things and a Liberal in others. I suppose that one of the best examples of my beliefs is that I think that if you are an adult and want to take drugs that are now illegal, that is your right as an adult Citizen of the U.S., while at the same time I do not believe that I should have to pay one dime in support of you because you decide to start taking drugs. Let me be clear about that. I think that taking recreational drugs is STUPID and self destructive, but if that is what you really want to do, there isn't a whole that the government can do to stop you, and they shouldn't try. What they should do is ensure that the recreational drugs that you are going to take have some kind of quality control on them. BUT if you can't hold down a job and feed yourself and your family because you are spending all your money on drugs, then go to the local charity for help, not the taxpayer. Stupid actions have bad consequences.

Getting bogged down on where you are from almost seems like some kind of conspiracy being perpetuated by some sort of secret cabal (seems like, not even implying that it is) in order to keep the masses divided. Personally I strongly believe that if there ever was another Civil War in the United States it will not be by geography but by ideology. Already nearly 1/2 of the population in the United States does not pay Federal Income tax. I think that it will be between those who want and demand more from the Government, thus giving the Government more control of their lives, and those want minimal Government interference and allot less being told how they should live their lives.


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## Slippy

dannydefense said:


> Wow, I missed a lot of this conversation. Let's see if I can summarize everything and catch up;
> 
> - Firefighter learned something that they won't readily teach in school (I believe they refer to this as "he got served"),
> 
> - Denton and Sockpuppet are over their earlier argument, are officially dating, and may have "gone all the way",
> 
> - OSFG knows what the hell he's talking about and his post back on page five should be stickied somewhere and read to your children's children.


Add to that;

Too many of us go to bed way too early.

Therefor, Slippy vows to stay up later and... drink more!

(Makin' Mrs Slippy proud daily.)


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## oddapple

There is a difference. In that one, all they wanted was all the money up north and increasing financial control of the South. Part of that was industrialization exceeding agriculture but anyway - what different now is they want all the money and no more Virgil kane or yankee doodle dandy. That the difference.
That you mention relevancy, thought this might be timely for folks who've forgot:"The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down"

Virgil Kane is the name
And I served on the Danville train
'Till Stoneman's cavalry came
And tore up the tracks again

In the winter of '65
We were hungry, just barely alive
By May the 10th, Richmond had fell
It's a time I remember, oh so well

The night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"

Back with my wife in Tennessee
When one day she called to me
"Virgil, quick, come see,
There goes Robert E. Lee!"

Now, I don't mind chopping wood
And I don't care if the money's no good
You take what you need
And you leave the rest
But they should never
Have taken the very best

The night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"

Like my father before me
I will work the land
And like my brother above me
Who took a rebel stand

He was just 18, proud and brave
But a Yankee laid him in his grave
I swear by the mud below my feet
You can't raise a Kane back up
When he's in defeat

The night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"

The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"

Because if you change a few dates and words, that next for everybody.


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## just mike

Wise Prepper said:


> Well you haven't forgotten what it stands for cause you clearly never knew! That flag had nothing to do with slavery. If idiots choose to try and make it about racist we cant stop that. The war wasnt mostly about slavery. The KKK was founded by the democratic party. AKA the NORTH. Please educate yourself!


The KKK was originally started in Jackson Tennessee by Officers of the Southern army in response to carpetbaggers from the north, It was disbanded in the late 1800's. The later iterations were in fact started by members of the Democratic Party to lord over blacks that were starting to actually be elected to office.
The war between the states is correctly referred to in the South as The War of Northern Aggression. Yankees can call it what they wish, as we all know victors write the history.


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## Denton

Hey, Firefighter, the information in this book will probably shock you.

The South Was Right! by Walter Kennedy | Barnes & Noble


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## rice paddy daddy

For more information on this topic, visit the League Of The South webpage.
Official Website of the League of the South!


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Box of frogs said:


> What is commonly used as the rebel flag is actually the naval jack of the confederacy


Exactly. The various other flags used by the Confederacy worked poorly in battle, the Stars & Bars looks a LOT like the Stars & Strips at a distance which lead to great confusion early in the war by both sides, the second battle flag was white and it looked like a surrender flag, the third one was white with a red stripe which STILL looked like a surrender flag at distance, and even the Bonnie Blue was confusing because it looked like a lot of regimental colors.

The Naval Jack is what most people think the "confederate flag" is. The late confederate battle flag was a similar design, but it was square, not rectangular like the Jack was.


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## Gunner's Mate

They may need some of those in M.O. since they are burning American Flags


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## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> It might be a decent book, but there's an appearance that the arguments presented may be a bit one-sided.


Really? So whatever is written by the victors is not one-sided?

Try reading the book. You'll find it enlightening and you'll approve of how the author bent over backward to provide sources.


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## Notsoyoung

If you want to read some good books on the Civil War, read books by the Historian Shelby Foote, who by the way was born and raised in Alabama. The long and the short of it is, BOTH sides were to blame for the war. We have the documents, speeches, diaries, journals, and newspaper articles from both sides from the era. To disregard one point of view because "the victors write the history" is both erroneous and ludicrous in society were the thoughts and actions of the participants and leaders can be easily researched.


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## DerBiermeister

The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (which today is mistakenly called the Confederate Flag) was NOT taken from the Navy Jack. The Navy Jack that resembled the battle flag didn't come into use until 1863.

Read the facts. Scroll down to the Navy Jack section.

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## DerBiermeister

God Bless the state of Mississippi

They are the ONLY state with enough balls to stand up to political correctness.

Flag of Mississippi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Denton

Notsoyoung said:


> If you want to read some good books on the Civil War, read books by the Historian Shelby Foote, who by the way was born and raised in Alabama. The long and the short of it is, BOTH sides were to blame for the war. We have the documents, speeches, diaries, journals, and newspaper articles from both sides from the era. To disregard one point of view because "the victors write the history" is both erroneous and ludicrous in society were the thoughts and actions of the participants and leaders can be easily researched.


Easily researched, now. Easily researched has nothing to do with it actually _being_ researched. How much nonsense is taught in government schooling systems about the founding of this very nation that would cause the founders to wonder what nation was the topic of discourse? How many people rely on the government to explain what was meant by freedom of religion or the right to keep and bear arms, for examples?

Did the South handle things incorrectly? Danged straight. From the way it broke away from the union to how they attempted to form its own government, it did not meet any standards. Still, were people to read that one, well documented book, they would realize a lot of things they take as reality of 1860's South is not true.


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## Denton

Sockpuppet said:


> I stated is that given the background of the authors, that there lies a potential conflict. I also acknowledged that it may in fact, transcended subjectivity and be worth reading.
> 
> Sometimes a cigar, is only a cigar.


What's the difference between you and me regarding the topic of the book? I have the book and have read it.

You view the background of the authors as being dubious. Could that be insight on more than just the authors of that book?


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## Salt-N-Pepper

DerBiermeister said:


> The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (which today is mistakenly called the Confederate Flag) was NOT taken from the Navy Jack.


The Army Of Virgina battle flag is, indeed, not the flag that is commonly referred to today as the confederate flag. It is square. The flag commonly flown is RECTANGULAR, hence it is a representation of the naval jack. Yes, the ANV had their flag first, but again, it's not what is thought of today as the "Confederate Flag" because people today expect flags to be rectangular.

That AVN flag not commonly used out here in the west, because the war was pretty much over by the time that the flag became more popular with other units. About the only time I know for sure that it was used in the west was during the Chickamauga/Chattanooga campaign (Longstreet's core was reassigned to the west for that campaign... that's the flag that flew when Longstreet hit the union right and folded it... but only Longstreet's men carried it. The main flag of the army was the all white with the "southern cross" as the canton.


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## Titan6

To each his own its part of American history...


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## DerBiermeister

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> The Army Of Virgina battle flag is, indeed, not the flag that is commonly referred to today as the confederate flag. It is square. The flag commonly flown is RECTANGULAR, hence it is a representation of the naval jack. Yes, the ANV had their flag first, but again, it's not what is thought of today as the "Confederate Flag" because people today expect flags to be rectangular.
> 
> That AVN flag not commonly used out here in the west, because the war was pretty much over by the time that the flag became more popular with other units. About the only time I know for sure that it was used in the west was during the Chickamauga/Chattanooga campaign (Longstreet's core was reassigned to the west for that campaign... that's the flag that flew when Longstreet hit the union right and folded it... but only Longstreet's men carried it. The main flag of the army was the all white with the "southern cross" as the canton.


I quote to you from my same source:

*Confederate Flag

Designed by William Porcher Miles, the chairman of the Flag and Seal committee, a now popular variant of the Confederate flag was rejected as the national flag in 1861. It was instead adopted as a battle flag by the Army of Northern Virginia under General Lee.[26] Despite never having historically represented the CSA as a country nor officially recognized as one of the national flags, it is commonly referred to as "the Confederate Flag" and has become a widely recognized symbol of the South.[27] It is also known as the rebel flag, Dixie flag, and Southern cross and is often incorrectly referred to as the "Stars and Bars" (the actual "Stars and Bars" is the first national flag, which used an entirely different design).[28] The self-declared Confederate enclave of Town Line, New York, lacking a genuine Confederate flag, flew a version of this flag prior to its 1946 vote to rejoin the Union.
*

I would argue that the average American is NOT differentiating based on squares and rectangles. They are merely seeing an image. That image is of a red field with a blue cross and 13 stars (also referred to as The Southern Cross).

Now I am going to go back to my original statement, and expand on it: That image, whether it be the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, the Battle Flag of the Army of Tennessee, or the Naval Jack --- is NOT the real Confederate Flag. Once again, that flag is this one:








*The Confederate States of America adopted three different national flag patterns between 1861 and 1865. The Provisional Confederate Congress adopted the First National pattern, also referred to as the "Stars and Bars," on March 4, 1861. This pattern flag flew over the Capitol at Montgomery, Alabama, where the Provisional Congress met prior to the bombardment of Fort Sumter in April 1861.*

The thumbnail shown below is the Battle Flag of the Army Of Tennessee -- which for some stupid reason, I cannot delete! :lol: (the thumbnail)


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## n00b-prepper

Can I throw this out there? What is the difference between somebody who flies the Confederate flag at their house and the person who flies a Mexico flag at their house? Especially those people who live in Texas or California. Both flags represent the history and heritage of their respective states. I personally don't mind either flag being flown. But one who agrees with one being flown and not the other is a hypocrite.


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## Slippy

n00b-prepper said:


> Can I throw this out there? What is the difference between somebody who flies the Confederate flag at their house and the person who flies a Mexico flag at their house? Especially those people who live in Texas or California. Both flags represent the history and heritage of their respective states. I personally don't mind either flag being flown. But one who agrees with one being flown and not the other is a hypocrite.


I think the difference in flying the Confederate Flag and the Mexican Flag TODAY is that the Confederate Flag is a historical symbol of reference but the Mexican Flag is representing another country that is still in existence. We are the United States of America.


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## n00b-prepper

I disagree. The Mexico flag is a historical symbol of Texas and California regardless if it is a symbol of a still active country. Mexico and Texas histories are woven through out their culture. Yes, WE are the United States of America, but your still flying a flag of a country that fought against the US.


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## 7515

I bet the OP "FF76" crapped himself when he saw the course his thread took in his absence.....


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## DerBiermeister

n00b-prepper said:


> Yes, WE are the United States of America, but your still flying a flag of a country that fought against the US.


I think it was OSFG who reminded all of us that back then -- states had a LOT more sovereignty than today. Which was the way the founders set up the union.

From Wiki: 
*With origins in the question of states' rights the issue of secession was argued in many forums and advocated from time to time in both the North and South in the decades after (adopting) the Constitution and before the American Civil War. Historian Maury Klein described the contemporary debate: "Was the Republic a unified nation in which the individual states had merged their sovereign rights and identities forever, or was it a federation of sovereign states joined together for specific purposes from which they could withdraw at any time?"[11] He observed that "the case can be made that no result of the [American Civil] war was more important than the destruction, once and for all . . . of the idea of secession".[12]

Historian Forrest McDonald argued that after adopting the Constitution "there were no guidelines, either in theory or in history, as to whether the compact could be dissolved and, if so, on what conditions". However during "the founding era, many a public figure . . . declared that the states could interpose their powers between their citizens and the power of the federal government, and talk of secession was not unknown." But according to McDonald, to avoid resorting to the violence that preceded the Revolution, the Constitution established "legitimate means for constitutional change in the future". In effect, the Constitution "completed and perfected the Revolution".[13]

Whatever the intentions of the Founders, threats of secession and disunion were a constant in the political discourse of Americans preceding the Civil War.*

So the argument can be STRONGLY made that secession is/was a Constitutional right and even a duty IF the Federal Government grossly overstepped its bounds. American as apple pie, as the saying goes.

Couple that with the fact the North invaded the South ... then what you have here is a real conundrum. Did the South really "fight against the US"? Or did they simply abide by the Constitution and defend their homeland?

(I do not expect anyone to really agree with my line of thought -- I just toss it out there to stir things up. )


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## firefighter72

Box of frogs said:


> I bet the OP "FF76" crapped himself when he saw the course his thread took in his absence.....


Ya I'm still trying to process everything. I posted a thread. One day latter there are 10 pages. Wtf lol. I read all the post and I'm going to do my best to responed but I'm going to do so in one long post.


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## firefighter72

Ok were do I start with replaying? Well first I going to say it's safe to say many of you disagreed, but I would like to point out that this is what is being thought in school. (also the school system now is a joke) Also I really don't care if some one flys or wears the flag they have the right too just like any one else. I forget who said it but they said the first amendment was made so someone can say something that you disagree with ... or something like that. Second OSFG thanks for the history book(also you would have happened to been when all this was taking plac there would you lol jk) I wasn't comparing the Nazis to the Confedrates just the use of their symbols, someone point that out by saying how the swastica was a peace symbol. Also I noticed that serveral people said the victor decides histroy this is true, but there are but there are three sides to history the victors side, the losers side, and the truth. Ummmmmm, ya I think that's it for now.


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## Jeep

All I can say is I either learned a ton since the Civil War is not my thing. Or I ingested a ton of Horse shit. I am not being negative, but I don't see Southern Democrats as being good ol boys wanting slavery. Now that I have said that I haven't read specifically anything on Lincoln. I know what I know from 1980's History.


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## pheniox17

ApexPredator said:


> Pheonix heard you guys clipped some isis birds wings the other day howd that play out in aussie land.


Just sending them gifts, via F/A18F with RAAF painted on the side


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## pheniox17

Ps to display of flags, I'm in oz and I proudly display the silver furn (if I was in the USA I would to) 

But its a sporting flag... (I won't display both the Maori or nz outside new Zealand, but each to their own)


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## ApexPredator

bennettvm said:


> I would not put the two together as well. But there are a lot of people that do too. If you want to display it or wear it, that is fine. But I don't think it should displayed by any state or local governments.


LOL civil war emblems are very common in seals of the counties and other offical emblems in the south. I had to explain that to a very ignorant black priciple who kicked my brother in law out of school for wearing my shirt one day it was actually in the schools official seal. After we clearified that issue I qouted a very intelligent man who maybe completed 5th grade he told this to a petioner who came to his door after he explained why they were wrong. "Educated beyond your intelligence".
History is something to be proud of its also something to learn from forget either and well suck start a .45 for the rest of us.


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## Old SF Guy

I believe in freedoms and I also believe in respect. If someone wants to fly a Mexican flag...fine. If you display it along with an American Flag you display them at equal heights or the American flag above the other. to not do so is legal for you but a blatant sign of disrespect and it will be remembered.

But more germane to the issue is should they be restricted as hateful or inciting? I believe that people who have responsibility for the order of institutions can enact dress codes. as long as they are fair and equal then there is no issue...i.e. no display of the Rebel flag...no display of any flag other than our National flag or state flags. No display of inappropriate attire etc.

Schools should be able to practice discretion...but they must be forced to be equally restrictive. No Christian teaching?...OK...but no buddist, no Muslim, no Athiests, no Evolution. To teach one...means you must discuss all. To allow one you must allow all. equally if you demand freedom from religion and creationism...we should be able to demand freedom from evolution and global warming theories. 
Go back to teaching Reading writing and arithmetic, science's (substantive) and chemistry, biology...and fore go teaching crap that is only subjective thoughts of today and we may actually graduate students who can read, write and do basic math. I would say teach history and social studies, but we have proven incapable of divorcing politics from these subjects so leave them to the parents to teach.

I would say put Christianity back in our school and let those who don't like it home school instead of the other way around....but I also don't believe in forcing any religion on anyone.


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## LunaticFringeInc

Box of frogs said:


> View attachment 7073
> 
> 
> View attachment 7074
> 
> 
> View attachment 7075
> 
> 
> View attachment 7076
> 
> 
> I'm from Georgia. No way in hell does the Rebel Flag equal a swastika.


Agreed in no way does it compare as the swastika, its southern pride and a way of life!

This is the one that flies over my home....









Anyone that has a problem with it can go get bent for all I care!


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## Boss Dog

firefighter72 said:


> In my history class we have been going over the confedrate flag. Mainly if it should be allowed in schools. Now alot of people say yes and alot say no. Yes because of the 1st amendment and no because of what it stands for. People are right on the 1st amendment part but alot of people forget what it stands for. It stands for several things mainly the sepration the America, what the south beliaved in, slavery, states rights over fedral rights, etc. Now the flag use to stand for this, but like I said people have forgetten the meaning, or rather changed the meaning. Now what most people think it means is country or rebal. This honestly makes me a bit sad, because it shows that people are forgetting histroy. And we all know what happens when histroy is forgotten or ignored. If a kid walked into school with a Nazi flag that whould be a big deal, but not when kids do it with the rebal flag, And no I'm not comparing the Nazis to the Confedrates. What I'm saying is it's a symbol. If some big company used the swastika as their logo or changed the meaning of it. Do you think people whould care? Mabey at first yes but what about in a hundred years from now when all the ww2 vets have died off and most people forgot what happened in ww2.(like now whith the confedrate flag hundred and some odd years after the civil war.) Now personaly I don't care anymore mainly because people don't know what it stands for. Now they see and think it looks cool, so you can't fix stupid. And just for the record I'm not comparing the Nazi government to the Confedrate states government. I'm just using the Nazi symbol as an example.


Got tired of reading and am being called away, so here is my 2-cents worth.
It is rightly said that "history is written by the victors", usually attributed to Winston Churchill.

Obtain for yourself a copy of the Confederate Constitution, see Article I, Section 9. It forbade any further importation of slaves from outside the country. It was already understood that slavery was a dying institution and would probably have ended on it's own not too much further in American History. Thus it can be correctly stated that no slaves were ever imported on a ship flying a Confederate Flag.

Freeing the slaves was only an afterthought towards winning a victory in war. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the states that had seceded from the north, said to be a tactical maneuver to incite the rebellion of slaves in the south as part of the north's war effort.

A quote from Lincoln about freeing slaves.
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union".
A LETTER FROM PRESIDENT LINCOLN. - Reply to Horace Greeley. Slavery and the Union The Restoration of the Union the Paramount Object. - NYTimes.com

Prior to the War of Northern Aggression, northern states threatened to secede on several occasions when they thought they may not get their way. Only when the south made good on it's promise was there a "war to save the union". All of the generals on both sides, that attended West Point had been taught about the right to secede. 
The Constitutional Right of Secession, by James Spence

Abraham Lincoln wrecked the constitution; suspended Habeas Corpus, threw northern journalists in jail who wrote criticisms of him and began the long journey towards a strong central federal government (something our founding fathers had reason to fear).

I like the following books. I'm sure someone on here will take exception to them. Read and investigate for yourself... and please don't use those worthless text books they give you at school.

The South Was Right! by Walter Kennedy | 9781565540248 | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble

The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War by Thomas DiLorenzo | 9780761526469 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


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## oddapple

""If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union".

Bwahahahaha! No wonder the man was depressed ~


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## turbo6

Discussions like this always turn into a north vs south pissing match. No civilization is without it's share of internal strife throughout it's history. 

We built a pretty good country. Yeah, it's got it's problems but I wouldn't live anywhere else. 

United we stand, divided we fall.


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## oddapple

That's the only hope. That after these present problems are resolved and all burdens on people lightened again that we will return to a solid, prosperous basis.
The fear is that it's going to not be like that, go too far and allow globalism to essentially destroy the race(s) and planet for gain. If we can get back up fast enough and G-d will throw in too, it is a better way to recover. Globalism is the lie of the world but that doesn't mean we aren't in serious jeopardy.


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## Auntie

I have learned a lot from this discussion. I have learned about History, peoples personalities and that I would love to sit around a campfire with quite a few of you.


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## Slippy

Auntie said:


> I have learned a lot from this discussion. I have learned about History, peoples personalities and that I would love to sit around a campfire with quite a few of you.


Yes indeed...But who is the cutest? 

View attachment 7141


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## pheniox17

Slippy said:


> Yes indeed...But who is the cutest?
> 
> View attachment 7141


You and your Aussie cattle dogs


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## ashleydrew

I don't care if something offends you the day you start violating our bill of rights for whatever is appeasing people is the minute you can kiss any freedom you have goodbye we need to support the rights of those we disagree with the most or we will have no leg to stand on when people come after our rights. Being able to offend people and disagree with them is the only thing that separates a democracy from a dictatorship.


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## Inor

Boss Dog said:


> I like the following books. I'm sure someone on here will take exception to them. Read and investigate for yourself... and please don't use those worthless text books they give you at school.
> 
> The South Was Right! by Walter Kennedy | 9781565540248 | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble
> 
> The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War by Thomas DiLorenzo | 9780761526469 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


I have the Kennedy book and found it exceptional. I recommend it. I do not know about the DiLorenzo book, but I will track it down and read it.

Thanks Boss Dog!


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## Old SF Guy

This wonderful country began to die right after the civil war... only because it was so exceptional has it taken so many years to finally meet the fait de complete....it had been great..but its bad times from here on out...WE NOW HAVE FEDERAL JUDGES THAT SAY STATES HAVE NO RIGHTS. Its going to start..and I will support it and contribute.....there is no United Staes...there is only the United state. and it will fall...as all do.


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## Sockpuppet

Old SF Guy said:


> This wonderful country began to die right after the civil war... only because it was so exceptional has it taken so many years to finally meet the fait de complete....it had been great..but its bad times from here on out...WE NOW HAVE FEDERAL JUDGES THAT SAY STATES HAVE NO RIGHTS. Its going to start..and I will support it and contribute.....there is no United Staes...there is only the United state. and it will fall...as all do.


Not to sound obtuse, states don't have rights......No government does for that matter. What you are referring is to the political powers reserved for the state governments rather than the federal government in accordance to the Constitution

The problems that usurped the political powers of the states, began long before the rebellion. John Marshall and the Supreme Court did a real number on the Constitution with regard to two points of law: Marbury v. Madison, which provided the judiciary the power to review; and McCulloch v. Maryland, asserting that laws created by the federal government are paramount to conflicting laws of state governments.

Of course, these binding rulings came well after the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, whereas the legislatures of aforementioned Commonwealths declared that the federal government had no authority to exercise powers not specifically delegated to it. These resolutions were a direct response to the Alien and Sedition Acts, and were also respectively and secretly penned by Jefferson and Madison. It was hoped that other states would fall in line with the position taken by these resolution, but unfortunately, the idea was doomed from the start. No less than 10 states, officially opposed these resolutions. So much for 10A, and it has led us down the path to Hell.


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## thepeartree

Oh, geez! You lost; get over it! ::rambo:::grin::roll:


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## Sockpuppet

thepeartree said:


> Oh, geez! You lost; get over it! ::rambo:::grin::roll:


It would be more accurate to state that we all lost. The current political climate is evidence of that fact.


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## ___

nothing to do with race


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## pheniox17

Sockpuppet said:


> It would be more accurate to state that we all lost. The current political climate is evidence of that fact.


Now that will have to be the recovery of the century


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## Sockpuppet

___ said:


> nothing to do with race


The confederate flag did and does have some loose association with race.

Some individuals utilize the Stars and Bars for race purposes today; and slavery was an issue for the South during that period of time, though usually it was more an issue associated with "state rights".


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