# What would your worth be?



## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

What will be your "worth" be if there was a societal meltdown? Not in gold or silver or other assets, but what contribution could you make that others would value as an important skill or knowledge that everyone else who survives would value? One of the main characters in my novel LEAVING THE TREES, Erin Owens, was a Wall Street broker who went from being wealthy and affluent to having nothing. She was very, very far from being prepared when the SHTF. She made it to a survival camp in Montana and her new worth was sitting in a tree and keeping watch everyday for marauders who might want to attack the camp.

These are quotes from the book about worth, describing how the ex-military leader in charge of the survivors in the camp, Roberta Alvarez, measured this:

*"Their internal currency was their worth to the group. Barter was the norm. Chopped firewood was a haircut and trimmed nails. Standing watch up in a tree earned your meals that day and safe, warm sleeping place for the night.

Roberta was also the self-appointed "Worth Master" for the group. Roberta decided a person's worth by using an internal mental gauge she had for each group member or potential member. She had the right of "Take In." "Take In" was simple. Roberta decided you had worth to the group and would make a contribution; in short you were worth feeding and sheltering. If she said yes, you were allowed to join.

She also had the right of "Cast Out". "Cast Out" was quick and brutal. If you no longer were contributing, Roberta handed you some food and told you to leave. She had demonstrated this more than once in the early days with some of the weaker members of the original group of about thirty people. If you were lazy, you were told to leave. No second chances with Roberta."

-From Page 50, LEAVING THE TREES, 2013 by Richard Earl Broome, All Rights Reserved.*

Would Roberta Alvarez let you join the survival camp or kick you out?


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## oldmurph58 (Feb 8, 2014)

Well Im older a negative, but ex infantry, a nurse, and one charmin old bastard, so i bet i could stay.


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## Beach Kowboy (Feb 13, 2014)

I would be able to stay I would think...


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

The bigger question is: what would her worth to me be?


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## jro1 (Mar 3, 2014)

Rock guide, extensive knowledge of knots, taught climbing to children and adults for three years. and ran various rec programs! probably a good leader?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

We will be of no market value. That concept will have become outdated. We will have what we need to live. We will not live bad in fact.
Will shelter and eat well. Contact with out side world will be very limited for a long time.Once the herd has been thin we will see what come next.
If you are thinking about being around you need to abandon the old way of thinking.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Inor said:


> The bigger question is: what would her worth to me be?


Well...in the book she was a tough leader who found hard-working people who could hunt, fish, farm and build. She led them all to safety. They all followed her orders without question because she knew what she was doing and helped them all survive in the early chaos. She also put an arrow in the chest of anyone who crossed her. (Why waste a good bullet when you could use an arrow and retrieve it?)

I don't think she would have been worried about you. But... also remember, she is a fictional character out novel too.:grin:


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> We will be of no market value. That concept will have become outdated. We will have what we need to live. We will not live bad in fact.
> Will shelter and eat well. Contact with out side world will be very limited for a long time.Once the herd has been thin we will see what come next.
> If you are thinking about being around you need to abandon the old way of thinking.


Smitty901, In a scenario like this, I think we all better bring something to the table or we will be out on our own fighting for survival with no help from others. The survivors of something like this will do better if they can band together and have each other's backs.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Lol I am sure shed take me but id prolly disagree with her and based on a pattern of conduct id be running things for the better she sounds like a tyrant.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

ApexPredator said:


> Lol I am sure shed take me but id prolly disagree with her and based on a pattern of conduct id be running things for the better she sounds like a tyrant.


Yes. She was a tyrant. Took no shit. No committee votes or democracy. "You wanna live through this? Follow me, do what I say or get the hell out of here." In my book, it worked for those who came to seek survival in her camp in the Bridger Mountains of Montana. (For a while anyway, until something went wrong.)


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## jro1 (Mar 3, 2014)

Was this Roberta a closet commie? I would send members from my group to start a riot, then they would overthrow Roberta and I would bring Democracy to the group, and then shortly after, my group and I would leave, only For Roberta or one of her followers to come back and regulate the camp like she did before we came in and tried to help.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

rebroome said:


> Well...in the book she was a tough leader who found hard-working people who could hunt, fish, farm and build. She led them all to safety. They all followed her orders without question because she knew what she was doing and helped them all survive in the early chaos. She also put an arrow in the chest of anyone who crossed her. (Why waste a good bullet when you could use an arrow and retrieve it?)
> 
> I don't think she would have been worried about you. But... also remember, she is a fictional character out novel too.:grin:


My point was, if I just happen upon somebody that is trying to ascertain my value to them without providing me with some reason to even want to associate with them, why do I care what they think of me or my skills? I know what skills Mrs Inor and I have and where we are lacking. If whomever I happen across does not strengthen the areas where we are weak, discussing what skills I can bring to the table is moot.

I also know from too many bad experiences in business, that of all the folks that claim to possess leadership skills, very few do. Furthermore, it takes time to even figure out if somebody claiming leadership abilities actually has them. So, I expect in a SHTF situation, I will treat any "leaders" that I happen upon the same way I treat business associates now: I will trade with them when I have something they value and they have something I value. But as far as "joining" them or "becoming a part" of their group, I see that as a pretty remote possibility.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

jro1 said:


> Was this Roberta a closet commie? I would send members from my group to start a riot, then they would overthrow Roberta and I would bring Democracy to the group, and then shortly after, my group and I would leave, only For Roberta or one of her followers to come back and regulate the camp like she did before we came in and tried to help.


Roberta was not a a commie which, by the way, are getting scarcer and scarcer as capitalism sweeps all the old communist countries like Russia, China and Vietnam. She was a follower of a simple military maxim. *Rule # 1 for a leader: "When put in charge...Take charge." *She took charge during the crisis, gave the orders that helped them all escape the chaos around them. The survivors she was leading were grateful. However....once the crisis was past, she knew they all wanted life restored to normalcy.

That was where the trouble started. When can you relax your control? People are willing to be directed by a strong leader for a while, but over time, if they think things are better, they want a voice again. She did her best with this although her instincts were against it. inside of her she sensed that the danger was not yet past... which turned out in the end...to be true.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

What would my worth be? Damned if I know but I hope that those around me would say honor, honesty and reliability. Easy with a laugh and sometimes hard with a stare, but only when confronted. Willing to help and willing to do without help.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Inor said:


> My point was, if I just happen upon somebody that is trying to ascertain my value to them without providing me with some reason to even want to associate with them, why do I care what they think of me or my skills? I know what skills Mrs Inor and I have and where we are lacking. If whomever I happen across does not strengthen the areas where we are weak, discussing what skills I can bring to the table is moot.
> 
> I also know from too many bad experiences in business, that of all the folks that claim to possess leadership skills, very few do. Furthermore, it takes time to even figure out if somebody claiming leadership abilities actually has them. So, I expect in a SHTF situation, I will treat any "leaders" that I happen upon the same way I treat business associates now: I will trade with them when I have something they value and they have something I value. But as far as "joining" them or "becoming a part" of their group, I see that as a pretty remote possibility.


I get what you are saying. It is never an easy decision and does not apply to everyone. In the book, she took a group of very unprepared group people to safety who could not have survived without her. They were lucky. However...I do agree not everyone would need her. In this case the people she saved did. But...she did weed out anyone who did not seem to have some "worth" to bring to the group she was saving.


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## oldmurph58 (Feb 8, 2014)

rebroome said:


> Well...in the book she was a tough leader who found hard-working people who could hunt, fish, farm and build. She led them all to safety. They all followed her orders without question because she knew what she was doing and helped them all survive in the early chaos. She also put an arrow in the chest of anyone who crossed her. (Why waste a good bullet when you could use an arrow and retrieve it?)
> 
> I don't think she would have been worried about you. But... also remember, she is a fictional character out novel too.:grin:


 dont know for sure but i think smitty would kill her before she got in arrow range,and inor would catch the arrow in his teeth and spit it back at her:razz:


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

oldmurph58 said:


> dont know for sure but i think smitty would kill her before she got in arrow range,and inor would catch the arrow in his teeth and spit it back at her:razz:


Damn...wish I'd thought of that before I wrote the book. Would have made a great scene!

Actually, Roberta was a veteran of Afghanistan and knew how to spot danger pretty well. She taught her son Scott to shoot. He was acknowledged to be the best shot in the camp and was a skilled sniper. In one firefight towards the end of the book, by shooting and maneuvering among the trees and bushes and using good cover and concealment techniques (like they teach you in the Army), he took out five less skilled people who were coming to kill him.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Rebroome -

Just a thought for maybe further exploration in a future novel... I gather there are quite a bunch of guys like me in the prepping world. That is, guys that are leaders in our chosen professional fields now, but would make horrible leaders in a SHTF world. But, those same personality traits would also make us horrible followers as well. I have done a fair bit of introspection and prayer on this and the only conclusion I can come to is that in a worst-case scenario, Mrs Inor's and my best bet is to become the same thing we are right now: businessmen and traders.

I would love to read a prepper novel that explores that angle as well. I guess Rawles does sort of, in his second Patriots novel with the lady that opens the seed store. But he did not go into much detail.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

oldmurph58 said:


> dont know for sure but i think smitty would kill her before she got in arrow range,and inor would catch the arrow in his teeth and spit it back at her:razz:


You offer me too much credit. Besides, she would never want to shoot an arrow through me. I pose no threat to anybody unless they directly threaten me, and she is the heroine of the story.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Inor said:


> Rebroome -
> 
> Just a thought for maybe further exploration in a future novel... I gather there are quite a bunch of guys like me in the prepping world. That is, guys that are leaders in our chosen professional fields now, but would make horrible leaders in a SHTF world. But, those same personality traits would also make us horrible followers as well. I have done a fair bit of introspection and prayer on this and the only conclusion I can come to is that in a worst-case scenario, Mrs Inor's and my best bet is to become the same thing we are right now: businessmen and traders.
> 
> I would love to read a prepper novel that explores that angle as well. I guess Rawles does sort of, in his second Patriots novel with the lady that opens the seed store. But he did not go into much detail.


You know...that is a really good idea. I am about finished with the second book that is a the sequel to LEAVING THE TREES, called GOOD CRAZY, in which I spend more time on preppers who did a better job of getting ready for the meltdown using a flashback sequences. (Like how did the mountain refuge near Wilsall, Montana come to exist? Who built it? I explain this.) Having the third novel in this series, which I will probably start in a couple of month, focus more on what is life going to be like well after the meltdown would be a good story line. I think people who survive as traders would be a key part of this. Again, good idea. Thsnks.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

"What would my worth be? Damned if I know but I hope that those around me would say honor, honesty and reliability. Easy with a laugh and sometimes hard with a stare, but only when confronted. Willing to help and willing to do without help."

Slippy, you've hit the nail on the head with this statement. I would also hope the same was said of me and of others.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

I love the fact that you wrote a book and posed the question but IMHO a Wall Street banker is the least likely to show up at my retreat.

IMO such people don't have the slightest clue about winter survival, firearms, freedom and the will of God.

Not only that you get into the "OMG this is really hard work" paradigm and then they just curl up into a ball and die.

Somebody from Wall Street shows up in my area and we cap her in the head as a conspirator and move on with our normal lives.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

I make "Roberta"s valium, hot flash pills and coochie-do.....priceless ahahaha!


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Don't take this the wrong way, but I tire of the small fragile female types being portrayed as the tough leader of the fantasy world. Seems everyone puts a pretty young blonde female incharge of their doomsday fantasy lands (ala Revolution). Truth be told a "leader" like that would not be long for this world and their band of survivors would end up on the wrong side of the daisys. I am sure it is a great read though.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

It doesn't matter people will be selfish as ever and without a government with some restraints it will be brutal.

most people are useful.

essentially people will be forced to farm without a secure transportation system.

people will be trained as needed. that is all there is to it.

The real drag will be industrial output reductions.

Imports fuel a lot of consumer habits so without that there will be less junk.

most stuff we have is not needed anyway, just fluff.

I wouldn't want to run with anyone who can't find human value anyway.

if things are so scarce everyone can't be fed, loyalty will be far more important than skills.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

I have thought a lot about picking skilled people with highly artistic interests and energies, people whose hobbies inspired better morale. Man does not live by bread alone, even tho that'll be scarce too ~


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## ATRPrepping (Mar 9, 2014)

Interesting. 

I think I would contribute a lot, but there are politics involved. I'm strong, I know how to hunt, fish, and fix things. But who's to say there there isn't a stronger hunter with better fishing gear who so happens to be a mechanic. 

Roberta might make an enemy by kicking a lesser skilled person, just to realize that individual is more suited to lead than her, and might have the ability to overthrow her.

To answer the question, I think I am worth a lot. But worth is in the eye of the beholder.


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## nephilim (Jan 20, 2014)

That is a good method to think about, but it causes a problem, for people who have young children. Now my daughter is nearly 5, she can tell you all of the flowers in my area, whats safe for picking and eating, and what is safe for use as other materials (cordage, medicinal rubs etc) and what should be left well alone. She is 5 in May. Since she was able to walk, I have taken her out every spring through to autumn (fall), and taught her what she can pick and eat or use etc. 

She LOVES "picking berries" (Cherries, blackberries, loganberries, raspberries, plums, apples etc) and picking flowers for her mother. Her knowledge is obviously limited, but I figure that a childs mind is like a sponge, and they should be taught a lot at an early age. This summer I will be working on teaching her how to make arrow heads and how to peel feathers to make fletchings for arrows.

Teach them whilst they're young 

As for myself, I can make bows, arrows, traps, can hunt, fish, reasonably skilled brick worker, carpenter, can smelt metals to be used by a blacksmith, and can salt and preserve meat in the form of salami and jerky/biltong.

I have a lot to learn about many things, but would hope my skill set would see me in a group (if not starting a group within my community).


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

Inor said:


> Rebroome -
> 
> Just a thought for maybe further exploration in a future novel... I gather there are quite a bunch of guys like me in the prepping world. That is, guys that are leaders in our chosen professional fields now, but would make horrible leaders in a SHTF world. But, those same personality traits would also make us horrible followers as well. I have done a fair bit of introspection and prayer on this and the only conclusion I can come to is that in a worst-case scenario, Mrs Inor's and my best bet is to become the same thing we are right now: businessmen and traders.
> 
> I would love to read a prepper novel that explores that angle as well. I guess Rawles does sort of, in his second Patriots novel with the lady that opens the seed store. But he did not go into much detail.


Inor, in all of my years military, and now civilian, life I have never met a true leader who did not first master the role of follower. There are far too many examples of technical expertise or business accumen being mistaken for leadership potential. Have you ever heard the old saying about taking a brilliant engineer and making them a manager? You lose a good engineer and gain a bad manager, more often than not.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Guess kids, the really old and the infirm all get shoved out the door since there's little that they can contribute.

Not the kind of world I'd like to live in


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

this is the 4th time I have attempted to formulate a appropriate reply to this question....

and I finally have one, since it's a American woman, my use will be the repeated use of the word aluminum... they go ga ga over it...

otherwise I would have better use in a group that avoids politics and not run on a business model


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Montana Rancher said:


> I love the fact that you wrote a book and posed the question but IMHO a Wall Street banker is the least likely to show up at my retreat.
> 
> IMO such people don't have the slightest clue about winter survival, firearms, freedom and the will of God.
> 
> ...


The Wall Street trader Erin Owens was a little tougher in the book than you might think. Here is a scene about her. She might have shot you first.:-D

*Just outside of the town of Livingston, Montana near the I-90 exit, Erin was confronted by a group prowling the I-90 Interstate. All men, she could see they were mostly armed with hunting bows. Only two had firearms, one with a shotgun and one with a pistol. The one with the shotgun appeared to be the leader.

As they approached, they had smiling, reassuring, friendly expressions and soothing voices. "Hey Ma'am! What are you doing out here? "

Erin also could see there was no smile in their eyes. She pulled a pistol out of her coat pocket and told them to stop where they were. They did for a moment to size Erin up. They kept talking to her like they were her new friends, obviously their routine for these encounters. But, with an almost imperceptible sidelong glance over at their leader with the shotgun, who did a very slight nod, they then began spreading out to circle Erin.

They were calling her bluff, betting that like most people she would lose her nerve and still try negotiating before shooting. As a Wall Street trader, Erin had spent her life quickly assessing risks and making instant, gut decisions. She was very, very good at it. She started firing her pistol.

She first shot and killed the leader with the shotgun, shooting him right in his face. She then swung around and blasted the other one who was carrying the pistol. He was surprised, struggling to get the pistol out of his holster. Their eyes locked. She saw the fear and took aim at his heart. She killed him instantly.

The remaining two men with the hunting bows ran for their lives. She took the shotgun and the shells from the leader and then the pistol and holster from the other man. Both men stunk. It made Erin wonder how bad she smelled. --Pages 47-48, LEAVING THE TREES.
*

To your point, the best she could do was stand a watch. But... she did have some grit and guts, enough to survive a freezing Montana winter living in a camp of tents and makeshift huts, so Roberta let her stay.


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## pastornator (Apr 5, 2013)

I'm late to the party, but I would be one who stayed...

I know how to farm, garden, produce dairy products from raw ingredients (like making cheese -- and I actually DO that stuff), re-load, shoot (was nationally ranked in handgun competion and scored distinguished expert with rifle), hunt, fish, trap, process the things I hunt or gather (I was a pro chef at one point), plus I have extensive engineering background and know how things work and how to make them work when they don't.

In other words, I've done so much for so long with so little that I am now quaified to do everything with nothing!


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

I think Roberta would have really liked you.:-D


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## Casie (Feb 26, 2014)

Ok, I read the premise and the replies. Some good stuff. Some crazy stuff! But here's what Gramps would say:

What ya think this is kids? Pick'n teams for Red Rover? Like refugees and rag-tag soldiers you'll band together to survive. You'll care for your sick and your weak. You'll teach and learn skills on the fly. Only the most serious offenses will be punished, and punishments will be decided by the community. There will be no one person rule'n over all, because no one person can do it all. 

You'll do it like it's always been done. Together you'll build a barn or fix a roof. You'll plant a garden or dig a well. You'll make sure everyone has warm clothes, clean water and something to eat. You'll be family and you'll rely on each other.

And even the biggest jerk in yer' family, is gonna feel like your very best bud the day you stand shoulder to shoulder defending your home.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Well, I suppose we'll see ~ we should be so lucky as the above scenario...


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## Silverback (Jan 20, 2014)

Well my worth would be that I can easily stand alone so i am sure others would want me to stand with them, Strength and Stability is best found in numbers. I'd hate to have a fire all by myself every night. Need someone to drown out my horrible drunken songs mixed with dance. So, someone has to fix that.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Casie said:


> Ok, I read the premise and the replies. Some good stuff. Some crazy stuff! But here's what Gramps would say:
> 
> What ya think this is kids? Pick'n teams for Red Rover? Like refugees and rag-tag soldiers you'll band together to survive. You'll care for your sick and your weak. You'll teach and learn skills on the fly. Only the most serious offenses will be punished, and punishments will be decided by the community. There will be no one person rule'n over all, because no one person can do it all.
> 
> ...


Does everyone agree with this? When the food stops coming, the gasoline runs out and the power goes off and stays off, do we really believe things will be this calm? After a hurricane, I have seen fights break out in gasoline lines over people trying to cut in front of someone.


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## Silverback (Jan 20, 2014)

rebroome, In this event I have enough to Bug In for a bit, my reasoning is that I would be letting the hmm... "Morons?" Filter themselves out. If they want to fight over Gas that is just fine by me, I won't be near it. However, I believe at the start it will be hell, as time passes groups will form from people like me who stayed out of the beginning mess that incurred from those who were not prepared. I would hope I could find a group that is focused on starting again and hopefully I can do it without leaving my existing infrastructure at home. Who knows, we can only do all we can do to prepare for anything and then when anything comes do what we can to continue under anythings chosen circumstances.


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## nephilim (Jan 20, 2014)

Much like silverback, I too will be bugging in. There is plenty in my area (animals, vegetation) to keep my family going for a prolonged period of time (3 months or so, maybe longer if preservation methods were used), and this is before I even consider the food and water in my house.

From my house, it is a 40 mile trip to the coast. Now this could be done walking in 3 days (with 2 children in tow), or in the car in an hour or so. Many people I know, outside of my cul-de-sac frankly, wouldn't survive. They'd be dead very quickly because they do not have any sort of common sense and would be to the point they'd be breaking and entering to gain food or water. In my house it would be a problem, as my house is very defendable with just 2 people. 1 person at the front window has a field of view which is wide, the house is terraced, and we have fenced our house off both front and back. In a SHTF scenario, I will be making a lot of arrows, and a few bows, and teaching the mrs and children how to properly use them. 

In an emergency a bow made from PVC pipe will do the job (it is the equivalent to a 40lb draw bow, enough to kill within 80 yards with ease). Factor in, I would actively set traps around the property so it would be difficult to get near, and I would be metal plating and barring the windows (I have them for such a situation in the loft, would take me a day to install on all windows and doors). My house is somewhat self sufficient with solar panels, and a small wind turbine, providing roughly 2/3 of the electric for my house. Once the main bulk of people have either died out or realised they need a proper social structure and help to survive, it would be then I would be looking at starting a proper community.

In my neighbourhood, there are 2 teachers and their family, a mechanic and his family, a fireman and his girlfriend, a police man and his family, a retired navy engineer and his wife (retired nurse), a retired army engineer his family, and my family (this is in the houses in my small cul-de-sac). We would be somewhat good to go for a start up community, each having skills we could teach each other and all being of use.

Our community would be a worthwhile one, even if a bit small, but everyone starts somewhere, and between us, we have something close to 2 acres of land all told (not much I know), but less than 5 minutes walk from us in either direction, is over 30 acres of land, which could be used for farming.


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## Casie (Feb 26, 2014)

rebroome said:


> Does everyone agree with this? When the food stops coming, the gasoline runs out and the power goes off and stays off, do we really believe things will be this calm? After a hurricane, I have seen fights break out in gasoline lines over people trying to cut in front of someone.


I understood the premise presented to be at least month or more after a collapse. Only crazy people run around in the eye of a hurricane. That's the time for hunkering down! When the sun comes out... it's time to see what ya got left to work with.


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## oldmurph58 (Feb 8, 2014)

rebroome said:


> Does everyone agree with this? When the food stops coming, the gasoline runs out and the power goes off and stays off, do we really believe things will be this calm? After a hurricane, I have seen fights break out in gasoline lines over people trying to cut in front of someone.


 Well once the herd gets culled, and only the smart ones are left, I HOPE I can find other people to keep me and the wife company, and help each other. The cats are great listeners, but dont have a lot to say, except for the occasional mew, they keep their thoughts to themselves.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

Silverback said:


> rebroome, In this event I have enough to Bug In for a bit, my reasoning is that I would be letting the hmm... "Morons?" Filter themselves out. If they want to fight over Gas that is just fine by me, I won't be near it. However, I believe at the start it will be hell, as time passes groups will form from people like me who stayed out of the beginning mess that incurred from those who were not prepared. I would hope I could find a group that is focused on starting again and hopefully I can do it without leaving my existing infrastructure at home. Who knows, we can only do all we can do to prepare for anything and then when anything comes do what we can to continue under anythings chosen circumstances.


This is how I would see it unfolding too. Upfront panic and craziness followed by groups forming and survivors banding together to have each other's backs.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

nephilim said:


> Much like silverback, I too will be bugging in. There is plenty in my area (animals, vegetation) to keep my family going for a prolonged period of time (3 months or so, maybe longer if preservation methods were used), and this is before I even consider the food and water in my house.
> 
> From my house, it is a 40 mile trip to the coast. Now this could be done walking in 3 days (with 2 children in tow), or in the car in an hour or so. Many people I know, outside of my cul-de-sac frankly, wouldn't survive. They'd be dead very quickly because they do not have any sort of common sense and would be to the point they'd be breaking and entering to gain food or water. In my house it would be a problem, as my house is very defendable with just 2 people. 1 person at the front window has a field of view which is wide, the house is terraced, and we have fenced our house off both front and back. In a SHTF scenario, I will be making a lot of arrows, and a few bows, and teaching the mrs and children how to properly use them.
> 
> ...


That's a pretty good layout. What would you do for heat and cooking if the power goes off? Will the solar panels and wind turbine still do the job? In the southwestern part of Montana, there is plenty of wood available from the surrounding trees. The trick is to keep cutting, splitting and stacking it so you have a steady source of dried wood. In the winter, you would need a lot of it. This is how it was handled in the book by one of the survivors allowed to stay in the camp.

*One man's job was to endlessly cut trees and build a stack of firewood for both cooking and warmth. He was made to travel a ways from the camp to cut down trees, split firewood, and with a makeshift wheelbarrow haul it back, load after load. He had been doing this for years, only getting a rest from it during the worst of the winter snows.--LEAVING THE TREES, PAGE 69*


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Well, we need to know such like folks in nm, co and mt because we are pretty sure we will have to go up and down the divide according to what is happening. We see the "boil out" others do but also a kill back on top. The vulnerable are just first. We expect to see things, but also to see things where we think going up or down to the "other farm" for a couple months is a good idea. Our war room thinks mt is all around best place, but that don't mean they won't show up in a convoy saying "We figure safe to go back by Spring" either. What they can't take with a honey trap they will with "amaze the natives" - what they can't get with dummy tricks...they will come after somewhat more aggressively, but sporadically and hopefully just the "roll in, do all the damage you can and leave" so simple avoision will do.


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## nephilim (Jan 20, 2014)

Solar and wind turbines would still work as they power the generator in our attic. Like I said it does 2/3 of our total consumption. We could cut out 1/3 of our consumption if we worked at it. As for warmth etc we have ample supply of trees in our area to last a good few years.


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## pastornator (Apr 5, 2013)

rebroome said:


> Does everyone agree with this? When the food stops coming, the gasoline runs out and the power goes off and stays off, do we really believe things will be this calm? After a hurricane, I have seen fights break out in gasoline lines over people trying to cut in front of someone.


Not at first, but for those who actually want life to go on, they will either learn to return to true community or they will perish outside the city gates. No humankind has ever survived for long without sustainable community and no individual or even single family unit has ALL the skills required to do, well, everything... Even in pioneer days one man was the blacksmith, another ran the merchentile exchange, while others farmed the land, milked cows, raised horses or pigs, etc. One even kept up with the saloon, which was, along with the local church, the gathering place for the communty.

Those who are purely "takers" to borrow a term used in the latest novel by Donald and Francine Frank, will soon run out of stuff to take and also out of the patience of those they take from.

And, in true community, resources are ALWAYS pooled to take care of those who cannot always work physically themselves, but everyone does what he or she CAN. That is life. I was raised that way myself, and I still recall my duties at age 5. It was my job to take a plastic bucket and collect the eggs, feed the calves their grain and milk, sweep the barn after the cows were let out, and take apart the milking machines so that they could be cleaned. I did that before and after going to school and my day began at 4 am. Now, 50 years later, my day still begins at 4 am, and I'm up writing, researching, preparing for the work day, commuting 40 miles, working a job I detest to draw a paycheck and insurance, then repeat the commute, more preparation for my real profession as pastor of a Baptist church, and in between all that, I manage to read around 300 pages a day, write around 20 pages a day (including forum work), tend the garden or plow the snow depending on the season, and of course, get some hunting, fishing, gathering, etc., in around the edges. I sleep around 5 hours per day with a nap somtimes just before supper. Its nice, now, that my schedule is so freed up. For about 15 years it was far worse with my attending seminary full time, working a full time job, pastor of a church, and taking care of my sideline consulting business editing and formatting doctoral dissertations for seminary post-graduate students. Then, I slept about 4 hours a night, and pulled at least 2 all-nighers a week.

I'm not saying all the stuff above to toot my own horn, but as an example of how people will each need to pull their own weight if things fall apart. The one who cannot DO should be spending time reading and understanding resource material to teach others new/old techniques so they can do the doing with more efficiency and productivity. That is how 75% of the world lives... And, I greatly fear we will soon join them...


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

That's pretty much us now. You have to be good at more than one vital thing, what is common is commonly shared, we are generous to each other with our own produce and aid, there's a complete environment and other species consciousness and practice, no dolores umbridge, no community activist. The simpler and brighter you can keep it the better.


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## SAR-1L (Mar 13, 2013)

Lets be honest, growing up I was one very stupid child. Maybe not as dumb as some, but definitely not as smart as the adults I spent most of my time with.
While comparing my mental maturity as a kid to that of an adult may be a little harsh, lets be honest, life doesn't care your age, only that you hit or miss.
I learned at a very early age, work, and hard work can be a relative term. If people like you, your work is easier, if people dislike you, busting your balls 
from dusk till dawn may never be enough.

I have, a lot to offer, and while I am clever now in my mind, I feel in twenty years i still will go, what a dumb young man I was.

Society atm makes a person question their worth daily, and probably value ourselves in all the wrong ways. 
I don't do very well with making people like me, most of the time. I know that I really am only tolerated cause,
some single person in the group has some level of affection for me. It is mainly cause I enjoy talking about the topics, 
society gets touchy about, topics most of us "preppers" love talking about.

I wonder though would tables be flipped, how eager would people be to hear things, and learn from me if things were
much different. Would they accept my questions, would they enjoy my choice of topics? I don't know.

It is not the ability to provide within the group that concerns me, it is the ability to find social acceptance that does. 

I feel men like me who have physical presence, who are considered intimidating, are kept out of necessity, a tool,
not cause we are necessarily liked. Much like the "Dog" on Game of Thrones... no one really likes him, but they sure
do like having him on their side.


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## SAR-1L (Mar 13, 2013)

I think a smarter question on my own behalf would be, how many of you would want to have me in your group? 

We can almost all say we have something to offer. But the best answers to something like this would be to ask the appraiser.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Well long as you're laid back except when there's something to do...


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## jro1 (Mar 3, 2014)

rebroome said:


> That's a pretty good layout. What would you do for heat and cooking if the power goes off? Will the solar panels and wind turbine still do the job? In the southwestern part of Montana, there is plenty of wood available from the surrounding trees. The trick is to keep cutting, splitting and stacking it so you have a steady source of dried wood. In the winter, you would need a lot of it. This is how it was handled in the book by one of the survivors allowed to stay in the camp.
> 
> *One man's job was to endlessly cut trees and build a stack of firewood for both cooking and warmth. He was made to travel a ways from the camp to cut down trees, split firewood, and with a makeshift wheelbarrow haul it back, load after load. He had been doing this for years, only getting a rest from it during the worst of the winter snows.--LEAVING THE TREES, PAGE 69*


One only needs to watch Dick proenneke's Alone in the wilderness series to see how much work chopping wood is for an adequate supply for winter!


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Rigged for Quiet said:


> Inor, in all of my years military, and now civilian, life I have never met a true leader who did not first master the role of follower. There are far too many examples of technical expertise or business accumen being mistaken for leadership potential. Have you ever heard the old saying about taking a brilliant engineer and making them a manager? You lose a good engineer and gain a bad manager, more often than not.


That is *exactly* my point. I am no good as a follower. And outside of my area of expertise, I am pretty sure I would be worthless as a leader. (I have never tried, but it seems a reasonable assumption.) So, the best alternative is to stay doing what I am good at and trade for what we need that we cannot provide for ourselves.


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## rebroome (Jan 16, 2014)

jro1 said:


> One only needs to watch Dick proenneke's Alone in the wilderness series to see how much work chopping wood is for an adequate supply for winter!


I have that film. What he was able to create alone in the wilderness was really amazing. Built a cabin, a fire place, etc. all by hand. Did the cleverest things like creating his own tools and utensils, etc. I think he lived alone like that, just getting some mail and supplies by a seaplane every few months that landed on the lake he was next to while the weather still held, until he was in his eighties.

There was another film series a few years back, one of these reality shows, that had three families go to Montana and homestead. They were not allowed any technology, but had to do it all using what a pioneer in the 1883 would have had, e.g., hand tools, wagons, horses, their own smarts about how to make the best use of what they had on hand. For the show they all had to transition from our life now, to what it was like in 1883 and you watched them actually live that life, trying to build a homestead and get ready to survive the first Montana winter. At the end of the show they were evaluated on how well they would have done, or even survived. Only about 30 percent of these kind of homesteaders actually made it.

Here are the episodes, if anyone is interested. There are six of them and you can see how hard this was and their personal journey and changes.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF6lM65O9ITglGwsPDxGE4Vm7GUODi-b7


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## jro1 (Mar 3, 2014)

It will be like working two full time jobs just to get all the work done, Relaxing will be a word from the past, only the older generation will remember what relaxing was!


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Inor said:


> That is *exactly* my point. I am no good as a follower. And outside of my area of expertise, I am pretty sure I would be worthless as a leader. (I have never tried, but it seems a reasonable assumption.) So, the best alternative is to stay doing what I am good at and trade for what we need that we cannot provide for ourselves.


inor, got to love your posts...

yes you're not a follower and not a leader, I see you as a important member of a council.. as you have the balls to say it how it is... (yea I have been using that analogy a lot, maybe because there is plenty of guts out there, but so few have the balls to follow it through) and that alone is a massive value to any group (my opinion anyway)


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

jro1 said:


> It will be like working two full time jobs just to get all the work done, Relaxing will be a word from the past, only the older generation will remember what relaxing was!


That's not necessarily true as you might think. Needs, strategy and organization. You kind of drift through days a lot not noticing all you do, you just do it.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

Inor said:


> That is *exactly* my point. I am no good as a follower. And outside of my area of expertise, I am pretty sure I would be worthless as a leader. (I have never tried, but it seems a reasonable assumption.) So, the best alternative is to stay doing what I am good at and trade for what we need that we cannot provide for ourselves.





pheniox17 said:


> inor, got to love your posts...
> 
> yes you're not a follower and not a leader, I see you as a important member of a council.. as you have the balls to say it how it is... (yea I have been using that analogy a lot, maybe because there is plenty of guts out there, but so few have the balls to follow it through) and that alone is a massive value to any group (my opinion anyway)


My feelings exactly. There are many ways to "lead", even if it's only through influence. Inor, or more appropriatley "Team Inor" may not wish to lead but they would be invaluable process owners and advisors.

Leaders are only as good as the people they surround themselves with, and good people are always needed. Given a choice of a group with or without Team Inor, I would vote with, every damn day.


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't necessarily think that the question should be what "skill" do you bring to the table, as much as it should be what skill do you bring that we do not have? We all have basic skills, maybe refined, maybe not, that would contribute to the overall well being of any group. It is the other skills that you possess that set you apart in any reckoning of your worth to a group. 

A good case in point, you have someone who is a Doctor, but has no medicines. The other person has extensive knowledge of medicinal herbs and plants. Both have desirable skills. Each one alone brings some benefit to your group. But if you combine their skills, you have a much more effective medical team. 

Social skills (not political) will be a premium asset if we ever have a shtf event. Without them, we will not be able to function in coherent groups. The a**hole that knows more about perimeter defense than anyone else will find himself defending a 360 degree perimeter, because no one will be standing beside him. I think most of us have already made the mental choice of who we will initially accept into our groups. While particular skills might be important to us, we also seek those who have the social skill to make a rather bleak life bearable.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

We don't know who, but we'll have a "minister and a preacher" to fool with people who can't really do much but fret or upset others. A chancellor type to settle them in and listen to them with a mouthpiece to inform everyone and speak peace.
If you don't, you will not be able to think or get important things done because people will wander around freaking out and commanding attention or helping out of rythym and wrecking it up. People cope in different and often weird ways. Plus, if you don't give them things to think about and news every few hours they start thinking up things and imagining news so it's necessary. 
You might think "Why waste energy and resources on weakest links now? They're no threat just babbling." but loose canons and frantic squibs are just as much a priority as initial surveillance and dusting off the lab.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

I don't know if I'd be any use to this group, but it don't think I'd want to be a member of it.


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## nephilim (Jan 20, 2014)

If you watch the TV show Revolution, it shows how many people would be vastly unprepared for a global EMP type event. According to the show, something close to 60% if the worlds population died out within 3 years of a global EMP. USA and Canada were split into 5 territories. Granted this is an extreme of what could happen, but then again, I would think that if such an event happened, the world would be screwed. 70% of todays jobs are not manual jobs, many are office based, or behind a desk of sorts. These are the people who would fall foul first, as they get little to no exercise in their building blocks, and do not know the first thing about basic arable farming.

Also 90% of the worlds population is urbanised. Tribal societies such as those in the amazon, would survive, as would inuit peoples as they know what they are doing, and can revert to the old methods without issue. For the rest of us, we would be stuck in at best 1920s industrial tech, at worst we would be at 1800 level industrial tech. Either way, it isn't a great situation.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Arizona Infidel said:


> I don't know if I'd be any use to this group, but it don't think I'd want to be a member of it.


I think it's more about how anyone might benefit a group they chose more than any one group. There is no "this group" to g.a.s., it was hypothetical and to the person.


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