# A Man's Got to Know his Limitations



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

With a rifle, I would say I am in the top % of shooters. I learned to shot in Maine growing up, attended Marine Boot Camp, shot high expert, attended the Marine Corps Rifle combat instructor course (tied for 1st), taught shooting for years, after shooting a 248 on the rifle course was invited to try out for the shooting team - my CO would not let me go.

HOWEVER...
With a pistol, I am barely adequate, I managed to qualify so I could carry it and a time or two I needed extra time to pass. I can shot better with a 9mm then the old 1911 45...but better is just a word meaning i shot high marksman (the basic to pass) - sort of like getting the less ugly fat girl to take to the dance.
I had some instruction by some great shooters, and i tried to get better, but I am just not great with a pistol - which is one reason i carry 30 rounds with my CCW.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Nothing wrong with being a get off my lawn guy.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Short sight radius is a real pain in the butt...

Rifles are generally easier for most people to be accurate with. A 16+" barrel and a sight radius nearly the length of your arm is a far superior platform to a 3" barrel and sights.
I'm not happy with my pistol accuracy either. I attribute it to nowhere near enough range time. I get there, muck around with my grip, stance, presentation, and all that nonsense that you overthink about, and end up just wasting ammo.
I can hit the silhouette at 20yds, but I want to be a tack driver.
I need a good instructor to point out my problems.


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

For the Millenials:


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

Kauboy said:


> I need a good instructor to point out my problems.


...I'm assuming you're remembering to breathe. Once you've got the sight on your target, be sure to exhale outwards when you squeeze the trigger. Don't pull it. That'll move the barrel of the gun, ruining your shot. You want to slowly squeeze it backwards, so that when it fires, it should almost come as a surprise to you. Don't rush either. Navy SEALS have a motto: _Smooth is fast._ 

Don't try to be fast. Try to be _smooth_. 👍


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Nora Michels said:


> ...I'm assuming you're remembering to breathe. Once you've got the sight on your target, be sure to exhale outwards when you squeeze the trigger. Don't pull it. That'll move the barrel of the gun, ruining your shot. You want to slowly squeeze it backwards, so that when it fires, it should almost come as a surprise to you. Don't rush either. Navy SEALS have a motto: _Smooth is fast._
> 
> Don't try to be fast. Try to be _smooth_. 👍


I've been shooting for a long time. I know all the advice.
What I need is in-person observation.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

I'm just the opposite. I can shoot from the hip fairly well, but can't do long-range stuff even under ideal conditions.


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## Demitri.14 (Nov 21, 2018)

Nora Michels said:


> ...I'm assuming you're remembering to breathe. Once you've got the sight on your target, be sure to exhale outwards when you squeeze the trigger. Don't pull it. That'll move the barrel of the gun, ruining your shot. You want to slowly squeeze it backwards, so that when it fires, it should almost come as a surprise to you. Don't rush either. Navy SEALS have a motto: _Smooth is fast._
> 
> Don't try to be fast. Try to be _smooth_. 👍


Sometimes Squeezing the trigger will torque the gun. Instead think of "Pressing the trigger" with your finger


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## KUSA (Apr 21, 2016)

Nora Michels said:


> ...I'm assuming you're remembering to breathe. Once you've got the sight on your target, be sure to exhale outwards when you squeeze the trigger. Don't pull it. That'll move the barrel of the gun, ruining your shot. You want to slowly squeeze it backwards, so that when it fires, it should almost come as a surprise to you. Don't rush either. Navy SEALS have a motto: _Smooth is fast._
> 
> Don't try to be fast. Try to be _smooth_.


I used to believe that until I took some precision rifle classes. You should always know when the shot is going to occur. It should always be intentional. With proper trigger control, it is easy.


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## nondakotagroer (Jan 11, 2022)

I am opposite also. I feel so much more comfortable with a handgun. Years ago, I spent winters at a gun club shooting pistol league. At the time, it was difficult for me to find a place that could do much training with a rifle. But in the indoor range, I shot many, many thousands of rounds of 9mm. Reloading, buying bullets 5000 at a time. Rifle still feels awkward to me. My smith and wesson feels like an extension of me. Obviously, at a very long distance, the rifle would be much superior but for comfort...i will take the pistol.


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

Back Pack Hack said:


> I'm just the opposite. I can shoot from the hip fairly well, but can't do long-range stuff even under ideal conditions.


My father probably would've beaten me if he caught me firing from the hip lol. 
He was ex-military; super-by-the-book. 😅

And a violent, paranoid, alcoholic meth junkie with narcissistic and antisocial personality disorder. 😒


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

I'm more comfortable with handguns as well. Although I've never fired one-handed, nor have I ever dual-wielded pistols or tried firing from the hip; all those things would have been seriously frowned upon by my dad. I always shoot left-handed, with two hands on the gun in chapman or weaver stance. Isosceles when I was a little kid; I still revert back to it subconsciously if I'm shaky from adrenaline during a crisis. 😖

Also practiced from kneeling and prone positions around corners when clearing a structure. 🥷


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## BennyMG1 (Jun 7, 2021)

I’m with you MM (although not nearly as proficient with a rifle) in that my pistol work needs help. Before the ammo scare, I was practicing three days a week, but not really improving. An instructor I know told me that practice without direction just hones mistakes, not skills. Now that ammo is back online, I’m planning to seek some professional help.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

BennyMG1 said:


> I’m with you MM (although not nearly as proficient with a rifle) in that my pistol work needs help. Before the ammo scare, I was practicing three days a week, but not really improving. An instructor I know told me that practice without direction just hones mistakes, not skills. Now that ammo is back online, I’m planning to seek some professional help.


it is the same with all things... I was coaching baseball last year and this one kid had a horrible stance and could not hit the ball. I said to him one day - do you want to stay a little longer and work on your hitting . he said no.. So I said to him (in front of his dad), OK as long as you are happy doing it wrong and not hitting the ball

I tell my kid all the time - if you practice doing it wrong you will get really really really good at doing it wrong...and doing it wrong will be come second nature


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Nora Michels said:


> My father probably would've beaten me if he caught me firing from the hip lol...


From a self-defense standpoint, being proficient in more than just a range stance is critical.


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

Back Pack Hack said:


> From a self-defense standpoint, being proficient in more than just a range stance is critical.


Firing from the hip isn't a reliable tactic in a real-world violent encounter. It's Showy-John-Wayne-Cowboy shit that should be left in the Western flicks.

Personally, I shoot CORRECTLY, or I _don't shoot at all_. Nothing fancy or complicated. That shit'll get you killed in a real fight. ...But what do I know? I'm just a dumb millennial girl; I couldn't _possibly_ know what I'm talking about here. 🙄


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Nora Michels said:


> Firing from the hip isn't a reliable tactic in a real-world violent encounter. It's Showy-John-Wayne-Cowboy shit that should be left in the Western flicks.
> 
> Personally, I shoot CORRECTLY, or I _don't shoot at all_. Nothing fancy or complicated. That shit'll get you killed in a real fight. ...But what do I know? I'm just a dumb millennial girl; I couldn't _possibly_ know what I'm talking about here. 🙄


Quit painting me with such a broad sexist brush.

And understand that in a self-defense situation, it's usually _the person who fires the first sho_t who walks away alive. Sometimes, that means shooting in a less-than-"correct" circumstance. Assaults don't happen at the range. They can happen any time... any where.

There's plenty of cases where a victim didn't want to carry with one in the pipe, thinking they'd have plenty of time to rack the slide. They never got it done, despite having the rest of their life to do so. And if the time it took to slide the rack is the same amount of time to 'shoot correctly', the same result can be expected.

And understand that 'shooting from the hip' DOES NOT mean JUST that. It means shooting from ANY less-than-desirable stance. Crouched. Prone. Back. Kneeling. Weak hand. Away from body.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Nora Michels said:


> Firing from the hip isn't a reliable tactic in a real-world violent encounter. It's Showy-John-Wayne-Cowboy shit that should be left in the Western flicks.


Since most defensive gun encounters occur between 3 and 7 feet, and many happen within bad-breath distance, learning to hip fire is an absolutely necessary tactic.
Knowing how to defend an incoming knife attack, drawing, placing accurate shots into the pelvis, then stomach, then chest while creating distance to actually get sights up is INVALUABLE defensive training.
This is often referred to as "retention shooting".

If you think "hip firing" is just cowboy shooting, I encourage you to expand your definition and find someone teaching retention shooting.

An awesome class on the topic:


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Quit painting me with such a broad sexist brush.


...Honestly, I was implying that some folks _in general _are ageist...but yes; sexism probably plays a part as well; thanks for pointing that out lol. 🤭



Back Pack Hack said:


> And understand that in a self-defense situation, it's usually _the person who fires the first sho_t who walks away alive.


Already knew that; dad instilled in my big sister and I a shoot-first-ask-questions-later philosophy. Action is always faster than reaction.



Back Pack Hack said:


> Sometimes, that means shooting in a less-than-"correct" circumstance. Assaults don't happen at the range. They can happen any time... any where.


There are CORRECT techniques for shooting in all of those stances. The only _correct_ way to "fire from the hip" is to shoot from a guard position. Maybe that's what you're talking about and you just thought the cowboy slang sounded cooler. ...I honestly don't really give a shit; I wanted to be done with this thread _yesterday_ lmao. 😅



Back Pack Hack said:


> There's plenty of cases where a victim didn't want to carry with one in the pipe, thinking they'd have plenty of time to rack the slide. They never got it done, despite having the rest of their life to do so.


Those people are ignorant scaredy-cats. I always carry with one in the chamber. It's a common misconception that it's somehow unsafe; as if the bullet will just go off at random if you bump the gun holster too hard. Never happens.



Back Pack Hack said:


> And if the time it took to slide the rack is the same amount of time to 'shoot correctly', the same result can be expected.


But it's _not_ lmao. ...The time it takes to rack the slide (_not "slide the rack" hehe _🤭) is NOT the same amount of time that it takes me to shoot correctly. Racking a slide is a reaction. Me shooting with perfect form is an ACTION; a reflexive, _instinctive _action. One that I've performed literally _thousands_ of times. Therefore, it's _instantaneous_. Racking a slide is NOT. Your logic is flawed in this statement.



Back Pack Hack said:


> And understand that 'shooting from the hip' DOES NOT mean JUST that. It means shooting from ANY less-than-desirable stance. Crouched. Prone. Back. Kneeling. Weak hand. Away from body.


ooOoOOOHHHHHHHH!!! I didn't mean that one saying meant MULTIPLE different things! How FRIGGIN' _convenient_ for YOU! I'm utterly _destroyed_ now! _Whatever_ will I do! Oh no! Oh dear! Omg! oh nos! Lmao. 🤣

...You're officially done wasting my time. 😑


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

Kauboy said:


> Since most defensive gun encounters occur between 3 and 7 feet, and many happen within bad-breath distance, learning to hip fire is an absolutely necessary tactic.


If they're THAT close with a gun on me, I'm not going to go for my gun; I'm going for _theirs_. 😅

I can disarm them and blow their head off with their own weapon faster than I'd be able to pull my gun and shoot them before they see me going for a weapon and shoot me before I have time to draw it. That's why I specialize in Krav Maga. Sometimes the best weapon to go for is your _opponent's_. 😉


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

OK, so now we have a forum expert on guns. All hail Nora.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Nora Michels said:


> If they're THAT close with a gun on me, I'm not going to go for my gun; I'm going for _theirs_. 😅
> 
> I can disarm them and blow their head off with their own weapon faster than I'd be able to pull my gun and shoot them before they see me going for a weapon and shoot me before I have time to draw it. That's why I specialize in Krav Maga. Sometimes the best weapon to go for is your _opponent's_. 😉


I have my doubts...


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## ItsJustMe (Dec 12, 2020)

Kauboy said:


> I need a good instructor to point out my problems.


Absolutely. I had a really good shooting coach, once/twice a week for several months, and he was really good at pointing out problems that I couldn't see.


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

Kauboy said:


> I have my doubts...


Good for you. I don't. I know how fast I can draw and shoot and I know how fast they can decide to shoot me when they see me make a move. _...The maths don't add up._ The only move I could make is the move that gets me out of the line of fire the fastest. ..._That_ move is going for their gun. They may still pull the trigger and the gun may still go off, but I'll be out of the line of fire. That part takes a fraction of a second. The disarm takes another half a second, while simultaneously counter-attacking by making them shoot themselves. ...Believe me; it would happen way faster than I'd be able to retrieve my own gun and shoot them. Chiefly because I'm expecting them to fire as soon as I even so much as flinch. Never pull a gun on someone at close range who already has a gun pointed at you.

...All comes back to that old adage that _action is always faster than reaction. _😉

But go ahead; be my guest. Next time someone's 3-7 feet away from you with a gun to your head, quick-draw your pistol and hip-fire them to death. 🙄

See if they don't shoot YOU before you shoot THEM. 😅

...I DARE ya! Lmao. 🤣


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Nora Michels said:


> Good for you. I don't. I know how fast I can draw and shoot and I know how fast they can decide to shoot me when they see me make a move. _...The maths don't add up._ The only move I could make is the move that gets me out of the line of fire the fastest. ..._That_ move is going for their gun. They may still pull the trigger and the gun may still go off, but I'll be out of the line of fire. That part takes a fraction of a second. The disarm takes another half a second, while simultaneously counter-attacking by making them shoot themselves. ...Believe me; it would happen way faster than I'd be able to retrieve my own gun and shoot them. Chiefly because I'm expecting them to fire as soon as I even so much as flinch. Never pull a gun on someone at close range who already has a gun pointed at you. ...All comes back to that old adage that _action is always faster than reaction. _
> 
> But go ahead. Next time someone's 3-7 feet away from you with a gun to your head, quick-draw your pistol and hip-fire them to death. See if they don't shoot YOU before you shoot THEM.
> 
> ...I DARE ya! Lmao. 🤣


So you're absolutely sure you would be able to divert their line of fire (taught in all defensive classes) AND be able to disarm them, before they can shoot you, and they won't put up a reasonable resistance to this action.
That's fantasy.
We'll ignore the fact that you're setting up a single scenario where you believe you're at the advantage.

The basic fact is, you cannot pretend to be able to always control someone else's actions or firearm. (we'll ignore again that I posed a knife encounter at touch distance)
You CAN control your actions and firearm.
No instructor worth their salt will tell you to fight for ownership of a gun already presented when you have an alternative that nobody is contending for.
Divert and defend with the offhand, draw and fire with the primary hand. The angle will not be optimal and you will not be on sights. Learn to fight like this.
Or try fancy martial arts and get shot/stabbed.
Up to you.


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

Kauboy said:


> So you're absolutely sure you would be able to divert their line of fire (taught in all defensive classes) AND be able to disarm them, before they can shoot you,


Absolutely. If they're an arm's reach away, even slightly further, the _extremely_ simple action of taking a half-step while grabbing their wrist will get me out of the line of fire. Takes less than a second. Doesn't matter if they pull the trigger; I'll have not only already pivoted from my original position, but ALSO gained control of the gun by seizing control of his forearm and wrist. And then I finish taking my step while using my thumb to control the top of his hand, (the one holding the gun; I can direct his line of fire with my thumb. I'm going to reflexively redirect his line of fire towards himself, possibly snapping his wrist; if his finger was already on the triggerlike an idiot, the impending disarm is going to break his finger right after he's forced to shoot himself with his own gun.



Kauboy said:


> and they won't put up a reasonable resistance to this action.


They won't have the time. They can only react once I've made my move, and their reaction is going to be panic. They won't know they've been shot until it's too late; it would happen so fast they probably wouldn't be able to actual register in their brains what the hell just happened.



Kauboy said:


> That's fantasy.


For people who haven't been training in martial arts since they were five, yeah, probably. If you have no idea how to disarm a gunman, don't even bother trying.



Kauboy said:


> We'll ignore the fact that you're setting up a single scenario where you believe you're at the advantage.


Good; because it was actually somebody else who set up the scenario in a previous post lmao. 🙄

(Gunman 3-7 feet away.) If they're 3-5 feet away; I'd be making my move immediately; putting my hands up in the universal gesticuation for "I surrender" or "I don't want to fight"...which also happens to be a great fighting stance and put my hands a lot closer to his gun. If he's 6-7 feet away, I'd have to feign cooperation a couple seconds longer than I would if he were already within arm's reach. Once he's in reach, if he hasn't shot me yet, he's as good as finished; a straight-up dead man aiming lmao. One thing's for sure though, he's DEFINITELY gonna shoot me if I look like I'm going for a weapon. That would be a BAD IDEA no matter which way you look at it. END OF STORY. Peace out y'all. ✌


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

PS: ...The "disarm" happens when his corpse goes limp and he let's go of the gun I made him shoot himself with because he's a little too dead to hold onto it any longer. 😜


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

PPS: Disarming a rifle would be even easier because of the insane amount of leverage it offers. They might as well have just given me control of their entire body lmao. 🤣


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## 40175 (Jan 11, 2022)

PPPS: Rifles, handguns, knives, clubs, baseball bats, grenades; doesn't really matter what kinda weapon they're threatening me with; I'm trained to take control of it and use it against them. ...I actually wished I knew a more FRIENDLY martial art, but daddy made Krav my specialty. 😕

...Mixed-feelings on it. 😔


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)




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## nondakotagroer (Jan 11, 2022)

I think you should have dropped from this discussion many posts ago Nora. As it is going you are becoming more and more alienated from the rest of the group. Sometimes it is better to just step back and let things ride. I know that you have father issue problems. I have memory..and I can recall your first post greetings from montana. I hope I do not have to read about it forever.

Have you done anything to prep yet, in the past 8 days?


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## ItsJustMe (Dec 12, 2020)

Let's get back to the original premise ... "know ... limitations". Insofar as a gunfight goes, I am familiar with all the tactics mentioned herein. Will I be able to perform any of them in a split second in a real gunfight? I don't know. Will I be better than the Bad Guy? Who knows? It's easy to say you will do this or that in a sudden, unexpected situation. Too many variables. When I was training hard, each scenario was set up in advance and I was taught what to do in advance and the Bad Guy was a paper target stapled to the backstop at the range. If I screwed up, we just did it again. That isn't gonna happen in a real life situation.

I am a small, senior woman. I know I won't be diving into any ditches or throwing myself on the ground to do a roll away while firing. Probably break a hip or something, lol. During training, we had to make allowances for that. So, I will do the best I can if this situation ever comes up. But I rely FIRST on situational awareness and avoidance.

Edit to add: Exception: Threaten my dog or my grandchildren and I will come out with guns blazing!!!


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## nondakotagroer (Jan 11, 2022)

thank you itsjustme, I am getting up there in age too. What I could do when in pistol league is not happening anymore. Situational awareness..that is the best technique.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

SAD.

Situation aware.
Avoidance.
Deescalation.

In that order.


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## BamaDOC (Feb 5, 2020)

BennyMG1 said:


> An instructor I know told me that practice without direction just hones mistakes, not skills. Now that ammo is back online, I’m planning to seek some professional help.


great quote @BennyMG1, 

I tell my students... perfect practice every time.. otherwise you're just reinforcing bad habits...


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## BamaDOC (Feb 5, 2020)

Maine-Marine said:


> it is the same with all things... I was coaching baseball last year and this one kid had a horrible stance and could not hit the ball. I said to him one day - do you want to stay a little longer and work on your hitting . he said no.. So I said to him (in front of his dad), OK as long as you are happy doing it wrong and not hitting the ball
> 
> I tell my kid all the time - if you practice doing it wrong you will get really really really good at doing it wrong...and doing it wrong will be come second nature


amen


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Not claiming any distinctions on Marksmarmanship except a few old dust collectors..but do recall the hardest whipping I ever got from my Daddy as a kid was when he sent me out with two smooth rocks to go squirell hunting and I came back with only one squirrel for supper. It was brutal so i learned how to get better. Kindly dont make me show the trophies. Thanks.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

...I'm going for _theirs_...

Sure, it's funny to suggest possible ins and outs of facing a guy with a handgun. Then again, there is one item most "gun guys" over look. And that's knives.

Way back when about the time that cannibals walked across our northern states, there were learned individuals who had respect for all martial items, and not just ones that go "bang."

I once showed a gun guy just how this thing worked. One guy said "one, two, three--"GO" and the demonstration showed just how wrong a 'genius' can become.

If you count all the snaps, balances and weights of a firearm on your hip, remember that naked steel is faster, sharper and biologically terminal to a dude who figures bullets beat everything. When I had to show the fellas in my dorm on this issues circumstances, the losers implied I must have "lubed my knife sheath with *butter*" because every man knows that _*guns kill everything*_.

Oh, you might still have a gun, but my guess you'll also have 30 to 50 sutures for healing...


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## Buckman (Sep 24, 2020)

Kauboy said:


>


Right? 
I’ve never met a real bada$$ who had to brag about it.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

BTW, I have an "idiot of the day" that might make our list!

Why does this guy (or anyone) start making single sentences in the notification column reporting on just about 'thin air'? If I need something, I'll post a thread. Really, I do not think this guy is a mod. If so, we would have read--and deleted--all of this worm food decades ago.

When I see this stuff I just delete it. And ya' know, I haven't missed a single thing...


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