# Best S N I P E R round 6.5 308 300 WM



## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

I'm sure this topic has already been talked about many times since the beginning of this forum, but since I'm fairly new and it's a topic I enjoy...

For at least 3 decades the .308 was thought of as the best sniper round. I'm a big fan of it myself. However, after reading Chris Kyle's_ American Sniper_ I have also come to respect the 300 Win Mag. Both use same size bullets (as you all probably know) but the cases are different in size and the 300 uses magnum powders, where as the 308 and 5.56 can share many powders.

I like the 165 grain mounted to a .308 and a 190 grain on a 300 Win Mag. If I could only choose one of them I don't know which is would be. My first question would be what is the terrain like where I'll be needing it. In one gun book I picked up the author called the .308 the "North American" round and the 300 Win Mag the "African" round. Meaning the .308 could take down anything living on our continent and the 300 Win Mag on the African continent.

Many believe the 6.5 creedmore is all that and a bag of chips. I've read many reviews, talked to a few who own them and they make it sound like it's the single best caliber to ever exist. Having no first hand knowledge, I can't say.

What can I say, I'm a fan of the bigger (30) calibers. If I had a bigger budget I'd probably be a fan of the .338 .416 or 50 BMG... 
I don't know if there is even a way to determine which is best, because I'm in agreement with the theory of the bullet, barrel and shooter all have to be able to be right on target, together, each time in order to get the best shot.

(if anybody has any insider information on experimental barrel twist rates other than 1:10 for the 30 caliber, now would be a good time to share)


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Since I figure I'll need to reload, sharing powders in very important to me.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

300 Win Mag is my choice, reason body armor. 225 grain BT match which is the rifles choice not mine.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I might as well think M118LR is the best sniper round, considering I have cases of it. To late to switch horses, now.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

There are other calibers too. 338 lapua and 50 cal. come to mind. Both are very effective long range.


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## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

Camel923 said:


> There are other calibers too. 338 lapua and 50 cal. come to mind. Both are very effective long range.


 @Camel923 (dude, did ya read the entire post..? I made mention of the .338, .416 and 50 BMG as well)


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## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

Denton said:


> I might as well think M118LR is the best sniper round, considering I have cases of it. To late to switch horses, now.


 @Denton is my memory correct, that some of the special forces group prefer the 175 gr to the 165/168? When I did my testing for my rifle, I couldn't find any 175 to see how it did. But it really likes the 165. ONE time I got three shots inside a dime at 100 yds. (I smiled all the way home from the range.) I have a Savage model 10 with a 24" heavy barrel.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Interesting article on barrel life in the current Guns & Ammo.
A few specific examples are listed in a chart.
.300 Win Mag - 1,200 rounds (As per the US Army Special Forces Sniper Course)
6.5 PRC - 1,400 - 1,600 rounds
6.5 Creedmore - 3,000 rounds
.223 Remington - 10,000+ rounds

So, if you're shopping for a high-zoot sniper rifle, don't forget to budget the cost of replacing barrels. You will need it.

Meanwhile, a $159.00 Mosin Nagant is accurate out to 600 yards.


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## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Interesting article on barrel life in the current Guns & Ammo.
> A few specific examples are listed in a chart.
> .300 Win Mag - 1,200 rounds (As per the US Army Special Forces Sniper Course)
> 6.5 PRC - 1,400 - 1,600 rounds
> ...


Is that the August or Sept issue? Thanks for this info!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

BookWorm said:


> @Denton is my memory correct, that some of the special forces group prefer the 175 gr to the 165/168? When I did my testing for my rifle, I couldn't find any 175 to see how it did. But it really likes the 165. ONE time I got three shots inside a dime at 100 yds. (I smiled all the way home from the range.) I have a Savage model 10 with a 24" heavy barrel.


175 grain is what I stock, and I also launch them from a Savage model 10, mostly.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fed...low-point-bulk-500-rounds-xm188cs-p-3393.aspx


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

BookWorm said:


> Is that the August or Sept issue? Thanks for this info!


October 2018.
Just came in the mail on Friday.


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## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Interesting article on barrel life in the current Guns & Ammo.
> A few specific examples are listed in a chart.
> .300 Win Mag - 1,200 rounds (As per the US Army Special Forces Sniper Course)
> 6.5 PRC - 1,400 - 1,600 rounds
> ...


Did they list anything for 308?


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## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

Here's a good read on the history of the M118:

http://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

First you have to consider the weapon it will be fired from. The Rifle the US Army and the rest are using today as their top one in no everyday weapon. Few could afford one. The newest Rifles have a lot longer barrel life that those in the past.
You will get your longest range for the 300 win mag and the 6.5 Creedmoore. However few are going to hit much at those ranges.
More latter have to run emergence.
The round that is best depends on the weapon it is being fired from. On our 308,s it needs to be 168gr or higher the 178 Gr seem to be best at longer range. ,6.5 Creedmoore the 140gr shines as the range increases.
Keep in mind the number listed on the 300mag shooting 1800 meters are with match grade ammo. The 308 with right round from a good weapon will out shoot most people. My old M24's will shoot 800 meters They can do more but that is pushing it. 
An affordable RPR 6.5 creedmoore can shoot 1600 Yards and has a good barrel life. Another point is almost anyone can swap barrels.(same is true in any of the offered calibers.)
The highest end Sniper rifles they are using today have barrel life numbers far beyond guns and ammo article. 
Do some reading on the XM2010 and the M2010 enhanced. Of course the commercial version you can buy is in the ranger of $18,000. Seems it is one of those if you have to ask the price don't bother it is not for you.


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## Mosinator762x54r (Nov 4, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Interesting article on barrel life in the current Guns & Ammo.
> A few specific examples are listed in a chart.
> .300 Win Mag - 1,200 rounds (As per the US Army Special Forces Sniper Course)
> 6.5 PRC - 1,400 - 1,600 rounds
> ...


Where can we find $159 Mosins right now?


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

The best sniper round/ rifle is the one that you can hit things with a long way away. 

I have the .223Rem, .224Val, .308Win, .30-06 and the 6.5CM all are very accurate guns. I only have access to 400 yards right now, so I cannot take too much advantage of the superior ballistic coefficient bullets the .224Val and the 6.5CM use. Out to 400 yards I can hit an orange everytime and sometimes a golf ball with all of those calibers. Very few of my rifles are field guns, most are heavy barreled rifles that are best suited for stationary use. My other rifles are what I consider field use and will also hit out to 300 and 400 yards just not as easily as the others. 

Last week I was ringing gongs out to 300 yards with a 300 Blackout shooting offhand behind a 3-9x40 Nikon Prostaff at 100 yards I was 90% on a 6 inch gong, at 200 I was about 50% at the same size gong, and at 300 I was probably closer to 20% at an 8 inch gong. Knowing the scope dial ups goes a long way into hitting your target. When shooting from the bench my percentages should be a lot higher at each distance. I need a lot of practice shooting off hand,(it ain't as easy as it once was).

The point on this whole long post is all of the rounds you spoke of with the right rifle, proper distance and shooter would make excellent sniper rounds. I don't believe there is a best but, there may be a general use round. That is not perfect at any one thing but will do the job when called upon, in my opinion that round is the 30-06. It can be loaded as light as 110 grain and as heavy as 200 grains, with a 1-10 twist barrel it will shoot them all. YMMV.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

MikeTango said:


> Did they list anything for 308?


Not specifically. There are some general conclusions drawn regarding chamber pressure and barrel life.

"The key ingredient here is high pressure, barrels don't last as the pressure rises...............Pressurized gas in the chamber blasts the throat. The throat, under extreme heat and pressure, rapidly moves between the solid and liquid phase. The bore melts a little bit from the heat and the pressure blasts the metal away."

The cartridges listed in the chart show the short barrel life have max SAAMI pressure between 62,000 and 65,000 psi, where the .223 Remington has a max SAAMI of 55,000 psi.
So, if you know the SAAMI pressure for the .308 you can make an informed guesstimation.

"It pays to know SAAMI maximum pressure for any cartridge of interest."


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Mosinator762x54r said:


> Where can we find $159 Mosins right now?


i was just taking a WAG. My 1943 Izhevsk 91/30 was $119 complete with accessories, my pristine 1948 Izhevsk M44 cost $139 and worth every penny at a time when a plain-jane 91/30 was $99.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Mosinator762x54r said:


> Where can we find $159 Mosins right now?


Ohh, forgot to add - every time an original Mosin Nagant is "sporterized" or otherwise changed beyond return, the values of mine rise exponentially, thanks to Bubba.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

dsdmmat said:


> The best sniper round/ rifle is the one that *you can hit things with a long way away.
> *
> 
> .


I have to agree with that.

Here a 400yd shot is long range.:

I've a .222 rem that will hit a dime every time at 200 yds. Which eye to shoot the woodchuck in?

M1A NM will do MOA as good of most of my bolts to 400 yds ( IMR 4198 41 grs, LC case, CCI 200 primers). Plus is a 20 rd magazine.

pre-64 70 300 WM I can't really use the yardage, but it damm sure shoots well. I use same bullets /powders as in my 30-06.

Another pre-64 70, 06. That I've worked up nosler 180 gr partions, < MOA and I've got > 2000 rounds on that load ( IMR 4350 54gr , RP case, CCI 200 primers). Not a great sniper bullet, but same load for many many years now in same rifle. Best bullet for game in NA. That has an old Denver Redfield 6 X 9/redfield mounts, W/butler creek covers. I can hit targets (woodchucks) moving > 100 yds with that most every time, off hand. 400 yds off a rest. No range finder/crutch. Learned to range off duplex reticle, takes a lot of rounds.....

That said, ammo. My most accurate gun is an old M700 .222 Rem, dime every time. Does that with Win or Rem psp 50gr. BUT one is 1.5' left and 1" higher than the other at 100 yds. Those two shot shot so well never worked up a load, just adjusted 0. Learned about wind with that gun. Little 50gr .222 (about a < .223) would drift at 200 yds. Look at the leaves/grass blowing. Don't sight in on a windy day. Practice on a windy day so when you need too can hold/right/left.

So a good gun with range time/dirt time, = more than a scoped 50 BMG with a newbie


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## WhatTheHeck (Aug 1, 2018)

Concerning the 5.56 round, please note it has gone through several iterations: 55grn, 62grn, the 77grn and now, the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#SS109/M855

If and when the DoD adopts the 6.5USA, I expect the 5.56/.223 to become a obsolete round, regulated to varmint circles of woodchuck or prairie dog shooters.

As for the other offerings mentioned in the OP, I would love to own a number of the 6.5s, or .338LM, but I am too far invested in the 7.62/.308WIN to indulge in other calibers. 
With the 7.62/.308WIN, I can load it for a variety of tasks: 100grn round nose with a light load for small game to 168grn for large or heavy game like moose or black bear. 
The same could be said for the 30-06, the .30WINMAG or various other rounds if you reload your own.

But cost comes into factor. 
Some of the larger, shall I say, sexier rounds, squeeze trigger and there goes a few dollars or more down range. Sorry gents, but most of us are on a budget or even a strict budget.
I know I am. So I have to make do with what I have. 
As a Expert Rifleman, I am expected to be able to pick up any firearm, a few minutes familiarization with the action and trigger, to be able to hit everything I can see within the limits of the round the rifle is chambered for.

I think the mastery of the fundamentals are more important then a given caliber. 
I have a co-worker who owns a custom Remington 700, with a McMillian stock and a Nightforce scope. He can print some very nice groups, at a 100yards, sitting off a bench with a Cadwell rest. Listening to him, you would think he trained Chris Kyle himself the way he talks.
Take away the bench and Codwell and even off a bi-pod, his groups at 100yards get to 2-3 MOA. 
Is it his trigger control/muzzle management? Breathing? 
He is overweight, smokes a pack of cigarettes a day, gets winded walking even a 100yards.
Yet, because he owns a given piece of equipment, he thinks he is a sniper.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.


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## WhatTheHeck (Aug 1, 2018)

To add: The late, great Gunnery SGT Carlos Hathcock, did quite well with a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06. 
From what I have read, his recommendation to the USMC was for snipers to use the 30-06 in the Model 70.


Some beancounter at the Pentagon, figured he could procure a Remington 700 at a lower cost. 
Lesson learned: In the DoD, as Murpheys law states, your weapon system is made by the lowest bidder (based off the Operational Requirement Document).


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## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

rice paddy daddy said:


> October 2018.
> Just came in the mail on Friday.


@ricepaddydaddy The wife and I went to the mall today to look for some stuff, found the new copy of Guns & Ammo and read that article. Had some interesting tidbits. Thanks for point it out.


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## BookWorm (Jul 8, 2018)

MikeTango said:


> Here's a good read on the history of the M118:
> 
> History of the M118 Ammunition - Sniper Central


 @MikeTango You're right, that was a good read. Thanks for sharing the link


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

i can do just fine with my 1943 Remington US Rifle, Cal 30, Model 1903A3 with its iron sights.

After all, I am not a 22 year old 11B (US Army Light Weapons Infantry) in some third world shit hole country where ranges may extend out to several thousand yards.

@Smitty901 Were there free fire zones in Iraq or Afghanistan like we had in parts of Vietnam where any person not American or Allied was presumed to be the enemy and could be/was shot?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> i can do just fine with my 1943 Remington US Rifle, Cal 30, Model 1903A3 with its iron sights.
> 
> After all, I am not a 22 year old 11B (US Army Light Weapons Infantry) in some third world shit hole country where ranges may extend out to several thousand yards.
> 
> @Smitty901 Were there free fire zones in Iraq or Afghanistan like we had in parts of Vietnam where any person not American or Allied was presumed to be the enemy and could be/was shot?


 Not officially.
I also own a 1903 Springfield it is a great 30.06 rifle I would not say t was better than others I have.
Sniper is a term often way over used. What was very effective were designated Marksman. They were just everyday soldiers that had received more training in the use of weapons meant for longer range use . The m14 was a common issue for their use. Along with M24's still on hand. Not that a m4 could not do it the m14 and m24 was much better for 700-800 meter shots. The DM was used for defense and over watch. It is a successful program you seldom hear about. Unlike sniper position that are limited you can have as many train DM as you can get to the training, it is an additional duty.


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## WhatTheHeck (Aug 1, 2018)

rice paddy daddy said:


> i can do just fine with my 1943 Remington US Rifle, Cal 30, Model 1903A3 with its iron sights.
> 
> After all, I am not a 22 year old 11B (US Army Light Weapons Infantry) in some third world shit hole country where ranges may extend out to several thousand yards.
> 
> @Smitty901 Were there free fire zones in Iraq or Afghanistan like we had in parts of Vietnam where any person not American or Allied was presumed to be the enemy and could be/was shot?


Well said.

Out in Afghanistan, at extended ranges (past 200 yards) the 5.56 did not do so well. Especially if there were winds, which is not uncommon in that kind of environment.

A number of German Personal Support Detachments were armed with old scoped G3s.

The Finish, my god were they awesome. They concentrated on markmanship. A platoon of Finns with bolt action rifles would and could tear up an opposing force.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

WhatTheHeck said:


> Well said.
> 
> Out in Afghanistan, at extended ranges (past 200 yards) the 5.56 did not do so well. Especially if there were winds, which is not uncommon in that kind of environment.
> 
> ...


 What is that based on? The 5.56 may get a lot of bad press but 90% is babble.

308 vs 6.5 Creedmoore. 308 makes a slightly larger hole. The 308 generally fires a heavier round. Out to 500 yards flip a coin in closer the 308 may offer some advantage. 500 yards and more the 6.5 Creedmoore takes over.
Flatter shooter and is a lot more torrential of wind . My 6.5 Creedmoore with 140 gr match Hornady at 500 yards still has 2023 Velocity
FPS and energy of 1273. The 147 gr is at 2092 and 1428. That is the point were the 308 is really starting to fall off. You do also have to consider cost of both weapon and rounds. 6.5 Creedmoore is coming down but 308 is still more budget friendly .
I will never let the 308's go, just as our older 30.06's are here to stay. The 6.5 Creedmoore has found a home here also.


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## WhatTheHeck (Aug 1, 2018)

Smitty901 said:


> What is that based on? The 5.56 may get a lot of bad press but 90% is babble.


Personal observations from a one year deployment to rural Afghanistan.

Various conversations with other vets.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

WhatTheHeck said:


> Personal observations from a one year deployment to rural Afghanistan.
> 
> Various conversations with other vets.


 23 years many of them with every version of the m16 and the m4 never found it to be any more or less effected by wind. Lot of miss information out there. All of those 23 years were spent as an 11B . I do know that many soldiers did not either get the best training and or ignored a lot of it when it came to adjusting for wind.


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