# Small group versus large group - POST SHTF



## Maine-Marine

In another thread Real Old Man and Myself were discussing the merits and down falls of POST SHTF communities.



Real Old Man said:


> A year of preps is worthless if you have no local infrastructure (communications, transportation, food production, medical, law enforcement/security just to name a few) on which to build.


If I have a years worth of preps, it takes a massive amount of pressure off me. Since I have a buffer from starvation, I can spend time doing other things besides gathering food. Having food gives me more time for security, planning on growing sustainable crops, and other things that would have had to take a back seat to food gathering



Real Old Man said:


> A year's worth of preps are great, but if you no way to sustain that all you are doing is to postpone the inevitable. Likewise without a support infrastructure you are going to be hard pressed to defend what you have, heal those that get sick or injured - first aid and combat lifesaver only go so far - or educate your children's children. A few friends are all well and good, but can not compare to a small community of say 500 folks living in a moderate climate with natural rivers and extensive acreage under cultivation of with active cattle herds


I have said (as have many others) that being able to sustain food production is very important. many people throughout history have sustained their families with gardens. Post shtf things will be different for sure - little susie and johnny might not be getting formal education but they will learn the things needed to survive. Some folks might die from an appendix. NO matter where you are at what are the chances you will have a fully trained doctor and needed supplies. I would think that there would be a local doctor that folks would work with. I have a family doctor and come SHTF, I would reach out to him and discuss ways to work with him.

I would not try and build a community of 500 just to have infrastructure to provide myself comfort and security. I would not join a community of 500 in order to gain security.

A community of 500 will have a large target on them 1st by the government to share resources and then by gangs and others to take over.

even with an active cattle ranch or two... a 1200 lb cow produces about 500 lbs of meat (How Much Meat Can You Expect from a Fed Steer?)

that is 3 cows every week.. even at 2 cows a week you are talking 104 cows a year.. you would need three times that number in order to reproduce, protect against disease loss, and predators... now you have to feed and manage over 300 cows. you need 2 acres per calf and more for larger cows. If you start butchering early/younger you need 600 cows.

feeding 500 people is going to be a problem...post shtf who is going to assign jobs and make sure people do the jobs.

what do you do with the lazy people
What do you do with cheats and thieves, druggies, etc?
what do you do when the meds run out

out of 500 people , how many will be ready or having enough food to last until harvest. 
Am I to assume that farmers are just going to open their store houses and start sharing with the other folks??? 
What happens if SHTF right after the farmers ship their harvest/livestock to market and are in a regrowing or reproduction stage

With a 500 person community you need to hope and pray that SHTF at JUST the right time after harvest and before shipping to market.
to early and you end up eating your breeding stocking and you have to wait for crops to grow
to late and you end up with no produce and just breeding stock



Real Old Man said:


> There is no way you and your few friends will be able to address all the situations that cold arise especially if as you and a couple of others have alluded to the total break down in society.
> 
> When your axe breaks where will you get another? If your solar cells fail will you be able to find a well point and pump so you'll have fresh water? And who will be there to give those new born children their vaccines against small pox, measles, and the like?
> 
> A small community of 500 is large enough to have most of the necessary skill sets (and it also happens to be the size of the small community that surrounds our farm.
> 
> And while folks have survived without those things, they do make life a whole lot easier to deal with.


Your right that small groups will not be able to Address all situations. We will adapted and improvise - be it getting an ax handle or fixing a well pump.

Children might have to suffer through chicken pox and measles.. of course chance are they will also get it in a community of 500 unless you can produce your own vaccines - which you can not, unless your county has some pretty good research people and advance med facility.

Small pox has a 50% mortality rate, chicken pox is much lower and measles are rarely fatal - but yes medical is a concern... but it is not as big a concern as illness in general when you have 500 people to make sure are correctly getting rid of waste and dead bodies.

Post SHTF
a community of 500 will need a strong hand, stronger then many people will put up with. Your community of 500 might be nice and friendly now.. but take away the grocery stores, air conditioning, bottled water and make them line up for food from the local farmers and require they help with planting and put in 8 hours of labor hauling water or working on pumps-

I understand the need for community but post SHTF 500 people will go through a lot of food quickly... watch the local stores and see how many trucks haul in canned supplies daily or weekly. You will need over 10500 pounds of food per week (that is based on 3 lbs per day not the suggested 4)

smaller groups will have fewer dramas and civic emergencies. It also allows for a controlled and known group of people. As an example I have a plan (If needed) to join up with 2 other families in a very rural location that is easy to defend... I know them they know me... we all prep..food, guns, medical etc..

SO..

Water - Less needed and easier to keep people away from contaminating it 
Food - A smaller group will be easier to take care of and easier to keep people working
Shelter - easier to heat and maintain one or two buildings
security - smaller groups have less people to watch but would also be less of a target and easier to train smaller groups and work a basic commo system
medical - both will have issues unless their is a doctor close by

I just do not trust that 500 people will be able to come together and form a group that will truly work well...

WHAT SAY YOU


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## Operator6

A small community where the individuals are already known to each other is a perfect situation. In a rural setting not much would need to change in some communities, an example of this would be an Amish community.


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## sideKahr

Excellent analysis, MM. You have put a lot of thought into this, and it shows. I'd need to look at it closer before having an opinion worth anything, so I'll refrain from commenting for the present, as I have to run.

I wish I had the luxury of knowing just 10 other preppers. I'm afraid my group will be very small.


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## Camel923

Large or small groups require a strong leader. There is no room for descent or lasiness as all are interdependent. Death for say stealing would be a normal punishment IMHO. Banishment opens the door to a returns with a larger group bent on pillage, rape and murder putting all at unacceptable risk. In school I always disliked assigned group projects because there was always a slacker or two that others had to do their work to get an acceptable grade. Meanwhile the slacker got the same reward as those that actually worked. That communist/egalitarian idea will not work when starvation is staring everyone in the eye. Jamestown and the Pilgrims both found this out the hard way. While I prefer smaller groups, I do acknowledge advantages of larger communities.


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## Tennessee

First off 500 people is a community or even a small town. When I think of a group of people I thinking under 25 people but that’s just me. And if I had a choice of going it alone or belong to a group I would chose the group.

But then again it really depends on the perimeters. What are the resources in the area? 500 people on 2 acres is too much but 500 on 1000000 maybe a good fit.

It’s hard to answer you without you quantify or qualify you statement. Just saying large group vs a small group then assigning them arbitrary numbers isn’t enough information for me to give you an intelligent answer.

It obvious that large groups of people work can work together, just look at are large cities and towns. But there must be resources, even for small groups to work.


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## Maine-Marine

Camel923 said:


> While I prefer smaller groups, I do acknowledge advantages of larger communities.


 @Camel923

here is the question. What are the "real" advantages (per scenario) of a large group and are those advantages worth the inherent negatives that come with 500 people

In an pandemic - it will be really hard to control the comings and goings of 500 people and what about people wanting to pass through or go to relatives homes within the area

EMP where nothing is working?

how are you going to control ingress and egress roads, rivers, trails? you will need several people per avenue of travel and then shifts on top of that and the best spot to have a check point might be miles out of town.

if you are on a river...what is up river.. better yet - what are people putting in the water 2, 5, 20 miles up river...


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## Maine-Marine

Tennessee said:


> First off 500 people is a community or even a small town. When I think of a group of people I thinking under 25 people but that's just me. And if I had a choice of going it alone or belong to a group I would chose the group.
> 
> But then again it really depends on the perimeters. What are the resources in the area? 500 people on 2 acres is too much but 500 on 1000000 maybe a good fit.
> 
> It's hard to answer you without you quantify or qualify you statement. Just saying large group vs a small group then assigning them arbitrary numbers isn't enough information for me to give you an intelligent answer.
> 
> It obvious that large groups of people work can work together. Just look at are large cities and towns. But there must be resources, even for small groups to work.


I was using the numbers REAL OLD MAN laid out.... did you read the First post.... I assume that 500 was his area within a county and I mention that. He mentions that 500 number twice.

Large cities work together today.. but take away the super market, food stamps, refrigeration, cars, and heating oil... see what happens

I am not going to redo the points.. please go back to the top and reread the complete first post


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## Slippy

First thing I'd do is get some shipping containers and some slaves to empty the crap buckets...:vs_smirk:


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## Camel923

Maine-Marine said:


> @Camel923
> 
> here is the question. What are the "real" advantages (per scenario) of a large group and are those advantages worth the inherent negatives that come with 500 people
> 
> In an pandemic - it will be really hard to control the comings and goings of 500 people and what about people wanting to pass through or go to relatives homes within the area
> 
> EMP where nothing is working?
> 
> how are you going to control ingress and egress roads, rivers, trails? you will need several people per avenue of travel and then shifts on top of that and the best spot to have a check point might be miles out of town.
> 
> if you are on a river...what is up river.. better yet - what are people putting in the water 2, 5, 20 miles up river...


All good points. Different solutions are optimal in different situations. One must pre decide on a variety of possible factors that may or may not be issues in a SHTF situation. Each has to decide for themselves. If I am at ground zero of a nuclear detonation, what difference does it make? One can pull in all kinds of stuff and the best answer changes. I am making my pre SHTF preparations to give me the most flexibility of what I see as most likely. In black jack, do not hit if you have 20. Better chance of winning. Lots of though goes into such decisions and obviously you have and are doing so. Kudos. As I said, I like small but certain situations could make a larger group appealing but there are multiple risks that could be detrimental to you and yours. I am just re examine options to plan what if. I have no imperial evidence to change anyone's mind.
Bosnia war survivor warns of things to come in collapse of America - NaturalNews.com


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## M118LR

Mobility was restricted during the siege of Bosnia. It would take a World Wide Calamity to erase all of mankind's advancements in Medicine and Providers. Even continental disasters shall have the ability to draw on other continents for resources. Preparation only allows more time for the larger unaffected population to supply aid. Self sufficient communes of all sizes (2 people to entire Nation States) have proven to be historical failures. The best solution is global interaction. Of course, it's also the most difficult.


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## SecretPrepper

Slippy said:


> First thing I'd do is get some shipping containers and some slaves to empty the crap buckets...:vs_smirk:


There's a good old throwback.


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## SecretPrepper

:icon_surprised:


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## Operator6

I would definitely join a larger group for security. Smaller groups could be used as a canary for the larger groups. Any raiders in the area would attack soft targets, the smaller group. 

If the river is contaminated for a larger group it will be contaminated for a smaller group. 

With a larger group you have more skill sets. In a survival situation people will have a motive to work together. If you are eliminated from the group it would be a virtual death sentence. Between the group hunting you and the others not in your group.......that's bad JUJU brah.......


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## ND_ponyexpress_

it likely depends on the area of the group and the interaction within the group.. 40 square miles of family farms (15 people/farm) team up for a common cause? sure! sign me up.. 500 people huddled in a burned-out town sapped of resources but huddled together because strength in numbers? I will pass... it's all a matter of context are the 500 members doctors,farmers,engineers and soldiers? are they lawyers, community organizers, and IRS agents?


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## ND_ponyexpress_

big difference between a group of 500 and a community of 500...


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## Denton

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> big difference between a group of 500 and a community of 500...


Thanks. I couldn't figure out what was bugging me about the wording, but you nailed it.


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## Maine-Marine

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> big difference between a group of 500 and a community of 500...


YA because in a 500 member community everybody feels a sense of community so everybody will work and not complain and there will be no bad people in community?

so when somebody starts stealing food or doing some other bad thing. everybody can just hold hands and say we are community

LOL... unless you hand pick the members.. you are getting a smorgasbord of humanity,

In Thailand, in order to be sanitary my Marines had to burn shit with diesel fuel in a 1/2 55 gallon drum and stir it with a big stick, that big stick with shit on the end is what the 500 member community reminds me of... most of stick is clean - but the end.......


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## Fuser1983

Maine-Marine said:


> In Thailand, in order to be sanitary my Marines had to burn shit with diesel fuel in a 1/2 55 gallon drum and stir it with a big stick, that big stick with shit on the end is what the 500 member community reminds me of... most of stick is clean - but the end.......


I think in theory the 500 person group or community sounds nice and like a good idea. However, having to feed, protect, clothe, provide shelter for, maintain sanitary conditions, etc.. for 500 people just isn't feasible in a SHTF scenario.

I would pick a small group. Mostly everything would be easier with a small group, and it would be hand-picked members so we don't end up with that "shit on the end of the stick.."

Other than an attack by a much larger group, I think the smaller scale is the way to go. Or at least it will be what I do.


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## Operator6

A community can consist of smaller organized groups. Each group brings a particular skill or sets of skills. 

Bad people can exist in any group, no matter the size. Twos company and threes a crowd.


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## ND_ponyexpress_

Maine-Marine said:


> YA because in a 500 member community everybody feels a sense of community so everybody will work and not complain and there will be no bad people in community?
> 
> so when somebody starts stealing food or doing some other bad thing. everybody can just hold hands and say we are community
> 
> LOL... unless you hand pick the members.. you are getting a smorgasbord of humanity,
> 
> In Thailand, in order to be sanitary my Marines had to burn shit with diesel fuel in a 1/2 55 gallon drum and stir it with a big stick, that big stick with shit on the end is what the 500 member community reminds me of... most of stick is clean - but the end.......


a community of 50 farms over 40 square Miles... or 500 farms of 1.. which lasts longer? you going to do security and haul water while taking a crap? and after a year you run out of supplies, you come out of your hole and then what? when I say community, I am thinking after the initial flush of humanity.. neighbors come together for mutual survival... yes there may be lazy and worthless people.. but you think they won't get weeded out after 3 months?


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## Maine-Marine

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> a community of 50 farms over 40 square Miles... or 500 farms of 1.. which lasts longer? you going to do security and haul water while taking a crap? and after a year you run out of supplies, you come out of your hole and then what? when I say community, I am thinking after the initial flush of humanity.. neighbors come together for mutual survival... yes there may be lazy and worthless people.. but you think they won't get weeded out after 3 months?


50 farmers?? what about doctors, mechanics, electrical experts...

my thought on this and what i believe in my gut - The best possible SHTF set up is a very small 3+ prepared families in close group off the grid away from the main roads... Once the initial die off happens then look at barter...

but farms and large groups are going to be targets. 1st by FEMA to fulfill needs and then by gangs

I will never join a group that can not be below the radar and away from the main roads..

read "The Jakarta Pandemic" I see things rolling out like that


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## M118LR

Wolves split up during good times and congregate into large packs during hard times. Perhaps there is some wisdom to glean by observing nature. JMHO.


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## A Watchman

Its too early to have this conversation and make an educated decision. We will have to wait until the start of the next season of Walking Dead to see exactly how this large community thing works out.


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## Jakthesoldier

Communities Vs. Networks: To Which Do You Belong? | The Art of Manliness

These thoughts closely reflect my thoughts on the matter.


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## ND_ponyexpress_

Maine-Marine said:


> 50 farmers?? what about doctors, mechanics, electrical experts...
> 
> my thought on this and what i believe in my gut - The best possible SHTF set up is a very small 3+ prepared families in close group off the grid away from the main roads... Once the initial die off happens then look at barter...
> 
> but farms and large groups are going to be targets. 1st by FEMA to fulfill needs and then by gangs
> 
> I will never join a group that can not be below the radar and away from the main roads..
> 
> read "The Jakarta Pandemic" I see things rolling out like that


we obviously have a different vision of farms. family of 4 needs about 2 acres. 3+ families.. plus houses.. now you are on around 10 acres.... off the main roads... that's a farm buddy.


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## Moonshinedave

This topic rears up from time to time, which is ok. I'll give the answer I generally give: if you're in a group somebody has to be in charge, are you going to be okay with following someone orders? How are you going to be sure you are joining a group for protection from the bad guys and not joining a group of bad guys?


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## M118LR

1862: With the secession of Southern states from the Union and therefore removal of the slavery issue, finally, in 1862, the Homestead Act was passed and signed into law. The new law established a three-fold homestead acquisition process: filing an application, improving the land, and filing for deed of title. Any U.S. citizen, or intended citizen, who had never borne arms against the U.S. Government could file an application and lay claim to 160 acres of surveyed Government land. For the next 5 years, the homesteader had to live on the land and improve it by building a 12-by-14 dwelling and growing crops. After 5 years, the homesteader could file for his patent (or deed of title) by submitting proof of residency and the required improvements to a local land office. 
https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/homestead-act/

Should a significant SHTF event occur, perhaps Y'all best consider 1860's productivity.


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## NotTooProudToHide

Interesting concept and debate. If you have adequate resources then I'm inclined to go with the larger group simply because the more people you have the safer you are from other groups, the more skill sets you have like doctors and engineer which would eventually lead to a better chance of getting things back to as close to normal as you can get. Like others said there will be criminal elements and slackers that will have to be dealt with, so with a larger group you will need strong leadership and you will have to police yourselves. I liked how they addressed this in the History Channel's Day after Armageddon. In the community they ended up in the local sheriff summarily executed people stealing from the store house.

On the other hand more people means more chances for disease to spread, sanitation becomes a much greater issue, and you have to constantly worry about your food supplies but I guess you have to do that in a small group as well.


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## M118LR

All I hear on these forums are about folks that shall need to be dealt with! Want to step up and tell me how these folks shall be dealt with once I am no longer here to deal with them?

PS: Okay Denton, now you can toss your inappropriate Bad Ass out! Not to mention the Mickey Rourke kibitzer!


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## Maine-Marine

M118LR said:


> Wolves split up during good times and congregate into large packs during hard times. Perhaps there is some wisdom to glean by observing nature. JMHO.


First - the above is NOT true.. Wolves have a pack during good and bad times

second - bad times would be when FOOD is scarce....


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## Operator6

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> we obviously have a different vision of farms. family of 4 needs about 2 acres. 3+ families.. plus houses.. now you are on around 10 acres.... off the main roads... that's a farm buddy.


But but......lol !!!! Exactly, and this small farm would be attacked if they didn't join the larger group. Sitting ducks.......


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## Maine-Marine

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> we obviously have a different vision of farms. family of 4 needs about 2 acres. 3+ families.. plus houses.. now you are on around 10 acres.... off the main roads... that's a farm.


I do not think I ever said what I thought a farm was. Hell I thought that it was self explanatory. Some are smaller some are larger, its good to know that you think a person needs 10 acres to be considered a farm


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## Slippy

Maine-Marine said:


> First - the above is NOT true.. Wolves have a pack during good and bad times
> 
> second - bad times would be when FOOD is scarce....


I may be wrong but I also believe Adolescent Male Wolves are often thrown out of the pack by the Alpha. Sometimes they form smaller packs consisting of other young males. Sometimes the hunt alone until they find a new pack and overthrow an old Alpha.

Most wolves need shot.


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## NotTooProudToHide

M118LR said:


> All I hear on these forums are about folks that shall need to be dealt with! Want to step up and tell me how these folks shall be dealt with once I am no longer here to deal with them?
> 
> PS: Okay Denton, now you can toss your inappropriate Bad Ass out! Not to mention the Mickey Rourke kibitzer!


I'm fairly confident we'll find a way to manage without you.


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## Maine-Marine

What do you think the chances are that somebody could find this location by accident?







What do you think the chances are that somebody by random selection would happen to make the turns needed to get from a main road to this location
Do you think somebody could smell food that far away and figure direction?

SHTF there will be LOTS of back roads place that never see a raider or a marauder or a stranger

I doubt however that larger communities will be unscathed. It is hard to block off entrance to a large area without a massive security force and lots of patrols - and patrols take away form planting and other things.

Even the military knows that for every 1 fighter you need several support folks


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## NotTooProudToHide

Maine-Marine said:


> What do you think the chances are that somebody could find this location by accident?
> What do you think the chances are that somebody by random selection would happen to make the turns needed to get from a main road to this location
> Do you think somebody could smell food that far away and figure direction?
> 
> SHTF there will be LOTS of back roads place that never see a raider or a marauder or a stranger
> 
> I doubt however that larger communities will be unscathed. It is hard to block off entrance to a large area without a massive security force and lots of patrols - and patrols take away form planting and other things.
> 
> Even the military knows that for every 1 fighter you need several support folks


You're correct that larger groups are probably not going to go unscathed and some small groups won't be found but its going to take a large force to take out a large community and there will be a lot of small groups that get overwhelmed. I look towards medieval times where the survivors where the ones that made it to the castle while those caught outside where the ones that had a higher mortality rate.


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## Operator6

Maine-Marine said:


> - The best possible SHTF set up is a very small 3+ prepared families in close group off the grid away from the main roads...
> 
> but farms and large groups are going to be targets. 1st by FEMA to fulfill needs and then by gangs


You described living on a farm with 3 families. Then say that farms are targets......

Exactly, and your farm will be a target that you can't defend with just a few people against a large group, not for long anyway.



Maine-Marine said:


> I do not think I ever said what I thought a farm was. Hell I thought that it was self explanatory. Some are smaller some are larger, its good to know that you think a person needs 10 acres to be considered a farm


It was self explanatory for me, however you certainly made it clear you intend to live on a farm post SHTF with a small group. So you intend to live on a target and expect to be able to defend it against a larger fighting force.

Are you sure you've thought this out ?


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## sideKahr

Just some thoughts, questions actually. This is a complicated subject.

As previously mentioned, a small town in Colonial New England needed about 40 square miles of land around it to provide enough pasturage and wood to be self sustaining for the population. That would be next to impossible for a prepper group to have ready for a SHTF situation. The only way to have that is to live in a self sustaining town that’s already up and running before the disaster. Are there any truly self sustaining towns left in America?

Can, say, 500 ordinary people defend 40 square miles? Didn’t the Army find that during WW2 even among trained troops, only a fraction would fire their weapons at the enemy in battle? 

What is the largest group of raiders you are likely to have to defend against.


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## 7052

There are obvious "pros" to a community. If there weren't, society would never have formed them.

Now, having said that, I would *not* join a large group/community right after SHTF. IMHO, I believe that a smaller group of _roughly in the area of_ 20ish people is probably ideal. Small enough to work together with a minimum of issues, but large enough to have a hope of actual defense should it be needed. Also large enough to work much more land for food production, small enough to be able to "hide" back in the woods.

Obviously, there are a ton of hols in the theory, possible lack of skill-sets, etc. But I think that the lack the numbers also reduces the chances of lay-abouts, troublemakers, criminals, traitors, etc.

Just my $0.02 worth.


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## Slippy

Sign on the railroad tracks near Slippy Lodge;

SANCTUARY...ALL WHO ARRIVE SURVIVE

( Slippy fires up the large man sized outdoor grill...):vs_wave:


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## Real Old Man

I guess I caused this thread to come into being. My original comment that got someone's bowels all in a tizzy was something like a years worth of preps are worthless without some form of community infrastructure to ensure the long term survival. I also (based on where I live) made reference to a 500 population figure.

What got overlooked in all the wrangling was that I'd done an assessment of what surrounds my small farm out to a radius of six miles.

In that area there are 

Two approximately 500 acre each truck garden farms

Four cattle (not dairy) operations of at least 40 head each

Two goat operations with about 40 head each

Two vet clinics (resident)

Two dentists (resident)

Ten doctors

One major Grocery and two minor groceries

Three major truck repair facilities

Three hotel/motel facilities

One drugstore

Two dollar general type stores

Two major road networks 

A major Double track rail line with a rail yard and linkage to a second rail road

One saw mill operation

Three auto parts stores

Just outside this radius 

A Power generation plant.

A grain milling facility

A school complex (high school and middle school)

A branch library

A YMCA

Not included in this summary are things like acreage planted in crops like corn, millet, soy beans and the like and acreage in timber. also not included are two major rivers.

Notice with the exception of the schools and library there is no mention of any governmental functions .

One of the communities slightly north of me already has in place a form of HOA government complete with public works and security. 

there are county deputies and state troopers that live in this area but I've not yet attempted to locate them nor have I looked into the county's water system as we have a well that has yet to go dry in the six years we've been here.

I've also not included other limited resources like truck stops and fast food resturants as their supplies will only last a short period of time.

Also, the majority of the folks that live in this area don't work here - they commute - so the total population on the ground when a shtf event occurs will most likely be smaller.

Will a small community work for everybody? Probably not. For us here it does. We have very few folks on any kind of subsistance. Those that need help usually get it from local charities.

Just don't rule it out and believe you can go it alone. When your childs appendix bursts and needs to be removed do you want a combat life saver like me cutting into her to remove it or a doctor or a vet. Your choice


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## Real Old Man

Egyas said:


> There are obvious "pros" to a community. If there weren't, society would never have formed them.
> 
> Now, having said that, I would *not* join a large group/community right after SHTF. IMHO, I believe that a smaller group of _roughly in the area of_ 20ish people is probably ideal. Small enough to work together with a minimum of issues, but large enough to have a hope of actual defense should it be needed. Also large enough to work much more land for food production, small enough to be able to "hide" back in the woods.
> 
> Obviously, there are a ton of hols in the theory, possible lack of skill-sets, etc. But I think that the lack the numbers also reduces the chances of lay-abouts, troublemakers, criminals, traitors, etc.
> 
> Just my $0.02 worth.


One thing you may want to consider, would you accept an outsider you know nothing about into your group/community after a SHTF event? Probably not, you'd find them in one of your groups to exclude.

The time to join that community or group is well before an event occurs not after


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## Maine-Marine

Egyas said:


> There are obvious "pros" to a community. If there weren't, society would never have formed them.
> 
> Now, having said that, I would *not* join a large group/community right after SHTF. IMHO, I believe that a smaller group of _roughly in the area of_ 20ish people is probably ideal. Small enough to work together with a minimum of issues, but large enough to have a hope of actual defense should it be needed. Also large enough to work much more land for food production, small enough to be able to "hide" back in the woods.
> 
> Obviously, there are a ton of hols in the theory, possible lack of skill-sets, etc. But I think that the lack the numbers also reduces the chances of lay-abouts, troublemakers, criminals, traitors, etc.
> 
> Just my $0.02 worth.


I agree and would add

historical pros for large communities are true based on a vastly different set of circumstances... during the black plague... you would have been much better of away from people.

even with 500 people there will be holes in the skill sets


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> I guess I caused this thread to come into being. My original comment that got someone's bowels all in a tizzy was something like a years worth of preps are worthless without some form of community infrastructure to ensure the long term survival. I also (based on where I live) made reference to a 500 population figure.
> 
> What got overlooked in all the wrangling was that I'd done an assessment of what surrounds my small farm out to a radius of six miles.
> 
> In that area there are
> 
> Two approximately 500 acre each truck garden farms
> 
> Four cattle (not dairy) operations of at least 40 head each
> 
> Two goat operations with about 40 head each
> 
> Two vet clinics (resident)
> 
> Two dentists (resident)
> 
> Ten doctors
> 
> One major Grocery and two minor groceries
> 
> Three major truck repair facilities
> 
> Three hotel/motel facilities
> 
> One drugstore
> 
> Two dollar general type stores
> 
> Two major road networks
> 
> A major Double track rail line with a rail yard and linkage to a second rail road
> 
> One saw mill operation
> 
> Three auto parts stores
> 
> Just outside this radius
> 
> A Power generation plant.
> 
> A grain milling facility
> 
> A school complex (high school and middle school)
> 
> A branch library
> 
> A YMCA
> 
> Not included in this summary are things like acreage planted in crops like corn, millet, soy beans and the like and acreage in timber. also not included are two major rivers.
> 
> Notice with the exception of the schools and library there is no mention of any governmental functions .
> 
> One of the communities slightly north of me already has in place a form of HOA government complete with public works and security.
> 
> there are county deputies and state troopers that live in this area but I've not yet attempted to locate them nor have I looked into the county's water system as we have a well that has yet to go dry in the six years we've been here.
> 
> I've also not included other limited resources like truck stops and fast food resturants as their supplies will only last a short period of time.
> 
> Also, the majority of the folks that live in this area don't work here - they commute - so the total population on the ground when a shtf event occurs will most likely be smaller.
> 
> Will a small community work for everybody? Probably not. For us here it does. We have very few folks on any kind of subsistance. Those that need help usually get it from local charities.
> 
> Just don't rule it out and believe you can go it alone. When your childs appendix bursts and needs to be removed do you want a combat life saver like me cutting into her to remove it or a doctor or a vet. Your choice


after SHTF..how many of those doctors and others are staying there and how many are leaving for family in other places. have you talked to these people

If I based my SHTF decision on if my kids appendix is going to burst..i would be screwed


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> My original comment that got someone's bowels all in a tizzy was something like a years worth of preps are worthless without some form of community infrastructure to ensure the long term survival. I also (based on where I live) made reference to a 500 population figure.


we are here to discuss, debate, and offer facts and comments - work through future events... every time somebody questions your opinion, you do not have think we are against you - Just defend

I would guess your area is on a major road/route?


----------



## NotTooProudToHide

Slippy said:


> Sign on the railroad tracks near Slippy Lodge;
> 
> SANCTUARY...ALL WHO ARRIVE SURVIVE
> 
> ( Slippy fires up the large man sized outdoor grill...):vs_wave:


I think I'm going to take a little trip to Versailles with the ready made castle that I'll rename Winterfell and live out my GOT fantasy's. Bring on the zombies (or white walkers). I'm now accepting applications for the roles of Daenerys, The Mountain, and Brothers of the Nights Watch.


----------



## Real Old Man

Maine-Marine said:


> we are here to discuss, debate, and offer facts and comments - work through future events... every time somebody questions your opinion, you do not have think we are against you - Just defend
> 
> I would guess your area is on a major road/route?


With respect to the doctor several have lived and worked but if yin the county for the last 20 plus years and most own good sized property in the area so as far as them bugging out it's highly unlikely.
As to major transportation routes we're close but not on them with three north - south and two east and west we have many options available not to mention the double track railroad.
If living in a small group works for you I'm happy for your plans include moving into another area or small community after the SHTF then good luck with that one. The time to do that is long before so that they won't consider you an unreliable outsider.
With regards to the appendix it might not be very relevant to you and yours, but the point is still the same. Impacted wisdom teeth, a difficult delivery of a child, even a compound fracture could cause one a lot of grief without proper medical care being available.


----------



## Slippy

NotTooProudToHide said:


> I think I'm going to take a little trip to Versailles with the ready made castle that I'll rename Winterfell and live out my GOT fantasy's. Bring on the zombies (or white walkers). I'm now accepting applications for the roles of Daenerys, The Mountain, and Brothers of the Nights Watch.


I have no idea what you said...But count me in! :vs_wave:


----------



## NotTooProudToHide

Slippy said:


> I have no idea what you said...But count me in! :vs_wave:


There will be pikes, lots of pikes!


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> With respect to the doctor several have lived and worked but if yin the county for the last 20 plus years and most own good sized property in the area so as far as them bugging out it's highly unlikely.
> As to major transportation routes we're close but not on them with three north - south and two east and west we have many options available not to mention the double track railroad.
> If living in a small group works for you I'm happy for your plans include moving into another area or small community after the SHTF then good luck with that one. The time to do that is long before so that they won't consider you an unreliable outsider.
> With regards to the appendix it might not be very relevant to you and yours, but the point is still the same. Impacted wisdom teeth, a difficult delivery of a child, even a compound fracture could cause one a lot of grief without proper medical care being available.


do not forget about hemorrhoids


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> With respect to the doctor several have lived and worked but if yin the county for the last 20 plus years and most own good sized property in the area so as far as them bugging out it's highly unlikely.
> As to major transportation routes we're close but not on them with three north - south and two east and west we have many options available not to mention the double track railroad.
> If living in a small group works for you I'm happy for your plans include moving into another area or small community after the SHTF then good luck with that one. The time to do that is long before so that they won't consider you an unreliable outsider.
> With regards to the appendix it might not be very relevant to you and yours, but the point is still the same. Impacted wisdom teeth, a difficult delivery of a child, even a compound fracture could cause one a lot of grief without proper medical care being available.


So you have a couple of doctors...how many criminals, lazy,, insane, maniac depression problems.

How will you lock down ingress, who will assign jobs.

40 cattle and 40 goats... how long will they last when you start feeding 500 people, 400 people or even 300.

I would guess the vast majority of those 500 people will not have more then 3 weeks of food. When the farmers and ranchers start using their food to feed people - the town will implode quickly

*Lets talk about the food requirements for 500 people and the big question make it SUSTAINABLE.... as I mentioned before you would need over 300 cows to sustain meat*

I am guessing the vast majority of your current food supply comes from outside the area


----------



## Real Old Man

Maine-Marine said:


> So you have a couple of doctors...how many criminals, lazy,, insane, maniac depression problems.
> 
> How will you lock down ingress, who will assign jobs.
> 
> 40 cattle and 40 goats... how long will they last when you start feeding 500 people, 400 people or even 300.
> 
> I would guess the vast majority of those 500 people will not have more then 3 weeks of food. When the farmers and ranchers start using their food to feed people - the town will implode quickly
> 
> *Lets talk about the food requirements for 500 people and the big question make it SUSTAINABLE.... as I mentioned before you would need over 300 cows to sustain meat*
> 
> I am guessing the vast majority of your current food supply comes from outside the area


Probably no more than the rest of America has. Remember there are criminals and there are criminals. We've only had one murder in the entire county (half the size of Rhode Island) in the six years that we've lived here.

As for locking off the area - dropping five bridges or establishing five checkpoints would just about isolate the entire county.

As for food production, my county produced - just soy beans - over 3000 pounds per resident in 2012. In addition they also harvested - just winter wheat - over 1600 pounds per resident in 2102.

These are from state records. So far from being a food desert, we may end up being a food exporter. Again another reason to work towards a sustainable community infrastructure.

I know that you will next harp on the emp horse hockey or the break down in the banking structure or some other very unlikely event, but even if food production is reduced by 90 percent our county residents will not fare too badly.

And no I'm not sending you the links.


----------



## Swedishsocialist

Real Old Man said:


> Probably no more than the rest of America has. Remember there are criminals and there are criminals. We've only had one murder in the entire county (half the size of Rhode Island) in the six years that we've lived here.
> 
> As for locking off the area - dropping five bridges or establishing five checkpoints would just about isolate the entire county.
> 
> As for food production, my county produced - just soy beans - over 3000 pounds per resident in 2012. In addition they also harvested - just winter wheat - over 1600 pounds per resident in 2102.
> 
> These are from state records. So far from being a food desert, we may end up being a food exporter. Again another reason to work towards a sustainable community infrastructure.
> 
> I know that you will next harp on the emp horse hockey or the break down in the banking structure or some other very unlikely event, but even if food production is reduced by 90 percent our county residents will not fare too badly.
> 
> And no I'm not sending you the links.


And how much would you produce without fuel?


----------



## Real Old Man

Swedishsocialist said:


> And how much would you produce without fuel?


Funny you should ask as we produce enough corn to produce about 5,000,000 gallons of ethanol.

Additionally we have a fuel here called bio diesel that is made from left over cooking oil - read oil from corn, soy etc. - so could it be produced for a fuel for tractors and other farm machinery, I'd say that would be a pretty good bet of say 90 gallons per acre of soy beans or perhaps a half million gallons if only one third of the acreage of soy beans was used to make it.

So next question


----------



## Operator6

I've read that an acre of soybean will yield 46 gal. of biofuel. Not bad at all.


----------



## Real Old Man

Operator6 said:


> I've read that an acre of soybean will yield 46 gal. of biofuel. Not bad at all.


Depending on the output per acre it can be as high as 90 gal per acre.

We also shipped to market enough cattle to give each resident about 80 pounds of meat per year. Not great, but not starvation conditions . We don't raise all that many hogs, the county to the south of us and west of us has a very large production so trade between the two (a need for lines of communication - roads and rails ) would be an option


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> Probably no more than the rest of America has. Remember there are criminals and there are criminals. We've only had one murder in the entire county (half the size of Rhode Island) in the six years that we've lived here.
> 
> As for locking off the area - dropping five bridges or establishing five checkpoints would just about isolate the entire county.
> 
> As for food production, my county produced - just soy beans - over 3000 pounds per resident in 2012. In addition they also harvested - just winter wheat - over 1600 pounds per resident in 2102.
> 
> These are from state records. So far from being a food desert, we may end up being a food exporter. Again another reason to work towards a sustainable community infrastructure.
> 
> I know that you will next harp on the emp horse hockey or the break down in the banking structure or some other very unlikely event, but even if food production is reduced by 90 percent our county residents will not fare too badly.
> 
> And no I'm not sending you the links.


1st with bridges down there goes your food export

you mentioned 2 cattle operations each with 40 head.... how long will that last 500 people
also a 40 head goat ranch...

wheat and soy beans are great... but scurvy is caused by a lack of fruits. Rickets

feeding each person 3 pounds of meat per week will require 78,000 lbs of meat (yearly) - that would require 178 cows...without even worrying about sustaining cattle production.. for that you would need 10 times the amount you currently have.

of course you can fill in with chicken and goat..but you need to have enough to sustain and breed

having a river next to you is nice until the folks upstream start tossing garbage and CRAP into it

who is making parts for your tractors?

5 check points would require at least 3 shifts of guards minimum of 3 people per location, plus lookout(s) for river ingress areas... that would require at least 60 people - 20 on guard, 20 sleeping, 20 resting or taking care of weapons and chow

I think we have discussed this enough - I believe that larger groups are going to be targets for government raids and worse bad guy raids... there will be internal strife and the problems of food distribution (Fairly sharing) and sustainability will be its down fall.

unless everybody is preparing TODAY and on board and ready to get rid of the bad actors and lazy wife beaters and ok to work hard and sacrifice...

Are you burning your trash, tossing it in the river, or burying it

Sewage?

Water and water filtration

I hope it never happens.. but when it does. I will want to be around family and friends and not around people I do not know that well...


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> Depending on the output per acre it can be as high as 90 gal per acre.
> 
> We also shipped to market enough cattle to give each resident about 80 pounds of meat per year. Not great, but not starvation conditions . We don't raise all that many hogs, the county to the south of us and west of us has a very large production so trade between the two (a need for lines of communication - roads and rails ) would be an option


80 lbs of meat per year??? today the average america eats 270.7 lbs.

but using your number (which I think is way way way low) 80 lbs a year would require 89 cows - and that is about what you have now... no reproduction


----------



## Operator6

Real Old Man said:


> Depending on the output per acre it can be as high as 90 gal per acre.
> 
> We also shipped to market enough cattle to give each resident about 80 pounds of meat per year. Not great, but not starvation conditions . We don't raise all that many hogs, the county to the south of us and west of us has a very large production so trade between the two (a need for lines of communication - roads and rails ) would be an option


I agree, it can be 90+ per acre as you say. Do you have wild hog in your area ? If you let the domesticated pig go and become feral, they can be a good source of protein.

I'm sure you keep chickens, so you get the meat and the eggs. I know just a few chickens and you'll have more eggs than you can eat. I have a source for yard eggs and he always has PILES of eggs to give away.


----------



## Real Old Man

Maine-Marine said:


> 1st with bridges down there goes your food export
> 
> 5 check points would require at least 3 shifts of guards minimum of 3 people per location, plus lookout(s) for river ingress areas... that would require at least 60 people - 20 on guard, 20 sleeping, 20 resting or taking care of weapons and chow
> 
> I think we have discussed this enough - I believe that larger groups are going to be targets for government raids and worse bad guy raids... there will be internal strife and the problems of food distribution (Fairly sharing) and sustainability will be its down fall.
> 
> I hope it never happens.. but when it does. I will want to be around family and friends and not around people I do not know that well...


To answer your first question (yes I"ve cut out some of your post) your force equals the size of our sheriff's department.

As for the - I think we've talked about this enough. Funny you started this thread to get folks to talk about large vs small groups and now that someone has shown a fairly well thought out plan that covers something that doesn't promote your vision of how folks ought to act after a SHTF event you want to leave. Fine we'll just keep this going without you.


----------



## NotTooProudToHide

Maine-Marine said:


> 80 lbs of meat per year??? today the average america eats 270.7 lbs.
> 
> but using your number (which I think is way way way low) 80 lbs a year would require 89 cows - and that is about what you have now... no reproduction


Beef and pork are going to become premium products, your average meet consumption is going to be made up of poultry, fish, or small game like rabbits. It wouldn't take much to build some rabbit hutches and start breeding them. In fact thats what the Brits did when protein was short in ww2.


----------



## Real Old Man

Operator6 said:


> I agree, it can be 90+ per acre as you say. Do you have wild hog in your area ? If you let the domesticated pig go and become feral, they can be a good source of protein.
> 
> I'm sure you keep chickens, so you get the meat and the eggs. I know just a few chickens and you'll have more eggs than you can eat. I have a source for yard eggs and he always has PILES of eggs to give away.


Actually the county doesn't raise many hogs, ones south and west of us (both on the rail lines) have large hog populations.

We don't raise chickens - I still work full time and they can take some work. Plus we have a couple of foxes and rackoons and I'd rather they not profit from our labor.

Do have a very large number of oak trees that we do next to nothing with


----------



## ND_ponyexpress_

Maine-Marine said:


> What do you think the chances are that somebody could find this location by accident?
> View attachment 19841
> 
> What do you think the chances are that somebody by random selection would happen to make the turns needed to get from a main road to this location
> Do you think somebody could smell food that far away and figure direction?
> 
> SHTF there will be LOTS of back roads place that never see a raider or a marauder or a stranger
> 
> I doubt however that larger communities will be unscathed. It is hard to block off entrance to a large area without a massive security force and lots of patrols - and patrols take away form planting and other things.
> 
> Even the military knows that for every 1 fighter you need several support folks


first time you light a fire for heat or to cook your secret location is compromised.. I am not saying one group of 500 is the best thing... I think 10-15 people on a farm (squad) and 2-3 farms in your AO (platoon) and a surrounding area of squads/platoons and you have a 500 member group (company)... are there worthless soldiers and food problems? probably but each squad is on it's own and can draw from platoons and the company when it needs to!


----------



## NotTooProudToHide

I'm also thinking that the solution would be to maintain you own small individual group or clan within a large community. My smaller group would be made of of family members by blood and marriage and a select number of close friends. Together we could work within the large group to do what was necessary for our small group to survive while contributing and enjoying the added protection of a large group. If things broke down we still have our own small individual group to fall back on.


----------



## Real Old Man

NotTooProudToHide said:


> Beef and pork are going to become premium products, your average meet consumption is going to be made up of poultry, fish, or small game like rabbits. It wouldn't take much to build some rabbit hutches and start breeding them. In fact thats what the Brits did when protein was short in ww2.


For us it could be two families of geese that breed in our pond every year.

This year we had over 15 young adult geese (hadn't yet mated yet) that we could have harvested and not touched the two new families that were hatched this year.

Our neighbor has a deer harvesting program that culls out those pests that eat into his commercial gardens


----------



## Real Old Man

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> first time you light a fire for heat or to cook your secret location is compromised.. I am not saying one group of 500 is the best thing... I think 10-15 people on a farm (squad) and 2-3 farms in your AO (platoon) and a surrounding area of squads/platoons and you have a 500 member group (company)... are there worthless soldiers and food problems? probably but each squad is on it's own and can draw from platoons and the company when it needs to!


Very good analogy ND. Kind of like what we have here


----------



## NotTooProudToHide

Real Old Man said:


> For us it could be two families of geese that breed in our pond every year.
> 
> This year we had over 15 young adult geese (hadn't yet mated yet) that we could have harvested and not touched the two new families that were hatched this year.
> 
> Our neighbor has a deer harvesting program that culls out those pests that eat into his commercial gardens


I live in the middle of a city that has around 60k people. Our front/back yard seems to be crawling with rabbits. All you would have to do is build hutches with 2x4's plywood, and chicken wire then use a live trap to round up a few breeding pairs and whalaa instant food. We also raised rabbits when I was a kid, so long as you have grass and water they thrive.

Come to think of it they just passed a city ordinance which allows for citizens to raise chickens in their back yards.


----------



## Real Old Man

Maine-Marine said:


> 80 lbs of meat per year??? today the average america eats 270.7 lbs.
> 
> but using your number (which I think is way way way low) 80 lbs a year would require 89 cows - and that is about what you have now... no reproduction


Actually that's about one half the recommended amount of protein a 45 YOA male 5' 10 170 LBs with very active needs. With the amount of soybeans the balance is easily made up.

https://fnic.nal.usda.gov/fnic/interactiveDRI/dri_results.php

Come on Skippy you can do better than that


----------



## Real Old Man

NotTooProudToHide said:


> I live in the middle of a city that has around 60k people. Our front/back yard seems to be crawling with rabbits. All you would have to do is build hutches with 2x4's plywood, and chicken wire then use a live trap to round up a few breeding pairs and whalaa instant food. We also raised rabbits when I was a kid, so long as you have grass and water they thrive.
> 
> Come to think of it they just passed a city ordinance which allows for citizens to raise chickens in their back yards.


And bunnys are a lot cuter than chickens. Much less for the neighbors to whine and gripe about


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> To answer your first question (yes I"ve cut out some of your post) your force equals the size of our sheriff's department.
> 
> As for the - I think we've talked about this enough. Funny you started this thread to get folks to talk about large vs small groups and now that someone has shown a fairly well thought out plan that covers something that doesn't promote your vision of how folks ought to act after a SHTF event you want to leave. Fine we'll just keep this going without you.


I should have said.."I have discussed this enough" I am fairly confident that your community will last only slightly longer then a bad fart in a movie theater before it is gone. Too many problems and too hard to get 500 people all on the same page to build a society.

If things ever get really bad and you end up in 500 person community situation - think of me when the farmers refuse to give out THEIR food to lazy welfare folks and the sheriffs department starts forcing people to surrender their firearms and collecting food for* redistribution*


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> Actually that's about one half the recommended amount of protein a 45 YOA male 5' 10 170 LBs with very active needs. With the amount of soybeans the balance is easily made up.
> 
> https://fnic.nal.usda.gov/fnic/interactiveDRI/dri_results.php


lol - I wish I could live in your world... it must be like a perfect little place like NICEVILLE.. all the men are perfectly fit, all the women blonde and blue eye..and all the cows magically grow from soy beans that are planted in the rich farm land.

are any of your pepe going to put in a real days work and require extra calories.

and you SKIPPED answering my other questions about garbage and sewage and water

It seems you have a answer for everything but you have not talked to the whole town have you!!! how many of them are going to hop on board the community train?


----------



## Coastie dad

I think some people are waxing their little weasels to a high gloss. 

My dogs better than your dog....my dad's bigger than yours....
Take a simple discussion and turn it into a contest.....


----------



## Real Old Man

Thanks Coastie. Made me chuckle.

Hope everything is good with you and yours


----------



## Real Old Man

Maine-Marine said:


> lol - I wish I could live in your world... it must be like a perfect little place like NICEVILLE.. all the men are perfectly fit, all the women blonde and blue eye..and all the cows magically grow from soy beans that are planted in the rich farm land.
> 
> are any of your pepe going to put in a real days work and require extra calories.
> 
> and you SKIPPED answering my other questions about garbage and sewage and water
> 
> It seems you have a answer for everything but you have not talked to the whole town have you!!! how many of them are going to hop on board the community train?


What he really wants to say

I'm not going to stop until you agree that you are wrong and I - M&M are truely the only one that speaks the truth


----------



## Maine-Marine

Coastie dad said:


> I think some people are waxing their little weasels to a high gloss.
> 
> My dogs better than your dog....my dad's bigger than yours....
> Take a simple discussion and turn it into a contest.....


----------



## M118LR

Maine-Marine said:


> First - the above is NOT true.. Wolves have a pack during good and bad times
> 
> second - bad times would be when FOOD is scarce....


"Life History and Reproduction
Wolves live in packs. Most packs have four to nine members, but the size can range from as few as two wolves to as many as 15. Occasionally, a pack can increase to 30 members until some individuals break off to find new territory and form their own pack."
You can read the rest at: https://www.nwf.org/Wildlife/Wildlife-Library/Mammals/Gray-Wolf.aspx

Once food sources become more plentiful subservient adult's leave the pack to form their own. (2-3 years of age)

Circumstances of the disaster shall determine the optimal group size. Plan's are great until you get hit in the mouth! What happens when an unfriendly element decides to foul your open water sources by sniping the cattle and holding the parameter until the rotting corpses foul the water? All the best laid plans have faults, mobility and adaptability always allow for the fastest change. Battlefields are constantly evolving, the most adaptable usually are victorious.


----------



## SOCOM42

Slippy said:


> First thing I'd do is get some shipping containers and some slaves to empty the crap buckets...:vs_smirk:


Christ Slippy, they should have gotten rid of them in the first place, now you want to start it all over again? SHAME!


----------



## Maine-Marine

Real Old Man said:


> What he really wants to say
> 
> I'm not going to stop until you agree that you are wrong and I - M&M are truely the only one that speaks the truth


I am sorry.


----------



## SOCOM42

There are twelve men in our group, each one has a skill or more to contribute.

Will not enlarge it, they all know it, no uncle, second cousin, kids boyfriend, none.

It will stay that way for a long time, condition will determine other.

Water? I don't worry about it or contamination, have a well to use if needed, and several methods of purification.

Have a river 25-50 yard in back of shop, method of pumping manual and gas if needed.

Hand pump is two man, 3/4 of a gallon each stroke both ways, double acting cylinder.

Don't worry about suction, pump is only 4 feet higher than river.

Twelve is sufficient for watches and other security details.


----------



## Real Old Man

SOCOM42 said:


> There are twelve men in our group, each one has a skill or more to contribute.
> 
> Will not enlarge it, they all know it, no uncle, second cousin, kids boyfriend, none.
> 
> It will stay that way for a long time, condition will determine other.
> 
> Water? I don't worry about it or contamination, have a well to use if needed, and several methods of purification.
> 
> Have a river 25-50 yard in back of shop, method of pumping manual and gas if needed.
> 
> Hand pump is two man, 3/4 of a gallon each stroke both ways, double acting cylinder.
> 
> Don't worry about suction, pump is only 4 feet higher than river.
> 
> Twelve is sufficient for watches and other security details.


Sounds like an old SF A Team from Fort Devans MA


----------



## SOCOM42

Real Old Man said:


> Sounds like an old SF A Team from Fort Devans MA


You mean 10SFG(airborne), Ft. Devens Ma?


----------



## Real Old Man

You got it.

We used to have a detachment here in VA once upon a time


----------



## M118LR

SOCOM42 said:


> There are twelve men in our group, each one has a skill or more to contribute.
> 
> Will not enlarge it, they all know it, no uncle, second cousin, kids boyfriend, none.
> 
> It will stay that way for a long time, condition will determine other.
> 
> Water? I don't worry about it or contamination, have a well to use if needed, and several methods of purification.
> 
> Have a river 25-50 yard in back of shop, method of pumping manual and gas if needed.
> 
> Hand pump is two man, 3/4 of a gallon each stroke both ways, double acting cylinder.
> 
> Don't worry about suction, pump is only 4 feet higher than river.
> 
> Twelve is sufficient for watches and other security details.


That's all good till the sinkhole swallows it up. Now how many of the 12 Men are responsible for other members of thier families? It's not about what you can do for yourself, it's all about what you do for others that determines your pecking order on the role of humanity!


----------



## SOCOM42

M118LR said:


> That's all good till the sinkhole swallows it up. Now how many of the 12 Men are responsible for other members of thier families? It's not about what you can do for yourself, it's all about what you do for others that determines your pecking order on the role of humanity!


I did not bother to list families, they all have them and they will be here.

This was the first sentence in my post, it does say they all have a skill or more.

-----There are twelve men in our group, each one has a skill or more to contribute.-----

No one is worried about pecking order as you put it, further we are all friends and or related.

Should we make up a list of intentions and operation proposals and send it to you for approval.

Perhaps we should all wait for you to come across the lake in your Zodiac with quiet Evinrude's with you rebreather strapped on to become our supreme leader,

or would you just be walking over on top of the water..

Perhaps with the way things are according to you we are incapable of everything, we should all give up and die, after all we are not seagoing crabs.

There are a lot of other people around here with military backgrounds as good as if not better than your purported ones.

Just what the hell are you relating to with the sinkhole?


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## ND_ponyexpress_

I plan to put my kids to work pullin weeds....


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## M118LR

SOCOM42 said:


> I did not bother to list families, they all have them and they will be here.
> 
> This was the first sentence in my post, it does say they all have a skill or more.
> 
> -----There are twelve men in our group, each one has a skill or more to contribute.-----
> 
> No one is worried about pecking order as you put it, further we are all friends and or related.
> 
> Should we make up a list of intentions and operation proposals and send it to you for approval.
> 
> Perhaps we should all wait for you to come across the lake in your Zodiac with quiet Evinrude's with you rebreather strapped on to become our supreme leader,
> 
> or would you just be walking over on top of the water..
> 
> Perhaps with the way things are according to you we are incapable of everything, we should all give up and die, after all we are not seagoing crabs.
> 
> There are a lot of other people around here with military backgrounds as good as if not better than your purported ones.
> 
> Just what the hell are you relating to with the sinkhole?


Men with families have a duty far beyond anything we shall correspond about SOCOM42. 
The fact that I came upon Y'all's group from an unknown source gave me credit that you didn't want to own up to. 
All the land that you cherished and improved just sank 200 feet below ground, that's a Florida Sink Hole. 
I am accustomed to taking charge of all the folks with a military background, just part of my NAVY ELITIST Background. I shall do my best to bring you and all yours Home from the fray. I shall leave it up to the history of me and my kind for you to put all of the folks you care for in my custody. Trust me with your money and your live. Your Children not your wife, for I shall continue the linage you attempted to sire, after they lost you to a higher cause.


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## 7052

Real Old Man said:


> One thing you may want to consider, would you accept an outsider you know nothing about into your group/community after a SHTF event? Probably not, you'd find them in one of your groups to exclude.
> 
> The time to join that community or group is well before an event occurs not after


Actually, my wife and I have discussed this at length. Where we live we don't expect there to be too awful many people tha survive more than a year. There's a heavy government-dependency mindset around here and people in these parts tend to think preppers are insane. So I have a hunch that if it's a total SHTF event, most will be dead by the end of year one.

We have discussed at length the fact that to survive long-term, society will need to start to reform. As such, any that survive (and obviously we hope to be in that group) will need to start banding together. First in smaller groups, then eventual reforming a community. So will we accept stranger in, we'd like to think so. However, it would have to be a slow, careful process. People carefully screened, and added slowly and watched like a hawk, etc. I don't know the entire system we'd use since we're not in that situation, and like one of my former-military friends likes to say "plans are great, but expect to adapt, improvise, and overcome when they turn to shit in the real world". lol

So yes, hopefully, at some point down the road we would re-form a community for long-term existence. But to start, and for initial survival, I stand by my statements that a smaller group is better.


----------



## 7052

NotTooProudToHide said:


> Come to think of it they just passed a city ordinance which allows for citizens to raise chickens in their back yards.


*This* makes me jealous! We have been trying to get that here. Some of the surrounding cities have agreed, but mine steadfastly refuses! We want chickens very badly!

/sigh


----------



## 7052

SOCOM42 said:


> There are twelve men in our group, each one has a skill or more to contribute.
> 
> Will not enlarge it, they all know it, no uncle, second cousin, kids boyfriend, none.
> 
> It will stay that way for a long time, condition will determine other.
> 
> Water? I don't worry about it or contamination, have a well to use if needed, and several methods of purification.
> 
> Have a river 25-50 yard in back of shop, method of pumping manual and gas if needed.
> 
> Hand pump is two man, 3/4 of a gallon each stroke both ways, double acting cylinder.
> 
> Don't worry about suction, pump is only 4 feet higher than river.
> 
> Twelve is sufficient for watches and other security details.


So, I'm just wondering, since this is something I have discussed w/ my wife repeatedly. Let's say after SHTF someone with a unique or highly valuable skill (Medical Doctor, Mechanical Engineer, whatever) wanders buy looking for food, materials, etc and stumbles onto your group (let's assume it's a scouting/scavenging party of yours, safely away from your base). After questioning, you do not get the sense that this person is anything other than what he says, and that he does not pose a risk to you. You can easily...
1) Let him go safely.
2) Kill him to be safe.
3) Invite him to join your group.

No judgement on options 1 and 2. We all know (or should know) that at times, hard choices will need to be made that are not legal or socially acceptable now. The decisions you make will be based on what's right for YOUR group, at that specific moment. So let's look at #3.

Are you saying that no matter what, you will not allow another person in and are hard-capped at 12? Or was your statement more a "general guideline" to the group members to "not show up w/ extra folk and expect them to be included"? I'm guessing the latter? If not, can you please explain why you wouldn't allow someone "new" in? Is is just security? Food availability? Something else?


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## Maine-Marine

Egyas said:


> But to start, and for initial survival, I stand by my statements that a smaller group is better.


Now you have done it...


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## Operator6

Egyas said:


> *This* makes me jealous! We have been trying to get that here. Some of the surrounding cities have agreed, but mine steadfastly refuses! We want chickens very badly!
> 
> /sigh


We can have chickens but no roosters in the city.


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## SOCOM42

Egyas,

At this point the number is hard until some sort of an event happens, now mostly due to OPSEC.

Food will always be a factor, regardless of size, everyone has a large quantity to bring, there are plans to grow our own.

I worry more about big brother than street folks snooping.

All comm between us is by word of mouth, nothing electronic.

My brother is an MD and his wife a OR nurse, they are part of the team.

Dependent upon many things, to include, event, intel gathered by intruder, garnered info from him-her, would determine the status of that person.

As stated, we are friends of 20+ years, all ex military or related. We do not trust newcomers, nor are they allowed to know of our group.

On the outside edge, IF a member can personally vouch for a person after an event, then there may be consideration.

We feel that the group size is big enough to handle what is needed along with our families supporting.

One member is a retired SEAL team commander, a navy Captain.

Two others ex SF, all but my brother are or are retired LEO's.

We lost one, a navy intel officer, retired full commander. Went into hospital for minor surgery, contracted pneumonia, died four days later.

There are several that are on that outside edge that if we need, they can be enlightened to the groups existence.

If we were to "button up", so to speak, no one would know who we are as a group, or be able to observe as we consolidate.

The group has evolved over the years into its present form.

A bunch of us were in dept. training one day and the what if's came out, that was right after 9-11, that is how it started, in a rush to get assault rifles 

for the dept.

We will keep away from hand held's unless in a tactical op, I found out MOTO and the others have given the keys to all their encryption programs to the feds.

There is no practice fire and maneuver done or dressing in cammo, we have all been through that for real, no need to attract observers or satellite's.

When we meet, it is over dinner or such and we discuss needed things and sound out on opinions and current events.


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## Targetshooter

I am in a very small group of 6 people , " two medical , one lawyer , and three jack of all trades ".


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## 7052

SOCOM42 said:


> Egyas,
> 
> At this point the number is hard until some sort of an event happens, now mostly due to OPSEC.
> 
> Food will always be a factor, regardless of size, everyone has a large quantity to bring, there are plans to grow our own.
> 
> I worry more about big brother than street folks snooping.
> 
> All comm between us is by word of mouth, nothing electronic.
> 
> My brother is an MD and his wife a OR nurse, they are part of the team.
> 
> Dependent upon many things, to include, event, intel gathered by intruder, garnered info from him-her, would determine the status of that person.
> 
> As stated, we are friends of 20+ years, all ex military or related. We do not trust newcomers, nor are they allowed to know of our group.
> 
> On the outside edge, IF a member can personally vouch for a person after an event, then there may be consideration.
> 
> We feel that the group size is big enough to handle what is needed along with our families supporting.
> 
> One member is a retired SEAL team commander, a navy Captain.
> 
> Two others ex SF, all but my brother are or are retired LEO's.
> 
> We lost one, a navy intel officer, retired full commander. Went into hospital for minor surgery, contracted pneumonia, died four days later.
> 
> There are several that are on that outside edge that if we need, they can be enlightened to the groups existence.
> 
> If we were to "button up", so to speak, no one would know who we are as a group, or be able to observe as we consolidate.
> 
> The group has evolved over the years into its present form.
> 
> A bunch of us were in dept. training one day and the what if's came out, that was right after 9-11, that is how it started, in a rush to get assault rifles
> 
> for the dept.
> 
> We will keep away from hand held's unless in a tactical op, I found out MOTO and the others have given the keys to all their encryption programs to the feds.
> 
> There is no practice fire and maneuver done or dressing in cammo, we have all been through that for real, no need to attract observers or satellite's.
> 
> When we meet, it is over dinner or such and we discuss needed things and sound out on opinions and current events.


Given what you laid out here, I can see why you would be extremely hesitant to include others outside the present group. To say I am venous of that set-up would be an understatement. Obviously I'm not military or ex-military, and the group I am in has shrunk from 3 families to 2 (1 member was forced to re-locate way down south because of work (it was a non-voluntary, move or find a new job @ your present Sr. Management level salary (yea, right!) kind of thing). While I have a few friends that I *could* bring in after if needed, I have no real faith in them at this point. When I try to subtly bring up the subject to "sound them out", they never take the bait, and looking at their lives I can tell they are not "in the life" as it were. finding people in this area has been an exercise in futility and aggravation.

So, more power to you!


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## NotTooProudToHide

Operator6 said:


> We can have chickens but no roosters in the city.


Thats what they're doing here.


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## NotTooProudToHide

SOCOM42 said:


> Egyas,
> 
> At this point the number is hard until some sort of an event happens, now mostly due to OPSEC.
> 
> Food will always be a factor, regardless of size, everyone has a large quantity to bring, there are plans to grow our own.
> 
> I worry more about big brother than street folks snooping.
> 
> All comm between us is by word of mouth, nothing electronic.
> 
> My brother is an MD and his wife a OR nurse, they are part of the team.
> 
> Dependent upon many things, to include, event, intel gathered by intruder, garnered info from him-her, would determine the status of that person.
> 
> As stated, we are friends of 20+ years, all ex military or related. We do not trust newcomers, nor are they allowed to know of our group.
> 
> On the outside edge, IF a member can personally vouch for a person after an event, then there may be consideration.
> 
> We feel that the group size is big enough to handle what is needed along with our families supporting.
> 
> One member is a retired SEAL team commander, a navy Captain.
> 
> Two others ex SF, all but my brother are or are retired LEO's.
> 
> We lost one, a navy intel officer, retired full commander. Went into hospital for minor surgery, contracted pneumonia, died four days later.
> 
> There are several that are on that outside edge that if we need, they can be enlightened to the groups existence.
> 
> If we were to "button up", so to speak, no one would know who we are as a group, or be able to observe as we consolidate.
> 
> The group has evolved over the years into its present form.
> 
> A bunch of us were in dept. training one day and the what if's came out, that was right after 9-11, that is how it started, in a rush to get assault rifles
> 
> for the dept.
> 
> We will keep away from hand held's unless in a tactical op, I found out MOTO and the others have given the keys to all their encryption programs to the feds.
> 
> There is no practice fire and maneuver done or dressing in cammo, we have all been through that for real, no need to attract observers or satellite's.
> 
> When we meet, it is over dinner or such and we discuss needed things and sound out on opinions and current events.


You've put a lot of thought into this and if what you say is true then you've got a good group.


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## SOCOM42

NotTooProudToHide said:


> You've put a lot of thought into this and if what you say is true then you've got a good group.


It has to be, our lives will depend upon it being so.


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## Annie

A community of 500 that works well together is probably gonna be a cult. I just don't see it happening in anyway that I'd want in on that. A group of about 25 is the best.


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## Operator6

Annie said:


> A community of 500 that works well together is probably gonna be a cult. I just don't see it happening in anyway that I'd want in on that. A group of about 25 is the best.


Interesting number of 25 you picked. In 1985 David Koresh and around 25 followers set up camp in Palestine,Tx.


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## Annie

Wasn't that the Branch Davidians? They were in Waco, right? Yeah but the number was of people there was much higher than that when things went south. Anyway, where do you find a group of 500 preppers these days? 

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## A Watchman

Annie said:


> Wasn't that the Branch Davidians? They were in Waco, right? Yeah but the number was of people there was much higher than that when things went south. Anyway, where do you find a group of 500 preppers these days?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh


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## Operator6

Annie said:


> Wasn't that the Branch Davidians? They were in Waco, right? Yeah but the number was of people there was much higher than that when things went south. Anyway, where do you find a group of 500 preppers these days?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


Mr Koresh started out with around 25 followers. Eventually he ended up in Waco.

Depends on your definition of prepper. The Amish have large communities. Small towns are often very close and helpful to one another.


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## jim-henscheli

I'm basically surrounded by window lickers, so I lie to myself with optimism, but I honestly do not think that a major event such as an solar flare would be that bad. Let's stick with Solar flare; all major grids down, I.E. Food supply, industry, sewerage/water, most transportation. I think that, we would have an UGLY year, but ultimately we would basically return to the 1930s or so; basic electrical up again soon, basic commo, local mechanized agriculture would survive. It would suck, and suck hard for a bit, especially with the violence that would come about. But u think for most, 1 year of food/supplies/everything needful, and the tools of procurement, they would survive.


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## Annie

If there was some bad epidemic like eboli I sure wouldn't want to be in a group that big. 

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## Annie

Operator6 said:


> Mr Koresh started out with around 25 followers. Eventually he ended up in Waco.
> 
> Depends on your definition of prepper. The Amish have large communities. Small towns are often very close and helpful to one another.


The Amish have no weapons. Hey do you think they're gonna hire some English to be their gun men? There used to be a show about the Amish Mafia. Prolly all fake, but I wonder what they'd do in an shtf situation. Just saying...

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## Operator6

Annie said:


> The Amish have no weapons. Hey do you think they're gonna hire some English to be their gun men? There used to be a show about the Amish Mafia. Prolly all fake, but I wonder what they'd do in an shtf situation. Just saying...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


The Amish do have weapons.


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## A Watchman

Operator6 said:


> Mr Koresh started out with around 25 followers. Eventually he ended up in Waco.
> 
> Depends on your definition of prepper. The Amish have large communities. Small towns are often very close and helpful to one another.


He actually started in Waco in 81/82 with the Branch Davidians, then left with the 25 followers to start anew in East Texas. After a leadership opening came about he rejoined the Davidians in Waco someone in 85. David Koresh is buried in Tyler Texas, located in NE Texas.

http://www.biography.com/people/david-koresh-9368416#branch-davidians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh


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## A Watchman

^^^^^^ Remember Janet Reno and the Clintons?


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## Operator6

A Watchman said:


> He actually started in Waco in 81/82 with the Branch Davidians, then left with the 25 followers to start anew in East Texas. After a leadership opening came about he rejoined the Davidians in Waco someone in 85. David Koresh is buried in Tyler Texas, located in NE Texas.
> 
> http://www.biography.com/people/david-koresh-9368416#branch-davidians
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh


Right, he was in Waco, left and went to Palestine then ended up back in Waco.


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## Annie

Operator6 said:


> The Amish do have weapons.


News to me.

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## Slippy

Annie said:


> News to me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


(Slippy seems to remember a good friend of his telling him she didn't just fall off the turnip truck...:tango_face_smile

Yes, Many Amish have been long time avid hunters. I'm pretty sure their "doctrine" of belief is not to use firearms to harm each other but people sin, right?
States that require photo ID for firearm purchases are probably an obstacle to the Amish buying new firearms from an FFL but I've seen Amish/Mennonites at gun shows. And as most of us know, a hand me down 30-30 has harvested many deer...


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## Annie

I suppose if anyone could pull off a group that big it'd be military people. 

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## Annie

Slippy said:


> (Slippy seems to remember a good friend of his telling him she didn't just fall off the turnip truck...:tango_face_smile


Runs off to her room crying and slams the door....

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## Annie

Slippy said:


> Yes, Many Amish have been long time avid hunters. I'm pretty sure their "doctrine" of belief is not to use firearms to harm each other but people sin, right?
> States that require photo ID for firearm purchases are probably an obstacle to the Amish buying new firearms from an FFL but I've seen Amish/Mennonites at gun shows. And as most of us know, a hand me down 30-30 has harvested many deer...


Would the Amish would use their guns in a crisis situation to protect their families? If they do, but won't defend our country as soldiers in a time of crisis, then I think they're just squatters, not real citizens.


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## Slippy

Annie said:


> Would the Amish would use their guns in a crisis situation to protect their families? If they do, but won't defend our country as soldiers in a time of crisis, then I think they're just squatters, not real citizens.


I don't know if I can agree with that. But here's my thought process;

There are only about 300,000 Amish in the US, what is that 1/10 of 1%?

Yet there are 46 million people on food stamps. We know that there are millions of citizens whose families have been on welfare (Food, Housing, Healthcare) for generations. These people have not contributed one dime to the tax revenues in decades. To my knowledge the Amish don't take welfare of any kind. To my knowledge, the Amish pay income tax. So they are not squatters, they are citizens. The squatters are the illegals and the people who are scamming our generously stupid welfare system.

Just based on this, I cannot agree with your thought on the Amish not being real citizens just because they take a stance of pacifism. I'd rather argue that the US has millions on non citizens and millions of citizens taking tax dollars and not contributing.


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## Annie

Slippy said:


> I don't know if I can agree with that. But here's my thought process;
> 
> There are only about 300,000 Amish in the US, what is that 1/10 of 1%?
> 
> Yet there are 46 million people on food stamps. We know that there are millions of citizens whose families have been on welfare (Food, Housing, Healthcare) for generations. These people have not contributed one dime to the tax revenues in decades. To my knowledge the Amish don't take welfare of any kind. To my knowledge, the Amish pay income tax. So they are not squatters, they are citizens. The squatters are the illegals and the people who are scamming our generously stupid welfare system.
> 
> Just based on this, I cannot agree with your thought on the Amish not being real citizens just because they take a stance of pacifism. I'd rather argue that the US has millions on non citizens and millions of citizens taking tax dollars and not contributing.


Don't get me wrong, because I think there's much to admire about the Amish. But if ( if ) they'd use a gun to defend their families, they ought to do the same for their country.

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## Slippy

Annie said:


> Don't get me wrong, because I think there's much to admire about the Amish. But if ( if ) they'd use a gun to defend their families, they ought to do the same for their country.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


Annie,

Help me understand your stance, I promise I'm not being argumentative, I sincerely do not understand your position.

To help, The Drafting of US Soldiers ended during the Nixon Administration sometime around 1973 (ish). Since then we have a totally Volunteer Military. My first question, Are the Amish required to register for Selective Service when they turn 18 as I did?

However, I was too young to be drafted prior to the 1973 dissolution of the Draft, AND I did not volunteer for Military Service. Additionally, I have never used a firearm to defend my Country. Do you consider me to be in the same category as the Amish?

That's where my confusion lies. Not meaning to put you on the spot, just trying to understand your position.
Thanks


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## Operator6

Annie said:


> Don't get me wrong, because I think there's much to admire about the Amish. But if ( if ) they'd use a gun to defend their families, they ought to do the same for their country.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


In the context of this thread, it doesn't matter if the Amish will fight for this country or not. They are definitely a large group that would do well IMO if SHTF.


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## Annie

Sorry for derailing the thread. Back to the topic, they'll do well if they use self defense. 

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## 8301

I wouldn't want to be a member of a large group but I would be fine with being loosly bound to other small groups through common defensive and trade goals.


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## Slippy

Annie said:


> Sorry for derailing the thread. Back to the topic, they'll do well if they use self defense.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


If I were a Leader in the Amish community, I would hire some Warriors to run defense. Yes, its a risk but with proper screening and the promise of food, water, shelter etc, it may turn out well for both parties.


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## Maine-Marine

Slippy said:


> If I were a Leader in the Amish community, I would hire some Warriors to run defense. Yes, its a risk but with proper screening and the promise of food, water, shelter etc, it may turn out well for both parties.


I think the amish will be well protected. around here they hire people to drive them to construction sites, they operate stores, they have lots of ENGLISH friends. They are a source for food that is renewable and the local folks will protect that


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## Operator6

Maine-Marine said:


> I think the amish will be well protected. around here they hire people to drive them to construction sites, they operate stores, they have lots of ENGLISH friends. They are a source for food that is renewable and the local folks will protect that


I agree with you so I asked my wife to kick me in the nuts to make sure I'm still alive. How's the weather up there ? It's raining here and in the 80's.....was in the mid 90's yesterday.


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## Maine-Marine

Amish World War 2

Elizabeth Byler Younts Explains the Amish's Role in World War II - Amish Wisdom


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## Maine-Marine

Operator6 said:


> I agree with you so I asked my wife to kick me in the nuts to make sure I'm still alive. How's the weather up there ? It's raining here and in the 80's.....was in the mid 90's yesterday.


70's here and very nice...if your wife was not willing to kick said package, I would be willing to offer my boot


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## Kevin

Tennessee said:


> First off 500 people is a community or even a small town. When I think of a group of people I thinking under 25 people but that's just me. And if I had a choice of going it alone or belong to a group I would chose the group.
> 
> But then again it really depends on the perimeters. What are the resources in the area? 500 people on 2 acres is too much but 500 on 1000000 maybe a good fit.
> 
> It's hard to answer you without you quantify or qualify you statement. Just saying large group vs a small group then assigning them arbitrary numbers isn't enough information for me to give you an intelligent answer.
> 
> It obvious that large groups of people work can work together, just look at are large cities and towns. But there must be resources, even for small groups to work.


For example a large group could work well if you had smaller sub-communities or sub-groups with designated sub-group leaders and each group agrees that they are all better off if they work to help and protect one another. It's just like how an army is made up of squads and platoons or any effective organization is made up of smaller teams and then larger groups. Survive together or die alone is more or less the reality. Prep for yourself first though. Because if you can't keep yourself alive how are you going to help others? Kind of like the oxygen mask on airplanes. Save yourself so you can save others and in turn they will be able to help you and others.


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## jimcosta

*Cutting Members*

Yesterday I had to cut my brother and Sister-In-law from our roster. I am still hurting from it. Actually he cut himself after I suggested he get serious after 18 months, plug in, attend training meetings, purchase the last of his minimum required equipment ($300), and generally give his best efforts to prepping.

He lives in a Million dollar townhouse on the beach and they make about $200,000 per year. He joined when his wife said to get the family prepared. He gave me $400 to purchase 3 months food supply for each of them (minimum food entry amount). He has done nothing else to prepare since then - no guns, no sleeping bags, no concern as to where they would sleep, etc. Now his 35 year old step daughter moved in with them until next June. If activated, that leaves the three of them with only a two month food supply, below our minimum. He does not opt to cure the defects.

I have said before that making the decision to survive a long term life threatening ordeal (lost in the swamp) is like haucking up a good luggie to spit. You have to dig down really deep inside yourself and make the deliberate decision that you will do whatever it takes to survive; anything! My kinfolk have not gotten there yet.

Our leadership met and discussed lack of sleep on members causing them to become depressed and unable to perform well in their particular jobs. We took action to mitigate this. But here my brother does not even have a place to sleep nor does he care. He then will immediately become a liability to the group.

Another couple joined us three months ago. We interviewed him. His wife is a veterinarian surgeon, both 35 years old. He is a Marine Biologist with Fish and Wildlife; no kids. They would be welcomed into anyone's group, right? Well, she does not want to hear anything about prepping from Hubby. We have not seen or heard from him since other than rumors he is secretly gathering supplies. Now we hear his in-laws have moved in with them and they cannot be approached about prepping either. I have been instructed by the leadership to inform Hubby that we will hold his application until his family is prepared to properly join the group.

The point is that all groups must be prepared to do whatever is best for the group to survive. In our case, we are terrified that upon activation unprepared people show up at the gate expecting to come in. We don't need a shoot-out at the gate nor do they. It is probably best to be honest and candid up front. If a member chooses not to give best efforts to prepping it may be best to lose that member.


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## Illini Warrior

jimcosta said:


> *Cutting Members*
> 
> Yesterday I had to cut my brother and Sister-In-law from our roster. I am still hurting from it. Actually he cut himself after I suggested he get serious after 18 months, plug in, attend training meetings, purchase the last of his minimum required equipment ($300), and generally give his best efforts to prepping.
> 
> He lives in a Million dollar townhouse on the beach and they make about $200,000 per year. He joined when his wife said to get the family prepared. He gave me $400 to purchase 3 months food supply for each of them (minimum food entry amount). He has done nothing else to prepare since then - no guns, no sleeping bags, no concern as to where they would sleep, etc. Now his 35 year old step daughter moved in with them until next June. If activated, that leaves the three of them with only a two month food supply, below our minimum. He does not opt to cure the defects.
> 
> I have said before that making the decision to survive a long term life threatening ordeal (lost in the swamp) is like haucking up a good luggie to spit. You have to dig down really deep inside yourself and make the deliberate decision that you will do whatever it takes to survive; anything! My kinfolk have not gotten there yet.
> 
> Our leadership met and discussed lack of sleep on members causing them to become depressed and unable to perform well in their particular jobs. We took action to mitigate this. But here my brother does not even have a place to sleep nor does he care. He then will immediately become a liability to the group.
> 
> Another couple joined us three months ago. We interviewed him. His wife is a veterinarian surgeon, both 35 years old. He is a Marine Biologist with Fish and Wildlife; no kids. They would be welcomed into anyone's group, right? Well, she does not want to hear anything about prepping from Hubby. We have not seen or heard from him since other than rumors he is secretly gathering supplies. Now we hear his in-laws have moved in with them and they cannot be approached about prepping either. I have been instructed by the leadership to inform Hubby that we will hold his application until his family is prepared to properly join the group.
> 
> The point is that all groups must be prepared to do whatever is best for the group to survive. In our case, we are terrified that upon activation unprepared people show up at the gate expecting to come in. We don't need a shoot-out at the gate nor do they. It is probably best to be honest and candid up front. If a member chooses not to give best efforts to prepping it may be best to lose that member.


sounds like you have 7 people showing up at the gate whether you want or need them - hopefully the F & G biologist will have acquired some gear - hopefully his wife has enough wits to gather up her medical tools & supplies - sounds like your brother's team could be totally useless ....


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## stowlin

Maine-Marine said:


> I think the amish will be well protected. around here they hire people to drive them to construction sites, they operate stores, they have lots of ENGLISH friends. They are a source for food that is renewable and the local folks will protect that


Other than food and sadly women what do the Amish have that a gang of thugs would want? Their ability to provide food will, as you say, gain them favor with communities. Government however might be another story.


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## bandamdep

First thing I'd do is get some shipping containers and some slaves to empty the crap buckets


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## Gator Monroe

Balkan Wars showed one thing ( Individuals & small groups died ,Large Groups of Well Armed People Survived ) &these were pretty close to how it could be here .


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