# Another open-carry police baiter making gun owners look bad



## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

LiveLeak.com - Police vs Jackass


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## AsteroidX (Dec 11, 2012)

Ban cell phones. There the ones causing the problems calling in guys like this.

Not too mention if the laws are similar to the laws here its illegal to talk on your cell and drive so those callers had broken the Law not the open carrier if it were in my state.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

The person filming wants to violate the police offers first amendment of free speech. What is it that an officer can't cuss?


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> LiveLeak.com - Police vs Jackass


Would you rather the U.S. be like england? He didn't break any laws. The cops need to educate those that make calls about people NOT breaking the law and cops not violating someones right to walk on the side of the road doing nothing illegal. Pure BS. No I don't hate cops. but I also don't trust them to do the right thing either, they go out of their way to harass legal citizens but sit back and watch known BG's go about their business. If that's all they have to do is chase around looking for legal citizens doing legal things, why do we need them and why are they armed like their going to war! That's an older video too.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

ekim said:


> Would you rather the U.S. be like england? He didn't break any laws. The cops need to educate those that make calls about people NOT breaking the law and cops not violating someones right to walk on the side of the road doing nothing illegal. Pure BS. No I don't hate cops. but I also don't trust them to do the right thing either, they go out of their way to harass legal citizens but sit back and watch known BG's go about their business. If that's all they have to do is chase around looking for legal citizens doing legal things, why do we need them and why are they armed like their going to war! That's an older video too.


The cop even said that all he new was that he had taken several calls about a man with a gun and when he arrived he say officers with thier guns drawn. HMMM jeez your right I can't see his side of it at all:shock:


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## AsteroidX (Dec 11, 2012)

Missouri cell phone & text messaging laws, legislation | Hands Free Info

At the time the callers were legal to call while driving. Soon that will likely not be the case.


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## BDylan (Jan 2, 2013)

Cops were wrong...and they sounded foolish because they were not even aware of how wrong they were. As soon as they ascertained the 'subject' had committed no crime the police should have been on their way. Officer Horne , in particular, is in need of some remedial training.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

The cops first needs to tell the caller that it is legal to carry a pistol and then ask them if he is doing anything suspicious if not there is nothing they can do. No they are not supposed to stop someone that is not breaking any laws it would be different if they heard there was a robbery in that vacinity. This is all to make gun owners fell like owning a gun is somehow illegal or wrong.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Have I got this right?-
1- Some states say that if you carry a gun, it MUST be openly visible in a holster, and that you'll be arrested if you carry it concealed.
2- Other states say that if you carry a gun it MUST be _*concealed*_ under your shirt or wherever.

Number 2 therefore seems the most sensible law, or am I missing something?


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

rickkyw1720pf said:


> The cops first needs to tell the caller that it is legal to carry a pistol and then ask them if he is doing anything suspicious if not there is nothing they can do. No they are not supposed to stop someone that is not breaking any laws it would be different if they heard there was a robbery in that vacinity. This is all to make gun owners fell like owning a gun is somehow illegal or wrong.


It wasn't so much the police but all the calls made because of the open carry. It's just a fact that people are not used to seeing people carrying a weapon in a populated area.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Ok heres my take. If open carry is legal then it is legal. If the person is no suspected of a crime then LE has no purpose questioning them.
In many state like here the law does not require you to show ID. In fact it is not legal for an office to demand one if you are not suspected of a crime. However they try it all of the time.
If the office is not violating the law he can not be baited. The first question should be am I suspected of a crime? If the answer is no then I would like to be on my way and do not wish to speak with you. By law that is the end of it.
However LE think they can do as they please they hold you question you and violate your rights.
If the answer is your carry a weapon. The next should be is that a crime the answer is no. Then on my way. The courts have ruled a simple open carrying is not probable cause to stop someone.
But LE keeps trying.
Weather anyone likes it or not if a person is open carrying in accordance with the law and not suspected of any crime the LE has no right to stop/detain them or request any information from them.
If after the person ask to be left alone they do not the office is wrong.
CC is different In Wisconsin if you CC and an Office ask you must show your card and ID. However if you have dome nothing wrong that should be the end of it.
LE has taken it upon them self to make up laws and enforce them.
You can no more stop a man doing nothing wrong and demand he answer question than you can stop a black man and demand he answer question just because you do like him being there.
LE has plenty to do without stopping People not breaking the law, focus on that and leave the citizens alone.
The Officer was not baited he chose to stop someone that was clearly not breaking the law, that was not suspected of a crime with any probable cause. This is a common form of harassment, often used by officers it has ended with law biding citizens being beat and jailed for no reason in Madison. 
The person that calls in should be ask is the man committing a crime if no tell caller to have a nice day hang up. If yes what is the crime. If it turns out caller lie he should be arrested.
We have rights for a reason, we do not give them up just because some officer thinks we should because he is the law, That is why we have them to stop this.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

If we see somebody open-carrying, should we call the police to check him out in case he's on his way to the local school or kids playground to start shooting?
One day a concerned citizen is going to shoot an OC-er dead before calling the police, and no jury would convict him


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## SIGP220 (Feb 4, 2013)

I watched that moron ,he did make the gun community look bad but,I tell you this those officers can tell it was a trap and if the one trooper could have remove the idiots weapon and charge him with inducing panic and disorderly conduct..also failure to properly identify himself...


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

That is an old vid, been around for a while. Yes he is a moron. He purposely set out to provoke an incident. And if memory serves me correctly (I don't care to watch it again) his father helps bail him out in the end.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> It wasn't so much the police but all the calls made because of the open carry. It's just a fact that people are not used to seeing people carrying a weapon in a populated area.


And other than open carry to show people that having a gun is not a threat, how are we/you/police going to change/educate the dumb people out there. When people see a person surrounded by cops, they naturally think "BG" did something wrong. But that is pretty hard to do when LEO's are no smarter than the dumb people out there making ignorant phone calls!


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Looks like we have several members here that should turn in their guns so they don't give others the wrong impression by scaring them with their guns. How many people out there run away when they see a cop with a gun on his hip or should we start calling 911 when ever we see a person in uniform with a gun? Oh. I forgot their legal so it's OK.


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## BDylan (Jan 2, 2013)

Lucky Jim said:


> If we see somebody open-carrying, should we call the police to check him out in case he's on his way to the local school or kids playground to start shooting?
> One day a concerned citizen is going to shoot an OC-er dead before calling the police, and no jury would convict him


 Why would a 'concerned' citizen shoot an OC-er? A jury would certainly convict for shooting an innocent person. If you see a person open- carrying in a state where it is legal, then obviously you should go about your business. Why would you assume this lawful action would be a precursor to a felony? We do not carry openly in my state. Schools are gun-free zones where only the nutjobs are armed.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

ekim said:


> Looks like we have several members here that should turn in their guns so they don't give others the wrong impression by scaring them with their guns. How many people out there run away when they see a cop with a gun on his hip or should we start calling 911 when ever we see a person in uniform with a gun? Oh. I forgot their legal so it's OK.


Because most people are used to seeing law enforcement with a gun. I say most people because I still get people that freak out seeing mine. Yes we are legal and so most people in most states. People see uniform think qualified, people see civilian with gun and they panic. Life get used to it.


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## Southern Dad (Nov 26, 2012)

I carry concealed. That said, no weapon is ever completely concealed in all cases. I had my weapon in a back holder and was wearing a jacket. I stopped to assist an attractive motorist with a flat tire. While changing the tire my weapon became exposed when my jacket caught on it. The officer who pulled up while I was changing it but didn't help in any way, noticed it. After the tire was changed and the motorist was on her way, he ran my plates, driver's license and CCW permit. Then he let me off with a verbal warning about keeping my weapon concealed.


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## Infidel (Dec 22, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> The person filming wants to violate the police offers first amendment of free speech. What is it that an officer can't cuss?


Actually the answer to that is probably no. I'm sure their employee's manual has a section in it that specifically mentions the use of profanity or the use of vulgar or abusive language. They are to conduct themselves as professionals at all time I'm sure and could very well face disciplinary sanctions if the citizens filed a complaint and offered the video as evidence.

-Infidel


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

_Lucky Jim said- 'One day a concerned citizen is going to shoot an OC-er dead before calling the police, and no jury would convict him'_



BDylan said:


> Why would a 'concerned' citizen shoot an OC-er? A jury would certainly convict for shooting an innocent person...


Looks like we do things different in Britain; anybody walking down the street with a gun here would soon get his brains beat out with a cricket bat.. 
Only a couple of weeks ago a gunman walked into a local bookies waving a gun and the customers quickly killed him with their bare hands and the police never arrested them-










http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Ply...tory-18021388-detail/story.html#axzz2KXXnR0aF


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## PTAaron (Nov 8, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> _Lucky Jim said- 'One day a concerned citizen is going to shoot an OC-er dead before calling the police, and no jury would convict him'_
> 
> Looks like we do things different in Britain; anybody walking down the street with a gun here would soon get his brains beat out with a cricket bat..
> Only a couple of weeks ago a gunman walked into a local bookies waving a gun and the customers quickly killed him with their bare hands and the police never arrested them-
> ...


Walking down the street with a gun in a holster in a state where open carry is legal is WAY different than waving a gun around in the air. One is legal and anyone attacking the person for doing so is the one committing a crime, the other is "brandishing" and is not legal... and in many cases if someone comes in waving a gun you would be perfectly legal to shoot them.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

If every state made OC ILLEGAL, and CC LEGAL the problem would be solved wouldn't it?
I mean, people wouldn't know or care if somebody had a gun in a shoulder holster legally buttoned under their shirt.


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## BDylan (Jan 2, 2013)

Well...anytime the good guys prevail and the douchebags lose, justice is likely served. However, in this country, I would strongly advise against attempting the bare handed citizens arrest on someone waving a gun. The weapon will probably not be an 'imitation pistol' and the results could be disappointing.


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## PTAaron (Nov 8, 2012)

Alternatively making OC legal everywhere would also solve the "problem"


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> Because most people are used to seeing law enforcement with a gun. I say most people because I still get people that freak out seeing mine. Yes we are legal and so most people in most states. People see uniform think qualified, people see civilian with gun and they panic. Life get used to it.


If more citizens open carried people would get use to it AGAIN, that was LIFE once upon a time. People see a uniform now and know there is no use in even saying anything, that is life now!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

So, legally owning and carrying a weapon is now reason for suspicion? This is good enough reason to stop and question a citizen?

The cops are very much wrong. 

Then again, he is also baiting idiots.

Worse, yet, idiot citizens call cops because they see a man carrying a holstered weapon.

Notice how many dumb and immaterial rhetorical questions officer Horn asks while he suggests carrying a weapon is inherently reckless. Moronic.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> Have I got this right?-
> 1- Some states say that if you carry a gun, it MUST be openly visible in a holster, and that you'll be arrested if you carry it concealed.
> 2- Other states say that if you carry a gun it MUST be _*concealed*_ under your shirt or wherever.
> 
> Number 2 therefore seems the most sensible law, or am I missing something?


Jim

Some states have Concealed Carry Laws some dont. In a conceal carry "only" state you can not show the gun or it may be considered brandishing a gun which is a criminal offense in most cases.

Some states have both a CC and Open Carry as well. If your a permit holder you can conceal the gun or you can open carry. If you do not have a CC permit then you have to Open Carry to be legal.

Some states do not have CC but in most cases will allow for open carry only.

The guy was clearly baiting the cops Ill admit. But the cops should have known the laws and should have been able to easily acertain that he was breaking no laws and allow him to go about his business. If he had been waving the gun around or playing around with it then I could see a problem. Unfortunately most folks in the US are pretty pathetically ignorant on laws regarding guns and freak out first instead of think first.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

oswegoscott said:


> You're right,Jim. Pretty asinine,eh? We have to be aware of many differing Fed,state and local laws about many things. Just a way to garner revenue from travelers,I think
> Some states require a helmet when riding a motorcycle--some don't. Better make sure ya know where the state line is.


You got that right oswegoscott!!! Its a real mine field out there to walk at times.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> The guy was clearly baiting the cops Ill admit. But the cops should have known the laws and should have been able to easily acertain that he was breaking no laws and allow him to go about his business...


But how can they be sure he wasn't a crackpot on his way to a school to shoot kids?
Anyway, it's bad prepping to get yourself noticed by OC-ing because the cops will remember your face, your bad attitude, your licence plate and you'll be filmed by their dashcam.
Then when they get back to the station they'll probably open a file on you under the "Suspicious Characters" category and run background checks on you, and speak to your neighbours and your employers to find out more about you etc.
When SHTF in the future and the government brings in 'Emergency Powers' you'll be rounded up and interned as a "suspicious character" for the duration of the Emergency, unable to protect your family when they need you most-
_"Mom, I wish dad was here"
"So do I sweetheart, so do I".._









The first rule of prepping and survival is DON'T GET YOURSELF NOTICED or you'll attract unwanted attention, and open-carrying sure as hell attracts attention!
Police baiting is confrontational and therefore also violates an ancient rule of warfare- _"The greatest warrior is the one who never has to fight a battle"- Sun Tzu 600 BC_

Regarding the gun control debate in general, I can foresee the US government using the following quote to justify disarming people-
_"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are *peaceable citizens *from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams_

and they'll say something like "by open-carrying, you're frightening your fellow citizens, disrespecting the police and wasting their time, therefore you're not a peacable citizen so we're taking your guns"

The same Adams quote will also be used to hit all other gun owners everywhere whether they're open-carriers or not, because if somebody so much as jaywalks or breaks any other tiny little law, the government will say "okay, you're a non-peaceable lawbreaker and we're taking your guns".
We already have something like that in Britain because if you apply for a gun permit here the police will refuse it out of hand if you've got the slightest blemish against your character.
I once served 3 months in a Brit slammer on a vigilante rap so no way hozay would I ever be allowed to own a gun now, i'll have to use sharp sticks to defend myself when SHTF..


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

oswegoscott said:


> Open carry is a deterrent. A bad guy is much less likely to mess with a person carrying. A good analogy is a house known to have a big dog or two


On the other hand, if a bad guy decides to start shooting people he'll plug you first before you can draw..


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Lucky Jim, you have just built a straw man:



> But how can they be sure he wasn't a crackpot on his way to a school to shoot kids?


There are no such things as "Future Crimes" in liberty. The man was violating no laws. There was no reason to think he was on his way to a school. As a matter of fact, have any of the school shooters walked along the roadway while open carrying a sidearm?

That logic (suspicion due to existence) means I might be on the way to commit a crime while I am driving to the bank, regardless of whether I am carrying. That line of reasoning means liberty my be tossed aside because any of us may commit some crime.

Bad logic and reasoning that would be fitting for a tyrant.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Here's a quote that the US government might try to use to justify *searching your house*!

_"..the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed......The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against *unreasonable searches *and seizures, shall not be violated"- US Constitution_

See, the cops could apply to the D.A's office or wherever for a search warrant on the grounds that it's NOT unreasonable to want to search the home of a "suspicious character".
The moral?- stay squeaky clean and they can't touch you..


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## Southern Dad (Nov 26, 2012)

> But how can they be sure he wasn't a crackpot on his way to a school to shoot kids?


Here's an idea, let's start arresting people for what they MAY be about to do. We can call it "thought crime". Sounds awful Orwellian doesn't it?


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> Here's a quote that the US government might try to use to justify *searching your house*!
> 
> _"..the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed......The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against *unreasonable searches *and seizures, shall not be violated"- US Constitution_
> 
> ...


How good did that work for all the squeaky clean citizens in england???? Sorry but your "logic" is BS, and anti American, IMO!


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

News item- *Attorney General Secretly Granted Gov. Ability to Develop and Store Dossiers on Innocent Americans*
_"In a secret government agreement granted without approval or debate from lawmakers, the U.S. attorney general recently [2012] gave the National Counterterrorism Center sweeping new powers to store dossiers on U.S. citizens, even if they are not suspected of a crime, according to a news report...."_

Attorney General Secretly Granted Gov. Ability to Develop and Store Dossiers on Innocent Americans | Threat Level | Wired.com

PS- there was a post in this forum a couple of months ago about a US guy whose home in the countryside was raided and his guns seized because neighbors had complained that he was always shooting his mouth off criticising the government and other stuff, i've ran a forum search but can't find it. 
I'll keep looking but in the meantime maybe other people remember it?


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Isn't social engeneering wonderul...we have been conditioned to adopt and adapt to certain social customs and conventions. Currently open carry is a social taboo, where did that taboo come from? If you stop and think about it, a lot of attitudes and ideas are instilled. It's not polite nor necessary to openly carry. It scares people and you don't want to scare people do you? 

See what I've done there. I've touched on what we've been conditioned to accept. There are times and places where open carry is acceptable or necessary, there are times and places it's not. Thats why the laws are still on the books. What this individual has done is step outside the social norms we have been conditioned to accept and paid the price for it.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

ekim said:


> ..Sorry but your "logic" is BS, and anti American, IMO!


Huh? how can I be anti-American by suggesting ideas to help you stop being rounded up by The Man when SHTF?
Even some old western towns like Dodge banned open-carry because it made the town look bad..

_"The city passed an ordinance that guns could not be worn or carried north of the "deadline" which was the railroad tracks"_
http://gunvictimsaction.org/blog/20...en-carry-and-conceal-and-carry-in-dodge-city/


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

Maybe we should thank the gun control people. Before they came along and started trying to ban guns and woke people up only a few states gave out conceled Liciences. Now most state are shall issue states ( meaning as long as you meet certain requirements they have to issue you a liciences) now we are starting to see some unrestricted states even ( you don't need a liciences to carry open or conceled )

This site has a good map of the states and their laws and other information.

Guns And The Law


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## fedorthedog (Feb 28, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> The person filming wants to violate the police offers first amendment of free speech. What is it that an officer can't cuss?


It generally violates policy of your department to be rude. You dont have a first amendment right at work that why they arnt supposed to engage in political activity in uniform.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> Here's a quote that the US government might try to use to justify *searching your house*!
> 
> _"..the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed......The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against *unreasonable searches *and seizures, shall not be violated"- US Constitution_
> 
> ...


Your statement is off base. Unreasonable is a word that is defined in our documentation and process, not on whims.
Liberty does not mandate one be sqdaky clean, which , by the way, is another one of you strawmen. There is no dirt when exercising a right.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

If I was open-carrying in a holster and the police came up to question me, I'd be smiling, open and friendly and tell them my name and address, no problem.
It's only the unfriendly baiters with an attitude who say "I don't have to tell you my name", and get all sensible gun owners a bad name.

Incidentally if a US cop asks why you're open carrying, can you say something like-"For self defence, and to protect other people if a gunman should start shooting", or would it be illegal to say that?
(For example a Brit guy on TV last year was pulled over for a minor traffic offence and the cops noticed a baseball bat on the back seat. They asked him what it was for and he said "No reason, it just happens to be there", and they couldn't touch him for having it, but later during their chat he let slip it was "for self-defence", so they arrested him for having an unlawful weapon)


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

fedorthedog said:


> It generally violates policy of your department to be rude. You dont have a first amendment right at work that why they arnt supposed to engage in political activity in uniform.


Furthermore, the first amendment does not guarantee the right to be vulgar in public. That was in no way the intention. It is a shame ojr society has degenerated to the point of accepting such nonsense as being true.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> If I was open-carrying in a holster and the police came up to question me, I'd be smiling, open and friendly and tell them my name and address, no problem.
> It's only the unfriendly baiters who go into "asshole" mode and say "I don't have to tell you my name", and get all sensible gun owners a bad name.
> 
> Incidentally if a US cop asks why you're open carrying, can you say something like-"For self defence, and to protect other people if a gunman should start shooting", or would it be illegal to say that?
> (For example a Brit guy on TV last year was pulled over for a minor traffic offence and the cops noticed a baseball bat on the back seat. They asked him what it was for and he said "No reason, it just happens to be there", and they couldn't touch him for having it, but later during their chat he let slip it was "for self-defence", so they arrested him for having an unlawful weapon)


Rather than get frustrated with this virtual keyboard, let me say two quick things...
This is not England. 
By answering questions, you enter jurisdiction.
The citizen was, indeed, polite. The cops were way off constitutional flagstones.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

_Lucky Jim said- Here's a quote that the US government might try to use to justify searching your house!
"..the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed......The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against *unreasonable searches *and seizures, shall not be violated"- US Constitution
See, the cops could apply to the D.A's office or wherever for a search warrant on the grounds that it's NOT unreasonable to want to search the home of a "suspicious character".
The moral?- stay squeaky clean and they can't touch you"_



Denton said:


> Your statement is off base. Unreasonable is a word that is defined in our documentation and process, not on whims.
> Liberty does not mandate one be sqdaky clean, which , by the way, is another one of you strawmen. There is no dirt when exercising a right.


Tell that to the cops when they bust down your door to take your guns..
Sure, it probably won't happen at this point in time unless you're a wanted fugitive or something, but when SHTF happens such as Economic Collapse, food riots, lawlessness etc the Govt can enact any "Emergency Powers" they like, and do whatever they like such as seizing guns, martial law, curfews, close gas stations etc.
They'll even shut banks to stop people getting their money out like they did at the start of WW2.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Denton said:


> Rather than get frustrated with this virtual keyboard, let me say two quick things...
> This is not England. By answering questions, you enter jurisdiction.
> The citizen was, indeed, polite. The cops were way off constitutional flagstones.


Is an open-carrier being polite by upsetting citizens and making them unhappy, thereby violationg their Constitutional right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of *happiness*"?..


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> Is an open-carrier being polite by upsetting citizens and making them unhappy, thereby violationg their Constitutional right to "life, liberty and *the pursuit *of *happiness*"?..


Key word here is "pursuit" it doesn't say happiness is a right. If I'm unhappy over a display by say someone being gay or a person of color or dressed in middle eastern clothing or with full body tattoos or someone with a disability or someone expressing their opinion I dis agree with, then what? IMO, you need to rethink some of your posts and the wording as I don't think your making your point very well.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Sometimes even when your obeying the law people will not like it. Unfortunately arrogance and stupidity are not against the law here although it should be. As a law abiding citizen exercising my rights which do not infringe on yours other than your touchy feely opinions, those folks gotta understand, I am well with in my rights and while they might not agree with it or want to do it themselves doesnt give them a right to force their opinions or values upon me. Of course the more our public education continues to dumb down Americans the less that know what the Constitution and bill of rights mean and the less they understand it, and the more ignorant they become.

Its kind of like the gay thing. Its perfectly well with in someones rights to be gay if thats their cup of tea. It just aint mine though. I dont believe in it and I dont agree with it but I understand some folks will be like that no matter what. So if I see two guys waiting at the bus stop swapping spit, I might not like it or agree with it and I might not think PDA like that in public is appropriate and perhaps that makes me a bit of a prude, but it is legal, its not hurting me or violating my rights (although it might violate how things should be in my perfect world), so I shake my head and keep walking on by. Its that simple really. But you have more and more people these days that want to mind your business more than than their own #$%&*@! business. Thats where we run into problems here.

Our gun laws are pretty black and white here although they vary from area to area. There are more laws on the books than you can shake a stick at. More than enough to keep you safe from a law abiding citizen whos armed. We are granted the right to own, keep and bear arms by our constitution and bill of rights. There were a lot of powerful reasons why the framers of the constitution and bill of rights included and specifically mentioned this right of the people. For those that have never lived someplace where they have those rights I wouldnt expect them to even begin to understand it or why we have it. For someone in a country that hasnt had to fight for independence, experienced civil war or had to over throw a overbearing government, you probably wouldnt be able to appreciate having the right or the ability to do so. Unfortunately many in our country today thru ignorance have forgotten who they are, where they came from and how they got here. Most people dont know what it is they have until its gone and once its gone its likely gone forever.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

ekim said:


> ...IMO, you need to rethink some of your posts and the wording as I don't think your making your point very well.


Maybe we should have a poll answering the question:- 
Do open-carrying police-baiters make all gun owners look bad?

PS- If an open-carrier is friendly to the police when they turn up and gives them his name, that's fine; I'm just talking about the baiters who refuse to give their names.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> Our gun laws are pretty black and white here although they vary from area to area....
> ..For someone in a country that hasnt had to fight for independence, experienced civil war or had to over throw a overbearing government...


Yeah Rickkyw's map link shows that different states have different gun laws, even they can't agree about OC or CC!
As for Britain, we had to fight invading Romans, Vikings, Normans and Nazis, and we even had a Civil War too.
Oh, and 26 Brits died at the Alamo, we've been around..


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

@lucky Jim
Quote: The moral?- stay squeaky clean and they can't touch you..

It depend on who's ideal of squeaky clean you are talking about. People get arrested all the time for laws on the books that they know nothing about. We hear all the time ignorance of the law is know excuse. But I can show you several cases where the police arrest or hassle someone because they don't know the law. If the police in the video would have just followed the laws there wouldn't have been a video. He was harassed because he was doing something that wasn't politically correct. Not because he wasn't squeaky clean.


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## AsteroidX (Dec 11, 2012)

IMO 2nd Amenders although may be related are NOT the same thing as Preppers.. They just stand for something important to us as a group.


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## nechaev (Nov 10, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> Have I got this right?-
> 1- Some states say that if you carry a gun, it MUST be openly visible in a holster, and that you'll be arrested if you carry it concealed.
> 2- Other states say that if you carry a gun it MUST be _*concealed*_ under your shirt or wherever.
> 
> Number 2 therefore seems the most sensible law, or am I missing something?


Some states allow open carry and concealed carry both, so you have a choice. Most of these states require some sort of permit or license to carry concealed, but not all of them. For instance, I live in Arizona and I can legally open carry, concealed carry without a permit, or take a class and get a permit to concealed carry. The permit in Arizona is mainly useful to let law enforcement know that you have been through some training and a background check, and to allow one to purchase firearms without going though the instant FBI phone check, since they have already cleared the background check for the permit. Each state varies and you should know the law before attempting to exercise any of the above mentioned carry methods. I hope that you are sufficiently confused.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

oswegoscott said:


> I'd like to know why you,as a foreigner, are interested. Does it have relevance in your country? Do you plan on introducing our laws over there?


You're right of course, it's absolutely none of my business, it's just that I keep seeing your open-carry cop-hating police baiters on youtube and wondered if my American prepper pals might have overlooked the damage they're doing to the reputation of all sensible US gun owners everywhere


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## Sr40ken (Nov 21, 2012)

Some of you from Europe and larger more.....liberal cities needs to realize it wasn't that long ago around here you would see people open carrying or going into a store with thier hunting rifle over thier shoulder. My state is an open carry state. It would depend on the carriers mood and/or body laguage if I would be concerned. But then that is why I carry concealed.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Lucky Jim.
It is different depending on the state your in.
Wisconsin we have a state Constitution that allows open carry. Because of that no permit is required. How ever open carry has it problems. LEO that do not respect the right it scares people ect.
We passed a Carry Conceal law. Different from the Open carry, Conceal carry it is not a direct Constitutional right . It requires a permit. If you want to Conceal carry you agree to play by the rules of the law.
1. Get permit and attend required class
2. carry it anytime you CC
3. If requested by a LEO you must produce the permit.
Up side of CC unlike Open carry you can Carry your weapon in your car loaded. Without a CC permit you can not.
The two situations are very different from each other.
One is a Constitutional Right 
The other is granted by Legislation and can be take away or changed by the state .
You can not use any part of how things work in the UK and compare it to the US. While some would like to think we have a lot in common we do not.
We have not surrendered to the Government yet.
Once again no one is baiting a COP. The LEO is in the wrong he is going outside what he law allows him to do. If the LEO did as he was suppose to there would be no video.
The one doing damage is the LEO, he is showing he has no respect for the law. Our rights under the Constitution are not based on weather everyone agrees with them or not that is why we have.
them.
I can understand how you may see it differently, The liberal press puts their spin on it and living in England you would have no concept of what the 2nd amendment means and how important it is.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Lucky Jim.
> It is different depending on the state your in.
> Wisconsin we have a state Constitution that allows open carry. Because of that no permit is required. How ever open carry has it problems. LEO that do not respect the right it scares people ect.
> We passed a Carry Conceal law. Different from the Open carry, Conceal carry it is not a direct Constitutional right . It requires a permit. If you want to Conceal carry you agree to play by the rules of the law.
> ...


Very well put. I'm not that good with words as most, but that was spot on, thanks for that post!


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> ..I can understand how you may see it differently, The liberal press puts their spin on it and living in England you would have no concept of what the 2nd amendment means and how important it is.


I see vids of open-carriers provoking confrontations with the police, exactly what's the purpose of that and what good does it do?
Incidentally I support the extreme right Brit Nationalist parties and can't stomach liberals.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Once again no one is baiting a COP. The LEO is in the wrong he is going outside what he law allows him to do. If the LEO did as he was suppose to there would be no video.
> The one doing damage is the LEO, he is showing he has no respect for the law. Our rights under the Constitution are not based on weather everyone agrees with them or not that is why we have.
> them.


Smitty there are many things I agree with you on but this is not one of them.

Many of the open carry vid's are done so with a planned confrontation at the start. Just like the last vid posted here. You have some guy (a moron in my opinion) walking up a busy highway in a state that probably just passed open carry and knowing someone will see him and call the cops. When these people complain the LEO's have to investigate. I will grant you the first cop was testy. But this guy planned it this way. I can tell you that I am enough of an a$$hole that if someone gets in my face, they are probably gonna get the same back. I think I know you well enough by now that you would be the same. At the end the guy was not so blustery and his daddy had to clean up his mess.

Many of these people are just trying to make a name for themselves on youtube. If this was a true resistance thing I could understand. But why kick a dog and then complain when he tries to bite you?


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

I have to agree with some of what is being said about some looking to get noticed. but isn't that what free speech is all about. Isn't that what protest marches are about. Isn't that what our Constitution and the Bill of Rights are all about. It goes both ways and you na sayers need to suck it up and smell the roses. If it's legal then where do the cops get off trying to stop them. It's not up to the individual citizen to educate/train cops on the laws of the land, if they don't know whats legal to do in their, city, county, state then they need to be removed from there position of authority. This subject has been beat to death and nothing changes. Don't like open carry, repeal the law, until then leave the "legal" law abiding citizen alone and have the cops chase BG's/law breakers. If the cops don't start following the law, someone is going to get shot/killed and then whats going to happen? Cops don't need the good guys against them along with the BG's, but they seem to be pushing the law abiding citizen that way, IMO.


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## jandor123 (Oct 24, 2012)

Its open carry here, and you can carry concealed withoit a permit. When i go up north, its common to see folks with guns on their hips. But as a card carrying 2nd amendment "right wing nut", who owns guns for recreation, i am still "surprised" when i see one. It's best to keep it close to the vest, in my opinion ;-) 
Most sheeple treat a gun like a snake, expecting it to jump into their hands, and just start firing away...stupid.
I treat them as a tool, and use them in the appropriate manner, just like any other tool I may have in my shop.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> You're right of course, it's absolutely none of my business, it's just that I keep seeing your open-carry cop-hating police baiters on youtube and wondered if my American prepper pals might have overlooked the damage they're doing to the reputation of all sensible US gun owners everywhere


Your right maybe it aint none of your concern but as a non US citizen I can understand with things being so starkly different in Eroupe that would make the situation confusing for you to clearly understand.

I worked a a police officer for a couple of years and they dont all know the law all that well. That I can assure you. I caught many a person with a gun illegally out of ignorance. Instead of making a big deal out of spilled milk when it was obvious to me the individual in question had no mal intent and thought they were okay I let it slide and took the oppertunity to educate them since I was most familar with the law in that regard. In fact I often told them ways to get around various regulations and still be legal.

I agree with Inceptor, while the guy might have been legit, I think he was out flaunting the open carry and looking for a confrontation with the police and unfortunatey found a few of the the not so informed and took advantage of it when he did to make a issue out of it. I would also say too that before the cops even made contact with him they should have made sure they had their ducks in a row and thoroughly knew the law before confronting them. As a police Officer I often found that I caught more flies with honey than others did using vinegar if you know what I mean. The police in this case could have been a little more informed and a little less confrontational and still been able to do their job and quickly resolve the issue in less than 2 minutes with minimal fuss on both partys part.

Right , wrong or indifferent, the clown with the gun could have been a little less hardcore and ruffled a lot less feathers in the first place. I dont always agree with the Police and I certianly dont trust many of them for the most part But its usually a good idea and certianly in your best interest to be a little less abrasive and confrontational. I counted at least 3 of them and there was only him and his dad and even if both were armed thats still 3 against 2 and a good way to make things go terribly wrong for all involved. You can be co-operative with them without giving up any of your rights, it just takes a little bit more tact than the open carry guy used is all I am really saying. He could have exercised his right to open carry, made his point without being arrogant about it and got his youtube video. While you might be right you might end up being dead right if your not careful in which case you have gained nothing. You cant go around beating on a hornets nest with a stick and then wonder why you got stung, you know what I mean?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> Is an open-carrier being polite by upsetting citizens and making them unhappy, thereby violationg their Constitutional right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of *happiness*"?..


I hate that stupid tablet that I try and use when at work!

Now that I have said that, allow me to say this....

Clearly, you are simply having fun with me. Ha-ha. I don't mind. :mrgreen:

We are not you, on several different layers. You gave us the Magna Carta and Common Law, and we took it to another level due to the King.
We do not have to do certain things, like offer statements when the authorities are conducting an investigation against us. Not only is everything you say used against you, you enter into their jurisdiction when you answer the first question. 
The cops will try and get you to answer a question so they can then ask more or take some action. By standing on your constitutionally protected rights, you give them the opportunity of leaving you alone or violating those constitutionally protected rights.

This is why you do not cheerfully offer up responses to the questions they have no business asking a citizen who is doing nothing illegal.

Another way we are different is that we have not lost our right to keep and bear arms, yet. Personally, I would like to keep it that way. I have no doubt that you do not understand us, but we are from different cultures. Don't take this wrong, but I do not want us to become like y'all.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Even though open-carry is perfectly legal in some states, that's beside the point, this is a Prepping Discussion forum so I simply put up the question for debate about whether it's downright *bad prepping *to provoke open-carry confrontations with the cops?
After all, preppers are preparing for the bad times ahead when SHTF and there's economic collapse, food riots, curfews, martial law and specially-introduced Emergency Powers.

Those emergency powers might authorise the police to round up all "suspicious characters" and intern them for the duration of the emergency (known criminals, political agitators etc) and if somebody's got a reputation as an open-carry cop baiter they'll probably round him up too, catch my drift?

True preppers adopt the "stealth" approach by lying low and quietly prepping for SHTF, the last thing they want to do is draw attention to themselves and get themselves noticed by The Man, and open-carry sure as hell gets you noticed..

As I tell my students on the PC tactical wargame circuit- "Stay hidden, stay concealed, the enemy can't get you if he can't see you"..


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## Sr40ken (Nov 21, 2012)

In a prepper situation and assume I'm walking, how are we gonna hide a Mini14 and and 1892? So my hand gun(s) on my hip need to be hidden? If I won't have the liberty to have our handguns out then I'm screwed with a rifle or two.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

Obama is a hell of a gun sales man.

There have been a total of 65,376,373 background checks conducted on Americans seeking to purchase firearms since February 2009, the first full month of President Barack Obama's first term, CNSNews.com reports. To put that into perspective, the number of gun background checks under Obama outnumber the entire population of the U.K., which is estimated at about 61.8 million.

A background check is only done after you do all the paperwork and are ready to hand the money over so each check pretty much equals a sale. And that doesn't even show the true number of guns purchased between individuals which is estimated to be 30% to 40% of all guns sold.

Number of Gun Background Checks Under Obama Outnumber the Entire Population of the U.K. | TheBlaze.com


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

I wonder how many of the new guns are the evil black rifles, that has a pistol grip turning them into killing machines. 
I remember many years ago there wasn't a lot of companies making them of course Colt and Bushmast was probably the first. Now cut me some slack because I am just going by memory.
Now some of the companies making them are
Colt
Bushmaster 
Rockriver
Olympia arms 
Lmt
Smith and Wesson
Rugger
Sig
Fn-Herschel 
And these are just the ones I can think of now I am sure I am missing a lot more.


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## jrclen (Dec 22, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> Is an open-carrier being polite by upsetting citizens and making them unhappy, thereby violationg their Constitutional right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of *happiness*"?..


It's a small point Jim, but that phrase by Thomas Jefferson was written in the Declaration of Independence, and is not in the Constitution.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Lucky, Often good people with or with out weapons stop bad people committing crimes, However out liberal/socialist press does not report it.
That is another problem with liberalism and socialism, you only get their version.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Lucky, Often good people with or with out weapons stop bad people committing crimes, However out liberal/socialist press does not report it.
> That is another problem with liberalism and socialism, you only get their version.


Yeah, the traitorous lying commie bastards are everywhere in the US and Britain as thick as fleas on a hound dawg's back-
_"A lie told often enough becomes the truth"- Lenin
"He who now talks about the "freedom of the press" goes backward, and halts our headlong course towards Socialism"- Lenin_

So beware THE TRAITORS WITHIN OUR GATES-
_"The traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, 
his sly whispers rustling through 
all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. 
...He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and 
unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city" 
-Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BC-43 BC) _

_"The Stranger within my gates,
He may be evil or good, 
But I cannot tell what powers control,
What reasons sway his mood,
Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
Shall repossess his blood"
-Rudyard Kipling 1865-1936_


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Since I'm very un PC and tired of the BS excuses, reasons not to, liberal bull crap, a so called gun person from a country that has banned almost all guns telling Americans how to keep their gun rights. Sorry, but taking his advise about gun rights is about as smart as asking joe biden or nobama. I've yet to read one reason from him that hasn't been pushed by the liberal media or hollywood jerk. He needs to stop and decide which side he's on and stop straddling the fence, cause if you slip it may be very painful if both feet don't reach the ground.

This post may well get me in trouble here but I'm tired of this crap from what I'm seeing as a liberal troll just raising his post count.

Gun rights aren't about feel good ideas or making someone think their safe. Guns put england in their place, stop BG's doing harm to others and some day may yet bring freedom back to American citizens again and with any luck drive liberals out of this country, maybe all the way to england, where they can feel at home! Americans don't run and hide, we fight for our rights and sure as hell don't give them up easily as our history will show. Open carry, CC, pistol on your hip or long gun over your shoulder, I don't care.
If you are legal, do it as a Free American citizen, to hell with what others think.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

This is a perfect example of some one who was legally right and yet completely wrong at the same time. Some times you win the battle but lose the war.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

GTGallop said:


> This is a perfect example of some one who was legally right and yet completely wrong at the same time. Some times you win the battle but lose the war.


What did he/we loose, the fight still continues. You only loose when you give up!


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

ekim said:


> ..I'm tired of this crap from what I'm seeing as a liberal troll just raising his post count..


Who me? The Brit liberal-infested judicial system jailed me for 3 months on a trumped-up vigilante rap, i went through 7 court appearances and learned a lot about all their sly little tricks, they're no friends of mine.
I can see American liberals trying to do the same sort of thing over there, so I'm simply giving this forum the benefit of my experience in dealing with their sort.
They'll use every little trick and loophole to try to take your guns away, that's why my advice is don't play into their hands by provoking open-carry arguments with the police..


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Lucky Jim said:


> Who me? The Brit liberal-infested judicial system jailed me for 3 months on a trumped-up vigilante rap, i went through 7 court appearances and learned a lot about all their sly little tricks, they're no friends of mine.
> I can see American liberals trying to do the same sort of thing over there, so I'm simply giving this forum the benefit of my experience in dealing with their sort.
> They'll use every little trick and loophole to try to take your guns away, that's why my advice is don't play into their hands by provoking open-carry arguments with the police..


Or as I see your view, sit back and wait til they pass the law and order you to turn them in, then do so, does that sound familiar? I don't play with my rights, my life or theirs is at stake. Very hard to fight back after you've given up your weapons.

I'm done with this post, you've made your pitch. Have a great day.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

this guy is clearly baiting the cops. he is walking around with a camera hoping to be stopped by the police so he could film them making a mistake, then he will take action by either threatening to sue them or actually sue them for money. Is this a bad thing? my answer is yes, it is unethical actually, however this is neccessary and it has to be done. as an active law enforcement officer in a major metropolitan police department, I know for a fact that there are police who are in the streets unknowingly violating the peoples constitutional and civil rights. A lot of cops dont know the law. I remember there was a time when police involved shooting was up due to uncooperatative suspects who were non compliant to officer after a stop. Most of the suspect's were shot, later on to be discovered to be suffering from either insulin shock or alzheimers disease. After so many of these incidents, police departments accross the nation started training cops how to deal with unusual people acting strange. the shootings went down and more sick people were dealt safely and without injury. As for this open carry issue, unfortunately police departments have to be sued several times and made accountable before they teach their officers about gun laws. most cops are running around in the streets believing civilians should not be armed or do not have the right to be armed.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

ekim said:


> ..I'm done with this post, you've made your pitch. Have a great day.


Wait a minute, you called me a "liberal" so I'm just setting the record straight by showing I'm not one!
I support the extreme rightwing British Patriotic Parties (boy do the libs, lefties and pinko maggots hate our guts!) and I was once granted honorary membership of an American deep south Survivalist forum because they liked my right-wing posts that I've been plastering all over the net for years. (I think there were some Klansmen among them)
Heck one forum member even asked me to write to his jailed brother who was on "illegal firearm possession" charges because I know how to kick the legal systems butt, and I was glad to help.
Incidentally the cops once seized my guns 20 years ago (two air pistols and an air rifle) and hauled me off for questioning at the police station (some nonsense about death threats to local lefty politicians) and asked me to sign the guns over to them. I knew my rights and said "No way hozay" and walked out carrying my guns and there wasn't a thing they could do about it. I even got a ride home in the police van!

PS- here's a vid of me under my wargaming name 'Poor Old Spike', do I look like a f*cking nerdy liberal? ha ha..


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

AsteroidX said:


> Missouri cell phone & text messaging laws, legislation | Hands Free Info
> 
> At the time the callers were legal to call while driving. Soon that will likely not be the case.


In a lot of states talking on a cell phone while driving is illegal...unless the person is using a hands free device...then it's ok...how long will it be before an officer tells a motorist...thanks for calling us and here's your ticket...


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## AsteroidX (Dec 11, 2012)

How long will it be before a criminal gets off the hook because someone commited a crime to call in a crime by using there cell phone while driving. 

In my state they just incresed the fine from 250 to 1000$ and are talking about making it equal to a DUII..and adding eating and a couple other things to the list of the distracted driver Law. Gah. I hate Legislators. They arent needed to constantly make new Laws. Just enforce the ones we have and keep the Constitution sound. A big problem is Legislators think they have to be doing Lawmaking when in reality theres nothing that says they have to make new Laws. Theyd be better served going over the books and removing red tape Laws.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

oswegoscott said:


> I believe an exception is made for 911 calls


You are more than likely right on that one...Though given the way things are going these days I wouldn't count on it...best to find a safe place to pull over and then make the call.

Whats funny not haha funny, is that I see people all the time driving with a cell phone in thie ear, and it's a ticketable offense here. They still do it though...


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