# Carbon steel or stainless steel for your blade?



## Oddcaliber

Tonight at Wally World I spotted a very cheap knife set. Made in China,3 knives for $3.00. Sunbeam brand name on package. Got me thinking(and can be dangerous at times,LOL). There's lots of good knives out there so what do you like,carbon or stainless?


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## alterego

Carbon Steel For Me. Stainless Will Not Keep An Edge.


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## paraquack

I second the motion. However I did find a mill file for S.S. and can now keep an edge on my cheap stuff.


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## AquaHull

Carbon will sharpen and stay sharp longer


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## Camel923

What about a Damascus blade?


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## redhawk

I have both and I have found carbon will achieve an edge quicker but the stainless will hold the edge longer but is harder to get an edge...JM2C


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## Jeep

I'll take either, as I may find something that fits my hand but it only comes in SS, then fine, and vice versa. I tend to check the blades but not use them much.


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## Arklatex

I like both. The carbon is easy to sharpen but it discolors and rusts easily. My stainless blades in s30v are hard to sharpen but they hold an edge well and are tough as hell. If I had to choose it would be stainless for me.


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## dwight55

Carbon gets my vote, . . . 

Stainless makes good anchors and hammers.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## 2Tim215

Ok. I make knives for a living so I really need to set some things straight here. I do stainless and forge high carbon blades and I make my own Damascus. At heart I am a hammer swinger and carbon steel is my preferred knife steel, not because it's better than anything else but because it has character. But the reality is that an average SS like N690 (similar to 440C) will out perform any carbon steel blade any day of the week. Why? Because if the heat treat and temper is done correctly you have a blade that sharpens relatively easily and retains its edge holding capability. Plus it requires no maintenance. All steels used in the knife making world that have a carbon content above 0.6 make good knives. N690 has 1.08. O1 has 0.95. 1090 has 0.85-0.95. And this is just the carbon and not the various other alloys that make up the steel.
If a good steel is used then it's never the steel but rather the HT process where the fault lies and this is usually with the maker.
A custom knife is given special care during the entire process to ensure that the outcome is a good working knife that does what a knife must do - cut. A production knife is just one of many that go through a automated process in batches and sometimes a bad one slips through. Most cheap knives are the lowest carbon content they can go and still make a knife.

In the end it's what you the user want in a knife. A super steel that stays sharp for almost ever but when it gets blunt requires an entire workshop just to get sharp. Or a good quality med to high carbon knife in either "high carbon" or SS (coz remember, both are high carbon) that has good edge retention but can easily be sharpened in the field. Smaller knives can be harder than big choppers as they are not heavy users and thus will stay sharper longer coz they are harder. Big choppers need flexibility and must not chip when cutting down trees etc so must be softer, more pliable. How you do the HT and temper determines how you achieve this. You can not have both. Steel doesn't work that way. That is why the preferred big knives are high carbon coz you can have a hard edge but soft spine. Can't do that with SS. But then again, try and snap a 6-8mm SS blade:grin:


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## Fuzzee

2Tim215 gives a real good breakdown as a knifemaker. As a long time buyer and user I'd simply add it depends on what you want to pay too and what you want the knife to do. If you're looking to keep your investment on the low end (less than a hundred) and/or very low end, than you're probably better off with a good carbon steel knife. If you don't mind paying for it there are excellent premium "stainless" steel knives out there with good designs and quality steels done right. Now I'll say this first. I love knives. I have since I was a boy and got my first pocket knife at 8. I use them though and don't buy them for keeping in a case. I love them as the incredible tools they are. One of the most important bushcraft tools there are for a prepper/survivalist. There the one thing I would choose if I could only have one thing on me and be dropped into any wilderness. In turn I will spend good money on them. My latest acquisition is a Bark River Knives Bravo Strike Force. One hell of a knife imo that I would happily choose to go to hell and back after I shoved it in the devils heart and drank his blood. But it costs. If you don't want to pay for it than your not going to get it. Simple as that. I suggest you go by your price point and do some research on whatever knife catches your fancy before you buy it. It's not that you can't get great knife for far less money, that's for sure, but you normally get what you pay for.

Bark River Knives » Bravo Strike-Force


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## pheniox17

Camel923 said:


> What about a Damascus blade?


technically Damascus has a high carbon content just throwing it out there

choice, carbon for "main" blades, stainless for backups, little kits or fishing, and trade, more the $$ value...

but I pointed out here before, 2 categories of kit, lifetime and throwaway...so worth thinking some more

(PS I'm a 1 knife person, 1 multi tool, but I have redundant kits that have the odd knife included as part of that kit)


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## 2Tim215

pheniox17 said:


> technically Damascus has a high carbon content just throwing it out there


Actually, not always true. Damascus is made up of high carbon and a med carbon steel with nickel content. I actually make quite a bit of Damascus using plain old nickel plated mild steel for art work. Even a high carbon steel nickel plated will make Damascus, but the thing to remember is that carbon burns and to make Damascus you must take the steel up to welding heat which is yellow to white heat. At this heat you are burning carbon so depending on how many times the billet is welded you are losing carbon every time. It's barely noticeable amounts but do this with a med carbon billet and it's noticeable in the end product.


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## Moonshinedave

I prefer carbon steel.


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## pheniox17

2Tim215 said:


> Actually, not always true. Damascus is made up of high carbon and a med carbon steel with nickel content. I actually make quite a bit of Damascus using plain old nickel plated mild steel for art work. Even a high carbon steel nickel plated will make Damascus, but the thing to remember is that carbon burns and to make Damascus you must take the steel up to welding heat which is yellow to white heat. At this heat you are burning carbon so depending on how many times the billet is welded you are losing carbon every time. It's barely noticeable amounts but do this with a med carbon billet and it's noticeable in the end product.


thank you, so its hit and miss on carbon content,


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## Seneca

I prefer carbon steel. Yet I also have stainless steel knives, It seems the 1095 carbon steels are a happy medium between ease of sharpening and edge retention. A good 1095 chrome vanadium blade holds it edge well and sharpens easily. In a wet or humid environment stainless really shines. I really don't need a knife that holds it's edge for a long time yet takes a lot of effort to sharpen when it becomes dull. Give me a blade that holds it's edge reasonably well and sharpens quickly and I'm happy.


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## 2Tim215

Seneca said:


> I prefer carbon steel. Yet I also have stainless steel knives, It seems the 1095 carbon steels are a happy medium between ease of sharpening and edge retention. A good 1095 chrome vanadium blade holds it edge well and sharpens easily. In a wet or humid environment stainless really shines. I really don't need a knife that holds it's edge for a long time yet takes a lot of effort to sharpen when it becomes dull. Give me a blade that holds it's edge reasonably well and sharpens quickly and I'm happy.


Agreed. That's the happy medium I try and get in all my knives. Good edge retention whilst still able to field sharpen with relative ease, whether they be SS, high carbon or Damascus. I am not a fan of big choppers. I like a good sized back lock and if I want to chop then a well designed belt axe will do the job better.


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## PaulS

I "sharpen" my knives before and after every use. I use a ceramic rod and the edge is clean and very sharp. No matter how hard the blade is it can easily be sharpened with ceramic or diamond hones.


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## 1skrewsloose

Just add to what Paul S said, when I worked packing houses, always had a rough, smooth steel and a ceramic.


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## Smitty901

Depending on the hardness of the carbon it will hold and edge long but take long to sharpen. To hard and it can become brittle, to soft it don't hold an edge.
Good SS can last a life time but will need to be sharpened more often. Lot depends on use.


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## mack0369

This post got me thinking, I have a KA-BAR that I have used for 10+ years and multiple deployments. I pulled it out and looked at it, and it is a D2 steel knife. A pain to sharpen, but it holds an edge when sharpened even with a lot of abuse. Anyone know anything more about the composition of this and where I can find a nice folder made out of it, this thing has taken way more abuse than any other knife I have ever owned and still is in good shape

What Wikipedia says about D2 steel:
Grade Composition 
D2 1.5% C, 11.0–13.0% Cr; additionally 0.45% Mn, 0.030% P, 0.030% S, 1.0% V, 0.9% Mo, 0.30% Si 
D2 is very wear resistant but not as tough as lower alloyed steels. The mechanical properties of D2 are very sensitive to heat treatment. It is widely used for the production of shear blades, planer blades and industrial cutting tools; sometimes used for knife blades.


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## rickkyw1720pf

Camel923 said:


> What about a Damascus blade?


After reading about Damascus blades awhile back it sounds like they were making carbon steel blades, but at the time they didn't know actually why the blades were so much tougher. The process they used at the time was probably to extensive to make the steel in large qualities. The Japaneses did about the same thing with their samurai swords, the long process was adding carbon into the steel but they really didn't understand it at the time, they just knew the process made better swords.

They are not sure of the exact process in making a Damascus Blade but the do know how the Samurai sword were made. The iron that the blade was made of was hammered and flatten then put back in the coals until hot enough then it was folded and hammered again for many times. The constant putting the iron in the coals and hammering add carbon to the iron making a type of carbon steel.


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## 2Tim215

mack0369 said:


> This post got me thinking, I have a KA-BAR that I have used for 10+ years and multiple deployments. I pulled it out and looked at it, and it is a D2 steel knife. A pain to sharpen, but it holds an edge when sharpened even with a lot of abuse. Anyone know anything more about the composition of this and where I can find a nice folder made out of it, this thing has taken way more abuse than any other knife I have ever owned and still is in good shape


As far as I know D2 was one of the first stain resistant tool steels to come out and makes an excellent small to medium knife because of it's toughness and wear resistance but for larger blades no good. If I can guess I would say your Kbar is no more than 4-5 inches. D2 is tricky to HT though and is prone to chipping and cracking if not HT'd properly.



rickkyw1720pf said:


> After reading about Damascus blades awhile back it sounds like they were making carbon steel blades, but at the time they didn't know actually why the blades were so much tougher. The process they used at the time was probably to extensive to make the steel in large qualities. The Japaneses did about the same thing with their samurai swords, the long process was adding carbon into the steel but they really didn't understand it at the time, they just knew the process made better swords.
> 
> They are not sure of the exact process in making a Damascus Blade but the do know how the Samurai sword were made. The iron that the blade was made of was hammered and flatten then put back in the coals until hot enough then it was folded and hammered again for many times. The constant putting the iron in the coals and hammering add carbon to the iron making a type of carbon steel.


Damascus was originally called Wootz steel from India. They would take iron ore and smelt it in a furnace and the end result was a bloom. the ore would pass through all the charcoal thus picking up carbon and at the bottom would be a bloom of carbon steel. The hammering process and folding was to remove all the impurities and get to steel. The patterns that came out were only a by product of this process that were later manipulated by smiths. Damascus as we now do it is not the same - we take two differing steels and layer them then forge weld them together into one piece of steel thus forming layers that can be manipulated into patterns - it's properly known as pattern welded steel.


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## PaulS

There is a difference between Damascus steel, a Damascus blade and a pattern welded blade. Damascus steel was the first true high carbon steel and was made in the middle east. It was made by selecting the best iron one could get (and the source had a natural occurance of molybdenum and chromium as impurities) and melt the iron in a closed vessel with a particular charcoal. The clay vessel was broken open after the metal was melted and slow cooled over days. This yielded the first "high carbon" steel ever made.This was Damascus Steel. Today there are common alloys that approximate the same composition in steel. D2 is an air hardening steel that can be difficult to harden and then properly heat treat to keep the hardness but get rid of the brittleness. The "best" steel for blade making should be water or oil quenched and draw tempered to get a hard but flexible blade that will hold an edge well. I have used leaf springs and files to make "pattern welded" blades (they are synonymous with Damascus blades) and the two metals make a fine edged blade that is flexible and keeps an edge very well. I "fold" the bar between 10 and 100 times depending on whether I want to etch it or have a good working blade. The pattern you see on a Damascus blade is the welded joints as they appear after etched with a mild acid solution. Without etching you don't see any figure at all even though the blade was folded during its making. When you fold a bar 100 times you get 10,000 layers of the two or three layer stock. When properly polished the blade looks very much like stainless or chrome.


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## Prepadoodle

I've never been a fan of stainless steels for knife blades. To me, they are harder to sharpen and don't hold an edge as well as tool steels. I understand there are "new" stainless alloys that overcome these limitations, but I have yet to try one.

I don't really see a huge difference between the tool steels. As long as they are heat treated properly, any of them would probably work roughly the same. Yeah, there are slight differences in toughness, wear resistance, etc, but in practical application, these differences would be slight.

As far as rust.... I'm not a SEAL and don't spend a lot of time around salt water. If my blade gets wet, I dry it off and wipe it down with an oily rag. As far as I'm concerned, rust isn't an issue. Anyone who would let their tools get all rusty doesn't have the mindset for long term survivability anyway. <shrug>

Rumor has it that Popeye the sailor man had a steel tool, but it never rusted because he kept it in olive oil. 

(Sorry, couldn't resist)


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## Prepadoodle

Some of you might find this to be interesting...


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## thepeartree

And just to be on the practical side, try getting a spark with a flint-and-stainless steel...


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## 2Tim215

thepeartree said:


> And just to be on the practical side, try getting a spark with a flint-and-stainless steel...


So very true!!!


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## bigwheel

Well I was taught early in life not to be bringing no steenken knives to a gun fight...so I reserve them for cutting meat..cleaning fingernails etc. Best I have found for that purpose are Forschner/Victornox made by yumppin yimmines in Sweden. They seem to be made of a bit softer SS than the Kraut knives. They take and lose an edge pretty quick. Brought back to life by a few licks on the steel after boning out two pork butts. Real inexpensive compared to the yup knives. All the professional butchers use them. I got the full set for around a hundred bucks. That would be a 9" Chef's knife..the 6" curved boner (no snickering please..the 12" Granton slicer..the pairing knife and sharpening steel. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=jus...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb


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## jro1

In my experience, the carbon blade keeps the edge, however it has barely any give to it, and I have found that the blade will break easier over the stainless blade, which will have more flex to it before it breaks. just my .02


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## thepeartree

alterego said:


> Carbon Steel For Me. Stainless Will Not Keep An Edge.


Eah, I see high carbon and high chrome. Should cheat rust to some extent.



mack0369 said:


> This post got me thinking, I have a KA-BAR that I have used for 10+ years and multiple deployments. I pulled it out and looked at it, and it is a D2 steel knife. A pain to sharpen, but it holds an edge when sharpened even with a lot of abuse. Anyone know anything more about the composition of this and where I can find a nice folder made out of it, this thing has taken way more abuse than any other knife I have ever owned and still is in good shape
> 
> What Wikipedia says about D2 steel:
> Grade Composition
> D2 1.5% C, 11.0-13.0% Cr; additionally 0.45% Mn, 0.030% P, 0.030% S, 1.0% V, 0.9% Mo, 0.30% Si
> D2 is very wear resistant but not as tough as lower alloyed steels. The mechanical properties of D2 are very sensitive to heat treatment. It is widely used for the production of shear blades, planer blades and industrial cutting tools; sometimes used for knife blades.


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## Inor

I am a big fan of carbon steel, not stainless steel for all of my cutting tools. I say this primarily because once I get a feel for a tool, whether a knife or chisel, I almost always reshape the edge to fit my working style. For knives, that means a compound angle at the edge, for bench chisels that means 100% absolutely flat, turning chisels must have a slightly concave facet on the edge. It all depends on what I am using the tool for. Carbon steel is much easier to reshape for a specific purpose than stainless in my arrogant opinion.


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## thepeartree

bigwheel said:


> Well I was taught early in life not to be bringing no steenken knives to a gun fight...so I reserve them for cutting meat..cleaning fingernails etc. Best I have found for that purpose are Forschner/Victornox made by yumppin yimmines in Sweden. They seem to be made of a bit softer SS than the Kraut knives. They take and lose an edge pretty quick. Brought back to life by a few licks on the steel after boning out two pork butts. Real inexpensive compared to the yup knives. All the professional butchers use them. I got the full set for around a hundred bucks. That would be a 9" Chef's knife..the 6" curved boner (no snickering please..the 12" Granton slicer..the pairing knife and sharpening steel.
> https://www.google.com/search?q=jus...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb


If that's all they cost, they're not professional-quality knives.


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## Awakened_Warrior

Great thread. Tim, you explained in a way I could get what you were saying. I have little insights about steel, knife materials and HT so its refreshing to read what you are saying about the differences. 
I would go with a Carbon blade myself, keep a good edge and easy to sharpen for a beginner. I keep 4 blades in my kit, different sizes, for hacking, meat cutting, wood, and random uses.


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## Gunner's Mate

D2 tool steel is an awesome steel for blades so is S30V there both harder than a woodpecker's lips, excellent corrision resistance and edge retention, sharpening will have to be done with diamond stones.


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## Gunner's Mate

17-7 PH	Good corrosion resistance, excellent for water sports applications. This alloy is a chromium-nickel-aluminum precipitation hardening stainless steel with good edge retention. Great corrosion resistance generally means a high chromium content, and this means knives made with this steel will be a little harder to sharpen than blades with a lower chromium content.	Rockwell Hardness 54-56

154 CM	Originally designed for jet engine fan blades, it is the precursor to the Japanese made ATS-34. In recent years, this steel has made a resurgence in the knife industry, offering good blade toughness, edge holding capability and corrosion resistance. Fairly easy to resharpen.	Rockwell Hardness 58-62

420	A hard, strong blade steel. This stainless steel is commonly used in knife blades, and offers good corrosion resistance at a low cost. Decent edge holding capabilities and fairly easy to resharpen, this steel is a good balance of the most desirable traits for knife steel.	Rockwell Hardness 49-53

420 HC	A high carbon version of 420 steel, this steel combines the excellent wear resistance of high carbon alloys with the corrosion resistance of chromium stainless steels. The high carbon content makes this steel harder to resharpen, but the tradeoff is better edge holding properties.	Rockwell Hardness 58

440 A	A high carbon stainless steel, used in many production knives. A good balance of edge retention, easy resharpening and corrosion resistance.	Rockwell Hardness 55-57

440 C	A high chromium stainless steel which exibits an excellent balance of hardness and corrosion resistance. This steel takes a nice edge, and is fairly easy to sharpen even for a novice.	Rockwell Hardness 58-60

1095	This is a plain carbon steel, which means it has low resistance to corrosion, and low to medium edge retention. The benefit of this steel is it's easy to sharpen, will take an extremely sharp edge and is generally available at a low cost.	Rockwell Hardness 56-58

5150	A medium carbon, low alloy steel that hardens well. This steel is ideally suited to blades with a very thick cross-section such as tomahawks and axes. Extremely tough and impact resistant, this steel is most often used on blades which are hafted and/or thrown. Rockwell Hardness 55-60

ATS-34	A very high carbon, chromium stainless steel with additional amounts of molybdenum. This steel has good edge holding properties and high corossion resistance, but is more difficult to resharpen than lower chromium steels.	Rockwell Hardness 60-61

AUS 6A	A medium to high carbon stainless steel, this steel holds a good edge and is particularly well suited for heavy, long blades that are subjected to a lot of stress while chopping and hacking. It has good edge retention, and is fairly easy to resharpen with decent corrosion resistance.	Rockwell Hardness 55-57

AUS 8	A Japanese stainless steel, with surperb toughness and good edge holding capabilities. This steel is fairly easy to sharpen and generally low cost with great corrosion resistance.	Rockwell Hardness 57-58

AUS 8A	A high carbon, low chromium stainless steel which has proven itself to be the ultimate compromise between toughness and strength, edge holding and resistance to corrosion.	Rockwell Hardness 57-59

BG-42	A high quality, bearing grade alloy with significantly increased amounts of carbon and molybdenum content plus vanadium for improved edge retention and strength. Easy to sharpen, with decent corrosion resistance.	Rockwell Hardness 61-62

Carbon V®	This low alloy, cutlery grade steel is superior to most other steels due to its chemistry. Decent corossion resistance with superior edge retention make this a premium steel for knife blades. This steel is exceptionally tough, and therefore harder to sharpen than most stainless steels.	Rockwell Hardness 59

CPM S30V®	This American made and engineered steel was created especially for the knife industry. It is a powder made steel with uniform structure and great corrosion resistance. Excellent edge retention and first rate toughness make this steel one of the best all-around knife steels, striking a balance between corrosion resistance, edge retention and sharpenability.	Rockwell Hardness 58-60

D2	This air hardened tool steel is sometimes called a "semi-stainless" steel, because it contains 12% chromium. It offers decent corrosion resistance with exceptional edge retention. It is harder to sharpen than most, but can be finished to a high-polish shine.	Rockwell Hardness 59-60

Damascus	This steel is made from dissimilar steels folded or fused together with heat. It is often acid etched, which brings out the different steels in a striped pattern. Excellent toughness and edge holding capabilities make it a great blade, but the cost of production is high. Damascus is most often used in special applications like decorative blades.	Layers vary in Rockwell Hardness 53-62

M2	This high-speed, tool grade steel is used primarily in cutting tools in industrial applications. This is metal used to cut metal. With excellent strength, enduring toughness and tremendous wear resistance, this is some of the toughest steel used to make knife blades. The tradeoff for all this toughness is that this steel is hard to sharpen, and it is highly susceptable to corrosion. All blades made from this steel will have a corrosion resistant coating applied, to give good corrosion resistance with such a tough steel.	Rockwell Hardness 62

N690	An Austrian made stainless steel, it is comparable to 440C in performance. It offers good edge holding qualities with excellent corrosion resistance, and fairly easy sharpening. Rockwell Hardness	58-60

S30V	This steel contains carbon along with high amounts of chromium, molybdenum and vanadium. This steel is double tempered for hardness and edge retention.It has excellent corrosion resistance, but is slightly more difficult to sharpen.	Rockwell Hardness 59.5-61

Sandvik 12C27	This stainless steel is made in Sweden. It is generally known as a premium steel for knife blades, offering a good balance of corrosion resistance, sharpenability and edge retention.	Rockwell Hardness 57-59

San Mai III	San Mai means "three layers". It is a term used when talking about traditional Japanese swords and daggers. The laminated construction is important because it allows the blade maker to combine different grades of steel in a single blade. A high carbon center layer provides the strength and edge holding qualities, while the outer layers are lower carbon steels, providing flexibility.	Rockwell Hardness Center layer= 59 Outer layers= 57

X-15 T.N	Developed for the aircraft industry for jet ball bearings, and used in the medical industry for scalpels, this steel resists rust in the worst of conditions while maintaining ample edge retention. Offering an easy to maintain edge and excellent corrosion resistance, this steel is ideal in knives used for watersports.	Rockwell Hardness 56-58


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## Medic33

well for 3 bucks I don't think it matters much.
for a longer blade say 4 or more inches carbon (or laminated look at mora knives) is a better choice stainless is hard but brittle and can break or chip easier than carbon like D2 tool steel.


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