# Denver: Jessica hernandez shot / 16



## oddapple

Prosecutors promise probe of police killing of teen

Girl shot in Denver over stealing a car. Apparently she hit a cop car and injured him before one of them shot her.
Protest beginning.....though facts still not all out (of course)


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## Chipper

Assault a cop with a deadly weapon and people are surprised someone got shot?? Really??


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## Slippy

OK, let me get this straight...little Jessica Hernandez steals a car, uses the car as a deadly weapon and hits an officer, gets shot by officer in self defense...and the people want charges filed against the officer? Bizzaro world...


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## HuntingHawk

So, she is in a stolen car & using it as weapon against the officers. If they hadn't shot her would she have injured innocent bystanders with the vehicle? Sure sounds like the officers did the right thing. Could they have disabled the vehicle by shooting out the tires? Maybe. but then too, they couldn't know if she was armed.


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## Diver

Nothing in the story indicates that hitting the officer was deliberate. This is one where I would love to see a film. Does it look deliberate, or does it look like she had her foot slip off the brake? She's 17. How good a driver can she possibly be?


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## Ripon

I haven't clicked on a link yet. I haven't ready anything that wasn't posted in this forum about it, and from that I can tell I need to take a position because there isn't enough information from which to decide. That said I can complain about those who would choose to protest for my guess is they don't have much more to go on - then I do.


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## paraquack

Gee, I didn't mean for the gun to go off and shoot the officer.
Gee, I didn't mean to drive the car and hit the officer.
What's the difference. She was a felon, was attempting to flee the scene, hit the officer in her attempt to flee, committing a second felony. So what should they do, chase the car until she wrecks and kills everybody on board. 
Shooting out the tires does not disable a car. We see it all the time on TV reality chases. Usually the car wrecks and/or kills somebody.


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## PatriotFlamethrower

Hernandez? Maybe somebody should check her IMMIGRATION STATUS?

Oh, wait, Obama and Holder won't allow that sort of thing anymore.

Maybe Miss Hernandez doesn't speak English and doesn't know how to drive a motor vehicle?

Hernandez will be cut loose, Holder will file a federal lawsuit against the Denver police, and Hernandez' 50 or 60 Mexican relatives will be invited to live in the USA. Case closed.


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## Diver

paraquack said:


> Gee, I didn't mean for the gun to go off and shoot the officer.
> Gee, I didn't mean to drive the car and hit the officer.
> What's the difference. She was a felon, was attempting to flee the scene, hit the officer in her attempt to flee, committing a second felony. So what should they do, chase the car until she wrecks and kills everybody on board.
> Shooting out the tires does not disable a car. We see it all the time on TV reality chases. Usually the car wrecks and/or kills somebody.


First, she wasn't a felon. She was a suspect. There is a huge difference. Second, it does make a huge difference whether the action was deliberate or an accident. Police do not usually go to the scene of an accident and shoot whoever was responsible. Third, nothing in the article says she was attempting to flee the scene. One might make that judgment if they could see a film, but even then it would be an opinion. Since the suspect is dead, we'll never know whether she was intending to do anything.

As for wrecking and "killing everybody" it isn't clear whether there was a chase, or whether a chase would have occurred.

I suspect the police in this case will be exonerated, but you're just assuming the police could not have ended this in a less deadly way. That's not clear at all from the little we know. Maybe they could have done better, or maybe this was the necessary response.


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## Diver

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> Hernandez? Maybe somebody should check her IMMIGRATION STATUS?
> 
> Oh, wait, Obama and Holder won't allow that sort of thing anymore.
> 
> Maybe Miss Hernandez doesn't speak English and doesn't know how to drive a motor vehicle?
> 
> Hernandez will be cut loose, Holder will file a federal lawsuit against the Denver police, and Hernandez' 50 or 60 Mexican relatives will be invited to live in the USA. Case closed.


As I understand it Hernandez is dead. Cutting her loose is not an option. Nothing in the article indicates that immigration status is an issue. You're jumping to conclusions just to have an inflammatory argument.


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## Sasquatch

Diver said:


> As I understand it Hernandez is dead. Cutting her loose is not an option. Nothing in the article indicates that immigration status is an issue. You're jumping to conclusions just to have an inflammatory argument.


Although I agree with you I think Patriot, along with a lot of other people, are tired of seeing this same type of thing happen. You are right and we shouldn't jump to conclusions but I see why people do.


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## 6811

Diver said:


> Nothing in the story indicates that hitting the officer was deliberate. This is one where I would love to see a film. Does it look deliberate, or does it look like she had her foot slip off the brake? She's 17. How good a driver can she possibly be?


really? she had her foot slip off the brake. no... just tell every one what really happened DIVER. the cops followed poor Jessica and set her up. the cops told poor Jessica, while no one is looking of course, that they were going to give her a nice car for her and her family to use. Unknown to Jessica, the cops tampered with the mechanical functions of the car causing her to lose control of the car which appeared to be heading towards the cops, giving them a reason to shoot this poor innocent girl. shooting teenage girls is a lifelong achievement for us cops you know. we all just wait for that opportunity. now, what shall we do with this matter. I know... we should line up all the cops in world and shoot each one of them in the head. this way no one will bother Diver anymore. this way diver wont have to be scared anymore of ALL those bad police.


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## Diver

Sasquatch said:


> Although I agree with you I think Patriot, along with a lot of other people, are tired of seeing this same type of thing happen. You are right and we shouldn't jump to conclusions but I see why people do.


Tired of what? Every one of these questionable shootings by the police seems to wind up with the cop walking. If you support the police what's the problem?


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## jimb1972

Jessica is not a common name for an illegal Mexican immigrant, my guess is she is at least second generation. Have to see how it plays out if the cops acted in a reasonable manner, not enough info to even guess now.


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## 6811

Diver said:


> Tired of what? Every one of these questionable shootings by the police seems to wind up with the cop walking. If you support the police what's the problem?


do you have a problem with a police officer being found not guilty if he didn't do anything wrong? based on most of your post it seems that every police incident you feel that they were always wrong. I'm not saying that they are all perfect, no. and yes cops have committed crimes and abused their authority but not all of them do that.

It is good and it is important to question authority, but you need to listen to the facts and be reasonable before you judge. this incident just happened a short time ago and you have already formed a theory on how the police violated this girl. you really sound and think like al Sharpton.


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## Slippy

Just another excuse to steal some tennis shoes, tv's, throw rocks and burn something down...


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## Diver

jimb1972 said:


> Jessica is not a common name for an illegal Mexican immigrant, my guess is she is at least second generation. Have to see how it plays out if the cops acted in a reasonable manner, not enough info to even guess now.


There is nothing in the story to indicate that this has anything to do with immigration or racial discrimination.

What we have is a teenager who was alledgedly driving a stolen car. No details on how the car was stolen or if this girl is supposed to be the one who stole it, or even any certainty that this was actually the stolen car or a similar car to what the police were seeking. Cars today are a lot more difficult to steal than they used to be. We aren't even told what kind of car this was. When she hit the cop did she manage to get up to some speed to hit him or did the car move a foot?

She must have stopped the car for the officers to be out of their cars, so the idea of her fleeing seems inconsistent. The article says they are doing a toxicology study on the body. Colorado has legalized pot. Was the girl in control of her faculties? Did she have any prior record?

As for the cops who fired, what is their record of complaints, violence, prior shootings, disciplinary actions? What were they actually told about the car they were seeking? Did they know the car was being driven by a teenage girl? What instructions did they give the driver? Did they follow proper protocol? One story I saw indicated they handcuffed the dead body. Is that proper? How long did it take them to call for an ambulance?

Who were the passengers in the car? What are they saying? Were any of them hurt? Were any of them arrested? Were there other witnesses and what are they saying?

This story is so incomplete about the only thing that seems certain is the girl was shot to death.


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## SARGE7402

Slippy said:


> OK, let me get this straight...little Jessica Hernandez steals a car, uses the car as a deadly weapon and hits an officer, gets shot by officer in self defense...and the people want charges filed against the officer? Bizzaro world...


Not a single one of you understand. I get so frustrated trying to get you stupid folks to understand. There has to be two separate and distinct justice systems. One in which the downtroddened folks of color (Brown or Black) can do what ever they wish, with no consequences what soever and one for the rest of us based on that age old tried and true system of lynching who ever we feel like lynching and to he double hockey sticks with the facts


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## SARGE7402

Diver said:


> Nothing in the story indicates that hitting the officer was deliberate. This is one where I would love to see a film. Does it look deliberate, or does it look like she had her foot slip off the brake? She's 17. How good a driver can she possibly be?


At least you're consistent with you hatred for the police


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## Slippy

SARGE7402 said:


> Not a single one of you understand. I get so frustrated trying to get you stupid folks to understand. There has to be two separate and distinct justice systems. One in which the downtroddened folks of color (Brown or Black) can do what ever they wish, with no consequences what soever and one for the rest of us based on that age old tried and true system of lynching who ever we feel like lynching and to he double hockey sticks with the facts


Whatever allows them to steal tennis shoes, tv's, throw rocks and burn other people's property down...


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## Diver

SARGE7402 said:


> At least you're consistent with you hatred for the police


Actually, the police may be totally correct in this case. However, the story so far doesn't give you enough information to come to that conclusion.


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## 6811

QUOTE=Diver;249953]Actually, the police may be totally correct in this case. [/QUOTE]

ok ..... who are you and what did you do to DIVER.... folks this is an impostor pretending to be diver.


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## SARGE7402

Diver said:


> There is nothing in the story to indicate that this has anything to do with immigration or racial discrimination.
> 
> What we have is a teenager who was alledgedly driving a stolen car. No details on how the car was stolen or if this girl is supposed to be the one who stole it, or even any certainty that this was actually the stolen car or a similar car to what the police were seeking. Cars today are a lot more difficult to steal than they used to be. We aren't even told what kind of car this was. When she hit the cop did she manage to get up to some speed to hit him or did the car move a foot?
> 
> She must have stopped the car for the officers to be out of their cars, so the idea of her fleeing seems inconsistent. The article says they are doing a toxicology study on the body. Colorado has legalized pot. Was the girl in control of her faculties? Did she have any prior record?
> 
> As for the cops who fired, what is their record of complaints, violence, prior shootings, disciplinary actions? What were they actually told about the car they were seeking? Did they know the car was being driven by a teenage girl? What instructions did they give the driver? Did they follow proper protocol? One story I saw indicated they handcuffed the dead body. Is that proper? How long did it take them to call for an ambulance?
> 
> Who were the passengers in the car? What are they saying? Were any of them hurt? Were any of them arrested? Were there other witnesses and what are they saying?
> 
> This story is so incomplete about the only thing that seems certain is the girl was shot to death.


Trust me once the perp is down - shot or otherwise - it is standard to cuff them. Cops don't check a pulse until after the scene is secure.

MH mr diver has a deep seated issue with all cops allegedly stemming from an episode in his life where he feels that he was unfairly treated by the cops on the scene. It also seems that he's transferred this deep emotional feeling to all cops regardless who they are or what they've ever done.

I wouldn't work myself up over MD it's something that he's going to either get over or not.


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## Mish

Ok, lesson of the day...
Do not steal cars
Do not sit in cars in dark alleys
Do not hit Poh Pohs with stolen car
Do not die
Do eat bacon


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## Diver

mhans827 said:


> QUOTE=Diver;249953]Actually, the police may be totally correct in this case.


ok ..... who are you and what did you do to DIVER.... folks this is an impostor pretending to be diver.[/QUOTE]

I've got to quit hitting that "View Post" button. The threads go so much better when I don't do that.

Just to reassure you Open Water, Advanced Open Water, Rescue Diver (including O2 provider), Dry Suit, Nitrox, Decompression Diver, Solo Diver, Mixed Gas Fill Station Certified and Tank Inspection certified. I probably forgot a few, but that's enough.


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## Diver

SARGE7402 said:


> Trust me once the perp is down - shot or otherwise - it is standard to cuff them. Cops don't check a pulse until after the scene is secure.
> 
> MH mr diver has a deep seated issue with all cops allegedly stemming from an episode in his life where he feels that he was unfairly treated by the cops on the scene. It also seems that he's transferred this deep emotional feeling to all cops regardless who they are or what they've ever done.
> 
> I wouldn't work myself up over MD it's something that he's going to either get over or not.


The issue you refer to was related by me, so it has been fully disclosed. Yes I have my own bias and it isn't blind trust in cops like yourself. Anybody who hasn't figured that out is too slow to worry about.

Thank you for confirming that it standard protocol to handcuff dead bodies of underage girls who weren't armed in the first place. Strikes me as a bit perverted.


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## 6811

Diver said:


> ok ..... who are you and what did you do to DIVER.... folks this is an impostor pretending to be diver.


I've got to quit hitting that "View Post" button. The threads go so much better when I don't do that.

Just to reassure you Open Water, Advanced Open Water, Rescue Diver (including O2 provider), Dry Suit, Nitrox, Decompression Diver, Solo Diver, Mixed Gas Fill Station Certified and Tank Inspection certified. I probably forgot a few, but that's enough.[/QUOTE]

I see you like to collect C cards... I got a few of them too, after I completed Dive master I stopped giving away my money to the certifying agencies.

by the way watch out for those public safety divers, some of them wear badges. they are not all firefighters.


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## Diver

mhans827 said:


> I've got to quit hitting that "View Post" button. The threads go so much better when I don't do that.
> 
> Just to reassure you Open Water, Advanced Open Water, Rescue Diver (including O2 provider), Dry Suit, Nitrox, Decompression Diver, Solo Diver, Mixed Gas Fill Station Certified and Tank Inspection certified. I probably forgot a few, but that's enough.


I see you like to collect C cards... I got a few of them too, after I completed Dive master I stopped giving away my money to the certifying agencies.

by the way watch out for those public safety divers, some of them wear badges. they are not all firefighters.[/QUOTE]

They aren't all good divers either. Based on your location you should know that you need most of that list to be safe in Wreck Valley.


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## 6811

They aren't all good divers either.[/QUOTE]

I agree, its expensive and the training is not all that. you get to use some cool gear, that's about it.


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## Slippy

(Slippy starts to sing a child's song...que the music...)

Diver and MHans sitting in a tree KAY I ESS ESS I EN GEE...

My work here is done. :icon_smile:


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## 6811

Slippy said:


> (Slippy starts to sing a child's song...que the music...)
> 
> Diver and MHans sitting in a tree KAY I ESS ESS I EN GEE...
> 
> My work here is done. :icon_smile:


hey, the man said something that I thought was right, so I had to agree. :icon_smile: you never know, given a chance and opportunity we could be dive buddies. dive a wreck or go cave diving...


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## paraquack

Diver said:


> First, she wasn't a felon. She was a suspect. There is a huge difference. Second, it does make a huge difference whether the action was deliberate or an accident. Police do not usually go to the scene of an accident and shoot whoever was responsible. Third, nothing in the article says she was attempting to flee the scene. One might make that judgment if they could see a film, but even then it would be an opinion. Since the suspect is dead, we'll never know whether she was intending to do anything.
> 
> As for wrecking and "killing everybody" it isn't clear whether there was a chase, or whether a chase would have occurred.
> 
> I suspect the police in this case will be exonerated, but you're just assuming the police could not have ended this in a less deadly way. That's not clear at all from the little we know. Maybe they could have done better, or maybe this was the necessary response.


Yes, you are absolutely correct. I am assuming that she was behind the wheel of a stolen car that was driven by her when it struck an officer and broke his leg. It is entirely possible that she was just attempting to park the vehicle in a manner that would assist the officer in such a way that they would be able to arrest her for for being inside and operating a stolen vehicle. I suppose it is possible that she probably didn't notice the officer standing in front of her in her hurry to park the vehicle.

Let's just say that we disagree in what she was doing and why she did it and that she made a mistake that broke the officer leg and that the car shouldn't be considered a 3000 pound projectile that was aimed at the officer and in striking him made her a felon. Everything is an assumption and I could and may very well be wrong about everything I assumed. But somehow, I doubt it. Fortunately since I don't live up there, I won't be on any jury. I guess all my years as a paramedic picking up the pieces has jaded me to the ninth degree. I stand corrected in my jaded assumption. Thank you for pointing out my mistake in giving the girl the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty.


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## keith9365

HuntingHawk said:


> So, she is in a stolen car & using it as weapon against the officers. If they hadn't shot her would she have injured innocent bystanders with the vehicle? Sure sounds like the officers did the right thing. Could they have disabled the vehicle by shooting out the tires? Maybe. but then too, they couldn't know if she was armed.


OK, cop shoots at tire. Cop misses tire. Bullet strikes road at angle. Bullet ricochets at angle and kills innocent bystander. Cops shoot to stop threat period. That is center of mass.


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## 6811

this issue is going to be complicated. cops are not normally allowed to shoot to "disable" a car, they just dont have the appropriate weapon or fire power to stop a car effectively. Also, cops are discouraged in shooting a driver of a vehicle in motion for the reason that when the driver is incapacitated, the vehicle is now an out of control 1/4 ton projectile. 

Are cops allowed to shoot at a vehicle or its driver... yes... but you better be able to articulate that shooting the vehicle or the driver is your last ditch effort to save your life or others and there are no other way to avoid certain death or dismemberment without firing the shot/shots. 

Shooting at a vehicle or its driver is one of the hardest police involved shooting to justify.

regarding shooting the tire or the radiator to stop a car, you can forget that. that only works in hollywood and if that is the reason why you shot at a car, dont even bother getting a lawyer. Save your money and just start looking for a new job, preferably non LE type of work.


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## Sasquatch

Diver said:


> Tired of what? Every one of these questionable shootings by the police seems to wind up with the cop walking. If you support the police what's the problem?


Not sure what you are asking. I don't support the police or the teen, I support law abiding people (whether in street clothes or a uniform). Yes all of the facts are not in yet but a link in the same story posted does give some answers...

"_The officers ran the car's license plate and *discovered the vehicle had been reported stolen*. One of the officers got out of the vehicle and approached the car. At that point, the teen driving the car *drove into one of the police officers, fracturing his leg*._"

Doesn't seem to me a foot slipping off the brake would fracture his leg. Also there were four other people in the car that were taken into custody. None of them received gunshot wounds. So the shots that were fired were well placed rounds at the threat and nothing more than the threat. Again, all of the facts aren't in and the LEO's could be at fault. If they are I hope the get punished to the full extent of the law.

What I meant by "people are getting tired of it" was something like this happening and immediately the families are on the front lawn of the DA's office ready to lynch the officers. The low lifes in society have learned if the scream loud enough, act intimidating and yell obscenities (like these people did at the press conference) they usually get their way. People are tired of that, including me.


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## PatriotFlamethrower

Diver said:


> As I understand it Hernandez is dead. Cutting her loose is not an option. Nothing in the article indicates that immigration status is an issue. You're jumping to conclusions just to have an inflammatory argument.


And there is nothing in the article indicating that she was NOT an illegal alien, NOT a criminal, and NOT impaired.

You are jumping to conclusions about the law enforcement people. by portraying them as trigger-happy gunslingers who randomly shoot people at traffic accident scenes. What could be more RIDICULOUS than that conclusion?


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## shootbrownelk

Diver said:


> Nothing in the story indicates that hitting the officer was deliberate. This is one where I would love to see a film. Does it look deliberate, or does it look like she had her foot slip off the brake? She's 17. How good a driver can she possibly be?


 I don't know how good of a driver she could be, but she wasn't much of a car thief.


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## shootbrownelk

Sasquatch said:


> Although I agree with you I think Patriot, along with a lot of other people, are tired of seeing this same type of thing happen. You are right and we shouldn't jump to conclusions but I see why people do.


 Al Sharpton is probably organizing the protests right now....Oh wait....she's not black? Never mind. They're probably getting the T-shirts printed-up for the protests...." Don't SHOOT! I can't STEER!".


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## keith9365

Slippy said:


> Just another excuse to steal some tennis shoes, tv's, throw rocks and burn something down...


Nothing says "I be's oppressed" like looting a liquor store.


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## oddapple

Prosecutors Promise Thorough Probe of Police Killing of Teen - ABC News

Update that is mixed. They say she wrecked because she was shot, won't say what the earlier evenings activities were and have not charged the others who "did not know the car was stolen" so we know they were not white. They also seem to be avoiding true status so probably illegal or anchor baby, because if they could rag true citizen status they would I'd think? 
But all that is new is witness accounts


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## Diver

Sasquatch said:


> Not sure what you are asking. I don't support the police or the teen, I support law abiding people (whether in street clothes or a uniform). Yes all of the facts are not in yet but a link in the same story posted does give some answers...
> 
> "_The officers ran the car's license plate and *discovered the vehicle had been reported stolen*. One of the officers got out of the vehicle and approached the car. At that point, the teen driving the car *drove into one of the police officers, fracturing his leg*._"
> 
> Doesn't seem to me a foot slipping off the brake would fracture his leg. Also there were four other people in the car that were taken into custody. None of them received gunshot wounds. So the shots that were fired were well placed rounds at the threat and nothing more than the threat. Again, all of the facts aren't in and the LEO's could be at fault. If they are I hope the get punished to the full extent of the law.
> 
> What I meant by "people are getting tired of it" was something like this happening and immediately the families are on the front lawn of the DA's office ready to lynch the officers. The low lifes in society have learned if the scream loud enough, act intimidating and yell obscenities (like these people did at the press conference) they usually get their way. People are tired of that, including me.


To suggest people are getting their way when the cops always walk is totally fallacious. To stop folks from protesting when their unarmed family members are gunned down all you have to do is eliminate the First Amendment.


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## Sasquatch

Diver said:


> To suggest people are getting their way when the cops always walk is totally fallacious. To stop folks from protesting when their unarmed family members are gunned down all you have to do is eliminate the First Amendment.


"Always" is a funny word. It's funny how it gets used to help further your point. 1. Cops don't ALWAYS walk. If you have information to prove me wrong I'd like to see it. 2. I never said folks should be stopped from protesting. What I did say is people jumping to conclusions before they have the facts and screaming obscenities at a press conference. Once the police give their side those people have every right to protest if they don't agree. I also said if there is any wrong doing on the part of the cops they should be punished to the full extent of the law. I can tell by all your replies you are of the mind set that cops are just going around willy-nilly killing who ever they feel like. That mind set is just as dsngerous as the one that thinks because she was a hispanic kid she must've done something to deserve being shot.


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## Slippy

Anymore news on the little illegal chick who had multiple children from many black and brown males and supported her little future thieves and welfare recipients with my tax dollars who stole a car and used it to assault/batter a police officer in Denver?:distracted:


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## paraquack

Diver said:


> To suggest people are getting their way when the cops always walk is totally fallacious. To stop folks from protesting when their unarmed family members are gunned down all you have to do is eliminate the First Amendment.


I have no problem with the family or anyone else "protesting". Unfortunately "protesting" seems to be nothing more than an excuse to loot and burn innocent folks buildings. Maybe what should have been done by he parents was to tell the young woman, "don't go out and steal others people's stuff, you might come to a bad end." Sorry, while I don't know what kind of a family life she had, I tend to wonder if she had any real moral upbringing. 
You keep talking about the 1st amendment. What about a the 7th commandment, it came a whole lot earlier and served most of the world well for thousands of years.


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## Slippy

Slippy whistles loudly to get everyone's attention then climbs slowly on the soapbox;

Hear Ye, Hear Ye...Here's what's most likely gonna go down;

The media will portray her as being younger, prettier, nicer than she really is. They will write articles about how she had plans to go to college or to the Armed Forces. Pictures of her will be from her pre-adolescent days and she will be wearing cute little t-shirts and such. Her family and friends from the community will rally around her and hold candle light vigils and make signs saying "Hispanic Girls Lives Matter" and "The Cops hate Hispancs"

The investigation will quickly uncover some eyewitness whose story will be different than the police report. More people will protest and some retards will steal tennis shoes and tv's. Depending on how cold the weather is and if the hispanic community can get some activists to attend will determine how bad it gets.

Then the facts will come out and we will see the truth. And the truth will be that some little thief thought she could get away with committing a crime/crimes and got herself shot. End of story, good riddance Ms Hernandez.

That's all 

Slippy:icon_smile:


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## 6811

oddapple said:


> Prosecutors Promise Thorough Probe of Police Killing of Teen - ABC News
> 
> Update that is mixed. They say she wrecked because she was shot


this is why we avoid shooting at cars or the drivers of vehicle in motion....


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## Diver

Sasquatch said:


> "Always" is a funny word. It's funny how it gets used to help further your point. 1. Cops don't ALWAYS walk. If you have information to prove me wrong I'd like to see it. 2. I never said folks should be stopped from protesting. What I did say is people jumping to conclusions before they have the facts and screaming obscenities at a press conference. Once the police give their side those people have every right to protest if they don't agree. I also said if there is any wrong doing on the part of the cops they should be punished to the full extent of the law. I can tell by all your replies you are of the mind set that cops are just going around willy-nilly killing who ever they feel like. That mind set is just as dsngerous as the one that thinks because she was a hispanic kid she must've done something to deserve being shot.


The occasions on which LEOS go to jail for killing someone are about as common as unicorns. Certainly none of the recent killings of unarmed people has resulted in an LEO conviction. I'll be pleased to back off on the "always" comment if you can provide a few examples of LEO'S convicted for violent acts over the past few years.


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## 6811

Diver said:


> To suggest people are getting their way when the cops always walk is totally fallacious. To stop folks from protesting when their unarmed family members are gunned down all you have to do is eliminate the First Amendment.


in the country where I grew up, there is no true 1A or freedom of speech. you speak against the govt, you die... very simple.

gotta love the US of A for our bill of rights. we the people cannot keep quiet, we need to question authority to make sure what they do is lawful. Jessica's family is well with in their rights to question all the facts presented to them to make sure everything is in order. if the police did them wrong, by all means protest.

Now for all of us law abiding people who value our 1A rights, we need to stand up and protect our 1A rights. we need to fight these so called protesters who claim they are peaceful, when all they do is create chaos. in my jurisdiction there were several protest regarding ferguson (no, I'm not anywhere near ferguson but there was a protest anyway). the cops cleared the area where the protesters set up and gave them all the room, plus police protection while they protested. sidewalks where cleared and street intersections were cleared so that they could cross the streets safely. what did the "peaceful protesters" do, instead of doing the right thing, they all ran in the middle of the street to stop cars like they were going to car jack them. basically they were not satisfied with just protesting, what they wanted is to cause trouble, to inconvenience other people so that riots could be started. if people keep doing that, I would not be surprised if the govt suspended 1A. free speech does not mean you can say or do whatever you want.


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## Diver

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> And there is nothing in the article indicating that she was NOT an illegal alien, NOT a criminal, and NOT impaired.
> 
> You are jumping to conclusions about the law enforcement people. by portraying them as trigger-happy gunslingers who randomly shoot people at traffic accident scenes. What could be more RIDICULOUS than that conclusion?


I have done nothing of the sort. I think this case is likely to clear the cops, but I also think that any time someone winds up dead at the hands of cops it should be investigated.


----------



## Diver

Sasquatch said:


> "Always" is a funny word. It's funny how it gets used to help further your point. 1. Cops don't ALWAYS walk. If you have information to prove me wrong I'd like to see it. 2. I never said folks should be stopped from protesting. What I did say is people jumping to conclusions before they have the facts and screaming obscenities at a press conference. Once the police give their side those people have every right to protest if they don't agree. I also said if there is any wrong doing on the part of the cops they should be punished to the full extent of the law. I can tell by all your replies you are of the mind set that cops are just going around willy-nilly killing who ever they feel like. That mind set is just as dsngerous as the one that thinks because she was a hispanic kid she must've done something to deserve being shot.


I am under the impression that the law enforcement community cares so little about our lives that they don't even collect statistics on how many people they kill each year. Why should I just trust them to do the right thing?


----------



## Diver

shootbrownelk said:


> I don't know how good of a driver she could be, but she wasn't much of a car thief.


We still don't know if she stole the car. The accusation is she was at the wheel of a stolen car. Did one of the other occupants steal it? Was she aware it was stolen? Are the cops mistaken about the car being stolen?


----------



## 6811

Diver said:


> The occasions on which LEOS go to jail for killing someone are about as common as unicorns. Certainly none of the recent killings of unarmed people has resulted in an LEO conviction. I'll be pleased to back off on the "always" comment if you can provide a few examples of LEO'S convicted for violent acts over the past few years.


 check out the 2 Albuquerque cops who murdered the homeless man in the park. they got charged with murder. I have seen the video of this shooting, it was a clear cut murder, the 2 cops clearly was not going to let the victim off without getting shot. I hope the bastards get the death penalty.

another is the shooting at the train station in California where the victim was handcuffed and sitting on the floor. the officer was going to taze a restrained suspect, instead he accidentally grabbed his gun instead of the tazer. the victim was shot and killed. it is accidental shooting, but he was going to taze a restrained suspect which is a no no. a good indication that he was going to torture the suspect.


----------



## Diver

Sasquatch said:


> Not sure what you are asking. I don't support the police or the teen, I support law abiding people (whether in street clothes or a uniform). Yes all of the facts are not in yet but a link in the same story posted does give some answers...
> 
> "_The officers ran the car's license plate and *discovered the vehicle had been reported stolen*. One of the officers got out of the vehicle and approached the car. At that point, the teen driving the car *drove into one of the police officers, fracturing his leg*._"
> 
> Doesn't seem to me a foot slipping off the brake would fracture his leg. Also there were four other people in the car that were taken into custody. None of them received gunshot wounds. So the shots that were fired were well placed rounds at the threat and nothing more than the threat. Again, all of the facts aren't in and the LEO's could be at fault. If they are I hope the get punished to the full extent of the law.
> 
> What I meant by "people are getting tired of it" was something like this happening and immediately the families are on the front lawn of the DA's office ready to lynch the officers. The low lifes in society have learned if the scream loud enough, act intimidating and yell obscenities (like these people did at the press conference) they usually get their way. People are tired of that, including me.


I am not aware of anybody wanting to "lynch" the officers in this case. Asking for a real investigation is reasonable. Personally I would expect an investigation in this case to ultimately clear the officers, though on the limited reporting to date things might turn out differently than I expect.


----------



## Diver

paraquack said:


> I have no problem with the family or anyone else "protesting". Unfortunately "protesting" seems to be nothing more than an excuse to loot and burn innocent folks buildings. Maybe what should have been done by he parents was to tell the young woman, "don't go out and steal others people's stuff, you might come to a bad end." Sorry, while I don't know what kind of a family life she had, I tend to wonder if she had any real moral upbringing.
> You keep talking about the 1st amendment. What about a the 7th commandment, it came a whole lot earlier and served most of the world well for thousands of years.


The only "looting" or "burning" I am aware of was in Ferguson. As far as I know that isn't happening, or even likely, in Denver.


----------



## jimb1972

mhans827 said:


> check out the 2 Albuquerque cops who murdered the homeless man in the park. they got charged with murder. I have seen the video of this shooting, it was a clear cut murder, the 2 cops clearly was not going to let the victim off without getting shot. I hope the bastards get the death penalty.
> 
> another is the shooting at the train station in California where the victim was handcuffed and sitting on the floor. the officer was going to taze a restrained suspect, instead he accidentally grabbed his gun instead of the tazer. the victim was shot and killed. it is accidental shooting, but he was going to taze a restrained suspect which is a no no. a good indication that he was going to torture the suspect.


Incidents like those are why there is so much distrust of the police, and it seems that unless there is incontrovertible proof like video of the incident the police are usually assumed to be in the right. Most of the time they are, but if these couple idiots do this with a camera on them, you have to wonder what goes on when no one is watching.


----------



## 6811

jimb1972 said:


> Incidents like those are why there is so much distrust of the police, and it seems that unless there is incontrovertible proof like video of the incident the police are usually assumed to be in the right. Most of the time they are, but if these couple idiots do this with a camera on them, you have to wonder what goes on when no one is watching.


I agree. this is why I am for body cameras cause I got nothing to hide. plus cameras will free up my schedule for more time away from court. I don't have to show up anymore if they have the footage of the incident. bad guy goes to jail quick and easy. unfortunately the mayor and city council wont approve the camera use in my dept. they don't want 65 percent of their voters going to jail


----------



## shootbrownelk

Diver said:


> The only "looting" or "burning" I am aware of was in Ferguson. As far as I know that isn't happening, or even likely, in Denver.


 Yeah Diver, those Denver folks are probably too stoned to function as arsonists or looters!


----------



## Diver

jimb1972 said:


> Incidents like those are why there is so much distrust of the police, and it seems that unless there is incontrovertible proof like video of the incident the police are usually assumed to be in the right. Most of the time they are, but if these couple idiots do this with a camera on them, you have to wonder what goes on when no one is watching.


There is also a poor record of actually convicting cops. The cops in Albuquerque may get acquited.

This is also a strong argument for body cameras.


----------



## Diver

shootbrownelk said:


> Yeah Diver, those Denver folks are probably too stoned to function as arsonists or looters!


Too true.


----------



## 6811

Diver said:


> There is also a poor record of actually convicting cops. The cops in Albuquerque may get acquited.
> 
> This is also a strong argument for body cameras.


what would be the solution then if there is poor record of actually convicting cops. and what should we do when they are acquitted. where they acquitted by their friends or the jury? maybe the solution should be just to shoot cops in the head when they get involved with anything you don't agree with... that way the tax payer wont have to spend money for court trial, lets just skip all that.... would that satisfy you?


----------



## SARGE7402

mhans827 said:


> what would be the solution then if there is poor record of actually convicting cops. and what should we do when they are acquitted. where they acquitted by their friends or the jury? maybe the solution should be just to shoot cops in the head when they get involved with anything you don't agree with... that way the tax payer wont have to spend money for court trial, lets just skip all that.... would that satisfy you?


Don't give the boy any ideas. Just listening to him and a couple of others on their Idea of two justice systems - one of color where no one gets charged and the other where lynch mob rules regardless of the facts


----------



## paraquack

mhans827 said:


> what would be the solution then if there is poor record of actually convicting cops. and what should we do when they are acquitted. where they acquitted by their friends or the jury? maybe the solution should be just to shoot cops in the head when they get involved with anything you don't agree with... that way the tax payer wont have to spend money for court trial, lets just skip all that.... would that satisfy you?


While I know that you typed the above with your sarcastic font, don't give Diver any ideas.


----------



## Sasquatch

Diver said:


> The occasions on which LEOS go to jail for killing someone are about as common as unicorns. Certainly none of the recent killings of unarmed people has resulted in an LEO conviction. I'll be pleased to back off on the "always" comment if you can provide a few examples of LEO'S convicted for violent acts over the past few years.


I called you out on "always" and asked you to prove my statement wrong. You can't do that so ask that I prove my statement true. I'm pretty sure you know a quick Google search will prove my statement true. But just for shits and giggles I'll find a few for you when I get home. Just off the top of my head o hears a news story about a week ago of a LEO getting convicted for raping a girl. But just to put the nail in the coffin of your argument I'll find a couple more and get back to you.


----------



## dwight55

Play stupid games, . . . win stupid prizes.

Stupid kid should have just stopped when the red / white / blues went on, . . . the other girl in the car with her said she knew the cops were after her.

Having the mentality to steal a car indicates a predisposition to resist authority to begin with, . . . and I'll go with the originator of the idea that she's an illegal. Her parents don't seem to speak hardly any English, . . . indicating a whole family that jumped the fence, . . . 

Too bad a young life was wasted, . . . but when you start out being a criminal, . . . chances are it just ain't gonna get any better for you.

May God bless,
Dwight


----------



## Maine-Marine

oddapple said:


> Prosecutors promise probe of police killing of teen
> 
> Girl shot in Denver over stealing a car. Apparently she hit a cop car and injured him before one of them shot her.
> Protest beginning.....though facts still not all out (of course)


Lets me correct this for you, Because the girl was not shot over stealing a car....

*"Girl Shot over attempted murder of a police officer"*


----------



## Diver

Okay "always" is an overstatement:

In 179 NYPD-involved deaths, only 3 indicted ? EXCLUSIVE - NY Daily News

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/n...o-shot-at-her-son-will-get-gun-back.html?_r=0

Then there are the cases that don't involve deaths like this one:

City will be hit with $5M lawsuit over jaywalk arrest - NY Daily News

If you are a NYPD cop you have almost have a license to kill.


----------



## Sasquatch

Diver said:


> The occasions on which LEOS go to jail for killing someone are about as common as unicorns. Certainly none of the recent killings of unarmed people has resulted in an LEO conviction. I'll be pleased to back off on the "always" comment if you can provide a few examples of LEO'S convicted for violent acts over the past few years.


Diver, I don't know you and I would suppose you are a fine person. I think unfortunately you have fallen into the trap of the media. The media is quick to report stories about cops shooting "unarmed" black/hispanic kids because it furthers their profit/ratings and agenda. I took me about 3 minutes to find what you asked for which I have linked below. I have no doubt there are bad cops out there, I've run into a few myself. Those bad cops should be held accountable for any crime they commit under the color of authority. I think one thing people don't think about and the News certainly doesn't report is we don't hear that many stories of cops unjustifiably shooting unarmed people because most of the shootings are justifiable. Just because someone is unarmed doesn't mean they can't be a threat to an officer. Here are 4 different stories of LEO's being convicted of unjust shootings in recent years.

Oklahoma jury convicts police captain of unarmed black teen's manslaughter | US news | The Guardian

BBC News - The cases where US police have faced killing charges

Former BART officer convicted of involuntary manslaughter - Los Angeles Times


----------



## James m

People used to say, if my kid ever did something like that id *insert beating synonym* well i guess you couldn't do that anymore, because your kid would be dead.


----------



## PatriotFlamethrower

Diver said:


> Okay "always" is an overstatement:
> 
> In 179 NYPD-involved deaths, only 3 indicted ? EXCLUSIVE - NY Daily News
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/n...o-shot-at-her-son-will-get-gun-back.html?_r=0
> 
> Then there are the cases that don't involve deaths like this one:
> 
> City will be hit with $5M lawsuit over jaywalk arrest - NY Daily News
> 
> If you are a NYPD cop you have almost have a license to kill.


It's looking more and more like this whole incident can be blamed on our government's policy of "catch and release" and the new Obama policy of "don't bother catching them".

If this country had CLOSED BORDERS with completed fences, legitimate border patrolling, and a path to send the millions of illegals BACK to Mexico (or whatever other turd-world countries they come from), Hernandez never would have been in this country in the first place, and she would still be alive!

Tell your "license to kill" fairy tale to the families of the officers who were murdered in cold blood in NYC a few weeks ago, and to all of the other families who have lost police officer fathers and sons.

Your reckless assumptions and obvious HATRED for PEACE officers makes it very clear to me, and I'm sure other people, that you should be on somebody's "watch list".


----------



## Diver

Sasquatch said:


> Diver, I don't know you and I would suppose you are a fine person. I think unfortunately you have fallen into the trap of the media. The media is quick to report stories about cops shooting "unarmed" black/hispanic kids because it furthers their profit/ratings and agenda. I took me about 3 minutes to find what you asked for which I have linked below. I have no doubt there are bad cops out there, I've run into a few myself. Those bad cops should be held accountable for any crime they commit under the color of authority. I think one thing people don't think about and the News certainly doesn't report is we don't hear that many stories of cops unjustifiably shooting unarmed people because most of the shootings are justifiable. Just because someone is unarmed doesn't mean they can't be a threat to an officer. Here are 4 different stories of LEO's being convicted of unjust shootings in recent years.
> 
> Oklahoma jury convicts police captain of unarmed black teen's manslaughter | US news | The Guardian
> 
> BBC News - The cases where US police have faced killing charges
> 
> Former BART officer convicted of involuntary manslaughter - Los Angeles Times


From article #2:

It is one example of a rare instance where police are arrested or charged for violent incidents related to their police work.

From article #3:

Prosecutors in Los Angeles have not won a murder conviction in a police shooting case since 1983.

It appears you are supporting my point of view.


----------



## Diver

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> It's looking more and more like this whole incident can be blamed on our government's policy of "catch and release" and the new Obama policy of "don't bother catching them".
> 
> If this country had CLOSED BORDERS with completed fences, legitimate border patrolling, and a path to send the millions of illegals BACK to Mexico (or whatever other turd-world countries they come from), Hernandez never would have been in this country in the first place, and she would still be alive!
> 
> Tell your "license to kill" fairy tale to the families of the officers who were murdered in cold blood in NYC a few weeks ago, and to all of the other families who have lost police officer fathers and sons.
> 
> Your reckless assumptions and obvious HATRED for PEACE officers makes it very clear to me, and I'm sure other people, that you should be on somebody's "watch list".


Neither Amadou Diallo, nor the jaywalker, were illegal. If there is any reckless hatred here it yours toward immigrants.

What I have said about this case is it should be investigated and I would expect the cop to be cleared once that is complete.

As for being on a watch list, I assume I already am. I also expect you are too.


----------



## Sasquatch

Diver said:


> From article #2:
> 
> It is one example of a rare instance where police are arrested or charged for violent incidents related to their police work.
> 
> From article #3:
> 
> Prosecutors in Los Angeles have not won a murder conviction in a police shooting case since 1983.
> 
> It appears you are supporting my point of view.


Jesus! It is apparent you would argue it was night time while the sun gave you third degree burns. Do you think maybe those papers could be a little biased in their reporting!?! Hell in article #3 the line _Prosecutors in Los Angeles have not won a murder conviction in a police shooting case since 1983._ is a non sequitur for godsake. Its just thrown in there between two paragraphs with no rhyme or reason. And even if prosecutors in LA haven't won one since 1983 that tell us nothing. You see how they conveniently failed to mention how many there have been? I never made the claim police officers always get punished for crimes they commit but you did make the claim police always walk from crimes they commit. So it is quiet obvious I proved your point of view dead wrong.


----------



## SARGE7402

Diver said:


> From article #2:
> 
> It is one example of a rare instance where police are arrested or charged for violent incidents related to their police work.
> 
> From article #3:
> 
> Prosecutors in Los Angeles have not won a murder conviction in a police shooting case since 1983.
> 
> It appears you are supporting my point of view.


Unless you're totally unable to understand the law and accidental death resulting from a shooting is manslaughter - not murder.

Here's quite a few cases from the H Post. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/bad-cops/

Why not be a man and admit that you have a phobia about police and get yourself some help


----------



## SARGE7402

Two SF Cops Convicted In Corruption Trial Involving Stolen Drugs And Cash: SFist

Mom ?Looking Over Shoulder? After Cop-Husband Convicted of Framing Her - ABC News

South Florida Cops Convicted of Questionable Felonies After Whistleblowing Complaint - PINAC

In Huge Shock, NYPD Cop Convicted of Planting Drugs on Innocent People


----------



## James m

Trevino and Panama squad....


----------



## Gunner's Mate

Yo yo yo Gangsta got capped


----------



## Gunner's Mate

Yo yo yo parents of gangsta wanna be kids don't lets yourin chilluns drive in stolen cars


----------



## Gunner's Mate

Sorry I do not know how to spell in ebonics


----------



## Diver

Sasquatch said:


> Jesus! It is apparent you would argue it was night time while the sun gave you third degree burns. Do you think maybe those papers could be a little biased in their reporting!?! Hell in article #3 the line _Prosecutors in Los Angeles have not won a murder conviction in a police shooting case since 1983._ is a non sequitur for godsake. Its just thrown in there between two paragraphs with no rhyme or reason. And even if prosecutors in LA haven't won one since 1983 that tell us nothing. You see how they conveniently failed to mention how many there have been? I never made the claim police officers always get punished for crimes they commit but you did make the claim police always walk from crimes they commit. So it is quiet obvious I proved your point of view dead wrong.


Actually, I have been arguing that the case in question should be investigated. What's wrong with investigating when someone gets shot? Why do you want to argue against that?

As for the LAPD, of Rodney King fame, they have been under more or less perpetual scrutiny by federal authorities for excessive violence. NY on the other hand is known for shooting innocent bystanders, e.g. Akai Gurley. Are these reputations deserved? If people believed there was a serious effort to reduce the number of killings by police then perhaps those reputations could be put in the past.


----------



## SARGE7402

Diver said:


> As for being on a watch list, I assume I already am. I also expect you are too.


Why would anyone want to place you on a watch list? Only people that are real threats go on watch lists. You may be a bit kooky, but I seriously doubt if you're a threat.

And no one was spouting any hatred against immigrants. Illegals - especially ones that commit serious crimes like murder ought to get the death penalty.


----------



## SARGE7402

Diver said:


> Actually, I have been arguing that the case in question should be investigated. What's wrong with investigating when someone gets shot? Why do you want to argue against that?
> 
> As for the LAPD, of Rodney King fame, they have been under more or less perpetual scrutiny by federal authorities for excessive violence. NY on the other hand is known for shooting innocent bystanders, e.g. Akai Gurley. Are these reputations deserved? If people believed there was a serious effort to reduce the number of killings by police then perhaps those reputations could be put in the past.


Actually the bulk of the reason for the fed scrutiny of LAPD had to do with the Rampart Scandal and the falisification of evidence.


----------



## Maine-Marine

Diver said:


> Okay "always" is an overstatement:
> 
> In 179 NYPD-involved deaths, only 3 indicted ? EXCLUSIVE - NY Daily News
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/n...o-shot-at-her-son-will-get-gun-back.html?_r=0
> 
> Then there are the cases that don't involve deaths like this one:
> 
> City will be hit with $5M lawsuit over jaywalk arrest - NY Daily News
> 
> If you are a NYPD cop you have almost have a license to kill.


There are 34,000 New York Police officers... so .005% of them are involved in shooting deaths... Yep you caught em.... they are on a killing spree...

be honest... if they "HAD A LICENSE to KILL" the death count would be at least closer to 34,000


----------



## Slippy

Update; As predicted last night a vigil protest was held on little Ms Hernandez' behalf

About 200 people attend Jessica Hernandez protest at District 2 police station in Denver - The Denver Post

Protestors held signs saying "Jessie's Life Mattered" and similar nonsense. The protestors read some poetry that young Ms Hernandez wrote and rumors circulated that the family of Ms Hernandez would be deported, although the officers denied that rumor.

Meanwhile, more information is coming out and as predicted, the family members of the car thieves (who were not on the scene) are contradicting the police officers version.

Chief: Denver cops asked teens to get out of car before fatal shooting - The Denver Post


----------



## dwight55

SARGE7402 said:


> ....................And no one was spouting any hatred against immigrants. Illegals - especially ones that commit serious crimes like murder ought to get the death penalty.


Immigrants are what made this country great.

Illegals are what is tearing this country apart.

Face it, . . . like it or not, . . . they are criminals, lawbreakers, and as such will have a very serious propensity to avoid interaction with LEO's, . . . and may use whatever means they have available to act on that propensity.

The worst ones are the kids who grew up here, . . . came over as babies or toddlers, . . . this is the country they know, . . . but they were raised in a sub-culture that fears the LEO, . . . flaunts the law, . . . and looks to the White House for direction and salvation.

If the POTUS can irreverently flaunt his ability to avoid any interaction with lawful entities, . . . so can the illegals (in their mind).

Yes, . . . some people will be hurt (financially and emotionally), . . . but there has to be a stand taken.

I make the motion that every last one of them, . . . all illegals, . . . are rounded up, . . . deported, . . . period.

ANYONE who cannot, . . . or WILL NOT, . . . produce full evidence of citizenship, . . . gets put on a plane, truck, or boat, . . . and taken away. THEN build the Saudi style fence along the whole Southern border, . . . and when it is done, . . . do the north as well.

May God bless,
Dwight


----------



## Diver

Maine-Marine said:


> There are 34,000 New York Police officers... so .005% of them are involved in shooting deaths... Yep you caught em.... they are on a killing spree...
> 
> be honest... if they "HAD A LICENSE to KILL" the death count would be at least closer to 34,000


NYPD also does not report police homicides to the Feds, contributing to the problem of no national statistics on police homicides. NYPD is also responsible for uncounted amounts of non-lethal violence. The most notrious being the case of Abner Louima, who was sodomized by NYPD officers.


----------



## SARGE7402

you claim no officers ever get punished. but in your landmark case didn't five go to prison for a long time? Abner Louima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## SARGE7402

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downlo...ypd_annual_firearms_discharge_report_2012.pdf

Not even a five minute google. don't try and BS folks that NYPD doesn't account for shootings (all that happen off the firing range). But hey let's not let the facts or documentation get in the way of our prejudices


----------



## PatriotFlamethrower

Diver said:


> NYPD also does not report police homicides to the Feds, contributing to the problem of no national statistics on police homicides. NYPD is also responsible for uncounted amounts of non-lethal violence. The most notrious being the case of Abner Louima, who was sodomized by NYPD officers.


We all get it, Diver.

You despise police officers, and support illegal immigrants.

Is your last name "Holder"?


----------



## oddapple

"Lynch" - a curious name which is also something to do with democrats and rotten politicians.....


----------



## Smitty901

Sad ending but not the LEO fault.


----------



## oddapple

Uh....one less and the whole gang is to be deported.....eye of the beholder I guess. I was thinking "good start" ~

But in all fairness to diver, there's like a page of incidents
https://m.facebook.com/CopBlock?_rdr

And this one is fresh:
http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/01/kristiana-coignard-video/

So there's no real demographic visible, all races and states of mind....sorry ferguson and la roacha


----------



## Diver

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> We all get it, Diver.
> 
> You despise police officers, and support illegal immigrants.
> 
> Is your last name "Holder"?


There is nothing in the story to indicate that illegal immigrants have anything to do with the case. If you want to discuss illegal immigration that is a completely different topic. If you want to assume that the person is an illegal alien based on nothing more than a Hispanic last name then you simply want to inflame the issue. I suggest another thread.

As for me "despising" police officers, that may or may not be, but I have merely suggested that the incident be investigated as the story is woefully incomplete. What you seem to be proposing is that this incident not be investigated. In other words you are taking the position that police do have a license to kill. Are you sure you want to live in a police state?


----------



## Diver

oddapple said:


> Uh....one less and the whole gang is to be deported.....eye of the beholder I guess. I was thinking "good start" ~
> 
> But in all fairness to diver, there's like a page of incidents
> https://m.facebook.com/CopBlock?_rdr
> 
> And this one is fresh:
> Surveillance Video Raises Questions About Police Shooting of 17-Year-Old Girl
> 
> So there's no real demographic visible, all races and states of mind....sorry ferguson and la roacha


Fairness to me? How about fairness to the 17 year old mental health patient? Among the few studies on police shootings one of the conclusions was that the single most likely group to be killed by police was the mentally ill, outnumbering blacks as victims of police shootings. I can hardly wait for the post that claims that all of the mental health patients in the country are illegal aliens. 

If you want to bring down the number of people killed by police (admittedly I seem to be the only one that thinks that is a worthwhile goal) one of the first steps would be better training for police on recognizing and dealing with mental health cases.

To connect this back to the OP, whether Jessica Hernandez had mental health problems is also unknown. She is about as likely to have been a mental health patient as she was likely to be an illegal alien.


----------



## SARGE7402

Think you've got two 17 year old females confused. One has a hispanic last name and one had "mental health" issues. What both have in common. Age, sex, assault on police officers, shot and killed. 

One thing several of you seem to believe is that the cops in each case are more than happy to kill these "innocent" good hearted people. Each of these officers have been placed in circumstances not of their own choosing, and been forced to kill a young individual and now they have their actions all second guessed by a bunch of armchair commandos who haven't a clue as to what a situation like this can do to that officer.

What I find really funny is the cold bloodedness of some posts dealing with folks showing up hungry at your door after a shtf event of how they'd turn away anyone except family. Talk about a bunch of heartless SOB"S.


----------



## 6811

Diver said:


> Fairness to me? How about fairness to the 17 year old mental health patient? Among the few studies on police shootings one of the conclusions was that the single most likely group to be killed by police was the mentally ill, outnumbering blacks as victims of police shootings. I can hardly wait for the post that claims that all of the mental health patients in the country are illegal aliens.
> 
> If you want to bring down the number of people killed by police (admittedly I seem to be the only one that thinks that is a worthwhile goal) one of the first steps would be better training for police on recognizing and dealing with mental health cases.
> 
> To connect this back to the OP, whether Jessica Hernandez had mental health problems is also unknown. She is about as likely to have been a mental health patient as she was likely to be an illegal alien.


 I agree that the mentally Ill is most likely to be injured or killed in a police confrontation. think about it, you got to be crazy to attack a police officer. and as far as recognizing the mentally Ill, it is next to impossible. they are not running around with a sign on their forehead saying "don't shoot, I am mentally Ill"

as far as dealing with the mentally Ill, obviously you deal with them differently but when they become violent towards you and life preservation became the issue at hand, you gotta do what you have to, to survive. you cant say "oh he is bat shit crazy so I will just let him choke the life out of me, I cant shoot him for being nuts." it doesn't work that way. yes there are other weapons that the police could use. pepper spray, baton, or less than lethal shot gun. but none of that is guaranteed to work, specially on a mental case. also, sometimes there isn't any time to use the other weapons. most cops don't enjoy hurting people, let alone killing a person, mentally Ill or not.


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## oddapple

Most being the operative word....


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## HuntingHawk

Teen killed by police previously cited for resisting arrest - Windstream Communications


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## paraquack

Just because an attacker is mentally ill doesn't mean that you are not going to be injured/killed. Sorry, first my family, then me, then, oh well, you get the idea.


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## Smitty901

Those calling for LEO head, should instead go to every school ,every street corner and carry signs that say steal a car this is what could happen . Do you feel luck today.
When a citizens life or a LEO life is at risk the time to consider a persons medical history has long passed.


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## Diver

paraquack said:


> Just because an attacker is mentally ill doesn't mean that you are not going to be injured/killed. Sorry, first my family, then me, then, oh well, you get the idea.


From which I assume you are a cop. Do you believe you can tell when you are dealing with a mental health patient? Do you have training that teaches you any different techniques for dealing with mental health patients?


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## Diver

Smitty901 said:


> Those calling for LEO head, should instead go to every school ,every street corner and carry signs that say steal a car this is what could happen . Do you feel luck today.
> When a citizens life or a LEO life is at risk the time to consider a persons medical history has long passed.


No one has called for the LEOS head. What I have called for is an investigation.

As for someone's life being at risk, mine is at risk every single time I am within shooting distance from a cop. All I have to do is inadvertently move in a direction he thinks is threatening and he can kill me with impunity. That needs to change.


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## 6811

Diver said:


> mine is at risk every single time I am within shooting distance from a cop. All I have to do is inadvertently move in a direction he thinks is threatening and he can kill me with impunity. That needs to change.


it's either you are so exaggerated in your belief that a cop will kill you for no reason or you really need to get some help. being paranoid the way you are cant be good for your mental health. I'm not a shrink, but if you really believe every cop in the vicinity is out to kill you has gotta be a burden.... do you shit your pants when you hear sirens nearby? do you piss yourself when you see an activated emergency lights from a cop car? that is not the way to live, you need to overcome that feeling. look, kidding aside, if you want to overcome this issue, I am willing to help. I can get you in a police station or training facility so you could see what we do there. I maybe even able to get you to go for a ride along. just PM me and I will try to make it happen. I can call the nearest agency in your area so you wont have to travel far. That may or may not help, but its worth a shot (no pun intended). you don't have to be scared.


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## SARGE7402

Diver said:


> From which I assume you are a cop. Do you believe you can tell when you are dealing with a mental health patient? Do you have training that teaches you any different techniques for dealing with mental health patients?


Actually they do give quite a bit of training on dealing with individuals that are not all there - be it cause they don't take their prescribed meds, they take non prescribed meds (alcohol, coke, Meth, Pot etc; or they're suffering from a physical chemical imbalance - believe the term is acidosis where they talk gibberis; strip off all their cloths in cold weather or they've suffered some form of other condition - such as low or high blood sugar.

And just for the record, just cause a dude has low blood sugar doesn't mean that he can't kill you just as easily as a drunk driver when he get's behind the wheel.

And also for the record, I'm a peace officer, an instructor and one who's certified to train folks on TASER's.

Now perhaps we can find you a class that would help you interact with the police so you don't feel offended or abused


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## SARGE7402

mhans827 said:


> it's either you are so exaggerated in your belief that a cop will kill you for no reason or you really need to get some help. being paranoid the way you are cant be good for your mental health. I'm not a shrink, but if you really believe every cop in the vicinity is out to kill you has gotta be a burden.... do you shit your pants when you hear sirens nearby? do you piss yourself when you see an activated emergency lights from a cop car? that is not the way to live, you need to overcome that feeling. look, kidding aside, if you want to overcome this issue, I am willing to help. I can get you in a police station or training facility so you could see what we do there. I maybe even able to get you to go for a ride along. just PM me and I will try to make it happen. I can call the nearest agency in your area so you wont have to travel far. That may or may not help, but its worth a shot (no pun intended). you don't have to be scared.


MH: I'd say we ought to take up a collection for D and get him some depends.


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## Diver

With friends like you why should I respect cops?


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## 6811

Diver said:


> With friends like you why should I respect cops?


oh and we are supposed to love you for thinking that we are all murderers... seriously, you need to overcome this fear or belief that cops are out to get you. that cannot be healthy. I really wish you were near me so I can prove to you that cops are not going to hurt you for no reason. just like you, cops are people too. most of us don't want to hurt people like we don't want people hurting us.


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## SARGE7402

Actually I believe he said he's already been introduced to his local PD in one of his previous posts. Don't think he'd be amenable to getting in a cruiser with them under any circumstances. 

If he really does fear that any cop he runs into is going to bust a cap on his a - - for the least little reason, then before he goes along on a ride along, he ought to get the treatment he needs.


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## 6811

SARGE7402 said:


> Actually I believe he said he's already been introduced to his local PD in one of his previous posts. Don't think he'd be amenable to getting in a cruiser with them under any circumstances.
> 
> If he really does fear that any cop he runs into is going to bust a cap on his a - - for the least little reason, then before he goes along on a ride along, he ought to get the treatment he needs.


that has to be the worst feeling in the world. I wish there is something we could do for him...


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## Sasquatch

Diver said:


> No one has called for the LEOS head. What I have called for is an investigation.
> 
> As for someone's life being at risk, mine is at risk every single time I am within shooting distance from a cop. All I have to do is inadvertently move in a direction he thinks is threatening and he can kill me with impunity. That needs to change.


I'm not a cop but if someone who is could clarify it would be appreciated. Anytime an officer is involved in a shooting isn't there an investigation? Thought that was pretty standard but I could be wrong.


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## Diver

mhans827 said:


> oh and we are supposed to love you for thinking that we are all murderers... seriously, you need to overcome this fear or belief that cops are out to get you. that cannot be healthy. I really wish you were near me so I can prove to you that cops are not going to hurt you for no reason. just like you, cops are people too. most of us don't want to hurt people like we don't want people hurting us.


I have not said you're all murderers. But with inciters being tossed about, I am definitely at risk any time I run into a cop. Explain the Akai Gurley case and then tell me how it is safe to be around NY or NJ cops.


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## PatriotFlamethrower

Diver said:


> There is nothing in the story to indicate that illegal immigrants have anything to do with the case. If you want to discuss illegal immigration that is a completely different topic. If you want to assume that the person is an illegal alien based on nothing more than a Hispanic last name then you simply want to inflame the issue. I suggest another thread.
> 
> As for me "despising" police officers, that may or may not be, but I have merely suggested that the incident be investigated as the story is woefully incomplete. What you seem to be proposing is that this incident not be investigated. In other words you are taking the position that police do have a license to kill. Are you sure you want to live in a police state?


It certainly appears as though the immigration status of the "victim" and her family is in serious question, and the Obama regime is engaging a massive coverup, so I am confident that my prediction is correct.

Now that you have NOT denied that you despise police officers, and from the beginning you appointed yourself as the judge, jury, and executioner in this matter, how did you arrive at finding these police officers, or at least one officer, GUILTY of ANY crime, when you yourself stated that "the story is woefully incomplete"?

I NEVER stated that there should not be an investigation, but in this country you are INNOCENT until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I hope you NEVER are afforded the opportunity to serve on a jury, "Komrade" Diver.


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## Diver

Sasquatch said:


> I'm not a cop but if someone who is could clarify it would be appreciated. Anytime an officer is involved in a shooting isn't there an investigation? Thought that was pretty standard but I could be wrong.


No there is not. There is often a whitewash. I have obviously not been shot by a cop but I have filed a complaint against a cop who illegally entered my home. There was no investigation. There were multiple witnesses and none were interviewed. I ultimately had to take legal action against the town in order to even get a meeting with the chief who had simply stonewalled the matter up to that point.

In order for people to have any faith in the investigations, the investigation must be done by an independent party, not the same department. That would be a rare event.


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## Diver

PatriotFlamethrower said:


> It certainly appears as though the immigration status of the "victim" and her family is in serious question, and the Obama regime is engaging a massive coverup, so I am confident that my prediction is correct.
> 
> Now that you have NOT denied that you despise police officers, and from the beginning you appointed yourself as the judge, jury, and executioner in this matter, how did you arrive at finding these police officers, or at least one officer, GUILTY of ANY crime, when you yourself stated that "the story is woefully incomplete"?
> 
> I NEVER stated that there should not be an investigation, but in this country you are INNOCENT until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
> 
> I hope you NEVER are afforded the opportunity to serve on a jury, "Komrade" Diver.


Are you just unable to read? I have not declared any officer guilty. I have said the matter needed to be investigated. Go back and read the thread again.


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## 6811

Sasquatch said:


> I'm not a cop but if someone who is could clarify it would be appreciated. Anytime an officer is involved in a shooting isn't there an investigation? Thought that was pretty standard but I could be wrong.


yes... the cop involved is placed in administrative suspension. he will be investigated and after the investigation, the finding will be sent to the grand jury for indictment. if the grand jury decides that the cops actions were justified, he is cleared criminally. after that, the investigation is sent to the internal affairs for review to see if the officer violated police SOP. if he did, he gets charged administratively. so for us cops, we have to go through 2 process to see if we go to jail or not go to jail but lose our job. also, as a LEO, we have this called LEOBR. law enforcement officers bill of rights. we are required to give statement to the investigator and we have no choice un like the civilians, you can exercise the 5A. as a cop, we really don't have that. they just give us 10 days and we have to give a statement. also, civilians can refuse lie detector test, we can't.


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## Mish

SARGE7402 said:


> MH: I'd say we ought to take up a collection for D and get him some depends.


You're going to need Depends when I'm done with you!! 
Now, let's play like nice little boys or I'll have to get out my paddle!!! Got it?!


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## SARGE7402

Diver said:


> I have not said you're all murderers. But with inciters being tossed about, I am definitely at risk any time I run into a cop. Explain the Akai Gurley case and then tell me how it is safe to be around NY or NJ cops.


Diver: you act like the cop that shot him did it deliberately. Did the cop do somethings stupid. Sure. Did he intend to shoot Mr. Gurley. It doesn't seem like it and apparently the City's DA seems to think so too. Does the family have a good case for a wrongful death suit. You betcha. Was the cop right to contact his Union Rep (I'm assuming the Patrolmans' PBA). Yeah definitely. He has the same rights as you and everyone else has to have representation any time he's questioned and stands a pretty good chance of going to jail.

But can you honestly tell us that you've never had an accidental discharge.


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## SARGE7402

Sasquatch said:


> I'm not a cop but if someone who is could clarify it would be appreciated. Anytime an officer is involved in a shooting isn't there an investigation? Thought that was pretty standard but I could be wrong.


Posted this back a while ago : http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downlo...ypd_annual_firearms_discharge_report_2012.pdf Not only does NYPD investigate all shootings that happen off the range, they publish their findings for everyone to see and read.

For small agencies, they tend to have a larger agency (County Police or Sheriff) do the investigation.

Some departments also have a use of force investigation. What MH said about the officers having to give a statement he's correct - as far as concerning officers here in Virginia.


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## SARGE7402

Diver would also have one believe that there is no civilian oversight of NYPD. Not so: http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/downloads/pdf/CCRB Annual_2013.pdf

That's their report to the citizens for the year 2013.


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## SARGE7402

They also publish a citizens guide to police encounters. http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/downloads/pdf/Police encounter_EngRev.pdf


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## SARGE7402

Mish said:


> You're going to need Depends when I'm done with you!!
> Now, let's play like nice little boys or I'll have to get out my paddle!!! Got it?!


Some day's I think I'm already ready for them


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