# Intravenous fluid administration



## jpotter (Aug 31, 2017)

As I browse the many posts in this section I have ran across quite a few folk claiming to have IV supplies and fluid, admittedly without much experience on their application. So I would like to see everyone post what they have on hand for IV supplies, their experience level and any questions they may have and the resident medical professionals here can lend some of their expertise. 

What is everyone's opinion on the practicality of this skill in a SHTF scenario? 

How do you plan on using this skill and how will you include this in your treatment plans? Just as importantly how will you access the effectiveness of your treatment? 

Btw I don't advocate anyone without proper licensing and training performing a invasive procedure such as this in everyday to day life.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I don't have the skill, so I don't have the equipment.
An argument could be made for "I may not know how, but *someone* might".
While true, the expense of acquiring and maintaining a shelf of items I can't use begins to look less and less useful.

That said, I've watched a few videos of med professionals doing IV insertions, and know it is something I will NOT be trying without real training.


----------



## Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

As long as a person can take fluids orally and tolerate them there is no need for IV fluids. I can see why people would want to have them on hand as they want to prepare for all emergencies including dehydration. I have to agree with @jpotter a person needs to have the proper training for IV sticks as well as fluid and electrolyte balance before infusing fluids.


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

I learned how to do IV D5LR for when my kid was sick and with a resection, did that for a month.

I have also done some of the animals in the past.

Every so often I get a shipment of IV stuff in from brother, I just look at it and put it away.

My brother and his wife are the experts, he is an MD and his wife an OR head nurse.


----------



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I can do it. I have a couple thing at the office but not at home. Some drugs do have short shelf lives others do not. As long as the IV fluid is not cloudy it is probably OK. Most bags are marked for expiration in a year but I have heard of fluids being ok 3 years past. If stored like water in stable conditions at or slightly below room temperature there is a chance at long shelf life would be my guess although I have not found this out for certain. Be certain of what your storing. Best way to learn is to take a certified course like a phlebotomist or an EMT. This something you can screw someone up further if you do not know what your doing. Its not difficult but you do not want to learn on the fly under life and death conditions. Then again heroin junkies seem to do just fine.






IV Certification Classes and Courses Overview

https://healthcare.utah.edu/healthfeed/postings/2012/06/061412ivtraining.php

Requirements for IV Certification - Video


----------



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

@SOCOM42 do you know how long saline will store? Optimal conditions?


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I keep plenty of IV solution on hand. :devil:


----------



## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

An IV could be a life saver in cases of dysentery or cholera. Such waterborne diseases could become common in a SHTF situation. Wish I knew how to use them.


----------



## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

I have a very well rounded medical and dental supply, including surgical and tooth extraction instruments. I do not have any IV equipment .... way too over my head. I'm kinda with my pal Prepared One on this action item.

I really am uncomfortable in medical situations and hospitals. My wife works in one, and finds me to be not the best partner to "talk about work". I just returned from a day surgery experience, and at 56 this was my first personal surgery. I'm just glad to be back home.


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Camel923 said:


> @SOCOM42 do you know how long saline will store? Optimal conditions?


I am no expert not even enlightened on the subject,

from what I understand if kept cool say 36-38 degrees it will be good for over a year.

Chemistry change is not the problem, fungal and bacterial growth is.

I have run samples two or three years old that were kept at those temps and no growth was noticed.

I do expose the bags to UV light for 24 hours before storing.

The samples were stained and mounted, reviewed at 100X with my B&L microscope.

What I did notice in some of the older bags was the reformation of the chloride crystals, was a strange experience.

They were residing at the bottom of the bag as stored, only saw them as the light was refracted.

They are stored in a fridge, oldest are discarded and replaced when he sends up new ones of the different ones,

hey I am just a store keeper, I know squat.

I can say this, if needed post SHTF, regardless of age and no detectable growths,

it will get used with Cipro added to the solution.

You can make your own from sterilized water and sodium chloride if needed.

An alternative is to admin fluid rectally if possible and that does not need sterilization.


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

A Watchman said:


> I have a very well rounded medical and dental supply, including surgical and tooth extraction instruments. I do not have any IV equipment .... way too over my head. I'm kinda with my pal Prepared One on this action item.
> 
> I really am uncomfortable in medical situations and hospitals. My wife works in one, and finds me to be not the best partner to "talk about work". I just returned from a day surgery experience, and at 56 this was my first personal surgery. I'm just glad to be back home.


I have been stabbed, sliced, bent, and broke in my years, been in the emergency room more times then a care to count in my younger years and to this day, I still get queasy when walking into even a doctors office. Don't like the smell of em. My wife is much better adapt at medical procedures. I know enough to try and stop the bleeding till I get to the emergency room. :laugh:

I have plenty of first aid equipment and supplies but knowledge is my weak link for sure.


----------



## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Prepared One said:


> I have been stabbed, sliced, bent, and broke in my years, been in the emergency room more times then a care to count in my younger years and to this day, I still get queasy when walking into even a doctors office. Don't like the smell of em. My wife is much better adapt at medical procedures. I know enough to try and stop the bleeding till I get to the emergency room. :laugh:
> 
> I have plenty of first aid equipment and supplies but knowledge is my weak link for sure.


I can relate to this post! The two smells in this life that give me the shivers .... hospitals and police stations.


----------



## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

jpotter said:


> As I browse the many posts in this section I have ran across quite a few folk claiming to have IV supplies and fluid, admittedly without much experience on their application. So I would like to see everyone post what they have on hand for IV supplies, their experience level and any questions they may have and the resident medical professionals here can lend some of their expertise.
> 
> What is everyone's opinion on the practicality of this skill in a SHTF scenario?
> 
> ...


no -IV are not hard but knowing were and how is important and what type of solution to use -the idiot with the whiskey IV you will be dead in seconds from that -no shit!!!!!! the most common solution is sodium chloride or what is AKA saline how long does it last way way past the expiration date like years OK, ringers(ringers lactate) the next most common and useful will last a couple years but I would not use an expired bag , the last and I seriously doubt anyone would have any is dextrose 5% water or D5W this is used for malnourished or really bad and weak physical people and never ever give D5W to a head injury EVER. believe me I have seen many a mess ups teaching combat life saver course's (CLS) most common ifs forgetting to release the tourniquet before removing pressure in the injection sight = blood spray everywere and the patients face turning white. here is another problem there are different sizes of needles the most common is 18 gauge but say you have a 6 y/o child and all you have is 14 gauge the freaking needle is bigger than the kids veins what do you do? or you have an elderly person with collapsing veins what now? you can use the IV tubing and a IV bag of any flavor for an alternate method put the darn thing in their azz no needle needed like an enema this will allow them to retain about 95% of the fluid and works just about as fast -something like IV and other non medical training is a good reason to have a national meet and greet convention so someone with the knowledge can share at a display table and a scheduled daily event and classes can be put together over a weekend.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Back in the early 80's, I dated an army medic. I was her pin cushion when she was getting certed to start IV's. 

Two things I can promise you. I'll never again be a pin cushion for a trainee, and ain't no untrained person coming at me with an IV without first finding a way to restrain me.


----------



## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

I keep lactated ringer's on hand for my animals. It stores at room temperature as per packaging. 

I don't know how to do IV either, but with the critters, you just inject it under the skin. It makes a big bubble that would be uncomfortable for awhile but will be absorbed into the body. I wonder if you couldn't do the same for humans.


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I spent my last years in the military as a Combat Medic... I do not have any IV supplies and I use to teach how to give and maintain IV's

I need to get some supplies


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

With my wife being a retired emergency room nurse (was also a paramedic) who has started thousands of IVs and 
myself a retire paramedic, we have the necessary skills. BUT for someone with no skills, I wouldn't let them touch 
me unless I knew I was going to die, and even then I don't think I would let them touch me. We all remember 
"Doomsday Preppers" TV show. I remember an episode where the "prepper" had IV administration supplies and 
started an IV on his wife for the camera. He started it backwards, the F'ing needle was shoved in pointing down
towards her hand. He never watched for a blood return because he had no knowledge of what he was doing. 

Now let's say you watched enough videos that you think you can start an IV, practice makes perfect. Who are 
you going to practice on? In paramedic class, after we practiced on a fake arm with tubes for veins, we practiced 
on each other. It was pretty easy on nice healthy young people. But what about the older folks or just someone 
who has lost a lot of blood already. I can tell you it is difficult. My last stint in the ER, It took the nurses 3 times
to get an IV started. 

So let's say you actually have the IV started and it's patent. Which IV fluid are you going to give? D5W, Normal 
Saline, Lactated Ringers, or what. If a person is having a cardiac problem, the wrong IV can make him worse or 
kill him. 

If you have the supplies, keep them for someone who knows what they are doing, and leave it at that.


----------



## jpotter (Aug 31, 2017)

indie said:


> I keep lactated ringer's on hand for my animals. It stores at room temperature as per packaging.
> 
> I don't know how to do IV either, but with the critters, you just inject it under the skin. It makes a big bubble that would be uncomfortable for awhile but will be absorbed into the body. I wonder if you couldn't do the same for humans.


Indie, subcutaneous administration of fluids is not a approved route in humans. You can give small amounts of certain medications in that manner, but that is it.


----------



## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

For Dehydration use the anal method to get fluids in if the person is not drinking. To make a oral re-hydration solution - Six (6) level teaspoons of Sugar.
Half (1/2) level teaspoon of Salt. One Liter of clean drinking or boiled water and then cooled - 5 cupfuls (each cup about 200 ml.) 

Unless you have other IV drugs to give you do not really need an IV. Giving someone who lost a lot of blood fluids can help but only to a point at some level the only thing that helps is to replace the blood.


----------



## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Learning how to give an IV is really quite simple and it has many many uses. Rapid recovery from severe dehydration, Increased blood volume for keeping your hear pumping, same basic principle used in blood transfusions. you can administer other medication via IV fluid for slower dispersion and longer retention.

I'D recommend folks learn how they are done and how to make their own supplies with tubing, needles, etc, in an emergency. For someone who has dissentary it would be a great way to keep them hydrated.


I've given them and gotten them in the back of a truck, moving over rough terrain, at night with a red lense flashlight.


----------



## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Denton said:


> Back in the early 80's, I dated an army medic. I was her pin cushion when she was getting certed to start IV's.
> 
> Two things I can promise you. I'll never again be a pin cushion for a trainee, and ain't no untrained person coming at me with an IV without first finding a way to restrain me.


The things a man will do for love .... Geez.


----------



## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

indie said:


> I keep lactated ringer's on hand for my animals. It stores at room temperature as per packaging.
> 
> I don't know how to do IV either, but with the critters, you just inject it under the skin. It makes a big bubble that would be uncomfortable for awhile but will be absorbed into the body. I wonder if you couldn't do the same for humans.


no- no -no- and no, the amount you would give would give would be so tiny it would make no difference and if you were trying to hit a vein guess what you missed and better turn that sucker off pronto!!
people say how easy it is to give an IV it is not hard no it isn't so stuff like this>>> -like yah man I did under extreme conditions no<<< -problem, again this was on fit and sturdy people look at the athletic types how the fruck can you miss those veins- now look a little kid or mr/mrs so-in-so riding the motorized shopping cart - you can't even guess were to start on some of those peeps.
but some of the stuff you can do with supplies is
use the expired bags for burns -just rip and pour
use the tubing for filtering water/ siphoning fluids out like power steering fluid 
stuff like that but please if you have never given an IV don't torcher someone trying -even on TV I saw a really bad F-up on a show that started out kind of cool but turned really weird and like way out there called ZOO the black guy gave an IV (and dude if you know what I am talking about you understand) stuck then walked across the room to get the tubing didn't loose the turny just pulled the needle out and walked off - in real life the poor person would have bled to death by the time he came back with the tubing. YAGH right I know it was a tv show but some people see this and think oh that's how you do it.


----------



## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

jpotter said:


> As I browse the many posts in this section I have ran across quite a few folk claiming to have IV supplies and fluid, admittedly without much experience on their application. So I would like to see everyone post what they have on hand for IV supplies, their experience level and any questions they may have and the resident medical professionals here can lend some of their expertise.
> 
> What is everyone's opinion on the practicality of this skill in a SHTF scenario?
> 
> ...


I see responses like this all the time from people claiming to be various level med professionals - usually aghast & utterly against stocking med supplies from antibiotics to sutures to in this case - IVs ...

a good prepper tries to be as wide ranging in their knowledge and abilities as possible - learning enough that they can stockpile supplies and spares of the correct variety and quality .... sure there's preppers and people in general that are very unwisely self medicating and not seeking proper medical care - but that shouldn't interfere with a prepper preparing for life or death situations ....

in a serious SHTF the med centers and hospitals won't last long - either overrun and destroyed or just plain depleted of supplies .... med professionals will most likely survive and seeking resources to re-establish themselves in another venue - having med supplies available will solve half the equation toward professional med care post SHTF ....


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

A Watchman said:


> The things a man will do for love .... Geez.


I traded her in for a drink server at the blackjack tables in Reno.


----------



## jpotter (Aug 31, 2017)

Ilini, that was meant as a disclaimer, in every day to day life you shouldn't be doing something you are norlt trained on. The legal and saftey concerns are real, however with little training and decent experience a IV is a simple procedure most anyone can do In the SHTF scenario. Im not advising against adding it to your supplies, simply trying to provoke everyone to gather the proper information to go along with your preps. Thank you.


----------



## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Medic33 said:


> ....now look a little kid or mr/mrs so-in-so riding the motorized shopping cart - you can't even guess were to start on some of those peeps.
> but some of the stuff you can do with supplies is
> use the expired bags for burns -just rip and pour
> use the tubing for filtering water/ siphoning fluids out like power steering fluid
> stuff like that but please if you have never given an IV don't torcher someone trying -even on TV I saw a really bad F-up on a show that started out kind of cool but turned really weird and like way out there called ZOO the black guy gave an IV (and dude if you know what I am talking about you understand) stuck then walked across the room to get the tubing didn't loose the turny just pulled the needle out and walked off - in real life the poor person would have bled to death by the time he came back with the tubing. YAGH right I know it was a tv show but some people see this and think oh that's how you do it.




Medic 33 is correct. It's actually something that many Nurses don't do very well, but to me it was simple to learn and we just practiced a lot. even giving ourselves IV's in the ankles. and I have given many in Africa and Asskrackistan to folks who weren't healthy or who already had severe trauma and Low BP. even doing a Venous cut down once.

The point is to at least understand how to do it and practice (use an IV tube filled with red dyed water and place it under some skin from a pig or even chicken. or buy smaller tubing to use.

To me its better than needing to do one and not knowing how. and understand that its for SHTF, and your not Dr. Doogie Howzer.


----------



## Nina9mm (Aug 16, 2017)

Great thread!
I've been a nurse for 21 years and if I had a dime for every IV bag I've hung.....
I say HUNG because its one thing to do that, another thing entirely to start the IV. I am not an expert, and am not looking forward to a day when I might have to do it. Still, in a life or death situation, I'm going to try.


----------



## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

We have a ton of medical supplies but only those supplies we have actual knowledge of using.

Therefore, we don't have IV bags. Since many of our friends are doctors and nurses, perhaps we should, but we don't.


----------



## jpotter (Aug 31, 2017)

Nina9mm,
You've never started a IV as a nurse?


----------



## Nina9mm (Aug 16, 2017)

jpotter said:


> Nina9mm,
> You've never started a IV as a nurse?


Oh I have, sure. My background is med/surg, but there were specialized IV teams whose one and only job is to start IVs. We were responsible for maintaining them once started, but the experts were the ones doing the starts. I could do it in a pinch, but appreciate the skills of those who do it all the time and make is seem effortless!


----------



## jpotter (Aug 31, 2017)

Ah, med surg makes sense.


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

I learned to give IV's in Combat Lifesavers class. Later I got a decent amount of practice giving/starting IV's for my buddies in my National Guard unit the morning following a long night drinking......Very helpful in shortening a hang over. IV's are easy to learn how to do.


----------



## SierraGhost (Feb 14, 2017)

jpotter said:


> 1) What is everyone's opinion on the practicality of this skill in a SHTF scenario?
> 
> 2) How do you plan on using this skill and how will you include this in your treatment plans? Just as importantly how will you access the effectiveness of your treatment?
> 
> 3) Btw I don't advocate anyone without proper licensing and training performing a invasive procedure such as this in everyday to day life.


1a) I believe this is a good skill to personally have or at least have in your community. The ability to access and treat patients is critical.
2a) I put in IVs everyday, so they are a part of my skill set. I carry IV supplies in my get home bag as well as a large assortment of other supplies at home.
3a) I agree, this isn't something to casually undertake.


----------



## warrior4 (Oct 16, 2013)

If you don't know what you're doing please leave it the the pros. If SHTF someone hands me some IV supplies to start an IV on someone because they know I'm a paramedic I'd honestly say I'd be kind of hesitant to start that IV and administer those fluids. I'm not saying I wouldn't, but I'd just have to be careful about what I was using and would want to look over everything very carefully. Post-SHTF I doubt anyone is going to sue me for a wrong procedure, but ethically I still wouldn't want to harm a person by administering a potentially unknown substance.

That being said I currently don't have any IV supplies in my preps. It usually takes a prescription in my area to get the actual needles and fluids legally and I'm not sure it would work for me to go up to the ER docs and ask for a script like that. It's not that I can't get them. I could easily grab some start supplies or saline bags off any ambulance in our fleet and I doubt anyone would notice them missing, however I consider that stealing. Post-SHTF things might be different of course, but as of right now I'll stick to those things I can buy myself or that I can get permission from my boss to take.


----------



## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

Nina9mm said:


> Oh I have, sure. My background is med/surg, but there were specialized IV teams whose one and only job is to start IVs. We were responsible for maintaining them once started, but the experts were the ones doing the starts. I could do it in a pinch, but appreciate the skills of those who do it all the time and make is seem effortless!


oh yah the IV teams I actually think those guys are vampires they are faster than jimmy johns like freak freaky fast.


----------



## Crunch (Dec 12, 2019)

indie said:


> I keep lactated ringer's on hand for my animals. It stores at room temperature as per packaging.
> 
> I don't know how to do IV either, but with the critters, you just inject it under the skin. It makes a big bubble that would be uncomfortable for awhile but will be absorbed into the body. I wonder if you couldn't do the same for humans.


Fluids can be administered subcutaneously in humans, it's called hypodermoclysis or just clysis. NS or LR, about 1ml / minute or about 1.5L per day, or twice that if using a second site. Not much use for fluid resuscitation but useful for fluid maintenance or treating dehydration.

Clysis is where I started when I wanted to learn about parenteral fluid admin, after reading and watching some youtube videos I bought the Ditch Medicine DVD by Hugh Coffee. Highly recommend it if wanting to learn this outside of formal training, he starts with clysis using a winged infusion set, then how to start an IV using the winged infusion sets, then IV using an IV catheter. I've never tried using an IV catheter, because I want to practice it on myself first and catheters are tougher to use one handed, but the winged/butterfly sets are fairly easy to start an IV with using only one hand. The sets are available up to about 18 gauge size, so not really large bore but better than nothing. Just my 2 cents as a new guy here, but if wanting to learn how to administer fluids parenterally I'd start with rectal first and clysis next, then IV if you want to go further.


----------



## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Denton said:


> I traded her in for a drink server at the blackjack tables in Reno.


 @Denton, was he gentle?
You know I love you, couldn't resist.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Deebo said:


> @Denton, was he gentle?
> You know I love you, couldn't resist.


You're an asshole, and I mean that in a kindred way, Brother.


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Crunch said:


> Fluids can be administered subcutaneously in humans, it's called hypodermoclysis or just clysis. NS or LR, about 1ml / minute or about 1.5L per day, or twice that if using a second site. Not much use for fluid resuscitation but useful for fluid maintenance or treating dehydration.
> 
> Clysis is where I started when I wanted to learn about parenteral fluid admin, after reading and watching some youtube videos I bought the Ditch Medicine DVD by Hugh Coffee. Highly recommend it if wanting to learn this outside of formal training, he starts with clysis using a winged infusion set, then how to start an IV using the winged infusion sets, then IV using an IV catheter. I've never tried using an IV catheter, because I want to practice it on myself first and catheters are tougher to use one handed, but the winged/butterfly sets are fairly easy to start an IV with using only one hand. The sets are available up to about 18 gauge size, so not really large bore but better than nothing. Just my 2 cents as a new guy here, but if wanting to learn how to administer fluids parenterally I'd start with rectal first and clysis next, then IV if you want to go further.


At a younger age, when in junior high(age 16), I worked in the local St. Vincent hospital one summer in hematology.

I was a trained monkey, doing several jobs, staining with Colpin jars, WBC and RBC cell counting, and venial puncturing.

I worked an evening shift 3-9 PM, use to go around drawing blood from those who needed monitoring.

In many cases I was called upon to substitute for an IV nurse( who was with her lover somewhere).

Most of the nurses on duty at that time of the day were second year trainees, from the hospital nursing school.

Also did subcutaneous and intramuscular injection for some of the girls, who at the time were squeamish about it.

I set up IV drips for all kinds of solutions including shunt feeds.

I don't remember all that much about it, was 62 years ago.

I quit after one incident where a patient died while I was drawing his blood for a Co2 count,

didn't need the count which was to see how close he was to dying.

What is interesting is that I remembered how to do the process and did so without thinking with my daughter when she was stricken.

Today I am back at the hematology as a self teaching student and doing lab work in such.


----------

