# The enemy at SHTF



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

As far as I understand, lots of people/preppers fears gangs, or whatever, but anyhow people from places not close to them roaming around and plunder & pillage. They fear "the others". 

I do think that is a misconseption, my guess is that when SHTF there will be no fuel, and if you have fuels, the roads will be problematic to travel on. The gangs will not get far, nor will you, or anyone. 

So those that you should fear are your neighbours (relativly), those that are close enogh to walk to your place. Those are the ones you most probably will have to deal with. 

And the most dangerous gangs that will form will be gangs of former cops. they are orgenised, now the area and have lots of weapons. They might not be able to grow food, but they will be hungry and come look for it. 

Anyhow, it has been a while I hope everyone is in good order!


----------



## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Nice to see you, SS. The cops may have lots of guns, but over here in the US, so do the rest of us.


----------



## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

You should worry about Dehydration, Starvation, Sanitation, and Diseases before you do "gangs." I'm not saying they aren't a threat, but I just think (myself included) we get way into the guns/defense/security department and don't focus as much on grocery//medicine cabinet department. Not to mention that one of those neighbors your terrified of is a doctor and another is an electrician, neither may own guns and is looking for somebody to provide them protection in lieu of emergency services being suspended.


----------



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

sideKahr said:


> Nice to see you, SS. The cops may have lots of guns, but over here in the US, so do the rest of us.


Yes, I know about you, but our cops dont really have that many guns... and there are really not many cops either...


----------



## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

Fear is a funny word- I do not fear gangs or even Gangs of former cops.... LOL

I do not fear me neighbors... I am better armed, better trained, and better supplied

I fear "for" my family - that is why I have food, water, meds, and I promise i will buy a gun and some *bullets* next week

NO SIR, I do not fear the OTHERS, I have given it some thought and I have made plans - I know those plans will change and I have planned for the change...

fear, nah - I do not have time - I am busy living life, working, having fun and prepping


----------



## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

sideKahr said:


> Nice to see you, SS. The cops may have lots of guns, but over here in the US, so do the rest of us.


Yep... the cops will be a problem only until the Hunters and former active duty military folk take them out


----------



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

NotTooProudToHide said:


> You should worry about Dehydration, Starvation, Sanitation, and Diseases before you do "gangs." I'm not saying they aren't a threat, but I just think (myself included) we get way into the guns/defense/security department and don't focus as much on grocery//medicine cabinet department. Not to mention that one of those neighbors your terrified of is a doctor and another is an electrician, neither may own guns and is looking for somebody to provide them protection in lieu of emergency services being suspended.


especially dehydration might be a major problem, that happens a lot lot faster than starvation. A person can survive suprisingly long on only water. not so long without it.

But you are correct. My point were mostly that it will be those living close by that would want to get some or all of your stuff. not far away gangs.


----------



## baldman (Apr 5, 2016)

I only fear what others force me to do. It will be there choice not mine. I hope they are prepared for the reckoning.


----------



## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

I believe most police officers local, state, and federal are going to be part of the solution rather than the problem. Speaking from personal experience, most of them are great guys/gals that really want to do good in their communities, things would have to be pretty far gone for them to be the threat described in this thread. The problem is going to be emergency services are suspended and for a period the police aren't going to protect everybody.

Swedishsocialist, thats my opinion on police in the United States, I have no clue how the officers are over there.


----------



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

Slippy's-Attorney said:


> Fear is a funny word- I do not fear gangs or even Gangs of former cops.... LOL
> 
> I do not fear me neighbors... I am better armed, better trained, and better supplied
> 
> ...


An american prepper without a gun? how.. how... well.. dont know how to put it.. but that sounds really unamerican...


----------



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

NotTooProudToHide said:


> I believe most police officers local, state, and federal are going to be part of the solution rather than the problem. Speaking from personal experience, most of them are great guys/gals that really want to do good in their communities, things would have to be pretty far gone for them to be the threat described in this thread. The problem is going to be emergency services are suspended and for a period the police aren't going to protect everybody.


well, that depends on the senario. in a major collapse they will go hungry and so will their family. they will not get paid, and they will not have fuel for their cars. they will see to themselfs first, as will most people.


----------



## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

Swedishsocialist said:


> An american prepper without a gun? how.. how... well.. dont know how to put it.. but that sounds really unamerican...


I had some but I sold them to a blind guy up in canada


----------



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

Slippy's-Attorney said:


> I had some but I sold them to a blind guy up in canada


that dont sounds like a good idea, how do you he dont plan to invade the US with those guns?


----------



## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

Swedishsocialist said:


> that dont sounds like a good idea, how do you he dont plan to invade the US with those guns?


because he was blind...


----------



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> because he was blind...


... and you thought I was beeing serious?


----------



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

but when I think about it, there seems to be a lot of americans that even a blind could hit..


----------



## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

In my experience, at least here, neighbors look out for each other. After a severe weather event like a tornado, people piur their own resources into helping their neighbors. I know this isn't the case in some places as they lie their helplessly flailing waiting on the government to rescue them, but here, we do for one another. I don't see that changing any time soon. The major population centers would be an altogether different scenario.


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Cops? I am a former one, retired after 20 years part time on the local dept.
Many of those who were on the dept. will be here with their families.
As far as water goes, will never run out, river in back and lake in front, and the current ability to filter 100 gallons of potable a day of it.
As far as gangs go, they will be pretty much cut down before they ever get to this area, the firepower available here would render them impotent in short order.
Remainder of such vandals would be terminated.


----------



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Swedishsocialist said:


> As far as I understand, lots of people/preppers fears gangs, or whatever, but anyhow people from places not close to them roaming around and plunder & pillage. They fear "the others".
> I do think that is a misconseption, my guess is that when SHTF there will be no fuel, and if you have fuels, the roads will be problematic to travel on. The gangs will not get far, nor will you, or anyone.
> So those that you should fear are your neighbours (relativly), those that are close enogh to walk to your place. Those are the ones you most probably will have to deal with.
> And the most dangerous gangs that will form will be gangs of former cops. they are orgenised, now the area and have lots of weapons. They might not be able to grow food, but they will be hungry and come look for it.
> Anyhow, it has been a while I hope everyone is in good order!


Swedishsocialist,
Allow me to pose a contrary opinion, those gangs of roving crowds, are a spectacular danger, since they have the numbers to attack any house. 
Seventy five people would be impossible to stop, but I would die trying. People can walk great distances in search of food and water and shelter, and it is hard to say how far they might get. 
Gangs of former cops, and gangs of former soldiers would be dangerous, but they would not be any more dangerous, than civilians driven mad with hunger.

There would be danger at every turn, if society had a meltdown and ceased to function properly. And everyone would be going haywire.:armata_PDT_25:


----------



## 1895gunner (Sep 23, 2012)

I agree you could spend time worrying about the gangs and whoever however, I'm concentrating on prepping for now. I enjoy these posts because I like to see what others think about. I sure can't think of everything myself!

1895gunner


----------



## Swedishsocialist (Jan 16, 2015)

MisterMills357 said:


> Swedishsocialist,
> Allow me to pose a contrary opinion, those gangs of roving crowds, are a spectacular danger, since they have the numbers to attack any house.
> Seventy five people would be impossible to stop, but I would die trying. People can walk great distances in search of food and water and shelter, and it is hard to say how far they might get.
> Gangs of former cops, and gangs of former soldiers would be dangerous, but they would not be any more dangerous, than civilians driven mad with hunger.
> ...


This only apply if they live close by. If you live close to gangs.. well then you prepping was not really that good.

In a major SHTF people will be stuck. you, them, cops so what you see around you is what you get.. kind of


----------



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Swedishsocialist said:


> This only apply if they live close by. If you live close to gangs.. well then you prepping was not really that good.
> In a major SHTF people will be stuck. you, them, cops so what you see around you is what you get.. kind of


OK, but, the best laid plans of mice and men....usually means that the mice are in the corn meal, having a happy dance.
The Short Saga Of Slow Poke Rodriguez.


----------



## Targetshooter (Dec 4, 2015)

I will fend for my wife and I and dog ,, everyone else has to do there part ,, if they are not ready for when SHTF ,, well ,, it's on them ,, we are able to do just so much for us ,, we can't look out for others ,, my family understands that ad they are doing what they have to do for them and we were told if we need help they will do what ever they can at the time ,, that's all they can do ,, once the SHTF we are going to lock down ,, lock & load .


----------



## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

Street gang's won't be much of a problem after SHTF. No drugs to sell no money. No money no power. No power people have no fear of them. They'll be too busy killing each other off for the remaining resources they might have.


----------



## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

A good thing about all of these posts is ,we can discuss all kinds of different scenarios and what ifs, you can prepare and train, it all helps ,but you can never predict what will happen or who you will meet, good or bad, with proper training some reactions will be instinctive,some we will have to think about, the later will be the most dangerous. Personally I would always be in a defensive posture until provoked, I have no desire to bring ill will on anyone. As far as gangs and the like, a keen eye to avoid would be my first choice, if caught off guard, well, you always save the last bullet for yourself... I would take as many of them as I could with me, less for someone else to deal with.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Not called fear it is called being prepared. You get ready for what could happen. The City rats will fan out to steal what ever they can. How far they get depends on a lot of things. One thing for sure LE will not have the numbers to stop them.


----------



## txmarine6531 (Nov 18, 2015)

Down here dehydration is a "fear" of mine. I'm not worried about gangs. I think the gangs will stick to what they know, the city. There may be a gang or two running around the country side, but I'm still not worried. I will most likely be alone, therefore mobile and much lower profile.


----------



## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Unless these gangs are preppers, and have ammo stashed, think they will die off just like all the other sheep. They never learned to fend for themselves. Besides looting and terror. jmo.


----------



## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

Oddcaliber said:


> Street gang's won't be much of a problem after SHTF. No drugs to sell no money. No money no power. No power people have no fear of them. They'll be too busy killing each other off for the remaining resources they might have.


food and water will be the new drug.. they are willing to kill for power already.. and many live in cities with an unarmed populous... but plenty of resources..


----------



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Roving gangs are a possibility depending on where your at. You have to be aware. They gangs or an individual only have to be right once to catch you and yours. Best to have contingency planning. Think the Outlaw Josie Wales. It didn't take long for him to loose everything.


----------



## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

I have a neighbor that will get capped first thing. He has stated to my face several times about getting some friends and taking what I have. I'm not going to live looking behind my back everyday. I'm not afraid, I just know he is a big enough loser to try it.


----------



## txmarine6531 (Nov 18, 2015)

Chipper said:


> I have a neighbor that will get capped first thing. He has stated to my face several times about getting some friends and taking what I have. I'm not going to live looking behind my back everyday. I'm not afraid, I just know he is a big enough loser to try it.


My neighbor's dog is #1 on my list.


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Chipper said:


> I have a neighbor that will get capped first thing. He has stated to my face several times about getting some friends and taking what I have. I'm not going to live looking behind my back everyday. I'm not afraid, I just know he is a big enough loser to try it.


Know where you are coming from on that one, Not neighbors, but #1 cap jobs none the less.

If I see them post SHTF they are gone as soon as I can get a sight picture.

They have never said to my face anything, but The word does get back.


----------



## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

force multipliers learn what they can be ,might be, how to use and deploy them.


----------



## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

During the opening days of SHTF people in the city will loot and destroy because they can. Cops will suspend emergency services and try to go house to house to collect guns. Some will do it, some won't. After a few days, the looters will band together and go to the suburbs and try to loot. If no resistance from cops they will continue. When the suburbanites start shooting looters, things will get better. However, this will attract attention and cops will be deployed in the area to confiscate weapons. Rural dwellers will be in better shape. The cities will fall first followed by chaos in suburbia. If preparation was made, gangs won't be much of a problem. The biggest threat is the cops going house to house. But once the communities band together and resist confiscation, cops will back off. getting shot on duty during SHTF leaves their families open to victimization. Any cop with common sense won't risk that....


----------



## homegrownrose (Mar 24, 2016)

The gangs/looting/etc are things I've been thinking about more (thank you, Walking Dead). It all depends on exactly what S it is that HTF. Will things go down quickly? Will it go bad slowly, so that people adapt and submit to the new way of life? There are a lot of scenarios that could go into it. I think there are people paying attention - people like us. Some are preparing to care for themselves and their families - possibly to help their communities. Others are preparing to take what others have and intend to do anything they need to do to get it. Good guys, bad guys, everyone in between. We are smack in the middle of a huge city with a thriving gang problem. We try to keep our home relatively secure, and continue to beef up security. We have a bug out plan if need be, though we are hoping to stay here if we can. Family safety is paramount, however, so we will be keeping an eye on the situation and plan to watch things carefully and act strategically.


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Gangs will be a potential threat. Make no mistake.


----------



## txmarine6531 (Nov 18, 2015)

6811 said:


> During the opening days of SHTF people in the city will loot and destroy because they can. Cops will suspend emergency services and try to go house to house to collect guns. Some will do it, some won't. After a few days, the looters will band together and go to the suburbs and try to loot. If no resistance from cops they will continue. When the suburbanites start shooting looters, things will get better. However, this will attract attention and cops will be deployed in the area to confiscate weapons. Rural dwellers will be in better shape. The cities will fall first followed by chaos in suburbia. If preparation was made, gangs won't be much of a problem. The biggest threat is the cops going house to house. But once the communities band together and resist confiscation, cops will back off. getting shot on duty during SHTF leaves their families open to victimization. Any cop with common sense won't risk that....


I don't think cops will stick around for very long. Especially if they have a family of their own. The single guys and die hard guys probably will, but even if the whole force stayed, there aren't enough to curb the violence that will occur. They have a hard enough time as it is, not to degrade their efforts, they do the best they can with what they have. They just don't have the manpower and some (departments as a whole) are too afraid to do what's needed because of public image or political reasons or whatever. The smart and experienced cops will (hopefully) be able to identify the good guys with guns, who carry for protection, and leave them alone. People like us are the ones who don't want this to happen the most. Look at what all we talk about. We go through so many scenarios (many based on history) in these discussions, we know what can and might happen. Many many people have no clue. And if things do go south, they are gonna lose their mind trying to figure out what to do. That, IMO, is how some of the gangs will form. They have a common problem, no lasting supplies. Solution, band together and take it from those who do. Kill if they have to. They have a family who needs food and water. I'm outta here is SHTF. Like I said before, I'm alone here, I'll pack up what I can in the truck and break out! Hopefully we will see this coming and have a little time set our plans in motion before the masses catch on. I'm deep enough into the city, it would take forever (if I even could), to get out of the city.


----------



## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

I don't live in a city, but I'm about 10 miles from one , so whe the horde migration begins it won't take long to get to me, depending on the scenario, I may not stick around, I have alternatives but will have to be on foot to do this, if I have to leave I plan on burning everything I leave behind, don't want to leave anything that can be used against me or anyone else,as far as neighbors and friends, most people I know live in a different world, ( the government will take care of), so my wife and I will be on our own, we have discussed and planned, best laid plans are always subject to change, we have supplies about 3 days away, we will have enough with us for 7, I really don't know what else we can do, never any guarantees...


----------



## txmarine6531 (Nov 18, 2015)

I'd give it a week or so before the city folk begin migrating outwards.


----------



## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

Like I said, things would have to be pretty far gone before I would fear the military/police. We're talking like a Walking Dead or Red Dawn style scenario which I believe both are highly unlikely. What concerns me far more would be a Katrina or other storm of the century/New Madrid Fault line quake/Civil Disturbance/Riot/EMP/Solar Flare/or a physical/kinetic attack against the power grid. In all these scenarios services would be immediately suspended at least in a localized area and first responders would be more than overwhelmed but it would be a localized and or temporary event. Rule of law would eventually be restored. The first couple of days you wouldn't see much of a difference but if the days without services become weeks then all the sudden humans (particularly the hungry/thirsty ones) start to de evolve to a more savage creature and seek the resources they lack. That is when things are going to be dangerous.


And that my friends is why I'm training savage Chihuahua attack dogs.


----------



## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

You make good points, desperate people do desperate things. If things do go that bad people will group together for protection and for survival, including most of us. Problem as I forsee it, is when choosing a group to align, not finding yourself a part of the very thing you are seeking protection from. Let's pray it never goes that far downhill.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Just run down the list of crimes in cities near you in the last year. Note the gang crimes. Some of those people got locked up , most did not. What makes you think they are going to all of the sudden stop their crimes when SHTF. They are going to get worst.


----------



## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Just run down the list of crimes in cities near you in the last year. Note the gang crimes. Some of those people got locked up , most did not. What makes you think they are going to all of the sudden stop their crimes when SHTF. They are going to get worst.


You bet they will, first on their agenda after they figure out there is no law, is to shoot it out with rival gangs for control of the turf.
That is good, many of them will die, the more the better.
After they have consumed all the food and booze in their area, they will move out looking for more.
None of them can really shoot worth a damn, that is an advantage, best to engage at longer distances, giving you the advantage.
With them, (gangs) all have to be taken out, allowing none to report back, they may be a recon group for the rest.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Cops are nice. Get a grip and quit listening to Bernie and the Hildebeast so much. Worry about your undocumented muzzies. 
Shocking: Sweden is now the RAPE capital of the West. Here's why... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com


----------



## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

bigwheel said:


> Cops are nice. Get a grip and quit listening to Bernie and the Hildebeast so much. Worry about your undocumented muzzies.
> Shocking: Sweden is now the RAPE capital of the West. Here's why... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com


very true.... however, it also depends where and which agency we are talking about. there are good cops in all departments, unfortunately there are a lot of cops now that has no clue which is an unconstitutional orders. a lot think that because they were ordered to, then they have to do it.


----------



## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

txmarine6531 said:


> I don't think cops will stick around for very long. Especially if they have a family of their own. The single guys and die hard guys probably will, but even if the whole force stayed, there aren't enough to curb the violence that will occur. They have a hard enough time as it is, not to degrade their efforts, they do the best they can with what they have. They just don't have the manpower and some (departments as a whole) are too afraid to do what's needed because of public image or political reasons or whatever. The smart and experienced cops will (hopefully) be able to identify the good guys with guns, who carry for protection, and leave them alone. People like us are the ones who don't want this to happen the most. Look at what all we talk about. We go through so many scenarios (many based on history) in these discussions, we know what can and might happen. Many many people have no clue. And if things do go south, they are gonna lose their mind trying to figure out what to do. That, IMO, is how some of the gangs will form. They have a common problem, no lasting supplies. Solution, band together and take it from those who do. Kill if they have to. They have a family who needs food and water. I'm outta here is SHTF. Like I said before, I'm alone here, I'll pack up what I can in the truck and break out! Hopefully we will see this coming and have a little time set our plans in motion before the masses catch on. I'm deep enough into the city, it would take forever (if I even could), to get out of the city.


when the SHTF, cops wont even try to curb violence by tackling the violent people. they will not go after them. what they will do is try to restrict people from having access to weapons to show people that they are trying to curb the violence, which we all know would only cause more violence because the people will be unable to defend themselves. As far as leaving the good guys alone, you can forget that. there will be no weapons allowed, period. this is exactly what was done during katrina. the cops could not and did not confront the looters and the gangs who were causing problems. instead they looked for people evacuating who brought their weapons because they dont want them to fall in the hands of criminal looters. they all got confiscated and some where destroyed on sight. the sad part of this is, some cops actually participated in this illegal acts. shame on you New Orleans PD.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> Cops are nice. Get a grip and quit listening to Bernie and the Hildebeast so much. Worry about your undocumented muzzies.
> Shocking: Sweden is now the RAPE capital of the West. Here's why... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com


 I support LEO. However when SHTF they are helpless against protected class gangs. They are now for the most part.


----------



## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

I guess I'm fortunate to live in a good area. Most of our crime are thefts from vehicles, acts committed under the influence of drugs/alcohol, baby mamma drama, dope related offense, or a combination of all. The biggest shtf we've had in my lifetime was the 2009 icestorm.


----------



## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

I would probably put my TV set and old boom box out in the yard and I'll be good to go, watch the news, when bad things happen, that's what they steal. (Sarcasm)


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

In another life long ago I had occasion to know a few gang members from and just a word. Do not underestimate some of these guys in gangs. While most are violent psychopaths and their elevators don't go to the top the are ruthless and cunning. A lot are ex military and quite capable. Motorcycle gangs would be most dangerous as they know organization and have a command structure. Plus they are mobile. Most, I am sure, will be among the initial die off through attrition, disease, drug withdrawal, infighting, etc. But there will be survivors and they will be the very best of the very worst.


----------



## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I don't worry too much about gangs. I worry about the 4 million people in the city an hour way showing up in tiny groups. It would be difficult to stay on alert 24 hours a day for months even with the intruder alerts around the property.


----------



## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Swedishsocialist said:


> As far as I understand, lots of people/preppers fears gangs, or whatever, but anyhow people from places not close to them roaming around and plunder & pillage. They fear "the others".
> 
> I do think that is a misconseption, my guess is that when SHTF there will be no fuel, and if you have fuels, the roads will be problematic to travel on. The gangs will not get far, nor will you, or anyone.
> 
> ...


Hey Swede

Sorry for all the chest thumping, as Americans we rarely think about the problems outside our country and as we can own guns and oppose authority we don't walk a mile in your sandals and truly think about the conditions outside the USA.

I can only think about how bad it makes you feel that in a socialist country over serveral decades you have found that class warfare and envy still exist. You live in a 10 square meter apartment and pay half your wages to the government and have no class mobility, why do you bitch and moan, isn't that fair? At least all of you are even, isn't that what you wanted?

You are all even aren't you? Oh except for those pesky cops, yea they have a badge and a gun but (as you have none) no problem. Oh and don't pay attention to the flood of muslums into your country, besides groping and raping your daughters, you are very safe. Oh and turn in those pesky baseball bats and butcher knives as well, no sense in pissing off the immigrants.

Like in America, I hope you live in the Alps where at least you can see them coming.


----------



## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Courage is not the absence of fear, rather action in the face of fear.

Those of you who say you are not afraid are either lying or fools. We are all afraid. We will all be afraid when SHTF. That is just the way things are. We will not however, allow the fear to control us. We will act in the face of fear. 

That is an important distinction. Training yourself to deny fear is setting yourself up for failure. Training yourself to FEEL the fear and act anyway is what will teach you and prepare you for real life situations. That is what stops you from freezing. That is what creates consistent results. Fear, feel the fear, acknowledge the fear, and do what it is that you fear doing or experiencing anyway.


----------



## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

Slippy's-Attorney said:


> Yep... the cops will be a problem only until the Hunters and former active duty military folk take them out


SA
I can tell you THEY will be the target, not the other way around....
Why?- Their equipment, vests, guns (Full-Auto), vehicles. tactical gear, 1st aid packs, radios.
Followed by fireman and ems, especially in urban environments.
Some of you need to re-think your thinking...


----------

