# LGBTQ Catholics stung by Vatican rebuff of same-sex unions.



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

The Vatican’s declaration that same-sex unions are a sin the Roman Catholic Church cannot bless was no surprise for LGBTQ Catholics in the United States — yet it stung deeply nonetheless. Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA, said her organization’s membership includes same-sex couples who have been together for decades, persevering in their love for one another in the face of bias and family rejection.

March 15, 2021
“The fact that our church at its highest levels cannot recognize the grace in that and cannot extend any sort of blessing to these couples is just tragic,” she said. She was responding to a formal statement Monday from the Vatican’s orthodoxy office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, saying Roman Catholic clergy may not bless such unions since God "cannot bless sin.” It was approved by Pope Francis.

Having sin be explicitly included in this statement kind of brings us back to zero,” said Ross Murray, who oversees religious issues for the LGBTQ rights group GLAAD. He expressed dismay that “the ability for us to live out our lives fully and freely is still seen as an affront to the church or, worse yet, an affront to God, who created us and knows us and loves us.”

Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry, which advocates for greater LGBTQ acceptance in the church, said that if those priests who have already been blessing same-sex unions now stop doing so, lay Catholics could be moved to take their place.

“If priests and pastoral ministers no longer feel they can perform such a blessing, the Catholic laity will step in and perform their own rituals,” DeBernardo said. “The toothpaste is out of the tube, and it can’t be put back inside.”

The Rev. Bryan Massingale, an openly gay Catholic priest and professor of theology and social ethics at Fordham University, said priests who want to engage in pastoral outreach to the gay and lesbian community “will continue to do so, except that it will be even more under the table ... than it was before.”

For Catholics in same-sex relationships, he said, the Vatican’s new message will hurt. “Every human being is born with this innate desire to love,” he said. “For those who are oriented toward members of the same sex ... to have it being described as inherently or innately sinful without any qualification, that is crushing.”

Vatican doctrine holds that gays and lesbians should be treated with dignity and respect, but that gay sex is “intrinsically disordered” and that same-sex unions are sinful. Natalia Imperatori-Lee, a professor of religious studies at Manhattan College, said those teachings, put together, are problematic.

“It boggles the mind that the hierarchy can affirm that LGBTQ+ persons are made in the image of God but that their unions are a sin,” she said via email. “Are they made in God’s image with the exception of their hearts? With the exception of their abilities and inclinations to love?"

Sister Simone Campbell, executive director of the U.S.-based NETWORK Lobby for Catholic Social Justice and an advocate for greater LGBTQ inclusion in the church, said she was relieved the Vatican statement wasn’t harsher.

She interpreted it as saying, “You can bless the individuals (in a same-sex union), you just can’t bless the contract.” “So it’s possible you could have a ritual where the individuals get blessed to be their committed selves.”

The Vatican's pronouncement was welcomed by some church conservatives, however, such as Bill Donohue, president of the New York-based Catholic League. “There will be no recognition of homosexual unions or marriage by the Catholic Church. It is non-negotiable. End of story,” he said.

“Pope Francis has been under considerable pressure by gay activists, in and out of the church, to give the green light to gay marriage,” Donohue added, calling Monday’s statement “the most decisive rejection of those efforts ever written.”

Francis has endorsed providing legal protections for same-sex couples, but that is in the civil sphere and not the church. Juan Carlos Cruz, a Chilean advocate for sex-abuse victims who is gay, reported in 2018 that when he met with Francis, the pope had told him, “God made you like this, and he loves you."

On Monday, Cruz said the Vatican officials who issued the new statement “are completely in a world of their own, away from people and trying to defend the indefensible.” He called for a change in the leadership of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, saying it was undermining efforts by Francis to create a more inclusive church.

“If the church and the CDF do not advance with the world ... Catholics will continue to flee.” he said. In Francis’ homeland of Argentina, LGBTQ activist Esteban Paulon said earlier statements by the pontiff conveying empathy and understanding for gays and lesbians were mere gestures, lacking any official weight.

“They were not institutional pronouncements,” said Paulon, executive director of the Institute of Public Policies LGBT+. “Saying that homosexual practice is a sin takes us back 200 years and promotes hate speech that unfortunately in Latin America and Europe is on the rise.”

Chile’s largest LGBTQ rights group, the Movement for Homosexual Integration and Liberation, condemned the decree as a “homophobic and anti-Christian action” from the Catholic hierarchy. Spokesman Oscar Rementería contrasted the Vatican’s stern rhetoric against same-sex marriage with the many documented cases of Catholic leaders covering up child sex abuse committed by clergy.

Associated Press writers Eva Vergara in Santiago, Chile; Almudena Calatrava in Buenos Aires, Argentina; and Nicole Winfield in Rome and Mariam Fam in Cairo contributed to this report.

Associated Press religion coverage receives support from the Lilly Endowment through The Conversation U.S. The AP is solely responsible for this content.

Subjects Religion, General news, Civil unions, Marriage People Pope Francis Locations United States, North America








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## Black 5 (Apr 6, 2020)

I suggest they all truck on over to the Vatican, have a parade, and force the Catholic Church to amend it's archaic (and presumably racist) ways.
If not, we can send the antifa diplomatic corps there to negotiate.

The news coverage would have to beat anything on TV right now.


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## NKAWTG (Feb 14, 2017)

Love the sinner not the sin.
One can be gay and practice chastity and not live a sinful life.
Meaning the Catholic Church does not and should not tolerate sin.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

NKAWTG said:


> Love the sinner not the sin.
> One can be gay and practice chastity and not live a sinful life.
> Meaning the Catholic Church does not and should not tolerate sin.


It's like many are saying well maybe the Bible got it wrong. Or maybe we should just skip over that part. I don't think so. It says what it says.


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## NKAWTG (Feb 14, 2017)

inceptor said:


> It's like many are saying well maybe the Bible got it wrong. Or maybe we should just skip over that part. I don't think so. It says what it says.


Since the Bible is the inspired word of God, then saying the bible got it wrong is saying God got it wrong.
I wonder how churches that encourage same sex unions justify that?


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Black 5 said:


> I suggest they all truck on over to the Vatican, have a parade, and force the Catholic Church to amend it's archaic (and presumably racist) ways.
> If not, we can send the antifa diplomatic corps there to negotiate.
> 
> The news coverage would have to beat anything on TV right now.


Let the GLADD brigade prove any part of the Bible to be archaic, and I will right here waiting . 
They hate Genesis 19 because it has the story of Sodom & Gommarah in it. 

In that story the citizens surrounded Lots house, and were struck blind by the angels, before they could attack it. The people of Sodom were animals.

The Catholic church got it right on this.

Note to Black 5: the Vatican has a company of Swiss Guards who are armed with automatic rifles. 

Antifa looks for soft targets, not dangerous ones, so that’s why they choose places like San Francisco .
It is there that men climb other men’s flagpoles: and women dip in the honey wells of other women.
And Antifa loves that.


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## Black 5 (Apr 6, 2020)

I agree. That's what I meant by it being better than tv. I don't imagine the Swiss Guard would be progressive, tolerant, or be concerned with defunding.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

NKAWTG said:


> Since the Bible is the inspired word of God, then saying the bible got it wrong is saying God got it wrong.
> I wonder how churches that encourage same sex unions justify that?


The Metropolitan Community Church is homosexual, and they just skip over most of the Bible.
And they preach what they want to preach. I go by the one here inSaint Pete all of the time. It has an edifice (building) that is clad in purple granite; and it looks like a fancy office building, only more. They have a church sign out front, like every other church does; and it will have various messages, eg, come worship with us.

It is bizarre and perverse and it is a parody of Christianity.


inceptor said:


> It's like many are saying well maybe the Bible got it wrong. Or maybe we should just skip over that part. I don't think so. It says what it says.


What it says is an affront and an offense to the World at large. Maybe thats why so many Leftists are wont to be offended by so many things. They can kiss my ass.


Definition of wont:
wont
accustomed to; apt or likely: He is wont to make mistakes when he hurries.
Not to be confused with:
want – to desire greatly; need; lack: I really want a new car.
won't – will not: I won’t be able to go with you.









wont


Definition, Synonyms, Translations of wont by The Free Dictionary




www.thefreedictionary.com





See, I am only half as stupid as I act, and sometimes I know what I am talking about.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Black 5 said:


> I agree. That's what I meant by it being better than tv. I don't imagine the Swiss Guard would be progressive, tolerant, or be concerned with defunding.


They are protectors & killers, those are their primary functions. They are funded by the Vatican, which has billions of dollars, or I guess they are funded that way.
PS: don’t be so shy, wade in and say what you are thinking. That’s what everyone else does.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Not that I give a crap what the Communist Pope thinks or says, but I was certainly surprised that went this route.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

RedLion said:


> Not that I give a crap what the Communist Pope thinks or says, but I was certainly surprised that went this route.


Me too.


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## 2020 Convert (Dec 24, 2020)

The Vatican is a private organization and can come out and say what it wants.

Much like the owners of this site can say what is acceptable and not.

I wish the married guys or gals the best. Just don’t be throwing it in my face, and be demanding special treatment. 

Special Treatment has been going on in this country for too long. This is just an example of it going to the world stage.


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## Black 5 (Apr 6, 2020)

MisterMills357 said:


> They are protectors & killers, those are their primary functions. They are funded by the Vatican, which has billions of dollars, or I guess they are funded that way.
> PS: don’t be so shy, wade in and say what you are thinking. That’s what everyone else does.


Yeah.. haven't had much luck with that here lately.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

2020 Convert said:


> The Vatican is a private organization and can come out and say what it wants.
> 
> Much like the owners of this site can say what is acceptable and not.
> 
> ...


Hogwash. For instance no man will ever put his hands on me, and walk away in peace.
Time and reality will stop while I beat the dumb ape, until I feel better.


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## 2020 Convert (Dec 24, 2020)

MisterMills357 said:


> Hogwash. For instance no man will ever put his hands on me, and walk away in peace.
> Time and reality will stop while I beat the dumb ape, until I feel better.


Same with me.
But if they want to be together, it’s their choice. 
I have wanted wipe the smug smile off my wife’s ex many times. But it wouldn’t have gone well for her when she was painted as the anti gay person in front of the lesbian judge in all her court battles.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

These are such confusing times. I just want everyone to get to heaven.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Annie said:


> These are such confusing times. I just want everyone to get to heaven.


So does God. But He gave us free will and many seem to make the wrong choice.


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## 2020 Convert (Dec 24, 2020)

inceptor said:


> So does God. But He gave us free will and many seem to make the wrong choice.


Well said. And in the long run, it is his to judge.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

NKAWTG said:


> Since the Bible is the inspired word of God, then saying the bible got it wrong is saying God got it wrong.
> I wonder how churches that encourage same sex unions justify that?


One of the original Protestant Churches here in America, while we were still Colonies and not a country yet, was the Congregational Church.
Over the years, this became the United Church of Christ.
My wife and I were members. That's where we were married.
First, they embraced homsexuality. We were uncomfortable, but OUR church was still bible based. And we were supposed to hate the sin, but love the sinners.
It was when the national headquarters ruled that practicing homosexuals could be ordained and lead churches as ministers, that we renounced our membership and left.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Maybe it was in the part of the bible the church took out and disregards.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

2020 Convert said:


> Same with me.
> But if they want to be together, it’s their choice.
> I have wanted wipe the smug smile off my wife’s ex many times. But it wouldn’t have gone well for her when she was painted as the anti gay person in front of the lesbian judge in all her court battles.


No, it’s not their choice, that is silly, common sense dictates against homosexuality. But, leave it to America to contradict nature. I will contravene at every opportunity to call homosexuals hogs and sows.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Annie said:


> These are such confusing times. I just want everyone to get to heaven.


There are a whole bunch of em that are going to the other place, that is a tender feeling that you have, but Hell was built for sinners. It’s hard to live with sometimes, but God made the rules, and we follow them or else.

Overlook my hard words, I am not hateful, even when I sound like it. I love people dearly, but das ist verboten ( that is forbidden).


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

2020 Convert said:


> Same with me.
> But if they want to be together, it’s their choice.
> I have wanted wipe the smug smile off my wife’s ex many times. But it wouldn’t have gone well for her when she was painted as the anti gay person in front of the lesbian judge in all her court battles.



Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee.
Proverbs 2:11 KJV

I would keep my mouth shut in such a predicament. And I would keep it shut in front of a smug wife, or a dike judge. Depending on circumstance and milieu, neither is your friend.





__





Proverbs 2 KJV






biblehub.com


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

Religion and logic are two polar opposite concepts. They can not share the same arena or neither works as expected.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Murby said:


> Religion and logic are two polar opposite concepts. They can not share the same arena or neither works as expected.


Prove it. I’ll be right here if you are ever able to do that, then let’s talk some more.

QUOTE="Murby, post: 2100960, member: 21961"]
Religion and logic are two polar opposite concepts. They can not share the same arena or neither works as expected.
[/QUOTE]

The Quote feature misfired on me.


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

MisterMills357 said:


> Prove it. I’ll be right here if you are ever able to do that, then let’s talk some more.


That's easy.

Do you know why a church pastor calls his congregation his "flock".. its because they're his flock of sheep who need to be told how and what to think. 

The pastor even refers to himself as the shepherd..IE:Sheep Herder 

Conditioned and brainwashed from birth.. and sentenced to a life of ignorance. 

"Give me the child for 7 years and I'll give you the man". _Ignatius Loyola sometime around the year 1500. (that might have been Aristotle... )

What Loyola didn't know at the time is that it takes about 25 years for the prefrontal cortex of the human brain to mature, during which time, it can be "brainwashed" into believing almost anything if started at a young age. For the unfamiliar, that's the part of the brain responsible for rational thought processes. This is why religion has to be ingrained during childhood.

Translation: brainwashed 

The people who've been victimized by religion are not capable of even recognizing their own plight. Their beliefs aren't based on some personal choice they made, they're based on.. get this... Geography! How ridiculous is that? Its not what god they believe in, its what god they were brainwashed to believe in based on the location of some man made line.
If you're in the Americas or Europe, you were forced into Christianity, if you're in the middle east, you're forced into Islam, and India does Hindu. 

If religion was a personal choice, religious demographics would be dispersed.. but they're not, they're centralized.

The scary part is that even knowing these facts, their brains will justify and account for them. Brainwashing doesn't turn a person into a mindless zombie like some Hollywood movie, what it does is cause irrational beliefs to be rationalized with faulty logic and reasoning. 

I should add that I served my country to protect the right to believe anything anyone wants, to protect free speech and to fight against censorship like what we see with communism.. but that doesn't mean I agree with people's beliefs or what they say.

I get that people have all kinds of arguments for their religious beliefs.. such arguments usually fall under one more more fallacies.. bandwagon, tradition, appeal to consequences, and usually (almost universally) some ad hominem attack.. as well as a host of others.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Murby said:


> That's easy.
> 
> Do you know why a church pastor calls his congregation his "flock".. its because they're his flock of sheep who need to be told how and what to think.
> 
> ...


Man,please! Is that the best that you have? Get outa here. I am a long time Christian, and I went to Christ because I need a God. I am a walking wreck of a man, and I don’t claim to be anything but a wretch. 

Wretchedness is more than words in a hymn, and I embody it and I know it. You will never see me call myself good, and that is not a false humility.

I would be long gone if it weren’t for Christ, I would have blown my brains out; living in this world, is to live with wolves, who could care less if I blow myself away.

Christ is my everlasting God. And I would not leave Him for the World itself, I love Him and He loves me.


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

MisterMills357 said:


> Man,please! Is that the best that you have? Get outa here. I am a long time Christian, and I went to Christ because I need a God. I am a walking wreck of a man, and I don’t claim to be anything but a wretch.
> 
> Wretchedness is more than words in a hymn, and I embody it and I know it. You will never see me call myself good, and that is not a false humility.
> 
> ...


If that works for you then that's great. I have a different perspective with entirely different views. (obviously)

Everyone needs to do what works for them.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Murby said:


> If that works for you then that's great. I have a different perspective with entirely different views. (obviously)
> 
> Everyone needs to do what works for them.


No they don’t need to do what works for them, what they need to do is the just thing.
And what you wrote is as weak as water, and only leads to chaos.


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

MisterMills357 said:


> No they don’t need to do what works for them, what they need to do is the just thing.
> And what you wrote is as weak as water, and only leads to chaos.


Weak as water and leads to chaos? Please elaborate on that a bit because I'm not sure what you're trying to say.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Murby said:


> That's easy.
> 
> Do you know why a church pastor calls his congregation his "flock".. its because they're his flock of sheep who need to be told how and what to think.
> 
> ...


Talk about being brainwashed. You are the walking definition. 

The beautiful thing about Christianity is that You have to decide to be a follower of Christ. Don't want to follow Him? Don't. Want to? Do.

The U.S. was founded on Christian ethics, morals and principles. That is to say, Americans of all faiths and non-faiths have rights secured by our Christian foundation.

Look around. Christianity is being targeted while our individual freedoms and liberty are being assailed. It doesn't take a college degree to connect those dots. Me? I spent my youth standing between the Soviet Union and the West. Now, the Soviet Union mentality has infested D.C. Guess what. Our rights are given to us by a God you deny. Your rights are still yours. None of the deities of the religions you mentioned gave you any rights.

This government is second to God. That is to say, the government doesn't have the authority to take away the rights given to us by the ultimate Authority. Don't believe in the ultimate Authority? Your problem. Surrender your God-given rights to government. Your choice.


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

Denton said:


> Talk about being brainwashed. You are the walking definition.


You're using the term "brainwashed" inappropriately. Unlike many others, I have not been exposed to any continuous doctrine of beliefs. If you want to say I've been brainwashed, you'll need to identify the agenda or source that has had continuous access for long time frames. May I suggest you look up the meaning of indoctrination?



> The beautiful thing about Christianity is that You have to decide to be a follower of Christ. Don't want to follow Him? Don't. Want to? Do.


Why do you think you choose Christianity over Islam or Hindu or any of the other religions? Did you read the bible, then read the Koran, and decided on Christianity? Do you think you'd be a Christian if you were born and raised in Iraq or Saudi Arabia?



> The U.S. was founded on Christian ethics, morals and principles. That is to say, Americans of all faiths and non-faiths have rights secured by our Christian foundation.


Christian morality holds slavery as a divine institution.. and putting people to death for a plethora of stupid reasons. I could go on about slaughtering infants and raping wives, but I think I made my point. Have you even read the entire thing?? Yikes.. The book is basically its own hate crime.

By the way, I've read the entire bible AND the Koran.. Billions of people subscribing to some irrational belief system, I thought it wise to find out what it was all about. I'm pretty certain that 99.9% haven't actually read the doctrine they subscribe to. Something tells me that Sheep Herder points them to certain pages and hopes they ignore the rest.



> Look around. Christianity is being targeted while our individual freedoms and liberty are being assailed. It doesn't take a college degree to connect those dots. Me? I spent my youth standing between the Soviet Union and the West. Now, the Soviet Union mentality has infested D.C. Guess what. Our rights are given to us by a God you deny. Your rights are still yours. None of the deities of the religions you mentioned gave you any rights.


Ya, everything is being targeted these days.. Its a double edge sword.. If it can't survive scrutiny, then it needs to change.. As far as our rights, I agree completely.. But I think that's a function of population density. The more people, the more laws created. I was in the service in the 80's and have been married to a Russian for 20 years.



> This government is second to God. That is to say, the government doesn't have the authority to take away the rights given to us by the ultimate Authority. Don't believe in the ultimate Authority? Your problem. Surrender your God-given rights to government. Your choice.


From my perspective, that meaningless hogwash. You might want to look up the word authority because I don't think it means what you think it means. If the government didn't have the authority to take away your rights, there would be no such thing as an innocent person in prison. As far as "ultimate authority"..that's fine with me. If you want to believe some magical invisible sky fairy has some special powers, then go right ahead.. I served my country to protect the right to believe in, and say, anything you want, regardless of how ridiculous it is to me.

People in America are indoctrinated into Christianity, people in the middle east are indoctrinated into Islam.. I don't think thats complicated.. but it is a bit disturbing that the individuals think they had a choice in the matter.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Murby said:


> You're using the term "brainwashed" inappropriately. Unlike many others, I have not been exposed to any continuous doctrine of beliefs. If you want to say I've been brainwashed, you'll need to identify the agenda or source that has had continuous access for long time frames. May I suggest you look up the meaning of indoctrination?
> 
> 
> Why do you think you choose Christianity over Islam or Hindu or any of the other religions? Did you read the bible, then read the Koran, and decided on Christianity? Do you think you'd be a Christian if you were born and raised in Iraq or Saudi Arabia?
> ...


Can't come up with a writing on your own without copy-pasting segments? That tells me you are fragmented.
Let me give this a shot.



> You're using the term "brainwashed" inappropriately.


Absolutely not. You are too brainwashed to have a clue.



> Christian morality holds slavery as a divine institution..


Absolutely not. See the following.



> By the way, I've read the entire bible AND the Koran..


Your eyes ran over the words and your brain understood neither.



> People in America are indoctrinated into Christianity, people in the middle east are indoctrinated into Islam.. I don't think thats complicated.. but it is a bit disturbing that the individuals think they had a choice in the matter.


You live in a country that is founded upon Christian values. The rights you enjoy are anchored in Christian values and you are too privileged to understand that. 
You prefer to think that you and the government are the highest authorities. You can't insure the rights, rights that weren't created by you, and the government wants to remove those rights from you.

Were you as bright as you think you are, you'd realize that the only reason you can run your dumb mouth is because you are protected by documents anchored in Christian values that protect oral diarrhea. We wouldn't even notice your absence were you to be saying the same crap against Islam while living in Saudi Arabia.

Speaking of Islam, I have studied the Qu'ran, too. I didn't simply read the rambling mess but studied it. How good? Twenty years ago, I could move my way through Islamic forums and be mistaken for an imam. That you compare Christianity to Islam tell me that you are educated well beyond your intelligence.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Denton said:


> Speaking of Islam, I have studied the Qu'ran, too. I didn't simply read the rambling mess but studied it. How good? Twenty years ago, I could move my way through Islamic forums and be mistaken for an imam. That you compare Christianity to Islam tell me that you are educated well beyond your intelligence.


Yeah I've read the Qu'ran. One needs to know how others operate. That's quite the instruction book from a self proclaimed pedophile.

I take it @Murby hasn't read any of the federalists papers. 

As to slavery, Paul pretty much put an end to that with his letter to Philemon. Yet slavery was common in that world long before Christianity.

One thing I wonder about slavery. It's still common in the world today. Yet you hear nothing condemning it. Why is that?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Yeah I've read the Qu'ran. One needs to know how others operate. That's quite the instruction book from a self proclaimed pedophile.
> 
> I take it @Murby hasn't read any of the federalists papers.
> 
> ...


Not only hasn't Brilliant Boy not read the Federalist Papers or the Anti-Federalist Papers, he hasn't glanced through the Hadiths.
Brilliant Boy is a product of the edukashion system.


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

I said Christian morality holds slavery as divine.. to which you replied:


Denton said:


> Absolutely not. See the following.


Leviticus 25:44-46 
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly. 


LOL. You might want to read it again and then tell me about all that morality.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Murby said:


> I said Christian morality holds slavery as divine.. to which you replied:
> 
> Leviticus 25:44-46
> As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
> ...


As I said, you gloss over words but understand nothing.
Slavery was an institution. Christians were slaves. How were they to behave was the point of that.

You are an example of someone who can read words but not understand paragraphs.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Murby said:


> I said Christian morality holds slavery as divine.. to which you replied:
> 
> Leviticus 25:44-46
> As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
> ...


That's not holding slavery as divine, that was part of the world that was. There was no democracy at the time either, everyone had a king. Does that mean God is opposed to democracy?

And yet you don't address the slavery still going on today. There's big money in that.



> While over a hundred countries still have slavery, six countries have significantly high numbers:
> 
> India (18.4 million)
> China (3.4 million)
> ...









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Countries That Still Have Slavery 2022






worldpopulationreview.com


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Murby said:


> Weak as water and leads to chaos? Please elaborate on that a bit because I'm not sure what you're trying to say.


You’re a liar.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Murby said:


> If that works for you then that's great. I have a different perspective with entirely different views. (obviously)
> 
> Everyone needs to do what works for them.


Are you Ridin With Biden, and just using another handle? If I were a moderator, you would be history.
I can’t believe that I spent time in a NATO front line artillery battalion, for the likes of you.
America is a sick place now.


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

inceptor said:


> That's not holding slavery as divine, that was part of the world that was.


That's the exact point I was making.. If Christian morality and values are superior, why didn't the bible speak out against slavery instead of endorsing it? The excuse "That's the way it was back then" doesn't fly in the face of divine doctrine. And we're only talking about slavery, there are plenty of other examples.



> There was no democracy at the time either, everyone had a king. Does that mean God is opposed to democracy?


I'm not a history buff or expert.. it never interested me much, but I believe Rome was a democracy.. technically a republic.. 500 BC So apparently it was around at that time.



> And yet you don't address the slavery still going on today. There's big money in that.


Right and wrong (morality) don't change because the date on a calendar moves forward, the only thing that changes is our own perception as humanity matures. If the sky fairy was real, the bible, regardless of current human behavior at the time, would have set things straight.

Rational logic does not allow one to say: This all powerful divine being created a doctrine to follow but we think part of it is wrong so we have dismissed that part and no longer follow it. 

I'm going to step out as my purpose here was to share prepping ideas, not bash people's beliefs and get everyone angry.. As I was saying before, religious indoctrination is done at an early age before a child's brain can develop rational thought. The effects of this early manipulation causes irrational behaviors.. IE: Question it and you get attacked. And judging by the responses in this thread, (Not your responses.. thank you!) people get triggered and angry. 

I respect your opinion as you have expressed it with intelligence and maturity. I'd like to get back to prepping stuff now because, by my calculations, our financial system is going stall sometime late this year or early next year. Seems that for every $100 they hand out in Uncle Sugar's money, they delay it for about two or three weeks. Of course, I hope I'm wrong.. My knowledge of history and finance aren't anything to brag about.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Murby said:


> That's the exact point I was making.. If Christian morality and values are superior, why didn't the bible speak out against slavery instead of endorsing it? The excuse "That's the way it was back then" doesn't fly in the face of divine doctrine. And we're only talking about slavery, there are plenty of other examples.


If you would have read an earlier reply I stated that Paul put the slavery thing to rest in Philemon.




Murby said:


> I'm not a history buff or expert.. it never interested me much, but I believe Rome was a democracy.. technically a republic.. 500 BC So apparently it was around at that time.


Actually Caesar was considered divine. Yes they had a quasi democracy towards the end but that was also part of their downfall.




Murby said:


> Right and wrong (morality) don't change because the date on a calendar moves forward, the only thing that changes is our own perception as humanity matures. If the sky fairy was real, the bible, regardless of current human behavior at the time, would have set things straight.
> 
> Rational logic does not allow one to say: This all powerful divine being created a doctrine to follow but we think part of it is wrong so we have dismissed that part and no longer follow it.


I don't believe the 10 Commandments are outdated. But you have your mind made up so end of discussion.



Murby said:


> I'm going to step out as my purpose here was to share prepping ideas, not bash people's beliefs and get everyone angry.. As I was saying before, religious indoctrination is done at an early age before a child's brain can develop rational thought. The effects of this early manipulation causes irrational behaviors.. IE: Question it and you get attacked. And judging by the responses in this thread, (Not your responses.. thank you!) people get triggered and angry.
> 
> I respect your opinion as you have expressed it with intelligence and maturity. I'd like to get back to prepping stuff now because, by my calculations, our financial system is going stall sometime late this year or early next year. Seems that for every $100 they hand out in Uncle Sugar's money, they delay it for about two or three weeks. Of course, I hope I'm wrong.. My knowledge of history and finance aren't anything to brag about.


Here we agree.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

inceptor said:


> If you would have read an earlier reply I stated that Paul put the slavery thing to rest in Philemon.
> 
> Actually Caesar was considered divine. Yes they had a quasi democracy towards the end but that was also part of their downfall.
> 
> ...


If you are talking to me, I think there is some confusion, and I caused it. I called Murby a liar not you.
I missed adding a quote somehow, and it turned into a confusing mess, and you are not a liar.

I have a lot of respect for you, and the other mods and senior members here. That guy just set me on edge.

PS: I have a gift, it’s called Dumbo syndrome.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> If you are talking to me, I think there is some confusion, and I caused it. I called Murby a liar not you.
> I missed adding a quote somehow, and it turned into a confusing mess, and you are not a liar.
> 
> I have a lot of respect for you, and the other mods and senior members here. That guy just set me on edge.
> ...


No, I was quoting Murby and replying. No reference to what you said.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

inceptor said:


> No, I was quoting Murby and replying. No reference to what you said.


Oh, OK, I woke up from a sleep and looked at things, and I thought—-now what did I do?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Murby said:


> If that works for you then that's great. I have a different perspective with entirely different views. (obviously)
> 
> Everyone needs to do what works for them.


I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
I try my best to live my life according to His teachings.

You obviously do not.

Now, when we die, and there is no God, what have I lost? Nothing.
If there is a God, when you die what will you have lost? Everything.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
> I try my best to live my life according to His teachings.
> 
> You obviously do not.
> ...


Damn, this is another one of those posts where you wish you could hit like a couple of hundred times. 

We need a post of the day award here.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
> I try my best to live my life according to His teachings.
> 
> You obviously do not.
> ...


Actually, you would have won the admiration of friends and family who lived beyond you. You wouldn't know it, but that's how it would be. 
You would be remembered as a very good and decent man who helped others.


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Now, when we die, and there is no God, what have I lost? Nothing.
> If there is a God, when you die what will you have lost? Everything.


That's argument is called Pascal's Wager. 

Have a good night.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Murby said:


> That's argument is called Pascal's Wager.
> 
> Have a good night.


Really? read what you just said. My third grade grammar teacher would flunked you for that sentence, and I grew up in Alabama. 
Oh, I especially like reading the words of a retired engineer writing, " ya," rather than, "yeah." You should understand why I'm thinking you are full of shit. Ya and Yeah. Age differences. Grammatic knowledge. Crazy. Huh?

Never mind all that. You want to parry with an Atheist's argument ad Wiki? Good for you, I guess.

Doesn't matter. You are too pompous to understand that there is more to this than your thoughts and opinions at stake.
As an individual, it's up to you. As a nation, we all suffer the loss of liberty, and more.


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## Murby (Jan 29, 2017)

Denton said:


> Really? read what you just said. My third grade grammar teacher would flunked you for that sentence, and I grew up in Alabama.
> Oh, I especially like reading the words of a retired engineer writing, " ya," rather than, "yeah." You should understand why I'm thinking you are full of shit. Ya and Yeah. Age differences. Grammatic knowledge. Crazy. Huh?
> 
> Never mind all that. You want to parry with an Atheist's argument ad Wiki? Good for you, I guess.
> ...


I wrote my reply and had to backspace three times to modify it because I didn't want to trigger anyone. 

It would seem that I failed, and also didn't backspace far enough.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Black 5 said:


> I suggest they all truck on over to the Vatican, have a parade, and force the Catholic Church to amend it's archaic (and presumably racist) ways.
> If not, we can send the antifa diplomatic corps there to negotiate.
> 
> The news coverage would have to beat anything on TV right now.


Note: I get tired and say stupid stuff, try to be patient if I get things wrong.
I rode an incredible distance on my bicycle last week, in the blazing Sun.
I am continually going back and reviewing myself now; and making things right, or undoing my garble.
I posted it like this to let everyone see it.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Murby said:


> I wrote my reply and had to backspace three times to modify it because I didn't want to trigger anyone.
> 
> It would seem that I failed, and also didn't backspace far enough.


"Trigger?" Don't worry about _triggering_ anyone around here. This isn't the Democratic Underground.

Still, cool non-response response, brah.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Murby said:


> ...
> 
> It would seem that I failed, and also didn't backspace far enough.


Yes, you have failed. However you can use the EDIT feature and backspace to your heart's content. 

Seriously, PLEASE USE THE EDIT FEATURE AND BACKSPACE MOST OF YOUR POSTS! Especially that drivel about global warming and pretty much everything that you wrote! 

Thanks

Slippy!


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