# Water filter - Water Purifier - Viruses



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

SO I just saw this video online - ceramic filters will not filter out viruses. I was getting ready to buy some filters tomorrow and get some food grade buckets and make my own "berky"

So I am thinking I need a purifier and a filter.

do I filter before purifying? or filter then purify? If I purify do I still need to filter? I could do a ton of research but overall there are a few of you I trust (Not Slippy unless it is pike or marriage related) a lot


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I look at it as getting rid of the big stuff (dirt, dust, crud) first by filtering thru a cloth (if necessary) to keep from plugging the factory made filters. Filtering thru the ceramic filter or Berkley or what have you to get rid of single cell critters and bacteria. I don't know of any filter that claims to be able to remove 100% of virus, so I will purify with bleach, boiling, ozone, ultraviolet light, etc. But I'm a worry wort. 

I hope to hear others ideas.

Oh! a big virus is about 0.2 micron in size, small ones are about 0.02 micron in size.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I saw that some folks let the water sit in the sun for a day (lets the UV kill stuff)


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> I saw that some folks let the water sit in the sun for a day (lets the UV kill stuff)


Use glass bottles and some shiny corrugated roofing metal to set the bottles on. A full day of sunshine should be fine. As Paraquack reminds us, however, the UV will most likely inactivate the viruses - not kill them outright. Drink the water within 24 hours. I have liter glass bottles tucked away for this very purpose. I also started buying dill pickles in large glass jars which make great storage jars for dry goods, and also for UV water purification. (Or you can bring the water to a boil, but this takes fuel. Use UV on sunny days.)


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

I have a Big Berkey with four filters installed, also have a reflux still.
I live on a lake that is more like a river basin with a swift moving river on each end.
The biggest concern would be bacteria, which I can eliminate. With four methods.
The still will be the last resort.
I had a bud in 10th. SFG that picked up Giardia on an operation.
He was drinking filtered water.
They almost killed him trying to get rid of it. He suffers permnant problems today.
They are similar to IBS and Colitis.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

The filters that actually kill viruses have an iodine component. The viruses I would really be most concerned with are Hep A and those that cause dysentery. Hep A won't kill you but it will knock you flat on your kiester for a few months. You will be worthless to everyone and a burden to all. Dysentery can kill within a few days from dehydration - even faster for kids. Hep A will be rampant post SHTF. For goodness sake, get vaccinated! (Along with your tetanus, minimally. Hep B, too.) Hep B is transmitted via body fluids - like blood. Hep A and Hep B vaccine comes in a combo form called Twinrix. Takes 6 months to complete the series of 3 shots.

Gotta boil, use UV, or chemically disinfect your water to avoid viruses. Plus: extreme diligence with hand hygiene and food prep.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

If you are using filters then use them in stages. A felt filter will remove larger particles and debris from your water, then use the ceramic filter and let it filter out the small stuff and then use the sub micron filter to filter out the viruses and smallest stuff. Do you have good drinking water, most likely it won't kill you, right away at any rate. There is stuff that dissolves in water that cannot be filtered out. Some of those things are salt, nitrates, alcohols and even some lighter petroleum distillates and aerosols. These things can make you sick and even kill you as they build up in your body over time. Reverse osmosis "filters" can remove some of these but not all. The only way to be sure of your drinking water is to have it tested or distill it in a reflux still. You can keep the aerosols as vapors higher in the stack while distilling water at 211 to 213F. You can distill urine and end up with pure water - you can't do that with any filter. ( the by-products of urine are good for making flammables and explosives)


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

RNprepper said:


> Use glass bottles and some shiny corrugated roofing metal to set the bottles on. A full day of sunshine should be fine. As Paraquack reminds us, however, the UV will most likely inactivate the viruses - not kill them outright. Drink the water within 24 hours. I have liter glass bottles tucked away for this very purpose. I also started buying dill pickles in large glass jars which make great storage jars for dry goods, and also for UV water purification. (Or you can bring the water to a boil, but this takes fuel. Use UV on sunny days.)


Plastic can be better or worse.

Glass UV cutoff is about 300 nm

Plastic depends on the composition of the plastic. Most is 360-300 nm, good quality acrylic goes to close to 220 nm.

How do I know this? I have tested them all on a quality research grade instruments.

Quartz is best but about $200 for two matched cells. Then you can go < 190 nm

For "BUGS" what are you killing? Lower wavelength will have much higher energy, and kill more pathogens, more quickly.

I am amazed by the "trippers" whom use UV . Do they realize the light needs to go through the crap?

Boiling is best. But I also use bleach, iodine, purifiers.

If SHTF and virus is a concern, use the best.

Wash water is different, but don't ingest it.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I just purchased 2 ceramic filters... 


Ceramic Dome Water Filter,For Zen Water System Replacement Filter 0.5 - 1 micron


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

I'd purify first, let settle then filter leaving the fallen material for other purposes.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Just pour it into the boiler and let the still make it perfect.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Filter then purify. Otherwise you are purifying the stuff you will later filter.


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## HailFromTexas (Aug 10, 2015)

I am just now starting the research on how to help one of my loved ones if they did get a virus ashf, so far I have came across only what may protect them via water, the Sodis Method which I do like but to me seems lacking in preparation-may be in my head- but I am also going to do what all you have described as I too am a worry wort. Thanks for the tip .


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Red wine or grape juice for the Baptists..can kill any virus a person might get. I drink the real stuff each day and cant no virus live in me. It must work huh?


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## HailFromTexas (Aug 10, 2015)

So you are saying that UV and something along the lines of bleach could kill viruses? And agreed hand washing is important even before shtf with all the crap going around.


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## willreply (Aug 11, 2015)

Filters are rated to a certain realtive percentage effectiveness. The micron size generally designates what it will filter for. For example 0.02 micron filter will filter out most crap. Ebola for example is 0.08 microns which mean it would mostly be filtered by a 0.02 micron filter. However there is assurance.

I do have iodine, as I have KI tablets that can also be used as thyroid protection in event of a radiological accident, but can also be used as water purification in the event of a known fatal virus.

Personally I am not too worried about viruses cause most just are discomforting, and non fatal in normal times. In a time when you need to be mobile though it can be bad one thing you can do is if you have a camelpak, the you can get a seethrough filter and just tie it on the outside exposed to light. I couldn't imagine shocking all my water, as that would likely cause more damage to me than drinking the viruses that make it through my 0.02 sawyer filter.

I also have some anti protazoan pills too, for stomach bugs in my emergency medicines (which is largely just mild pain relievers, I really never use but figure if I need to keep moving coffee and antiinflamatories will help)

The thing to consider is where you get it, for instance rain water will probably be relatively safe in non nuclear scenarios, while getting water from any waterway with sewage connections or industrial waste feeding into it will be problematic. Beaver fever ain't great but I've even eaten beaver with no ill effect. I swim in lake water all the time including with beavers with no ill effect Bear in mind it can happen but don't be too concerned about viruses from relatively clean water. IMO if you are going to die if you don't drink it don't be worried if you do from drinking it. Do you think water treatement kills everything 100%, 99.9% is relatively acceptable. If you have really unsafe water with say ebola in it go with a still but I would be bugging way out if my only water source was known to have ebola in it.

Anti protazoan meds can help with: African sleeping sickness, giardiasis, amebiasis, Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (PCP), and malaria - among other protazoan infections.

The 0.02 sawyer is stated at 99.9997% effective filter rate. https://sawyer.com/international/saving-lives/our-technology/

These levels are better than EPA standards for water treatment.

If you think your tap water is safe, think again, accidents can happen at the plant.

Removing Giardia Cysts from Drinking Water ? Water Quality ? Penn State Extension

In supply of chlorine gets cut off, then it will become much worse, although there would probably be bigger issues.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

willreply? Are you serious? First Will, then Will2 then even Will3 for a short time. Now willreply? 

Cleanup on aisle 3 please...for the final time.

Thanks

Slippy


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

http://phc.amedd.army.mil/phc resource library/31-008-1004.pdf

*PLEASE *copy this and keep with your emergency info file. (I also keep a copy with my box of granular hypochlorite.)
*The HTH granular calcium hypochlorite you get should be at least 70%. I found it at Patio Pools. The stuff in Target and WalMart is only 52%.*
Granular hypochlorite will keep for years, is easy to transport, and takes less storage space.
I have both liquid bleach that I rotate as I use it for laundry and surface disinfection (10% solution), but also granular calcium hypochlorite that I keep in my preps.


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Let me ask you guys this...I love the Katadyn pocket, I love the looks, love the portability, it's operation, etc. It seems to me that you need to filter thru ceramic and carbon filter to be sufficient. Well I personally don't want an all it one filter, my thinking is to keep my carbon filter separate from the ceramic filter so that carbon inside my ceramic filter won't cause me to wastefully throw the whole thing away when the carbon is spent but the ceramic still has much life left. 

Anyway, can you guys tell me of a carbon filter that is as close as possible to the Katadyn Pocket yet carbon instead of ceramic? I would really love the set up of a 1, 2 set up, bam step 1 pump thru the Katadyn Pocket then bam step 2 pump thru the (???). Any suggestions? If no suggestions of a Katadyn like carbon pump filter can you tell me which carbon filter would be the most user friendly one to easily attach to a kanteen? What I want is to simply have my Katadyn, kanteen, and carbon filter in my backpack and be able to just take a break by a river, pond, etc and double pump myself a drink of water. THanks

...yes I know that I can get the Katadyn carbon jawn and go thru the carbon refill process, but I kind of would love to have a Katadyn Pocket type filter that has a Black Berkey filter in it, a solid 1 piece tough filter, instead of fumbling with loose carbon and wondering if I put the right amount in etc


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Slippy said:


> willreply? Are you serious? First Will, then Will2 then even Will3 for a short time. Now willreply?
> 
> Cleanup on aisle 3 please...for the final time.
> 
> ...


He he.......Yea, i think all these Will's live together in their Mom's basement. Triplets?


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

PaulS said:


> If you are using filters then use them in stages. A felt filter will remove larger particles and debris from your water, then use the ceramic filter and let it filter out the small stuff and then use the sub micron filter to filter out the viruses and smallest stuff. Do you have good drinking water, most likely it won't kill you, right away at any rate. There is stuff that dissolves in water that cannot be filtered out. Some of those things are salt, nitrates, alcohols and even some lighter petroleum distillates and aerosols. These things can make you sick and even kill you as they build up in your body over time. Reverse osmosis "filters" can remove some of these but not all. The only way to be sure of your drinking water is to have it tested or distill it in a reflux still. You can keep the aerosols as vapors higher in the stack while distilling water at 211 to 213F. You can distill urine and end up with pure water - you can't do that with any filter. ( the by-products of urine are good for making flammables and explosives)


I was going to buy a distiller at one point but the thing that concerns me about distilled water is that some people say the evaporation point of water is too low to remove arsenic and other chemicals and those chemicals will wind up in the distilled water.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> SO I just saw this video online - ceramic filters will not filter out viruses. I was getting ready to buy some filters tomorrow and get some food grade buckets and make my own "berky"
> 
> So I am thinking I need a purifier and a filter.
> 
> do I filter before purifying? or filter then purify? If I purify do I still need to filter? I could do a ton of research but overall there are a few of you I trust (Not Slippy unless it is pike or marriage related) a lot


Its is quack science, I don't think what he says if true.

But unless you have a "well" and pull your water from the ground you will eventually die. There is a limit to filtration unless you ultimate filtration is rain-aquifer.


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## darsk20 (Jun 1, 2015)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> I was going to buy a distiller at one point but the thing that concerns me about distilled water is that some people say the evaporation point of water is too low to remove arsenic and other chemicals and those chemicals will wind up in the distilled water.


Simply put, anything with a higher boiling point than water will remain in the bottoms, not the distilled water. Think disolved solids. Needs good temp control to keep it at boiling point of water.

Anything with a lower boiling point could end up in the distilled water, if you have a single stage unit. This can be avoided by good temperature control and knowing what is in the solution and the boiling points for all the constituents.

If you have a multistage system, it can be set up to remove chemicals that have a boiling point below and above water.


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

darsk20 said:


> If you have a multistage system, it can be set up to remove chemicals that have a boiling point below and above water.


How? So after stage 1 the chemical in question is still in the water. Wait...light bulb just came on...so in stage 2 i suppose they bring it very very close to water boiling point but keep it under, and have something to capture whatever boils off! Do you recommend a certain brand for a good multistage unit?


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## darsk20 (Jun 1, 2015)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> How? So after stage 1 the chemical in question is still in the water. Wait...light bulb just came on...so in stage 2 i suppose they bring it very very close to water boiling point but keep it under, and have something to capture whatever boils off! Do you recommend a certain brand for a good multistage unit?


You've pretty much got it.

Say you have a mixture of water, gasoline, alcohol and 30w oil (don't ask me why).

The BP's are 212, 203, 173 and 536 respectively.

Bring the temperature up to over the BP of water yet below the BP of the 30w. You would have to have at least 2 stages, the first controlled at a temp of 210 and the second at less than 173. The water should condense in the first while the alcohol and gasoline continue to the second.

The reason you need good temperature control should be obvious based on how close the gasoline and water BP's are.

I do not have a brand as I have only done this in an industrial setting a long time ago.

There are also numerous details that either I have forgotten or glossed over.

Do your research, I am sure there are good websites and books out there. My engineering books are back in the office so I would hate to try to give anymore info for fear of major incorrect guidance.


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

I was searching around for distillers and unfortunately the multistage temperature control units aren't out there (short of industrial grade equipment like you were using). Question, if before putting water into the distiller what if I slowly bring it to a boil and leave it boil for a little bit, do you think that would evaporate the huge majority of the chemicals with lower boiling temps? This way they would be release into the air and not transfer to the distilled water...and then I can distill the water to separate from the high boiling temp chemicals.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

darsk20 said:


> You've pretty much got it.
> 
> Say you have a mixture of water, gasoline, alcohol and 30w oil (don't ask me why).
> 
> ...


Not so . Immiscible liquids co-distill in a process called steam distillation that does not follow Raoults laws of ideal liquids. The composition only depends on the vapor pressure of each liquid and is independent of the concentration of the components in the mixture.

Water and oils are such mixtures. This is sophomore organic chemistry. In fact several texts use the technique to distill clove oil (eugenol, 2-methoxy, 4(2-allyl) phenol) from ground cloves. Eugenol has a much higher bp than water but it co-distills. The distillate is then extracted with an organic solvent to obtain the eugenol and the extract then distilled/concentrated. During the extraction a minor component, acetyl eugenol is separated prior to distillation.

There are other liquid mixtures which also cannot be well separated by distillation as they form azeotropes. Water/ethanol is such a mixture which distills as 5/95 mixture (grain alcohol). The most sophisticated still will not separate the mixture until one of the components is distilled completely.


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## darsk20 (Jun 1, 2015)

Sounds right. Like I said, been a long time since I have done it. Around 17 - 18 years ago. Thought there was a vapor pressure component but couldn't remember.

Thanks for the clarification and correction. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Mad Trapper said:


> Not so . Immiscible liquids co-distill in a process called steam distillation that does not follow Raoults laws of ideal liquids. The composition only depends on the vapor pressure of each liquid and is independent of the concentration of the components in the mixture.
> 
> Water and oils are such mixtures. This is sophomore organic chemistry. In fact several texts use the technique to distill clove oil (eugenol, 2-methoxy, 4(2-allyl) phenol) from ground cloves. Eugenol has a much higher bp than water but it co-distills. The distillate is then extracted with an organic solvent to obtain the eugenol and the extract then distilled/concentrated. During the extraction a minor component, acetyl eugenol is separated prior to distillation.
> 
> There are other liquid mixtures which also cannot be well separated by distillation as they form azeotropes. Water/ethanol is such a mixture which distills as 5/95 mixture (grain alcohol). The most sophisticated still will not separate the mixture until one of the components is distilled completely.


Well that is tough to follow because I'm so ignorant to distillation but it sounds like bad news, it sounds like unless you have yourself a distiller with extra bells & whistles (like medical equipment distillers, phase 1 water) it won't work. You say that even if a liquid has a higher bp than water it can still distill with the water ugh. So it sounds like your basic distiller flat out lies about what it accomplishes. I was checking out the AquaNui CT which isn't cheap, thanks for posting I will definitely pass and probably go with RO instead.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> Well that is tough to follow because I'm so ignorant to distillation but it sounds like bad news, it sounds like unless you have yourself a distiller with extra bells & whistles (like medical equipment distillers, phase 1 water) it won't work. You say that even if a liquid has a higher bp than water it can still distill with the water ugh. So it sounds like your basic distiller flat out lies about what it accomplishes. I was checking out the AquaNui CT which isn't cheap, thanks for posting I will definitely pass and probably go with RO instead.


Distilled water will clean things up significantly for miscible liquids that differ in boiling points and do not form azeotropes, how well depends on the fractionating column used. It will also separate most inorganic solids, bacteria/viruses and sediments. Most water will not have contaminates that are difficult to separate unless the source is polluted. A simple distillation in which you discard the forerun and collect the bulk of the liquid should get you drinkable water. You may have a problem separating some chemicals, petroleum, and pesticides. Avoid polluted sources.

Read up on this in an organic chemistry lab text. It will explain apparatus, what is feasible, and how to conduct a distillation by monitoring temperature and collecting fractions of distillate. It should not be hard to fabricate a still, for instance from a pressure canner, themometer, and some plumbing supplies. You will need a heat source and a means to cool/condense the steam.


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