# Should we attack any country and their allies if they use chemicalWeaponsOnCivilians?



## SanAntonioPrepper

I personally believe Syria and Israel is where WWIII will start and will involved Syria, Russia, North Korea and China versus the US and its allies.

From the business insider article titled "All hell breaks loose in Syria after rebels shoot down Russian jet over the weekend" that was published today regarding and incident that happened over this past weekend.
Hell in Syria after rebels shoot down Russian jet over the weekend - Business Insider

Basically Russia is throwing a temper tantrum that one of its planes was recently downed over Syria this past weekend because they were attacking US backed forces in the area.

Russia has now killed a bunch of civilians over the course of the Syrian war. Not just with this attack but through all the air attacks combined. Last year, when President Trump attacked the Syrian base where the previous chemical attack originated from, Russia had planes at that base. The US has said it will respond to future Syrian chemical attacks with force. Reports of another chemical attack occurring over the weekend have surfaced.

A few more articles released today on the topic:

New reported chemical weapons attack in Syria as US calls out Russia
New reported chemical weapons attack in Syria as US calls out Russia - ABC News

New chemical attacks reported in Syria, and Trump administration blames Russia
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...908743c79dd_story.html?utm_term=.11cae0150277

1. Should the US have gotten involved and attacked Germany immediately when we learned of innocent Jews being killed by chemical weapons/mean (gas)?
2. Should the US get involved and attack either Russia or completely wipe out the Syrian government if it is found that they used chemical weapons on innocent people yet again?


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## Coastie dad

When was the US appointed to be the world police force and knight errant?

If we would get out of the king maker business and stop trying to force our rules on everyone else, we may have fewer world issues on our plate.
Reform immigration, reform our government, dust off the Constitution, and get our own yard cleaned up. If the neighbor wants to mow the grass by burning it to the dirt, let him. Just as long as it doesn't burn mine.


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## Camel923

We as a nation would be better served if we kept our noses out of as much crap as possible. If your personally upset, go there and join up. JMHO.


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## rstanek

We just need to quit giving them foreign aid, true friendships are made, not bought......


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## Gunn

I am torn. Having been stationed in Israel many years ago, I love the people. But I also feel we butt in to much. I guess we should ONLY help true allies. Quit giving aide to countries who only like or tolerate us due to aide. If a TRUE FRIEND needs help we help. And those are far and few.


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## Denton

Coastie dad said:


> When was the US appointed to be the world police force and knight errant?
> 
> If we would get out of the king maker business and stop trying to force our rules on everyone else, we may have fewer world issues on our plate.
> Reform immigration, reform our government, dust off the Constitution, and get our own yard cleaned up. If the neighbor wants to mow the grass by burning it to the dirt, let him. Just as long as it doesn't burn mine.


The petrodollar insures we will continue to meddle.


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## dsdmmat

We should only attack another country if they attack us and/or our allies and we should completely destroy their ability to fight ever again. We should nuke "back to the primordial period" any country that attacks with chemical or biological weapons. 

Nothing good comes from endless war.


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## Chipper

Killing innocent civilians, women and children has to stopped by someone. If not us then who??


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## rice paddy daddy

SanAntonioPrepper said:


> 1. Should the US have gotten involved and attacked Germany immediately when we learned of innocent Jews being killed by chemical weapons/mean (gas)?
> 2. Should the US get involved and attack either Russia or completely wipe out the Syrian government if it is found that they used chemical weapons on innocent people yet again?


1. We were already in a declared war with Germany before they even decided on the Final Solution To The Jewish Problem (their words, not mine). The decision was made at what is known as the Wannsee Conference in January, 1942. To select the sites and build the Death Camps took months, with Jews beginning to be liquidated in 1943. Do not confuse the concentration camps such as Auschwitz where Jews were slave labor with the actual Death Camps such as Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and others.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Wannsee-Conference Here endeth the history lesson.

2. Hell no!! Ain't none of our damn business.


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## Coastie dad

I've said, even when I was active, that if we are going to fight political wars we may as well openly hire ourselves as mercenaries.
If we use the petrodollar as a reason, we should have all the dollars. My thoughts are that we should currently own all the oilfields in the middle east.


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## rice paddy daddy

Chipper said:


> Killing innocent civilians, women and children has to stopped by someone. If not us then who??


Grab your AR and take point.
I'll stay in the rear with the gear.


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## RedLion

The U.S. attacked and invaded Iraq twice due in some part to their use of chemical weapons on their own citizens/the Kurds. Iraq also threatened surrounding countries with WMA's (scuds coupled with Sarin nerve agent). I think that there are circumstances in which the U.S. should get involved and go to war to prevent the spread of evil. With that said, we should no longer be the world police and should avoid most conflicts when possible.


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## Smitty901

The use of chemical/Biological weapons changes the rules. I have to come down on if we know they have them , drop the bombs. The shit in Syria now came from Iraq when we went in. We were not allowed to go into Syria and get it.


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## dwight55

I don't like war at all, . . . but there are times when the bully on the block needs his butt kicked up between his shoulders.

Using chemical agents and getting away with it, . . . emboldens the scumbags who do that.

Knocking them back to the stone ages, . . . even if it means taking out many innocents in the process, . . . means that they will not build enough of the stuff to be a serious threat to a whole bunch of their neighbors. 

Stuff like sarin gas and some others I've heard of . . . is just too deadly to allow every tom dick and harry rogue regime to be able to play with it.

Bust their chops, . . . sit back and say "Next?".

And at the same time, . . . even if it isn't chemical attacks, . . . attack our full allies, . . . good allies, . . . again, . . . bomb em back to the caves. 

Sooner or later, somebody will get the hint and they'll quit that crap.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Coastie dad

If we would provide a righteous ass-whuppin' instead of drawing out a war due to a politician's rules of engagement, if we would go in to win as quickly as possible, and stop wasting young men and women's lives by playing pattycake with the enemy, I might get behind it.
Other than that, let them deal with their own mess. But if they even look crosseyed at us, I think there should be an open declaration to the world we will be brutal. And no more rebuilding a country unless we colonize it.


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## rice paddy daddy

I'm sorry guys.
I just have a hard time spending American lives unless our own country is threatened.

Pundits for years have yammered on endlessly about "the lessons of Vietnam".

This is the lesson that should be learned first:






:vs_sad::vs_sad::vs_sad::vs_sad::vs_sad:


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## Ragnarök

SanAntonioPrepper said:


> I personally believe Syria and Israel is where WWIII will start and will involved Syria, Russia, North Korea and China versus the US and its allies.
> 
> From the business insider article titled "All hell breaks loose in Syria after rebels shoot down Russian jet over the weekend" that was published today regarding and incident that happened over this past weekend.
> Hell in Syria after rebels shoot down Russian jet over the weekend - Business Insider
> 
> Basically Russia is throwing a temper tantrum that one of its planes was recently downed over Syria this past weekend because they were attacking US backed forces in the area.
> 
> Russia has now killed a bunch of civilians over the course of the Syrian war. Not just with this attack but through all the air attacks combined. Last year, when President Trump attacked the Syrian base where the previous chemical attack originated from, Russia had planes at that base. The US has said it will respond to future Syrian chemical attacks with force. Reports of another chemical attack occurring over the weekend have surfaced.
> 
> A few more articles released today on the topic:
> 
> New reported chemical weapons attack in Syria as US calls out Russia
> New reported chemical weapons attack in Syria as US calls out Russia - ABC News
> 
> New chemical attacks reported in Syria, and Trump administration blames Russia
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...908743c79dd_story.html?utm_term=.11cae0150277
> 
> 1. Should the US have gotten involved and attacked Germany immediately when we learned of innocent Jews being killed by chemical weapons/mean (gas)?
> 2. Should the US get involved and attack either Russia or completely wipe out the Syrian government if it is found that they used chemical weapons on innocent people yet again?


Wars have no rules.

During WW1 chemical weapons were used by all sides. WW2 we ended the Pacific theater by dropping two atom bombs on Japan killing 100's of thousands of civilians instantly and many more died slow agonizing deaths from radiation poisoning.

We should stay out of it and let them fight their own wars.

The only true reason our nation should declare war and engage is if we are directly attacked or if we have solid proof we are about to be attacked.


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## Denton

Our military should be used if our nation or the constitution is facing is a threat. I mean an existential threat.

Our military was NOT used against Hussien, Assad or anyone else for humanitarian purposes. Every reason was for geopolitical purposes.

Today's world is filled with violence. Men, women and children are being slaughtered, persecuted and enslaved throughout Asia and Africa. Does it matter by what method? Nope. Now think about where our military has been used. Discard the altruistic notion and take another look.


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## Chiefster23

Chipper said:


> Killing innocent civilians, women and children has to stopped by someone. If not us then who??


With all due respect sir, are you willing to sacrifice your son to stop some two bit dictator in the middle east from gassing his own people? Your perspective may change when your son's life is on the line.

I get really p-sed when people suggest that "we should do something" when the "we" is someone else. If anyone feels strongly that "something should be done", by all means grab your gun and head on over yourself. Don't volunteer my son!


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## A Watchman

Denton said:


> Our military should be used if our nation or the constitution is facing is a threat. I mean an existential threat.
> 
> Our military was NOT used against Hussien, Assad or anyone else for humanitarian purposes. Every reason was for geopolitical purposes.
> 
> Today's world is filled with violence. Men, women and children are being slaughtered, persecuted and enslaved throughout Asia and Africa. Does it matter by what method? Nope. Now think about where our military has been used. Discard the altruistic notion and take another look.


The world is full of shithole countries, your concern should be that one does not come to a neighborhood near you.


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## The Tourist

If no Americans died, who cares.

Oh, we could send a Tomahawk missile or a drone for a photo-op given to the press. But no more "boots on the ground."

Why should our best die for their worst?


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## Chiefster23

^^^ what he said ^^^


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## NotTooProudToHide

Ive got mixed feelings on the subject. I get the argument thats being made here about not spending American dollars or spilling American blood for events that do not concern us. I also get the human suffering that happens when a giant douche decides to kill his own people and uses chemical/biological weapons to do it. Its hard to ignore pictures and or videos of 6 year old kids that where the victims of a gas attack. Then again whats the difference between gassing people, blowing them up, gunning them down, hacking them to bits, or just starving them to death. Its hard to ignore these kinds of sufferings.


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## Chipper

You have to look at the bigger picture. Cause world events do effect us in the long run. Lets allow Russia and China to take over the world we'll just hide over here and be safe. We all know how that will end, hopefully. 

Would it have been better to let isis to take over the middle east? Kill everyone that doesn't conform to their believes and start a huge terrorist state.


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## Coastie dad

No, it would have been better to let the military do what it's trained to do, rather than have civilians sitting safely at home dictating how to fight, as our country has done for the last half century.


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## Coastie dad

And for that matter, maybe we should start by realizing we need a military, and not expect them to act like armed social workers.


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## Denton

A Watchman said:


> The world is full of shithole countries, your concern should be that one does not come to a neighborhood near you.


Of course, that would be a concern. That isn't the topic of discussion. The recent concern is the last administration throwing the Middle East into turmoil, destabilizing governments that protected Christians, which resulted in Islamists taking over Libya and almost taking over Syria. In both places, the Obama administration aided the Islamists.
Had Obama gotten his way, Egypt would be an Islamist state, today.


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## The Tourist

NotTooProudToHide said:


> Then again whats the difference between gassing people, blowing them up, gunning them down, hacking them to bits, or just starving them to death. Its hard to ignore these kinds of sufferings.


Our country was also founded by a revolution. Our citizens fought their own battles for freedom.

The most common firearm in the world is the Kalashnikov. If a people are maligned, tortured, beaten or starved by a local despot, why don't they create their own "Minute Men." That name derives from loyal citizens who would make themselves available to fight the British in one minute.

So what if you're living in some shiithole muslim country and the soldiers just beat your wife for wearing lip gloss. Blow the horn, grab your Kalashnikov off the goat paddock, and take your country back.

When British soldiers tried an end around move through our southern states, there was only one group--a militia--who stood against them. They were the friends and neighbors of Francis Marion.

If he could do it, angry native muslims should do it. No Americans required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion


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## Denton

The Tourist said:


> Our country was also founded by a revolution. Our citizens fought their own battles for freedom.
> 
> The most common firearm in the world is the Kalashnikov. If a people are maligned, tortured, beaten or starved by a local despot, why don't they create their own "Minute Men." That name derives from loyal citizens who would make themselves available to fight the British in one minute.
> 
> So what if you're living in some shiithole muslim country and the soldiers just beat your wife for wearing lip gloss. Blow the horn, grab your Kalashnikov off the goat paddock, and take your country back.
> 
> When British soldiers tried an end around move through our southern states, there was only one group--a militia--who stood against them. They were the friends and neighbors of Francis Marion.
> 
> If he could do it, angry native muslims should do it. No Americans required.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion


We also had the support of France. Again, though, French support was not for altruistic reasons but because England and France were much less than friends.


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## Urinal Cake

When they minimize the Muzzie Population, that only makes the world safer.


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## Old SF Guy

I believe that we cannot soley look inward and say only if it threatens us...because a day will come when we are surrounded on all sides and we will face eradication. We have named our Allies, but I think we name them to frequently. Saudi Arabia is no Ally worth fighting for. Nor is Egypt.

The UK, Australia, Canada (smirk, smirk) and Israel are countries we have true interests in. Germany has yet again become an ambitious country to dominate Europe, this time through partnerships.... and France still shows they won't even fight for their own country.

We need to clearly draw a line with our allies and protect them....viciously, and without limits. And God help any who strike us directly...they forfeit their right to exist as a nation in my eyes.


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## The Tourist

Urinal Cake said:


> When they minimize the Muzzie Population, that only makes the world safer.


From 10:00AM until noon, it's "my time" at the mall. I sit with a new knife magazine, a Tom Clancy novel or a survivalist rag, and drink substandard, over-priced coffee. To quote Billie Joel, "the usual crowd staggers in."

To be honest, this is the most dangerous place I go, no kidding. It's right off the food court, which is our local drug haven and the scene of many girls who have become known as "chair fighters." There are shrieks of Ebonics, pushing, shoving, and finally they both grab chairs and try to beat each other to debt. I'm actually safer at Reverend Jim's, a bar a few blocks from the bike shop. Yeah, every one is tough and armed, but when you're with people you know you "forget."

But at the cafe' I sit with my back to the wall so I can see all three exits, sideways on the chair so I have access to the Bianchi holster, and I look up quite often, and noises and shouting always require an observation.

More and more I see mothers wearing burqas, pushing strollers, and our wannabee bangers swaggering around realizing all the new mall food is just a sports bar, an Asian express line for grease made by the kilo and two other places whites prefer.

This is all within 50 feet of me, but it's my time, I need coffee, no one is sending me on errands and my insides quiet down.

I think the "Muzzies" will find my slice of heaven sometime this year, and that's too bad.


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## NotTooProudToHide

The Tourist said:


> Our country was also founded by a revolution. Our citizens fought their own battles for freedom.
> 
> The most common firearm in the world is the Kalashnikov. If a people are maligned, tortured, beaten or starved by a local despot, why don't they create their own "Minute Men." That name derives from loyal citizens who would make themselves available to fight the British in one minute.
> 
> So what if you're living in some shiithole muslim country and the soldiers just beat your wife for wearing lip gloss. Blow the horn, grab your Kalashnikov off the goat paddock, and take your country back.
> 
> When British soldiers tried an end around move through our southern states, there was only one group--a militia--who stood against them. They were the friends and neighbors of Francis Marion.
> 
> If he could do it, angry native muslims should do it. No Americans required.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion


In most of these countries the people are fighting for their country and in many cases are winning enough which is why their government resorts to tactics involving WMD's and or the indiscriminate killing of citizens.

Your also making an apples to oranges comparison especially when it comes to the technology. The difference between the most deadly weapons on the field in the era of the American Revolution which probably was cannons vs even 2nd generation jets or helicopters is on an astronomical scale. There are also tanks, APC's, chemical weapons, or more advanced aircraft such as drones or guided missiles/bombs. The cold war ensured every shithole country's government is well stocked with some of the best 80's US and or Soviet weaponry.

You want to see what happens to "rebels" vs government forces just watch the Apache vs Taliban or Iraqi gun cam footage on youtube.


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## The Tourist

NotTooProudToHide said:


> You want to see what happens to "rebels" vs government forces just watch the Apache vs Taliban or Iraqi gun cam footage on youtube.


You should have seen Vietnam veterans coming back to college after 13 months in southeast Asia. I did.

My point was that it doesn't always have to be "us" sacrificing our boys and funding the laggards who sit around for free in the UN.

I think killing someone is the hardest thing a human can do, I'm a Christian. But if a dozen jihadist came after my wife and her fingernail polish, I'd have to go up against Kalashnikovs with a pistol--that's the deal about freedom, it ain't free.

If a middle-eastern citizen abandons his people, catches the first boat out of Dodge, and let's his homeland be easily overrun because he's too chickenspit to just say "no," I don't see where it's required for our boys to replace him and face the danger he won't.

I know that "isolationism" is considered by some to be a filthy word. But I'd like the USA to stop fighting other peoples' battles for them for a decade, eject the UN, let France run it because I hear the UN reps like to push their way to the front for good food. Take the assembly robots and the steel we use to build Humvees and make a decent, affordable Chevy for the Americans who pay taxes.

Yes, tens of millions will die while we fiddle as Ramadi burns. I don't care anymore.

BTW, volunteer to work at a USA veterans' hospital. I did. It changes your perspective. "Theories" become scared little men who defended their country, made it safe for us, and self medicated their PTSD horrors with liquor.

Screw foreigners who won't fight for their homelands.


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## A Watchman

Denton said:


> Of course, that would be a concern. That isn't the topic of discussion. The recent concern is the last administration throwing the Middle East into turmoil, destabilizing governments that protected Christians, which resulted in Islamists taking over Libya and almost taking over Syria. In both places, the Obama administration aided the Islamists.
> Had Obama gotten his way, Egypt would be an Islamist state, today.


I believe you focused too narrow on my verbage, and missed my real intent. The armed forces and resources of the United States, should be utilized for only reasons of extreme National Security or qualified special interests. WE should not be involved in the 'wars" of others as a rule of convenient policy. Understanding that as long as the petro dollar is in play, the rest of the story is seldom straightforward.


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## A Watchman

Old SF Guy said:


> I believe that we cannot soley look inward and say only if it threatens us...because a day will come when we are surrounded on all sides and we will face eradication. We have named our Allies, but I think we name them to frequently. Saudi Arabia is no Ally worth fighting for. Nor is Egypt.


In theory you are correct, however the eradication is rapidly becoming a potential threat from within our own borders.


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## Old SF Guy

A Watchman said:


> In theory you are correct, however the eradication is rapidly becoming a potential threat from within our own borders.


I ease my mind about it by reminding myself that it was a minority of folks willing to fight against England that got us here today. Folks are certainly willing to undermine us internally...But they aren't willing to fight us to do it. Those folks are fair weather socialists...when it comes to dying for a cause.....they ain't willing....


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## KUSA

I think we should attack any country for any reason as long as it protects or advances American interests. **** em.


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## Ragnarök

KUSA said:


> I think we should attack any country for any reason as long as it protects or advances American interests. **** em.


How should we attack them?


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## KUSA

Ragnarök said:


> How should we attack them?


Bomb the shit out of them.


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## Coastie dad

Language aside, @KUSA, are you willing to go or send your child? 
Seriously. No posturing, no bravado, are you willing to leave your family, possibly to not return or return crippled, or put your child in that position, for any reason a government official thinks may advance American interests?


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## Ragnarök

KUSA said:


> Bomb the shit out of them.


Simple yet satisfying.


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## Coastie dad

Bombs, artillery, and armor take ground.

Infantry holds ground.

The only way to maintain control is through physical proximity/occupation.


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## Ragnarök

Coastie dad said:


> Bombs, artillery, and armor take ground.
> 
> Infantry holds ground.
> 
> The only way to maintain control is through physical proximity/occupation.


Maintaining control is expensive. I think if we enter a war at another request we should make it worth our while. No bs


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## KUSA

Coastie dad said:


> Language aside, @KUSA, are you willing to go or send your child?
> Seriously. No posturing, no bravado, are you willing to leave your family, possibly to not return or return crippled, or put your child in that position, for any reason a government official thinks may advance American interests?


I served in the military and would do it again. I spent a lot of time away from home and family. I don't regret it a bit.


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## Coastie dad

KUSA said:


> I served in the military and would do it again. I spent a lot of time away from home and family. I don't regret it a bit.


Good enough for me.


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## Coastie dad

Ragnarök said:


> Maintaining control is expensive. I think if we enter a war at another request we should make it worth our while. No bs


As were my thoughts. If we need to fight there, we need to own it. And not as a charity case.


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## rice paddy daddy

Well, I've had my belly full of war.
You younger fellas can go see what high velocity projectiles and jagged metal moving faster than sound can do to a human body.

But don't worry, with the advances in medicine since my war, and the body armor available today, I hear that you can get along fairly well missing a couple of legs or arms.
And it will be for a good cause - to stop Shia from killing Sunni, or the other way around, or something. It doesn't matter, they both would like to kill YOU.

Meanwhile, back home, Jody's got your girl. And your sister too. :vs_lol::vs_lol:


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## Inor

So long as it is muslims gassing other muslims, or Ivan gassing muslims, or *********** gassing muslims... Who cares?

So long as they do not step across that line and attack our TRUE allies (Israel, not France), knock yourselves out boys!


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## SOCOM42

Coastie dad said:


> Language aside, @KUSA, are you willing to go or send your child?
> Seriously. No posturing, no bravado, are you willing to leave your family, possibly to not return or return crippled, or put your child in that position, for any reason a government official thinks may advance American interests?


Myself, not again would I until the country returns to what I believe it is worth fighting for.

With those heinous bastards in congress, I will run out of life before it happens.

With the infestation of libtards, BLM's, CAIR not likely until they are purged, they all collectively are not worth the

piss on a log or in snow, and are not worth the sweat off my sack.

We have more enemies at home to deal with at this juncture in time than foreign ones.


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## SOCOM42

Ragnarök said:


> Wars have no rules.
> 
> During WW1 chemical weapons were used by all sides. WW2 we ended the Pacific theater by dropping two atom bombs on Japan killing 100's of thousands of civilians instantly and many more died slow agonizing deaths from radiation poisoning.
> The only true reason our nation should declare war and engage is if we are directly attacked or if we have solid proof we are about to be attacked.


Tough shit for the Japs, as Truman said if there had never been a

Pearl Harbor. there would have never been a Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

I have no sympathy for them, think of our boys boiling to death

inside the ships at pearl, not knowing why, worse death possible.

How about the Bataan death march, or Cabanatuan?

How about the Kwai Bridge? Wake island? How about Intramoro ?

The bastards got what they deserved, maybe not even enough.

How about the millions they tortured and butchered all over South East Asia?

The rape of Nanking,

just a couple hundred thousand civilians raped and butchered?

Who cares how they suffered or died, they didn't care about our guys.

When I think of ours suffering and dying at their hands as

prisoners, they got their just desserts, shit on them.


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## A Watchman

rice paddy daddy said:


> Well, I've had my belly full of war.
> You younger fellas can go see what high velocity projectiles and jagged metal moving faster than sound can do to a human body.
> 
> But don't worry, with the advances in medicine since my war, and the body armor available today, I hear that you can get along fairly well missing a couple of legs or arms.
> And it will be for a good cause - to stop Shia from killing Sunni, or the other way around, or something. It doesn't matter, they both would like to kill YOU.
> 
> Meanwhile, back home, Jody's got your girl. And your sister too. :vs_lol::vs_lol:


The truth ....... can be a real ugly thing.


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## The Tourist

It's going to take a lot of money to transport weapons, personnel and support equipment over to the middle-east to kill idiots that took naked camels to the prom. Some of them are here, already.

Wouldn't it just be easier to allow armed citizens to shoot them here, kind of like we do with vermin, prairie dogs and rabid domestic dogs?

One advantage is that 35% of the CCW holders are women. Rags believe that if a woman kills them they will not see paradise. I saw a story about an all female gun crew (Israeli, I believe) that would roll into an enemy area and scare the sheepdip out of the jihadists.

Another thing we must address sooner or later is pollution. If the rags were here, we could roll them in the pig entrails from butchers and bury them face down, give them a head start, so to speak and get rid of animal biproducts. Personally, I think a stretch at Guantanamo Bay is like a vacation at Club Med for these wastrels. Let them see a female Navy SEAL gutting a pig with a sign on her Humvee stating, "You're Next..."


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## Smitty901

Wait until you are directly attacked at home means you already lost. Defense holds them off while offense kicks the crap out of them.


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## The Tourist

Smitty901 said:


> Wait until you are directly attacked at home means you already lost. Defense holds them off while offense kicks the crap out of them.


Part of me was being factious, but the overall air of contempt is real. Let me explain.

I'm SDA, but I respect Baptists and Methodists. There's the rub, I have nothing but contempt for this crop of muslims. I have more respect for some national MCs than I do for these charlatans.

For example, they expect paradise for killing infidels. Well, what if the bomb they set off or the Kalashnikov they spray into a crowd kills some American muslims?

As I have stated before, I once listened to Father Simon on Relevant Radio, and he stated that self defense was oaky, but revenge belonged to the Lord. How am I supposed to accomplish that, seriously. The black flag comes out, the shouting and shooting starts, and I am supposed to dispassionately kill a dozen people I've never met without anger or adrenaline.

*Of course I want these cowards to stay in their home shiitholes, killing each other and thinking it's normal to completely cover a woman but let a camel run naked. This is one screwed up apostate 'religion,' if I can even use that word.*

We have differing colored recyclable garbage cans here. I'm careful when I toss a glass jar into them, for fear of breaking it. If I care more about a piece of trash than I do a jihadist, then something is off the trolley.


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## Smitty901

The Tourist said:


> Part of me was being factious, but the overall air of contempt is real. Let me explain.
> 
> I'm SDA, but I respect Baptists and Methodists. There's the rub, I have nothing but contempt for this crop of muslims. I have more respect for some national MCs than I do for these charlatans.
> 
> For example, they expect paradise for killing infidels. Well, what if the bomb they set off or the Kalashnikov they spray into a crowd kills some American muslims?
> 
> As I have stated before, I once listened to Father Simon on Relevant Radio, and he stated that self defense was oaky, but revenge belonged to the Lord. How am I supposed to accomplish that, seriously. The black flag comes out, the shouting and shooting starts, and I am supposed to dispassionately kill a dozen people I've never met without anger or adrenaline.
> 
> *Of course I want these cowards to stay in their home shiitholes, killing each other and thinking it's normal to completely cover a woman but let a camel run naked. This is one screwed up apostate 'religion,' if I can even use that word.*
> 
> We have differing colored recyclable garbage cans here. I'm careful when I toss a glass jar into them, for fear of breaking it. If I care more about a piece of trash than I do a jihadist, then something is off the trolley.


 We are not talking about a bunch of Muslims minding their own business , we are talking about chemical weapons. What is the only weapon system the USA has said it will never use. 1 guess it aint nukes. So we just turn our backs let have all the chemical weapons they can build. Once you experience them it will be to late to do much. Your mask won't help , just a feel good then , keeps you in the fight a little longer.
You want them to stay in their home shitholes . How has that worked so far?


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## SanAntonioPrepper

I see there are a couple of viewpoints on this topic. This was to be expected. No answer is right or wrong as we all have our opinions. Its interesting to see the diversity of beliefs and thoughts. 

Some view it as "not our business" if it does not involve us directly, regardless of if one has the power to stop a degree atrocities from happening and regardless of the message this sends to the violators and the international community. That a country should wait for it (or its allies) to be attacked directly before getting involved. Others view it as "evil prevails when good men do nothing" and that humanity has a responsibility to step in when red lines are crossed and that use of chemical or biological weapons is a red line. That it was a redline the first time it was done in Syria and now that little has been done (no real biting consequences) to instill fear from doing it again, its still a redline the 3rd time it was done in Syria just last week. 

One thing that can be agreed upon by a sizable portion of people is that the US ally Israel does not take an isolationist, "wait till we get attacked" approach but instead pursues a proactive approach. This is most likely out of Isreal's fear that if they take a wait and see approach, it emboldens and strengthens those opposed to them. That a wait and see and then act (be defensive only) approach would be too late as they are on the front lines. Many would argue that Israel's approach causes a degree of fear and respect for Israel. A reason for not attacking Israel. That Israel is not a country to be messed with and that it will do whatever is necessary, either proactively (without being attacked first) or in self defense and not worry about being politically correct. Many would argue that healthy respect and healthy fear of the US is waning. That the US is so tied up in beurocrecy and red tap/division that we (those opposed to the US) can do what we want while the Americans argue about it (South China Sea and illegal island building, harassing out allies Japan and the Philippians in this area, invading Crimea and annexing it to attackers country, meddling in elections, threatening UN allies, flying into their air spaces etc.).

Syria is right next to the ally Israel. All last year there were multiple reports of North Koreans, Iranians and Russians fighting in support of Syria in addition to tunneling into Israel (or lobbing mortars) from across the boarder. Basically, the ally Israel is already being attacked by different groups inside Syria. The Iranians stated goal is to "wipe Israel off the face of the map". Multiple reports are that Syria is continuing to build up and develop more chemical weapons. That North Korean and Iran are involved in developing these chemical weapons both for Syria's use and for their native countries use. Instead of speculation (like with Iraq) that Syria is "possibly" developing chemical weapons, we actually have use of chemical weapons on innocents. Its beyond speculation at this point as observed by the international community.

For those who believe that we should only attack when directly attacked or when an ally is attacked, do you believe the US should idly sit by as more Iranians, North Koreans, Russians and other groups funnel into Syria to embolden the Syrian leadership (as they repeatedly kill and gas their own children and civilians) because they are only making minor attacks against Israel (mortors, threats, tunnels etc.) now or should something be done about this and the US get more involved before things get really out of hand and Israel is overwhelmed both for the sake of Israel and for the sake of the children and innocent in Syria?

There is no right or wrong answer. I am just curious of the different viewpoints.


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## rice paddy daddy

I'm the kind of guy, that if it's outside my perimeter - meaning if it doesn't directly affect me - I don't lose much sleep over it.

If Detroit wants to riot and burn their city down and kill people, that is Michigan's problem, not mine.


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## Coastie dad

We can help keep them in their shitholes by not allowing them here. 
There is a fox around my farm. The pyrenees goes out of her way to keep it out of the chicken yard. She doesn't go hunting off property for it. If she did, she would be leaving those she is responsible for unprotected.
You may say she is defensive. Maybe she isn't too proactive. But she damned sure doesn't invite the fox into the henhouse for tea.


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## Denton

Smitty901 said:


> We are not talking about a bunch of Muslims minding their own business , we are talking about chemical weapons. What is the only weapon system the USA has said it will never use. 1 guess it aint nukes. So we just turn our backs let have all the chemical weapons they can build. Once you experience them it will be to late to do much. Your mask won't help , just a feel good then , keeps you in the fight a little longer.
> You want them to stay in their home shitholes . How has that worked so far?


Every single time "they" want to use our military for their agenda, they trot out the same, tired, old reasons. We have to do it for the innocent people. We have to do it so that they don't come here. We have to do it because they are upsetting some apple cart.

Chemical weapons. Yes, we know that they are nasty. Yes, we know some of the actors over there have them. That isn't good enough reason to involve ourselves, militarily. Even if they are used, over there, it is over there.



> You want them to stay in their home shitholes . How has that worked so far?


That, sir, is a separate issue. The only connection is that the same entities that demand people of poisoned cultures be brought here are the same entities that want to use our military to shape other regions to their desires.


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## Inor

Denton said:


> Every single time "they" want to use our military for their agenda, they trot out the same, tired, old reasons. We have to do it for the innocent people. We have to do it so that they don't come here. We have to do it because they are upsetting some apple cart.


There ARE no "innocent" muslims. And if all muslims are dead, they cannot come here OR upset the apple cart.

Here endeth the lesson. Let them gas other muslims until the cows come home.


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## Denton

Inor said:


> There ARE no "innocent" muslims. And if all muslims are dead, they cannot come here OR upset the apple cart.
> 
> Here endeth the lesson. Let them gas other muslims until the cows come home.


Harsh toke, dude! I don't wish anyone be gassed or otherwise killed. Like you, however, I don't want them in our country. They do not share our values. They bring with them a culture of death and oppression. They are not compatible with our way of life.


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## Inor

Denton said:


> Harsh toke, dude! I don't wish anyone be gassed or otherwise killed. Like you, however, I don't want them in our country. They do not share our values. They bring with them a culture of death and oppression. They are not compatible with our way of life.


Any group, religious or otherwise, that states as a main purpose to kill as many "non-believers" as possible, is not compatible with life on this earth.

Please understand, I am not suggesting anybody go out and kill muslims, but I am also not suggesting they prevent it either.


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## The Tourist

Smitty901 said:


> You want them to stay in their home shitholes . How has that worked so far?


Well, frankly, it ain't working at all. But that's not my point.

Look, I know you have to shoot the mugger, the banger and the jihadist. I also know the adage, "Killing kills the killer." In other words, you get your hands dirty and it stays with you for a lifetime. This is why I "dislike" terrorism, or the kind of dick-waving North Korea does.

Even as a kid, my dad tried to explain "world domination" to me. Truth be told, it never made sense. In fact, anyone that espouses it has a screw loose.

Hence my belief, "no boots on the ground." We have ICBMs that can carry any payload, not just nuclear. We have B1Bs and B2s in South Dakota that can make the trip to some despot's palace, GPS systems that computer pinpoint the target, and then fly the crew home before the weekend is over.

I don't care if my enemies die, I'm just tired of seeing American coffins come home.


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## Smitty901

The Tourist said:


> Well, frankly, it ain't working at all. But that's not my point.
> 
> Look, I know you have to shoot the mugger, the banger and the jihadist. I also know the adage, "Killing kills the killer." In other words, you get your hands dirty and it stays with you for a lifetime. This is why I "dislike" terrorism, or the kind of dick-waving North Korea does.
> 
> Even as a kid, my dad tried to explain "world domination" to me. Truth be told, it never made sense. In fact, anyone that espouses it has a screw loose.
> 
> Hence my belief, "no boots on the ground." We have ICBMs that can carry any payload, not just nuclear. We have B1Bs and B2s in South Dakota that can make the trip to some despot's palace, GPS systems that computer pinpoint the target, and then fly the crew home before the weekend is over.
> 
> I don't care if my enemies die, I'm just tired of seeing American coffins come home.


 I know all about it staying with you.


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## The Tourist

Here's a personal example of why I feel this way.

As a boy, my dad used to take the family to a little diner in the old Capitol Court in Milwaukee. Dad was never armed, and my mother openly wore jewelry. Milwaukee was known as one city where the "melting pot" idea worked. I never saw even a fist fight at that cluster of businesses.

Below are my normal, everyday "go shopping" pants. I have a bunch of friends who gather at the Barnes and Nobel cafe' and we drink substandard, over-priced coffee and exchange yarns and jokes. This place is right off the food court, the scene of many fights, arrests and now sworn officers are teaming up with private security. In fact, the remodeling will include a new police office.

My friends and I sit in a corner location, allowing us to see all the exits. And yes, there are seven cameras in that B&N.

And that's the problem with being a boomer. I remember the quiet dinners with my family. And I never thought I might have to shoot my way out of a coffee shop.

I'm disgusted by it, but it's the new reality. And I'll bet there are lots of coffee shops all over America where citizens respond in the same fashion.


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## rice paddy daddy

Smitty901 said:


> I know all about it staying with you.


Yes.
No matter how right or necessary it is at the time, it changes a person forever.
(Unless he is mentally unbalanced to begin with)


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## Smitty901

rice paddy daddy said:


> Yes.
> No matter how right or necessary it is at the time, it changes a person forever.
> (Unless he is mentally unbalanced to begin with)


 Because it stays with you does not mean what you were involved in or what you did was wrong. No one will lay that trip on me.


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## Denton

Smitty901 said:


> Because it stays with you does not mean what you were involved in or what you did was wrong. No one will lay that trip on me.


I don't think anybody would think of doing that. Not here, anyway. After all, @Inor finds punching hippies to be his favorite hobby. I think it keeps him young.


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## rice paddy daddy

Smitty901 said:


> Because it stays with you does not mean what you were involved in or what you did was wrong. No one will lay that trip on me.


That's not what I meant at all, Smitty.
I was affirming your point that combat changes a person.
In ways those who weren't there can never understand.
That's one reason the Brotherhood is so strong. Whether we served together or not, we are brothers from another mother.


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## Smitty901

rice paddy daddy said:


> That's not what I meant at all, Smitty.
> I was affirming your point that combat changes a person.
> In ways those who weren't there can never understand.
> That's one reason the Brotherhood is so strong. Whether we served together or not, we are brothers from another mother.


 Oh I know that. No offense taken from anyone. At least not here.


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## Inor

Denton said:


> I don't think anybody would think of doing that. Not here, anyway. After all, @Inor finds punching hippies to be his favorite hobby. I think it keeps him young.


Punching hippies is not combat. Punching hippies is fun, I am guessing combat, not so much. That being said, neither one is, by itself, wrong.


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## MountainGirl

Interesting thread.
My position is:
sand to glass, 
gas to grass.


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## Denton

Here's a reason I'm keen on staying out of things.
Remember how we were told Assad gassed his people? If I recall, I argued it was BS. Why would he do that when he had gotten the upper hand? That his planes struck an ISIS cashe made sense.

Now Mattis Admits There Was No Evidence Assad Used Poison Gas On His People


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## The Tourist

Since we are now "energy independent," why should we be going into this region now?

They've been fighting amongst themselves for centuries, their refugees are defiling Europe, some of the aliens have come here and killed Americans, so on the whole, what will we gain by being noble?


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## A Watchman

The Tourist said:


> Since we are now "energy independent," why should we be going into this region now?
> 
> They've been fighting amongst themselves for centuries, their refugees are defiling Europe, some of the aliens have come here and killed Americans, so on the whole, what will we gain by being noble?


Petro Dollar.


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## The Tourist

A Watchman said:


> Petro Dollar.


Which I would be willing to give up if these zealots stayed in their own country.


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## Smitty901

The Tourist said:


> Which I would be willing to give up if these zealots stayed in their own country.


 There is nothing you can give up , no price you can pay that will make peace with them. They have one goal , one mind. Kill every last one of us. I would have though by now most would figure out you can not make peace with evil. You can not give the boarders and say stay there and we will not get involved . That does not work. We done that for to many years with NK and look where we are. We gave the peace, cash, oil food and everything else they wanted. It all went to build weapon to blackmail us with.


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## Denton

Smitty901 said:


> There is nothing you can give up , no price you can pay that will make peace with them. They have one goal , one mind. Kill every last one of us. I would have though by now most would figure out you can not make peace with evil. You can not give the boarders and say stay there and we will not get involved . That does not work. We done that for to many years with NK and look where we are. We gave the peace, cash, oil food and everything else they wanted. It all went to build weapon to blackmail us with.


Not sure how we got all apples and oranges, here.

The border should have always been secured. Down through the years, the borders were left open. Illegals came here because they could.
The Muslims? They've been brought here and tax dollars have been spent to create their strongholds. 
Sending troops abroad does nothing about either of these things.
What about North Korea? Do a little digging and you'll learn your tax dollars were used to create this problem, as well as insuring China would have the technology to be a nuclear threat.
The Asian problem didn't happen by accident. Still, here it is. Yes, in the case of NK, it is becoming a serious threat to the safety of Americans. It looks like it is going to have to be faced, but remember that all of this has come together because of traitorous administrations that go back years.


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## The Tourist

Smitty901 said:


> There is nothing you can give up , no price you can pay that will make peace with them. They have one goal , one mind. Kill every last one of us.


And honestly, that is my "fall-back" position. Knowing that several jihadist groups use multiple members, I carry lots of spare magazines.

It's getting to the point that if you hear loud yelling, especially swearing, most of the locals think "bangers." My philosophy is that I am not giving any ground, I'm not staying home, I'm not going to a restaurant I don't like, I'll stay out after dark if I want to--do all of these things rather than surrender my freedom and become housebound.

Sure, I fear some religious nut with a Kalashnikov as much as anyone. In fact, I'm waiting for American militias to operate in the open. I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember when the militia called "Posse Comitatus" took over a little burg called Tigerton Dells.

We've already had ranchers square off against federal agents. And my guess is that if jihadists die from civilian gunfire and no innocent civilians are harmed, there probably won't be a whole lot of investigation done.


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## SanAntonioPrepper

Israeli plane shot down by Syria. Israel is our ally. Act of war by Syria?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/10/middleeast/israel-military-jet-crash/index.html

For those of the viewpoint only get more involved if an ally is attacked, should we get more involved now that an Israel plane was downed or just let Israel deal with itself and we should mind our own business and not be the world police?


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