# Am I the only one here who isn't a gun enthusiast?



## Nova

To be honest, i'm more for the bow and arrow. Planning to get one and learn how to use it when I have more money. To me, guns seem like they will be useful but when all the ammo runs dry, everyone else will have to switch to a bow and arrow anyways. Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

I am, to say the least, a gun enthusiast, and I have to tell you that you are far more likely to run out of pre-made arrows than I am to run out of ammo. 

I too would rather not kill anybody, nor do I ever intend to kill anybody. I don't know anybody on this forum who would "rather kill anybody". I too would rather avoid conflict all together, I think it's a pretty universal view here at prepperforum. Having said that, we sometimes do not get "what we would rather have". 

Hey, if guns are not your thing, that's cool, to each their own... I like bows and arrows too.


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## Kauboy

Sometimes, despite our best efforts, conflict comes to us.
Being ready to deal with it in the most efficient and effective manner is our responsibility.
Personal protection with a firearm can fulfill that.
It would be quite impractical to carry a bow and quiver with me all day.

You are quite right, however, about when ammo runs dry.
It is not an improbable possibility, regardless of how many rounds we stockpile.

That's why I took it upon myself to learn the fine art of bowyer, and can make my own weapons if the need ever arises.
It will remain a secondary option as long as my mags are full.


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## Big Country1

I enjoy anything that has a projectile....


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## Denton

Spent the morning at the range. Came back home just in time to meet the UPS truck as another thousand rounds were being delivered.

Guess there is no doubt about my position.


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## Anthonyx

Kauboy said:


> Sometimes, despite our best efforts, conflict comes to us.
> Being ready to deal with it in the most efficient and effective manner is our responsibility.
> Personal protection with a firearm can fulfill that.
> It would be quite impractical to carry a bow and quiver with me all day.
> 
> You are quite right, however, about when ammo runs dry.
> It is not an improbable possibility, regardless of how many rounds we stockpile.
> 
> That's why I took it upon myself to learn the fine art of bowyer, and can make my own weapons if the need ever arises.
> It will remain a secondary option as long as my mags are full.


I learned the art under the great Bear. I can make bows all day but have never made an arrow that wasn't more dangerous to me than the target.
I buy crappo target arrows by the truckload and put cheap broadheads on them - even those are better than any I've made.


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## James L

When the ammo runs dry? What if it never runs dry? Last time I checked, no one has the Disaster Blueprint. No one knows what will happen. To me, saying you won't get a firearm because some day the ammo might run dry is like saying you won't get a car because some day you might get a flat tire.

That being said, kudos to you for learning archery and how to make your own.


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## rice paddy daddy

Ammo runs dry?
The truly prepared, firearm wise, will have a muzzle loading flintlock smoothbore. Black powder can be home made, projectiles can be as low-tech as smooth pebbles. A flintlock needs no percussion caps, just flints.


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## Nova

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply anybody wants to kill anyone. I agree, each to their own. At the same time, I have to point out a few things...

1. Arrows are reusable if you can find them.
2. If you cannot find an arrow, you can carve new ones.

They are things I have to learn but it's not my first time doing archery. I used to do it as a kid.


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## Kauboy

Anthonyx said:


> I learned the art under the great Bear. I can make bows all day but have never made an arrow that wasn't more dangerous to me than the target.
> I buy crappo target arrows by the truckload and put cheap broadheads on them - even those are better than any I've made.


If you learned from him, you are leaps and bounds better skilled that I am.
I got my learnin' from the internets.

I've yet to produce an arrow, but I've studied the craft, and feel confident I could get by.


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## Nova

rice paddy daddy said:


> Ammo runs dry?
> The truly prepared, firearm wise, will have a muzzle loading flintlock smoothbore. Black powder can be home made, projectiles can be as low-tech as smooth pebbles. A flintlock needs no percussion caps, just flints.


Really? I didn't realize that. I'd actually love to see a guide on that if you know where I can find it. To be honest, I'm all for gun ownership and I have considered getting a gun but, at the same time, I worry about the safety of myself and those around me. I worry about what could happen if a firearm falls into the wrong hands.


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## oddapple

I can make plenty of weapons - the gun is primarily for the human predator of course

"Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together."

Well, I think the point is that if we can't avoid conflict or predation it is better to survive than be somethings dinner or even just random revenge target.

Haha if you seriously aren't running playbook, you really need to learn something about history and current events about what happens to females in these things.
There's so many now, one can go through them like paper towels before they get scarce enough to bother keeping.
What if just because you'll sell your soul to live in a goofy cradle, it doesn't happen like that or something happens before 911 comes?
If the cruddy commies win half of it, you'll have a zone and can sell your gun back for extra money then, in the great day and great land (oh puke me comrade) "where you no longer need one".
Until then, I bet your boyfriend is like you and couldn't tell a yard chicken no, let alone a mercernary.

I'm feral and completely independent capable without killing anything? Forest is my home I'm stuck here for a minute.
But I can shoot a snake off a branch from across the river and if anybody comes to take, tear up or kill, I will blast them flat dead the second I'm sure


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## Kauboy

Nova said:


> Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply anybody wants to kill anyone. I agree, each to their own. At the same time, I have to point out a few things...
> 
> 1. Arrows are *sometimes* reusable if you can find them.
> 2. If you cannot find an arrow, you can carve new ones, *if you can find the right material*.
> 
> They are things I have to learn but it's not my first time doing archery. I used to do it as a kid.


I went ahead and added the necessary caveats.
We think to ourselves that archery is a simple sport with simple tools.
We think this, right up until we try to replicate them.

Wooden arrows suffer tremendous damage if misused, and most are intended for soft targets only.
Fire a wooden arrow into a brick wall, the wall wins, and you don't get your arrow back.
Making a bow or carving up an arrow requires knowing a few things about wood, spine, moisture level, brittleness, compression strength, tension strength, and many other characteristics.
The bows you shot as a child are not going to be effective against anything other than the targets you shot as a child.

Being able to take game or defend yourself from attackers will require more than what a "Lil Comanche" kid's bow can provide.
You need to be able to draw at least 40# in order to have an effective weapon at hand. My wife is incapable of drawing this weight. Be sure you can.
Significantly more would be better.
I won't make a bow with less than a 50# draw weight.


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## Chipper

Don't bring bow to a gunfight.

If all you have is a bow you'll never have to worry when the ammo runs out. You won't be there.

I'm an FFL holder, guess where I stand.


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## tekniq

I like shooting guns but I'm not wild about them and they don't factor too much into my prepping. They are a useful tool IMO but like anything else, it's always good to have multiple options and backups. If a gun is the only way I know how to kill something or disable something, I leave myself in a very bad position in the event that I don't have one handy but need to disable or kill something. But I think a LOT of preppers feel the same way. 

I like practicing with other weapons partially because in general I've always been fascinated by paleo skills, too.. when I was 12 my dad taught me how to throw tomahawks so I practice with those and throwing knives. I also like using things like slingshots, and would really like to learn how to use spears and slings. My husband knows how to use a sword, too, because we're medieval history nerds and I got him swordfighting lessons for Christmas a few years back that he liked so much he kept at it as a full on hobby. 

I'd really love to learn how to do krav maga but the nearest place that teaches classes is an hour's drive away so that'll have to be on hold for a while!


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## Nova

I don't have a boyfriend, actually, and i'd rather you not bring my politics into this discussion. As for "what happens to females in these things", if you are implying that I am more vulnerable because I am female, you are definitely right. At the same time, my strategy for survival revolves around self reliance and avoiding conflict so i'm actually more worried for the men here who are planning on protecting a homestead than myself.


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## oddapple

Nova said:


> I don't have a boyfriend, actually, and i'd rather you not bring my politics into this discussion. As for "what happens to females in these things", if you are implying that I am more vulnerable because I am female, you are definitely right. At the same time, my strategy for survival revolves around self reliance and avoiding conflict so i'm actually more worried for the men here who are planning on protecting a homestead than myself.


Bwahahaha! OK that was my "just making sure" and thanks for the chuckles.


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## Nova

Thanks for the chuckle? I don't understand what you find so funny about that.


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## Kauboy

Nova said:


> Thanks for the chuckle? I don't understand what you find so funny about that.


That's actually quite common.
Most of us don't understand him 90% of the time either.
Don't look too deep into it.


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## Big Country1

Nova said:


> I don't understand


We know....


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## Nova

I see. Thank you for the advice!


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## Anthonyx

Kauboy said:


> I went ahead and added the necessary caveats.
> We think to ourselves that archery is a simple sport with simple tools.
> We think this, right up until we try to replicate them.
> 
> Wooden arrows suffer tremendous damage if misused, and most are intended for soft targets only.
> Fire a wooden arrow into a brick wall, the wall wins, and you don't get your arrow back.
> Making a bow or carving up an arrow requires knowing a few things about wood, spine, moisture level, brittleness, compression strength, tension strength, and many other characteristics.
> The bows you shot as a child are not going to be effective against anything other than the targets you shot as a child.
> 
> Being able to take game or defend yourself from attackers will require more than what a "Lil Comanche" kid's bow can provide.
> You need to be able to draw at least 40# in order to have an effective weapon at hand. My wife is incapable of drawing this weight. Be sure you can.
> Significantly more would be better.
> I won't make a bow with less than a 50# draw weight.


NatAm bows are usually low powered. What shoots fine with a 25lb can shatter with a 50lb.

I know a young man who shot a cheap arrow through a heavy bow - it snapped in the middle and the rear half went through his wrist.

I shoot my cheapo arrows through a light glass bow - with my Magnum I only shoot my expensive arrows.

A box of 20 .308 is a lot cheaper than 20 top quality shafts.


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## tekniq

Something else to consider about bows is that the way they are currently taught to be used is not a way that would ever be effective in a conflict. Standing still while you aim and pulling one arrow at a time to string then fire is slow and not very dynamic.

Here's a good youtube 



 about Lars Anderson, the current record holder for the world record of arrow speedshooting, and his archery style. The way he practices archery is how they did it in the middle ages when it wasn't just for target practice or hunting, and is way better for combat but also much harder to learn. It's also not commonly taught. I wouldn't want to go against this dude even with a gun but I also doubt he'd want to have to do battle with someone with a gun, haha.


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## Nova

I'm not actually planning on using a bow to defend myself. I'm just going to be using it for hunting. I have considered getting a gun, to be honest. But I only want to use it as a last resort (for example, i'm cornered.) I'm hoping I won't have to rely on myself entirely anyways: that I will be in a situation where I can rely on family and friends to help me out in a really bad situation. That said, if worse comes to worse, i'm going to be prepared to live by myself.


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## Denton

Nova said:


> To be honest, i'm more for the bow and arrow. Planning to get one and learn how to use it when I have more money. To me, guns seem like they will be useful but when all the ammo runs dry, everyone else will have to switch to a bow and arrow anyways. Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together.


Firearms are worthless if one doesn't have the skills to employ them. Training and practice are necessary. Gathering food with them takes even more skill. These skills are not inherent.

Fabricating functional, accurate primitive weapons and properly employing them is a whole new level of skill and practice.

As far as avoiding conflict (I notice your attitude isn't reflected on the board), people have a way of bringing conflict to others. If the crap hits the fan and millions of people are without restraint, it is illogical to assume one will avoid others, and when contact is made, others will not have firearms and bad intentions.


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## ApexPredator

Either way your not putting the cat back in the bag, people seem to think that all tech every where will stop or go completely dark age,but it wont. Id say get yourself a dam good gun and plenty of rounds but if your a decent archer that's a skill few can match (suppressors are a little hard to get a hold of).


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## oddapple

Kauboy said:


> That's actually quite common.
> Most of us don't understand him 90% of the time either.
> Don't look too deep into it.


Oh yeah play a weak hair is one thing, but not being able to help it is funnier to me.

Of course it's ridiculous that you're going into the woods with your bow to make friends with isis and govern retarded, insipid men - they know that too but they have to try a jab when they think they see one.


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## Slippy

Nova said:


> To be honest, i'm more for the bow and arrow. Planning to get one and learn how to use it when I have more money. To me, guns seem like they will be useful but when all the ammo runs dry, everyone else will have to switch to a bow and arrow anyways. Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together.


So did you start this thread to state your anti-gun liberal socialist view or simply to antagonize as you did before? Or are you a fan of The Hunger Games? Nevermind, don't answer, I don't care because I see you as a troll.

But for funsie, my views are simple and because I'm a simple man (and knew a former World Champion Traditional Archer) I took a liking to Traditional Archery and benefited from world class training. I've owned a nice custom made Longbow and Custom made Recurve. Both were a joy to shoot and train with. If you are even somewhat athletic, and an intuitive/instinctive ability, you'll find a Traditional Bow challenging and rewarding. I exited the sport when my custom made Longbow snapped and damn near beheaded me. So watchout...

But, I'm here to tell you (having stored both arrows and bullets) I can store tens of thousands more rounds of ammo than I can arrows, by far...So, before my "ammo runs dry" I'll reserve 1 last bullet for you then take your bow and arrows...I may want to take up the hobby again post SHTF.

But please, let us know what you are looking at buying. There are some very knowledgeable archers on this forum. Compound Bow; Manufacturer? Or are you looking at a Traditional Bow? If so, Longbow or Recurve? Custom made or off the shelf? Do tell, and thanks.


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## Nova

oddapple said:


> Oh yeah play a weak hair is one thing, but not being able to help it is funnier to me.
> 
> Of course it's ridiculous that you're going into the woods with your bow to make friends with isis and govern retarded, insipid men - they know that too but they have to try a jab when they think they see one.


1. Isis is in the middle east. I'm not too worried about running into them in the woods.
2. The way you format your sentences makes it hard for me to understand what you are saying. I've read that last part 4 or 5 times now and I still do not understand what you are trying to tell me.


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## Denton

oddapple said:


> Oh yeah play a weak hair is one thing, but not being able to help it is funnier to me.
> 
> Of course it's ridiculous that you're going into the woods with your bow to make friends with isis and govern retarded, insipid men - they know that too but they have to try a jab when they think they see one.


Play a weak hair?!? Again, we use the same words but the languages seem to be quite different!


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## Denton

Nova said:


> 1. Isis is in the middle east. I'm not too worried about running into them in the woods.
> 2. The way you format your sentences makes it hard for me to understand what you are saying. I've read that last part 4 or 5 times now and I still do not understand what you are trying to tell me.


1. The enemy is not as far away as you might think.

2. You, too? Dang. We have been waiting for an interpreter for quite some time.


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## James L

Nova said:


> I'm not actually planning on using a bow to defend myself. I'm just going to be using it for hunting. I have considered getting a gun, to be honest. But I only want to use it as a last resort (for example, i'm cornered.) I'm hoping I won't have to rely on myself entirely anyways: that I will be in a situation where I can rely on family and friends to help me out in a really bad situation. That said, if worse comes to worse, i'm going to be prepared to live by myself.


If you are new to guns, here is a great place to start.

Gun 101: How to Choose Your First Self-Defense Weapon


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## James L

Denton said:


> Play a weak hair?!? Again, we use the same words but the languages seem to be quite different!


Hoked on foniks werkd for me!


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## Nova

To regard people that are saying that technology will not go away, there are a few things I would like to point out.

Technology is built around a very complex societal structure that will be gone when shit hits the fan. If you think technology is going to be around after, let me ask you this: Where are you planning on getting your materials to build this technology? You can scavenge parts for sure, but eventually all the infrastructure we built will decay. All the materials used to build technology have been mined from the surface so mining materials is not an option.

It may not happen in your life time, but eventually we won't be able to rely on technology for survival.


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## Kauboy

Nova said:


> 1. Isis is in the middle east. I'm not too worried about running into them in the woods.
> 2. The way you format your sentences makes it hard for me to understand what you are saying. I've read that last part 4 or 5 times now and I still do not understand what you are trying to tell me.


He continues to try, but never seems to acknowledge that we don't understand him.
He has a wonderful vocabulary, but the ordering of words, and their proper use, seem to be lacking.


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## Big Country1

oddapple said:


> Oh yeah play a weak hair is one thing, but not being able to help it is funnier to me.
> 
> Of course it's ridiculous that you're going into the woods with your bow to make friends with isis and govern retarded, insipid men - they know that too but they have to try a jab when they think they see one.


I think what he's saying is.... 
You playing "Innocent" is one thing but actually being someone that would rather piss on themselves while being raped, (because that what the gooberment says) is a hell of a lot funnier. Its completely ridiculous that you plan on walking into the woods with no means to protect yourself after SHTF. And finally Everyone else realize this but always tries to make fun of someone whenever they see an opportunity.

That's my interpretation anyways...


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## Denton

Nova said:


> To regard people that are saying that technology will not go away, there are a few things I would like to point out.
> 
> Technology is built around a very complex societal structure that will be gone when shit hits the fan. If you think technology is going to be around after, let me ask you this: Where are you planning on getting your materials to build this technology? You can scavenge parts for sure, but eventually all the infrastructure we built will decay. All the materials used to build technology have been mined from the surface so mining materials is not an option.
> 
> It may not happen in your life time, but eventually we won't be able to rely on technology for survival.


Good thing you came here to inform us of that. You know, we are just a forum of knuckle-dragging dolts who can't think beyond the next news cycle.

I feel better, now. 

Y'all have a great day. I have to go work for The Man so I can pay for that 1,000 rounds of ammo that was delivered this morning.


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## James L

Nova said:


> To regard people that are saying that technology will not go away, there are a few things I would like to point out.
> 
> Technology is built around a very complex societal structure that will be gone when shit hits the fan. If you think technology is going to be around after, let me ask you this: Where are you planning on getting your materials to build this technology? You can scavenge parts for sure, but eventually all the infrastructure we built will decay. All the materials used to build technology have been mined from the surface so mining materials is not an option.
> 
> It may not happen in your life time, but eventually we won't be able to rely on technology for survival.


I would encourage you to NOT get locked into thinking you know what will happen is everything goes bad. No one does. The plans and preparations you make need to remain flexible. Link to a great resource on this.

Don't attack someone else's SHTF plan as if you're psychic


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## Hemi45

Guns ... as 'Merican as Grandma's apple pie!!! 

Hell yes, I love me some firepower but I think being well outfitted and skilled in archery is a fantastic idea. In fact, this year I plan on taking archery instruction to see how I like it.

Jackhammers and chainsaws are fun as heck but sometimes the job requires a ball peen hammer or a delicate carving knife


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## Kauboy

Nova said:


> To regard people that are saying that technology will not go away, there are a few things I would like to point out.
> 
> Technology is built around a very complex societal structure that will be gone when shit hits the fan. If you think technology is going to be around after, let me ask you this: Where are you planning on getting your materials to build this technology? You can scavenge parts for sure, but eventually all the infrastructure we built will decay. All the materials used to build technology have been mined from the surface so mining materials is not an option.
> 
> It may not happen in your life time, but eventually we won't be able to rely on technology for survival.


This POV comes from believing that an end of the world scenario is unrecoverable.
If you think that is true, then you are correct.
However, history is a great teacher, and we have ample evidence from other countries and their own catastrophic events that shows us that society does recover.
Day 1 of TEOTWAWKI, our phones might stop working... or they might not.
Day 30, grid still down, most phones won't work at all.
Day 3,650, ten years later, society has recovered, and technology has started to come back online. You look down to check your freshly charged phone... and you have a bar!

The likelihood of finding ourselves in a permanent apocalyptic wasteland is low.


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## Hawaii Volcano Squad

Had to buy an extra MTM case guard 50 cal size ammo can last week because ALL MY OTHER AMMO CANS ARE FULL UP !
Buy a little ammo every other week and over time it adds up. Helps if you can manage to buy a case of rifle ammo every so often.
At this point, short of a major invasion of Hawaii by a foreign power there is no way in hell I am ever running out of ammo.


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## Slippy

Nova said:


> To regard people that are saying that technology will not go away, there are a few things I would like to point out.
> 
> Technology is built around a very complex societal structure that will be gone when shit hits the fan. If you think technology is going to be around after, let me ask you this: Where are you planning on getting your materials to build this technology? You can scavenge parts for sure, but eventually all the infrastructure we built will decay. All the materials used to build technology have been mined from the surface so mining materials is not an option.
> 
> It may not happen in your life time, but eventually we won't be able to rely on technology for survival.


Anything is possible but to believe in your theory as a strategy for preparations? I believe that to be ignorant, foolish and a result of reading too many Sci-Fi books.

The probability of an Apocolyptic Event that brings us back to the Stone Age and takes every bit of Technology that exists on Earth away from us is ridiculous.

So I ask you , if you truly believe that, why have you not bought your little bow and arrow set to prepare for it?

If not, you are indeed the fool that I believe you to be.


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## tekniq

Nova, paleo and low-technology skills ARE good things to have.. but the truth is that they're more useful in a temporary survival situation where the entire world hasn't gone to pieces but just your own situation. So like, surviving a plane crash and needing to stay alive. Having the skills to build a good shelter, knowing how to insulate yourself from weather, knowing how to build a fire drill and build a fire from scratch, knowing how to decontaminate water and forage for edible herbs, knowing how to weave fish trap baskets.. I could go on and on... all good things to know and GREAT as backups if you find yourself up dung creek without a paddle. 

BUT as far as a longer term survival plan goes, there are a few things at play. One is that it's not likely there's going to be a Mad Max situation. Anarchy and craziness may reign supreme for a small period of times immediately following whatever causes STHTF but human nature and lots of examples throughout history show that the violent period of chaos always comes to an end relatively shortly and some sort of order emerges-- because as much as humans can be violent and nasty, humans are also social creatures and communities always naturally form. The people who survive will know others who survive and anyone who decides to be a marauder is going to find themself at the wrong end of an angry mob. That order may be more violent and barbaric by current standards (lol isn't everything) but it's unlikely someone is going to need to be mowing down marauders for years and years and going to run out of bullets in that situation. And as someone else pointed out, re: technology, the chances of us getting knocked back to the stone age permanently is very small. Now we won't necessarily focus on and produce all technology but technology that is vital to our lives will be given priority once the immediate danger has passed and things begin to stabilize. 

So it's probably a good idea to have back-up ways to do things and to not put all of your eggs into one "technological basket". That being said, IMO it would be silly to not utilize the best available technology as your main plan when prepping.

Anyway, sorry for writing a novel guys, hahahaha.


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## Vulture

I'm far from a gun nut. I don't particularly like using them and there are trees that are better shots than me, but when TSHTF you can be sure I'll have my shotgun in hand. Yes ammo is limited, but a gun is an invaluable survival tool. Even without ammo, it can still be the difference between a group attacking me or deciding it's not worth the risk.


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## Diver

There is no reason I can think of that would stop one from owning both guns and bows (plural on each). As for concern about firearms accidents, there are very simply rules for firearms safety. However, to be truly safe you have to really observe them, not just give them lip service. Get some safety training and see if you feel the same way about firearms. You may find your fears diminished by just knowing how to be safe.


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## rice paddy daddy

Nova said:


> Really? I didn't realize that. I'd actually love to see a guide on that if you know where I can find it. To be honest, I'm all for gun ownership and I have considered getting a gun but, at the same time, I worry about the safety of myself and those around me. I worry about what could happen if a firearm falls into the wrong hands.


Become a subscriber to The Backwoodsman Magazine. NOT to be confused with ANY OTHER magazine that has the word Backwoods in the title.
There is only one like it.
Honestly, I do not understand why more "preppers" do not read this magazine.

Backwoodsman Magazine

Simply read the "about us" on the main page, left hand side to see what they are about. I have been a subscriber for over twenty years.


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## rice paddy daddy

Vulture said:


> I'm far from a gun nut. I don't particularly like using them and there are trees that are better shots than me, but when TSHTF you can be sure I'll have my shotgun in hand. Yes ammo is limited, but a gun is an invaluable survival tool. Even without ammo, it can still be the difference between a group attacking me or deciding it's not worth the risk.


Why don't you pop on over to the introduction section and check in with us?
Thanks.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Denton said:


> Came back home just in time to meet the UPS truck as another thousand rounds were being delivered.


Things that give me that warm fuzzy feeling deep down inside... a great beer on a lazy afternoon off, playing tug with cute puppies and having the UPS truck deliver another thousand rounds... ahh, now THAT's living...


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## Camel923

Probably the best way to view it is that firearms and archery are both tools. Different jobs or situations require different tools to do the job efficiently. You do not need to exclude one or the other unless you chose to do so. Just remember when all you have is a hammer everything best be a nail or you may have problems accomplishing the task at hand.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

rice paddy daddy said:


> Ammo runs dry?
> The truly prepared, firearm wise, will have a muzzle loading flintlock smoothbore. Black powder can be home made, projectiles can be as low-tech as smooth pebbles. A flintlock needs no percussion caps, just flints.


Besides prepping, those black powder smoke poles are a hoot to shoot... they make really cool big fireballs


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Denton said:


> 1. The enemy is not as far away as you might think.
> 
> 2. You, too? Dang. We have been waiting for an interpreter for quite some time.


We need an Oddapple to English translation page.


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## slewfoot

I guess you can say I am not a gun enthusiast, I carried one my whole career now I carry for personal protection. We go to the range every few months to keep our skills up but other than that, no I do not drool over every kind of the newest weapon to hit the market nor do I read gun magazines .


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## Charles Martel

Proficiency with firearms might just be the single most important skill a person can have post SHTF. Being able to make shelter, procure water, grow food, provide your own medical care, manufacture clothing, etc. will mean nothing if you can't keep and defend what is yours. If you had something that I wanted and I was armed with an HK-91, and you had only a bow and arrows (and we were equally skilled with our respective weapons), what was yours will almost certainly become mine. It's really that simple. 

Bows have some advantages over firearms (they're quieter, and can be manufactured and maintained with very simple technology...I have bows that I would employ for hunting and special tactical situations), but, relying on a bow as your primary means of defense is folly.


----------



## James L

Charles Martel said:


> Proficiency with firearms might just be the single most important skill a person can have post SHTF.


I would have to completely disagree with this. I have experienced several disaster situations where firearms never once placed a role. My apartment got hit by a tornado several years ago. I worked in Moore Oklahoma the following year after 24 people lost their lives and over $2 billion dollar in damage done by a tornado. I lost power for two days in a freak ice storm a few years ago. Prepping isn't just about firearms and waiting for the end of the world.

I'm not saying not to be prepared for TEOTWAWKI. But the chances of something like a hurricane or house fire are far greater than a zombie apocalypse or CME.


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## Hemi45

James you make a great point! I suspect that while rooted in realistic "what if's" ... there is an aspect to prepping that allows people to suspend disbelief and do a little PAW fantasy roll playing. I mean, look at the thousands of books that do exactly that.


----------



## Charles Martel

James L said:


> I would have to completely disagree with this. I have experienced several disaster situations where firearms never once placed a role. My apartment got hit by a tornado several years ago. I worked in Moore Oklahoma the following year after 24 people lost their lives and over $2 billion dollar in damage done by a tornado. I lost power for two days in a freak ice storm a few years ago. Prepping isn't just about firearms and waiting for the end of the world.


Clearly not. Nobody said that prepping was about waiting around for the end of the world.

The SHTF scenario you experienced was fairly limited in scope and severity. Rule of law was never compromised, and while certain basic services were temporarily lost, large numbers of people weren't displaced, hungry, or scared. Your particular scenario is not what comes to my mind when I think "SHTF". To me, SHTF is much larger in scope and severity, and involves some degree of societal breakdown/WROL.



> I'm not saying not to be prepared for TEOTWAWKI. But the chances of something like a hurricane or house fire are far greater than a zombie apocalypse or CME.


Sure. Which is why we "prep" for all things. However, In a true SHTF/WROL scenario (not necessarily TEOTWAWKI), I believe firearms skills and marksmanship may be the most important skill an individual or group can have.


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## jimb1972

I like bows, I like guns, I have more than one of both. Being able to take game or defend your self without drawing attention might be a handy skill to have.


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## TacticalCanuck

Enjoy what you want no one will judge. Unless a war broke out Id have ammo for a very long time.


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## Smitty901

It will be a long time before we run out of ammo or weapons. When they come to take what is ours and it will happen , I hope they show up with a bow and a Knife.
Bow did not work out for some in the past


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## James L

Charles Martel said:


> Clearly not. Nobody said that prepping was about waiting around for the end of the world.
> 
> The SHTF scenario you experienced was fairly limited in scope and severity. Rule of law was never compromised, and while certain basic services were temporarily lost, large numbers of people weren't displaced, hungry, or scared. Your particular scenario is not what comes to my mind when I think "SHTF". To me, SHTF is much larger in scope and severity, and involves some degree of societal breakdown/WROL.


To me, losing your residence though catastrophic means qualifies as SHTF event. Being prepared for SHTF can certainly be limited in scope. The residents of Moore Oklahoma would agree. 



> Sure. Which is why we "prep" for all things. However, In a true SHTF/WROL scenario (not necessarily TEOTWAWKI), I believe firearms skills and marksmanship may be the most important skill an individual or group can have.


We will have to agree to disagree then. For example, I view having firearms and bullets but no means to procure water as a fatal flaw.


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## Seneca

There is more to making a quality bow than meets the eye. Oddly enough a coworker recently asked me if I would ever consider getting back into making bows. The question took me by surprise and my reply was I might. I still have the tools/equipment and most importantly the knowledge, it would simply be a matter of setting it all up and ordering the materials. 

In a true SHTF situation the bow would not be my first choice for defense. As much as I like archery the bow and arrow would take a back seat to more advanced weaponry.


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## 1skrewsloose

Fight fire with fire, and don't bring a bow or knife to a gun fight. Everyone else for the most part will have them. Makes sense to be on equal grounds.


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## graynomad

Yes it's true that 100 years post SHTF all current tech *may * have disappeared and people are relying on paleo skills. BUT, those people will be the descendants of firearm owners, not bow-only owners.

As for us, sure the ammo will run out one day (assuming things last for years, not a given by a long shot), but that day would be a heck of a long way down the track and when/if it comes the best way to still be alive at that point is to have been using a firearm. I'm a big fan of archery but as the old saying goes "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight", you bring a gun if you want to see the other side of the fight. And if there is a fight rest assured it will be a gun fight, not a bow fight.

Sure bows have advantages as has been mentioned above (and in a million other places), in theory you can whittle a full kit from a tree, good luck with that unless you do some real training now. The other main plus to bows is the fact that they are quiet, anyone heard a suppressed 22 lately? I thought not, yeah the firer heard the action and that's about it, for a bolt action not even that. And how many 22 rounds would fit in a typical bow quiver? And how long does it take to find shot arrows? And how long does it take to make new ones?

I plan to get back into archery that's for sure, and it may become an important part of my prepping, but a few good guns come first.


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## cdell

You could consider me to be a gun enthusiast.......bow and arrows are cool too. I will buy one eventually and tuck it away for a rainy day.


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## alterego

Nova said:


> To be honest, i'm more for the bow and arrow. Planning to get one and learn how to use it when I have more money. To me, guns seem like they will be useful but when all the ammo runs dry, everyone else will have to switch to a bow and arrow anyways. Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together.


I'm not either. Never touch the stuff.

I believe sticks and stones are better than names to defend my self in this world.


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## csi-tech

I am an archery and gun enthusiast. I also believe that there is a place at the table for everyone, I just happen to provide the meat. Others provide the vegetables and fruit while others contribute what they can. While I am politically right leaning (way right) I also believe in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. People are not all like me. Together we are strong. E Pluribus Unum. From many one.


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## Prepared One

Mmmmm. Again.


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## sideKahr

Be a good shot with a bow AND a gun. Why limit your skills?


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## Notsoyoung

Using the logic that someday you might run out of ammo so why try, someday you will run out of stocked food, so why try?

I have no intention of looking for people to shoot if the SHTF, but I want to be prepared for OTHER people who might want to hunt down and shoot ME. Does anyone really believe that in the absence of law people will have a kumbiya moment and there won't be anyone who tries to take whatever they can from others? Frankly, it happens NOW, so how much worse will it get if the SHTF? I think that it could get pretty bad.

I have read that the period that will have the highest mortality rate in a SHTF situation will be in the first year. Although preparations for long term survival is important, don't forget the first one or two years. In addition, ammo stored properly will last for decades and decades, so yes, eventually ammo might run out, but how long are we talking about? 20 years? 50 years? When I worry about whether or not I have enough ammo, I store some more.


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## Anthonyx

An anti-soviet partisan in Lithuania found a buried beer bottle full of 9mm that had been buried during the nazi occupation. He pulled the rounds and dried the powder, then reloaded them and they worked fine.


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## Moonshinedave

I really don't consider myself a gun enthusiast, I know people who have enough weapons to outfit a small army and tons of ammo for each. I know people who have many guns they have never even shot, they love guns, they collect them, those IMO are gun enthusiasts.
My weapons are tools my ammo is supplies, just like anything else to do with prepping. Everything needed to make ammo can be made if determined enough, like like arrows, if we are talking in the distant future. But to me honest at my age, I'll be long gone before the world's supply of ammo is gone even if the last bullet was made today. As for my personal supply, lets just say, it's not one of my biggest worries.


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## Denton

csi-tech said:


> I am an archery and gun enthusiast. I also believe that there is a place at the table for everyone, I just happen to provide the meat. Others provide the vegetables and fruit while others contribute what they can. While I am politically right leaning (way right) I also believe in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. *People are not all like me. Together we are strong. E Pluribus Unum. From many one*.


You realize not every ideology has equal merit, right? Not every person shares equal load, and E Pluribus Unum meant a nation made from many states, and not, "Hey! I'd like to buy the world a Coke," right?

Take off that tie-dye shirt, turn off the Grateful Dead and get back to Reality World. You are scaring me. :disillusionment:


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## Maine-Marine

Nova said:


> To be honest, i'm more for the bow and arrow. Planning to get one and learn how to use it when I have more money. To me, guns seem like they will be useful but when all the ammo runs dry, everyone else will have to switch to a bow and arrow anyways. Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together.


ow the heck can you be a bow and arrow person IF YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW HOW TO USE THEM YET...

by that logic -i am a NUKE MAN...


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## Hemi45

maine-marine said:


> ow the heck can you be a bow and arrow person if you do not even know how to use them yet...
> 
> By that logic -i am a nuke man...


bwaaaaw hahahaha !!!!!!!!!


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## oddapple

Bows and arrows are the fantasy and abject animal cruelty the reality.

People with no business outside a gerbil cage want to feel real, so they shoot a hapless animal with a dirty stick.
Now, the animal must languish and suffer for a week or more while it dies of septic infection slowly and miserably, unable to help itself.
That is why I have found you so frustrating and the first animal I have to help wandering with arrows stick in it? Will be the last for whatever "village" I track that arrow back to.
Won't be worried. A gun less woman there will explain how bows and arrows are right because of ignorant vanity of fools.


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## James L

oddapple said:


> Bows and arrows are the fantasy and abject animal cruelty the reality.
> 
> People with no business outside a gerbil cage want to feel real, so they shoot a hapless animal with a dirty stick.
> Now, the animal must languish and suffer for a week or more while it dies of septic infection slowly and miserably, unable to help itself.
> That is why I have found you so frustrating and the first animal I have to help wandering with arrows stick in it? Will be the last for whatever "village" I track that arrow back to.
> Won't be worried. A gun less woman there will explain how bows and arrows are right because of ignorant vanity of fools.


:ambivalence:


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## Denton

oddapple said:


> Bows and arrows are the fantasy and abject animal cruelty the reality.
> 
> People with no business outside a gerbil cage want to feel real, so they shoot a hapless animal with a dirty stick.
> Now, the animal must languish and suffer for a week or more while it dies of septic infection slowly and miserably, unable to help itself.
> That is why I have found you so frustrating and the first animal I have to help wandering with arrows stick in it? Will be the last for whatever "village" I track that arrow back to.
> Won't be worried. A gun less woman there will explain how bows and arrows are right because of ignorant vanity of fools.


I agree.

Take heart, though. What are the chances of her scoring a hit?


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## bigwheel

Moonshinedave said:


> I really don't consider myself a gun enthusiast, I know people who have enough weapons to outfit a small army and tons of ammo for each. I know people who have many guns they have never even shot, they love guns, they collect them, those IMO are gun enthusiasts.
> My weapons are tools my ammo is supplies, just like anything else to do with prepping. Everything needed to make ammo can be made if determined enough, like like arrows, if we are talking in the distant future. But to me honest at my age, I'll be long gone before the world's supply of ammo is gone even if the last bullet was made today. As for my personal supply, lets just say, it's not one of my biggest worries.


Similar sentiments here...Guns are tools. Ammo is supplies. Makes me feel much more comfortable to have one or more than to be running around nekked. Archery is a fun hobby but would not like to use the method for hunting or defense unless it was a last ditch effort at survival.


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## Kauboy

oddapple said:


> Bows and arrows are the fantasy and abject animal cruelty the reality.
> 
> People with no business outside a gerbil cage want to feel real, so they shoot a hapless animal with a dirty stick.
> Now, the animal must languish and suffer for a week or more while it dies of septic infection slowly and miserably, unable to help itself.
> That is why I have found you so frustrating and the first animal I have to help wandering with arrows stick in it? Will be the last for whatever "village" I track that arrow back to.
> Won't be worried. A gun less woman there will explain how bows and arrows are right because of ignorant vanity of fools.


I hope this wasn't an attack on all bow hunters. Otherwise, we're going to have words... :suspicion:
They'll likely be only half understood words, and cause many raised eyebrows and fits of weeping, but words they'll be.


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## James L

Kauboy said:


> I hope this wasn't an attack on all bow hunters. Otherwise, we're going to have words... :suspicion:
> They'll likely be only half understood words, and cause many raised eyebrows and fits of weeping, but words they'll be.


We already have half understood words with fits of confusion....please don't add to that!


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## BagLady

Nova said:


> To be honest, i'm more for the bow and arrow. Planning to get one and learn how to use it when I have more money. To me, guns seem like they will be useful but when all the ammo runs dry, everyone else will have to switch to a bow and arrow anyways. Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together.


I'm not going to read 8 pages of responses. Let me just say, with all due respect. Yes, you are in the 1% on this forum.


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## Will2

Nova said:


> To be honest, i'm more for the bow and arrow. Planning to get one and learn how to use it when I have more money. To me, guns seem like they will be useful but when all the ammo runs dry, everyone else will have to switch to a bow and arrow anyways. Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together.


Guns are tools, while they can kill people in civil society guns are more often used for hunting, not killing people. News reports human deaths more than animal deaths.

Even in the US which is much higher than Canada murder rates with guns are relatively low compare to things like knifings, and in the US it ain't due to ownership rates. Considering half of Americans own firearms murder rates are pretty damn low. US military kills more people with guns than US citizens. there are likewise may more police killings that is police killing civilians than other types of killing and police shooting incidences regularly get press.

Guns are a useful tool.IMO you shouldn't need to use any tool as a weapon, but people do get attacked and people have a human right to make a defence, the idea though is proportionality, if they arnt capable of killing you or causing serious bodilly harm using a gun is overkill. Some people think a gun should be the first and last self defence tool, this doesn't match with most legal jurisdictions.

Personally I think guns should be respected, they serve a purpose. I am libertarian so I supported unrestricted access for safety conscious users.
Do I think guns should be usable for self defence, yes. I don't think cops should be the only ones able to use firearms for self defence, sadly that is the law in Canada though, more or less.

If I were to say I would use a gun if someone attacked me with a gun, that would be a legal quagmire for me. There are just some things that don't make sense in Canada particularly self defence laws.

Guns are great though, as a history major, I have encountered how much firearms have shaped history. Their history is pretty cool.

It is very unfortunate that government has moved to restrict access due to the actions of a small number of people. Its hyper legislation, same with seatbelts and bike helmets. A few people die and they inconvenience everyone. Personally I support making better lives for people, not extending miserable ones.

Knowing how to use and make a bow and arrow or Spear thrower and spear can be useful for sure. Guns can be much safer and effective though. They can definitely kill too though.

http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/11...each-year-than-rifles-time-for-knife-control/
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc....-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11

Just ask yourself how many animals were killed or targets hit and gun use conceptualization changes. It ain't right to punish the many for the acts of the few. 100 million animals killed with a gun vs 6000 humans, what are people more likely to use a gun for?

Really if looking at us statistics, hanguns should have more monitoring, but rifles should be as free to buy, transport and use as knives. However based upon 100 million plus people owning guns 6000 murders works out to 1 person in a city resorting to gun violence, probably due to escalated violence or some other criminal activity. Why should everyone get punished for one persons act? Really. In Canada this is 130 murders around 25% of the US, handguns went as widely used in Canada though, its not due to rifle laws but rather handgun laws. We need to stop saying guns kill they should be criminalized and start saying handguns should be carefully monitored, and protective armour laws loosened to facilitate casual use in high crime areas to offset the handgun threat.

We need to examine why gun violence happens and cure those social issues, it ain't the guns its how they are used.


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## PaulS

The very old adage "don't bring a knife (or bow) to a gun fight" comes to mind. The time between "the beginning" and when most folks run out of ammo is going to be a long time. You are restricting your ability to get game and protect yourself by relying on only a bow. There are advantages with bows but generally speed and distance are not among them. I have guns that I can accurately shoot into the vitals of a human size target at 600 yards. with my bow I am limited to about 50 yards. Long before my ammo runs out I will have other things to use and a high powered crossbow is one of those. (I already have a good compound bow). 

Guns are the best defence against others with guns.


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## Charles Martel

James L said:


> We will have to agree to disagree then. For example, I view having firearms and bullets but no means to procure water as a fatal flaw.


If I have firearms and bullets, I will also have Nova's water.

See how that works?


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## James L

Charles Martel said:


> If I have firearms and bullets, I will also have Nova's water.
> 
> See how that works?


So really....you have the same preparedness plan as this guy. Haha







Seriously though....if we lose the grid for an extended period of time....you will need food, water, and shelter much more often than a gun.


----------



## Charles Martel

James L said:


> So really....you have the same preparedness plan as this guy. Haha
> View attachment 10548
> 
> Seriously though....if we lose the grid for an extended period of time....you will need food, water, and shelter much more often than a gun.


No...I have a fair number of guns and a reasonably large supply of ammunition, but, that represents only a fraction of my overall investment in prepping.

If we were to "lose the grid for an extended period of time", you would be dead and your preps would belong to somebody else if you didn't have the means to retain it by force.

I was on the ground in New Orleans (as an EPA advisor) during the days immediately following Hurricane Katrina. I have seen first hand what people become when they're hungry and scared. The grid was only down for a few days and people were robbing and beating each other for the scraps of food and water they were getting at the relief camps that popped up overnight in the Greater NOLA area. I felt unsafe and I had National Guard escorts with me everywhere I went. If that had gone on for even a couple weeks longer, the situation would have become positively tribal.

You simply cannot survive long-term in that sort of environment without being heavily armed. You will immediately go to the bottom of the food chain if you're not.


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## Slippy

I'm glad that Nova and others have the mindset that they don't need, or don't want or are afraid of guns so they don't own them. 

In a difficult situation, they may perish quickly and that makes me smile.


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## Kauboy

Slippy said:


> I'm glad that Nova and others have the mindset that they don't need, or don't want or are afraid of guns so they don't own them.
> 
> In a difficult situation, they may perish quickly and that makes me smile.


To tie this and the other thread together, their lower demand keeps prices lower for me!

Huzzah! Capitalism!

:mrgreen:


----------



## graynomad

Moonshinedave said:


> ...I'll be long gone before the world's supply of ammo is gone even if the last bullet was made today. As for my personal supply, lets just say, it's not one of my biggest worries.


One of the advantages to being an old fart


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## TacticalCanuck

I plan and budget preps - ammo and firearms are most definitely in that list.


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## 1skrewsloose

Think I read most of the posts. So, you're not anti-gun, just guns are not your thing? I'm OK with that.


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## tekniq

Well, to be completely frank... owning a gun initially caused a lot of anxiety and turmoil for myself, because I have a personal history of mental illness (PTSD) including a suicide attempt which landed me in the ICU. That was years ago and I'm doing pretty great now thanks to an experimental treatment I received from MAPS, but it was still a big concern. I like to think that I would never do that again, especially now that I'm married to my wonderful husband and we have our beautiful son who needs his mama, but I think it's understandable why I felt conflicted! If, Lord above forbid, I ever get that way again, I would want it to be hard enough that I have enough of a chance to change my mind. All of that being said, my husband pointed out to me we don't lock up the big butcher knives or keep me from driving my jeep or lock away the medicine cabinet... if I want to, I'm going to try, gun or no. In a weird way that kind of comforted me and made me realize that I needed to look at the gun like a tool, just like the knives in our kitchen and the medicine in our cabinets. I grew up shooting guns and being around them so it was kind of weird to realize that because of what I'd went through, I was afraid of them. Owning some, shooting them, using them for hunting, and so on helped me get over that fear and get back to seeing them as the tools they are. Any tool can be abused!


----------



## alterego

oddapple said:


> Oh yeah play a weak hair is one thing, but not being able to help it is funnier to me.
> 
> Of course it's ridiculous that you're going into the woods with your bow to make friends with isis and govern retarded, insipid men - they know that too but they have to try a jab when they think they see one.


What?


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## alterego

tekniq said:


> Well, to be completely frank... owning a gun initially caused a lot of anxiety and turmoil for myself, because I have a personal history of mental illness (PTSD) including a suicide attempt which landed me in the ICU. That was years ago and I'm doing pretty great now thanks to an experimental treatment I received from MAPS, but it was still a big concern. I like to think that I would never do that again, especially now that I'm married to my wonderful husband and we have our beautiful son who needs his mama, but I think it's understandable why I felt conflicted! If, Lord above forbid, I ever get that way again, I would want it to be hard enough that I have enough of a chance to change my mind. All of that being said, my husband pointed out to me we don't lock up the big butcher knives or keep me from driving my jeep or lock away the medicine cabinet... if I want to, I'm going to try, gun or no. In a weird way that kind of comforted me and made me realize that I needed to look at the gun like a tool, just like the knives in our kitchen and the medicine in our cabinets. I grew up shooting guns and being around them so it was kind of weird to realize that because of what I'd went through, I was afraid of them. Owning some, shooting them, using them for hunting, and so on helped me get over that fear and get back to seeing them as the tools they are. Any tool can be abused!


God bless you. I am glad you are better. Sorry for picking earlier.

I have a problem that house haunted me since I was a kid. I am an ass hole. I try to manage it. Sorry about the picking.


----------



## tekniq

alterego said:


> God bless you. I am glad you are better. Sorry for picking earlier.
> 
> I have a problem that house haunted me since I was a kid. I am an ass hole. I try to manage it. Sorry about the picking.


Oh I'm not the thread starter, that's Nova, I'm just someone who sort of gets the apprehension about guns but feels it's worth trying to overcome because as tools, they are very powerful and useful things. You never picked at me or anything, everyone on this forum has been very polite and friendly to me so no worries!


----------



## CourtSwagger

Allow me to save everyone some time and sum up this entire thread. "Am I the only one here that isn't a gun enthusiast?" Simply put, yes. Yes you are.


----------



## Stick

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Besides prepping, those black powder smoke poles are a hoot to shoot... they make really cool big fireballs


Look left.


----------



## Maine-Marine

James L said:


> Seriously though....if we lose the grid for an extended period of time....you will need food, water, and shelter much more often than a gun.


A statement of fact in front of a stupid remark

If we lose power over an extended period you will need water more then a hammer, or a car, or a wife, or a ...........

WHEN DID WE STOP TEACHING LOGIC IN AMERICA>>>

Having water and having guns are not related in the sense you are trying to put them...

Chuck Norris would punch you in the face for that lack of logic...


----------



## Maine-Marine

It never takes long to figure out who rode the small bus to school!!!!

now I wonder if you were a "window licker" or a "non-window licker"?


----------



## Prepared One

The original poster's question, it seems to me, is formulated to elicit a certain response for which, I suspect, she is either writing a paper for a College Course or a College Newspaper article. 10 pages on whether we are gun nuts or not?


----------



## James L

Maine-Marine said:


> A statement of fact in front of a stupid remark
> 
> If we lose power over an extended period you will need water more then a hammer, or a car, or a wife, or a ...........
> 
> WHEN DID WE STOP TEACHING LOGIC IN AMERICA>>>
> 
> Having water and having guns are not related in the sense you are trying to put them...
> 
> Chuck Norris would punch you in the face for that lack of logic...


Clearly you missed the point.....but whatever. Have a wonderful day. Guess it's time to finally use the Ignore feature...


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## tekniq

Prepared One said:


> The original poster's question, it seems to me, is formulated to elicit a certain response for which, I suspect, she is either writing a paper for a College Course or a College Newspaper article. 10 pages on whether we are gun nuts or not?


I kind of noticed this after the other thread in the politics forum. I don't share a lot of the same religious or political beliefs with many preppers so I've found it's much better to simply talk about the things we have in common. Not into guns? Just don't post about them and post about what you ARE into. You don't see people posting about how much they hate canning stuff, or how much they think rain water collection sucks! I don't want to call her a troll but it's hard not to roll my eyes. You can disagree with people without stirring the pot.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

"All war is bad, but sometimes they must be fought nonetheless."
Ralph Rotten circa 2010


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## csi-tech

I most certainly am not a "Gun Enthusiast"! I prefer to be referred to as a certifiable Gun "Nut", thank you very much.


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## Mad Trapper

Nova said:


> To be honest, i'm more for the bow and arrow. Planning to get one and learn how to use it when I have more money. To me, guns seem like they will be useful but when all the ammo runs dry, everyone else will have to switch to a bow and arrow anyways. Besides, i'd rather not have to kill anybody. I'd rather avoid conflict all together.


So how many thousand arrows are you planning on buying? Have you looked at cost of arrows vs 223/308?

Are you willing to invest the time to get good with a bow? I've shot mine until my arrows are silver with wear, that is 100 shots a day from 10-55 yds.

Why a bow if not to kill something? Fish Fur and Game are what bows are for.

Don't bring a bow to a gun fight, unless you are very sneaky and well versed in it's use.

Avoiding conflict is always the best course of action.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Really, why not prep for both eventualities? I have guns and ammo, and I also have a crossbow and a whole buncha old arrows that I can cut down, fletch, and nock as bolts. You can get all kinds of broken arrows at the archery ranges. Bowhunters need +30" arrows usually, but a crossbow only needs 16-20" of shaft, so I cut them down and salvage the old arrow. 

But then that brings up the issue with strings. They are kinda pricey to keep a gaggle of onhand, and they are very specialized, difficult for an amateur to make. 
My next archery purchase is going to be a recurve or a longbow. None of those damned space-age polymers and components and pulleys like the kids are all using. To hell with 60% letoff, I wanna man's bow made from lemon wood or Yew.


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## Ralph Rotten

Mebbe this weekend if I can find my archery kit I'll post some pics on arrow making. Using the glue for the broadheads, fletching, which saws to use on carbon fibre, stuff like that.


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## csi-tech

I was an avid bow hunter until a 3 1/2" magnum turkey load destroyed my shoulder. I can't hold a 60 lb. letoff bow at full draw for more than a few seconds. I have since transitioned to a Parker Tornado X-Bow and all is good. 12 carbon express bolts, red hot string and scope, Flambeau Stingray case and G3 Montec broadheads. I haven't missed the compound bow but I do regret never having taken a deer with my old Pony osage recurve bow and my crested cedar shafts.


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## Ralph Rotten

Ooooh, cedar shafts. That's the ticket.

Do you have trouble cocking your crossbow?


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## Hawaii Volcano Squad

csi-tech said:


> I was an avid bow hunter until a 3 1/2" magnum turkey load destroyed my shoulder.


You got hit in the shoulder with a 3 1/2 Magnum turkey load and you are still alive? Or the Magnum load recoil bruised your shoulder?


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## bigwheel

Well some of got us got behind in the thread about what yall are spatting about. How about giving each other a Shirtless Cyber Hug? Those are always nice. Deepest condolences on that shoulder. Had a fellow I know got his vaporized by an Naught Six at close range. Life altering experience.


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## csi-tech

Ralph Rotten said:


> Ooooh, cedar shafts. That's the ticket.
> 
> Do you have trouble cocking your crossbow?


Cocking aid makes it a snap. They also make little motorized cockers but I'm not there yet. Mine has two hooks, one on each side of the barrel and you just pull up and out until it clicks.


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## csi-tech

Hawaii Volcano Squad said:


> You got hit in the shoulder with a 3 1/2 Magnum turkey load and you are still alive? Or the Magnum load recoil bruised your shoulder?


I guess I should have clarified that one.  I was turkey hunting in the rain one morning and a scrawny jake came running by and stopped. I was braced with my back to the tree. I pulled the trigger on my Mossberg 835 UltiMag. I learned Newtons third law immediately. My shoulder was compressed between the oak and the force of the artillery piece that is the 3.5 inch magnum. I had a gigantic black and purple bruise the next morning, Then I had a massive lump appear and learned it had smashed the bursal sack. I still have a giant cyst and a significant strength deficit. My friend broke his collar bone using the same gun. I missed the bird cleanly too.


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## tinkerhell

bow and arrow crafting is a pretty good idea of something to try while out camping. i think ill try it.


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## csi-tech

I have often thought of getting a limb from an osage tree and making some cedar shafts. My taxidermist does flintnapping and makes some great arrowheads. He has one in particular with a basil notch that would be a great deer slayer.


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## bigwheel

csi-tech said:


> I guess I should have clarified that one.  I was turkey hunting in the rain one morning and a scrawny jake came running by and stopped. I was braced with my back to the tree. I pulled the trigger on my Mossberg 835 UltiMag. I learned Newtons third law immediately. My shoulder was compressed between the oak and the force of the artillery piece that is the 3.5 inch magnum. I had a gigantic black and purple bruise the next morning, Then I had a massive lump appear and learned it had smashed the bursal sack. I still have a giant cyst and a significant strength deficit. My friend broke his collar bone using the same gun. I missed the bird cleanly too.


Sorry to hear about that. Had jumped to the conclusion the joint had perished from the business end of the gun. Hope you heal up quick.


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## SOCOM42

Nova said:


> Really? I didn't realize that. I'd actually love to see a guide on that if you know where I can find it. To be honest, I'm all for gun ownership and I have considered getting a gun but, at the same time, I worry about the safety of myself and those around me. I worry about what could happen if a firearm falls into the wrong hands.


If your all that worried about them "falling into the wrong hands", 
then you either get one to defend yourself from them or consider yourself meat on the table for those who will be foraging when the SHTF.
You do not sound like you are preparing yourself mentally for any major event.
The PRIME items you need for survival are, food, water, shelter, GUNS AND AMMUNITION to keep all the other three.


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## shootbrownelk

James L said:


> I would encourage you to NOT get locked into thinking you know what will happen is everything goes bad. No one does. The plans and preparations you make need to remain flexible. Link to a great resource on this.
> 
> Don't attack someone else's SHTF plan as if you're psychic


 But...I knew you were going to say that!


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## turbo6

For awhile I was indifferent to the idea of getting a gun. I lived in a safe area and didn't see the need for it.

However I moved and that all changed. Crime was occurring way too close to home and I simply no longer wanted to be unarmed in the event of a break in, day or night. 
It took some time to convince the wife but the news is hard to ignore, so we inevitably became gun owners. 

Safety is a big priority, especially with a kid in a house but at the end of the day I'm pretty comfortable with the steps we take to ensure safety. Yes, hand gun theft is an issue but obviously we are not just leaving handguns sitting on the coffee table with our doors unlocked. 

Like a car, I do what I can to avoid theft. However, a determined thief can smash windows, pick locks, defeat an alarm, bust an ignition out etc...same goes with a gun. You can do everything you can and still be victimized. 

But that is just a unfortunate part of keeping your family safe.


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## Ralph Rotten

csi-tech said:


> Cocking aid makes it a snap. They also make little motorized cockers but I'm not there yet. Mine has two hooks, one on each side of the barrel and you just pull up and out until it clicks.


Barnett used to make a 175 lb crossbow that broke in half to cock itself effortlessly. Used to get used in a lot of movies. I'd thought about getting of those just for the step up in power from a 150 lb.


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## Anthonyx

Modern wood arrows are made by compressing wood in metal dies. That is why they can withstand the weight of modern bows.
Carving down soft wood into a shaft and shooting it through a heavy bow can have spectacularly nasty effects. The head can go one way and the fletched part another if the shaft snaps. Part of the arrow can end up sticking in you or a bystander.


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## rjd25

To the OP - Yes you are in the minority as far as not being interested in guns. Kudos for sticking to your principles and ideology no matter the crowd you are around. I would encourage you to continue to stockpile rations and other non-violent supplies as I may have use for them if SHTF. Now where do you live again? Judging by your previous posts I would assume you have no issue in redistribution of your supplies to those who were too lazy to prepare themselves right?


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## Stick

csi-tech said:


> I guess I should have clarified that one.  I was turkey hunting in the rain one morning and a scrawny jake came running by and stopped. I was braced with my back to the tree. I pulled the trigger on my Mossberg 835 UltiMag. I learned Newtons third law immediately. My shoulder was compressed between the oak and the force of the artillery piece that is the 3.5 inch magnum. I had a gigantic black and purple bruise the next morning, Then I had a massive lump appear and learned it had smashed the bursal sack. I still have a giant cyst and a significant strength deficit. My friend broke his collar bone using the same gun. I missed the bird cleanly too.


Aaoooww!! Dang!!


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## Kauboy

Anthonyx said:


> Modern wood arrows are made by compressing wood in metal dies. That is why they can withstand the weight of modern bows.
> Carving down soft wood into a shaft and shooting it through a heavy bow can have spectacularly nasty effects. The head can go one way and the fletched part another if the shaft snaps. Part of the arrow can end up sticking in you or a bystander.
> 
> View attachment 10577


I have never heard of wooden arrows being made this way. Mine certainly aren't. (cedar)
Any link to this technique?

Modern bows are nothing compared to old English warbows.
They were 150# minimum draw weights, and only fired wooden arrows.


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## Anthonyx

Kauboy said:


> I have never heard of wooden arrows being made this way. Mine certainly aren't. (cedar)
> Any link to this technique?
> 
> Modern bows are nothing compared to old English warbows.
> They were 150# minimum draw weights, and only fired wooden arrows.


The standard technique is to draw a dowel through a die much like drawing wire through a die.

The fletchers of Eighth Henry were master craftsmen skilled at selecting wood for shafts and fashioning them according to strict royal standards, and much of what they did vanished with their guild. Other countries lacked that industry and had to rely on crossbows. It was the equivalent of nuclear weapons and the crown vigorously protected that technology.

I have no idea how cloth yard arrows were made to withstand the weights of the longbow.


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## Kauboy

Anthonyx said:


> The standard technique is to draw a dowel through a die much like drawing wire through a die.
> 
> The fletchers of Eighth Henry were master craftsmen skilled at selecting wood for shafts and fashioning them according to strict royal standards, and much of what they did vanished with their guild. Other countries lacked that industry and had to rely on crossbows. It was the equivalent of nuclear weapons and the crown vigorously protected that technology.
> 
> I have no idea how cloth yard arrows were made to withstand the weights of the longbow.


Drawing hardwood through a die makes much more sense than what I was thinking when you said "compressing wood". Particle board came to mind. 

One way those old arrows were able to withstand it was they were a touch larger in diameter than modern arrows. Just an 1/8 of an inch more adds significantly more wood along the length. Still, with the higher weights reaching just under 200#, one struggles to fathom the compression forces at work on those little fibers.


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## Anthonyx

This is all I could find offhand - Forgewood Arrow Mfg.


"Forgewood Arrows are manufactured today, much in the same way they were originally back in the 1960's when Sweetland Products were making them (Bill Sweetland shown in photo). The same machinery has been restored and upgraded, along with some additional modern equipment, to create a similar high quality compressed hunting arrow, considered by most to be 'the best' wooden arrow shaft on the market. Those original Sweetland Forgewood Cedar arrows are still valued by collectors of Archery History.

Alaska Frontier Archery has the exclusive rights to the Forgewood Technology and keeps the exact process behind closed doors, so to speak. Other arrow manufacturers may claim to make a compressed arrow yet none use a complete compression process like ours. Some run their shafting through various smaller sized swedges, producing an outer layer of compressed material."



As you can see they are touchy about their techniques but compression is the term in general use - and cedar arrows are compressed.

Due to the geometry of longbows the arrow must flex to go around the bow belly - this flex was calculated and measured by the fletchers to a pretty precise degree. Without this flex the arrow has poor accuracy and is only good for massed volley fire where aiming doesn't matter.

The Earl of Huntingdon may have crafted arrows with his knife for light hunting bows, but the war bows of the Yeomanry used state manufactured arrows of high quality - available only to the king's forces.


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## PaulS

When I made my crossbow I also made the bolts for it. I used solid aluminum and drilled and tapped the ends for steel nocks and steel penetrator points. I didn't trust the tubular shafts to withstand the acceleration. When I build my new crossbow I will use tubular aluminum with a wood dowel pressed into the shaft. At each end a steel plug will be glued in place with the front plug drilled and tapped for tips. I am planning on a 200 pound pull with a 60% hold on a compound bow. The spring will be a flat leaf type steel spring with a 20 inch draw. The stock will be of laminated Hemlock and the lock mechanism will be made of steel. Since I have done this before I will incorporate some improvements to remedy the short comings on my first crossbow. The arrow tips will broadheads, penetration, slug and incendiary. I was considering an explosive tip but decided against it because of the limitations on such devices and the materials with which to fabricate them.


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## Kauboy

That's a cool process. Thanks for that!
Glad to read that compressed wood is not sawdust in the shape of an arrow.


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## Kauboy

PaulS said:


> When I made my crossbow I also made the bolts for it. I used solid aluminum and drilled and tapped the ends for steel nocks and steel penetrator points. I didn't trust the tubular shafts to withstand the acceleration. When I build my new crossbow I will use tubular aluminum with a wood dowel pressed into the shaft. At each end a steel plug will be glued in place with the front plug drilled and tapped for tips. I am planning on a 200 pound pull with a 60% hold on a compound bow. The spring will be a flat leaf type steel spring with a 20 inch draw. The stock will be of laminated Hemlock and the lock mechanism will be made of steel. Since I have done this before I will incorporate some improvements to remedy the short comings on my first crossbow. The arrow tips will broadheads, penetration, slug and incendiary. I was considering an explosive tip but decided against it because of the limitations on such devices and the materials with which to fabricate them.


An online build-a-long is now mandatory.


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## PaulS

Well, I do have a few projects on the list before the crossbow begins to take shape. I will document the process from the beginning when I start it.


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## bigwheel

Ok..seen a special on Bows on TV while back. They tested a typical English Long Bow...compared with the short squatty double reflex looking models as carried by Atilla the Hun and his bunch. Atilla's bow kicked Robin Hoods coola on all the tests. The winner was special custom built out of horn and animal ligaments etc. Might be hard to make one at home.


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## Anthonyx

The masters of the bow to this day are the Turks - who got their bow (like the Huns) from the Mongols - like Timur Leng, whose archers shot the Turks and their Euro type bows to pieces.

Forget making a horn bow, much less arrows that can be shot through one.


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## Kauboy

bigwheel said:


> Ok..seen a special on Bows on TV while back. They tested a typical English Long Bow...compared with the short squatty double reflex looking models as carried by Atilla the Hun and his bunch. Atilla's bow kicked Robin Hoods coola on all the tests. The winner was special custom built out of horn and animal ligaments etc. Might be hard to make one at home.


Robin's bow, being a medium sized and weighted longbow, would not be great for horseback and close combat, for sure. Short limbs and quick action are preferred for that.
Hood's would be more for mid-range, and on foot.
The bows we are talking about, that would require super strong arrows, were for long range vollies.
Atilla couldn't hope to reach the distance they could, and deliver a plate armor piercing bodkin into the chest of a knight 300yds away.

When it comes to making them, a horn bow isn't too hard to do if you know the steps and have access to a good steam box. Present day epoxies help tremendously.
Modern equivalents include using fiberglass, and they are excellent substitutes.


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## rice paddy daddy

bigwheel said:


> Ok..seen a special on Bows on TV while back. They tested a typical English Long Bow...compared with the short squatty double reflex looking models as carried by Atilla the Hun and his bunch. Atilla's bow kicked Robin Hoods coola on all the tests. The winner was special custom built out of horn and animal ligaments etc. Might be hard to make one at home.


I am not doubting you, however, the first time the French encountered the English Longbow massed in large numbers, things did not go well for the French, even though they outnumbered the English.
Although my main area of interest is WWII, there are some other battles that stick in my mind. This particular battle is the centerpiece in Shakespeare's play Henry V. I'm sure everyone recognizes one part of it: "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers................."
Battle of Agincourt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## bigwheel

Sounds plausible to me Sir. Did you ever hear the rumor that Shakespeare was an Eyetalian?
Was Shakespeare Italian? Who was the Real Shakespeare


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## Charles Martel

alterego said:


> ...I am an ass hole. I try to manage it. Sorry about the picking.


Aren't we all?

I re-read things I've said to people on this forum and cringe. I'd kick somebody's ass for saying some the shit I've said on this board.

Most of the guys on this forum are Alpha-males. We're a$$holes by nature. We apologize frequently and move on.


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## Anthonyx

Alterego has the best avatar - Iyam piss green with envy.

Gonna steal that rascal for another website.


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