# Why is EMP so divisive???



## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

Why is it whenever a question gets asked about EMP or the subject is brought up. It seems a lot of people are on extremes as to the effect or even if you need to prepare for it. I'm not entirely sure of the effects of it, just like a lot of other things I prepare for. I just continue to try to plan to handle it the best I can.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Like many threats it is there. Some of us have concerns on how much of a threat and likely hood of it being one in our case. We trained for it in the Army but we trained a lot harder and more on other things.
And effective EMP attach or EMP as a result of weapons used is a serious concern. We could spend all night listing and debating them. Some direct results others in direct.
Where I am if power grid goes down because of EMP while those in the city my have a real rough time we will be ok. If there was a major SHTF EMP attack, IMO it would mean time for full lock down SHTF stance anyway. I am just more concerned with things that are likely to happen, that do happen. Look right now what is going on MO. flooding. Weather is a much bigger concern to me than an EMP attack.
Civil unrest in major cities much more likely to effect us.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I have to admit, EMP prepping on my part is lagging. Its on my list.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

modfan said:


> Why is it whenever a question gets asked about EMP or the subject is brought up. It seems a lot of people are on extremes as to the effect or even if you need to prepare for it. I'm not entirely sure of the effects of it, just like a lot of other things I prepare for. I just continue to try to plan to handle it the best I can.


I don't recall it being divisive here. Some folks prep for it... others don't. I wouldn't worry about what others say or do but as you say, do the best you can.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't prep for an EMP.
If we have a nationwide EMP event caused by a nuclear weapon, that weapon would have to be big enough that electric functions would be the least of my worries.
The other scenario involves a solar flare. Have we ever had a solar flare strong enough to be more than a minor nuisance?

The chances are much greater that our homestead would be wiped out by wildfire or a hurricane or tornado.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

My EMP prep consists of a pair of 10-gallon Behrens metal cans (available at some home centers but most ag-based stores carry them). I've sealed the seams with the metal tape used by HVAC techs on duct work, but I don't seal between the body & lid. I figure I'm good for about 90% of EMP/CME events


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

To my way of thinking, based on some factual studies and many novels, the outcome could be anything between a 90% population decrease and a major inconvenience. I really don't know how to prep for an EMP specifically. I try to remain as ready as possible for "real life/everyday/probable" scenarios and hope that will see us through more extreme scenarios. I also accept that when God calls, your time is up no matter you have or haven't put back for a rainy day. Without SHTF events, there's enough crap happening right now to get worked up about. I try to keep a positive attitude, live as well as possible and remember the thing about life is, nobody gets out alive.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

modfan said:


> Why is it whenever a question gets asked about EMP or the subject is brought up. It seems a lot of people are on extremes as to the effect or even if you need to prepare for it. I'm not entirely sure of the effects of it, just like a lot of other things I prepare for. I just continue to try to plan to handle it the best I can.


divisive? ... not any different than other prep subjects - just people mostly that haven't done their homework and aren't intimate with the subject .... unfortunately there's several urban myths that keep feeding the misinformed - just ran into the old "microwave is a Faraday Cage" myth the other day .....


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

Back Pack Hack said:


> My EMP prep consists of a pair of 10-gallon Behrens metal cans (available at some home centers but most ag-based stores carry them). I've sealed the seams with the metal tape used by HVAC techs on duct work, but I don't seal between the body & lid. I figure I'm good for about 90% of EMP/CME events


not familiar with a "Behrens can" - but the lid to container body might be OK as is - everything depending on the fit and how they relate to each other ....


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Illini Warrior said:


> not familiar with a "Behrens can" - but the lid to container body might be OK as is - everything depending on the fit and how they relate to each other ....


I just make sure they're not beat to hell when I buy it.... no dents on the lid or around the rim, or it's been 'egged'.









https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/behrens-10-gal-galvanized-sheet-steel-garbage-pail


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

The major outcome of a major EMP strike, . . . of course is the immediate area will have devastation, fallout and contamination, etc. . . . but areas much further out, . . . will lose most if not all electronic / electrical apparatus and equipment that is not EMP protected.

The big threat, of course is the electrical grid. If it goes down, . . . and I do mean DOWN, . . . we are all of a sudden, living in the early 1900's or earlier, . . . and far too many people are not physically prepared to handle that.

With the electrical grid down, . . . no production of much of anything, . . . grocery store shelves will be bone dry bare in 5 days or less, . . . hungry roving bands of outlaws will be out and about, thinking they have the justification to be thugs just because nobody anymore is feeding them.

Hoarders and preppers will be hunkering down, . . . laying in what they can, where they can, when they can, . . . and in my case, someone will be in an overwatch position for every thing we do outside the house until I am certain that we can safely go out. But going out will still mean being armed, . . . just maybe not as militarily minded.

EMP is scary, . . . but as stated by an earlier post, . . . I'm thinking that we are more likely to be involved in 1968 style political riots. 

Snowflakes don't have enough sense to not push past the limit, . . . and when they finally do, . . . it ain't gonna be purty.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

WELL THERe'S TWO TYPES OF EMP'S TO BE CONCERNED WITH HIGH FREQUENCY EMP like the kind tht wouldcome from a nuke over head and will fry all your small electronic modules and computers...then the Low frequency type like the kind that comes from massive solar eruptions Like yhe one in the 1800'S that fried the telegraph lines, Solar EMP's are low frequency and will affect long er wires, like power lines and things connected to them.

One is people controlled the other is just a matter of time,,,its going to happen again.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

It's the *UNKNOWN*... and the fear of the unknown is hard to prep for, we've done some EMP testing in the Pacific after WWII, but we, or anyone else have never used an EMP weapon. And with an EMP weapon you may not have to worry about destruction or radiation as the typical scenario as it is a high altitude blast or HEMP, so we are counting on the damage from the electrical pulse.

Five days for the grocery shelves to be bare... more like five hours.

People will drive until they figure out that they can't pump gas, then they will steal gas from other peoples cars, then steal water, then steal food, then they will die on my doorstep.

*Rancher *


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Look on the bright side guys... If you have some food and water put back and have adequate security, having no T.V., no phones, lighting by candle or oil lamp, we might actually learn to reconnect with our families and loved ones again. It would definitely suck, but there is an upside as well.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

Inor said:


> Look on the bright side guys... If you have some food and water put back and have adequate security, *having no T.V., no phones, lighting by candle or oil lamp, we might actually learn to reconnect with our families and loved ones again.* It would definitely suck, but there is an upside as well.


There's a part of me that would love to shift back to that idyllic way of life tomorrow! The problem I see is the human mindset has degenerated so far since then that it would end up being all of the hardship with none of the accompanying pleasantries. Forty years ago there weren't smart phones, try taking one away from a small child in a restaurant and watch the shit show that ensues. I don't fear the loss of electricity. I fear the loss of civility ... the often mentioned "thin veneer."


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

a sudden EMP attack would be both a semi-blessing and a curse.. those of us in the know would immediately know the storm we are facing and can respond quickly 1-3 days ahead of the rest... but damn, it will be ugly...


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

EMP is so divisive because it has the potential to be so devastating with only one bomb that never even has to get within 25 miles of the earth's surface. It needs to be detonated about 30 miles up to be most effective. Even in a moderate case scenario what do you think would happen to the 100,000,000 people in the SW US without pumps to pump water over the mountains and into the cities?

Banking would not work so assuming gas stations can pump the fuel how are you going to pay? And your car may not work.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

Inor said:


> Look on the bright side guys... If you have some food and water put back and have adequate security, having no T.V., no phones, lighting by candle or oil lamp, we might actually learn to reconnect with our families and loved ones again. It would definitely suck, but there is an upside as well.


all good until a grandkid catches the measles and dies ... or you get a simple infected finger - there's more to the modern world than cell phones and cable TV ....

even the Amish aren't stupid enough to ignore the obvious benefits - the Wally World parking lot is full of buggies ....


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

Back Pack Hack said:


> I just make sure they're not beat to hell when I buy it.... no dents on the lid or around the rim, or it's been 'egged'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

In 2008, a commission was established to assess the threat and potential impact of an EMP strike on the U.S.
If you enjoy a little "light reading" (lol), feel free to check out the reports from that commission: Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack

Suffice it to say, the commission determined that the U.S. would likely experience a mortality rate of 90% within 2 years of a strike.
Studies by the National Academy of Sciences, the Department of Energy, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, and the National Intelligence Council reached similar conclusions.

So, I prep for it.

I don't live in fear of it. I don't worry with it 100% of the time. But I've taken a few steps to ensure that I will be better off than my neighbors if it should happen.
I too have a few things tucked away in that same steel can as mentioned earlier. These are temporary creature comforts really, and I don't consider them to be long-term assets.

I really should get around to proofing my backup solar panel, so I can at least have a little power.:stupid:


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> I really should get around to proofing my backup solar panel, so I can at least have a little power.:stupid:


I did so a few weeks back with a couple of my panels. Like you, I intend on having a little bit of electric power available. Even with just two panels, assuming the others got fried, I'd still be able to charge my two Humless solar generators & still be able to use my dc well pump... granted at reduced flow. But that is still better than the alternative.

http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/...l-talk/67209-protecting-solar-panels-emp.html


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## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

Perhaps, divisive is the wrong term. It does seem to be a lot of people who either completely believe it or don't believe there will be any impact.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

modfan said:


> Perhaps, divisive is the wrong term. It does seem to be a lot of people who either completely believe it or don't believe there will be any impact.


I still don't see what you are stating. Hard to imagine anyone that has even a rudimentary grasp of what that weapon can do in today's electronics controlled world, believing there would be no impact from its use.

I think many don't prep for its use simply because it is almost the worst case crisis... right up there with full scale nuclear war. Problem is, any electronics you want to EMP proof, basically have to be put in storage & not used. Sure, some Faraday enclosures can be easily opened, but at the point they are out, they are vulnerable. As with my solar panels that are protected, they are wrapped up. My solar generators are in open-able containers but they are nested, so they are sealed in EMP bags. That is what is so tough in prepping for EMP... the goods are not easy to get to & when is use, they are no longer protected.

An out of the blue EMP attack would be the worst. Otherwise, IMO preppers should understand EMP & how to protect electronics, plus have the product on hand to build Faraday enclosures. At a minimum, preppers should have just loads of aluminum foil on hand. If the news reported say a US attack on North Korea, for example, all should be putting up their most valuable electronic goods in EMP resistant enclosures... be it nothing more than a cardboard box wrapped in foil.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Have we ever had a solar flare strong enough to be more than a minor nuisance?


Yes we have the biggest was the Carington FLARE/EVENT 1859... of course it happened before major electronics.. it still caused morse code machines to spark and catch fire.. if it happened today.... it would be more then a little problem

1989 quebec .. lost power for 9 hours


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Maine-Marine said:


> ........ if it happened today.........


It almost did........ in *2012*.

An identical event was observed on the sun, but the brunt of the effect missed striking the earth. We basically dodged a bullet.

Lesser events occured in 1921 and 1960.


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## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

modfan said:


> Perhaps, divisive is the wrong term. It does seem to be a lot of people who either completely believe it or don't believe there will be any impact.


Believe it or not. A EMP isn't Y2K, which ever way it happens. It will be real unless you have permanently escaped to some alternate reality...


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

There are a lot of differing opinions on what will and will not prete4ct from EMP. Lot comes into play. What was the source, how strong how long ect. Not many even agree on how much earth it takes to protect from it . Have a room below ground 10 inch cement poured re-barb in it. If that don't do it, I'll have to do without. For now it holds my earthly physical treasures , my bikes. SHTF they will be moved out of the way for more important things.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Illini Warrior said:


> all good until a grandkid catches the measles and dies ... or you get a simple infected finger - there's more to the modern world than cell phones and cable TV ....
> 
> even the Amish aren't stupid enough to ignore the obvious benefits - the Wally World parking lot is full of buggies ....


If you are worried about a simple infected finger, I suggest you put back (and rotate) the 5 common antibiotics and learn how to use each one. There are plenty of posts on this site about them, where to get them and how to use them. I suggest you read up on some of the posts by Tired Nurse. She did a couple that were absolutely outstanding. If you do not know what I am talking about, you have no business calling yourself a "prepper".

On the measles thing, there is no doubt there would be a window of about 1-2 years where childhood illnesses would make a huge comeback and be a real problem. However, most children already born have already been immunized for MMR as well as Polio. For children born after the "event", that is a big problem for the 1-2 years it will take to get the critical infrastructure back functioning enough to create drugs. I am surprised you missed the more obvious problem; folks with a pacemaker.

But, I am pretty sure I mentioned in my original post (that you are taking issue with) that "it would definitely suck".

As far as the Amish, I do not give two hoots in hell what those anti-American pricks think about anything. I spent a fair bit of time in Lancaster County, PA and have seen their work and work ethic close up. 95% of what they build furniture-wise is absolute crap. I could go on and on about why I dislike the Amish. They are nothing but hypocritical looters! That and the fact they do not consider themselves Americans (even though they enjoy all of our benefits without contributing a damn thing to our culture); pack all their asses up and ship them back to Holland for all I care! (And make the Dutch pay the postage!)


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> In 2008, a commission was established to assess the threat and potential impact of an EMP strike on the U.S.
> If you enjoy a little "light reading" (lol), feel free to check out the reports from that commission: Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack
> 
> Suffice it to say, the commission determined that the U.S. would likely experience a mortality rate of 90% within 2 years of a strike.
> ...


I've read that an EMP strike would only harm the diodes on a solar panel. The panels themselves should be fine. I ordered spare diodes and packed them away with a spare charge controller and inverter in a metal enclosure. Just have a small gas powered torch to solder in the new diodes without benefit of an electric soldering iron. I hope this info is correct.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Chiefster23 said:


> I've read that ............. I hope this info is correct.


*This *is the reason it is so 'divisive'....... There's no real empirical proof of what an EMP can and/or will do to our tech-dependent way of life. Actual testing is skimpy at best, and most of it is over 50 years old.

The other reason is there is no one, single type of EMP 'event'. Everyone refers to a high-altitude nuclear detonation, but that's just one of many scenarios. Toss CMEs into the pot, and you've got a stew of possibilities.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> *This *is the reason it is so 'divisive'....... There's no real empirical proof of what an EMP can and/or will do to our tech-dependent way of life. Actual testing is skimpy at best, and most of it is over 50 years old.
> 
> The other reason is there is no one, single type of EMP 'event'. Everyone refers to a high-altitude nuclear detonation, but that's just one of many scenarios. Toss CMEs into the pot, and you've got a stew of possibilities.


EMPs and CMEs are on different levels. They are not interchangeable, so let's be sure not to confuse the two.

An EMP has two primary "pulses" or "waves" that will affect our way of life. The first is the "E1" pulse. This is caused by the gamma ray burst of a nuclear detonation. These gamma rays excite the electrons in the atmosphere surrounding the explosion, and cause them to "jump" off of the atoms they are bonded too. These free electrons do the same to other electrons, eventually cascading into a "wave" of free electrons moving out away from the explosion. These electrons do what all electrons do, and actively seek a home to bond to. Any conductor will suffice. This is a problem for the tiniest of conductors (transistors) because they are not designed to handle this huge flood of new voltage from these free electrons. So, as more electrons bond, the metallic elements overpower, and like the filament of a light bulb, burn out.
The second "wave" is given the name "E3". This one is a much slower moving wave, and takes a longer time to affect conductors. I've not familiarized myself with the exact mechanism at play, but this wave only affects long transmission lines of conductive material, like power lines and cables. They heat up quickly, and cook anything attached to them.

A CME **ONLY** produces an E3 wave. It *CANNOT* produce the E1 wave. There just isn't enough energy reaching Earth(thanks to our magnetic field) to ever allow that much energy into our atmosphere to trigger the chain reaction of an E1 wave.
The Carrington Event was a classic showing of an E3 pulse at work. Long transmissions lines literally caught fire, and anything attached to them was destroyed.

When the Sun goes supernovae on us, all bets are off. Good luck to those Earthlings a few billion years from now.


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## NKAWTG (Feb 14, 2017)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I don't prep for an EMP.
> If we have a nationwide EMP event caused by a nuclear weapon, that weapon would have to be big enough that electric functions would be the least of my worries.
> The other scenario involves a solar flare. Have we ever had a solar flare strong enough to be more than a minor nuisance?
> 
> The chances are much greater that our homestead would be wiped out by wildfire or a hurricane or tornado.


Granted everyday disasters are the primary prepping motivation, and other scenarios dovetail into general prepping quite well.
As for solar flares, there have been several big ones, going back to the late 1800's there was the Carrington event. Were that to happen today, it would be bad.
You don't need a solar flare for the sun to cause trouble.
Solar flares are not the only things which cause CME ejections, also Coronal holes will stream charged particles at earth.
The San Francisco power failure last month was likely caused by this.

As for the OP's question, the affects of an EMP could be so disastrous, that many people fall back into their normalcy bias and don't want to think about it.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Get your tin-foils hats on and read up on GRBs too.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Back Pack Hack said:


> Get your tin-foils hats on and read up on GRBs too.


Just to fan the flames, we're actually "looking down the barrel of the gun"(almost literally) at a potential GRB: Real Death Star Could Strike Earth

Sleep well.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> .......Sleep well.


I'm totally insane. Which means I sleep like a baby.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

It is scary and not well understood, since there have only been two cities nuked. An EMP would fuse and destroy so many electrical circuits, and bring near ruination to America.
But, even so I would say that the nuclear explosion is the biggest thing to worry about. There ain't nothing good about any of it, so I guess it can stir up emotions.


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## NKAWTG (Feb 14, 2017)

MisterMills357 said:


> It is scary and not well understood, since there have only been two cities nuked. An EMP would fuse and destroy so many electrical circuits, and bring near ruination to America.
> But, even so I would say that the nuclear explosion is the biggest thing to worry about. There ain't nothing good about any of it, so I guess it can stir up emotions.


But lots of above ground tests. They accidentally discovered the effects of a nuke detonated at high altitude when an EMP blacked out Hawaii back in the 50's.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

NKAWTG said:


> But lots of above ground tests. ..........


And when was the last test in the US conducted? 1991. That was *26 years ago*.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

We have all heard the 90% death rate from starvation after an EMP. Doe's anyone know of a reliable source for that figure?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## NKAWTG (Feb 14, 2017)

The last above ground test for the US was 1962, 1991 was the last underground test.
The last above ground test for any nation was 1980 by China.
But I'm not sure I get your point...


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