# Transporting Meth In Malaysia, Got Granny A Death Sentence.



## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Maybe it's me, but she does not look troubled. She should be, she had a sentence of death by hanging upheld by an appeals court. She was found in possession of almost 2 1/2 pounds of meth, while traveling through Kuala Lampur, Malaysia. I think that she will be hung eventually, and it will wipe that smile right off of her face.

The reason that I bring it up, is that America will be forced to execute major drug traffickers, before its over with.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...her-to-death-by-hanging/ar-AAxJ3xl?li=BBnbfcL


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

I voted no. I am all for justice and punishment, but taking a life should require something more than 2# of meth. What I do think we need in the US is serious prison reform. Not make believe progressive prison reform but real productive prison reform. Think super max with smooth jazz playing all day long, not adult daycare centers with internet, gyms, free education, and cuddle time with large marge.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

I would also say no for a first offense of this type. Severe corporal punishment such as caning, and some time in the big house, yes.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

patrioteer said:


> I voted no. I am all for justice and punishment, but taking a life should require something more than 2# of meth. What I do think we need in the US is serious prison reform. Not make believe progressive prison reform but real productive prison reform. Think super max with smooth jazz playing all day long, not adult daycare centers with internet, gyms, free education, and cuddle time with large marge.


OK, thanks for the vote. I want to say, that American prisons are not the soft spots that people think they are, they are pretty hard corps.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

RedLion said:


> I would also say no for a first offense of this type. Severe corporal punishment such as caning, and some time in the big house, yes.


OK, thanks for the vote. I will add, that she must have known, that Malaysia had a death penalty for drug offenses.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Ok. What should be done with the illegal Mexicans caught earlier this week in North Carolina driving a semi that had one fuel tank filled with 120 GALLONS of liquid methamphetamine? 
Slap them on the wrist and send them back to Mexico?
Perhaps put them on the city council of a sanctuary city?


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

MisterMills357 said:


> OK, thanks for the vote. I will add, that she must have known, that Malaysia had a death penalty for drug offenses.


I get that Malaysia does not screw around and has very stiff penalities/punishments, but I do not think that the woman deserves to die for the offense at hand.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

NO

Butt don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

If ya gots 120 gallons of liquid meth, you see Judge Dredd


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

patrioteer said:


> I voted no. I am all for justice and punishment, but taking a life should require something more than 2# of meth. What I do think we need in the US is serious prison reform. Not make believe progressive prison reform but real productive prison reform. Think super max with smooth jazz playing all day long, not adult daycare centers with internet, gyms, free education, and cuddle time with large marge.


2 and a half pounds of meth can Euck a lot of people up. How many people would die on average? 
In the US about 2700+ die every year. 82,000 people suffer and overdose and require hospitalization.
I'm all in favor of the death penalty for selling drugs. * Even tho my son is probably one of them.*


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## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Ok. What should be done with the illegal Mexicans caught earlier this week in North Carolina driving a semi that had one fuel tank filled with 120 GALLONS of liquid methamphetamine?
> Slap them on the wrist and send them back to Mexico?
> Perhaps put them on the city council of a sanctuary city?


Read about this the other day and was astonished at the street value! Was thinking tanker truck and was shocked to see the 120 gallon fuel tank.

Wonder what clued police to search the fuel tank in the first place? I'm thinking liquid meth must have a very distinct smell...


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

People who deal in drugs, deal in death. They know the penalty of the country they're in, or should. There's a reason they call it dope.

I don't feel a bit sorry for her and yes, I do believe there ought to be a whole lot more death penalties doled out here than there are, including dope dealing.


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

MisterMills357 said:


> OK, thanks for the vote. I want to say, that American prisons are not the soft spots that people think they are, they are pretty hard corps.


I am a police officer who spent about 15 years working part time doing prison transports for the county. I have been in 100's of jails and prisons from Indiana to Idaho and North Dakota to Oklahoma. Private, state, and federal. While there were a few that were hardcore scary places, the vast majority were like college dormitories with fences. A few didn't even have fences. Some were much nicer than college dormitories. The only one I went to that I thought was just the way a prison was supposed to be was the florence federal correction complex in Colorado.


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

paraquack said:


> 2 and a half pounds of meth can Euck a lot of people up. How many people would die on average?
> In the US about 2700+ die every year. 82,000 people suffer and overdose and require hospitalization.
> I'm all in favor of the death penalty for selling drugs. * Even tho my son is probably one of them.*


I see the effects of meth every day, meth is a nightmare. At the same time I don't think any meth users is being held down and forced to use it. If they choose to die from it then that is on them. Free will is free will. Lots of people die from alcohol too but I don't see us arresting the local bartender or executing the manager of the liquor store. If someone walks into McDonald's and kills 10 innocent people, put him in front of a firing squad and end his miserable life. But if those 10 people all asked to be shot of their own accord, then that's a different story in my book.

I have always said the answer lies in secretly adding something to the meth that causes sterility. Then maybe after a few generations the problem will solve itself.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I have to say I'm torn on this. But in the end I believe this one principle.... What good does it do the Country...Theirs or Ours.... to have penalties and then just make exceptions because of who commits the crime?

If it were a 20 something guy would you feel the same? This Grandmother actually has lived a little and should understand more than a 20 year old.

penalties do not deter the crime if they are instituted under conditions of sex, age, appearance. Only more people fitting the description of the leniency will be coaxed into commission of the crime and your problem remains.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

patrioteer said:


> I am a police officer who spent about 15 years working part time doing prison transports for the county. I have been in 100's of jails and prisons from Indiana to Idaho and North Dakota to Oklahoma. Private, state, and federal. While there were a few that were hardcore scary places, the vast majority were like college dormitories with fences. A few didn't even have fences. Some were much nicer than college dormitories. The only one I went to that I thought was just the way a prison was supposed to be was the florence federal correction complex in Colorado.


Thanks for your service. My mother died in prison while serving a mandatory minimum 10 year sentence. She was a Grand mother and made a bad decision. It was her first offense. I hold no ill will towards the system that imprisoned her, I just wish it were equally applied across the system.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Boss Dog said:


> People who deal in drugs, deal in death. They know the penalty of the country they're in, or should. There's a reason they call it dope.
> 
> I don't feel a bit sorry for her and yes, I do believe there ought to be a whole lot more death penalties doled out here than there are, including dope dealing.


I get what you are saying and agree for the most about drug dealers dealing in death. With that said, alcohol kills many more people every day than drugs do.


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

RedLion said:


> I get what you are saying and agree for the most about drug dealers dealing in death. With that said, alcohol kills many more people every day than drugs do.


agreed. 
Alcohol is also a drug and should be illegal as well but, the govt makes way too much tax money and is not willing to give that up.


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

Old SF Guy said:


> Thanks for your service. My mother died in prison while serving a mandatory minimum 10 year sentence. She was a Grand mother and made a bad decision. It was her first offense. I hold no ill will towards the system that imprisoned her, I just wish it were equally applied across the system.


Sorry to hear that. The only thing I hate more than mandatory sentences are judges who can't be objective. The two cornerstones of the criminal justice system need to be fairness and equality. Unfortunately since that system is influenced by politics, that's nearly impossible.

On a different note, If someone starts a poll about executing rapists and child molesters I will change my vote to yes. I will even pull the lever, flip the switch, or fire the shot.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

RedLion said:


> I get what you are saying and agree for the most about drug dealers dealing in death. With that said, alcohol kills many more people every day than drugs do.


RedLion, I guess the issue for me is not the drug of choice, which is deemed ok or not. The issue is laws on the books and enforcement. Being a parent...I know that if I let one child get away with doing something wrong, it encourages similar behavior from the other. Society is really not much different.

If you enact conditional penalty enforcement, you will get more of the conditional criminal actions. The issue you raise is valid, just a different question altogether. The question is not..What else should be controlled by laws....it really is, are you serious about controlling what already is?

As mentioned, my own mother made a decision based on a belief that they would never sentence a Grand mother, first time offender, to a lengthy prison term. She got that idea from people who didn't get the sentence due to leniency because of social condition or race.

I believe she would have made a different decision had she known in her heart that she will get 10 years...or the death penalty for the first offense, regardless of who she was.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> RedLion, I guess the issue for me is not the drug of choice, which is deemed ok or not. The issue is laws on the books and enforcement. Being a parent...I know that if I let one child get away with doing something wrong, it encourages similar behavior from the other. Society is really not much different.
> 
> If you enact conditional penalty enforcement, you will get more of the conditional criminal actions. The issue you raise is valid, just a different question altogether. The question is not..What else should be controlled by laws....it really is, are you serious about controlling what already is?
> 
> ...


I get it and do not necessarily disagree. I just think that most people would learn and not commit the same crime after a severe caning and time in prison. I am saying this for the first offense and if no other crimes were commited.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

RedLion said:


> I get it and do not necessarily disagree. I just think that most people would learn and not commit the same crime after a severe caning and time in prison. I am saying this for the first offense and if no other crimes were commited.


RedLion, I wish that were so, Maybe if they changed the law to say... First offense we are gonna beat you half to death...second offense we are gonna complete the job. it would deter them.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

How many people have died from the Meth. Way to many no different than if she shot them. Big part of the problem here we don't enforce laws. thwy commit many seious crimes before they do time and many murders get out and do it again. We would not be in this mess if we enforced thw law


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

paraquack said:


> 2 and a half pounds of meth can Euck a lot of people up. How many people would die on average?
> In the US about 2700+ die every year. 82,000 people suffer and overdose and require hospitalization.
> I'm all in favor of the death penalty for selling drugs. * Even tho my son is probably one of them.*


I'm thinking either dealers get the death sentence or else legalize drugs. Whatever it takes to make it not profitable to the drug dealers. Prayers for your son. Keep praying and don't give up hope.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

MikeTango said:


> Read about this the other day and was astonished at the street value! Was thinking tanker truck and was shocked to see the 120 gallon fuel tank.
> 
> Wonder what clued police to search the fuel tank in the first place? I'm thinking liquid meth must have a very distinct smell...


It could have been something as simple as DOT at a weigh station checking the tanks for off road diesel. There are two grades, low sulfur which is mandated by law for highway vehicles; and a lower grade with impurities which is used in farm tractors and is much cheaper per gallon. The off-road is dyed red so it is easy to check.

As for smell, I believe I have smelled it being "cooked" out here in the boonies where we live. This seems to happen a lot in rural areas.
It stopped after 5 or 6 sheriffs department vehicles went down around the bend one afternoon. And then came back out a few hours later. (We live not far off the pavement on a dead end dirt road. Anything going in or out goes by our place)


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## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

rice paddy daddy said:


> It could have been something as simple as DOT at a weigh station checking the tanks for off road diesel. There are two grades, low sulfur which is mandated by law for highway vehicles; and a lower grade with impurities which is used in farm tractors and is much cheaper per gallon. The off-road is dyed red so it is easy to check.
> 
> As for smell, I believe I have smelled it being "cooked" out here in the boonies where we live. This seems to happen a lot in rural areas.
> It stopped after 5 or 6 sheriffs department vehicles went down around the bend one afternoon. And then came back out a few hours later. (We live not far off the pavement on a dead end dirt road. Anything going in or out goes by our place)


The only thing we smell way out here, and it's only on rare occasion, are the chicken houses about two miles down the road. Since living here I've learned several locals have done time for cooking meth.

This past Christmas Santa brought me a new John Deere tractor. Because of this tractor I discovered Green Tractor Talk and Tapatalk. Using Tapatalk is how I found this fine group of folks on PF.

Anyway, I learned a few things about diesel fuel on GTT. Several of the fellas over there work for fuel distributors. If I remember correctly all diesel produced for the last year or two (maybe longer, I can't remember) is "Ultra Low Sulfur". There is only one grade. The only difference is the red dye added to "off road diesel" for tax purposes. Some distributors add the dye themselves. There are seasonal blends of diesel if you live in areas where it actually gets cold in the winter. The distributor where I buy fuel doesn't offer a blended diesel in winter so I add my own anti gel additives just to be safe. Most of this was news to me as I've never owned a tractor until now.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Since Tyson closed down their processing plant in Jacksonville about a decade ago there are no more large chicken farmers around. Although back in the day there was one on the property behind us, and one down our road.
The average Tyson contract farmer had three or more barns with 50,000 birds in each barn.

Now, it's just the 50 hens and roo's in our back yard.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

If they hang her it’s their choice not ours or our government it’s their decision if that is how they best feel they can protect their people from meth more power to them.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

I really seems that all our illegal drugs and drug use started when "they" made it illegal...

You probably don't want to hear what my solution is.

*Rancher*


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

azrancher said:


> I really seems that all our illegal drugs and drug use started when "they" made it illegal...
> 
> You probably don't want to hear what my solution is.
> 
> *Rancher*


If your solution is to legalize it, then I'm with you. Jail time me, fines or even death penalty never stopped drug traffickers. Asian countries have been executing people for drugs for a long time and still has not stopped drug dealers.

People who likes drugs will always do drugs. There is no way of stopping them. But if you take away profits from the dealers, only then will they go away. If you legalize drugs, drug related violent crimes will go away.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

6811 said:


> If your solution is to legalize it, then I'm with you. Jail time me, fines or even death penalty never stopped drug traffickers. Asian countries have been executing people for drugs for a long time and still has not stopped drug dealers.
> 
> People who likes drugs will always do drugs. There is no way of stopping them. But if you take away profits from the dealers, only then will they go away. If you legalize drugs, drug related violent crimes will go away.


I agree. If you legalize drug use, you will take away the profits and drug dealers will disappear. And people who use will always use. This nonsense of "drug rehab" is a money making scam for the folks that operate these clinics. Only a tiny percentage (1%) of people that use street opiates ever kick the habit. So I vote legalize, with one additional condition. No taxpayer funded public assistance (not one penny) for people using nonprescription drugs to get high. If you want to get high, fine. But not on my dime. You can starve, freeze, or die from some street infection if you so choose. But right now we are subsidizing these fools with public assistance while they beg and steal every penny they can for drugs to feed their high.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I voted yes. It's their country and their laws. As Baretta used to say: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

Do I agree with the law? No. I don't believe the penalty fits this particular crime. But, it is the law and it should be applied equally and fairly across the board. In this world of elitist politics, a hard thing to accomplish.


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

There is no simple answer. Decriminalizing drugs sounds good and it solves some problems, but it also creates a whole bunch more. The friends I have who work law enforcement in colorado will tell you that instead of arresting people for marijuana possession and use, now they arrest even more people for theft, burglary, breaking & entering, and vandalism. Because legal marijuana costs a lot more than illegal marijuana did. They also say that there are a lot more traffic accidents and even traffic fatalities, as well as disorderly conducts and things of that nature. Plus businesses are having a lot harder time finding competent young people for unskilled positions because everyone seems half baked, doesn't show up for work, and so on. Tax revenues are way up and a few problems went away, but they don't think the trade off was worth it. Not even close. Now some counties are opting out of the legalization laws so those who consume will move out of their communities and reduce the burden on the criminal justice system. I can't even imagine what it would look like if meth was legal. We would definitely need to hire more police and more coroners.

Marijuana is not really a problem if you don't smoke it and your brain has finished developing, but it is if you're a teenager and it hasn't. Meth is problem for everyone.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Why does any one think that if drugs were legalized they would somehow become very inexpensive? Will it become cheaper to move heroin from Afghanistan through countries where drug traffickers are executed? Or crystal meth from China? Will the Mexican drug cartels suddenly take a big price cut?

And even if the price was cut 50% or 75% the addicts would still have to raise the money to stay high. And how do you think they would do that? Same way they are now - burglary, robbery, prostitution. It won't come from working a regular job.

Don't think for one moment that illicit drug use is a "victimless crime." Ask the families of the addicts. Ask the man who had all his tools stolen while he was at work.

I have first hand experience with druggies. Out here in small town America there are no Narcotics Anonymous meetings, so the judicial system sends the probation people, parloees, and those just out of detox to Alcoholics Anonymous. These people don't want help, they just want their paper signed so their PO is happy. Trust me on this - these are the people you would not want anywhere near your house or your loved ones.

Yeah, drug use hits me hard. Unlike probably the majority on this board (with the exception of the LEO's) I have had, and continue to have, first hand dealings with these people.
I will help any of them that really WANTS help. But only about 1% does.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

patrioteer said:


> There is no simple answer. Decriminalizing drugs sounds good and it solves some problems, but it also creates a whole bunch more. The friends I have who work law enforcement in colorado will tell you that instead of arresting people for marijuana possession and use, now they arrest even more people for theft, burglary, breaking & entering, and vandalism. Because legal marijuana costs a lot more than illegal marijuana did. They also say that there are a lot more traffic accidents and even traffic fatalities, as well as disorderly conducts and things of that nature. Plus businesses are having a lot harder time finding competent young people for unskilled positions because everyone seems half baked, doesn't show up for work, and so on. Tax revenues are way up and a few problems went away, but they don't think the trade off was worth it. Not even close. Now some counties are opting out of the legalization laws so those who consume will move out of their communities and reduce the burden on the criminal justice system. I can't even imagine what it would look like if meth was legal. We would definitely need to hire more police and more coroners.
> 
> Marijuana is not really a problem if you don't smoke it and your brain has finished developing, but it is if you're a teenager and it hasn't. Meth is problem for everyone.


We were both typing at the same time.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

patrioteer said:


> I voted no. I am all for justice and punishment, but taking a life should require something more than 2# of meth. What I do think we need in the US is serious prison reform. Not make believe progressive prison reform but real productive prison reform. Think super max with smooth jazz playing all day long, not adult daycare centers with internet, gyms, free education, and cuddle time with large marge.


Wonder why we have a drug problem? The war on drugs has been around about as long as I am old. We have poured billions if not trillions in to stoping the flow and yet it's more abundant, more potent and more available than ever. Clearly what we are doing in this country is not working. That leaves two distasteful options: legalization or death penalty. Either way the users die off in a few years making the problem smaller.


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

Camel923 said:


> Wonder why we have a drug problem? The war on drugs has been around about as long as I am old. We have poured billions if not trillions in to stoping the flow and yet it's more aboundant, more potent and more available than ever. Clearly what we are doing in this country is not working. That leaves two distasteful options: legalization or death penalty. Either way the users die off in a few years making the problem smaller.


We have a drug problem for the same reason why have an alcohol problem. People want to feel good and they don't want to deal with life or the problems life often brings. This has been going on since the dawn of man.

There are way more than two options left. We can start by stopping all the policies that have failed and continue to fail, like mandatory sentences and letting all the small and medium fish go to always try to get to the big fish. We can also get rid of DARE in schools which has been proven to intrigue more kids than dissuade. We can develop a hard and scary program that actually deters kids from the life of drugs and crime. We can start drug testing anyone and everyone who receives government assistance of any kind. No pee, no ebt. That one alone would drop drug use. We can permanently take away government assistance from anyone with a felony drug conviction. We can stop making better criminals inside a prison system designed to do so. We can secure our borders so we are not just on open thoroughfare for anyone who wants to come in and bring drugs with them. We can tell the CIA to get out of the drug trade, or better yet close them down. We can come up with programs that actually help those who are addicted break free from it. We can provide more training to police on how to combat drugs and provide them with the resources they need to actually do so. We can stop the pharmaceutical companies and doctors from getting people addicted to prescriptions who then turn to illegal drugs. We could even go back to the old days of opium dens and provide a big old building lined with military cots where addicts can go get high and lay there all day. There are lots of options out there but few people willing to explore them or make them happen.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

patrioteer said:


> We have a drug problem for the same reason why have an alcohol problem. People want to feel good and they don't want to deal with life or the problems life often brings. This has been going on since the dawn of man.
> 
> There are way more than two options left. We can start by stopping all the policies that have failed and continue to fail, like mandatory sentences and letting all the small and medium fish go to always try to get to the big fish. We can also get rid of DARE in schools which has been proven to intrigue more kids than dissuade. We can develop a hard and scary program that actually deters kids from the life of drugs and crime. We can start drug testing anyone and everyone who receives government assistance of any kind. No pee, no ebt. That one alone would drop drug use. We can permanently take away government assistance from anyone with a felony drug conviction. We can stop making better criminals inside a prison system designed to do so. We can secure our borders so we are not just on open thoroughfare for anyone who wants to come in and bring drugs with them. We can tell the CIA to get out of the drug trade, or better yet close them down. We can come up with programs that actually help those who are addicted break free from it. We can provide more training to police on how to combat drugs and provide them with the resources they need to actually do so. We can stop the pharmaceutical companies and doctors from getting people addicted to prescriptions who then turn to illegal drugs. We could even go back to the old days of opium dens and provide a big old building lined with military cots where addicts can go get high and lay there all day. There are lots of options out there but few people willing to explore them or make them happen.


Rehab has a 90 percent failure rate. It's a waste of resources. Ineffective. More of what has not worked is a tenant of socialism. I disagree with your wishful, hopeful assessment. I do think that wishful agenda is what the course will be thus denying reality and prolonging and worsening the crisis. I got a hundred that says it will fail. You pick the period of time because no matter how long, it will fail.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

patrioteer said:


> We have a drug problem for the same reason why have an alcohol problem. People want to feel good and they don't want to deal with life or the problems life often brings. This has been going on since the dawn of man.
> 
> There are way more than two options left. We can start by stopping all the policies that have failed and continue to fail, like mandatory sentences and letting all the small and medium fish go to always try to get to the big fish. We can also get rid of DARE in schools which has been proven to intrigue more kids than dissuade. We can develop a hard and scary program that actually deters kids from the life of drugs and crime. We can start drug testing anyone and everyone who receives government assistance of any kind. No pee, no ebt. That one alone would drop drug use. We can permanently take away government assistance from anyone with a felony drug conviction. We can stop making better criminals inside a prison system designed to do so. We can secure our borders so we are not just on open thoroughfare for anyone who wants to come in and bring drugs with them. We can tell the CIA to get out of the drug trade, or better yet close them down. We can come up with programs that actually help those who are addicted break free from it. We can provide more training to police on how to combat drugs and provide them with the resources they need to actually do so. We can stop the pharmaceutical companies and doctors from getting people addicted to prescriptions who then turn to illegal drugs. We could even go back to the old days of opium dens and provide a big old building lined with military cots where addicts can go get high and lay there all day. There are lots of options out there but few people willing to explore them or make them happen.


I always liked the "Scared Straight" programs. I don't know the numbers or even if they still have those programs. If your a teen going down the wrong path, a night in jail with the population can open eyes. Then again, there are the ones who never will get it.


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

Camel923 said:


> Rehab has a 90 percent failure rate. It's a waste of resources. Ineffective. More of what has not worked is a tenant of socialism. I disagree with you wishful, hopeful assessment. I do think that wishful agenda is what the course will be thus denying reality and prolonging and worsening the crisis. I got a hundred that says it will fail. You pick the period of time because no matter how long, it will fail.


Hence me typing that we need to come up with programs that actually work. And I guarantee you they are already out there but are not being used because they don't have the funding or because someone things they are mean or racist or too hard or whatever other excuses people make.

There was nothing wishful or hopeful in there. Just common sense. You don't attack the problem from one direction and call it good, you attack it from 20 directions and you do so relentlessly. If the only tool you have in your toolbox is a hammer than every problem is a nail. But this problem is way bigger than just a nail and we will need a whole lot of tools to solve it. Of course most people don't actually want to be part of the solution, they want someone else to do it or they just want to complain about it.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

patrioteer said:


> Hence me typing that we need to come up with programs that actually work. And I guarantee you they are already out there but are not being used because they don't have the funding or because someone things they are mean or racist or too hard or whatever other excuses people make.
> 
> There was nothing wishful or hopeful in there. Just common sense. You don't attack the problem from one direction and call it good, you attack it from 20 directions and you do so relentlessly. If the only tool you have in your toolbox is a hammer than every problem is a nail. But this problem is way bigger than just a nail and we will need a whole lot of tools to solve it. Of course most people don't actually want to be part of the solution, they want someone else to do it or they just want to complain about it.


How long and how much more treasure to spend on this? What will actually be effective? 50 years plus in and no way you can say the tide was stemmed let alone winning. We are actually loosing. New twists on old ideas are not going to cut it. JMHO. The death penalty might do it but no way Americans consent to that. Legalization is not such a great idea either. I would have users have an electronic implant so they can go to the local government distributor and get their fix. Find them unconscious and a scan reveals the chip..well no narcan for you. In about three years the problem will not be as bad as it is now.


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## patrioteer (May 21, 2018)

Camel923 said:


> How long and how much more treasure to spend on this? What will actually be effective? 50 years plus in and no way you can say the tide was stemmed let alone winning. We are actually loosing. New twists on old ideas are not going to cut it. JMHO. The death penalty might do it but no way Americans consent to that. Legalization is not such a great idea either. I would have users have an electronic implant so they can go to the local government distributor and get their fix. Find them unconscious and a scan reveals the chip..well no narcan for you. In about three years the problem will not be as bad as it is now.


Doing things that actually help, even if they are expensive today, will save massive amounts of money in the long run. In the last 50 years no one has done a thing to actually try and solve the problem. It's all been hot air and security theater. Any plan we come up with is better than the current non-plan, which is to pretty much do nothing but arrest people and try to convict them. Again, close the borders so drugs don't come in and the cash doesn't go out, make sure government dependents who do drugs don't get money, confiscate the cash and use it against the drug trade, when the outside sources dry up start seriously targeting domestic drug manufacturers, and so on. Couple years of actually taking on the issue instead of pussy footing around it and things will improve.

Unless you start sterilizing people future drug dealers and drug users are born every single day. The population is not shrinking.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Ok. What should be done with the illegal Mexicans caught earlier this week in North Carolina driving a semi that had one fuel tank filled with 120 GALLONS of liquid methamphetamine?
> Slap them on the wrist and send them back to Mexico?
> Perhaps put them on the city council of a sanctuary city?


My personal opinion is, hang them after a fair and speedy trial. And it is things like that, which will lead the general public towards the death penalty, for egregious crimes like that. Between drug dealers and terrorism, and their crimes, the demand for executions will go up. That is my prediction anyway.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Probably one his pals dropped the dime. Friends are always the weak link on big old illegal deals. Son of a pals pal got nabbedwith 19 pot plants in his garage. Buddy ratted him out to crime stoppers for a thousand bucks. They took him...his wife..his guns..cars..computers etc. It was not nice.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

So it seems no madder what the law , if enough of us disagree with anything goes. Don't madder how many die


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Chiefster23 said:


> I agree. If you legalize drug use, you will take away the profits and drug dealers will disappear. And people who use will always use. This nonsense of "drug rehab" is a money making scam for the folks that operate these clinics. Only a tiny percentage (1%) of people that use street opiates ever kick the habit. So I vote legalize, with one additional condition. No taxpayer funded public assistance (not one penny) for people using nonprescription drugs to get high. If you want to get high, fine. But not on my dime. You can starve, freeze, or die from some street infection if you so choose. But right now we are subsidizing these fools with public assistance while they beg and steal every penny they can for drugs to feed their high.


I agree... No Govt funding or assistance for the druggies. Make it legal, but no funding from the taxpayers. Nobody funds me when I have the urge to smoke cigarettes and drink beer. I pay for it.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Chiefster23 said:


> I agree. If you legalize drug use, you will take away the profits and drug dealers will disappear. And people who use will always use. This nonsense of "drug rehab" is a money making scam for the folks that operate these clinics. Only a tiny percentage (1%) of people that use street opiates ever kick the habit. So I vote legalize, with one additional condition. No taxpayer funded public assistance (not one penny) for people using nonprescription drugs to get high. If you want to get high, fine. But not on my dime. You can starve, freeze, or die from some street infection if you so choose. But right now we are subsidizing these fools with public assistance while they beg and steal every penny they can for drugs to feed their high.


I do not use nor do I advocate the use of most drugs, although I do use the drug alcohol in a limited manner. I use it, like most people, to alter my consciousness or "get high" like any other drug user... does that make me a scumbag like a glue sniffer or an opiate user? We compartmentalize our feelings about these things, don't we, to maintain positions that won't stand up to close scrutiny. We have been socialized to view one drug one way, others another. Yes, even cops (cops for whom I have undying respect regardless) who are always eager to regale us with anecdotal proof positive of that position. Yet they have NOT yet policed a world where drugs have been completely legalized. "Oh, well, if only you saw the carnage to families that I see". Really? Never seen carnage to families due to ALCOHOL? Why is one OK and continually tolerated but the other so despicable it has to be stopped by any means? At any expense?

How often does an alcoholic commit felonies to buy/steal alcohol? It's a dangerously addictive drug. It can severely affect a user's judgment in a negative fashion. Yet, most alcohol (not ALL, MOST) related arrests are for brawling/domestic abuse and DUI. Why is this? Because it is cheap, legal, and therefore easy to obtain. Many drug user "scumbags" on the other hand, are arrested merely for purchasing or providing their chosen product... and this represents a HUGE percentage of drug arrests overall. Not violence. Not robbery. Mere obtaining. Alcohol users can walk into a store and purchase without fear, and the store owner does not have to conceal his product... which is why our jails are stuffed with drug users/sellers and not (the drug) alcohol users/sellers.

Anyone have a constitutional problem with "the war on drugs" or all the legislature from the Harris Act forward? How far back have we allowed our government to dictate laws to free citizens... without our say so? Do we support actual FREEDOM, or do we acquiesce to the "nanny state"? We already HAVE laws which criminalize giving intoxicants to minors and driving under the influence. I don't care what kind of gun you have, unless you are committing a crime with it. This is because I am a free man, and recognize you as one as well. Ditto for drug use. Do as you will, recognizing that your right to swing you arm ends at my nose. We will NOT, in a free country, illegalize the swinging of arms... only the negligent swinging of arms. JUST LIKE GUNS. We won't be collecting your arms because of what you MIGHT do!

My God, the inestimable time and resources wasted for so many decades in an ill-conceived and misbegotten "war" on drugs! The excessive tax dollars spent to incarcerate a single drug felon is a crime against the people all by itself. Court costs. Provided attorney. Guards. Entire agencies. Personnel. Administrative costs. Prisons. Food. Appeals. Health care. You could keep counting $$$ almost forever.

The 4th amendment violations, incrementally implemented... all justified to stop drugs! Random traffic stops/inspections. Vehicle searches. Wall penetrating FLIR systems used on our homes.

Weed is legal now here in Oregon... pot stores everywhere. Guess what? The world didn't end after all. And YES, it is CHEAPER... DIRT CHEAP in fact. You can buy an ounce of high grade ganga anywhere from $50-$80... about 1/4 of it's pre-decriminalized price. Smuggling is EXPENSIVE. Selling illegal drugs is RISKY and therefore COSTLY. There are a great many steps between Columbia and your local street corner.

How about putting all those gangs and cartels OUT OF BUSINESS... anyone interested in that? No money for guns, for expensive rides with spinning wheels, no gold grills. They would go back to what they were in the 50's... a loose knit local gang of punks living in broken neighborhoods.
Because I can tell you all FIRST HAND how that will happen: No one will want to buy unknown quantity/quality of drugs on the street when it can be purchased for 90% less in a pharmacy... AND in a pure and completely consistent form. Far less overdoses when the amount you are working with is identical each time.

Speaking of... please don't talk to me about the number of overdoses yearly. If I were a heroin user, I might say "So, you're gonna put me in prison for 10-20 years to protect me from overdosing?! If you consider this HELP, please keep it to yourself next time".

"90%?!? NO WAY!!!".
Yes way.

I have worked inside a pharmacy for a short period. In a lockbox in the back of the store was 6 ounce bottle of pharmaceutical cocaine (for eye surgery). Completely pure, no adulterants. Worth about $80 wholesale. What would you imagine 6 OZs of pure coke would go for on the street? $2000 an ounce?
How about that all-time heavyweight champ opiates? $8 for an 80 MG tablet of Oxycontin at the pharmacy... or up to $80 on the street. Yes, up to TEN TIMES as much.

Here's the kicker: remember we talked about buying, using, and selling illegal drugs representing the bulk of arrests? Now let's reduce those OTHER arrests - breaking into houses, jocky boxing, robbery, muggings, purse snatchings - by 90% ALSO. Because if drugs are legal and can be purchased at the pharmacy for up to 90% LESS, then the crimes a junkie has to commit for those drugs can be reduced by the same fraction.
Again, I do not advocate the use of drugs. I advocate true freedom and NO nanny state.
And actually less crime as a result.

Flame on if you must, but I am just sick of it all... pretending that this is working, ignoring decades of abject failure, sick of politicians posturing fruitlessly on this issue, and sick of paying for it all.

Re-reading this, I have realized that I have picked up a certain bad habit from someone here on the forum... utilizing WAY too many CAPITAL LETTERS LOL!!! I'm going to knock that off now.


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

That's THEIR law.no amount of voting,polls,or anything will change it.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

MI.oldguy said:


> That's THEIR law.no amount of voting,polls,or anything will change it.


No one wanted to change it, and I put the poll up to ask a question, and to gauge feelings on this. And that is what I got for the most part.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

MisterMills357 said:


> No one wanted to change it, and I put the poll up to ask a question, and to gauge feelings on this. And that is what I got for the most part.


 I voted yes - and don't care to explain why.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

MountainGirl said:


> I voted yes - and don't care to explain why.


OK, and that is as valid an answer, as anyone else's. No one needs to explain their answer if they don't want to. It can be an emotional roller coaster, when it comes to the death penalty.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I guess, just to weigh into the fray, is that we have a problem defining the problem...

The problem is not what the drugs do to the people who use them...That is a ramification of use...not a problem...What is a problem is peoples belief that we should protect people from their bad decisions.

I am not a believer in legalization...because to legalize it is to condone it. They should just decriminalize using it, with the caveat that under no circumstance is the government going to pay for treatment for using it, even to get off of it. Nor will any government benefits be allowed to anyone who uses.

Let people die, let people see how those people died, let people know that we won't help them live longer. This will disincentives younger people from turning to drugs.

with the money saved, address the issues that are causing people to seek out drugs. more camps for kids, where they learn valuable skill and have fun. More after school programs....maybe helping pick up dead bodies of drug addicts for first time drug users. Maybe a trip down crack alley as a class to show the jocks where they will be and the cheerleaders were they will work if they choose drugs...

In the end we change what we are saying to...if you don't care about your life, neither will we. and if you commit other crimes we will throw your ass in a whole with as much meth as you want to buy...but no medical and a DNR tag, 

The problem with drugs is we keep trying to control what is an individuals decision by creating a law.

But do not allow it to be sold in stores, cause then stores will be sued for what comes from there products.


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## KUSA (Apr 21, 2016)

First of all, I am not in favor of using drugs.

But, I don’t believe the government should be in the business of protecting me from myself.

All drugs should be legal for adults. If they choose to use them and die then that’s on them. The profitability of drug trafficking would be undermined by legalization.

As for illegal aliens transporting anything in this country, they should be put in a tent prison in Arizona for 10 years then dropped off in their country of origin. If they come back in, they should have the American flag tattooed on their face and then be dropped off in the Middle East.


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## Gunn (Jan 1, 2016)

Hang her and beat her like a piñata.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> I guess, just to weigh into the fray, is that we have a problem defining the problem...
> 
> The problem is not what the drugs do to the people who use them...That is a ramification of use...not a problem...What is a problem is peoples belief that we should protect people from their bad decisions.
> 
> I am not a believer in legalization...because to legalize it is to condone it. They should just decriminalize using it, with the caveat that under no circumstance is the government going to pay for treatment for using it, even to get off of it. Nor will any government benefits be allowed to anyone who uses.


Drugs like meth are evil by nature, that is, there is an evil in using it, and it can never be made good, certainly not by decriminalization. Heroin was legal in the USA in the 1890's, and Coca Cola famously had cocaine in it, as an ingredient. 
The drugs themselves are bad, and they cause bad things to come about. When was the last time that you heard that methamphetamine did something good?

Versus, how many times have you heard it associated with evil things? I typed in a search term---meth, I cooked my baby--and I got a news report similar to that. A babysitter, tried to cook a baby in a microwave, while she was on crystal meth. That says so much about the drug, that it is needless to yammer on about it. Legalization of meth would be a nightmare.

http://The 3-month-old child was fo...pital where doctors do not fear for his life.

A bottle of Bayer heroin, circa 1890, sold over the counter. There aren't any many uses for heroin, or meth, or cocaine; and it is always used to get as high as a kite by the users. I believe that it caused society wide problems, and it is a good thing that it was criminalized.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

The idea that drugs are a victimless crime is a cop out and a myth. At every level there are victims. And even when you make them so called legal there are huge cost to society.
Not working as planned in the state allow all the pot.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

We have gotten to the point in this country that fire/rescue vehicles carry Narcan, and so do a majority of police departments.
When they revive the same addict from his 5th, or 10th overdose, the law of diminishing returns begins to apply.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> We have gotten to the point in this country that fire/rescue vehicles carry Narcan, and so do a majority of police departments.
> When they revive the same addict from his 5th, or 10th overdose, the law of diminishing returns begins to apply.


Not to be the eternal pessimist or school master, but Narcan is de rigueur now, it is expected equipment. If the crews don't have the stuff, they are probably considered the wrongdoer, the one at fault. I hope that makes sense, because once deviant behavior is condoned, someone must tend to the deviants. Things have gotten flipped on their head; thus the poor, poor heroin addict becomes the victim.

[PS: I have seen things like that, happen right before my eyes, the wrongdoer is sanctified.]


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

MisterMills357 said:


> Drugs like meth are evil by nature, that is, there is an evil in using it, and it can never be made good, certainly not by decriminalization. Heroin was legal in the USA in the 1890's, and Coca Cola famously had cocaine in it, as an ingredient.
> The drugs themselves are bad, and they cause bad things to come about. When was the last time that you heard that methamphetamine did something good?
> 
> Versus, how many times have you heard it associated with evil things? I typed in a search term---meth, I cooked my baby--and I got a news report similar to that. A babysitter, tried to cook a baby in a microwave, while she was on crystal meth. That says so much about the drug, that it is needless to yammer on about it. Legalization of meth would be a nightmare.
> ...


Your blaming an inanimate substance for the behavior of the person. I see no good or bad in stuff that grows on this planet, theres stuff thats good for you and bad for you. It is the person who should be held to account and not propped up in any way.

Yes it's extremely terrible for a baby sitter to microwave the child. I blame the baby sitter and the parents who let a meth head baby sit their child. To blame a drug is useless. The drug didn't make itself, the drug didn't just appear in that persons system. They knowingly took it and did evil.

Thats why I say don't legalize it, as that condones it to a degree. But you also have to punish bad decision making by not allowing those who will use it to suckle off the tit of society. You cast them out to live or die and you don't hire them to baby sit little Johnny.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> Your blaming an inanimate substance for the behavior of the person. I see no good or bad in stuff that grows on this planet, theres stuff thats good for you and bad for you. It is the person who should be held to account and not propped up in any way.
> 
> Yes it's extremely terrible for a baby sitter to microwave the child. I blame the baby sitter and the parents who let a meth head baby sit their child. To blame a drug is useless. The drug didn't make itself, the drug didn't just appear in that persons system. They knowingly took it and did evil.
> 
> Thats why I say don't legalize it, as that condones it to a degree. But you also have to punish bad decision making by not allowing those who will use it to suckle off the tit of society. *You cast them out to live or die and you don't hire them to baby sit little Johnny.*


That is bogus, and it sounds Libertarian. There is intrinsic evil bound up in meth, heroin, coke, and any other hard drug. It is in the drug, I can know that by taking note of what the addict does. And it is the drug that caused it usually, and it is always evil. If that sounds simple minded, it is not. As I sit here, I can make a projection, that you condone the legalization of drugs. If I am mistaken, whoops.


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## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

MisterMills357 said:


> That is bogus, and it sounds Libertarian. There is intrinsic evil bound up in meth, heroin, coke, and any other hard drug. It is in the drug, I can know that by taking note of what the addict does. And it is the drug that caused it usually, and it is always evil. If that sounds simple minded, it is not. As I sit here, I can make a projection, that you condone the legalization of drugs. If I am mistaken, whoops.


Nah, the drug isn't evil. It simply brings out the best in people 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

MisterMills357 said:


> That is bogus, and it sounds Libertarian. There is intrinsic evil bound up in meth, heroin, coke, and any other hard drug. It is in the drug, I can know that by taking note of what the addict does. And it is the drug that caused it usually, and it is always evil. If that sounds simple minded, it is not. As I sit here, I can make a projection, that you condone the legalization of drugs. If I am mistaken, whoops.


It was the terrible Fire Water that made the Red Skins go on scalping sprees....Its the Meth that makes people cook their babies....Its the Opium that forces people to kill themselves... Its the KOT that made Somali Warlords kill there own people... its the gun that causes the criminal to commit crime.

I am dead set against Legalization. I say keep it illegal and tell them we we intend to put tainted drugs on the street that will sterilize everyone who uses it, that it will most likely kill you if you use it once. You will never get ANY government assistance, to include being put in jail where you get medical care and food nor any assistance to help get clean...Nothing!!!!...No no no...dear drug user.....You are on your own and god help you if you commit other crimes because we will execute you for it.

Any person knowing a drug user with children who fails to report it to child services gets charged with Child endangerment. You must have Hair follicle testing and show a clean history of drug use before you can get any state or federal funding for anything.

I hate drugs. and those who sell them and do them...But drugs by themselves are not a problem...its all the idiots taking the drugs I'd rather deal with firmly. Supply and demand....stop the demand first....not the supply.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> It was the terrible Fire Water that made the Red Skins go on scalping sprees....Its the Meth that makes people cook their babies....Its the Opium that forces people to kill themselves... Its the KOT that made Somali Warlords kill there own people... its the gun that causes the criminal to commit crime.
> 
> I am dead set against Legalization. I say keep it illegal and tell them we we intend to put tainted drugs on the street that will sterilize everyone who uses it, that it will most likely kill you if you use it once. You will never get ANY government assistance, to include being put in jail where you get medical care and food nor any assistance to help get clean...Nothing!!!!...No no no...dear drug user.....You are on your own and god help you if you commit other crimes because we will execute you for it.
> 
> ...


OK, we must respectfully disagree, and go on with things. I have said what I have to say and so have you; and I guess that to continue on, would be beating a dead horse.:tango_face_smile:


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