# Psychological Reasons (alleged) that soldiers would fire on US Citizens



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

The Psychological Reasons Why American Soldiers Would Fire On American Citizens | The Daily Sheeple

Not sure if I completely agree....does not seem to account for all the possibilities. But, there it was


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## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

You are so far in left field that you are beyond the parking lot.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

PalmettoTree said:


> You are so far in left field that you are beyond the parking lot.


Really?

Why not discuss the concept, rather than attack the member?


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## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

Reminds me of the Blue eyes Brown eyes experiment in the 70's.


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## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

Psychology the study of making excuses for bad behavior or poor decision making resulting avoidance of responsibility.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Well lets hope we never have that experience. I think brighter minds would quickly realize that firing on citizens in an effort to stop unrest from occurring may lead to greater unrest. 

The article mentioned Kent State, I think the closest we've been to that situation since then, was the stand off on the Bundy ranch in Nevada. Where BLM and Militia members squared up with each other.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

WACO,Randy Weaver


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

There will always be those that will kill. Out of being ordered to ,out of fear or just because they enjoy it. There will always be someone to do the killing.
People like Obama will stack the military with those that will do his bidding. He will remove those that will not. Look around that is just what he has been up to.
You can not use Kent state as an example things just got to out of hand with totally untrained National guard troops. Remember back then the guard and reserves were an all out joke.
Hitler and the SS used alterative life style people to do some of his worst killings. 
Randy Weaver was mentioned, they went there with one goal in mind to kill him, not arrest him they flat out planned to murder him.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Just look at the Nazi guards in the concentration camps or the secret police in the Soviet Union as two examples. Psychologically we are a diverse batch of oddball parts making decisions on right and wrong. If there is no enforcement of decency (Christian morals and ethics coupled with manners) break downs of established norms and transformations can be remarkably easy.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

AquaHull said:


> WACO,Randy Weaver


Yeah now that you mention it...


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Just read up on Waco, law endorsement and military are 2 completely different groups... 

If the question would Leo do it, there is no argument with this generation of leo...

(Watch good old cops, the TV show and watch the shift in policing additudes and how they handle themselves) 

Military, we need vets and current serving input?? Back in their day, would they do as told or would they enforse the constitution?? As studies like posted are too general, with shock treatment...


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

I cannot see why the power of group think would be any different with members of the military than it is in corporate America. That is why groups like ours here are so important. It offers each of us a checkpoint to see a situation from outside the group of folks we normally interact with.


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## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

If I was given the order to confiscate weapons or something similar I am sure I would be receiving a BCD. I will not operate against the constitution


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## Dalarast (May 16, 2014)

I think the one thing that is different with today is that most of us in the military have been deployed and have dealt with civil unrest on a vary harsh scale compared to what some people in American would consider "civil unrest". Having been through these experiences and having major ROE that must be followed and (from the lowest joe) knowing that a violation of ROE and the accidental shooting of a civilian in a foreign country would have GRAVE impact on the current mission and safety of the unit. 

Applying that knowledge to, if ordered, would American troops (if mobiblized against the U.S. citizens) fire upon civilians? I personally don't think so.... besides the above and the raised knowledge and awareness is also the fact that when Nasty Guard units train with for civil disturbance they are not utilizing weapons... just batons and shields. Do we have the capabilities of employing non-lethal rounds (if ever issued) or other non-lethal devices that would deter and persuade a civil disturbance.. yes. I think I may be biased of course in this; but I think the men and women I serve with now (and the ones prior) are probably less likely to follow an order that would even approach raising a deadly weapon at a group of civilians.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Jeep said:


> Reminds me of the Blue eyes Brown eyes experiment in the 70's.


That's a very interesting analogy  Especially since it is so simple, like the people they get to do it...

I never feel sure during these times why anything gets printed the way it does (remember that movie "The Warriors"?) But I always try to make some clarity between how I really think it is and people are vs whatever the particular opinion is. I'm leery. But, like that one person said, look just as much like a notice, permission slip for open season and Taunt all in one - or just a warning?


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Dalarast said:


> I think the one thing that is different with today is that most of us in the military have been deployed and have dealt with civil unrest on a vary harsh scale compared to what some people in American would consider "civil unrest". Having been through these experiences and having major ROE that must be followed and (from the lowest joe) knowing that a violation of ROE and the accidental shooting of a civilian in a foreign country would have GRAVE impact on the current mission and safety of the unit.
> 
> Applying that knowledge to, if ordered, would American troops (if mobiblized against the U.S. citizens) fire upon civilians? I personally don't think so.... besides the above and the raised knowledge and awareness is also the fact that when Nasty Guard units train with for civil disturbance they are not utilizing weapons... just batons and shields. Do we have the capabilities of employing non-lethal rounds (if ever issued) or other non-lethal devices that would deter and persuade a civil disturbance.. yes. I think I may be biased of course in this; but I think the men and women I serve with now (and the ones prior) are probably less likely to follow an order that would even approach raising a deadly weapon at a group of civilians.


I pray every night that guys like you and Jeep are right. I even got into a debate about this a few months back with our friend Smokin04 about this very subject. But...

The orders will not come down from on high tomorrow to round everybody up and send them to the FEMA camps. If it happens, it will be a very slow methodical process. And each step will be a very logical response to a very real-world problem. Look at the mess in Ferguson, MO recently. The cops did not go out immediately looking like robocop ready to do battle. But as the rioting started it escalated the police response until we ended up with robocops marching down the street.

Yes, I understand military is very different than LEO. And I am not trying to sound like I am anti-military. I assure you, I am the furthest thing from that. But the puppet masters in DC are experts at raising the confrontation incrementally. IF the U.S. military were to be turned against the citizens (and that is still a HUGE IF), they would do it in such a way that each step of the process would seem to all concerned like the next logical step. But at the end of the day, it would end at the same place. I assure you, I do not want to think of my government doing something like that to me. But in 2014 that is where we are at.

My apologies if I offend; that is not my intent.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Inor, I had a similar argument with others about the aus defense force

I just can't see military used in this fashion (unless its under the UN, and that's a completely diffrent argument, as you wouldn't use Americans as the core troops but you will send Americans to India (just to give a picture, I don't know their plans) so you have UN lead foreign troops doing the work local forces can not or will not) 

But leo is well set up to act as a "military" with structure and equipment against citizens of their nation... and thats one level of their job even tho they target crims, we are all one law away from been a crimanal


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Inor said:


> I pray every night that guys like you and Jeep are right. I even got into a debate about this a few months back with our friend Smokin04 about this very subject. But...
> 
> The orders will not come down from on high tomorrow to round everybody up and send them to the FEMA camps. If it happens, it will be a very slow methodical process. And each step will be a very logical response to a very real-world problem. Look at the mess in Ferguson, MO recently. The cops did not go out immediately looking like robocop ready to do battle. But as the rioting started it escalated the police response until we ended up with robocops marching down the street.
> 
> ...


The mindset of today's military is not the same as it was when I first joined in 82. Just as our society is less interested in individual freedom and have little understanding of the constitution, so does our military and law enforcement.

The studies mentioned in the OP are probably familiar to many of you, and I see them having an effect on the behavior of the troops, but I think there is more to it than that.

Consider, for example, the number of younguns who entered the military in order to achieve citizenship. Do they owe their allegiance to the constitution, or to those they serve in order to get citizenship? Not so much their fault that they don't understand the oath they took; the fault lies on the shoulders of those allowing them to enter before even understanding the constitution and the concepts upon which it is based.

Also, anyone who has been placed in the contonement area at Bragg before going to do a job understands that the army can control your movement and information before you are sent to do a job. What is really happening and what the soldier is told is happening might not be the same thing.

As far as the peer pressure thing, that is a tough one to buck. You train and work as a unit. You follow the orders of your officers and NCOs. Mission first. Hooah. Worry about the details later. Don't let your buddy down.

Combine it all, and I see the average soldier violating the constitution if given orders that violate it. I don't blame the soldier. I would blame the chain of command. The company commanders and the first sergeants are the key to it all. Pray for them.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

"The mindset of today's military is not the same as it was when I first joined in 82."

No, the ones that actually have minds and fit to be there are demoralized and offended at the content of today's military. Obama has seemingly been using it for just another revenue stream to undesirables for his haha septic tank kingdom.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Remember denton the main reason to joining the forces, and the whole honor and history thing the USA military has... 

Its grey, I may have too much faith that our own militaries won't obay been used against us... 

But that doesn't mean foreign forces won't be used to do the heavy lifting


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Denton said:


> Really?
> 
> Why not discuss the concept, rather than attack the member?


First all the tests were on a very limited subject group.
Second many of the tests were done in the 70's with little or no effort at establishing peer review.
Third nothing in the testing shows what todays soldiers - in today's world - would do. Remember all of our soldiers are volunteers not conscripts.
Fourth, it doesn't really matter what 90% of soldiers say they'll do. It all depends on what a handful - the Officer and NCO Corps - will do. And a good number of your NCO's are a lot like old SF and me very well grounded in what's right and wrong and what is a "lawful" order.

So believe what you want, I'd be more concerned by agitators - like those outside looters in Missouri or some of our very vocal Militia types - causing the type of event that would get a very rapid and fatal response.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Very good points all.
I am concerned that there are a number of small groups within the military that have no love for God, Country or Mankind. As Denton mentions there are a number of young gang members that have joined the military in exchange for citizenship. The anarchist is a concern as well. And of course the person that is driven by power. 
But, I believe that the good citizenry will quickly eliminate the groups that I mentioned above, should martial law or crisis occur. But not without some bloodshed.
And Sarge mentions the outside agitators, they will be a huge problem.


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

I wonder if the military would refuse to fire on American citizens if they were protesting African Americans? What if they were gays? What if they were any other group that doesn't conform to what most consider "normal". These people are citizens too, and I think the average soldier that has the "Oath Keeper" mentality, wouldn't hesitate to oppress these "weirdos".


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

sparkyprep said:


> I wonder if the military would refuse to fire on American citizens if they were protesting African Americans? What if they were gays? What if they were any other group that doesn't conform to what most consider "normal". These people are citizens too, and I think the average soldier that has the "Oath Keeper" mentality, wouldn't hesitate to oppress these "weirdos".


A good question on this, has it happened in USA modern history?? (Past 100 years or so??) Not to say it won't happen but to see if happened before??


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

pheniox17 said:


> A good question on this, has it happened in USA modern history?? (Past 100 years or so??) Not to say it won't happen but to see if happened before??


In WWII Japanese Americans were rounded up and put into camps in the name of "public saftey". They were not fired upon, but it is a good example of a vulnerable minority being oppressed.

In Waco Texas a large group of men, women, and children were murdered by the US government because they did not conform to what the mainstream considered "normal". As far as I know, no one was prosecuted and sent to prison for these murders.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Some can't take kill'n in many wars soldiers have died because the refused to shoot. For others it gets to easy.
Big reason Military got away from round targets and went back to man shaped targets was solders need the have that picture in their mind not a nice pretty circle.
You could spend a lot time studying this subject.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Some can't take kill'n in many wars soldiers have died because the refused to shoot. For others it gets to easy.
> Big reason Military got away from round targets and went back to man shaped targets was solders need the have that picture in their mind not a nice pretty circle.
> You could spend a lot time studying this subject.


I couldn't agree more Smitty. As far as study time, I'll study at Slippy's Range! (Circle targets optional)

View attachment 6661


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

A very good book on the subject is Lt. Col. Grossmans book called On Killing, it covers some of the topic of group think and the darker side of group think when things go awry. Group think in and of it's self is not necessarily a bad thing. It's when it is manipulated for nefarious purpose that things can get ugly.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

My friend joined the service and he said those guys were bonded - but he said it disturbed him how they would be out doing something and a bunch of happy civilian guys would go by and how, for no reason but carefree, they hated and mocked 'em. I can see maybe 20% like that because Scott wasn't main stream, but that was 30 years ago.
Now I think who we have left in service is smothering in wkrthless, benefit sucking, America hating retards and probably has to do their share for them too so it's standard.
A big, mindless, enemy group think -

Well, for all we kniw, the first thing our guys might do is clean their own ranks. Dream, but a cool one.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Group think can be found about anywhere you look, ladies in a sewing circle are engaging in a form of group think. Identity and association, it's the context in which the group think occur that makes it dangerous or not.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

U.S. troops attacking citizens? The Whiskey Rebellion, The New York Draft Riots, The Washington D.C. WW1 Veterans Bounus Riots, Detroit Riots...... Seems like we a long history of the U.S. Military being used to attack citizens.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Notsoyoung said:


> U.S. troops attacking citizens? The Whiskey Rebellion, The New York Draft Riots, The Washington D.C. WW1 Veterans Bounus Riots, Detroit Riots...... Seems like we a long history of the U.S. Military being used to attack citizens.


You left out The War of Northern Aggression (Mr. Lincoln's war).


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

SARGE7402 said:


> First all the tests were on a very limited subject group.
> Second many of the tests were done in the 70's with little or no effort at establishing peer review.
> Third nothing in the testing shows what todays soldiers - in today's world - would do. Remember all of our soldiers are volunteers not conscripts.
> Fourth, it doesn't really matter what 90% of soldiers say they'll do. It all depends on what a handful - the Officer and NCO Corps - will do. And a good number of your NCO's are a lot like old SF and me very well grounded in what's right and wrong and what is a "lawful" order.
> ...


Thank you for the permission to believe what I want. I think I'll do just that.

You determine the tests are without value because not enough people were involved, because the tests were not handed over to "peer review" before being published and because they were conducted in the 70's. I suppose Pavlov's findings were without merit because he didn't use enough dogs, too.

See post #18, if you will. You quoted my polite request that another member discuss the topic rather than attacking the member who initiated this discussion. I found it interesting that you did so.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Notsoyoung said:


> U.S. troops attacking citizens? The Whiskey Rebellion, The New York Draft Riots, The Washington D.C. WW1 Veterans Bounus Riots, Detroit Riots...... Seems like we a long history of the U.S. Military being used to attack citizens.


In 1967 and 68 there were many groups attacking American society. Riots, burning cities, beatings, bombing buildings, etc.
There were anti-war groups, anti-government, civil rights, plain old anarchists like the Weather Underground, the Yippies, Students For A Democratic Society. And that is just scratching the surface.
America was at a point that many youngsters today could not even imagine beyond words printed on a page. Probably as close to what some call TEOTWAWKI as we have ever come. SHTF for sure, big time.

The 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago was forecasted to be the scene of mass violence (and it turned out to be so).
I was a 19 year old E4 at Ft Carson, Colorado. Our company was one of many on full alert to deploy to Chicago as a rapid reaction force. We were confined to the company area, rucks packed, weapons issued from the arms room. The only thing that hadn't been done was the issuing of live ammo.
In the end, my unit did not go, but others did. Would I have fired on American citizens? Honestly, in self defense I would have. Would I have saddled up and moved out if told to? Of course.
For some of you this is an academic exercise. Others have been there.
I don't think in the future troops would cooperate with blatantly obvious actions such as rounding up innocent civilians. But to stop lawlessness? Don't count on it.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

"America was at a point that many youngsters today could not even imagine beyond words printed on a page. Probably as close to what some call TEOTWAWKI as we have ever come. SHTF for sure, big time."

Those were American citizens whose taxes paid for and still do, those who RAN to the military because any dumb guy could have a legal meal ticket.
Yes, you *** got fascists made up justifications to try and make people live a ****ered up lie at the point of a gun. Get it even close to right.
You in particular I figure are only interested in a good excuse. 
Anyway, that was some grotesque baloney....and baloney it was. Flat pure, and I didn't even like hippiez.


""Would I have fired on American citizens? Honestly, in self defense I would have. Would I have saddled up and moved out if told to? Of course.
For some of you this is an academic exercise. Others have been there.
I don't think in the future troops would cooperate with blatantly obvious actions such as rounding up innocent civilians. But to stop lawlessness? Don't count on it."

Remember, Lawlessness to some is when citizens want to "just say no".
Oh that was a bucket of Stanky false puke bwahahaha! But it was "dramatic" and cowardly...

Bit I thank you. It was perfect. But...today's people aren't those people from a half century ago. Lord! You reminded me how stupid weak and false it was back then. Nobody misses it or stupid scared of shadow brutes. New ones even worse have come...


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

I copied that priceless post. That one is gonna cause a static event from America rolling on the carpet laughing (or crying I guess)


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

oddapple said:


> "America was at a point that many youngsters today could not even imagine beyond words printed on a page. Probably as close to what some call TEOTWAWKI as we have ever come. SHTF for sure, big time."
> 
> Those were American citizens whose taxes paid for and still do, those who RAN to the military because any dumb guy could have a legal meal ticket.
> Yes, you *** got fascists made up justifications to try and make people live a ****ered up lie at the point of a gun. Get it even close to right.
> ...


I wish I was smarter so I could understand this better.
Thanks
Your friend Slippy


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Odd, I don't know what you are saying half of the time but if you are using poor grammar to cryptically name-call and insult, you'd better think twice about your tactic.

Friendly warning.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Methinks Oddapple has changed trees from apple to nut.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

I get the impression that ODDApple doesn't have a very good grasp of American History. Especially since in the 60's the Army was not an all volunteer force. We were draftee's for the most part.

No one ran to the military for a free meal. Some took the option of Military Service rather than Jail time.

And again what's with the racist homophobe accusations?

You're starting to sound like a couple of others from the past.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Slippy said:


> I wish I was smarter so I could understand this better.
> Thanks
> Your friend Slippy


I too, am confused.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

I was there. To a kid that was there, it was very much different and your reactions don't really impress me (crazy, don't know) it was a bunch of dumb hypocrites vs a bunch of spoiled kids and no one cared about anything but beating someone up or complaining about it.
It was dark, gross, dumb and evil. Here we go again.
The rest is one or other scared persons hype. Was there. What a crock. Ahaha! Glad it's dead, but afraid next comes worse...

and I guess it's there for those who choose to read it, just like the fantasy re-tellings of the LBJ's (lyndon b johnsons)


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Ah, now I understand what you are saying. Whew. See? That wasn't so hard!

Yes, there is going to be a lot of hate in the next big dust-up in this country.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks Odd, I was starting to think that I had reading comprehension issues.


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## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

Some of us are a few rounds short of a load or loaded full of shit.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I slipped from a overt basket of hoops once. I am not saying I'm available for flutes but let the magnets fly! How many times we all must bring the liver in from the cold and the cats bounce on the floor with swept wings. Ouch! Let go of my scoop.


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## TxBorderCop (Nov 19, 2012)

Seneca said:


> A very good book on the subject is Lt. Col. Grossmans book called On Killing, it covers some of the topic of group think and the darker side of group think when things go awry. Group think in and of it's self is not necessarily a bad thing. It's when it is manipulated for nefarious purpose that things can get ugly.


Grossman's book was a bunch of horseshit. His premise and theories are based on unfounded hypothesis that have been shown to be false. I read on killing and on combat, what a waste of time. I could have spent it drinking a V8 or reading books from Robert Spencer. Grossman has about as much credibility among LEO's and combat troops as Ray Rice has at a meeting for women who have suffered from Domestic Violence.


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## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

Sorry Tex, but he is some kind of Dr. and he is not real accurate, from a frontline point of view, but you read a scientific book, and that is mainly his expertise, much of what he says is true, but is it always applicable ?
I never read his second book.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

PalmettoTree said:


> Some of us are a few rounds short of a load or loaded full of shit.


:lol:

I gotta write that down!

::clapping::


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

csi-tech said:


> I slipped from a overt basket of hoops once. I am not saying I'm available for flutes but let the magnets fly! How many times we all must bring the liver in from the cold and the cats bounce on the floor with swept wings. Ouch! Let go of my scoop.


What an odd thing to say.


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## Derma-Redi (Aug 23, 2014)

Some would fire and some would not. Those that fire will have to stop & think for a second, what other military person is in their home town firing on their family?
That could change ones perspective. I expect many might even go AWOL to protect their own families if it got real bad?? At the end of the day if they fire on US citizens I suppose they should expect some reciprocation.


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## Dalarast (May 16, 2014)

Derma-Redi said:


> Some would fire and some would not. Those that fire will have to stop & think for a second, what other military person is in their home town firing on their family?
> That could change ones perspective. I expect many might even go AWOL to protect their own families if it got real bad?? At the end of the day if they fire on US citizens I suppose they should expect some reciprocation.


This is actually the thesis that Grossman had in his book as mentioned above. If I remember this book correctly his "scientific" data was based on records and historic digs of battle grounds of soldiers (back to the civil war) that still had rounds/ammo in the weapon. Also was testimonial from soldiers from Vietnam and Gulf war. I do believe that Grossman had a point in that the newer generation is more likely to pull a trigger in combat due to desensitization (from movies, video games, types of training, and the general acceptance of violence in our life now). Now to take away from Grossman... he was a college ROTC instructor and I believe his book was his thesis paper for his Ph.D.... soooo yeah. I read his second book and honestly could not remember one thing about it... tells you how much I enjoyed it. 

Having said all that... it will always come down to the NCOs and Officers ability to comprehend lawful orders.... and also trainig the understanding of lawful orders. Believe it or not for some the military (at least the Army) has increased the amount of training around lawful orders and ROE since the beginning of Iraq to today.... Now if the Joe's could stay awake during these trianings perhaps it would mean something....


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Just a point of interest, the Senior Officer and NCO corps of the military has been seriously decimated by the Present Administration and there has been allot of rumors that it has been done to purge those who are politically "unreliable". In other words, they want to make sure that the military leaders believe the same as they do and will do what they are told regardless of what they are told. If ordered to fire on U.S. Citizens most military members will do exactly that. Of course I could just be in a pessimistic mood this morning.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> Just a point of interest, the Senior Officer and NCO corps of the military has been seriously decimated by the Present Administration and there has been allot of rumors that it has been done to purge those who are politically "unreliable". In other words, they want to make sure that the military leaders believe the same as they do and will do what they are told regardless of what they are told. If ordered to fire on U.S. Citizens most military members will do exactly that. Of course I could just be in a pessimistic mood this morning.


Nothing to add other than I have heard the same rumors from people I work with who are in th Arkansas NG.


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

Some 20 years ago the military was surveying the troops including questions about the possibility of firing on U.S. citizens.
They've been working on this for a long time. I think it no accident that the military has been concentrating heavily on military police training for overseas deployments (overseas for now).


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

Jeep said:


> Reminds me of the Blue eyes Brown eyes experiment in the 70's.


They are still running that experiment, but now instead of having brown/blue eyes you are liberal/conservative or Republican/Democrat. The only difference is there are people preaching for each being better from each side.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

That was a very interesting read. Thank you for bringing it.
I've always been aware of the "group think" aspect of crowds, but these experiments really put a fine point on it.
There is little doubt that our military will comply with such orders.
They are trained from day one to conform and follow orders. Resistance to this is punished.
If the article is any indication, we can expect *MAYBE* 10-15% to not follow orders, and they will be dealt with internally if they can't get away in time.


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## Derma-Redi (Aug 23, 2014)

those are definitely legitimate points!!!


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

jimb1972 said:


> They are still running that experiment, but now instead of having brown/blue eyes you are liberal/conservative or Republican/Democrat. The only difference is there are people preaching for each being better from each side.


... and don't forget the red pill and the blue pill... #smirk

back to the topic...
In my active duty days we taught in senior leadership classes, the 12 personalities present in a group. I do not have a link to share (We used paper most of the time back then), but it rings true over and over again. In every group of 12 people/servicemen/firemen/whoever, you have assertive (loudmouths) on one end and quiet producers on the the other end of the line-up. Every group.
The leaders were never the extremists as hollywood wants you to believe.

When the shooting starts it will not be from the those loudmouthed or quiet producers... it will be from the one of the middles. Maybe one of the "middles" who aspires to be a loudmouth or a "middle" who just wants it all to end and go home.

The leaders are the influencers. Hitler was an influencer. Patton was a influencer. Reagan Obama and influencer. While there method of influence differ their ability to influence came from their inner confidence.

Will the troops fire on US citizens? Probably... but not all of them.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

It's strange to me that this ties together, but this topic was touched on a bit in our evening worship service on Sunday.
The speaker spoke of basic human desires in life.
Primarily, the desire to be part of a community, and the struggle to find a purpose.
Without these, even physical health can deteriorate, not to mention spiritual and mental.
His point was on why fellowship is important, as well as worship.
Community is fulfilled in your congregation, and purpose is fulfilled by instruction to reach out to others to share "the news".

He stopped half way through and made a point.
He read from a military soldier/author who recognized this phenomenon while deployed.
The author claimed that men are NEVER more fulfilled than when at war.
Not because of the violence, but because these two primary desires are completely fulfilled.
They have a community of brothers they train with, eat with, bunk with, laugh with, drink with, that they can count on completely.
They also have a clear purpose handed down from their superiors. They know what is expected of them, they know their assignment, they know their goal, and that is all they must focus on.

This sense of belonging and purpose is incredibly strong. It happens in numerous groups, but few as strongly as in the military.
It will be a formidable task to overcome if orders are given that, to civilians, would be atrocious.
The boots on the ground are molded and shaped to conform. Untold money has been spent on psychological study to design just the right environment to solidify this feeling of unity and order. Breaking from that in order to reject a "fire" order will not be an easy struggle.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

> (Kauboy said) "The boots on the ground are molded and shaped to conform. Untold money has been spent on psychological study to design just the right environment to solidify this feeling of unity and order. Breaking from that in order to reject a "fire" order will not be an easy struggle.


Yes sir. The movie "Crimson Tide" is an excellent study of that dilemma. 
A clear objective.
A defined enemy.
Muddy orders... it will be a bad scene.


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