# Bug out Locations



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

I am currently building a small "compound" in an area that has both mild winters and mild summers, currently I have a perimeter wall and fence surrounding a small courtyard, aprox. 1/4 acre in size, and I was planning on moving on to shelter for between 4-6 adults from different families, bringing dependents. Now I was thinking of going with a shipping container with small partitions inside as living quarters and for some of our storage area, but lately I've been thinking that a small group of small shed-like one room buildings would work since the perimeter is already secured. I worry I am missing a piece of the puzzle that I may not be thinking of. What do ya'll think?


----------



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Not knowing your topography or much else about your location or the order of priority of your preparations, I might suggest a renewable water source with in the compound to avoid being cut off from water. Also sanitation would be a large concern for the prevention of disease.


----------



## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Oh no not another magic shipping container fort


----------



## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

1/4 an acres is about 13,000 square feet. It takes roughly 8,000 sq feet to grow food for one person. 

As the previous poster noted water is most critical, but food is next. Mild weather means rain. How much, and are you set up to collect and store that rain water, treat it, filter it, and be certain you always have enough for all?

Until you have water, food, and sanitation in order I'd opt for tents.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

Thank you guys for your ideas
Food and water are a non-issue, my area not only receives a massive amount of rainfall, but there are ponds and creeks aplenty, all of which are clean and safe, food is also a non issue as even though we will only be able to house a portion of the food crops and smaller livestock inside the walls, I have a large amount of land and the walls are alos surrounded on the outside by my planted fields. sanitation has also been taken care of by way of some contraptions I have come up with. my main issue now is housing for those of us in my group. and again I was brainstorming on that end, to put living quarters inside the walls for us.

in terms of topography think light rolling hills mostly plains and forested areas, small bodies of water with plenty of rainfall and mild winter and summer.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

pheniox17 said:


> Oh no not another magic shipping container fort


I assure you I am not trying to bury a shipping container bunker and die in a cave-in, I am looking for effective and affordable shelter


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Look into modular style buildings. Most of them are easy to build, relatively inexpensive and conventional construction techniques allow for compatibility. The whole shipping container idea is not a good one in my opinion.

Since you have a relatively small piece of land, I would build a series of rooms that look like an old one story roadside motel, that way you have some shared walls and can cut costs. You can also take hook up solar or other energy systems and allow use for everyone in your group. Common areas like dining and restroom facilities can be added.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

I like that idea, though I have to keep things simple, my skill set is as a mechanic, so my construction skills are very basic.


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

thesean75 said:


> I assure you I am not trying to bury a shipping container bunker and die in a cave-in, I am looking for effective and affordable shelter


No, that one has fits of be-auch that come on inexplicably and only fools take a bite....

What you might think about is straw bale/stucco. Highest insulation (put that candle out! Too hot in here!") Very economical, labor easy and does not require advanced carpentry skills. 
Out here, if they can bury a school bus and make a million dollars off reshook cold tablets, it seems logical one could have a basement too? If you can add "underground / invisible" for your tribe it will help a lot.
We have to (probably) use natural caves here. There is one close to our bug out that so far is unoccupied.
But yes! You can really do some nice things for yourself if you keep turning it in your head.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

I put undergound/invisible through the ringer in my head and have decided that given my location and climate I would settle for planting blackberry/rose bushes along the outside of the fence as defense/food/ and a small bit of camolauge. stucco sounds like a good plan, though straw seems scary flammable. Isn't stucco only really a good choice in desert conditions?


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

thesean75 said:


> I assure you I am not trying to bury a shipping container bunker and die in a cave-in, I am looking for effective and affordable shelter


Don't let them scare you off sc's. The reason they show up so often is they're almost tailor-made for our purposes. You're not going to build anything that's as near bullet-proof as an sc. What would I do? I'd be practical. I'd use shipping containers for the outside walls of the compound. Then I'd heap soil over them for insulation and use them for food storage. It would be even better to bury them, but you could leave them up top as your protection. Then build your wood living quarters inside the steel walls. When you've covered the sc's, you could even use the roof-tops to grow more. Nice camo for all that protective steel. I would think about making the compound bigger, though. You've got lots of space, so why scrimp? You really have to put security high on your list. After shtf, people are going to want all that food you're growing. Oh, and don't worry about cave-ins. Those shipping containers are stacked while full and shipped cross country by train. No way will they fail. No, what worries me is that long-term, you're not allowing people much private space. Unless your projected group is all-military and all men, they won't take well to having noplace to get away from everyone else.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

SCs are very strong and stackable but the problem is all the strength is in the frame, not the top, bottom, or sides, which do cave in when put under too much pressure, I was only considering using one as just putting it inside the walls as a shelter from the elements as the walls provide security, i have built the walls already and they are fairly small but that is with security in mind, think medieval castle, most of the village was outside the walls but in times of emergency they were excellent and safe shelters, much of our operation is outside the walls because if we walled in the entirety of the land we need to feed our group, it would be entirely too large to defend.


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

thesean75 said:


> I put undergound/invisible through the ringer in my head and have decided that given my location and climate I would settle for planting blackberry/rose bushes along the outside of the fence as defense/food/ and a small bit of camolauge. stucco sounds like a good plan, though straw seems scary flammable. Isn't stucco only really a good choice in desert conditions?


IF you want it to last the 80 years it is billed for.
If you are looking for fast, cheap, warm/cool that is east to remove later it is an option. 
There, if you bleached out your bales and added some moisture barrier in your mortaring I would think you should get several years out of it.


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

thesean75 said:


> SCs are very strong and stackable but the problem is all the strength is in the frame, not the top, bottom, or sides, which do cave in when put under too much pressure, I was only considering using one as just putting it inside the walls as a shelter from the elements as the walls provide security, i have built the walls already and they are fairly small but that is with security in mind, think medieval castle, most of the village was outside the walls but in times of emergency they were excellent and safe shelters, much of our operation is outside the walls because if we walled in the entirety of the land we need to feed our group, it would be entirely too large to defend.


That actually sounds so very cool ~ keep on! I love "let's build a monastery" and heck there? If nothing happens you paint it up trick and sell tickets!  ahaha!


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Given your descriptions, I figure you're somewhere like north central Tennessee. I'd be reluctant to call anything above-ground as being shelter from weather. An F3 or 4 would pick that thing up like a kid picking up a hot-wheels car. That's not my definition of security. But, you may be in a safer spot. There are spots like that. I know, I live in one . And, of course, like everyone else, it's just my opinion.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

Ya I feel sometimes i'm the only one around that seems to think this stuff is important, I dont even have my group set yet, I have all this infrastructure for a group without manpower yet haha


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Well, you're likely to need a bunch to cover all the workers needed to replace those 'modern conveniences'. It's amazing how much time it takes to do daily chores. Dealing with daily vegetables is the easy part. What's your plan for energy production? Or are you planning on going full-Amish?


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

thepeartree said:


> Given your descriptions, I figure you're somewhere like north central Tennessee.


while reluctant to give a specific location, I am in the northwest US, not much hurrican or tornado issues here. biggest issue would be possibility of volcanos once every hundred years, but otherwise, weather is mild.

and in terms of power, the current *haha* plan is to get a small solar panel to power occasional small nightime lighting or emergency lighting, and crank powered radio/flashlights, so we would be going mostly amish-style, which isnt so terrible, many of my neighbors growing up were a particularly hardcore group of amish and they did alright for themselves


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Yep, they do. You fooled me with the temperate climate bit. And don't let the '100 years' bit fool you. Mt. Ste. Helens is cranking up, as is Shasta. And when Yellowstone lets go...!
Anyway, are you lucky enough to have a flowing stream nearby? That's a source of free power that most people totally miss. Also, you're going to be better off with some refridgeration capability, for medication if nothing else. Not to mention you'll be better off with communications. That means ham radio for anything beyond a few miles and walkies close by. Both run a lot better with electricity. Even the Amish have neighborhood payphones for emergencies!


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

well in terms of a water wheel for power, as I said before, I am alone in my building, and i dont know electrician things, so I could easily have a water wheel power a set of gears to create motion, but not electricity, I am also not sure I want to get into HAM, it seems like a very drawn out process I may want to stay away from, and walkie talkies are on my list, though stll looking into ways to manually charge them,


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

thesean75 said:


> well in terms of a water wheel for power, as I said before, I am alone in my building, and i dont know electrician things, so I could easily have a water wheel power a set of gears to create motion, but not electricity, I am also not sure I want to get into HAM, it seems like a very drawn out process I may want to stay away from, and walkie talkies are on my list, though stll looking into ways to manually charge them,


That's one of the reasons you put together a group. And of course there won't be much to getting going in ham radio post-shtf. Yes, there are alternatives to charging a walkie-t, but what I meant is that there are any number of good reasons to have some limited generation capacity. 
With all that farmland around, hows your wood heating capacity?


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Do not let anyone tell you that a shipping container is bullet proof. They are not.


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Slippy said:


> Do not let anyone tell you that a shipping container is bullet proof. They are not.


I agree. On the other hand it's a little better than raspberries and roses, hm?


----------



## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

If you have hills. / creeks then you likely have good clay content in the soil. Look at a compressed earth machine. That is the least expensive way I can imagine to build.



thesean75 said:


> Thank you guys for your ideas
> Food and water are a non-issue, my area not only receives a massive amount of rainfall, but there are ponds and creeks aplenty, all of which are clean and safe, food is also a non issue as even though we will only be able to house a portion of the food crops and smaller livestock inside the walls, I have a large amount of land and the walls are alos surrounded on the outside by my planted fields. sanitation has also been taken care of by way of some contraptions I have come up with. my main issue now is housing for those of us in my group. and again I was brainstorming on that end, to put living quarters inside the walls for us.
> 
> in terms of topography think light rolling hills mostly plains and forested areas, small bodies of water with plenty of rainfall and mild winter and summer.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

thepeartree said:


> I agree. On the other hand it's a little better than raspberries and roses, hm?


Shipping containers might be a nice place to store a chainsaw or a lawnmower but you think living in one is a good alternative to most conventional construction? No way. Big ole coffin in my humble opinion.

Poured concrete walls are a much better in my opinion. Raspberries and roses are nice decoration I will admit.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

thepeartree said:


> I agree. On the other hand it's a little better than raspberries and roses, hm?


I have cinderblock/rebar walls, with wooden fencing outside it, with gravel in between, the bushes provide food and the thorns and bramble help to deter personnel from coming up on the wall. this is why im looking only at shelter from the elements for the actual living quarters.


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Maybe it's all psychological, but I feel better with a steel wall between me and nosy neighbors. A small point, Sean: plan to pour concrete down the open spaces inside all those blocks. It will do wonders for durability and armor rating.

I had another question- how are you irrigating this land? Diverting from a nearby stream, or...?


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

thepeartree said:


> Maybe it's all psychological, but I feel better with a steel wall between me and nosy neighbors. A small point, Sean: plan to pour concrete down the open spaces inside all those blocks. It will do wonders for durability and armor rating.
> 
> I had another question- how are you irrigating this land? Diverting from a nearby stream, or...?


How are you funding this? steel plates are enormously expensive, especially with a large project like a wall, again, cinderblocks and rebar, in order to build with this medium, concrete is needed, not just wanted to keep the rebar in place and useful. I have enough rainfall to grow a rainforest. do not require irrigation.

but again my main issue is settling on the berthing and getting that set


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

thesean75 said:


> How are you funding this? steel plates are enormously expensive, especially with a large project like a wall, again, cinderblocks and rebar, in order to build with this medium, concrete is needed, not just wanted to keep the rebar in place and useful. I have enough rainfall to grow a rainforest. do not require irrigation.


Steel wall as in shipping container . I stand by filling those blocks with concrete. It makes a big difference. We can't assume that he Bad Guys won't have something nastier than a 12 ga. And don't get the feeling that e're trying to give you a hard time. If we can help by shining light on something you haven't thought through or maybe showing you something you didn't know, then we're doing a good job.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

thepeartree said:


> Steel wall as in shipping container . I stand by filling those blocks with concrete. It makes a big difference. We can't assume that he Bad Guys won't have something nastier than a 12 ga. And don't get the feeling that e're trying to give you a hard time. If we can help by shining light on something you haven't thought through or maybe showing you something you didn't know, then we're doing a good job.


I thnk you misunderstood me, they are already filled with rebar and concrete as that is standard practice. that steel wall is giving you a false sense of security, even a .22 will pierce sheeting as thin as it is in SCs.


----------



## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

Thesean, I am going to try to post a link for you.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

Ripon said:


> If you have hills. / creeks then you likely have good clay content in the soil. Look at a compressed earth machine. That is the least expensive way I can imagine to build.


Wow looking into that, compressed earth is now my forerunner for the berthings, thanks so much for the great idea, I never even knew they existed


----------



## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

I thought I may have had something for you


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

Jeep said:


> I thought I may have had something for you


Ya yall are opening up whole new avenues for me to take, I'm really glad I decided to ask the forums.


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

I think you misunderstand standard practice . The average block wall you see has no rebar. The most it has, in windy locations and only if the architect specifies it, is some metal lattice of the same wire size as a tomato cage between one course and the next. When I was an apprentice mason, I always thought that the little bit of strength it provides isn't worth but about $5 a run, but if they feel better at night (and want to pay for it)... Real rebar is always worth it, to my mind. In all cases, it needs someone who knows what they're doing to install it.

I can give you a pointer or two if you know what you're up to. Did you build the wall or was it contracted out?


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

ok, the wall is built, it has rebar in it, the rebar is held in place by the concrete in the holes of the cinderblocks, I wouldn't not use rebar, it enormously helps with stress, including from seismic activity.

the wall and rebar and concrete is not hypothetical it is real and it is up.


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

thesean75 said:


> ok, the wall is built, it has rebar in it, the rebar is held in place by the concrete in the holes of the cinderblocks, I wouldn't not use rebar, it enormously helps with stress, including from seismic activity.
> 
> the wall and rebar and concrete is not hypothetical it is real annd it is up.


Ok, then consider parging the outside of your wall. If you know standard practice, then you'll already have done that, but I'll take a chance that you may not have done that yet.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

Parging is not planned, I coated it with sealant before installing the fence and gravel


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Good enough. Most people won't, of course. Now, you were considering collecting rainwater for drinking? It's getting hard to keep track of all the threads asking about it . Maybe you could install a corrugated steel roofing slanted towards the inside of the compound. Then a standard gutter will collect.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

rain collection is in the plans, we will have a covered area where the roof extends partially out from the shelters, creating shade outside and more rain collecting area


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

thepeartree said:


> Don't let them scare you off sc's. The reason they show up so often is they're almost tailor-made for our purposes. You're not going to build anything that's as near bullet-proof as an sc. What would I do? I'd be practical. I'd use shipping containers for the outside walls of the compound. Then I'd heap soil over them for insulation and use them for food storage. It would be even better to bury them, but you could leave them up top as your protection. Then build your wood living quarters inside the steel walls. When you've covered the sc's, you could even use the roof-tops to grow more. Nice camo for all that protective steel. I would think about making the compound bigger, though. You've got lots of space, so why scrimp? You really have to put security high on your list. After shtf, people are going to want all that food you're growing. Oh, and don't worry about cave-ins. Those shipping containers are stacked while full and shipped cross country by train. No way will they fail. No, what worries me is that long-term, you're not allowing people much private space. Unless your projected group is all-military and all men, they won't take well to having noplace to get away from everyone else.


Sorry to disagree with the load bearing capacity of containers. We went thru this about 6 months ago. The capacity of the top of a container is not to excede 150 LBS per sq ft. Sand, dirt and gravel, etc. goes around 97 to 110 LBS per cubic foot, rock is more. I'd look at the idea of creating a berm and only put a little covering on the top and then disguise the berm as something natural. Hopefully it'll never flood that way.


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Well, my original idea was to do just that. Then I said to myself 'if that works, why not put the container in a hole and build a 'house' on top of it?'. There are lots of possible uses. Heck, you could even get 4, stand them on end, one at each corner of the compound and use them as the castle towers. Let's not limit possibilities. The comment I made about burying them was purely for the regulated environment it would provide for food storage.


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

if you bury a container the walls will collapse from the force of the soil against them. Even "burming" the sides is likely to collapse the sides. The walls of a shipping container will not stop a 22 rimfire round they are not even bullet resistant.

The best use for a shipping container is as a wall - filling them with sand or soil to stop bullets. 

If someone is determined to get past the ouside walls they will get in. Plan on it. I would build the homes in a pattern that allows them to be multiple firing points from multiple angles and thereby build in "cross fire" areas for anyone trespassing. If you put them all together in a small area they are easier to defeat. One small bottle of gasoline and styrofoam and all the homes are on fire. I think a staggered "X" formation with no shared walls would be the best for mutual defense.


----------



## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I had been considering a sandbag structure seen a few being built and then i was shown an eco home made from tires. Be a fantastic route IMHO something you can get going on the side with small incremental investments.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

TacticalCanuck said:


> I had been considering a sandbag structure seen a few being built and then i was shown an eco home made from tires. Be a fantastic route IMHO something you can get going on the side with small incremental investments.


not to mention tires filled with sand with maybe some vertical rebar would be both sturdy and (im willing to bet) very bullet resistant


----------



## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

thesean75 said:


> not to mention tires filled with sand with maybe some vertical rebar would be both sturdy and (im willing to bet) very bullet resistant


Bingo. Its a win win all around. Very inexpensive people are happy to get rid of the materials as they think of them as garbage and i bet it could take a lot of lead before starting lose its integrity.

The one i saw was built into the side of a hill and the tractor tires used were filled with tin cans earth rebar and other non biodegradable stuff. Then the earth was pushed up to another side so as to make it look like a hill. All in all i was very impressed.


----------



## thesean75 (Oct 5, 2014)

I would assume some sort of frame(wood?) would need to be used to make it truly habitable for the long term, even if it was just some 2X4s and plywood to keep insects, wind and such out and everyone inside comfortable with being inside.


----------



## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

thesean75 said:


> I would assume some sort of frame(wood?) would need to be used to make it truly habitable for the long term, even if it was just some 2X4s and plywood to keep insects, wind and such out and everyone inside comfortable with being inside.


Here is a link to one such home. Off the grid.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/life/h...ctricity-bills/article4602606/?service=mobile


----------



## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

TacticalCanuck said:


> Here is a link to one such home. Off the grid.
> 
> The $55K, 2,900-square foot, eco-friendly home ? with no electricity bills - The Globe and Mail


Thanks for the link. It's a great idea. Dennis Weaver did this in his home in Santa Fe back in the late 70's.


----------

