# NYC Cop not to be indicted.



## MrsInor

Let the riots begin. Just the headline on Fox no details yet.


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## Smitty901

Will NY burn ? From what I understand it is a leak, not the official verdict yet.


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## MrsInor

Smitty901 said:


> Will NY burn ?


Wouldn't bother me if it did.


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## MrsInor

No indictment for NYPD cop in chokehold death of unarmed man, source says | Fox News


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## SDF880

I hope the guy that was choked was the A hole that mugged me with his friends at LaGuardia awhile back!


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## csi-tech

I watched that video several times. I know Officers can't be expected to know everything about positional asphyxia or excited delirium but nobody uses choke holds any more. I honestly expected an indictment of some sort.


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## mcangus

MrsInor said:


> Let the riots begin. Just the headline on Fox no details yet.


Oh man, so much riot provoking news lately. Surprisingly the NYC Mike Brown protests looked very civil. Hopefully when the protests start tonight it will remain civil as well but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets hot.


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## Boss Dog

doh!... lock & load Margaret, here they come again! ::rambo::


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## warrior4

I'm very surprised at this one too. This seemed like a clear cut example of excessive force. There was a clear miscarriage of justice in this case.


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## Camel923

If it burns can it be called Urban Renewal?


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## Slippy

Who here has been cuffed before? Hmmmm?

Well I have and I'm still here to tell you that when the 4 cops standing around me told me to shut the hell up, get on the ground face-down and place my hands behind my back....I DID! (1981 Panhandle of Florida, Banned for Life from one small town that shall remain nameless)

What is wrong with these people, all races I'm sure, who are in a no win situation with LEO's and try to fight?


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## AquaHull

mcangus said:


> Oh man, so much riot provoking news lately. Surprisingly the NYC Mike Brown protests looked very civil. Hopefully when the protests start tonight it will remain civil as well but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets hot.


Isn't there a tree lighting at RockyFeller Plaza tonight @ 8PM est.It will be on TV,with Carrie UnderWear performing and others


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## AquaHull

Slippy said:


> Who here has been cuffed before? Hmmmm?
> 
> Well I have and I'm still here to tell you that when the 4 cops standing around me told me to shut the hell up, get on the ground face-down and place my hands behind my back....I DID! (1981 Panhandle of Florida, Banned for Life from one small town that shall remain nameless)
> 
> What is wrong with these people, all races I'm sure, who are in a no win situation with LEO's and try to fight?


I woke up with the Silver Bracelets a few times.
Must be the Fighting Irish in me.


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## oddapple

Stock market continues to rise...


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## Salt-N-Pepper

This was WAY over the line, dude was selling illegal smokes (as in ciggys, not pot) and ends up choked to death? 

The government does nothing?

Forget black, forget white, put that aside... we are REALLY going to let our cops CHOKE people to death when it's obviously not necessary (they could have done a LOT of other things to neutralize him), and even though it's specifically against department policy and training nothing is done?

Really?


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Slippy said:


> Who here has been cuffed before? Hmmmm?
> 
> Well I have and I'm still here to tell you that when the 4 cops standing around me told me to shut the hell up, get on the ground face-down and place my hands behind my back....I DID! (1981 Panhandle of Florida, Banned for Life from one small town that shall remain nameless)
> 
> What is wrong with these people, all races I'm sure, who are in a no win situation with LEO's and try to fight?


Pepper spray & taser come to mind immediately. Start with stuff TRAINED by your department and LEGAL in your department. Go with that.


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## Inor

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Pepper spray & taser come to mind immediately. Start with stuff TRAINED by your department and LEGAL in your department. Go with that.


NYC does not even train their police to shoot straight. Why would you expect them to train them in anything else? Remember this is the same PD that a year or so ago, two cops unloaded 16 shots from their weapons and managed to hit 9 innocent bystanders. Afterwards, the PD said "I believe it was handled well".

NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire | Fox News

I have absolutely no problem with police killing bad guys. But when they cannot shoot straight enough to avoid injuring 9 freakin people in the process, it was NOT handled "well".


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## Slippy

There is no doubt that many LE Departments in many cities have been in the news lately regarding abuse or alleged abuse, and we've debated that more than a few times on this Forum. What ever happened to people using some common sense when a bunch of cops are around you having caught you doing something illegal? Especially something so stupid as selling cigs? 

We all know that a cultural mindset exists in some communities to hate, fear and distrust the police. They had this fat dude "dead' to rights, he should have turned and placed his fat ass arms behind his back and allowed them to cuff and stuff him. He didn't have to fight them, it was a no win.

I just saw some film and the peeps are gathering at Times Square at 5:50 ET. Why, who knows but someone may simply yell "Burn this Bitch Down"? We shall see.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Inor said:


> NYC does not even train their police to shoot straight. Why would you expect them to train them in anything else? Remember this is the same PD that a year or so ago, two cops unloaded 16 shots from their weapons and managed to hit 9 innocent bystanders. Afterwards, the PD said "I believe it was handled well".
> 
> NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire | Fox News
> 
> I have absolutely no problem with police killing bad guys. But when they cannot shoot straight enough to avoid injuring 9 freakin people in the process, it was NOT handled "well".


It is absolutely proper and right to hold the police... the people walking around the streets and carrying guns... to a higher standard than they currently are, you are right, their level of training isn't enough... but "I needed more training" doesn't excuse them from the fact that they shot up half the city, nor does it excuse the fact that this guy died for selling a pack of smokes.

Should the guy have turned around and spread em? Yes. Should he be dead because a cop who didn't know what the hell he was doing (obviously) choked him to death? No.

I ABSOLUTELY have a problem with the police killing a guy on the streets selling cigarettes, a guy who wasn't hurting anybody. This isn't a police state, we can't have cops killing people, even through neglect, and have there be no consequences whatever.


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## Diver

I work in NY. I expect peaceful protests, not riots.

As for the NYPD, their most recent kill was the guy in the stairwell a week or so ago that they have tried to describe as a "accidental discharge".

If you are interested in this topic, please see the front page of today's Wall Strret Journal.


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## Notsoyoung

A few things, a choke hold is not illegal in NY. It is against the NYPD policy, but not against the law. The guy had been arrested 31 times before. The criminal, and he was a criminal, did not die because he was illegally selling cigarettes on the sidewalk. He died because he was breaking the law and resisted when Police Officers tried to arrest him. The whole "he died because he was selling cigarettes" argument sounds very similar to " Lil Mikey died because he took some cigars" and "Trevon died because he was walking down the street". Sorry, but I don't buy any of them. Maybe the police used too much force, and I would buy that, but let's make it what it is. The police were wrong but the guy wasn't some kind of angel and he was also partially responsible for resisting arrest.


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## Diver

Sorry, but I cannot agree. Selling cigarettes in NY is about as serious as a traffic violation. The police don't have a license to kill over traffic violations.

This was at best a screw up by NYPD.


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## Smitty901

Yep and Obama is already running his mouth about it. Where was he when the white guy was beat to death with a hammer in St Louis ?
They did not kill him for selling cigs he resisted he is a big guy, his action caused his death not LE in this case.
How would any of us taken him down? Or if someone resist LE is suppose to just let them walk.


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## Ripon

Sorry but police officers aren't like obummer. They can't just ignore laws like he does. They are required to enforce them. There is a long video on this episode that I hope everyone will see. I haven't got a link to it at the moment, but the primary officer and his man had a history. The man resisted. He is big and would not go peacefully as requested many times.

Another news of note was that it looks like a choke hold and its close to a choke hold but its not one. He did not interlock his arms as required for a choke hold, and even the autopsy ruled there was no evidence the officers did anything over the top physically. This poor man who resisted up to his death suffered from high blood pressure and possibly other ailments (i heard that not read it) which contributed to his demise. It could have been avoided completely if he'd accepted his fate for violating the law the officers were required to enforce. Why do people blame the cops for HIS actions? That's like blaming Darren Wilson for being attacked and nearly killed or Zimmerman for being beaten and head slammed on the pavement. In all 3 of these cases the MEN DEAD were the ONLY one's that could have prevented being DEAD.



Diver said:


> Sorry, but I cannot agree. Selling cigarettes in NY is about as serious as a traffic violation. The police don't have a license to kill over traffic violations.
> 
> This was at best a screw up by NYPD.


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## Ripon

Well give obummer a break Smitty! CNN and the main stream media hasn't covered the dead Bosnian (we don't say white guy) in St. Louis much.



Smitty901 said:


> Yep and Obama is already running his mouth about it. Where was he when the white guy was beat to death with a hammer in St Louis ?
> They did not kill him for selling cigs he resisted he is a big guy, his action caused his death not LE in this case.
> How would any of us taken him down? Or if someone resist LE is suppose to just let them walk.


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## Oddcaliber

Well,if Zoo York goes up in flames dose that include the stupid laws as well?


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## Notsoyoung

Diver said:


> Sorry, but I cannot agree. Selling cigarettes in NY is about as serious as a traffic violation. The police don't have a license to kill over traffic violations.
> 
> This was at best a screw up by NYPD.


The police didn't "kill over traffic violations". That's pure BULL. He died because he resisted arrest. If you want to argue that he shouldn't have died because he resisted arrest, fine, but don't try to make it sound that he was speeding so they decided to kill him. If he had gone quietly it wouldn't have happened.


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## SARGE7402

Diver said:


> Sorry, but I cannot agree. Selling cigarettes in NY is about as serious as a traffic violation. The police don't have a license to kill over traffic violations.
> 
> This was at best a screw up by NYPD.


I think you really missed what was happening to the Cig seller. He was being placed under arrest. And he resisted. Now if it's a lawful arrest and he's resisting, the officers involved are allowed to use the minimum amount of force to effect the arrest. And - at least here in Virginia - if you do not sign the traffic summons, the officer is required by law to take you forthwith to a magistrate


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## Arklatex

The NYPD used a choke hold that was against department policy. But it was not an illegal choke hold. The reason this guy died was because he had serious health issues. Asthma, heart disease, hypertension, and he was obese. Lots of people with these conditions die when they are handcuffed and laid face down. Especially if they are obese. I bet he would have died if they used OC on him too.

It was a stupid law to be enforced but the police were called to the scene. Then the 350 pound guy resisted and died for it. It was screwed up on all sides.


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## Diver

Smitty901 said:


> Yep and Obama is already running his mouth about it. Where was he when the white guy was beat to death with a hammer in St Louis ?
> They did not kill him for selling cigs he resisted he is a big guy, his action caused his death not LE in this case.
> How would any of us taken him down? Or if someone resist LE is suppose to just let them walk.


The selling of untaxed cigarettes should not involve an arrest at all. A Notice to Appear is sufficient. That whole incident was also pretty fast and the guy's "resistance" was to put up his hands, back up, and say he didn't do anything. You don't kill someone for that. You have to give him a chance to comply.

As for Obama, we all know enough about him to ignore him.


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## Smitty901

Diver said:


> The selling of untaxed cigarettes should not involve an arrest at all. A Notice to Appear is sufficient. That whole incident was also pretty fast and the guy's "resistance" was to put up his hands, back up, and say he didn't do anything. You don't kill someone for that. You have to give him a chance to comply.
> 
> As for Obama, we all know enough about him to ignore him.


 Never been there doe that have you. Classic trick to act as he did used by people his size. He brought it on himself sad it happened but 100% his fault


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## Diver

Smitty901 said:


> Never been there doe that have you. Classic trick to act as he did used by people his size. He brought it on himself sad it happened but 100% his fault


What he did was a very natural reaction. The responsible cop violated policy, killed a non-violent man, and should be fired. A badge is not a license to kill, even if the guy happens to be large. I expect this one will now move to civil court and the city will pay a few million to settle.

Then we get to move on to the "accidental discharge".


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## Inor

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> It is absolutely proper and right to hold the police... the people walking around the streets and carrying guns... to a higher standard than they currently are, you are right, their level of training isn't enough... but "I needed more training" doesn't excuse them from the fact that they shot up half the city, nor does it excuse the fact that this guy died for selling a pack of smokes.
> 
> Should the guy have turned around and spread em? Yes. Should he be dead because a cop who didn't know what the hell he was doing (obviously) choked him to death? No.
> 
> I ABSOLUTELY have a problem with the police killing a guy on the streets selling cigarettes, a guy who wasn't hurting anybody. This isn't a police state, we can't have cops killing people, even through neglect, and have there be no consequences whatever.


I agree with you. My point is, the New York City police are by far the worst I have witnessed in any other city in the country. They are untrainable no matter how much you spend on it due to corruption and due to the fact that they just hire dumb guys to be NYC cops in some cases.


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## Diver

Inor said:


> I agree with you. My point is, the New York City police are by far the worst I have witnessed in any other city in the country. They are untrainable no matter how much you spend on it due to corruption and due to the fact that they just hire dumb guys to be NYC cops in some cases.


You forgot to mention the NY trigger! LOL


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## Old SF Guy

MrsInor said:


> Let the riots begin. Just the headline on Fox no details yet.


Mrs. Inor...Inor...All...many will not like what I say here but I will say it all the same.

What they did was wrong...This man sold some cigarettes... If it had been pot he would have gotten a ticket...nothing more. But these cops decided to do an arrest and did so in mass with several officers piling on this man. He laid there in cardiac arrest with these shit head officers not even asking "why is he not breathing hard", "why isn't he out of breath now", "why is his eyes open and fixed and non blinking?" even the POS EMT's failed to check him properly. This is a man dealing in low risk black market cigarettes, due to the ultra high taxation on tobacco, which created the demand. But if it where pot it would be, "here's a $25 dollar fine...good day citizen." That shit is wrong and in OSFG honest to god opinion, Involuntary manslaughter should be the charge. What life is worth a cigarette tax...why the felony take down over such a low level issue? sure he resisted...taze his ass if needs be....but they watched this man die and didn't even really check his pulse or use common sense.

I'm disgusted by these cops and EMT's.

OSFG


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## Old SF Guy

Ripon said:


> Sorry but police officers aren't like obummer. They can't just ignore laws like he does. They are required to enforce them. There is a long video on this episode that I hope everyone will see. I haven't got a link to it at the moment, but the primary officer and his man had a history. The man resisted. He is big and would not go peacefully as requested many times.
> 
> Another news of note was that it looks like a choke hold and its close to a choke hold but its not one. He did not interlock his arms as required for a choke hold, and even the autopsy ruled there was no evidence the officers did anything over the top physically. This poor man who resisted up to his death suffered from high blood pressure and possibly other ailments (i heard that not read it) which contributed to his demise. It could have been avoided completely if he'd accepted his fate for violating the law the officers were required to enforce. Why do people blame the cops for HIS actions? That's like blaming Darren Wilson for being attacked and nearly killed or Zimmerman for being beaten and head slammed on the pavement. In all 3 of these cases the MEN DEAD were the ONLY one's that could have prevented being DEAD.


RIPON, where I agree cops have a duty to uphold the law...this should not be an arrest offense...if selling pot to a certain gram is a misdeamnor and nothing more than a ticket, how can selling a cigarette be more? It's called unnecessary escalation. Sort of like turning a 10 MPH speeding infraction into a wreckless driving felony stop. It is the discretion of the officer and they went overboard and created a confrontation that was unnecessary. The man was selling cigarettes...why is that an arrestable offense in NY? Bad policy... bad policy...bad leadership.


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## Old SF Guy

If not for the tie in to the Ferguson fiasco..I would be happy to protest this grand jury result....I am sure they will win the civil suit, but the officers and EMT's should be let go...they are negligent.


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## Inor

Old SF Guy said:


> If not for the tie in to the Ferguson fiasco..I would be happy to protest this grand jury result....I am sure they will win the civil suit, but the officers and EMT's should be let go...they are negligent.


Although I would not protest until the grand jury transcripts are made public, I do agree they got this one wrong. But the way the grand jury system works, they are trying to determine if there is enough evidence to bring a trial, not to determine the guilt or innocence. Maybe there just was not enough evidence or maybe they were not shown the video... There could be a lot of reasons.


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## Old SF Guy

I think it's fairly telling when a self described critic of the black community and it's virtues stands up and says ..."this is wrong" I am no friend to the black movement and find it contra to what I stand for....but they are humans..as are we...and they are Americans..as are we....Laws cannot be based on liberal agendas...which these are...pot a misdemeanor...cigarettes a felony.


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## Old SF Guy

Inor said:


> Although I would not protest until the grand jury transcripts are made public, I do agree they got this one wrong. But the way the grand jury system works, they are trying to determine if there is enough evidence to bring a trial, not to determine the guilt or innocence. Maybe there just was not enough evidence or maybe they were not shown the video... There could be a lot of reasons.


I would think that at the very least...they will win a civil suit for the EMT not even recognizing cardiac arrest...or checking breathing and pulse....Millions...I would say. and that is sad..tax payers paying for POS city employees.


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## Inor

Old SF Guy said:


> I would think thagt at the very least...they will win a civil suit for the EMT not even recognizing cardiac arrest...or checking breathing and pulse.


They will win a civil suit without question.


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## Ripon

Yeah well blazio can't wait to write em a check of other people's money



Inor said:


> They will win a civil suit without question.


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## Old SF Guy

RIPON....The city leadership..and the cops need to know when they have overstepped decency. Unfortunately it is just a money deal which will be overlooked by the leadership. They should see it from an acceptance position. Cops are the local communities peace enforcers...not the gestapo.


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## Inor

Ripon said:


> Yeah well blazio can't wait to write em a check of other people's money


In this case I do believe it is justified. It was a wrongful death that could have been avoided.

Now, how big that check should be is another story. How much is petty criminal's life worth?


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## Old SF Guy

You know this whole deal pisses me off....We can't be ardent supporters of the law enforcement in every case. WHere I firmly believe the black community plays on race division and takes advantage of govt handouts...I too can believe police overstep and cities over reach, and government is ultimately corrupt. Call me cynical...and color me antagonistic.


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## Slippy

I think I'm done with New York City. Fools, Socialists, Elitists, Over-Reaching Bureaucrats, Corrupt LEO, Corrupt Criminals. But I stand by my view that if 4 cops surround you and tell you to shut the hell up and lie face down, hands behind your back, I'm doing it.
The other option (like fat ass chose) is FUBAR.


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## Old SF Guy

Slippy said:


> I think I'm done with New York City. Fools, Socialists, Elitists, Over-Reaching Bureaucrats, Corrupt LEO, Corrupt Criminals. But I stand by my view that if 4 cops surround you and tell you to shut the hell up and lie face down, hands behind your back, I'm doing it.
> The other option (like fat ass chose) is FUBAR.


Better to live to fight another day......


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## BagLady

The Officer who choked this man had to turn in his badge and gun. They said what he did was a violation, not illegal. 
Since when is it not illegal to kill someone? Even tho it was accidental. I agree this whole thing is BS. People, regardless of color have to be held
accountable for thier actions.


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## Arklatex

Google this: Asphyxial Death During Prone Restraint.

This man had health issues. The takedown wouldn't have killed an average person.

See post #29 in this thread


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## Old SF Guy

Arklatex said:


> Google this: Asphyxial Death During Prone Restraint.
> 
> This man had health issues. The takedown wouldn't have killed an average person.
> 
> See post #29 in this thread


Ark my issue is not whether his actions where legal or not..but whether they where justified or not. Selling cigarettes is worthy of a felony arrest..or any arrest but having Pot is just a ticket....really????? The law is what is questioned here...and the policy for enforcement. It's simply a money issue...not a public health issue so I dislike the law and the statute that would call for an arrest of a person selling a cigarette.

Irrespective of his health ..he would be alive if they hd issued a ticket instead of an arrest warrant.


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## Denton

Here's my rub with the situation.

It has been known for decades that blacks are prone to not waking up from a choke hold. Decades, now. Heck, I was taught this and I haven't worked in that field for a long, long time.

This is why I am surprised the grand jury didn't come back against the cop.


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## Old SF Guy

Denton said:


> Here's my rub with the situation.
> 
> It has been known for decades that blacks are prone to not waking up from a choke hold. Decades, now. Heck, I was taught this and I haven't worked in that field for a long, long time.
> 
> This is why I am surprised the grand jury didn't come back against the cop.


Denton...I don't think your being serious here...as in a choke hold being a noose...any human wakes up basically the same from a choke hold barring health issues and is race irrelevant. I am not sure what you where intending here but it was lost on me.


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## Old SF Guy

The point being...to choke a man out is one thing...to stand by as he dies is another. I don;t blame them for taking him down...I blame them fr not recognizing he was in distress....that they caused.


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## Slippy

Old SF Guy said:


> Ark my issue is not whether his actions where legal or not..but whether they where justified or not. Selling cigarettes is worthy of a felony arrest..or any arrest but having Pot is just a ticket....really????? The law is what is questioned here...and the policy for enforcement. It's simply a money issue...not a public health issue so I dislike the law and the statute that would call for an arrest of a person selling a cigarette.
> 
> Irrespective of his health ..he would be alive if they hd issued a ticket instead of an arrest warrant.


Goes back to over-reaching laws voted on by elitists and ignorants who choose regulation over liberty every time. Its their law, he broke it and then he was foolish enough to fight when he was unprepared physically to fight. Hell, the dead fat guy probably voted for the politician who put the law in place.


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## Denton

Old SF Guy said:


> Denton...I don't think your being serious here...as in a choke hold being a noose...any human wakes up basically the same from a choke hold barring health issues and is race irrelevant. I am not sure what you where intending here but it was lost on me.


I meant exactly what I said. Their carotids do not always open back up. I don't know if the reason is genetic, dietary or what.


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## Old SF Guy

Well maybe I do not know enough about black physiology..and apparently I no less about black rights...but I know that if I had to sale cigarettes on the streets ...I would like to know I would be better treated than if I sold pot..or maybe selling dope is better for us.


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## SARGE7402

Old SF Guy said:


> You know this whole deal pisses me off....We can't be ardent supporters of the law enforcement in every case. WHere I firmly believe the black community plays on race division and takes advantage of govt handouts...I too can believe police overstep and cities over reach, and government is ultimately corrupt. Call me cynical...and color me antagonistic.


I think what really iratates me about a number of folks here and on the liberal media, is that no one want's to trust the justice system to do the job it was intended to do. Everyone wants a rush to lynch law. Remember it's not that long ago that my boss was dispatched to a group of whites with a black man in tow and a rope looking for a tree.

If you don't like the laws that are being enforced write your congressman senator etc and work to get them changed.

If you don't like how the criminal justice system works again work with your legisators to fix the system.

But to fault a Grand Jury for doing a very difficult job under lot of pressure - from all sides - just because it offends your sense of right and wrong is no different than what BHO did in his executive order on illegals. I don't like it so it's wrong.

Would you rather have a dictator say that well since they're black they can rob steal assault anyone they like and they won't ever be arrested or prosecuted?

Some days it would almost be a relief to have R and his cockamamie rants back on this site


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## ntxwheels

Listening to news radio yesterday it was stated that the dude had been arrested on 38 prior occasions.

Begs the question; was he known to resist arrest? 

Anyway, fat, unhealthy and a prior long criminal record.. Pretty stupid to try to resist and in his case his actions caused his death.


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## Diver

Inor said:


> In this case I do believe it is justified. It was a wrongful death that could have been avoided.
> 
> Now, how big that check should be is another story. How much is petty criminal's life worth?


I would not call someone who committed a traffic violation a "petty criminal" and what this guy was doing was less important than a traffic violation.

As far as I know his priors were for the same thing, nothing violent.

This is the same department that gave us Amadou Diallo annd Abner Louima. They are the reason for the NY trigger.


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## machinejjh

If he had done what they told him to do, and not done what he did, they wouldn't have done what they did, and he wouldn't be done. But he didn't.


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## KBJensen

Slippy said:


> Who here has been cuffed before? Hmmmm?
> 
> Well I have and I'm still here to tell you that when the 4 cops standing around me told me to shut the hell up, get on the ground face-down and place my hands behind my back....I DID!


Would you do it once every week, for the rest of your life or would you, at some point, say no, I'm tired of this bullshit?

I grew up in a inner city / Urban environment In Denmark, and were harrased on a weekly basis, never been charged or convicted, never done anything illegal. One day you say no to the cops. I guarantee it.


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## Notsoyoung

KBJensen said:


> Would you do it once every week, for the rest of your life or would you, at some point, say no, I'm tired of this bullshit?
> 
> I grew up in a inner city / Urban environment In Denmark, and were harrased on a weekly basis, never been charged or convicted, never done anything illegal. One day you say no to the cops. I guarantee it.


This guy had been arrested 31 times prior to this. Whether you think what he was doing should be legal or not is immaterial, he was BREAKING THE LAW, he was ARRESTED, and HE resisted arrest. Argue that the cop should be indicted for using a choke hold if you want, but don't ignore the CRIMINAL'S own actions and culpability in what happened, and don't start some crap about how the cops were picking on him because of his race. The Sergeant in charge of the detail, and who was present the whole time, was Black.


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## Arklatex

Old SF Guy said:


> Ark my issue is not whether his actions where legal or not..but whether they where justified or not. Selling cigarettes is worthy of a felony arrest..or any arrest but having Pot is just a ticket....really????? The law is what is questioned here...and the policy for enforcement. It's simply a money issue...not a public health issue so I dislike the law and the statute that would call for an arrest of a person selling a cigarette.
> 
> Irrespective of his health ..he would be alive if they hd issued a ticket instead of an arrest warrant.


I agree that it was a stupid law. A person should be able to sell single smokes if they want. But we are talking about NYC. There are tons of stupid laws there. The problem was that he got belligerent and argumentative with the police. If he would have showed some restraint and been polite he would have probably gotten away with a ticket and his life. I doubt they were called to the scene by the shopkeepers to arrest him. The real screw up was that they did not lay him on his side so he died of positional asphyxiation. And they watched... which is f**ked up.


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## Diver

Arklatex said:


> I agree that it was a stupid law. A person should be able to sell single smokes if they want. But we are talking about NYC. There are tons of stupid laws there. The problem was that he got belligerent and argumentative with the police. If he would have showed some restraint and been polite he would have probably gotten away with a ticket and his life. I doubt they were called to the scene by the shopkeepers to arrest him. The real screw up was that they did not lay him on his side so he died of positional asphyxiation. And they watched... which is f**ked up.


Charles Krauthammer and Andrew Napalitano even think there should have been an indictment.


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## Slippy

KBJensen said:


> Would you do it once every week, for the rest of your life or would you, at some point, say no, I'm tired of this bullshit?
> 
> I grew up in a inner city / Urban environment In Denmark, and were harrased on a weekly basis, never been charged or convicted, never done anything illegal. One day you say no to the cops. I guarantee it.


KBJensen
If you got hassled by the Denmark Urban Police once a week its probably time to get some professional help because you have either a Learning Disorder or a Behavior Disorder...Or both.

What the hell were you doing to get hassled? And what happened when you finally said No Mas? (Pictures Please or it didn't happen).
Thanks
Slippy


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## Notsoyoung

Diver said:


> Charles Krauthammer and Andrew Napalitano even think there should have been an indictment.


If you want to argue that he shouldn't be arrested for that, go for it. Maybe the law should be changed. That's not up to Law ENFORCEMENT Officers.
If you think that the police officer should be charged with reckless endangerment, fine.
DON'T try to make it sound as though a group of out of control Cops went out looking for some poor Black man to kill. A BLACK Female Sergeant was in charge of the detail. The man had been arrested 31 times before. He resisted arrest. The "choke hold" was not the only factor in the man's death. According to the Coroner the man's obesity, asthma, hypertension, and laying on his face with his hands handcuffed behind his back were all contributing factors.


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## KBJensen

I just dressed like all kids did in the early 90's, wore a baseball cap and a hoodie, that was the trend back then, but it was also what the drug dealers wore. I grew up next to Christiania (Google it) and were harrased weekly, only due to where I live and what I wore. 

I've been slammed to the ground, roughed up, threatened to be charged with grand theft and on the account of being a pusher, none of which has never been true. 

So I can relate to city kids that don't do what the officers want them to. 

You EARN respect by the way you behave, NOT by the uniform you wear.


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## KBJensen

Also, I speak 5 languages, have an education and a steady job, so don't mistake me for some street kid ;-)


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## KBJensen

My point being, from what I've experienced, is that the police very much judge a person based on clothes, color, location ect. and this is why some people don't do what the officers say, and I don't believe that this should result in someone dying.... Ever. Like that kid with the toy gun, or the dude from Ferguson, guilty or not. 

I'm aware that the statistics in the US show that a cop is being killed every 24th hour and they have to take precaution, but when they exaggerate and someone gets hurt, they should be punished.


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## KBJensen

Rodney King was high, wouldn't pull over and a danger in the streets, but should he has been beaten for that? No. The police should enforce, not be the judge and the jury.


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## Slippy

KBJensen said:


> I just dressed like all kids did in the early 90's, wore a baseball cap and a hoodie, that was the trend back then, but it was also what the drug dealers wore. I grew up next to Christiania (Google it) and were harrased weekly, only due to where I live and what I wore.
> 
> I've been slammed to the ground, roughed up, threatened to be charged with grand theft and on the account of being a pusher, none of which has never been true.
> 
> So I can relate to city kids that don't do what the officers want them to.
> 
> You EARN respect by the way you behave, NOT by the uniform you wear.


I've heard of Free Town Christiana and that was one messed up situation and probably contributed to the amount of crap that you had to endure.


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## Slippy

KBJensen said:


> Rodney King was high, wouldn't pull over and a danger in the streets, but should he has been beaten for that? No. The police should enforce, not be the judge and the jury.


Rodney King took a multi million dollar ass kicking, he was highly compensated. I believe that in a world where everyone has a cell phone/camera many of these thugs are looking to cash in. Pretty comical, sad and Effed Up if you think about it.


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## Inor

Diver said:


> I would not call someone who committed a traffic violation a "petty criminal" and what this guy was doing was less important than a traffic violation.
> 
> As far as I know his priors were for the same thing, nothing violent.
> 
> This is the same department that gave us Amadou Diallo annd Abner Louima. They are the reason for the NY trigger.


Let's not get carried away here. Fat boy was out on bail when he got whacked. They do not haul you in and make you post bail for a minor traffic violation. (I have had more than a few traffic violations in my day so I know that from experience.) Of course being out on bail is not a whackable offense, but it is not to be dismissed either.

This is a case where it proves mixing a morbidly obese street punk with an overly aggressive cop is a worse idea than telling a "two lesbians walk into a bar" joke.


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## Notsoyoung

Slippy said:


> I've heard of Free Town Christiana and that was one messed up situation and probably contributed to the amount of crap that you had to endure.


You are trying to imply that the guy was innocently standing on the street and was arrested because he was Black, and that is WRONG. He was BREAKING THE LAW. Like it or not, it is the LAW, and Police officers are sworn to enforce the law. The Sergeant in charge of the detail, a BLACK Female sergeant, decided that the man should be arrested. At the start of the video the police were telling the man what he was doing was illegal, and he was telling them to mind their own business, or something to that affect. Then they decided to arrest him, and he resisted. He was culpable in his own death.


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## Prepared One

Irragardless of weather he should have been arrested, ( And I believe he should have been. I agree with Inor. He was no saint taking a stroll through the park ) once they are placing you under arrest and you resist, only bad things will happen. Mostly to you. I know of where I speak. Once being placed in custody shut up stupid.....do as asked and live to fight another day. LOL You can resist and fight afterwards with attorney or through the press if you feel the need.


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## oddapple

" You EARN respect by the way you behave, NOT by the uniform you wear."

When one is wearing the "punk" uniform du jour, one doesn't get much chance to "earn" respect. 
(Plus Hoodies make it to hard to spot the apricot)


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## Ralph Rotten

csi-tech said:


> I watched that video several times. I know Officers can't be expected to know everything about positional asphyxia or excited delirium but nobody uses choke holds any more. I honestly expected an indictment of some sort.


Naw. He'll get hammered in civil court like David Goetz. The only reason the department hasnt fired him yet is because it would be a testimonial against them when the lawsuit gets to court. The lawyers will sue everyone in an attempt to find toe deep pockets, and that'll be the city.

This guy looked like he was used to using that hold. He was not a virgin, and the litigants lawyers will dig up priors arrestees to testify. He's financially screwed for the rest of his life.


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## Diver

Inor said:


> Let's not get carried away here. Fat boy was out on bail when he got whacked. They do not haul you in and make you post bail for a minor traffic violation. (I have had more than a few traffic violations in my day so I know that from experience.) Of course being out on bail is not a whackable offense, but it is not to be dismissed either.
> 
> This is a case where it proves mixing a morbidly obese street punk with an overly aggressive cop is a worse idea than telling a "two lesbians walk into a bar" joke.


They don't need to haul you in for selling cigarettes either. A notice to appear, aka a ticket, is all that is required.

The NYPD has a reputation for killing innocent people and minor offenders. They have earned that reputation over time. If this was the first time something like this occurred in NYC you might be able to pass it off as a fluke. However, just this year we have had major news stories around not only Garner, but clubbing a 84 year old man into the pavement for jaywalking, shooting a guy who just happened to walk into a stair case, a multi-million dollar settlement, etc. This is not a one off.

There is a reason for the NY trigger.


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## Maxxdad

I do not believe the officer used a Carotid Restraint aka "Choke Hold". I was taught the restraint and used it successfully many times. In reviewing the tape, pressure does not appear to have been applied against the sides of the neck. You can google the Carotid Restraint and see how it works. The take down used is currently taught in LE Academies across the country and is accepted procedure by NYPD. I believe with the health issues suffered by this gentleman, the physical exertion of the resisting and subsequent take down caused his heart to fail. I might have just written him a citation to appear and sent him on his way. But that was not their directive in this case.

I do not believe that #! there was a Fed Civil Rights Violation #2 The officers behaved criminally or #3 Any of them will be terminated.

I can't speak to the racial issues, or historical police brutality issues. But as to the take down I believe it was proper.
Maxx


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## shootbrownelk

Diver said:


> Sorry, but I cannot agree. Selling cigarettes in NY is about as serious as a traffic violation. The police don't have a license to kill over traffic violations.
> 
> This was at best a screw up by NYPD.


 They don't have license to kill for traffic violations....yet. You get arrested in NYC for selling contraband, untaxed cigarettes. You get a CITATION for posessing pot. From what I've seen on the videos of the killing, it's pretty clear cut to me. He said "I can't Breathe" ELEVEN times and the cops still keep kneeling on his neck? Well, there's a 75 million dollar wrongfull death suit filed by the family. What do you want to bet that they win?


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## oddapple

Tobacco is a bigger, longer standing tax issue than pot is (for now...) cigarette smuggling is considered as liquor bootlegging. I suspect also in ny, most street cigarettes are considered stolen goods.


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## Boss Dog

Depends on how combative he was with the police before hand. If you don't cooperate at all or get belligerent, the police are going to get tough on you. I read somewhere that he has had about 30 charges on him before, he was no angel. I haven't heard for sure what the department policy is on take-downs and choke holds but, If he could speak, he could breath. I agree it doesn't look good for NYPD, but I think more will come out from the autopsy.


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## Ralph Rotten

oddapple said:


> " You EARN respect by the way you behave, NOT by the uniform you wear."
> 
> When one is wearing the "punk" uniform du jour, one doesn't get much chance to "earn" respect.
> (Plus Hoodies make it to hard to spot the apricot)


Approach begets response.


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## Notsoyoung

Maxxdad said:


> I do not believe the officer used a Carotid Restraint aka "Choke Hold". I was taught the restraint and used it successfully many times. In reviewing the tape, pressure does not appear to have been applied against the sides of the neck. You can google the Carotid Restraint and see how it works. The take down used is currently taught in LE Academies across the country and is accepted procedure by NYPD. I believe with the health issues suffered by this gentleman, the physical exertion of the resisting and subsequent take down caused his heart to fail. I might have just written him a citation to appear and sent him on his way. But that was not their directive in this case.
> 
> I do not believe that #! there was a Fed Civil Rights Violation #2 The officers behaved criminally or #3 Any of them will be terminated.
> 
> I can't speak to the racial issues, or historical police brutality issues. But as to the take down I believe it was proper.
> Maxx


I heard the same thing from a retired NY Police Detective on the news this morning. It WAS NOT a so-called "choke-hold" as is banned by the NYPD. What he used was an acceptable take down method taught in the police academy.

A few points. The store owners of the area called the police and complained about this guy and others who were setting up shop in front of their businesses and bothering their customers. The Police Chief for the district, a Black man, ordered a NYPD Sergeant, a Black Women, to take a detail and move the men out from in front of the businesses.

The Police officers told the man to move from that location. They weren't there to arrest him, nor did they intend to. HE told the Police Officers that what he was doing was none of their business and to leave him alone. THAT's when they decided to arrest him. HE resisted arrest, and the Coroner said that there were multiple things that contributed to his death. His airway temporarily being closed, him being morbidly obese, his type 2 diabetes, his undiagnosed heart condition, his hypertension, and him lying face down on the sidewalk with his hands behind his back (see morbidly obese). The arm around his neck was not sole reason for his death.

By the way, if you have taken any type of First Aide Class you would know that in order to talk you need air to pass through your vocal cords. In other words, if you can say "I can't breath", YOU CAN BREATH.

I don't particularly give a rat's hairy behind about some of the past transgressions of the NYPD. Out of 20,000 Cops I would be shocked if there weren't some screw ups and would strongly suspect a whole lot of covering up going on if you never heard of any. It is NOT the case in this situation. It WAS NOT racially motivated, and IT WAS mostly due to the actions of yet again, another "gentle giant".


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## oddapple

Ralph Rotten said:


> Approach begets response.


Yes, said the unarmed underwear punk to the gun wielding giant....duh. 
Is this you? I've often wondered?


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## paraquack

Ok, I've read all the posts and will throw out my 2 cents. Whether or not you agree that the law of selling cigarettes w/o a tax stamp is good or bad, it is the law. He was a repeat offender (30 times, geez). He refused to obey a lawful police order to move. He resisted arrest. So what are the cops supposed to do from now on when someone takes exception to a lawful order, walk away? I hope not. How many LEOs are going to wait a fatal second too long because they have to worry about what will happen if they have to drop the hammer on someone with a gun. I'm sorry but in MHO, he brought it on himself by his career choice, his obesity and his attitude. Were things done wrong, sure. But hind sight is always 20-20. Will the officer involved be able to live with what he's done, maybe, maybe not. Maybe the LEO is an asshole and can ignore what he did. I know I had a lot of sleepless nights as a paramedic wondering if I did everything I could have. Maybe the cop will too.


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## Daddy O

Back in the day when Rodney King got beat i was still with the SO. If you asked a cop if it was excessive force, half would deny it. Really, half of the cops out there thought it was an appropriate level of force. But if you asked a jailor, 19 out of 20 would say it was excessive. Why? Because jailors are used to being unarmed. Corrections officers would have simply dogpiled him (and probly inflicted some pain with akido...leaves less marks.) 

Personally, i always felt that the king beating was clearly excessive force, but i would not have trouble with a law that lets the cops beat the crap out of anyone who gets into a high speed chase on populated roads. Essentially Rodney was shooting guns at every car he sped past. And that legal beating should be on top of all the other charges. 

One time DPS booked a guy who crashed during a chase. I asked him why he did it, we found no warrants, drugs, he didn't even have a record. He said he just didn't feel like getting a ticket. He got 6 months county for that nonsense.


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## Old SF Guy

SARGE7402 said:


> I think what really iratates me about a number of folks here and on the liberal media, is that no one want's to trust the justice system to do the job it was intended to do. Everyone wants a rush to lynch law. Remember it's not that long ago that my boss was dispatched to a group of whites with a black man in tow and a rope looking for a tree.
> 
> If you don't like the laws that are being enforced write your congressman senator etc and work to get them changed.
> 
> If you don't like how the criminal justice system works again work with your legisators to fix the system.
> 
> But to fault a Grand Jury for doing a very difficult job under lot of pressure - from all sides - just because it offends your sense of right and wrong is no different than what BHO did in his executive order on illegals. I don't like it so it's wrong.
> 
> Would you rather have a dictator say that well since they're black they can rob steal assault anyone they like and they won't ever be arrested or prosecuted?
> 
> Some days it would almost be a relief to have R and his cockamamie rants back on this site


I agree Sarge and if I lived in a state that had law issues like that I would take action. Down here in the south they don't go over board with the taxes at state levels because we actually grow tobacco here. But more importantly I wasn't bemoaning the Grand Jury for reaching a verdict I disagree with, I was saying it pisses me off when law enforcement officers escalate without justification. That man didn't swing at them...there were four or five officers standing there so they knew they were going to arrest him and came prepared to take him down the hard way....again....for selling cigarettes. That's what pisses me off. And Sarge, I , like you, have earned my right to protest whatever the hell I want. And If me expressing my well earned freedom of speech offends you...then It's probably best you go chase old R down, cause I'm not gonna waste another second discussing it with you.


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## Old SF Guy

Notsoyoung said:


> I heard the same thing from a retired NY Police Detective on the news this morning. It WAS NOT a so-called "choke-hold" as is banned by the NYPD. What he used was an acceptable take down method taught in the police academy.
> 
> A few points. The store owners of the area called the police and complained about this guy and others who were setting up shop in front of their businesses and bothering their customers. The Police Chief for the district, a Black man, ordered a NYPD Sergeant, a Black Women, to take a detail and move the men out from in front of the businesses.
> 
> The Police officers told the man to move from that location. They weren't there to arrest him, nor did they intend to. HE told the Police Officers that what he was doing was none of their business and to leave him alone. THAT's when they decided to arrest him. HE resisted arrest, and the Coroner said that there were multiple things that contributed to his death. His airway temporarily being closed, him being morbidly obese, his type 2 diabetes, his undiagnosed heart condition, his hypertension, and him lying face down on the sidewalk with his hands behind his back (see morbidly obese). The arm around his neck was not sole reason for his death.
> 
> By the way, if you have taken any type of First Aide Class you would know that in order to talk you need air to pass through your vocal cords. In other words, if you can say "I can't breath", YOU CAN BREATH.
> 
> I don't particularly give a rat's hairy behind about some of the past transgressions of the NYPD. Out of 20,000 Cops I would be shocked if there weren't some screw ups and would strongly suspect a whole lot of covering up going on if you never heard of any. It is NOT the case in this situation. It WAS NOT racially motivated, and IT WAS mostly due to the actions of yet again, another "gentle giant".


And if you have taken any first aid you also to check for the A,B,C's none of which were checked by the officers or the EMT's That is where the law suit will get won. ANy fool would know that a man just involved in an altercation is out of breath and gasping for air...while this man lay there without breathing and 5 officers and two EMT's didn't even check him out. SAD, SAD, SAD,...regardless of whether the take down was justified and lawful...The after math and lack of first aid killed the man as surely as if they had shot him and let him bleed out.


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## Diver

paraquack said:


> Ok, I've read all the posts and will throw out my 2 cents. Whether or not you agree that the law of selling cigarettes w/o a tax stamp is good or bad, it is the law. He was a repeat offender (30 times, geez). He refused to obey a lawful police order to move. He resisted arrest. So what are the cops supposed to do from now on when someone takes exception to a lawful order, walk away? I hope not. How many LEOs are going to wait a fatal second too long because they have to worry about what will happen if they have to drop the hammer on someone with a gun. I'm sorry but in MHO, he brought it on himself by his career choice, his obesity and his attitude. Were things done wrong, sure. But hind sight is always 20-20. Will the officer involved be able to live with what he's done, maybe, maybe not. Maybe the LEO is an asshole and can ignore what he did. I know I had a lot of sleepless nights as a paramedic wondering if I did everything I could have. Maybe the cop will too.


What they are supposed to do is issue a summons, just like a traffic violation.

For those arguing about whether it was a chokehold, I'll go with the coroner who ruled it a homicide and that the guy had been choked.


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## Slippy

If this had happened during Mayor Rudy Giuliani the liberals and the media would be asking for his head on a platter as well as the Police Commissioner. Why aren't they asking de blasio commie these questions?

Yet one more example of the media making the news and causing more trouble/unrest.

No go and bash some muslimes on this glorious day!


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## Maxxdad

Any death, caused by another is a homicide. Cause of death was not asphyxiation.


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