# SHTF - Kayaking Down River?



## Sir Publius (Nov 5, 2016)

So the mice were running around in my head the other day and I got to thinking. I literally live maybe a mile from a small river that runs a few miles before it dumps into the lower Missouri River north of the Sioux City Iowa area. My folks live in near the Kansas City area, also literally a few miles from the Missouri River, and if anything ever happened, their farm would be the rally point. It'd probably be a few week trip down river (Its about 300 miles by highway for those not familiar with the area, and the highway runs parallel to the river the whole way).

Here's a scenario: Let's say, just throwing it out there, there's an EMP situation, and say my car and most other cars die. I know, I know, there is great debate as to whether that would happen, but just play along, lol. What problems do you all foresee, or not foresee, with kayaking with supplies (tent, food, water etc) down river over a week or two....what dangers do you foresee?

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DANGERS I SEE: My first thoughts would be I wouldn't be worried about the river or the elements as much as other people. Seems to me to be an AWFULLY exposed way of traveling. Initially I thought people from shore could take shots at me etc., and I literally would be a fish in the barrel. But for those who know the lower Missouri, its a big river, and with a lot of it, one could stay in the middle and paddle hard...its also a swift river in many parts, which might make for a tough moving target at least, for the crazies who are tempted to take a shot at me. Plus if someone from shore did shoot at me, or shoot me, how would they retrieve me, and my meager supplies unless I was real close to shore? So maybe I wouldn't be a that big a target, even if exposed, from the shore at least. So then I got to thinking, I would still be a fish in the barrel...but maybe more so for boaters with an actual motorized boat, or maybe people at overpasses .

That's just a few thoughts I had about the dangers. Again, what dangers do people see with kayaking down river such a long distance, or conversely, what positives do you see? If things were relatively safe, it'd be a great way to travel for my situation....never away from water, fishing, the current is probably between 3-5 MPH even if you aren't paddling etc. Any additional thoughts about what one would run into would be great!

Who wants to go kayaking/camping now?! Can't wait for spring!


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## Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

@ Sir Publius how many supplies can you carry in a Kayak. Would you be ahead to pull your supplies in a canoe behind you? what about paddling a canoe instead? I imagine you could hold a lot more supplies. I can't imagine someone shooting at you unless you were quite close to shore. as you alluded to there would be nothing gained by shooting at you in the middle of the river unless the shooters had a boat of their own. What would benefit you is to make a short practice run. Load up supplies and see what it would be like. Sounds like a heck of an adventure if you could pull it off.:encouragement:


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

What are you smoking?


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## Sir Publius (Nov 5, 2016)

Joe said:


> @ Sir Publius how many supplies can you carry in a Kayak. Would you be ahead to pull your supplies in a canoe behind you? what about paddling a canoe instead? I imagine you could hold a lot more supplies. I can't imagine someone shooting at you unless you were quite close to shore. as you alluded to there would be nothing gained by shooting at you in the middle of the river unless the shooters had a boat of their own. What would benefit you is to make a short practice run. Load up supplies and see what it would be like. Sounds like a heck of an adventure if you could pull it off.:encouragement:


How much supplies can you carry in a kayak? Depends on the kayak. I've been looking around at the various types of kayaks there are, and actually, you can hold a fair amount of stuff in fore and aft bulkheads including a tent, food, water etc. Your standard recreational kayak is maybe 10 ft. A touring/sea kayak, which are much better for longer trips are usually 14-16 ft., and they are the ones with more storage, so no need to tow anything. You could store enough food for a week or two, and just bring a fishing pole in case, right? I wouldn't do a canoe because I would be afraid of tipping it and losing everything. Kayak's seem more maneuverable to me personally. And if you're gonna travel a long distance, stumps, sandbars, whirlpools, you name it...all it takes is one. You can flip a kayak and if you know how to handle it, flip it right back up. That was my thinking on why a kayak.

Seriously though, I don't know what it is, but I just got a bug to go kayaking/camping. Great area north of me that does all that. Can't wait till spring....not to kayak 300 miles...but just to kayak locally.


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## Sir Publius (Nov 5, 2016)

bigwheel said:


> What are you smoking?


Just between you and me bigwheel...the good stuff.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

As with roads, bridges will become choke points over bodies of water, If a group of people decide to protect their community and not let passerbys travel through then you will be back on foot, most likely with less supplies. Hope you bring some of the good stuff...


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## ffparamedic (Dec 14, 2015)

Get a canoe, more stable and holds way more supplies. It's a very doable and sensible method of transportation.

Get on Google Earth and use the pointer to figure out your actual river miles. Load up your canoe with weight simulation and get an avg mpg speed to determine how long it will take you.

As far as being shot at, I see it pretty unlikely. However I'd hide/sleep during the day and travel at night. Just make sure you're well versed in getting out and then righting your canoe should you flip.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Many hunters have shot and killed running game. Person in a small boat wouldn't be that hard of a target. You would be moving to one side and not jumping or leaping into the air like a deer. Sitting on water which makes it REALLY easy to walk the rounds into you. Besides every corner you would be coming straight at the shooter which will make it easier. 

The masses will all be at their secret BOL along the river just waiting for supplies to float by. People will be desperate enough to kill for a can of beans. Even kill for the chance of a meal.

However if you traveled only at night on moonless nights. Hope no one has thermal or night vision. You might have a chance.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Biggest hole I can shoot in your kayak escape is they dont carry much weight!!! Yeah I know they claim my Prowler 13 will hold 350 lbs but they are high on crack...I think thats what it takes to sink it not safely hold it and still perform. Yes they make some "Big Boy" Yaks but they paddle like barges not kayaks and your gonna have 22 inch guns and shoulders to match by the time you get 300 miles down stream! If you go Kayak your gonna have to go light and think minimilist.

Yes the 15-16 footers are great for touring and have lots of storgae space. Thier long length makes them awesome to paddle and pretty fast too. But with that long length comes a very narrow beam.. Keep that on mind as you choose a vessel.

If your paddling more than a few miles...invest in a carbon fiber paddle! Yes they are a lot more expensive but man are they much easier to paddle all day long when your trying to cover some ground. I stalked Academy for months until they ran a sale on Carbon Fiber paddles and I will tell you that was the best 120 bucks I paid in my life (normally they are about 200 plus)!

Might consider a Hobie with mirage drive. You can peddle or paddle. A lot of guys doing long trips out on the ocean to fish are using the Hobie Island Adventure or Island Adventure Tandems. Your able to carry a little more weight. With the Ama's they are super stable. They can be paddled, peddled or Sailed as a tri-maran at a very surprising speed! They make a lot of accessories for these two models too! Yes they are pretty pricey. It wouldnt be a good model on any kind of rapids. The Outback model would probably be a good choice for you and what your trying to do. It has a considerably higher weight capacity but a bit of a slug to paddle. Yeah it cost more than a Yak at wally world but when you consider what comes as standard equipment on a hobie vs what is standard on a typical brand of Yak the Hobie's are only about 300 bucks more and give you the option to peddle the mirage drive. There is also a sail package available for this one although its small and fairly slow going under sail.

For what its worth...Im saving my pennies for a Adventure Tandem!!! My Prowler 13.5 has served me very well fishing the last 12 years but I am looking to upgrade to something better and take the next step up in style and class, so an Adventure Tandem is in my future!


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm not going to touch on the amount of supplies...nor about vessel type or types, but rather focus on hazards.

All waterways began to be used as predominant trade routes for as far back as history has been recorded. Through nearly all that recorded history are tales and stories of bandits and pirate activity. It's present because its true and its real.

A slow moving vessel either must be a vessel using stealth, or a vessel with adequate defensive/offensive capacity... to avoid being preyed upon.

Speed to avoid capture or pursuit is a relative term.... \

Alternatively night time movement will add some measure of stealthiness. But stealth is simply a hope and never a fact...and one needs to plan for failed hopes appropriately.

OSFG


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

It's really not much different then preppers who have suggested using bicycles. Things that come to mind. Get trained. You need to make the trip now when it's safe, and you at least must test the waters at different times of the year. I'm 37 minutes to clearing the golden gate in winter but almost an hour in spring summer. There are differences in weather patterns and tides for me and if I can hit the tide going out I save ten minutes. You will have different seasonal water flows. When you said two weeks and 300 miles I thought you were being silly but I don't know how often you might have to lug out your canoe / kayak and tow it over land? Can you manage it at night? A lot safer in SHTF world at night. Cost guard will fine me for running dark but I've done it for test purposes more than once. Don't do it until you know what you are doing on the water. It's more dangerous on an River than on our bay. To the critics you can carry more on a boat then on a bike or by horse back. A lot more then on foot. I also believe you'll find it much faster then two weeks. 10 miles an our and you should make it in 3 - 4 days unless you are paddling up stream then you'd need power.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I do not see organized hunting/ seizures of water craft occurring immediately. You will have a small window of opportunity. Knowing where you are and what is around the corner is huge. For instance going by say Saint Louis would be best at night. Any kind of extended travel after an EMP or other catastrophic event has its risks. Foot, bicycle, horse, motor vehicle (not affected by emp) will all have choke points, blockades and desperate groups. The further in to said event the more desperate and more organized survivors become. Here is a thought: how will an EMP affecr barges and river traffic? That could through a twist into night travel as you may have to navigate wakes thrown by vessels. Would this be more difficult at night?


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

ffparamedic said:


> Get a canoe, more stable and holds way more supplies. It's a very doable and sensible method of transportation. However I'd hide/sleep during the day and travel at night.





Chipper said:


> Sitting on water which makes it REALLY easy to walk the rounds into you. Besides every corner you would be coming straight at the shooter which will make it easier.


If it is right after an EMP or what ever, I would not worry about people right away. The masses are stupid and its going to take a couple of days to figure out what is wrong and the grocery stores are not going to instantly run out unless there is a run on them. So basically time is your ally if you move swiftly. Its going to take a couple of days for people to get hungry.

Like what ffparamedic said, the canoe would be a better choice for your gear and seating. Besides holding your rucks, if you had to get out and walk the canoe to privacy or around an obstacle or what ever it will be a lot easier hauling it with another person than just by yourself like you would be forced to do with the kayak. Make sure you have a life preserver or at least those floatable seat cushions incase you had to abandon the watercraft.

As far as just moving at night. I would hold off on that till the 3rd day. The first couple of days I would move as much as possible. The plus side with a canoe is that you could sleep while someone else navigated.

Chipper made a good point that someone could walk the rounds into you so it would be important to stay in the middle giving yourself the most distance to either shorelines making your visual signature the smallest you can at a distance. So if someone did try to walk round into you they would not even see them without optics and a spotter. Now the good thing is that you better have a weapon with a high capacity magazine. If someone starts shooting at you, you can return fire. Would you be able to walk rounds on someone if you are taking incoming fire? Like Chipper said if there is a corner its a great spot for an ambush, so you had better keep your awareness level up.

I am looking for a new canoe myself, the last canoe that I had was one of those types with a flat end so you could attach a small motor or a trolling motor (which was kick ass by the way) but going down the small rivers here it sucked because it had this rib (don't know what it is called) down the middle of it and it would not let you turn worth a crap. It was ok on a lake but sucked on a river. If you get a canoe make sure it has a smooth bottom.

I did see a kick butt kayak a Mc Sports. Their closing doors so I am waiting for it to get at a higher discount % on clearance prices. The Kayak is the flat kind with a seat on top. You do not sit inside of it. Behind the seat is a cargo area big enough that you could put a Large Alice Pack on it. In the front is a waterproof area that could hold a lot of gear with a lid with an O ring. Its has a couple of fishing pole holders. The Kayaks color is close to being an OD green. I do have to check to see how much weight it holds. This would be used for pleasure, going camping down the river. I'll try and find a link.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Joe said:


> I can't imagine someone shooting at you unless you were quite close to shore. as you alluded to there would be nothing gained by shooting at you in the middle of the river unless the shooters had a boat of their own.


ha ha ha ... have you seen the recent riots.. people burning limos and doing lots of other things not to gain something but to hurt others

some people would consider it target practice to shot a person in the middle of the river


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Funny story on myself;

As y'all knuckleheads know I'm pretty darn good at most things, Jack of All Trades Master of None kinda guy. Steering a Canoe is NOT one of them! For some damn reason I suck. Yeah, I can manage but when me and Mrs Slippy canoe, SHE is in the back. I'm the muscle but when I'm in the back I usually run her into low lying limbs and banks/rocks and such. Its pretty funny but yes I'm not a good steer-er of the canoe! HA:vs_no_no_no:


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## Sir Publius (Nov 5, 2016)

Appreciate all the info. Some great information in there about boat types, choke points, and when to travel. Considering it might take only 4-5 days to go that far, maybe not as long as I thought, seems to me, as is the case with any sort of "bugging out", that getting out EARLY is the key, because for the first day or two or three people might not be as desperate. That being the case, one would be able to maybe get 3/4 of the way there before measures such as night travel would perhaps be taken...if I got out of dodge immediately that is. 

Great point someone made about bridges being choke points that people will control. They might be controlling them for the purpose of the road, and then see someone going down river under them, get nervous, and think they need to take you out. But again, hopefully that sort of mentality would only be in place at least 3, 4 days in to the crisis at the earliest, or a few weeks in, and if I left early, could be a moot point. Seems again, EARLY key. 

I didn't much think about night travel, but that seemed to be a general consensus. Seems like it might be hard enough going down a river you've never been down to not accidentally branch off the river, much less travel at night, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do I guess. Definitely would be much safer as far as PEOPLE, but it seems one would be trading that threat for others, such as hitting things you can't see or going off route. But people may be the bigger threat. Great info so far. Thanks for clarifying. Keep it coming!


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

> I didn't much think about night travel, but that seemed to be a general consensus. Seems like it might be hard enough going down a river you've never been down to not accidentally branch off the river, much less travel at night, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do I guess. Definitely would be much safer as far as PEOPLE, but it seems one would be trading that threat for others, such as hitting things you can't see or going off route. But people may be the bigger threat. Great info so far. Thanks for clarifying. Keep it coming!


I do almost all my fishing from my Kayak at night. That being said there is more than enough light on a partial or full moon to navigate a water way in unless your pulling some major draft. Need more help get a fish finder with a gps or chart plotter and hook it up to a lawmower battery. I use a 8 amp hour battery on mine and it runs it for at least 10 hours constantly powered up. I recharge mine back up with a couple days on a 7 watt solar panel. Keep the back light on low and only power it up long enough to see which way to go when you come to a fork in the river. As slow as a Yak is I would only travel at night after about the first day or two I dont care how much fire power you got...you are a sitting duck as slow as Yaks move!!! 25-30 miles (on the lake or ocean) is a pretty long paddle on a yak unless you got some current in your favor and no head wind. You can do more than that if your in great shape but your gonna be seriously fatigued after a day or two of that. 25-30 miles seems like a short distance but when you consider you have to stop and eat and sleep in between paddling I bet its gonna be a long day for you. Sitting in a Yak for long periods of time will definitely make you beg to pull over, get out and stretch your legs and get some blood flowing south of the waist line again so you can get some feeling back in your butt and legs even in a high back cushy seat with a lot of support and a gel seat.

Not trying to discourage you cause Ill be honest a Yak weights heavily in my survival plans should SHTF. But I know first hand what I am up against and will be making short trips to catch fish or gather food from several guerilla gardens I have around the area. My replies are just things I have noted during the time I have spent Yaking, your mileage may vary...


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

The mileage between Kansas City and St. Charles along the Missouri is 340 miles they have a race in Aug of every year they cover it in under 88 hours. Missouri American Water MR340 « RiverMiles

I do not know about threats from humans but have had occasion to paddle faster from wildlife. That is me with the blue hat and wet pants.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

You should make the trip just for the fun of it. As far as provisions I go a week or two in the Boundary Waters Canoe area and we were three weeks on the Thelon in Canada. We went in the 'summer' so the first two days of June it was 1/4 mile visibility, 20 degrees F, and snowing . We got a good inches. Here is a picture of arriving the river ice out was just a day or two before we had to make a couple passes to land between chunks of ice the size of small cars. So lots of warm clothes and heavy tents.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Camel923 said:


> I do not see organized hunting/ seizures of water craft occurring immediately. You will have a small window of opportunity. Knowing where you are and what is around the corner is huge. For instance going by say Saint Louis would be best at night. Any kind of extended travel after an EMP or other catastrophic event has its risks. Foot, bicycle, horse, motor vehicle (not affected by emp) will all have choke points, blockades and desperate groups. The further in to said event the more desperate and more organized survivors become. Here is a thought: how will an EMP affecr barges and river traffic? That could through a twist into night travel as you may have to navigate wakes thrown by vessels. Would this be more difficult at night?


I completely agree with Camel and the others about the lack of concern immediately following an event... A week or two right after is still in the safe zone for the little you woud carry in a canoe or other boat, and would be a pittance compared to the bounty in suburbs and town at that point.

My initial comments were more towards a sustained use of waterways post SHTF as a safer alternative to roads or trails....


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

The road follows the river you say? Most people will be leaving on foot so you are correct that road will be very busy. Most of those people wont have the forethought to bring water with them so guess where they'll be when they get thirsty? Yep, your waterway.


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## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

I have done a good deal of inland water kayak touring(week or so at a time) and loved it. The biggest issue though is that kayaks were not ever intended for voyaging, they are day trippers by design. While they are well suited to minimalist touring, the better choice is a "Canadian kayak" AKA a canoe.
Canoes were often used by the Indians for long trips over water, carrying all there posseions.
There is one more evolution of man-powers PWC though; the ghenoe. A square backed, wide bottomed vessel much like a canoe. The are much more stable than a canoe or kayak, paddle easily(just like a canoe) and are much better suited for use with a motor.
If I were you, I would get a ghenoe, with a small, simple outboard, capable of getting the boat on plane,and an outrigger/sail kit. and if the balloon goes up and the motor craps out, your still good to go.
The areas between the boat and outriggers can be configured as storage.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Are you fully going down stream or no? If there is any movement up stream your going to need some power. If it's all down stream what's the flow like, does it change through out the year, and how fast will it take you?


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## OrneryOldBat (Feb 10, 2017)

I kayak a lot, but for long trips with lots of gear you can't beat a canoe. My favorite is the Prospector 17' Tuffstuff Expedition. Handles well on river, rapids and flat water. If you need more capacity, consider towing an inflatable behind. Check a couple of outfitters in your area and see what canoes you can rent to try out before buying.

You'll want good maps - and to identify rapids, and portages. Missouri River Water Trail Map (look under River Tools tab for upper river info. Most definitely do some practice trips. Obviously, pick gear and safety equip in darker, duller colors. For night runs, if you've got a working GPS, use it - it's easy to get disoriented at night on an unfamiliar river and run up on a hazard faster than you thought possible [voice of experience here].

Another river feature you may want to be very wary of are islands. Small, uninhabited ones would seem like a good option for lying low during the day, and they may be - but bugs and snakes aside, others may BO there first and be unfriendly.

I got my kayak out of storage yesterday - perfect day for river kayaking!


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## Sir Publius (Nov 5, 2016)

stowlin said:


> Are you fully going down stream or no? If there is any movement up stream your going to need some power. If it's all down stream what's the flow like, does it change through out the year, and how fast will it take you?


Yep. All down river. From what I read, the current is anywhere from a few miles an hour to 6 or so miles an hour, depending on the season...spring, because of the melt, being quicker. That of course is without paddling.

Also, there were some other comments about portages....the last portage between me and KC is just north of me. Not a single portage on that route. Also, few people mentioned canoe's. Again, I was scared that one could flip and lose everything. That was why I was thinking kayak. But I'll have to look into it.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

I dont think Canoes are all that much more prone to "turtling" than a Yak, Ive used both quiet a bit. A canoe would probably be more useful for what your attempting unless your going minimalist on gear to save weight. Keep things low and level on a canoe and tie it to your canoe and you should be fat dumb and happy in the end and be able to carry a lot more gear!


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I have a Jon boat. Aside from fishing, I have never attempted to travel that way. It does have a low draft, lots of space. I do not think it is as fast as a canoe and probably a real issue for a portage. Just curious on how a bass boat would fit your plan being as portages are not an issue? Those things are fast. Good thing I plan on bugging in.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

If you plan on using any type of light make sure it has a red lens. If you use a white light it will be like a beacon. The red lens will protect your night vision also. A headlamp would probably be more useful as it will keep your hands free.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

I think that a big problem would be, getting ambushed and killed for your stuff. The maniacs would be out in force and looking for whatever they could find. 
And they would kill you on general principle, and rifle through your belongings. Any dumb bell with a 30-30 could kill you, but keep in mind, I don't have any better ideas myself.
It would be treacherous no matter where you were.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

After more then a few days I'd agree with you. People on the water are pretty easy targets for those armed well on land. Hiking completely off trail / road adds a lot of minutes one's travels - I should say ads a lot of DAYS and each and every DAY brings new risks. Someone on foot is largely at the same risk. Many noted early in this thread that an early bug out is likely quite possible. Bugging out within just an hour or two of a SHTF event is likely going to mean one's traveling before the masses. And even when the movement of masses gets troublesome on the roads I suspect those traveling by river will have a little more time to make good on their effort. I don't know how fast the rivers the OP mentioned carry goods down stream. He did say he has to go down stream not up. Hence he can move pretty quickly with quite a bit less energy. That means he can be more astute to his surroundings and still move. If he can move 10 miles per hour he can reach his destination in 30-35 hours of travel time. That could be done in 3 days before the masses realize what a quagmire they are in. He could elevate his security my traveling at night, be prepared to deploy smoke and move to shore quickly. He probably should invest in night vision and prepare it for use after an EMP. I think with those advantages he gets to where he wants to go in 3 - 4 days and survives.



MisterMills357 said:


> I think that a big problem would be, getting ambushed and killed for your stuff. The maniacs would be out in force and looking for whatever they could find.
> And they would kill you on general principle, and rifle through your belongings. Any dumb bell with a 30-30 could kill you, but keep in mind, I don't have any better ideas myself.
> It would be treacherous no matter where you were.


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## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

Another thing to consider is; have you/can you fire a gun from your small vessel? I have shot my .38 from my kayak(scarring a bear) but I would not trust that to reach a distant(over 50 feet) shore...


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

One word ... banjos. But seriously, some yahoo will shoot you. Just because.


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## Sir Publius (Nov 5, 2016)

jim-henscheli said:


> Another thing to consider is; have you/can you fire a gun from your small vessel? I have shot my .38 from my kayak(scarring a bear) but I would not trust that to reach a distant(over 50 feet) shore...


Oh I have some firepower...but I don't think it would matter much. I would literally be a sitting duck if someone wanted to take some shots at me. If someone was gonna do that, I wouldn't even know where to shoot until it was too late in all likelihood. I could put down suppressive fire though, if I knew where the person was...combined with the current, that could give me a chance...but probably not. Again, seems like the key is an early decision to fly the coop, and maybe night travel.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

The river route for you is a good way to go. All the down side of being on the water as far as people also exist on roads X 1000 . I think you encounter fewer people on the river I know today it is that way and do not think it would change after an event. If I have to travel I think roads not rivers as does just about anyone else alive today. If people are moving around roads will be full. The river goes where you want to be as long as you know where to get off and how to get from the river to your parents you are good. 

I do think you should do this over a 3 or 4 day week end this spring or summer just for fun. I have a friend who has done the Missouri from KC to St Charles and am thinking about doing it this August.


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## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

Sir Publius said:


> Oh I have some firepower...but I don't think it would matter much. I would literally be a sitting duck if someone wanted to take some shots at me. If someone was gonna do that, I wouldn't even know where to shoot until it was too late in all likelihood. I could put down suppressive fire though, if I knew where the person was...combined with the current, that could give me a chance...but probably not. Again, seems like the key is an early decision to fly the coop, and maybe night travel.


Yes being out in the river is vulnerable, but you assume the river will be closely watched, as the roads will be, but YOU may have the element of surprise depending on the lay of things. I have snuck by people before wearing earth tones and hugging the far bank, it just depends. You may want to asses your intermediate range OFFENSIVE capabilities in case your presented with that opportunity and it's justified. Jm2c


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## arrowblazer71 (Jul 27, 2015)

Your 300 mile journey down the mighty mo will not take you 2 weeks. in fact they have a race every year called the MR340. It consists of kayaks and canoes paddling down river from Kansas city to Saint Louis 340 miles. The race has a maximum time limit or 86 hours to stay qualified. In 2016 the winner finished the race in 36 hours. I work at a power plant located on the river that monitors the depth, temp and speed of the river. You can travel 5-6 MPH mostly year round just floating. I wouldnt advise night travel unless you have decent lighting which would defeat the purpose of night travel. There are many wing dikes and rock islands about half way into your journey


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

arrowblazer71 said:


> Your 300 mile journey down the mighty mo will not take you 2 weeks. in fact they have a race every year called the MR340. It consists of kayaks and canoes paddling down river from Kansas city to Saint Louis 340 miles. The race has a maximum time limit or 86 hours to stay qualified. In 2016 the winner finished the race in 36 hours. I work at a power plant located on the river that monitors the depth, temp and speed of the river. You can travel 5-6 MPH mostly year round just floating. I wouldnt advise night travel unless you have decent lighting which would defeat the purpose of night travel. There are many wing dikes and rock islands about half way into your journey


This is the kind of intelligence one needs. Its easy for me in CA to assume his rivers are like ours and work the same way; and he could manage them so easily when its not the case.


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## Leon (Jan 30, 2012)

I have camped and traveled by canoe and they are far better than a kayak. I have seen homeless people living out of them I would imagine the scenario is not too farfetched. Keep in mind though if a situation ever got so desperate that people would try shooting you in the middle of a river knowing they might lose you and your stuff to the current chances are they would have got you way before you hit the river. Shooting canoes on a river is hardly a sound raiding strategy. Matter of fact I doubt it highly.


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## Sir Publius (Nov 5, 2016)

Leon said:


> I have camped and traveled by canoe and they are far better than a kayak. I have seen homeless people living out of them I would imagine the scenario is not too farfetched. Keep in mind though if a situation ever got so desperate that people would try shooting you in the middle of a river knowing they might lose you and your stuff to the current chances are they would have got you way before you hit the river. Shooting canoes on a river is hardly a sound raiding strategy. Matter of fact I doubt it highly.


Heard a number of people saying canoes are better. Haven't been on a canoe since I was a kid. And don't think I've ever kayaked. My ENTIRE thing with thinking a kayak would be better has to do with losing all of your stuff if you hit something or tip, as well as possibly your canoe. With the right kayak, they won't sink, some have bulkheads, others are sit-on-tops that can't really sink, and you can tie a fair amount of stuff to many of them, or enough I should say...especially if its only a 3-4 day trip. I don't doubt a canoe is as sturdy, carries lots of stuff, and is probably more comfortable....I'm just worried about tipping it and losing all my stuff, and the canoe. Course it is trip I doubt I would ever have to make. In good times, sounds pretty darn fun even. I really am looking forward to spring to get out on the water to see how sturdy some different types of kayak are and how they feel...and maybe a canoe.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

If you are not proficient with either canoe or kayak I'd suggest a small boat, zodiac even, or bass boat. Based on the things you have described I'd still suggest the canoe but you need to gain proficiency in its use and feel comfortable. Items you want to take with you should be minimal based on your description all you need are goods for the journey. Let's say you plan on traveling plenty the first day because the hoards won't know what's going on. Then days 2-5 you only travel short distances at late night early morning. Rations for seven days, weapon, night vision, clothing, first aid, comm and water filtration is the bulk of your needs. Hopefully your destination has all your goods. Tie them down and out them in water proof sealed plastic bags and with enough air they'll float if you tip over.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

RJAMES said:


> The river route for you is a good way to go. All the down side of being on the water as far as people also exist on roads X 1000 . I think you encounter fewer people on the river I know today it is that way and do not think it would change after an event. If I have to travel I think roads not rivers as does just about anyone else alive today. If people are moving around roads will be full. The river goes where you want to be as long as you know where to get off and how to get from the river to your parents you are good.
> 
> I do think you should do this over a 3 or 4 day week end this spring or summer just for fun. I have a friend who has done the Missouri from KC to St Charles and am thinking about doing it this August.


I'm not picking on your comment...its just a good place to insert my comments. Anyone who has been in a plane knows rivers may not be the fastest route. They snake back and forth often adding miles to each actual mile traveled in the direction you want to go.
Also the key difference to over land vice over water travel is your ability to respond to any threat.... in a canoe or kayak...your either paddling or shooting...can't do both unless you got a friend in their with you (Canoe). And on land you can sprint to cover, shoot back, get down...get up...duck...run. In the water you either paddle, shoot ,or swim.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

Sir Publius said:


> Heard a number of people saying canoes are better. Haven't been on a canoe since I was a kid. And don't think I've ever kayaked. My ENTIRE thing with thinking a kayak would be better has to do with losing all of your stuff if you hit something or tip, as well as possibly your canoe. With the right kayak, they won't sink, some have bulkheads, others are sit-on-tops that can't really sink, and you can tie a fair amount of stuff to many of them, or enough I should say...especially if its only a 3-4 day trip. I don't doubt a canoe is as sturdy, carries lots of stuff, and is probably more comfortable....I'm just worried about tipping it and losing all my stuff, and the canoe. Course it is trip I doubt I would ever have to make. In good times, sounds pretty darn fun even. I really am looking forward to spring to get out on the water to see how sturdy some different types of kayak are and how they feel...and maybe a canoe.


 Put all your gear and supplies in a pack designed for canoes / Kayaks They make water proof duffels, or put everything in plastic bags then in a pack. Tie everything in and if in heavy water/ rain throw a tarp over it. Messing around with Frisbee as a teenager, throwing it between canoes I managed to spill our canoe . Swam it to the shore emptied water and got back in, Nothing wet or lost. Summer time plenty warm and we died off quick enough. Winter we would have had to stop and set up a warming tent, change clothes .


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