# What would you have done?



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

https://bearingarms.com/erika-h/201...-notebook-and-things-take-an-unexpected-turn/

Two women abusing your daughter. They have knocked you aside and continue. Do you throw down?

As a male, I loose no matter what I choose. Lethal force, physical force, do nothing to immediately intervene. One thing for certain I am not going to let this continue. That means I am going to have consequences.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

I wouldn't have done what she did: draw my firearm. That's just nuts. It's not surprising it happened near Detroit.

Just walk away, it's a freakin' notebook!


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

It's kinda easy to calmly sit here and decide our best course, but we're not standing there watching two adult women attack our daughter either. Just walk away seems like the correct answer, however, I get the impression that growing up in Detroit, you don't allow people to run over you whatever the reason. 
Pulling a firearm certainly doesn't seem justified, but then, I wasn't there, it didn't happen to me.


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## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

Hold my baby!


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## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

The girl should have just left, I mean, I've never needed a notebook bad enough to let my hair get pulled, so I question the girls upbringing, but if it were me, and someone shoved me out of the way to put hands on a family member? Baton buddy. Or OC, it sounds as if it was really to close for a shoot anyway, so pulling her gun was just bravado. Bravada ?


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Either way .... my daughter or one of my two sons, I would not be flashing my infamous crooked grin. My heart beats fast and true when it come to protecting my family, and I have long realized it could land me in the realm of having to face serious consequences.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

It just goes to show how stressed out people are today. Over a freaking notebook? I mean come on, really? I see it all the time in my area, okay maybe not the hair pulling and gun pulling, but I get people honking their horns at me because I take the time to let some pedestrian cross the street. Or people freaking out because the line at the store is too long...Stuff like that.

They really need to take some time out, go for a hike or soak up the sun. Chill over a glass of wine and a good steak, ya know?


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

This looks to be quite simply an article minimizing the violence as "Hair pulling" while also emphasizing the impetus for the fight as a petty object. 

In reality you have two women attacking two women. irrespective of who started there was a fight. In a fight your life is at risk...period. The idea that you have to wait until it escalates to something obviously deadly is crap...A PUNCH CAN KILL, A FALL CAN KILL YOU, A WEAPON CAN APPEAR AT ANY TIME. 

You simply always have the right to use your 2A to defend your self. If the lady simply used it to stop the fight, then mission accomplished no harm. If she had used it to gain an advantage in the fight where she or her daughter persisted in the attack then its completely different.

I'm getting old....I have no hair to pull....but any physical action taken against me is considered a deadly threat by me....I will respond appropriately to that threat


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

the article is following the cop's lead with their plausible ''fight over a binder'' excuse - reality? - that 20 year old white gal ''dissed'' those older two blacks and the fight was on - I'm guessing she said something like ''EXCUSE me'' in a snide manner when they confronted each over that stupid binder - that all it takes - actually takes even less these days - a white being in a store they consider ''their's'' is going to get plenty of subtle hints like getting rammed by a cart or having your unattended filled cart taken - don't be too surprised if the store employees aren't too helpful either ....

if you really have a death wish - discipline a black kid in ear shot of Mama or the Baby Daddy ....


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

I would give one a wedgie.

I would pull another's pants down.

All while video recording and posting it on the internet.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Camel923 said:


> https://bearingarms.com/erika-h/201...-notebook-and-things-take-an-unexpected-turn/
> 
> Two women abusing your daughter. They have knocked you aside and continue. Do you throw down?
> 
> As a male, I loose no matter what I choose. Lethal force, physical force, do nothing to immediately intervene. One thing for certain I am not going to let this continue. That means I am going to have consequences.


First off, I don't go to the Walmarts so the question is moot. :vs_smirk:


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

There ya go. Turn the other cheek and let the sinners have it. Not worth getting anybody killed over...but then if Granny with the gun was placed in fear of her life or serioius bodily injury to herself or another...she would have been justified in popping a cap in Texas. Just depends on what was her mental state and having a smart lawyer to articulate the factioids. Whether the alleged perp might be found guilty of a crime..depends greatly on which county the future trial might be held. Guilty as sin in Dallas (unless you bees black) or get a citizens reward up in Hardemann County (unless you be black).


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

A weapon should be perfectly acceptable and legal to stop a fight from escalating. It should not have to only be pulled once it has progressed to a deadly confrontation. Her not shooting was an example of the positive aspect of having the gun and using it. No one was further injured.

I'm sorry, thats what self defense is....not just the actual shooting of the gun. The ability to get someone to stop before you get hurt is part of it.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Listen up folks .... Walmart sucks, tell all of your friends and stay away. YOU have a choice.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

If the issue was still at the "I want that thing you have, or else" stage, I'd tell my daughter to let her have it.
If I walked up on the situation, and somebody (anybody) had my daughter by the hair, fists start flying. 
Male, female, black, white, doesn't matter. You lay a hand on my child, I lay hands on you.

I won't need a gun, and you better pray I stop quick enough.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I'mma let my wife whip they ass, and if she starts losing, I'mma place $50 more on her and yell, "That Ho called you fat ass, I wouldn't take dat shit if I waz U baby doll...


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Hold my beer.....


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

I don't have a daughter.

But if I'm in Walmart, . . . and if I did, . . . she would be a young lady on par with the gentleman my son is.

Having said that, . . . I come around the corner, . . . somebody has my daughter's hair in their hand and is pulling it: they better be willing to say goodbye to that hand, cause I'm getting ready to break it off and shove it down their throat.

I have taken some serious insults, . . . walked away from provocations where I didn't have to, . . . and said I'm sorry, when there was NO need for it. 

But you mess with my kin folks, . . . and I know you are messing with them, . . . they don't deserve the stuff you are doing to them. Y'all just better stop. If ya don't, . . . I'll help ya stop, . . . gar-an-teed.

And I won't be needing my 1911 on my hip to do it most of the time, . . . but then again, . . . if that is what it takes, . . . so be it. Self defense in Ohio extends to my kinfolk and those in my charge.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## turbo6 (Jun 27, 2014)

It's really unknown as to who truly started the fight, the daughter is viewed as the victim here as she seemed to be on the receiving end of some punches and hair pulling. Although it's totally possible she could have escalated the situation verbally but who knows. 

I don't think it was really necessary to pull a gun unless the daughter was being beaten to a bloody pulp. Just too many unknowns here to say who is in the wrong with this. 

Though I will say, when mom drew the pistol it seemed like it ended pretty quickly. Doesn't appear she's being charged either. 

All over a notebook though. 

Back to school and Christmas is dangerous I guess.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

Old SF Guy said:


> A weapon should be perfectly acceptable and legal to stop a fight from escalating. It should not have to only be pulled once it has progressed to a deadly confrontation. Her not shooting was an example of the positive aspect of having the gun and using it. No one was further injured.
> 
> I'm sorry, thats what self defense is....not just the actual shooting of the gun. The ability to get someone to stop before you get hurt is part of it.


I disagree with pulling a gun to stop a fight . You walk away from a fight or confrontation. You only pull a gun when you have decided who is to die.

I see an argument and a person pulls a gun I am likely to put the person with the gun down .

The thing with guns you never know who is carrying. Best to let little shit go, Discuss rather than use your hands , if anything get very polite when voicing your displeasure in a situation.

Escalating a situation is never a good thing.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Old SF Guy said:


> A weapon should be perfectly acceptable and legal to stop a fight from escalating. It should not have to only be pulled once it has progressed to a deadly confrontation. Her not shooting was an example of the positive aspect of having the gun and using it. No one was further injured.
> 
> I'm sorry, thats what self defense is....not just the actual shooting of the gun. The ability to get someone to stop before you get hurt is part of it.


Good point. Thats why I try to carry a little small squirt of pepper spray when I go out. Gradual escalation on the continuum of force always looks good in court.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pep...=jF2sWfKZBoGMmwHp9Z_wAw#imgrc=V2PekqSTMRQddM:


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

RJAMES said:


> I see an argument and a person pulls a gun I am likely to put the person with the gun down .


You know guns are evil, right?


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

RJAMES said:


> I disagree with pulling a gun to stop a fight . You walk away from a fight or confrontation. You only pull a gun when you have decided who is to die.
> 
> I see an argument and a person pulls a gun I am likely to put the person with the gun down .
> 
> ...


IF IT CAN be let go, . . . you have a point. If you can walk away, . . . you do, . . .

But to state that the ONLY time a weapon comes out is when you are going to shoot someone, . . . you need to become one with the reality of the world in which we live.

There are some butt wipe people who just have to poke the bear, . . . some do it for spite, . . . some for "points" with their peers, . . . some just have an attitude problem. They will only quit poking when they see that one more poke has a high probability of their harm.

You really need to re-think the ignorance where you said: _"I see an argument and a person pulls a gun I am likely to put the person with the gun down ." _ Before you do that you best make sure the man with the gun is not a probation officer, a police officer, a marshal, or other person who has the legal authority to argue, question, scream, and shoot, . . . maybe even all at the same time.

Along comes johnny-come-lately RJAMES, . . . shoots the LEO, . . . might get a pat on the back from the perp, . . . and later from the inmates, . . . but you just might get a needle in your arm for your attitude.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

RJAMES said:


> I disagree with pulling a gun to stop a fight . You walk away from a fight or confrontation. You only pull a gun when you have decided who is to die.
> 
> I see an argument and a person pulls a gun I am likely to put the person with the gun down .
> 
> ...


I guess thats a major difference between us then.... I watch cops pull guns once someone is approaching them violently or someone is acting belligerently... THere is a reason they do that....its called self defense....They can do it and we can too as long as you are reasonably in fear of being harmed.

And stating that you're gonna shoot someone just because they pull a gun out during an altercation your not involved in, without finding out if they are preventing a robbery, mugging, or some other violence against them, makes you sound pretty ****in stupid...

Just saying bigdog....


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

When in nefarious surroundings I try to follow old Lynard Skinnards song about the guy with the gun....just give me three steps to the door mister.


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## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

Oh, yummy, a "what would you have done" thread. Posers, unite!


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Hey guys, Yammer is back!
Finally return from your Antifa training and spa vacation?


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Like @bigwheel I carry teargas with me everywhere. On my keys, one on my truck door panel and another on my instrument panel.

I love teargas. I have embraced the suck so many times it's cool now. It was fun getting tear gassed and then having to fight(simulated) afterwards. Great experience to have.

The fight was stupid but there is no way I would allow my child get beat on. As a man if a women is acting like a lady she has nothing to fear. If she is acting like a man I would defend me and mine until the threat is stopped and isn't getting back up.

Would I have pulled a gun? Not sure. If I would have pulled it, it would have been at the low ready and not directly in there face and very loud verbal commands would have been given.

Teargas would have been a guarantee.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Kauboy said:


> Hey guys, Yammer is back!
> Finally return from your Antifa training and spa vacation?


It's here to ruin another thread.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

MaterielGeneral said:


> Like @bigwheel I carry teargas with me everywhere. On my keys, one on my truck door panel and another on my instrument panel.
> 
> I love teargas. I have embraced the suck so many times it's cool now. It was fun getting tear gassed and then having to fight(simulated) afterwards. Great experience to have.
> 
> ...


Well tear gas...what we called Mace back in the good old days is different from oleo resin capsicum sprays for several different reasons. When somebody tells me they will know how to react when their life or the life of their friends are in danger..I can tell they are full of caca. It all boils down to muscle memory. Bad guys with potential to hurt folks must be popped. Thats the way I was trained. The military folks are trained to start first. Thats why they aint normal.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

turbo6 said:


> It's really unknown as to who truly started the fight, the daughter is viewed as the victim here as she seemed to be on the receiving end of some punches and hair pulling. Although it's totally possible she could have escalated the situation verbally but who knows.
> 
> I don't think it was really necessary to pull a gun unless the daughter was being beaten to a bloody pulp. Just too many unknowns here to say who is in the wrong with this.
> 
> ...


So you wait until the point its obvious she's a bloody pulp and then pull the gun? It defies logic....The gun is meant to keep you from bodily harm...why let any amount of bodily harm happen before you use it?

It's not just a death dealing weapon....Its there to de-escalate things in your favor.

The whole idea of de-escalation is purely before it comes to violence...You de-escalate rhetoric, tension, emotions....You don't de-escalate an ass whoopin with anything else but fear....

Thats what the Atomic bomb was in Japan...Thats what Star Wars was to Russia, and thats what that gun was to those two women.

De-escalate an ass whoopin???....ha....that only happens when the person beating your ass gets tired....Unless you got a gun then it happens in your favor.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

Old SF Guy said:


> I guess thats a major difference between us then.... I watch cops pull guns once someone is approaching them violently or someone is acting belligerently... THere is a reason they do that....its called self defense....They can do it and we can too as long as you are reasonably in fear of being harmed.
> 
> And stating that you're gonna shoot someone just because they pull a gun out during an altercation your not involved in, without finding out if they are preventing a robbery, mugging, or some other violence against them, makes you sound pretty ****in stupid...
> 
> Just saying bigdog....


Police in uniform. BIG DIFFERENCE . Folks arguing and no one is identified as police that person pulls a gun I am likely to put them down. You are changing the discussion to a mugging . The incident was an ongoing argument over who could purchase an item that quickly went out of control . No one ID themselves as police . Just because you get into an argument and it turns into a physical altercation does not give anyone the right to pull a gun .

Guns were invented for one thing - TO KILL you only take it out (hand gun) or point a rifle for one reason TO KILL.

With more people carrying every day being aware how others will react to your actions is needed.

Just as an argument escalates from words to gestures to pushing shoving then hitting , biting , kicking , then picking up objects to throw or hit the guy with . Gun will result in other Guns coming out.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

RJAMES said:


> Police in uniform. BIG DIFFERENCE . Folks arguing and no one is identified as police that person pulls a gun I am likely to put them down. You are changing the discussion to a mugging . The incident was an ongoing argument over who could purchase an item that quickly went out of control . No one ID themselves as police . Just because you get into an argument and it turns into a physical altercation does not give anyone the right to pull a gun .
> 
> Guns were invented for one thing - TO KILL you only take it out (hand gun) or point a rifle for one reason TO KILL.
> 
> ...


No there Cat....The situation was two women beating the shit out of another....not an ongoing argument. 
I have been a soldier since I was 18 and I carried weapons and used them for much more than killing. Your the kind of person who says a hammer is just for driving nails ain't you....You ever notice that claw thing in the back? you ever used it to align studs...you ever used it to knock out dry wall?

A gun is a tool.... To say it's only purpose is to kill is as narrow minded as thinking a ladies only use is to have kids.

By the way...other guns shouldn't come out if your first....unless you gotta deal with dumbass johnny come lately that doesn't understand dick and tries to up his bad ass points...

oh and yes ...a physical altercation gives you the RIGHT to pull a gun dipshit... ask Zimmerman.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

The idea that you only pull your weapon out to kill is a stupid a concept as anything I have ever heard. You should only pull the trigger to kill. But the gun is as much a deterrent as anything. How many cops do you see waiting til the last minute and then quick drawing and blasting away? Only the ones that are already being attacked or shot at. The rest are trained to have their gun out and at the low ready. WHY? A gun in your holster is useless within a certain distance.

You need to take a look at reality... You go play the game of one-uppance...I'mma trump you with my Wild Deuce as soon as you throw a card my way in anger...I'm not gonna wait until you pull a knife....I'm not gonna wait until you hit me....I'm gonna pull it out as soon as you begin to get aggressive towards me and I see no other way out of it.


Just the facts Cat....and if I remember...you were the Cat that said you'd shoot armed strangers on sight before and we had that discussion about right to open carry etc....

So arguing with you is sort like trying to teach a kitty cat to fetch....


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## turbo6 (Jun 27, 2014)

According to this article from 3 days ago, all 4 of the individuals involved could still face charges.

https://www.google.com/amp/heavy.co...book-fight-concealed-carry-permit/amp/?espv=1

[QUOTE ] 
Novi Police Department Det. Scott Baetens*told the Detroit Free Press"that police have reviewed video footage of the incident recorded on a witness' cell phone, and that they have submitted the case to the Oakland County Prosecutor's Office for review."

The loaded gun didn't have a round in the chamber, Fox2 reported, adding that Baetens wasn't sure which woman - if any - ended up with the school notebook that allegedly sparked the scuffle in the first place.

The women's names have not been released by police. According to WCRZ, "All four women could be facing charges for assault, which carries a 90-day sentence." That has yet to be determined, however.

[/QUOTE]

So it doesn't even appear the gun owner is even off the hook yet and it's being reviewed still.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that she was completely justified in doing this, but I certainly think it warrants a closer look at the very least.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

turbo6 said:


> "The *loaded gun* didn't have a round in the chamber, Fox2 reported, adding that Baetens wasn't sure which woman - if any - ended up with the school notebook that allegedly sparked the scuffle in the first place."


This kind of "journalism" (AKA fear-mongering) is the new normal.

In most self-defense situations where the police get involved, all people are considered suspect until the evidence reveals the truth. It is then up to the District Attorney to submit charges to a grand jury, if the law allows. I don't know Michigan law, but unless the CPL holder enjoys a "defense to prosecution" protection due to some statute, she gets treated fairly under the law until a grand jury decides no bill, or a trial jury acquits.
A damn shame, if you ask me. The gun ended the fight and everybody walked away. That sounds like proper use of legal force to me.


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