# Train As You Fight



## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

Wanted to hear from the community as far as people who actually realistically train/war-game their preps and how you do it. The focus of this topic I want to be weight considerations and choosing what is *your* perfect balance - do you go with gear to sustain yourself on, do you favor an offensive arsenal, do you have specialized TTPs you want to execute upon?

Here is a little tidbit on weight considerations as far as all that sexy gear goes that I wanted to bring up in the "best rifle for me" thread in the Rifles sub-section but it would've been out of scope from the OPs question.

Lets assume you have to bug out, or need to scavenge for parts, forage for food, go hunting or link up with other survivors - 3-5 day mission, have any of you, especially the non-veteran group, considered all that weight? I won't use an example of what I carried because most people aren't going to hump a heavy ass SCAR, M320, Mk11/M9, and extra ammo/mags plus a belt or 2 of linked 556 on top of all my radio/comms gear. Here is an example:

- Primary Weapon: you choose an AR-15, regular M4gery, with 6+1 mags - that's 210 rds of 556, maybe more in your bag? With a cheapo red dot and a foregrip/AFG plus your mags and a cleaning kit: *15-20 pounds*
- Secondary Weapon: Either a duty sized pistol or a Serbu shorty or maybe even a pistol caliber PDW like a AR-9 pistol or EVO. I will assume Pistol, so Glock 17 with 3+1 full mags of 9mm ball/JHPs, holster, laser or light *3-5 pounds* _more around 7-10 pounds if you chose a Serbu Shorty 12G or a PDW_
- Food: 3-5 days of food, either in MREs, freezer bags of jerky, maybe trail mix or some protein bars *2-3 pounds*
- Water: You're rucking out, and staying alert the whole time, plus the weather sucks and you're sucking so you figure you need a decent amount of water, two 2Qt canteens and a 5L Camelbak - that's about 9.5L of water = 9.5kg ~ 20lbs of water, not mentioning Life Straws/filters, purification tablets and the actual vessels *20-25 pounds*
- Cold weather/wet weather gear - you need to stay dry, so you have a parka, poncho or some waders to go along with your gear. Plus hat, gloves, or maybe a wind-breaking cover/tarp for your lean-to or to cross a river *5-10 pounds*
- Sleeping Gear - you might have a bedroll, a sleeping bag of varying configurations, some prepared stakes/lines and maybe that tarp, and of course some cans on a line so you have a rudimentary EWS *5-15 pounds*
- First-Aid/Survival Gear - at the minimum you have a hatchet/E-tool, a multitool, a knife or 2, fire starter kit if you're not good by hand (I use one - screw your pride, you need a fire fast), then you have an aid bag/IFAK with some gauze, tape, shears, splint, cravats, ACE wraps, bandages - maybe you know your stuff and have petroleum dressings for burns, antispetics/antibacterial salves/rubs, saline lock kits and fluids/IV gear as well? *10-15 pounds*
- Communications - you bring a flare gun, maybe chem lights, VS panels to mark areas, or maybe you have a handheld VHF/UHF radio, then spare batteries, or you're old school and have a signaling mirror, maybe signal flags, and a flashlight or 2 *5-10 pounds*
- Armor - some may have a helmet, that's 1-3 pounds right there. A plate carrier to hold your mags, aid bag and canteens with soft armor is about 2-4 pounds in material on its own, now add plates? *5-20 pounds*
- Ancillary - your compass, maps, protractor, keepsakes, sanitary items, change of socks/drawers, and your actual pack also weigh something *5-10 pounds*

At bear minimum with the least amount of all that stuff you are looking at 75-80 pounds, damn near 150 pounds if you have a big 5-day ruck on with armor, helmet, crazy comms packages, extra ammo/weapons/food/water - get where I am going? Even if you just wanted to forage and only brought a days worth of supplies - that is still 35 pounds of gear you have on.

Do any of you ever put all that stuff on the see how it feels? Ever hump it a few miles? Go off-road and practice your skills - ruck out 6-10 miles in brush, try to navigate, then eat out in the field, make a shelter/fire, and successfully egress? Practice your first aid/shooting skills under stress and after you are hungry, tired and angry?

The point I am trying to make is that practicing is always important. But it is the culmination exercises that really make or break you - you can be an expert woodsman and survivalist, or great and sustaining yourself on a little bit of food and water - but if you can't carry it or move anymore than a mile or 2 a day you are going to die.

And let's say you have worked out carrying all of that, and you identify your shortcomings - where do you begin to pare off pounds? Do you ditch the radios? Do you carry less food or water? Do you ditch the armor, ditch the extra weapon/ammo? Go without cold/wet weather gear? How does your internal process work?

I know we all want to stay within our strong point eating canned tomatoes and deer jerky for a year or 2, but that may not always work we always have to be prepared for anything, the rules of the game can and will always change, your prepper paradise gets knocked over by a company sized element of raiders who didn't prep but want your stuff - what's your move?

Also, if anyone else has other tips, strategies and insight to prepping for all the weight, and having a critical thinking/decision making process be sure to share it as well. Lord knows I can always think of a better way to do things


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

One long post there. I try to prep for all possible events and have plans depending on what occurs. Train as you fight as a philosophy is a good one no doubt. Learning and knowing your limitations is important as well.


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

RedLion said:


> One long post there. I try to prep for all possible events and have plans depending on what occurs. Train as you fight as a philosophy is a good one no doubt. Learning and knowing your limitations is important as well.


I think having the bearing and honesty to identify weaknesses and abide by limitations is the hardest thing to do - no one wants to hear/tell themselves they are sucking bad.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

I'm currently using the local rent-a-sniper program to protect against company sized elements.

Other than that, I plan to do all I can to avoid force on force action unless defending Fort David. So, foraging/scouting for me would usually be short range, no plan for forward resupply, and light equipment. I'm old, fat, bitchy, and have no desire to play space marine (40k reference. You get it, or don't.)
So, foraging with low probability of contact, probably rimfire rifle and combat handgun, minimal kit, quart of water with filter. Maybe a bladder instead. But room in the pack to bring back what was foraged.
High contact probability but foraging means a centerfire rifle, rimfire handgun.
Scouting for contact? Ar with 120 rounds, 9mm with 45 rounds, canteen, ifak, field knife, on LBE, complimented by my best PF Fliers, because I will employ a tactical retrograde quick, fast, and in a hurry. Preferably without anything other than visual contact on my part. Gunfire hurts my sensitive ears, you know.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

AnotherSOFSurvivor said:


> I think having the bearing and honesty to identify weaknesses and abide by limitations is the hardest thing to do - no one wants to hear/tell themselves they are sucking bad.


Like many other things in life, you can be open to honest feedback or not. We would have a much lessened need to even put so much emphasis on preparation if the sheeple capable and willing to receive honest information. I seem to learn well by making mistakes. I like to think that I am very open to feedback from those better in the know.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

I routinely train with a 50 lb (dry) pack. My actual gear (72 hr) weighs about 30-35 lbs. Every few weeks I do a 10-12 mile, usually on top of my regular workout. 

I try to make use of my hikes by taking note of landmarks that could be helpful navigating at night if needed. I take note of what floods and when. The swamp is no place for a rookie.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Wanted to hear from the community as far as people who actually realistically train/war-game their preps and how you do it. The focus of this topic I want to be weight considerations and choosing what is your perfect balance - do you go with gear to sustain yourself on, do you favor an offensive arsenal, do you have specialized TTPs you want to execute upon?

Here is a little tidbit on weight considerations as far as all that sexy gear goes that I wanted to bring up in the "best rifle for me" thread in the Rifles sub-section but it would've been out of scope from the OPs question.

Lets assume you have to bug out, or need to scavenge for parts, forage for food, go hunting or link up with other survivors - 3-5 day mission, have any of you, especially the non-veteran group, considered all that weight? I won't use an example of what I carried because most people aren't going to hump a heavy ass SCAR, M320, Mk11/M9, and extra ammo/mags plus a belt or 2 of linked 556 on top of all my radio/comms gear. Here is an example:

- Primary Weapon: you choose an AR-15, regular M4gery, with 6+1 mags - that's 210 rds of 556, maybe more in your bag? With a cheapo red dot and a foregrip/AFG plus your mags and a cleaning kit: 15-20 pounds
- Secondary Weapon: Either a duty sized pistol or a Serbu shorty or maybe even a pistol caliber PDW like a AR-9 pistol or EVO. I will assume Pistol, so Glock 17 with 3+1 full mags of 9mm ball/JHPs, holster, laser or light 3-5 pounds more around 7-10 pounds if you chose a Serbu Shorty 12G or a PDW
- Food: 3-5 days of food, either in MREs, freezer bags of jerky, maybe trail mix or some protein bars 2-3 pounds
- Water: You're rucking out, and staying alert the whole time, plus the weather sucks and you're sucking so you figure you need a decent amount of water, two 2Qt canteens and a 5L Camelbak - that's about 9.5L of water = 9.5kg ~ 20lbs of water, not mentioning Life Straws/filters, purification tablets and the actual vessels 20-25 pounds
- Cold weather/wet weather gear - you need to stay dry, so you have a parka, poncho or some waders to go along with your gear. Plus hat, gloves, or maybe a wind-breaking cover/tarp for your lean-to or to cross a river 5-10 pounds
- Sleeping Gear - you might have a bedroll, a sleeping bag of varying configurations, some prepared stakes/lines and maybe that tarp, and of course some cans on a line so you have a rudimentary EWS 5-15 pounds
- First-Aid/Survival Gear - at the minimum you have a hatchet/E-tool, a multitool, a knife or 2, fire starter kit if you're not good by hand (I use one - screw your pride, you need a fire fast), then you have an aid bag/IFAK with some gauze, tape, shears, splint, cravats, ACE wraps, bandages - maybe you know your stuff and have petroleum dressings for burns, antispetics/antibacterial salves/rubs, saline lock kits and fluids/IV gear as well? 10-15 pounds
- Communications - you bring a flare gun, maybe chem lights, VS panels to mark areas, or maybe you have a handheld VHF/UHF radio, then spare batteries, or you're old school and have a signaling mirror, maybe signal flags, and a flashlight or 2 5-10 pounds
- Armor - some may have a helmet, that's 1-3 pounds right there. A plate carrier to hold your mags, aid bag and canteens with soft armor is about 2-4 pounds in material on its own, now add plates? 5-20 pounds
- Ancillary - your compass, maps, protractor, keepsakes, sanitary items, change of socks/drawers, and your actual pack also weigh something 5-10 pounds

At bear minimum with the least amount of all that stuff you are looking at 75-80 pounds, damn near 150 pounds if you have a big 5-day ruck on with armor, helmet, crazy comms packages, extra ammo/weapons/food/water - get where I am going? Even if you just wanted to forage and only brought a days worth of supplies - that is still 35 pounds of gear you have on.

Man that weight adds up quicker than a big dawg dont it! I love it when I see all of these detailed list of everything under the sun, all I can think about is "Do you have any idea how much all this crap weighs? You doo realize there is a difference in a couple laps around the back yard and humping it over hill and dale, right? Talk about a reality check!!! Now try to manuver with all that crap on while being shot at with simunitions or paintball guns from people who make a living shootng...yeah, there is you another reality check!!!

Do any of you ever put all that stuff on the see how it feels? Ever hump it a few miles? Go off-road and practice your skills - ruck out 6-10 miles in brush, try to navigate, then eat out in the field, make a shelter/fire, and successfully egress? Practice your first aid/shooting skills under stress and after you are hungry, tired and angry?

Yes I do from time to time as I am always modifying my pack to get the weight down and still be able to cope. It aint fun it aint easy but its something you gotta do! The first time you do, its probably gonna send you back to the drawing board and figure out what you can ditch. Plus whats the use in having gear that you havent tested?

The point I am trying to make is that practicing is always important. But it is the culmination exercises that really make or break you - you can be an expert woodsman and survivalist, or great and sustaining yourself on a little bit of food and water - but if you can't carry it or move anymore than a mile or 2 a day you are going to die.

And let's say you have worked out carrying all of that, and you identify your shortcomings - where do you begin to pare off pounds? Do you ditch the radios? Do you carry less food or water? Do you ditch the armor, ditch the extra weapon/ammo? Go without cold/wet weather gear? How does your internal process work?

Great points all!

I know we all want to stay within our strong point eating canned tomatoes and deer jerky for a year or 2, but that may not always work we always have to be prepared for anything, the rules of the game can and will always change, your prepper paradise gets knocked over by a company sized element of raiders who didn't prep but want your stuff - what's your move?

Looking forward to some replies on this and will probably revisit and reply more.


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## Targetshooter (Dec 4, 2015)

If you and let say two other people are going out to look for food , supplies , ect. you are not going to carry a ton of stuff with you , you only carry the min. of what you need at that time , anyone knows that . If you go out scouting for things your not going to bring the RV with you ,, are you . the title of your post said it all " train as you fight " you only carry what you need . the most I would carry would be a two supply to get by with , you are out looking for supplies , if you find them then you will have what you need to stay out longer or have plenty to head back to your BOL .


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## beach23bum (Jan 27, 2015)

Train As You Fight

*For myself I do mini bug outs. I take my pack and go box of outfitting and leave town. Cell turned off. I do can it, in case I was to need it but I have not as of yet. 
I usually go to a national park that no one normally goes too or find a small(under 8 site) campground. use that as home base and make daily trips out of there working up to 20 plus miles a day, right now I'm at 5 -7 with full pack. I don't normally carry a long gun, sometimes people freak out when seeing it. I just carry a glock 23 in a drop down holster. 
I have trac bar's and a lot of camping style food I pack so the only thing I have to look for is water. I carry three different ways of getting safe drinking water.

my pack avg weight is 40 to 50 lbs.

* 
Do any of you ever put all that stuff on the see how it feels? Ever hump it a few miles? Go off-road and practice your skills - ruck out 6-10 miles in brush, try to navigate, then eat out in the field, make a shelter/fire, and successfully egress? Practice your first aid/shooting skills under stress and after you are hungry, tired and angry?

*yes, a mix of them. I've done a lot of clearing house drills with live actors. once to twice a week I throw on my pack and leave the house and walk, you must make sure the all your gear fits your movement*\

*I tell people that when I sell them a gun, find one the fits them. don't just buy the with the biggest bullet or all gold plated gun.*

And let's say you have worked out carrying all of that, and you identify your shortcomings - where do you begin to pare off pounds? Do you ditch the radios? Do you carry less food or water? Do you ditch the armor, ditch the extra weapon/ammo? Go without cold/wet weather gear? How does your internal process work?

*currently I'm thinking about the Mule pack or a bike and trailer. 
*


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I am still playing with bugout gear. I plan on bugging in. I have land, water shelter, fruit trees, game. That is the primary strategy around my prepping. The author of this post is correct in being proactive with training with your gear. So far what I have assembled is for avoiding conflict. Lack of Armour. Not much com gear. Small cart with all terrain wheels, trail navigatable for a few basic tools and homesteading start. understanding that it has to be light and abandoned if necessary. Showing up somewhere with nothing to start over with is not the best plan even though movement may be slowed slightly.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm big on training and practice. When the adrenaline kicks in its a different story. Or so I've been told by many who have seen the elephant. jmo.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

This guy posts a lot like mllr18 or what ever. changes the goal post almost every paragraph.


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

1skrewsloose said:


> This guy posts a lot like mllr18 or what ever. changes the goal post almost every paragraph.


Typing on a smart phone isnt the best word processing program hard to organize my thoughts - sorry it confused you

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## New guy 101 (Dec 17, 2014)

My best advice....Use a pack (Ruck) that limits how much you can put into it. It makes you choose wiser the things you really need, vice what you think you want. Big packs beg to be filled....and we tend to listen to them.

If you have a GHB that weighs more than 20 lbs to 30 lbs your really hurting yourself and slowing how fast you get home.

A BOB that weights more than 50-60 lbs is gonna break you down over time. I suggest if you need that much, rig up a little towing wagon of sorts.

If your in arid terrain carrying water with you is important. If you live near available water ways, having the ability to clean and replace the a smaller guantity is better more frequently is better.

If you have a pack and sleeping bag that weighs ten pounds.....get a new pack and sleeping bag.

and yes...walk around with what you have packed so you know if your ruck is working for you. Also go out and use your stuff so you know what to pack and how to pack it.

Finally, A one size fits all shoe really sucks for anyone without the largest sized foot it was made for (there is my metaphor)....same with rucks,,,,same with what to stuff in them.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

I have learned this: I have a sandpiper bug out bag. It holds a lot. I use it as a ghb and travel bag. Meaning, I can ditch the extra clothes and replace with food. The bag gets lighter by the day when camping. Normally weighs out about 22 pounds for my weekly load on the road. But I also carry a bail out bag that rides on my hip. I can wear it, and my backpack at the same time with relative comfort. The hip bag carries enough that if necessary I can survive a couple days easily out of it alone. It weighs around 10 pounds, depending on which handgun is in it. Anytime I travel outside my normal AO that bag 
goes with me. And yes, I do walk around with them when we go on walking trips, especially the hip bag.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Coastie dad said:


> I have learned this: I have a sandpiper bug out bag. It holds a lot. I use it as a ghb and travel bag. Meaning, I can ditch the extra clothes and replace with food. The bag gets lighter by the day when camping. Normally weighs out about 22 pounds for my weekly load on the road. But I also carry a bail out bag that rides on my hip. I can wear it, and my backpack at the same time with relative comfort. The hip bag carries enough that if necessary I can survive a couple days easily out of it alone. It weighs around 10 pounds, depending on which handgun is in it. Anytime I travel outside my normal AO that bag
> goes with me. And yes, I do walk around with them when we go on walking trips, especially the hip bag.


Are you calling a fanny pack a " hip bag ". Have a link or a pic ?


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

1skrewsloose said:


> This guy posts a lot like mllr18 or what ever. changes the goal post almost every paragraph.


I disagree. ml118lr thought everything was about snipers and talked down to people. Trying to follow his train of thinking was nearly impossible.

At least I can follow what AnotherSOFSurvivor is thinking AND it makes sense.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Operator6 said:


> Are you calling a fanny pack a " hip bag ". Have a link or a pic ?


I'll try to get you a picture in a few. But it's a Red Rock gear Hipster. On amazon.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

OK. Someone smart rotate that for me. It shows up correctly in my documents, but is sideways in the post.:vs_mad:


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Coastie dad said:


> View attachment 24114
> 
> 
> OK. Someone smart rotate that for me. It shows up correctly in my documents, but is sideways in the post.:vs_mad:


The same thing happened to me when I posted my garden pics. I fiddled with them a long time but no matter which way I turned them, they all came out sideways.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

OK, 6, I guess you can tell by the liter nalgene bottle about how big the bag is. One shoulder strap, and a secondary loop on the back to attach to your belt if so desired for stability. But using the belt loop makes it very difficult to access the weapon.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

AnotherSOFSurvivor said:


> Wanted to hear from the community as far as people who actually realistically train/war-game their preps and how you do it. The focus of this topic I want to be weight considerations and choosing what is *your* perfect balance - do you go with gear to sustain yourself on, do you favor an offensive arsenal, do you have specialized TTPs you want to execute upon?
> 
> Here is a little tidbit on weight considerations as far as all that sexy gear goes that I wanted to bring up in the "best rifle for me" thread in the Rifles sub-section but it would've been out of scope from the OPs question.
> 
> ...


We plan on defensive, not looking to take ground, only hold it so this is a mute point and wasted topic unless you are a Rambo looking to conquer new territory.


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

John Galt said:


> We plan on defensive, not looking to take ground, only hold it so this is a mute point and wasted topic unless you are a Rambo looking to conquer new territory.


Not everyone plans defensively. And while we all may prep defensively there will come a time where you will need to walk around somewhere.

This topic isnt wasted, sorry you feel that way - weight considerations and training with your equipment is still an important point which was the scope of this topic.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

John Galt said:


> We plan on defensive, not looking to take ground, only hold it so this is a mute point and wasted topic unless you are a Rambo looking to conquer new territory.


Not everyone plans defensively. And while we all may prep defensively there will come a time where you will need to walk around somewhere.

This topic isnt wasted, sorry you feel that way - weight considerations and training with your equipment is still an important point which was the scope of this topic. If you dont feel training is necessary and you have it all figured out why not tell us your trade secrets?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

I hope reading those weights opened some eyes. 
Light infantry, ain't.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

AnotherSOFSurvivor said:


> Typing on a smart phone isnt the best word processing program hard to organize my thoughts - sorry it confused you
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


My bad! Thought he had came back under another name.  Peace.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I am preparing to defend, at least in the initial stages. Based on where I currently live I may eventually be forced to move so I do work with my bags, all of them, ( BOB's and GHB's ) I am constantly modifying contents and managing the weights. My age, knees, and back won't allow me to hit the trail for a 25 mile hike in full pack, I am not 21 and I know better, so I am planning on a cart if the vehicles are not an option. I am prepared to bug out but it's not by any means my first option.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

inceptor said:


> The same thing happened to me when I posted my garden pics. I fiddled with them a long time but no matter which way I turned them, they all came out sideways.


I stopped posting pics as they were sideways. I cant see that until after they post.


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

General commo FYI for rotated pics: the pictures native orientation when it was taken is saved in an EXIF tag. Windows has some programs to do it, sometimes changing pixel orientation and doing a resize after it will change the EXIF tag. Those of us on *Nix machines can fix it with GIMP or similar

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

SOFsurvivor is having a religious experience! He's speaking in tongues!

I have NO flipping idea what he just said......
Me take picture, it lookey fine. Me postey on forum, it look like potty.
Magic picture machine no workey right. Magic sprites inside must be rebelling! Me not give them sparky juice from wall....that starvey them into submission...little bazzurdz......


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

AnotherSOFSurvivor said:


> General commo FYI for rotated pics: the pictures native orientation when it was taken is saved in an EXIF tag. Windows has some programs to do it, sometimes changing pixel orientation and doing a resize after it will change the EXIF tag. Those of us on *Nix machines can fix it with GIMP or similar
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


OK it sounds like I need me on of them there Nix machines. You got a spare?


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

A Watchman said:


> OK it sounds like I need me on of the there Nix machines. You got a spare?


Linux, its free. I would recommend anyone to use them though as their main OS.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## New guy 101 (Dec 17, 2014)

Coastie dad said:


> View attachment 24114
> 
> 
> OK. Someone smart rotate that for me. It shows up correctly in my documents, but is sideways in the post.:vs_mad:


its a fanny pack....your gay.... lol... jk


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## New guy 101 (Dec 17, 2014)

AnotherSOFSurvivor said:


> Linux, its free. I would recommend anyone to use them though as their main OS.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


are you near bragg?


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## New guy 101 (Dec 17, 2014)

AnotherSOFSurvivor said:


> Not everyone plans defensively. And while we all may prep defensively there will come a time where you will need to walk around somewhere.
> 
> This topic isnt wasted, sorry you feel that way - weight considerations and training with your equipment is still an important point which was the scope of this topic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


the best defense is a good offense.....just saying.....


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

New guy 101 said:


> are you near bragg?


Oh hell no. Im in central ohio

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

SOF, your original post is excellent, and is the main argument why in a REAL SHTF, 90% of the population won't survive. A modern army, with all its resources and excellent equipment, struggles to keep men healthy in the field who are out of contact with supply for more than a few days.


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## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

We have our Ass Pouches (Coastie I like that Red Rock Hipster Bag), our GHBs, our BOBs and our INCHs (I'm Never Coming Home) refugee setup . Now we are working on a BOT (Bug out trailer) next. After that a RV and another truck to pull it.

We are generally 2000 miles from our Primary BOL. We are not getting there on foot. Because of our situation, we have to cover several scenarios including Bugging In at our Secondary BOL. Regardless we do not train enough with our bags. Thanks for bring it up.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

New guy 101 said:


> its a fanny pack....your gay.... lol... jk


Iz not. It's an across the shoulder bag. Not a fanny pack.

So there, you big bully...:vs_unimpressed:


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Maol9 said:


> We have our Ass Pouches (Coastie I like that Red Rock Hipster Bag), our GHBs, our BOBs and our INCHs (I'm Never Coming Home) refugee setup . Now we are working on a BOT (Bug out trailer) next. After that a RV and another truck to pull it.
> 
> We are generally 2000 miles from our Primary BOL. We are not getting there on foot. Because of our situation, we have to cover several scenarios including Bugging In at our Secondary BOL. Regardless we do not train enough with our bags. Thanks for bring it up.


If my BOL were 2000 miles away getting there on foot would be option zero. Even if I were Michael Phelps.


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## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

csi-tech said:


> If my BOL were 2000 miles away getting there on foot would be option zero. Even if I were Michael Phelps.


OK we aren't swimming either! LOL


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I have a bug out plan.... run around screaming for the kids to get packed and toss as much food into the back of the vehicle as possible...lets face it- if I am bugging out the UN trucks are already rolling down the highway

Stay in place - DUDE, I got a ton of food and water and other stuff... I will be warm in the winter and well feed in the summer

carrying a pack, I am too tired and old to carry a pack... I own a vehicle though. I also have a trailer for my lawn mower




all that said, I trust the big Guy upstairs


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## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> I have a bug out plan.... run around screaming for the kids to get packed and toss as much food into the back of the vehicle as possible...lets face it- if I am bugging out the UN trucks are already rolling down the highway
> 
> Stay in place - DUDE, I got a ton of food and water and other stuff... I will be warm in the winter and well feed in the summer
> 
> ...


Crap, I forgot the about the lawnmower! Dang it! We have got to roll! Leave it! Let's GO!!! GO GO!!!

Like I said so many scenarios. If we can we are headed home though. It depends on the cards we are dealt. Yes in the end it is up to the Guy with the big 'G' on his shirt...


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

All you people who live in a metropolitan area who don't have a specific pre-stocked bugout location outside the city please stay at home. People in the countryside will have enough problems without chasing you off their property. And you will be chased off. Even the friendly folks out in the countryside can figure out what will happen to their families and neighbors' families if they allow you to eat their food like locusts.

People in rural areas know what it means to cull the herd and why it is necessary. Don't have enough grass, cull the herd, Got a sick animal, cull the herd. Vermin getting the chickens, sit out at night with a rifle and cull the vermin. Don't become the vermin.


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## Maol9 (Mar 20, 2015)

John Galt said:


> All you people who live in a metropolitan area who don't have a specific pre-stocked bugout location outside the city please stay at home. People in the countryside will have enough problems without chasing you off their property. And you will be chased off. Even the friendly folks out in the countryside can figure out what will happen to their families and neighbors' families if they allow you to eat their food like locusts.
> 
> People in rural areas know what it means to cull the herd and why it is necessary. Don't have enough grass, cull the herd, Got a sick animal, cull the herd. Vermin getting the chickens, sit out at night with a rifle and cull the vermin. Don't become the vermin.


JG, We have a semi pre-stocked BOL with my youngest Son currently in charge. When we all get there I just want to bring everything I can. Exactly the same as my oldest and my nephews and their parents will do. We know the land well. The community knows us to to be an asset and it will welcome us home should that day come. Wyoming is very welcoming and understanding to its native children who have had to leave to pay the bills. I know I am not the only one on this forum, they will attest that what I say is true.

By the way my Father was ruthless with regards to culling. Those are lessons I learned early and won't ever forget. Ever. I truly got it. Example:

One time we were walking down our local main street together and we passed the best Vet in town whom he touched his hat to. The Vet had a quizzical look on his face as he recognized me but not my Father.

My Dad said "He knew you". I said 'yep he's the one that castrated Freckles.' He stopped and looked me in the eye. "How much was it?" I told him, and he asked looking off from me to others he knew and smiled as they passed by, "What happened?" 'Well I sold him for 'Rough Stock' and they sold him to the Basks 'cause he was a killer. But you know all that' 'Yep and I know the Basks ended up eating him to get their money back.' Then looking me dead in the eye he said 'So tell me where you [email protected]^ked up?' I looked at him a little slack jawed I am sure; but I knew better than to stick any more in the chopper and shut up. He started walking on down the street again touching his hat again to those he knew with a smile and a nod. Then finally after a few minutes he said 'That Freckles is the reason that Vet knew you, but he was wonderin' why he didn't know me. Well that's the way it's gonna to stay'.

My Father killed everything that didn't work. Needed to pull a calf? We did it and the heifer and calf went market if they lived, if they didn't we ate them. A heifer came back from summer pasture without her calf? Gone. Flies bothered an animal? Gone to market, because the flies knew something we didn't. Old Bull couldn't get 'er done? He killed it front of the new one. I asked him why he did that. He said 'I am just establishing a new relationship.' Strangely when ole Gold Duster his favorite, died he cried like a baby and he wasn't right for three days.

We'll get home.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

AnotherSOFSurvivor said:


> Wanted to hear from the community as far as people who actually realistically train/war-game their preps and how you do it. The focus of this topic I want to be weight considerations and choosing what is *your* perfect balance - do you go with gear to sustain yourself on, do you favor an offensive arsenal, do you have specialized TTPs you want to execute upon?
> 
> Here is a little tidbit on weight considerations as far as all that sexy gear goes that I wanted to bring up in the "best rifle for me" thread in the Rifles sub-section but it would've been out of scope from the OPs question.
> 
> ...


Nice post and very true. However, this reality pretty much says that for the average middle aged person survival will be very difficult. And I agree, that this is reality folks. So to overcome this problem, we need to prepare a solution for it before the problem faces us. I believe the best solution will be to form a group of people with the same problems and in the same situations. People who need to bug out and could not hump a 150 pack should bug out in a group. Several men walking point with just their weapons, ammo ,radio and armor leading the way while another group of men hauling supplies in a cart.

Young men can travel in 150 pound pack for about 15 to 20 miles a day, give or take... But older people would be lucky to do 8 miles in one day. But in groups were their gear is in a cart and being pushed by several people, it would be much easier. Plus, point men and the cart/ supply carriers can rotate duties. Hauling all your gear and doing security for yourself will bevery difficult if you are old and out of shape.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

6811 said:


> Nice post and very true. However, this reality pretty much says that for the average middle aged person survival will be very difficult. And I agree, that this is reality folks. So to overcome this problem, we need to prepare a solution for it before the problem faces us. I believe the best solution will be to form a group of people with the same problems and in the same situations. People who need to bug out and could not hump a 150 pack should bug out in a group. Several men walking point with just their weapons, ammo ,radio and armor leading the way while another group of men hauling supplies in a cart.
> 
> Young men can travel in 150 pound pack for about 15 to 20 miles a day, give or take... But older people would be lucky to do 8 miles in one day. But in groups were their gear is in a cart and being pushed by several people, it would be much easier. Plus, point men and the cart/ supply carriers can rotate duties. Hauling all your gear and doing security for yourself will bevery difficult if you are old and out of shape.


My thoughts exactly. Prepare for reality. I am in pretty good shape for an old 56 year old guy who lived a little to hard. But the reality is I am not 21 so I won't be humping 25 miles in full pack, I am not playing 4 quarters of football nor going 15 rounds in the ring anymore. reality dictates you have a group, and a solid plan to be able to survive. Be prepared to improvise but always be prepared and have a plan A, B, C, etc.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> I am in pretty good shape for an old 56 year old guy who lived a little to hard. But the reality is I am not 21 so I won't be humping 25 miles in full pack, I am not playing 4 quarters of football nor going 15 rounds in the ring anymore. reality dictates you have a group, and a solid plan to be able to survive. Be prepared to improvise but always be prepared and have a plan A, B, C, etc.


I just turned 54, I have a bad back and knees that feel like they have sand in them after a long day... but I can shot straight and work hard... even it if means hurting the next day. I plan on working smart not hard.. and I honestly do not see me needing a pack to bug out... worse case I hook the trailer up to the riding mower and make a slow get away

speaking of riding mowers


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

If mobility wasn't such a fantastic asset, the military wouldn't put so much emphasis toward being mobile. 

That's how the cookie crumbles.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Operator6 said:


> If mobility wasn't such a fantastic asset, the military wouldn't put so much emphasis toward being mobile.
> 
> That's how the cookie crumbles.


you do realize that the military has permanent installations,

Look at the Marine Corps Mission - seize ,hold, and defend advanced bases for the U.S. Navy

defending requires fixed positions.

Mobility is wonderful until you run into an strong and determine force that is determined to stay put...

I can not carry a 70lbs pack 20 miles anymore (unless it is in the abck of my pickup)... but I can fireproof and barricade my area, and I can cook up a mean spaghetti from my supplies.
I have too many food supplies to carry them all and frankly if i can not use my car then i am guess others are not using their to get to me.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> you do realize that the military has permanent installations,
> 
> Look at the Marine Corps Mission - seize ,hold, and defend advanced bases for the U.S. Navy
> 
> ...


Sure I realize they have permanent installations but they have the ability to hold it. A small group doesn't.

Your ability to move or not move is of no consequence to the fundamental point, Mobility is very desirable.


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

While mobility/maneuverability are important parts of military operations it is a bit of stretch to try to draw the comparison to the civilian populace, especially at SHTF+60-90.

The military relies on advanced logistical planning resources, C4ISR assets, aerial and ground mobility vehicles and has complete land/sea/air dominance and control. To add to that it has self-sustaining medical, supply, engineering, intelligence, signals and operational assets that all benefit from those aforementioned technologies, and help each other. However, it is only as sustainable as the technology it uses. Without satellite imagery, advance digital and secure analog communications, and constant supplies of food, water, ammo, medical supplies, vehicle parts, gas and oil (and dip and energy drinks) that mobility would be 3 days, tops.

At 60-90 days after a TRUE SHTF event, whether a massively adaptable bacterial infection, EMP, or meteor or something else happen - all central infrastructure will eventually fail due to lack of upkeep, damage or lack of operators. There will be no drones, no GPS terminals, no CCTVs, gas will quickly dry up as everyone uses it or sitting fuel inside of cars goes foul - mobility becomes much more difficult for everyone.

The topic is still centered around in training how you want to operate/live at the end of the world - we can argue the semantics of high-level military operational doctrines, and different threat vectors and how to move - but eventually the movement will stop. 

I drew attention to carrying weight and gear encumbrance as people often overlook how much all that stuff is - everyone seems to want to "bug-out" as that is the coolguy term that gets associated with "prepping" but not understand how to do it. There are different styles of living, some want to be lightweight and nomadic and live off the land/existing resources. Some will organize into communes and build cross-functional teams that can deliver projects and products that offer sustainability, community growth and provide defense and some will hide in a hole in the ground and probably go insane.

I do believe if you could establish a well prepared compound/location with some truly determined and focused people, whether family, close friends or a mix and be able to be successfully prepared, but that still requires practice and constant guidance.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Well I don't know about y'all but when a small force is " holed " up in a house or a " farm " and a larger fighting force with possibly better gear is outside............ I call that being " pinned down ". 

So are some of you going to wait your turn to be " pinned down " or would it be wise to relocate in advance ? 

How about a chemical attack and you can't breathe the air any longer ? Nuclear attack or accident ? Take iodine tabs while you grow a third head ?


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Operator6 said:


> Sure I realize they have permanent installations but they have the ability to hold it. A small group doesn't.
> 
> Your ability to move or not move is of no consequence to the fundamental point, Mobility is very desirable.


Who will this small group be fighting????

Do you mean mobility based on vehicle or foot.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> Who will this small group be fighting????
> 
> Do you mean mobility based on vehicle or foot.


Who will the force be fighting ? Who knows......SHTF can bring several scenarios.

Vehicle and on foot if needed. You know, being prepared.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

AnotherSOFSurvivor said:


> The topic is still centered around in training how you want to operate/live at the end of the world -


Yep, that is why I have stocked lots of cocoa powder, a nice soft cushion for the rocking chair and lots of coffee... my plan is to sit on the porch with my cookies, coffee, and carbine - and watch the wind blow the leaves around the yard... thats how I train


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

Bug out, were you going to bug out to? Unless you got a place to go that is yours -you sir are a refugee. Assume nothing.
Tic type commando you ask the question then add obsticals I know what a load out weighs I also know what a drag is. You see having a place to go also means I only have to hump in me and the clothes on my back every thing I need is already there , try the fear tactic " what if someone beats me to it and takes all my stuff?" --fat and I do mean fat chance - I got your or who
Evers number - I got a really big friend that is peoplephobic that lives close that I pay to watch over my Bol and yah if your unlucky enough to find it or him good nice knowing yah even freaking Sasquatch won't go out there any more and that's a chit you not.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

We plan on sheltering in place and saving the last few rounds of ammo for ourselves. Seen John Wayne do it several times in old Cowboy and ***** movies. Must work ok.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Medic33 said:


> Bug out, were you going to bug out to? Unless you got a place to go that is yours -you sir are a refugee.


I do not want to be a refugee...ever.


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Failing to train is training to fail. 

Get it how you live.....


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Operator6 said:


> Failing to train is training to fail.
> 
> Get it how you live.....


After 21 years in the military, somethings just come natural... of course at the age of 54, I am done training like I was 20, 30, or even 40.. .


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## Operator6 (Oct 29, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> After 21 years in the military, somethings just come natural... of course at the age of 54, I am done training like I was 20, 30, or even 40.. .


I understand, My aunt was in the military for over 20 years as well.


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