# EMP Recovery - YEARS, not months



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

If we (the entire USA) were hit by an EMP(s) it would take years >maybe decades< to recover

1st and most important - it would kill the transformers that you see on the electric poles and unless protected it would also kill the transformers you see setting around for replacements... There are millions of transformers across the USA... In order to make more transformers you need electricity....

transformer blown
need electric to make new transformer
no electric
no new transformer
no new transformer 
no new transformer

you are now in a bad cycle

And ..

The creation of power transformers

It takes three months to make a medium-sized power transformer of 200-300 MVA. Much of the work is highly skilled and done by hand.

A transformer requires between 1,000 and 3,000 laminations of electrical steel, each of which is laid by hand.

The copper windings are wound by hand. Precision is vital, as are craftsmanship, knowledge and experience, and testing cannot take place until the transformer is finished. If a mistake is made during construction, the transformer has to be rebuilt at great cost. 


the steel is only made at a handful of mills

>You have to make the larger transformers before you make the smaller (in front of your home) transformers

(there are other things like parts transportation, oil for the transformers, getting the right workers that know what they are doing, getting the transformers to the poles, etc)


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Do we really need power to live? our ancestors got a long just fine without it. And with a little effort we can to.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

slewfoot said:


> Do we really need power to live? our ancestors got a long just fine without it. And with a little effort we can to.


Think cities. The metro populations would quickly become very inhospitable, to say the very least. Could you imagine being in some high rise when the power goes offline for an extended period of time?


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

No electricity=No Insulin
No Insulin=Dead Mrs Slippy (Type I Juvenile Diabetic)
No Mrs Slippy=Slippy ramps up the Production of Pikes
More Pikes=More Severed Heads upon them

Lets do our best to not have an EMP, Slippy likes electricity. :eagerness:


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I read somewhere that the transformers are no longer made in the US. They are made by special order only in Japan if memory serves. My guess is that the power generating station would be off line a lot longer than 3 months. Maine Marine is correct with being offline for years.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Camel923 said:


> I read somewhere that the transformers are no longer made in the US. They are made by special order only in Japan if memory serves. My guess is that the power generating station would be off line a lot longer than 3 months. Maine Marine is correct with being offline for years.


I heard something similar. Can't remember the country (Germany?) and they are already behind on production.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Son2 (Cam19) is an electrical lineman for a large publicly traded Power Company. He not only works on overhead lines, he replaces and maintains transformers. Not saying his info is nationwide, but he tells me that the area that he works, his company has a pretty extensive inventory of thousands of transformers, miles of replacement line and acres of equipment. 

I'll concede that once all the current inventory is depleted, replacement may be difficult. I hope we never have to find out.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Denton said:


> Think cities. The metro populations would quickly become very inhospitable, to say the very least. Could you imagine being in some high rise when the power goes offline for an extended period of time?


Yes I have but you know as well as I do when it all goes to hell I,you, and everyone else will be for themselves and family. You will have to adapt.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

If you're talking about the United States, there are about 5,000 transformers to consider this for. The Electromagnetic Pulse Commission recommended it in a report they sent to Congress last year. We're talking about$150 million*or so. It's pretty small in the grand scheme of things.

Quoted from: http://www.globalresearch.ca/an-inexpensive-fix-to-prevent-armageddon/5377338

The link is a really good read. Well worth a few mins to check it out.

They mention that the Congressional EMP commission has made recommendations to fix the grid but never gets the funding. Seems to me it would be a better use of tax dollars than some of the other bs they spend our money on.

And don't forget that it could be a solar flare as well. Look into the Carrington event. Terrorists or enemies may never get a chance to emp us but there's no stopping the sun.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> Do we really need power to live? our ancestors got a long just fine without it. And with a little effort we can to.


sure we some of us could live without it... I have done it before growing up... lived with no electric and no water (accept a river 50 feet away)

BUT - This thread is not about how to live without electric it was about how long it would take to get it back up in case of a EMP. You could start a thread about living without electric.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Slippy said:


> Son2 (Cam19) is an electrical lineman for a large publicly traded Power Company. He not only works on overhead lines, he replaces and maintains transformers. Not saying his info is nationwide, but he tells me that the area that he works, his company has a pretty extensive inventory of thousands of transformers, miles of replacement line and acres of equipment.
> 
> I'll concede that once all the current inventory is depleted, replacement may be difficult. I hope we never have to find out.


all those replacement transformers..would be dead


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> Do we really need power to live? our ancestors got a long just fine without it. And with a little effort we can to.


as a side note... our ancestors also lived a shorter life...

they got along fine until about 40-50 years old... then they died


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Slippy said:


> Son2 (Cam19) is an electrical lineman for a large publicly traded Power Company. He not only works on overhead lines, he replaces and maintains transformers. Not saying his info is nationwide, but he tells me that the area that he works, his company has a pretty extensive inventory of thousands of transformers, miles of replacement line and acres of equipment.
> 
> I'll concede that once all the current inventory is depleted, replacement may be difficult. I hope we never have to find out.


I think they are short on the large transformers like you see at power stations and sub-stations. Here is a pic:









But you're right, an emp or flare would also blow all of those little ones out. I am doubtful that we have enough to fix them all. That just adds to the problem.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> all those replacement transformers..would be dead


You're right. I wonder if any companies store spares in Faraday cages?


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> as a side note... our ancestors also lived a shorter life...
> 
> they got along fine until about 40-50 years old... then they died


 For sure longevity will be the last of my concerns. You do know we will all die someday power or no power. face facts.
I always remember a saying my father had " I will live right up to the day I die."


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

It would absolutely be decades...or longer. Given the current anti-development, anti-progress mindset that seems to permeate our culture, we may never build our infrastructure to current levels again. Especially if a large percentage of the population were to die in the aftermath.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> It would absolutely be decades...or longer. Given the current anti-development, ant-progress mindset that seems to permeate our culture, we may never build our infrastructure to current levels again. Especially if a large percentage of the population died in the aftermath.


Yep, exactly right.


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> If we (the entire USA) were hit by an EMP(s) it would take years >maybe decades< to recover
> 
> 1st and most important - it would kill the transformers that you see on the electric poles and unless protected it would also kill the transformers you see setting around for replacements... There are millions of transformers across the USA... In order to make more transformers you need electricity....
> 
> ...


Then wouldn't it make sense to put a few hundred of these bad-boys in a Faraday type vault/bunker then, *just in case*?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

If we got EMP'd, but the rest of the world continued to buzz along with their electrons, they likely wouldn't allow us to stay in the dark for decades.
They rely on our existence far too much. It's one major benefit to being a huge consumer. Your seller doesn't want you out of commission for too long, or they go under.
This means China instantly shows a very strong interest in either invasion or rebuilding. Other countries band together and start sending ships full of replacement parts.
My guess is, all those "backordered" transformers appear out of nowhere and are on their way within months.

If the rest of the industrialized world is still running, we won't be down for decades.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Are we talking about an EMP or a Geomagnetic storm?


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## SecretPrepper (Mar 25, 2014)

If it were an EMP I doubt we would be the only ones in the dark for long. I see the big BUTTON push. Being like a bag of chips at a party. Once the bag is open everyone is gonna have a hand in it.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> If we got EMP'd, but the rest of the world continued to buzz along with their electrons, they likely wouldn't allow us to stay in the dark for decades.
> They rely on our existence far too much. It's one major benefit to being a huge consumer. Your seller doesn't want you out of commission for too long, or they go under.
> This means China instantly shows a very strong interest in either invasion or rebuilding. Other countries band together and start sending ships full of replacement parts.
> My guess is, all those "backordered" transformers appear out of nowhere and are on their way within months.
> ...


But will we be the USA or the United States of China/Russia/?

If nothing works and other countries are ok... they might decide that we owe them money so a land grab


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

paraquack said:


> Are we talking about an EMP or a Geomagnetic storm?


yes.......


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> But will we be the USA or the United States of China/Russia/?
> 
> If nothing works and other countries are ok... they might decide that we owe them money so a land grab


Sentence 3 addressed that concern.
However, any attempt at an invasion would prove detrimental. They rely on power just as much as we do.
Sending forces into a country with no grid would be extremely difficult, and you'd only be providing working infrastructure to your enemy every time you lost a battle.

Last time I checked the interwebs, an EMP would leave my boomstick in a fully functional state...


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Let's separate the HEMP from the Solar EMP for the sake of this discussion.
The HEMP would be devastating to a country or group of small countries but the rest of the world would still have the means to produce power. The problem with the HEMP is that it would simultaneously take out most of the electronic devices in the same area in which it destroyed the electrical grid. 
An HEMP destroys semi-conductors first with an E1 pulse - all electronics that are not hardened are useless in .001 second. Next is the E2 pulse that affects smaller electrical products like the small transformers on the poles and the smaller transformers at the sub-stations - the pulse is slower than the E1 but without the massive amperage of the next one - the E3 pulse. The E3 pulse lasts for almost a minute as it builds up tremendous amounts of current. There is enough current generated to cause the transmission wires to burst into flame, overheat the large transformers at the generating stations and large sub-stations and burning the alternators used to make the power at the coal fired plants, nuclear power plants, natural gas plants and the hydro-electric plants. So, everything in the affected region that is associated with power production or use is gone. That is from one high altitude (30 miles or higher) burst from the average small nuke.

The Solar EMP is a lot less complicated. The charged particles from the sun disrupt the geomagnetic field and produces an E3 pulse that covers the entire hemisphere (north or south) depending on its primary polarity. If it is strong enough it will also produce an E2 pulse that would also affect the entire hemisphere. If the northern hemisphere is hit with a very large solar EMP then the world may not ever recover from it - or it would be at least 100 years before we did.
All of the large generators and transformers are made in Japan and Germany and they would be without the power to make anything larger than small DC electric motors. New facilities would have to be built in the southern hemisphere to manufacture parts to gradually get mines and fuel systems up and running to supply the raw materials with which to build the components for a new electrical grid.

In the mean time all the nuclear fuel rod storage facilities would run out of power for cooling and the rods would burn uncontrolled spreading a cloud of fallout down wind. Most areas on the western shores would be fairly safe but it could get very bad for much of the rest of the country.


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

PaulS said:


> Let's separate the HEMP from the Solar EMP for the sake of this discussion.
> The HEMP would be devastating to a country or group of small countries but the rest of the world would still have the means to produce power. The problem with the HEMP is that it would simultaneously take out most of the electronic devices in the same area in which it destroyed the electrical grid.
> An HEMP destroys semi-conductors first with an E1 pulse - all electronics that are not hardened are useless in .001 second. Next is the E2 pulse that affects smaller electrical products like the small transformers on the poles and the smaller transformers at the sub-stations - the pulse is slower than the E1 but without the massive amperage of the next one - the E3 pulse. The E3 pulse lasts for almost a minute as it builds up tremendous amounts of current. There is enough current generated to cause the transmission wires to burst into flame, overheat the large transformers at the generating stations and large sub-stations and burning the alternators used to make the power at the coal fired plants, nuclear power plants, natural gas plants and the hydro-electric plants. So, everything in the affected region that is associated with power production or use is gone. That is from one high altitude (30 miles or higher) burst from the average small nuke.
> 
> ...


Would the solar back ups that are in place for a lot of situations also be rendered useless?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Auntie, that is a good question. solar panels are a bunch of photo-diodes wired together to generate a current when light hits them. There is little danger of a solar event hurting them but the E1 pulse from an HEMP would cook them in a milli-second.

Solar panels would only be good for melting down into glass.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

EMP would destroy the most fragile of circutry first, then work its way up to the bigger things like transformers. The really insidious effect of a blast would be all of the little things it would ruin. That LED flashlight you like so much? It relies on microelectronics that will fry. Your MP3 player, PCs, hard drives, generators, vehicle computers, and even the equipment needed to manufacture new chips, would all be non-op. You would prolly never even notice the transformers being blown because everything between the switch and the station would be fried. 

An EMP blast would turn life into an Amish TV show, without the TV.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

And even if the solar panels were unaffected, you can kiss your transformers bye-bye. They're fulla microelectronics, and all of that factory smoke would be released.


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## Smokin04 (Jan 29, 2014)

Damn, MM...always like getting my juices flowing late at night.

Enjoy. Also...imagine one of these...Non-nuclear EMP Weapons - How E-Bombs Work

Going off here...(edit: redacted...I won't give the bad guys any ideas)

Hooray for famine and helplessness.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The non-nuclear EMP devices do not mimic the E1 pulse. They generate the same high band microwaves that the military is using. They are easy to shield against and rely on "package openings" to work.

Let me repeat this one last time: non-nuclear EMP devices generate microwave bursts, not the E1 pulse that destroys electronics.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

PaulS said:


> Solar panels would only be good for melting down into glass.


or as large checker boards


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> or as large checker boards


I just have a problem identifying the black and white squares.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

we lived without we can life without again.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Medic33 said:


> we lived without we can life without again.


Being a medical professional, you can attest to the hundreds of thousands that certainly won't live without.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Medic33 said:


> we lived without we can life without again.


Exactly my point, thank you.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

PaulS said:


> The non-nuclear EMP devices do not mimic the E1 pulse. They generate the same high band microwaves that the military is using. They are easy to shield against and rely on "package openings" to work.
> 
> Let me repeat this one last time: non-nuclear EMP devices generate microwave bursts, not the E1 pulse that destroys electronics.


And from what little I have read in order to have an EMP like this that would affect the whole continental US would require the nuclear warhead to be detonated over Kansas at an altitude of about 300 miles.
If this happens, I think I will have bigger concerns than if my truck will start.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

A LOT of problems, as a matter of fact. 

Start from the time you wake up in the morning and contemplate the disruption. It's more than just your lights not coming on or your car cranking. What about your means of supporting your family? Will you still have a a job? You'll not be the only one out of work. Truck drivers won't be driving. Doesn't matter, as there'll be little to transport. Think of the things you buy every week. What about those things you buy when you need them, and need them right then? No need in even mentioning medicine people don't have stocked.

Now, maybe there are those who are young enough to be in perfect health, but old enough to have picked up every tip and trade necessary for living totally off the grid. You're going to have to be really far from other people, as there will be a whole lot of scared and starving people who are going to do whatever it takes for the survival of their families. You know all those people who live in and work in big cities? How many of those people will die in those cities because the power went out and their vehicles were dead? They won't be your problem. How far do you think the average businessman or computer programmer will get when he is on foot and starting from the middle of New York City or Dallas?

Yeah, the human race was around before electricity, and a power disruption won't making the human race go away, either. It would make a lot of us go away, though.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I kinda went through something like this a few years back. We had a storm and I heard transformers popping one after the other. Trees took out a few, but one of the biggest problems was the lines were slack after years of improper maintenance. The wind caused them to whip around and the slack allowed them to contact each other. BAM, instant short. The power went out, came on, went out, came on, went out... stayed out. Cascading failures took out the whole area.

Our utility had some transformers, but nowhere near enough. We got more shipped in from Texas, Canada, and other places, but it took almost 2 weeks to restore power. A big CME caused EMP would be much much worse. And yeah, the grid might never be restored completely.

But there's another scenario that is at least as likely in my opinion: what if the government FAKED an EMP? All they would have to do is tell us a big EMP is on the way, and will hit us in 2 days. They could tell people how to protect their electronics by wrapping them in foil. (the military simply stores its electronics in aluminiumized ziplock bags) Then they could just pull the plug on the grid and say there was nothing they could do. 

Why would they do this?

Well, saying civil unrest would follow would be an understatement. People would loot, riot, and basically unleash their inner beasts. At some point, the population would DEMAND that the gov take action. "Please declare martial law, come in, take all the guns and save us! PLEASE, we're begging you!!"

So, let the thugs and Rambos thin each other out, swoop in, arrest and "disappear" the surviving ones, grab up all the guns in the name of public safety, imprison all who resist, and wala... establish your new world order. Oh, and then announce your untiring efforts have found a way to restore the grid in 2 months, but only if we surrender 80% of our wealth. Because, you know, miracles ain't cheap.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> How far do you think the average ... computer programmer will get when he is on foot and starting from the middle of ... Dallas?


I rese... I say, I resemble that remark!

My answer, far enough.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> I kinda went through something like this a few years back. We had a storm and I heard transformers popping one after the other. Trees took out a few, but one of the biggest problems was the lines were slack after years of improper maintenance. The wind caused them to whip around and the slack allowed them to contact each other. BAM, instant short. The power went out, came on, went out, came on, went out... stayed out. Cascading failures took out the whole area.
> 
> Our utility had some transformers, but nowhere near enough. We got more shipped in from Texas, Canada, and other places, but it took almost 2 weeks to restore power. A big CME caused EMP would be much much worse. And yeah, the grid might never be restored completely.
> 
> ...


Don't take offense to this, but I will never vote for you.
layful:


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> I rese... I say, I resemble that remark!
> 
> My answer, far enough.


I mentioned this a while back, but it bears repeating. Wifey and I were going to visit her grandmother who lives over on the west side of Dallas. A traffic accident caused the interstate to jam up. It didn't take long at all for us to be locked in a long line of steel, close to the center of the map of the DFW area. This small town boy then realized the couple .45 pistols and couple ammo cans of ammo was not nearly enough, and neither was the food we brought along.

D/FW is crazy big!


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

There are places not too far away from our farm that did not get electrical service until 1965. In fact, when we first came here we rented a house in that very area for a number of years.
I learned how to do without electricity and running water for a year in Vietnam.

Simply having no electricity at the homestead will not be insurmountable, but for city and suburb dwellers it will be hell on earth. Look at how many are pushed to the brink when a hurricane takes out the grid for a week or two. No food, no water, no hope.
Those in hospitals at the time of the outage would no doubt die. 

The health risks due to hundreds or thousands of unburied corpses would be high. Would there be time or manpower to dispose of them all?


Prepare as best you can. Wherever you are located. Do not put this off. Do not wait. Tomorrow may be the day ISIS brings down the power grid with a simple computer hack. I believe this is much more likely than an EMP event. If the Chinese can hack the Defense Department, what is to stop someone from getting the electrical grid?


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Prepare as best you can. Wherever you are located. Do not put this off. Do not wait. Tomorrow may be the day ISIS brings down the power grid with a simple computer hack. I believe this is much more likely than an EMP event. If the Chinese can hack the Defense Department, what is to stop someone from getting the electrical grid?


This. 1,000 times this.


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## beekwimvan (Jul 28, 2015)

When i have an wind mill with an norm al car dynamo will thuis wrok af ter an emp


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## beekwimvan (Jul 28, 2015)

Will this work I mean


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

I will say this again - if you really want to know how prepared you are go outside and flip the breaker. Live without ANY electricity from Friday when you get home from work until bedtime on Sunday night. You can't go anywhere! Cut yourself and need a couple of stitches, you are supposed to be prepared to deal with that. The only exceptions we have agreed on are serious medical problems, like a broken bone, severe cuts, heart attacks etc, things that are life threatening. 

You can't say gee I didn't fill the gas cans, I am going to the gas station. I don't have enough smokes.... 

If you have young children make it a game, let them set up a tent in the yard or fort in the living room.

Practice, practice, practice!


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

beekwimvan said:


> When i have an wind mill with an norm al car dynamo will thuis wrok af ter an emp


Yes, with an inverter to convert the DC from the automobile alternator to AC for any household devices. BUT, the power output would be relatively low.
If the windmill powered alternator fed a bank of deep cycle batteries that would be better.
I have often thought about experimenting with a gasoline engine lawn mower powering a car alternator via belt drive. Again, I'm not sure if the power output would amount to much at all.


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## beekwimvan (Jul 28, 2015)

But it will servive an emp thans for me the most important. Maybe i can make a windmill wich powers a few batteries. I have an inverter wich have an outputb of Max 3000watt. But want will happen with my inverter in an emp attack. Can I protect it by putting it in an microwave. (cage of farraday)


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Your automotive alternator will easily survive any solar EMP but it will be worthless after an HEMP because the diodes that turn the AC generated into DC will be fried. The internal voltage regulator will also be fried so your alternator will be more or less useless as is. Having let you in on that information I will share that you still have a functional AC generator if you disconnect the leads from the diode bridge (internal) and thus bypass the internal regulator you have a three phase alternator that can produce moderate amounts of power. What you then need is a transformer to take the 70 -90 volts AC 3 phase and convert it to 120 VAC single phase so you can use it for the normal household items. (you will need a powerline conditioner that forces 60 Hz)

This requires some skill and a few parts but it is doable if you are determined to have power.


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