# What about a non-life threatening attack?



## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

So imagine you're getting your license orsomething at the dmv and some angry dude is yelling at everyone. u tell him to not yell cuz hes scaring kids. he gets in your face and ends up tackling u. now he punches you a couple times. Do you kill him with your gun?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> So imagine you're getting your license orsomething at the dmv and some angry dude is yelling at everyone. u tell him to not yell cuz hes scaring kids. he gets in your face and ends up tackling u. now he punches you a couple times. Do you kill him with your gun?


Yes. Right there in front of God and everyone.

Now, do not see a doctor because of your broken jaw. Doctors are a scam. Simply drive off in your armor-plated, machine gun-adorned car and think liberal thoughts about rainbows and unicorns.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

He would be dead before then.

Why do you waste our time and yours with stupid questions.

You are a libtard, just go get pummeled like you are supposed to, remember no guns for libby lilies.


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## bgreed (Feb 26, 2014)

Vlad would tell you there are a bunch of things you missed before it got that far.

Once he breaks your personal space it's game on. Couple strikes to the liver a quick thumb across the throat done.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

SOCOM42 said:


> He would be dead before then.
> 
> Why do you waste our time and yours with stupid questions.
> 
> You are a libtard, just go get pummeled like you are supposed to, remember no guns for libby lilies.


I think it's an important scenario to at least go over in your head, because it could happen to any of us. I don't carry a gun, but I believe I would not use it in this situation.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Dude, I am almost 70 years of age.
If some guy half my age "gets in my face" he will not have a chance to strike me.
His hands will reflexively go to his abdomen where I have just sent two 158 grain 357 magnum projectiles.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> I think it's an important scenario to at least go over in your head, because it could happen to any of us. I don't carry a gun, but I believe I would not use it in this situation.


Well big boy or is it still man child?

I don't need to go over it, cross my safety circle with violent intent and you die, that simple.

Having been a police officer for 20 years, I know a threat when I see one.

Yes, I carry a gun or two and well know how to use them.


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Dude, I am almost 70 years of age.
> If some guy half my age "gets in my face" he will not have a chance to strike me.
> His hands will reflexively go to his abdomen where I have just sent two 158 grain 357 magnum projectiles.


How many people have you killed so far? lol.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> How many people have you killed so far? lol.


You just asked a Vietnam vet, and infantryman at that, a really stupid question.

Tick...tick...tick...

Cats had better play as much as they can. The sands of time are running out on this one....


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

SOCOM42 said:


> Well big boy or is it still man child?
> 
> I don't need to go over it, cross my safety circle with violent intent and you die, that simple.
> 
> ...


I guess I was thinking he would be about your size. There would be tons of other people around too, and this would be inside.


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

Denton said:


> You just asked a Vietnam vet, and infantryman at that, a really stupid question.
> 
> Tick...tick...tick...
> 
> Cats had better play as much as they can. The sands of time are running out on this one....


It was a rhetorical question. I just figure he would have to shoot a lot of people if all it took was someone getting in his face.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> It was a rhetorical question. I just figure he would have to shoot a lot of people if all it took was someone getting in his face.


It was a dumbass question...

tick...tick...tick...


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> How many people have you killed so far? lol.


You know you talk like the ignorant ass you be.

Ever think that many of us here are veterans and served in combat?

Plus the factor we are still alive?


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

SOCOM42 said:


> You know you talk like the ignorant ass you be.
> 
> Ever think that many of us here are veterans and served in combat?
> 
> Plus the factor we are still alive?


What does being a combat vet have to do with anything? He said he would murder someone if they got in his face. I don't care what kind of vet he is, that's just a dangerous way to think about that situation.


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

Denton said:


> It was a dumbass question...
> 
> tick...tick...tick...


It wasn't actually a question. It was rhetorical.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

TomBrands said:


> I think it's an important scenario to at least go over in your head, because it could happen to any of us. I don't carry a gun, but I believe I would not use it in this situation.


Yes you are absolutely right. Don't use a gun in this situation, in fact don't use a gun at all. You don't need it. Cops are there to protect and serve you. Good luck...


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> I guess I was thinking he would be about your size. There would be tons of other people around too, and this would be inside.


....and the odds are they would just stand there and watch...after all its not them and not their problem, that would be the mentality of most of them. But you could rest assured they would have their cell phones out recording the part where you shot him though and that video would likely be introduced in court to be used AGAISNT you!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> It wasn't actually a question. It was rhetorical.


It was a dumbass rhetoric...

tick...tick...tick...


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> I guess I was thinking he would be about your size. There would be tons of other people around too, and this would be inside.


Inside? good, witnesses, I don't care if he is half my size in either direction, he is going down.

I could detail a McDonald's incident 20 years ago, but too much typing.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> What does being a combat vet have to do with anything? He said he would murder someone if they got in his face. I don't care what kind of vet he is, that's just a dangerous way to think about that situation.


Murder??? I guess you don't know much about the law or anything else do you?

A killing, yes, self defense is not murder unless you are re-writing our laws.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> How many people have you killed so far? lol.


That's between me and God, sonny boy.


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

SOCOM42 said:


> Murder??? I guess you don't know much about the law or anything else do you?
> 
> A killing, yes, self defense is not murder unless you are re-writing our laws.


In my scenario it would be self-defense. But he said he would shoot someone just for getting in his face. That's where I think it's murder, and I think the law would agree.


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## whoppo (Nov 9, 2012)

If someone "gets in your face" they are an annoyance. Annoyances are best ignored.
If someone "punches and tackles you" they are an attacker.
Attackers are a threat to life and well-being and as such are subject to a response sufficient to end the attack. If the attacker is younger, stronger, larger or in greater numbers than the victim, that constitutes "disparity of force" and absolutely justifies a lethal response... assuming it's not too late.

Other people in the vicinity? these days most would just live-stream it to facebook.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Tick, Tick, Tick.


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

whoppo said:


> If someone "gets in your face" they are an annoyance. Annoyances are best ignored.
> If someone "punches and tackles you" they are an attacker.
> Attackers are a threat to life and well-being and as such are subject to a response sufficient to end the attack. If the attacker is younger, stronger, larger or in greater numbers than the victim, that constitutes "disparity of force" and absolutely justifies a lethal response... assuming it's not too late.
> 
> Other people in the vicinity? these days most would just live-stream it to facebook.


If some guy attacked an old man and I witnessed it, I would step in. That's just me though.


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## Targetshooter (Dec 4, 2015)

TomBrands said:


> I think it's an important scenario to at least go over in your head, because it could happen to any of us. I don't carry a gun, but I believe I would not use it in this situation.


go back under the rock where you came from , my dog has more brains then you do .


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> If some guy attacked an old man and I witnessed it, I would step in. That's just me though.


OK, I am 75 and I don't need your help, you would just get in the way, at this point collateral damage.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> What does being a combat vet have to do with anything? He said he would murder someone if they got in his face. I don't care what kind of vet he is, that's just a dangerous way to think about that situation.


I dont know how many "fist fights" you have seen between two adult men, but it can be brutally dangerous to ones health and welfare even if they arent trained MMA fighters! I have a buddy in the Navy that couldnt walk away from a confrontations, threw a punch and spent the next 10 years in prison as a result due to the fact he knocked the guy out and the guys head bounced off the side walk and left him brain dead! So dont think a fist fight cant be deadly, it most certianly can be and has on many occassions been deadly or resulted in very serious injury. I know this for a fact since I worked as a bouncer in a Latin Night Club close to the Border of Mexico for several years part time while I was still in the Navy before I retired. Number 2. you dont let someone take you to the ground unless you are all that, two bags of chips and a large Dr Pepper at grappling...cuase your probably history as they can then do to you just about what ever they want with impunity and that rarely works out very good for the home team and when they do get you to the ER, all the Kings Men and all The Kings Horses may not be able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.


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## TomBrands (Feb 9, 2017)

SOCOM42 said:


> OK, I am 75 and I don't need your help, you would just get in the way, at this point collateral damage.


I'm sure you're capable of defending yourself, but I would still try to help. I do yoga so I'm pretty strong.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> I'm sure you're capable of defending yourself, but I would still try to help. I do yoga so I'm pretty strong.


REPEAT: OK, I am 75 and I don't need your help, you would just get in the way, at this point collateral damage.


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## whoppo (Nov 9, 2012)

TomBrands said:


> I'm sure you're capable of defending yourself, but I would still try to help. I do yoga so I'm pretty strong.


Slippy? Is that you?


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

did you just assume the attacker's gender????? Bigot!!!


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

whoppo said:


> Slippy? Is that you?


Nuttier than squirrel $hit. Emmm could be Slippy, a troll or one of a cast of thousands. Maybe Fred is back from his California vacation.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Well, I believe in carrying lethal and non-lethal defensive weapons. For example, other than my Kimber, I also carry an Uzi tactical pen.

Here's where I depart from many members here. I will defend myself, but I do not think killing the guy helps your cause. Massad Ayoob broke down the costs to a "righteous shooting" +20 years ago. It cost 20K then, so figure 60K now.

I also carry TOPS knives and/or a switchblade. I don't care how much bluster a thug presents, when he's cut to the bone he usually loses his taste for bravado.

Exception, that would be if a weapon is presented, then he'd be shot without a thought.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

TomBrands said:


> I think it's an important scenario to at least go over in your head, because it could happen to any of us. I don't carry a gun, but I believe I would not use it in this situation.


Well as a mean old racist ex cop. I am highly trained to reserve deadly force as a last resort. Now in the hypothetical scenario under discussion getting punched in the head or kicked in he groin is considered a deadly act and should be met with deadly force...in cop parlance anyway. Now say in a regular old situation where a pesky pan handler gets out of hand..that is why the Lord gave us OC Spray. I never leave home without my small sample of the stuff. Would be nice to have a chance to try it before shooting some idiot.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Dude, in Florida I have no duty to retreat.
The threshold for using deadly force is being in fear for my life.
If some very angry young man is within inches of me and making threats that would meet the legal parameters.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Denton said:


> Yes. Right there in front of God and everyone.
> 
> Now, do not see a doctor because of your broken jaw. Doctors are a scam. Simply drive off in your armor-plated, machine gun-adorned car and think liberal thoughts about rainbows and unicorns.


Couldn't say it better If I wanted tol


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

SOCOM42 said:


> He would be dead before then.
> 
> Why do you waste our time and yours with stupid questions.
> 
> You are a libtard, just go get pummeled like you are supposed to, remember no guns for libby lilies.


Would rather have an old hippie at my back than tommie


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## ilmostrog (Nov 10, 2016)

You guys need to just ignore tombrands I think he is just here to start shit and have a laugh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Real Old Man said:


> Couldn't say it better If I wanted tol


That is my favorite Merle song!


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

I cant even read thru these threads started by the liberals joining the forum. I just skipped to the end to post this. Cant we get it set up so that when liberals join and start with their shit they instantly get banned so we don't have to deal with them?


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

What right does the attacker have to damage me or my property? If I felt that the attacker was damaging me or my property I have the right to defend myself and my property. If the best method I have to defend myself or my property is using my legally carried weapon then I am within my rights to use it.

These liberals spraying mace on people who show support for Trump are the same thing. They are putting the victim in a self defense situation. The liberals claim to be in physical fear of the conservatives. But what do we actually see happening every day on the TV news? Another Liberal protesting and breaking windows or macing a Trump supporter. From what I see on the news the liberals tend to be much more emotionally driven in their actions and don't use their cognitive facilities to conceder their actions before they act.

TomBrands, If I physically attacked you and was winning would you grab a weapon of some sort to defend yourself? What if the only weapon you had was your pocket knife? Would you use it? @TomBrands

Given the opportunity to run away why should you allow the other guy chase you off when you possess the legal right to be there? Why let a bully win? We teach our children not to back down from a bully so who should I?


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

MaterielGeneral said:


> I cant even read thru these threads started by the liberals joining the forum. I just skipped to the end to post this. Cant we get it set up so that when liberals join and start with their shit they instantly get banned so we don't have to deal with them?


No, we need to look at both sides of the argument. I occasionally watch CNN when I want to see the other side on a particular topic.

Blindly attaching the liberals without attempting to see their side of the argument is foolish.

But it the liberal member is simply trying to pester us like a 6 yr old child with unrealistic scenarios then yes, he should be banned. At this point I've only read a few of TomBrands posts but he seems to be asking legitimate realistic questions.

We tell the liberals everyday that they need to look at the facts. What is wrong with a liberal asking a legitimate question trying to learn the facts?

facts for Tom.

By crossing our national boarder illegally they are criminals.
Taxing people who stayed in school and work hard more to pay to help people who probably don't work as hard and made bad life choices is government sponsored theft
If you have 3 kids out of wedlock why should I pay for your bad decisions? I may be willing to assist in a meal for the kids at school but not for the parent.
Health care and health insurance is not a right, pay for it or do without. work a 2nd job or do without. I work extra to pay for my insurance.
If a person made a lot of bad choices like getting a bunch of tattoos on his face, affecting his ability to get a job; so why should I help him financially? He had the money for the tattoos...
We fought our revolution 250 years ago against a country that had better weapons and already spilled our blood. Why should we continue to support those who won't do the same when faced with tyranny?
If I don't pay my loan the bank will take my house. So why does our country keep taking out more loans we know we can't repay?


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## Flabbergasted (Mar 21, 2017)

If things get to that point, you obviously can't handle a confrontation at all, so your gun probably won't help. If you would then need a gun to take someone dumb enough to tackle you, maybe you'll get some sense beaten into you for future reference.

Take it from the beginning, and we'll call the person in our thought experiment Bob. So, Bob is in line to renew his license when this guy starts screaming and swearing, and for the sake of argument DMV security didn't show up for work today so on he goes. Bob tries to calm him down, but Bob doesn't know how to properly respond to the situation so he makes a poor choice in words and/or body language. Or, Bob does make the right choices but this guy is completely irrational. Either way, the guy instead turns his attention toward Bob.
Now at this point, Bob should be removing himself from the situation, but let's say he is either physically obstructed from doing so or the guy won't allow him to back off, so it's escalating to a physical confrontation. The guy invades Bob's personal space such that even if he doesn't make contact, he's close enough to say he did.
The moment this happens the door opens to self-defense, so Bob can just punch the guy in the throat or solar plexus and simultaneously kick the guy's knee. The chances of this guy having any fight left after that are slim. If Bob is a little more skilled, he can 'panic' and 'fall' fist-first into the guy's solar plexus, then bring the blade of his foot down the guy's shin 'while trying to regain his balance', which will just as effectively end the problem while offering Bob another layer of legal protection.
Now, let's say this guy is really lucky and he's somehow still standing after Bob's initial strikes. On top of that, no one else is intervening. Bob should be at guard at this point, so when the guy throws a strike Bob will have to dodge or block it, and that will open another opportunity to strike. Basic hand-to-hand - a ten-year-old can win this fight, so if Bob doesn't even have this level of training he's just a fool.
What if instead of striking the guy draws a knife? This is where the situation gets dicey, because combating a knife is not necessarily basic hand-to-hand. Ideally Bob would have real martial arts training and still be capable of defending himself, but not everybody has the opportunity to learn that. At this point Bob's life is in danger, so that probably gives Bob legal grounds to shoot him. But if Bob does that, there's the possibility of overpenetration or grazing or missing, in either case creating a real potential to hit someone else, so drawing a gun is still not a good option.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

TomBrands said:


> So imagine you're getting your license orsomething at the dmv and some angry dude is yelling at everyone. u tell him to not yell cuz hes scaring kids. he gets in your face and ends up tackling u. now he punches you a couple times. Do you kill him with your gun?


Trick question. The DMV probably has a no gun sign out front.

But you can defend yourself....Me...I'm gonna choke his ass out before he can hit me....Thats why there are laws that include provocation. If it looks like he can kick my ass....the weapons are in play.


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## lupine14 (Mar 24, 2017)

First mistake is speaking to the crazy man at all - that is, if you really don't want a fight. The bit about 'scaring the kids' is nonsense: kids entertain themselves with things these days that would keep me up all night with the creeps for a week. They probably wouldn't even notice any yelling and screaming because they all have earphones in their ears, which parents are glad to provide in order to keep them occupied. The real first step in such a situation would be to speak to the nearest armed officer; there's always going to be at least one around at a DMV. If you don't find one easily, speak to anybody who looks responsible with a uniform - by that, I mean, not one of those diversity hires with the teased hair and three inches of makeup and about a 60 IQ who either won't understand what your problem is or doesn't give a damn.  If you're a trained fighter, do as you like with the situation but keep in mind that you're likely to get blamed for everything. Never count on 'witnesses' to back you up.

That said, as an older lady, I can safely, and quite legally, consider any attack on my person as a life-threatening attack and I would respond accordingly - which is not to say I'd always take recourse to a firearm, just that I'd make sure the perp wasn't going to be getting up again any time soon, or ever, boo hoo. These days, regardless of your age or sex, you might want to start thinking the same way, for you can no longer guess, let alone predict, what's going to reach ordinary people around you as you may once have done. People are crazier than ever and our national demographics today no longer represent a majority of reasonable, decent and law-abiding people. What we tolerate is what we become. You're probably old enough to understand that we've been forced to put up with a lot of things over the last few decades that are completely alien to the fundamental values of our own civilization and now there's no way to go but further down into primitivity. Be prepared for 'worst case scenario' everywhere you go, no matter how tame it looks.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

TomBrands said:


> So imagine you're getting your license orsomething at the dmv and some angry dude is yelling at everyone. u tell him to not yell cuz hes scaring kids. he gets in your face and ends up tackling u. now he punches you a couple times. Do you kill him with your gun?


No, I kill him with my breath. I just had a pizza with extra onions and garlic on it. It makes my breath worse than a canister of WWI mustard gas.


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