# Notes on combat from a combat vet



## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

After reading several posts from keyboard commandos (on this and several other forums) I wanted to share some things I've learned from personal experiences. While some may be sayings you have heard before they are things I learned are absolutely true for me. I encourage other vets and law enforcement personnel who have looked down the barrel of a gun and lived to tell the tale to share. The goal is paint a more realistic picture of a gun fight. With that in mind if you don't have actual real life experience then please just read and reflect. 

These are my truths based on my time as a paratrooper, machine gunner and eventually a team leader.

1) you miss far more then you hit, this is why I carry a glock rather then a 1911
2) not getting shot is more important then shooting the bad guy, what I mean is if your firearm is for self defense and your shooting without moving (range permitting) your doing it wrong
3) when the adrenalin hits good luck picking out his head from his ass, oh afterwards you will remember all kinds of details and at the same time other parts will be vague at best. Fine motor skills go out the window course motor skills take over. You revert back to your highest level of mastered training
4) bullets are cheap but lives are irreplaceable, this works both ways, if you can shoot the threat once then shoot them more, but keep in mind that your responsible for every round you fire
5) the person that initiates contact has the advantage and the shorter the conflict the more this advantage matters, this is why staying situationally aware is vital
6) the shorter the range the faster the fight, review item number five
7) if you know nothing about first aid and carry a gun for self defense then at a minimum learn to control major bleeding

These are just a few I can think of off the top of my head, I'm curious if other combat vets have had similar observations


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Training, training, & more training. Things become second nature to instinctive reaction in a firefight.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> Training, training, & more training. Things become second nature to instinctive reaction in a firefight.


Agreed, but only good training that is mastered. I have seen more then a few new soldiers who were trained poorly which makes them marginally better then useless in the fight.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

The shock of your first contact is something that has to be experienced to be understood. This is where training will help you to act without initial thought.
He who hesitates is lost.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Might I also add a component I feel that is overly missed.

Forget the AAR. After it is reported, . . . forget it. It is done, . . . cannot be un-done, . . . good / bad / whatever.

What was done, . . . IS done, . . . leave it there.

There are far too many people doing the "but if only....................." routine, . . . and there simply are no "but if" s in life.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

And prepare to live the whole thing over and over and over. Then second guess yourself over and over and over.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Learn to stack the deck in your favor everyday all day and for no reason. IF your not a fighter don't pretend to be one.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

My father always told me it was the little things that would get you and I never really appreciated it till I was a team leader. Most people don't forget the big stuff, you know like getting dressed and breathing oxygen. It's when you willing choose to skip your PCC/PCI or neglect your priorities of work that you can wind up in trouble real quick. The civilian equivalent would be choosing to leave your gun at home or not carrying a spare magazine and light.


ApexPredator said:


> Learn to stack the deck in your favor everyday all day and for no reason. IF your not a fighter don't pretend to be one.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Never get into a fight you don't have to win.

Amateurs train until they can do something right, professionals train until they can't do it wrong.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Great post EH...except I still don't like Glocks! lol, but I see where they have a place though!


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Another rule is don't become predictable. It is a really bad trait of complacency. We lost an entire convoy before they left the gate because they were always in one spot at the same time everyday for a convoy brief. One of the Afgan guards took the opportunity to kill and wound almost all of them before escaping into the desert. 

We had another convoy blown up because they always stopped outside the gate to change status of weapons before going on patrol. Same time same place every day. One day a few guys with RPGs were waiting for them. It was not a good day for us.


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## NavySEAL (Oct 16, 2014)

All sounds pretty good to me.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Well I would not carry glock a to the recycling bin, let alone on my person


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> Well I would not carry glock a to the recycling bin, let alone on my person


Well there are people who like Sig despite the fact that Sig thinks all their firearms are free from defect, that consumers are general idiots and any problem you are having with one of their fine products is user error (understandably a large percentage of malfunctions are user error but come on Sig, all of them?) and customer service is all to happy to tell you all of this when you call with your problem. All joking aside the Sigs I've shot and handled were fine guns if you liked DA autos, just not for me. As for glock.. mine works, I shoot it a lot, I've had mine almost two years I'm fast approaching the 5000 round mark and have yet to have a malfunction. My first handgun was a rock island 1911 in 45 acp. Shot the crap out of it till the hammer strut broke I think that gun saw nearly 10,000 rounds before that. Ah the good ol' days when I was a single private with no bills (truck was paid off with my basic money) and the poor money management that allowed me to spend everything I made (wish I had saved more). Now I have a wife and a mortgage and she would not be happy if I spent $400 every couple of months on ammo so I shoot less and a cheaper round. Not sure where I was going with this... oh well.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

When I was a single Private I could not afford rounds to shoot let alone a weapon for them. Glocks are ok just highly over rated and priced build on hype by selling them for next to nothing to LE agency for so long. good marketing trick.
By the time I retired I made more a month than I did for a year when it all started. Long journey. Funny part was it was never one I had planned to make.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Well I would not carry glock a to the recycling bin, let alone on my person


Whoooaa! Wait a damn minute...Smitty's got a recycling bin? :-?


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> When I was a single Private I could not afford rounds to shoot let alone a weapon for them. Glocks are ok just highly over rated and priced build on hype by selling them for next to nothing to LE agency for so long. good marketing trick.
> By the time I retired I made more a month than I did for a year when it all started. Long journey. Funny part was it was never one I had planned to make.


Bought the pistol on return from my first deployment. Being a single E4 I lived in the barracks and ate in the chow hall so after paying vehicle insurance and cell phone I had at least a grand to blow each month and it didn't matter if I bled my account dry I always had a place to sleep and eat. I kept my handgun to a married soldiers house cause as you know military post are gun free zones where mass shootings never happen. I agree that glock cost more then they should. I picked mine up for $400 on the blue light (police discount) which applies to military too. In fact that was why I bought it. At the time I carried a Ruger SR9C with a crimson trace laser. I loved that gun but it had an issue with light primer strikes. So before I got out of the army I sold it and bought the glock. I wouldn't buy a glock at retail price. I'm actually looking for a second glock on the used market.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

Learn to work radios, contrary to popular belief they are not magic and it could be the difference between life and death. This is actually something I'm deficient in on the civilian side but I plan on addressing this shortcoming. Also the saying "two is one and one is none" applies to knowledge too. If your the only person in your group who knows something important or possesses a critical skill and you are incapacitated or separated from your group what are they going to do?


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

E.H. said:


> Well there are people who like Sig despite the fact that Sig thinks all their firearms are free from defect, that consumers are general idiots and any problem you are having with one of their fine products is user error (understandably a large percentage of malfunctions are user error but come on Sig, all of them?) and customer service is all to happy to tell you all of this when you call with your problem. All joking aside the Sigs I've shot and handled were fine guns if you liked DA autos, just not for me. As for glock.. mine works, I shoot it a lot, I've had mine almost two years I'm fast approaching the 5000 round mark and have yet to have a malfunction. My first handgun was a rock island 1911 in 45 acp. Shot the crap out of it till the hammer strut broke I think that gun saw nearly 10,000 rounds before that. Ah the good ol' days when I was a single private with no bills (truck was paid off with my basic money) and the poor money management that allowed me to spend everything I made (wish I had saved more). Now I have a wife and a mortgage and she would not be happy if I spent $400 every couple of months on ammo so I shoot less and a cheaper round. Not sure where I was going with this... oh well.


Just gonna defend Sig alittle here.
I took my Sig 229SRT Extreme and my Kimber target II to a pretty renowned gunsmith in my community (SF). For us he normally takes factory guns in and tweaks and polishes until they are the prime example of their class, my kimber cost me 100$ for that service, and I could noticeably appreciate the difference on the range. My Sig cost 0, he said it was absolutely in perfect condition. Now I know this is all work of mouth but, when gunsmiths take their guns to this gunsmith, I am gonna give him the credit.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm not knocking Sig guns just their customer service  which is also word of mouth


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

We have devolved into another Glock bashing thread. I like my Glock alot. I miss my Sig P-229. Really want another.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Great tips folks. Thanks a lot for the advice and your Service.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

I didn't intend to start a gun bashing thread of any type, in fact I've said multiple times that both glock and Sig makes good guns, I complained very specifically about one company customer service and the others price, and let's be honest, every one wants good customer service and good products at lower prices. The only comment that could be taken as glock bashing is smitty saying he wouldn't carry one albeit to a recycling bin his choice. Hopefully this thread won't turn into a discussion of the merits of gun x vs gun y. I started this specifically because someone had posted in another thread about how best to shoot someone and talked about the Mozambique drill. The fact that it's even called the Mozambique drill makes me skeptical of its legitimacy as a shooting drill. It sounds like something that some two bit instructor saw in a movie and decided to incorporate into his class and he needed a high speed name to convince people he was a legit operator and that they should pay him so they to could be a high speed low drag death dealing internet commando. Now I never brought this up cause I could be wrong and this could be legit. Instead I focused I what I actually have experience with. In my experience I was taught and taught my guys you shoot center of mass till the job is done using things like falling targets and balloons pinned to targets. Hit the target as many times as it takes but don't stop till the balloons pop. The only people I ever heard talk about two to the chest one to the head were new privates and turd team leaders.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Lol everyone makes lemons and gems. Buying things is like the lotto you hedge your bet by buying from good manufacturers but at the end of the day its still an unknown.

If your gonna put your life on the line, don't buy bargain brand line.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

To the OP who doubts the legitamacy of the Mozambique Drill (also known as the failure to stop drill):
have the teachings of Jeff Cooper been forgotten already?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> When I was a single Private I could not afford rounds to shoot let alone a weapon for them. Glocks are ok just highly over rated and priced build on hype by selling them for next to nothing to LE agency for so long. good marketing trick.
> By the time I retired I made more a month than I did for a year when it all started. Long journey. Funny part was it was never one I had planned to make.


Oh, yes. I remember.
In 1970, as an E-5 I was knocking down a little over $300 per MONTH. And that included $65 combat pay and $13 overseas pay.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

I do not care for Glocks, I prefer 1911's. Does that make Glock a bad pistol? No, it just means that I personally don't care for them. I don't remember hearing allot of complaints of function failures of Glocks or 1911's for that matter, so what it boils down to is a matter of taste. The same could be said of Sigs, Berettas, and many other well manufactured firearms. It's like trying to argue who is sexier, blonds, redheads, brunettes, or black haired women. The truth is what ever appeals to you the most.

Perhaps the greatest U.S. hero of WW1 was Alvin York. He killed or captured a butt load of Germans using his M1903 rifle, but he also had 6 German soldiers coming towards him, fired 6 rounds with his 1911 pistol, killing all 6 German soldiers. One kill for each FMJ .45 ACP round that he fired. To paraphrase Kipling, the man who can keep his head while the sh** is flying all around him, is the most dangerous man on the battlefield.


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## jnichols2 (Mar 24, 2013)

E.H. said:


> After reading several posts from keyboard commandos (on this and several other forums) I wanted to share some things I've learned from personal experiences. While some may be sayings you have heard before they are things I learned are absolutely true for me. I encourage other vets and law enforcement personnel who have looked down the barrel of a gun and lived to tell the tale to share. The goal is paint a more realistic picture of a gun fight. With that in mind if you don't have actual real life experience then please just read and reflect.
> 
> These are my truths based on my time as a paratrooper, machine gunner and eventually a team leader.
> 
> ...


I like #5 -- a LOT.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

sideKahr said:


> To the OP who doubts the legitamacy of the Mozambique Drill (also known as the failure to stop drill):
> have the teachings of Jeff Cooper been forgotten already?


Actually I did a search last night on it (Google's your friend ignorance is not) and found the story on it. Apparently he heard a story from a friend who while fighting in Africa (Mozambique huh I guess that's where the name comes from who would have guessed ) came around a corner and was looking down the barrel of an AKM. He was armed with a pistol. He fired two shots into the combatants chest but he was still coming so he aimed a little higher and fired again striking the guy in the base of the skull. After hearing the story, Cooper decided to incorporate this into his handgun teachings. I will most likely get flamed for this but for me personally I believe that while Jeff Cooper is the father of modern handgun technique not all of his ideas are gold. Even great men have not so great ideas at times. I also disagree with certain aspects of his scout rifle concept. Either way I apologize for my ignorance, and I should have just kept my mouth shut about things I have not experienced (that's the point of the thread right). Reminds me of the saying "it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot then to open it and prove your one.


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## Hawaii Volcano Squad (Sep 25, 2013)

Only thing I can add to this combat thread is that my Grandfather Abraham never ever talked about war, fighting, guns, explosives, or anything but soccer teams and concentrated on Temple events raising money for the Jewish National Fund after WW II when he was forced to choose between either perishing in a concrete factory in Kyrgyzstan where everyone died due to terrible working conditions or volunteering to fight in the 2nd Polish Corps fighting (formed in Osh, Kyrgyzstan) under Russian command as a sapper. They had a Polish Col. and a lot of refugees from the Nazis that formed an entire Corps.

Really guys he just wanted to forget the terrible time of the Holocaust that he just barely survived starting from the Nazis bombing Warsaw, fleeing to Russia, to when his unit was decommissioned in Lublin, Poland. It was a long fight marching from Kyrgyzstan to Lublin, Poland. He NEVER talked about war so I do find it odd when veterans do talk about any war, but I can only imagine WW II fighting as a sapper on the Russian front was a different reality.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

Everyone's experiences are different. Some people choose to share them others don't. Some people have seen some pretty harsh things, others spent a lot of time in the MWR. I consider myself fortunate. I've lost a couple of friends but never anyone that was directly under me. In the six years I was in I was in two different units. We lost more soldiers battalion wide in garrison then during both of my deployment. I tend not to tell war stories because I am not Rambo. All of our success was because we were a well trained team that was competently led (for the most part). I got out nearly 2 years ago cause the major fighting for big army was basically over and I was on orders for a training unit. There were personal reasons that also influenced me in a major way. Would I do it again? ABSOLUTELY. Do I miss it? Well that's tricky. I love combat. You are never more important then when you're responsible for the man to your right and left. I love the craft. I love being a paratrooper. I love teaching new soldiers. That's why I started instructing with the appleseed project. That's why I started this thread. I hate the politics of career advancement. I lacked tact the first half of my career. I hate running (which is why I am getting fat). I hate seeing incompetent people promoted. Finally I loath the CAV. Any paratrooper will agree with me on that last point.


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

I am not a vet nor law enforcement, however, i have taken defensive firearm courses and train regularly. I believe as a gun owner training is essential. 

My story is this, 

Copied from a old thread of mine on another Forum:
"Today in Logansport, IN i was at the gas station, just went in for a coke.. I came out and as i was about to get in my car a guy walked out from behind the gas station and said "Give me your wallet and i wont hurt you"......
So i instantly drew my Glock out and yelled step back, he backed up, as soon as i got my phone out to call the police he took off running.. Glad i had my Glock!!!!"

What I learned from this (Compared to what im sure you vets have gone thru is minimal) is ALWAYS be ready. I still can't forget the shock i was in, but i put the training I took at full use that day and credit it for me being able to handle the situation. It made me realize the stress vets and active military go through. I respect vets so much more. You guys have to deal with wondering who may shoot at me next all day, every day. 


.


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

Example of #3... Father was in a gun fight. Guy was spitting distance from my father and missed 4 shots.. He didn't get off a 5th. No fine motor function when adrenaline kicks in. 2 shots from my father. No tax payer funded incarceration. To the other points.. Father was highly trained, had a cool head and good reactions. NYPD. 

And lastly if you carry a gun, you need to train consistently and not just in putting holes in paper targets. Train under pressure and in a variety of scenarios specially with movement.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

I appreciate the stories from the law enforcement side of the house, as a vet a lot of what I have learned does not directly translate well into concealed carry and general day to day preparedness.


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

Piratesailor said:


> Example of #3... Father was in a gun fight. Guy was spitting distance from my father and missed 4 shots.. He didn't get off a 5th. No fine motor function when adrenaline kicks in. 2 shots from my father. No tax payer funded incarceration. To the other points.. Father was highly trained, had a cool head and good reactions. NYPD.
> 
> And lastly if you carry a gun, you need to train consistently and not just in putting holes in paper targets. Train under pressure and in a variety of scenarios specially with movement.


Agreed, training is essential. The guy i train with twice a month is a retired arms instructor in the Marines. He is good. He gets my blood pumping and has a course set up on his property that pushes you a bit. Obviously no one is shooting back but he occasionally will throw some firecrackers in the pit with me to mess with me and get me going. haha. One time he tossed one right when i was about the squeeze the trigger and i missed my target completely.. I paper plate from 10ft was missed because of a damn firecracker. I can't imagine mortars, machine-gun fire and explosions. I would sh!t myself and probably miss every target.


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

My nephew was a captain in the 101.. One of the things that he told me, that I found imteresting and scary, was the ballistic sound while being shot at. The example he gave was someone shooting at you - the sound of the bullet passing by you would make you think the shooter was to the left or right (depending on where the bullet went) and not in front or behind you. You hear the sonic signature of the bullet passing by you before the report of the shot. Hence the natural reaction is to turn that direction which is wrong and might get you exposed (and shot). He said they drilled new soldiered in this with various techniques.


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

jbrooks19 said:


> Agreed, training is essential. The guy i train with twice a month is a retired arms instructor in the Marines. He is good. He gets my blood pumping and has a course set up on his property that pushes you a bit. Obviously no one is shooting back but he occasionally will throw some firecrackers in the pit with me to mess with me and get me going. haha. One time he tossed one right when i was about the squeeze the trigger and i missed my target completely.. I paper plate from 10ft was missed because of a damn firecracker. I can't imagine mortars, machine-gun fire and explosions. I would sh!t myself and probably miss every target.


I'd be right there shitting too. Lol


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

E.H. said:


> Well there are people who like Sig despite the fact that Sig thinks all their firearms are free from defect, that consumers are general idiots and any problem you are having with one of their fine products is user error (understandably a large percentage of malfunctions are user error but come on Sig, all of them?) and customer service is all to happy to tell you all of this when you call with your problem. All joking aside the Sigs I've shot and handled were fine guns if you liked DA autos, just not for me. As for glock.. mine works, I shoot it a lot, I've had mine almost two years I'm fast approaching the 5000 round mark and have yet to have a malfunction. My first handgun was a rock island 1911 in 45 acp. Shot the crap out of it till the hammer strut broke I think that gun saw nearly 10,000 rounds before that. Ah the good ol' days when I was a single private with no bills (truck was paid off with my basic money) and the poor money management that allowed me to spend everything I made (wish I had saved more). Now I have a wife and a mortgage and she would not be happy if I spent $400 every couple of months on ammo so I shoot less and a cheaper round. Not sure where I was going with this... oh well.


Sigs are the best. Get a grip.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

E.H. said:


> I'm not knocking Sig guns just their customer service  which is also word of mouth


Sigs dont need any steenken customer Service.


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## Hawaii Volcano Squad (Sep 25, 2013)

bigwheel said:


> sigs dont need any steenken customer service.


 wrong!


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