# You want to pay with WHAT?



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

This is something I think everyone needs to consider. I've been listening to preppers and survivalists for years and I'm willing to bet that 90%+ are hoarding gold and/or silver in one form or another. What I want to know is- How do those people know that either of those things will be worth spit post-SHTF?

I have my own plans on what to stock up on and they don't include heavy, hard-to-secure metal.


----------



## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

thepeartree said:


> This is something I think everyone needs to consider. I've been listening to preppers and survivalists for years and I'm willing to bet that 90%+ are hoarding gold and/or silver in one form or another. What I want to know is- How do those people know that either of those things will be worth spit post-SHTF?
> 
> I have my own plans on what to stock up on and they don't include heavy, hard-to-secure metal.


I figure 22LR will be like gold.


----------



## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

thepeartree said:


> This is something I think everyone needs to consider. I've been listening to preppers and survivalists for years and I'm willing to bet that 90%+ are hoarding gold and/or silver in one form or another. What I want to know is- How do those people know that either of those things will be worth spit post-SHTF?
> 
> I have my own plans on what to stock up on and they don't include heavy, hard-to-secure metal.


The idea is a recoverable event, gold prices in theory will still increase, where your bank account will no longer exist

But on the other note, gold is shiny and is easily traded for dollars, and shtf can be in many shapes and forms, and at the end of the day you have a liquidating asset

In terms of trade, gold has a greed figure to it... Some people will trade their left nut to pretend to be rich


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

I don't think anyone here is particularly worried about some short-term disaster. In which case, dollars and any other currency will be worth less than toilet paper. I guess we'll see...


----------



## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

1 member here had his car stolen and lost that asset, to replace the car he had to eat into his preps, I bet if he had a small gold stash that would be used too.... 

So peppers hoarding gold/silver is actually a good idea (providing other preps are still taken care of, and it doesn't take away from the family, almost like a saving account


----------



## Zed (Aug 14, 2014)

Gold and Silver Hoarding is 'as you can say' the inbuilt feature of Indian culture...They never ever go bad...
Just think, as long as the Human civilization has existed, there was some form of currency or barter system...but whatever may be the case..Gold and silver never lost its value. They were important in times of Jericho, the times of Pharoah, the times of ROme, the middle ages, and as well as today.
Trust me..gold and silver will never go bad....
If not anything else...you can do dental restoration...and like a bad-ass gangster you can show off Golden/silver teeth/grillz..:-D


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm putting up a trade list. Those critters won't know whether to sheet or go blind and with a little direction, they're my raw/primary materials futures in our fuels/chemicals/medicines trade -


----------



## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

There is a full trade list... http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/...-talk/6482-hot-bartering-items.html#post94633

But the question on gold is a valid question in purchases, eg justify purchasing gold, I believe I have done that, but if not justify it as a waste


----------



## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Without the ability to test the purity of gold & silver its value can't be determined. Plus needing to be able to properly weigh it. I think people have woken up to this & realize ammo & other items will probably be of more value & easier traded. Hand tools will be of more value then they are today.


----------



## Alpha Mike Foxtrot (Sep 2, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> Without the ability to test the purity of gold & silver its value can't be determined. Plus needing to be able to properly weigh it. I think people have woken up to this & realize ammo & other items will probably be of more value & easier traded. Hand tools will be of more value then they are today.


I agree completely. The chances of counterfeit "anything" will be a real problem. Is there powder in the shells? Are these really antibiotics? What is the quality of this old fuel? Trading and bartering wont be as promising as we might hope it to be.


----------



## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Barter items have to be easily tested to determine value. Axe or hatchet is easily tested on a piece of wood as is any wood saw. Ammo, a random round can be selected & fired.

Being able to make & change handles on hand tools is a good trade skill. Blacksmithing is fun & would be a great commodity but getting the fuel for it could be an issue.


----------



## phrogman (Apr 17, 2014)

thepeartree said:


> I don't think anyone here is particularly worried about some short-term disaster. In which case, dollars and any other currency will be worth less than toilet paper. I guess we'll see...


Short term disaster is exactly what I'm prepping for. Long term stuff I haven't taken as seriously but I do plan to eventually prep for that too, I just have to take care of what is more likely first. Gold and silver is just like any other prep, it has its place and may not apply to all scenarios. I look at is as insurance.


----------



## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

People have different ideas of how long a short term SHTF will last. Whatever your definition of short term is you need to have it covered.

I've read an emp from the sun it could take six months to restore power. That is mostly because of lack of transformers/parts. So is six months short term?


----------



## big paul (Jul 14, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> People have different ideas of how long a short term SHTF will last. Whatever your definition of short term is you need to have it covered.
> 
> I've read an emp from the sun it could take six months to restore power. That is mostly because of lack of transformers/parts. So is six months short term?


it sure is, I was told it would take YEARS to replace all the transformers and relays in our power grid. I reckon once the lights go out they aren't ever coming back on.


----------



## Zed (Aug 14, 2014)

Its not just transformers friends...In case of war..the enemy will 1001% blow up the dams and power plants...its obvious...so better prepare with solar panels and wind turbines..


----------



## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Central Auckland power crisis should be resolved soon, says Mercury - Computerworld New Zealand

It took 5 weeks to repair/replace 2 main power feed cables into a major (OK minor by USA standards) city, using Australian and new Zealand crews.... So the timeline of years is highly more believable than months... (On that topic)

Wanna know more search Auckland power crisis 1998... The news/history is a little distorted from when I was fowling it


----------



## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

First it may only be a temporary thing that gold and silver have any value. Many years ago, I was living in Korea. We ha a plan for bugging out incase things went bad big time. We knew that the Korean Won would only have value as long as there was a country Government, that green backs would be preferable (you could spend them outside the country if you got out) and gold and silver's value would be around long after the other two had gone by the wayside.

Eventually both Gold and Silver will become next to worthless compared to food and ammo. But it really depends on the event, how long it lasts and how far it spreads.


----------



## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

thepeartree said:


> This is something I think everyone needs to consider. I've been listening to preppers and survivalists for years and I'm willing to bet that 90%+ are hoarding gold and/or silver in one form or another. What I want to know is- How do those people know that either of those things will be worth spit post-SHTF?
> 
> I have my own plans on what to stock up on and they don't include heavy, hard-to-secure metal.


I don't think anyone should put all your eggs in one basket but to be diversified. Gold and silver should be added after you have all your "what I need to live" preps. But gold and silver will always have the appearance of value. I never heard anyone say they have two much gold or silver. Gold and silver has a long shelf life unlike, ammo, ax handles and chickens. They are easy tests that can be done to find fakes like the magnetic test. More tests will follow in a SHTF world. Our ancestors didn't have a problem bartering with gold and silver.


----------



## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

HuntingHawk said:


> Without the ability to test the purity of gold & silver its value can't be determined. Plus needing to be able to properly weigh it. I think people have woken up to this & realize ammo & other items will probably be of more value & easier traded. Hand tools will be of more value then they are today.


I agree, once everything goes to hell gold and silver is just so much worthless weight. Tobacco, booze of any kind, and food stuffs and hand tools as you said will be the hot items. With no monetary system what are you going to do with cash, gold, silver? 
The last two are very hard to wipe your ass with.
As for Ammo, I would not trade away something they can come back and kill me with.


----------



## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

In a shtf era, the person trading fake gold, bad ammo, bad medical supplies, or bad food would not last very long once people found out they had been taken. It would not be a good thing to screw someone over in bad times, they may hunt them down and get there traded items and more back and that person may or may not live to mess with someone else again. Justice would probably be swift and harsh!


----------



## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

RNprepper said:


> I figure 22LR will be like gold.


Nada, because all the people who bet their plans on .22lr will be residing in comfortable fema camps.


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

dannydefense said:


> Nada, because all the people who bet their plans on .22lr will be residing in comfortable fema camps.


We kinda worry about that too dan. Coffee however, will be gold!


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

thepeartree said:


> This is something I think everyone needs to consider. I've been listening to preppers and survivalists for years and I'm willing to bet that 90%+ are hoarding gold and/or silver in one form or another. What I want to know is- How do those people know that either of those things will be worth spit post-SHTF?
> 
> I have my own plans on what to stock up on and they don't include heavy, hard-to-secure metal.


You'd better believe I have precious metals in my preparations. By the way, do you have a bank account, a 401(k), an IRA or even an old mattress where you place your money? Are you "hoarding"? No? Then do not call me a "hoarder" simply because I am storing wealth in those items that have been a store of wealth since Biblical times.

Precious metals are no harder to secure than the rest of my preparations. It is clear that people who claim there is some magical level of difficulty in securing precious metals yet then claim they have no value fail to see the contradiction. Which drives me to your question of why do I think precious metals will be "worth a spit."

Currencies come and go. That is why they are called currencies. They are _currently_ the fake money that is used. Just as all economies and nations rise and fall, so do currencies. Precious metals, on the other hand, are the one constant in the world's history.

Will they be "worth a spit" during TEOTWAWKI times? Around my neck of the woods? Yes. I know several people who think like we do, who are raising all sorts of tasty critters for self-sufficiency as well as to sell. They'll take precious metals, now, as well as federal reserve notes. What will do you think they will not take in times of an economic collapse and the destruction of the currency, the dollar or the American Eagle?

Do as you like. I hate to see people not prepared, but what would happen to the price of precious metals if everyone decided it was important to store their wealth in those things which have withstood the test of time? It'd cost me more money to buy them, that's what.


----------



## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

The Aztec Empire is known to be one of the richest cultural societies in terms of gold and silver. Yet they used cocoa beans as commodity money for trading. Regardless of claims about universal gold value it has always been too valuable for its use by the common man as money. It has been tried briefly since the Roman Empire and failed. The Lydians made the first coins of electrum, a naturally occurring mixture of gold and silver. These coins were too rare to be adopted by the Greeks as money.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Precious metals are investment vehicles.
They hold value over long periods of time because they don't easily deteriorate.
They have little to no intrinsic value, but they are pretty and somewhat rare.
In the end, we have to face reality and realize they are nothing more than rocks.
Some give unjustified value to these rocks.
But, if society as a whole considers these rocks to be worth something, then they are.
I'm not betting on this when society is more worried about filling their bellies than lining their pocketbooks.

Trading with/for gold or silver is not in my plans. I can't feed, heat, or protect my family with it, so I'll have little *need* for it.
I currently own no gold or silver. *IF* I ever choose to, it will be as a manner to secure wealth until society has reestablished itself, if it ever does.
At that point, it will be sold for the new liquid currency of the time.

My trade goods will include alcohol, coffee, cigarettes, and other commodities of human vices.
These will always be in demand, and centuries have proven they are more trade-worthy than any precious metal.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

For the "common man," silver has been the standard for money. That's why it is used for domestic purpose. Gold being more precious, it has been used for international commerce.

Store your wealth in cocoa beans and you'll be pissed when they turn to dust.

Rome's "experiment" with silver coins wasn't the experiment. The experiment was the slow trend into fiat currency and the subsequent devaluation and destruction of the currency and empire. Roman coins are a great example. The older coins are in better condition than the newer ones, because they were made of silver. The newer ones, not made of precious metals, are in lousy shape. Not only that, but the ones made in the latter days of the empire are worth very little as curios. 
Of all empires, I think Rome is a great example for the U.S. and we citizens of it.

Prepare to survive many months on your own, first. Then, once you've prepared in that manner, prepare to thrive on the other side.


----------



## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

Denton said:


> For the "common man," silver has been the standard for money. That's why it is used for domestic purpose. Gold being more precious, it has been used for international commerce.
> 
> Store your wealth in cocoa beans and you'll be pissed when they turn to dust.
> 
> ...


To function completely as money, a material, even silver, cannot exist simply as an object; it requires a particular social and cultural system. If such an item is generally accepted in exchange for goods and services it is money. Absent that social cultural acceptance exchange system silver is just another commodity with varying value based on supply and demand. One only needs to look at a chart of silver's price variation over the last 15 years. A statical comparison of any other commodity in general demand will demonstrate their values change independent to each other.

That is not to say gold and silver are not worth collecting with discretionary money. The important thing is to know collecting is exactly what you are doing not investing.

Any money issued by any government or authority is fiat money. Regardless of form the objects issued they are only money through use as an exchange for goods and services. Otherwise they are mere tokens like mistletoe is an excuse for a kiss between willing individuals.

Regardless of cause inflation can destroy the money acceptance of an object as money. That is not the only thing that can result from an object's use as money.

As often cited the Federal Reserve can increase the money supply. Such action can, taken to extremes can render the dollar useless. However taken in view of global situations and other currencies, the dollar has become more valuable not less.

Therefore the increase in an object does not necessarily cause inflation. Too little money can result in deflation so it is important for the money object keep pace with its demand as money. Growing population and growing global use are two reasons the increase in dollar supply has been necessary.

Today we are experiencing inflation not because of the increase of dollars but because of global increased demand for goods and services. Both India and China have become societies of greater consumption. It is only by increases in manufacturing and growth of food by capitalism that has averted sure hyper-inflation.

Only during the Medieval Period did societies and cultures give up the use of money. Should such occur again then landlords not PM holder will have the powers of riches. All others will quickly give up their PM to be accepted into one of the landlords serfdom feudal system.

Be that as it may I still am a silver coin collector with no delusions that the value of my silver coins are subjective at best.


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I have diversified my holdings. I have multiple calibers that I could barter with if necessary. I firmly believe that copper plated brass will be a great product to barter with. And the ability to reload, well, 'nough said.


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

OK ok! I will tell the boys when they are going by plague victim the starved to deaths house, be sure and look for metal too (I agree with both, but if you don't prioritize famine and pestilence you won't need the gold)

In all seriousness, this thread makes me think maybe we will take some metal for trade. Didn't intend to, but...


----------



## big paul (Jul 14, 2014)

I have always gone on the old adage that "we cant eat precious metals", I don't think in a post SHTF world anyone will be swapping/bartering food or useable goods for a hunk of metal, I know I wont. but that's just my personal point of view.


----------



## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

There may become a time when the "sinful" items maybe the hottest to trade. Tobacco, drinking alcohol.....ect. Could you imagine in a few years what a chocolate candy bar might be worth to someone?


----------



## big paul (Jul 14, 2014)

Moonshinedave said:


> Could you imagine in a few years what a chocolate candy bar might be worth to someone?


it'll be worth what anyone wants to trade for it, the original price will be irrelevant.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

"Fiat" currency is currency, war scrip, etc. It is paper or alloy coin that is worthless on its own merit. With the collapse of the government or the currency itself (think federal reserve), it isn't even worth toilet paper. All currencies, fiat, war scrip, etc., go this way. Again, simple history. Precious metals, on the other hand, whether they are fashioned in the shape of a coin or other shapes, never, ever become worthless. Again, why buck thousands of years of history?

Inflation. To try and nail down the reason for inflation to one reason is as myopic as seeing preparation as being all or none with PMs. 

But, Denton, why is it that the price of precious metals so volatile? As is the case with inflation, there is more than one reason. One reason is that we buy precious metals with whatever currency our nation uses, and the "value" of those currencies are manipulated by whatever entity issues them. Another thing to consider is the derivative market manipulation by "Big Money."

Here is something I like about precious metals. Whether it be one ounce or ten thousand ounces; whatever I gather that is passed down from generation to generation will still be as fresh as the day I bought it. That is unlike anything else I could buy. While governments might want to confiscate it from time to time, precious metals can be hidden, unlike real estate.

Get it, don't get it, that is a personal decision and I hope the future is good for all of us. These, though, are the reasons I see PMs as a part of preparing for the future.

Good luck and good fortune to all!


----------



## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

Denton said:


> "Fiat" currency is currency, war scrip, etc. It is paper or alloy coin that is worthless on its own merit. With the collapse of the government or the currency itself (think federal reserve), it isn't even worth toilet paper. All currencies, fiat, war scrip, etc., go this way. Again, simple history. Precious metals, on the other hand, whether they are fashioned in the shape of a coin or other shapes, never, ever become worthless. Again, why buck thousands of years of history?
> 
> Inflation. To try and nail down the reason for inflation to one reason is as myopic as seeing preparation as being all or none with PMs.
> 
> ...


As far as the Federal Reserve goes you are half right. Nothing is forever. Will all central banks cease to be suddenly or be replaced in due course no one knows. And it is obvious, like the socialist minority, there is a minority of people that cannot comprehend an equation of balance with out the equal sign (money) having a utility use.

As for inflation; one cause; and myopic: you are less than a third correct. I was addressing the monetary cause or not. There are many causes that contribute to almost any event. But as with everything there are the vital few and the trivial many. Far too often those with an agenda can confuse the issue by citing one or more of the trivial many. At special cause times or environments in history one or more of today's trivial many may have been part of the vital few of history.

Given the fact that the dollar is stronger against other world currencies and gold and silver there is no evidence that Fed monetary policies are part of the vital few in today's inflationary environment. What it might be in the future can be nothing more than speculation.

However it is a fact emerging countries; third world countries or what ever name you want to hang on them are consuming more of everything especially food and energy. Therefore global demography is one of the vital few inflationary causes of today. Others might weather, cost of energy and raw material shortages.

We all have things for passage to future generations. I like imagine their future appreciated value but my guess is they are more about passing on ourselves. When my grand son gets my sons Fox 12ga it will represent 6 generations_value all subjective.


----------



## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

thepeartree said:


> This is something I think everyone needs to consider. I've been listening to preppers and survivalists for years and I'm willing to bet that 90%+ are hoarding gold and/or silver in one form or another. What I want to know is- How do those people know that either of those things will be worth spit post-SHTF?
> 
> I have my own plans on what to stock up on and they don't include heavy, hard-to-secure metal.


I have to disagree I bet if we took a vote on who stocks up on silver and gold it would be less than 40%.

Two people both spend $5000 one stocked up on goods that will be very difficult to obtain in a shtf situation. The other spend mostly on Silver and Gold.
For the first year after a major SHTF event. The the one that stocked up on Silver and Gold will be trading it for needed goods that are at such an inflated price that his $5000 dollars spent on silver and gold would be luck to buy 1/10 of what the person that spent his on goods has. If a person has enough goods to trade he will be the one with the silver and gold if thing start to get better.


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The prepared person will have stored water to drink and a way to replenish it. 
The prepared person will have food stored to eat and a manner in which to restore what is used.
The prepared person will store medical and personal hygene items and have a way to restock what they need.
The prepared person will have wealth and a way to preserve that wealth for use when the society is reformed.

Gold and silver is not an investment it is a way to store your wealth during uncertain times for use when the times are good again.

After the government is re-established how will you pay your taxes? The money you had stored is now worthless and the tax man won't trade for potatoes or coffee. 
Gold and silver are just as much a part of being prepared as is water, food, or shelter. You can't eat it for nourishment, drink it to quench your thirst or use it to keep yourself healthy or clean but you need it AFTER the shit has been cleaned off the floor and the fan to hold onto the things you need in a civilized world.


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> I agree completely. The chances of counterfeit "anything" will be a real problem. Is there powder in the shells? Are these really antibiotics? What is the quality of this old fuel? Trading and bartering wont be as promising as we might hope it to be.


exactly what I was thinking...how will you take apart shells to see the powder, how old is the medicine


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Can somebody list for me the periods during the last 2,000 years when gold and silver had no commercial value


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

While I am sure there are locations where gold and silver were of little consequence to the local people the metals always had some value.

In the USA during the depression the wealthy and psuedo-wealthy traded their jewelry for food and got far less than the "spot price" for their "valuables". Much like classic art the value drops when money is tight but returns when the money has a better foundation.

When people are starving you can pretty much charge what you want for a few days worth of food.


----------



## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

I have been stock piling the following fiat currency. 
The world’s major economic powers are all suffering from the economic downturn but even the most cynical doomsayer is sure we’ll get ourselves out of this mess—eventually. Rare are those instances in which entire economies are disrupted to the point – typically as a result of rampant inflation, or hyper inflation – that an entire form of currency is discarded, reformed or replaced. But it does happen. There are invariably external issues (military, political, etc) at play,* which result in what can generally be referred to the ‘failure of a currency’, and each situation is unique. The following is a list of nine notable examples in which currencies became so devalued that they were eventually replaced:

Germany Weimer Republic 1922-1923

wikimedia

By the end of 1922 Germany found it was no longer able to pay the war reparations set forth by the Treaty of Versailles. French and Belgian armies responded by occupying Germany’s most productive, and industrial regions. German industrialists then ordered workers strikes, which put further pressure on an already frail economy. The German government countered this situation by printing unbacked currency with which it meant to pay both workers benefits, as well as its delinquent international debt. Supply and demand followed: too much money was circulated, and the money was soon considered worthless. In 1922, the largest denomination of the Papiermark was 50,000. A year later it was 100 Trillion. This means that by December 1923, the exchange rate with the US Dollar was 4.2 Trillion to 1. It is estimated that by November 1923, the yearly inflation rate was considered 325,000,000%. This means that the cost of goods were increasing about every two days. As a result, the Rentenmark was introduced at a rate of 1 to 1 Trillion of the Papiermark. Reparation payments eventually continued, and France and Belgium agreed to leave the country.

Hungary 1945-1946

wikimedia

The Great Depression put an initial strain on the Austrian Pengo, originally introduced with great strength as a replacement to the Austrian-Hungarian Korona in 1926, per the Treaty of Versailles. Next, the associated effects of World War II would run their course. In 1944, the Hungarian Pengo’s highest denomination was the 1,000 note. A year later it was 10,000,000. And by mid-1946, it was 100,000,000,000,000,000,000. Realizing that this type of hyperinflation and denomination increase was not sustainable – and after 20 short years – the Pengo was replaced by the Forint. There are famous pictures of this event, which include street sweepers cleaning the sea of Pengo notes that Hungarians so eagerly discarded. At the time of this replacement, the Pengo to Forint exchange, was Four Hundred Octillion (That’s 29 Zeros) to one. That same Forint would exchange for 11.74 to $1USD. Inflation has since continued at a much more subdued rate, and the current exchange is valued at approximately 195.2 Forint to 1 $USD. It is estimated that at the time of replacement, the value of all Hungarian currency in circulation equaled less than one-thousandth of one US dollar!

Chile 1971-1981

wikimedia

Shortly after the ascension to the office of president, Socialist President Salvador Allende, decreed that many of Chile’s leading industries would be nationalized. Owing predominately to management problems (with bureaucrats overseeing the market) this government soon began hemorrhaging money, and in order to subsidize the loss, the Chilean Central Bank began printing unbacked currency at an alarming rate. This resulted in an inflation rate of 600% by the end of 1972; inflation eventually skyrocketed to 1200% by the end of 1973. This was the same year General Augusto Pinochet’s US-backed coup d’état seized control and installed his populist military regime. Shortly thereafter, in 1985, the Escudo (1960-1975) was replaced by the New Peso at a rate of 1,000 to 1. Except for a slight depression in 1981, the Chilean economy recovered, largely due to the government’s decision to sell off newly acquired State-owned enterprises. The rest of Pinochet’ s tenure in Chile, however, is entirely another story.

Argentina 1975-1992

wikimedia

After unprecedented annual growth rates and record trade surpluses, panic and political unrest broke out between Argentine Trotskyists and the Perón loyalists, in the wake of the 1973 oil crisis. Conflict came to a head in 1975, when a sharp recession looked inevitable. The Argentine government then exacerbated the situation by refusing to borrow in order to cover its budget and trade deficits. In 1975, the largest Argentine Peso denomination was 1,000. A year later the 5,000 note was introduced. In March 1976, a violent coup was staged by the country’s military leaders, who promised to bring stability to the region. By ’79, there was a 10,000 Peso banknote and by 1981, the Argentine Central Bank had introduced a 1,000,000 Peso note. The country’s economy declined, further worsening the situation – in between 1981 and 1982, Argentina’s GDP fell 12%, the worst single year decline since The Great Depression. When the currency was reformed in 1983, 1 Peso Argentino was exchanged for 10,000 of the “old” Peso. Then in 1985, the ‘Austral’ was introduced, which replaced the Peso Argentino at a rate of 1-to-1,0000 Then yet again, in 1992, the New Peso replaced the Austral this time at 1-to-10,000. This end result of this experience – in many circles referred to as, “The March of Zeros” – equated to a 1 New Peso equal to 100,000,000,000 Pre-’83 Pesos.

Peru 1988-1991

wikimedia

During the 1980s, Peru, like many Latin American countries introduced a number of trade liberalization polices. At the same time, government increased public spending, privatized enterprise, and neglected to service the nation’s external debt. As a result, by the end of the 1990s, Peru’s already small economy – which once had been enticing avenue for foreign direct investment – was experiencing not only negative economic growth, but also deficits of all types, as well as hyperinflation. While hyperinflation became apparent, the Peruvian government replaced the Peru “Old” Sol with the Inti, in 1985, at a rate of 1,000 to 1. The largest denomination of this new currency, was a 1,000 note. In two years, monthly inflation would increase by a rate of 132% in September 1988, and later 400% by September 1990. In order to facilitate the new higher prices of goods and services, new notes were introduced such as the 10,000,000 Inti note by 1991. Again, Peruvian government decided again to replace the currency, this time with the Neuvo Sol, at a rate of 1,000,000,000 to 1. The result was a currency that was worth one billion times that of only six years before.

Angola 1991 – 1999

wikimedia

Angola’s story is an unfortunate one, and while it is today one of the fastest growing economies in the world, the country was plagued by civil war from 1975 to 2002. This conflict placed a large strain on the nation’s economy, as well as its currency, the Kwanza. In 1991, the largest note was the 50,000 kwanza denomination. By ’94, there was the 500,000 banknote. In 1995, the Readjusted Kwanza (Kwanza reajustado) was introduced for 1,000 Kwanzas. The new currency also had a 500,000 denomination. When the country changed currencies in again in 1999, the New Kwanza was introduced, exchanging for 1,000,000 of the reajustados; by this time, the new currency was equal to one billion of the pre-’91 Kwanzas.

Yugoslavia 1992-1995

wikimedia

Between 1988 and 1989, the Yugoslavian Dinar’s largest denomination switched from 50,000 to 2,000,000 notes. The New Dinar replaced the Dinar in 1992, at a rate of 1 to 10, with the highest denomination being 50,000. By 1993, this was 10,000,000,000. In answer to this sharp increase inflation, the government simply removed six zeros, meaning that the “Newer” Dinar replaced the “Old Dinar” at a rate of 1 to 1,000,000. In the next year the currency was replaced yet again, this time at the rate of 1 to 1,000,000,000! By January 1995, prices had increased a quadrillion percent in two years, and as a result the German Mark became the country’s Fiat currency. It is estimated that during the height of hyperinflation (December 1994), inflation was increasing by a rate of 100% per day. In fact many Yugoslavians during this time sought to forgo paying their bills for as long as possible, because it several weeks the amount owed would seem relatively cheap!

Belarus 1994-2002


Shortly after the Cold War, many of the newly independent Eastern Bloc states began to experience the pains of a currency fluctuation, and moving towards a market-based economy. At the time of independence, Belarus was had a relatively highly developed economy, and it’s citizens experienced a standard of living among the highest of eastern Europe. In 1993, the largest Belorussian note denomination in circulation was the 5,000 Rubles. By the end of the decade, this had increased to 5,000,000 notes. In an effort to displace this, the government replaced the new Ruble at an exchange rate of 1 to 1,000 “old” Ruble. Presently, the highest denomination is the 100,000 note, which is equal to 100,000,000 1993 Ruble. Many people credit the high rates of inflation to the leadership of Lukashenko who has been in office since 1994. Today 80% of the country’s industries are still nationalized.

Zimbabwe 2000-2009

When Zimbabwe became an independent African state in 1980, the Zimbabwe dollar was actually valued higher than the US dollar, at a rate of 1 to 1.25. Through a series of questionable race-based land seizures and rampant money-printing, the Zimbabwe dollar began to experience rampant inflation by the early 21st century. By 2004, inflation reached a then-all time high of 624%, before going below triple digits in 2005, and then surged up to to 1,730% in 2006. In August 2006, the currency was replaced with a New Zimbabwe dollar at a rate of 1 to 1,000. By mid-2007, inflation reached a yearly increase of 11,000%. By May 2008, 100 Million and 250 Million New Zimbabwe Dollars (ZWD) denominated notes were released, an


----------



## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

Silver and gold have always had value, and always will.
Get your food stuffs, water, defense, etc. in order first.
Get some PM'S of whatever color you choose and hang on to them.
They WILL be valuable.
If you choose not to buy any, good, that leaves more for me.


----------



## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> Can somebody list for me the periods during the last 2,000 years when gold and silver had no commercial value


That is hardly the point. A drop from $35 to $19 in less than a dozen years is more to the point.


----------



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Fascinating. All the economic ups and downs over time...... devaluation, inflation, hyperinflation. With hard times or SHTF you will have need of trade goods for day to day existence and a vehicle for wealth preservation when the crisis eases to best survive and thrive. That is if you are optimistic.


----------



## mack0369 (Jul 22, 2014)

I'm going with sealed booze, dip/cigarettes, sealed anti-biotics, and sealed ammo (test fire a few randomly selected rounds to show function). Big 3 - ATF should always work


----------



## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

gold and silver conduct electricity very well..better than copper...other than that to me they are useless in a post shtf scenario


----------



## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Agree. Not super effective in defense, mostly for small game, and not reloadable.



RNprepper said:


> I figure 22LR will be like gold.


----------



## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Ragnarök said:


> gold and silver conduct electricity very well..better than copper...other than that to me they are useless in a post shtf scenario


So your tribe, has a trade deal with my tribe, I have the extra food you need, but you have nothing I need, what long term resource do you have of value that is worth trading for that extra food...

Come next year, my tribes crops fail, yours is a success, I need to trade for food for winter, you have the excess food, would that gold be worth trading for that excess food?? As that's the only resource I have as this time you need nothing...

That's the main point been made in a doomsday scenario with gold etc

As tribes and trade will be common between groups just look into history


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Trade will indees be common, but it will be a loooong time before gold is used. Nobody who bought it under the fiat system will accept that it has lost most of its "value" with that system gone.
An ounce that might have been worth 1,300 dollar menu burgers won't get you 20 burgers from me when my extra beef is a higher commodity.
As for trading between tribes with those who have no food to trade, stick with non-sustaining perishables like coffee, sugar, salt, or tobacco. They will always be in demand, and often more valuable than your shiny rock.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

I will stay with my silver for bartering. If SHTF yes, the food items, the toilet paper, booze, ammo etc.. will be great bartering items.... BUT, people will eat the food, shoot the ammo, wipe with the paper etc.. and then what will they use to barter? Thats where the silver comes in... In every civilization when they wanted to create a money system it always started with gold or silver (Diamonds too, but i dont have any)

I will never barter off my supplies, I have enough ammo for my family to defend themselves and hunt for food. I'll wait for civilization to start back up and then I can buy things with my shiny rocks


----------



## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

Doc Holliday said:


> I will stay with my silver for bartering. If SHTF yes, the food items, the toilet paper, booze, ammo etc.. will be great bartering items.... BUT, people will eat the food, shoot the ammo, wipe with the paper etc.. and then what will they use to barter? Thats where the silver comes in... In every civilization when they wanted to create a money system it always started with gold or silver (Diamonds too, but i dont have any)


That is a libertarian myth aka ignorant: the Aztec's had plenty of gold and silver yet used cacao beans as a common barter commodity.

Throughout the world, commodities from salt to tobacco, from logs to dried fish, and from rice to cloth have been used as money at various times in history.

India used almonds. Guatemalans corn; the ancient Babylonians and Assyrians barley. Natives of the Nicobar Islands coconuts, and the Mongolians bricks of tea. Philippines, Japan, Burma, and other parts of Southeast Asia, standardized measures of rice served as commodity money.

I could go on but reasonable people will get the point others will not.


----------



## mwatter111611 (Aug 21, 2014)

The 4 things that show a man's worth dating all the way back to the bible are Gold, Silver, Salt, and Land. 

However people will trade things they need and for centuries it used ti be commonplace for a man to offer up his best pig/cow/goat whatever to a womans family in exchange for her hand in marriage. 

As of recent, in any economic downturn tobacco and alcohol sales go through the roof so these would be considered valuable items as well. Honestly though you will trade anything for whatever you need.


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

There you have the answers. 1- Obviously SHTF means different things to different people; 2- Some people, perhaps a lot, believe in the intrinsic value of gold and silver, but not all by any means.

It depends a great deal on how bad the crash is. If we're knocked too down the ladder, gold and silver won't be worth much in day to day living. If the shit isn't very deep, then they become extremely valuable. However, food/ammo/etc. will ALWAYS have a high value. So, hoard it if you can and it's on top of survival supplies, but not if your supplies suffer.


----------



## Zed (Aug 14, 2014)

I'll give you a Scenario
'A' has guns, ammo, Wine, tools, etc. He wants food, water and medicine..
'B' has food, water, etc...He wants medicines.
'C' has medicines, equipment etc...he wants food & water.
How 'A' is going to get food and water? If 'B' and 'C' has no current need of ammo, guns...and don't know whether they need in future.....
SO the Barter system as you say...won't function smoothly....But if 'A' gives gold and buys food...Next time 'B' and 'C' again give back the gold and buy ammo, gun..

That is what i want to point out...on-spot basis whatever you say, that ammo, wine etc may be useful...But for longer span of trade after SHTF...Gold and Silver still retains value.....the value may be 1 or 1000 but still value will be there.


----------



## Derma-Redi (Aug 23, 2014)

no one should have all their eggs in one basket. G&S have been traded for thousands of years so that is why people save it for SHTF scenarios.
But most of these people know it would be wise to have other items or skills to trade if need be. ammo, medical supplies, water, seeds, tools etc etc etc.
"Knowledge Weighs Nothing"


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

"Knowledge weighs nothing" - but has the price all resist, some loathe and most won't do at all. 

Unless trade returns to that place where "a man is his worth and a monks work is worth his meal", meaning a truly free trade environment of goods and services conducive to free enterprise, your "terrarium" will still have the same exclusionary Capitalism that has wrecked on us.
Gold etc will have very little value until way down the line, which is good for Gomer pyle, because he's got "watchin' at night" to trade and everyday, he's gonna want something to eat. In my mind, that is what people will most naturally do in the beginning.

"Your gold, says the devil, I will take from your hands in piles and I will empty your treasuries to a coin, so that you will have the memory of what I took. An ounce for an ounce, gold against plague. 
As for Gomer pyle, he watches at night. Got to keep him."


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

PalmettoTree said:


> That is hardly the point. A drop from $35 to $19 in less than a dozen years is more to the point.


No, Maine-Marine's point is more to the point and yours is more of an explanation of why his point is more to the point. Currency and derivative manipulation has more to do with the fact that this is a great time for buying silver (priced at 18.63, at the moment).
In other words, the number of units of currency necessary to buy silver has more to do with the current value of the currency and less to do with the precious metal, itself. Take out the derivatives markets and the manipulation of fiat currency by central banks and we'd have a much more stable "value" of precious metals.


----------



## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

Denton said:


> No, Maine-Marine's point is more to the point and yours is more of an explanation of why his point is more to the point. Currency and derivative manipulation has more to do with the fact that this is a great time for buying silver (priced at 18.63, at the moment).
> In other words, the number of units of currency necessary to buy silver has more to do with the current value of the currency and less to do with the precious metal, itself. Take out the derivatives markets and the manipulation of fiat currency by central banks and we'd have a much more stable "value" of precious metals.


That is not so! Neither currency value nor goods and services have moved 40%. Only the price of silver has. The price is real regardless of the cause. I have not done the analysis to prove the cause of silver price changes during this period and have not seen analysis done by someone else. So I do not know the root cause. When one looks at the value of their silver at a given point in time that is factual.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

PalmettoTree said:


> That is not so! Neither currency value nor goods and services have moved 40%. Only the price of silver has. The price is real regardless of the cause. I have not done the analysis to prove the cause of silver price changes during this period and have not seen analysis done by someone else. So I do not know the root cause. When one looks at the value of their silver at a given point in time that is factual.


I did mention derivatives market, didn't I? I did. The market that is used by those who profit in the forced use of bills of credit (fiat paper). You have not done the analysis, but others have.

When one bases the value of a precious metal by looking at how many units of a baseless and temporary bill of credit can buy at any given moment, one is short-sighted at best.


----------



## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

ammo, water, seeds, food, diapers, soap tooth brushes, shoes, coats, socks... save yer old shoes & clothes... maxi pads that's always a sure bet.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

shotlady said:


> ammo, water, seeds, food, diapers, soap tooth brushes, shoes, coats, socks... save yer old shoes & clothes... maxi pads that's always a sure bet.


Do NOT forget toilet paper!


----------



## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

ahhh yes, toilet paper. butt Ill be keeping that.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

shotlady said:


> ahhh yes, toilet paper. butt Ill be keeping that.


Oh, I thought we were making a list of consumable items we all need.

_Butt_, I get your point. :lol:

I love a good pun!


----------



## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Alpha Mike Foxtrot said:


> I agree completely. The chances of counterfeit "anything" will be a real problem. Is there powder in the shells? Are these really antibiotics? What is the quality of this old fuel? Trading and bartering wont be as promising as we might hope it to be.


I have some genuine counterfeit imitation M855 rounds. Real screamers, and ain't nobody getting them loaded.

I just made them


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

Zed said:


> I'll give you a Scenario
> 'A' has guns, ammo, Wine, tools, etc. He wants food, water and medicine..
> 'B' has food, water, etc...He wants medicines.
> 'C' has medicines, equipment etc...he wants food & water.
> ...


Ah, so you want to discuss barter systems : )

Well, I would say that there is still plenty of room in that barter. First off, you can trade labor, either at B or C's location or wherever they need it. A second choice might be that A has a skill and some equipment that the others don't, like a reloading workshop, for instance. Once you get together, you can always work something out simply because no-one can cover every piece of equipment and skill. Even if there is NO point of immediate need, you can still offer that labor in the future. And any deals are likely to be local, so if someone tries to stiff somebody, then EVERYONE is going to know it and it'll be the last time.

I think people will figure out pretty quickly that honest dealing is the only sane way to go. And I still don't see a need for s&g (silver and gold). Unless you're wanting some jewellry made : )


----------



## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

PaulS said:


> The prepared person will have stored water to drink and a way to replenish it.
> The prepared person will have food stored to eat and a manner in which to restore what is used.
> The prepared person will store medical and personal hygene items and have a way to restock what they need.
> The prepared person will have wealth and a way to preserve that wealth for use when the society is reformed.
> ...


Taxes? Government? OK, that's your assumption for that scenario. Civilized world??? I think we lost that a loooonng time ago, if ever had it. That's why we're arming ourselves- we've lost trust in the government's ability to protect us.

One thing we have to guard against is wishful thinking. What's something that most people are against? Government. We've had an overdose of government, it seems to me. Some people may decide to do without for a while. If that happens, then it's going to be a while before any form of money (some items with value above that of utility) appears. I think even money will be locally defined if barter isn't enough.


----------

