# What American game/predator can't .308 take down?



## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

I've never tried to take a bear with it, but I've never had a reason too. I only hunt game for food and down south I've never had a problem with any predators. But what can it take and what can't it if needs be?

I know I may be down south now, but I wasn't planning on staying and have been looking north. 

::redsnipe::


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## wesley762 (Oct 23, 2012)

a 308 will take anything down in North America, Deer, bear, Moose, Elk. Unless you plan on going to hunt a elephant you should be good.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

Does elephant fry up well?


:mrgreen:



I've seen it drop really big wild pig like a bad dream, but wonder about a big Grizzly.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

EVER the devil's advocate... Godzilla did attack New York in 2000, and WOULD presented an issue according to Hollywood.

That small problem resolved, a .308, a 12ga for turkey, rabbit, such, and a .22lr, complete a nicely rounded arsenal for all North America IMO. The other stuff like M44's, AK's, SKS's, .44 Magnums, 22-250, are all just gravy. 

And CCW is a _whole_ other thread!


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm 12 gauge empty right now. I've never been a flying bird hunter though and that's about all I can see one for that my rifles won't do. I prefer rifles and have seemingly sold every shotgun I've had. It might be nice to have a nice over under. My father had one and sold it when I was young. I would have loved to have had it and I really should cover that base I think. One of these days. If I happen to run into Godzilla, I'm lighting him up. I do like lizard and snake. There tasty and I can't see how Godzilla wouldn't be.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

If you can not kill it with a 308 at a reasonable range .
I am not hunting it. 308 will kill anything this side of the pond.


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

a 308 will dispatch any critter on planet earth a PH used to hunt elephant with 7x57 in africa now it may not be ideal or legal to hunt elephant these days with 7mm but there is nothing that will survive a well placed shot from a 308.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Didn't Obummer make it illegal to shoot at Predators or any other drones?


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

I agree with the above post, a 308 will kill any living thing on mother earth.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

What will a 308 kill that a 22LR won't?? What will a stick sting and another stick kill that a 22lr won't??


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

While I generally agree with rickfromillinois, . . . we're talking prepping here, . . . and my .308 will be my hunting rifle for everything sheep size and above.

Prepping involves the probablity of a "eat or starve" scenario, . . . and the "eat" just may have to come from the hunt, . . . where I will not really be thinking much about the animal I am hunting. 

I will be thinking about my stomach, . . . hoping it is not growling enough to warn everything away from where I am.

But I also have no qualms about knocking heads with the biggest stinking grizz the planet ever produced. My .308 I will have with me in the field has a 20 round box magazine and will be loaded "for bear" so to speak, . . . and if we come together, . . . I won't really worry about being seriously humane, . . . but rather about being seriously fed.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Infidel (Dec 22, 2012)

I agree the .308 is fully capable of taking any critter in the lower 48, however if I were in grizzly country I'd want something in the realm of .444 Marlin, .45-70 Govt., or .450 Marlin. My reasoning is I'd want something that I could be fairly well assured that if I was charged would penetrate the skull of a grizzly. Would the .308 do that? Probably but I'm sure any of the aforementioned cartridges would with a big heavy bullet. All that said, I think the .308 is a great choice for an all around rifle for the lower 48.

-Infidel


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## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

The 357 Mag at the muzzle shooting a 180 gr projectile produces 580 ft lbs of energy 
The 308 at 1000 yards shooting a 175 gr projectile produces 547 ft lbs of energy
so to put this into perspective I dont reckon there is anything that can survive a well placed point blank shot from a 357 Mag or a well placed shot from a 308 at distance. Kinetik Energy = 0.5 * bullet weight / 7000 / 32.2 * velocity ^ 2


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

There aint nothing a 308 and a good appropriate load wont take in North America. Now that being said, were I facing a charging Grizzly Bear I would prefer something with a little more bullet frontal area and weight...ie a 416 Weatherby or bigger! That's not to say a 308 with a 180 gr Nosler Partition over a max charge of powder couldn't pick up the check. But I doubt you will be facing such a adversary on a regular basis unless you live in Alaska.

The 308 with bullets 180 gr and under gives up very little to the 30-06 and few will argue with merit that the 30-06 is inadequate. Its my main hunting rifle at the moment and Im down south too and have made several excursions north with it and its never left me wanting. With 150-165 gr bullets its a excellent flat shooting plains rifle. With 168-175gr match bullets, its very accurate at long ranges. With a 180 Gr Barnes X or Partition its capable of smashing big heavy bone and deep penetration on Elk, Moose and Bear. Yeah I have a 7mm Rem Mag that shoots flatter and faster, yeah I have a 300 Win Mag and a 338 Win Mag that throws heavier and in some cases bigger bullets but they are much more expensive to shoot and the recoil considerably more and wont kill anything more dead than my 308 will.

As for the 12 guage...load it with a good slug load and its a brutal stopper on anything under 600 lbs on the hoof at reasonable ranges!!! Beyond that the soft lead slugs don't penetrate deep enough on a consistent basis to give me a warm fuzzy from what I have seen.


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## pharmer14 (Oct 27, 2012)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> There aint nothing a 308 and a good appropriate load wont take in North America. Now that being said, were I facing a charging Grizzly Bear I would prefer something with a little more bullet frontal area and weight...ie a 416 Weatherby or bigger! That's not to say a 308 with a 180 gr Nosler Partition over a max charge of powder couldn't pick up the check. But I doubt you will be facing such a adversary on a regular basis unless you live in Alaska.
> 
> The 308 with bullets 180 gr and under gives up very little to the 30-06 and few will argue with merit that the 30-06 is inadequate. Its my main hunting rifle at the moment and Im down south too and have made several excursions north with it and its never left me wanting. With 150-165 gr bullets its a excellent flat shooting plains rifle. With 168-175gr match bullets, its very accurate at long ranges. With a 180 Gr Barnes X or Partition its capable of smashing big heavy bone and deep penetration on Elk, Moose and Bear. Yeah I have a 7mm Rem Mag that shoots flatter and faster, yeah I have a 300 Win Mag and a 338 Win Mag that throws heavier and in some cases bigger bullets but they are much more expensive to shoot and the recoil considerably more and wont kill anything more dead than my 308 will.
> 
> As for the 12 guage...load it with a good slug load and its a brutal stopper on anything under 600 lbs on the hoof at reasonable ranges!!! Beyond that the soft lead slugs don't penetrate deep enough on a consistent basis to give me a warm fuzzy from what I have seen.


If I were facing a charging grizzly, I would probably be hoping I was carrying a gun without a scope on it... which narrows it down to 12 gauge or .45 out of my current arsenal.


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## pharmer14 (Oct 27, 2012)

rickfromillinois said:


> I don't believe that the original question mentioned anything about prepping, it asked about hunting. Is the .308 a good round for prepping? Yes. Is it a good round for HUNTING anything in the United States? I don't think so. As I mentioned earlier, I doubt that any professional outfitter would recommend using a .308 round to hunt grizzly bears.


Yeah a 308 will kill a rabbit or squirrel, but there probably won't be much left to eat!

The 308 is a great gun. I have one and love it. But I wouldn't be using it for small game. Pick up a good 22 and a shotgun too.

And that's really the challenge of a gun for prepping.... Finding a gun that works for the little stuff as good as it does the big.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

.308 isn't a bad gun and under ideal conditions you can kill anything with it, I don't own one as there are a lot of better caliber so ut there that allow you to shoot even if the shot is not ideal.

I hunt mostly elk and can count the years I haven't shot one much easier than the years I did.

My favorite is a 300 Weatherby magnum, I use 150 grain Barnes X hand loads right at 3500 fps. At 500 yards it drops 21 inches at my elevation, sighted in 2" high at 100 yards. A308 is gonna drop about 50 inches with the same bullet making it a much more challenging shot, anything over 500 yards s not doable for most hunters n field conditions.

My favorite non typical story was shooting a 4x5 bull at 300 yards, his vitals were behind a tree at at that range I didn't want to try a head shot so I shot through the 12 inch tree and killed the elk. No way I could do that with a 308.

My point is having more gun than you need will help you harvest more consistently. I don't count deer as they are so easy to get around here it isn't funny, I believe the hunter harvest ratio is around 80%


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I get so sick of people saying if a .505 Gibbs can kill it so can a .22. A .22 LR is utterly useless for anything larger than a damned rabbit. People poach on our property left and right and they use .22 rifles at night so no one will hear them. I have found deer that have run from who knows where aspirating blood and laid up in a thicket all night suffering. Shot placement was never an issue. right through one lung and deep into the next. The .22 just doesn't have the kinetic energy to provide the necessary wound channel and trauma. If you stick a needle through your liver, you will die. But you will suffer for a long time. The .22 LR is a SMALL GAME CARTRIDGE ONLY!!!!!!! If you are using it for home defense or plan on it taking down an elk, you are a sadistic idiot.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

US government would disagree. How many years now have they been equipping troops with .22 caliber? Since about 1968?

It IS an arguable subject to be sure, but my personal feelings are it's all about shot placement. Half the slaughter houses in the world use or have used .22lr to kill cattle at one time or another. Farmers still do it.

How many deer have run miles and miles after being shot with a bow? Yet everybody and their brother thinks its perfectly fine and even brag about it. If your confident in getting a head shot with a .22lr, I'd bet my money on you making a quicker cleaner kill than anybody with a bow.

Are there better choices for deer hunting? GOD YES. Will .22lr do the job in a pinch? YES


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

rickfromillinois said:


> There is a big difference in the ballistics between a 5.56 mm round and a .22 lr.
> 
> Yes, when we used to slaughter hogs at home we used a .22 LR round to shoot them in the head, which only knocked them out, then we cut their throats before they regained consciousness. Most slaughter houses do not use a .22 LR to kill animals. They either use a pneumatic bolt or a sledge hammer. It's cheaper and more affective.


IMO, A .22" hole is still a .22" hole no matter how fancy the gun it came out of. The ridiculous theory behind 5.56 / .223 is that "the bullets will tumble and do more damage". NOTE. RIDICULOUS. Yes this phenomena DOES happen, under very specific conditions (specific ammunition, specific barrel threading, specific barrel length, at a specific / narrow range, under specific environmental conditions, at specific depths of penetration, through specific material). Then you throw this wonderful round in a weapon that is a complete mechanical A hole... Boy, who wouldn't want to rely on _that_ to save their lives?!?

Benefits of a .22lr are commonality, price, recoil, compact weapons, low noise level, weapon and ammo variety, it goes on and on.

Benefits of a .223 / 5.56? .............. Shooting ground squirrels at long distances with cheap crap ammo, because 22-250 don't come in trendy black rifles?

To each their own though. I still say taking deer with head shots from .22's is _far_ more humane than any bow. But again, JMO.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Are we really so poor that we can't afford to use a 12 gauge slug to destroy a cow? Call me, I'll send you a box. Please don't shoot a deer or cow with a .22. 

I know we have been equipping troops with .223 for a long time. That ain't exactly a .22 LR. It's actually legal to shoot deer with a .223 in Tennessee now. I preferred the .243 minimum. 

In a pinch, if my family was starving? I'd kill whatever would feed them with my wiener if I had to, but I have plenty of 12 gauge slugs, .30-06, .270, 7.62x54R, X39, .45 acp, .50 caliber muzzleloader, .40 S&W, 9mm, etc. etc. etc.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

LOL, the first animal I ever saw head shot was when I got to wondering around at the local slaughter house and heard the .22lr shots... They went limp and dropped like a ton of bricks. It was an experience for a 4 or 5 year old to see!  My dad told me they use .22 shorts because it doesn't typically come out the other side.

The simple fact is, anybody thinks a .22lr won't penetrate a skull, hasn't tried.

A number of states prohibit .223 for deer hunting. And SHOULD. To many hunters can't even hit a chest cavity. Much less make a head shot.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Our slaughter house uses something that looks like a small jackhammer that uses a .22 charge to send a spike into the skull. I have never seen a .22 projectile kill a bull, but I'm not in the business either. I know the Swamp People kill alligators with them all day long. Suffice to say, if I was being charged by a grizzly bear I would much rather have a .500 Alaskan or a .338 rifle than a .22 short. Wouldn't anyone?

To get back on topic, my uncle's .308 was the first high powered rifle I ever shot at 6 years old. He later killed a huge black bear with that rifle near the Rogue River Valley in Oregon. The sow's hide is still on his wall and he still hunts elk with that same gun.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I'm not a fan of the .556/.223 for hunting other than varmints. I did see a human shot with one. It liquified everything in his chest cavity. Game over. Every time the paramedics compressed you could hear everything sloshing around.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

Yes. The 308 will hunt anything in N. America - Provided you have the skills to get the bullet to the kill zone.

Same is true of a dozen or so rounds
308
30-30
30-06
7.62 x 54R
7mm
300 Win Mag
There are probably a handful or more in this range and all will get the job done.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

rickfromillinois said:


> ...The closest that I have come to finding is the 30-06 that you can use 150gn bullets for deer and go all the way up to a 220 gn bullet for large game, but it still wouldn't be my first choice for hunting a large carnivore like a large bear, and the 30-06 is my main hunting rifle since I mainly hunt deer and hogs.


I've always said that the venerable 30-06 is the most versatile round - due largely to the variety of projectiles offered in that size. I've even seen 30-06 in a 96gn bullet. I'm not sure how or what or why you would do that, but I guess somebody needed it. And 96? Can't we call it an even 100?

Point is... Rick is right. The 308 is a good hunting round and a great survival round, but if you were starting from the ground up, and had nothing invested yet, there is another alternative, the 30-06. And it is probably a little broader in scope of application.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

.308/7.62x51mm is the better survival to me than .30-06, simply because it's in use in so many modern weapons today where .30-06 isn't anymore. I agree that no round is perfect and I don't think .308/7.62x51mm is, just a good round and solid prepper/survivalist caliber choice. If I run into a Grizzly with my M1A and he/she doesn't want to go there way and let me go mine, than I'll keep shooting till it's no longer a threat or I'm dead if the Grizzly doesn't get stopped by it. Can't live forever anyways. I appreciate all the opinions and info on the subject fellas. When I do move, I may add on a rifle of more substantial caliber if it comes to it I need it.



:smile:


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

For generation the 30-30 and 30.06 where the main stay in America.
The 30-30 was and is an excellent shorter range game rifle taken a lot of deer at 0-150 yards.
The 30.06 was used in the 1903 and the M1 grand.
The 308 replaced the 30.06 of a few reasons.
NATO
308 was a some what flatter shooting round
Machine guns that were being designed used it.
308 has become the mid to long range go to round.
And because it did the number of options for loads has grown making it and even better option.

Bear are not that hard to stop Bother in law has taken two with a bow


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

The .308 will do its job as long as the shooter can do theirs.nuff said.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Lets clear up some myths while we acknowledge that the 308 is capable of killing at least most of the game animals in the USA.
The 308 does not shoot flatter than the 3006. The military switched to the 308 because it gave nearly the same ballistics with a smaller, lighter, cartridge. With modern powders, and the same weight bullet the 3006 has a slight edge on the 308. It is not enough to make a difference in the taking of game as long as the shots are well placed but the difference exists. The difference becomes evident when shooting 180 grain or heavier bullets but is measurable with the lighter bullets as well. The difference comes from greater powder capacity. The 3006 can hold more powder and therefore has the velocity advantage as long as the pressures are the same. The largest animals in the states are the moose and grizzly bear. The 308 and 3006 are capable of taking these animals at closer ranges using larger bullets but they are far from the ideal cartridge in that task.
The ideal cartridge is a misnomer because the Alaskan Natives have been taking polar bears with rifles in 22 to 243 center-fire calibers since before WW II. Both the 308 and 3006 have more potential than any of those smaller cartridges but they are more expensive to shoot and having to import ammo and supplies to Alaska means the smaller cartridges are more popular. 

After having said all that it is still possible for a good shot to take any North American game with a 308. Whether a hunter has the skills (woodland and shooting) to get that shot is a question that each hunter has to decide for himself. I would not feel "under-gunned" carrying either the 308 or the 3006.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

pharmer14 said:


> If I were facing a charging grizzly, I would probably be hoping I was carrying a gun without a scope on it... which narrows it down to 12 gauge or .45 out of my current arsenal.


You make an excellent point there on that one...using a gun with no scope and rifle sights. That's the primary reason my Remington 700 in .338 Win Mag wears rifle sights only!!! If I break the .338 out, chances are Im hunting something large, I am hunting something that can stomp me in the ground or something that can bite back! I mean lets face it, on the little Texas White Tails, you really don't need that much gun. If I couldn't use a medium-large caliber rifle in bear country I would certainly fill okay using a 12 guage with rifle sights and a good slug load, after all I am going to be taking a well placed shot at a moderate distance or I will be taking a shot head on into a charging bear up close which will likely give me a head shot making it plenty adequate for the job at hand. Besides most bear encounters in the lower 48 will be Black Bears and not that many of them ever rise to the level of a 500 lbs plus trophy animal making a 12 guage loaded with slugs more than enough gun.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

PaulS said:


> Lets clear up some myths while we acknowledge that the 308 is capable of killing at least most of the game animals in the USA.
> The 308 does not shoot flatter than the 3006. The military switched to the 308 because it gave nearly the same ballistics with a smaller, lighter, cartridge. With modern powders, and the same weight bullet the 3006 has a slight edge on the 308. It is not enough to make a difference in the taking of game as long as the shots are well placed but the difference exists. The difference becomes evident when shooting 180 grain or heavier bullets but is measurable with the lighter bullets as well. The difference comes from greater powder capacity. The 3006 can hold more powder and therefore has the velocity advantage as long as the pressures are the same. The largest animals in the states are the moose and grizzly bear. The 308 and 3006 are capable of taking these animals at closer ranges using larger bullets but they are far from the ideal cartridge in that task.
> The ideal cartridge is a misnomer because the Alaskan Natives have been taking polar bears with rifles in 22 to 243 center-fire calibers since before WW II. Both the 308 and 3006 have more potential than any of those smaller cartridges but they are more expensive to shoot and having to import ammo and supplies to Alaska means the smaller cartridges are more popular.
> 
> After having said all that it is still possible for a good shot to take any North American game with a 308. Whether a hunter has the skills (woodland and shooting) to get that shot is a question that each hunter has to decide for himself. I would not feel "under-gunned" carrying either the 308 or the 3006.


Couldn't have summed it up any better PualS. Facts are the 30-06 is little better when using factory loads and bullets 180 gr or lighter. If you wanna use bullets heavier than that or your a reloader then the 30-06 most definitely provides and advantage over the 308 due to additional powder capacity and the heavier bullets having to be seated deeper in the case which hurts the 308's performance with these longer heavier bullets.

Yes Rickfromillinois, were I hunting Elk or Moose or Grizzly I would definitely prefer something with more frontal area than the 308 provides. However I know plenty of Elk that fall to a 308 caliber bullet in 180 grs from 30-06 factory loads which have a velocity of only about 100-150 more fps...hardly a significant difference over a 308 Winchester. I have dropped a couple with a 308, several with a 7mm Remington mag with 160 gr bullets. I dropped a large Moose with my 7mm using a 175 gr Handload. Yes I would have much preferred something with a little more ump to it on a animal that HUGE. The 308, 30-06 or 7mm works well enough if you do your part. All adequate although not optimal I agree. Were I PH or if I hunted Elk and Moose on a regular basis every season I would most definitely recommend a 338 or better for the added penetration, heavier bullets they throw and the added frontal diameter of the bullet. Unfortunately a lot of folks cant handle that much recoil and shoot very well beyond 100 yards.


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## pharmer14 (Oct 27, 2012)

The question was never about whether the 22 is the perfect prepping gun in this thread. The question was about the 308. 

It's like asking what is the best measuring device... well that depends... I wouldn't want to measure a mile with a ruler, but I wouldn't want to measure the length of my wall with something as long as a mile either.

At my BOL, a 308 would work nicely, which is why I have one. I fully agree that it's a great round. But I wouldn't be taking it hunting for small game. I don't think I'd use it for anything smaller than a deer when it comes to food. I might use it before SHTF on something like a groundhog just to be rid of it, but I wouldn't exactly be worried about yard pests if SHTF either.

I say the 22 only because it's practical for far more animals. You could probably take a squirrel, rabbit, or something like that with it. Any of those shot with a 308 would leave you without meat. At my BOL, there's really only deer, bear, or elk that require anything over a 22. Bear and elk are nowhere near as common as deer up there, so my large calibre rifle would only be used for 1 type of hunt regularly.

The 22 (especially if you do an over/under with 410) would be a much more practical gun at least 75% of the time. 

The nice thing about a big hunt is that you don't have to be successful as often. Big hunt=big meat. But currently, I'm without a means of preservation assuming the grid goes down. That means small kills are better for me until I get off the grid or get into smoking my kills down the road.


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## BDylan (Jan 2, 2013)

Love these threads. I'm in the camp that is certain that .308 is fine for anything short of large, angry African game. Of course, if facing a Grizzly charge I would want the biggest caliber I could buy. Grizzly guides like the biggest caliber the client will bring...why turn a leisurely hunt into a nail biter?


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

> Of course, if facing a Grizzly charge I would want the biggest caliber I could buy. Grizzly guides like the biggest caliber the client will bring...why turn a leisurely hunt into a nail biter?


That's what I am talking about...


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## kg1321 (Sep 30, 2013)

Considering the whole reason for the .308 or it's NATO designation 7.62x51 to be developed was to provide a 7.62(.30 cal) round that was comparable to the 30-06 that the M1 Garrand used. However, technology was implemented in the shrinkage of the 30-06 in the fact that is uses modern smokeless powder in stead of the black powder that the 30-06 was designed for. Also, the action on a 7,62 x 51 weapon is slightly smaller and therefore less prone to malfunction. (...at least that's what the 'researchers' said). It was designed to kill and maim humans. Unless you are hunting water buffalo or wild elephants, a .308 should do fine within say 300 meters. IMHO.








An English unit FAL Dean Cougan reciever, Kaiserworks custom M4 stock, DSA parts, etc. Kills deer at 300+ meters no sweat - with iron sights!:mrgreen:


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

.308 holes makes dead souls!


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The 3006 was never loaded using black powder. It is by all definitions a modern cartridge having been based on the .30-03 cartridge that fired a heavier bullet in round nose configuration. The 3006 was a shortened version (at the neck) of the .30-03 round with a lighter 174(ish) grain spitzer boat tail bullet. Both cartridges used "cordite" or other form of smokeless propellant until 1938(ish) when Dupont supplied the IMR (improved military rifle) powder. Later the powder was changed to IMR 4895 used with a 155 grain flat based bullet.


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