# The Hamlet Economy



## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

This Idea is a small basically enclosed economy incorporating about 100 people or families. This small economy can be linked to other small economies like itself. 
I've been in to self sufficiency for a number of years, beginning in 1970. On the overall I have to say--it wasn't worth it. Being a study type of things along with some others, the analysis is---it's really not needed. #1- basically, we're not like the deer that can sleep out in the snow bank and wake up in the morning, considering the deer hasn't any other choice. That's where our needs come into play. With experience and lots of trial and error it becomes understood that to be comfortable one needs quite a bit more then the deer--correct. We're just not made that way--and while one can get along with less, and others need more, so it's better to gang upon the problem. Our metabolism isn't genetically rigged like the deer or wolverine. So,according to our biologist we are no longer compatible with the planet conditions. The planet moved on and we stood still. Where it was warm and compatible the planet became colder,and it changed so much it's hardly compatible anywhere for us. Seasons become to hot, and then to cold. Here in WI it cam be 105 in the summer and near 50 below in the winter during certain years. Being we all can't live in the Bahamas some have to stay put in their ancestral grounds. It has become that to much is required for our types to be comfortable. Very few have time by self sufficiency to make a decent go of it. Self sufficiency is not about survival,it's about living normally with what one needs to be warm in the winter and cool in the summer. But- to have to make and produce all you need for just yourself is OK---but---where are the door hinges going to come from--now you need your own smelter and blacksmith works, If one want's to do all that the very same one will never have the time---and--we are the type that keep adding ideas to make things better, and, then you need more time--that's not there. Being that no one is going to live in hardship without improving one's lot then it's better to -Yup- gang up on the problem.

If each of the 100 specializes each also has to deal basically with one thing--and the time it takes to produce an abundance of one thing is minimal. For example---one person's labor in the field can feed 20 people, just as well as one persons labor in the blacksmith shop can produce plenty door hinges for everyone. OK, that's simple and really isn't anything new to anyone, but, that's what economies are for.

The main problem with economies is---economies are not for making money, they are for supplying needs that people first need ,and also then want. If money gets involved there,s those that can step in and want everything but want to do nothing--and that's what went wrong with the one you're in now, there,s to many bean counters and money makers. Eventually the lazy ass money makers get everything by money and the worker gets less. Every dollar on the stock market is there directly from someone else's labor. Noe they want to make money strictly with money and no investment in the economy. That idea is strictly mathematically unsound. They don't care because in the end they have money and you have no job. Eventually the only thing they need money for is to eat and party because they have everything else. 

Ok, so what to do about this--well, don't do as they do and don't play their games with the lives of others---let'em starve in their mansion and on the Riviera. Ok, so now--what do you know how to do, and what are you willing to learn. When you have that in tow what do you do with what you make. You take it to the warehouse. The warehouse (yup-you'll need a bean counter, but just a few) guy asks you, how ling did it take you to make that. You say 2.25 hours. He gives you a chit for that time and you put it in the bank. (that's your money, which is no money)(yup, we're still using a form of money) The wife wants you to bring home a jar of pickles, so you ask the warehouse/store guy---- how much is a quart of pickles. He says .20 of an hour, so you trade some of your time/labor for someone else's time/labor. 

This whole type of economy is an exchange of labor for labor--------evenup. If you don't put anything into the middle you can't take anything out to the edge. You are using something you already have, your time and labor. All you need to do is make it worth something, and that means it has to be worth something to someone/everyone else. When the bank gets your time traded the time/labor is cancelled, and is non existent. That keeps someone from gathering your labor and doing no work. The rule is--everyone must put something in the middle, and that has to be labor in form of the time it took to do the labor. If someone doesn't actually do physical labor they aren't entitled to take from the middle. 
For the 50% people that are throw aways and the not neededs ,they'll have to get together. BUT, be mindful that the predator and the profiting will have to be eliminated. As previously said--The Hamlet economy is to small for such a process and must exist and work on need rather then greed. The Idea is to live here on planet earth and have what's needed to be of resonable comfort. Be aware--that the economy that you are in now was stiil invented and put in force out of someone else's idea. Economies are invented for those that own it, and the economy that you are in now is owned by the Federal Reserve Bankers. The Hamlet economy is owned by those participating in it. Anyone that can do or produce anything can be in this economy just as the other, as long as others are willing to trade for what anyone produces. 
Believe it or not--the Federal reserveowns everything that has a loan on it. All the money that your bank has , has been borrowed from the Federsl Reserve Bankers. Until the loan is paid the Federal Reserve Bankers have a stake in what you borrowed the money for.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Hey Old Seer
My gawd a hard article to read, in you future posts and I hope there are more please put in more spaces and punctuate more.

Anyway from What I took away I totally agree, but you are thinking current day and not into the future.

It will eventually come back to communities and skills that make up that community.

Or current problem is government and a inflated standard of living based upon the petro-dollar.

Once this collapses, your theory will become viable.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Kind of how a rebirth will go if it ever came to a complete break down. We would fend for our self in small groups . Over time these groups would grow they will conduct business with others. Any state of anarchy between the groups will be put a side in order to do things that help both . Over time trust will build and we will have started over.
To make it clear anarchy is not what many think it is simple having no power or authority over


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

From what I am seeing in my business right now, the breakdown is happening simultaneously with (what I hope is) the rebirth. I read today that government regulations are now costing the private economy $1.8 TRILLION dollars per year. That is 13% of the total economy. And that does not even include taxes or Obamacare!

Regulation Nation: Gov't regs estimated to pound private sector with $1.8T in costs | Fox News

But business always finds a way. This year my business is actually having a really good year. But it is not coming from the U.S. I got a couple of very lucrative Canadian contracts this year. Without those, it would have been tough. I also have two contracts with American companies that are paying me through their overseas subsidiaries just to avoid all of the B.S. the American government gives them when they hire an American contractor. This is nuts!

But, I am starting to see a lot of small and medium sized businesses starting to understand that no matter what they do, they are going to be breaking some law or regulation. So, they are just choosing to avoid reporting these transactions at all. When the game is rigged, the only way to win is to not play.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

This economy has no foundation. IT WILL FAIL. When? is the real question. 

Massive debt; both current and long term liabilities on the Federal Balance Sheet. Massive Entitlements and growing. Massive Printing of Money by the Fed. MASSIVE amounts of Regulations and growing.

Massive Taxation and Massive Mismanagement and Fraud of that taxation.

Massive Ignorance amongst the people and Massive Evil amongst the Politicians.

That is just one side of the scale, tell me what is on the other side of the scales to offset this?


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

So the money makers are "lazy asses"? Did they get their money sitting on the couch at home without doing anything? I thought that was the welfare recipients. So basically what you are saying is that "money is evil" and the root to all of our problems. Funny, they had money in ancient Sumeria, Egypt, Jerusalem, and Babylon. Why? because it is easier to store, transport, and exchange. I am all for using the bartering system where practical, but it is in fact impractical in many cases for even the local economy. Let me give you an example. The main spring on your rifle breaks and you don't have a spare. There is a guy who lives 50 miles away who has a small business in spare parts for rifles, and you have a couple of spare chickens that you intend to trade for the parts. 50 miles. 2 to 3 days travel one way, hauling chickens to trade, and once you get there it he already has chickens he may not want to trade for it. Yes he could use them in the future, but he would have to feed and care for them until he wants them. That's where money comes in.

Without money, any economy would be restricted in size and to small local areas. How hard would it be to get a steady job that paid people in chickens and eggs. It is unrealistic to think that there would be any type of wide spread economy without money in the mix somewhere.

Money itself is good as long as it is good money. Money is nothing but an object that has a mutually agreed value. It can be a piece of paper, silver, gold, sea shells, and if the SHTF it could very well be a .22 round. It is still money because people accept that it has value. As for it somehow being "bad" that some people buys things they don't need, so what? Do you NEED everything you own? Do you NEED a computer? Do you NEED anything larger then a one room, not bedroom, ROOM, house? NO. If someone buys allot of crap that they will never use it is no one's business but theirs.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

The Book says--there will come a day when they will throw their money into the streets. What you're not understanding is---the one's with the most money rule--as we see today, and it will never turn out to be any other way, and history proves this to be true. Money is not evil---evil people gather the most money and create advantage over others---as , again can be seen today. The the present world evil rules as _aggression comes from one's animal side where evil originates from. A peaceful person has little aggression, less animalistic, and is easily taken over be the aggressive one's. The world is run by those that abhor physical labor and rig a deal that they gain without work at the loss of others who do the work. The economy at present is a prime example that economy isn't for everyone---it's for the one's that run it---it is that way now--how can it be denied. 50% of the people in the US aren't needed anymore.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

Well,that's another thing to contemplate. It may be a good time to start new businesses. In the old days floks got together to pool investment to begun new businesses. Why can't a new local car manufacturer start building cars for the local market. It's not necessary to go national or international. It's become no douibt that in many cases government has got to be gotten around. A lot of this is done by corporations that use government to restrict competition.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Kind of how a rebirth will go if it ever came to a complete break down. We would fend for our self in small groups . Over time these groups would grow they will conduct business with others. Any state of anarchy between the groups will be put a side in order to do things that help both . Over time trust will build and we will have started over.
> To make it clear anarchy is not what many think it is simple having no power or authority over


Exactly. Agree, but a small economy can be set up without waiting for a complete break down.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

Montana Rancher said:


> Hey Old Seer
> My gawd a hard article to read, in you future posts and I hope there are more please put in more spaces and punctuate more.
> 
> Anyway from What I took away I totally agree, but you are thinking current day and not into the future.
> ...


Agree, but the thing is---what can the "throw away" people do. I'm retired so I need not worry so much. ---Maybe I'll have to set the font a bit larger


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Old Seer said:


> Well,that's another thing to contemplate. It may be a good time to start new businesses. In the old days floks got together to pool investment to begun new businesses. *Why can't a new local car manufacturer start building cars for the local market.* It's not necessary to go national or international. It's become no douibt that in many cases government has got to be gotten around. A lot of this is done by corporations that use government to restrict competition.


Govt regulation plain and simple.

Motivated people are hampered at every turn. This girl is a prime example.

Oregon girl told she can't sell mistletoe, but can beg for money | Fox News


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

There are problems with any economy. One problem with the "hamlet economy" is that if everyone's time is worth the same amount then if it take one blacksmith 4 hours to make an axe head and another does it in 2 hours then one axe head will cost more than the other. If a doctor's time is worth the same as the guy hauling water then either life becomes cheaper or there won't be any doctors. What happens when your house catches fire? Who pays for that time? What about the tools that are used? Who pays for the X-ray machine or the blacksmith's forge and anvil? Don't they get to recoup the costs of their equipment in their prices?

Ideal societies don't exist as long as you have people involved. 

Barter is a good thing but each individual has to decide what they are willing to give for what they need.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

PaulS said:


> Barter is a good thing but each individual has to decide what they are willing to give for what they need.


That is the whole of it. What's it worth to you.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

A truly free commerce market is easily founded upon the barter system.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

PaulS said:


> There are problems with any economy. One problem with the "hamlet economy" is that if everyone's time is worth the same amount then if it take one blacksmith 4 hours to make an axe head and another does it in 2 hours then one axe head will cost more than the other. If a doctor's time is worth the same as the guy hauling water then either life becomes cheaper or there won't be any doctors. What happens when your house catches fire? Who pays for that time? What about the tools that are used? Who pays for the X-ray machine or the blacksmith's forge and anvil? Don't they get to recoup the costs of their equipment in their prices?
> 
> Ideal societies don't exist as long as you have people involved.
> 
> Barter is a good thing but each individual has to decide what they are willing to give for what they need.


It's a proven fact that in a bartering system the dentist ends up with everything. (That's a funny). But it's true--one guy ends up owning everything. 
All these details have to be worked out by those involved. I didn't complete the post because it would go on to long. There will be people in this economy who won't keep track of hours. A doctors life for instance , is too complicated for this type of economy---such as he (a suggestion) is allowed to take from the store as needed, or, allotted a specific number of hours per day--as with the store keeper. There are those that will basically produce nothing but are still needed. Again--for instance--the system will need extra helpers that go from business to business to help out as needed. Not everyone needs to be in a business. The helper put into the middle from helping others put into the middle. Their time helping gets attached the the product made. There should be no prohibiting of any individuals right to barter. If someone comes over to dig a hole for you--you pay him out of your account as normal. Thye time is transferred from you account to his. Likewise the banker--is allotted a certain number of hours per day.

Any machines etc can be owned collectively or privately. Wouldn't it be in your interest to make sure someone had the tools and equipment to supply you as well as it would be in another's interest for them to supply the tools you need. After all---we all pay for the industrial machinery in the present economy, and it all gets tacked onto the price of the product. The main difference is---one is not trying to make money, one is making something they already have "worth" something. I wasn't born into money--I was born having the ability of labor, something I already have. In this case,you're merely bartering something you already have. You have the labor---now you need the shovel. If someone can make an axe head for less --then go with the less. The other guy either has to find something else to do. This is an economy where if you're not fair and square you loose out to another. Why would I trade 4 hours for your axe head---someone is padding the price. Remember--part of the solution "is" that this is a small economy, and, everyone will know if someone isn't honest--there's no place to hide as is in the Hamlet economy. A dishonest one is easily replaced--right. Consider--there's no inflation, and if so how did that happen. Why would a jar of pickles take more time to make this year then last year??????

Your small economy can even be tied to the existing. OK--You have a job that you want to keep rather then quit and produce in the Hamlet. What can you do (I'm showing the versatility). You can buy a refrigerator and take it down to the store- You paid $250.00 for it. You make $14.00 per hour. Divide 250 by 14--equaling 17.85 hours.That goes into your account to trade for-----pickles at what ever price the pickles are. Now someone else has a refrigerator that isn't made by someone in the Hamlet. They have to trade 17.85 of their hours for it. You should call the storekeeper first to see if it's needed.

The inefficiency of money. 
It takes a crew of 5 to build a house. It takes 800 man hours to build. 5 men at $20.00 per hour= $16000.00. Contractors profit $16000.00. Material $20,000.00. Total $52000.000. Loan interest @ 6% per year=3120.00 for 20 years $62400.00. All combined = $114400.00. You make 15.00 on the job. 114400 divided by 15 = 7626 hours. The Hamlet built house adding 160 hours for the contractor=960 hours<---that's what you pay. You,re paying what it would take you to build the house yourself. And that's not an expensive house by today's standards.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Old Seer said:


> Well,that's another thing to contemplate. It may be a good time to start new businesses. In the old days floks got together to pool investment to begun new businesses. Why can't a new local car manufacturer start building cars for the local market. It's not necessary to go national or international. It's become no douibt that in many cases government has got to be gotten around. A lot of this is done by corporations that use government to restrict competition.


So you buy a car made just for the local market, go on a trip, and your car breaks down and needs a part..... where are you going to get one?

All cars are started to be made just for local markets. No competition. Think maybe the manufacturer can charge whatever he wants for it? After all, he has a monopoly.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Do a study on the Amish, they are pretty much self-sufficient, off the grid, and seemingly happy with their lifestyle. Maybe they are ahead of us, in this game, in some respects. Back in the day when something needed repair, we would ask ourselves, buy new or repair? What do we have more of, money or time?


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

So in your perfect economy everybody throws whatever the can in the pool and takes out only what they need.....I seem to have heard of something like that somewhere. Where was that???? Oh yeah, Karl Marx.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Ahh, yes, if greed didn't get in the way!! As with most things. A master must be there.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

I don't really see much different in your system and the system we already use, except for a few things. Your system gets rid of the unproductive. I think that's good. I don't know what you would do with them though. Although I guess the stockbroker and the welfare recipient and the govt beuracrat and the politician AND THE RETIREE would all have to learn to do something productive, or perish. 
Another difference I see is in your society everyone's time is worth the same. I don't know how that works. It takes a lot more time and knowledge to become proficient as an electrician than it does a framing carpenter. Why would anyone spend the time learning the knowledge needed to be an electrician when they can just be a framer?(This is just one example.)


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

Notsoyoung said:


> So you buy a car made just for the local market, go on a trip, and your car breaks down and needs a part..... where are you going to get one?
> 
> All cars are started to be made just for local markets. No competition. Think maybe the manufacturer can charge whatever he wants for it? After all, he has a monopoly.


Why would I buy his car if he runs s monopoly game--go with someone who won't---he's out of business, and out of the Hamlet. Such a small economy cannot allow predators. The auto guy wouldn't be building a car to travel with. To begin with, it would be a lot simpler and basic car for use in the immediate territory. Such a Hamlet is for simpler(not mentally simple) and basic floks.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

1skrewsloose said:


> Do a study on the Amish, they are pretty much self-sufficient, off the grid, and seemingly happy with their lifestyle. Maybe they are ahead of us, in this game, in some respects. Back in the day when something needed repair, we would ask ourselves, buy new or repair? What do we have more of, money or time?


The Amish do use money. They usually buy flour, sugar and the material to make clothes out of. Many use polyester because it is cheaper and lasts longer. There is a lot of barter there though and they too have tradesmen.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Old Seer said:


> Your small economy can even be tied to the existing. OK--You have a job that you want to keep rather then quit and produce in the Hamlet. What can you do (I'm showing the versatility). You can buy a refrigerator and take it down to the store- You paid $250.00 for it. You make $14.00 per hour. Divide 250 by 14--equaling 17.85 hours.That goes into your account to trade for-----pickles at what ever price the pickles are. Now someone else has a refrigerator that isn't made by someone in the Hamlet. They have to trade 17.85 of their hours for it. You should call the storekeeper first to see if it's needed.


The problem come in if I decide to keep my current job too. For argument's sake let's say I make $100.00 per hour (about average for self-employed computer people). So if I buy the same refrigerator and bring it to the store, it is only worth 2 1/2 hours. The trouble I see with your system is that everybody's time has the same value, which is just not realistic.



Old Seer said:


> The inefficiency of money.
> It takes a crew of 5 to build a house. It takes 800 man hours to build. 5 men at $20.00 per hour= $16000.00. Contractors profit $16000.00. Material $20,000.00. Total $52000.000. Loan interest @ 6% per year=3120.00 for 20 years $62400.00. All combined = $114400.00. You make 15.00 on the job. 114400 divided by 15 = 7626 hours. The Hamlet built house adding 160 hours for the contractor=960 hours<---that's what you pay. You,re paying what it would take you to build the house yourself. And that's not an expensive house by today's standards.


The house example is not an apples-to-apples comparison. In your hamlet example, you failed to add anything for the materials. Also, in the non-hamlet example you bring a bank into the equation. The bank in your example DOES provide value to the buyer, namely the ability to own a house today even though he has not yet earned the money to pay for all of it.

It is very easy to fall into the liberal trap that "the money changers" are bad. They are not. Banking and investment is a legitimate and necessary industry to any economy that wants to build big things. The problem with our current banking and financial services industry is that it does not presently operate in a capitalist economy. It operates in a system of political cronyism. Additionally, the fact that most of the world's big currencies are not trustworthy further exacerbates the problem.

Finally, the last point that I want to make on your idea is that it seems to place the value on the time it takes to create a widget rather than the widget itself. In such a system, the guy that gets the greatest reward is the guy that works the slowest and least efficient. For example, Bob can create a widget in an hour, so he gets a credit of one hour for every widget he builds. Fred takes ten hours to build the same widget. So Fred gets a credit of ten hours for each widget. Why wouldn't Bob build 90% of the widget in an hour, then fart around for nine hours before completing the task?

I do not mean any disrespect, but this seems like a system that is way too close to all of the failed "worker's paradise" systems that have been tried and failed in the past.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Old Seer said:


> Why would I buy his car if he runs s monopoly game--go with someone who won't---he's out of business, and out of the Hamlet. Such a small economy cannot allow predators. The auto guy wouldn't be building a car to travel with. To begin with, it would be a lot simpler and basic car for use in the immediate territory. Such a Hamlet is for simpler(not mentally simple) and basic floks.


If there is only one "hamlet" car manufacturer, who else are you going to buy a car from? As for not build a car to travel with, then why have a car at all? You are going to restrict yourself to NEVER leaving your local area? Hhhhmmmmm. Are we going to make sure that no one ever leaves by putting up check points and fences around the hamlet? How about mine fields?


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

1skrewsloose said:


> Do a study on the Amish, they are pretty much self-sufficient, off the grid, and seemingly happy with their lifestyle. Maybe they are ahead of us, in this game, in some respects. Back in the day when something needed repair, we would ask ourselves, buy new or repair? What do we have more of, money or time?


I suggest that you study the Amish just a bit closer. We have an Amish community near where I live and I have visited there many times. The Amish do use money. They also have phones, just not in their houses. If you drive past an Amish farm you will see a small little building in front of their houses. You will also see a line going to that little building. It's a phone line. In addition, many of their appliances run on either natural gas or pneumatic power. They do not pump that natural gas themselves, and there is an electric air compressor for that pneumatic power in their barn or an out building. In addition, in our area the Amish produce allot of furniture. This is NOT done using only hand tools. Once again, pneumatic power driving by air compressors powered by electricity. There is an Amish museum in our Amish community and I suggest that if you have the opportunity that you visit one. I think that you will be surprised just how dependent the Amish are on the grid. Not as much as most of us, but still dependent.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

1skrewsloose said:


> Do a study on the Amish, they are pretty much self-sufficient, off the grid, and seemingly happy with their lifestyle. Maybe they are ahead of us, in this game, in some respects. Back in the day when something needed repair, we would ask ourselves, buy new or repair? What do we have more of, money or time?


And then go actually visit some. They're a lot different in person than either paper or their reality show depict. Such as the "no reliance on technology". That's mostly BS. Oh, and the paying outsiders to sleep with their daughters... that parts pretty messed up, but I guess it's better than incest.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I appreciate the responses, guess it depends on the degree to which the particular sects adhere to their traditions. Given that, they still have manual operated machines. Still bind together to do stuff, to bad the capitalists side has crept into their society. We can still learn from them. Some aspects of their beliefs fall beyond me, but hay, they been living that way for a long time. I'm no green horn to the Amish, Just saying we can learn from their past. We have many Amish communities here, I butcher their animals, tend to their sawmill needs, and they respond by providing leather goods I need, plus other supplies. Good folks in my mind. I said pretty much, not totally self-suficient.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

Notsoyoung said:


> If there is only one "hamlet" car manufacturer, who else are you going to buy a car from? As for not build a car to travel with, then why have a car at all? You are going to restrict yourself to NEVER leaving your local area? Hhhhmmmmm. Are we going to make sure that no one ever leaves by putting up check points and fences around the hamlet? How about mine fields?


Not really. Your hamlet auto is small and utilitarian, and very inexpensive. One of the problems we had in figuring out this type of economy was getting rid of the mentality caused by the big one we are in. The Hamlet auto may have only a 10 or20 HP engine and a two seater, but there can be others. It would be very basic and minus a lot of affluence articles. All of the foibles can be worked out overtime. Considering the inexpence of the car it's just an addition to the one you' would travel with. Already on the market there are autos that are similar, such as the Mini Cooper, but still quite spendie. I travel a lot in my RV from WI to Corpus Christy to AZ to OR to all over CA across ,MT,ND etc. There's a lot of mini coopers and the likes on the interstates. But it's spare parts that would be the problem. Other Hamlets would also build their versions/ideas.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

Edit--This is reply to the Amish post. Oh absolutely. They are a prime example that we don't need everything to live on planet earth. One of our drawbacks is that things are getting to complicated. The way this thing we have is going we'll have starved and dead floks in the streets. There can't be rich without poor. It's
universal construction--most everything has it's opposite.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

Inor said:


> The problem come in if I decide to keep my current job too. For argument's sake let's say I make $100.00 per hour (about average for self-employed computer people). So if I buy the same refrigerator and bring it to the store, it is only worth 2 1/2 hours. The trouble I see with your system is that everybody's time has the same value, which is just not realistic.
> 
> The house example is not an apples-to-apples comparison. In your hamlet example, you failed to add anything for the materials. Also, in the non-hamlet example you bring a bank into the equation. The bank in your example DOES provide value to the buyer, namely the ability to own a house today even though he has not yet earned the money to pay for all of it.
> 
> ...


Why do business with a slacker. Remember, part of the idea of a Hamlet economy is that every one will know if there's dishonesty. No one can hide. No sense in trading with the slowest producer--he's out of business. Go with the one that's doing it right and in proper time. Eventually every one will know what it takes to produce something. No one will get very far if they're padding their time--everyone will know. You need to understand that a small economy allows all to see what's going on, crooks have no place to hide. You have the same problem we had at first--making assumption and comparance to the economy we have now. We had to over come that. The Hamlet has only 50 to 100 people in it. hard to get away with something under those conditions. 
I did include material cost--20000,00. Everything could be doubled--but that means that the house is bought for 1920 hours compared to over 7000. What we are doing is submitting an idea that we went over for some time. It will work as a small economy, and for those that have no where else to turn.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

Inor said:


> The problem come in if I decide to keep my current job too. For argument's sake let's say I make $100.00 per hour (about average for self-employed computer people). So if I buy the same refrigerator and bring it to the store, it is only worth 2 1/2 hours. The trouble I see with your system is that everybody's time has the same value, which is just not realistic.
> 
> The house example is not an apples-to-apples comparison. In your hamlet example, you failed to add anything for the materials. Also, in the non-hamlet example you bring a bank into the equation. The bank in your example DOES provide value to the buyer, namely the ability to own a house today even though he has not yet earned the money to pay for all of it.
> 
> ...


The materials to make the widget are traded for and the time it took to make the material is also traded--thus material production time + makeup and assembly are all added together. 
OK- The grower grows the corn--and then takes it to the store or delivers it to the processor. The canner/processor then trades for the corn and cans it. The growing hours and the processing time are added to the final end along with all hours of any helpers. It's the same process that any economy runs on. Business requires that the customer pay the entire expense/everything.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

So is this something you have actually set up? How many have bought into this?


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

inceptor said:


> So is this something you have actually set up? How many have bought into this?


Nope,this isn't something that is setup. It's an idea that can be used by those needing it. It's really no different then any other economy. The only differences are the trading time and labor directly rather then money between. But, time and labor can still be considered money. You,re merely using your own rather then the fed reserves, which is rapidly turning into funny money. Yours is real money and will be just as valuable next year as this year. And you have a say and a hand in overseeing it. It's really just a basic economy.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Old Seer said:


> Nope,this isn't something that is setup. It's an idea that can be used by those needing it. It's really no different then any other economy. The only differences are the trading time and labor directly rather then money between. But, time and labor can still be considered money. You,re merely using your own rather then the fed reserves, which is rapidly turning into funny money. Yours is real money and will be just as valuable next year as this year. And you have a say and a hand in overseeing it. It's really just a basic economy.


I was just wondering if you found anyone yet to get on board with this.

Seems like someone tried something similar. I think they called it the Soviet Union. But I could be wrong.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

inceptor said:


> I was just wondering if you found anyone yet to get on board with this.
> 
> Seems like someone tried something similar. I think they called it the Soviet Union. But I could be wrong.


All economies are socialistic,and communistic in their natures. It's banding together for the common good. No economy can have any different rudiments then what is required, The stock markets are socialistic, people pooling resources (money in this case) for the good of all those investing in a venture. That's economy 101. It can't be gotten around. The difference with the Hamlet economy is there's no use of currency from the federal reserve. The Hamlet has it own form of currency. Money is money no matter what form. Capitalism isn't good for everyone. Capitalism is only good for the capitalist, just as greed is only good for the most successful greedy. An economy can't exist without capitalism either. Instead of money capitalism the hamlet capitalizes on the fact that others exist and have needs. Being better off because one can provide and receive is capitalism--it's just that money isn't needed. I'd say what you are used to is money capitalism without understanding the basic of capitalism. No negative in tended. Farmers capitalize on the cow, and then capitalize again by throwing the manure on the field so the crops grow better. We can't live without capitalizing. But we don't need money capitalism.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

I lived in rural Colorado for a time. Barter there was quite common. The thing I liked bartering for the most was buffalo meat.


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## Old Seer (Dec 2, 2013)

inceptor said:


> I lived in rural Colorado for a time. Barter there was quite common. The thing I liked bartering for the most was buffalo meat.


I travel alot and several times going through Los Angeles and San Francisco I came across vacant lot gardens. The locals would claim a vacant lot, dump in loads of black dirt, and in a few months there was a lushy garden. They kept some and sold some. People are amazing.


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