# A Solution for the Cities in SHTF?



## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

In dense population areas, from cities to suburbs, (where 100 or more people live within every 100 square yards), SHTF communities will look and work very differently from sparsely populated SHTF communities.

Living in close proximity to many strangers is often viewed as a disadvantage during a WROL situation. –But what if it could be turned into an advantage?

Most people in densely populated areas wouldn’t have the capability to move to a better location during SHTF. Where could they go that would offer food, water, shelter, and protection? There aren’t enough FEMA camps or supplies in them to accommodate everyone. They’re stuck where they are.

Yet, in SHTF, they’ll want to survive and for their children to survive. They’ll want food and water, health services, protection from marauders, etc. The only way that gives them a chance of getting these things is to band together and help each other.

When the Soviet Union fell, and ceased supplying Cuba with foreign aid, Cuba went through an SHTF situation. People began starving, especially in the cities. Crime became rampant, as people tried to find some way to feed themselves and their families, –similar to what is happening in Venezuela today. They understood that if they did not work together, they could not survive. Eventually, neighborhoods formed small communities to provide services for their own group, growing food wherever possible, fighting off bandits, providing natural health care, etc.
In Cuba, those who did not contribute to the effort were not given services, and criminals were forced out of their communities.

I know most of you think that the solution Cuba found would not happen here. I don’t want to hear why it wouldn’t work; (I can think of a lot of reasons myself). I want to hear how you would make it work if you were stuck in it.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

You have a very interesting view of what happened in Cuba. Of course it is a fairy tale but would make a fiction great movie.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

That's great. Then the country will be a lot less crowded and safer for me.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Ah Cuba! The poster child of communist shithole countries who were successful? That Cuba? 

But to the OP's point; Shit Has Been Hitting The Fan in high populated areas since the beginning of high populated areas. Many live, many die. Some move some don't. 

I have 2 homes, Slippy Lodge is in a small town of less than 1600 people about 40 miles from a large shithole city.

Slippy's Place on the River Near the Lake is in a larger town of approx 5000 people about 50 miles from a large shithole city. 

I'll take my chances in both places but Slippy Lodge is my Alamo; Stocked and Stacked, Locked and Cocked and Ready to Rock much more than the Place on The River Near The Lake...

Just gotta get therelain:


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I do not see people banding together successfully in places like Newark, Detroit and other bastions of liberalism. I predict they will eat each other.


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## Limit Killer (Dec 6, 2017)

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks now. I'd prefer to leave the city but that might not be possible. 

In my apartment building there are 16 units, 4 on each floor. On the property there are 12 buildings. I know the others on my floor and 3 of the other unit occupants in the building . I'm working on getting acquainted with the rest of the people in my building.

If people know each other, even just a little, they are far less likely to turn on each other. 

Plus, it's much easier to get into the secured building when I forget my keys if I can just ring my neighbour and they actually know who I am.

Raise the limits.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Castro used his military to transport and protect drugs. He rented out his terrorist to others to kill. He enslaved Cuba. Killed anyone that he did not like. Cuba is not the wonderful place liberal would like to sell you on. Lager number of women forced into prostitution to get by. Many died trying to escape Cuba.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

TGus said:


> ... * Eventually*, neighborhoods formed small communities to provide services for their own group, growing food wherever possible, fighting off bandits, providing natural health care, etc...


If that ^^ part of your quote is the starting point of the OP... a lot will depend on how far out that "Eventually" is. I hesitate to engage here, but I will if you flesh out the parameters of the scenario in your head a bit.

For example...did someone in your neighborhood stock seeds etc? Did someone have the foresight to have a water source available? What kind of community organization will there be? I'd imagine a communist/socialist style would be needed initially - to manage/control what little resources there might be on hand. This isn't like the old days - where folks had the knowledge of how to do things manually (i.e. without power) even if the tools were at hand... so what are the starting points of what you have in mind for this thread?


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> If that ^^ part of your quote is the starting point of the OP... a lot will depend on how far out that "Eventually" is. I hesitate to engage here, but I will if you flesh out the parameters of the scenario in your head a bit.
> 
> For example...did someone in your neighborhood stock seeds etc? Did someone have the foresight to have a water source available? What kind of community organization will there be? I'd imagine a communist/socialist style would be needed initially - to manage/control what little resources there might be on hand. This isn't like the old days - where folks had the knowledge of how to do things manually (i.e. without power) even if the tools were at hand... so what are the starting points of what you have in mind for this thread?


My fault perhaps in not asking a clear question, (Actually it was intentional to allow all kinds of answers. However, I'm primarily asking what could be realistically done during SHTF for city or suburban neighborhoods to become self-sufficient and free enough of marauders to securely do what they need for themselves.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

I agree with those who observed that Cuba has a far-from-perfect society and government. However, I believe the neighborhoods did accomplish something significant by taking matters more into their own hands, instead of relying on their government to provide for them during this crisis.

I'd like to share some of my ideas about how I think densely populated neighborhoods can survive during SHTF. (When I say this, I don't mean that everyone will survive. Nor am I talking about currently crime-ridden neighborhoods either. I'm talking about normal middle-class bedroom-community neighborhoods.).

When SHTF hits these communities, average people are going to feel very insecure, -scared of not having enough provisions, and scared of violent activity. They'll rather join a group that seems to have a good plan than trying to go it alone. If it becomes obvious that the government is not coming to their aid, groups *will *spontaneously form. People selfishly feel more secure in groups, with shared responsibilities and also providing defense in numbers. That's why we refer to them as having a herd mentality.

Of course, human nature being what it is, many of these groups will initially be badly formed and unable to achieve their goals, but over time, they will improve. -Because they have to, ..or die. So the challenge for the prepared sheepdog is not to create groups, but rather to suggest better ways of organizing themselves, working productively, procuring necessities, learning survival skills, defending their community, etc. The survivalist sheepdog is the on-site specialist in these areas, and what he or she suggests should be ideas people/groups can understand and adopt. He's not always right; he's not a dictator; he's an important resource to the group.

I'd rather have delegated committees providing services to my family, (like getting gathering food, water, and wood) than having each family do everything for themselves. I'd rather have 100 trained and armed defenders answering a marauder attack on my house within minutes, than a few neighbors showing up from far away too late to help. I'd rather live close to many people in the right kind of community than far out from any neighbors. The only thing I'd prefer more would be to live so far into the woods that few people would ever find me, -but that's not possible or feasible for even most preppers.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

What can realistically be done to become self sufficient?

In the city, nothing. How can you make an apartment building self sufficient in food, fuel, water, or indeed anything? Hopeless. 

The folks in the suburbs at least have some open earth to grow vegetables. They can cooperate to dam the creeks for water and provide for the common defense. They have a fighting chance.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Camel923 said:


> I do not see people banding together successfully in places like Newark, Detroit and other bastions of liberalism. I predict they will eat each other.


Would not be uncommon for them.

They were at it a little over 140 years ago, and not just one or two individuals, it was a tribal affair.

The whole strain may have some level of the human mad cow disease from 10 millennia of consumption of a like kind.

SHTF could be the trigger for instant instinctive reversion to local abo bush meat consumption.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

I just don't see it happening...


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

sideKahr said:


> What can realistically be done to become self sufficient?
> 
> In the city, nothing. How can you make an apartment building self sufficient in food, fuel, water, or indeed anything? Hopeless.
> 
> The folks in the suburbs at least have some open earth to grow vegetables. They can cooperate to dam the creeks for water and provide for the common defense. They have a fighting chance.


Agree re fighting chance...as long as all the outsiders are either already dead or very nominal threat. And there's a creek nearby, AND they have enough seed & time to wait for a harvest.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

TGus said:


> However, I'm primarily asking what could be realistically done during SHTF for city or suburban neighborhoods to become self-sufficient and free enough of marauders to securely do what they need for themselves.


How could anyone be free of marauders when surrounded by thousands of hungry, desperate folks?

You do understand becoming self-sufficient is more than a state of mind? It is a lifestyle. It takes lots of proper land, equipment, knowledge, years of practice, seed, tools, dependable water sources, etc. etc. etc. You just don't turn on a switch and say well now I want to be self-sufficient. Hell, I live a rural life on a farmstead, have gardens already prepared, over an acre of orchards & berries already bearing, thousands of lbs of grain fed catfish in the pond, fields full of deer & other game, tractor, fuel in storage, hand tools enough for a community to garden, hundreds of lbs of seed in storage, neighbors with hundreds of cattle, etc. ... and I still worry if we could survive.

Here is the trick. If you want to live in a self-sufficient community post SHTF, like me, it takes folks that know how to work outdoors in the heat all day long. It takes thousands of lbs of food in storage, even with all the orchards, gardens, game, etc. because once again, when it comes time to be self-sufficient, you just don't turn on a switch & start harvesting food. In the best of circumstances, like say in the book One Second After, where the event occurs in the spring, it still takes weeks or months for the food to come in... assuming you are prepared to grow the food. Now consider worst case. What happens when the event is in the fall, when you can't even begin to start growing food for many months? That is why a group needs so much food in storage... besides all the other stuff. In my circumstance, I plan on needing 150 lbs of food in storage per person that could be in my group. That is why folks like me, with short, mild winters & long growing seasons have a huge advantage. With cool weather seed in storage, we can still produce food in December & back again starting in February. If you have a shorter growing season, you would need more food stores.

I know you want this to work, but all my years of prepping & striving to eventually become self-sufficient, tells me you are dreaming if you thing a bunch of city folk, with no preparation, can magically become self-sufficient just because they need or want it to happen. How many hoes do you own? How many shovels? You have enough & the right type of seed in storage to feed your own family for a year? To provide food for this community for a year? You know how to grow your own food & how to handle all the problems? You know how to store seed? You know what open pollinated seed is? You don't find much of that in your local garden center. They like hybrids. Surely you don't think y'all will be able to run down to the hardware store to get all your supplies, even if you knew how to use them?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

My views are formed from being in places were the government has collapsed. Where the normal supply of goods has failed. Rule of law had no meaning to anyone. Bad people do not all of the shudder turn good to help others, they get worst. Good people try but in the end most will put themselves first.
I saw how an area with supply's guarded by small units of military had to deal with adults bringing children at night to force them into trying to sneak in and steal anything they could while the adults stayed safely back a few hundred yards hiding. They did not care if the children died. 
Not a day went by we did not have some one come to us trying to convince us we needed to kill their next door neighbor . How often did I say you know Mohammad they said the same thing about you just an hour ago.
Homie in Milwaukee on a good day will kill for a pair of shoes or a cell phone. What do you think he will do post SHTF. You may not want to except it but most people are cowards. They will not step up.
The people out side the major cities got by the best. Main reason they had space , they knew how to grow food they saw you coming. There barter work to a point because they fairly traded what each needed. Bet your ass there was a AK47 ensuring the deal was not one sided.
Stand off range is your friend.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

******* said:


> ...You do understand becoming self-sufficient is more than a state of mind? It is a lifestyle. It takes lots of proper land, equipment, knowledge, years of practice, seed, tools, dependable water sources, etc. etc. etc. You just don't turn on a switch and say well now I want to be self-sufficient. Hell, I live a rural life on a farmstead, have gardens already prepared, over an acre of orchards & berries already bearing, thousands of lbs of grain fed catfish in the pond, fields full of deer & other game, tractor, fuel in storage, hand tools enough for a community to garden, hundreds of lbs of seed in storage, neighbors with hundreds of cattle, etc. ... and I still worry if we could survive...


There you go, getting all practical and realistic on us and bursting our bubbles.

You're right, of course.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

MountainGirl said:


> AND they have enough seed & time to wait for a harvest.


What do you want to bet that they grind the wheat into flour and bake bread, rather than tighten their belts and go hungry.

*Rancher*


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

If we're talking a total shutdown, I can't but see very bad news for people living in large cities. When electricity stops, water stops, sewers stops, pretty much everything stops. A lot of people freaking out, a lot of people dying IMO, of course some will survive. This will happen too, IMO in the rural areas, but I'm thinking your chance of survival will be much better with a little 'elbow room" to work with, Give me a few hours, and I can construct an outhouse until something more permanent can be built, likewise with heat, and water. food? well this is a preppering site, so that should go without saying.
I do believe after a time, people will band together and form communities with different people doing different jobs for the good of all, some will grow food, some with build, some will supply protection, and after a while even some sort of law will be restored. 
Big cities right after SHTF? wouldn't want to be there.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

One thing's for sure: Snowflakes will have instantly melted.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

MountainGirl said:


> One thing's for sure: Snowflakes will have instantly melted.


 More like Homie will beat, kill and take anything they have weather they needed it or not.


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## pakrat (Nov 18, 2012)

One of the most challenging results of a successful community will be people’s desire to have their friends and family join that community. If you have a household with a widowed grandmother living there, the community can collectively support her with food, water and other basics. The problem will arise when she wants her sons and daughters and their families to be allowed to come in and enjoy the benefits of the small surviving community. Or, when people outside hear about the improved conditions.

The compassionate members of the community will have a hard time saying NO. Suddenly a household of one becomes a group of nine or ten… putting a strain on resources. And, if one household is allowed to do it, others will want to have the same consideration. The debate alone could split and weaken the community along social/philosophical delineations.

I think a neighborhood/community has the potential to be successful for a period of time, but current pervasive liberal, communist and socialist mindsets will do the same to that success that they have attempted do to this country… destroy it. Our society has been trained to gravitate toward dissatisfaction, dissention and chaos. Old habits die hard. SHTF will not alter that. Survival of the mentally fittest is the only cure. Only then will a community or group have more than temporary success.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

If Lucifer's Hammer and Atlas Shrugged had a kid - it would be this thread.

If you haven't read both yet, you should. Start with the Hammer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer's_Hammer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

pakrat said:


> One of the most challenging results of a successful community will be people's desire to have their friends and family join that community. If you have a household with a widowed grandmother living there, the community can collectively support her with food, water and other basics. The problem will arise when she wants her sons and daughters and their families to be allowed to come in and enjoy the benefits of the small surviving community. Or, when people outside hear about the improved conditions.


So true and one of the reasons why I haven't mentioned my plans to my neighbors. In my situation, I would not even begin to form the group until the crisis was well on its way. Any survival will be a challenge as will be maintaining a group. All I know to do is to try and understand nothing in this life is guaranteed.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

MountainGirl said:


> If Lucifer's Hammer and Atlas Shrugged had a kid - it would be this thread.
> 
> If you haven't read both yet, you should. Start with the Hammer.
> 
> ...


 When I was in school Atlas Shrugged and We the living were required reading. Now they are band in some schools.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Smitty901 said:


> When I was in school Atlas Shrugged and We the living were required reading. Now they are band in some schools.


Not surprised, and that makes me hurl.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

sideKahr said:


> What can realistically be done to become self sufficient?
> 
> In the city, nothing. How can you make an apartment building self sufficient in food, fuel, water, or indeed anything? Hopeless.
> 
> The folks in the suburbs at least have some open earth to grow vegetables. They can cooperate to dam the creeks for water and provide for the common defense. They have a fighting chance.


Yes, I imagine it's pretty hopeless for the cities. Let's break the essential needs down by availability in Boston. Water: The Charles river runs through the center of Boston. Even if it becomes contaminated, the water can be boiled, and our flat rooftops can collect our adequate precipitation. So, water is not a huge problem. Shelter & security: The houses are almost all made of brick or stone, and the 1st floor windows tend to be high, so shelter & security won't be an insurmountable problem. We have very little violent crime anyway. Food: Gardens can be grown on roofs and local parks, and fished/gathered from the nearby ocean and river. Even so, it won't be enough to keep half of the population from starving. Heat: a quarter of the inner-city apartment buildings have working fireplaces, and the rest can improvise something, but lack of wood and house fires will become a big problem. Hygiene: Boston has huge gravity-fed reservoirs that will keep the water running for weeks on the lower floors, but after that, there are few places to put human waste. Diseases will spread, likely most seriously affecting those who do not find hygienic solutions.

Though each city and each community will have its own unique challenges, at least 2/3rds of the population is sure to die. -But neighborhoods whose residents work together intelligently and productively will be more likely to survive, though it will still be a difficult and needy life for them. I estimate that a half million, out of the current 2.5 million in Boston, will be able to survive longer than a year. Luckily, I live outside the city and have much more abundant resources.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

******* said:


> How could anyone be free of marauders when surrounded by thousands of hungry, desperate folks?
> 
> You do understand becoming self-sufficient is more than a state of mind? It is a lifestyle. It takes lots of proper land, equipment, knowledge, years of practice, seed, tools, dependable water sources, etc. etc. etc. You just don't turn on a switch and say well now I want to be self-sufficient. Hell, I live a rural life on a farmstead, have gardens already prepared, over an acre of orchards & berries already bearing, thousands of lbs of grain fed catfish in the pond, fields full of deer & other game, tractor, fuel in storage, hand tools enough for a community to garden, hundreds of lbs of seed in storage, neighbors with hundreds of cattle, etc. ... and I still worry if we could survive.
> 
> ...


As more of a survivalist than a prepper, I understand that you just don't "turn on a switch" and become self-sufficient. -But people can learn to survive with a lot less than you think, if they have to. They won't be knowledgeable, well-fed, warm, or safe, -but a good number will live and learn what to do to keep living.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> If Lucifer's Hammer and Atlas Shrugged had a kid - it would be this thread.
> 
> If you haven't read both yet, you should. Start with the Hammer.
> 
> ...


As an avid Science Fiction reader, I've read both. Thank you for your astute comment.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

TGus said:


> As an avid Science Fiction reader, I've read both. Thank you for your astute comment.


Thanks...which is also why I think any community plan short of the Senator's stronghold with the work ethic of Galt's Gulch is gonna fail.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

pakrat said:


> One of the most challenging results of a successful community will be people's desire to have their friends and family join that community. If you have a household with a widowed grandmother living there, the community can collectively support her with food, water and other basics. The problem will arise when she wants her sons and daughters and their families to be allowed to come in and enjoy the benefits of the small surviving community. Or, when people outside hear about the improved conditions.
> 
> The compassionate members of the community will have a hard time saying NO. Suddenly a household of one becomes a group of nine or ten&#8230; putting a strain on resources. And, if one household is allowed to do it, others will want to have the same consideration. The debate alone could split and weaken the community along social/philosophical delineations.


Any successful community will become the target or destination of everyone nearby, and has the potential to destroy the community if not wisely handled.



pakrat said:


> I think a neighborhood/community has the potential to be successful for a period of time, but current pervasive liberal, communist and socialist mindsets will do the same to that success that they have attempted do to this country&#8230; destroy it. Our society has been trained to gravitate toward dissatisfaction, dissention and chaos. Old habits die hard. SHTF will not alter that. Survival of the mentally fittest is the only cure. Only then will a community or group have more than temporary success.


The problem with liberals, communists, and socialists is that they have been protected from the results of their ideologies by the practicality of the rest of us. They don't know where they're going, because they've never experienced the final end of it. It's really just an intelligent theory to them. During SHTF, all kinds of groups will form and try to become self-sufficient, -and many will fail. The practical ones will tend to be the survivors.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> Thanks...which is also why I think any community plan short of the Senator's stronghold with the work ethic of Galt's Gulch is gonna fail.


Intelligent self-determinism, and the will to continue living, (no matter the adversity), will prevail.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

TGus said:


> Yes, I imagine it's pretty hopeless for the cities. Let's break the essential needs down by availability in Boston. Water: The Charles river runs through the center of Boston. Even if it becomes contaminated, the water can be boiled, and our flat rooftops can collect our adequate precipitation. So, water is not a huge problem. Shelter & security: The houses are almost all made of brick or stone, and the 1st floor windows tend to be high, so shelter & security won't be an insurmountable problem. We have very little violent crime anyway. Food: Gardens can be grown on roofs and local parks, and fished/gathered from the nearby ocean and river. Even so, it won't be enough to keep half of the population from starving. Heat: a quarter of the inner-city apartment buildings have working fireplaces, and the rest can improvise something, but lack of wood and house fires will become a big problem. Hygiene: Boston has huge gravity-fed reservoirs that will keep the water running for weeks on the lower floors, but after that, there are few places to put human waste. Diseases will spread, likely most seriously affecting those who do not find hygienic solutions.
> 
> Though each city and each community will have its own unique challenges, at least 2/3rds of the population is sure to die. -But neighborhoods whose residents work together intelligently and productively will be more likely to survive, though it will still be a difficult and needy life for them. I estimate that a half million, out of the current 2.5 million in Boston, will be able to survive longer than a year.* Luckily, I live outside the city and have much more abundant resources*.





TGus said:


> Any successful community will become the target or destination of everyone nearby, and has the potential to destroy the community if not wisely handled.
> 
> The problem with liberals, communists, and socialists is that they have been protected from the results of their ideologies by the practicality of the rest of us. They don't know where they're going, because they've never experienced the final end of it. It's really just an intelligent theory to them. *During SHTF, all kinds of groups will form and try to become self-sufficient, -and many will fail. The practical ones will tend to be the survivors.*


Hi. I'm curious, since you "live outside the city and have much more abundant resources"... to what end are you taking your ideas? Are you prepping to be an eventual part of a sustaining community...or is this all just a mental exercise for you? What actual things are you doing in the lines of the ideas you propose? A lot of your ideas, while on the surface seem somewhat good, don't really flesh out in reality. But I could be wrong and you might have a lot of real life experience with gathering water on roof-tops, etc... do you? Do you have actual hands-on experience in any of the other ideas you came up with? Thanks!


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## pakrat (Nov 18, 2012)

I’ve posted about my experiences before on this forum. My wife and I were part of off-grid survival communities in some of the most rural areas of this country, 40 years ago. We had a couple engineers, textile makers, horticulturists, carpenters, a couple nurses and a pretty good infusion of financial resources. The experiment worked well for about three years during the actual develop and building phases, but once the communities became settled and the larger challenges overcome, a seemingly endless series of interpersonal issues began. Egos, adulterous affairs, blame games over failures, complaints over lack of respect or inequitable recognition or value surfaced. In an 18 month period the entire community system fell into anarchy… everybody doing their own thing and refusing to work as a group or take someone else’s direction… chaos, human nature… not external threats or scant resources or even exhausting work demands. Four and a half years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears in, and the farms were abandoned and the community ceased to exist.

These were schooled intelligent dedicated people with many advantages over just some random collection of neighbors. And, yet their broken nature defeated them. I can’t imagine the same attempts amidst the pressures of a hostile SHTF world. I don’t think our modern psyche’s will allow us to transcend or devolve sufficiently to let us tribal-ize and survive. Perhaps our young children or our grand children could if they began in their developmental years, but our minds are much more terminal… wired to self-destruct, than we realize. Even with moderate success, we will commit societal suicide.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

pakrat said:


> I've posted about my experiences before on this forum. My wife and I were part of off-grid survival communities in some of the most rural areas of this country, 40 years ago. We had a couple engineers, textile makers, horticulturists, carpenters, a couple nurses and a pretty good infusion of financial resources. The experiment worked well for about three years during the actual develop and building phases, but once the communities became settled and the larger challenges overcome, a seemingly endless series of interpersonal issues began. Egos, adulterous affairs, blame games over failures, complaints over lack of respect or inequitable recognition or value surfaced. In an 18 month period the entire community system fell into anarchy&#8230; everybody doing their own thing and refusing to work as a group or take someone else's direction&#8230; chaos, human nature&#8230; not external threats or scant resources or even exhausting work demands. Four and a half years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears in, and the farms were abandoned and the community ceased to exist.
> 
> These were schooled intelligent dedicated people with many advantages over just some random collection of neighbors. And, yet their broken nature defeated them. I can't imagine the same attempts amidst the pressures of a hostile SHTF world. I don't think our modern psyche's will allow us to transcend or devolve sufficiently to let us tribal-ize and survive. Perhaps our young children or our grand children could if they began in their developmental years, but our minds are much more terminal&#8230; wired to self-destruct, than we realize. Even with moderate success, we will commit societal suicide.


Thanks for sharing that. It's nice to read words coming from a place of actual experience.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

MountainGirl said:


> If Lucifer's Hammer and Atlas Shrugged had a kid - it would be this thread.
> 
> If you haven't read both yet, you should. Start with the Hammer.
> 
> ...


I KNEW I liked you for a reason!

Lucifer's Hammer was an enjoyable read, especially the scene when the surfer got whacked. That was hilarious.

But Atlas! That is pure gold! I reread Atlas and Fountainhead about every 18-24 months just to keep my head screwed on right.

Atta Boy Girl!


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Inor said:


> I KNEW I liked you for a reason!
> 
> Lucifer's Hammer was an enjoyable read, especially the scene when the surfer got whacked. That was hilarious.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I read Hammer about every 6 months & need to read Atlas & Fountainhead again too. Did you know Ouray Colorado is the town setting Rand used for the gulch? I drove there, just to see it. Almost moved there but I'm no Dagny and it's no Gulch.

Edit: Yeah the surfer scene...like a flyswatter coming at him. :laughhard:
Edit2: Well...I'm kinda Dagny, lol


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

MountainGirl said:


> Thanks! I read Hammer about every 6 months & need to read Atlas & Fountainhead again too. Did you know Ouray Colorado is the town setting Rand used for the gulch? I drove there, just to see it. Almost moved there but I'm no Dagny and it's no Gulch.
> 
> Edit: Yeah the surfer scene...like a flyswatter coming at him. :laughhard:
> Edit2: Well...I'm kinda Dagny, lol


I did not know Ouray, CO was "the town".

But if you want to experience "The Gulch", you and Tom should come down to our little valley for a long weekend. The climate is very different, but culturally it is very definitely "The Gulch". That is why we are here.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Inor said:


> I did not know Ouray, CO was "the town".
> 
> But if you want to experience "The Gulch", you and Tom should come down to our little valley for a long weekend. The climate is very different, but culturally it is very definitely "The Gulch". That is why we are here.


 We just might do that, but it would have to be in the winter; my skin peels off in the heat lol. Cultural Gulch up here too: straight up, and you better know what the hell you're doin. Wannabe's & pretenders fail fast.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

pakrat said:


> I've posted about my experiences before on this forum. My wife and I were part of off-grid survival communities in some of the most rural areas of this country, 40 years ago. We had a couple engineers, textile makers, horticulturists, carpenters, a couple nurses and a pretty good infusion of financial resources. The experiment worked well for about three years during the actual develop and building phases, but once the communities became settled and the larger challenges overcome, a seemingly endless series of interpersonal issues began. Egos, adulterous affairs, blame games over failures, complaints over lack of respect or inequitable recognition or value surfaced. In an 18 month period the entire community system fell into anarchy&#8230; everybody doing their own thing and refusing to work as a group or take someone else's direction&#8230; chaos, human nature&#8230; not external threats or scant resources or even exhausting work demands. Four and a half years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears in, and the farms were abandoned and the community ceased to exist.
> 
> These were schooled intelligent dedicated people with many advantages over just some random collection of neighbors. And, yet their broken nature defeated them. I can't imagine the same attempts amidst the pressures of a hostile SHTF world. I don't think our modern psyche's will allow us to transcend or devolve sufficiently to let us tribal-ize and survive. Perhaps our young children or our grand children could if they began in their developmental years, but our minds are much more terminal&#8230; wired to self-destruct, than we realize. Even with moderate success, we will commit societal suicide.


One thing is certain and predictable ..... the nature of Man. World history backs it up.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

TGus said:


> Food: Gardens can be grown on roofs and local parks


That's it? That's all it takes, plus maybe catching a few fish? You understand for experienced farmers, it can take a minimum of one acre per person, with many groups saying up to 5? Where will all this seed come from? Have you given thought to what food would be best to grow to maximize nutrition & calories? Are all these seeds open pollinated so that you can save seed for next year? Where will all the tools come from? How do you protect these gardens from some of the hundreds of thousands of starving folk nearby? What will you do during drought or when an unexpected freeze kills off all your work? How will you stop plant disease and insect attack? Mother Nature can be a bitch. You really have that many experienced farmers in the city?

For any plan to work requires preparation. Besides dreaming about this, how are you prepared to actually make it work? Just saying we can grow crops in the parks or on the roofs ain't a plan. At the point you provide a workable answer/solution for all these questions, and a hundred more, then maybe you have a chance.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

TGus said:


> Food: Gardens can be grown on roofs and local parks


Let's not forget the fertile grounds of the subway! Oh My!


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

A Watchman said:


> Let's not forget the fertile grounds of the subway! Oh My!


I was playing nice & didn't even go there. Like, where is all this rich, garden soil going to come from & who is going to haul it by hand up on the roofs of dozens/hundreds of buildings?


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## 0rocky (Jan 7, 2018)

Smitty901 said:


> More like Homie will beat, kill and take anything they have weather they needed it or not.


C'mon Smitty901, you must be some kind of pessimist. Look at what the nice folks (read that as protesters) in Baltimore did a few years back. Ooops, you're a realist, not a pessimist. I like watching the less fortunate get a chance to go on "shopping sprees".

Far too many, I believe realistic post apocalyptic movies and books out there showing what "life" will be like. If that is not convincing and I understand nay sayers thinking that this is Hollywood or some ones idea of what post catastrophe life could be like, look no further than how real life examples have played out. Baltimore, Ferguson had a police presence and post Katrina where the police went home, IMHO, gives all of us a sneak preview of what life in a SHTF or WROL life will be like. Bands of marauders went and took food, etc from the aged. They start with the soft targets first then work their way up the food chain.

Just my cheerful outlook.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I am not sure how anybody (even me) could make it work.. it is not like you have a community of like minded folks willing to get together and plant crops and fish..... NY, Detroit, Chicago, Miami, LA.. you will have takers like locusts feeding on the labors of others and killing them or leaving them to die.

not enough land in major cities to grow crops.. the best they could hope for is to have uncle sam arrive with help... which in the event of a major SHTF will be short lived

Serious.. lets look at the things need for survival.. 

WATER - CLEAN WATER... unless you are prepared now to filter it you are going to be sick if you live in a city .... tell me how you are going to get enough CLEAN water to live... how many other GROUPS territories will you have to pass through to get it 

Food - where is the renewable source of food

shelter... how will you heat the place in the middle of sub zero winter


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

******* said:


> That's it? That's all it takes, plus maybe catching a few fish? You understand for experienced farmers, it can take a minimum of one acre per person, with many groups saying up to 5? Where will all this seed come from? Have you given thought to what food would be best to grow to maximize nutrition & calories? Are all these seeds open pollinated so that you can save seed for next year? Where will all the tools come from? How do you protect these gardens from some of the hundreds of thousands of starving folk nearby? What will you do during drought or when an unexpected freeze kills off all your work? How will you stop plant disease and insect attack? Mother Nature can be a bitch. You really have that many experienced farmers in the city?
> 
> For any plan to work requires preparation. Besides dreaming about this, how are you prepared to actually make it work? Just saying we can grow crops in the parks or on the roofs ain't a plan. At the point you provide a workable answer/solution for all these questions, and a hundred more, then maybe you have a chance.


Right. And unless @TGus can come back and prove otherwise... he's like the people who have read all kinds of books on construction but never had a hammer in their hands.

Everybody is entitled to their own delusions- forces of nature will weed them out quickly. The danger in posts of this nature is when others here, especially those who are just learning how to prep, start to believe this spew and bank their lives, and the lives of their families, on it.

JMO


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## acidMia (Aug 3, 2016)

For all the positives I can think of with my current neighbours and the sense of community, I can't shake the pessimistic (realistic?) thought train that, while the dozen or so houses directly surrounding mine would be well and good (older generations that know a thing or two about manually doing a thing or two, already run solar/alternative energy sources and rain collection, maintain gardens with seeds and surplus year over year, etc), that doesn't account for the other couple hundred houses in the streets surrounding us. Nor does it take into account the fact that we're about 500ft from the back of a WalMart - once that place is ransacked, the next 'logical' thought is that the houses nearest to it obviously got there first and so they have the supplies these slackers need. I guess the one saving grace is that we aren't directly across the front of it.


If only I could pick us all up and move us far away :sad2:


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Camel923 said:


> I do not see people banding together successfully in places like Newark, Detroit and other bastions of liberalism. I predict they will eat each other.


The S has NOT YET hit the fan in these cities and they eat each other (not in a nice way) already. I remember during the Mini WROL during the riots in Baltimore, they were murdering each other in a fast pace. It was like a free day to do whatever you want without consequence. Just imagine if it was a full blown SHTF.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> Right. And unless @TGus can come back and prove otherwise... he's like the people who have read all kinds of books on construction but never had a hammer in their hands.
> 
> Everybody is entitled to their own delusions- forces of nature will weed them out quickly. The danger in posts of this nature is when others here, especially those who are just learning how to prep, start to believe this spew and bank their lives, and the lives of their families, on it.
> 
> JMO


I can't prove it to you, but I've been an ardent prepper since 1999, and a survivalist for half my 63 year old life. -And there's nothing wrong with reading a lot of books. I read at least one per week, and it used to be 2. Furthermore, I've organized survival outings, and been in many leadership and administrative positions since I was 25. If you want proof of my experience, I suggest you read past posts of mine, and see how realistic or practical the suggestions are.

Lastly, please don't resort to ad hominem attacks when you can't argue successfully against someone else's points. Why attack me, when I have nothing but respect for you?


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

if I'm stuck in this heavily populated area and something really bad happens, probably the best I can hope for is to keep indoors for a few months then if we're lucky we could bug out after the dust settles.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Wow. Defensive? She hasn't said much that the rest of us haven't. 
OF course, I will give you the benefit of this: there are a lot of long time prepper who have never actually attempted to carry that bug out bag further than across the living room, who have a collection of survival manuals, and have done all their camping in state park campgrounds. Some of them I would wager are on this forum.
Show us credible evidence your musings are viable, and most of the group around here will still want to debate, but will have more respect for your ramblings.
And knowing @MountainGirl from other forums, she can demonstrate her off grid survival theories.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

TGus said:


> Lastly, please don't resort to ad hominem attacks when you can't argue successfully against someone else's points. Why attack me, when I have nothing but respect for you?


Argue against what points? What points have you made? Which of my questions have you answered? You state doing what you propose could keep half of Boston from starving... by growing food in parks, on the roofs and catching some fish. That is over 300,000 people. So please fill in the details of how this works, starting from scratch with no warning & no preparation. I stress about providing for at most two dozen people yet you want to provide for whole neighborhoods.

No one is attacking you but whenever someone posts something like you, and provides no specifics, well the folks in the know about such matters are going to question you. We don't want fantasy written here that might influence beginner preppers. @MountainGirl lives the rural life, as do I and others. I know what it takes to even begin to hope for self-sufficiency. I know not from reading but from years of trial & error as well as many thousands of dollars of preps. I can't begin to tell you how many failures I've had... some of my own doing & some due to that bitch, Mother Nature. Bugs have taken out all of my squash and really harmed my amaranth. A late frost last year took out most of my fruit on trees. Fire blight has caused me to replace over half of my 150 or so apple trees. Point being, a failure today is no big deal. It is part of the learning curve. Now is the time to find out what works & what doesn't and how to fix problems... not during a crisis. During the crisis, any major failure is the difference between ample food on the table and starvation... between life & death.

To illustrate. Amaranth, IMO is the best source of food for any prepper. It grows like a weed,well because it is a weed. It doesn't require fertilizer and can handle drought. The whole plant, at one stage in its life is edible. Each plant can produce over 100,000 seed and each plant is as big or bigger than corn. The seeds are tiny & take up little space. The seeds can be ground into flour & the leaves are incredibly nutritious. It is a superfood. Sounds great but my tests found out that it takes a lot of skill to process that many tiny seeds into flour. Also found out bugs attacked my plot big time. So it is great but I have concerns. So I have modified my preps to still include lots of corn, which is easier to make flour from and will use the amaranth for a summer green, as it loves the heat. Because of the bug attack, I increased my stores of Spinosad greatly. I still have much testing to do with it but I'm just trying to illustrate how difficult the process is to provide your own food.

You ask if there is a solution for city folks. My experience says there is none besides getting out early or holing up somewhere & hoping to survive until things calm down some. You seem to think there is a solution & bring up some "points". We just want details & answers to the questions raised so far. If you answer those, there will be many more. That is the nature of a discussion forum.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> Hi. I'm curious, since you "live outside the city and have much more abundant resources"... to what end are you taking your ideas? Are you prepping to be an eventual part of a sustaining community...or is this all just a mental exercise for you? What actual things are you doing in the lines of the ideas you propose? A lot of your ideas, while on the surface seem somewhat good, don't really flesh out in reality. But I could be wrong and you might have a lot of real life experience with gathering water on roof-tops, etc... do you? Do you have actual hands-on experience in any of the other ideas you came up with? Thanks!


Thank you MountainGirl. I replied to one of your later posts with the ad hominem argument. I'm sorry I didn't get to this one first. Since I became a prepper in 1999, I've considered the arguments for staying in my home in the Boston suburbs vs. getting out of Dodge before SHTF, (which I consider to be near-certain). I've lived in and around Boston all my life, so I'm very familiar with what's here, and what isn't. I prefer to try to stay where I am come SHTF. I picked this place because it's a low crime city, there are at least 6 large stocked reservoirs within 2 miles of me, there is a huge wildlife preserve within 3 blocks of me, where I have 2 bug-out locations and caches, my neighbors are practical people with skills useful after SHTF. And that's just some of the good reasons I'll stay if possible.

I plan for the worst, -no electricity, WROL, and perhaps one disaster or another on top of it, and years of SHTF, and losing my home and all my possessions. This is the situation I prep for, and survival skills with nothing but the clothes on my back play a big part in it. For much of my life, I've regularly practiced these survival skills in the forests of New Hampshire and Maine. I've gardened since age 15, hunted for the past 12 years, fished since I was a kid, and trapped for about 7 years. I've also learned a hundred+ nutritious plants abundant in my area, some of which I eat regularly. I can, and have, lived in the wilderness, bringing no food with me, for up to a month. I feel adequate about what I can do. But I am a serious Christian. If my community needs me, I will help them as much as I can without endangering my family.

Have you ever seen true poverty, -with 7 people living in a room, no toilets, no clean water, eating local weeds to survive? I've seen it, -and coming from a place that has everything, it has really taught me how little people need to survive. "Comfortable" was not a word they understood. They were uneducated, sick, malnourished, in an un-secure environment, -but they survived. You too, would be surprised at what people can "achieve" if they have the will to live.

I've been working on a 20 page post-SHTF manual for the Boston suburbs for several years now, to help as many communities as possible survive. It covers everything from group organization to defensive tactics. During my research in creating the manual, I've had to think realistically about the problems communities here would face, so I'm probably not naive in my evaluation.

Come SHTF, I intend to be a resource to help people survive. This is the mission I have given myself. I plan to help form a community around me, and for them to form communities around our community, and so on, and so on, until everyone willing to work for sufficiency for many many miles around has access to the skills they need to survive, if it is possible. I am not the only prepper in this area. Maybe, 3% understand the need to prepare, and they will have a part in helping their communities too. For many, it will not be possible to survive, but my personal best estimate is that 20+% should be able to survive the direst SHTF in this city, if they know how. As I see it, 1/3rd will die of violence, another third of starvation, and a final third of the 80% will die of disease.

I have no illusions about how difficult an SHTF situation could be and how many people will die as a result, but I have also seen how little people can survive on and I intend to help as many as I can to survive. You can be the pessimist, and declare from far away that they will all die.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

TGus said:


> I've been working on a 20 page post-SHTF manual for the Boston suburbs for several years now, to help as many communities as possible survive. It covers everything from group organization to defensive tactics. During my research in creating the manual, I've had to think realistically about the problems communities here would face, so I'm probably not naive in my evaluation.
> 
> Come SHTF, I intend to be a resource to help people survive. This is the mission I have given myself. I plan to help form a community around me, and for them to form communities around our community, and so on, and so on, until everyone willing to work for sufficiency for many many miles around has access to the skills they need to survive, if it is possible.


OK, we know what you want to do but the question is how do you do it? In your manual, how do you provide food for hundreds or thousands of folks? How does this group become self-sufficient? What will make anyone listen to you... a stranger? What is the glue to hold your massive group/groups together?

I will similarly build a group but just a small one of neighbors that know each other. I hope they will listen to me because I have a plan and preps in place. I can provide food to last them around 150 days. I have seed, tools & the know how to grow open pollinated foods... foods tested for this area and selected to provide food from February thru December. There are medical professionals living on our lane & the local dentist and his family has already been invited to the farm during a crisis. We have farmers & ranchers on our lane, with hundreds of cows, bees, gardens & very large equipment. I have enough hand tools for the group to farm by hand.

I don't expect these neighbors to work together because I'm such a smart, well read dude but because I have tangible supplies waiting for them along with a plan. I can offer them hope but folks need more than hope. They will need to know they will not starve. They will want to see the food & the seed... not a 20 page manual.

So please move beyond the intellectual planning and explain the implementation. Give us specifics. Tell us specifically where the food comes from 6 months into the crisis? A year? If you are growing food in parks all over the city, how do you keep gangs of starving, desperate folks from overwhelming your security and taking/ruining everything? When the gardens are destroyed, what do you do next? There are so many questions but how about just answering a few?


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

TGus said:


> Come SHTF, I intend to be a resource to help people survive. This is the mission I have given myself. I plan to help form a community around me, and for them to form communities around our community, and so on, and so on...


This speaks volumes. It shows either your immense ego, thinking you can save your world - or - your good intentions and heart, wanting to save people from strife. Likely, both as it keeps you at the center. Either way, good luck with that, and I wish you well.

My time is limited so I'll yield to others to engage regarding your phantasmal ideas; always with the hope that they are seen for what they are.

Peace out.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

******* said:


> OK, we know what you want to do but the question is how do you do it? In your manual, how do you provide food for hundreds or thousands of folks? How does this group become self-sufficient? What will make anyone listen to you... a stranger? What is the glue to hold your massive group/groups together?
> ...
> I don't expect these neighbors to work together because I'm such a smart, well read dude but because I have tangible supplies waiting for them along with a plan. I can offer them hope but folks need more than hope. They will need to know they will not starve. They will want to see the food & the seed... not a 20 page manual.
> 
> So please move beyond the intellectual planning and explain the implementation. Give us specifics. Tell us specifically where the food comes from 6 months into the crisis? A year? If you are growing food in parks all over the city, how do you keep gangs of starving, desperate folks from overwhelming your security and taking/ruining everything? When the gardens are destroyed, what do you do next? There are so many questions but how about just answering a few?


Ok, *******, I'll try to answer your extensive questions.

I'm not talking about communities numbering in the thousands, -more like a bunch of independent communities each including between 50 and 100 people, -about the number of people living on one Boston suburb block.

It's not where I want it to be yet, but I've had 200 copies of my manual printed for free, which I would distribute to separate communities. The manual does not provide food for people, but it tells them all the ways an individual or community can try to procure food, and what they can get, -by hunting, trapping (and traps), fishing, gathering, farming, individual bartering, and trading with other communities. I recommend that each community create a separate committee for each method which they will specialize in. I also state that communities should seek out experts in any area they need to learn, and barter to be taught by them, -but that they will almost always be hungry or even starving because there is not enough food for everyone.

I don't intend to become the leader of any group. I will be too busy teaching and teaching other teachers. Community leaders will listen to us because we have expertise their communities need to survive. If a community doesn't want us to teach skills to them, there are other communities that will want our series of classes and hands-on training. I also intend to offer my city government my services teaching a continuing series of survival classes at one of their auditoriums where their residents can attend and learn how to better survive.

As I said in a previous reply, the most important thing I will advocate for in the community I help found (my block) will be that they do outreach to encourage the blocks around us to find their own leaders and become independent self-sufficient communities, and that those communities, once founded do similar outreach to the blocks around them, and so on. Interlocking small communities have the advantages of mutual overwhelming defense, sharing expertise, and trading goods and services, -but they are finally each on their own regarding whether they survive or not.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

TGus said:


> I've been working on a 20 page post-SHTF manual for the Boston suburbs for several years now, to help as many communities as possible survive. It covers everything from group organization to defensive tactics. During my research in creating the manual, I've had to think realistically about the problems communities here would face, so I'm probably not naive in my evaluation.
> 
> Come SHTF, I intend to be a resource to help people survive. This is the mission I have given myself. I plan to help form a community around me, and for them to form communities around our community, and so on, and so on, until everyone willing to work for sufficiency for many many miles around has access to the skills they need to survive, if it is possible. I am not the only prepper in this area. Maybe, 3% understand the need to prepare, and they will have a part in helping their communities too. For many, it will not be possible to survive, but my personal best estimate is that 20+% should be able to survive the direst SHTF in this city, if they know how. As I see it, 1/3rd will die of violence, another third of starvation, and a final third of the 80% will die of disease.
> 
> I have no illusions about how difficult an SHTF situation could be and how many people will die as a result, but I have also seen how little people can survive on and I intend to help as many as I can to survive. You can be the pessimist, and declare from far away that they will all die.


No offense intended, but I would not want to be anywhere near I-95 (at least north of Richmond) when the balloon goes up!

According to the CDC, the NE cities have almost a 15% rate of opioid addiction. That does not include the inbred meth-heads in Providence, Wilmington or Newark. Do you think those people are going to be dealt with easily when their supplies dry up? Then you have the Micks in SOuth Boston, the Goombahs in every major city out there, MS-13 and the Puerto Ricans. Do you think they will not all try to take advantage of the situation WROL?

Now let's talk about the good people of Boston. There certainly are a bunch of them. I have spent some time in and around Boston and most of the folks I met were really great. But only about half had ever done any kind of manual labor. Most Bluebloods have never held a shovel, much less had any idea what to do with it. They have never shot a gun, dressed a deer or even had a callus. These are a group of people, no matter how motivated and well meaning they are, that cannot be taught basic gardening, hunting, fishing, trapping or any other kind of survival skills in a short enough time to save their skins.

And if you plan is to go out into the woods of Maine, New Hampshire or Vermont, that gets even more dicey. The drug problem in the cities out there are bad, but in the small towns it is absolutely epidemic.

I am really not trying to be a jerk, but please for the love of God, take your weird accent and go west young man! Go to where the skies are big and the land is empty. Where you can count on your neighbors, even if you do not know them very well. Trust me on this. I have traveled all over These United States and you really do not want to be in that I-95 corridor between Boston and D.C.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Inor said:


> No offense intended, but I would not want to be anywhere near I-95 (at least north of Richmond) when the balloon goes up!
> 
> According to the CDC, the NE cities have almost a 15% rate of opioid addiction. That does not include the inbred meth-heads in Providence, Wilmington or Newark. Do you think those people are going to be dealt with easily when their supplies dry up? Then you have the Micks in SOuth Boston, the Goombahs in every major city out there, MS-13 and the Puerto Ricans. Do you think they will not all try to take advantage of the situation WROL?
> 
> ...


Right on, I live 50 miles from Boob, I mean Bean Town.

Most of those living within Rt-2 will be dead along with 75% within Rt. 495 hub.

For the most part, good riddance, the bulk are O'thigger/Hildabitch lovers.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Recent graduate from the University of Tgus, 
Associate Degree in Urban Mountain Man Liberal Arts.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

A Watchman said:


> Let's not forget the fertile grounds of the subway! Oh My!


You do realize that rooftops take up about half the total area of a city like Boston?


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

SOCOM42 said:


> Right on, I live 50 miles from Boob, I mean Bean Town.
> 
> Most of those living within Rt-2 will be dead along with 75% within Rt. 495 hub.
> 
> For the most part, good riddance, the bulk are O'thigger/Hildabitch lovers.


I estimate about 80% dead within the first year.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Does anyone up there in Boston buy into your theories, or are you keeping them secret until the fateful event?


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Coastie dad said:


> Does anyone up there in Boston buy into your theories, or are you keeping them secret until the fateful event?


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Thank you, @Inor, for posting that wonderful footage of the latest meeting of the Future Rooftop Farmers of America.
Unlike its other better known cousin, the Future Farmers of America, the FRFA practices cultivation of the nutritious soils found 12 to 14 inches below the concrete and asphalt. Upon careful relocation of the soil to the rooftops several stories above the street, by way of stairs, the FRFA tills and prepares the soil using child drawn implements. The FRFA considers this technique vastly superior to the FFA's antiquated method of using rural farmland to grow crops.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Coastie dad said:


> Thank you, @Inor, for posting that wonderful footage of the latest meeting of the Future Rooftop Farmers of America.
> Unlike its other better known cousin, the Future Farmers of America, the FRFA practices cultivation of the nutritious soils found 12 to 14 inches below the concrete and asphalt. Upon careful relocation of the soil to the rooftops several stories above the street, by way of stairs, the FRFA tills and prepares the soil using child drawn implements. The FRFA considers this technique vastly superior to the FFA's antiquated method of using rural farmland to grow crops.


TOO MUCH!!!! ROFLMAO!!! :vs_peek:


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

MountainGirl said:


> If Lucifer's Hammer and Atlas Shrugged had a kid - it would be this thread.
> 
> If you haven't read both yet, you should. Start with the Hammer.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up on the reads, I haven't read either, but they just moved to the top of my list......


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

TGus said:


> Thank you MountainGirl. I replied to one of your later posts with the ad hominem argument. I'm sorry I didn't get to this one first. Since I became a prepper in 1999, I've considered the arguments for staying in my home in the Boston suburbs vs. getting out of Dodge before SHTF, (which I consider to be near-certain). I've lived in and around Boston all my life, so I'm very familiar with what's here, and what isn't. I prefer to try to stay where I am come SHTF. I picked this place because it's a low crime city, there are at least 6 large stocked reservoirs within 2 miles of me, there is a huge wildlife preserve within 3 blocks of me, where I have 2 bug-out locations and caches, my neighbors are practical people with skills useful after SHTF. And that's just some of the good reasons I'll stay if possible.
> 
> I plan for the worst, -no electricity, WROL, and perhaps one disaster or another on top of it, and years of SHTF, and losing my home and all my possessions. This is the situation I prep for, and survival skills with nothing but the clothes on my back play a big part in it. For much of my life, I've regularly practiced these survival skills in the forests of New Hampshire and Maine. I've gardened since age 15, hunted for the past 12 years, fished since I was a kid, and trapped for about 7 years. I've also learned a hundred+ nutritious plants abundant in my area, some of which I eat regularly. I can, and have, lived in the wilderness, bringing no food with me, for up to a month. I feel adequate about what I can do. But I am a serious Christian. If my community needs me, I will help them as much as I can without endangering my family.
> 
> ...


Are you going to tell everyone to call you Nagan, and have a friend name Lucille, just curious.......


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

TGus said:


> I've organized survival outings, and been in many leadership and administrative positions since I was 25.


where did you go on these survival outings???? out of the city????


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

TGus said:


> Ok, *******, I'll try to answer your extensive questions.
> 
> I'm not talking about communities numbering in the thousands, -more like a bunch of independent communities each including between 50 and 100 people, -about the number of people living on one Boston suburb block.


If just a few of these BLOCK groups decide they need more food and start TAKING from others.. the whole thing goes to crap

there are 673,000 people in boston that covers a 48 sq mile area.

that would be 6,700 groups.. out of those more then half will have *no food, no water, and no patience after 2 weeks.*. they will start stealing and killing each other and then move to areas that have food

POST SHTF encouraging people to be self sufficient and giving lessons and classes and offering advise ... will just let people know you HAVE things they need

if a picture is worth a 1,000 words


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

it is hard to dig a latrine in concrete


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

rstanek said:


> Are you going to tell everyone to call you Nagan, and have a friend name Lucille, just curious.......


Had to google nagan and lucille...lol walking dead is about right. :vs_laugh:


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> it is hard to dig a latrine in concrete


The muzzslimes will fair well, they just shit in the streets wherever they like, just like the trash in SOCAL.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

@MountainGirl,

My kid dressed up for Halloween as Negan for 2016.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

@SOCOM42 Did you go as Lucille? :tango_face_grin:


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

MountainGirl said:


> @SOCOM42 Did you go as Lucille? :tango_face_grin:


NO! I may be an old bat, but that bat is not me! LOL!

Can't tell that is a girl, won the local costume contest, she left with no one at the contest knowing she was a she.

The guys at the LGS knew, she works there.

She is a green eyed blond.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> If just a few of these BLOCK groups decide they need more food and start TAKING from others.. the whole thing goes to crap
> 
> there are 673,000 people in boston that covers a 48 sq mile area.
> 
> ...


Well crap, now I gotta cross Boston off as my bug out location.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

@TGus, What makes you think that the roofs in Boston will support the kind of weight you propose?

The structure would have to be built like a parking garage to support that weight.

What is going to happen to housing structures when water from a thunder storm saturates that dirt instead of just running off?

Answer, you will have an unburned Coconut Grove incident, building will go down like the twin towers

Now I am not even questioning the roof loading from the dirt itself.

I hate to say it, but I assume you have a lot of book/theoretical learning, but zero practical application experience.

You remind me of an author of a book on WW2 war birds.

He had all the right historical references,

details of the assembly drawings, and the stories of individual combat pilots mentioned.

But the man had no idea about how to fly an airplane, his description of how the control surfaces worked

were, well abysmal, laughable and ignorant.

Last but not least, the final page in the books picture showed what was supposed to be the airplane that

replaced the Boeing B-17, the Boeing B-29, wrong picture! the plane showed was a Boeing B-50.

Before you say how do I know, I have thousands of hours of flight time.

I put you in the same category as that author,

however in expertise there is one I know you do excel me in, typing,

You put out a whole single spaced page in the time I complete one sentence.

I am not too smart, but I have plenty practical application knowledge.

Plus I only have a bachelors in ME, far below your masters or PhD.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Most of us know its basic math:

A single cubic foot of topsoil weighs 40 lbs.
A single gallon of water weighs 8.3 lbs



SOCOM42 said:


> @TGus, What makes you think that the roofs in Boston will support the kind of weight you propose?
> 
> The structure would have to be built like a parking garage to support that weight.
> 
> ...


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

Coastie dad said:


> Does anyone up there in Boston buy into your theories, or are you keeping them secret until the fateful event?


I never admit that I'm a prepper; that would only invite trouble after SHTF, so, no, I haven't revealed my abilities, evaluations, or plans to anyone. They will remain secret until they are needed, if ever. However, I am revealing them to you, and I will continue to do so, because I value the opinions of the members of this and other forums I visit.

You can have all this and more for only $29.99, plus shipping and handling.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

Coastie dad said:


> Thank you, @Inor, for posting that wonderful footage of the latest meeting of the Future Rooftop Farmers of America.
> Unlike its other better known cousin, the Future Farmers of America, the FRFA practices cultivation of the nutritious soils found 12 to 14 inches below the concrete and asphalt. Upon careful relocation of the soil to the rooftops several stories above the street, by way of stairs, the FRFA tills and prepares the soil using child drawn implements. The FRFA considers this technique vastly superior to the FFA's antiquated method of using rural farmland to grow crops.


Actually, because the Boston Harbor was dredged, and topsoil moved from other areas hundreds of years ago, Boston sits on deep rich soil. If they covered parts of almost every flat rooftop in Havana with soil, it can be done here also. If I had nowhere better to go during SHTF, I'd do the same to feed the people in my building, -and I'd have dug a latrine for them in the process. We also have plenty of grassy areas on ground level that could be converted to gardens and guarded by bordering communities.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

Maine-Marine said:


> If just a few of these BLOCK groups decide they need more food and start TAKING from others.. the whole thing goes to crap
> 
> there are 673,000 people in boston that covers a 48 sq mile area.
> 
> ...


My classes will be about survival for those who have not prepped, because it's too late to prep after SHTF. I don't intend to reveal to ANYONE that I have anything more than everyone else has. I tend to be a minimalist about my prepping, so I don't have huge stores of anything in my home. I intend to rely on wild nutritious plants and small animals abundant near my home for primary food. They can steal my weeds and raccoons if they want them; I know where I can get more.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

If I may repeat something from my original post: "I know most of you think that the solution Cuba found would not happen here. I don't want to hear why it wouldn't work; (I can think of a lot of reasons myself).* I want to hear how you would make it work if you were stuck in it.*"

Very few of you have answered my question, -or even tried to. As I said above, I understand the problems. What I want to hear are your solutions i*n that scenerio*.

I've provided a scenario: you're a prepper who lives in a big city, and for whatever reason you can't leave during SHTF. What do you do where you live to ensure your health and safety against all the odds stacked against you and your family in an area with high population density?

My purpose for the thread was to get some good ideas I hadn't thought of from you "guys".


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Well, I reckon most of us that are responding can't answer that question because we don't choose to live in big cities and rely on the squirrels in the city park for sustenance. 
I would also feel pretty confident that most of the people here who do live in a big city have multiple contingency plans for escape, and if not they have plans to survive that they arent sharing. And since they aren't chiming in to sing your praises or validate your theories, well, I guess that tells me what I need to know.

On a side note...there are several seasonings designed for pork that should work well in taking that gamey taste out of roast gangsta thigh.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

SOCOM42 said:


> @TGus, What makes you think that the roofs in Boston will support the kind of weight you propose?
> 
> The structure would have to be built like a parking garage to support that weight.
> What is going to happen to housing structures when water from a thunder storm saturates that dirt instead of just running off?
> ...


This is a reply to you and A Watchman.

First do you dispute that Cuba's cities have many rooftop gardens? I'll assume that your answer is no, because you can find plenty of pictures of them on Google.

Second, do you know that Boston receives up to 3' of wet snow in blizzards at least every several years, and that wet snow accumulates and remains there for weeks, and that very few flat roofs in Boston cave in, even though the houses are hundreds of years old? They are made to handle a lot of weight, because we need that strength in our climate. If they can put gardens up in Cuba, where there's no snow, I'm sure we can do it in Boston.

Here's how my manual recommends that rooftop planters be placed: 
1) Chalk out the outline of the bearing walls below the roof.
2) Chalk out 2' on both sides of the bearing walls, and 3' along the roof edge.
3) This is where you can place 8" high planter boxes.
4) If you are also using the roof to collect rain, leave open corridors between the planters so the rain can reach the nearest gutters.

Of course, I've never created a rooftop garden, and I'm not going to bother trying before SHTF, but the above seems reasonable to me. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to learn from them.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

TGus said:


> I never admit that I'm a prepper; that would only invite trouble after SHTF, so, no, I haven't revealed my abilities, evaluations, or plans to anyone. They will remain secret until they are needed, if ever.  *However, I am revealing them to you, and I will continue to do so, because I value the opinions of the members of this and other forums I visit.**
> 
> You can have all this and more for only $29.99, plus shipping and handling*.





TGus said:


> If I may repeat something from my original post: "I know most of you think that the solution Cuba found would not happen here. I don't want to hear why it wouldn't work; (I can think of a lot of reasons myself).* I want to hear how you would make it work if you were stuck in it.*"
> 
> Very few of you have answered my question, -or even tried to. As I said above, I understand the problems. *What I want to hear are your solutions in that scenerio*.
> 
> I've provided a scenario: you're a prepper who lives in a big city, and for whatever reason you can't leave during SHTF. What do you do where you live to ensure your health and safety against all the odds stacked against you and your family in an area with high population density?


Finally, some truth. What you really want, TGus, is for this community to provide you with ideas so that you can market them. Nothing wrong with making an honest dollar - but your method is beyond disingenuous and if you did _"value the opinions of the members of this forum"_ you would realize that you have put a lot of time into something that is unworkable. Cut your losses.

By the way - since you claim to have survival skills.... what wild plants in your area have you consumed? When did you eat your last racoon or squirrel? What did you use to catch/kill it? Did you have difficulty skinning it? Which method did you use?


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

pakrat said:


> I've posted about my experiences before on this forum. My wife and I were part of off-grid survival communities in some of the most rural areas of this country, 40 years ago. We had a couple engineers, textile makers, horticulturists, carpenters, a couple nurses and a pretty good infusion of financial resources. The experiment worked well for about three years during the actual develop and building phases, but once the communities became settled and the larger challenges overcome, a seemingly endless series of interpersonal issues began. Egos, adulterous affairs, blame games over failures, complaints over lack of respect or inequitable recognition or value surfaced. In an 18 month period the entire community system fell into anarchy&#8230; everybody doing their own thing and refusing to work as a group or take someone else's direction&#8230; chaos, human nature&#8230; not external threats or scant resources or even exhausting work demands. Four and a half years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears in, and the farms were abandoned and the community ceased to exist.
> 
> These were schooled intelligent dedicated people with many advantages over just some random collection of neighbors. And, yet their broken nature defeated them. I can't imagine the same attempts amidst the pressures of a hostile SHTF world. I don't think our modern psyche's will allow us to transcend or devolve sufficiently to let us tribal-ize and survive. Perhaps our young children or our grand children could if they began in their developmental years, but our minds are much more terminal&#8230; wired to self-destruct, than we realize. Even with moderate success, we will commit societal suicide.


I like what you wrote. Thank you for sharing your experience, -and it was a hard lesson we can all learn from.

As a psychologist, what happened to your community is not surprising to me; it's exactly what I've heard from others who participated in such "cooperative" endeavors. But I don't believe it necessarily predicts what will ultimately happen to communities after SHTF. (It might; I don't know.) There's one important element that would apply after SHTF that's missing in your scenario. Put simply, it's: "Make it succeed, or die.". I think all the bad effects you described would still happen, but at some point, hopefully the participants would realize that such behavior jeopardized their survival, and they would begin to take responsibility for their actions. It would be a rough journey to that point though, and in the process, the group may well splinter into smaller groups, and each sub-group take on new members.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Well, like most psychologists, you're full of crap, but mildly entertaining.

You have no practical experience with what you are preaching, as opposed to those of us who actively use the same techniques we plan to use in case of an event.
You are trying to market, or plan on marketing plans that are untested. 

Your credibility is shot with me. Not that I figure you care.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

[email protected], how can you compare a country within the tropical zone to temperate Boston?

There is no similarities in housing either, 

a few individual raised gardens as a supplement in Cuba to the normal food chain is a far cry from a SHTF scenario here.

They have a 365 day growing season, no water shortage and the urban population density is also quite different.

You are fantasizing with your food plan.

The amount you could grow would be a waste of time, 

better off fishing outside the harbor or in the canal for stripers along with 900 others.

I am not going to give you any detailed info for you to use in any publication by you.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> By the way - since you claim to have survival skills.... what wild plants in your area have you consumed? When did you eat your last racoon or squirrel? What did you use to catch/kill it? Did you have difficulty skinning it? Which method did you use?


I'd say that by now, I've eaten at least 75 wild plants. The ones I like best that I can immediately think of are fried sunchoke with wild onion, clover and dandelion salad, raccoon soup with shredded young mulberry leaves, stir-fried lotus root with beef, rose hip and pine-needle or juniper tea, half acorn flour and half white flour pancakes with local blueberries in them, almost any seaweed sprinkled with sesame oil, all types of edible mushrooms, (especially puffballs), fried cattail rhizomes and inner stems with day lilies and mustard leaves, plantain and milkweed kimchi, fried lamb's quarters, stinging nettle and poor man's pepper in fried duck eggs, or fern fiddleheads and roots, burdock root in beef stew, any fruit pie thickened with mallow sap, black walnuts, maple seeds, elderberry wine, dandilion wine, chicory and acorn coffee. Just yesterday, I had microwaved ginkgo nuts. Sorry that I can't remember more of the things I like. I have my recipes written down somewhere, but I can't see them now. (I wrote a thread about wild edibles here recently, if you want to read it.)

I catch squirrel with rat traps attached to a 2x4 leaning against a tree. I also hunt them and rabbits with my air gun, because it's quiet, and I can take another shot if I miss. For raccoons, opossums, ducks, and geese, I use 330 conibear traps or spring snares with fish guts. I last had raccoon and squirrel during a week long camping trip into the Appalachians last fall. (I wrote a thread here describing it, if you want to look it up.) The only way I know to skin a raccoon or opossum is to hang them by the hind feet, and I still sometimes have trouble finding the scent glands above their hind ankles. For squirrels, I use a skinning method I learned from a teenager on Youtube. You slice into between the anus and the tailbone, put one foot on the tail, and just pull the hind feet until the skin reaches the head, then just cut the head with the flap of skin off.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

@TGus: Maybe you should move to Denver. They are already implementing your idea, albeit with some problems (most of which have already been outlined here). Plus, I think they are probably growing dope in most of their rooftop gardens, but you could improvise if you wish.

Denver grappling over how to enforce stringent mandatory roof gardens rule | Fox News


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

Coastie dad said:


> Well, like most psychologists, you're full of crap, but mildly entertaining.
> 
> You have no practical experience with what you are preaching, as opposed to those of us who actively use the same techniques we plan to use in case of an event.
> You are trying to market, or plan on marketing plans that are untested.
> ...


OK, you're a hard sell. I'l give it all to *you *for only $19.99, (but you still have to pay for shipping & handling).


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

MountainGirl said:


> Finally, some truth. What you really want, TGus, is for this community to provide you with ideas so that you can market them. Nothing wrong with making an honest dollar - but your method is beyond disingenuous and if you did _"value the opinions of the members of this forum"_ you would realize that you have put a lot of time into something that is unworkable. Cut your losses.


The $29.99 offer was a joke. (Wait till you see how much shipping & handling costs!)


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)




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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

I’ve written a book on how to find a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, $29.99 , plus shipping, oh, just so you know, you have to find your own rainbow......just so I won’t be banned, (Sarcasm)....


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

hawgrider said:


>


Yeah, we know lol. I just wanted to see if its survival skills equaled the rest of the spew and it does: straight off the online Starbarfs RoadKill cookbook.

I'm savin my money for @rstanek 's pot of gold book.


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## yooper_sjd (May 14, 2017)

TGus said:


> I never admit that I'm a prepper; that would only invite trouble after SHTF, so, no, I haven't revealed my abilities, evaluations, or plans to anyone. They will remain secret until they are needed, if ever. However, I am revealing them to you, and I will continue to do so, because I value the opinions of the members of this and other forums I visit.
> 
> You can have all this and more for only $29.99, plus shipping and handling.


that right there is crock of horse crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your first few lectures (started threads) and all the answers you gave totally contradict what you just said here!!!!! From observing your posts your first few weeks here in the forum, I even posted a pic of Boston and had your neighbor hood narrowed down!!!!! Your surounded by parks, lakes ect. You go on annual trips into the mountains with bare minimum supplies to practice your bush craft. You have 3 bug out/cache areas in the greater boston area. And all of this is just from my memory!!! I did not have to look it up. And now you are tapping the knowledge data base here for you to make money off of for offering survival courses in a suburb enviroment???????? You sir are about as low as low can go. Slug slime in my opinion. Your profit, your gain.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

hawgrider said:


>


The definition of a "shill" is someone who either represents a hidden party's interests for profit, or someone who misrepresents themselves to accomplish a hidden agenda. -Or I guess "shill" could mean something else to you.

It would interest me to know: Which do you think I am? Who am I secretly representing, or what's my hidden agenda? Otherwise, what's your personal meaning of the word "shill"?

Please read more of my posts on other subjects here before you answer this.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

In a recent interview, Selco, who survived through a year of the Balkan war in a city under siege and constant shelling, without running water, electricity, food distribution, gasoline, or medical services, surrounded by violent gangs, without law enforcement, said:

“We were ordinary city folks who did not have a lot of knowledge about stuff .... So we learned that, but it took us time to learn. We were not preppers in any meaning of that word.”

He claims that many people in the city with him learned the skills they needed to survive through trial and error. Those that didn’t, died.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

yooper_sjd said:


> that right there is crock of horse crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your first few lectures (started threads) and all the answers you gave totally contradict what you just said here!!!!! From observing your posts your first few weeks here in the forum, I even posted a pic of Boston and had your neighbor hood narrowed down!!!!! Your surounded by parks, lakes ect. You go on annual trips into the mountains with bare minimum supplies to practice your bush craft. You have 3 bug out/cache areas in the greater boston area. And all of this is just from my memory!!! I did not have to look it up. And now you are tapping the knowledge data base here for you to make money off of for offering survival courses in a suburb enviroment???????? You sir are about as low as low can go. Slug slime in my opinion. Your profit, your gain.


Please look at the replies just previous to your's. I believe that will solve your problem.

Do you always think the worst of people when it seems that is true? If so, you may be missing out on a lot of good friends.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Yeah, yeah...redirect. 

You're a bookworm bullshitter that has limited experience outside the world of the printed page.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

TGus said:


> Who am I secretly representing?


Yourself - as someone who knows what they're talking about. You don't.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Coastie dad said:


> Yeah, yeah...redirect.
> 
> You're a bookworm bullshitter that has limited experience outside the world of the printed page.


:vs_smirk:
Y'all have fun, I'm going to try out the Ignore function.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Ah...don't let him get under your skin. As my uncle would say, he's a good kid, just craps a little close to the house.


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## MountainGirl (Oct 29, 2017)

Coastie dad said:


> Ah...don't let him get under your skin. As my uncle would say, he's a good kid, just craps a little close to the house.


Nah...just bored with it.


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## RubberDuck (May 27, 2016)

Simple and accurate gif for this guys thread









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## hawgrider (Oct 24, 2014)

TGus said:


> The definition of a "shill" is someone who either represents a hidden party's interests for profit, or someone who misrepresents themselves to accomplish a hidden agenda. -Or I guess "shill" could mean something else to you.
> 
> It would interest me to know: Which do you think I am? Who am I secretly representing, or what's my hidden agenda? Otherwise, what's your personal meaning of the word "shill"?
> 
> Please read more of my posts on other subjects here before you answer this.


Shill


> shortened from shillaber a circus barker,


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Damn, I go to Dallas for a few days & miss all the fun. 

Don't be too hard on @TGus, our resident Dear Leader/Dear Teacher. At least he discusses prepping and believe you me, we need more of that here... and less politics. I think maybe the biggest issue has to do with semantics. This post was about SHTF in the cities but all the examples & discussion has nothing to do with a SHTF event but simply with a crisis. To me, they are not the same. To me, a SHTF event connotates the total break down of civilization and social order (Urban Dictionary). There will be no government or organizations to provide assistance. You will be on your own & you will have to rebuild society one piece at a time. But a crisis does not go that far. Think of the great depression or Cuba, as mentioned. In both situations there was no loss of government. There was still a military. The event did not happen overnight.

I think it wrong to say the events in Cuba, after the Soviet Union breakup, were a SHTF event. It was a crisis, sure enough, but the government did not fail and help was provided by outsiders... including the US. There was still an economy. Folks had assistance & time to react & change. Australian and other permaculturists arriving in Cuba at the time began to distribute aid and taught their techniques to locals, who soon implemented them in Cuban fields, raised beds, and urban rooftops across the nation (cubahistory.org). Much done in Cuba could be considered similar to the Victory Gardens in the US during WWII. These did not spring up overnight and assistance was provided to start raising food to supplement the diet... not become self-sufficient.

The question was asked if cities could become self-sufficient after a SHTF crisis, and I still say not a chance. It will be nothing like what happened in Cuba. You will not have time to haul tons of dirt to a roof by hand & why would anyone do something so foolish when you have no seed, fertilizer, insecticide, or training? And even if you had all the resources you needed (not a friggin' chance in the world), you don't have the space on roofs & parks to grow enough food... even if you could protect the gardens. What part of 1-5 acres per person do you not understand? Yes, experts who have gardened all their life, with every modern convenience and with perfect garden plots from years of work can grow lots of food on less acreage... but that won't happen with rookies trying to garden on a roof or park.

You see, there is a world of difference between self-sufficiency and augmentation of rations. Everything the OP mentions has to do with augmentation... not self-sufficiency. Fishing the local water augments the diet short term but the fish diminish quickly... not self-sufficient. Hunting/trapping what animals are in a city augments the diet short term but soon their numbers drop to where they provide next to no calories... not self-sufficient. Scrounging edible plant life in a city will short term add to the diet, depending on the season but simply adds a tiny amount to the daily caloric needs of a huge group... not self-sufficient. Even if you have all the proper garden seed and farming product needed, gardens on a roof or city park will only augment the diet and not provide enough calories for so many people and will result in starvation... not self-sufficient.

So get real. If you experience a real SHTF crisis in Boston, where society/government/security ends within hours or days... you are f'd. There will be no seed and other supplies, thus no gardens. You will starve as every single method you have mentioned to provide food for these huge groups is insufficient for their needs and worse... is not self-sufficient.

Self-sufficiency is all about math. On average, each person needs around 1 million calories per year... every year. That is where the one acre (or more) per person of garden comes from. Then you can augment this, in ways such as you have mentioned, such as hunting, fishing, wild edibles, etc. But for these other augmentation methods to be part of a self-sufficient lifestyle, they can't be decimated by throngs of folks eating every last one... it has to be controlled. Some folks think I'm crazy for having so many apple trees but they are an example of a renewable food supply. There are about 250 calories in a pound of apples. An acre orchard of apples can produce 16,0000 lbs of apples. That is 4 million calories every year. My catfish pond is the same. With proper practices, it can provide a steady protein diet forever. But the key to self-sufficiency is the garden. That is where the bulk of your calories & nutrition will come from. Since it is so critical, it would be criminal to suggest folks to garden to survive without first having all the seed & supplies already in storage... plus enough land to produce enough calories for the whole group.

To put it simply, if you want an example of how a community can be self-sufficient, don't look at the Cubans... study the native Americans.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

******* said:


> Damn, I go to Dallas for a few days & miss all the fun.
> 
> Don't be too hard ...


I haven't read your post yet, but I already want to compliment you on how much thought and effort you put into your replies. Of everyone here, I think I've learned the most from you. Thanks. Now I'll read your post.


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## TGus (Sep 18, 2017)

******* said:


> ...
> 
> To put it simply, if you want an example of how a community can be self-sufficient, don't look at the Cubans... study the native Americans.


I agree with everything you said, -except this last line. There are just too damned many people in this country to feed during SHTF by any means I know. I would estimate that there are only enough resources to support 20% on a starvation diet at best. That 20-% are going to have to have some smarts and get their asses in gear quickly to have a fighting chance. -Which is why we prep. -Because nothing short of that will ensure our survival come SHTF.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

TGus said:


> I agree with everything you said, -except this last line. There are just too damned many people in this country to feed during SHTF by any means I know. I would estimate that there are only enough resources to support 20% on a starvation diet at best. That 20-% are going to have to have some smarts and get their asses in gear quickly to have a fighting chance. -Which is why we prep. -Because nothing short of that will ensure our survival come SHTF.


I didn't say study the native Americans to figure out how Boston or the whole country can survive a SHTF event... but how a community could. This community couldn't be in a huge city surrounded by thousands of folks. Would have to be rural and as with the native Americans, they would have to have seed & food in storage.


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## yooper_sjd (May 14, 2017)

Fnor said:


> You have a very interesting view of what happened in Cuba


needs whipping with a wet noodle for resurrecting the Professors thread:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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