# 230v Well Pump connected to an Inverter



## CrackPot

I finally got my solar panels hooked-up right and generating over 3000 watts a day (6 panels). They're able to fully recharge my eight #29DC batteries in less than a day. I've moved my fridge over to be solar powered full-time (with a cutover switch back to grid if the batteries get too low). I'll need a few more batteries as the fridge will only run for 2 days with no sun (rarely happens) - I'll be getting those shortly. This will keep the food from going bad in a grid-down situation.

Now I want to get my well pump moved over in the same fashion so that we have water and can shower. I purchased a 5,000 watt, 230v inverter but I'm not positive how to wire it up. The well pump now is fed by (2) 115v breakers (a double-breaker) so it's 230v between the 2 legs. The Inverter, however, has connections for 230v and Neutral:









My question is... Can I wire the 230v to one leg and the Neutral to the other leg (again, making 240 volts across the legs)?

I really don't want to to screw it up and burn up a $1,000 submersible pump!

Thanks!


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## HuntingHawk

My question is... Can I wire the 230v to one leg and the Neutral to the other leg (again, making 240 volts across the legs)?
NO

You are actually using two phased 120V legs for the switching relay & pump. For an inverter to operate the pressure switch & pump it must have the same output or you will burn up the pump.

EDIT: Also, if its 50HZ instead of 60HZ you will burn the pump up.


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## HuntingHawk

This is what I have on my list for an inverter for my well pump.

Aims 5000 Watt Power Inverter 240VAC 60HZ


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## CrackPot

That's the inverter I bought HuntingHawk - same model (yes, it's 60Hz). The terminal strip has 230v, neutral, ground. The problem with the outlet plugs is they are European style and I can't find a mating plug at the Home Depot or Lowes. Again, I'm not even sure they are 115v legs or 230v and a neutral.

So, from what I reading from your post, I need a 230v inverter that has (2) phased 115v. How do you even find that?


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## HuntingHawk

Email one of the companies that sales inverters & tell them what you need. If you take a voltmeter to your pressure switch when attached to commercial power you will fine each side of the switch is using 120VAC.


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## HuntingHawk

"This inverter is not capable of providing two legs of 110, it is not a split phase inverter."

So that Aims will not work.


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## CrackPot

Right. I used a voltmeter and see the 115v each, but 230v "across" the 2 legs. I was asking because the inverter also has 230v "across" it's 2 legs. But, as you said, it's not the same thing (115+115 vs. 230+0?).

I'll check into an inverter supply house and ask them.

Another thread on a different board suggested just pulling the 230v pump and installing a 115v pump. I have a 1.5Hp pump, and might be overkill. A 1/2Hp 115v might work - I'll call my well guys and ask them about feasibility. If it'll work I might just buy my own pump (to save their markup) and just pay them to install it.

I'd suggest holding off on your purchase then as well until we have a solid answer.


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## CrackPot

Maybe this as a better choice for inverter...

Amazon.com: RISING 2000W Peak 6000W AC Input 220V Output 110V and 220V Split Phase Pure Sine Wave Inverter Charger 65A 12V: Electronics


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## HuntingHawk

If I'm reading the specs right there is one 110VAC output which will not work.


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## HuntingHawk

You can't use two separate 120VAC output inverters to operate the switch & pump as they won't be phased.


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## HuntingHawk

This is what I have specifically for my well pump.
Champion Power Equipment? 3500W/4000W Portable Generator - Tractor Supply Co.

Generator has two phased 120VAC windings which are combined for the 240VAC output. So you tap the neutral/common plus each leg for the pressure switch.


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## CrackPot

Yeah, I have a Honda EM6500 generator for the house, but 25 gallons of gas only buys a few days at most. I'm looking for a long-term solution, like months of no gas or money to get it.

After looking again, you're right - that inverter is not even close. I'll do more digging and post my results. Thanks for your help!


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## alterego

HuntingHawk said:


> This is what I have on my list for an inverter for my well pump.
> 
> Aims 5000 Watt Power Inverter 240VAC 60HZ


I talked to a solar professional. I think if you do the math the 230 pump is running up to 4200 watts. In order to operate my house I am looking at an 8000 surge to 12 aims inverter. It is only a few hundred more for the bigger inverter.

The problem with the bigger inverter is the cooling fans and the 10 percent loss. Consume power.


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## CrackPot

Fortunately I know which pump model we have (replaced it in 2010), it's a Gould's 7G, 11 stage, 1/2hp, full load is 740 watts (service factor 1050 watts), so I don't need a huge inverter - but I plan on getting at least a 3000 watt. I just need to find one with L1 and L2. Power Jack's 2015 model has L1 and L2 in a 12v to 230v split phase, but I'm not sure I trust them.


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## paraquack

It would help to know the amp draw of the pump motor (FLA xxxx)


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## CrackPot

The FLA for the pump is 4.0


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## paraquack

The start up surge is going to be high. Probably 2-3 times the 4 amp draw. If the tank is allowed to go to a very low pressure, the surge will be less. 3000 W should be able to do the job. Your talking about a 80 amp (12VDC) from the battery. That's pretty big load. How long does the pump run to fill the tank. Hope it's around 5 minutes for an empty tank. That would cut the draw down to 8 amp battery draw per cycle.

In theory the Rising inverter for $645 would handle the job. But I'd like to see more hook up info etc, before I drop the hammer.


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## alterego

AIMS Power (PICOGLF80W48V240VS) 8kW 48V DC to 120/240V AC Pure Sine Inverter Charger. Price:$2,524.00*+ Free Shipping About this item

The AIMS 8000 watt 48V dc Pure Sine Inverter Charger was designed for commercial, industrial and off grid uses where a 48V dc power supply is available and 120/240V ac split phase power is needed. Capable of maintaining a 300 Percent surge for up to 20 seconds, this inverter now features an auxiliary output designed for large centrifugal pumps. The built in auto transfer switch can accept utility or generator power in order to run the built in smart battery charger. Equipped with an Auto Gen Start feature, this inverter is also able to turn on Auto Gen Start compatible generators when the batteries reach low voltage. At 48V dc this inverter is also more efficient, and will allow you to use smaller DC cables than comparable 12V or 24V systems. A 48V dc system is also beneficial for large solar arrays as it will minimize the number of solar charge controllers needed.

This is what is suggested to run a well pump along with other loads that may happen at the same time decades of surge draw.


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## CrackPot

Thanks alterego - you pointed me in the right direction! It looks like their sister product will work as well (at less than 40% the price): $932.00 - it has the split phase, L1 & L2 output in 230v mode.

With 4,000 watts, if the start surge is 3x run, and run is 740 watts, then this one would cover it.

http://www.invertersrus.com/aims-picoglf40w12v230v.html

Much more affordable. I should be able to get $400 if I sell the one I have, leaving a smaller additional investment.


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## HuntingHawk

CrackPot, the 4,000watt inverter is suppose to have up to a 12,000watt surge for up to 30 seconds.


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## CrackPot

I saw that - NICE! I just want to make sure I have all the power I need. I didn't see a smaller one that had the split phase.

Anyway, I ordered one! 3-day shipping for $15. I should have it installed and tested by next weekend - I'll post an update then. I'll also post some photos of the cutover switch, wiring and test results.

I'm hoping that it'll help someone else who's looking to accomplish the same goals.


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## CrackPot

Now I need to install the cutover switch and wiring so I'm ready for when it arrives.

Next I'll focus on the furnace. I have a TED 5000-G so I'll see if I can measure the power required to run that on average.

Fridge, water & heat - my minimum requirements.


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## HuntingHawk

I have a 2hp J-pump that draws 11amps but that 4,000watt should work fine for me.

CrackPot, are you planning a solar system to charge batteries for your inverter to draw off of? At $1,000 for the inverter I figure $2,000-2.5000 for a complete system.


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## CrackPot

Actually, the solar is already in place, I just need more batteries.

Quick run-down:
(6) 140-watt panels @ $179 each = $1,074
Midnite Solar Classic 150 Charge Controller: $500
(8) #29DC batteries: $800
Go Power GP-3000-12 3000 watt pure sine wave 115v inverter: $1,000
Aims 230v inverter (discussed here in this thread): $950
Cable, connectors, wire & misc. maybe another $500

All together about $4,800 - but it gives me 3000 watts of power per day. The panels are putting out more power than the batteries need so I can easily add another 4 batteries an push that to 4,500 watts a day.

A bit expensive, but I did it in stages over the course of the year. It does give me peace of mind knowing that the next time we're out of power for 19 days, like Hurricane Sandy in 2012, we'll have heat, water, refrigeration and can charge our electronics. We also have the generator, but the solar is there so we don't have to run it much - opsec. Running generators invite nare-do-wells to come and take them.


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## HuntingHawk

How many watts goes to your batteries daily means nothing. Its how many amphours (AH) to the batteries daily that counts. Batteries are rated in AH.


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## CrackPot

>> How many watts goes to your batteries daily means nothing.

I disagree. Ohm's law shows amps, watts & volts are directly related. Yes, batteries are rated in Ah, that is how much energy they can store. Some store more, some store less - as long as they are all rating in Ah then you're comparing apples to apples.

However, in my experience generating with solar, the watts I generate, store, then recall from a battery to power equipment rated in watts is related. It's not a 1:1 conversion though - there's overhead in the charge controller, the inverter and in the battery itself.

I know, from actual testing on my system, that I can generate 3,000 watts, store that in a battery bank, then (using an inverter) power a piece of equipment for about 2,700 watts. Once the batteries are drawn down, another 3,000 watts generated refills the batteries and they go into float mode again - so watts does mean something. it means that I have 2,700 watts available to burn in my battery bank on whatever equipment I want to power - and that equipment is rated and measured in watts. Whether I use 1,000 watts to power a fridge or 1,000 watts to power a furnace - it's the same expenditure. The fact that I have to generate/store 1,100 watts to create that 1,000 watts I can use makes them related.

I also realize that a different charge controller, battery design/technology and different inverter all affect that - but since I tested mine, I *know* how mine perform, and how that is related to watts in and watts out.


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## HuntingHawk

So what is the total watts draw from each of your batteries?

I have my controller set to amps. Shows how many amps from the panels. Push a button & can see how many AH to the batteries since last reset.

Even within an hour's time output of the solar panels will not be consistent. High & low clouds will change the output of the panels & so will the change in the sun's angle to the panels.

The one thing you are missing in your use of just using Ohm's law is time.


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## CrackPot

Oh, you're right there! This morning it was bright and sunny, I was getting 700 watts off the panels - now, the clouds have come in and I'm getting 120 watts. For me, it's the total day's output that matters - if I don't generate enough, then I don't have enough in the batteries. I have a manual cutover switch on each circuit so I can switch back to grid at any time and give the batteries a chance to fully recharge. If it's cloudy for a couple of days I have to go back to grid and wait. More batteries will lessen that need, but I can only afford 1 or 2 batteries a month.

In a SHTF, grid-down scenario I won't have that luxury so then it's CONSERVE (shut off everything except what's needed and pray for sun).

Anyway, back to your question... I get about 375 watts per battery before the voltage drops to 10.5v where the inverter alarms and eventually shuts down (that's 31amps at 12v). With the 8 batteries, I can suck 3,000 watts from the fully-charged bank before I get to 10.6 volts. I don't like to run them low at all, it will damage them so I try to keep it above 11.3 volts. I've only been running my fridge on the bank recently, 1,800 watts a day and it rarely gets below 11.6 unless it's been cloudy for a couple of days in a row.

BTW, the batteries I have are the EverStart Group Size 29DC Marine Battery from WallyWorld ($99 each). Not my best choice, I know. But I never seem to be able to save up enough for some nice Rolls/Surrette.


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## CrackPot

BTW, back to the well pump question too... I installed my TED 5000-G on the well pump circuits today. They measured peak draw at 0.706kW (706 watts) when it refilled the surge tank, so the spin-up is not bad on this pump as compared to others!

I'll leave the TED on during the week to get a feel for the number of watts it would average on a daily basis.


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## HuntingHawk

Just remember not to mix old & new batteries. They shouldn't be more then a year apart.

My 520 watt solar system for my storm system I have three of the 29D batteries. Just have to top them off once a month.


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## CrackPot

LOL, that's on my list for tonight! (topping them off). Yeah, I watch the MM/YY stickers on top of the batteries and get the best ones. All 8 were manufactured in the last 5 months.

BTW, I think I owe you an apology for not being clear in my earlier posts - when I'm talking about 3,000 watts generation and 1,800 watts consumption, I meant "watt-hours". You're right, time is as important as wattage. 1000 watts for 3 hours or 500 watts for 6 hours (same thing) - I was converting "watts" to "watt-hours" in my head, but not in my posts - sorry if I created some confusion... I'll be more careful (if I can, I'm gettin' old) layful:


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## HuntingHawk

Big difference between watts & WH. I use the AH because of the battery ratings. I'm not sure my controller does WH but it does do AH to the batteries.


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## 8301

The more I consider expanding my system the more I want to increase from a 12v to a 24 or 48v battery bank to keep things efficient. I just don't want to pay for a good 48v inverter.


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## 8301

HuntingHawk said:


> Big difference between watts & WH. I use the AH because of the battery ratings. I'm not sure my controller does WH but it does do AH to the batteries.


I suspect Hawk is using the correct battery measurement method.


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## HuntingHawk

Only true advantage of a 48V system is when you have to run the DC voltage a long distance. Can use smaller gauge wiring over the distance versus 12VDC. 12 & 24V systems are more common so parts are cheaper.


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## SOCOM42

how about a rotary inverter? run direct from the batteries.


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## HuntingHawk

I don't see the advantage of this with well pump use.


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## 8301

HuntingHawk said:


> Only true advantage of a 48V system is when you have to run the DC voltage a long distance. Can use smaller gauge wiring over the distance versus 12VDC. 12 & 24V systems are more common so parts are cheaper.


My TriStar 45a MPPT charge controller is about maxed out at 12v with 490 watts of panels which I want to increase. Thus the primary major reason I want to go to 24v or 48v for the battery bank.


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## HuntingHawk

FoolAml, with 480 watts of panels you should only do a maximum of about 30amps.


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## PaulS

When speaking of the watts being used refer to it as Watt Hours or it really means nothing.

Drawing 300 amps for two seconds is a 3600 watt draw but it is only 2 watt hours.
1700 watt usage over a 12 hour day is only 141watt hours for 12 hours the same 1700 watt usage over a 10 hour day is 170 watt hours for 10 hours and if it was used over a 16 hour day is only 106 watt hours for the period.
Watts are used to define the power consumed or added. Amps defines the rate of use - the speed of consumption or charge. If we knew what your system voltage was we could divide the watts by the volts and get the amps and at least that would say a bit more about your usage but to be of value we would still need to know the amount of time you are drawing the amps.

when you say that you use 1700 watts I can't be sure whether you are using a lot of amps (say a 5 HP motor) for a short time or a few lights. (17 100 watt bulbs would use 1700 watts - if you ran them for an hour you would have used 1700 watt hours of power. If you used then for 30 minutes you would only used 850 watt hours but at a 1700 watt level.


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## 8301

HuntingHawk said:


> FoolAml, with 480 watts of panels you should only do a maximum of about 30amps.


The TriStar 45amp book shows a max of 38 rated panel amps to allow for cloud effect. Thus far I've never seen over 41.5 amps so I feel ok with my current setup but I realize I can't expand my panels without another controller or increasing my battery bank voltage. Also the controller has overvoltage safety and my panel max voltage is only 123v which the controller can easily handle with it's 150v rating.

Consider that with my desire for increasing my panels I'm also considering a small (less than 300 watt) wind turbine I need to piggy-back a 2nd controller along with an increased voltage for the battery bank. While I live in a high zone 1 wind area since I'm in a hill top with few close trees to the turbine site I'm seeing some wind potential. My wind chimes most of the day here saying "try a little wind power". Put a 30' tower up 180' from the battery bank/controller (3 phase wiring) and 10-40 watts all day long (150+ watts in a storm) with a average 3-8 mph breeze at ground level (6' off the ground). Since the wind direction changes rapidly I'm considering a VAHT to minimize maintence with the shifting winds. Less efficient but better with rapidly changing wind directions.

Your thoughts???


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## HuntingHawk

A basic issue with wind turbines is the maintenance. So its either climb the tower to do maintenance or be able to lower the tower. Most turbines seem to require 9mph wind to start the turning.

My controller will charge my battery bank to 12.8VDC.


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## 8301

The ability to lower the tower is why I'm sticking to a 30' tower if and when I ever add a turbine. To get into really clear air I'd need a 50' tower but those are more expensive and really tough to lower. I've rebuilt the PMAs before so the maintence shouldn't be too big a deal for a smaller turbine like a 4' VAHT or a 5' five blade setup.


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