# Carbine Shopping



## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Went to several gun stores today wanting to compare the Hi-Point and KelTec Carbines in .40; ended up discussing both carbines with several people who had shot them. To me a carbine needs to be very lightweight, super easy to carry, and be able to put a lot of defensive rounds on target at 100 yds without much thought or effort. It's not an offensive weapon, instead it needs to be so easy to carry and shoot that you're willing to carry it and work around the place for months in anticipation of that possible unexpected attack and since I live in an area with lots of open fields a pistol may not be the best choice.. If it's too much trouble to carry then you're not going to be carrying it when you suddenly need it. It needs to hold a fair number of rounds since carrying a bunch of clips kind of defeats the easy and lightweight carry requirement and can be bumped while working the property. It also needs to have a lot of fun factor so I just want to grab it an blow off a magazine occasionally.

The KelTec sub2000 weighs a sultry 4.0 lbs and at $300 looks great and folds into a tiny package but shoulders terribly, you have to hold the butt against the top front edge of your shoulder to line up the sights. You'd need a 3-4" riser on a scope mount to get the sight high enough to properly shoulder and who puts a scope on a .40 carbine? Maybe a RedDot but you'd still need that super high riser. The people who had shot them said they loved it and with the minimum kick holding it on the top front edge of their shoulder wasn't a problem in their opinion. There are several magazine options for this carbine which was nice but I had to pass even if it was super light weight and relatively inexpensive (at least compared to an M-1 Carbine) I wasn't interested in a rifle that I consciously had to think about to shoulder properly. I can't begin to explain how awkward the Kel-Tec is to shoulder properly.

The Hi-Point at $234 (price was really nice) (6 1/2 lbs but feels heavier) is fairly clunky and very heavy feeling for daily carry (or carrying while walking out of a doomed city), a little out of balance for me and felt long for a carbine which combined with the 10 rd mag kinda defeats the purpose for a carbine in my opinion. Trigger was a tad heavy but acceptable. The fact that you are limited to 10 rd mags really lowers the "fun factor" in my opinion not to mention the self defense ability for the weapon. Bottom line the rifle just didn't feel good in my hands and with only 10 shots I just didn't want it even at that low price.

One shop had a Beretta CX4 Storm (5 1/2 lbs but feels lighter because it is so well balenced) for $479 in 45ACP so I put it to my shoulder. I just loved the way it felt both in my hands and against the shoulder. Takes up to 30 rnd pistol mags (standard mag is 14 shots in .40,,,, 17 shots in 9mm) The trigger is poor and heavy but later research shows putting in a new trigger and hammer assembly takes 15 minutes. The sights were decent but with the built in top rail I'd probably mount my tiny 1 oz Burris RedDot for my poor eyes. Included spacers allows the stock length to be adjusted. Not as "cool" as the KelTec but pointed naturally 100 times better for me. 

I ran around the all 3 shops again and no one could order the Beretta in .40 from their suppliers. The gun shops suggested that they may have stopped making the CX4 in .40. I shopped around online, seems everyone wants about $740 for the CX4 but finally found one in .40 for $490 online. Maybe I spent more than I had planned but the rifle just feels natural in my hands so I ordered it. I'll post a review after it comes in next week. 

Something I learned in my research. With the exception of the carbine listing below these are just average energy and speed levels. The longer carbine barrel combined with Buffalo Bore (very strong loadings) ammo makes for a 150 yd coyote stopper and online review tests of this combination shows 2 moa accuracy. 

.22 long rifle in a rifle ............................104 ft/lbs energy.........1200 fps (listed for comparison)
9mm pistol somewhere around .................380 ft/lbs energy.........1200 fps
.40 S&W pistol average around .................485 ft/lbs energy.........1150 fps
.40 S&W Buffalo Bore 155 gn in a 16" barrel....690 ft/lbs energy.....1720 fps ( I found an online test with this combination)
.45 ACP pistol average around ..................414 ft/lbs energy..........900 fps
M1 Carbine .............................................970 ft/lbs energy.........1990 fps
.223 rifle is around....................................1280 ft/lbs energy.......3240 fps 
6.8 rifle is around .....................................1550 ft/lbs energy........2550 fps

We all know that a .22 long with about 100 ft/lbs energy is capable of killing a human but it's pretty marginal. 1000 ft/lbs energy at the muzzle of the rifle is required in some states to hunt deer (kind of man sized) for a "humane kill". Energy will drop as the bullet slows with distance although heavier bullets hold their energy better than lighter bullets. I've seen deer taken at 40 yards with a .22 long rifle but using a head shot.


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## stillacitizen2 (Jan 30, 2015)

I've owned both the Kel-Tec (.40) and the Hi-point (4595 TS). In my opinion, the Kel-Tec was a terrible shooter. As you said, it is awkward to shoulder. I found it to be terribly balanced and it had ridiculous muzzle flip making it really hard to get a fast, accurate follow up shot. The Hi-Point was a nice shooter and while a bit heavy, it was solid and reliable. But I completely agree, the low capacity mags are definitely a con to an otherwise great, and inexpensive, carbine.


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## TxBorderCop (Nov 19, 2012)

CX4 is a great choice. I have never been fond of Hi Point or Kel Tec. I knew some guys who bought that SU-16 and used them in a carbine class. Some didn't make it to the end of day one. None made it to the end of the three day class. My trusty 6920 made it all three days, my buddies Stag made it all three days.

One guy did have a Del-Ton - and it made all three days. All of us were shooting surplus mil spec m855. Wolf Ammo wasn't allowed on the range. No steel cased stuff was.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Why are you wasting time with a pistol caliber carbine?? Just pick up a cheap $500 lite weight carbon AR 556. At least you will have something to actually defend yourself with. Cause in an area with open fields you will want something that shoots more than 100 yards and will be effective. 

I assume you really don't plan on letting threats get within a 100 yards on purpose. Before you can engage. Sorry but IMO your not thinking clearly.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

30 Carbine with 110 gr JSP's, slung over shoulder is usable while digging. It's only a 13+1 shot though when loaded correctly


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

pistol caliber carbines I would think are generally reserved for entry work, CQB and other close up stuff. I think you would be woefully disappointed in one for a 100 yard weapon. I have shot H&K MP5s and UMPs at 50 yards and they were just OK at that distance and they were the real high dollar deal. I transitioned to a rifle caliber for 100 and beyond.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Chipper said:


> Why are you wasting time with a pistol caliber carbine?? Just pick up a cheap $500 lite weight carbon AR 556. At least you will have something to actually defend yourself with. Cause in an area with open fields you will want something that shoots more than 100 yards and will be effective.
> 
> I assume you really don't plan on letting threats get within a 100 yards on purpose. Before you can engage. Sorry but IMO your not thinking clearly.


I already have the long range stuff covered but 2 of the ladies in my "group" currently don't want to own a gun and would probably stay close to the house anyway. With their limited shooting skills (they've shot some with me over the years) they are much more comfortable with smaller carbines. Personally I can justify it because having a coyote popper handy down at the shop (80 yds from my house) is always useful where I'm at and I already keep a good supply of .40 around.

Sometimes I just don't want to use a full power rifle, I've got neighbors with kids a few hundred yards away across the fields and their houses are hard to see through the thin layer of trees. Yes, a .40 can certainly travel that far but most of the energy would be gone at 250 yards, especially if it had already traveled through a target. While I would never shoot towards their homes the kids could be running unseen through the trees 250 yards away.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

AquaHull said:


> 30 Carbine with 110 gr JSP's, slung over shoulder is usable while digging. It's only a 13+1 shot though when loaded correctly


I've got a beautiful restored 1953 M1 Carbine but for sentimental reasons I prefer not to use it as a "kick-around" gun. I pull it out a few times a year and put it through it's paces and think about my father. Oil it and gently put it back.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

csi-tech said:


> pistol caliber carbines I would think are generally reserved for entry work, CQB and other close up stuff. I think you would be woefully disappointed in one for a 100 yard weapon. I have shot H&K MP5s and UMPs at 50 yards and they were just OK at that distance and they were the real high dollar deal. I transitioned to a rifle caliber for 100 and beyond.


A buddy and I were talking about weapons and hunting during break, last night. He, too, suggested that my .45 carbine would be good for 100 yards, and even suggested I take it to the hunting club area for hunting deer in the brush. I could only blink at him. :disillusionment:

Everything in its place.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

From what I could find online 9mm hollow points don't hold up well when hitting at the higher speeds a carbine gives them. All of the .40 bullets tested held up well on the wet newspaper target. They didn't test 45ACP.

I considered getting a .45ACP carbine instead but the higher chamber pressures the .40 produces works better and produces less drop at 100 yds than a .45 out of the longer barrel. Still at 230 grns a .45 gives one hell of a whomp and the .45 will hit the target easily at 100 yds. 

Long ago I used to shoot my .45 1911 at targets on my 100 yd range which was across a large pond. You could actually see the 230 gn bullet drop some as it traveled across the water but I was hitting the large target if I held high. A carbine with a 180 gn hot load would shoot much flatter.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Pistol/revolver caliber carbines have their place in the scheme of things. They are typically light, compact, fast handling firearms that possess a fair degree of accuracy within the limits of their intended use. There is a lot to like, which may explain the popularity of carbines.

Recoil sensitive people can appreciate the light recoil of pistol/revolver carbines as will most shooters looking for a pleasant and relaxing day of shooting. While I may not be a huge fan of the forty, I can see where people would like it. Bottom line, congrats on getting a CX4.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

I've always favored the M1 carbine for a recoil sensitive shooter. That said I look at it pretty much the same way the army viewed it in WW2, as a replacement for a pistol in second line use. In that role it is excellent. It's is light, handy, magazine capacity is comparable to a handgun, 30 round magazines are available. I put one together for the wife a while back, it was a Plainfield commercial gun that I found to be really reliable. Put it in a reproduction folder and mounted a micro red dot on a ultimak rail. It could put a 110 grain pill wherever I put the dot out to 150m. That being said it's still not ment to replace a rifle. It replaces a pistol which is more difficult to shoot accurately if you don't practice while remaining light and handy. Most pistol caliber carbine would have a hard time beating that. However if we are only talking about pistol caliber carbines then a lever gun in 357 mag is just plain handy. They are light, and 357 mag can be loaded to really take advantage of the extra barrel length.

Note: I wouldn't change up a military surplus M1 carbine, only a quality commercial reproduction.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Long Range Beretta CX4 Storm 9mm Carbine:


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## Sarkus (Sep 11, 2014)

If you can find a Sub2000 for $300 I'd go for it because that is well below what the market seems to indicate based on Gunbroker. They rarely sell for less than $450 there, and those are the more common varieties. The 9mm Glock versions are over $500. The other thing to consider about the Sub2000 is that KelTec just announced an upgrade to the design that will start shipping later this year, and they claim it will simplify their production in the process so there should be more of them around.

I've handled the HiPoints and my only complaints are a) they seem heavy and bulky for a pistol caliber gun and b) mag options are pretty limited - factory only makes 10 round mags and the pro mag offering has a mixed reputation.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

GeorgiaGunStore.com has several sub2000s for $300. I'm just not interested in one with the way they sit on the shoulder. I found that all 3 local gun stores (Gainesville GA) have pricing on all of these carbine models about 25-30% less than what I was generally finding online.


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

For years I've been wanting a Marlin camp carbine in 45 acp. Only problem with that is that there rare and U get sticker shock at the price. It's my dream to get one.


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

Ruger made one in 9mm and .40 that used their pistol magazines, but i believe they stopped making them.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

From the muzzle energy specs you provided, looks like the 30 cal m1 wins. Just when I feel the need ditch the m1 you guys got me rethinking again. I have a very early universal carbine with GI parts. Shoots like a dream, but not really looking to stock more ammo of a different caliber. I'm torn about what to do!!?? Darn handy little rifles!


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

You would be better served with a 223. Longer range, better numbers, availability of ammunition.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Chipper said:


> Why are you wasting time with a pistol caliber carbine?? Just pick up a cheap $500 lite weight carbon AR 556. At least you will have something to actually defend yourself with. Cause in an area with open fields you will want something that shoots more than 100 yards and will be effective.
> 
> I assume you really don't plan on letting threats get within a 100 yards on purpose. Before you can engage. Sorry but IMO your not thinking clearly.


I am wondering the same thing. 223 ammo is a third less expensive than 40 or 45 acp as well.

For fun what. Ever duty serious talk about energy distance etc. When you can have a decent ar.

Foolishness.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

When I bought my carbine, I guess I thought of the old WW2 and the Thompson's "tommy gun", I thought of close in, door to door type fighting somewhere from 30 to 60 yards type of thing. I felt there, for me, needed to be a bridge between a pistol and a long rifle. I went with the CX4 in the 9mm. I know in a bind, it can put lead out there 100 plus yards, but that is not what I bought it for.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

1skrewsloose said:


> From the muzzle energy specs you provided, looks like the 30 cal m1 wins. Just when I feel the need ditch the m1 you guys got me rethinking again. I have a very early universal carbine with GI parts. Shoots like a dream, but not really looking to stock more ammo of a different caliber. I'm torn about what to do!!?? Darn handy little rifles!


Handy and with modern bullets that expand are great little rifles bumping 1000 ft/lbs energy. I love mine and it drops a coyote just fine at 100 yds. But the accuracy is somewhere around 4 moa for mine and as I mentioned in an earlier post I prefer to baby it for sentimental reasons, thus no tapping for a RedDot sight for my older eyes and low light conditions and no storing it in the shop for handy access. The ladies and several friends love the M1 Carbine but at $750 for a new one it's pricy and at 6 1/2 lbs a bit heavy and long for everyday carry.

In my situation a modern carbine is a better choice for a kick-around gun to keep at the shop and in a SHTF situation for the ladies in the house.

And while I'm not looking for a scrap here but for all you .223 fans here sometimes a .223 is just too long ranged for a defensive situation. Not to mention that the .223 was designed for wounding the enemy, not killing fast. Kill the guy and his friends keep attacking,,, wound the guy and 2 of his friends have to carry him off the battlefield removing 3 people with one shot from the battle.

Yes, like all bullets the bullet can tumble but as I recall in the early '70s we (NATO?) decided that a tumbling bullet was too deadly so to the best of my knowledge bullets designed to tumble are no longer used by the military. That may have changed since Afghanistan, not something I really follow. That's why I play with a 6.8 hollow point designed to expand and remember that not all hollow points are designed to expand. Hornedy BTHP hollow points are designed not to expand; something I learned after loosing 2 deer before reading up on them.

You've got to ask yourself,,, are you really looking to conquer new lands or just defend your place? I'd even suggest that for those of us who don't have to hump a lifetime worth of ammo our our backs (looking to save weight) the .223 may not be the best round to defend your property if you intend to quickly stop a charging attacker.

.223 is inexpensive allowing lots of practice for the $ but with it you may need that extra practice for great shot placement in a panic situation. Has everyone in your group had a lot of recent practice?


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

Your right about the cost of a new carbine being more then I want to pay. If I was looking to do it again I'd be looking for something like a used early national ordnance, Plainfield, or universal commercial carbines. These could be had for closer to $500.

Using an ultimak requires no drilling or tapping, it clamps to the barrel. The only invasive work you have to do is inlet some of the inside of the stock. Once again I would not do this to a USGI gun.

6 1/2 lbs is light enough for a woman to tote around camp/house but heavy enough to keep recoil manageable. The folder keeps it compact. Don't think of it as a replacement for a rifle but rather a replacement for a pistol where concealment isn't an issue.

4MOA is more accurate then most shooters could maintain off hand. 

Comparing 223 and 30carbine 223 wins, but comparing 30 carbine with any pistol caliber out of a carbine length barrel 30 carbine wins. Basically the M1 carbine works well when it replaces a pistol in a defensive role in the hands of a recoil sensitive shooter when concealment is not a priority. It's handy and capable of dispatching both 4 and 2 leg critters out to 100~150m. It's something that the wife is comfortable grabbing if she heard a bump in the night. It is not a good replacement for a modern fighting rifle.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I fully agree although I didn't realize they could be had for $500. A buddy who has shot mine several times loves the M1 Carbine and keeps looking for one and keeps telling me how expensive they are. Guess he isn't looking in the right places.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

All bullets work better in bunches, and under duress you tend to miss a lot. Inside of 300m I'll take a intermediate cartridge over a full power cartridge every time. 223/5.56 is an excellent choice for a fighting rifle.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

We need to get Salty Pepper over here to interpret this data. What are they alleging?


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm not sure who the they are your talking about but just to clarify, I'll lay out my argument for the usefulness of light carbines chambered in handgun calibers.

First remember that all firearms are tools like hammers, and like hammers there are many different types with different purposes. Just as no one hammer can do it all, neither can a single firearm/caliber fill all roles.

The purpose of a handgun is personal defense in close proximity. The truth is handguns suck at killing. Short cases and barrels along with the limitations of the operating systems prevent these firearms from causing the types of incapacitating wounds rifles cause. They are hard to be accurate with. Short sight radius, one point of contact and triggers that are often heavier then the gun itself conspire to render the relative mechanical accuracy all but worthless under duress without quality training and dedicated practice. In fact the only thing good about the dang things is you can carry them pretty much everywhere (local laws permitting) without much inconvenience. Basically they suck at killing but if your willing to carry everywhere then it is always there when you need it.

Then there are full power cartridges such as the 7.62X51/308, 7.62X54R, 30.06, and 8mm. These have an awesome ability to create incapacitating wounds. Any if these rounds are capable of taking just about any game in north American. But that power comes at a cost. They are heavy and the rifles that shoot then are heavy too. If it's a semiautomatic rifle the magazines are going to weight a lot. Also society tends to frown when you carry your M1A into the groceries even if you did stuff it in your trench coat.

The need for a weapon that fills the middle ground has been apparent since self loading firearms appeared on the battle field. This role has been filled with submachine guns, the M1 carbine and more recently in modern times the pistol caliber carbine. For the sake of this argument let's disregard submachine guns for two reasons; first they are offensive in nature, and second limited availability, cost and tax stamp put then outside the reasonable range of the general public. Instead let's focus on the usefulness of the pistol caliber carbine. Instead of thinking if it as a rifle think of it as an oversized pistol. It's uses should be defensive in nature. It's ability to incapacitate is still limited by the dimensions of the cartridge but the longer barrel along with the higher velocities it offers make it an improvement over the handgun. At the same time in a defensive setting the limited power of the handgun cartridge might be an advantage in limiting collateral damage. For example at my house it's about 150m before what is behind the target starts to become an issue, at that range the pistol cartridge is quickly running out of steam while a rifle round is still moving with a purpose. A carbine also has the added advantage of 4 points of contact, longer sight radius and a trigger much closer to the weight of the rifle. All this means the pistol caliber carbine has a significant advantage over the handgun when it comes to putting rounds on target. In fact when you compare the two the only advantage the pistol has is it's portability. In this role a pistol caliber carbine is a very viable tool.

Now several people have said well just get an ar15. The ar15 is a fighting rifle, it's offensive in nature. It is accurate, has lots of configurations, high magazine capacity, has all the advantages of being a rifle while remaining light. In fact it's better then a pistol caliber carbine in every conceivable way except maybe over penetration (that's a big maybe).

So why get a pistol caliber carbine at all? Well if you need a defensive weapon that is easier to shoot than a pistol but is manageable and has a reduced risk of over penetration then the pistol caliber carbine might be for you. If you just want one the that's reason enough.


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## SAR-1L (Mar 13, 2013)

What appeals to me about a pistol carbine beside what E.H. just pointed out is that you can carry one type of ammunition rather than two.
Living in a city environment most of my engagements are going to be close quarter, or closer. If I am smart, I will avoid allowing myself to
be at target for battle rifles designed for 700 yards where someone can really reach out and touch you. ( easier said than done honestly ).
You are relying a lot on engaging your enemy first at short range, which means trying to control a lot of variables with some outstanding luck
consistently.

On the other hand, with what I know about ballistics, I would like a .223 AR over 9mm for the simple fact that my opponent could slip up
and take cover behind what is actually concealment, I drill the wall and drop a body.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

In CQB and room clearing I will take the H&K UMP .45 every time. Subguns aren't the best option for an all around gun. If I was told I could only carry one long gun in a survival situation there is little doubt. I would grab the Mossberg 500 with extended magazine tube, surefire fore end with 6 shot, 4 shot, 00 Buck and slugs. I am safe within 100 yards, can deer hunt, turkey hunt, quail hunt, pheasant hunt, squirrel hunt, crack engine blocks, blow holes into 55 gallon burn drums you name it and you are pretty well covered. But I love pistol caliber carbines, they are just sort of a niche firearm in my mind.


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

Where are you finding Beretta CXs for $450-490? I'd pay that in a heart beat. It's closer to $800 in my neck of the woods.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

FoolAmI said:


> From what I could find online 9mm hollow points don't hold up well when hitting at the higher speeds a carbine gives them. 124 grJacketed Soft Points All of the .40 bullets tested held up well on the wet newspaper target. They didn't test 45ACP.
> 
> I considered getting a .45ACP carbine instead but the higher chamber pressures the .40 produces works better and produces less drop at 100 yds than a .45 out of the longer barrel. Still at 230 grns a .45 gives one hell of a whomp and the .45 will hit the target easily at 100 yds.
> 
> Long ago I used to shoot my .45 1911 at targets on my 100 yd range which was across a large pond. You could actually see the 230 gn bullet drop some as it traveled across the water but I was hitting the large target if I held high. A carbine with a 180 gn hot load would shoot much flatter.


My response in red


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## ARDon (Feb 27, 2015)

I own 2 of the Hi Points in .45acp Their short a bit heavy but accurate out to 75 yards. You can feed these carbines anything from the ranked of cheapie ammo to the best of reloaded, from aluminum cased to brass cased and they will NOT jam. The down fall some say is the magazine capacity, to me that doesn't bother me. My handguns are all chambered in .45acp so I wanted acarbine that will eat thing you feed it w/o the jamming or cycling problems. I like the idea their short, movability is great to quick & fast shouldering. Now I changed a few things on mine.....but that common for I'm a gunsmith. I done a trigger job on my, polished the feed ramp, changed out the sites and spiffy it up some because they are as ugly as ugly can be. I put a continuous rail system from rear to front, front sight is a Troy Industries Folding Battle Sight, the rear is a DPMS A2 sight. I have a Burris Fast Fire II mounted on a off set rail, with a Mag Light Tactical light & a with battle vertical grip. This one shoot good groups @ 75 yards and hasnt failed me in jams, mis fires, or mis feeding. 
Green digital USMC camo Hi Point Carbine has a Millett Red Dot with Dueck Defense Rapid Transition Off Set Sights with Mag Lite Tactical Flash Light, folding tactical vertical grip shoot just as well and my wife uses this one.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

James L said:


> Where are you finding Beretta CXs for $450-490? I'd pay that in a heart beat. It's closer to $800 in my neck of the woods.


Georgia Gun Store , Gainesville GA , Georgia Gun Store, Inc. asking $500 for a Cx4 and had one in stock last month.

Foxhole Guns and Archery also in Gainesville GA,,, said they could order a Cx4 in for $470 (I think that was the price they said, within a few dollars anyway)


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

I don't care for the Keltec and wouldn't really trust the Hi-Point. 
If me, I would keep an eye out for either a Ruger or Marlin pistol caliber semi-auto carbine.
They're no longer made but, that's what I'd go for. 
Understand I agree the prices in these listings are ridiculous, I've seen them at gun shows for about $400 - $500.

Ruger Carbine came in 9mm & 40S&W
Ruger Police Carbine 9mm in Box EXCELLENT : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com

Marlin camp Carbines came in 9mm & 45ACP
0945 Marlin Model 9 Carbine 9mm : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com

But mostly, I am anticipating a quality lever action in 357/38Sp in my future.


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## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

I have 2 of the Kel-Tec SUB 2000's in the chrome model 9MM. I keep one of them teamed up with a Glock 34 and a handful of the Glock extended mags in a backpack
and it is the perfect truck gun combo for me! My KT's have been perfect and even feed the cheap Korean extended mags fine too! KT is coming out with a gen 2 version
of the S2K soon and looking at the shotshow video of it the gen 2 looks pretty good! If you can fine a chrome version I recommend them over the standard finish as the fit
and feel just seem better! Your mileage may vary!






I added a Hogue Handall grip to both my S2K's and that solved the grip issue he talked about in the video.


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

FoolAmI said:


> Georgia Gun Store , Gainesville GA , Georgia Gun Store, Inc. asking $500 for a Cx4 and had one in stock last month.
> 
> Foxhole Guns and Archery also in Gainesville GA,,, said they could order a Cx4 in for $470 (I think that was the price they said, within a few dollars anyway)


Maybe they were used. Both links had them for $750 and up. But I will certainly check back. Thanks for the info.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

James L said:


> Maybe they were used. Both links had them for $750 and up. But I will certainly check back. Thanks for the info.


No, they were new, I shouldered the Cx4 in .45ACP at Georgia Gunstore with a big $500 price tag on it and Foxhole went online with their distributer while I watched. Give them a call if you want one,,, they'll probably ship to your FFL dealer.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Boss Dog,

I like the Marlin camp 45. It took me about 12 years to find one in perfect condition for the right price. I passed up quite a few that were rough, looking for a safe queen. 

I also like the 30 carbine as well, yet they too can be expensive. While ammo for the 30 carbine seems to be readily available, prices can fluctuate quite a bit. 

Revolver cartridge carbines seem to be the most popular. I imagine cowboy action shooting has something to do with that. Myself I like them all. There is something about having a handgun and carbine in the same caliber that says go the range and have fun.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

ARDon, I will give you props for what are by far the best looking Hi Points I have ever seen.


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## ARDon (Feb 27, 2015)

you only can do so much to ugly. LOL thanks 

The Hi Points carbines are under rated by their past history IMO. In all my yrs as a gunsmith & gun re-finisherI never seen a weapon that will eat the most cheap foreign ranked ammo, various case materials (brass, aluminum) various bullet projectile configurations and run flawlessly in feeding, shooting & dispensing of the empty. I've had many pistol carbines in my shop and after all the work done whether performance improvements or aesthetic improvements this has to be the one that is reliabile IMO when it comes to shooting asorted ammo & bullet configurations in a SHFT crisis and I may say accuratelyout to 75 yards. Many will disagree but thats why I bought 2 of them. 

Many weapon systems hate certain ammo, bullet configurations because of feeding, cycling the despensed empty & these same many owners will NOT admit this to their buddies or shooting partners only to their gunsmith looking to find how I or we can fix this problem. I've seen this on forums too, they rather lie about than see reality for what it is. I'm a huge 1911 fan and have several, many of them hate CCI cases. These same 1911's will burn threw Winchesters, Remingtons, & Federal cases like a fat person to all you can eat buffet. Thats is why I like the Hi Point carbines, it spits out what it eats.


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

ARDon said:


> you only can do so much to ugly. LOL thanks
> 
> The Hi Points carbines are under rated by their past history IMO. In all my yrs as a gunsmith & gun re-finisherI never seen a weapon that will eat the most cheap foreign ranked ammo, various case materials (brass, aluminum) various bullet projectile configurations and run flawlessly in feeding, shooting & dispensing of the empty. I've had many pistol carbines in my shop and after all the work done whether performance improvements or aesthetic improvements this has to be the one that is reliabile IMO when it comes to shooting asorted ammo & bullet configurations in a SHFT crisis and I may say accuratelyout to 75 yards. Many will disagree but thats why I bought 2 of them.
> 
> Many weapon systems hate certain ammo, bullet configurations because of feeding, cycling the despensed empty & these same many owners will NOT admit this to their buddies or shooting partners only to their gunsmith looking to find how I or we can fix this problem. I've seen this on forums too, they rather lie about than see reality for what it is. I'm a huge 1911 fan and have several, many of them hate CCI cases. These same 1911's will burn threw Winchesters, Remingtons, & Federal cases like a fat person to all you can eat buffet. Thats is why I like the Hi Point carbines, it spits out what it eats.


Every review I have read saw they are ugly as sin and heavy, but will take a pounding and are are reliable.

For me, I think the drawback is the 10 round mag. Rumors circulate that Hi Point is looking to create a higher capacity mag, but so far nothing I have seen confirms this.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

James L said:


> Every review I have read saw they are ugly as sin and heavy, but will take a pounding and are are reliable.
> 
> For me, I think the drawback is the 10 round mag. Rumors circulate that Hi Point is looking to create a higher capacity mag, but so far nothing I have seen confirms this.


The Hi-Point carbine in 45ACP only holds 8 rounds in the mag


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

I've yet to have a problem with the CCI aluminum cases in my Marlin Camp 45, should I worry? Since that's mostly what run through it, it launches spent cases far and wide and I never do seem to be able to find them all after a shooting session. It makes sense to me to use non reloadable ammo or brass on it's last reloading in the camp, since it launches them out the ejection port and I know I'm going to loose a few.

edit add;
I really like the 10 round chip McCormick magazines for the camp. It's like they were made for it.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

If dealing with 100yds I would opt for other then a handgun caliber. Like a sidefold or underfold AK.


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## swede4198 (Feb 5, 2015)

An alternative pistol caliber carbine is the Just Right Carbine. It is very similar to an AR-15 in configuration and function. They come in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. They will take any 1911, Glock or M&P magazines so it would be compatible to your hand gun. You can also change between the calibers and magazines with change kits.


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## stillacitizen2 (Jan 30, 2015)

Those "Just Right Carbines are kind of spendy, especially for a pistol caliber carbine. Ouch! The cheapest one was just shy of $700 not including shipping and transfer fees...


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

Any thoughts to the Beretta Cx4? I'm looking at getting one in a .40 cal.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Carbines that fire pistol ammo are stil just a pistol. As long as you keep that in mind then it can be a lot of fun. If you expect to get rifle performance out of it then you are in for a disappointment.


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

PaulS said:


> Carbines that fire pistol ammo are stil just a pistol. As long as you keep that in mind then it can be a lot of fun. If you expect to get rifle performance out of it then you are in for a disappointment.


Oh no. I know exactly what I am looking for. I already have a solid, well build AR. I'm specifically looking for a pistol caliber carbine. Hearing mixed reviews on the Beretta CX4 Storm.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

James L said:


> Every review I have read saw they are ugly as sin and heavy, but will take a pounding and are are reliable.
> 
> For me, I think the drawback is the 10 round mag. Rumors circulate that Hi Point is looking to create a higher capacity mag, but so far nothing I have seen confirms this.


Nine rounds, actually.

Want to know how fast I can swap mags with my Hi-Point? :armata_PDT_12:

I'll buy higher capacity mags if they come out with them, but the nine round mags are not a show-stopper to me.

Maybe the carbine is heavy, I don't know. It doesn't bother me at all. I know people complain about how heavy this rifle is and that rifle is, but what are they doing? Holding the rifle parallel to the ground, arms straight out in front of them? Sure, it'd be uncomfortable in that scenario, but not when shooting, holding it at ready or when slung.

I read the reviews of all the carbines chambered for pistol ammunition, and none met the reliability factor my little Hi-Point did. Even the ones that would have cost me a lot more, leaving less to spend on ammo.

The only down side to the weapon is the smile factor. If you don't like grinning like an idiot when blasting lead down range, steer clear of the Hi-Point. It's hard not to smile like a court jester when shooting it!


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

Denton said:


> Nine rounds, actually.
> 
> Want to know how fast I can swap mags with my Hi-Point? :armata_PDT_12:
> 
> ...


Hi-points website said it was a 10 round mag for the .40 cal. The .45 has a 9...but I'm looking for a .40 cal.

Rumors say that Hi Point is looking at making high capacity mags. If so, I'd certainly be more interested. But at the moment I'm looking at JR carbines....because they take Glock mags.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

James L said:


> Hi-points website said it was a 10 round mag for the .40 cal. The .45 has a 9...but I'm looking for a .40 cal.
> 
> Rumors say that Hi Point is looking at making high capacity mags. If so, I'd certainly be more interested. But at the moment I'm looking at JR carbines....because they take Glock mags.


Excellent! Get one of those puppies and tell us what you think! :eagerness:


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## shootbrownelk (Jul 9, 2014)

James m said:


> Ruger made one in 9mm and .40 that used their pistol magazines, but i believe they stopped making them.


 Ruger also made a nice little carbine in .44 magnum called the "Deerfield?" That was pre-mini 14 days. A friend of mine had one, and never failed to take his deer with it. Sweet little gun. Ruger needs to make another in .44 mag. .454 Casull & .45 Colt.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

k, call me old fashioned, but I really like the .30 Cal M1 Carbine. Light weight, cheap ammo. I can keep the rounds in the 10 out 150 yards and knock the stuffings out of a target to 200+. Easy to reload, even for beginners. I stocked up on the ammo when it was very inexpensive.
Stay away from Universal unless you've done the research to know exactly what your buying or go to Auto-ordinance.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

The hi-point once took best of show in Gun Tests magazine. Ugly as sin, bt for the bux they thought it was worthwile.

The Beretta Storm is a POS with a plastic trigger. In 45 there are no hi-cap mags, and they charge you extra for the accessory rails that shoulda been moulded in in the first place.

A friend of mine got the Keltec (that carbine that folds in half?) in 40 cal and he really likes it. I forget which mags it uses (Glock?) but there was a wide variety of capacities to choose from (unlike that damned Beretta.)

Have you considered a levergun?


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

Ralph Rotten said:


> The hi-point once took best of show in Gun Tests magazine. Ugly as sin, bt for the bux they thought it was worthwile.
> 
> The Beretta Storm is a POS with a plastic trigger. In 45 there are no hi-cap mags, and they charge you extra for the accessory rails that shoulda been moulded in in the first place.
> 
> ...


I have thought about a .357 lever action.....but I have a ton of .40 cal ammo. In a perfect world I would get both. But sadly, I have this terrible thing called a budget which hinders that.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

357 carbnes are miniscule little things that weigh nothing at all, but will take deer and small game. However, avoid the Puma which is reported to have a rifling twist of 1 in 16 or some other nonsensical thing. I think Remington makes the other popular 357 carbine. They are quiet to shoot too.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

paraquack said:


> k, call me old fashioned, but I really like the .30 Cal M1 Carbine. Light weight, cheap ammo. I can keep the rounds in the 10 out 150 yards and knock the stuffings out of a target to 200+. Easy to reload, even for beginners. I stocked up on the ammo when it was very inexpensive.
> Stay away from Universal unless you've done the research to know exactly what your buying or go to Auto-ordinance.


I effed up 75 cases by overbelling,the plated RN were set to too much OAL...........

Well effed up cases for an effed up dual recoil rod UniEffing versal


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

paraquack said:


> k, call me old fashioned, but I really like the .30 Cal M1 Carbine. Light weight, cheap ammo. I can keep the rounds in the 10 out 150 yards and knock the stuffings out of a target to 200+. Easy to reload, even for beginners. I stocked up on the ammo when it was very inexpensive.
> Stay away from Universal unless you've done the research to know exactly what your buying or go to Auto-ordinance.


I dunno about that M1 Carbine. Dad tells a funny story about that weapon.

Back in Korea the commies were making one of their massed assaults up a hill he was defending. At the time he was EOD so he carried the carbine. He sees this one guy and shoots him in the chest. He even sees the guy's parka puff up from the impact. Few minutes later that same commie is up and charging again. So he shoots the guy again, sees him go down.
Well, the guy got up a third time, seemingly unhurt. Dad threw down that miserable little rat gun, grabbed a Garand, and plugged that commie (who rolled back down that hill head over feet.) After that he carried the Garand.

The M1 is fun to shoot, but expensive and of limited downrange potential.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Of Course the 30/06 has more power than the 30carbine,but
Muzzle Energy and Terminal Ballistics, .357 & .30 Carbine - THR


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)




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