# US Tariffs? For or Against?



## Slippy

I am 100% for Tariffs against Foreign Countries attempting to bring Goods into the US. The Globalists that infiltrated the US Federal Government are guilty of killing manufacturing in the US. 

Are you For or Against Tariffs?


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## Camel923

FOR! Why export our industry and impoverish our own people? Good trade deals or take a freaking hike. If it makes manufacturing come here 200 percent tariffs.


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## Kauboy

Tariffs end up being a zero sum game.
We charge them more, their businesses charge customers more, we are buying from them(hence the trade), so we end up paying the difference.
In retaliation, they charge us more, our businesses charge customers more, they are buying from us(hence the trade), so they end up paying the difference.

So, how are tariffs effectual?
The institution of them, and the ensuing trade war that follows, will strain all parties. As Trump is fully aware, in negotiation, "something's gotta give". He expects that we can sustain a trade war far longer than the Chinese, since they've been blowing all their money on military for the last 10-12 years. The end result? The "Red Dragon" cowers back down and accepts the reality of the situation, that *WE* know he can only blow smoke.
At that point, and with their economy holding on by a thread, they will return to the table. Then what happens? Appropriate agreements are reached, and likely more in favor toward the US since China won't have a leg to stand on anymore. Both economies see a BOOM over the next few decades where we become stronger partners and, dare I say it, allies.
The communist Chinese are not too familiar with the concept of helping up one's "enemy". The US is all too familiar with it.
You can't name a nation in our history that we didn't pour money into after blowing it away. This has resulted in strong allies and amenable relationships.
China will be next. They will feel the squeeze without a shot being fired. They will crack. Then, we will pick them up and lift them to a higher place than they've ever known.

With Eastern cultures, if they are unwilling to see you as an equal, even if an enemy, then you must break them until they fully realize it. It doesn't always take force(Hiroshima and Nagasaki), and we'd like to avoid that at all costs. Tariffs seem like a perfectly reasonable alternative.


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## The Tourist

I just voted, and I was surprised to see that we are a solid forum!


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## KUSA

I generally don’t support tariffs but since the trade deals are so slanted, I support them.


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## Illini Warrior

what has happened to the US manufacturing base is a prime example of what happens when there are unfair trade imbalances - some trade agreements had good intentions initially - like when China first opened up as a market - but trade agreements aren't forever because economies change ....

China is playing hardball chiefly because of the continued domestic stirred by the DNC - I doubt they seriously negotiate until after the 2020 elections >>> and most likely intend to interfere & corrupt the election against Trump's re-election - IE Biden the Manchurian Candidate .....


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## Deebo

Although I don't like "buying from anywhere else", I know that its reality.
What should not be reality is different rates, one for us, one for them. 
I feel like all the above points are valid, and, feel that China will bend, why wouldn't they?


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## Denton

I'm for whatever China doesn't like.


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## Maine-Marine

Tariffs mean we might pay more but it keeps thing sin line with what it could be made for in America

IE - helps American companies that are trying to compete against countries that allow $1 per hour and a bowl, of rice 

I am for some (most) but not all...


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## Maine-Marine




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## Chiefster23

I was in Lowes this morning for some electrical supplies. While there I looked at small air compressors. I need one for putting air in my tires and blowing air for parts cleaning. Every compressor there was foreign made. Every one I looked at came from China. Hopefully, this nonsense will stop.


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## MisterMills357

Charge the Chi Com's a 100% tariff, they deserve it, and I don't know why we do business with them.


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## T-Man 1066

I am in manufacturing and agriculture. The talking heads say this will be bad in our industries. T-Man says full steam ahead. rolling over to the ****** hasn't done us well yet...


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## Annie

Tariffs: The Taxes That Made America Great

_That the Smoot-Hawley Tariff caused the Depression of the 1930s is a New Deal myth in which America's schoolchildren have been indoctrinated for decades. The Depression began with the crash of the stock market in 1929, nine months before Smoot-Hawley became law. The real villain: The Federal Reserve&#8230;_

Full article here.


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## Ragnarök

Maine-Marine said:


> Tariffs mean we might pay more but it keeps thing sin line with what it could be made for in America
> 
> IE - helps American companies that are trying to compete against countries that allow $1 per hour and a bowl, of rice
> 
> I am for some (most) but not all...


$1 in Vietnam is not a dollar in the United States.


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## Ragnarök

I am for tariffs mainly because our previous president was a weak b...h, and a little compensation is in order. I like what Kauboy said, and agree with him for the most part. However, I would take caution with the Chinese because they have been around a lot longer than us as far as nations go, and there is are reasons for that... One being long game is more important than short. The game is not missed by Chinese leaders. It is missed by us often now days.


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## Kauboy

KUSA said:


> I generally don't support tariffs but since the trade deals are so slanted, I support them.


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## Kauboy

Ragnarök said:


> I am for tariffs mainly because our previous president was a weak b...h, and a little compensation is in order. I like what Kauboy said, and agree with him for the most part. However, I would take caution with the Chinese because they have been around a lot longer than us as far as nations go, and there is are reasons for that... One being long game is more important than short. The game is not missed by Chinese leaders. It is missed by us often now days.


You may be mistaking the current Chinese power structure with their days of old.
Communism took hold in that country only 70 or so years ago. They're infants by historical standards. Their ancestors wouldn't recognize them now.
The U.S. is the second still-standing country to have maintained a steady and unchanged form of government going on 243 years now. The only other is a 30sq. mi. "micro-state" in Italy, lasting 400+ years.
We'll outlast the red Chinese.
They'll be red, white, and blue within the century, just you wait. :tango_face_wink:


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## Ragnarök

Kauboy said:


> You may be mistaking the current Chinese power structure with their days of old.
> Communism took hold in that country only 70 or so years ago. They're infants by historical standards. Their ancestors wouldn't recognize them now.
> The U.S. is the second still-standing country to have maintained a steady and unchanged form of government going on 243 years now. The only other is a 30sq. mi. "micro-state" in Italy, lasting 400+ years.
> We'll outlast the red Chinese.
> They'll be red, white, and blue within the century, just you wait. :tango_face_wink:


Good point.

Some things never change despite what form of government presides. The cunning take on many faces. Communism is no exception. That is precisely why communism is not a feasible form of government. It is a godly thought, yet we are not perfect.


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## Maine-Marine

Ragnarök said:


> $1 in Vietnam is not a dollar in the United States.


 sure what you are talking about... did I miss something..................

$1 american is $1 every where... what it buys may change but a buck is a buck


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## Ragnarök

Maine-Marine said:


> sure what you are talking about... did I miss something..................
> 
> $1 american is $1 every where... what it buys may change but a buck is a buck


No a buck is a buck in America.

My point is the living wage is much different outside America. A meal in Vietnam can be bought for under .50 cents US.

A equally cheap meal in the US is easily 6 times that.

Cost of living varies.


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## Ragnarök

Chiefster23 said:


> I was in Lowes this morning for some electrical supplies. While there I looked at small air compressors. I need one for putting air in my tires and blowing air for parts cleaning. Every compressor there was foreign made. Every one I looked at came from China. Hopefully, this nonsense will stop.


Why is that nonsense? They are beating us because they are playing the game better. Capitalism under the disguise of communism.


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## Ragnarök

Denton said:


> I'm for whatever China doesn't like.


The world is evolving. We need to evolve at a rate superior to that of China to beat them. So saying you are for anything that is juxtaposed to what China comes up with is not in our best interest regarding positioning.


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## Ragnarök

MisterMills357 said:


> Charge the Chi Com's a 100% tariff, they deserve it, and I don't know why we do business with them.


We do business with them because we both become rich in the process. Supply and demand.


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## KUSA

Ragnarök said:


> No a buck is a buck in America.
> 
> My point is the living wage is much different outside America. A meal in Vietnam can be bought for under .50 cents US.
> 
> A equally cheap meal in the US is easily 6 times that.
> 
> Cost of living varies.


I looked it up and you have something there. It's strange how the cost of living is way more than the income earned.


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## Denton

Ragnarök said:


> The world is evolving. We need to evolve at a rate superior to that of China to beat them. So saying you are for anything that is juxtaposed to what China comes up with is not in our best interest regarding positioning.


That isn't what I said.


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## KUSA

Kauboy said:


> View attachment 97987


I really wondered if anyone would catch that. Bravo.


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## Prepared One

Nobody really wins a trade war. Tariffs are a negotiating tool and for far to long, we have not been negotiating. China has a long term goal and they need our money to accomplish it. They will come back to the table, they need us more then we need them, we can wait.


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## The Tourist

Like most of you, I shop at "big ticket" locations, like the mall, when I need something. In truth, I haven't noticed any rise in pricing. In fact, at East Towne Mall the biggest signs you will see are the ones marked "SALE."

Yes, I know that American workers make more money than the Chinese. So what? In fact, like most businesses, they will compete in pricing with other American firms.

And as for all of the "billions of dollars going to foreign concerns," now most of that money can be invested here on updating factories and paying bonuses.

I believe that a Craftsman 1/2 by 9/16s wrench goes for about eight bucks. So after China, that could go to 8.50 or 9 dollars. I think I have purchased three or four of this size in +20 years. Yikes, this American product costs me about 35 cents per year! Oh, the commercialism!


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## Maine-Marine

Ragnarök said:


> No a buck is a buck in America.
> 
> My point is the living wage is much different outside America. A meal in Vietnam can be bought for under .50 cents US.
> 
> A equally cheap meal in the US is easily 6 times that.
> 
> Cost of living varies.


I agree, however if a product is made in vietnam and it cost them 4 hours of labor at $1 plus $2 of material... ($6)
Americans can not compete when they have to pay their employees a wage of at least minumum wage and material cost more

even worse is when china (as a government) gives money to a business (think aluminum) in order to allow them to beat American's price

short term tariffs might hurt some USA buniesses but long term they will help us get people back to work and manufacturing gong again.. as workers work they can afford to spend more on American products


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## Smitty901

I back Trump on this . It is long over due, we need to take a long view of things.


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## Ragnarök

KUSA said:


> I looked it up and you have something there. It's strange how the cost of living is way more than the income earned.


There's no way that is an accurate cost of living for average Vietnamese. I think that may be what a westerner would spend there in a month. Check out more sources and compare them.

I visited Thailand for 2 weeks a couple years ago and the cost of everything was very low. I got many meals for about $1. Vietnam is cheaper than Thailand.


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## modfan

I'm for reciprocity. Every country cheats us. We have a 10 dollar widget. If that 10 dollar widget is produced anywhere except the United States. Typically, there may or not be a small percentage import duties, Then the 10 dollar widget cost $1.07. After this it's shipped to a warehouse to be resold. There is another 30% in internal costs. Now the $10.00 widget has a cost of $4.07 and this makes $5.93 cents profit. This where things start getting interesting.

This same $10.00 widget is produced in the US for sale in China. This $10.00 widget costs $5.00 to produce. Now when you try to sell it in China. You have a choice of strict limits to the amount for widgets you can sell in the country with a incoming tax of 25% to 50%. Then if you try to register the intellectual property. You have to sell 50% of your company to someone in China. Either way whether you register or not. Your widget will show up on the open market with a different name in 6 months.

Now lets get back to the $10.00 widget that it costs you $5.00 to produce. You try to sell it in China and now of the $5.00 dollar profit you get to keep. Between $2.50 and nothing. Because the rest of your profit is going to Chinese Government. Then you get to watch your patented widget get produced and sold in China for $5.00 each and sold on Ebay for $5.00 each.

Yes. I'm for tariffs until everyone honors our patents, allows the same amount of cars into their country as we allow into the US, if they put a 10% tariff on our goods, then we should have the same tariff on their goods, and stop subsidizing industries.


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## KUSA

Ragnarök said:


> There's no way that is an accurate cost of living for average Vietnamese. I think that may be what a westerner would spend there in a month. Check out more sources and compare them.
> 
> I visited Thailand for 2 weeks a couple years ago and the cost of everything was very low. I got many meals for about $1. Vietnam is cheaper than Thailand.


You are correct in the assertion that it is a westerner's cost of living. To be more specific, it is a western retiree.

With that said, why does it cost 2.8 to 4.7 times the cost of a native for a westerner? Does the native simply live like an animal therefore not requiring the additional cash that the westerner needs?

In all reality, if someone only needs $148 to $500 per month to live, I could sell my house and combine it with retirement /savings and live there for several centuries.

https://alittleadrift.com/cost-of-living/vietnam/


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## stevekozak

I am 1000% for the tariffs! Yes, that is right: 10 times more for them than that weak-opinioned Slippy!! :vs_lol:


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## Maine-Marine

I remember when was on ship (USS Vancouver) I was chatting with a Senior Chief.. he said his brother was a Doctor in the Philippines.. and he made more money in the Navy then his brother did as a doctor


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## MisterMills357

Ragnarök said:


> We do business with them because we both become rich in the process. Supply and demand.





Ragnarök said:


> The world is evolving. We need to evolve at a rate superior to that of China to beat them. So saying you are for anything that is juxtaposed to what China comes up with is not in our best interest regarding positioning.


They use slave labor, so the laws of economics do not work in this instance; the free market is not at work here, when it comes to America and China. 
Just like it is not at work when the Mexicans & El Salvadorians come here; and cut the wage's by half, and sleep 6 to a house; and are churls to boot.

You are not paying attention friend, the situation is dire, and getting worse; and you sound like a 1990's Republican, who touted "free trade", and "the market". 
They were ideologues, and I listened to them, but now I have turned that stuff off. Free trade for the sake of free trade, is a shibboleth, and vacuous.


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## Tango2X

Trump is right --as usual--
These tariffs are a drop in the bucket.

MAGA


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## stowlin

The US should fund its government more through tariffs and other countries do the same. Encourage self reliance it’s cheaper, creates less tension, and better for all. Tariff it up slowly but continuously until industry responds by making what they need in country.


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## Annie

I hope Trump is right. I'll refrain from judging; see what happens. The potential problem with tariffs is that a lot of the things we produce here in the USA have parts that come from all over the globe. It's just hard to know what the ramifications are going to be.


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## Slippy

Annie said:


> I hope Trump is right. I'll refrain from judging; see what happens. The potential problem with tariffs is that a lot of the things we produce here in the USA have parts that come from all over the globe. It's just hard to know what the ramifications are going to be.


Excellent point, but tariffs are not the "potential problem", tariffs are the solution. The goal is to make the parts here in the US.


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## The Tourist

Annie, I listen to a lot of talk radio, and it seems that a lot of libtard representatives are whining about increased costs of production instead of utilizing cheap Chinese out-sourcing. Frankly, if something is too much for you to pay, set the desire aside and be an adult for deferred gratification.

I think we farm out too much to third world manufacturers. Even if the hourly wage is more in the USA, one company will modify it's pricing to compete with other USA companies.

America for Americans.


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## Annie

Slippy said:


> Excellent point, but tariffs are not the "potential problem", tariffs are the solution. The goal is to make the parts here in the US.


We'll see how it goes.


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## Annie

The Tourist said:


> Annie, I listen to a lot of talk radio, and it seems that a lot of libtard representatives are whining about increased costs of production instead of utilizing cheap Chinese out-sourcing. Frankly, if something is too much for you to pay, set the desire aside and be an adult for deferred gratification.


Some businesses may have to shut down if they can't get manufacturing supplies at a good price.



> I think we farm out too much to third world manufacturers.


I agree.



> Even if the hourly wage is more in the USA, one company will modify it's pricing to compete with other USA companies.


Not sure what you mean here.


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## The Tourist

Annie said:


> Not sure what you mean here.


Okay, let's use some round figures.

Let's suppose a Chinese worker makes 17 cents per day. He has worked at this job for 37 years, and his specialty is "paper mache' crap."

His American counterpart makes 25 dollars per hour and makes stuff you actually want to buy.

Then, magically, the big, bad Trumpster outlaws anything comprised of Beijing crap. The problem is that many Americans want crap and demand starts to rise.

The problem is that no one wants to buy American crap for the obscene price. Hence, cheap American (former prison convicts) workers at the ABC Plant are hired at lower wages.

Yikes, the owners of the XYZ Guild are livid, and fight fire with fire. They lower the wages of all former prison convicts to be paid even lower than those rapscallions at ABC.

To that, one plant moves to Alabama, surmising that people with six fingers per hand can make crap faster and cheaper. Wages fall yet again...

Trust me, Annie, my Dad was the Executive Vice President of The Master Lock Company. When I worked there for six summers I had to ride home (for twenty agonizing miles) with him as he pontificated on the movement of goods and cash. I just simplified it for the forum, because with eight syllable words the very concept would cause suicides!


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## Slippy

The other side of this is the Reduction of Regulations. 

If we don't reduce regulations and make it more cost effective to produce goods here in the US then we are right back to where we started.

Both president Bush's, Clinton and Obama screwed the shit out of manufacturing by all the regulations that their administrations created. Which is why I have always said, reduce regulations back to the what was on the books in 1990 and we would be a much healthier nation today.


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## Annie

The Tourist said:


> Okay, let's use some round figures.
> 
> Let's suppose a Chinese worker makes 17 cents per day. He has worked at this job for 37 years, and his specialty is "paper mache' crap."
> 
> His American counterpart makes 25 dollars per hour and makes stuff you actually want to buy.
> 
> Then, magically, the big, bad Trumpster outlaws anything comprised of Beijing crap. The problem is that many Americans want crap and demand starts to rise.
> 
> The problem is that no one wants to buy American crap for the obscene price. Hence, cheap American (former prison convicts) workers at the ABC Plant are hired at lower wages.
> 
> Yikes, the owners of the XYZ Guild are livid, and fight fire with fire. They lower the wages of all former prison convicts to be paid even lower than those rapscallions at ABC.
> 
> To that, one plant moves to Alabama, surmising that people with six fingers per hand can make crap faster and cheaper. Wages fall yet again...
> 
> Trust me, Annie, my Dad was the Executive Vice President of The Master Lock Company. When I worked there for six summers I had to ride home (for twenty agonizing miles) with him as he pontificated on the movement of goods and cash. I just simplified it for the forum, because with eight syllable words the very concept would cause suicides!


That'll be great if that's the deal. I do understand why everyone here wants to get behind this; I want to, too. That would be completely awesome. I'll just wait and see. Keepin' my fingers crossed.


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## The Tourist

Annie said:


> That'll be great if that's the deal. I do understand why everyone here wants to get behind this; I want to, too. That would be completely awesome. I'll just wait and see. Keepin' my fingers crossed.


The downside to this is the "human factor." If the manufacturing giants find out that there is a better profit margin by screwing the employees (and the union, in the case of Master Lock), then only low paying jobs will be found in that area. For example, one of the biggest manufacturing companies in the old Milwaukee area was A.O. Smith. They were the company that made car frames for the "Big Three."

You should have seen that dump. It reminds me of what Nazi buildings looked like just before the end of the war. Those buildings were partly shelled, the conditions miserable and the employees were still required to "_make their tally of bricks_."

And get this, my Dad used to say that when it came to conditions in big manufacturing plants (and Master Lock had a payroll of 2,200 employees), his company had one of the cleanest and safest assembly areas. I was a "dock donkey," I moved skids with a 'hand truck.' Oh, there wasn't a motor or an engine on that vintage of hand truck. Just sweat and grunting as you rolled several hundred pounds of laminated steel locks...


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## Smitty901

100% fair trade of Stick it to them. Next if a country makes a product and it can not be sold, or owned in that country. If the people of that country don't have access to it then they can not peddle it here .


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## KUSA

Smitty901 said:


> 100% fair trade of Stick it to them. Next if a country makes a product and it can not be sold, or owned in that country. If the people of that country don't have access to it then they can not peddle it here .


I'm not sure that I understand what you are trying to articulate there. Could you rephrase that?


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## modfan

I want to make sure I understand your point. It is better to pay the Chinese worker 17cents a day then to pay a released convict who can't find a job and lives on hand outs on the corner something. Then when you run out of convicts who find it easier to stand on the corner then working. You have to raise your pay to get the high school dropouts who have been having babies instead of working.

No matter who makes the money or how much money they make. It will always be better to create jobs in our country then create jobs in another country.



The Tourist said:


> Okay, let's use some round figures.
> 
> Let's suppose a Chinese worker makes 17 cents per day. He has worked at this job for 37 years, and his specialty is "paper mache' crap."
> 
> His American counterpart makes 25 dollars per hour and makes stuff you actually want to buy.
> 
> Then, magically, the big, bad Trumpster outlaws anything comprised of Beijing crap. The problem is that many Americans want crap and demand starts to rise.
> 
> The problem is that no one wants to buy American crap for the obscene price. Hence, cheap American (former prison convicts) workers at the ABC Plant are hired at lower wages.
> 
> Yikes, the owners of the XYZ Guild are livid, and fight fire with fire. They lower the wages of all former prison convicts to be paid even lower than those rapscallions at ABC.
> 
> To that, one plant moves to Alabama, surmising that people with six fingers per hand can make crap faster and cheaper. Wages fall yet again...
> 
> Trust me, Annie, my Dad was the Executive Vice President of The Master Lock Company. When I worked there for six summers I had to ride home (for twenty agonizing miles) with him as he pontificated on the movement of goods and cash. I just simplified it for the forum, because with eight syllable words the very concept would cause suicides!


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## Smitty901

KUSA said:


> I'm not sure that I understand what you are trying to articulate there. Could you rephrase that?


 Just what it says. If a country is playing us on trade we hit them with every tariff we can. Countries like China , NK ect. Exports many things their own people can not have. The way I see it is simple if their own people can have a product or technology, then they can not export and sell it here.


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## KUSA

Smitty901 said:


> Just what it says. If a country is playing us on trade we hit them with every tariff we can. Countries like China , NK ect. Exports many things their own people can not have. The way I see it is simple if their own people can have a product or technology, then they can not export and sell it here.


Ok, I think I understand what you were trying to say.

Why have a stipulation that if the commoners can't have it, they can't export it? I'm just trying to understand your thought process.


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## Smitty901

KUSA said:


> Ok, I think I understand what you were trying to say.
> 
> Why have a stipulation that if the commoners can't have it, they can't export it? I'm just trying to understand your thought process.


Ok. Why should a country be allowed to export items they deny their own people. Just a a simple example would be fire arms. Many countries that manufacture firearms and import them to the US. Affecting US manufactures. But US manufactures do not have a fair chance at those countries markets. If we do not have the same fair access to a market in your country then you can not compete with ours. If you product is restricted for you own people then it does not belong here.


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## The Tourist

modfan said:


> It will always be better to create jobs in our country then create jobs in another country.


Oh, I believe in that, too. I'm not sure that factory owners believe it. If they can lay off employees to make more profits they'll do it every time.

I'm glad that President Trump convinced factory owners to move their facilities out of foreign countries and move them back to the USA. Now the problem is teaching the millennials to go out and look for work...


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## Squadus

I don't think tariffs are so good for the global economy. They de-incentivize trade to the United States and encourage other manufacturing countries i.e. China, Taiwan to do business elsewhere. These countries are more likely to do business with countries in Africa and the Middle East which have much more lenient trade laws and are growing nations in general. 

On the other hand, it is good to see businesses, especially small businesses in the United States grow, so as long as we keep getting more efficient as corporations tariffs will be more effective.


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