# Is Pope Francis/Catholic Church Leaders EVIL? Are Catholics complicit?



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I wonder how people can continue to fund, attend and ascribe to the doctrine of the Catholic Church after all of the evil that the church has done specifically regarding molest and abuse of children and generally of the history of evil doings over centuries?

Just another thing below to add to the long list of things that make me believe Catholic church leaders are evil.

Am I wrong?

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/...ntral-american-migrants-aid-peters-pence.html


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Read that this morning. Disheartening to say the least. Why should the Catholic church be any different then any other political entity or country. Eventually, heavy with power and money, they corrupt themselves. 

Always one of my favorites

Exodu32:7

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:”


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

The Catholic Church has done some pretty bad things. They handled the child abuse thing miserably. No excuse.
But, it seems we always look at the richest religions, countrys , and people to go after for bad things they have done.
We need to focus on People that do bad things and not say everyone in that religion, or country is bad.. Unless we are at war, then its game on.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

I do believe the Church leadership is corrupt and even evil. I don't think most Catholics are. I have known many fine Catholics. I believe Annie here on this forum is a devout Catholic, and she seems like a very fine lady and great human being. I personally don't subscribe to the doctrine, and find my close encounters with God at the top of mountains, or in the emptiness of the desert.


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

the communist pope is complicit.. Catholics are not.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Full disclosure: I was raised Catholic. My cousins and I were alter boys. We had great experiences in the church and the priest and nuns were good to us kids. Unfortunately that is not the case with all concerned all the time. The Church playing musical priests to protect the Church was a horrible policy that allowed molistation of additional children. The leadership has been criminally complicit. The faithful are appalled by such acts as would any moral being. The Church heirachy is out of touch and has made the problem worse. 

I am currently a nondenominational Christian because I am getting the right message to feed my soul. I wasn’t growing spiritually in the Church. There will always be those who gain positions of trust that will abuse that trust and use their positions for evil. Politics, teachers, police, clergy and so on. The Bible warns us to watch out for such wolves in sheeps clothing. The Church has had corruption though out its history and survived and I believe that will be the case but it is going to take a beating.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Good responses all, I appreciate them as I am struggling with grouping Catholics in the same evil category as so called moderate muslimes who fund islamists who want you and me dead.

Isn't it the same thing with church going Catholics who tithe and those funds go to the evil doers in the Vatican and elsewhere within the Catholic Church?


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Interesting discussion right here. Will vote with those who say Catholics in general are near all super nice folks. Wife was partially raised by a nice Catholic family and I helped guard there big Church over where I worked many times. Had to come make sure they was not getting too wild on casino night etc. They treated me very nice. Think I done told the story about following the money tenders to the bank to make an after hours deposit. When about half way down the chute the overfilled money bag got hung up in the teeth of the accepter gizmo. It was right ofter Easer or Christiams I think. Those jokers had me out there with a tire tool prizing around on the deopository to try to make it go on down. Sure somebody was taking movies of that. Expected the FBI to come knocking any day. lol. Then on top of all that we were Lutherans for sevreal years..and that is just Catholics minus the statues of the Virgin Mary. So I am sorta familar with ritualistic hocus pocus bs. Their theology is all messed up..but fortunately the Gospel of Christ is highly durable. Hopefully durable enough to survive commie Jesuit Popes. I have took a vow to not trash talk other Christian denominations or cults..so thats all I know about that. It is sorta astounding how much they are collectiong off the US government to take care of the undocumented democrats. 
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/24/catholic-church-collects-16-billion-in-us-contract/


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

I was raised Catholic. I am not a devout Catholic. I have faith in the Lord, God.. My faith may not be as strong as others. I do not go to Church ever week at all and havent in quite some time.
But, I believe in Jesus Christ and what he did for us and his sacrifices. I believe. Thats my faith..
It does bother me that the Catholic Church is the only one brought to light on this molestation issue.
Islam calls for it. I am sure every other religion, cult and members only club has had issues with the same dang thing.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Yep the current Pope is a commie tool of the globalists without a doubt. There are also a chunk of the Catholic Higher Leadership that is corrupt. With that said, most Catholics are good people and most Priest/Nuns are good people.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

After learning what the church did with the Nazis after WW2 anyone that follows, supports or believes them are a bunch of fools. Organized religion has been the biggest joke played on modern man, IMHO. Just the amount of deaths caused by religion alone is enough to ban it in all forms, again IMHO. Blast away. :violent:


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Chipper said:


> After learning what the church did with the Nazis after WW2 anyone that follows, supports or believes them are a bunch of fools. Organized religion has been the biggest joke played on modern man, IMHO. Just the amount of deaths caused by religion alone is enough to ban it in all forms, again IMHO. Blast away. :violent:


Death because of religion is a myth, to an extent.. Think about Pol Pot, Mao. No religion tied to them because they werent practicing anymore.
But, many wars that are said to be caused by religion were just stating that is the religion of the majority within the country.
The Crusades was a war of religion, started by Muslims..
But, its another topic, another thread.. I am told to not judge people. So, I dont , but character says allot, regardless of religion.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Slippy said:


> I wonder how people can continue to fund, attend and ascribe to the doctrine of the Catholic Church after all of the evil that the church has done specifically regarding molest and abuse of children and generally of the history of evil doings over centuries?
> 
> Just another thing below to add to the long list of things that make me believe Catholic church leaders are evil.
> 
> ...


Are Catholics complicit? They are believers in the faith. That is different from the Catholic government.

Think about it this way. The U.S. government has done a lot of bad things around the world. Are we to blame?


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Slippy said:


> Good responses all, I appreciate them as I am struggling with grouping Catholics in the same evil category as so called moderate muslimes who fund islamists who want you and me dead.
> 
> Isn't it the same thing with church going Catholics who tithe and those funds go to the evil doers in the Vatican and elsewhere within the Catholic Church?


I don't really think it is the same. The doctrine of the Holy Bible does not tell the followers of Christ to kill in his name. It does not advocate evil in the name of The Father, The Son, or The Holy Ghost. The same cannot be said of Islam and the Quran.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

stevekozak said:


> I do believe the Church leadership is corrupt and even evil. I don't think most Catholics are. I have known many fine Catholics. I believe Annie here on this forum is a devout Catholic, and she seems like a very fine lady and great human being. I personally don't subscribe to the doctrine, and find my close encounters with God at the top of mountains, or in the emptiness of the desert.


Thanks, stevekozak, that's very kind.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Slippy said:


> I wonder how people can continue to fund, attend and ascribe to the doctrine of the Catholic Church after all of the evil that the church has done specifically regarding molest and abuse of children and generally of the history of evil doings over centuries?
> 
> Just another thing below to add to the long list of things that make me believe Catholic church leaders are evil.
> 
> ...


Let me ask you this: are you complicit in the evils that the United States has commited simply because you're a citizen? All those bad politicians? Are they your fault?

I say no. I think you stand for what is and was always great about this country. It breaks our heart that things are going so far wrong now. Same goes for me; for my country and the Catholic Church. I'll be patriot and a Catholic until I die, I hope.

All I can say is that the approved Catholic Church prophecies are coming true. Our Lady of Good Success, Our Lady of La Salette and others. All are coming true.

The Catholic Church has been infiltrated by Communists and Freemasons. You can download Bella Dodd's School of Darkness online to read about it, or get the reader's digest version on Wikipedia if you care.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

The difference is that the Church is not as a basic tenant seeking converts by submission or death. Spanish Inquisition? Religious wars? You bet. Crusades? Yep. Enter the crusades all the despited lands were either Jewish or Christian prior to Islam. Let's also look at Protestants. Henry the 8th turned on the Church when they refused to annul his marriage. Salem witch hunts ring a bell? Lots of anti Catholism and anti Semitism too. Does one get painted with a broad brush because of the misdeeds of the past? Religions and faiths are passionate things.

Look at what happened to the branch divisions at the hands of the ATF, FBI and other government agencies. Are we evil because we pay taxes? I do think parishioners need to demand more of there leadership. The Vatican is not transparent by any means. @Slippy has a point: are good Catholics or followers of other faiths enablers with tithes when it is known that leadership commits mortal sin repeatedly and unrepentantly? Money talks. Much is used correctly. Everyone is not guilty because of a sinner in leadership but such acts done repeatedly can not go on unpunished.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Chipper said:


> Organized religion has been the biggest joke played on modern man, :


so are you a fan of disorganized religion???

pretty sure God is into organized...

even mentions how the christian church should be arranged... pastor, elders, evangelist, teachers, etc

I think your real problem is not with organized versus disorganized - your problem is with people that ABUSE or misuse the FAITH to further their own agenda!!!!

remember - words matter

when you mention religions killing people it harkens back to those that point to the wrong some folks did while claiming to be followers of Jesus...

Hitler claimed to be a christian, as did others who killed, raped and pillaged

to be fair you have to ask...were they doing what Jesus instructed? If they were not then you can not lay that at Jesus's feet


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Annie said:


> Let me ask you this: are you complicit in the evils that the United States has commited simply because you're a citizen? All those bad politicians? Are they your fault?
> 
> I say no. I think you stand for what is and was always great about this country. It breaks our heart that things are going so far wrong now. Same goes for me; for my country and the Catholic Church. I'll be patriot and a Catholic until I die, I hope.
> 
> ...


Hey! Don't go stealing my thoughts without a hat-tip!:vs_cool: :vs_laugh:


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Annie said:


> Let me ask you this: are you complicit in the evils that the United States has commited simply because you're a citizen? All those bad politicians? Are they your fault?
> 
> I say no. I think you stand for what is and was always great about this country. It breaks our heart that things are going so far wrong now. Same goes for me; for my country and the Catholic Church. I'll be patriot and a Catholic until I die, I hope.
> 
> ...


if a Catholic (and you all know I am not a fan) gives money to the church with the intent that that money would be used for supporting the good works of the church they are NOT responsible for acts of evil

if americans pay taxes as they are supposed to and some government members are evil... they can not be accountable for that

I was once the chairman of the board for a non-profit food pantry (non government funded). We once had a long debate about how to make sure we did not have freeloaders or people that did not need the assistance showing up. Since we did not require them to submit any forms or proof of need we only had their word that they were in need..

after much debate I said basically - it is not on us to verify that our good will was being used/abused... we were doing a good deed by providing food for families in need.. if somebody was abusing it, that was on them and they would be held accountable

same with people that give money to churches, nonprofits, etc.... if their spirit in giving is good and the organization is (overall) doing good... they should not be blamed if time to time bad people do bad things... if we demand 100% clean hands we will stop all charity for all groups...

if you are however supporting a group that is evil _PLANNED PARENTHOOD for example - DOOM ON YOU


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Just saw this on gab.com. Pretty scary if true. 
https://freedomproject.com/christ-c...L1gLRhNbUkOAAI&sfns=xmo#.XLgTwMWBovk.facebook


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matthew 7:15-20 (NIV)


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> if a Catholic (and you all know I am not a fan) gives money to the church with the intent that that money would be used for supporting the good works of the church they are NOT responsible for acts of evil
> 
> if americans pay taxes as they are supposed to and some government members are evil... they can not be accountable for that
> 
> ...


Yes, I think we can definitively say that any organization that kills hundreds of thousands of babies a year, as matter of course, is as evil as anything else Satan can come up with!! Black of heart and black of mind!!!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

bigwheel said:


> Just saw this on gab.com. Pretty scary if true.
> https://freedomproject.com/christ-c...L1gLRhNbUkOAAI&sfns=xmo#.XLgTwMWBovk.facebook


Thanks bigwheel
https://leohohmann.com/2019/02/10/p...ring-diversity-of-religions-is-willed-by-god/
https://blackholezoo.com/pope-signs-pact-with-muslims-towards-one-world-religion/
Pope Francis signs pact with muslimes! WHAT? 
That pretty much seals the deal. He is evil hands down.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

bigwheel said:


> Just saw this on gab.com. Pretty scary if true.
> https://freedomproject.com/christ-c...L1gLRhNbUkOAAI&sfns=xmo#.XLgTwMWBovk.facebook


Honestly nothing with this pope surprises me anymore.

How about this one? Did you catch this?
Prophetic Peace Dove Attack
29 January 2014

Your Islamic Future: Prophetic Peace Dove Attack


















> At a recent ceremony at St. Peter's Square, Pope Francis, speaking from a window of the Apostolic Palace said, in reference to political tensions in the Ukraine:
> "I hope for constructive dialogue between the institutions and civil society, and that - without recourse to violent action - the spirit of peace and the search for common good may prevail in the hearts of all."
> As a symbol of this "spirit of peace," the Pope had two children, one on each side of him, release two doves from the window. But then an amazing and unexpected thing happen: both of the "peace doves" were attacked by angry birds - one by a crow (or raven), and the other by a seagull, as you can see in the photos to the right.


More here.

Remember this? Lightning striking the Vatican the night before BXVI resigns.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/all-women-bible/Mother-Harlots


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Those who are greatly scandalized--whether rightly or wrongly--generally enjoy it a whole lot.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

AquaHull said:


> I'll just leave this here.
> 
> https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/all-women-bible/Mother-Harlots


I'm thinking that a lot of people are going to be surprised when they find that their "connect-the-dots" attempt wasn't on the money.


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## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

I read the news today.... oh boy


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## r4fthrs45 (Jan 25, 2019)

So many false narratives and assumptions in this thread. First off the Pope did not sign a `pact' with the Nation of Islam. It was a peace treaty to try and end the killings and violence in the Middle East and the spread of terrorism. In full disclosure I am a Catholic (by choice) and I agree with their teachings and what they are trying to do throughout the world (spreading peace, humanitarian aid and the word of God). I don't think they are superior to other Christian faiths and it is disturbing to me that they always seem to be the target for both non believers and other Christians as well. Yes, there has been some terrible things that have happened and others have tried to cover them up, but that is the evil of man and not the church. If you look at other Christian denominations, these things have and are happening there as well, but the press doesn't get as much mileage from an individual church, as they do from a large established organization. Remove the log from your own eye, before bothering with the splinter in mine.

The other thing to realize is the reason they consider the Catholic church as rich is that they own properties all around the world (churches, schools, hospitals, hospices, shelters, food pantries) and that is 95% of their assessed value. The Catholic Church was the first organized church commissioned by Jesus to his disciple Peter (the first Pope). Because of this they have had over 2000 years to grow and build the first schools, hospitals and other infrastructure to help the poor. Three of their main charities are in the top 25 for money going directly to the cause (95-97%). Most of the money they do have either supports their current physical assets or to charity, again this doesn't make them superior, as other Christian faiths do good works, it is just that the Catholics have had the advantage of doing it longer.

The only other thing I feel compelled to add is that if ever was there a time to be united as Christians, it is now. I really don't care what denomination you are, you are my brother. We may go to different churches, we may have slightly different views and interpretations of the Bible, but we agree on what is important. There is one God (God of love and forgiveness) and he gave his only son for our salvation. Jesus told us the two most important Commandments where: `Love on another as I have loved you.' and `Do not judge lest you be judged'. Peace be with you all.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

stevekozak said:


> I do believe the Church leadership is corrupt and even evil. I don't think most Catholics are.


I'm with you on this issue.

Technically, I'm a Catholic. However, after a disappointing meeting with a priest while setting up our marriage, my wife and I became SDAs. Yikes, they know their Bibles! And like people always remark, "_God puts you where he wants you_."

As a boy, I wanted to become a parish priest. I knew a great role-model in the guise of a local priest. My dad was against all faiths and forbid me to continue in this pursuit, so 18 months later I was on the back of a Harley. As I said, "_God puts you..._"


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

r4fthrs45 said:


> So many false narratives and assumptions in this thread. First off the Pope did not sign a `pact' with the Nation of Islam. It was a peace treaty to try and end the killings and violence in the Middle East and the spread of terrorism.


Whatever you want to call it, the pope said this:
"God not only permits, but positively wills, the pluralism and diversity of religions, both Christian and nonChristian."

Jesus said:
John 14:6; "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."



> In full disclosure I am a Catholic (by choice) and I agree with their teachings and what they are trying to do throughout the world (spreading peace, humanitarian aid and the word of God).


I'm a Catholic, too.



> I don't think they are superior to other Christian faiths and it is disturbing to me that they always seem to be the target for both non believers and other Christians as well.


I don't think the people are, but the traditional teachings are superior.



> Yes, there has been some terrible things that have happened and others have tried to cover them up, but that is the evil of man and not the church. If you look at other Christian denominations, these things have and are happening there as well, but the press doesn't get as much mileage from an individual church, as they do from a large established organization. Remove the log from your own eye, before bothering with the splinter in mine.


No, we should be better. We are supposed to be better.
Jesus said:
[48] But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.



> The other thing to realize is the reason they consider the Catholic church as rich is that they own properties all around the world (churches, schools, hospitals, hospices, shelters, food pantries) and that is 95% of their assessed value. The Catholic Church was the first organized church commissioned by Jesus to his disciple Peter (the first Pope). Because of this they have had over 2000 years to grow and build the first schools, hospitals and other infrastructure to help the poor. Three of their main charities are in the top 25 for money going directly to the cause (95-97%). Most of the money they do have either supports their current physical assets or to charity, again this doesn't make them superior, as other Christian faiths do good works, it is just that the Catholics have had the advantage of doing it longer.


 Our forefathers did great things. They built great churches and cathedrals with the nichols and dimes of common people. Missionaries literally sacrificed their lives to bring the Faith to the Indians, the Chinese, etc. Now we build churches that look like steak houses (Fr. Cekada's words) and Pope Paul VI's Hall in the Vatican that literally looks like a snake's head. What's happened?











> The only other thing I feel compelled to add is that if ever was there a time to be united as Christians, it is now. I really don't care what denomination you are, you are my brother. We may go to different churches, we may have slightly different views and interpretations of the Bible, but we agree on what is important. There is one God (God of love and forgiveness) and he gave his only son for our salvation. Jesus told us the two most important Commandments where: `Love on another as I have loved you.' and `Do not judge lest you be judged'. Peace be with you all.


 I'm with you in as much as we need unity.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Well, Annie, you found a picture of a church that looks like a snake. To be fair, I just saw a picture of a two headed snake that looks a bit like a Christian Cross. I believe that God has a sense of humor.

To give you some peace, I do remember my classes in Daniel/Revelation. There is a line in Revelation that quotes that "the remnant" shall all stand together waiting for God to return. (My wife is feverishly looking through her Bible passages, she believes it's Rev 14-6).

During the class I was taught that that their use of the word 'remnant' meant the survivors of the end times. And they could be Catholics, Protestants, Indian Chiefs or Radish Lovers. The common denominator was the their love and faith in God.

Remember, there were several Waffen SS officers who risked their lives and their careers to fly to England and end that senseless war. I hope to shake their hands on the Sea of Glass. Yes, bikers and Nazis will be in Heaven...


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

r4fthrs45 said:


> So many false narratives and assumptions in this thread. _*First off the Pope did not sign a `pact' with the Nation of Islam. It was a peace treaty to try and end the killings and violence in the Middle East and the spread of terrorism*_. In full disclosure I am a Catholic (by choice) and I agree with their teachings and what they are trying to do throughout the world (spreading peace, humanitarian aid and the word of God). I don't think they are superior to other Christian faiths and it is disturbing to me that they always seem to be the target for both non believers and other Christians as well. Yes, there has been some terrible things that have happened and others have tried to cover them up, but that is the evil of man and not the church. If you look at other Christian denominations, these things have and are happening there as well, but the press doesn't get as much mileage from an individual church, as they do from a large established organization. Remove the log from your own eye, before bothering with the splinter in mine.
> 
> The other thing to realize is the reason they consider the Catholic church as rich is that they own properties all around the world (churches, schools, hospitals, hospices, shelters, food pantries) and that is 95% of their assessed value. The Catholic Church was the first organized church commissioned by Jesus to his disciple Peter (the first Pope). Because of this they have had over 2000 years to grow and build the first schools, hospitals and other infrastructure to help the poor. Three of their main charities are in the top 25 for money going directly to the cause (95-97%). Most of the money they do have either supports their current physical assets or to charity, again this doesn't make them superior, as other Christian faiths do good works, it is just that the Catholics have had the advantage of doing it longer.
> 
> The only other thing I feel compelled to add is that if ever was there a time to be united as Christians, it is now. I really don't care what denomination you are, you are my brother. We may go to different churches, we may have slightly different views and interpretations of the Bible, but we agree on what is important. There is one God (God of love and forgiveness) and he gave his only son for our salvation. Jesus told us the two most important Commandments where: `Love on another as I have loved you.' and `Do not judge lest you be judged'. Peace be with you all.


Appreciate your response.

First a "pact" and a "treaty" are synonymous. So yes, the evil pope signed a pact.

Secondly, please point out the false narratives in this thread. I do not see any.

Third, I agree that all Christians need to come together to fight this evil that exists. Sadly, too many Catholics (as well as members of other denominations) are not Christians.

From what I see out of this current pope, he is evil and needs to be ousted as do 90% of those at the Vatican and most likely a large percentage of those in local parishes.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Slippy said:


> From what I see out of this current pope, he is evil and needs to be ousted as do 90% of those at the Vatican and most likely a large percentage of those in local parishes.


Well, this is a case of simply "there is no honor among thieves."

When this current pope came to collect his white robes and the list of pliable altar boys he also openly criticized those bishops and cardinals for their overt attention to their large investments. Wait, what large investments? I thought this was a cult of "poverty." I guess that left the Vatican with "chastity."

My disgust with catholicism is akin to any and all evil unions of religion and politics. All to often in history the supposed religious body used the king's army to smack the population back into line. You might know part of that as the 'Dark Ages' or "the Reformation," depending on whom you betted on.

I hate to sound like a crybaby on this, but when the church hides behind the army, it's time to eliminate them all. Bargaining just means gun control and executions--just like all other times in history.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

The Tourist said:


> Remember, there were several Waffen SS officers who risked their lives and their careers to fly to England and end that senseless war. I hope to shake their hands on the Sea of Glass. Yes, bikers and Nazis will be in Heaven...


Might even be a protestant or two there as well--if you guys are lucky. God is so generous. :vs_smirk:


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Slippy said:


> Appreciate your response.
> 
> First a "pact" and a "treaty" are synonymous. So yes, the evil pope signed a pact.
> 
> ...


This pope is the worst ever, and it gives me a lot of sorrow to have to say that because regardless, he's still my papa. He's promoted a lot of bad clergy and he wants to make the Church into something akin to the Peace Corps or (as Fr Martin used to say), Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Just another human organization. But most of the priests are good, holy men who have to suffer disrespect for the sins of other priests.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Annie said:


> This pope is the worst ever, and it gives me a lot of sorrow to have to say that because regardless, he's still my papa. He's promoted a lot of bad clergy and he wants to make the Church into something akin to the Peace Corps or (as Fr Martin used to say), Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Just another human organization. But most of the priests are good, holy men who have to suffer disrespect for the sins of other priests.


I admonish you not to call evil "Papa." The Bible admonishes is to be careful who we call brother, even.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Denton said:


> I admonish you not to call evil "Papa." The Bible admonishes is to be careful who we call brother, even.


If your father was a drunkard (like Noah) and was found naked lying in the tent, he's still your father. God would want you to honor him and cover him, but not approve of nor be like him. I still have the family name, which is Catholic. And although I don't agree with what _this_ papa's about, I'll never disown my family patriarchy, which was instituted by Christ Himself. One, Holy, Apostolic. I'm all in with regard to the Church's teachings.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Annie said:


> If your father was a drunkard (like Noah) and was found naked lying in the tent, he's still your father. God would want you to honor him and cover him, but not approve of nor be like him. I still have the family name, which is Catholic. And although I don't agree with what _this_ papa's about, I'll never disown my family patriarchy, which was instituted by Christ Himself. One, Holy, Apostolic. I'm all in with regard to the Church's teachings.


My father isn't calling himself what the pope is said by the Catholic Church to be. If the Vicar" of Christ is working evil, he is not the Vicar, nor will is he your "Papa." Associate with heretics and call heretical people your spiritual leader...
Stick with dogma over the Bible at your own peril.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Denton said:


> My father isn't calling himself what the pope is said by the Catholic Church to be. If the Vicar" of Christ is working evil, he is not the Vicar, nor will is he your "Papa." Associate with heretics and call heretical people your spiritual leader...
> Stick with dogma over the Bible at your own peril.


Christ has never disappointed me. The teachings of the Church aren't heretical, and never have been. They're all truth. No pope, even this one has ever taught heresies as defined doctrine. I will serve Christ.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Annie said:


> Christ has never disappointed me. The teachings of the Church aren't heretical, and never have been. They're all truth. No pope, even this one has ever taught heresies as defined doctrine. I will serve Christ.


I will agree that Christ will never disappoint us. Many of those who proport to relay the will of Christ and the Father (the real Father, Who art in Heaven, not some rich dude in a funny hat, or a preacher from a pulpit) will disappoint us and even try to mislead us. I find my peace, and my church, on the lonely tops of mountains or the barren expanses of desert. My relationship with God is deeply personal, and does not allow for intermediaries on Earth. But, that is who I am. I am paranoid about many things. I would rather read the Word myself and take it's meaning than rely on someone else to interpret it for me.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Annie said:


> Christ has never disappointed me. The teachings of the Church aren't heretical, and never have been. They're all truth. No pope, even this one has ever taught heresies as defined doctrine. I will serve Christ.


We're talking two things, now. The teachings of Christ and the doctrine you have been taught. Two different things, Dear. There are the teachings of the "church" and the teachings of Jesus. 
You mentioned tradition, earlier. There are earlier traditions and doctrines Those who abide by them are being slaughtered. Oddly, they are being slaughtered because of the decision made by the U.S. government for the last 20 or so years.

Do you think we Protestants don't follow Jesus because we don't follow Catholic doctrine?

There's one thing this pope has accomplished. I know several people who were Catholics who examined Catholicism because of him and broke away from it. Did their love and commitment to Jesus diminish? Nope. They became closer because they realized the veil had been torn and all the man-made BS was a racket. They know not to call evil Papa. Dad. Abba. There is one Papa, Dad, Abba, and it isn't a man.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Denton, as usual you have taken me to the brink. I am fully 95% with you.

There is one nagging little line of dialog that I cannot ignore. Whether it be the Bible or the last five minutes of the movie "The Ten Commandments," there is the concept of handing down The Word of God to the next generation. As Moses goes off to Moab to meet with his Creator, the entire written word is handed to Joshua (John Derek). Joshua doesn't demean or worship Moses, he seeks to ascertain the direction of God and those who follow him.

Joshua simply says, "_As for me and my house, we shall worship the Lord_."

Now, Biblically, I don't think anyone revered or defended Moses more than Joshua. But when Moses was called home, it was the direction of God that Joshua vowed to protect, not the memory of a mere mortal, even if that man had seen The Burning Bush.

Personally, I have my struggles over this. For example, did I do right in leaving the Catholic church? Did I reject God because I couldn't stomach the idolators? Or should I acquiesce and put on my best pair of crappy jeans and get to mass? What would the Burning Bush want me to do?


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

On a separate but related subject, what is this B.S. Racket called "Confession" in the Catholic Church?

Mrs Slippy reminds me that there is nothing in the Bible that commands or even suggests that a man confess his sins to a priest or a church employee. However if you sin against another man you should confess your sin to that man in order to ask for his forgiveness. She says its in the book of James but I didn't look it up.

She goes on to say that the practice of confession to a priest abominates the fact that Christ died on the Cross for our sins. Makes sense to me.

it also seems to me that confessing your sins to a priest puts that priest, another man, in between you and your relationship with Christ. I believe that having a personal relationship with God is vital in Christianity, not having to go through a church employee. Isn't that part of why the pilgrims left the Church of England? Anyway...back to my diatribe about confession...

...Since we know for a fact that many many many priests and bishops are evil homosexual, pedophile types that confessing ones sins to them may lead to a certain amount of blackmail from these priests?

I suppose that if a man has a sexual proclivity toward another man's anus or an innocent child that man would have no problem blackmailing you after you confess that you kissed Betty Jablonski at the office party in 1968?


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Slippy said:


> On a separate but related subject, what is this B.S. Racket called "Confession" in the Catholic Church?
> 
> Mrs Slippy reminds me that there is nothing in the Bible that commands or even suggests that a man confess his sins to a priest or a church employee. However if you sin against another man you should confess your sin to that man in order to ask for his forgiveness. She says its in the book of James but I didn't look it up.
> 
> ...


Dammit Slip! You mean to tell me that Betty Jablonski was two timing me at the same damn office party? Geez, what a harlot she (we) was! :tango_face_grin:


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

A Watchman said:


> Dammit Slip! You mean to tell me that Betty Jablonski was two timing me at the same damn office party? Geez, what a harlot she (we) was! :tango_face_grin:


I dated a Betty Jablonski once, couldn't be the same gal tho, she said she only had eyes for me! :tango_face_wink:


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

You might find this hard to believe, but as I near to Clint Eastwood's age, I too am the most troubled by sins that are decades old. The problem is what didn't seem so bad four decades ago is now obvious and painful. But what do you do if sins that effected those are long since gone?

My mother was an alcoholic and took a lot of shots at me--and I never embraced any of her four dry-outs. She once told me it was a "disease," to which I countered that yes, it was an ailment, but of the 'elbow.' Hers just kept bending towards her mouth...

At that point I had recently broken up with the woman I would one day marry and moved in with The Red Queen. We got a letter so illegibly written it looked like a kid's first attempt at cursive. BTW, for you who are outcome based educated millennials, "cursive" is an obscure Amenhotep variant believed to center on ancient pyramid construction.

Turns out this letter was written by my mother, not exactly a plea for forgiveness but about as close as I was going to get. I never verbally forgave her.

I never saw what my dad went through. All he did was earn every nickel I spent, supported a woman who was in and out of mental institutions and try to cope with an under-age MENSA child, racked with fear and an ulcer since he was 12 years old--my little brother, now a professor.

It seemed like self defense--at the time. I cannot go back and repair that mess, so it haunts me. I've loss count at the dozens of times I've asked for forgiveness, so I get Clint's character's confession.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Well call me a "Doubting Thomas", since that is my Christian name.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Denton said:


> We're talking two things, now. The teachings of Christ and the doctrine you have been taught. Two different things, Dear. There are the teachings of the "church" and the teachings of Jesus.
> You mentioned tradition, earlier. There are earlier traditions and doctrines Those who abide by them are being slaughtered. Oddly, they are being slaughtered because of the decision made by the U.S. government for the last 20 or so years.
> 
> Do you think we Protestants don't follow Jesus because we don't follow Catholic doctrine?
> ...


I'll stick with what was always and everywhere taught by the magisterium as passed on through the laying on of hands that goes all the way back to Christ.

This pope is but a little blip in the great scheme of things. Another will take his place, and hopefully clean up the mess he's making. When the father of a human family makes a mess of things, I believe we're still obliged to obey whatever he asks provided it's right and good. That's God's command; honor thy father and mother. But whatever he asks that goes against God's Divine Law shouldn't be listened to. We reject him to his face. So for me it's that simple.

As for you Protestants, you asked. How about for now let's just focus on what we can agree on?

Actually I attended a Presbyterian church for a while before returning to Catholicism. That was back in the 80's. I learned a lot from you guys. A lot. And btw, if memory serves me, I think I was pretty amazed back then to see that the Presbyterians say a Creed very similar to our Credo. Here's the Catholic Creed:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, [yes, I think they said catholic, which just meant one church]
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Slippy said:


> On a separate but related subject, what is this B.S. Racket called "Confession" in the Catholic Church?
> 
> Mrs Slippy reminds me that there is nothing in the Bible that commands or even suggests that a man confess his sins to a priest or a church employee. However if you sin against another man you should confess your sin to that man in order to ask for his forgiveness. She says its in the book of James but I didn't look it up.
> 
> ...


Mr Slippy, I've never been to one confession that wasn't Our Lord's mercy through the words of the priest. Catholics are body and blood people. We're spiritual too, but for us, we want to hear Jesus say the words, "I absolve you" through the voice of the priest. For you, it's a scandal. For us living it, it's a beautiful thing.

ETA:

[21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Annie said:


> Mr Slippy, I've never been to one confession that wasn't Our Lord's mercy through the words of the priest. Catholics are body and blood people. We're spiritual too, but for us, we want to hear Jesus say the words, "I absolve you" through the voice of the priest. For you, it's a scandal. For us living it, it's a beautiful thing.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> [21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.


Do you drink from the communal chalice at Mass? If not why not?


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Thomas does knot doubt this, as I was enlightened tonight

Ye that have ears to hear, I just heard it a few minnows ago.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=KJV


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

stevekozak said:


> Do you drink from the communal chalice at Mass? If not why not?


I go to a traditional Latin Mass and the Precious Blood isn't offered to communicants there.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

stevekozak said:


> Do you drink from the communal chalice at Mass? If not why not?


I have served the wine, and put the money in the safe, since the Church didn't trust The Word to protect the $$$

John 1 , precedes Genesis:vs_rocking_banana:


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

AquaHull said:


> I have served the wine, and put the money in the safe, since the Church didn't trust The Word to protect the $$$


Oooh, Thomas. Take it easy there. Whoa.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

stevekozak said:


> Do you drink from the communal chalice at Mass? If not why not?


I drank the leftovers:vs_cool:


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Annie said:


> Oooh, Thomas. Take it easy there. Whoa.


Sorry, but prove me wrong.

There is established Catholic doctrine that the "Father" shall protect his flock.

Grandpa & Grandma were going to be Father and Nun, they had 10 kids. 
His 2 sisters, Kevin and Theresa were Nuns.

I was an Usher at a Catholic Church in my AO.

Won't be hard to find

The weekly offering had to be put in a safe, behind a door with a combo.

I asked to carry , since I had a couple grand on me. They said GOD would protect me.

Then, Annie, why the locks on the doors and the safe for the weekly Tithe???? @Annie


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> Denton, as usual you have taken me to the brink. I am fully 95% with you.
> 
> There is one nagging little line of dialog that I cannot ignore. Whether it be the Bible or the last five minutes of the movie "The Ten Commandments," there is the concept of handing down The Word of God to the next generation. As Moses goes off to Moab to meet with his Creator, the entire written word is handed to Joshua (John Derek). Joshua doesn't demean or worship Moses, he seeks to ascertain the direction of God and those who follow him.
> 
> ...


I separated a Burning Bush into 5 last year.

You mean there are IDOLS at a Catholic Church?

Prove it.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

AquaHull said:


> Sorry, but prove me wrong.
> 
> There is established Catholic doctrine that the "Father" shall protect his flock.
> 
> ...


I dunno. No idea...Maybe you live in a state where you can't carry legally? Or else your priest is a flaming liberal? Maybe that's why? Stuff gets stolen in churches all the time.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Exactly


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

I live in MeatChicken , what Amish call non egg laying hens in Michigan

Bottom line is that the priests don't follow the a
Catholic doctrine, oar they follow a different onezzzz/

confuser is messin up while posting in this thread


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Annie said:


> Mr Slippy, I've never been to one confession that wasn't Our Lord's mercy through the words of the priest. Catholics are body and blood people. We're spiritual too, *but for us, we want to hear Jesus say the words, "I absolve you" through the voice of the priest.* For you, it's a scandal. For us living it, it's a beautiful thing.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> [21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.


Annie;

Sounds to me like Catholics still don't get the fact that when Jesus died on the Cross, He became the atonement for our sins forever. Jesus' final words, "IT IS FINISHED" means that the entire work of redemption by The Holy Spirit had been brought to completion.

From that point forward our Sins were forgiven.

...at the Crucifixion the moment that Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED". "The curtain that blocked the entrance to the most holy place was split from top to bottom"...to me, that signifies that the way into God's presence was now open to all and from that point forward, IF man accepts the fact that Jesus is the way to heaven, man did not need a church employee (Priest) to gain entrance...or to have to confess his sins to.

Hope this helps...

Now, on to this Purgatory nonsense... :vs_smile:


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

This thread is a good example of why I shun organized religion.

Each one tells its members "Believe as we tell you, or you are going to hell."

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I believe in what He instructed His followers.
I will respectfully leave y'all to your own dogma.

This is mine: (and I think you will see some biblical principles here)

The 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous
1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I "practice these principles" - the 12 Steps, in every part of my daily life.

Jesus and the Father are a central part of my life.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

RPD, I shall remember you to The Lord today. I have my own demons, and I pray to Christ daily.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Slippy said:


> Annie;
> 
> Sounds to me like Catholics still don't get the fact that when Jesus died on the Cross, He became the atonement for our sins forever. Jesus' final words, "IT IS FINISHED" means that the entire work of redemption by The Holy Spirit had been brought to completion.
> 
> From that point forward our Sins were forgiven.


Yes, Christ's salvific work on the cross is the center point of history; everything pointed forward and now points back to that. It's like this:

----------------------->+++<-----------------------That's where we are at the Mass. On Calvary at the one Sacrifice. The One Holy Sacrifice on the altar.

On Calvary, There's Our Lord, there's Didymus, and there's the bad thief. Everyone of us is either gonna be like the good or the bad thief. But we ain't dead yet. We're still stuck in time. It's not finished for us until we die. When that happens, when time ends for us, our intellect and will are gonna be locked; set in stone. No going back. Until then, what we do really matters. It ain't finished for us.



> ...at the Crucifixion the moment that Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED". "The curtain that blocked the entrance to the most holy place was split from top to bottom"...to me, that signifies that the way into God's presence was now open to all and from that point forward, IF man accepts the fact that Jesus is the way to heaven,


I'm with you here.



> man did not need a church employee (Priest) to gain entrance...or to have to confess his sins to.


This is where you lost me. The priest is way more than a 'church employee', Maybe that's what you have at your church, but a priest is way more than that.



> Hope this helps...


Thanks, Slippy.



> Now, on to this Purgatory nonsense... :vs_smile:c


Won't be nonsense when you get there Slip! :tango_face_wink:


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> This thread is a good example of why I shun organized religion.
> 
> Each one tells its members "Believe as we tell you, or you are going to hell."
> 
> ...


I really admire your commitment to AA. My Dad was in this organization until he passed away. I remember going to a meeting with him on his 25th anniversary at AA.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I'm unsure about Purgatory. Oh, if it exists you can bet I'll be the one welcoming you to enter...

But somewhere in the Bible (and Annie might know) we are told we will move "_from a tent to a house, and from the house to a mansion_." Sounds like a way-station of sorts. Maybe just an academy for errant humans so they don't tweak the Seraphim--not that I would--perhaps.

I know there's a rumor of fire, like Purgatory is a "small hell." But if it is indeed a way-station to Heaven, what's really wrong with a panorama of our own shortcomings? I'll be elated to see Christ, but I will also apologize. Perhaps that's it.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> RPD, I shall remember you to The Lord today. I have my own demons, and I pray to Christ daily.


Thanks.
But the only demons I have today are faded remnants of my service to our country.

Thanks to the 12 Steps, the fellowship of AA, and the Grace of God, I have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Thanks. But the only demons I have today are faded remnants of my service to our country.


I won't forget. I have lived as a free man my entire life. As a boomer, I saw your avatar and instantly recognized "those colored stripes" and knew what they were and what they meant. You did the tour I was too busy for, and at that point in life I would have never made it out. Without putting too fine a point on it, I'm alive today because some ground-pounder gave every ounce he had.

Welcome home, Daddy.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

My Pa wanted to enlist me in '72. Recruiter said I was too young


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> I won't forget. I have lived as a free man my entire life. As a boomer, I saw your avatar and instantly recognized "those colored stripes" and knew what they were and what they meant. You did the tour I was too busy for, and at that point in life I would have never made it out. Without putting too fine a point on it, I'm alive today because some ground-pounder gave every ounce he had.
> 
> Welcome home, Daddy.


I did not beat the bush, I was in a combat support unit on an infantry base camp a few miles south of the DMZ. Indian Country.
My Army brigade was on loan to the Marines, coming under command and control of the 3rd Marine Division.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

RPD, there is a saving that applies, "They also serve who only stand and wait."

I did nothing. I watched the war on TV, chased co-eds, wore out motorcycles and then got a white collar job while the veterans returned under a cloud. So honestly, my friend, who actually served their country? I think you did yourself and your country proud.


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## Demitri.14 (Nov 21, 2018)

I may be wrong, but many of the devout Catholics I know seem to worship the pope and the Virgin Mary more than Christ. If this is indicative of the religion, then they are worshiping false gods and that is the devils work.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

After having been a Catholic, I can assure you that they do not worship the religious staff. I found that they respected them, and often sought them out for confusing elements of scripture.

When I became SDA, I went to Bible classes, and found the same intense and revealing study done by the laity. Sure, I was respectful of our minister, and we even became friends. My home was one such place where he could let his hair down.

If I was an outsider I guess I could find it odd that the Catholic religious staff had titles, special clothing and unique rituals. But they still have feet of clay.


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