# The Last Few Weeks - Indications of Near Future?



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Interesting video. I usually skip right by videos this long but I watched it without even getting up for my second glass of caffeine.
A compelling argument that the Rapture is near, after which the Time of Jacob's Trouble will begin.
Hang on to your hats!


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Denton, please excuse the interruption to the thread, but is there a podcast this week?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

sideKahr said:


> Denton, please excuse the interruption to the thread, but is there a podcast this week?


We're going to try and do it, tonight. Our schedules have been working against each other.

I apologize for the delay!


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## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

Denton said:


> Interesting video.


Thanks for sharing... you're right, very interesting!

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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

We do not know the time, no man does. The signs have always been there and will be until it happens. When will it happen anytime .


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

1948 did not start ANY clock running... nothing can be timed to that event.. 
----------------------- 
events to happen

Confirmed Covenant - this starts the 70th week of Daniel
3.5 years later Abomination that makes desolate (IE Man of sin stands in the holy place)

Rapture / catching away shall not happen until AFTER the Abomination

READ Matthew 24.. Jesus give us the events in the order they happen (compare to Dan 9, Rev 6 & 7)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And* many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
*
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

*15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand*

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

*21 For then shall be great tribulation,* such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

*29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, *and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 *And then shall appear* the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and *they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.*


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## NewRiverGeorge (Jan 2, 2018)

Maine-Marine said:


> 1948 did not start ANY clock running... nothing can be timed to that event..
> -----------------------
> events to happen
> 
> ...


My question is, assuming the holy place in verse 15 is the temple...Does the temple have to be completed ?


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Maine-Marine said:


> 1948 did not start ANY clock running... nothing can be timed to that event..
> -----------------------
> events to happen
> 
> ...


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

allen530 said:


> Maine-Marine said:
> 
> 
> > 1948 did not start ANY clock running... nothing can be timed to that event..
> ...


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

NewRiverGeorge said:


> My question is, assuming the holy place in verse 15 is the temple...Does the temple have to be completed ?


I believe it will be completed.

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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> Interesting video. I usually skip right by videos this long but I watched it without even getting up for my second glass of caffeine.
> A compelling argument that the Rapture is near, after which the Time of Jacob's Trouble will begin.
> Hang on to your hats!


Well I just listened to the first 10 minutes or so and see he doesn't understand what Jesus or the scriptures say about the end. The church will not escape the tribulation sounds hopeful but it is not true. The church is not a spotless bride it is a terrible mess. God will use the 31/2 year tribulation and Satan to purify his children some will fall some will be refined.Like this man said don't listen to me or him but search the scriptures on your own and pray for the Holy Spirits guidance and understanding.Don't waste 1:17 minutes listening to this or better yet listen then search and see if it is true or not.

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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

I dunno. I may not know much, but I know Him. +++


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> Well I just listened to the first 10 minutes or so and see he doesn't understand what Jesus or the scriptures say about the end. The church will not escape the tribulation sounds hopeful but it is not true. The church is not a spotless bride it is a terrible mess. God will use the 31/2 year tribulation and Satan to purify his children some will fall some will be refined.Like this man said don't listen to me or him but search the scriptures on your own and pray for the Holy Spirits guidance and understanding.Don't waste 1:17 minutes listening to this or better yet listen then search and see if it is true or not.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really? As he points out, the Church is not mentioned during Jacob's Trouble. Also, you'll see in 1st Thessalonians where the Holy Spirit is lifted from Earth. When the Holy Spirit leaves, we must leave, too.
This time is not for us. It is for bringing the Jews to the truth of Jesus and it is for bringing judgement to those who preferred the Beast over Jesus.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

allen530 said:


> Well I just listened to the first 10 minutes or so and see he doesn't understand what Jesus or the scriptures say about the end. The church will not escape the tribulation sounds hopeful but it is not true. The church is not a spotless bride it is a terrible mess. God will use the 31/2 year tribulation and Satan to purify his children some will fall some will be refined.Like this man said don't listen to me or him but search the scriptures on your own and pray for the Holy Spirits guidance and understanding.Don't waste 1:17 minutes listening to this or better yet listen then search and see if it is true or not.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So Allen ..... do you adhere to mid or post tribber interpretations?


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

A Watchman said:


> So Allen ..... do you adhere to mid or post tribber interpretations?


Post after the 7th trumpet.

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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

NewRiverGeorge said:


> My question is, assuming the holy place in verse 15 is the temple...Does the temple have to be completed ?


In a quick one word answer: yes. Yes, it most assuredly does have to be completed, . . . otherwise there is no "holy place" to be defiled as stated by Jesus and by Daniel.

Rapture timing is first generalized by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 & 17:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, *and with the trump of God:* and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Later on in 1 Corinthians 15:52 the rapture of the church is further detailed as not only being accompanied by the sound of "A" trumpet, . . . but by the LAST TRUMPET:

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, *at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,* and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Then, . . . to tie it all together and put icing on the "Rapture" cake, . . . John erases any doubt (and destroys any possibility of a rapture at any other time with this one verse):

Revelation 11:15 And the *seventh angel sounded;* and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Earlier in this same chapter, . . . John is told by the angel to measure the "temple of God" which determines for us that the temple MUST BE BUILT.

AND, . . . John puts the nail into the coffin of of pre-trib and/or mid-trib scenarios since there are two Christian prophets who will badger the anti-Christ until he kills them. With their death and ascention into heaven, . . . VOILA, . . . final trumpet, Eastern sky opens, Jesus at 186,000 miles per second (as the lightning shineth from the east unto the west) arrives, . . . dead in Christ rise first, . . . those alive remain, . . . and the EOTWAWKI occurs.
_____________

It is not really hard to see we are approaching this era of time, . . . begin to hold your breath when the temple is completed, . . . and the daily sacrifice begins anew in Jerusalem.

Just hope it happens before I become worm food.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Dwight55 I agree with everything you said but for me Jesus kills the pre or mid rapture in Matthew 24:29 when he said immediately AFTER the tribulation.


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> Really? As he points out, the Church is not mentioned during Jacob's Trouble. Also, you'll see in 1st Thessalonians where the Holy Spirit is lifted from Earth. When the Holy Spirit leaves, we must leave, too.
> This time is not for us. It is for bringing the Jews to the truth of Jesus and it is for bringing judgement to those who preferred the Beast over Jesus.


Where in 1Thessalonions does it say the Holy Spirit is lifted from the earth before the tribulation?

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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> Really? As he points out, the Church is not mentioned during Jacob's Trouble. Also, you'll see in 1st Thessalonians where the Holy Spirit is lifted from Earth. When the Holy Spirit leaves, we must leave, too.
> This time is not for us. It is for bringing the Jews to the truth of Jesus and it is for bringing judgement to those who preferred the Beast over Jesus.


Read Revalations 20:4,5 and explain how there is a resurrection before this one where John sees those who were beheaded and those who didn't take the mark and said this is the first resurrection. How do you have a first before a first?

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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> Where in 1Thessalonions does it say the Holy Spirit is lifted from the earth before the tribulation?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'll find it, I'm sure. Better if you find it instead of me telling you. It'll be a journey!


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> You'll find it, I'm sure. Better if you find it instead of me telling you. It'll be a journey!


I did read it. Didn't find anything about a pretrib rapture. Which scripture did you read it in?

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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> I did read it. Didn't find anything about a pretrib rapture. Which scripture did you read it in?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry. My brain said one thing and my fingers typed what they wanted to type. Try 2nd.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Denton said:


> I'm sorry. My brain said one thing and my fingers typed what they wanted to type. Try 2nd.


allen .... He is referring you to 2nd Thessalonians.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

allen530 said:


> Dwight55 I agree with everything you said but for me Jesus kills the pre or mid rapture in Matthew 24:29 when he said immediately AFTER the tribulation.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He said after the tribulation *of those days* .... your assumption that this statement is referring to the period called The Great Tribulation.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

A Watchman said:


> allen .... He is referring you to 2nd Thessalonians.


Sorry. Seems I am not here, today.


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

A Watchman said:


> He said after the tribulation *of those days* .... your assumption that this statement is referring to the period called The Great Tribulation.


That's right

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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

A Watchman said:


> allen .... He is referring you to 2nd Thessalonians.


2thessolonians 2 read it many times nothing about pretrib rapture. Verses 1-4 Paul says two things must happen before Jesus returns. One is a great apostasy the second the anti-Christ will set on the throne and claim he is god.Verse 7 says he who restrains will be taken out of the way not he will leave at the rapture with the church. I don't know of any scripture that says the Holy Spirit is refraining the devil I may be wrong but I see Michael the arch angel standing against him in scripture. Michael casts the devil out of heaven Revalations 12 I think. So I wander if Michael is the restrained if there is scripture that says the Holy Spirit is please share them.

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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> 2thessolonians 2 read it many times nothing about pretrib rapture. Verses 1-4 Paul says two things must happen before Jesus returns. One is a great apostasy the second the anti-Christ will set on the throne and claim he is god.Verse 7 says he who restrains will be taken out of the way not he will leave at the rapture with the church. I don't know of any scripture that says the Holy Spirit is refraining the devil I may be wrong but I see Michael the arch angel standing against him in scripture. Michael casts the devil out of heaven Revalations 12 I think. So I wander if Michael is the restrained if there is scripture that says the Holy Spirit is please share them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As you can imagine, I don't see it as you do. Not at all.

So, you don't see the events of the last few weeks as an indication we are coming nearer to the time we've been expecting? The end of the time of the Gentiles and the time time God focuses on the Jews as well as bringing judgement on the World?


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> As you can imagine, I don't see it as you do. Not at all.
> 
> So, you don't see the events of the last few weeks as an indication we are coming nearer to the time we've been expecting? The end of the time of the Gentiles and the time time God focuses on the Jews as well as bringing judgement on the World?


I definitely believe the end is near and prophecy is being and will be fulfilled. I believe what Gods word says not what mans interpretation is. I don't believe the church will escape the tribulation. One verse that says the church will be gone where is it? And I'm a southern baptist.

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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> As you can imagine, I don't see it as you do. Not at all.
> 
> So, you don't see the events of the last few weeks as an indication we are coming nearer to the time we've been expecting? The end of the time of the Gentiles and the time time God focuses on the Jews as well as bringing judgement on the World?


Brother Denton how do you explain the verses I've shared?

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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> I definitely believe the end is near and prophecy is being and will be fulfilled. I believe what Gods word says not what mans interpretation is. I don't believe the church will escape the tribulation. One verse that says the church will be gone where is it? And I'm a southern baptist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yet, you are relying on an "interpretation," too.

Catch up with you, later. Have to head out the door for work in three minutes.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

NewRiverGeorge said:


> My question is, assuming the holy place in verse 15 is the temple...Does the temple have to be completed ?


Yes, the Temple must be complete, and up and running, FOR the Abomination Of Desolation to take place there. {The Abomination: Some people think that a pig will be sacrificed, by the Anti-Christ & False Prophet, and that a statue will be erected of the Anti-Christ. The Abomination is some pretty wild stuff.}

But getting back to the Temple, you have seen with your own eyes how fast things can change. When President Trump recognized Jerusalem, he took a giant step in Biblical prophecy.

Now, the Rapture is a separate issue, and no one knows when it will happen. It is a confusing issue.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> ................Now, the Rapture is a separate issue, and no one knows when it will happen. It is a confusing issue.


Some of the confusion is easy to clear up:

1. The "pre-trib" rapture has absolutely no mentioning whatsoever, . . . anywhere, . . . in any literary form, . . . until the mid 1830's in UK. No Biblical historian touched it. It is not found in the "after canons" of scripture. Look it up, . . .

2. The first mention was by a young teen aged girl, . . . who had listened to her pastor about how the world would end soon, many people tortured, earthquakes, floods, . . . the usual fare of scare tactics.

She was understandably seriously scared if not absolutely terrified.

She began one day to "speak in tongues" about a "vision" she had. The vision was that the Christians would not have to go through the tribulation period, . . . that Jesus would come get us first.

She also was her own interpreter (this was before the days of the pentecostal church, . . . per se), . . . and told everyone what she had spoken in the other language that of course no one there understood at all.

3. Her pastor picked up on the idea, . . . began promoting it, . . . it spread like wild fire, due to the depressed state of the UK at the time. It did two things, . . . gave people a new reason to hope for something better, . . . gave the "church" an opportunity to pass the plate again, . . . this time to be able to spread the good news across the globe of the "rapture".

Prior to this, . . . all understanding was riveted to the idea that we would all die in one of three time frame / manners: normal death at the end of our days (naturally, by war, or by accident), . . . we would die IN the tribulation period, . . . or our death would be by being changed at Christ's coming when the 7th trumpet sounded and the world as we know it ended.
_________

I know the above ideas are not "popular", . . . don't engender "safe space" feelings, . . . etc. Unfortunately, . . . it is all too true. Be a Berean, . . . look it up.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

dwight55 said:


> Some of the confusion is easy to clear up:
> 
> 1. The "pre-trib" rapture has absolutely no mentioning whatsoever, . . . anywhere, . . . in any literary form, . . . until the mid 1830's in UK. No Biblical historian touched it. It is not found in the "after canons" of scripture. Look it up, . . .
> 
> ...


I have a book first copyright is 1850 and this preacher said a new demonic doctrine called the great gathering was spreading through the church. Margaret McDonald I believe was tha girls name. And your right it's not confusing at all from Genesis to Revelation there is not one verse that speaks of it.

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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> Yet, you are relying on an "interpretation," too.
> 
> Catch up with you, later. Have to head out the door for work in three minutes.


Your wrong brother Denton I'm not relying on an interpretation lm relying on Gods word. Matthew 24:29After the tribulation, 1 Corinthians 15:52the last trump 2 Thessalonians 2:,4,after the son of perdition sits on the throne Revalations 20: 4,5. These verses do not need interpretation. My 4 year old grandson understands before, last ,after and first. I've given you scripture to back up what I'm saying now which scriptures do you have to back up your beliefs? It is no coincidence you and I are the only ones that have discussed this at length. You have heard truth now seek what you believe and what you have heard here and see what the Holy Spirit reveals to you! Enjoy the journey!

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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

allen530 said:


> Your wrong brother Denton *Simmer down there Hoss!* I'm not relying on an interpretation lm relying on Gods word. Matthew 24:29After the tribulation,*Again, you keep paraphrasing the verse and making your own assumption* 1 Corinthians 15:52the last trump 2 Thessalonians 2:,4,after the son of perdition sits on the throne Revalations 20: 4,5. These verses do not need interpretation. My 4 year old grandson understands before, last ,after and first. I've given you scripture to back up what I'm saying now which scriptures do you have to back up your beliefs? It is no coincidence you and I are the only ones that have discussed this at length *It's indeed no coincidence ... I just haven't got around to responding yet, but will before the evening is up.* You have heard truth now seek what you believe and what you have heard here and see what the Holy Spirit reveals to you! Enjoy the journey!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A Watchman is glad to see the interest in this topic again ... just like old times here at PF, the discussion and food for thought is good and encourages interest, but keep it pleasant Boys and Girls.

I have to attend to some family business now, but expect my "insight" to follow, to explain my inserted comments above.


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

A Watchman said:


> A Watchman is glad to see the interest in this topic again ... just like old times here at PF, the discussion and food for thought is good and encourages interest, but keep it pleasant Boys and Girls.
> 
> I have to attend to some family business now, but expect my "insight" to follow, to explain my inserted comments above.


If I have offended anyone I'm sorry . I don't mean to.Look forward to what you have to say.

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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

allen530 said:


> If I have offended anyone I'm sorry . I don't mean to.Look forward to what you have to say.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey allen, I will respond to this ^^^^ comment first .... Thanks for your kind apology. No one is offended, especially not myself as I like a free for all and even a good old fashion pissin' contest. But the powers that be here, are cautious about "spirited" debates on religious topics. I am just trying to insure that this thread (and others like it) can continue. Again, thank YOU for your concern about others


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

I am not an expert on prophesy nor the word of my God, however I am a lifelong student of not only the entire Bible, but specifically the events in the book of Genesis, prophesy, the biblical timeline, and the events foretold in the book of Revelation.

I have spent countless hours studying, reading, watching presentations, videos etc.. that would accumulate into many, many months if not years, of direct study on the end times. I have seen lengthy presentations that fully supported the beliefs of all the proposed Great tribulation timelines of when the saved leave this world .... For clarity to those that do not follow this line of study, Their are believers that adhere to a Pre Trib doctrine, a Mid Trib doctrine, and a Post Trib doctrine. Note that this period will last for 7 years and begin with a false treaty with Israel, and subsequently the entire world will be deceived by the Antichrist and a False Prophet.

I will begin with answering the original question posed by the OP ... Yes I strongly believe that we are seeing many indicators that tell us where we are in the "Biblical Timeline". I believe the time of The Great Tribulation and the Antichrist is near, very near.

Specifically ... 
I believe that we are seeing the church, who is the Bride Of Christ fall away from the Word and God's will.
I believe that those that have truly accepted God's offering of salvation will "meet in the sky" prior to the 7 year tribulation period.
I believe that the 7 year tribulation period is where God finally addresses his original chosen people, the Jews.

There are two many verses to list them all that I believe support the basis of my conclusion's, however these many scriptures all combine to support the "pre rapture" belief, as well as tie in with the structure of Revelation. This worldview harmonizes many Bible passages throughout the Bible.

With that said, I also prepare and am prepared to enter the period known as "The Great Tribulation", should I have misjudged the intent.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture position cannot be "proven"; however, it is implied by the structure of Revelation, the nature of Tribulation prophecy, and is supported by many scriptures. It is a consistent viewpoint which harmonizes many Bible passages.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

A Watchman said:


> ..............The Pre-Tribulation Rapture position cannot be "proven"; however, it is implied by the structure of Revelation, the nature of Tribulation prophecy, and is supported by many scriptures. It is a consistent viewpoint which harmonizes many Bible passages.


There are undoubtedly many of which you speak, . . . and they do provide a "thorn" in the side of my personal interpretation of the prophecies.

That said, . . . allow me to also state that I hope indeed that I am wrong, . . . that one day my earthly robe will be shed on the way up to a meeting in the air, . . . and I will bypass the "trib" if you will.

But an ol' military man once told me he never ever heard anyone come back from a firefight and declare that from now on he's just not carrying as much ammunition. I adhere judiciously to that premise, . . . and therefore have my prophecy mags all full, . . . topped off, . . . and prepared to endure "to the end". And I even carry a couple spares for my spares.

BUT, . . . only as the saying goes, . . . "time will tell", . . . and the main thing is to know Jesus as our savior, and to be ready, . . . however it happens.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> Your wrong brother Denton I'm not relying on an interpretation lm relying on Gods word. Matthew 24:29After the tribulation, 1 Corinthians 15:52the last trump 2 Thessalonians 2:,4,after the son of perdition sits on the throne Revalations 20: 4,5. These verses do not need interpretation. My 4 year old grandson understands before, last ,after and first. I've given you scripture to back up what I'm saying now which scriptures do you have to back up your beliefs? It is no coincidence you and I are the only ones that have discussed this at length. You have heard truth now seek what you believe and what you have heard here and see what the Holy Spirit reveals to you! Enjoy the journey!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope, I am not wrong. You say I am because you are cock-sure of your position being the only way and the literal way. Any other way, in your mind, is an "interpretation" and wrong.
Regardless of what you think, I am not wrong about yours being an "interpretation," too.

There's no need to "apologize if," as your intent was not an if. "My grandson understands..." is a lear attempt at an offense. The assumption is that anyone who doesn't see it your way isn't as smart as your grandson. I may be slow, but I picked up on that.

There are theologians who hold doctorates who see it one way, and equally schooled theologians who see it the other way. People who can read Greek, Hebrew and all those languages; see what I am saying? Can you? Your grandson, maybe? I sure can't. English takes all I have. Point is, you are relying on others for your interpretation and how you put those interpretations together to paint your picture. Now, unless you can transliterate all the pertinent languages, let's not pretend a four year old can, either.

The fellow in the video doesn't say anything about the Rapture that is earth-breaking. Not now, anyway. It is considered a mystery revealed, and has been revealed for for over a century as you and Dwight already indicated.
Or, maybe it isn't a mystery revealed, as you believe. Either way, I suggest you not be so quick to say someone doesn't understand the Bible as it just might be revealed you aren't as right as you think. After all, if much more educated people can't come to agreement on the topic of the Catching Away, who are you to be so certain? Do you feel you are _more_ filled with the Holy Spirit than others? See what I am saying?

I was raised with the notion of Pre-Trib. Figured I'd throw that out there. Still, that wasn't enough. I wanted to understand the other positions - mid-trib, post-trib, no trib, yadda-yadda.
I read all the books I could get on the subject. After reading the information on the other positions and trying to have as an open mind as this layman could, my position is pretty much the same.

There is one thing that did change, though. I am no longer so arrogant as to say you are wrong and I am beyond a doubt right. You might do well to come to the same conclusion, Brother. People much smarter than us can't come to a concensus so there is no need for us to argue. Especially when the point isn't that, but whether we are coming to a point where things are happening faster, considering the events of the last few weeks.

I hope I 've made sense.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

I am an expert on 2 things however ....

1) If you get the jack booted thug known as Denton, all riled up, we will all pay dearly. Please abstain.
2) If I am right on this Pre Trib thing, YOU have an opportunity to come with me!


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## NewRiverGeorge (Jan 2, 2018)

dwight55 said:


> There are undoubtedly many of which you speak, . . . and they do provide a "thorn" in the side of my personal interpretation of the prophecies.
> 
> That said, . . . allow me to also state that I hope indeed that I am wrong, . . . that one day my earthly robe will be shed on the way up to a meeting in the air, . . . and I will bypass the "trib" if you will.
> 
> ...


Amen Dwight. Out of all the choices and decisions in life, in the end only this matters.


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## Malcom Renolds (Jul 14, 2017)

Jpeg test. double post.


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## Malcom Renolds (Jul 14, 2017)

What if its all really about ISLAM?



Malcom Renolds said:


> View attachment 77154


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

A Watchman said:


> I am an expert on 2 things however ....
> 
> 1) If you get the jack booted thug known as Denton, all riled up, we will all pay dearly. Please abstain.
> 2) If I am right on this Pre Trib thing, YOU have an opportunity to come with me!


I hope that didn't sound as if I am riled; I am not riled. :vs_peace:


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Denton said:


> I hope that didn't sound as if I am riled; I am not riled. :vs_peace:


I know ya well enough, but some of these other wineheads .... well who knows? :vs_laugh:


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

A Watchman said:


> I know ya well enough, but some of these other wineheads .... well who knows? :vs_laugh:


Hey, . . . that leaves me out, . . . we only use Welch's grape juice for communion,........:tango_face_wink::vs_laugh::tango_face_wink:

May God bless,
Dwight


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Before or after tribulation in doesn’t matter lots of people say as long as your heart is right. But it does matter. Revalations 12:9 says the devil deceived the whole world. The anti christ will set up his government and issue a mark to buy sell or trade. Now the church has been told they will not even be here so what will happen when they can’t touch their retirements 401k their stocks and can’t buy food or medicine. This can’t be the mark prophesied in Revelations because Jesus hasn’t came raptured them yet. So they line up to get their retirements 401k stocks food and water by accepting the mark. Jesus said even the elect would be deceived if possible. It’s not that I’m right everybody else is wrong. It’s be prepared for when it all happens by drawing closer and trusting Jesus through till the end . Our adversary the devil is seeking whom he may devour.



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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> Before or after tribulation in doesn't matter lots of people say as long as your heart is right. But it does matter. Revalations 12:9 says the devil deceived the whole world. The anti christ will set up his government and issue a mark to buy sell or trade. Now the church has been told they will not even be here so what will happen when they can't touch their retirements 401k their stocks and can't buy food or medicine. This can't be the mark prophesied in Revelations because Jesus hasn't came raptured them yet. So they line up to get their retirements 401k stocks food and water by accepting the mark. Jesus said even the elect would be deceived if possible. It's not that I'm right everybody else is wrong. It's be prepared for when it all happens by drawing closer and trusting Jesus through till the end . Our adversary the devil is seeking whom he may devour.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Revelation, not Revelations.
I believe those who take the Mark will know they are siding with the Beast. 
Ye, even the Elect (The Jews) will be deceived, if possible. Will some? Sure. At the same time, will there be Gentiles who look around and say, "Uh-Oh! I should have listened to Allen when he tried to share the Gospel with me! Well guess what; I now believe and am NOT going to take the Mark. They can behead me if that's what it takes!"

Now, you might think there's a reason for the Church to go through the Jacob's Trouble. I can't see it. Not because I am looking for a "safe space" as Dwight suggested, but because it doesn't fit the reason for this particular time as I already outlined. The question is, are the recent events indicating the end of the Time of the Gentiles is fullfilled and the next time begins?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> Hey, . . . that leaves me out, . . . we only use Welch's grape juice for communion,........:tango_face_wink::vs_laugh::tango_face_wink:
> 
> May God bless,
> Dwight


See there? We protect those who are alcoholics and don't dare take a drop of alcohol, but what about those of us who have a strong addiction to sugar? Hmmmm? Sugar-Head Lives Matter!! :tango_face_smile:


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Erdogan is again calling for the Islamic world to unite against Israel. In the recent past, he called for the Muslim world to unite and destroy Israel.
Turkey is due north of Israel, by the way:
PressTV-Turkey urges Islamic world to unite against Israel


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> Revelation, not Revelations.
> I believe those who take the Mark will know they are siding with the Beast.
> Ye, even the Elect (The Jews) will be deceived, if possible. Will some? Sure. At the same time, will there be Gentiles who look around and say, "Uh-Oh! I should have listened to Allen when he tried to share the Gospel with me! Well guess what; I now believe and am NOT going to take the Mark. They can behead me if that's what it takes!"
> 
> Now, you might think there's a reason for the Church to go through the Jacob's Trouble. I can't see it. Not because I am looking for a "safe space" as Dwight suggested, but because it doesn't fit the reason for this particular time as I already outlined. The question is, are the recent events indicating the end of the Time of the Gentiles is fullfilled and the next time begins?


I do believe bible prophecy is being fulfilled and the end is near. I to was raised and taught pre-trib rapture but never could find scriptures to verify it. So I'll ask for the third time I think for scriptures to support your beliefs.

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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> I do believe bible prophecy is being fulfilled and the end is near. I to was raised and taught pre-trib rapture but never could find scriptures to verify it. So I'll ask for the third time I think for scriptures to support your beliefs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They have been offered. You are wanting me to spoon feed you? To be honest, I don't think that is what you want. I think you are wanting to spend hours going tit for tat, arguing understandings of verses and chapters of the Bible. I don't have time for that. I have less than an hour before going to work. If you really wanted to learn, you wouldn't come to me. You'd go and read what theologians with sheepskins on their walls say about it.
From what I've seen in this thread, I see you saying, "Yeah, I will give you a cursory nod at the topic of the thread but I prefer to get bogged down in the doctrinal weeds relating to the Catching Away."


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Denton said:


> They have been offered. You are wanting me to spoon feed you? To be honest, I don't think that is what you want. I think you are wanting to spend hours going tit for tat, arguing understandings of verses and chapters of the Bible. I don't have time for that. I have less than an hour before going to work. If you really wanted to learn, you wouldn't come to me. You'd go and read what theologians with sheepskins on their walls say about it.
> From what I've seen in this thread, I see you saying, "Yeah, I will give you a cursory nod at the topic of the thread but I prefer to get bogged down in the doctrinal weeds relating to the Catching Away."


Instead of listening to theologians I think I'll just listen to Jesus Paul and John. I hope you have a safe and blessed day at work. Take care.

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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

allen530 said:


> Instead of listening to theologians I think I'll just listen to Jesus Paul and John. I hope you have a safe and blessed day at work. Take care.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think I will, too.

By the way, what does Thou Shalt Not Kill mean? Yes, I might be making a bit of a point.


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## Malcom Renolds (Jul 14, 2017)

Denton said:


> I think I will, too.
> 
> By the way, what does Thou Shalt Not Kill mean? Yes, I might be making a bit of a point.


I thought it was Murder.

It means GOD gave Moses the original Non Aggression Principle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Malcom Renolds said:


> I thought it was Murder.
> 
> It means GOD gave Moses the original Non Aggression Principle.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle


You'd be correct. Transliteration is not "kill" but means murder. Point is, merely reading the Ten Commandments might lead one to believe one is not to defend one's self or others. It could lead one to believe a serviceman is committing a sin by serving. Heck, some even try to suggest eating a steak is a sin because the cow was killed.


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## Malcom Renolds (Jul 14, 2017)

"The opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem is not the end; it is a means," Rabbi Weiss told Breaking Israel News. "It is one step in the Geula process that is moving towards the Temple, which must, by necessity, involve all the nations and even the Temple is merely a means for sanctifying all of creation."

"The end of this process is known: geula (redemption). Since President Trump has taken steps that bring the world closer to geula, he has succeeded where others have failed. No other president has brought the embassy to Jerusalem so Trump has had unexpected success. His greatest step in this process was canceling the deal with Iran which, at its very core, was aimed at destroying Jerusalem."

https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/107721/an-end-of-days-guide-to-the-embassy-move/

So some are going full speed ahead with the, what is it, 3rd temple.
We just wait for the Dome of the Rock to "go down" next?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Malcom Renolds said:


> "The opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem is not the end; it is a means," Rabbi Weiss told Breaking Israel News. "It is one step in the Geula process that is moving towards the Temple, which must, by necessity, involve all the nations and even the Temple is merely a means for sanctifying all of creation."
> 
> "The end of this process is known: geula (redemption). Since President Trump has taken steps that bring the world closer to geula, he has succeeded where others have failed. No other president has brought the embassy to Jerusalem so Trump has had unexpected success. His greatest step in this process was canceling the deal with Iran which, at its very core, was aimed at destroying Jerusalem."
> 
> ...


There are those who say the Dome of the Rock doesn't have to go down as it isn't in the way.

Either way, Denton is out. Got to head off to work. Y'all have a great day!


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## Malcom Renolds (Jul 14, 2017)

Denton said:


> There are those who say the Dome of the Rock doesn't have to go down as it isn't in the way.
> 
> Either way, Denton is out. Got to head off to work. Y'all have a great day!





> Until now Jewish tradition has assumed that destruction of the Dome of the Rock was a precondition for the building of the third and last Temple. However, in an article that appeared in 2007 in Tehumin, an influential journal of Jewish law, Frankel, a young scholar, presented a different option. His main argument is that Jewish doctrine regarding the rebuilding of the Temple emphasizes the role of a prophet. This prophet would have extraordinary authority, including the discretion to specify the Temple's precise location, regardless of any diverging Jewish traditions. Frankel considers the scenario of a holy revelation given to an authentic prophet that the Temple be rebuilt on the current or an extended Temple Mount in peaceful proximity to the dome and other houses of prayer


https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...-be-built-without-destroying-Dome-of-the-Rock

Yeah, thats a pretty new and "CONVENIENT" Idea religiously speaking.


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

Malcom Renolds said:


> "The opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem is not the end; it is a means," Rabbi Weiss told Breaking Israel News. "It is one step in the Geula process that is moving towards the Temple, which must, by necessity, involve all the nations and even the Temple is merely a means for sanctifying all of creation."
> 
> "The end of this process is known: geula (redemption). Since President Trump has taken steps that bring the world closer to geula, he has succeeded where others have failed. No other president has brought the embassy to Jerusalem so Trump has had unexpected success. His greatest step in this process was canceling the deal with Iran which, at its very core, was aimed at destroying Jerusalem."
> 
> ...


So when will the temple be built before or after 7 year covenant is signed? What is yalls opinion?

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## Malcom Renolds (Jul 14, 2017)

After.
Mahdi.
Peace Treaty.
Dome "Moved".
Treaty Broken.
Temple Begins Being Built.


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## NewRiverGeorge (Jan 2, 2018)

Just my opinion....

I believe the church is out before the tribulation. Here is why I believe that. If I am correct in my way of thinking, Revelation chapter 6 is when it (tribulation) kicks off. That is when the seals begin to be opened by the Lamb. In Chapter 5, there are verses of note that makes me believe the church has been raptured out...


Revelation 5 King James Version (KJV)
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Who else would "they" be? "They" are singing about being redeemed? IMHO, this has to be the raptured church. Only they can sing of being redeemed and then reigning on earth (millennial reign). "They" can't be angels for two reasons...1) They are created beings and cannot choose salvation and 2) In verse 11, Angels are mentioned. If the Angels were the same "they" in the previous verses, they would still be referred to as "they".

Revelation 5 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

To sum it up, I don't think Christ would allow his beloved bride, whom he bled and died for, to suffer the judgment that I feel is reserved for the Jews who did not receive Him. Again, it's just MY opinion and it's not posted here to inflame or anger anyone. If it has, please remember this is just one country boy's opinion. But to reiterate, I urge each of you to search your heart and decide whether you will accept or reject him.

May God bless you all,

NRG


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

NewRiverGeorge said:


> Just my opinion....
> 
> I believe the church is out before the tribulation. Here is why I believe that. If I am correct in my way of thinking, Revelation chapter 6 is when it (tribulation) kicks off. That is when the seals begin to be opened by the Lamb. In Chapter 5, there are verses of note that makes me believe the church has been raptured out...
> 
> ...


Who else would they be?
I believe these are the millions and millions and tens of millions of babies who were aborted that no one cared about or gave them a burial or are even thought of.They were not even considered to be a person or worth living but Our savior redeems them and they will one day reign on the earth! Hallelujah to the king!

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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Just my 2 cents here.

This reminds me of another board where they are debating EMP's. Some say the effects will be minimal others claim total devastation. The fact is no one knows for sure.

Just so everyone knows, I'm a post tribber. I'll explain that in a minute.

I've heard both sides of this discussion. I read the Bible myself. People talk about interpretation and reading the scripture. The fact is that the Bible has been interpreted many times by numerous people. Mark is a good example. Most manuscripts of Mark ended at 16:8 BUT most Bibles have this inserted there "[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9-20.]" where it picks up at verses 9-20.

In the beginning scribes copied the different books and oft times had to translate. Most languages don't translate word for word very well. A word in one language may mean an entire phrase in another. There are also available now any number of different Bibles using different words and meanings. Personally I use the NIV version. But I know the KJV and the TLB, among others translate slightly differently.

Case in point. 1 Samuel 5:9

*NIV* But after they had moved it, the Lord's hand was against that city, throwing it into a great panic. He afflicted the people of the city, both young and old, with an outbreak of tumors

*KJV* And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the Lord was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts.

*TLB* But when the Ark arrived at Gath, the Lord began destroying its people, young and old, with the plague, and there was a great panic.

Now I'll explain. See, I really do hope the pre-tribbers are right. BUT, what if they are wrong. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Malcom Renolds said:


> After.
> Mahdi.
> Peace Treaty.
> Dome "Moved".
> ...


I will peacefully disagree...........

According to the ET scenario, . . . 7 year peace agreement signed w/Israel (presumably rest of the world as well)

In the middle of the 7 years, . . . agreement broken, . . . Holy Place defiled, . . . daily sacrifice stopped.

The temple has to be built before the breaking of the covenant. Holy Place cannot be defiled if it has not been built, . . . it is part of the temple itself.

This is outlined absolutely in Rev 11 when the two prophets are listed as having a 3 1/2 year ministry, . . . the same time the beast has left, . . . then EOTWAWKI occurs.

AND, . . . the dome does not have to be moved, . . . there is almost 600 ft between the dome and the Al Aqsa mosque, . . . OR, . . . on the north side of the dome is an area about 600 by 750 feet, . . . easily enough for a Jewish temple.
____________________________

The only thing that we have ALL left out in our scenarios is the reason this website exists. The USA will by then be the "time of the gentiles" that will have ended.

The beast has assumed power, . . . 2 Thessalonians has been fulfilled:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (KJV) 
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

He cannot assume that power unless Israel voluntarily allows him to, . . . or is militarily forced to allow it, . . . the first "ain't gonna happen" so the second must be the answer, . . . and that could only happen if the US turned our backs on Israel (God forbid that from ever happening), . . . or we are somehow reduced to being unable to properly respond to Israel's needs.

The fact that the US is not anywhere in the ET is scary, . . . the reason we should "prep", . . .

Anyway, . . . just some food for thought.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

NewRiverGeorge said:


> Just my opinion....
> I believe the church is out before the tribulation. Here is why I believe that. If I am correct in my way of thinking, Revelation chapter 6 is when it (tribulation) kicks off. That is when the seals begin to be opened by the Lamb. In Chapter 5, there are verses of note that makes me believe the church has been raptured out...


Not meaning to berate you or belittle you, . . . but how do you then reconcile Paul saying in 1 Thess that at the sounding of the trumpet of God, he, if he were still alive and well would be changed, go up to meet the Lord in the air and forever be with him, . . .

This passage is then further defined in 1 Cor 15 as not only the trump of God, . . . but specifically, the LAST trump.

Pretty tough to be raptured out before the first seal, . . . then somehow magically reincarnated so he could be here for the last trumpet to be sounded.

Just food for thought...............

May God bless,
Dwight


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## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

dwight55 said:


> The fact that the US is not anywhere in the ET is scary, . . . the reason we should "prep", . . .


Scary indeed... Can remember the sick feeling I had when first hearing this along time ago. Still get the same sick feeling when hearing it again today.

This has been a very interesting thread... Thanks to everyone for your input!

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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

NewRiverGeorge said:


> Just my opinion....
> 
> I believe the church is out before the tribulation. Here is why I believe that. If I am correct in my way of thinking, Revelation chapter 6 is when it (tribulation) kicks off. That is when the seals begin to be opened by the Lamb. In Chapter 5, there are verses of note that makes me believe the church has been raptured out...
> 
> ...


Country Boy, (me too), that time is for the juddgment of the rest of the world but not the Jews. The Jews will realize who Jesus is and will come to Him. They aren't being judged, they are being led to Jesus. It's going to be great! I have friends in Israel for whom I pray. They will be saved! Praise our Savior!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> Not meaning to berate you or belittle you, . . . but how do you then reconcile Paul saying in 1 Thess that at the sounding of the trumpet of God, he, if he were still alive and well would be changed, go up to meet the Lord in the air and forever be with him, . . .
> 
> This passage is then further defined in 1 Cor 15 as not only the trump of God, . . . but specifically, the LAST trump.
> 
> ...


It's in the Book.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> The fact that the US is not anywhere in the ET is scary, . . . the reason we should "prep", . . .


I have acknowledged this, and planned accordingly.


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

MikeTango said:


> Scary indeed... Can remember the sick feeling I had when first hearing this along time ago. Still get the same sick feeling when hearing it again today.
> 
> This has been a very interesting thread... Thanks to everyone for your input!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Yes it can be scary but we have to trust Jesus that he will get us through or if we're killed during it we will reign one day with him. Look at the prophets,disciples ,apostles and the son of God they were persecuted. But at the end we are with Jesus forever. And to be with him is what we hope for and what will be accomplished by Jesus.

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## Malcom Renolds (Jul 14, 2017)

> The fact that the US is not anywhere in the ET is scary, . . . the reason we should "prep", . . .


Is China?
ANY of the Western Hemisphere?

I think Prophesy has already "occurred"
They writings of Men 100 years after the death of Jesus. Islam doesn't come onto the scene until 500 years later.
The Mark, The Kingdoms, all this IS the prophesy of "John" and his Revelation.

edit: There isnt a lot of Money in History Books.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

NewRiverGeorge said:


> My question is, assuming the holy place in verse 15 is the temple...Does the temple have to be completed ?


Statue of Saint Peter could fufill verse 15

http://www.reformation.org/abomination-of-desolation.html

Speaking of Jacobs trouble

Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, 10 of the original 12 Hebrew tribes, which, under the leadership of Joshua, took possession of Canaan, the Promised Land, after the death of Moses. They were named Asher, Dan, Ephraim, Gad, Issachar, Manasseh, Naphtali, Reuben, Simeon, and Zebulun-all sons or grandsons of JACOB. In 930 bc the 10 tribes formed the independent Kingdom of Israel in the north 
http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/where-are-the-lost-ten-tribes-of-israel-today.html
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ten-Lost-Tribes-of-Israel


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> Some of the confusion is easy to clear up:
> 
> 1. The "pre-trib" rapture has absolutely no mentioning whatsoever, . . . anywhere, . . . in any literary form, . . . until the mid 1830's in UK. No Biblical historian touched it. It is not found in the "after canons" of scripture. Look it up, . . .
> 
> ...


I have looked it up, I have been through the Bible 5 or 6 times, and some things cannot be pinned down for certain. Me personally, I think that it will be pre-Trib or early Trib, I don't see Christians going through that ordeal. What I do see is that there will be a lot of people, who become Christians, during the Tribulation. And they will be beheaded for it.


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## allen530 (May 6, 2018)

MisterMills357 said:


> I have looked it up, I have been through the Bible 5 or 6 times, and some things cannot be pinned down for certain. Me personally, I think that it will be pre-Trib or early Trib, I don't see Christians going through that ordeal. What I do see is that there will be a lot of people, who become Christians, during the Tribulation. And they will be beheaded for it.


Revalation 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them BEHEADED for the witness of Jesus, and the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reign with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the First Resurrection. So if the dead in Christ have been resurrected at the rapture before those who are still alive (1 Thessalonians 4:15) how can you have a resurrection before the first resurrection? Something to think about.

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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> I have looked it up, I have been through the Bible 5 or 6 times, and some things cannot be pinned down for certain. Me personally, I think that it will be pre-Trib or early Trib, I don't see Christians going through that ordeal. What I do see is that there will be a lot of people, who become Christians, during the Tribulation. And they will be beheaded for it.


Perhaps you overlooked this section: Romans 10:14-17 (KJV) 
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Umm, . . . there is no faith without hearing.

Umm, . . . there is no hearing without the preaching.

Umm, . . . there is no preaching if there is no preacher.

Umm, . . . and last but not least, . . . there are no preachers IF THEY WERE raptured out early.

Not meaning to pick on your argument, . . . but this particular section of Romans 10 seems pretty explicit that your vision does not seem to be possible, . . . under these guidelines.

AND, . . . just plain old seriously, . . . IF you are placing your faith (and by example as head of your household) the faith, and eternity of all your family, . . . should you not be able to say, . . .

"I definitely believe in the pre-trib rapture, . . . because of this scripture _________, this scripture _________,this scripture _________,this scripture _________, and this scripture _________."???

Can you actually state these unequivocally to your wife, your son, your daughter, . . . and soundly defend your position?

Again, . . . not meaning to back slap you, . . . but that is part of the requirements of being the head of the household, . . . being the head in all things.

I've had this question posed to me, . . . and yes, . . . I can, . . . no doubt, and no hesitation.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> Perhaps you overlooked this section: Romans 10:14-17 (KJV)
> 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
> 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
> 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
> ...


When I look in Revelation 14, I see angels doing mighty things, and the people on Earth can see and hear them. They are proselytizing and preaching.

*6*And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
*7*Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The chapter is filled with angels testifying and preaching to those on Earth; God does not abandon the world, instead he offers them grace. And it is a double damnation to most of them that they reject it.
But there will be preaching of Christ and His salvation, the Devil and Anti-Christ can't stop it from happening. There are also the Two Witnesses, who call down fire, and shut the sky, so that no rain falls (Rev. 11).

There will be a battle going on, and it will be very open to view, and there are people who will be saved during that time too. Recall how people will be beheaded for refusing the Mark of the Beast, in Rev. 20. Evil will be furious during that time, but Christ will bring many to salvation during it.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/11.htm http://biblehub.com/revelation/14.htm http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-1.htm


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Malcom Renolds said:


> Is China?
> ANY of the Western Hemisphere?
> 
> I think Prophesy has already "occurred"
> ...


The Kings of the East, The King of the North, they are mentioned; they are self-evidently China and Asia combined, and The King of the North is Russia, who has many peoples with him. Look at a map, many people are in the Muslim countries about Russia; and in Eastern Europe too. If you don't care to believe that, fine; but America cannot be located in prophecy. There are thousands of missiles pointed at America, and Russia can kill this nation with a single launch.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> .............. If you don't care to believe that, fine; but America cannot be located in prophecy. There are thousands of missiles pointed at America, and Russia can kill this nation with a single launch.


Unfortunately all too true.

There obviously is nothing there to "prove" it, . . . but in the back of my mind, . . . I've always kind of felt that when it came time to take us down, . . . HE would do it himself.

From the way we have stood by and allowed BLM, LGBQT, abortions, fraud from the banks, greed and larceny by politicians, . . . ad infinitim, . . . we have shown that the blessing HE gave us in even allowing us to become "One Nation Under God", . . . was just wasted, squandered, plundered, etc.

HE will get even, . . . (vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord), . . . so I really do look for Him to do it.

The cauldron under Yellowstone could pop, . . . the US, Canada, and Mexico would be blown back into the middle 1800's if it did, . . . population would be halved if not worse, . . .

But anyway, . . . just speculation, . . . no evidence, . . . just know and be sure, . . . it's coming.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> Unfortunately all too true.
> 
> There obviously is nothing there to "prove" it, . . . but in the back of my mind, . . . I've always kind of felt that when it came time to take us down, . . . HE would do it himself.
> 
> ...


We have history of great nations falling overnight, I mean Babylon. Cyrus led the Medo-Persia army into the city, by turning the Euphrates, and draining it away from the city.
America is becoming like Babylon, a rancid stinking place, and unfit to go on living. It is like America can't become wicked enough, and it chases after more and more evil behavior.

http://www.livius.org/sources/content/herodotus/cyrus-takes-babylon/ That is the source, where I read about Cyrus turning the river.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> We have history of great nations falling overnight, I mean Babylon. Cyrus led the Medo-Persia army into the city, by turning the Euphrates, and draining it away from the city.
> America is becoming like Babylon, a rancid stinking place, and unfit to go on living. It is like America can't become wicked enough, and it chases after more and more evil behavior.
> 
> Cyrus takes Babylon - Livius That is the source, where I read about Cyrus turning the river.


That was the same night we get the saying "handwriting on the wall", . . .

Nebuchadnezzar's grandson saw the hand as it wrote on the wall, . . . Daniel was summoned to interpret, . . . Belshazzar chose to not believe the warning that "this night" will be your final night unless you repent.

He didn't, . . . it was, . . . end of story.

Unfortunately, . . . I see this coming as well to the US, . . . a moment in time where the final mistake will be made, . . . undoubtedly like Belshazzar, by our leaders, . . . and it will then be end of story for the USA.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

I can not believe the level of biblical knowledge on this board. I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and perspectives.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> That was the same night we get the saying "handwriting on the wall", . . .
> 
> Nebuchadnezzar's grandson saw the hand as it wrote on the wall, . . . Daniel was summoned to interpret, . . . Belshazzar chose to not believe the warning that "this night" will be your final night unless you repent.
> 
> ...


Balshazzar the king shook in his shoes, and his knees knocked together, but it was too late; his kingdom [Babylon] had been given to Darius the Mede. And he died that very night; because he had crossed a line, that he could not uncross. He drank from the vessels of the Temple, and committed a sacrilege, which was unpardonable. That is my take on it.

And, like you, I see a coming point in America's history, where she will take a fatal turn, and there will be no forgiveness. And her end will be sudden and without remedy. [I hate to say that, but I think that it is true.]


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> The Kings of the East, The King of the North, they are mentioned; they are self-evidently China and Asia combined, and The King of the North is Russia, who has many peoples with him. Look at a map, many people are in the Muslim countries about Russia; and in Eastern Europe too. If you don't care to believe that, fine; but America cannot be located in prophecy. There are thousands of missiles pointed at America, and Russia can kill this nation with a single launch.


I think the king of the North is the EU, or the power behind it-The US or Manessah

How else would the 200 million man army form and march up the Euphrates?


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

AquaHull said:


> I think the king of the North is the EU, or the power behind it-The US or Manessah
> 
> How else would the 200 million man army form and march up the Euphrates?


*12 *And the sixth messenger did pour out his vial upon the great river, the Euphrates, and dried up was its water, that the way of the kings who are from the rising of the sun may be made ready; [Young's Literal Translation (YLT)]

I can't be dogmatic about it, but I think that Europe is going to have its hands full: the kings of the east are going to cross the Euphrates, and Europe can't stop them. No one can, and they will enter the Middle East, and it will hit the fan.

And here is something that you don't read every day: it is the spirits of demons at work.

*13 *and I saw [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs --
*14 *for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; --

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+16:12-14&version=YLT


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

AquaHull said:


> I think the king of the North is the EU, or the power behind it-The US or Manessah
> 
> How else would the 200 million man army form and march up the Euphrates?


The problem with that line of thinking is the question: "Where could a 200 million man army come from?"

A quick search on Google leaves China with the largest standing army, . . . but it is woefully short of the number. Here are the top 5 standing armies as of today:

Country Active military	Reserve military Paramilitary Total

China - 2,183,000 - 510,000 - 660,000	- 3,353,000
India - 1,395,100 - 2,142,800 - 1,403,700	- 4,941,600
United States -	1,347,300 - 865,050 - 14,850	- 2,227,200
North Korea - 1,190,000 - 6,300,000 - 189,000	- 7,679,000
Russia -	1,013,000 - 2,500,000 - 710,000	- 4,223,000

BUT, . . . when we go from the idea of "Standing, fully equipped, armed forces", . . . and degenerate down to "bodies" that can be thrown into the fray, . . . the numbers look a bit different.

This is another chart from Google, . . . in the picture below.

Obviously both China and India have enough bodies to hit the number, . . . and if they somehow combined forces, . . . nothing short of hell-fury thermonuclear butt kicking would be able to put a halt to them.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)




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