# three weapons to choose from to buy first?



## ghostman (Dec 11, 2014)

I am planning on going to a gun show next week and the three weapons I am looking for are a mosin nagant, a mossberg 590, and a keltec sub 2000 preferably in .40, but I only have enough funds to buy one. Advice on which to choose from.


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## Leeroy Jenkins (May 16, 2015)

What are you going to use it for? Any firearm experience?


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

ghostman said:


> I am planning on going to a gun show next week and the three weapons I am looking for are a mosin nagant, a mossberg 590, and a keltec sub 2000 preferably in .40, but I only have enough funds to buy one. Advice on which to choose from.


I would say any of the 3 that you can find and would be affordable at the gun show. You can get any or all 3 of those you listed cheaper by buying on-line and having it shipped to an FFL near you.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

1911
1911
And a 1911. J/k have fun.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

As somebody who owns more than 20 Mosins, I have to admit that (for the money they cost now) I don't recommend them to preppers... I'd rather steer somebody towards a modern bolt action rifle in .308, something like a Savage Axis which will be similar in cost to the Mosin, but much easier to put optics on. 

Of your list, I absolutely would go shotty first.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Mossy Shottie

Let it be written, let it be done!



ghostman said:


> I am planning on going to a gun show next week and the three weapons I am looking for are a mosin nagant, a mossberg 590, and a keltec sub 2000 preferably in .40, but I only have enough funds to buy one. Advice on which to choose from.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Take the time to go over to Gunbroker, . . . anytime before going to a show, . . . search and see what the going prices are on whatever you are wanting to buy, . . add 20 for shipping and 30 for the ffl check, . . . and you'll have a good idea of what you can spend at the show and come out even.

But I'm with Salt-N-Pepper, . . . forget the Mosin, . . . go for a bolt action in .308 would be my first choice, . . . 5.56 would be the next choice, . . . and 7.62 x 39 would be my final choice. They are all good choices, . . . . lots of ammo available for each, . . . easy to set up optics, . . . and are good prepper choices.

Again, . . . as he said, . . . if all things are equal, . . . shotgun should be first.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Foxfire (Nov 9, 2012)

I also agree with what's been said so far.

Is this going to be your first firearm?


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Slippy said:


> Mossy Shottie
> 
> Let it be written, let it be done!


I just acquired my second Springer 1911
Just buy the 500


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## Alteredstate (Jul 7, 2016)

Each man needs thee guns.

22 long rifle. Choose action
12 gauge pump shotgun two barrel bird and slug. Remington 870 or Mossberg pump.
Bolt action rifles in 270 308 or 30_06

After that it is preference 

There is no arguing my logic.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Alteredstate said:


> Each man needs thee guns.
> 
> 22 long rifle. Choose action
> 12 gauge pump shotgun two barrel bird and slug. Remington 870 or Mossberg pump.
> ...


What am I supposed to do with the shotgun?


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

If your starting from scratch, shotgun first. Deadly up close and can also get small and medium game. Then where are you? Urban, suburban, rural. Rural then I would go Mosin for the second. Utterly reliable in the most abysmal conditions imaginable. Suburban or Urban and you have a pistol that the Keltaec will accept mags for then it would be number two. Nice to stow when bugging out, if that is your plan so as to stay grey. I purposely stayed on your list.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Denton said:


> What am I supposed to do with the shotgun?


Hint: do not suck start it.


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## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

Find a way to get all 3!


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Camel923 said:


> Hint: do not suck start it.


I have a couple, but just because I have a purchasing problem. :tango_face_grin:

A .22 for small game, my .308s or even 5.56's for deer, and the .308 or 5.56 for anything else. Bulk wise, I can carry more shots with cartridges than shells.

Just seems logical, to me. I admit, I could be overlooking something.


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## ghostman (Dec 11, 2014)

No I already own several


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Denton said:


> I have a couple, but just because I have a purchasing problem. :tango_face_grin:
> 
> A .22 for small game, my .308s or even 5.56's for deer, and the .308 or 5.56 for anything else. Bulk wise, I can carry more shots with cartridges than shells.
> 
> Just seems logical, to me. I admit, I could be overlooking something.


Pheasants and ducks are way easier with a shot gun and it is just as effective with squirrels, rabbits and deer if close in. JMHO. I agree its easier to carry 1000 rounds of 22lr than a thousand shot gun shells. Depends on what the job is like any other tool.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Alteredstate said:


> Each man needs thee guns.
> 
> 22 long rifle. Choose action
> 12 gauge pump shotgun two barrel bird and slug. Remington 870 or Mossberg pump.
> ...


Good pecking order for long guns. Not sure why anybody would want s bolt action Elk gun but whatever floats the boat.


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## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

Mosin nothing to sneeze at and i like having some in my SHTF bag! Simple, powerful rifle.


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## Gator Monroe (Jul 29, 2017)

M38 Mosin , Maverick 88 Riot Configured , 1960s Ruger Mk1 (Standard)


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

If you don't have one already, shotgun.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

I would buy a shot gun first especially if It might be a while before you get anything else. Many people that is all they have even with money to buy more. 


You can hunt all kinds of game birds, squirrels, deer and Stop bad guys who are breaking in. 

I like the dependability of a 12 gauge pump.


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## Gator Monroe (Jul 29, 2017)

I thought this thread was "Start with Three Weapons" ??


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Camel923 said:


> Pheasants and ducks are way easier with a shot gun and it is just as effective with squirrels, rabbits and deer if close in. JMHO. I agree its easier to carry 1000 rounds of 22lr than a thousand shot gun shells. Depends on what the job is like any other tool.


Must be a regional thing. My neck of the woods isn't along the duck corridor, and I've never seen a pheasant. We have doves, but you can shoot them off th power lines with a .22. They ain't too smart.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Denton said:


> Must be a regional thing. My neck of the woods isn't along the duck corridor, and I've never seen a pheasant. We have doves, but you can shoot them off th power lines with a .22. They ain't too smart.


This is off subject a bit but how's the Turkey population around you?


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

@ghostman I think we may be purchasing a shotgun tonight. It'll be our first firearm purchase. Hubs wants that first--for home protection.

@Camel923 I'm not a hunter...I would've thought a shotgun would be too much for small game. Wouldn't that just blow the creature all to pieces? My dad (RIP) said that when he was a kid he and his friends used to go shoot rodents with their bb guns at the dump.

Next purchase'll be my handgun. I don't like the way a shotgun bruises my arm up.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Annie said:


> @ghostman I think we may be purchasing a shotgun tonight. It'll be our first firearm purchase. Hubs wants that first--for home protection.
> 
> @Camel923 I'm not a hunter...I would've thought a shotgun would be too much for small game. Wouldn't that just blow the creature all to pieces? My dad (RIP) said that when he was a kid he and his friends used to go shoot rodents with their bb guns at the dump.
> 
> Next purchase'll be my handgun. I don't like the way a shotgun bruises my arm up.


Depends on the gauge and shot size. As I said different tools for different jobs. Shotguns do a lot but not everything. You will find certain other firearms that are better suited to a particular situation but none cover the spectrum of a shotgun IMHO. A 22 or ismuch more conservative on a squirrel or rabbit. Run a beagle on rabbits and a shotgun will make harvesting the rabbit much less frustrating. At least it does for me.

A shot gun is an instinctive weapon. No long delay in getting your sights fixed prior to shooting.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

a 20 gauge isn't as bad on small game as a 12 is. Plus a youth Model 870 handles well indoors


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

Go with the shotgun first. Most versatile by virtue of load selection. Bolt rifle next then add a 22. JMHO.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

You can't go wrong with a 12 Gauge shotgun.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Just buy a Thompson Center Contender and get all you need in one gun.

https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/interchangeable-platforms


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## Notold63 (Sep 18, 2016)

I thought we were given 3 choices...I am assuming that you don't already own a firearm when I give my opinion (and we all know how much an opinion is worth ....something about butt holes, everybody having one, and stinking). Right off the bat I would pass on the Mosin. I own one, and like it, but I paid $100 for it. The prices on them have gone up so much that you can buy a good used rifle that is more modern for close to the same price. Something else to consider is that the other day I went to buy some cheap Russian ammo for it, and there were none. There also none for my SKS. There were plenty from other manufacturers, but at substantially higher prices. At just a guess It may be some government ban, but as I said, just a guess.

Between the pistol and the shotgun, if we knew that the SHTF was going to happen was going to happen tomorrow I would go with the shotgun. With the different sizes of shot plus slugs, it is probably the most adaptable firearm for different situations IF that is the only firearm you are going to own. BUT we don't know if or when the SHT, and whether or not it may be a slow and gradual decline. I don't know what the laws are at your location, but you may want a pistol for concealed or even open carry for now to protect yourself and your family when you are at home or going out for work or shopping. There are more pluses and minuses for both firearms, but ultimately the choice is yours, and you should get the one that you think fits your situation the best.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Camel923 said:


> This is off subject a bit but how's the Turkey population around you?


Everywhere. Can't shake a stick without hitting them in the head. When things are slow at work, I watch them in the cleared area between the woods and the fenced perimeter. Could pick them off with a .22. 
There's more wild boar than anything. I have to be mindful when driving home from work, at night, or I'll be having one as a hood ornament.


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## Gator Monroe (Jul 29, 2017)

If I could only have one firearm (Forever) it would be a Chinese type 56 "Spiker" AK , LIMITING US TO A BOLT GUN OR pistol or shotgun is very gungrabber sounding to me...


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Gator Monroe said:


> If I could only have one firearm (Forever) it would be a Chinese type 56 "Spiker" AK , LIMITING US TO A BOLT GUN OR pistol or shotgun is very gungrabber sounding to me...


He's not limiting you.
He's provided the 3 firearms he's currently looking at purchasing, and wanting to know opinions on which would be a best first choice before buying the others later.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> You can't go wrong with a 12 Gauge shotgun.
> 
> View attachment 50946


Prep, have you ever fired that shotty in that configuration?
I ask, because I have fired my 870 with a pistol grip, and will NEVER do it again if I can ever help it, lol.
That thing hurt like a b$&#^.

Plus, you lose a lot of control when you convert to a pistol grip.
After shooting it that way, I did some research, and found that most professionals recommend a full stock, and learning the right way to use it.
You don't have to fully seat it into the shoulder to be effective with it, and can make it work even in tight quarters. You just gotta tweak your tactics a bit.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> Prep, have you ever fired that shotty in that configuration?
> I ask, because I have fired my 870 with a pistol grip, and will NEVER do it again if I can ever help it, lol.
> That thing hurt like a b$&#^.
> 
> ...


I have done the research as well and I have shot the pistol grip many times. It's a jolt no doubt but I didn't find it all that bad really. It's just one of a couple that I have. They are configured with a full stock.

I purchased the pistol grip 12 gauge many years ago and never changed it out. I usually go with practical but it is functional and has the cool factor. :vs_cool:


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> Prep, have you ever fired that shotty in that configuration?
> I ask, because I have fired my 870 with a pistol grip, and will NEVER do it again if I can ever help it, lol.
> That thing hurt like a b$&#^.
> 
> ...


THIS! VERY MUCH this.

Especially if you are using big-ass rounds (think double-aught buck) in a riot gun (18.5 inch barrel). Double-aught will make shooting that thing a living hell, and this from a man that isn't afraid of getting a little bit of shoulder lovin from a gun...

If you are going to shoot one of those things, load it with light bird... still going to tear the crap out of whatever you are shooting at (it is a close-quarters 12-gauge) and it won't break your wrist. Probably.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> THIS! VERY MUCH this.
> 
> Especially if you are using big-ass rounds (think double-aught buck) in a riot gun (18.5 inch barrel). Double-aught will make shooting that thing a living hell, and this from a man that isn't afraid of getting a little bit of shoulder lovin from a gun...
> 
> If you are going to shoot one of those things, load it with light bird... still going to tear the crap out of whatever you are shooting at (it is a close-quarters 12-gauge) and it won't break your wrist. Probably.


Yep, my experience was with hi-brass 00 buck and I put a slug or two through it too.
It sucked.
Birdshot probably wouldn't be too bad, and would get the job done down a hallway.


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## Alteredstate (Jul 7, 2016)

Denton said:


> What am I supposed to do with the shotgun?


Squirrel, bird, rabbit, duck, deer, close range bad guy. The availability of ammo and diversity of the available rounds make it a staple. If you need to scrounge you will always find or be able to reload. From rock salt to gravel to wax you can shoot what ever you can fit down the barrel. There is no more developed or diverse round.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Alteredstate said:


> Squirrel, bird, rabbit, duck, deer, close range bad guy. The availability of ammo and diversity of the available rounds make it a staple. If you need to scrounge you will always find or be able to reload. From rock salt to gravel to wax you can shoot what ever you can fit down the barrel. There is no more developed or diverse round.


I have plenty of .22 ammo, which will work for squirrel and rabbit. It'll also work for turkey. A brick of .22 gives me a whole lot more shots for the space it takes. As I previously stated, my 5.56 and .30 cal. rifles have everything else covered. I have shotguns, but no need for them.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> I have plenty of .22 ammo, which will work for squirrel and rabbit. It'll also work for turkey. A brick of .22 gives me a whole lot more shots for the space it takes. As I previously stated, my 5.56 and .30 cal. rifles have everything else covered. I have shotguns, but no need for them.


Your capabilities might not necessitate a shotgun.
Nor would mine.
That said, if I had to make the choice to leave a firearm with my wife for the protection of herself and my kids, it's gonna be the shotgun every time.
Point, click, repeat as necessary. It is a great "under stress" option.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Your capabilities might not necessitate a shotgun.
> Nor would mine.
> That said, if I had to make the choice to leave a firearm with my wife for the protection of herself and my kids, it's gonna be the shotgun every time.
> Point, click, repeat as necessary. It is a great "under stress" option.


Alteredstate assumed his logic was beyond refute. He was wrong.

I do agree that the shotty is a good entry level gun, but it seems to me that an AR is, too. My wife loves her Windham Arms Muddy Girl, but she also loves Taurus Judge with .45 Colt rounds. That's her go-to weapon around the house. She's mean like that.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Alteredstate assumed his logic was beyond refute. He was wrong.


If you're referring to his "it's a diverse gun" comment, I agree with him.
While some rounds may seem impractical, when was the last time you shot fletchettes, beanbags, or a 10-foot flame out of a rifle or handgun? lol

If you're referring to a different post, I might have missed it.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> If you're referring to his "it's a diverse gun" comment, I agree with him.
> While some rounds may seem impractical, when was the last time you shot fletchettes, beanbags, or a 10-foot flame out of a rifle or handgun? lol
> 
> If you're referring to a different post, I might have missed it.


Yeah, you're right. It must have been in another thread.

I have no desire to launch any of the above mentioned rounds out of anything. Lead is good enough for me.

Wait; did you say a ten foot flame? You have my attention! :vs_wave:


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## ghostman (Dec 11, 2014)

I should have clarified in the beginning that I already own several guns and am just looking to get one as a prep and a plinker


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

Denton said:


> ...Wait; did you say a ten foot flame? You have my attention! :vs_wave:


Dragon's Breath
.




.
http://wolfhillammo.com/10-dragons-breath-special.aspx $5 per round, before shipping


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## ghostman (Dec 11, 2014)

Boss Dog said:


> Dragon's Breath
> .
> 
> 
> ...


Too bad pretty much every range bans those shells from being used.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Boss Dog said:


> Dragon's Breath
> .
> 
> 
> ...


Illegal in Florida.
Some idiot would start a 10,000 acre wildfire.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I like shotguns, have more than a dozen. Pumps, double barrel, single shot, bolt action.
Several dating to the late 1930's. 12 ga, 16 ga, 20 ga, .410 bore.
They are farm tools, and actually see use around the homestead.
Heck, I even keep an old 12 ga single shot and a couple of shells out in the barn just in case I need one in a hurry and neglected to bring one out of the house.

My sweetheart is a 1970's era Mossberg 183KE with C-Lect choke. This is a bolt action .410 repeater with an external choke that adjusts with a quick turn of the wrist, from full to cylinder and anything in between. One of my favorite woods walking guns, the other being an older Springfield 12 ga.

As the song says "different strokes for different folks".


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Wait; did you say a ten foot flame? You have my attention! :vs_wave:


Boss helped me out there. (Thanks again Boss!)
I've heard they're fun at night.
Never seen any for sale in my neck of the woods. Likely a special order kinda thing.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Kauboy said:


> Boss helped me out there. (Thanks again Boss!)
> I've heard they're fun at night.
> Never seen any for sale in my neck of the woods. Likely a special order kinda thing.


Several websites dedicated to exotic shotgun ammo from flame to cremated ashes. Firequest and Holy Smoke come to mind.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Denton said:


> I have plenty of .22 ammo, which will work for squirrel and rabbit. It'll also work for turkey. A brick of .22 gives me a whole lot more shots for the space it takes. As I previously stated, my 5.56 and .30 cal. rifles have everything else covered. I have shotguns, but no need for them.


Want a great way to use your shottys and increase your preparedness?

Sporting clays.

Reaction exercise with firearms, works wonders for your ability to track and shoot moving targets, something EVERY prepper needs practice with.

Besides, it's a ton of fun!


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Denton said:


> I have plenty of .22 ammo, which will work for squirrel and rabbit. It'll also work for turkey. A brick of .22 gives me a whole lot more shots for the space it takes. As I previously stated, my 5.56 and .30 cal. rifles have everything else covered. I have shotguns, but no need for them.


I am willing to sacrifice and take those slackers off your hands. No point in having useless firearms taking up space.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Camel923 said:


> I am willing to sacrifice and take those slackers off your hands. No point in having useless firearms taking up space.


Next thing you'll be doing is wanting my HiPoints because I have better handguns. :glasses:


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

FWIW - don't waste time buying flechette rounds for a shotgun.
They were tried in Vietnam, and it was found that plain old OO buck was far superior.
Now, flechettes fired over open sights from a 105 MM howitzer is a whole different deal. These were called Bee Hive rounds and produced excellent results.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Denton said:


> Next thing you'll be doing is wanting my HiPoints because I have better handguns. :glasses:


If they function Iam sure I can find a place for the unwanted.


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## Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Want a great way to use your shottys and increase your preparedness?
> 
> Sporting clays.
> 
> ...


It is so cool you mentioned that. it brought back memories when I was quite young. Every year at our family reunion (mom's side) all the older guys would shoot "Skeet". They even had a machine that launched them in the air. it was fun to watch as a kid. Those old guys were pretty darn good at it.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> As somebody who owns more than 20 Mosins, I have to admit that (for the money they cost now) I don't recommend them to preppers... I'd rather steer somebody towards a modern bolt action rifle in .308, something like a Savage Axis which will be similar in cost to the Mosin, but much easier to put optics on.
> 
> Of your list, I absolutely would go shotty first.


Well you have around 19 more than I do lol.

I agree with this post unless your buying it because your specifically want a Mosin Nagant, in which case spend away.

If it was me I would go with the Mossberg 590. A good shotgun isn't flashy, it won't ring the gong at 300 yards but 100 yards in with appropriate ammunition for the distance you can take any animal on this earth.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

Denton said:


> I have a couple, but just because I have a purchasing problem. :tango_face_grin:
> 
> A .22 for small game, my .308s or even 5.56's for deer, and the .308 or 5.56 for anything else. Bulk wise, I can carry more shots with cartridges than shells.
> 
> Just seems logical, to me. I admit, I could be overlooking something.


You are correct, anything you can take with a shotgun can be taken with a rifle with the exception of fowl in most cases. A shotgun lowers the skill cap needed and gives a much greater chance of success. When I first learned how to hunt and shoot, it was with a shotgun. Rifles came later on.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

ghostman said:


> I am planning on going to a gun show next week and the three weapons I am looking for are a mosin nagant, a mossberg 590, and a keltec sub 2000 preferably in .40, but I only have enough funds to buy one. Advice on which to choose from.


Kel-Tec Sub2000 Glock 19 Rifle


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Are you going to purchase other firearms? I'd make the first firearm a "Jack of all trades" type of fire arm. I started out with a 20 ga. shotgun from a wonderful friend of mine. Was easy enough for the wife to handle if she had to. Sufficient firepower if need be. Then I went up from there. Wife now has the 20 ga., a SD9 and Colt Detective Spec. in .38 and am AR 15. I really have to say I believe that every tool has its job. BUT, don't get carried away with all sorts of different calibers.


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## Rabies (Jun 22, 2016)

ghostman said:


> I am planning on going to a gun show next week and the three weapons I am looking for are a mosin nagant, a mossberg 590, and a keltec sub 2000 preferably in .40, but I only have enough funds to buy one. Advice on which to choose from.


1 Rifle 
1 Shotgun
1 Handgun

that's the 3 you need.

Rifle for hunting big game and self defense
Shotgun for hunting small game, fowl and self defense
Handgun for self defense.

"NEED" VS "WANT" That is the question you to ask and answer for yourself.
using the right tool for the right job also helps.


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## Gator Monroe (Jul 29, 2017)

One AK/AKM One Handgun . (That will land you an arsenal if you play cards right)


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## ridgerunnersurvival (Jul 17, 2017)

Annie said:


> @ghostman I think we may be purchasing a shotgun tonight. It'll be our first firearm purchase. Hubs wants that first--for home protection.
> 
> @Camel923 I'm not a hunter...I would've thought a shotgun would be too much for small game. Wouldn't that just blow the creature all to pieces? My dad (RIP) said that when he was a kid he and his friends used to go shoot rodents with their bb guns at the dump.
> 
> Next purchase'll be my handgun. I don't like the way a shotgun bruises my arm up.


Annie: Check out the Knoxx Kicklite stock. Combined with a 20ga, you will have absolutely no issue running a shotgun


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## Rabies (Jun 22, 2016)

A shotgun wont "blow away" small game......if you pick the right load.
shot sizes run backwards, 000 00 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
000 being the largest at about .36 caliber, #12 is about .05 caliber
000 to 4 buck would be best for hunting and self defense.

8 to 12 is the finest shot, about the size of a pinhead, good for skeet
6 to 8 is good for game and birds
1 to 6 is good for larger birds like turkey, duck, guess

but don't confuse 1-4 shot with 1-4 buck shot......it sounds confusing I'm sure, but just google "shot sizes" and you'll find a picture that shows each size and its diameter with a life size picture of each. You can print it and keep a copy of it in your wallet till you remember what works best for you and what job.

The shotgun is a very versatile tool, always has been since the dawn of firearms, weather its a muzzle loading blunderbuss or a Remington 870! one projectile or many.......a shotgun can do the job! But they are limited by range.

Shot size chart can be found here http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html


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