# Caliber specific issues in an EOW situation



## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Whenever you prep, you have to look at devices that require continual supplies and ensure that you will have a continuing supply. So there it is year ten of the apocalypse and you start realizing your ammo choices may have been a mistake...

223: Uses an uncommon 22cal bullet. But you can pull bullets from other calibers. The real chokepoint is the brass, nothing else uses 223 brass in any form. Once those cases start to split, you will need to consider a subcaliber alternative like a 22cal conversion kit. Also must use BALL powder or the AR will jam a lot. Also, no lead in a 223...pressures are too high. Jsp & fmj only.

7.62x54: The projectile is common to almost a dozen other cartridges, so you are good there. But most x39 in the country is steel cased and Berdan primed...not even fit for recycling. Consider rebarreling down the road. Also the ak uses stick powder.

9mm: other than pocket pistols and shooting feral dogs i got no use for the caliber. But it is the most prolific cartridge on the planet. 9mm will be one of the last calibers to go extinct. But guns with polygonal rifling will only fire jacketed bullets reliably, so if you have a glock orUSP then you may rethink that shit...jacketed bullets are difficult to manufacture compared to lead.

308: The appeal of 308is that it will shoot lead or jacketed, any powder,, uses an extremely common projectile, and when all of your necks start splitting, you can cut the brass down into 243 or half a dozen other rounds.

8x57: good caliber but much of theammo out there is corrosive turkish . Odd bullet too

Gotta go to work.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

No love for the 9mm? That is barr none my go-to handgun cartridge. Powerful, plentiful and cheap. All I have anymore is 9 and .45. I sold the rest. We were discussing the rifle cartridge dilemma in another thread. If I had to grab one gun, forsaking all others, it would be my Mossberg 500 pursuader. Birds, bears, deer, marauders, takes care of the gamut. Shot shells are more plentiful than any rifle cartridge. My second choice will be the M4 and all the .223 boxer/brass I can carry. Choice 3 would be my AKM in 7.62x39. I have never reloaded so my experience with that is zero. I have shot some reloads though, didn't work out so good.


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## StarPD45 (Nov 13, 2012)

The only comment I can make re. the 9MM is you can get aftermarket barrels for the Glock that use conventional rifling.


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## Rekkr870 (Jun 25, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Whenever you prep, you have to look at devices that require continual supplies and ensure that you will have a continuing supply. So there it is year ten of the apocalypse and you start realizing your ammo choices may have been a mistake...
> 
> 223: Uses an uncommon 22cal bullet. But you can pull bullets from other calibers. The real chokepoint is the brass, nothing else uses 223 brass in any form. Once those cases start to split, you will need to consider a subcaliber alternative like a 22cal conversion kit. Also must use BALL powder or the AR will jam a lot. Also, no lead in a 223...pressures are too high. Jsp & fmj only.
> 
> ...


I'll bite.

As far as ammunition goes, if one has a stockpile of ammo, you may not even have to reload. Say you have 10,000 rounds of each of your preferred calibers, 5.56/.223 and 9mm to be specific. Let's say an event happened that lasted 10 years. Unless you shoot 1k rounds a year, you're golden. I for one don't plan on being Rambo or getting into a firefight every weekend, so I prep accordingly.

On your thoughts about the 9mm, are you saying that the cartridge is not potent enough or what? Could you explain?

I don't intend to start a flame war, just friendly conversation.


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## ordnance21xx (Jan 29, 2014)

Rekkr870 said:


> I'll bite.
> 
> As far as ammunition goes, if one has a stockpile of ammo, you may not even have to reload. Say you have 10,000 rounds of each of your preferred calibers, 5.56/.223 and 9mm to be specific. Let's say an event happened that lasted 10 years. Unless you shoot 1k rounds a year, you're golden. I for one don't plan on being Rambo or getting into a firefight every weekend, so I prep accordingly.
> 
> ...


I'm with you, I don't intend to start a war, but the big expenditure of ammo should come in the first year or so. maybe first months. we should be able to pick up ammo if still alive from dead? If common calibers, like 5.56mn or .308 American calibers. AK is not common caliber. If, you want to reload try Classic lee loader. you can get them in any caliber you want. how ever powder is/may not be same for all calibers. ie; rifle and pistols. Just my opinion, pls take it or leave it.

MOLON LABE


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

While the SHTF event may continue for ten years or 20 or 50 years, I doubt (pray) that we will normalize the situation and start to rebuild in a few years. Hopefully that will reduce the ammunition expenditures to a sane level. I figure starting day 2, 3 or 4 I will be consuming ammunition at a fast pace for a few weeks. After that I expect the need will dwindle substantially. So in general I would hope that 50,000 rounds of .223/5.56, 10,000 rounds of .308, 5,000 rounds of .30 carbine, 10,000 rounds of 20 Ga. ( 12 Ga. too much for Mrs. and my old shoulder), 5,000 rounds of .45 and 5,000 rounds of 9mm (for the Mrs.) would be sufficient if it is backed up with reloading supplies. Just my opinion and we all know what opinions are worth.


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## omegabrock (Jun 16, 2014)

kind of off topic: but is there really a difference in .223 and 5.56? i know you can't use both unless it's bored for both but if you have a .223/5.56, is there a benefit to stocking up on one over the other?


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## just mike (Jun 25, 2014)

5.56 is a higher pressure round. Perfectly safe to fire .223 in any 5.56 weapon but DO NOT fire 5.56 in any weapon chambered for .223. If you reload do not mix your brass, 5.56 brass is thicker than .223 especially at the neck and if you reload .223 brass to 5.56 pressures you risk your weapon and injury to yourself. Both are effective rounds out to 450 to 500 yards or less.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Serpico was supposed to be a true story, and I think I heard that the gun that shot him pointblank in the kisser was a .225".
It made a hole in his cheek and dazed him for a couple of days but did no real harm.
Just wondering what something like a .38" or 9mm would have done by comparison?

_Frames from the movie-_


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Chuck Norris would have caught the bullet with his teeth and spit it back.


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## omegabrock (Jun 16, 2014)

just mike said:


> 5.56 is a higher pressure round. Perfectly safe to fire .223 in any 5.56 weapon but DO NOT fire 5.56 in any weapon chambered for .223. If you reload do not mix your brass, 5.56 brass is thicker than .223 especially at the neck and if you reload .223 brass to 5.56 pressures you risk your weapon and injury to yourself. Both are effective rounds out to 450 to 500 yards or less.


how about in terms of damage, knock down power, accuracy? say, for a range between 100-250m


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

StarPD45 said:


> The only comment I can make re. the 9MM is you can get aftermarket barrels for the Glock that use conventional rifling.


And they work well with Lead Round Nose 124gr


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

omegabrock said:


> how about in terms of damage, knock down power, accuracy? say, for a range between 100-250m


I load most of the 556 to 223 levels,then when they have served most of their usable life,the 556 cases get pumped up and put away


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Hmmmmm. 

Okay, lemme stop y'all there. This isnt a discussion of your favorite caliber, it is about which calibers will get you the most lifespan after the factories are extinct. Even if society rebuilds there will not be factories capable of complex manufacturing for some time, at least until we have the repopulation to support the industry (500k or so).. powder would be even longer (black powder would fill the gap for a while but will kill an AR15s gas system, and deliver poor performance in 223)

The idea of the thread is to get you thinking like a reloader and examining the commanalities of ammo. You can extend your ammo considerably by salvaging from odball ammo. For instance you could use projectiles from a 22-250 for your 223, or the 45caliber bullets in your pistol could be used in a 45-70 (or vice versa). 

As one of you pointed out, your go to guns are almost all on this list.

And 9mm is anemic. If i gotta carry a full size gun then i want a full size caliber. Read up on the fbi shootout in miami against 2 bank robbers. One of the opening shots was athru shot that penetrated both of the felons lungs, exanded as advertised, yet he went on to killor injure 9 federal agents (who violated the rule about taking handguns to a rifle fight.) The bullet was a Winchester silvertip.

Another awesome source of real world data on your favorite calibers would be the excellent Handgun Stopping Power (1 & 2,) by Sanow & Marshall.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Here is another example, smokeless powder starts running out so you switch to black powder. This is okay with a 45acp (marginal) and fine with 45-70, but terrible to gas inpingement systems. But your 308 bolt gun could be made to perform with both lead and black powder. An AR could not make that claim.

I am trying to get y'all to think further down the road for your prepping.


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## Rekkr870 (Jun 25, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Hmmmmm.
> 
> Okay, lemme stop y'all there. This isnt a discussion of your favorite caliber, it is about which calibers will get you the most lifespan after the factories are extinct. Even if society rebuilds there will not be factories capable of complex manufacturing for some time, at least until we have the repopulation to support the industry (500k or so).. powder would be even longer (black powder would fill the gap for a while but will kill an AR15s gas system, and deliver poor performance in 223)
> 
> ...


I'm sure the bullet used in the 1986 FBI Shootout was anemic. But considering it isn't the 1980's anymore, 9mm is more than enough. Ammunition technology has significantly improved in the past 25+ years.

Look at the ballistics between the 9mm, .40, and .45. In all of their best loads, there is marginal difference. There are many recent tests that show caliber comes second place in a world of shot placement.


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## sparkyprep (Jul 5, 2013)

Seneca said:


> Chuck Norris would have caught the bullet with his teeth and spit it back.


At lethal velocity.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Seneca said:


> Chuck Norris would have caught the bullet with his teeth and spit it back.


The death of the shooter would be ruled as a case of suicide by Norris.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Think you answered your own question with the 308. Can use the 30 caliber bullets for so many guns. 30-06, 308 and 300 win mag in my case plus whatever else comes along. Same powder and primers and can load sub sonic or high power loads, 90 grain to 220 grains.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

omegabrock said:


> kind of off topic: but is there really a difference in .223 and 5.56? i know you can't use both unless it's bored for both but if you have a .223/5.56, is there a benefit to stocking up on one over the other?


Best to stock up on 5.56 weapons and not give the ammo a second thought.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

omegabrock said:


> kind of off topic: but is there really a difference in .223 and 5.56? i know you can't use both unless it's bored for both but if you have a .223/5.56, is there a benefit to stocking up on one over the other?


Cost.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

But with 5.56 you have a semi-rare projectile that must be jacketed. Nothing else on the planet uses the 223 case so when those run out you are toast, and it is a high pressure cartridge. Also, the cartridge relies on velocity to work (as does 9mm) so as the powder ages you will have a loss of downrange lethality. Black powder as a substitute would be strictly verboten with a gas inpingement system. 

For EOW I have mixed emotions about the 9. Yes, it is anemic, doesn't start with a 4 or end with magnum. But as I mentioned, it is the most prolific cartridge on the planet, so it will be one of the last to run out of ammo. But it has serious limits, such as the cartridge is already being pushed as hard as it can be. Most 9mm loads are known as 'lightly compressed' loads, ergo you fill them with powder and mash it down with a projectile. There is no turbo button, no souping up the cartridge, WYSIWYG. 

45 acp on the other hand, is not velicity dependant. It's a big slow bullet, and the loss of a few FPS really makes little difference. If it hits you at 800 fps or 600 fps..."Whethor the stone hits the pitcher, or the pitcher hits the stone, it's gonna be bad for the pitcher." 45acp is also very prolific in North America, and can be loaded with any bullet powder combination imagineable. I have loaded 45acp with shotgun powder, like 2 or 3 different types. The projectile is common but the case is not.

40 caliber is an interesting caliber. You can start with 10mm and cut the cases down to 40 cal. same bullet for both, but it'll be a few more years before 40 is everywhere. Not a lot of calibers use the bullet, I think you can cut down a couple of rifle cartridges to make 40 cal, but don;t remeber which ones. Love the caliber, and according to sanow & marshall the 40 cal is on par with the legendary 357 magnum for stopping power.

38/357 Lotsa these around, same dies, same brass, same bullets, and the projectiles are fairly common since they are used in other cartridges as well. Like the 45 there is an infinite combination of bullets n powder loadings. Jacketed, cast lead, birdshot capsules, 110-180grain bullets (it'll shoot anything.) Good hunting cartridge. And the cartridge works well at a variety of speeds. Common projectile, but I donp;t know of anything that can be cut down for brass.

And someone made a really great point about after market barrels for the Glocks and USPs. These are some really great guns, but polygonal rifling and lead bullets do not mix. You will see a jam on almost every magazine if you try to shoot lead thru one of these wonderful guns.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

And remember that the downside to high pressure cartridges is that their brass wears out faster. I can make a 7x57 or a 30-30 last for 7 or 8 reloads, but you'll only get 3 or 4 outta 223. And if you max out the 9mm then you will eat up those little casing as well. 

But you can kill lotsa stuff with a low pressure 45acp load. 357 too, especially with heavies.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

On another forum the topic of a .357 revo/lever action SHTF combo came up and I think that's a real winner! Admittedly low capacity but a great long term solution with a lot of flexibility.


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

The 38 Special started out as a black powder load. I would look into the old Colt revolvers and Winchester rifles as backups to what I have now.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

I agree that the magnum is an ideal eow option.

Lotsa brass
Wiiiiiiide range of bullets and loads (rabbit to deer) 
Compatible with carbines*
Can use black powder
Revolvers are far less sensitive to grunge than an auto
357 can be cut down to 38spcl when the necks split
38 can be cut down to 38colt or 38s&w (just watch the pressures as the chamber space is reduced.)
Rated 96% one-shot stop by sanow and marshall, 2% better than 45acp!
357 will shoot any type bullet, lead or jacketed or even mollycoated
Any powder


38 colt n 38s&w were BP rounds originally, 38spcl came along in the 30s i believe.

*the Rossi carbine is a great little gun, but its rifling is like 1 in 16, seriously. With slower bullets you may have keyholing or the trajectory of a rainbow. Neat little gun, i luv em, but a lotta guys cant get past the rifling.


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

According to Cartridges of the World 12th edition the 38spl was introduced by S&W in 1902. The 357 mag came along in 1935 also by S&W.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

You are presuming that a person will not have enough loaded ammo put away, but will somehow have components available to jury rig reloaded ammo.
And for that matter, it doesn't really matter if military surplus ammo is corrosive or not. I'm sitting on a bunch of 1954 Bulgarian Light Ball 7.62X54R and it works just fine.
I have on hand beaucoup rounds in 22 different calibers and gauges, and firearms in each. I won't be running out anytime soon.


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## vandelescrow (Nov 17, 2012)

Ralph Rotten said:


> And remember that the downside to high pressure cartridges is that their brass wears out faster. I can make a 7x57 or a 30-30 last for 7 or 8 reloads, but you'll only get 3 or 4 outta 223. And if you max out the 9mm then you will eat up those little casing as well.
> 
> But you can kill lotsa stuff with a low pressure 45acp load. 357 too, especially with heavies.


.223 can be reloaded up to 10 times. So far I've reloaded them 5-6 times and only had to throw 2-3 away due to a split neck on a batch of 300-400. Some of these split necks may have been from brass I picked up and not ones I fired.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Not going to get into the difference here but there are plenty of 223/5.56 around I have plenty. It can be reloaded. 5.56 cases are a bit stronger and hold up well if you do not load them hot. Not at all worried about 5.56 supplies for a long time to come.
Not getting rid od anything we have. 22 through Colt 45 in hand guns and a wide selection of rifle calibers. One thing to have it and not need the caliber than need it and not have the weapon.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

This Thread As Many Do Drifted Off Topic. 

If I Were Ever To Purchase Fire Arms And Ammunition I Would Likely End Up Purchasing Every Standard Shotgun Gauge 410 20 16 12 And 10
And Then All Twelve Of The Worlds Most Standard Caliber Rifles And Pistols.

This Would Create A Need For A Stock Pile Of Ammunition For An Ever Increasing Variety Of Fire Arms That Would Be Exacerbated By World Events And Influenced By Reading Web Forums Filed With Commentary By Fear Mongers That Would Influence My Mind To Have More Quantity Of Ammo Than I Would Likely Ever Need.
This Is Why I Chose Not To Get Into Collecting Fire Arms.

And All Twelve Of The Most Common Riffle And Hand Gun Calibers.

And Then Try To Stock Pile Gradually More Ammunition Over A Twenty Year Period For An Ever Increasing Variety Of Fire Arms.


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## Badcompany (Jun 28, 2014)

I hate to be the buzz kill on the forum, however, in an EOW situation I would surely hope that anyone hoping to survive would have skill set to aquire more weaponry. Im a firm believer in being able to mobilize. That means traveling light, you have to be able to aquire on the move. Just my two cents, I couldn't help it.


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## Purkeypilot (Dec 21, 2012)

Badcompany said:


> I hate to be the buzz kill on the forum, however, in an EOW situation I would surely hope that anyone hoping to survive would have skill set to aquire more weaponry. Im a firm believer in being able to mobilize. That means traveling light, you have to be able to aquire on the move. Just my two cents, I couldn't help it.


+1 You need to be able to keep progressing forward. When you start planning for having to cut down brass cases because of neck cracking...I would consider that over-thinking. There is a *fine* line between preparing/planning and just simply over analyzing.


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## Innkeeper (Jun 18, 2014)

I think long before we need to cut down, the problem will be solved and the survivors will be living in relative peace again. There is more then enough ammo in the world to kill all 8 Billion without worry. And if it gets to a point where I have run out of ammo for my weapons or can't acquire new weapons and ammo, I am either going to be dead or all alone.


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## Purkeypilot (Dec 21, 2012)

Innkeeper said:


> I think long before we need to cut down, the problem will be solved and the survivors will be living in relative peace again. There is more then enough ammo in the world to kill all 8 Billion without worry. And if it gets to a point where I have run out of ammo for my weapons or can't acquire new weapons and ammo, I am either going to be dead or all alone.


This scenario is far more likely than most others.


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## Maxxdad (Feb 5, 2014)

" Nothing else on the planet uses the 223 case so when those run out you are toast, and it is a high pressure cartridge."

Don't the 300BO and Whispers use the 223/556 cases? Not that they are typical.

Also, If I have been shooting the hell out of the bad guys it is most likely because they are armed with something. If you figure for every 50 rounds I shoot of my own I tag one bad guy (I would hope it would be a better percentage), and said bad guy is armed with anything that shoots and has an average of 50 rounds on him, there would be a net 0 in used to expended.


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## Lucky Jim (Sep 2, 2012)

Incidentally what handguns do America's police forces use?
They're professionals in harm's way, so maybe we can learn something by looking at what they prefer to pack.
For example somebody once said in this site that most US police forces use automatics instead of revolvers which surprised me because I thought volvers are more reliable cos they don't jam so easily?
But what the hell do i know?..


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

Lucky Jim said:


> Incidentally what handguns do America's police forces use?
> They're professionals in harm's way, so maybe we can learn something by looking at what they prefer to pack.
> For example somebody once said in this site that most US police forces use automatics instead of revolvers which surprised me because I thought volvers are more reliable cos they don't jam so easily?
> But what the hell do i know?..


 You can't go by what police use. They use whatever they get the best deal on and whatever the person in charge thinks is the best and many change all the time. 
LAPD uses the 9mm as the issue handgun, but LAPD SWAT uses the 1911 chambered in .45.
Texas DPS went to that new .357 a few years back that was gonna be the next big thing but didn't catch on, now they are going to something else. Just some examples. 
And to the OP and many others in this thread. Just how much ammo do you really think your gonna use after TEOTWAWKI? Really? You think your gonna be at war constantly for 10 years? You think your gonna be on the range firing thousands of rounds? Well. Gunshots are loud. Gunshots attract attention. If your smart you won't be using any more ammo than is absolutely necessary. Firing a gun will be the absolute LAST option. But maybe I should keep that to myself after all and let all of you shoot each other up then come along and deal with whoever is left after the massacres.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Maxxdad said:


> " Nothing else on the planet uses the 223 case so when those run out you are toast, and it is a high pressure cartridge."
> 
> Don't the 300BO and Whispers use the 223/556 cases? Not that they are typical.
> 
> Also, If I have been shooting the hell out of the bad guys it is most likely because they are armed with something. If you figure for every 50 rounds I shoot of my own I tag one bad guy (I would hope it would be a better percentage), and said bad guy is armed with anything that shoots and has an average of 50 rounds on him, there would be a net 0 in used to expended.


The 300 is best made out of 556 blanks


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## vandelescrow (Nov 17, 2012)

Maxxdad said:


> " Nothing else on the planet uses the 223 case so when those run out you are toast, and it is a high pressure cartridge."


In addition to M16/AR15, Tavor and FS2000 just to name a few.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

vandelescrow said:


> In addition to M16/AR15, Tavor and FS2000 just to name a few.


Not to mention the Mini 14 and Steyer Scout chambered in .223 and the regular old bolt action varmint rifle.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Can you honestly say that you will never need to buy ammo again? For the rest of your life? Teotwawki is permanent. You cannot assume it will stabilize in your lifetime, in fact you cant assume anything about an apocalyptic event. Ammo runs out. You may not be shooting at people all the time, but you may wanna eat rabbit every day, and thatll be at least a bullet a day. 

Also, many of you are planning for only yourself, but most likely survival will depend on alliances, gangs, the power of a crew. You could be arming a small militia.

The idea of this thread is for you to look beyond the coolness factor of a tricked out AR, or misplaced faith in ammo stockpiles. You could find yourself having to pull projectiles from one obsolete cartridge to use in another. You could be trimming brass from 357 to 38spcl to 38s&w just to get your dinner. 

For instance..if i have a lotta 308 brass but i run outta 30 caliber bullets (since they could also be used in my 30-30, my mosin, and my AK) i can cut that brass down into ammo for a dozen other calibers. You could feasably support your arsenal for scores if you use them right.

And whoever mentioned the corrosive ammo: not only does the stuff ruin your rifle, but it renders the brass unusuable (even if it had boxer primers it would crack and split prematurely due to brittleness caused by the mercuric primers.) I have a bit of the stuff, but it only shoots well outta my mauser with the extra long barrel (smoky too) because the powder is breaking down.


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## vandelescrow (Nov 17, 2012)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Can you honestly say that you will never need to buy ammo again? For the rest of your life? Teotwawki is permanent. You cannot assume it will stabilize in your lifetime, in fact you cant assume anything about an apocalyptic event. Ammo runs out. You may not be shooting at people all the time, but you may wanna eat rabbit every day, and thatll be at least a bullet a day.
> 
> Also, many of you are planning for only yourself, but most likely survival will depend on alliances, gangs, the power of a crew. You could be arming a small militia.
> 
> ...


I see what your saying but, by the time my brass (.223) has all split and no longer usable, or your brass trimming it down, are you going to have any primers left? How about powder? Yea if you have the right chemicals you can make black powder but I doubt you will find a recipe for reloading with it. Rifles are more forgiving but not pistols so if your making your own powder for your 357, 38spcl or 38s&w I don't want to be any where near you when testing it. With that said, in your scenario the only real long term gun will be an old flint lock.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

You cannot make a 38 S&W from a 357/38 special. The 38 S&W uses a larger diameter bullet and the case won't fit into a 357/ 38 Special. If you are splitting necks then stop over-crimping the brass.

Any reloader knows that you can't use "any powder" to load a shell - I don't care if it is a pistol or rifle. There are some powders with a wide range of uses but there are darn few that will be useful on a 32 ACP and a 357 magnum. Likewise the powders that work in the 223 will not work well in a 300 Winchester Magnum or a 3006. You can reload corrosive primed brass, and yes the mercury will shorten the life of the cartridge but it can still be reloaded until it splits. Using corrosive ammo in a modern gun is easy - you just have to clean it after you are done shooting. It won't hurt your barrel unless you don't clean the gun and let it get wet without doing something about it. To clean a gun after using corrosive ammo you use hot water and soap - just like washing your hands. Then you run dry patches through it and then oil it. That is about caring for your gun.

Any gun that can safely fire smokeless powder can have black powder run through it - again you wash it with soap and water - dry it and oil it. Black powder can't produce nearly the pressure that smokeless powder does in a firearm so you load it with as much black powder as you can force into the case and then squeeze the bullet down on top of it.

As to wearing out your brass - I have to call BS on the limits that are being stated here. I load my '06 brass over 20 times and never had a problem with it - some of that brass is reloads that I put together after shooting the WWII rounds - yep! corrosive primers OMG! I ruined my gun! As long as I can keep shooting under 1" groups out at 100 yards I don't think the corrosive ammo hurt it much. The mercury in the primers hasn't caused many issues either. I did have a couple fail but that was because I was over-working the brass in resizing it. Since I stopped over working the brass in the sizing process I haven't had any failures.

I have enough brass that my grandkids may have to think about replacing it before they hand it down to their kids but honestly they will be putting a new barrel on the rifle by that time and they can make it for whatever cartridge they want.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

At my age, I could very well have enough ammo to last the rest of my life. I just hope that when I die, my wife doesn't really sell all my ammo and firearms for the amount I told her it cost me to buy it.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Here is another example, smokeless powder starts running out so you switch to black powder. This is okay with a 45acp (marginal) and fine with 45-70, but terrible to gas inpingement systems. But your 308 bolt gun could be made to perform with both lead and black powder. An AR could not make that claim.
> 
> I am trying to get y'all to think further down the road for your prepping.


The AR would just be converted to a single shot on black powder. The thing does not need to be self loading or extracting to be a valuable tool. Think of it as a straight pull bolt. Also 223 jackets can be made from 22LR brass the dies cost about 800 bucks but you will never have to buy jacketed bullets again.

On another note: 223 will shoot lead bullets just fine if you keep the velocities down to about 1500 FPS if you don't have gas checks and they can go up to 3000 with gas checks. There are a lot of guys on Castboolets.com that will tell you that an AR will shoot lead bullets just fine, because they have fired thousands of them through the AR.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

If you have as much brass as u say Paul then it is not likely to be your weakpoint. I have hundreds of pounds of brass sorted and stored clean with a dessicant. Brass n powder will be the last thing i need. About a thousand primers, lotsa bullets. 

20 reloads is pretty outstanding though about 5 past what id call believable. If you load brass properly, stick to neck sizing, keep them trimmed properly, you can gat ten or more loads from a single case. 

There is a great website out there that talks about CARTRIDGE FAMILIES. Forget the url, but you can google the phrase. The idea of focusing your arsenal around a particular cartridge family is not a bad idea. 

And why would anyone say that they wouldnt want to be around when i test black powder. Its much more forgiving stuff than smokeless. You determine the proper load for a bp round by pouring powder over it until it is covered, and thatll be the right load of powder. BP has a big SWAG factor to it. On your first batches you are more likely to have a fizzle than a boom.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Ralph,
I have this thing against lying - even on the net or to people I don't know.
I used to keep track of how many times my cases were reloaded but after loading them 20 times I stopped tracking it. 
When I was full length sizing my brass I had cartridges that lasted ten loadings or a bit more but then they would split vertically in the body of the case.
Since I have been partial neck sizing (I only size about 80% of the neck) I haven't had a failure. That has been 29 years. 
I believe pressure is the killer of brass and I never load to maximum listed loads - most of the time I find an accurate load near 95 to 97% of maximum. I load mostly ball type (double base) powders which seem to burn cooler than the single base powders but I do use H4895 as well. It has given me some very accurate loads in the 3006, 358, and 30-30.

I have to get my shop finished so I can start loading again - it has been almost two years now and I miss it.


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## keith9365 (Apr 23, 2014)

I have a good supply of 9mm and 7.62nato on hand. If I burn through that there will be enough weapons and ammo around to pick up or I'll be dead.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

PaulS said:


> Ralph,
> I have this thing against lying - even on the net or to people I don't know.
> I used to keep track of how many times my cases were reloaded but after loading them 20 times I stopped tracking it.
> When I was full length sizing my brass I had cartridges that lasted ten loadings or a bit more but then they would split vertically in the body of the case.
> ...


Wasnt calling ya a liar, just sounded like a high number. But if they are only being neck resized then that is feasable, but the obvious hiccup is that those rounds may not fit other rifles so well.

Essentially this thread is an exercise to ensure that when the ammo finally runs out, you will be one of the last. In an EOW situation a gun is power, but without ammo they are just paperweights. It is a habit of mine in forums to try to get people to expand their thinking into new ways they had not previously considered. Sometimes it results in an epiphany, other times just an internet rant.

But truthfully, how many of you had considered this topic before reading this thread?


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## thepeartree (Aug 25, 2014)

I found it educational, if a bit high in the temperature range. It pretty well confirms that a 308 is a decent choice for gp work at ranges up to, what, 500 yds? And ammo should be around plus being fairly easy to reload. I know how to manufacture bp, which is a plus. For those of us on limited budgets, this should be a good choice.


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## Sockpuppet (Sep 6, 2014)

Rekkr870 said:


> I'm sure the bullet used in the 1986 FBI Shootout was anemic. But considering it isn't the 1980's anymore, 9mm is more than enough. Ammunition technology has significantly improved in the past 25+ years.
> 
> Look at the ballistics between the 9mm, .40, and .45. In all of their best loads, there is marginal difference. There are many recent tests that show caliber comes second place in a world of shot placement.


I took a group of people out to the junkyard 6 months ago, and demonstrated the differences in handgun caliber penetration.

Three calibers: 9mm Para, .40 S&W, .45 ACP.........Which round do you suppose penetrated a windshield of a car?

The 9mm was the only one that didn't.

Ballistic gelatin may be penetrated to 12 inches by the 3 aforementioned rounds, but the differences aren't really marginal.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

List of what I have no special order
.22
.25 auto
.38
380
357
9mm
.45
.45 Colt
410,.12,20 and 16 ga
.223
5.56
7.62X39
30-30
30.06
308
If I can't find something to shoot in at least one of them Game over I lost


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## SecretPrepper (Mar 25, 2014)

After doing some research I have determined I need 13,200 bullets.
Looking at military numbers (then saying a prayer for our troops) for kill to death ratios. 30 to 1 is most likely the best I can hope for but more likely it will be 10 to 1 or less. 
Looking at LEO numbers for shots to hits ratios and taking some of the worst numbers it is 36 to 1.
If I only encounter 1 bad guy per year and have to shoot 1 animal per day to eat with a 10% miss factor. I will have right at 60 rounds left for the bad guy to take off of my dead body.
More likely I will die from hitting my leg with an axe while chopping wood or a snake bite far before I run out of preloaded ammo.
I am all for thinking outside the box so here goes. Year 5 I start loading ammo. Through barter many items will be available that is not on hand at home today. As long as there are people that know how and have the tools there will be someone pumping out ammo. Gunsmiths and Blacksmiths will be around before I run out of ammo. If it is 5 years in and there is no trade happining anywhere. I will most likely be dead from something anyway. LOL I'll probably trip on a stick in the dark on the way out to take a s&%t and brake my fool neck at day 3.
There is outside the box and then there is off the reservation. You are asking people to over situate the situation.


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