# Had to Ward Off a Possible Threat Tonight



## SecTec21 (Jul 27, 2013)

It's about 9:00 pm. The wife and I are on our way home after a dinner out. She is driving her car and must get gas to be able to get to work tomorrow morning. We decide to stop at a C-store we have been using for over 20 years and at all times of the day and night. We're very familiar with the neighborhood. The store is located on Main Street, in a high traffic block of the street, and is well lit. 

As we pull in, I notice an African-American man about 5'7"-5'9" standing on the sidewalk watching the store and the pumps. He is wearing a dark baseball cap and a long (to his knees) tan raincoat unbelted and open in the front. It has been raining today but cleared off about 3:00 pm. The temperature is in the mid 60's. He has both hands in his coat pockets. 

When we get to the pumps the wife gets out to pump the gas. It's her car and she has been pumping her own gas since the oil embargo of '73. I tell her I'll keep an eye on the guy loitering on the sidewalk. She says, "What guy?" I'm surprised she hadn't noticed him. She is usually more aware than that of the things going on around her. She regrets having picked the pumps nearest the sidewalk, about 25 - 30 feet from the guy. There are no other customers at the pumps. He's watching us and I'm watching him from the passenger seat. The passenger side of the car is nearer the sidewalk. 

For the first few minutes he just watches. His hands go in and out of his coat pockets a few times. He starts walking down the sidewalk parallel to us but getting closer to us too. Then he steps onto the C-store property heading toward us on an angle that will bring him directly to me. 

I get out of the car and reach into my right front pocket for the pepper spray I always carry. The guy throws up his right hand and says something to me but keeps his left hand in his coat pocket. 

"Don't come any closer or I will spray you." I say. He stops dead in his tracks at about 25-30 feet away. Then he shuffles forward a few steps and I spray. He stops again. I know he's out of range. I think he knows he's out of range, but he is sure now that I do have pepper spray and I'm willing to use it. He steps back, looks at me for a few seconds and walks away saying, "You have a nice day." 

My experience with situations like this causes me to think the guy was armed with a knife and maybe a club concealed under the raincoat. It's possible but not likely he had a handgun. I sure as heck wasn't going to let him get close enough to use a weapon without paying the price of a face full of pepper spray. Have you ever heard of the LEO's 21' rule?

I like pepper spray. It's a good, non-lethal self-defense tool that keeps some distance between you and the threat. It caused the guy to back away. That's all I wanted anyway. 

And yes I was legally carrying a concealed handgun. But to draw it even if I didn't point it at the guy may have escalated the situation needlessly. And I may have been accused of brandishing a firearm. 

Moral: Keep your eyes open and carry a non-lethal self-defense tool in addition to whatever else you may carry. The non-lethal tool may be all you need to get you back on your way.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Totally unacceptable to do in Canada.

I am concerned for you. 

While you may have prevented something there was no actual threat, especially if you don't even know what he said.

Obviously I wasn't there but based upon the parameters you would get charged in Canada.




Here is how it should play out in Canada. You are creeped out, you walk into the C-store with your wife. If dude loiters around your vehicle you call the cops. If he brandishes a weapon you can defend yourself if you can't flee but usingpepper spray can get you charged (stupid law Canada is horrible for self defence you can only use a gun and only if police can't protect you from a known credible threat)


Totally a waste of pepper spray IMO.


IMO it was a paranoid response.


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## CourtSwagger (Jan 3, 2013)

SecTec - sounds to me like you felt the need to protect your wife and yourself. You also did so in a way that did not harm anyone. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what you did. Great job on being aware and prepared.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

CourtSwagger said:


> SecTec - sounds to me like you felt the need to protect your wife and yourself. You also did so in a way that did not harm anyone. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what you did. Great job on being aware and prepared.


It wasn't battery but without a reasonable threat it would still likely be midourmenor assault at 25 ft.

I don't know what state you were in but someone walking in your direction is not a threat it is a potential threat. You didn't see a weapon. A better response would be to tell the guy he is scaring you and you request he not come closer.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

In my opinion you can never be to safe. Whatever your particular laws are I will err on the side of caution every time. I carry concealed everywhere I go. The wife and I were at Wal Mart recently and a white male I recognized as a crack addict that one of my Officers arrested a week earlier was approaching us from behind a parked semi. He looked left and right as he walked and his hands were in his pockets. My assumption was that he was visually looking for witnesses before he did whatever it was he originally intended to do, most likely rob us. I bladed my stance with my weapon side to my car so he couldn't see me put my hand on my Glock. When he was still about 20 feet away I said in my usual loud voice, "That's close enough, do you need something?" He turned and ran away. My wife had picked up on what was happening and had her door open ready to grab her Khar CW9. 

Do whatever you want but a person I don't know is not getting that cozy with me. Big deal if you wasted some pepper spray. You are supposed to test it anyway and that is exactly what I would tell the cops.


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## CourtSwagger (Jan 3, 2013)

Will2 - you are certainly entitled to your opinions. If I feel that there is a threat to my wife or myself, then I will take action. Informing someone that they are scaring me? Seriously? Requesting that someone not come any closer is not going to be one of my actions. SecTec21 did not produce a firearm and open fire. He didn't even spray the guy with pepper spray. He made it clear that he and his wife were not prey. He may have saved their lives OR he may have overreacted. Either way, he trusted his gut and acted. I, for one, will not sit by and pass judgement on him and make ridiculous statements like "I am concerned for you," or accuse him of being paranoid. I will reiterate my previous thought. Great job being aware and prepared. Also, I dont live in Canada, and can assure you that in my neck of the woods, there would be absolutely no charges discussed.


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## SecTec21 (Jul 27, 2013)

I feel I was acting correctly as defined by a "use of force continuum." What is that? Google it. 

I established a presence by getting out of the car. The guy kept coming. I issued a verbal warning. The guy kept coming but with a slight hesitation. Try that slight hesitation on a LEO and see what happens. I'm not well practiced with empty hand submission techniques or hard control techniques, so I jumped to intermediate weapons (pepper spray). If that didn't stop him, I had lethal force I could use.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

CourtSwagger said:


> Will2 - you are certainly entitled to your opinions. If I feel that there is a threat to my wife or myself, then I will take action. Informing someone that they are scaring me? Seriously? Requesting that someone not come any closer is not going to be one of my actions. SecTec21 did not produce a firearm and open fire. He didn't even spray the guy with pepper spray. He made it clear that he and his wife were not prey. He may have saved their lives OR he may have overreacted. Either way, he trusted his gut and acted. I, for one, will not sit by and pass judgement on him and make ridiculous statements like "I am concerned for you," or accuse him of being paranoid. I will reiterate my previous thought. Great job being aware and prepared. Also, I dont live in Canada, and can assure you that in my neck of the woods, there would be absolutely no charges discussed.


taking action doesn't need to be use of weapons, just saying, you could have verbally communicated first. Now if he continued to approach and you say stop get away or you'll be sprayed after not responding to the polite request informing him you see him as a threat to your safety. You know I consider it an unneeded escalation. What if he was armed? If he saw your use of pepper spray as dangerous to him and he has a CCW permit and was armed e might be justified to defend himself. What if it was an undercover cop? You try to spray a cop you could find yourself in a load of trouble. Verbalization is a vital first step to assess if the person is reasonable and sound of mind. Racially and class profiling someone is really sketchy. After the verbal cautions if he continued to approach then bringing out the spray could be justified in some areas. Generally though without him displaying a weapon and no battery occurring bringing in the pepper is a world of legal problems being introduced.

Personally my impression was he may have been pan handling, and if you didn't report this to police after the event you are in the wrong because you don't think the guy is really a threat to the public. Otherwise you would have reported the incident. If you are unable to because you are afraid you will get into trouble common sense says you took an illegal course of action.

Its your call but from your post you were racially motivated so it was a hate crime also most likely.

The end of the day you felted throated so it is all OK for you I understand that, but there is a difference between a threat and a suspicion.

Yeah it is jurisdictional but he discharged a weapon in someone's direction, even pointing a weapon at someone is assault.
May be fine in your neck but here someone walking in your direction is not grounds to discharge pepper spray at someone or coerce someone to take an action under threat of battery.

The fact you let this danger walk away shows they wernt a danger and you didn't feel this guy was really a threat to your safety.

Sorry but the response was really faulty, IMO.

Sorry for being critical but it was totally overkill to discharge in someone's direction, or leave a noxious substance at a gas station where other people could become injured by it if not cleaned up properly. There are other dimensions. in a state of riot or where attacks are occurring more reasonable but nothing was identified that was an actual threat.

Have you contacted the cops about the attempted violent attack?

Bottom line is by deploying a weapon it escalates the situation to a breach of the peace. Someone is on the hook at that point either you are justified and he is criminal or you arnt and you are criminal.

There are misunderstandings but not taking the opportunity to verbally engage is a fail.

Of course you are entitled and are responsible for your opinion. Such is the world. If you sprayed me for walking in your direction you would be in deep trouble. If someone left pepper spray discharge in my driveway I would be very pissed off.

This guy wasn't on your property you have no authority to threaten force to effect their mobility.

That is coercion.

Where is the assault and where is the arrest for assault?

You are just letting some robber walk free so they can seriously injure someone. I am calling your bluff.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

The expert is here....
You did good, and everyone is safe.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Will2, while I agree with your comments, I'll side with SecTec21. 
Therefore I guess I should feel lucky that I haven't been placed in this kind of situation.
Especially at my age. There is no way I could have won a knock down, drag out fight
with anyone today. I'd have to pray that I could withdraw my firearm in time.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

It was not inline with the use of force contiuum because there was no actual threat, look it up. Walking in a public place is not violence. You cannot discern violence for someone saying something unknown. You were not following the use of force and if you think you are kindly look into it more because I think you are needlessly causing a public menace due to paranoia.

I've done multiple security courses teaching the use of force so no it wasn't justified, IMO.

Report the incident if you were legal


Note the national use of force methodologies used in canada are essentially the same and based off of the ones in the US.


I'll say again I wasn't there but I would not have deployed pepper spray without first verbally engaging them. Creating space or going into the store. I won't play like a broken record but there was no reason to use nonlethal force on a non assaultive passive individual.


You clearly don't know the use of force paradigm. Verbal escalation would have been the appropriate response in the continuum not deployment of a weapon.


I have people walking into me, and I'm not spraying them. Anyone of them could be armed but until I see a knife I can't go chuck Norris on them, its that simple. The general line is you use proportional force unless you are making an arrest. 

If the guy was going to do something where is the attempted arrest?


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

SecTec21 said:


> I feel I was acting correctly as defined by a "use of force continuum." What is that? Google it.
> 
> I established a presence by getting out of the car. The guy kept coming. I issued a verbal warning. The guy kept coming but with a slight hesitation. Try that slight hesitation on a LEO and see what happens. I'm not well practiced with empty hand submission techniques or hard control techniques, so I jumped to intermediate weapons (pepper spray). If that didn't stop him, I had lethal force I could use.


In regard to your warning what was it?

I am going to spray you if you exercise your libertes?

Try communicating your are threatened by the action.

Issuing an order without lawful authority is not reasonable.

I can understand your position but I consider it non civil action without justified cause.

End of the day it is your life and your cchoice ut I don't agree with your actions whatever that is worth, and I suggest you look up verbal requests in thee scalation process, and insure you are lawfully justified to infringe peoples rights for lawful actions. You arnt.

Your call.

We will never know if the guy was armed or intended to attack you because you let the threat walk away.

A responsible person would act to prevent future crime by alerting publicssafety officials or making an arrest. My guess is without reasonable belief in a crime in progress you acted unlawfully. If it was an attempted crime where are the cops or the arrest.

Or how is this getting into your vehicle locking the doors and rolling up the windows and waiting for them to walk on by.

Next take out your cell and be prepared to call 911 if you got one. 9 for walking toward you. A 1 for engaging you and the last one if they try to get into your vehicle.

What about having your local police on auto dial in your phone?

You chose an assaultive solution when the was no clear and present danger.

1st amendment
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_and_present_danger


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

first of all, wile wil2 is entitled to his or her opinion - I would take what ever they say as a grain of salt. I believe that's the one already in a situation with the law. So I suggest you stop giving suggestions on legal matters. You and I pal were not there so we do not know the situation at hand or the conditions.
now telling someone I have spray and if you come any closer I will spray you is a warning a good one in my opinion, and like even a mentally challenged person would do stop and walk in the preferable the opposite direction you are. *But No* this gentleman continued on his course ignoring the warning.

I would say You did a great job and deserve a pat on the back and a stiff drink, cheers.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

What about having your local police on auto dial in your phone? 
When seconds matter, police are only minutes away!


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Will2 said:


> It was not inline with the use of force contiuum because there was no actual threat, look it up. Walking in a public place is not violence. You cannot discern violence for someone saying something unknown. You were not following the use of force and if you think you are kindly look into it more because I think you are needlessly causing a public menace due to paranoia.
> 
> I've done multiple security courses teaching the use of force so no it wasn't justified, IMO.
> 
> ...


LOL LOL LOL
Go back to teaching sheeple to be sheeple and dont bitch when your society fails.


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## topgun (Oct 2, 2013)

You get an "A" for situational awareness.
You get an "F" for using spray when he was out of range.

If he did have a gun, you'd be dead now. Not sure if your wife would have survived.

You say you were armed with a gun, but if you were holding a can of spray, he would have got the drop on you.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I was lured to a crime by a criminal mumbling something so I would come closer then again so I would come closer still. I was just a young lad and didn't know better. I would of felt very suspicious towards this person. Your never wrong for protecting yourself and property even when when canadian law says otherwise. There is no law that takes away my right to safety and freedom. We have a saying - better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I would renounce the sovereignty of my nation before I would let them tell me I'm wrong for protected ting my loved ones and myself from harm. Especially when or if nobody was harmed or just the perpetrator was.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

All's well that ends well I suppose. If I don't have a gun, then I'm going for my pepper spray, but if I have a gun thats where my hand goes. I've never been approached at a gas station by someone wanting to talk about the weather or baseball. Most people who loiter at gas stations and approach people who are pumping gas are panhandling or looking for other "opportunities". 

There is this one gas station that I frequent who has a mentally ill guy who sits outside by the ice machine every day. The attendant says he lives nearby but comes to the store almost every day for a number of years and just sits there. She said he's harmless and never approaches people. Sometimes I buy a coke and give it to him. 

And Will2, Canada has socialist healthcare, please get back on your meds. Thanks


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

The guy could have been up to no good. Hard to say. 

Sometimes a hard look and a "That's close enough" in a command voice will do the trick without the threat. Never show or disclose you have a weapon. The guy could call the police and report he had been threatened by a man with pepper spray. Then when the police find you with the spray, it looks credible to them. Your word against his. Put the car between you and him, if possible. Remember to check your six in a potential robbery situation. These guys seldom work alone. JMHO.

I think you did okay. Stay stafe.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I love that socialist healthcare pump the US media dumped on us. It's far from. We pay a premium through our taxes. Which is why we are taxed at 13%. We pay for it. The issue is we are not really given a choice. But then the issue is no matter what ails you your given the best. My last doctor visit cost me $8. And that was for the dispensing fee at the drug store. I see a cardiologist yearly get yearly physicals have clean healthy teeth and bi annual bloodwork. And it's all covered. Some complain about wait times. It's on a critical first basis. Your fever can wait another hour if someone is dying right now. In this me mine me world we live in - which disgusts me - I see how things look that way. But Canada has always right from its start been this way. 

My issue with Canada is its legal system and the bleeding heart syndrome towards criminals. That freak who cut off the head of an innocent passenger on the greyhound is out free. And me with following every legal path gets a weekly background check to insure I'm being a good boy because I own pistols for sporting purposes. We got some sH:7 backwards no doubt. But healthcare is far from commie and one of the great things we have here.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Tactical Canuck,

I was just messing with Will. No offense against Canada. I like hockey.

Your pal, 
Slip


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

I would never carry a lethal AND non-lethal defense tool at the same time.

If you shoot them first, then you may have court issues because you didn't use the pepper spray first.
If you shoot them second, then you just shot a man that was pepper-sprayed and at a disadvantage.

In either case pepper-spray or the gun has added bulk, heft, and legal issues. Pick one and carry it.


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## Protect this House (Aug 12, 2013)

Who the hell makes their wife pump her own gas? If you identified something out of the norm, you should have either pumped your self or went to another gas station. You were out of line on multiple actions...


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Even in Canada, there are by-laws governing pan handlers. I think one of them is they are not allowed to approach you. They must sit off to the side, and ask your assistance as you walk by.

Such a by-law supports the citizen that feels threatened, and takes defensive actions.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I have a little can of pepper spray that I carry. It has a little carbon fiber holder and you have to twist the top to deploy it. It deployed all over my butt cheek at a Mexican restaurant after I sat down. My ass was on fire and I doubt they will ever let me back. The luminescent dye they put in it doesn't wash out of a nice pair of khakis either.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Csi-Tech, I like your "That is close enough, is there anything you need?" 

It sounds authoritative, non threatening, and it doesn't show weakness like "I'm feeling threaten...". 

more of a comment for everyone, but this was the verbal interaction that will2 is talking about.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

The thing about saying you are feeling threatened empowers you to act if it continues. If you arnt a cop you do not have authority to issue orders on property that is not yours or you do not have lawful authority over. So issuing an order without providing the basis of an order would open you to civil suit and criminal charges in many places. It really wasn't clearly imminent danger IMO from what you described.

Someone 25 ft away and you can't even hear them ain't much of a threat
I agree with the verbalization but providing grounds to follow up if required makes way more sense than using an unlawful order. Now if the guy were on your property instead of at a gas station the empowerment to act or issue orders changes. But without a battery most States would not legally permit use of pepper spray. Some may do so at time of assault, however, the key is establishing g criminal intent, if feloneous then you may be empowered to arrest them depending on your states statutes. 


That is why indicating you are threatened by their actions is good as it clarifies the situation. He wasn't obligated to stop at law.


I understand the basis of preemptive assault but not liking someone's look is not sufficient to attack someone pretty much every place I know that is civilized. I think the basis is really criminal and that is why it needs to be said. People could get into a lot of trouble deploying on a non asssaultive individual. Or using coercion.


I know that being all Gung ho floats peoples boats but it can also appear as paranoid to preemptively assault someone on suspicion rather than it being actual.

It is basically picking a fight and violating others rights to do the shoot first ask questions later basis.

1. You don't know, you can protect your self but that protection shouldn't be an attack on someone else until the threat is verified.

The guy was still acting lawfully.



It looks bad especially if the place has video cameras.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

Slippy said:


> Tactical Canuck,
> 
> I was just messing with Will. No offense against Canada. I like hockey.
> 
> ...


No worries Slip! I've heard that term before in the news and we just kinda shake our head. Of course the business of healthcare wants your money why would they want to allow such a change? When you have to pay them for decades to save your butt sell your home and take second jobs to keep the money rolling into them why on earth would they want a fair equal healthcare system!? We have brain drain here as our doctors migrate south to open practices with great regularity. One Beemer isn't enough they need to color match their Luis Vuitton luggage when they travel. There are doctors who care and then there are business men in white coats. I'm glad to see them go. Worship of the dollar is something that has broken our continent.


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## turbo6 (Jun 27, 2014)

No


GTGallop said:


> I would never carry a lethal AND non-lethal defense tool at the same time.
> 
> If you shoot them first, then you may have court issues because you didn't use the pepper spray first.
> If you shoot them second, then you just shot a man that was pepper-sprayed and at a disadvantage.
> ...


There's nothing wrong with having both. There was a case of lawful self defense in FL a few years back where a guy walked up to car and assaulted the driver.

The driver initially pepper sprayed him, but when the attack continued he drew pistol and fired.

The police noted his initial use of non lethal force and when it failed they sided with him and he walked free.

I like pepper spray but it's effectiveness has a lot of variables. With that said I have used it before against an aggressive drunk when I was younger and it worked fine but there's no guarantee. Even so it's not a bad choice if you don't/can't carry a firearm.

Plus, I like having the option of both a pistol and spray when dog walking... I don't necessarily want to kill a animal so at least I can evaluate the situation and decide accordingly.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

In Canada, the rules governing self defense factor in fear. I am not a toughguy and I'm not trained in any way for self defense. It is more reasonable for me to be fearful of a stranger.

If I see a man loitering nearby. He's figiting and behaving a bit agitated or restless. He looks at me several times, looks away, then finally decides to approach me. He fails to say anything friendly at a loud enough volume for me to hear.His hands are going in and out of his pockets. Then I say "that is close enough, do you need anything?" He still doesn't verbally make contact with me. Then he shuffles a couple steps closer as if to test my resolve.

If all this happened, I'd be 'fearful' and I think it is reasonable to be fearful.

*Has he taken all reasonable steps, to indicate that his intentions are friendly? absolutely not! And that will be my defense.*


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

I take stuff like this seriously -make that guy a statistic and not you. 20/20 is easy to look back with -it has been said again and again- It would be a different story if the man stabbed the crap out of the op and raped his wife on the gas pump, now wouldn't it. Criminals wouldn't be criminals if they obeyed laws, you got to watch out for your own ass-and for those that say dial 911 sure, but it will take how long for the police to get there/ long enough for that guy to make kitty litter out of both the op and his wife. As for Canada ? was he in Canada? no, so who cares about what you can or can not do there- the op had a freaking creepy, scary experience and may have doubt about his actions - I'll tell you now dude, and I'll tell you later -You did awesome :bow:


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

I'm not going to second guess or comment on what you did other than to say; if I ever have to deploy any sort weapon I'm on the phone with the police ASAP to get my side of the story on record.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Hemi45 said:


> I'm not going to second guess or comment on what you did other than to say; if I ever have to deploy any sort weapon I'm on the phone with the police ASAP to get my side of the story on record.


your better off getting a lawyer to protect you from the police. If your involved in a shooting of any sort never give a statement without legal counsel.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Will2, you sound like a lawyer, and that makes me worry. If you're not a lawyer, that scares me.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Protect this House said:


> Who the hell makes their wife pump her own gas? If you identified something out of the norm, you should have either pumped your self or went to another gas station. You were out of line on multiple actions...


Brother? How are you typing; I visited your grave just not too long ago!


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Will2 said:


> ...If you arnt a cop you do not have authority to issue orders on property that is not yours or you do not have lawful authority over...I agree with the verbalization but providing grounds to follow up if required makes way more sense than using an unlawful order. Now if the guy were on your property instead of at a gas station the empowerment to act or issue orders changes.


I agree with you, Will2, that threatening to pepper spray someone is a bad idea. But I never heard of any law that says you must be on your own property to defend yourself. You aren't issuing an unlawful order, you are defending yourself. Self defense is preeminent.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

It doesn't matter who's property you are on. You are not required to issue a warning, retreat, fire a warning shot, use less lethal alternatives or anything. As a citizen all I have to do is prove that I, or another human were placed in fear of serious bodily injury or death by the actions of another. What that person is doing doesn't even have to be felonious. Their action can be reckless or negligent and I can still use lethal force.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Sounds like you done good to me. The way I was taught the continuum of force works like this:
1. Verbal
2. Soft hands
3. Pepper spray
4. ASP
5. Gun.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Apples to a**holes he was panhandling. Overreaction. However you are both ok, and he didn't get hurt either, so I guess no harm, no foul.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Perception is reality. We all weren't there. We all have different life stories, ie: seen this before, know what's about to happen next. The laws are so messed up, stacked in favor of the bad guy. Human intuition takes over in cases like these. If you feel threatened, you respond accordingly, or to your ability. I told my daughter once that I would jump in front of a train to protect her, she still remembers that. We do what we need to do to protect ourselves and those we love. jmo. Right or wrong!


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Just a word to slippy and medic33

No I am not in a situation with the law, I am finishing post secondary exams and doing Panam games security training this week then driving home.

I have no medical condition that require "meds". I am recovering from a broken toe, my only present health concern.


Kindly stop making rude and offensive defamatory statements a d keep the posts on topic instead of lobbing attacks at people as trolls do. Learn some manners I have recorded your posts and if they continue legal action against you for harassment and defamation will be pursued. You have been warned.


Stop flaming, and stop making false or misleading statements about myself and my character.


You can not agree with what I say but lying about myself and creating a false image to perform character assassination is offensive and criminal behaviour. Stop the dirty tricks.


Slippy your repeated ad hominem attacks are unacceptable, and medic33 you are casting me in a false light, stop. Don't even reply to or mention me in your posts if you can't make truthful non offensive posts.


If I go around calling you both pedofiles and making false statements about your activities, are you going to think that is totally acceptable, hell no so stop casting me in a false light.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

If it's too hot in the kitchen, get out of the kitchen. jmo.


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## CourtSwagger (Jan 3, 2013)

Legal action on a forum where people come to discuss varying opinions. Really? I am going to follow your advice, Will 2. 

STOP IT. YOU ARE SCARING ME.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

It must be true, I read it on the internet!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

_* Just a word to slippy and medic33

No I am not in a situation with the law, I am finishing post secondary exams and doing Panam games security training this week then driving home.

I have no medical condition that require "meds". I am recovering from a broken toe, my only present health concern.

Kindly stop making rude and offensive defamatory statements a d keep the posts on topic instead of lobbing attacks at people as trolls do. Learn some manners I have recorded your posts and if they continue legal action against you for harassment and defamation will be pursued. You have been warned.

Stop flaming, and stop making false or misleading statements about myself and my character.

You can not agree with what I say but lying about myself and creating a false image to perform character assassination is offensive and criminal behaviour. Stop the dirty tricks.

Slippy your repeated ad hominem attacks are unacceptable, and medic33 you are casting me in a false light, stop. Don't even reply to or mention me in your posts if you can't make truthful non offensive posts.

If I go around calling you both pedofiles and making false statements about your activities, are you going to think that is totally acceptable, hell no so stop casting me in a false light. 
*_​


_* Last edited by Will2; Today at 10:27 AM. *_​


_*You like this.*_


Actually Will, that was much more than a "word". But seriously, you have to admit you are one messed up dude. Having said that you're "OUR MESSED UP DUDE" and we all love you and want you to be happy and healthy.

Your friend, 
Slippy

PS Did you mean to post this in the Ladies Only section?


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

That's funny stuff!! I don't care who you are!!
PS Did you mean to post this in the Ladies Only section?


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

:bs: :rant:


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Just the other day me and Mrs Slippy were debating something...she said no way in hell would the Pan Am Games Security Department hire a "Legally minded gimp with a busted toe who has completed post secondary exams and can drive while not on his meds"... I win.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

You guys be nice to him or he'll tell his Mom on you!


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

No I am not a messed up dude, I am a prepper. Having discussion is one thing turning a gun on someone in that discussion is another. Idiot police use forums like these to gather evidence, you guys making false statements about me can have real effect. Cops up here do use its on the internet it must be true so I am again going to politely request you stop commenting on myself whatsoever because you are not accurately portraying me or my situation. You are introducing damages. It is not funny or joke, stick to the topic, do not launch ad hominem attacks on me.

It disgustingly serious, stop.

Stop flaming.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

well, you know , when I was a kid I had a dream.

I wanted to learn to play the tuba,
so I could play circus music in the bathtub.
but since your so wise and smart could you tell me how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop?


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

It's been a long time since I've had to issue one of these. Will2 please fill this out and return it to Denton.

P.S. my Chinese friend told me Operation bump into Will2 on the sidewalk is still running. So you're not a paranoid as you think. Remember, their biggest weakness is pepper spray so make sure to get a can. Be safe buddy I got your back.


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

thank you so much for making me spit coffee all over my keyboard. lmao.


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## CourtSwagger (Jan 3, 2013)

Well, I think that we can all safely say that plan backfired.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Ark,

I heard that they have activated the next phase of Operation Bump into Will..


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

OK. What say we play nice, huh?

While it is entertaining to watch the twisting of the tails of those who dangle them out there for all to grab, everyone has to admit that it isn't very sporting.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm sorry.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm sorry -
wait slippy get out me head, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I just sent some of you a "Mind Message" Did you get it?


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

I need to go to Menards for honey-do stuff. check back in later.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Here's a little trick I employ when I don't want to get out and "honey do"

I pour a big old glass of alcohol and when Mrs Slippy says I have to go to the Home Depot I just shake my head and say, "No can do honey, I've already had a couple of these. No drinking and driving sweetie!"

Works ever time....like today!


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Is it common for it to be illegal to make threats of legal action where yall live. I know they dont like that much where I live. 
Anyways what kinda self defense courses do you guys take. Anyone teach and what are the requirements to be an instructor. Looking to build supplemental income while I turn the farm operations up. Only 2 years from getting out.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

ApexPredator,

I can answer part 1 of your question. Where I live (I'm just a little north of you) when some douchebag whines and cries and says they are going to sue someone, they get laughed at. If it persists they get taken out behind the bar and someone whips the shit out of them. They usually stop their whining. 

As far as teaching, I can't answer that but I like the idea. I was looking at taking a welding class at a local community college. I worked with a welder one summer and he taught me the basics but that was way back in the early 80's. I figured I needed a refresher course. My hands and nerves were much steadier then... :joyous:

Hey, question for you...you were going to dig a well a while back, did you find water at a reasonable depth? How's the farmstead going?

Slip


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Watch out guys we got ourselves a bad A** over here! 
Sorry Will. You, in as far as this post is concerned. Have failed miserably. Aside from the hilarity of claiming intent to persue legal action, which you have not done after your alleged crimes took place (that's called a threat which is also legally actionable), there is also the issue of president. If you were as legally suave as you claim you would know there is significant legal president to back anyone defending against your wild accusations. Aside frome not even having the correct "charge." Lible is the word you seek. Lastly, you are making yourself sound 1000 times worse than you are accusing others of making you sound. You have officially presented yourself as a pouty child, teary eyed and vengeful, seeking a mommy to come and save you from the bad man who took your lolipop.

But there is hope! You can redeem yourself. You can quietly slip away into the night, discontinuing your failed attempt at a pissing match. You can take your ribbing as it comes like a responsible adult. You can realize that by putting yourself out there you will be called out on your bullsh*t, even when your bullsh*t isn't bullsh*t. you can realize that, when everyone else closes their browser window, they will forget about you at the same time. You can do the same instead of stewing in a pot of your own self inflicted misery, pondering those big meanies on the Internet for hours on end.

You can simply click the red "X", stand up, walk away, and enjoy your day. That's how the rest of us do it, and we are, for the most part, happy people living fulfilling lives.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Welp the farmstead is going although its more farm than anything right now. I had plans to buy a CEB machine and start building structures but the guy sold it to someone else. The well is 132ft deep and honestly it worked well I imagine you could go another 80 to 100 ft with that system but it will get harder, we reached that depth in three days of drilling 4-8 hours not sure how much in all (due to setbacks on our part) its not at all labor intensive just slow. Before I left it was up to 30-35gpm (undeveloped) or so I couldn't measure it very well and then theres adjusting the air pressure to get optimal flow honestly they fill the 250gal holding tank in about 10 minutes give or take, it has a six in casing (this was necessary to drill it sand kept percolating all the damn water away) all the way down and a 1 and a 1/2 pipe channeling air/water up so I am pretty sure I could really increase that flow rate but I don't need to at this time or spend another 800$ on a submersible pump but I will prolly rig up my jet pump when I get back. PM me if you got more questions. Just looking for side jobs an ex Green Beret Medical Sargent can do while the farm spins up and finish out my degree there always hard labor .


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

All this talk of alleged perps got me to thinking I am fresh out of pepper spray. Thanks to a chubby ex co worker who was supposed to bring me some but aint showed up yet..so based on some rumors floating around I tasked the little Wifey to snag us a big can of wasp and hornet spray from the hardware store. Doing a little last miniute research on the efficacy of such a thing..it sounds like it might be a good plan. Snopes tried to give it a bad rap but I think they were more concerned about hurting the evil doer who gets sprayed.

snopes.com: Wasp Spray for Self-Defense?


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Interesting. I see this as potentially being a far superior alternative. Not just range and accuracy, actually, not for those reasons at all.

Pepper spray gets into everything. It stings long after it needs to on every surface. If you use it indoors, it lingers. If the person you spray reaches you, you become contaminated as well. Foams can be thrown back at you, cones and fogs are only effective if you are up wind, or wearing a gas mask. Streams splash, and at close range that backslash can be like spraying yourself.

Seems wasp spray won't have those issues. 

I carry pepper spray, but for dogs, not really for people.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Secondary thought... you can't pepper spray a wasp, so that makes this another multipurpose tool.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Wasp spray ain't sheet. Last year I was up on a ladder and saw a wasp nest. I grabbed some wasp spray and climbed back up, sprayed the nest and got a facefull of wasp spray in the process. It did not hurt one bit, only left a crappy taste in my mouth that pissed me off.


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## CourtSwagger (Jan 3, 2013)

I don't trust Snopes. I used to refer to them, but now, I think they have some definite political leanings. Maybe it is just my biased opinion....


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

That, and when anyone refers to wikipedia. How can you trust a site that allows you to edit "facts".


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Possibly only certain brands? Did you get a lot in your eyes slippy?


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

I agree with not trusting Snopes. They are about as Left Wing as the Boy King. I best go track down some more links on that...especially since Slippy's inadvertent scientific evaluation. Ok..this guy seems to agree with him. 
http://oklahomapersonaldefense.com/waspspraymyth.html


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

I don't mind the wasps out hear they all be on like happy gas or something -heck even the yellow jackets are like mellow jackets weird.
now to stay on topic - the op was darn tooting right -way to go .


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

> intent to persue legal action, which you have not done after your alleged crimes took place (that's called a threat which is also legally actionable), there is also the issue of president. If you were as legally suave as you claim you would know there is significant legal president to back anyone defending against your wild accusations. Aside frome not even having the correct "charge." Lible is the word you seek. Lastly, you are making yourself sound 1000 times worse than you are accusing others of making you sound. You have officially presented yourself as a pouty child, teary eyed and vengeful, seeking a mommy to come and save you from the bad man who took your lolipop.
> 
> But there is hope! You can redeem yourself. You can quietly slip away into the night, discontinuing your failed attempt at a pissing match. You can take your ribbing as it comes like a responsible adult. You can realize that by putting yourself out there you will be called out on your bullsh*t, even when your bullsh*t isn't bullsh*t. you can realize that, when everyone else closes their browser window, they will forget about you at the same time. You can do the same instead of stewing in a pot of your own self inflicted misery, pondering those big meanies on the Internet for hours on end.
> 
> You can simply click the red "X", stand up, walk away, and enjoy your day. That's how the rest of us do it, and we are, for the most part, happy people living fulfilling lives.


Jakthesoilder whatever your real name is
Learn the law and refrain from communicating directly with me or commenting about me in anyway for the rest of your life.

You have no grasp of harassment laws or defamation or DMCA violations so just bugger off and save the world the trouble of listening to another idiot troll flame baiting.

I don't have to take defamatory attacks, and painting of me, attacks on my reputation, and lies about my actions and intents. People who have decency don't lie about people nor do they gang attack people on web forums. That is behaviour of scumbags.

You know my view so kindly stop communicating with or about me, and do yourself a favour and learn the law on harassment and defamation. I've heard this same position from jerks before and no defamation is not acceptable and nets talking and criminal harassment are not OK. If you people keep this up you will get your but in court, if you continue in jail.

I have addressed this, and this is clear you entire intent is a flame, I'll end this here with a warning. I will continue to escalate as necessary.

What's the crime Jak? Maybe you know. I will dam well involve the police once I feel that the harassment is criminal. For now I am at a point of pursuing civil defamation and copyright violations if defamatory comments are kept online by people such as slippy. These are not threats they are realities. Get a hint and realize lying about people online isn't a joke, it is disgusting idiotic behaviour that amounts to fraud and harassment if persistent. It ain't good in anyway and you should realize Losers flame not mature people. If you arnt intending to flame realize that you are being highly offensive and uncivil.

I will repeat stop communicating with me or about me Jak, you have been warned.

Sorry but your advice is seen as idiotic I don't follow idiotic advice I stand up for my lawful rights I don't let satanist jerks spread lies about me in front of my face.

Its not acceptable conduct, it is vicious depraved behaviour that only scum partakes in.

Its about me. People don't lie about me, and attack my character and I watch it. You will feel the full force of any lawful act I can unleash on you and others who taint my reputation. Stop.


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## CourtSwagger (Jan 3, 2013)

Seriously.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Hey Will2, did you fill out that form? I heard from my cousins friends girlfriends uncle that preparationH really helps with butthurt. Just sayin.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

So I just spoke to my lawyer. He said, and I quote, "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHQHAHHA"


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Slippy did you ever answer how much you got in your eyes?


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Jakthesoldier (or whatever your real name is :smug,

I probably only got a one or two second blast of wasp spray in my face so maybe an ounce or two in my eyes and nose area. It was unpleasant but not disabling. I wouldn't trust using wasp spray to fend off an attack unless it was a last resort.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

What about running it passed a lighter on the way to the BG?


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

You handled the situation perfectly I would have done the same thing.


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## Stick (Sep 29, 2014)

Reminds me of a story (how many times have I said that?). In the mid-late '70's Shooting Times magazine had a one-paragraph nod each month to the Dumb Crook of the Month. In one story, a guy was sitting in his car reading a magazine in the parking lot of the hospital one night waiting for his wife to get off work. A scruffy, disreputable-looking male approached the car with a tire iron, stopped just outside the car and waved it menacingly. The driver turned the magazine he was reading into the light so that the would-be perp could see the 1911 gracing the cover of Shooting Times. The perp turned and hurried away


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Just remember if you do have to pull a gun it helps to only have one side of the story plus a nice drop gun, I mean backup is always handy.
Your funny will2.


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## PatriotFlamethrower (Jan 10, 2015)

Here is how Barack Obama would respond to this:

"This situation is obviously an unnecessary response by a racist white man. This African-American man displayed no weapon and was simply walking around in a public area. This innocent man was assaulted with pepper spray by a stereotypical white person, who overreacted to a harmless situation, much like what my white grandmother did many years ago. I have asked Attorney General Eric Holder to further investigate this situation, and pursue civil rights charges against this racist white man."


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## jdbushcraft (Mar 26, 2015)

I still haven't figured out what the threat was. Neither has the op since he called it a "possible" threat. From the telling, he would have been equally justified in peppering you, if not more so. You were, after all, the only one to make an aggressive act. He's under no obligation to follow your demands.


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## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

Had something similar happen to me today. 

Went junkyarding AGAIN, but in a sh!thole called rubidoux. 

Was at a gas station. Got out to go pay for gas. Guy asks me "is that a dodge?" I reply "yeah". But I'm hacking and coughing. I'm burning up. I can feel a fever coming on. 

I go pay, hobble outside, start pumping. He comes up to the opposite side/passenger corner of my truck. We shoot the shit for a bit, and he thanks me for talking to him. Weird. I take off. 

Not everything is a threat. Use your own discretion. I was ready to grab something from the bed of my truck (I have tire irons, 2x4's etc, not only on the drivers side). 

Guy was obviously a tweeker. Whatever. All I know is I accidentally left my phone on the seat with a rolled down window, and it stayed put. 

Ymmv!


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

SecTec felt threatened and he acted in the way that he felt was most appropriate given the circumstances. He was well within his rights (at least he would have been in this state). Nobody was hurt and everybody got to go home. I don't know how one can find fault or pass judgment when that is the outcome.


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## jdbushcraft (Mar 26, 2015)

Yeah. A guy...walking 25 feet away... Scary. hide the children.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

People conducting normal business at a gas station are predictable. Those with "other business" aren't hard to spot by those who keep their heads on swivels.

I dare say I am not the only person here who has flipped back their covering shirt in order to check for the wallet while giving the strange acting person a glance. Odd, how the innocently wandering stranger wanders off in another direction.


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## jdbushcraft (Mar 26, 2015)

He could do everything strange in the book. Unless he does something the average person would consider threatening you can't use force.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

With the current epidemic of black on white crime think the smart honky will be well armed and ready to rumble on short notice. 
https://violenceagainstwhites.wordpress.com/the-hate-crimes-you-dont-hear-about/


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

The average person doesn't want you to have a gun and would demand you share preps with them if SHTF so....
You can confront someone visually as well a hard stare is enough to stop alot of people especially if you go all animalistic and square off with them and take an aggressive stance.


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## SGT E (Feb 25, 2015)

Had a buddy pumping gas at a service station late one night in Cincinnati when approached by a lowlife that asked for money. When he said he didn't have any to give the the guy got closer and started cursing him....At 4 feet he got a shot of premium soaking him from the neck down to his sneakers....My buddy pulled out his lighter while replacing the nozzle and said "Wanna know how this is going to end?"

Lowlife left the area quickly and quietly!


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## raggdoll (Mar 20, 2015)

delete


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Only on page five, but, if will2 thinks we make fun of him now, just watch a few of his shirtless YouTube videos, you'll see he is a GENIUS


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## ltcmas (Nov 18, 2014)

Predators look for others less strong to go after.

I agree sec tec21 for taking his actions. But then I CCW and currently live in TX. I grew up in rural ID. In modt of USA, we are allowed to defer or defend.... I have never faced that situation. Not sure how far pepper spray goes but wasp spray goes 20 ft or more and can be a nonlethal defense at a lot less cost. Hair spray is also a deterant. Women are rarely any match against a male. His wife should be given more training. ...what if she had been alone?

Forget what Canada guy says...that country is not much on self defense. Perhaps it is not needed there and life is a bed of roses?

Older people are often targeted. Practice self defense/self preservation to stay well. European type countries are invaded because the people are not able to defend themselves...that includes countries like Canada. Hence countries like Russia move in and take over.

Police can't/won't do anything if no crime is commited......


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

I'm probably getting sued now.
Fun fun


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