# Caliber Question



## Mass Mike (Oct 28, 2013)

Hi all, 
I know that I am adding to an age old debate but I had a question in regards caliber, spec. 9mm. I have read in many places from many folks who would not trust their life to a 9mm pistol but would always opt for .40 or .45ACP as a personal protection caliber. I know that there are folks who post here with significant military or LE experience. I was wondering if anyone has ever seen or heard of someone who was well hit by a 9mm and kept right on coming. I know that we are usually inclined to want the biggest and best of anything, but while I have read many things about people who were down on the 9mm, but I couldn't find much "proof" of it failing to stop a bg where a larger caliber round would have taken care of business. Any thoughts? 
Thanks as always. 
Mike


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

All the BS about 9mm comes military ball ammo. You are not restricted to military ball ammo. SJSP is my choice but HP is also an option. A quality 9mm pistol & you have the option of 9mm +P or +P+. Speed & impact energy exceeding 45ACP & carry more rounds per magazine then either of the other two mentioned calibers.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

The best gun is the one that you have. I do not want to get shot with a BB gun let alone a .50 cal. 

I have long said that if you give me my two young nephews loading a pile of magazines and a Ruger 10/22 I can keep a group of bad guys coming up my driveway from ever reaching my house. That is if they are unarmed or armed with throw away thug guns. However if said thugs are armed with AR 15s or better they will eventually take me out unless I am well covered. Having said that, there is an age old response that a criminal probably ain't gonna stop and care if it is a 9mm, 380, 40, or 45 that shot him.


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

Talking about calibers is like the ak vs ar's and, actually a rifle or a shotgun would be the first thing I would pick up if I could before I would use my pistol.shooting them a little farther out could very well discourage the lot if they see their group going down before they make it even near my door.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

Any handgun round is a lousy stopper. All calibers succeed all calibers fail. I have seen excellent results from a .25 acp (No I don't carry one) I have read of spectacular failures of 9mm and 45 acp. Shot placement is the best predictor of success. Shot placement can be predicted sometimes by the reason some one picked a particular weapon or caliber. If a person picked a 9mm with the idea that "I'll have so many shots I won't have to aim". Expect bad things for him. If a person chose a .45 acp on the premise that "Any hit with this will be fatal". Expect bad things for him. Many things can effect what happens when bullets impact people drugs, mental illness,rage, sense of duty and sheer cussed meanness! Pick a good weapon and caliber that suits your needs and practice till you get hits and keep practicing. Carry on and stay safe.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Just a little food for thought:


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

Interesting video Dave I kind of wonder what difference it would have made if the 9mm was a 115 grain instead of a 147 grain?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

retired guard said:


> Any handgun round is a lousy stopper. All calibers succeed all calibers fail. I have seen excellent results from a .25 acp (No I don't carry one) I have read of spectacular failures of 9mm and 45 acp. Shot placement is the best predictor of success. Shot placement can be predicted sometimes by the reason some one picked a particular weapon or caliber. If a person picked a 9mm with the idea that "I'll have so many shots I won't have to aim". Expect bad things for him. If a person chose a .45 acp on the premise that "Any hit with this will be fatal". Expect bad things for him. Many things can effect what happens when bullets impact people drugs, mental illness,rage, sense of duty and sheer cussed meanness! Pick a good weapon and caliber that suits your needs and practice till you get hits and keep practicing. Carry on and stay safe.


Can't put it much better than that.
About 10 years ago I took some training courses put on by local LEO's. There I learned that a bad guy with a fully oxygenated brain is capable of conscious effort for up to 18 seconds even if you hit him with a fatal shot in the first instant. The only way to get an immediate result was a brain or spinal shot. It was suggested by the instructors to try to hit the pelvic girdle, because if you can break bone there you will most likely stop forward movement.
If I know I'm going to be in a gunfight, I want a rifle.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

Given the quality and options of ammo today, there's no reason not to use a 9mm, 
course there's also no reason not to use 45acp either.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

Those that say shot placement trumps caliber are correct. This doesn't mean caliber has nothing to do with anything. The proponents of 9mm defend it by saying it expands. Well, a .45 doesn't shrink.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

Arizona Infidel said:


> Those that say shot placement trumps caliber are correct. This doesn't mean caliber has nothing to do with anything. The proponents of 9mm defend it by saying it expands. Well, a .45 doesn't shrink.


Yes and since it doesn't shrink you can't get as many in the magazine. They are both good choices carry what you are comfortable with.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Prolly 10mm is better than both.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

But, shot placement in the real world is a matter of luck. Unless you are up against some idiot who doesn't grasp the concept of fire and movement, and just stands there.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I carried a Beretta 92F on duty for a decade. Trusted it implicitly. The military has been carrying them forever. 9mm is a fine choice.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

The 1911 is closer to forever than the M-9


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

9MM will do the job. Nothing inherently wrong with 115gr ball other than it does not sound as cool as 147 gr jack hollow point zombie kill magic bullet


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## indie (Sep 7, 2013)

No way. Just look at The Walking Dead. They consistently get head shots whether they're sitting still or driving 50MPH in a car, so it must be true. You just must not practice enough. :lol:



rice paddy daddy said:


> But, shot placement in the real world is a matter of luck. Unless you are up against some idiot who doesn't grasp the concept of fire and movement, and just stands there.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

I hope the next time I'm shot at that the script writer is on my side.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Im gonna do some 40 S&W bashing here...

Get the 9mm or 45 of your choice that you shoot better. Pistols really kind of suck when it comes to putting someone down for the count real fast. When they do shot placement was usually a more mitigating factor than the caliber used or the bullet design used. The 9 can give you a bit of an advantage due to the much higher capacity over a typical 45 in a more compact package which if your CC might be an issue. But even in the lowley Hardball configuration the 45 ACP has a pretty dang good record for putting the hurt on a bad guy, put one of the better hollow points designed through it though and it can make some pretty big holes.

The 40 S&W is a comprimise round that solve a whole lot of nothing. It came about as a way to achieve the low recoil and modest performance of the FBI's 10mm load allowing for a smaller gun grip on a gun making it easier for those with smaller hands to use. The FBI recruits a lot of females who are petite and smaller in stature and don't have as much hand strength right out the starting gate. About half the men working for the FBI are metrosexuals who never fired a gun until they went to the academy. Having a high grade point average is more important than being a Manly-Man and the ability to preform in physically demanding task! A equal sized gun will hold a few more rounds than a 45 but not nearly as many as the 9. The other advantage the 40 had was any 9mm gun platform that was out would easily allow manufactures to field a new weapon without having to develop a whole new platform around the cartridge with minimal modifications. Its neather beast nor fowl. Its just as expensive as the 45 but considerably smaller in diameter. So what exactly was achieved by the 40 S&W? How many folks argue the merits of the 16 gauge over the 12 or the 20 gauge? Exactly what I thought!


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

One frequently used measure of the effectiveness of a round is muzzle energy. From the Glock owners manual for the standard size Glock: 45 ACP 460 Joules; 10mm, 750 j; 40 S&W, 525; .357 Sig, 765 j; 9mm 520 j 380. The 10mm was developed because the 45 ACP was lacking.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

The 10mm was developed after the Miami shootout involving the FBI, I believe in '89.

The 10mm was designed to meet the FBI protocals.

When the 10 was adopted, the FBI found that a lot of agents, male and female, could not handle the recoil, and at the same time Winchester and Smith&Wesson were developing a new round, the 40s&w. 
The 40 met the protocals, and could be shot effectively by all.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> Im gonna do some 40 S&W bashing here...
> 
> Get the 9mm or 45 of your choice that you shoot better. Pistols really kind of suck when it comes to putting someone down for the count real fast. When they do shot placement was usually a more mitigating factor than the caliber used or the bullet design used. The 9 can give you a bit of an advantage due to the much higher capacity over a typical 45 in a more compact package which if your CC might be an issue. But even in the lowley Hardball configuration the 45 ACP has a pretty dang good record for putting the hurt on a bad guy, put one of the better hollow points designed through it though and it can make some pretty big holes.
> 
> The 40 S&W is a comprimise round that solve a whole lot of nothing. It came about as a way to achieve the low recoil and modest performance of the FBI's 10mm load allowing for a smaller gun grip on a gun making it easier for those with smaller hands to use. The FBI recruits a lot of females who are petite and smaller in stature and don't have as much hand strength right out the starting gate. About half the men working for the FBI are metrosexuals who never fired a gun until they went to the academy. Having a high grade point average is more important than being a Manly-Man and the ability to preform in physically demanding task! A equal sized gun will hold a few more rounds than a 45 but not nearly as many as the 9. The other advantage the 40 had was any 9mm gun platform that was out would easily allow manufactures to field a new weapon without having to develop a whole new platform around the cartridge with minimal modifications. Its neather beast nor fowl. Its just as expensive as the 45 but considerably smaller in diameter. So what exactly was achieved by the 40 S&W? How many folks argue the merits of the 16 gauge over the 12 or the 20 gauge? Exactly what I thought!


Hater! :mrgreen:


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Yes I am, ha ha ha .


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Mass Mike said:


> Hi all,
> I know that I am adding to an age old debate but I had a question in regards caliber, spec. 9mm. I have read in many places from many folks who would not trust their life to a 9mm pistol but would always opt for .40 or .45ACP as a personal protection caliber. I know that there are folks who post here with significant military or LE experience. I was wondering if anyone has ever seen or heard of someone who was well hit by a 9mm and kept right on coming. I know that we are usually inclined to want the biggest and best of anything, but while I have read many things about people who were down on the 9mm, but I couldn't find much "proof" of it failing to stop a bg where a larger caliber round would have taken care of business. Any thoughts?
> Thanks as always.
> Mike


I don't want to get to much into it. I have seen first hand what bullets do and simply stated, bullets do weird things. I strangest was a guy who pinned an agent with his vehicle against the K-rail on the highway in an attempt to crush the agent with the vehicle. The agent drew his weapon and fired a .40 S&W 155 grain controlled expansion round striking the subject in the temple. The round exited on the opposite side of the subjects head. The subject recovered with no ill effects from the shooting.

Bullet placement is critical and even then their is no guarantee's no matter the round used. The perfect size caliber is the one you can control most effectively in a firearm that you can most effectively use to stop the threat. I have seen, like the above subject survive what should have been certain death to people that die from bullet wounds they shouldn't have. It was like they got shot, looked at the wound and thought, "I'm shot therefore I'm dead", and died right on the spot. 
I have witnessed people shot multiple times and still keep coming and I have seen a man hit right in the forehead with a 9mm from an MP5 and survived. It knocked him right out but it didn't pierce the brow ridge, big Russian mafia guy. 
I know I'm not the only law enforcement guy that has arrived on the scene of an attempted suicide with a 12 gauge shotgun and the guy is still alive. No face and most of the head gone but very much alive. I have heard this from many other law enforcement officers and it usually starts with, "You're never gonna believe this!" 
If people were all the same both mentally and physically then we could build the perfect bullet but that is not the case.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

AS you can see Mass Mike there are as many opinions as there are people. 

Now granted that they are all wrong and I'm right is a given. :lol:

The best opinion though is you need to try them out. What works for you is what counts. Go to a range and rent a couple of different guns in different calibers. THAT'S how you find out what you will like.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

One thing is certain, .45 ACP doesn't penetrate car doors are body armor very well. If you anticipating a target protected by either of these something other than .45 ACP might be in order.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

roy said:


> One frequently used measure of the effectiveness of a round is muzzle energy. From the Glock owners manual for the standard size Glock: 45 ACP 460 Joules; 10mm, 750 j; 40 S&W, 525; .357 Sig, 765 j; 9mm 520 j 380. The 10mm was developed because the 45 ACP was lacking.


Yes back at the time of the FBI shooting in Miami, the 45 ACP was a bit lacking when compared to the bullet designs of the day. The only expanding round was the "flying ash tray" the 185gr JHP and with velocity still at only 950-1000 fps still made reliable expansion a bit iffy. With todays bullet design technology that's made the 45 ACP quiet formidable despite the lower velocities it operates at. It might look a bit lacking still on paper but reality on the street is that its still a reliable performer and with the advancement in bullet technology its even better. In a study of one stop shots its right there hot on the heels of the famed Remington 125gr JHP 357 load that law enforcement for years relied upon and was the standard by which all others were judged. I will grant you the 10mm is quiet the heavy hitter being close to 41 Mag performance in an auto loader. Unfortunately to achieve that you got a heck of a lot more recoil and muzzle flash/blast in the process. More than most folks can handle consistently. Had the FBI not adopted the 40S&W, I think it would have went the way of the 41 AE and the other attempt at a more modest 40 cal loading which off the top of my head I can not recall. In fact I am not sure it would have gained enough traction to make it out of the starting gate.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> Yes back at the time of the FBI shooting in Miami, the 45 ACP was a bit lacking when compared to the bullet designs of the day. The only expanding round was the "flying ash tray" the 185gr JHP and with velocity still at only 950-1000 fps still made reliable expansion a bit iffy. With todays bullet design technology that's made the 45 ACP quiet formidable despite the lower velocities it operates at. It might look a bit lacking still on paper but reality on the street is that its still a reliable performer and with the advancement in bullet technology its even better. In a study of one stop shots its right there hot on the heels of the famed Remington 125gr JHP 357 load that law enforcement for years relied upon and was the standard by which all others were judged. I will grant you the 10mm is quiet the heavy hitter being close to 41 Mag performance in an auto loader. Unfortunately to achieve that you got a heck of a lot more recoil and muzzle flash/blast in the process. More than most folks can handle consistently. Had the FBI not adopted the 40S&W, I think it would have went the way of the 41 AE and the other attempt at a more modest 40 cal loading which off the top of my head I can not recall. In fact I am not sure it would have gained enough traction to make it out of the starting gate.


Something interesting from the Miami shooting was that one of the suspects took a round directly to the heart, exploding it, and even though he was clinically dead, he fought for another 18 seconds, killing two more law enforcement officers.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

Meangreen said:


> Something interesting from the Miami shooting was that one of the suspects took a round directly to the heart, exploding it, and even though he was clinically dead, he fought for another 18 seconds, killing two more law enforcement officers.


That's because the brain still has oxygen for about, are you ready for it...... 18 seconds after the ticker unwinds.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Ehhh I have come to the conclusion that pistols are only for fighting you way to get your real gun (a rifle). I carry a 45, I used to shoot competition with a .38 Super and a .40, I have a 9mm to train people how to shoot. The caliber is not as important as shot placement for stopping the threat. Carry the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately and effectively and never look back.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

The Ft Hood shooter killed 13 and wounded 32 with a .22.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

roy said:


> One frequently used measure of the effectiveness of a round is muzzle energy. From the Glock owners manual for the standard size Glock: 45 ACP 460 Joules; 10mm, 750 j; 40 S&W, 525; .357 Sig, 765 j; 9mm 520 j 380. The 10mm was developed because the 45 ACP was lacking.


The 10mm was developed because the *9mm* was lacking. The 9mm was adopted because the .38 was lacking. The .40 was developed because the girls of the FBI couldn't shoot the 10mm. They don't use the .45 because of stubbornness and stupidity.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> Yes back at the time of the FBI shooting in Miami, the 45 ACP was a bit lacking when compared to the bullet designs of the day. The only expanding round was the "flying ash tray" the 185gr JHP and with velocity still at only 950-1000 fps still made reliable expansion a bit iffy. With todays bullet design technology that's made the 45 ACP quiet formidable despite the lower velocities it operates at. It might look a bit lacking still on paper but reality on the street is that its still a reliable performer and with the advancement in bullet technology its even better. In a study of one stop shots its right there hot on the heels of the famed Remington 125gr JHP 357 load that law enforcement for years relied upon and was the standard by which all others were judged. I will grant you the 10mm is quiet the heavy hitter being close to 41 Mag performance in an auto loader. Unfortunately to achieve that you got a heck of a lot more recoil and muzzle flash/blast in the process. More than most folks can handle consistently. Had the FBI not adopted the 40S&W, I think it would have went the way of the 41 AE and the other attempt at a more modest 40 cal loading which off the top of my head I can not recall. In fact I am not sure it would have gained enough traction to make it out of the starting gate.


Nobody was using a .45 in the shoot out in Miami, so it's a moot point.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

Federal .45 HST 230 grain +p


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

roy said:


> The Ft Hood shooter killed 13 and wounded 32 with a .22.


He had a 5.7.

fn 5.7 Millimeter Pistol, Gun Used in Fort Hood Shooting Purchased Legally | PanAsianBiz


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Rigged for Quiet said:


> That's because the brain still has oxygen for about, are you ready for it...... 18 seconds after the ticker unwinds.


You get a gold star!


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> You get a gold star!


WOO HOO!!! ::clapping:: ::clapping::


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

The 5.7 is a .22, .223 to be exact.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Arizona Infidel said:


> Nobody was using a .45 in the shoot out in Miami, so it's a moot point.


I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to articulate...never ment to suggest it was since we know that it wasn't, but was using that "time frame" late 80's early 90's, as a point in time for reference in the development of bullet design and cartridge design.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Ok, not being even former LE I had to google just what y'all were talking about. WOW!


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Closer to a .22 magnum just a little better performance.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Ok, not being even former LE I had to google just what y'all were talking about. WOW!


It barely made the news except for Miami Vice was the #1 show so it was broadcast as, "just like Miami vice" The FBI guys got smoked because out of tradition they were armed with .38 snubbies.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Yup, that was smart, a snubby up against a mini 14.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

Meangreen said:


> You get a gold star!


I'd like to thank all the little people who made this possible, and a certain FBI small arms instructor from a couple of decades ago.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Meangreen said:


> Closer to a .22 magnum just a little better performance.


Isn't a .22 magnum a .22?


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Ok, not being even former LE I had to google just what y'all were talking about. WOW!


It was one of those, "we gotta change our ways" lessons learned the hard way. A lot like the North Hollywood shootout, The LA Police carried 9mm's and maybe a shotgun. One of the rules was if the shotgun left the rack, you gotta cut paper so many officers out of complacency wouldn't even check them out. North Hollywood bank robbers, full auto 7.62X39 rifles and a .308 Hk 91, full length body armor, and were on Phenobarbital to keep them calm. 
Police were raiding the local gun shops taking rifles and ammo to try and stop the shooters. After the shooting stopped and it was reviewed on what went wrong and what went right, LA Counties response was to shut down all the gun shops in LA county and not allow the sale of ammo in the city of LA. Next they armed their officers with semi-auto AR type rifles. Once again it was blame the gun and not the person. Many of the officers attempted to sue Norinco for creating the weapons that the gun men had used, they were unsuccessful.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

rickfromillinois said:


> The very best caliber and the very best pistol is the caliber and pistol that you can hit what you are aiming at. A hit with a .22 is allot better then a miss with a .444 mag.


I have to disagree because I think a near miss with a .444 mag would be like getting hit with a flash bang, loss of your senses including your bowls.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

inceptor said:


> Yup, that was smart, a snubby up against a mini 14.


Platt and Matix must not have read all the internet commandos who say the Mini 14 is just a worthless piece of junk.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

The agents in this incident were not a regular field team but were support staff (Sworn agents not assigned to field duty). Their vehicles were not equipped for ramming in a felony stop but they used the tactic anyway. One of the results of this was their best shot (Member of FBI pistol team) lost his glasses and primary weapon (S&W 9mm) This left him visually impaired with his back up gun a 2" revolver and fellow agents in danger. He did not hesitate but engaged. Speaks highly of the man's courage. He did not survive. If everything else gets messed up the choice of the pistol caliber will probably be a very small factor.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Platt and Matix must not have read all the internet commandos who say the Mini 14 is just a worthless piece of junk.


I believe in commonality. In this case commonality of caliber. When I started shooting 45acp, that became my caliber of choice. One thing I didn't consider way back then was that 45acp is an extremely common round. Up until recently I had the occasional 38/357 but mostly I have stayed with the 45. I also have a 9mm. Rifle calibers are 223/556 and 30.06. What this means for me is that when I buy ammo, I have the capacity to have more for each. With any of those calibers, in a shtf situation, the probability of obtaining more ammo is greatly increased. The farther off the beaten path you go, your changes of finding similar ammo has diminished.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

inceptor said:


> I believe in commonality. In this case commonality of caliber. When I started shooting 45acp, that became my caliber of choice. One thing I didn't consider way back then was that 45acp is an extremely common round. Up until recently I had the occasional 38/357 but mostly I have stayed with the 45. I also have a 9mm. Rifle calibers are 223/556 and 30.06. What this means for me is that when I buy ammo, I have the capacity to have more for each. With any of those calibers, in a shtf situation, the probability of obtaining more ammo is greatly increased. The farther off the beaten path you go, your changes of finding similar ammo has diminished.


In my case, firearms are a part of my hobby of the study of military history. I have been a shooter for 60 years, and an owner for 55 years. I stock ammo in 22 different calibers and guages and have at least one firearm in each. Some calibers/guages I have more than one firearm so chambered. 
I have garden variety "common" calibers - 45ACP, 38 Special, 30-06, 30-30, 12 ga, etc.
I also have firearms that just plain please me - 1940 H&R Model 120 Game Gun 16 ga bolt action shotgun. A 1921 Colt Police Positive Special revolver in 32-20. And others.
Even (GASP!) a 9MM auto - a Walther P-1 as a substitute for a P-38 for my WWII collection. SHHH!! Don't tell anyone RPD owns a 9MM.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> *I also have firearms that just plain please me* - 1940 H&R Model 120 Game Gun 16 ga bolt action shotgun. A 1921 Colt Police Positive Special revolver in 32-20. And others.
> Even (GASP!) a 9MM auto - a Walther P-1 as a substitute for a P-38 for my WWII collection. SHHH!! Don't tell anyone RPD owns a 9MM.


That's as it should be :mrgreen:


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

retired guard said:


> The agents in this incident were not a regular field team but were support staff (Sworn agents not assigned to field duty). Their vehicles were not equipped for ramming in a felony stop but they used the tactic anyway. One of the results of this was their best shot (Member of FBI pistol team) lost his glasses and primary weapon (S&W 9mm) This left him visually impaired with his back up gun a 2" revolver and fellow agents in danger. He did not hesitate but engaged. Speaks highly of the man's courage. He did not survive. If everything else gets messed up the choice of the pistol caliber will probably be a very small factor.


I'm pretty sure all of the FBI is support staff.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

Meangreen said:


> I'm pretty sure all of the FBI is support staff.


Not in their eyes.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

We were shown the FBI training video inspired by that incident. One of the agents actually dropped/lost his revolver/pistol that was between his legs while driving. Several those killed just curled up in a ball after they were wounded and waited to be killed.


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