# Why America isn't the greatest country



## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Powerful stuff. Take it for what it's worth...


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## 2Tim215 (Jun 19, 2014)

At least someone's seeing the truth, even if it is only the scriptwriter


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

He names off a bunch of stuff we are not #1 in... of course if you look at a nation that is number 1 in each of those... say China is #1 in exports... how do the finish with freedom.

So is America the greatest.... YES

People are dying to come here....Even rich Canadians come for medical, Chinese come for education, Indians come for jobs, 

The video is a nice piece of SCREEN WRITING... but if you look at the BIG picture.... it is wrong

it is not ONE THING - that makes us great.... it is everything....

if you disagree...then ask the people that are not given a visa WHY they applied....


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> He names off a bunch of stuff we are not #1 in... of course if you look at a nation that is number 1 in each of those... say China is #1 in exports... how do the finish with freedom.
> 
> So is America the greatest.... YES
> 
> ...


Well, one of those people is my daughter. She has been waiting 8 years for a green card. Her reason for applying is simple. She wants to live with her family. Emigration, not immigration may be our solution.

BTW: We rank about 20th in economic freedom.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

More than a little biased here, but if I could live in any country I choose, it would be the United States of America. We have our warts and scars, but the difference is, we show ours instead of trying to hide them like most countries do. Yes, we have our problems, but nothing that can't be fixed, a very good start would be getting the right people in office.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Sasquatch, I loved this show!! Did you watch the series on HBO?! I was very sad to see it go. It gave a very interesting look behind the scenes of a newsroom. 

Is there truth to what he is saying...sure. Our country isn't perfect. Is it "The Greatest Country"? I don't know. It's all in the perception of where you live. I'm sure TG thinks where she lives is pretty damn sweet. People in Switzerland probably love where they live, too. Labeling The Greatest Country just comes off more about arrogance rather than facts. Why the need to label?


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

It is indeed powerful. The jist of what he says is not far off base. We have lost our way and for this complacency and negelct we may loose the very thing we founded this country on. Freedom and independence.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

"because we were informed."

There'll be some knee jerk reactions by people who don't want to admit he (or the character, or the writer, or anyone who suggests such a thing) is right. Except he is right, and his most powerful statement from that speech, at least for me, is "because we were informed.". How many people can name one person who represents them outside of Obama (or worse, Michelle)? How many people can even tell you how many branches of government there are?

We really ought to nominate an Ostrich as our national bird. We do love to imitate them.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> Well, one of those people is my daughter. She has been waiting 8 years for a green card. Her reason for applying is simple. She wants to live with her family. Emigration, not immigration may be our solution.
> 
> BTW: We rank about 20th in economic freedom.


HOW do YOU measure economic freedom???

anybody here can start a business.... what keeps us from being #1


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Mish said:


> Sasquatch, I loved this show!! Did you watch the series on HBO?! I was very sad to see it go. It gave a very interesting look behind the scenes of a newsroom.
> 
> Is there truth to what he is saying...sure. Our country isn't perfect. Is it "The Greatest Country"? I don't know. It's all in the perception of where you live. I'm sure TG thinks where she lives is pretty damn sweet. People in Switzerland probably love where they live, too. Labeling The Greatest Country just comes off more about arrogance rather than facts. Why the need to label?


We deserve, or we use to deserve a little bit of pride... My family lives in Maine, New Brunswick, Cape Briton Nova Scotia, and Manitoba... I learned O Canada before The star Spangled Banner... We are a better nation then Canada..but they are a close 2nd

of course *here is a Canadians view from the 70's*... It is a shame that so many Americans want to bad mouth our country... they forget about the many things we have done, the contributions we have given to the world, the freedoms we have won, the people we sacrificed in order to help our friends... after world war II we did not keep one inch of land in Japan, germany, italy, france, india, ..... Yet people say we are imperialistic....


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> HOW do YOU measure economic freedom???
> 
> anybody here can start a business.... what keeps us from being #1


We've got bureaucrats shutting down children's lemonade stands. Starting a small business has become exceedingly difficult between permits and regulation and if you manage to succeed you'll be subject to confiscatory taxes and told "You didn't build that."


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> We've got bureaucrats shutting down children's lemonade stands. Starting a small business has become exceedingly difficult between permits and regulation and if you manage to succeed you'll be subject to confiscatory taxes and told "You didn't build that."


The kids lemonade stand thingie is an exception not a rule....

confiscatory taxes - hardly

you did not build that - the POTUS can say whatever he wants... but Bill Gates built Microsoft

Actually starting a small business is pretty easy....file some paperwork and you are good to go... I have started a few of them....


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> The kids lemonade stand thingie is an exception not a rule....
> 
> confiscatory taxes - hardly
> 
> ...


I am afraid not on the lemonade stands. There have been several such cases, not to mention cupcakes, etc.

As for starting a business, the difficulty depends on the business.

Taxes on a small business, depending on the state can easily exceed 50% of income. I consider that confiscatory. YMMV.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> I am afraid not on the lemonade stands. There have been several such cases, not to mention cupcakes, etc.
> 
> As for starting a business, the difficulty depends on the business.
> 
> Taxes on a small business, depending on the state can easily exceed 50% of income. I consider that confiscatory. YMMV.


I respect your opinion a lot..but you are putting state issues onto a national imagine


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

I love this country and I also love the fact I can speak out about the things I see wrong with it. I think most of us here believe, like said in the video piece, this is one of the greatest countries on the planet but we could be so much better.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Maine-Marine said:


> We deserve, or we use to deserve a little bit of pride... My family lives in Maine, New Brunswick, Cape Briton Nova Scotia, and Manitoba... I learned O Canada before The star Spangled Banner... We are a better nation then Canada..but they are a close 2nd
> 
> of course *here is a Canadians view from the 70's*... It is a shame that so many Americans want to bad mouth our country... they forget about the many things we have done, the contributions we have given to the world, the freedoms we have won, the people we sacrificed in order to help our friends... after world war II we did not keep one inch of land in Japan, germany, italy, france, india, ..... Yet people say we are imperialistic....


Beautiful video Maine. Thanks for that.

Speaking as a current business owner, it's surprisingly simple to start a business... and inexpensive, at least as far as the government's concerned.
It's harder to be accepted by distributors and banks than by the government.

American businesses are heavily over-taxed, true, but it is on a scale and it's profit based, not income based.

When most people think of small businesses, they don't realize that can include businesses with up to 500 employees! That's really not that small. So "small business" can be very misleading.

They are also heavily trusted to report income and rarely investigated. I feel very free as a business owner. I just fear for my taxes once success becomes a reality.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I have been to more countries than I will ever remember. Some countries have advantages sure. I will concede that many of those countries are beautiful in their own rights. They are not and never will be America.


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## Danm (Nov 15, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> We deserve, or we use to deserve a little bit of pride... My family lives in Maine, New Brunswick, Cape Briton Nova Scotia, and Manitoba... I learned O Canada before The star Spangled Banner... We are a better nation then Canada..but they are a close 2nd
> 
> of course *here is a Canadians view from the 70's*... It is a shame that so many Americans want to bad mouth our country... they forget about the many things we have done, the contributions we have given to the world, the freedoms we have won, the people we sacrificed in order to help our friends... after world war II we did not keep one inch of land in Japan, germany, italy, france, india, ..... Yet people say we are imperialistic....


I said this earlier in another thread but bears repeating here We dont live in that world from the 1960s and 1970s the worm has turned we are not the country we once where, and with the way things keep going we never will be again no matter how much we close our eyes and say it isnt true, facts are facts,it breaks my heart but the dream has become the nightmare.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

The World has gone to crap in many ways. Yes, many of the problems of the World have been around forever, but FREEDOM and LIBERTY is fast eroding or has totally eroded in most other countries EXCEPT The United States of America. The USA is the last bastion of FREEDOM and LIBERTY in the World. No denying that. Once the USA is gone, there are no other truly FREE countries and hence no more truly FREE People. I believe that 100%.

Do not mistake Freedom for Security or even some modern "Quality of Life" comparison. Mark my damn words, Freedom ain't easy or secure. 

If its security you want, go to Switzerland or Sweden or many other European Socialist Countries. If anarchy is what you want, check out some African or Middle Eastern countries. If its a Dictatorship you desire, well there's plenty of them out there too.

The USA was and is the last country that I believe God has truly blessed. (And our country has kicked God out, but that's a different thread). 

Simply take a look at our Natural Resources alone. Then look at how the US has grown and thrived in the last 250 years. Look at the inventions and discoveries that Americans have made, the companies that they have started, the industries developed and refined, the wealth and prosperity that US citizens have been able to accumulate. Hell, just look at the vast wealth that the US has GIVEN AWAY to other shithole countries and asked for nothing in return! 

Then talk about our Military, the strongest most powerful EVER. USA Sports, USA products, USA Service--all equaled by none.

Then look at a World Map, The US Border outline is simply and vastly different than every other country in the World. That might not amaze you but it reinforces to me that the USA is so much different than everywhere else in the World.

Our Constitution, as the Founder's perceived and designed it, was and is GENIUS.


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## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

Danm said:


> I said this earlier in another thread but bears repeating here We dont live in that world from the 1960s and 1970s the worm has turned we are not the country we once where, and with the way things keep going we never will be again no matter how much we close our eyes and say it isnt true, facts are facts,it breaks my heart but the dream has become the nightmare.


We've been in a darker time in our past, and more than once. As many experts have said, 'the American system is built to bounce-back'.
It's never too late.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

What happens when you throw the blueprints for the system out the window.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Danm said:


> I said this earlier in another thread but bears repeating here We dont live in that world from the 1960s and 1970s the worm has turned we are not the country we once where, and with the way things keep going we never will be again no matter how much we close our eyes and say it isnt true, facts are facts,it breaks my heart but the dream has become the nightmare.


You sir are wrong.. we indeed are not in the 60's or 70's .. but we still do not need papers to go from maine to new york
our colleges are top notch
we have a ton of open space where you can get lost
hard work is rewarded
we can vote for who our leaders are
we have the greatest doctors in the world

If you think we have fallen...then also remember that GB, USSR, Canada, and other countries have also seen a greater moral decline... it is not just us...

So I would say open your eyes and look at the globe... what other country has the benefits, freedoms, rights, great education and medical...... NONE....


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I am 52 years old... I graduated high school in 1981

things are different now... HOWEVER 

there are still lots of folks around like me... The President made fun of us clinging to our guns and bibles.... but part of that "Bible clinging" is a respect for the people around us, a sense that there is a greater good, a desire to give to charity, help our fellowman, support and encourage our leaders.

I lived for many years in Japan, I have visited hong kong, thailand, philippines, korea..... there is NO OTHER COUNTRY I would want to live in.

you can pick and choose countries to say this or that is better then the USA... but over all...no other country offers the benefits and advantages "we" do.

If you look down at the USA because it has changed....then you will be really sadden to look at germany or italy or you might have a stroke if you consider the UK


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Slippy said:


> The World has gone to crap in many ways. Yes, many of the problems of the World have been around forever, but FREEDOM and LIBERTY is fast eroding or has totally eroded in most other countries EXCEPT The United States of America. The USA is the last bastion of FREEDOM and LIBERTY in the World. No denying that. Once the USA is gone, there are no other truly FREE countries and hence no more truly FREE People. I believe that 100%.
> 
> Do not mistake Freedom for Security or even some modern "Quality of Life" comparison. Mark my damn words, Freedom ain't easy or secure.
> 
> ...


Well said Slippy " They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> I am 52 years old... I graduated high school in 1981
> 
> things are different now... HOWEVER
> 
> ...


With all that said do you think we (the US) can do better than we are? Also, do you think we are doing better now than say the 80's?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> You sir are wrong.. we indeed are not in the 60's or 70's .. but we still do not need papers to go from maine to new york
> our colleges are top notch
> we have a ton of open space where you can get lost
> hard work is rewarded
> ...


unless it is by plane or you're driving and get stopped, or happen to be on a train, ,,,
past tense "were" not "are"
open space, i.e. open to spotted owls, the delta smelt, etc.
past tense again. You need to work on that. 
what do you mean "our leaders". I didn't vote for them.
Obamacare has insured that we will not have the greatest doctors in the world again.

In looking at other countries I find there are many that are superior on some matters and not as good on others.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> With all that said do you think we (the US) can do better than we are? Also, do you think we are doing better now than say the 80's?


the fact that we can do better does not mean we are not the greatest....


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> unless it is by plane or you're driving and get stopped, or happen to be on a train, ,,,
> past tense "were" not "are"
> open space, i.e. open to spotted owls, the delta smelt, etc.
> past tense again. You need to work on that.
> ...


good way to twist things... however... i was just on amtrack PA to IL and back... I had to show my tickets... nothing else

sure we have some endangered critters...but over all there is lots of land

the leaders are YOURS regardless of if you voted for them or not... whoever holds that office is the leader..period

why do the vast majority of medical people come here for education... why do many other countries doctors not qualify to practice here???

twist all you want... WE are the greatest


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> the fact that we can do better does not mean we are not the greatest....


I think you and I are pretty much on the same page about how great we think America is. Using the word "greatest" is merely subjective. What I took away from that video clip was we shouldn't fool ourselves into some false ideal and shouldn't rest on our past accomplishments. And that we are great but we still have a lot of work to do to get us to where we could be.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> good way to twist things... however... i was just on amtrack PA to IL and back... I had to show my tickets... nothing else
> 
> sure we have some endangered critters...but over all there is lots of land
> 
> ...


Read your tickets from Amtrak. It says right on the ticket they can demand identification. TSA also claims jurisdiction over the trains.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

I agree....if there was a place greater I'd go. I've looked and not found one. If anyone can tell me where I'm free to build my own home, have the closest neighbor 21 miles away, see a govt guy three times in 2 decades and all three be good experiences, have property taxes of $3k a year which equates to less then a dollar an acre please let me know.



Maine-Marine said:


> good way to twist things... however... i was just on amtrack PA to IL and back... I had to show my tickets... nothing else
> 
> sure we have some endangered critters...but over all there is lots of land
> 
> ...


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Dude. Dude!

I happen to live in america, too. And I AM CANADIAN,EH!

Please be more careful about what you call a country. You hurt my feelings.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> Read your tickets from Amtrak. It says right on the ticket they can demand identification. TSA also claims jurisdiction over the trains.


Blah Blah Blah... IF TSA wants to check my id against my ticket..I do not have a problem... MY point was we can travel without permission...


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> Blah Blah Blah... IF TSA wants to check my id against my ticket..I do not have a problem... MY point was we can travel without permission...


Then you can travel without permission within most countries and throughout the European Union if you are a citizen of any member country. In fact if you simply carry a passport you can travel between any two countries that do not require a visa. About the only thing you are comparing us to is North Korea.

I applaud your patriotism, but while I would agree that the US is a powerful country, to be the "greatest" country we would need to fully respect the Constitution, and the fact is we no longer do so. Am I free to bear arms? No. Am I confident the police will not break down my door, shoot my dog, and toss my home, only to discover they were at the wrong address? No. Can I travel without having somebody with blue gloves stick their hands inside my pants? No. Are my taxes reasonable? No. Can I start most forms of business without permission? No. Do we enjoy freedom of the press? We are 43rd on a recent poll on press freedom.

With the exception of the right to bear arms, I can find better countries on almost all of those measures, and on the right to bear arms I can do better than NJ. If all those problems were to be solved, I might agree with you.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> Then you can travel without permission within most countries and throughout the European Union if you are a citizen of any member country. In fact if you simply carry a passport you can travel between any two countries that do not require a visa. About the only thing you are comparing us to is North Korea.
> 
> I applaud your patriotism, but while I would agree that the US is a powerful country, to be the "greatest" country we would need to fully respect the Constitution, and the fact is we no longer do so. Am I free to bear arms? No. Am I confident the police will not break down my door, shoot my dog, and toss my home, only to discover they were at the wrong address? No. Can I travel without having somebody with blue gloves stick their hands inside my pants? No. Are my taxes reasonable? No. Can I start most forms of business without permission? No. Do we enjoy freedom of the press? We are 43rd on a recent poll on press freedom.
> 
> With the exception of the right to bear arms, I can find better countries on almost all of those measures, and on the right to bear arms I can do better than NJ. If all those problems were to be solved, I might agree with you.


your funny.. in order to be the greatest we have to respect the constitution... so you are using an American document in order to measure our greatness
You are free to bear arms in many states... NJ is restrictive but you can still own a gun
As I mentioned before you would have to invent a NEW country or take different things from many other countries in order to match america.
You can travel without search... nowhere in the constitution are you guaranteed AIR travel... you can drive to Maine or California without subjecting yourself to search
If your taxes are not reasonable..move..or compare them to Canada or many other places

can you start most forms of business without permission... YES... you do not need permission, you need a tax permit..and many people start a business just using their own SSN...

as a general rule the police are not going to break down your door... while I have read about it..and find it disturbing... i do not personally know a single person that it has happened to.

so, I will make my final post on this topic by saying.... there is no other country that offers the benefits and possible rewards (hard work) that America does. If you want to cherry pick this and that I am sure that you can find areas we are not #1 in.... However as a NATION, we are top of the class...


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

I still haven't seen anyone tell us which country they feel is better?

As to following the constitution you mean your interpretation not mine. Let's remember that's an opinion. People infer differences in the bible, koran and the constitution every day. America is one of the few countries where you can enjoy doing that. The handful of others are no more free then the US.



Diver said:


> Then you can travel without permission within most countries and throughout the European Union if you are a citizen of any member country. In fact if you simply carry a passport you can travel between any two countries that do not require a visa. About the only thing you are comparing us to is North Korea.
> 
> I applaud your patriotism, but while I would agree that the US is a powerful country, to be the "greatest" country we would need to fully respect the Constitution, and the fact is we no longer do so. Am I free to bear arms? No. Am I confident the police will not break down my door, shoot my dog, and toss my home, only to discover they were at the wrong address? No. Can I travel without having somebody with blue gloves stick their hands inside my pants? No. Are my taxes reasonable? No. Can I start most forms of business without permission? No. Do we enjoy freedom of the press? We are 43rd on a recent poll on press freedom.
> 
> With the exception of the right to bear arms, I can find better countries on almost all of those measures, and on the right to bear arms I can do better than NJ. If all those problems were to be solved, I might agree with you.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> your funny.. in order to be the greatest we have to respect the constitution... so you are using an American document in order to measure our greatness
> You are free to bear arms in many states... NJ is restrictive but you can still own a gun
> As I mentioned before you would have to invent a NEW country or take different things from many other countries in order to match america.
> You can travel without search... nowhere in the constitution are you guaranteed AIR travel... you can drive to Maine or California without subjecting yourself to search
> ...


If you were to say we have the greatest constitution I might agree with you, but if we don't respect the constitution are we even a nation of laws?

Simple ownership of a gun does not cut it. I can own a gun in Canada.

The point on TSA was originally in response to your saying we could travel without the "papers please" BS of the communist world.

TSA has asserted that they have the right to conduct searches on all modes of transit. I see them every time I take a trip on Amtrak. They have set up VIPR searches as road blocks. The fact that these things may not be as pervasive as they are for air travel doesn't mean you can travel without documents or searches.

As for air travel, the courts have disagreed. You do have a right to air travel. That is why the first few names have been removed from the Do Not Fly list. What you don't have is the right to undocumented travel regardless of mode.

I can't even drive to work without being photographed multiple times.

Coming back to the "papers please" issue, I have done extensive travel to Russia. Travel in the US today is every bit as demanding in terms of documentation as it was in Russia when I traveled there. If your original point was that we can travel more freely, in particular without having to present documents, then it simply isn't true.

Re: Police break ins. I have personally had police break into my home, albeit not with SWAT tactics and lots of physical damage, so now you know someone who has had the police break into their home illegally.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Ripon said:


> *I still haven't seen anyone tell us which country they feel is better? *
> 
> As to following the constitution you mean your interpretation not mine. Let's remember that's an opinion. People infer differences in the bible, koran and the constitution every day. America is one of the few countries where you can enjoy doing that. The handful of others are no more free then the US.


Two critical points; who we used to be, and our ability to be so much better.

No one is threatening to expatriate or suggesting we be more like <insert country here>. I am patriotic, and I don't even come from here. I understand it, and I respect it in others. That doesn't mean we should ever let it blind us to our potential, or let it keep us from learning from our past. If we want this country to remain as great as it was, and as it is, then we need to focus on how great it could be if we all get on board.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

dannydefense said:


> Two critical points; who we used to be, and our ability to be so much better.
> 
> No one is threatening to expatriate or suggesting we be more like <insert country here>. I am patriotic, and I don't even come from here. I understand it, and I respect it in others. That doesn't mean we should ever let it blind us to our potential, or let it keep us from learning from our past. If we want this country to remain as great as it was, and as it is, then we need to focus on how great it could be if we all get on board.


I'm glad somebody gets it.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

dannydefense said:


> Two critical points; who we used to be, and our ability to be so much better.
> 
> No one is threatening to expatriate or suggesting we be more like <insert country here>. I am patriotic, and I don't even come from here. I understand it, and I respect it in others. That doesn't mean we should ever let it blind us to our potential, or let it keep us from learning from our past. If we want this country to remain as great as it was, and as it is, then we need to focus on how great it could be if we all get on board.


If by "expatriate" you mean emigrate, I am actively considering it.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Diver said:


> If by "expatriate" you mean emigrate, I am actively considering it.


A lot of Mexican nationals thought leaving their country would make their lives better. Then they came here and created a lot of the same problems for themselves. Leaving is a band-aid that solves nothing, especially for those who put in the same lack of effort in their new home as they did in their old.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Slippy quietly whispers to his good friend dannydefense; Hey DD, do not talk him out of it. Maybe he'll go to a place where they have no internet?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

dannydefense said:


> A lot of Mexican nationals thought leaving their country would make their lives better. Then they came here and created a lot of the same problems for themselves. Leaving is a band-aid that solves nothing, especially for those who put in the same lack of effort in their new home as they did in their old.


Well, I am not Mexican. As for putting in effort, I've put in plenty of effort and don't care for the insinuation I haven't.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

I suppose it depends on how one defines greatness. 25 years ago I would have said without hesitation that America was the greatest nation on the face of the earth. After having travelled extensively, I no longer believe that she is. 

I've relocated many of my business operations to Asia over the course of the last two decades. Consequently, I've spent significant amounts of time overseas. In my experience, many countries are far more economically free than the US. Hong Kong, Singapore, and Australia are probably the most business friendly of all the countries I've visited. I pay much lower tax rates abroad than I do in the US, and there are far fewer roadblocks to starting businesses (especially in the manufacturing and tech industries). 

Beyond economic freedom, there are several countries in which I have felt more "free" than I do here in the US. Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand, and especially Switzerland are all more free than the US currently is. The only freedom that I have here in the US that I wouldn't have in these other places is the right to keep and bear arms (the Swiss actually have far more guns per capita than Americans do). Otherwise...they are more free in just about every way than we are here in the US. 

The US is my home, and I will stay here for as long as I can, but, I'm not sure how much longer I'll be holding out. The truly smart money has already left these shores.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Diver said:


> Well, I am not Mexican. As for putting in effort, I've put in plenty of effort and don't care for the insinuation I haven't.


Each insinuation that I have for you is confirmed every time you type something! ¡Qué útil!


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

One of my old bosses had a saying for any of his employees that were tired of working for him or putting up with his nonsense. Don't let the Door Knob hit you in the A - - on the way out! :armata_PDT_41::armata_PDT_41::armata_PDT_41:


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Diver said:


> Well, I am not Mexican. As for putting in effort, I've put in plenty of effort and don't care for the insinuation I haven't.


I am entirely unconcerned with whether or not that statement applies to you specifically, nor am I insinuating that it may; it was a statement of fact, nothing more. Leaving fixes nothing, it just produces a new set of issues that you'll have to deal with.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

It would be great if everyone were on board; but again we're talking opinion. Obummer thinks the majority is on board with him; hildabeast will think everyone (nearly) is on board with her; clearly I'm not on board with either one, but I'm also not on board with extreme libertarians that have a different view of the constitution then I do. The spectrum of division in beliefs is so great I doubt a book could list them all and I'm not even talking specific issues just general beliefs.

I bring up what country is better because the OP suggest our nation isn't the greatest. I agree its not as good as it once was in many ways, but in other ways it is better. As idiotic as our tax code is - its not 65% or more like it once was....are we not better now that its not? I just want to know if we are not the greatest country (still) then which one is; for I'm open to moving. I considered Ireland, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and even Australia. I'm sorry but they aren't better - maybe in some ways they are but in all ways not even close.



dannydefense said:


> Two critical points; who we used to be, and our ability to be so much better.
> 
> No one is threatening to expatriate or suggesting we be more like <insert country here>. I am patriotic, and I don't even come from here. I understand it, and I respect it in others. That doesn't mean we should ever let it blind us to our potential, or let it keep us from learning from our past. If we want this country to remain as great as it was, and as it is, then we need to focus on how great it could be if we all get on board.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Ripon said:


> It would be great if everyone were on board; but again we're talking opinion. Obummer thinks the majority is on board with him; hildabeast will think everyone (nearly) is on board with her; clearly I'm not on board with either one, but I'm also not on board with extreme libertarians that have a different view of the constitution then I do. The spectrum of division in beliefs is so great I doubt a book could list them all and I'm not even talking specific issues just general beliefs.


I guess when I'm talking about being on board, I'm not talking about sharing the same opinions, or the same political platform. How many people are involved in politics? Sure, lots of otherwise lazy welfare recipients are amazingly good at showing up for protests, especially when there's any looting forecasted, but how many of those same people have even cast a vote in a major election, let alone a minor one? Not that voting is the only way to get involved, in fact and in my opinion it's only the tiniest fraction of barely being involved. How many people show up for town hall? How many people know more about an issue than what they read in the last headline?

Being on board for me isn't what you believe. It's actively participating in developing this country and the lives of those in it for the better, no matter which direction you lean in.



Ripon said:


> I bring up what country is better because the OP suggest our nation isn't the greatest. I agree its not as good as it once was in many ways, but in other ways it is better. As idiotic as our tax code is - its not 65% or more like it once was....are we not better now that its not? I just want to know if we are not the greatest country (still) then which one is; for I'm open to moving. I considered Ireland, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and even Australia. I'm sorry but they aren't better - maybe in some ways they are but in all ways not even close.


I understand what you're saying here. Again though, I think the issue lies with so many people being so overly comfortable in that fact that it could easily slip away from us, quietly and in the middle of the night, if we don't keep doing all the things that made it the way it is in the first place.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> One of my old bosses had a saying for any of his employees that were tired of working for him or putting up with his nonsense. Don't let the Door Knob hit you in the A - - on the way out! :armata_PDT_41::armata_PDT_41::armata_PDT_41:


I hear people issue this basic refrain constantly, but, surely you must realize that running good, productive people off will eventually lead to your demise. Businesses that make a habit of this usually end up out of business. The same goes for societies.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

I started to reply, but you know what you're probably a sort of nice guy, and I guess that maybe over a couple of beers we might agree to disagree - shoot I already have a similar arrangement with a bunch of liberals - but I don't quite see us as swapping Christmas cards.

You all take care of yourself.


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## OC40 (Sep 16, 2014)

This is what troubles me when this debate starts, are we still great? If not why? The problem and the point the speech was making that we are no longer informed without bias. We can't even ask the questions of "how to improve anymore", without the very pissing contest that happened in this thread. I've been all over this world and can tell you from first-hand experience that for every downfall the US currently has, it still isn't the horrific third-world problems other nations are dealing with.

So what if you don't like the leadership, get off your ass and do something about it. Get involved, not just sit out behind your keyboard complaining about this and that. Over the last year I have received a stack of letters from my leaders (yup I didn't vote for them all either) all replies to my concerns over 2A rights. I've even started sending in letters to the school board over this "garbage" lunch plan. Guess what, enough parents did the same so they are opting out.

That's the point people, stop the pissing contest of who is the better American. Ask the questions, stick to your ideals but damn we have to find some middle ground. I know many are anti-Obama (with good reason) but as I taught in the military "don't just bitch about it, bring an answer or be willing to work to find one."

To bring this full circle and get off my soap box, back to the news&#8230;when is the last time you watched a news feed, read a paper, that wasn't slanted to an agenda? We fell into our own trap for information, we only watch, read, and listen to what we want to hear. CNN, FOX, MSN, they are less about the news and more about promoting a *profitable* agenda.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

OC40 said:


> This is what troubles me when this debate starts, are we still great? If not why? The problem and the point the speech was making that we are no longer informed without bias. We can't even ask the questions of "how to improve anymore", without the very pissing contest that happened in this thread. I've been all over this world and can tell you from first-hand experience that for every downfall the US currently has, it still isn't the horrific third-world problems other nations are dealing with.
> 
> So what if you don't like the leadership, get off your ass and do something about it. Get involved, not just sit out behind your keyboard complaining about this and that. Over the last year I have received a stack of letters from my leaders (yup I didn't vote for them all either) all replies to my concerns over 2A rights. I've even started sending in letters to the school board over this "garbage" lunch plan. Guess what, enough parents did the same so they are opting out.
> 
> ...


Agendas are normal. You need to recognize that in everything you read or hear. Personally, I read a lot of books. I try to get more in depth than a 3 minute news clip on TV.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

The problem with the world is simply this idiotic belief that money means something. Since money is a man made institution and we all base judge and value the monetary worth of a thing over its emotional moral and empathatic qualitities we will never overcome any of this and we will crumble. When labour is free the rich have no power and the class war ceases to exist and federal reserve money and international banking will mean nothing. We are all the problem world wide. America wealth was its claim to fame as it used to be used for good to some degree. Now its just there to serve the rich.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Hmm....sorry but this isn't Star Trek....if you don't like money it likely means your short of where you want or like me gave up trying. I've had to learn the word contentment. Rather then serve to deprive others of their wealth I choose to be content with what I have and not ask for theirs, or wish for such a dramatic change to punish others for their success. The facts are capitalism is a great cure for many evils and sins, but it will create a few on the way.



TacticalCanuck said:


> The problem with the world is simply this idiotic belief that money means something. Since money is a man made institution and we all base judge and value the monetary worth of a thing over its emotional moral and empathatic qualitities we will never overcome any of this and we will crumble. When labour is free the rich have no power and the class war ceases to exist and federal reserve money and international banking will mean nothing. We are all the problem world wide. America wealth was its claim to fame as it used to be used for good to some degree. Now its just there to serve the rich.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

Ripon said:


> Hmm....sorry but this isn't Star Trek....if you don't like money it likely means your short of where you want or like me gave up trying. I've had to learn the word contentment. Rather then serve to deprive others of their wealth I choose to be content with what I have and not ask for theirs, or wish for such a dramatic change to punish others for their success. The facts are capitalism is a great cure for many evils and sins, but it will create a few on the way.


Without doubt capitalism is a very effective economic approach to building a nation. And hey star trek was a great series ☺

No i got plenty enough money and dont long for anything any man has. Ok maybe Halle Berry's boy friend has something Id like....

I hold no man over myself nor any man under me. We all have the same condition - humanity.

I have many a great friend living in the US. I would never say the country of ones current home makes them better nor worse than me when it comes to being here, alive, today.

Now if you will excuse me, i am going to have a cuban cigar, sip on some jamaican rum, nibble some austrailian licorise and clean my US made ruger.

Life is good. Its a fantastic gift. I believe those that think they have a right to dictate what mine is worth or tell me how i should use it are not looking out for you nor me (assuming one is using their life honestly).

And no i dont like money. People hide their nastiness behind it and all rediculous rules that surround it and build false pedistals with it. Like anything its how its used. And that is what one should use to judge by. Not its quantity.


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