# To Quarantine or not to Quarantine Ebola victims?



## survival

Touchy subject, but what do you think? Should people have the right to NOT be forced into a quarantine environment or should they not have the right and be confined until tests prove otherwise? 

When I worked in the medical field, I know patients could leave the hospital "AMA" (Against Medical Advice), but this is a who new ballgame. What are a persons rights during a quarantine?


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## Mad Trapper

Send them all to Barry and let Moochele monitor them.

P.S. they come to my home, they will be incinerated.


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## ntxwheels

If they have been around someone with the active disease or if they have come from a country where it is in outbreak mode, they need to be quarantined period!!


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## tks

SCOTUS has upheld the right of the states to forcibly quarantine for the public health and safety. Forced quarantine has been done with TB and typhoid patients, it sure a hell better be done with Ebola.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Wait.

Your question is "To Quarantine or not to Quarantine Ebola victims?"

Quarantine, no question about it.

Having said that, if your question is "do you quarantine anybody who was in a part of the world where Ebola is currently whether there is any reason to believe they have been exposed to it..." that's a totally different matter.

Health workers who worked directly with Ebola victims during the time when were contagious? Quarantine, at least to the point of keeping them off of airlines and other mass-transit systems and out of crowds (i.e. no ball games, concerts, etc). 

There needs to be some expectation of chance of exposure before quarantine is considered. IMHO.


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## survival

I agree 110%, they should be quarantined.


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## ekim

It should depend on gender, race, who they voted for and how smart they are, being contagious shouldn't matter. That's what this forum is about, learning how to cope with shit. :grin:

The rights of someone sick should always trump the rights of others not sick!!!!! The new American way. Always go with the dumbest solution.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

ekim said:


> It should depend on gender, race, who they voted for and how smart they are, being contagious shouldn't matter. That's what this forum is about, learning how to cope with shit. :grin:


You forgot sexual orientation... I don't want to die of GayBola, if I gotta bloody-puke and bloody blow my innards out of what was once a colon, I want it to be from StraitBola.


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## indie

I haven't checked the news this afternoon to see if there's an update, but it'll be interesting to see what comes of the Maine nurse. In my opinion, they shouldn't have let her out if that was their law and now that she's out, they should enforce their quarantine law...the law that should probably have been thought out a little more before being enacted. Knee-jerk fear reactions aren't really going to help anyone, but the basis of that law seems pretty sound to me, especially in light of the gallivanting of the NY doctor just before this.


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## ekim

Politicians kill far more people than Ebola and we don't quarantine them!


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## indie

ekim said:


> Politicians kill far more people than Ebola and we don't quarantine them!


Well we _should!_


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## Notsoyoung

They should be quarantined if they come from that part of the World whether it is known if they have come in contact with Ebola victims or not. They could lie about coming in contact, like that guy from Liberia did, and 2 nurses came down with it later. As for the nurse in Maine who feels that it is her right to go running around, if she comes down with it later, and one of my family members came down with it and died because earlier she was exercising her Rights, she would be dead if they did manage to cure her. IMO she is a self-centered inconsiderate bitch, pardon my language. Right now if I lived in her town and saw her heading my way I would be tempted to throw rocks at her.


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## ekim

Notsoyoung said:


> They should be quarantined if they come from that part of the World whether it is known if they have come in contact with Ebola victims or not. They could lie about coming in contact, like that guy from Liberia did, and 2 nurses came down with it later. As for the nurse in Maine who feels that it is her right to go running around, if she comes down with it later, and one of my family members came down with it and died because earlier she was exercising her Rights, she would be dead if they did manage to cure her. IMO she is a self-centered inconsiderate bitch, pardon my language. Right now if I lived in her town and saw her heading my way I would be tempted to throw rocks at her.


I don't want to get that close to her, I think throwing some lead would be better! But she should have to move in with the judge that said she can't be forced into quarantine!


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## Smitty901

This is one of those times when a few might need to Quarantined in order to protect the rest. It is not like they are sent to prison or locked up for years 21 days big dam deal. This stuff while not the end of the world is no joke. Quarantine is the only way to contain it.
This is not about rights but about doing what is right. If I traveled to the area I would Quarantine without being forced for the safety of others.


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## Mad Trapper

Notsoyoung said:


> They should be quarantined if they come from that part of the World whether it is known if they have come in contact with Ebola victims or not. They could lie about coming in contact, like that guy from Liberia did, and 2 nurses came down with it later. As for the nurse in Maine who feels that it is her right to go running around, if she comes down with it later, and one of my family members came down with it and died because earlier she was exercising her Rights, she would be dead if they did manage to cure her. IMO she is a self-centered inconsiderate bitch, pardon my language. Right now if I lived in her town and saw her heading my way I would be tempted to throw rocks at her.


She should stay hope a month, paid leave, if not take her nursing license. I certainly would not trust her working in a hospital with that attitude.

Rocks can break skin and draw blood. Put some fuel oil in a tank sprayer and bring some gasoline/malatov (gas styrafoam mix) to get things going. Pile a heap of brush on top and the ash should not hurt you tomorrow.


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## Sockpuppet

Quarantining a person is certainly permissible under law, but it shouldn't be based upon hyperbole or false science.

If someone is symptomatic and indicates one as contagious, I have little problem with placing one in an isolated environment. However given the same circumstances, requiring some to be quarantined, while others not, creates the problem that we are seeing today in Maine.

If state government wishes to correct the problem, it is a matter for the state legislature to correct. In the interim, a consistent policy instituted by the various Health Departments, consistent with their power, should be instituted to:

1. Quarantine by institutionalization *all* coming from the European and African continents to the United States, for a period of 3 weeks, or
2. All those coming from the European and African continents, that aren't symptomatic upon arrival in the U.S., to self monitor and contact stated authorities if signs and symptoms appear....with the caveat that public contact be absolutely minimal, under penalty of law.


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## Sockpuppet

Mad Trapper said:


> She should stay hope a month, paid leave, if not take her nursing license. I certainly would not trust her working in a hospital with that attitude..........


That won't happen.

She would have to be symptomatic and contagious, as then disregard the public safety, for the nursing board to even consider such.


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## thepeartree

The trouble is, people are scared of ebola. That despite the fact that the cure rate *in the U.S.* has been great. Only 1 death. So, do we make people feel safe or do we inconvenience one person for 3 weeks. I, too, think it's worth the quarantine IF they worked with someone who was infected (for sure).


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## Ice Queen

An 'Ebola victim' definitely needs and will be quarantined.

A person exposed to people who have active Ebola as in people who are massively shedding virus---that is another matter. NONE of the workers currently caring for Craig Spencer are quarantined. Whether or not they should be is a HUGE can of worms. Why? Because most of them will never get infected....the other issue is, if we intend to quarantine every health worker who cares for an Ebola patient for 21 days, how do we intend to care for all of the patients in this country, Ebola and regular, with so many of our workers sitting in quarantine.

I was thinking about this. I am for home quarantine...problem is, we will run out of workers. We can't lock our workers in the hospital for the duration of this and expect them to care for patients.

This could be an issue. I don't know the answer.

BTW, it's breaking out in Mali from that 2 year old that was sick and traveled across the country on their public transport, while vomiting, bleeding and having diarrhea.... and in a month, I predict a very nasty outbreak there. They have contact traced 141 people but likely as many are missing.


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## thepeartree

Well, yes, Ice Queen, but that is part of the problem- there are precisely 5 hospitals in the US equipped to handle anything like ebola. I happen to think that's right up there with the state of the VA system as next to treason.


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## Ice Queen

Yep, that is the other issue. We have NO surge capacity. 

IF, and it's a big IF, we have an outbreak in several cities at once, it would be an issue. I have another beef with how this is being handled. Most of the BEST hospitals, that provide all kinds of life saving cutting edge care, are designated Ebola centers....if you need tertiary care, you will have to go to that hospital. If it gets contaminated....then what? IMO, smaller, secondary hospitals should have been designated centers, equipped and trained for Ebola, so our tertiary centers could continue to function.

I am concerned we do not have surge capacity, and that we won't be able to offer the high quality care to the masses that the few are getting now.


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## Mad Trapper

Question to ask is where is the borderline of contagious? Fever? A cough? Would 3 weeks vacation be safer? Yup. Cheaper? Yup?

Also sick people are not always rational. The nurse from Dallas took two plane trips and we know she had a fever. Her travel mates are LUCKY. Why did she board a plane with a fever?

What if someone has a minor cut on a hand and they spread blood through a large cities transportation system? What if they are coughing on a plane? What if they vomit and just appear (or are also) drunk?

What I have read is only ONE viron is needed for infection. 1

Cure rate in the US is based on an amount of patients less than 10. You do statistics? 

What happens if there is an outbreak and no health workers NOT under quarantine to tend the other sick?


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## thepeartree

And we both know what the state of the supply of nurses is. There's the second strike. I suspect you may have heard what is killing our health system: medicare.

As for the quarantine on health workers, the only other acceptable way of handling it is installing level 4 equipment at every hospital with a client population over 30000. And who will pay for it? There are so many scary things waiting to be fixed now that aren't being funded. The only way around it may be to leave this country.


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## indie

Perhaps a dedicated team of health care workers for ebola, but good luck getting signups for that. I definitely do not envy health care workers right now.


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## Ice Queen

Right now, where we are the 21 days of in home makes sense. I'm an RN and frankly, if I cared for an Ebola patient, I would not go near my family. I retired fairly young and could be called back into the workforce if this blew up. I would not share a living space with my family. Period. Same goes for those I don't know. We don't know enough about the virus, that said, I'm still amazed that Duncan's family did not get it, nor either of the boyfriends of both infected nurses.

I believe the disease probably doesn't transmit effectively until one is actually pretty ill, as in vomiting, with diarrhea....BUT, there could be other issues such as asymptomatic carriers, superspreaders etc.

IF AND WHEN this goes global, we would need 5 times the health care workers we have if we plan to quarantine them all. I guess I am saying that IF it goes ballistic, and we get hundreds of cases here, my thought is....it's every man/woman for him/herself.

I guess what I am saying is, I have worked in inpatient settings when flu or noro goes thru and even there you need double the staff. With Ebola, you need double the double because you need to use 2 nurses as one due to the buddy system needed not to spread this.

My hope is that we can contain this in W. Africa, but now that Mali is involved, it's looking bleaker.


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## Camel923

survival said:


> Touchy subject, but what do you think? Should people have the right to NOT be forced into a quarantine environment or should they not have the right and be confined until tests prove otherwise?
> 
> When I worked in the medical field, I know patients could leave the hospital "AMA" (Against Medical Advice), but this is a who new ballgame. What are a persons rights during a quarantine?


Historically there are Supreme Court decisions that allow and advocate quarantine for public health as a legitimate constitutional function of the state. One I am thinking of was a situation that involved suit by a ships captain that had his ship quarantined in New Orleans with those stricken with Yellow Fever? I think. It may have been something else. He lost. It is also been used by civilizations for centuries to protect populations and armies (more troops lost to disease than actual combat by far).

Having said that, failure of government to enforce a quarantine or allowing an individual to say no to a quarantine and allow highly infectious spread of disease allows me to exercise the God given right to self defense for me and my family as I see fit. Just my point of view.


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## Daddy O

survival said:


> Touchy subject, but what do you think? Should people have the right to NOT be forced into a quarantine environment or should they not have the right and be confined until tests prove otherwise?
> 
> When I worked in the medical field, I know patients could leave the hospital "AMA" (Against Medical Advice), but this is a who new ballgame. What are a persons rights during a quarantine?


Absolutely quarantine. Absolutely, positively, yes. Ebola is a dinosaur of a virus, and it has the ability to mutate into an airborne virus (and has right here in America, twice). This virus could knock our dicks in the dirt as it exists now, but airborne would pummel us off the planet. It's a bad death too. It destroys your cells so you have all this necropic tissue and you turn to pus and oozing stuff as your body rits while you are still wearing it. It will do this to you, your wife, your children. Even if you survive it, you are going to spend the rest of your life in an NBC hazmat zone because of all the bodily fluids that may have been dropped here or there. A little vomit, or someone rubbed their arm across the door handle, or dead bodies leaked puss into the gutters...the stuff would be everywhere and you would be dodging it for the rest of your life.

Ebola is a game changer. At least until there are sufficient quantities of the antiserum, I say universal precautions for all coming from an infected zone. Right now if it got loose, we would need six months to manufacture any appreciable quantities of serum, but by then there would be no one to run the machines.


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## thepeartree

The 'great' state of maine's judges disagree. They've let the nurse go free. They may or may not agree about the self defense. But it is up to each state. That may not be the wisest thing, but nobody has made wisdom a job requirement for politicians and judges.


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## bravoniner

If they have ebola and go around other people it is the same as people with aids having sex with some one and giving them aids. That is treated as a form of murder. How would spreading ebola be any different?


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## BagLady

I vote FOR quarentine. If there is any question of exposure. It's selfish to do otherwise. (IMO)


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## tirednurse

As a nurse what bothers me is that this nurse in Maine is not acting professionally. She may not be contagious yet or ever but why not stay home and prevent the stress and panic she causes by wandering the streets. Is it so difficult to just sit at home and wait for a few days? why cause all this trouble. people do not understand this disease and there is no reason to add to the panic people have been feeling. If she does end up with it now, how many should be quarantined that she would have come in contact with?


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## thepeartree

And should be criminal. I gave up spending time on this subject. I offered a prayer for the future of our people. That's about all you can do.


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## Sockpuppet

I'm sure that everybody here has good intentions upon the subject of quarantine, albeit viscerally. The science to date, states that there is no such thing as an "Ebola" Typhoid Mary, nor is Ebola a respiratory illness. A person must be symptomatic in order to spread the disease, and it cannot spread beyond droplet form.

What happens when the next hospital worker who becomes infected domestically? Given enough time, it will happen. 

Will you also advocate that every caregiver, housekeeper, and technical engineer potentially exposed, be quarantined whilst not only providing exclusive care to that one person, but 21 days after the patient is cured or expired........just to "be safe"? 

Do you understand the implications, the magnitude of such? There is already a shortage of qualified healthcare professionals, so please imagine the slippery slope that you place upon entire professions. Furthermore, there are many a hospital administrator that will not provide compensation for the quarantined employee, with a marginal workman's compensation benefit and disability insurance (if even possessed) questionable for reimbursement if the person isn't sick.

Healthcare delivery is both an art and science with consideration of the whole person. The subjective art is caring for the individual, whilst the objective science provides the direction for care. Treating the person holistically, providing for their needs, keeping them informed, and assuring a voice in their own healthcare decisions is a standard we don't want to lose. To allow such, would be more devastating to our healthcare system than Medicare and ObamaCare combined.


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## Sockpuppet

thepeartree said:


> The trouble is, people are scared of ebola. That despite the fact that the cure rate *in the U.S.* has been great. Only 1 death. So, do we make people feel safe or do we inconvenience one person for 3 weeks. I, too, think it's worth the quarantine IF they worked with someone who was infected (for sure).


Remember that one death, might well could have been mitigated if the disease was recognized when presented to the treating physician.

The fact that a delay in effective treatment for two days, was likely the reason for such.


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## Ice Queen

This is the point I was trying to make. If we insist on quarantining EVERY person who cares for an Ebola patient once it breaks loose here, all our nurses, doctors and lab personnel will be sitting home watching Netflix. We will literally run out of health care professionals, and fast.


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## Ice Queen

Also, I just read an article stating that ventilators and kidney dialysis WERE used on the 'sickest patients' here in the US. I'm assuming this was Duncan, Writebol, Sacra and Brantly, at minimum. Just so folks know, THAT level of care, will NOT be available to the masses, if there are infected masses. We have a very limited supply of ventilators nationally, and even for kidney dialysis, not to mention once that machinery is used for Ebola patients, that's it...it never goes back into circulation. It's 'dedicated'. So, keep in mind a certain number of ventilators and dialysis machines need to be kept for non-Ebola patients. Yep, yep, we could be in a pickle.


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## indie

I'd love to read that article, Ice Queen. Do you have a link? I'm researching ebola treatments.


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## Mish

I have to agree...quarantine!!

It's troubling to me that someone that has probably seen people die horrible deaths has such little regard for the lives around her. Why would you ever want to take a chance that you could give that horrible virus to someone?!! I have no understanding of this thought process!!


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## Ice Queen

Here is the article. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/01/u...-as-crucial-to-ebola-treatment-in-africa.html

And yes, quarantine can work, but if you quarantine ALL health care workers, what will you do for replacements? Believe it or not, running a ventilator or dialysis is a very technical skill.

To change the abysmal CFR of 70%, intervention is needed. An IV is a must for most patients. IV access is a dangerous procedure. Labs are a must, given that they probably don't have a PICC line or some access, this means venipuncture, another dangerous procedure. If they do have a PICC or central line, still it's dangerous. Electrolytes must be replaced. 8-10 LITERS of fluid lost in the critical phase. Blood products may need to be given. Patient may have respiratory failure or secondary pneumonia, intubation and vent. Kidney failure, needing dialysis. THIS is the kind of care that allows 7 out of 8 patients like we have had to live. In a pandemic, THIS level of care is not going to be available.

In Africa, it's Oral Rehydration Fluids (like pedialyte) and what drugs they can get for comfort. Few places have labs. IV therapy is rare because they don't have the staff to make sure the patients don't pull them out. I can't imagine the misery.


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## A J

Ice Queen really appears to understand this (and hits on my biggest question).

Are all the nurses/doctors that are treating Ebola patients here in the US under an ongoing quarantine? Nope. 

If quarantining every healthcare worker arriving from oversees is logical, how is NOT quarantining the healthcare workers here logical?

We are accepting travelers from W. Africa into the US at our airports (as long as they don't have a fever). Is this logical?

If you were in W. Africa and came in contact with Ebola, where would you try to travel to with the US having a 90% cure rate? 
You bet you'll try to get here, lie on your forms and then drop into the hospital if you get sick.

My logic tells me we are all worried about something that will kill far fewer folks here in the US than a typical weekend of drunk driving does across the country.

What I am worried about, what the politicians will accomplish during this panic? Remember, "never let a crisis go to waste"!


AJ


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## Ice Queen

It is highly unlikely that we will get an Ebola pandemic like they have in West Africa, however, if we do not control the epidemic in Africa (that window is closing), it will seed all over the undeveloped world and become ENDEMIC, or forever an issue.

I don't think you will see the kind of spread here that they have in Africa, because we are not crowded into small shacks. We have sanitation services. We have hospitals. That is not to say that even several dozen Ebola cases would not stress our health care system, it would.

I think we have to reserve judgment on how this will spread here, until we have more information on how this is contained in Africa, and honestly, it worries me a bit with new spread to Mali, and the fall of government in Burkina Faso.

In terms of what will kill you today, Ebola is last on the list, but it could batter our health care system and wreak a lot of havoc if it gets loose here. Our chances of it getting loose here are lower if it is contained over there.

I'm on the fence about quarantine for our own health care workers. I think that for those coming here from W. Africa, a 21 day home quarantine isn't the worst. Kaci Hickox made a point, but she didn't come off as very considerate. Really, she is out in the middle of nowhere, who is she going to give it to? Our problem is we have no consistent message on what is the best way to go. 

We are a heartbeat, and I mean heartbeat of getting a pandemic of AIRBORNE disease. H7N9 has mutated now to affected younger people. It is an avian flu that kills 60% of those it affects. China had an issue with it last year. It still doesn't spread well human to human but it does. We still don't have a good vaccine for H5N1, another very serious avian flu which does spread human to human. Ebola isn't done with us yet. We don't know how it will do in a cooler climate in terms of persistence on fomites. It's possible it may like a cooler climate. We WILL have Ebola outbreaks and we have not seen the worst of it yet.

Ebola will cause huge havoc if it makes the jump out of Africa to lesser developed nations, that is where all our stuff is made. Imagine a world without stuff. No PPEs, no medical supplies, etc. I struggle to find stuff made in the USA.


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## ekim

You can't change stupid, IMO. The west has been trying for years to help and educate the people of africa and they don't seem to care / understand. How much money and goodwill have been wasted trying to improve those people and what has been gained. They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. Just like the muslim community, they have they're ways and we won't be changing they're lifestyle any time soon! Like trying to get a liberal to use common sense, not going to happen. Or shall I say like this forum, it wasn't broken but it needed to be changed because by being divided it will bring us together. Change because you / we / I want to change something isn't always the correct thing to do or the smart thing. Being PC may sound great but is it the best for all concerned every time.


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## Ice Queen

You would not cradle your dying child?


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## Ice Queen

Our humanness, the desire to care for our loved ones, during illness and after death, is what makes us so vulnerable to the spread of this disease. There is not ONE person in here, who would not risk Ebola to care for their sick family. I would die for my loved ones, certainly, if they had Ebola, I would care for them if there was no hospital bed available.

Texas Health Presbyterian is a very modern hospital and yet, the disease spread there.

Ebola is the enemy. You can't shoot it. That is scary for a lot of people.


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## ekim

Ice Queen said:


> Our humanness, the desire to care for our loved ones, during illness and after death, is what makes us so vulnerable to the spread of this disease. There is not ONE person in here, who would not risk Ebola to care for their sick family. I would die for my loved ones, certainly, if they had Ebola, I would care for them if there was no hospital bed available.
> 
> Texas Health Presbyterian is a very modern hospital and yet, the disease spread there.
> 
> Ebola is the enemy. You can't shoot it. That is scary for a lot of people.


But how many people are you willing to infect to watch your child die. While a noble thing to do, do you have the right to put others in the same situation, IMO, no, nor does anyone else!


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## Ice Queen

Ekim, YOU may be the infected one. Ebola does not discriminate.


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## Ice Queen

Just so you know, I have not volunteered to go to West Africa, and frankly I don't feel that good about that. I have health issues and really, I would probably not be much help in the rigorous climate there. Passing out while in PPE is a huge pain for the workers that would have to tend to you. I would like to say I am so brave that I would risk going, but, in reality, I am not. I have grown children, grandchildren, and I am raising a young grandchild. I'm not the best candidate, but I truly respect those willing to live their Christian faith, or whatever faith, that go there to do God's work. They are heroes, beyond my comprehension, and I used to be a First Responder too, in addition to being an RN, and have risked my life to save others. Ebola is a bird of a different color. I am thinking that I am not the one to be lucky enough to survive it.

In terms of quarantine, yes, I would quarantine myself for 21 after working with an Ebola patient.....but a time could come, where you won't know where you caught it from.


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## ekim

Ice Queen said:


> Just so you know, I have not volunteered to go to West Africa, and frankly I don't feel that good about that. I have health issues and really, I would probably not be much help in the rigorous climate there. Passing out while in PPE is a huge pain for the workers that would have to tend to you. I would like to say I am so brave that I would risk going, but, in reality, I am not. I have grown children, grandchildren, and I am raising a young grandchild. I'm not the best candidate, but I truly respect those willing to live their Christian faith, or whatever faith, that go there to do God's work. They are heroes, beyond my comprehension, and I used to be a First Responder too, in addition to being an RN, and have risked my life to save others. Ebola is a bird of a different color. I am thinking that I am not the one to be lucky enough to survive it.
> 
> In terms of quarantine, yes, I would quarantine myself for 21 after working with an Ebola patient.....*but a time could come, where you won't know where you caught it from.*


But the government, CDC and now some stupid nurse and an even dumber judge feel you / me and many others are wrong about how to contain this hard to catch illness. They ARE willing to put others at risk just to be correct in they're opinion of personal rights, but then again we let murders, rapist, child molesters, known terrorists, HIV positive people run around and put so many in harms way just to be PC. We as a people have become so dumb'd down that there is little to say that will matter anymore.


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## Ice Queen

Giving the government MORE power could be a problem. :/ and quarantine is pretty much imprisonment.

One thing about Ebola that we need to keep in mind is that NONE of Duncan's family caught it. That, to me, is amazing. The 2 nurses got it because he was in a fulminant stage and they didn't have the right PPE. In the fulminant stage, there is so much fluid coming out of the patient, that aerosolization is a given. I would not care for a fulminant case without having a PAPR unit, which they NOW use. The other thing, is the 2 nurses seemed to have milder cases. None of the boyfriends got it. So far, Dr. Spencer's fiancé had not gotten it.

Kaci Hickox is not representative of all nurses. Dozens if not hundreds of health care workers likely did self quarantine, and many probably didn't even go home to family.

I am totally for safety. That said, we will not have enough health care workers to handle an outbreak across the nation, say 20-30 cases at once, in each city over a million. I think that would really strain us. What would we ask of those workers? To remain at the hospital regardless of their responsibilities at home? To remain on the job, indefinitely due to an ongoing quarantine? If we did that, many will walk. I think that we need to address this issue. We need a solution. I don't know what it is. I am pointing out a problem with tossing every one in quarantine for 21 days. To be honest, if we had that many cases in one city, I would be in my hidey hole.


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## ekim

Ice Queen said:


> Ekim, YOU may be the infected one. Ebola does not discriminate.


If that were to happen I would get as far away from everyone as I could to prevent me from infecting others, unless I could get to the WH / congress, then it would be game on and give out sloppy kisses to as many as possible. I would profile like bitch, I'm not PC at all. Share the love!


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## Sockpuppet

Mish said:


> I have to agree...quarantine!!
> 
> It's troubling to me that someone that has probably seen people die horrible deaths has such little regard for the lives around her. Why would you ever want to take a chance that you could give that horrible virus to someone?!! I have no understanding of this thought process!!


Its the science which is important in this matter, not the emotion. If she isn't symptomatic, she isn't contagious.



Ice Queen said:


> ........And yes, quarantine can work, but if you quarantine ALL health care workers, what will you do for replacements?........





A J said:


> ........If quarantining every healthcare worker arriving from oversees is logical, how is NOT quarantining the healthcare workers here logical?.......


These two statements are the pragmatics.


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## Sockpuppet

Ice Queen said:


> Giving the government MORE power could be a problem. :/ and quarantine is pretty much imprisonment.
> 
> One thing about Ebola that we need to keep in mind is that NONE of Duncan's family caught it. That, to me, is amazing. The 2 nurses got it because he was in a fulminant stage and they didn't have the right PPE. In the fulminant stage, there is so much fluid coming out of the patient, that aerosolization is a given. I would not care for a fulminant case without having a PAPR unit, which they NOW use. The other thing, is the 2 nurses seemed to have milder cases. None of the boyfriends got it. So far, Dr. Spencer's fiancé had not gotten it.
> 
> Kaci Hickox is not representative of all nurses. Dozens if not hundreds of health care workers likely did self quarantine, and many probably didn't even go home to family.
> 
> I am totally for safety. That said, we will not have enough health care workers to handle an outbreak across the nation, say 20-30 cases at once, in each city over a million. I think that would really strain us. What would we ask of those workers? To remain at the hospital regardless of their responsibilities at home? To remain on the job, indefinitely due to an ongoing quarantine? If we did that, many will walk. I think that we need to address this issue. We need a solution. I don't know what it is. I am pointing out a problem with tossing every one in quarantine for 21 days. To be honest, if we had that many cases in one city, I would be in my hidey hole.


QFT. There is already a problem with the retention of healthcare workers within the profession. Placing unreasonable and unpaid restrictions upon a group of people who already understand the disease, would result in unintended consequences so severe, the lack of healthcare workers would kill more than those infected with EBOV in the U.S.


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## thepeartree

Ice Queen said:


> It is highly unlikely that we will get an Ebola pandemic like they have in West Africa, however, if we do not control the epidemic in Africa (that window is closing), it will seed all over the undeveloped world and become ENDEMIC, or forever an issue.
> 
> I don't think you will see the kind of spread here that they have in Africa, because we are not crowded into small shacks. We have sanitation services. We have hospitals. That is not to say that even several dozen Ebola cases would not stress our health care system, it would.
> 
> I think we have to reserve judgment on how this will spread here, until we have more information on how this is contained in Africa, and honestly, it worries me a bit with new spread to Mali, and the fall of government in Burkina Faso.
> 
> In terms of what will kill you today, Ebola is last on the list, but it could batter our health care system and wreak a lot of havoc if it gets loose here. Our chances of it getting loose here are lower if it is contained over there.
> 
> I'm on the fence about quarantine for our own health care workers. I think that for those coming here from W. Africa, a 21 day home quarantine isn't the worst. Kaci Hickox made a point, but she didn't come off as very considerate. Really, she is out in the middle of nowhere, who is she going to give it to? Our problem is we have no consistent message on what is the best way to go.
> 
> We are a heartbeat, and I mean heartbeat of getting a pandemic of AIRBORNE disease. H7N9 has mutated now to affected younger people. It is an avian flu that kills 60% of those it affects. China had an issue with it last year. It still doesn't spread well human to human but it does. We still don't have a good vaccine for H5N1, another very serious avian flu which does spread human to human. Ebola isn't done with us yet. We don't know how it will do in a cooler climate in terms of persistence on fomites. It's possible it may like a cooler climate. We WILL have Ebola outbreaks and we have not seen the worst of it yet.
> 
> Ebola will cause huge havoc if it makes the jump out of Africa to lesser developed nations, that is where all our stuff is made. Imagine a world without stuff. No PPEs, no medical supplies, etc. I struggle to find stuff made in the USA.


The thing that makes ebola a danger is that we haven't even touched the base disease vector pool. All those monkeys are still out there and it's a culture that EATS monkeys! And if we fix that, we have yet to deal with the bats that infected the monkeys. On that basis, I think we can already regard it as endemic. We've known of its existence for decades and we stupidly ignored it because it was someone else's problem.

I agree that ebola is going to be a severe stress to our way of life if it breaks containment. If the disease doesn't get us, the fear of it will. Just like all viruses, we can't really kill the thing once the host is infected. Fortunately for us, this is fairly effective and once they recover they're safe for a while.

Now, an airborne flu that we know about is bad, but airborne ebola is something we don't even want to think about. That is the one that would cause serious shtf fever.


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## ekim

Sockpuppet said:


> QFT. There is already a problem with the retention of healthcare workers within the profession. *Placing unreasonable and unpaid restrictions upon a group of people who already understand the disease*, would result in unintended consequences so severe, the lack of healthcare workers would kill more than those infected with EBOV in the U.S.


If they understand the disease, then they should also understand that they can transmit it to others if they get infected. A highly trained person should understand that they must avoid contact with others. If they got infected through contact at work, then the work place should cover treatment and wages. If we don't bring infected people here from the infected areas then those highly trained heathcare workers won't be infected and pose a threat to others, problem solved. If you can afford to go to africa and work with deadly diseases then you can afford to stay in quarantine til it's proven you are not infectious. Problem solved, Ebola not spread by stupid people doing stupid things. If those working with infected people are so stupid and heartless that they don't care to possibly infect others then I don't care what happens to them, good or bad. If you are a truly loving / caring person you don't put others at risk just because you once did a good thing to help others! In America you can not yell out fire or a false warning just because and not pay a price, should not the same be said for a contagious disease person?


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## thepeartree

Ice Queen said:


> Giving the government MORE power could be a problem. :/ and quarantine is pretty much imprisonment.
> 
> One thing about Ebola that we need to keep in mind is that NONE of Duncan's family caught it. That, to me, is amazing. The 2 nurses got it because he was in a fulminant stage and they didn't have the right PPE. In the fulminant stage, there is so much fluid coming out of the patient, that aerosolization is a given. I would not care for a fulminant case without having a PAPR unit, which they NOW use. The other thing, is the 2 nurses seemed to have milder cases. None of the boyfriends got it. So far, Dr. Spencer's fiancé had not gotten it.
> 
> Kaci Hickox is not representative of all nurses. Dozens if not hundreds of health care workers likely did self quarantine, and many probably didn't even go home to family.
> 
> I am totally for safety. That said, we will not have enough health care workers to handle an outbreak across the nation, say 20-30 cases at once, in each city over a million. I think that would really strain us. What would we ask of those workers? To remain at the hospital regardless of their responsibilities at home? To remain on the job, indefinitely due to an ongoing quarantine? If we did that, many will walk. I think that we need to address this issue. We need a solution. I don't know what it is. I am pointing out a problem with tossing every one in quarantine for 21 days. To be honest, if we had that many cases in one city, I would be in my hidey hole.


Someone, somewhere will figure out the only two answers for this: either find some who is naturally immune and work out a vaccine or we use the smarts we claimt to have and engineer an artificial anti-virus.

I'm not sure what scares me most- the ebola or an artificial antiviral.


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## Sockpuppet

ekim said:


> If they understand the disease, then they should also understand that they can transmit it to others if they get infected. A highly trained person should understand that they must avoid contact with others. If they got infected through contact at work, then the work place should cover treatment and wages. If we don't bring infected people here from the infected areas then those highly trained heathcare workers won't be infected and pose a threat to others, problem solved. If you can afford to go to africa and work with deadly diseases then you can afford to stay in quarantine til it's proven you are not infectious. Problem solved, Ebola not spread by stupid people doing stupid things. If those working with infected people are so stupid and heartless that they don't care to possibly infect others then I don't care what happens to them, good or bad. If you are a truly loving / caring person you don't put others at risk just because you once did a good thing to help others! In America you can not yell out fire or a false warning just because and not pay a price, should not the same be said for a contagious disease person?


Again, one is not contagious, until one is symptomatic.

Again, there are health care workers who treat those infected with EBOV within the borders of the United States. Not every person potentially exposed to EBOV, is exposed in Africa.

So are you wanting to quarantine every person for 21 days, who cares for an infected EBOV patient right here in the good ol' USA, and despite not showing any sign or symptom of infection? You're going to start running out doctors, nurses, therapists, and techs......really quick.

So please, what is your alternative to replacing them?


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## Sockpuppet

thepeartree said:


> Someone, somewhere will figure out the only two answers for this: either find some who is naturally immune and work out a vaccine or we use the smarts we claimt to have and engineer an artificial anti-virus.
> 
> I'm not sure what scares me most- the ebola or an artificial antiviral.


There are a half a dozen doctors and nurses who have built antibodies to EBOV, right here in the U.S.


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## Ice Queen

After seeing that none of Duncan's, Phams, Vinson's or Spencer's contacts have gotten Ebola, I am more of the opinion that it is usually only contagious in the fulminant stage, that is, when the person has vomiting or diarrhea, although, perhaps it is present in blood a few days before that, but by then, the person probably has a fever. I certainly would be willing as a nurse, to submit to daily venipuncture for an Ebola test, if I worked with Ebola patients.

If we quarantine every one who takes care of Ebola patients in the long run, we will run out of nurses and doctors. We don't have enough now that can provide critical care.

It's a problem that needs a solution.

That said.....I am also of the opinion, that if this would develop into a major outbreak, we won't have enough staff, ventilators, dialysis machines, places to dispose of waste and on and on. There would be no possible way to provide the current level of care to the masses. The idea of stamping out embers as they flare here and there make me very nervous. This is another problem that needs a solution or at least some honesty as to what we would be up against.


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## TG

WHO urges sneeze protection while CDC retreats


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## Ice Queen

By the time that sneeze is contagious, the person is also puking.


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## thepeartree

Sockpuppet said:


> There are a half a dozen doctors and nurses who have built antibodies to EBOV, right here in the U.S.


Perhaps, but there no clinical studies to prove any one of them works. Every one is labeled "experimental". Do YOU want to trust your life and the lives of your loved ones to an experiment?


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## Ice Queen

It's contagious enough without being concerned about the 'what if' scenarios. We WILL get clusters of this. People will inadvertently get puked on or touch a surface somewhere where a person who thought they had the flu suddenly gets the runs, as the disease becomes more frequent here. Right now, we know for the most part, who is at risk, and believe me, some one is probably watching them, given our penchant for lack of privacy laws. It's not spreading like an airborne virus, nor like Norovirus, which spreads like crazy but isn't airborne. If it was either of those 2 things, I would be in my hidey hole.


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## Ice Queen

I would ABSOLUTELY receive antibody plasma from a recovered patient if I caught Ebola. I don't think they have concluded that a plasma infusion confers vaccination.


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## thepeartree

No, but it may well help. They've used that tactic 3 times that I know of and all 3 lived. If I caught it, I would absolutely try every single item on the list, proved or not. Of course I'd be happier if it was proved...


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## Ice Queen

What is going to complicate things is that the WHO recipe for the seasonal flu vaccine was off. A(H3N2) has mutated significantly. The current vaccine does not appear to be similar enough to protect immunized people from the disease this year.....so....this means that a lot of people who were immunized will get the flu, will end up costing the system a heck of a lot of money when they arrive at the ER or Urgent Care, feeling and looking for all the world, like they have Ebola. So, if you did get this year's vaccine, there is a chance you WILL get the flu, H3N2 anyway. Hopefully you won't get tossed in the hoosgow for a few days until they clear you.


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## thepeartree

Or... people will get the news and everybody goes in for a supplemental shot. If so, I doubt anyone would blink. In fact, with ymthe ebola scare, they might get even more people to get one.


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## Ice Queen

They can't just make a vaccine out of plasma, however they are working on a vaccine, but it may be 18 months out. This is an interesting read on predicting cases.

Scientists Try to Predict Number of US Ebola Cases - ABC News


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## Ice Queen

Canada just went the way of Australia.

Canada won?t issue visas to residents of countries with widespread Ebola | National Post


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## indie

That's okay, the US has their backs. Pretty soon we'll be offering all expenses paid travel to the US for everyone in affected countries.


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## ekim

Sockpuppet said:


> Again, one is not contagious, until one is symptomatic.
> 
> Again, there are health care workers who treat those infected with EBOV within the borders of the United States. Not every person potentially exposed to EBOV, is exposed in Africa.
> 
> So are you wanting to quarantine every person for 21 days, who cares for an infected EBOV patient right here in the good ol' USA, and despite not showing any sign or symptom of infection? You're going to start running out doctors, nurses, therapists, and techs......really quick.
> 
> So please, what is your alternative to replacing them?


We could start by not bring those already infected to the USA in the first place. If a person wants to go over to africa and help fine, but your in quarantine for x amount of days before you step foot back in the USA, no questions ask just do it. You come to the USA infected under false pretense and are caught, they pay one hell of a price. IMO, that would be an act of terrorism, punishable by death.


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## Ice Queen

Quelling the infection THERE, is a service to our people, our country. The fewer of them getting infected means the fewer of US getting infected. Any of our people infected there, should absolutely be flown home for care. If this continues we will be sending the army full scale because the disease will not only be killing people but also toppling governments, and we will really have our hands full.

Once again tho, America is stuck holding the bag with no one wanting to help. This sounds so darn familiar.


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## Sockpuppet

ekim said:


> We could start by not bring those already infected to the USA in the first place. If a person wants to go over to africa and help fine, but your in quarantine for x amount of days before you step foot back in the USA, no questions ask just do it. You come to the USA infected under false pretense and are caught, they pay one hell of a price. IMO, that would be an act of terrorism, punishable by death.





Ice Queen said:


> Quelling the infection THERE, is a service to our people, our country. The fewer of them getting infected means the fewer of US getting infected. Any of our people infected there, should absolutely be flown home for care. If this continues we will be sending the army full scale because the disease will not only be killing people but also toppling governments, and we will really have our hands full.
> 
> Once again tho, America is stuck holding the bag with no one wanting to help. This sounds so darn familiar.


What Ice Queen said.


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## thepeartree

Ice Queen said:


> What is going to complicate things is that the WHO recipe for the seasonal flu vaccine was off. A(H3N2) has mutated significantly. The current vaccine does not appear to be similar enough to protect immunized people from the disease this year.....so....this means that a lot of people who were immunized will get the flu, will end up costing the system a heck of a lot of money when they arrive at the ER or Urgent Care, feeling and looking for all the world, like they have Ebola. So, if you did get this year's vaccine, there is a chance you WILL get the flu, H3N2 anyway. Hopefully you won't get tossed in the hoosgow for a few days until they clear you.


Ah, but a blood test will tell whay virii are present. Quarantine at least until the blood work comes back...


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## Sockpuppet

thepeartree said:


> Ah, but a blood test will tell whay virii are present. Quarantine at least until the blood work comes back...


There are a number of rapid antigen diagnostics that can be performed in about 15 minutes. Those symptomatic of similarly presenting illnesses can be rapidly diagnosed and likely excluded, dependent upon the assessed risk.

Why throw the 85 year old Great Grandma into an EBOV isolation, who hasn't left her 2,000 person town in Iowa in 35 years, simply because she presents a fever and diarrhea?


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