# Need some info from resident solar experts please!



## SittingElf (Feb 9, 2016)

I am totally ignorant of solar setups and equipment and need some help to design a small, specific purpose system.

I am setting up a large aquaponics system and the pumps for the fish tank and beds require roughly 100watts continuous power each. I will have probably two tanks, so I'm looking for a system I can install that will provide about 300-500 watts continuous 24/7 if the grid goes down. That gives me the power for the pumps as well as some additional energy for lighting or other needs when necessary. This is to be a dedicated system for the stated use only....not for the house.

So....solar panels would have to produce that wattage daytime, as well as produce enough additional juice to charge batteries that would continue the power feed through the nights.

I live in South Central Florida along the Atlantic coast, so Sunlight is generally not a problem.

Can someone here help me come up with a system/panels/batteries/inverters that will meet my needs?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

What voltage does this setup run on?


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## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

I think you may need to consider using different pumps to save money.... 12 volt or 24 volt would be best


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## SittingElf (Feb 9, 2016)

I can get 12 or 24 volt pumps for sure. That is certainly an option.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

Stay away from the HF or NT panels, just buy a couple of Sharp 235 Watt poly panels with a couple of golf cart batteries from Costco, and a charge controler of your choice.

Or go to one of the several Solar sites and ask the experts, Northern Arizona Wind and Sun is hosted by the company but run by the experts.

*Rancher*


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## baldman (Apr 5, 2016)

First you need 10000 Lemons a ton of pins . LMAO OK I amsorry I thought it was funny.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

The 300 watt 24 hrs a day requirement is going to make for an expensive battery bank. Batteries last a lot longer if you don't overly discharge them before recharging. DOD = depth of discharge. So if you have a larger battery bank you will be discharging the batteries less making for longer battery life. You really want to avoid discharging your batteries more than 50% DOD very often so...

Let's say you want about a 36 hr reserve (no sun for a day and 2 long nights) before you get to 50% DOD while pulling 300 watts continuously. That would require a 48v battery bank with 504 amp/hrs capacity costing about $4200 for fairly good batteries and cables. Are you sure you can't reduce your power needs before I sketch out a system for you?

My 1600 sf home is 90% solar powered. My battery bank is a 48v 395 amp hr and we usually can go 48 hrs with little to no sun washing clothes, well pump, dishwasher, refrigerator, microwave, toaster oven ect before we get to 50% DOD. My electric stove, and clothes dryer are not on the solar system.

The trick is to have energy efficient devices (pumps in your case) and some common sense electrical habits.


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## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

ok, lets start at the beginning

how many gallons per hour do you need to pump?
what is the rise.. are you pumping it up and it is falling or are you just rotating it

what size pipes do you have or do you need


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## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

Remco 12 Volt Self-Priming RV/Transfer Water Pump - 204GPH, 1/2in. Ports, Model# 55AQUAJET-AES | 12 Volt Pumps| Northern Tool + Equipment

Remco 12 Volt Self-Priming RV/Transfer Water Pump - 204GPH, 1/2in. Ports, 6.5 amps
running 24 hours it will use 156 amp hours

this panel will produce 10 amps per hour http://media.wix.com/ugd/763cd0_ada2ff7eefa84ebe98f45eaa1e669017.pdf

This controller will handle 20 amp 12 volt MorningStar SS-20L-12V - SunSaver 20 Amp 12 Volt PWM Charge Controller

in order to have the need 468 amps to cover 3 cloudless days you will need 5 105 amp hour batterys (525 AH)

2 100 watt panel will produce 20 amps an hour (20 x 8 hours = 160) --more sun = more power--


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## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

I think you can do this for under $2,000

Solar $300
Controller $100
Batteries $1,200

look at
Batteries, Chargers & Accessories | Batteries- Lead Acid | AJC® Deka DC27 12V 100Ah Sealed Lead Acid Battery | B1784839 - GlobalIndustrial.com

12 V, 110 Ah Deep Cycle AGM RV Recreational Battery UB121100


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Slippy's-Attorney said:


> Remco 12 Volt Self-Priming RV/Transfer Water Pump - 204GPH, 1/2in. Ports, Model# 55AQUAJET-AES | 12 Volt Pumps| Northern Tool + Equipment
> 
> Remco 12 Volt Self-Priming RV/Transfer Water Pump - 204GPH, 1/2in. Ports, 6.5 amps
> running 24 hours it will use 156 amp hours
> ...


With all respect Sir I do believe he will be less than satisfied with the system you're outlined above. In addition your math on panel power output per hr is a bit off not to mention you're not taking the derail effect into account since the panels will rarely be producing at full power, not to mention the power losses from the battery inefficies and the PMW controller you've suggested clipping off the power as the panel voltages get to high (although Morningstar does make an excellent charge controller). In addition as solar panels grow hot (sunny FL) they become less efficient. And the batteries won't last long with your deep DOD.

A final niggley point. He's looking for quite a bit more power for future additional fiddliy-bits.

I do agree with trying to keep the pump on DC power.


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## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

FoolAmI said:


> With all respect Sir I do believe he will be less than satisfied with the system you're outlined above. In addition your math on panel power output per hr is a bit off not to mention you're not taking the derail effect into account since the panels will rarely be producing at full power, not to mention the power losses from the battery inefficies and the PMW controller you've suggested clipping off the power as the panel voltages get to high (although Morningstar does make an excellent charge controller). In addition as solar panels grow hot (sunny FL) they become less efficient. And the batteries won't last long with your deep DOD.
> 
> A final niggley point. He's looking for quite a bit more power for future additional fiddliy-bits.
> 
> I do agree with trying to keep the pump on DC power.


I am not a solar expert I just play one on TV.... so do not worry about insulting me, I am sure there are many folks on here more knowledgeable then I

Hot versus cold panels is not the problem it use to be - 1.1 % reduction per degree over 107

not sure how my numbers were wrong.. i think i only counted 8 hours a day so as to error on the low side...

deep cycle batteries are designed to deep discharge and be recharged.

I agree he would be better off with 15 batteries

not sure what you mean by "PMW controller you've suggested clipping off the power as the panel voltages get to high"


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## SGT E (Feb 25, 2015)

baldman said:


> First you need 10000 Lemons a ton of pins . LMAO OK I amsorry I thought it was funny.


Don't forget the 300 gallons of Tequilla!!!!!!!!!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Slippy's-Attorney said:


> Hot versus cold panels is not the problem it use to be - 1.1 % reduction per degree over 107


In the hot FL sun the black panels will easily get over 135 degrees so often a 30% reduction in output during peak sun power.

[QUOTE not sure how my numbers were wrong.. i think i only counted 8 hours a day so as to error on the low side...[/QUOTE]

Solar Insolation is the average strong energy hours of good sunlight per day with weather, dust, and humidity taken into consideration.
Miami FL averages 5.62 hrs per day which is lower in the winter and higher in the summer months. Yes, the sun is strong in FL but unless it is directly overhead with low humidity and dust you aren't getting the full power output the panels are capable of,

[QUOTE deep cycle batteries are designed to deep discharge and be recharged.[/QUOTE]

I can't figure how to paste this document but go to http://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/S-550.pdf
It is the tech sheet for a Rolls 550S battery which is considered to be one of the better batteries out there. Look for the Cycle Life vs Depth of Discharge Sheet... All Deep cycle batteries follow this pattern.

[QUOTE I agree he would be better off with 15 batteries.[/QUOTE]

Only if he has them wired in series strings and has sufficient power to properly charge them. Parallel strings of more than 3 batteries will assure that the batteries in the middle of the string will charge unevenly.

[QUOTE not sure what you mean by "PMW controller you've suggested clipping off the power as the panel voltages get to high"[/QUOTE]

PMW controllers control the input to the batteries by limiting voltage and time the batteries receive the charge. So if your 12v battery needs 15 volts to charge and your solar panels are putting out 20 volts the PMW controller "clips" the last 5 volts and doesn't send it to the battery so the battery never gets the last 25% of the power the panels puts out in strong sun. The energy is wasted, especially as the battery gets over 80% charged and voltages rise. 
side note... deeply discharged batteries will suck the additional high voltage down allowing the PMW controller to charge hard with little clipping, once the battery gets above 80-85% charged the voltages climb and the PWM cuts out a lot more power. The trick to using a PMW controller is to get panels that peak at about 18-19v open voltage. Any lower open voltage and the panels can't charge the battery until the sun is fairly strong raising the panel voltage high enough to charge the battery.

MPPT controllers are much more expensive but mostly eliminate this matching panel voltage to battery voltage problem and put much more of the energy into the battery. Because of their lower cost PWM is usually the better choice for systems under 500 watts while the more efficient MPPT controllers become financially justifiable in larger systems.


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## SittingElf (Feb 9, 2016)

Thanks for all the input. I am now looking at greatly lowered wattage requirements, and eliminating the extra power potential. I'll update when I have the real needed figures for the system I am planning. The most important thing is to keep the flow pump(s) and Air pumps running 24/7 if the grid goes down. Everything else is gravy, so my needs may vastly decrease.

I think I can get this down to 100 watts, and maybe even less continuous...and use 12V or 24V pumps. Researching......

This is the system that I am considering. Comes with 110V pumps, but I can use anything. I have to find out what the GPH requirement is though, because it is not listed.

http://shop.endlessfoodsystems.com/sanctuary-120d4p-4-pebble-beds-and-6-hydro-beds/


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## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

SittingElf said:


> Thanks for all the input. I am now looking at greatly lowered wattage requirements, and eliminating the extra power potential. I'll update when I have the real needed figures for the system I am planning. The most important thing is to keep the flow pump(s) and Air pumps running 24/7 if the grid goes down. Everything else is gravy, so my needs may vastly decrease.
> 
> I think I can get this down to 100 watts, and maybe even less continuous...and use 12V or 24V pumps. Researching......
> 
> ...


I wonder if the water has to circulate all the time and if so how often does it need to cycle. The pump I mentioned before would cycle it every hour.. there are other smaller pumps that use less amps

make sure you post pictures when you are done


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## Slippy's-Attorney (Sep 23, 2015)

FoolAmI said:


> In the hot FL sun the black panels will easily get over 135 degrees so often a 30% reduction in output during peak sun power.
> 
> Solar Insolation is the average strong energy hours of good sunlight per day with weather, dust, and humidity taken into consideration.
> Miami FL averages 5.62 hrs per day which is lower in the winter and higher in the summer months. Yes, the sun is strong in FL but unless it is directly overhead with low humidity and dust you aren't getting the full power output the panels are capable of,
> ...


see I told you there were people here that knew more then me


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Slippy's-Attorney said:


> see I told you there were people here that knew more then me


You're an Attorney,,, 'nuf said


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 25, 2014)

Are you only powering the pumps, or is this rig for the lights too.
If you intend to power the grow lamps too, then you will need a lot more wattage, like 2k or so (especially if you use HPS lighting.)

For aquaponics you may not need as much pump as you think. Assuming that your trays run into one another, you are really just dumping water on the top and letting it trickle down through the trays. I run a pump from the hydroponics store that only ran about $40, and takes relatively little power.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Are you only powering the pumps, or is this rig for the lights too.
> If you intend to power the grow lamps too, then you will need a lot more wattage, like 2k or so (especially if you use HPS lighting.)
> 
> For aquaponics you may not need as much pump as you think. Assuming that your trays run into one another, you are really just dumping water on the top and letting it trickle down through the trays. I run a pump from the hydroponics store that only ran about $40, and takes relatively little power.


He was originally wanting a bit of extra juice for extras if the grid is down. He is reconsidering his actual power requirements. An average modern refrigerator needs around 1.25 kwh/day, a small chest freezer (7 cu/ft) is another .7 kwh/day. Add a bit more for recharging batteries and he'll get his realistic emergency power requirement down quite a bit, especially if he can run his pump 6 hrs on and 6 hrs off...... My plug in 120v timer only pulls 1.1 watts so he can put the pump on a timer. That or he can get a tiny low power backup pump that only pulls about 35 watts. Both are options I suggest when aquaphonics guys call me for backup power advice, a call I get several times a year.


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## SittingElf (Feb 9, 2016)

So I've gotten deeper into the actual requirements I'll have with the system, and can significantly reduce my draw requirements.

The water pump has to be capable of continuous circulation. Can't be intermittent or timed. I'll require a minimum 550GPH unit for circulation (2X fish tank volume). Aeration will be required for the fish tank and six raft beds providing minimum 30 L/m through stones.

I can see that 12V pump systems as suggested are available that will support my requirements. Looks like I can get by with around a 100W draw...maybe even a tad less. So....what does that do to me now for Solar requirements? Basically need to be able to light a 100W incandescent lightbulb 24/7!

Just to be clear, the system in total will have the following components: 275 Gallon Fish tank. 4 Media beds. 2 Wicking beds. 6 Floating Raft beds. 

Forget the lights or other accessory power. I can work off of kerosene lanterns or other illumination without solar. The critical factor is to provide air and H2O circulation to the system in order to move nutrients throughout the system and O2 to keep the fish alive, and provide dissolved O2 to the root structures in the raft beds.

Doing my best to plan out this system so it works out the gate. Don't want to have to modify or deal with problems created by poor planning. Too much invested by the time I start growing.

I REALLY appreciate the input so far in this thread. Great info and great folks!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

SittingElf said:


> So I've gotten deeper into the actual requirements I'll have with the system, and can significantly reduce my draw requirements.
> 
> The water pump has to be capable of continuous circulation. Can't be intermittent or timed. I'll require a minimum 550GPH unit for circulation (2X fish tank volume). Aeration will be required for the fish tank and six raft beds providing minimum 30 L/m through stones.
> 
> ...


Ok, Down and dirty rough numbers for a bare minimum system that can produce 2.4 kwhs a day and have a 36 hr battery reserve.

After 36 hrs the batteries would be down to 50% DOD. Panels would charge at a C/8 rate which I would strongly suggest since the pumps will be running continuously pulling 100 watts from the batteries/ panels in the hot FL sun effectively reducing the charge rate to about a C/9.2 charge rate at best.
.
* 12v 500 amp hr battery bank (rated at 20 hr discharge rate) Cost about $1000 with acceptable but lower end batteries.
* 750 watts in panels $750 (NAWS has SW 275 watt panels on sale at 86 cents a watt but probably expensive to ship.)
* 60 amp charge controller $485 (like this Outback FLEXmax 60 MPPT Solar Charge Controller ) This controller is maxed out at 12v 750 watts but can handle 1500w watts if you go with a 24v battery bank. That or get the 80 amp version.
* another 300-800 dollars for panel mounts, wire, fuses/breakers ect. Panels mounts can be really cheap or very expensive depending on how you mount them.
* shipping if any.

This is a marginal system size which will probably make more power than needed during the summer but may occasionally not keep up in winter So if it were my setup I'd consider expanding it by about 30%. I'd also strongly consider making it a 24v system, it uses less expensive wire and better use of the charge controller. Downside of a 24v system is that you can't easily use 12v car stuff like lights and phone chargers.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

how many amps per hour will the pump(s) use??????

need to know that

stick with 12 volt... for this project... other things may be better with 24 but use 12 for this


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

this is 630 gph 12 vdc 2.5 amp

Johnson Pump 500GPH Auto Bilge Pump 3/4" 12V Mag Switch


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

24v pump that depending on head (water vertical rise) can pump up to 412 gph $59
Solar Powered Fountain 12-24V Pump

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...qmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_4wj8h8ytkk_b
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=24+volt+pump

24v air pump http://www.viaircorp.com/
http://www.aliexpress.com/popular/24v-air-pump.html

General rule of thumb.... first 1000 watts of panels, 12v will work assuming you never expect to enlarge the system, 1000 to 2000 watts go with 24v, 2000+ watts go with 48v system.
You should do ok with 12v, Just understand that if you enlarge much more you will wish you had started with 24v.... a lesson I learned the expensive way.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

lets look at pros and cons of making 12 volts batteries into a 24 volt system.

what happens if you have a bad battery and it needs to be replaced

what power loss occurs going 12 to 24

are there more 12 or 24 volt products

what is gained by going to 24 volt

what is lost by going to 24

what is gained by staying with 12

what is lost by staying 12


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## Draq wraith (Oct 25, 2015)

I'm thinking 300w x 24 x 2 = 14400 watts a day?
Yes there are cloudy days and windy days. So I would 2 times that number to have full charges and some power to sell back to the power company if they have net metering or you want to add a third tank.and a back up system is a must.

24 volt system is nice but wouldn't the parts be hard to find in a SHTF situation?
12 v being more common I would think but the 12 v systems break easier.
Then there is the water in the tank salt or regular?
Salt corrodes faster.
Of course these are just my thoughts.


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