# The Flip Side Of "A Good Guy With A Gun"



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

There is a current thread going on armed citizens stopping criminals.

I carry to protect myself and my loved ones. If I'm in a public area and shooting starts, my first duty is to retreat if possible.
NOT to engage a shooter. I will engage if my life is directly threatened and I can not escape. But only then.

Why? Because if you shoot someone, even if you are not charged with a crime, life as you knew it is over. Done.
Suppose one of your rounds strikes an innocent bystander? You will be sued.
You will also most likely be sued by the criminal you shot, or if he's KIA, by his family.

Do you have the special insurance offered to concealed carriers? Do you have several hundred thousand dollars to hire a good attorney?
What if there's a multi million dollar judgement against you? What will you do?

I'm just a Po' Boy. Ain't got much money. I also don't want the memory of one of my bullets killing an innocent child by mistake.
My duty is to survive and support my family.
Therefore I will do my best to escape and evade.
Rambos and keyboard commandos do as you wish.

Read this:
www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/the-flip-side-of-self-defense/


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Agreed. Always leaving the situation if possible is the best case scenario. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

My responsibility is based out of morality and not statute. I'll do what I know is right. Then, I'll make my case to the jury. I'm sure I'll win.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

*Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven*

I believe that wholeheartedly, . . . a season to live, a season to die, a season to fight, and a season to refrain from fighting.

Pick your battles, folks, . . . be sure what you are doing, . . . it can be seriously and eternally wrong to pick the wrong battle.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Very difficult situation to discuss. All situations are different. Situational awareness is key. Scenario driven is something you cant foresee.
You may be just getting gas and a guy comes running out the station with a child as a hostage. I would have to do something. No hostage, let him go? Scenario driven..
I avoid high risk areas, time of day. More overtly cautious nowadays.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

One of the reasons I moved out of the big city into a rural area, was to avoid a possibility of another incident.

The area surrounding the house I owned went down hill fast with the liberal policies of the city and state.

My mothers parents had owned a house and lived only two hundred yards from my purchase.

Growing up, I stayed there too many times to count, three blocks away is the oldest public park in the country.

I use to ride my bike there to play around like any other kid and sail my boat in the pond.

The street between the house and park degenerated into a bunch of bars, pizza joints, drug dealers and users.

I left there 44 years ago and never regretted it, my parents stayed in the house until they died.

I had bought it, and after my divorce the family moved in, five in all, youngest left early for med school.

Plenty of room, a 15 room Victorian built in 1890, with 4 baths. 

Here I live a self imposed publicly isolated life, interacting with others as needed, 

operate business as mail order only, no walk in. 

I am always ready to defend me and mine again, if needed.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

NOT going to risk life and freedom for someone I don't know or care about. If your a loser and can't take care of yourself, for whatever reason, that's not my problem. However mess with the family and it's on bitch. 

Of course remember your 100% responsible for that bullet and anything that happens after it leaves the barrel.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

Wise words. As I sit at keyboard and this is all theoretical at this point I agree 100%, as far as what happens in reality I have no clue how I would react as I've never been in the situation.


Another point to consider is when LEO's arrive on scene they have no idea who the bad guy is and who isn't. They just know what they've been told on the radio and everyone, especially anyone holding a weapon is a threat. Mistaken identity is an unfortunate reality so I suggest total compliance with LEO's commands.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

My initial responsibility is for those I love and trust, of which there are few. My immediate response is to keep them from harms way. If that means slipping out the back door with them in tow, or finding cover, so be it. Alone, I may be more willing to help in a situation, but my first responsibility is always those I love and their safety. Situational awareness and not being where trouble is likely to occur is key. 

Now, my job sometimes requires that I go into some pretty rough areas here in Houston so my readiness level is always high when I am alone and in those areas. 

If left no other choice I will do what is necessary and deal with the consequences. I am not so much concerned about me as I am the ones I care about. A gun should always be the last resort, but one should remember, I don't much care for a lot of people as it is, so odds are I don't care for you and I wont have any trouble pulling the trigger if your threatening me and mine.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Chipper said:


> NOT going to risk life and freedom for someone I don't know or care about. If your a loser and can't take care of yourself, for whatever reason, that's not my problem. However mess with the family and it's on bitch.
> 
> Of course remember your 100% responsible for that bullet and anything that happens after it leaves the barrel.


Exactly my opinion, too.
If you do not carry to protect yourself, and instead rely on police to save you, I certainly will not risk my life for you. You should have been prepared.

There was a time I was willing to die for my Brothers, in fact still am 50 years later. But strangers? No.

Simply google "self defense shooter sued by victim" to see much more.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Denton said:


> My responsibility is based out of morality and not statute. I'll do what I know is right. Then, I'll make my case to the jury. I'm sure I'll win.


Do you have tens of thousands of dollars just laying about to hire a good lawyer?
I don't.
If you do, that's a good thing.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Do you have tens of thousands of dollars just laying about to hire a good lawyer?
> I don't.
> If you do, that's a good thing.


What's the old saying? Every shot you fire in self defense has a lawyer attached to it. To bad, there should be a lawyer at the end of every shot fired. :tango_face_grin:


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I carry, as well. But there is no law that limits you to certain businesses or recreational facilities. For that matter, you don't have to seek out all of your clients if some don't hold to your beliefs and standards.

If you don't like the blue shirt, then wear the red one...


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Denton brought up the moral issue.

I look at it this way, I have a moral obligation to my wife. I swore an oath, before God, that I would be a good husband.
I can not do that if I send us to bankruptcy court. I can not do that if the money that should be spent to ensure us a decent life is spent on legal fees.

Another thing - suppose you are wounded in the exchange. Then you will have medical bills, lost wages from work, and maybe even a permanent, painful disability.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Denton brought up the moral issue.
> 
> I look at it this way, I have a moral obligation to my wife. I swore an oath, before God, that I would be a good husband.
> I can not do that if I send us to bankruptcy court. I can not do that if the money that should be spent to ensure us a decent life is spent on legal fees.
> ...


A fellow in the Air Reserve unit to which I belonged for a few years was the victim of an attempted car-jacking. The punk shot the former Marine in the head with a .380. The victim had the wits to return fire with his 1911. The punk went to where all punks go. 
The shooting was ruled righteous but he was told to check once a month to see if the punk's family was suing him for killing the dindonffin.

Point? You can be defending just yourself and get into legal trouble.

Point? If you're more concerned with lawyers than lives, don't even carry.

To those who are worried about hitting bystanders:
Get good with your EDC. Make sure you can hit the target. Don't resort to spraying bullets like some hood-rat conducting a drive-by during a gang-war.
Learn discipline so you don't panic. Run scenarios through your head when you have time to think. That way, the first time will be the second time.
Take a tactical-shooting course. It'll boost your confidence, build discipline and help prevent a trip into Code Black which will cause you to go hood-rat with your weapon.
Of course, buy the insurance @rice paddy daddy suggested if you can afford it.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke (in a letter addressed to Thomas Mercer). That's the short version, attributed to Burke.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Another thing - suppose you are wounded in the exchange. Then you will have medical bills, lost wages from work, and maybe even a permanent, painful disability.


Well, any fight I can imagine is never blocked and choreographed by a Hollywood director. If something serious is about to unfold, I never hear news stories about how "the good guy cheated and swung first."


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Some people are built for running toward danger, others to seek all means of avoiding it. God bless both.

My wife knows the kind of man I am. She knows it is her responsibility to get the kids and herself to safety. If shots ring out, they get a kiss goodbye and I start moving into the fray.
In my mind, every shot is another life lost. I *WILL* put an end to that senseless violence, or die trying.
I am not dissuaded from doing what is right based on my bank account or potential ramifications.
I train to hit my target. I know where my shots go. Innocent bystanders are not at risk from me.
The only person/people that need fear me are the one(s) that don't think anyone is coming to the aid of their victims. I will bring hell down on them with methodical and calculated ferocity.

I will save lives. That is reason enough.


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## prsmith (Jun 2, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> There is a current thread going on armed citizens stopping criminals.
> 
> I carry to protect myself and my loved ones. If I'm in a public area and shooting starts, my first duty is to retreat if possible.
> NOT to engage a shooter. I will engage if my life is directly threatened and I can not escape. But only then.[/url]


That is certainly one attitude you can take. George Zimmerman can tell you a lot about that and he was simply defending his life. OTOH, you've got to live with yourself if 10 people die after you bug out the back door that might have been saved had you taken your concealed carry responsibility a bit more deeply.

You do what you have to do, I will do what is right and live with any consequences.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

prsmith said:


> That is certainly one attitude you can take. George Zimmerman can tell you a lot about that and he was simply defending his life. OTOH, you've got to live with yourself if 10 people die after you bug out the back door that might have been saved had you taken your concealed carry responsibility a bit more deeply.
> 
> You do what you have to do, I will do what is right and live with any consequences.


Nope.
I already put my time in defending other people. I paid my dues.
"If 10 people die" it won't be on my conscience, because I was not the one who killed them.

You go right ahead and do what you think is right, and I will do the same.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Those who have never been in a gun fight, don't really know what they'll do the first time. Oh, they may believe they do, but they really don't.
They may freeze up. It happens. 

To automatically assume you will jump into action and attempt to save the day is assuming an awful lot.

I didn't even have to think, my body did what it was trained to do. 
How well trained are you? 
And I don't mean 10 hours worth of courses, but real repetitive training, over and over until no thought is required.

Remember, in a life or death situation, even stopping for a fraction of a second to think may get you killed.


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## marineimaging (Jun 1, 2013)

I was participating in a Shoot - Don't Shoot training scenario in the Sheriff's academy. As the film rolled, the action grew intense and the guy we were following sprung up from behind a bed and shot my partner in front of me and then the bad guy throws his shotgun down and surrenders..., just as I shot him. At the same time Of course, what the class saw and what I saw were miles apart. They argued that I just shot a man who was surrendering. I argued that I was justified because what I saw was the bad guy breaking the breach of his shotgun, then attempting to pull the spent shells out and reload with two other shells in his other hand. That was when I aimed and fired. To me it seemed like minutes between his first two shots into my partner and my shots into him. In reality, it was barely 5 seconds between the first two shots and my shots. After we rewound the tape the fact was that when he fumbled at getting the shells out is when he threw the gun down. What I saw was him attempting to reload in order to shoot me. 
That said, my point is, you never know what you are going to do until you are faced with the situation because mere seconds can be the difference between shoot/don't shoot.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Stress will make people do things they never thought they would. I've heard of instructors, who've taught thousands of students, explain that stress will make his best trained ones still forget to do simple things, like flip a safety switch they've flipped thousands of times and trained hundreds of repetitions.
Even people with years of training can't be sure of how they will react under real stress in a new scenario. Hume teaches us that past experiences do not guarantee future outcomes. Under the right fear conditions, most people even forget to breathe.

The best we can do is simulate our reactions and plan every scenario we can think through, so the "first time" shock doesn't defeat us before we ever begin. This includes those who wish to seek out the closest exit. Those too could freeze with fear at the first sounds of gunfire. We shouldn't assume we know how it will play out, but we should at least have a decision made beforehand.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Ahhh, but my advantage is I’ve “been there” before, and know what I can do. After the first time it gets easier.
I was willing to die for my comrades, in fact still am 50 years later, but strangers? No.

A long time ago, as a newbie my first week in country, a firefight broke out outside our perimeter between one of our ambush teams and the enemy. I remember looking at an “old timer” and asking if we were going to help. I’ll never forget his answer, never. “Better them than us.”


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## NewRiverGeorge (Jan 2, 2018)

Mr Miyagi has it right, the best block is to not be there...


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

To be clear, I'm not making any claim against anyone's past.
But past does not prove future. We are all very different people now than who we were decades ago. For everyone's sake, I hope we all do have full clarity of mind and faculties if the time ever comes, and can execute our own plan.
But until it happens, we just can't know.


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