# Managing your forest.



## Mr.PineTree (Dec 3, 2012)

When prepping comes to mind most forget about our precious trees, its a resource that should take a note of consideration. Just as food, water and other resources our forest need to be used with conservation in mind, yes its a renewable resource although its a rather long process as we all know. 

What kind of rotation is good for you? 
How much wood is needed for fuel?
How much wood is needed for shelter or building material?
Should you pick one neck of the woods to gather wood for fuel or shelter? 
What stands of trees attract game and wildlife? 

There are literally hundreds of questions that could be asked, although only one question needs be asked, how well do you know your forest? 

It would be awesome to start a general conversation on the subject and I would be more than glad to answer any questions if possible. Lets spread the word to save our forest.

"The vast possibilities of our great future will become realities only if we make ourselves responsible for that future". Gifford Pinchot.


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## WoadWarrior (Oct 10, 2012)

Sorry... I can't see my forest for the trees. 

A better question: How many of your semi-prepared wannabe prepper neighbors are going to head to your woods when SHTF and how much of your forest will they destroy before you can shoot them all?


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## survival (Sep 26, 2011)

I have a few questions if you don't mind?

1. How long would chopped wood last in normal climate uncovered? Would it last longer if it was just cut into 2 foot logs, but not chopped?
2. What type of trees would be good to block out certain things (Sound, Visual) to provide a safe haven for a retreat?
3. How much chopped wood would you consider (Ricks) having if you wanted to survive a full winter heating a 2000 square foot cabin?
4. Speaking of cabins, what would you consider being the best outside protectant from elements?

Welcome to the forum! Oh, and "I think that I shall never see, A poem as lovely as a tree. A tree whose hungry mouth is prest, against the earth's sweet flowing breast. A tree that looks at God all day, and lifts her leafy arms to pray. A tree that may in Summer wear, a nest of robins in her hair. Upon whose bosom snow has lain, who intimately lives with rain. Poems are made by fools like me, but only God can make a Tree. ~Joyce Kilmer

BTW, are you a forester?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Hybrid popular. They grow 40 feet in 5 years when started from root stock if you do a bit of clipping they grow taller quicker and more like other trees. When you cut them they are often good to burn as is no real slitting to do.
They may not burn a long as oak but makes managing a wood supply easy and save a lot of work.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Oak is good, be it red, white, black or pin. Cut out the weak, let the strong grow


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## WoadWarrior (Oct 10, 2012)

AquaHull said:


> Cut out the weak, let the strong grow


I wish we could do that with people too. SIGH!


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

WoadWarrior said:


> I wish we could do that with people too. SIGH!


 Some if them will be thinned out


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## Mr.PineTree (Dec 3, 2012)

Damage or destruction is a definite consideration and cause for concern. A forest can offer tons of protection not only from the unwanted world but also unwanted intruders, I like to think of it as a buffer. To WoadWarrior, what kind of damage are you thinking of? Several pine forest (especially longleaf pine/Pinus Palustris) are fired adapted, if someone were to set ablaze to said woods it would almost be an unintended act of kindness. This isint true of many other tree species though, although some trees have a higher resistance to high temperatures than others. Many Native American tribes actually set fire to many of their forest because they saw the correlation between fire and healthy regeneration.


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## Mr.PineTree (Dec 3, 2012)

To survival, let me awnser your questions to the best of my ability. let me start with the forester question, no I'm not. In NC you have to have at least a 4 year degree to legally call yourself a forester and that I do not have, although I am currently working towards that goal, I will have my two year degree in just one more semester, then off to Oregon to get that bachelors and become a certified Forester and arborist. 

1. I really don't want to be that guy who is really vague in everything but a lot does depend on what part of the world you reside. Here in the coastal plains where we get average rain fall with tons of humidity we can assume ( I hate that word) the process of decomposition would be accelerated. If a proper building is made to store your fire wood perhaps like an open sided shed with the wood raised off the ground and kept dry it could keep for 10-20 years if never touched this also depends of species and how well everything is covered. Logs are going to keep much longer than split wood for a few reasons, split wood has more surface area which allows more moister or even pest and insects to get inside. I recommend to keep logs and split as needed.
2. Again this also depends on your location, and what you consider to be aesthetic or practical. Soil types and site index are a few other things to consider, even though there may be a desired species to be planted it may not like the location or the soil type and never grow to desired DBH (diameter at breast height) or size. With a little info I can make better recommendations based on region and altitude. Although here ceders come to mind, the juniper tree has a pretty good growth rate and fills out rather nice making a nice audio/visual screen from the undesired. 
3. I would start with at least a cord of wood 4'x4'x8' is the dimensions which is 1536 board feet, that should be a good basis to build on. Depending on how cold it is and your threshold of cold temperatures, heavy use would go about 3 weeks or so but with rationing I reckon it could be pushed to 4-5 weeks. This should help you plan out how much fuel its going to take to make it through a winter. Here I could very easily get away with a cord of wood considering we uselessly have very mild winters. 
4. Perhaps this is only opinion but I would go with a resinous tree, something with lots of sap. Soft wood can be a confusing word it doesn't necessarily mean the wood is less dense than another. Log cabins can be built with a variety of tree species and no one is necessarily better than another. Several factors, including environmental conditions, structural requirements, homeowner preference, availability and cost of course, often combine to create a shortlist of most commonly used species. Douglas fir, engelmann spruce, hemlock, larch, lodgepole pine, ponderosa pine and western red cedar. I think pine would be the best choice, they tend to have more commercial logs and tend to be straighter and more uniform which would make it easier to stack. Not to mention a few products you can obtain just from cutting pine even stuff to help build said cabin.

"The vast possibilities of our great future will become realities only if we make ourselves responsible for that future". Gifford Pinchot.


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## WoadWarrior (Oct 10, 2012)

Mr.PineTree said:


> To WoadWarrior, what kind of damage are you thinking of?


I was thinking more in line with.... make a ton of noise and scare off game I need to survive... indescriminately cut down trees for firewood and leave debris everywhere... and possibly create unnecessary erosion... trample all of the edible plants.... leave trash all over... piss in or put trash in my drinking water stream. A forest may survive a forest fire but that sort of chases me and all of my game away as well.


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## Mr.PineTree (Dec 3, 2012)

AquaHull said:


> Oak is good, be it red, white, black or pin. Cut out the weak, let the strong grow


Basic silviculture, eliminate competition and undesired species allows desired species to grow and improve site index. I would recommend a overall lite thinning to remove undesired species and start with those for fuel and heat. Although some consideration is to be taken, its always better to have a stand of mixed species, mono-cultures rarely do well without intense management, just think about your lawn. Side thought here, did you know that here in the pine forest of the Green Swamp of NC is considered to be one of the most ecologically diverse places in the world even more so than the rainforest of south America? I should say this could be slightly misleading, this is only true in a meter by meter area, over a much, much larger scale the rainforest is more diverse.


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## survival (Sep 26, 2011)

Mr. Pine Tree, Awesome! Thank you for that info. I have been assuming a log would be better kept than split, but wanted to hear an expert on the subject. My sister just recently went to do her internship at NC in forestry and is now back in Kentucky. My father, who is way up in the Office of Surface Mining arena has always pushed me in this direction as well. I can't seem to get squat out of questions from him though. We all own log cabins and one of the biggest issues that I'm facing right now is what to seal the outter logs with. I've bought some stuff from Permachink which is supposed to prevent rot, mildew, insects etc. That will be my summer project on the application of a protectant like this described. They also sell a "fire retardant" chemical that you can apply to the exterior logs, which in a SHTF situation, would be very beneficial. I'm still thinking about that project though.

In regards to cover of protection for my area, I'm leaning towards keeping trees, while others might disagree with a good barrier to be gone so they can see someone coming, I consider the lesser of two evils.


I can use the trees for fuel in the winter.
I can string tons of barb wire throughout the entrances of my forest, which will slow down any type of tresspassers.
Providing a habitat for wildlife such as squirels, deer, birds, turkey etc.
Trees would be for range detection (200 yards to the maple on the South corner).
Deadfalls traps for game.
Providing cover of my retreat.
Providing a means to put up a HF antenna in the treetops.
Furniture can be made with the wood.
Logs used for smoking food can be accomplished.
Makeshift arrows and bows.
Forests grow wonderful mushrooms.
Pulp for toliet paper, might be complex, but could be done.
You can eat bark.

So yes, I'll keep my trees for now. The only benefit I see of not keeping them around is for seeing someone coming, which #2 can at least slow them down. If you cut the trees, then you'll still need someone on watch to see them coming, so stringing up barb wire in different directions, setting traps and noise makers might help.


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## Mr.PineTree (Dec 3, 2012)

Established lines and boundaries should be implemented, as for myself I'm going to be in the woods everyday checking for tracks and evidence of unwanted things or persons. A larger area would be difficult to patrol and maintain, perhaps a system of quadrants could be used and areas designated to certain individuals. As far as water goes I can't really think of many places where the water is clean enough to drink straight from the source and we all know boiling is recommended for at least 30 mins. Certain animals are attracted to certain areas because of herbaceous plants and tree species, some birds only nest in specific tree species and will only leave if their home is destroyed. What I'm getting at is if you have a healthy stand of trees the animals are going to come back if scared off because they much like us know how to take advantage of good resources. I know a few people that manage their land only to attract desired species of game, and is actually very successful in attracting what they want. Another advantage of fire is the clearing effect, although I have seen many a deer here in our procosson forest which are 'extremely' thick and dense they do prefer a slightly more open environment. Prescribed fires are very common here and are geared towards regenerating forest land and bring in desired game animals. As for people taking whats yours you just gotta catch em in the act and shot as needed.


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## survival (Sep 26, 2011)

The log bin with a total of 4 metal fence posts. I'm going to keep them as "logs" and not split them like you mentioned. less work right now. I have one finished, will work on 3 more ricks.


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## survival (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't know if you can see these that good (camera phone), but could anyone identify this type of pine? Its very long and slender. I'm in SE Kentucky area if you need that to id. I've been told its a western pine?


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## Mr.PineTree (Dec 3, 2012)

Although you may not be able to see people coming those people are going to have a hard time to see you, perhaps they'll stumble upon you and then you'll have the advantage. I would say the benefits of a forest outweigh the sight advantage of an open plain. Fuel, food, forest products and materials, not to mention improved air and water quality, wind breaks which help prevent soil erosion, promote a healthy ecosystem and attract game or desired species of animals. I know I'm going to have more traps, snares, dead falls and pits than anybody should ever be comfortable with, anyone would be hard pressed to make it through my labyrinth. The list you provided is pretty impressive although to me it could be an endless list of pros and I would be hard pressed to argue as to why you should not have adequate protection from our forest. Forest have protected man for thousands of years and I'm sure it can do the same for many more.

"The vast possibilities of our great future will become realities only if we make ourselves responsible for that future". Gifford Pinchot.


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## Mr.PineTree (Dec 3, 2012)

how many needles per fascicle? If you get a close shot of the leafs and the bark I can id it. although it does appear to be a western pine given the region.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

One of Hybrid Popular stands trees are 4-6 years old well spaced to allow the area to be use for sheep /goats if we want. It is also used as a shooting range. Mixed in are some White Oaks, Maple and Ash for long term use. The Hybrids help to protect the other Hard woods when they are smaller.
Advantages are many you can plant the closer to where you will need the wood. Less hauling. Depending on how you manage yours you can cut them at a time when darn little splitting will be needed again saves time and energy less wear on tools.
If you start yours from root stock first year they need water once they root in good they are very hardy.
The can be own from small cuttings. We treat then like any crop grow them harvest replace.
The edge of the creek is also lined with some This is picture was taken today so season change is well underway. Area between the creek and this stand is marsh grass for feed and bedding. Also a good home for small game.
The deer will at times stand there and watch you make wood so wild life is not an issue they will seek up cover ,food and water Bit of history that are was once all big Oar and elm with a few ash. Long before my day. It was cleared in the 30-40's the wood was used to build barns and for heat it was the pasture land for many years. It sure helps when you know some of the history of the land.


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## MountainMan (Apr 4, 2012)

Mr.PineTree and I have a different plan than most of you. We are setting up an ecovillage/Prepper community, so our neighbors won't be a problem as they won't exist. Our place will be nestled deep in the woods with little to no chance of being stumbled upon even in a SHTF scenario. Unlike other ecovillages, we hope to be completely self sufficient soon after our 2nd or 3rd year so there shouldn't be a problem with people knowing where we are.

That being said, I have extensive training with animals so even if we were stumbled upon they would first have to deal with our alarm system, and second with our 4 legged security. Our ecovillage will provide a wonderful community service before SHTF by educating the public on ecological matters, but that ecovillage will quickly turn into a well fortified prepper station when things go bad.

@SURVIVAL, Told 'ya he was smart didn't I? lol.


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## MountainMan (Apr 4, 2012)

survival said:


> The log bin with a total of 4 metal fence posts. I'm going to keep them as "logs" and not split them like you mentioned. less work right now. I have one finished, will work on 3 more ricks.
> 
> View attachment 796


Don't forget to separate your ricks. You don't want a natural disaster taking all your wood out at once. Make it hard on mother nature and wood thieves by spreading them out around your property.


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## MountainMan (Apr 4, 2012)

LOL. Survival, Just saw your signature. Is that a real Leon quote? Sounds about right...


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## survival (Sep 26, 2011)

Good idea on spacing them out, didn't think about that. You sure do have a smart one within your group! And yes, thats the famous Leon quote for ya. I try to rotate them when I see them.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Don't forget to plant a few fruit trees that do well in your area.. Example the old world wolf river variety of apple is right at home in our climate and it grow large hearty apples prefect for baking and canning.
Cherry are another one once established the grow pretty well .
Plant some Hickory nuts but you must plan more than one to produce Hickory nuts.


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## MountainMan (Apr 4, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Don't forget to plant a few fruit trees that do well in your area.. Example the old world wolf river variety of apple is right at home in our climate and it grow large hearty apples prefect for baking and canning.
> Cherry are another one once established the grow pretty well .
> Plant some Hickory nuts but you must plan more than one to produce Hickory nuts.


Fruit trees are always a great idea. Anything that grows well in your area. Fruit trees tend to be a more stable crop and take much less hands on effort.

If you're in a colder climate that doesn't support tropical fruits, pine needle tea is a great way to get your vitamin C.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

MountainMan said:


> Fruit trees are always a great idea. Anything that grows well in your area. Fruit trees tend to be a more stable crop and take much less hands on effort.
> 
> If you're in a colder climate that doesn't support tropical fruits, pine needle tea is a great way to get your vitamin C.


 Even in Wisconsin many Apples do very well we have some here that have been grown from the ones planted in the 1800's
I am sure Wild life such as Deer will be thinned out quickly planting Apple trees in your tree stands give them food they want and may help to keep them near by


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

We can! Just don't tell no one!!! They won't be missed!


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## WoadWarrior (Oct 10, 2012)

Yes... I'm sort of jacking the thread... but since you talk about adding fruit trees to attract wildlife, shouldn't we explore other things we can do to make the forest more game friendly?

1) Add undergrowth or branch piles so they have places to hide and feel secure
2) And a variety of wild foods that support wildlife year round (so you can hunt year round)
3) Ensure the variety of food attracts a wider variety of wildlife
4) Drop in an occasional salt lick or two 
5) Try to expand the natural water sources (i.e., unclog streams and clean out the scum from ponds), clean out low lying potential pond areas to hold water. Add "water holding" plants that animals love to eat.
6) Add in permanent hunting stands or blinds so the animals get used to them being there year round
7) Pre-build a cache and stock it with supplies you may need but can't carry in volume when bugging out (extra ammo, knives, plastic, etc...) If big enough, it can also serve as a hiding place for your meat... or you... in case someone hears you and comes looking.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

WoadWarrior all ready been done. Started down that path years ago. Another reason why I am all ready at My BOL it will be just like home cause it is. Our main task now is making sure we defend it.
Pits they are just large enough to drop into standing up have a cover

Molon labe


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## MountainMan (Apr 4, 2012)

WoadWarrior said:


> Yes... I'm sort of jacking the thread... but since you talk about adding fruit trees to attract wildlife, shouldn't we explore other things we can do to make the forest more game friendly?
> 
> 1) Add undergrowth or branch piles so they have places to hide and feel secure
> 2) And a variety of wild foods that support wildlife year round (so you can hunt year round)
> ...


Much of that is forest management stuff that Mr.PineTree and I were talking about just last night. I love this thread.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Along edges where they get sun Wild raspberry they are once again free food and part of the natural landscape here. Just have been cut out over the years.
Also attracts birds.
We still have wild hemp from the war around here not the smoking kind but good fiber.
Letting some down oak stay eatable mush rooms not much food value but can wake up a boring meal.
Tools your chain saw will only last so long.
Acquired some mint condition two person saws axes from the 1920 the stuff that cleared this land the first time. More coming.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

This belongs in Managing your forest because the forest is a huge resource. You need to cut trees . It will be fuel and build material. The land I own has been in family a long time. we know the history back to the 1800's.
What is new planting was once wood land . It was cleared as pasture and to provide wood of all uses. They survived here.
I gave up counting on normal fuels SHTF that stuff will be gone quickly and to hard to acquired. chain saw will be fueled and ready but will quickly be useless. 
Last night we scored some great tools. Two more 6 foot two person saws. They are the same saws that cleared this land the first time that build the log cabin. They are as good today as they were then ready to go to work.
Along with them two more axes from the same time. Steel that will out last a few more generations. A human power drill press . To be dropped off soon a plow that was pulled by a horse on this very land. I got it back.
If it never hits the fan if we got this all wrong and the greatness of man wins out. So what we got some cool wood land back we recovered a lot of tools from our past. We sure have had an interesting time researching how all this was done before we were here.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Next Spring this area becomes a grove of hybrid popular a bout 500 will go in there along with a few American ELM and some White oak








The area is traced by a small creek drought year we had water is low









Other clean up cleaned out 70 years of line fences field stone piles erosion. It has been a lot of work but well worth it.


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## MountainMan (Apr 4, 2012)

Cutting down trees isn't just a must for use as resources but also to keep up with the needs of the environment. Newer trees clean the air much more efficiently than older growth trees do.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

MountainMan said:


> Cutting down trees isn't just a must for use as resources but also to keep up with the needs of the environment. Newer trees clean the air much more efficiently than older growth trees do.


 The need has come to return some of this land to where it was when first settled. Nothing wrong with what was done it severed a purpose . Now it will come back around full circle. First faster growing trees will be planted in areas along with slower growing hard woods. The faster trees will protect the younger slow ones The faster growing trees will provided needed resources during the generation it takes to bring back hard woods. The Elms were killed off by Dutch elm a long time ago , the American Elm is a replacement that seems to be standing up to it.. Ash is in danger from the Ash bore, we have not seen it here yet but it is in the state. Until we do not touching the Ash in hopes of saving them. The ditches are peppered with wood duck shelters it is a prefect home for them.
This project will go on long after I am gone.


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## AsteroidX (Dec 11, 2012)

Thread Hijacking...Apples and Wildlife definitely works. I have a full herd. Probably 12 eating my dropped apples as I type this. If your near deer apples are cool. I think they let them ferment then eat them. Heh.

On topic... The govrnment used to give away redwood trees. Why they no do this anymore.


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## Alaska (Nov 28, 2012)

Same could be said for game.

If the Law was not around and city folks hit the country, would you try and enforce the game laws in order to prevent a complete over use of resource's?


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## MountainMan (Apr 4, 2012)

Alaska said:


> Same could be said for game.
> 
> If the Law was not around and city folks hit the country, would you try and enforce the game laws in order to prevent a complete over use of resource's?


lol. At that point I think I'd implement a "stay out of shot range" policy.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

I know on my property I have been slowly but surely removing all of the trees that dont provide a mast or fruit crop for the most part. I have planted a lot of fruit trees as well on my property making sure I get a good mix of early, mid and late season producing varities to maximize the availability of fruit. I have also planted a lot of Black Berries as these not only provide some fruit they also are pretty conducive to the Cottontail population as well as Quail. Now I just need to figure out something feasable for a Duck Magnent since a good bit of my property is shore front on a lake. We have year round populations of Mallards, Coots and now Canadian Geese are starting to reside in good numbers. Quiet a few Woodies in the area and we have tons of Blue and Green Wing Teal in Septimber/October.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

MountainMan said:


> lol. At that point I think I'd implement a "stay out of shot range" policy.


 The line will be a lot farther back than shot gun range


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## MountainMan (Apr 4, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> The line will be a lot farther back than shot gun range


Agreed. Just didn't sound funny with booby trap range.


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## fedorthedog (Feb 28, 2012)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> I know on my property I have been slowly but surely removing all of the trees that dont provide a mast or fruit crop for the most part. I have planted a lot of fruit trees as well on my property making sure I get a good mix of early, mid and late season producing varities to maximize the availability of fruit. I have also planted a lot of Black Berries as these not only provide some fruit they also are pretty conducive to the Cottontail population as well as Quail. Now I just need to figure out something feasable for a Duck Magnent since a good bit of my property is shore front on a lake. We have year round populations of Mallards, Coots and now Canadian Geese are starting to reside in good numbers. Quiet a few Woodies in the area and we have tons of Blue and Green Wing Teal in Septimber/October.


Build some nesting hutches, The are made with field fence wire rolled and tied then lines with straw. A second wire hoop holds the straw in place.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Personally I think birch is "the tree" 
1. It is a great tinder source
2. The tree is edible
3. It makes birch syrup
4. Birch bark has tons of uses.

Other good trees -- maple - you can eat the seed pods too.
Walnut 0 you can eat the nuts 

Mast trees such as oak, chestnut

berry trees -- Ive grown to like mountain ash, 

fruit trees - apple, cherry


I also like pine for pine nuts, one of the best sources for natural steroids going.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

We have 44 acres at our home. about 20 of that is hard wood forest. I had the woods logged in 2004, 92 large trees were taken off. We have cut up most of the tops in the first five years. Any that were not cut for fire wood are now rotted into dirt.

We had a normal wood furnace years ago that was not vary efficient. It took 6 and a half to seven full cord of wood to heat our 1768 Sq Ft Ranch Style house for almost seven months of the year.

We now have a highly efficient PSE wood furnace. It takes four full cord of wood to heat our house through the winter. The difference in wood consumption is stunning.

Using four cord of wood, we can heat our house off of a small percentage of the dead and knocked over trees from our woods each year. We will likely never run dry in our 20 acres. My mom and dad had 8.9 acres with approx. 5 wooded acres when I was a kid. We always had enough wood off that small plot. My father was very frugal cutting up every downed tree.

Red oak will last 5 to 7 years cut up, and then becomes very dry rotted powdery and full of bugs. Hard Elm will Last close to the same. Maple and Choke Cherry seriously degrade after three years, even when kept dry, it will turn chalky and loose it's heat production ability.

We make a wood rack out of pallets, to keep the wood off the ground and then cover it with a tarp, during the dry spell in early September that always occurs here, after it has sat for a while we throw a lock down top bug spray under the palett to kill all of the bugs, so they do not polute your wood pile.


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