# Propaganda: retirement savings push



## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Maybe I'm sensitive to this since I work in the trade. But it seems like each year there is a massive push to get the 401k, IRA, ROTH, etc going. It's not just the brokerage firms but our govt too. Mind you I have been helping clients establish 401ks for their businesses over a decade. I always recommend people use IRAs and in particular the ROTH. But I'm wondering if it's not all just propaganda. 

After all they want you to work hard and save just so they can take it for those who don't.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

stowlin said:


> Maybe I'm sensitive to this since I work in the trade. But it seems like each year there is a massive push to get the 401k, IRA, ROTH, etc going. It's not just the brokerage firms but our govt too. Mind you I have been helping clients establish 401ks for their businesses over a decade. I always recommend people use IRAs and in particular the ROTH. But I'm wondering if it's not all just propaganda.
> 
> After all they want you to work hard and save just so they can take it for those who don't.


Good question, now my turn to ask a couple questions to someone employed in the "money" game.

Is the US currency likely to fail sometime in the near future?
If so,what is the likelihood your 401k/IRA/Roth is still at your disposal?


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

Phasing out SS which was never meant to be retirement.

*Rancher*


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

azrancher said:


> Phasing out SS which was never meant to be retirement.
> 
> *Rancher*


^^^^:Yikes:


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

azrancher said:


> Phasing out SS which was never meant to be retirement.
> 
> *Rancher*


They are more than welcome to phase it out after I get mine that I paid into.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I could see the clowns in DC confiscating retirement accounts to fund a bankrupt social security program.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Camel923 said:


> I could see the clowns in DC confiscating retirement accounts to fund a bankrupt social security program.


Don't forget they need to fund the illegals too.


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

I am now drawing some every month from my Roth, and when I do my taxes they always try to tell me I have to pay income tax on it, my broker always withholds taxes from it and I have to remind him that under contract, it's not taxable.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Well if Army retirement, Rail road, saving , investment all get taken away. Plan B and good luck it is going to get nasty.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Camel923 said:


> I could see the clowns in DC confiscating retirement accounts to fund a bankrupt social security program.


 Obama had suggested that then give you 2% interest on what they took. You did not earn that money.


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

The social security system wouldn't be broke if the democrats wouldn't have robbbed it back in the 60s


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

If I recall correctly the left wanted to cap what you could put into retirement savings and then they wanted to tax them. That's still not off the table yet.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Grand parents learned their lesson decades ago not to trust banks or anyone else with anything of value. History just keeps repeating itself.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

My grandfather told my dad SS was scam he was right, my father told me SS was scam he was right. I listened well.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

stowlin said:


> Maybe I'm sensitive to this since I work in the trade. But it seems like each year there is a massive push to get the 401k, IRA, ROTH, etc going. It's not just the brokerage firms but our govt too. Mind you I have been helping clients establish 401ks for their businesses over a decade. I always recommend people use IRAs and in particular the ROTH. But I'm wondering if it's not all just propaganda.
> 
> After all they want you to work hard and save just so they can take it for those who don't.


IRA's 401K's, etc... are all just a huge batch of money awaiting the feds to confiscate and use once the SHTF as scheduled. To use to build the USA into the USSA.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> Don't forget they need to fund the illegals too.


I wish the illegals would use my number to help me get to my 40 quarters...
*
Rancher*


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

I quit putting into 401K a couple years ago. I put that money into bills with interest.
I already net a good bit through Navy retirment..
If SS is still bere when I can collect, great. If not, oh well.


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

rstanek said:


> The social security system wouldn't be broke if the democrats wouldn't have robbbed it back in the 60s


Last time I heard reports on that, they had "borrowed" 2 to 3 Trillion from SS and SS has IOU's to back it up. It wouldnt be broke today if they would pay back what they "borrowed"


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## Economic Survivalist (Dec 21, 2016)

stowlin said:


> Maybe I'm sensitive to this since I work in the trade. But it seems like each year there is a massive push to get the 401k, IRA, ROTH, etc going. It's not just the brokerage firms but our govt too. Mind you I have been helping clients establish 401ks for their businesses over a decade. I always recommend people use IRAs and in particular the ROTH. But I'm wondering if it's not all just propaganda.
> 
> After all they want you to work hard and save just so they can take it for those who don't.


I hope I don't step on anyone's toes here, but I quit contributing to my ROTH after I decided that I should be more in the know about my own freakin' retirement investments and discovered that government retirement programs are just about the worst option for retirement planning in almost every way. The trouble with society is that nobody is taught otherwise. We just blindly give our money to a money manager and expect them to have our best interests at heart. I believe that there are great advisers out there but few and far between. The average adviser is not "in the know" so you really can't blame them either.

It all started for me when my adviser told me that I should be in Johnson & Johnson. When I ask him why, he told me "Because there awesome." I started reviewing my statements and doing the math myself and my accounts were not even keeping up with inflation. When I discovered that I was planning to retire broke, I closed my account and started reading. I found that while the ROTH is the only decent option for those who just don't want to think about and don't really know any better. Reality is they are just planning for failure because they have no real plan. While I think there is a conspiracy in the fact that the media will push certain companies and mutual funds along with the government pushing retirement savings based on the amount of money that is made on interest and fees, I decided not to focus too much on this. I decided what I needed to do about it. How I was going to protect my family and retire comfortably while I was young enough and still had time to do so.

I decided that if I was going to build wealth for retirement I would need to listen to people wealthier than I. I don't take weight loss advice from fat people, I sure as hell was not going to take financial advice from people as broke as I am. At least not anymore. I studied stocks and trading, oil and gas, precious metals, and my favorite...real estate. If you read the tax code you can find some of the best investments are encouraged by our government. ie...there are great tax benefits for investing in oil and gas production, job creation (buisness) and housing (real estate). Any of these investments destroy any government savings account to pieces just for the tax benefits. (tangent..I find it interesting that our last administration was so "against" oil yet there are still phenomenal tax benefits for investments in oil and gas production.) The problem is the general population is taught virtually nothing about money. (which I don't think is coincidental) Any education about things of this matter must be self taught or mentored from one person to another.

Some books I would recommend are "401Kaos" by: Andy Tanner "Tax Free Wealth" by: Tom Wheelwright
I really encourage people to be active in there retirement planning. Knowledge is power and the government cannot take it from you.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I put a lot of money into a 401(k) beginning the day that I was "allowed" to do so. Being a freakin' grown assed man and having to be "allowed" to put my own hard earned money into an account should have been my first indicator that something was amiss.

Good Lord Willing, I accumulated a mass of money. But, alas, I could not use that money because I was NOT FREAKIN' "ALLOWED". WTF?

So, one day I started putting the money that I was going to put in the 401(k) or IRA and bought some land, then built a house. Today, I owe nothing on the land and the house. We call it Slippy Lodge.

Good move or bad move? 

Seems like an OK move to me?!?!?!

Do away with the entire tax code and EVERYONE pays 10%. EVERYONE. And give me back 100% of everything I paid into Social Security.

[email protected]%K the entire tax system.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Economic Survivalist said:


> I hope I don't step on anyone's toes here, but I quit contributing to my ROTH after I decided that I should be more in the know about my own freakin' retirement investments and discovered that government retirement programs are just about the worst option for retirement planning in almost every way. The trouble with society is that nobody is taught otherwise. We just blindly give our money to a money manager and expect them to have our best interests at heart. I believe that there are great advisers out there but few and far between. The average adviser is not "in the know" so you really can't blame them either.
> 
> It all started for me when my adviser told me that I should be in Johnson & Johnson. When I ask him why, he told me "Because there awesome." I started reviewing my statements and doing the math myself and my accounts were not even keeping up with inflation. When I discovered that I was planning to retire broke, I closed my account and started reading. I found that while the ROTH is the only decent option for those who just don't want to think about and don't really know any better. Reality is they are just planning for failure because they have no real plan. While I think there is a conspiracy in the fact that the media will push certain companies and mutual funds along with the government pushing retirement savings based on the amount of money that is made on interest and fees, I decided not to focus too much on this. I decided what I needed to do about it. How I was going to protect my family and retire comfortably while I was young enough and still had time to do so.
> 
> ...


Seems kinda funny how every money manager who is making YOU money with YO money, is always driving a nicer car than YOU and taking nicer vacations than YOU, huh?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

I am not an investment adviser. I speak only for my house. I do not invest in individual stocks. That is a different game played most often by insiders. I have always believed in mutual funds that target sectors I feel comfortable with. Spread out from low risk to high and moved to less risk as We aged. The plan has worked. I did not triple my money over night. But over the years made a fair return and never lost a dime of real money in all them crashes. Yes the fund value dropped at times but by riding it out they cam back and made more.
I have my oldest grand daughters college money in Midcap funds it has done very well the last two years and surged big time over Trump. The high risk stuff has lagged . Smart people look for security and return IMO.
There are no 100% things in life except change and death. You make your plan ,work your plan adjust as time goes by. In the end if All SHTF. There is not a dam thing you can do to change that. Just be prepared to take other action if it does. Not doing anything because you are worried An Obama may take it is foolish IMO.
I did not invest in guns, they are more an insurance plan. My grandfather said no madder what they tell you insurance is not really an investment. It is a protection for a length of time and reason both are limited.


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## Economic Survivalist (Dec 21, 2016)

Smitty901 said:


> I am not an investment adviser. I speak only for my house. I do not invest in individual stocks. That is a different game played most often by insiders. I have always believed in mutual funds that target sectors I feel comfortable with. Spread out from low risk to high and moved to less risk as We aged. The plan has worked. I did not triple my money over night. But over the years made a fair return and never lost a dime of real money in all them crashes. Yes the fund value dropped at times but by riding it out they cam back and made more.
> I have my oldest grand daughters college money in Midcap funds it has done very well the last two years and surged big time over Trump. The high risk stuff has lagged . Smart people look for security and return IMO.
> There are no 100% things in life except change and death. You make your plan ,work your plan adjust as time goes by. In the end if All SHTF. There is not a dam thing you can do to change that. Just be prepared to take other action if it does. Not doing anything because you are worried An Obama may take it is foolish IMO.
> I did not invest in guns, they are more an insurance plan. My grandfather said no madder what they tell you insurance is not really an investment. It is a protection for a length of time and reason both are limited.


I am glad to hear your investments are doing "fair." I personally would like to exceed fair and I don't want to buy, hold, and pray. Imagine you are getting ready to retire and you were poised to turn 64 1/2 yrs in 08-09. History shows the market falls out the window but climbs like your going up stairs. In other words it crashes in 2 yrs and recovers in 10. I do not want to trust my retirement based on what the market happens to be doing when I am getting ready to retire. I don't want to hit retirement age during a recession and have half the nest egg I was planning for. Its too much out of my control. I am not saying I want to be super wealthy but if there are wealthy people in this world who get richer when the markets going up or when the markets are going down, then I want to know what they are doing. If they can do it, then I can to.

I definitely agree, to do nothing is foolish. The majority of people don't know what a midcap fund means let alone the fact that with a little education and effort one can pull there investment and sit in cash and lose nothing during volatile times if properly structured. Don't even get me started with selling short and were only talking about one asset class. Everyone has different needs and desires, find what works best for you. Just don't be like I was, depositing money into something I had no idea about. My situation was like blind leading the blind. I got educated and continue to educate myself and my families future will be much brighter for it.


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## Notold63 (Sep 18, 2016)

A couple of years ago I heard a dem consultant bemoaning the fact that there was trillions of dollars in 401k plans, and if they could just get their hands on that money ..... What I see happening is if you have a separate retirement income the government will reduce your social security by the amount that you have coming in from other sources.


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## LONE WOLF (Dec 12, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> They are more than welcome to phase it out after I get mine that I paid into.


I'm afraid we are going to be the losers of this big pyramid scheme!


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Economic Survivalist said:


> I am glad to hear your investments are doing "fair." I personally would like to exceed fair and I don't want to buy, hold, and pray. Imagine you are getting ready to retire and you were poised to turn 64 1/2 yrs in 08-09. History shows the market falls out the window but climbs like your going up stairs. In other words it crashes in 2 yrs and recovers in 10. I do not want to trust my retirement based on what the market happens to be doing when I am getting ready to retire. I don't want to hit retirement age during a recession and have half the nest egg I was planning for. Its too much out of my control. I am not saying I want to be super wealthy but if there are wealthy people in this world who get richer when the markets going up or when the markets are going down, then I want to know what they are doing. If they can do it, then I can to.
> 
> I definitely agree, to do nothing is foolish. The majority of people don't know what a midcap fund means let alone the fact that with a little education and effort one can pull there investment and sit in cash and lose nothing during volatile times if properly structured. Don't even get me started with selling short and were only talking about one asset class. Everyone has different needs and desires, find what works best for you. Just don't be like I was, depositing money into something I had no idea about. My situation was like blind leading the blind. I got educated and continue to educate myself and my families future will be much brighter for it.


 Good luck I have just retired for the second time. Our planned worked out just fine. I hope yours does also. I will leave my children with a nice nest egg and the grandchildren. When I check out. Until then I will ride and enjoy life .


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

Doc Holliday said:


> Last time I heard reports on that, they had "borrowed" 2 to 3 Trillion from SS and SS has IOU's to back it up. It wouldnt be broke today if they would pay back what they "borrowed"


Even if they paid it all back, it still doesn't solve the endemic issue w/ SS. Point blank, it's a Ponzi scheme. You also have the fact that there's less and less being paid in because of the crashing economy, and more and more pulling from it due to people living longer. That's an imbalance you just cannot come back from.

Remember, to DO NOT get paid back the money you PUT IN. that money disappears almost immediately to pay for current people pulling from the fund. Basically, each generation pays for the one (or two) before it. You're depending on your children and grandchildren to pay for YOUR SS. That's just how it works.

Like all socialist systems that depend on robbing Peter to pay Paul, it WILL fail. They always do. When you add greedy-ass politicians that refuse to exercise fiscal discipline as well, it's a 100% guarantee of failure.

Just my $0.02 worth.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Retirement and estate planning take on many forms. It changes depending on so many things. There is the plan for Wife and I both alive. One with me dead one with her dead. Then of course both of us gone. retirement accounts will out live us both, if you do it right they can be rolled over to your children and the money is protected.
How funds are paid out making sure that if one is gone the other is well cared for. Protecting assets for children and grandchildren. Making sure as much as possible you keep the state out of your affairs. Several times over our life we have updated things to reflect where we were. Just a couple months ago we finished moving everything around as planned for when I would stop working.
Many assets that you wish to transfer and protect must be done in defined time lines of the government can take a lot of it.
It is a lot easier if you do it as you go and update as things change. it also helps you with a much better picture of where you stand. Never to early to start. Our first plan took 1 long page. Now it is a 1 1/2 inch stack.
Plan as if things will always find away to work out and prepare for if the don't.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

There is a difference between a Ponzi scheme and SS. In the former no one prints money or compels its payment in the later both are true. SS will go into deficit not default. If that scares people they should wake up and look at Medicare it's been in deficit for a decade or more.



Egyas said:


> Even if they paid it all back, it still doesn't solve the endemic issue w/ SS. Point blank, it's a Ponzi scheme. You also have the fact that there's less and less being paid in because of the crashing economy, and more and more pulling from it due to people living longer. That's an imbalance you just cannot come back from.
> 
> Remember, to DO NOT get paid back the money you PUT IN. that money disappears almost immediately to pay for current people pulling from the fund. Basically, each generation pays for the one (or two) before it. You're depending on your children and grandchildren to pay for YOUR SS. That's just how it works.
> 
> ...


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> My grandfather told my dad SS was scam he was right, my father told me SS was scam he was right. I listened well.


It's really not a scam, it's a lottery, if you live long enough, you win. If you don't... well you won't care anyway.

*Rancher*


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

azrancher said:


> It's really not a scam, it's a lottery, if you live long enough, you win. If you don't... well you won't care anyway.
> 
> *Rancher*


 I got lucky I was able to avoid SS in my second profession. The numbers worked out much better.


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

azrancher said:


> It's really not a scam, it's a lottery, if you live long enough, you win. If you don't... well you won't care anyway.
> 
> *Rancher*


You MAY win. I'm in my mid-40's and personally I have *absolutely no faith* that SS will still be there when I retire, assuming TEOTWAWKI doesn't hit.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Egyas said:


> You MAY win. I'm in my mid-40's and personally I have *absolutely no faith* that SS will still be there when I retire, assuming TEOTWAWKI doesn't hit.


 No one should be depending on SS alone. Even if you get your money it will not be near enough. SS was meant to be a supplement not a retirement. It got sold as one by those seeking power.


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## 7052 (Jul 1, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> No one should be depending on SS alone. Even if you get your money it will not be near enough. SS was meant to be a supplement not a retirement. It got sold as one by those seeking power.


Agreed completely. Since I have no faith it will be there at all, I'm planning on *NOT* having it and doing without.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Egyas said:


> Agreed completely. Since I have no faith it will be there at all, I'm planning on *NOT* having it and doing without.


 Healthcare is what will do most in. When you look at what we have been paying both personal share and employer it running over $23,000 a year. Not many in retirement will have that kind of money for it. And Medicare does not come close to paying everything. The insurance you have to carry with it going higher all of the time.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Egyas said:


> You MAY win. I'm in my mid-40's and personally I have *absolutely no faith* that SS will still be there when I retire, assuming TEOTWAWKI doesn't hit.


My guess is it will be there, but it won't be what you expect it to be. First if you have income or wealth my guess is they will reduce your social security benefit so those who didn't both to save can have more (read Bernie Sanders goal of taxing those who make more and increase social security benefits to those with less than 16k annual income).

As brash as Trump is notice he didn't propose touching social security. No politician is going to win on cutting the social security benefit out for those who paid into it. Its just not going to happen. I'm 52 and suspect I'll get social security if I'm healthy I'll take it later and if not I'll take it as early as I can.


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

We will have another WW and it will reset everyone... SS and 401ks will not be worth anything anyways.. My 2 cents.


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## Jp4GA (Jan 21, 2016)

Our end game is to not expect anything from SS. Other investments do pose a risk of not paying out our being locked up due to bank/holder failings. We stay out of debt and plan to retire with paid off homes, cars etc... The money I should receive from my pension should be enough to pay the bills, but even a pension that is solid now could fail. Its scary to look at and think about. It would be so much easier if we could just keep everything buried in the back yard-- but that is not realistic either.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I have never thought of SS as a retirement fund, more of a supplement........beer money if you will. I have been paying SS all my life so I hope to have a few six packs when all said and done. :tango_face_wink:


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