# Why you should never give permission for a search



## Urinal Cake

5 Reasons You Should Never Agree to a Police Search (Even If You Have Nothing to Hide)
You should be prepared just in case police become suspicious of you.
By Scott Morgan / AlterNet November 25, 2014
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24 COMMENTS
Do you know what your rights are when a police officer asks to search you? If you're like most people I've met in my eight years working to educate the public on this topic, then you probably don't.

5 Reasons You Should Never Agree to a Police Search (Even If You Have Nothing to Hide) | Alternet


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## Prepadoodle

Unless they have a reasonable suspicion that I have committed a crime, am committing a crime, or am about to commit a crime, they have no right to search me, my car, my belongings, or my house. Just say no!

Then shut up.

Anything you say can and will be twisted, put into the worst possible light, and taken out of context in order for them to find some slim reason to arrest you. Even if you do remain silent and refuse a search, they may just make something up. If you're not recording your interactions with the police, it's your word against their's. Who do you think wins that "he said, she said" battle? Nothing you say can help you, but it can damn sure hurt you.


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## Denton

I do not consent to a search unless there is a warrant. Period. I never have a thing to hide, but I believe I owe that much to the founding fathers.


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## Medic33

cause your paranoid, and don't understand the laws, or you live in a twisted society that the cops are bad and the criminals are good


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## Denton

Medic33 said:


> cause your paranoid, and don't understand the laws, or you live in a twisted society that the cops are bad and the criminals are good


Huh? I'm paranoid?

Who are you? What do you want?

:21:


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## Medic33

yep lol


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## 6811

Ehhhh. Not really. If a cop wants to search you, believe me they will find a way. If you are hiding something illegal, sometimes it's better just to give verbal consent to search to police and just chalk it up as a loss so that you can walk out of it in court. But if a cop is good and he knows how to write a search and seizure warrant, you are doomed. Don't get me wrong, refusal of a search without a warrant means nothing other than you are simply exercising your 4a. If you don't have contraband and the cops don't have probable cause, by all means tell them to get a warrant


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## Denton

6811 said:


> Ehhhh. Not really. If a cop wants to search you, believe me they will find a way. If you are hiding something illegal, sometimes it's better just to give verbal consent to search to police and just chalk it up as a loss so that you can walk out of it in court. But if a cop is good and he knows how to write a search and seizure warrant, you are doomed. Don't get me wrong, refusal of a search without a warrant means nothing other than you are simply exercising your 4a. If you don't have contraband and the cops don't have probable cause, by all means tell them to get a warrant


No, no and no.

The cop doesn't write the warrant. If he finds a way, it had better be legal. If he finds illegal items, you are screwed either way. Might as well stand on your rights.


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## 6811

Denton said:


> No, no and no.
> 
> The cop doesn't write the warrant. If he finds a way, it had better be legal. If he finds illegal items, you are screwed either way. Might as well stand on your rights.


I know it sounds crazy right. But if you are about to get caught with a contraband. It will be best for you if the cops found them with just a consent search. You can easily win that in court. Judge ask you did you give the officer consent to search your car?. Yes your honor, wouldn't you? He has a gun, I'm scared of him. If he asked me to strip down to my briefs and run around in circles I would. He has a gun and I don't want to die. It's either I exercise my rights or die. There you go, just like that you are out of there. You get to walk.


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## Medic33

did that work for you 6811?


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## Medic33

I think dropping 5 grand on the judges table in a back room private meeting works just as well.
unless you get judge ball buster-then your screwed.
best just not be doing anything to warrant a search.


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## tango

Police want to search you and your vehicle so they can find something/anything to charge you with, or to confiscate something for revenue!
They are tax collectors for the city/ county/ state.


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## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> Ehhhh. Not really. If a cop wants to search you, believe me they will find a way.


BS.. they may FIND a way but I would rather that and then defend it then give them permission... finding it and being able to use IT in court are two different things...

I am very law abiding... but I am not going to allow them to take MY TIME... NO SIR - you want to search - get a warrant or do it illegally


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## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> You can easily win that in court. Judge ask you did you give the officer consent to search your car?. Yes your honor, wouldn't you? He has a gun, I'm scared of him.


has not worked, will not work,...


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## SARGE7402

You realize that not all searches require a warrant? Such as plain view. Or chasing a person that has just committed a crime in their presence - called hot pursuit (just try stopping a cop from entering your house if that truly is the case and you'll end up doing time as an accessory after the fact.

But hey just keep passing out some of this bad advice and let's see just how it fairs when someone that takes it ends up getting jailed for listening to you all


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## SARGE7402

tango said:


> Police want to search you and your vehicle so they can find something/anything to charge you with, or to confiscate something for revenue!
> They are tax collectors for the city/ county/ state.


Really now? How about the cop that found the dead body in a plastic bag in the trunk of a lady's car here in Virginia.

Where is the revenue generating in that. Or is it more likely getting a toadette off the street and justice for the dead girl


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## Prepadoodle

There was this guy in California who made motions for the judge to disqualify himself due to a conflict of interest. His reasoning went something like this...

The judge was drawing a salary from the county. The county was the one bringing the charges against the defendant. Therefore, the judge was in a position to rule in favor of his employer, which is a clear conflict of interest.

Here's a bit from Federal law, but the same idea applies at all levels; (a federal judge) "shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned." (Title 28 of the United States Code, Section 455)

If I remember right, he got judge after judge to recuse themselves until there was nobody left willing to put the case on their docket.I lost track of this case about a year or 2 ago, and now can't remember the guy's name. It's an interesting strategy though.


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## SARGE7402

That might happen in California - but I'd like to see something more that your say so - but here in Virginia they take a dim view on frivolous motions and have something to say like contempt of court. Course here in the commonwealth the Judges work for the state and the courts are set up for each county or city. So no conflict of interest


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## Maine-Marine

SARGE7402 said:


> - called hot pursuit (just try stopping a cop from entering your house if that truly is the case and you'll end up doing time as an accessory after the fact.
> 
> But hey just keep passing out some of this bad advice and let's see just how it fairs when someone that takes it ends up getting jailed for listening to you all


here is everything you want to now about HOT PURSUIT.... trust me it does not offer a 100% guarantee that the cops can enter your home or business.... There are some pretty strict guidelines on when HOT PURSUIT allows an officer to enter with out a warrant....

two things are 
A. the officer must believe that life is threaten
B. Evidence maybe destroyed


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## Maine-Marine

Prepadoodle said:


> There was this guy in California who made motions for the judge to disqualify himself due to a conflict of interest. His reasoning went something like this...
> 
> The judge was drawing a salary from the county. The county was the one bringing the charges against the defendant. Therefore, the judge was in a position to rule in favor of his employer, which is a clear conflict of interest.
> 
> Here's a bit from Federal law, but the same idea applies at all levels; (a federal judge) "shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned." (Title 28 of the United States Code, Section 455)
> 
> If I remember right, he got judge after judge to recuse themselves until there was nobody left willing to put the case on their docket.I lost track of this case about a year or 2 ago, and now can't remember the guy's name. It's an interesting strategy though.


Just goes to show...you can hear anything if you listen long enough....the above is incorrect... no judge would recuse himself for that reason....


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## rice paddy daddy

I am as pro-police as anyone on this board. 
I am also a law abiding citizen "who has nothing to hide."
I will never give my consent to a search of my person, my vehicle, or my home. If a search does occur and it is not done by the letter of the law, I will obtain the best counsel I can afford.

I have taken various weapon training courses put on by our local Sheriff's Department. One, which cost me $20, was called "How to avoid going to jail", and it related to a self defense shooting. As per the cops themselves, if you shoot someone in self defense do not answer ANY of their questions or make a statement without your lawyer present. Any statement you make can and will bee used against you, even if you are innocent.
This same advice applies to something as simple as a simple traffic stop - do not volunteer any information, never consent to a vehicle search, and do not answer leading questions such as "do you know why I stopped you?"

Again, I am pro-police, pro law and order, and have never had any charge worse than a speeding ticket. But I am not stupid.


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## tango

Sarge, that is but one instance where the search was good.
How many have not been?
I am pro law enforcement, but I am also aware.


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## James m

You guys confuse the heck out of me. One week its one way the next its another. Figure out which way you're chasing your tail.


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## DadofTheFamily

I agree with Denton. In today's world, they're likely to plant something in your vehicle or home.


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## Prepadoodle

I found the guy's video. The "bribes" he is talking about are the judge's salaries. Of course they have to find a way to beat this guy or the whole system melts down. This was 4 years ago, I have no idea what eventually happened. This is worth a watch though...


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## Prepadoodle

They ended up putting him in jail, where he is being held, "... without trial, without bail, without an attorney, and with every appeal denied." <shrug>


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## talon115

The system is set up to funnel as many people through it as possible. All laws are written by lawyers, for lawyers to make money. Your rights don't even fit into the equation. Only the founding fathers have saved us so far, but their memories are fading fast.


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## Maine-Marine

DadofTheFamily said:


> I agree with Denton. In today's world, they're likely to plant something in your vehicle or home.


I do not believe that....


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## Ripon

This...unfortunately I'm starting to see some folks not care there is a warrant.



Denton said:


> I do not consent to a search unless there is a warrant. Period. I never have a thing to hide, but I believe I owe that much to the founding fathers.


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## Camel923

Listen to Nancy Regan and just say "NO!!!!!".


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## Ripon

With 800,000 police officers I would be concerned. Not greatly but still concerned. My biggest disappointment and one of my most tragic experiences in LE was busting my seargent for planting narcotics after his drug search warrant yielded nothing. He went to our evidence locker, procured some, and dumped it at the search site 97 minutes into the search. Thing was I had searched the spot myself and both me and another rookie saw him put it there....video cam at the evidence locker showed him taking it. I thought for sure he'd go to prison but got off w probation and a dismissal from the PD. want to know the really weird part....the guy who we served the warrant on plead guilty and took a one year lock up deal...so we were heavily doubted for a long time.



Maine-Marine said:


> I do not believe that....


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## rice paddy daddy

Maine-Marine said:


> I do not believe that....


I do not believe that happens in my area either. Around here, the Deputies know who the bad actors are, and it's easy to wait until they know the criminals are dirty.

I'm a grey haired white guy with Army, Vietnam, VFW, VVA, and unit decals on the back of my vehicle. I do not speed (more than 7 over). The cops leave me alone, they have better things to do.
On the back roads here it is considered politeness to wave at oncoming drivers. I do, even for police. Don't you?


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## Arklatex

I've seen a bunch of cases where people will refuse a vehicle search during a traffic stop. If you think you will save time by refusing a search you are wrong. The officer will detain you until a k9 unit comes to sniff your vehicle for contraband. That takes a long time. I think the k9 units must be driving 5 mph all the way there and stop for a snack on the way... If you are innocent you just burned a lot of time. If you are carrying something you just got caught. 

That said I have never been asked to be searched before. I think if I am ever asked I will refuse on principal.


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## Medic33

both post's from RPD -yeah I think are spot on.
the only thing I haven't read anything about on here yet and it may show my ignorance is* probable cause*
were I live they can enter your home on this as well as search your vehicle.
here is some other questions for you guys 
JUST SOME FYI
2 officials who do not need a warrant to search your house or vehicles? -
who is the most powerful law officer out there?


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## Arklatex

Medic33 said:


> both post's from RPD -yeah I think are spot on.
> the only thing I haven't read anything about on here yet and it may show my ignorance is* probable cause*
> were I live they can enter your home on this as well as search your vehicle.
> here is some other questions for you guys
> JUST SOME FYI
> 2 officials who do not need a warrant to search your house or vehicles? -
> who is the most powerful law officer out there?


Game wardens


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## Arklatex

A k9 officer can establish probable cause if the dog alerts.


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## Medic33

got one game wardens 
k9 nope


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## Arklatex

Medic33 said:


> got one game wardens
> k9 nope


Agree but they can establish probable cause for a search.


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## Maine-Marine

Ripon said:


> With 800,000 police officers I would be concerned. Not greatly but still concerned. My biggest disappointment and one of my most tragic experiences in LE was busting my seargent for planting narcotics after his drug search warrant yielded nothing. He went to our evidence locker, procured some, and dumped it at the search site 97 minutes into the search. Thing was I had searched the spot myself and both me and another rookie saw him put it there....video cam at the evidence locker showed him taking it. I thought for sure he'd go to prison but got off w probation and a dismissal from the PD. want to know the really weird part....the guy who we served the warrant on plead guilty and took a one year lock up deal...so we were heavily doubted for a long time.


OMG - out of 800,000 how many are bad


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## Maine-Marine

Arklatex said:


> I've seen a bunch of cases where people will refuse a vehicle search during a traffic stop. If you think you will save time by refusing a search you are wrong. The officer will detain you until a k9 unit comes to sniff your vehicle for contraband. That takes a long time. I think the k9 units must be driving 5 mph all the way there and stop for a snack on the way... If you are innocent you just burned a lot of time. If you are carrying something you just got caught.
> 
> That said I have never been asked to be searched before. I think if I am ever asked I will refuse on principal.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/u...g-sniffing-dog-use-in-traffic-stops.html?_r=0


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## Arklatex

Maine-Marine said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/u...g-sniffing-dog-use-in-traffic-stops.html?_r=0


News to me. Excellent! The cases I mentioned the "reasonable cause" was simply the drivers refusal of a search. This is good IMO. It gives more confidence to the average Joe to deny an unreasonable search.


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## 6811

Medic33 said:


> did that work for you 6811?


I have never been searched by the police and since I never carry any contraband and I was to be searched, I will demand a search wàrrant. In my previous post I was suggesting to a consent search if you know you are going to be caught anyway. This way you have a chance in court. Judges don't like consent searches.


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## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> BS.. they may FIND a way but I would rather that and then defend it then give them permission... finding it and being able to use IT in court are two different things...
> 
> I am very law abiding... but I am not going to allow them to take MY TIME... NO SIR - you want to search - get a warrant or do it illegally


I agree... But I think you are missing my point


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## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> has not worked, will not work,...


Oh really? How do you know it won't work? Have you ever conducted any searches as a LEO? Have you ever been in a trial where 4a is being argued?


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## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> here is everything you want to now about HOT PURSUIT.... trust me it does not offer a 100% guarantee that the cops can enter your home or business.... There are some pretty strict guidelines on when HOT PURSUIT allows an officer to enter with out a warrant....
> 
> two things are
> A. the officer must believe that life is threaten
> B. Evidence maybe destroyed


The above is exigent circumstances but not exactly a hot pursuit..


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## Prepadoodle

This guy stands his ground and doesn't tell them anything. If not for his cameras, who knows how this would have ended?


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## 6811

Prepadoodle said:


> This guy stands his ground and doesn't tell them anything. If not for his cameras, who knows how this would have ended?


These deputies are probably rookies. From my understanding there was a complaint that this guy was following a woman. He should have been yanked out of that car and detained for investigation. This was not a traffic violation, its a criminal investigation. These cops lost control of this situation, too much argument and time lapse.


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## Ripon

Too many of course. Fact is some will be. It only 1/10th of 1% are bad it's 800 who likely work 32,000 hours a week creating a lot of opportunity for hype on YouTube.

As for probable cause it does not enable a cop to search without a warrant. A police officer must present the probable cause to a judge for a warrant. The only times that does not exist is incident to arrest for which they can impound and inventory your car or have a exigent circumstance like someone screaming in the trunk. Plain view would be a third.



Maine-Marine said:


> OMG - out of 800,000 how many are bad


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## Prepadoodle

Yes, there was an allegation of stalking, which was false. She falsely accused him of following her "from the airport," and, "since yesterday." As the investigator said, somebody was watching her all that time, but it wasn't him; he had just come on shift.

If they had evidence that he had committed a crime, they should have arrested him. They had no such evidence, in fact, no evidence at all except for her false statement.

They had his plate number and no doubt ran his plate. They already knew who he was. He knew this, they knew it, and he knew that they knew. If some actual evidence materialized, they could easily find the guy.

He was under no obligation to ID himself. Our legal system is built on the foundation of the presumption of innocence. The cops lost control of the situation? We don't live in a police state just yet, the cops aren't supposed to be in control. They asked him for information, which is their right, he refused, which is his right. They had his vehicle information and a good description (if not a picture), that should have been the end of it.

Once you say you don't answer questions without your lawyer being present, they should either arrest you or let you go. Asking the same questions over and over is a pointless waste of everyone's time. If the woman filed an official complaint (as in, was pressing charges), they would have hauled him in for questioning. It's obvious she didn't.

The cops were professionals at least. They eventually cut their losses and called it a day. There are a lot of cops who would have escalated this situation into something really ugly. Frankly, I would have just IDed myself since they already had my registration info, but that's just me. 

I'm guessing that he didn't want them to go back to the woman and confirm she was under surveillance. His job was to catch her with her boyfriend. She's not gonna go near him if she knows for a fact she has a PI on her tail. So yeah, the cops had their job to do and he had his.


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## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> I know it sounds crazy right. But if you are about to get caught with a contraband. It will be best for you if the cops found them with just a consent search. You can easily win that in court. Judge ask you did you give the officer consent to search your car?. Yes your honor, wouldn't you? He has a gun, I'm scared of him. If he asked me to strip down to my briefs and run around in circles I would. He has a gun and I don't want to die. It's either I exercise my rights or die. There you go, just like that you are out of there. You get to walk.


Wut?!

Not even close. It is WAY better for you if he finds contraband while conducting an ILLEGAL search. That makes it inadmissible in court, effectively negating any charges against you.

You are going to jail either way.


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## Jakthesoldier

SARGE7402 said:


> You realize that not all searches require a warrant? Such as plain view. Or chasing a person that has just committed a crime in their presence - called hot pursuit (just try stopping a cop from entering your house if that truly is the case and you'll end up doing time as an accessory after the fact.
> 
> But hey just keep passing out some of this bad advice and let's see just how it fairs when someone that takes it ends up getting jailed for listening to you all


Just because a search is legal does not mean you should consent. It really is a matter of record, also helps if they hold you without probable cause, get a warrant, perform the search, and find nothing. The fact that you didn't consent at any point will help in a harassment, etc. case.


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## Jakthesoldier

Maine-Marine said:


> I do not believe that....


Believe it all you don't want to. It happens, and there are videos of former FBI and police admitting it happens on the regular. Also with TSA.


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## Jakthesoldier

Arklatex said:


> I've seen a bunch of cases where people will refuse a vehicle search during a traffic stop. If you think you will save time by refusing a search you are wrong. The officer will detain you until a k9 unit comes to sniff your vehicle for contraband. That takes a long time. I think the k9 units must be driving 5 mph all the way there and stop for a snack on the way... If you are innocent you just burned a lot of time. If you are carrying something you just got caught.
> 
> That said I have never been asked to be searched before. I think if I am ever asked I will refuse on principal.


Thank God the Supreme Court just ruled this illegal.


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## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> These deputies are probably rookies. From my understanding there was a complaint that this guy was following a woman. He should have been yanked out of that car and detained for investigation. This was not a traffic violation, its a criminal investigation. These cops lost control of this situation, too much argument and time lapse.


So if I called PD right now and said you were stalking me that would be reason for them to pull you over and detain you?

Isn't that the same as stopping a man with a gun because he has a gun? (Illegal in case you didn't know)


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## Jakthesoldier

Actually, this is what we now call "SWATing"


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## Jakthesoldier

Sorry about all the posts, my multi quote isn't working ATM


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## PaulS

I would never consent to an unwarranted search. I will not speak to a cop without a lawyer present. I will use my forth and fifth amendment protected rights. 
I will not invite an on-duty cop into my home. I do have friends who are county cops and I will let them in when they are off duty.
One piece of paper with two messages on it:

I do not consent to unwarranted searches.
I am invoking my fifth amendment right to silence.

If I am in a car, I will ask if I am free to go - they can only hold you for about 30 minutes without arresting you.
If I am at home I will politely ask them to get off my property, close my door behind me and go about my business.
If they don't leave I will call 911 to have them removed.


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## Jakthesoldier

I've always wanted to call 911 on a cop. 
Not out of malice, but just to see what would actually take place.


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## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> Wut?!
> 
> Not even close. It is WAY better for you if he finds contraband while conducting an ILLEGAL search. That makes it inadmissible in court, effectively negating any charges against you.
> 
> You are going to jail either way.


Unfortunately some cops are lazy, and most don't have a clue how to write a search warrant. But cops certainly know not to search illegally... So how does cops get away with searching without a warrant? It's called search incident to a lawful arrest. They lock you up, then they search your car for inventory purposes, Just like that you are done.
But, if you let them search you before you are arrested, you can tell the judge that you were in fear for your life. You felt coerced, they have guns and they can kill you easily. Now, this will only work for vehicles, for your home you always demand a search warrant.


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## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> So if I called PD right now and said you were stalking me that would be reason for them to pull you over and detain you?
> 
> Isn't that the same as stopping a man with a gun because he has a gun? (Illegal in case you didn't know)


Yes cops can detain for stalking because stalking is a crime. A call for a man with a gun in certain states is not enough for a stop, however in Washington DC it is enough to detain you because there is no open carry nor ccw in DC.


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## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> Oh really? How do you know it won't work? Have you ever conducted any searches as a LEO? Have you ever been in a trial where 4a is being argued?


I have done a bunch of searchs....and I mean a bunch... well over 1,000... None came up in trial


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## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> I have done a bunch of searchs....and I mean a bunch... well over 1,000... None came up in trial


These thousand searches you have done, were they consent to search, incident to an arrest or were they search warrant searches? Or are they searches in a military base?


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## SARGE7402

Maine-Marine said:


> I have done a bunch of searchs....and I mean a bunch... well over 1,000... None came up in trial


Once had a lawyer try and get his client's statement made after he was arrested because he wasn't mirandized. My explanation was that I had a warrant for his arrest, ID'd him arrested him and other than asking him to show me his ID never once asked him a question.

And yeah he ended up doing time convicted with his own confession


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## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> Yes cops can detain for stalking because stalking is a crime. A call for a man with a gun in certain states is not enough for a stop, however in Washington DC it is enough to detain you because there is no open carry nor ccw in DC.


Cops can detain you for carrying explosives..but they have to have evidence you are carrying explosives.... they have to prove/have a reasonable suspicion of stalking

by the way, following somebody for 2 days is not stalking

* A person willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person. ...
The person who made the threat did so with the specific intent to place the other person in reasonable fear for his or her safety or the safety of the immediate family of such person(s).

To be convicted of stalking in most states, the stalker must display a criminal intent to cause fear in the victim. Various statutes require the conduct of the stalker to be "willful," "purposeful," "intentional," or "knowing.*


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## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> These thousand searches you have done, were they consent to search, incident to an arrest or were they search warrant searches? Or are they searches in a military base?


Some but not all

Yes

no

Some


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## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> Yes cops can detain for stalking because stalking is a crime. A call for a man with a gun in certain states is not enough for a stop, however in Washington DC it is enough to detain you because there is no open carry nor ccw in DC.


actually it is not.... if I am carrying a shotgun from my house out to my car to go to the range and a person calls and the cops show up... just as I am ready to leave... what PC do they have to detain me.... a phone call from a person saying I was carrying a gun???


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## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> Cops can detain you for carrying explosives..but they have to have evidence you are carrying explosives.... they have to prove/have a reasonable suspicion of stalking
> 
> by the way, following somebody for 2 days is not stalking
> 
> * A person willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person. ...
> The person who made the threat did so with the specific intent to place the other person in reasonable fear for his or her safety or the safety of the immediate family of such person(s).
> 
> To be convicted of stalking in most states, the stalker must display a criminal intent to cause fear in the victim. Various statutes require the conduct of the stalker to be "willful," "purposeful," "intentional," or "knowing.*


We were talking about stops and being detained, not to be convicted. And following someone for 2 days is a cause for reasonable suspicion... It may not be probable cause, nor evidence of stalking.

As for carrying explosives, you need reasonable and articulable suspicion to make a stop... Not evidence. Cops never have confirmed evidence on the scene. Evidence is developed later on, usually before trial.


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## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> actually it is not.... if I am carrying a shotgun from my house out to my car to go to the range and a person calls and the cops show up... just as I am ready to leave... what PC do they have to detain me.... a phone call from a person saying I was carrying a gun???


In DC yes. A phone call saying you have a gun can cause you to get stopped. Why? Because no guns allowed in DC, no ccw, no open carry no guns period. In Maryland, there is very limited ccw so it will depend on the call.


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## darsk20

rice paddy daddy said:


> I do not believe that happens in my area either. Around here, the Deputies know who the bad actors are, and it's easy to wait until they know the criminals are dirty.
> 
> I'm a grey haired white guy with Army, Vietnam, VFW, VVA, and unit decals on the back of my vehicle. I do not speed (more than 7 over). The cops leave me alone, they have better things to do.
> On the back roads here it is considered politeness to wave at oncoming drivers. I do, even for police. Don't you?


Last time I waved first I got pulled over. In a small town where I knew most everyone, I might, but Chattanooga police fixed that when I was 16. He thought we had flipped him off. There were five of us in the car heading to play miniature golf of all things. We were respectful and finally let go. I am still respectful but still don't trust them. They are human just like me and make miatakes.


----------



## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> Some but not all
> 
> Yes
> 
> no
> 
> Some


If you have done searches inside military installations then you are an MP. Very different than civilian LEO when it comes to courts and searches. Also, 1000 searches is a bit too high for civilian LEO. TSA or US Customs border searches can get up there in numbers but they are actually called inspections, not searches.


----------



## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> In DC yes. A phone call saying you have a gun can cause you to get stopped. Why? Because no guns allowed in DC, no ccw, no open carry no guns period. In Maryland, there is very limited ccw so it will depend on the call.


guns are allowed in DC... you need to check your facts


----------



## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> guns are allowed in DC... you need to check your facts


For LEO's yes, Civilians no. The Heller decision allowed DC residents to have guns but there was a moratorium in place so they can't have them yet. It sucks in DC.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> Yes cops can detain for stalking because stalking is a crime. A call for a man with a gun in certain states is not enough for a stop, however in Washington DC it is enough to detain you because there is no open carry nor ccw in DC.


Yea, IF THEY OBSERVE YOU ACTUALLY STALKING. Not if some bimbo claims it.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> Unfortunately some cops are lazy, and most don't have a clue how to write a search warrant. But cops certainly know not to search illegally... So how does cops get away with searching without a warrant? It's called search incident to a lawful arrest. They lock you up, then they search your car for inventory purposes, Just like that you are done.
> But, if you let them search you before you are arrested, you can tell the judge that you were in fear for your life. You felt coerced, they have guns and they can kill you easily. Now, this will only work for vehicles, for your home you always demand a search warrant.


Literally every bit of the advice you have offered has been wrong, harmful, and stupid.

Stop while you are behind.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> We were talking about stops and being detained, not to be convicted. And following someone for 2 days is a cause for reasonable suspicion... It may not be probable cause, nor evidence of stalking.
> 
> As for carrying explosives, you need reasonable and articulable suspicion to make a stop... Not evidence. Cops never have confirmed evidence on the scene. Evidence is developed later on, usually before trial.


A phone call claiming you did something is NOT articulable suspicion. It does NOT warrant a stop.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> If you have done searches inside military installations then you are an MP. Very different than civilian LEO when it comes to courts and searches. Also, 1000 searches is a bit too high for civilian LEO. TSA or US Customs border searches can get up there in numbers but they are actually called inspections, not searches.


Wrong again. Civilian police DO opperate on military bases, and not everyone who performs stops and searches is police to begin with. Regular soldiers, government employees working as police, CID, security forces, bounty hunters, etc. all do stops and searches on military installations. 1000 searches could easily be achieved by civilian LEO in 2-3 years time depending on the area they work. All made possible by idiots like you who just roll over and say "sure Officer search my stuff"

Also did it ever occur to you that if you aren't the original owner of your vehicle, and you aren't like me, (strip interior of vehicle for weight reduction and upgrades) you could have all kinds of crap on your car you don't know about. But guess what? You are still responsible for the contents of your vehicle, yours or not. If you step on a roach and it stick to your shoe and ends up under your seat, it's YOUR roach now. Have fun with uncle Bubba in the pen, you are going to jail.

Stop trying. Nothing you say is correct.


----------



## Denton

6811 said:


> We were talking about stops and being detained, not to be convicted. And following someone for 2 days is a cause for reasonable suspicion... It may not be probable cause, nor evidence of stalking.
> 
> As for carrying explosives, you need reasonable and articulable suspicion to make a stop... Not evidence. Cops never have confirmed evidence on the scene. Evidence is developed later on, usually before trial.


I would really hate to live in your country. Its citizenry seems to be controlled by martial law, where the citizens are guilty until proven innocent, cops can stop and search at will to gather the evidence to build a case and then charge the citizen of a crime, and it is best that the citizen allows all of this to happen if the citizen wants his masters to go easy on him.

I sure am glad my country's laws are supposed to be in accordance with a document called the Bill of Rights and the citizen has the opportunity to fight unconstitutional activity as well as unconstitutional laws.


----------



## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> Literally every bit of the advice you have offered has been wrong, harmful, and stupid.
> 
> Stop while you are behind.


And I should listen to you because you are an experienced LEO? Dude you are a security guard and don't you forget that. I'm only on my 24th year taking out trash in a major metropolitan city, and I'm not talking about your regular household garbage. I deal with child abusers, drug dealers and murderers and I did 11 years of military police. On my free time I teach recruits in the police academy. So what is your expertise?


----------



## Denton

6811 said:


> And I should listen to you because you are an experienced LEO? Dude you are a security guard and don't you forget that. I'm only on my 24th year taking out trash in a major metropolitan city, and I'm not talking about your regular household garbage. I deal with child abusers, drug dealers and murderers and I did 11 years of military police. On my free time I teach recruits in the police academy. So what is your expertise?


And, everything you have suggested is why people do not like or trust today's law enforcement.


----------



## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> Wrong again. Civilian police DO opperate on military bases, and not everyone who performs stops and searches is police to begin with. Regular soldiers, government employees working as police, CID, security forces, bounty hunters, etc. all do stops and searches on military installations. 1000 searches could easily be achieved by civilian LEO in 2-3 years time depending on the area they work. All made possible by idiots like you who just roll over and say "sure Officer search my stuff"
> 
> Also did it ever occur to you that if you aren't the original owner of your vehicle, and you aren't like me, (strip interior of vehicle for weight reduction and upgrades) you could have all kinds of crap on your car you don't know about. But guess what? You are still responsible for the contents of your vehicle, yours or not. If you step on a roach and it stick to your shoe and ends up under your seat, it's YOUR roach now. Have fun with uncle Bubba in the pen, you are going to jail.
> 
> Stop trying. Nothing you say is correct.


Military installations are covered primarily by UCMJ. So you think 2 to 3 years of service in civilianLEO can rack up 1000 searches? Tell me how many days are there in one year? Then x3. That's 1095 days Jack. You must be searching people even on you days off... You need to stop dude, don't talk about something you have no experience what so ever. So who is the idiot now?


----------



## 6811

Denton said:


> And, everything you have suggested is why people do not like or trust today's law enforcement.


I'm not violating anyone's rights? If you read my post correctly I am even giving you guys a tip on how to beat searches...


----------



## azrancher

6811 said:


> If you are hiding something illegal, sometimes it's better just to give verbal consent to search to police and just chalk it up as a loss so that you can walk out of it in court.


One word, *NEVER*. You will be just as guilty if you voluntarily give consent or have the officer get a search warrant. There will be no walking out of it in court.

*Rancher*


----------



## Denton

6811 said:


> I'm not violating anyone's rights? If you read my post correctly I am even giving you guys a tip on how to beat searches...


You really aren't the only one who has worked in the LE/CJ system. I've seen what happens when they consent to a search.

If you think I am a criminal, do your job the correct way. Gather the evidence needed to obtain a warrant. If there is an injured party, have the injured party do the affidavit thing, sign and swear, and take that to the judge.

The Bill of Rights - it's a wonderful thing and something to be protected as it is supposed to protect us.


----------



## 6811

Denton said:


> You really aren't the only one who has worked in the LE/CJ system. I've seen what happens when they consent to a search.
> 
> If you think I am a criminal, do your job the correct way. Gather the evidence needed to obtain a warrant. If there is an injured party, have the injured party do the affidavit thing, sign and swear, and take that to the judge.
> 
> The Bill of Rights - it's a wonderful thing and something to be protected as it is supposed to protect us.


I will try to simplify this again.... If you are a law abiding citizen with no contraband on board your car DON'T GIVE CONSENT. Tell them to get a warrant. That is the right thing to do and by asking for a warrant is your right.

Now if you happen to be a criminal and you want to get over the stupid police, and at the time of the car stop you believe he is going to catch you with the contraband anyway, give consent and fight it later. Yes you will go to jail that night but you are likely going to beat it in court. After all, the people don't trust cops because they are likely to shoot you while you have your back turned. You tell the judge you gave consent because if you did not, you feel that the jackbooted thug of a cop will bust a cap on you know what. Every search I do is either search incident to an arrest or a signed search warrant. Every year a district court judge comes to our academy to teach police to avoid consent searches. They are weak and likely to be the cause of you losing your case. So the info on how to beat a consent search came from a judge.


----------



## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> If you have done searches inside military installations then you are an MP. Very different than civilian LEO when it comes to courts and searches. Also, 1000 searches is a bit too high for civilian LEO. TSA or US Customs border searches can get up there in numbers but they are actually called inspections, not searches.


I was an MP, I also did US Customs


----------



## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> I will try to simplify this again.... If you are a law abiding citizen with no contraband on board your car DON'T GIVE CONSENT. Tell them to get a warrant. That is the right thing to do and by asking for a warrant is your right.
> 
> Now if you happen to be a criminal and you want to get over the stupid police, and at the time of the car stop you believe he is going to catch you with the contraband anyway, give consent and fight it later. Yes you will go to jail that night but you are likely going to beat it in court. After all, the people don't trust cops because they are likely to shoot you while you have your back turned. You tell the judge you gave consent because if you did not, you feel that the jackbooted thug of a cop will bust a cap on you know what. Every search I do is either search incident to an arrest or a signed search warrant. Every year a district court judge comes to our academy to teach police to avoid consent searches. They are weak and likely to be the cause of you losing your case. So the info on how to beat a consent search came from a judge.


SHOW ME ONE CASE--- where the judge through out the search because the consent was giving out of fear the cops would shot them..... JUST ONE


----------



## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> I'm not violating anyone's rights? If you read my post correctly I am even giving you guys a tip on how to beat searches...


your advise sucks.... a person has a better chance of fighting a forced non-consent search.... once you give consent and the search is done you are fecked (an irish term)

Again show me ONE CASE.... and I am not talking about Judd v. United States or Bumper


----------



## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> I was an MP, I also did US Customs


I never have done searches in the MP other than the usual gate check points. I was detailed to US Customs back in the early 90's but I did not get to search anyone. I was in UC ops against drug smugglers, OCDET then we switch to HIDTA.


----------



## Denton

Good clarification.

I agree with the suggestion of inherent threat-duress-coercion element whenever a cop makes contact with a citizen. Nobody ever pulled over when they saw my blue lights because they thought I was going to share my donuts. They knew that _if_ they didn't...

They didn't offer their license because of my magnetic and charming personality (although I used to have one of those); they knew what would happen _if_ they didn't...

_If _is implied throughout the whole process.

I am sure most of us have read about the civil forfeiture cases in states such as Florida, Georgia and Louisiana as well as other states. A family is traveling down the interstate, en route to their yearly vacation. Dad has a few thousand dollars in the suitcase that is to be used to see the sites and ride the rides. They are pulled over by a deputy for some infraction of the uniform commercial code. During the contact, the deputy says, "Y'all don't mind if I do a quick search of your car, in case y'all are carrying a bazooka, do y'all?" he says while laughing. Dad, feeling at ease with the jovial cop, allows the search. The cash is found and is kept because it might have been used for illegal activity.

Moral of the story? You might not be committing a crime, but that means nothing in so many ways that the average citizen doesn't know how he might get blind-sided.


----------



## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> SHOW ME ONE CASE--- where the judge through out the search because the consent was giving out of fear the cops would shot them..... JUST ONE


It was not my case, so I don't know... But if you are going to be in Baltimore in the near future I can have you seat in on an in-service class when the judges and ASA teaches about search warrants... By the way, they are telling us to disarm during interrogation now too, being armed in a small room apparently scares the suspects into full confessions.


----------



## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> It was not my case, so I don't know... But if you are going to be in Baltimore in the near future I can have you seat in on an in-service class when the judges and ASA teaches about search warrants... By the way, they are telling us to disarm during interrogation now too, being armed in a small room apparently scares the suspects into full confessions.


Are these democratic female judges??? Tell them to get a bigger pair of panties


----------



## Denton

6811 said:


> It was not my case, so I don't know... But if you are going to be in Baltimore in the near future I can have you seat in on an in-service class when the judges and ASA teaches about search warrants... By the way, they are telling us to disarm during interrogation now too, being armed in a small room apparently scares the suspects into full confessions.


It heartens me greatly that the courts are realizing the element of TDC. Good.


----------



## Maine-Marine

on a different topic - whatever happened to the request to be able to HIDE THREADS


----------



## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> Are these democratic female judges??? Tell them to get a bigger pair of panties


To be exact... They are TREE HUGGING democratic female judges.... And most of them are in loved with the bad guys and they hate the police.


----------



## just mike

I have been stopped two times at drug checkpoints, once in Georgia , once in Florida. In Georgia it was on the interstate, blocking all traffic, checking license etc, When told to pull off to the shoulder so they could search my truck I simply said NO, Pissed the trooper off to no end. I had to repeat myself several times NO-I DO NOT CONSENT TO YOUR SEARCH, he finally handed me back my license with a terse GO ON. Same if Florida except it was on a bridge going over to an island and it was local LEO. They already had 12 to 15 vehicles pulled over to search some with boats , jetskis ,trailers. LEO kept repeating what do you have to hide?? I had to finally ask if I was being detained and if not could I have my license back as I had places to be and things to do. (I was at work)F**K them and their search and seizure. I just drive a very nice truck and I'm sure one of the cops had plans on driving it with a new set of blue lights. BTW no contraband just a 45 in the console.


----------



## Medic33

just remember to eat 10 boxes of exlax and prime your ass with peanut butter before a cavity search


----------



## hardcore

I am not sure what I will do. I mean answer questions , consent to a search or not. I think it will depend on the attitude of the cop. I don't do illegal things and have nothing to hide, its just the thought of having to obey unlawful orders that gets me.


----------



## Prepared One

My thought for now is that I try to disingage as soon as possible. I am not a criminal so won't have contriband or be guilty of commiting a crime. I will be respectaful as possible keeping my hands in plain site on the wheel,advise him that I have a loaded firearm in the glove compartment or councel as it is my right to do so in the state of Texas whether I have a license or not. ( Must be concealed. ) Beyound the traffic infraction I will respectfully decline any further search unless there is a warrent. There is nothing to find but why take the chance. Now, if they choose to search anyway then that's on them. My plan is to get on my way asap. I am like RPD. Old white guy with a grey beard and grey hair who looks like life has kicked him a bit. LOL I am sure they have better things to do then mess with me over an occasional speeding ticket. I have had maybe 2 tickets over the last 20 years or so.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> Military installations are covered primarily by UCMJ. So you think 2 to 3 years of service in civilianLEO can rack up 1000 searches? Tell me how many days are there in one year? Then x3. That's 1095 days Jack. You must be searching people even on you days off... You need to stop dude, don't talk about something you have no experience what so ever. So who is the idiot now?


You, genius. Ever worked a DUI checkpoint? 30-40 searches in 6 hours easy.

24 years of lying to civilians. 24 years of covering up your screw ups, 24 years of corrupt behavior.

"Oh I don't do anything corrupt, it's the other guys"
You see it, it happens and you know about it, you don't do diddly to stop it.

NOTHING you have said is correct.

NONE of your advice is correct.

Wonder why many of us don't trust cops? Because you LIE. You lie to get people to incriminate themselves, to get away with shady behavior, to falsely arrest law abiding citizens because you don't like them standing up to you.

I am a security guard, for now. I'll NEVER be a cop. EVER.

And don't you DARE try to talk down to me because you push papers in the mean streets of your precinct basement. You have NO possible means of understanding what soldiers (oh yea, that's right, I'm ALSO a Seargent in the US Army) go through. Nothing that has happened in the United States in the life time of any member of this forum compares to the every day destruction we experience in war zones.

Seriously I try really hard to walk the line between respect and distrust for police, but people like you make it really freaking hard to have any respect for police. You are those that create cop haters. It's your own damn fault.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> It was not my case, so I don't know... But if you are going to be in Baltimore in the near future I can have you seat in on an in-service class when the judges and ASA teaches about search warrants... By the way, they are telling us to disarm during interrogation now too, being armed in a small room apparently scares the suspects into full confessions.


What the hell do you need a gun for in a room where a person is cuffed to the table?


----------



## Jakthesoldier

So two big events happened tonight, they involved LEO, and they were handled wrong.

Two women beating the dog piss out of each other while the husbands were off on the side doing the same.

After curfew, loudly, in front of children.

When our officers broke it up, one suffered an concussion, the other has a large neck wound.

They both asked to press charges.

Leo response? You ladies stay away from each other and have a good night.

Second event. Man beats his girlfriend so badly she requires and ambulance in front of two witnesses. Man flees the scene. 

9 cops in full kit stand around and wait for the guy to come back when they have his location and other units in the vicinity. Man returns, woman in the hospital declines to press charges. Leo releases man who hospitalizes the other two women before Leo gets off the property. 
No arrest made, state presses no charges (that's the practice in these) 

9 cops with their thumb up their butts.
I arrive in the middle (before the second set of assults, and before the guy comes back) they look at me like I have a dick growing out of my forehead. It takes 15 minutes to get a case number because it take 5 cops who only speak English and one who speaks Spanish to make a phone call to coax the man to return, while the other 4 pick their nose and watch. Oh, they didn't even HAVE a case number yet, it was still an incident number.


----------



## 6811

Maine-Marine said:


> your advise sucks.... a person has a better chance of fighting a forced non-consent search.... once you give consent and the search is done you are fecked (an irish term)
> 
> Again show me ONE CASE.... and I am not talking about Judd v. United States or Bumper


how do you prove a forced non consent case in court. do you think a judge will believe your word and not the police? apparently you don't go to court that much...


----------



## Maine-Marine

6811 said:


> how do you prove a forced non consent case in court. do you think a judge will believe your word and not the police? apparently you don't go to court that much...


how do you prove you felt threaten. How do the police prove you gave consent. how does anybody prove anything....'

I went to court (as an officer/LE) a few times.... twice for murder, once for speeding, once for attempted murder, several times for drugs... there may have been others

You do not REALLY think the officer would lie and say i gave him permission do you...

I would suggest tot he judge that he review this


----------



## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> You, genius. Ever worked a DUI checkpoint? 30-40 searches in 6 hours easy.
> 
> so all you do is a DUI check point.... one of those revenue makers for the state I see
> 
> 24 years of lying to civilians. 24 years of covering up your screw ups, 24 years of corrupt behavior.
> 
> oh, so you are also a psychic now...are you sure its not 21 or 22 years of being corrupt?
> 
> "Oh I don't do anything corrupt, it's the other guys"
> You see it, it happens and you know about it, you don't do diddly to stop it.
> 
> so you know what I do, have you been following me around... oh that's right, you are a psychic
> 
> NOTHING you have said is correct.
> 
> NONE of your advice is correct.
> 
> Wonder why many of us don't trust cops? Because you LIE. You lie to get people to incriminate themselves, to get away with shady behavior, to falsely arrest law abiding citizens because you don't like them standing up to you.
> 
> Jack you are starting to sound like someone I know from new Jersey...
> 
> I am a security guard, for now. I'll NEVER be a cop. EVER.
> 
> but seriously how many LE agencies have you put your application in. with the way you express yourself you will fit right in with the likes of "I got police powers" types, which is probably why you have not been selected yet.
> 
> And don't you DARE try to talk down to me because you push papers in the mean streets of your precinct basement. You have NO possible means of understanding what soldiers (oh yea, that's right, I'm ALSO a Seargent in the US Army) go through. Nothing that has happened in the United States in the life time of any member of this forum compares to the every day destruction we experience in war zones.
> 
> we don't have a basement... you mean sergeant as in SGT, as in E5 right? I'll make sure to render and hand salute "seargent"
> 
> Seriously I try really hard to walk the line between respect and distrust for police, but people like you make it really freaking hard to have any respect for police. You are those that create cop haters. It's your own damn fault.


cops don't care what you think jack, and that's a fact.


----------



## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> What the hell do you need a gun for in a room where a person is cuffed to the table?


a person cuffed on the table? that's either in the movies or in the office of the mall cops. pedophiles wont talk to you if you keep them cuffed during interviews.


----------



## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> cops don't care what you think jack, and that's a fact.


Funny, I wonder why they want me to come in and teach classes for them then?


----------



## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> So two big events happened tonight, they involved LEO, and they were handled wrong.
> 
> Two women beating the dog piss out of each other while the husbands were off on the side doing the same.
> 
> After curfew, loudly, in front of children.
> 
> When our officers broke it up, one suffered an concussion, the other has a large neck wound.
> 
> They both asked to press charges.
> 
> Leo response? You ladies stay away from each other and have a good night.
> 
> Second event. Man beats his girlfriend so badly she requires and ambulance in front of two witnesses. Man flees the scene.
> 
> 9 cops in full kit stand around and wait for the guy to come back when they have his location and other units in the vicinity. Man returns, woman in the hospital declines to press charges. Leo releases man who hospitalizes the other two women before Leo gets off the property.
> No arrest made, state presses no charges (that's the practice in these)
> 
> 9 cops with their thumb up their butts.
> I arrive in the middle (before the second set of assults, and before the guy comes back) they look at me like I have a dick growing out of my forehead. It takes 15 minutes to get a case number because it take 5 cops who only speak English and one who speaks Spanish to make a phone call to coax the man to return, while the other 4 pick their nose and watch. Oh, they didn't even HAVE a case number yet, it was still an incident number.


wow... busy night at the apartment complex. I can tell you are all pumped up with adrenaline there Jack... by the way I got a serious question, do you drive one of those golf carts with light bars on top? how fast can they go?


----------



## Jakthesoldier

No, I drive a charger or an F150. And next to my Evo, they are still slow. 
Nice try through. 
Jealous that I do more in one night than you do in a month? Or maybe that I actually prevent and stop crimes in progress while you just do paperwork for the people who mop up the mess?

Adrenaline? Not so much. When you get mortared almost daily, shot at, rocketed, blown up, etc., not much really excites you after that.

Fist fights, suicides, knife attacks, and shootings are just another day at the office.

Then again, what do I know, I'm "just a security guard"


----------



## Jakthesoldier

6811 said:


> wow... busy night at the apartment complex. I can tell you are all pumped up with adrenaline there Jack... by the way I got a serious question, do you drive one of those golf carts with light bars on top? how fast can they go?


Kind of funny how you think you can talk down to the people who do your job for you.

Also funny that you have 175 posts, and they are all wrong.

Even funnier that you try to poke fun at one of my current jobs to mask the fact that you are so incredibly wrong all the time?

Did you have to practice at being wrong so much, or did it just come naturally?


----------



## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> No, I drive a charger or an F150. And next to my Evo, they are still slow.
> Nice try through.
> Jealous that I do more in one night than you do in a month? Or maybe that I actually prevent and stop crimes in progress while you just do paperwork for the people who mop up the mess?
> 
> Adrenaline? Not so much. When you get mortared almost daily, shot at, rocketed, blown up, etc., not much really excites you after that.
> 
> Fist fights, suicides, knife attacks, and shootings are just another day at the office.
> 
> Then again, what do I know, I'm "just a security guard"


damn, you got me.... yes jack I am very jealous of you, I always dreamed of doing your job since I was a little kid. the one I have now sucks... I get called by patrol to go out to the crime scene, I write search warrants then I have to serve them too. after that I go meet with the ASA and medical staff, sometimes the Medical examiner if the victim don't survive. then after that the boring stuff begins... I get the suspect, explain Miranda, then I interrogate. oh , sometimes I get to give lie detector test too.... hey jack, wanna know how to beat a lie detector test..... simple... don't lie.:joyous:


----------



## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> Funny, I wonder why they want me to come in and teach classes for them then?


oh you teach classes too.... cool, what do you teach?


----------



## 6811

Jakthesoldier said:


> Kind of funny how you think you can talk down to the people who do your job for you.
> 
> Also funny that you have 175 posts, and they are all wrong.
> 
> Even funnier that you try to poke fun at one of my current jobs to mask the fact that you are so incredibly wrong all the time?
> 
> Did you have to practice at being wrong so much, or did it just come naturally?


yes I intentionally wrote those 175 post to be completely wrong. I was just testing you cause I want to see if you would catch it....


----------



## Denton

Miranda.

Not to change the topic, or maybe to do so, what do y'all think of having to explain to someone their right to remain silent?


----------



## SARGE7402

Jakthesoldier said:


> Wrong again. Civilian police DO opperate on military bases, and not everyone who performs stops and searches is police to begin with. Regular soldiers, government employees working as police, CID, security forces, bounty hunters, etc. all do stops and searches on military installations. 1000 searches could easily be achieved by civilian LEO in 2-3 years time depending on the area they work. All made possible by idiots like you who just roll over and say "sure Officer search my stuff"
> 
> Also did it ever occur to you that if you aren't the original owner of your vehicle, and you aren't like me, (strip interior of vehicle for weight reduction and upgrades) you could have all kinds of crap on your car you don't know about. But guess what? You are still responsible for the contents of your vehicle, yours or not. If you step on a roach and it stick to your shoe and ends up under your seat, it's YOUR roach now. Have fun with uncle Bubba in the pen, you are going to jail.
> 
> Stop trying. Nothing you say is correct.


First I think you need to dial it back a notch or two. First Civilian police - Town, City, County nor State - have any jurisdiction to work on a military base. Military Police and DOD Civilian Police are the only folks (other than say FBI) to conduct LE type searches on Military bases. The searches performed as one enters the gate are "consent" searches. Want to come on base, your vehicle is subject to being searched. Been that way since the early 70's.

Secondly no bounty hunters perform searches on base. They may show up to pick up a bail skip, but it has to be done with the concurrence of the Base JAG.

Thirdly calling some one an idiot is not very becoming.

And you have obviously never been a law enforcement officer. 1000 searches in a three year period - unless you're doing prisoner transports - is ludicrous.


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## 6811

Denton said:


> Miranda.
> 
> Not to change the topic, or maybe to do so, what do y'all think of having to explain to someone their right to remain silent?


its a good thing... I have met a lot of people who would talk to the police because they have nothing to hide. some don't know that they have the right, or the option to simply exercise their 5A. Some don't even know about 5A


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## Denton

6811 said:


> its a good thing... I have met a lot of people who would talk to the police because they have nothing to hide. some don't know that they have the right, or the option to simply exercise their 5A. Some don't even know about 5A


I guess I am just a jerk. It is my opinion that a right shouldn't have to be explained. Especially considering one of the rights that are spelled out in the Bill of Rights. If someone doesn't know they have the right to remain silent, they are already on my bad side by being ignorant of the nation's history. Grrrrrrrr...


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## dsdmmat

SARGE7402 said:


> First I think you need to dial it back a notch or two. First Civilian police - Town, City, County nor State - have any jurisdiction to work on a military base. Military Police and DOD Civilian Police are the only folks (other than say FBI) to conduct LE type searches on Military bases.


That actually depends upon the post, The post I am on is concurent juristiction so the State Police and the Sheriff do have the ability to enforce state and county law on the post. I have seen the Sheriff pull over vehicles right in front of my building and issue citations.


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## SARGE7402

Jakthesoldier said:


> No, I drive a charger or an F150. And next to my Evo, they are still slow.
> Nice try through.
> Jealous that I do more in one night than you do in a month? Or maybe that I actually prevent and stop crimes in progress while you just do paperwork for the people who mop up the mess?
> 
> Adrenaline? Not so much. When you get mortared almost daily, shot at, rocketed, blown up, etc., not much really excites you after that.
> 
> Fist fights, suicides, knife attacks, and shootings are just another day at the office.
> 
> Then again, what do I know, I'm "just a security guard"


So I'm guessing that you are not a Peace Officer?

Also why didn't you or your compadres go to the Magistrate, JP and swear out the warrants? Heck the offense occurred in your presence. Guess that would be something you aren't used to doing?


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## dsdmmat

Denton said:


> I guess I am just a jerk. It is my opinion that a right shouldn't have to be explained. Especially considering one of the rights that are spelled out in the Bill of Rights. If someone doesn't know they have the right to remain silent, they are already on my bad side by being ignorant of the nation's history. Grrrrrrrr...


Didn't the SCotUS just decide (in the past two years) that remaining silent without declaring you want to use the 5th can be used as a sign of guilt? IIRC they also decided that if an Officer unintentionally violated the 4th amendment because he didn't know he was performing an illegal search it was still a legal search?


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## SARGE7402

dsdmmat said:


> That actually depends upon the post, The post I am on is concurent juristiction so the State Police and the Sheriff do have the ability to enforce state and county law on the post. I have seen the Sheriff pull over vehicles right in front of my building and issue citations.


There are a few but right off hand none comes to mind. But then I've been drawing blank spots all day


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## SARGE7402

Denton said:


> Miranda.
> 
> Not to change the topic, or maybe to do so, what do y'all think of having to explain to someone their right to remain silent?


The first part says keep quiet. That is a plain a statement as possible. Course most want to tell you their side so you'll unhook the bracelets.

Not


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## dsdmmat

SARGE7402 said:


> There are a few but right off hand none comes to mind. But then I've been drawing blank spots all day


I think a majority of the Army posts are going that route if they have not already.


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## SARGE7402

6811 said:


> wow... busy night at the apartment complex. I can tell you are all pumped up with adrenaline there Jack... by the way I got a serious question, do you drive one of those golf carts with light bars on top? how fast can they go?


Sounds like some one forgot to take their PTSD meds


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## SARGE7402

dsdmmat said:


> I think a majority of the Army posts are going that route if they have not already.


Interesting. Course I've been away from the Army for several years and the marines for 4


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## dsdmmat

SARGE7402 said:


> Military Police and DOD Civilian Police are the only folks (other than say FBI) to conduct LE type searches on Military bases.


This is not exactly the case either, anyone with UCMJ authority can authorize a search, in the form of health and welfare inspections. The only time MPs get involved is when the command finds something or they want to run the dogs through the barracks. There are a bunch of legal hoops one has to jump through for on post family housing but going through offices and barracks is pretty much a Commander says do it and the NCOs ececute it. I always hated doing them especially going when through Female Soldiers underwear drawers, but I had done them quite a few times during my 17 years as a NCO, especially when overseas.

We just had a unit lose a piece of equipment, the unit was locked down and every vehicle was searched, every room, every bag was searched they pretty much turned over every rock in the area until it was found.


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## SARGE7402

good point, I'd forgotten about UCMJ.


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## dsdmmat

SARGE7402 said:


> good point, I'd forgotten about UCMJ.


Yeah lots of different rules go into effect when you are subject to UCMJ. As an NCO I could detain anyone I needed to until the police arrived to take them away. I once detained a guy for making a bomb threat agianst the theater as he drove by. I just ordered him to remain where he was until CID showed up. His 1SG came by and asked him what was going on, the guy told him, he looked at me then he looked back at the kid and shook his head then walked off. CID said it was the easiest apprehension they ever made.

The kicker of the thing, an MP was in front of me and my wife in line at the theater and he did nothing.


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## 6811

Denton said:


> I guess I am just a jerk. It is my opinion that a right shouldn't have to be explained. Especially considering one of the rights that are spelled out in the Bill of Rights. If someone doesn't know they have the right to remain silent, they are already on my bad side by being ignorant of the nation's history. Grrrrrrrr...


aha... but you forgot about the "new americans" who has not yet read the bill of rights. they would not know they have 5A... come to think of it I wouldn't be able to talk to them because I do not habla. (we cant call them Illegal aliens in my part of town, they are called "the new Americans")


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## PrepperLite

dsdmmat said:


> Didn't the SCotUS just decide (in the past two years) that remaining silent without declaring you want to use the 5th can be used as a sign of guilt? IIRC they also decided that if an Officer unintentionally violated the 4th amendment because he didn't know he was performing an illegal search it was still a legal search?


Yes they did:

Salinas v. Texas (5th Amendment) 

Heien v. North Carolina (4th Amendment)


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## Prepared One

6811 said:


> aha... but you forgot about the "new americans" who has not yet read the bill of rights. they would not know they have 5A... come to think of it I wouldn't be able to talk to them because I do not habla. (we cant call them Illegal aliens in my part of town, they are called "the new Americans")


Yea. Mabe you can't but I can. I don't care what color you put on the pig. It's still a damn pig. They are Illegal Alians everyone!


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## MisterMills357

Never consent to a search, if you do then you forfeit any protection under the Fourth Amendment. If you are searched after refusing, you have a good court case.
Never be afraid to go to court, the legal system has beaten America over the head, with intimidation. The Bill Of Rights is for the American citizen, not the government.
It amazes me how many people don't even understand that much. I am not here to preach, but you do not have a right to remain silent, per-se.
You have this, "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself". It works out to, you can keep your mouth shut, or remain silent.

Understanding the finer points, will help you in court.:joyous:


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## Jakthesoldier

I'll try to cover everything people said to me here.

No, I am not a peace officer. Said that already, but reiterating it here because some missed it.

The names of the posts where civilian LEO had jurisdiction are as follows: all of them. If you commit a crime off post, you fall to civilian jurisdiction. They clear with jag first "usually" but perform the arrest on post themselves, AND the subsequent search.

Every person you arrest gets searched, right? 
Every person stopped at a DUI checkpoint who doesn't flex their rights, and some who do get searched, right?

Every person you "pat down" is a search too. Idgaf what the SCOTT'S says, it's a search. Might be over the clothes, but I've seen plenty of cops make drug arrests from "Pat downs" searching for weapons.

And no, I'm not a cop, so I "don't know". But I grew up with cops, my grandfather was Sheriffs flying posse, I have been around cops in close quarters my entire life, and I now work for cops, and with cops.

And I love talking to people. And listening. And I keep a mental file of the number of good arrests and crooked conduct. The ratio is not good.


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## SARGE7402

Every person you arrest gets searched, right?

Nope. Serve a Virginia Uniform Summons or release someone on a VUS and no one gets search. And yeah Security Guard a VUS is an arrest and PR bond hearing all in one.

Too bad you don't understand a bit about the justice system. Sounds like a wanna be that is spouting sour grapes. Wonder why you don't qualify for peace officer status


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## Jakthesoldier

SARGE7402 said:


> Every person you arrest gets searched, right?
> 
> Nope. Serve a Virginia Uniform Summons or release someone on a VUS and no one gets search. And yeah Security Guard a VUS is an arrest and PR bond hearing all in one.
> 
> Too bad you don't understand a bit about the justice system. Sounds like a wanna be that is spouting sour grapes. Wonder why you don't qualify for peace officer status


Ok, technically yes, you can arrest and PR bond someone and never even get them out of the car, so I over spoke. I don't know about Virginia, or a lot of states, but I do know that this is the case in Texas. 
I mean actual cuffed and stuffed arrests. Sorry for not clarifying.

And I don't want to become a PO. Never have. 
I do not possess the fortitude to stand up to a corrupt system. I admit it.

I will also acknowledge that many police are "corrupt" by my definition simply because there is no one to go to. How does a cop report a cop? Unless it's a major incident that makes the news, who will listen? And just like the military, if you can't trust the guy on your left and right, you can't do your job.

Now let me go one step further.

I acknowledge that MOST cops are good people.
But I'm going to qualify that by saying being a good person, and a good cop, are not the same thing. Same as good person and good soldier, or mechanic, or security officer, or whatever.

By the way, I am an officer, not a guard. Yes, there is a difference.

And as for the classes, I have been asked to come in for SAPD and Bexar county Sheriff's Dep. to teach and "advanced" practical first aid class, and help create aid kits for patrol cars. Stuff like tourniquets, sucking chest wounds, GSWs, lacerations, broken limbs, head wounds, etc. Also, ironically, searching wounded suspects in a way that prevents further injury.


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## Boss Dog

WOW! Took me quite a while to read and get through all the pixx & vinegar. 

A former deputy friend once told me (he also got tired of the 'junk' and decide to go into something else); 
"Never consent to a search of your vehicle. If they have no probable cause and don't find anything, they can get into trouble. Therefore they are likely to plant something in the vehicle." I figure he ought to know. This is the good-ol-boy network in the south.

I appreciate and respect police and for the most part will cooperate BUT, I will never consent to a search. Nothing good can come from it. If they're doing their job and believe they have probable cause then a warrant should already be in the works.


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## SARGE7402

Jakthesoldier said:


> Ok, technically yes, you can arrest and PR bond someone and never even get them out of the car, so I over spoke. I don't know about Virginia, or a lot of states, but I do know that this is the case in Texas.
> I mean actual cuffed and stuffed arrests. Sorry for not clarifying.
> 
> And I don't want to become a PO. Never have.
> I do not possess the fortitude to stand up to a corrupt system. I admit it.
> 
> I will also acknowledge that many police are "corrupt" by my definition simply because there is no one to go to. How does a cop report a cop? Unless it's a major incident that makes the news, who will listen? And just like the military, if you can't trust the guy on your left and right, you can't do your job.
> 
> Now let me go one step further.
> 
> I acknowledge that MOST cops are good people.
> But I'm going to qualify that by saying being a good person, and a good cop, are not the same thing. Same as good person and good soldier, or mechanic, or security officer, or whatever.
> 
> By the way, I am an officer, not a guard. Yes, there is a difference.
> 
> And as for the classes, I have been asked to come in for SAPD and Bexar county Sheriff's Dep. to teach and "advanced" practical first aid class, and help create aid kits for patrol cars. Stuff like tourniquets, sucking chest wounds, GSWs, lacerations, broken limbs, head wounds, etc. Also, ironically, searching wounded suspects in a way that prevents further injury.


Like a lot of folks that complain about corrupt police, you are not sufficiently motivated to join and work towards correcting the problem. Just another vocal whiiner.

Second it is obvious that you have never attempted to look at the general orders laid down for most police and sheriff's departments. If you had you would see that there are clear and concise guidelines for officers and civilians like yourself for getting what you call corruption issues before the command structure. Since it seems that you've not taken the time to do that nor to file a complaint, it goes back to not caring enough to do the right thing.

Third - touchy about our title are we? Seems you have no problems equating all cops as corrupt or bad but let someone not call you by your proper title and you get your draws all bunched up in a wad.

Fourth - If you're not a professional medical type and an instructor, I sure hope you have a good liability insurance policy. Teach someone that is not a recognized standard - military, civilian or EMT - and some one uses that instruction and the person gets hurt more or god forbid dies, they'll come looking at the "instructor" that taught that information. Not a recognized instructor, they'll look and see about taking what you own as compensation.

But hey keep talking a good story, ought to get at least one of your size 11 hoofs stuck in your oral orafice.


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## Jakthesoldier

Sarge I swear I think you are going senile.
you have participated in multiple threads where I have alluded to being a certified medical laboratory technician, surgical research technician specializing in damage control and resuscitation. 

I'm not touchy, but if you are going to joke, joke about the right thing. I do not guard anything. I secure the Sierra out of it.

Go on ahead over to the thread I posted a couple days ago called "hard to watch" after you watch the whole thing go ahead and get back to me.


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## Jakthesoldier

Oh, and I wear size 9


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## Denton

And I am the senile one.
That's OK. I own four books, read them over and over and am always surprised by their endings.


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## Prepared One

I eliminated the reading thing. All I have is books with Pictures in them. They are delivered every week in a plain umarked box wrapped in plain brown paper. Ahhh Modern conveniences.


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## NotTooProudToHide

Pretty good video on this. You get it straight from a Senior CID Detective.


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## SARGE7402

Jakthesoldier said:


> Sarge I swear I think you are going senile.
> you have participated in multiple threads where I have alluded to being a certified medical laboratory technician, surgical research technician specializing in damage control and resuscitation.
> 
> I'm not touchy, but if you are going to joke, joke about the right thing. I do not guard anything. I secure the Sierra out of it.
> 
> Go on ahead over to the thread I posted a couple days ago called "hard to watch" after you watch the whole thing go ahead and get back to me.


Hey great if you are these things. I don't read all the mostly bogus stuff posted here so don't get upset if I don't know about your history.

Don't know what joke you're referring to was dead serious about what I said.

And why should I watch something you've posted and waste my time.

Have a nice day


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