# The Bushcrafter Fantasy



## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I'm not trying to wind anyone up here, this is just an opinion.

So OK, civilization ends. You grab your trusty BOB and head to the hills. You don't have anything pre-cached, but you are well armed and have mad bushcraft skills. You set out some snares, forage for wild roots and berries, craft a primitive shelter, start a nice fire with a bow drill, and live out your days in Gillagan's Island comfort. Yay!

I mean, really?

Let's look at reality for a second. Survivorman has mad bushcraft skills. He goes out, goes native for awhile, then gets rescued a week later.... starving, cold, and exhausted. He is in great shape, knows how to do almost everything with almost nothing, and still almost dies every time.

Now let's add in a few thousand people with high tech weapons. See, they have the same idea you have and will be on that same mountain, drinking that same water and hunting the same game. They too think they are a combination of Rambo and Bear Grylls and will somehow overcome impossible odds and make it.

SMH

If you are in an area with a lot of wilderness and a low population density, yeah, you might just pull it off. But if you live near a major population center, well, not so much. Your plan should be to get to a better area, not just head to the same hills that everyone else is going to see as the ideal retreat.

In my opinion, most "bushcraft" type skills aren't worth the time it takes to learn them. There are exceptions: basic fire making, snares, and a few other skills are certainly worth having. I spent a lot of my youth learning and practicing these skills. My preps are designed so I _never _have to rely on my primitive skill set. If your plan is depend on them right off the bat, you might want to rethink your plans.

Other than surviving a plane crash in the Andes or something (which isn't that realistic), I would like to hear a realistic scenario where good bushcraft would make a meaningful difference.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Basic bush craft will certainly help you choose a better sleeping place out of the wind.

I've had enough hiking, orienteering, and camping rough experience, even some basic knowledge of how to find food, to be able to travel well enough to get by for a week but I wouldn't like to try to live off the land even without competing with a bunch of other Rambos. I'd have to get to my backup location 170 miles away for any chance of long term survival.

I even had a TV show approach me last year (they called twice) (primarily because of what I do for a living) about being kind of a "Survivor Man" for a new reality series but unlike the producers of the show I understand how hard it is and that I'm starting to get a little long in the tooth to have the energy to "build anything out of nothing".

I like my sofa and refrigerator too much now days I guess.

Another thought,,,, If the survivor guy on tv is so out of contact with any sort of rescue in many of his episodes how does the camera guy manage to survive with fresh batteries for the camera?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Study the stories of the Longhunters of the 1700's. They could subsist in the wilderness for months at a time.
But I seriously doubt anyone today could rise to the level of Daniel Boone. That was a rare breed then, and extinct now.

There are always people on boards such as this who think they are going to "bug out" to "the woods" and "live off the land." They are simply going to die.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I think there are few here who would bug out to nowhere. If one were to bug out, it needs to be to a destination.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Diver said:


> I think there are few here who would bug out to nowhere. If one were to bug out, it needs to be to a destination.


That's why I fully intend to bug in and defend the immediate area with my group and hopefully neighbors. A lot of my preps are based around surveillance around the property including long range wireless alarms (which the deer trip regularly) and night vision.

We would see stragglers out of Atlanta eventually in a SHTF situation. Probably not at first but eventually.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Really uneducated statement in the OP. If the poster had bush skills no such statement would be posted.

You are going to set out snares but bushcraft skills for reading tracks aren't necessary for you. Your chances of getting some meat will be mighty slim.

Don't need bushcraft skills of reading the terrain to decide which is the best route to travel.

Don't need bushcraft skills to ID poison oak or poison ivy.

Don't need bushcraft skills to ID a good campsite.

Don't need bushcraft skill to tell by the sun how much time before sundown so when to make camp.

And the list can go on for pages.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Competing with hundreds perhaps thousands of Rambo wamtabes sounds crazy. Being away from others groups or individuals as much as possible will help. More resources to be had by you.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> Really uneducated statement in the OP. If the poster had bush skills no such statement would be posted.
> 
> You are going to set out snares but bushcraft skills for reading tracks aren't necessary for you. Your chances of getting some meat will be mighty slim.
> 
> ...


It depends on what you consider bushcraft skills. I've seen intelligent fairly athletic people choose the worst camping sites imaginable, sometimes just laying their bag out 15 feet away in a different location would have made a world of difference in how well they slept... lack of bush craft experience

On a 28 day survival course in Colorado years ago it was incredible how easily the instructor moved down the hill, I even pointed it out to the other guys. We were all younger and probably in better shape than the instructor was but he used half the energy we did working through the brush and later in deep snow.

I can't recall him ever "post holing" through the snow requiring digging out but we sure fell through the top crust of snow with regularity. And trust me, it can be a lot of work when you punch through getting out. One guy dropped through so that only his head and neck could be seen above the snow. After we carefully dug him out he said he could feel that he had been standing on a fallen tree.

That instructor through his bush craft skills was much better than we were at seeing the better path and I for one had lots of cross country hiking experience in the mountains but he sure had me beat at picking a path.


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## keith9365 (Apr 23, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Study the stories of the Longhunters of the 1700's. They could subsist in the wilderness for months at a time.
> But I seriously doubt anyone today could rise to the level of Daniel Boone. That was a rare breed then, and extinct now.
> 
> There are always people on boards such as this who think they are going to "bug out" to "the woods" and "live off the land." They are simply going to die.


Years later when order is restored, hikers will find the bones of all the rambo types who ran off to the hills. The "Long hunters" carried pack mule trains of supplies and set up base camps that they hunted from. Boone was constantly in debt for the supplies he took on his trips.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Lots of "Rambo Wannabee's" will be found dead of lead poisoning, at least out of the ones that get found.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

TV shows are TV shows. I am not heading out to the bush not going native. We will live as our family did when they settled this land and survived with no electric or any of the modern-day tools. We will in some ways be better off than they were. We have the luxury of hide sight. We have been able to look back at what they did how they did it. The learning curve will be different. We also know some things they did not. They may have known how to do things but really had no idea why it worked. We will mix their old skills and todays knowledge.
We will not be wondering around in the woods eating nuts and berries looking for a place to hold up. That is why we prep it is also why we do put a lot of work/resources in to security. It is a big part of why we are here. With out security your chances a slim.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

The "Bushcrafter Fantasy" isn't about knowing wilderness survival skills. It's about the bigger picture. It's the idea that everyone will be able to head for the hills and Daniel Boon their way to a safe, happy life.

It takes years and years to develop a robust set of bushcraft skills. My point is that having these skills won't guarantee your survival. I'm talking bang for your buck here. How much time should one devote to a strategy that is almost certainly doomed to fail? That's the issue at hand here.

As far as me personally being "ignorant" and unskilled, whateva. You don't know me. You have no idea what skills I have or don't have. Attacking me personally because you don't agree with what I'm saying is probably not a great idea.

I'm not saying that bushcraft skills are worthless. If that's what you read into what I said, then perhaps you should read my original post again. I'm just saying that, for anyone living in a high population density area, "going native" shouldn't be your only plan. As a practical matter, it's simply not a viable strategy for most of us.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Post #12 sure doesn't match #1.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

I use my bushcrafting skills all the time when hiking and camping, which I do a lot. So having them when SHTF is just another tool in the prepper pack (although it's in my head).

I plan to bug in as long as possible but in the event I have to leave I have a few spots picked out that very few people (I believe) will go to. If I do have to live out in the bush I will do it as long as possible, but with the purpose of finding like minded people that want to start rebuilding things. I know people will be dangerous once SHTF and food/water is not available but I don't think everyone will be. Some will know if we want to survive after whatever SHTF event happens we will have to work together and rebuild as best we can.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I once had a neighbor that was into bush crafting and some such nonsense. He didn't know sheet from shinola about camping and surviving in the wilderness but damn, he could sure shape his bushes. It was a good craft but it didn't make sense to me. Here is one of his crafted bushes in his yard. I don't think he cared much for me :nonchalance:;


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> I use my bushcrafting skills all the time when hiking and camping, which I do a lot. So having them when SHTF is just another tool in the prepper pack (although it's in my head).
> 
> I plan to bug in as long as possible but in the event I have to leave I have a few spots picked out that very few people (I believe) will go to. If I do have to live out in the bush I will do it as long as possible, but with the purpose of finding like minded people that want to start rebuilding things. I know people will be dangerous once SHTF and food/water is not available but I don't think everyone will be. Some will know if we want to survive after whatever SHTF event happens we will have to work together and rebuild as best we can.


First let me say that while I prepare I suspect that we're looking at less than a 30% chance of a real long term (more than 3 months) SHTF striking the country during our lifetime. Having said that I also strongly suspect that if there is no effective civil authority people in densely populated areas will have a low survival rate bushcraft skills or not.

First they must survive the trip out of the city, then the trip to where they hope to find sanctuary. Next they have to make peace with their new neighbors and since the new neighbors are looking for resources too things will be rather crowded in the national parks and other unclaimed territory. And finely they will have to create food and shelter for long term survival, both of which would be in seriously short supply.

Personally I may be willing to give my food to some stray little girl but if I do then I'm taking food from my family which means I like most others will harden ourselves and deny resources to anybody new in the area. Not just for the resources they may ask for today, but to protect the resources from theft tonight. I suspect that strangers will be chased away by the locals almost everywhere, even from the abandoned building 1/2 mile away from the farm. It's the only way to protect the property from theft in the night.

Maybe out in Wyoming where there is lots of BLM land but in the Eastern half of the US and on the West Coast I think people in the cities had best plan on holing up in place bushcraft skills or not.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

A little tale for those who forsee running off to the woods and living off the land--
I hunt on a private property of 4000 acres.
There have been days when I am there alone, hunting, and see nothing but a few crows and maybe a squirrel or two.. 
We have deer and turkeys--- as lot of turkeys.
There are deer feeders and food plots.
Picture that with a bunch of folks running around shooting at anything, that they think, is moving, on public land.

It ain't gonna be realistic.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

From what I read of most hunter-gatherer societies, the majority of calories usually come from the gathering. There are exceptions, and the hunted food was often more highly *valued*, but the gathering was both more reliable and gave more calories.

If a modern person were to follow that trend...well, you better hope the SHTF at the right time of year. Sure you can find cattails right now, but chopping them out of the ice would be more calories than they were worth. Most people I know who brag on their bushcraft mostly mean hunting and fishing ... gathering is really a lot like work, so not as much fun to practice.

p.s. Slippy, your neighbor would probably like you better if you quit hunting his elephants.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

There is not enough food in the wild of any kind to support half the number of people we have to feed in todays world. Without farming a lot of people are going to die


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

I won't be bugging out, the province I live in does not have enough federal land, and things like winter weather and a lack of wildlife makes it a bad idea.

My plan is to bug in.

If and when I have a bug out plan, it will involve bugging in at a better location than I currently live.

IMO, it takes a community to survive. It takes agriculture in my backyard, a job, and a market within travel distance, to survive.

Shooting a deer will make me a very happy hunter, but I won't base my survival on it.

Knowing how to start a fire with a flint is cool and fun, but I've started more fires with a cup of gasoline and a match that can be thrown 10feet. Wanna bet who can have their fire going first?


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

I have great uncles that took free land after WWII. They had gardens, hunted and trapped and fished. Was it enough? Maybe. But they also worked lumber camps in the winter. 

Not sure what it would translate into today's dollars, but they still needed about $500 per year to buy things like salt, ammo, gasoline, etc. 

Having a bumper crop of potatoes, and a root cellar to put them into might mean that you will never starve, but you still need to have access to an economy and market if you want things like salt, ammo, gasoline, etc.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Ok, so what I'm hearing thus far in this thread is that while bushcraft skills are important unless you actually are already living on a spread of land that you can grow food on you're chances aren't that great. Does that sound right?

While I doubt civil order on a huge scale will dissolve during my lifetime (another 30 years) I doubt people without property will make it if they don't live where there is at least enough land (2 acres of decedent farming land per adult) will make it. 

Does that sound right?.... Short answers please...


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

double post, blame the FireBall whiskey


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

I don't expect to see anything like that either, so this is just a theoretical answer to the question ... I doubt the limiting factor will be food production. I think if you take people as used to being Taken Care Of as Americans are and just turn off the tap, the problems are going to be about violence and lack of skills to produce food from the land without modern supports, rather than how many the land Could support if used optimally.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Without modern support such as GNA seeds I suspect there isn't enough arable land to support 230 million people.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

I can see your premise about these fantasy survivalists dreaming about making it in the woods with their bushcraft gear being an utter failure. Most of these folks want to attempt doing so because they have the latest, greatest survival doodad. Still in the package. Yes, they will die.

But please do not overlook bushcraft! It is a highly valuable skillset that is of great benefit to preppers! Having the knowledge is one thing. Getting out and practicing what you preach is another. Doing something with nothing is better than doing nothing at all. This is the reason that prepping and survivalist go together. Adapt and overcome. Learn how to make natural cordage. Learn how to craft and hang an axe handle. Learn to forage. As HuntingHawk said, I could go on for pages about this skill set. It's a no brainer.

My plan is not to bug out to the woods. I hope to stay put in my rural paradise and homestead. Knowledge of bushcraft will come in handy.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

FoolAmI said:


> Ok, so what I'm hearing thus far in this thread is that while bushcraft skills are important unless you actually are already living on a spread of land that you can grow food on you're chances aren't that great. Does that sound right?
> 
> While I doubt civil order on a huge scale will dissolve during my lifetime (another 30 years) I doubt people without property will make it if they don't live where there is at least enough land (2 acres of decedent farming land per adult) will make it.
> 
> Does that sound right?.... Short answers please...


Sounds about right to me, but there is another side.

There are lots of places where they grow way more food than they can possibly eat. For example, say you approach some small town in Kansas that has thousands of acres under cultivation, but no fuel. Bushcraft won't get you in. There are a lot of skills one can learn that would be in demand, however.

Know how to make biodiesel? Come on in. What, you're a blacksmith or woodworker, or medical specialist or engineer? Yeah, we can use you. My point being... there are lots of skills that would be a better investment of your time to learn.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

I think a lot of it would have to do with what SHTF scenario took place. I live in pretty highly populated area but it is a short distance into the woods. If things were to break down I don't think people would start killing each other in the streets (at least not at first). I think people would try to help each other. Look at all the people that pitched in and helped as much as they could during 9/11. Even though I live in a populated spot I still live with EMT's, firemen and other first responders. I think it is built into a lot of them to help when they can. I don't think they will forsake their family to help others but many will help where they can. Also, when you see footage of war torn places the general populace aren't gunning each other down in the streets. People are still out and about trying to gather what they need to survive. Personally I am very sick of people and everyone being out for themselves but as humans we have this weird quality that makes us help others when we see they need it (I know not everyone but many). Unfortunately if something really bad does happen the first to die will be old, sick and small children. Those will be mouths that no longer need to be fed leaving more for the rest of us. And as I said in a previous post I think people will get together and try to rebuild communities. In those communities there will be soldiers, builders, medical personnel, gardeners, fishermen and so on. Things won't go back to the way they are now but things will stable out and begin to get a little better. IMO.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

FoolAmI said:


> Ok, so what I'm hearing thus far in this thread is that while bushcraft skills are important unless you actually are already living on a spread of land that you can grow food on you're chances aren't that great. Does that sound right?
> 
> While I doubt civil order on a huge scale will dissolve during my lifetime (another 30 years) I doubt people without property will make it if they don't live where there is at least enough land (2 acres of decedent farming land per adult) will make it.
> 
> Does that sound right?.... Short answers please...


I will agree, but only if you are recognizing that employment combined with purchasing power can replace gardens and land. In the depression, some people moved to the country, others went to where the jobs were.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> I can see your premise about these fantasy survivalists dreaming about making it in the woods with their bushcraft gear being an utter failure. Most of these folks want to attempt doing so because they have the latest, greatest survival doodad. Still in the package. Yes, they will die.
> 
> But please do not overlook bushcraft! It is a highly valuable skillset that is of great benefit to preppers! Having the knowledge is one thing. Getting out and practicing what you preach is another. Doing something with nothing is better than doing nothing at all. This is the reason that prepping and survivalist go together. Adapt and overcome. Learn how to make natural cordage. Learn how to craft and hang an axe handle. Learn to forage. As HuntingHawk said, I could go on for pages about this skill set. It's a no brainer.


No doubt wilderness skills are required to do well in the wilderness. I never said bushcraft skills are useless.

Maybe I should have called it the "Daniel Boone Fantasy."

I spent many years tramping around in the mountains of NE Pa. I've made and slept in snow caves, stayed in huts made of pine branches, started fires with bow drills, I make a mean primitive crawdaddy trap, and can do and have done a lot of stuff that aren't part of my plan today. It's great to know how to do stuff like that. It's fun and can give you some confidence.

It's an interesting topic, I think, and there are no wrong answers. I'm just looking for different points of view.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> I think a lot of it would have to do with what SHTF scenario took place. I live in pretty highly populated area but it is a short distance into the woods. If things were to break down I don't think people would start killing each other in the streets (at least not at first). I think people would try to help each other. Look at all the people that pitched in and helped as much as they could during 9/11. Even though I live in a populated spot I still live with EMT's, firemen and other first responders. I think it is built into a lot of them to help when they can. I don't think they will forsake their family to help others but many will help where they can. Also, when you see footage of war torn places the general populace aren't gunning each other down in the streets. People are still out and about trying to gather what they need to survive. Personally I am very sick of people and everyone being out for themselves but as humans we have this weird quality that makes us help others when we see they need it (I know not everyone but many). Unfortunately if something really bad does happen the first to die will be old, sick and small children. Those will be mouths that no longer need to be fed leaving more for the rest of us. And as I said in a previous post I think people will get together and try to rebuild communities. In those communities there will be soldiers, builders, medical personnel, gardeners, fishermen and so on. Things won't go back to the way they are now but things will stable out and begin to get a little better. IMO.


I agree. In most cases where the local authorities have abandoned their post(highly unlikely), it won't be long before you see community meetings at churches, hockey arenas, community halls, etc. New gov - although potentially very disorganized and inexperienced - will start to form almost immediately.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

There are lots of places where they grow way more food than they can possibly eat. For example, say you approach some small town in Kansas that has thousands of acres under cultivation, but no fuel. Bushcraft won't get you in. There are a lot of skills one can learn that would be in demand, however.


So don't need bushcraft skills to do the wonderings to encounter such places?


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I agree with this too.

But ultimately, it will come down to an area's ability to produce enough food to feed it's people.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Yep. The french revolution wouldn't have happened if they had enough bread for everyone.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Sounds like piss poor planning. I have six months of food put away. Probably alittle more. Water is not an issue due to my rain catch system & averaging over 50" per year where I live. I've about 50 5gal buckets for container growing mostly vegetables like bell peppers & varieties of tomatoes. So my stored supplies are easily extended. And where I live there is a looooong growing season. Infact, could do two harvests per year like the commercial farmers around here do. Infact, it was mid January I got the last of the bell peppers from the seeds I started last March.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> I think a lot of it would have to do with what SHTF scenario took place. I live in pretty highly populated area but it is a short distance into the woods. If things were to break down I don't think people would start killing each other in the streets (at least not at first). I think people would try to help each other. Look at all the people that pitched in and helped as much as they could during 9/11. Even though I live in a populated spot I still live with EMT's, firemen and other first responders. I think it is built into a lot of them to help when they can. I don't think they will forsake their family to help others but many will help where they can. Also, when you see footage of war torn places the general populace aren't gunning each other down in the streets. People are still out and about trying to gather what they need to survive. Personally I am very sick of people and everyone being out for themselves but as humans we have this weird quality that makes us help others when we see they need it (I know not everyone but many). Unfortunately if something really bad does happen the first to die will be old, sick and small children. Those will be mouths that no longer need to be fed leaving more for the rest of us. And as I said in a previous post I think people will get together and try to rebuild communities. In those communities there will be soldiers, builders, medical personnel, gardeners, fishermen and so on. Things won't go back to the way they are now but things will stable out and begin to get a little better. IMO.


I'm willing to help my neighbors and friends who I think can support themselves.... but not those who I suspect will become a burden on my family.

And kids are different, It's not their fault if their parents didn't put the effort into "buying the insurance" of not preparing for themselves and their family. Still. While I'm willing to give up my life for a child I am not interested in risking my family for an adult who didn't put the effort in to survive but instead chose to spend the cash on a longer trip to the beach. This will make for some hard choices that I hopefully will never have to make. Keep in mind that in Afghanistan often males would send their women and children out to retrieve a weapon because they knew we would not shoot.

I'm not stocking a ton of shells for defense against a major attack or Zombie attack but I will defend what my family requires to survive and hopefully build a better life for the kids.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

HuntingHawk said:


> So don't need bushcraft skills to do the wonderings to encounter such places?


Maybe, maybe not.

If the master plan is to go live off the land on some mountain, it's a moot point, right?

if, on the other hand, you have given it some thought and come to realistic conclusions, you would at least know to head towards such an area. What skills would you really need in order to make it there? Speaking for myself, I will have shelter in my pack, so no need to make primitive shelters. I will have redundant ways to make fire, so no need to be rubbing sticks together. The list goes on, but I wouldn't think one would need to spend the hundreds of hours needed to obtain and maintain such skills.

I'm always fascinated by the show Survivor. Those people are usually city slickers with NO bushcraft skills at all. They always manage to make a fire. They always make a livable shelter. No, I'm not saying the show Survivor is the perfect real world example, but it does tell us something, right? What it tells me is a machete and a bag of rice make all the difference! LOL

I say again... *wilderness skills aren't worthless*. It's the whole "Daniel Boone" fantasy that, for the vast majority of us, is unworkable.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

i have to say that there are some misconceptions about bushcrafting. Everyone always seems to go back to the "rubbing 2 sticks together" skill. There is so much more to it than that. A bow drill is a bare bones survival skill. And yes, I think you should know hoe to do it. Bushcrafters are gonna start a fire with flint and steel or a ferro rod. Me? I know how to do all of those things. But I also carry a BIC. Once again, knowledge is power. I wont ever be lacking the skills to make fire. Even after the bic runs dry.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Has anybody here actually tried growing food on a mountain? I grew up in Black Mountain NC and trust me, No body but the kids with their pot tries to grow crops on a steep hillside.... and you need crops to survive.,,, there are simply too many people in the US cities to live on the deer and possums (yes, they really are greasy and with gritty textured meat). Bears, while are larger are pretty greasy too unless you get them in the Spring time when they are lean and tough but the meat has better flavor than a possum. Interested in eating a Blue Jay bird???? I've tried one,,, tiny bit of meat and tough to get. Crows are better.

You need the ability to grow your food in a place that won't be bothered as the crop ripens.

Bushcraft skills will help but you will require a few acres of decent land with good sun and water.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

"The horror the horror..."
It's going to be a horrible disaster in itself.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

I remember a TV series a number of years ago where they took families and couples out into the woods to see if they could manage to survive. Cabins and basic animals were provided. The people had to plant gardens and put up food, care for the livestock, and cut enough firewood to last a winter. At the end of the season they were judged to see if any of them could have made it. Guess what, none of them passed. It was an interesting glimpse into what pioneer living was like and very, very interesting to observe the amazing development of responsibility and maturity in the children as they had to assume a lot of responsibility for the family to survive. The poor kids then went back to "normal" living where they had no purpose and were pretty depressed. Anyway, even with a ready made cabin and all the incredible hard work they put in, these families would not have survived the winter. Either they had not put up enough food or else not enough firewood.

Unless your BOL is already well stocked and you have created your own infrastructure, survival is going to be pretty tough. Just imaging you live in the NE and SHTF. You bug out to the mountains and then get hit with the winter of 2014-15. Do you really think you are going to survive in the bush? Really? Sub zero temps days on end. Niagara Falls is frozen. 6 feet of snow. How do you hunt in that? You are going to need a ton of fuel just to keep warm and melt snow for water. Get wet just once and you are done, and it's not hard to get wet just from the exertion of cutting wood. Add your family to the picture for extra bodies to provide for. It would be a pretty tough situation.

Say you are in Florida and you bug out to the boonies. How long will it be before you have Dengue fever? That's going to knock your socks off. I've heard people pray to die from the pain. They don't call it "bone-break-fever" for nothing. Then you get hit by a hurricane and your tent is gone. Again, unless you already have a well stocked and protected BOL, it's going to be pretty rough.

Say you are in the SW and bug out into the desert. Lots of native food if you know where to find it, but once it hits 110 in the shade, water is going to be a huge issue. Dehydration, heat exhaustion, sunstroke. Then torrential monsoon rains, wind, and flash floods. Without some really good shelter that is high and protected (like a cave that of course no one else knows is there), survival will be precarious.

It's one thing to try a boonie bug out in nice camping weather, but when the weather turns and the game is gone, well, then the game is over. Not trying to be a kill joy, but I hope and pray that when SHTF, I will be able to remain in my well provisioned home, and if a true BO is necessary I hope I can make it to my cabin where I know I could survive. BUT.... only if someone hasn't taken over the cabin before I get there. Bugging out is dicey business. Once you leave, you may never be able to come back, as your original location and supplies will be possibly taken over. or at least ransacked.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

There is lot more to learn from animals than how to fight.
The better off will be adaptable and minimalist. The worst will be the ones trying to set up "campground city" and trying to alter nature instead of alter their selves.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

RNprepper said:


> I remember a TV series a number of years ago where they took families and couples out into the woods to see if they could manage to survive. Cabins and basic animals were provided. The people had to plant gardens and put up food, care for the livestock, and cut enough firewood to last a winter. At the end of the season they were judged to see if any of them could have made it. Guess what, none of them passed. It was an interesting glimpse into what pioneer living was like and very, very interesting to observe the amazing development of responsibility and maturity in the children as they had to assume a lot of responsibility for the family to survive. The poor kids then went back to "normal" living where they had no purpose and were pretty depressed. Anyway, even with a ready made cabin and all the incredible hard work they put in, these families would not have survived the winter. Either they had not put up enough food or else not enough firewood.
> 
> Unless your BOL is already well stocked and you have created your own infrastructure, survival is going to be pretty tough. Just imaging you live in the NE and SHTF. You bug out to the mountains and then get hit with the winter of 2014-15. Do you really think you are going to survive in the bush? Really? Sub zero temps days on end. Niagara Falls is frozen. 6 feet of snow. How do you hunt in that? You are going to need a ton of fuel just to keep warm and melt snow for water. Get wet just once and you are done, and it's not hard to get wet just from the exertion of cutting wood. Add your family to the picture for extra bodies to provide for. It would be a pretty tough situation.
> 
> ...


And everyone makes fun of me for living in CA because our gun laws suck. :staff: If SHTF and we go back into the 1800's at least it rarely gets below 70 degrees here. I can grow crops almost year round. I'm sure I'll get flamed for posting this but all I'm trying to say is even though places have disadvantages they can turn into advantages depending on the situation.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

The biggest advantage indigenous people have is a genetic selection for survival. Smaller body size, body fat distribution, ability to conserve water by sweating less, caloric conservation with the "thrifty gene", adaptation to local diets, tough wide feet, good eyesight, and especially immune systems that are accustomed to bacterial loads that would kill most of us. If there is a worldwide collapse, the indigenous people of so called "primitive" cultures will be the real survivors, because nothing will change for them. Their infrastructure of food procurement, shelter, and clothing will remain intact. Wilderness survival for those of us who have lived with the benefits of clean water, no parasites, an abundance of food, and medical care that has preserved the survival of those who are NOT among the fittest will be disadvantages. I would guess that those who best match the physical features and genetic makeup of the original indigenous populations in any particular area will be best suited to survive in that environment. All the bushcraft in the world will not change the fact that the best suited human for survival in the desert (for example) may be 4'10", lean, has the "thrifty gene", and sweats very little. The 6'3", 230# high metabolic guy is going to need 2-3X the resources of someone who is coincidentally more physically suited genetically, if not by natural selection.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Here is a link to the series. I really did enjoy it. very insightful, especially to the family dynamics..

PBS - Frontier House: The Project


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

RNprepper said:


> The biggest advantage indigenous people have is a genetic selection for survival. Smaller body size, body fat distribution, ability to conserve water by sweating less, caloric conservation with the "thrifty gene", adaptation to local diets, tough wide feet, good eyesight, and especially immune systems that are accustomed to bacterial loads that would kill most of us. If there is a worldwide collapse, the indigenous people of so called "primitive" cultures will be the real survivors, because nothing will change for them. Their infrastructure of food procurement, shelter, and clothing will remain intact. Wilderness survival for those of us who have lived with the benefits of clean water, no parasites, an abundance of food, and medical care that has preserved the survival of those who are NOT among the fittest will be disadvantages. I would guess that those who best match the physical features and genetic makeup of the original indigenous populations in any particular area will be best suited to survive in that environment. All the bushcraft in the world will not change the fact that the best suited human for survival in the desert (for example) may be 4'10", lean, has the "thrifty gene", and sweats very little. The 6'3", 230# high metabolic guy is going to need 2-3X the resources of someone who is coincidentally more physically suited genetically, if not by natural selection.


Why you picking on me!?! I'm 6'4" and 210.

Just kidding. All of that makes a lot of sense. Good post!


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

RNprepper said:


> Here is a link to the series. I really did enjoy it. very insightful, especially to the family dynamics..


Loved that series!

But let's try to cast this whole Daniel Boone thing in a more positive light. Let's say that bugging out to the woods is your best option, for whatever reason. What can be done to stack the deck in your favor?

First of all, have a realistic expectation. Understand that you will have a long row to hoe. Don't just pick a spot on the map and say, "yes, I will go there." Dudes and dudettes, you have to know the turf... in detail. Know what is growing where and be ripe when. Know the probable and not so probable routes of advance. Be there and see there.. a lot. 4 seasons, all weather. Yes it can suck now to make it suck less IF. To do this, you have to go walk it, live it, eat it... own it. Ain't no shortcuts here.

Establish caches. Have more stuff in the area you pwn baby. Have the ability to hunker down and ride it out. Let the Rambos kill each other, then rise from the ashes like the phoenix. This takes careful planning and considerable foresight, but you're a prepper damn it, you have an advantage. Make it count.

Don't get married to any one location. You can't predict the future, don't convince yourself that you can. Be mobile, agile, and rubbery in your flexibility. Don't make concrete plans, make general guidelines. Have a backup for your backup for your backup. Cache everything everywhere. Prepping can be a HUGE advantage, don't waste it.

A Hopi elder once said, "The time of the lone wolf is over, it's time to gather." There is strength in numbers. Believe that.

Animals can't rebuild a society. Don't abandon yourself and become what you hate. There's no going back from some things. Think it through _before it happens_ and decide how far you can go and still remain true to self... then go not one step farther, no matter what. "Death before dishonor" isn't a bumper sticker, it's a moral obligtion.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

The more skills you have the better your chances of survival. And the more you have planned for the most likely scenarios the better off you will be for the unlikely ones. Very few things could cause me to abandon my home. A wild fire would be one. Hurricane, well I've a shipping container as a storm shelter. They are good for 150mph winds. With framing & paneling the inside with OSB it should be good for up to 200mph & its well stocked.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> Don't just pick a spot on the map and say, "yes, I will go there." Dudes and dudettes, you have to know the turf... in detail. Know what is growing where and be ripe when. Know the probable and not so probable routes of advance. Be there and see there.. a lot. 4 seasons, all weather. Yes it can suck now to make it suck less IF. To do this, you have to go walk it, live it, eat it... own it. Ain't no shortcuts here.
> 
> Establish caches. Have more stuff in the area you pwn baby. Have the ability to hunker down and ride it out. Let the Rambos kill each other, then rise from the ashes like the phoenix. This takes careful planning and considerable foresight, but you're a prepper damn it, you have an advantage. Make it count.


That's why I hike it at least twice a week.

Funny you should mention a Phoenix rising from the ashes, I have a tattoo of that.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Weapons and ammo stash started out small it would have been no big deal to take it and move along at one time. Over the years and as it became a part of prepping the stash grew. Around the time of the Brady bill some of us I was one became concerned that some day we may lose the right to own any fire arms. It was then I realized there were to many in one place. As the children aged plans were made to move weapons and ammo around and have a system where no one person knew where everything was.
Forget the government for a bit . It just makes no sense to have all the weapon and ammo you own in one place. I am sure worst case SHTF some of them may not be recovered but it would not madder much, likely to still be there when things settle down. If for some reason we were on the move they are in a place to be gotten to.
No one plan is prefect you will adjust fire as need depending on what happens . The main thing is that you are thinking about it and doing something.
We have weapons I have not seen sense the day they were acquired. But if ever needed they are where they should be.
Our focus now is more on growing food , storing it followed by wood planting more trees than it is weapons and ammo. Some times you check the box off and move on to the next task.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

I haven't figured out yet why I would leave a perfectly good home where all my surviving stuff is, to go live under a rock.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Study the stories of the Longhunters of the 1700's. They could subsist in the wilderness for months at a time.
> But I seriously doubt anyone today could rise to the level of Daniel Boone. That was a rare breed then, and extinct now.
> 
> There are always people on boards such as this who think they are going to "bug out" to "the woods" and "live off the land." They are simply going to die.


One thing is certain given the scenarios we plan for. Many people will die no matter how well prepared or their skill level. I have a plan and a place to bug out but it is last resort. I plan to hold up as long as I can. ( I can go as long as 6 months right now ) However, I live in a major city so I am thinking I will be forced out eventually. Do I like my odds? On foot? Not really. Driving? Better. Either way, I sure as hell will try.

I would rather watch a little football and have a few beers. LOL


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Having a bush craft skill set is fine, having bush craft living as a plan A? not so fine. I'm sure the average person could get out into the wilds, yet would they be able make the transition from modern to primitive smoothly? So for the average person going native would more than likely be a plan E or plan F, which is basically a plan of last resort. 

It may take a lifetime to learn the ins and outs of primitive living, it may even take several lifetimes. For me there is a romantic quality to bush craft that grabs the imagination. I also think there is a reality to nature that will take a life for making a simple mistake. Mother nature is not a do over kind of lady and the list of things that could kill a person in the wild is long.

So as a skill set, bush craft is fine, as a survival strategy for surviving more than a week or two in the wild? You may want to rethink it.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> I'm not trying to wind anyone up here, this is just an opinion.
> 
> So OK, civilization ends. You grab your trusty BOB and head to the hills. You don't have anything pre-cached, but you are well armed and have mad bushcraft skills. You set out some snares, forage for wild roots and berries, craft a primitive shelter, start a nice fire with a bow drill, and live out your days in Gillagan's Island comfort. Yay!
> 
> ...


Prepadoodle here is the difference between me and you. I have enough bush craft skills to feel comfortable in my abilities that I can survive in the wilderness when the SHTF. If you have to escape into the woods you are assured bush craft skills will not help you survive. That attitude alone will get a lot of people killed. I agree no bush craft skills will guarantee survival but the more you know the better you odds will be.

I agree too that the illusion that running to the woods all your needs will be filled. Unless you are prepared and practice your skills, most people will be in for a rude awaking. Living in the woods will be a very hard life. But then again the more you know the easier it will be.

But for you to say that most bush craft skills are not worth the time to learn shows your ignorance. Knowledge is never a waste of time.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I think the general consensus is, if you are not already living off the land and honing your day to day skills, you probably have very little chance being successful after a real SHTF situation.

I'll take me chances at a well stocked and prepared Slippy Lodge, Pikes at the ready.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

If I was reading Prep right, the argument was not 'it's a useless thing to know' but 'for the time commitment to master it, there are better choices of skills'. To which I'd agree; but since this kind of scenario is low probability imo, if learning bushcraft brings you fulfillment and it's how you want to spend some of your hours, go for it.

One important factor that's easily overlooked: Developing a challenging, multifaceted skill that starts with the assumption that you may need to rely on You and calling 911 won't solve every problem; that's valuable no matter what the particular skill. Learning to deal with adversity, to work through discomfort, to make good decisions on the fly, to prepare yourself for most things and make do when necessary; Those are hugely valuable intangibles that can be learned in many fields. And those intangibles help us survive and prosper whether the problem is planet-wide or just you in a Life Happens moment.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Aren't we in agreement that bugging out is best done when the forest provides vast resources, and low human population density?

Jmo, if the forest provides limited resources, and high human population density, then anyone going there will be facing a very hostile deadly environment where ambush is just as likely as starvation.

Furthermore, I would caution you not to place the bush crafters onto a higher moral pedestal. Too many might want to shoot me at 400 yrds when there is very little motivation to shoot someone at that range in a community.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> Loved that series!
> 
> But let's try to cast this whole Daniel Boone thing in a more positive light. Let's say that bugging out to the woods is your best option, for whatever reason. What can be done to stack the deck in your favor?
> 
> ...


Yo will be thrust immediately into hunter/gatherer existence. This will mean lots of travel on foot to follow game and seasonal harvests. You will set up temporary seasonal camps and move between them during the year. When the acorns are ready in the foothills, that's where you will be - harvesting and grinding. When the mesquite beans are ready in the lower areas, that's where you will be. When the agave roots are ready to harvest and roast, you camp will be set up in that area. It will take a community, more or less, to survive, as well as an intimate knowledge of the environment and food resources. You can kill the deer, but someone at camp has to be there to dry the meat and cure the hide while you are out hunting for more. The fit and strong will be the hunters/defenders of the tribe while the less able will be home cooking, grinding, curing, making clothes, and keeping the kids from falling into the fire.

Setting up a permanent, agriculture based village means stronger permanent homes, irrigation for fields, and basically the homesteading skills you already have built in to your present situation.
Being able to stay put gives you a huge survival advantage. Very few people will be able to survive a hunter-gatherer existence for long. Those who do will need both the skills AND the physical ability to keep up. Of course life expectancy will plummet back to about 45 years which is what is typical for lots of cultures without modern medicine. (Probably will be less, as there will be more childbirth mortality and more disease due to our immune systems not having gone through generations of selection.)

And here is something to think about. When I lived in Papua New Guinea, I watched tiny thin people hoist huge sacks of coffee onto their backs and then take off jogging 20 miles to town. This was over rocks and rough pathways - barefoot. They would run back and make 2 trips a day! Unbelievable if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. Their feet were huge and wide, with soles as thick and hard as leather. They did not even look like our feet and would never be able to wear a commercially made show. (Maybe close to yours, Saquatch!) JUst take that single physical feature - their feet. Over generations they had developed perfect feet for their lifestyle, and going barefoot every day since birth developed built in soles.

Once the soles of your boots wear out, Survivor-man, you are doomed. Keeping your feet well shod will be a big priority post SHTF. Making shoes is only one example of survival skills/bush craft that will be essential. People from modern societies will be starting way behind the curve genetically. Hopefully we will have information resources that will help us catch up, but the physical part of it will be pretty daunting for most.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Why survive in the forest when you can thrive on a homestead?


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Might also add that besides hunter-gatherer, you will also be a raider. It will be a war out there. This is what hunter-gatherers do - establish territory to defend and kill intruders who try to raid for supplies. I cannot think of an area of the world where this is not true. South Pacific, Amazon, Asia, Africa, North American tribes - it's kill or be killed. If you have food, be sure that others will want it. Likewise, if surviving a winter means raiding another settlement, you will do it.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

RE: The Bushcrafter Fantasy
Yes they seem to barely make it but that is part of the show. Just watching some of the episode and it is easy to see that just a few things would make their situation much better. 
#1 A fire making tool some times it seems the spend half their time trying to use busk skills to make a fire.
#2 A 22lr many of the times it is not for lack of animals but the fact they have to come up with some primitive weapon to use where they basically almost have to get right upon the game. 
#3 A tent and a sleeping bag alone would take care of half their problems in trying to come up with a shelter that they seem to spend half the day on. 
#4 They have no choice in the area they are in, where as most people would know the area. 
That is the real difference between the TV show and the woodsmen of the 1600's Danial Boone had a gun and the tools he would need to survive. 
No I don't think it would be a way to live but I am saying a prepared person would do a lot better in the same areas the an expert just relying on bush skills.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

tinkerhell said:


> Why survive in the forest when you can thrive on a homestead?


I think people are discussing contingency not intention.
It is good they are prepared for any contingency. You should be prepared to live with the squirrels when someone finds your homestead and looking for a few days indoors.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

RN
You bring up an excellent point about barefoot. I posted on barefoot preps over a year ago and people slammed me for being the idiot (that Mrs Slippy thinks) I am...
But seriously, I go barefoot as often as I can and have been doing it for most of my lifetime. I'm not Cody Lundin or anything like that but my size 12's feel a hell of a lot better when they are not trundled up in socks and store bought leather shoes made in China. 
Simple flip/flops in 25 degree or 100 degree work for me. Toughen your feet and prepare them for a wide range of elements and you;ll be better for it.
Facts about going barefoot
Living Barefoot | The Barefoot Book


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Slippy said:


> RN
> You bring up an excellent point about barefoot. I posted on barefoot preps over a year ago and people slammed me for being the idiot (that Mrs Slippy thinks) I am...
> But seriously, I go barefoot as often as I can and have been doing it for most of my lifetime. I'm not Cody Lundin or anything like that but my size 12's feel a hell of a lot better when they are not trundled up in socks and store bought leather shoes made in China.
> Simple flip/flops in 25 degree or 100 degree work for me. Toughen your feet and prepare them for a wide range of elements and you;ll be better for it.
> ...


As they say, "No hoof, no horse."


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I enjoy bush craft as a hobby. One that gets me out in nature eating around a camp fire and sleeping in the great out doors. I enjoy a good hike. I like a hot tea at the top of the crest. I wouldn't want it to be all I have in my life. 

In a shtf I plan on buggin in for the first few months where I have everything. A full tank of gas in my truck will get me to a remote bug out or a friends house about 4 hrs North on back roads. Unless something so drastic is going on that its leave or die I'm staying but have provisions set up to be as ready as I can if I need to bail. 

Bushcraft is a hobby one I love cherish and enjoy. But it's a hobby. One that could save my life. But sustain it indefinitely!? Possible but not likely with a family of 4 to feed.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Prapadoodle, In a wandering round about way I think we have shown agreement with you that while BushCraft skills may be very useful they are probably not going to assure a person's survival long term. We have moved too far away from the skillset of our ancestors and the time and effort to acquire a solid practical knowledge of these skills will take lots of study and long term practice. 

May God help those who plan to sprint out into the woods.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

FoolAmI said:


> Prapadoodle, In a wandering round about way I think we have shown agreement with you that while BushCraft skills may be very useful they are probably not going to assure a person's survival long term. We have moved too far away from the skillset of our ancestors and the time and effort to acquire a solid practical knowledge of these skills will take lots of study and long term practice.
> 
> May God help those who plan to sprint out into the woods.


This site attracts a lot of people who are new to the game. It was never my intention to bash bushcraft skills, as I have said several times, but rather to give the beginning prepper _my opinion_ on the relative importance of developing such skills.

Part of it comes down to time management. Nobody can do everything or learn everything all at once. I'm just suggesting that people think things through and not buy into the whole "anyone can easily become Daniel Boone" mentality.

There a few here who probably have the skills and mindset to pull it off. Very few. I salute them!

As I said, I should have made this the 'Daniel Boone Fantasy" thread. I think my poor choice of title got this all going in a somewhat wonky direction at first.

Bushcraft is more than "rubbing 2 sticks together," a whole lot more. I say "rubbing 2 sticks together" because it amuses me, nothing more. In reality, the term "bushcraft" can be applied to ANY wilderness skill from hunting, fishing and trapping, to tanning hides to primitive living skills to orienteering to well, anything you can do in the wilderness. That's a lot of stuff.

If we have caused anyone to rethink their bug out strategy, even if that just means they planned in a little greater depth, then the thread has done its job. Maybe we saved a life or two, who knows?


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> If we have caused anyone to rethink their bug out strategy, even if that just means they planned in a little greater depth, then the thread has done its job. Maybe we saved a life or two, who knows?


I was thinking the same thing when I wrote my last post. I suspect Bugging-in is almost always going to be the better choice.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

TacticalCanuck said:


> I enjoy bush craft as a hobby. One that gets me out in nature eating around a camp fire and sleeping in the great out doors. I enjoy a good hike. I like a hot tea at the top of the crest. I wouldn't want it to be all I have in my life.
> 
> In a shtf I plan on buggin in for the first few months where I have everything. A full tank of gas in my truck will get me to a remote bug out or a friends house about 4 hrs North on back roads. Unless something so drastic is going on that its leave or die I'm staying but have provisions set up to be as ready as I can if I need to bail.
> 
> Bushcraft is a hobby one I love cherish and enjoy. But it's a hobby. One that could save my life. But sustain it indefinitely!? Possible but not likely with a family of 4 to feed.


Agree. I could handle an "extended camping trip" but to sustain a family in the wilderness with no infrastructure in place? Competing with every other Jeremiah Johnson out there? It would be very hard over the long haul. That being said, I find great pleasure in learning new survival skills and teaching them to my kids. We did a lot of map and compass work last summer at the cabin. This year I think we will work on new ways of fire staring and also building bush shelters. It never hurts to keep learning, for sure.

Last February, my daughter and I hiked in to our cabin (forest service roads closed due to snow.) When we got there, we couldn't get the water on. All our firewood was wet and it was COLD. Daughter was a little scared until I showed her how to find dry tinder and kindling. Once we got a fire going in the stove, we started melting snow and boiling/straining the water for drinking. A nice challenge to show her that even when unexpected stuff happens, there are always options. That's how kids get the confidence that they really can take care of themselves and deal with the unexpected. Now if the two drunk bubba guys we encountered several miles out had tried to follow us, they would have met with Mama Bear and a 40. Glad we didn't have to experience THAT kind of challenge, but I sure ran through some scenarios!


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

FoolAmI said:


> I was thinking the same thing when I wrote my last post. I suspect Bugging-in is almost always going to be the better choice.


I firmly believe that God led my wife and I here 20 years ago from the one big city that is South Florida. Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade Counties are just one big 80 mile long city.
Now, we live on a small place on a dead end dirt road six miles outside a one stoplight town.
We call it Answered Prayers Farm.
And we are not bugging out anywhere, we are already here.
All those people who refuse to leave the big city and are at each others throats on a normal day will become monsters if anything disrupts their flow of food, water, or cable TV.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

I think there is a difference between planning and fantasy. I also feel that people who first option is to bugout into the woods are no more delusional as someone that feels that because there BOL is in a remote area think they are safe. Every plan needs an option. Life never happens like we plan it.

If someone want’s what you have and you don’t have the people, knowledge or the means to defend your BOL you are going to be in trouble. I think that some people feel their BOL is so safe they never see a need for other options. They’re the ones that will find themselves in the woods unprepared and in trouble? But if you plan and are able to take the necessary equipment and knowledge then surviving in the wood is very doable. The Native Americans survived thousands of years with stone tools and knowledge before Daniel showed up.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

"I have enough bush craft skills to feel comfortable in my abilities that I can survive in the wilderness when the SHTF."

Yes. There is no comparison for people to who it is a second language. The bush person is comfortable and best to avoid other humans really.

"..for you shall be in league with the stones of the field and the beasts of the field shall be at peace with thee.."
Job 5:23

The rest we are back to "the horror.."


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Tennessee said:


> I think there is a difference between planning and fantasy. I also feel that people who first option is to bugout into the woods are no more delusional as someone that feels that because there BOL is in a remote area they are safe. Every plan needs an option. Life never happens like we plan it.
> 
> If someone want's what you have and you don't have the people, knowledge or the means to defend your BOL you are going to be in trouble. I think that some people feel their BOL is so safe they never see a need for other options. They're the ones that will find themselves in the woods unprepared and in trouble? But if you plan and are able to take the necessary equipment and knowledge then surviving in the wood is very doable. The Native Americans survived thousands of years with stone tools and knowledge before Daniel showed up.


That has been a question in my mind from the beginning. What happens if we need to bug out from the BOL? I have BOBs at _both_ our home AND the BOL. A forest fire, for example, could be reason to leave the BOL. In that case, even if we hole up near a Red Cross shelter, we will have our own supplies, some food, hot soup and drinks, games to play, and can generally take care of ourselves while we take advantage of whatever other assistance might be available. All options need to be on the table at all times.

Of course the Native Americans survived very well. Look at the incredible stone/shell bead necklaces and pottery that were produced a thousand years ago by the Anasazi. BUT.. they had their community and societal infrastructure intact. Artwork is a sign of thriving culture - not just a surviving one. They had one of the most advanced civilizations in America. However, extended drought ended the society. No rain, no grass, no game, no crops. Time to move on (bug out) and assimilate with others in other areas.

But as stated before, the ones who have a chance at wilderness survival with limited resources will be those who are in excellent physical condition and and able to travel long distances on foot. They will have a genetic predisposition toward caloric conservation (ie: thrifty gene), and will not need to eat as much as others. In cold climates they will have a body fat distribution that conserves heat. In hot regions they will not be the ones are drenched with sweat any time the temps are over 90 degrees. They will have good eyesight and their digestive systems will adapt to local foods without distress. Their immune systems will be very strong. They will also have a strong skill set.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

A strong community group will always be more resilient and adaptable than an individual. Something as simple as a sprained ankle could be the death of a lone Daniel Boone. There really is strength in numbers.

I don't consider the various First Nations to be indicative of how things would shake out in modern times. Yeah, they thrived (in many cases) with minimal technology, but didn't face today's population pressures or competition for resources. In those areas where there was competition, wars are raiding were commonplace.

I think it's interesting to note that many of the nomadic tribes were lead by men, while women held the power and property rights in many tribes that practiced agriculture. 

Many northeastern tribes also formed confederations in order to co-exist in relative peace. (Of course, many defined "peace" as driving everyone not in the confederation out of their areas) I think this idea of confederated groups would be the norm at some point after a major collapse.

To me, the best strategy seems to be banding together for mutual support and defense. Since I live in a fairly high population density area, my approach was to join a neighborhood watch and slowly make my way into a leadership position. It wasn't that hard to then guide the group into a more "prepper" direction by expanding our role from crime prevention to a general, "What would our role be in a long term situation, do you think we should have some food and medical supplies stockpiled?"

Basically, my prepper group doesn't know they are my prepper group. It's all quite hush hush, you understand, strictly need to know basis. OPSEC and all.... loose lips sink ships! OMG, I now realize we need a navy!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I have read two biographies on Daniel Boone. Assuming they are accurate (books from the 1950's) he rarely traveled more than a day or two ahead of the group. He usually had a few adult males in the area, sometimes a few days behind but close enough to give assistance if he got hurt while exploring. He was very charismatic and able to lead other men on his long travels.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Don't care if you have a large fortified position with plenty of people. You still need /want patrols out. Those on patrol you really really want to have good bushcraft skills.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

I always got a belly laugh out of PBS's Frontier-Pioneer-Victorian House stuff.

They always populated them with street liberals - I wonder what they were trying to prove but my guess would be to convince libs they won't survive without Big Daddy Gov.

I saw Jeremiah Johnson in the theater and thought it was the life for me. I'd already lived through a SHTF scenario and knew about cattail rhizome and koontie bread so I figured it would be a breeze.

In fact it was - I did pretty good at my "bol" for nearly a year. Rarely lacked sustenance.

Fly in the ointment was that after about 6 months I started going nuts. What I hear from bugouts is the belief that having a "community" in the woods will somehow prevent that. I tend to believe that like "Lord of the Flies" what you would have instead of one crazy man living in a cabin you would have a group of crazy people. The strong would kill off the weak, and in time any surviving kids would all look like the strongest male.

I gave up arguing with bugouts long ago - let them go to their woodland paradises - but prepare to deal with them as bandits in 6 months.

If you can't keep your community functioning in reduced circumstances bugging out to the woods won't work out any better.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

The more I see these posts, the more I remember the frontiersmen and the ancient cultures such as the celts. Also the third world countries where bushcraft is everyday life not "survival" truly using your skillet and improving it is how you make it work. If you study and practice you will be fine.
People talk about densely populated areas as though the majority won't be dead inside a month. Those with the sense to be elsewhere will survive. Roving bandits will be a reality, but that is why having tactical knowledge is a must. 

NEVER base your understanding of anything on what you saw on a reality TV series. They are 100% fake, scripted, and bulls***


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

they'll be bandits in less than 6 weeks, many in 6 days, actually. 6 months after shtf, nearly everyone will be dead, of starvation, disease, fighting, fires, etc.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

if shtf, good bushcraft would mean staying underground during daylight hours, and leaving no sign of your presence. Any cooking would need to be done with a paraffin "stove", down in a hole in the ground, so as to minimize scent as an issue. You could not cook where you "live". Best to have non-cook food stashed, at least a few month's worth. Peanut butter, instant oatmeal, dried fruit, TVP, jerky, honey, hard chocolate, powdered milk. Having to dig up that stuff, once per year, replace it, and consume the orignal over the next few months, is a pita, tho.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

eferred said:


> they'll be bandits in less than 6 weeks, many in 6 days, actually. 6 months after shtf, nearly everyone will be dead, of starvation, disease, fighting, fires, etc.


Inside a month they'll be dying of exposure.

I spent months sleeping on the deck under a poncho with my 16 atr. I was in top shape with months of hard training and it nearly killed my youngazz.

Civilians would be stretcher cases inside a week especially with the stress of wondering when muzzle flashes will be your alarm clock at 1am.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

Paladin Press (and a few others) have sold literally a million books and vids about how to make silencers. You can bet that on average, those things were viewed by 2 people. The truly dangerous people are going to have sound suppressors, taken from the dead.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

chopping and shooting noises are going to sound like the dinner bell to looters, for miles around. Leaving cut wood, fire ashes, anything, really for enemies to notice, is going to get them hanging around trying to snipe you. Having to whittle/saw instead of chop, having to smear mud on all cut surfaces, having to camo everything, keep everything in the center of a thicket, never send up smoke or show light at night, that's going to be an entirely different sort of "bushcrafting'.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I've got all I need at my place. Water, fuel, food, security.


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## eferred (Mar 15, 2015)

well, you think that you do. Can you prevent a guy aproaching to within 1/4 mile at night, then sniping you the next day? it takes millions of $ spent per year and dozens of men to do that.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Study the stories of the Longhunters of the 1700's. They could subsist in the wilderness for months at a time.
> But I seriously doubt anyone today could rise to the level of Daniel Boone. That was a rare breed then, and extinct now.
> 
> There are always people on boards such as this who think they are going to "bug out" to "the woods" and "live off the land." They are simply going to die.


My grandfather was a Guide working in New Brunswick Canada... His brother trapped for a living and worked in the woods.

I learn from both of them...

I could bug out into the woods..I am not going to do that because I have 3 kids under 6... If I bug out into the wilderness things are going to have to be really really really bad


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

my last concern will be snipers... I doubt a sniper is going to head 20 miles back into the woods to shoot me


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