# Big Batteries



## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

hello everyone.
I am new at this and I am in the beginning stages of buying land so that we can build our new home. We plan on adding solar panels and maybe a windmill so that we can generate our own electricity. I am curious if anyone has used these kinds of batteries and how well they work for storing solar energy. I came across them and seem to be priced pretty low, but I don't want to buy unless I know that they will work for this application.

DC260 12 Deep Cycle AGM Battery | eBay

Anyone have experience using something like this? 
Any info would be appreciated! :glasses:


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't know squat about those batteries.

I am more concerned with your overall plan. 

Do you plan on buying batteries before you buy your land or do you have the land picked out? 

Are you planning on building a structure from scratch or do you have a set of working architect plans/blue prints that you will use? What about Building Codes and Waste Removal? 

Just curious.


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

We have not purchased the plot of land yet, but we have decided where we want to buy and we are actively looking now. We want to buy the land 1st, before the end of this year, and start building in the spring. We have a builder chosen who will supply us with blue prints (we have already talked to him about what we want, including an underground room/bunker) and his company has a number of different designs/plans to work with. We want to be finished building before winter 2017 and we want to have the solar built into the original construction of the home. As far as water & waste we will have our own well dug and a septic system.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Not sure the difference in this battery and the 12 v deep cycles as used on boats and RVs. Having bought quite a few over the years they tend to zonk out in around a year..or about the time the warranty runs out. The nice fellow at the battery place said it would be better to buy two golf cart batteries from Sams and jumper them together to come up with 12 volts since the golf cart batteries are Six volts. They supposed survive the recharging cycle better. So maybe you get one of resident elctro magnetic injuneers to figure out how it would stack up against an apporpriate number of Sams batteries figuring two to a set and pricing differences etc. 
http://www.samsclub.com/sams/energizer-golf-cart-battery-group-size-gc2/prod6750008.ip


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Buy golf cart batteries for a solar setup. They are all the rage.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

While those may or may not be good batteries a general way to consider battery capacity and durability claims is to look at the battery weight (170 lbs) verses the rated output. Those batteries are very heavy for their output claim so they are probably very solid durable batteries.

I've got to agree with Slippy's post about the fact that you may be going about your wind and solar planning backwards.

First get a realistic idea about your power needs, are you going to be grid tied or totally off grid? It you have the option of being grid tied it's often much more realistic to tie to the grid and wire some of the circuits so that they can be run by either grid or your power system. Energizing an entire small modern home can easily run over $20,000 (after tax breaks) but having some power backup for a few critical circuits and possibly selling some power back to the utility can cost a lot less.

Hang out on this site for a while and learn. Northern Arizona Wind & Sun Solar Forum 
Subscribe to Home Power magazine. Renewable Energy & Efficiency Technologies | Home Power Magazine

Do not purchase any equipment until you have a complete plan.

My home is solar and propane powered, my business on the grid. Off grid solar requires so much attention to the system you've got to think of it as a hobby that may some day pay for itself (or maybe not) but takes about 2 hours a month and some lifestyle adjustments such as washing clothes on sunny days and conserving during times of low energy output. Of course if you've got plenty of cash you can put in a massive (spelled expensive) battery bank and then you have a lot more flexibility in your energy use. But keep in mind the batteries will only last 5-10 years before you need to replace them. Adding a small electric-start generator to supplement the battery bank (inverter will start it when needed) will go a long way towards making life more pleasant if you have several days of poor weather.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Lovetheroad75 said:


> As far as water & waste we will have our own well dug and a septic system.


For R/E use get a Grundfos soft start submersible pump. It will have a much smaller start up amperage draw than a regular well pump and is very durable.


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

Thank you all for the insight and recommendations. I would LOVE to go completely off-grid if possible; not sure if that is completely realistic or not but I sure would like to do so!


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Lovetheroad75 said:


> I would LOVE to go completely off-grid if possible; not sure if that is completely realistic or not but I sure would like to do so!


Most of us would too but as you say, it ain't always possible. Such an off-grid system is very costly with lots of recurring charges, like replacing those expensive batteries every so often.

If you are not independently wealthy & see going full alternative energy is not possible, then you still have some things you can do with a new construction to help you along the way. I suggest wiring your house as one would do for a natural gas generator, where you have a separate electric panel for the essential items... such as heater, maybe one ac, refrigerator/freezer, well pump, & some lights & receptacles. Doing so with new constructions adds little cost but is rather expensive to modify an existing home. This panel could then later be powered by a solar system or even a fuel based generator.

As John says, I highly suggest getting a Grundfos flex well pump. They can run on either ac or dc, with a wide range of voltages. Normal pumps can't do so & if fed the wrong voltage, can get harmed. If this gets the wrong voltage it either just pumps less or shuts down... but doesn't get hurt. You can easily have a switch box where it can be fed both ac & dc & whichever is available will run the pump. I don't have a full solar system but do have enough 280w solar panels to run the pump on direct dc... straight from the panels with no batteries, inverters, etc. This system guarantees the well works during a grid down scenario, but just not at night or maybe heavy cloud cover. I can live with that.


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

Well, I am planning on winning the Powerball jackpot this weekend, so I will be independently wealthy very soon!!:tango_face_wink:


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

Well, I did NOT win the Powerball this weekend so I guess that I will have to get back to planning again! 
:vs_laugh:


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

A thought on battery life. For backups buy them dry with separate electrolyte (sulfuric acid). Shelf life won't start until you fill them


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Lovetheroad75 said:


> Well, I am planning on winning the Powerball jackpot this weekend, so I will be independently wealthy very soon!!:tango_face_wink:


Smart thinking on that. A lot of folks down in da hood are counting on Powerball for their retirement plan.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Mad Trapper said:


> A thought on battery life. For backups buy them dry with separate electrolyte (sulfuric acid). Shelf life won't start until you fill them


Wrong. Lead acid and AGM batteries start aging the day the lead plates are made and being exposed to air will just let the lead plates scale over a bit thus aging them. For ultimate battery life keep them at least 90% charged but once a month or so discharge them down to about 70% and give them a good charge to stir the electrolyte.

Good quality batteries if super well cared for will last 8-10 years but rarely will you see one go over 12 years. Iron Edison batteries (very expensive) can last over 30 years of daily cycling.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Wrong. Lead acid and AGM batteries start aging the day the lead plates are made and being exposed to air will just let the lead plates scale over a bit thus aging them. For ultimate battery life keep them at least 90% charged but once a month or so discharge them down to about 70% and give them a good charge to stir the electrolyte.
> 
> Good quality batteries if super well cared for will last 8-10 years but rarely will you see one go over 12 years. Iron Edison batteries (very expensive) can last over 30 years of daily cycling.


???

Years ago I worked in an old time garage. They had some quite old dry lead-acid batteries on the shelf and the plates inside were still pretty shiny. I brought more than one, cheap, and they lasted great. The practice was to store them dry then add electrolyte and charge right before sale. No PITA charge/discharge to keep them usable.


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

So I was just checking out my e-bay account and they lowered the price on those batteries; I can't find anything even close to it. 
Just in case someone else out there is interested.

DC260-12 Deep-Cycle AGM Battery Group 8D | eBay


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

you can not eat solar panels


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

Even with a good BBQ sauce??? 
:vs_laugh:


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> you can not eat solar panels


True but get enough and you can cook with them.


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## jdbushcraft (Mar 26, 2015)

Maine-Marine said:


> you can not eat solar panels


Can't eat a house or gun, or a 5 gallon bucket, or a sleeping bag or a compass... Are we just listing things you can't eat or was there a point?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Got a question MM. 
If you were trying to keep a low profile and avoid confrontation (grey man approach) is it better to use wood/coal to cook your long term storage food or is it better to stay inside and cook your food in the comfort and security of your kitchen keeping all the cooking odors in the house?

The smell of wood smoke and cooking food will attract visitors from a long distance. @Maine-Marine

I realize that a large solar system isn't practical for many people but if you're trying to keep a low profile solar can be a huge benefit.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Lovetheroad75 said:


> So I was just checking out my e-bay account and they lowered the price on those batteries; I can't find anything even close to it.
> Just in case someone else out there is interested.
> 
> DC260-12 Deep-Cycle AGM Battery Group 8D | eBay


Same battery on Amazon is over $1100 after shipping but no customer reviews.
https://www.amazon.com/Fullriver-Group-Sealed-Battery-DC260-12/dp/B00QSJ4UKS

I'll post the battery to a solar website I play on and see if any of the battery experts over there have an opinion but I can see a 7 yr limited warranty and a claimed life of 1000 cycles but they don't show what DOD they consider a cycle.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Got a question MM.
> If you were trying to keep a low profile and avoid confrontation (grey man approach) is it better to use wood/coal to cook your long term storage food or is it better to stay inside and cook your food in the comfort and security of your kitchen keeping all the cooking odors in the house?
> 
> The smell of wood smoke and cooking food will attract visitors from a long distance. @Maine-Marine
> ...


There will not be that many zombie motorcycle riders in the middle of December in Pennsylvania

AND - there is no way you will heat a home and cook using solar in winter.. unless you plan on spending mucho dollars... Heating using electric uses a lot of juice

AS TOO " The smell of wood smoke and cooking food will attract visitors from a long distance." a fly can smell rotten meat at about 7 KM = 4.5 miles. 
From How Far Can Flies Smell Food? - Science Questions, from the Naked Scientists

So - if you burn dry wood there will be little smoke and as too cooking food...unless you plan on eating cold food it will not matter if it is cooked on wood, gas, or electric


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

To me, solar panels and batteries are just more stuff to break. It may work for a while but, eventually you'll be needing parts and none to be found in days of chaos and shutdown. Better to plan for primitive living in, no electric and very limited alternative power until it too crashes. 

A quality system will be expensive and while I have limited funds, it may be easily within your reach. You must decide if is worth the cost and effort.

Don't forget the rewiring for low voltage and low voltage appliances and tools.


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## Sonya (Oct 20, 2016)

somewhat OT but op are you planning to incorporate passive cooling design elements into the home? My dream off-grid home would be an earth berm house, it would make cooling a non issue and heating so much easier, plus it would be storm proof, virtually fire proof, and act as an underground bunker in the event of nukes.


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

we are planning on having a geothermal system in the house, whenever it happens. Seems like we have been planning on this FOREVER!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Just heard back from two of the solar guys. These guys do large systems so they've never used that model of FullRiver battery but they said the FullRiver makes a good battery, not the best but a solid battery and GreyBar (the seller) is a huge FullRiver dealer to the price is probably legit although I'm surprised at the low price and super low shipping cost. If that battery size will work for you I'd go with them. @Lovetheroad75

Keep I'm mind that those batteries weigh 175 lbs but for a low maintance AGM it sounds like a heck of a deal. If properly charged and cycled they'll probably last 6-9 years. Offer $210 per battery and I bet they accept the bid.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> AND - there is no way you will heat a home and cook using solar in winter.. unless you plan on spending mucho dollars... Heating using electric uses a lot of juice
> So - if you burn dry wood there will be little smoke and as too cooking food...unless you plan on eating cold food it will not matter if it is cooked on wood, gas, or electric


MM, This morning I woke up to a warm house thanks to my solar powered mini-split ; yes, I'll need to supplement it with wood when it gets colder but until then I'll enjoy the warm house and when it gets colder I'll burn a lot less.

I started with a 200 watt solar system years ago and it ran my chest freezer, later added a few panels and another battery (490 watts in panels with 3 batteries) and it ran my chest freezer, and either a microwave, toaster oven, hot plate, or small window AC unit. That simple system cost about $1500 and still works today down at my business. No repairs or replaced parts except a new set of batteries after about 4 years (I started with cheap AutoZone batteries).

As time and money permitted I've since built a larger system. 5060 watts in panels with a 25 yr warranty, Schletter ground mount also with a 25 yr warranty. Conext 6800 watt inverter (12,000 watt surge) with a 10 yr warranty along with a Conext 80-600 controller feeding a 790 amp/hr 48v battery bank (which will last about 8-11 years).

This system runs my well pump, mini-split AC and heat pump, all of my washers, freezers, refrigerators, lights, and is currently powering the computer I'm typing on now. The system is somewhat hardened against lightening or other nasty electrical things.

Nothing is perfectly durable but when the area was without power for 20 hours a while back I didn't even realize it as I sat in air conditioned comfort cooking my supper.

Even a 100 watt solar panel with a cheap controller like this https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Watts...7523933&sr=1-16&keywords=100+watt+solar+panel would be a huge help in a long term grid down emergency.


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

John Galt ("Who are you anyway??) :vs_laugh: I know, I'm a little corny!
If you don't mind my asking, about how much did your solar set up cost you and how long ago did you do it?


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

And thank you for the info on the batteries. I Googled Graybar Electric and they are big, Fortune 500 and their e-bay reviews are very good so I am pretty certain that they can be trusted. Thanks again!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I asked the seller the date on the batteries. These batteries were made Nov 2014 and were recharged and tested last August. The seller then offered to sell me a set of 4 for $200 each. A distributor for that battery brand who is on the solar site I mentioned earlier said at $229 and $10 shipping they were worth playing with so at $200 an even better deal. @Lovetheroad75

But as I've mentioned before don't buy batteries until you've already decided and are ready to order the other parts needed. Define your loads, design your system, then look at the batteries. Four of these batteries would probably be good for a little cabin, it would take about 12 or 16 of them to comfortably power a modern energy efficient home with gas appliances. And since they are 12v 16 of them would require four strings of four batteries each. That many strings makes for uneven battery charging and shorter battery life. I run two 48v 395 amp strings (790amp total) and I see little imbalances in that, four strings would be much worse.

The best layout is one string of large 2v or 4v batteries in series making 48v.

People who are seriously interested in solar should check out this site
Recent Discussions ? northernarizona-windandsun


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

Thank you very much for the info; it sounds like they are a pretty good deal, but I guess that it would be too early for me to take advantage. 
Hopefully someone else can use them.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Lovetheroad75 said:


> Thank you very much for the info; it sounds like they are a pretty good deal, but I guess that it would be too early for me to take advantage.
> Hopefully someone else can use them.


I was slightly tempted because I've been building up materials to install solar at my shop. The price is right but I've got several projects that need to be done first.


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## Lovetheroad75 (Oct 10, 2016)

So I was told that there is a way to charge small batteries using nothing but salt water! I didn't believe it but then I found some stuff online about it, there are even some videos of people doing it. Does this really work? Has anyone on this board done this themselves? If so, I would be very interested in hearing how it went!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Yes, You can get a small electrical charge using salt and some basic acids like citric acid but it is a tiny charge and probably not worth considering as a way to make electricity.


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## Damskienet (Feb 12, 2017)

very interesting


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

For what its worth....

I used 8D batteries on my sail boat that was hooked up to my engine, windmill Genset and several large solar panels. I got about 5-6 years out of them with them being used on a daily basis and primarily being charged by solar and wind while I was living on my boat. The AGM batteries lasted longer and were much less maintenance than the regular lead acid ones but they also cost about double too. The deeper you discharge them and the more often you deeply discharge them to quicker they will go bad on you and need to be replaced.


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