# SHTF and the elderly



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

I'm sure that many of us have a relative in a Nursing or Assisted living facility. What is your plan for them if the S really Hits hard? In my case, we have a relative that is 90 and lives in a nursing home in town. She is in pretty good shape for her age but has mild dementia and needs a walker. I will find a way to get her back here. But what about the other people there? Many do not have family that seems to care about them. Many are on oxygen or serious medication. Or are very disabled and cant live without assistance. I highly doubt that the staff will hang around long, leaving these people to fend for themselves. Similar to what some have read in 1 second after. 

What to do?

Thoughts?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

That really depends on the nature of the disaster and one's ability to get to them. Your question brings Hurricane Katrina to mind.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

You/we can only do so much and we have the rest of our family to consider. Very hard choices will have to be made if it ever gets to that point in this country, and so far that isn't a problem I will have to face if it where to happen right now for my family, thank God! But I will make the choice as I see fit at a given time and will live with said choices, that being said I personally would be one of those who has heath issues and won't allow myself to be a major burden on the rest of my family.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Well, My Father recently moved here from Denver. He is 81 and as sharp as a tack. Gets around pretty good as well. He lives in a retirement community. Some are not as well off as he is. In a SHTF scenario I would get him to my house. The others, I am affraid, would be on there own. I know that sounds hard but I can't take all of them.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Diver said:


> That really depends on the nature of the disaster and one's ability to get to them. Your question brings Hurricane Katrina to mind.


For the scenario I am talking about total shtf. Doesn't matter what caused it, society is done for the foreseeable future.


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## Big Country1 (Feb 10, 2014)

You have to remember, you cant help everyone. You have to keep you and your family's best interests in mind. Some very tough decisions will have to be made post SHTF, and every single one you make you'll have to live with.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

I am in my mid 70's, I have stored enough of my meds (type 2 diabetic) for two years, four if I reduce.
Reduction of food intake would allow for this.
I am not crippled or suffering from any mental deterioration issues.
I can still out shoot most people around here with a rifle and have at every past P.D. Qualification topped all with my 1911 and brookfield precision M25.
I will not become a burden to my family or close friends, would rather be worm food. 
Many come to me for survival advice and how to on things, I would continue to prove my worth in these areas if the SHTF.
In a real bad situation of extended proportions, for many the only thing could be is to make them as comfortable as possible.
If there are family members who are distant and dependent for daily needs, best to leave them where they are IF you place yourself at risk of harm. 
Hard choice, but like every combat order, there are risks, then there unnecessary risks. You have to justify you actions to yourself and others under you.


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## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

If SHTF while I'm still here in this current house, I can help my gramma. She lives next door and will be easy to take care of. Only problem would be protecting 2 homes. Mine has the preps/firearms/fruit trees. Hers is just normal. I know she wouldn't want to come over here. She would want to stay there. 

If it happens while I'm back east, then I'm not sure. Might drive the 3 days here, then 3 days back. Might not. Depends if its nation wide or localized/regional.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

In a total breakdown (like an EMP event), it's going to be really tough on the elderly who are not in good health or the medication-dependent.

I suspect it would be mostly a "do what you can" for your loved ones type of a deal. I mean, if it's your mom or dad, you are going to do whatever you can, aren't you? I would (although all of our parents have passed already). 

There comes a point in time when one has to realize that resources are limited and you have to make tough choices, but I think everybody here would just do the best we can to be good and loyal family members.

Non-family? I think it's the same, you do what you can, realizing family has to come first. 

I hope to God we never have to find out.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

If Diver were the elderly person that I was caring for, it would be an easy decision.









Seriously, it would be very easy!









But for real people, I would do my very best to get them out of the nursing home and into a safe environment. If WROL follows true catastrophic SHTF, then successful extraction may be impossible.

I pray that doesn't occur.


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## shawn1980 (Mar 18, 2015)

Having read One Second After, I've put a lot of thought into this. I basically prep to include my mother. She's in her late 60's but she's not in the best health. She's been through cancer, not the most active person. I know she drinks Ensure, so I try to stock up on that and some of the medicines she might need. If its something like an EMP and she's not already at my house, I won't be able to do much because she lives about 40 miles away from me. I try to encourage all of my extended family to have extra food, water, and OTC meds but a lot of people just won't listen. Like others said, prepare as best you can and help whoever you can without putting your immediate family at risk.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> For the scenario I am talking about total shtf. Doesn't matter what caused it, society is done for the foreseeable future.


The largest single group of deaths during Katrina was a nursing home. It won't get better with a more severe disaster.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Very hard choices. I've got my elderly parents set up with a month's worth of food/water. If we needed to transport them to our place (11 miles) we would either use mule cart, or a cart behind a bicycle. The frail, ancient 92 yo woman I care for however, who is in an adult care home, is another story. I just don't know how we would transport her or what would happen to the other residents.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

shawn1980 said:


> Having read One Second After, I've put a lot of thought into this. I basically prep to include my mother. She's in her late 60's but she's not in the best health. She's been through cancer, not the most active person. I know she drinks Ensure, so I try to stock up on that and some of the medicines she might need. If its something like an EMP and she's not already at my house, I won't be able to do much because she lives about 40 miles away from me. I try to encourage all of my extended family to have extra food, water, and OTC meds but a lot of people just won't listen. Like others said, prepare as best you can and help whoever you can without putting your immediate family at risk.


Absolutely, when I was reading that book & they started talking about the young girl with the Type 1 Diabetes (this isn't a spoiler, this is in the first couple of pages) I literally cringed and said out loud "Oh dear, this is going to be bad..." The nursing home situation? Oh dear.

I suggest EVERYBODY read the book One Second After. It is eye opening.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Excellent book.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Slippy said:


> If Diver were the elderly person that I was caring for, it would be an easy decision.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Slippy, I always imagined you and driver, back to back, fending off the hords with your AK's, Going down together.:laughhard:


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

RNprepper said:


> Very hard choices. I've got my elderly parents set up with a month's worth of food/water. If we needed to transport them to our place (1 miles) we would either use mule cart, or a cart behind a bicycle. The frail, ancient 92 yo woman I care for however, who is in an adult care home is another story. I just don't know how we would transport her or what would happen to the other residents.


You just kicked me in the head with that post. In a real SHTF event, are the care takers in nursing homes, hospitals just going to run home to be with their families, leaving these people to fend for themselves? What about jails and prisons? Are the guards going to stay on the job? How about police officers, fire fighters, EMS?

I guess I'm fortunate right now. No family around me or friends can't take care of themselves.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Prepared One said:


> Slippy, I always imagined you and driver, back to back, fending off the hords with your AK's, Going down together.:laughhard:


Do you really think Slippy would turn his back on Diver? I can see them fighting off the hordes but Slippy will keep his eye on all those around him, he's probably got eyes in the back of his head!


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I have a couple relatives like that. Depending on how rapidly the SHTF situation developed, there is a possibility you will not be able to get to them. That would be heart breaking.


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## shawn1980 (Mar 18, 2015)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Absolutely, when I was reading that book & they started talking about the young girl with the Type 1 Diabetes (this isn't a spoiler, this is in the first couple of pages) I literally cringed and said out loud "Oh dear, this is going to be bad..." The nursing home situation? Oh dear.
> 
> I suggest EVERYBODY read the book One Second After. It is eye opening.


When I first started researching prepping beyond natural disasters, someone suggested that book to me. Its def an eye opener. I honestly think reality might end up being worse then the book portrayed. Having a young daughter myself, it really pushed my prepping to the next level.


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## shawn1980 (Mar 18, 2015)

paraquack said:


> You just kicked me in the head with that post. In a real SHTF event, are the care takers in nursing homes, hospitals just going to run home to be with their families, leaving these people to fend for themselves? What about jails and prisons? Are the guards going to stay on the job? How about police officers, fire fighters, EMS?
> 
> I guess I'm fortunate right now. No family around me or friends can't take care of themselves.


In a SHTF like an EMP or economic collapse, I believe that most people will abandon their jobs to take care of their own. I would like to hope that in a case like a nursing home that some would stay, but the reality is people look out for themselves.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

You can't save them all.
Anguishing over the thought of it is hard, and leads us to the cold reality that many will die.
If the nursing home worry is on your mind, just imagine the thousands currently in the hospitals around your area.
God bless them, the care givers/workers at those facilities will do their best for as long as they can justify.
Eventually though, they too will abandon their post in search of family and loved ones.

It is a harsh reality, cruel and terrifying.
Like others, I pray we never see the day.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I will be 67 in a few months, the wife will turn 69 in the same week.
Our parents are gone, or kids (5) live hundreds of miles away in different directions.
I have been in tough spots before, and anyone that underestimates my wife is in serious trouble.

I am not going to worry needlessly. I believe in God, so when He wants me, I'll be ready to Go Home.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

Some of those elderly peps might surprise you on how well they can handle themselves -death most of them are so close to that rode they don't even care about wasting brain cells on it. Now the problem is the ones that are low functioning bed ridden and or on way too many meds (that goes for younger people too). What they may lack in possibly physical ability they make up for in mental ability this is what we call wisdom. that modern term called Data bank they can draw from it and the younger can learn -the elderly make great teachers -are patient for the most part, are happy to feel needed and have someone to talk to/visit with. I learned how to rebuild a carburetor by a fellow that everyone overlooked and we became friends until he died- the man taught me a lot about cars he was a mechanic most of his life. The people that go fast in and shtf situation or the young, the old, and the really stupid. it is the way it is. How many of you have ever worked or visited a nursing home? have you ever thought about asking mr or mrs so-in-so maybe to teach you how to can food or clean a squirrel or fix your lawnmower?? that gives everyone involved something.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

shoot I got a lot of typos in that one


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Well my tin foil hat is on so here I go, if this country / we the people don't turn things are soon it won't be a what if thing, but what do we do now. We all know that the best laid plans are only good for the first few minutes and then things get bad quickly. Be it from those that see a chance for a new phone, big TV or booze/drugs, the government trying to help and failing miserably, the sick or family of the sick desperate for meds, those that didn't prep at all or those that don't have two pennies to rub together and those that are just scared out of their minds. Hang on folks, it's going to get bad very quickly and it won't be long before we / you get put to the test of what will you do. Regardless of what the media and the government try to push, I don't things are any where near getting better and with the racial tensions being pushed to new limits I'm not looking forward to the future with much hope, especially for those just starting out in life with just a hope and a prayer. When things go bad it will be bad all over and I feel nice guys will not be on the winning side for long. OK, tin foil off, sure is a nice day out today. Hope everyone is enjoying the nice weather after the bad storms last night here in the middle of the country. Stock market is up right now, the pres is lying to those at the Americas get together and the terrorists are on the run again, three cheers for the Secret Service for upholding high standards, again. They're making congress look good. I do get several free channels on Direct TV this weekend though, so all is not lost!


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

ekim said:


> Well my tin foil hat is on so here I go, if this country / we the people don't turn things are soon it won't be a what if thing, but what do we do now. We all know that the best laid plans are only good for the first few minutes and then things get bad quickly. Be it from those that see a chance for a new phone, big TV or booze/drugs, the government trying to help and failing miserably, the sick or family of the sick desperate for meds, those that didn't prep at all or those that don't have two pennies to rub together and those that are just scared out of their minds. Hang on folks, it's going to get bad very quickly and it won't be long before we / you get put to the test of what will you do. Regardless of what the media and the government try to push, I don't things are any where near getting better and with the racial tensions being pushed to new limits I'm not looking forward to the future with much hope, especially for those just starting out in life with just a hope and a prayer. When things go bad it will be bad all over and I feel nice guys will not be on the winning side for long. OK, tin foil off, sure is a nice day out today. Hope everyone is enjoying the nice weather after the bad storms last night here in the middle of the country. Stock market is up right now, the pres is lying to those at the Americas get together and the terrorists are on the run again, three cheers for the Secret Service for upholding high standards, again. They're making congress look good. I do get several free channels on Direct TV this weekend though, so all is not lost!


Good points.
The Big Government nanny state, and the health care system, have defied Nature. 
People are living much longer now than they did less than 100 years ago. Artificially.
The nanny state has enabled a class of people who are of fairly reasonable intelligence to become mentally unfit to survive.
If there is a disruption in either high tech medicine or welfare, tens of thousands will most likely perish. Maybe a million. Maybe more than that.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Medic33 said:


> Some of those elderly peps might surprise you on how well they can handle themselves -death most of them are so close to that rode they don't even care about wasting brain cells on it. Now the problem is the ones that are low functioning bed ridden and or on way too many meds (that goes for younger people too). What they may lack in possibly physical ability they make up for in mental ability this is what we call wisdom. that modern term called Data bank they can draw from it and the younger can learn -the elderly make great teachers -are patient for the most part, are happy to feel needed and have someone to talk to/visit with. I learned how to rebuild a carburetor by a fellow that everyone overlooked and we became friends until he died- the man taught me a lot about cars he was a mechanic most of his life. The people that go fast in and shtf situation or the young, the old, and the really stupid. it is the way it is. How many of you have ever worked or visited a nursing home? have you ever thought about asking mr or mrs so-in-so maybe to teach you how to can food or clean a squirrel or fix your lawnmower?? that gives everyone involved something.


Yes, we visit the relative in the OP quite often. That is what got me to thinking about this topic. Everytime I go to the home I make sure to talk to different folks there. Their stories are amazing! Many lived through the great depression and have lessons to share about that experience. There is a sooner up there full of stories about the dust bowl and what they did to survive. The stories about various wars are great as well. It's like a living library. I have learned many prepping and homesteading things from them. There are some crazy people their too but that's not the point. It just sucks that many of these people will die soon after SHTF. Lack of care and supplies will do them in quickly. My intention is to get my relative out and home. But the others there, I will try to set out some supplies for them. At least some water.

The hope. This is a small town with less than a few thousand population. The home is situated next to the PD and FD. Small community hospital is across the street. Maybe the community will come together and make an effort to let these people go out in some semblance of comfort. That's the hope. Not the cold, harsh reality.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Good points.
> The Big Government nanny state, and the health care system, have defied Nature.
> People are living much longer now than they did less than 100 years ago. Artificially.
> The nanny state has enabled a class of people who are of fairly reasonable intelligence to become mentally unfit to survive.
> If there is a disruption in either high tech medicine or welfare, tens of thousands will most likely perish. Maybe a million. Maybe more than that.


IMO, if it's less than several million within the first couple of weeks, I'd say we got off pretty good, which is sad to even think in those numbers. There are so many that just won't have much chance at all I'm afraid. This country has never seen the kind of suffering that could hit this country in such a short time if it was a major break down. Even the great depression wasn't really a quick thing and look what it did to the country, imagine if it was brought on by something quick and spread out across the country like a major quake along the Mississippi river that could divide the country into to separate areas and power and travel could be affected over night.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I read somewhere, not sure where, that in an EMP event that two thirds of the country would parish. You name the cause of death. Damn! Forgot to put on my tin foil hat!


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

Prepared One said:


> I read somewhere, not sure where, that in an EMP event that two thirds of the country would parish. You name the cause of death. Damn! Forgot to put on my tin foil hat!


Not to worry, I wear mine all the time, I've even got leggins, for those that forget, I'm always prepared!


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

paraquack said:


> You just kicked me in the head with that post. In a real SHTF event, are the care takers in nursing homes, hospitals just going to run home to be with their families, leaving these people to fend for themselves? What about jails and prisons? Are the guards going to stay on the job? How about police officers, fire fighters, EMS?


The permutations of possible events are mind boggling.

If the SHTF event includes widespread loss of power, the hospitals and nursing homes will become gigantic, uninhabitable morgues as critical patients die in their beds by the hundreds. Nurses and doctors will try to help at first, but will be overwhelmed, and will eventually opt to bug out to help their families through the crisis. This will also occur in the event of mass casualties due to nuclear attack, large earthquake, or disease epidemic by the way.

Prisons are an interesting situation. Guards will probably drift away in ones and twos, or just not show up, or be killed on the job until it will become impossible to feed the inmates. I'm guessing that humanitarian governors, rather than watch thousands die horribly in their cells, will order their mass release onto the public, with terrible consequences. That's assuming the electric door locks will open.

I expect police, fire, and EMS and other semi-military organizations will try to stay on the job. Will they have radio communication (EMP destroyed electronics)? Will they have gasoline or the power to pump it from underground to their vehicles? Will the water mains be pressurized (earthquakes)? How will citizens report emergencies without telephones (power failure)?

The questions are endless, and the answers are mostly not good.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

The idea of prison doors being thrown open scares the crap out of me. I don't know
if I have enough ammo to defend myself against an onslaught of that magnitude.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

To hell with treating them humanly at that point. lock them in their cells, shut everything down and get out. It's going to be bad enough out here without those grade "A" predators on the loose. I know some may be incarcerated for minor offenses, or non Violent offense, or just plain not guilty. But, who is willing to sort all that out while the world is going to hell.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I know. I am a cold hearted son of a bitch.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

shawn1980 said:


> In a SHTF like an EMP or economic collapse, I believe that most people will abandon their jobs to take care of their own. I would like to hope that in a case like a nursing home that some would stay, but the reality is people look out for themselves.


IIRC, post Katrina, most of those in nursing homes were found there rotting in their beds. They were abandoned by their caretakers.
With no power for life support, autoclaving or simple meal prepping there was no hope of survival for them.
NOTHING WILL CHANGE if (WHEN) we enter other catastrophic events, short or long duration.
Your own families are the most important to you, human nature will force you to gravitate to them and their needs, all else be damned.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

If they let the prisoners out, mutant zombie biker gangs will be everywhere!


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

PREPARED ONE is right, let them rot in the jails.
What the hell would they do unrestrained?
If you want to be merciful to them, hydrocyanic acid gas generously distributed amongst the cells.
We will have enough predators to deal without adding experienced ones to the mix.
They have proved their worth, that is why they are in behind bars.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

paraquack said:


> You just kicked me in the head with that post. In a real SHTF event, are the care takers in nursing homes, hospitals just going to run home to be with their families, leaving these people to fend for themselves? What about jails and prisons? Are the guards going to stay on the job? How about police officers, fire fighters, EMS?
> 
> I guess I'm fortunate right now. No family around me or friends can't take care of themselves.


Yup, a lot of those people are not going to show up for work. Katrina is a good example of how many first responders got their own families to safety, rather than showing up for work. And yes, a lot of hospital staff will not show up, rather than risk being quarantined in the facility (like SARS in Toronto). Correctional facilities have contingency plans, but I have to ask, When the transportation system shuts down, how are they going to be fed? How about when the air conditioner shuts down in AZ? Inmates are in a world of hurt. A LOT of the guards are going to jump ship.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

sideKahr said:


> The permutations of possible events are mind boggling.
> 
> If the SHTF event includes widespread loss of power, the hospitals and nursing homes will become gigantic, uninhabitable morgues as critical patients die in their beds by the hundreds. Nurses and doctors will try to help at first, but will be overwhelmed, and will eventually opt to bug out to help their families through the crisis. This will also occur in the event of mass casualties due to nuclear attack, large earthquake, or disease epidemic by the way.
> 
> ...


the governor of any state, can send all the orders they want concerning the open release of prisoners - no guard is going to follow them .... the guards live in the area .... they aren't having any orange jumpsuits showing up at the breakfast table ....

I don't even need to see an orange jumpsuit - a prison tat is enough for me ....


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

My dad was a very well prepared man. He lived alone the last 20 years of his life with mom passing early due to cancer. I would have done anything for him had SHTF in his last years. Though he played golf and shot his age 21 days before he died. So odds are he'd have been helping me. I can't imagine leaving a parent behind but that's easy for me to say because they are already gone.


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## wesley762 (Oct 23, 2012)

I think we all forget that this SHTF that we all fear is how our ancestors lived just 125 to 150 years ago. in the big picture that's really not long ago. there really is meaning behind only the strong survive. just 100 years ago 60 was really old. there are some that your just not going to be able to help. as crappy as that sounds its just reality. All these people on special medication or hooked up to some special device are going to die off quick. does it suck yes but the quicker you come to grips with it the better you can be ready for it.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

only the strong survive. how many times have I heard that and though to myself then how in the world did we as a human race survive? we are not the strongest or the fastest ,toughest, or vicious. but yet here we are


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Medic33 said:


> only the strong survive. how many times have I heard that and though to myself then how in the world did we as a human race survive? we are not the strongest or the fastest ,toughest, or vicious. but yet here we are


Were the smartest.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

My main concern would be with those that need certain drugs to stay alive. Resupply would be much more likely if that person remained at the nursing home.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

MaterielGeneral said:


> Were the smartest.


thank you , but even that I sometimes wonder about.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

wesley762 said:


> I think we all forget that this SHTF that we all fear is how our ancestors lived just 125 to 150 years ago. in the big picture that's really not long ago. there really is meaning behind only the strong survive. just 100 years ago 60 was really old. there are some that your just not going to be able to help. as crappy as that sounds its just reality. All these people on special medication or hooked up to some special device are going to die off quick. does it suck yes but the quicker you come to grips with it the better you can be ready for it.


Yes, and average life expectancy was 47.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

We live a few miles from the river that forms the boundary between Florida and Georgia. And just about 8 miles north of that river is a privately run Federal prison.
I think there are 2,000 inmates in there.
That is my biggest concern.
But, on the plus side, we're talking Georgia here, not some touchy-feely state like Massachusetts.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

in a situation like that RPD I would suggest the vlad the impalers method- and a really big flame thrower.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Ak47.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Well dad died 45 years ago, mom just passed a couple of years ago, so I don't have my parents to worry about. I had talked to mom about the "what if" and she did not want to plan for it, be a part of it or be one of the survivors. Dad would have forced her to survive because he was willing to fight to survive. My mom would not have been a victim - she just wouldn't participate. She was a saint, and a strong woman who submitted to her husband but would never have submitted to any other man. Out of my 11 brothers and sisters (8 brothers, 3 sisters) there are 4 who prep and most of the rest feel pretty much the way my mom did. My kids know enough to prep, don't want to think it would come to that but are preparing for some short term situations. I believe it is a matter of getting comfortable enough to know it is survivable and will be worth surviving. I hope they have the time they need. Both have guns and were taught how to use them. My son competes in falling plates and "qualification" practice. He has handguns, shotguns and 22 caliber rifles. My daughter has a pistol and a rifle but has put them in storage because she and her husband are foster parents and they didn't want to go through the added hassle of a safe and a locked room. I'm not sure it was a good trade off - even for the two foster kids they adopted. Needless to say her kids have had little to no contact with guns. My son's kids are all active in the shooting sports and well trained. Two of them compete at the local range.

We are close and I would bet that he will be here with me to make it through. We have the room and the supplies and he will work to do his share.


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## redhawk (May 7, 2014)

In a SHTF scenario, I believe one has to realize that they cannot take care of everyone else, it will be a time of hard decisions. That being said, I like to think that if I was unable to pull my weight in survival mode, then I would not expect anyone to sacrifice their own survival for me...JM2C


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

wesley762 said:


> I think we all forget that this SHTF that we all fear is how our ancestors lived just 125 to 150 years ago. in the big picture that's really not long ago. there really is meaning behind only the strong survive. just 100 years ago 60 was really old. there are some that your just not going to be able to help. as crappy as that sounds its just reality. All these people on special medication or hooked up to some special device are going to die off quick. does it suck yes but the quicker you come to grips with it the better you can be ready for it.


The big difference is that our ancestors had skills that we (as a nation) no longer possess. Even if we preppers can do it, there will be 300 million plus people utterly lost, if a SHTF scenario like an EMP plays out.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

a 125 or 150 years ago an emp did happen I think, and the people did't really even hiccup, prolly just said ooh ahh pretty lights tonight. now days most peep can not even function with out electricity-but do we really need it to survive -- that's a fubar negative Oscar charley!!!!


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## stillacitizen2 (Jan 30, 2015)

It would depend on their age, and their condition, as well as the level of care needed to keep them alive. In Emergency Services, they do Triage. One of those criteria is the age of "victims". If there are two people who need the same care and one is 8, the other 80, guess who gets the care? 

That's the position I'm in. Do I risk everything to try rescuing and caring for my wife's Grandmother who had a debilitating stroke that left her paralyzed on one side who is nearly 90 years old with a host of medications she needs to take? Or do I focus on keeping her Great Children alive and safe, the youngest being 9? Which do you think they would want? The same would go for my mother, my father, mother in law etc. They would not have me risk the safety of my family, to care for them if they could not care for themselves. 

And I would not expect it of my children if I needed that care, or my condition jeopardized the safety of the group. Kind of like in that movie "30 Days of Night" and the guy whose Dad had Dementia, escaped through the bathroom window when they were all hiding in the attic. In the words of Curly Bill; Well...Bye! I would have let him go.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

While certainly I've thought about it, I don't really know what choices we'd make. Not only is it very situational ... but human being most often make decisions based on emotion, and use their logic to cleverly justify their emotional choice. I take steps to make it more likely I'd be able to help my neighbors, because while logically the widow next door is not my problem, I can't imagine myself sitting here snug while she's freezing and hungry across the street.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

medic33 said:


> a 125 or 150 years ago an emp did happen i think, and the people did't really even hiccup, prolly just said ooh ahh pretty lights tonight. Now days most peep can not even function with out electricity-but do we really need it to survive -- that's a fubar negative oscar charley!!!!


When that event happened there was nothing electronic. Just rudimentary electrical devices such as light bulbs and magnetic coils on telegraph sounders. Each and every device operated by direct electrical contact through wires coils and relays.
That pulse fried the telegraph coils. 
Todays devices operate with so little voltage and current that they would melt down from the load presented by an emp pulse. 
Yes we could survive without electric anythings, but it would send us right back into the 18'th century.
Three quarters of the population would die without the mega truck farms and the ability to preserve and bring the food to market.
Those on the African continent and the eskimo's would stand a better chance of survival because of their closeness to their primitive past.
Major hubs like Boston, LA, Chicago etc would loose 95% of the population in a months time from starvation.


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## wesley762 (Oct 23, 2012)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> The big difference is that our ancestors had skills that we (as a nation) no longer possess. Even if we preppers can do it, there will be 300 million plus people utterly lost, if a SHTF scenario like an EMP plays out.


This is what you refer to as thinning the herd. I know I must sound like a @#$ $%^# saying this but I tend to be a realist.

My closest living family in either direction besides my wife and daughter are 2000 miles in either direction. I have come to grips if there is something on a global scale that I will never get to see my family again. the thought is painful but its just reality for me and I accept it. I don't really sugar coat anything but my corn flakes. We all want them around as long as we can and I do to but the stress on a total collapse is just going to overwhelm the weak both physically and mentally.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Medic33 said:


> a 125 or 150 years ago an emp did happen I think, and the people did't really even hiccup, prolly just said ooh ahh pretty lights tonight. now days most peep can not even function with out electricity-but do we really need it to survive -- that's a fubar negative Oscar charley!!!!


SOCOM42 pretty well covered your post. But I gotta throw my 2 cents worth in here. A lot of other people seem to be confusing a HEMP or EMP (same thing , different name) with a *Geomagnetic Storm* caused by a *Coronal Mass Ejection* (CME) from the sun. An EMP will destroy un-protected electronics, especially items with micro electronics. A Geomagnetic Storm appears to more of a threat to the electric grid by inducing high current spurious current into the long lines of the grid. In 1859, the Carrington Event occurred. It was a massive *CME* that hit the earth and created a large Geomagnetic Storm inducing large currents into the only long lines in existence at the time, telegraph wires. Telegraph wire were over heated and cause telegraph wires to catch on fire. Supposedly an operator was electrocuted. Some operators supposedly were able to communicate with out any battery power being connected to their apparatus. A Geomagnetic Storm of sufficient intensity will take out our grid, but *may* leave our electronics functional.

The loss of the grid to a Geomagnetic Storm would most likely allow hospitals with generators to operate for a while. BUT most hospitals have generators sized to take care of the emergency room, surgical suites, ICU, CCU, and maybe very minimal lighting. Everything else goes down. A nurse friend of mine in Kentucky went through this exact scenario for about a month from a terrible ice storm. It took a while, but the hospital brought in a large semi-trailer mounted diesel generator to run the hospital. But even so, the city water was down as well s sewer system. They were using 5 gallon buckets for toilets and water had to be brought in. A bunch of people in the area died from carbon monoxide due to generators. This lasted about a month. A Geomagnetic Storm could take years as it destroys the *giant* transformers you see. The US no longer manufactures these transformers. WE outsourced them to, wait for it, CHINA.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

paraquack said:


> socom42 pretty well covered your post. But i gotta throw my 2 cents worth in here. A lot of other people seem to be confusing a hemp or emp (same thing , different name) with a *geomagnetic storm* caused by a *coronal mass ejection* (cme) from the sun. An emp will destroy un-protected electronics, especially items with micro electronics. A geomagnetic storm appears to more of a threat to the electric grid by inducing high current spurious current into the long lines of the grid. In 1859, the carrington event occurred. It was a massive *cme* that hit the earth and created a large geomagnetic storm inducing large currents into the only long lines in existence at the time, telegraph wires. Telegraph wire were over heated and cause telegraph wires to catch on fire. Supposedly an operator was electrocuted. Some operators supposedly were able to communicate with out any battery power being connected to their apparatus. A geomagnetic storm of sufficient intensity will take out our grid, but *may* leave our electronics functional.
> 
> The loss of the grid to a geomagnetic storm would most likely allow hospitals with generators to operate for a while. But most hospitals have generators sized to take care of the emergency room, surgical suites, icu, ccu, and maybe very minimal lighting. Everything else goes down. A nurse friend of mine in kentucky went through this exact scenario for about a month from a terrible ice storm. It took a while, but the hospital brought in a large semi-trailer mounted diesel generator to run the hospital. But even so, the city water was down as well s sewer system. They were using 5 gallon buckets for toilets and water had to be brought in. A bunch of people in the area died from carbon monoxide due to generators. This lasted about a month. A geomagnetic storm could take years as it destroys the *giant* transformers you see. The us no longer manufactures these transformers. We outsourced them to, wait for it, china.


yeah, you can thank general electric and westinghouse for outsourcing those xformers.
From what i understand, they do not keep spares of any of the big ones.
Even the small tubs for consumer use are in short supply compared to years ago.
The glass-lead-acid batteries used by the telegraph companies at the time of the event vaporized with the load introduced into them.
That whole system operated on a closed loop and every terminal was affected.


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