# Judgement Day



## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

Does anyone think the when when second coming of Christ comes to past that he will be politically correct in his judgment , or will he call it for what it is, those in power making these decisions of today that are shaping our society need to think long and hard about this, though l fear that will not happen as long as their own self interests remain a priority.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

I think I have enough of my own issues to be worried about. We are taught not to judge others. God is too big for me to even think of figuring out what he will do & how far His grace will spread. I do believe in grace & do believe there will be a judgement. How that all works is way beyond my pay grade, so I just worry about my own sins.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

While we may debate the timing of Jesus' appearing, . . . the meaning of this seal, that trumpet, or this other bowl of wrath, . . . and the chronological order of all that, . . . it is all academic.

Those things are superfluous to the conversation and question you had.

The simple and absolute answer to your answer, rstanek, is found here:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) 
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 
12 And I saw *the dead*, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
15 And *whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire*.

Just two short comments are needed for the un-educated: "the dead" refers to every soul that was ever created, . . . from the spontaneously aborted child that was only old enough to have been created, . . . to Methuselah, . . . he lived 969 years IIRC, . . . and either died in the flood or passed away the year of the flood.

Secondly, . . . once we see who "the dead" are, . . . only one thing they need to do or be, . . . and that is to make sure their names are found in the Lamb's book of life at the great white throne judgment.

PC will not play a part, . . . being born again in the name of Jesus Christ will be the only part played. No Jews, no bhuddists, no muslims, no atheists, no druids, and I know I did not mention all of the others, . . . but they rejected Jesus Christ, . . . so they get to be delivered up out of hell so they can be delivered to the lake of fire.

Not complicated at all.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

You will be judged for what you truly are. Political correctness??


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

Chipper said:


> You will be judged for what you truly are. Political correctness??


I only threw that out there because I'm sure some people would expect to be judged in that manner, not my personal feelings about it..I try to not judge though I'm guilty of it, as well as many other sins, I will always be work in progress.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rstanek said:


> I only threw that out there because I'm sure some people would expect to be judged in that manner, not my personal feelings about it..I try to not judge though I'm guilty of it, as well as many other sins, I will always be work in progress.


That begs a question; what does it mean to judge?

Am I not to identify immorality in myself and others? Am I to pretend as the modern saying suggest, "It's all good?"


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> That begs a question; what does it mean to judge?


From what I can gather from my understanding of the Bible, judgement is final.
We, as mere mortals with finite understanding, should not pass final judgement on others, and cast them off as "lost" forever.
This would violate Christ's forgiving nature, which we are expected to emulate. "Not 7 times, but 70 times 7"

This does NOT mean we can not be discerning creatures.
How are we to "not become like the world" if we force ourselves to ignore the impurities of the world for the sake of "not judging"?
I use Christ's teachings as my measuring rod. If he said it is wrong, then it is not my judgement that has deemed it so, but his.
We should not wither and cower when told "you can't judge me", when the issue is one Christ has already judged.

When faced with a petulant child standing before him, demanding that he change his point of view for the sake of their own feelings, I hope God will chuckle.
It is our choice to sin. It is our choice to dishonor God. He gave us this choice. Can we really blame him for honoring our choice?

There will be nothing "politically correct" about judgement day. There will only be "correct" and final judgement.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> From what I can gather from my understanding of the Bible, judgement is final.
> We, as mere mortals with finite understanding, should not pass final judgement on others, and cast them off as "lost" forever.
> This would violate Christ's forgiving nature, which we are expected to emulate. "Not 7 times, but 70 times 7"
> 
> ...


A cowboy statesman. Impressive!

You summed up my primitive thoughts. Thank you, sir.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Well, being an atheist, I'm thinking "not so much" on the whole "second coming"...

Your milage may vary.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

S&P has a point. While you bible believers may be right, what if you're not and you backed the wrong horse?


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Real Old Man said:


> S&P has a point. While you bible believers may be right, what if you're not and you backed the wrong horse?


I looked under all those rocks during my years of youthful foolishness, not only is there not a better horse to back.... there ain't no other horse.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> S&P has a point. While you bible believers may be right, what if you're not and you backed the wrong horse?


Sounds like somebody has been studying up a smart feller named Pascal. He proposed a wager much like your worry about betting on the wrong horse. As good as I can recall the way it works is if a person bets on God being real they dont have much to lose..other than an immoral life style.. if they are wrong. Much to gain if they are right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Ah yes, but whose version of god? Catholics, Baptists (doesn't quite fit with the water into wine story) Lutheran, Church Of England, Buddist, Bhramist, Taoist, .

If you take a good close look at most of the world's major religions (you note I do not include the Islam Ideology) have similar tenants. Honor father and mother, do not lie, steal dream about another person's wife, do not kill. Granted you still have only a few that believe in the three in one concept of God, but the rest?


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

It makes more sense to me that I would want to believe and be wrong then not believe and be wrong.....


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

God's own nature is to be just, therefore he cannot co-exist with sin (actions outside the perfect will of God) and will punish it with finality.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

If the story of Noah and the Ark is a true depiction, is it really possible that the only non sinning person was Noah (or including members of his family) ? That there was not one other non sinning person on the earth.

Just? Nah! Good role model? well


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> If the story of Noah and the Ark is a true depiction, is it really possible that the only non sinning person was Noah (or including members of his family) ? That there was not one other non sinning person on the earth.
> 
> Just? Nah! Good role model? well


Let's start with an assumption... God is real and the omnipotent creator of all things.
From this starting point (the believer's perspective), any decision made by this being is indeed just, as it is the originator of all things, and all things exist because of it.
Your human justification system is limited by your human knowledge. If you possessed this omniscient understanding of literally ALL THINGS that believers understand God to know, your perspective would be enormously different.

Now, if you reject the first assumption, which is your choice to do, then this falls apart.
That doesn't mean believers are wrong. It just means we have a different point of view.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Real Old Man said:


> If the story of Noah and the Ark is a true depiction, is it really possible that the only non sinning person was Noah (or including members of his family) ? That there was not one other non sinning person on the earth.
> 
> Just? Nah! Good role model? well


Humans reject God, live as they see fit, follow every path Satan creates for them, and then blames God for the consequences.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> Ah yes, but whose version of god? Catholics, Baptists (doesn't quite fit with the water into wine story) Lutheran, Church Of England, Buddist, Bhramist, Taoist, .


Anyone who argues over "versions" of God is missing the grander point.
Acknowledging that a creator exists, saw fit to set the stars in motion, made a point to implement intricate systems from which all sentient and non-sentient life could spring, and then *perhaps* has a desire to connect with that which they have created on a deeper level than a potter to his clay. This is the grander point.
Whatever path it takes to get someone to this point, I wish them well. As long as they don't threaten to kill me if I don't agree with them, I'm pretty much fine with whatever they want to believe.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

I ardently welcome the Second Coming and The Judgement Seat of Christ, and I am so glad that I made my peace with Him. Christ is God, and all opinions tot he contrary, are treated as trash by me.
Political Correctness is corrupt by nature, it is an intrinsic part, and it is the intent of it; I am saying that those who practice it, know that it is a corruption of justice; but they love the power of it.
Christ can be nothing but Truth, so He is anti-PC,He must be. The Judgement will be the most truthful thing that humans will ever experience, and it will be pain-filled.

So, I am going with--He will call it as it is.

And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" 1 Peter 4:18

*
*


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Anyone who argues over "versions" of God is missing the grander point.
> Acknowledging that a creator exists, saw fit to set the stars in motion, made a point to implement intricate systems from which all sentient and non-sentient life could spring, and then *perhaps* has a desire to connect with that which they have created on a deeper level than a potter to his clay. This is the grander point.
> Whatever path it takes to get someone to this point, I wish them well. As long as they don't threaten to kill me if I don't agree with them, I'm pretty much fine with whatever they want to believe.


Boy, do we like traveling all roads!

Jesus said the only way to the Father is through the Son. If we are to believe this to be true, then to believe the Creator is lying to others who believe their way is the right way.

As far as the varying Christian sects, if they accept Jesus as Father's only begotten Son who came to earth as man, led a perfect life, died for our sins, arose from the grave and is now sitting on the right hand of Father and is acting as our defense attorney when the Accuser comes to press charges against us, all members of the varying sects will learn the flaws in each of their dogmas.

If Hinduism is right, I'll probably come back as an earthworm living in a cow patty, waiting for a bird to eat me.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

You are judge quilty. Flat ass guarantee 10 outof10 die. But faith is your salvation ,it is a take it or leave it choice.


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Kauboy said:


> Let's start with an assumption... God is real and the omnipotent creator of all things.
> From this starting point (the believer's perspective), any decision made by this being is indeed just, as it is the originator of all things, and all things exist because of it.
> Your human justification system is limited by your human knowledge. If you possessed this omniscient understanding of literally ALL THINGS that believers understand God to know, your perspective would be enormously different.
> 
> ...


Funny neither you nor Denton addressed my quandry. Is it really possible that all (in todays world ) 8 billion people (less one family) are all unrepentant sinners? Or that none of that family (not a single one) were sinners?

But even worse, was the decision that the rest of the world was unsavable.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Real Old Man said:


> Funny neither you nor Denton addressed my quandry. Is it really possible that all (in todays world ) 8 billion people (less one family) are all unrepentant sinners? Or that none of that family (not a single one) were sinners?
> 
> But even worse, was the decision that the rest of the world was unsavable.


Oh, we are talking about Noah, right? My bad.

I think we might be assuming it is all about sin and not about genetics. You know; the fallen angels taking women, having offspring and tainting human DNA.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Denton said:


> Boy, do we like traveling all roads!
> 
> Jesus said the only way to the Father is through the Son. If we are to believe this to be true, then to believe the Creator is lying to others who believe their way is the right way.
> 
> ...


 I know there is no do overs as a different life form. But if there was I coming back as my Dog Dam he has it made.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> Funny neither you nor Denton addressed my quandry. Is it really possible that all (in todays world ) 8 billion people (less one family) are all unrepentant sinners? Or that none of that family (not a single one) were sinners?
> 
> But even worse, was the decision that the rest of the world was unsavable.


Funny that this is what you focus on.

Is it possible? Yep.
Is it likely? Perhaps not.
Do we know? Nope.
Do we believe it's true? Some of us.
Is this sufficient enough to doubt all the rest? Not hardly.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Boy, do we like traveling all roads!
> 
> Jesus said the only way to the Father is through the Son. If we are to believe this to be true, then to believe the Creator is lying to others who believe their way is the right way.
> 
> ...


Yep, Jesus did.
I believe him.
That doesn't mean I expect everyone else to believe him.

I also believe that God is just and fair.
It is not for me to decide who will and will not be allowed to enjoy eternal joy or eternal damnation.
I have zero issue with God deciding to make exceptions as he sees fit. I believe he is literally the end all be all of everything, and has the authority to do that, if he chooses.

If someone isn't willing to accept that Christ is the Son of the one true God, but what they do believe keeps them in perfect line with the tenets of his teaching, I'm not going to wag a finger at them and tell them they are damned.

That would be judging.
I'm not the judge. ;-)


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

One thing about us seasoned citizens is we dont have long to wait to know for sure whether our opinions about spiritual matters are right or wrong.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Yep, Jesus did.
> I believe him.
> That doesn't mean I expect everyone else to believe him.
> 
> ...


It was made clear that there is only one way. It was also made clear that your good works are as dirty rags without Him.
The way I take judging, is that I don't know what tomorrow will bring for anyone. I don't know how the Holy Spirit is working in someone's life, no matter how bad they seem, today. I could be wrong.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> It was made clear that there is only one way. It was also made clear that your good works are as dirty rags without Him.
> The way I take judging, is that I don't know what tomorrow will bring for anyone. I don't know how the Holy Spirit is working in someone's life, no matter how bad they seem, today. I could be wrong.


It was made clear that the Jews were God's chosen people, and the only ones meant for salvation...
God changed his mind.
It was made clear that the only path to salvation was to follow the law handed down to Moses...
God changed his mind.

Is it up to us to nail him to the wall and demand he never do so again?
Are we so bold as to believe we get to tell him that no further exceptions can be made?

I would never advise someone to live their lives relying on this idea.
But, I'm not about to pretend it isn't possible.
He gets the final say. Not you, not me. Him.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> It was made clear that the Jews were God's chosen people, and the only ones meant for salvation...
> God changed his mind.
> It was made clear that the only path to salvation was to follow the law handed down to Moses...
> God changed his mind.
> ...


Why do you think it was clear that only the Jews were to be saved? That isn't clear to me. What is clear is that the Jewish lineage was the one from which Jesus would come. Many prophesies made this clear, and the Jewish laws were for good reason, to protect the bloodline. That doesn't mean Father wasn't working His plan for all. God is omnipresent. He isn't restrained by time, as we are.

Through the Bible (if you are a believer), we know the beginning and how the end will be. That is prophesy given to us, and that will not change.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

The Old Testament tells of God's chosen people from the bloodline of Abraham, and the *laws *they were to live under. This is the history of the Jews. The New Testament is written to the Gentiles (most of the rest of us) and tells of God's *grace* and the letters to the churches, prophetic writings, and God's perfect plan for his eternal relationship with his creation called Man.

John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. HCSB

Matthew 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. HCSB


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Interesting insight on God etc.
Nobody knows till it actualy happens. 
Maybe a whole section of our brains get turned on right before it happens, and our 6 or 7th sense enables us to see thinys we have never seen..


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> ...and that will not change.


What if he wanted it to?

I'm not trying to make you question scripture, or doctrine.
I'm trying to convey the idea that God gets to do what God wants to do, and we aren't going to tell him otherwise.

For example, take the un-contacted tribes of primitive people across the world.
They've never heard the message of Christ. Never been given the opportunity to submit and give their lives to the Father.
By your strict interpretation of scripture, they are forever damned.
But, we know that God is just and fair.
Given zero opportunity to know Jesus, are you to expect that God will condemn them?

I leave that decision up to him. Anyone who understands the nature of the being we call "God" can do nothing but the same. He decides. Not us.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

******* said:


> We are taught not to judge others.


Can you tell me where this teaching is located at in the Bible???


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> If the story of Noah and the Ark is a true depiction, is it really possible that the only non sinning person was Noah (or including members of his family) ? That there was not one other non sinning person on the earth.
> 
> Just? Nah! Good role model? well


Noah was not sinless...he was righteous which is much different


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Maine-Marine said:


> Can you tell me where this teaching is located at in the Bible???


Luke 6:37
Matthew 7:1? Also


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> Funny neither you nor Denton addressed my quandry. Is it really possible that all (in todays world ) 8 billion people (less one family) are all unrepentant sinners? Or that none of that family (not a single one) were sinners?
> 
> But even worse, was the decision that the rest of the world was unsavable.


it is estimated that the world had about 11 million at the time of the flood.

again Noah was not sinless... he had sin... but he also had trust in God... the others, that died were warned and refused to listen---just like today

The really scary thing is that God is Just and his rewards and punishment will be just.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Steve40th said:


> Luke 6:37
> Matthew 7:1? Also


Pretty much states it.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> It was made clear that the Jews were God's chosen people, and the only ones meant for salvation...
> God changed his mind.
> *It was made clear that the only path to salvation was to follow the law handed down to Moses...*
> God changed his mind.


the law never offered salvation!!!!!!!!!!!! Never!!!!!!!

The promise to Abraham was BEFORE the 10 commandments.

read galatians 3 and Romans 4

faith and the promise was before the law... God never changed his mind, he added the law to show them they could not do it on their own


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> it is estimated that the world had about 11 million at the time of the flood.
> 
> again Noah was not sinless... he had sin... but he also had trust in God... the others, that died were warned and refused to listen---just like today
> 
> The really scary thing is that God is Just and his rewards and punishment will be just.


I agree. Well except for the scary part. That would only bother me if I had shunned or ignored Him.

I'm not sure about the judgement for believers. Jesus stated we are saved through grace. But I have read elsewhere where we will be judged also. I have made many mistakes in my life and if I have to pay for those misdeeds then so be it. I don't think though it will keep us from heaven, it could just delay the process.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Steve40th said:


> Luke 6:37
> Matthew 7:1? Also


those are not PROHIBITIONS ON JUDGING, they are instructions on how to judge correctly

the only prohibition is about judging those OUTSIDE the body 1 Corinthians 5:12


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## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

Looking at Matthew 7:1 I think it important to read the entire passage including all material from 7:1 to 8:1. It does not say that it is forbidden or a sin to point out fault in another person. The message is we are all sinners so it is wise to focus on your own path as it is with your relationship with God. Finding faults in others and ignoring your own faults will lead you away from God.


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## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

Likewise in all these passages the message is to leave the spiritual judgement to God because we are all unrighteous. 

This has nothing to do with judging people based on their actions. universally held laws such as don't steal, rape, murder, etc are for us to judge.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Ragnarök said:


> Looking at Matthew 7:1 I think it important to read the entire passage including all material from 7:1 to 8:1. It does not say that it is forbidden or a sin to point out fault in another person. The message is we are all sinners so it is wise to focus on your own path as it is with your relationship with God. Finding faults in others and ignoring your own faults will lead you away from God.


sort of but the thing is we are to have OUR house in order before we start trying to correct others in the body... I have often said - if you have a gambling problem you can not offer guidance to a person with a gambling problem


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Ragnarök said:


> Likewise in all these passages the message is to leave the spiritual judgement to God because we are all unrighteous.
> 
> This has nothing to do with judging people based on their actions. universally held laws such as don't steal, rape, murder, etc are for us to judge.


Ah! But who decides what is rape stealing and murder? Is sex with a 9 year old rape? Not if you were Mohamad. Murder? Killing an infidel isn't murder to a true muslim, it's only carrying out gods punishment of the unbelievers. Kind of like what god did to those not of Noah's family.

And is taking gold and silver from the rich and giving it to the poor stealing if it's done with good intentions? (I'm refering to Robin Hood, not the IRS and the welfare system).


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> Ah! But who decides what is rape stealing and murder? Is sex with a 9 year old rape? Not if you were Mohamad. Murder? Killing an infidel isn't murder to a true muslim, it's only carrying out gods punishment of the unbelievers. Kind of like what god did to those not of Noah's family.
> 
> And is taking gold and silver from the rich and giving it to the poor stealing if it's done with good intentions? (I'm refering to Robin Hood, not the IRS and the welfare system).





Real Old Man said:


> Ah! But who decides what is rape stealing and murder? Is sex with a 9 year old rape? Not if you were Mohamad. Murder? Killing an infidel isn't murder to a true muslim, it's only carrying out gods punishment of the unbelievers.


God Decides what is right or wrong. Which God?? well there can only be ONE almighty God and so far the God of the Bible seems to have the best evidence for being true. Since the god of islam is satan it is easy to see they are wrong

not sure about your comment about noah... God killed evil people.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> Well, being an atheist, I'm thinking "not so much" on the whole "second coming"...
> 
> Your milage may vary.


SORT OF SAD..I SUPPOSE...GOING THROUGH LIFE KNOWING IN YOUR HEART THAT THERE IS NOTHING MORE THAN THIS AND AT DEATH,,,,ITS OVER.... laughing at the idiots who put faith in jesus first and call him LORD god.....pretty comical until you find out whose right.

IF THE athiest is right...then the CHRISTIAN LIVED A DECENT, LOVING, COMPASSIONATE, GIVING LIFE FOR NO REASON....AND HE IS SIMPLY SNUFFED OUT.

yet if the CHRISTIAN IS RIGHT,,,,HE GOES TO HIS NEW LIFE IN HEAVEN, AND THE ATHIST, EVEN IF HE LIVED A GOOD ND DECENT LIFE GETS SET TO ETERNAL DAMNATION.

Oh well, nuff about that stuff..wonder whats coming on the TV tonight......


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> What if he wanted it to?
> 
> I'm not trying to make you question scripture, or doctrine.
> I'm trying to convey the idea that God gets to do what God wants to do, and we aren't going to tell him otherwise.
> ...


Brother, you aren't doing anything but engaging in good conversation; no need for concern.

Is there any verses corroborating your assertion? For some reason, I'm thinking there might be.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Real Old Man said:


> Ah! But who decides what is rape stealing and murder? Is sex with a 9 year old rape? Not if you were Mohamad. Murder? Killing an infidel isn't murder to a true muslim, it's only carrying out gods punishment of the unbelievers. Kind of like what god did to those not of Noah's family.
> 
> And is taking gold and silver from the rich and giving it to the poor stealing if it's done with good intentions? (I'm refering to Robin Hood, not the IRS and the welfare system).


There is one Creator and Father, according to the Bible. Are there other gods? Of course. Father told us not to worship any other god but Him.
Are you asking who are those other gods?

As far as the Robin Hood/Government thing, charity is voluntary while using threats of force to take from one to give to another isn't. Then, you already knew that. I know you, and you are anything but a liberal!


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Denton said:


> There is one Creator and Father, according to the Bible. Are there other gods? Of course. Father told us not to worship any other god but Him.
> Are you asking who are those other gods?
> 
> As far as the Robin Hood/Government thing, charity is voluntary while using threats of force to take from one to give to another isn't. Then, you already knew that. I know you, and you are anything but a liberal!


Now there you go giving away my back ground. Let's just say that John Birch was a litle to lefty for me:vs_mad:


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> What if he wanted it to?
> 
> I'm not trying to make you question scripture, or doctrine.
> I'm trying to convey the idea that God gets to do what God wants to do, and we aren't going to tell him otherwise.
> ...


From all I have read, Jews who do not believe in Christ will be judged by keeping of the Law handed down by Moses. ALl who have heard of Christ and rejected or failed to belive in His words will be damned. and those who never knew about Christ still have Gods law imprinted in their hearts where they know right from wrong and will be judged according to this.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Real Old Man said:


> Ah! But who decides what is rape stealing and murder? Is sex with a 9 year old rape? Not if you were Mohamad. Murder? Killing an infidel isn't murder to a true muslim, it's only carrying out gods punishment of the unbelievers. Kind of like what god did to those not of Noah's family.
> 
> And is taking gold and silver from the rich and giving it to the poor stealing if it's done with good intentions? (I'm refering to Robin Hood, not the IRS and the welfare system).


You blur two different issues to achieve the above statement. First is the judging of Men for earthly actions, not Spiritual punishment. When Ragnarok clearly said this. Then you used Men doing Earthly crimes under the banner of religion to say that it isn't a crime.

To answer the question Yes its a Sin against God, and a Crime against Man. It is for Other Men to judge and punish for the Sins against Man, and God shall Judge and Punish for the sins against him.

Clear enough?


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## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> You blur two different issues to achieve the above statement. First is the judging of Men for earthly actions, not Spiritual punishment. When Ragnarok clearly said this. Then you used Men doing Earthly crimes under the banner of religion to say that it isn't a crime.
> 
> To answer the question Yes its a Sin against God, and a Crime against Man. It is for Other Men to judge and punish for the Sins against Man, and God shall Judge and Punish for the sins against him.
> 
> Clear enough?


I blurred nothing of the sort. If your religion (christianity) is in concert with sex with a 9 year old as being rape, then all well and good. But what if it isn't? Such is the case with Islam on most things we see as a sin or crime. Their religion (if you can call it that ) doesn't.

So for folks that believe in the Christian Model and live in societies where that model was used to craft the legal system all well and good. My point is that except for islam, most other world religions are consistent with the Christian model of right and wrong.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

It is simple in my mind. In ISLAMIC countries it may not be a crime against man to marry a 9 year old. This in my opinion is sinful, but I leave that to God to judge, However in our country we have Laws of Man....and it is illegal and we have the right to Judge and punish that behavior, regardless of what religious beliefs the perpetrator has.


It is through pressure of peoples who believe that its indecent to wed at that age that can influence Man to pass Laws to prevent it. I believe that no matter what Man chooses to do about it, God will punish for it. THose who do it, Those who allow it, an those who condone it.


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## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

Maine-Marine said:


> sort of but the thing is we are to have OUR house in order before we start trying to correct others in the body... I have often said - if you have a gambling problem you can not offer guidance to a person with a gambling problem


I agree with you that you must have your house in order as it is said in Gods word.

Do we have our houses in order if We have accepted God into our heart and are repentant? It ultimately is our choice when we are ready to be fishers among men. Your analogy of gambling is right on point. A person that has overcome gambling problems would have the most precious advice around.


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## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

Real Old Man said:


> Ah! But who decides what is rape stealing and murder? Is sex with a 9 year old rape? Not if you were Mohamad. Murder? Killing an infidel isn't murder to a true muslim, it's only carrying out gods punishment of the unbelievers. Kind of like what god did to those not of Noah's family.
> 
> And is taking gold and silver from the rich and giving it to the poor stealing if it's done with good intentions? (I'm refering to Robin Hood, not the IRS and the welfare system).


Islam is not the truth. Examples referring to Islam have no basis to this discussion.

Rape, theft, and murder are all very simple to understand. I do not need to explain the dynamics of each.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Ragnarök said:


> I agree with you that you must have your house in order as it is said in Gods word.
> 
> Do we have our houses in order if We have accepted God into our heart and are repentant? It ultimately is our choice when we are ready to be fishers among men. Your analogy of gambling is right on point. A person that has overcome gambling problems would have the most precious advice around.


It didn't take a Preacher who had never drank to change my path on drinking. One can learn more from an old drunk telling you not to do what he's done and what he's suffered because of it....It's up to the person being told to decide to listen to wisdom, whether it comes from a fellow drunkard or not. The point is, if only the ones without sin where listened too, we'd all be reading the red words in the bible....and no one among us could speak on any issue. Though the bible tells me to not point out the sliver in another's eye when ignoring the smote in mine.... This is not telling me to not point it out...just also to acknowledge and deal with my own.

It is our collective responsibility to help each other overcome sin as best we can... Hypocrisy is not in the pointing out of anothers sin, when you too have sin....Hypocrisy is only in doing so without acknowledging your own or asserting your lack of it.


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## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

Old SF Guy said:


> It didn't take a Preacher who had never drank to change my path on drinking. One can learn more from an old drunk telling you not to do what he's done and what he's suffered because of it....It's up to the person being told to decide to listen to wisdom, whether it comes from a fellow drunkard or not. The point is, if only the ones without sin where listened too, we'd all be reading the red words in the bible....and no one among us could speak on any issue. Though the bible tells me to not point out the sliver in another's eye when ignoring the smote in mine.... This is not telling me to not point it out...just also to acknowledge and deal with my own.
> 
> It is our collective responsibility to help each other overcome sin as best we can... Hypocrisy is not in the pointing out of anothers sin, when you too have sin....Hypocrisy is only in doing so without acknowledging your own or asserting your lack of it.


Smoking cigarettes is the log in my eye. I smoke to relieve stress...at least that's the excuse I use. It is outlet, and I enjoy it. I have quit before but so far always go back. I have found though that in my longest quit I was drinking a lot more tea than usual so the attention was placed elsewhere.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Ragnarök said:


> Smoking cigarettes is the log in my eye. I smoke to relieve stress...at least that's the excuse I use. It is outlet, and I enjoy it. I have quit before but so far always go back. I have found though that in my longest quit I was drinking a lot more tea than usual so the attention was placed elsewhere.


Not to get off topic....but its the little compromises we make with ourselves that lead to the return to sin... I quit because I wanted to see if I could.....I just wanted to make sure I could control my vice.....I'll just do it tonight then get back on course tomorrow...

Little satanic lies we tell ourselves.... At least it has been for me...I quit drinking for six months...didn't even crave it. Then a rough weekend led to six more months of sinfulness. I have quit again...and now six months in....This time though I promised to quit lying to myself about it too.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Brother, you aren't doing anything but engaging in good conversation; no need for concern.
> 
> Is there any verses corroborating your assertion? For some reason, I'm thinking there might be.


I wouldn't go so far as to claim I'm asserting anything, or at the very least, that I have any authority to back it up. 
We believe that God is the pinnacle of love. We believe that God has, literally, eternal grace. We believe that God is a just arbiter.
Can such a being condemn good people who've had no choice in accepting or rejecting the gift of his Son?
I would hope not.
But, I could also be wrong.
I leave it to the one with immeasurable wisdom to make that call.

I was looking through Paul's letters and he mentions this idea. Feel free to offer your interpretation.
God decides who will receive mercy:
Romans 9:14-18 - "*14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.*"

Paul also asked later, in chapter 10, "*14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent?*"
He goes on to quote a passage from David's Psalms "*18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
"Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world."*"
This doesn't quite answer the full question about whether "they" have heard about the good news of the Savior, but rather that "they" have heard the law of God which is made prominent in all things. If that law is followed, but one never hears of the news of Christ, are they still condemned?

The same letter goes on to speak of the Gentiles being "grafted in" (Romans 11:11-24). That their "*salvation has come*" due to Israel's trespass, so as to make Israel jealous. This is a clear implication that the Gentiles were not originally included, but that God used them as a tool to right Israel's path. I, for one, am grateful to be a tool for the Father, and thankful for the opportunity to be put to such use. ;-)


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

^^^ What he said :tango_face_grin: ^^^


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## Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

rstanek said:


> Does anyone think the when when second coming of Christ comes to past that he will be politically correct in his judgment , or will he call it for what it is, those in power making these decisions of today that are shaping our society need to think long and hard about this, though l fear that will not happen as long as their own self interests remain a priority.


 @rstanek Christ has never been politically correct. That is why the leaders of the Jewish people were so vehement to kill Him as they did. If you remember in the New Testament in Matthew chapter 27 Pilate offered the Jews the opportunity to free Jesus or Barabbas (who was a known criminal). They were so ticked off at The Savior because he called them out for who they really were. @dwight55 pretty much nailed it you can't argue with what the scriptures plainly say.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

rstanek said:


> Does anyone think the when when second coming of Christ comes to past that he will be politically correct in his judgment , or will he call it for what it is, those in power making these decisions of today that are shaping our society need to think long and hard about this, though l fear that will not happen as long as their own self interests remain a priority.


Christ wasn't politically correct when He was here the first time. Why would HE bend to liberal political correctness this time?


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)




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