# Large Groups and Trenches



## JebbyNuLL (Jan 25, 2021)

In a large group (20+) you could dig a trench around your compound with mounted MG's creating a more defendable position. One person firing an MG could hold of maybe 10 people with the help of a marksman to pick off anyone sneaking around or behind cover. Ammo and cost would be the biggest problems, but other than that the better cover could let your group hold off larger groups. A no man's land could be set up with little cover and lots of barbed wire to slow the enemy down as well.


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

JebbyNuLL said:


> In a large group (20+) you could dig a trench around your compound with mounted MG's creating a more defendable position. One person firing an MG could hold of maybe 10 people with the help of a marksman to pick off anyone sneaking around or behind cover. Ammo and cost would be the biggest problems, but other than that the better cover could let your group hold off larger groups. A no man's land could be set up with little cover and lots of barbed wire to slow the enemy down as well.


that's a lot of digging... I suggest you get started. And I suggest getting the barbed wire and fence posts purchased ahead of time.... and the MG's... then get the 20+ people (plus marksmen).... then Robert's your mother's brother!


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Jebby, Never been in the military, huh?


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Sand bags and Claymores


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## NMPRN (Dec 25, 2020)

Unless they've been watching too many WW-II movies, I don't think the bad guys are going to attack en masse, especially against a MG. They have a captive audience, I suspect they'd just snipe you off one at a time from 800 yards.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

or you could just post a few RADIATION or Chemical signs on your long driveway

or just have a nice bunker


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## Nick (Nov 21, 2020)

Yeah I'm thinking trenches with razor wire and towers with MG's would be pretty much the equivalent of putting up a 50' tall 30' wide neon sign saying "look at me". No sense in advertising to everyone who may be looking for supplies that you have some. Also not sure how your going to get your hands on all those resources, especially the MG's and the ammo. Even if it were possible a couple guys with sniper rifles (as mentioned above) could probably make pretty short work of it. To pull off something like that you would literally need hundreds of people so you could hold off attacks from large groups. The best bet is and always will be not drawing attention to your location.


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

and once you get the trench dug, you could use it as a lazy river ride for the kiddies.... and then when SHTF fill it with sharks with friken lasers!!


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Rent a backhoe.

I don't mean the new VP.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

I am of the shoot and scoot school. Things will be hotter than Hell if I have to defend my home and my life, and I won’t have any barricades.
But I will have freedom of movement, even if I have to shoot my own lane, in order to get it.


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## Wedrownik (Sep 22, 2020)

If you are to build a trench how far out from your compound would it be to keep the compound safe. Then look at the circumference (since you would want to circle your compound). As others stated.... That's a lot of digging
Now add one more complication- when under attack how would you get to it? Are you planning to build a tunnel to get to it? Also are there any areas within half a mile from your planned trench that are higher elevation then the trench? 

If you want to set something up, then build something along the lines of a pill box. You'd have a secure place to store ammo, guns, rest and so on.... 

But even pillboxes have issues when it comes to defenses.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

JebbyNuLL said:


> In a large group (20+) you could dig a trench around your compound with mounted MG's creating a more defendable position. One person firing an MG could hold of maybe 10 people with the help of a marksman to pick off anyone sneaking around or behind cover. Ammo and cost would be the biggest problems, but other than that the better cover could let your group hold off larger groups. A no man's land could be set up with little cover and lots of barbed wire to slow the enemy down as well.


Unless you have a backhoe good luck with that. Take it from a guy who has dug A LOT of ditches.

As for ammo cost, when you're being attacked I'm sure that's the last thing on your mind.

Instead of MG's why not fill the ditches with water and get some alligators with lasers strapped to their head?

Just sayin'.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Trenches worked in a few specific scenarios.
When was the last time you heard it uses as a viable option?
Any elevation around you, and you're literally fish in a barrel.

Take all of this as constructive criticism. Keep thinking up ideas after the old ones have been shot down. Sometimes we need others to show us our own blindspots.


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## Nick (Nov 21, 2020)

Sasquatch said:


> As for ammo cost, when you're being attacked I'm sure that's the last thing on your mind.


I agree that ammo price is the last thing you would think about when you actually have to use the ammo. Unfortunately you have to buy those things in advance to prepare for a possible SHTF scenario so price would definitely factor in. The tens of thousands of rounds to run those MG's let alone the cost of the MG's would be very high. Depending on the size of the area it could be extremely high, and all for a potentially self destructive idea. This feels like a trolling post.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

And just where are you going to find machineguns?
Since Ronald Reagan signed the 1986 gun control act, machineguns are no longer allowed to be manufactured. Stock is limited to what was available in 1986.
Accordingly, prices for transferable Class 3 weapons are astronomical.
I just now checked a few Class 3 sites looking for belt fed machineguns, the ONLY ONE i could find today is a Model 1917A1 .30 caliber water cooled, w/accessories, for $21,995.

How old are you, anyway?


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Nick said:


> Depending on the size of the area it could be extremely high, and all for a potentially self destructive idea. This feels like a trolling post.


Hmmm. It appears some of you guys only have hard-sole shoes, you jabber loudly at night and only one of you has a jackknife. Heck, I have better stuff than that in my closet "just in case." And no old soldiers, just old motorcycle mechanics.

There will be a "day coming." And it's my guess that large groups of dangerous marauders will kill everyone for the few waffles you left on the grill. And we also discuss weaponry here--then again, I saw a biker beat a loud-mouth unconscious with a saloon chair. No combat training required.

Here's my point. I believe you can wear a Kevlar vest and be killed for a pack of hot-dogs. You can read adventure magazines until you even know that author's birthday. The end of times will provide lots of blood and the loss of friends. Polish your knife on your day off when you don't really need it done; bullies appear at the most unfortunate times.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Speaking of defensive positions and "fortified" houses, at this very moment I am reading (once again) War As I Knew It, by General George S. Patton Jr (1947, Houghton Mifflin).
Right there on page 251 we find just one of many of the great General's thoughts on fortifications:

"Pacifists would do well to study the Siegfried and Maginot Lines, remembering that these defenses were forced; that Troy fell; that the walls of Hadrian succumbed; that the Great Wall of China was futile; and that, by the same token, the mighty seas which are alleged to defend us can also be circumvented by a resolute and ingenious opponent. In war, the only sure defense is offense, and the efficiency of the offense depends on the warlike souls of those conducting it."


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

Son, does Mom know you're on the interwebs again?


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> And just where are you going to find machineguns?
> Since Ronald Reagan signed the 1986 gun control act, machineguns are no longer allowed to be manufactured. Stock is limited to what was available in 1986.
> Accordingly, prices for transferable Class 3 weapons are astronomical.
> I just now checked a few Class 3 sites looking for belt fed machineguns, the ONLY ONE i could find today is a Model 1917A1 .30 caliber water cooled, w/accessories, for $21,995.
> ...


I bought one belt gun in 1980, paid $450.00 for it, today it is worth $30,000 with its spares and accessories.

The ammo I have for is worth just as much.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

SOCOM42 said:


> Jebby, Never been in the military, huh?


Are you kidding? This boy hasn't been out of his Mommies basement long enough to have been in a fist fight. :vs_lol:


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## Btp2332 (Sep 23, 2020)

Just like that Jebby’s 8th post was his last.


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## Wedrownik (Sep 22, 2020)

Btp2332 said:


> Just like that Jebby's 8th post was his last.


He's busy digging the trenches?


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## Nick (Nov 21, 2020)

The Tourist said:


> Nick said:
> 
> 
> > Depending on the size of the area it could be extremely high, and all for a potentially self destructive idea. This feels like a trolling post.
> ...


What???????


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Nick said:


> What???????


Yes, Chico is an eccentric, but he's OUR eccentric.

(I personally know him, and he's OK)


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Yes, Chico is an eccentric, but he's OUR eccentric. (I personally know him, and he's OK)


Thank you--I guess. Here's the deal.

I guess I would find discussions sections to all be boring if there was a "group of royalty" who defined both all of the old and new ideas in this forum. Personally, I like discussions that show how our members think.

I also look for "tools" that help me in new ways. I found one just a few weeks ago. There are 3-inch folders, and there are 5-inch folders. So, naturally, I went out of my way to find a 4-inch folder. And guess what? This knife fits my hand like it was personally made for me.

In keeping with RPD's opinion, I believe that new and differing items should be discussed. Sure, not everyone is going to be thrilled, but I like to see new items and inventions that enhance our hobbies.

Here's my take on being eccentric. Most of my group has similar taste and collections. Many of them find forumites as "eccentric." To that, when a new hobbyist with diverse opinions comes to our forum, we ought to treat him royally and get his differing view on what he has found.


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## Whiskey08 (Jan 30, 2021)

JebbyNuLL said:


> In a large group (20+) you could dig a trench around your compound with mounted MG's creating a more defendable position. One person firing an MG could hold of maybe 10 people with the help of a marksman to pick off anyone sneaking around or behind cover. Ammo and cost would be the biggest problems, but other than that the better cover could let your group hold off larger groups. A no man's land could be set up with little cover and lots of barbed wire to slow the enemy down as well.


a 9 man infantry squad occupies a front of 120m, once you stop, you start preparing fighting positions and never stop. Hasty's-foxholes-trenches. number one in the priority of work is concealment then the positions. More important than trenches will be concealed interlocking positions. infantry 101


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

This thread is a hoot! read a few of the posts out loud to hubs and we both had a good chuckle. Thanks.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Whiskey08 said:


> a 9 man infantry squad occupies a front of 120m, once you stop, you start preparing fighting positions and never stop. Hasty's-foxholes-trenches. number one in the priority of work is concealment then the positions. More important than trenches will be concealed interlocking positions. infantry 101


When I was in field artillery, our plan was to lower the guns if we were attacked by East Bloc tanks and infantry. Put the elevation to zero, and shoot right into the charging tanks, and then run for our lives.

We would drop the spades, and back up so that they buried themselves, and put up camp netting.And that was about it. We weren't sloppy, we were just prepared to move. If a crew member was not in the gun, then they were guarding the gun with their M-16.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> When I was in field artillery, our plan was to lower the guns if we were attacked by East Bloc tanks and infantry. Put the elevation to zero, and shoot right into the charging tanks, and then run for our lives.
> 
> We would drop the spades, and back up so that they buried themselves, and put up camp netting.And that was about it. We weren't sloppy, we were just prepared to move. If a crew member was not in the gun, then they were guarding the gun with their M-16.


Did y'all have bee hive rounds?
Or did the Army do away with them after Vietnam.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I guess I'm an eccentric, too.
I'd much rather have a 100 year old Eddystone US Rifle Caliber 30 Model 1917 than any AR made.

By the way, Sgt York during his famous one man action against a German company used an M1917 and NOT a Springfield M1903 as Hollywood portrayed it.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Did y'all have bee hive rounds?
> Or did the Army do away with them after Vietnam.


We had HE fragmentation, I never fired a beehive, I heard about them and that is all. We did have nukes though, they were stored in a bunker in Geisen. And they would have been used, if the Russians had over run us. It would have taken the President to order that, or the Commander of American troops in Europe.


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## Whiskey08 (Jan 30, 2021)

great story about a 13 man recon unit during battle of the bulge, they were ordered to hold some ground. The unit was untrained in defense but armed with garands and arty they defeated a german ss para battalion, stopped that whole advance until they finally ran out of ammo and surrendered. 

If I had to go into the defense id definitely take the standoff of a Garand over current offerings. Garand- turning cover into concealment since 1936


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## Nick (Nov 21, 2020)

The Tourist said:


> Here's the deal.
> 
> I guess I would find discussions sections to all be boring if there was a "group of royalty" who defined both all of the old and new ideas in this forum. Personally, I like discussions that show how our members think.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of that. I just didn't understand what your first post meant, or why you posted it in my post. I thought I was part of the discussion. Anyways, carry on.......


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## danben (Mar 23, 2020)

I vaguely remember that somebody tried to defend their part of Europe by digging a trench. Went from the Belgian coast to the Swiss border. Actually, come to think of it, there were two trenches. Hmmm. I seem to remember that these guys in funny spike helmets overran one trench system in the spring of 1918. Then the guys in the helmets that looked a shaving basin invented these trucks with treads and cannon that could climb over or through trenches chased the guys with the funny spike helmets back to and through their trenches. Mmm. Oh yeah, I think it was called World War I. Maybe better to remain inconspicuous - probably cheaper and more effective. Not meaning any criticism. Just my two drachma.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

Hannibal crossed the Alps to strike out at Rome. And Hitlers Armies simply drove around the Maginot lines, to get at France. It is one thing to build a defense, and to use it in defense, but it can be flanked and defeated.

There has to be more than static defenses.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Whiskey08 said:


> great story about a 13 man recon unit during battle of the bulge, they were ordered to hold some ground. The unit was untrained in defense but armed with garands and arty they defeated a german ss para battalion, stopped that whole advance until they finally ran out of ammo and surrendered.
> 
> If I had to go into the defense id definitely take the standoff of a Garand over current offerings. Garand- turning cover into concealment since 1936


There is another story about a GI who held off a German rifle company alone with an M1 Garand,

he killed over half of the Germans before they got him.

When retaking the area the Battalion commander said he did a hell of a job,

but could not figure out where the hell he got all the ammo he turned into a pile of brass aside of him, was X? times his basic load.

Captured Germans told of what happened, the guy was deadly with that M1!

The Germans had called for a STuG to take him out, every time someone went to move forward he killed them.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I guess I'm an eccentric, too.
> I'd much rather have a 100 year old Eddystone US Rifle Caliber 30 Model 1917 than any AR made.
> 
> By the way, Sgt York during his famous one man action against a German company used an M1917 and NOT a Springfield M1903 as Hollywood portrayed it.


"Sgt York" I ain't seen that thar movie in a ***** age. I may have to watch that this afternoon. :tango_face_wink:


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

NMPRN said:


> Unless they've been watching too many WW-II movies, I don't think the bad guys are going to attack en masse, especially against a MG. They have a captive audience, I suspect they'd just snipe you off one at a time from 800 yards.


In the winter I can see 200 yards into my woods. 400 yards from property line to home.

In summer vision is limited to about 50 yards into the woods, but still about a 200 yard range looking from the woods


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

*This boy hasn't been out of his Mommies basement long enough to have been in a fist fight.*

You're going to have to enlighten me. What is this "fist fight" you mention here? Does one of your fists fight with the other? Please don't tell me this came in from France! It sounds like a 'French' thing if you ask me.

Sorry for the questioning. I'm just an old biker and we never used fists--just chairs, sections of the bar, those old cut glass ash-trays and once, a door bouncer they hired.

All kidding aside, if you ever saw my hands you wouldn't find a scar or one crooked finger. Heck, it was the 1960s...


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

The Tourist said:


> *This boy hasn't been out of his Mommies basement long enough to have been in a fist fight.*
> 
> You're going to have to enlighten me. What is this "fist fight" you mention here? Does one of your fists fight with the other? Please don't tell me this came in from France! It sounds like a 'French' thing if you ask me.
> 
> ...


If you ain't got at least some scars on your hands, you didn't wrench your own bike. I have some scars and a large vulgar vocabulary as a result of my years of owning a motersickle. Granted I was not a biker, only a motorbike enthusiast.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> Hannibal crossed the Alps to strike out at Rome. And Hitlers Armies simply drove around the Maginot lines, to get at France. It is one thing to build a defense, and to use it in defense, but it can be flanked and defeated.
> 
> There has to be more than static defenses.


Static warfare happens when you want to defend some piece of land,

a determined enemy will overrun the defenses if they are willing to pay the price.

That price can be high, the battle for Okinawa cost us 50,000 casualties with around 12,500 KIA!!!!!

Iwo Jima cost us almost 7,000 dead and a total of 26,000 casualties.

I don't expect to engage with any dedicated force like the US Marines.

More likely it would be either a group of scavengers gathered together,

or one of the **** gangs out foraging from the big city for soft targets.

I don't think they would stick around if brought under heavy fire, for what purpose??

You need a backhoe.

I am right in between two big cities, 30 miles to either of them.

There are thousand of soft targets to plunder before they get near me.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

SOCOM42 said:


> Static warfare happens when you want to defend some piece of land,
> 
> a determined enemy will overrun the defenses if they are willing to pay the price.
> 
> ...


It was just an example and for conversations sake that I brought up Hannibal. I gotta say, I admire the guy because of his generalship.
If I-ever have to defend myself and my home, from those barbarians of Antifa, I am going to use cover if I can.
And if it looks like they are about to torch the place, like I said before I will charge them. And I will do my best to leave dead bodies as I shoot and move.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

MisterMills357 said:


> It was just an example and for conversations sake that I brought up Hannibal. I gotta say, I admire the guy because of his generalship.
> If I-ever have to defend myself and my home, from those barbarians of Antifa, I am going to use cover if I can.
> And if it looks like they are about to torch the place, like I said before I will charge them. And I will do my best to leave dead bodies as I shoot and move.


Oh, I understood that, there are many examples of brilliant strategies, both in the assault and defense.

My father in law now passed, fought on Okinawa, the Japs used hundreds of tombs for defense fortifications,

each one had to be cleaned out, usually a flame thrower backed by rifle or machine gun fire, some with satchel charges.

The action against one of those tombs gave him a colostomy bag and a year in a hospital in Hawaii.

The man had brass balls, he was a China Marine before the war started,

went in with First as a squad leader on Guadalcanal, purple heart and a silver star for the Tenaru.

Recovered in time for Okinawa, another purple heart.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

SOCOM42 said:


> Oh, I understood that, there are many examples of brilliant strategies, both in the assault and defense.
> 
> My father in law now passed, fought on Okinawa, the Japs used hundreds of tombs for defense fortifications,
> 
> ...


The Japanese used a lot of bad strategy, they would fill an island with troops and then leave them there.
They did not value life, they valued made up doctrines like Bushido; and they had a made up religion called Shinto.
Wherein the emperor was a god, but only one of many. They were really messed up, and it took two A bombs to get them to surrender.

Your father in law was a real man, America still has some of them left, but I wonder just how many. A colostomy bag is a high price to pay, but when you get into a firefight, it happens. You never know how it will go.

I want to be like him, if it ever gets to point of civil wars, or raging riots.


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## HochwaldJager (Aug 31, 2017)

Well, lots to say about that.... I guess during a Zombie mad rush when you have a LMTV full of linked ammo you found on side of the street that would do. Still need cover on your flanks and rear though....
I’ll take 10 descent shooters with “The oohhh so scary black gun” over any style of MG any day of the week. Remember MGs are manly used for suppressing fire not much although capable on precision shots.


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