# How we can descend into violence



## Nathan Jefferson (May 11, 2013)

Great article, and very timely (even a couple of weeks of prognostication? )

In light of the couple of other threads - you have to read this!!! What happens when EBT goes crazy?

Bracken: When The Music Stops ? How America?s Cities May Explode In Violence | Western Rifle Shooters Association


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## scramble4a5 (Nov 1, 2012)

A very good article. We have already seen small cases of this scenario. I hope we never see it in full force.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

When the music stops turn out the lights. 
Nice a Jim Morrison quote.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Good read.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

That too.
A very realistic scenario of how things can spin out of control.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Is there a way that could prevent the cascade of events? if the vigilantes struck as soon as the police should would it cause the same escalation?
I think it would, and I see no way around it when it begins. There is no way to morally prevent crime.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

The article is a joke. It kinda started out as somewhat plausible, but went right down the crapper in a hurry. 

Ex-military death squads in pickups? They preplot elevated firing positions that are within 200-300 yards of every intersection, then stand ready to roll at a minute's notice? They use one word code phrases to communicate? These ex special forces guys use bipods on their ARs even though they are shooting from behind sandbags? Pathetic.

Reality check: yer not gonna have a clear field of fire prone in the back of a pickup from 200-300 yards out. There are parked cars, cars moving and abandoned in the street, and the bad guys are behind barricades. In a no-law situation, you WILL have everyone on that block lighting your ass up from second story windows and roofs. Your nice pickup will look like Sonny's car at the toll booth in the Godfather in about 30 seconds.

Good thing the bad guys all use handguns and nonzeroed AKs. Interesting that the author assumes all the cops are either too tired to bother or would take hours to assemble a SWAT team. Interesting that the National Guard is nowhere in sight.

If you think this is in any way realistic, come try that shit in my neighborhood and see how far you get. But put your affairs in order first... you won't be around long enough to form a mob.


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

Interesting article. The author, Matt Bracken, is one helluva writer, and I've read some of his work before. Very plausible, though it does suffer from a few issues. In this one, I feel that he makes many assumptions that aren't necessarily true. Gangs/flash mobs only using close to medium range weapons for instance. While I'll agree, that is probably quite plausable, there are more than a few former military members in these gangs, and it'd likely that they could adapt to the changing scenario. Either way, I'll agree that while the Government will fail to stop the mobs, they will go after the more successful vigilantes with a vengeance.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

I have to say I agree with all the comments I read more than with the article it's self in any way. I especially like and agree with our polite society being a "thin veneer". Most "experts" agree inner city normalcy will last 72 hours. Then people are going hungry. Hungry people do desperate things. People hungry enough will become unpredictable wild animals. Simple self preservation instincts take over, and I'm afraid I'll disagree all day long with those who say humans at their core are well meaning "good" creatures.  I've seen 43 years of evidence proving otherwise. If a human is being "good". It's because they stand to gain personally somehow. Wish it weren't true. But...


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Human are not basically good creatures. The veneer of civility is only at best skin deep. Just look at what happens in Africa on an almost daily basis. This weekend's EBT crisis only goes to prove that things are really out of control. The program was set up to help folks get past a short term problem. It's now a "Benefit" provided to the "poor" from the "rich" I'm terribly sorry that there are not enough jobs for the folks that want them. I'm sorry that everything the feds have done in the last 50 years has been to make sure that jobs don't exist. And I'm really P- -ded that my money (taxes) are paying for two clueless thugs/thuggettes king/queen life style. As far as the scenario that the author predicts, one only has to take a look at Katrina and what happened in New Orleans. Not a pretty sight. But it was isolated. the EBT this past weekend was in 17 states. Yes it could happen. And two weeks food supply in a family's home is optimistic. My guess is that it's less than a week at best


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

SARGE7402 said:


> Human are not basically good creatures. The veneer of civility is only at best skin deep. Just look at what happens in Africa on an almost daily basis. This weekend's EBT crisis only goes to prove that things are really out of control. The program was set up to help folks get past a short term problem. It's now a "Benefit" provided to the "poor" from the "rich" I'm terribly sorry that there are not enough jobs for the folks that want them. I'm sorry that everything the feds have done in the last 50 years has been to make sure that jobs don't exist. And I'm really P- -ded that my money (taxes) are paying for two clueless thugs/thuggettes king/queen life style. As far as the scenario that the author predicts, one only has to take a look at Katrina and what happened in New Orleans. Not a pretty sight. But it was isolated. the EBT this past weekend was in 17 states. Yes it could happen. And two weeks food supply in a family's home is optimistic. My guess is that it's less than a week at best


It's hard to say I "like" your post. But it's all true imo. I don't think I'm being paranoid to say this EBT thing was done on purpose either. Did the government want to see for themselves what would happen? No. I think they're already fully aware. As hard as it is to think a politician did something like this....  I think they did it as a reality check for the people. Still not a good idea to put it in major media to much, because somebody will start crying "racism", or "profiling", or worse! How did it happen?!? If liberals found out it WAS a test, HOLY COW! :shock: Then it'd REEEAAAALLLLLY hit fan!!!


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

Nice article. Quite a bit of truth mixed in with pure fantasy and speculation. I think the beginning is accurate but the end is story telling. However, with that said, suburban neighborhood will be defended. I'm sure the government will suspend 2a like Katrina (and many if not most will give in to it), the media will side with the poor and the police will indeed be overwhelmed but the national guard will step in. They may not be able to handle some of it though. Snipers in trucks? Fantasy. Vigilantly going out to interdict? Fantasy. Will there be vigilantism? Sure. However most of any action will be in defense of our neighborhoods. 

Reason to be prepared? Definitely.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

There are some good aspect of the article on point in possibilities and others not. I think a National Guard response and inner city lockdown will happen much faster and smaller communities will have meetings where police and community volunteers will form a protective force much faster, big government be damned. The vigilante response to such mobs is certainly a reality while it may or may not go down at times as he proposed in the article. Tactics are formed around an environment. Overall it was a good article of theories I thought.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

It's more accurate I think to say people have both light and dark sides and are capable of letting either run free at times and people by choice decide which to let at each moment. We all do things we regret, but there are quite a lot of people that actively choose and work to be good people while others choose to be bad without concern for their actions. It's never a simple one sided aspect of human nature and actions.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

It's funny how many on a prepper forum would think such actions as people behaving so badly or that some people would stop at nothing if given the chance. Call it profiling, racist or what ever but history has shown what does happen and good people die believing that people are not going to do bad crap. I hope more people would react as the story unfolds, reality shows many innocent people dying because they waited for someone else to save them. To those who are planning on banding together, make sure you check for liberals, lawyers, politicians, bleeding hearts and lazy people, yes you must profile if you want to survive and some so called good people may loose out but that's not such a bad thing for those that live through it. When it comes to making those hard decisions, just stop and think why most of the bad crap happens and who really allows/promotes it, then double tap and move on.


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

> To those who are planning on banding together, make sure you check for liberals, lawyers, politicians, bleeding hearts and lazy people, yes you must profile if you want to survive and some so called good people may loose out but that's not such a bad thing for those that live through it. When it comes to making those hard decisions, just stop and think why most of the bad crap happens and who really allows/promotes it, then double tap and move on.


Prepper tool list:

1. Liberal, lawyer, politician, bleeding heart, lazy bastard extraction tool. Check.









:mrgreen:


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Looting? Sure. Rioting? Probably. The rest of it... not gonna happen, at least not like that.

The author divided gun owners into 3 categories. The poor minorities who seem more concerned with raping white woman than eating. They can't shoot well, but don't really care where their bullets go. Obviously , handguns and AKs are only used by criminals and should be outlawed.

Then we have the blood-crazed ex-military types who use the dreaded ARs to form death squads. In the end, they wear masks and steal cars to carry out their program of genocide. Obviously AR-15s are dangerous and should be outlawed before this happens!

Lastly we have the millions of hunters with scoped rifles who are all capable of the same kind of mayhem, but at 1,000 yards or more. Though lacking in details, the implication is that this group is even more dangerous than the vets with ARs. Obviously, scoped rifles are dangerous and should be banned!

It is a fairly well written shill piece, I'll give them that. Nobody ever claimed the anti-gun crowd are all stupid. The article follows a classic pattern: present some actual or plausible information to gain the reader's trust, then take it into the La La Land of fantasy and the sheeple will assume that's true too. Create a post that, on the surface, makes you look like you support something, while actually painting all gun owners as homicidal maniacs who need to be stopped. Bravo!


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

Prepadoodle said:


> It is a fairly well written shill piece, I'll give them that. Nobody ever claimed the anti-gun crowd are all stupid. The article follows a classic pattern: present some actual or plausible information to gain the reader's trust, then take it into the La La Land of fantasy and the sheeple will assume that's true too. Create a post that, on the surface, makes you look like you support something, while actually painting all gun owners as homicidal maniacs who need to be stopped. Bravo!


You obviously have no idea who Matthew Bracken is, or you wouldn't be including him with the anti-gun crowd.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

If, instead of fantasy, you want a look at how it would really go down...

When 'assault weapons' saved Koreatown

During the 1992 LA riots, Korean businessmen formed militias and defended their neighborhoods. Some 500 rounds were fired, mostly into the air. Only 4 looters were killed. There were no roving death squads, no genocide... only responsible gun owners using their 2nd amendment rights to defend their property... the way it was designed to work.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Yeah, I know who he is. He's that ex-SEAL who likes to write sensationalist stuff in order to sell books.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Prepadoodle said:


> If, instead of fantasy, you want a look at how it would really go down...
> 
> When 'assault weapons' saved Koreatown
> 
> During the 1992 LA riots, Korean businessmen formed militias and defended their neighborhoods. Some 500 rounds were fired, mostly into the air. Only 4 looters were killed. There were no roving death squads, no genocide... only responsible gun owners using their 2nd amendment rights to defend their property... the way it was designed to work.


It was found after the riots were over that many of the businesses that were burned to the ground supposedly by looters and rioters were actually burnt down by the owners to collect the insurance money.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

He is radical and I have read one of his books and like many survival type authors, their books can be summed up in; White people ban together, Mexicans and Blacks become murderous roving gangs, and the government is out to kill everyone.

Enemies Foreign and Domestic Web Site


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

You know what? It was wrong of me to accuse anyone of being a government plant. I don't know the guy, I can't get in his head and know his motivations. So OK, let's give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

The fact remains that his article is pure Hollywood BS. The fact remains that it paints all gun owners as homicidal maniacs. The fact remains that the idea of death squads in pickups is ridiculous and wouldn't work anyway. One would think an ex-SEAL would have a better grasp of tactics than that... which leads me to wonder just what the hell he is trying to do with his article. I'll leave it at that and let you all decide for yourselves.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

Prepadoodle said:


> If, instead of fantasy, you want a look at how it would really go down...
> 
> When 'assault weapons' saved Koreatown
> 
> During the 1992 LA riots, Korean businessmen formed militias and defended their neighborhoods. Some 500 rounds were fired, mostly into the air. Only 4 looters were killed. There were no roving death squads, no genocide... only responsible gun owners using their 2nd amendment rights to defend their property... the way it was designed to work.


That's freaking AWESOME!!! Great article!

Makes me wonder, in more common areas of the country what would be the divider? In "average town / city USA" what would people use to band together if not race? It's the obvious divider in prisons (example of a lower form of society). The idea of using race to form a community... :/ Look at people like DEMCAD from Youtube. I'd trust that guy to have my back more than 99 in 100 white people I can think of. So, using race. FAIL.

Should we as "preppers" cumulatively put together a litmus test for post SHTF?


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

BigCheeseStick said:


> That's freaking AWESOME!!! Great article!
> 
> Makes me wonder, in more common areas of the country what would be the divider? In "average town / city USA" what would people use to band together if not race? It's the obvious divider in prisons (example of a lower form of society). The idea of using race to form a community... :/ Look at people like DEMCAD from Youtube. I'd trust that guy to have my back more than 99 in 100 white people I can think of. So, using race. FAIL.
> 
> Should we as "preppers" cumulatiely put together a litmus test for post SHTF?


In a word yes; You must/should profile based on how they lived before the shtf, their talk, and their actions after the shtf. color, race what ever is not the sole deciding factor, but it must be considered, keep your eyes and ears open to all things and act/respond accordingly. I would call it common sense and the will to survive.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

I'll ask somebody else start the thread as I think it should be something EVERYONE involved in the forum should participate in, and expect a few members are still pouting / holding a grudge over hearing less than stellar facts I've shared on AR's.   

Why _not_ at least try to form a post SHTF Litmus test though? Could be a great tool for us all!

The most obvious questions. "Have you "had to" kill anyone pre or post SHTF? Why?", "What skills can you use to help in the group?"


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

BigCheeseStick said:


> Makes me wonder, in more common areas of the country what would be the divider? In "average town / city USA" what would people use to band together if not race?


I obviously can't speak for everyone, but around here it's simple... neighborhood. I live in what's considered a tough neighborhood. When I moved here 3 years ago, it was fairly common to hear gunshots at night. The local grocery store has an armed guard on duty all the time. Police are slow to respond to calls from around here, if they bother to show up at all.

My neighborhood could be the poster child for ethnic diversity, but there is one thing we all have in common: none of us want to be robbed, killed, or raped.

So we formed a neighborhood watch. We train. We open carry and police our own streets... and it works.

We are proactive, not reactive. People now know better than to start some crap around here. Crime is down. I can't remember the last time I heard gunshots around here. Bullies like to prey on the weak, all it takes is a show of unity and force and they go somewhere else.

We are a "well regulated militia," took back our streets, and managed to do it without shooting anyone.


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> He is radical and I have read one of his books and like many survival type authors, their books can be summed up in; White people ban together, Mexicans and Blacks become murderous roving gangs, and the government is out to kill everyone.
> 
> Enemies Foreign and Domestic Web Site


Interesting observation, as the main character in the first two books is of Arab decent, and multiple supporting (good guy) characters across his books are non-whites. I'll grant you that he is a radical; he could also be called a visionary, as his books have become almost prophetic at times. I made a point of ordering _Enemies Foreign and Domestic_ for this deployment, most to just loan out. Everybody that has read it has said "it'll make you mad, and then make you think".

The article mentioned here is a very sensationalized version of what could happen. He's a writer, and he's going to jump to the most "dramatic" conclusions. Over all though, he's spot on. When the government (any government) fails to stop crime, (creating a power vacuum) the people being victimized either leave, endure it, or fight back (filling the power vacuum). If they choose to fight back, they will suddenly become a threat to the government's power (or, a threat to society by taking such "horrible" actions). It has happened before, and it will happen again. Off the top of my head, the Vigilanteeism in California around the time of the gold rush comes to mind.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

BigCheeseStick said:


> I'll ask somebody else start the thread as I think it should be something EVERYONE involved in the forum should participate in, and expect a few members are still pouting / holding a grudge over hearing less than stellar facts I've shared on AR's.
> 
> Why _not_ at least try to form a post SHTF Litmus test though? Could be a great tool for us all!
> 
> The most obvious questions. * "Have you "had to" kill anyone pre or post SHTF? Why?",*"What skills can you use to help in the group?"


I will say up front "NO" I haven't, so I'm sure most will say I'm not qualified to express my opinions, but I will say this, how many had the same view before they had to kill someone as they have after having killed someone. We will never know for sure until that time comes, but if in your mind/heart that question of what will you do when it is staring you in the face and you question yourself, your probably going to die. In my mind the question has already been answered, I plan on living.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Alpha-17 said:


> Interesting observation, as the main character in the first two books is of Arab decent, and multiple supporting (good guy) characters across his books are non-whites. I'll grant you that he is a radical; he could also be called a visionary, as his books have become almost prophetic at times. I made a point of ordering _Enemies Foreign and Domestic_ for this deployment, most to just loan out. Everybody that has read it has said "it'll make you mad, and then make you think".
> 
> The article mentioned here is a very sensationalized version of what could happen. He's a writer, and he's going to jump to the most "dramatic" conclusions. Over all though, he's spot on. When the government (any government) fails to stop crime, (creating a power vacuum) the people being victimized either leave, endure it, or fight back (filling the power vacuum). If they choose to fight back, they will suddenly become a threat to the government's power (or, a threat to society by taking such "horrible" actions). It has happened before, and it will happen again. Off the top of my head, the Vigilanteeism in California around the time of the gold rush comes to mind.


Did you read, "Domestic Enemies, The Reconquista?"

How about James Wesley Rawles?

Andrew MacDonald?


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

ekim said:


> I will say up front "NO" I haven't, so I'm sure most will say I'm not qualified to express my opinions, but I will say this, how many had the same view before they had to kill someone as they have after having killed someone. We will never know for sure until that time comes, but if in your mind/heart that question of what will you do when it is staring you in the face and you question yourself, your probably going to die. In my mind the question has already been answered, I plan on living.


I wouldn't see a "Yes" answer as a negative at all. Be it pre, or post SHTF. I'd just want to look them in the eye when they tell the story. And if the answer IS "No", I'd want to look them in the eye when asked. "Are you ready to if needed?". Your answer of "I plan on living" is about as good as anything I'd wanna hear!


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> Did you read, "Domestic Enemies, The Reconquista?"
> 
> How about James Wesley Rawles?
> 
> Andrew MacDonald?


First two, yes, MacDonald, no. I can see the point you're trying to make with "_The Reconquista_". That said, you're also forgetting that there were more than a few "good guy"/sympathetic Hispanic characters in that one too. The Hispanic Crypto-Jew for instance?

Anyway, we're getting off topic, something that has been happening a bit recently. There is a thread specifically on the Enemies Trilogy. If you haven't already, you should include your opinions there. You've got an interesting take on his books, I'll say that much. :mrgreen:


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

I call BS on drivers shooting till they run out of ammunition then being pulled out of their vehicles. You fire on the mob they scatter. If you have a five shot revolver you'll still have three shots on tap as they are beating feet.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Just an observation here - Fox 13, Salt Lake City, has obtained a letter from the Dept of Agriculture informing the states to be ready for SNAP (food stamps) to be shut off nationwide on Nov 1st. Just google fox 13 utah, it was on the front page today.
We may get to see how it all plays out in the urban areas.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Just an observation here - Fox 13, Salt Lake City, has obtained a letter from the Dept of Agriculture informing the states to be ready for SNAP (food stamps) to be shut off nationwide on Nov 1st. Just google fox 13 utah, it was on the front page today.
> We may get to see how it all plays out in the urban areas.


Looks like nobama wants to see some blood shed to prove a point over whose really in power if this really happens


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Alpha-17 said:


> First two, yes, MacDonald, no. I can see the point you're trying to make with "_The Reconquista_". That said, you're also forgetting that there were more than a few "good guy"/sympathetic Hispanic characters in that one too. The Hispanic Crypto-Jew for instance?
> 
> Anyway, we're getting off topic, something that has been happening a bit recently. There is a thread specifically on the Enemies Trilogy. If you haven't already, you should include your opinions there. You've got an interesting take on his books, I'll say that much. :mrgreen:


True and I forgot that the main character was half Arab too. I was generalizing but Rowels tends to lean in that direction because he is pushing a lot of his ideology and religion in his books.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Just an observation here - Fox 13, Salt Lake City, has obtained a letter from the Dept of Agriculture informing the states to be ready for SNAP (food stamps) to be shut off nationwide on Nov 1st. Just google fox 13 utah, it was on the front page today.
> We may get to see how it all plays out in the urban areas.


I did three diferant Google searches for this and found nothing, post in link to story???


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

alterego said:


> I did three diferant Google searches for this and found nothing, post in link to story???


FOX13Now.com
Look for the story about Utah families on food stamps. It is there right now - 10:05 PM Eastern time, Oct 15, 2013.

Sheesh! I'm a computer dummy and went right to it.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

alterego said:


> I did three diferant Google searches for this and found nothing, post in link to story???


Here is a direct link

Utah families on food stamps could be cut off soon | FOX13Now.com


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

North Carolina first state to cut welfare amid shutdown

Business & Financial News, Breaking US & International News | Reuters.com

I cannot make the link to the article work. Instead I put up the home page, open that and on the left hand side find the story headline and go from there.

Things are getting interesting.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> North Carolina first state to cut welfare amid shutdown
> 
> Business & Financial News, Breaking US & International News | Reuters.com
> 
> ...


Here is the link:

North Carolina is first state to cut welfare amid federal shutdown | Reuters

Interesting read, thanks


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

John Bohner said the gubbermint should be up and running tomorrow.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Yep! it comes down to doing what the president wants and to hell with compromise. 
I sure am glad that there were no more infringements of our rights involved - that could start a civil war.


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## Nathan Jefferson (May 11, 2013)

PaulS said:


> Yep! it comes down to doing what the president wants and to hell with compromise.
> .


yeah, from what I'm reading it sounds like we would have come out ahead if they would have just lifted the ceiling no questions asked. Instead they lifted the ceiling, gave concessions, and made it much harder for them to ever stop another ceiling increase... wtf... "We are taking a stand, and going to lose more than you could ever imagine when we run away like little cry babies!" F-U Boner!


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

Well, it looks like we'll be temporarily open for a couple of months. The can has been kicked down the pothole filled road.


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