# Ethics question



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

So the S has HTF. It's been a some months and things have settled down.
According to ham radio or other emergency radio, there is no aid coming.
From your own recon, you know the area except for a few people is more or 
less a dead zone. You decide to go door to door in your area to see if
anyone is left alive and see if you can perhaps join forces to some degree. 

You find that there are only two other small families, who like you were preppers.
Cautiously you and the other families have a meeting and come to terms on
helping each other. 

Now the ethics question. You know for a fact all the other homes are empty. 
Either because they left to find government help or they are dead. Would you 
search the houses for usable things that your new alliance needs? Would you 
consider yourself to be a looter? Explain your answer.

While I hope I can survive long enough for the world to return to semblance of
normalcy, I know that I might not have sufficient stores if it were a global 
catastrophic SHTF event. I am working one becoming self sufficient, food wise,
it will take me a while to learn the ways of raising food in my new area, Arizona.
Around me are lots of homes with solar systems on their roofs. There are lots 
of homes with swimming pools to catch the barely 11 inches of annual rainfall that 
I would need to cultivate crops. I can't think of anything except the water and
possibly additional food supplies that might be left in abandoned houses that I 
might need. I can't see myself as a looter at this time frame of a SHTF event.
But I can see myself as a scavenger.

What is your take?


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

if it is abandoned then it is yours for the taking. I mean if the house you are scavenging from is a neighbor, take what you need but be respectful and dont ransack the place. take only water, food and meds and try to secure the place once you got what you need to survive. if you start taking the man's TV and non essentials, then I consider that looting. if you are taking what you need to survive, thats survival


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

After that amount of time, I wouldn't worry about it. Scrounge what you can use or barter (booze for instance). Cache what you can so all your eggs are not in one basket. There may be items that are good to use now but may spoil down the road. This allows you to keep long term storage items for later use. I see no point in leting anything go to waste especially if the previous owner is dead. Priorities are survival for your family and your self and those neighbors that you have made an alliance with. I would be quiet about it just in case the neighbors are squealers when or if normalcy returns.


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## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

Would you starve while the whole time there could be a can of beans in the cupboard? Can't rebuild society when you're dead.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

First target is the neighbors Lamborghini... 


Just kidding! 

Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) my neighbors are all country folks and would not be heading for femaville. If they did I would definitely be scavenging their property. Note that this only applies to the real deal shtf. If said neighbors were to return I would compensate. 

I would consider abandoned property up for grabs. It's not looting when the owners are gone or dead. I would not make them dead though. I would do my best to keep them from death.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Procession is 9/10s of the law. If you get back in time I "MAY" share some of what's left, IF YOUR NICE. Otherwise tough $hit. The next guy/group would have taken it. So what's the problem, you left it unguarded.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

If no aid is coming and there is no civilized areas left no supply chain and grid - in other words the reset button was pushed - if no one was there or worse had happened - I would secure the area and take what was needed. I would establish safe houses and stash stuff in places to ensure survival. If by some stroke of luck an owner made it back I would join up with them show my set up to them and get them established. Together we could keep the area secure and start foraging runs to secure more essentials. We would set up communication protocols with call signs to ensure we knew who was where when and leave messages for each other. There would be lots to organize. But Ya for sure I would secure the area and cache stuff so it was spread out over the neighbourhood. Nothing of use would appear to be left for stragglers and looters passing through. So they move on.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I wouldn't hesitate to loot a house if I was sure the owners were gone and not coming back. I wouldn't smash anything, but certainly take all I could use. Survival demands we cross some lines we wouldn't ordinarily cross.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Why do we always have to bring race into everything? I mean is the food watermelon, fried chicken, collards and stuff?


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Won't loot abandoned until really have to. Seems like a sad affirmation.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Assuming long distance travel is limited (which I imagine it would be so no children likely to show up to claim the property) and there is no one locally who can make a strong family claim to the property while I would still be a little uncomfortable I would claim what I think may help my group survive. Heck,,, I'd claim what I felt I could defend including things I saw no immediate use for but only if I could defend what I claimed. 80 acres 20 minutes away is almost impossible to defend; what you can haul to your place can be defended along with absorbing the immediate property into you own..

It's either you get it or the looters who are just looking for easy gain so make scavenging unprofitable for any looters by taking any potentially useful items. Protect your family and your moral ideas to pass to the new world that would eventually develop.

If you feel bad about this leave a piece of cake on the road for the looters. Let those who weren't interested in thinking ahead reap the bounty of their limited forthought.

Rough sounding I know but in a survival situation with limited resources.....


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Assuming long term SHTF scenario and they have left for good or are dead I would consider it scavanging not looting. Take what is needed only. It's a matter of survival at that point.


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

oddapple said:


> Won't loot abandoned until really have to. Seems like a sad affirmation.


Even with ample stores, I would scavenge. Like the others, I wouldn't destroy things, but I would take items that could help me and others. In that scenario, you never know what you might have run out of....or now need items you never imagined. And scavenging now, while many shelf items are still good, will help to bolster what you already have. If the previous owners are dead or long gone, why let those items go to waste?


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

After the period of time given, IMO it's not looting, it's scavenging. Try to do the least amount of damage possible to the house itself, but I would take anything useful that I might need. In all likelihood if the owners aren't back by then, they aren't coming back. If you don't use it, it will simply go to waste. IMO taking things from an abandoned house is no worse then if in a SHTF situation you come upon a van loaded with food, ammo, and supplies that has been wrecked in a ditch, no one alive anywhere, so you help yourself to whatever in side that you want. Feel sorry for the original owner and thankful for your good luck.


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## GTGallop (Nov 11, 2012)

I think the key to your answer is "some months." People who loot take advantage of a SHTF scenario to capitalize on the pandemonium before the authorities re-establish order. Usually 3 to 5 days. Sometimes 2 weeks.

But if you are looking for resources not because you have a timeline to beat but because there seems to be no timeline, then I say you are fine. In my mind a fully functioning US government would have made its presence physically known in 7 days - maybe not restoring order but you would see choppers and some sort of authority. After two months? Three months? You are safe in assuming total government failure to respond and go looking for the goods you need to live.

Like others said, be respectful, take what you need, and when your neighbor comes back, be prepared to return what you borrowed. But ethically - you are the law at that point and your jurisdiction is what you can see and what can see you. So be fair and just.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

My main first objective would be to discern if they were in fact "gone". The owners may have sensed your arrival and hid out, . . . not knowing or recognizing you or at least some others with you.

Once I discerned they were "gone", . . . then it becomes a matter of "what is here that I can use and transport today?" Those items would come home with me. I would also leave certain things in a certain way so that the next time I went back, . . . I could tell if there had been a presence.

I would also leave a hand written note telling my former neighbors that I am alive, . . . but only enough information that they (and not some outsider) could discern who it was and would then come to us.

There is a difference between the three terms: scavenging, . . . theft, . . . and looting. Reconciling that I am doing the first and avoiding the other two is necessary for me. This world is indeed not my home, as the song says, . . . and besides that, . . . ain't none of us getting out of this world alive.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

"But ethically - you are the law at that point and your jurisdiction is what you can see and what can see you. So be fair and just."

Historically, after doing one of these things, laws come out under whatever donkey restoration that people will "not be prosecuted for (how they survived the war)".
I don't see that this time. What nerves me about this war is that they will do all of it and then, instead of chasing leaders and war criminals, they will persecute survivors haplessly standing there hearing that they will b shot because spam cans they can't show a receipt for were found in their trash. 
That's dirty pool and I hope it's the opposite. There's just still too much darkness with right people handcuffed and leaders doing nothing.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

Unless I am short of something I desperately need, I am going to stick to my own land. Period. Then again, if we are at the country BOL there are like 5 houses within 4 miles of us so that's not really much of a challenge,


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

So to add another twist, suppose YOU are the homeowner who is going to bug-out early to a safe location, hopefully for the short term, or at least until you can assess the situation. How would you mark your house to let your neighbors know that you ARE coming back and your stuff is off limits? (Assuming you have respectful and moral neighbors like Paraquack.) Would you leave a note that says something like "If I'm not back in 3 months, it's all yours." Or "Leave my stuff alone or there will be hell to pay when I get back." Or. "My cameras are on and I'm watching you. Leave my stuff alone." 

I agree that if the house has been truly abandoned, the food and supplies could be scavanged without property damage. But just because the lights go out for a few weeks and the owner happens to be out of town at the time, doesn't give people the right to take stuff that isn't theirs. Eventually when things get back to normal, there may well be an accounting to deal with, either with the owners themselves or with heirs.

Another thought is to keep a list of what is "borrowed" from homes so that restitution could later be made if the owner returns and life gets back to normal.


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## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

RNprepper said:


> So to add another twist, suppose YOU are the homeowner who is going to bug-out early to a safe location, hopefully for the short term, or at least until you can assess the situation. How would you mark your house to let your neighbors know that you ARE coming back and your stuff is off limits? (Assuming you have respectful and moral neighbors like Paraquack.) Would you leave a note that says something like "If I'm not back in 3 months, it's all yours." Or "Leave my stuff alone or there will be hell to pay when I get back." Or. "My cameras are on and I'm watching you. Leave my stuff alone."
> 
> I agree that if the house has been truly abandoned, the food and supplies could be scavanged without property damage. But just because the lights go out for a few weeks and the owner happens to be out of town at the time, doesn't give people the right to take stuff that isn't theirs. Eventually when things get back to normal, there may well be an accounting to deal with, either with the owners themselves or with heirs.
> 
> Another thought is to keep a list of what is "borrowed" from homes so that restitution could later be made if the owner returns and life gets back to normal.


I am setting up to bug in. Period. If I am not in my house after SHTF, then the "event" was either serious enough that I was forced out, or I'm dead.

At that point, my stuff is fair game. If there is anyone still around my area, they have no clue if I'm dead or just "gone".

Do I like it? Hell friggin no!!! But there is nothing I can do about it. I'd rather have my food storage raided so my neighbor could survive. That way, maybe my some odd chance, my neighbor has kept the area up decently, for when/if I return. I just hope that my home is still intact and not damaged.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

paraquack said:


> It's been a some months and things have settled down.


If truly no help is coming, and it's been months with no electric, gas, food... Then what will happen is that there will be roving gangs of mostly younger men probably in a pickup truck, going from house to house looking for gasoline, booze, cigarettes, canned food, guns, ammo, women. You may have to shoot a few to convince them to look for an easier target. You are in a wealthy area, you will be a target to be looted. Hop in that plane of yours, fly it South-South East, land at the Lone Mountain International Airport, become a ranch hand...

*Rancher *


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Why are the house abandoned? Where did they all go? What happened to them? I think if this is something you are going to do, then at the very least leave a note explaining who you are, why you did what you did and what you took.


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## James L (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm not sure that I would leave a note. No need telling other people that might have the same idea as you what you took. Lets face it....if you have had no power for months, this is no longer SHTF....but TEOTWAWKI. At that point your survival supersedes taking a long gone home owners left over canned ham.


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## cdell (Feb 27, 2014)

If I was sure they weren't coming back or were dead I would take what food and supplies I could. I wouldn't smash up the place but I would take what was of use to ensure my families survival. How long I waited to do it would depend on the season since around our parts it gets really really cold in the winter and if their house isn't being heated at all any canned goods would freeze and break becoming useless in short order. By moving them to my location I would ensure that they are still useable untill either we needed them, the neighbors returned and could have it back in a useable state or I am dead and then they freeze.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

First - If there is no owner, you're not stealing.

Now - on the flip side:
I show up with my adult children and grand kids in your area to check on relatives to see if they are okay.
I enter their home and find it thoroughly ransacked and worse, it is vandalized so badly that staying a day or so to rest my family is not an option. 
(I would have no problem with the taking of needed supplies, food, tools, etc. Maybe you feel bad. But you weren't "wrong")

... You encounter me as we are leaving... _____________.

Ethics are not situational.
Either you are ethical or you are not.
Remember - if there is no owner you are not stealing.
You cannot know if relatives show up are really relatives or people who just collected enough intel from books and pics to sound impressive.

Regardless of the encounter - If there is no owner, you're not stealing. You're still ethical. You took something that was once in someone's property.
Looting is different than plunder or pillage or booty... or even scavenging.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Worst case, I'm making "Free Food" signs and eating those who come to collect.

"But dude, your sign said free food!"

"Ummm, it is free food, just not for you! Bwaaahahahahahaha!!"


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Chances are not knowing what to do, they may never have left and simply starved in their homes, be prepared to find bodies.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Slippy said:


> Why do we always have to bring race into everything? I mean is the food watermelon, fried chicken, collards and stuff?


My bad, I thought the OP was about* ethNics* but I realize now it was *ethics!* Disregard my earlier post...:very_drunk:


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

ethically, I see no problem with scavenging, and it is probably necessary.

However,if you are talking a society where most people have left or died, I would say that there will be a double standard out there.

You are a survivor, it is very likely you have developed a shoot first mentality for anyone scavenging(maybe based on the actions of looters). Others might do the same with you.


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## 7515 (Aug 31, 2014)

Short answer - Yes, if it was abandoned I would help myself to what I thought I needed now and in the future.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

Seneca said:


> Chances are not knowing what to do, they may never have left and simply starved in their homes, be prepared to find bodies.


And lots of abandoned pets.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

Unfortunately, I think a lot of pets would end up dying off fairly quickly, being unable to open the cat food cans or dog food cans. From what I've seen in my area, a lot of people would "release" their pets to fend for themselves. Based on what happened in Africa during famine, the the big dogs will form packs and predate the smaller pets. One thing I read about the dogs in Africa was that since they had now fear of humans, they would actually lure people into an ambush and then the whole pack would attack and kill them for food. African officials said that any stray in the famine area should be treated as immediate threat, and be put down.


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## littleblackdevil (Jun 29, 2013)

RNprepper said:


> And lots of abandoned pets.


Never thought of that. I'd have to check out places that looked empty just in case. Let the little guys out.


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## stillacitizen2 (Jan 30, 2015)

I would scavenge without question. There's a difference between scavenging and looting. Looting is taken goods by force or threat of force (criminal) during periods of civil unrest, rioting etc. If no one is there, the home has been abandoned, the occupants are gone, and in the foreseeable future, not coming back due to a long term "event", catastrophe or some other "intervention" in normal daily life (SHTF), then you are not using force to take their goods. Scavenging is salvaging useable materials. In some areas, particularly areas with lots of rain or moisture, and during the winter months, mold can ruin just about everything in an unheated home, quickly. I would rather not see things I could use or need, go to waste like that.

If you decide to ransack the house in the process, unnecessarily damage the home or its contents, set fire to it or perform some other unnecessary act of vandalism, then I would call that looting. In scavenging I am going to take precautions in entering the home. I am going to look for open/unlocked doors or windows, signs of forced entry (indicates someone has been/or is there) or someone "residing" in the home. We have this issue in my town with homeless "moving in" to homes that have been walked away from by their owners and are owned by the bank. 

If I need to force entry, I am going to do so causing a minimal amount of damage. I will also attempt to secure it when I leave. It's only fair. I will take only what I need or that can benefit the group. Things like food, water, medication, clothing, hygiene items/first aid supplies, tools, firearms and ammo (not leaving it for someone else to possibly use against me). I will not take things simply because "It's cool" or because "I always wanted one of those". If those people ever return, I want them to walk in and notice nothing more than some of their stuff missing. Should that happen, I would like to be able to return what I can. 

If you set parameters for yourself, and follow those parameters of moderation, if you're not needlessly damaging things, then you can make amends to them. Which means you survived. And that was the point.


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## warrior4 (Oct 16, 2013)

Looting is what we saw in Ferguson this past summer. Bands of unruly mobs breaking into stores and taking what they wanted due to social unrest and a mob mentality. Scavenging in this scenario is different and quite probably necessary. Using or re-using abandoned supplies means those supplies aren't going to waste and in a scenario where new supplies probably aren't being made anymore it'll do you good to get those things. However like other's have said scavenge for what you need, avoid damaging buildings, and keep yourself and those with you alive.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

It's been said, in one form or another, may times here already... but I'll say it again.

I will do what is necessary to keep my family alive. Period.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

littleblackdevil said:


> Never thought of that. I'd have to check out places that looked empty just in case. Let the little guys out.


not doing the little pets any favors - instant dog chow for the bigger breeds .... cats go feral faster than dogs - they will absolutely devastate the small game .... letting the big breeds loose is like releasing inmates from death row ....

not anything I'm looking forward to doing .... but I'll be carrying a .22 cal pistol just for the purpose


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## 1skrewsloose (Jun 3, 2013)

Depending on where you live, how close are your neighbors, etc., I think if abandoned, it would be first come first served. Lots of folks prep nothing. they'll be the first ones out looking for food while prepepers hunker down for a bit. jmo. Pickings may be slim, non preppers won't have much anyway.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Abandoned pets?
You mean meat on feet?


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

If their is a society to prosecute you.

You are a thief and looting.

If you are not detained and condemned by a court of your piers you are alive and free.

Those are the two options that have been present in all civil society.


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