# Best Handgun Caliber-A Real World Study



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

If you get a moment, check out the video below on Defense Expert, Greg Ellefrit'z real world 10 year study on Handgun Caliber Stopping Power. The age-old adage of "my handgun is for fighting my way back to my rife" rings true yet again.

Now where is my .454 Casull? :tango_face_smile:






Instructors | Active Response Training


----------



## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

Very interesting! I notice he didn't include 10MM or 357SIG I guess both are not used much compared to what is shown.
I have been carrying 357SIG for last 6 months and the hot rounds supposedly mirror 357MAG performance good
enough for me! Check out some of the Underwood ammo numbers!


----------



## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

SDF880 said:


> Very interesting! I notice he didn't include 10MM or 357SIG I guess both are not used much compared to what is shown.
> I have been carrying 357SIG for last 6 months and the hot rounds supposedly mirror 357MAG performance good
> enough for me! Check out some of the Underwood ammo numbers!


And I would agree. As I stated, the LEAA placed the Federal .357 Magnum at the top of the heap, and later the 357SIG proved to be very close.

Dornaus and Dixon sent me my first boxes of the Norma 10mm Auto when I got my Bren Ten, and the thing flattened primers like a hot load. They replaced the load and even stamped "NP" on the primers to show the client the load had been redesigned. I bought my own casting blocks which used a cherry to duplicate the 200 grain flat top the original Norma loads used. I still have the blocks, a four-ganger block from Hensley and Gibbs.


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

When it comes time to bug out I suppose I will just have to roll this out of the garage. One shot....definitely one kill :tango_face_grin:


----------



## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

The other part of this calculus is shot placement. A hit with a 22 is superior to a miss with a 45 colt. Having said that, it’s hard to beat a 357 mag with the proper ammo if we are talking common calibers.


----------



## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Yeah I agree no 10mm. Just because it wasn't used doesn't mean it's not the best. Funny how the FBI went to that after years of study. Wonder what they knew that others don't??


----------



## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

I would have to question their assessment of the .410 handgun. While it does fire 5, 00 buck pellets they will not be moving nearly as fast or have as much energy out of the short handgun barrel of a revolver. I am not saying it would not be effective, just that it would not likely be as effective as the maker of the video suggests.


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

300 Blackout AR pistol crushes all calibers mentioned.....:tango_face_wink:


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Comparing hand gun Vs Rifle/Shotgun is a waste . 357 revolver with the federal round long as been number 1 first round stop/kill. Even that does not make it the best option. Lot of information put out in the short video. It does prove you do not want to get shot.
10mm left out, 357 Sig left out just not worth looking at not many use them. Also remember in the 9mm numbers they said loud and clear results were effected by the use of Ball ammo. And as we know that is what most Gangsters shoot . And 9mm ball in most cases is 115. Take all the number all the could have, should haves and added them up 9mm shines .
Red that is not a hand gun by any real measurement other than ATF had to call it something.


----------



## Real Old Man (Aug 17, 2015)

Stopping Power Statistics

While this is all well and good it doesn't represent the number of shootings evaluated by Sannow and Marshall. For Just the .22 LR alone they documented almost 4,000 shootings.


----------



## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Real Old Man said:


> For Just the .22 LR alone they documented almost 4,000 shootings.


I remember reading about that in the mid 1980s in a handgun magazine. According to the magazine, the most number of kills by civilians were done with mouse-guns, like the .22LR, the .25 ACP and the .32 ACP.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> I remember reading about that in the mid 1980s in a handgun magazine. According to the magazine, the most number of kills by civilians were done with mouse-guns, like the .22LR, the .25 ACP and the .32 ACP.


 At one time those where pretty much the calibers people had. 32 was a big deal for awhile. heck LEO carried the 38 for a long time. I own a 25 auto. Likely a last resort but it could do the job. Have a real old 32 also. Wife great grand father use to drop cattle with it.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Chipper said:


> Yeah I agree no 10mm. Just because it wasn't used doesn't mean it's not the best. Funny how the FBI went to that after years of study. Wonder what they knew that others don't??


The FBI came up with the 10 mm to try to stymie the lawsuits after the FBI agents got killed in Floriddy. Because the agents were toting .38 snubbies and one had a Browning 9 mm...they had to pretend there were not better choices available. The shooters found the caliber too brutal to handle and it shot the guns apart. So here comes the 10 mm lite...aka .40 SW. Least thats what I heard. lol. From what I can gather a .357 Sig is just a .40 SW with a 9 mm bullet stuck in the hull. Big thanks to Uncle Slippy for sharing the movie. Only point I can find to differ on is what it takes for a pistol caliber to go through a vest. Little ex cop lady I used to work with came up with an FN brand which shoots litle .223 looking ammo. Supposed to got through there like hot knife through butter. Made out of mostly plastic..holds a bunch of ammo and not unpleasant to shoot. Should beat a hog leg .454 Causell for them with money and wanting to go through a vest.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I've got an old Colt revolver chambered in 32-20.
That is one 32 caliber you would not want to be shot with.


----------



## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

"The shooters found the caliber too brutal to handle and it shot the guns apart".:vs_laugh: I do understand how the little chicks and flip boy snowflakes may have an issue with the 10mm. Those little wrists and powder puff hands couldn't take the "punishment".:vs_laugh: Once again we have to accommodate the poor worthless millennial's. Even invent a whole new caliber for the them.:vs_laugh:

The wife shoots a Glock 20 or 40 in 10mm and cares one in her car for a BO gun. Shoots it all the time with no complaints with my reloads. Full power Hornady 200 grain XTP's.


----------



## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

Gotta love Big Daddy Hoffman! "That's what I'm talkin about!"


----------



## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

Been shot with a 9. Carry a .45.


----------



## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

Camel923 said:


> The other part of this calculus is shot placement. A hit with a 22 is superior to a miss with a 45 colt. Having said that, it's hard to beat a 357 mag with the proper ammo if we are talking common calibers.


Agreed, I sometimes have young bucks and ladies shooting on my property. Couldn't help but notice the most (over 90%) shoot more accurately with the 22 and 380 pistol. Considering that in a time of stress most of us would shoot like a non-combat experienced person I suspect shooting a .380 or 9mm may result in more threat stopping hits than with a 357 mag.

just my 2 cents.


----------



## MikeTango (Apr 13, 2018)

Excellent video, Slip! Thanks for posting...


----------



## WhatTheHeck (Aug 1, 2018)

There are a lot of handguns and different calibers I would like to own.

But when I first got into shooting, for me, it made the most sense to go with .45ACP. Easy to find, cheaper brass, dies etc. And I got a good deal on a .45ACP handgun. 

Been running that since.

Wish I could afford some of those other calibers in some of those other makes and models. Five hundred bales of first cut hay has to come first. Then the well needs fixing. AI for the one cow, be her first time breeding. One of the goats had to go and see the vet. Adds up quick.

So, I stay with what I have. I shoot it as well as I can. If I can hit what I am aiming at, at realistic ranges, at decent speed, then I am doing ok. I should be able to pick up most any other hand gun no matter what the caliber and hit what I am aiming at.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I've got an old Colt revolver chambered in 32-20.
> That is one 32 caliber you would not want to be shot with.


Good deal on that. Knew they made pistols in that caliber..just never seen one. Think .38 -40 and surely .45 bound to have been more prevalent. Having had the honor to shoot a .30-30 target pistol one time..bet the back splash on the .32-20 is pretty robustly similar as is the front splash. lol.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Jammer Six said:


> Been shot with a 9. Carry a .45.


Yikes. Bet that smarted. Glad it wasnt fatal. Praise the Lord!


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> Good deal on that. Knew they made pistols in that caliber..just never seen one. Think .38 -40 and surely .45 bound to have been more prevalent. Having had the honor to shoot a .30-30 target pistol one time..bet the back splash on the .32-20 is pretty robustly similar as is the front splash. lol.


It is a nickle plated Police Positive Special, 4" barrel, that was made in 1921. All original, even the grips. The bore is almost gone, most likely due to the black powder loads of that time, but I can put rounds into an 8" paper plate at 10 yards. I mainly use it as a farm carry - much better than a 22 magnum, and a 38 Special is often a little too much. It would put a serious hurt on anything up to human size, although my biggest concern is rabid foxes and rabid racoons.
I have several boxes of Remington 100 grain JSP's, and cowboy action shooting has ensured that this fine cartridge lives on, with several manufacturers cataloging 100 grain lead flat points. Out of a 4" barrel it cooks along about 900 FPS, out of a rifle a lot more.

The 32-20 became popular as a farmer's pest and varmint caliber in the Winchester Model 1892 rifle. It was also used on deer, but it's actually a little light for that.
As pistol/rifle combinations firing the same cartridge were popular with cowboys, ranchers and other frontiersmen, Colt produced handguns in that caliber.
In fact, the caliber marking on top of the barrel is 32 WCF, for Winchester Central Fire.

Hey, I'm old school. I mean OLD school, as in Guns of the Old West. 
Plastic pistols and tactical rifles are perfectly fine, but they are not for me. Give me a Winchester 1873 in 44-40 and a Colt Single Action in the same caliber over an AR15 and a Glock any day.

(And don't even get me started on the greatest bolt action rifles of all times, the Mausers)


----------



## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

I don't know a thing about Mausers. I had never even heard of them until I joined gun forums.

Now all I know about them is that the people who shoot them are stomp-down fanatics about them.

What's so great about them?


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Jammer Six said:


> I don't know a thing about Mausers. I had never even heard of them until I joined gun forums.
> 
> Now all I know about them is that the people who shoot them are stomp-down fanatics about them.
> 
> What's so great about them?


 History, they have a lot of it. They were copied a lot and were the basses for a lot of other rifles. They were made popular at a time when German made meant something. There is always a certain amount of hype attached to any great firearm. The loved 1903 Springfield was derived from the M1893 Mauser. Lot of history attached to that.


----------



## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

Interesting. 
I've always been of the mind set that a shootout is going to typically start at close range, point blank to 30', and is going to be a scary and frantic scenario. No ones really going to be taking aim, it's generally going to be draw, point and shoot. Getting hit is going to be getting hit, people aren't thinking about what they got hit with, 45, 357, 38, 9mm 380, just that they've been hit, it hurts like hell and they are bleeding.
I have ready plenty of stories of people getting hit with plinker rounds, 22, 25, 32 and barely slowing down or just getting more pissed off, not so much once you get up to 380 and above.
I've seen countless arguments and participated in many about CCW caliber. Not everyone can manage a large caliber for various reasons, say ones type of employment, a small caliber is easier to conceal, you can carry more rounds, and not everyone lives in Texas :tango_face_wink: 

All that aside, having a pistol on you is better then not.


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Jammer Six said:


> I don't know a thing about Mausers. I had never even heard of them until I joined gun forums.
> 
> Now all I know about them is that the people who shoot them are stomp-down fanatics about them.
> 
> What's so great about them?


Many modern bolt action rifles are still built on the mauser action.


----------



## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

Jammer Six said:


> I don't know a thing about Mausers. I had never even heard of them until I joined gun forums.
> 
> Now all I know about them is that the people who shoot them are stomp-down fanatics about them.
> 
> What's so great about them?


From what I know about them they were so cutting edge at the time that it's what drove what we use today.

I've shot a few WWI and pre WWI era Mausers against modern rifles and they had no trouble matching shot for shot, even matched shots with a 100 yo Mauser with iron speed sights against a scoped 22.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> History, they have a lot of it. They were copied a lot and were the basses for a lot of other rifles. They were made popular at a time when German made meant something. There is always a certain amount of hype attached to any great firearm. The loved 1903 Springfield was derived from the M1893 Mauser. Lot of history attached to that.


Paul Mauser sued the US Government for copyright infringement when we built the Springfield Model 1903, and won.
World War One ended that, though.

The Mauser action was very advanced for its day with many innovative features. Cock on opening instead of closing made for smoother operation. Three locking lugs for exceptional strength. A bolt that would divert the gasses from a burst cartridge away from the shooters face instead of directly into it. And one feature that is still copied today on dangerous game rifles (and other serious hunting rifles) - controlled round feed. As the bolt moves forward into battery, the rim of the cartridge coming out of the magazine is captured by the very stout extractor to eliminate a jam situation under operator stress. This may not be necessary for hunting antelope or white tails, but for a charging lion or combat situation it could mean life or death.

So many Mauser variants were made by so many countries, that a serious collector has to impose some limitations, or have a ship load of money.
I have three: A Model K98k captured by the Yugoslavs during WWII; a 1917 GEW98 that was rebuilt to K98k specs by the Nazi's during the 1930's; and a Model 1938 Turkish made in 1944.
I would bet my life on any one of them.


----------



## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

Huh.

The Ruger Hawkeye (also known, I believe, as the M-77) in .223 is the only bolt action I own.

https://www.ruger.com/products/HawkeyeStandard/models.html

Looking at the ad, it advertises "...Mauser-type round feed extractor...".

When I bought it, I had no idea what that means, and I ignored it. (I still don't, but now it sounds important.)


----------



## Ragnarök (Aug 4, 2014)

I like .357 and 9mm best for handguns as personal defense.


----------



## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

There is a tool for every job. I wouldn't want to use a 30.06 to hunt squirrels. I wouldn't want to use a .22 to hunt javelinas down here.
The same goes for self defense at close range. I'm not too thrilled with some calibers do to over penetration, but yet you need some that will
stop the threat. Range means a lot.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Hand held cannons . I have a Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt, it is pre 2005 so you can hand load this thing to number no others can take. It darn sure packs a punch even with off the shelf ammo. It would not make a very good Carry personal defense weapon. But if you were forced to shot someone with it, there would be damage.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Hand held cannons . I have a Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt, it is pre 2005 so you can hand load this thing to number no others can take. It darn sure packs a punch even with off the shelf ammo. It would not make a very good Carry personal defense weapon. But if you were forced to shot someone with it, there would be damage.


The 45 Colt has been killin men since 1873. It will still do the job.
I have two Colt SAA clones, and one Ruger Blackhawk in this caliber. The Colt clones can only handle standard pressure ammo, but that Blackhawk can be hot loaded to higher than 44 magnum levels, just like your Vaquero.
Although, that isn't really needed - standard 45 Colt is pretty damn powerful.

45 Colt factoid - this was the most powerful handgun cartridge from its beginning in 1873 until the introduction of the 357 magnum in 1935. Which, in turn, was the most powerful until the 44 magnum in 1956.


----------



## modfan (Feb 18, 2016)

I've loaded my Blackhawk .44 with 300 grain hollow points. I don't care what kind of body armor it will leave a mark. When I used to shoot all the time. I could hit pie plates at 100yrds with decent velocity left. This was with 180gr hand loads and a 6.5" barrel. 5" of drop and 1100fps. 

I usually carry it in a cross draw, with a winter coat you never know I have it. Like I always say, I like throwing big chunks of lead down range.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Heard smart folks say more than once that even if a ballistic vest can stop a typical pistol round..if a person wearing one got chest shot with a .44 Mag the shock to the heart would prob kill them. Anybody know for sure? Assuming it be range dependent. Might not kill a person five hundred yards off etc.


----------



## Jammer Six (Jun 2, 2017)

bigwheel said:


> Heard smart folks say more than once that even if a ballistic vest can stop a typical pistol round..if a person wearing one got chest shot with a .44 Mag the shock to the heart would prob kill them. Anybody know for sure? Assuming it be range dependent. Might not kill a person five hundred yards off etc.


Fire your smart people. They're not very smart.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

They weren't employees so firing them was above my pay grade. So guess getting shot point blank with a .44 Mag wouldnt hurt a person too bad as long as they were wearing a vest. I will try to remember...thanks.


----------



## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Wearing a vest and getting shot dead.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...roof-vest-suspect-jason-griffin-a8240551.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ng-around-with-bulletproof-vest-gun/27896351/

https://www.wfla.com/news/hillsboro...t-proof-vest-leaves-tampa-man-dead/1052056792


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> The 45 Colt has been killin men since 1873. It will still do the job.
> I have two Colt SAA clones, and one Ruger Blackhawk in this caliber. The Colt clones can only handle standard pressure ammo, but that Blackhawk can be hot loaded to higher than 44 magnum levels, just like your Vaquero.
> Although, that isn't really needed - standard 45 Colt is pretty damn powerful.
> 
> 45 Colt factoid - this was the most powerful handgun cartridge from its beginning in 1873 until the introduction of the 357 magnum in 1935. Which, in turn, was the most powerful until the 44 magnum in 1956.


 The Vaquero made 2005 and earlier was is a different firearm than those made after. If you look in the reload books you will see Ruger only loads for them. They gave a new definition to over built. I do not fire it a lot but when I do factory loads 230 gr. lead. It will leave a mark .


----------



## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I think the best way to solve this debate is to look at hospital statistics. Most people who are shot with a handgun survive, In fact, one hospital took an x-ray of a guy with a gunshot wound and initially could not discern the new bullet from all of the old bullets in his body.

Most of the members here probably have nice guns because it's important component of a prepper's survival. Most of the street thugs carry junk. Ever see a TV story of the guns police have confiscated? I wouldn't want any of them.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> The Vaquero made 2005 and earlier was is a different firearm than those made after. If you look in the reload books you will see Ruger only loads for them. They gave a new definition to over built. I do not fire it a lot but when I do factory loads 230 gr. lead. It will leave a mark .


The old Vaquero was made on a standard Blackhawk/Super Blackhawk frame, even though it was styled after an original Colt, which was smaller.
The Cowboy Action shooters wanted a Ruger for exceptional dependability, but wanted it to be Colt size - and since those shooters represent a sizable market, Ruger made the new Vaquero.
It actually is back to the size of the original 357 & 44 magnum Blackhawks, which Ruger enthusiasts call the Flat Top. These were made from 1956 to 1961. In 1962 Blackhawks were made larger, to the present day size and are known as the Old Model. In 1973, Ruger introduced the New Model Blackhawk with the transfer bar allowing 6 rounds to be safely carried. Flat Tops and Old Models are limited to carrying only 5 rounds, like a real Colt SAA.

Years ago, I lucked out and found a beautiful condition Flat Top 357 magnum made in 1959. That will be one of the last guns I ever part with.


----------

