# Former Felon With Restored Gun Rights Saved Trooper In Arizona Ambush



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

I think that this case deserved its own thread, not only for the citizens actions in saving the trooper, but evidence that restoration of rights should occur.



> He identified himself as Thomas Yoxall, 43, a maintenance supervisor with a passion for photography and reading.
> 
> And he mentioned that he has a "past."
> 
> ...


https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/01/25/hero-saved-arizona-trooper-felon-restored-gun-rights/


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Regardless I am still against restoring gun and voting rights to Felon's. In most cases they will not change their ways. They may avoid arrest . But they are still what they are . No one forced them to commit the crimes. Make no mistake about it very few if any ever get convicted of a Felon for their first crime. Most of the time you have to work at. Here 14 Felonies will easily get pleaded down to almost nothing. They old story about Jamie getting caught with 1 joint and having a Felon is BS.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

There comes a point where if you paid your debt to society, kept your nose clean and are a productive member of society you deserve to have all of your rights. Especially nonviolent offenders. Smitty901 has reasonable concerns and some felons will justify that position. Here is an example of someone who turned it around.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Not restoring voting rights and gun rights to people that have done their time is continuing their penalty forever......... and ever

if they are let out and have completed probation.. it should be automatic. they are represented by politicians so should have a vote and they have as much right as anybody to protect themselves


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Case by case basis. maybe Non violent offenders who have been clean for a LONG period of time.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Drug dealing is not a non violent crime. Their victims fill the cemeteries and hospitals . Robbery is not a non violent crime.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Most felons are not violent offenders. I know many felon veterans with most of them having one felon conviction in their past. Quite a few that have been law abiding for many years. I agree that once you have completed your punishment, then you should have all rights restored. I do not remember anything in the Constitution saying anything about losing rights permanently. If a person is too dangerous to be trusted with full rights, then they are too dangerous to be in society.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> Regardless I am still against restoring gun and voting rights to Felon's. In most cases they will not change their ways. They may avoid arrest . But they are still what they are . No one forced them to commit the crimes. Make no mistake about it very few if any ever get convicted of a Felon for their first crime. Most of the time you have to work at. Here 14 Felonies will easily get pleaded down to almost nothing. They old story about Jamie getting caught with 1 joint and having a Felon is BS.


This maybe your opinion but you are wrong. Sure people make mistake and some are just plain evil but like Maine Marine said you cant punish some one forever. Gun rights being stopped is understandable but voting rights? If someone is no longer incarcerated why should they not be able to vote? There is no reason. Stopping voting rights while incarcerated was because of shady people running for election and trying to recruit the prisoners vote.

There are a lot of felons because of prosecutors. I hate prosecutors with a passion. They lie, in many cases they don't care about the truth. They only care about their statistics so that they look good to the voters. That is one of the reasons why they will stack charges on someone. It forces them to take the plea bargain. A lot of felons change their ways once released and it sucks because they have to overcome a lot of hurdles. Society is so stinking prejudice towards someone that has a criminal history. A lot of felons do resort going back to criminal activities, you have to have money to survive. Welfare only goes so far. No its not right but its the truth. That is a big reason we have a high recidivism rate.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

MaterielGeneral said:


> This maybe your opinion but you are wrong. Sure people make mistake and some are just plain evil but like Maine Marine said you cant punish some one forever. Gun rights being stopped is understandable but voting rights? If someone is no longer incarcerated why should they not be able to vote? There is no reason. Stopping voting rights while incarcerated was because of shady people running for election and trying to recruit the prisoners vote.
> 
> There are a lot of felons because of prosecutors. I hate prosecutors with a passion. They lie, in many cases they don't care about the truth. They only care about their statistics so that they look good to the voters. That is one of the reasons why they will stack charges on someone. It forces them to take the plea bargain. A lot of felons change their ways once released and it sucks because they have to overcome a lot of hurdles. Society is so stinking prejudice towards someone that has a criminal history. A lot of felons do resort going back to criminal activities, you have to have money to survive. Welfare only goes so far. No its not right but its the truth. That is a big reason we have a high recidivism rate.


Well put and I agree.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

MaterielGeneral said:


> This maybe your opinion but you are wrong. Sure people make mistake and some are just plain evil but like Maine Marine said you cant punish some one forever. Gun rights being stopped is understandable but voting rights? If someone is no longer incarcerated why should they not be able to vote? There is no reason. Stopping voting rights while incarcerated was because of shady people running for election and trying to recruit the prisoners vote.
> 
> There are a lot of felons because of prosecutors. I hate prosecutors with a passion. They lie, in many cases they don't care about the truth. They only care about their statistics so that they look good to the voters. That is one of the reasons why they will stack charges on someone. It forces them to take the plea bargain. A lot of felons change their ways once released and it sucks because they have to overcome a lot of hurdles. Society is so stinking prejudice towards someone that has a criminal history. A lot of felons do resort going back to criminal activities, you have to have money to survive. Welfare only goes so far. No its not right but its the truth. That is a big reason we have a high recidivism rate.


 Strongly disagree losing those right was part of the punishment for the crime. They are for the most part people that will not follow the rules. There maybe a few exceptions but very few.


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## Oddcaliber (Feb 17, 2014)

This is one of those times when the liberals don't want to know the truth and try to keep it out of the news.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Yep we need to restore them rights.

"In exchange for his plea, the prosecution and defense agreed to recommend that Stewart, of the Far South Side, serve six months of community control when he is sentenced on Jan. 6, Assistant County Prosecutor John Gripshover said."

Man pleads to stealing guns from unmarked police car - News - The Columbus Dispatch - Columbus, OH


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

There are provisions in the laws in many states that can restore rights.

In some, a felony record can be expunged by the court by petition.

Generally these cases are reviewed after a certain amount of years have passed with no other occurrences.

Basically these actions are used for one time offenders and for specific classes of felony, I don't think murder one would fly.

Without the expungement, they will still be a felon under federal code, even with a state pardon.

They will not pass a NICS check, and could be charged federally for attempting a purchase.

A court reversal to not guilty and expungement only will remove the record on state and federal data bases. 

It will be as if it never existed, only reference remaining will be in the archived court records with the appropriate annotation.

Legally, the remaining entries cannot be referred to in any other future case if any.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> Strongly disagree losing those right was part of the punishment for the crime. They are for the most part people that will not follow the rules. There maybe a few exceptions but very few.


Losing the right permanently because of punishment huh?

What Rights Do Convicted Felons Lose?

"Public social benefits
In addition to not being allowed to serve on a jury in most states, convicted felons are not allowed to apply for federal or state grants, live in public housing, or receive federal cash assistance, SSI or food stamps, among other benefits. Convicted felons also see their parental rights diminish, especially in the case of custody battles or divorces. A felony conviction is almost always a red flag for any judge to award custody to the other parent.
In addition to all of these lost rights, a felony conviction is a permanent stain on a person's record. Even if these are not necessary lost rights, he or she may find difficulty getting a lease, applying for a loan or filing official paperwork in any capacity."

Are you one of the people that complain about why there is so much crime and why there is such a high recidivism rate? Hell if I was going to be continually be punished I just might start up a pot farm or some other entrepreneurship, how else are you going to live when you are continually discriminated against and never forgiven.

You said: "They are for the most part people that will not follow the rules. There maybe a few exceptions but very few. " How do you know this, the news? There is a saying in corrections: Smart people do stupid things. Everyone has done something stupid every now and then, just some people royally F up. You cannot label all felons as continually breaking rules. A lot, and I mean a lot of people in prison mind their own business and do there time. They screwed up and just want to do their time and go home.

When the US finally wants to do something about our crime rate and prison population they will fix the school system in general, in a correctional environment continue offering education and most do with the GED program, but offer higher education at the prisoners expense. The real education would be trade skills. While they kind a do it with prison jobs, there is not any education in it. I'm talking about for example an electrician. Give them training and a legal certification so when they get out they can find real work. And to offer a way that the prisoner does not have to go back to the same neighborhood when released. Some type of relocation program.

If we do not reform our criminal justice system nothing is going to change, especially with people that have the same opinion as you do.

Something that also needs reform on is laws that will disbar a prosecutor and makes it a crime with incarceration if he suppresses evidence, lies or knowingly goes along with a lie, like from a cop. We need the same laws for police that hide, suppress evidence or if they lie about the truth and/or false allegations or if a police officer knows another police officer is doing so and does not report it. Not trying to hammer on cops but they as a nation are not doing so well policing themselves. Same goes for correction officers if they lie on misconduct write ups or get physical with a prisoner when it is not warranted.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> Strongly disagree losing those right was part of the punishment for the crime. They are for the most part people that will not follow the rules. There maybe a few exceptions but very few.


Quite right. Losing one's civil rights is certainly part of the punishment for committing a crime. That's why we send them to jail, or place them under house arrest, or put them on probation. They are a criminal, and have restricted rights.

But...

Once they have served their allotted time for punishment, and return to a free society with no further association with the criminal justice system(CJS), they are citizens again.
ALL rights should be immediately restored.
If you can make a factual argument for why ANY right should not be restored, then your argument should be sufficient to keep them under the thumb of the CJS, and keep them from being reinstated as a free citizen in society.
If you can't make a factual argument, then you are basing your reasoning on personal opinion, and that is insufficient to restrict the rights of another.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

In order to be convicted of a felony in most case you have to commit a long string of them. Even then likely to be reduced. Then unlikely to do much if any time. After all that if you manage to go down on one it won't be much. Even convicted Felons that are caught again really are charged with another felony. It get reduced. They are also seldom revoke off probation.
It will take a lot more to change my mind, I see it all the time.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

I worked with a Viet Nam Vet that got charged and convicted of a felony for having a dime bag of pot in 70's when the govt cracked down on weed. The man had no other convictions of any sort during his 68 years of life, but by law, his can not exercise his right to own and bear a firearm. There are many, many convicted felons that should have their full rights restored.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

RedLion said:


> I worked with a Viet Nam Vet that got charged and convicted of a felony for having a dime bag of pot in 70's when the govt cracked down on weed. The man had no other convictions of any sort during his 68 years of life, but by law, his can not exercise his right to own and bear a firearm. There are many, many convicted felons that should have their full rights restored.


 I hear you and respect what you say. I just don't buy it. Many convictions may appear like that but truth is the dime bag was likely a plea. 90% of drunk drivers only had two beers. Get busted for 5-6 Felony's by the time you finish it is 1 misdemeanor. We here all the time about the guy in prison for 6 years bust with one joint. Plays well , but is not true. Heck average for murder is only about 8 years served.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> I hear you and respect what you say. I just don't buy it. Many convictions may appear like that but truth is the dime bag was likely a plea. 90% of drunk drivers only had two beers. Get busted for 5-6 Felony's by the time you finish it is 1 misdemeanor. We here all the time about the guy in prison for 6 years bust with one joint. Plays well , but is not true. Heck average for murder is only about 8 years served.


A felony conviction for a dime bag a plea? No. One thing that my position allows for when it comes to assisting veterans in getting permanent housing, is getting knowledge of veterans legal background going back decades.
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. IMO, if a person's actions justify a lifetime punishment, then that person should either be incarcerated for life or be sentenced to death.
I do agree wholeheartedly that since Obama became POTUS, federal prosecution of crimes went way down and actual punishments commonly went significant time in prison to probation.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> In order to be convicted of a felony in most case you have to commit a long string of them. Even then likely to be reduced. Then unlikely to do much if any time. After all that if you manage to go down on one it won't be much. Even convicted Felons that are caught again really are charged with another felony. It get reduced. They are also seldom revoke off probation.
> It will take a lot more to change my mind, I see it all the time.


Smitty901 what do you do for a living? I am just trying to get a sense of how you are formulating these opinions.

You defiantly do not need to perform a full string of felonies to get convicted or even tried for a crime.

Long story short, during the time period that I was a correction officer my ex girlfriend was playing her boyfriend and me at the same time. We got into a fight, he broke a beer bottle over my head and started to hit me. I then proceeded to beat the snot out of him with an Asp until he finally ran away and I then left. I then got arrested later in the day at my house at gun point.

Because of the way I was arrested I knew that I was guilty in everyone's eyes. They took me to the local jail and refused to tell me what I was being arrested for. I had to wait for the cops from the other city to come pick me up. After they arrived they refused to tell me what I was being arrested for. When I finally got to the other jail they then tried to question me. I told them that the way I was treated and getting arrested at gun point I was already guilty in their eyes so I did not have anything to say unless an attorney was present. You could see the look in their eyes they instantly got pissed. They tried to question me again and I then told them to F off, get me an attorney or I dont have anything to say. They left the room and then some (about 6) correction officers came in a few minutes later and took me to the back to a cell. Once at the cell they told me to strip. I asked why, they said your being placed on suicide watch. I said I'm not suicidal and I aint stripping.

They then proceeded to beat the snot out of me. After being hit, punched a few times I started to fight back. I did not use a closed fist just the usual law enforcement fighting techniques. I was doing fairly well throwing them around and tripping them for a few minutes until one of the bastards got behind me and punched me where the skull and spine meet. That put me down and they ripped my clothes off.

A couple days later I bonded out. I had a cut from ear to ear from where they ripped my shirt off of me. I had two black eyes, cut lip, bruises all over my body. I had a bruise in the shape of a boot on my back. Upon my release I found out I was being charged with a felony.

When I got back home I went to the local emergency room and asked for a physical exam and the state police. State police took a statement and pictures. They said give it a few weeks and then do a freedom of information request and gave me the contact info so I could get copies of the pictures. I also filed a complaint with internal affairs.

$10,000.00 later in attorney fees I had an attorney. Thru out the process the prosecuting attorney refused to plea it down to anything tolerable like simple assault. I would have taken a misdemeanor, something that would have allowed me to keep my job and I'm glad that I didn't.

The questioning began. Started with the other guy on the stand. He was pitiful, talking in slang, dressed like a bum. Prosecutor did her thing asking questions. Then my attorney cross examined him. She tor him up. Got him changing his story on the stand (the way events happened). Caught him lying under oath. When she got done the judge ordered the attorneys to the bench. He told the prosecutor she was stupid. She is going to loose and should have plead this out to nothing.

It was my turn on the stand. My attorney did her questioning and everything went well. Just an FYI, when you are answering questions look at the jury and talk directly to them. You are trying to convince the jury no one else in the courtroom matters. The prosecutor started to ask her questions. I cant remember the details anymore but she tried to trip me up several times and I ended up embarassing her with my responses. You could see on her face she was livid.

We then broke for lunch while the jury deliberated. My attorney came back to me while on break and told me the prosecutor offered a plea bargain. I cant remember what it was anymore but it was a high misdemeanor, with that kind of charge I wouldn't have been able to work as a correction officer any more. I told her to tell the prosecutor to kiss my A**, I'll take my chances with the jury.

They finally said the jury was ready so we all went back to the court room. Four bailiffs came out and stood behind me. I looked at my attorney and said is this normal. She said no, I've never seen this before. I thought I'm screwed (one final intimidation tactic?). The jury pronounced a not guilty verdict. I looked at the prosecutor and she looked like she was going to start crying. I just shook my head.

When it came time for the pictures of my injuries, I made the FOIA request and got a letter back stating that the negatives and photos were lost. I then talked to the internal affairs guy and he said his officers did no wrong and case closed. So much for having a million dollar lawsuit.

Lesson learned, he who calls the cops first wins (at least temporarily). Never ever talk to a cop without an attorney present. It will piss them off but they are trained to play you, twist your words so you tell on yourself. Always take your own photos or videos to go along with law enforcement.

I still think you are very wrong on much of what you have to say but I guess like RedLion said we will have to agree to disagree.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

I forgot to add one last thing, attorneys or I should say good attorneys are not cheap. If you do not have money in the bank or relatives that have money in the bank your screwed because court appointed attorneys suck. Luckily I had relatives that could loan me money for my attorney.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

MaterielGeneral said:


> Smitty901 what do you do for a living? I am just trying to get a sense of how you are formulating these opinions.
> 
> You defiantly do not need to perform a full string of felonies to get convicted or even tried for a crime.
> 
> ...


 I am retired now. Most felonies are plead down before they ever see court. I know how to deal with LE. If you can't pay the price don't do the crime.
Convicted Felons seldom do their time, they are almost never revoked for violation of parole simple facts. 
That's the problem we have crime is no big deal no price to pay. Give the guns rights back to the gangbangers make it easy for them to do it all over again.
Drug dealing is not a violent crime let them all go. Again check the morgue it is violent crime.
You do not go to jail in most cases or you first charged felony, like not to do more than 12 hours in jail.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

If felons seldom do the time then why are our warehousing system called prisons and jails over filled with prisoners sleeping on the floor with the ants? In my self defense situation the felony charge was certainly NOT plead down before court. Everything I have said in this thread has came from my experience as a correction officer/ERT Member and my experience on the receiving end of the criminal justice system. So in my opinion I may not be subject matter expert but I am damn close to it.

Well Smitty901, I don't really know what to say, you are tunnel visioned and got your mind set straight that it aint going to change. I'm not going to try to change your mind and this topic is frankly starting to annoy the crap out of me. So I bid you good luck and a good night, I am now going to go play in my prepper room in the basement and get drunk.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

RedLion said:


> IMO, if a person's actions justify a lifetime punishment, then that person should either be incarcerated for life or be sentenced to death.


^^^
This.
Nuff said.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

I recently read an article about the new face of American unemployment. Even at so-called full employment, some 20 million Americans are left behind and the article covers the different faces like drug addicts and people with a criminal history. I thought the quoted statement below was very powerful.

The New Face of American Unemployment

"We're getting food stamps and cash assistance. We don't like being on it. But the society that looks down on those receiving assistance is the same society that won't hire me, and the same society that judges criminals when they reoffend."

This statement was made by a Marine combat veteran who after leaving service developed a drug problem and then a felony record to feed the drug problem.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

The only loop hole in how I feel about resorting rights is a case by case. A full review of the real crime and all that got buried along with the plea deal. Then if Jonnie got busted with 1 joint did 10 years we will look at it.
I understand your passion and your point of view, I just mostly disagree based on what I have seen and experienced. I have stood for many hours in a court rooms with enlisted service members that screwed up. A few that had done nothing.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> The only loop hole in how I feel about resorting rights is a case by case. A full review of the real crime and all that got buried along with the plea deal. Then if Jonnie got busted with 1 joint did 10 years we will look at it.
> I understand your passion and your point of view, I just mostly disagree based on what I have seen and experienced. I have stood for many hours in a court rooms with enlisted service members that screwed up. A few that had done nothing.


Some of the stuff you have posted over these last couple of threads I do agree with you about certain things and from my experiences and observations both inside and outside of the prison system and the courtroom I disagree with you. I think you paint a lot of felons with a broad paint brush. Essentially you are stereotyping those with a criminal record. You cannot punish someone forever if they do not deserve it.

When starting a review yes look at what the actual crime or incident was but you have to take into consideration the circumstances the person may state what was going on, what really happened. Once arrested prosecutors will put the maximum amount of charges on you to scare you into taking a plea bargain or that if you do go to trial there will still be enough charges that they hope will stick so that you still get incarcerated. In my experiences I have not seen a serious crime plea bargained to a nothing/misdemeanor charge. You even stated "A few that had done nothing." What happened to those soldiers? Did the prosecutor continue to push charges on those soldiers?

For the review, for example after a certain amount of time after the felon has been released from their sentence, then the felon can be reviewed. For example for several different things I have heard 7 years and no problems. I think one of the criteria is that the felon cannot be a repeated offender, meaning if the felon has been arrested/convicted a couple of times, did their sentence(s) with little problems and then reformed then OK. If the felon is a repeat offender X10 with write ups while incarcerated a mile long and continues to get into trouble then that would be a big fat NO GO.

A big part of my passion is how one sided the criminal justice system is. And after the person has put the CJ system behind them and is trying to live their life respectfully society continues to treat the offender one sided. That is why I thought that Marines statement was so powerful. Society looks down on the person because they are not working but society wont hire the person even if they are more than qualified because they have a record and then because the person reoffended they judge them worse.

I am really surprised that there is not more suicides after release of incarceration than what their is. Can you imagine what it is like to be shunned by society but still have society all around you? "People who have been in prison run a higher risk of committing suicide; 18 times that of the general population."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141028145548.htm

Like I said in the previous post our criminal justice system needs to be reformed, our society needs to be reeducated. Instead of bitching about the intolerance against gays or muslims maybe give a little bit of a crap about the bastard children of society.

It will be a little touchy and will need the bugs worked out but I think that part of the process of a felon working on getting his rights back that most business's should not be able to ask if you have a previous criminal record. Keep in mind if you are in the category of being a repeat offender this would not apply to you. For certain crimes like child molesting you would be forever banned from working or volunteering with children. Maybe if a person has been arrested for shoplifting several times leading up to a felony and has been diagnosed with Kleptomania but you have been clean after so many years then if you try to get a job in retail your disclosure protection would not apply.

Were playing with a lot of what if's and no reform will probably never happen. Humans are stupid animals. With Americas prisoner warehousing system being the largest in the world its gotten to be about big government getting bigger. Write more laws, Hire more police and supply the best equipment to arrest more people, the more people to incarcerate, the more correctional staff to hire, more prisons to build and equip, the more taxes to raise to pay for it all. The government is creating job security and society plays right into it.


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