# Constitutional Rights. Agreeable or not?



## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Not to hijack the thread about giving convicted felons back their guns after they are released I have a simple question. 

Can a person give up their constitutional rights by choice? Precedent is they can because that is how parole works right now. It is a contract, an agreement, and you get out of prison but are subject to unreasonable search and seizure rules, lack privacy rights, and the 2nd amendment right. If there anything in the constitution that says one can't agree to give up his or her rights?


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

stowlin said:


> Not to hijack the thread about giving convicted felons back their guns after they are released I have a simple question.
> 
> Can a person give up their constitutional rights by choice? Precedent is they can because that is how parole works right now. It is a contract, an agreement, and you get out of prison but are subject to unreasonable search and seizure rules, lack privacy rights, and the 2nd amendment right. If there anything in the constitution that says one can't agree to give up his or her rights?


of course you can give up your rights. There is nothing in the constitution that prevent you from willing surrendering them... People do it all the time


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Sure you can use a gun and rob someone or commit one of many violent crimes . Of course you will have to work at it do it over and over until you finally run into a DA on a slow day. But you can do it.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I may be corrected by the many members here who have served but voluntary military service involves sacrificing some of your freedom. Do what your told when you are told, No talking in ranks and so forth. Just an example off the top of my head. There is a difference between cohersion and voluntary.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

In the big picture I would say no because those are god given rights and only God can take them from you.

Buy in a more conventional way I agree your rights can be "given up" for, as you said, a condition of parole. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Joining the military does ot mean that you lose the rights... You still have freedom of speech... 
you have freedom of speech in a movie theater or Court room... like the military you will get in trouble if you use it at the wrong time


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

I am free to walk into a police station and confess to a crime.
I am free to not own or use firearms.
I am free to refuse to seek redress from my government.
I am free to sit at home on Sunday morning and not go to church.
I am free to not print a newspaper or produce a TV news show.
I am free no not go to a rally.
I am free to allow a LEO into my home and search for contraband.
If on trial, I am free to defend myself without benefit of counsel.
If on trial, I am free to request continuances and delays.
If on trial, I am free to waive a trial by jury.


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

Maine-Marine said:


> Joining the military does ot mean that you lose the rights... You still have freedom of speech...
> you have freedom of speech in a movie theater or Court room... like the military you will get in trouble if you use it at the wrong time


If you enlist in the armed services you have jack squat for rights for the duration of that contract. If you are lucky you end up at a command that at least thinks of you as a human. Not everybody is that lucky.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

White Shadow said:


> If you enlist in the armed services you have jack squat for rights for the duration of that contract. If you are lucky you end up at a command that at least thinks of you as a human. Not everybody is that lucky.


Sorry to disagree..but you are wrong.... You still have all the rights you had before. But you may choose to not use them due to either the greater good or you are scared.

but I could be wrong - Please explain what Rights you think you "LOSE" when you join the military


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

Maine-Marine said:


> Sorry to disagree..but you are wrong.... You still have all the rights you had before. But you may choose to not use them due to either the greater good or you are scared.
> 
> but I could be wrong - Please explain what Rights you think you "LOSE" when you join the military


All of them.

You still have the capability to go where you want to, do what you want to, and say what you want to, but you do not have the legal right to for the duration of that contract. You are simply a resource with only the rights they feel like giving you under the UCMJ that particular day.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

All is not forgiven when a convicted felon is finished with his debt to society. He has parole and a roadway designed to enable him the opportunity to renter society and prove he can co-exist law abiding citizens and structure. 

His rights should be progressive as well. However, some felony offenses should carry a lifetime ban on firearm possession.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

A Watchman said:


> All is not forgiven when a convicted felon is finished with his debt to society. He has parole and a roadway designed to enable him the opportunity to renter society and prove he can co-exist law abiding citizens and structure.
> 
> His rights should be progressive as well. However, some felony offenses should carry a lifetime ban on firearm possession.


Actually, parole is when the inmate is released before the completion of the sentence. He is to contact his parole agent so the overworked agent can try and determine if the parolee is living up to the terms of parole.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

White Shadow said:


> All of them.
> 
> You still have the capability to go where you want to, do what you want to, and say what you want to, but you do not have the legal right to for the duration of that contract. You are simply a resource with only the rights they feel like giving you under the UCMJ that particular day.


I think there is a little hint of bitterness in you young padawan... temporary agreeing to reduce or set aside your rights does not mean you lose them.

try telling a CEO he sucks.. you get fired, does not mean you lose freedom of speech
trying going and doing what you want to do at any job, McDonald's, cisco, or US Airways.. you will get fired.. same in the military, just firing involves some brig time

if you are not saying something because you are scared to get in trouble, that is fear. 
If you are not saying something due to a contract, that is honorable

the Military paid me for 21 years, as part of the pay I agreed to abide by their rules, same as my job now, same as when i worked for other companies....

SO In my opinion, you do not lose rights joining the miltary


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

Definitely some bitterness there. I spent my last 2 1/2 years at a command where the CO despised the very existence of the enlisted personnel and took it out on us every single day. That attitude was reflected in all officers at the command level. At the time I left NIS was on site investigating why the command had a sky high attempted suicide rate. Good times.

I think we are only disagreeing on terminology. I did not permanently lose any rights and I did not lose any capabilities at any time, but by following the terms of the contract I had lost use of all of my rights for the duration. I consider that having lost them for the term of my enlistment.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Eehhhhh...same can be said with certain jobs. I have to curtail the use of certain rights for my job as a consideration of other's rights to privacy.
My right to privacy is curtailed somewhat by my employer retained the right to monitor my social media.

I retain the right to tell them to go bugger a camel and leave.


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

A US citizen can renounce citizenship when ever they want. 

As to felons I think after you serve time and do your parole you should be returned all of your rights and responsibilities.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

RJAMES said:


> A US citizen can renounce citizenship when ever they want.
> 
> As to felons I think after you serve time and do your parole you should be returned all of your rights and responsibilities.


Or we could just increase the number of crimes for which there is a life sentence, only if you agree to certain terms we let you out early?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

The Constitution is written to limit the government's actions.
It doesn't affect the individual at all.
You enjoy rights because you are a free citizen. Not because the Constitution says you have them.
The Constitution doesn't grant them, and the Constitution only tells the government that they can't touch them without due process.

You can give up whatever you choose to give up.
What greater example of liberty could there be?


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## TJC44 (Mar 16, 2014)

The 2 best ways to give up your rights (WHY?????)
would be 1. As above, renounce your citizenship to the greatest & freeist nation on earth,
and 2. sign yourself into a mental institution.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

stowlin said:


> Not to hijack the thread about giving convicted felons back their guns after they are released I have a simple question.
> 
> Can a person give up their constitutional rights by choice? Precedent is they can because that is how parole works right now. It is a contract, an agreement, and you get out of prison but are subject to unreasonable search and seizure rules, lack privacy rights, and the 2nd amendment right. If there anything in the constitution that says one can't agree to give up his or her rights?


I do not see this as a voluntary suspension of rights. They first lost their rights by committing and being convicted of a crime. Some of their rights are restored with Parole, while others remain forfeited. Upon completing the full sentence other rights are returned. There is no voluntary choice in it other than to voluntary choose not to accept early parole for the sake of completing time in jail and being free without restrain afterwards.

The military does not forfeit its rights. We have all the same rights and restrictions others do. I can protest, I can practice religion, and I have a right to privacy if I live in my own home. If I live in Government issued barracks or on post housing, then I am at the mercy of the owner for inspections (USG). I cannot tell my boss off and not get in trouble any more than you guys could. I have to follow directions of my superiors, but I have a choice..do it or not and get punished...why because I signed a contract agreeing to do that. Same as any baseball player who signs a contract to perform in x, y, z manner. You can't just say I quit because I signed a multi year contract and They have an investment in the training I have received.


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

If you are enlisted (I have no idea what goes on in officer land) in the military you are the property of the US Gov with all of the constitutional rights that any other property like the furniture has. If you are enlisted in the military and have any rights at all, we obviously did not serve in the same military.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

If life in prison is not an unreasonable punishment, nor death, then why would deprevation of one's rights in exchange for partial freedom?



Old SF Guy said:


> I do not see this as a voluntary suspension of rights. They first lost their rights by committing and being convicted of a crime. Some of their rights are restored with Parole, while others remain forfeited. Upon completing the full sentence other rights are returned. There is no voluntary choice in it other than to voluntary choose not to accept early parole for the sake of completing time in jail and being free without restrain afterwards.
> 
> The military does not forfeit its rights. We have all the same rights and restrictions others do. I can protest, I can practice religion, and I have a right to privacy if I live in my own home. If I live in Government issued barracks or on post housing, then I am at the mercy of the owner for inspections (USG). I cannot tell my boss off and not get in trouble any more than you guys could. I have to follow directions of my superiors, but I have a choice..do it or not and get punished...why because I signed a contract agreeing to do that. Same as any baseball player who signs a contract to perform in x, y, z manner. You can't just say I quit because I signed a multi year contract and They have an investment in the training I have received.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

White Shadow said:


> If you are enlisted (I have no idea what goes on in officer land) in the military you are the property of the US Gov with all of the constitutional rights that any other property like the furniture has. If you are enlisted in the military and have any rights at all, we obviously did not serve in the same military.


Apparently. There's a difference between losing your rights, and your rights being restricted due to a job.
You've just got a bad taste in your mouth. Probably best for you and Uncle Sam you took your leave.


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

I don't think Uncle Sam gave a hoot one way or another about my staying in/getting out because I was a good little drone no matter how much suck there was, but I was pretty much done with him after four years. 

How people equate rights restrictions of a "job" to enlisted life is beyond me. In the experiences I have had they were worlds apart.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Well, that's what a couple,e people have said. Your experience was different than others. I'm betting there may be a difference in ages that should be taken into account.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Coastie dad said:


> Apparently. There's a difference between losing your rights, and your rights being restricted due to a job.
> You've just got a bad taste in your mouth. Probably best for you and Uncle Sam you took your leave.


I think there is a case of wordsmithing in need, here.

It isn't a matter of "losing" your rights, but not being able to exercise all of them. Even civilians who work on properly seated federal territories such as army installations find their rights are restricted. Try exercising your right to assemble and you'll find how MP's handle hippie protesters. Do NOT get caught carrying your favorite pistol with you when you come on post, or you might get caught in a vehicle search. Yes, a vehicle search.
What about free speech for soldiers? You can find yourself in hot water by criticizing your chain of command, be it a lieutenant or the commander in chief.

Keep in mind, a properly seated federal territory, whether it be an army installation or D.C., is dedicated to maintaining and protecting our rights and not necessarily exercising them. This is why they are jurisdictively apart from the states.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

naw man you got it all wrong white shadow dude - I served and well sure your considered government property on paper but no one told me I couldn't go down to the e-club and pound some brewskis or dance all silly on the floor- no one told me I couldn't goto to my apt after duty and sit in my underpants and play Nintendo games while drinking some scotch now did they! sure I had to work and follow orders on duty to get the job done but that is something you wouldn't understand ordering or being ordered to put yourself or someone else in harms way just so you can sit in your skirt behind your keyboard and talk trash- no dude, we had freedom more than you will or can understand.


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

It wasn't just on paper where I was. The command took a guy that I worked with to a court martial (not NJP) for destruction of government property when he broke his arm in a car crash. Morale was so awesome that with a command size of less than 500 we were up to an average of two serious suicide attempts a month and we didn't have anyone who would have seen a battlefield or would have been suffering from PTSD.

I served four years. I have an honorable discharge. I earned the right to call it the way I see it. You can jam your personal insults up your own skirt.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

What personal insults? @Denton said there is a wordsmithing issue here. Just because your rights are restricted in how or when you use them due to a job requirement, does not mean you have lost those rights.
It sounds like you had a real horse's ass for a CO, (I've had one) but if all that you said went on actually did, then your XO, 1SGT, and PSGTs must have all been complicit as well.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Coastie dad said:


> What personal insults? @Denton said there is a wordsmithing issue here. Just because your rights are restricted in how or when you use them due to a job requirement, does not mean you have lost those rights.
> It sounds like you had a real horse's ass for a CO, (I've had one) but if all that you said went on actually did, then your XO, 1SGT, and PSGTs must have all been complicit as well.


 @Medic33 jumped in and made less than objective comments. He thinks drinking scotch in his underwear while in his apartment means rights of a serviceman or a civilian on a federal installation are not restricted, and then called W.S. a skirt. :vs_laugh:


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Ooohhhhh....I missed that....:vs_whistle:


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

actually I typed shirt and had and auto correct malfunction to skirt--so sorry:tango_face_smile:
sounds like exactly what denton said bad chain of command there is a lot of REMF'ERs in the system that just don't give a crap-also by the UCMJ if you break your arm in a civilian car wreck and you found at fault then yep destruction of government property can be cited 
IF it was so bad then WHY didn't someone or you anonymously contact the IG and JAG in DC- they have special investigators (CID) that slip in as a PFC and scope things out while taking notes and names and usually is discrepancy's and issues are found someone looses rank ,a command, and could face serious UCMJ charges.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Medic33 said:


> actually I typed shirt and had and auto correct malfunction to skirt--so sorry:tango_face_smile:
> sounds like exactly what denton said bad chain of command there is a lot of REMF'ERs in the system that just don't give a crap-also by the UCMJ if you break your arm in a civilian car wreck and you found at fault then yep destruction of government property can be cited
> IF it was so bad then WHY didn't someone or you anonymously contact the IG and JAG in DC- they have special investigators (CID) that slip in as a PFC and scope things out while taking notes and names and usually is discrepancy's and issues are found someone looses rank ,a command, and could face serious UCMJ charges.


At my first duty station, a fellow was given an article 15 because he got a pretty bad sunburn while snow skiing. Like me, he was not from a part of the country where people snow ski and know the snow's reflectivity can light you up worse than a day at the beach. Unlike me, he was willing to slap on the slats and go screaming down a mountain.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the topic and is just bitching about bad commanders, which isn't the same thing.

As far as auto correct, it is a blessing and a curse, and it decides which it want to be. :vs_laugh:


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

Medic33 - 

Apology accepted.

I was 21 and still had my head firmly lodged up my butt - didn't know any better at the time. I'm sure my wife would say that hasn't changed much. :vs_laugh:

No offense intended to anyone, but I think I'm going to eject out of this thread. I've derailed it more than enough and going back through all those memories is just making me feel tired.

Carry on gentlemen.


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