# A question about escape and evasion



## oregonmountainman (Mar 26, 2017)

Ok, just want some thoughts on a hypothetical situation. 

Its a SHTF/WROL scenario. You are on a family trip hundreds of miles from home when the brown stuff hits the fan. You are traveling on foot through unfamiliar territory with children (one around ten-ish and the other around 5-6) and your spouse. You come upon a possible source of food and supplies, but are surprised to find a bunch (lets say twelve) of heavily armed bad guys have already claimed it. They make it plain they want to kill you and do unspeakable things to your wife/kids. Through a combination of luck and stupidity on the part of the bad guys you and your family manage to get away unharmed, but the bad guys are on your tail. They are no serious fighters, just bullies used to relying on their numbers more than anything else. However, they are familiar with the surrounding area and your not. You are armed only with a sidearm (just for kicks lets say a Glock 17 with a couple of extra mags) and a pocketknife. You spend seven rounds in your escape to this point, managing to wing a couple of the bad guys and put them out of the chase. You have a backpack with some very basic food/supplies that you would expect for a camping trip but thats about it. 

How would you go about getting out of this less than desirable situation?


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

Finish watching the movie...let me know how it ends.


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## oregonmountainman (Mar 26, 2017)

Not sure what that means...but thanks for the reply, I guess


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

oregonmountainman said:


> Not sure what that means...but thanks for the reply, I guess


It means that it sounds like a movie. Those are scripted and you can pretty much guess how it ends.

The scenario you provided has no real details and even if it did, there are any number of ways to get away or get caught. An ordinary Joe like me with no training would have a much worse time of it than someone with a military background.


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## AnotherSOFSurvivor (Sep 7, 2016)

That's a whole lot of armchairing man...

Similar scenarios were gamed in SERE and ended up with some gigantic guy with sauage links for fingers slapping the shit out of me for a few days...(word of advice dont take a SERE slot like ever)

You should be training for forced movements over rough terrain, basic land nav (orientation) and stress shooting...and drilling it with your family. Thats the only way youll ever have a chance - is training as close as you can get.

I guess Ill throw you a bone...hope you know what direction the car is, that youre faster and that youre a good shot...


sent from a paper cup and string via quantum wierdness


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Leave the wife as a distraction and haul ass with the kids. Kids have a chance to survive with me so it looks like she has to take one for the team.


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## lupine14 (Mar 24, 2017)

Chipper said:


> Leave the wife as a distraction and haul ass with the kids. Kids have a chance to survive with me so it looks like she has to take one for the team.


What 'team?' If you can say such a thing even in jest, you have already shown that you're not very nice and no woman who isn't insane would trust you.  If the hypothetical wife here has any brains, she already knows she can't count on the husband not doing exactly as you suggest and will have made her own contingency plans and if she doesn't have any brains, nature will take its course and who needs more morons in the gene pool anyway? Chances are just as good that she could join the 'bad guys' and hunt the escapees with them and cheerfully help them hoist deadbeat husband onto a spit for the fire. Moral of the story: you are always strictly on your own, whether you know it or not.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Lighten up Francis.


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## Back Pack Hack (Sep 15, 2016)

I ain't hitched, and I ain't burdened down by rugrats. So it's a scenario that's not gonna happen for me. Using up a few calories theorizing favorable solutions just ain't worth it when I could be planning far more likely possibilities.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Yup. Just read the scenario.
If you find yourself in that situation, you are a screwed dude unless your screenwriter looks upon you favorably. You prep to avoid those situations, not to play the dashing hero or tragic hero, as the case may be.

Even though I am tragically dashing....


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Having only a few of them left, I would double back and ambush them on my terms.

If you are going to die go out like a man not running away. 

Send the family on while you prepare yourself.


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## inceptor (Nov 19, 2012)

Chipper said:


> Leave the wife as a distraction and haul ass with the kids. Kids have a chance to survive with me so it looks like she has to take one for the team.


Nah, the wife and I are a team. Besides being too damn old to be trying that s**t I will defend us both to the best of my ability. She's put up with me for 30+ years, married 28 of those. She has her job and I have mine. Part of my job being to protect and defend. I intend to honor that commitment.

Besides, what moron would just walk up to a place in that situation anyhow? Even I know to scout an area before boldly walking into that mess. And I've had no training in that realm. They won't be hiding, that's for sure. Too much machismo for a find like that.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

lupine14 said:


> What 'team?' If you can say such a thing even in jest, you have already shown that you're not very nice and no woman who isn't insane would trust you.  If the hypothetical wife here has any brains, she already knows she can't count on the husband not doing exactly as you suggest and will have made her own contingency plans and if she doesn't have any brains, nature will take its course and who needs more morons in the gene pool anyway? Chances are just as good that she could join the 'bad guys' and hunt the escapees with them and cheerfully help them hoist deadbeat husband onto a spit for the fire. Moral of the story: you are always strictly on your own, whether you know it or not.


Thats not necessarily true...Maybe the wife was sleeping around on the husband and was planning to divorce him and take all his money right up until the SHTF. Maybe the kids are some spoiled rotten little mommas boys whose real daddy was the milkman, while you were deployed 6 times fight Jihadis. I say try to trade the wife for your freedom...if they don't take that run... shoot your wife in the leg to slow her down then trip your kids down as you get in front of them.... Make it to high ground turn around and find a spot to watch the action.

As mommy starts getting hers,,,yelll out, how you like me now you ungrateful whore!!!!..... Then when the men starting smacking the kids around and threatening to bugger them,,,You yell out...I guess keeping your damn room clean is sounding quite good about now hunh you little crumb snatching pig headed ****ers. By this time the wife's screamin...Please Honey Help me!!!!! I would yell back down "spit on it first and then stretch it real wide"...."he looks like he's got a baton coming your way".... "just try to breath thru your nose pumpkin."...oooohhh damn...that looks likes its gonna leave a stretch mark.

Hey Billy...remember when you told me that you wished you were adopted...well you are...meet your real Daddy boys.

Then run away laughing at how you got out of Child support and alimony because SHTF..... The End


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## lupine14 (Mar 24, 2017)

Old SF Guy said:


> Thats not necessarily true...Maybe the wife was sleeping around on the husband and was planning to divorce him and take all his money right up until the SHTF. Maybe the kids are some spoiled rotten little mommas boys whose real daddy was the milkman, while you were deployed 6 times fight Jihadis. I say try to trade the wife for your freedom...if they don't take that run... shoot your wife in the leg to slow her down then trip your kids down as you get in front of them.... Make it to high ground turn around and find a spot to watch the action.
> 
> As mommy starts getting hers,,,yelll out, how you like me now you ungrateful whore!!!!..... Then when the men starting smacking the kids around and threatening to bugger them,,,You yell out...I guess keeping your damn room clean is sounding quite good about now hunh you little crumb snatching pig headed ****ers. By this time the wife's scream...Please Honey Help me!!!!! I would yell back down "spit on it first and then stretch it real wide"...."he looks like he's got a baton coming your way".... "just try to breath thru your nose pumpkin."...oooohhh damn...that looks likes gonna leave a stretch mark.
> 
> ...


LOL. Now, that's some proper creative writing! It's also a (dismayingly) realistic assessment of the values of our modern society. One does have to be prepared for just about anything these days, even in those we think we know.

George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four was thoroughly chilling in its prescience: the scene when the protagonist is finally broken, when he's frightened by all those white mice and wished them upon his girlfriend instead. Then he was released, for he was no longer a threat - because he had nothing left to defend but his own individual comfort. Every time I hear of another case of some poor individual getting beaten by thugs for no good reason, maybe in a store or fast food place, and nobody stands up to put a stop to it, other customers just looking down trying not to be noticed - and there's a new one at least twice a week somewhere in the country - I think of Winston Smith saying 'Do it to Julia, not me!'

For the last fifty years at least, the people that have been allowed to control public education in this country, and others in Western Europe, have waged unceasing war upon everything we care enough about to defend: our families, our culture, our history, our race, our values, just because if we have nothing worth defending, we too shall be defenseless and all we built and have can be taken from us. GK Chesterton put it perfectly in 'The New Jerusalem:' 'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.'
There are good reasons that nations always lasted much longer than empires and that is one of them.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Why shouldn't I work for the N.S.A.? That's a tough one, but I'll take a shot. 

Say I'm working at N.S.A. Somebody puts a code on my desk, something nobody else can break. Maybe I take a shot at it and maybe I break it. And I'm real happy with myself, 'cause I did my job well. But maybe that code was the location of some rebel army in North Africa or the Middle East. Once they have that location, they bomb the village where the rebels were hiding and fifteen hundred people I never met, never had no problem with, get killed. 

Now the politicians are sayin', "Oh, send in the Marines to secure the area" 'cause they don't give a shit. It won't be their kid over there, gettin' shot. Just like it wasn't them when their number got called, 'cause they were pullin' a tour in the National Guard. It'll be some kid from Southie takin' shrapnel in the ass. And he comes back to find that the plant he used to work at got exported to the country he just got back from. And the guy who put the shrapnel in his ass got his old job, 'cause he'll work for fifteen cents a day and no bathroom breaks. Meanwhile, he realizes the only reason he was over there in the first place was so we could install a government that would sell us oil at a good price. And, of course, the oil companies used the skirmish over there to scare up domestic oil prices. A cute little ancillary benefit for them, but it ain't helping my buddy at two-fifty a gallon. And they're takin' their sweet time bringin' the oil back, of course, and maybe even took the liberty of hiring an alcoholic skipper who likes to drink martinis and ****in' play slalom with the icebergs, and it ain't too long 'til he hits one, spills the oil and kills all the sea life in the North Atlantic. 

So now my buddy's out of work and he can't afford to drive, so he's got to walk to the ****in' job interviews, which sucks 'cause the shrapnel in his ass is givin' him chronic hemorrhoids. And meanwhile he's starvin', 'cause every time he tries to get a bite to eat, the only blue plate special they're servin' is North Atlantic scrod with Quaker State. 

So what did I think? I'm holdin' out for somethin' better. I figure **** it, while I'm at it why not just shoot my buddy, take his job, give it to his sworn enemy, hike up gas prices, bomb a village, club a baby seal, hit the hash pipe and join the National Guard? I could be elected president.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Police have recommended for years that by all means never let the felon(s) take you somewhere.

If you've prepped right, you have a hi-cap pistol, a sharp knife and numerous non-lethal weapons.

You fight it out right there--dispassionately, totally, and with all directives geared to termination.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

lupine14 said:


> LOL. Now, that's some proper creative writing! It's also a (dismayingly) realistic assessment of the values of our modern society. One does have to be prepared for just about anything these days, even in those we think we know.
> 
> George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four was thoroughly chilling in its prescience: the scene when the protagonist is finally broken, when he's frightened by all those white mice and wished them upon his girlfriend instead. Then he was released, for he was no longer a threat - because he had nothing left to defend but his own individual comfort. Every time I hear of another case of some poor individual getting beaten by thugs for no good reason, maybe in a store or fast food place, and nobody stands up to put a stop to it, other customers just looking down trying not to be noticed - and there's a new one at least twice a week somewhere in the country - I think of Winston Smith saying 'Do it to Julia, not me!'
> 
> ...


To answer honestly, I love my Wife and my kids.....well most of them anyways... and would never leave them to a biker gang or like. They would already know the spot to link up... (the 2nd rally point behind where we are at that point). They would take off and I would use every round I had to slow/deter pursuit of them...and when possible I would haul ass too, but leading them away from the 2nd rally point. My wife and kids would set up an ambush around the 2nd rally point. If they stay in pursuit of me and I can't lose them, I will circle them back through the rally point saying the running password so they know not to shoot my ass then take up a position at the far end, creating an L shaped ambush...where one of my kids will be with his rifle...

If we have no weapons....Then My wife will probably do what I described in the first answer to me.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

@Old SF Guy, spoken like a man set on business, not role play heroism.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

I'd sneak back and contaminate their foodstores then wait, watch, and laugh, as they shit their brains out.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Interesting thread and responses ... thanks guys. Everyone and their situation is different. My kids are either away in college or working in another State (one dumbass kid just moved to California for a job. I hope it tanks and he gets back to Texas.)

I love the "when the brown stuff hits the fan" reference, don't remember hearing that one.


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## Coastie dad (Jan 2, 2016)

Did we overwhelm the OP with our ruthless bravado?


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## RJAMES (Dec 23, 2016)

I would write the end like this. 


I would head uphill and try and get a overlook position someplace to ambush them from - someplace to hide. Have the kids keep moving and make noise about it. with only one gun only one person capable of using the gun needs to stay would be better to have two adults stay back to fight one with the gun one with the knife. 

Get in hide position and let the first of the group go by attack the tail and get their guns. You got one chance that is to get their guns and ammo. 

If their buddies are hurt and they see the wife below they will let the kids go on- WHY ARE THEY STILL CHASING YOU IS A WEAK PART OF YOUR STORY . 

Every movie I see the hero kills a guy with a full automatic long gun- M4 type weapon with lots of ammo but keeps using his semi automatic pistol even if the fight is outside at a distance. 

Had an Uncle who made it to the party just in time arriving near St Vith in the Ardennes on the 14 Dec 1944. He told me that once the counter attack was made that the spring of 45 was nothing but day after day of running up on a roadbock at a bridge, bend in the road or village. By late spring the Germans did not have much just 10 to 20 troops with rifles, grenades and a few machine guns. Often just 14 to 16 year old boys and a couple WWI Vets. The thing is they hit them hard hoping they would break and run leaving behind just enough ammunition and perhaps a little fuel in a truck. His platoon had a jeep but they often had to push it or get fuel to take back and fill it so it could be brought forward. They kept their issued guns on the jeep but used captured rifles, machine guns and ammo. They were moving so fast that sometimes it was 5 to 10 days before they got a resupply. They were lucky to get a meal a day and then it was often finding the seed potatoes that the German farmers were saving to plant and eating them and the last of the chickens. Issued a piece of paper and hoped that the guys following them had food to make it good as the population was starving at that time. 

They did not want to wait for resupply as that would give the Germans a chance to get a defense set and every day waiting was one more day in hell. He said he took a hot shower on the 15 Dec got to take his next shower and put on new clean cloths on the 26th April. He did try and wash his feet whenever he could at least once a day he change socks, washing them out even when there was no soap. 

Never leave a weapon or ammo if you can avoid it.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Did somebody mistake this for a fantasy site again....

if you want to discuss escape and evasion cool.... but to lay out like this is crazy...

but I will play..first I need to know a few things

1. is there a creek, stream or river handy
2. did I pack the spare grenades
3. are the bad guys in shape or fat
4. are we in a field area or woods, what time of day is it, how long before dark
5. are my wife and kids in shape
6. where is my car
7. did the bad guys have cars
8. are there houses in the area
9. is there an airport around
10. did I pack my superman costume


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## lupine14 (Mar 24, 2017)

Old SF Guy said:


> To answer honestly, I love my Wife and my kids.....well most of them anyways... and would never leave them to a biker gang or like. They would already know the spot to link up... (the 2nd rally point behind where we are at that point). They would take off and I would use every round I had to slow/deter pursuit of them...and when possible I would haul ass too, but leading them away from the 2nd rally point. My wife and kids would set up an ambush around the 2nd rally point. If they stay in pursuit of me and I can't lose them, I will circle them back through the rally point saying the running password so they know not to shoot my ass then take up a position at the far end, creating an L shaped ambush...where one of my kids will be with his rifle...
> 
> If we have no weapons....Then My wife will probably do what I described in the first answer to me.


This is practical. Well explained, and you touch on an important point when you've a family to consider: in order to function effectively as a team, every individual in that family, any who are not still actually a babe in arms, must think as a hunter, not as prey being chased, and continue to think as an individual too - that's in case things don't turn out as expected and they almost never do anyway. The sooner you can put your attackers on the defensive, instead of yourselves, the better. One of the things that makes guerilla wars hard to fight, even for armies, is that they are not fighting against other armies; rather they are being hit on all sides by every man, woman and child. A group of thugs doesn't have the discipline, experience and resources of an army so for them, it's going to be death by a thousand cuts.



Mad Trapper said:


> I'd sneak back and contaminate their foodstores then wait, watch, and laugh, as they shit their brains out.


This is a very good idea! We should all keep a case or two of contaminated beer and liquor available, for that's so often the first thing criminals want to steal and almost none can resist the temptation.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Quickly read thru the scripts and manuals here. Can't relate since I never had kids, but assuming I latched on to a couple of nephews or nieces and playing along I didn't see this answer. I'd make sure wife and the kids hall ass. Don't look back, don't stop, keep going till you drop then get up and go again. I'd separate to a flank, wait for them to pass and try to nab a weakest link. I'd wait a little to give me some time then I'd make him scream bloody murder in hopes his thugs think they went past us and come back. When they get back they'll find a pretty horrific scene probably including a slippy spike. I'll then be on my way to another flanking spot to repeat the effort in case I failed to get thru to them the first time.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

oregonmountainman said:


> Ok, just want some thoughts on a hypothetical situation.
> 
> Its a SHTF/WROL scenario. You are on a family trip hundreds of miles from home when the brown stuff hits the fan. You are traveling on foot through unfamiliar territory with children (one around ten-ish and the other around 5-6) and your spouse. You come upon a possible source of food and supplies, but are surprised to find a bunch (lets say twelve) of heavily armed bad guys have already claimed it. They make it plain they want to kill you and do unspeakable things to your wife/kids. Through a combination of luck and stupidity on the part of the bad guys you and your family manage to get away unharmed, but the bad guys are on your tail. They are no serious fighters, just bullies used to relying on their numbers more than anything else. However, they are familiar with the surrounding area and your not. You are armed only with a sidearm (just for kicks lets say a Glock 17 with a couple of extra mags) and a pocketknife. You spend seven rounds in your escape to this point, managing to wing a couple of the bad guys and put them out of the chase. You have a backpack with some very basic food/supplies that you would expect for a camping trip but thats about it.
> 
> How would you go about getting out of this less than desirable situation?


Three big difficulties: 1) vastly out numbered (but they seem not to have weapons or you would already be gone I would think), 2) whether they do or not, you must assume they know the area better than you, 3) wife and children are cumbersome to deal with.

ASSUMING all the above to be correct, . . . the two things you have GOING for you are the Glock and the element of surprise.

Run for a good 15 minutes, . . . in a straight line, . . . as best you can, . . . and look for a hill you can get to the top of. Then looking back, . . . you should be able to see if you are being pursued, . . . they, coming down the other side of the hill should be visible from your vantage point.

Put the wife and kids in a good hidden spot, . . . not very far from you, . . . conceal yourself well, . . . and ambush them. Your squeamishness will determine your shot placement. IF YOU ARE a good enough shot, . . . it's about as easy to hit a knee or a face. A 9mm hp will destroy a knee, . . . causing great anguish, pain, cursing, swearing, and screaming, . . . and may get him and two of his best buds to drag him back to camp. OTOH, . . . a 9mm hp in the leader's nose, . . . will cause the back of his head to erupt upon all those close behind, . . . and just may discourage any more pursuit. That is a bloody, sorry looking mess, . . . and kills him right real good and dead, . . . but at least HE will not pursue you any more.

DO NOT use follow up shots unless you are rushed by the group. That single, devastating shot, . . . will put the fear in them, . . . and you cannot waste your ammo. Be sure of your target, . . . take him down.

Shoot, . . . and immediately move, . . . try to be as noiseless as possible, . . . but get away from the place you shot from. They will either quit or come to it. Either way, you do not want to be there. Get momma and the younguns, . . . run for another 15 minutes, . . . set up another ambush, . . . repeat as needed.

Two, three, or four kneecaps or exploded skulls should be adequate to end the chase. Just be sure to keep moving, . . . you or momma stay awake at all times, . . . while the other one sleeps. Depending on the 10 yr old, . . . maybe can be drafted into sentry duty.

Good luck...........may God bless,
Dwight


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Humans are good at inventing fictitious world's in their head then insist on moving in and living there. hmmm


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

All this makes sense--except in Madison, Wisconsin, home to most inept gang bangers in recorded ethnic history. Our Chief once commented that there had been 50 exchanges--not hits.

It reminded me of the school that served farm kids. The teacher asked them, "If you saw ten crows on a fence, and shot one, how many would be left."

A boy raised his hand and proudly said, "None. After the first shot, they rest will fly away."

We had a mall shooting last year--one round was fired. Turns out one wannabee wanted to show another wannabee, a .32 ACP girl's pistol. He drew it from his pants with his finger inside the trigger guard and promptly shot himself in the leg. 

The entire mall emptied out, just like all the crows.

The conventional wisdom is to fight the biggest bully and the minions will flee. Not here, pick any banger--even from a competing gang--and shoot him. Within seconds you'll be alone in a totally empty mall...


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## warrior4 (Oct 16, 2013)

Best practice would be to avoid the fight for as long as possible in the first place. In unfamiliar territory that's especially true. So if the bad guys already have the supplies, and you've got your head on you shoulders ideally you'd see that first and slink off and let them have their supplies and try to find easier supplies to get a hold of. One has to be thinking risk vs. gain. Is the risk worth the reward? If outnumbered with dependents armed only with a pistol, discretion seems the better part of valor. Even running away for long enough is a valid idea to consider. If you can stay ahead of them for long enough there could come a time when they'll be more worried about their supplies back at their base rather than catching you.

If forced to use force I'd agree with those who have said go for the leader(s) first if possible. Use your advantage of surprise. If possible two or three well placed head shots can have a powerful effect. Since we're considering this group of bad guys to basically be bullies that are not serious fighters, chopping the head off the snake would probably work well. For an average middle class nuclear family yes this scenario could prove disastrous. However most of the people on this board have their preps and mindsets ready to deal with a variety of situations, including being able to defend themselves.


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## Notold63 (Sep 18, 2016)

You would be so screwed. Using the situation given, your only option is to run, which may be difficult handicapped with the children. What you need to think about are ways to slow the bad goys down (traps, pitfalls, fire, etc..) and to speed up your your family's travel (found bicycles, boats if rivers, carts, etc). Your biggest hope would be to have the bad guys decide that chasing you is to much trouble/pain.


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## ND_ponyexpress_ (Mar 20, 2016)

hundreds of miles from home.. to where are you going to run? if you defeat this "gang" there will likely be more the next day.. planning to hoof it home? 3 mph, 5h/day (in the dark) escape and evade for 20 days minimum with out supplies and unprepared....


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