# Ammo Question 7.62 x 51



## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Sorry to be such a newbie but I'm trying to figure out how to feed a new M1A.

For practice I was thinking this
960 Round Case - 7.62x51 NATO 146 grain FMJ Hirtenberger Surplus Ammo 1970s Vintage | SGAmmo.com

There are some other options. PPC, this new ZQ stuff, and winchester at about .60 a round. There are plenty of practice options so I am not concerned about which direction to go.

For defense. That is my question. What is a good round to use in an M1A for defense?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Got this from another site. Someone emailed Springfield, and this is the response they received:

Good afternoon, 
Thank you for your email. 
The M1A rifles are designed to use either .308 commercial or 7.62X51 NATO ammo: 
308: 
-Between a 110 grain and 180 grain bullet 
-Full metal jacket, hollow point, or ballistic tip 
Do not use soft point ammo 
-Do not use "light magnum" type ammo 
-We do not recommend steel case ammo

7.62X51: 
-Clean and from sealed containers 
-NATO spec 
-Do not use "loose" or "bulk" ammo

For best accuracy use: 
-Federal Match 168 or 175 grain 
-Hornaday Match/Custom 168 grain 
-Hornaday TAP. 110 or 168 grain 
-Blackhills Match 168 or 175 grain

Mitch Prather [[email protected]]


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The email says no bulk or loose ammo, but that is what I use - 175 grain Lake City.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Your manual in PDF.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/M1AManual.pdf

Seems to suggest something different.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I have used a variety of 7.62 NATO including South African (excellent, but mostly gone from the market), Lake City, PPC (South Korean).
STAY AWAY from the Indian military surplus - it is junk.
For self defense, military full metal jacket will work. I do, however, keep one magazine handy loaded with Remington Core Locked soft points.

I have used Wolf steel cased, but there is a lot of carbon fouling. I have 10 boxes of this on hand for dire emergencies.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

If you are new to the M1A, I suggest you spend time on the following forums
M14 Forum - M14 Forum for M14 M1A Rifles
The M14 Battle Rifle Forum
:encouragement:


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

7.62x51 is a lower pressure round than the .308, which you probably knew. 

Military 7.62x51 comes in two varieties rifle and machinegun, I suggest staying away from the machinegun ammo as it was never intended for use in a rifle. 

My preference is Winchester (white box) Q3031, if I can find it.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Seneca said:


> Military 7.62x51 comes in two varieties rifle and machinegun, I suggest staying away from the machinegun ammo as it was never intended for use in a rifle.


Are you sure about that? Back in the day we have unlinked M60 ammo for use in M14's.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

The M80 ball was used either in the linked belt form and boxed or clipped in bandoleers.
There was no such restriction as for machine gun only.
M80 ball is M80 ball, period.
Some of it was degraded and repacked on links for CONUS use only.
I Spent 25 years as an armorer in the guard 10 of which as a match armorer.
We use to delink it for match practice, saving the M118, I kept the tracer.

The Hirtenberger is generally good ammo, meets NATO standards.


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks for the links and info. I have much to learn.


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

stowlin, don't know if you ever saw one of those "Go See Cal" California car commercials? (Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_Worthington ) So if you want a 7.62 NATO, go see Mel. LOL.
Here is a link: History of the M118 Ammunition - Sniper Central 
You might enjoy reading this. JMHO.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Denton said:


> Got this from another site. Someone emailed Springfield, and this is the response they received:
> 
> Good afternoon,
> Thank you for your email.
> ...


'nuff said.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Maybe I was misinformed about not using machine gun ammo, however in Denton initial post which is an email from Springfield Armory it is also listed as do not use. It's your rifle run what you want to run through it. That's your choice. My self? I'll stick to what's recommended.


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

I've got no problem with running Bi-Metal surplus during the initial break in as long as the proper procedures are followed. The only problem encountered with American Made M80 Ball ammo is the extra throat erosion attributed to ball propellants. But if you are a progressive loader using easy flow ball powders it doesn't make a difference anyway. Both M852 and M118 use extruded powders and have far lower dispersion patterns along with extended barrel life so I'd Highly Recommend their use.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Seneca said:


> Maybe I was misinformed about not using machine gun ammo, however in Denton initial post which is an email from Springfield Armory it is also listed as do not use. It's your rifle run what you want to run through it. That's your choice. My self? I'll stick to what's recommended.


I do not see where it says do not use.
"Loose or bulk" is pretty ambiguous at the least.
That list says M80 by saying NATO SPEC, whether it is in link or not it is the same.

What SA is referring to is the mixed unknown stuff like century sold, there is junk out there.
There are several commercial companies loading M80 ball today, cheaper than using match ammo for general range use.
There are several countries that use 308, but their loadings do not conform to NATO specs.
Keep away from such as pakistan, HS=POF, Czech is corrosive. 
Look you can find a list of bad stuff. 
I have a few cases of the corrosive that is sealed in tins and crated, to me it is Alamo only ammo. 
Some of the best stuff I found was the Spanish, Santa Barbara, have 20 cases of it left in the bunker.
German, South African and British are some of the better ones.

These are the extracts from the list:
The M1A rifles are designed to use either .308 commercial or 7.62X51 NATO ammo: 
7.62X51: -Clean and from sealed containers -NATO spec.

They say as you can see, NATO spec, M80 IS NATO spec.
M118 and M852 are match grade NATO spec rounds.

M118LR, I get a mean average of 6,000 rounds of M80 out of a tube before I replace it.
Roughly 5,000 using match ammo with a match mean r.. 
Is that good enough for you?

I will repeat this once more, I spent 10 years as a USANG match armorer, Attended the AMTU three times.
During my time as armorer we would consume 20,000 a season of M80 for general practice in our M14NM rifles.
Much of that ammo was delinked by us for usage, Clipped or boxed was not always available on the ammunition forecast.
The M118 was Saved for the 300 and 600 yard ranges.

Last but not least, 
there is no restrictions in either the FM or TM.
I have made a living specializing on M1 garands and M14/M1a's for over 30 years..


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

We shot 308's stripped from the belts for the M60 in the M24's all of the time. Never had an issue with it.


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

SOCOM42, both hummer and the folks we run with get Sub MOA results for far more than 6K rounds out of modern barrels using extruded powder loads. 
1970-2016=46 years perhaps you should reevaluate what over 30 years equates to? Some of this conversation is on the other side of 50 years, as much as we hate to believe it. 
Folks made a living carrying M14's after M1's and they did that over 50 years ago. Last I knew armorer's where not operators, one fixed what the others broke in the field. Use em's didn't fix em's, and fix em's couldn't use em's. Just my recollections. No Blood, No Foul, Thanks for your contributions to the War effort.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

M118, Other than as an armorer, I worked at depot level, if you know what that means.
Where the hell do you think the M25 came from?
Fifty years, 30 years? what are you referring to?
Do you think I dropped off the map for the last 30?
I have been working on M14's since 1958, that is over 57 years continuous, Started at H&R with the production of them. 
I still work on them today, both M14's, M1's and M1A's.
Over the last three weeks I have rebarreled two M1A'a and an M1, have two more to overhaul this coming week.
They come in here from all over the country for overhaul.

Yeah, as an individual, handloader, you can do better, my job was to provide for the all round combat users.
Most readers here do not reload like on the gun forums, they are looking for usable advice with available products, 
not starting a whole new hobby.
Further, 
you only deal with your own or at one time a units weapons, I on the other hand have had to deal with the broad picture, whole different animal.
I had to use issue ammunition as required for combat, not mexican match.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

There were so called custom rounds AKA hand loaded ones for the M24. However there was a limited supply of those. So if you wanted to burn rounds with the M24's . 
It was simple there were more rounds than you knew what to do with for the M60. grab a belt and strip them off.
It has been awhile. But as I remember the barrels on the M24 preformed much better than expected and lasted many 1000's more round. and accuracy got better after a 1000 rounds down range. 
The 2 M24's I purchased from the Remington rehab came like new. Many of them had not had many round put through them. I have heard of a few of them still in inventory for active duty but I have been away for to long now.
I hear the one to have now is the M2010 win 300 mag. They say with custom loads 1500 to 1800 meters


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Smitty, if you get one, keep the load down on the 300 they wash out rather quickly.
A lot of units did hand loading, but limited.
The AMU was always loading.
The point here as said is for the non "operator" types who are learning.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I have used a variety of 7.62 NATO including South African (excellent, but mostly gone from the market), Lake City, PPC (South Korean).
> STAY AWAY from the Indian military surplus - it is junk.
> For self defense, military full metal jacket will work. I do, however, keep one magazine handy loaded with Remington Core Locked soft points.
> 
> I have used Wolf steel cased, but there is a lot of carbon fouling. I have 10 boxes of this on hand for dire emergencies.


The 150gr remington core lock SP shoot about same POI as 150 FMJ and feed well despite warnings from SAI about soft points. Work excellent on most game. If you are rolling your own look at sierra MK or GK in 165/168 gr and IMR 4064/4895/3031 powders

A great resource: M14 Forum - M14 Forum for M14 M1A Rifles

Edit: MG rounds the problem is used brass which gets beat to crap and proper resizing.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> Smitty, if you get one, keep the load down on the 300 they wash out rather quickly.
> A lot of units did hand loading, but limited.
> The AMU was always loading.
> The point here as said is for the non "operator" types who are learning.


 I have 2 packed away. Purchased them from Remington Rebuild program many years ago. Only fired them a couple times cleaned them a few times and packed them away. When I purchased them I kept telling myself it was a waste and to much money. Seems I was wrong about that now.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

M118LR why don't you drop over to The M14 Battle Rifle Forum and ask if T44E4 has any background knowledge in relation to the M14 and M1 Garand.
It seems as if you are in a loop, but you are now a civilian, yes you shoot them, so do I, not as much today, too much leg and back problems.
I also know how to reload and did for a long time for M72 match and M118 match.
My forte' is in building them, I don't like to post on my background, but you think you are the overall expert, so,
Have you ever had anything related to your expertise published?
Well, I have been, in 18 different books and mags, some are by Senich, Chandler, Duff, Kuhnhausen and the American Rifleman.
I did not go to the writers and say lookie see what I done, they all came to me.
I don't post things that might be ambiguous, but from personal background experience, I don't like talking out my ass like some on here.


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

Tell you what SOCOM42, let's meet up at a Naval Special Warfare Association Function and you can expound upon how much you have published that passed through the Chief of Naval Operations Office! You should know the drill: Operator, Organizational Level Maintenance, Depot Level Maintenance, Manufacturer or DSRMO. Those of us that rode with "Uncle Ollie" seem to have "I Can't Recall" syndrome. Pulling a trigger is at best a secondary skill (MOS). Now if you find any publications referencing Big M's Black Squadron, then we can find another media to palaver. Usually it will be within an SCI Space with many levels of code words required for entrance. 

Overall expert? Naw, just one of the operators that gave the guy in the Oval Office Plausible Deniability! Carlos Heathcock to Chris Kyle, those where your published overall experts. From operation Igloo White to Deliberate Force I just rode the wave of anonymity. We already discussed our once possible meeting under an Indiana Sun, but I don't understand you calling me out for posting a link to Mel's published works? But I still receive invitations to range seminars just because today's Warriors can glean from yesteryear. Those kid's at Fort Stewart with the fanciest of today's 7.62 NATO Toys got some "Old Time Religion" and an even deeper commitment to exercise the tools of the trade. But if you make me admonish you SOCOM42, I'll stand by you for what you made. But I have no leg to stand upon for how, or whom, or what, or when you used what you crafted.

Bottom Line: All you have done is in support of the "WAR EFFORT" to which I Thank You. Your achievements have contributed greatly to many of US anonymous-es coming "Home". I am sorry that we don't invite you and your kind to the operators reunions, perhaps it is a failing that we should correct. But I personally Thank You and all the other Americans that Labored behind the Lime-light for the benefit of this Country. You and many. many, others are the unsung Hero's that truly make America the Land of the Brave because of the Free. I'll buy should we meet face to face. Smokey Stover's Word!


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

SOCOM42 said:


> M118LR why don't you drop over to The M14 Battle Rifle Forum and ask if T44E4 has any background knowledge in relation to the M14 and M1 Garand.
> It seems as if you are in a loop, but you are now a civilian, yes you shoot them, so do I, not as much today, too much leg and back problems.
> I also know how to reload and did for a long time for M72 match and M118 match.
> My forte' is in building them, I don't like to post on my background, but you think you are the overall expert, so,
> ...


What was your favorite recipe for M118 going into a M1A?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Ya know, I'm just an ex-E5 who served 2 years, 8 months and 28 days. Definitely no hero, no "operator". Just a soldier.:armata_PDT_15:

But I did learn a few things, like the difference between war stories and fairy tales is one starts out "There I was" and the other "Once upon a time".

And things might have changed in the last 45-50 years, but among guys I know, those that talk the loudest usually have done the least.:-o

And like someone else said, "I don't like talking out my ass like some here." :armata_PDT_26:


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Ya know, I'm just an ex-E5 who served 2 years, 8 months and 28 days. Definitely no hero, no "operator". Just a soldier.:armata_PDT_15:
> 
> But I did learn a few things, like the difference between war stories and fairy tales is one starts out "There I was" and the other "Once upon a time".
> 
> ...


You are holding back RPD. One starts out "This is no S--T, and the other begins Once Upon a Time, The other starts as Ducks can fly out my A--"

And this the first moment that we have ever crossed the I've been there and done that moment....... Bonafide FROGMAN rice paddy daddy........ only came here out of respect for your lead....... Don't make me do it...... Like I've been rightly told by Denton, we are all just cog's in the War Machine Wheel...... JMHO.


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## New guy 101 (Dec 17, 2014)

Well at least he did extend the olive branch out to Socom, of course after sprayed his musk on it so we'd know who the alpha is.

I'm not gonna say he ain't what he says he is...he could be a she for all I know, have you seen Christine Beck lately? She'd kick all our asses.

I will just thank both of them for their services and all the veteran here. And to the mods I say shame on you for not adding a measurement app to the forum for interactions like this....call it a dicometer.... would have saved a lot of references to acronyms I know not of.


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

I'll stand up for both rice paddy daddy and SOCOM42, so if you want to cast dispersion's on what they say they are, just PM me with your Class Number and we can debate the rest. JMHO. F with me, leave them alone. JMHO.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Mad Trapper said:


> What was your favorite recipe for M118 going into a M1A?


173GR. SMK with 41.5-43.0GR. of IMR 4895, IIRC.
I should add, used 168GR also. That was 35 years ago!
I used 180GR MKHP in the 0/6 mod 70 HB.
Variance in powder was for individual rifles. 
Used LC match brass.
Now and for a long time, use M80 only, no competition anymore, besides it is being dominated by the mouse gun.
I have a lot of M852 that I use for bench testing rebuilds, have to use a scope to make up for the eyes.


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

SOCOM42, don't bother arguing with folks that ain't ever shoot past 600 yards. Save the good stuff for folks like Hummerville and I. JMHO. Believe me when I tell you that H20 MAN wants to have a conversation with you.


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## New guy 101 (Dec 17, 2014)

I wasn't casting anything...said I will take you at your word. And you gotta chip on your shoulder there fella...just in case you didn't know...if you think I'm F...with you your wrong....and I don't mess about with someone's service unless they wanna start a dick measuring contest with me....then what you did back in your hay day are irrelevant to the right now. 
I don't fear no man...buddy and I got ghost stories of my own...but I'm not using them to make my way on this forum. I said thanks for your service...but I ain't gonna look at you like Gods gift to me...you did your job, and I appreciate very much. Let's leave it at that.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

Hey New Guy, Don't remember you telling me that you where a Vet. So before you try to rub my rhubarb speak splain! 

About that measuring contest, after you have patted the frog's butt, then you can earn the opportunity to whip out "Old Blue" and We shall measure the manner of man you really are. 

Till then, just sit on the sidelines like all the other I never measured up kibitzers. :lol:


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Did I wander into the VFW bar by mistake?


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## New guy 101 (Dec 17, 2014)

M118LR said:


> Hey New Guy, Don't remember you telling me that you where a Vet. So before you try to rub my rhubarb speak splain!
> 
> About that measuring contest, after you have patted the frog's butt, then you can earn the opportunity to whip out "Old Blue" and We shall measure the manner of man you really are.
> 
> Till then, just sit on the sidelines like all the other I never measured up kibitzers.


I tell you what, out of respect for the OP...I say feel free to start your frog bottom patting thread and I'll swing by and give it a swat for you sunshine. I'm gonna hope this thread gets back to why I started reading it which was a reloading question. You can impress me with your amphibious endeavors there. Call it the lily pad and we can have all night to banter about.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Did I wander into the VFW bar by mistake?


AHH, yup! I took a wrong turn, I do not drink at all, I know why now.


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Did I wander into the VFW bar by mistake?


Who's picking up the TAB?

And this isn't sent from a driod, we don't serve thier kind here. (to quote Star Wars)

Now about your 7.62 NATO or .308 Win questions, ask away and I'll do my uneducated best to answer them NG101. (You can kiss a little Frog Butt and make up later)


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> AHH, yup! I took a wrong turn, I do not drink at all, I know why now.


Although I have held various positions at the VFW over the years, the bar is ONE place I avoid.
Too many guys who think they are badasses with the biker vests, tattoos, head wraps, beards and pony tails.


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Although I have held various positions at the VFW over the years, the bar is ONE place I avoid.
> Too many guys who think they are badasses with the biker vests, tattoos, head wraps, beards and pony tails.


5-8 160 ain't a badass anymore, drive a pickup, Do have a couple of tattoos but they only reflect the ribbons in my shadow box, ain't got enough hair left for pony tails or head wraps, limited the beard after my Granddaughter asked her Mom why G-Pa had snow on his face. Ain't been in the VFW, AM Legion, or Fleet Reserve since I deciphered that the largest inebriated Marine would need to prove his manhood once someone let slip my past service. I'm just so much of a Hell Raiser ain't I. :lol:


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## M118LR (Sep 19, 2015)

But to get back on topic, if you'd like some background history and don't mind a little reading? Link: A Short History of National Match Rifle Ammunition


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## keith9365 (Apr 23, 2014)

I use whatever brass cased 7.62 NATO I can find cheap. In my FAL I have used Portuguese and Hirtenberger surplus, commercial Turkish, and Federal XM80C. All shoot well. I did find that in the 200 round Portuguese battle packs about 5-10 rounds had dead primers.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

My experience with the Portuguese battle packs is nearly identical, about 5% of them were duds.


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