# Breaching Your Defenses/Takers Keepers



## Go2ndAmend (Apr 5, 2013)

Assuming some sort of general collapse of society, how long do you think you would be able to defend your home against whatever human threat you deem most likely to intrude? I have given this topic a good bit of thought lately and was wondering what everyone else's views are? I very much doubt an all out attack by a determined, well-trained military unit and at least at the beginning envision a more intense version of a "standard" home invasion type of robbery with 2-4 people intent on taking what's mine. My property is approachable from only 2 directions and I have hundreds of yards of stand off distance and only one road in that is easily blocked. I do intend some upgrades next year to provide a more early warning system and to make the approach more difficult. What are your thoughts?


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

I don't get the feeling either way if you feel you can repel such an attack, your post is unclear but as is usual I have an opinion

4 well trained attackers into my home will suffer 50% casualties if I am alone. Yes I know that mean I die but I accept that premise.

If my son OR daughter are with me (both active or recently retired military) then we win and I do not expect any casualties.

Don't think about the 100 yards before they get to your home, if you have the luxury of being alert and sniping them as they come up your drive then woohoo you win.

If you don't have that luxury, then I suggest taking them at your choke points (usually the door entrance) and concentrating fire there. regardless of their body armor you will have great success where they bunch up in your doorway.

There is a reason they throw flash bangs before they enter, if you anticipate those and cover up, its a turkey shoot. If you don't anticipate the flash bangs or grenades, just keep shooting in 1 second increments where you remember the door frame is and it will be better than nothing.

In essence we are all employing in mass, the more that resist the more of the attackers we kill and the more preppers that survive. I want to skull **** the pansies I see online that say to burry your guns and covertly comply with the law, I say shoot as many as you can and they will eventually stop their illegal raids on our constitutional rights.

oh crapo I may be on a watch list now.


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## TMCertified (May 8, 2013)

I I was thinking about this recently too. I live in a very populated area but found 5 acres that is pretty secluded considering that I'm basically in a big metropolis. First there are going to be a ton of easy opportunities that people will seek out before they get into our area or try to go to this backwood area of the city. Secondly within the backwoods area I'm tucked away very far back with only one road getting to me. After that I'm going to have a fence that they will need a ladder to climb as it is a no climb fence. My thoughts are that they will skip my area and move on to something easier. There are hundreds of houses if not thousands in a 5 mile radius that would be much easier to get into and out of that I really am not that worried about. Maybe I'm too confident but I'm thinking that if the shtf that people will be going after those easy communities that houses sit on top of each other before trecking out into the woods.


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## TMCertified (May 8, 2013)

The other thing is down my road there is a huge mansion at the start of it that has absolutely no protection or fence, then another house beside it with basically nothing, then if they do trek to the very end my neighbor has an easily scaleable 4ft fence that I hope I'll be able to see what is going on or hear something before they get to me. Plus I'll have beware of Dog, beware of gun, beware of crazy *******, whatever I need to deter them and make them think twice about coming to me. I just think at that point there will be plenty of easier targets with less or zero risk. Why chance my property. That is my thoughts though open for other opinions.


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## TMCertified (May 8, 2013)

Ahhh I'm sorry I keep posting just keep thinking of something else. When I was first looking at this property I was told to go to this one guys house that he knew a lot about the properties there. Well he was completely fenced and gated in with all sorts of trespassing and dog and gun signs and even though I wasn't an intruder, I decided not to go knock on his door haha. I think a lot of people just will not even want to play around unless you are the only thing out there and it is life or death that they get to you and you alone.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

TMCertifited, what does that mean, sorry for the distraction


I hope you update your profile to tell us where you are at, it makes a lot of difference. Obviously most people do not have the ability to move around and that creates some prepper problems.

I have a LOT of space around my house but my main engagement zone is close in, most rational beings will attack in the dark with no warning. For the most part you will do better sleeping in the day and sitting with your rifle pointed at the door in the night time waiting for the assault.

That is my opinion and if you have a choice be waiting at the door about 1 hour before light


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## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

That's a good question and I too have thought about it alot. I don't want to give away too much of my defenses/surprises but feel very good about what I have in place and would like to think I can hold my own for a good while!. My house is secured on 3 sides (no doubt). I have sensors on my property and I know if you are coming, camera's on, there you are, see you now! I have heavy duty 3M security film on the windows so good luck breaking them! If you are not familiar with the 3M film check it out! I have re-enforced the doors, garage doors too! I have a nice variety of weaponry to greet anyone with should I need to. My neighbors most of them are armed very well too, and for those that are not armed when the day comes I have SKS and Mosin Nagant rifles and some ammo for them and a 10 minute crash course on watching each others backs! I think it would be quite awhile before some military unit rolls down my street but any thug or 2 or even small gang would have a big surprise in store for them coming near here! My gut feeling is we don't have a whole lot longer before SHTF and it's time to act on whatever plan you have!

SDF880

SDF880


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## punch (Nov 6, 2012)

Hey Montana! I sure like the way you think. I feel its better to be blunt and to the point than wishy washy and never get your point across. Drop one looter at long distance and message rec'd and understood. If they want to come in the house after that, I'm no sniper, its 00 Buck and what ever else I can throw in the mix. I'm kind of an inconsider d*ck to uninvited guest. But thats me... I'm funny that way.

punch


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm in a trailer,thin aluminum siding and thin paneling with 2 x 2 studs. Not long, so don't worry, be happy.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Go2ndAmend said:


> Assuming some sort of general collapse of society, how long do you think you would be able to defend your home against whatever human threat you deem most likely to intrude? I have given this topic a good bit of thought lately and was wondering what everyone else's views are? I very much doubt an all out attack by a determined, well-trained military unit and at least at the beginning envision a more intense version of a "standard" home invasion type of robbery with 2-4 people intent on taking what's mine. My property is approachable from only 2 directions and I have hundreds of yards of stand off distance and only one road in that is easily blocked. I do intend some upgrades next year to provide a more early warning system and to make the approach more difficult. What are your thoughts?


At this point, . . . I figure to be able to survive through the first 400 rounds, . . . then I have to reload.

You may laugh, . . . but Montana has the idea, . . . hole up, . . . make em come to you, . . . hit em in the choke points, . . . make em dodge the barricades.

I've even thought about making a plaster mold of the old fashioned Claymore, . . . "This side towards enemy", . . . sitting them out on posts around, . . . with wires coming out of them, . . .

Anyone who knows what one "could" do would just find some other place to be.

May God bless,
Dwight

May God bless,
Dwight


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

I live in a mobile home military style assaults don't think so. Mobs people who have experience with mobs say first two drop rest will run. Home invaders drop a couple of them the rest are off for easier pickings. I once had a guy trying to sell me an overpriced AR. He told me "You wouldn't want to take on a renegade SEAL Team with anything less than this!" If I'm taking on SEAL Team's single handed my goal is not survival anymore it's simply to not go down alone!


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

A 5 foot tall chain link fence with an adjoining 6 foot tall wooden fence and a few beware of dog signs and a loud barker,even if not hostile would probably do alot to ward off anyone thats a chickendirt.with my borderlab yapping I would be aware of any intrusions long before they reached my front door.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

a) I have come to the conclusion that if I'm caught at my home in Northern, CA then the best I can hope for is to take down a few of the mauraders with me so they won't bug you guys. How many I can get I have no idea, but being in a typical urban subdivision my guess is quite a few - because there likely will be quite a few.

b) On the other hand if I make it to my BOL (which I fully intend) my process of defense begins at about 820 yards. An intruder at that point has to violate my property in order to progress and I don't mean just "wonder" on either. They have to make the decision to break open a gate and go forth. At which point I feel like, if we are living in a SHTF world, the first shots are in order. If they make it inside 300 yards I'm likely to bug out again. I have exit strategies to a secondary BOL on the expansive property. I studied (for fun as a kid) the Alamo in great detail. Its quite remarkable they lasted as long as they did, but I often wonder why they didn't take the advise of the Tennesseans and cut the Mexican army up on the way there with hit and run tactics.


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## TMCertified (May 8, 2013)

I updated my profile a bit montana rancher. Depending on where you are at will certainly make a big difference. We bought and are building in an area that is our "bug out location" So we won't need to bug out we are already living on that land. (or in the process of it) So with what I mentioned about the fence, the security, the signs, I don't think I'm going to have any issues because there are going to be plenty and plenty of easier targets before they would get to me and if some how they do stumble upon me, I don't think anyone would risk it when there are endless possibilities within a 5 to 10 mile range. However, I know someone else mentioned. Get a dog, post up signs, beware, shoot first ask questions second, whatever signs and no climb fences and dogs. Even if you live on top of each other in a sub division. People will skip your house and go for an easier target. This makes sense whether someone is trying to survive or if someone is trying to possibly rob your house. The more you make your place look "Dangerous" the less likely someone will try. Or they would have to be crazy crazy desperate. Even then it just wouldn't make sense for my location because there are way too many other opportunities. I also think that having only 5 acres works to my advantage verses someone who has 40 acres or 100 acres. You have a lot harder time defending that properly.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

I think it would be very difficult to protect your property with out some community support. The best thing is to get out of your home and put your self in the position of the aggressor trying to take it over. Think out of the box is there cover that a group could use to bombard the house with fire bombs. A few people with something as simple as this could lob fire bombs over one house (used for cover) and hit another.






Fire bombing and sniping would be the hardest thing to guard against. They catch your roof on fire and you won't be able to stay inside long.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

By the time the ravenous hordes cleaned out the more populated areas they would not have any gasoline to get here.
And they darn sure won't make it this far on foot.
Now if you're in a town, or God forbid, a city, good luck.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Unless they send in a full company from the 3 Infantry division a life time. We been getting ready for a long time and well trained.
And I am betting we could hold them off for some time.
Other wise homie and his crew aint got a chance


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I think that I am armed enough and trained enough to make them switch to plan B and find an easier target.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

TA312's go in soon with buried wire, and hidden connection points Communication will be greatly improved.
Security is something you never sop improving.
Offer them no view of items worth stealing by force, if that is not possible make it clear the price is not worth it ,show of force but never show your whole hand.
Let them think the line is in front while the flank destroys them.
The hordes in the city only get away with the crimes they do now because no one stands up to them, not even LE. When they get outside their comfort zone they will fail.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

So, your going to scatter these field phones around your property? Or just to the out buildings?
I just plan on laying in "zone" alarms that will tell me where people are and the direction they are going. It is easy to do and real inexpensive (per zone). How many zones and how far out they go is another question.
When law and order break down I can install some defensive products that will stop anyone from getting in or out in a hurry.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

PaulS said:


> So, your going to scatter these field phones around your property? Or just to the out buildings?
> I just plan on laying in "zone" alarms that will tell me where people are and the direction they are going. It is easy to do and real inexpensive (per zone). How many zones and how far out they go is another question.
> When law and order break down I can install some defensive products that will stop anyone from getting in or out in a hurry.


 Well planned LPOP have been in place for some time concealed and covered routes in place. We have worked out visual signals both day and night this is just one more improvement.
So called bobbie traps or early warning devices are in the plan and second nature to us the farther out ones are not lethal both visual and audible ones will be in use.
The 312's can be hooked up to hidden wire and used as needed. The wire will be in place but the 312's are carried not left in place. We have been buying them up for some time. They last almost for ever and require no power other than your voice.
When most of your STHF family have served 1 or more tours in the infantry it makes defense a be easier.
Our plan is little to no contact outside the group, we will deal with any threat long before it gets near living space


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## SAR-1L (Mar 13, 2013)

I have multiple points and parts to my strategy...

1. First of all I don't want my stash to be where I am, or to be where my stash is. 

2. I will use traps and defenses that do not require my presence. What better than a defense that does not put you directly in harms way.

3. Traps which mangle the intruder and use him as bait for the others to fall into additional traps.

4. Multiple Rigged and trapped stashes.

5. Should they make it through, and back, I will stalk them to their camp and kill them in their sleep or ambush them, not only taking my supply back, and adding to it with whatever possessions I can scavenge from them.

6. If the group is to well armed or is more than just a couple people then I will set up traps on the main exit trails from their temporary camp to cause as much casualty as possible. 

7. But before all this I will make sure some supplies are contaminated. Some medications will be put into wrong bottles, and some food items will have poisons laced into the food. Things which are not lethal but will cause hindering side effects. Such as Diarria or convultion... 

This way I can catch you when you are bent over hurling, or when you are expelling your fluids from other places, plus if you are having to crap or convulse regularly I can track you easier, your movement will be slower, and you will be a burden to your party if you are in a group. 

I hope I never have to result these measures, this however doesn't mean I won't. Hopefully this post helps provide a useful strategy to some of the forum members here that you may have not thought of. Not all threat needs to be met with equal or greater force, sometimes it just needs to be redirected.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Montana Rancher said:


> I don't get the feeling either way if you feel you can repel such an attack, your post is unclear but as is usual I have an opinion
> 
> 4 well trained attackers into my home will suffer 50% casualties if I am alone. Yes I know that mean I die but I accept that premise.
> 
> ...


As a wise person said: When you think it's time to bury your guns, it's really time to dig them up


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## longrider (Mar 25, 2013)

Wow, SAR-1L, I didn't think of that. A little diarrhea or vomiting never hurt anyone - unless it does... Gives me food for thought. Thanks. I wouldn't want a dog that barks. I want a dog that sneaks up and attacks silently. Or shows up silent and then announces their pressence. I wouldn't want signs, either. It might be a challenge to some egotistical butt-head. I want to lay low, be invisible and hope the Golden Horde finds easier pickens.
I don't have a group, to help defend. And as stated on another thread, my farmer friend doesn't believe in prepping. I like the idea of perimeter alarms. I have some ideas that look innocous, but could you guys explain what you're doing, without giving yourselves away? I'm thinking things that are seen on most farms, set as alarms. Especially in the grove, which borders 1/2 the "home site". Plus, with corn growning right up to the home site, jeez... Anyone know a website to help plan diffensive strategies? :-(


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## SAR-1L (Mar 13, 2013)

longrider said:


> Wow, SAR-1L, I didn't think of that. A little diarrhea or vomiting never hurt anyone - unless it does... Gives me food for thought. Thanks. I wouldn't want a dog that barks. I want a dog that sneaks up and attacks silently. Or shows up silent and then announces their pressence. I wouldn't want signs, either. It might be a challenge to some egotistical butt-head. I want to lay low, be invisible and hope the Golden Horde finds easier pickens.
> I don't have a group, to help defend. And as stated on another thread, my farmer friend doesn't believe in prepping. I like the idea of perimeter alarms. I have some ideas that look innocous, but could you guys explain what you're doing, without giving yourselves away? I'm thinking things that are seen on most farms, set as alarms. Especially in the grove, which borders 1/2 the "home site". Plus, with corn growning right up to the home site, jeez... Anyone know a website to help plan diffensive strategies? :-(


Glad to hear...

Good alarms are things which make noise when moved or disturbed. Loose floorboards, hanging cans, broken glass, marbles, egg shells, standing water if you are in a moist climate and can spare some stagnant stuff, make them cross across a tin surface, dried leaves, dry brush, I believe in keeping it super simple, as in all engineering the more moving parts the greater chance of failure, plus also the more time expended to produce your defenses. I hope this at least starts to help answer your question.

The best question when preparing a defense is, how would I intrude? If you have any special training which may alter your views from the common population then ask a friend you trust to give you more "end user" perspective, we do this in engineering design often.


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Where we live now, we are actually in pretty good shape provided we are paying attention. Our home is a split entry with the bottom half of the lower level underground. We only really have two directions of approach and we have good wide windows covering them. Basically, the lower half of our house is a foxhole with carpeting and heat. I have paced off the directions of approach and determined that we have about a maximum of 200 yards of minimally obstructed area that we can shoot on. I have also identified landmarks at roughly 50 and 100 yards as well.

So, I am going with the notion that we are in good shape if the folks coming after us are not a group of trained military. If they are, no amount preparation on my part is going to change the outcome. Neither Mrs Inor or I have the skills to deal with defending against the Seals. But if they are gang bangers or looters I am confident that it will be "strong advantage Mr and Mrs Inor".


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

When we started all of this it became clear that to small a group could not either defend it's self or have the manpower to fill all the needs. We also knew that resources would be limited . The numbers we settled on were adjusted a bit over time but a lot of work went into coming up with what we could support and also put up a strong defense. 
Some would disagree but a persons skills in the defense of the group where second only to a persons character. Other skills were important and we had a list of desire skills, but those could be learned.
Character is who a person . A good solid back round in Infantry training is something that takes a long time to learn right and few are ever tested.
I have said it before and will stand by it, all the good intentions all the prepping in world is meaningless if you can not defend it someone is going to take it.
When you security is up to standard you can freely work on other needs.
We have no desire to go out after anyone or to take what others have,we are mostly about defense, But if it takes assault to defend we can get it done. 
As you approach the subject more and the possibility that S may HTF becomes evident you will need to address Security that is when this road we are on gets scary..
Pray it never comes vote to prevent


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## Blackcat (Nov 12, 2012)

Well... Theres over 14 kilometers of unpaved gravel road and only one way in or out from my place. Idk anything about home defence but were well armed and out of the way. We have a small pack of dogs that alert to the slightest thing. The home itself isn't VERY secure its a standard country mobil home. Paper thin walls and doors that wouldn't keep out a stiff wind. Really I couldn't see anyone coming all this way in any shtf situation BUT... The nearest neighbours worry me a small bit however. They are an odd sort in a "texas chainsaw" sort of way. They have lived out here alone for generations in tents. They work the land and don't want anything to do with people. They aren't quite what id call preppers but they are very self sufficient and well armed as well. My family has discussed the situation regarding the neighbours. We figure they could go either way depending on if they want to band with us or take what we have. So who knows.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

In your situation I would begin by building a bunker of some kind under your mobile home. Try to keep the neighbors from knowing about it because it could be a place that that you can get to secretly to stay alive. Strt with a space that is large enough for a root cellar and built it out from there to accomodate the members of your group. Most of your stores should be in the bunker and it should have a secure door, be well ventilated. If your "neighbors" turn on you it will be secure enough that even if they burnt the trailer to the ground you would be safe in the bunker. 
NOTE:
The bunker should be covered by at least four feet of earth and have at least seven foot ceilings - that means digging down at least twelve feet to allow for the floor and ceiling construction. The ceiling has to support 400lbs per square foot. At that depth you will see little change in temperature throughout the year and it will remain about 50 - 55F. With the proper insulation it will take very little to heat it.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I'm planning a defense in depth.

First, I will use signs: Minefield!, or Contaminated Area!, or Trespassers Will Be Shot!, or whatever along with "Food, Water, Shelter 3 miles" to encourage people to keep moving.

Those ignoring the signs will have shown themselves to be a serious threat, and could be engaged at fairly long range (200 M +) in order to thin their ranks or break their will. This should also slow them down.

If confronted by overwhelming numbers, it's out the back door to an alternate position. If only 2 or 3 are left, stay and fight.

My critical supplies will be mostly hidden in walls, floors, false compartments in closets, and in the ceiling. I will have several buried caches, each with a few days food, seeds, a little ammo, and whatever else I need to make a new start. The main shelter won't have much to loot, or at least look like there's not much. The basic plan is to leave behind only enough they they can easily carry it away, but not so much that they want to stay there. In this case, I would be lurking, sniping, and generally making it seem like a good idea to move on. Shoot n scoot, thin them out, make it more expensive to stay than to flee.

No plan survives contact with a determined enemy, so it's important to not get locked into any one plan. It's probably better to think in general "philosophies" of defense, each tailored to a general situation. Remain fluid, don't give up mobility, and have a backup for all your critical items.


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## StarPD45 (Nov 13, 2012)

Regarding silent dogs, I remember reading a long time ago that the security dogs at the SAC bases had their vocal cords cut to prevent barking. i.e. silent killers.


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