# Humane Circumstances after SHTF ?



## Grinch (Jan 3, 2016)

Lets face it everyone there's going to be those marauding bands out there after something goes down, there will simply be those who are not prepared, hunger will drive a man mad and cause him not to think straight. Chances are good most of us on here won't go crazy ( immediately ) and go after others. From what I have understood after researching general disasters and stuff like that looters start generally between 24 hours and one week. Now if this is a total apocalypse I would estimate that the first three months are going to separate the two groups and show who can survive. Lets face it there's going to be a lot more of non-preppers than preppers, there's going to be a lot of people out there looking for food, water, shelter whatever and if you have it you're going to defend it especially if you have a family and stuff like that. What I asking here today is would it be considered cruel to lay out bear traps, punji sticks and things of that nature as a deterrent ? I know my grandfather has six or seven old two man bear traps in his garage, I mean not to mention I have decent sized traps that I certainly wouldn't want to step in. One of his traps he calls " the widow-maker " has a 16 inch jaw spread with teeth on it, by no means would it kill an intruder immediately but it would certainly break his leg. Even the smaller ones would easily break ankles and mangle feet, would any of you resort to things like this to protect your loved ones ? Is this cruel ? 
I am very well aware that is it much more humane to break a man's ankle than have him kill your family, and under an apocalyptic situation humanity gets somewhat thrown out the window but would any of you do this ?


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

Good question. One we have discussed here several times. 
In short, my answer is; If you have posted "Fair Warning", then I think you remove your own responsibility for what others may do. 
I don't want to kill or hurt anyone. But, everyone is responsible for themselves, and if they haven't prepared to take care of their families, 
YOU are not responsible for them or their decisions. 

On the other hand, I will not stand by and let a child go hungry if I can help it.


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## txmarine6531 (Nov 18, 2015)

In the words of Animal Mother, "Better you than me".


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

Any warning you are coming under attack is good warning indeed. A guy screaming cuz he got his leg all FUBAR is pretty good warning and one of potentially more out of the race. I would loath if a young person got stuck on one though - or an innocent who was just looking around and not out to hurt people.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

If SHTF ever gets that bad we will each be forced to decide what is the right thing to do in many cases. If we lose our humanity, if what is morally right no longer madders then we have already lost anyway. Some we encounter will need to be dealt with others will benefit from what charity we can supply. It will not be an easy call. Last time I checked no one said life would always be easy. I have faith God will guide us. I can not speak for what others will rely on .


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

Mmmmmm ... bear traps.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

It is all about priorities. God, family, friends, others. In SHTF we all have limited resources. How you choose to disperse them is up to you. Charity is your decision. Mobs and raiders out to take what they can get are not in that equation and I need to protect those that depend on me from that. Not being obvious is first. Second, feinting epidemic to keep others away would be a another layer. Finally traps and such to help protect the perimeter and give early warning are reasonable precautions. Mistakes happen and you will have to live with them. Anyone who gets into your perimeter has to be stopped by any means necessary. How many chances do you take with your family?


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

Camel923 said:


> It is all about priorities. God, family, friends, others. In SHTF we all have limited resources. How you choose to disperse them is up to you. Charity is your decision. Mobs and raiders out to take what they can get are not in that equation and I need to protect those that depend on me from that. Not being obvious is first. Second, feinting epidemic to keep others away would be a another layer. Finally traps and such to help protect the perimeter and give early warning are reasonable precautions. Mistakes happen and you will have to live with them. Anyone who gets into your perimeter has to be stopped by any means necessary. How many chances do you take with your family?


It's tough to forecast what you do, even if you think you know. The circumstances could be different than what is expected I imagine.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

The people that are sneaking around looking to steal or get the jump on you will be the ones caught in traps. The honorable people will walk up the driveway or knock on the door and politely ask for help face to face. Pretty easy in my mind to decide who gets what they deserve.

My question is how do you feel sorry for the idiot trying to sneak up and stab you in the back??


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## Targetshooter (Dec 4, 2015)

Chipper said:


> The people that are sneaking around looking to steal or get the jump on you will be the ones caught in traps. The honorable people will walk up the driveway or knock on the door and politely ask for help face to face. Pretty easy in my mind to decide who gets what they deserve.
> 
> My question is how do you feel sorry for the idiot trying to sneak up and stab you in the back??


I agree with you , I wouldn't feel sorry for the idiot " he's the idiot "


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

so many things to think about with this..

overall i think i want warning...I would hate to see a 10 year old little girl in a bear trap after she escaped from a biker gang...

I want the ability to decide..a bear trap, pits, and other type of traps have no intelligence to decide


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Chipper said:


> The people that are sneaking around looking to steal or get the jump on you will be the ones caught in traps. The honorable people will walk up the driveway or knock on the door and politely ask for help face to face. Pretty easy in my mind to decide who gets what they deserve.
> 
> My question is how do you feel sorry for the idiot trying to sneak up and stab you in the back??


Yes and they will be wearing a black hat..bad guys always have a black hat

do you remember the young girl that survived the plane crash and walked miles through the snowy woods to somebodies house.... imagine if - just as she was almost there..she steps in a bear trap and it broke her leg


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

In more urban areas defensive traps may be the way to go but in rural areas with coyotes, hogs, deer, and the distant neighbors dogs wandering through traps may hurt more than they help.

Long distance motion detectors may be a better way to go.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

trapping some POS in a bear trap isn't the hard part - it's finding his blind side to put the finishing bullet in his brain .... you don't booby trap the honest man's entry to a property - you lay your traps in the bushwacker alleys ....


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## Plumbum (Feb 1, 2016)

I would not lay traps without warning signs. It will be a tactical disadvantage to let ppl know the property is booby trapped but atleast I wont kill anyone who doesnt deserv it. I know these kinds of morals are a luxury I might not be able to afford if SHTF but that how I see it right now. Perhas I would use a secondary perimter of alarm traps to let me know they are comming if they manage to disarm the traps?


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^^ I would have posting stating traps are in place also. That would clear my conscious ....... maybe.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Theoretical, put up all kinds of warning signs on you perimeter, warning of pitfalls and bear traps and whatever.
String barbed wire at the distance you consider a kill zone after crossing.
This would the point of setting up final interlocking defensive fires.
If they penetrate that defense and cross the wire, you know what to do.
IMO they would have had sufficient warning whether or not those barriers were in place.
Two man gun Gun pits with comm trenches would be good along the flank of the wire.
The barbed wire being breached would be the final determining factor.
If and when the SHTF I will string apron wire to create a choke point for defensive fire in a grazing manner.
If there is a firefight and you survive, make sure the opfor does not, none.
Overwhelming interlocking fire is a must if dealing with opfor grouping. 
an m79 or m203 wold be good to have for engagement with DP rounds.
L ambushes are good to go for those continuing to attempt to breach the wire.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Grinch said:


> What I asking here today is would it be considered cruel to lay out bear traps, punji sticks and things of that nature as a deterrent ?


Yes to the punji sticks. As for the bear trap it depends on what trap specifically. A "killing trap' for bear such as deadfall, yup if anyone survived from it, however most modern bear traps are relatively humane. Not perfect but in fact a non-lethal deterrent.



> I know my grandfather has six or seven old two man bear traps in his garage, I mean not to mention I have decent sized traps that I certainly wouldn't want to step in. One of his traps he calls " the widow-maker " has a 16 inch jaw spread with teeth on it, by no means would it kill an intruder immediately but it would certainly break his leg.


The older traps have been outlawed, they are no longer used in trapping.



> Even the smaller ones would easily break ankles and mangle feet, would any of you resort to things like this to protect your loved ones ? Is this cruel ?


In a context where people are going around and killing people, and there is no justice system, no government etc.. and faced with a lethal threat I would use lethal force if I was unable to protect myself and others any other way. However, planning these things as a prep, like going out and buying illegal traps is just not something I would do, as someone who aims to trap legally, having these illegal traps would be a massive liability. You know if people are trying to kill you, you do what you need to do. If there arn't cops around to do that you need to do it yourself, it is that simple.

While they hurt, they arn't as bad as being shot.

This is the type of trap that is legalnow





I am pretty sure the ones with spikes below is NOT legal to possess for trapping anymore.








> Humane trapping
> Licensed trappers use humane techniques to capture furbearing animals. These include: beaver, muskrat, fisher, marten, weasel, raccoon, skunk, opossum, red squirrel, otter, mink, lynx, bobcat, wolf and coyote.
> 
> The province works with trappers to protect these wildlife populations and habitat by:
> ...


Here is how trapping is currently done more or less. Trapping methods are more or less set by international convention with testing done nationally to insure compliance.






I would suspect feral animals could be an issue and limited trapping might be advisable.

Snares are normally relatively humane

http://www.wildlifecontrolsupplies.com/animal/WCSABS.html

Trapping these days is all about causing as little stress to the animal as possible.

Just bear in mind in normal times it is illegal to set traps for use against humans. So it would simply be illegal/criminal to do this short of a collapse of government and the rule of law. That said, with modern trapping equipment it is relatively humane to use modern traps against humans. The issue however is that a trained human can get out of these traps and injury is minimal, they are designed to limit harm to humans and give them a way of getting out of the trap. Since you cannot assess the threat, self defence defences become problematic unless there was a known threat and using nonlethal force was an alternative to using lethal force.'

Scenario: Say for example it was a regular occurrence that people were coming onto peoples properties at night and killing them in their sleep for use as food, or to put them into work camps. I would personally see using traps to stop people from commission of those offences to be warranted if there was a high probability that your property would be targeted for extermination. The chances of that in most SHTF situations is damn low though, lottery low.

Personally I think people should be able to trap on their property, it is generally legal actually, you just can't target humans.


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## tirednurse (Oct 2, 2013)

Grinch said:


> Lets face it everyone there's going to be those marauding bands out there after something goes down, there will simply be those who are not prepared, hunger will drive a man mad and cause him not to think straight. Chances are good most of us on here won't go crazy ( immediately ) and go after others. From what I have understood after researching general disasters and stuff like that looters start generally between 24 hours and one week. Now if this is a total apocalypse I would estimate that the first three months are going to separate the two groups and show who can survive. Lets face it there's going to be a lot more of non-preppers than preppers, there's going to be a lot of people out there looking for food, water, shelter whatever and if you have it you're going to defend it especially if you have a family and stuff like that. What I asking here today is would it be considered cruel to lay out bear traps, punji sticks and things of that nature as a deterrent ? I know my grandfather has six or seven old two man bear traps in his garage, I mean not to mention I have decent sized traps that I certainly wouldn't want to step in. One of his traps he calls " the widow-maker " has a 16 inch jaw spread with teeth on it, by no means would it kill an intruder immediately but it would certainly break his leg. Even the smaller ones would easily break ankles and mangle feet, would any of you resort to things like this to protect your loved ones ? Is this cruel ?
> I am very well aware that is it much more humane to break a man's ankle than have him kill your family, and under an apocalyptic situation humanity gets somewhat thrown out the window but would any of you do this ?


How is this more humane? If you set a trap and a person step's in it, breaks ankle and probably gets a nasty wound also. More than likely in a SHTF situation this is a death sentence. That person will not be able to fend for himself, find food, water and shelter. I highly doubt there will be a doctor around the corner waiting to set the bones and cast it so the person would be totally disfigured and more than like never be able to correctly use this leg again. More than likely he will also end up with an infection he will have a hard time fighting due to unsanitary conditions and lack of proper wound care and antibiotics. 
You may as well shoot them since you have caused their death anyway.


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## rstanek (Nov 9, 2012)

I think that defending a perimeter is dictated by geography and demographics, depending on the degree the shtf scenario, personally I would like to think I've given myself 2 options, I have since relocated much of my resources because of recent discussions with other people, to get to my cache I would have a 3 day hike to get there, I would not take roads or trails, not intending to bring harm to anyone on the way I would be vulnerable to entering and crossing other people's perimeters, it would make it difficult to navigate these areas, though I understand everyone's intent.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

Every situation is different and I can't blame people for wanting to protect their property in that manner should circumstances warrant it. Myself, no I would not unless we're talking straight up siege//behind enemy lines type of situation. There are way too many variables, I wouldn't want to be responsible for the death//maiming of a families sole provider or worse yet a child because he/she got caught in a booby trap after getting turned around in the woods while deer hunting. I would favor a system of solar powered cameras//motion sensors along with dogs that bark and perhaps even a camera mounted on a drone/blimp that has the ability to be recharged through an inverter. Identify the target then move in with the appropriate amount of force to keep your family safe. Never know, that guy/gal that gets caught in your trap might be friendly and have a skill set you desperately need. Just my 2 cents take it or leave it.


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