# Scenario: Active Shooter



## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

It can be hard to make good decisions in high stress situations. I think there are benefits to mentally running through various scenarios and looking at your options and possible responses. Here's one of the tougher scenarios that I haven't been able to "solve." ...

You're driving past a school and gunfire erupts from within. You hear multiple shots in rapid succession, then a fairly steady string of additional shots. You are armed with a handgun and 1 or 2 extra mags and have a good trauma kit in the car.

You call 911 and report it. Now what?


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

I DON"T enter the school. The police will not know I'm the good guy and will likely immediately shoot anyone they see with a firearm. My wife and I've talked about this very scenario. She's a classroom teacher and she agrees with me knowing that I would have a very hard time not trying to make sure she's safe.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Here's a few options I have been thinking about...

1... Just clear out of the area. I don't want to waste the responder's time dealing with me. There's little I can do anyway, so just move on.

2... Park down the block, leave my gun in the car, and make my way back with my first aid supplies. The first cops on the scene will need information. I don't have much, but have this habit of counting rounds, so can probably give them some idea of the extent of the crisis. I could probably tell them if there is one gun or more involved. I could probably tell them what part of the building he is in. They may be overwhelmed and be able to use additional medical supplies (at least in the first few minutes)

3... Immediately park, draw my weapon, and charge into the school. This is probably a VERY bad idea. I'm not a cop, I'm not a superhero. What would I do if I saw someone in the hall with a gun? Is he the shooter? Is he a neighbor trying to help? What happens when SWAT storms in sees me with a gun? What will the actual shooter be doing while the police deal with me? This isn't a viable option.

Of these, option 2 seems the most reasonable. What other options exist?


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

I will not EVER go into a situation like that with a gun. EVER. 

I would park my car nearby, LEAVE MY GUN IN THE CAR, and take my med-kit and offer my services for first aid to the police if they need it.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I will only use deadly force to protect myself or my loved ones.
A stranger? No way.

My duty is to my family. Suppose I get wounded in the exchange. Will my employer based health care cover the expense? Most likely not. Suppose I am crippled and can no longer work, becoming a burden on my family? Suppose I am killed, what would become of my family?
Why should I come to the defense of someone who means nothing to me at the possible expense of those who mean everything to me?


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I will only use deadly force to protect myself or my loved ones.
> A stranger? No way.
> 
> My duty is to my family. Suppose I get wounded in the exchange. Will my employer based health care cover the expense? Most likely not. Suppose I am crippled and can no longer work, becoming a burden on my family? Suppose I am killed, what would become of my family?
> Why should I come to the defense of someone who means nothing to me at the possible expense of those who mean everything to me?


My beliefs as well. I carry to protect my family and myself. Period.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

I wouldn't enter the school. I'm not a superhero so I'm not going to act like one. But let me add, we had an active shooter lock down at my work a few months ago and people flipped the F' out. There was mass chaos and people making dumb decisions. It was very eye opening to watch. I learned a great deal that day.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Assuming it's a school I have no association with, I would be the best witness I could be, and have my trauma kit close by.
If it was a school my wife works in, or my child attends, I am finding the MF'n coward and emptying lead into him until he stops twitching.
Until these ass clowns realize they are not safe from retaliation and can't live out their fantasy, they will continue to pull this shit.
Shoot back!


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

I would never be by a school as they are gun free zones. I can get in trouble for even being nearby with a gun.. I'm not gun free so I stay away like they want me to. If there is a problem and need a gun it won't be mine. The school already made that decision very clear to me. Good luck, your on your own.

Hopefully the classroom is stocked with canned goods so the kids can throw canned food at the shooter.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I would get to a safe distance and report out to the first responders. I'd leave and call the station with my personal info and go report out at their request anything I know. My inclination is to help always. But I'm no good to my family dead or worse.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

The scenario can't happen in NJ. I'd keep driving if I imagined it was happening.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

A scumbag shooter like this ? He isn't going to stop shooting.

JMO, I believe most LEO are now being trained to be more proactive in scenarios like this.

If my son was in there, it would be impossible to keep me from taking a proactive approach.

Otherwise, I'm not trained enough or brave enough.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Have you ever checked out a you tube series called first defender? Check them out, good thought provoking stuff.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

In your scenario I would drive as close as I could to the school and stay with my vehicle; if a shot presents itself take it if not protect those who might try to come at and whisk them past your location to safety.



Prepadoodle said:


> It can be hard to make good decisions in high stress situations. I think there are benefits to mentally running through various scenarios and looking at your options and possible responses. Here's one of the tougher scenarios that I haven't been able to "solve." ...
> 
> You're driving past a school and gunfire erupts from within. You hear multiple shots in rapid succession, then a fairly steady string of additional shots. You are armed with a handgun and 1 or 2 extra mags and have a good trauma kit in the car.
> 
> You call 911 and report it. Now what?


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

We are trained to make an immediate response VS. waiting for a tactical team. This is how it has been since Columbine. We get with the other first Officers on the seen, stack up and go in. If I were an armed citizen I would have to go in as well. Tough question.


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## Suntzu (Sep 22, 2014)

Scenario 1: Any random school, keep at a distance, call 911.

Scenario 2: My child's school, I'd most certainly go to my child's classroom.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

The problem with "going in" is that all you know is that you hear gunshots. You don't know if there are police in there already, and they sure as heck don't know YOU are not one of the shooters if they see you standing around with a gun. 

This is a law enforcement issue, you don't know who the shooters are, how many they are, where they are, how many (if any) hostages they have, if there are bombs set up in the building (Columbine was actually a failed bombing, not a mass shooting attempt), you would just be a guy who isn't supposed to be in the school at all, running around inside with a gun.

That's a really good way to get yourself dead or sent away for years. Probably just dead.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

From what I understand the cops that responded in Columbine did not go in, they waited for SWAT. they were trained that way. In my dept., we are not allowed to go in in a hostage/baricade situations. we have to call for SWAT. But things have changed after Columbine, we are now trained to go in and engage the active shooter.

As for civilians going in a situation like a school active shooter to help out, I completely understand. Good people cant and wont just sit aside to watch bad things happen. no, its not being a super hero its just human nature I guess. For the one who opted to step aside and let the LEO go in, it does not mean they are cowards, they are also doing the right thing.

A lot of things can go wrong with going in, you can get hurt, you can get sued if things go wrong and depending on the location or state where the tragedy occurs, you can be charged for entering a school with a firearm. I'm not sure if that was a state or federal law. Some years back some stupid democrat came up with that law to prevent school shootings.

to go in or not is a personal decision one has to make.


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

Friggin DUCK!!!!!!!!!!! Then run!!
Then call the police.
It would break my heart not to be able to do something tho.
Little Kids don't have a chance by themselves.

I may be stupid enough to try to find the shooter and create a distraction...without a weapon.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Go in hands down, society fails if we dont stand up for ourselves. To me that means sticking up for each other, helping the elderly out (because I will be old too) giving a handout,(when its appropriate) free advice (when its appropriate) and a hundred other things. Bad things happen because good people let it.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Sneak in
Get them - alive
Make them tell on camera who really put them up to it
Alert insurance companies for claim fraud 
Film rest of fumbling idiocy and over baked dramatics for posterity....

(For "posterity" too - be sure and release officials in protestor or bad guy drag ("scoot!") All disaster actors must become live casualties tho - somehow that seems important...


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## TxBorderCop (Nov 19, 2012)

I put my body armor in the car whenever I go anywhere. Enough Anti-Police and Anti-Government people these days to make anyone paranoid.

Throw on my vest (which says Police on it along with a badge patch), double check that I have two spare mags, plus the one in the handgun. Two M4 mags as well as the one in the M4, stack up with the first responders and hit the door.

I can tell you I don't pretend to be any type of hero. I have a son, and so do other people and they have daughters. I took an oath to protect the innocent, and kids are generally as innocent as they come. I want those kids to go home safe to their parents and siblings. Period.

Active shooter scenarios are more and more likely. Sig Arms Academy has an excellent course on this, along with a scenario much like what happened in Chechnya. Terrorists take over a school, do you wait for SWAT (or as in the case of the Russians the SPETZNAZ) and let those kids get murdered, or do you take what you have, and go in? Either way, it is a Kobayashi Maru scenario. And I am not James T. Kirk - though would you get penalized for cheating?:armata_PDT_23:


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Not trying to hijack the thread but I have an honest question. in the scenario of school active shooter, an armed civilian with CCW permit gets involved. His/her reason is because his/her "conscience" could not bear to think that a child is possibly being murdered in the school at the time of the incident. would that reason be comparable to LEO reasons when they use deadly force. 

personally I think it is. for the LEO's the perceived threat and the belief that if he/she did not fire his/her weapon, his/her life could be taken by the perpetrator. I think it would be the same as a passerby acting and employing deadly force to save lives because his/her "consience" dictated it. thoughts anyone?


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

In any normal circumstance as we have lived in this country all along you are correct. There are several legal terms you could attach to such a situation including assumption of Loco parentis in the case of a minor.
But....things have not been normal or consistent and not only does region play more of role than ever, the courts and people being abjectly used for political and financial purposes means it's pot luck the judge, police and press you would get. From hero to dead terrorist.
I would never wait for Leo ever. That is too unpredictable. If that prize isn't mine when they get close, it's all theirs and I want nothing to do ever with such a situation.


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## TxBorderCop (Nov 19, 2012)

oddapple said:


> In any normal circumstance as we have lived in this country all along you are correct. There are several legal terms you could attach to such a situation including assumption of Loco parentis in the case of a minor.
> But....things have not been normal or consistent and not only does region play more of role than ever, the courts and people being abjectly used for political and financial purposes means it's pot luck the judge, police and press you would get. From hero to dead terrorist.


oddapple is correct in his summation - in the past, this would be a non-issue. People helping LEO's were common place, actually law abiding citizens with a conscience were the norm. And, things like this were never even considered. The world is a much different and much more evil place.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

The responses here are 1) from cops, for whom the entire scenario does not apply, or 2) from folks in different states with different laws. I think it is important to note that about 1/3 of the population lives in may issue states and therefore will not have a CCW. (While there are relatively few may issue states they are the larger states so they cover a disproportionate amount of the population.) Furthermore, there is the issue of duty to retreat vs. stand your ground as well as whether you have entered a "gun free zone" armed.

So to realistically consider this scenario you have to recognize that any entry while armed is a violation of law. The law doesn't say you can't bring a gun into a school unless you think it is an active shooter scenario. It says you can't bring a gun into a school. For the non-LEOs, it is necessary to recognize that you will be prosecuted for laws that you break in this situation, assuming you are lucky enough not to be mistaken for the shooter.

This is a situation where the right thing to do will not be legal.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Diver said:


> The responses here are 1) from cops, for whom the entire scenario does not apply, or 2) from folks in different states with different laws. I think it is important to note that about 1/3 of the population lives in may issue states and therefore will not have a CCW. (While there are relatively few may issue states they are the larger states so they cover a disproportionate amount of the population.) Furthermore, there is the issue of duty to retreat vs. stand your ground as well as whether you have entered a "gun free zone" armed.
> 
> So to realistically consider this scenario you have to recognize that any entry while armed is a violation of law. The law doesn't say you can't bring a gun into a school unless you think it is an active shooter scenario. It says you can't bring a gun into a school. For the non-LEOs, it is necessary to recognize that you will be prosecuted for laws that you break in this situation, assuming you are lucky enough not to be mistaken for the shooter.
> 
> This is a situation where the right thing to do will not be legal.


yes this is exactly what I'm trying to say. even with permit to carry, it is still illegal to carry in a school. now when there is an active shooter and a person goes in the school to stop the shooter, can he use the reason for breaking the stupid law by saying that his conscience dictated that he take action and attempt to save lives since he was armed and capable of doing so.

I guess that will be up to the jury. hopefully common sense will prevail.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

On hopes common sense would prevail, yet in this day and age that's not the way I'd bet it.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

The same stupid principal that wants to have CANS of FOOD to protect kids decides to shoot off a few starter blanks.... you hear it and enter the school..get pelted by 23 cans of green beans.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Call 911 only if I am absolutely certain its gunfire. Am I sure its not something else? Other than that, clear the area. The police have no idea who I am or why I am there. It only adds confusion and makes things more likely that I will be shot or else others are being slaughtered during the time the police have to waste on me.

The moral component of doing nothing bothers me. However, society has determined it is not my place to do this and if I do it is at my own peril. The only way I risk it is if its an immediate family member in there.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

My first instinct would be to go in and try to stop the shooter.

When I thought this through, however, I realized it would be difficult to positively identify the shooter unless I saw him (or her) in the act of actually shooting someone. The guy walking down the hall with a gun could be an off duty cop or another concerned citizen, or an armed teacher. The police would probably be close behind me, and even if they didn't just shoot me outright, it would take them time to deal with me, and time is valuable in this situation.

With me inside, the police would have less intel. As I said, I don't have a lot of information for them here, but some is better than none. I would certainly volunteer to go in with them, but would expect this offer to be refused. The fact that it would be illegal for me to enter the school armed wouldn't enter into my decision.

So, after thinking about it, I think the best option would be to stay outside and offer what help I could; medical supplies, information, directing traffic, or whatever.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

One other point...

What if it turned out to be an active shooter drill? For all you know, there might be a command post set up BEHIND the school or somewhere else out of sight, and the whole thing is a training exercise. That guy walking down the hall with an AK might be an actor. Sure, you would expect his weapon to be equipped with a blank firing adapter, but he could be be using Simunition ot some other training-type ammo.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Send in "The Beaz"


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## Big Country1 (Feb 10, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> Assuming it's a school I have no association with, I would be the best witness I could be, and have my trauma kit close by.
> If it was a school my wife works in, or my child attends, I am finding the MF'n coward and emptying lead into him until he stops twitching.
> Until these ass clowns realize they are not safe from retaliation and can't live out their fantasy, they will continue to pull this shit.
> Shoot back!


^^^ Ditto ^^^
Well said Kauboy..


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

GasholeWillie said:


> Have you ever checked out a you tube series called first defender? Check them out, good thought provoking stuff.


I just watched an episode of First Person Defender. Thanks for posting about it. I think I have new viewing for my morning cardio.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> One other point...
> 
> What if it turned out to be an active shooter drill? For all you know, there might be a command post set up BEHIND the school or somewhere else out of sight, and the whole thing is a training exercise. That guy walking down the hall with an AK might be an actor. Sure, you would expect his weapon to be equipped with a blank firing adapter, but he could be be using Simunition ot some other training-type ammo.


I'm not letting this idea cause me any hesitation. I am basing my decision on my son being there. If my son is there, I'm treating everything as real.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Prepadoodle said:


> My first instinct would be to go in and try to stop the shooter.
> 
> When I thought this through, however, I realized it would be difficult to positively identify the shooter unless I saw him (or her) in the act of actually shooting someone. The guy walking down the hall with a gun could be an off duty cop or another concerned citizen, or an armed teacher. The police would probably be close behind me, and even if they didn't just shoot me outright, it would take them time to deal with me, and time is valuable in this situation.
> 
> ...


I wish I had the link ready for you because I don't grudge anyone that wants to doubt me. I remember seeing some sort of hard facts posters where among other stats, it showed that armed citizens have shoot more mass shooters than police officers, AND their 'error' rate( innocents shot) was much lower than police officers.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> yes this is exactly what I'm trying to say. even with permit to carry, it is still illegal to carry in a school. now when there is an active shooter and a person goes in the school to stop the shooter, can he use the reason for breaking the stupid law by saying that his conscience dictated that he take action and attempt to save lives since he was armed and capable of doing so.
> 
> I guess that will be up to the jury. hopefully common sense will prevail.


If I go to jail for saving my son's life, then so be it.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Salt-N-Pepper said:


> The problem with "going in" is that all you know is that you hear gunshots. You don't know if there are police in there already, and they sure as heck don't know YOU are not one of the shooters if they see you standing around with a gun.
> 
> This is a law enforcement issue, you don't know who the shooters are, how many they are, where they are, how many (if any) hostages they have, if there are bombs set up in the building (Columbine was actually a failed bombing, not a mass shooting attempt), you would just be a guy who isn't supposed to be in the school at all, running around inside with a gun.
> 
> That's a really good way to get yourself dead or sent away for years. Probably just dead.


If my son is in there, it is NOT just a law enforcement issue. It is a self defense issue for my son, and I will do what I can to defend him. I will take chances that I am not prepared for.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

From a 911 operators perspective the best thing you can do is give me as much information as you can because your my eyes and ears on scene which makes you responders eyes and ears. As tough as it is for me to say, you should not enter the building unless your responding law enforcement no matter what other profession or skill level you may have. You might be confused for the bad guys and worse yet, you might accidentally hurt people trying to take the bad guys down. Now if you see people escaping you should help them get to a safe area and again, let me know where they are and what injuries they may have. By giving me this information your going to save the lives of the people in the school and reduce risk for responders by giving them vital information before they arrive.

My own personal view, in today's world there should be a program in schools similar to the FFDO program in commercial airlines. For those who don't know what that is, the FFDO program is one that gives pilots federal firearms training at FLETC and they carry on airplanes. There can be requirements on qualifications, gun type, concealment protocol but long story short, you have teachers, employees, and administrators that are armed. Ideally I would love to see a school resource officer in every school but that's not economically feasible.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

tinkerhell, I can't argue with you... you bring up good points. I don't think there are any wrong answers here. Each of us has to decide for ourselves what the right course of action would be.

I guess the whole point of this thread is that it's better to think about possible courses of action before you face a situation.

Mental preps aren't nearly as good as actually training for an event, but they are better than being totally unprepared.

GasholeWillie, thanks for the heads up about First Person Defender. I watched one episode and subscribed.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

I'd also like to throw in its easy for me to play arm chair quarterback here, I don't have family that works in the school system although I do have several close friends. I also don't have children that I have to worry about in schools. The advice I give is based on my personal experience and the training I've received. It would be a very tough decision if I did.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Other that calling 911, I don't know what I'd do. Going into the school would probably cause more problems than it would solve. About the only way I could see me going in and start shooting was if I could see the shooter through the window, and clearly see he was shooting children and teachers and there was nobody stopping him. I believe I would then have to go in and try to intervene, I am not super brave, and make no claims, but I don't think I could stand by and see that going on without trying to stop it.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

toolmanky said:


> From a 911 operators perspective the best thing you can do is give me as much information as you can because your my eyes and ears on scene which makes you responders eyes and ears. As tough as it is for me to say, you should not enter the building unless your responding law enforcement no matter what other profession or skill level you may have. You might be confused for the bad guys and worse yet, you might accidentally hurt people trying to take the bad guys down. Now if you see people escaping you should help them get to a safe area and again, let me know where they are and what injuries they may have. By giving me this information your going to save the lives of the people in the school and reduce risk for responders by giving them vital information before they arrive.
> 
> My own personal view, in today's world there should be a program in schools similar to the FFDO program in commercial airlines. For those who don't know what that is, the FFDO program is one that gives pilots federal firearms training at FLETC and they carry on airplanes. There can be requirements on qualifications, gun type, concealment protocol but long story short, you have teachers, employees, and administrators that are armed. Ideally I would love to see a school resource officer in every school but that's not economically feasible.


very true, except the FLETC training for teachers. I am not against arming teachers but not all teachers are going to be up to it, let alone pass FLETC. as for hall monitors being armed, that is a good idea. but folks what bothers me with these school shootings is that, not one politician or anyone has ever suggested to fortify the schools. here is how it should be done...

have you ever noticed how a pawnshop in the inner city secure their place. the door is not unlocked. if you wish to gain entry, you are buzzed in by the people inside. why not use the same system in school. I understand that is what they do now, but only through the front main entrance. why not secure ALL classroom doors. install a heavy metal door, place a camera outside the door so that when someone is knocking, the teacher inside the class room could see who is trying to gain access. do this in each classroom and it should work.

this idea may cause money, but hey, how much is a child's life?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Seneca said:


> On hopes common sense would prevail, yet in this day and age that's not the way I'd bet it.


Common sense? Not a chance.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

tinkerhell said:


> If my son is in there, it is NOT just a law enforcement issue. It is a self defense issue for my son, and I will do what I can to defend him. I will take chances that I am not prepared for.


The original post said nothing about it being your son's school. My comments were about "a random" school I happened to be driving by.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Diver said:


> Common sense? Not a chance.


I know, common sense is not common...not everyone has it, but I was just hoping that somehow it prevails...


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

about a week after the sandy hook shooting, the local schoolboard started locking the front doors. All visitors must buzz in through an intercom. Sure, it is no fool proof but it might help.

Personally, I like the idea of a double set of doors, with murder holes on both sides.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

tinkerhell said:


> about a week after the sandy hook shooting, the local schoolboard started locking the front doors. All visitors must buzz in through an intercom. Sure, it is no fool proof but it might help.
> 
> Personally, I like the idea of a double set of doors, with murder holes on both sides.


no... front doors are not enough. believe it or not, all schools now have their front doors locked. in fact, someone buzzed adam lanza in during the sandy hook incident. what they need is to have each classroom's doors to be locked with a camera looking outside the door so that the teacher could see who is knocking and entry could only be gained by a buzzer. this way the active shooter could not enter the classrooms. the shooter can roam around the hallways, but not the individual classrooms.


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

Is it my school, do i have any business in the school, will i be recognized as someone trying to help. Will i stand there and listen to gunshots and panic from teenagers? Too many questions. I was in a building when they were working on the fire alarm system, and they set off the active shooting alarm. There wasn't much i could do, the security guards were running up and down the hall already. If i see an opportunity to act, yes, i don't think i would seek it out.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> no... front doors are not enough. believe it or not, all schools now have their front doors locked. in fact, someone buzzed adam lanza in during the sandy hook incident. what they need is to have each classroom's doors to be locked with a camera looking outside the door so that the teacher could see who is knocking and entry could only be gained by a buzzer. this way the active shooter could not enter the classrooms. the shooter can roam around the hallways, but not the individual classrooms.


agree. There is a whole bunch of ways to grief the shooters, if doors were defensively placed.


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