# Sir Robert Peel, Father of Modern Policing



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Those of you who pursued a degree in Criminal Justice already know this, most likely. This is what we are missing in so many of our police departments, including my town's police department.

The link and a recap of Peel's Principles:

How 200-year-old police principles could have helped Ferguson - MarketWatch

*Perhaps it's a return to these nine Peelian Principles. Here is the essence of each:

A civilian police that prevents crime and disorder is much preferable to repression of crime by military force and draconian legal punishment.

A police force's power to fulfill its functions is dependent on public approval and respect of the police's existence and actions.

Securing the public's cooperation with the work of the police force is critical for the police to be effective.

The more help the police can get from the public, the less the threat of physical force is needed to achieve police objectives.

Police must consistently seek public favor by demonstrating even-handed enforcement of the law, and through courtesy, good humor and a willingness to make personal sacrifices in service to the public, regardless of the wealth or social standing of the individuals involved.

Police should use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion and warnings are insufficient to obtain an individual's co-operation - and then only the absolute minimum degree of physical force needed.

Police should always maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police.

Police officers must refrain from seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary or the state. It's not the job of the police to judge guilt or punish the guilty.

Police officers must always recognize that the acid test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not high-visibility police actions in dealing with them.*


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Peel was a wise man and he was right on all counts.


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## cdell (Feb 27, 2014)

Yup all pretty much lacking from the police around here.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

cdell said:


> Yup all pretty much lacking from the police around here.


True. Now, here is a question we might consider; which came first. The chicken, or the egg?

Are we to assume the behavior of "Li'l Mike" was the result of police behavior, or is today's law enforcement's attitude the result of an overall degradation of society?


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Denton said:


> Are we to assume the behavior of "Li'l Mike" was the result of police behavior, or is today's law enforcement's attitude the result of an overall degradation of society?


Yes.

Lil Mikey was a bad seed, no doubt. And he would have gotten himself killed one way or another before his time was due just by his own actions. But the fact that he chose to pick a fight with a cop (and a very good and decent cop by all accounts) does speak volumes about not just what our society has become, but what our law enforcement has become in the eyes of the public.

This is not to be taken as a slam against LEOs, just an observation by a (mostly) law abiding citizen.


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

Pretty much reads like the 10 Commandments to me.
Just good rules to live by...and eminate.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Thank you for posting this. I've been reading more Ferguson threads than I care to and this brings a bit of balance.

I do not trust cops. I have yet to meet any that have the competence expressed in these rules so they do not have my trust. I also recognize that the typical young black male in an urban area has it much worse than I do.

Assuming Michael Brown was not a total fool, he had probably been in constant conflict with the police in Ferguson from the age of 12, one third of his life. That is likely the backstory on the night he got killed. He may have even been previously hassled by Wilson from the age of 12.

He was a thug by 18 because he was likely tagged with a criminal record from age 12. Brown at 18 is an unsympathetic character, but despite the comments here, did not deserve to die for a box of cigars or for walking in the street. From everything I have seen in the news Ferguson's police department has squandered any trust the community may have had long before Brown was killed. The protests and riots have little to do with Brown and are much more about hatred of the police who are the opposite of the principles expressed above.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The thing of it is, he didn't die due to robbing a store owner or because he was intentionally and defiantly obstructing traffic by walking down the middle of the street. I also don't think he was thinking about tyranny or heavy-handed oppression when he attacked the officer who was trying to get him out of the street.

Diver, I am distrustful of today's law enforcement, too. That doesn't excuse the behavior of Brown or any other member of society like him. Furthermore, to claim that the Black Man's plight is worse than others is to suggest I was destined for a middle income life due to my color. There are foods I still won't eat, today, because I got enough of them when I was a kid because they were cheap. The difference between me and those who are burning down Furgeson? My parents were strong, Christian leaders who took their responsibilities as parents to heart. My family saw rights and _responsibilities_ as going hand in hand. Life was not viewed as merely a here and now thing, but a gift from God to be used wisely in His honor. The family name was viewed something to protect, because the next generation not only makes its way in the world but also represents those who came before it.

All these things seem to be lost on today's society. Our culture is all about carnal pleasure in the here and now. All the things that made a strong, healthy culture possible is now seen as archaic, unnecessary, and even hindrances to what are now viewed as "rights."

I see such a degradation in society and a heavy-handed approach to law enforcement as going hand in hand.


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## TG (Jul 28, 2014)

This has nothing to do with cops, it's called bad parenting. Arrogance and disrespect in the face of authority is the result of bad parenting, acting like an ass, robbing a store is the result of bad parenting. There will always be assholes but there is always a reason for it, you are directly the product of nurture or lack of it. IMHO.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

I very much agree with you and not maybe, but all law officers need to have a class on this and start going by them. And since you put these out there are some other commandments that people need to start going by also.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Diver said:


> Thank you for posting this. I've been reading more Ferguson threads than I care to and this brings a bit of balance.
> 
> I do not trust cops. I have yet to meet any that have the competence expressed in these rules so they do not have my trust. I also recognize that the typical young black male in an urban area has it much worse than I do.
> 
> ...


I both agree and disagree with some of what you have written. I think the LEO issues are from well over a century ago. Look at the history of cops in NY in the early gang wars period and even before in the 1800's dealing with the influx of immigrants and the hatred of irish, etc. All the way into the south during the civil rights strife. But today most blacks are taught by their families and communities from birth that cops are racists and hate them...so they hate white cops right back...it is racism on their part and they openly proclaim that hatred but no one calls them on it publicly. No matter how well police behave these days they will always be hated because it fits their cause and desire to continue to be handed things and coddled by the govt. The black leaders know this and propagate it. Obama knows this and wants to expand it on. . Mjjjjnn.k mexicans so that the elite among them gain power...they do not care. About their own people.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

Our nation has subscribed to a philosophy of "more" education is necessary for professions than I agree with. I have students in our academy with bachelors degrees and they are often the worst students because they "know" it all. I have advocated that a city which employs a cop costing $150,000 a year (cost not pay) would be better off paying 20 people $7,500 each a year (cost not full pay) to take care of their block and back up the next block over.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Until blacks overcome their inner-city hood mentality -- there will NEVER be peace between those black thugs and the law. I don't care what the police do to try to reverse things, it just ain't going to happen. The onus is on the blacks, NOT the police. 

So ..... since inner-city blacks will never change their lives and will only get more racist (as if that were possible), we are all in this for the long haul. Arm yourselves.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

Old SF Guy said:


> But today most blacks are taught by their families and communities from birth that cops are racists and hate them...so they hate white cops right back...it is racism on their part and they openly proclaim that hatred but no one calls them on it publicly.


SF, I watched this very thing last night regarding the shooting in Cleveland. There was a civic leader, pastor, something like that, who was talking about the shooting, white police, black people and he said "I tell these kids all the time not to do this sort of thing because white police officers will kill you."

Because they will KILL YOU. BECAUSE they will kill you. Not BECAUSE what you are doing is wrong, or causes fear or apprehension by the public, not BECAUSE your parents should have taught you better, not BECAUSE you have a duty as a citizen of this community to follow the rules and be productive, but BECAUSE they will KILL YOU. Because you are black, and THEY are WHITE.

These people are TEACHING their children from the onset of life, to 1. Hate and fear white people, and 2. Hate and fear police officers. And for no other reason than 1. They are white and, 2. And they are Police Officers. They are not teaching their children to be respectful, to be law abiding, to be productive. They are teaching them "Don't get caught or you will die". They perpetuate fear, contempt and distrust. If I taught this "principle" to my children about "Black People", I would be considered a racist.

I am going to say this; If you are not a criminal, if you are not committing crime, if you are generally minding your own business, if you are not disturbing, harassing or unnecessarily bothering others, YOU WILL PROBABLY NEVER HAVE CAUSE TO EVER MEET A POLICE OFFICER over anything more than a traffic citation, let alone have your rights violated, your ass kicked or shot and killed by one.

Could it happen? Sure. There are bad cops out there, and now, thanks to social media and a camera in every phone, they are slowly and surely being rooted out (NY Deputy and the slapping incident for example). And there is a difference in being "emotionally uncomfortable" caused by a cop with the social skills of a badger, and "physically in danger" because of an over zealous cop with an inferiority complex that uses a badge and gun as compensation.

These communities are doing it to themselves. And THEY need to change their way of thinking. Not us. The rest of us (white, brown, yellow, red) get along fine for the most part and when we, or one of "our kind" f's up and gets what we have coming to us, we generally say "That's what you get for being a dumb ass." and we move along.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Ripon said:


> Our nation has subscribed to a philosophy of "more" education is necessary for professions than I agree with. I have students in our academy with bachelors degrees and they are often the worst students because they "know" it all. I have advocated that a city which employs a cop costing $150,000 a year (cost not pay) would be better off paying 20 people $7,500 each a year (cost not full pay) to take care of their block and back up the next block over.


Sounds like a good plan on the cop manpower idea. More money is supposedly now being spent on private security than on public law enforcement. Dont see the trend changing anytime soon.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

bigdogbuc said:


> I am going to say this; If you are not a criminal, if you are not committing crime, if you are generally minding your own business, if you are not disturbing, harassing or unnecessarily bothering others, YOU WILL PROBABLY NEVER HAVE CAUSE TO EVER MEET A POLICE OFFICER over anything more than a traffic citation, let alone have your rights violated, your ass kicked or shot and killed by one.


Sorry, but I am a law abiding citizen and I have had too many experiences with bad cops to agree and I am white, so I can't even blame race. Most of the traffic stops I have experienced have been totally unprofessional as well.

Here in NY we had a case last week where a cop shot a guy in a stairwell in an apartment building. The guy had done nothing wrong. He just happened to enter the stairwell at the wrong moment. The police are describing it as an "accidental discharge". Once you take a gun out of the holster, it isn't an accident.

Sounds to me like that pastor is trying to keep these kids from getting killed.

I feel we are at a point where every cop needs a body camera. Where they have been put in use violence both toward and by cops is way down.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

Diver said:


> Sorry, but I am a law abiding citizen and I have had too many experiences with bad cops to agree and I am white, so I can't even blame race. Most of the traffic stops I have experienced have been totally unprofessional as well.
> 
> Here in NY we had a case last week where a cop shot a guy in a stairwell in an apartment building. The guy had done nothing wrong. He just happened to enter the stairwell at the wrong moment. The police are describing it as an "accidental discharge". Once you take a gun out of the holster, it isn't an accident.
> 
> ...


I never said there isn't room for improvement, like mentioning having the personality of a Badger. There are lots of cops who are just plain jerks. I know that when I was one, if you wanted act like an a-hole, I treated you like one. Just like I do in everyday life. Otherwise, I tried to make the situation as positive as I could and treated you like a human being.

If you don't want to have unprofessional traffic stops it's easy...stop doing things to get pulled over. Now I know you'll say you didn't anything to get pulled over, just like most people. But I ask this, and I'm sure I already know your answer, but I'll ask anyway; "What is YOUR attitude like when you get pulled over?

If it's anything like many of your posts on the forum, I can almost guess it's pretty antagonistic. And you will receive a like response. What most people don't understand is this; a cop is not going to hold court on the side of the road. Whether or not YOU agree with why you were pulled over or the ticket you were issued, you're preaching to the choir. THEY, right or wrong, felt you needed to be pulled over or have a ticket written. That is why you talk to the judge. That is why we have them. I deal with the same thing with my students when I issue them a ticket. I did it because I felt, at the time, a ticket was justified, and there is nothing you are going to say to me to change my mind...fill out the form to contest the ticket (that I created) and go talk to the Assistant Principal about it. It's THEIR decision. I've already made mine.

I am all for questioning authority. But you have to question authority to the right people, in the right way. I agree with you that the stairwell incident was not an "accidental discharge". It was a scared cop who has no business being a cop and I hope that he is no longer allowed to be one and that he receives justice for his actions, no matter how "unintentional" they may have been. That young man is dead for NO GOOD REASON.

As far as the pastor, yes, he is trying to keep kids from getting killed. But teach them personal responsibility, morals, making positive choices, getting an education. But you don't teach them hate.

As for body cameras...do you personally have an idea how much they cost? It's prohibitive for many departments. And in some states, hopefully all, but I know in mine, that stuff is a matter of public record. And retrieving, editing, redacting info on them (for privacy purposes) is impossible. Our departments just found that out when the Public Records Request hit. 1000's and 1000's of hours of video. It can take hours to edit just a couple minutes of video to meet the privacy laws protecting innocent people (obscuring their identity, obscuring license plates etc.).

Someone has to watch EVERY second of that video, determine what needs edited, then edit it. A work year is typically 2000 hours. 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks out of the year. Just to review whats already there, not including whats currently being collected. 10,000 hours of video would take one person 5 years, JUST TO WATCH. No editing, just to watch.

It would take 10 people 6 months. It would cost millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars, just in wages and benefits, to comply with a request for a guy that wants nothing more than to post these videos on YouTube.

My local departments are talking now, of shedding the cameras because they can't comply with the Public Records requests regarding their use.

And yes, you are correct, incidents are way down, where camera's are used. But there are implications with their use that you don't understand. Hopefully, I have pointed those out.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Old SF Guy said:


> I both agree and disagree with some of what you have written. I think the LEO issues are from well over a century ago. Look at the history of cops in NY in the early gang wars period and even before in the 1800's dealing with the influx of immigrants and the hatred of irish, etc. All the way into the south during the civil rights strife. But today most blacks are taught by their families and communities from birth that cops are racists and hate them...so they hate white cops right back...it is racism on their part and they openly proclaim that hatred but no one calls them on it publicly. No matter how well police behave these days they will always be hated because it fits their cause and desire to continue to be handed things and coddled by the govt. The black leaders know this and propagate it. Obama knows this and wants to expand it on. . Mjjjjnn.k mexicans so that the elite among them gain power...they do not care. About their own people.


Well, I'm white. I was not brought up to hate cops. My experiences have taught me not to trust them. My experiences have been mild compared to what many blacks go through.

If cops actually followed the rules expressed at the beginning of this thread, my experiences would have been very different, and I'm sure the experiences of many blacks would be different.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Diver said:


> Most of the traffic stops I have experienced have been totally unprofessional as well.


Then I can only assume you have an attitude that is telegraphed in a big way.

I am 71 years old and in my life, I have been pulled over more times than I'd like to admit. NOT once in all those years was the LEO unprofessional -- not once. And I also will admit that in every single case, I deserved to be pulled over because I was breaking some traffic law -- usually driving a bit over what they will allow. I've never been ticketed for "reckless".

Because I always know I was in the wrong, I never give the cops any guff, in fact I try to be a pleasant as I can be under the circumstances. I'm not sure how much of a role that plays but I am going to say that at least half the time, I have received warnings instead of tickets. There was one week about 5 years ago, when I was stopped 3 times. All 3 times I just got a warning. One of the reasons was because the cop had run out of paper tickets, but that was still a very fortunate week for me. EVERY single time, whether I get a warning or a ticket, I make an oath to myself to pay more attention to my driving. And I do obey the laws probably 95% of the time. It's that 5% that has me day-dreaming, or whatever and when I see the blue lights in my rearview mirror -- I look down at the speedometer and say -- "Oh shit".

One thing I have learned over the years though -- and that is that on high volume interstate travel, it is damn stressful on your body, especially the older you get. But if you make a conscious effort to stay mostly in the right lane and drive responsibly, much of that stress is greatly reduced.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Yes, you are 100% correct that taking it to the right lane and at a slow pace is so much better for the body! I take driving very seriously, and am very good at it. That doesn't mean I have to drive like there is always an emergency, and the stress level is kept at a really nice level when I do five below the speed limit. Besides, I can better observe the untrained idjits and laugh at them when I am rolling slower. After all, laughter eases stress, too. :lol:


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I do agree that there are far to many "Bad" cops out there, some are Bad just because they are that way at heart, some have been made that way by interacting with Liars, thugs and pissed off citizens, and some are just automatically seen as Bad because the are letter of the law folks who do not give anyone any breaks. But It's a cycle of their environment, them being alienated by citizens, and the unwillingness to Rat out bad officers by the good officers....That pales in comparison to the criminal activity being conducted by these blacks in their neighborhoods upon each other and then bitching about why racists cops only patrol in force in their neighborhoods. It's like how Blacks complain of why more Blacks are in Jail than whites...Well the answer is quite clear...because more blacks break the laws than whites. Not any other reason...so who needs to change? Blacks. But when anyone even brings up the facts and solutions they are deemed a Racist, if they are white, or an Uncle Tom if they are Black. I think cameras are a good thing and would have prevented the uprising in Ferguson. But yes they are expensive. But a law suit against the Police for brutality , caught on camera by a bystander, would probably cost more. The overall good they could do in providing video evidence to counter "Racist Cop" mantras, as well as in fact forcing bad cops to behave or be found out would be worth the cost. Every Patrol cop gets a car, and a gun, and other resources...A camera is not a whole lot to ask for... I'd rather pay higher taxes in my state for that...Than for it to give a $1million settlement to a person who got the shit beat out of them by a bad cop but doesn't fire his ass.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

If they can't do the job professionally, they don't belong in it. The OP seems to have defined what is professional quite well.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Let's look at number seven, of Peel's Principles. I think it is a pretty important one.

To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

What does that mean to you, and what do you think that should mean to a cop?


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Well guess I have been fortunate. I have never run into many "bad cops" guess I was never blessed with the ability to look into a person's heart and make that judgement. Have worked with one I know was flat crazy (not sure how he made it past the shrink and psycho test) and at least one who was a full blown criminal/thief but never saw them committing un-needed aggression on innocent civilians. That kind of stuff is not well tolerated in most agencies. Head po pos do not like DOJ bleeding hearts or law suits to come calling. Now my left wing big brudder who lived in Sunny CA for quite a few years claim the LA cops are total outlaws but coming from a guy who voted for the Boy King twice..I dont trust his opinions on that topic. Will agree more black folks are in jail because they commit more crimes. I remember a stat I heard 20 years ago..that of all the armed robberies in Dade County Florididdy..75% of the perps were black even though making up a small percentage of inhabitants. The Cubans were a lot less prone to crime even though they made up a large percentage of the populaton. Sure that holds true in most other violent crime categories and other big cities. The body cameras are coming. Believe Dallas is already using them so the podunk towns will get them next. The dash mounted cameras in the cars have saved untold millions in frivolous law suits. The body cams should be even more cost effective. Good point on that.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I seem to run into cops who either want to use inciters or are just plain incompetent. I remember one traffic stop that was ridiculous. I had weaved in the road looking for a turn at night and a cop pulled me over. He asks for my paperwork and asks "what was that about back there?" I replied "I was confused." I thought my turn was at that point but it was actually further up the road. This moron screams at the top of his lungs "DO YOU EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE THAT?" I'm thinking this guy needs to have his meds adjusted. I say nothing and wait. As he thinks about the conversation up to that point he slowly realizes he has just made a total ass of himself. He hands back my documents and just leaves.

That was one of the more professional traffic stops I have experienced.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Diver said:


> I seem to run into cops who either want to use inciters or are just plain incompetent. I remember one traffic stop that was ridiculous. I had weaved in the road looking for a turn at night and a cop pulled me over. He asks for my paperwork and asks "what was that about back there?" I replied "I was confused." I thought my turn was at that point but it was actually further up the road. This moron screams at the top of his lungs "DO YOU EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE THAT?" I'm thinking this guy needs to have his meds adjusted. I say nothing and wait. As he thinks about the conversation up to that point he slowly realizes he has just made a total ass of himself. He hands back my documents and just leaves.
> 
> That was one of the more professional traffic stops I have experienced.


LOLOLOLOL!!!! Reminds me of an incident my first father in law had. He was pulled over by a cop shortly after going through a green light.

Do you know why I pulled you over?

Not a clue.

You ran a red light.

No, it was green.

No, it was red. I was looking dead at it!

Aren't you the cop who was to my left as I went through the light?

The cop thought about it a few seconds, realized it was he who was looking at a red light and not my father in law. He then turned and went back to his patrol car. :lol:

Everybody has "once of those days;" I don't care what the profession.


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## ntxwheels (Oct 25, 2014)

Diver said:


> I seem to run into cops who either want to use inciters or are just plain incompetent. I remember one traffic stop that was ridiculous. I had weaved in the road looking for a turn at night and a cop pulled me over. He asks for my paperwork and asks "what was that about back there?" I replied "I was confused." I thought my turn was at that point but it was actually further up the road. This moron screams at the top of his lungs "DO YOU EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE THAT?" I'm thinking this guy needs to have his meds adjusted. I say nothing and wait. As he thinks about the conversation up to that point he slowly realizes he has just made a total ass of himself. He hands back my documents and just leaves.
> 
> That was one of the more professional traffic stops I have experienced.


Want some cheese with that whine??


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> Let's look at number seven, of Peel's Principles. I think it is a pretty important one.
> 
> To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
> 
> What does that mean to you, and what do you think that should mean to a cop?


It opens up a bit of a can of worms. As a wise person explained this dilemma quite a few years ago when the clamour first started for more training and increased "professionalism" among cops..and as most statues..most especialy those that deal with the use of lethal force..are based on how a John Q. Citizen might react in a similar situation. It muddies the water and ultimately requires the cop to be held to higher standards than a citizen. So somebody needs to figure out if a cop is a professional or a civic minded citizen as per Mr. Peel's model.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> It opens up a bit of a can of worms. As a wise person explained this dilemma quite a few years ago when the clamour first started for more training and increased "professionalism" among cops..and as most statues..most especialy those that deal with the use of lethal force..are based on how a John Q. Citizen might react in a similar situation. It muddies the water and ultimately requires the cop to be held to higher standards than a citizen. So somebody needs to figure out if a cop is a professional or a civic minded citizen as per Mr. Peel's model.


This can was opened by the father of modern policing, in 1829. _Sir_ Robert Peel, by the way. It wasn't a can of worms to be debated, either. His principles were how he expected those who were known as Robert's Runners were to conduct themselves.

Held to a higher standard? No, they should be _the_ standard, realize they are the standard, and live and work accordingly.

This doesn't muddy the waters, at all.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Heck, I'm going to hijack my own thread. Better my own than someone else's. Anyway, Diver started it.

I was rolling with the patrol supervisor one evening when "Tim" called for assistance on a traffic stop. We came upon the scene to see Tim holding his weapon on a man who had his right hand in the area of the small of his back. The man was terrified and had obviously wet himself. We immediately knew what had happened.

Sup walked over to Tim, and this is how the conversation went.

Hey, Tim, got'em covered?

Yes, sir!

What happened?

I asked the driver out of the vehicle, after which time I asked to see his drivers license.

Uh-huh, and then what happened?

He flipped his coat back and went for a gun.

A gun? Tim. What did you want to see, right before he went for the "gun?"

Uh, uh, uh......

:lol:

The gentleman was not issued a citation. There's got to be easier ways of getting out of a ticket, though. :-D


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

ntxwheels said:


> Want some cheese with that whine??


Nope, but I will be treated with the same respect that is asked of me. My opinion of cops has been formed by the cops I have met. They have been disrespectful and frequently hostile. If a cop cannot maintain some civility when he stops someone for weaving in traffic, then he is not a professional and does not deserve my respect. He deserves ridicule.

His colleagues who permit him to continue in the job do not deserve my respect either.

With that background, what I am to think when cops shoot a 12 year old boy playing with a toy gun? My reaction is that this is what happens when a fool like the one who stopped me for weaving in traffic confronts a situation that he is too stupid to decipher. This is the price for a lack of professionalism, which brings us back to the OP and the principles.

With outcomes like this, is there any reason for the community to trust that the local police force is competent to do the job? Do they meet Robert Peel's standard? Does the cop who stopped me for weaving in traffic meet Robert Peel's standard? In both cases I think the cops have failed to meet the standard set by Robert Peel.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Diver said:


> Sorry, but I am a law abiding citizen and I have had too many experiences with bad cops to agree and I am white, so I can't even blame race. Most of the traffic stops I have experienced have been totally unprofessional as well.
> 
> Here in NY we had a case last week where a cop shot a guy in a stairwell in an apartment building. The guy had done nothing wrong. He just happened to enter the stairwell at the wrong moment. The police are describing it as an "accidental discharge". Once you take a gun out of the holster, it isn't an accident.
> 
> ...


yes, body camera is the answer to this, unfortunately not all cities would allow it. why you ask... because the courts could no longer fudge the punishments it should render on criminals. and there are cities that over half of their residents have been either arrested, in jail, on probation or parole. now if you have body camera, how would the people whine and cry of police wrong doing if they have the proof. body camera will make these people look bad and they don't like that. when I work the streets, people love recording me. when I pull out my cell phone they get mad as hell and tell me I don't have the right to video record them on the streets. the problem these days, the kids are taught to hate the police, especially the white police. people don't want to follow rules as simple as parking your vehicle when you want to stop and talk to your buddies on the street. they wont do that. they would stop in the middle of the street to chat and hold traffic. they think you should wait for them and act like the road was built for their personal use alone. so when a patrol man stops these types of people, the cop will be labeled as racist because the issue is petty and they say " don't you have anything else better to do" the bottom line is, if you are a cop, you are already wrong. no matter what a cop does, good or bad its the same thing. cops are always wrong. so yes body camera will provide proof of how people act on the streets.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Denton said:


> Those of you who pursued a degree in Criminal Justice already know this, most likely. This is what we are missing in so many of our police departments, including my town's police department.
> 
> The link and a recap of Peel's Principles:
> 
> ...


this is all good and fine... but this wont matter to the guy who is getting arrested or getting the ticket. bottom line to them is cops are always assholes and always incompetent, stupid and has nothing else to do. oh, I almost forgot... cops are racist too.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

I had an interesting traffic stop about 12 years ago when I was still working. I had business in DC so I was spending the night in Roslyn, VA at a hotel right next to the Iwo Jima Memorial. I went to eat at a '50s style restaurant (kind of like a diner with juke boxes, etc., all playing the great music we grew up with). This diner was situated at a very weird intersection of Wilson Blvd. The parking lot was a merge point of traffic coming from 3 directions. 
I had my dinner (including one beer) and went out to the parking lot. As it was summer, it was still light outside. I got in my car and pulled out into the traffic, only to realize that I had pulled into this intersection on the wrong cycle of the traffic light. (I don't remember if the traffic light was actually visible from the parking lot -- or it could be that I took the wrong part of the parking lot to exit onto the street -- maybe an entrance instead of an exit?). Anyway, all of a sudden I had cars coming at me from all directions -- or so it seemed. I am not normally one to freeze in a hairy situation, but for this one I just stopped dead right there, not knowing which way to pull my car to get out of danger. Horns honking all over the place. All of sudden, I hear this HEAVY pounding on my left rear quarter of the car. I look up and I see this guy on bicycle wearing one of them funny looking lids .... but he had a light blue shirt on, and ...... uh oh ... it had a badge. He then beats on my window, so I lower it and he in a loud voice (to overcome the traffic noise) he yells -- WHAT ARE YOU DOING? I quickly explained that I was not from around there and didn't know the intersection. At this time, his partner -- a lady cop -- also shows up on a bike. The first cop's next words were ... "have you been drinking?" I quickly told him I had one beer. He looks at me again - and must have realized I was not drunk, so he shrugs it off and tells me to wait while he directs the traffic so that I can get on my way. No ticket, no warning. 

The suddenness with which these two bicycle cops appeared was pretty amazing.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

A lot of well thought out, intelligent posts in this thread. Are there bad cops? You bet. Did they and the government handle this wrong? I think so. and I agree with much of what was said here. ( with some reservations ) However, not to over simplify, and dispite the black community trying to raise this kids status to sainthood, based on what I saw in the video he was a thug and was probably heading to prison or death. He got death. Irregardless of police competency, racism, or weather he deserved to die for stealing cigars, and political correctness,This kid forced a bad situation. Both the kid in Furguson and the one in Florida, as far as I am concerned, where looking for trouble. They found it.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I am curious how the posters in this thread feel about the police tactic of using inciters.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Diver said:


> I am curious how the posters in this thread feel about the police tactic of using inciters.


Well, I must be a dumb ass, because I have no freaking idea what you are talking about?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

DerBiermeister said:


> I had an interesting traffic stop about 12 years ago when I was still working. I had business in DC so I was spending the night in Roslyn, VA at a hotel right next to the Iwo Jima Memorial. I went to eat at a '50s style restaurant (kind of like a diner with juke boxes, etc., all playing the great music we grew up with). This diner was situated at a very weird intersection of Wilson Blvd. The parking lot was a merge point of traffic coming from 3 directions.
> I had my dinner (including one beer) and went out to the parking lot. As it was summer, it was still light outside. I got in my car and pulled out into the traffic, only to realize that I had pulled into this intersection on the wrong cycle of the traffic light. (I don't remember if the traffic light was actually visible from the parking lot -- or it could be that I took the wrong part of the parking lot to exit onto the street -- maybe an entrance instead of an exit?). Anyway, all of a sudden I had cars coming at me from all directions -- or so it seemed. I am not normally one to freeze in a hairy situation, but for this one I just stopped dead right there, not knowing which way to pull my car to get out of danger. Horns honking all over the place. All of sudden, I hear this HEAVY pounding on my left rear quarter of the car. I look up and I see this guy on bicycle wearing one of them funny looking lids .... but he had a light blue shirt on, and ...... uh oh ... it had a badge. He then beats on my window, so I lower it and he in a loud voice (to overcome the traffic noise) he yells -- WHAT ARE YOU DOING? I quickly explained that I was not from around there and didn't know the intersection. At this time, his partner -- a lady cop -- also shows up on a bike. The first cop's next words were ... "have you been drinking?" I quickly told him I had one beer. He looks at me again - and must have realized I was not drunk, so he shrugs it off and tells me to wait while he directs the traffic so that I can get on my way. No ticket, no warning.
> 
> The suddenness with which these two bicycle cops appeared was pretty amazing.


Now, they could be called Robert's Runners! Good for them!


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

My experiences with police have been professional. Apply the golden rule: treat them how you would like to be treated. Show a little respect and the majority of the time you will treated with respect. 

I got pulled over last week for speeding in my way home from work. It was a state trooper who have a reputation for being by the book jerks. I used the tips on how to deal with the police from a video posted to this site. Pull over, keys in the dash, hands in the wheel, license and insurance ready and a professional attitude. I got issued a warning. He told me to slow er down and be safe. I could have been a grumpy asshole, but that would have resulted in a similar attitude from the trooper and less money in my pocket. You have to realize how many crazies these guys deal with on a daily basis. They never know what they are walking up on. It could be a guy like me or it could be a sociopath with no respect for life. Just remember your rights and treat them with courtesy and you will be fine.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

DerBiermeister said:


> Well, I must be a dumb ass, because I have no freaking idea what you are talking about?


Plain clothed cops infiltrating a protest to whip up segments of the crowd so that the uniforms can move in and grab them. A way to control the events so that the arrests can be made on the department's time line.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

I think its a common strategy undercover Feds use to try and guide various groups into committing unlawful activity. Know they have tried it with the Kay kay kay etc. Have heard it said that particular group has more FBI infiltrators than it does actual members. Would prob be political incorrect to use the same strategy on bloodthirsty muslims or the Black Panthers. Sure Obummer would never sign off on that.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

One thing I have noticed is the quality of applicants slipping dramatically of late. Departments are cutting the pensions in favor of 401K retirements. The medical benefits are slowly being phased out in favor of putting Officers and families on the exchanges and covering portions of the employees premiums. Starting pay has moved up in order to make departments appear competitive but the pay scales are being tossed out. When the long term employees don't get raises and the starting pay keeps rising you get pay compression. The new guys are making the same and in some cases more than employees with ten years of service. This results in poor morale, poor service, disgruntled Officers and high turn over. Departments are also cutting back on service. 

The new cop is a different creature from when I started. They are very much about the hourly rate. They are less service and goal oriented than they are self oriented. They do not want and will not work overtime, they do exactly what it takes to get by and make an average evaluation and they don't go out of their way to help people. There are, of course exceptions but this is fast becoming the rule.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Hear you on that. I used to work at pay compression city. It p*sses folks off..most especially the old geezers who feel the results heavier than most others. Never did notice many folks shying away from overtime and side jobs. It was typically a highly competitive exercise in jockeying around to get some. The agencies around here are getting swamped with Arab War Vets who are eager for work and tend to make great cops. They can kill folks with bare handed karate chops..jog 10 miles and never break a sweat..kill a deer 2 miles off with a .30-30..tend to be highly tech savvy and assorted other good stuff. I sorta feel sorry for the newer batch of criminals sometimes..lol.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Denton said:


> Plain clothed cops infiltrating a protest to whip up segments of the crowd so that the uniforms can move in and grab them. A way to control the events so that the arrests can be made on the department's time line.


And this actually happens?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

DerBiermeister said:


> And this actually happens?


Oh, yes.

Look at it this way. You know who is liable to start trouble because you have been monitoring the situation. You use "plants" to get them fired up and starting trouble at a time and place more convenient for you to snatch and grab them, rather than waiting for them to do it at the time and place that best suits them.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> Plain clothed cops infiltrating a protest to whip up segments of the crowd so that the uniforms can move in and grab them. A way to control the events so that the arrests can be made on the department's time line.


Actually it is much simpler than that. It applies any time a cop is trying to escalate a situation. Basically, a cop stops you for something minor, or no reason at all, and starts screaming at you and giving you a hard time in the hopes you'll run or fight. He might even start to push you around or spit in your face. Then he gets to bust you for much more serious offenses than what he originally stopped you for, which might be nothing at all.

The practice is ridiculously common. Think about the recent Saratoga Springs cop who slapped a motorist. That's an example.

One of the benefits of body cameras is to put a damper on such practices.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Diver said:


> Actually it is much simpler than that. It applies any time a cop is trying to escalate a situation. Basically, a cop stops you for something minor, or no reason at all, and starts screaming at you and giving you a hard time in the hopes you'll run or fight. He might even start to push you around or spit in your face. Then he gets to bust you for much more serious offenses than what he originally stopped you for, which might be nothing at all.
> 
> The practice is ridiculously common. Basically he is trying to escalate the situation.
> 
> One of the benefits of body cameras is to put a damper on such practices.


Oh, you and I are talking about two different things. My bad.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Not that its much on topic but i have a story along that line. I used to work with a guy who had been an undercover narc in Harris County..aka Jouston back in the good old days. He had a nice beard and hair and could pass for a hippy by any test. He was assigned to incite a big dope infested picnic drinking fest in the park. The idea was they were going to arrest whoever he picked out and him too. Well his partner from when he was on patrol was part of the raiding party. He happened to be real drunk that day..and grabbed my friend up by the hair and proceeded to give him a pistol whipping across the chops..which proceeded till my pal convinced him he was a good guy. They did some crazy stuff down there in them days. Not sure why it always seemed like a funny story.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> Oh, you and I are talking about two different things. My bad.


No, your example is also law enforcement trying to escalate a situation. You're talking about a large scale example and I am talking more day to day, what happens to those of us who are law abiding citizens who run into bad cops. The guys that engage in this nonsense are destroying the public trust in law enforcement and trust me when I tell you there are a lot of them.

Also note, that when Wilson told Brown to get out of the street he might have said "Sir, you're blocking traffic, would you please step aside." or he might have said "Hey dirtbag, get you fat ass out of the middle of the street."

The whole situation looks a bit different depending on what you think was said. In case 1, Brown committed an unprovoked attack. In case 2, Wilson wanted to escalate and succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Diver said:


> No, your example is also law enforcement trying to escalate a situation. You're talking about a large scale example and I am talking more day to day, what happens to those of us who are law abiding citizens who run into bad cops. The guys that engage in this nonsense are destroying the public trust in law enforcement and trust me when I tell you there are a lot of them.
> 
> Also note, that when Wilson told Brown to get out of the street he might have said "Sir, you're blocking traffic, would you please step aside." or he might have said "Hey dirtbag, get you fat ass out of the middle of the street."
> 
> The whole situation looks a bit different depending on what you think was said. In case 1, Brown committed an unprovoked attack. In case 2, Wilson wanted to escalate and succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.


I see your point. What do I think of such activity. Considering this is the Peel's Principles thread, I think you know what I think of such actions.

Do I think Wilson provoked the situation in such a manner? I don't think so. Furthermore, I don't think it would've been needed for the situation to escalate. The two thugs were walking down the middle of the street. These two thugs didn't drop out of the sky with no understanding of streets and sidewalks. I've seen this tactic, before.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> I see your point. What do I think of such activity. Considering this is the Peel's Principles thread, I think you know what I think of such actions.
> 
> Do I think Wilson provoked the situation in such a manner? I don't think so. Furthermore, I don't think it would've been needed for the situation to escalate. The two thugs were walking down the middle of the street. These two thugs didn't drop out of the sky with no understanding of streets and sidewalks. I've seen this tactic, before.


Well, if we had camera footage we would know. That's why I think we need body cameras. The camera actually causes the behavior of everyone involved to be better.

You might enjoy the book "Arrest Proof Yourself" by Dale Carson. It's available n Kindle.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Denton said:


> Plain clothed cops infiltrating a protest to whip up segments of the crowd so that the uniforms can move in and grab them. A way to control the events so that the arrests can be made on the department's time line.


No such thing, at least not where I work.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

mhans827 said:


> yes, body camera is the answer to this, unfortunately not all cities would allow it. why you ask... because the courts could no longer fudge the punishments it should render on criminals. and there are cities that over half of their residents have been either arrested, in jail, on probation or parole. now if you have body camera, how would the people whine and cry of police wrong doing if they have the proof. body camera will make these people look bad and they don't like that. when I work the streets, people love recording me. when I pull out my cell phone they get mad as hell and tell me I don't have the right to video record them on the streets. the problem these days, the kids are taught to hate the police, especially the white police. people don't want to follow rules as simple as parking your vehicle when you want to stop and talk to your buddies on the street. they wont do that. they would stop in the middle of the street to chat and hold traffic. they think you should wait for them and act like the road was built for their personal use alone. so when a patrol man stops these types of people, the cop will be labeled as racist because the issue is petty and they say " don't you have anything else better to do" the bottom line is, if you are a cop, you are already wrong. no matter what a cop does, good or bad its the same thing. cops are always wrong. so yes body camera will provide proof of how people act on the streets.


But the answer to that is simple...do not leave it up to your city...start a movement to get it on the ballot at the City or state level...Nothing better than starting a petition. We The People could make that a mandate on police and the city, vice them simply choosing to do it.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

The bottom line is this...Sure there are some bad cops...and there are some bad citizens....Cameras show everyone who was what in a situation...If they can put CCT cameras up everywhere to capture images of the citizens doing bad things (traffic cams, etc) then they should put them where it benefits both the city and the citizens...on the enforcers of laws so that both sides get equal opportunity to have truth represented. (exceptions for undercover work obviously). This would cut so many BS lawsuits out of the system it would save millions over all. "He assaulted me!!!" Ah...ma'am...would you like to review the video footage?"....wha' video??? .ya'll didn't ax me bout no damn video takin....It's the law ma'am we have to now because of all the BS lawsuits and lies......awwww shit......"


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

Old SF Guy said:


> The bottom line is this...Sure there are some bad cops...and there are some bad citizens....Cameras show everyone who was what in a situation...If they can put CCT cameras up everywhere to capture images of the citizens doing bad things (traffic cams, etc) then they should put them where it benefits both the city and the citizens...on the enforcers of laws so that both sides get equal opportunity to have truth represented. (exceptions for undercover work obviously). This would cut so many BS lawsuits out of the system it would save millions over all. "He assaulted me!!!" Ah...ma'am...would you like to review the video footage?"....wha' video??? .ya'll didn't ax me bout no damn video takin....It's the law ma'am we have to now because of all the BS lawsuits and lies......awwww shit......"


SF -

You and I agree on almost everything (except remakes of Frank Sinatra songs). But damn man, if I wanted to live in London, I would move to England. I do not want CCTV on cops or citizens. We have the forensic science to be able to piece together a crime scene very accurately without cameras everywhere. For those instances where the science does not work, I prefer Jefferson's adage: It is better to let a guilty man go free [and have his face punched in by Inor] than to persecute an innocent man. (Part of that was added by me in case you thought Thomas Jefferson was clairvoyant.)


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> No such thing, at least not where I work.


We had plenty of that BS during Vietnam era protests, mostly feds. I have no idea how much is involved now.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Inor said:


> SF -
> 
> You and I agree on almost everything (except remakes of Frank Sinatra songs). But damn man, if I wanted to live in London, I would move to England. I do not want CCTV on cops or citizens. We have the forensic science to be able to piece together a crime scene very accurately without cameras everywhere. For those instances where the science does not work, I prefer Jefferson's adage: It is better to let a guilty man go free [and have his face punched in by Inor] than to persecute an innocent man. (Part of that was added by me in case you thought Thomas Jefferson was clairvoyant.)


Unfortunately it is already like that around here. I get photographed at about half the traffic lights I go through now and I am in a low crime area. When I go into NY I probably pass 15 cops on the short walk to change trains and am subject to searches. The NSA now has every phone call, email and forum post I make. I've long since lost count of the number of times I have been fingerprinted. Despite privacy laws Obamacare has essentially made all of our healthcare records public property.

I was monitored less when I was in Russia than I am here today.


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

Diver said:


> Thank you for posting this. I've been reading more Ferguson threads than I care to and this brings a bit of balance.
> 
> I do not trust cops. I have yet to meet any that have the competence expressed in these rules so they do not have my trust. I also recognize that the typical young black male in an urban area has it much worse than I do.
> 
> ...


Lil'Mike did not "die for a box of cigars or for walking in the street". He died for attacking a police officer and when he could have gotten away, he came back for a second helping. A police officer has as much right to self defence and survival as you or me. 
A former career cop and talk radio host once said; (paraphrased) "You know why blacks make up 12% of the nations population and 49% of the prison population? Because they're guilty!" Ken Hamblin aka The Black Avenger.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Old SF Guy said:


> The bottom line is this...Sure there are some bad cops...and there are some bad citizens....Cameras show everyone who was what in a situation...If they can put CCT cameras up everywhere to capture images of the citizens doing bad things (traffic cams, etc) then they should put them where it benefits both the city and the citizens...on the enforcers of laws so that both sides get equal opportunity to have truth represented. (exceptions for undercover work obviously). This would cut so many BS lawsuits out of the system it would save millions over all. "He assaulted me!!!" Ah...ma'am...would you like to review the video footage?"....wha' video??? .ya'll didn't ax me bout no damn video takin....It's the law ma'am we have to now because of all the BS lawsuits and lies......awwww shit......"


in my city, we the cops, asked for the camera. city hall and the people would not allow it for the same reasons you wrote above. you are right about some cops being corrupt and abusive, we do have them in our department too. but out of 5,000 police you may have a dozen of them bad apples. the camera will improve that to 99% good cops. but the people do not want to get caught, imagine if a citizen committed a crime and it was on film, how would the judge hand down a slap on the wrist. my city has a very high crime rate due to the revolving door justice system (thank to the democrats). without the cameras, judges are able to give out slaps on the wrist, give them the minimum sentence and they are out to commit crime again. there is an officer who bought his own camera and wears it on duty. he was threatened by the department, they said he had to take them off because it was not authorized. he got wrongfully sued on time and presented a video, he got acquitted and saved the city some money and they were not even thankful for that. you talk about corrupt cops, yes there are bad cops.... if you only knew how corrupt the city hall could get it would blow your mind.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Diver said:


> We had plenty of that BS during Vietnam era protests, mostly feds. I have no idea how much is involved now.


we don't put infiltrator. we pull out our video cameras. I have been on these kinds of assignment already, during Treyvon martin and Michael brown protest. and no the protest was not even near ferguson. I was tasked to video tape the protesters and the agitators. by the way, I wrote a response about body cameras not being allowed in my city by our powers to be, but we used cameras when we are and our careers are put in harms way. besides if nothing happens the footage will just be forgotten. but as for infiltrators to start trouble so arrest could be done, we don't do that. if a police agency does that, I think a good lawyer could get them for 1A violation and other charges too.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Inor said:


> SF -
> 
> You and I agree on almost everything (except remakes of Frank Sinatra songs). But damn man, if I wanted to live in London, I would move to England. I do not want CCTV on cops or citizens. We have the forensic science to be able to piece together a crime scene very accurately without cameras everywhere. For those instances where the science does not work, I prefer Jefferson's adage: It is better to let a guilty man go free [and have his face punched in by Inor] than to persecute an innocent man. (Part of that was added by me in case you thought Thomas Jefferson was clairvoyant.)


INOR don't get me wrong...I don't like public cameras and would prefer there only be cameras that a company wants to install in their own place of business...But the one place I do want cameras is on police officers as a means to keep them honest and to help me protect my rights. I have heard stories (not verified) of folks getting there phones confiscated as evidence when they tried to record a traffic stop and never getting them back. So I would prefer to know that there is at least one camera feed that is mandated and if subpoenaed through the courts, could be retrieved, and it's lack of submission (corrupted data, etc) would count in my favor. I am not a fan at all of having cameras capture me scratching my ass on the street and popping up on youtube...but when I have to interact with a cop...I think the good out weighs the bad.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I'm not opposed to dashcams or cameras on the Officer themselves. If they are doing heir job the right way it shouldn't matter and will actually serve to exonerate Officers who are wrongly accused.

I worked a traffic crash in which an uninsured, illegal alien struck another car. When I arrived it had already become a heated argument. I separated them to separate parking lots. I issued the illegal two citations and explained that he would have to call his friends or family for a ride home as he was unlicensed. The other driver was inconsolable. He yelled at me the whole time came at me with a closed fist and threatened to sue. I gave him a report number and advised him to call his insurance company. The next day he filed an official complaint and began casting aspersions against me on Social Media. I was instructed to report to the Chief's Office. It had already been decided that I would be punished. I had not even been given the opportunity to give my account.

I asked my supervisor if anyone was interested in watching the footage of the incident from my Mobile Video Recorder he said "There's a video?". Great investigative skills boss.....Yes. The video completely exonerated me and the Chief said only "You showed great restraint and patience with that guy." The insults kept pouring in from the driver until I threatened civil action for defamation and made sure everyone knew the whole incident was recorded and that the tape was available for public viewing. That video saved my butt and I did nothing wrong. Sometimes we are guilty before we even get a chance to explain what happened from our perspective. It is one of the reasons that when I retire from Police work I'm done.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Boss Dog said:


> Lil'Mike did not "die for a box of cigars or for walking in the street". He died for attacking a police officer and when he could have gotten away, he came back for a second helping. A police officer has as much right to self defence and survival as you or me.
> A former career cop and talk radio host once said; (paraphrased) "You know why blacks make up 12% of the nations population and 49% of the prison population? Because they're guilty!" Ken Hamblin aka The Black Avenger.


So you are saying there was no prior interaction between Wilson and Brown? or between Brown and other members of the Ferguson police department?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> in my city, we the cops, asked for the camera. city hall and the people would not allow it for the same reasons you wrote above. you are right about some cops being corrupt and abusive, we do have them in our department too. but out of 5,000 police you may have a dozen of them bad apples. the camera will improve that to 99% good cops. but the people do not want to get caught, imagine if a citizen committed a crime and it was on film, how would the judge hand down a slap on the wrist. my city has a very high crime rate due to the revolving door justice system (thank to the democrats). without the cameras, judges are able to give out slaps on the wrist, give them the minimum sentence and they are out to commit crime again. there is an officer who bought his own camera and wears it on duty. he was threatened by the department, they said he had to take them off because it was not authorized. he got wrongfully sued on time and presented a video, he got acquitted and saved the city some money and they were not even thankful for that. you talk about corrupt cops, yes there are bad cops.... if you only knew how corrupt the city hall could get it would blow your mind.


I applaud you for wanting the cameras, but "the people" don't decide what equipment you have or there would not be a single MRAP in a police department anywhere. Do the people decide whether you have body armor? I suggest you buy your own camera. I understand they run about $3-400 each for a good one.

If the city doesn't like it change jobs. If you work as a cop for a corrupt city, then what are you?


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Mr. Diver I think you will be the first to meet Mr. Twit Filter on here.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> Mr. Diver I think you will be the first to meet Mr. Twit Filter on here.


If we have a good cop that wants to protect himself from bogus claims by wearing a camera, no one should stop him from doing so.

On the other hand if he thinks his employer is corrupt and he's a cop, why isn't he addressing the problem? I've quit jobs over less. There is always employment for good people.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Diver said:


> If we have a good cop that wants to protect himself from bogus claims by wearing a camera, no one should stop him from doing so.
> 
> On the other hand if he thinks his employer is corrupt and he's a cop, why isn't he addressing the problem? I've quit jobs over less. There is always employment for good people.


Some people actually think they can make a difference and make things better. Personally, I think life will simply chew them up.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.

Another rule that was instilled upon this once young pup.

Yeah, yeah, there are going to be times when you are faced with an angry, violent person who gives you know choice. That is a given, so I don't think I even need to bring it up.

What should be a cop's best tool when dealing with people? Not a can of mace, a taser or a sidearm, but his mind. Being able to deal with human beings as a human being, with empathy, compassion and understanding, coupled with appropriate humor can diffuse a lot of otherwise bad situations.

A way it was put to me, years ago. You've done something wrong if your presence on the scene causes the situation to worsen. You are doing things right if the situation gets better. There's no clock ticking; you have all the time you need.

The U.S. Army Police motto is, "Of the Troops and _For_ the Troops." It is not, "Above the Troops and Beat the Crap Out of the Troops." Just one example that popped into mind.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Officer presence is the first step in the use of force continuum. The second, and one that we simply don't train enough on is verbal dialog. The ability to deescalate a situation and convince a person to comply is an absolute gift that few officers possess. There are plenty of "Cops" out there but precious few "Peacemakers" and "Peace Officers". "Cops" think the "Peacemakers" aloof and affable while the antithesis is no more accurate. We have to strike a balance in this profession, now more than ever. A good, professional Police Officer must be able to go from one end of the spectrum to the other in an instant. he or she is perpetually in the middle.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Right right. Verbal Judo. Good point.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> Right right. Verbal Judo. Good point.


No, not verbal judo. That implies the citizen is the enemy and the cop is the warrior. Wrong idea, wrong profession, and a big part of the problem we see, today. A man's attitude shines through, more so than you might think. Do you think the citizen can't smell such an attitude?

Why is it that a cop is making contact with a citizen is an important thing. How it is happening is important, too.

Today's notion of patrolling is based on Sir Peel's men, who were called "Robert's Runners." Robert's Runners ran through the streets of London, giving the appearance of omnipresence. A pick-pocket, robber, mugger or thief had no idea if his activity was going to be caught by one of Robert's Runners coming around the corner. Side note - I guess one can understand where the term, "Bobby" came from, right? Back on target. How do we see patrolling used, nowadays? Speed enforcement. Rather than giving the appearance of omnipresence throughout the city/town in order to prevent crimes against the people, the car is used to make contact with the citizen so that the citizen might have the opportunity to pay extra tax based on uniform commercial codes, rather than using that same car to patrol neighborhoods, where families and property can be found.

How can one expect the public to view Officer Friendly, when the usual form of contact with him is blue lights behind the car, little to no discussion and the meeting ending with the issuing of a citation?

See, there was a time when peace officers made contact with citizens for misdemeanors after an injured party made and swore to an affidavit, which caused the judge to issue an arrest or search warrant, which caused the officer to serve the warrant and carry out whatever the warrant indicated. Of course, nothing more than witnessing a felony was reason enough for the officer to make contact with the offender. Of course, this is a basic description, but it is clear that the individual, the reason for a government in the first place, was respected and he was not to be the object of interference was he conducted his pursuit of happiness.

Like society in general, our professional policemen might need to study the basics, again.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Can the cops make a difference? Well, I thought about it a bit, and realized they can. I say this because it has happened.

I worked in a small town of less the 20,000 people. Monday night was court night, and most cases were traffic related. One night, a beautiful young girl's plea was simply that she did not want to pay the ticket. The judge asked how bad did she not want to pay the ticket. The girl went to the judge, sat on his lap and gave him a big hug. She was found not guilty. Every other case was found guilty. What did the cops do in response? They turned in the KR-10's tossed their citation books into their brief cases and wrote no more tickets.

Just an example.


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