# mag swap technique



## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

I have been working with some students who came from another “Professional Instructor” and man they have some wicked bad habits. But that’s not what this thread is about. As preppers we plan and train for many things. But I wonder how many train to just eject the empty mag and slam a full one home. I think its important to consider whether this technique makes sense as a prepper. I mean if you are in a fire fight of coarse the fastest reload possible is important. But consider this, how many magazines do you have? How easy will they be to replace in a post SHTF world? So I have been teaching my students to catch the empty and load a full mag with one hand and man is it comical to watch at times. So I was just wondering who else trains this way or do you just let the mag hit the ground and hope to win the firefight so you can recover it?


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

smart thinking bama, a lot won't teach it cause its not tacticool


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

I don't think practicing how fast you can change a magazine is all that important. You should be changing your magazine under cover. Much more important to make sure your magazine is seated and locked in position.
Being able to grab a magazine and quickly loading a new one in the gun at home is one thing, but if people are shooting at you it would be something else, best to leave that for TV.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Every second counts in a firefight. Here is a simple school of thought I was given 40 years ago. If you win, you can go back & retrieve the empty mags. If you loose, doesn't matter where they ended up.


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

rickkyw1720pf said:


> I don't think practicing how fast you can change a magazine is all that important. You should be changing your magazine under cover. Much more important to make sure your magazine is seated and locked in position.
> Being able to grab a magazine and quickly loading a new one in the gun at home is one thing, but if people are shooting at you it would be something else, best to leave that for TV.


I would have to disagree, seconds count. Especially if you are caught without cover. Train for all scenarios!

Form that muscle memory and you'll be able to do it without thought.


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

HuntingHawk said:


> Every second counts in a firefight. Here is a simple school of thought I was given 40 years ago. If you win, you can go back & retrieve the empty mags. If you loose, doesn't matter where they ended up.


While your response works on some level what if your forced to run and cant return? Or do you think the mags will still be there when you return? Best to hang on to those mags then take a chance on being deprived of them&#8230;..


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## bhtacticaloutdoors (Nov 17, 2013)

Dump pouch... It's best to retain but in a firefight its not priority. Probably be better to have reserve mags, but a good thing to get it in peoples minds to retain that mag if they can.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The army isn't buying my mags, nowadays. I don't want to lose a single one. That being said, I am with Rick in that if I miss the bag when tossing the empty, I'll get it later - assuming I win. 
Cover. That's something to keep. Losing mags is the last of my worries if I lose cover. Wherever they drop, I'll find them, later. I'm not going to be leaving the county.
The old KISS theory always did me well.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

bhtacticaloutdoors said:


> Dump pouch... It's best to retain but in a firefight its not priority. Probably be better to have reserve mags, but a good thing to get it in peoples minds to retain that mag if they can.


Dump pouch. Yes.


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

bhtacticaloutdoors said:


> Dump pouch... It's best to retain but in a firefight its not priority. Probably be better to have reserve mags, but a good thing to get it in peoples minds to retain that mag if they can.


I agree and disagree, train to do it now and later it just becomes part of it. A dump pouch is also something I recomend...


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

Denton said:


> The army isn't buying my mags, nowadays. I don't want to lose a single one. That being said, I am with Rick in that if I miss the bag when tossing the empty, I'll get it later - assuming I win.
> Cover. That's something to keep. Losing mags is the last of my worries if I lose cover. Wherever they drop, I'll find them, later. I'm not going to be leaving the county.
> The old KISS theory always did me well.


Get pinned down with one mag and loose shells would be a bad situation. But I do understand your position!


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

I believe in mag retention and a dump pouch but never let the whereabouts of the empty distract you. Save them if you can, leave them if you must. My first inclination these days is to try and break contact, and mag retention is down the priority list.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Anyone ever heard the noise made with empty mags in a dump bag when a person is walking?

There use to be a saying which I guess has been lost over the years. 10 mags per rifle & enough ammo to load those mags twice. 5 for handguns whether it be mags or speedloaders. Also that two is one & one is none. So whatever rifle you decide on the second can be a different version but use the same caliber & mags.

Exception to the above is the M1 Garand & you want probably a minimum of 60 enblocs per rifle. You can still buy enblocs in bulk for $1 each.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Stop shooting lower weapon put safety on clear weapon, clear it again.
Carefully remove the mag inspect and place in you mag holder. Remove fresh mag close cover of you holder inspect fresh mag.
Insert firmly do not slam. pull slide to the rear release. Inspect loaded weapon indicator to see weapon is loaded.
point down range at threat, do not remove safety until ready to fire.
Forget it you died some time around step one.
Self defense unlikely you will ever reload. SHTF if you are changing mags life has got way to hard to worry about style drop the darn thing and keep shooting. Pray you will be around to pick it up.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

I understand that mag retention could be a needed consideration at some point.
My students are my wife and two daughters, 
Simple considerations for them and 98 % of the persons out their should be lead on target, aiming, trigger etc.
If a well trained group of military persons attach them who have been through mag retention training they will likely be over come.
If the typical near do well comes to steal a ham samich, which will be the most likely offensive.
First priority is One lead on center mass, the rest is secondary and tertiary. 
I agree it would be important for higher trained individuals the one percenters of the militia, the other 99% need to aim and squeeze.


I personally would like to be considered for mag retention training.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

"As you train, . . . so you do" is a concept that has been around for more centuries than history has.

Going back to the training given LEO's prior to the big shootout in Miami, . . . "put your empties in your pocket so they can be reloaded", . . . 

At least one dead LEO was found with his empties in his pocket.

Did it contribute to his death? Probably not, . . . but one thing for sure, . . . it did not contribute to his survival.

Mag retention comes somewhere after:

Survival, . . . head count, . . . attention to the wounded, . . . AAR, . . . patrol and sweep for more BG's, . . . food, . . . and maybe a bathroom break.

At least that was the general scenario in my military training. 

As I trained, . . . so shall I do.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

Keeping the gun gassed up and in the fight is the most important part of a gun fight. Retaining or recovering a mag is secondary. Ideally, you should be able to swap mags behind cover, and stow the empty/used mag, but that's not always guaranteed. If you're caught in the open, in a room etc, and need to swap mags, drop that sucker. After you have your gun gassed up and ready to go, you can worry about recovering it.

This brings up a pint that hopefully we've all thought about already: extra mags. No matter what your weapon is, you will want to have extra mags. I'm not talking about 7 on your kit, plus the two you take to the range, I'm talking about the ten or twenty mags you have in storage for the rainy day. Mags will be lost, they will break, and some might just never work out right. Have backups. And extra backups. And spares for your extra backups. That's one of the biggest advantages of weapons like the PTR 91 or the AR, mags are dirt cheap and very easy to buy in bulk.


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

Certain mags for certain firearms cost $$$$.would you drop a scarce and expensive mag on the ground on the run like a HK or even a Taurus?.not me,the technique I have practiced forever was to drop the mag into my left hand,stuff it in my pocket(hopefully,I am pretty good at it)pull mag from mag pouch on left hand side (I shoot r/h)and slam it home.my current 9mm is a single stack and I carry 2 backups.practice,practice,and then practice.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Alpha-17 said:


> Keeping the gun gassed up and in the fight is the most important part of a gun fight. *Retaining or recovering a mag is secondary.* Ideally, you should be able to swap mags behind cover, and stow the empty/used mag, but that's not always guaranteed. If you're caught in the open, in a room etc, and need to swap mags, drop that sucker. After you have your gun gassed up and ready to go, you can worry about recovering it.


My number one priority is going to be avoiding gun fights. If I can't, my new number one priority is going to be eliminating threats or extracting myself and anyone with me safely. If I lose a mag in order to save a life, I'm okay with that.


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

MI.oldguy said:


> Certain mags for certain firearms cost $$$$.would you drop a scarce and expensive mag on the ground on the run like a HK or even a Taurus?.not me,the technique I have practiced forever was to drop the mag into my left hand,stuff it in my pocket(hopefully,I am pretty good at it)pull mag from mag pouch on left hand side (I shoot r/h)and slam it home.my current 9mm is a single stack and I carry 2 backups.practice,practice,and then practice.


Well we train a little differently. Eject and catch with a fresh mag in the same hand and slam the new mag. Fire while returning the empty if necessary . This adds about 3 tenths of a second to my reload time and if I make it to cover I can focus some on reloading the mags.


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

Alpha-17 said:


> Keeping the gun gassed up and in the fight is the most important part of a gun fight. Retaining or recovering a mag is secondary. Ideally, you should be able to swap mags behind cover, and stow the empty/used mag, but that's not always guaranteed. If you're caught in the open, in a room etc, and need to swap mags, drop that sucker. After you have your gun gassed up and ready to go, you can worry about recovering it.
> 
> This brings up a pint that hopefully we've all thought about already: extra mags. No matter what your weapon is, you will want to have extra mags. I'm not talking about 7 on your kit, plus the two you take to the range, I'm talking about the ten or twenty mags you have in storage for the rainy day. Mags will be lost, they will break, and some might just never work out right. Have backups. And extra backups. And spares for your extra backups. That's one of the biggest advantages of weapons like the PTR 91 or the AR, mags are dirt cheap and very easy to buy in bulk.


Agree, but you will find it hard to keep the gun gassed if all your extra mags are on the ground in a hot spot and all you have is the one in the gun..


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

dwight55 said:


> "As you train, . . . so you do" is a concept that has been around for more centuries than history has.
> 
> Going back to the training given LEO's prior to the big shootout in Miami, . . . "put your empties in your pocket so they can be reloaded", . . .
> 
> ...


I can understand your points but I say this. I never thought much of the LEO's training. I have had range time with many and the training they display is minimal compared to many of my students so much so that I am now giving a few LEO's advanced training.

But let me clarify this a bit. In todays world in a firefight mag retention is not as big a priority. But in a post SHTF world mag retention becomes a much greater concern as replacement may be impossible.


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Stop shooting lower weapon put safety on clear weapon, clear it again.
> Carefully remove the mag inspect and place in you mag holder. Remove fresh mag close cover of you holder inspect fresh mag.
> Insert firmly do not slam. pull slide to the rear release. Inspect loaded weapon indicator to see weapon is loaded.
> point down range at threat, do not remove safety until ready to fire.
> ...


To Funny, I also advocate swabbing the barrel before loading the second magazine and making sure the barrel does not over heat. And then be sure to yell range hot before returning fire. And before you reload stand up while waving and yell at the opposition Time Out!


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

Another idea is a coupler. I don't know how effective the aftermarket one's are, but I have a few military ones that come with a mag pouch that holds the coupled mags. Of course, drop one of those and you just lost two mags...


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

BamaBoy101 said:


> To Funny, I also advocate swabbing the barrel before loading the second magazine and making sure the barrel does not over heat. And then be sure to yell range hot before returning fire. And before you reload stand up while waving and yell at the opposition Time Out!


 We left out announcing in a loud firm voice. Reload, weapon on safe, weapon clear. check safety


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> We left out announcing in a loud firm voice. Reload, weapon on safe, weapon clear. check safety


True, true we cant forget that!


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Mag retention when doing an administrative reload, drop free when reloading from slidelock /bolt open under fire. Yes I practice both,I also carry loose ammo,the dam Kahr mags lose them.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

BamaBoy101 said:


> Get pinned down with one mag and loose shells would be a bad situation. But I do understand your position!


True, but you're not going to catch me with loose rounds, and I am in a world of hurt of I have gone through my mags and am at a point where I need to refill them. How will I do so if I am caught out in the open, not that I intend on letting that happen. If I am traversing terrain, I am not carrying a case on my back. I have my rifle and the magazines I am carrying. The terrain is familiar ground, and if I miss the field bag when trying to keep accountability, that is no big deal. If I am pinned down and survive, I will be able to retrieve a discarded mag, later. If I am caught unaware by some bad scene in town, I'll have my EDC and a couple of mags; I don't carry extra boxes of ammo in the truck. If it has gotten to where things are to the point I think that is a good idea, I'll simply shove more pistol mags in my bag before heading out, though I don't know why I would head to town in such a situation.

There is a couple of reasons why I like a good KISS plan. When things go horribly and quickly wrong, the body does certain things to put the body in fight mode. Even with training, the body will do certain things in the first few minutes that make dexterity not as good as when one is training under normal circumstances. While the heart goes into warp drive, the circulatory system constricts the vessels to the outer regions (hands and feet, for example) to supply more oxygen to what it considers more important parts. That's fine if you are needing to club another human to death or run like a frightened school girl, but it danged sure makes tasks requiring nimble fingers to be a royal struggle. So, what happens when you have trained to do something that requires dexterity and your body is now fighting against this? Your brain now has to stop, go against repetitive training, and concentrate on belaying that order so that the hand will simply drop the item. As noted, you'll fall back on training in a mindless manner (the whole point in training) and will resist breaking it, even if it isn't working well due to intense stress.

KISS. Though I like what you are saying in theory, I have found that such things can get screwed to heck and back when intense stress is dumped onto the body. And, at my middle-aged state, picking my nose when thinking hard can cause a painful situation! :lol:


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

Denton said:


> True, but you're not going to catch me with loose rounds, and I am in a world of hurt of I have gone through my mags and am at a point where I need to refill them. How will I do so if I am caught out in the open, not that I intend on letting that happen. If I am traversing terrain, I am not carrying a case on my back. I have my rifle and the magazines I am carrying. The terrain is familiar ground, and if I miss the field bag when trying to keep accountability, that is no big deal. If I am pinned down and survive, I will be able to retrieve a discarded mag, later. If I am caught unaware by some bad scene in town, I'll have my EDC and a couple of mags; I don't carry extra boxes of ammo in the truck. If it has gotten to where things are to the point I think that is a good idea, I'll simply shove more pistol mags in my bag before heading out, though I don't know why I would head to town in such a situation.
> 
> There is a couple of reasons why I like a good KISS plan. When things go horribly and quickly wrong, the body does certain things to put the body in fight mode. Even with training, the body will do certain things in the first few minutes that make dexterity not as good as when one is training under normal circumstances. While the heart goes into warp drive, the circulatory system constricts the vessels to the outer regions (hands and feet, for example) to supply more oxygen to what it considers more important parts. That's fine if you are needing to club another human to death or run like a frightened school girl, but it danged sure makes tasks requiring nimble fingers to be a royal struggle. So, what happens when you have trained to do something that requires dexterity and your body is now fighting against this? Your brain now has to stop, go against repetitive training, and concentrate on belaying that order so that the hand will simply drop the item. As noted, you'll fall back on training in a mindless manner (the whole point in training) and will resist breaking it, even if it isn't working well due to intense stress.
> 
> KISS. Though I like what you are saying in theory, I have found that such things can get screwed to heck and back when intense stress is dumped onto the body. And, at my middle-aged state, picking my nose when thinking hard can cause a painful situation! :lol:


My rig contains 6 15 round mags and 1 loaded with one in the pipe. I also have 50 rounds in a pouch on my gear. I would rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them. From where I stand mag retention is like everything else, train, train, train and did I say train? In a fight muscle memory takes over and the training kicks in.

As for retrieval, if you win then yes you can probably retrieve your mags. But if you loose and are forced to run, returning and finding that lost equipment will be unlikely. But at the end of the day train the way you see fit. We can agree to disagree&#8230;..


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## Just Sayin' (Dec 5, 2013)

I've been trained to put tactical reload mags back into the mag carrier the full one just came out of. The thinking being, if you've got time to reload when you've still got bullets in the mag, you will have time to put a partial back into the "playing field". Empty's go into a dump pouch if time or circumstances allow. Nowhere in my training has actually reloading a mag during a fight ever crossed the radar screen. I have always assumed that you reload after the fight is done on our scale. Yeah, I know it might happen during a protracted fight, but don't really think it's something worth training for.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

In service, I was shown to grab full mag in left hand. As left hand comes up to empty mag, only thumb and index finger remains on fresh mag. Index finger goes against left side of empty mag and 3 remaining fingers grasp empty mag (index finger acts as spacer), and extracts empty mag when released. Full mag is inserted and tugged to insure it's seated and locked. Empty can go in bag if possible. Please remember, I was USAF and mags weren't throw away to us.


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## bhtacticaloutdoors (Nov 17, 2013)

If you have to start shoving rounds in your empty mag to get rounds down range your failing. It should be assumed that when your training your going against top notch fighters. People that are moving in on you as a fire team. And your stuck loading an empty mag in the middle of this. Your training should focus on locating, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver. To repel the enemy assault by fire and close combat.(mission of the Marine Corps Rifle Squad) This can be broken down to why this is important another time.

Lets focus on the military real quick, something that makes them effective. Every firearm is the same, this mean mags and parts can be interchanged. So it would be better if the group you roll with all have the same firearms, say all sigs. Then empty mags become less of a concern, have a buddy toss a loaded one. To be even more effective someone or a couple of people should be designated and trained to provide support(i.e. they carry rounds and extra loaded mags) The focus should be getting the enemy, because it will probably mess up your focus if you drop a mag that you trained to catch in a real firefight. Now with that said if your covered and you can retain the empty do so. Basically this is a situation dictates thing. To me overall there will be so many moving parts and things going on that need to be trained for over catching a mag with three fingers while simultaneously inserting another mag. 

After the firefight you do the ACE report, Ammo, Casualties, and Equipment. Any speed loaded mags should be recovered.


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## bhtacticaloutdoors (Nov 17, 2013)

LiveLeak.com - Army training is tough.


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