# No one has opened this can of worms so I will



## BetrayedAmerican

Are there any others than me that think that the opening and allowing of homosexuality to become public and tolerable has a huge impact on the morality and decency in todays community. Or am I just born in the wrong era and way to conservative and way to into the teachings of my father by his father by his father and so on and so forth... I know it dates back to way back when but still I feel it is a serious burden on today's moral aspect of things when my daughter can come home and ask why it is that little jimmy has two daddys.... YUK...


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## BetrayedAmerican

Pissed off at the world today and have a dont give a shit attitude right now so if you all that follow my threads and posts dont like it then I guess I have that many less followers but I am sick of holding this in.... I needed it out as I do feel strongly against it.


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## BetrayedAmerican

Oh and dont bother putting that in a SHTF situation it wont matter if you are homosexual or not because it would... If one survives it breeds the chance of it coming back again


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## TheSurvivalistGirl

While it is not PERSONALLY my thing.. at all... I tolerate it, because every experience I have had with a homosexual has shown me that they are just people. Other than the sexual preference, they havent acted any different than anyone else I know. Pretty much, its just the way they are. I honestly think that intolerance and hatefulness is more damaging to our morality than the actual act of homosexuality. I just accept people as long as they aren't hateful and terrible... But thats just me, and thats why even when someone doesnt accept homosexuals, I am okay with that, too.


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## indie

I just don't get why it has to be flaunted. I don't give a rat's who is in your bed, but I care a whole lot if I'm forced to hear about it. Keep it behind closed doors and leave the rest of us out of your bedroom.


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## paraquack

^^^What she said^^^


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## TheSurvivalistGirl

I dont want to hear about anyone's sex life ever, either, lol.


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## TheSurvivalistGirl

Agreed.


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## Meangreen

Why did have to become a political stance? It seems that they the homosexuals want special rights and not just equal rights. They want to affect everyone around them by making demands that affect my life and my children.


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## Rigged for Quiet

TheSurvivalistGirl said:


> While it is not PERSONALLY my thing.. at all... I tolerate it, because every experience I have had with a homosexual has shown me that they are just people. Other than the sexual preference, they havent acted any different than anyone else I know. Pretty much, its just the way they are. I honestly think that intolerance and hatefulness is more damaging to our morality than the actual act of homosexuality. I just accept people as long as they aren't hateful and terrible... But thats just me, and thats why even when someone doesnt accept homosexuals, I am okay with that, too.





indie said:


> I just don't get why it has to be flaunted. I don't give a rat's who is in your bed, but I care a whole lot if I'm forced to hear about it. Keep it behind closed doors and leave the rest of us out of your bedroom.


I think the ladies have nailed it. I've always found it interesting that conservatives will rant for hours, myself included, about how the self annoited left and big government seems to have the audacity to tell us what is good, bad, right, wrong, for us but will turn right around and do the same on the sexual preference issue.

I don't give a damn who someone sleeps with, but for pete's sake does it have to be the defining characteristic of someon'e life? It just becomes so one dimensional, and quite frankly, boring when all you know about a person is that they are "gay".


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## Rigged for Quiet

Meangreen said:


> Why did have to become a political stance? It seems that they the homosexuals want special rights and not just equal rights. They want to affect everyone around them by making demands that affect my life and my children.


I think it was in the playbook they borrowed. ::shrugs::


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## BetrayedAmerican

Didn't know how deeply spread this garbage has been instilled into the peoples minds... At one point in time people knew how bad it was and those found guilty were stoned to death realizing the demoralizing and just plain old nastiness of it... Looks like it is even accepted here... Wish I could just delete this thread.... Was hopping to find another answer.


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## TheSurvivalistGirl

Back in the day, they also stoned and killed people for divorce and women for speaking up...

But, you know...


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## TheSurvivalistGirl

Silverbullet said:


> Damn it, and I was just about to post about losing my virginity in the back seat of a 1978 Ford F-150 Supercab!


Hahahaha, awesome


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## TheSurvivalistGirl

BetrayedAmerican said:


> Didn't know how deeply spread this garbage has been instilled into the peoples minds... At one point in time people knew how bad it was and those found guilty were stoned to death realizing the demoralizing and just plain old nastiness of it... Looks like it is even accepted here... Wish I could just delete this thread.... Was hopping to find another answer.


Also, people were saying the exact same thing about women's voting rights... Just different times, it will be okay.


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## pharmer14

To me the discussion is about several different political arguments.

I echo others... I don't care who you're in bed with.... But I say that with 2 conditions:

1. Marriage is also a religious institution. The right of a church to say "We view your behavior as sinful." needs to be protected. There are already cases across the pond in England of the Anglican church being sued for refusing to marry a homosexual couple, so don't tell me the government won't eventually try to force churches here to do so.

2. Marriage should be left up to the states as it is not mentioned in the constitution. For this reason I disagree with half of the SCOTUS ruling from last year, but would vote in favor of gay marriage on a ballot referendum and would have no qualms voting for a politician who supports it for state legislature.


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## techtony

1. Homosexuals that I know (me being one myself), do not flaunt it as you claim. Just because I call my partner my partner does not mean we are flaunting it. You say your husband and wife why cant we mention the person we love same as you? I know very few gay men and women who give a play by play on their sexual escapades. I do however hear men at work complain about the inadequacy of oral or anal sex from their wives alll the time. But if I were to do that I would be flaunting it as you put it. Not once have I approached someone off the street to tell them I am gay and how they have to accept me, but I do get approached all the tkme by religious people tellling me I am going to hell and yes I have been spit at, punched, my car set ablaze all because I decided to have a drink at (heaven forbid) a gay bar. 

As for the politics of it, people are all up in arms over the marriage thing. I used to not care until something affected me personally. Imagine your wife in the hospital after a horrible car accident, and your inlaws hate you.... they ban u from seeing her in her lsst moments. They bury her against her wishes to be cremated, they ransack your home and then take posession of it and kick you out of hour home you helped pay for for the past 8 years. They then sold that house and kept the profit. You would be pissed..... the djfference is even without a will if we were married none of it wohld have happened. But because we were not, I suffered... all at the same tkme being called a ****** by people who did not speak to their son and had nothing to do with him.... until he died and the state said "sorry, we cant help you you were not on the deed and there was no will and we cannot accept your relationship" so I got screwed. Think you had a bad day... put yourself in that siyuation. 

If pelple accept me fine, if they dont fine too, but if you were on fire i would not piss on you to put the fire out. We all need to realize that people are peolle and they should all be treated with respect... and that also means stop blaming gay people for all your problems.


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## Boss Dog

It has definitely helped to put our national morals into a tailspin, but like some others have said; They are for the most part just regular people heading in the wrong direction. It is my duty to witness to them, not beat them over the head but; I also cannot fellowship with them while they are in open sin. I won't knowingly entertain or enter into business with them.


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## indie

Silverbullet said:


> Damn it, and I was just about to post about losing my virginity in the back seat of a 1978 Ford F-150 Supercab!


Oh, wait! In a Ford, you say? <all ears> :lol:


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## jimb1972

I don't care who anyone is screwing (except politicians and that's only because they are usually screwing me) I think sex is something you should learn about from your parents, friends, and ultimately in the back seat of a car or on someones couch. The schools and politicians should stay out of it entirely. I do not think gays are responsible for the decline of morality, they are just generally aligned with the commie bastards who are.


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## tango

Homosexuality is NOT a choice. Think about it--- would anyone choose that??
They are among us, like it or not.
If it does not directly effect you and yours, why worry about it?
Yes, there is a financial issue that will eventually effect us all.


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## scramble4a5

indie said:


> I just don't get why it has to be flaunted. I don't give a rat's who is in your bed, but I care a whole lot if I'm forced to hear about it. Keep it behind closed doors and leave the rest of us out of your bedroom.


Exactly. I could not have said it any better.


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## ekim

Silverbullet said:


> Damn it, and I was just about to post about losing my virginity in the back seat of a 1978 Ford F-150 Supercab!


What was his name????????? j/k:mrgreen:


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## lgustavus81

This is a subject that I'm a bit familiar with and I've felt a lot of ways about it. At the moment I have quite a few female friends that live the lesbian lifestyle. They don't act or talk any different than my wife does and I go and hang out with them quite frequently. There is a couple that even went to Disney World with my family last year for our vacation with my 9yr old daughter who was 8 at the time. None of them act out of place in any way and my daughter is usually with me when we hang out. They do have male gay friends as well and I've never had any issues with them either. I don't mind the choices ppl make for themselves as they have no impact on how I live my life or raise my own family.


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## ekim

Silverbullet said:


> His name was Tyrone, and he was a kind and gentle lover...wait, what?!?!? No, I meant her name was Johanna!


I heard that Tyrone was telling Johanna that Meshell told NOS MO KING that it wasn't what's his face butt really his brothers boyfriends sister that just looks macho and does steroids big time........ is that true?????


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## PrepConsultant

I have said it before and I'll say it again. I don't care if you want to smoke a pole or not.. What you do in your bedroom is none of my business! The thing that gets me is why does it have to be flaunted??? I like women! I'm not out doing parades and screamin from the rooftop that I like box!! It is my business. I never understood the 'flaming" part of it either! We have all seen them, there is a grown man acting like a woman. Dressing like a woman and prancing around like a dumbass!! Are they really like that or is it just for show?? Personally, i think it is show!!! My fiance watches survivor and there was this gay guy on there that I wanted to smack in the ****in head with a hammer!! I mean I just HATED him and was hoping he would fall and break his neck or something!!


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## alterego

As goes the morality of the country so goes the country. Your government is ****ing you in the ass right now. Soon they will pull your hair. You get what you deserve. The degradation of our society is well under way.


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## Meangreen

TheSurvivalistGirl said:


> Also, people were saying the exact same thing about women's voting rights... Just different times, it will be okay.


Ya and that's how we got Bill Clinton and Obama! Damn women voters!


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## ekim

Meangreen said:


> Ya and that's how we got Bill Clinton and Obama! Damn women voters!


Don't forget "MonOca", but I heard she was all lip service.


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## Meangreen

ekim said:


> Don't forget "MonOca", but I heard she was all mouth.


I heard she isn't a democrat anymore because she said they left a bad taste in her mouth.


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## ekim

Ok, we should get back on the proper topic.


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## Titan6

I treat all as human beings first.. I don't judge anyone's sexuality nor do i care.. ill leave that to GOD he/she is the only one qualified...I don't associate with Gay people nor do i have any friends that are Gay..If i seen a Gay person hurt on the side of the road and they needed help I would help they are fellow human beings...I don't agree with it or do I accept it..Just my feelings about it.


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## techtony

No, gay men do not act like women, unless they are a drag queen. which is mostly for entertainment but we see them like people on this board see doomsday preppers we are mainly embarassed by them. 

I look and act like a lumberjack.... stereotypes are not always accurate.


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## Inor

TheSurvivalistGirl said:


> Also, people were saying the exact same thing about women's voting rights... Just different times, it will be okay.


Well, if you compare when the country started down the progressive path and when women gained the right to vote... Just sayin'. :?


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## indie

Meangreen said:


> Ya and that's how we got Bill Clinton and Obama! Damn women voters!





Inor said:


> Well, if you compare when the country started down the progressive path and when women gained the right to vote... Just sayin'. :?


That's a whole 'nother can of worms. Better start a new thread while I get the bitch pills and popcorn. :lol:


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## pharmer14

techtony said:


> 1. Homosexuals that I know (me being one myself), do not flaunt it as you claim. Just because I call my partner my partner does not mean we are flaunting it.


I can't speak for the person you were responding to, but for me personally as a single guy, even heterosexuals get on my nerves flaunting their relationships and happiness... I don't discriminate against gays there for sure... straight couples being all happy and mushy/gushy etc really annoys me sometimes...

Maybe that's just because I'm a grumpy single guy...


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## Inor

indie said:


> That's a whole 'nother can of worms. Better start a new thread while I get the bitch pills and popcorn. :lol:


Wait a minute. I will shout out to Mrs Inor to fire up her computer if we are going down this path. This could get fun, until I end up sleeping in the garage.


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## bigdogbuc

Meangreen said:


> Why did have to become a political stance? It seems that they the homosexuals want special rights and not just equal rights. They want to affect everyone around them by making demands that affect my life and my children.


I have to agree. I don't believe that any group should receive special rights simply because they are this or that. Let alone demand them. I also believe that they should be safe to live that life as long as they aren't hurting anyone. I don't believe they should be targeted, harassed or beaten up because of it. Anymore than a civilized society allows someone to be attacked because of the color of their skin.

What you have to understand is that even though homosexuals are a small minority, they are a majority voting group, as in per capita, there are more of them registered to vote and politically active than other "groups", a very, very high percentage of them. And politicians "want" their votes.

I don't agree with homosexuality, but I don't disagree with it. Like other's, I don't care what or who is in your bedroom, or what goes on there (as long as it's consenting adults or of legal consenting age). But I have no desire to watch two men kiss or hold hands. Two girls, for seem reason, seems to be okay with me though. As long as they're at least semi-hot. :grin:

However, since going to work for a school district, my views have softened quite a bit. I was an ardent "anti-homosexual" supporter. I did not believe they should be married, I did not believe in "Domestic Partnerships". I still do not believe they should have special protection under the law (goes for everyone regardless). But I guess there is a reason for everything we do, every lesson we learn. I have gay and lesbian students. We have a school sponsored "Gay & Straight Alliance". I have helped them in fund raisers in the past by allowing my head to be spray painted at assemblies. And they are wonderful young men and women, a little strange at times, sort of weird other times, but some of the kindest, most genuinely loving people I have ever met who are loyal friends to each other, and those who will be loyal back. And my job is to protect them, regardless of their "lifestyle" and it has caused me to re-evaluate my position on their "lifestyle".

It's their business, it's their thing, and who am I to judge? After all, I am a "crazy prepper".


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## Meangreen

techtony said:


> No, gay men do not act like women, unless they are a drag queen. which is mostly for entertainment but we see them like people on this board see doomsday preppers we are mainly embarassed by them.
> 
> I look and act like a lumberjack.... stereotypes are not always accurate.


OK have you been to a gay parade? I grew up in San Diego and every bad stereotype is in your face and on display each year with the gay pride week and parade. Would you bring children to a gay parade? Very large parts of the gay society are good people, but an even larger part are a political progressive group that is targeting the conservative people's way of life. I have a gay brother and I understand how tough it can be and gays should have all the same rights as every other American. It seems that the political fight for gay rights is being used by the progressives to target America's very foundations.


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## Deebo

Very much a can of worms, and I feel for you Betrayed American, It is not that we are against anyone rights to do what they want, resonable, but we were raised different, thats just a fact of life.
We were taught from a very young age that it is wrong to be gay. We cant just change our roots. Does that make it right? Does that make it acceptable? I dont know. 
The "fluanting" and openness may be less to someone else, but a "big slap in your face", and I understand. 
I will not judge you, for your feelings and your beliefs are yours.
I can add, that I have always, always, been very interested in asking questions and gathering knowlegde from gays and lesbians. Not sexual knowledge, but age identification, when they first realized they were different.
Working with huge numbers of people, I have probably "quizzed" over a hundred gay, lesbian or bisexuals. 
Almost all of them "just knew" as long as they could remember being that way. They compare it as not a choice, just the way "they are, that they were made that way". A few have even asked me, when did I know I was starit, and I claimed as long as I can remember, I knew and loved girls, flirting, getting in trouble, chasing girls, getting chased by girls. I didn't, one day make a decision, I was just born that way.
I hope this helps, I dont know tha It will, but as a person, sometimes we just have to "look away". Im sorry brother.


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## Meangreen

Deebo said:


> Very much a can of worms, and I feel for you Betrayed American, It is not that we are against anyone rights to do what they want, resonable, but we were raised different, thats just a fact of life.
> We were taught from a very young age that it is wrong to be gay. We cant just change our roots. Does that make it right? Does that make it acceptable? I dont know.
> The "fluanting" and openness may be less to someone else, but a "big slap in your face", and I understand.
> I will not judge you, for your feelings and your beliefs are yours.
> I can add, that I have always, always, been very interested in asking questions and gathering knowlegde from gays and lesbians. Not sexual knowledge, but age identification, when they first realized they were different.
> Working with huge numbers of people, I have probably "quizzed" over a hundred gay, lesbian or bisexuals.
> Almost all of them "just knew" as long as they could remember being that way. They compare it as not a choice, just the way "they are, that they were made that way". A few have even asked me, when did I know I was starit, and I claimed as long as I can remember, I knew and loved girls, flirting, getting in trouble, chasing girls, getting chased by girls. I didn't, one day make a decision, I was just born that way.
> I hope this helps, I dont know tha It will, but as a person, sometimes we just have to "look away". Im sorry brother.


When my brother came out of the closet I asked him when he knew he was gay and he said, "When did you know you were straight?"


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## kevincali

I have gay friends. I have black friends. I have Asian friends. I have Mexican friends, etc. 

Everyone bleeds red. 

But regarding gays in public. I shouldn't have to be subjected to two same sex people getting their jollies off. I shouldn't HAVE to look the opposite way. I'm in public. I am free to look around and not put blinders on. 

Otherwise, do as you wish in private, and all is well. 

Seems most gay people are the "look at me!!!!!" crowd anyway. At least round here.


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## Arizona Infidel

The normalization of abhorrent sexual behavior happened during the Roman Empire also. We are traveling down a predictable path. 
History repeats.


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## Deebo

just as an update, the squirells I have been eating were harvested by a woman, who is dating another woman at our work. I lean on the both of them constantly, as they are two of my very best workers. The squirrels still taste the same, just saying.
I am not here to judge, just point out stuff, and be a voice. I feel strongly about rights, and bullying, and have I made bad mistakes, yes, I was a person that was picked on for being fat, so In turn, I found someone to pick on. It wasn't right, I cant change that.
a can of worms is a great way to think of it. Another way would be to wonder if someone was a real asset to your group, a dinamo at safety and security, highly trained at everything but openly gay. Would you let your life be dependant on him? 
Serious preppers question.


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## Arizona Infidel

No. I wouldn't trust him/her. Homosexuality is a mental disorder and I don't trust the judgement of someone who has a mental disorder.


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## indie

If we're serious about equality, then it shouldn't be an issue: black/white, gay/straight, male/female, none of that matters. If he wants to be an asset to the group, he won't be focused on telling everyone his sexual orientation, which is what I assume you mean by "openly gay." It's only an issue when one of the parties involved makes it an issue. Sexual orientation surely wouldn't be on my checklist to sort out prospective groupies, but if I'm talking to someone and they feel the need to "come out" and tell me they're gay, I'd be more inclined to walk away, because then they're trying to make it into an issue.


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## inceptor

Arizona Infidel said:


> The normalization of abhorrent sexual behavior happened during the Roman Empire also. We are traveling down a predictable path.
> History repeats.


The fact is that nearly all Roman soldiers were either gay or bi. People should learn from history.

I remember when gay meant happy. I remember when *** was a cigarette. I remember when ****** was a measure of wood.

Of course I remember when people actually showed respect for others in public. I remember when if you got in trouble at school, you also were in trouble at home. I remember when the 2 worst things that could happen to you at school was to get paddled and get into a fist fight on the playground. I remember when a knife was considered a tool.

BA is correct in that the more we lower our morals and values, the more lenient society becomes. A lenient society is an excuse society. "Oh that person who killed your family member had a tough childhood and grew up poor. They just couldn't help themselves and we need to go easy on them." Dr. Spock decided that discipline for children is evil. Now we have kids beating up teachers, parents suing teachers and school systems because a child is told that's bad behavior. Now we expel kids from school for making a crude paper gun and one kid was expelled for having a toy gun at home.

The more tolerant we become, the lower we sink in the mud.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Matthew 7:3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

I am about as far from perfect as you can get. But I do believe I have a very large plank and not in a position to judge others. I leave that for God.

People can say what they want but I believe what God laid out in the Bible is a good moral code. The farther we stray from that, the lower we sink. Period.


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## kevincali

Deebo said:


> just as an update, the squirells I have been eating were harvested by a woman, who is dating another woman at our work. I lean on the both of them constantly, as they are two of my very best workers. The squirrels still taste the same, just saying.
> I am not here to judge, just point out stuff, and be a voice. I feel strongly about rights, and bullying, and have I made bad mistakes, yes, I was a person that was picked on for being fat, so In turn, I found someone to pick on. It wasn't right, I cant change that.
> a can of worms is a great way to think of it. Another way would be to wonder if someone was a real asset to your group, a dinamo at safety and security, highly trained at everything but openly gay. Would you let your life be dependant on him?
> Serious preppers question.


Yes I would let my life be dependent on him.

He isn't less of a person or human being.

But the time I am around him, hopefully he understands that its all business. We're are a team to survive. Nothing more nothing less.

My gay friends love to be around me. I just asked early on to keep their flamboyance to a minimum. Would I stop hanging about with them if they started acting like a diva? Probably not. They are expressing themselves. Can't hate a person for that.

And yes. A gay friend is a loyal friend. One of my gay friends would get up in the middle of the night if called to bring me a gallon of gas if I ran out 20 miles away. Can't say that for my other friends.

BTW I am NOT pro gay. I'm pro PERSON. But I really do NOT like people. People have to earn my trust. You don't just walk into my life and think because you know my name, we are friends. It's actions that earn it. If they are gay, black, white, deaf, Mexican, etc, it doesn't matter. A friend is a friend, undefined by the color of their skin, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc. It's part of the friendship package


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## Inor

kevincali said:


> Yes I would let my life be dependent on him.
> 
> He isn't less of a person or human being.
> 
> But the time I am around him, hopefully he understands that its all business. We're are a team to survive. Nothing more nothing less.
> 
> My gay friends love to be around me. I just asked early on to keep their flamboyance to a minimum. Would I stop hanging about with them if they started acting like a diva? Probably not. They are expressing themselves. Can't hate a person for that.
> 
> And yes. A gay friend is a loyal friend. One of my gay friends would get up in the middle of the night if called to bring me a gallon of gas if I ran out 20 miles away. Can't say that for my other friends.
> 
> BTW I am NOT pro gay. I'm pro PERSON. But I really do NOT like people. People have to earn my trust. You don't just walk into my life and think because you know my name, we are friends. It's actions that earn it. If they are gay, black, white, deaf, Mexican, etc, it doesn't matter. A friend is a friend, undefined by the color of their skin, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc. It's part of the friendship package


You had me nodding my head and I was just about to click the "like" link, until you brought up political affiliation. Political affiliation is a big deal to me because that is 100% choice and it tells me a LOT about the character of somebody. Anyone that would support democrats or worse socialists is a looter and I do not want anything to do with them.

Besides, even if I were open to having liberal friends, it is really hard to move the relationship much past the initial introduction phase when I cannot help myself from punching them in their stupid monkey faces.


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## kevincali

Inor said:


> You had me nodding my head and I was just about to click the "like" link, until you brought up political affiliation. Political affiliation is a big deal to me because that is 100% choice and it tells me a LOT about the character of somebody. Anyone that would support democrats or worse socialists is a looter and I do not want anything to do with them.
> 
> Besides, even if I were open to having liberal friends, it is really hard to move the relationship much past the initial introduction phase when I cannot help myself from punching them in their stupid monkey faces.


I included political affiliation because I remember a saying.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

I know where I stand. I don't need someone telling me what view to take. But I do talk to other people that have views differently than mine. While I don't agree with them, I do believe they have a right to think what they want. Some have even learned from me and changed their views. Am I right in my views? Probably not. Am I wrong? Probably not. I don't support dems or repubs 

Plus I like having a face to face civil debate. Not so much on forums. I'm not articulate enough to properly say what I mean. But I have found that a nice calm debate in person is better.

Gotta know the enemy 

Heck. 2 of my friends are jehovas witness. I openly question their faith in a friendly manner, face to face with them. I'm always asking questions about their religion. Will I convert? No way. But I do learn about WHY they follow their faith. Same with Catholics, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. yes I have friends in all those faiths. I don't agree with them fully. But I don't put them down. Same with political affiliation. I don't agree. I ask questions, I pick their brains, but I don't tell them off. They have to wake up on their own. Can't force them. Like a crack addict. They've gotta WANT to change. They've gotta have their own wake up.

But I digress.


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## BetrayedAmerican

I have come to the realization that the can of worms I opened up had not been presented before because of this very reason. So I hereby bid everyone a farewell and best regards in their life... There is no place in this forum or this world right now for my kind... To be stuck in the old ways and to still follow that... I guess that is why they call it the old ways... 

Thank you all for your support and kindness and I hope with what little information that I had that you all will be better informed or at least have some good prepping ideas...

BetrayedAmerican 

Signing off.

God bless YOU ALL!!!!


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## Deebo

BetrayedAmerican said:


> I have come to the realization that the can of worms I opened up had not been presented before because of this very reason. So I hereby bid everyone a farewell and best regards in their life... There is no place in this forum or this world right now for my kind... To be stuck in the old ways and to still follow that... I guess that is why they call it the old ways...
> 
> Thank you all for your support and kindness and I hope with what little information that I had that you all will be better informed or at least have some good prepping ideas...
> 
> BetrayedAmerican
> 
> Signing off.
> 
> God bless YOU ALL!!!!


I hope, truly hope, that you will reconsider your leaving, but You have the right to do as you please.
Yes, some of us feel like the old ways are gone, but if your still openminded, still reading this post, take Saturday and go to a "drill competition" or a school wrestling match, and see that there are still some great young kids out there, and that they are the future. 
I have zero military experience, and I feel you have been throu hell, but if you ever EVER need to just type away, or even speak on a phone, I will message you my information.
GODBLESS YOU. THANK YOU.
donnie


----------



## techtony

Well no one is going to change anyones mind on here. I am quite frankly shocked at some peoples ignorance, their stereotyping, their deep rooted hatred of gay people and some peoples comically misguided "principals". People I thought of highly on this board proved in this post that they are someone I would not trust if my life was on the line. This underscores a preppers principal...... prepare for yourself first and only. 

I knew a preppers forum would be out there, I was expecting a level of conspiracy theorists, some backwards thinking and a lot of hermits. But hateful, stuck in the 50s mentality I was not expecting. 

Ive opened my eyes and to the OP..... thank you for shedding a light on the issues with some of the people on this board, yourself included.


----------



## Inor

techtony said:


> Well no one is going to change anyones mind on here. I am quite frankly shocked at some peoples ignorance, their stereotyping, their deep rooted hatred of gay people and some peoples comically misguided "principals". People I thought of highly on this board proved in this post that they are someone I would not trust if my life was on the line. This underscores a preppers principal...... prepare for yourself first and only.
> 
> I knew a preppers forum would be out there, I was expecting a level of conspiracy theorists, some backwards thinking and a lot of hermits. But hateful, stuck in the 50s mentality I was not expecting.
> 
> Ive opened my eyes and to the OP..... thank you for shedding a light on the issues with some of the people on this board, yourself included.


We are what we are sir. I apologize that we do not live up to your expectations.


----------



## Prepadoodle

Gay couples can't reproduce, but don't die as soon as they do gay stuff. So it's obvious that nature tolerates homosexuality but doesn't encourage it.

As far as it being against religious "law"... this isn't a theocracy. Judging people for violations of God laws isn't my job, it's God's.

I'm a part of nature, not apart from nature. If nature allows it, I accept it. I can only change what's possible to change, which mostly means myself. Live right and be an example for others to follow. That's all any of use can do. Trying to impose one's moral values on others is generally a waste of what little time each of us has upon this Earth. Personally, I choose to spend my time more wisely.


----------



## tirednurse

PrepConsultant said:


> I have said it before and I'll say it again. I don't care if you want to smoke a pole or not.. What you do in your bedroom is none of my business! The thing that gets me is why does it have to be flaunted??? I like women! I'm not out doing parades and screamin from the rooftop that I like box!! It is my business. I never understood the 'flaming" part of it either! We have all seen them, there is a grown man acting like a woman. Dressing like a woman and prancing around like a dumbass!! Are they really like that or is it just for show?? Personally, i think it is show!!! My fiance watches survivor and there was this gay guy on there that I wanted to smack in the ****in head with a hammer!! I mean I just HATED him and was hoping he would fall and break his neck or something!!


Know exactly what your talking about! Ugh hate that


----------



## tirednurse

BetrayedAmerican said:


> Are there any others than me that think that the opening and allowing of homosexuality to become public and tolerable has a huge impact on the morality and decency in todays community. Or am I just born in the wrong era and way to conservative and way to into the teachings of my father by his father by his father and so on and so forth... I know it dates back to way back when but still I feel it is a serious burden on today's moral aspect of things when my daughter can come home and ask why it is that little jimmy has two daddys.... YUK...


I don't agree with it either and feel like others that the worst part is it being shoved down our throats. Gay or not I don't want to know what your doing when nobody should be watching! If you realy love someone then this is a private act between each other that has nothing to do with the outside world so keep it that way. 
Our being politically correct has allowed these types of things to be forced into our lives and tolerated. Even if we know its wrong we are cowered into accepting it and not saying anything against it. we are so worried that someone is going to be offended that we don't have to balls to stand up for what is right anymore. murder your babies anyone? legalize pot? 
our country was supposed to be founded on biblical values, not twisted bible verses to suit our own needs and only when we want to use the bible in the first place. "In God we trust"? more like "We twist our God"

I will always treat every one equally no matter what choices they make in life, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do.


----------



## retired guard

Gay unions with legal status their business. Marriage I consider a religious act so don't invade my religion. Insurance benefits social security tax penalties etc. You form the legal partnership you take what comes with it.


----------



## Fuzzee

I could really care less about someone's sexual preference as long as their not shoving it in my face and flaunting it in public. Sadly that's not the case too many times with gays and I'd like to smack them in their faces. I don't want to see straight couples slobbering over each other in public either though and certainly not more. This country has been forced to deal with the gay situation to the point of them flaunting it way too much. The country needs the shit to hit the fan hard really and this country straighten itself out. I'm not saying going on a gay killing spree when it does, but when the dust flys, people better get their act together with their manners and how they act around and towards others or their going to get their head smashed in. Of course many deserve to and most gays did vote for Obama which is pretty much a smashing offense right there.


----------



## Meangreen

Gay marriage or religious freedom, you can’t have both.


----------



## Fuzzee

Prepadoodle said:


> Gay couples can't reproduce, but don't die as soon as they do gay stuff. So it's obvious that nature tolerates homosexuality but doesn't encourage it.
> 
> As far as it being against religious "law"... this isn't a theocracy. Judging people for violations of God laws isn't my job, it's God's.
> 
> I'm a part of nature, not apart from nature. If nature allows it, I accept it. I can only change what's possible to change, which mostly means myself. Live right and be an example for others to follow. That's all any of use can do. Trying to impose one's moral values on others is generally a waste of what little time each of us has upon this Earth. Personally, I choose to spend my time more wisely.


Most gays these days have full blown AIDS actually and left without the cocktail of drugs that keep them healthy, they will die off quite fast when shtf. So nature actually is only so tolerate and it's another case of our modern society going against the natural order of things.


----------



## slewfoot

IMHO I could care less if someone is gay straight or somewhere in between. I dislike anyone trying there best to push their religious beliefs down my throat.


----------



## roy

Bein' born queer is about as immoral as bein' born male or female. I'm sure glad is was born likin' wimmen.


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## slewfoot

My father use to say two things a man should avoid, arguing religion and politics cause your friend will become your enemy.


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## TheSurvivalistGirl

I just think that humans, in general, get respect as long as they aren't doing something harmful to someone else. Two guys or girls banging isn't harming me or anyone else, lol. Let them do their thang! Everyone is different and as long as it isnt directly affecting me, I do not give a rip. 

This is a super heated topic that obviously has a lot of feelings involved.


----------



## slewfoot

rickfromillinois said:


> Let me try to understand the line of thinking of some.....If the SHTF there is going to be a need of people that you can trust and rely on. So if you or one of your family gets sick or is hurt, you wouldn't go to a Gay Doctor? How about a Black one? Hispanic? A Woman Doctor? I you want to exclude people who you will associate with or rely upon because of who the sleep with (as long as they are adults), their race, or their gender, then good luck to you. Frankly YOU are someone that I would want to stay away from. My great-great-grandmother was Native American so obviously you wouldn't want to have anything to do with a "mix-breed" such as myself either. Stick with those who are racially pure but only the same race as you of course, have the exact same religion, because although YOU are Christian, obviously those Catholics/Baptists/Methodists/Lutherans/etc aren't, those who don't have the exact political views that you do, and of course stay away from those terrible ***/*****/lesboes/ what ever you sick name you call them. It was a "GOOD THING" that they were stoned/hung/burned at the stake in the past? Really? That's what you want to go back to? Like I said, stay away from me.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## TheSurvivalistGirl

Did you know that homosexuality exists in every species on Earth and homophobia only exists in our species? So, obviously, its happening and is natural. I just do not understand how people boinking is any of anyone's business lol.


----------



## slewfoot

Lets let this thread die and move back to what we are all here to discuss.


----------



## PrepConsultant

BetrayedAmerican said:


> I have come to the realization that the can of worms I opened up had not been presented before because of this very reason. So I hereby bid everyone a farewell and best regards in their life... There is no place in this forum or this world right now for my kind... To be stuck in the old ways and to still follow that... I guess that is why they call it the old ways...
> 
> Thank you all for your support and kindness and I hope with what little information that I had that you all will be better informed or at least have some good prepping ideas...
> 
> BetrayedAmerican
> 
> Signing off.
> 
> God bless YOU ALL!!!!


I don't like how that was worded!! I sent you a pm.. get back with me will ya!?! Don't go doing anything STUPID!! SEMPER FI!!!


----------



## Boss Dog

rickfromillinois said:


> Let me try to understand the line of thinking of some.....If the SHTF there is going to be a need of people that you can trust and rely on. So if you or one of your family gets sick or is hurt, you wouldn't go to a Gay Doctor? How about a Black one? Hispanic? A Woman Doctor? I you want to exclude people who you will associate with or rely upon because of who the sleep with (as long as they are adults), their race, or their gender, then good luck to you. Frankly YOU are someone that I would want to stay away from. My great-great-grandmother was Native American so obviously you wouldn't want to have anything to do with a "mix-breed" such as myself either. Stick with those who are racially pure but only the same race as you of course, have the exact same religion, because although YOU are Christian, obviously those Catholics/Baptists/Methodists/Lutherans/etc aren't, those who don't have the exact political views that you do, and of course stay away from those terrible ***/*****/lesboes/ what ever you sick name you call them. It was a "GOOD THING" that they were stoned/hung/burned at the stake in the past? Really? That's what you want to go back to? Like I said, stay away from me.


Who said anything about race or gender discrimination? The OP asked a question and people responded according to their experiences and beliefs. Why are you so threatened by that? Aren't we entitled to our opinions and beliefs or should we all just cave and side with you. So now who is discriminating against who?


----------



## Meangreen

Silverbullet said:


> Please people, the horse is obviously dead, let's stop beating it! Let's get back to what this forum is actually about, prepping and surviving.


First it's gay bashing and then women bashing, now your beating a dead horse! You bastard!


----------



## indie

Tenderizing the meat. Jerky, anyone?



Meangreen said:


> First it's gay bashing and then women bashing, now your beating a dead horse! You bastard!


----------



## ekim

rickfromillinois said:


> Let me try to understand the line of thinking of some.....If the SHTF there is going to be a need of people that you can trust and rely on. So if you or one of your family gets sick or is hurt, you wouldn't go to a Gay Doctor? How about a Black one? Hispanic? A Woman Doctor? I you want to exclude people who you will associate with or rely upon because of who the sleep with (as long as they are adults), their race, or their gender, then good luck to you. Frankly YOU are someone that I would want to stay away from. My great-great-grandmother was Native American so obviously you wouldn't want to have anything to do with a "mix-breed" such as myself either. Stick with those who are racially pure but only the same race as you of course, have the exact same religion, because although YOU are Christian, obviously those Catholics/Baptists/Methodists/Lutherans/etc aren't, those who don't have the exact political views that you do, and of course stay away from those terrible ***/*****/lesboes/ what ever you sick name you call them. It was a "GOOD THING" that they were stoned/hung/burned at the stake in the past? Really? That's what you want to go back to? Like I said, stay away from me.


But there are several points that needs to be addressed, AIDS, and the spreading of that illness. We also need to wonder what happens to the children that are brought up under to same sex couples and what it "could" do to their mental well being over time. There is plenty of talk of how video games mess with children's heads, what will years of living in a situation like same sex parents and peer pressure do to them.... just asking a few questions.....


----------



## ekim

Silverbullet said:


> Please people, the horse is obviously dead, let's stop beating it! Let's get back to what this forum is actually about, prepping and surviving.


No, the horse isn't dead, regardless what the government may want people to believe.

Laws are being passed and some people say that the government is over stepping their power by going into peoples bedrooms, lives, religious beliefs and even putting some people at risk by tainting the blood banks with infected blood. Whose rights mean more, just asking questions. What was considered wrong for some many years is now the right thing to do, what will be right next that was "wrong" before?


----------



## Denton

Meangreen said:


> Why did have to become a political stance? It seems that they the homosexuals want special rights and not just equal rights. They want to affect everyone around them by making demands that affect my life and my children.


Sorry if this has already been covered, but I am feeling a time constraint so I am just bouncing off of your reply before reading further.

This society-destroying abomination has been made a political tool so that this nation can be destroyed from within.

Notice how any and everything that is against God's will is now considered acceptable? If you hold on to those things that are Biblical, if you try to rear children in a moral atmosphere, or if you know right from wrong and are adamant about doing right and standing up against wrong, you are today's bad guy.

Homosexuality, just like adultery, falls under the category of a stoning offense under the Old Covenant. Under the New, the stoning doesn't apply but it still should not be accepted. Of course, that only applies to a Christian nation, which this is not, anymore. We allowed it to be stolen, warped and perverted.

By the way, notice how the rules changed after it was stolen? Remember how they just wanted to be treated as nice humans, until they gained control? Now, Christians and their "intolerant" beliefs are not to be tolerated. Welcome to a world controlled by Satan. You will accept his plan or you will be persecuted.

For you who are Christians with an understanding of what is coming, this is not surprising. For those of you who are not, I pray you sit up, pay attention and seek your only way out. Better to be persecuted in His name than go along. You don't want to go along - to the final destination.


----------



## Denton

By the way - Wow! I might be able to read this thread tomorrow as it will take a weekend to go through it. You folks have been busy on the keybooard!


----------



## Prepadoodle

Maybe gays should be stoned, as was suggested earlier.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


----------



## Meangreen

Prepadoodle said:


> Maybe gays should be stoned, as was suggested earlier.
> 
> Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


Are you saying we should all get stoned!?!


----------



## Denton

Prepadoodle said:


> Maybe gays should be stoned, as was suggested earlier.
> 
> Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


Wrong century. Standing against an abomination and reaching out to those in dire need of salvation are not the same thing. Yes, I know you are being tongue in cheek, by the way.

We should have protected our culture by standing against the assault while pursuing the Great Commission instead of falling into the middle class trap of pursuing pleasure. We fell victim to the Father of Lies. It is our fault, as that old saying of The Devil Made Me Do It is one of his lies. He can't make us do anything. All he can do is spread lies sprinkled with half truths so we will believe them.


----------



## Verteidiger

TheSurvivalistGirl said:


> Did you know that homosexuality exists in every species on Earth and homophobia only exists in our species? So, obviously, its happening and is natural. I just do not understand how people boinking is any of anyone's business lol.


Okay, I am calling BS on this one.

Sexual dimorphism exists in nature for a reason. It is so the opposite sex can find a mate and procreate, thereby preserving the continuing existence of the species.

I spend a lot of time in the woods. I have been a naturalist and have studied animal life for my entire adult life.

I have never seen homosexual sex between animals, period.

If a grizzly bear tries to mount another grizzly bear, it is a dominance display that results in a fight, sometimes to the death.

This type of statement (unsupported) is what I find most egregious about this type of debate.

Provide proof of the statement that is scientific and credible, or quit espousing ideas that are being perpetuated by those with a secret agenda.

If you believe this, it is time for you to spend more time out in nature....

I have never read such BS in my life. Utter propaganda.

It is the Big Lie - repeat it often enough and people begin to believe it is true.

Unfreakingbelievable.


----------



## rice paddy daddy

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7:13-14/NIV

And that is all I have to say about this thread.


----------



## TheSurvivalistGirl

Well then, I thought we were preppers and survivalist!

Not self-righteuous religious nuts?


----------



## TheSurvivalistGirl

The most active threads on this website are the most ridiculous.

What a crock of shit.

Bye, guys.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

TheSurvivalistGirl said:


> Well then, I thought we were preppers and survivalist!
> 
> Not self-righteuous religious nuts?


so being a prepper and survivalist now requires acceptance as "*normal*" abhorrent deviant sexual acts of people with a mental disorder?
Fundamental change.


----------



## fathersforfreedom

BetrayedAmerican said:


> the opening and allowing of homosexuality to become public and tolerable
> YUK...


I genuinely feel your concern. However, sorry to say but...

You aint seen nothing yet.

Remember a time when "divorce" was frowned upon? How is it viewed today? Exactly.

The majority's diluted view towards homosexuality comes next. (I have nothing against the people, just the practice)

This is the continuation of the moral decay in today's society. Fact.

It wasn't too long when such behaviour was frowned on by the majority, its now ok.

Poor children who have to work this out for themselves.

What's next then?

What is frowned upon today that will slowly be viewed as the norm tomorrow?

What depraved behaviour is actually just...

*BEING STEWED TODAY, FOR A SERVING TOMORROW!*

Stewed for the majority to also accept in the not too distant future? Its coming.

Well, I cant even see myself giving the answer. Its just horrid.

It dwarfs your can of worms.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

TheSurvivalistGirl said:


> The most active threads on this website are the most ridiculous.
> 
> What a crock of shit.
> 
> Bye, guys.


The most ridiculous threads on the forum are also the ones YOU are most active in.

This is also a crock of shit.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.


----------



## Inor

Arizona Infidel said:


> The most ridiculous threads on the forum are also the ones YOU are most active in.
> 
> This is also a crock of shit.
> 
> Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.


I guess we should go back to talking about turtles, hash signs vs pound signs, throwing poo, Ford trucks and one-legged IHOP waitresses...


----------



## Verteidiger

Everyone has the right to express their opinion.

But just because you are entitled to your own opinion, does not mean you are entitled to your own facts.

I did not challenge you, I challenged your idea. There is a difference.

I challenge people's thinking all the time. It is how we learn.

I say the notion you expressed is wrong, and asked for some authority to support it.

If you don't have any, put your big person pants on and say so.

If you do have something that could be considered proof, produce it.

But do not expect to say "homosexuality is rampant in nature" and not have someone contest the veracity (truthfulness) of that position.

I did not mean for you to take personal offense, but I do challenge the truth of that statement. 

And not for nothing, but we all have that Right. As long as we can keep it....


----------



## indie

Ah, those were the good old days <sniff sniff>



Inor said:


> I guess we should go back to talking about turtles, hash signs vs pound signs, throwing poo, Ford trucks and one-legged IHOP waitresses...


Back to business, one of the things I enjoy about this forum that keeps me coming back is the ability to have civilized discourse without the need to take it personal and turn it ugly. Keep on keepin on, guys!


----------



## Denton

TheSurvivalistGirl said:


> The most active threads on this website are the most ridiculous.
> 
> What a crock of shit.
> 
> Bye, guys.


At first blush, I figured you for a baiter. Your little thread about the political forums, for example. You aren't here to be part of our community, but to be the devisive person needed by no group. By accident, you have made a very good point that every prepper needs to to think about with regards to a community. Even though it is by accident, I thank you none the less.


----------



## Inor

Denton said:


> At first blush, I figured you for a baiter. Your little thread about the political forums, for example. You aren't here to be part of our community, but to be the devisive person needed by no group. By accident, you have made a very good point that every prepper needs to to think about with regards to a community. Even though it is by accident, I thank you none the less.


Excellent point!


----------



## Arizona Infidel

Denton said:


> At first blush, I figured you for a baiter. Your little thread about the political forums, for example. You aren't here to be part of our community, but to be the devisive person needed by no group. By accident, you have made a very good point that every prepper needs to to think about with regards to a community. Even though it is by accident, I thank you none the less.


What point was that?


----------



## Inor

Arizona Infidel said:


> What point was that?


How one divisive personality can poison the dynamic of a whole group.


----------



## techtony

Ignorant bafoon..... defined as the idiot that said most gay people have AIDS. Completely false and a very ignorant viewpoint to take. The other falsehood is that there is no homosexuality in nature... there is it has been proven thaat the animal kingdom has about the same percentage..... 10%. Also to the idiots on here that truly believe that I just need to be saved by your special magical God with his pixie dust..... I dont, but maybe you should be saved into a different religion. You need to read the bible if you claim to be an anointed christian, that bible you proclaim calls for stoning all gay people also says that if yiur son sins, then YOU should be stoned. It also says that if you act as a false prophet you be burned, so predicting what will happen to this country is a killable offense. So before you spout off hatred, religious hollier than thou BS remember your bible.... YOU are a sinner too, unless you are claiming to be mohammed or Jesus. 

And to those women on here that seem to think that gay people are shoving their lifestyle down their throat... give me an example of my lifestyle is being shoved in your face. I would also like some proof that gay people are a detriment to your annointed marriage and bratty ass kids. 

One other thing....... to the ignorant man that thinks that gay people will be naturally selected out due to aids ..... no we have always been on this earth... put here by God apparently in his image.... same as you pal. The kicker is that we do not need to reproduce to be around, straight people give birth to gay children everyday. 

Chew on that for a while ...... bunch of bigots.


----------



## jimb1972

techtony said:


> Ignorant bafoon..... defined as the idiot that said most gay people have AIDS. Completely false and a very ignorant viewpoint to take. The other falsehood is that there is no homosexuality in nature... there is it has been proven thaat the animal kingdom has about the same percentage..... 10%. Also to the idiots on here that truly believe that I just need to be saved by your special magical God with his pixie dust..... I dont, but maybe you should be saved into a different religion. You need to read the bible if you claim to be an anointed christian, that bible you proclaim calls for stoning all gay people also says that if yiur son sins, then YOU should be stoned. It also says that if you act as a false prophet you be burned, so predicting what will happen to this country is a killable offense. So before you spout off hatred, religious hollier than thou BS remember your bible.... YOU are a sinner too, unless you are claiming to be mohammed or Jesus.
> 
> And to those women on here that seem to think that gay people are shoving their lifestyle down their throat... give me an example of my lifestyle is being shoved in your face. I would also like some proof that gay people are a detriment to your annointed marriage and bratty ass kids.
> 
> One other thing....... to the ignorant man that thinks that gay people will be naturally selected out due to aids ..... no we have always been on this earth... put here by God apparently in his image.... same as you pal. The kicker is that we do not need to reproduce to be around, straight people give birth to gay children everyday.
> 
> Chew on that for a while ...... bunch of bigots.


 Um Ok, false prophecy involves the claim that your information is from god. If I say a politician is going to lie it is merely an observation of probability, not a prophecy unless I say god told me so and I am wrong.
Homosexuality is not as common in the animal world as in humans, it is very rare but the few documented cases are blown way out of proportion due to the agenda being pushed, they are also almost always not an orientation meaning the animals that do so mate with the opposite sex. As far as any hateful homophobic comments, you have to expect a certain amount of that on any internet site where people do not have to look each other in the face when statements are made. Homosexuals are not the only ones on the receiving end of discourteous comments, get over it.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

Verteidiger said:


> Okay, I am calling BS on this one.
> 
> Sexual dimorphism exists in nature for a reason. It is so the opposite sex can find a mate and procreate, thereby preserving the continuing existence of the species.
> 
> I spend a lot of time in the woods. I have been a naturalist and have studied animal life for my entire adult life.
> 
> I have never seen homosexual sex between animals, period.
> 
> If a grizzly bear tries to mount another grizzly bear, it is a dominance display that results in a fight, sometimes to the death.
> 
> This type of statement (unsupported) is what I find most egregious about this type of debate.
> 
> Provide proof of the statement that is scientific and credible, or quit espousing ideas that are being perpetuated by those with a secret agenda.
> 
> If you believe this, it is time for you to spend more time out in nature....
> 
> I have never read such BS in my life. Utter propaganda.
> 
> It is the Big Lie - repeat it often enough and people begin to believe it is true.
> 
> Unfreakingbelievable.


Since the claim was again made that homosexuality is running rampant in the animals of the wild I thought I would repost the post asking for proof to be shown.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

techtony said:


> The kicker is that we do not need to reproduce to be around, straight people give birth to gay children everyday.
> 
> Chew on that for a while ...... bunch of bigots.


 just like all other birth defects.


----------



## Boss Dog

Appears that no one's opinion will be changed by this thread, I didn't think it would. Points of view have been exchanged.
THE answer to every question is:

John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
.........................................^^^
Insert your name here, you won't hurt a thing.
Many are rebellious and will not accept it. God allows all to live the life they choose, with it's consequences.
Unsubscribed.


----------



## techtony

Dragonflies, Giraffes, Western Gulls, Penguins, African Lions, Cock of the Rock, Bonobos, Dolphins, Albatros, Rams 10 Animals That Practice Homosexuality - Listverse

What say you righteous ones about frogs, they change sex depending on if there are fewer of one sex present. When fish and frogs change gender | Eva Hayward | Indy Week

There have been documented cases in over 1500 species... most of these discoveries were made before the gay rights movement in 1969 Homosexual Animals Out of the Closet | LiveScience

But I know I know it is all a conspiracy to recruit your children, degrade the moral fabric in America and an attack on your local church. .. I completely understand


----------



## techtony

Boss Dog said:


> Appears that no one's opinion will be changed by this thread, I didn't think it would. Points of view have been exchanged.
> THE answer to every question is:
> 
> John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> .........................................^^^
> Insert your name here, you won't hurt a thing.
> Many are rebellious and will not accept it. God allows all to live the life they choose, with it's consequences.
> Unsubscribed.


No thanks, not really the type to blindly follow other flawed people. When we die .... we are worm food accept that and you will be golden with me.


----------



## tango

Damn Techtony, sensitive bitch aren't ya?


----------



## PaulS

Homosexuality is documented in any dense population of mammals from mice to chimpanzees. Some chimpanzees even practice casual sex with those members who are not yet sexually mature - usually mothers with their off-spring. Gender changes are common among amphibians. "Sexual deviancy" is only deviancy among humans, in much the same way that evil is only recognized by humans. 

There are seven genetic markers that are common among homosexuals that are uncommon among heterosexuals and bisexuals. If sex is only for procreation then my wife and I should stop and I should find a younger woman to have sex with.

If an old man and old woman are walking down the street hand-in-hand are they flaunting there sexuality? Why then is two men or two women doing the same thing flaunting their sexuality? If a pair of newlyweds share a kiss in the park where they met is that flaunting their sexuality? If it is two newly joined men or women why is it different? 

I think we need to remember that sharing love is said to be the greatest of the commandments. Love God... Love yourself... Love your neighbor... " It isn't about sex - it is about love. Love is more important than faith or hope according to the gospels. There is nothing in the gospels about who you cannot love.


----------



## techtony

tango said:


> Damn Techtony, sensitive bitch aren't ya?


Not in the slightest... asshole. Everyone proclaims here that we are supposed to be open and honest and allow others to state their opinions and we are not supposed to force our beliefs on others unless they are christian in nature right? People attack gay people, claim to be christians, that gays should be stoned because the god they worship hates gay people, gay people are birth defects, gay people are the cause of all problems in America, all gay people have aids, all gay people are pedophiles, all gay people are part of a democratic conspiracy and agenda, ohnoh and my favorite is that gay people flaunt their sexual encounters in public and wear dresses.

I can't see why anyone would take that the wrong way can you?


----------



## Verteidiger

I read through all of the examples cited as proof of homosexual conduct in animals and not one of them offer any proof such behavior exists - the articles mention genital rubbing amongst females, and other animals rubbing their genitals against other animals of the same species. That does not prove homosexuality - it proves animals rub against each other because it feels good. A bear may scratch his butt against a tree for the same exact reason.

Here is a quote from one of the cited articles:

"You can make up all kinds of stories: Oh it's for dominance, it's for this, it's for that, but when it comes down to the bottom I think it's just for sexual pleasure," Wolfe told LiveScience.

Yet, in exactly NONE of the examples given in every article offered do males of any animal species use the phallus to enter the anus of another male. And I reiterate the challenge - show me ONE example where this is true. In fact, I not only challenge you to, I defy you to find ONE....

This is just another myth being perpetuated to show homosexuality is "natural." It is part and parcel of those pursuing the homosexual agenda and it is a fabrication.

Hatching eggs laid by other flock members and rearing orphaned young is not a proof of homosexuality - it is proof that animals will try and ensure their offspring survive, AND NOTHING MORE.

If such sexual contact is so common, where are the pictures showing such contact occurs?

I have not argued about Biblical issues intentionally. But for anyone to claim the Bible does not speak to this issue, you might try starting out your research by reading the first book of the Bible, Genesis. You may have heard of it.

It is about Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.


----------



## tango

Yea, some do--


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## kevincali

Deleted


----------



## techtony

Verteidiger said:


> I read through all of the examples cited as proof of homosexual conduct in animals and not one of them offer any proof such behavior exists - the articles mention genital rubbing amongst females, and other animals rubbing their genitals against other animals of the same species. That does not prove homosexuality - it proves animals rub against each other because it feels good. A bear may scratch his butt against a tree for the same exact reason.
> 
> Here is a quote from one of the cited articles:
> 
> "You can make up all kinds of stories: Oh it's for dominance, it's for this, it's for that, but when it comes down to the bottom I think it's just for sexual pleasure," Wolfe told LiveScience.
> 
> Yet, in exactly NONE of the examples given in every article offered do males of any animal species use the phallus to enter the anus of another male. And I reiterate the challenge - show me ONE example where this is true. In fact, I not only challenge you to, I defy you to find ONE....
> 
> This is just another myth being perpetuated to show homosexuality is "natural." It is part and parcel of those pursuing the homosexual agenda and it is a fabrication.
> 
> Hatching eggs laid by other flock members and rearing orphaned young is not a proof of homosexuality - it is proof that animals will try and ensure their offspring survive, AND NOTHING MORE.
> 
> If such sexual contact is so common, where are the pictures showing such contact occurs?
> 
> I have not argued about Biblical issues intentionally. But for anyone to claim the Bible does not speak to this issue, you might try starting out your research by reading the first book of the Bible, Genesis. You may have heard of it.
> 
> It is about Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.


Thanks for the Westboro Baptist Church answer about Adam and Steve.... very original there.

As for reading the bible. I was catholic for many years, so I had enough of that book of fables and myths. I could care less what it says, just as you rejected your science book back in grade school.

I am not posting goat porn for you on this site, but a simple image search shows MANY examples. Hide your head in sand of this flat earth oh wise one, we will wake you up when it all gets better.


----------



## BetrayedAmerican

Alright so I sat down and thought about it over a bottle and have come to the conclusion that I will not be ran off nor will I leave because of a touchy subject. Especially after coming back and reading all the replies... 

Sorry to go burst all of your bubbles but I have some things to say yet again.....

People are people and that is who they are... What they are is another matter... I had just found out a guy that saved my ass over seas was gay and I had no clue until drunkenly talking to him about this forum... I got a swift kick right in the nuts all because this person would attack hell with a snowball for me and though this new found information hurts, I would do that same for him......

As for this animal thing going on... It is November 15th opening day of deer season with a rifle... I just watched a buck mount another buck in my sights just today.... Now there is an explination for this and other reasons as well that I will post here shortly....

Deer while in the rut (for those of you dont know means they are super horny and chasing doe to breed.) have so many hormones and testosterone pumping through them that it is like having a machine... One switch says eat drink and sleep the other switch is auto shut down of all functions but one MATE....... Deer as all other animals are just that, ANIMALS stupid in comparison to humans though some show exceptional skills in certain areas I am sure we can all agree that one way or another they are dumb in comparison....

As for other animals.... Dolphin, orangutan, and several others have been known to RAPE others of their species.... Now male or female.....

As far as this post goes I started it and I wish I could end it but thats not going to happen the point is this....

For those out there that dont believe in God, I am sorry you cant find the happiness joy love compassion and just down right awesome feeling to know you have someone that powerful and loving watching over you.... As for the teachings... Judge not less you be judged, absolutely..... Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.... Absolutely, do not judge me because my judge will judge us all one day that is a Mongomery gentry song lyric but it works..... The point is I am no longer going to commit sin by judging those who I believe whole heartedly are living sin but thats a choice and a matter everyone will have the chance to take up with the big guy upstairs.....

Another thing you say that god created in his own image in an attempt to bash at Christians.... God also gave free will, the one factor he will not under any circumstances toy with at all... Every single person has that will and that ability to decide so on that I fear for you that I am not a believer that people are born that way..... God would not make a creation in his image then say it is wrong.... Just something to think about.....

Again IM BACK....


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## Denton

techtony said:


> Not in the slightest... asshole. Everyone proclaims here that we are supposed to be open and honest and allow others to state their opinions and we are not supposed to force our beliefs on others unless they are christian in nature right? People attack gay people, claim to be christians, that gays should be stoned because the god they worship hates gay people, gay people are birth defects, gay people are the cause of all problems in America, all gay people have aids, all gay people are pedophiles, all gay people are part of a democratic conspiracy and agenda, ohnoh and my favorite is that gay people flaunt their sexual encounters in public and wear dresses.
> 
> I can't see why anyone would take that the wrong way can you?


Hello, bigot. You are what you claim I am to be.
You want me to be worm food, that would be golden to you. I pray the Holy Spirit works in your heart and that we meet each other in Heaven, in the presence of Father.

You were created in His image, not in the image of a dragonfly, or any other animal. You are not an insect, a worm, or a confused mammal.


----------



## Inor

BetrayedAmerican said:


> Alright so I sat down and thought about it over a bottle and have come to the conclusion that I will not be ran off nor will I leave because of a touchy subject. Especially after coming back and reading all the replies...
> 
> Sorry to go burst all of your bubbles but I have some things to say yet again.....
> 
> People are people and that is who they are... What they are is another matter... I had just found out a guy that saved my ass over seas was gay and I had no clue until drunkenly talking to him about this forum... I got a swift kick right in the nuts all because this person would attack hell with a snowball for me and though this new found information hurts, I would do that same for him......
> 
> As for this animal thing going on... It is November 15th opening day of deer season with a rifle... I just watched a buck mount another buck in my sights just today.... Now there is an explination for this and other reasons as well that I will post here shortly....
> 
> Deer while in the rut (for those of you dont know means they are super horny and chasing doe to breed.) have so many hormones and testosterone pumping through them that it is like having a machine... One switch says eat drink and sleep the other switch is auto shut down of all functions but one MATE....... Deer as all other animals are just that, ANIMALS stupid in comparison to humans though some show exceptional skills in certain areas I am sure we can all agree that one way or another they are dumb in comparison....
> 
> As for other animals.... Dolphin, orangutan, and several others have been known to RAPE others of their species.... Now male or female.....
> 
> As far as this post goes I started it and I wish I could end it but thats not going to happen the point is this....
> 
> For those out there that dont believe in God, I am sorry you cant find the happiness joy love compassion and just down right awesome feeling to know you have someone that powerful and loving watching over you.... As for the teachings... Judge not less you be judged, absolutely..... Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.... Absolutely, do not judge me because my judge will judge us all one day that is a Mongomery gentry song lyric but it works..... The point is I am no longer going to commit sin by judging those who I believe whole heartedly are living sin but thats a choice and a matter everyone will have the chance to take up with the big guy upstairs.....
> 
> Another thing you say that god created in his own image in an attempt to bash at Christians.... God also gave free will, the one factor he will not under any circumstances toy with at all... Every single person has that will and that ability to decide so on that I fear for you that I am not a believer that people are born that way..... God would not make a creation in his image then say it is wrong.... Just something to think about.....
> 
> Again IM BACK....


Welcome back boy-o. You had at least a few of us a bit nervous.


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## Verteidiger

tango said:


> Yea, some do--


Really?

Care to elaborate, or should we just take your word for it?

I ask because I ain't buying what you are trying to sell.

But I do have an open mind. And I do not know it all.

So if you have some proof that exists that you can enlighten us with, please provide it.

If I am wrong I am man enough to say so. But I have never seen it happen, ever. Never even heard that it does, until recently.

It flies in the face of everything I have ever known, but if you have proof, prove me wrong.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

BetrayedAmerican said:


> Alright so I sat down and thought about it over a bottle and have come to the conclusion that I will not be ran off nor will I leave because of a touchy subject. Especially after coming back and reading all the replies...
> 
> Sorry to go burst all of your bubbles but I have some things to say yet again.....
> 
> People are people and that is who they are... What they are is another matter... I had just found out a guy that saved my ass over seas was gay and I had no clue until drunkenly talking to him about this forum... I got a swift kick right in the nuts all because this person would attack hell with a snowball for me and though this new found information hurts, I would do that same for him......
> 
> As for this animal thing going on... It is November 15th opening day of deer season with a rifle... I just watched a buck mount another buck in my sights just today.... Now there is an explination for this and other reasons as well that I will post here shortly....
> 
> Deer while in the rut (for those of you dont know means they are super horny and chasing doe to breed.) have so many hormones and testosterone pumping through them that it is like having a machine... One switch says eat drink and sleep the other switch is auto shut down of all functions but one MATE....... Deer as all other animals are just that, ANIMALS stupid in comparison to humans though some show exceptional skills in certain areas I am sure we can all agree that one way or another they are dumb in comparison....
> 
> As for other animals.... Dolphin, orangutan, and several others have been known to RAPE others of their species.... Now male or female.....
> 
> As far as this post goes I started it and I wish I could end it but thats not going to happen the point is this....
> 
> For those out there that dont believe in God, I am sorry you cant find the happiness joy love compassion and just down right awesome feeling to know you have someone that powerful and loving watching over you.... As for the teachings... Judge not less you be judged, absolutely..... Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.... Absolutely, do not judge me because my judge will judge us all one day that is a Mongomery gentry song lyric but it works..... The point is I am no longer going to commit sin by judging those who I believe whole heartedly are living sin but thats a choice and a matter everyone will have the chance to take up with the big guy upstairs.....
> 
> Another thing you say that god created in his own image in an attempt to bash at Christians.... God also gave free will, the one factor he will not under any circumstances toy with at all... Every single person has that will and that ability to decide so on that I fear for you that I am not a believer that people are born that way..... God would not make a creation in his image then say it is wrong.... Just something to think about.....
> 
> Again IM BACK....


welcome back, I think. LOL


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## BetrayedAmerican

Inor said:


> Welcome back boy-o. You had at least a few of us a bit nervous.


I wouldn't do anything stupid if that's what you mean.. One way ticket to hell there... The thing is I am going to get back to my life as was before this whole debacle started and I am going to get into my preps find where I am weak and strong and level it off.... I will also be creating videos of things that I do to give a video guide on things.... I was going to use youtube but everyone uses it but hey maybe I could tag along I guess.....

Was thinking of a couple videos like how to build a shelter before the cold of night as it is freezing to me here already and it is like 45.... lol.... Skinning ****, and trapping using z trap dog proof traps... Things like that... A hey I am out and about doing not just reading... It sometimes gives people a better message... what do you all think.


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## Inor

BetrayedAmerican said:


> I wouldn't do anything stupid if that's what you mean.. One way ticket to hell there... The thing is I am going to get back to my life as was before this whole debacle started and I am going to get into my preps find where I am weak and strong and level it off.... I will also be creating videos of things that I do to give a video guide on things.... I was going to use youtube but everyone uses it but hey maybe I could tag along I guess.....
> 
> Was thinking of a couple videos like how to build a shelter before the cold of night as it is freezing to me here already and it is like 45.... lol.... Skinning ****, and trapping using z trap dog proof traps... Things like that... A hey I am out and about doing not just reading... It sometimes gives people a better message... what do you all think.


It sounds like an excellent idea. Living your preps is a pretty comfortable life.


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## MrsInor

Got a bunch of bacon on sale today. Going to try canning it.


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## techtony

BetrayedAmerican said:


> I wouldn't do anything stupid if that's what you mean.. One way ticket to hell there... The thing is I am going to get back to my life as was before this whole debacle started and I am going to get into my preps find where I am weak and strong and level it off.... I will also be creating videos of things that I do to give a video guide on things.... I was going to use youtube but everyone uses it but hey maybe I could tag along I guess.....
> 
> Was thinking of a couple videos like how to build a shelter before the cold of night as it is freezing to me here already and it is like 45.... lol.... Skinning ****, and trapping using z trap dog proof traps... Things like that... A hey I am out and about doing not just reading... It sometimes gives people a better message... what do you all think.


This can of worms you opened spilled over quick, but sometimes our expectations are quelled and deflated. What makes us human is that we can look at something and learn from it, like you did. I think you did a great service for starting this thread. People screamed, hollered, cried, spit and yes some people walked out. You coming back with story reminded me that we are all human and we can learn from each other. I learned that people can change, I learned that I am suprising forgiving.

So welcome back. Oh as for youtube..... that is your best bet for getting info out. That is where i go for tutorials.


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## Prepadoodle

BetrayedAmerican said:


> The point is I am no longer going to commit sin by judging those who I believe whole heartedly are living sin but thats a choice and a matter everyone will have the chance to take up with the big guy upstairs....


Bravo Betrayed. I'm not a fan of homosexuality either, but it's not my job to judge. Exercise forgiveness and compassion towards your fellow man, no matter what... as Christ taught. As I said earlier, you can only work on you and let the others walk what path they see fit to walk.


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## Arizona Infidel

Prepadoodle said:


> Bravo Betrayed. I'm not a fan of homosexuality either, but it's not my job to judge. Exercise forgiveness and compassion towards your fellow man, no matter what... as Christ taught. As I said earlier, you can only work on you and let the others walk what path they see fit to walk.


It isn't my job to judge. And people have every right to live their lives as they see fit. However, NOBODY has the right to force me to accept them or what they do. If I don't want to associate with someone who likes to drive blue cars for instance, that is my business and my decision. NOBODY has the right to force me to associate with people who drive blue cars. Same goes for someone's sexuality or race. It is my decision and my decision alone, and I don't have to justify my reason to anyone.


----------



## Verteidiger

techtony said:


> Thanks for the Westboro Baptist Church answer about Adam and Steve.... very original there.
> 
> As for reading the bible. I was catholic for many years, so I had enough of that book of fables and myths. I could care less what it says, just as you rejected your science book back in grade school.
> 
> I am not posting goat porn for you on this site, but a simple image search shows MANY examples. Hide your head in sand of this flat earth oh wise one, we will wake you up when it all gets better.


I grew up raising ruminants - what some people call goats.

I never saw any such behavior - EVER.

The dominant male goat will fight every other male in his territory to establish his right to mate when the does go into estrus.

The other males are referred to as social castrates because the dominant male won't allow them to mate.

They may engage in what biologists call mock sex, but it is not actually sex - it is a pheromone smell driven response caused by does in estrus.

Unlike some people, I don't rely on "I read it on the Internet" or "I saw it on the Internet" as proof of what happens in nature.

Face it. It does not happen.

You are gay. You like men. You like having sex with men.

If that is true, face the facts. Own what you do. Again, I do not care.

But don't try and tell us it is natural. It is what you like.

And not for nothing, but I left the Bible out for a reason.

I believe in God. My belief teaches me that I am not to judge you, nor am I to condemn you.

That is not my role. My role is to let you know that what you do and who you are is your choice, and yours alone.

Free will. You can choose any path you wish.

If you are right, and there is no God, then you are worm food.

If I am right, and there is a God, he alone will judge you.

Neither one of us will know who was right until the end of our last day.

I wish you only the best, and hope you live in peace for all of your days.

And I understand why you may feel persecuted by our society. I mean that, sincerely.

The choices we make when we are young are the decisions we must live with when we are older.

If being gay is not a choice, and you are born that way (and who am I to say) I hope you stay true to yourself.

And just as I try not to judge in the course of trying to understand, I hope you do not judge me or condemn me.

Just because I choose to love ladies and love God....


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## Arizona Infidel

Dogs have been known to hump humans legs. Does that make them human? Dogs have been known to hump stuffed animals. Does that mean they are a stuffed animal? No, it means they are animals that will hump anything. So when a homosexual compares their homosexuality to animals humping each other in the wild I guess they want us to think of them as nothing more than animals.


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## techtony

I am in the IT industry, excuse my use of the term Goat porn, in our profession we see Goat Porn on peoples computers all the time..... not goat on goat if you catch my drift. We see it on a lot of peoples computers. 

I am mot going to debate you on animals anymore.... youve obviously done your research. 

You are right, I am gay and I am.ok with it. I came out of the closet at 26 because I was tired of lying Best thing I ever did. 

As my Dad used to say.... being a man means you do the right thing always, which I intend to.keep doing. I have lived a good life and have have never harmed anyone intentionally, and I intend to stay that way.


----------



## techtony

Arizona Infidel said:


> Dogs have been known to hump humans legs. Does that make them human? Dogs have been known to hump stuffed animals. Does that mean they are a stuffed animal? No, it means they are animals that will hump anything. So when a homosexual compares their homosexuality to animals humping each other in the wild I guess they want us to think of them as nothing more than animals.


Yeah you are right, please just treat us other lowly sub humans as animals..... we win!


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## pharmer14

Guys we need to step back from the cliff here... 

Is homosexuality REALLY that bad in your mind that you couldn't look past it??? 

Would you declare the gay person you know (but don't know they're gay) who would gladly lay down his or her life for you and welcome the straight person who would be the person putting the knife in your back???

Even if you find homosexuality morally wrong, don't we have bigger fish to fry? 

My views on homosexuality are governed by my Christian faith, specifically in 2 areas:

1. Sinfulness. Do I find homosexuality sinful? Yes. But I also find pornography (with or without goats) and premarital sex sinful too... has that stopped me or you??? Will it??? Haven't we been told not to remove a splinter from our neighbor's eye without addressing the plank in our own?

2. John 13:34-35. Enough said.

techtony, know that this prepper welcomes you here... 

The only real issue I have with federal legislation on gay marriage is that there isn't any federal legislation on straight marriage. We don't go to courthouses and get federal marriage licenses for straight marriages, so I don't think we should have federal solutions for gay marriage either.


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## Arizona Infidel

techtony said:


> Yeah you are right, please just treat us other lowly sub humans as animals..... we win!


Your the one who made the comparison.


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## PaulS

When you get married you get a license that is recorded by the county, state and federal government. It provides survivor benefits, tax benefits, and certain rights to be with your spouse under extreme conditions. The same process should be true of same gender marriages. In our country (the USA) you can choose a religious or civil marriage but both require a license that is recorded. As a minister I can use a church document or the one issued by the state - they must have the same information and qualifications. The issue I have with this topic is that no government or governmental agency has the power to decide whether any two people, of age, and mental capacity can be married or not. The state decides the age of majority (the minimum age one can provide knowledgeable consent) and whether they are mentally capable of forming a legal contract. It goes further to state that they cannot be married to another at the time they get married. 

The government should never be given the power to say who can and cannot get married. You must be able to see where that kind of power could be misused.

I should state that no religion can be compelled to perform marriages contrary to the beliefs and practices of that religion. No government can force me to perform such a ceremony and neither can they prevent it.


----------



## Titan6

pharmer14 said:


> Guys we need to step back from the cliff here...
> 
> Is homosexuality REALLY that bad in your mind that you couldn't look past it???
> 
> Would you declare the gay person you know (but don't know they're gay) who would gladly lay down his or her life for you and welcome the straight person who would be the person putting the knife in your back???
> 
> Even if you find homosexuality morally wrong, don't we have bigger fish to fry?
> 
> My views on homosexuality are governed by my Christian faith, specifically in 2 areas:
> 
> 1. Sinfulness. Do I find homosexuality sinful? Yes. But I also find pornography (with or without goats) and premarital sex sinful too... has that stopped me or you??? Will it??? Haven't we been told not to remove a splinter from our neighbor's eye without addressing the plank in our own?
> 
> 2. John 13:34-35. Enough said.
> 
> techtony, know that this prepper welcomes you here...
> 
> The only real issue I have with federal legislation on gay marriage is that there isn't any federal legislation on straight marriage. We don't go to courthouses and get federal marriage licenses for straight marriages, so I don't think we should have federal solutions for gay marriage either.


Couldn't have been said any better...Well Done!!


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## bigdogbuc

techtony said:


> I am in the IT industry, excuse my use of the term Goat porn, in our profession we see Goat Porn on peoples computers all the time..... not goat on goat if you catch my drift. We see it on a lot of peoples computers.
> 
> I am mot going to debate you on animals anymore.... youve obviously done your research.
> 
> You are right, I am gay and I am.ok with it. I came out of the closet at 26 because I was tired of lying Best thing I ever did.
> 
> As my Dad used to say.... being a man means you do the right thing always, which I intend to.keep doing. I have lived a good life and have have never harmed anyone intentionally, and I intend to stay that way.


I'm okay with you being gay too TT...not that it would matter if I wasn't. :grin:


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## pharmer14

PaulS said:


> When you get married you get a license that is recorded by the county, state and federal government.


Really??? I thought it was all county and state...



> The government should never be given the power to say who can and cannot get married. You must be able to see where that kind of power could be misused.


I agree here, but the problem comes in that the government is one of the two institutions that conducts them.



> I should state that no religion can be compelled to perform marriages contrary to the beliefs and practices of that religion. No government can force me to perform such a ceremony and neither can they prevent it.


There is a case in the court systems in England right now. I'm pretty sure it deals with the Anglican church. Trust me. If they can compel churches to marry people over there, they will do it here too...


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## PaulS

Unlike England we do not have a state religion. There is a separation between the state and the different religions in the USA. Marriage is a civil act for the state while it is considered a sacrament for the religious side. The sacrament is accepted by the state even though the civil ceremony is not necessarily accepted by the different religions. 

Since the Anglican church is the state religion then the state can legislate to it. They also collect tithe for the churches just like taxes - can you imagine that in the USA?


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## Arizona Infidel

Yes, I actually can.


----------



## Inor

PaulS said:


> Unlike England we do not have a state religion. There is a separation between the state and the different religions in the USA. Marriage is a civil act for the state while it is considered a sacrament for the religious side. The sacrament is accepted by the state even though the civil ceremony is not necessarily accepted by the different religions.
> 
> Since the Anglican church is the state religion then the state can legislate to it. They also collect tithe for the churches just like taxes - can you imagine that in the USA?


That sounds good on paper, but ask yourself: how many churches in the U.S. would not perform homosexual marriages (even though their orthodoxy forbids it) if the feds stepped in and threatened their tax-exempt status? Some would hold to their faith, most wouldn't. Frankly, I hold most mainstream Christian churches in almost as much contempt as I hold our politicians for the current state of our society.


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## PaulS

If the feds stepped in and said that churches would have to perform same gender marriages there would be an immediate challenge. Churches do not perform civil ceremonies - they are just accepted by the state. The sacraments that are performed by churches are for members in good standing only. It would be a sacrilege to allow a non member to participate. It would never happen if for no other reason than the Catholic church would challenge it. (even though the Church of Rome had a marriage ceremony specifically for partners of the same gender)

Most churches wield much more power over their congregations than the government does. I doubt they would be willing to give that up. 

I have and likely will perform marriages for same gender couples and for mixed gendered couples. It is not a point of faith but rather a point of conscience. I find nothing in the gospels against same gender marriage. There are passages in the Old Testament and in the Acts but I find no place that Jesus said it was wrong for a man to love a man or a woman to love a woman. Those are the words that I listen to - those of Christ and not the men who were supposed to spread His words after His resurrection.


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## Inor

My apologies, I used the example of same-sex marriage only as an example of something that most Christian faiths oppose in principal but are more than happy to throw under the bus to keep their tax exempt status. That was probably a bad example given the recent emotional high points on this thread. Regardless, whatever the issue, I have seen far too many times that churches are willing to disavow their stated beliefs to keep their tax exempt status and not "cause waves" within their community. Maybe I am crazy but isn't "causing waves" what the whole Black Robe Regiment was about leading up to the Revolution? Wasn't it the churches "causing waves" that led to the abolition of slavery?

My point has nothing to do with same-sex marriage. But using that as an example, if religious leaders have determined through prayer and meditation that same-sex marriage is right, shouldn't they be leading and the government be following? That does not seem to be the way it is now. Right now, it seems to me the government is threatening and the churches are groveling.


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## PaulS

The thing is that churches are tax exempt by default. It is part of the tax code that has been upheld in several cases and the only way they can lose that status is by involving themselves in political matters. 
We have built a wall that blocks the government from entering into religious ideas and stops churches from entering into political ideas.


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## jimb1972

PaulS said:


> The thing is that churches are tax exempt by default. It is part of the tax code that has been upheld in several cases and the only way they can lose that status is by involving themselves in political matters.
> We have built a wall that blocks the government from entering into religious ideas and stops churches from entering into political ideas.


In case you have not noticed that wall has been breached repeatedly by the state, most recently with the ACA mandating that religious organizations health plans must provide for things like abortion and contraceptives regardless of the organizations beliefs.


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## inceptor

jimb1972 said:


> In case you have not noticed that wall has been breached repeatedly by the state, most recently with the ACA mandating that religious organizations health plans must provide for things like abortion and contraceptives regardless of the organizations beliefs.


Add to that the fact that as a 61yr old male, I am required to have maternity and pediatric care. I do hope I don't get pregnant, I'm too old for that sh$$.

The govt is proving they can force anything they desire. After all, they know what's best for us, right?


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## Dr. Prepper

You guys have pointed out another reason for the USA to downsize government - all government.


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## tango

Vertiedger, my comment 'some do" was directed to Techtony, in response to his post that people think gays-"act flambouyant and 
wear dresses'. Ever seen a gay pride event?


Sorry, should have been clear
I grew up on a farm and have raised animals most of my life. Queer activity among animals is rare indeed.


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## The Resister

PaulS said:


> When you get married you get a license that is recorded by the county, state and federal government. It provides survivor benefits, tax benefits, and certain rights to be with your spouse under extreme conditions. The same process should be true of same gender marriages. In our country (the USA) you can choose a religious or civil marriage but both require a license that is recorded. As a minister I can use a church document or the one issued by the state - they must have the same information and qualifications. The issue I have with this topic is that no government or governmental agency has the power to decide whether any two people, of age, and mental capacity can be married or not. The state decides the age of majority (the minimum age one can provide knowledgeable consent) and whether they are mentally capable of forming a legal contract. It goes further to state that they cannot be married to another at the time they get married.
> 
> The government should never be given the power to say who can and cannot get married. You must be able to see where that kind of power could be misused.
> 
> I should state that no religion can be compelled to perform marriages contrary to the beliefs and practices of that religion. No government can force me to perform such a ceremony and neither can they prevent it.


Here is the bottom line:

When I got divorced the judge wrote that I "_shall have the* RIGHT* to remarry_." (Emphasis mine, of course)

Now, let me quote Black's Law Dictionary on a legal point or two.

"*License* - _The permission by competent authority to do an act, which, without such permission would be illegal, a trespass or a tort_. People v. Henderson 391 Mich. 612, 218 N.W.2d 2, 4"

"*Permit* -_ In general, a document which grants a person the right to do something_."

Honestly, I cannot understand this discussion about government granted "_rights_." Rights are bestowed upon a person by their Creator (their God, whomever they deem that to be) and certainly NOT by any corrupt government. If the government grants you a "_right_," it is no right at all, but a mere privilege. If the government grants us our rights, then they can tell you what kind of firearm you can or cannot own; how many firearms you can own... and ultimately even tell you who you can and cannot marry.

Every time I stumble across this subject, I envision a young boy of about six, demanding that his parents extend his privileges to stay up past 9 pm. His parents would probably spank his ass, tell him to shut up and go to bed. Anything the government grants, they can take it away. IF you have a "_right_" to do something, then the government cannot (within a de jure government) permit it or license it. That would beyond their jurisdiction and scope.

Any one of you can find someone that will perform a marriage ceremony and even issue a marriage certificate based upon the vows you take. Does that mean that you will get government entitlements? No, but then again those are clearly within the power of government to grant or deny. Can you get insurance and interact with private businesses? That is, or should be settled within a free enterprise. So, if you believe that you have a "_right_" to get married, why apply for a license or permit in the first place? The license / permit negates the "_right_" and makes the entire discussion moot.


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## techtony

I will address the marriage issue.....

1. The United States has a Constitution that specifically forbids the Government from interfering in Peoples religious beliefs. So forcing a church to perform gay marriage is ridiculous and I dont think that would or should happen. I dont understand why anyone would want to go to a church that hates them and force them to marry them. That is stupid, it would be like a black couple suing the Ku Klux Klan for refusing to cater their wedding. 

2. I dont care what the hell they call it, but I should not have to hire a lawyer and pay out 1800 in legal fees to have a gay friendly power of attorney, will, living trust, real estate deed contingencies, living will, letters written to each hospital in the area explaining That my partner should be allowed on the premises, etc etc. All of this paperwork that married couples do not have to have. We are truly not looking for "special rights" we are looking to just live our lives and go to work like everyone else... equal. By the way yhe special rights phrase came into being over hate crime legislation not marriage. Which I disagree with if you murder someone, you murder someone it was already against the law so hate crime legislationnis redundant


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## inceptor

*de jure adjective according to law, authorized, authorized by law, by law, by order, by right of law, by statute, in accordance with law, in accordance with the ordinance, in accordance with the statute, in the eyes of the law, lawful, lawfully, legal, legally, legitimate, legitimately, licit, licitly, nomothetical, of right, sanctioned by law, within the law *

Which means the govt can decree and deny anything they choose.


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## Meangreen

techtony said:


> I will address the marriage issue.....
> 
> 1. The United States has a Constitution that specifically forbids the Government from interfering in Peoples religious beliefs. So forcing a church to perform gay marriage is ridiculous and I dont think that would or should happen. I dont understand why anyone would want to go to a church that hates them and force them to marry them. That is stupid, it would be like a black couple suing the Ku Klux Klan for refusing to cater their wedding.
> 
> 2. I dont care what the hell they call it, but I should not have to hire a lawyer and pay out 1800 in legal fees to have a gay friendly power of attorney, will, living trust, real estate deed contingencies, living will, letters written to each hospital in the area explaining That my partner should be allowed on the premises, etc etc. All of this paperwork that married couples do not have to have. We are truly not looking for "special rights" we are looking to just live our lives and go to work like everyone else... equal. By the way yhe special rights phrase came into being over hate crime legislation not marriage. Which I disagree with if you murder someone, you murder someone it was already against the law so hate crime legislationnis redundant


Hey if you think that is expensive you should try a wife! Just kidding. My statement of special rights is the fact that the progressives have high jacked gay marriage to push their agenda and attack Christian Churches not unlike Obamacare and the Catholic Church. I agree that gay people should have equal rights and no group should have rights at the expense of another.


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## The Resister

inceptor said:


> *de jure adjective according to law, authorized, authorized by law, by law, by order, by right of law, by statute, in accordance with law, in accordance with the ordinance, in accordance with the statute, in the eyes of the law, lawful, lawfully, legal, legally, legitimate, legitimately, licit, licitly, nomothetical, of right, sanctioned by law, within the law *
> 
> Which means the govt can decree and deny anything they choose.


All that which is within the realm of *unalienable* Rights is outside the scope of the government. For example, here is a quote from a gun case that illustrates the point:

"_The right of the people peaceably to assemble for lawful purposes existed long before the adoption of the Constitution of the United States. In fact, it is, and always has been, one of the attributes of citizenship under a free government... It is found wherever civilization exists. It was not, therefore, a right granted to the people by the Constitution.
...The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence_."

While government may have the *power* to restrict your Rights, they damn well do not have the *authority*. That, inceptor, is the logic behind defending the Second Amendment.

When it comes to gay marriage, nobody is restricting their right to get married; it's just that society does not accept them... and we cannot force it on people. If the gay community convinces insurance companies to insure them and accept their non-government issued marriage certificate, then that is their right. If the voters reject gay marriage, then sin loi.


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## The Resister

rickfromillinois said:


> If you want to get married you don't have to do so in a religious ceremony. Have a civil wedding. If you want to do so and the Church you go to refuse to do it because it is against their tenants, don't sue them, go to another Church. There are some out there that don't have a problem with marrying same sex partners. The government needs to stay out of it, and most importantly, other people need to stay out of it. If two adults want to get married it is nobodies business but theirs. It wasn't that long ago that in many states it was illegal for a Black and a White person to marry. Once again, whose business is it? As for those of you who use the "think of the children" argument, I would like to point out that there are no studies that children raised by Gays/Lesbians in a stable relationship are somehow disadvantaged but there are studies that show just the opposite. By the way, there are many people who believe that children are being harmed if their parents drink alcohol, smoke, are overweight, or own FIREARMS. I am sure that there are many people that believe that children who are raised by preppers and somehow being abused.
> 
> No, I am not gay, but I believe that most people should just mind their own business and what 2 adults do that doesn't hurt anyone else is no one's business but theirs.


What is the advantage? Are you saying that the acceptance of gay marriage is not contrary to our cultural heritage? Not looking for a fight, just a little understanding.


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## pharmer14

techtony said:


> I will address the marriage issue.....
> 
> 1. The United States has a Constitution that specifically forbids the Government from interfering in Peoples religious beliefs. So forcing a church to perform gay marriage is ridiculous and I dont think that would or should happen. I dont understand why anyone would want to go to a church that hates them and force them to marry them. That is stupid, it would be like a black couple suing the Ku Klux Klan for refusing to cater their wedding.


The typical story would be a person who grew up say Catholic or whatever denomination, found out they were gay, and wanted to get married in the faith they grew up in.

It actually has happened in England (Gay Couple May Sue Church Of England Following Passage Of Marriage Equality Bill). And we all know the track record of the US government following suit... It may not happen for a year, decade, or longer, but it will happen here as well. I guarantee it.

And gay couples have also sued caterers, bakers, venues, etc who refused to provide service for them to the point some of them have had to go out of business.

I think whatever your view on homosexuality is, we can all agree that there are people passionate about it on both sides. People who object for religious reasons should have the right to do so.



> 2. I dont care what the hell they call it, but I should not have to hire a lawyer and pay out 1800 in legal fees to have a gay friendly power of attorney, will, living trust, real estate deed contingencies, living will, letters written to each hospital in the area explaining That my partner should be allowed on the premises, etc etc. All of this paperwork that married couples do not have to have. We are truly not looking for "special rights" we are looking to just live our lives and go to work like everyone else... equal. By the way yhe special rights phrase came into being over hate crime legislation not marriage. Which I disagree with if you murder someone, you murder someone it was already against the law so hate crime legislationnis redundant


100% agreement here... I just think the federal government shouldn't have anything to do with it... for or against...

Agreed with the hate crime thing too... aren't all crimes motivated out of hatred??? Well maybe not all, but at least most...


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## sparkyprep

BetrayedAmerican said:


> Are there any others than me that think that the opening and allowing of homosexuality to become public and tolerable has a huge impact on the morality and decency in todays community. Or am I just born in the wrong era and way to conservative and way to into the teachings of my father by his father by his father and so on and so forth... I know it dates back to way back when but still I feel it is a serious burden on today's moral aspect of things when my daughter can come home and ask why it is that little jimmy has two daddys.... YUK...


I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. I believe that gay or strait, what anyone does with their lifestyle, or in their bedroom is none of my business. Morality and decency are relative terms. What your opinion of moral is can be completely different from what I think it is. Being different doesn't automatically make you "wrong". I have several gay friends, and they are salt of the earth people who work hard, pay their bills, love their lives, and love their families, just like you. Not all gay people want to be on the news, screaming about how gay they are. Most just want to live their lives as they see fit, which is what this country was based on.
Try thinking of this..... What if a close family member of yours was gay, but no one knew? If you found out, would you automatically stop loving them? If you can say yes to this question, then it is your morals that should be in question.
I know that this may be a very unpopular opinion on a forum like this, and I might not be the most resected member here, but it is still my opinion, and I stand by it. Anyone who would judge someone that they don't know, for reasons that have no real effect on their lives, should take a long, hard look at their own set of morals and sense of decency.
Who cares why Jimmy has two daddys, as long as they all love each other, and raise Jimmy to be a caring, productive member of society.


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## techtony

That is what I think the problem is. Some people believe that tjis.is some kind of anti american thing. It certainly is not. I defended this country and all it stands for. All I ask os that the government allow us to be protected under the law. I could care less if you accept me, just as you probably could care less that I don"t like mayonaise. I am not asking to be married, all I want is something very basic.... the right to see my partner in the hoslital, make medical decisions, make funeral arrangements, get put on the deed of the house or mortgage, the right to survivorship and yes medical benefits if I so choose. None of that NONE of it would affect uoi on any level. None of it is against America. NONE of ot should be decided by you, just as uou would probably not want me telling you that the gun you own is actually mine and when you die it cannot be handed down to your son or daughter. 

As for cultural heritage..... if the founding fathers did mot want gay people in their country it would have been written in the constitution. We are here, we dont care if you accept us but do what is right and let us live oir lives in peace. If you do that, The gay pride parades you so often refer to would disappear. And I for one would jappily get rid of them.


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## sparkyprep

techtony said:


> That is what I think the problem is. Some people believe that tjis.is some kind of anti american thing. It certainly is not. I defended this country and all it stands for. All I ask os that the government allow us to be protected under the law. I could care less if you accept me, just as you probably could care less that I don"t like mayonaise. I am not asking to be married, all I want is something very basic.... the right to see my partner in the hoslital, make medical decisions, make funeral arrangements, get put on the deed of the house or mortgage, the right to survivorship and yes medical benefits if I so choose. None of that NONE of it would affect uoi on any level. None of it is against America. NONE of ot should be decided by you, just as uou would probably not want me telling you that the gun you own is actually mine and when you die it cannot be handed down to your son or daughter.
> 
> As for cultural heritage..... if the founding fathers did mot want gay people in their country it would have been written in the constitution. We are here, we dont care if you accept us but do what is right and let us live oir lives in peace. If you do that, The gay pride parades you so often refer to would disappear. And I for one would jappily get rid of them.


Make no mistake about it, the reason that the Conservatives are opposed to gay marriage and gay rights is because of insurance companies. If we legalize gay marriage, insurance companies will have to pay benefits to these people, like any other spouse. When it comes to Capitol Hill Conservatives, ALWAYS follow the money.


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## Verteidiger

tango said:


> Vertiedger, my comment 'some do" was directed to Techtony, in response to his post that people think gays-"act flambouyant and
> wear dresses'. Ever seen a gay pride event?
> 
> Sorry, should have been clear
> I grew up on a farm and have raised animals most of my life. Queer activity among animals is rare indeed.


No problem, tango! I thought you were writing to me.

In my life i have been friends with gay, bisexual and lesbian people. No trannies that I am aware of. And there was no sexual contact - we were just friends hanging out having fun. In fact, I have a bisexual female friend right now who has Stage 4 breast cancer, has had a double mastectomy, who will die prematurely (she smoked). I am helping her secure her Social Security disability benefits and it is a freaking nightmare. Her medical costs are overwhelming. She wants to provide for her partner (female) for when she dies. It is tragic beyond most people's ability to understand.

I have had gay men friends, and been around them when they have parties and cookouts. They invite me to see if I will show up and are always glad I do because I don't shun them socially. Sometimes they act "Nellie" as they call it - they behave like they perceive women to. And sometimes they really act up, flaunting and taunting on purpose. I think it is really kind of silly, and it is an act, for the most part. Some wear feather boas and prance around, some wear leather, one is a gay Nazi (yeah...I know), but most of them just behave almost like straight people. They share common interests that are almost recognizable traits - most play piano, and love classical music; most collect antiques and decorative items; most cook like gourmets; they seem to prefer wine over beer; and they watch figure skating instead of football or team sports. And they seem to prefer cats over dogs. Yep, true.

I find them to be people who enjoy life but remain troubled by lack of acceptance by straight society.

And it can be awkward sometimes.... I was hired one time to build a set of custom bookshelves for a guy. I worked with his bisexual partner, and I was in college and needed the money. I showed up on time on a Saturday morning. No answer at the door, then I heard "come in" - I opened the screen door, and they were still in bed, groggy from a fun Friday night. It was weird seeing two guys in bed, I don't mind telling anyone. Awkward as could be, for all of us, I think.... I built the shelves and they paid me, and we never discussed it.

So, I have an open mind about it. I believe in equal pay for equal work, I believe in equal protection under the law, and it seems to me that everyone should be able to enter into an economic partnership to pool their resources (which is part of the reason straight people marry - truth) and I believe in equal rights, for everyone. That is an American standard we hold out to the world.

But I don't kiss and tell. My sex life is private and I don't talk about it. Gay or lesbian people say my partner and I don't blink.

But to obtain equal rights when they have been denied requires protest - society has to be alerted to an issue in order to fix it. Women marched to be able to vote, blacks marched for civil rights, peace activists march in peaceful protests, and gays march in parades to call attention to their political purposes (or maybe just to party, I'm not sure).

Just keep your sex life to yourselves, please....

And now, let's get back to prepping and surviving in the wilderness! Done with this thread, I am.


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## tango

Me too


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## pharmer14

techtony said:


> As for cultural heritage..... if the founding fathers did mot want gay people in their country it would have been written in the constitution. We are here, we dont care if you accept us but do what is right and let us live oir lives in peace. If you do that, The gay pride parades you so often refer to would disappear. And I for one would jappily get rid of them.


Haha... Yeah I think there's a lot the founders didn't anticipate. Think they thought that space travel would exist?

But that's the beauty of freedom. The same principles apply no matter the scale. That doesn't mean we need more laws.

And the parade thing gets me too sometimes. Even in some of the most tolerant places in the country... like Key West (the self proclaimed gay capital of the US) and very liberal cities like NYC and LA... Why are such parades needed in cities like that?


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## Denton

techtony said:


> That is what I think the problem is. Some people believe that tjis.is some kind of anti american thing. It certainly is not. I defended this country and all it stands for. All I ask os that the government allow us to be protected under the law. I could care less if you accept me, just as you probably could care less that I don"t like mayonaise. I am not asking to be married, all I want is something very basic.... the right to see my partner in the hoslital, make medical decisions, make funeral arrangements, get put on the deed of the house or mortgage, the right to survivorship and yes medical benefits if I so choose. None of that NONE of it would affect uoi on any level. None of it is against America. NONE of ot should be decided by you, just as uou would probably not want me telling you that the gun you own is actually mine and when you die it cannot be handed down to your son or daughter.
> 
> As for cultural heritage..... if the founding fathers did mot want gay people in their country it would have been written in the constitution. We are here, we dont care if you accept us but do what is right and let us live oir lives in peace. If you do that, The gay pride parades you so often refer to would disappear. And I for one would jappily get rid of them.


No, the founding fathers should not have put this into the constitution. The constitution was not written to be the moral compass of the nation. The Christian belief was to do that. This was no secret to them, but has been made a secret to this generation, and on purpose. Patrick Henry knew something that those who wish to enslave us know - _It is when people forget GOD, that tyrants forge their chains._. The constitution was written to give the government a form and to outline exactly what that government is to do. All else is outside the authority of that government. All other rights and responsibilities were to be left in the hands of the state governments and the people.

Being accepted as yet another flawed human being who is (should be) struggling against sin does not mean the sin you embrace should be recognized as something other than what it is, much less honored. Sorry. By the way, the assertion that homosexuals are hated by churches is inaccurate. That the abominable behavior is hated, just as the act of adultery, murder, lies, theft, etc., does not mean the human is hated. Yes, I know that was written in another reply, but it deserves rebuke.

While making other points, I would like to make this point. I have read many people say a couple things. It is not our job to judge, and it is not our concern what others believe.

I am not to judge whether someone is going to Heaven or Hell, and it is certainly not my place to say someone should go to Hell. I am not the Judge. Only He determines that. Sin separates us from God, and the only bridge between us and God is His Son. He died, gave Himself as the perfect sacrifice, so that our sins are covered with His blood if we accept that perfect gift and repent (turn away) from our sins. Now, recognizing what is a sin is a very important thing to be able to do. Being able to discern what is a sin does not make us out as being judges. That is a lie, created by the father of all lies. What good is that lie? Seems painfully obvious; how many Christians are now silent because they believe they are being "judgmental" when they speak out against sin and in defense of a decent, moral society?

Christians, stop believing the lie that makes you think you are sinning by standing against the acceptance of sin. That makes you an accomplice to the Satanic agenda, is all.

The other thing I want to address, to my fellow Christians specifically, is the notion that we are not to share our faith, the very bedrock of our nation, with others, but are to merely hope they find their way to God. Two words, Great Commission. Why is it that the Bible says we are saved by _hearing_ the word? Why are we to be bold? These things are biblical, yet we prefer to believe the easy lies, as that means we may sit back and turn on the TV. This nation is decaying because we believed the lies, we lost our worth as salt, and we allowed the enemy to take control. Now, we are being backed into a corner because we didn't do what Father had us do.

People are being deceived by the enemy, the one who wants all humans to be relegated to the eternal punishment that was designed not for us but for Satan and the angels that followed him. He is the enemy, he is the one who has been controlling the misinformation and the slow degradation of this society and he is the one who wants all sin, not just homosexuality, to be accepted as not being a sin. Remember, sin blocks us from Father, whether or not we recognize it as being sin.

OK, that's all I have to say. To argue worms, dragonflies, abomination-rights parades or anything else is really nothing more than the smoke of concealment meant to confuse the spiritual battleground. The war is on, and we are all on one side or another, willingly or blindly. That there are people who are lost and dying, leaving this world without knowing the only hope of salvation, is what we should see as the ultimate problem. That sin is being made alternative and that the government is a willing accomplice in making those in need of a savior not realize they are living in sin is a societal problem that has manifested itself because we, the Christians, refused to do our job of knowing the truth and standing strong in it. That, brothers, is making the first problem more difficult, and we really have no one else to blame but ourselves.


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## Meangreen

....


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## GTGallop

BetrayedAmerican said:


> Are there any others than me that think that the opening and allowing of homosexuality to become public and tolerable has a huge impact on the morality and decency in todays community. Or am I just born in the wrong era and way to conservative and way to into the teachings of my father by his father by his father and so on and so forth... I know it dates back to way back when but still I feel it is a serious burden on today's moral aspect of things when my daughter can come home and ask why it is that little jimmy has two daddys.... YUK...


Yeah... Gay ain't my thing but I don't hold any ill will towards it or the people who are gay. Who am I to say who you can and can't love? And the whole marriage equality thing, if we outlaw gay marraige do we prevent them from being gay or loving each other? No - not really. You just make it inconvenient for them to be happy and nobody likes a killjoy.

Basically I see it like this...
You don't like preppers? Fine, don't prep.
Don't like guns? Fine with me. Don't buy one.
Don't like hunting? Cool. Go shop at the grocery store where you food was pre-hunted for you.
Don't like eating meat. Fantastic. Don't eat it - more for me.
Hate smoking? Don't light up then. And if you don't like the people who do, walk the other way.
Don't like homosexuality. Alrightey. Fine with me. Don't go poking your dick in guys asses.

Don't like people telling you what you can and can't do? Then don't tell them what they can and can't do.

Pretty simple. Live and Let Live.


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## Montana Rancher

Government cannot legislate morality

When it does it either tramples upon the rights of the moral or the immoral.

So I say let the perverts and homosexuals do what they want, but don't prosecute the person that persecutes the immoral.

You can quote me on that, it is original thought but most red blooded Americans would agree

Haha let the hate crimes begin!!


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## inceptor

First, I do not condone persecution of any kind. I have been on the receiving end and don't appreciate it. 

As to the morals issues, he is talking about the morals this country was founded on, not the ever changing, pc, let's tolerate everyone and everything. Where do you draw that line?


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## inceptor

rickfromillinois said:


> Where do I draw the line? About what 2 consenting adults do with each other and doesn't hurt anyone is their business, no one else.


What 2 consenting adults due in privacy is no ones business, I agree. But now I have to witness it in public? I don't care what side of the fence you're on, some things should not be public.

So you think this is about slavery and wife beating? This is what old fashion morals mean to you? smh.

So the more tolerant of every thing we become, the better society will be? Whether we like it or not?


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## rickkyw1720pf

You can not talk about homosexuality in the context that what people do at home is nobodies buisnesses and doesn't harm anyone else. You are forgetting the millions of people that have died of aids that was spread through out the world by homosexuals, this is a fact and if it just stayed in the homosexual community I wouldn't have a problem with it. But they have spread it to the regular community through blood transfusions, needles and heterosexual sex. Many children have died from blood transfusion in fact.


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## brphotoakes

Sexuality has no need to be dwelled on. There are good and bad people on both ends of the spectrum. Why put a single sexuality on blast when there is just as many bad things going on with all sexualities. If you are a good person, great. If you are a bad person, figure it out.


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## indie

...and, welcome to the forum!



brphotoakes said:


> Sexuality has no need to be dwelled on. There are good and bad people on both ends of the spectrum. Why put a single sexuality on blast when there is just as many bad things going on with all sexualities. If you are a good person, great. If you are a bad person, figure it out.


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## pharmer14

rickkyw1720pf said:


> You can not talk about homosexuality in the context that what people do at home is nobodies buisnesses and doesn't harm anyone else. You are forgetting the millions of people that have died of aids that was spread through out the world by homosexuals, this is a fact and if it just stayed in the homosexual community I wouldn't have a problem with it. But they have spread it to the regular community through blood transfusions, needles and heterosexual sex. Many children have died from blood transfusion in fact.


I happen to have just finished 5 weeks at a veterans hospital. One morning each week, we spent time with an Infectious Disease physician working on the care team for HIV patients. I consulted on the medications for probably 30 or 40 such patients, and I can tell you that a whopping 1/40 patients were gay. All the rest received the virus from either heterosexual contact, IV drug abuse, or unknown transmission (accidental needle sticks, etc).

HIV not a problem exclusive to the homosexual community...


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## rickkyw1720pf

brphotoakes said:


> Sexuality has no need to be dwelled on. There are good and bad people on both ends of the spectrum. Why put a single sexuality on blast when there is just as many bad things going on with all sexualities. If you are a good person, great. If you are a bad person, figure it out.


Nature is neutral it doesn't care if you are good or bad, it is the homosexual act that spreads the HIV virus. Unfortunately nature doesn't care if you are good, young, old or bad if you get the HIV virus from even the best of men you will probably die.

Homosexual men 44 -86 times more likely to be infect with HIV: "In 2007, MSM [Men Sex with Men] were 44 to 86 times as likely to be diagnosed with HIV compared with other men, and 40 to 77 times as likely as women." (Center for Disease Control, http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm)


----------



## Denton

rickfromillinois said:


> How very tolerant of you. My Grand-father, Great-Grandfather, Great-great Grandfather, and Uncle were all Christians that preached that it is wrong to drink, smoke, preached non-violence to the point of being conscientious objectors and prohibited the ownership of firearms. To them any violation of any of these was a sin. As you can imagine growing up shooting guns, hunting, and marrying a Catholic, in addition to spending 20 years in the Army, some members of my family barely recognize me as being alive. That's okay because they embarrass me more then I do them. The point that I am making is are we going to be LEGALLY controlled by Christian beliefs and avoiding "sin", just what Christian belief are we going to be controlled by? Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Mennonite,Presbyterian ? If our Founding fathers wanting us Legally controlled by Christian beliefs, why didn't they actually say so in the Constitution? If you want to live in a theocracy, there is one in Iran. How's that working out?


Did I say anything about a theocracy? Nope. You are going well overboard and your argument is very much a stretch. 
Allow me to go just as full-on stupid, if you don't mind. 
Let's suggest we declare there is no such thing as right and wrong, moral and immoral. As a matter of fact, why not go totally ignorant and suggest that all those who do suggest there is a God and He is the Author of law as well as salvation are the ignorant bigots while all those who declare there is no God and therefore no morality are totally righteous in declaring those crazy Christians as the filthy, vile creatures who should not be tolerated.
Wait. No, that is beyond totally ignorant. That is where we are well on our way to going. Then again, Christians who know the future know this is going to happen. Matter of fact, we American Christians are fairing a lot better than those in a lot of other parts of the world.

Seems the notion of "theocracy" escapes you, even if you know the word. It is also clear you barely skimmed the reply of mine that you quoted. Try again, and you'll see I didn't suggest executing homosexuals, or adulterers, or liars, or any other abominable act. How is Iran working out? Funny you should ask, as that, in fact, is a theocracy. It isn't the only one, either. That is the way they handle homosexuals, not us, so let's not try and be extreme as it just looks dumb.

The founders made it clear that we weren't going to allow the federal government to chose any particular sect's way of doing things over any other. That is what the reason for the Establishment clause. This was understood only a few decades ago. Do you think this was a theocracy, then? How about the 40's? Maybe back in 1790? This conversation would have been viewed as ludicrous, but not because of me.

No, I don't understand the way your grandparents think, but I also don't understand how my own parents think, as they believe consuming alcohol is a sin. In my mind, that it is hard to believe that while knowing the Jesus turned the water into wine. In context, it is clear it was wine, and not grape juice. Still, that has nothing to do with understanding this nations heritage, and your service doesn't change that. Don't worry, I am not "judging" you for that without judging myself, too. I wasn't all that up on the nation's early days, the debates that sculpted the crafting of the government or beliefs that were expected the hold the culture together. I was a product of government schooling, up until six days before going to basic training. I bothered to overcome that handicap, though.

This nation was not a theocracy before the homosexual agenda started, and those of us who recognize it for what it really is aren't suggesting this be a theocracy. Your assertion is defenseless.

By the way, this might surprise you, but I stopped by a hippy-dippy shop to pick up some e-cig fluid. The sales clerk was clearly ****, and burning him at a stake or hanging him from a tree never even crossed my mind. A bonus for ya - after picking up the fluid, wifey and I then ate at a new smokehouse restaurant recently opened by a friend and his wife. They are tattoo-covered atheists! I never entertained the thought of giving them the choice of conversion or death. I know, that blows your mind, doesn't it, Rick. Hey, I even left a very nice tip.


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## pharmer14

rickkyw1720pf said:


> Nature is neutral it doesn't care if you are good or bad, it is the homosexual act that spreads the HIV virus. Unfortunately nature doesn't care if you are good, young, old or bad if you get the HIV virus from even the best of men you will probably die.
> 
> Homosexual men 44 -86 times more likely to be infect with HIV: "In 2007, MSM [Men Sex with Men] were 44 to 86 times as likely to be diagnosed with HIV compared with other men, and 40 to 77 times as likely as women." (Center for Disease Control, Redirect Page)


Smoking causes bronchitis/emphysema... should smoking be considered immoral too???


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## Denton

rickfromillinois said:


> "Don't persecute the person that persecutes the immoral". Really? And who decides what is immoral, you? There are people who believe that it is immoral to hunt animals. Using your logic they shouldn't be prosecuted if they wait for you to come out of your home to go hunting, shoot you, gut you like a deer, and hang you from pole? That would be okay because they consider you immoral?


Montana Rancher is also buying into one of those little lies that are meant to keep the moral people quiet. Government can legislate morality. Everything else is a code, statute or regulation. Stealing and murdering is immoral. It is legislated. Does that mean all sins are supposed to be legislated? Of course not, and it never has been the case in this nation. On the other hand, immorality is being legislated when it is being codified as being a good thing.

Now, to your assertion that everyone's notion of morality should be used as reason to write law and imprison people such as hunters. See, this society was expected to be a society based on Christianity. Not any particular sect, but the fundamentals of Christianity. It takes a wild, insane stretch of the imagination to suggest hunting is immoral. Hug-A-Tree folks didn't form the nation or the government.

Who decides what is moral? My goodness. Really? I never even asked such silly questions when I was a kid! Rick, come on. No nation is based on no morality, and this nation was based on the Christian concept of morality. You know this. Let's not play games.


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## rickkyw1720pf

pharmer14 said:


> Smoking causes bronchitis/emphysema... should smoking be considered immoral too???


I am not condemning homosexually on whether it is immoral but because it the main route HIV has been spread around the world. 
I could care less what people do if it just affected them.


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## drackore

If HIV was predominantly a black disease that jumped into the white community, this would be a very different topic. In fact, in the late 80s and early 90s, more black heterosexuals had HIV than whites. Still, it was easier to blame gays because we were coming out of a racism mentality and gays were the easy target.

HIV is not the "gay disease". It's just a disease. It affects people. It's transmitted through bodily fluids, not just through sex. It won't be cured anytime soon because there is too much profit in keeping it where it is now.

Being in the military, the great group for social experimentation, we've undergone the "allow gays to serve openly and share close quarters" policy changes. I have my reservations about it, and other than those I don't really care. My reservations are you have an openly gay man that now gets to ogle to his heart's desire in the open showers and make his tent/bunk mates uncomfortable by offering them zero privacy. Straight men don't get this "benefit" in women's showers or tents, but gay men do. Same with gay women. Straights can't complain, they get told to deal with it, accused of being bigots, etc. Right now the gays pretty much have a free pass to do and act however they want in the military. At the same time, being gay doesn't make someone any better or worse at doing a job. Just like color or race or gender. I've seen women handle combat situations just as well if not better than some men. A human is a human, and downrange, I just care that the human wearing the same uniform as I am is carrying their weight and treating their team with respect.

We all say "keep your bedroom to yourself" type stuff...and that's fine too. However if you have a bunch of guys sitting together talking about the "tits on that chick" or "yea I went on a date with Julie and finally scored" and everyone is hi-fives all around...fair is fair, right? If Indie up above is talking about getting a gun for her husband for Christmas, what can't Billybob talk about getting HIS husband a new crossbow? Yea, it creeps some of ya'll out...I get that. I'm straight as they come...but fair is fair, right?

And let's not forget the REAL problem with this new gay movement. It's not that gays are getting equal treatment or better than equal treatment. Yes, they are...they are making demands and actually getting them...but the real problem is now that while gays are allowed out of the closet, it seems Christians are being forced into one. You so much as mention the words God, Jesus, Christianity, Bible, etc...and you are getting suspended, fired, sued, censored, etc. *THAT* is the real problem we're facing. We gave one group MORE rights than others, and we're taking all the rights away from another group all together.


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## inceptor

Well rick, you should be happy that those good Muslims are killing those evil Christians because the are Christians. Being a Christian in the middle east, China and other places is a death sentence. Sounds like you would be a supporter of that here. Don't worry, it's coming.

Tolerance is a wonderful thing. As time goes on, we are becoming a more tolerant society.


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## inceptor

And if you think this is an isolated incident, it's not. This is New York.


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## techtony

What does this discussion have to do with pedophiles? I thought we were talking about the vile evil homosexuals and how they should have no rights, dragged out in the street and killed in the name of Allah... oh I mean God. 


To those who think you have to have religion in order to be moral, I have to tell you that you are wrong. Morals and values can be taught by something as simple as as a nursery rhyme. Where do the morals come from? Some believe that the christian bible is the only book that teaches morals. I reality morales were being taught by Pagens millenia before judaisn. And before the pagens were arojnd morals were being taught by the godless sumerians. They all based their morals on one principal that has transcended all religions and beliefs from the beginning of time.... do unto others as you would have done unto you. In reality that is what is moral, because if you look at it any other way... you open it up to some pretty evil shit. 

I must say that I really have liked this thread.... it has become entertaining as well as enlightening.


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## The Resister

pharmer14 said:


> Smoking causes bronchitis/emphysema... should smoking be considered immoral too???


Yes, it should. Your odds as a NONSMOKER are that you are *five times* as likely to be killed from second hand smoke in the U.S. compared to a firearm.


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## Meangreen

techtony said:


> What does this discussion have to do with pedophiles? I thought we were talking about the vile evil homosexuals and how they should have no rights, dragged out in the street and killed in the name of God.
> 
> To those who think you have to have religion in order to be moral, I have to tell you that you are wrong. Morals and values can be taught by something as simple as as a nursery rhyme. Where do the morals come from? Some believe that the christian bible is the only book that teaches morals. I reality morales were being taught by Pagens millenia before judaisn. And before the pagens were arojnd morals were being taught by the godless sumerians. They all based their morals on one principal that has transcended all religions and beliefs from the beginning of time.... do unto others as you would have done unto you. In reality that is what is moral, because if you look at it any other way... you open it up to some pretty evil shit.
> 
> I must say that I really have liked this thread.... it has become entertaining as well as enlightening.


Drama Drama Drama! No one said that homosexuals need to be killed nor that you have no rights. You are accepted. I agree that morals were established long before the bible.


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## Meangreen

rickfromillinois said:


> So what does the phrase "don't persecute those who persecute the immoral" mean to you? Sounds to imply violence to me.


It sounds very biblical.


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## Meangreen

It took me awhile to find it but I thought this summed it up pretty well. 

In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia


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## techtony

My religion states that the following is immoral, therefore it should be legislated out of our society....

Stupid people should be stoned in public
Sleeping with more than one person for your entire life is punishable by death
People who own pets are deceitful and therefore owning pets is strictly outlawed. 
Eating meat is vile and disgusting therefore all meat products are banned
Powered products are of Satan and if you are caught with them you will be put into the rack publically.
if you have more than one child, all subsequent children will be taken away and killed

All of this sounds ridiculous right? Well these are examples of some the morals taught around the world in the name of religion.... some are christian, some are muslim, others are hindu and buddist. But everyone of them were or are still a law. Each law in this country should do one thing and one thing only... serve the people. If the law is not doing that we have a problem. And a problem we all have right now. We have laws that tell us that we cant build on land that has a certain snail on it and if we try to sell that land we are prevented from doing so. We have laws on the books that say that our freedom of speech can be suspended in time of government emergency. We have laws legislating almost every aspect of our life. Our government need to stop legislating stupidity and just let us live our lives. But these people who claim to distrust the government want it to be moral and apply law to certain groups of people that they view as immoral. How exactly does that serve the people? 

Our government needs to serve us not tell us what our morals should be


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## inceptor

techtony said:


> What does this discussion have to do with pedophiles? I thought we were talking about the vile evil homosexuals and how they should have no rights, dragged out in the street and killed in the name of Allah... oh I mean God.
> 
> To those who think you have to have religion in order to be moral, I have to tell you that you are wrong. Morals and values can be taught by something as simple as as a nursery rhyme. Where do the morals come from? Some believe that the christian bible is the only book that teaches morals. I reality morales were being taught by Pagens millenia before judaisn. And before the pagens were arojnd morals were being taught by the godless sumerians. They all based their morals on one principal that has transcended all religions and beliefs from the beginning of time.... do unto others as you would have done unto you. In reality that is what is moral, because if you look at it any other way... you open it up to some pretty evil shit.
> 
> I must say that I really have liked this thread.... it has become entertaining as well as enlightening.


In a nutshell, without a whole mess of quoting, no one said homosexuals should be killed or even punished.

What has been stated is that Christians are evil. Some of the things promoted by Christians are slavery and wife beating. I have looked but no where in the Bible can I find thou shall beat thy wife.

It has been stated that tolerance is a wonderful thing. All I did was point out the unintended consequences of too much tolerance.

From the New York State website "Since the Marriage Equality Act (the Act) took effect on July 24, 2011, all marriages, whether between same-sex couples or different-sex couples, are treated equally under the laws of New York." Ok, this is the law. BUT the law does not limit the act to same sex marriage, although this was the intent. The law of unintended consequences opens the door for all kinds of things.


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## inceptor

rickfromillinois said:


> Still have a problem with reading comprehension? The statement was made "don't persecute those who persecute the immoral" was made in regards to Gays. This clearly implies doing violence to Gays.
> 
> Please show me where anyone said that Christians are "evil". I will agree that some things done in the name of Christianity was evil, but then IMO those were not true Christians. The wife beating part was something that I said in response to someone who said that we need to follow the morals of our Founding Fathers. I pointed out that it was NOT against the law anywhere in the United States when it was first founded to beat your wife. Some of our Founding Fathers were not all that moral in their private lives. YOU judged that to be an attack against Christianity. It wasn't.
> 
> Your so-called "unintended consequences against too much tolerance" as not posted as such, it was posted as an attack against me for being (in your mind) anti-Christian. I am not. I do not believe that REAL Christians are so intolerant that they believe that it is alright to attack anyone who are not harming anyone else or that are "sinning".
> 
> Get your facts straight and read the posts more closely.


Deleted

Just keep on keeping on.


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## techtony

Taking religion out solves it. Our forefathers were right. If we take religion out and pass laws that serve our people and not make their lives a living hell then we would all be better off. 

Look, I am an atheist. I am not like some of the others of my non belief and attack religions. I celebrate Christmas because it is fun. I celebrate thanksgiving because I like to eat turkey and canned cranberry jelly from the supermarket. I like christmas trees and christmas carols. I think our schools go overboard on banning stupid things. I will and have fought for everyones right to believe they way they want to believe.... but one thing I will not defend is people telling me I should not have the right to enjoy my life and it the way I want too live it as long as I am not affecting others. 

Try to put yourself in someone elses shoes before you think that they shouldnt have the same rights as you. I used to think gay marriage was a dumb and stupid idea untol my life was completely turnednupside down by the state I pay taxes in and told point blank by the state, we would help you if you were not gay. Thats whennI realized religion was too far seeded in our laws.


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## Arizona Infidel

rickfromillinois said:


> So what does the phrase "don't persecute those who persecute the immoral" mean to you? Sounds to imply violence to me.





rickfromillinois said:


> Still have a problem with reading comprehension? The statement was made "don't persecute those who persecute the immoral" was made in regards to Gays. This clearly implies doing violence to Gays.
> 
> Please show me where anyone said that Christians are "evil". I will agree that some things done in the name of Christianity was evil, but then IMO those were not true Christians. The wife beating part was something that I said in response to someone who said that we need to follow the morals of our Founding Fathers. I pointed out that it was NOT against the law anywhere in the United States when it was first founded to beat your wife. Some of our Founding Fathers were not all that moral in their private lives. YOU judged that to be an attack against Christianity. It wasn't.
> 
> Your so-called "unintended consequences against too much tolerance" as not posted as such, it was posted as an attack against me for being (in your mind) anti-Christian. I am not. I do not believe that REAL Christians are so intolerant that they believe that it is alright to attack anyone who are not harming anyone else or that are "sinning".
> *
> Get your facts straight and read the posts more closely.*


GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT AND READ THE POSTS MORE CLOSELY. 
Sounds like good advice ricky boy. Maybe you should take it yourself. 
You have now misquoted Montana Rancher at least 4 to 5 times. 
But hey, that's perfectly alright as long as it furthers along your agenda...
The ends justify the means................... Right?


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## Mish

Silverbullet said:


> I personally don't give a shit who anyone loves, as long as you are respectful, are a good person and aren't hurting anyone then you are alright with me. I find that most people who try to use "God's law" as a reasoning for hate are the biggest hypocrites out there. These are usually the same people that lie, cheat, and steal, but are suddenly righteous, God fearing people when it comes to homosexuality, using bible scripture to further their own agenda. Live and let live, that's how I live my life, until someone screws with me, then it's on.


Love this post!
I believe straight people are doing more to hurt the idea of marriage than anyone else. Isn't the divorce rate around 50%? (don't quote me, I remember reading that somewhere on the net) I get to explain to my son why the kids in his class have more than one set of parents. =)


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## Arizona Infidel

techtony said:


> Taking religion out solves it. *Our forefathers were right. *If we take religion out and pass laws that serve our people and not make their lives a living hell then we would all be better off.


How right you are, in one aspect. Our forefathers were indeed right. You, however couldn't be more wrong. Our forefathers NEVER advocated taking religion "OUT" as you put it. As a matter of fact, just the opposite is true. 


> TO THE OFFICERS OF THE FIRST BRIGADE OF THE THIRD
> DIVISION OF THE MILITIA OF MASSACHUSETTS
> 11 October, 1798
> 
> GENTLEMEN
> I have received from Major-General Hull and Brigadier-General Walker your unanimous address from Lexington, animated with a martial spirit, and expressed with a military dignity becoming your character and the memorable plains on which it was adopted.
> While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world; while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candor, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world; because we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net.* Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.*
> An address from the officers commanding two thousand eight hundred men, consisting of such substantial citizens as are able and willing at their own expense completely to arm and clothe themselves in handsome uniforms, does honor to that division of the militia which has done so much honor to its country.
> Oaths in this country are as yet universally considered as sacred obligations. That which you have taken and so solemnly repeated on that venerable spot, is an ample pledge of your sincerity and devotion to your country and its government.
> JOHN ADAMS.





> *Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.*


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## techtony

Arizona Infidel said:


> How right you are, in one aspect. Our forefathers were indeed right. You, however couldn't be more wrong. Our forefathers NEVER advocated taking religion "OUT" as you put it. As a matter of fact, just the opposite is true.


Well well, a letter written by one persons opinion. I did not see the word Constitution of The United States on that document anywhere. You must remember there was alot of debate on the constitution and Adams was only one of many expressing their views. Did you know at one point they debated creating a puritanist state religion? They also debated whether or not have weapons was a wise idea. So you can take any one persons letter written as proof of their true intent. The point is that they debated it, and in the counsel of many they found wisdom. They probably thought hey, religious persecution is what we dont want, so lets leave it out and just say people can believe whatever the hell they want to. I still cannot find the stance that religion is what the government should base all their decisions on in the constitution..... anywhere.


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## Arizona Infidel

I am not going to post every single letter, thought , and argument of every single signer at the federal and state level concerning the founding documents of this country because you want to have an argument to defend your perverse sexual inclinations. 
It is not that hard for one to become self educated if they wish. It is also understandable how one would not want to do this when they have an agenda they are pushing. 
You have an agenda you are pushing.
You are wrong.
History has proven over and over you are wrong.
Your ideas are not original to this world. 
In the end you will be proven wrong. You may or may not still be amongst the living when that happens, but it will happen.
Again, History has proven this.


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## techtony

Yes and you have an agenda too, everyone does. Your agenda is to say that this country is a christian only nation and all others that you yourself are disgusted by should get out of your way. My agenda is to ensure that I live my life in peace and the government not interfere in mine or anyone elses life. 

You can stick your head in the sand and think whatever you want, its just sad that you find it necessary to impose your will on others in your misguided and perverted view of the world.

And your self education has failed you sir. Adams never signed.the Constitution.


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## PaulS

The reason for the spread of HIV in the USA is through heterosexual contact not through the gay population. They test blood for HIV and don't use it for infusions and transfusions. Anal sex, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual anal sex is a good way to cause all kinds of infections and transmit any existing infections. The HIV infections began in Africa - no one is sure how but it is assumed that it was transferred to humans who hunted monkeys and were contaminated from the blood of the apes getting into a cut or mucus membranes. The infected person transferred it to their spouse and it was shared among tribal members and to offspring.

As to the basis of morality in the US being Christianity there is multiple items of evidence to show that Christian ideals and principles were not used. They were principles based on Theism, deism and "common sense" rules that allowed folks to express freedom and have rights that were apparent in nature. The Treaty of Tripoli stated in no uncertain terms that the USA was not and never had been a Christian nation.


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## inceptor

Circa 1965 from Paul Harvey. He saw it coming.


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## techtony

I want to note before the flame war starts that Adams did not sign the constitution because he was not presnt at the signing, not that he did not have anything to do with it.... he did. But he also made it a point not to mention God and religion in the constitution. There is nothing wrong with having faith, the problem is dictating to others what they should believe and deny them life liberty and the pursuit of happiness due to a percieved establishment of government sanctioned religion.


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## techtony

I loved paul harvey, but i dont think he had anything to do with the constitution.


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## inceptor

techtony said:


> I loved paul harvey, but i dont think he had anything to do with the constitution.


No, I think you're right. The constitution was written a couple of years before he was born.

That was on the changing values in this country. Nothing more. It's kinda like he had a crystal ball, ya know?


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## inceptor

But I guess I'm just old fashioned. I was part of the '60s and participated. I ended up going back to my initial beliefs and values. I like the constitution the way it is. Guess I'm not progressive enough. Times are changes and people want to re-write that document or do away with it completely.

Heck, even our president isn't happy with the constitution the way it is.





.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

techtony said:


> Yes and you have an agenda too, everyone does. Your agenda is to say that this country is a christian only nation NEGATIVE. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT.and all others that you yourself are disgusted by should get out of your way. NEGATIVE AGAIN. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT EITHERMy agenda is to ensure that I live my life in peace and the government not interfere in mine or anyone elses life.
> 
> You can stick your head in the sand and think whatever you want, its just sad that you find it necessary to impose your will on others in your misguided and perverted view of the world.NEGATIVE AGAIN. I NEVER SAID I WANTED TO IMPOSE "MY WILL" UPON ANYONE.
> 
> And your self education has failed you sir. Adams never signed.the ConstitutionI NEVER SAID HE DID.


FOUR STRIKES and YOU are OUT. Run along silly little child, I am done with you. Goodbye to you.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

rickfromillinois said:


> I am not sure what "changes" in the U.S. Constitution has to do with Gay people. I don't remember seeing them specifically referred to in the U.S. Constitution, nor marriage for that matter. Marriage has always fallen under state laws. I keep hammering this point, but one of the things I believe that the U.S. Constitution gives us is the right for people who are adults to more or less do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt anyone and do not infringe on other people's rights. Admittedly that is pretty simplistic, but I am not all that complicated of person. I am not Gay nor do I have any children who are Gay, but fair is fair.


The Constitution doesn't give us the "RIGHT" to do anything. The constitution set up the 18 enumerated powers of the federal govt. While the bill of Rights stated in writing SOME of the rights bestowed upon us by our creator which the government could not infringe upon.


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## PaulS

Amendments 1-8 list specific rights that our government is supposed to protect. Amendment 9 shows that we have other rights that are not enumerated that the federal government is also bound to protect. Amendment 10 provides that if it isn't listed in the preceding document it is a power that belongs to the states or the people.


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## Arizona Infidel

inceptor said:


> Circa 1965 from Paul Harvey. He saw it coming.


 WOW. Every single thing he said happened.


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## PaulS

It was already happening back then!


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## techtony

Arizona Infidel said:


> I am not going to post every single letter, thought , and argument of every single signer at the federal and state level concerning the founding documents of this country because you want to have an argument to defend your perverse sexual inclinations.
> It is not that hard for one to become self educated if they wish. It is also understandable how one would not want to do this when they have an agenda they are pushing.
> You have an agenda you are pushing.
> You are wrong.
> History has proven over and over you are wrong.
> Your ideas are not original to this world.
> In the end you will be proven wrong. You may or may not still be amongst the living when that happens, but it will happen.
> Again, History has proven this.


Hey Arizona.... remember this? Since you think I am the only one who has an agenda, what were you trying to say here? I have to say you left something out. You said I am wrong and history proves me wrong again and again..... what history? And how will it prove me wrong in the future?

As for you being DONE with me and using big red letters to say it..... man that really hurt my little wrong feelings. And as for my "perverse sexual inclinations" they are mine and they are none of your damn business "BOY".


----------



## techtony

Oh and I feel compelled to point out the constitution never had or has the word creator in it. Just sayin


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## pharmer14

techtony said:


> Taking religion out solves it. Our forefathers were right. If we take religion out and pass laws that serve our people and not make their lives a living hell then we would all be better off.


Our forefathers did not take religion out of lawmaking. In effect, that would be saying that they took out their previous life experiences as a factor for future life decisions.

What they did was say we won't allow the government to do what it did in England. Prior to the Pilgrims leaving England, the church was highly influenced by the government over there and used by the government as a means of persecution and discrimination. The constitution reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Nowhere does it state "Religious views should be removed from legislation."



> Try to put yourself in someone elses shoes before you think that they shouldnt have the same rights as you. I used to think gay marriage was a dumb and stupid idea untol my life was completely turnednupside down by the state I pay taxes in and told point blank by the state, we would help you if you were not gay. Thats whennI realized religion was too far seeded in our laws.


I don't have a problem with atheism per say. The problem I have with saying "religion is too far seeded in our laws" is that the de facto attitude you must carry then is "Rights don't come from god (i.e. inherent to human existence)." What is the logical source of rights then???

Is it not government???

If rights come from government, rights may be taken away by government. If rights can be given/taken away by government, are they rights at all? To me, rights transcend government.

Do I have a right to free speech because the government says I do or do I have a right to free speech because I'm human and inherently born with it? Do I have a right to self defense because the government say I have it or because I'm a human and inherently born with it?

I think this is the big reason why people who don't support gay marriage hold that belief. They view it as a religious *rite* with a very real presence of God. In reality, I find it hard to equate the religious marriage (involving God) to the secular one (without a god) regardless of sexuality. My inclination therefore is to allow secularism to be secular and ensure that religion is able to remain religious.

The only real problem I have with the SCOTUS's decision on prop 8 is that the federal government effectively said "We don't care what the citizens believe are rights. We are smarter than you." One day that logic will be applied to another "right" and it may not end in your favor... For many of us with the healthcare discussion, it already has...

And I would have voted in favor of gay marriage if I had a vote in CA... but legislating morality is wrong in my opinion. That goes in both directions... Such questions should remain ballot referendums.


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## inceptor

Didn't even CA vote down gay marriage and the govt stepped in and said we will allow it? I believe that is correct.

The other problem here is that it's ok to force things on other people when it's either in your favor or something you don't care about. It really doesn't matter what the issue is. What happens when the shoe is on the other foot? When your rights or freedoms get stepped on will it be ok then? Will it be too late to do anything about it?

This used to be a govt by the people and for the people. Now we have professional politicians and it's a govt to the people.
_
"They came for the Communists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Communist;
They came for the Socialists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Socialist;
They came for the labor leaders, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a labor leader;
They came for the Jews, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Jew;
Then they came for me - And there was no one left to object."
[Martin Niemoller, German Protestant Pastor, 1892-1984] _


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## techtony

If we left the determination of rights to the people without regard to prejudice and bigotry, then this country would be in a wholly different hell. If they left xivil rights up to the people in 1963, then black.people would not be able to vote, most would not be able to marry who they wishes to and they would still be relegated to using seperate restrooms and water fountains. We would still have white only restaurants. Baxk in that time period people were quoting the bible that says plainly the races are to mix in regards to marriage. So the answer is not ro allow people to determine rights. You yourself said that rights are not given by the government, but I ask you this does the bible give you the right to free speech or free press?

In Ethics class you learn that religion does not guarantee or determine morals... society does. Our civilization has used one simple rule to determine if something is moral.... would you like to be treated that way. Everything can be boiled down to that. 

I do undersrand what you are trying to say about their life experience in framing the constitution though, but on the same token if they wanted us to be a christian theocracy, dont you think that they would have made that clear in the constitution?


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## pharmer14

inceptor said:


> Didn't even CA vote down gay marriage and the govt stepped in and said we will allow it? I believe that is correct.


That's right... It really is a spectacular display of tyranny.

Again. I would vote for gay marriage on a referendum in my state.

The constitution is about natural rights... rights that exist simply because you have a heart beat and can think. I don't see marriage (gay or otherwise) like that.... Which to me means it should be left to the states and not the federal government.


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## techtony

How does gaay marriage stepnon your rights inceptor?


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## techtony

Well then I do not think you should not have a right to divorce on that logic..... it is not god given. Actually god says divorce is not allowed. Therefore since it is not a natural right, uou shouldnt have that right. 

Sorrh for the crappy ass typing.... I have been limited to using the kindle fire tonight ..... which sucks when you wanr to type fast


----------



## pharmer14

techtony said:


> How does gaay marriage stepnon your rights inceptor?


He didn't say it did. He said the SCOTUS shooting down the will of the people stepped on his rights... Big difference...


----------



## inceptor

I personally have gay friends and have no agenda there. What I posted way early on was what the Bible stated. I stated that I had no right to judge and I don't. I have too many sins on me to be able to judge anyone. I can't cast the 1st stone. My saving grace is that Jesus died for our sins and I am forgiven. I personally don't care what you or anyone else does as long as it doesn't affect me. 

What this is mostly about for me is freedom to choose. The govt has stated that the people have no right to choose with the Marriage Equality Act. Did you notice that this also left the door open for other things. OK, I'll give you that was not the original intent. But you have had to have heard about unintended consequences. 

So the govt took away the right of CA and other states to choose. What happens when they take away your choice to choose something and not give you any say? Will that be different or will you say "that's okay because they know whats best for me better than I do." There are other things to consider here. 

These very same people are the ones who state the 2nd amendment should go away. This year the potus signed into law no free speech zones. You did hear about that, right? What's next? 

Freedom of religion is loosing it's freedom. For me, that's a big deal. Ok, maybe not so much for you.

What about redistribution of wealth? Potus has stated openly this is on his agenda. Do you have any type of retirement plan? I hope not because that will be part of it. It's only fair ya know since others don't have one and you need to share. All totaled the French pay about 75% in taxes. The Canadians are in the 50% range as are many European countries. On top of that they have the VAT for most, if not all purchases. 

So, the point is are you willing to give up your rights to choose to the govt over anything they think is good for us or should we be allowed to make our own choices?


----------



## inceptor

techtony said:


> I do undersrand what you are trying to say about their life experience in framing the constitution though, but on the same token if they wanted us to be a christian theocracy, dont you think that they would have made that clear in the constitution?


This country was founded because of religious persecution and was not set up to be a theocracy. What they did have in mind and stated many times in the federalist papers was that we were set up using Christian principals.


----------



## techtony

You have a good point, you are right. We should allow people to determine what rights we have. 

You are right we are a christian principaled nation and should turn to the church of latter day saints for our moral compass.


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## inceptor

rick is correct, we are a Republic and not a Democracy. We are a country of laws. These laws can be changed by the people using the proper process. 

This does not mean that the politicians should be making all of our decisions. It does not mean they know whats best for us and we should just follow along. China and North Korea kinda rule the people that way and they have no say. Is that what you want here?


----------



## techtony

That was a joke btw i did not make that clear


----------



## inceptor

techtony said:


> That was a joke btw i did not make that clear


Yeah, I got it.

So do you believe in Que Sera, Sera? There should be no lines drawn?


----------



## techtony

No, I dont want a rule like N korea. I just want a country that doesnt try to make my life a living hell because churches think I should be burned at the stake for being me. That is apparently too much to ask. So I now have to give my life over to a mob of people that think God hates me. What do you think the outcome is going to be? 

Hey when the natives surround you and the only person that can help you is a witch doctor, I think your time is up, you will not recieve justice. 

I look at it that way. You are asking me to let people who hate me determine how I am going to live my life and what right I have to be equal. Mob rule sucks. And you are right in the quotes uou had earlier.., except I refuse to let them come for me or anyone else for that matter.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

pharmer14 said:


> He didn't say it did. He said the SCOTUS shooting down the will of the people stepped on his rights... Big difference...


SCOTUS didn't shoot down the bill. On homosexual judge that retired right after he made that ruling did. SCOTUS ruled that the authors of that bill couldn't bring the legal challenge when Gov. Moonbeam decided the state wouldn't defend its law.


----------



## Arizona Infidel

inceptor said:


> This country was founded because of religious persecution and was not set up to be a theocracy. What they did have in mind and stated many times in the federalist papers was that we were set up using Christian principals.


People that don't want to know the truth will not self educate themselves. People with an agenda will ignore what is inconvenient or anything that goes against their agenda. Hence the claim " IT DOESNT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THAT IN THE CONSTITUTION" and the refusal to research the thought process behind the decisions made.


----------



## pharmer14

techtony said:


> You have a good point, you are right. We should allow people to determine what rights we have.


So I say we should have the right to kill people... "Thall shall not kill" was indeed written in the bible, so we need to get rid of murder laws... 


> You are right we are a christian principaled nation and should turn to the church of latter day saints for our moral compass.


That's not what a single person here ever proposed. All we're saying is that laws should reflect the values of the people who live here. As such, they should have christian influences just like they should have jewish, muslim, and atheist influences too.

Saying religion should have no influence in societal laws, etc is actually pretty selfish on the part of an atheist if you think about it. That sort of attitude says that religious folk should have to compromise but the atheist shouldn't.


----------



## inceptor

techtony said:


> No, I dont want a rule like N korea. I just want a country that doesnt try to make my life a living hell because churches think I should be burned at the stake for being me. That is apparently too much to ask. So I now have to give my life over to a mob of people that think God hates me. What do you think the outcome is going to be?
> 
> Hey when the natives surround you and the only person that can help you is a witch doctor, I think your time is up, you will not recieve justice.
> 
> I look at it that way. You are asking me to let people who hate me determine how I am going to live my life and what right I have to be equal. Mob rule sucks. And you are right in the quotes uou had earlier.., except I refuse to let them come for me or anyone else for that matter.


I hope you never do give up. I sincerely hope things work out for you.

I won't go into the details but my childhood was a nightmare. I became what they made me. After God hit me upside the head with a 2x4 on more than one occasion, I realized I didn't have to be that way or live like that. After 3 failed marriages and a whole host of other disasters, I decided I had had enough and was outta there. Eventually I moved to Texas and my life hasn't been the same since. I like who I am and what I have become. This month I have been married to the same person for 25 yrs. We are best friends. I have job where I get to do some good in this world and I have been blessed beyond my wildest dreams. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination but I am comfortable. I am content with the majority of my life.

I am sharing this because I want you to understand that others also face diversity. It took me a while to figure out something needed to change. If I would have stayed where I was I could have ended up dead or in prison. I truly didn't believe I would live to see 30. I was full of hate and anger. I made the conscious decision to turn my life around. I had no idea how I was going to do it. I did not need or want any intervention. This was something I had to do on my own. BTW, I am now 61.


----------



## pharmer14

Arizona Infidel said:


> SCOTUS didn't shoot down the bill. On homosexual judge that retired right after he made that ruling did. SCOTUS ruled that the authors of that bill couldn't bring the legal challenge when Gov. Moonbeam decided the state wouldn't defend its law.


That's a good point... and also true.


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## techtony

pharmer14 said:


> So I say we should have the right to kill people... "Thall shall not kill" was indeed written in the bible, so we need to get rid of murder laws...
> 
> That's not what a single person here ever proposed.


And I know that, that is why I posted right after that it was a joke. I really did not think people would say let the LDS should rule us. I would move to Canada before I would allow that to happen. ..... and I do NOT like Canada .... not my cup of tea.

As for being selfish, I can say the same about letting christians do the same.

The thing about murder and the law, yeah the bible says thou shall not murder, but if you boil that down to what I said earlier.... do unto to others..... then uou dont need the bible to tell you what the law should be.

Ive said before I dont mind religious people, this really has nothing to do with religion per se.... it has to do with a government that is preventing me from freely living my life and protecting me and my loved ones. So you have to ask at that point, why would the government that since that is their job? Its because some religious folk tell the government that the country is christian and christians hate gay people. Now do I believe all christians believe that... hell no, my mom is christian and she loves me. I have christian friends that are always there for me.... but there are some really vocal hateful people out there tbat they believe they are right in making life a living hell for everyone else in the name of God and that is what i disagree with.


----------



## Deebo

Thats right. DEEBO is still here. Cant read all these threads, but, please, continue to be respectful, and remember that no matter what one of us believe, or how we were raised, that everyone has the rights that we have. Put yourself in somebody elses shoes, then take two steps back.


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## MrsInor

Is it time for turtles or bacon yet?


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## jimb1972

MrsInor said:


> Is it time for turtles or bacon yet?


Mmmm.. Bacon (I capitalized it because it is that important)


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## rice paddy daddy

I made a vow back around page two or three that I would not get involved in this conversation.
But now you mentioned bacon!


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## Denton

rickfromillinois said:


> You are confusing morality with legality. When the United States was first founded it was founded on individual rights and liberties. To sum it up simply, do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or infringe on others' rights and liberties. To imply somehow that it is alright to persecute a Gay couple because they are Immoral is illegal and frankly in my opinion immoral itself.
> 
> This country WAS NOT founded on the notion that it would be a society based on Christianity, but on principles developed from a JUDEO/Christian society that developed in Europe over the centuries. By the way, Judeo means JEWISH, funny how many people seem to forget that when they attack Jews for not being Christian. If the country was founded on strictly Christian morals there would be Bible verses in the Constitution. There are none. There is no mention in the Bible either that it is alright for people to attack other people for who they sleep with. When do we start stoning the adulterers? As for the hunting analogy, I was responding to a simplistic and frankly IMO, a disgusting, statement of "don't prosecute the person that prosecute the immoral". Who decides just what exactly is immoral, and by what right do they prosecute anyone?
> 
> Playing games? It's not a game. Many "moral" people over time have decided that THEY are going to go out an "prosecute" those THEY consider immoral. Witch burnings, stonings, floggings, lyinchings, on and on. Simply because THEY think that someone else is doing something "immoral". You want to live by the Christian concept of morality? Fine. If two people get divorced then re-marry to others, all of them are committing adultery and should be stoned to death. What most "moral" people who want to "prosecute" others for their "immorality" forgets are the some of the words spoken by Christ such as "he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "do on to others". The same people will quote passages from the Old Testament about why something is immoral and people will be punished for it but at the same time ignore the parts prohibiting the eating of pork and shellfish. Had any bacon lately? Maybe you should be hung for that.


Nope, it was founded on Christianity. It'd values are rooted in our cultural understanding of right and wrong found in Christianity. I think George Washington said it nicely, "_Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion&#8230;reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle._" Considering the first battle cry was _No King But King Jesus_, I think we should be able to understand a little about the nation's societal thoughts on the national cornerstone, and considering your argument is relatively recent and has been stamped as being true by those who have been actively changing the nation for the last few decades, I don't see the need in continuing with this. You can learn the truth for yourself, just as I did. If you want to follow the lie, that is also your choice.

Hey, if it makes you feel better, your side is going to win.

Again, you attempt to swap Christianity with Islam. Again, you look ignorant. Not even in the most moral, religious days of this nation, was it a theocracy. This makes it clear that you don't know a thing about Christianity or the foundation of this nation. It is not possible to have a Christian theocracy. Of course, that is also illustrated with your attempts to make eating pork a capital offense (again, are you a closet Muslim?) and believing that Jesus was teaching to go and _do as thy wilt_ when He saved the adulteress from the men. OF course, you are attempting to misuse the scripture so that you can say that anything goes in this country. Again, a new concept. You might want to know what happens when the blind follow the blind, if you are going to try and quote a book you don't understand.


----------



## Denton

rickfromillinois said:


> There is a reason the we are a REPUBLIC and not a Democracy. As Ben Franklin put it, we are a Republic to prevent MOB RULE.


Seems so much escapes you, Rick. You'll buy any scrap of lie they are willing to toss you. 
The nation was created to be a constitutional republic, but it is now a democracy. Been this way for decades. How many presidents and other politicians have even admitted this to those not smart even to have already figured out the difference?

Democracy is not simply the pure form, where everyone votes on everything.


----------



## Denton

rickfromillinois said:


> One more thing....When I get angry or upset I often swear, curse, and use the Lord's name in vain. In all Christian sects that is a sin and therefore is immoral. If one of you intolerant can't mind my own business and I have decided that I will punish you if I don't like how you live types want to come to my house and "persecute" me for my immorality, please do. The biggest problem I will have with you is deciding whether to use my .45, 12 ga., or I just may introduce to a form of anal sex by ramming the barrel of my Sharps buffalo gun up your posterior then pulling the trigger. Frankly I am shocked. I thought that one of the tenants of being a prepper was being independent and self efficient, not trying to tell other people how to live and implying that YOU are going to punish them if YOU don't like the way they live. I see little difference between you types and the liberals in government who are convinced that THEY are so much smarter then everyone else that THEY have the right to tell everyone else how to live.


Yes, I imagine you are the type that would have a problem holding his tongue - like me. Are you so degenerate that you don't know how to keep your tongue when in public, or are you the type who believes ladies, gentlemen and children should be subjected to profanity? If so, I assure you that I would not wait to correct you. It wouldn't happen at your house. I am a man, and I do not lightly suffer unwashed rogues who are disrespectful. I have a track record of this, and am not merely running my mouth.

As far as your inane, internet tough guy talk of what weapon you'd use on someone looking to "persecute" you, you are once again, sounding as ignorant as possible. Considering how ignorant you are, I can't tell what you don't know and what you are ignoring. This being the case, I will help you a little. Again, take this or leave it.

Simply being immoral does not mean infractions are punished in the same way. You are aware of that, right? I mean, you do know there is a difference between a misdemeanor and a felony? Cultures have expectations of behavior, and these are called norms. There are different levels of norms. These are called folkways, mores (pronounced "mor-ays") and taboos. A folkway is not treated as a taboo, or the other way around. Seems silly that I am even having to explain this, but here I am.

Now, just because something is not made a legal crime through law doesn't mean it should be considered socially acceptable, much less should there be laws forcing others to accept those activities as acceptable.

By the way, Rick, you are attempting to twist truth around by claiming we Christians are no better than the liberals who are trying to force us to accept that which is an abomination, in both the Old and New Testaments. If you want to commit crimes against nature, decency and anything else, and you are committing these things with a willing accomplice and are doing it in privacy, you are the one who will be ultimately responsible for your actions in the afterlife. But, you are trying to declare we are wanting to hang you, when all we want is to not allow filth to continue degrading the nation. Your side is the new kid on the block, not ours.

LOL! I am still snickering over your internet commando crap, as if we are going to gang up and storm your house. :lol:


----------



## Denton

rice paddy daddy said:


> I made a vow back around page two or three that I would not get involved in this conversation.
> But now you mentioned bacon!


LOL! Tag, I am climbing out. Who has the time to discuss this? Not enough time, and those who are so misinformed about Christianity, theocracy, culture, and the founding decades of this nation are in dire need of that which they so direly do not want - education. This is a waste of time.


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## PaulS

No one possesses any right to infringe on the rights of another.
No one can say that you must have guns any more than some can say you cannot have guns.
If a choice is involved then the choice has to be made by each individual.

Our rights cannot be restricted even if there is just one person in 300 million that wishes to exercise that right.
Our rights cannot be legislated away, they cannot be given up, they cannot be bought or sold.
My right to free speech ends when it is used to injure another. That is why you can't yell "fire" in a movie theater when there isn't one, why you can't tell lies about another person and why you can't divulge the secrets of another person that would bring harm to them.
No one has the right to kill another person unless that person is threatening them with grievous harm. Your right to swing your fist ends at the other persons nose.

Our country was founded on the principle that each individual had the right to choose for him/her self the way they would live - so long as it did not interfere with the way others lived.

If you want to return to that kind of life the vote Libertarian.


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## felocin

Did not read the entire thread but thought I'd put my 2 cents in.

I think it makes no difference if people are gay in their house or on a train. The energy put into worrying about other peoples lives is such a waste.

I think Louis CK articulates my feelings on this issue much better than I can. Well up until the 1:45 mark at least.


----------



## jesstheshow

Well, damn.


----------



## The Resister

rickfromillinois said:


> This forum is for discussing if the SHTF. If it does I have a hard time understanding how anyone would be concerned about who is doing whom. Really? That is your main concern. Zombies coming over the fence, scrambling for a safe place, trying to find supplies, and your worried about if Gays might get married? Personally I will keep away from these clowns, they are losers.


rickfromillinois,

Yes, this is a prepper site. So, why are we talking about morality and gays?

Each of us, in our survival mindset, has an idea of how we think the SHTF scenario plays out. Christians may believe in an apocalyptic scenario involving the Anti-Christ while the more youthful may envision Zombies. There are those who worry about foreigners and those who worry about Martial Law. Every scenario is valid in our survival preparations.

The gays worry about how Christians perceive them while a lot of people are offended that the gay people seem to want to push their lifestyle on the rest of us by making sure you know who is gay and who isn't. The moral tone of the nation is predicated upon what the prevailing ideology is. We have to face some facts:

America was founded upon Christian principles. That, being the case, we base our morality upon biblical precepts. That, in turn, determines what scenario we are preparing for.

Evil forces want to destroy America by attacking the principle foundations upon which this country was built. They use these groups to keep us in limbo, never really preparing for the actual enemies of Freedom and Liberty. You know, while a lot of us don't care if you're a guy that likes other guys hairy private parts, we don't always agree that the subject must be considered at every opportunity. So, we will continue to discuss and debate the fine points. Is homosexuality immoral? Should we feel obligated to be so committed to the other guy's rights that we deny our own and advocate not speaking out? It's all relevant.


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## jesstheshow

I figured if I gotta love people, I might as well love everyone. i dont think gays are ruining our country as much as the love of $$ is,


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## jimb1972

I guess I always figured the more gay men out there the better my odds with the ladies, now that I am married and middle aged I still hope for the best for my sons.


----------



## techtony

Oh and I just wanted to point out that earlier someone pointed to John Adams and how he wrote in a letter that somehow got translated into the USA was christian only. 

To that person and others that want to say that all the founding fathers wanted the us to be a christian nation.... John Adams also wrote this.....

The Unites States of America is not a Christian Nation

That was in the treaty of tripoli. Of course you have to look at the context, but just the same he said it and he wrote the Constitution. So where does that leave us? He contradicted himself and he was a founding father and second president. I think ... and this is just my opinion.... I think they were christian men trying to set up something new that had never been seen before and they were cognizant that after watching nations switch religions continuously throughout history, they decided it best to stay out of the religion business. 

So was the us founded on christianity? I dont know, but I do know that they definitely left it out on purpose. I also know that the constitution does not allow for marriage at all... leaving it to the states. With that said it also set up the supreme court for judicial review for one reason, the states may step on peoples natural rights. 

Many people think that you have the right to privacy.... but guess what it is no where in the constitution. The government had the right to intercept mail, listen in on conversations and report on them, the most common breach was watching you from a far and reporting your comings and goings. All that was legal, buut someone brought it up in court and the activist judges agreed that us citizens have a basic right to privacy. This led to states immediately enacting privacy laws to shore up the ruling. That is just one example of a right that is not in the constitution but peoples lives were being adversely affected by the absence of tbat right. Maybe one day we will see that some rights need to be updated to make lives easier.


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## MikeyPrepper

Pass.....


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## The Resister

techtony said:


> Oh and I just wanted to point out that earlier someone pointed to John Adams and how he wrote in a letter that somehow got translated into the USA was christian only.
> 
> To that person and others that want to say that all the founding fathers wanted the us to be a christian nation.... John Adams also wrote this.....
> 
> The Unites States of America is not a Christian Nation
> 
> That was in the treaty of tripoli. Of course you have to look at the context, but just the same he said it and he wrote the Constitution. So where does that leave us? He contradicted himself and he was a founding father and second president. I think ... and this is just my opinion.... I think they were christian men trying to set up something new that had never been seen before and they were cognizant that after watching nations switch religions continuously throughout history, they decided it best to stay out of the religion business.
> 
> So was the us founded on christianity? I dont know, but I do know that they definitely left it out on purpose. I also know that the constitution does not allow for marriage at all... leaving it to the states. With that said it also set up the supreme court for judicial review for one reason, the states may step on peoples natural rights.
> 
> Many people think that you have the right to privacy.... but guess what it is no where in the constitution. The government had the right to intercept mail, listen in on conversations and report on them, the most common breach was watching you from a far and reporting your comings and goings. All that was legal, buut someone brought it up in court and the activist judges agreed that us citizens have a basic right to privacy. This led to states immediately enacting privacy laws to shore up the ruling. That is just one example of a right that is not in the constitution but peoples lives were being adversely affected by the absence of tbat right. Maybe one day we will see that some rights need to be updated to make lives easier.


I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. Here is the answer to techtony's argument relative to the Treaty with Tripoli:

Liberty Forum - We are returning... :: View Forum - Chaplain's Room

Now, regarding the Right to Privacy:

"_The *right* of the people to be *secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures*, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized_." -Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

Here is another link that has some very good material disputing this POLICE STATE notion that we don't have a Right to Privacy:

The Right of Privacy: Is it Protected by the Constitution?


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## PaulS

The constitution is a document that restricts what the federal government can do. That is all it does and all it was intended to do.
The bill of rights was added to remind the federal government that they were supposed to protect those rights.

The constitution has been ignored long enough - it is time to put it back in place - Vote Libertarian!


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## longrider

I don't think that churches should be forced to "marry" people that don't follow the teaching of that religion. However, I do believe that Civil Unions should be allowed so that people who love, support and care for each other have legal rights for and with each other.

I have a great friend that I've been "dating" for over 13 years. We probably won't ever get married. But if he doesn't make out a will, that states I have a right to state how he wants his health care, funeral, mental care to be, if he's not capable of stating those preferences, then I'm out of luck. He's slow on the up-take, and I'll just have to bite the bullet and suck it up. That means that his family - that really don't know him as well as I do - will make the decisions. They aren't bad people, but his wishes most likely won't be followed.

I believe that people should be able to make a civil union, no matter who they love. It's *not* for us to judge and not for us to sentance people to "stoning" and whatever those radical yahoos believe. They stoned innocent girls, women and men for being "witches". Are you really wanting to follow in their footsteps?

Jesus said "Let those of you who have not, sinned cast the first stone." Amen.


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## PaulS

Churches have sacraments that are provided to those members "in good standing" and cannot be forced to give sacraments to those outside their belief system. We have civil marriages for those without religious ties and both are legal marriages. I am sure that between the two marriages can be provided for all those couples who wish to get married.There is no need to co-opt churches to allow same gender couples to marry.


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## charito

Silverbullet said:


> I personally don't give a shit who anyone loves, as long as you are respectful, are a good person and aren't hurting anyone then you are alright with me. I find that most people who try to use "God's law" as a reasoning for hate are the biggest hypocrites out there. *"These are usually the same people that lie, cheat, and steal,"* but are suddenly righteous, God fearing people when it comes to homosexuality, using bible scripture to further their own agenda. Live and let live, that's how I live my life, until someone screws with me, then it's on.


How would you know that "these are usually the same people who lie, cheat and steal?" Where did you get that info?

And what makes you think that anyone who invokes God's law as their reason for not accepting homosexuality as a normal lifestyle, hates homosexuals?

I don't accept homosexuality as a normal lifestyle....but I don't hate homosexuals. Some of my close friends in university are gays - 3 of them in fact, and they're definitely the girly-girl types, too!


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## jimb1972

charito said:


> How would you know that "these are usually the same people who lie, cheat and steal?" Where did you get that info?
> 
> And what makes you think that anyone who invokes God's law as their reason for not accepting homosexuality as a normal lifestyle, hates homosexuals?
> 
> I don't accept homosexuality as a normal lifestyle....but I don't hate homosexuals. Some of my close friends in university are gays - 3 of them in fact, and they're definitely the girly-girl types, too!


I agree, it is definitely abnormal and I teach my children accordingly. I see no reason to persecute those who are already so disadvantaged or deny them any secular advantages like civil unions or spousal insurance benefits. I am definitely against teaching our children that this is normal, but I view it as a psychological disorder.


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## PaulS

Homosexuality is not a psychological disorder. It is not a mental disease. It is a natural occurrence among all mammals when populations become too dense. It is also common among mammals in general but to a lesser degree when populations are not at the "critical density".

Is it "natural"? yes! Is it the accepted norm? no - it isn't even the average norm. There is a genetic key (actually seven of them) that is part of the genetic code of all mammals.
There is a difference between abnormal and unnatural. IQs above 100 and blow 50 are abnormal too but we don't discriminate against them in marriage. We don't consider them diseased.


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## techtony

charito said:


> How would you know that "these are usually the same people who lie, cheat and steal?" Where did you get that info?
> 
> And what makes you think that anyone who invokes God's law as their reason for not accepting homosexuality as a normal lifestyle, hates homosexuals?
> 
> I don't accept homosexuality as a normal lifestyle....but I don't hate homosexuals. Some of my close friends in university are gays - 3 of them in fact, and they're definitely the girly-girl types, too!


Wow you are the kind of friend I want! Do these close personal gay friends know that you refer to them as girly types? Do they know you also think that they are abnormal? You would not be someone I would consider a friend. So do me a favor.... go up to these close personal friends of yours and tell them what you really think of them.


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## jimb1972

If it were a naturally occurring trait why are so many individuals who have been molested as children gay?


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## PaulS

jimb1972 said:


> If it were a naturally occurring trait why are so many individuals who have been molested as children gay?


I would love to see your evidence for this statement. How many straight men and women were molested as children?


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## techtony

jimb1972 said:


> I agree, it is definitely abnormal and I teach my children accordingly. I see no reason to persecute those who are already so disadvantaged or deny them any secular advantages like civil unions or spousal insurance benefits. I am definitely against teaching our children that this is normal, but I view it as a psychological disorder.


You were aware that homosexuality is not a mental disorder right? Your personality disorder is though.


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## techtony

jimb1972 said:


> If it were a naturally occurring trait whffy are so many individuals who have been molested as children gay?


 I am gay and I was not molested at any point in my life. My parents were christian, our family was working middle class and my mom did not suffer from ptsd during pregnancy. She did not take drugs either and did not drink.... all of which at one point was pointed to as the cause for homosexuality ...

Guess what, your education is lacking sir and you may want to read a book or a peer review every once in a while..


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## Gunner's Mate

Well im straight and could say PHQU but I wont If you wanna be gay need to be gay cant help being gay i dont care but quit peddling that shit who cares what you do in your bedroom. I do have the right to raise my kids in a heterosexual world with all due respect without subjecting them to an alternative sexual lifestyle if they are gay so be it. i am accepting of your life style maybe not the right phrase or choice of words but you wouldnt subject your daughter to chester the molester from hustler and neither would I. what happens in your bedroom needs to stay in your bedroom I dont parade my wife around in latex wearing a dog collar chained to my Harley Davidson while I go into the Bar and have a few. Moderation respect and common sense go a long way.


techtony said:


> I am gay and I was not molested at any point in my life. My parents were christian, our family was working middle class and my mom did not suffer from ptsd during pregnancy. She did not take drugs either and did not drink.... all of which at one point was pointed to as the cause for homosexuality ...
> 
> Guess what, your education is lacking sir and you may want to read a book or a peer review every once in a while..


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## PaulS

Gunner's Mate said:


> Well im straight and could say PHQU but I wont If you wanna be gay need to be gay cant help being gay i dont care but quit peddling that shit who cares what you do in your bedroom. I do have the right to raise my kids in a heterosexual world with all due respect without subjecting them to an alternative sexual lifestyle if they are gay so be it. i am accepting of your life style maybe not the right phrase or choice of words but you wouldnt subject your daughter to chester the molester from hustler and neither would I. what happens in your bedroom needs to stay in your bedroom I dont parade my wife around in latex wearing a dog collar chained to my Harley Davidson while I go into the Bar and have a few. Moderation respect and common sense go a long way.


Wait, your wife wears latex and chains too? I thought it was just my wife!


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## techtony

I am a bit perplexed by your response sounds like you are drunk or somethin amd you are saying gay people are child molesters, then categorically on all levels you are incorrect. 

As for me wearing latex and collar or assless chaps... again as stated ad nauseum before this stereotype is just that a stereotype. I look like a lumberjack and dont act like a girl.


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## Gunner's Mate

No i couldnt talk her into it


PaulS said:


> Wait, your wife wears latex and chains too? I thought it was just my wife!


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## Gunner's Mate

Apparently you think I owe you an apology for my post I neither accused or implied in anyway you or any other Homosexual of being a child molester or of wearing latex or assless chaps


techtony said:


> I am a bit perplexed by your response sounds like you are drunk or somethin amd you are saying gay people are child molesters, then categorically on all levels you are incorrect.
> 
> As for me wearing latex and collar or assless chaps... again as stated ad nauseum before this stereotype is just that a stereotype. I look like a lumberjack and dont act like a girl.


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## Gunner's Mate

Of course your perplexed, your gay so big deal quit wearing it like a badge of honor


techtony said:


> I am a bit perplexed by your response sounds like you are drunk or somethin amd you are saying gay people are child molesters, then categorically on all levels you are incorrect.
> 
> As for me wearing latex and collar or assless chaps... again as stated ad nauseum before this stereotype is just that a stereotype. I look like a lumberjack and dont act like a girl.


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## techtony

Badge of honor? I am what I am..... what are you? 

This thread is 29 pages long.... read the rest before you open your yap. I am not wearing a badge of honor by posting on a thread that is pondering if gay people are evil incarnate and the real reason for the downfall of the country. So you are suprised a gay person would defend themselves on such a thread? Or is it that you think gay people should not have that right because they would have to admit to being gay? As said before many times.... is it flaunting if I hold my partners hand i public or refer to them as my partner? I see straight people doing that all the time, are they flaunting their sexuality? Of course not. So I am curious why you think I wear it as a badge of honor...... because trust me it is more like wearing an albatros at times.


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## Mish

techtony, I feel your passion in this thread but sometimes you're never going to change peoples' minds. Just be you and know this world is filled with hate, not only towards gays but all different groups of people.


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## PrepperLite

First, I just read the first couple pages, 28 is just to long to hear about WAAAAHHH why are gays here lets exterminate their immoral souls! Jawohl Mein Führer!!!!

Honestly, I don't care either way. Hey I'm from the newer generation, the "Target" for Republicans and Democrats, 24 Years old (ok maybe slightly high). THIS is the first of two reasons the Republicans are going to have a hard time ever getting into the Whitehouse again. *My generation DOESN'T CARE*. I don't care if two guys/girls want to get married good for them, I hope they have a happy life (I have been married and divorced and I can tell you it is over rated!! ha). As for the second in my opinion, I am Pro Choice (but just very slightly, this is a whole other conversation), again another subject Republicans/Right winged crazies harp on that the majority of the "recruitable" don't really care either way about. Being so negative pushes people away whether you like it or not.



indie said:


> I just don't get why it has to be flaunted. I don't give a rat's who is in your bed, but I care a whole lot if I'm forced to hear about it. Keep it behind closed doors and leave the rest of us out of your bedroom.


I would say there is waaay more HETEROSEXUAL flaunting than **** in todays society, everything's about sex.... you hear people in the office make Heterosexual jokes, Heterosexual stories about what they did this weekend, Heteros hold hands on the street and kiss in public, would you feel different "ugh why are THEY flaunting it????" if they were gay?... How is that any different?


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## indie

I realize after pages and pages of this thread that I did not articulate my point clearly. I have no problem with gay couples holding hands, kissing, whatever. I didn't think about that at all when I wrote what I wrote but evidently that's how it came across, so for that I apologize. 

My problem with the whole issue is the almost combative mentality, "We're gay. What'cha gonna do about it? Huh? Huh?!" This isn't an issue with individuals, I mean the whole movement. I suspect the people with an agenda are the ones creating this kind of attitude about it. Heck, most of them are probably straight anyway.

The thing is, it's not really a gay or straight issue. Like Longrider posted, she and her (what did you call him?) male partner or whatever the PC term is these days will face the same issue in the event of hospitalization or death. That it's being made out to be solely a gay issue is what's bothering me and others like me, I assume. Like it's a personal attack against your sexuality, which most of us never cared about in the first place. 

So, poor articulation or not, I really don't care where you find love. I just don't want to be forced to have to care, or think about it, or deal with it, the same as I wouldn't want to force the world to deal with my sexuality. This was never meant to be directed to anyone at an individual level, because it's the whole movement that's causing the problem.

There, probably clear as mud now, but I tried. And this before coffee.


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## WildernessGuy24:13

I am confident in the knowledge that those who have made this choice will have to answer for it on judgement day. We can legislate and debate it until the end of time but the laws of man do not supersede the laws of God.


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## PrepperLite

Let he without sin......


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## PrepperLite

rickfromillinois said:


> We all will have some things to answer for to God when we die. So who will have the most to answer for, the Gays or those who promote violence against them? Frankly I believe that the later are much worse.


Isn't Gluttony a deadly sin? Man America has a lot to answer for! ;(


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## MrsInor

Perhaps this thread should be put to rest. If I knew haw to do a poll - 
No one has opened this can of worms.......
Close it down Yes or No.


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## inceptor

This horse has been beat to death. All this BS and it has changed nothing. 

BTW techtony, I still think you're a good guy.


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## jimb1972

Studies Showing The Relationship Between Childhood Sexual Abuse & Later Involvement In Homosexuality I cant make it a link, but here is a list of studies showing molested boys are about 7 times more likely to be homosexual or bisexual in adulthood. Now find me a real scientific study that shows no link between homosexuality and molestation. As I have said before, I don't give a damn what you do or who you marry but you may want to check your facts before posting I am wrong. The only reason Homosexuality was removed from the list of recognized mental disorders was because of pressure from the gay lobby, and I believe it was not removed in most of Europe until a few years ago.


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## Mish




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## Arizona Infidel

KillSwitch said:


> First, I just read the first couple pages, 28 is just to long to hear about WAAAAHHH why are gays here lets exterminate their immoral souls! Jawohl Mein Führer!!!!
> 
> Honestly, I don't care either way. Hey I'm from the newer generation, the "Target" for Republicans and Democrats, 24 Years old (ok maybe slightly high). THIS is the first of two reasons the Republicans are going to have a hard time ever getting into the Whitehouse again. *My generation DOESN'T CARE*. I don't care if two guys/girls want to get married good for them, I hope they have a happy life (I have been married and divorced and I can tell you it is over rated!! ha). As for the second in my opinion, I am Pro Choice (but just very slightly, this is a whole other conversation), again another subject Republicans/Right winged crazies harp on that the majority of the "recruitable" don't really care either way about. Being so negative pushes people away whether you like it or not.


And the downward spiral continues. 
You are right though. The loss of morals by your generation does spell the end of the Republican Party, and the republic. It is a shame your generation was indoctrinated instead of educated, because you don't know how history is reappearing right now. 
It's OK though. Some of us will die fighting till the end,( this is something else your generation wasn't taught, sadly) like ipeople have numerous times before, and your generation will never know what you never had.


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## charito

techtony said:


> Wow you are the kind of friend I want! Do these close personal gay friends know that you refer to them as girly types? Do they know you also think that they are abnormal? You would not be someone I would consider a friend. So do me a favor.... go up to these close personal friends of yours and tell them what you really think of them.


I'm just describing the type of gays they are. Some gays you can't tell - but when I say "girly-girl" type, they're the ones that are more feminine in their mannerisms than most females (the hips sway are really so pronounced!), they shrieked a lot, and were loud! They're not ashamed to show the world they're gays. They seemed to love the attention. Mind you, I don't think I've seen them in dresses, though they wore make-up.
Oh yeah...I learned to speak the gay language of that era. I don't know how else to describe them.

As for what I think of the gay lifestyle...what's the need to tell them? If they asked, I would've been honest.
How is it different from having a friend who's an adulterer? Do I have to approve of his/her infidelity to be a friend?

I had a very good friend who slept around. She was open about it. She knew I didn't approve of her lifestyle (and she'd tease me for being so old-fashioned)...yet we were very good friends! 
I guess we were both mature for our age thus we were able to handle it _broadmindedly._

I don't have to sacrifice who I am just so to be politically correct! 
Besides, true friendship requires mutual respect.

Btw, the last I've heard of these gays....they're all married. To women! And had fathered children! And apparently they're all MEN now. A mutual friend who gave me the news said that now you couldn't tell that they were once gay!

I'm happy for them.


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## techtony

I know I have been watching this post like a hawk (understatement there). But I agree with msinor... time to put it to rest imho. This thread has shed light on the topic and the true intentions of some, the misunderstood intentions of some and the crazy intentions of some. We have all had our say ad nauseum... trust me, I love to debate but beating the proverbial dead horse solves nothing. So I bow out.


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## PrepperLite

Arizona Infidel said:


> And the downward spiral continues.
> You are right though. The loss of morals by your generation does spell the end of the Republican Party, and the republic. It is a shame your generation was indoctrinated instead of educated, because you don't know how history is reappearing right now.
> It's OK though. Some of us will die fighting till the end,( this is something else your generation wasn't taught, sadly) like ipeople have numerous times before, and your generation will never know what you never had.


You are right, YOUR generation must have been far superior in every way... now can you just die in peace so we can inherit what is rightfully ours (the earth)?

On the question of Morality that's all subjective. Whose morality? Your Bibles? Your God? ha. Bigots and Hypocrites at their finest.


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## littleblackdevil

techtony I agree. My experience with homophobia is that you will be hard pressed to change the minds of people that have no interest in change. I admire your courage and am sorry to hear of your past struggles. 

Now lets get back to prepping!


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## charito

techtony said:


> Badge of honor? I am what I am..... what are you?
> 
> This thread is 29 pages long.... read the rest before you open your yap. I am not wearing a badge of honor by posting on a thread that is pondering if gay people are evil incarnate and the real reason for the downfall of the country. So you are suprised a gay person would defend themselves on such a thread? Or is it that you think gay people should not have that right because they would have to admit to being gay? As said before many times.... is it flaunting if I hold my partners hand i public or refer to them as my partner? I see straight people doing that all the time, are they flaunting their sexuality? Of course not. So I am curious why you think I wear it as a badge of honor...... because trust me it is more like wearing an albatros at times.


It's the PRIDE Parade that's the issue for some - and that includes me. Why do they have to flaunt their sexuality in an almost obscene manner in public? Especially when there are minors and children?


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## Mish

Do you realize you're bitching about the fact that they have a parade? I mean, who the hell cares?! If you lose sleep at night over that, you have your own issues to deal with.


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## jimb1972

charito said:


> It's the PRIDE Parade that's the issue for some - and that includes me. Why do they have to flaunt their sexuality in an almost obscene manner in public? Especially when there are minors and children?


They announce when it is, don't go or take your kids and it shouldn't be a problem. Think of all the cheerleaders on the floats of the regular parades as the hetero version.


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## charito

Mish said:


> Do you realize you're bitching about the fact that they have a parade? I mean, who the hell cares?! If you lose sleep at night over that, you have your own issues to deal with.


Read my post again. And understand what you read.

Anyway, I didn't notice that this thread's been decidedly put to rest. Okay....let it rest.


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## Arizona Infidel

KillSwitch said:


> You are right, YOUR generation must have been far superior in every way... now can you just die in peace so we can inherit what is rightfully ours (the earth)?
> 
> On the question of Morality that's all subjective. Whose morality? Your Bibles? Your God? ha. Bigots and Hypocrites at their finest.


How tolerant of you.


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## Mish

charito said:


> *It's the PRIDE Parade that's the issue for some - and that includes me.*





charito said:


> Read my post again. And understand what you read.


I took your advice and reread your post. My comment is the same.


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## Arizona Infidel

charito said:


> Anyway, I didn't notice that this thread's been decidedly put to rest. Okay....let it rest.


That is a good idea. Maybe all the gay rights activists that joined for this thread will go troll elsewhere.


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## littleblackdevil

Arizona Infidel said:


> That is a good idea. Maybe all the gay rights activists that joined for this thread will go troll elsewhere.


Maybe we'll just stay and learn from each other about our common interests in prepping


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## Slippy

Fubar


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## rice paddy daddy

Slippy said:


> Fubar


 BOHICA.:lol:


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