# Which gun would you choose?



## zoomer to doomer (Sep 13, 2020)

M&P 15 22 or KPOS Scout pistol carbine conversion kit?
















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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

Neither. 

Maybe 9mm as a sidearm. Seems like a fun gun at the range though.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

I had a M&P 15 22 and it was a tack driver. FUN to shoot. NEITHER though as a defensive weapon. Just for fun.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

SW MP 15-22; One fun range gun!


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## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

1911 


Should always be a choice.


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## Triumph (Aug 18, 2020)

If it's for fun go with the M&P. It's a hoot at the range and you don't need a second mortgage to afford ammo.

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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Me? NEITHER.

I have several 22 RF's, both pistol and rifle.

I will however take my S&W stainless 1911, or my S&W 4566 TSW.

I have plenty of S&W pistols, no rifles.

Their AR line is not the best quality, bore sizes are all over the place.


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## Elvis (Jun 22, 2018)

I've held a KPOS with a pistol mounted in it. Clunky, heavy, too wide, and doesn't shoulder well. And it only has the power of the pistol put in it. So about 300 ft lbs of energy with an effective range of about 50 yds.

And why would anyone want a .22 lr for a primary defensive weapon? The M&P 15-22 shoots 22lr shells. If you're going to shoot 22lr a Ruger 10-22 is probably a better choice.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Just say NO to buying S + W products. They appeased the Slick Willie gun agendas of the 1990s. 

The SOBS also bought out Thompson Center, and promptly did away with the lifetime warranty. TC was one of the best run gun companies with customer service unequaled. Send them a firearm for repair and get it back free of charge

If you want SW product, by a nice old used one


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Why is this a first post? Introduce yourself, child, and proceed from there.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Mad Trapper said:


> Just say NO to buying S + W products. They appeased the Slick Willie gun agendas of the 1990s.
> 
> The SOBS also bought out Thompson Center, and promptly did away with the lifetime warranty. TC was one of the best run gun companies with customer service unequaled. Send them a firearm for repair and get it back free of charge
> 
> If you want SW product, by a nice old used one


Agreed. I won't buy another new SW product until they get rid of that unsightly and totally asinine lock hole on the revolvers!!


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

I wouldn’t buy either one.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Mad Trapper said:


> Just say NO to buying S + W products. They appeased the Slick Willie gun agendas of the 1990s.
> 
> The SOBS also bought out Thompson Center, and promptly did away with the lifetime warranty. TC was one of the best run gun companies with customer service unequaled. Send them a firearm for repair and get it back free of charge
> 
> If you want SW product, by a nice old used one


I agree with you.

I use to work with Earl Thompson and Warren Center a long time ago.

The holding companies who buy out places like Smith, rape them for their assets then discard them.

I worked there for a short time when Bangor Punta owned them, management ran around like a chicken with their head cut off.

They tried to cheapen up and shorten production time of everything,

a horror show with the matching up of parts on their signature Model 39 pistol, strictly cosmetic but still yuck!

I got the hell out of there in short order and back to H&R.

They IMHO made the best revolvers in the world, better than Colt's too.

The internals are stronger and better designed than the Colts, have repaired colts on a 10 to 1 bases against the Smiths.

I have been to the Smith armorers school twice in my life, and twice to the AMU's school.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Love my 15-22 and I shoot it more than all my other guns combined. It performs flawlessly and is more accurate than I can shoot. The vast majority of AR parts will fit on it. Mine uses the same trigger (CMC), optics (Aimpoint Pro), safety & grips as my ARs so it makes a great trainer. This is the gun I use to teach newbies how to shoot for the first time and I've never had one not enjoy the experience greatly. The Sparrow suppressor makes it very quiet where that pretty much all you hear is the action cycling. Mine is also a SBR, having an 11" barrel. With suppressor attached, that brings the overall barrel length back to 16". At one time I tried a much shorter 4" barrel but I didn't like the look plus it caused many failures to fire with subsonic ammo. With the 11" barrel, subsonic ammo cycles perfectly.

It is currently configured with a 3x magnifier & tactical light. This is not to look cool as I have no one to impress, as I shoot on my home range. My eyes are getting pretty crappy, so the magnifier helps a lot if I shoot longer range. Otherwise I take it off or flip it to the side. Only reason it is wearing the light is because I've had to take care of some raccoons that killed some of my chickens.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Elvis said:


> And why would anyone want a .22 lr for a primary defensive weapon? The M&P 15-22 shoots 22lr shells. If you're going to shoot 22lr a Ruger 10-22 is probably a better choice.


Who said anything about primary defensive weapon? The OP just asked which of the two would you choose?


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## Alteredstate (Jul 7, 2016)

neither


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## zoomer to doomer (Sep 13, 2020)

Mad Trapper said:


> If you want SW product, by a nice old used one


Thanks for the tip ))

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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

A gun is a tool.
A tool has a purpose.
You've provided no purpose.
Selecting a tool at this point would be irresponsible.

More information is required.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2020)

Obsolete deleted. Can't find the Delete button.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2020)

Zoomer-to-Doomer, if going with a rimfire, get a Ruger 10/22. Every accessory under the sun is available for them. I've owned several. One of my sons just bought one in a take-down configuration -- easily placed in a case; xport to/from range. I've not looked in a forever at what configurations Ruger makes these puppies. One of my 10/22s has a bull barrel; put a decent scope on this one. These Ruger bull barrels are not competition barrels, but due to their mass, they don't heat up and deform as do the regular barrels. Subsonic ammo allows you to take game without notifying everybody that you are going to have squirrel gravy for supper. 

What's the purpose of hyper-velocity .22s in the first place? Don't want to ruin meat. Want more out of a .22, buy a .22 magnum. Talk about a tissue-destroyer! A .22 mag. is a killer. Gator hunters often use them. If killing a varmint at close range, the .22 mag will do the trick. Massad Ayoob called the .22 mag. a "nasty little round". Don't use the .22 mag. on small game you intend to eat. I once turned a rabbit inside-out with one -- total mess (it was getting into my garden = bye-bye).

Zoomer-to-Doomer, why do you want a .22 LR that looks military? I don't understand.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2020)

Kauboy said:


> A gun is a tool.
> A tool has a purpose.
> You've provided no purpose.
> Selecting a tool at this point would be irresponsible.
> ...


Yes. I don't understand why one would have a .22 LR that happened to look like a military rifle. I know that if one were to brandish such a weapon in a military situation, doing so would be an act of suicide. And I don't bluff. Bluffing can get you killed even in a card game on the wrong side of town.

Me, I like a nice wooden stock on a rifle. The more fitted to my body, the better the shootability of the firearm; also, my accuracy is improved. The men of my family liked fine-looking firearms. I like to see a nice grain. Feather grain is superb to me.


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## zoomer to doomer (Sep 13, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Zoomer-to-Doomer, why do you want a .22 LR that looks military? I don't understand.


For fun.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> Zoomer-to-Doomer, why do you want a .22 LR that looks military? I don't understand.


I'll give you my reasons. First of all, unlike the 10/22, the 15-22 shares most parts with an AR. So if your primary defensive weapon is an AR, then you can share parts & move parts around between guns. My primary home defense rifle is an AR in 300 Blackout. My 15-22 is fitted with the same hardware as the AR, thus making the 15-22 a great trainer. When shooting the 15-22, I have the same feel as my AR with the exact same trigger, safety, etc. I shoot the 15-22 for .05 a round. The 300 Blackout costs around .75 a round.

At least for me & the folks I know, plinking with a 22lr is just plain ole fun. It is very affordable too. And if you also shoot ARs, then having a plinker that functions almost identically to your AR make great sense. And as a side, this plinker is plenty accurate to also be used for small varmints & small game. That I know from experience.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Saturday, Mrs S and I ventured to a high end firearms dealer to look at a Volquartzen VM 22 Superlite ,22LR for Benchrest Competition Shooting. (Not that I'm some class A competitor but since watching sports is not an option moving forward, I'm looking at a new hobby!)

The firearms is extremely balanced, smooth light trigger (Yes they allowed me to dry fire it) and a very comfortable stock.

The price tag was stupid high so I'll pass for now, (Until some rich uncle I don't know dies and leaves me a chunck of cash) but dang, this rifle was sweet!









https://volquartsen.com/families/vm-22-rifle


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Slippy said:


> Saturday, Mrs S and I ventured to a high end firearms dealer to look at a Volquartzen VM 22 Superlite ,22LR for Benchrest Competition Shooting. (Not that I'm some class A competitor but since watching sports is not an option moving forward, I'm looking at a new hobby!)


Sad part of my aging is nowadays, pretty much any gun I shoot is more accurate than I am, meaning I'd be just as accurate using my 15-22 as I'd be with a Volquartzen. So for me, I concentrate on features. I love the features associated with the AR platform, especially when used on a SBR with suppressor. It is so nice to shoot without the hearing protection and to shoot without bothering others. I had high hopes the Republicans were going to make ownership of suppressors easier but typical of all politicians... they are worthless.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

If this is just a "gun for fun", I'd choose the 15-22.
It will give you trigger time behind an AR clone to familiarize yourself with function and features. They are fun to shoot, and a cheap way to spend an afternoon with the family.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

The thing about benchrest shooting is that it takes “you” out of the equation. Your wallet size is the primary factor in how high you score. Expensive hi powered scopes compensate for old eyes and expensive rests and 2 oz. triggers make for very accurate shots. I know several individuals that have $700 rifle rests (yes $700 invested into the custom made front rest) and one guy that has a 35 pound rifle. I’m very happy when I shoot a 250 score but the big boys are looking for 250s and 25 10x scores. But that takes big big bucks.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Chiefster23 said:


> The thing about benchrest shooting is that it takes "you" out of the equation.


Agree. I only use a rest & paper targets when sighting in an optic, otherwise I'm shooting torso targets & metal circle plates. If I hit the 3" metal disc, then I've done my job. I'm afraid I'd get awfully depressed if I was shooting for score.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> If this is just a "gun for fun", I'd choose the 15-22.
> It will give you trigger time behind an AR clone to familiarize yourself with function and features. They are fun to shoot, and a cheap way to spend an afternoon with the family.


And besides that, as I stated earlier, I think the 15-22 is one of the best rifles to introduce new shooters to the art & fun of shooting. Being mostly polymer, it is lightweight. Being an AR clone, the ergonomics make it easy for a new shooter to hold, aim & shoot accurately... especially if you use a red dot sight. I have had great luck with the TRS-25 red dot. Even today it still runs around $80 and I've never had a moments trouble from mine.

Anyone who uses & cleans a 15-22 can then easily transition to owning an AR.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Even though I do not own one, the 15-22 is a very good training tool if you have AR's and want to train without the higher cost of using 223/5.56 ammo.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

I'm also in the "neither" group. I have a Kimber 1911 and a SIG P238. It's not that I'm an "automatic lover," it's just that I want to use the right tool for the job presented. If some bully got 'handsy' a few slashes would be the choice for that attack.

As I've said, clothing is going to determine quite a lot. Right now it's summer and I just pack the SIG.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

More research is needed so you have better options.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> If this is just a "gun for fun", I'd choose the 15-22.
> It will give you trigger time behind an AR clone to familiarize yourself with function and features. They are fun to shoot, and a cheap way to spend an afternoon with the family.


I agree, I've owned the 15-22 for a number of years and it is a solid performer.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Browning


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

I am not a huge fan of tacticool firearms (although I do have few) but if you are, God bless ya. Anything that gets you out to range more often is the perfect firearm to own. For me, that is a lever action carbine (specifically anything by Henry).


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

So called tactical rifles serve a function. If selected properly they will out perform anything for the job. the AR platform is designed for many duties . Should you pick one try to have a goal in mind a job for it. But don't get to wrapped up in all the details.
No firearm in this world has more options for changes to make it fit you needs or dreams. No firearm in history is easier for most anyone to do the work them self.


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## ActionJackson (Sep 4, 2020)

zoomer to doomer said:


> M&P 15 22 or KPOS Scout pistol carbine conversion kit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since I already own an M&P 15 22P that's the gun I'd choose. Mine is very compact; reliable; has two 25rd mags; and is going to be very quiet once I get my new suppressor. .22LR is a small and light round so I can carry twice as much without taking up too much space or adding too much weight. Very good choice, in my opinion. I love my M&P 15 .223 but in a SHTF situation where hiking distances is in play ... I think I have to go with the .22lr.


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## binaryboris (May 20, 2015)

I am not familiar with the KPOS Scout pistol carbine conversion kit, but I have put well over 10,000 rounds through my M&P 15-22 and it is an extraordinarily reliable firearm. I have "a few" other firearms (hypothetically speaking) all the way through the big-boy calibers, and the 15-22 is still by far the most fun to shoot. It's also quite accurate. Using a cheap red dot and firing around 2 rounds per second, I am able to consistently place rounds inside a 6" circle at 25 yards. If you take your time it is not a problem at all to shrink that circle to 2-3" at 25 yards (roughly the same size as the red dot).

I have rarely experienced any failures to fire and in the rare cases I have, it was most likely due to the tendency of 22lr to be somewhat less reliable on average than centerfire cartridges. If I had to guess at how many times I have experienced failures to fire that were entirely caused by a mechanical issue with the rifle itself, I could probably count them on one hand ... out of well over 10,000 rounds fired.

If you do go with the M&P 15-22, be sure you only use original manufacturer magazines to maximize your reliability. I have had some issues with off-brand magazines, but the factory S&W 15-22 magazines work like a dream.



zoomer to doomer said:


> M&P 15 22 or KPOS Scout pistol carbine conversion kit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

A .22 beats a rock. But if you are going to bet your life and your families life on a .22. Buy life insurance you will need it.


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## binaryboris (May 20, 2015)

I should add that I only mention the accuracy estimates because those are the types of estimates that would matter in a personal defense type setting. Yes I know that 22lr is not the ideal self defense round, and it is not my go to for home defense, but I am confident that this great little rifle could put 25 holes in a would be assailant in a short amount of time. Conversely, with a well placed and patient single shot it can take care of critters like squirrels or rabbits if you needed to hunt for a little food.


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## binaryboris (May 20, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> A .22 beats a rock. But if you are going to bet your life and your families life on a .22. Buy life insurance you will need it.


Point well taken and I agree to some extent. I personally carry 9mm and 40S&W for home defense, with an AR-15 loaded with Hornady TAP 55g Urban defense rounds (designed to avoid overpenetration) readily available.

My parents are in their 70s and lack the hand strength to rack the slide of larger caliber firearms (and probably would have issues with recoil), so they use 22lr as it is a round they can handle and be assured of reasonable accuracy under a situation of distress.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

binaryboris said:


> Point well taken and I agree to some extent. I personally carry 9mm and 40S&W for home defense, with an AR-15 loaded with Hornady TAP 55g Urban defense rounds (designed to avoid overpenetration) readily available.
> 
> My parents are in their 70s and lack the hand strength to rack the slide of larger caliber firearms (and probably would have issues with recoil), so they use 22lr as it is a round they can handle and be assured of reasonable accuracy under a situation of distress.


I'm 72 and prefer my M1 Garand, Colt Government Model 45 Auto, and Remington 870 12 ga.

Wife is 74, and her shotgun is a 20 ga Youth Model Winchester 1300, farm gun is a 38 Special snubby, main carry is a Sig P-365 9MM.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I'm 72 and prefer my M1 Garand, Colt Government Model 45 Auto, and Remington 870 12 ga.
> 
> Wife is 74, and her shotgun is a 20 ga Youth Model Winchester 1300, farm gun is a 38 Special snubby, main carry is a Sig P-365 9MM.


I am 79, and prefer an M1 Garand, then an M-14 followed by 1911 in 45 ACP, and that by a 870 if a shotgun is needed.

From now until spring I will carry a backup, a S&W 642 in 38 special or a Mod 60 in same round.

Main carry will be a Colt commander or a Sig P-228.


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## binaryboris (May 20, 2015)

That is awesome and I hope when I am in my 70s I can still use the same wide range of firearms I do now. My parents both have physical limitations that make calibers larger than 22lr difficult to operate. My point is that it is pointless to give someone a firearm they lack the physical ability to operate, as they will not be able to use it effectively (or at all) and could end up simply arming their attacker. Firearms are an extension of the body, so it makes sense to take into account what a person's body is capable of accommodating.

Just like if a person is incapable of managing the recoil of a .357 Magnum revolver to where they can take effective follow up shots, they are better off with a .38.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

binaryboris said:


> That is awesome and I hope when I am in my 70s I can still use the same wide range of firearms I do now. My parents both have physical limitations that make calibers larger than 22lr difficult to operate. My point is that it is pointless to give someone a firearm they lack the physical ability to operate, as they will not be able to use it effectively (or at all) and could end up simply arming their attacker. Firearms are an extension of the body, so it makes sense to take into account what a person's body is capable of accommodating.
> 
> Just like if a person is incapable of managing the recoil of a .357 Magnum revolver to where they can take effective follow up shots, they are better off with a .38.


You are right in all respects.


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## closetprepper2020 (Sep 17, 2020)

I have the S&W 9MM Shield as my side arm and the S&W AR-15. The AR is a good "base" out of the box but ended up spending more money dialing it in. (Stock, rails, scope, etc.)
I'm with Elvis, My 22 choice is my Ruger 10-22 take down. Awesome gun!
As for why the AR15-22? because in some states, that is all you can get. I cant get an AR-15 anymore in my state but I can get the AR15-22.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

binaryboris said:


> That is awesome and I hope when I am in my 70s I can still use the same wide range of firearms I do now. My parents both have physical limitations that make calibers larger than 22lr difficult to operate. My point is that it is pointless to give someone a firearm they lack the physical ability to operate, as they will not be able to use it effectively (or at all) and could end up simply arming their attacker. Firearms are an extension of the body, so it makes sense to take into account what a person's body is capable of accommodating.
> 
> Just like if a person is incapable of managing the recoil of a .357 Magnum revolver to where they can take effective follow up shots, they are better off with a .38.


Correct. A person should use whatever they can operate successfully.
My wife is disabled and about 15 or so years ago could no longer operate my 1911's. That's when I bought her the 38 revolver. Light enough for her, plus relatively little recoil (compared to a 45 auto).
A few years ago she joined a nationwide outfit called The Well Armed Women, and through them was able to try a different bunch of handguns.
She settled on the Sig P-265, she can operate the slide, the 9MM recoil is tolerable and it has an excellent trigger.

We live an a very low crime, rural area, and even I, the Old Soldier, mostly carry a Ruger LCP2 .380 auto.
It's on my hip right now as I'm getting ready to enter the grocery store. Bush's beans are 10 cans for $10, so I'm getting 30 cans. Plus a 25 pound bag of rice.

The LCP2 might be something older folks should consider.
Not the LCP, but the LCP2, that is the improved model. That also now comes in 22LR, a brand new model. I'm thinking about getting one for farm duty since I gave my wife my Charter Arms 22 snubnose revolver.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

rice paddy daddy said:


> We live an a very low crime, rural area, and even I, the Old Soldier, mostly carry a Ruger LCP2 .380 auto.


I'm with you, I just chose a differing manufacturer. I carry a SIG P238. With a light-weight Kevlar holster over my right hip I barely know I'm wearing it. If anything I'm having a problem finding that "be all" storage space for a spare magazine. If I change shirts or jackets I have to remember to take the spare magazine with me. It's not just the extra rounds, but who knows if the single magazine you have loaded into the pistol has reliable feed lips.

Having said that, I believe I am in a "lower" crime area. My wife and I shop in one of the local malls and it boils down to one shot stopping. I'm also a friend of a wandering munitions salesman who drops off singular needs.

If someone here asked me for the most credible survivalist attribute I could name, I would have to say it's an "exit sign."


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

The Tourist said:


> It's not just the extra rounds, but who knows if the single magazine you have loaded into the pistol has reliable feed lips.
> 
> "


By shooting it a lot? Why would you carry a magazine that you didn't know feeds reliably?


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

stevekozak said:


> By shooting it a lot? Why would you carry a magazine that you didn't know feeds reliably?


And if you didn't shoot a lot, you'd never know...............


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

stevekozak said:


> By shooting it a lot? Why would you carry a magazine that you didn't know feeds reliably?


Just having a magazine loose in your game bag might dent a feed lip. I used to just insert two or three rounds in a magazine for a trip to the range. This is one item where you might give it a cursory glance and just assume it's right.

I've also seen guys shooting targets for speed and time. They'll slam a magazine into the pistol so that even made me cringe.

Personally I would make two bags. One for competitive shooting, and another for perfect magazines for the bedroom.


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