# Let's Talk About PTSD Fraud



## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

I'm a 25 year Army Veteran with 7 years and 3 months (cumulative) in combat zones. I have seen some stuff. Others have seen MORE stuff. Most haven't seen ANYTHING. Don't get me wrong - There are some veterans who are *MESSED UP.* But like myself, the vast majority are not. So why are 32% of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans getting disability checks for PTSD? Because its free money. They have their lips wrapped firmly around the government tit and are sucking for all they're worth - just like the rest of the food stamp/welfare freeloaders in this country. And that's rights where the government wants them - dependent.

Now I can hear you all saying "but I really AM messed up.", or "My cousin Bob really DOES have PTSD." Those of you that served know the score. I can name off 30 people that I KNOW who are currently collecting PTSD disability money, and they never once left the safety and security of the FOB. Conversely, in all my years, I can personally think of only three people who truly have shellshock/battle fatigue/PTSD, and two of them DENY it and aren't getting an ounce of money or help. The other one suck-started his .45 about four years ago.

There are a multitude of ways for veterans to justify selling their souls for these few meager pieces of silver. A) They know they don't have PTSD, but think that they are owed MORE for their service than they would otherwise get. B) They're just dumb enough to believe the brainwashing about how messed up they're going to be when the get back home. And C) They Know they don't have PTSD but they have no problem lying and just plain sticking it to the taxpayers.

What does all this mean going forward? In the wake of the recent shootings in El Paso and Dayton, all the politicians, including President Trump, are talking about "Mental Health." The progressives are predictable talking about BANNING EVERY GUN. Everyone knows this isn't going to happen, but they ARE going to get a bone this time. There's just too much momentum not to. They MIGHT get a national high capacity magazine ban, but I don't think so. EVERYONE can get behind* "crazy people shouldn't buy guns."* Sounds reasonable, right? Sounds responsible, right? Sounds just plain sensible! Here's what makes this thinking dangerous and insidious:

How are they [the ATF] going to decide if a person is crazy? For starters, mental health will be integrated into the NICS check. This means that your medical records will be thrust into what amounts to the public domain. *Bye-bye HIPPA, *and no more guns if you're sucking on the PTSD tit. Alternately, you may be required to provide a "Certificate of Mental Wellness" at the point of purchase. This won't be free! Your local head-shrink will likely have to get anywhere from $200 to $800 for this certification. A significant financial barrier to gun ownership. Couple this level of bureaucratic subjectivity with an ambiguous "Red Flag" law, and the county librarian will be able to bust into a veteran's home and take all their guns AND cocoa puff, and they'll get a medal and an ata-boy for their effort.

I'm a fiscally conservative libertarian. I'm all for letting people believe what they want and doing what they want. But I just can not abide a cheater. Especially when it hits so close to home. I sell guns retail, and I will not sell a gun to a person I know is getting a PTSD check. Further, I point out to them that they are committing a felony by lying on block 11f of the 4473.

Just some thoughts to chew on. Hope you're all having a great day.

James


----------



## pikepole20 (Nov 27, 2017)

I agree 100%. This mental health issue concerns me more than any magazine limits, pistol grip, flash suppressor or fill in the blank tweaking of what is an assault rifle.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Jem said:


> For starters, mental health will be integrated into the NICS check. This means that your medical records will be thrust into what amounts to the public domain.


This has concerned me for quite sometime. My concern is that the government will decide "who's crazy" with a broad stroke just to make it simple.

For example, most of you know I am a hypochondriac. Oh, it's now called "health anxiety" to be politically correct, but what's a sloppy definition mean to a gun grabber? Won't they fall back on the basic premise that "_any crazy is too much crazy_"?

And once the gun-grabbers find out how easy it is to disenfranchise anyone with a handgun, pretty soon your 4473 form will be shredded due to 'color blindness.'


----------



## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

@Jem : I'm in agreement with what you're saying. People shouldn't be 'sucking off the government teet', as you say. I don't doubt there are people like that out there who really don't need any help, but just want to 'doe-re-me' _so fake-is me-doe_

However, 'fear of harm' as a result of PTSD is real and can ruin the lives of individuals and their families. They might not be the kinds of people who twitch or jump under tables at sound of loud noises, but still in all, they have real symptoms that are ruining their lives. They can explode and go off into tyrades over nothing at all--like the more severe forms of bipolar disorder. Don't ask me how I know (family member or two) So, I think we need to be careful about saying these people are few and far inbetween.

Edit: there's a "new" drug out there for this:Ketamine. However it's not been approved by the FDA as yet. It's expensive but can work wonders, I am here to tell you. Hopefully once it's approved, the cost will go down.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Jem said:


> I'm a 25 year Army Veteran with 7 years and 3 months (cumulative) in combat zones. I have seen some stuff. Others have seen MORE stuff. Most haven't seen ANYTHING. Don't get me wrong - There are some veterans who are *MESSED UP.* But like myself, the vast majority are not. So why are 32% of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans getting disability checks for PTSD? Because its free money. They have their lips wrapped firmly around the government tit and are sucking for all they're worth - just like the rest of the food stamp/welfare freeloaders in this country. And that's rights where the government wants them - dependent.
> 
> Now I can hear you all saying "but I really AM messed up.", or "My cousin Bob really DOES have PTSD." Those of you that served know the score. I can name off 30 people that I KNOW who are currently collecting PTSD disability money, and they never once left the safety and security of the FOB. Conversely, in all my years, I can personally think of only three people who truly have shellshock/battle fatigue/PTSD, and two of them DENY it and aren't getting an ounce of money or help. The other one suck-started his .45 about four years ago.
> 
> ...


Good narrative. Thanks for sharing. We recently had a young family friend pass after a long slow death with some variant ALS due to huffing smoke off the burn pits in Iraq or the anthrax vaccine..or perhaps a combo of the two. Leads me to think some cases of PTSD might also be related to the exotic vaccines as oppoed to up close blood and guts. Chum from the sports grill works for a big Construction Company that builds small outpatient VA clinics all over the place..but highly conentrated in S. Texas for some reason. He says they are called "nut huts." The young vet shows up with insomnia or other complaints and they get them hooked on psycho drugs and take away their 2 A. freedoms. It just dont seem right. Back to PTSD..I cant think of many old cops who dont have a version of it...but they are too smart to tell anybody. lol.


----------



## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Jem said:


> I'm a 25 year Army Veteran with 7 years and 3 months (cumulative) in combat zones. I have seen some stuff. Others have seen MORE stuff. Most haven't seen ANYTHING. Don't get me wrong - There are some veterans who are *MESSED UP.* But like myself, the vast majority are not. So why are 32% of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans getting disability checks for PTSD? Because its free money. They have their lips wrapped firmly around the government tit and are sucking for all they're worth - just like the rest of the food stamp/welfare freeloaders in this country. And that's rights where the government wants them - dependent.
> 
> Now I can hear you all saying "but I really AM messed up.", or "My cousin Bob really DOES have PTSD." Those of you that served know the score. I can name off 30 people that I KNOW who are currently collecting PTSD disability money, and they never once left the safety and security of the FOB. Conversely, in all my years, I can personally think of only three people who truly have shellshock/battle fatigue/PTSD, and two of them DENY it and aren't getting an ounce of money or help. The other one suck-started his .45 about four years ago.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, if you really only know three ex-military persons with PTSD, then you are either not really a 25 year Army veteran, had zero friends in the Army, or are so totally clueless as to be useless in the field. Now, none of that means that there is not fraud in the system or that people with PTSD should necessarily get benefits because of it. PTSD is a very real phenomenon, and probably most soldiers who saw actual combat has some degree of it. Which does not make them entitled to extra compensation, necessarily. War is a part of human life. It just is.


----------



## gyro_cfi (Jan 12, 2016)

Main problem is with big government employees trying to grow the government. My PTSD story: I served in the Army and got out in 1985 at the rank of CW2. Thirty years later I'm in the unemployment office filing for unemployment and am sat down across from a "VA Specialist". 
He's shocked that I haven't been rated by the VA for disabilities I incurred in service. So, he's filling out a referral form and asked me 3 to 4 different ways about what possible terrible things I've seen, bad service related dreams, emotional triggers that might be service related. Comes right out and tells me he is trying to set me up for PTSD benefits. 
By the way, no military conflicts were occurring while I was in and I served most of my time in Hawaii as a UH-1 pilot. Somebody had to do the tough jobs. Yes, thank you for my service , it was hell. I do get benefits for a real injury, I can't hear worth a damn anymore.


----------



## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

Annie - I knew that this post would be touchy, and maybe even inflammatory. I absolutely acknowledge that PTSD is real, and can take many forms. I apologize for the angst I caused you personally, but not for my broader generalizations. Also, I wished I had used the less vulgar word "teet." I should have known better, having grown up on a dairy farm.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

stevekozak said:


> In my opinion, if you really only know three ex-military persons with PTSD, then you are either not really a 25 year Army veteran, had zero friends in the Army, or are so totally clueless as to be useless in the field. Now, none of that means that there is not fraud in the system or that people with PTSD should necessarily get benefits because of it. PTSD is a very real phenomenon, and probably most soldiers who saw actual combat has some degree of it. Which does not make them entitled to extra compensation, necessarily. War is a part of human life. It just is.


First, I know Jem, personally. I'm not going into his background as I don't remember him doing it, but he is the real deal.

I've seen Air Force reservists come back from a three-month deployment to Afghanistan and claim PTSD. They never left the airfield that was far removed from fighting. They were just looking for the money.
Over half of the people with whom I work are vets. Several are drawing the "crazy check," as it is called. A handful is "PTSD," while the rest learned from them how to scam the system. Many of the scammers were warned by me that they'll be on a list that will cause them to lose their weapons. To a man, I was told that the certainty of the check was worth the possibility of losing their weapons. 
Jem and I live in a veteran-heavy population. We have a large pool from which to determine our thoughts.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> First, I know Jem, personally. I'm not going into his background as I don't remember him doing it, but he is the real deal.
> 
> I've seen Air Force reservists come back from a three-month deployment to Afghanistan and claim PTSD. They never left the airfield that was far removed from fighting. They were just looking for the money.
> Over half of the people with whom I work are vets. Several are drawing the "crazy check," as it is called. A handful is "PTSD," while the rest learned from them how to scam the system. Many of the scammers were warned by me that they'll be on a list that will cause them to lose their weapons. To a man, I was told that the certainty of the check was worth the possibility of losing their weapons.
> Jem and I live in a veteran-heavy population. We have a large pool from which to determine our thoughts.


One of my old pals was a Viet Nam Vet and PTSD sufferer. He was drawing some kinda check but wanted a bigger one...which he said came from convincing them he was fully crazy. Well they gave him the big check and thats when he lost his guns. Then the idiot claimed it was my fault. He was crazy. He didnt get that way in battle...some of his fellow jyrenes did not like his attitude and nearly stomped him to death in the barracks.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Here is the problem with PTSD. First it has been used as a cash cow for some. At one time PTSD was ignored and a lot of seriously ill military people suffered even died. bring in the over reaction . PTSD became pretty much automatic at least for 6 months to a year.
People get use the the money coming in fast. 
Bring me 10 soldiers with Claims of PTSD. With some interview time pretty much with certainty I can tell you who is seriously effected by it. What I most likely will not be able to do is pick the fakes. As a front line leader you do not make the call. If a soldier is referred to you , the soldier comes to you or you think a soldier is effected by PTSD there is one option. Report it up the chain and arrange medical evaluation right away. In many cases holding that soldier until they can be seen by medical personal is required.
When you have history with that soldier you are at least early on in a better place to get a feel for what is going on. That does not mean you pass judgement on validity of the medical condition.
The Army and VA clearly adopted a policy of better to have a few collecting undeserved payments than to turn away a person in true need of help. A 100% turn around from the past. Most Soldiers that I had first hand knowledge of receiving help for PTSD addressed early on. Were off DA payments in under a year. Some are still fighting a battle to live a normal life. Others learned to face the demon and move on.
As far as it applies to gun rights. You must never forget this statement and who made it. No one on the left disagreed with her and the head of the DHS said veterans were the greatest threat to America .

Dianne Feinstein:
"All vets are mentally ill in some way and government should prevent them from owning firearms."


----------



## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Denton said:


> First, I know Jem, personally. I'm not going into his background as I don't remember him doing it, but he is the real deal.
> 
> I've seen Air Force reservists come back from a three-month deployment to Afghanistan and claim PTSD. They never left the airfield that was far removed from fighting. They were just looking for the money.
> Over half of the people with whom I work are vets. Several are drawing the "crazy check," as it is called. A handful is "PTSD," while the rest learned from them how to scam the system. Many of the scammers were warned by me that they'll be on a list that will cause them to lose their weapons. To a man, I was told that the certainty of the check was worth the possibility of losing their weapons.
> Jem and I live in a veteran-heavy population. We have a large pool from which to determine our thoughts.


I'll take your word for his history. Out of curiosity, as you have such a large "pool" in your locale, do you know more than 3 ex-military persons who have PTSD? What percentage of your "pool" have been in actual combat?


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

stevekozak said:


> I'll take your word for his history. Out of curiosity, as you have such a large "pool" in your locale, do you know more than 3 ex-military persons who have PTSD? What percentage of your "pool" have been in actual combat?


Have PTSD or is drawing the check?

When you say in actual combat, do you mean outside the wire, so to speak?


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> One of my old pals was a Viet Nam Vet and PTSD sufferer. He was drawing some kinda check but wanted a bigger one...which he said came from convincing them he was fully crazy. Well they gave him the big check and thats when he lost his guns. Then the idiot claimed it was my fault. He was crazy. He didnt get that way in battle...some of his fellow jyrenes did not like his attitude and nearly stomped him to death in the barracks.


A former friend who was a Vietnam vet made it a point to act aggressive and unstable at work. Every time he had an outburst, he'd wink at me. He got his full disability. 
He is a former friend because he got busted for child molestation. I have a problem with Chesters.


----------



## Yavanna (Aug 27, 2018)

The sad thing about the world is that most people seem to have lost the shame. 
I do not live in the USA, but here everyone has depression (specially government workers and teachers) and all of them get some time off work under the pretense of being depressed. The thing is, most of them have nothing and just want some paid "vacations", while others who really are sick and in dire need of help get nothing. 
So while someone is scamming to get some benefit by declaring mental problems, someone else is trully suffering .


----------



## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

I know several who are scamming, a couple that are legit, and one who claims he is scamming that I suspect is the most legit case I know personally. If there is money involved people will lie to get it. (I do not receive any service related disability payments)


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Denton said:


> Many of the scammers were warned by me that they'll be on a list that will cause them to lose their weapons. To a man, I was told that the certainty of the check was worth the possibility of losing their weapons.


that is sad....


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Maine-Marine said:


> that is sad....


I know. I have had to disassociate myself with them.


----------



## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

Seeing as the thread has run its course for a few hours, let me weigh in on a couple points - 

- My personal experience is my own. I will never have the same circumstance or experience as the person to my left, or the person on my right. I can only offer my opinion (and honestly, the original post is really just an opinion) as I see and understand what I believe to be facts.

- Some replies have leaned towards the “better to pay out too much, than not help soldiers in need.” While this is a laudable attitude, and one I support in principal, it just isn’t fiscally sustainable. To complete the loop on this sentiment, one would have to say “better to pay 100% of veterans 100% of all possible benefits....”. There has to be a practical limit to the tax payers responsibility.

- In answer to the reply that doubted my credibility and authenticity, what can I say... Arguing with and debating with “Internet people” is pointless. I just laid out my own observations, ruminations and opinions on a topic, and then waited to see what others had to say on the topic. Their sceptisism is a perfectly legitimate response, and they’ve been part of PF a lot longer than I have.

- I will, however, provide some additional requested info on the available pool of ex-military people who I interact with on a regular basis. I’ll limit my pool to those I work with, am neighbors with, go to church with, or see at least once a week (barber shop, gun range, etc...)... that would equal 17 retirees (including myself) and ~20 (+/- 3) non-retiree veterans. Of the retirees, only two (myself included) aren’t drawing some kind of disability check. I only personally know one person with an overt physical military disability (he’s missing a leg).

- I think it might be advantageous to spell out something I may have taken for common knowledge. Not everyone here has a military background. There are retirees, there are non-retiree veterans, and there are retired veterans. Each category is entitled to diffent benefits and entitlements. In my case, I am a retiree and a combat veteran. I get a retirement check for my years of work, not any injuries or disabilities. A combat veteran, if suitable injured, is entitled to a medical retirement or diasabilites payout regardless of length of service. Medical services for these individuals are often limited to VA facilities. As a retiree, I have Tricare insurance, and can get medical treatment where I chose (mostly). When a soldier approaches retirement, it is common to start working on their “settlement”. This endeavor is often aided by mercenary lawyers who are expert in getting maximum results. After 20 years of service, a soldier is eligible for 50% of their base pay as their retirement. A mediocre lawyer can often get 75-95% in medical disabilities. Which way do you suppose humans go?


----------



## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Denton said:


> Have PTSD or is drawing the check?
> 
> When you say in actual combat, do you mean outside the wire, so to speak?


Has PTSD.
Yes, outside the wire, so to speak. People shooting at them. Them shooting at people. Taking artillery fire, etc.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

In the early 1980's I began to realize there may be something wrong with me. I thought maybe I was just crazy.
But when I saw a list of the symptoms of what was called at the time Post Vietnam Syndrome, I felt relief that I wasn't alone, nor crazy.

It wasn't until '85, faced with a divorce, that I went to the VA Vet Center program. I received several years of counselling and therapy, but never took the drugs they offered, nor did I apply for a disability for PTSD.
I could function in society (although I didn't want anything to do with it) and got along fairly well.
The best thing I did was to completely abstain from alcohol, and find Jesus.

In 2010, during debate on a defense bill, the Dems added an amendment to bar any vets with PTSD from owning firearms. It was contentious, and the Senator that managed to get it shot down was John McCain.
But that really worried me. Although I never went for an official diagnosis and collect disability, there still is a thick file on me at a certain Vet Center.

When I signed up for the VA healthcare system, there was a multi page questionnaire to fill out. About the 3rd or 4th page I noticed questions that may look innocent to a casual observer, but I had the experience to see they were fishing for PTSD. Of course, I knew what they were looking for and didn't give it to them.

For the record, I served 2 years, 8 months, and 28 days. When my year in Nam was up, they asked me if I wanted to re-up. I told 'em I wanted to go home.


----------



## Gunn (Jan 1, 2016)

I see these young bucks I work with that are vets. I see they get a disability, and I can't figure why and they still work. Here I am 66 years old, served in combat and I thought I was doing pretty good. I have two artificial knees and two hips. All service connected, due to a hard fall with a partial shute opening. I NEVER asked for any disability. But last year they started on me (VA Rep) about what percentage do I have? I told them zero. I have a disability, but my employer works with me. I am a Respiratory Therapist and they make sure I am sitting whenever possible. If I get where I can't work any more due my disabilities, maybe I will talk to them. That is what disability is supposed to mean. I thought. I have a problem with all the PTSD survivors out there. I see a lot of vets, but I can not really see all the claims of PTSD being real. My BIL suffers from it, And he waited 45 years to file a claim. He should of done it years ago. PTSD is out there but I don't think it is as common as reported.


----------



## stowlin (Apr 25, 2016)

There is a woman in her mid to late 30’s in California that brags about her service connection and it’s $3600 a month she gets for it since a commanding officer GRABBED a rubber band and shot it at her ass and gave her PTSD for life. Makes me sick.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

How much VA disability compensation service members gets is often a lot less than what you think. How the percentage is figured is also something many do not understand. When you hear that a person is getting 1,000's of dollars a month for a disability it may not be true.
Even some one with major life restricting injuries that are clearly visible does not get near what you might think. Each case is some what different. And a injury does not always end up with compensation. Any disability amount assigned can be and is at time reviewed. In my case I was awarded a disability for shoulder injury. I chose surgery to try and fix it . Ireland medical center Fort Knox fixed it. So while an award was made none was ever paid. I am ok with that I wanted it fixed. This is not a law suit , the VA does not award pain and suffering.
To give an example of how it works I do have a permanent disability awarded at 20% the shoulder was assigned at 20%. The two of them added up do not make a 40% disability. It would have been about 30% max.
The check for the 20% is not a big one. You also must remember it is deducted from retirement pay. You can choose to not have it deducted but it makes no sense to do so. The advantage is the DA is non taxable .
The number that I had first hand knowledge of being paid for PTSD to some soldiers was $695 a month and that was not a permanent award. Any VA disability can be reviewed and the out come can very depending on who does the review.
There are a few on this sight that have a lot more inside knowledge of how VA compensation works than I they work for the VA. I just caution people that what you hear and the facts are often not even close.
Like him or not . President Trump has forced one heck of a change at the VA. So any vet not going to the VA out of anger from past treatment should reconsider.
For some PTSD is real the effects of it on a persons life very. Treatment is not a one size fits all. No one knows why PTS effects one and not the other, a question we will never have answered.


----------



## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

Has anyone noted the "ad choice" selections that popped up over this thread?









Disabilities are BIG BUSINESS. Not just the disabled cash in.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Jem said:


> Has anyone noted the "ad choice" selections that popped up over this thread?
> 
> View attachment 99607
> 
> ...


 Any time money is involved there will be scams. Sadly many that should get help are cheated by the system and then the lawyers get involved. Then often lawyers and jurors cheat the system. It is a never ending rat race. The VA compensation system is not easy to work with. It is getting better.
When I see all the real scam artist and ways tax payer money is pasted out in other programs I am not going to get as up set if a few in the the VA system get money they should not. I am more concerned that those that have it coming get what they should.
You want to tackle scams go look at medicare the list is endless. As for the ads . That pays the bills here.


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Well, I never served in combat but I know some old Vietnam vets from my old days and I can say PTSD exists. Not all of course, but some are truly effected. I am also sure that if it's a government maintenance program it can, and will be, scammed and abused at taxpayer expense, as well as poorly managed with little oversight. 

That said, with regards to "Red Flag Laws and the PTSD implications, do we really want the government and it's incompetent bureaucrats, particularly the socialists now in place, and knowing their agenda, deciding who among us, all of us, is crazy and who is not? No one wants a crazy SOB to have a gun, but "Red Flag Laws" are a slippery and dangerous slope. Keep in mind that kid in Florida who shot up the school had all kinds of red flags that were largely ignored. We will rue the day if that legislation is ever passed.


----------



## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Prepared One said:


> Well, I never served in combat but I know some old Vietnam vets from my old days and I can say PTSD exists. Not all of course, but some are truly effected. I am also sure that if it's a government maintenance program it can, and will be, scammed and abused at taxpayer expense, as well as poorly managed with little oversight.
> 
> That said, with regards to "Red Flag Laws and the PTSD implications, do we really want the government and it's incompetent bureaucrats, particularly the socialists now in place, and knowing their agenda, deciding who among us, all of us, PTSD's included, is crazy and who is not? No one wants a crazy SOB to have a gun, but "Red Flag Laws" are a slippery and dangerous slope. Keep in mind that kid in Florida who shot up the school had all kinds of red flags that were largely ignored. We will rue the day that if that legislation is ever passed.


Red Flag laws are a real threat to our freedoms. All one has to do is say, "Uh, yeah, I have heard Prepared One talk about how he could use his gun to clear out anyone that opposes him. I have seen that he has many guns. I am fearful he may do something", and wahLah&#8230;.Prepared One suddenly is deprived of his COTUS right to keep and bear arms. It is a scary situation. It is so dangerous because all it takes is one person that does not like you to potentially render you armless for at least a short duration......in which space said someone or others might decide to take advantage of the sudden "gunfree zone" that is your home or person. :sad2:


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I know a local female, who was a medical tech for three years in the Army, 1974 to 77. Never left the States.
I met her in the American Legion, where, for a time she was Service Officer. That is a person who is half-assed trained to help members get VA benefits.
She used the knowledge she learned to file claim after claim, and today she is rated 100% disabled. For what, I do not know.
This is one vet who is clearly scamming the system.


----------



## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

Jem said:


> Annie - I knew that this post would be touchy, and maybe even inflammatory. I absolutely acknowledge that PTSD is real, and can take many forms. I apologize for the angst I caused you personally, but not for my broader generalizations. Also, I wished I had used the less vulgar word "teet." I should have known better, having grown up on a dairy farm.


No offense taken. :tango_face_wink:


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

stevekozak said:


> Has PTSD.
> Yes, outside the wire, so to speak. People shooting at them. Them shooting at people. Taking artillery fire, etc.


I work with several veterans of the 160th who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them have PTSD. All of our test pilots were there and none are drawing a check. There are a few guardsmen who served over there as ground-pounders. To my knowledge, none have PTSD.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Gunn said:


> I see these young bucks I work with that are vets. I see they get a disability, and I can't figure why and they still work. Here I am 66 years old, served in combat and I thought I was doing pretty good. I have two artificial knees and two hips. All service connected, due to a hard fall with a partial shute opening. I NEVER asked for any disability. But last year they started on me (VA Rep) about what percentage do I have? I told them zero. I have a disability, but my employer works with me. I am a Respiratory Therapist and they make sure I am sitting whenever possible. If I get where I can't work any more due my disabilities, maybe I will talk to them. That is what disability is supposed to mean. I thought. I have a problem with all the PTSD survivors out there. I see a lot of vets, but I can not really see all the claims of PTSD being real. My BIL suffers from it, And he waited 45 years to file a claim. He should of done it years ago. PTSD is out there but I don't think it is as common as reported.


I started up a conversation with a guy while standing in line at a Best Western in Venice, Florida. He was a well-dressed guy and I was a tired truck driver, but there was a decal on his briefcase that indicated he had served in a brigade in which I'd served multiple times. He asked me where I served, expecting one duty station. When I told him all the duty stations, he started asking me questions that caused me to ask him if he were a shrink or something. It turned out that he was a psychiatrist. He told me that the brigade in which we served had the highest suicide rate as well as the highest "nutcase" rate in the army. Seems I am a statistical anomaly for serving more than one duty station in that brigade without being committed, afterward.
I'm not going to suggest that I survived without picking up some issues, but I handle them. Money from the government won't change a damned thing and I'm not taking any "happy pills."
A friend's father served in the Pacific during WWII. He was a flamethrower. He couldn't close his eyes to sleep without hearing the Japs screaming in agony while burning alive due to his flamethrower. Who the Hell am I to complain that I'm not a Happy, Shiny People type?
My shoulders and knees are shot due to my service. Sleep comes hard and I can't even throw a tennis ball without feeling the pain. A friend's father lost his arm in Vietnam. Who the Hell am I to whine, and a disability check won't change a damned thing.
I hear people at work talking about how they are working the system to get 100% disability from the military while being more physically fit than I am. All I can do is shake my head.


----------



## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Its a touchy topic. I have a niece that says she was raped, while int he Navy. 80% PTSD. Problem is, no one ever was UCMjd or investigated. I knew the CMC aboard that ship. No one. But, the VA doesnt know that. Right?
Also, I had some shit happen to me while onboard a Submarine off of country X.. One of my guys killed himself 4 days after pulling into home port. Yes, it was scarry, but most of us processed things differently. Its not like we were thinking what happened to WW2 submarines..
So, no PTSD for me, I just have no nightmares of it..
My Dad has it from Vietnam, or whatever they called it then. But, his is documented as to where they were and what happened to him.


----------



## Gunn (Jan 1, 2016)

Denton said:


> I started up a conversation with a guy while standing in line at a Best Western in Venice, Florida. He was a well-dressed guy and I was a tired truck driver, but there was a decal on his briefcase that indicated he had served in a brigade in which I'd served multiple times. He asked me where I served, expecting one duty station. When I told him all the duty stations, he started asking me questions that caused me to ask him if he were a shrink or something. It turned out that he was a psychiatrist. He told me that the brigade in which we served had the highest suicide rate as well as the highest "nutcase" rate in the army. Seems I am a statistical anomaly for serving more than one duty station in that brigade without being committed, afterward.
> I'm not going to suggest that I survived without picking up some issues, but I handle them. Money from the government won't change a damned thing and I'm not taking any "happy pills."
> A friend's father served in the Pacific during WWII. He was a flamethrower. He couldn't close his eyes to sleep without hearing the Japs screaming in agony while burning alive due to his flamethrower. Who the Hell am I to complain that I'm not a Happy, Shiny People type?
> My shoulders and knees are shot due to my service. Sleep comes hard and I can't even throw a tennis ball without feeling the pain. A friend's father lost his arm in Vietnam. Who the Hell am I to whine, and a disability check won't change a damned thing.
> I hear people at work talking about how they are working the system to get 100% disability from the military while being more physically fit than I am. All I can do is shake my head.


That what I am trying to say, that there are people out there with PTSD and a lot of them keep quiet about it. Then you have the ones gaming the system. I work with a retired E-8 from the Air Force. He was an airplane mechanic. He says he has PTSD and also gets a benefit because he has Obstructive Sleep Apnea! He is also an RT, so he knows all about sleep apnea. He knows what causes it and he knows what to do about it. But he just grins and goes "Cha Ching". Then I think of people like my BIL, who I misspoke about, it was 55 years without treatment not 45. He was a Corpsman in Viet Nam, I can understand him having PTSD. It just ticks me off with people playing the system. I mean you listen to them talk, and they are proud of it. They tell each other how to get more money from the government. Where are their moral values?


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Denton said:


> I work with several veterans of the 160th who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them have PTSD. All of our test pilots were there and none are drawing a check. There are a few guardsmen who served over there as ground-pounders. To my knowledge, none have PTSD.


It will be readily admitted by professionals in the field of mental health that a persons level of PTSD after a series of traumatic events is directly related to their medical fitness before hand.
If you were a little unbalanced before, you are more likely to develop PTSD, and it will be more severe.
I have had several professionals tell me this.

But, of course, political correctness forbids this being mentioned publicly.


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> It will be readily admitted by professionals in the field of mental health that a persons level of PTSD after a series of traumatic events is directly related to their medical fitness before hand.
> If you were a little unbalanced before, you are more likely to develop PTSD, and it will be more severe.
> I have had several professionals tell me this.
> 
> But, of course, political correctness forbids this being mentioned publicly.


I was sitting here trying to say what you just said. Thanks, Brother.


----------



## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Gunn said:


> That what I am trying to say, that there are people out there with PTSD and a lot of them keep quiet about it. Then you have the ones gaming the system. I work with a retired E-8 from the Air Force. He was an airplane mechanic. He says he has PTSD and also gets a benefit because he has Obstructive Sleep Apnea! He is also an RT, so he knows all about sleep apnea. He knows what causes it and he knows what to do about it. But he just grins and goes "Cha Ching". Then I think of people like my BIL, who I misspoke about, it was 55 years without treatment not 45. He was a Corpsman in Viet Nam, I can understand him having PTSD. It just ticks me off with people playing the system. I mean you listen to them talk, and they are proud of it. They tell each other how to get more money from the government. Where are their moral values?


I know people on Sleep Apnea. Not everyone gets compensation for being on one as Veteran,, Trust me...
My Mom has one, CPAP machine, and she loves it... She used to be tired all the time.. Lots of coffee.. Now, at 80, she just went on a trip to Yellowstone, Custers 1st grave, Mount Rushmore etc etc.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

My wife thinks she has PTSD because of being raised by a crazy and alohol infused Mama and step Daddy. She acts pretty funny sometimes...so I dont doubt she prob has it.


----------



## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I got the diagnosis but I don't receive a check. Just wanted to know where these things were coming from. I found out that sharing on this site and others with similar experiences was a great benefit. I bottled too much up and didn't process it correctly at all. Maybe if folks are still troubled they can let the demons loose in the bunker somewhere. I know it seems like PTSD is a popular thing for everyone to have. Who am I to judge, I just have my doubts about a great many of them. Gaming the system.


----------



## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Denton said:


> I work with several veterans of the 160th who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them have PTSD. All of our test pilots were there and none are drawing a check. There are a few guardsmen who served over there as ground-pounders. To my knowledge, none have PTSD.


Yet. I worry about my son. He did a combat tour in Afghanistan and washed his best friend out of the floorboards of a Hum V. So far so good though.


----------



## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

I wanted to drill down a bit on the *symptoms of PTSD*

The symptoms of PTSD off the VA website are as follows:

Anger
depression
anxiety
intrusive thoughts or memories
flashbacks
fatigue
nightmares
loss of concentration
increased startle
hypervigilance
avoidance
isolation
emotional numbing
lack of trust
suicidal ideation or suicidal thoughts

The problem with this list is that just about all of the symptoms could be experienced individually or in groups on an average commute to work. The self-professed mental state of the individual is the only real metric, and that's tough to measure. Another common claim for the disabilities crowd is "lower back pain." Almost impossible to either prove or disprove. I think that perhaps that is why PTSD is such an easy claim for fraud. I have PTSD because I SAY I have PTSD.


----------



## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

gyro_cfi said:


> Main problem is with big government employees trying to grow the government. My PTSD story: I served in the Army and got out in 1985 at the rank of CW2. Thirty years later I'm in the unemployment office filing for unemployment and am sat down across from a "VA Specialist".
> He's shocked that I haven't been rated by the VA for disabilities I incurred in service. So, he's filling out a referral form and asked me 3 to 4 different ways about what possible terrible things I've seen, bad service related dreams, emotional triggers that might be service related. Comes right out and tells me he is trying to set me up for PTSD benefits.
> By the way, no military conflicts were occurring while I was in and I served most of my time in Hawaii as a UH-1 pilot. Somebody had to do the tough jobs. Yes, thank you for my service , it was hell. I do get benefits for a real injury, I can't hear worth a damn anymore.


Helo flying is serious stress. When I was in Hawaii, I had to help find and pull bodies out after a Coastie helos basket cable ripped during a training op, and the cable flew into the rotors. Full speed straight into the ocean. 
Dont sell yourself short. Heck, even our neighbor at Ft Rucker had stress due to training helo pilots in 84/85.
But, I see the reality is, many people handle stress different than others. Some can handle high levels, and not even phase them. Some, cant handle a pin drop due to something they incurred.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Jem said:


> I wanted to drill down a bit on the *symptoms of PTSD*
> 
> The symptoms of PTSD off the VA website are as follows:
> 
> ...


 That also describes many people with Alcohol and other drug addition. It describes many people that are just pain in but to begin with. I do agree with what you posted.
Also if you take an 18-19 year old with behavior issues and or Alcohol problems and send him off to combat for 15 to 24 months when he gets home what you have is an 20-22 year old with an excuse. I often questioned why Soldiers in treatment medical hold are given drugs. Then a pay check and passes. To go out drinking. But it happens all the time. Arguing that issue with chain of command i get a lot of well they have a right to a pass. I say no they do not. if they are taking have drugs for treatment they need to be monitored not out drinking.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

You forgot survivor guilt. And sleep disturbance.
And even today, 50 years after the fact, I still have what the VA terms an exaggerated startle response.
And, “anger” does not really describe it. “Rage” is closer.

What is indesputable is that repeated trauma, such as that caused by warfare, causes chemical changes in the deep, subconscious, part of the brain, sometimes called the lizard brain. It has been proven by the use of MRI’s on PTSD brains and normal brains.
There was a very good article on this in the VVA Veteran magazine a few years ago, complete with color pictures of the MRI’s.

Previous generations coped with this through alcohol abuse. Many still do today. A trip to the local VFW bar will illustrate this. 
I used this method for 20 years.

The VA wants to simply treat the symptoms with drugs.


----------



## gyro_cfi (Jan 12, 2016)

Denton said:


> I work with several veterans of the 160th who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them have PTSD. All of our test pilots were there and none are drawing a check. There are a few guardsmen who served over there as ground-pounders. To my knowledge, none have PTSD.


And the 160th pilots are some of the smartest, funniest people on earth too. Worked with several at Collins putting together avionics and communications systems.
In my unit, out of flight school, every senior pilot I've met that flew in Vietnam seemed to have had the opposite reaction to combat. They enjoyed the experience even though every one of them had been hit with small arms during the war.


----------



## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

My childhood best friend worked with Task Force 160 as a Chinook mechanic. They did lots of deck landing qualifications on my ship and a real world op involving Delta Force and the Achille Lauro. Those pilots were among the best. That was the only time we had CH47s on board. They were black.


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

The VA uses DSM 5 criteria in addition to evidence from the veteran's file, self report and collateral report to come to a diagnosis of PTSD. Is it over diagnosed? Yes, but that happens every where. It would be more accurate to use the diagnosis of "trauma reaction" which many more veterans and people would have versus PTSD. It is more common for veterans to be diagnosed with anxiety disorder and depression than PTSD in my experience working for the VA. A veteran can still get service connected up to 100% with either as well.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

RedLion said:


> The VA uses DSM 5 criteria in addition to evidence from the veteran's file, self report and collateral report to come to a diagnosis of PTSD. Is it over diagnosed? Yes, but that happens every where. It would be more accurate to use the diagnosis of "trauma reaction" which many more veterans and people would have versus PTSD. It is more common for veterans to be diagnosed with anxiety disorder and depression than PTSD in my experience working for the VA. A veteran can still get service connected up to 100% with either as well.


RL, is the VA digitizing old hand written files from the 1980's, or is my Vet Center file quietly collecting dust?
I thought I was safe, but I heard everything is being digitized.

I'm the opposite of a fake PTSD disability claimant. Yes, I have it, but I want to be left alone by the government.
With the passage of time, alcohol abstinence, and my faith I'm usually OK.
But unexpected bright flashes of light and sudden loud noises still send a jolt of adrenaline straight into my heart. It hurts, too!!


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

RedLion said:


> The VA uses DSM 5 criteria in addition to evidence from the veteran's file, self report and collateral report to come to a diagnosis of PTSD. Is it over diagnosed? Yes, but that happens every where. It would be more accurate to use the diagnosis of "trauma reaction" which many more veterans and people would have versus PTSD. It is more common for veterans to be diagnosed with anxiety disorder and depression than PTSD in my experience working for the VA. A veteran can still get service connected up to 100% with either as well.


Will anxiety or depression "Red-Flag" them?


----------



## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Jem said:


> I wanted to drill down a bit on the *symptoms of PTSD*
> 
> The symptoms of PTSD off the VA website are as follows:
> 
> ...


Hell, I suffer most of those symptoms on the drive into the office every morning. :tango_face_grin:


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks @Jem for the interesting thread.

The amount of TOTAL Waste-Fraud-Abuse at the US Govt Federal Level is frightening. Certainly the VA or SSDI Fraud is concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the BILLIONS that we waste on shit hole countries and the BILLIONS we waste on EPA, GREEN INITIATIVES, ETHANOL, DEPT OF ED, DEPT OF COMMERCE, etc etc etc.

No offense to anyone but after paying LOTS of taxes over the past 40+ years I am becoming increasingly concerned regarding WHEN DO I GET MINE?


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> RL, is the VA digitizing old hand written files from the 1980's, or is my Vet Center file quietly collecting dust?
> I thought I was safe, but I heard everything is being digitized.
> 
> I'm the opposite of a fake PTSD disability claimant. Yes, I have it, but I want to be left alone by the government.
> ...


I do believe that all VA patient records from a certain date forward are suppose to be digitized. I can not tell you any more than that.


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Denton said:


> Will anxiety or depression "Red-Flag" them?


The only times that I have seen patients "flagged" has been in veteran electronic medical files for behaviors, not diagnosis. This has been in cases where the veteran has demonstrated aggressive/threatening behaviors, sexually inappropriate, suicidal behaviors or homicidal behaviors. And this is multiple incidents of the behavior(s). Flags get reviewed and taken off a decent amount of times as well. I give input to review boards on veterans that I work with that have flags and more often than not request that the flag be taken off. I am talking from my experience at the Minneapolis VA, so can not vouch for all VA's doing this, even though they are supposed to.


----------



## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

Denton said:


> Will anxiety or depression "Red-Flag" them?


I've been plowing through the miasma of internet drivel from the usual sources. Checking one against the other, cross checking, looking for collaboration on plausible information... most of you know the routine....

Near as I can tell, Pro-Gun-Control is going to push for a national mental health check with _*any *_indication of mood-related treatment (including pharmaceuticals) resulting in a DENY for gun purchase. Its about 30/70 for this check being conducted by the existing NICS frameworks, or an entirely new department to check for the mental health side.

The challenge of integration is that those sweater and sneaker wearing little 'ol ladies that are running the NICS checks currently have absolutely zero credentials for spotting show-stopping medical circumstance. They would most certainly be made to error on the side of caution - "If you can't pronounce the drug, it's a deny"

Here's another angle I haven't seen discussed - What if we (gun owners) aren't the target at all? What if this entire facet of the anti-gun movement is aimed at the next generation? Consider how many school children are on prescription drugs in lieu of home training and discipline? Nearly the entirety of the next generation will be denied the right of gun ownership before they even knew they had the right. It's the long game, but the end result will be* complete subjugation in a single generation.*


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Jem said:


> I've been plowing through the miasma of internet drivel from the usual sources. Checking one against the other, cross checking, looking for collaboration on plausible information... most of you know the routine....
> 
> Near as I can tell, Pro-Gun-Control is going to push for a national mental health check with _*any *_indication of mood-related treatment (including pharmaceuticals) resulting in a DENY for gun purchase. Its about 30/70 for this check being conducted by the existing NICS frameworks, or an entirely new department to check for the mental health side.
> 
> ...


You certainly bring up where things could go. With that said, no way that conservatives could support the type of back ground check that you are talking about. Not only would it violate Federal Law (HIPPA), and be UnConstitutional, but it would ensure that they get booted out of office. Gun ownership, meaning new gun owners including women being the fastest growing segment means more support for guns, not less. Gun Control is a losing issue and large reason why you will not see Trump ultimately supporting red flag laws of Universal BGCs.


----------



## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Jem said:


> I've been plowing through the miasma of internet drivel from the usual sources. Checking one against the other, cross checking, looking for collaboration on plausible information... most of you know the routine....
> 
> Near as I can tell, Pro-Gun-Control is going to push for a national mental health check with _*any *_indication of mood-related treatment (including pharmaceuticals) resulting in a DENY for gun purchase. Its about 30/70 for this check being conducted by the existing NICS frameworks, or an entirely new department to check for the mental health side.
> 
> ...


It is just speculation on my part, but it would not surprise me if the big push for "medical" marijuana and recreational marijuana is a sneaky effort to deny gun ownership to millions of Americans.


----------



## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

RedLion said:


> ..... no way that conservatives could support the type of back ground check that you are talking about. Not only would it violate Federal Law (HIPPA), and be UnConstitutional, but it would ensure that they get booted out of office. Gun ownership, meaning new gun owners including women being the fastest growing segment means more support for guns, not less. Gun Control is a losing issue and large reason why you will not see Trump ultimately supporting red flag laws of Universal BGCs.


I will respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with these assertions (isn't reasonable discourse great?). I would propose to you that many of the gun laws we ALREADY have are ALREADY unconstitutional. The constitution has certainly served as a speed bump for new gun-control legislation, but it has NOT been proof against it. The fact that your new gun purchase is already conditional on the subjective consideration of a low paid bureaucrat (NICS) is proof of this.

As to the political survivability of supporting gun control, a politician only has to APPEAR to be reasonable. "Crazy people shouldn't have or be able to purchase guns" is a VERY reasonable statement. Anything a politician does in the pursuit of this very reasonable statement, as long as its accompanied by a suitabley robust information campaign, would be just fine with the majority of voters (even conservatives). Once you've established this check into the gun acquisition process, it is not longer a question of whether guns should be legal. It becomes a question of who decides what "crazy" is. Mental health is a very subjective issue.

Gun control never goes backwards. Like entitlements, once enacted, a form of gun control will not be relaxed. The exception being the "Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994" which banned the manufacture and sale of certain semi automatic weapons (ARs and AKs). This ban was never repealed. Rather it expired on September 13, 2004 due to a built in "sunset provision." Joe Biden and several of the other dem strap hanging candidates have already vowed to reinstate this ban, and would be able to do so relatively easily.

If you're hanging the entire future of gun ownership on Pres Trump being re-elected [YOU did not indicate that, RedLion, but others have], don't forget two things - He completely threw bump stocks under the bus, and he can only be president for another four years.


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Excellent food for thought that Gun Control may be aimed at the "Next Generation" not any of the current gun owners. 

Eliminate demand through evil department of education practices, Continue to advocate for more single parent mother homes where the child is easily manipulated, become more and more common to push psychotropic drugs on children and the medical marijuana thing to eliminate the possibility that a person CAN buy a firearm, and the feds may eliminate new gun owners in a generation or two.


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Jem said:


> I will respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with these assertions (isn't reasonable discourse great?). I would propose to you that many of the gun laws we ALREADY have are ALREADY unconstitutional. The constitution has certainly served as a speed bump for new gun-control legislation, but it has NOT been proof against it. The fact that your new gun purchase is already conditional on the subjective consideration of a low paid bureaucrat (NICS) is proof of this.
> 
> As to the political survivability of supporting gun control, a politician only has to APPEAR to be reasonable. "Crazy people shouldn't have or be able to purchase guns" is a VERY reasonable statement. Anything a politician does in the pursuit of this very reasonable statement, as long as its accompanied by a suitabley robust information campaign, would be just fine with the majority of voters (even conservatives). Once you've established this check into the gun acquisition process, it is not longer a question of whether guns should be legal. It becomes a question of who decides what "crazy" is. Mental health is a very subjective issue.
> 
> ...


Good thoughts, but I will disagree with you on "gun control never goes backwards." The easiest example of this not being the case is "shall issue" CCW. Other examples include states with Constitutional Carry. Heck even MN legalized silencers about 4 years ago. There are three SCOTUS cases (two specifically about gun control and one other that will affect Fed agencies being able to interpret the law, versus only carry it out) that are being heard between now the January. One includes NY City's UnConstitutional ban on citizens not being allowed to transport guns outside of the home other than to a local gun range. NY knows that they will lose this one, as apparent by their brief to the SCOTUS not to hear it while looking to change the law. One of the other SCOTUS cases is around "May issue."


----------



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

And I am not relying on Trump stop all gun control on his own. I also did not like bump stocks being banned, but this could be the case where bump stocks are unbanned if the one SCOTUS case goes the way that fed agencies can not use discretion in enforcing the law, but need to follow the letter of the law. We shall see.

I do like this Trump tweet just this morning about Fredo Cuomo as it tells me that he at least right now does not support Red Flag laws.



> Donald J. Trump
> ✔ @realDonaldTrump
> 
> Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldn't be allowed to have any weapon. He's nuts!
> ...


https://www.weaselzippers.us/429151-trump-weighs-in-on-chris-cuomo-and-the-fredo-controversy/


----------



## Green Lilly (Nov 8, 2018)

Jem said:


> I've been plowing through the miasma of internet drivel from the usual sources. Checking one against the other, cross checking, looking for collaboration on plausible information... most of you know the routine....
> 
> Near as I can tell, Pro-Gun-Control is going to push for a national mental health check with _*any *_indication of mood-related treatment (including pharmaceuticals) resulting in a DENY for gun purchase. Its about 30/70 for this check being conducted by the existing NICS frameworks, or an entirely new department to check for the mental health side.
> 
> ...


Couple that with the increase in school shootings and it would make sense that the target is the younger generation. Look at how many of the younger generation are clamoring for tighter gun regulations up to and including repealing the 2nd. The powers that be know it would be too much of a fight to disarm the older crowd but groom the young ones to fear and hate guns. Add in that so many of our kids these days are dependent on Big Pharma cocktails and wouldn't be allowed to own them if they get these new laws through. I never thought about it that way but it makes perfect sense.


----------

