# .300 AAC Blackout..



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Would love to hear from the experts, the advantages/disadvantages of the .300 AAC Blackout? 

Of course, Slippy would NEVER buy one since he would most likely lose it at sea over the Marianna Trench in the Loch Ness.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Advantages are in the eye of the beholder...

For me there are several things I love about the round. Its available in a lot more guns than the 300 Whisper. Not only is it available in a NEF type Handi Rifle for a few more fun dollars than a new Handi but its also available in several brands of AR Uppers. I am also hearing of rumors at Mossberg that they are seriously considering a Patrol Rilfe in that chambering as well...its the only reason I have held off buying one in 223! If they do I will be first in line to pounce on one and I dont care what the price is! Just about any rifle chambered for the 223 can be made to fire the 300 black out with little more than a barrel swap. Ammo is easier to find than the 300 Whisper. Like the Whisper it can be had in super sonic loads or sub sonic loads. I currently own a 300 Whisper and its quiet the Hog Thumper even with the sub sonic ammo although that trajectory aint all that flat. The lighter loads make a decent youth or womans deer gun as well. There are now many bullets coming out for the Whisper and Black Out that work very well at the velocities they operate at. Its basically close to the same power level as a moderate 30-30 load although a bit flatter trajectory wise with the lighter loads. Finding a gun that can shoot the 300 black out is a lot easier and about the same price if not cheaper than trying to find a CZ-527 in 7.62x39 with a .311 bore. (Another combo I would sell my soul to get my hands on...)

Im not one to jump on the trick of the week this or that every time something new comes out but the older I get and the wiser I get the more I appreciate efficeint and versatile cartridges like the .300 Blackout just to name one of many that are out there on the market. Is it something for you? I don't know. You will have to sit down and think about it long and hard and decide if it makes sense to you and the role you need it to fill in your gun collection.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> Advantages are in the eye of the beholder...
> 
> For me there are several things I love about the round. Its available in a lot more guns than the 300 Whisper. Not only is it available in a NEF type Handi Rifle for a few more fun dollars than a new Handi but its also available in several brands of AR Uppers. I am also hearing of rumors at Mossberg that they are seriously considering a Patrol Rilfe in that chambering as well...its the only reason I have held off buying one in 223! If they do I will be first in line to pounce on one and I dont care what the price is! Just about any rifle chambered for the 223 can be made to fire the 300 black out with little more than a barrel swap. Ammo is easier to find than the 300 Whisper. Like the Whisper it can be had in super sonic loads or sub sonic loads. I currently own a 300 Whisper and its quiet the Hog Thumper even with the sub sonic ammo although that trajectory aint all that flat. The lighter loads make a decent youth or womans deer gun as well. There are now many bullets coming out for the Whisper and Black Out that work very well at the velocities they operate at. Its basically close to the same power level as a moderate 30-30 load although a bit flatter trajectory wise with the lighter loads. Finding a gun that can shoot the 300 black out is a lot easier and about the same price if not cheaper than trying to find a CZ-527 in 7.62x39 with a .311 bore. (Another combo I would sell my soul to get my hands on...)
> 
> Im not one to jump on the trick of the week this or that every time something new comes out but the older I get and the wiser I get the more I appreciate efficeint and versatile cartridges like the .300 Blackout just to name one of many that are out there on the market. Is it something for you? I don't know. You will have to sit down and think about it long and hard and decide if it makes sense to you and the role you need it to fill in your gun collection.


Lunatic,
Thanks man!
That is exactly what my research assistant (son #1) is telling me.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

The .300 Blackout is a very versatile round. Here are a few of the advantages;

Have a run of the mill AR in 5.56? Switch out the barrel. That's it. Same mags, same everything. Just a barrel swap and new gas tube.
The .300 can go super or sub-sonic by using lighter or heavier .308 bullets. They are damn quiet when suppressed.
.300 Carries more energy than the 5.56 past 500 yards, and 17% more at the muzzle than a 7.62x39
If you reload, it is relatively easy to make your own ammo for it.

I like this round. A lot. It's very capable.

Here's a video I really enjoyed;






Oh...and another one. I like Sootch!


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Unless You Intend To Have A Silencer This Round Makes No Sense. 
Not Readily Available
Expensive
Balistically Inferior To Most Rounds.
Non Standard


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

alterego said:


> Unless You Intend To Have A Silencer This Round Makes No Sense.
> Not Readily Available
> Expensive
> Balistically Inferior To Most Rounds.
> Non Standard


You have to be open minded.

It is ballistically superior to the AK Round right out of the gate. It has greater ability against harder targets, such as vehicles, windshields, stuff like that, than the 5.56, it carries the same amount of energy at 700 yards as the 5.56 at 500 yards. It also creates a larger wound channel at "combat distances" than a 5.56 because the bullet is larger in diameter and heavier. Simple physics.

It IS versatile. Self protection, hunting, target shooting; all kinds of stuff. Just like lots of other rounds.

If we gathered all of the worlds rounds together and compared them, the 5.56 would also be "inferior" to most rounds. I don't know of a round that is the be all end all, only thing you'll ever need. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many variations. It comes down to personal preference and a whole lot of favoritism. Along with "what application is it best suited for?"

It is not readily available, but like I said, if you reload, it's pretty easy to do and not anymore expensive than reloading anything else. Certainly cheaper than a 50 BMG no matter how you look at it.

You are incorrect that it is "Non-Standard". It is SAAMI Spec. The 300 Whisper is not.


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## Beach Kowboy (Feb 13, 2014)

It is a great round IMO. Especially if you are running a can. It is not one of the "standard" rounds so there are always going to people that talk shit about it. If you have the money and want it. By all means, grab it up.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

> It is a great round IMO. Especially if you are running a can.


That was my biggest motivation for the 300 Whisper shortly after it came out. A 220 A-Max at 1050fps out of my gun is scary quiet with more noise coming from the action on the AR cycling than the muzzle although there is a unmistakingly audible thud at about 200 yards down range! Between the 300 Whisper and the 300 ACC Blackout, the Blackout is a much better design concept than the Whisper although both are just about identical twins.


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## Beach Kowboy (Feb 13, 2014)

Seem slike people don't like change. Especially the older folk. Take scopes, the older guys say "Mildots have been working for years and the new ones are too busy" or "Snipers use mil dots so it must be the best". That is what you heard when the Horus and HDMR reticles came out. Thing is, snipers are going to the Horus and HDMR/2 now. Ones something becomes "popular" THEN people are willing to change. Until then, what they always used is the best...


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

As I understand it, JD Jones put a patent on the 300 Whisper so as to be the exclusive distributer unless he gets a cut off the sale or something to that effect. This has majorly hampered the growth of the Whisper and seriously limited the fire arms its chambered in as a result unless you do a custom build. The Blackout on the other hand is not and was the answer to a near identical round that's just different enough in specs to get around this. That is why the Blackout is gaining ground over the Whisper at an amazing rate despite being a bit of a specialty round. This has made it considerably easier for the various manufactures to court the idea of marketing the round and fire arms to use it without all of the red tape. Neither round is any better than the other, they are ballistic twins quite literally.

In both rounds in a gas driven gun they are pretty complicated if you want a reliable operating gun. For reliable functioning you will likely want to choose one that has an adjustable gas system or decide from the get go your going to use sub sonic or super sonic ammunition exclusively for the most part. If your going to use a can this will also affect the gas system operation as well. Many auto laoders have a tendency to pound the action pretty hard when using a can with super sonic ammo due to the longer and higher pressure cuve that's created as a result. In bolt actions they are a much easier conversion and much more flexible in using super sonic or subsonic ammunition compared to a gas gun although rifling twist that both use is a bit of a compromise. Often times in bolt gun conversions from the 223, there are some feeding rail issues and feeding can sometimes be problematic. But in the Handi Rifle conversion that ACC does all of that is a non issue, however your restricted to just a single shot in a beak action rifle. But the rifle is very light weight making it perfect for Young or petite shooters to hold and steady yet recoil still very mild for such light weight guns.

Im lucky in that I have a can for mine and I intended to use subsonic ammo almost exclusively in my AR and almost always with the can installed. This made my gun pretty dang reliable functioning wise and allowed me to use a twist rate optimized for the 200-240 gr 308 cal bullets at speeds in the 1000-1100 fps range that best suits these bullets with long bearing surfaces. At the time I bought my gun you were limited pretty much to a AR or a T/C Encore and a barrel from SKS Industries. That's not neccissarily the case anymore these days as there are now some other options out there. At the time bolt guns were the other option but they often encountered feeding issues from the magazines due to the difference in need of the feeding rails. What worked for a tiny 22 cal bullet didn't neccissarily work so great on a fat stubby 30 cal bullet. Remington 700 actions were often the action of choice mainly due to the number of custom gun makers that had enough experience putting these guns together with experience on the Remington 700 action and they had kind of sorted out the feeding issues from the magazines. Enough have been built to date now a days that, that is probably less problematic that in years past and now most bolt guns of the more popular brands can probably be easily converted from a 223 gun.

I am really anxious to see if Mossberg is going to take up the Mossberg Patrol Carbine and chamber it for the 300 ACC Black out or the 6.5 Grendel as rumored. I think it would be the perfect platform for either round in a compact and efficient package with a lot of great features.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

On another side note this aint the first wildcat round I have played around with. In addition to getting a 300 Whisper and can years ago when it was a pretty new concept still, I also picked up a 6mmx45 AR Upper which is freaking awesome with bullets in the 80-90 gr range! I also had a surplus Mauser action sent to a custom rifle maker for a 29 inch bull barrel and chambered in 224 TTH which spits out a 80 gr 22 cal bullet at speeds around 3600-3700 fps! Unless your a hard core long range Coyote shooter and don't mind a new barrel about every 1000 rounds might want to shelf that idea. It amazingly flat shooting when zeroed at 200 yards as its about 4 inches high at 100 and about 4 inches low at 400, but its also majorly over bored and quite hard on barrels as a result. As much as I enjoy it now, looking back I kind of wonder why the hell I didn't do something more practical.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

I was looking for a 300 barrel,then Primary emailed me yesterday morning about a 1in 8 DSA CHF carbine gas medium contour 556 NATO Match barrel for $84.99, which is now $99.99 after fixing the misprint.Hoping the CHF isn't a misprint also. DSA was making some match barrels from FN blanks awhile ago
The barrel is on the FedEx truck as of yesterday afternoon.


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

To me, .300 BLK offers a lot of versatility to certain weapon platforms, or to people that want a heavier close range caliber, without needing all of the new support items (mags, pouches, dedicated lowers, etc). However, on a normal AR, I don't see it as that much of an improvement. Most ARs have semi-permanently attached barrels, meaning you'll have to swap the entire upper when you swap calibers. Not the best option. For weapons with a modular barrel design, like the Tavor, SCAR, ACR, and some of LMT's offerings, the idea is sound, I really hope the industry lines up behind it.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

I looked at the round when it first came out and it's an answer to a question that no one asked. Except to draw in the inexperienced and boost sales. Sales hype over the next big thing, big deal. Does nothing that you can't do with just about any existing round. This has nothing to do with being an old guy and being stuck in my ways. It comes from years of reloading and experience with firearms. 

Do I need another 30-30 in it's most powerful load?? Why waste money on a new platform when your trusty 30-30 lever does the exact same thing for less? Cycles more reliably, easier to reload, ammo cheaper and easier to find. Is a 30-30 really a great choice for a hog gun? I can shoot it sub sonic big deal. What round can't be loaded sub sonic??

Let me take this in another direction. We are looking for a versatile platform for hunting and shooting sub sonic right. My choice is a Ruger SR 762. I can shoot up to 220 grain full power hammers for hogs and any other game animal in the US. Change mags and shoot 175 match and 150 grain SST's out to a thousand yards. Can adjust my gas system down or even shut it off to shoot sub sonic, single shot if I want. 

I KNOW it's based on a AR-10 platform and it weights a couple pounds more than an AR-15. That 2 pounds will just kill me and I can't carry such a huge rifle around. I understand but the SR is 8.6 lbs. How much does your low power 300 weight?? Sure I guess if money is no object and you just have to blindly follow the crowd and buy the next new shiny thing go for it. For what purpose I've yet to figure out.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

.300 blackout or whisper is a great toy for the well heeled and fashionable shooter. They are still both wildcat rounds in my book. It is prohibitively expensive and hard to come by. Just give me cheap, readily available and perfectly deadly .223 to stock up on and if I need it, I also have gobs of 7.62x54r, 7.62x39 and 30.06 for the big stuff.


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## bgreed (Feb 26, 2014)

The role I see as best for the 300 blackout is a short barrel suppressed with subsonic heavy bullets for CQB.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Chipper said:


> I looked at the round when it first came out and it's an answer to a question that no one asked. Except to draw in the inexperienced and boost sales. Sales hype over the next big thing, big deal. Does nothing that you can't do with just about any existing round. This has nothing to do with being an old guy and being stuck in my ways. It comes from years of reloading and experience with firearms.
> 
> Do I need another 30-30 in it's most powerful load?? Why waste money on a new platform when your trusty 30-30 lever does the exact same thing for less? Cycles more reliably, easier to reload, ammo cheaper and easier to find. Is a 30-30 really a great choice for a hog gun? I can shoot it sub sonic big deal. What round can't be loaded sub sonic??
> 
> ...


Chipper,
I've been looking at the Ruger 762 for over a year now and that may be my choice. http://ruger.com/products/sr762/models.html

I was just curious about the .300 Blackout but don't know anyone who owns one so I thought I'd throw it out on the Forum.
Good info all and thanks.
Slippy


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

csi-tech said:


> .300 blackout or whisper is a great toy for the well heeled and fashionable shooter. They are still both wildcat rounds in my book. It is prohibitively expensive and hard to come by. Just give me cheap, readily available and perfectly deadly .223 to stock up on and if I need it, I also have gobs of 7.62x54r, 7.62x39 and 30.06 for the big stuff.


I am neither well heeled nor fashionable. :grin: Hell, I'm barely house broken.

The 5.56 is a great round. It would not still be serving our military for what, close to 60 years? if it wasn't. I think 300 Blackout is a great option for an AR Platform without having to commit to major surgery. Here's what I envision as it's biggest advantage, to me personally, so lets say;

I have an AR 15 in 5.56 and I reload as well. I don't have the money, room, desire to pick up yet one more gun and it's ammo for this or that purpose. I want to, say, go hunting. Hog, deer, something of that nature. I've decided I want a little versatility. My laws prohibit me from using my AR and it's current caliber to hunt anything but coyotes with.

With my existing AR platform, I can do one of two things; rebarrel it for .300 Blackout, or buy a dedicated upper. Rebarreling it is the most economical option, and maybe later, I can build or buy a dedicated upper. But rebarreling, it's the cost of a new barrel and gas tube. It's not hard to do by any means if you have any type of mechanical ability and common sense.

Now, what to do about ammo? Oh yeah, I reload. I buy some Lee Dies, less than $40 bucks, I already have the 5.56 brass. I buy one of Harbor Freights little Chop Saws, cut the brass down and run it through the 300 Blackout die to size it. Oh, and don't forget the .308 caliber bullet, of which I'll spend more time going through my choices than I did on the rest of my project.

At this point, I need ABSOLUTELY nothing else. No different primers, the powder I currently use is good to go, no new bolt carrier group, use the same magazines as my 5.56 and so on.

Tell me one other gun where it is that simple, that can lay down the hurt this one can. Ammo availability is not an argument. Everything you need to make it is readily available. If you don't reload, there are places out there that will allow you to rent space and equipment, even offer classes. I have one 20 minutes from my house. And for those that reload, you know each time you shoot it, it just gets cheaper. Lets talk about personal satisfaction. You have completely manufactured your own ammo. From start to finish. And how can you not love that?

I watched a guy on good old YT shoot his 5.56, walk into his shop, take that same fired 5.56 case, convert it over to 300 Blackout, switch his upper and fire the round he just made, in under 5 minutes. It was cool.

I am saying again, that the 300 Blackout is not the "Be All, End All". There is no such thing. Yes, I agree that a bolt or Single Shot rifle in the caliber seems unnecessary because yes, we have the 30-30. Lots of things are unnecessary in the gun world, but still fun. And if you already have a 300 BO platform, and you want one, why not? I mean, we match rifles to pistols all the time. Right? Tell me a single shot H&R 300 AAC Blackout Handi-Rifle with a Suppressor isn't cool? Totally unnecessary, but damn cool. Which is what makes this hobby so fun.

Yes, we already have the 7.62x39 (which the 300 BO outperforms right out of the muzzle). But show me an AR Platform that comes in 30-30. And why on earth would I want 7.62x39 in an AR? That's what we have AK's and SKS's for.

But I digress; I want just one rifle, two calibers, with existing equipment and components, with the obvious exception of a new barrel.

If you own an AR 15, in 5.56, and you reload, you are looking at an outlay of less than $250 for those who are "do it yourselfers" (barrel/dies/chop saw) to have a 300 Blackout. I do feel that you having a dedicated upper is much more convenient, but obviously, not absolutely necessary. A simple switch and go, then switch back when you're ready. You can build a dedicated upper for a few hundred bucks or less.***

It's not often that you find this type of flexibility with this kind of firepower, this cheap.

I'm not telling any of you, that you're wrong in not excepting, or for finding fault in this round/conversion. I like lots of rounds. A lot. This is one of them. So try not to kick those of us who stand behind it as a legitimate, functional round with purpose, to hard in the nuts. :lol:

***In Addition, keep in mind that when you build the upper, you don't need to buy the bolt or charging handle; you use the one from your 5.56 Upper. Just saved some bank.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Very well articulated, well played Sir!

An additional reason it made sense for me...I retired from the military and few years ago and accumulated a 55 gallon barrel of once fired pristine brass, got close to half that in 308 and 9mm too! Yeah, that's right, I am a reloader too!


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

bigdogbuc said:


> I am neither well heeled nor fashionable. :grin: Hell, I'm barely house broken.
> 
> The 5.56 is a great round. It would not still be serving our military for what, close to 60 years? if it wasn't. I think 300 Blackout is a great option for an AR Platform without having to commit to major surgery. Here's what I envision as it's biggest advantage, to me personally, so lets say;
> 
> ...


Grande Perro,
I want to party with you cowboy!
Your friend 
Slippy


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

Slippy said:


> Grande Perro,
> I want to party with you cowboy!
> Your friend
> Slippy


Likewise homie!


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

I'm a little late to the bandwagon, I thought the blackout was probably a dumb idea till Inor mentioned a few things. Now it's got me thinking. 
So how do you make a case out of a 5.56? Cut thoe neck down a little bit, then expand it? How many times can you reuse the brass after doing this? Someone mentioned it being comparable to the .30-30 round in ballistics? But the .30-30 is only good out to 250 max, someone said this round carries out past 700? Inquiring minds.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

Arizona Infidel said:


> I'm a little late to the bandwagon, I thought the blackout was probably a dumb idea till Inor mentioned a few things. Now it's got me thinking.
> So how do you make a case out of a 5.56? Cut thoe neck down a little bit, then expand it? How many times can you reuse the brass after doing this? Someone mentioned it being comparable to the .30-30 round in ballistics? But the .30-30 is only good out to 250 max, someone said this round carries out past 700? Inquiring minds.


Yep. You got it buddy. Basically cut it at the shoulder, stick it in the 300 Blackout die, trim it to length and there you have it; one sized case ready for a nice juicy .308 bullet. I said it carries out past 700. As a matter of fact, they're hitting 750 meters with it. Flight time takes forever, but it smacks the steel with a pretty good whack! Won't rip out your spine or anything, but it'll put a hole in ya' nonetheless.

I think when we get into "MAX" performance, especially with a hunting round (30-30), we shave way back from a bullets performance. If I'm hunting, I want a clean kill so it doesn't suffer. However, with a two legged target, if I'm shooting at you, you've done something that I don't really care if you suffer. As a matter of fact, I encourage it. That way your buddies freak out a little and have to carry you away, thus taking all of them out of the fight and leaving me alone. I mean, an M16/M4 yadda' yadda', can hit a man sized target at 1000 yards, yet the military says effective range is what, 500 yards or so?

For me, the .300 Blackout would be a GREAT, GREAT home defense round. I don't foresee my needing to put rounds through the windshields of moving vehicles any time soon, or chopping down cinder block walls.

But a.308 Bullet without the pass through/kill my neighbor performance of a standard .308, or 5.56 for that matter? Pure money! Fast enough to matter, slow enough to cut back a lot of the over-penetration worries.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

I doubt that round is going to solve any pass through problems to be honest. Your first video says it has combat effectiveness out to 1094 yards. That suckers gonna go through a couple walls.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

Arizona Infidel said:


> I doubt that round is going to solve any pass through problems to be honest. Your first video says it has combat effectiveness out to 1094 yards. That suckers gonna go through a couple walls.


When I say over-penetration, I'm talking about it going through my intended target, my wall, the neighbors wall and halfway through their house. A heavy bullet will dump energy more effectively than a lighter, smaller diameter bullet.

I watched it yet again, and there was never any mention of 1094 yards. They said they were shooting it at "a thousand plus yards". At 700 meters it was carrying 291 ft. lbs (terminal ballistics; weight/velocity/energy/trajectory) which is like getting hit with a .38 +P at point blank range. I don't know what the energy at 1000+ would be, but I imagine it's like getting hit with a .32 at PBR. A hole is a hole.

"Combat Effective Ranges" are fundamentally the distance that a round can reasonably be expected to hit an intended target. A .22 is dangerous for a mile and a half. I do not think a hit at 1094 yards would be necessarily fatal. Like I said, "it'll still put a hole in ya'". Unless you've got on a heavy leather jacket.

The nice part of the 300 Blackout is for home defense, I could run sub-sonic with 220 Grain bullets, which would produce energy real close to a 200 Grain Speer Gold +P out of a .45 ACP. And do it as fast or faster, with more control and more accuracy. All without having to change my gas system.

And we all know how bad-ass the .45 is...

9" penetration






Clean through






Go straight to the 1:50 mark on this if you want.


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

They said 1000 meters. Since we are in the USA I converted it to yards. 1000 meters is 1093 yards. I added a yard by mistake. I'm sure it will make the trip though.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

Arizona Infidel said:


> They said 1000 meters. Since we are in the USA I converted it to yards. 1000 meters is 1093 yards. I added a yard by mistake. I'm sure it will make the trip though.


Okay. I'll give you that one. Even with your bad math...:lol:


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The 300 AAC Blackout with a 150 grain bullet leaves the muzzle at 1300 to 1800 feet per second. A 30-30 with the same 150 grain bullet leaves the muzzle at 2000 to 2300 feet per second. That is less than 80% of the power of a 30-30. I don't know what "they" are using for a definition of "effective range" but in my mind I wouldn't try to down a deer with the Blackout at any range over 75 yards. I have a pistol that shoots a 158 grain bullet at 2000 fps - more power than the 300 blackout - and I limit that range to 100 yards. The same pistol will shoot a 180 grain bullet at just over 1800 fps - just as fast as the Blackout shoots a 150 grain bullet.

For all practical purposes the Blackout is a rifle bullet traveling at pistol velocities. There is no way it is effective at 700 meters - much less 1000. (in my opinion)


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

300 AAC Blackout Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

Here is a ballistic chart on ammunition. Some of the 110-125 gr bullets being offered do approach the 2200-2400 fps range and some of those bullet designs in those weights are specifically designed for hunting using the Blackout just as some 30 cal bullets are designed for use in the 30-30 or the 300 Win Mag and the velocities they operate at so as to give the desired performance required by the user. You got to look at the big picture not just cherry pic information to support your opinion.

I have the 300 Whisper which is almost identical to the Blackout. Its a great short to moderate range round that has decent stopping power on humans and hunting applications for those who are youth, female, inexperienced or just recoil shy and need something to break into hunting with. Its not a long range mutant zombie zapper and it wont likely be all that great for anything above deer or hog outside 200 yards or there abouts. When you compare apples to apples its very comparable to the AK-47's 7.62x39 and a lot of folks consider it far superior to the 5.56. If you also own a AR this makes a great companion upper for those wanting to do more than just punch paper or prep for Zombies. It adds some versatility to your AR without the problems associated with the 7.62x39 being adapted to the platform for those times when you need more than a 62 gr 22 cal bullet, especially as that barrel gets shorter.

No its not going to take the sniper world by storm. No you wont likely see anyone on a elk hunt with it, at least I hope not. But it is a nice efficient intermediate power round with low recoil and very adaptable to the very popular AR platform which millions of gun owners already have in their collection.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

PaulS said:


> The 300 AAC Blackout with a 150 grain bullet leaves the muzzle at 1300 to 1800 feet per second. A 30-30 with the same 150 grain bullet leaves the muzzle at 2000 to 2300 feet per second. That is less than 80% of the power of a 30-30. I don't know what "they" are using for a definition of "effective range" but in my mind I wouldn't try to down a deer with the Blackout at any range over 75 yards. I have a pistol that shoots a 158 grain bullet at 2000 fps - more power than the 300 blackout - and I limit that range to 100 yards. The same pistol will shoot a 180 grain bullet at just over 1800 fps - just as fast as the Blackout shoots a 150 grain bullet.
> 
> For all practical purposes the Blackout is a rifle bullet traveling at pistol velocities. There is no way it is effective at 700 meters - much less 1000. (in my opinion)


If you're shooting ammo with that much extreme spread in velocity, switch brands.

I want to see if you can cycle as many rounds in 6 seconds with a lever action as I can in a semi-auto. Better yet, I want to see you load that lever gun with 30 rounds. Or show me an AR in 30-30.

*Bonus goes to AR

I want to see how many hits you can get on target in those six seconds. If you're fast, you'll be empty in four, I'll still be shooting. But where are your rounds vs. mine?

*Bonus goes to AR

Then I want you to look at the construction of a bullet used for 30-30, vs. one used for 300 Blackout. Look at aerodynamics, cross sectional density (aka: Ballistic Coefficient), technical stuff like that, and tell me which one you think is going to go further and maintain more accuracy/penetration? A pointy bullet with a boat tail that slices through the air and produces little drag, or a big old round nose bullet with a flat base. It's like a Ferrari racing a school bus.

A 150 gr 30-30 bullet has a BC of .218
A 150 gr FMJBT .308 has a BC of .409

The higher the number the better. So basically what that means is the Ferrari is capable of greater accuracy/penetration at longer distances than the school bus because it maintains a flatter trajectory due to less deceleration because of less drag and, it is less affected by crosswind. Simply, it carries more energy further.

*Bonus goes to Blackout

Fundamentally, the 300 Blackout is going to leave that 30-30 dick down in the dirt somewhere around 200 to 250 yards.

AND I AM NOT SAYING the 30-30 is an ineffective weapon. It is not. By any stretch of the imagination. I like the 30-30 a lot. I really do.

But it's a completely different gun for a completely different purpose, with completely different limitations.

Both guns are perfectly capable for defense purposes, though the lever gun is limited in capacity, as well as it's ability to quickly get back in the fight once empty. Does it hit harder close up? Yes. Without argument, yes. But I can hit someone three times for your every one at minimum.

Both guns are perfectly capable for hunting purposes. I would not shoot at any animal with either of them beyond 200 yards, though I would be more inclined at 200 with the Blackout.

If I had to choose between a lever gun in 30-30 or an AR in 300 Blackout; for defending myself, taking a really long shot at somebody, or needing to lay down some "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE" cover fire...

Bonus to the Blackout.

Hell, I'd take one for hunting too, just to limit the number of guns I had taking up space and the ammo to go with it. I can do BOTH, EFFECTIVELY, with the Blackout.

Plus it sounds cool..."Blackout"...


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

You make some great points bigdogbuc. That 220 gr A-Max out of my Whisper at 1050 at the muzzle might be starting out really slow but at 100 yards with that increadible BC number its still moving almost that fast! That long heavy bullet likes to tumble on impact depending on the rifling twist and puts quiet a thump on what ever it hits! I haven't found a 300-400 lbs hog that can soak one up and walk away yet! Screw the can on and I can get several before the gig is up and they scatter for cover. Try that with a M1A1...


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Let's do a bit of comparison to bring this discussion back to reality.
The 7.62x39 shoots a 130 grain bullet at 2340 fps.
The Blackout shoots a 150 grain bullet at 1932 fps (it shoots a 125 grain bullet at 2250) slower than the 7.62x39 fires a 130 grain bullet)

The 7.62x39 fires a 130 grain bullet faster than the blackout fires a 125 grain bullet

The 03A3 30-06 has a maximum effective range of 1000 yards - where it has only 408 ft lbs of energy.
The Blackout has only 104 ft lbs of energy at 1000 yards. - at 525 yds it is the same 408 ft lbs that the 30-06 has at 1000 yards with the same 150 grain bullet.

Sighted in at 300 yards the Blackout shoots 80.59 inches low at 500 yards.
The 30-06 is only 31.87 inches low at that same range with the same bullet sighted in at 300 yards.

At the 300 yard sight in range the Blackout will drift 13.2" with a 10 mph crosswind while the 30-06 drifts only 7.08" with the same bullet.

If we consider the maximum effective range of the 30-06 as 1000 yards then the Blackout has a maximum effective range of only slightly over 500 yards.

Penetration between the Blackout and the 7.62x39 is a wash with bullets of the same weight but the heavier bullets will go farther even with the reduced velocity, so using heavy bullets in the blackout will give you more "over penetration" (there ain't no such animal) than the lighter bullet in the 7.62x39. In most regards the 7.62x39 has a slight edge over the Blackout comparing ballistics. It has a larger case capacity that can hold more, slower burning, powder to get higher velocities at the same pressures.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Bigdogbuc,

The only 30-30 that I own is a single shot rifle but at 200 yards I can shoot 5 shots into barely over two inches and I can use any bullet the Blackout uses - just launch them faster. If I need more than one shot then I shouldn't be shooting. At that range I have plenty of time to drop another round in and shoot again from a different position.

I will grant you that at 50 yards the AR has the advantage of faster follow up shots - but why wait until they are on top of you to start shooting?
I also have a semi-auto rifle but it will only be my weapon of choice if I am alone and badly out-numbered. I practice with my bolt action with lead bullets on the 8 inch plates at the local range. I can knock down all six in under five seconds (4.32) - with a bolt gun. Could I do it faster with a semi-auto? I have never tried but I can tell you that the bolt action gives up very little in speed for a lot more accuracy.


This discussion is about the tools, that we as riflemen, use. The gun is just a tool and the weapon is the shooter. I prefer a tool that will take out the target before it is within range to be effective against me. You and every other shooter on this board should choose whatever tool works best for you. That is why we have such a wide range of different tools to choose from.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

You're countering with information that fits your own philosophy and dislike of the round, 3 days after my last "presentation" of facts. And your facts are skewed.

500 yards maximum effective range?









A single shot? That's what I'm competing against? You're changing the rules as you go along friend. Penalty flag on that one.

And the 30-06 is a completely different animal....because next you'll say a Howitzer is a far better weapon. And again, show me an AR in 30-06. Apples to Oranges...let's at least stick to the same genus, like Red Delicious verses Granny Smith.

Paul, I'm invoking the "3 Day Rule" that it took you to respond with your argument. I reject your reality and invoke my own.

I still heart you though buddy. I'm going to agree to disagree...


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

PaulS said:


> Let's do a bit of comparison to bring this discussion back to reality.
> The 7.62x39 shoots a 130 grain bullet at 2340 fps.
> The Blackout shoots a 150 grain bullet at 1932 fps (it shoots a 125 grain bullet at 2250) slower than the 7.62x39 fires a 130 grain bullet)
> 
> ...


Paul, did you even read what I wrote about Ballistic Coefficient? The 7.63x39 bullet is less efficient. I give up. Officially, I give up. It's like talking to a wall.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

You are missing that when I handload my ammo I get to choose what bullet I use. I can fire any bullet out of my 7.62x39 or my 30-30 that you can out of your Blackout. Both will shoot the bullet at a higher velocity and have longer range than your blackout. The problem is, we were talking about the ammunition and not the delivery tool and then you switched to the AR when I was still talking about the ammo.

The fact that I don't get on everyday - or even every other day is my own doing. I have other things to do - if you don't wish to discuss the subject with me then by all means don't. I am not pissing on your choice - only that it was said to have an extreme range when in fact it doesn't. If you like I can run ballistic comparisons using whatever bullet you choose between the 30-30, 7.62x39 and the Blackout. I will use the same bullet - with the same ballistic coefficient, at the listed maximums in my extensive reloading library and show you which bullet will hit the ground first. If you want to talk about rapid fire then I am out in left field because I prefer one shot one kill rather than firing as many rounds as I can carry. I'm sure there are accurate shooters who use the AR platform but the ones I have seen are only a threat to what they are not trying to hit. I don't believe that describes you. I am willing to believe that you can fire effectively at a 10 inch target at extended ranges, while moving to cover, under stress. 

I am not picking on the round or you - just the capabilities of the round in the real world.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

PaulS said:


> You are missing that when I handload my ammo I get to choose what bullet I use. I can fire any bullet out of my 7.62x39 or my 30-30 that you can out of your Blackout. Both will shoot the bullet at a higher velocity and have longer range than your blackout. The problem is, we were talking about the ammunition and not the delivery tool and then you switched to the AR when I was still talking about the ammo.
> 
> The fact that I don't get on everyday - or even every other day is my own doing. I have other things to do - if you don't wish to discuss the subject with me then by all means don't. I am not pissing on your choice - only that it was said to have an extreme range when in fact it doesn't. If you like I can run ballistic comparisons using whatever bullet you choose between the 30-30, 7.62x39 and the Blackout. I will use the same bullet - with the same ballistic coefficient, at the listed maximums in my extensive reloading library and show you which bullet will hit the ground first. If you want to talk about rapid fire then I am out in left field because I prefer one shot one kill rather than firing as many rounds as I can carry. I'm sure there are accurate shooters who use the AR platform but the ones I have seen are only a threat to what they are not trying to hit. I don't believe that describes you. I am willing to believe that you can fire effectively at a 10 inch target at extended ranges, while moving to cover, under stress.
> 
> I am not picking on the round or you - just the capabilities of the round in the real world.


I am such a glutton for punishment. :roll:

I never "switched" to an AR platform. I have discussed nothing but the AR platform for the 300 Blackout, with the exception of saying the H&R AAC Blackout would be a cool thing to own in CONJUNCTION with an AR. Which I did like 6 million posts ago. Other than that, I would not own one. Probably.

You didn't reveal a HUGE part of your argument, your single shot rifle, until your last post. And I'm sure you have other things to do, I don't, I'm day 8 into 83 days of vacation. ::clapping::

You also didn't bring up hand loading until your last, and this, post. You changed the entire point of the discussion at that moment. You, changed the rules. Plain and simple. It was a hit below the belt. I view it almost as a "wildcat" when you start using bullets that weren't meant for the round itself. But whatever. "Oh but if I use this bullet in this case out of this gun, your mom sucks." Whoohoo. Yay.

Commercially loaded 30-30 does not come with a "Spire Point" bullet. And good luck hitting anything with a .308 diameter bullet out of an AK or similar platform. Their bore is bigger, and so is the bullet. Almost like shooting a rifled musket. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it buddy.

So yes Paul, yes, if you hand loaded a Spire Point bullet into a 30-30 cartridge and shot it out of your single shot rifle, in theory, yes, it could outperform my 300 Blackout ballistically. So there. Feel better?

Ya' Cheater. Some peoples kids I swear....


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Yea a 30-30 in a break open rifle or better yet a bolt action rifle with a box mag so I could shoot spire point typical .308 cal bullets would definitely be something I would get a lot more excited about than the 300 Blackout...especially if the chamber was reamed to a Ackley Improved!!! It too would be a very efficient and very practical round in a compact moderate recoiling package. The only down side is the 30-30 will never be chambered in the AR-15 due to its rimmed case design unlike the Blackout.

The biggest advantage to the 300 Blackout or Whisper is the fact that of it can be chambered in a 223/5.56, so can the other two. In the AR it gives you the option of having a gun that's a true platform to work from. On any auto loading rifle I have, I also make it a serious point to the extent that I can to have a bolt action or a single shot break open that will allow me to fire the ammo I have for the auto loader. Hence my interest with the ACC Handi Rifle in 300 Blackout that will accept my can on the end of the barrel just like my AR does.

I don't know about you but I really like having options...even if I never have to default to those options, they are always there as the need arises if it arises.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> Yea a 30-30 in a break open rifle or better yet a bolt action rifle with a box mag so I could shoot spire point typical .308 cal bullets would definitely be something I would get a lot more excited about than the 300 Blackout...especially if the chamber was reamed to a Ackley Improved!!! It too would be a very efficient and very practical round in a compact moderate recoiling package. The only down side is the 30-30 will never be chambered in the AR-15 due to its rimmed case design unlike the Blackout.
> 
> The biggest advantage to the 300 Blackout or Whisper is the fact that of it can be chambered in a 223/5.56, so can the other two. In the AR it gives you the option of having a gun that's a true platform to work from. On any auto loading rifle I have, I also make it a serious point to the extent that I can to have a bolt action or a single shot break open that will allow me to fire the ammo I have for the auto loader. Hence my interest with the ACC Handi Rifle in 300 Blackout that will accept my can on the end of the barrel just like my AR does.
> 
> I don't know about you but I really like having options...even if I never have to default to those options, they are always there as the need arises if it arises.


My concern in a bolt gun in 30-30 (Savage Model 340), would a case loaded with a "Spire Point" bullet be short enough to be able to even load in the magazine/cycle? Again, his argument is Apples to Oranges. I don't know why I keep going at it with him. I take comfort in knowing that at least you and I get it. And Arizona Infidel...


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## Arizona Infidel (Oct 5, 2013)

bigdogbuc said:


> My concern in a bolt gun in 30-30 (Savage Model 340), would a case loaded with a "Spire Point" bullet be short enough to be able to even load in the magazine/cycle? Again, his argument is Apples to Oranges. I don't know why I keep going at it with him. I take comfort in knowing that at least you and I get it. And Arizona Infidel...


Hell ya.


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## Mottmcfly (Jan 21, 2014)

Interesting thread and you guys are WAY smarter than me so please take it easy on my simpleton reply.

I own a DD M4V3 and I love it. I will never part ways with it until I part ways with this planet. I'm also not looking for a .556 replacement. That being said, I picked up a S&W 300 upper, slapped it on the DD lower and have been having a ball. The simplicity to just changing the upper is very appealing to me. This round opens up hunting possibilities that do not exist with the .556. There is no noticeable recoil difference and follow up shots are a breeze. It also sounds bad ass hitting a gong at 75 yards! I've found range ammo that cycles just fine for .72 per round and have ordered some Lehigh Defense (much more $) ammo for testing. 

There's been little range time to really get acquainted with this platform but if all works out, it may become my go to rifle HD preference and I'm an upper swap away if for whatever reason it doesn't work out. 

So far all I can really say is it's been a ton of fun.

Thanks,

Mott


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

the difference with 130gr. spirepoint is about 200 fps between 300blk and 30-30, not a huge difference, the limited data for the blk is probably part of the limiting factor for the round. (looked at the data on Hodgdon's site) For a reloader the ability to use readily available and cheap 5.56 and .223 brass versus the more expensive and harder to find 30-30 is a distinct advantage. The 30-30 is a great round in a lever gun, but it is limited in bullet choice by the tubular magazine (savage 99 excepted) I would not choose 30-30 for any bolt gun or single shot because there are much better choices for those platforms. The 300 blk is designed for the AR platform in much the same way the 30-30 was designed for lever actions, they are both excellent rounds in the action they were designed to operate in and much less so in anything else. (when the 30-30 is loaded with bullets that work in a tubular magazine the advantage over the 300 blk disappears)


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

"The .300 AAC round isn't as cheap as my .22 LR ammo (but is probably more available considering how hard it is to get .22 LR ammo here), doesn't have the knockdown power of my 30-06 at 1,000 yds, and doesn't leave as big a hole as my 45/70, so it's a piece of crap."

Using that argument, if you own a shotgun and a center fire rifle, everything else you own is a waste of money. Maybe a pistol for concealed carry. A 30-06 fires a .308 bullet as does a 30-30, but the 30-06 has better ballistics, so why have a 30-30? A .300 Winchester Magnum has better ballistics then a 30-06, so why own a 30-06? Frankly I don't understand the argument. If you own an AR it would be relatively cheap to simply change the upper group in order to have a .30 caliber magazine fed semi-automatic rifle. Use the same lower group and same magazines. Pretty cool IMO. Maybe it helps that I like loading my own ammo. 

The most compelling argument that I can think of for me getting one is "It's my money, I want one, so if I buy one it's no one's business but mine. If you think that it's a waste of money or just don't want one, don't buy one. Allot of arguments sound to me like "if I don't own it, it's a piece of crap" mentality. Allot of the argument over which handgun to own seems to be the same.

I view firearms similar to owning tools. I have different tools for different jobs. This seems like another good tool to own.


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## Innkeeper (Jun 18, 2014)

Check out the Sig 556XI, it is made to fire the 55.6, .300Black and 7.62x39 it includes 3 different barrel lengths and requires only switching out the Bolt for the changing of calibers. the lower is interchangeable to swap between AR and AK style mags, the serial number is on the upper receiver. I got to hold and check one out at the local gun store and I have been researching it since. I have been wanting to add a piston operated AR to my collection and I am trying to find the best one for the job, I like the mr556a1 as well but it does not offer the round options so readily as the sig. if your thinking about the 300 black this may be a route to go.


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