# Back of the Envelope Calculation for Ammo



## KingM (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm wondering if the forum can help me with a writing research question. I'm writing a series about a farming/ranching community in the Southwest during and after a collapse. I'm trying to figure out roughly how much ammo of all kinds this very prepared community might have. The population is about 3,500. If you saw the end coming, what would be a realistic target for ammo acquisition for handguns, hunting rifles, and shotguns?

Also, they've come into possession of six .50-cal M2s. For the sake of plot, I wanted them to have a limited supply of .50-cal ammo so they can't simply waste it, but they should have enough for a few battles. At 500 rounds/minute per gun, that's going to go fast. Anyone want to suggest an ammo target that would fit my important, but limited qualification?

Thanks!


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

A couple of pallets worth for just ground only targets, a heck of a lot more if any air engagements are anticipated.

Seriously a good 50 cal mount crew will fire 4-8 round burst at a time and about 6 burst a minute on a surface target from a (stand up) tripod mouted M2 in most situations. At least that's been my experience as a 50 cal mount captain in the Navy.


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## KingM (Aug 1, 2013)

LunaticFringeInc said:


> A couple of pallets worth for just ground only targets, a heck of a lot more if any air engagements are anticipated.
> 
> Seriously a good 50 cal mount crew will fire 4-8 round burst at a time and about 6 burst a minute on a surface target from a (stand up) tripod mouted M2 in most situations. At least that's been my experience as a 50 cal mount captain in the Navy.


Thanks, this is ground only. Due to fuel shortage and civil war elsewhere in the country, they're mostly free from air threats, short of a drone attack early in book 7 (the current volume). I'm operating under the assumption that if anything comes from the air they're screwed. They're mostly facing armed squatters (who've heard about their food and supplies), bandits, and some irregular forces that may or may not be affiliated with the government.

How many rounds would be in a pallet of .50 cal? The current draft has 1/4 million rounds, but I'm thinking that might be unrealistically high. Also, I don't want them to feel they can meet any threat with the heavy stuff. For plot purposes, it's more interesting if they have to face minor threats with small arms.

As for the small arms stuff, I'm assuming that each family is going to have a few thousand rounds of assorted stuff, so maybe 5 million community wide? Does that sound realistic?


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

Back if napkin.. 3,500 people I'd say or guess that of the population 2/3 own a gun (husband/wife/children) and of this 2/3rds average 2k rounds. That would get you to the 5m round mark. Sounds reasonable. Could easily be much higher.


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## Nathan Jefferson (May 11, 2013)

Do you want to talk just .50 or everything else? How prepared are they? If you knew the end was coming you'd have a gun for every adult and near adult, plus spares. then you'd have 5-10k rounds per rifle, plus training ammo. Then you have hunting .22lr and 12ga 20ga, with thousands of .22lr being the goal per person. And don't forget sidearms so you have piles of .45acp, 9mm, .40s&w, etc.

So I guess it depends on what you want to portray - if you ask most of the people here what they have it will be in the thousands of rounds. (I hope! unless it's higher) if you look at most of 'gun culture' they generally have a box of 50 per gun, if that, on average. Guns will be PLENTIFUL, ammo not so much. 

Also, 6 M2s will take care of a LOT... Unless you are talking armor rolling in on them.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I would assume half the people own at least one gun. Most of them would have very little ammo, say 50 rounds on hand. Maybe 10% would be gun nuts and preppers (technically, these aren't the same thing) and might average 5,000 rounds each. I would say the total average would be somewhere around 500 rounds per gun owner or less. Then again, at least a few of these would own gun shops and might have a ton of ammo stashed.

I wouldn't expect the .50s to have more than their average combat loadout of about 1,000 rounds each if they came from a mechanized unit.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I just googled it and found that the basic load for a vehicle mounted .50 is 400 rounds, which sounds about right to me.

If the guns were taken from a static position, like a firebase perimeter or something, they would probably have lots of ammo handy.


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## Nathan Jefferson (May 11, 2013)

Prepadoodle said:


> I just googled it and found that the basic load for a vehicle mounted .50 is 400 rounds, which sounds about right to me.
> 
> If the guns were taken from a static position, like a firebase perimeter or something, they would probably have lots of ammo handy.


Doesn't the standard .50 cal can hold 250? that would mean they have a can plus 150 in the hopper? I dunno, I've never shot an M2...

But your post about quantities is spot on - except I would think the 10% you listed would be much closer to 3% or so.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

If I remember right, the can holds 100. You mount the can on the gun, so it is the hopper, at least with the 50s I've messed with.


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## KingM (Aug 1, 2013)

Prepadoodle said:


> I would assume half the people own at least one gun. Most of them would have very little ammo, say 50 rounds on hand. Maybe 10% would be gun nuts and preppers (technically, these aren't the same thing) and might average 5,000 rounds each. I would say the total average would be somewhere around 500 rounds per gun owner or less. Then again, at least a few of these would own gun shops and might have a ton of ammo stashed.


They're _all _preppers. This is the blurb for the sixth book. I'm working on #7 right now and facing a full-scale battle.

_With the murderous Kimball clan's evil power plays finally put down, Dr. Jacob Christianson begins to embrace his role as leader of the Mormon polygamist community of Blister Creek, hoping to slowly bring his people into the modern age. But then the world around Blister Creek begins to fall apart: An international crop failure and global starvation. Freezing temperatures and active volcanoes. Fuel and medicine shortages. Widespread lawlessness and looming war. The residents of Blister Creek suddenly find themselves facing the very end-of-the-world scenario they've been preparing for. Years of stockpiling guns, ammunition, food, and fuel are paying off: They are ready to wait out whatever God has in store for them.

Unfortunately, their preparations have not gone unnoticed. A newly empowered government agency and a vengeful governor have their sights set on Blister Creek and are plotting to take control of their supplies. Can Jacob defend his community, calm his terrified people, quell an armed rebellion, and keep government forces out of his people's business? Only God knows.

Set in a dangerously beautiful landscape against a backdrop of apocalyptic worldwide collapse, The Gates of Babylon is the sixth book in Michael Wallace's acclaimed Righteous series._


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## KingM (Aug 1, 2013)

Prepadoodle said:


> I wouldn't expect the .50s to have more than their average combat loadout of about 1,000 rounds each if they came from a mechanized unit.


So they were suffering military occupation that left them the guns and ammo when the military pulled out in a hurry. But it does sound like maybe 250,000 rounds is too much. I'm now thinking maybe 75,000 rounds. Also, I think I'll lose two of the guns. But I'm going to stick to my 5 million small-arms ammo for the community. Maybe even a little more.

Thanks for the advice everyone. It is really helping me clarify the situation. Writing so often is figuring out what you need for the expediencies of the plot and then working backward to set it up properly.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

Been a while since I have humped and shot a 50 cal but I believe the linked ammo comes 1 x 100 round belts to a can and I believe that there are 48 cans per a pallet, aka...Fleet Issue Unit Load. FIUL, is how the ammunition is delivered to end users storage facilities unless its a "Lite" pallet, ie an incomplete load on a pallet. Did some searching on the net and didn't come up with any info without having to pay to buy the Mil Std. No one I know in weapons is in the office yet so I can call and find out.

I do distinctly remember that at each 50 cal gun mount onboard ship had two cans for a total of 200 rounds on tap to defend against a small boat attack. Our 50 cal teams consisted of a shooter, loader, 2 handlers (gophers) to swap barrels and get more ammo and a mount captian who maintained comms with Combat Information Center and directed the team as ordered. I didn't have a great career as a mount captian as my crew had a tendency to actually hit the target on a too consistent basis forcing the Helo in the air to have to land back on board ship and get more "smokes" to drop in the water so the other 14 mounts would have something to shoot at on small boat attack drills. Yeah I trained my crew that good, ha ha ha. It used to really piss the Gun Boss and the flight crews off big time.


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## KingM (Aug 1, 2013)

LunaticFringe,

That's excellent info. Thanks.


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