# I have a few questions.



## firefighter72 (Apr 18, 2014)

I go to a public school, and they do somethings (that are what I think is very odd/unlawful, but it is no were near as bad as some of the other HS around). Now this year they made us sign an agreement to be randomly drug tested in order to take votec classes(JROTC, welding, shop, auto, etc), but if you didn't agree you can't take any votec class. Here's the funny thing is you have to be a completer in at least one votec class to graduate(have 4 credits of one class). Now is that technically legal? They are a public school, so shouldn't they have to follow public laws? They don't have the machines you walk through like at airports, and they don't search our bags(at least not yet any ways, if they get those that's going to be too far for me). If they did do that it wouldn't be legal/right would it? Isn't that a violation of everyone's 4th amendment right? (The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.)


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

FF72

We've seen the erosion of our Constitutional Rights by Regulatory Law and Ordinances for many many years now. Yet our society continues to trade Freedom/Liberty for False Security. More than likely your public school system has implemented some rules/laws or ordinances that make this policy perfectly legal. It does not make it Right , or Just or even Constitutional, but in a really screwed up way, it still may be legal. And even if its not, most won't or can't fight "city hall". FUBAR, Yes...But it's "choice" as to how to proceed.


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

The public school system is run by mindless liberals.

Yea so if you are just a regular student and don't take extra classes. Do they test the other kids? 

They had a drug sniffing dog in my HS. Every so often. 

It's always funny that the liberals run public school and its a drug free zone. But as soon as you enter a college its all of a sudden tolerated.


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## firefighter72 (Apr 18, 2014)

Slippy said:


> FF72
> 
> We've seen the erosion of our Constitutional Rights by Regulatory Law and Ordinances for many many years now. Yet our society continues to trade Freedom/Liberty for False Security. More than likely your public school system has implemented some rules/laws or ordinances that make this policy perfectly legal. It does not make it Right , or Just or even Constitutional, but in a really screwed up way, it still may be legal. And even if its not, most won't or can't fight "city hall". FUBAR, Yes...But it's "choice" as to how to proceed.


Well it sucks. This is the country our founding fathers warned us of, and yet no one cares. "Those who trade an ounce of liberty for an ounce or security will get neither and deserves neither." Ben Franklin


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

Years ago when working for a public school district, I know a lot of the "rules" were put in place because of insurance requirements. I remember a bunch of elementary school desks had to be scrapped because some kid in another school in a different state got his - uh - potty part slammed in the top. 

I also remember when school districts didn't need to have a full time lawyer on staff.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

firefighter72 said:


> I go to a public school, and they do somethings (that are what I think is very odd/unlawful, but it is no were near as bad as some of the other HS around). Now this year they made us sign an agreement to be randomly drug tested in order to take votec classes(JROTC, welding, shop, auto, etc), but if you didn't agree you can't take any votec class. Here's the funny thing is you have to be a completer in at least one votec class to graduate(have 4 credits of one class). Now is that technically legal? They are a public school, so shouldn't they have to follow public laws? They don't have the machines you walk through like at airports, and they don't search our bags(at least not yet any ways, if they get those that's going to be too far for me). If they did do that it wouldn't be legal/right would it? Isn't that a violation of everyone's 4th amendment right? (The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.)


http://www.youthadvocacydepartment.org/jdn/resourcedocs/school-search-and-seizure.pdf


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Public school not about education it is indoctrination. They will use many forms of control to bring you to their way of thinking. Your post is an example. They are teaching you there is no constitution. There is only what they feel at the time is best. Best advise is to resist and as soon as you can get away from public education.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

MrsInor said:


> Years ago when working for a public school district, I know a lot of the "rules" were put in place because of insurance requirements. I remember a bunch of elementary school desks had to be scrapped because some kid in another school in a different state got his - uh - potty part slammed in the top.
> 
> I also remember when school districts didn't need to have a full time lawyer on staff.


Excellent point Mrs I and it leads me to give some advise to the youngsters out there...If you don't want them slammed in desks, please keep your potty parts in your pants.
Thanks!


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

Again I say that being Liberal is a mental disorder! they dont want people on welfare drug tested because they say that would be violating their rights, but they want to drug test our children before letting them take a class that they need to pass in order to graduate High School...


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

I know you feel your rights are being violated but I can see why they are doing this. Say some kid comes to a class , say welding or a machine shop half stoned and hurts or kills himself The school district would be liable and his parents could very possibly end up with a large settlement at the taxpayers expense. I say if you are not on drugs get tested, take a class and move on.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I think the biggest problem is they lack of understanding in the difference of public school vice government school. All government buildings are in fact owned by the public so there for our rights should be even more protected there vice in privately owned buildings where the owner has a right to dictate entry standards. The government has corrupted this under standing by using terms like federal building or lands instead of public buildings and lands or state owned vice public. The government owns nothing....except their dismal record of service.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Things sure have changed.
So, what I am understanding is this - (1) you have to voluntarily submit to drug testing to take certain classes, and (2) you can not graduate without passing at least one of these classes.
The fact that rule (2) is in place makes rule (1) mandatory and not voluntary.
This is a test court case if I ever saw one. To me it is clearly unconstitutional.

How far we have gone in the last 50 years. Then, we started every school day by reciting in homeroom the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lords Prayer. Most boys carried pocket knives and some schools even had rifle shooting teams. Robert E. Lee's birthday was a school holiday. We said "Sir" and "Ma'am" to our teachers and if you required discipline most of the time that entailed 3 swats on the butt with a paddle.
Things worked well back then.

Then liberals came along and "improved" the system.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Things sure have changed.
> So, what I am understanding is this - (1) you have to voluntarily submit to drug testing to take certain classes, and (2) you can not graduate without passing at least one of these classes.
> The fact that rule (2) is in place makes rule (1) mandatory and not voluntary.
> This is a test court case if I ever saw one. To me it is clearly unconstitutional.
> ...


RPD Just Nailed It^^^^^^


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

slewfoot said:


> I say if you are not on drugs get tested, take a class and move on.


Lets use this same logic on welfare recipients, If they are not on drugs then take the test to prove it.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Doc Holliday said:


> Lets use this same logic on welfare recipients, If they are not on drugs then take the test to prove it.


Exactly.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

Lets be clear about this, you do not have a right to go into a vocational shop while on drugs.

The problem that I have is the random testing, iether test everyone or don't test anyone. That is how drinking and driving stop checks are done.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

To even become a teacher now you must come through a liberal education system . You have to earn your places as a liberal. To get hired you must show you are a good liberal. Even if you are not you must convince them you are. You then must sign on lock step with every liberal cause. Not much chance for students in a system like that.


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## TG (Jul 28, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> I say if you are not on drugs get tested, take a class and move on.


Exactly


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## A J (Oct 16, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> I know you feel your rights are being violated but I can see why they are doing this. Say some kid comes to a class , say welding or a machine shop half stoned and hurts or kills himself The school district would be liable and his parents could very possibly end up with a large settlement at the taxpayers expense. I say if you are not on drugs get tested, take a class and move on.


I think you missed the OP's point. He has to take one of these classes to graduate and has to be drug tested to graduate, therefore he has to be drug tested to graduate.

AJ


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

A J said:


> I think you missed the OP's point. He has to take one of these classes to graduate and has to be drug tested to graduate, therefore he has to be drug tested to graduate.
> 
> AJ


I am not missing the point, If you are not on drugs and need this to graduate ,get tested, take the class, and graduate. No problem other than he has a hang up about legalities. I say get past that do what you have to do to get graduated or don't and spend your life without a diploma and that job you wanted wishing you had tested.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Home school your self for the last year. Tell them to go :68:.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

So... Did you sign it?? 

Your under 18, your signature is not worth shit

But to the issue, it sounds like a OH&S issue, where you are using tools, and combined with drugs = a mess... A very red mess, it sounds like a waste of schools limited resources


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Here is your answer,
Can Schools Conduct Random Drug Testing?

The United States Supreme Court upheld a public school district's authority to randomly drug test middle and high school students who participate in extracurricular activities. The court held that random drug testing is an effective means of meeting the school district's legitimate concern regarding detecting and preventing illegal drug use by students. This ruling greatly expands public school's drug testing policies.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

More on this subject.
Drug Testing Law, Supreme Court, Students, Schools, drug testing


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

pheniox17 said:


> So... Did you sign it??
> 
> Your under 18, your signature is not worth shit


True, they must obtain a parent or guardians consent but if they don't you will not graduate. If you are against it you are in a lose lose situation.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Schools operate under a long established and legitimized doctrine known as "in loco parentis." It means when a school student is away from mummy and daddy during the school day or at extracurricular activities..the Principal of the School is their Surrogate Parent and is generally empowered to make decisions based on the best interest of the child and the other children at the school. The concept transcends much legal mumbo jumbo.

In loco parentis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

Who pays for the testing?

This goes to the whole if you've got nothing to hide why not let me search you?


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

instead of providing your own urine, buy some doe in heat urine give it a shake in a unwashed container of cottage cheese, and slip that into your urine jar.


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

There is a heat sensor on the pee cup.

Oh but where does it end? Can I come in and inspect all of your firearms?


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## Dubyagee (Nov 9, 2012)

Lawyers rule the world. From both sides they weaken the system. Labeling themselves whatever gets them the power. Through insurance companies they can control most businesses. Government regulation takes care of the rest. The school system is living proof.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Dubyagee said:


> Lawyers rule the world. From both sides they weaken the system. Labeling themselves whatever gets them the power. Through insurance companies they can control most businesses. Government regulation takes care of the rest. The school system is living proof.


The easy meat first, while the monkeys chant "Get 'em" and then the monkeys get their own prescription.....standard divide and conquer, just add "and your kids". I helped people learn to navigate the home school thing. Met plenty who couldn't care less too.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

A coal mine that I have family working at recently stopped screening their new applicants with a piss test. Apparently, they decided that the caliber of the workers they were hiring was negatively affected by the piss test.

Instead, they piss test anyone that gets into an accident.

Don't figure eh?


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## A J (Oct 16, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> I am not missing the point, If you are not on drugs and need this to graduate ,get tested, take the class, and graduate. No problem other than he has a hang up about legalities. I say get past that do what you have to do to get graduated or don't and spend your life without a diploma and that job you wanted wishing you had tested.


So you are OK with mandatory testing of all public school kids that are trying to graduate?

Just trying to clarify your position.

If so, where do YOU draw the line? How about searching their bedrooms? Or drug testing the parents?

AJ


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## firefighter72 (Apr 18, 2014)

Here's my problem with "if your not on drugs just get tested", it's not right. I have a problem with at random things. Do it one of two ways 1; test everyone at the same time(the date you test can be at random, but it has to be everyone together on the same day) or 2; profile people. There's people you can just look at and tell they are on drugs and most people on drugs have a certain attitude. Plus the same could be said for your house, car, firearms, boat, plane, helicopter, space ship, and any thing else you might own. Think of it like this... The state you live in has some gun crime, so the state makes everyone register every single firearm you own, and if you don't then you get arrested. Every time there's a gun related crime in your area they come and do test on all of your firearms. Then they pass a law that makes firearms illegal. blah blah blah(i know most of you can poke a hole in this story in many places but this is for the sheeple who would go along with it). So everyone has turned in their firearms, now what? Whos to stop them from doing what ever they want. Don't say it can't come to a point like that. Think back to when you were a kid and the laws and rules that were around, if someone would have told you it would be like this now you would laugh in their face about it.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

Ok -- here's a slightly different bit of advice for you FF72.

First off, I am not going to ask you directly if you take drugs -- and even if I did ask, you should NOT volunteer that information on an open form like this.

But, if by chance you are on drugs, get the hell off of them PRONTO. You are becoming an adult and taking drugs is simply the stupidest thing you can do to mess up your future .... period. My advice is going to be laughed at by the masses. But I am focusing right now on one person ... FF72. Go against the grain. Be a mature, responsible young man instead of a camp-follower.

Yeah the system is stacked against you. Perhaps it is even unconstitutional? Sometime down the road, you can maybe work towards changing the system. Perhaps we can get the pendulum to swing the other way and get conservatives in charge of our educational system throughout the country. Perhaps someday pigs will fly. But the reality is -- your school is doing something NOW that could drastically affect your future. You can run, but you can't hide. Outsmart them by being clean, and when they call you in for the test, put a big smile on and laugh in their faces.

What's the old saying? Live to fight another day.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

firefighter72 said:


> Here's my problem with "if your not on drugs just get tested", it's not right. I have a problem with at random things. Do it one of two ways 1; test everyone at the same time(the date you test can be at random, but it has to be everyone together on the same day) or 2; profile people. There's people you can just look at and tell they are on drugs and most people on drugs have a certain attitude. Plus the same could be said for your house, car, firearms, boat, plane, helicopter, space ship, and any thing else you might own. Think of it like this... The state you live in has some gun crime, so the state makes everyone register every single firearm you own, and if you don't then you get arrested. Every time there's a gun related crime in your area they come and do test on all of your firearms. Then they pass a law that makes firearms illegal. blah blah blah(i know most of you can poke a hole in this story in many places but this is for the sheeple who would go along with it). So everyone has turned in their firearms, now what? Whos to stop them from doing what ever they want. Don't say it can't come to a point like that. Think back to when you were a kid and the laws and rules that were around, if someone would have told you it would be like this now you would laugh in their face about it.


is this the hill you want to die on?


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

You need to take a drug test to graduate high school. Yet you are not required to take any tests to live off of welfare for the rest of your natural life. Says Confucius.


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## firefighter72 (Apr 18, 2014)

DerBiermeister said:


> Ok -- here's a slightly different bit of advice for you FF72.
> 
> First off, I am not going to ask you directly if you take drugs -- and even if I did ask, you should NOT volunteer that information on an open form like this.
> 
> ...


No I don't do any drugs (don't even smoke or dip). I just have a problem with things that aren't right... or that don't feel right.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

firefighter72 said:


> I go to a public school, and they do somethings (that are what I think is very odd/unlawful, but it is no were near as bad as some of the other HS around). Now this year they made us sign an agreement to be randomly drug tested in order to take votec classes(JROTC, welding, shop, auto, etc), but if you didn't agree you can't take any votec class. Here's the funny thing is you have to be a completer in at least one votec class to graduate(have 4 credits of one class). Now is that technically legal? They are a public school, so shouldn't they have to follow public laws? They don't have the machines you walk through like at airports, and they don't search our bags(at least not yet any ways, if they get those that's going to be too far for me). If they did do that it wouldn't be legal/right would it? Isn't that a violation of everyone's 4th amendment right? (The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.)


This is a lawyer thing not a liberal thing. Taking classes like welding or shop, of course they want to make sure you're not on drugs. Although I do think every kids should be tested not just a certain group. Their rules may be stupid but you have to follow them. There are certain rights you don't have while attending a public school or while in the workplace. In your private life you should be able to do what you want (without breaking the law) but while in school or at work you have to follow their rules (stupid or not). You do have a choice in this matter, you follow the rules or you don't go there.


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## Ian (Dec 12, 2014)

First off, this is constitutional (I think) but also completely wrong, its been sad several times but they should test everyone or not at all. If this was at, say a welfare building, or to qualify for food stamps than the whole media system would be throwing a fit and it would be a big news story. But let me tell you something were minors, our rights relay belong to our parents/guardians and in general we don't count for much without our parents say.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

tinkerhell said:


> A coal mine that I have family working at recently stopped screening their new applicants with a piss test. Apparently, they decided that the caliber of the workers they were hiring was negatively affected by the piss test.
> 
> Instead, they piss test anyone that gets into an accident.
> 
> Don't figure eh?


There ya go..that's how the system works. If a house painter falls off his ladder and breaks a leg...first thing he gets is a wee wee test. If it shows positive..workman's comp is off the hook for paying the medical bills. it all goes back to lawyers and insurance companies.


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## tinkerhell (Oct 8, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> There ya go..that's how the system works. If a house painter falls off his ladder and breaks a leg...first thing he gets is a wee wee test. If it shows positive..workman's comp is off the hook for paying the medical bills. it all goes back to lawyers and insurance companies.


Quite a few OTC and presciption drugs can fail the test. So far, everyone suspended has been reinstated after about a year. Lost wages owed to employee.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Testing hot does not stop work mans comp claim common misconception

As someone that deals a lot with testing I can tell you the test done today will tell you what drug it was often by brand name.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Smitty901 said:


> Testing hot does not stop work mans comp claim common misconception
> 
> As someone that deals a lot with testing I can tell you the test done today will tell you what drug it was often by brand name.


Well thanks for clearing that up. What is the goal of the testing after an accident?


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

A J said:


> So you are OK with mandatory testing of all public school kids that are trying to graduate?
> 
> Just trying to clarify your position.
> 
> ...


Yes, if they are going to be running machinery that can kill or injure by all means test.
If my child was suspected of selling drugs at school or possessing a weapon, search all you want.
Testing parents may be a way to help stem the flow of drugs. If you have nothing to hide why fear?


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