# 1911 if not a 45 is it 1911



## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

I'm thinking about buying a 1911. I was set on buying a 45 but saw a 9mm in a 1911 profile (if that is the correct way to put it). Since I have a 9mm Ruger and a 45 S&W governor I'm not sure what to do. The governor needs 45 Colts or I must use an adaptor so it hardly helps cut down on the different Amos to stock. So the 1911 9mm seems logical. But a 1911 that is not a 45 hardly seems like a 1911 but I'd likely buy a lighter shorter barrel anyway.

So what should a short fat old man buy in a 1911?


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

My favorites are 1911s in 9mm. Before the boat accident I had a Kimber, Colt and RIA that is my outdoor open carry weapon. I am still hoping for a series 70 commander (4.25 inch) in 9mm some day. 

One negative is you can't throw a Kimber 22 Conv on them very easy. I've had the RIA worked on to make it so but don't reccommend.


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## LunaticFringeInc (Nov 20, 2012)

1911's come chambered in a whole host of calibers with the 9mm Luger, 45 ACP, 40 S&W, 9mm Largo, 10MM, 451 Detonics, 400 Corbon just to name a few. 1911 refer more to the design vs caliber although 45 ACP is probably the most common and the original caliber its chambered in.


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## Moonshinedave (Mar 28, 2013)

Brother Palmetto, I'd buy what I wanted, you are thinking too much. I've heard this from my friends, "why did you get that?" "you should've got this.....ect" I figure it's my money, I'll get what I think I want, I strongly suggest you do the same.


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## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

I just got the notion that a 1911 is a 45. I usually do as I please but just wanted to check. Sometimes designs are better for particular calibers.


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## Old Man (Dec 10, 2012)

I have 1911's in 45ACP,40S&W,9mm. They are all great! My 9mm is springfield. Great firearm. Get what you like!


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

If you ever get a chance to pick up a Kimber dedicated 22LR in 1911 you won't mistake it for a 45 after picking it up. I'm likely to sell mine and buy a 45 to GI with the conv kit.



PalmettoTree said:


> I just got the notion that a 1911 is a 45. I usually do as I please but just wanted to check. Sometimes designs are better for particular calibers.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

Budsgunshop has (or had last week) a 10mm 1911 on sale CHEAP!

This isn't the 1911, but 16 rounds of 10mm!?! That's more firepower than all of Italy, in your right hand!

Glock 20 10mm 15 Rnd Fixed Sights $545.00 SHIPS FREE


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

Ripon said:


> My favorites are 1911s in 9mm. Before the boat accident I had a Kimber, Colt and RIA that is my outdoor open carry weapon. I am still hoping for a series 70 commander (4.25 inch) in 9mm some day.
> 
> One negative is you can't throw a Kimber 22 Conv on them very easy. I've had the RIA worked on to make it so but don't reccommend.


The 9mm Commander was Bill Cosby's carry in the show I Spy. I've had some friends who had this they swore by it and I must admit it shot sweet made me wonder how it would be in forty?


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## pastornator (Apr 5, 2013)

Why downsize? Stick with the caliber that actually works for defense work. 9mm equals 38 special and that is a low power round.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

9mm is a round designed to meet FBI windshield penetration requirements when cops and agents were getting out gunned back in the Chicago gangsta days. The .38's, and .32's they were carrying literally bounced off the "new" safety glass in automobiles. For personal protection 9mm is even more useless than .223. The small bullet is propelled at such high speed it doesn't expand at all before passing through a human body (unless your shooting through a windshield first). YEARS of field experience and testing have shown the ideal speed a bullet should be traveling to maximize damage to a human body is aprox. 850fps. EXACTLY the speed of most 230gr HP .45 ACP rounds (not an accident). OR, if your concerned about .45's recoil impeding follow up shots, the hand guns being to heavy / large a weapon for practical CCW. Look at .380 ACP. Same bullet as a 9mm, but traveling at appropriate speeds for maximum damage to a human torso.

Personally, living in SC, I carry a Ruger LCP. If I were in MI in the winter, or anywhere people were wearing multiple layers of heavy clothing, and I had heavier cloths to support the weight and hide the MUCH bulkier weapon. I'd have the G30 on me for added stopping power.

REMEBER: Handguns should only be used so you can fight your way to a proper long gun (in the trunk of your car?). ONE shot of 12ga 2 3/4" 00 buck is equal to NINE rounds from a 9mm pistol in bullet diameter and velocity. All hitting at the exact same time!

https://www.swatmag.com/articles/9mm-vs.-.45-here-we-go-again


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

If you get one in .38 super you could have a 9mm barrel fit and have a pretty easy convertible between 9mm and .38 super. 9mm is more powerful than .38 spc. and .38 super is pretty close on the heels of the .357mag.


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

BigCheeseStick said:


> Budsgunshop has (or had last week) a 10mm 1911 on sale CHEAP!
> 
> This isn't the 1911, but 16 rounds of 10mm!?! *That's more firepower than all of Italy, in your right hand*!
> 
> Glock 20 10mm 15 Rnd Fixed Sights $545.00 SHIPS FREE


I'm not a 10mm fan, but that made me laugh, lol.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Anything .32 and above will get the job done. I saw a store clerk get murdered with a Lorcin .25 and every round went completely through him.
I have a 4th model Smith and Wesson top break .32 from the 1800's that was standard issue for Police back then. Don't buy into the knockdown myth. I've seen many of the tiny ones, including a single shot from a .22 kill a human. shot placement is all that matters.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

January 1973 the Aryan Brotherhood had a family tiff at the Arizona State Prison in Florence. Six shots were fired the result four killed two wounded. The shooters weapon? A .25 automatic. His ammo hardball. Do I carry this? Nope. It demonstrates any caliber can succeed just as a recent shooting by a police officer of a felon 13 times with a .45 acp(The felon then went to the hospital) shows any caliber can fail. Real life may be a ballistics laboratory but we are still accumulating and interpreting the data. The three main factors in determining stopping power are shot placement shot placement and shot placement. Whether you cause CNS disconnect bleed out or structural failure with one shot or twenty, you gotta get the job done.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

BigCheeseStick said:


> 9mm is a round designed to meet FBI windshield penetration requirements when cops and agents were getting out gunned back in the Chicago gangsta days. The .38's, and .32's they were carrying literally bounced off the "new" safety glass in automobiles.


Say what? 
The 9MM Parabellum (the correct designation) was German in origin and the handgun that fired it was the P-08 Luger. The model P-08 refering to the year it was adopted by the German army - 1908.
You MAY be thinking of the 38 Super, or the 38/55 revolver round, but not the 9MM.
And there was no "FBI windshield penetration requirements" in the 1930's. That didn't happen until after the famous Hollywood shootout in the 1980's between the cops and Matix and Platt.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The 9mm is just slightly less powerful (velocity with bullet weight) than the 38 Special +P rounds. The 38 typically is both a few fps faster and the bullets weigh a grain or two more.

The 38 Special went through the same "windshield test" as the FBI uses to rate all there guns and it was found that the typical "police" round (200 grain LRN) would bounce off the windshield at certain angles. The 9mm did not but then either does the 38 Special +P. The 1911 45 ACP was replaced by the 357 Magnum but that was "difficult" for some officers to control so they went to the 9mm. The 9mm was replaced by the 10mm for a short time but it was also "difficult" for some officers to control - surprising considering it is a ballistic double of the 357 Mag. The 40 S&W replaced the 10mm as the gun they now use - which is the ballistic twin of the 45 ACP. 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

Good Question Palmetto! Here is my train of thought, which sometimes goes off the rail, but anyway, here it goes.

I personally look at anything that is not a true 1911, as in original manufacture with Colt on the side, or with changes approved by the man himself, as "Patterned" or "Cloned". I had a Norinco 1911A1, full sized, built right from the blueprints of Colt, made in China, and it was a clone. And honestly, it shot better than the Colt 1991A1 I used to have. 

Anymore, the term 1911 is simply a descriptor of a firearm that we instantly recognize in our brain, copied after a pattern of the Original 1911 that we all know, love and hold dear to our hearts. It's like saying "I want a gun." We all know what a gun is, but what type? With that said, a handgun patterned after the dimensions of this iconic masterpiece, commonly referred to as a 1911, regardless of the caliber, is a fine, fine thing to own.

I simply prefer the more traditional approach and prefer using the round that was originally designed for it, not saying that is better, or worse, than any other caliber. So get what you're comfortable with and enjoy that 1911.


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

I love the 1911 and the 45acp round but if you like a 1911 in 9mm then I say get it.....

Doc


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Big fan of the 1911 45. However if you want a full size 9mm there are better options.
Weapons like the SR9 Ruger would serve you much better at a lower cost.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Just my two cents... I have nothing against any caliber and own weapons in many different calibers because they all have their uses. I have witnessed many victims to gunshot wounds and their all bad. I will say that my opinion when it comes to 1911’s that the best caliber is .45 because of the 1911’s in other calibers tended to be finicky and unreliable. At my agency we had a group buy of a top end custom Para-Ordnance 1911 in .40 for $725. Smoking deal so I ordered one, and received a beautiful pistol that wouldn’t shoot worth a damn. I contacted Para explaining my dilemma and they told me that they were having problems with the magazines and I should buy the upgraded spring kits at $30 a pop from Midway or Brownell’s. I said that I believed they should make the repairs since it was just purchased. I was told that that wasn’t going to happen. The pistol had many problems and I do know my way around a 1911 and never had problems like I had with the Para. I traded the pistol for three Glocks and never looked back. I have a few friends that have the Springfield EMP in 9mm and .40 and they love them. I would think that this would be the platform that I would choose if I was going to do a 1911 in another caliber than .45 ACP.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

PalmettoTree said:


> I just got the notion that a 1911 is a 45. I usually do as I please but just wanted to check. Sometimes designs are better for particular calibers.


LOL! I believe a 1911 is .45 Automatic Centerfire Pistol only and everything else is 1911 wannabe. Of course, I have been called Dinosaur so many times that I put it down as an alias whenever filling out paperwork requiring such knowledge. :razz:

Regardless, get the caliber that is best for you. It would be logical to get it in the caliber of the ammo that is stocked up under your bed.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Say what?
> The 9MM Parabellum (the correct designation) was German in origin and the handgun that fired it was the P-08 Luger. The model P-08 refering to the year it was adopted by the German army - 1908.
> You MAY be thinking of the 38 Super, or the 38/55 revolver round, but not the 9MM.
> And there was no "FBI windshield penetration requirements" in the 1930's. That didn't happen until after the famous Hollywood shootout in the 1980's between the cops and Matix and Platt.


Your 100% right, I shouldn't have said "was designed", but rather "was adopted" for its windshield penetration ballistics.

Now that you got me started...   

GREAT movie guns. Low recoil for the more feminine Hollywood sort. AND good for gang bangers who don't REALLY care if they kill / stop somebody, just want to scare, intimidate, send each other to a hospital for free medical care.

EASILY best accessory for anyone loyal to 9mm:
View attachment 2415


_Never_ known a 9mm owner who didn't have or want an AR! (lets face it, it's ALL ABOUT being gullible to a flashy marketing scheme), so as not to deprive...
View attachment 2416


Sorry, but anybody who actually did ANY research on ballistics, weapon performance, or had real world experience with 9mm, 5.56, or .223 on humans BEFORE they ran out and bought one (at which point they became ridiculously product loyal and biased) would never own such a fallacy to the weapons world.

"The ammo is cheap"? Whats your life worth? Ammo's cheap because SOOOOOO many people got suckered in by EXCELLENT manufacture marketing to unedjumacated masses.

"The military uses them!" - Due ONLY to the lining of political pockets! McNamara should've been thrown in prison for treason decades ago!

5.56, and .223 are GREAT ground squirrel calibers. NO denying that! With the number of ground squirrels running about out West, though a superior caliber, the ammo for 22-250 just costs to much in comparison imo.

Then again, 
View attachment 2417


The "pet peeve" thread elsewhere... I really should have put something about the American people being fooled into their following of these calibers (AND .40 S&W for that matter). But try my hardest to avoid the whole topic because of the _masses_ of people that pee'd away their money, and are now _driven by pride to be loyal to a bad decision_. 

Rant: Over


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Anyway you cut it, no one wants to be shot by any of them.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> Anyway you cut it, no one wants to be shot by any of them.


Agree! even the lowly 22RF pack more energy than I'd want to get tangled up with!


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I have a Taurus 1911 in .45 ACP. I like having the ability to put one of my rounds on the table next to one from my GF's .40, snickering, and going on about what a "cute little girl gun" she has. She hasn't shot me yet, but there have been a few close calls.

It's also nice to be able to say (in an Aussie accent), "That's not a gun, _this_ is a gun," while brandishing it with a flourish.

I've been carrying a .45 for decades, I'm too old to change my ways.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Here's hoping your girlfriend doesn't shoot you. The 40 S&W is ballistically identical to the 45ACP. That is, it's easy to control recoil and its terminal ballistics are so close you couldn't tell them apart. They shoot the same weight bullets at nearly identical velocities and with the same bullet construction the same weight and construction bullet in 40 will penetrate just a touch further than the 45. Both were designed to stop a man. Not necessarily kill him DRT but to stop him so you have time for the next shot if necessary.

Other than the fact that they are used in semi-autos they are great rounds.


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## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

I must admit many people like their 40.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

PaulS said:


> Here's hoping your girlfriend doesn't shoot you. The 40 S&W is ballistically identical to the 45ACP. That is, it's easy to control recoil and its terminal ballistics are so close you couldn't tell them apart. They shoot the same weight bullets at nearly identical velocities and with the same bullet construction the same weight and construction bullet in 40 will penetrate just a touch further than the 45. Both were designed to stop a man. Not necessarily kill him DRT but to stop him so you have time for the next shot if necessary.
> 
> Other than the fact that they are used in semi-autos they are great rounds.


Paul, they do make revolvers in .40  I haven't had the pleasure of shooting one but it would seem that it would make a nifty back up to the .40 semi-auto crowds.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

I read a report somewhere that looked at 17 years worth of data from actual gunfights.

The .45 ACP stopped the person with 1 round 93% of the time.

The .40 S&W stopped them with one round 96% of the time.

I found this to be a little surprising until I thought about it. With so many police departments using the .40, I'm guessing this was mostly a matter of training: ie, shot placement.

Many have dismissed this report and questioned the data itself. As I remember, there were a few "impossible" results like a few rounds being 120% effective and so on, but these were probably just typos. I wouldn't dismiss the entire study over a few errors. I can't remember where I saw it, but if you are interested, I'm sure a few minutes on a search engine would turn it up.

Bottome line... both the .40 and .45 will do the job.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Read the current issue of American Handgunner. There is an article about handgun defensive cartridges. Read the chart. Even the 25 Auto has what appears to be a decent "one round stop." That is defined as the person who is shot takes no further aggressive action. The last column of the chart is the percentage that does not stop aggressive action regardless of rounds absorbed. THAT is the column that counts.
The 357 magnum is still the handgun round that all others strive to be, even after 78 years of existance.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

Prepadoodle said:


> I read a report somewhere that looked at 17 years worth of data from actual gunfights.
> 
> The .45 ACP stopped the person with 1 round 93% of the time.
> 
> ...


The 10mm is supposed to be the ultimate man stopper and it is safe to think of this round as a .40 magnum. On the job I have loaded in my firearm 155 grain federal that is supposed to have the same stats as a 10mm. They are rough on a firearm and is why the agency switched to 180 grain.


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## BigCheeseStick (Aug 7, 2013)

I'll bet your spot on about .357's and such if the "bad guy" is willing to ride with you out to the middle of a field and let you pop rounds off at him. Or if you ask nicely enough maybe he'll wait for you to dig in a pocket and get out some good ear plugs before the two of you go at it. My point is a 80 pound cannon ball is_ pretty effective_ ballisticly for stopping humans. What good is it if you fire off ONE shot and _take yourself_ completely out of any fight because your now laying on the ground crying like a little girl because you just blew your ear drums out?

Magnums or carbine length rifles = possibly the worst possible choice for CCW, home defense, or just plain protection in general. Even with a .25ACP you mention, at least you can stay in the fight and not hospitalize yourself for your efforts.

Also worth considering I hope, anybody in the house is going to be just as deaf and damaged as you. So don't count on your now stone deaf wife and kids for any help getting to the hospital or being able to call 911.

Ever see the muzzle flash off a magnum pistol or carbine rifle at night? If there are two bad guys and one wasn't in the house when you deafened yourself. Your now night blind to. And he won't be. Hopefully he doesn't decide to rape you before he kills you.

Sorry to be blunt, but if it possibly saves your and your family's lives one day...


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

I'm pretty much at home (comfortable) with all calibers and after praying at the alter of statistics graphs and charts I've come to the conclusion that statistics are basically useless for my needs or applications. 

However statistics are useful for supporting or illustrating a point of view or a performance feature. Yet when faced with the prospect of dealing with an armed encounter one is better served looking elsewhere for the answers. 

It is no surprise that the 45ACP is synonymous with 1911, since they were basically developed together. Neither should it be a surprise that all semi auto pistols and cartridges share a least one feature (usually more) in common with the 1911 and the 45 ACP.

The question is? Why buy a pistol that is adapted to a caliber it was not originally designed to shoot. I would agree that some pistol designs are better at adaptation to another caliber while other designs not so much and some designs not at all. 

With the wealth of good designs available one would think it might be prudent to determine the highest power of cartridge they can shoot accurately in a defensive situation and then find a suitable pistol designed around that caliber.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Meangreen said:


> Paul, they do make revolvers in .40  I haven't had the pleasure of shooting one but it would seem that it would make a nifty back up to the .40 semi-auto crowds.


Meangreen.
I designed a 40 /10mm revolver cartridge yeas ago but never got the time to make one. Based on the 30-30 case cut down to 1.3" and straightened to a straight wall case. I did make up some cartridges and it looked like a good round looking for an application. It actually fit between the 41 magnum (that is practically unheard of) and the 44 magnum. It would never be a "marketable" cartridge as it would require a large frame revolver and a lot of powder to provide the pressures needed (45000 - 50000 psi). I have my 357 and I am comfortable and proficient with it. It doesn't blind you in low light conditions and the muzzle blast won't deafen you when fired indoors. (I have survived both)


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

BigCheeseStick said:


> I'll bet your spot on about .357's and such if the "bad guy" is willing to ride with you out to the middle of a field and let you pop rounds off at him. Or if you ask nicely enough maybe he'll wait for you to dig in a pocket and get out some good ear plugs before the two of you go at it. My point is a 80 pound cannon ball is_ pretty effective_ ballisticly for stopping humans. What good is it if you fire off ONE shot and _take yourself_ completely out of any fight because your now laying on the ground crying like a little girl because you just blew your ear drums out?
> 
> Magnums or carbine length rifles = possibly the worst possible choice for CCW, home defense, or just plain protection in general. Even with a .25ACP you mention, at least you can stay in the fight and not hospitalize yourself for your efforts.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, sir, you have no idea my qualifications or what I have already been exposed to. And I ain't talking about the Boy Scouts, junior.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

PaulS said:


> Meangreen.
> I designed a 40 /10mm revolver cartridge yeas ago but never got the time to make one. Based on the 30-30 case cut down to 1.3" and straightened to a straight wall case. I did make up some cartridges and it looked like a good round looking for an application. It actually fit between the 41 magnum (that is practically unheard of) and the 44 magnum. It would never be a "marketable" cartridge as it would require a large frame revolver and a lot of powder to provide the pressures needed (45000 - 50000 psi). I have my 357 and I am comfortable and proficient with it. It doesn't blind you in low light conditions and the muzzle blast won't deafen you when fired indoors. (I have survived both)


Sounds like you were on to something! You should try .40 Federal 155 grain jacketed hollow point in the silver box, it was made for the Border Patrol and it is night fire friendly with a blue flame instead of bright yellow. It's performance was more like a 10mm than a .40 and was the duty ammo for long time until we switched 180 grain.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Thanks, but I will stick with what I know. My 357 is up to any task I could ask of it and if they are too far away for that and still a threat then I have a couple of rifles that will do the job out a bit farther.


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## Sr40ken (Nov 21, 2012)

BigCheeseStick said:


> I'll bet your spot on about .357's and such if the "bad guy" is willing to ride with you out to the middle of a field and let you pop rounds off at him. Or if you ask nicely enough maybe he'll wait for you to dig in a pocket and get out some good ear plugs before the two of you go at it. My point is a 80 pound cannon ball is_ pretty effective_ ballisticly for stopping humans. What good is it if you fire off ONE shot and _take yourself_ completely out of any fight because your now laying on the ground crying like a little girl because you just blew your ear drums out?
> 
> Magnums or carbine length rifles = possibly the worst possible choice for CCW, home defense, or just plain protection in general. Even with a .25ACP you mention, at least you can stay in the fight and not hospitalize yourself for your efforts.
> 
> ...


Actually my wife and I tried out our .357 Magnum, hot loaded .40 S&w and .45ACP. and Mini 14 in an enclosed room in a barn at night at our family farm. The night blindness thing is highly over rated. We could easily pull back on target with no handicap. As far as sound a .357 outdoors with no ear protection will make you deaf for a while as well as many short barrels guns with far less power.


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## Sr40ken (Nov 21, 2012)

Back on point, if it's a1911 it's a1911. they've been trying different rounds in the 1911 since it's creation. I doubt they will stop anytime soon. I would love to have one in 10mm. But my wife says "If it isn't black and in .45 it ain't a 1911" Guess she knows, she carries one and is quite proficient with hers(officers model)!LOL


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