# No living off grid



## Smitty901

At least in Cape Coral, FL.. the judge has ruled . Expect to see more of this.

Court Rules That ?Living Off The Grid? Is Now Illegal | Truth And Action


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## SARGE7402

Sure believe what the "victim" says. Just like hands up don't shoot. First it would behoove you to go to the City's actual web page and see just what their building code says. And It does allow for solar mechanical systems, stand alone water and sewer systems and I didn't get far enough to see just what the electrical requirements are. My guess is that Blondie doesn't want to comply with any building code standards and wants to live in a shack with water draining off her roof and shitting in a pail..


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## SARGE7402

Building Codes


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## Smitty901

Building codes are often meant as another means of control. They require large amounts of square feet to keep moderate income people out in some areas. The required many things that may no longer be necessary. Things like this are being used all over to keep people from living off grid .
They used them near here to require people with wells to hook up and pay of city water. Then two years latter required all private well be shut down and cemented shut.
They are also used as a way to drive up building cost and enrich contractors.


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## SARGE7402

It's really too bad you don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps if you were in the business instead of relying on what some half baked wanna be news outlet says.

You really didn't take the time to even see what the code said did you? Just like a lot on this site. Talks thru their hat and hasn't a clue what really has taken place.

And your signature is a bit interesting. There is no such thing as an innocent man. Every one is guilty of something. Most just haven't been caught yet.

But hey keep trying


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## ekim

Don't you just love how liberals spin crap to make people guilty of thinking they don't have certain rights to live as free citizens.


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## 1skrewsloose

Are they going to go after folks who live in the wild on how ever many acres, and say they have to be on the grid too!!?? This is beyond stupid on so many levels!!


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## SARGE7402

ekim said:


> Don't you just love how liberals spin crap to make people guilty of thinking they don't have certain rights to live as free citizens.


First I'm no liberal. Second if you want to live in a community you need to abide by their agreed to laws, regulations - just like in an HOA. Don't agree with them don't move in. You move in you tacitly agree to follow them. Don't and see what happens.

What I was trying to show was that the story has a bogus factor to it. But rather than read what the city codes say, you just paint those of us that don't agree with your warped view of life as - liberals, Nazi's, storm troopers,

Just proves my point that a lot of you here bring nothing to the table


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## SARGE7402

1skrewsloose said:


> Are they going to go after folks who live in the wild on how ever many acres, and say they have to be on the grid too!!?? This is beyond stupid on so many levels!!


Screw every community large or small has a set of rules that they want folks to abide by if they live in that community.

Do you think you should be allowed to dump raw untreated crap on your front lawn?

Probably not. Why cause it would most likely end up hurting you or your loved ones.


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## 1skrewsloose

What if where you chose to live, there is no grid? Sue them to provide you with one! This is so insane, God help this country!!!


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## 1skrewsloose

Farm animals, and wildlife can crap wherever they please, but humans cannot??!! Those creatures are exposed to the same if not more bad stuff than us. Let's just ban all wildlife, and fish too! They eat and crap in the same place. Somehow my dander just got up!!


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## Ralph Rotten

She may be dumping waste into a septic system that could plllute an existing city wellhead.


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## 1skrewsloose

In a rural area or wherever, where does the animal fecal matter go? Get my drift. Only thing is, animals can't pay taxes and fees.


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## Smitty901

When the rules are fair an just based on true need for them yes. But most so called codes are not. They are designed to funnel cash to some groups. And specialize means of keeping some out and some in.
City near hear you do work and it passes inspection for the code you still have to pay a contractor. many can live in a 900 square foot home and live very well. 5 miles from where I sit code requires 2500 square feet and 3 acres of land that put the cost out of manys reach and that was the plan.
Milwaukee a big building went with waterless toilets cool idea . Nope Code required the company to pay plumbers that never worked there as if they had done all the pluming. And the inspector was paid also even though he inspected nothing.
Code can and often is a code. I do deal with inspectors on code issue most with land use near so called protected areas . I know how the scams work, amazing what a few fees will do for that.


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## 1skrewsloose

That just ain't right!


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## Chipper

Local honey wagon owner charges me $100 to pump my system. As required by County. Yes I have to send the paper work in to County. Have to show/prove that my system is being maintained. Sewer truck drives across the street and dumps it on my neighbors farm field. WTF??? So how does this save the environment??


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## Jakthesoldier

I'm Kind of amazed after reading the comments here. My family ranch is in California. And of all the liberal backwards places, we have off grid septic systems with leech lines, off grid well with privately (family) maintained water treatment facility, and our own hydroelectric plant. We are hooked up to grid electricity, but for two reasons. One, we sell excess electricity to the power companies, and two, it means they have to come fix our electrical lines if they go down.


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## Smitty901

Chipper said:


> Local honey wagon owner charges me $100 to pump my system. As required by County. Yes I have to send the paper work in to County. Have to show/prove that my system is being maintained. Sewer truck drives across the street and dumps it on my neighbors farm field. WTF??? So how does this save the environment??


 In many areas of Wisconsin we had septic systems that worked just fine for 50-60 years. The state came along and by code required their pump systems. They also require you to pump them every 3 years at a hefty price. Why so hefty? well they know you are Required to do it. These new systems fail often and cost $1000's to repair.
Why because of all the paper work and you have to have one of the anointed replace the pump. Mean while the few 60 year old gravity systems that are still around are still working just fine.
It was the septic companies and the DNR that pushed for this they worked together to force it. Why they raked in the cash.


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## Ripon

Living off grid is fine for where I live and my local govt encourages it. Now at my home in CA .. Located in a city it's BS to think my neighbor can crap in a bucket and dump her crap six feet from my house. I don't understand how you guys think living in a city means rules aren't necessary and shouldn't apply to people. I see this often when people buy a condo in an HOA and then can't live by the very rules they agreed to when buying in. A city has to provide sewer, water, power, storm drainage and if you elect not to take it you best prove its not impacting the person next door. That is why there are codes. Don't like it fine....live where I do.


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## Jakthesoldier

Ripon said:


> Living off grid is fine for where I live and my local govt encourages it. Now at my home in CA .. Located in a city it's BS to think my neighbor can crap in a bucket and dump her crap six feet from my house. I don't understand how you guys think living in a city means rules aren't necessary and shouldn't apply to people. I see this often when people buy a condo in an HOA and then can't live by the very rules they agreed to when buying in. A city has to provide sewer, water, power, storm drainage and if you elect not to take it you best prove its not impacting the person next door. That is why there are codes. Don't like it fine....live where I do.


Good point. There is a point where population density dictates public safety exceeds personal preference. If you don't want to live on the grid, go somewhere the grid isnt. There are plenty of places that aren't, of all types of terrain and climate.


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## William Warren

SARGE7402 said:


> My guess is that Blondie doesn't want to comply with any building code standards and wants to live in a shack with water draining off her roof and shitting in a pail..


You're getting a bit overheated with your guessing. If someone chooses to live as if she was in the 19th century, that's her business, right up until it hurts my family.

There's an old saying that will put this in a better perspective. *"The government's job is to protect you from your neighbor's folly, not your own."* If someone chooses an 1850 lifestyle, then she also chooses what comes with it: risk of insect, food, and water-borne illness, risk of food poisoning and reptile poisoning, and lack of modern conveniences such as tampons, deodorant, and microwave ovens. That's still her choice.

The problem, though, is that the average citizen is so used to the high standard of public sanitation we have in this country that (s)he is literally unable to comprehend that such a lifestyle can pose risks to others. For most of this country's history, outdoor plumbing was the expected norm in all but a few major cities. In fact, many outhouses were built over streams, thus sparing their owners the tiresome chore of gathering up the effluent and properly disposing of it. The sad fact was that the early settlers of this country came from places where streams and rivers were little better than open sewers, and they took it for granted that the new world's water would be as dangerous to drink as that of the old. They expected that they would have to drink beer instead - it was a sort of "light" beer with just enough alcohol in it to sterilize the water - and that open waterways would be used for sanitation, just like the old world.

It wasn't until roughly the Victorian Era in England, when the ruling classes of europe realized that public health was, at it's heart, public sewers and clean water, that the word started to spread, and American leaders started to encourage our citizens to do without open-air toilets and questionable water.

But this is, and has always been, a nation rooted in farming (no pun intended), so many municipalities found themselves facing opposition from rural voters, who felt that the half-moon haven was good enough and that the well their grandfather dug couldn't be questioned. If it was only an issue for farmer Jones, that would have been the end of it: but farmer Jones' toilet was dripping into the stream that fed farmer Wright's cows, and farmer Smith's well, and that is the point where a government has a duty to get involved.

So long as the woman in question is meeting the minimum standards of public sanitation - and they really are very minimal - she is entitled to do without public water and public sewers. I've done without them at various places I've lived, and I'm none the worse for it - but the well was uphill from the outhouse, and they were separated by at least 100 yards, as the code required, and the privy bordered on the pig pen instead of the stream.

People are funny: they'll take anything that makes sense, _as long as everybody else has to take it too_. That means local governments sometimes choose to demand that "everyone" hook up to the municipal water supply or the public sewerage system, so that none of the citizenry starts complaining about exceptions to the rules.

William Warren


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## oddapple

Good one -


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## Will2

I'm actually due to be reconnected to the Grid in a few days, and this is good news for me. Sure I can run my computer and internet in all my waking hours from my offgrid system but it has its drawbacks. 

Bylaws and building code are something that one needs to be mindful of whether it is for furnaces, electrical, or drainage. I can't simply back feed into my system the easiest way by connecting my terminal post to my inverter, I can't even simply connect my offgrid system the grid system, the two need to be seperate systems effectively my solar, wind and propane systems are backups. I have never run my wind, and would only do so if I needed eletricity for critical purposes such as powering a transmitter, or where there was a problem getting sunlight for an extended period of time. Same for the propane, it is an emergency system, where solar is not available, or my batteries have frozen.

Being on grid eats away at potential offgrid resource, every two months on grid is one deep cycle battery, so each year online is 4 years offline eaten up. However the thing about being online is having way more amperage, and being covered if there is bad weather. It also isn't enough for emergency heat in cold weather but the grid is with electric heating sources. In more southerly climates I would be laughing with just an offgrid setup, but in cold freezing Canada, it is more difficult to run a year round setup unless you have stable secondary heating sources to insure your batteries never freeze. 

I don't see going back onthegrid to be a cop out, I could continue for the next month or so with just this, without using electricity, without hot water, it is easy in the summer, it is a lack of luxury. 

Same with sewage and plumbing, it is not as easy a life unless you can dig a well. You can't flush into municipal sewage legally if you don't pay for their system. That i n itself is $120/month flatrate. Funny thing is human pee and poo work fine as fertalizer. 

Bottom line is, you need to move to a "prepper friendly" community. You need to gain a critical mass in your community so that you are allowed to own some chickens or a goat, or humanure done properly is just fine, or that you can power stuff with a solar panel. 

It is all about local critical mass.


It has me wonder, how many homes have 12v wiring in their homes, and have bought 12v appliances and removed their power adapters that take 120v and downstep it to 12v. You know who buys computers because their input voltate is 12v from the power supply. There are lots of energy efficiencies but for the masses it is about convienence. Until effeciancy and convienence meet up, the masses will side with the way that requires them to do the least.

Ok for the RV but not the house, lots of energy right, no shortage.


The sad part is that I am only likely to get two months on grid before I am gone for 4 to 8 months and I spent over 300$ to get back on grid cause you need to get inspected before they will hook you up. The inspections for all the stuff is costly. Of course if Greece collapses, and ukraine turns into WWIII I will have a backup available.


Ongrid is more versatile, I can barely even run a toaster with my offgrid setup let alone a stove or microwave.

The hellenes may not see Hades arrive tommorow but if he does show up I will have electricity for a bit.

In an emergency anything goes to prevent loss of life or property. If the gov cant insure your life you need to. No one is going to save you but you.

Watch Greece on Monday, if it is marial law you will see, that the government institutes martial law to save itself, not to save you.


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## sparkyprep

SARGE7402 said:


> It's really too bad you don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps if you were in the business instead of relying on what some half baked wanna be news outlet says.
> 
> You really didn't take the time to even see what the code said did you? Just like a lot on this site. Talks thru their hat and hasn't a clue what really has taken place.
> 
> And your signature is a bit interesting. There is no such thing as an innocent man. Every one is guilty of something. Most just haven't been caught yet.
> 
> But hey keep trying


Spoken just like a jack-booted thug.


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## Seneca

Some HOA's are so involved that they basically pick the color you paint your house, pick the trees and shrubs you plant, the type of fencing you can have and whether or not you can leave a vehicle in the driveway overnight. 

While matters of public safety should always be a concern for HOA's, they can become a hot bed for petty tyrants.


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## SARGE7402

sparkyprep said:


> Spoken just like a jack-booted thug.


Again. I complain that someone hasn't read the city's ordinances and I'm branded a jackbooted thug.

Don't want to live with a city/county/state's regulations have at it . Want to live with the rest of the community they you live by their rules. In this case it appears that Blondie didn't even want to try abiding by the rules - that allow for both solar and separate stand alone water and sewer systems.

If that makes me a jack booted thug well then so be it.

And while an adult may want to live sitting in their own stinking mess, children - under the age of 16 - don't have that luxury of making a choice. They're stuck with what their dip sh - - parents dream up. One duty of society is to protect those that can't protect themselves. So if that means you can't dump you poop on the front lawn, or use it to fertilize your garden, suck it up and get with the program.


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## MisterMills357

I think that she could build a concrete block outhouse. That might be out of code, but that is winnable too. 
But, you do have to fight the fight. Otherwise, you lose by default.


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## sparkyprep

SARGE7402 said:


> Again. I complain that someone hasn't read the city's ordinances and I'm branded a jackbooted thug.
> 
> Don't want to live with a city/county/state's regulations have at it . Want to live with the rest of the community they you live by their rules. In this case it appears that Blondie didn't even want to try abiding by the rules - that allow for both solar and separate stand alone water and sewer systems.
> 
> If that makes me a jack booted thug well then so be it.
> 
> And while an adult may want to live sitting in their own stinking mess, children - under the age of 16 - don't have that luxury of making a choice. They're stuck with what their dip sh - - parents dream up. One duty of society is to protect those that can't protect themselves. So if that means you can't dump you poop on the front lawn, or use it to fertilize your garden, suck it up and get with the program.


What makes you brain-washed, jack booted thug is the statement "There is no such thing as an innocent man. Everyone is guilty of something. Most just haven't been caught yet." Did that statement, and mentality, come strait from your police training? They really pushed the whole "us versus them" thought process on you, didn't they? Let me let you in on a little secret, it is NOT "us versus them". You are supposed to be one of "us".

That statement made me loose all respect for you, your opinions, and so-called authority as a law enforcement officer. That signature is RIGHT ON THE [email protected](&ing MONEY. Do everyone a favor, forget the Constitution that _you swore to uphold_, move to North Korea, and stop filling the internet with your filthy presence. North Korea would love to have an enforcer with your mentality.


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## William Warren

Will2 said:


> Funny thing is human pee and poo work fine as fertilizer.


Please don't try to do that. Human waste, and waste from dogs and cats, is *very dangerous* to use for fertilizing anything that humans will eat. You could use it to grow flowers, but not food, and even then extraordinary precautions are needed. _Trust me on this: find out what the risks are before you even think of using human, dog, or cat waste for fertilizer._

William Warren


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## Arklatex

Will2 said:


> I'm actually due to be reconnected to the Grid in a few days, and this is good news for me. Sure I can run my computer and internet in all my waking hours from my offgrid system but it has its drawbacks.
> 
> Bylaws and building code are something that one needs to be mindful of whether it is for furnaces, electrical, or drainage. I can't simply back feed into my system the easiest way by connecting my terminal post to my inverter, I can't even simply connect my offgrid system the grid system, the two need to be seperate systems effectively my solar, wind and propane systems are backups. I have never run my wind, and would only do so if I needed eletricity for critical purposes such as powering a transmitter, or where there was a problem getting sunlight for an extended period of time. Same for the propane, it is an emergency system, where solar is not available, or my batteries have frozen.
> 
> Being on grid eats away at potential offgrid resource, every two months on grid is one deep cycle battery, so each year online is 4 years offline eaten up. However the thing about being online is having way more amperage, and being covered if there is bad weather. It also isn't enough for emergency heat in cold weather but the grid is with electric heating sources. In more southerly climates I would be laughing with just an offgrid setup, but in cold freezing Canada, it is more difficult to run a year round setup unless you have stable secondary heating sources to insure your batteries never freeze.
> 
> I don't see going back onthegrid to be a cop out, I could continue for the next month or so with just this, without using electricity, without hot water, it is easy in the summer, it is a lack of luxury.
> 
> Same with sewage and plumbing, it is not as easy a life unless you can dig a well. You can't flush into municipal sewage legally if you don't pay for their system. That i n itself is $120/month flatrate. Funny thing is human pee and poo work fine as fertalizer.
> 
> Bottom line is, you need to move to a "prepper friendly" community. You need to gain a critical mass in your community so that you are allowed to own some chickens or a goat, or humanure done properly is just fine, or that you can power stuff with a solar panel.
> 
> It is all about local critical mass.
> 
> It has me wonder, how many homes have 12v wiring in their homes, and have bought 12v appliances and removed their power adapters that take 120v and downstep it to 12v. You know who buys computers because their input voltate is 12v from the power supply. There are lots of energy efficiencies but for the masses it is about convienence. Until effeciancy and convienence meet up, the masses will side with the way that requires them to do the least.
> 
> Ok for the RV but not the house, lots of energy right, no shortage.
> 
> The sad part is that I am only likely to get two months on grid before I am gone for 4 to 8 months and I spent over 300$ to get back on grid cause you need to get inspected before they will hook you up. The inspections for all the stuff is costly. Of course if Greece collapses, and ukraine turns into WWIII I will have a backup available.
> 
> Ongrid is more versatile, I can barely even run a toaster with my offgrid setup let alone a stove or microwave.
> 
> The hellenes may not see Hades arrive tommorow but if he does show up I will have electricity for a bit.
> 
> In an emergency anything goes to prevent loss of life or property. If the gov cant insure your life you need to. No one is going to save you but you.
> 
> Watch Greece on Monday, if it is marial law you will see, that the government institutes martial law to save itself, not to save you.


Good luck with all that...

Bad idea to use meat eater poop as a fertilizer in my opinion.


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## William Warren

Will2 said:


> Same with sewage and plumbing, it is not as easy a life unless you can dig a well. You can't flush into municipal sewage legally if you don't pay for their system. That i n itself is $120/month flatrate.


That's an important part of the problem: most municipalities prefer to charge for sewer taxes as a portion of the water bill, since it's so much easier to measure water use instead of sewer capacity used. That means that landowners who want municipal sewer hookups are sometimes forced to get municipal water hookups as well.

William Warren


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## William Warren

Seneca said:


> Some HOA's are so involved that they basically pick the color you paint your house, pick the trees and shrubs you plant, the type of fencing you can have and whether or not you can leave a vehicle in the driveway overnight.
> 
> While matters of public safety should always be a concern for HOA's, they can become a hot bed for petty tyrants.


I'm not happy about asking the government to interfere with a private contract, which is what folks do when they join an HOA or accept CC&R provisions on their deed.

However, I'm a ham operator, and there's a push right now to have the F.C.C. override CC&R or HOA agreements that prohibit ham antennas, because it turns out that some town and city governments have been making sweetheart deals with property developers and builders, to get restrictions onto deeds and into HOA agreements that are either illegal or unenforceable if they were put into law.

So, there is a "man behind the curtain" or a "1,000 lb gorilla" here: if a private contract is being used to keep certain ethnicities or people with certain income levels or those with unusual hobbies out of an area, then the courts or agencies such as the F.C.C. have a duty to act to restore balance.

William Warren


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## Denton

We have a good tendency to jump to the side of liberty here in our little on line community, and I think that is the perfect place to start when discussing these things. I wish the government would take the time to start from that position, too.

Having done so, I think there are certain social contracts that should be expected when living in close proximity of others, and I would think that using the water/sewage infrastructure should be one of them. Want an outhouse? Fine; move out into the country. Want to use only collected rain water? Great! Move out to the country. Else wise, where is the line to be drawn and who gets exceptions to the city ordinances? 

I look at some of my neighbors and am very glad there are city ordinances. While the woman in question may have her duckies in a row, my retarded neighbors can barely maintain minimum standard regarding property maintenance. What if they decided to just go off the grid so they could save some money that they'd rather spend on beer and cigarettes?

Denton is looking to move out into the country, and not just in case the poo is scattered by the fan. I find that, as a whole, people have lost all discipline and shun any sense of responsibility, even with city ordinances.


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## Will2

William Warren said:


> Please don't try to do that. Human waste, and waste from dogs and cats, is *very dangerous* to use for fertilizing anything that humans will eat. You could use it to grow flowers, but not food, and even then extraordinary precautions are needed. _Trust me on this: find out what the risks are before you even think of using human, dog, or cat waste for fertilizer._
> 
> William Warren


Sorry Mr Warren but I am not a retard.

I am a student of history with a solid foundation in the sciences. I have been researching permaculture for well over a decade, and I have a degree in history which includes the history of agriculture. I don't need you telling me human feces is unsafe to fertalize with. Its been done for thousands of years, it is done industrially today, and can be very safe, if not safer than animal manures.

It is safer than cow, goat or sheep dung, the stuff you are chowing down on most likely.

Educate yourself before regurgitating completely unfounded impressions of some retard taking a dump on their tomato plant as "humanure". Its not the same feces is not humanure. I clearly have taken offence at a blunted and uneducated response by yourself.


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## Will2

Denton said:


> We have a good tendency to jump to the side of liberty here in our little on line community, and I think that is the perfect place to start when discussing these things. I wish the government would take the time to start from that position, too.
> 
> Having done so, I think there are certain social contracts that should be expected when living in close proximity of others, and I would think that using the water/sewage infrastructure should be one of them. Want an outhouse? Fine; move out into the country. Want to use only collected rain water? Great! Move out to the country. Else wise, where is the line to be drawn and who gets exceptions to the city ordinances?
> 
> I look at some of my neighbors and am very glad there are city ordinances. While the woman in question may have her duckies in a row, my retarded neighbors can barely maintain minimum standard regarding property maintenance. What if they decided to just go off the grid so they could save some money that they'd rather spend on beer and cigarettes?
> 
> Denton is looking to move out into the country, and not just in case the poo is scattered by the fan. I find that, as a whole, people have lost all discipline and shun any sense of responsibility, even with city ordinances.


I wouldn't call this a"rural/urban" divide. I think it is more a matter of what your community finds acceptable. What risks they are willing to take.
For example the chickens rule. It is psychological. There are grandfathered chickens in one community I lived in, another rural community outlaws everything but dogs and cats. I think 99% of the issue is "smell" or "noise". These issues can be handled under noxious odour or noise bylaws, there is no need to restrict access to a pet that otherwise would not vioalte other bylaws. The same is "weed bylaws" tons of weeds are edible foodstalkthat has traditional uses for food aned medicine, but it is considered a nuisance because it is on a list. Those really ain't sane positions, they are cult. People should be able to set limits but having city councils decide this stuff is just bad design, it should be a public vote, there should be dialogue and there should be zoning interface to neighbourhoods. It makes sense you don't want cows running loose downtown but on the edge of town why not? The bylaws are often not representative of landowners, often it is rich elites who make the rules who don't understand the lower classes (or don't want the lowers to rise up and stop paying for their product) who would raise chickens instead of paying someone to get one from the country and prepare it for them. It is a class culture program.

There are limits but if it doesn't extend off the property it shouldn't matter.

One of my biggest pet peaves is "lawn mowers. I have to listen to one now, it is a constant nuisance. But the municipality forces people to mow their lawns. I have a human powered mower that makes almost no noise. I hate the fumes and noise, but it is a nuisance bylaw. If I don't cut my lawn I get edible plants that grow. It is insane. The point, it has nothing to do with reason or science, it is totally culturally based backed by politics. It is fancy. That is all this is. And that is why the woman who is taking good steps to make a better life is meeting with absurdity. They are culturally blinded, selfish, and corrupt.

Its the idea of what "city or town life" is suppose to be like. Its culture not science. Normal may slightly differ from place to place, but they are likely insane and totalitarian at some point. You just don't see it unless you arn't from there.


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## Awakened_Warrior

All the ego running around in here. 
Dang. The problem I see is you are all right, within context. 
I love you all, and reading the replies shows me how much I don't know about certain things. It also shows me that it is not safe to express my own opinion or questions without being flamed and called names. 
A bit pathetic from a group who is supposed to be helping each other make the most sense of things. There seems to be a lot less love floating around in here than hating. Isn't that the problem? We would rather be right than be happy. Proving a point is more important than understanding a point. Being heard is more important than listening. Being smart is more important than learning. 
All this unnecessary bickering makes it harder to learn, for those of us who already don't know everything about everything and have the Only Right Opinion. 
Pfft


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## oddapple

Yes, the dynamic does get a bit much sometimes.

For instance, even tho Asians grow in human s**t, I'd rather hear some thing about how it's supposedly composted to be so safe - because standing on a chair screeching about science isn't any practical argument and saying kitty virus is dangerous then eating off humans in a time of viral war seems to be a "democrat" position without further substantiation.

Also, just because you can isn't everything. Asians do many things other people find vile as it gets and frankly, they can drink paddy water.


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Denton said:


> We have a good tendency to jump to the side of liberty here in our little on line community, and I think that is the perfect place to start when discussing these things. I wish the government would take the time to start from that position, too.
> 
> Having done so, I think there are certain social contracts that should be expected when living in close proximity of others, and I would think that using the water/sewage infrastructure should be one of them. Want an outhouse? Fine; move out into the country. Want to use only collected rain water? Great! Move out to the country. Else wise, where is the line to be drawn and who gets exceptions to the city ordinances?


That's why we live in the country, and yes, you are dead right on this Denton.

One of the first things I found out about when I started looking for land years ago is where there were codes, and where there are not.

There are state codes in every state, and then there are municipal and county codes as well. Our BOL is in a county that only has state codes to apply to it, and they generally only apply to doing stuff that's within 75 feet of your property line (for example, no sewage lagoon within 75 feet of the edge of your property), and that's about it.

Drill a well? No problem. Catchment? No problem. Outhouse? No problem (again, it has to be at least 76 feet from the property line).

I know the Code Nazi's will freak out, but we can build our houses any damned way we like. We can build them wherever we like, however we like.

Code Nazi's can suck lemons.

Freedom baby! Y'all should try it!


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## Denton

You are inspiring me to look harder for land!


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## PaulS

Human solid waste can be turned harmless for food crops using mushroom mat and earth worms. The mushrooms grow well in it and they break toxins down to near zero. Eathworms eat it and the waste is a liquid fertilizer that is ideal for use one plants for consumption.


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## Awakened_Warrior

PaulS said:


> Human solid waste can be turned harmless for food crops using mushroom mat and earth worms. The mushrooms grow well in it and they break toxins down to near zero. Eathworms eat it and the waste is a liquid fertilizer that is ideal for use one plants for consumption.


I've seen some awesome stuff about mushrooms and how underrated they are. There was a TED talk with a guy who presented a case study where they used mushroom spores to treat a pile of kerosene soaked dirt. Within 6 weeks it was growing trees and all sorts of plants while the other 3 test dirt piles (conventionally treated) never produced life, let alone an ecosystem. 
I would like to get more hands on with mushroom spores and how beneficial they can be for my garden!


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## oddapple

Yeah thats a solid direction to look


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## PaulS

I know where you can get some mushroom mat... It's a little place on the Eastern side of Western Washington. The Cascade Mountains have the largest mat known in the USA. It covers most of the west side of the Cascade range.


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## Seneca

Denton said:


> You are inspiring me to look harder for land!


Having your own land? That's where I plan to be within the next two years. I lived in the country for 24 years and then recently had to move back into town. I loathe the ant pile lifestyle and am headed back into the country as soon as I can get squared away. I recently found an acre with a pond and artesian water, they really are asking to much for it and it I'm on the fence over making a lower offer.


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## topgun

Who will be the from the city chosen to put the Amish on the grid?

If they put the Amish on the grid, would they even notice it?


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## Slippy

:bs:

People,
You have no idea the amount of self discipline and personal restraint that I am exhibiting right now...(look back another page and you'll know what I'm talking about.)


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## Salt-N-Pepper

Slippy said:


> :bs:
> 
> People,
> You have no idea the amount of self discipline and personal restraint that I am exhibiting right now...(look back another page and you'll know what I'm talking about.)


Bring it on, sir... bring the pain....

"Cry 'Havoc!', and let Slippy the dogs of war"!


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## PaulS

Stay calm my friend. Anger only hurts the one who feels it. The object of your passion is not affected.

Just go out and mow the grass...


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## William Warren

Will2 said:


> Sorry Mr Warren but I am not a retard.


I never accused you of being retarded, yet you have a knee-jerk reaction to what I intended as common-sense advice. Why?



Will2 said:


> I am a student of history with a solid foundation in the sciences. I have been researching permaculture for well over a decade, and I have a degree in history which includes the history of agriculture. I don't need you telling me human feces is unsafe to fertalize with. Its been done for thousands of years, it is done industrially today, and can be very safe, if not safer than animal manures.


As a history laureate, you undoubtedly know that the first efforts at public sanitation were done in the age of kings: men and women whom actually ruled their countries, rather than occupying ceremonial positions as most do today. Those monarchs decreed that public sewers would be built, and public wells inspected, so as to prevent the spread of diseases such as cholera. Why would royalty go so far out of their way to improve the public health, unless it were so serious a problem as to threaten their kingdoms and their future?



Will2 said:


> It is safer than cow, goat or sheep dung, the stuff you are chowing down on most likely.
> 
> Educate yourself before regurgitating completely unfounded impressions of some retard taking a dump on their tomato plant as "humanure". Its not the same feces is not humanure. I clearly have taken offence at a blunted and uneducated response by yourself.


I've seen it written that "Being quick to take offence has caused more wars than anything else". Your umbrage is misplaced, sir, and misinformed.

I am not a farmer, but I am an experienced gardner, and I did "Hot" compost for years in order to maximize my yields. I've never claimed to be some sort of expert in biology or waste processing, although I did attend lectures given by the Public Health Service. Their advice was simple and direct: don't use human, dog, or cat waste in compost. I don't have any reason to assume that they were lying to me.

Information is not hard to come by:

Wikipedia:

The use of unprocessed human feces as fertilizer is a risky practice as it may contain disease-causing pathogens. Nevertheless, in developing nations it is widespread. Common parasitic worm infections, such as ascariasis, in these countries are linked to night soil, because their eggs are in feces.​
Public Radio International (From a story about the use of treated human waste in India):

The problem, of course, is safety. Along with all those valuable nutrients are a lot of nasty microbes and parasites that can make people sick and even kill them. That's the main reason it fell out of favor over the years.​
A study from the University of Georgia: "Risk Of Illness Increases With Use Of Sewage Sludge As Fertilizer"

Burning eyes, burning lungs, skin rashes and other symptoms of illness have been found in a study of residents living near land fertilized with Class B biosolids, a byproduct of the human waste treatment process.​
A case study by Erle Ellis, called "Using Human Manure ("nightsoil") in the Tai Lake Region of China":

There have always been health risks associated with nightsoil use (Richardson, 1950). One traditional adaptation to this risk is the near total avoidance of raw foods in China.​
... and the sources cited above required only a fifteen minute Google search/copy/paste effort.

I'll cut to the chase: this is a forum about survival preparedness, and in that light, I posted a stern warning which echoed what Public Health Service officers had told me and the others who attended those classes. It is, after all, unlikely that ordinary preppers would have access to the processing facilities needed to employ human feces as biosolid fertilizer (and one of the reports cited mentions danger from using feces which had been processed). I didn't say it can't be done, but I did ask that readers find out about the risks involved before they attempt it.

For your part, I can only say "No offense", and leave it at that. YMMV.

William Warren


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## Will2

William Warren said:


> I never accused you of being retarded, yet you have a knee-jerk reaction to what I intended as common-sense advice. Why?


 You took a position of superior knowledge, while the "imperative" you offered was based on misinformation. Clearly you would be calling me a retard if you expected me to support your order not to use human waste in agriculture.



> As a history laureate, you undoubtedly know that the first efforts at public sanitation were done in the age of kings: men and women whom actually ruled their countries, rather than occupying ceremonial positions as most do today. Those monarchs decreed that public sewers would be built, and public wells inspected, so as to prevent the spread of diseases such as cholera. Why would royalty go so far out of their way to improve the public health, unless it were so serious a problem as to threaten their kingdoms and their future?


And you should realize this has nothing to do with use of human waste as a fertalizer. You are equating sanitation as not existing with human waste in an agricultural process on the contrary the opposite is true, common sanitation and agricultural practices using cow, sheep and goat dung, as well as urban sanitation are not santiary they dump waste into the enviornment, and those discharges represent a risk to health and safety of humans. Meanwhile a personal household composting toilet or humanure oven do not damage the environment and instead present a more sanitary environment, that actually improves human health and safety and empower individuals to have a more secure food source. You are again painting a false imapge that humanure = unsanitary, and that is a blatant false statement and you are intentionally misleading people or grossly misinformed. Educate yourself before giving imperatives because it is rude and ingorant conduct that is offensive.

Don't give imperatives if you don't expect to be seen as offensive. Humanure is cultured human waste.

Don't tell people what to do refer them to authorities if you don't actually know what you are talking about. Your rhetoric of saying a that human waste and sanitation can only safely be done one way is BS. On the contrary urban sewage systems have been unsanitary, I nearly died from urban sanitation sewage discharges, yet my humanure practices hasn't hurt me once.

Here is an example of a much better US government agency to educate yourself on one way of sanitary process in use of humane wastes.

http://water.epa.gov/aboutow/owm/upload/2005_07_14_comp.pdf

Keeping fecal coliform levels down is one of the main measures of safety of using materials containing human waste product.

Here is another point to educate yourself with
http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/Composting_Solid_Manure

Also your "age of kings" comments is complete rubbish for an educated person, early sanitation dates back to Sumer in terms of recorded history, but the methods and effectiveness of those measures throughout history have not all been good occurences. While sanitation is all good, sanitation and use of human waste in agriculture can go hand in hand, as opposed to environmental pollution and endangerment of human health and safety that occurs in most urban and rural sanitation systems that do not have whole systems and create a greater danger on the public in the event of failure than do human waste composting systems. Human waste is fertalizer as are other animal wastes. Any avoidance of this fact is intentional deciet or gross ingorance and will not be accepted as an informed position.


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