# Is this company's solar packages priced well?



## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Delete 

I made an overly complicated post, the post can be so much simpler after I call the company, sorry, you can delete moderator and I'll make a simpler thread after I call them


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Ok I'm back, quite simply I was just wondering if the following off grid solar system complete package is reasonably priced, or if it's priced extremely well, or if the price is a terrible rip off? The delay was because prices aren't listed you have to contact them. The price for this is $12,500...

Sentinal True Sine Wave 2340 watt - GenPro Energy Solutions.

Also please keep in mind when you judge the price that this is a turn key ready to go out of the box unit for those with no skills, so please don't judge the price through the lens of your do it yourself skills but thru the lens of a novice dead set on paying for everything done for him. Thanks.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

First question... is this the only game in town, I assume they just send you the parts and you install?

They state: _*"roof mount racking for 4 panels" *_

What are you supposed to do with the other 8 panels?

Is this truly off grid, if not are any rebates available, and you still get 30% off your Fed Taxes if you can do that.

I didn't run the numbers on the battery bank, but have you done your needed load calculations to see if this system will meet your needs, 2.3 KW isn't much.

Rancher


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

No not at all they are not the only game in town, and yes they would just send parts and not be involved in the installation (not because they don't do installations they do, but because they're too far away).

I just would want solar power for the new garage that I plan to build, ok maybe I can refer to the garage as a prepper asset in case of prolonged power lose, but in truth the main reason is as a fun man cave setup, meaning if it's under sized that's cool. I was just trying to get a feel for this company's prices, IF i wanted a larger system then maybe I would go larger, but just knowing if this one is reasonably priced would give me the confidence that all their sizes are most likely also reasonably priced. 

I'm definitely at square 1, I haven't even reached the research phase of tax credits, I'm just playing around with ideas. Truth be told I'm not even sold on solar, I like enclosed diesel units a lot (but then there's paying for diesel, but I actually lean towards diesel). 

But here's what I'm not telling you, I choose this company to single out because I bought a really nice high quality product from them that's totally unrelated to solar power. So it has been peaking my curiosity to see if their solar prices are fair, just to gauge as a clue to whether or not the item I bought from them was fairly priced or not. I figure if they're reasonably priced in one product line they're probably not ripping people off in another...and if they're ripping people off on their solar prices then their prices probably also suck for what I bought! So this pricing question is a kill 2 birds with 1 stone question, I want to guage the company's pricing practices in general, and i am also interested in getting a better feel for PROPER price ranges for solar anyway! 2 birds 1 stone lol.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Probably uses this charge controller https://www.solar-electric.com/schneider-electric-sw-conext-inverter-2524-120.html which is a high quality unit. I'd like to know more about the battery model and if it is using a 150 classic or a 150 classic lite controller. Without a control panel you'd really want to avoid the classic lite and if possible add a good battery monitor, especially with those AGMs.

Also more info on the panels would be useful. Are they top of the line SW panels or bottom of the bucket Chinese panels?


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

In my area of AZ Grid Tie solar is very popular. Some people love it and are able to pay the solar lease + meter 
charge and pay a total of 50% of what they used to pay and a few even get money back from the electric 
supplier. I though about going with it until I found out that most companies run 480VDC instead of the usual 
12, 24 or 48 VDC we are used to seeing (cheaper to wire). Been thinking of buying my own grid tie system 
but it would be 24 or 48 VDC. This would allow me to connect up a solar controller specifically for charging 
batteries for an inverter to use if SHTF. Too bad it would cost a fortune for a system to run my AC. 
Please keep us posted on what you do and costs. Thanks.


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## Michael_Js (Dec 4, 2013)

Yes, I'm interested in the info also. been trying to research how to charge an EV with solar. Doesn't make sense, to me, to have an electrical vehicle and then charge it off the regular power.

John Galt, good inverter! I've read you want Idle power to be less than 30W and have not seen any inverters at that level, until the 1 you posted.

Most companies, like Renogy, say it can't be done. But I've seen systems that do it - except thy're like $14K!!

Peace,
Michael J.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> So this pricing question is a kill 2 birds with 1 stone question, I want to guage the company's pricing practices in general, and i am also interested in getting a better feel for PROPER price ranges for solar anyway! 2 birds 1 stone lol.


It's hard to compare my system which is not off grid, but grid tie but here goes.
Ignoring the wattage of the panels, just the total amount which they can produce, my system cost $2.3K, per KW, installed, with a microinverter on each panel $120.00 each, before tax rebates and power company incentives.
Your system costs $5.34K per KW, not installed.

4 each MK 8A8DLTP-DEKA 12V 245Ah AGM Cost around $590 each, so $2,360
1 each Schneider Electric 81-2530-12 2500W Inverter $1,320
1 panel $500 plus some wires

So what you are buying that I didn't have to install costs $4,180, my 35 microinverters cost $4200, so that's pretty much a wash.

So, $12,500 - $4180 = $8,320 Call it an even $8K, so for 12 panels you are paying $666.00 each, $3.41 per Watt.

I would recommend you go to: Northern AZ Wind and Sun

*Rancher*


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Thanks guys, it sounds like a combination of there not being enough details to know for sure, and it not being all that great of a deal. So are being grid tied and being off grid with a battery bank mutually exclusive? Do you have to grid tie for the tax benefits? 480V?? That's weird, I also thought it was either 12V, 24V, or 48V. It's no big deal really about that specific company's prices, I was just curious but it's not worth more than a passing question, I bought a disaster relief manual pump UF hollow membrane water purifier from them, quite robust it is 79 lbs and approximately a 25" cube, mostly shipped to foreign countries like Haiti after hurricanes and the like. So like I said no real comparison for their pricing practices based on that product because I don't know of any other purifier that resembles it even remotely. So oh well, I bought it and I'm glad, back to general solar questions lol. 

Here's one, do any of you ever think about buying LifePo4s? I understand how great they are but the prices are flat out insane!! Is it a common belief among the more knowledgeable solar power gurus that LifePo4s are simply not worth it unless prices come down significantly? My god a 48V 1000AH LifePo4 battery costs more than some new cars! But on the other side of the argument I've heard people say that LifePo4s are too new to be able to know their true lifespan, and that the quoted 5-7 average is totally selling them short, some would argue well over 10 years. I don't know which side to believe. At these prices it would have to be bare minimum 15 years to be worth it. I read in one place that if you don't drain under 20% you WILL get 5000 cycles. Statements like that make you wonder if they are worth it.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

Yes being grid tied vs off grid is mutually exclusive, you can go grid tie to get the power company rebate (which most are gone now), because the power companies were mandated to be 5% alt energy by 2020. After installation you can add something like a Schneider XW6848+ inverter charger with batteries to be independent when the grid goes down, I bought a NIB XW6848 online for $2,700 shipped, which was great for a $4,500 inverter. Now just need the batteries and time...

For grid tie converters that are central, 200-600 VDC is what they are capable of using, economy of the wire size is where that comes from, they still convert incoming VDC to 240 VAC at 60 Hz.

New batteries will be coming down the pike, and we will evaluate them as they get some history behind them, for now if you are a do-it-yourselfer, 6 volt golf cart batteries from Costco are the most economical.

Edited to add: You guys are confusing the 12-24-48 VDC battery banks with what is more economical to string the power panel together with, a 480 VDC string of Power Panels, feeds a converter charger which converts that 480 volts to 50+ vdc to charge the battery bank, and to 240 vac to run you household equipment. Again it is cheaper in wire size to do that, also cheaper in transformer wire size in the converter/inverter charger.

*Rancher*


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Ok it sounds like grid tie with a little side set up of batteries is the way to go! Sounds like the prices are better when you go grid tie AND if you aren't without power what difference would it make, free electric bill is a free electric bill!



azrancher said:


> After installation you can add something like a Schneider XW6848+ inverter charger with batteries to be independent when the grid goes down, I bought a NIB XW6848 online for $2,700 shipped, which was great for a $4,500 inverter. Now just need the batteries and time...


Is Schneider one of the the best? I don't know much but a few people have told me to get an Outback because they are top shelf...maybe Outback & Schneider are like Honda & Toyota.



azrancher said:


> New batteries will be coming down the pike


Do you have any links? Better than LifePo4s?? That would be awesome if a superior battery caused LifePo4s to become an 'Old technology' and drove their prices down! If money was no object this would be my battery bank...

48 Volt Lithium Energy Storage Battery for Solar



azrancher said:


> Edited to add: You guys are confusing the 12-24-48 VDC battery banks with what is more economical to string the power panel together with, a 480 VDC string of Power Panels, feeds a converter charger which converts that 480 volts to 50+ vdc to charge the battery bank, and to 240 vac to run you household equipment. Again it is cheaper in wire size to do that, also cheaper in transformer wire size in the converter/inverter charger.
> 
> *Rancher*


Oh ok that makes sense, the 480V section of the system does not negate you having a 48V battery bank.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> So are being grid tied and being off grid with a battery bank mutually exclusive? Do you have to grid tie for the tax benefits? .


No, They are not mutually exclusive. My story.

My plan was a medium sized battery bank (395 amp/hr 48v) which my Schneider (also known as Conext) XW+ 6848 inverter and Conext charge controller would primarily run the house off solar and after the batteries were charged each day sell power excess power back to the grid. The XW+ 6848 can monitor the batteries SOC (state of charge and at a battery voltage level I program automatically switch from battery power to grid power to help protect the batteries from deep discharging during bad weather. Using "grid assist" it is also capable of staying on battery power until a large load comes on drawing a large amount to power (also programmable) and use grid power for a short time while the large load is running.

Since the stove and clothes dryer are such power hogs I left them totally on the grid. The hot water heater I switched to a Rheem propane powered tankless model which my propane company gave me for free (I must use that propane company for 3 years to get the deal). Georgia Power at the time charged a $10/month meter fee and paid full price for any power I exported to the grid. Georgia Power then charged people in Atlanta a premium to use "solar generated electricity" so they could pay me full price for the power I sold them.

Designing and building the system took me about 8 months (yes, I self installed) and by the time the system was ready for me to bring in the required electrician to wire the 2 way meter (a $1200 job after permits and inspections) the power company was increasing the meter fees to $15/month and lowered how much the were willing to pay for my electricity. So..... I never took the final step of hooking the 2 way meter and sell to the grid.

Instead I added a high efficiency mini-split and increased the battery bank size to more fully utilize the power I make. Occasionally during the winter after 2-3 days of low solar (lots of rain) I will flip the breaker so the grid can be seen by the inverter and program the inverter to "grid assist" so the grid can power the house through the inverter. The "grid assist" means my inverter will always attempt to use solar/battery to power the house but if the batteries get too low the inverter will automatically use the grid power if needed to keep my batteries from getting too deeply discharged.

So now the house (excluding the stove and dryer) is almost always solar powered but I do have grid backup when I want it. Many utilities are getting enough solar to meet federal requirements and are becoming less solar friendly to new installations so check with your local utility before planning to sell back to the grid. Since the clothes dryer and stove use about $28/mo in electricity I don't have to pay any line fees (if you use almost no power the company will charge for maintaining the power lines) and I like having grid backup.

And you do not have to be grid tied to take the 30% tax credit.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

paraquack said:


> I though about going with it until I found out that most companies run 480VDC instead of the usual
> 12, 24 or 48 VDC we are used to seeing.


The charge controller I'm using can handle up to 600v and feed a 48v battery with it. My panel strings are wired to put out 355v and the controller drops that to the required voltage for my 48v battery bank. 
Conext 80-600 controller


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

That's a pretty good idea to just leave those 2 power hungry items on grid power alone. Let me ask you this, you have 395AH at 48V...if you had LifePo4s would it be equivalent to being a larger system? Since they can be discharged down to 20% on a regular basis?


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## Stick (Sep 29, 2014)

Sounds like an awful lot of money.


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Stick said:


> Sounds like an awful lot of money.


You ain't lying that's why I'm leaning towards diesel. And that option ain't exactly easy on the wallet either lol. In the $10K to $15K price range you're talking about ready to go top of the line sound enclosure diesel generator that's designed to run 24/7 for many years. But you of course have to buy the fuel. The decision has to be made on how often I'll use it. All the time, gotta go solar. The more I lean towards part time use the more diesel would be better IMO. I fluctuate on the idea of pulling off a small operation on my garage, to saying screw it and making it primary form of power (which would definitely mean solar).


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> That's a pretty good idea to just leave those 2 power hungry items on grid power alone. Let me ask you this, you have 395AH at 48V...if you had LifePo4s would it be equivalent to being a larger system? Since they can be discharged down to 20% on a regular basis?


Actually at this point I'm running a 48v 790 amp/hr bank so I can use the mini-split to provide heat and AC through much of the night if desired.

LA and AGM batteries last the longest when rarely cycled below 60% DOD (depth of discharge) and prefer to run 100% fully charged. so a range of about 70% to 100% DOD to maximize life. In an emergency you can drain a LA or AGM battery down to 20% SOC but you don't want to make a habit of doing so.

LifePo4s have a "happy range" of 20-95% charge so basically twice the usable power while keeping a long life so you can cut the battery bank size in half without hurting battery life. But even at half the battery bank size you're paying a lot more for LifePo4s which require a BMS (battery monitoring system). The BMS is usually built into the battery but adds an additional failure point to lithium batteries. For people who are concerned about EMP the BMS of a lithium based battery set probably will not survive.

Assuming a high quality battery
LA has lowest cost and if carefully maintained (1-2 hrs a month) will last about 7-10 years. A forklift LA battery may last a little longer, like 12-14 years but weighs a ton. They are about 88% efficient at absorbing and releasing the energy. 
AGM battery costs about 30-40% more than LA of the same size, requires no maintence but only lasts about 6-8 years and is hard to accurately measure it's true SOC accurately so hard to fine tune the controller to maximize battery life.
LifePo4s are much lighter weight and can be drained much lower than LA and AGM batteries and still maintain their 15-20 year expected life. This assumes the electronics in the BMS hold up. But since they can be drained deeper you can get away with a much smaller battery bank. They are about 95% efficient at absorbing and releasing the energy.
NiFe (Edison Battery) are larger, heavy, expensive, only about 80% efficient, require a lot of watering, but last 20-30 years.

I like the lower cost and reliability of LA batteries but sometimes wish I didn't need to deal with the monthly maintance. Keep in mind it is almost always cheaper to conserve energy than to make it.


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

How common is it for LifePo4 BMS to fail? And if it fails is it something that usually gets noticed than replaced, or does it tend to destroy the battery? Their happy range is 20% - 95%, so you do not charge them until they're full? That's weird.



John Galt said:


> NiFe (Edison Battery) are larger, heavy, expensive, only about 80% efficient, require a lot of watering, but last 20-30 years.


Wasn't there another major disadvantage to them? I remember that I went nuts when I found out about their 20-30 year lifespan, but there was a major con that caused me to scratch them off my list. I'm pretty sure them being big & heavy, and even being 80% efficient wouldn't cause me to totally forget about them, and i can be lazy but if I can get 30 years even I wouldn't mind watering. I can't quite remember, weren't they very sensitive to temperature in some way?

Thinking about the whole grid tied, but with battery backup option discussion, this complete system looks great (from Edison)...

http://ironedison.com/xw-grid-backup-6kw-solar-and-lithium-battery

Here's an Edison complete system roughly in the same price range but with Nickel Iron...

http://ironedison.com/liberty-package

It's so fun to look at these, paying for them not so much fun lol


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> How common is it for LifePo4 BMS to fail? And if it fails is it something that usually gets noticed than replaced, or does it tend to destroy the battery? Their happy range is 20% - 95%, so you do not charge them until they're full? That's weird.
> 
> Wasn't there another major disadvantage to them? I remember that I went nuts when I found out about their 20-30 year lifespan, but there was a major con that caused me to scratch them off my list. I'm pretty sure them being big & heavy, and even being 80% efficient wouldn't cause me to totally forget about them, and i can be lazy but if I can get 30 years even I wouldn't mind watering. I can't quite remember, weren't they very sensitive to temperature in some way?


The primary problems with Iron Edison is their low efficiency and high self discharge rates so you need more panels and Nichol Iron batteries are quite expensive to buy and to maintain. I'm not positive about this but I've heard that the electrolyte needs to be changed out every 5 years. You'll need to do your own research on that point.

LifePo4 BMS systems seem fairly robust but the technology is so new.... something to conceder. LifePo4 is one of the less fire causing lithium chemistries but overcharging lithium batteries is a good way to start a fire. Some lithium battery chemistries are down right nasty about starting a fire when even a little overcharged. Remember the Galaxy 7 cell phones catching fire a few months ago???

On the solar forums most members actively maintain their systems and LA is by far the 1st choice but lots of interest in Lithiums with their higher efficiency and lower maintance. On the systems where the owner hires someone to design and install you'll see more AGM and Lithium battery installations because of their lower maintance. Long term solar battery owners do get tired of watering their batteries so less likely to go for the high $ Iron Edison batteries which really like the water.

A very knowledgeable solar forum with many long term solar users and a few installers.
Recent Discussions ? northernarizona-windandsun


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Ahhh that's what it was the rapid self discharge!!!! Conversely I hear the polar opposite with LifePo4s, I've heard people say there is ZERO self discharge!! So when it comes to LifePo4 and Nickel Iron looks like they are polar opposites for self discharge. Thanks for the link I'll check it out tonight.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

In the future when my LA batteries are dying and assuming money is good I'd probably either go with Edison batteries (EMP proof but high maintance) or Lithium. After the monthly hour long battery maintance my back is usually hurting from bending over the damn things and I'm still relatively young and physically active.

A general rule of thumb for new solar owners who are going to maintain their system is to get a "starter set" of LA batteries. You will make mistakes, I have; I trusted the $400 SOC meter to much and chronically undercharged my batteries the 1st eight months without taking SG readings as I should have. Now I check the SG (specific gravity) at least weekly and adjust the CC (charge controller) as needed. Golf cart batteries work well for a starter set. Go big, like 6v L-16s or larger, to minimize the number of battery cells to check and water. But always remember to become more energy efficient first.


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