# Worst-Ever Homeschool Law Proposed in Ohio



## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

One thing socialism, Communism and Fascism has in common is the indoctrination of Children. One of the reason this administration is so against home schooling. Especially since home schooled children excel over public schools. Ohio is testing the water for other states. 
SB 248 is breathtakingly onerous in its scope. It requires all parents who homeschool to undergo a social services investigation which would ultimately determine if homeschooling would be permitted. Social workers would have to interview parents and children separately, conduct background checks and determine whether homeschooling is recommended or not. If it is not recommended, parents would have to submit to an "intervention" before further consideration of their request to homeschool.

HSLDA | Worst-Ever Homeschool Law Proposed in Ohio


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

I would schedule my meeting for 12:30 (after lunch) and then make sure I was out of the jurisdiction by 6:00AM.
Are we in Germany? is the date 1929? When are people going to say enough!?


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

rickkyw1720pf said:


> One thing socialism, Communism and Fascism has in common is the indoctrination of Children. One of the reason this administration is so against home schooling. Especially since home schooled children excel over public schools. Ohio is testing the water for other states.
> SB 248 is breathtakingly onerous in its scope. It requires all parents who homeschool to undergo a social services investigation which would ultimately determine if homeschooling would be permitted. Social workers would have to interview parents and children separately, conduct background checks and determine whether homeschooling is recommended or not. If it is not recommended, parents would have to submit to an "intervention" before further consideration of their request to homeschool.
> 
> HSLDA | Worst-Ever Homeschool Law Proposed in Ohio


One more way to intimidate parents into submitting their children for indoctrination. it's a damn disgrace and its time for people to stand up and be heard. Social services ever get involved in your life you will never get rid of them&#8230;.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

i have no real issue with public education, but only because of my modern history teacher (was a well worded conspiracy nut) the biggest thing drilled into us was "question everything, and no matter what, never trust the government"

followed by a few cold war "conspiracy theories" and proved one right (couldn't believe it)

but on track any parent that home schools, hats off to you, I couldn't do it, and as long as they are learning what is needed to pass high school... there is nothing anyone should say about it

oh I believe it's the parents job to teach children "question everything".... (and hopefully a good school teacher reinforces it)


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

This does not surprise me coming from Ohio. I guess it was a better place to grow up in, than live. I was just having a discussion today at work with one of our Special Education teachers about the "Common Core" program. I work with several teachers who are against this program for several reasons, including what they perceive as indoctrination.

What has been missed by most, is when you teach* EVERYONE* the* SAME THING* across the board, *you have no diversity in education*. You have no independent thinking. You have no new ideas. EVERYTHING is the SAME. What's that sound like? COMM(unism)ON CORE. It is progressive socialism at its best. Individuality is being obliterated. And it is being replaced with teachings of the COMMON GOOD (CORE).

While I believe in common things that are for the good of our country such as prosperity, liberty, and freedom, I cannot support an educational system that strips away individuality and independent thinking for the COMMON GOOD (CORE) as it is identified by our government.

The demise of our educational system is due to one thing; No Child Left Behind legislation. The government has perverted the education systems "Natural Selection" process. Not every child will succeed. Not every child will comprehend the material and curriculum. Not every child wants to be in school. They are dumbing down the curriculum to bare minimum standards in order to give those who would be lost through "Natural Selection" a fighting chance and some self esteem. Today's "Advanced Placement" curriculum was the standard curriculum 25 years ago. We reward mediocrity, we fail to prepare our children for college and we release hoards of functionally illiterate children with high school diploma's into our society.

I have personally watched students walk in graduation ceremonies and receive their full blown "I passed high school" diploma, after taking a 3rd grade level competency exam, that was read to them because they could not read (after failing to pass a 4th grade level competency exam) JUST LIKE THE CLASS VALEDICTORIAN WHO WORKED THEIR ASS OFF AND PULLED A 4.0 GPA. Same ultimate reward, much, much different path taken to obtain it.

Many students who leave our schools can barely function in a 100 level course at a Junior or "Community" College. Places we used to refer to as "The 13th grade". They are incapable of performing academically because we have had liberals, socialists, progressives and communist's infiltrate and seize our education system and do nothing but attempt to create a world of hugs and balloons filled with false promises and unfounded hope.

I have assured our wife that when Common Core is in full implentation, we will be home schooling our children. They will learn my values, not the ones our government says they should have.


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## BamaBoy101 (Dec 9, 2013)

Todays schools teach children to be little liberal drones....


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

bigdogbuc said:


> This does not surprise me coming from Ohio. I guess it was a better place to grow up in, than live. I was just having a discussion today at work with one of our Special Education teachers about the "Common Core" program. I work with several teachers who are against this program for several reasons, including what they perceive as indoctrination.
> 
> What has been missed by most, is when you teach* EVERYONE* the* SAME THING* across the board, *you have no diversity in education*. You have no independent thinking. You have no new ideas. EVERYTHING is the SAME. What's that sound like? COMM(unism)ON CORE. It is progressive socialism at its best. Individuality is being obliterated. And it is being replaced with teachings of the COMMON GOOD (CORE).
> 
> ...


yea I worked with a yank that said the same thing followed with "no one gets left behind syndrome"

the education system is failing in western countries.... but there are some quality schools still around


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## nurseholly (Oct 7, 2013)

Not on New Mexico... the elementary school my daughter goes to was a blue ribbon when she was on first grade. It has completely gone down hill with the third principal in three years. Thankfully, she had an excellent teacher this year and she is becoming more in tune with world events. It really is up to the parents to reinforcement values, character and a good work ethic.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

pheniox17 said:


> i have no real issue with public education, but only because of my modern history teacher (was a well worded conspiracy nut) the biggest thing drilled into us was "question everything, and no matter what, never trust the government"
> 
> followed by a few cold war "conspiracy theories" and proved one right (couldn't believe it)
> 
> ...


Why set the learning bar so low for educating your children. To meet that standard you would only need a couple hours a week of school if you take out all the bull shit the schools push.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

nurseholly said:


> Not on New Mexico... the elementary school my daughter goes to was a blue ribbon when she was on first grade. It has completely gone down hill with the third principal in three years. Thankfully, she had an excellent teacher this year and she is becoming more in tune with world events. It really is up to the parents to reinforcement values, character and a good work ethic.


I am on my eighth Assistant Principal in four years. The two that were here when I started left, replaced by two new ones, one left, one transferred in. Both of them were transferred to other schools in the district, so two more came in. One of those took a directors position in the district and another was brought in to replace her. I'm also on my 5th Student Counselor.

But by George we've had the same principal since the place opened in 2007. It also used to be Nike Missile Launch Site #92. Yep, a nuclear launch site surrounded by rural, residential neighborhoods was turned into a school. I had no idea it was ever there and now I wonder where the nearest one to my house is.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

I home schooled and privately educated my 5 children, the youngest just graduated so I guess I am OK.

My simple answer to this problem is this...

IF the state comes in and shuts down your homeschool and DEMANDS you send your kids to public school....

Put a pop-tart in his lunch on day 1 in the shape of a gun....

Instant 1 year suspension, they come home and you home school.

Push comes to shove and that doesn't work just tell your kid to hug his teacher...

Just saying, there are a hundred ways to get kicked out of school.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

ekim said:


> Why set the learning bar so low for educating your children. To meet that standard you would only need a couple hours a week of school if you take out all the bull shit the schools push.


need to start somewhere... but here the bar is a little higher than a few hours a week for a pass (we actually test students and have a "pass" or "fail" grade, (a-f but in a % form) could have changed over the past 10 years, but I doubt it


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Montana Rancher said:


> I home schooled and privately educated my 5 children, the youngest just graduated so I guess I am OK.
> 
> My simple answer to this problem is this...
> 
> ...


encourage a screaming match with the teacher that ends in violence (any form) kid is blacklisted form the public system (don't work once, go again)

outside that, illegal drugs work, swearing is good... the list goes on


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## PrepperLite (May 8, 2013)

Montana Rancher said:


> I home schooled and privately educated my 5 children, the youngest just graduated so I guess I am OK.
> 
> My simple answer to this problem is this...
> 
> ...


Recite the Pledge of Allegiance, and if that doesn't get them, include "under God" ...


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## Inor (Mar 22, 2013)

rickkyw1720pf said:


> One thing socialism, Communism and Fascism has in common is the indoctrination of Children. One of the reason this administration is so against home schooling. Especially since home schooled children excel over public schools. Ohio is testing the water for other states.
> SB 248 is breathtakingly onerous in its scope. It requires all parents who homeschool to undergo a social services investigation which would ultimately determine if homeschooling would be permitted. Social workers would have to interview parents and children separately, conduct background checks and determine whether homeschooling is recommended or not. If it is not recommended, parents would have to submit to an "intervention" before further consideration of their request to homeschool.
> 
> HSLDA | Worst-Ever Homeschool Law Proposed in Ohio


How is something like this even being considered? If the law passes there has to be at least one clever lawyer that could challenge it on so many levels.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Think how great the U.S. would be without public schools. I'm sure Leroy would educate his chillren.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Part of Ohio's problem goes back to the 60's and early 70's and the Vietnam war.

There were a lot of folks here against it, . . . didn't riot, . . . just found ways other than going to Canada to get around it.

A big BUNCH of them got into college, . . . signed up for the "teacher" curriculum, . . . and unfortunately it put a know-nothing / value-nothing / uphold-nothing kid in a class with others like him / her, . . . and generally taught by instructors and professors of the same persuasion.

Example: it was not a Sunday School class that caused the Kent State student riots that ultimately ended in the shooting.

NOW, . . . the remainder of the dregs of those classes are the senior teachers / administrators / guidance counselors who are wanting to leave some kind of legacy behind and this bad law and line of thinking is just up their alley, . . . therefore they are all for it.

I suspect most of my old teachers have rolled face down in their caskets having seen what is being foisted upon kids and called ecucation today.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

I think that there are other factors involved, including the teacher's unions applying pressure. The number of teachers is dependent upon the number of students. Fewer students, fewer dues paying teachers. Also, how does it make public schools look when parents at home teach their children. who then consistently score higher on tests then those students in the public schools? To them it must look something akin to a pickup football team in a park coming in and beating a NFL team. The "amateurs" are kicking the "pros" butts. Next look for them to start trying to shut down private schools/Catholic schools. They have made public schools look bad for decades. Just a funny little story, years ago I lived in Savannah, Ga. where 86% of the public school teachers sent THEIR children to private schools. What does that tell you.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

This is so sad the dereliction of government in not intervening for Teddy to protect him from abusive adults is now being utilized to justify government meddling and obstruction of nurturing parents.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

I would bet there would be a lot more kids home schooled if the parents knew more about it. Many parents think they need to be a teacher or well versed in all the subjects their children are taught.


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## Titan6 (May 19, 2013)

I believe that school is important but parenting is better.... I went to a public school in Chicago <talk about socialism> and grew up a liberal conservative due to my parents teaching me their ethics...I think Us as parents need to install foundation and keep it there on a daily basis and let the school build on that.Don't replace our ethics with the school teachings.. Have to stay involved in their live the whole time...An lord please never let the school replace you cause your to busy or don't have the time..Just my 2 cents worth.


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## jesstheshow (Nov 18, 2013)

Our education system is being dumbed down, year after year. I plan on homeschooling my two little ones when they get old enough. I will not put someone else in charge of teaching my child dumbed down B.S.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

I don't know what the public schools are like were you are but my kid took physics, chemistry, Spanish and calculus in high school. Doesn't sound dumbed down to me. How long has it been since some of the public school experts have actually been in a public school. She graduated from Baylor this year.


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## jesstheshow (Nov 18, 2013)

roy said:


> I don't know what the public schools are like were you are but my kid took physics, chemistry, Spanish and calculus in high school. Doesn't sound dumbed down to me. How long has it been since some of the public school experts have actually been in a public school. She graduated from Baylor this year.


I graduate in 2009 and I was in advanced courses and took chemistry, calculus, and integrated physics, I was also a part of the National Honors Society. What took me by surprise was that I was a credit short of an academic honors diploma, so I grabbed an extra, regular english class during my senior year...
OH MY GOD, it was frustrating because the curriculum was elementary to me and the students didn't know a whole lot of anything.

The basic curriculum has been getting easier and cutting corners since the no child left behind law. They want children to succeed, so they are making it easier, when it shouldnt be.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

roy said:


> I don't know what the public schools are like were you are but my kid took physics, chemistry, Spanish and calculus in high school. Doesn't sound dumbed down to me. How long has it been since some of the public school experts have actually been in a public school. She graduated from Baylor this year.


A whole lot depends on where your school system is. It's a very hit or miss situation. My youngest son was 11 yrs old when I retired from the Army, so we paid allot of attention to the local school systems when deciding where to live.

Have you watched some of the videos where a guy will go out to a major state university and ask them really hard questions like who did the United States fight in the Revolutionary War? What political party did Abraham Lincoln belong to? Who did we fight in WW2? How many branches are there to the Federal Government? Yes, at first it's funny how many of these "well educated" people, students and PROFESSORS, who don't have a clue. Then when you stop to think of it, it's not that funny anymore. I have seen them do the same thing on the streets of major cities. My sister-in-law has been a public school teacher for nearly thirty years, and has a Masters in education, which she will tell anyone at the drop of a hat. HER opinion on EVERYTHING is the most important, because she is so well educated. Last year the husband of my other sister-in-law and I were talking about a WW2 movie concerning the desperate fighting in the Pacific. My sister-in-law asked just how hard could it be with the United States, Briton, and JAPAN all fighting against the GERMANS, and how many lives would have been saved if we had just minded our own business and stayed out of it. This is a teacher in the public school system. By the way, she also thinks that ONLY police and the military should be allowed to have firearms in their homes, hunting is inhumane and should be illegal, and if you want to target shoot you should have to pay to have your firearms stored at the local police station. When she visits I spend allot of time either outside or at least in another room.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Under common core the Gettysburg Address is taught without any mention at all about the Civil War. Think that is a "good" education?


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Y'all have been listening to too much Rush and Glenn, both products of puplic schools. As always, some folks get more out of public schooling than others. Alot depends on how much you put into it. I have a teaching certificate and taught a few years at the elementary, junior high, high school and college level. My wife taught for 35 years in the public schools. I attended public schools starting in 1953, dropped out to join the Army in 1966. I have a little experience on both ends.


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

" My sister-in-law has been a public school teacher for nearly thirty years, and has a Masters in education, which she will tell anyone at the drop of a hat. HER opinion on EVERYTHING is the most important, because she is so well educated."

Back when my daughter was in junior high school, she was told off by her social studies teacher because she wrote American Indian instead of Native American. Fortunately parent/teacher conferences were in session. I told the pompous teacher that we use American Indian. He told me that he had a master's degree in Multiculturalism and she would have to use the correct term. I said as I was American Indian, my daughter would use that term. He said he could no longer spend any time discussing this as he had another appointment.

The next day I spent time in the school office detailing the "conference". The guy was fired after the end of the semester. I guess many parents had complained about him.


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## jesstheshow (Nov 18, 2013)

roy said:


> Y'all have been listening to too much Rush and Glenn, both products of puplic schools. As always, some folks get more out of public schooling than others. Alot depends on how much you put into it. I have a teaching certificate and taught a few years at the elementary, junior high, high school and college level. My wife taught for 35 years in the public schools. I attended public schools starting in 1953, dropped out to join the Army in 1966. I have a little experience on both ends.


YUCK, Rush is a pompous loser and Glenn sucks lol.

You are on the teaching end-I am not saying that teachers are bad, the system is. I dont care what certification you have, cutting spending on education and teacher's salaries is not going to end well. Less teachers, less money spent on training, less advancements in the system = bad education.


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## jesstheshow (Nov 18, 2013)

You have too much faith in those that are in control! Its all a part of the big picture here. When more people graduate, it makes them look good. You know how they are fixing it? They are cutting teachers, consolidating schools, and jacking with the curriculum so it is EASIER for students to graduate! How is that quality education?


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

They? Texas controls Texas public school. Ross Perot engineered accountability in Texas Public Schools. He ain't 'xactly a liberal.


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## jesstheshow (Nov 18, 2013)

roy said:


> They? Texas controls Texas public school. Ross Perot engineered accountability in Texas Public Schools. He ain't 'xactly a liberal.


I dont think this is a liberal/conservative issue.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

roy said:


> Y'all have been listening to too much Rush and Glenn, both products of puplic schools. As always, some folks get more out of public schooling than others. Alot depends on how much you put into it. I have a teaching certificate and taught a few years at the elementary, junior high, high school and college level. My wife taught for 35 years in the public schools. I attended public schools starting in 1953, dropped out to join the Army in 1966. I have a little experience on both ends.


Sorry, but I don't listen to either Rush or Glenn.

With all of your experience and certificates, can you please explain to me how the United States, which pays more per student for education then any other country in the World, ranks just about last in the industrialized World on math tests and just about every other test? Can you explain just why is it that the average test scores for students that are Home Schooled is consistently higher then those who attend public school? Have you ever been to a fast food place where their computer locks up so the cashier has to figure out how much change to give themselves? I have, and I ended up telling THEM how much they owed me. Talked to any recent High School graduates about U.S. History? Word Geography? It is a hit or miss situation on whether a kid gets a good education or not, and frankly it looks to me like recently there have started to be more misses then hits.

Please don't try to tell us the our country's education system is doing just fine and we are just listening to a bunch of negative Nellies. As we used to say, "Don't piss in my canteen and try to tell me it is lemonaide".


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

roy said:


> Y'all have been listening to too much Rush and Glenn, both products of puplic schools. As always, some folks get more out of public schooling than others. Alot depends on how much you put into it. I have a teaching certificate and taught a few years at the elementary, junior high, high school and college level. My wife taught for 35 years in the public schools. I attended public schools starting in 1953, dropped out to join the Army in 1966. I have a little experience on both ends.


Sorry, but I don't listen to either Rush or Glenn.

With all of your experience and certificates, can you please explain to me how the United States, which pays more per student for education then any other country in the World, ranks just about last in the industrialized World on math tests and just about every other test? Can you explain just why is it that the average test scores for students that are Home Schooled is consistently higher then those who attend public school? Have you ever been to a fast food place where their computer locks up so the cashier has to figure out how much change to give themselves? I have, and I ended up telling THEM how much they owed me. Talked to any recent High School graduates about U.S. History? Word Geography? It is a hit or miss situation on whether a kid gets a good education or not, and frankly it looks to me like recently there have started to be more misses then hits.

Please don't try to tell us the our country's education system is doing just fine and we are just listening to a bunch of negative Nellies. As we used to say, "Don't piss in my canteen and try to tell me it is lemonade".


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

I spent many years working "behind the scenes" (support services) for two large school districts. The amount of waste that occurs is unbelievable. When one of the districts successfully got a referendum passed, they spent thousands on printing business cards for teachers - 1500 for each teacher. One school district allowed and encouraged a "wellness" day - a day you could take off with pay for supposedly doing something healthy.

The biggest problem I saw were the unions. They protected bad teachers, lazy custodians and corrupt administrators. Get rid of the unions and the Department of Education and kids today might actually learn something.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Notsoyoung said:


> Sorry, but I don't listen to either Rush or Glenn.
> 
> With all of your experience and certificates, can you please explain to me how the United States, which pays more per student for education then any other country in the World, ranks just about last in the industrialized World on math tests and just about every other test? Can you explain just why is it that the average test scores for students that are Home Schooled is consistently higher then those who attend public school? Have you ever been to a fast food place where their computer locks up so the cashier has to figure out how much change to give themselves? I have, and I ended up telling THEM how much they owed me. Talked to any recent High School graduates about U.S. History? Word Geography? It is a hit or miss situation on whether a kid gets a good education or not, and frankly it looks to me like recently there have started to be more misses then hits.
> 
> Please don't try to tell us the our country's education system is doing just fine and we are just listening to a bunch of negative Nellies. As we used to say, "Don't piss in my canteen and try to tell me it is lemonaide".


Yes, I can tell you. Our smart kids are as smart or smarter than theri smart kid. They don't try to teach algebra to morons. We are handicapped with a large population of folks who have an average I.Q. of 85 that they don't have to deal with.

I have friends who home school there kids. They are both certified teachers. The older did 1580 on the SAT (Math/Verbal). The younger did 1360 on the PSAT, didn't make the coutoff for National Merti Scholar but was close. I'm not against home schooling. Most folks don't have what it takes to pull it off. Would you want Leroy to home school his kid?


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

MrsInor said:


> I spent many years working "behind the scenes" (support services) for two large school districts. The amount of waste that occurs is unbelievable. When one of the districts successfully got a referendum passed, they spent thousands on printing business cards for teachers - 1500 for each teacher. One school district allowed and encouraged a "wellness" day - a day you could take off with pay for supposedly doing something healthy.
> 
> The biggest problem I saw were the unions. They protected bad teachers, lazy custodians and corrupt administrators. Get rid of the unions and the Department of Education and kids today might actually learn something.


In Texas we call our waste football.


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

Don't get me started high school athletics. Or this letter jacket crap. The high school our daughters went to allowed students to letter in homecoming or prom!?! WTF.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

roy said:


> Yes, I can tell you. Our smart kids are as smart or smarter than theri smart kid. They don't try to teach algebra to morons. We are handicapped with a large population of folks who have an average I.Q. of 85 that they don't have to deal with.
> 
> I have friends who home school there kids. They are both certified teachers. The older did 1580 on the SAT (Math/Verbal). The younger did 1360 on the PSAT, didn't make the coutoff for National Merti Scholar but was close. I'm not against home schooling. Most folks don't have what it takes to pull it off. Would you want Leroy to home school his kid?


So the reason that the U.S. scores so low is that the average student is a borderline idiot? Yeah, right, that's what the problem is.... but why is it that in the 60's and 70's the test scores for public school students were near the top in the world? Didn't they teach math and other subjects to everyone then? I guess the average student has just gotten stupider in the past few decades. 
So just how many certified teachers home school their kids? As I said, on the average home schooled kids score higher on test scores then public schools, and very few of the parents are certified teachers.

What happened in the 60's and 70's that could have changed things???? Oh yeah, teacher unions.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

There are no teacher unions in Texas. Teacher orginazations like NEA were around long before the 60s. Let's compare apples to apples. The average SAT scores haven't changed much since the 60s. I know, they have been adjusted. "Recentered" is the word they use. I don't know how to put this delicately. Most Asian and European countries don't have large Black and Mexican populations. Most of the folks who get into Ivy League school, like 2/3rds, come out of public school. On average, most home schooled kids come from homes where the parents and children are above average and motivated. How do you think Bubba's, Leroy's are Juan's kids would fare? In many countries the stupid and unmotivated kids never make it to high school.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

Low test scores pay. Every year we hear about low test scores and the next thing you hear is they need more money, so we keep throwing money at the situation and the test scores keep getting lower.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

roy said:


> Yes, I can tell you. Our smart kids are as smart or smarter than theri smart kid. They don't try to teach algebra to morons. We are handicapped with a large population of folks who have an average I.Q. of 85 that they don't have to deal with.
> 
> I have friends who home school there kids. They are both certified teachers. The older did 1580 on the SAT (Math/Verbal). The younger did 1360 on the PSAT, didn't make the coutoff for National Merti Scholar but was close. I'm not against home schooling. Most folks don't have what it takes to pull it off. Would you want Leroy to home school his kid?


Do you really believe all the bull shit your posting or are you just a good comrade? Seems the results don't quite back up what your saying, or are you saying the results posted are wrong and the government is mis leading the people?


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

When looking at home school vs public school it seems that all the reasons that public schools use to explain low scores disappear. 
Student home schooled by certified teachers did no better than other kids and income had little to do with test scores.
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/de...02/2a/1361915865_7922_graph.JPG?itok=v1Wifj3b


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

roy said:


> There are no teacher unions in Texas. Teacher orginazations like NEA were around long before the 60s. Let's compare apples to apples. The average SAT scores haven't changed much since the 60s. I know, they have been adjusted. "Recentered" is the word they use. I don't know how to put this delicately. Most Asian and European countries don't have large Black and Mexican populations. Most of the folks who get into Ivy League school, like 2/3rds, come out of public school. On average, most home schooled kids come from homes where the parents and children are above average and motivated. How do you think Bubba's, Leroy's are Juan's kids would fare? In many countries the stupid and unmotivated kids never make it to high school.


Wow. Can honestly say that I never saw the conversation going in this direction. It's the fault of the Blacks and Mexicans huh? I think that I am done with this conversation.


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## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

Bacon anyone?


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## nurseholly (Oct 7, 2013)

MrsInor said:


> Bacon anyone?


I could go for a bacon break...


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Notsoyoung said:


> Wow. Can honestly say that I never saw the conversation going in this direction. It's the fault of the Blacks and Mexicans huh? I think that I am done with this conversation.


I guess you can blame Dog. If you take a look at the SAT scores for the last 20 years or so that are broken out by race and gender you can make up you own mind. Sorry! Your mind is already made up.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

roy said:


> There are no teacher unions in Texas. Teacher orginazations like NEA were around long before the 60s. Let's compare apples to apples. The average SAT scores haven't changed much since the 60s. I know, they have been adjusted. "Recentered" is the word they use. I don't know how to put this delicately. Most Asian and European countries don't have large Black and Mexican populations. Most of the folks who get into Ivy League school, like 2/3rds, come out of public school. On average, most home schooled kids come from homes where the parents and children are above average and motivated. How do you think Bubba's, Leroy's are Juan's kids would fare? In many countries the stupid and unmotivated kids never make it to high school.


wow... just wow, we have a large black population to, can I blame them for everything??????

the biggest problem isn't the colour of the skin, it's that bs no one gets left behind attitude, get rid of that, the smart kids will improve, the average kids will be average ,and the "dumb" kids can learn "life skills"

watch the average rise then, don't believe me?? that's our system, and we force kids to goto school (earning or learning) and still show a result


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Aboriginals are not Black . . . well they are black but they are not *****.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

roy said:


> Aboriginals are not Black . . . well they are black but they are not *****.


that maybe so, but like all of that kind of society, it's full of its own issues..... and some live worse than the American Indians, it's a is what it is environment


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

roy said:


> Y'all have been listening to too much Rush and Glenn, both products of puplic schools. As always, some folks get more out of public schooling than others. A lot depends on how much you put into it. I have a teaching certificate and taught a few years at the elementary, junior high, high school and college level. My wife taught for 35 years in the public schools. I attended public schools starting in 1953, dropped out to join the Army in 1966. I have a little experience on both ends.


Roy,

I currently work in the public school system. I see it first hand. I deal with its "catastrophes" not only at work as the head of security, but out in public as a part time Police Officer. The school system as you, and even I knew it, no longer exists. It just doesn't. Simply be happy that your child benefited from a good high school education that actually prepared her for college. I'm sure it also helped to have two certificated teachers in the house as well.

I work with teachers who have no classroom management skills whatsoever. I am a security officer and I am called on to manage classrooms every single day. I am a behavior, attendance and academic interventionist. I was our drug interventionist until we hired one this year. I arrange and conduct "staffings" which are parent/student/teacher/administrator meetings when a kid is falling through the cracks. I am the one that deals with irate and hostile parents. I am a tutor. I am a mentor. I seek services for students, dealing with everything from homelessness to mental health issues to pregnancy. I deal with children who are abused emotionally, physically and sexually. I make referrals to Child Protective Services and Indian Child Welfare.

I deal with students who are drug addicted. I deal with their drug addicted, alcoholic and schizophrenic parents as well who do nothing but bash me because *I* am not taking care of *THEIR* child. I deal with drug dealers who are students in my school. I deal with harassment, bullying, intimidation, sexting and "johnny sent my naked photo to his friends" on a near daily basis. All of which, UNDER THE LAW, I am required to not only respond to and document thoroughly, but also report to the authorities. All the while, under the gun not to report so we don't receive a bad rating.

I deal with students every day who will look you in the face and tell you to **** OFF with the ease that you and I would say good morning to one another. I deal with sexual predators and registered sex offenders; sitting in my classrooms next to* my* very own children. I deal with convicted felons who have committed armed robbery, stolen cars, assaulted police officers, stolen firearms, commit burglaries and burn down houses.

You see, as a parent, YOU will never know this stuff because there is a federal act called FERPA (which I'm sure you're aware of as a former teacher) that deals with a students privacy. As a teacher, YOU are on a need to know basis, and mostly, you don't need to know, according to the interpretation of the administrator in charge. Some will, most won't. *YOU WILL NEVER KNOW* what monster lurks in your classroom, and *YOU WILL NEVER KNOW* just how jeopardized your safety really is.

And you say to yourself "But you're just a security officer. You're classified staff, not certified. How and why are you doing all of this?" And you are very much correct. But we have no resources to provide the services that students need. Because not only are we an "education system", but we have devolved into a social service organization as well. And the law forces this on us. And we are BROKE as a district. We are underfunded. Our enrollment numbers are up from our projections, but down from what they used to be. And for every kid that leaves, we lose over $5000 in funding. And that's just the simple formula.

One district over from mine is a very well to do community that has more millionaires per capita than anywhere else in our state. And it has a lot of money. Hell, a student parking permit there is $300. Ours is $40. It is considered more along the lines of a College Preparatory School than a high school. It is the school where my principals children attend. It is the school that my Asst. Superintendent's children attended. Our district is rural with a mix of really well to do, or dirt poor. And like anything else, MONEY buys success. It buys not guilty verdicts. It buys votes. And unfortunately, it buys an education, or it doesn't.

So rather than just walking the hallways encouraging kids to get to class, and roaming the trails busting smokers and stoners, issuing parking citations here and there, this is what I deal with everyday for less than $18 an hour. And I wouldn't change it for the world, because someone had to do it and it might as well be me, because I know that I give a shit about these kids.

I don't mean to insult you, and I apologize if I do, but you need to come out of your bubble. What I am hearing from you seems very much based on assumption; the assumption that because your child succeeded in school, even that your child's school was a good one, that all students must be equally as successful, all schools equally as good. And that is not the case. Though I do agree that you get out of something what you put into it, to a degree.

ANd I haven't listened to Glenn since FOX canned him, and never really cared for Rush.


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## rickkyw1720pf (Nov 17, 2012)

@bigdogbuc 
Thanks for your service, I think you mentioned part of the problem and that is the schools receive a certain amount for each student that is in school so instead of the drug dealer and bullies that in the past would have dropped out of school they are being forced to school with children that want an education. The only way to get your child out of that situation is either to send them to private school or home school.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

rickkyw1720pf said:


> @bigdogbuc
> Thanks for your service, I think you mentioned part of the problem and that is the schools receive a certain amount for each student that is in school so instead of the drug dealer and bullies that in the past would have dropped out of school they are being forced to school with children that want an education. The only way to get your child out of that situation is either to send them to private school or home school.


You got it. And those drug dealers and bullies are compelled by law, to be in school. Couple that with "No Child Left Behind", and you have the perfect recipe for the shit storm we call public education. Everybody suffers except for the ones who really don't want to be there because they don't give a shit anyway.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Public education was and is being transformed in this country. When they federalized the education system and wrote the new curriculum it started becoming a propaganda instrument. It has progressed to a socialist tool to teach kids that getting along and team work is more important than excelling. If a child does well then he or she is told to help the others in their group so that everyone does better - except the one that was excelling.

I sat through a week of my grandson's classes and what I experienced made me sick. There are no desks - the kids sit together at a table. They are encouraged to share their answers and "help" each other learn. If someone is pushed they are supposed to diffuse the situation by any means necessary because conflict is not acceptable. So the bullies and ignorant run the classrooms and the teachers ignore what they don't want to deal with. My grandson was labeled as "disruptive" and "slow" because he questioned what was going on and when he needed help he would ask the teacher to explain it. He was attacked by three other boys (from a higher grade level) on the playground and was suspended for "fighting" because they had him on the ground kicking him. 

We took him out of the school and began home schooling and never looked back. He reads at a level that is three grades ahead of his and his math skills are above his grade level too. Yep! he's slow alright. Slow to be a sheeple. Slow to cow tow to a system in which mediocrity is the goal. We are using the Ron Paul curriculum in the home schooling process and he gets the education that all our kids should get. He is facinated by the constitution and the system of government that was setup in the USA. He is also questioning why things are the way they are and he is only 11 years old.

Our education used to breed excellence but that was before the feds stepped all over it and gave the local curriculum the boot and installed socialist propaganda as a substitute for education. 

Oh, and it was a republican who started this process - and you wonder why I am a Libertarian?


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

bigdogbuc said:


> Roy,
> 
> I currently work in the public school system. I see it first hand. I deal with its "catastrophes" not only at work as the head of security, but out in public as a part time Police Officer. The school system as you, and even I knew it, no longer exists. It just doesn't. Simply be happy that your child benefited from a good high school education that actually prepared her for college. I'm sure it also helped to have two certificated teachers in the house as well.
> 
> ...


You ain't tellin' me nothin'. I worked as the newest teacher in a ghetto junior high. Most of my "students" we either on probation or pregnant. Can you imagine what these "kids" would be doin' without public schools.

Most public schools are doin' an adequate jobs. Most of us are products of public school and we are doin' O.K.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

PaulS said:


> Public education was and is being transformed in this country. When they federalized the education system and wrote the new curriculum it started becoming a propaganda instrument. It has progressed to a socialist tool to teach kids that getting along and team work is more important than excelling. If a child does well then he or she is told to help the others in their group so that everyone does better - except the one that was excelling.
> 
> I sat through a week of my grandson's classes and what I experienced made me sick. There are no desks - the kids sit together at a table. They are encouraged to share their answers and "help" each other learn. If someone is pushed they are supposed to diffuse the situation by any means necessary because conflict is not acceptable. So the bullies and ignorant run the classrooms and the teachers ignore what they don't want to deal with. My grandson was labeled as "disruptive" and "slow" because he questioned what was going on and when he needed help he would ask the teacher to explain it. He was attacked by three other boys (from a higher grade level) on the playground and was suspended for "fighting" because they had him on the ground kicking him.
> 
> ...


BS. "They" haven't federalized the education system . . . at least in Texas. Texas sets the curriculum and determines the textbooks used for much of the rest of the country.


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## bigdogbuc (Mar 23, 2012)

roy said:


> You ain't tellin' me nothin'. I worked as the newest teacher in a ghetto junior high. Most of my "students" we either on probation or pregnant. Can you imagine what these "kids" would be doin' without public schools.
> 
> Most public schools are doin' an adequate jobs. Most of us are products of public school and we are doin' O.K.


"These kids" as you described them, would be doing what they're doing now with or without public schools. And I would prefer that they just go away and leave the kids alone who actually want to be in school and get something out of it. But we have far too much "feel good, warm and fuzzy, hugs and balloons" legislation in place. Our curriculum is "dumbed" down (No Child Left Behind/Common Core) and it seems hard, because they aren't prepared on their way up, and this is true all the way through college.

One of my new administrators, who is from Texas by the way, has just started commenting on the lack of preparation our high school students are receiving from our middle school. Really? Because I've been saying it since my kids started middle school (my oldest is now 21). But I'm just a dumb uneducated parent without a cool degree that didn't have some published study from the world of academia tell me that despite all the indicators, things are actually just fine.

You were a teacher Roy, look at No Child Left Behind/Common Core logically and without emotion or personal convictions;

Susie has an IQ of 150. Jimmy has an IQ of 50. Jimmy is not intelligent at all and some consider him functionally illiterate. Jimmy's parents know this, Jimmy knows this and the school knows this. Jimmy stops going to school ad Susie feels good about it, because the other kids made fun of Jimmy. One day, an evil liberal came along and said "We need to make a new law that makes school equal for everyone." Someone else said, "Let's call it No Child Left Behind". Someone else shouted out "And we can call the curriculum Common Core". All the evil liberals cheered and began hugging trees. When they were done, they set their plan in motion.

As time went on, an evil liberal knocked on Jimmy's door and said "Jimmy, you get to go back to school and we are going to waste tens of thousands dollars teaching you things at a level you can comprehend. It will be the same for everybody." Jimmy replied "But what about Susie? She's really smart and this curriculum would be far too easy for her and she would get bored. She might even get mad at me because we would have the same diploma and it would mean nothing to her, or future employers and colleges." The evil liberal was shocked at what Jimmy had said, but they gave him a reward for being mediocre in spite of it.

Susie became frustrated and asked the question "Why am I being punished with this easy curriculum? I am not learning to my potential, and because Jimmy isn't smart, I have to suffer?" This angered the evil liberals. They accused her of trying to use class and status to deny Jimmy his education. Susie could take no more and began using drugs. She turned to prostitution to support her habit, eventually taking on a career in pornography. Susie was found dead one day in a cheap motel, a needle hanging from her arm.

Jimmy went on to graduate and receive his diploma. He still has trouble finding and maintaining employment. When he does, it is at minimum wage, if not slightly above. He was turned down from every college he applied to because he could not pass their entrance exams, in spite of his high school diploma. It turns out that our colleges and universities still maintain the same academic standards. The evil liberals, well, they still count every diploma issued, not necessarily earned, but issued, a glowing success.

And they continue to dance and cheer and hug trees...

Roy, if no child is to be left behind, the curriculum standards have to be lowered in order to accommodate them. It's basic economics. It has to be done. And it screws up the natural selection of our society. Not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer, or a biologist, or a nurse, or a firefighter or FBI agent. Some will be relegated to what are viewed as "menial jobs". What's happening here is the masses are being dumbed down while the ultra rich still get to send their kids to private schools that actually prepare them for college. Public school kids will ultimately be their bitches.

I have a girl who was third in line to be Valedictorian when she graduated. She received an academic scholarship as well as an athletic scholarship. Those scholarships are gone and she is at a community college now. Because it turns out she wasn't prepared for college after all, in spite of all of her Advanced Placement courses and straight A's. And she was nearly successful at her suicide attempt. I work with her mother. That is a story that plays itself out everyday because we have messed with natural selection in the world of education.

We can't make everyone happy all of the time.


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

bigdogbuc said:


> "These kids" as you described them, would be doing what they're doing now with or without public schools. And I would prefer that they just go away and leave the kids alone who actually want to be in school and get something out of it. But we have far too much "feel good, warm and fuzzy, hugs and balloons" legislation in place. Our curriculum is "dumbed" down (No Child Left Behind/Common Core) and it seems hard, because they aren't prepared on their way up, and this is true all the way through college.
> 
> One of my new administrators, who is from Texas by the way, has just started commenting on the lack of preparation our high school students are receiving from our middle school. Really? Because I've been saying it since my kids started middle school (my oldest is now 21). But I'm just a dumb uneducated parent without a cool degree that didn't have some published study from the world of academia tell me that despite all the indicators, things are actually just fine.
> 
> ...


We had the same problem in Texas before Ross Perot. In order to advance you must pass the TAKS (now STAR) test. It is given to every public school student in the state on the same day. The tests are controlled like clasified documents and graded by the state. Problem solved.

Folks need to do more than just drop their kid off at the door. It is you responsibility to insure your child learns. I did and my daughter graduated as the validictorian and went on to graduate from Baylor this year.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

My oldest, daughter is 28 and my youngest is 18 total of 5 children.

When I moved onto the ranch on 1991 I didn't have cable TV available and opted out of the fledgling satellite. So my children which were then 3-6 years old never had television, and so we spent the nights doing homework, playing board games, playing cards, reading books. I probably have the only 20 year olds in America that love to play cribbage, pinochle and Risk, haha.

We will be getting together this Christmas and I am betting my boys will try and get me into a game of Risk. Also they bitched and moaned about bucking hay in the fall the entire time they were growing up, now it is a fond memory that they bring up every chance they get.

Back on topic we home schooled them several years, and after I started making better money we sent them to private Christian education, just because home schooling was my wife's job and it was tedious. 

Anyway as of today ALL my 5 children have jobs, and 2 of them in manager jobs as they can read, write, and do complex arithmetic. They are well spoken, have savvy and good hygene, and not supprisingly none of them have cable TV, I guess they decided they could live without it.


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## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

I have a personal HATE towards public education. 

When in elementary school I was in the papers for being top kid in my grade. Not just in the school. But the COUNTY!

Middle school was hard. My brother passed away and I kinda just lived. Woke up, went to school, went home. I gave up basically. 

Toward end of middle school I was facing retention. I was 1 class away from being retained. That teacher let me do 1 large project and I had to do it in 24 hours to pass. I did it and passed to high school. 

Still gave up. I needed 70 credits to pass 9th grade. I got 35. Spent summer in summer school, made up some lost credits. 

Here's why I hate public schools. When I finally wanted to learn, I had to learn what THEY thought I needed to know. I'm the kind of person that reads ahead in a book. In class, when kids were reading aloud, I had already read that part and was a chapter ahead. 

So I started getting behind. I was bored. And yes there was a couple subject I needed help with. I was refused and kicked out of tutoring. 

So when a friend offered me a job at 16 at $400 a week, I took it. I was framing new houses. It was new, exciting, and challenging. I excelled and made a LOT of money. When I turned 18, I got a pay raise and made more money. 

Fast forward. I end up changing companies but still construction. Different phase, different altogether. 

So 7 years later, I own my home outright. I have a decent savings, decent morals and know that schooling isn't everything. 

I had a boss hire a college graduate. Didn't know a hole in the ground from his arse. I ended up training those guys. I've ran crews. You can be book smart all you want, but if you have no common sense, you're screwed. 

My high school didn't even have a shop. Wood, mechanic, or metal. I ended up taking theatre tech so I could build the sets and work with my hands. 

Life is what you make it. Education or no education, you have no limits. The sky is the limit. There are ways to thrive even without an education. 

Oh and if you met me, you wouldn't know I didn't graduate. I'm not some slack jawed yokel, I'm not a mouth breather, and I'm not a bum. Lazy maybe but not a lazy bum 

Oh and I did attend college to learn what I wanted. I paid for it out of my own pocket, did school work in the bin on my work lunch break. I had a 110% in all my classes


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

I assume they didn't teach you how to read and write, do basic math. Think how great this country would be if parents could chose to let their children go uneducated and roam the streets. Public education ain't perfect but imagine the country without it. Remember, the feral children will still grow up with the right to vote. Wonder who they will vote for.


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## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

roy said:


> I assume they didn't teach you how to read and write, do basic math. Think how great this country would be if parents could chose to let their children go uneducated and roam the streets. Public education ain't perfect but imagine the country without it. Remember, the feral children will still grow up with the right to vote. Wonder who they will vote for.


Nope. My mom as much as I don't like her, taught me to read. I was reading upside down at 3 years old. I spelled my brothers name at about the same age, before I learned to spell my own name  writing, I'm not sure. I remember at about 5, my brother and I would write short stories. We even had a binder we would draw in. 
As far as math, I did learn that at school. I was in a combo 3rd/4th grade class when I was in 3rd grade and was doing math at 4th grade level. That is one thing I attribute to schooling. Without it, I wouldn't know fractions or how to read a tape measure 

I'm glad I had the elementary teachers I did have. They taught to do "mental math" where you were encouraged to do the work in your head. Later in middle and high school, we had to show our work.

Interesting side note. In 11(?) grade the math teacher looked at how I did my work, and taught the class to do it that way


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## roy (May 25, 2013)

Good on your mom. Sounds like you had at least one good teacher. I had a couple, too. I hated school, dropped out and ended up in the Army. God punished me by making me a teacher.

What happens to kids who don't have a good mom. Mom is smokin' crack and don't have no time for teachin' her kids to read. Hell, she can't read. Our founding fathers thought education was very important and not just for the rich.


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## kevincali (Nov 15, 2012)

roy said:


> Good on your mom. Sounds like you had at least one good teacher. I had a couple, too. I hated school, dropped out and ended up in the Army. God punished me by making me a teacher.
> 
> What happens to kids who don't have a good mom. Mom is smokin' crack and don't have no time for teachin' her kids to read. Hell, she can't read. Our founding fathers thought education was very important and not just for the rich.


Nope. Mom was a tweeker. Probably still is just hides it better. Growing up, she weighed maybe 70 pounds with clothes on. That's why my brother and I were taken away. She remarried to an abusive guy, probably so she could have a steady fix. The guy beat my brother and I and we went into foster care until my Grampa stepped up, fought and took us in.

My mom probably would have been a great mom if she didn't have that habit. She did love her kids though.

Lets put it this way. 4th grade, I was caught with a knife in school. Mom came and got me, and in the school parking lot, handed it right back to me and said "don't get caught again."


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