# Started on My Off Grid Solar System Today



## Montana Rancher

Hey all

I have all the electronics for my new PV system and started installing them today. My solar panels are due in tomorrow, I have 12 x 240v panels to install on my garage roof for a 3000 watt system. here is the roof which is exactly south facing:









Just to remind people, my system is not intended to be an off grid system as I have too many modern convienences that I am not willing to give up yet. Although I do plan on replacing my electric clothes dryer with a LP powered one which will make this a almost off grid system if I can give up my microwave.

I started with assembling the "combiner box" which is where each string of solar panels goes before sending the amps to the charge controller.

I am doing a 48volt system so it takes 3 solar panels per circuit, that makes 4 x 15amp breakers, one for each set of 3 panels.









Here is a shot of the area that I am putting the charge controller, batteries, inverter. You can see my 2 chest freezers in the front, at the rear is my 4500w propane generator and on the wall at the rear is the charge controller and inverter









Here is a close up of the system, inverter, and (black) charge controller. The lower box is a consolidation point for all the wires (the larger open white box below the inverter), from this spot I can add generator feed, battery feed, output to the home system or to the power pole for a grid tied system. I highly recommend a combiner box for those that don't really know what they are doing, the labeling is so clear it is hard to mess up. The Charge Controller (black Outback box on the right) is the unit that takes the raw amperage from the solar panels and feeds it to the batteries. This is a MPPT controller which is the most efficient kind.









My inverter can do 220v which I need to run my 200 foot well 1/2 horse pump. It is a 4400 watt inverter (surge to about 8K) to start up the freezers and the pump and the refrigerator I plan to run on the system.

Here are my batteries, I have 8 x 8L16 Deka brand 6 volt batteries which should last about 10 years. They are not in place or wired up as I purchased these last year on a mega local sale for $215 each which is a freekin steal. Batteries need to be set up in an area where they have a vent to outside air because when the charge control equalizes the batteries they give off hydrogen that is very explosive. I am going to build a platform over the generator to keep the batteries with the required vent outside.









I am going to build the frame for the solar panels myself at my shop, I'll try to remember to take pictures of the process.

I am getting all my parts from :

Backwoods Solar Electric Systems

If you ask them, they will send you a really comprehensive book about how to set up a system for any budget.

I don't have any affiliation with the company but the prices are fair and the help seems to be really good.


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## budgetprepp-n

Hey if you don't mind take some pictures of brackets and wire hook ups and the small stuff that we never get to see.
Also any special sealers or hole fillers


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## HuntingHawk

As per the LP clothes dryer, I think you will find it uses LP for the heating but still needs electricity for the timer & the motor to spin the drum. Most combination dryers use 120VAC instead of 240VAC.


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## PalmettoTree

He has the power necessary to run the electronics and motor just not the heat.

I would use LP tankless hot water systems.


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## Montana Rancher

Here is an update, things are crazy for me in the summer with planting, irrigation, plus I'm helping 2 of my daughters put Laminate flooring in a 14x70 mobile home.

I purchased the metal locally using 3/16" stock both "L" shaped and straight bar, the price from the dealer for the rack I am building is $850 and I'll get the job done for about $300

I am putting up 12 panels each one is 39" x 66" and for my 48volt system I need to run them in series of 3, so I decided on building 4x racks that hold 3 panels each, here is a pic of me putting the first one on the roof:









I'm doing this all solo so the tractor loader takes a lot of the grunt work out of it, with 3 people we could have done this by hand as the racks are only about 80# of metal each.

I put 2x4 blocks on the corners of the racks when I put them on the roof to save the paint finish and make them easier to slide around:









Here is the attachment point, I drilled 7/16" holes in the roof and bolted them down and then spread a liberal amount of clear silicon both underneath the bracket when I placed it as well as around the edges and a liberal amount over the bolt. I've used this system before on my camper and it is a leak proof application.









Here I am installing the 2nd of 4 panels, I needed to avoid my septic tank cap so I couldn't put it straight on, but like I said they are not heavy racks so I just grunted it into position from there:









I didn't do any photographs of cutting the metal or welding it up as you either know how to do that or you don't. I have a metal band saw in my shop which is the coolest thing, so much better than a chop saw I cannot even start. I use a 175 Lincoln wire feed welder and a craftsman drill press. Other things that were really handy was my bench grinder, free standing vice, grinder, and some saw horses.

I put 2 coats of Rust oliem paint on each panel, not sure how it will hold up over time but it was cheap.

Each rack is held in place by a bracket on each end using 7/16" bolts into the roof and from the roof bracket to the panel rack itself. My thought was to make it possible to build "legs" so that I can increase the angle of the solar panels in the winter time so they will face the sun more directly.

For those that do not know here along the Canadian border the sun swings wildly from season to season. In the summer it is almost directly overhead and our nights are only 7 hours long. In the winter the sun moves far south and the angle of the panels needs to be adjusted up for maximum efficiency. In winter time we get about 7 hours of daylight so it helps to maximize your solar intake in the winter, that is when a off grid system will not hold up.

More to follow, I should have the racks done tomorrow, and the panels mounted within the next 4 days.


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## Prepadoodle

Nice.

Just out of curiosity, did you give any thought to mounting them on the ground? Will they be angled enough so the snow slides off by itself, or are you gonna have to get up there and sweep the snow off? Or do you have a really long handled broom?


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## Montana Rancher

Prepadoodle said:


> Nice.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, did you give any thought to mounting them on the ground? Will they be angled enough so the snow slides off by itself, or are you gonna have to get up there and sweep the snow off? Or do you have a really long handled broom?


Hello
Yes I did look into a ground mount, but they are even more expensive than the roof mounts, I was quoted $1500 for a 8 panel ground mount. It is true they are easier to move and position for maximum intake, but a book I read suggested for the extra money for the ground mount, just buy more panels and permanently fix them, it is a wash on total power (say 8 panels pointed correctly and 12 panels fixed are the same amperage) and so much less work.

I am directly behind a 9000 foot mountain which absorbs most of the snow in winter, it is unusual to get more than 4 inches a day and 30 inches a month here, and it melts off really fast. The big kahuna mountain can have 40 feet on top, which is my irrigation water in the spring.

With a long handled broom I could easily brush them off.


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## Inor

Very nice work Montana!

Please send some photos of your shop too. I love comparing shop photos.


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## Montana Rancher

Ok, panel racks were fully up yesterday, this picture was taken this morning and the pallet on the tractor is the solar panels









For those interested here is a label on the solar panels, made in USA, can't beat that.









Drilled a 1 3/4" hole in my new metal roof (Gah) and placed a 1 1/2" galvanized pipe "U" with a 5" extension out the bottom so nothing would blow up and get into my garage. This is where all the 10ga wires from each set of 3 panels I wire in series will enter my garage. All this will be under a solar panel and is sealed and resealed with silicon, I am confident it will hold up to weather.









Generous duct tape as I was working on this and wiring as the silicon was curing.


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## Montana Rancher

Wiring is straight forward, each panel has a positive and negative out with one being male and the other female. It is possible for an idiot to plug the two together and ruin the $300 panel or start a fire so you need to pay attention.

I am running 3 panels in series which means I am hooking the positive of the first panel to the negative of the 2nd panel, and the positive of the 2nd panel to the negative of the third panel.

This give me a positive and a negative connector left, which I will run to my "combiner box" where all the solar panel strings of 3 will come together.

The roll of wire is a 30 foot extension which I cut in half, the one end hooks to the bottom of the 3 solar panel outputs, and the other hooks to the top of the 3 solar panels and then I run them down the hole mentioned above to the "combiner box"









3 feet under the hole in my new roof is a combiner box, it is positioned directly overhead of my attic access panel so it is not only easy to wire, it is easy to access if I need to turn off the panels.









The Combiner box allows me to put each string of 3 panels on a 15amp breaker which could save the whole system in case of a short. Also it allows me to isolate each string of 3 using my volt meter to determine if there is a bad panel in the array by measuring the output of each string.

The glowing bulb on the right hand side of the box is a 300volt surge suppressor in case aliens attack of Obama flies overhead in AF1


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## Montana Rancher

Anyway here is my first solar panel mounted









And my home made retainer to hold the top of the first panel down, used throughout the system:









Each panel "locks" into a L shaped bracket on the bottom and is held with the above bolt/half washer on the top. So each string of 3 panels can be accessed, removed, replaced, without needing to disturb the other sets of panels.


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## Montana Rancher

So here is the panel array 2/3 done, below the red bucket is the entry point to the garage attic which is the last panel I will put in.









The completed job, from start of installation to end it was 4.5 hours solo. with 2 people it would be a 2 hour job.









And the satisfying window from my Outback charge controller









Tomorrow I will actually hook my 2 chest freezers to the system and take them off grid, I am jacked. I finished at 2pm and my system logged 1.7kw of power and fully recharged my 8x 6 volt batteries by the end of the day.

Just so you know I didn't take the day off, I got in my tractor, drove 30 minutes to a custom hay job and cut 9 acres of hay in the afternoon









It was a good cut, at $200 per ton for hay I'll make $1000 for 9 hours work.


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## HuntingHawk

Are the panel angles set for you longtitude?


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## Montana Rancher

In the summer they are very close, as winter progresses they will need to be raised to point further south. I have built in the ability to put in "arms" on the top mounts and raise the angle if I feel I need it.

My caveat is the freezers you saw in the battery/generator room are actually outside and in the winter time the consumption drops from about 3K a day down to 1.4k a day because (omg its colder in the winter)

So I am hoping I will not have to mess with the angle as when the weather gets colder it works for me in lowering my power consumption.

The issue in raising the angle of the panels is that it exposes the back of the panels to the north winds which here are the worst, and unless I back them it may take them right off the roof.


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## Montana Rancher

I actually have room to mount 3 more panels on my garage, I will seriously consider this as opposed to messing with changing the angle several times a year.


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## Inor

That is really NICE work MR! Consider yourself having received several "atta-boys" from me.

Please let us know how well they work over the coming weeks. (I am still working on ideas for the home we are building soon and alternative energy is one of them.)


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## HuntingHawk

Great thread MR. If you do the one more set of panels you can set that one set at a steeper angle just to help with winter charging which should eliminate the need for adjusting panel angles threw the year. Just food for thought.

I too used angle iron & welded up my own panel frames. But I scavenged bed frames from the dump to make mine.


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## HuntingHawk

My little 520watt system easily keeps a 5cuft chest freezer charged plus some power left over for lights & such.

Winter you will find a severe drop in charging not only due to as much as 30 degree difference in angle but half the sunlight hours.


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## HuntingHawk

I am doing a 48volt system so it takes 3 solar panels per circuit, that makes 4 x 15amp breakers, one for each set of 3 panels.

Wish you would explain the above. Are these 48VDC that you are wiring in parallel to keep the voltage the same & increase total amperage of the three panel string? Picture of the panel tag is too small for me to read.


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## Montana Rancher

HuntingHawk said:


> I am doing a 48volt system so it takes 3 solar panels per circuit, that makes 4 x 15amp breakers, one for each set of 3 panels.
> 
> Wish you would explain the above. Are these 48VDC that you are wiring in parallel to keep the voltage the same & increase total amperage of the three panel string? Picture of the panel tag is too small for me to read.


Here is a link from the company I purchased them from:

Backwoods Solar - Helios 250 Watt Mono Module * - Solar Modules - Products Backwoods Solar

Here is a break down of the stats (these are peak output)
Voc 37.8 is the peak voltage the panel will give you without a load, good for testing but not much else.
Vmmp 30.7 is the peak voltage put off under a load
Impp 8.14 is the peak amps put off by the panel

Obviously "Peak" is the perfect condition of which they don't always exist (like in the winter, overcast days, etc). So even though each 250watt panel is capable of putting of 30 volts DC that is peak which isn't always realized.

So they suggest 1 of these panels for a 12 volt system, yes on the peak day it will put out over 30 volts but on crappy days you can expect at least enough to power a 12volt system.

2 Panels are suggested for a 24 volt system, which COULD be 60 volts coming in on perfect days but even at 40% they can still charge batteries.

3 panels are suggested for a 48volt system which is 90 volts maxed out but reasonably easy to power the 48 volt system at 50% sunlight.

The 3x panels are wired in series so each panel "could" put off 30 volts each and the string of 3 could put off 90 volts.

Of course the charge controller takes whatever is coming in and tailors it to maximize the charge to the batteries dependent on the draw.

I hope that is clear as mud


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## Montana Rancher

Update Day 2, I DID get my 2 24 cubic foot freezers on the inverter today and the lights in the freezer room (100 watt incandescent).

I checked it several time today and as the temperature is around 90 at least 1 freezer was always running drawing 8-9 amps each time I checked it. (one freezer is newer which would explain the difference)

The charge controller was easily keeping up with the draw in the sunlight, let me explain what I know (grain of salt)

This is a MPPT charge controller, and when it is easily keeping up with the load it simply "floats" the batteries which is taking the sun and freezing my elk steaks.

If the sunlight isn't enough to keep everything going it would do a MPPT FLOAT which is a more high tech method of making use of all the available amps from the panels. 

I didn't get any MPPT signals except after the sun went down, at that point my panels were not putting off enough to compensate for the freezer draw.

I have 370 amp hour batteries, so at a 9 amp draw I can run the freezers for about 18 hours without going below the 50% threshold. So I am safe for the night and usually they run less as the temperature drops in the mountains here into the 50's, that makes the freezers run less.

I have 1 more piece of monitoring equipment to install which shows me battery status, I'll get that up in the next day or so (had to move my daughters furniture today and cut a few acres of hay). It will be interesting to see how long it takes in the morning to go from MPPT Floating to just plain floating which means the batteries are charged and the system is just keeping up with demand.


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## Prepadoodle

HuntingHawk,

As I understand it, he's running 3 panels in series per string and 3 strings in parallel (or was it 4?), which should yield 90 VDC max (under load) at just over 24 amps. Remember voltage adds in series circuits and current adds in parallel circuits.

Frankly, I'm a little disappointed he plans to sweep the snow off using a long handled broom. I was expecting him to use a surplus flamethrower or napalm.


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## Montana Rancher

Prepadoodle said:


> HuntingHawk,
> 
> As I understand it, he's running 3 panels in series per string and 3 strings in parallel (or was it 4?), which should yield 90 VDC max (under load) at just over 24 amps. Remember voltage adds in series circuits and current adds in parallel circuits.
> 
> Frankly, I'm a little disappointed he plans to sweep the snow off using a long handled broom. I was expecting him to use a surplus flamethrower or napalm.


Haha, of course it is not necessary as AL Gore will tell you global warming makes that obsolete.


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## HuntingHawk

9amp draw seems high for a chest freezer. Are you sure that isn't the surge amperage when it turns on? Or is 9amps what is being drawn to the inverter to power a chest freezer?


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## HuntingHawk

Off grid doesn't mean you aren't connected to commercial power but instead means your alternative energy system isn't fed to the commercial power grid.

Heaters & things with motors don't do well with solar as they draw alot of power. Unless its its a DC motor. So takes alot of panels & batteries. But small solar systems, mini systems if you will, do excellent in sheds, barns, etc for lighting. So even if commercial power is lost in those places you would still have lights.

Payback for a solar system really doesn't come from saved KWH off your electric bill. It come when you have some electric from your solar system when commercial power is lost. 
Years ago I tried to convince a friend to get a backup generator. He didn't want to spend the money. 2004 we had Francis come threw & lost electricity for 7 days. He lost several hundred dollars worth of meat in his chest freezer. When power was restored he restocked the chest freezer. Several days later we had hurricane Jeanne come threw & lost power for five days. And again he lost several hundred dollars worth of food. So having that backup generator to charge the batteries in your solar system is a smart thing.


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## budgetprepp-n

Man,, This is a nice set up makes my 300 watt setup look like a toy


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## HuntingHawk

Unless I'm missing something, three panels are connected in series to increase output voltage so amperage/wattage would be the same. So four strings of 240watt panels would make it basically a 960watt system at 48 volts.


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## Montana Rancher

HuntingHawk said:


> Unless I'm missing something, three panels are connected in series to increase output voltage so amperage/wattage would be the same. So four strings of 240watt panels would make it basically a 960watt system at 48 volts.


the "watt" rating is kind of confusing as we are actually using volts, so the panel produces 30 volts @ 8 amps with is roughly 240 watts.

There are 3 panels in series which at peak produces 90 volts at 8 amps

There are 4 sets of panels wired in parallel which keeps the 90 volts but the amps increase to 32.

Oh and the freezer draw was wrong, my new one purchased last year draws 5 amps, the 20 year old one (still energy star rated) uses the 8-9 amps. So far they haven't been running together but I am confident the system can handle it.

My next step is to fun a lead into the house and get the 220volt well pump hooked up. I am prepared to replace the pump but I'd like to try running it as is.


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## HuntingHawk

Proper inverter to run a 240VAC well pump will be very expensive as it must be two syncronized 120VAC legs.


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## Montana Rancher

HuntingHawk said:


> Proper inverter to run a 240VAC well pump will be very expensive as it must be two syncronized 120VAC legs.


Backwoods Solar - Magnum 4400W 48V Parallel Inverter Backwoods Solar

I got the 240v inverter for the well and to fun my welders for repairs, another of my SHTF occupations, if my daughter makes it here from Denver she is a army certified welder as well.


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## Prepadoodle

8-9 amps (or even 5 amps) for a freezer does seem high, but only if we're talking about amperage at 120VAC.

I'm guessing those numbers represent battery draw at 48VDC. The actual power being used by the freezers would then be less than 2 amps at 120VAC for the newer one and less than 3 amps at 120VAC for the older one. This is a reasonable power consumption, especially when you add in the 100W light.

Or no?


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## HuntingHawk

That would have been my guess on the chest freezer power draw also.


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## HuntingHawk

That inverter should run your well pump as well as handle most welding jobs. Don't forget that you can gang batteries together to stick weld with.


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## Montana Rancher

Prepadoodle said:


> 8-9 amps (or even 5 amps) for a freezer does seem high, but only if we're talking about amperage at 120VAC.
> 
> I'm guessing those numbers represent battery draw at 48VDC. The actual power being used by the freezers would then be less than 2 amps at 120VAC for the newer one and less than 3 amps at 120VAC for the older one. This is a reasonable power consumption, especially when you add in the 100W light.
> 
> Or no?


I really didn't know what to expect but I am assuming the state of the art electronics are giving me accurate readings and yes those amps are from a 48v system so you do the math.

I have seen youtube videos of people using batteries to arc weld but I will have to assume my welders using 240v will be more efficient.

Good feedback, I have had to look things up to address questions which means I am learning as I go


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## HuntingHawk

The stick welding, if you are going to DC weld using batteries would probably be more efficient. You would have to take DC voltage from the batteries to an inverter to change to AC to run the welder then the welder change the AC to DC. Each step would be more power losses. AC welding you would need to go threw the inverter.


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## HuntingHawk

One thing I didn't see on the Magnum inverter to run your well pump is whether its 50 or 60Hz. Its its 50, don't get it as it will damage your pump.


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## HuntingHawk

I looked it up for you & it is 60Hz so you should be good to go.


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## Montana Rancher

HuntingHawk said:


> The stick welding, if you are going to DC weld using batteries would probably be more efficient. You would have to take DC voltage from the batteries to an inverter to change to AC to run the welder then the welder change the AC to DC. Each step would be more power losses. AC welding you would need to go threw the inverter.


I disagree, it is unreasonable to think that straight DC voltage would be the exact combination of volts vs amps compared to a welder designed for the exact application. There is a huge adjustability for stick welders to adjust the size of stick and the material being welded.


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## HuntingHawk

But on the other hand, you can use three 12VDC batteries for using 36VDC to weld, or 4 batteries for 48VDc, etc.


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## PaulS

With a stick welder you don't adjust voltage - it stays between 25 and 50 volts DC. You change the amperage to suit the size of rod and thickness of metal. Using batteries you just select the rod so you don't burn through whatever you are welding. With an AC stick welder (buzz box) you adjust only the amps as well. If you are using a good wire-feed welder you adjust the feed speed, the amps and the voltage for the job you are doing.


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## Prepadoodle

Montana, yeah, you are in the ballpark for your freezers.

I looked at a few 24 cubic foot freezers and they average about 580 kW/year, which is roughly 1.6 kW per day. If they run 20 minutes per hour (which seems reasonable in a 90 degree room), they would use 1.6 kW by running 8 hours per day (20 on, 40 off = 1/3 duty cycle, and 1/3 of 24 is 8)

If they use 1.6 kW in 8 hours, they are drawing 200 watts when running because 1600 / 8 = 200. Add the 100W bulb and you get 300W, and since I=P/E, this comes out to 2.5 amps at 120VAC.

300W at 48VDC would be 300/48, or 6.25 amps. Your freezers probably don't draw exactly 1.6kW/day, and probably don't run exactly 8 hours a day, so I call this close enough for government work.

Hey, you said do the math, so I did, LOL.

Edited to add: By the way, I verified this because if your meter was reading on the AC side, you would be drawing nearly 3 times more power than you thought from your batteries. I am now fairly certain that your meter is reading the DC side, so your available stored energy calculations are spot on. I didn't want you to go to bed and wake up to find your batteries down to 10%, which could harm them.


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## HuntingHawk

JMO, if it were my system I would be working on that extra set of panels & set their angle for winter. That would ensure atleast one set of panels giving the batteries some good charge during the shortened hours of winter.


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## HuntingHawk

I think most people using alternative energy use amps or amphours (AH). Reason is the batteries are rated by their power in AH. I monitor my solar power outputs in amps as that tells me when I need to adjust their angle. And my controller tells me percent of battery charge. So I can even tell if there is a problem such as a bad contact.


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## Montana Rancher

Sorry for the slow update, its haying season and I've taken a couple custom cutting jobs and continuing to work on the system.

I have my battery monitor installed inside the house now









This beauty not only allows me to see how many amps are being used at the moment but it also shows me if the batteries are charged and at what percentage. This picture was taken at dusk, this morning I had 89% battery life left after running the 2 freezers all night.

I also got the AC panel run into my utility room downstairs from the inverter. So far I haven't hooked anything up to the panel, I just got the lead run into the basement and the circuit breakers installed. Next I will put the 220volt pump on this panel and I have several breakers to run 110v items like my Natural Gas stove and possibly my refrigerator.


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## HuntingHawk

Before trying the well pump, I suggest turning off or disconnecting everything else from your solar system. The motor is a large surge to start it & will do a large drain on your batteries each time it turns on. JMO


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## Montana Rancher

HuntingHawk said:


> Before trying the well pump, I suggest turning off or disconnecting everything else from your solar system. The motor is a large surge to start it & will do a large drain on your batteries each time it turns on. JMO


Sorry ignored your suggestion and hooked up the well pump yesterday, the minute I hit the breaker the pump went on and drew about 40 amps until the pressure tank filled (about 20 seconds) .

After checking the battery level this morning 85% I decided to add my rather large refrigerator today and ran a special 120v to the kitchen. I plugged the frig into the system around 2pm and at the end of a very sunny day the batteries were at full charge. (FYI my frige uses 1.5 kw a day normally)

A side bar 1 of my 4 sets of 3 panels are offline right now, my vendor says I may have a blown diode in that set so I am running all of this off of 3x 750 watt strings of panels.

Another sidebar the days here are full sun, the guvment isn't putting up any chemtrails.


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## Montana Rancher

Ok, 
Today I figured out the problem with the 4th set of 3 panels, a wiring problem easily fixed and now all 4 are online.

At 4 pm the batteries showed 95% charged running a 20 and 24 cubic foot freezers, 220volt well pump and my large refrigerator. It was a long hot sunny day and my panels are exactly the right angle for summertime so I am determining that this system may not run everything in the winter time. 

The freezers are outside a will be drawing a lot less energy in the winter so it's still up in the air, since I have the roo, I will probably add an additional 3 panels.


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## Prepadoodle

Just out of curiosity, what's your charge state early in the morning?


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## Montana Rancher

Prepadoodle said:


> Just out of curiosity, what's your charge state early in the morning?


I'm not sure I understand your question, how many amps do I get?


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## Prepadoodle

No, what's your battery level in the morning. What percent of full charge is remaining after running all that stuff all night?

Edited to add:

The reason I'm curious is that you seem to be prioritizing your system exactly the same way I would; refrigeration and well first, lighting and other uses as secondary. If I ever find my new home (I'm looking) solar power will be one of my highest priorities. Since you listed details of your system, I'm finding your posts to be a valuable source of real world info.


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## HuntingHawk

One good thing though is that your highest power draw which is the well pump wouldn't be used much at night.


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## HuntingHawk

If you make a rain collection & storeage system that water can be used for a host of items like watering a garden which will take some of the load of the well pump & so the solar system. The little gardening I do, it has averaged dropping my electric bill 100KWH per month. Even better would be a simple gravel filter & use the rain water to flush the toilet as that is roughly 5gal per flush.


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## HuntingHawk

December will be the real test of your solar system when the panel angles are 50% off & 50% less hours of sunlight.


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## Montana Rancher

HuntingHawk said:


> December will be the real test of your solar system when the panel angles are 50% off & 50% less hours of sunlight.


I have a LOT of water in the summer so the well will not be used for that.

For review I get 220 GPM off a gravity feed irrigation system that produces about 70 psi.

So water in the summer is a mute point, in fact I could generate additional watts with a generator but it isn't really needed in the summer.

My battery level in the morning is 80% and has been stable there for several days, a little up or down but never below 80

I am going to hook my small air conditioner up in the next couple of days, my computations are if the battery reaches 100% during the hot summer days I might as well use that power to cool the house down.

When the temp outside reaches 95 degrees, my house is in the low 80's, I use the AC to get it down to about 76 which is about the same as my daylight basement.

I don't want to walk around naked (trust me neither do you) but at least it is reasonably comfortable.


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## HuntingHawk

Small AC draws a lot of power. I have test run mine on my solar system. Mine is 10,000BTU & my decision is to set up a separate system just to run the AC as I don't want to run the batteries out of power running the AC & not have power to run the chest freezer.

Right now you are looking at needing more batteries &/or more panels. If your batteries are down to 80% in the mornings & you have an overcast day more panels won't help.


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## livinitup0

I didnt see it asked, but would you mind giving us an idea of how much a whole system like this costs and what the max load is on your battery bank?


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## Prepadoodle

Montana Rancher said:


> I am going to hook my small air conditioner up in the next couple of days, my computations are if the battery reaches 100% during the hot summer days I might as well use that power to cool the house down.


Hell yes. If you're producing the power after your batteries are topped off, might as well use it for something.

If your batteries read 80% in the morning, you are using about 3,550 watt/hours during the night. (battery capacity 370 Ah, 370Ah X 20% = 74Ah, 74Ah X 48VDC = 3553watts) If your daytime load is twice as high, you're looking at about 11kWh total load per day.

It will be interesting to see how your system performs in the winter. Yeah, you will be generating far less power, but the freezers and fridge won't have to work nearly as hard either, and might not come on at all some days. If your winter load is half that (5.5kWh/day) you might not produce enough when you consider the shorter days and inefficiencies due to sun angle, but your actual winter demand might be 1/3 or even 1/4 as much, so it's hard to say. You might have to heat the refrigerator to keep it from freezing, LOL.

Good stuff Montana, thanks!


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## Montana Rancher

Aye
If I didn't mention it before my 20 and 24cf chest freezers are outside, in the summer they run all the time but that is only about 4 months a year and then it gets cold and colder and they run a LOT less.

I also keep my house at 55 degrees in the winter except for about 7 hours a day when we are actually at home then I pump it up to 61 degrees do my wife can shower and when she gets home we can eat dinner with less than a snow suit on =)

I think I will be able to run my 2 outside freezers, my one inside refrigerator and the well in the winter as my power consumption goes down on the refrigerator and especially on the 2 outside freezers.

I will keep you updated, but at this point we are going into the hot season so it will be October before we see a real drop in the temperature. Currently it is in the 90's in the daytime and about 50 during the night time.

Sorry if my reply was late, been cutting hay recently but my water rights are called out now so this is my last cutting.


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## HuntingHawk

For review I get 220 GPM off a gravity feed irrigation system that produces about 70 psi.

That is more then enough for a water turbine. If you are running a 4" line & reduce to 2" at the water turbine you will about double the PSI & its the PSI you want for running a water turbine.


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## Prepadoodle

HH, necking the line down with a nozzle won't increase its pressure. If reducing the opening increased pressure, you would get infinite pressure if you capped the end. (Opening size 0)

In a gravity feed system, the water's pressure is related to head: the weight of the column of water above it. (To get 70 psi water via gravity feed, you need 160 feet of head) Remember, we are talking pounds per _square inch_ of pressure. A 2" line has less square inches than a 4" line, but the water in the 2" section will be at the same pressure.

This is why pressure washers always contain a special high-pressure pump. You have to put work into the system to increase the pressure.


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## HuntingHawk

Then explain please why with a tapered fire nozzle which is a reduction that pressure is increased.


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## Prepadoodle

If you can maintain the flow rate, you can increase the velocity, which increases the kinetic energy of the water. It squirts farther because it's going faster. In a city water system, there is often a pump somewhere up the line, but many fire trucks use high pressure pumps to boost the pressure locally, then nozzle it to increase velocity too.

Edited to add: Google "Bernoulli principle" for a more in-depth explanation.


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## HuntingHawk

There was a Brit series of two engineers that did eco friendly stuff & on one show they used a fire nozzle to increase the rpm of a water turbine.


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## Prepadoodle

Here, I found you something that might make it a little easier to understand...

US Department of Energy - Ask A Scientist - Water Hose Pressure


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## HuntingHawk

Planet Mechanics was the series.


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## alterego

First let me say this is a great thread thank you for taking the time to put the pictures in here.

Second, how much did all of this cost?

A break down would be much appreciated,

$$ Framing
$$ Panels
$$ Wiring
$$ Batteries
$$ inverter
$$ Monitors controls


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## alterego

This is a realy dumb question but I am going to ask.
I see a lot of panels now that are 350 watt, you used 240 watt, is there any problem with adding high watt panel to your system when you make an upgrade?

I.E. having your original install of 240 watt, adding 4 350 watt.


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## Prepadoodle

HH, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I watched that show (Planet Mechanics, episode 3, Water Wars), and here's what's going on there:

They had 80 m of head, which is about 260 feet. If they were to cap off the end of the hose and install a pressure gauge, they would see about 110 psi, which is the static pressure developed by the weight of 260 feet of water.

When they open the hose all the way, the pressure drops due to the friction in the hose. The nozzle they hand held looks to be about 2" in diameter, and if the pressure didn't drop, it would produce 110 psi X the area of the opening (pi X diameter) or about 690 pounds of force. (2 X 3.14 X 110 = 690) One guy can't hold back this much force, so it's obvious that the pressure dropped. If he was holding back 125 pounds of force, the pressure dropped to 20 psi. (because 2 X 3.14 X 20 = 125) Still enough to knock him over, but nowhere near 690 pounds.

As you can see, the nozzle didn't increase the pressure, it decreased it.

When a liquid moves in a pipe, it produces friction which lowers the pressure. A big nozzle lets the water move faster, so more friction is produced and more pressure is lost.

A smaller nozzle would have slowed down the flow in the hose, generating less friction and thus producing less of a pressure drop. Yeah, they could have doubled the 20 psi with a smaller nozzle, but can't ever exceed the original 110 psi without adding a pump. (If they had straightened the hose, they would have seen more pressure out of any size nozzle because they would be reducing the friction, but would still be unable to exceed the static pressure)

A typical fire engine can pump 2000 gpm at 300 psi. Take a close look at the side of one sometime. They use huge hoses to connect to the hydrant, then much smaller hoses to fight the fire. Their pumps use centrifugal force to boost the pressure and guarantee a high flow rate. Moving this volume of water through a small hose gives it a high velocity which gives it enough kinetic energy to travel long distances.

If you wanna talk about this some more, open a micro-hydro thread and I'll be happy to answer whatever questions I can.


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## HuntingHawk

You are talking to someone that was a volunteer firefighter for 10 years. An engine takes the low pressure water from the hydrant & reduces the output volume but increases pressure.


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## Prepadoodle

Then you should know how this stuff works. And I, as an engineer, should know that pi X the diameter isn't the area, it's the circumference. I should have said pi X the square of the radius to get area.  

This changes the numbers but not the principal. The 2 inch nozzle would be 3.14 X 1^2 X 110 = 340 pounds, so I would guess the nozzle dropped the pressure to somewhere around 40 or 50 psi. Believe as you will, I'm not gonna hijack Montana's thread to argue basic physics with you.

By the way Mr Fireman, a fire engine outputs the exact same volume as it intakes.


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## HuntingHawk

Back on topic, kinda. If you have a gravity feed water system producing 70PSI you have plenty to run a water turbine. Even if you just run a water turbine in the summer it should produce enough to run your chest freezers.


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## Montana Rancher

Yes I could easily run a turbine but when the water is running my solar system is putting out max and I don't need it. In a pinch I could easily get a car alternator whipping out electricity like nobodies business but as my solar system is set up for winter power, by summertime my intake is double my consumption.


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## Montana Rancher

An update

This is August and my 3000 watt solar system is producing enough power to work my 2 chest freezers, my well pump, and my refrigerator with no problem at all, I decided to run a 11k btu air conditioner in the afternoon because the solar system is topped off and keeping the house at 75 degrees is really nice.

I ordered 3 more 250w panels to install on the rest of my garage because they will fit and the cost is nominal, I built the rack this week and will be installing it this month. Not a lot of pressure here as the addition will be useless until the sun power drops in the winter.

In the winter time I have 2 advantages, first my freezers are outside my house and will consume a lot less power (summer consumption 4000kw a day, winter time 1.5kw a day)

2. My maximum temperature setting in the house in the winter time is 61 degrees, which means my forced air heater runs about 75% less than a house set at 72 degrees
This helps not only to save money on heating but my refrigerator doesn't run as much with the temp being 10+ degrees below normal

My water heater, stove and forced air 85% efficiency natural Gas furnace, which means my budget billing is $59 per month, i.e. $720 a year living 140 miles from the Canadian border.

If you learn to live at a temperature lower than you are used to, you will adapt to the lower temperature and eventually learn to accept it.


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## Montana Rancher

New Update
We are nearing the equinox which here means about 7 hours of actual sunlight per day.

I haven't adjusted the solar panels to the south, they are still at their basic 45 degrees summertime setting.

I did add another 3 x 250w solar panels so my total potential is 3750 watts, although the 3 I added are shaded after 2pm

I am still running all the appliances I intended, and I will add my forced air NG furnace to the system very shortly, as when it is really cold, my outside freezers hardly run at all, and I have excess power in the system and need to burn it up.

The weak spot is warm (say 30 degrees) cloudy days as the temperature is warm enough to cycle my 2x chest freezers several times a day, plus my well pump, plus my refrigerator.

I did take my refrigerator off the solar system when that happened so I wouldn't have to supplement with my propane powered generator.

So at this point I could go off the grid, but I will not. The reason for "not" going off the grid is that I need some things PRE-SHTF that I won't need later, like my laser printer and 24-7 internet to run my ebay business. Plus it is nice not having to coordinate running the clothes washer when the generator is running.

Temperature here is currently 1 degree above zero, haha for you in the cold states, If I had to run my forced air furnace on the solar system it would be iffy, but I have a really nice wood stove to supplement so I should be fine.


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## Inor

Thanks for the update Rancher. I hope this question is not too forward, but I have been fascinated with your solar project ever since you started posting on it. Now that it has been running for a few months, roughly how much has it cut your electric bills?

Also, how do you keep the snow from accumulating on the panels?

Oh yeah, I noticed back home it was -22 today. But I left for Palo Alto, CA yesterday afternoon. It is below freezing here at night, but not by much. I think it may have gotten down to around 28 last night. Poor Mrs Inor.


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## Montana Rancher

haha
I live in a state that EXPORTS" kilowatts so our power is very cheap

Last year I was using 20KW a day and that is down to 12KW a day, 

So I am saving about .... 35 cents a day or $10 a month off my power bill

My dad who lives next door laughs at my investment, but IMO I will be selling recharged batteries for the price of a loaf of bread in the near future.

Solar is not a investment into the future unless there is NO FUTURE left.

Also, we got about 3" of snow today, I have a shop broom which is about 30 inches wide, and I put a 10 foot PVC pipe as an extension (using my favorite fix-all duct tape) so from ground level I can sweep the snow off the panels within a few minutes, I am doing this twice a day.

Yes it isn't a good investment unless you believe ...
1. there is a chance power will not be available
2. power prices will exceed what normal people can pay

As I am a prepper I realize both 1 and 2 could happen then cost is ....

wait for it...

....

Priceless

haha


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## oddapple

Excellent thread - I was surprised you had to unhook the fridge, but I suppose you will have that solved soon. The freezers/refrigeration are the main thing to me. I have gotten by with a wood stove and a light bulb, but no fridge hurts.
I think, tho easier said than done, you might figure how to add one of those little room mate fridges just for vital drugs and cultures. That way they're cleaner and you even have room for what the medic living out can't store. Nice job on the set up too.


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## budgetprepp-n

This is a great thread,,,,,,,,I think every prepper should have some kind of solar set up even if it is a small one.
Just even one 50 to 100 watt panel and one deep cycle battery to run a few led lights and maybe a radio. 
Even just one fully charged wally world deep cycle battery will give enough power for lights all night.


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## MikeyPrepper

Love the thread


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## HuntingHawk

If running the frig is a bit much, you can freeze water jugs outside or in a chest freezer & put them in the frig using the frig as an ice cooler.

Another thing to consider on a solar system is when commercial power is lost froma storm. You still have some power & can top off the batteries with a generator when needed.


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## Montana Rancher

I have a 4500 watt propane powered generator hooked up into the system but so far haven't had to use it, but I am still taking my refrigerator off the system about 6-8 days a month so I don't have to.

In a real grid down situation I would have to run the Generator a couple hours a day, but with the grid down I won't be worried about my laser printer, desktop computers, microwave oven, and all the other voltage demands I have onsite.

My biggest concern is my freezers and my fresh water from my well, other than that it is all pretty easy.


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## Montana Rancher

Winter Solstice

Ok, it isn't here yet but it is close and I may get distracted.

My 3750w solar system still pointed at 45 degrees north is running my 2x chest freezers, my 1x 240 volt well (200 feet deep) and my reasonably new refrigerator about 90% of the time.

There have been cloudy days where I have taken the refrigerator offline to keep the batteries above 50% but that could have easily been offset by an hour or 2 of generator during the day.

I don't like to figure on generator time as I think it will upset my opsec. 

On the other hand I could have unplugged my 2 freezers and opted to run the refrigerator with that extra power and probably I would not have any problems.

Or I could have drawn down the batteries below 50% and done fine as well.

My thoughts are that not running the generator will be a better choice than keeping everything running at 100% for OPSEC reasons.

I am happy to know that for the majority of the month I can run everything without a footprint at all.

BTW
I went elk hunting with my 79 year old dad, we got 3 cow elk in 4 days and I ground 174 pounds of elk burger, besides roasts, steaks, backstraps, etc.

Sucks to be me.


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