# Manual Air Exchange devices in bunkers



## survival

I've seen them, don't know what they are called, but they are manual without electricity, where you rotate/crank them to exchange air. Can someone pinpoint exactly what these are called for me?


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## survival

The hand crank seen here in red... thanks Lucky Jim for the photo.


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## rickkyw1720pf

Utah Shelter Systems - Because Survival Is The Highest Priority


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## survival

Great find, now I'm wondering about the $50K price tag on the complete set unless they sell the VA150 in a standalone configuration. I'm going to look around to see if there is just a manual one without all the batteries, blast proof, emp protection etc. Just a old 1980's version that someone might have for sale. Thanks for finding this.


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## rickkyw1720pf

survival said:


> Great find, now I'm wondering about the $50K price tag on the complete set unless they sell the VA150 in a standalone configuration. I'm going to look around to see if there is just a manual one without all the batteries, blast proof, emp protection etc. Just a old 1980's version that someone might have for sale. Thanks for finding this.


I found that many of the old shelters used a crank forge blower, I don't know who still sells them. 
FORGE BLOWER MODEL NO 400 ~ Hand Crank ~ Champion ? on eBay!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XZ7DGPJEqUg/S70CTRe2_xI/AAAAAAAAARU/6N6AxYVGMAE/s1600/IMG_0003.JPG


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## survival

rickkyw1720pf said:


> I found that many of the old shelters used a crank forge blower, I don't know who still sells them.
> FORGE BLOWER MODEL NO 400 ~ Hand Crank ~ Champion ? on eBay!
> 
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XZ7DGPJEqUg/S70CTRe2_xI/AAAAAAAAARU/6N6AxYVGMAE/s1600/IMG_0003.JPG


This was exactly what I was looking for. Spot on! Thank you!


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## rickkyw1720pf

@ Survival
Found a company that still sells them.
Centaur Forge Hand Crank Blower-Centaur Forge


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## SOCOM42

If you are going to run a blower, you need to get filters for it and you need a exhaust port somewhere for the air to flow freely.

The exhaust port needs a flapper type valve on it to prevent back flow.

Let me expand upon this.

If you are intending to use a manual blower from a forge, it is better to use it in the exhaust mode.

Its configuration is not too easy to modify. It will however bolt right up so to speak in the exhaust mode.


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## rickkyw1720pf

survival said:


> I've seen them, don't know what they are called, but they are manual without electricity, where you rotate/crank them to exchange air. Can someone pinpoint exactly what these are called for me?


@Survival
I got interest about what type of blower to use as it seems almost all the companies that made hand crank blowers went out of business except for the one I mentioned above or get an old one from EBAY.
Notice the blower this company that make NBC air systems use.
Welcome to NBC Air Systems
looks a lot like this.
Centaur Forge Hand Crank Blower-Centaur Forge

Just looking around I really think you could make a complete NBC filter system for under $500 There are a multitude of HEPA filters available and if you use a common furnace filter in front of it, it should last a long time. The one way flapper valves Socom42 mentioned can be made easily out of scrap material. There also are many types of 12 or 120 volt blowers that could be used with your system for when power is available.


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## Gallo Pazzesco

I saw one, one time, which worked on a bicycle system. Wish I could find it now. I've always wanted to try building one. It was built on the old exercise bicycle principle using air foils for wind resistance to provide an indoor exercise experience. Instead, the airflow off the turbine that was the rear wheel was piped into a duct system that circulated air in and out of the shelter.

It was nifty as heck, I just wish I had saved it when I saw it.


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## Gallo Pazzesco

survival said:


> The hand crank seen here in red... thanks Lucky Jim for the photo.
> 
> View attachment 1052


That's actually not the one you want to go with if you are talking about intake vents. That one can be easily popped off and smoke throw down the pipe in an effort to smoke you out.

The one you want to go with, at least the ones we used, are steel, welded, galvanized two inch pipe bent in a hook, or candy cane shape, with the intake buried in pea gravel inside of rabbit wire. If I can get home tomorrow when it is light I can try to take a picture, or perhaps draw a diagram tonight to explain it better.


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## Gallo Pazzesco

Okay, I found a decent representation even though this does not illustrate installation and it does not show the blast valves, (over pressure values). But if you can imagine the long end leading to the inside of your shelter, and the short end bending back into a box of #57 washed stone (which is where the intake sets) which allows air to flow between the stones, then a layer of pea gravel, ground cloth, then sand or soil. You can plant whatever above it, which keeps it concealed, all the while still allowing air flow between the stone. It also eliminates the need for rain covers.

There are actually shelter vent pipes, specifically designed and produced for shelter builders:


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## ozo

If you just want to move a lot of air in a small amount of time,
you can easily make an air handler from an old, used HVAC fan.
You can find them easily, if you are polite, at almost any
heating/cooling company.
The physics of operation are very simple, and with a tiny
amount of your ingenuity, you can adapt it to your need.
You can even incorporate filtration.
You can power it by hand, by bicycle,.....
These 'squirrel-cage' fans move lots of air, even the small ones.


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## ozo

There was a time that blowers for coal forges were
were almost found in every rural garage.
Most have been collected......and sold as antiques.
Now, they are very pricey.
They also move a lot of air......but they also make a
light siren sound when you get em going.......
and if you have ever used one.....you found out very
quickly......if you let go of the handle, it doesn't stop, and
will rack you in the hand or......


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## Lucky Jim

As an alternative if there's room for a bike in there it can be hooked up to anything such as ventilating system. battery recharger etc, check the bottom pic-


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## jrry660

rickkyw1720pf said:


> @ Survival
> Found a company that still sells them.
> Centaur Forge Hand Crank Blower-Centaur Forge


I see the forge hand crank blower, but how do you rig it to be an air intake for a bunker?


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## Kauboy

jrry660 said:


> I see the forge hand crank blower, but how do you rig it to be an air intake for a bunker?


This thread is 10 years old, you appear to be using a stock avatar photo, and haven't started an introduction thread.
Humor me...
What is 3 + four minus 1 less than six?


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## justinsane

ozo said:


> If you just want to move a lot of air in a small amount of time,
> you can easily make an air handler from an old, used HVAC fan.
> You can find them easily, if you are polite, at almost any
> heating/cooling company.
> The physics of operation are very simple, and with a tiny
> amount of your ingenuity, you can adapt it to your need.
> You can even incorporate filtration.
> You can power it by hand, by bicycle,.....
> These 'squirrel-cage' fans move lots of air, even the small ones.


Best if it's belt drive because then the fan has its own mounting and bearings, you'd just need to divise a drive pulley. Belt drives are harder to find these days, back in the mid to late 1990s when I was doing HVAC we replaced quite a few furnaces/air handlers that were belt drive, can't recall the last one I saw, but since you don't need a motor that's helpful, make sure you tell them blown motor is OKAY.


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## jrry660

Kauboy said:


> This thread is 10 years old, you appear to be using a stock avatar photo, and haven't started an introduction thread.
> Humor me...
> What is 3 + four minus 1 less than six?


7-1 is equal to six


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## Back Pack Hack

3 + 4 - 1 < 6 is not a solvable equation.


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## Kauboy

Back Pack Hack said:


> 3 + 4 - 1 < 6 is not a solvable equation.


Try again...
"three plus four" minus "one less than six"
(3 + 4) - (6 - 1)
It's a word problem designed to outsmart a bot.
It works a bit too well, it seems.


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## Kauboy

jrry660 said:


> 7-1 is equal to six


Not quite...
Why did you revive the thread? Why did you pick a random stock photo for your avatar?
You've not convinced me yet.


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## Back Pack Hack

Kauboy said:


> Try again...
> "three plus four" minus "one less than six"
> (3 + 4) - (6 - 1)
> It's a word problem designed to outsmart a bot.
> It works a bit too well, it seems.


Try brushing up on the Order of Mathematic Operations.


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## Kauboy

Back Pack Hack said:


> Try brushing up on the Order of Mathematic Operations.


I'm fully versed. Been teaching it to my kids for the passed two years.
Try using critical thinking and word problem solving skills next time, and you'll be able to properly form the equation before solving. (identifying the need for parenthesis to know which portions to solve first)


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## Back Pack Hack

Kauboy said:


> I'm fully versed. Been teaching it to my kids for the passed two years.
> Try using critical thinking and word problem solving skills next time, and you'll be able to properly form the equation before solving. (identifying the need for parenthesis to know which portions to solve first)


*Charlie's Rule.*

It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say. If by chance you are an instructor, it doesn't say what you have been saying, and _if you're the author, it doesn't say what you intended it to say_.

Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, don't ask anyone what is says and don't think it says what you want it to say.

Go back and read it again and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time. If you don't like what it says, then get involved and try to change it. In the process, you might find out that what it actually said.


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## Kauboy

Back Pack Hack said:


> *Charlie's Rule.*
> 
> It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say. If by chance you are an instructor, it doesn't say what you have been saying, and _if you're the author, it doesn't say what you intended it to say_.
> 
> Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, don't ask anyone what is says and don't think it says what you want it to say.
> 
> Go back and read it again and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time. If you don't like what it says, then get involved and try to change it. In the process, you might find out that what it actually said.


Odd reference for making up an excuse for the fact that you injected yourself into a bot test, misunderstood a word problem, and couldn't solve it.
It said exactly what I intended. It was to be interpreted as a HUMAN would read it, not a bot, and thus a strict analytical resolution would not result in the correct answer. That's why it's a bot test.
But please, continue to make excuses...


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## Back Pack Hack

Maybe you should apply some of your much-acclaimed 'critical thinking skill' and actually read it and try to understand what I'm saying.

But if you wish to avoid doing so, even after I highlighted the most important section for you, I'll understand.


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## Kauboy

Back Pack Hack said:


> Maybe you should apply some of your much-acclaimed 'critical thinking skill' and actually read it and try to understand what I'm saying.
> 
> But if you wish to avoid doing so, even after I highlighted the most important section for you, I'll understand.


As I specifically noted, "it said exactly what I intended".
Your misunderstanding is a cop-out.

I'll walk you though it, if I must, and prove you indeed could solve it if you applied critical thinking.

What is one less than six?


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## Back Pack Hack

Kauboy said:


> As I specifically noted, "it said exactly what I intended".
> Your misunderstanding is a cop-out.
> 
> I'll walk you though it, if I must, and prove you indeed could solve it if you applied critical thinking.
> 
> What is one less than six?


Try again. You're totally missing the point. Would you like for me to spell it out for you?


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## Kauboy

Back Pack Hack said:


> Try again. You're totally missing the point. Would you like for me to spell it out for you?


Since you chose to inject yourself into a conversation you played no part it, and have continued to make excuses for your personal misunderstanding, I'd like you to answer the question below.
What is one less than six?

You see, the entire point of the original question, written exactly as I intended to write it, was to see if a bot, which could easily be programmed to solve a standard equation, would indeed attempt to solve it in the standard way. However, attempting to do so would result in the exact equation you derived, and you claimed to be unsolvable. It's specifically designed to NOT be solvable that way, but rather requires human interpretation to derive the correct equation. You attempted to solve it in the same way a bot would. That would be a worthless bot test if it could be resolved in such a manner. Get it?
This is what currently separates us from machines. We can interpret. It was presented as a solvable equation when I asked for it to be solved. A human would start with the assumption that the equation is solvable. If they arrived at some derivation of the equation that was not solvable, they would reassess and try again. You instead wanted to play a game of one-upmanship in a conversation you weren't part of, and declared it unsolvable in an attempt to malign me. In doing so, you've embarrassed yourself and can find no dignified way of escape. Thus we continue this dance...


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## Back Pack Hack

The FACT that you THINK you know 'what it says' speaks volumes.

The FACT that you CANNOT accept another possibility means you are unteachable.

You win.


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## Kauboy

Back Pack Hack said:


> The FACT that you THINK you know 'what it says' speaks volumes.
> 
> The FACT that you CANNOT accept another possibility means you are unteachable.
> 
> You win.


I guess that's as dignified an exit as can be managed at this point...


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## justinsane

Back Pack Hack said:


> 3 + 4 - 1 < 6 is not a solvable equation.





Back Pack Hack said:


> 3 + 4 - 1 < 6 is not a solvable equation.


in fact it's not an equation


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## Kauboy

justinsane said:


> in fact it's not an equation


My original question was a simple word problem where the reader must derive the equation using higher level thinking. This is a limitation of simple bots. They can't interpret overall meaning very well at all.

Sometimes, the universe grants us a tiny dose of miraculous coincidence...
This evening, while going over my daughter's high school algebra for her co-op tomorrow, the following word problem was presented:









Now, I know the use of "greater than" is gonna throw _*some*_ for quite the loop, but I hope it's clear from this example that sometimes math problems REQUIRE human interpretation in order to derive and solve the equation.
Attempting to apply only the most rudimentary logic by parsing simple words and building the equation that way is insufficient. That's why such things are great bot tests. Though the net does tend to catch a few less careful humans from time to time...

BTW, it did take my daughter two attempts...


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## justinsane

Kauboy said:


> My original question was a simple word problem where the reader must derive the equation using higher level thinking. This is a limitation of simple bots. They can't interpret overall meaning very well at all.
> 
> Sometimes, the universe grants us a tiny dose of miraculous coincidence...
> This evening, while going over my daughter's high school algebra for her co-op tomorrow, the following word problem was presented:
> View attachment 115005
> 
> 
> Now, I know the use of "greater than" is gonna throw _*some*_ for quite the loop, but I hope it's clear from this example that sometimes math problems REQUIRE human interpretation in order to derive and solve the equation.
> Attempting to apply only the most rudimentary logic by parsing simple words and building the equation that way is insufficient. That's why such things are great bot tests. Though the net does tend to catch a few less careful humans from time to time...
> 
> BTW, it did take my daughter two attempts...





Kauboy said:


> My original question was a simple word problem where the reader must derive the equation using higher level thinking. This is a limitation of simple bots. They can't interpret overall meaning very well at all.
> 
> Sometimes, the universe grants us a tiny dose of miraculous coincidence...
> This evening, while going over my daughter's high school algebra for her co-op tomorrow, the following word problem was presented:
> View attachment 115005
> 
> 
> Now, I know the use of "greater than" is gonna throw _*some*_ for quite the loop, but I hope it's clear from this example that sometimes math problems REQUIRE human interpretation in order to derive and solve the equation.
> Attempting to apply only the most rudimentary logic by parsing simple words and building the equation that way is insufficient. That's why such things are great bot tests. Though the net does tend to catch a few less careful humans from time to time...
> 
> BTW, it did take my daughter two attempts...


I was merely pointing out that it wasn't actually an equation.
Now the above pasted example can be an equation 
I read it as
(4x+6) * 3 = -x+5 
Which I believe makes x = -1


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## Kauboy

justinsane said:


> I was merely pointing out that it wasn't actually an equation.
> Now the above pasted example can be an equation
> I read it as
> (4x+6) * 3 = -x+5
> Which I believe makes x = -1


BPH's derivation was indeed not an equation, but written as an inequality.
The original word problem I presented would yield an equation, similar to the example in the picture I provided above.

Your derivation of the sample equation, and its solution, are correct. 😉


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