# When to intervene?



## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

Walking thru Sams with my wife and two little girls yesterday and as we turned into the pasta isle I came across a very disturbing scene. There was a family of four shopping . The youngest was about 4 and the adult male ( won't call him a man) was cussing this little boy out about trying to get some pasta sause. I told the man very bluntly to watch his mouth around my family or he would have huge (240lb) issues he can't handle. So the chump coward down and shut his mouth. So we grab our stuff and proceed shopping. Soon as I got around the corner I heard him mumble something tgen heard the boy start crying so I told my wife to keep going and I went back around and saw that POS squeezeing the boy by the back of the neck. I came unglued and for a second thought about skinning leather on his ass but knew better and I wouldn't waste a hydra shock on his ass. I cornered his ass by the rail and almost gave him a new dental plan when my family came around the corner to see what was going on (woman just don't hear me sometimes). So I let him go and he grabs his wife and they leave there buggy. Now I have to explain to my little ones that he was just a mean daddy and I would never get angry at them like he did to his boy. My wife and older girl were shaken up to say the least (nothing a strawberry shake didn't take care of). So I know I did the right thing but things could have escalated from there real fast if my wife didn't turn the corner. Was it better not to grab him and call the cops or turn green and hulk smash like I did? I guess the Grunt in me came out to fast to think clearly! I just wonder how he treats his family at home. So am I tge only hot head when it come to domestic violence?


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Its you. I think what you did was rude. Now if there speech laws prohibiting another issue. Freedom of speech get you and your family earplugs if you don't like the worlds sounds. IMO you broke the law, free speech without defaming content shouldn't matter to mature adults.

Its your call but I disagree with what you did

Parents are allowed to use restraint as long as it is not injurious

Now definitely I would not go that route but it is lawful in these parts.

If you think it was tort sue, IMO you overreacted.

Battery?

In these parts you call childrens aid or police if you think a parent is abusing their child.

Attacking someone for being a vulgar parent is you being the criminal, IMO.

Saying you are disturbed by his language is acceptable, or saying you will report for abuse, but physically attacking someone totally wrong
The kid was not at risk of or intended for physical injury. Restrain and shock control in response to control a child is lawful But obviously not desired.

Learn about pater familia

Its their kid not yours, if you have reason to believe he is breaking the law report it. going around and attacking people for non resisting citizens arrest reasons or self defence is you being a felon.

If you can't make a citizens arrests call authorities or mind your own business.

At least you believe in what you did to post, you'd be the criminal up here.

IMO here is your sane point of intervention
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest_in_the_United_States

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/when-parents-physically-discipline-their-children-doe

Also look up simple battery and felony battery

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime)

Here is Iowa
http://www.livestrong.com/article/1006663-iowas-laws-parents-disciplining-children/

Center for Effective Discipline, Iowa laws regarding parental discipline of children are as follows: "The use of corporal punishment by the person responsible for the care of a child, which does not result in a physical injury to the child, shall not be considered abuse (unless otherwise prohibited). Child endangerment includes using unreasonable force, torture, or cruelty which results in physical injury, is intended to cause serious injury, or causes substantial mental or emotional harm."

signs of physical abuse of a child include bruises, lacerations, welts, burns, scalds and reddening of surface tissue lasting more than 24 hours.
Only for Corrective purposes means parents must use discipline only for behavior modification.

You might try approachigng by saying, hey what's wrong? You look upset?

Or how much for your kid with a coy smile

If you want positive creation you can do that by altering activated brain pathways to create mood alteration. Aggression feeds agression

https://books.google.ca/books?id=2x...a=X&ei=OSkhVc76E8LcsAX0l4G4Bg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBQ


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Only one more thing, get the license plate and call child protective services. I commend you on being a real man. Bravo.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

There was a movie starring Michael Douglas called The Star Chamber. A group of judges were sick of guilty people getting off due to technicalities so they set up a Vigalante type system to punish the guilty people.

If I had a kajillion dollars, I would hire some bad ass people to covertly punish fools like this idiot that you encountered Jager. So Jager you are now on my potential list of people to hire. 

Seriously, your intent was honorable. But in today's world, you probably did more harm then good as this coward probably took out his frustrations on his family later that day.

That's were Slippy's Star Chamber comes into play...we find out where this idiot lives and ambush him when he takes out the garbage at night and beat the crap out of him and tie him, naked, to a tree in the woods. We let him know that if he cannot treat women and children like a man, we'll be back. Then we slip off into the night to inflict our justice on the next worthless soul...


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

Like I said in OP he was squeezing the boy by the neck! That's not physical harm Will2?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

You made threats against this man, escalated the situation, and generally made a bad situation worse. Before you intervene you should figure out what you are trying to achieve. With the approach you took, the only thing I can see you achieving is getting into a fight in the middle of a store. If you actually carried through and so much as touched this guy he would be fully justified in shooting you.

A better approach might have been to walk und say something like "Where can I find the pasta sauce? It looks good." This would cause the family to focus on the fact they were in public, disrupt the conflict, and give things a chance to settle down, without any confrontation.

For all you know the kid is ADHD and is a major control problem that the family has not figured out how to control, but you have seen a brief snapshot of this family and made a huge assumption. I'd say you owe them all an apology.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

I agree that such behavior is infuriating, but I mind my own business when it is a parent/child matter.


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Cell phone pic would have been a better option then assault on your part.


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## Spice (Dec 21, 2014)

Letting the guy know bluntly that kind of behavior -- language or the way he grabbed the kid -- is good citizenship in my eyes. Social pressure Does influence how people behave, even if they're not being watched. I applaud you for not just ignoring it.

Making it physical is counter-productive though I think. It reinforces the guy's beliefs that might makes right, so it's not likely to make him act better when He's the 'might' in the room. It also reinforces the same idea in the rest of the family. Give the boy a better example than he sees at home.


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

Hind sight is 20/20! Playing it thru in my head I would of done things 100% different. However when I saw him doing harm (not punishment) to that little man I had a slip in composure I normally never have.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Did his head pop off or his head / body go limp. My measure would be if his grip left bruises. Personally I would expect it to be superficial if his corroded or did not result in boy choking thus no screams.

Its not good but I think unless there was no reason for it it was probably OK. In a stereotyped situation and I wasn't there it goes like this


Boy acts up
Father says shut up etc..
You say shutup

Father cannot verbally correct so he must now use physical control

You clock him.





The father might be able to learn other child control measures but if they are within the law.it is their choice.


Getting grabbed by the neck ain't too injurious, a good choke hold or twisting of the neck is though. Grabbing a neck controls the head and body.



I didn't see I really don't know.

it happened for a reason imo


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

My children are my progeny. I decide not a passed by in a store with five seconds of exposure. 
If you decide to walk up on my situation with my family and intervene with threats of force. Be prepared.

Not a good idea on your part. You do not know who you are intervening on. Your number one responsibility you have is to protect your family. That includes you. You put yourself in major life threatening danger and you don't even realize it.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Your intentions where honorable to say the least and admire you standing up. The guy was a first class ass. You do have to exercise more restraint however. When you advance the action and became the aggressor it was you who could have wound up in the back of the police car. In another day and time that would not have been the case. Sadly, times have changed....and not for the best. You were doing the right thing.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Prepared One said:


> Your intentions where honorable to say the least and admire you standing up. The guy was a first class ass. You do have to exercise more retraint however. When you advance the action and became the aggressor it was you who could have wound up in the back of the police car. In another day and time that would not have been the case. Sadly, times have changed....and not for the best. You werre doing the right thing.


I don't agree. He was at best interfering in how another family raises it's children. He had no idea what led up to the situation before he arrived, and he acted like a bully.

Even after this post, he still doesn't get it.



JAGER said:


> Hind sight is 20/20! Playing it thru in my head I would of done things 100% different. However when I saw him doing harm (not punishment) to that little man I had a slip in composure I normally never have.


He is assuming that harm was being done. Was the kid hospitalized? Did he have visible bruises? Does he have any idea what the discipline problem was? No he saw something, jumped to conclusions and acted like a thug, setting a terrible example for the kid on how to behave in a public setting and destroying whatever small amount of control the father had over the child.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Diver said:


> I don't agree. He was at best interfering in how another family raises it's children. He had no idea what led up to the situation before he arrived, and he acted like a bully.


His intent was correct if a little overly zealous. I stand by what I said.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Believe me this whole incident was captured on video. The man and his family have grounds for civil liability.


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

As stated previously hind sight is 20/20. I do regreat touching the asshole. I shouldn't of went to his level. I would have still stated to watch is mouth. By screaming at his son he's a little f$$king $hit around my family won't be tolerated. With that said I'm sure he's a great father and will be a perfect roll model for all fathers to follow. I do regret giving him a little shove to get some distance. As for a civil suit sure let him. Once they see him squeezing his 4 year old to the ground by the back of the neck and the gentleman hollering I'm sure I'm screwed. 

I fully expected a little flack but I'm actually a little shocked by some of these comments. What if he was doing that to a woman/his wife would one of you intervene? Or would you still be scared of how he would react or a civil suit? Ooohh never mind. Thanks for the comments. I'll keep them in consideration in case this ever happens again. Happy Easter everyone!


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I understand the caution and concern most posters have trending in this area. The reason for trepidation is that as a society we no longer expect men to become chivalrous. To be real gentlemen who will stand up against wrong and for right. We as society punish them and wonder aloud why there are no real men. The problem lies with a lack of faith. Just my view.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Wow! I think some self control is in need...get help. You should be glad that you didn't find your family watching you being taken away in handcuffs! Someone could have very easily come across you doing that in the store and called the police on you.
The guy probably went home pissed and took it out on the wife/kid.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Camel923 said:


> I understand the caution and concern most posters have trending in this area. The reason for trepidation is that as a society we no longer expect men to become chivalrous. To be real gentlemen who will stand up against wrong and for right. We as society punish them and wonder aloud why there are no real men. The problem lies with a lack of faith. Just my view.


Chivalrous doesn't mean using brute force. The muscle that should have been used was the brain. Violence and intimidation shouldn't be your go to problem solver. IMO, restraint in situations like this shows a strong man. A man that isn't going to let his emotions get the better of him. He can still take care of the problem without being a part of it.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Want to see Denton lose his relaxed demeanor? Spew vulgarity in the presence of my family. I'm willing to go the extra mile if you don't have enough shame to realize you have crossed the line, or if you are too much of a trailer trash punk to even realize that there is a line. Disrespect my wife or my mother with public displays of vulgarity. Try this Southern Gentleman and see just how far I am willing to take it. I have a track record that, if such trash could review it, would give him reason to cease his activity.

There was a time when this nation's gentlemen didn't stand quietly when the trash slithered out into the light of public places and continued to act in such manner. The term, _gentleman_, does not mean cowardly, soft, or timid. It refers to a man who conducts himself in a polite, disciplined and proper manner. That in no way means he is to be a slithering, boy-man who doesn't even understand what "freedom of speech" really mean.

As far as laying hands on him because he was laying hands on the child, Mish has a bit of a point. The trash you encountered is a bully. He cowed to you not because you were right, but because of your might. When bullies get cowed, they find someone weaker and vent their anger. The answer to that problem is with the mother. She needs to do what is needed to be done. There are avenues she can pursue, and should pursue.


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## MaterielGeneral (Jan 27, 2015)

The minute you touched him you committed battery. If he or some one else called the cops you would have went to jail for assault and battery.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Then toss in the hydra shok issue and you might not be owning guns anymore after you get out of the pokey

The Father may have even been justified in using deadly force against yourself.

The person in the middle of any domestic dispute becomes the loser.

Ever try to break up a fight between BF & GF. They both will beat up on you


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

I admire the courage to stand up to him but the issue is you become the aggressor to that family. Right or wrong what he was doing you now are their aggressor. And that makes you faulty in the eyes of the law. You want to protect your kids first and you do that by not having criminal charges laid against you and staying employed. To have that kids back is awesome. I would of just said in jest to the child - "don't worry son, one day you'll be bigger than him. And that I'd like to see."


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Denton said:


> Want to see Denton lose his relaxed demeanor? Spew vulgarity in the presence of my family. I'm willing to go the extra mile if you don't have enough shame to realize you have crossed the line, or if you are too much of a trailer trash punk to even realize that there is a line. Disrespect my wife or my mother with public displays of vulgarity. Try this Southern Gentleman and see just how far I am willing to take it. I have a track record that, if such trash could review it, would give him reason to cease his activity.
> 
> There was a time when this nation's gentlemen didn't stand quietly when the trash slithered out into the light of public places and continued to act in such manner. The term, _gentleman_, does not mean cowardly, soft, or timid. It refers to a man who conducts himself in a polite, disciplined and proper manner. That in no way means he is to be a slithering, boy-man who doesn't even understand what "freedom of speech" really mean.
> 
> As far as laying hands on him because he was laying hands on the child, Mish has a bit of a point. The trash you encountered is a bully. He cowed to you not because you were right, but because of your might. When bullies get cowed, they find someone weaker and vent their anger. The answer to that problem is with the mother. She needs to do what is needed to be done. There are avenues she can pursue, and should pursue.


Yea. What he said.


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## Illini Warrior (Jan 24, 2015)

take the guy to task over his language - been there and done it ..... everything else? .... you're going to jail or getting buried one day soon .... if he actually hurt the wife or kids that would have been different .... there's actually tons of kids that need their freaking necks more than squeezed - got an idea the father was trying to stop the kid from busting a jar of pasta sauce all over the damn aisle .... some kids absolutely positively WON'T listen


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

I think the title should have been how to intervene. Isn't part of societies problem that no one sees anything or acts on it anymore? If you see a child being talked to and treated like that in public can you imagine what happens in private? I don't agree with the actions but I sure as hell agree with the intent! 

As for the foul language there was a case years ago where someone was asked to stop cussing and they didn't and it went to trial. I tried to find it but had no luck. It was on a river in Georgia (?) I think they were rafting.


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

I guess times have changed. I guess my Georgia upbringing was based around a different root. As per me pushing him by the shoulder I knew I was wrong soon as I did it. As I stated in my OP. It's not like I punshed him in the face and slung him around SAMS. I pushed him by the shoulder. I guess you would of had to be there. I guess next time I'll just call the cops on physical contact, abuse, punishment, tough love or whatever you want to call it. Thanks for your thought! *I stand my ground on the verbal corrections.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

JAGER said:


> I guess times have changed. I guess my Georgia upbringing was based around a different root. As per me pushing him by the shoulder I knew I was wrong soon as I did it. As I stated in my OP. It's not like I punshed him in the face and slung him around SAMS. I pushed him by the shoulder. I guess you would of had to be there. I guess next time I'll just call the cops on physical contact, abuse, punishment, tough love or whatever you want to call it. Thanks for your thought! *I stand my ground on the verbal corrections.


And I stand my ground on the verbal confrontation as well. Want to say something? Say something that will deescalate the situation. People here have been talking about being a gentleman. You are not being a gentleman by escalating. You are not being a gentleman by bullying someone who is having a problem disciplining his children. Your actions show that your intentions were not in any way noble, but you were looking for a confrontation that you are now trying to rationalize instead of accepting that you truly screwed up.

You could have done something as simple as walk up and in a calm voice say "Excuse me, is there a problem here I can help with?" Instead of that, you acted like the bully you are accusing the other guy of being. Furthermore, the moment you touched him you were guilty of assault.

My upbringing is southern too. That is no excuse for acting like a bully. You owe that entire family an apology.


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## Therussianbear (Dec 22, 2012)

I respect what you did but when in a place like Wally World, it places you in harms way of getting charged with some made up complaint. The guy was a worthless scum,but you not being a cop all you could do is inform him about his language.
Now about his child abuse that needed to be handled by the cops.
Always be careful when dealing with cops as they many times will not be helpful,if the people your complaining about tell another story and you have no witness. And your family members don't make good witness to cops.
Wally World has videos of everything happening in store except the rest rooms. I sure would have reported it to the manager,but don't expect much help from any store manager.
You put the guy on notice and that was good,but try hard not to get into any deal where you draw your handgun,that really opens a BIG can of worms and trust me it won't go in your favor.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

The point at which you should intervene is clearly defined in most state laws. You should always remember that discretion is the better part of valor as well. Whenever you intervene you are exposing yourself to significant liability. Should you take a life in the act of saving another you will be sued. No matter how justified your actions the survivors of the family will bring an action against you. Your case will also, in most cases be presented to a grand jury for indictment. This entire process will take a very long time. You will be worried about losing your personal property, having your wages attached and wondering for months whether or not you will be charged criminally. It is a miserable time.

The best case scenario is that you will not be indicted, the family of the person you killed or wounded will realize a lawsuit is futile and public sentiment is overwhelmingly in your favor. It is still a bad, bad place to be.

When I take action off duty it is only to prevent serious bodily injury or death. I will identify myself as "the fuzz" and I will conduct the entire affair under the policies of my Department and State and Federal Law. That way, I enjoy certain protections the average citizen does not. When I act under the color of law I am essentially "clocking in" when I take action. 

I will always quietly tolerate someone cussing a blue streak in public. It is their right, I can walk away. If a child is being yelled at or disciplined inappropriately I will file a Child Services referral. If there is an assault taking place I will use the minimum amount of force possible to stop the assault. That may well mean I have to use deadly force. I hope, beyond hope that I never have to. I have been very fortunate thus far.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

Slippy said:


> There was a movie starring Michael Douglas called The Star Chamber. A group of judges were sick of guilty people getting off due to technicalities so they set up a Vigalante type system to punish the guilty people.
> 
> If I had a kajillion dollars, I would hire some bad ass people to covertly punish fools like this idiot that you encountered Jager. So Jager you are now on my potential list of people to hire.
> 
> ...


It's funny you mention this scenario, I did not know about this movie. Have been recently thinking how I would love to see Harry Reid before these Justices.


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

I'm a Buckeye by birth. That means I don't know when to keep my mouth shut. Even as a woman, I would have intervened on the childs behalf.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

JAGER said:


> I told the man very bluntly to watch his mouth around my family or he would have huge (240lb) issues he can't handle. So the chump coward down and shut his mouth.
> 
> I came unglued and for a second thought about skinning leather on his ass but knew better and I wouldn't waste a hydra shock on his ass. I cornered his ass by the rail and almost gave him a new dental plan when my family came around the corner to see what was going on
> 
> ...


I don't know you and I wasn't there but I do commend your heart being in the right place.

That said, and having pulled some highlights from your story though, I have to wonder how you're the 'solution' and not a problem yourself.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

BagLady said:


> I'm a Buckeye by birth. That means I don't know when to keep my mouth shut. Even as a woman, I would have intervened on the childs behalf.


From the description of the situation I may well have intervened as well, but I would have tried to de-escalate in order to obtain a positive outcome. Bullying someone who is already under stress is simply compounding an already bad situation.


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

Well I just say I agree with most of the replies and like I've said on every reply I've made next time Ill let the powers that be handle the physical portion. I'll try not to put my family in that pickle again. I won't intervene unless it's life, limb or eyesight. As towards the comments saying I was looking for trouble go pound sand and shame on you. I did what I thought was right at the time. Granted I did lose my composer for a second I got it. Lesson learned. I never stated I wanted to shoot the guy! As was stated an apology is due to the whole family I think that needs some re-thinking. I would like to apologize to the lady and kids but that's it. What about the apology to my family for using that kind of language and scaring my children in a public place and etc etc? Seems you're seeing things one way. I would like to go back and take away the physical part but I can't. Since it's been a couple days and the cops haven't called yet I guess the male of the family decided not to file charges. I've never hunted trouble, 15 years of military service has taught me better. so I'll chalk this up a lesson learned.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Emotional responses are rarely the proper course of action. 
Calling CPS might be the correct action to take and having a video to prove the allegation would add to the reason intervention is needed.
By acting physically you have embarrassed dad in front of the kid and proved that physical force is OK as long as you can get away with it.
The result of your action might be that when dad gets the boy home he is punished for the humiliation you caused the dad.
This reinforces the kids thought that might makes right - which could be reinforced by those in his own age group as well. When he grows up he will be an abuser too - because it was shown to be the correct course of action.

Calling CPS could break a family apart that might not need to be split up but there are things that can be done when CPS intervenes to get the family back together. It is always traumatic but is also repairable.

There has to be a "provable" felony in progress before you have the right to physically engage another without committing a crime yourself.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Excuse me? There is no "right" to public vulgarity. As with all rights, there are responsibilities. One has the right to speak his mind, he has the right to declare "the emperor has no clothes," but he has the responsibility to properly choose his words. Not only was this once understood, but was enforced by law. Of course, this was back when it was understood that a healthy society was something to be protected, not destroyed, back when the origin of our rights was acknowledged and worshiped rather than ridiculed, and before the PC nonsense that morality was "relative" or morality could not be "legislated," and before our culture was not molded by the most vulgar and indecent of society.

A nation is made up not of not only its geographic territory, and not only its governing system, but also its society, and its society is defined by its culture. When the society's culture becomes one of undisciplined, generate behavior, the nation becomes weak and vulnerable to fall. Look around; you can and should see it coming.

To you women, let me share a little story.

Until not to long ago, I was in the Air Force reserve. My last squadron was aeroportal squadron. Let's face it; that particular specialty code doesn't require one to be particularly bright, and many of my fellow service members were "low information voter" types from the housing projects of Montgomery, Alabama. One morning, the idiots in my section were really on a roll with their language. I piped up, saying, "Hey; y'all mind reining in your language a bit? There might be ladies or gentlemen around who are getting sick of hearing it."
A female in the section said, "I'm a lady, and I talk that way, too."
Clearly, definitions of words are not taught in school, nowadays.
"Just because you are a female doesn't make you are lady, and asserting you are lady while conducting yourself as gutter trash is an obvious contradiction with reality. Want to be a lady? Moreover, want to be able to be treated as a lady? Be a lady. Want to be treated with the disrespect suggested in the lyrics of that rap-crap I hear blasting in the parking lot? Act like gutter trash. 
"Want to be able to demand respect? Act like a lady, appear as if you deserve that respect."

You know what happened? I noticed that girl started acting like a lady. Furthermore, I noticed a change in behavior among the boy-men in the section. No, they were still what they were, but they were more mindful of how they spoke when in her presence. At least their consciences weren't so seared and silent that they couldn't at least do that.

Those who are attempting to destroy this nation are working diligently, using cinema, TV and music, to undermine our culture. That doesn't mean ladies and gentlemen have to stand by with their mouths shut, "tolerating" intolerable behavior. As a matter of fact, doing so is not only allowing the destruction of what little remains of our culture, but is also disrespectful to our own wives and children.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

JAGER said:


> Well I just say I agree with most of the replies and like I've said on every reply I've made next time Ill let the powers that be handle the physical portion. I'll try not to put my family in that pickle again. I won't intervene unless it's life, limb or eyesight. As towards the comments saying I was looking for trouble go pound sand and shame on you. I did what I thought was right at the time. Granted I did lose my composer for a second I got it. Lesson learned. I never stated I wanted to shoot the guy! As was stated an apology is due to the whole family I think that needs some re-thinking. I would like to apologize to the lady and kids but that's it. What about the apology to my family for using that kind of language and scaring my children in a public place and etc etc? Seems you're seeing things one way. I would like to go back and take away the physical part but I can't. Since it's been a couple days and the cops haven't called yet I guess the male of the family decided not to file charges. I've never hunted trouble, 15 years of military service has taught me better. so I'll chalk this up a lesson learned.


Ask yourself if were you escalating or de-escalating. Your own description of the situation says to me you were escalating. Perhaps you described it poorly, but I am reacting to your description. As for an apology to your family over the language, I'd say if you can't offer one for your actions, (assault) you really can't expect one in return over language.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

By the way, you might find this interesting; especially those of us who served and are still serving in the military.

This, from "George Washington, General Orders, July 04, 1775"

_*The General most earnestly requires, and expects, a due observance of those articles of war, established for the Government of the army, which forbid profane cursing, swearing and drunkeness; And in like manner requires and expects, of all Officers, and Soldiers, not engaged on actual duty, a punctual attendance on divine Service, to implore the blessings of heaven upon the means used for our safety and defence.*_

How far have we fallen?


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

Driver: last comment well played! I can't argue that one.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Here in Mass. You would have been arrested for assault and battery.
I understand how you felt, but, you have to keep out of such matters no matter how strong you feel about it.
Further, your size versus his, he could have shot you and got away with it after you laid your hands on him.
Your survival is more important than being a hero to some unknown person.


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

Addressing the bad language was your right. I'm surprised I havent been reprimanded for using the "F" bomb towards Ralph Rotten...
But, I won't apologize for it. I hardly ever use that word, or cuss much at all. I actually don't like the "F" word. 
But, every once in a while you come across someone who only understands your point if you talk in thier own language.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

JAGER said:


> Walking thru Sams with my wife and two little girls yesterday and as we turned into the pasta isle I came across a very disturbing scene. There was a family of four shopping . The youngest was about 4 and the adult male ( won't call him a man) was cussing this little boy out about trying to get some pasta sause. I told the man very bluntly to watch his mouth around my family or he would have huge (240lb) issues he can't handle. So the chump coward down and shut his mouth. So we grab our stuff and proceed shopping. Soon as I got around the corner I heard him mumble something tgen heard the boy start crying so I told my wife to keep going and I went back around and saw that POS squeezeing the boy by the back of the neck. I came unglued and for a second thought about skinning leather on his ass but knew better and I wouldn't waste a hydra shock on his ass. I cornered his ass by the rail and almost gave him a new dental plan when my family came around the corner to see what was going on (woman just don't hear me sometimes). So I let him go and he grabs his wife and they leave there buggy. Now I have to explain to my little ones that he was just a mean daddy and I would never get angry at them like he did to his boy. My wife and older girl were shaken up to say the least (nothing a strawberry shake didn't take care of). So I know I did the right thing but things could have escalated from there real fast if my wife didn't turn the corner. Was it better not to grab him and call the cops or turn green and hulk smash like I did? I guess the Grunt in me came out to fast to think clearly! I just wonder how he treats his family at home. So am I tge only hot head when it come to domestic violence?


I would have had your ass arrested.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Jeez such a rough crowd I see this as two separate issues.
First this is a social problem fathers should not abuse their children note the word abuse. SO you stepped in and did something to improve society I commend you for this, if it was with honest intent.
Second the effects of said action unfortunately are not lasting and not significant enough. I have stopped and pointed people out, to my family and loudly said that is not how you do ____ but that's me its not non confrontational but it is deeming (which is a form of corrective action) and elicits a response which you can respond to. OR I have approached a guy and a younger girl (separately) and asked if they had spoken to God today that one is kinda weird but its so awkward and introspective that it works.

Laws are not a replacement for a moral compass.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Well think the hard pressure to the kids neck would certainly qualify as family violence..injury to a child etc...especially if it left red hand prints. That is out of bounds for corporal punishment. I dont care what the lawyer says..lol. If somebody had timely called the cops ..the story might have a happier ending. Scumbags such as the alleged perp most likely got warrants outstanding..might have a pot roast down his pants and go down for shoplifting..blah blah blah. Calling CPS is a joke. From as far as can see you did not physically attack the guy which is good. You might need some meds..lol


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## JAGER (Oct 10, 2012)

Pir8fan said:


> I would have had your ass arrested.


Sorry to here that NRA God. I guess in some places it's ok to verbally assault "hollering you Little Fu$$king $hit" along with other profanity and physical assaulting a child is ok but when someone your size gives you a wee shove you'll have him arrested. Glad to see a large percentage of my fellow preppers are taking up for this guy. For those of you that would intervene thank you for your courage but please don't lose your composure as I did and touch the POS. Jäger Out!


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

jager said:


> sorry to here that nra god. I guess in some places it's ok to verbally assault "hollering you little fu$$king $hit" along with other profanity and physical assaulting a child is ok but when someone your size gives you a wee shove you'll have him arrested. Glad to see a large percentage of my fellow preppers are taking up for this guy. For those of you that would intervene thank you for your courage but please don't lose your composure as i did and touch the pos. Jäger out!


In my post, I am not taking up for the guy. My statement was in your protection.
I spent 20 years as a police officer, I know what would happen to you.
You realy cannot interfere in a family affair, If you must, call 911, do not insert yourself into the mix.
There was no threat directed at you, but you posed one to him!
Further you cannot tell someone to shut up because you do not like their language.
If I was (and I do not) yelling at my kid and grabbed her by the neck for whatever reason,
and you came up from behind and grabbed me as you described, I would have shot you dead on the spot!
No matter what the reason, you have no justification to intervene in something like you described, other than inform law enforcement.
Like in the michael brown case, you physical size alone makes you a threat, assaulting someone physically after a verbal altercation is an invitation to a disaster.
In closing, I am not insulting you or throwing you under the bus, what I have said is for your own good.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

alterego said:


> Believe me this whole incident was captured on video. The man and his family have grounds for civil liability.


you said it was in a Sam's right? so I agree *video taken *and I am sure that they have seen a lot worse than that. 
I think you should have stayed out of it. No matter how justified you were. This is in my opinion, the exact example of why our system is becoming pussy-fied most children have no real consequences to their actions and they grow up learning that no matter what they do there is always a way out. Some times you as parent have to do the hard thing. I also agree with camel923 - a real man can be stern and would have busted you in your chops for interfering in his families business, was the child in danger of being seriously hurt or dead? no! A squeeze on the nape of the neck is a lot more subtly that a back hand across the face to make your point and reminds the child who's in charge so settle down. Bottom line people should stay out of other peoples business. And before you think less of me I retired as a pediatric PA so yah I have seen abuse to the 1st degree.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Anti profanity laws and disorderly conduct by profane language laws have come and gone. In my state anyway, we cannot arrest regardless of what a person says short of a threat. The closest we can come is cited under the disorderly conduct statute which defines disorderly conduct as any act that serves no lawful purpose or by it's very nature causes public alarm. It is rarely invoked for anything other than fighting by mutual combatants or instances that result in public alarm. We are required to have a victim. The Officers cannot be victims and we cannot simply place "society" as the victim. 

The most I could ever do is ask that someone refrain from language in the presence of my family and hope that individual complies. It sucks, but that's just the way it is in most places. There are times when a person must be brought to heel so to speak. My wife once had a customer making unwanted advances, including vulgar love letters and another lifting her skirt while she was at work. I quietly and firmly convinced both individuals that their present course of action was contrary to their continued well being and that failure to refrain could prove catastrophic. Not in so many words but you get the picture. Had they not complied would I have tuned them up? Damned straight I would. We have to choose our battles wisely. I would have lost my job and gone to jail, but my wife's dignity is more important. Some folks just need believe that you are a man of your word.


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## Therussianbear (Dec 22, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> In my post, I am not taking up for the guy. My statement was in your protection.
> I spent 20 years as a police officer, I know what would happen to you.
> You realy cannot interfere in a family affair, If you must, call 911, do not insert yourself into the mix.
> There was no threat directed at you, but you posed one to him!
> ...


Big Mike Brown was 1 a thief 2 a thug bully 3 a drug user. He would have killed Officer Wilson if the officer had not killed him first.
The sad part along with a bunch of worthless lying towns people and our President getting along with our justice Dept. also the NAACP group of anti-whites involved,it's just plain luck the grand jury found the real truth.
Now we have to deal with this thug Brown becoming a martyr next their will be a statue of BIG MIKE in Washington right next to MLK.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Last time I looked..in Texas sounds like a good case of disorderly conduct with the loud cursing etc. It does take an offended party or potentially offended party..as in some old widder lady dropping her jaw as noted through the car window when she heard all that mess...and sounds like that could be Mr. Jager.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Hey Jager, could you come on down to east Texas and visit the local Walmart? Some of those folks need a real buttwhippin. I don't mess with them because I carry a gun everywhere and generally mind my own biz. Courts don't like it when someone who carries starts trouble when life and limb are not at risk. All the same I commend you for standing up for your values. Didn't sound like you roughed him up, just gave the piece of excrement a good lesson on how to act in public. Doubt he learned anything, but you did.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

JAGER said:


> Sorry to here that NRA God. I guess in some places it's ok to verbally assault "hollering you Little Fu$$king $hit" along with other profanity and physical assaulting a child is ok but when someone your size gives you a wee shove you'll have him arrested. Glad to see a large percentage of my fellow preppers are taking up for this guy. For those of you that would intervene thank you for your courage but please don't lose your composure as I did and touch the POS. Jäger Out!


Were you truly worried for the child's safety?


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## Therussianbear (Dec 22, 2012)

Mish said:


> Were you truly worried for the child's safety?


Do you have a point to make? Or are you just ragging on the O.P.?


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Therussianbear said:


> Do you have a point to make? Or are you just ragging on the O.P.?


I think this is a reasonable question to ask. I'm not ragging on anyone.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

JAGER said:


> Driver: last comment well played! I can't argue that one.


Okay. We're getting somewhere. Now, can you tell me whether the child was ADHD? Have you ever had the problem of disciplining a child with ADHD? If you don't know whether the child was ADHD, then I would say you really don't know the circumstances of what you were seeing. Nothing in your description of the problem tells me how the family got to the point they were at prior to your becoming involved. Was the kid normally well behaved, or did he set the dog on fire earlier in the day? Was the kid pissing in the fresh produce aisle?

I realize that corporal punishment of kids is frowned on these days, but there are some kids that will persist in bad behavior until they are physically stopped. ADHD kids are often like that. Is that what was going on here? From your description it doesn't sound like you knew any of this. You believe the adult was the bad guy, but you describe a situation that could be a problem kid has pushed his father to the breaking point.

Let's say for a minute that is what the problem is here. Your actions have just proven to the kid that he can get away with misbehaving as long as he does it in a public place where other people will step in and prevent any real discipline from being applied. That's the picture I get from your original description.

On the other hand maybe you interpreted it right. The real point is you jumped in without knowing.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

I thought it was a great question. Had the fuzz been called to handle that situation think that would be one of the questions they would want to ask any witnesses. An honest answer could influence the case elements of particular offenses among other things. Thanks Mish.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

The first bad was the father doing family business in public.
My father would have quieted me down with that dreaded phrase-
"Wait til I get you home, boy."
Another further funny biz from me would have gotten me that even more dreaded _walk out to the car._
The man took no guff from his three wild sons, but neither would he have used profanity or a smack down where any could see it.

Were I the size of a Klingon battlecruiser I would have "politely" pulled him aside and "politely" _commiserated_ with him about his unfortunate life and offered him _friendly_ advice on how large scary fellas who could snap his neck like a twig would handle Mr. Bad Kid without creating a public disturbance.

The last thing to do is give a loser with a burden he can't handle another bad memory to live with.

Never put a man down in front of his family - he may be a dipstick but he's all they have. Every time he sees the boy he'll remember that incident.

Should you see him again see if you can undo that.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Anthonyx said:


> The first bad was the father doing family business in public.
> My father would have quieted me down with that dreaded phrase-
> "Wait til I get you home, boy."
> Another further funny biz from me would have gotten me that even more dreaded _walk out to the car._
> ...


Ahhhhhh!!! "Just wait until we get home!!!!" I remember it well!! Man, the car ride home was almost worse than the punishment!! haha


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Anthonyx said:


> The first bad was the father doing family business in public.
> My father would have quieted me down with that dreaded phrase-
> "Wait til I get you home, boy."
> Another further funny biz from me would have gotten me that even more dreaded _walk out to the car._
> ...


In this age using the word "Boy" is considered racial and deserving of it's own lawsuit


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm Irish/German I was used to fighting at the drop of a hat , or just for fun.
In the 70's that was OK even cool.
Now No Way Dude.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

Mish said:


> Ahhhhhh!!! "Just wait until we get home!!!!" I remember it well!! Man, the car ride home was almost worse than the punishment!! haha


Oh the get home part was worse believe me...
Dropped connection had to finish with an edit.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

For better or worse my Daddy was not big on corporal punishment. I got a whipping occasionally when I beat up my cousin while we were at his house.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

bigwheel said:


> For better or worse my Daddy was not big on corporal punishment. I got a whipping occasionally when I beat up my cousin while we were at his house.


My mom had a wooden spoon and a yardstick. lol My brother and I weren't too smart. We used to break the yardsticks and throw them in the woods so she wouldn't be able to use it. WELL, guess what...when fall/winter came around you could see all the broken yardsticks in the woods!! LOL Yeah, that didn't workout too well in the end for us. =)


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## stillacitizen2 (Jan 30, 2015)

I'm not going to judge because I wasn't there, living the moment. I didn't see what you saw. I didn't hear the tone in which he spoke to the kid. I know when one of my kids is being a persistently annoying turd, I have been known to drop the F-Bomb. It's kind of their signal that Dad is getting close to having had enough. You may not like the language, but foul words aren't prohibited. Might not be conducive or socially acceptable, but they have the right to say them. 

Grabbing a kid by the back of the neck isn't injurious or harmful, it's the front they worry about. Was the guy being an a-hole? Definitely sounds like it. But what was the whole picture? A couple of interactions that you saw, infuriated you. Maybe with good cause. And maybe that kid had been on a roll all day long. Granted he was maybe four, and I don't necessarily condone or see where putting your hands on a four year old like that is justified, but maybe it wasn't as inappropriate as you perceived? I mean, you were already mad, this was just one more thing to piss you off. My question is what happened when they got home? Did you make things better? Or worse? You'll never know. 

You did what you felt you needed to do. But you also questioned what you did, and brought it here to the forum. And that tells me that you're not sure if what you did or how you handled it was right. It has been my experience, that if you have to question whether or not something is right, it probably isn't. 

Is all lost? Absolutely not. Learning is a life long process. In anything I do, given my job and past experience (which is not fodder for here), I respond/react to a situation with the tools, training and experience that I have, and I always assess what I did to see if there was ANYTHING I could have done differently, better, or did I do exactly what I needed to, based on the information I had? And how do I use that experience next time? Live and learn, that's what it's all about.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

My dad used to flame my fanny with Mr. Sam at the drop of a hat and drop his hat.

When I saw him roar by on his Harley with the siren going I would say "that's my DAD".

If anyone jumped on him I would have bitten a chunk out their leg LEAVE MY DAD ALONE!

Never humiliate a man in front of his kid - if you do find a way to make up for it.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

JAGER said:


> Sorry to here that NRA God. I guess in some places it's ok to verbally assault "hollering you Little Fu$$king $hit" along with other profanity and physical assaulting a child is ok but when someone your size gives you a wee shove you'll have him arrested. Glad to see a large percentage of my fellow preppers are taking up for this guy. For those of you that would intervene thank you for your courage but please don't lose your composure as I did and touch the POS. Jäger Out!


Once you touched that guy, that was assault and I would have had your ass arrested had it been me. You were ok talking about his language but you are not an LEO nor a social service worker. You crossed the line when you assaulted that guy and there's no excuse for that.


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## Therussianbear (Dec 22, 2012)

Well you have to take a stand someplace,and I take a stand with forum member "Jager". 
I feel he stood up for what was right, and he was careful not to let it get out of hand. 
The rest of you can stand in the dark if you want, or where ever it fits you.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Anthonyx said:


> The first bad was the father doing family business in public.
> My father would have quieted me down with that dreaded phrase-
> "Wait til I get you home, boy."
> Another further funny biz from me would have gotten me that even more dreaded _walk out to the car._
> ...


Unfortunately, there are kids where that doesn't work. With a ADD or ADHD kid, they crave attention but it doesn't matter whether it is positive or negative attention. It is truly a counter-intuitive behavior to deal with. There are no dreaded phrases. They will misbehave just to get any sort of excitement going on around them. It takes a great deal of knowledge of the condition and what and what does not work with the particular kid to be able to control them at all.

The parent may not even know that the kid has the condition and be completely clueless as to why the kid is aggravating.

Again, I don't know if that is the case here, but it would not surprise me.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

I agree its tough watching somebody bully another that is weaker than they are even if its their children or an animal. Its tough but in today's world your better off just reporting it to the police unless a life is in imminent danger in which case you call it in as soon as possible. Not sure how they operate in your area but our local sheriff//pd has to make a report to health and family services every time they go on a call like this no matter what they find (not that I agree with the gov telling people how to raise their kids)

Tough situation to be in, but I wasn't there and I didn't see what you saw so I really can't judge your actions.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

Therussianbear said:


> Well you have to take a stand someplace,and I take a stand with forum member "Jager".
> I feel he stood up for what was right, and he was careful not to let it get out of hand.
> The rest of you can stand in the dark if you want, or where ever it fits you.


I doubt Jager came here looking for absolution or a pat on the back.

My take is he doesn't feel completely comfortable with the incident and wants some counsel from the likeminded.

My counsel is to go out of his way to find the skunk and give him a totally undeserved apology in front of those kids. That might dispel some of the trauma for all involved.

Especially Jager.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

JAGER said:


> As stated previously hind sight is 20/20. I do regreat touching the asshole. I shouldn't of went to his level. I would have still stated to watch is mouth. By screaming at his son he's a little f$$king $hit around my family won't be tolerated. With that said I'm sure he's a great father and will be a perfect roll model for all fathers to follow. I do regret giving him a little shove to get some distance. As for a civil suit sure let him. Once they see him squeezing his 4 year old to the ground by the back of the neck and the gentleman hollering I'm sure I'm screwed.
> 
> I fully expected a little flack but I'm actually a little shocked by some of these comments. What if he was doing that to a woman/his wife would one of you intervene? Or would you still be scared of how he would react or a civil suit? Ooohh never mind. Thanks for the comments. I'll keep them in consideration in case this ever happens again. Happy Easter everyone!


Intervention isn't attacking someone it is making an arrest. Either call for help or make an arrest if you don't have time to wait for help.

Use of force on children is different on adults

Acceptable grounds in adults are reasonable incitement, or self defence.

However you have no Immunities normally in using force unless it is justified

Absolutely no grounds exist for battering people unless it is in conjunction with an arrest except for things like training and sport where consent exists.

Your mindset is criminal. You cannot deem your parenting style the only correct model, you need to view it based on the limits of the law.

You can of course do what you want but you are endangering yourself while doing so. life ain't perfect some people don't want their kids to be soft.

Children are in custody of their parents, parents are duty bound for both care and watch it control.... There are acceptable methods of parental control, using reasonable amounts of force is acceptable. Husband and wife are not under one another's care and control unless there is a power of attorney or state citizen relationship.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

Will2 said:


> Intervention isn't attacking someone it is making an arrest. Either call for help or make an arrest if you don't have time to wait for help.
> 
> Use of force on children is different on adults
> 
> ...


His mindset is criminal?

A 2 year Associates Degree in STFU wouldn't hurt you none.

Your mindset is rectal.


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## jeff70 (Jan 29, 2014)

I wasn't there but from the way it was described I would have done the same thing as Jager, Sorry but it is just not in me to let shit like that slide.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I have 5 kids plus 1 semi adopted

There are times that they have driven me half crazy BUT never did I grab them as to hurt them and not in a public place...
(I have grabbed them, spanked em, I even have take one of them to the floor, and invited 1 to step outside...but it was all age appropriate....

Praise in Public scold and correct in private... 

If I saw a MAN hurting a child I would do something...

If a person is swearing around my family in a public place - I say something - WHY - because I want to make them a BAD EXAMPLE for my kids.

And frankly most Police departments will view profanity around children as disturbing the peace..

BUT worse then that I might find that they have committed CONTEMPT OF MAINE-MARINE

funny enough this just happened to me

a young feller used the f word about 3 times in 2 sentences

I said - are you using that as a noun, pronoun, or adjective

he said it is a "MAN PRONOUN" 

ME - "First you have to be a MAN! I spent 21 years in the Military and swearing never made me a better Marine!"

He shut up - which surprised me


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Jaguar, What you did was simply act like a man, something I admire. Unfortunately there are some laws that can make it difficult to sometimes do the right thing. 

I hope that in a similar situation I would do the same. I also hope that like you we'd get away with teaching that "boy" some manors without someone calling the cops. People who act like that" boy"often raise some pretty crooked kids unless someone helps show them the light.

I've told many a young man that getting a woman pregnant doesn't mean they are a man or even a father. Any fool can have sex. A good father has to exercise good judgment; something that "boy" wasn't doing.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I had a friend who, with his wife, adopted 7 kids, all siblings. He was led to believe before the adoption that they were at least healthy, but as it turned out they all suffered to varying degrees from fetal alcohol syndrome, which they only learned about after they had the kids for awhile and behavioral problems emerged. The kids are now all grown and 6 of the 7 are institutionalized in either mental of criminal facilities. They all suffer from lack of a moral compass. One has a mental age of 6, though he is now in his mid 30s.

These people were saints to raise those kids. The medical issues alone nearly bankrupted them. If once in all those years he yelled, or even swore, at one of those kids in a public place, I think it would be pretty lame to step in and assault him. In fact, you'd be assaulting a man who gave as much of himself to kids as anyone I ever met. He was also a scoutmaster.

None of us know the background here, including the OP.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Diver said:


> I had a friend who, with his wife, adopted 7 kids, all siblings. He was led to believe before the adoption that they were at least healthy, but as it turned out they all suffered to varying degrees from fetal alcohol syndrome, which they only learned about after they had the kids for awhile and behavioral problems emerged. The kids are now all grown and 6 of the 7 are institutionalized in either mental of criminal facilities. They all suffer from lack of a moral compass. One has a mental age of 6, though he is now in his mid 30s.
> 
> These people were saints to raise those kids. The medical issues alone nearly bankrupted them. If once in all those years he yelled, or even swore, at one of those kids in a public place, I think it would be pretty lame to step in and assault him. In fact, you'd be assaulting a man who gave as much of himself to kids as anyone I ever met. He was also a scoutmaster.
> 
> None of us know the background here, including the OP.


I raised a kid who had huge behavioral problems, parents did drugs and mother was a major drunk, His physlogical profile at age 6 was scary as hell (it basically guaranteed jail if he wasn't dead by age 18) but he was my nephew so I took him in and raised him. Lots of problems over the years but I never physically grabbed him by the neck or yelled at him in public.

No excuse for that type of behavior by the parent if you want to set a good example for the child. He's in his mid 20's now and while we went through a lot of hard years and several schools he's now in collage and working as a manager in a restaurant. He's still got some growing to do before I'd call him a man but he's on the right path and I'm proud of him.

Having said that I'm not man enough to adopt 7 kids. I couldn't imagine the sacrifice your friend and his wife made for those kids. Lord knows dealing that one troubled boy I helped raise darn near killed me a few times.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

Diver said:


> I had a friend who, with his wife, adopted 7 kids, all siblings. He was led to believe before the adoption that they were at least healthy, but as it turned out they all suffered to varying degrees from fetal alcohol syndrome, which they only learned about after they had the kids for awhile and behavioral problems emerged. The kids are now all grown and 6 of the 7 are institutionalized in either mental of criminal facilities. They all suffer from lack of a moral compass. One has a mental age of 6, though he is now in his mid 30s.
> 
> These people were saints to raise those kids. The medical issues alone nearly bankrupted them. If once in all those years he yelled, or even swore, at one of those kids in a public place, I think it would be pretty lame to step in and assault him. In fact, you'd be assaulting a man who gave as much of himself to kids as anyone I ever met. He was also a scoutmaster.
> 
> None of us know the background here, including the OP.


I would ALWAYS lean toward making sure the kid was protected and assume this was a habit with the parent...


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## sargedog (Nov 12, 2012)

OK if I may share my 2 shiny pennies. As a child I was abused, my father didn't use a switch or a belt. His weapon of choice was his fists or a 2x2. Here is a couple of memories I have,when I was 8 I had my nose broke because I did my home work wrong. When I was 10 he choked me till he thought I was dead, and just left me unconscious in my room. Cause for that assault was I wore my new shoes my aunt had bought me outside. He tried to kill my mother several times, and you ask why didn't she leave? We had no means until I was 10, that was the last beating I got from him. 

I had nothing wrong with me like ADD or whatever. He was just a mean sob. I am truly grateful to my mother and God for getting me through the trauma ( mental and physical). I am also grateful to him for teaching me how to NOT treat my family. I have no fond memories of him as a child, even when he was trying to be nice he made me drink root beer till I puked after I told him I didn't want any. I would have been thrilled to have someone stick up for me like that it might have put him back in line.

As a child I always said a prayer that I may become large enough to take care of myself and never be afraid of anyone ever again. I am now 6' 2' 325 lbs. I am disabled now but am still not afraid of anyone, let alone him. Your heart was in the right place, but sadly our society is more worried about PC than what's right. By all rights I should be nuttier than a fruitcake, but am just fine. Males like this should find someone their own size to take out there anger on.

How does this affect this little boy? Maybe he grows up to be a fine upstanding citizen or maybe he grows up to be a thug like his male figure. I believe there are ways of discipline that don't scar a person for life. I don't reckon anyone has ever died from a switchin' or even a normal whippin'. It's those crazy parents that think they have to damage you for life that worry me.

I also understand difficult children as well, my brother was a handful. Still not a cause for corporal punishment. I feel your parents are there to love and protect their children, and if they get out of line tan their hides (that's what they are for). If you can't trust your parents, who can you trust. I may be totally out of line for my thinking. That my stand and I am sticking to it.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

read you lima- charley sargedog


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

My dad believed in corporal punishment and he used his 3/4" leather belt to do so. I never felt like he was abusive and I still don't.
When I was raising my kids my hands were for showing affection and to help. I used a lexan paddle that was 12" long and 4" wide.
It never left a physical mark but made a lot of noise and that was enough.

The last time I used that paddle on my daughter she turned to me after her swat and said, "was that supposed to hurt?" I looked deep into her laughing eyes and asked her, "would you like it to?" Her eyes changed to a serious tone and her voice trembled, "nnooo". 
The last time I used a paddle on my adopted son - He knew what was coming and he knew it was deserved - I stood there, across the room from him knowing what I had to do. I was really angry at what he had done and how he had treated his mother. I stood there, he was watching and waiting and in one sweeping motion I raised that paddle and grabbed it with both hands and brought it down harder than I ever had before. It smashed against my raised knee and broke catastrophically in a lot of pieces. He stood there across the room from me with his eyes wide open and I told him that I would be upstairs when he was ready to be a part of the family.
I always allowed the kids time after a spanking to think about it and when they were done it was over - we were good - we could play or work or hang out - whatever to show them they were loved. That was the last time I used a paddle to discipline my kids. 

BTW: my strategy worked. Adam never needed discipline again - not once it the 5 years he was under my roof. I never put a mark on any of my kids but I must have made some kind of mark on them all. They all, each one of my kids, has asked me to make them a paddle for their kids. They have them hung on the living room wall - just like dad.  That is how I know I did a decent job raising them.

Kids need to know you love them - no matter what. They also need discipline to be secure in their knowledge of right and wrong. You never have to hurt them - ever.


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## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

Auntie said:


> I think the title should have been how to intervene. Isn't part of societies problem that no one sees anything or acts on it anymore? If you see a child being talked to and treated like that in public can you imagine what happens in private? I don't agree with the actions but I sure as hell agree with the intent!
> 
> As for the foul language there was a case years ago where someone was asked to stop cussing and they didn't and it went to trial. I tried to find it but had no luck. It was on a river in Georgia (?) I think they were rafting.


Georgia actually allows for more abuse

Georgia defines "reasonable"
corporal punishment as producing "transitory pain and potential
bruising," as long as they are not "excessive or unduly severe and
result only in short-term discomfort."

Swearing is a moot issue.

You have the right to set limits on your own property of what is acceptable. In public it is up to the local government, state or federal government - however many press and speech protections are constitutional so those powers are not delegated to the people. The question is what is causing a disturbance, and what is harassment. It is where speech takes other forms of crime that it becomes "unprotected".

This is a good book

: Word Taboo and Protecting our First Amendment Liberties
By Christopher Fairman

It seems judicially

FRASER
and
MILLER

are means of testing whether language is "criminal"

Texas for instance has this

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.42.htm so you may have been able to arrest in Texas&#8230;

Iowa however has this --- so you may have been arrested in iowa

723.4 DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
A person commits a simple misdemeanor when the person does any of
the following:
1. Engages in fighting or violent behavior in any public place or
in or near any lawful assembly of persons, provided, that
participants in athletic contests may engage in such conduct which is
reasonably related to that sport.
2. Makes loud and raucous noise in the vicinity of any residence
or public building which causes unreasonable distress to the
occupants thereof.
3. Directs abusive epithets or makes any threatening gesture
which the person knows or reasonably should know is likely to provoke
a violent reaction by another.
4. Without lawful authority or color of authority, the person
disturbs any lawful assembly or meeting of persons by conduct
intended to disrupt the meeting or assembly.
5. By words or action, initiates or circulates a report or
warning of fire, epidemic, or other catastrophe, knowing such report
to be false or such warning to be baseless.
6. a. Knowingly and publicly uses the flag of the United
States in such a manner as to show disrespect for the flag as a
symbol of the United States, with the intent or reasonable
expectation that such use will provoke or encourage another to commit
trespass or assault.
b. As used in this section:
(1) "Deface" means to intentionally mar the external
appearance.
(2) "Defile" means to intentionally make physically unclean.

(3) "Flag" means a piece of woven cloth or other material
designed to be flown from a pole or mast.
(4) "Mutilate" means to intentionally cut up or alter so as
to make imperfect.
(5) "Show disrespect" means to deface, defile, mutilate, or
trample.
(6) "Trample" means to intentionally tread upon or
intentionally cause a machine, vehicle, or animal to tread upon.
c. This subsection does not apply to a flag retirement
ceremony conducted pursuant to federal law.
7. Without authority or justification, the person obstructs any
street, sidewalk, highway, or other public way, with the intent to
prevent or hinder its lawful use by others.

In Georgia you may have suffered a tort due to the disturbance caused by the vulgarity however, as the conduct was a private nuisance to you. If everyone was pissed off it would have been a public tort and a mis.. can never spell it.

http://www.jurispub.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=9851

It appears Georgia is the same as Texas but you are still SOL in Iowa.

http://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-11/article-2/16-11-39

4) Without provocation, uses obscene and vulgar or profane language in the presence of or by telephone to a person under the age of 14 years which threatens an immediate breach of the peace.

BUT, the issue is, it probably still wasn't if he swore at you to verbally assault you then in georgia yeah.

But there is a limit on speech that is ok as long as it isn't intended to create disorder.. his speech was used to create order, it appears&#8230; I don't have his reasons, but I would think that it would be to create order, not just to be a jerk. But I could be wrong.

It appears to related to "sedition" and if speech creates violence and riot. If it doesn't cause a furor in the public then it is protected under the 1st amendment.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

Corvus
There was a man in Rome who treated his son so badly that the Senate threw him in prison. The boy appeared before the Senate wearing rags and the senators asked him why.
"As long as my father wears chains, I will wear rags."
The senators were so impressed they pardoned the father. Then word came that a Gaul army was marching on Rome, and the boy asked to go with the army to fight them.
A huge Gaul challenged the Romans to send one to fight him and decide the battle by single combat - the Romans yelled riiiiiight dude uh huh sure I don't think so.
The boy accepted the challenge - and the Romans couldn't deny him.
As the boy went to fight the giant a raven attacked the big Gaul's face, distracting him long enough for the boy to stand a chance, and eventually defeat the Gaul.
The Romans hailed him as Corvus (Raven) and elected him Consul. Corvus served with distinction all his life, and became legend as the honorable son - who redeemed his father and Rome from captivity.
Chew on that one.
I've known some guys from broken homes who grew up in the orphanage (my uncle) or foster homes - each described it as going from the frying pan to the fire. Each were exemplary men - my uncle became a career Marine - and his son became Marine of the Year. 
Chew on that one.

Think hard before breaking another man's ricebowl.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

Therussianbear said:


> Well you have to take a stand someplace,and I take a stand with forum member "Jager".
> I feel he stood up for what was right, and he was careful not to let it get out of hand.
> The rest of you can stand in the dark if you want, or where ever it fits you.


So you think physical assault is OK? Have you considered what might have happened if the guy had been carrying? Jager was extremely lucky. He could just as easily be dead.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

JAGER said:


> Like I said in OP he was squeezing the boy by the neck! That's not physical harm Will2?


Maybe Will2 thinks a time out is called for, don't want to hurt his feelings now do we, he might get upset and do actual harm to a mean little child. All evil needs to grow is for good people to sit back and do nothing, then we can pay for the child to get therapy for God knows how long. Don't we all just love liberal thinking!


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## Therussianbear (Dec 22, 2012)

All Gods Chillin got guns. Marx Brothers 1936 movie Duck Soup.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Sometimes, a stern look does more good than we know.

Cowards who abuse people should be challenged, no doubt. However, you handled this in the wrong way, as you seem to have later realized.
I grab hold of my kids by the back of the neck all the time. Offers a good pressure point to get their attention. They wince every time. Doesn't mean I've done anything more than tweak a nerve.

If I had seen a "father" yell at his kid, I'd stand back and observe.
The second he saw me, he'd evaluate what he did. Where it goes from there is up to him.
If I saw him grab the child by the back of the neck, I might move a little closer. He'd *know* I was watching.
He'd see this, and again, make a decision.

If he proceeded to slam that child into a shelf or onto the floor, he'd wake up in intensive care with various wires and tubes attached...
It is a father's duty to teach and raise the young. I'll give large leeway to a man's choice in doing so.
But there is a line that WILL NOT be crossed in my presence.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Got to swipe that Marx quote. Thanks.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

ekim said:


> Maybe Will2 thinks a time out is called for, don't want to hurt his feelings now do we, he might get upset and do actual harm to a mean little child. *All evil needs to grow is for good people to sit back and do nothing, then we can pay for the child to get therapy for God knows how long. Don't we all just love liberal thinking!*


Doing nothing and doing *something* correctly are two very different things. As other have stated it could have ended badly for the man. What good is he to his own family if his actions land him in a hospital or handcuffs? In my heart, I'm all for the John Wayne heroics but if one's head can prevail, the problem can still be solved without losing blood or money. These days, it's a liberal playing field with lot's of security cameras and cell phone video. If you're going to make a play in public you better be very aware of that fact.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

You have the legal right to intervene if a felony is being committed. If the actions you witness are not felonious then you cannot legally intercede. If you make a mistake you can go to jail and be civilly sued for "false arrest" or for assault. 
You need to know what a felony is or draw the line at grievous bodily harm. (something that would put the victim in the hospital for in-patient care.

I am making no moral or emotional stand on the actions taken or what I might do under similar circumstances. I am just saying what is legally acceptable and the consequences of an erroneous intervention.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Pir8fan said:


> Once you touched that guy, that was assault and I would have had your ass arrested had it been me. You were ok talking about his language but you are not an LEO nor a social service worker. You crossed the line when you assaulted that guy and there's no excuse for that.


You do understand what happens when society no longer enforces societal norms. 
Are you advocating a police state or not I am confused?

Because of thinking like that this country has gone to crap.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

ApexPredator said:


> You do understand what happens when society no longer enforces societal norms.
> Are you advocating a police state or not I am confused?
> 
> Because of thinking like that this country has gone to crap.


He had no legal justification to place his hands on the man.
Are you advocating this type of action?


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Pir8fan said:


> So you think physical assault is OK? Have you considered what might have happened if the guy had been carrying? Jager was extremely lucky. He could just as easily be dead.


Dude 
Are you a certified public account could you confirm or deny that.
Friend there are wolves sheep and sheep dogs. I don't know why sheep insist on hindering or sabotaging their sheep dogs they only thing I can see is plain resentment.
The question really isnt should have intervened but how.

Also curious what it takes to get all those NRA certs thinking I could knock it out in a weekend and take up a little side job you know.


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## Therussianbear (Dec 22, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> Got to swipe that Marx quote. Thanks.


I had never seen it before until I read the book Fire Power, the story of Chris Dempster and Dave Tomkins who were Mercenaries in Angola in the 80s. There are many of these little quote in each chapter.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> He had no legal justification to place his hands on the man.
> Are you advocating this type of action?


Ya since when did 95% of the laws make sense.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Well, my right to not be assaulted has made sense since the dawn of time.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Well, my right to not be assaulted has made sense since the dawn of time.


LOL ask the govt what they think about that. 
Also I feel protecting ones society is a form of self preservation so its a lot like self defense in my book. If it wasn't for that instinct in a lot of good men we wouldn't have a "decent" police force or Military. Dont give me that line about the GOVT being authorized because the Holocaust was authorized by the ruling power at the time and we can both agree that was prolly wrong.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

This has nothing to do with the government. That is a strawman, and will be ignored.

This is about one private citizen placing his hands on another private citizen without legal justification, and your agreement with such action.
It is illegal, and should never be encouraged.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> This has nothing to do with the government. That is a strawman, and will be ignored.
> 
> This is about one private citizen placing his hands on another private citizen without legal justification, and your agreement with such action.
> It is illegal, and should never be encouraged.


So lets flip it around your advocating.
child abuse < physical intervention.
You got to pick a side and saying call the cops is just like saying its not ok for me to do the right thing but its ok for someone else to do it for me.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. Sheep Sheepdogs and Wolves all three were present which was which.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

From the description given, no child abuse took place.
If you choose to think irrationally, and react in the same manner, you will be the one arrested.
I've already stated what would happen if I witnessed actual abuse.

This "sheepdog" BS is getting out of hand. It is an analogy, that is all.
It does NOT grant you the wisdom nor authority to step in on situations you have no business entering.
Too many with big egos and small intelligence use that analogy to justify stupid behavior.
Until legally justified, it is NOT your business to intervene.
If you decide otherwise, don't complain about the consequences.


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## Pir8fan (Nov 16, 2012)

ApexPredator said:


> You do understand what happens when society no longer enforces societal norms.
> Are you advocating a police state or not I am confused?
> 
> Because of thinking like that this country has gone to crap.


Physical assault is OK? The guy he admitted he was carrying. What if the other guy had been carrying too? Overreacting while carrying a firearm is NEVER acceptable. Your thinking is flawed and dangerous.


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## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

For every story of an abused child turning out ok,,, there are 50 that leave the kid with a future of doing the same thing..

where does a child learn how to handle stress anger-- his parents

It is pretty clear that MOST bad folks come from BAD families.. the stats show it time and time again...

that is why we speak about breaking the chain of violence

and frankly - if an abusive man shots a person for them speaking up... that is one man that is going to be removed from his kids life....

Some men are like a bad dog instead of defending the weaker people they look for weakness to attack... I have know people like that - 

Once you have kids - you are no longer the most important person in your house.. you have committed to raising those little buggers to be decent members of society..you do not do that by treating them like stray dogs...

my kids are blood of blood and bone of my bone.. when I have had to spank them it hurts me...

I must admit the only time I almost lost it was when one of them hit my wife in the face...I was about 2 steps away and my wife yelled at me before I got there...


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> From the description given, no child abuse took place.
> If you choose to think irrationally, and react in the same manner, you will be the one arrested.
> I've already stated what would happen if I witnessed actual abuse.
> 
> ...


Hide behind the law if you want. If you lack the personal courage to stand for what is right that's on you.
When they make it illegal to be whatever you are remember you support it.
When you no longer have a sense of personal morals or justice dont complain when no one has them for you.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Pir8fan said:


> Physical assault is OK? The guy he admitted he was carrying. What if the other guy had been carrying too? Overreacting while carrying a firearm is NEVER acceptable. Your thinking is flawed and dangerous.


LOL spoken like a true sheep. 
This thread is a true indicator of the sad state of America.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

ApexPredator said:


> LOL spoken like a true sheep.
> This thread is a true indicator of the sad state of America.


I understand you thoughts, and would like to have intervened if I was in the position and that intervention was needed and just.
However, the law is the law, and those laws regarding this type of situation are correct and not oppressive.
With your attitude on intervention, you will end up either dead or in jail.
Knowing right from wrong and operating within the law when extralegal action is not needed does not make you a sheep.
I have arrested in the past guys who thought the were in the right intervening in altercations they had no business being in.
They could not understand, they felt they were the good guy coming to the rescue.
Good intentions can get you into jail in a hurry.
In some cases if you are carrying in the process, even without showing a weapon, you can be charged with assault while being armed, added 10 years in prison.
You have your life, live it the way you see fit, good luck.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

well if you were in a Sams they are owned by Wal-Mart and all the properties owned by wal mart that I have been in have signs that clearly say no firearms allowed. but hey whatever dude. now if the father flat out busted the kids face, yah I would do something, but you may wonder what about the dad just waiting till the kid got home and then beating the crap out of him, someone did mention this you know the" ride home wait thing"? I think it is best to stay out of other people business. About the right thing well this is an example of why honest non abusive parents can no longer spank the children. food for thought when I was in school it was still OK and practiced regularly, I might add , for the teacher or principal to spank you with a paddle sometimes a real canoe oar for miss behaving and after it happened you did not want to go through that again so you behaved as well as you might get it again when you got home.


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## BagLady (Feb 3, 2014)

PEOPLE. The abuse to the child was verbal/mental, if not physical. Since when is it OK to yell at a 4 year old..."YOU F***kin little SH*T"!! 
Why do parents feel the need to bring children to the stores in the first place?
Did it take both parents to go shopping? NO. Leave the kids at home, with one parent. 
This would eliminate the stress level entirely.


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## phrogman (Apr 17, 2014)

Reading your post it sounds like you were trying to stop a "bully" by being a bully. Would you have done the same if the guy was bigger than you? I think you let your anger and belief that you could to teach this guy a lesson get the best of you. You were trying to teach him how to be respectful in public by assaulting him in public, this makes no sense. Who really needs to be taught the lesson here? I get it, some people need to be punched in the face sometimes, well, some kids need to get spanked too sometimes and it is not our place to get involved if there is no crime being committed. Everyone raises their kids differently, it might not be the best way but it doesn't make it wrong. You dont know the whole story, you're making judgment on a few seconds of exposure.
I'm not trying to bash the OP, just trying to highlight what I see as a third party listening to one side of the story.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I was at The Home Depot the other day and saw this young couple and their small child shopping in the garden center. The wife was verbally abusing the husband who clearly did not want to be at The Home Depot buying perrennials. The wife was a big girl and had obviously not shed the LBs that she had packed on while pregnant and was giving her hubby the riot act. There was no doubt who would win should punches start to fly...

I started to intervene when the young child (he was about 5 years old I guessed) said to me, "ith OK thir, they do thith all the time". He was neither happy nor sad, simply stating the truth. I gave him a thumbs up and moved along, his parents never even realized I was there. I later saw them loading their spoils in their mini-van, the young husband obviously not looking forward to the next 20 years of hell.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Medic33 said:


> well if you were in a Sams they are owned by Wal-Mart and all the properties owned by wal mart that I have been in have signs that clearly say no firearms allowed. but hey whatever dude. now if the father flat out busted the kids face, yah I would do something, but you may wonder what about the dad just waiting till the kid got home and then beating the crap out of him, someone did mention this you know the" ride home wait thing"? I think it is best to stay out of other people business. About the right thing well this is an example of why honest non abusive parents can no longer spank the children. food for thought when I was in school it was still OK and practiced regularly, I might add , for the teacher or principal to spank you with a paddle sometimes a real canoe oar for miss behaving and after it happened you did not want to go through that again so you behaved as well as you might get it again when you got home.


Michigan WalMarts have no such no gun signs


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Slippy said:


> I was at The Home Depot the other day and saw this young couple and their small child shopping in the garden center. The wife was verbally abusing the husband who clearly did not want to be at The Home Depot buying perrennials. The wife was a big girl and had obviously not shed the LBs that she had packed on while pregnant and was giving her hubby the riot act. There was no doubt who would win should punches start to fly...
> 
> I started to intervene when the young child (he was about 5 years old I guessed) said to me, "ith OK thir, they do thith all the time". He was neither happy nor sad, simply stating the truth. I gave him a thumbs up and moved along, his parents never even realized I was there. I later saw them loading their spoils in their mini-van, the young husband obviously not looking forward to the next 20 years of hell.


He musta been a "Chubby Chaser"


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

AquaHull said:


> He musta been a "Chubby Chaser"


I've always told the youngsters, "watch out what you chase, you might catch it"...which is really Slippy Code for "keep your pecker out of things bigger than you"...


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Slippy said:


> I've always told the youngsters, "watch out what you chase, you might catch it"...which is really Slippy Code for "keep your pecker out of things bigger than you"...


Pig!!


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Ahhhh But, sometimes a stiff one does not listen to a damn thing you have to say. LOL


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## Therussianbear (Dec 22, 2012)

AquaHull said:


> Michigan WalMarts have no such no gun signs


If your state has open carry or CC those signs are just information posted,you can be asked to leave but not arrested for it. Now if you refuse to leave it's simple trespassing. Myself I CC so I just walk right past them dumb meaning less signs.
We know where we really can't have our firearms, and them malls plain food joints and common stores are not them.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Prepared One said:


> Ahhhh But, sometimes a stiff one does not listen to a damn thing you have to say. LOL


That made me laugh out loud...


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Prepared One said:


> Ahhhh But, sometimes a stiff one does not listen to a damn thing you have to say. LOL


 hehe


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

ApexPredator said:


> Hide behind the law if you want. If you lack the personal courage to stand for what is right that's on you.
> When they make it illegal to be whatever you are remember you support it.
> When you no longer have a sense of personal morals or justice dont complain when no one has them for you.


You are going to end up in jail if you don't start putting your brain to work before your mouth.
When you are eventually arrested, be sure to tell the judge why he's wrong, and you're right.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

ApexPredator said:


> You do understand what happens when society no longer enforces societal norms.
> Are you advocating a police state or not I am confused?
> 
> Because of thinking like that this country has gone to crap.


Someone speaking in a manner I understand.

Peer pressure. There used to be a lot of it. It didn't take a cop, it took the community. Of course, that was before the community mindset was overwhelmed by the continuous mantra of lies. 
"Who are you to judge?" A good one. The favorite of those who prefer to totally ignore biblical teaching in the first place, attempting to use Jesus' words against those who can discern proper behavior from bad behavior. Who am I to judge where you will spend eternity? Nobody, as I do not know your ultimate future. Who am I to judge your behavior, on the other hand? I am someone who was reared to be a good member of society. If you are going to quote something from the Bible, do it right. Jesus was not telling the good people of society to sit down, shut up and allow the rogues, the renegades and the trash to overwhelm your communities. He was not saying you are too stupid to know right from wrong. As a matter of fact, you know a tree by the fruit it bears, right? Right.

Kauboy is right about the hands-laying aspect of the incident, and Jager even admitted he allowed his righteous indignation to lead him a little too far. Why did he respond in such a manner? I can't say for sure, but I can imagine it was brought about by the glaring, unrestrained public display of improper behavior. Why did the trash feel free to behave in such a manner in public? I wonder; could it be because he feels nobody has the right and duty to protect society, anymore?

Peer pressure used to be expected, and it is expected in a healthy culture. This one isn't healthy, anymore.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> From the description given, no child abuse took place.
> If you choose to think irrationally, and react in the same manner, you will be the one arrested.
> I've already stated what would happen if I witnessed actual abuse.
> 
> ...


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

medic33 said:


> well if you were in a sams they are owned by wal-mart and all the properties owned by wal mart that i have been in have signs that clearly say no firearms allowed.


I don't know where you live, but none of the Walmart's in this state (MA) have such signs including Sam's club.
BJ's has no restrictions either.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

No matter how well the intent more often than not those who intervene in situations allow their passions to trump common sense. It always reminds me of Mark Whalburg claiming that if he had been on flight 93 it would have been a completely different outcome. While I think his heart was in the right place, he far overestimated his own abilities. Todd Beamer did everything any human could have done. Short of a cadre of trained soldiers, that plane was destined to crash. Always temper your response with common sense. "When passion governs, she never governs wisely".


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Stealing that quote!


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

SOCOM42 said:


> I don't know where you live, but none of the Walmart's in this state (MA) have such signs including Sam's club.
> BJ's has no restrictions either.


Signage of that type, regardless of which chain you are talking about, is state specific. For instance, you won't see it NJ because no one can get a carry permit, so signage would be pointless. The signs only make sense in states where concealed carry is common and the store wishes to prohibit it in their stores.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Diver said:


> Signage of that type, regardless of which chain you are talking about, is state specific. For instance, you won't see it NJ because no one can get a carry permit, so signage would be pointless. The signs only make sense in states where concealed carry is common and the store wishes to prohibit it in their stores.


I understand this. My reference was that Walmart in this state does not prohibit.
I was merely informing the poster that it is not a company wide policy like starbucks.
I and my daughter go to Wally World every week, we both have cc permits and carry there and every other store we shop at.
As a retired police officer, I understand the rational of self protection.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

csi-tech said:


> No matter how well the intent more often than not those who intervene in situations allow their passions to trump common sense. It always reminds me of Mark Whalburg claiming that if he had been on flight 93 it would have been a completely different outcome. While I think his heart was in the right place, he far overestimated his own abilities. Todd Beamer did everything any human could have done. Short of a cadre of trained soldiers, that plane was destined to crash. Always temper your response with common sense. "When passion governs, she never governs wisely".


C'mon now ... Marky Mark would have thrown a 'funky punch' - the bad guys would have felt the vibrations and he'd have saved the day!


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

Two sides of every sitch.

I've seen mini gangs of pre-teen kids running riot in shopping malls - obviously truant - and no one does a thing about it. They have realized there is little that can be done to them. Had a couple of them try to mug my mother in Kmart with me standing next to her.

I'm in the grocery store and a very nice looking young lady has a 3yo monster riding in her cart seat. This boy is screeching like a banshee and she pays no attention. He has some kind of toy wagon that he throws - she picks it and gives it to him - he throws it, screeching. Screech Bang SCREECH Screech Bam Screech.

I was completely confounded and got the hale away from them.

Then she brings her brat wagon down my aisle and as she passes the monster throws his toy wagon and hits me in the back. She picks it up and gives it to him without a word and rolls on.

Is that an example of a bad parent who needs a smack?


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Anthonyx said:


> Two sides of every sitch.
> 
> I've seen mini gangs of pre-teen kids running riot in shopping malls - obviously truant - and no one does a thing about it. They have realized there is little that can be done to them. Had a couple of them try to mug my mother in Kmart with me standing next to her.
> 
> ...


Yes

I predict that in a few years this young child will go to school or scouts or some other activity and think that he can just throw things and disrupt the situation without consequence. Someone will dot his eye. He may or may not learn and change his ways, it is too early to tell and its a coin flip. However, his mommy will never learn.


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## Big Country1 (Feb 10, 2014)

Anthonyx said:


> Two sides of every sitch.
> 
> I've seen mini gangs of pre-teen kids running riot in shopping malls - obviously truant - and no one does a thing about it. They have realized there is little that can be done to them. Had a couple of them try to mug my mother in Kmart with me standing next to her.
> 
> ...


Well the child may have had ADHD. Not sticking up for the mother, but its a difficult journey to parent a child with severe ADHD. I know from 1st hand experience. Sometimes you just reach your breaking point and feel hopeless. Like nothing you say or do will ever help. Staying positive can be VERY, VERY, dificult but you have too if the child is going to learn, and behave appropriately. Her ignoring his behaviour will only make it worse.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

One of my nephews used to stay with us during the summer. He was misbehaving pretty bad one day so I took him in a room and sat him down for a little talk, during which he (9yo) asks;
"Are you _threatening me?"_
My jaw hit the floor (his mom is a big lib) and I saw clearly what to do - pack his bags and put him on the plane home.
Not long after that he was misbehaving with his friends in his bedroom and my brother gives him a spanking - the other kids go home and tell mom - who calls the police.
My brother got arrested for child abuse. Not long after they divorced.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Anthonyx said:


> One of my nephews used to stay with us during the summer. He was misbehaving pretty bad one day so I took him in a room and sat him down for a little talk, during which he (9yo) asks;
> "Are you _threatening me?"_
> My jaw hit the floor (his mom is a big lib) and I saw clearly what to do - pack his bags and put him on the plane home.
> Not long after that he was misbehaving with his friends in his bedroom and my brother gives him a spanking - the other kids go home and tell mom - who calls the police.
> My brother got arrested for child abuse. Not long after they divorced.


What's interesting to me about this story is the similarity with the OP. Whether it is the friend's mother calling the cops, or the OP directly intervening, both cases are examples of interfering with parental discipline. Discipline that may be in the best interest of the child.

While we can't know the impact for the OP, we sure know that in this case the child needed some discipline and the interference destroyed the family. I wouldn't be surprised if in the OP's case the ultimate impact of interfering was also highly negative.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

My old Dad used to say, "the threat of a good ass-kicking goes a long way Son". As expected, I was spared no rod as a young child. Fast forward many years, I too, spared no rod upon my Sons. Since we were bred from moderately intelligent stock we learned well from it.

The world has done changed and the rod holds no leverage upon youngsters anymore. The world is just too damn Politically Correct and Upside Down. In Isiah, (to paraphrase), "good will be evil and evil will be good"...


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Anthonyx said:


> One of my nephews used to stay with us during the summer. He was misbehaving pretty bad one day so I took him in a room and sat him down for a little talk, during which he (9yo) asks;
> "Are you _threatening me?"_
> My jaw hit the floor (his mom is a big lib) and I saw clearly what to do - pack his bags and put him on the plane home.
> Not long after that he was misbehaving with his friends in his bedroom and my brother gives him a spanking - the other kids go home and tell mom - who calls the police.
> My brother got arrested for child abuse. Not long after they divorced.


FUBAR Anthonyx, FUBAR


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

My brother called and was upset at me for sending the kid home. Mom was furious at me for hurting his feelings.

I told them that until Jeff was 17 he wouldn't be allowed in my home - no way was I going to risk having a spoiled brat call the police on me. That hit home with my brother but bounced off that lib moron he married.

The breakup ruined them both financially - and twist of all twists (get this) that same moron later called and hinted that she might have to jail my brother for non-support. Yep here I am sending money to that b---h to keep my brother out of jail.

The lady of the house found out and put a halt to that circus act.

Parents shouldn't go medieval on kids in public - but kids who earn it need a belt to their youn gasses too.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

Slippy said:


> My old Dad used to say, "the threat of a good ass-kicking goes a long way Son". As expected, I was spared no rod as a young child. Fast forward many years, I too, spared no rod upon my Sons. Since we were bred from moderately intelligent stock we learned well from it.
> 
> The world has done changed and the rod holds no leverage upon youngsters anymore. The world is just too damn Politically Correct and Upside Down. In Isiah, (to paraphrase), "good will be evil and evil will be good"...


In time all solutions containing politician go rancid and give society the runs - sad to say only an infusion of lamp posts can neutralize the toxins in the soup.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Kids today have no fear of any disapline at all. They know they can't be whipped, slapped, or paddled. Time outs! Please. They are not taught and it is not reinforced. They have no moral compass once the reach adulthood. That's why we can't build prisons fast enough today. I don't have kids becuase I don't have the patience for the little.....darlings. And I know not all will turn out bad. But I see enough of them without disapline in the stores and on the street to know that a lot of them are going to be future TDC inmates. What worries me is how much grief and damage will they cause to society before they actually go to prison.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

A parent can spank their children! there is no law against it. As a matter of fact when I took in a child who had run out of options with family I asked the case worker, his attorney and the prosecuting attorney if my belief in corporal punishment was going to be a problem, they just asked what I used and when I told them it was a lexan paddle 12 inches long and four inches wide not one of them had a problem with it. When we got the boy home I told him there were three things that would not be tolerated: 
1. dishonesty
2. threats
3. physical violence

Either of the first two would be met with the paddle and one swat for each time a lie was told or a threat was made. #3 would be met with the full force of the law and he would be immediately transferred to Juvey Hall which is where he would have gone if we hadn't taken him in.

He lied to me once and stuck something he was not allowed once. He got a swat each time.
When he threatened one of the kids at school they called us and the police - that was in the contract for his freedom. The dumbshit went to juvey because he thought it would be better than my home. His choice, his consequences. When his parents visited he begged them to get him back to my place - it was not in their power to do so. He was convicted and served six years in lockup - until he was 21. He was in and out of trouble after that and the last I heard he was back in jail. He will never know total freedom again.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I once spoke to a young boy about changing his outlook on life, I encouraged him in every way I knew how. We spoke about the car he and his friend had broken into and I told him that he seems to be a good kid with a kind heart. My coworkers and I have dealt with him many times and many times we tried to steer him away from the dark place he was headed. Tonight we are on the hunt for him. He is wanted for murder and my sympathy and compassion are gone. It's an epidemic.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I admire anyone who tries to help these kids and, I am sure, some can be helped.Once again, I have no children so I can offer no special insight. However, I believe the problem starts at thier home at a very early age. Most of the people who have these kids can't take care of themselves and are one step from prison or on welfare as it is, so they have no business having one kid, much less 5 or 6. Once these kids get to someone who could potentially help them they have already been desensitized to societal norms and are doomed to the path their parents set before them. We are left with the aftermath and cleaning up.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

csi-tech said:


> I once spoke to a young boy about changing his outlook on life, I encouraged him in every way I knew how. We spoke about the car he and his friend had broken into and I told him that he seems to be a good kid with a kind heart. My coworkers and I have dealt with him many times and many times we tried to steer him away from the dark place he was headed. Tonight we are on the hunt for him. He is wanted for murder and my sympathy and compassion are gone. It's an epidemic.


The worst problem kids I ever dealt with have grown up to be paranoid schizophrenics. Their father was schizophrenic and committed suicide. Their paternal grandfather was also a suicide. There are clearly genetic causes to some, perhaps many, forms of mental illness, and our mental health capabilities are broken, so we have large numbers of severely mentally ill people, who mostly would have died early in life 200 years ago, running around loose.

Such kids often need to be physically stopped in order to be disciplined. Words won't do it. When the OP intervened there is a good chance he was interfering with a parent who was dealing with an ADD or ADHD child headed for an eventual bipolar or schizophrenic diagnosis.

By making it clear that his parents cannot discipline him, he may have eliminated any hope the child will grow up into a normal, self-controlled, adult.


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## Mish (Nov 5, 2013)

You know what, I'm sick of kids being labeled ADHD, ADD and ODD. This is not me saying that there aren't kids out there that need help. I'm just saying as a society it's become easier to label and drug our children than figure out what the real problem is. Is it just bad parenting? The highly processed, chemical filled food we feed them? Or is it a gold mine for drug companies? Anyway...end of rant!! lol


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> You are going to end up in jail if you don't start putting your brain to work before your mouth.
> When you are eventually arrested, be sure to tell the judge why he's wrong, and you're right.


If I put my brain to work I wouldnt be in the desert risking my life. Id be in an office/lab/surgical ward making a ton of money and banging my secretary and her friends behind my wifes back.
Cold logic doesn't get you anywhere but anarchy. 
Whats the difference/similarities between facing a judge for stopping child abuse or facing a military raid for being a prepper/extremist. Ones illegal one will be soon. Neither are wrong.
I dont want to argue anymore but we defend ourselves pretty dam well. We have failed to defend our society and will soon enough pay the bill (which is why we joined this forum). If its illegal then the laws should change and until people start acting like they should change, they wont.
final comment I swear.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I understand the issue of labeling kids ADD when they aren't is a real issue. However there are kids with mental health issues or simple behavioral issues. The point is who knows best what discipline is required to bring a kid under control? The parent who has known the child his entire life and who is ultimately responsible or some guy who observes the parent and child for a few seconds in public.

The OP decided he knew better than the parent based on nothing more than a few seconds observation. That's hubris. The issue of ADD is just an example. Did the OP know whether the kid had ADD? Does he even know now whether the kid has ADD? Does he even know why the parent was upset with the child's behavior? Apparently he thinks he is capable of determining all of this instantly and making better judgment than the parent as to what is best for the child.


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## Medic33 (Mar 29, 2015)

Mish said:


> You know what, I'm sick of kids being labeled ADHD, ADD and ODD. This is not me saying that there aren't kids out there that need help. I'm just saying as a society it's become easier to label and drug our children than figure out what the real problem is. Is it just bad parenting? The highly processed, chemical filled food we feed them? Or is it a gold mine for drug companies? Anyway...end of rant!! lol


ah-ha, finally yes mam that's what I think put a kid of behavior drugs and you got a addict cash supply for life evil, evil I say.


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## Anthonyx (Mar 14, 2015)

Lordy I was the ADHD kid from teenage werewolf that the Blob begat.

They didn't call it ADHD then. It was "daydreaming" - looking out the window yearning for recess when I could slug that softball and run like rin-tin-tin around those bases and nail my buddies with a stinging dodge-ball.

I hear they got rid of recess - that would have driven me BONKERS.

Teachers used to jump my stuff daily but all that changed when JH came and a C would get me booted from football, baseball, track and swim team - I buckled down and got A's and B's after that.


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