# Hand to hand



## MasterAssassinwy (May 15, 2014)

Which method of hand-to-hand method of combat is the best for an apocalypse?


----------



## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

The one where my *hand *uses my finger to pull the trigger and the ensuing bullet travels at a high velocity and blows the head off which is located above the *hand* of the "zombie". Loosely defined as "hand to hand" combat.


----------



## MrsInor (Apr 15, 2013)

I agree with Slippy. Could use a hand grenade too.


----------



## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

"Best" is subjective.
None are objective.
Many are effective.

I just did that without trying, haha.

Most of the mixed martial arts styles are designed around actual combat use, unlike many others which are more "art" than "martial".
Krav Maga and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are two popular ones taught to military.
Learning something with handheld weapons couldn't hurt. A weapon, even if just a stick, is a force multiplier, and should never be overlooked.


----------



## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

If you are in a "fair" fight your tactics suck. Hand to hand combat is for when everyone is out of bullets and the only things left are clubs.
At that point, if I am still alive, I will grab my crossbow, ammonia, or diatomaceous earth and kill, wound or blind the bad guy while staying out of his reach. At 63 I don't fight well on "equal" terms so I am more likely to kill someone than to fight. One of the privileges of age and wisdom.


----------



## keith9365 (Apr 23, 2014)

"Never pick a fight with an old guy. He's to old to fight and will just kill you." I usually have a gun, I always have a knife. Laying on of hands anywhere other than church will get you hurt. I plan on coming home. But to your question, look into the ju jitsu/MMA type of self defence. NEVER TRY TO KICK ABOVE THE WAIST!! Too easy to get your foot trapped and end up in a bad place. End it quick by going for eyes, throat, or joints. This aint John Wayne in a western. Hit first, hit hard, hit fast, and get the hell outa dodge! Do unto others before they do unto you then run like hell before he recovers or the cops show up.


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Having a Weapon the fires a bullet in my hand VS your hand. Good luck ninja


----------



## Reptilicus (Jan 4, 2014)

Whatever method is necessary to ensure mine and my family's survival!


----------



## Smokin04 (Jan 29, 2014)

Kauboy said:


> "Best" is subjective.
> None are objective.
> Many are effective.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. I've taken the gambit of martial arts. I'm good with most weapons, and very good (surgical) with a couple. The absolution of running out of bullets will eventually strike everyone. Without martial arts training, it becomes an unfair fight almost immediately. I had a systematic approach to my martial arts training. I started with ranged arts (karate, tae kwon do, kickboxing) when I was younger (11-21 years old) and then transitioned to multiple attacker arts like Tang Soo Do and Aikido in my 20's. In the Air ForceI learned close range arts like Combat Krav Maga, and Combat ju-jitsu...neither of which I liked or favored. Given one on one wrestling/combatives, they are necessity though. I prefer the ranged arts to keep my opponents out of reach from me. However that is just my preference.

Of course, you'll have to dodge the thousands of rounds of expended projectiles, to go toe to toe with me. That's my attitude.


----------



## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

Tea cup and saucer.


----------



## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

Any training is better than no training at all
I know my family back in Hawaii knew bj penn before he was famous. I hear hes on a fox tv show now.maybe I should watch.


----------



## Cqb101 (Sep 21, 2014)

There may not be one best method of hand-to-hand combat...for an apocalypse...but with that in mind, here are a few thoughts...

I may be the exception here as I have trained in over 3 dozen arts & combative systems for 40+ years and been teaching a half dozen of them for 25+years...have done all the hard styles(Japanese, Korean) but focus mostly on quicker styles now that don't rely on power, but instead rely on quickness and reflex training...such as Wing Chun Kung Fu, JKD(Bruce Lee's system), Filipino knife and stick fighting, Indonesian systems, and also use Krav Maga, Thai boxing, and such...I feel these arts will train you better for situations/scenarios that will require quick action and quick thinking...
For survival preppers, I would recommend to focus on striking... low kicks, punches, forearm strikes especially to opponent's neck, basic standing grappling, basic groundwork to survive and then get up off ground as quickly as possible(don't get hung up on MMA you see on TV)...learn some offensive and defensive knife and stick work...those are the modern day weapons...no one carries samurai swords any more...
Learn some basic boxing if you can ...stay away from high kicks...only good for conditioning and Hollywood...
Study any Filipino art that you can...should help you tremendously in your training, depending on the instructor...
Krav Maga is Israeli, but comprised of techniques pulled from many different systems...main focus is to train for different types of attacks on street or battlefield...pretty direct and to the point as to dealing with an opponent...no sparring or rules...mostly focuses on serious attacks and serious counter measures...
Hope this helps any one with questions about this type of training and preparedness...let me know if you have more questions...will try to respond


----------



## big paul (Jul 14, 2014)

fighting whether "hand to hand" or a firefight should be the act of last resort when we have run out of options, my first option is to turn around and go in the opposite direction....fast!!


----------



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Slippy said:


> The one where my *hand *uses my finger to pull the trigger and the ensuing bullet travels at a high velocity and blows the head off which is located above the *hand* of the "zombie". Loosely defined as "hand to hand" combat.


 Must second this. All that self defense stuff is good physical training and can't really hurt unless you start thinking you are the ninja master . Real fights are not fair .
You practice stand off range that means you make sure you drop them before what ever weapon they use can reach you.
Over whelming force wins.
Go to the gym and work out a few rounds and on the way home stop at the range.


----------



## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

IMO the only place for a "fair" fight is a sporting event. I believe some of the biggest benefits from martial arts is the physical and mental conditioning, not the physical fighting skills. I am not a practitioner of any martial art, but I would not discourage anyone from doing so. That being said along with being notsoyoung any more, if given a choice between a 1911 with a buttload of ammo or a black belt in whatever, guess which one I would choose?


----------



## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Must second this. All that self defense stuff is good physical training and can't really hurt unless you start thinking you are the ninja master . Real fights are not fair .
> You practice stand off range that means you make sure you drop them before what ever weapon they use can reach you.
> Over whelming force wins.
> Go to the gym and work out a few rounds and on the way home stop at the range.


Just to add to your post, I was on a forum where they were talking about gun control and some whack-a-doodle said that he had a black belt some martial art, and if some coward with a gun ever came into his house he would kill him with his bare hands. You have to be really fast to karate chop those bullets heading towards you.


----------



## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Avoidance is the best tactic. IMO.


----------



## Gunner's Mate (Aug 13, 2013)

Death by Tea Cup


retired guard said:


> Tea cup and saucer.


----------



## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I've been in more fights with suspects than I'm sure I can recall. It seems that the key points I have learned are: use overwhelming physical strength to overcome your opponent immediately. If you can't do that, let them tire themselves out first. Almost every fight will end up on the ground at some point and if you are on the losing end you had better increase the level of force you are using or withdraw. Most Police defensive tactics are based on marshal arts. Mainly Aikido which uses your opponents momentum and energy against him and bends limbs and joints in directions that were never intended. It has worked extremely well for me this past 25 years so I can't recommend a good Aikido Dojo enough.


----------



## shootbrownelk (Jul 9, 2014)

Standing well behind with a 12 ga. shotgun while Steven Segal and Jackie Chan do your fighting for you. Run away when required.
I agree with Keith's comment. "Do unto others....then SPLIT"!


----------



## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

Its all about reaction time. Being alert and knowing what you are doing with a gun. Its mental too, making a decision to shoot or not to.


----------



## Zed (Aug 14, 2014)

until the opponent is at range...the best combat technique is firearms technique...
if it happens to be close combat situation...learn knife fighting..
whatever martial arts you want to learn...its mere conditioning of mind and body and preparing for 'wcs'
I've learned karate, judo and traditional Indian staff fighting...but believe me..don't believe Hollywood movies or mma fights..in real life pinning down any person is not good option
in real life situation..one shot one kill...whether its gun or knife is what will save you to see another day and your family


----------



## Zed (Aug 14, 2014)




----------



## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

The 21 foot rule comes from "surviving edged weapons". If an attacker is within 21' of you and is skilled with edged weapons he is an imminent and deadly threat. It is recommended that you use something other than a gun, namely your hands.


----------



## Smokin04 (Jan 29, 2014)

I have seen the video Zed posted before. It is a really interesting video to watch...especially when the gun expert starts jumping and rolling around. My only caveat to the demo is that they are EXPECTING the attack...they're doing a demo. I very seriously doubt that either of them would be able to effectively react in a real world scenario when the attacker, time, and place of the attack are unknown. These two might be better than a guy with no training at all (which is true for all people with training). Sure you can be mentally alert (good SA) but surprise attacks are very difficult (if not impossible) to predict and react to. That's why surprise is such a key strategy in battle (and war).


----------



## Zed (Aug 14, 2014)

Smokin04, what you said is absolutely correct...hence i have ordered slash puncture proof vests and neck protection garments...
my uncle was attacked by knife ..and i've personally seen the wound up close...if one can save torso and neck...then knife's surprise attack can be less threatening...
the video is meant for SHTF situation..
in SHTF every other person is suspected enemy..so getting surprise attacked is minimal..


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

James m said:


> Its all about reaction time. Being alert and knowing what you are doing with a gun. Its mental too, making a decision to shoot or not to.


Good point. Can only add..extensive and repetitive realistic combat firearms training tends to dramatically reduce the time spent on the decision making aspect of the equation making it a much more automatic response to a threat. Muscle memory as they say. Practice..practice..practice.


----------



## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

Having been in several altercations, street, jail , prison, bars. No one thing comes to mind except for the later years, Brazilian Jiu jitsu has served me well as does wrestling. But I only ever used it to subdue not injure or maim. Violence of action has been key to all of my social encounters with undesired folks. I would rather fight you in a bar, full of glasses, bottles, stools, chairs and pool q's than in a ring.


----------



## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

My black belt has a Sig .40 attached..lol.


----------



## Will2 (Mar 20, 2013)

I haven't experienced an apocalypse yet so I can't say for sure. 
I have been experimenting with some security training. Stanard security guard courses teach. Baton various types which are similar to fillipino stick fighting basic strikes. With some fencing thrown in you have basics. Knife fighting tecniques using a 6 point by four method will cover basics.

Knowing disarms is also commonly taught for security.

Krav maga is a way to quickly defend against common grapples it also teaches optimal force strikes and no nonsense attacks to incapacitate.

what you get from form such as krav maga is exercise to stay fit. core strengthening and upper body are large elements of krav basics. the whole system was streamline to teach people in the short period of time essentials.

different systems will teach you different ways to approach combat.

I am new to to kapap as of today which is also known as lotar.

it should be noted the drama to take solomons from jujitsu judo karate muy thai wrestling and boxing with a touch of realism.

if you want something quick and dirty krav maga is definitely what you're looking for

hey reminder there are a lot of branches off from the old style

check to see what is in your local area

Kapap 
Lotar
Krav haganah
Krav magen
Krav maga
Hisardut

we're proper something along the lines of kapap maybe better see you then school of krav maga do to the weapons training this incorporated standard into kabobas opposed to grab the witch me not have weapons training element I knew for my local probably the school theyhave special weapons training seminars run periodically but the weapons training is not part of the regular training

on the contrary kapap and lotar tend to be geared more towards military law enforcement and weapons training is a standard elements of the training

there's quite a bit of politics behind everything all I can do is suggest you check out your local combat locationsand find out what specific training they're offering somebody off for dropping my son just take it on the check it out and if you find what you like that's good

and sorry about the text to speech hopefully you understand something

you got me shakin to learn the basics stripes and how to get out of holds

I actually think thats a stomach needs offering some advantages for nonlethal confrontations well krav offers quick disabling and escaping maneuvers

the main problem is that if you use some of these methods effectively in self-defense you could get into some trouble with the law situation where its day todaydue to the extremes of force that can be used or unleashed by reaction alone

in an apocalypse situation though if you're aiming to take out the people we can do much better

there are just so many flavors of Krav Maga I suggest you check with your local curriculums are take the one that best suits your needs

if you have more time consider an old fashioned form of martial arts or whatever tickles your fancy

if you just want to train quickly then I suggest something like krav maga or whatever you bmQ is.http://www.worldkapaplotarfederation.com/QuickNews.asp


----------



## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

csi-tech said:


> The 21 foot rule comes from "surviving edged weapons". If an attacker is within 21' of you and is skilled with edged weapons he is an imminent and deadly threat. It is recommended that you use something other than a gun, namely your hands.


The "21 foot rule"? Are you trying to tell me that if someone with a knife is within 21 FEET of me, my best defense is my HANDS? I think I will hang on to my 1911 and use it.


----------



## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Sockpuppet said:


> I hope that you don't mean to avoid conflict at any and all costs.


I think (or hope) that what he is trying to say is not to go looking for a fight, which I agree with. The "Johnny Badasses" who go around trying to intimidate others and try to get whatever they want through violence or the threat of violence will not last very long IMO. Someone will get tired of him and just shoot him in the back or cut his throat while he is sleeping.


----------



## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

I am going to scream


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> The "21 foot rule"? Are you trying to tell me that if someone with a knife is within 21 FEET of me, my best defense is my HANDS? I think I will hang on to my 1911 and use it.


I think this rule applies when you get caught off guard by a highly trained attacker.


----------



## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

Their is no magic ninja bull shit.
Blunt force to bridge of nose. Eyes. Throat. Groin. Base of skull at spine.
You call it nig gin stew if you want to.


----------



## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

Sockpuppet said:


> Having been part of the Tueller drill on more than a few occasions, even when ready, it doesn't leave a whole lot of time to unholster, aim, and shoot.
> 
> Here is just a very basic google video search upon the subject.


Your link didn't work on my phone so I googled it myself. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Interesting drill.


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

the interesting things about the 21 foot rule....

So the bad guy wants to kill you and he decides to show you the weapon at 21 feet - why not keep it hidden until 2 feet

what happens at 24 feet

how many times did they test this before they discovered 21 feet

Were the gun holders told they could not start reacting until the knife was draw...if they knew it was a drill they were already expecting to draw... SO chances are 21 feet should really be 35 feet

I have heard about this "21 foot" rule many times...and when I hear it i think CRAP! 

I have no doubt that a knife is dangerous close in..but so is a club, a brick, etc etc etc

Day to day life it is hard to defend yourself against the crazy person that will kill folks at random and close up while you are in line at sears, walking down a busy street..

SHTF event..the number of folks that I will allow CLOSE to me without me being ready to DEFEND MYSELF AT ALL TIMES...will be limited to family and friends and people that I have checked closely..

so what is the best hand to hand....a Gun in my hand and distance


----------



## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

And who conducts these tests? People whose livelihood is teaching others hand to hand combat. I'll stick with my firearm, thank you.


----------



## Jeep (Aug 5, 2014)

You can what if thee drill all you want. The point is 21 ft and closer you have little chance if caught of guard or even may be somewhat aware.


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Best" is subjective.
None are objective.
Many are effective."

That's my favorite. Yo Kun Foo be strong ~

I got me a few college boys and their outlaw friends who look at dumb, dirty and mean as a disease, bought 'em a Buncha non firearm weapons (they all have guns already) did a kung fu games deal, pointed out a few things about medicine and chemistry and promised 'em that very soon, they would not have to practice. (I'm always tryin' to have fun in dang 'pokkyklipse! Dang me!)
Kung Fu Games Club by Kun Long - GoFundMe


----------



## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Notsoyoung said:


> And who conducts these tests? People whose livelihood is teaching others hand to hand combat. I'll stick with my firearm, thank you.


It is nothing more than physics. It takes time to recognize the threat and react to that threat.



> The 21-Foot Rule was formulated by timing subjects beginning their headlong run from a dead stop on a flat surface offering good traction and officers standing stationary on the same plane, sidearm holstered and snapped in. The FSRC has extensively measured action and reaction times under these same conditions. Among other things, the Center has documented the time it takes officers to make 20 different actions that are common in deadly force encounters. Here are some of the relevant findings that the FSRC applied in reevaluating the 21-Foot Rule:
> 
> Once he perceives a signal to do so, the AVERAGE officer requires 1.5 seconds to draw from a snapped Level II holster and fire one unsighted round at center mass. Add 1/4 of a second for firing a second round, and another 1/10 of a second for obtaining a flash sight picture for the average officer.
> The fastest officer tested required 1.31 seconds to draw from a Level II holster and get off his first unsighted round.The slowest officer tested required 2.25 seconds.
> ...


Edged Weapon Defense: Is or was the 21-foot rule valid? (Part 1)

Ignoring the need for being able to defend oneself with one's hands would be akin to me believing I could be able to effectively maintain a helicopter by being really good at nothing more than a screwdriver.

Yes, I carry whenever I leave the house (unless going to work, at Ft. Rucker), but I do not expect the handgun to get me out of every situation. Not initially, anyway. I might have to use my hands until an opening presents itself so that I can draw and fire, and fire repeatedly until the threat is no longer moving.


----------



## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Hey! Hand to hand includes things the hand can throw! Ahahaha!


----------



## Maine-Marine (Mar 7, 2014)

I am going to start walking around with a baseball..as soon as somebody pulls a knife on me and raises it like an ice pick and starts towards me..I am going to beam them in the forehead with a 86 mph fast ball...

As mentioned before..the police officer in the test KNEW that they were going to have to draw their weapon... as soon as you insert yourself into an experiment you change the outcome


----------

