# Tactical setup on a really tight budget



## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)




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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

While most of the pistols choices talked about are solid pistols, the High Point's are not, as is the carbine. High Point and the word quality should not be used in the same sentence. And I say that from years of experience and part of that experience not only in using them, but selling and buying them and seeing the problems that come from incredibly cheap build standards. Anybody staking their lives on them, deciding to go so cheap in firearms choices instead of taking a few less trips to Mcdonalds and save for better firearms, obviously puts a low value on their and their families lives. A person can still find S&W M&P15 Sports for around $600 and they are a solid AR for money in my experience though lacking some of the standard AR aspects.


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

I would have to disagree. My buddy has a c9 and a 9mm carbine, I've got lots of trigger time with both. I the years hes took it out I've seen a jam and I had a jam both caused my a magazine. when he got rig of the magazine he got rid of the problem. I've saw a guy with a new Kimber give him more misfeeds than my buddies C9, yeah the Kimber was new, but so was the C9. If you say the Kimber just needs a breakin period then so does the C9. If anything I would hold a $1000 gun to
gun to I higher standard than a $200 gun. The more expensive one should have worked better out of the box. Its not only about your gear but how good you are with it


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I have my late dad's Colt Model 1903 32ACP that was made in 1918. Still shoots, and shoots well.
I have a Colt Police Positive in 32-20 that was made in 1921 I use as a farm gun. Still works fine.
I have a 40 year old Colt Series 70 Government Model MkIV 45 ACP that I would bet my life on.
And some S&W and Ruger revolvers that date as far back as 1959.
See the pattern here? Buy quality made firearms from quaility oriented companies and you will be well served.
When my very life someday may depend on the firearm in my hand, I ain't got time for low-buck bang sticks.


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## Meangreen (Dec 6, 2012)

I have never owned a Hipoint. I have considered buying one as a camping/trunk gun but as soon as a put my hands on one at the gun shop, I say, “No way!” They are so bulky and heavy with so many plastic parts that I can’t bring myself to buy one. If you look at the dedicated forums to Hipoint there are a lot of people that love them. I guess if you have never fired a firearm before and it’s your first taste of a firearm that maybe it would be acceptable. I have been lucky in that my father taught me to shoot with very fine firearms and the government has seen fit to issue me some nice hardware over the years so I guess I’m spoiled. 
I do believe that people revert back to what they know and the military has a lot to do with that. The older crowd loves their 1911’s and M14’s. The newer crowd likes the composite plastic handguns and their M4’s. I know that the people that I have instructed tend to stay with what they are taught with. I tend to recommend the big names in firearms for quality like Glock, Springfield, S&W, ect and tell people to avoid names like Hipoint, Jimenez Arms, and Phoenix Arms because of quality issues. I won’t stake my life on a firearm that has jammed even once and or has questionable workmanship. 
My choice in handgun is Glock. I’m a left hand shooter and find the 1911 a bit awkward to manipulate. I like in a high stress situation to have a KISS simple firearm like Glock. My issued weapon for work is the H&K P2000 and I find it to be acceptable but not great. I do believe that the firearms companies cut corners on government contracts to make as much as possible, and the quality is not the same as the civilian market. I had an H&K come apart on me at about the 6,000 round count and had to be issued a new weapon. When I carried a Baretta 96D, I went through three of them in a five year period. 
I do believe that when a firearm is purchased it should be the best that can be afforded. I would look at the used market before I would ever purchase a Saturday night special like a Hipoint.


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

If High Point came up for sale on the forums I frequent, I had the funds available, and was in the market for a gun I'd probably buy it. Though I'd look upon it as a barter piece not a firearm I'm going to depend my life on. They may be fine for that, I don't knock "cheap" products because I've had some success where it seems other find complaints. A great example is the polymer lower receivers I bought in bulk a few years ago - I have used 3 of them with great success and ended up selling / trading 3 of them for more money then I paid for the group. 

It seems to me if I was on a really tight budget, nothing was in the news suggesting "STHF" tomorrow (except solar flares) then I'd probably wait and go from $200 to $400 and get the Ruger P95. Though bigger and harder to conceal they just have "tank" like reputation you want from a firearm that will last like ricepaddy's old one's. I already have a number of P series (89, 95) and just have not had one ever fail me. As for trying for one caliber from hand gun to rifle the only one I've ever had that made sense was 357 using a lever and a revolver. Unfortunately that combo right now is at least $1200 and more like $1500 with ammo and reloading components / kits.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

Fuzzee said:


> While most of the pistols choices talked about are solid pistols, the High Point's are not, as is the carbine. High Point and the word quality should not be used in the same sentence. And I say that from years of experience and part of that experience not only in using them, but selling and buying them and seeing the problems that come from incredibly cheap build standards. Anybody staking their lives on them, deciding to go so cheap in firearms choices instead of taking a few less trips to Mcdonalds and save for better firearms, obviously puts a low value on their and their families lives. A person can still find S&W M&P15 Sports for around $600 and they are a solid AR for money in my experience though lacking some of the standard AR aspects.


I'd like to know where you shop! Yesterday at Cal Ranch I saw an M&P 15 for $898.99 gas driven no dust cover no bolt assist. To be fair they also had a WASR 10 for $999.99.


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I have my late dad's Colt Model 1903 32ACP that was made in 1918. Still shoots, and shoots well.
> I have a Colt Police Positive in 32-20 that was made in 1921 I use as a farm gun. Still works fine.
> I have a 40 year old Colt Series 70 Government Model MkIV 45 ACP that I would bet my life on.
> And some S&W and Ruger revolvers that date as far back as 1959.
> ...


do you see the huge problem it you patteren when comepared to a firearm line that was started in 1992?


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## Blinddog (Dec 16, 2012)

IMHO a Highpoint is a piece of junk. Its right there with Bryco and Jennings pistols which are not even good throw aways. If you are going to purchase a inexpensive pistol look around and find a good used one at your LGS.


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

Meangreen said:


> I have never owned a Hipoint. I have considered buying one as a camping/trunk gun but as soon as a put my hands on one at the gun shop, I say, "No way!" They are so bulky and heavy with so many plastic parts that I can't bring myself to buy one. If you look at the dedicated forums to Hipoint there are a lot of people that love them. I guess if you have never fired a firearm before and it's your first taste of a firearm that maybe it would be acceptable. I have been lucky in that my father taught me to shoot with very fine firearms and the government has seen fit to issue me some nice hardware over the years so I guess I'm spoiled.
> I do believe that people revert back to what they know and the military has a lot to do with that. The older crowd loves their 1911's and M14's. The newer crowd likes the composite plastic handguns and their M4's. I know that the people that I have instructed tend to stay with what they are taught with. I tend to recommend the big names in firearms for quality like Glock, Springfield, S&W, ect and tell people to avoid names like Hipoint, Jimenez Arms, and Phoenix Arms because of quality issues. I won't stake my life on a firearm that has jammed even once and or has questionable workmanship.
> My choice in handgun is Glock. I'm a left hand shooter and find the 1911 a bit awkward to manipulate. I like in a high stress situation to have a KISS simple firearm like Glock. My issued weapon for work is the H&K P2000 and I find it to be acceptable but not great. I do believe that the firearms companies cut corners on government contracts to make as much as possible, and the quality is not the same as the civilian market. I had an H&K come apart on me at about the 6,000 round count and had to be issued a new weapon. When I carried a Baretta 96D, I went through three of them in a five year period.
> I do believe that when a firearm is purchased it should be the best that can be afforded. I would look at the used market before I would ever purchase a Saturday night special like a Hipoint.





Meangreen said:


> I have never owned a Hipoint. I have considered buying one as a camping/trunk gun but as soon as a put my hands on one at the gun shop, I say, "No way!" They are so bulky and heavy with so many plastic parts that I can't bring myself to buy one. If you look at the dedicated forums to Hipoint there are a lot of people that love them. I guess if you have never fired a firearm before and it's your first taste of a firearm that maybe it would be acceptable. I have been lucky in that my father taught me to shoot with very fine firearms and the government has seen fit to issue me some nice hardware over the years so I guess I'm spoiled.
> I do believe that people revert back to what they know and the military has a lot to do with that. The older crowd loves their 1911's and M14's. The newer crowd likes the composite plastic handguns and their M4's. I know that the people that I have instructed tend to stay with what they are taught with. I tend to recommend the big names in firearms for quality like Glock, Springfield, S&W, ect and tell people to avoid names like Hipoint, Jimenez Arms, and Phoenix Arms because of quality issues. I won't stake my life on a firearm that has jammed even once and or has questionable workmanship.
> My choice in handgun is Glock. I'm a left hand shooter and find the 1911 a bit awkward to manipulate. I like in a high stress situation to have a KISS simple firearm like Glock. My issued weapon for work is the H&K P2000 and I find it to be acceptable but not great. I do believe that the firearms companies cut corners on government contracts to make as much as possible, and the quality is not the same as the civilian market. I had an H&K come apart on me at about the 6,000 round count and had to be issued a new weapon. When I carried a Baretta 96D, I went through three of them in a five year period.
> I do believe that when a firearm is purchased it should be the best that can be afforded. I would look at the used market before I would ever purchase a Saturday night special like a Hipoint.


I agree if you have the money go for it. I will say first think I own several guns so its not like I only have one and don't know anything about firearms. However If you one several guns you must know just getting something with a high price tag will not mean there are no problems. Look at Kimber Ive seen more FTF with Kimber than HiPoint but it cost 5 times more so again its not gust price tag. My favorite is my USP .45 but I prefer to carry a Glock 17. Bashing a firearm for cost is also turning heads from a Mosin Negant, or Maverick 88. you also mis the point of standardizing with neighbors with caliber and guns if possible, for some it would be the only affordable way to go. I prefer a Glock and own one but I assume you have seen the prices today even for a used on. anyone who thinks they can do it alone is prepping to fail and failing to prep at the same time


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## Infidel (Dec 22, 2012)

I like RPD's take on this. My collection is much like his and I will add that I don't much care for pistol caliber carbines except under very limited circumstances. I think a carbine chambered in a rifle caliber is much more sensible in a SHTF situation. In this vein I would suggest an entry level AR if that's your thing, for me the choice was a Mini-14 simply because I don't care for the AR design. Yes, they are more expensive but they will hold up better than the Hi Point Carbines and offer more range and power. This may or may not be a consideration to you but for me pistol cartridges serve one purpose only and that's to be used in a handgun to fight my way to a rifle.

-Infidel


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Sticking with my AR'S for their designed duty. The AK and SKS will do for shorter range.


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm am also a AR guy, but even then remember why the M1 Garand was replaced with the M14 and why the Mosin Nagant was relaced with the SKS, these rifles were effective at long range but combat was close. for that reason I think a carbine will do just fine. another thing to think about an AR is a great gun but you need to get a quality one, some cheaper manufactured AR's are not reliable either. and the final thing that no one seems to talk about is the same caliber for both firearms, just stock up on that one caliber


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

have you seen the prices on used guns lately? I can shell out the cash of a few more AR's or HK's but not everyone can do that. maybe you should listen to the vid, there was alot of different points to consider. I assume by the comment you just put in a quick 2 cents. Have you notice the economy is in the crapper and gun prices are still skyhigh? I would think on a prepper forum there would be more guys talking about standardizing, common calibers, community defense and looking at using limited resourses, guess I was wrong


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

I have shot Colt, Ruger, S&W, Stevens, ATI, RIA and a host of other firearms in my 68 years.

Highpoint is the only one that when I squeezed the trigger, . . . it failed to fire, . . . then I tried it again, . . . still no "bang", . . . started to lay it on the table, . . . Uh-huh, . . . "BANG".

My finger was off the trigger when it happened. 

I haven't shot one since, . . . don't ever plan on shooting another.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

I won't question your experience, still from my own experience I have had no problems, I had a Colt Single Action Cowboy, and it would jam, it was a single action! things like that happen. Im sure in your 68 years you have had multiple issues with firearms. even the 5 gun shops I go to on a regular basis sell them all the time. 2 small gunshops I go to say they sell at least 1-3 a month, in the 28 years he has had his shop he has had 3 issue with HiPoint, and one was because the idiot messes up his ghost sights trying to mod it. he says he was had more issue with Taurus , Ruger and S&W. 

For the rest of you guy reading this anyone of you who think I am making up a story and a gun shop owner look up TexGuns in Austin Tx and call him up if you are wondering about reliablility ask a guy who has to deal with them whenever they are purchased form him and he sells alot


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

thomasdangerpowers said:


> I'm am also a AR guy, but even then remember why the M1 Garand was replaced with the M14 and why the Mosin Nagant was relaced with the SKS, these rifles were effective at long range but combat was close. for that reason I think a carbine will do just fine. another thing to think about an AR is a great gun but you need to get a quality one, some cheaper manufactured AR's are not reliable either. and the final thing that no one seems to talk about is the same caliber for both firearms, just stock up on that one caliber


Ummm. The M1 Garand was replaced by the M14 (which used the same operating system) because it (1) had a detachable magazine, and (2) the military wanted a selective fire rifle.
The Mosin Nagant was replaced by the SKS (which was in turn replaced by the AK47) because the Russian military realized the superiority of a gas operated magazine fed semi automatic rifle.
None of these choices were made because "combat was close".
And how the M16 ended up being foisted upon the Army and Marines is a whole 'nother story.


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## retired guard (Mar 7, 2013)

dwight55 said:


> I have shot Colt, Ruger, S&W, Stevens, ATI, RIA and a host of other firearms in my 68 years.
> 
> Highpoint is the only one that when I squeezed the trigger, . . . it failed to fire, . . . then I tried it again, . . . still no "bang", . . . started to lay it on the table, . . . Uh-huh, . . . "BANG".
> 
> ...


I'm no fan of the High Point but your experience sounds like a "hangfire". This is an ammo malfunction not a weapon malfunction. I've had one in a Remington Rand 45acp pistol it can be pretty disconcerting. I was not amused.


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## MI.oldguy (Apr 18, 2013)

delete please.


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Ummm. The M1 Garand was replaced by the M14 (which used the same operating system) because it (1) had a detachable magazine, and (2) the military wanted a selective fire rifle.
> The Mosin Nagant was replaced by the SKS (which was in turn replaced by the AK47) because the Russian military realized the superiority of a gas operated magazine fed semi automatic rifle.
> None of these choices were made because "combat was close".
> And how the M16 ended up being foisted upon the Army and Marines is a whole 'nother story.


ok you got me, I did get my calibers mixed up however you are wrong about the choices not being made over distance of combat, there are many factors in deciding to replace firearms. yeah I know the SKS was replaced by the AK but I am talking about why the mosin was replaced by the SKS. after WWII it was decided the more rounds you throw at a target the higher your chances of winning a battle not necessarily the most powerful round ( look it up before you dismiss this ). Unless people live out in the open you don't need long range rifles, if you think there is an economic collapse it would be close combat, if you believe blue helmets or FEMA or something its close combat. that is my point and i see it as totally correct. for those who think they could snipe Blue helmets, DHS, FEMA or some group shooting citizens I say it doesn't matter two words Drone Strikes. If you think economic collapse where is is total WROL got two words out numbered. you need to stand together with those around you unless your gonna buy them firearms it is a inexpensive way to go to standardize


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## Infidel (Dec 22, 2012)

thomasdangerpowers said:


> I'm am also a AR guy, but even then remember why the M1 Garand was replaced with the M14 and why the Mosin Nagant was relaced with the SKS, these rifles were effective at long range but combat was close. for that reason I think a carbine will do just fine. another thing to think about an AR is a great gun but you need to get a quality one, some cheaper manufactured AR's are not reliable either. and the final thing that no one seems to talk about is the same caliber for both firearms, just stock up on that one caliber


Standardization is fine however the biggest issue I see with pistol caliber carbines is #1 limited range because let's face it the 9mm and even the .45ACP is anemic compared to the 5.56mm, #2 most pistol cartridges won't penetrate body armor. If you're considering a carbine I would give some serious thought about getting one chambered in a rifle cartridge rather than a pistol cartridge. Yes you'll have to stock 2 different types of ammo however this is a small issue compared to the comfort of knowing that your rifle is capable of handling just about any situation you come up against. Body armor penetration should be a major concern in a SHTF situation, you may not need it but your sure gonna wish you had it when you come up against someone wearing armor.

Most people standardizing ammo (from what I've seen anyway) are standardizing so that everyone in their group is carrying the same cartridges. Rifles chambered alike, handguns chambered alike but not necessarily interchangeability between rifle and handgun. As an example there's 3 people in your family and all 3 have rifles chambered in 5.56 and handguns chambered in 9mm, ideally all of those guns would use the same magazines also so if your wife's AR was out of ammo you could toss her a magazine and get her back in the fight.

-Infidel


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Standardizing is not for me. I reload my own ammo and in my rifles I neck size only for the best accuracy. My cartridges most likely won't fit in any other guns and it is unlikely that I will get the same accuracy from any other ammo. It's OK, I stock enough components to keep me in ammo for a very long time and I have thousands of rounds loaded and ready to go for each of my guns.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I have been owning, buying, and shooting firearms for over 50 years. I buy what I like, "standardizing" may be fine for you go ahead and do it, but i do what makes me happy. That's why I have firearms chambered in such things as 22 Hornet, 32-20, 45-70, 45 Colt, plus all the usual common calibers. 30-30, 30-06, 8MM Mauser, 12 ga, twenty different calibers and gauges all together. 
I personally don't think there will be a total breakdown of society with roving gangs of thugs and firefights, etc.
At least not in my AO.
And most everyone out here is well armed anyway, and if not, I'm not sharing.
Now, if I had the cash I'd like a nice bolt action in 416 Rigby, or 375 H&H, Just for grins.
And an Enfield No4MkI is needed for my WWII collection.
Standardization? Not for me, thanks.


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

Infidel said:


> Standardization is fine however the biggest issue I see with pistol caliber carbines is #1 limited range because let's face it the 9mm and even the .45ACP is anemic compared to the 5.56mm, #2 most pistol cartridges won't penetrate body armor. If you're considering a carbine I would give some serious thought about getting one chambered in a rifle cartridge rather than a pistol cartridge. Yes you'll have to stock 2 different types of ammo however this is a small issue compared to the comfort of knowing that your rifle is capable of handling just about any situation you come up against. Body armor penetration should be a major concern in a SHTF situation, you may not need it but your sure gonna wish you had it when you come up against someone wearing armor.
> 
> Most people standardizing ammo (from what I've seen anyway) are standardizing so that everyone in their group is carrying the same cartridges. Rifles chambered alike, handguns chambered alike but not necessarily interchangeability between rifle and handgun. As an example there's 3 people in your family and all 3 have rifles chambered in 5.56 and handguns chambered in 9mm, ideally all of those guns would use the same magazines also so if your wife's AR was out of ammo you could toss her a magazine and get her back in the fight.
> 
> -Infidel


I guess you should be prepared for anything however what hapended to the north hollywood bankrobbers against .223........nothing (I'm knot knocking the caliber either, I have an AR) one guy shot himself inthe head the other was shot multiple times in the lower legs - calfs and feet and he bled to death anyway. The odds of someone having body armor are slm at best, the odds off needing the ability to use the same mags as the guy next to you are way more likely. if a guy has big bulky armor I'm not targeting his center of mass, and more importantly If it is a martial law type deal they would have level 4 armor or something we don't know about anyway.


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

I looked into several economic collapses and they all go down the same way, ending in massive printing like we are doing now with our bonds, China has cut back bond purchases like crazy, Japan is already starting to see high inflation if historty repeats itself there will be exactly that. in Argentina when you called the cops because you were being robbed the police got there chased off the thieves then stole your supplies themselves. this is what happens and no one guy can go at it alone and suceed, another thing to think about is that if every one is armed what happens when every one gets hungry? I understand you have experience on me and I don't question that and I believe you need to do what you think is best for you. However age or years of shooting firearms or combat doesn't trump studying these types of situations, I assume your saw combat but that isn't the same as what I see coming. I can shoot, I've had guns for years but I would take many WWII firearms into modern combat or underestimate the desperation of parents seeing the children starving or the efficiency of government genocide. There is some sick things in history and history repeats itself. we need to work together with those around us, if you were in combat I know you know better than I the importance of ammo capacity and being able to toss a mag at the guy next to you instead of several types of mags for different firearms and calibers


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

It's a matter of preference. I have no idea why anyone would own a High Point but I'm glad that most thugs carry them over something reliable. I would much rather be facing an illegally armed hood rat with a High Point "Nina" than a good gun. My duty gun is an H&K USP .45 compact. My off duty gun is a Kimber CDP Pro II. I prefer quality firearms. After all, my life and those of others depend on them every day.


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## thomasdangerpowers (Mar 2, 2012)

csi-tech said:


> It's a matter of preference. I have no idea why anyone would own a High Point but I'm glad that most thugs carry them over something reliable. I would much rather be facing an illegally armed hood rat with a High Point "Nina" than a good gun. My duty gun is an H&K USP .45 compact. My off duty gun is a Kimber CDP Pro II. I prefer quality firearms. After all, my life and those of others depend on them every day.


my friend maybe you missed the point of the vid, I have a HK UPS .45 myself and I can honestly say there is nothing budget in HK. Kimbers are ok over prices in my opinion. mass produced custom guns? I have a Colt 1991 A1 so I'm not knocking the 1911 style either. but again the point was tactical set up on a budget. thats what the video was all about.... for those guys out there that cant shell out a grand on a single firearm much less several grand for several guns and gear


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Picking a good low-budget tactical set up depends on your tactics. 

If you are looking to defend your home, it's hard to beat a good pump shotgun. Add a magazine extension, side saddle to hold some extra rounds, and maybe a low cost laser if that's your style. Total cost should be 350 bucks or so.

If you have a few acres and intend to defend it, I would add an AR-type 5.56mm. You aren't just buying a gun; you are also committing to buying the ammo. You should get enough trigger time to get proficient, and have to shoot regularly in order to maintain that proficiency. You will also want to put some ammo away for a rainy day, right? Yeah, you might find a used M-14 or whatever cheap, but 7.62mm ammo is expensive, remember to factor in the cost (and availability) of the ammo too.

The only thing I can see myself doing that is even remotely "tactical" would be patrolling the property. If forced to do this, my set up will include:
1 dog (K-9 early detection system)
5.56 mm Troy Carbine with a Bushnell 1x MP T-dot sight (OK, this wasn't cheap)
.45 ACP Taurus 1911
A LBE vest containing 4 carbine mags, 2 pistol mags, pistol holster, canteen, fixed blade knife, flashlight, and small first aid kit

For me, handguns are a last resort. I wouldn't dream of basing a survival strategy on a pistol except as a concealed carry weapon for discouraging muggers and the like. I would carry my .45 as a secondary weapon, but if forced to use it... man, I did something terribly wrong to end up in a situation like that.

The lowest cost tactical setup would be learning how to run and hide. Avoiding life or death situations should always be your plan.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Prepadoodle said:


> The lowest cost tactical setup would be learning how to run and hide. Avoiding life or death situations should always be your plan.


Reminds me of Bill Mauldin's book Up Front, a collection of cartoons of the WWII infantry grunts Willie and Joe. 
"That can't be no combat man. He's looking for a fight.":lol:


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## Ripon (Dec 22, 2012)

In mapping out a good tactical package for a friend this past week it came to $4500 with ammo. My reccommendations were,

1911 45 with Kimber 22 conv kit, 
Custom self built AR 15 / M4 with CMMG 22 conv kit
Mossy 500/590 or Rem 870 
2500 rnds 22LR
0900 rnds 223
0300 rnds 45
0300 rnds 12 gauge


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## Rigged for Quiet (Mar 3, 2013)

I shudder to think about being in a position to have aquire the three (in my opinion) absolute must haves for firearms collection in today's market. I, like most, believe you need at a minimum for a fixed position defensive strategy a hand gun, a rifle (I prefer high capacity semi auto), and a defensive/combat shotgun. I truely feel for those in today's job market and economy who are just now coming to the realization these are a good idea to have. Not everyone has had the benefit of 20 to 30 yrs of time to collect these things. 

My major hobby for more than a few years has been mostly recontructive orthopedic surgery and physical therapy. In between those I have a fondness for cycling, since continuous running is not in my skeletal systems best interest. I have found many folks who are turning to cycling for excercise and fitness who are on a budget and certainly don't fit the sports mold for fitness and body type. The cycling community and the shooting community share one sad trait in that the folks who have been involved, and the folks who have the money, tend to have pretty spiffy equipment and a great number of each tend to scoff at low the end equipment of a lot of "newbies". My answer to this attitude is that any bike that is ridden is a good bike, so make the most of what you have and remember why you are doing this to begin with. I have a similar answer about firearms. Get what you can afford, learn it's capabilities, respect it's limitations, and do what you can to someday upgrade. "A" gun is better than no gun.


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