# Faraday bags Thoughts?



## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

What would you put in them?
When can you safely remove said items?


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

I would put my e-readers in them. I am not sure when things can safely be removed. I am sure someone on here could tell us. Right now I store my e-readers in an old microwave.


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

Apparently no one else does neither.
Anybody have one?
all the BS about EMP's and nothing?


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## BlackDog (Nov 23, 2013)

I don't have any Faraday bags so can offer no input on those. I do have a Faraday EmComm box and a Faraday trashcan.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Urinal Cake said:


> What would you put in them?
> When can you safely remove said items?


Think about it. Faraday Bags are for protecting items from an EMP attack. An EMP attack will destroy the electric grid. What will still be useful with no centralized power, or limited solar power?

Not computers, no internet left. Not cellphones, no relay towers. Not GPS, not AM/FM radios, nothing that connects to a network.

Shortwave radios that can be recharged with solar power can get news from overseas, the solar recharging equipment, like Auntie said - e-readers that have SHTF info on them, wind up flashlights, these are all useful post-EMP. I'm sure I'm missing a lot.

As to when you can remove them? When the attacks are over, your guess is as good as anyone else's.


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

That is why I have 2 e-readers with the same things on them. Have one that stays in there to keep it safe.


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## trips-man (Apr 26, 2015)

Thats why I try to stock up on hardcover/softcover books.


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## trips-man (Apr 26, 2015)

How effective are Faraday Bags? What are the best kind to get?


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Don't want to change the topic, but why doesn't someone make an e-reader, or I-pad type device, that has a display screen that doubles as a photoelectric collector for recharging the device. Simply leave your device in the light, and it's always charged. I'd buy one.


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## topgun (Oct 2, 2013)

I'm not real concerned about being able to receive short wave, radio or any other kind of communication after an EMP event. I'm planning to be on my own and off-grid (with family) for a long while. I think it will be a long while before things start to get back to semi-normal after any sort of attack. I'm not sure I would trust what I heard over the airwaves very much anyway. It might just be propaganda from the attackers, who would probably be in the best position to communicate at that point.

I don't have any expertise in the matter what-so-ever, but lately, I've been reading that old microwaves won't do any good as a faraday cage. Hopefully, someone will do research on it and do a report for everyone. I'd hate to see people counting on something that won't do what they are expecting it to do.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Do have a radio station to protect and would be challenging remembering such a huge library. Pretty hard to carry too.

Phone/pad solar xhargers arent too expensive and we're hopefully not doing without the generator.

Insulation is supposed to be the main thing. Prevent the device from touching any metal part or even being too close. I have heard if it's not copper, use galvanized.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

topgun said:


> ...I don't have any expertise in the matter what-so-ever, but lately, I've been reading that old microwaves won't do any good as a faraday cage. Hopefully, someone will do research on it and do a report for everyone. I'd hate to see people counting on something that won't do what they are expecting it to do.


I believe you're correct about microwave ovens being ineffective against EMP. PaulS has more knowledge than most on this topic. Maybe he will weigh in here.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

While nothing is perfect Microwave ovens do provide fairly strong EMP protection.

If the EMP is from a Solar flare keep stuff protected for 72 hours (48 hrs should be sufficient).

If a nuclear EMP event while the event is over in seconds a government study said a second EMP attach was likely 1 to 3 weeks after the 1st attack in an effort to damage military items that were protected from the 1st attack and were then pulled from their protection to replace the damaged stuff from the 1st attack.

Good EMP info here EMP Faraday Cages and Bags | EMP and Solar Flare Protection

I keep an old laptop and a memory stick in one along with some old solar parts from past projects.


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

trips-man said:


> Thats why I try to stock up on hardcover/softcover books.


I have hundreds and hundreds of books. If for some reason I couldn't stay here I wouldn't be able to take my paper books with me. However, I could take the e-readers.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

I have Faraday cans with everything triple protected by foil and insulation. I have thought of using Mylar bags which would be easier than foil, BUT have been told from several sources that Mylar is not heavy enough. What are your Faraday bags made of?


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

RNprepper said:


> I have Faraday cans with everything triple protected by foil and insulation. I have thought of using Mylar bags which would be easier than foil, BUT have been told from several sources that Mylar is not heavy enough. What are your Faraday bags made of?


MilSpec heavy mylar. The manufacturer says that one bag will handle any sun flare and most EMP events. The manufacturer admits a single bag may not provide enough protection from some of the more modern efficient EMP devices and recommends double bagging it protect against the strongest EMP attacks. Because of their cost for the few bags I do have they are only single bagged. It's a price compromise for me.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

You do not need to protect your electronics from solar events - no matter how strong they are. Solar events will put huge currents through the transmission lines and destroy large transformers but will not affect your electronics.

A microwave is built to shield against the frequencies used by the machine - not an HEMP. the HEMP produces frequencies in the micro-millimeter range and those frequencies will travel up the cord (even if it is cut) and through the screen that lets you watch your food cook. It does offer some protection but not nearly enough to protect your electronics. Find or make three cardboard boxes that will fit inside one another. Make sure the smallest box will hold what you want to protect. Buy that heavy duty aluminum foil that you use for turkey on thanksgiving - two rolls.Wrap the big box around the outside in a continuous sheet of foil. (you will have to join two or more sheets for a big enough piece of foil - fold the joint over on itself twice and then flatten it. You can use contact cement if you feel the need but you still need to double fold any seams. Leave enough foil to cover the top that is joined to the rest of the box with a double seam. - Absolutely no foil on the inside of the box anywhere!
You have one box that is open (the biggest box) and ready to close and seal in aluminum foil. Do the same with your other two boxes being very careful not to have the aluminum in any of the boxes.
Place your electronics in the smallest box and double seal all the seams. Place that box in the next one and seal it up the same way. Place the medium sized box, that is sealed with the small box sealed inside it, into the larger box and close the lid and seal the seams with the double fold. To protect the bottom from getting torn put it on a piece of heavy paper or cardboard. Fold the edges up to protect the corners of the aluminum. 

A simple lap joint where you put one piece of foil over another is not good enough for protection. You must fold that lap over once and then once again to be an effective seal against the HEMP A-1 pulse. There is no bag - especially aluminized mylar - that will offer protection against the E-1 pulse of an HEMP.

As long as all three layers of aluminum are sealed then the contents of the small box are safe from any HEMP. Batteries are not affected by HEMP's but the batteries for these devises have electronic charge controllers built in so be sure to store your batteries in the same box - but separate from the unit. Never store your electronics with the batteries installed. They will be dead when you go to use them more likely than not.


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## RNprepper (Apr 5, 2014)

I have my stuff wrapped in layers of foil with insulation between each layer as you described. They are stored in an insulated steel can with a sealed lid. Here is the problem - the batteries of radios, solar lanterns, chargers, etc. need to be recharged periodically and all the wrapping and unwrapping has basically "foiled" my intended recharging schedule. Thus, I believe all my batteries are probably dead. A heavy mylar bag that could be double/triple folded and then layered - like two bags with insulation inbetween would make the unwrapping and repacking so much easier.


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

PaulS said:


> You do not need to protect your electronics from solar events - no matter how strong they are. Solar events will put huge currents through the transmission lines and destroy large transformers but will not affect your electronics.
> 
> A microwave is built to shield against the frequencies used by the machine - not an HEMP. the HEMP produces frequencies in the micro-millimeter range and those frequencies will travel up the cord (even if it is cut) and through the screen that lets you watch your food cook. It does offer some protection but not nearly enough to protect your electronics. Find or make three cardboard boxes that will fit inside one another. Make sure the smallest box will hold what you want to protect. Buy that heavy duty aluminum foil that you use for turkey on thanksgiving - two rolls.Wrap the big box around the outside in a continuous sheet of foil. (you will have to join two or more sheets for a big enough piece of foil - fold the joint over on itself twice and then flatten it. You can use contact cement if you feel the need but you still need to double fold any seams. Leave enough foil to cover the top that is joined to the rest of the box with a double seam. - Absolutely no foil on the inside of the box anywhere!
> You have one box that is open (the biggest box) and ready to close and seal in aluminum foil. Do the same with your other two boxes being very careful not to have the aluminum in any of the boxes.
> ...


Thanks for the info Paul. I need something that I can get into about once a month to download the latest books onto my e-readers.

Do you have any suggestions on what I can do for them? They are nooks, in a protective case, then in the box they came in.

I did line the microwave with styrofoam that is wrapped in two layers of heavy duty foil.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

Opening the boxes would be a chore, but it could be done. For batteries that have to be charged at regular interval, and electronics that need to be updated with information it might be better to use freezer bags - the zip-lock kind - and wrap the bag in Heavy duty foli. Place that foil pouch in another zip-lock bag wrapped in foil, and place that in another bag and then wrap that one in foil too. 
If you use an "envelope" of foil then you would just have to unfold the opening and pull out the nested bags and do the same thing to get at your batteries or book readers.

I could get real creative with my laptop using different sizes of heavy trash bags and aluminum foil "envelopes" to protect it so you could do the same thing with any electronics that you wanted to protect.

Auntie, I might have misunderstood but if you have foil on the inside and outside of the styrofoam you have created a large antenna to conduct the E-1 pulse into your electronics. you want your product in an insulator, then a single layer of the heaviest aluminum foil you can get - then another insulator wrapped in another layer of foil and another layer of insulation wrapped in a final layer of foil. To make the microwave work you want to line it with insulation on the inside then a layer of foil, an insulator another layer of foil and then an insulator that holds your gear. 
Since you have to pull it out to keep it updated I would use the foil envelopes and plastic bags - heavy plastic bags you don't want any leaks in the insulator or the foil layers.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

I was waiting for you to comment this.

I have questions. If I don't need to protect my electronics from this, then why bother?

I have heard of using aluminum trashcans sealed with aluminum tape?

From what I hear, the people who make Faraday bags say to triple layer their product, and even then it probably wont work. Why is that?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

The bags are made of aluminized mylar and the aluminum is too thin for the skin effect to work. (basically the EM pulse goes through the aluminum before it can travel around it).

Solar events can't harm your electronics but a nuclear detonation from orbit can. Even though there is no shock wave, heat wave or radiation from a high altitude nuclear blast it generates a very high frequency (in the nanometer range) pulse of 30 to 70 mega-volts per square meter. That kind of voltage bridges the "gap" in semiconductors and fries them at the junctions. The smaller the semiconductors the more delicate they are and the more sensitive to this E-1 pulse.

The aluminum trash cans sealed with aluminum tape require a tight fitting lid and the inside has to be insulated completely. The thicker the aluminum "box" is the better the protection but even if you have a "box" with quarter inch thick sides and a sealed 1/8" mylar (insulator) between your electronics and the box there is still a big chance that enough of the E-1 pulse can get through to harm integrated circuits. Layering is the best defense.

In my area all the metal trash cans are galvanized steel and the resistance in the steel allows the E-1 pulse to go through before it goes around the can, Aluminum is about the most resistive material you should use, gold is better but a bit expensive for this use, copper is better but again more expensive than aluminum, and silver is the best - while cheaper than gold it is a lot more expensive than copper and as well as aluminum works it makes more sense to use the heavy duty foil.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Hey Paul, what has you up so late?


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

A long day at the range doing my RSO duties... I am just winding down waiting for the aspirin to tell me that I don't hurt.


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## Auntie (Oct 4, 2014)

Thank you again Paul.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Yes, thanks PaulS. As usual, very clear and understandable. I copy and file your posts on this subject.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

You are welcome.

You are welcome to share it as well. Knowledge is valueless without using and sharing it.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

PaulS said:


> You do not need to protect your electronics from solar events - no matter how strong they are. Solar events will put huge currents through the transmission lines and destroy large transformers but will not affect your electronics.
> 
> A microwave is built to shield against the frequencies used by the machine - not an HEMP. the HEMP produces frequencies in the micro-millimeter range and those frequencies will travel up the cord (even if it is cut) and through the screen that lets you watch your food cook. It does offer some protection but not nearly enough to protect your electronics. Find or make three cardboard boxes that will fit inside one another. Make sure the smallest box will hold what you want to protect. Buy that heavy duty aluminum foil that you use for turkey on thanksgiving - two rolls.Wrap the big box around the outside in a continuous sheet of foil. (you will have to join two or more sheets for a big enough piece of foil - fold the joint over on itself twice and then flatten it. You can use contact cement if you feel the need but you still need to double fold any seams. Leave enough foil to cover the top that is joined to the rest of the box with a double seam. - Absolutely no foil on the inside of the box anywhere!
> You have one box that is open (the biggest box) and ready to close and seal in aluminum foil. Do the same with your other two boxes being very careful not to have the aluminum in any of the boxes.
> ...


Paul, While I respect your advice and don't claim to be any expert on EMP either manmade or from our sun. . 90% of the articles I've read suggest that you are wrong as far as a solar cornelia effect flare's ability to damage microchips. If it can destroy the thick copper in a transformer it can continue down the line and trash my TV's microchips. Those same pulses which can destroy our transformers will travel down the lines to our delicate modern electronics. Over the years I've had 2 old VGA tube televisions destroyed by lightening strikes which also got the local transformers. Modern electronics are much easier to damage by a voltage spike than my 30 year old television electronics. Please keep in mind that a solar EMP will travel down those same wires the transformers are on or the much shorter wires from an unplugged radio may have to damage the device.

I've read several articles which show that a microwave oven provides solid (but not perfect) protection against an EMP type event. While I will continue to attempt to protect some electronics through the use of mylar bags (which are about as thick as aluminum foil) I still plan to use the microwave as a last minute protective measure against EMP.

No level of protection is perfect, any shield can be penetrated, but there is a balance between armor (EMP protection) and cost and ease of use.


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

FoolAmI,

I think I understand your confusion.
The E-1 pulse from an orbiting nuke is a high voltage pulse - that voltages penetrates any imperfection in your shield. The voltage is high enough to burn the chips.

The other two parts of an EMP and the only ones present in Solar events generate very large currents - not voltages, but currents that generate heat in the large wires and transformers by over heating them - like running 200 amps through a 12 AWG cable. The amperage destroys the wires and transformers but cant get to your electronics because of the protections they have. A simple transformer or that ferrite filter that is built into the power and data cables will stop the current build up before it can damage anything inside.

If I hook up a 3 volt light to a 12 volt battery it won't last long because the voltage is high enough to force more current through the light than it can stand. If I use a 3 volt source that can supply 1000000 amps to power that bulb it will happily glow on and on.

If I have a wire that is rated to handle 30 amps and I push 1000000 volts through it nothing happens as long as there is less than 30 amps. If I push 12 volts through that wire and it allows 100 amps then the wire will burst into flame and melt.

This is the difference between the high frequency E-1 pulse and the low frequency E-2 and E-3 pulses. The E-1 pulse is high voltage (30 to 70 million volts per meter) and very low current while the other two pulses are lower frequency but very high current pulses. Where the voltage will travel quickly enough to penetrate shielding the amperage can be slowed by transformers and filters. The transformers absorb the heat of the process and the primaries burn out which stops the flow of electricity.

I hope that clarifies the difference between the solar events and the HEMP events.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I understand basic electrical concepts, when I design and build generator packages I deal with amps/volts. In this case we are dealing with super high volts and very low amps in a very short waveform or cycle thus the need for a solid and preferably thicker layer of protection to minimize the chances of pass through.

At the same time we are dealing with cost/labor verses potential benefit. Like the Abrams tank with thick but not unrealistically thick/heavy armor I'm choosing to providing enough protection to cover 90% of the potential EMP "hits". Covering any and all potential EMP attacks is more that I'm interested in protecting against. 
I try to be realistic in purchasing my "survival insurance".


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## PaulS (Mar 11, 2013)

That is a sound practice in most things. A high altitude nuke is a very real threat - there are about 10 nations right now that could perform such an act. One single small detonation could wipe out the southern half of Canada south to nearly Panama and from New Newfoundland west to beyond the Pacific coast. All semiconductors that are not shielded will be junk, whether they are in your laptop, cell phone, or sitting on a shelf in a warehouse. If you don't keep anything you need on your electronic devices then you don't need the protection. 

An HEMP is not going to be a local event that "might not" affect you. If it happens it will affect everyone. Two rolls of heavy duty foil and some heavy duty bags is pretty cheap insurance. The choice is yours.


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