# Prepper Groups With 3-D Printers. Advice Needed.



## jimcosta

Just playing* What If* here folks. This mind experiment requires a Prepper group or a large extended family pictured to succeed.

* Assume some in the group have access to cash more than others.
* Assume the group is most successful as long as the group stays intact and strong.
* Assume the group has supplies for X Time period and the chaos in that area continues for more than that X Time period.

*Now let's begin to imagine.*

First we have to recognize that in a survival situation all members are important to the group. To say that one person is more valuable than another is like saying one leg on a three legged stool is needed more than another. When enough of the legs have been removed the group will surely fall over.

This brings us to the question of "What is our end-game?" when our supplies do begin to run out?

Our group has a policy that when a member's supplies begin to run out they are furloughed to an outside residence that we can support in all ways except food. But is there another way to continue to keep the group intact beside enforcing this policy?

Yes, I believe there is. Those with excess cash will probably survive the longest through the furloughs but may in time may realize their numbers are dangerously low and they may die with a lot of cash. Pity.

*So how's this for an end-game plan?* Those with cash can invest in deluxe 3-D printers to produce all needed supplies to sustain the group. This would be better than the entire group perishing, right? Even the wealthy ones would buy into this as the end nears right? Isn't this a good plan?

Now I know you are going to say "Silly, the Internet will be down." But I really don't mean a real 3-D printer. I suggest the wealthy ones purchase silver and gold at the current ridiculous low prices and as the chaos continues it will grow at astronomically high rates. An ounce of silver is expected to possibly exceed $1,000 per ounce during the chaos. (I am not here to argue the value, just accept it for this experiment please.)

A $100,000 investment today could be worth $50 Million after a year of chaos.

Now I know it would be dangerous to go out into public to purchase but a group can manage this problem much better than a loner can. I am referring to a time when the world begins to produce again and commerce is just beginning to crank back up.

Your thoughts? If you are a loner with a bad taste in your mouth leave it alone. I am trying to develop the idea and need honest input. Thanks.


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## Back Pack Hack

Not sure why you're comparing a 3D printer with a stash of precious metals. Then say, "Oh, not a _real _printer... just gold & silver". And a stash worth "$50 million" may only buy you a couple months worth of food when inflation set in. Remember Germany after WWII?


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## jimcosta

BPH: Analogy was used to have one start with a clear mind first.

The costs will be immaterial. As the costs skyrocket so will the value of the precious metals. That is their nature.
Another way of looking at it is Prepper Purchases* today of $100,000* could be purchases tomorrow of *$2 Million* in precious metals at *tomorrow's cost.*
They rise and fall together - like a balanced equation.
The prices in Germany inflated because it was *Fiat currency*. 
Precious metal *money* inflated with the cost inflation. It was the only protection against the currency inflation.


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## Back Pack Hack

jimcosta said:


> BPH: Analogy was used to have one start with a clear mind first.
> ........


Then why clog it up with a meaningless references to 3D printers? What's this "furloughed out to an outside residence that we can support in all ways except food" business?


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## jimcosta

BPH: Our policy is we will move members outside our group geographically and support them in all means except food. They will have to procure their own food when theirs runs out.
Each member in our group feeds themselves. A member is responsible for his own food supply - he determines his own future.

_"Then why clog it up?"_ *Answer:* My way of trying to get one to approach the problem with an open mind. The outcome would have been different if you knew I was going to end up with a combination of Chitlings, beer that tastes like horse pee and having to live with two Mother-In-Laws.


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## paulag1955

What kind of supplies are you picturing being able to print? I'm confused.


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## jimcosta

Paulag: "Now I know you are going to say "Silly, the Internet will be down." *But I really don't mean a real 3-D printer.* I suggest the wealthy ones purchase silver and gold at the current ridiculous low prices and as the chaos continues it will grow at astronomically high rates. An ounce of silver is expected to possibly exceed $1,000 per ounce during the chaos. (I am not here to argue the value, just accept it for this experiment please.)"


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## Back Pack Hack

If "a member is responsible for his own food supply - he determines his own future", what the he11 good is this group? When a member of this MAG runs out of their own food, you're going to physically force them to move? Kick 'em out of their own home? Tell 'em to go pound sand until they're outside the perimeter? Doesn't sound like a very helpful MAG. What happens when they run out of ammo? Or med supplies? Or the ability to collect/filter water? Do they need to move just the same? What happens if you ALL run out of food? Or gold and silver? Or 3D printers? Or whatever it is you're driving at? Do you all just go your separate ways?

I still don't get the 'clear mind' angle when you just toss in a bunch of non-relevant items. Are we discussing 3D printers, precious metals, or food?


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## jimcosta

OK Folks, Ya'll win.

My purpose was to improve our group by eventually helping those that may run out of food supplies and be furloughed.
We have the precious metals now. Just trying to figure out a way to use them in the event of a life or death end coming. 

I personally don't think we can stop what is about to befall our country. It will divide up the land in areas of harsh control and pockets of safety, all mixed around the USA.
We cannot control the whole process but we may be able to expand small groups to provide safety for others. Using the precious metals may be a way to sustain those lives.
If we can learn how to do this other groups may be able to do the same.

But I made a mistake in posing the problem to the wrong crowd. My apology. I won't make this mistake again.


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## Back Pack Hack

jimcosta said:


> OK Folks, Ya'll win.............


I didn't realize this was a contest.



jimcosta said:


> ......My purpose was to improve our group by eventually helping those that may run out of food supplies and be furloughed.............


Who says we are going to be 'furloughed'. By who? And why? Maybe that's how your MAG is set up, but sure as he11 ain't the way mine is. We're sticking together, thick and thin, to the very end............



jimcosta said:


> ......We have the precious metals now. Just trying to figure out a way to use them in the event of a life or death end coming.............


I'd think that's pretty obvious. You pay for stuff you need with it. Food, meds, ammo.... you know, that kinda stuff. I mean, you can't eat it, you can't shoot with it, you can't treat a broken leg with it.......


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## Slippy

jimcosta said:


> Just playing* What If* here folks. This mind experiment requires a Prepper group or a large extended family pictured to succeed.
> 
> * Assume some in the group have access to cash more than others.
> * Assume the group is most successful as long as the group stays intact and strong.
> * Assume the group has supplies for X Time period and the chaos in that area continues for more than that X Time period.
> 
> *Now let's begin to imagine.*
> 
> First we have to recognize that in a survival situation all members are important to the group. To say that one person is more valuable than another is like saying one leg on a three legged stool is needed more than another. When enough of the legs have been removed the group will surely fall over.
> 
> This brings us to the question of "What is our end-game?" when our supplies do begin to run out?
> 
> Our group has a policy that when a member's supplies begin to run out they are furloughed to an outside residence that we can support in all ways except food. But is there another way to continue to keep the group intact beside enforcing this policy?
> 
> Yes, I believe there is. Those with excess cash will probably survive the longest through the furloughs but may in time may realize their numbers are dangerously low and they may die with a lot of cash. Pity.
> 
> *So how's this for an end-game plan?* Those with cash can invest in deluxe 3-D printers to produce all needed supplies to sustain the group. This would be better than the entire group perishing, right? Even the wealthy ones would buy into this as the end nears right? Isn't this a good plan?
> 
> Now I know you are going to say "Silly, the Internet will be down." But I really don't mean a real 3-D printer. I suggest the wealthy ones purchase silver and gold at the current ridiculous low prices and as the chaos continues it will grow at astronomically high rates. An ounce of silver is expected to possibly exceed $1,000 per ounce during the chaos. (I am not here to argue the value, just accept it for this experiment please.)
> 
> A $100,000 investment today could be worth $50 Million after a year of chaos.
> 
> Now I know it would be dangerous to go out into public to purchase but a group can manage this problem much better than a loner can. I am referring to a time when the world begins to produce again and commerce is just beginning to crank back up.
> 
> Your thoughts? If you are a loner with a bad taste in your mouth leave it alone. I am trying to develop the idea and need honest input. Thanks.


Jim,

I love your idea. The rest of these knuckleheads are just meanies.


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## Denton

jimcosta said:


> OK Folks, Ya'll win.
> 
> My purpose was to improve our group by eventually helping those that may run out of food supplies and be furloughed.
> We have the precious metals now. Just trying to figure out a way to use them in the event of a life or death end coming.
> 
> I personally don't think we can stop what is about to befall our country. It will divide up the land in areas of harsh control and pockets of safety, all mixed around the USA.
> We cannot control the whole process but we may be able to expand small groups to provide safety for others. Using the precious metals may be a way to sustain those lives.
> If we can learn how to do this other groups may be able to do the same.
> 
> But I made a mistake in posing the problem to the wrong crowd. My apology. I won't make this mistake again.


You just confused us is all. I think this post cleared it up.


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## paulag1955

jimcosta said:


> Paulag: "Now I know you are going to say "Silly, the Internet will be down." *But I really don't mean a real 3-D printer.* I suggest the wealthy ones purchase silver and gold at the current ridiculous low prices and as the chaos continues it will grow at astronomically high rates. An ounce of silver is expected to possibly exceed $1,000 per ounce during the chaos. (I am not here to argue the value, just accept it for this experiment please.)"


Dang, I was so confused by the 3D printer that I read right over that. Personally, I'd rather have food and the means to produce more food than gold and silver, which could be virtually worthless for years, IMO, after a SHTF situation.


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## jimcosta

Again folks, my apology.


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## Denton

jimcosta said:


> Again folks, my apology.


Jim, the day you are perfect is the day I'll worship you. Until then, no need to apologize. There's nobody here who hasn't had their words get in the way! :vs_laugh:


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## Back Pack Hack

paulag1955 said:


> Dang, I was so confused by the 3D printer that I read right over that. Personally, I'd rather have food and the means to produce more food than gold and silver, which could be virtually worthless for years, IMO, after a SHTF situation.


I wouldn't say it's going to worthless, but it may have such a deflated price it won't get you much. I seriously doubt you'd get a 500x return (100,000 to 50,000,000), but if you've got all your other preps in order and can afford it, I'd say buying precious metals (besides lead and brass) makes sense.


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## paulag1955

Back Pack Hack said:


> I wouldn't say it's going to worthless, but it may have such a deflated price it won't get you much. I seriously doubt you'd get a 500x return (100,000 to 50,000,000), but if you've got all your other preps in order and can afford it, I'd say buying precious metals (besides lead and brass) makes sense.


I would buy junk silver because it comes is so many useful sizes and isn't too expensive. But I wouldn't buy gold. I mean, maybe I'd buy gold if I won Powerball, but otherwise, it's a hard no for me.


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## ND_ponyexpress_

IMO gold and silver is handy for immediately during/after a flush (sh*t going down) ... and after some resemblance of recovery.. during you want lead. as for expelling members who run out of food to survive on their own, have any in your group considered GARDENING as a hobby?


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## jimcosta

*ND:* Not sure where you are coming from or what your point is.

But for those with limited foresight on groups that are more than family let's try this way.

Our bylaws were created for a large group of non-family. Therefore, in order to motivate members to purchase supplies all members agree to:

* No one can take the supplies of other members unless the owner gifts supplies.

* All members agree to being moved out of the camp just prior to their food running out.
The group will support them in all ways except food.

* All members agree to a formal eviction process if a member becomes a danger to the group.

* All members understand that they are invited freely into the group only for the duration they have adequate supplies.
You pick the length of your stay. A short timer will not become the responsibility of a three year member.

* No one is entitled in the group. All must have provisions and pull their own weight.

Etc. Etc.

And yes* ND*, food will be grown by the group and factored in to each members supplies, based on the harvests.

Hope this helps.


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## ND_ponyexpress_

so if they have seeds... and garden... how do they run out of food? sustainability should be towards the top of your priorities, otherwise everyone's time is limited. I would assume there is limited storage space (if everything is being equal) and limited growing space.. how do you divvy up the garden plot size? sorry for my limited foresight on groups...


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## ND_ponyexpress_

if you move a member out who has no food, does the rest of their stuff remain? junior is out of food but has crates of .556... granted he can't eat them, but would sure hate for all that .556 to wander over to the neighbor... seems to me, and easier method would be to require an equal dowry to even enter the group... then' everyone should run out at the same time and nobody needs to be voted off the island, thus eliminating potential competition/backlash.. Kicking them out for being worthless is another matter.


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## jimcosta

Try to find X number of people that match in all ways.

When we activate an inventory will be made of big stuff owned, (2) cannons, (1) 8,000 watt generator, XX cubic feet of food, etc.
When a person leaves he takes all of his stuff, period.

Picture it this way. One purchases a ticket on a Greyhound bus. He knows exactly when he will get off. If he wanted to go farther he would have purchased a more expensive ticket. The choice was his.

So to with the cubic feet of food he brings. He knows exactly how long it will last him. So how could he be slighted when he is asked to leave the bus?

It all boils down as to how a member accesses the risks ahead, doesn't it?

In the meantime, Junior can trade his ammo for more food can't he?


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## jimcosta

ND_ponyexpress_ said:


> so if they have seeds... and garden... how do they run out of food? sustainability should be towards the top of your priorities, otherwise everyone's time is limited. I would assume there is limited storage space (if everything is being equal) and limited growing space.. how do you divvy up the garden plot size? sorry for my limited foresight on groups...


This is a big operation compared to 6 family members.

Who will provide the seeds? With what money, as we don't have an entry fee or dues.

Gardening is an iffy thing. Costs money, experience is not like it was for folks a hundred years ago. Crops fail. Canning must be done which requires containers, fuel etc.
Then there is the calorie problem. Crops give nutrients and little calories. The body needs calories which come from expensive meat and less expensive rice and noodles. Most folks cannot garden rice and noodles to stay alive. So feeding oneself for years is not as easy as it sounds.

Therefore we have our cubic foot rule of food stocks which include rice and noodles. Each adult must have 6 cubic feet of food plus 100 pounds of rice and some spaghetti noodles, for a three month stay. The food may be supplemented some with crops, but still *we will count* the rate of consumption of the original entry foods.

We have (40) 4' X 12' grow boxes that can be divided up.

If we did not do it this way someone would be guaranteeing the harvests (for free) and no one here can do that.


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## jimcosta

When we first started we required a minimum of 3 months food to join. Now most members have at least 6 months food with about 25% between one and three years.
Things just progressed as some members saw a longer chaos period.

We could never have found members if we now required a 3 year food supply. So the Furlough rule is serving its purpose and covers us nicely for when a family runs low on food.
Besides, if we contracted for a 3 month supply how can we go back and change it? Wouldn't that be unfair?

Thus we leave the decision up to each member; he alone assumes the risk of understocked food and he alone can change it.


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## ND_ponyexpress_

stockpiling MREs sounds glorious. I am not saying to live by gardening alone.. but I wouldn't write off gardening as iffy or expensive. if done properly you can grow more than you need for the mere investment of starter seeds and your time/effort.


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## ND_ponyexpress_

our need here is not food.... it is reliable warm bodies that can man a lookout post 24-7-365... I willing to trade food for that!


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## jimcosta

We too did that. There were a few "scholarships" given to extended family to help them join. It wasn't top shelf food but rather more beans and rice basics. They were given the list of foods donated. They then can supplement the basic bland diets or live with it. Again, each member is free to choose his own future.

But yes, we did lure in a few members to get the skills needed.
As I said, this was a complex venture from its beginning.


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## jimcosta

*You said: * _"stockpiling MREs sounds glorious. I am not saying to live by gardening alone.. but I wouldn't write off gardening as iffy or expensive. if done properly you can grow more than you need for the mere investment of starter seeds and your time/effort."_

We are saying the same thing. We have a lot of acreage already ploughed with irrigation systems. We have two tractors with all accessories. We have . . . all that is needed to start.
We just do not count future food nor do we guarantee it.

Our leadership council had a meeting to discuss long-term life here as a group. They voted NO in a heart beat. They felt in order to get it going as you see it, we would have to fight all those that did not see a long-term problem as a probability. Therefore, the group as a whole would have to give life for all those with just a minimum 3 month investment in their food. They finally decided through the Furlough system, those people would remove themselves from the group. The remaining long-term food stockers could reform the remaining group, in a year or so, for long-term survival.


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## Kauboy

I certainly got lost on the analogy, but I'll take the blame for that. I've never been much of an abstract thinker.

That said, I don't see the benefit of people putting large amounts of money into precious metals in the hopes of using them during a prolonged SHTF scenario.
Precious metals have always been a wealth vehicle. They take wealth from one time period and move it to another by way of their value being socially accepted as "stable" over the long run.
They have no true intrinsic value, as most of them cannot be used to do much more than look pretty and conduct electricity/heat.
But... they last a LOOOONG time when compared to standard currencies. That's what makes them a good way to preserve wealth over an unknown length of time. They don't deteriorate.

So, to dump one's funds into PMs would serve well to hold onto that value until an economy returns to "normal".
But it would be a terrible idea if you intended to use them as currency for exchange during a prolonged (think decades) event.

As long as you plan to keep them safe and secure, and then sell them back when normal trading currencies return, whatever they may be, then it's a dandy idea.
Thinking you're going to trade a shaving of gold for a loaf of bread is fantasy.


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## StratMaster

Kauboy said:


> I certainly got lost on the analogy, but I'll take the blame for that. I've never been much of an abstract thinker.
> 
> That said, I don't see the benefit of people putting large amounts of money into precious metals in the hopes of using them during a prolonged SHTF scenario.
> Precious metals have always been a wealth vehicle. They take wealth from one time period and move it to another by way of their value being socially accepted as "stable" over the long run.
> They have no true intrinsic value, as most of them cannot be used to do much more than look pretty and conduct electricity/heat.
> But... they last a LOOOONG time when compared to standard currencies. That's what makes them a good way to preserve wealth over an unknown length of time. They don't deteriorate.
> 
> So, to dump one's funds into PMs would serve well to hold onto that value until an economy returns to "normal".
> But it would be a terrible idea if you intended to use them as currency for exchange during a prolonged (think decades) event.
> 
> As long as you plan to keep them safe and secure, and then sell them back when normal trading currencies return, whatever they may be, then it's a dandy idea.
> Thinking you're going to trade a shaving of gold for a loaf of bread is fantasy.


That's it in a nutshell. I'm a gold/silver guy, but have no plans to try and trade it during an extended SHTF. Don't see that happening like some think it will. It's to preserve EXTRA wealth over and above preps already purchased... extended preps. To be redeemed when everything levels back to normal.


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## jimb1972

If there is an economic collapse precious metals would likely be invaluable. Of course in many possible scenarios it may be of little value, but if you have food and security covered it can't hurt. If nothing ever happens you still have a valuable commodity.


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## Redneck

I really have a problem with banishing folks if their individual food supply runs out. Even if these folks know the rules, they will not be understanding. You think they will take it quietly? IMO, what you now have done is create a VERY dangerous enemy... one who knows all the ins & outs of your group. They know your security, where the food is stored... they know everything. So now as opposed to dying like good soldiers, what happens if they join up with other desperate folks to take what they need?

Sure, sure I get you have cannons & walls & all sorts of good stuff for defense but why put yourself in that situation? Like your analogy of the 3 legged stool, why remove one leg? For a stool to stay level, all legs must be equal. Why not ensure all members are equal? Speaking of which, all people aren't equal. Is a doctor equal to an old, retired worker? Would you kick out a doctor simply because he stored less food than the worthless, old fart?

Seems to me, it would be best to change rules to ensure everyone is equal. Say everyone is required to have 6 months worth of food. Could be set up where each year, members must add x amount of food, or perform x number of hours service if they can't afford more food. Last thing you should want to do is kick out folks that know everything about your group. To me, that is just asking for problems.


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## Slippy

I've enjoyed this thread but to be honest, I have no idea what its about!

Thanks!


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## Redneck

Slippy said:


> I've enjoyed this thread but to be honest, I have no idea what its about!
> 
> Thanks!


 @Slippy, this thread requires you to be sober when reading.


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## hawgrider

******* said:


> @Slippy, *this thread requires you to be sober when reading*.


Nope its not even noon yet and that did not help one bit.


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## Redneck

hawgrider said:


> Nope its not even noon yet and that did not help one bit.


Well, not only is the discussion complicated by some mental games from the OP, but truth be told, any discussion regarding organization of a group is complicated. Anyone ever involved with a church probably knows 10% of the people do 90% of the work. My experience has shown that holds true for most any group. IMO, groups are the best way to survive a crisis. Keeping then together will be exceedingly hard.


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## ND_ponyexpress_

large groups can lack what a smaller tight family has, the sacrifice required for EVERYONE in the family to survive.


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## Denton

StratMaster said:


> That's it in a nutshell. I'm a gold/silver guy, but have no plans to try and trade it during an extended SHTF. Don't see that happening like some think it will. It's to preserve EXTRA wealth over and above preps already purchased... extended preps. To be redeemed when everything levels back to normal.


PMs were money long before fiat came along. Doesn't mean the fake money is a new thing. Take Roman coins. The older ones are in much better condition than the later ones because the Empire, as it lost its wealth and strength, started coining with crap metal that didn't stand the test of time. 
I know people around here, from bootleggers to homesteaders, who will take either gold, silver or ammo for their excess (or product) when the crap hits the fan. Don't bother with defunct currency; they'll only accept real money or ammo. 
Don't think PMs are only a store of wealth. There are Old Testament people out there, still.


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## NewRiverGeorge

******* said:


> Anyone ever involved with a church probably knows 10% of the people do 90% of the work.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give you an AMEN to that.
Click to expand...


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## Back Pack Hack

******* said:


> ......... Anyone ever involved with a church probably knows 10% of the people do 90% of the work..............


There are five bones in any organization:

The Legbones, who just stand around.

The Jawbones, who do nothing but talk.

The Wishbones, who just wish someone would do something.

The Knucklebones, who can only complain about everything.

And the Backbone, who does all the work.


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## jimcosta

********: * More facts on our group. Most of us have been together five years.

There is an axiom in law that states he who creates the confusion shall suffer from the confusion.
I was the chief founding member. I tried to research for books or other groups on how they organized themselves. Other than one book by Hobgood, there was no information. Hobgood's book was good and also a disappointment as there were no examples given to work with. One still had to draft all of their own rules and bylaws.

So I painstakinly wrote our organizational rules and procedures. It not only covers admittance of new members but covers who can gift food at the gate and how much, who decides who can venture out with day passes etc.

Before we interview a prospective member, they must assure us that they have read all of our rules before we meet.
Then we discuss some of the main rules so there is no misunderstanding.

Yes, if a member has to be furloughed that will be a blow to them but no surprise. We keep them happy by continuing to support them with water, housing, security, medical, intelligence etc.
Hopefully everything has been done to keep the machine running smoothly over time.

To form a large group you have to act like a turtle. The only way to progress is to stick your head out a little. So yes, you are right. We did stick our necks out in forming a group.

*P.S.* The only way a new member can learn of our location is to join and deliver at least three months of food to the retreat. They have to put skin in the game first.


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## Redneck

jimcosta said:


> Yes, if a member has to be furloughed that will be a blow to them but no surprise. We keep them happy by continuing to support them with water, housing, security, medical, intelligence etc.
> Hopefully everything has been done to keep the machine running smoothly over time.


They are happy as they starve? Really?

The surprise would be their 3 month supply of food didn't last thru the crisis. You really think they will be so understanding as their family starve? At that point logic is thrown out the window.

From my perspective, if you wish to keep the machinery running smoothly, then find a way to make everyone equal. Remember the 3 legged stool.


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## jimcosta

*******: Been nice discussing this with you. I am not trying to convince you of anything so relax.

I am just sharing with *others that may form a group *of more than five people to do it in an organized manner.
I thought this was the purpose of a Prepper forum. Again, my mistake.


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## Redneck

jimcosta said:


> *******: Been nice discussing this with you. I am not trying to convince you of anything so relax.
> 
> I am just sharing with *others that may form a group *of more than five people to do it in an organized manner.
> I thought this was the purpose of a Prepper forum. Again, my mistake.


I certainly appreciate someone who believes in group survival. But when you try to explain how to set up a group, you need to be able to explain your logic. I have yet to hear you do that. First you bring up the mental picture of a 3 legged stool, stating all members are valuable. You state that if enough legs are remove the group will fall.

But then you turn around and state some group members will be removed when they run out of food. You have yet to answer why the group would put themselves into such a situation. You have yet to explain why you think these people will be happy to starve. Do you consider it a breach of security to remove members, during a crisis?


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## jimcosta

*******: Thank you.


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## Back Pack Hack

jimcosta said:


> *R.........*
> 
> *P.S.* The only way a new member can learn of our location is to join and deliver at least three months of food to the retreat. They have to put skin in the game first.


Wait... what?

They have to surrender three months of food, and when they run out you kick 'em to the curb?


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## Redneck

Back Pack Hack said:


> Wait... what?
> 
> They have to surrender three months of food, and when they run out you kick 'em to the curb?


Don't question his logic. He doesn't want to discuss a topic he brought up... on a discussion forum. Go figure. 

But remember, once kicked out, he thinks they will be happy because they have water.


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## Back Pack Hack

******* said:


> Don't question his logic. He doesn't want to discuss a topic he brought up... on a discussion forum. Go figure.
> 
> But remember, once kicked out, he thinks they will be happy because they have water.


I'm still spinning my head from the _3D printer/well, not really_ smokescreen mixed in with the s_tart with a clear mind_ debacle.


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## Kauboy

******* said:


> Well, not only is the discussion complicated by some mental games from the OP, but truth be told, any discussion regarding organization of a group is complicated. Anyone ever involved with a church probably knows 10% of the people do 90% of the work. My experience has shown that holds true for most any group. IMO, groups are the best way to survive a crisis. Keeping then together will be exceedingly hard.


You're describing Price's Law, and it's worse than you think.
*"50% of the work is done by the square root of the total number of people who participate in the work."*
So, if 100 people are working toward the goal, 10 of them are generating 50% of the result.
If 10,000 people are working toward the goal, 100 of them are doing half the work.

It holds true in nearly all scenarios.
Imagine the implications...


----------



## Redneck

Kauboy said:


> You're describing Price's Law, and it's worse than you think.
> *"50% of the work is done by the square root of the total number of people who participate in the work."*
> So, if 100 people are working toward the goal, 10 of them are generating 50% of the result.
> If 10,000 people are working toward the goal, 100 of them are doing half the work.
> 
> It holds true in nearly all scenarios.
> Imagine the implications...


Doesn't fit for a normal small church of say 100 members. Your law says 10% of the people do 50% of the work. My experience is 10% of the people do 90% of the work.


----------



## paulag1955

I'm wondering how the group can continue to support furloughed members with housing if they've been turned out of the group retreat.


----------



## Kauboy

******* said:


> Doesn't fit for a normal small church of say 100 members. Your law says 10% of the people do 50% of the work. My experience is 10% of the people do 90% of the work.


Not my law, and it doesn't say a percentage of the people. It says the square of the whole. The fact that the square of 100 is also 10% of 100 is coincidental.
If you pulled real metrics, you'd be shocked to find how close it holds up.
But as stated, it only holds true in "nearly all scenarios", and mainly where something is being produced.


----------



## Back Pack Hack

paulag1955 said:


> I'm wondering how the group can continue to support furloughed members with housing if they've been turned out of the group retreat.


I'm wondering who gets to eat the three months of food that's been....uh........ I guess 'deposited' is the best term. Sounds like one helluva scam to me.


----------



## Denton

jimcosta said:


> *******: Been nice discussing this with you. I am not trying to convince you of anything so relax.
> 
> I am just sharing with *others that may form a group *of more than five people to do it in an organized manner.
> I thought this was the purpose of a Prepper forum. Again, my mistake.


It is a Prepper forum and the topic is being discussed. It's OK if people have questions and objections.


----------



## jimcosta

*Paula:* We have two houses on the outside of our farm that borders the farm that would be used for overflow and furloughed members.
They are both brick and will be strengthened for their safety and security. They will be supplied with radios for help. They will only be a hundred yards from our main gate.


----------



## jimcosta

*BPH:* The food belongs only to its owner. If the owner wishes to withdraw before or after activation he will get all of his food returned to him.

We require the minimum amount of 3 months stored on the property because otherwise all vehicles entering would have to be stopped on the highway to insure the minimum amount of food is with them. This might entail unloading the food and measuring it. This would be dangerous for all concerned.

Doing this would be too risky especially with new untrained nervous guards. 
By pre-delivery a roster of the members and their approved family can be used to wave them thru quickly.

The last thing we want is a shoot-out at our gate over the food tally. This is all simplified by all agreeing to store the first 3 months prior to activation.


----------



## Annie

Denton said:


> You just confused us is all. I think this post cleared it up.


I'm still confused. What good is a not real 3D printer post SHTF? And @jimcosta, I'm not trying to give you the business, just trying to understand.


----------



## Annie

Slippy said:


> Jim,
> 
> I love your idea. The rest of these knuckleheads are just meanies.


_Oh, Mr Slippy's the nice one?!_ :vs_laugh:


----------



## jimcosta

Most of our policies were prepared formally so that if an issue with it comes up later on members can come up to speed as to how and why it was created to begin with. 
This prevents emotional changes without considering all of the ramifications that might come from a change. A simple change here may turn out to be a major change over there as well.

I still don't know how to attach a PDF file so here is the next best thing:

Proposal For
*MEMBER FURLOUGH PROCESS*

Submitted By: Planning
Adopted: 8/9/15

*The Problem: * 
Membership rules require a 90 Day Food Supply per adult for entrance.
What happens if an emergency goes way beyond the anticipated 90 days and the farm reaches a point at which it is not able to feed all members?

*The Facts: *

The 6 Cubic Foot Food Stock rule was only an estimate for a 90 day supply.
To date, six founding members have stockpiled 180 days food supply.
They are: Betty & Jim, Kevin & Melissa, Ernie & Jacky, and Keith.
To date, The above seven founding members have funded, built and maintains the agriculture systems at the farm, for their own benefit and to help feed other members.
We have a Seed Bank that may be too small to feed all members forever.
It may need to be enlarged by non-founding members.
We are new at farming and are feeding the founding members now. 
We do not know how much more we can produce with all members assisting.
The founding members have purchased required food for some inactive members that may not show up.
A food inventory tracking system will be used to compute daily consumption. This information may be used to increase or decrease consumption based on our estimate of activation time. We will know when a member's food has been fully consumed, with and without agriculture additives.

*Possible Options To Defer Furloughs:*

Increase seed bank.
Increase the number of Square Foot Garden Boxes for higher yields.
Members might build boxes and get extended food credit for it.
Members might work at the farm NOW to produce canned food for the group 
and receive credit for it.
Advise members to increase their food stock size, 
guaranteeing those members more time at the farm.
Some members may have to risk outside excursions to obtain additional food.
Members may increase food quantities by using churches and food banks.

*The Furlough Process:*

Furloughs to be decided by the Council.
Only Council members who have remaining food stocks will be allowed to vote on Furlough Process issues.
Members could be assisted in moving (food stock, transportation, etc.)
Members might be moved into a vacant neighboring house. 
We could then assist with water, gardening, medical, etc.

*Pros: *

It is a plan that could be understood by all. 
It leaves each member in charge of his own future.
It acknowledges the problem we may end up facing.
It acknowledges the extra effort put in by some.
The plan offers those without money a means to increase their food stocks.
If the group does not like the furlough actions taken or not taken, the group can change the Council makeup instead of an open revolt.

* Cons: *

It lacks definite dates and timing.


----------



## jimcosta

*Annie:* It was a play on words, like having a magic lamp to provide for us. For me, that magic lamp would be having a store of silver and other precious metals on hand as we get to the back side of the chaos. It might then be used to prolong the life of the group by purchasing from the outside.

In fact we now have an arrangement with a cattle rancher and a farmer to us having first option to purchase from them with silver. They do not know where we live.


----------



## Back Pack Hack

jimcosta said:


> *.........*The last thing we want is a shoot-out at our gate over the food tally. This is all simplified by all agreeing to store the first 3 months prior to activation.


If you think 'an agreement' is going to eliminate any post-SHTF conflict, you'll be in for a rude awakening.


----------



## Denton

jimcosta said:


> *Annie:* It was a play on words, like having a magic lamp to provide for us. For me, that magic lamp would be having a store of silver and other precious metals on hand as we get to the back side of the chaos. It might then be used to prolong the life of the group by purchasing from the outside.
> 
> In fact we now have an arrangement with a cattle rancher and a farmer to us having first option to purchase from them with silver. They do not know where we live.


Sounds like a setup, for sure. 
I do have a question or two, though. 
Are the supplies in a central location and are people's progress tracked?


----------



## Denton

By setup, I mean that to be a good thing, not like a scam. 

Just occurred to me that my wordage could have negative connotations


----------



## Back Pack Hack

jimcosta said:


> Most of our policies were prepared formally so that if an issue with it comes up later on members can come up to speed as to how and why it was created to begin with.
> This prevents emotional changes without considering all of the ramifications that might come from a change. A simple change here may turn out to be a major change over there as well.
> 
> I still don't know how to attach a PDF file so here is the next best thing:
> 
> Proposal For
> *MEMBER FURLOUGH PROCESS*
> 
> Submitted By: Planning
> Adopted: 8/9/15
> 
> *The Problem: *
> Membership rules require a 90 Day Food Supply per adult for entrance.
> What happens if an emergency goes way beyond the anticipated 90 days and the farm reaches a point at which it is not able to feed all members?
> 
> *The Facts: *
> 
> The 6 Cubic Foot Food Stock rule was only an estimate for a 90 day supply.
> To date, six founding members have stockpiled 180 days food supply.
> They are: Betty & Jim, Kevin & Melissa, Ernie & Jacky, and Keith.
> To date, The above seven founding members have funded, built and maintains the agriculture systems at the farm, for their own benefit and to help feed other members.
> We have a Seed Bank that may be too small to feed all members forever.
> It may need to be enlarged by non-founding members.
> We are new at farming and are feeding the founding members now.
> We do not know how much more we can produce with all members assisting.
> The founding members have purchased required food for some inactive members that may not show up.
> A food inventory tracking system will be used to compute daily consumption. This information may be used to increase or decrease consumption based on our estimate of activation time. We will know when a member's food has been fully consumed, with and without agriculture additives.
> 
> *Possible Options To Defer Furloughs:*
> 
> Increase seed bank.
> Increase the number of Square Foot Garden Boxes for higher yields.
> Members might build boxes and get extended food credit for it.
> Members might work at the farm NOW to produce canned food for the group
> and receive credit for it.
> Advise members to increase their food stock size,
> guaranteeing those members more time at the farm.
> Some members may have to risk outside excursions to obtain additional food.
> Members may increase food quantities by using churches and food banks.
> 
> *The Furlough Process:*
> 
> Furloughs to be decided by the Council.
> Only Council members who have remaining food stocks will be allowed to vote on Furlough Process issues.
> Members could be assisted in moving (food stock, transportation, etc.)
> Members might be moved into a vacant neighboring house.
> We could then assist with water, gardening, medical, etc.
> 
> *Pros: *
> 
> It is a plan that could be understood by all.
> It leaves each member in charge of his own future.
> It acknowledges the problem we may end up facing.
> It acknowledges the extra effort put in by some.
> The plan offers those without money a means to increase their food stocks.
> If the group does not like the furlough actions taken or not taken, the group can change the Council makeup instead of an open revolt.
> 
> * Cons: *
> 
> It lacks definite dates and timing.


Jesus. Is this a MAG, or is someone buying a $20mil house? If this is the language of just ONE aspect of this 'group' (and I use the term loosely), I can only imagine the 4,000-page document that covers everything.

Lots of ambiguity here as well. _Might, could be, does not like._... wouldn't stand up in court today, let alone when people are starving post-SHTF.

Here's the agreement with the members of my MAG: "_Hey, listen: If things go to sh*t, you're welcome at my place. Bring what you can with you... we'll make it work._" Yeah, you might consider it over-simplistic, but how the he11 are you going to 'enforce' your agreements? Give Vinnie and Bruno a couple of machine guns and tell 'em to give 'em a choice or else their legs get broken? Suppose Vinnie and Bruno just shoot the lock off the food pantry and abscond with all the goodies? Now are you ALL going to 'move into a vacant neighboring house'?


----------



## jimcosta

Denton said:


> Sounds like a setup, for sure.
> I do have a question or two, though.
> Are the supplies in a central location and are people's progress tracked?


*Denton: *
*Food Locations:* 
Inside a 50 X 50 steel barn with loft;
Packed inside two small campers;
Packed inside a small portable building;
2 small sheds owned by members;
Jam packed inside a 20 x 10 building with a/c;

We just brought in a 40 foot container. It was modified for a 10' x 8' air conditioned food room. 
I was shocked at how well it works. I was able to put R38 blanket insulation in the ceiling for just $100. R13 in the walls for less than $200.
The small A/C unit runs on the absolute lowest running (warmest) setting when the timer kicks it on during the day.

The rear of the container can receive pallets of Sam's food and placed on PVC pipes and then slid to the rear.

Finally we have about ten 4 foot cube plastic containers inside steel cages (IBC Storage Totes). Each tote will hold a three month food supply for two adults.

Some food is mixed together with a detailed inventory by member. Some members have their food segregated but still at the farm.
Some members still have excess food stored at their homes.

*Peoples Progress*. This is a tough one.

* The requirements are: *
food; 
a long gun and 1,000 rounds for all able bodied men;
Handguns to be worn by all able bodied adults. 
*
What is suggested is:*
Two sleeping bags per person (20 degree and zero degree for Florida);
All soaps personal medical supplies;
Housing / Tents
All other camping supplies needed;
Equipment to pull guard duty.

But we do not monitor the suggested items.


----------



## jimcosta

Back Pack Hack said:


> If you think 'an agreement' is going to eliminate any post-SHTF conflict, you'll be in for a rude awakening.


*BPH*: Good contracts / agreements are designed to be broken.

In this case performance by both parties will be occurring throughout the chaos. If one side defaults then the other side also defaults. No big deal as both of us will be harmed equally. Our losses will be at a minimum.

We will help guard the cattle and crops. We can't stop people from looting but we can safely scare them off without them removing their plunder. It then goes to its owner.

There are no real guarantees in life. You just do the best you can and move on. 
But somewhere you have to have trust and that is based on honesty and fair dealings with others.


----------



## ND_ponyexpress_

OPSEC is a big problem... assuming no one knows where you are is a little unrealistic..50 adults do + anyone they told.. guarantee the mailman knows... even if you don't get mail... we know everything..


----------



## jimcosta

*BPH: * *"Lots of ambiguity here as well. Might, could be, does not like.... wouldn't stand up in court today, let alone when people are starving post-SHTF."*

*Might and could be and may* are terms suggesting something may happen and not MUST happen or could be considered. They were chosen for a purpose.

*Will, shall and must *means it must be this way.


----------



## jimcosta

*ND*: Disclosure of location to non-members is an automatic cause of eviction. This is known to all members.
If a non-member shows up after activation that member may be out as they are now a danger to the group.

Members are free to tell others of the group and just that we are North of XXXXX. That is all they can say.

*P.S. *All of my life I have admired square sail ships of yesteryear, especially the beauty of the Captain's Quarters. I once even went to Norfolk just to eyeball two such rooms.
The woodwork is absolutely beautiful to admire. But prior to a sea battle one wall is taken down and cannons are rolled in. That beautiful room is now a common cannon deck.

So too with our retreat. This place looks just like an ordinary farm and nothing else. No disrespect to the Postal department intended.

Shooting walls have been up and now overgrown with weeds and ivy. Nothing to see here folks.

We are currently camo painting all the framing timbers to raise a 4 foot by 8 foot horizontal deck seven feet off the ground and place it behind a clump of thick taller bushes.
When it is installed it will have a steel bottom and two railroad ties to shoot between. The day it is set in place it will be invisable. Even the top deck will be camoflauged so Google use will have a hard time spotting it.


----------



## Redneck

I'll give it to you @jimcosta, you are really trying. I appreciate folks who think beyond stocking food for themselves & thinking they can fight off everyone during an extended crisis. I have said for years that I think group survival is best.

Where we differ is, I think everyone in the group has to be equal... just like family. There is no one solution for making all equal but there are solutions. I'm afraid all the work you do now regarding protecting the group & property will be undone soon as you start booting out some of your members. You seem to think they will accept that peacefully & quietly. My expectation is they won't. So now you have very well armed people, inside your compound, being forced to leave & facing death by starvation... all the while knowing there is still food available. In that case, you could easily have armed conflict with all sorts of folks getting killed or wounded. Even if there is no conflict immediately, I'd be very concerned about these folks that got booted coming back later with other desperate people. That is the worst case, as these folks know everything about your situation.

In my book, the avoidance of conflict is as important as food in storage. Seems to me, the very rules that govern your community will force conflict... not prevent it. But just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## Denton

Here's my thoughts, for what they are worth. Understand that even though our families are from the same area, experiences may be different, neighbor. (Allentown).

One should really know all the members, intimately. I know my friends well. No contract is needed as we are like-minded. I have so much food and ammo that it is overflowing into my living room yet some of the bunch have more than I do. There is no reason to kick anyone out. We wouldn't do such a thing as we believe that noboy is left behind. Yes, we are all vets or those who are of the right material and have learned from us. Christians all. No contraft needed as we are "related," one way or another.

If you are allowing anyone into the group that needs a contract or who isn't as motivated, you are screwing the pooch. Starve them out and they might find a group that is the antithesis of us and your world will go to hell. Yes, not all vets are good. Something all of us have to realize.

If you are willing to take in a member, you'd beter know that member. No contract needed. Upfront, know that person. Santa Rosa has no high ground. A disgruntled stranger will give you and his new friends no advantage.

Your council sucks. That y'all believe a council is needed sucks.

Just my point of view


----------



## jimcosta

*Denton: * Thanks for your thoughts.

*The truth is there is no one correct way to form a group.* That is why there are no cook books out there to follow.

We began with the goal of helping XX number of people to survive. None of us are in Veteran clubs. None of us were in shooting clubs. We just had families and most of us did not have family in this area.
Sometimes you have to play the golf ball where it lays now and not where you wished it lays. We played with what we had.

It sounds like our biggest difference is your group sounds like all extended family and your group will divide up food equally no matter who pitched in what amounts originally.

We began with little extended family at first. Founding members wanted to be assured they would not have to share their food.

Is one way better than another? I don't know.

In our case, I had to broker with unknown families to begin with and this is how the deal was cut for our group. In the end our members are content with it.


----------



## StratMaster

Denton said:


> PMs were money long before fiat came along. Doesn't mean the fake money is a new thing. Take Roman coins. The older ones are in much better condition than the later ones because the Empire, as it lost its wealth and strength, started coining with crap metal that didn't stand the test of time.
> I know people around here, from bootleggers to homesteaders, who will take either gold, silver or ammo for their excess (or product) when the crap hits the fan. Don't bother with defunct currency; they'll only accept real money or ammo.
> Don't think PMs are only a store of wealth. There are Old Testament people out there, still.


Sure, I know a small handful of people like that too. That's a direct result of the type of people we associate with: like minded preppers. The world in general resembles that mindset in no way. Here's a video of a man trying to offer folks on the streets a free 10 ounce bar of silver OR a chocolate bar. He's done many other such videos: trying to sell a 1 ounce gold coin for $25, and trying to sell a 100 ounce silver bar for $25. The vast amount of people engaged have no idea of the value... none. Out in the regular world, outside of our oddball circle, it is alarming how many do not recognize gold or silver as having any value... even if offered FREE.


----------



## Denton

jimcosta said:


> *Denton: * Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> *The truth is there is no one correct way to form a group.* That is why there are no cook books out there to follow.
> 
> We began with the goal of helping XX number of people to survive. None of us are in Veteran clubs. None of us were in shooting clubs. We just had families and most of us did not have family in this area.
> Sometimes you have to play the golf ball where it lays now and not where you wished it lays. We played with what we had.
> 
> It sounds like our biggest difference is your group sounds like all extended family and your group will divide up food equally no matter who pitched in what amounts originally.
> 
> We began with little extended family at first. Founding members wanted to be assured they would not have to share their food.
> 
> Is one way better than another? I don't know.
> 
> In our case, I had to broker with unknown families to begin with and this is how the deal was cut for our group. In the end our members are content with it.


First off, we vets are not a club and it'd be best that you don't call us such. We are a fraternity, and our families are a part of it. Do not belittle us.

Now, if your members are willing to feel like they are not a part of one, so be it. Understand, those same members might be your future enemies if your team dosn't believe in no member is to be left behind and if you don't make damned sure that every member believes that and lives that. Brothers in arms need no contract. All others are doomed. Not your position? Not your members' position? Everyone is not all in? You can guess the end. Wait for the stuff to hit the fan.

Don't listen to me. Who am I? Nobody. It's your group. I'll not benefit or detract from it. I'll just say again, we'll leave no brother behind and no brother won't do his best. If your club isn't the same, you need another brotherhood.


----------



## Denton

StratMaster said:


> Sure, I know a small handful of people like that too. That's a direct result of the type of people we associate with: like minded preppers. The world in general resembles that mindset in no way. Here's a video of a man trying to offer folks on the streets a free 10 ounce bar of silver OR a chocolate bar. He's done many other such videos: trying to sell a 1 ounce gold coin for $25, and trying to sell a 100 ounce silver bar for $25. The vast amount of people engaged have no idea of the value... none. Out in the regular world, outside of our oddball circle, it is alarming how many do not recognize gold or silver as having any value... even if offered FREE.


I've seen that. We aren't dimwitted Californians.

Would you like me to give you clips of the DNC as how Americans think?


----------



## StratMaster




----------



## StratMaster

.........................


----------



## StratMaster

......................


----------



## jimb1972

Denton said:


> I've seen that. We aren't dimwitted Californians.
> 
> Would you like me to give you clips of the DNC as how Americans think?


I would probably roll the dice and buy it. Keep in mind though for $2 on Wish you can buy a fake 1oz gold bar that looks so real most can't tell the difference, and I wouldn't bet on my ability to do so either.


----------



## Back Pack Hack

jimcosta said:


> *BPH*: Good contracts / agreements are designed to be broken..........


My first guess was you were a lawyer. You just shot that, plus your own foot, all to he11.


----------



## StratMaster

Denton said:


> I've seen that. We aren't dimwitted Californians.
> 
> Would you like me to give you clips of the DNC as how Americans think?


Well, we'll just have to disagree on this one. Outside of one's own circle, where we think people would of course know about the value of gold or silver, they just don't. Taking Cali dimwits out of the equation, I would say a walk through most ANY municipality would garner a very similar alarming response. Even those who KNEW it was valuable, would not have any idea just HOW valuable... $100, $500, $2000?... and therefore no basis by which to measure an exchange. PM's will be traded between the like minded folks, but not in general. If supplies are short, said supplies will supplant (temporarily) the perceived value of PM's in the general population as well. I myself am a gold silver bug... so if I'm wrong I win too. If it turns into a thing, I will benefit. If it doesn't, I will benefit when the economic collapse starts normalizing again.


----------



## StratMaster

jimb1972 said:


> I would probably roll the dice and buy it. Keep in mind though for $2 on Wish you can buy a fake 1oz gold bar that looks so real most can't tell the difference, and I wouldn't bet on my ability to do so either.


That's an absolute concern as well: Chinese fakes being sold on social media sites are FLOODING the market. Fake Canadian Maple Leafs, and Fake Silver coins which look like they came straight from the mint. Which is why I only trade PM's with a digital coin scanner and Fisch Ringers right there present. I won't buy/trade a coin now without a scan... far, FAR too many of the bad ones out there now.


----------



## Denton

jimb1972 said:


> I would probably roll the dice and buy it. Keep in mind though for $2 on Wish you can buy a fake 1oz gold bar that looks so real most can't tell the difference, and I wouldn't bet on my ability to do so either.


I'll go by me and those I know. Can't worry about other people's ignorance of hundreds of years of history. I'm too lazy to care.


----------



## Denton

StratMaster said:


> Well, we'll just have to disagree on this one. Outside of one's own circle, where we think people would of course know about the value of gold or silver, they just don't. Taking Cali dimwits out of the equation, I would say a walk through most ANY municipality would garner a very similar alarming response. Even those who KNEW it was valuable, would not have any idea just HOW valuable... $100, $500, $2000?... and therefore no basis by which to measure an exchange. PM's will be traded between the like minded folks, but not in general. If supplies are short, said supplies will supplant (temporarily) the perceived value of PM's in the general population as well. I myself am a gold silver bug... so if I'm wrong I win too. If it turns into a thing, I will benefit. If it doesn't, I will benefit when the economic collapse starts normalizing again.


Your municipality probably can't produce abundant produce. Mine can. They are smarter than you can understand, it seems. 
Disagree at your time an risk. Be unprepared.


----------



## StratMaster

Denton said:


> Your municipality probably can't produce abundant produce. Mine can. They are smarter than you can understand, it seems.
> Disagree at your time an risk. Be unprepared.


*Wow*

I have plenty of PM's, likely way more than the average Joe because I have been stockpiling it for 25 years. So I am covered either way. Not at risk. Not "unprepared". Ready to go, and better so than most. I'm not sure just why your lip is out so far... this is just a thread where friendly opinions are being exchanged: it isn't a personal slur towards YOU. Just one opinion from personal experience which doesn't happen to agree with yours. So what?


----------



## Denton

StratMaster said:


> *Wow*
> 
> I have plenty of PM's, likely way more than the average Joe because I have been stockpiling it for 25 years. So I am covered either way. Not at risk. Not "unprepared". Ready to go, and better so than most. I'm not sure just why your lip is out so far... this is just a thread where friendly opinions are being exchanged: it isn't a personal slur towards YOU. Just one opinion from personal experience which doesn't happen to agree with yours. So what?


I'm sure you are but others aren't and those groups like the ones in this local area (municipality was the wrong word. Reading the local news and posting at the same time crossed wires!) grow more than they need and will sell for silver. Silver might be more valuable for some than they realize. 
I'm sure the folks in this area aren't oddities in that regard. Other regards, probably!


----------



## Denton

Sorry @jimcosta. The hurricane is now headed your way and it is my fault. I bought a generator for my parents which caused it to be moe interested in the Mobile area.

I paid for it, though. I not only tweaked my back while unloading it but I also did something to my shoulder and now can't raise my arm. :vs_mad:


----------



## jimb1972

Denton said:


> I'll go by me and those I know. Can't worry about other people's ignorance of hundreds of years of history. I'm too lazy to care.


Pull that stick out there Denton. I own precious metals and buy them from reputable sources like APMEX and JM Bullion, my comment was in regards to buying it from some guy on the street selling it for significantly less than spot price.


----------



## MountainGirl

Interesting thread. 
My only comment is: Man plans, God laughs.
Good luck!!


----------



## Maine-Marine

An oz of silver for $1000.. i can not wait for that.. I will be debt free and living in a mansion


----------



## Elvis

I understand where the OP is but he seems to have set up a larger MAG of unrelated people and has the "out the door" policy to encourage them to build their food levels above the initial 3 month requirement his group seems to have. 
I suspect that most here instead only intend to include close family members which may result in a smaller group than Jim is envisioning and would have a harder time putting a family member "out the door" if their supplies ran out.

In my case the family members with deeper pockets all contribute the minimum required supplies and extra when they can. A few members with younger kids simply cannot afford 6 months of extra food along with other required supplies so they stock at lower levels but they do contribute. Others who are stronger financially help make up the difference. We are family.
In my case the area is fairly defensible and there will be enough people here to maintain a watch and while spread out the neighbors all help watch the area. Neighbors all have put a little extra away, some more than others, so this should be a fairly low threat area for quite a while.

As far as stockpiling PMs it's up to you, But instead of another ounce of gold ($1800) you could instead buy a huge amount of rice. If a member of your MAG runs out of food instead of turning out what may be a valuable member who ran out of food instead you could put them on a rice diet. A pound of dried white rice is roughly 2500 calories so a solid day's food. With $1800 you could buy about 30 cases of #10 cans of rice or enough to feed a person a really shitty 2000 calorie per day diet for almost 3 years. @jimcosta


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## jimcosta

@Elvis: I agree with everything you said. In fact some of us have done everything you said.

But consider you have a wealthy person join and does nothing except bring in his bare minimum? Too late and too little concern. Should that person now be a burden to the group?
Also consider that one person cannot be expected to pre-adopt 10 to 100 unknown persons.

Consider your group eventually merging or cooperating with one or two other groups locally. Will all your members now adopt those in the area that have not prepped?
Will such a merger cause mutiny in your group?
*
There are many terrifying future possibilities.* So we approached it that each family is responsible for their own food supply, it is sacred and controlled by them only.
Our hope was and is that each family will be more motivated to over stock for themselves so we never have food problems and can perhaps be more generous.

But to assemble with bare minimum supplies and some under supplied, and not covered by their own family, is suicide in my opinion. Why paint yourself in the corner before you even start 
activation?

There is no right or wrong way to do this. There is just the way a particular group approaches the problem.

But for a close family with bare supplies, you may be in shock when one member shows up with a large number of extended family members with no supplies. Be prepared to encounter this.


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## Trihonda

I'm really disappointed. I'm a hobbiest with 3-D printing, and I come into this thread, and not one useful tip on using my printer for prepping... 



Though apparently all the silver I purchased recently will be worth millions! 

On a serious note about silver and PM's in a SHTF scenario. I think most agree that in case of economic collapse, life survival items will hold more immediate value. I also agree with others ITT that said silver and PM's are more valuable as a wealth place holder. In otherwords, I can hold onto some of my wealth in PMs, and after the economy and society rebuilds, the wealth represented by those PM's will hold some value after a reset of some sort. Whereas any paper money or stocks, ETFs, pensions, 401ks, etc... might be completely worthless.

I also hear some say that trade value of silver and PMs are worthless during SHTF? I don't agree, and here's why: If we can all agree that PM's will retain some value through a SHTF scenario, even if it might not be actualized until after recovery, then it by rights has some value DURING the SHTF.. There will be a number of people who want to trade, get back to business, and accrue wealth. If they believe a commodity will have value after recovery, it's likely people will take it in trade. Societies crave (and need) some form of currency. And PMs have been the literal "gold standard" for currency throughout civilization. 

If I'm all set on my preps, with far more than I need, AND I'm approached by someone wishing to obtain some food and/or ammo (whatever), I think I'd take their silver or gold in trade. At some point, there's going to be a recovery, and these metals will have value. If others feel the same way, then these metals can be traded and accepted even more. That said, in a SHTF scenario, my food and ammo will be pricy (supply and demand).


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## Elvis

jimcosta said:


> @Elvis:
> 
> But consider you have a wealthy person join and does nothing except bring in his bare minimum? Too late and too little concern. Should that person now be a burden to the group?
> Also consider that one person cannot be expected to pre-adopt 10 to 100 unknown persons.
> 
> But for a close family with bare supplies, you may be in shock when one member shows up with a large number of extended family members with no supplies. Be prepared to encounter this.


As far as bring in a new wealthy member that is not a consideration. We are a set family not likely to change in size for the next 10 years. 
A hard requirement is that only people in the original group are allowed to stay or eat on this property. Every family member is welcome to leave at any time with any supplies they personally own.
The only exception is I do have one unmarried son who will be here. I do put up a little extra in case he shows up with a girlfriend. But he knows not to bring a girlfriend unless he's ready to marry her.


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## Back Pack Hack

Trihonda said:


> I'm really disappointed. I'm a hobbiest with 3-D printing, and I come into this thread, and not one useful tip on using my printer for prepping..........


OK, here's a tip: Start printing AR lowers.


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## Trihonda

Back Pack Hack said:


> OK, here's a tip: Start printing AR lowers.


In theory this would be great, buuut in the end, it's just plastic or resin, and I'd really have a hard time trusting a layered plastic part to withstand the rigors internal combustion.


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## Chiefster23

Bushmaster used to make the ‘Carbon 14’ model. It had a plastic lower but I don’t know what kind of plastic.
I heard tell of a guy that used his 3-D printer to make 22 caliber suppressors. They didn’t hold up to repeated firings but supposedly worked just fine for the first few shots. After that, just print out a new one.


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