# Pit bulls harmless puppies



## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Pit bulls harmless puppies. Here we go again. The poor little wonderful pets everyone misunderstands. The police officer must be charged and jailed for kill them helpless dogs . Don't care who I piss off Pit bulls are not Pets.

"A Texas woman died on Saturday after she was "attacked by her two pit bull terriers," police said."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-pet-owner-dead-attacked-by-her-two-pit-bull-terriers-police


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> Pit bulls harmless puppies. Here we go again. The poor little wonderful pets everyone misunderstands. The police officer must be charged and jailed for kill them helpless dogs . Don't care who I piss off Pit bulls are not Pets.
> 
> "A Texas woman died on Saturday after she was "attacked by her two pit bull terriers," police said."
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-pet-owner-dead-attacked-by-her-two-pit-bull-terriers-police


And guns kill people.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

stevekozak said:


> And guns kill people.


 Not on their own. Pits bulls have been killing and disfiguring people for years . They are a very flawed breed. They serve no use.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Smitty901 said:


> Not on their own. Pits bulls have been killing and disfiguring people for years . They are a very flawed breed. They serve no use.


Human's are a pretty flawed breed (species) as well. I have no dog in the fight (pun intended), as I have never owned a Pit, but the story you linked is missing a lot of information. I think dogs, much like the aforementioned humans, are often as influenced by environment as genetics.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Smitty is mostly correct regarding Pit Bulls. 

Mostly because....most people have no idea how to be a true dog owner. 

The American Pit Bull Terrier needs an Alpha Owner not someone who thinks that dogs have human instincts because they don't. They have dog instincts. 

If the owner does not achieve Pack Leader Status, the Pit Bull is destined to have problems. Do not get a Pit Bull unless you have the proper dog training credentials AND you are sure that you can be the Alpha of your pack. Hell, I wouldn't get a Pit Bull unless I was single because any inconsistency in training, discipline and daily activity can mess the Pit Bull up. You may be able to get away with inconsistencies with other breeds but not the Pit Bull, the Belgian Malinois and a few other breeds.

That's my take.


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## Lunatic Wrench (May 13, 2018)

The thing people don't know about dogs is 70-80% of dog breeds didn't even exist 90-100 years ago.
What people forget or never give a thought to and far too often just ignore, aside from being animals, is dogs are breed and crossbred to achieve a desired attribute.
If you breed enough of the smallest pups of the litter and keep doing so, you will eventually end up with a dog that will fit in your shirt pocket. 
If you bred the dogs that like to swim and cross bred them with dogs that have an interest in birds with dogs that loyaley obey, you'll get a fine bird dog.
I think you all can see where this is going.
They are just animals and can, will and do default to their breeding, it's there nature. It's not the dogs fault regardless of how well or bad it was raised, it's the stupid humans fault.


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## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

This one is taking a break from playing fetch because she's scared of the thunder that has just started


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## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

Slippy said:


> Smitty is mostly correct regarding Pit Bulls.
> 
> Mostly because....most people have no idea how to be a true dog owner.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I have no problem being the Alpha and my dog and my woman know it. That's why they behave so well.....oh crap I'm in it now


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## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

I do take special care, because I know my pit is a lover, but she is very capable of hurting something or someone quickly and powerfully. 

I love her, and would get another in the future.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Top 10 most dangerous dog breeds in the world.

https://www.insidedogsworld.com/top10-most-dangerous-dog-breeds-in-theworld

Time and again in that article you will see early socialization, and early training are paramount.

We have had many different dogs over the last 40 years, including 3 on that list. Several German Shepherds, one Boxer and one "pit bull" (that term actually covers several distinct varieties).
Of them all, our full blood Boxer was the most gentle, laid back dog I have ever seen. Other than our Labs, of course. Don't know what her early life was like, she was full grown when my wife rescued her from the side of the road.
Our little pittie was a cool guy but I will never have another. The chance for unpredictable behavior is always there.


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## T-Man 1066 (Jan 3, 2016)

I had some great-uncles back in the 30's through the 40's that fought dogs. They didn't fight collies and dachshunds. Yes, I agree that their environment and people play a huge role into it. But some breeds are more likely to attack than others. For those that love their pits, treat them well, and maintain the clarity of which one of you is alpha. I will continue to enjoy her ankle biting Maltese. I prefer my cat MouseTrap, but for similar reasons I took in a stray domestic shorthair, not a puma or a jaguar.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

For every pit that attacks someone, millions more never do.
Blaming the breed for a few bad eggs would doom humankind to the trash heap.

As stated, the pit (and numerous other breeds) requires a strong pack leadership. Most working dogs need this. Millions of years of evolution, and thousands of years of domestication, have lead to this. Expecting otherwise is asinine. A working dog with no alpha to follow *WILL* attempt to assume the role. They cannot function in any other state. Either they have a leader they can trust, or they become the leader. Simple as that.
Don't care who I piss off. Stupid people blame the dog. Stupid people ignore millions of years of ingrained instinct.

Yes, I owned a pit bull. I was the alpha, and that dog knew it. He was not a "family lap dog". He was a dog. He was a beta, and I made damn sure of it. He owned NOTHING, and he knew it. He ate AFTER I ate, and he knew it. He was happy to have this relationship because it gave him order. He followed instruction, treated my kids with respect, and was happy all the time. He had a stable pack life to rely on. Unless you really know dogs, you can't possibly understand how important that is for them, especially the working breeds.

Now, if your idea of a dog is some fluffy thing you can carry in your purse, you have no idea what I'm talking about, nor should you ever own a working dog.

If you can't handle 2 tons of machinery, don't own a car. If you can't bear the financial burden, don't have a family. If you can't be the owner your dog needs, DON'T OWN A PIT.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

T-Man 1066 said:


> I had some great-uncles back in the 30's through the 40's that fought dogs. They didn't fight collies and dachshunds.


Did those fighting dogs EVER bite their handler?
What happened if they did?

*IF* you can answer these two things, you should see the error in bringing this up.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Did those fighting dogs EVER bite their handler?
> What happened if they did?
> 
> *IF* you can answer these two things, you should see the error in bringing this up.


"IF" a fighting dog bites the handler, the dog is either put to death or taken and dropped off in the woods or the middle of nowhere. Or so I've heard...


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Slippy said:


> "IF" a fighting dog bites the handler, the dog is either put to death or taken and dropped off in the woods or the middle of nowhere. Or so I've heard...


In the deep underbelly of dog fighting, any dog that showed aggression toward a human was immediately killed, and any offspring they produced was too.
Aggression toward humans was NOT tolerated, and not allowed to propagate.

This is yet another reason why people who blame the breed are speaking from ignorance. When pits were bred *FOR* fighting, it was fighting other dogs. No leniency was given if aggression toward humans was noticed. *THAT* breeding lead to a loyal and human-friendly working dog. *THAT* breeding has gone by the wayside, and most idiots just want a tough dog that can act mean. They have no idea how stupid they are being when they don't control the breeding.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Good thread. Never owned a Pit but never had any issues with them over the years. Crazy Jerman Jepppards and weenie dogs always bit me. Having raised a big Rotty for 17 years...will testify as mentioned big work breed dogs need to know who is the Alpha. I could get that dog to do about anything. He would mind my wife about half the time and tuned the kids grandkids plumb out of the loop. Best old dog I ever had. They have a two year childhood in which they are crazy. I just dont have the time or energy to raise another.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I like the gun analogy....lets go with that one.....So people want to own a gun. I agree with their right to own that gun...They want to take that gun out in public, we'll Ok...I support your right to defend yourself whenever you feel the need to....so OK.

Now, you stick that gun in your hand and point it in my direction, up down, at me, my kids, letting your gun pee on my grass.... with me not knowing if your gun is loaded or not, is the safety on, can that guy handle that gun?...Well now I have a vested interest in what you can and can't do with your gun.

Its like watching the 90's crew role in on their Harley's and cowboy hats and boots.... Ain't none of them new shit about the bike, had never ridden a damn horse, and didn't even understand the difference in a straw hat or a stetson...They just had to own those things.... Same way with Pit bulls. I want people who have these pets to be put in prison if their dog attacks anyone.... Assault with a deadly weapon.

Like I said before...My son wants to get a Pit... The reason he doesn't is that he knows I will kill it if he lets it near my Grand daughter..... Well....would you let your Grand daughter play with guns? Not me.....just sayin.


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## T-Man 1066 (Jan 3, 2016)

Kauboy said:


> Did those fighting dogs EVER bite their handler?
> What happened if they did?
> 
> *IF* you can answer these two things, you should see the error in bringing this up.


I can't speak for that as this was 30 years before I was born. I do know people with game chickens do not destroy the cock if they turn on the handler, which they do frequently. Still it is a different animal and dynamic and I get that. But even a 6# cock with long knives ain't nothing to take for granted. Power to weight ratio is impressive.


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## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

We started out with a little Maltese, 8 pounds. Then we got a miniature dachshund Yorkie mix, 12 lb. Girlfriend knew I didn't want more dogs unless it was a big one, she saw Lola the Pitbull up for adoption at 6 months old, I was nervous when I first heard about it.
Only heard bad things when I heard about them at all. We took her to training immediately which helped us and the dog, and I make sure to socialize and continue training and exercising her everyday. It is a lot of work but she's a great dog that loves everybody, there are some situations with other dogs I still have to be attentive and control of the leash. But that's what I have to do. It's a higher risk dog, takes more attention and effort. That's really it.

The damn eight pound Maltese is the one with the attitude and nipping at people problem, the Pitbull she's a lover.

We also have a cat who came even before the girlfriend, which by the way has been with me for 9 years tomorrow. The cat has been with me for almost 11 years. Anyway all of the pets get along wonderfully


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Old SF Guy said:


> I like the gun analogy....lets go with that one.....So people want to own a gun. I agree with their right to own that gun...They want to take that gun out in public, we'll Ok...I support your right to defend yourself whenever you feel the need to....so OK.
> 
> Now, you stick that gun in your hand and point it in my direction, up down, at me, my kids, letting your gun pee on my grass.... with me not knowing if your gun is loaded or not, is the safety on, can that guy handle that gun?...Well now I have a vested interest in what you can and can't do with your gun.
> 
> ...


Well, if that's the logic, you should kill his car while you're at it.

Terrible analogies lead to terrible reasoning.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

The man across the street is the alpha of the two pits. When the two pits decided to take down my niece's daughter, my wife was the barrier until I backed her up. The "alpha" wasn't there almost in time. He was there just before the .45 pellets fixed the problem.
The dogs are no longer in the equation.
Get the damned point?

I love dogs. I worked them in the army. Don't tell me about dogs. I know dogs. 

Dogs are like guns. Can't control or work them? Don't own them. I'll put you and them down. Is it worth it? Is it, punk?


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Slippy said:


> "IF" a fighting dog bites the handler, the dog is either put to death or taken and dropped off in the woods or the middle of nowhere. Or so I've heard...





Kauboy said:


> In the deep underbelly of dog fighting, any dog that showed aggression toward a human was immediately killed, and any offspring they produced was too.
> Aggression toward humans was NOT tolerated, and not allowed to propagate.
> 
> This is yet another reason why people who blame the breed are speaking from ignorance. When pits were bred *FOR* fighting, it was fighting other dogs. No leniency was given if aggression toward humans was noticed. *THAT* breeding lead to a loyal and human-friendly working dog. *THAT* breeding has gone by the wayside, and most idiots just want a tough dog that can act mean. They have no idea how stupid they are being when they don't control the breeding.


There is a low key sub culture in East Texas that fights both cocks and dogs. Don't tell Michael Vick about it though.


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## A Watchman (Sep 14, 2015)

Slippy said:


> "IF" a fighting dog bites the handler, the dog is either put to death or taken and dropped off in the woods or the middle of nowhere. Or so I've heard...





SGG said:


> We started out with a little Maltese, 8 pounds. Then we got a miniature dachshund Yorkie mix, 12 lb. Girlfriend knew I didn't want more dogs unless it was a big one, she saw Lola the Pitbull up for adoption at 6 months old, I was nervous when I first heard about it.
> Only heard bad things when I heard about them at all. We took her to training immediately which helped us and the dog, and I make sure to socialize and continue training and exercising her everyday. It is a lot of work but she's a great dog that loves everybody, there are some situations with other dogs I still have to be attentive and control of the leash. But that's what I have to do. It's a higher risk dog, takes more attention and effort. That's really it.
> 
> The damn eight pound Maltese is the one with the attitude and nipping at people problem, the Pitbull she's a lover.
> ...


I am betting that out of that group the two that yapp and nip the most is the lap dog and the girlfriend! :tango_face_wink:


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## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

Haha^^^
@Denton.... I am with my pitbull all of the time. I don't even let them into our fenced backyard to go to the bathroom without being out there with them every single time. I do you know that my pitbull could cause a lot of damage, to be honest I always think about it in the back of my head.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

SGG said:


> Haha^^^
> @Denton.... I am with my pitbull all of the time. I don't even let them into our fenced backyard to go to the bathroom without being out there with them every single time. I do you know that my pitbull could cause a lot of damage, to be honest I always think about it in the back of my head.


The owner was in his yard at the time, too. He thought he could turn his back for a second, and that's all it takes.

Breeds have characteristics. People may not like that and they may want to argue against that, but it is a fact. I'm not arguing against pitties but I am saying they are what they are.


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## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

They are what they are, that is why I I'm always attentive. I definitely don't argue for pitbulls for everyone


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## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

What I think is sad is how many attacks are a different breed yet they usually aren't reported with the breed. Yet anytime it's a pit bull, everyone goes crazy. It's not fair, and ignorance makes me madder than anything else in this world


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

SGG said:


> What I think is sad is how many attacks are a different breed yet they usually aren't reported with the breed. Yet anytime it's a pit bull, everyone goes crazy. It's not fair, and ignorance makes me madder than anything else in this world


Add to the fact that far too many people mis-identify the breed as a pit.
Pick the Pit - Can you find the Pitbull?


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Add to the fact that far too many people mis-identify the breed as a pit.
> Pick the Pit - Can you find the Pitbull?


Excellent point Kauboy
Here is the breed info on the American Bulldog...
https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanbulldog.htm
Plus an article that I read a few months ago on some Alabama Hog hunters that use American Bulldogs
https://www.outdoorlife.com/hog-hunting-dogs


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## Jen (Mar 24, 2019)

Pit bulls are like any other breed. If they are trained wrong they could have the potential of being agressive. My parents dog could have been dangerous if he was trained wrong.The dog’s breed is meant to hunt wild boar. However, he was trained to protect his owners and knows how to be extremely sweet with children and with the people his owners say are good.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Well, if that's the logic, you should kill his car while you're at it.
> 
> Terrible analogies lead to terrible reasoning.


Naw...the analogy is accurate...you are free to own these things, but when you lose control of them and they kill or maim, you should go to prison. period. If you own a gun you can't control, a car you can't control, or an animal you can't control....you are responsible for what it does....period.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> In the deep underbelly of dog fighting, any dog that showed aggression toward a human was immediately killed, and any offspring they produced was too.
> Aggression toward humans was NOT tolerated, and not allowed to propagate.
> 
> This is yet another reason why people who blame the breed are speaking from ignorance. When pits were bred *FOR* fighting, it was fighting other dogs. No leniency was given if aggression toward humans was noticed. *THAT* breeding lead to a loyal and human-friendly working dog. *THAT* breeding has gone by the wayside, and most idiots just want a tough dog that can act mean. They have no idea how stupid they are being when they don't control the breeding.


I'm confused...are you blaming the breed for changing or the lack of proper breeding applications? It illegal to kill off puppies anymore qnd has been for a long time....so the ability to control the human fear has been diluted....this is both a failure of the breed, which raises overall aggression and response , even towards humans and thats a natural progression of the breed.

I don't disagree with you on what has caused this, but if the natural evolutionary growth is of a dog more aggressive towards human...then they should not be labeled as pets....working dogs makbe...but controlled under tighter scrutiny and exposure to the public.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Old SF Guy said:


> Naw...the analogy is accurate...you are free to own these things, but when you lose control of them and they kill or maim, you should go to prison. period. If you own a gun you can't control, a car you can't control, or an animal you can't control....you are responsible for what it does....period.


You said you'd kill your son's potential pit if he let it "get near" your granddaughter. Without any reason to believe that particular dog would do anything, you'd kill it based on proximity due to incidents that other dogs were involved in.
If that is your logic, his car, though never having harmed anyone, should share the same fate due to the potential for immense harm that has been shown in wrecks involving other cars.

See how that doesn't make sense?



Old SF Guy said:


> I'm confused...are you blaming the breed for changing or the lack of proper breeding applications? It illegal to kill off puppies anymore and has been for a long time....so the ability to control the human fear has been diluted....this is both a failure of the breed, which raises overall aggression and response , even towards humans and that's a natural progression of the breed.
> 
> I don't disagree with you on what has caused this, but if the natural evolutionary growth is of a dog more aggressive towards human...then they should not be labeled as pets....working dogs maybe...but controlled under tighter scrutiny and exposure to the public.


I will agree it is a failure to control breeding. I will not claim it as a failure of the breed itself. Domesticated animals are what we make them, and that's been true for thousands of years. There's no "wild" left in them. You can't blame the dog for acting on its natural impulses that are a result of its parentage. It knows no better. People might love their dogs, but we aren't talking about higher minds here.
I would also dispute that aggression toward humans is a "natural" one. The very fact that we were able to domesticate wolves into dogs shows the natural progression of the canine to be less aggressive toward humans. No, human aggression in domesticated dogs is unnatural and a result of bad breeding control.
Unfortunately, without a concerted effort by responsible breeders to fix the issue, we have an imbalance in the number of pups being sold from bad breeders over good ones.
The more we vilify the breed, and enact laws banning their ownership, the more damage we cause to the breed overall. Responsible people don't break the law, but irresponsible people do.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

> If that is your logic, his car, though never having harmed anyone, should share the same fate due to the potential for immense harm that has been shown in wrecks involving other cars.


Faulty logic, @Kauboy. A car is not an animal. It only moves when operated by a human. A dog is not a machine that only operates when operated by a human.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Faulty logic, @Kauboy. A car is not an animal. It only moves when operated by a human. A dog is not a machine that only operates when operated by a human.


That wasn't his reasoning.
He is making a claim of equality based on superficial characteristics.
Other dogs do bad things, son's potential dog is similar dog, thus son's potential dog will do bad things, solution is to kill the dog.
He isn't giving any consideration to the owner of the dog, nor the dog's training, upbringing, or breeding. Just "thing bad, kill thing".

So, my comparison is in no way different in the same logical conclusion.
No consideration should be given to whether a vehicle's driver is competent, how long the driver has been operating a vehicle, nor the vehicle's safety rating or history.
The vehicle holds the potential for bad things, thus should be killed.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> That wasn't his reasoning.
> He is making a claim of equality based on superficial characteristics.
> Other dogs do bad things, son's potential dog is similar dog, thus son's potential dog will do bad things, solution is to kill the dog.
> He isn't giving any consideration to the owner of the dog, nor the dog's training, upbringing, or breeding. Just "thing bad, kill thing".
> ...


Again, the car doesn't move without the owner. A dog, unlike a car, has a mind of his own. This former U.S. Army dog handler (sentry, patrol and narcotics detection), has a little experience with dogs. No matter how much you train with your dog, no matter how much of the boss you are, dogs can surprise the snot out of you. You won't know what crossed his little mind.

Got to go to work and can't type on my phone with cussing like a sailor. Speak more about this, later.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

I will put my two cents worth in. Dogs are dogs and all can be dangerous. Treat a dog well and it will behave well, treat a dog poorly and it will be dangerous. Collies have been known for some time to be one of the more dangerous dogs. I almost got my throat torn out by a lab that had been mistreated that I had never seen before when I was 6, but launched at me on sight. Only my reaction to turn my head to the right saved me and it got my shoulder versus my throat. With that said, I will not hesitate to put down any dog, my own or someone else's if they are a danger and a danger in public.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Again, the car doesn't move without the owner. A dog, unlike a car, has a mind of his own. This former U.S. Army dog handler (sentry, patrol and narcotics detection), has a little experience with dogs. No matter how much you train with your dog, no matter how much of the boss you are, dogs can surprise the snot out of you. You won't know what crossed his little mind.
> 
> Got to go to work and can't type on my phone with cussing like a sailor. Speak more about this, later.


Again, he expressed no concern over the actual dog in question. He said he would kill the dog simply for being the same breed.
No bearing on whether the dog itself would do something harmful.
This removes the piece you keep bringing up, about the dog having a mind of its own. He isn't considering that.
Just "dog breed bad, kill dog".

So, we can't even bring in consideration about a car being operated by a driver. The actions of the driver (or the specific dog in question) make no difference.
Potential for harm exists, remove potential for harm.
That was his reasoning, and what I called out as flawed.
If it makes you feel better, the same EXACT comparison can be made about his son. Forget the car. His son belongs to the human race, and we know the track record there.
So, if the same logic is to be applied, should he kill his son for the potential harm he could do based on evidence of other humans doing harm?

The logic is bad no matter how granular you want to get.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> You said you'd kill your son's potential pit if he let it "get near" your granddaughter. Without any reason to believe that particular dog would do anything, you'd kill it based on proximity due to incidents that other dogs were involved in.
> If that is your logic, his car, though never having harmed anyone, should share the same fate due to the potential for immense harm that has been shown in wrecks involving other cars.
> 
> See how that doesn't make sense?
> ...





Kauboy said:


> That wasn't his reasoning.
> He is making a claim of equality based on superficial characteristics.
> Other dogs do bad things, son's potential dog is similar dog, thus son's potential dog will do bad things, solution is to kill the dog.
> He isn't giving any consideration to the owner of the dog, nor the dog's training, upbringing, or breeding. Just "thing bad, kill thing".
> ...


i don't disagree that the cause is the poor breeding caused by some rockstar status of having a pit bull to tow around to look cool. I however am not going to call these animals anything but unpredictable...The danger the have is the limited capacity to reason when in a rage....like a berserker, there sheer strength, and jaw power, and muscular body make the effective fighter...

bottom line your responsible for what your pets do. i only own pets I can kill in a hand to hand fight.and I keep them very well locked away so they cannot go out without me there.

last analogy pits are like muslims ,generally low IQ...simple creature, but as we know they can latch onto ideas that make them marter themselves over what they are indoctrinated to believe. Sure most muslimes dont openly support that ,so we can't just say all of them are bad....cause the are espousing all muslims are not bad,,,,just the few 24% are distorting islam....while they neither condemn the actins themselves

i'm sure there are goo muslims....and good pit pool....I catch either of them around my grand daughter...I'mma kill em both.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> You said you'd kill your son's potential pit if he let it "get near" your granddaughter. Without any reason to believe that particular dog would do anything, you'd kill it based on proximity due to incidents that other dogs were involved in.
> If that is your logic, his car, though never having harmed anyone, should share the same fate due to the potential for immense harm that has been shown in wrecks involving other cars.
> 
> See how that doesn't make sense?


when I see unattended cars driving the kids off a bridge,,,,or driving then in front of a train...then i pick on GMC and Ford,,,,but that doesn't happen...a driver drives the vehicle into that situation...its not in the car or control to stop, go, or question. These dogs are acting from natural stimui, such as aggressive alpha male estblishment and and the only thing the owner can do is assert himself as the alpha and calm the pack....Most injuries are happening to women....maybe they should start identifying as non binary alphas and see if that helps.

I think you should have to beat yur dog in a cage match, before your allowed to own it.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> Again, he expressed no concern over the actual dog in question. He said he would kill the dog simply for being the same breed.
> No bearing on whether the dog itself would do something harmful.
> This removes the piece you keep bringing up, about the dog having a mind of its own. He isn't considering that.
> Just "dog breed bad, kill dog".
> ...


I'm not telling anyone to kill the breed. I'm sayin...if my son gets one...I'M GOING TO KILL IT...CAUSE I DON'T TAKE CHNCES. If it makes you fee better, I WILL ALSO BEAT THE HELL OUT OF HIS CAR.....SON'S GONNA GET HIS ASS KICKED TO REGardless of what happens to the car.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

In the South, and probably elsewhere in the country, certain lines of dogs are selectively bred.
For example - Black Mouth Curs are used for wild hog hunting. There are well known breeders that breed the dogs that have the most wanted hog hunting traits.
Any off spring that do not exhibit the needed traits do not get sold, or mated.

When I lived on the Georgia side of the line, my neighbor's prized Black Mouth was killed by a hog it was running. My neighbor drove all the way to South Carolina to buy another dog from the same bloodline - paid $3,000 for it too.

Bulldogs are done the same. Those wanting aggressive dogs, buy puppies of aggressive parents. All fine and well, until one of those selectively bred dogs ends up in the hands of an unsuspecting person.

Early training is important, but SO ARE GENES.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I've figured out after owning German Shepherds, a Border Collie and an Australian Cattle Dog, (My FAVORITE!) that I'm a Herding/Working Dog kinda guy.

If I am fortunate to live long enough, I may try out other breeds, but I will always have a Red or Blue Heeler!:tango_face_smile:


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm a Lab guy, but when "rescue" is in your heart, you end up with a wide variety.


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

Shetland Sheepdog person here. Slightly different flavor of crazy from most other herding dogs.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Slippy said:


> I've figured out after owning German Shepherds, a Border Collie and an Australian Cattle Dog, (My FAVORITE!) that I'm a Herding/Working Dog kinda guy.
> 
> If I am fortunate to live long enough, I may try out other breeds, but I will always have a Red or Blue Heeler!:tango_face_smile:
> 
> View attachment 96865


I was in Florida about ten years ago, staying with a friend who had a dog breeding ranch... all working dogs. I was AMAZED at the level of instinct and ability of these dogs to round up sheep and horses! Seemed to know what to do right from the get go as pups.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

StratMaster said:


> I was in Florida about ten years ago, staying with a friend who had a dog breeding ranch... all working dogs. I was AMAZED at the level of instinct and ability of these dogs to round up sheep and horses! Seemed to know what to do right from the get go as pups.


Exactly. The results of selective breeding.

There's a short video on Youtube from Ireland with a sheep rancher introducing one month old Border Collie pups to his sheep.
As said in the video, the one who went right up to the sheep will be kept and trained, the others who seemed afraid of the sheep would be adopted out. They did not show the desired innate trait.

And backyard pitbull breeders can put possibly dangerous dogs out into the general population. Which is why I avoid pitts.


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## SGG (Nov 25, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> i don't disagree that the cause is the poor breeding caused by some rockstar status of having a pit bull to tow around to look cool. I however am not going to call these animals anything but unpredictable...The danger the have is the limited capacity to reason when in a rage....like a berserker, there sheer strength, and jaw power, and muscular body make the effective fighter...
> 
> bottom line your responsible for what your pets do. i only own pets I can kill in a hand to hand fight.and I keep them very well locked away so they cannot go out without me there.
> 
> ...


What the


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Exactly. The results of selective breeding.
> 
> There's a short video on Youtube from Ireland with a sheep rancher introducing one month old Border Collie pups to his sheep.
> As said in the video, the one who went right up to the sheep will be kept and trained, the others who seemed afraid of the sheep would be adopted out. They did not show the desired innate trait.
> ...


Awesome video RPD, thanx!


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## White Shadow (Jun 26, 2017)

We also have a mutant we got from a rescue. I think he's part Mosasaur or something. The vet and the rescue both think Catahoula mix. He's wicked smart, even compared to the smartest of the Shelties I've had over the years.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

One of our sentry dogs was a "bio dog." Those were dogs raised by the military and not procured from civilians. Vatson had never lived among civilians and had been around trained professionals all his life.Still, we noticed something odd. Upon request, we would let line MP's bring their families to the kennels for a tour. While Vatson had no problem with adults, he'd try to tear through the fencing to kill a kid. We couldn't figure it out.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

StratMaster said:


> Awesome video RPD, thanx!


Years ago, RFD-TV network used to show sheep dog trials from Britain on Saturday afternoons.
If you have never seen this, the farmer and his dog (or two) have to herd a flock of sheep through a series of obstacles and into a pen. 
I used to love watching.

These are on Youtube today. Just enter British Sheepdog Trails into the youtube search bar.
If you enjoy watching very intelligent dogs work, you will love this.
For a change of pace, there are also cattle dog trials there.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

The "Border Collie Focus" is amazing! She was never happier than when she was "herding". (Even though it was usually tennis balls) She is buried with a brand new bouncy tennis ball near the back gate at Slippy Lodge...


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> I'm not telling anyone to kill the breed. I'm sayin...if my son gets one...I'M GOING TO KILL IT...CAUSE I DON'T TAKE CHNCES. If it makes you fee better, I WILL ALSO BEAT THE HELL OUT OF HIS CAR.....SON'S GONNA GET HIS ASS KICKED TO REGardless of what happens to the car.


I am curious about just what kind of son you have raised if you believe he would let you do any of the above? Do you subscribe to the same theory of raising kids as you do of owning dogs? If you can't kill them in a hand to hand fight you don't have them? Have you raised a submissive son? I mean no disrespect to either you or your son, but I am curious after reading several of your posts concerning this.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Slippy said:


> The "Border Collie Focus" is amazing! She was never happier than when she was "herding". (Even though it was usually tennis balls) She is buried with a brand new bouncy tennis ball near the back gate at Slippy Lodge...
> 
> View attachment 96871


Border Collies are beautiful dogs. 
And very smart.
We have never owned a purebred, just mixes.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Top 10 most dangerous dog breeds in the world.
> 
> https://www.insidedogsworld.com/top10-most-dangerous-dog-breeds-in-theworld
> 
> ...


How the HELL is a wolf hybrid not #1???!!!???!!!

Cleary the list (apart from wolf hybrid) plays by numbers/popularity as there are several, arguably more, dangerous breeds omitted:

Sharpei, Akita, Dogo Argentino, Presa Canario, Cane Corso, Bull Terrier and Chow Chow.

These are just off the top of my head as I've had the opportunity to work with them personally in my former life as a dog trainer.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Hemi45 said:


> How the HELL is a wolf hybrid not #1???!!!???!!!
> 
> Cleary the list (apart from wolf hybrid) plays by numbers/popularity as there are several, arguably more, dangerous breeds omitted:
> 
> ...


I recently encountered a little girl that had a big rip in her face from a Bassett Hound.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

stevekozak said:


> I recently encountered a little girl that had a big rip in her face from a Bassett Hound.


Yup. If it has teeth it can bite. Simple as that. No breed is exempt from biting/harming but certain ones have more of a propensity and ability to cause tremendous damage.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Ever witnessed a pair of doberman pinschers working? It is a beautiful sight. It is in their nature to work as a team. On the other hand, shepherds naturally work alone.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Hemi45 said:


> Yup. If it has teeth it can bite. Simple as that. No breed is exempt from biting/harming but certain ones have more of a propensity and ability to cause tremendous damage.


Got me thinking of our old Rotty. He had a low pain threshold and would give a chomp to the offender..such as grandkid doing a knee dive into his rib carge while he was sleeping. He would grab em by the hand and chomp down just enough to make them cry..and then he would turn loose. Never did bust any skin. lol.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

stevekozak said:


> I am curious about just what kind of son you have raised if you believe he would let you do any of the above? Do you subscribe to the same theory of raising kids as you do of owning dogs? If you can't kill them in a hand to hand fight you don't have them? Have you raised a submissive son? I mean no disrespect to either you or your son, but I am curious after reading several of your posts concerning this.


I raised son's that Respect their Dad. They know they can make their own decisions...and I will make mine.... They know how I feel, I know how they feel. I have strong sons who can whip damn near any man in a fight...And when I get a little older, they may be able to whip me too....But thats only if I fight fair...and I never do.

My sons 3 of 4 are currently serving in the Military. They respect who I am....and they understand that I love them and my Grand daughter enough to not to let them do something stupid like get a pitbull around a 1.5 year old child. If they do not understand that...then they are dumber than I thought and deserve to pay for that stupidity by having to put their father in Prison for killing their dog, instead of putting their child in the grave because they think that Pits are great with Kids.

Looky here Cat... You can insinuate whatever the hell you want about how weak my kids might be or How I'm wrong or whatever.... I'll tell you what Snookems....You friggin sit on your side of the porch and do you...I'mma sit on mine and do me....And whenever you wanna throw down on something Factual or Historical I'm here....But lets not go into how You feel...and I feel like I'mma gonna change you or your gonna change me..... I'd have to be really weak to be suaded by a poor attempt to bait me into an arguement by speaking ill of my kids or how I raised them...


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

stevekozak said:


> I recently encountered a little girl that had a big rip in her face from a Bassett Hound.


hunhh?....Imagine how bad it'd a been if that had been a pitbull instead.... WOw...she was lucky.

How many Deaths have been attributed to the Basset Hound this year?


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## txmarine6531 (Nov 18, 2015)

White Shadow said:


> Shetland Sheepdog person here. Slightly different flavor of crazy from most other herding dogs.


First dog my family had. He was the most gentle dog I've ever seen. Had epilepsy and died at 8 years old. Buddy was the best boy.



A Watchman said:


> There is a low key sub culture in East Texas that fights both cocks and dogs. Don't tell Michael Vick about it though.


I know a few that raise fighting cocks there. One guy had his right by the road for the world to see, most have them hidden on the property. Walking to them feels like you're being taken to a coke processing station in Columbia or something.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

To pull all of this back into the original context...

I heard an update on this woman and her dogs this morning on the radio while driving into work.
The real story goes, these dogs were far too aggressive even for the staff of the facility that was keeping them. They could not manage the dogs on their own, and said they were unable to take them for their daily walks. They even reported that the animals had broken out of a chain link cage while there. The owner was free to come and walk them, and had been doing so regularly for two weeks prior to the attack.

So there it is. The dog(s) bit someone and ended up in this facility awaiting whatever. They were too aggressive for trained staff to handle. They were aggressive enough to break out of their cage at least once. They had already spent two weeks in unfamiliar territory while receiving minimal exercise. (anyone who has working dogs knows the problem there) The woman had been visiting the dogs regularly, and walking them when she did. There is still no explanation of the attack, or what triggered it. I would expect a mention of video if there was any surveillance, but I've not heard anything on that yet.

So, two high energy and aggressive dogs were taken out of their domain, placed with other dogs they were likely never socialized properly to deal with, and separated from their owner for a majority of that time.

Let the speculation fly!
As for my own, I think it's obvious the dogs were raised with inadequate socialization or leadership. Nothing is provided about their parentage or history, so I can't guess there, but I'm sure some will feel more than comfortable doing so.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I agree. Those conditions make any animal somewhat unpredictable...But do not forget they where placed there because they bit someone before that happened. My entire point behind my position is that No one should own an animal they cannot control...and no one should allow the animal they control to be in positions where they lose their control. Its simple...You are responsible for what your pets do...SO you are the judge of what pets you can manage.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

There were indeed placed there for biting... and it being reported. We don't know the extent of the bite, or the situation that lead up to it.

Happy little statistic for everyone, 100% of dogs bite.
Do we lock up or euthanize all dogs when they inevitably bite, regardless of the circumstances?

Personally, I don't want to be left with just cats...
:vs_no_no_no:


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Kauboy said:


> ...
> 
> Personally, I don't want to be left with just cats...
> :vs_no_no_no:


I enjoy me some cat every now and again!:vs_smile:


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Old SF Guy said:


> I raised son's that Respect their Dad. They know they can make their own decisions...and I will make mine.... They know how I feel, I know how they feel. I have strong sons who can whip damn near any man in a fight...And when I get a little older, they may be able to whip me too....But thats only if I fight fair...and I never do.
> 
> My sons 3 of 4 are currently serving in the Military. They respect who I am....and they understand that I love them and my Grand daughter enough to not to let them do something stupid like get a pitbull around a 1.5 year old child. If they do not understand that...then they are dumber than I thought and deserve to pay for that stupidity by having to put their father in Prison for killing their dog, instead of putting their child in the grave because they think that Pits are great with Kids.
> 
> Looky here Cat... You can insinuate whatever the hell you want about how weak my kids might be or How I'm wrong or whatever.... I'll tell you what Snookems....You friggin sit on your side of the porch and do you...I'mma sit on mine and do me....And whenever you wanna throw down on something Factual or Historical I'm here....But lets not go into how You feel...and I feel like I'mma gonna change you or your gonna change me..... I'd have to be really weak to be suaded by a poor attempt to bait me into an arguement by speaking ill of my kids or how I raised them...


Clearly you are a highly rational man with incredible insight into other people. Your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills are a bit lacking, but no one is perfect. I'll keep my side of the porch clean for the kitty.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> There were indeed placed there for biting... and it being reported. We don't know the extent of the bite, or the situation that lead up to it.
> 
> Happy little statistic for everyone, 100% of dogs bite.
> Do we lock up or euthanize all dogs when they inevitably bite, regardless of the circumstances?
> ...


Yes. Every dog has the ability to bite. Some breeds are more likely to bite. Can you imagine if chihuahuas weighed 40 pounds?

There are more german shepherd bites reported than there are pit bulls, but there are a lot more sheps owners.

Surely, you are not suggesting breeds do not have their own characteristics.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Yes. Every dog has the ability to bite. Some breeds are more likely to bite. Can you imagine if chihuahuas weighed 40 pounds?
> 
> There are more german shepherd bites reported than there are pit bulls, but there are a lot more sheps owners.
> 
> Surely, you are not suggesting breeds do not have their own characteristics.


I brought it up because that was SF's springboard into why the whole thing happened. A bite.
How many times have we been bitten by a dog, any dog, and we don't report it because we know it was something stupid we did to cause it?
When it comes to pits, it doesn't seem to matter the reason. One bite for ANY reason, and we condemn the dog to death.

Had the story been different, such as "two pits maul little girl, then kill owner while at holding facility", then I'd have a much different perspective on it.
But to pretend the initial bite, without any context, immediately means the dogs are bad, and thus should be locked away and eventually killed, that's a bridge too far for me to cross.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> I brought it up because that was SF's springboard into why the whole thing happened. A bite.
> How many times have we been bitten by a dog, any dog, and we don't report it because we know it was something stupid we did to cause it?
> When it comes to pits, it doesn't seem to matter the reason. One bite for ANY reason, and we condemn the dog to death.
> 
> ...


Why is it that this particular breed has a lousy reputation? Do you think it is an unfair reputation?


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Denton said:


> Why is it that this particular breed has a lousy reputation? Do you think it is an unfair reputation?


Ummm, lets see...

Starts with an N...and ends with an S... Certain types of these cause the poor reputation of pitbulls.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Why is it that this particular breed has a lousy reputation? Do you think it is an unfair reputation?


The bad rep comes from the misinformation about the breed's past. On the one hand, the layman would assume that a "fighting" dog is always going to be dangerous. On the other, those with ill-intent seek to perpetuate this bad reputation by using the breed as a status symbol, encouraging and rewarding aggressive behavior, creating an animal that feels that behavior is what is expected, and seeks to oblige.

Insofar as that is "fair", I think it's terribly unfair. It has tarnished a once great breed with toxic misinformation and bad breeding/ownership.
I will conceded, as stated, that I'm not sure the path can be reversed. Without a huge correction to the breed, which would involve regulations I'm deeply opposed to, fixing the problems isn't likely.
So, I must default to my normal foundation for judgement. Did the animal do something dangerous? If so, what were the circumstances? If not, leave it alone.
I try to apply this in an unbiased fashion to everything and everyone. Thinking an entire breed is bad just because there are very bad outliers within the breed is dangerous, and can lead to a cycle of thought that could extend far beyond dogs.

A person is free to think whatever they wish about a dog. I might disagree, and care to discuss it with them, but in the end it matters little.
However, if the *reasoning* isn't sound, that can lead to a much bigger problem that could eventually affect me directly, and then I'll have a very big problem with it.
Not to divert from the thread too much, but let's look at the oncoming storm of AI.
The theory goes, when AI evolves into a super-intelligence, it will start making decisions based on its surroundings, potential threats, resources it needs, and so on. Do we want this super-intelligence to look at our "breed" and its history, see all of the horrendous outliers that clearly identify a flaw within us, and decide we are not worth the risk of keeping around? It's the same with us and dogs. We are "super" by comparison, and they are simple beasts with their own will.
With a small bit of hope that reasoning wins out, I wish to treat all dogs fairly, and judge them individually, just as our eventual AI overlords should do with us.

Forgive the tangent, was the best "bigger picture" description I could think of to explain my position.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> The bad rep comes from the misinformation about the breed's past. On the one hand, the layman would assume that a "fighting" dog is always going to be dangerous. On the other, those with ill-intent seek to perpetuate this bad reputation by using the breed as a status symbol, encouraging and rewarding aggressive behavior, creating an animal that feels that behavior is what is expected, and seeks to oblige.
> 
> Insofar as that is "fair", I think it's terribly unfair. It has tarnished a once great breed with toxic misinformation and bad breeding/ownership.
> I will conceded, as stated, that I'm not sure the path can be reversed. Without a huge correction to the breed, which would involve regulations I'm deeply opposed to, fixing the problems isn't likely.
> ...


I see your position and respect it. Here is my position.

Breeds have their particular characteristics, so I will judge a breed as a whole and not treat the individual dog as I would a human.

You are correct in stating that breeds have their characteristics due to breeding. This is a good thing in many instances. Other times it is not. Take the German Shepherd, for instance. Due to breeding that slopes the back down, they are prone to hip dysplasia. Pits have been bred to be aggressive which would be good if we were talking about sentry dogs, but it isn't a good thing when we are talking about dogs in neighborhoods. Aggressive dogs with high prey/kill instincts will do what their instincts tell them to do. A running child is all it takes to trigger such a dog. After the attack, the dog is blamed for doing what such a dog does. Is the dog "bad?" No. He is just in an improper environment for his breed.
@Slippy, you have it backward. Those people prefer that breed because of its characteristics.


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## watcher (Aug 24, 2013)

I see dogs and cats (all kinds) as a meal on paws...My neighbors know this and have been warned..If TSHTF little miss meow meow and arf arf are on my menu...


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Our resident Ruskie Spy named Toronto Girl...who survied the last collapse of the USSR said they called cats roof rabbits in her part of da hood and her mama made soap out of dog fat. Best barter items are Vodka..cigarettes and toilet paper.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> I see your position and respect it. Here is my position.
> 
> Breeds have their particular characteristics, so I will judge a breed as a whole and not treat the individual dog as I would a human.


So long as one can remain cognizant of the difference, which I believe you can, then I'm back to the "think what you wish" position.
It's just unsettling when I have this discussion numerous times, and people are ready to slaughter the whole breed with no regard. I'm not sure what folks like that would do if the stakes were even higher.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2015)

I had a pit bull, Miss Cookie. I got her from rescue when she was 3 years of age. She had more personality than any dog I've ever owned. When she wanted to go outside, she'd jump right through the screen window on the kitchen door. Then she'd cuddle up just like a lap dog...

I don't know who did what to her, but she hated black men. The mail man, the trash collectors...It broke my heart but I had to return her to the rescue 4 months later.I tried, but. Miss Cookie was a law suit waiting to happen. It was only a matter of time before somebody got seriously hurt.


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## stevekozak (Oct 4, 2015)

Annie said:


> I had a pit bull, Miss Cookie. I got her from rescue when she was 3 years of age. She had more personality than any dog I've ever owned. When she wanted to go outside, she'd jump right through the screen window on the kitchen door. Then she'd cuddle up just like a lap dog...
> 
> I don't know who did what to her, but she hated black men. The mail man, the trash collectors...It broke my heart but I had to return her to the rescue 4 months later.I tried, but. Miss Cookie was a law suit waiting to happen. It was only a matter of time before somebody got seriously hurt.


Slippy might woulda have adopted her! I have known some really nice pits as well as any other breeds.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Annie said:


> I had a pit bull, Miss Cookie. I got her from rescue when she was 3 years of age. She had more personality than any dog I've ever owned. When she wanted to go outside, she'd jump right through the screen window on the kitchen door. Then she'd cuddle up just like a lap dog...
> 
> I don't know who did what to her, but she hated black men. The mail man, the trash collectors...It broke my heart but I had to return her to the rescue 4 months later.I tried, but. Miss Cookie was a law suit waiting to happen. It was only a matter of time before somebody got seriously hurt.


Yup!
We completely fenced our property to keep unauthorized animals out, and our dogs in. 
However, there are many people who simply let their dogs run loose around here. They get run over, they get shot.
Would our dogs hurt anyone out on the street? I do not know. That is why they are fenced in.

My wife did rescue a young pup from the side of the road years ago. Turns out he was some kind of specialized hunting breed, I forget which kind. Even after being neutered, when he got into his "zone" he was uncontrollable.
The day came that one of our chickens hopped over their fence. The dog totally destroyed it. And on that same day, the couple next door had family over including little kids. It didn't take a genius to see what could happen if he got over the fence.
He is buried out back, in our woods.


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