# Starting the ball rolling on solar project



## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

I have a ex-coworker who just got back from Tibett, he helped fund raise and install a solar set up for some munks. How kool is that?
I spoke with him on "needing a teacher" and told him I had a million questions. He and I will have a adult beverage soon, and I hope to even accompany him, to look at some solar setups that are in place.
I want to be "off the grid" when i do decide to retire, so I want a "take off" ability setup, that can be moved.
You guys are "way outa my league", I see Budget and Montana and some of yall talking, and its like greek to me.


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## budgetprepp-n (Apr 7, 2013)

I really don't don't know that much about it. I just sort of stuck my set up together and it works


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

You are an inspiration, I need to start "evaluating" things, so I could figure out what can be a lifetime use. Im guessing, with prooper maintenance, the inverters and breakers and "cut offs" would be ok for life, so only the battery banks?
Like I said, the amp draw, usage, conversion, I cant wrap my head around it, until I can get my hands on it.
My first step will be figuring what I need appliance wise, and electric use wise, I am assuming?
I know, for a fact, I want air conditioning, refridgeration, a chest freezer or two, and some ceiling fans. I think I would also want the lighting hooked up. And heat.
I also think, that to be "off grid" completely, I will need a good genny for the winter, so that would have to tie in, 
Please, if there's anything I missed, jump in. 
I am good at "pulling wire" and burying conduit, I have set powerpoles, and the like, but my knowledge of electrical is very primative.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

deebo, start small...

learn ohms law

and understand that power is like money, you can make it, you can store it, you can spend it, what you want is that balance where you can't spend more than you can hope to make

and also keep it simple, no need to make it complex... no need to dig super deep, just enough to get you by, a lot in the early stages go really complex really fast and loose all concept... 

you will do fine mate, take pages out of budgets book, he has kept it simple, kept everything basic, that anyone if he runs into a problem can fix it


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## LDSreliance (Sep 2, 2014)

pheniox17 said:


> deebo, start small...
> 
> learn ohms law
> 
> ...


Agree 100%. If I had it to do all over again, I would buy a cheap 10w panel with a cheap pwm charge controller and a small 8ah or so sealed battery and play around with it for a few weeks. I would test different loads with it and become very familiar with how to use a multimeter to measure current, voltage, and resistance. I would drain the battery and observe how it performs in various stages. I would learn how much (or little) power the panel makes in various lighting scenarios and as the sun crosses the sky.

A setup like I describe would cost less than $70 with shipping and will give you the knowledge you need to make a more informed decision on a real setup.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

I may be wrong but the big thing I see as a problem is battery life. They seem pricey for how long they will hold a charge before requiring replacement.


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## pheniox17 (Dec 12, 2013)

Camel923 said:


> I may be wrong but the big thing I see as a problem is battery life. They seem pricey for how long they will hold a charge before requiring replacement.


lots of factors here, but most batteries will last about the same as your solar panel (a good quality system, 10 years)

a good question tho as some systems will only last 2 years ..


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## LDSreliance (Sep 2, 2014)

Camel923 said:


> I may be wrong but the big thing I see as a problem is battery life. They seem pricey for how long they will hold a charge before requiring replacement.


Deep cycle batteries are rated in the number of cycles they will perform before needing to be replaced (estimated). You can use this figure to estimate how long they will last. Plus, you don't need to spend a fortune on purpose-build, renewable energy batteries. There are plenty of deep cycle batteries out there for other purposes that will work just fine. For example, I use 6v golf cart batteries because they are cheap, deep cycle, and can be purchased locally without needing to pay for expensive shipping. I would highly recommend NOT using car or marine batteries because they are not good at all for a long life in a solar/wind/hydro application.


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## PalmettoTree (Jun 8, 2013)

Deebo said:


> I have a ex-coworker who just got back from Tibett, he helped fund raise and install a solar set up for some munks. How kool is that?
> I spoke with him on "needing a teacher" and told him I had a million questions. He and I will have a adult beverage soon, and I hope to even accompany him, to look at some solar setups that are in place.
> I want to be "off the grid" when i do decide to retire, so I want a "take off" ability setup, that can be moved.
> You guys are "way outa my league", I see Budget and Montana and some of yall talking, and its like greek to me.


I looked into solar in 2010. Total cost about $36,000. The payback was equal to the replacement time of major components. I upgraded to conventional high efficient water, heat and aid conditioning systems. The actual payback I experienced was just over one year.

I believe a wind system is the answer for some areas of the country. If you live in the UK or spent time there in the last 10 years you know wind works bar better and more efficiently than solar.


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## DionRi (Sep 4, 2014)

Deebo said:


> I have a ex-coworker who just got back from Tibett, he helped fund raise and install a solar set up for some munks. How kool is that?
> I spoke with him on "needing a teacher" and told him I had a million questions. He and I will have a adult beverage soon, and I hope to even accompany him, to look at some solar panels that are in place.
> I want to be "off the grid" when i do decide to retire, so I want a "take off" ability setup, that can be moved.
> You guys are "way outa my league", I see Budget and Montana and some of yall talking, and its like greek to me.


Solar setups are surely very effective..My friend has been using it and it has generated nice outcomes..


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## LDSreliance (Sep 2, 2014)

PalmettoTree said:


> I looked into solar in 2010. Total cost about $36,000. The payback was equal to the replacement time of major components. I upgraded to conventional high efficient water, heat and aid conditioning systems. The actual payback I experienced was just over one year.
> 
> I believe a wind system is the answer for some areas of the country. If you live in the UK or spent time there in the last 10 years you know wind works bar better and more efficiently than solar.


This is a fantastic answer. If you want to go solar, the FIRST thing you need to do is drop your electrical consumption drastically. We can't expect to run power hungry appliances, inefficient lights, and hvac systems in ignorant bliss. The cost would be far too great if translated to a solar panel system (or wind or hydro or anything else).

For example, to truly go off grid you will need to switch as many systems in your house to propane or natural gas as possible. Get a propane refrigerator, natural gas hot water, natural gas range, natural gas dryer, and natural gas furnace (or better yet a wood stove for both cooking and heating). Make sure that all of the rest of your major appliances are energy star rated and use the least amount of energy possible. Get rid of any tube televisions and replace all of your light bulbs with LED light bulbs, including outdoor lighting. And the last but certainly not least is find an alternative to your energy sucking central air conditioning. That is another topic unto itself but is critical to your long term success.

Then and only then will you be ready to start sizing and pricing a new solar panel system that will be a good investment because you have cut your electricity usage in half.


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## Fl grandma (Dec 2, 2016)

I guess I'm not the only one that doesn't know greek language...comforting, you are just where I am, but hopefully we are surrounded by beautiful people that will walk us through, that what it's all about...helping each other out. good luck, I've already posted my concerns.


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## Michael_Js (Dec 4, 2013)

Been also looking at solar...slowly converting over all the appliances (minus the fridge) to propane...very costly though. Also looking at Tesla's Power Walls for battery storage...I have several small solar panels and lights 

we used them when power goes out, along with a large, very loud, generator...1 step at a time...

Peace,
Michael J.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Folks, Please realize that the Tesla Powerwall is an extremely high voltage battery bank and will not integrate with most inverters or charge controllers. While Tesla is very hard to pin down on hard specifications it looks like the Powerwall runs somewhere around 350v on the output side and may need over 400v to charge. It really depends on how the BMS (battery monitoring system) is wired, another thing Tesla is very secretive about. But with the Powerwall 2 I understand the battery comes with a built in inverter so you don't need to find an inverter that can handle 350v DC. Instead you can simply throw your current inverter in the trash and use their inverter. Personally I like my Conext XW 6848.

I suspect that Tesla is constantly changing specs on the Powerwall so they aren't fully standardized yet. 

Lithium battery banks are becoming more common but considering how bad some lithium chemistries are about burning I'd be very careful and only select one with a long track record of not burning houses down. I then would mount it in a little shed outside "just in case". Hopefully some day I can get a lithium battery bank but I don't think they're ready for the masses yet.


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

LDSreliance said:


> This is a fantastic answer. If you want to go solar, the FIRST thing you need to do is drop your electrical consumption drastically. We can't expect to run power hungry appliances, inefficient lights, and hvac systems in ignorant bliss. The cost would be far too great if translated to a solar panel system (or wind or hydro or anything else).
> 
> For example, to truly go off grid you will need to switch as many systems in your house to propane or natural gas as possible. Get a propane refrigerator, natural gas hot water, natural gas range, natural gas dryer, and natural gas furnace (or better yet a wood stove for both cooking and heating). Make sure that all of the rest of your major appliances are energy star rated and use the least amount of energy possible. Get rid of any tube televisions and replace all of your light bulbs with LED light bulbs, including outdoor lighting. And the last but certainly not least is find an alternative to your energy sucking central air conditioning. That is another topic unto itself but is critical to your long term success.
> 
> Then and only then will you be ready to start sizing and pricing a new solar panel system that will be a good investment because you have cut your electricity usage in half.


Translation solar power absolutely sucks LOL. Sorry, I agree with your post and that ran through my head the entire time I read it. In a nutshell you're saying that the problem with solar is that it can't handle what every other power source can.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> Translation solar power absolutely sucks LOL. Sorry, I agree with your post and that ran through my head the entire time I read it. In a nutshell you're saying that the problem with solar is that it can't handle what every other power source can.


A well designed solar system combined with getting serious about reducing your energy consumption is basically paying your power bill in advance. But once paid for there is no power bill for many years. My payback period is about 10.3 years and most of the equipment has at least a 10 year warranty except the batteries. To make the batteries last 7-11 years you do have to check them and adjust your charge controller weekly (5 minutes) and do battery maintance about once a month which takes about 90 minutes.

Bottom line is for a whole house system you really need to look at solar as a hobby since you will need to deal with it regularly and slightly adjust your lifestyle to match solar production. An example would be to delay running the clothes washer (with well pump) if you're in for 3 days of rain. Most homes with solar have a generator to run occasionally during a long period of poor solar.

For us solar doesn't suck as you so roughly put it. When the neighbors loose power for 3 days (at least once a year here) we take hot showers and enjoy watching TV eating microwave popcorn. Even my AC and some of my heat is solar powered.


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

John Galt said:


> A well designed solar system combined with getting serious about reducing your energy consumption is basically paying your power bill in advance. But once paid for there is no power bill for many years. My payback period is about 10.3 years and most of the equipment has at least a 10 year warranty except the batteries. To make the batteries last 7-11 years you do have to check them and adjust your charge controller weekly (5 minutes) and do battery maintance about once a month which takes about 90 minutes.
> 
> Bottom line is for a whole house system you really need to look at solar as a hobby since you will need to deal with it regularly and slightly adjust your lifestyle to match solar production. An example would be to delay running the clothes washer (with well pump) if you're in for 3 days of rain. Most homes with solar have a generator to run occasionally during a long period of poor solar.
> 
> For us solar doesn't suck as you so roughly put it. When the neighbors loose power for 3 days (at least once a year here) we take hot showers and enjoy watching TV eating microwave popcorn. Even my AC and some of my heat is solar powered.


I agree that solar power (during your example of a 3 day power outage) would be awesome as you take your hot showers and watch TV and use your microwave...as your neighbors sit in the dark. I just think it is the worst option of all the back up generator options, in your example let's suppose 1 neighbor has a diesel generator, and one has a nat gas generator. Most of your post talks about adjustments & sacrifices that must be made because your choice was solar power, this talk about sacrifice & adjustments is totally foreign to your neighbor with the diesel generator and the nat gas generator. That is what I was referencing when I said that "Solar Sucks!" Yes I stand by that statement, 'As long as the status quo rolls along' solar sucks!

Having said that, if the status quo gets disrupted drastically, aka SHTF, all the sudden solar becomes the best system there is!! So I admit that it depends, that it's a dice roll...no SHTF, solar sucks...SHTF, solar is THE BEST! If no SHTF i just can't justify the cost of batteries.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

I agree that if your primary goal is electric backup for a few days or even a one time 2 week power outage a generator is your best choice and would recommend a propane generator because with a large propane tank you can also run a line to the grill, clothes dryer, water heater, and stove when needed. Plus as mentioned earlier propane never goes bad. Gas and Diesel will go bad although properly stored with additives diesel can last many years.

A thought on wiring costs. Obviously you can always just run a few extension cords for the required day or two so very low cost. 
And then you've got the people who when the power is down disconnect their home from the grid using the home's main breaker and then run a cord from the generator to a 220v outlet like the clothes dryer uses. This method is very illegal because if done improperly you can either kill a power company worker outside your house or burn the house down by running too much power in reverse through the home's breaker panel. Still many people do this with good results because it's much cheaper than adding s subpanel to your home. 

Properly hard wiring a generator (or solar) to the home is expensive usually requiring a sub-panel and can easily cost over a thousand dollars. Just something to keep in mind. @ I'd last a day


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> ...Having said that, if the status quo gets disrupted drastically, aka SHTF, all the sudden solar becomes the best system there is!! So I admit that it depends, that it's a dice roll...no SHTF, solar sucks...SHTF, solar is THE BEST! If no SHTF i just can't justify the cost of batteries.


I agree. And that's what I'm aiming for, at present. If the grid goes down, a small solar-battery setup will be very useful for keeping shortwave radio and flashlight batteries charged, charging tablets and the like for access to your library, maybe even an electric blanket or to brew some coffee.

I've already set up my battery bank, inverter, and charger (I'm still researching the panels) and the one thing I've learned is that good 12 volt equipment is expensive! I live in one of the poorest areas of the country for solar insolation, so I've given up on the dream of large scale solar for refrigeration, appliances, and lighting (other methods are simpler and cheaper).

Solar power is interesting, I'm enjoying it as a hobby, but I can't expect any payback on a conventional system.


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## Redneck (Oct 6, 2016)

I'd_last_a_day said:


> I just think it is the worst option of all the back up generator options, in your example let's suppose 1 neighbor has a diesel generator, and one has a nat gas generator. Most of your post talks about adjustments & sacrifices that must be made because your choice was solar power, this talk about sacrifice & adjustments is totally foreign to your neighbor with the diesel generator and the nat gas generator.


Not foreign to this owner of a natural gas generator. These things have to be maintained ( just this am wrote a $250 check to my electrician to service the unit) and with all the moving parts & other electronics... things break. The switch panel on my unit went out last year & that set me back around $1000 for a new one. I've had outages where the unit wouldn't start. I've had to run to the store during a storm to get a new battery. Don't get me wrong, I love having the unit but it is not some trouble free panacea for electrical outages. Actually my plan is to one day feed that emergency panel with a solar unit... not the natural gas generator.
@sideKahr, I use the Humless solar generators for what you discuss. Yep, they ain't cheap but I have no skills or desire in building such a unit.


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

******* said:


> I've had outages where the unit wouldn't start. I've had to run to the store during a storm to get a new battery.


Wow I would be so mad, power would go out and I'd breathe a sigh of relief that I own a generator...it wouldn't work and I'd FREAK lol. You ain't lying, I talked a little trash about solar but the diesels I'm looking at are not a small price tag by any means. If I go all out I want a Multiquip Whisperwatt, the Aurora is if I decide to go with a better budget option. I guess one thing that bothers me about solar is it's such a piece it all together thing, or you're buying a complete system from what seems to be a sea of fly by night companies, as opposed to a Multiquip, or a Honda, or Generac etc, world known products that have been consistently made forever. But that's just IMO what do I know, I'll tell you one thing if I was super wealthy I'd be all over solar!


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## I'd_last_a_day (May 12, 2015)

Double post


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## Orphwitz (Sep 4, 2017)

System component life is of utmost importance to me, as I do not wish to remain dependent on our modern "just-in-time" logistics system. I have seen purpose-built lead-acid batteries which promise a 20-year lifetime when properly stored. My preference, however, is for a hydrogen battery system. 
Ultimately; I'd like a system which uses excess renewable power to produce free hydrogen using a process known as "electrolysis," a process which separates the hydrogen atoms from pure water. Propane tanks are perfectly safe to store hydrogen, essentially serving as "batteries." A natural gas generator can be easily converted to run hydrogen, extracting "battery" power by night. 
These systems have yet to realize their maximum efficiency, as the electrolysis machine as well as the generator produce waste heat in the process of their operations.
Somewhat cost-prohibitive, but worth it to me if it substantially reduces my dependence on chemical batteries.


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## jim-henscheli (May 4, 2015)

Like @sideKahr said, 12v is not cheap. But it's worth it in many ways, we have only 3 devices that are 110v or that can't be charged with a 12v system; fan for sanding, sander and the woman has a hair straightener.. everything else is 12v, lights, little fans, propane system(soon to be power free) and fridge. 
Granted, ours is a more....spartan existence than most. Point is, like electric cars, the technology is good, great even, but some lifestyle changes are in order.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Check out "MY SOLAR PROJECT" that I posted here in march this year. It gives details of my solar learning experiences and gives some idea of what you can expect to get from a 'do it yourself' project.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> Check out "MY SOLAR PROJECT" that I posted here in march this year. It gives details of my solar learning experiences and gives some idea of what you can expect to get from a 'do it yourself' project.


I just re-read your post Chiefster23. I really didn't appreciate the work you had done on first reading, but I've learned a lot since then, and I must say I'm impressed. I hope the system worked well this summer.

One thing I noticed in your post was that you planned on adding a second grounding rod. I don't completely understand why, but electricians recommend that everything be grounded to a single rod. Something about earth looping?

-edit-

Okay, here it is. I love wikipedia:

"In an electrical system, a ground loop or earth loop is an equipment and wiring configuration in which there are multiple paths for electricity to flow to ground. The multiple paths form a loop which can pick up stray current through electromagnetic induction which results in unwanted current in a conductor connecting two points that are supposed to be at the same electric potential, often, but are actually at different potentials."


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

The system worked very well all summer. I'm happy with it.
The second grounding rod..... I really had no logical reason for installing it. I figured if one is good, two is better.
I live in an older home that had the electrical breaker panel grounded to the water line. I had to install a new meter box and the inspector required the installation of 2 ground rods. I also ran a 60 amp circuit to an out building 200 feet away from the house. I installed two ground rods at that sub panel. So my house really has 4 ground rods in addition to the water pipe. More is better, eh? So I installed a surge supressor/lightening arrestor at the charge controller and two ground rods on the panel frame. Not sure if it matters but to be clear, the grounds at the solar panel are on the frame..... not the electric circuit. The solar electronics are grounded inside the house into the water pipe/ground rods that serve the house wiring circuits. Hope this makes sense.


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## sideKahr (Oct 15, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> ...I live in an older home that had the electrical breaker panel grounded to the water line...I installed a surge supressor/lightening arrestor at the charge controller and two ground rods on the panel frame. Not sure if it matters but to be clear, the grounds at the solar panel are on the frame..... not the electric circuit. The solar electronics are grounded inside the house into the water pipe/ground rods that serve the house wiring circuits. Hope this makes sense.


Yeah, I get it. I think the groundlooping is only a problem for sensitive electronics like audio amplifiers that convert spurious voltages into sound and the like. I'm guessing lightning rod grounding is different and ground looping isn't a problem there; you just want the shortest path and no sharp bends.

Use care grounding to water pipes. It used to work well, but today's water meters have plastic parts that interrupt continuity. My meter has a jumper over it from pipe to pipe.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Glad to hear your system is working well for you. I reread your previous thread and I'm not sure what controller and battery type you're using but if you controller is adjustable I'd suggest measuring the SOC (state of charge) at the end of the Absorb cycle. It is very hard to get the batteries over 97% charge but you do want to make sure they are getting over 95% (1.267 SG) most sunny days. Sometimes that requires a longer absorb or bumping the absorb voltage up .2v. Different battery makers like different charging voltages.

Reason I suggest this is that when 1st installed I trusted my controller and SOC meter and thought the batteries were being fully charged each day. Several months later I got a SG (specific gravity) meter and discovered the batteries were being chronically undercharged. At the end of absorb my batteries were only about 85% charged most days. @Chiefster23


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