# A conversation on Cops



## Rob Roy (Nov 6, 2013)

for the very few people around here that have 6 minutes to spare on a video, how do you feel about what Joe Rogan has to say about police officers today?

Please ignore the liberal propagandist host and just stick with the guest.






Do you think this sounds like a more liberal, or libertarian view point?

I am not out to make a point, just to hear other's thoughts


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

I stopped the video because of the language, but I think I got his point.

My thoughts. These protests that are blocking traffic and restricting the free travel of fellow citizens should be treated as something other than peaceable assemblies. The same with riots and damage to public or private property.


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## Salt-N-Pepper (Aug 18, 2014)

He makes a lot of sense.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

Joe makes some good points, but I think he's off on a few as well. 

Independent of Joe's comments, I believe its time to re-think the role that police have in our society. I've come to question the wisdom of having large, full-time, professional police forces. I believe this is in direct conflict with the interests of a free society. Just as thinking, freedom loving individuals are mistrustful of standing armies, I believe we should be equally mistrustful of large professional police forces (especially large, federally funded and militarized police forces like we have today). I think the growing problem of police brutality is due to a) to the federal/DHS "no hesitation" training that many agencies are adopting, and b) the disconnect (and often resentment) that police officers feel towards the public at large. 

If I were in charge, I would fundamentally change the way that America is policed. I would end the existence of large, combined municipality police forces, and dramatically decrease the number of full-time, career officers within each smaller jurisdiction. I would create police forces that were OF the people, FOR the people, and BY the people by creating a system that relied on conscripts that were selected via local popular vote, from a pool of eligible local (this is very important) individuals to fill the ranks. These people would serve as law enforcement officers for short (no longer than 4 years) periods of time while they received training in other professions and occupations. These officers would be your brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles...integral members of the local community...not detached, professional soldiers like our police are today. 

I would also keep federal funding and training completely out of local law enforcement, and I would keep arms, etc. to a bare minimum (a service pistol and a carbine...no grenade launchers, heavy machine guns, or MRAP armored vehicles). If an emergency arose which required more firepower and manpower than to the local police force had at its disposal, then the local leadership would have the authority to activate the local citizen militia.

I would have very, very few full-time, professional police officers. I would allow state and county law enforcement to employ full-time detectives and crime scene investigators, but they would have very little authority (beyond the investigations of serious crimes) within the local jurisdictions.

And that's rather more than I intended to say about that.


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## RoyLanchester (Dec 10, 2014)

Pay them more, train them harder and hire better candidates.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Listened long enough to see they are both idiots.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

RoyLanchester said:


> Pay them more, train them harder and hire better candidates.


You can't pay cops enough to attract truly quality candidates. The brightest minds simply aren't attracted to law enforcement as a career. They're attracted to the sciences, the arts, engineering, and the medical fields. If you were to do as I suggest...making police service a stepping stone to higher professions...you could and would attract much higher quality candidates.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Charles Martel said:


> You can't pay cops enough to attract truly quality candidates. The brightest minds simply aren't attracted to law enforcement as a career. They're attracted to the sciences, the arts, engineering, and the medical fields. If you were to do as I suggest...making police service a stepping stone to higher professions...you could and would attract much higher quality candidates.


Whatever your smoking I have an old Viet Nam Vet pal who will take two bags sight unseen.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Charles - South Korea has a system similar to what you describe. Serving you mandatory 4 years can be as a police officer or i believe fire fighter or emt if you're selected. just like their military only a very few continue ( in any branch) longer than their four years. one difference they are relocated to a station not from where they come from so croneyism shouldn't take ahold.

Do I agree with it? countries have markedly different histories so the jury is still out for me


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I don't agree with everything the guy said but he sounds pretty reasonable and it sounds like I could have a discussion with him.

What doesn't come across well is how you get to the point of cops firing teargas and pointing guns at protestors. I'd be interested in hearing him expound on that before he digresses into how hard it is o get quality police.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> Whatever your smoking I have an old Viet Nam Vet pal who will take two bags sight unseen.


http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

Yeah...cops are the brightest of lights.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Charles - South Korea has a system similar to what you describe. Serving you mandatory 4 years can be as a police officer or i believe fire fighter or emt if you're selected. just like their military only a very few continue ( in any branch) longer than their four years. one difference they are relocated to a station not from where they come from so croneyism shouldn't take ahold.
> 
> Do I agree with it? countries have markedly different histories so the jury is still out for me


Interesting. Ill have to research their system.

I don't think I'd make police service (or any type of service) mandatory. I'd offer incentives for service (scholarships, subsidized tuition, housing, etc.), by qualified (exceptional) individuals, but, I don't think I'd ever make service compulsory.


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## jimb1972 (Nov 12, 2012)

I like the idea of it being temporary service, make it like the military do your time and we will pay for your schooling. Most cops are pretty decent individuals, but there are always a few screwing everything up.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Charles Martel said:


> Interesting. Ill have to research their system.
> 
> I don't think I'd make police service (or any type of service) mandatory. I'd offer incentives for service (scholarships, subsidized tuition, housing, etc.), by qualified (exceptional) individuals, but, I don't think I'd ever make service compulsory.


The first step in confirming the thesis as presented would be to provide some evidence that money or other tangible goods are a universal motivator of good performance in the workplace. There are a bunch of egg heads out in the world who claim it isn't.

https://hbr.org/1993/09/why-incentive-plans-cannot-work

To support your second assertion it would be nice to show an affirmative link between IQ and job performance. Again the smart folks say there isn't one.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/pgs/i...894526031&uid=2&uid=3739920&uid=4&uid=3739256

I do think you are right in that you would not make a good cop..lol.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

What I wonder about is in what way is laying down in the middle of a store showing that you are protesting police violence? If you were in the middle of Christmas shopping for your family and couldn't even get into or out of the store, would you support them or hope to see some police violence on their dumb behinds? How about trying to make it to work or take your wife to the hospital because she having a baby (really did happen), would you support the geniuses blocking the interstate in protest of Lil Mikey Brown getting wasted, or would you be tempted to do some violence of your own and drive over the dimwits? 

If you want to protest police violence, go to the police station or City Hall. Don't shut down traffic or set businesses on fire. If you do that then you are just a bunch of idiotic a$$ holes.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

bigwheel said:


> I do think you are right in that you would not make a good cop..lol.


You're right...my IQ is roughly 30 points too high to become a cop. I shall have to console myself with a career in academia and the natural sciences.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Well best of fortunes on that. Sounds like a great career choice. My cousin is off the charts on the IQ..Prof at Rochester Univ. In the Psychology field. Has wrote several books on the subject. He can wax eloquent on the breeding habits of rats but otherwise is dumber than a box of rocks. Can't even balance his own checkbook. He is now retired and trying to spread communism in Australia. He loves DemoRats.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Charles Martel said:


> You can't pay cops enough to attract truly quality candidates. The brightest minds simply aren't attracted to law enforcement as a career. They're attracted to the sciences, the arts, engineering, and the medical fields. If you were to do as I suggest...making police service a stepping stone to higher professions...you could and would attract much higher quality candidates.


I take personal offense to that remark. I will also take the oggate, too.

I was, nor am I a drooler. Furthermore, I have known many brilliant men and women who chose public service because they saw it as a higher calling.


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## dannydefense (Oct 9, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> You're right...my IQ is roughly 30 points too high to become a cop. I shall have to console myself with a career in academia and the natural sciences.


Thankfully self righteous arrogance doesn't always increase with IQ.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

No offense to anyone, but it is my understanding that police entrance criteria do have a maximum IQ. It's the only occupation I know of that has such a criteria. I'll also add that the unionization pretty much limits cuts down the pool too. There are lots of talented people who want nothing to do with a union dominated occupation.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I should take a pass on* this* cop bashing thread. 'tis too sharp an argument for my sword. I do, after all have the intellectual prowess of a soap dish. I guess I will go play with a shiny object.

Instead of going to college I spent my youth on a warship off of Beirut and took an oath to spend the best years of my life serving my community.

Spare me your platitudes and righteous indignation. There are plenty of bright and well meaning people who are born in less than ideal circumstances and the silver spoon somehow missed our lips. We take the best jobs we can and make the most out of our lives. I am just a cop but I'm not settling in life. My family is very proud of me. I have done the job well and I've done it in a way I can look at myself in the mirror. It's easy to sit in an ivory tower and cast aspersions but you will never understand Police or military men and women until you strap on a ballistic vest and a gun belt, or take up a rifle and go out on patrol or stand watch. I have said it before, if you can do it better, sign up. We need you. We even accept arrogant, pompous smart asses.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> Joe makes some good points, but I think he's off on a few as well.
> 
> Independent of Joe's comments, I believe its time to re-think the role that police have in our society. I've come to question the wisdom of having large, full-time, professional police forces. I believe this is in direct conflict with the interests of a free society. Just as thinking, freedom loving individuals are mistrustful of standing armies, I believe we should be equally mistrustful of large professional police forces (especially large, federally funded and militarized police forces like we have today). I think the growing problem of police brutality is due to a) to the federal/DHS "no hesitation" training that many agencies are adopting, and b) the disconnect (and often resentment) that police officers feel towards the public at large.
> 
> ...


based on the above statement.... Thank God you are not in charge, cause you have absolutely no idea about modern policing.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> You're right...my IQ is roughly 30 points too high to become a cop. I shall have to console myself with a career in academia and the natural sciences.


your IQ being high does not mean squat in the streets. being a cop is not for every one and definitely not for you. you would not last a year in a major metropolitan police force.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Diver said:


> No offense to anyone, but it is my understanding that police entrance criteria do have a maximum IQ. It's the only occupation I know of that has such a criteria.


Can you show me that in print? I would love to see it.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> You can't pay cops enough to attract truly quality candidates. The brightest minds simply aren't attracted to law enforcement as a career. They're attracted to the sciences, the arts, engineering, and the medical fields. If you were to do as I suggest...making police service a stepping stone to higher professions...you could and would attract much higher quality candidates.


that has been done already and it was a complete failure. people applied for the job so that they could get their college bills paid by the department. it only attracted candidates who wanted a free ride in college, most of them were arrogant and thought they were better than the people in the community they promised to serve. not to mention some of them were cowards who avoided the streets. I suggest you stick to your arts and sciences cause you will definitely suck at policing


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Diver said:


> No offense to anyone, but it is my understanding that police entrance criteria do have a maximum IQ. It's the only occupation I know of that has such a criteria. I'll also add that the unionization pretty much limits cuts down the pool too. There are lots of talented people who want nothing to do with a union dominated occupation.


who ever told you that lied to you. think about it... wouldn't that be a form of discrimination? oh you cant be a cop because your IQ is so high you're a genius? does that sound right to you?


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Can you show me that in print? I would love to see it.


Sorry, wish I could. It was something stated by some of the cops on another forum. It was unclear whether it was their department or something much more broad., but it was stated seriously as a criteria for being able to fit in to the surrounding community.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

csi-tech said:


> I should take a pass on* this* cop bashing thread. 'tis too sharp an argument for my sword. I do, after all have the intellectual prowess of a soap dish. I guess I will go play with a shiny object.
> 
> Instead of going to college I spent my youth on a warship off of Beirut and took an oath to spend the best years of my life serving my community.
> 
> Spare me your platitudes and righteous indignation. There are plenty of bright and well meaning people who are born in less than ideal circumstances and the silver spoon somehow missed our lips. We take the best jobs we can and make the most out of our lives. I am just a cop but I'm not settling in life. My family is very proud of me. I have done the job well and I've done it in a way I can look at myself in the mirror. It's easy to sit in an ivory tower and cast aspersions but you will never understand Police or military men and women until you strap on a ballistic vest and a gun belt, or take up a rifle and go out on patrol or stand watch. I have said it before, if you can do it better, sign up. We need you. We even accept arrogant, pompous smart asses.


Police and military are two very different things, or at least should be. I believe that is a big part of the problem we have today.

BTW: I think you are not only smarter than a soap dish, but you somehow slipped by the testing criteria. Thank you for your service.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Charles Martel said:


> Interesting. Ill have to research their system.
> 
> I don't think I'd make police service (or any type of service) mandatory. I'd offer incentives for service (scholarships, subsidized tuition, housing, etc.), by qualified (exceptional) individuals, but, I don't think I'd ever make service compulsory.


What's mandatory is universal service for four years choice of branch is most times up to the individual.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Diver said:


> Sorry, wish I could. It was something stated by some of the cops on another forum. It was unclear whether it was their department or something much more broad., but it was stated seriously as a criteria for being able to fit in to the surrounding community.


 I have two family members who are law enforcement, and they are very sharp.
I would go into combat with either one. And that is the greatest compliment an old soldier can give someone.


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## RoyLanchester (Dec 10, 2014)

Like every job there are assholes and screw ups. The only difference is when Bob from accounting makes an error on his TPS report it doesn't end up on the nightly news and spur riots in the streets.

I have major respect for cops. 99.9% are good guys who have one of the hardest jobs in the world. They deal will scumbags, people who want to kill them, people who do not respect them and others on a daily basis. So I cut them a ton of slack when they interact with me and if they are a bit curt or grouchy. 

Treat them with respect and more often than not you'll get respect back. Even if you don't get it back, still give it to them.


And I still think they should be paid more and be given more physical and psychological training.


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

The biggest problem is that LEO candidates are drawn from the general population, having gone through the liberal biased dumbed down indoctrination of public school. Just like the military, it takes a while to weed out those who should not be there. I think it's even harder to field good LEO's because now they have to observe an absurd set of engagement rules and be social workers. I considered police work when I got out of the Navy but, after careful consideration, I realized I would probably end up in the cell next to the first idiot who spit in my face or insulted my family lineage. My mind could handle it now, my body? not so much.

Edit: I have a couple friends who are deputies. They are great people and I would do anything I could to help them if needed.


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## RoyLanchester (Dec 10, 2014)

Boss Dog said:


> My mind could handle it now, my body? not so much..


Haha yep! In a perfect world every cop would have the wisdom of a 50 year old and the body of a 20 year old.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

The current exam applicants take is a joke, we even give them all of the answers in a study guide. Promotional exams are a B^&%h. Based in Ianone's principals, forensic science, policies and general orders.


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## OC40 (Sep 16, 2014)

I was out of this video in a moment, some times he has something that to say but if you can't even get your facts right just shut up. 

Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993, which set forth agreements signed by nearly every nation in the world — including the United States. The catch, however, is that while it’s illegal in war, it’s legal in domestic riot control.

Just saying ... before you open your mouth know your topic.


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## NotTooProudToHide (Nov 3, 2013)

I'm far more concerned about people that are writing laws and giving police depts orders rather than the individual rank and file officers. Our last election had less than a 40% turnout and locally half the offices ran unopposed. I've heard quiet a few stories about our local leadership and what they order our local pd to do and its quiet disturbing.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> who ever told you that lied to you. think about it... wouldn't that be a form of discrimination? oh you cant be a cop because your IQ is so high you're a genius? does that sound right to you?


Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops - ABC News

More and more departments and jurisdictions are applying maximum IQ standards (in my particular jurisdiction the limit is 110) to new candidates. These limits have been tested in court. They aren't going away. The implications and motivations for these types of standards are troubling at best.


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## ekim (Dec 28, 2012)

IMO, the biggest problems for LEO's are politicians / lawyers that write the laws, politicians / lawyers that control the police dept's and the idea that you need a higher education to be a LEO. If you have no common sense, think the badge gives you more power, and don't know / understand the Constitution then no education will make you a better LEO. Bigger guns will not make you a better cop. Cops are not baby sitters, same as the military. They both have a specific job they are suppose to do and the parents of these bad guys should have done their job before turning they're kids loose on society. To many politicians, lawyers and mental health quacks out there have caused many of society's problems! Then throw in the unions that protect the bad cops and we are fighting a loosing battle.


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

My son in law who is a very bright kid tested for the Ventura PD, passed all the tests but then was told that they had enough white LEO's so they had to hire more latino's....
He will be moving out of Calif with us and has already talked with the Sheriff's office up in Oregon where we will be moving to. They are delighted with the idea of him coming up and doing the testing for their department. Cant wait for next year!!


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

dannydefense said:


> Thankfully self righteous arrogance doesn't always increase with IQ.


Apparently intelligence don't increase with IQ points either. Good point.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Can you show me that in print? I would love to see it.


Not sure about Mr. High IQ's data but when I first got in the po po bizness many moons ago...the guy in charge said..we was not genius's. That group was culled out of the running early. They would get bored too easy I think was the main allegation. I aint real high on the charts and i got real bored. As they say poleece work is 99% boredom and 1% stark raving terror. Thats all I know..lol.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops - ABC News
> 
> More and more departments and jurisdictions are applying maximum IQ standards (in my particular jurisdiction the limit is 110) to new candidates. These limits have been tested in court. They aren't going away. The implications and motivations for these types of standards are troubling at best.


I'd better run! I missed MENSA by 10 points! Actually I just checked it was only 4 points. I thought they required 160. I'm a fart smeller! I mean a smart feller.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I have gone to Crime Scene schools and met the highly paid serologists who do the DNA work for the state run crime labs and the biologists who help them. They are extremely intelligent, highly sought after and as boring as a damned 2x4. Their hygiene is atrocious! They never get their teeth cleaned at the dentist and their breath would knock a vulture off a shit wagon! They can only get laid by their own kind. They are devoid of a sense of humor and they frown upon anyone who is having a good time. 

I went to a class in Tampa, FL. and went to a "Gentlemen's club" in Ybor City. I don't remember alot but I remember coming into the crime scene class in bad shape. The guy I went with was still wearing the clothes pins the dancer put on his nipples. The "Smart" people requested that we be "ejected" from the class. We won though...............Somehow.

I also remember an iguana.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops - ABC News
> 
> More and more departments and jurisdictions are applying maximum IQ standards (in my particular jurisdiction the limit is 110) to new candidates. These limits have been tested in court. They aren't going away. The implications and motivations for these types of standards are troubling at best.


not every state follow this stupid ruling. that is discrimination no matter how you slice it. I understand the court ruled that it was not. my question is, how sure are they that the high IQ guy would just quit in a few years? no different than gun control.... oh you cant have an AK martel, terrorist use those kinds of rifles. I know you are not a criminal, but who knows, in the future you might turn into one. does that sound fair to you? issues like this should be fought and argued all the way to the supreme court. in my department they make you sign a pre hire contact stating that you will work at least 5 years or else you will have to pay $38,000 if you resigned earlier than 5 years.


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

minimum work length requirements are a mixed bag of crazy its easier to lose a little money on law enforcement hiring practices than fight a community because you now have a bunch of toxic cops patrolling the streets.


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

IQ tests are misleading.. It does not tell how smart you are, just how your brain works on gaining and retaining knowledge. My IQ when tested was 167 but my mother didnt want me to join MENSA because she had the same problem as me.. she had a high IQ but no willingness to use it, We love to do things with our hands to build things... I really dont like to think much as you probably can tell by the dribble in most of my posts..


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## ApexPredator (Aug 17, 2013)

LOL mensa the society for the socially incapable.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Ok..lets get this show on the road. Yall go take this test and report back on the results. I was going to take it myself but I'm busy right now.

https://www.learnmyself.com/IQ-Test


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## Doc Holliday (Dec 22, 2012)

That was a complete waste of time.... It says free and when you go through it at the end it says to get your results just pay 19.99

Yea its a free test but not free results!


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> not every state follow this stupid ruling.


True, but, more states, municipalities and agencies are adopting maximum IQ standards every year. As a result, we're going to continue to see an increase in violent conduct by police officers.

Regardless of what our friend bigwheel says, multiple studies link violent tendencies to lower IQ. Statistically speaking, the lower a person's IQ, the more likely they are to commit violent crime. Conversely, the higher a person's IQ, the less likely they are to commit violent crime. These tendencies exist regardless of an individual's occupation.

Crime Times- linking brain dysfunction to disordered/ criminal/ psychopathic behavior

The dumber we make cops as a group, the more dangerous they will be to the rest of us.



mhans827 said:


> that is discrimination no matter how you slice it. I understand the court ruled that it was not.


I agree. I would definitely call this discrimination. My feelings on the subject are irrelevant, though.



mhans827 said:


> my question is, how sure are they that the high IQ guy would just quit in a few years?


They aren't. This is a red herring. These maximum IQ standards have nothing to do with helping departments retain officers. They're about ensuring that officers aren't smart enough to challenge unconstitutional or unethical orders. The establishment wants police to be blunt instruments, not sharp tools. This strategy has been employed by totalitarian regimes and police states the world over.



mhans827 said:


> issues like this should be fought and argued all the way to the supreme court. in my department they make you sign a pre hire contact stating that you will work at least 5 years or else you will have to pay $38,000 if you resigned earlier than 5 years.


Agreed. I'd love to see the rank and file of America's police forces populated by officers boasting high IQ's. The simple truth is that high IQ individuals have never been attracted tolaw enforcement in large numbers. It seems insane to artificially lower average IQ's even more than they would be naturally.

I understand that those of you within the law enforcement community take this sort of discussion personally. That's fine. You have a certain amount of skin in the game. Hopefully you'll be offended enough to demand changes within the law enforcement community itself.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't get the high IQ angle, yes police do need to be smart. Yet being Mensa smart isn't like some magic force field of protection. A street thug with an IQ slightly higher than his shoe is still a threat. That doesn't change no matter how smart you are.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Seneca said:


> I don't get the high IQ angle, yes police do need to be smart. Yet being Mensa smart isn't like some magic force field of protection. A street thug with an IQ slightly higher than his shoe is still a threat. That doesn't change no matter how smart you are.


Police have to make judgment calls on a frequent basis and the consequences of making them badly often are somebody winds up dead or injured. One would hope we would select the individuals who will make the best judgments. Ruling out the smartest individuals seems like a poor way to get that result. Here is an example of a poor decision:

Georgia county refuses to pay medical bills after SWAT tosses grenade into baby?s crib | FOX31 Denver


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

Doc Holliday said:


> IQ tests are misleading.. It does not tell how smart you are, just how your brain works on gaining and retaining knowledge. My IQ when tested was 167 but my mother didnt want me to join MENSA because she had the same problem as me.. she had a high IQ but no willingness to use it, We love to do things with our hands to build things... I really dont like to think much as you probably can tell by the dribble in most of my posts..


IQ can be misleading. IQ tests don't (and can't) measure certain aspects of human intelligence (i.e. creativity, social intelligence, etc.), however, they do accurately measure a person's raw/innate cognitive abilities. There are very strong correlations between IQ and overall success, income, criminality, even general health and well being.

IQ isn't everything, but, make no mistake...IQ matters.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Diver said:


> Police have to make judgment calls on a frequent basis and the consequences of making them badly often are somebody winds up dead or injured. One would hope we would select the individuals who will make the best judgments. Ruling out the smartest individuals seems like a poor way to get that result. Here is an example of a poor decision:
> 
> Georgia county refuses to pay medical bills after SWAT tosses grenade into baby?s crib | FOX31 Denver


They do have to be smart, I agree! I think I said that!?!
Yet they don't need a PHD in Physics, they are working with people not designing nuclear reactors. Communication skills and the ability to read people are probably two of he most useful skills a policeman can have. Integrity, good ethics and a sense of fairness are all things I'd rather see in a policeman, long before his IQ comes into question.

If you carry this argument to it's logical conclusion, and say policemen need to be super smart, then politicians and all those who hold public office need to be geniuses. It doesn't work that way.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Seneca said:


> They do have to be smart, I agree! I think I said that!?!
> Yet they don't need a PHD in Physics, they are working with people not designing nuclear reactors. Communication skills and the ability to read people are probably two of he most useful skills a policeman can have. Integrity, good ethics and a sense of fairness are all things I'd rather see in a policeman, long before his IQ comes into question.
> 
> If you carry this argument to it's logical conclusion, and say policemen need to be super smart, then politicians and all those who hold public office need to be geniuses. It doesn't work that way.


What is needed is simply to remove those with demonstrably bad judgment from the job and to do it promptly so people can retain faith in the system. This is what we have in NYC.

In 179 NYPD-involved deaths, only 3 indicted ? EXCLUSIVE - NY Daily News


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> True, but, more states, municipalities and agencies are adopting maximum IQ standards every year. As a result, we're going to continue to see an increase in violent conduct by police officers.
> 
> Regardless of what our friend bigwheel says, multiple studies link violent tendencies to lower IQ. Statistically speaking, the lower a person's IQ, the more likely they are to commit violent crime. Conversely, the higher a person's IQ, the less likely they are to commit violent crime. These tendencies exist regardless of an individual's occupation.
> 
> ...


 First of all IQ test still dont mean crap, don't get me wrong I have nothing against IQ test, but most PD's do not restrict High IQ people from becoming LEO. also, having low IQ doesn't mean you have the tendency to be violent. Ted Bundy had high IQ. as for police applicants, they go through background investigation and psychological test which is the basis of their mental stability.

As far as me demanding changes, I have done more than that. I have arrested police before, something you would not even dream about. I remember calling you out one time when you were whining about bad cops. I suggested you do something about it but all you did was whine. you even wrote that you dont want to be "storm troupered" by cops if you complained about them.

so tell me martell, what have you done with that high IQ of yours when you are not acting like you are better than everyone else? other than serve the armed forces, have you put it to good use? you did serve in the armed forces right?

PS.

I dont take discussions like this personally. to be perfectly honest, I just dont like you. not because you have high IQ, but its because you whine too much and you are arrogant.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> First of all IQ test still dont mean crap, don't get me wrong I have nothing against IQ test, but most PD's do not restrict High IQ people from becoming LEO.


I never said that all (or even the majority) of PD's restricted IQ. I only said that an ever increasing number of them are.



mhans827 said:


> also, having low IQ doesn't mean you have the tendency to be violent.


Study after study shows a strong correlation between IQ and the predisposition to commit violent crime. Surely, you must understand that your continued insistence that there is no correlation does not make it so.



mhans827 said:


> Ted Bundy had high IQ.


Ted Bundy also possessed a myriad of rare and dangerous types of abnormal psychology. Citing a single outlier does nothing to disprove an otherwise clear statistical relationship (in this case, IQ and rates of violent crime).



mhans827 said:


> as for police applicants, they go through background investigation and psychological test which is the basis of their mental stability.


You can't state that one type of testing (IQ) doesn't "mean crap", while propping up other types of testing (psychological) as being reliable. Police screening tests clearly aren't working, are they? Police involved shootings are on the rise despite a marked, multi-decade drop in overall violent crime rates. In many areas, officers are shooting and killing more Americans (per capita) than they ever have.



mhans827 said:


> As far as me demanding changes, I have done more than that. I have arrested police before, something you would not even dream about.


This is so ridiculous I'm not even going to respond.



mhans827 said:


> I remember calling you out one time when you were whining about bad cops. I suggested you do something about it but all you did was whine. you even wrote that you dont want to be "storm troupered" by cops if you complained about them.


I think you conveniently forget many specifics regarding our past discussions. I told you that I was currently preparing to run for major public office. I will affect change when I become our local police chief's boss.



mhans827 said:


> so tell me martell, what have you done with that high IQ of yours when you are not acting like you are better than everyone else?


What have I done with my high IQ? You mean, beyond earning multiple advanced degrees in more than one science/engineering discipline, and from no less than three esteemed institutions of higher learning? You mean, besides using my education and technical background to create and manage several successful businesses over the years? Beyond creating good, high paying jobs for hundreds of people living in my community? Beyond ensuring that my child (and many generations of my family beyond her) will have a stable and dependable source of income long after I am gone?

Gee, I don't know...


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Charles, I'd like to ask about one point you made. You indicated police involved shootings are on the rise. My understanding is there are no comprehensive statistics and that while the partial statistics available indicate a rise, it is unclear whether shootings by police are increasing, or reporting is getting better. Do you have something that supports that one point? Certainly anecdotal evidence would support you.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

What is the easiest 4 year degree to get? An Education degree. Just saying.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

This thread is starting to deteriorate.

First and foremost bad/crooked cops or those that have committed crimes do not need to be on the job at all.

Second for those that complain about cops getting off with not even a slap on the wrist for what "you" perceive is obviously a criminal action, I'd say stuff it. All large police departments have an internal affairs squad or a use of force investigation team. Additionally many controversial cases - like Ferguson MO - are sent by the local district attorney to the Grand Jury -made up of citizens not cops from the local community to ensure that these cases are reviewed in detail.

I don't think any of you that are complaining about police in custody deaths have taken the time to review even in the most cursory manner the documents that were put out there for all the world to see.

Thirdly it is a very dangerous world out there for the cops that do a job that 95% of you consider beneath your dignity to perform. You ask them to make decisions in seconds when you have days even weeks to second guess their actions. You fail to understand that while on a national level violence may seem to be going down - most likely due to the rise in shall issue CCW states and thugs not knowing who's armed and who's not - in your major cities NYC, Chicago and LA the murder rates are still extremely high. And It's not cop on the citizens, it's many times Black on Black and Latino on Latino. In Chicago alone in 2012 there were almost 600 murders.

Lastly, those of you that have had a bad experience in your contacts with various law enforcement professionals, I'm very sorry to hear that. I always ask my self, how would I want to be treated if I were in the other person's shoes. I put the burden of how an encounter went on the subjects I stopped. If they decided to cop an attitude, then the end result was always the direct result of their actions. I think if you honestly think back on that incident you may find that you brought the officer's response down on you primarily because of your actions.

Oh and we have usually no Idea who you are nor what you've done when you get pulled over during a traffic stop. For all we know you could have just blown up the Federal BLDG in Oklahoma City. So until your record comes back from DMV and NCIC that you're harmless, you are always a serious threat to my going home safely to my family at the end of shift.

CM I truely hope you are not elected.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Sarge, You are one of the good ones brother. We need a Cops only forum so we can discuss the job and learn from the experiences of others. I'm OK with bashing because it gives me an opportunity to explain a few things from an LE perspective and listen to what may well be some experiences with some true "Bad Apples". I've been on Police forums but you don't see the real Officers. They all put up a macho front. What few we have here are some of the best I've talked to.

I have worked with another superior, highly professional Officer (who is on this board) for 25 years. Recently, He and I worked a child molester/rapist/incestuous POS who did unspeakable things to many children. We both worked in concert and nailed his ass to a wall. There are plenty of fine men and women in this job and we need to be heard.


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## rjd25 (Nov 27, 2014)

Notsoyoung said:


> What is the easiest 4 year degree to get? An Education degree. Just saying.


This is the most moronic statement I have ever read. First of all, you don't get a 4 year degree in "education". Teachers get an undergrad degree in any regular study area and their grad work is in "education".


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

csi-tech said:


> Sarge, You are one of the good ones brother. We need a Cops only forum so we can discuss the job and learn from the experiences of others. I'm OK with bashing because it gives me an opportunity to explain a few things from an LE perspective and listen to what may well be some experiences with some true "Bad Apples". I've been on Police forums but you don't see the real Officers. They all put up a macho front. What few we have here are some of the best I've talked to.
> 
> I have worked with another superior, highly professional Officer (who is on this board) for 25 years. Recently, He and I worked a child molester/rapist/incestuous POS who did unspeakable things to many children. We both worked in concert and nailed his ass to a wall. There are plenty of fine men and women in this job and we need to be heard.


I think your posts here are valuable. I am sure many of my posts are annoying to you, but there are two different dynamics that need discussion. Dealing with "bad apples" as you put it, is certainly worthwhile and I can understand your desire for a venue to discuss such things with other LEOs, but the other issue, which is the one that is the current cause of all the protests, is the dynamic between LEOs and the law abiding public.

That dynamic is decidedly unhealthy at present and it desperately requires improvement. You seem to be one of the few LEOs who is willing to even listen to law abiding citizens who have a beef, and I hope you won't abandon these discussions. Most other LEOs seem to want to think of themselves as deserving of hero worship they don't deserve, and can't handle criticism when it is deserved.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Lastly, those of you that have had a bad experience in your contacts with various law enforcement professionals, I'm very sorry to hear that. I always ask my self, how would I want to be treated if I were in the other person's shoes. I put the burden of how an encounter went on the subjects I stopped. If they decided to cop an attitude, then the end result was always the direct result of their actions. I think if you honestly think back on that incident you may find that you brought the officer's response down on you primarily because of your actions.


I don't think you realize how truly offensive this comment is. I had a cop break into my house! He brought with him a schizophrenic who had previously assaulted me. I filed a criminal complaint with the department. They refused to investigate.

You are the kind of cop that populates that department. You are someone who refuses to see that some law abiding citizens have valid complaints and then instead of recognizing that an LEO screwed up say it must be the law abiding citizen who brought it on himself.

You are exactly what is wrong with police today.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Diver said:


> I don't think you realize how truly offensive this comment is...


Liberal response.

My suggestion to you is to;
Get over it, do something about it...but for Heaven's sake, STOP YOUR CRYING AND BITCHING.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Diver said:


> I don't think you realize how truly offensive this comment is. I had a cop break into my house! He brought with him a schizophrenic who had previously assaulted me. I filed a criminal complaint with the department. They refused to investigate.
> 
> You are the kind of cop that populates that department. You are someone who refuses to see that some law abiding citizens have valid complaints and then instead of recognizing that an LEO screwed up say it must be the law abiding citizen who brought it on himself.
> 
> You are exactly what is wrong with police today.


I'm sorry you thought this comment was aimed at you. It wasn't. I don't know all the circumstances surrounding the incident you've referred to on more than one occasion, and won't comment on it cause I'd only be speculating.

You mention law abiding citizen, and I've had very few issues with "law Abiding Citizens". Those that have committed an infraction - say a traffic offense - they really aren't obeying the law. But I can assure you - and I realize that that doesn't mean a hill of beans to most on this forum - that I've definitely made some mistakes over the past six decades on this earth and in each case taken it as a learning experience.

I also don't know how many contacts you've had with the police, but I'd say that it was very limited. In my last few years, I've interacted with the general public at least 10 or more times each day that I worked. Contacts ranging from rapists, to little old ladies that got into a fender bender, to a candidate for the South Carolina Governors office. Did each go smoothly? Not all. But everyone got treated with respect and got what they deserved.

I'll relate a sort story. Back a number of years ago, we had a shots fired into a residence in the small community I was working in. When we caught up with the perps at one of their mother's home there were six of us in on the arrest. That was a Friday night. Sunday a call came out for an injured child (about 5) at the same residence. When I got there one of the shooters (out on bond) opened the door and waived me in to the residence to help the child that had a severe cut (accidental).

As I said, I'm really sorry you had a bad experience, but to say all cops in NJ or NY are bad because of one incident is to say that all doctors are bad cause they didn't cure you of the Clap


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> I'm sorry you thought this comment was aimed at you. It wasn't. I don't know all the circumstances surrounding the incident you've referred to on more than one occasion, and won't comment on it cause I'd only be speculating.


Your comment was directed at me and it isn't the first time you've been insulting toward me. You are typical of the arrogance I have run into with cops. Your attitude is exactly why I don't trust cops in general. You are disrespectful, but expect to be respected. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Diver said:


> ...I am sure many of my posts are annoying to you...


Ya think?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Diver said:


> Your comment was directed at me and it isn't the first time you've been insulting toward me. You are typical of the arrogance I have run into with cops. Your attitude is exactly why I don't trust cops in general. You are disrespectful, but expect to be respected. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.


I agree with your assessment of dear Sarge, as well as your assessment of most law enforcement. Problem is, you are attempting to combat a disease by addressing a symptom. It doesn't work that way. It is my opinion that Sarge is certain he is a good, decent and upstanding cop who lives up to his oath to uphold and protect the constitution. I felt the same way in a former life, and no squealing, whining or complaining was ever going to change my mind.

So, what am I saying? I'm saying that continuously kicking the cops is going to do nothing but cause them to kick back. They have been taught to do a job, and that job isn't what you think it is.

So, what is it that will change things? Put things back to the way the founders expected us to maintain? Two things; neither of which will happen.

1- Return our society to the religious and moral society necessary to maintain that nation. That is to say, society needs to embrace the responsibilities that go hand in hand with our rights.

2- As a society, and not as a profession, learn the origin of our rights and how our rights have been protected. When we all learn the difference between constitutional laws (and what that means), regulations, codes, etc., and how they are all being applied to us and how, we can retake our position as sovereign citizens in sovereign states, within a republic that takes seriously the job of protecting those rights.

Until both of these things are accomplished (and they will not be), continuously harping of the cops, here, is doing no good.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

Diver said:


> Charles, I'd like to ask about one point you made. You indicated police involved shootings are on the rise. My understanding is there are no comprehensive statistics and that while the partial statistics available indicate a rise, it is unclear whether shootings by police are increasing, or reporting is getting better. Do you have something that supports that one point? Certainly anecdotal evidence would support you.


You're right, it's difficult to get comprehensive statistics on officer involved shootings. It can be even more difficult to make sense of the statistics when you do see the raw data. Officer involved shootings are down in some areas, while they appear to be skyrocketing in others. In my own state, officer involved deaths are through the roof. You're far more likely to killed by a police officer than you are by a criminal in Utah.

Killings by Utah police outpacing gang, drug, child-abuse homicides | The Salt Lake Tribune

Police shootings are also through the roof in places like Albuquerque New Mexico, where officers have shot and killed 24 people (and been involved in 34 total shootings) since 2010. Albuquerque police have shot and killed more people than the NYPD in the last two, despite being 1/6 the size.

Albuquerque's Shoot-First Police Finally Begin Facing Questions - Esquire

Places like Utah and New Mexico have fairly recently adopted the DHS "no hesitation" training. So far, there's a strong correlation between rises in officer involved shootings and this new federal training.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

sovereign citizens in sovereign states: I wonder what that's all about?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

SARGE7402 said:


> sovereign citizens in sovereign states: I wonder what that's all about?


Something this nation will never see because our countrymen are so disconnected from their heritage, and are too reliant upon other entities (the government, for example) to do for them which they should do for themselves.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

And then there is the Sovereign Citizen Movement whose members believe they are not bound by government laws such as paying income taxes, licensing their vehicles and a whole host of other things they claim the government has no authority to do.
The movement is small, and most of the time they get put in jail.
It is a fringe movement.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

I just ran across this:

Man who can?t use arms facing gun possession charges | New York Post

Even though it is a NY paper the case is in NJ.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> I never said that all (or even the majority) of PD's restricted IQ. I only said that an ever increasing number of them are.
> 
> Study after study shows a strong correlation between IQ and the predisposition to commit violent crime. Surely, you must understand that your continued insistence that there is no correlation does not make it so.
> 
> ...


you are gong to be the boss of the local police chief in your town.... don't think because you are a businessman or an engineer you can run a police department. you are going to be another di blasio of NY city. stick to your business since you are doing well and good for your community like you say, but leave policing to cops. you could try politics and give that a run, but the bottom line is, your arrogant attitude won't work out in public service. how can you honestly serve the people if you think you are the almighty and Mr. Superior. I guess the military branch you served in did not teach you how to be humble...


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

". So until your record comes back from DMV and NCIC that you're harmless, you are always a serious threat to my going home safely to my family at the end of shift.
""

What about innocent until proven guilty?

There is no excuse for some of what's going on. There are a lot more sadistic losers getting hired...for a reason.

Cops are trying to score money and toys...but the people giving it to them are trying to establish slavery and zero accountability for officials.
That's wrong.

There is diabolical intelligence wrangling all these yabo's...it's not just the brutes or it wouldn't really happen.

Anyway, I have been even and said "you want muslims or insecure guys that are regular?"

But the more "me go home at night!" Just makes more people go "oh yeah. The black & white fergusons have overpopulated their rat tank again" and that's about all it really is.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> And then there is the Sovereign Citizen Movement whose members believe they are not bound by government laws such as paying income taxes, licensing their vehicles and a whole host of other things they claim the government has no authority to do.
> The movement is small, and most of the time they get put in jail.
> It is a fringe movement.


They are right on the mark with what they say and do. The real ones, the ones who are genuine in their motivation, are good citizens. In my mind the only reason they are "fringe" is because the vat majority of our nation's citizenry have no idea what has been done to them and this country.

There are two groups within that "movement" who have done a disservice to the idea. One, and it isn't even a "group" but a couple of idiots, who killed a trooper for stopping them. Very stupid, obviously. The other group is a few who have intentionally violated uniform traffic codes in front of cops in order to get the cops to enforce the codes on them. They do this in order to set the system up for a Title 42 suit. This, too, goes against the very notion of living a free life.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

mhans827 said:


> you are gong to be the boss of the local police chief in your town.... don't think because you are a businessman or an engineer you can run a police department.


Yes, being the Mayor would effectively make me the boss of the police chief. It would also give me the authority and influence to implement whatever policies I believed were best for my community.



mhans827 said:


> you are going to be another di blasio of NY city.


You're clearly talking our of your a$$. I am as philosophically and politically diametrically opposed to Bill de Blasio as one can possibly get. De Blasio is a liberal democrat, I'm a fiscally conservative civil Libertarian. I would/will be nothing like that clown.



mhans827 said:


> stick to your business since you are doing well and good for your community like you say, but leave policing to cops.


Hey, thanks for the unsolicited advice. Please don't be too offended when I disregard it entirely.



mhans827 said:


> you could try politics and give that a run, but the bottom line is, your arrogant attitude won't work out in public service. how can you honestly serve the people if you think you are the almighty and Mr. Superior.


You don't know me, man. Quit pretending you do.



mhans827 said:


> I guess the military branch you served in did not teach you how to be humble...


I think you have me confused with somebody else. I've never served (or claimed to have served) in any branch of the U.S. military, and I have no interest whatsoever in ever serving in that capacity. I've never, ever been interested in the armed forces as a career. Not even when my uncle (a former U.S. Senator), promised to give me an appointment to the Air Force Academy when I graduated from high school.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

"They are right on the mark with what they say and do. The real ones, the ones who are genuine in their motivation, are good citizens. In my mind the only reason they are "fringe" is because the vat majority of our nation's citizenry have no idea what has been done to them and this country."

Yup....but see how all you have to do is attach a slur and the rubberheads run to it without thought - "someone is not walking the same direction around the pole!"...muslim thinking without other thought....

I'm cracking up over here! Martell asks for a disillusionment and all I can offer is "they need to think it comes from them and people think it's shiny" - because if you don't it will just be a lost opportunity to maybe turn a community back to self interested self benefitting ways.
Be ready for that visit from the devil too. Several of them.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Posted by CM: *You're clearly talking our of your a$$. I am as philosophically and politically diametrically opposed to Bill de Blasio as one can possibly get. De Blasio is a liberal democrat, I'm a fiscally conservative civil Libertarian. I would/will be nothing like that clown. *

While what you say might be true remember Joe Stalin and A Hitler were at opposite ends of the political spectrum and neither one of them were good for their countries nor the world.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Odd Apple posted: *What about innocent until proven guilty?*

Funny but a lot of you were calling for the lynching of the cops in NYC and MO without a trial. However your point is well taken, I never stopped a vehicle for the fun of it. They's already broken one of any number of traffic laws (speeding) and I'm sorry at that point you're guilty or I wouldn't have stopped you and the only question at that point is guilty of what simpy speeding or something more serious.

And remember the first rule in policing is Go home alive at the end of your shift.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

Actually.....if Mao had not killed all those chinese, think how many more there would be today.
The deal is, the middle classes money and land are being taken which is more than "burning the plague section" of rome.


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## Charles Martel (Mar 10, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> Odd Apple posted: *What about innocent until proven guilty?*
> 
> Funny but a lot of you were calling for the lynching of the cops in NYC and MO without a trial. However your point is well taken, I never stopped a vehicle for the fun of it. They's already broken one of any number of traffic laws (speeding) and I'm sorry at that point you're guilty or I wouldn't have stopped you and the only question at that point is guilty of what simpy speeding or something more serious.


Wrong. Your badge does not make you a judge of guilt or innocence. I am innocent until I have been proven guilty in a court of law, and by a jury of my peers. I pray to god your attitude is uncommon among your contemporaries in the law enforcement community.



SARGE7402 said:


> And remember the first rule in policing is Go home alive at the end of your shift.


Funny, I always thought the first rule in police work was to "serve"...and that the second was to "protect".

Your first rule sounds an awful lot like pure self preservation to me. There's absolutely nothing noble in that.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

SARGE7402 said:


> Odd Apple posted: *What about innocent until proven guilty?*
> 
> Funny but a lot of you were calling for the lynching of the cops in NYC and MO without a trial. However your point is well taken, I never stopped a vehicle for the fun of it. They's already broken one of any number of traffic laws (speeding) and I'm sorry at that point you're guilty or I wouldn't have stopped you and the only question at that point is guilty of what simpy speeding or something more serious.
> 
> And remember the first rule in policing is Go home alive at the end of your shift.


You know what? I'm about to start a thread called, "A Conversation on Citizens." Cops welcome, and citizens with some good sense are welcome. I don't even care if nobody posts a thing in it; Denton is going to rant a bit about idiots I saw, today; including one moron who could have killed my wife had we not been paying attention.

Stand by a few minutes while I knuckle-pound the opening post of the thread.....


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

The motto is Courtesy-Service-Production er woops..make that Protection.


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## oddapple (Dec 9, 2013)

<>Funny but a lot of you were calling for the lynching of the cops in NYC and MO without a trial.>>

I was? Oh...you were just lumping me in with the juggaboos I see.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> Yes, being the Mayor would effectively make me the boss of the police chief. It would also give me the authority and influence to implement whatever policies I believed were best for my community.
> 
> You're clearly talking our of your a$$. I am as philosophically and politically diametrically opposed to Bill de Blasio as one can possibly get. De Blasio is a liberal democrat, I'm a fiscally conservative civil Libertarian. I would/will be nothing like that clown.
> 
> ...


 oh yeah thats right... military service is below you. I remember you telling a kid in this forum to go college instead of enlisting because he will just be another "cannon fodder".... whatever that means. oh yes I have a good idea how you are martell. 17 of 23 years being a detective gave me the ability to read people. but I cant honestly take credit of being able to read you. any regular joe can do that. your arrogance overflows and oozes through your pores, I have dealt with people like you before. trust me, if you ever get elected as mayor, you are going to suck just like di blasio. your arrogance will be your down fall. please dont take that as an insult, take it as a friendly unsolicited advice.


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Charles Martel said:


> I think you have me confused with somebody else. I've never served (or claimed to have served) in any branch of the U.S. military, and I have no interest whatsoever in ever serving in that capacity. I've never, ever been interested in the armed forces as a career. Not even when my uncle (a former U.S. Senator), promised to give me an appointment to the Air Force Academy when I graduated from high school.


And yet your forum name is that of a man whose claim to fame is that of the military commander who stopped the muslims who were invading France. A strange choice for someone who has no interest whatsoever in ever serving in the military. Proclaiming so much disdain for that service while taking the name of one who did serve his country.


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## midtnfamilyguy (Nov 17, 2012)

"Your first rule sounds an awful lot like pure self preservation to me. There's absolutely nothing noble in that"

My wife,kids, and grandkids think it's pretty noble that I can come home with the same amount of holes in me that I was born with to care and show love to them. But then again, I think that my profession is a noble profession. I would put my life in harm's way to protect you and any innocent citizen from harm. Showing love is noble in my honest opinion and as the GOOD BOOK says "Greater love has no man than he who gives his life for another" It also says to "love your neighbor as yourself" So if loving my neighbor as myself and giving my life for another is noble, so it must be that wanting to preserve my life is noble also.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

midtnfamilyguy said:


> "Your first rule sounds an awful lot like pure self preservation to me. There's absolutely nothing noble in that"
> 
> My wife,kids, and grandkids think it's pretty noble that I can come home with the same amount of holes in me that I was born with to care and show love to them. But then again, I think that my profession is a noble profession. I would put my life in harm's way to protect you and any innocent citizen from harm. Showing love is noble in my honest opinion and as the GOOD BOOK says "Greater love has no man than he who gives his life for another" It also says to "love your neighbor as yourself" So if loving my neighbor as myself and giving my life for another is noble, so it must be that wanting to preserve my life is noble also.


"Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the Children of God." It says that in there too. Somewhere on a Mountain as I recall.


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