# whats better for frighting your way through a city?



## PurpleBeard91 (Feb 25, 2014)

ive been looking into this a little bit more now that workds pciked up and im looking to buy a new gun for prepping. id like to limit my gear as much as possible to just a main gun and my 9mm side arm. So lets say in a SHTF occurrence and your limited to a long gun and your side arm. what would be best for your long gun to fight your way through a city and to your bug out spot. A 12 gauge pump or maybe a 223. or 7.62x39r??? ive been debating this for awhile and would like your help. thank you and god bless!


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Zombie makeup would work for frighting people.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

If you are planning to fight your way through a city, you will not make it very far. 
You would be far better served by avoidance, evasion.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

Unfortunately you are going to continue to debate this. There are an uncountable number of threads about which gun is better or worse for this or that. My opinion? If your looking for something specifically to fight with then you want a military pattern rifle in an intermediate cartridge. Either 5.56 or 7.62x39 fit the bill. Stay away from exotic guns like Tavor, AUG. An AR15 and AKM are your best choices. AKMs are cheaper but heavier. AR15s are lighter and more modular but cost a little more. Both rifles are maneuverable and are capable of comparable practical accuracy.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

You could get a 9mm carbine. You could share ammo and possibly mags if it's a glock sidearm. That wouldn't be my choice but if you're looking for simple and limited gear it's an option. Personally I would go with a 5.56 and a .45.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

I'll go along with ricepaddydaddy. I'd really have to look at skirting the city if at all possible.


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## LONE WOLF (Dec 12, 2014)

Yes you wont live long popping of rounds in a city. Stealth mode will be your only chance!


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## knfmn1 (Dec 2, 2014)

I tend to agree with the responses so far...if you're trying to fight your way through a city, unless you're very, very lucky, you're not going to survive for long. 

Having said that, I would be moving as inconspicuously as possible through the city, likely at night with a full sized pistol and a military style rifle, probably either an AK or an AR pattern. Do your best to avoid anyone seeing you at all.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

AR 15 chambered for 2.23 and 5.56plus a 45 for me. But I would at all cost try to get out without engaging anyone if I could keep from it. Once you engage you may be unable to disengage.


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## survival (Sep 26, 2011)

Your meaning "Fighting your way *OUT *of a city" correct? As if your already there when SHTF. Correct?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

If I was going to "fight my way" through the city I would want at least one platoon of Army infantry backed up by armor. Two platoons would be better. Air support would be good, too.


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## paraquack (Mar 1, 2013)

This might help due to its speed.
View attachment 9350


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## jbrooks19 (May 22, 2014)

This again? AK vs AR, Glock vs 1911.... Search is your friend. 


IMHO, lay low and keep a low profile. Avoid conflict as much as possible. I have a family that would be with me and would not want to leave them alone because i was "Looking for a fight" nor would i want to loose one of them. Stealth by far is the most important in a SHTF scenario.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

When bugging out you want to take the most direct way out of the city. Don't go through it. When on the road avoid population centers. only engage if your left no choice all the while still be moving to get away. Any prolonged contact will not end well for you.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

To stay unseen going from building to building might be your best bet and if that were the case the shotgun is going to be your best friend. Other than that 556/223 AR.


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## scramble4a5 (Nov 1, 2012)

Let's say the SHTF and you are in downtown Chicago. Your comfortable suburban home is 20 - 30 miles away, which for many is reality. You couldn't carry enough ammo to fight your way home. As others have said avoidance and evasion are your only chance at getting out. That's here where I am. Other places may be different.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> If you are planning to fight your way through a city, you will not make it very far.
> You would be far better served by avoidance, evasion.


 I agree with the above . But should I get caught in the city I am going with what I have with me 5.56 AR and 9mm SR9C


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

Get out fast, get out quietly, and if confronted, react first with extreme violence. Many cities have rivers either running them or on their outskirts. You might want to try to find your way to one since most of the congestion and attention of the bad guys will be on the streets, and find some kind of craft that will take you out of the city, then if you need to, circle around the city to your home. Once you get out of the city it might take you several days to get around it. 

You will want something that can put allot of rounds down range fast and can engage targets at least one large city block away, if not two. Shoot and scoot. If you run into some bad guys, engage them and then as quick as possible run away and try to find a way around them. Do not get bogged down in a fire fight or they will just send people around you.

What pistol you carry is up to you. A 9mm will be fine. As for a rifle, I think that I would go with an AR, higher magazine capacity then the standard internal 10 rd magazine in a SKS, you can carry more rounds, and you can put a whole lot more rounds down range. IMO a shotgun may be better then just a pistol but it puts a real limit on your range and how many rounds for it that you can carry. That is MY preference, but if you would rather go with a AK or a SKS, once again that is up to you. You can hear people arguing about which is best for days.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

I agree. As many rounds down range would be best that's why I settled on an AR. AK would work well to. Both would allow you to carry more ammo and allow more shots without reloding. The main thing is avoid contact where possible and find the quickest way out. If your downtown take the path of least resistance. stay away from shooping centers, hospitals, and bad sections of town. Have at least 3 ways to achieve this already planed out. I would even plan 4 or 5. I have done this already on a folding map not my phone, so I know exactly which way I am going. If it's impassable I go to the next and so on. Fortunatly, I am in the outer portion of the city so I can get into the country relatively quick. I plan to use my truck if running and go as far as it will take me. If you live in the center of a large city driving out probably would not be possible.


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## OctopusPrime (Dec 2, 2014)

I will take your statement as you will go through a city and kill if need be...not go John Rambo on everything that moves...so here is what I would want... I would want to be very physically fit, I would want to be alone without anybody to protect and slow me down, dark ragged clothes and face paint to darken my face, a silenced high power rifle semi auto with about 300 rounds, a silenced pistol .40 with 4 clips as back up, a combat knife, compass, city map, night vision, camel back filled to capacity of water, life straw, high calorie power bars, caffeine pills.. A ar or ak is a waste of resources in this situation imo you would need to make every shoot count and make sure you heal ass out of the area after taking a shot.


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Me? If I had to fight my way thru a city I'd opt for an M-60A3 Tank with half the ammo storage filled with bee hive rounds. Not real comfortable to live in, but accomodates 4 and it's a b - - tch to break into. Gas milage does suck:armata_PDT_41::armata_PDT_41::armata_PDT_41:


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

Pointless thread is pointless


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

PurpleBeard91 said:


> ive been looking into this a little bit more now that workds pciked up and im looking to buy a new gun for prepping. id like to limit my gear as much as possible to just a main gun and my 9mm side arm. So lets say in a SHTF occurrence and your limited to a long gun and your side arm. what would be best for your long gun to fight your way through a city and to your bug out spot. A 12 gauge pump or maybe a 223. or 7.62x39r??? ive been debating this for awhile and would like your help. thank you and god bless!


.12 gauge pump.


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## Sarkus (Sep 11, 2014)

I lived in a city for over 15 years and put some thought into this. This is just my opinion, of course, and assumes that you really do need to get out of the city.

1. Any firefight you get into will be a relatively close ranges. So carrying a gun that can be accurate beyond 100 yards isn't really necessary, especially when factoring in other considerations. 
2. As others have noted, you will presumably be wanting to avoid conflict as much as possible. That means you need to be able to reasonably conceal any bigger gun. So a carbine or shotgun with no stock is really the only option, as any bigger rifle will be very apparent even to people who otherwise would not pay attention to your passing. 
3. You aren't going to be carrying all that much to begin with. Forget those idiots who think they are going to hike unmolested out of a city in chaos with 30 pounds of gear on their back. Nope, you are going to be a target with that much gear to all those people who didn't prepare for whatever the SHTF situation is. That means simplicity and limited load out is going to be the rule and you are going to have to have some bug out supply cache somewhere outside of the city where you can keep larger amounts of food, ammo, guns, tents, sleeping bags, etc. In the city you are going to need to look like you are as unprepared as everyone else and have nothing of value.

Given the above, you could argue that anything more than a pistol would be pushing it. If you really must carry a long gun, it can't be bigger than a carbine. So a short AR-15 would fit that bill, as would a PCC (pistol caliber carbine.) That said, its still going to be difficult to conceal even a carbine, especially if weather and other considerations mean you can't wear a long coat. Which is why I'd probably look closely at something like the Keltec Sub 2000 in that circumstance. Ammo commonality with a pistol will simplify your load out and the Sub 2000 has the unique ability to fold the barrel back over the stock, greatly reducing the size of what you have to conceal while still being relatively quick to deploy if you need it.

Just my $.02, etc.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Like others have said, avoidance is probably your best bet... or create a plan to move out of the populated areas of the city. Bad stuff happens there now and in a WROL it will get real bad real fast.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Why would you fight your way through it When you can go around it? Unless you are already in the city and are trying to get out. In that case shelter in place and if there is fighting wait for it to die down. Why make your self a potential target when if you don't have to or if a little patience and avoidance might get you further along the way towards getting to your BOL. 

Attempting to single handedly fight your way through a city in the midst of a WORL situation, is perhaps one of the quickest way I know of to become a statistic. If fighting your way out is plan A, then you might want to come up with a more optimistic plan B.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Avoiding a fight if possible would be best as has been pointed out in many responses. For ammo/gun, how about the 5.7 x 28mm cartridge? Pistol and bullpup rifle (compact) that will take the same round. 30 round magazines for the pistol and 50 round mags for the rifle. 6-8 mags for the rifle, 4-6 for the pistol. Flat shooting and packs a punch but fairly light. Really expands the lethal range of a pistol and being in a city, longer shots likely will not be necessary so the bullpup will be easier to move around with.


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

Yeah, ninja your way out rather than going Rambo. But that's not what you asked, is it?

In this specific situation, the AK would probably be your better choice. It hits harder and is probably more effective at shooting through glass, some kinds of walls, and the kinds of cover you will probably encounter in an urban setting. On the downside, the system (weapon + ammo) is heavier so you will be packing less rounds.

An AR-15 type rifle is probably a more versatile all-around system, and ammo resupply, spare parts, etc would probably be easier to come by. If you're packing the heavier M855 "green tip" ammo, you will gain some cover defeating capabilities, but the terminal ballistics aren't as good as the AR rounds. (they won't kill stuff quite as dead)

So I see the AK as slightly better at "fighting your way out of a city," but the AR-15 as a better all-around choice.


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## CWOLDOJAX (Sep 5, 2013)

Yep, If timing is against me and I need to get home from downtown, fighting my way out is not my plan.
Every shadow will be my friend and I will get to the outskirts of town as fast and gray-man as I can.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

E.H. said:


> Unfortunately you are going to continue to debate this. There are an uncountable number of threads about which gun is better or worse for this or that. My opinion? If your looking for something specifically to fight with then you want a military pattern rifle in an intermediate cartridge. Either 5.56 or 7.62x39 fit the bill. Stay away from exotic guns like Tavor, AUG. An AR15 and AKM are your best choices. AKMs are cheaper but heavier. AR15s are lighter and more modular but cost a little more. Both rifles are maneuverable and are capable of comparable practical accuracy.


A military platform is an oxymoron sorta like military intelligence. He needs a .12 gauge pump. Kindly take a breath.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Arklatex said:


> You could get a 9mm carbine. You could share ammo and possibly mags if it's a glock sidearm. That wouldn't be my choice but if you're looking for simple and limited gear it's an option. Personally I would go with a 5.56 and a .45.


A 9 mm carbine? What are you smoking?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> A 9 mm carbine? What are you smoking?


The Germans used their 9 MM machine pistols to great advantage in WWII.
The Russian PPSH submachine gun fired a handgun round, as did the US Thompson M1A.
Granted, they were all full auto, but a person could do worse than a 9 MM carbine.


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## survival (Sep 26, 2011)

What is the common arms for US Troops in urban cities? There will be your answer.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

I didn't read every thread, . . . but I'm going to give you some of the same advice that came from Vietnam, . . . the first gulf war, . . . Iraq, . . . and Afghanistan.

The 5.56 cartridge is a lousy cartridge. The AK 7.62 x 39 is a bit better. BUT, . . . if you are serious about staying alive, . . . in an urban hostile environment, . . . you need firepower, . . . meaning 7.62 x 51 or 30-06. They have been making concealment out of cover for several decades now.

5.56 and the AK round will not do that as well. If you have to punch through a wall, . . . heavy door, . . . automobile, . . . to defend yourself, . . . they are inadequate or at best, . . . marginally adequate.

OK, . . . now the Rambo's who have never drawn hostile fire pay can chime in and explain how wrong I am, . . . go ahead, . . . my flak jacket and rant suit will protect me. Better yet, . . . My M14...................

May God bless,
Dwight


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## PurpleBeard91 (Feb 25, 2014)

thank you everyone for the quick responds! I agree with everyone that stealth is your best friend. i live in a city in howard county of Indiana. im a 10 minute drive to the edge of town. very close to downtown though. but if i put the petal to the metal it wont take long to get out of dodge. I do not intend to go out looking for a firefight. thats just asking for a bullet. But in times like so you can never know what might happen so thats why i said fight my way out. looks like i have my choices narrowed down to an AR or AK though!


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## PurpleBeard91 (Feb 25, 2014)

i take it your a veteran. an as i was rasied you thank everyone who has served. Thank you from myself and Thank you from my large military family.


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## TacticalCanuck (Aug 5, 2014)

Grey man is the way to go. But if I could only have one long gun I'd take a KSG - one side buck the other slug with a slug in the chamber. 15 shots pump and slugs make short work of most things I've ever hit em with &#55357;&#56835;


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## Prepadoodle (May 28, 2013)

dwight55 said:


> ...The 5.56 cartridge is a lousy cartridge. The AK 7.62 x 39 is a bit better. BUT, . . . if you are serious about staying alive, . . . in an urban hostile environment, . . . you need firepower, . . . meaning 7.62 x 51 or 30-06. They have been making concealment out of cover for several decades now.
> 
> 5.56 and the AK round will not do that as well. If you have to punch through a wall, . . . heavy door, . . . automobile, . . . to defend yourself, . . . they are inadequate or at best, . . . marginally adequate.


Can't argue with that. You might also want to look at something like the DPMS GII. These are more or less big AR-15s (AR-10) chambered in 7.62 NATO. The GIIs in particular aren't much heavier than an AR-15, but pack a whole lot more punch. Of course, ammo is heavier and costs a lot more, but what's your life worth? The weapon itself isn't much more expensive than a good AR-15.

DPMS GII AP4 - .308 / 7.62 NATO - 7.25 pounds (!!) MSRP $1500
DPMS GII Recon - .308 / 7.62 NATO - 8.5 pounds MSRP $1760
DPMS GII Hunter - .308 / 7.62 NATO - 7.76 pounds (!!) MSRP $1700 *

* would be my choice. (I hate quad rails. I like 20" medium-heavy contour barrels. I hate the old style fixed front sight)

DPMS GII site


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Reacting quickly is more likely to get you out of a population center than a weapon. While most everyone else is blinking their eyes and scratching their butts, you be moving out. 

Keeping a keen eye on current events isn't just to have water cooler conversation. It could be what gives you the extra hour's worth of head start that you need to get out of town before the thugs start swarming and the government closes up the city.

Cities scare the crap out of me. Too many people. Swell places to hang out when everything is rolling smoothly, but not the place I want to be when the S hits the F. 

Went to the Ft. Worth area a couple years ago. Half way through Dallas, the traffic came to a stand still. Miles and miles of motionless cars because of some lousy driver with a heavy foot. How long would I have survived if the S had hit the fan while I was in that jam in the middle of Dallas? I had a couple hand guns and a couple ammo boxes of .45 ACP ammo. Even if I had my AK and a trunk full of loaded magazines, things would have been really, really grim.


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## Boss Dog (Feb 8, 2013)

I'd call Marty McFly to come pick me up. We'd be gone in a flash! 


In all seriousness, I have not been packing a long gun in the vehicle but, been considering changing that as of late. It will mean changing my ghb a bit.


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## 6811 (Jan 2, 2013)

I got a Yugo AKM under folder 762x39 in case I need to get out of dodge. I'm getting a pistol AR in 556/223 for my GHB and my job issued me Glock 22 for everyday carry. all the above plus stealth should get me home


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## HuntingHawk (Dec 16, 2012)

Bradley because its faster then an Abrams. :arrow:


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

It seems only logical to me that if you are in the middle of a city when the SHTF and need to get home, the last thing you would want to do is hunker down in place until things "settle" down. IMO things will get worse over a period of time long before they get better. I believe that it would take several hours to days before full scale lawlessness breaks out. I think that initially your biggest problem could be blocked streets/roads, and then after a fairly short period of time the cockroaches will start crawling out of their dens. IMO the smart thing to do is be gone when they do. As for weapons, the poster stated that he would have a pistol for close range, which again, in my opinion, I suggest having something with a longer range, not to get into long range firefights, but to "encourage" others from taking potshots at you from a distance or chasing after you. Most AR's have collapsible stocks and 16 inch barrels, and are in fact carbines, and it makes it easier to conceal under a long coat then a full sized rifle, not to mention that the greater amount of center fire ammo you can carry is a huge plus. 

To me the smartest thing that you could do is get out as soon as possible, keep a very low profile, and try to go around large groups/mobs of people. Crowd dynamics will be markedly different in a SHTF situation then a normal day. There will not be crowds of people shopping or going about their regular business. Everyone will be either heading for their homes or holing up where they work. I think that one of the largest challenges that someone would face is the possibility that all streets will quickly turn into parking lots, so some outside of the box is going to be needed. If the roads and bridges are blocked, think about walking on rail road tracks and bridges, rivers (even if walking along the banks), and you may have to actually go in the opposite direction of your home just to get out of the city then circle around it to get home. Move fast when possible but have patience when needed. 

My personal plan for what to do about getting home from a Large City if the SHTF is NOT GOING to a large city in the first place. I live about midway between Chicago and St Louis, and I decided several year ago that neither one of them have anything in them that I want to go to and couldn't find somewhere else less populated or on the net.


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## E.H. (Dec 21, 2014)

HuntingHawk said:


> Bradley because its faster then an Abrams. :arrow:


Then my vote would be a M113, ya it doesn't have a main gun but it's lighter and faster then the Bradley plus it's a hell of a lot easier to maintain. It's also a lot more spacious on the inside then most other tracked vehicles (now that's an oxymoron).


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## Notsoyoung (Dec 2, 2013)

The problem with a M113 is that it's armor is aluminum. A 30-06 at close range will penetrate it's side. On the other side though, it FLOATS. You can cross small bodies of water with it. Just one safety point though, before entering water, make sure that the drain plugs are installed, the bilge pumps are operational, and the board in front is extended. Been a lllloooonnggg time since I was a M113 driver, but I remember a driver who forgot to do any of those things before entering the water. Good thing everyone on it could swim.


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## GasholeWillie (Jul 4, 2014)

I don't quite get this "fight my way out of the city" mentality. I think it sort of indicates that you have something of value you are carrying that others may not stop at violence to remove from you. Why would anyone want to keep/detain you personally in a city? If all you had to do was move about 30 miles on foot, water? About all you might need. If you got a full pack on with the intention of making into an excursion escape to move 30 miles to home? I would want to look as low key as possible, weapons concealed, acquire a bicycle and be home in 3 hours, stay off the main roads as much as possible, try to hitch a ride.

As I type this I am specifically thinking the big city close to me. 47 miles to home. Once I got beyond the perimeter of the city if on foot, then I got a lot of riding and or walking to do if no vehicles are moving. I would like to have a small get home bag that may have a few comfort or survival items inside. For the distance I'm traveling? You carry enough body fat and energy stores to run 2 marathons. Conserve wisely. Again water is the big concern. Thinking of my scenario, either way I go involves crossing a major river early on, must be done by boat or bridge. 1 direction parallels the river for about 25 miles thru population centers, might be good or bad. The other 2 ways are non populated suburbs but 4 lane highway almost the whole way, again might be good or bad. Either way, without a vehicle, I want a bicycle. I'll be home in a few hours. On foot it might be 2 days. Bike can go 12mph on pavement, if I have one of my fitted road bikes ave about 16mph, few hours.

Weapons? First choice would be my CZ P-09 with light and laser, 2 spare mags. That is 58 rounds. Next either my kabar knife or the SOG mini pentagon or both along with a pocket knife. Next, streaming pepper spray. And here is where the break is; Carrying my M4 in this situation WILL draw attention to me and either LEO or local thuggery will want my gun and stuff. I can not conceal an M4 and have it be quickly usable, unless moving at night. If I'm on a bicycle, I can move but again my attention is completely on riding the bicycle, hearing will be diminished due to passing wind. vision is severely limited due to forward focus. I'm at a distinct disadvantage.

My last thought on this whole scenario of "fighting my way out" of a city. Intelligence. How much do you know? How much does everyone else around you know? Are they even aware of a problem? Your knowledge base, can you drive a truck? Standard shift vehicle? What if that became available to you as a means out? So in my mind, fighting my way out is so far down my list of things to do and prepare for is, well, out there. I would not have a place to hide or conceal my M4 without a personal vehicle, pre SHTF event, but if I did I would want it with me, but it still might get left behind due to it's high profile it projects on me as a higher value target.


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## jimLE (Feb 8, 2014)

*i know there's no perfect way to know if and/or when we'll have a total power grid frailer, economic collapse,or what ever.but if you do watch for signs that something like that will/might happen.then it's time to get of the city then.same goes for when something like that just happened.in other words.sooner you get out of town after a power grid frailer, economic collapse,or what ever.the better your chances are of getting out safely..and like others has pointed out.go undetected much as possible.blend in with your surroundings when needed.avoid any amount of ppl when possible..and as for what fire arm to go with in the way of rifles go..i suggest one short enough where your highly unlikely to have something interfere with it when you bring it up to fire.and have plenty of stopping power for what your shooting at.have a city map and a compass with you at all times.those 2 things can help you keep your direction and your immediate location in mind..learn the different routes you can take to get out of town.then choose at least 3 to 5 of them.just because 1 route is the idea route to take now. dont mean it will be later on,when you do bug out..you might even get a gps unit for your vehicle..that is if you haven't already..reason i suggest that.is i used mine to take the short route from the town where i do my primary food shopping each month.it not only took me through downtown.but it also took down some back roads as well..another route to think of.is rail road tracks..that is if any are close to where you work and home.*


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Denton said:


> Reacting quickly is more likely to get you out of a population center than a weapon. While most everyone else is blinking their eyes and scratching their butts, you be moving out.
> 
> Keeping a keen eye on current events isn't just to have water cooler conversation. It could be what gives you the extra hour's worth of head start that you need to get out of town before the thugs start swarming and the government closes up the city.
> 
> ...


Feels your pain on trying to get through the giant parking lot of Dallas when its time for the yups to get off work. Last time I got hung up I was packing Mr. Sig and 50 rounds in the leather biker gun toting vest. Felt pretty safe. Not much room to maneuver a long gun.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

If you can get out a head of the crowd that's fine, problem is everybody looking for a way out of dodge is going to hit on that idea about the same time, I'm not so sure being in front of a stampede is going to be the safest place to be.


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