# Solar Solar Solar... Lets go!



## Trihonda

I’ve been contemplating solar for a while. Wife isn’t 100% sold, but mainly because our house faces south, and all panels would be on the front of our home. We live in a nice neighborhood and tho appearance isn’t everything, she doesn’t want the front of our home to look all solar paneled up... recent, we looked at other homes in our area with solar, and realized there’s a way to put panels on the front of our house in a mower aesthetically pleasing location. 

So, I Have an appointment for a Good reputable and local solar company to give a quote on roof panels.. I have a couple neighbors with systems from the same company. They’ve been very satisfied. The neighbors that have them, got grid systems, and the panels have paid for theMselves in 5-6 years. There is no battery backups or electrical storage. My prepper minded buddies are all about getting Off-grid battery systems for doomsday survival... 

In talking with the solar sales reps. It seems like integrating a grid and off-grid system is complicated, and extremely expensive with adding batteries. Allegedly a regular grid system costs about $20k (less a 30% tax credit) so $13k. Adding batteries is around $6k+ for each battery, and a system takes a few batteries to work well..? Plus extra for install I’m sure. 

So I’m leaning towards a grid system, and most of my neighbors actually make a lot of money selling back to the utilities. They’ve also had a direct outlet installed that could be used in a grid down situation. Otherwise, their systems shut down if the grid did fail. Their system shuts down in order prevent juice flowing back into the system and electrocuting a lineman working on the cause of the outage down line. 

Any advice is appreciated.


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## Slippy

Trihonda said:


> I've been contemplating solar for a while. Wife isn't 100% sold, but mainly because our house faces south, and all panels would be on the front of our home. We live in a nice neighborhood and tho appearance isn't everything, she doesn't want the front of our home to look all solar paneled up... recent, we looked at other homes in our area with solar, and realized there's a way to put panels on the front of our house in a mower aesthetically pleasing location.
> 
> So, I Have an appointment for a Good reputable and local solar company to give a quote on roof panels.. I have a couple neighbors with systems from the same company. They've been very satisfied. The neighbors that have them, got grid systems, and the panels have paid for theMselves in 5-6 years. There is no battery backups or electrical storage. My prepper minded buddies are all about getting Off-grid battery systems for doomsday survival...
> 
> In talking with the solar sales reps. It seems like integrating a grid and off-grid system is complicated, and extremely expensive with adding batteries. Allegedly a regular grid system costs about $20k (less a 30% tax credit) so $13k. Adding batteries is around $6k+ for each battery, and a system takes a few batteries to work well..? Plus extra for install I'm sure.
> 
> So I'm leaning towards a grid system, and most of my neighbors actually make a lot of money selling back to the utilities. They've also had a direct outlet installed that could be used in a grid down situation. Otherwise, their systems shut down if the grid did fail. Their system shuts down in order prevent juice flowing back into the system and electrocuting a lineman working on the cause of the outage down line.
> 
> Any advice is appreciated.


I see a HUGE benefit in a Grid-Tie System...

for the Solar Company that sells you the equipment and the electric company that owns the grid.

No benefit for you.


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## Back Pack Hack

"Solar" isn't just one type of system.

Yes, solar panels generate electricity. But what you DO with that power can be a wide variety of things. Much of it is dependent on your local laws and utility rules.

Lots of people got solar in Florida, only to find out they can't use it when the utility goes off-line. They were simply worker bees, collecting power and shipping it to the power company. No provisions whatsoever for them to use it during a blackout. No batteries, no inverter, no transfer switch. They sat there in the dark cussing themselves.

If you can raise the funds and get a system you can utilize yourself, plus selling your excess back to the utility, all the better. Remember, however, you will be paid *wholesale* rates for what you deliver to them... NOT what you pay them for the same kWh. So you need a *lot* of roof real estate to make that a break-even proposition.

An option in between is to simply have a stand-alone back-up system. You use the utility power when it's available, but the system can switch you over to your own batteries and feed your house via an inverter during power outages. You don't have the advantage of selling power to the utility, but you use it instead to keep your batteries charged up.

Tax credits and rebates are fine, but you still gotta come up with the scratch to make it happen.


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## MountainGirl

$6k+ for each battery? wtf??


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## Back Pack Hack

MountainGirl said:


> $6k+ for each battery? wtf??


Not a simple 100aH AGM battery. More likely a wall-mounted battery panel like this:


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## Trihonda

I am not even sure if there’s an option here for off grid... UTG my neighbor and the solar company rep alluded to the ability to have a 120 outlet hooked up that could draw upon the solar should the grid go down. This small ability might not seem like a big deal, but just to charge USB lights, Battery banks, rechargeable HT radios, and operate minor electronics during the day would at least provide Some power. A rooftop array of panels should charge more than the handheld solar panels you can buy for emergencies


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## Back Pack Hack

Trihonda said:


> I am not even sure if there's an option here for off grid... UTG my neighbor and the solar company rep alluded to the ability to have a 120 outlet hooked up that could draw upon the solar should the grid go down. This small ability might not seem like a big deal, but just to charge USB lights, Battery banks, rechargeable HT radios, and operate minor electronics during the day would at least provide Some power. A rooftop array of panels should charge more than the handheld solar panels you can buy for emergencies


If that's all you need, there's plenty of bundled power station kits out there. Van dwellers, full-time boondockers and RVers use 'em all the time.

https://www.jackery.com/
https://www.goalzero.com/product-features/portable-power-stations/
https://www.suaoki.com/
https://www.rockpals.com/
https://westinghouseoutdoorpower.com/products/igen160s-portable-power-station


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## Chiefster23

If you are looking for a small to modest amount of back up emergency power, better to get a system that is independent of the grid. Grid tied systems require all kinds of extra crap that drives the costs way up. And be aware that the power company isn’t going to pay you the same rate for the power you generate as what they charge you for the power they supply. For me, the whole point of solar is to have power when the grid is down. I see no point in have solar panels without batteries and trust me, batteries are expensive.


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## Smitty901

make darn sure what you are getting into. Solar is a huge scam and many so called reputable companies are not. Do not tie any financing to your home. I repeat do not tie financing to your home. Good luck do a lot of home work at least a year and let the COV19 price hikes go away before buying. Solar with out batteries is not much use . Surely no real pay back. Solar muse store power for use when needed. It must store it so you can supply a steady power supply.


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## LDSreliance

Trihonda said:


> I am not even sure if there's an option here for off grid... UTG my neighbor and the solar company rep alluded to the ability to have a 120 outlet hooked up that could draw upon the solar should the grid go down. This small ability might not seem like a big deal, but just to charge USB lights, Battery banks, rechargeable HT radios, and operate minor electronics during the day would at least provide Some power. A rooftop array of panels should charge more than the handheld solar panels you can buy for emergencies


While this is possible, it requires an uncommon grid tie inverter that has a separate circuit for battery backup power. And it is literally the most expensive solar system you can buy, combining the best of grid tied with off grid capabilities. So if you can afford it, great. But like others have said, you can gain that same capability by purchasing a small off-grid solar setup OR grabbing a lithium generator. I have reviewed at least half a dozen on my Youtube channel if you are interested. They cost from about $100 to well over several thousand dollars depending on the size you want. Or a small, off-grid solar panel system can range from about $300 to the sky is the limit.

If you want to contact me I can help you properly size an off grid solar system. [email protected]


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## Trihonda

I’m not purchasing anything Major that will simply sit there unused until the apocalypse. I am preparing for stuff (Boy Scout style), but if we are to spend $15k on solar (is our rough estimate) then we want to reap some rewards down the road (when the apocalypse doesn’t happen). Yet have a system that provides some emergency power to charge things, as I’ve stated above. 

Our neighbors purchased a system from the same Company 5 years ago. And they’ve seen utility bill reductions and pay backs totaling $3k each year. They also installed a 120v direct connection of some kind, which is like to explore. 

I’ll delve into some of the other posts and information when I have a free moment at work. But also, we’d buy the system outright. No mortgage tie ins.


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## Back Pack Hack

Trihonda said:


> I'm not purchasing anything Major that will simply sit there unused until the apocalypse. I am preparing for stuff (Boy Scout style), but if we are to spend $15k on solar (is our rough estimate) then we want to reap some rewards down the road (when the apocalypse doesn't happen). Yet have a system that provides some emergency power to charge things, as I've stated above.
> 
> Our neighbors purchased a system from the same Company 5 years ago. And they've seen utility bill reductions and pay backs totaling $3k each year. They also installed a 120v direct connection of some kind, which is like to explore.
> 
> I'll delve into some of the other posts and information when I have a free moment at work. But also, we'd buy the system outright. No mortgage tie ins.


I suspect they're injecting a little bit of, shall we say, 'artistic licensing' into their $3k/annum 'profit'. If they're actually putting 3k a year into the bank after paying the depreciation on the system and for their utility bill, they must have one helluva bunch of panels.


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## Trihonda

I don’t think my neighbors had a “profit” of $3k per year. They were constantly getting a hundred here and there in “payback credits to their utility bill, over their usage calculations. They calculated that they saved $3000 per year. It’s a big house with lots of panels. 

So if we save 2.5-3k per year, the system will have paid for itself in 5-6 years and then (should for some crazy reason the apocalypse doesn’t happen, then it’s all profit/savings. Also if the utilities jack up their rates down the road, we’d have some protection from price inflations. 

And thats what I’m using to negotiate with the wife to consider solar. The idea of battery backups and such are hard sells. I’ll ask about options, and price them out, but my wife isn’t sold on the premise of doomsday prepping.


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## Back Pack Hack

Trihonda said:


> ..... The idea of battery backups and such are hard sells. .......


Ask her how much money is stuffed into the fridge and freezer.


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## LDSreliance

Trihonda said:


> I'm not purchasing anything Major that will simply sit there unused until the apocalypse. I am preparing for stuff (Boy Scout style), but if we are to spend $15k on solar (is our rough estimate) then we want to reap some rewards down the road (when the apocalypse doesn't happen). Yet have a system that provides some emergency power to charge things, as I've stated above.
> 
> Our neighbors purchased a system from the same Company 5 years ago. And they've seen utility bill reductions and pay backs totaling $3k each year. They also installed a 120v direct connection of some kind, which is like to explore.
> 
> I'll delve into some of the other posts and information when I have a free moment at work. But also, we'd buy the system outright. No mortgage tie ins.


The cheapest Sunnyboy Storage inverter capable of doing what you want is $2k and that is only 3,800W. So $15k for a full system with professional installation probably isn't realistic.

Also, as Back Pack Hack said, to get $3k value out of your solar panel system you need 18-22kW or so depending on where you live. So maybe there are some utility incentives but it sounds like it may be an exaggeration.


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## Chiefster23

Trihonda said:


> I don't think my neighbors had a "profit" of $3k per year. They were constantly getting a hundred here and there in "payback credits to their utility bill, over their usage calculations. They calculated that they saved $3000 per year. It's a big house with lots of panels.
> 
> So if we save 2.5-3k per year, the system will have paid for itself in 5-6 years and then (should for some crazy reason the apocalypse doesn't happen, then it's all profit/savings. Also if the utilities jack up their rates down the road, we'd have some protection from price inflations.
> 
> And thats what I'm using to negotiate with the wife to consider solar. The idea of battery backups and such are hard sells. I'll ask about options, and price them out, but my wife isn't sold on the premise of doomsday prepping.


My wife wasn't sold on prepping either. In fact, I got a lot of sarcastic flak about it. That is until we had a big power outage on a cold winter day. While the neighbors all shivered in the dark, we had heat, lights, TV, and she even got to use her hair dryer. Pre covid she groused about my storage shelves. We never ran out of TP, paper towels, food, or anything really. Amazing how that works! :tango_face_wink:


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## Trihonda

LDSreliance said:


> The cheapest Sunnyboy Storage inverter capable of doing what you want is $2k and that is only 3,800W. So $15k for a full system with professional installation probably isn't realistic.
> 
> Also, as Back Pack Hack said, to get $3k value out of your solar panel system you need 18-22kW or so depending on where you live. So maybe there are some utility incentives but it sounds like it may be an exaggeration.


The system we want, we believe will be round 21k, there's a 30% ish tax rebate, which brings the cost down to around 14-15k. This will be essentially the same install as our neighbor across the way

There's definitely a lot to consider in this thread, all the advice. I appreciate all the feedback. I am hearing folks push for a battery system. We will explore all options, but we live in a suburb and we use a lot of electricity in daily life. Not sure how that translates to off grid systems? In a survival situation p, I know we can do without a lot, and could live on minimalist power. But we are t there yet, so for now, I'll blast my home theater, run my 3-d printer non stop, and keep my AC a nice cool 70 degrees.


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## Elvis

I designed and installed a 5000 watt solar grid tied system designed to sell excess daytime power to the grid. The system was plenty large enough to power our well ect for years in a grid down emergency. The original system included a $2800 battery bank. Total system cost after federal payback was about $8500 five years ago and was projected to pay for itself in 8 years. At the time the local power company was willing to pay 14.5 cents per KWH and sell the excess power to other customers in the big city for a higher rate (using renewable solar energy as the selling point). The 5000 watts in panels wasn't quite enough to cover my power usage but it's what I could afford and since the power company was paying me more for excess solar than I paid them for power (at the non solar rate) it should have come close to giving me a $0 power bill most months.

So I built the system, steel ground mounts, a 7000 watt inverter, a serious charge controller. At the end I filled out the final paperwork for the 2 way meter and discovered that the local utility had changed what they would pay me for excess power, cutting it from 14.5 cents per KWH to 4 cents per KWH, So I ended up never paying $1000 for the 2 way meter to be installed. Lot's more to this story but the bottom line is we are still hooked to the grid but our grid power bill averages around $30 a month and when the local grid goes down which it does for several days a year we never even notice.

Without a long term contract for the local utility to pay you at least 12 cents per KWH a solar system with a small battery backup will never save you money. @Trihonda


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## Smitty901

Back Pack Hack said:


> I suspect they're injecting a little bit of, shall we say, 'artistic licensing' into their $3k/annum 'profit'. If they're actually putting 3k a year into the bank after paying the depreciation on the system and for their utility bill, they must have one helluva bunch of panels.


 Or more like someone is handing out a lot of wishful thinking


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## Trihonda

I had the solar company come out to give a quote, measure the roof, etc. I was told there is enough space (where it’s aesthetically pleasing) to fit a 5KW system (Does this sound right), maybe 20 panels..? and that the power company has a contract for 20 years at $.12.

It’ll take a couple days for the actual quote, but my neighbors have all got similar systems installed in the $21k range - 25% tax rebate, and - $500 local energy star rebates. Also another neighbor is serious about going with a system, and we were told we’d get a group discount. 

I was told a battery backup is $8,000 right. Ow due to crazy costs of batteries. The sales rep said many of the folks he knows in the solar realm are planning to wait a few years, as these battery systems are dropping in price drastically. The plan is to,wait 5-10 years, then convert to a battery system.

The other aspect is that my system (air cond, etc,) would pull electricity from the panels first, then any extra juice needed gets pulled from the grid. So if energy prices go up crazy amounts in 6-7 years, I’d only pay for what I use at night, and any overages during the day/sunlight hours. And if it gets more cost effective to look into battery system upgrades then, awesome.


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## LDSreliance

Trihonda said:


> I had the solar company come out to give a quote, measure the roof, etc. I was told there is enough space (where it's aesthetically pleasing) to fit a 5KW system (Does this sound right), maybe 20 panels..? and that the power company has a contract for 20 years at $.12.
> 
> It'll take a couple days for the actual quote, but my neighbors have all got similar systems installed in the $21k range - 25% tax rebate, and - $500 local energy star rebates. Also another neighbor is serious about going with a system, and we were told we'd get a group discount.
> 
> I was told a battery backup is $8,000 right. Ow due to crazy costs of batteries. The sales rep said many of the folks he knows in the solar realm are planning to wait a few years, as these battery systems are dropping in price drastically. The plan is to,wait 5-10 years, then convert to a battery system.
> 
> The other aspect is that my system (air cond, etc,) would pull electricity from the panels first, then any extra juice needed gets pulled from the grid. So if energy prices go up crazy amounts in 6-7 years, I'd only pay for what I use at night, and any overages during the day/sunlight hours. And if it gets more cost effective to look into battery system upgrades then, awesome.


Most of that is spot on.

You can fit 5kW worth of panels on almost any roof. However, you want to make sure that all or most of that is southern facing. Also, what is the slope of your roof? Standard 5/12? If you have a really shallow or really steep angle that will drastically affect the production output, depending on the season.

Please keep in mind that the 25% ITC rebate will only help you if you itemize your taxes AND you won't already be maxing out your deductions. In other words, if you itemize your taxes and are already going to get a max refund due to heavy student loans, charitable donations, real estate losses, or tax avoidance strategies then the ITC rebate is of no benefit to you at all. It sounds good but really only helps those people who might need that rebate to get over the hump on their deductions.

The cost of batteries is already dropping rapidly. I can help you with that if you are interested. I carry an economy line of lithium iron phosphate batteries that would be perfect for this application. Also, keep in mind that you won't be powering your entire house in an outage, just one or two circuits. There are no grid tied inverters that I know of that will do the whole house. The other way to do it instead of getting a grid tied inverter with a battery backup option is to have an electrician wire in an ATS (automatic transfer switch) that can switch the whole house over to a battery bank if it detects no grid power. The ATS can then be connected to a generator or battery bank and inverter that will provide power to the house until power is restored.

If you are going to install the system and then wait for falling battery prices, you will have to decide whether you are going to get a grid tied inverter that is capable of a battery backup option or not. Because if you don't get one with that feature (because it is more expensive) and then decide 5 years later that you want to get some batteries you will either have to throw away that first inverter and upgrade to one that can do batteries or go with the above mentioned ATS route.


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## MountainGirl

Trihonda said:


> I had the solar company come out to give a quote, measure the roof, etc. I was told there is enough space (where it's aesthetically pleasing) to fit a 5KW system (Does this sound right), maybe 20 panels..? and that the power company has a contract for 20 years at $.12.
> 
> ....


Might maybe wanna hold off on any 20-yr plans; & go peek at the nuclear battery thread. Doubt they'll be ready for a couple years, but it'll change everything when come they do.


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## Smit974

Trihonda said:


> I had the solar company come out to give a quote, measure the roof, etc. I was told there is enough space (where it's aesthetically pleasing) to fit a 5KW system (Does this sound right), maybe 20 panels..? and that the power company has a contract for 20 years at $.12.
> 
> It'll take a couple days for the actual quote, but my neighbors have all got similar systems installed in the $21k range - 25% tax rebate, and - $500 local energy star rebates. Also another neighbor is serious about going with a system, and we were told we'd get a group discount.
> 
> I was told a battery backup is $8,000 right. Ow due to crazy costs of batteries. The sales rep said many of the folks he knows in the solar realm are planning to wait a few years, as these battery systems are dropping in price drastically. The plan is to,wait 5-10 years, then convert to a battery system.
> 
> The other aspect is that my system (air cond, etc,) would pull electricity from the panels first, then any extra juice needed gets pulled from the grid. So if energy prices go up crazy amounts in 6-7 years, I'd only pay for what I use at night, and any overages during the day/sunlight hours. And if it gets more cost effective to look into battery system upgrades then, awesome.


If you are looking for a 5kw system are you willing to do the install yourself? I can tell you I sell solar systems and my cost for a 5kw system is 8k so 21k is a it expensive. Yes their is engineering and labor but not that much. If you want a system check me out on Facebook under SFSOLAR or SFsolar2020 you will see my information if you want to call and ask questions.

Solar is a great ROI if you can be a DIY.


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## Trihonda

Exploits continued... we got one bid at $1.95/KW installed, by a local,company, but the gear I think might not be super high end? Not sure... the company has Done some solar roofs at a few of my neighbors, and they’ve been happy with the results.. however, another neighbor had an upstart come to their door and sell them a solar roof system. They were quoted for reportedly better quality panels and such, but slightly more expense. Additionally the sales guy and parent company were not local... 

I decided to hear what they had to say, and arranged a quote. The sales guy turned out to be very nice at first, and my wife and I were actually impressed with the level of quality components compared to the first... BUT the pricing, even after steep “discounts” was $2.04/kw. These prices all factored in the tax credits, etc. despite that, my wife and we’re leaning towards this newer company. BUT we insisted on a night to think about the deal, etc.. Then the sales guy put on a high pressure “must close now” pitch. His main argument was that he lived out of state and it’d be hard to get back the next day to collect a down payment check.. so we caved and wrote a check for 50%.. but that evening I couldn’t sleep. We wound up canceling the check the next morning and nixing the deal... I think the company wasn’t a scam (from doing some research), but the lack of a local rep to maintain accountability was a major a concern.


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## Elvis

Keep in mind that if your roof ever needs repairs under those solar panels the panels and their mounting racks have to be removed and then reinstalled. Make sure your roof is in great shape before mounting solar panels.


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## TookyTooker

I don't see anything wrong with having solar panels on the front of your house. Doesn't your wife think that this way you will seem more advanced and high-tech? It seems to me that you should still consider buying Inverter chargers, which can also help you increase productivity. Read more about it if you're interested.


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## Demitri.14

Are those prices correct ? 4 KW would be $4. Thats a lot less than I paid for my 2KW Generator. 

100 KW would only be $200.. That seems pretty cheap.


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## LDSreliance

Trihonda said:


> Exploits continued... we got one bid at $1.95/KW installed, by a local,company, but the gear I think might not be super high end? Not sure... the company has Done some solar roofs at a few of my neighbors, and they’ve been happy with the results.. however, another neighbor had an upstart come to their door and sell them a solar roof system. They were quoted for reportedly better quality panels and such, but slightly more expense. Additionally the sales guy and parent company were not local...
> 
> I decided to hear what they had to say, and arranged a quote. The sales guy turned out to be very nice at first, and my wife and I were actually impressed with the level of quality components compared to the first... BUT the pricing, even after steep “discounts” was $2.04/kw. These prices all factored in the tax credits, etc. despite that, my wife and we’re leaning towards this newer company. BUT we insisted on a night to think about the deal, etc.. Then the sales guy put on a high pressure “must close now” pitch. His main argument was that he lived out of state and it’d be hard to get back the next day to collect a down payment check.. so we caved and wrote a check for 50%.. but that evening I couldn’t sleep. We wound up canceling the check the next morning and nixing the deal... I think the company wasn’t a scam (from doing some research), but the lack of a local rep to maintain accountability was a major a concern.


I think you did the right thing. Grid tied solar is a long term investment. It does pay off, for almost anyone in the continental US, but it takes between 8 and 15 years depending on your location and utility rates. And the panels are warrantied for 25 years. So unless you are installing this yourself, you need to be sure that the company that you are buying this system from is going to be around and can provide any warranty support for however long that lasts.

Please keep in mind that tax credits are just itemizations you can put on your taxes. They ONLY benefit people who have a tax liability, or in other words people who owe money on taxes. If you get money back every year or you already have enough deductions with your home, kids, healthcare expenses, etc. then you will not gain any benefit from this. Yes, you can roll it over to the next year but, again, you won't benefit from it unless you owe taxes. So please don't think of it like a rebate or a cash incentive. Tesla and other installers love to show you the cost of your system and deduct the ITC from the total cost, when in reality you have to put all the money on the table for the system and then, if you are someone who owes taxes and can get a benefit, you can get a non-cash benefit later on when it comes to file taxes.

Don't fall for pressure tactics. If they are a legit business, they can collect your deposit or down payment via ACH, ETF, wire transfer, cashier check, or online payment. Having worked as a sales person in the past, I know that they are trained to put pressure on you and force you to say no, which you don't want to do. The fear of losing out on a good deal is powerful. There will always be a good deal. In fact, there will be a better deal tomorrow. So don't make a decision on the spot.


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## Maine-Marine

we sell solar stuff and are looking at lithium batteries.... lithium is 2x the cost 1/2 the weight and 10x the life span... over all at the end of the day lithium is better deal


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## Trihonda

In The end, we didnt do a roof.. but our neighbor did, with the high pressure company. He had the install scheduled for October last year, but they delayed and it didnt get installed until April of this year. I would have been clamoring ”scam” the entire time, as it seemed shady from the get go. 

it also was installed on the front of the house, and it looks like shit. It’s a patchwork of panels to account for roof angles… at least our house would have allowed solid rows of panels along the top roof line. It wouldn’t have looked THAT bad….


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## LDSreliance

That sucks. Yeah, I look at a lot of installs around here and think they look ugly as heck. Aesthetics are not top priority for the installers. And a lot of them are in funky configurations where power production is not optimized (like east-west or north facing).


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