# is this constitutional?



## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Government Goes After Woman Living "off the grid"

Check this out, apparently it is criminal to live in some places without public utilities. I actually encountered this in California as well when my landlord informed me that if I was not actively receiving city electricity they were required to evict me. Even showed me the city statute, although that was 10 years ago and I couldn't tell you what it was exactly.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

State and local governments have significant power under the Federal Constitution. I believe this would fall there.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

I'm curious if there is someone who knows law that can verify. I always understood that according to the Constitution, because we have the right to free commerce, the government cannot compel us to, or not to purchase something. This is not my area of expertise, but I think I remember reading about how requiring car insurance was a big debacle because of this, and I know it was a big part of the fight against Obama care.


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## Diver (Nov 22, 2014)

Jakthesoldier said:


> I'm curious if there is someone who knows law that can verify. I always understood that according to the Constitution, because we have the right to free commerce, the government cannot compel us to, or not to purchase something. This is not my area of expertise, but I think I remember reading about how requiring car insurance was a big debacle because of this, and I know it was a big part of the fight against Obama care.


Well, we know how both of those turned out.  Furthermore in the case of electricity you started with my impression is the requirement was to be hooked up to the grid. Is there a requirement to actually use it?


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

First let me say that I am one of those that enforces these types of laws in a major city in my area. You ask are the laws constitutional. I don't believe that anyone has tried to challenge the constitutionality of the laws here in the Commonwealth. However you have to understand that I work in a fairly densely packed city that is old. 

We do not go looking for folks living off the grid. I can tell you that for the 24 inspectors in our city that we definitely do not go looking for folks.

Have I cited folks for no electricity or no water? Yes, however the statute/law that is used is one in which the home is unfit for human habitation - i.e. in 12 degree weather there's no heat; or there's no water to carry away the human feces . In cases like these we condemn the property (in all but two cases over the last three years it's a land lord tenant dispute or the tenant is a dead beat not paying anything). 

In the last three months I've had to condemn five or six such properties. In all cases there were children involved. Now I don't really care what happens to you adults, but if you deliberately place a child's life at risk, I've got no sympathy for you what so ever.


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## Jakthesoldier (Feb 1, 2015)

Diver said:


> Well, we know how both of those turned out.  Furthermore in the case of electricity you started with my impression is the requirement was to be hooked up to the grid. Is there a requirement to actually use it?


My impression from my experience was both, if we weren't hooked up and receiving a bill we would be reported and evicted.


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## Big Country1 (Feb 10, 2014)

SARGE7402 said:


> First let me say that I am one of those that enforces these types of laws in a major city in my area. You ask are the laws constitutional. I don't believe that anyone has tried to challenge the constitutionality of the laws here in the Commonwealth. However you have to understand that I work in a fairly densely packed city that is old.
> 
> We do not go looking for folks living off the grid. I can tell you that for the 24 inspectors in our city that we definitely do not go looking for folks.
> 
> ...


Sarge, what If they have a alternative source of heat (ie. wood stove, propane heater etc.). or a alternative way of getting rid of waste (ie. outhouse, composting toilet, one of those propane toilets etc.)? Does it make a difference, or is it just because you don't have the "city" hook ups?


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## Big Country1 (Feb 10, 2014)

-There a special magistrate ruled Speronis was not guilty of not having a proper sewer or electrical system; but was guilty of not being hooked up to an approved water supply.
-No city power or water running through her house walls. Instead, she uses solar panels and treated rain water for survival.


So the lady had power, and a ways of getting water. The problem is she isn't relying on the system, and that's the REAL problem


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Doesn't much matter anymore, the US Constitution has been ripped up, spat upon, shredded and pissed on for many years. 

God Save This Great Republic


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## SARGE7402 (Nov 18, 2012)

Big Country1 said:


> Sarge, what If they have a alternative source of heat (ie. wood stove, propane heater etc.). or a alternative way of getting rid of waste (ie. outhouse, composting toilet, one of those propane toilets etc.)? Does it make a difference, or is it just because you don't have the "city" hook ups?


First you have to understand that I work in a major city and what works in the country doesn't work well at all in the city. Because a lot of our single family homes are on zero lots i.e. there is no or very little - maybe two feet - separation between homes much of what can be used in the country would not be acceptable from a life safety stand point.

As I said, we don't go looking for these types of violations - we have more than enough homes and buildings that are ready to fall down that we don't need to go looking for these kinds of violations.

And we will usually make reasonable accomodations, but when you begin to put children's lives at risk we don't have a lot of choice but to err on the side of caution.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

They can make any regulation they want. You are required to be on the system in many places. Heck they even have requirements on how many square feet your house must be if it is to small you are in violation.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

Well, based on my interpretation of the Constitution *we are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights. Among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. * No. Telling me I have to buy utilities does not wash with the last of those heretofore "inalienable" rights. As you recall, however, Justice Roberts sided with the liberals in calling Obamacare a "tax". In doing so, he claimed the government has a right to levy taxes making it the law of the land. I still call bullshit on that one. I also declare this to be equally bovine in origin.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Bureaucracies have no grey areas. The rules are in place to assure public safety and I get that. However, if someone has found an alternitive method of handling the waste, heat, and water safely then they should be allowed to conintue. Municipalities don't see it that way. Particularly large urban areas. If it's not in thier rule book then it must be against the law. As sarge said, they are undermaned and the rules simply streamline the decission making process. These rules are all local and based on the zoning of the city and conform to the standards the state sets. Each state sets it's own standards on water quality, waste removal, gas, and electrical conections. My work requires me to have contact with a lot of these groups and entities and I can tell you they have rules for every damn little thing. LOL I don't believe it is addressed on the federal level, although I could be wrong about that.


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

The Federal Constitution only states exactly what powers the states have deligated to ithe Federal government with anything else is reserved by the states themselves. Off grind power legal or not legal is not a federal case. It would be state specific or most likely county or township level. They can require public sewer or public water hook ups for instance. I own a property in a bourogh where I must maintain and pay taxes on the sidewalks but the governing municipality can alter them, plant trees and so forth ay will without my consent. If the municipality ruins them, I pay. It has nothing to do with the Constitution.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

csi-tech said:


> Well, based on my interpretation of the Constitution *we are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights. Among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. * No. Telling me I have to buy utilities does not wash with the last of those heretofore "inalienable" rights. As you recall, however, Justice Roberts sided with the liberals in calling Obamacare a "tax". In doing so, he claimed the government has a right to levy taxes making it the law of the land. I still call bullshit on that one. I also declare this to be equally bovine in origin.


I agree. I understand why the rules are in place. I don't agree with them. I call bullshit on that Obama tax as well. When it comes down to it the federal government will justify anything or any law it wants to. The government just put a gun to our heads and said you will buy this insurance.


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## csi-tech (Apr 13, 2013)

I'm sorry. I just feel that any government, Federal State, County or local only has the power we allow it to have. If they tell me I have to buy from them, I don't like it.


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## Urinal Cake (Oct 19, 2013)

With this regime, the constitution doesn't exist...


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

csi-tech said:


> I'm sorry. I just feel that any government, Federal State, County or local only has the power we allow it to have. If they tell me I have to buy from them, I don't like it.


Understood.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

csi-tech said:


> I'm sorry. I just feel that any government, Federal State, County or local only has the power we allow it to have. If they tell me I have to buy from them, I don't like it.


Sadly a couple of things usually happen;

One-Liars get elected to office and don't live up to their campaign promises that the populace voted upon. 
Two-The people willing to trade liberty for security outvote you.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

We see places where they can even tell you what color to paint your house. What style windows you must install. I could never live like that . We still have some room to do as we please here but lose more freedom each year.


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## tango (Apr 12, 2013)

'The Government cannot compel us to buy, or not buy something" ??
That was true before Obamacare, not anymore.


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## James m (Mar 11, 2014)

I don't believe the government cares what is in the Constitution anymore.
the government has endowed themselves with more rights than the rest of the population.


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

This took place in the county where I live and it started about 2 years ago. in has been settled between her and the city.


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## Arklatex (May 24, 2014)

slewfoot said:


> This took place in the county where I live and it started about 2 years ago. in has been settled between her and the city.


So did she have to get hooked up to the utilities?


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## slewfoot (Nov 6, 2013)

Arklatex said:


> So did she have to get hooked up to the utilities?


No, she won on that. Come to find out the cities biggest problem with her was not so much being hooked up to the utilities but the property was a mess and the health dept went over and found she was basically living in filth. so once she cleaned the property up, got, the lawn mowed , the interior cleaned and healthy to live in she was allowed by the court to go on with her life as long as she kept the place up.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Back many years ago liberals were up in arms over what they saw as racism in housing so they pasted laws. Then of course the wrong people started moving into their area.
Oh S. so they invented new rules and requirements that financially kept others out. They went to sleep feeling good they fought racism.
Not far from here many years ago I did contacting to build wife uncles a new house on the farm. That area went so far as to state how many inches overhang a roof had to have. They have regulation on how many and who could live there and how long a visitor could stay. They had to agree to hook up to water supply once it was run out to that area and pay the full cost. So called zoning laws have been used to keep the wrong people out for a while now.


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## Frostbite (Jan 28, 2015)

slewfoot said:


> No, she won on that. Come to find out the cities biggest problem with her was not so much being hooked up to the utilities but the property was a mess and the health dept went over and found she was basically living in filth. so once she cleaned the property up, got, the lawn mowed , the interior cleaned and healthy to live in she was allowed by the court to go on with her life as long as she kept the place up.


Glad to see the facts on this.

I thought the initial post sounded odd.


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