# SCOTUS rules on 'painless' execution



## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

They ruled 5-4 that the Constitution does not guarantee a painless execution. A bit of good news, but I think that executions should be painful. The more painful and frightening the better. They should be much more commonly occur and televised as well....



> April 01-- WASHINGTON-The Supreme Court ruled Monday that the Constitution does not guarantee a "painless death" for condemned murderers, deciding that a Missouri inmate may be executed by a lethal injection despite a rare, severe condition that could cause him to suffocate.


https://start.att.net/news/read/category/news/article/los_angeles_times-supreme_court_says_the_constitution_does_not_ensur-tca-3


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Any murderer convicted should die as his or her victim did if requested by surviving family members, if not then firing squad by default and agree with you RL, all Capitol punishment should be televised.

If you rape and murder, life will be tough for your future.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

One IMO they got right but notice the split in the vote.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

The only problem I have with capital punishment is if a mistake is made and an innocent is put to death. There should be no question as to guilt.

If you are going to execute I'm for a rope on an oak in town /city square.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

They should die exactly how they killed. No getting off with a painless and quick death after 25 years lounging around on the tax payers dime.

I could go with a Slippy pike in the town square and let them scream for a few days.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

In Alabama, we had an electric chair named, "Yellow Mama" because it was painted with yellow highway line paint. It was built by the inmates. For decades, criminals rode the thunderbolt out of this life until it was retired due to some faulty executions. Sometimes the executions went according to plan but sometimes the death would be a little more gruesome than planned.

It seemed to me that the unreliability of a quick death would enhance the desired effect of deterrence.


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Firing squad or hanging. UNTIL DEAD. Like on Young Guns..


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Mad Trapper said:


> The only problem I have with capital punishment is if a mistake is made and an innocent is put to death. There should be no question as to guilt.
> 
> If you are going to execute I'm for a rope on an oak in town /city square.


The two sad things about capital punishment:

1. Only 1 for sure knows the guilt and/or innocence, . . . the accused. At times there may be others, . . . but the accused ALWAYS knows the truth.

2. Once executed, . . . an innocent man can never be restored. If jailed, . . . he/she can some day be set free.

I'm against capital punishment as a rule, simply because of the second idea. All too many innocents have been done in here in the USA and we don't need any more.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

So painless is not a requirement on one end and tossing them in a wood chipper is out on the other end. All we need to do is find something all federal liberal judges will agree with in the middle some where. No going to happen the delays will still keep happening.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Dwight, agreed on your/my concerns.

The POSs that did parkland and sandy hook there is no doubt and why house them for > 50 years.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

dwight55 said:


> The two sad things about capital punishment:
> 
> 1. Only 1 for sure knows the guilt and/or innocence, . . . the accused. At times there may be others, . . . but the accused ALWAYS knows the truth.
> 
> ...


Until it hapens to yours? Wife or daughter dragged off and raped before some gang waste her? A growing son soon to be a young man with ideas?

What are your perimeters?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

I have no desire to make a person suffer just to punish them for their wrong-doings. Regardless of method, execution should be over quickly. The pain involved is of little importance to me. Their pain is yet to come.
I take a very sanitized approach to capital punishment. If a jury of your peers finds you guilty beyond reasonable doubt, you should not be taken out of court by a bailiff. You should be taken out of court by the undertaker, marched out of the courthouse, up the stairway of the gallows, a noose affixed, and a lever pulled. Cameras can be rolling or not, but your execution will be reported with full color pictures in the next day's press along with your crime.

The system gets it right FAR more than it gets it wrong. While some folks will indeed be put to death unjustly, that is not a sufficient argument for the removal of capital punishment, nor its delay. Get it done, remove the filth, and let all others know where their fate lies should they follow in the same path.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Kauboy said:


> I have no desire to make a person suffer just to punish them for their wrong-doings. Regardless of method, execution should be over quickly. The pain involved is of little importance to me. Their pain is yet to come.
> I take a very sanitized approach to capital punishment. If a jury of your peers finds you guilty beyond reasonable doubt, you should not be taken out of court by a bailiff. You should be taken out of court by the undertaker, marched out of the courthouse, up the stairway of the gallows, a noose affixed, and a lever pulled. Cameras can be rolling or not, but your execution will be reported with full color pictures in the next day's press along with your crime.
> 
> The system gets it right FAR more than it gets it wrong. While some folks will indeed be put to death unjustly, that is not a sufficient argument for the removal of capital punishment, nor its delay. Get it done, remove the filth, and let all others know where their fate lies should they follow in the same path.


Eye for eye. Emotions aside.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

So the dude is on death row. You deliver him a case of booze, something he really likes, bag of weed along with. you do this a few times so he just expects it. After a while. When he passes out smiling. Give him the shot , plug him in what ever he goes out happy a painless done deal.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Toefoot said:


> Eye for eye. Emotions aside.


The "life for a life, eye for an eye" teaching was not that the criminal would suffer all of the torture that lead to the end result. Rather they would suffer the end result.
If a person kills someone, whether it be by fire, drowning, a thousand cuts, etc... their punishment is simply death, not torture.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Toefoot said:


> Until it hapens to yours? Wife or daughter dragged off and raped before some gang waste her? A growing son soon to be a young man with ideas?
> 
> What are your perimeters?


First, . . . the word is parameters, . . .

But the answer is this one: Hebrews 10:30 (KJV) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

I trust the Lord, Jesus Christ, to take care of things I cannot take care of. Including, . . . if necessary, . . . vengeance / retribution.

My wife or son (have no daughter) may meet a horrendous and untimely fate, . . . and if I'm there and can, . . . yes I would do all I could to prevent it, . . . including taking the perp's life.

BUT, . . . there is no known "absolute" evidence, . . . including eyewitness testimony, . . . DNA, . . . fingerprints, . . . color video/audio, . . . that rules out ALL DOUBT.

Because there is more doubt in some than others, . . . there is no line that can be drawn.

AND, . . . WHERE DO YOU TURN, . . . when it is your daughter or son who is innocently incarcerated for decades, . . . or worse: executed for a crime they did not commit????

That ugly shoe goes both ways.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Demitri.14 (Nov 21, 2018)

I don't understand why this is even an issue. If you have ever had to euthanize a pet or have had propofol you know that the whole process CAN be completely painless. Not that I think it should, but why hasn't anyone got this lethal injection thing figured out ?


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm not a fan of killing folks. I have never looked at an image of hanging or seen a firing squad death as a good punishment. But it is a rightful punishment. You can forfeit your right to live by your actions. If it takes a death sentence to convince people to obey laws, so be it. If it takes a harsh means of death so be it. I honestly choose not to witness death for any reason.... But thats because I've seen it in many forms. many people need to come to grips with death and dying, or else it is perceived as something that "Could never happen to me" and deterrents are lessened in impact.

Once you have seen a person hang (I did...in Iraq, after the fall of saddam...even young teenage boys.) it makes you just never hope to see that again....and makes me absolutely sure that I would die fighting before I died by execution.


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## azrancher (Dec 14, 2014)

The penalty of death should be a deterrent, not the easy way out...

I vote for Drawn and Quartering (i.e. Bravehart).

Of course in the town square, and mandatory attendance for anyone old enough to walk.

*Rancher *


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

azrancher said:


> The penalty of death should be a deterrent, not the easy way out...
> 
> I vote for Drawn and Quartering (i.e. Bravehart).
> 
> ...


I like the Slippy pike idea:

But there was no time for regrets now; everything must 
yield to the execution. Lusnia stooped down and seizing 
both hips he placed them in position and called cut to the 
men who were holding the horses:

"Move on, but slowly, and together!"

The horses moved forward; the ropes became taut and pul- 
led Azya's legs. In an instant his body was dragged along 
the earth and reached the point of the stake. Then the point 
began to penetrate him and something horrible began, 
something repugnant to nature and humanity. The bones 
of the wretch separated; his body parted in two directions; in- 
describable agony, so awful as almost to verge on some mon- 
strous delight, passed through him. The stake sank deeper 
and deeper. Azya set his teeth, but could not endure it; his 
teeth were bared in a horrible grin and from his throat came 
a noise like the croak of a raven: "Ah! ah! ah!"

"Slowly!" the sergeant ordered.

Then he shouted to the men:

"Pull together! Stop! There, it is finished."

And he turned towards Azya who had suddenly become 
silent except for a deep rattle in his throat.

The horses were quickly unhitched; then the stake was set 
up and planted with the thick end in a hole prepared for it 
and earth was packed round it. The son of Tukhay Bey 
looked down on the work. He was conscious. This norrible 
species of punishment was the more awful in that the victims
of impalement sometimes lingered for three days. Azya's 
head was bowed on his breast; his lips were moving and 
smacking as if he were tasting something. He then experi- 
enced extreme faintness and saw a kind of thick grey mist 
before his eyes which seemed dreadful for some reason or 
other, and in this mist he recognized the faces of the sergeant 
and the dragoons and saw that he was on the stake and that 
the weight of his own body was sinking him deeper and 
deeper. Then he began to get numb from the feet upwards 
and less and less sensitive to pain.

Sometimes that grey mist became obscured and then he 
would blink with his sound eye in the desire to witness every- 
thing before his death. His gaze wandered persistently from 
torch to torch, for it seemed that there was a rainbow circle 
round each flame.

But his tortures were not over: presently the sergeant ap- 
proached the stake with an augur in his hand and cried to 
those about:

"Lift me up."

Two strong men hoisted him. Azya began to watch him 
narrowly, blinking, as if trying to find out what kind of man 
was climbing up to his elevation. Then the sergeant said:

"The lady knocked out one eye, and I vowed to bore out 
the other."

Then he drove the point into the pupil and gave a couple 
of twists and, when the lid and delicate skin surrounding the 
eye were wound round the thread of the augur, he gave a jerk.

Then two streams of blood gushed from Azya's eye-sockets 
and flowed down his cheeks like two streams of tears.

His face grew paler and paler. The dragoons extinguished 
the torches in silence as if ashamed that light should shine on 
such a dreadful deed, and from the moon's crescent fell faint 
silvery rays on Azya's body. His head bowed low on his 
breast; but his hands, bound to the oak staff and wrapped in 
straw dipped in tar, were pointed upwards to the sky, as if 
that son of the Orient were calling down the vengeance of the 
Turkish crescent on his executioners.

"To horse!" was heard from Pan Adam.

Before mounting, with the last torch the sergeant set fire 
to those uplifted hands of the Tartar, and the detachment 
took their way towards Yampol. Amid the ruins of Rashkov 
in the middle of the night and the desert, Azya, the son of 
Tukhay Bey, remained on the lofty stake and gleamed 
for a long time.


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

1 .45 caliber bullet. Period. Lights out and inexpensive. Don’t know if it’s pain free but probably is.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

dwight55 said:


> First, . . . the word is parameters, . . .
> 
> But the answer is this one: Hebrews 10:30 (KJV) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
> 
> ...


I respect your beliefs and faith, no issues. Please remember that evil also rely on it.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Kauboy said:


> The "life for a life, eye for an eye" teaching was not that the criminal would suffer all of the torture that lead to the end result. Rather they would suffer the end result.
> If a person kills someone, whether it be by fire, drowning, a thousand cuts, etc... their punishment is simply death, not torture.


All of what torture?

To die the way the perpetrator demanded others to die?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Toefoot said:


> All of what torture?
> To die the way the perpetrator demanded others to die?


The desire to make them feel the same pain is emotional. Their pain and suffering does not lessen the loss, nor return the lost. There is no reason for it other than sadistic joy. Such enjoyment makes one no better than the criminal who first perpetuated it.
Kill the person, and be done with them.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Kauboy said:


> The desire to make them feel the same pain is emotional. Their pain and suffering does not lessen the loss, nor return the lost. There is no reason for it other than sadistic joy. Such enjoyment makes one no better than the criminal who first perpetuated it.
> Kill the person, and be done with them.


Sadistic joy? Who said this was my intent and how did it enter the conversation?

An eye for eye does not bring any joy.

The reason for it is a deterrent, simple.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Toefoot said:


> Sadistic joy? Who said this was my intent and how did it enter the conversation?
> 
> An eye for eye does not bring any joy.
> 
> The reason for it is a deterrent, simple.


Death is the deterrent. Pain of death is not. Nobody learns anything because someone else suffers before they die. They just learn that they too will die if they do it. If the pain ends because death is the result, the pain deters nothing. Now, if we used pain in lieu of death, THAT would be a strong deterrent. The after effects would be apparent and visible to all who saw the sufferer.
This topic is specifically about the death penalty, not punishments short of it. Death is the goal. Long painful death is not a requirement, but there's no reason to go to any length to remove pain altogether.
There is no lesson to be learned nor taught by torturing someone before they die.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

I'll post this again about the Muslim slimes. I am 1/2 pole and the only thing that stopped the horde for 300 years was the poles.

All of Europe would be dead or Dhimis now.

Slippy, I've got good hardwood and plenty of it. And I've got a shovel to make the holes for pikes.

As far as non-evil Muslims, few and far between, but I've known some. But there is a lot of evil Christians too.

QUOTE=Mad Trapper;1903963]I like the Slippy pike idea:

But there was no time for regrets now; everything must 
yield to the execution. Lusnia stooped down and seizing 
both hips he placed them in position and called cut to the 
men who were holding the horses:

"Move on, but slowly, and together!"

The horses moved forward; the ropes became taut and pul- 
led Azya's legs. In an instant his body was dragged along 
the earth and reached the point of the stake. Then the point 
began to penetrate him and something horrible began, 
something repugnant to nature and humanity. The bones 
of the wretch separated; his body parted in two directions; in- 
describable agony, so awful as almost to verge on some mon- 
strous delight, passed through him. The stake sank deeper 
and deeper. Azya set his teeth, but could not endure it; his 
teeth were bared in a horrible grin and from his throat came 
a noise like the croak of a raven: "Ah! ah! ah!"

"Slowly!" the sergeant ordered.

Then he shouted to the men:

"Pull together! Stop! There, it is finished."

And he turned towards Azya who had suddenly become 
silent except for a deep rattle in his throat.

The horses were quickly unhitched; then the stake was set 
up and planted with the thick end in a hole prepared for it 
and earth was packed round it. The son of Tukhay Bey 
looked down on the work. He was conscious. This norrible 
species of punishment was the more awful in that the victims
of impalement sometimes lingered for three days. Azya's 
head was bowed on his breast; his lips were moving and 
smacking as if he were tasting something. He then experi- 
enced extreme faintness and saw a kind of thick grey mist 
before his eyes which seemed dreadful for some reason or 
other, and in this mist he recognized the faces of the sergeant 
and the dragoons and saw that he was on the stake and that 
the weight of his own body was sinking him deeper and 
deeper. Then he began to get numb from the feet upwards 
and less and less sensitive to pain.

Sometimes that grey mist became obscured and then he 
would blink with his sound eye in the desire to witness every- 
thing before his death. His gaze wandered persistently from 
torch to torch, for it seemed that there was a rainbow circle 
round each flame.

But his tortures were not over: presently the sergeant ap- 
proached the stake with an augur in his hand and cried to 
those about:

"Lift me up."

Two strong men hoisted him. Azya began to watch him 
narrowly, blinking, as if trying to find out what kind of man 
was climbing up to his elevation. Then the sergeant said:

"The lady knocked out one eye, and I vowed to bore out 
the other."

Then he drove the point into the pupil and gave a couple 
of twists and, when the lid and delicate skin surrounding the 
eye were wound round the thread of the augur, he gave a jerk.

Then two streams of blood gushed from Azya's eye-sockets 
and flowed down his cheeks like two streams of tears.

His face grew paler and paler. The dragoons extinguished 
the torches in silence as if ashamed that light should shine on 
such a dreadful deed, and from the moon's crescent fell faint 
silvery rays on Azya's body. His head bowed low on his 
breast; but his hands, bound to the oak staff and wrapped in 
straw dipped in tar, were pointed upwards to the sky, as if 
that son of the Orient were calling down the vengeance of the 
Turkish crescent on his executioners.

"To horse!" was heard from Pan Adam.

Before mounting, with the last torch the sergeant set fire 
to those uplifted hands of the Tartar, and the detachment 
took their way towards Yampol. Amid the ruins of Rashkov 
in the middle of the night and the desert, Azya, the son of 
Tukhay Bey, remained on the lofty stake and gleamed 
for a long time.[/QUOTE]


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## Camel923 (Aug 13, 2014)

Why are you sparing the criminal? The only executions that occur are for the most callus disregard for human life without remorse. Being back hangings or do something the Muslims have right and behead them or stone them to death.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Death is the deterrent. Pain of death is not. Nobody learns anything because someone else suffers before they die. They just learn that they too will die if they do it. If the pain ends because death is the result, the pain deters nothing. Now, if we used pain in lieu of death, THAT would be a strong deterrent. The after effects would be apparent and visible to all who saw the sufferer.
> This topic is specifically about the death penalty, not punishments short of it. Death is the goal. Long painful death is not a requirement, but there's no reason to go to any length to remove pain altogether.
> There is no lesson to be learned nor taught by torturing someone before they die.


People who commit crimes worthy of the death penalty do not understand the concept of empathy. You are correct.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Kauboy said:


> Death is the deterrent. Pain of death is not. Nobody learns anything because someone else suffers before they die. They just learn that they too will die if they do it. If the pain ends because death is the result, the pain deters nothing. Now, if we used pain in lieu of death, THAT would be a strong deterrent. The after effects would be apparent and visible to all who saw the sufferer.
> This topic is specifically about the death penalty, not punishments short of it. Death is the goal. Long painful death is not a requirement, but there's no reason to go to any length to remove pain altogether.
> There is no lesson to be learned nor taught by torturing someone before they die.


You and I disagree, no bigs.

Being a animal in a cage on death row for 20 years is so civilized of us. Very humane between gentlemen.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Toefoot said:


> You and I disagree, no bigs.
> 
> Being a animal in a cage on death row for 20 years is so civilized of us. Very humane between gentlemen.


And disagree we can. I simply contend that the "eye for an eye" system of justice was indeed an employment of emotional response. "I want them to feel what I felt" is pure human emotion at its darkest. I'm not claiming that's a bad thing. Just that it's emotional at its core, and I see no need for it.
I've already given my take on how long an execution should take place between "Guilty" and the "short drop with a sudden stop". The concept of death row is incongruous with my wishes.


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## Tango2X (Jul 7, 2016)

Does anyone really care that killers, child killer/molesters,, rapists, etc. suffer pain when they are put to death??
Really?


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Tango2X said:


> Does anyone really care that killers, child killer/molesters,, rapists, etc. suffer pain when they are put to death??
> Really?


it has little to do with them and more to do with us. Why would you want to make law enforcement, penal officials have to carry out such acts? The act of killing someone is a very, very difficult thing to do, even in war were its expected. To perform this act in anything but a professional way, with humanity, we risk creating people who act inhumanely but justify it because of need. We have seen this before in history....it does not bode well for us societally or individually.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Old SF Guy said:


> it has little to do with them and more to do with us. Why would you want to make law enforcement, penal officials have to carry out such acts? The act of killing someone is a very, very difficult thing to do, even in war were its expected. To perform this act in anything but a professional way, with humanity, we risk creating people who act inhumanely but justify it because of need. We have seen this before in history....it does not bode well for us societally or individually.


That's a fair point, and something I'd not considered.
How well do we think the executioner sleeps when he gets to hear the screams of the condemned in his dreams?
I used to be so bold as to think I could justifiably take a life and suffer no effects. "They got what they deserved" was my immature reasoning.
As I've pondered it over the years, I've become more resolved in my prayer to the Almighty that I never have to find out.
I will pull the trigger. But if that person dies, a part of me will die too.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Denton said:


> People who commit crimes worthy of the death penalty do not understand the concept of empathy. You are correct.


I will disagree with that. Do Americans that commit treason deserve the death penalty? War time treason?


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

RedLion said:


> I will disagree with that. Do Americans that commit treason deserve the death penalty? War time treason?


I didn't say there is no place for the death penalty and neither did @Kauboy. The point is that torture will not prevent others from doing the same thing.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

You do understand this pain thing is just a phony excuse to delay. There are countless ways to provide a painless death. How many of you have had surgery. You go in you get an IV at some point a nurse injects something in the IV. Before you know it you are out. You wake up latter that day no idea what happened. I have even had some major cutting done under local and was talking with Doc while he worked on me not one bit of pain. Ever been hurt and had someone hit you with Morphine, Boom there it is before the needle clears the skin. Last year my granddaughter had Surgery on her brain over 12 hours awake the enter time. Not one second of pain.
This whole argument is just a bunch of BS and we know it.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

Smitty901 said:


> You do understand this pain thing is just a phony excuse to delay. There are countless ways to provide a painless death. How many of you have had surgery. You go in you get an IV at some point a nurse injects something in the IV. Before you know it you are out. You wake up latter that day no idea what happened. I have even had some major cutting done under local and was talking with Doc while he worked on me not one bit of pain. Ever been hurt and had someone hit you with Morphine, Boom there it is before the needle clears the skin. Last year my granddaughter had Surgery on her brain over 12 hours awake the enter time. Not one second of pain.
> This whole argument is just a bunch of BS and we know it.


Truth is, a lot of us who have NOT been immoral like this jackass will not have the gift of a "painless" death. Often, the end just doesn't look that way even for the virtuous. He has no special entitlement.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Kauboy said:


> And disagree we can. I simply contend that the "eye for an eye" system of justice was indeed an employment of emotional response. "I want them to feel what I felt" is pure human emotion at its darkest. I'm not claiming that's a bad thing. Just that it's emotional at its core, and I see no need for it.
> I've already given my take on how long an execution should take place between "Guilty" and the "short drop with a sudden stop". The concept of death row is incongruous with my wishes.


Your reek of self righteousness is that of a Puritan.


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## StratMaster (Dec 26, 2017)

A quick death (rather than lingering and painful) is the methodology we should employ. In this manner we can administer justice (as best as we are able) while maintaining the characteristics which separate us from these animals. I don't want them to suffer... I just want them gone. This is more than sufficient.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Although I could care less how much pain the condemned feel when put to death, for they surely did not give such consideration to those they themselves condemned to death, we as a society should not lower ourselves to their level. A shot in the back of the head will suffice, two if necessary. One trial, two appeals in three years. It shouldn't take 25 years, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and countless appeals to figure it out.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Denton said:


> I didn't say there is no place for the death penalty and neither did @Kauboy. The point is that torture will not prevent others from doing the same thing.


Maybe I was not clear enough. I was posing you a question based on your comment that those that earn the death penalty do not understand empathy. I was disagreeing with this being the case for all and offering an example.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

There is a huge difference between the deterrent of death, the execution, and what we have now as a form of justice. People who are rightly convicted are kept for years on death row....keeping them in a state of hopefulness, until right before it happens...even with the thought of a last minute reprieve. Most don't really think its going to happen to them. Most go quite mad during the wait. Thy learn to bask in the notoriety of it a and even commit more crimes while waiting, against guards or others.

Giving them a torturous end, while maybe illiciting some degree of temporary/perceived satisfaction for the bereaved...I guarantee you is not. No one sees torture and says he deserves it. You may think it, but when you see it and hear it...your mind screams "Dear God let it end".

I do understand your sentiment. I understand your idea and thought behind it, and I do wish that the system was fast and efficient. Some people just need to die. But until you have seen someone being tortured...until you have heard sounds come from a human that defy your understanding...I believe we as a country should protect the innocents of those who don't know...and should never know how that feels and what it does to your soul/mind. And it should never be something we do as a form of Justice...its vengeance your asking for, but it is justice we agreed to give everyone.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

The death penalty can be a deterrent when used correctly, certainly is punishment and many would say is a measure of justice, but not complete by any means (no way to restore what is lost by the victims). 
There was a prison guard in MN, Lino Lakes Facility that was recently beat to death with a hammer by an inmate that was serving a life sentence. This turd carefully planned and executed the kill (including welding a door shut to isolate himself with the guard). This turd will not get any additional punishment and the family and community will certainly not get any justice. This turd should be terminated immediately. 
I think that "keeping them in a state of hopefulness" until it happens is a by-product of the justice system that will come when there are a number of appeals and an ineffective justice system. I do not believe that most go mad from the wait. I think that most either think that it will not really happen or that they may get off. I also do not believe that it is common by any stretch for an innocent person to be sentenced to death and I would be willing to bet that with the appeals system the chances of an innocent actually getting executed is miniscule these days with all the free legal help that high profile criminals get.
I have seen my share of death as well, from witnessing the death of a friend from a fall when I was 5, to seeing the aftermath of a person burned to death in a car at 15, to many others in my time in the military from combat action to accidents in training to drunk mistakes. It is always horrible.
I witness the deaths of veterans from time to time at work still to this day, as some go into cardiac arrest or otherwise "code" in public places at my work. Some are revived and some not.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Toefoot said:


> Your reek of self righteousness is that of a Puritan.


There's nothing self-righteous about my position.
In fact, it removes "self" altogether. Punishment is not about revenge. It is about justice.
Explain your accusation, sir.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Old SF Guy said:


> There is a huge difference between the deterrent of death, the execution, and what we have now as a form of justice. People who are rightly convicted are kept for years on death row....keeping them in a state of hopefulness, until right before it happens...even with the thought of a last minute reprieve. Most don't really think its going to happen to them. Most go quite mad during the wait. Thy learn to bask in the notoriety of it a and even commit more crimes while waiting, against guards or others.
> 
> Giving them a torturous end, while maybe illiciting some degree of temporary/perceived satisfaction for the bereaved...I guarantee you is not. No one sees torture and says he deserves it. You may think it, but when you see it and hear it...your mind screams "Dear God let it end".
> 
> I do understand your sentiment. I understand your idea and thought behind it, and I do wish that the system was fast and efficient. Some people just need to die. But until you have seen someone being tortured...until you have heard sounds come from a human that defy your understanding...I believe we as a country should protect the innocents of those who don't know...and should never know how that feels and what it does to your soul/mind. And it should never be something we do as a form of Justice...its vengeance your asking for, but it is justice we agreed to give everyone.


Many of us multiple tour veterans have experienced what you have, unnecessary death and suffering but Capitol punishment is not combat. I do believe if a person chooses to commit murder and is convicted the method that he or she used to conduct the murder should be applied to the perpetrator. With certain limitations.

The method would then be self determined by the convicted by his or her actions and not the State, To preclude that the method has no value or is not a deterrent is not valid. This is not torture in my mind.

The majority of murders are by gun, knife or beating in our area. As ugly as this subject is I do not understand societies quest to sanitize Capitol punishment to the point that it attempts to make everyone comfortable with the idea.

Capital punishment is not supposed to be comfortable or sanitary. It should be a reminder of how ugly and necessary it is.

And SF, thank you for going where others could not during your service, De oppresso libre.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Toefoot said:


> Many of us multiple tour veterans have experienced what you have, unnecessary death and suffering but Capitol punishment is not combat. I do believe if a person chooses to commit murder and is convicted the method that he or she used to conduct the murder should be applied to the perpetrator. With certain limitations.
> 
> The method would then be self determined by the convicted by his or her actions and not the State, To preclude that the method has no value or is not a deterrent is not valid. This is not torture in my mind.
> 
> ...


Let's take this from a practical standpoint, referring back to SF's thought a few posts back...
Senior Scumbag is on death row. He was convicted by a jury of his more civilized peers of being guilty of raping, beating, burning, and eventually cutting the throat of a young co-ed.
Who in civilized society is going to step up and assume the role of executioner when *that* is on their agenda?
Can anyone be expected to conduct forcible rape on the condemned? Who is willing to deliver the beating to a tied down and helpless convict? Who will burn him while he's restrained? Finally, someone has to enter, knife in hand, and slice across his jugular while his bagged and gagged head is straining to break free.

My gosh, man...
Have you really thought this through?


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Kauboy said:


> Let's take this from a practical standpoint, referring back to SF's thought a few posts back...
> Senior Scumbag is on death row. He was convicted by a jury of his more civilized peers of being guilty of raping, beating, burning, and eventually cutting the throat of a young co-ed.
> Who in civilized society is going to step up and assume the role of executioner when *that* is on their agenda?
> Can anyone be expected to conduct forcible rape on the condemned? Who is willing to deliver the beating to a tied down and helpless convict? Who will burn him while he's restrained? Finally, someone has to enter, knife in hand, and slice across his jugular while his bagged and gagged head is straining to break free.
> ...





Kauboy said:


> There's nothing self-righteous about my position.
> In fact, it removes "self" altogether. Punishment is not about revenge. It is about justice.
> Explain your accusation, sir.


Go back and reread. You brought torture into the conversation when I was not advocating for it. You brought the word revenge when no one spoke of it, you even mention the word joy when no joy was projected.

You have a narrative problem born out of being a little to self righteous in your wisdom. You did not even attempt to qualify your definition of the word torture within the context of capital punishment.

You may be a good man, someone to break bread with over a beer and enjoy conversation but please do not hang a narrative on me when none was expressed.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Toefoot said:


> Go back and reread. You brought torture into the conversation when I was not advocating for it. You brought the word revenge when no one spoke of it, you even mention the word joy when no joy was projected.
> 
> You have a narrative problem born out of being a little to self righteous in your wisdom. You did not even attempt to qualify your definition of the word torture within the context of capital punishment.
> 
> You may be a good man, someone to break bread with over a beer and enjoy conversation but please do not hang a narrative on me when none was expressed.


You miss the part were someone has to inflict upon the condemned the sentence he is given...That is another human unless you design a machine to do it...and even that is operated by a human.

The penalty is Death.... how they receive it is more a matter of how we choose to deliver it.... We can just treat it as a solemn fact of life...or we can try to make this person suffer as their victims did.... There is no justice in that. No one is better for having done it. Maybe there would be less inclination to do things...and as a deterrent maybe it would work....but I believe that for every person you deluiver this "Justice" too. There is another human who must perform that act...and that is easier said than done.


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## Old SF Guy (Dec 15, 2013)

Toefoot said:


> Go back and reread. You brought torture into the conversation when I was not advocating for it. You brought the word revenge when no one spoke of it, you even mention the word joy when no joy was projected.
> 
> You have a narrative problem born out of being a little to self righteous in your wisdom. You did not even attempt to qualify your definition of the word torture within the context of capital punishment.
> 
> You may be a good man, someone to break bread with over a beer and enjoy conversation but please do not hang a narrative on me when none was expressed.


And by the way....you come across as a condescending asshat sometimes.....Just saying....


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Toefoot said:


> Go back and reread. You brought torture into the conversation when I was not advocating for it. You brought the word revenge when no one spoke of it, you even mention the word joy when no joy was projected.
> 
> You have a narrative problem born out of being a little to self righteous in your wisdom. You did not even attempt to qualify your definition of the word torture within the context of capital punishment.
> 
> You may be a good man, someone to break bread with over a beer and enjoy conversation but please do not hang a narrative on me when none was expressed.


Well, you didn't use the word _torture_ but by suggesting the criminal die as did his victims, you are suggesting that.
@Old SF Guy perfectly explained the weight such executions would be placed on the executioners. On top of that, it would be impractical for the state to tailor executions to the specific manner by which the victim was murdered.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Old SF Guy said:


> And by the way....you come across as a condescending asshat sometimes.....Just saying....


Sometimes I wear it well, when needed. Other times I am humbled.


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## Toefoot (Jun 21, 2017)

Denton said:


> Well, you didn't use the word _torture_ but by suggesting the criminal die as did his victims, you are suggesting that.
> @Old SF Guy perfectly explained the weight such executions would be placed on the executioners. On top of that, it would be impractical for the state to tailor executions to the specific manner by which the victim was murdered.


And stand by my conviction. You shoot, get shot, you knife, get knifed, you strangle, hangman. The logistics is not complicated.


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## Mad Trapper (Feb 12, 2014)

Denton said:


> Well, you didn't use the word _torture_ but by suggesting the criminal die as did his victims, you are suggesting that.
> @Old SF Guy perfectly explained the weight such executions would be placed on the executioners. On top of that, it would be impractical for the state to tailor executions to the specific manner by which the victim was murdered.


Well I could see 100 molested kids, given 1000 BBs and a gun, each. Too deal with the molester.

Post that on social media for the creeps.

If you look at news, the Dems want pedohiles, Trannys, Don't know what I am?, to go to school with YOUR kids.

Think about that.

And the sick fers want that TAUGHT in schools. 2nd grade is a good time for the homos/trannys.

I am sorry about the moral decay of America, and Americans.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Toefoot said:


> Go back and reread. You brought torture into the conversation when I was not advocating for it. You brought the word revenge when no one spoke of it, you even mention the word joy when no joy was projected.
> 
> You have a narrative problem born out of being a little to self righteous in your wisdom. You did not even attempt to qualify your definition of the word torture within the context of capital punishment.
> 
> You may be a good man, someone to break bread with over a beer and enjoy conversation but please do not hang a narrative on me when none was expressed.


If the acts committed by the criminal upon their victims can be described as torture, and your wish is to have them suffer the same fate, by the transitive property, you are advocating torture.
I hang nothing on you that you've not openly displayed for all to see.
This isn't self-righteous. It's basic human reasoning. If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

Mis-characterizing me doesn't add anything to this discussion.


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