# Solar...problem...maybe..Help Please



## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

Hello All,
I mentioned a while back, that I had just bought some solar panels ( 16 x 325 watts mono crystal ). Anyway I decided to go ahead and hook up 8 panels as a trial , before making all the racking for 16 panels ( the overall size of the racking....26.5 feet wide by 13 feet high).
Ok... so this is what I did...I hooked up every two panel in series , so 4 sets of 2. ( I hope you know what I mean...) so 8 panels in total.
Hooked them up to my new Midnite Classic 150 Charger/solar controller.
So this is what I got, max out put 1525 watts ( so far), Does this seem normal, or a little low. Now, the way I have the panel set up , they get sun from about 10:00 to 4:00ish, with full sun for about 2.5-3 hours a day .
My batteries are always fully charged ( very happy , on solar) ...8 x 6 volt batteries set up for 48 volt system. I have 2 strings available , but just trying/testing on one string/set.
So whats wrong..or right with my set up. Is it working the way it should...or should I be getting more watts.
The inverter is a Magnum 4448 ( 4400 watts by 48 volts)
Thanks for any help you can give me .
Cheers
Brian


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Brian, What is the open voltage rating on those panels? more than 35v? If it's less than 36v I'd strongly consider running 4 panels to a string.

While it will be rare to see over 2500 watts from 8 panels this time of year I would expect to see higher than 1525 watts on a full sun low humidity day. Depending on your latitude your panels should be tilted vertically about 30 degrees. 

If your 1525 watt reading was during the end of that time period (like 3:30 or 4pm) I could see 1500watts as being a decent reading but not at noon.

Just a reminder, it sounds like you're running a lower voltage setup with 2 panels in a string but you'll need to use another charge controller to handle all 16 panels.


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## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

Hello FoolAmI,
Was hoping you'd reply. The panels I'm running are:
325watt
Impp 8.72 amps
Vmpp 37.3 volts
Usc 9.27 amps
Voc 46.0 volts

I looked at the graft ( on the classic 150)and it saids the it peaked at 2:00 ish @ the 1525 watt.
Do you think hooking them up , one at a time would help? I have lots of cable and don't mind trying it this way 
Thank for all the input.
I'm running my whole house !!! Off just the solar... Showers, pumps, light, tv , sat. Etc... What a great feeling. 
Even Though it's not at 100% yet ... It still feels like a million bucks!!!
Life is good, and getting greater by the minute!!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Without a bunch of micro-inverters to hook to each panel (allows easier testing) I'd say leave it be as you now have it. You can test each panel one at a time to see if they read within 7% of each other in similar sun conditions but probably it's more a matter of the time of year, panel orientation, and local weather. 1525 watts is nothing to sneeze at, I just wish you had a longer solar window than 3 hrs a day for full sun.

With my older 490 watt setup I've had days where it looked sunny but the power seemed a bit low. I got 538 watts peak on a day when it didn't seem as bright.

You got a great deal on a larger solar setup than the one I'm still installing. I'm no professional solar guy, had a smaller setup for years read a lot, and my larger system is still waiting for the ground mount to be delivered. Panels are still on the pallet in the barn but the inverter ect are mounted with the wiring buried out to the mount location and ready for the sub panel. Even have two 2' X 6' deep holes drilled ready for concrete and the stand. I hope to run most of the AC side wired up tomorrow but without the ground mount (mine is 27' long but only 2 panels per row) not much is going to happen here. 4480 watt in panels.

Don't forget that NEC requirements require a clearly marked power shut off within 20' of where the solar DC power enters your house, ,most counties require this shut off to be within 20' of your power meter and be accessible from the ground for firefighters.


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## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm thinking that the main wire that I bought for the scrap yard, might be at fault. I looked at and tightened all the cables tonight. But what I notice is that the cables from the scrap yard were a little corroded under the insulation ( black in color). Maybe not conducting power very well??? I'm going to test volt and amps at combiner box this weekend , just to see if there is a difference . The cables from the combiner box to the solar control is 35 feet long, so not very long.
Hope that I find a problem....sun was out today....and I topped out at 750 watts max output....not that good for 2600 watts I have installed.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Corrosion will defiantly hurt and make the wires heat up. With you only running about 74v per wire that's about 35 amps between the combiner box (8 panels at full output) so you need to be using 8 g wire with a 8 ga earth ground wire (assuming you're using THHN wire for outdoor use but no conduit to the combiner box). With all 16 panels you'll need good 4 ga wire with 6ga for the earth ground and that will basically max the 4 ga wire out (use no more than an 80 amp breaker with 4 ga THHN). If you're running the wires through conduit you'll probably need to go to 3 ga THHN for the primary wires with a 100 amp breaker. 

You'll want to use 10ga wire between the panels and the combiner box.

This all assumes you are mounting a combiner box at the panels (to combine all of the solar panel strings into 2 wires plus earth ground) and then are running the 2 heavier wires to a cut off box mounted to the side of your home (NEC required so firefighters can easily shut the system down) and then on to your charge controller (usually through a breaker on the outback panel).

I'm going to IM you my phone # if you have any questions about this or the reasons for each step. Do it wrong and burn the house and insurance will not cover.

With my smaller setup I didn't wire into the house so I only used a few fuses but connecting to the house wiring is a little different.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

quinnbrian said:


> Hello All,
> I mentioned a while back, that I had just bought some solar panels ( 16 x 325 watts mono crystal ). Anyway I decided to go ahead and hook up 8 panels as a trial , before making all the racking for 16 panels ( the overall size of the racking....26.5 feet wide by 13 feet high).
> Ok... so this is what I did...I hooked up every two panel in series , so 4 sets of 2. ( I hope you know what I mean...) so 8 panels in total.
> Hooked them up to my new Midnite Classic 150 Charger/solar controller.
> ...


Hello
I also run a Magnum 4448 inverter and after some research I am suggesting the following

You seem to be a couple hundred miles north of the Canadian border as you are getting a LOT less sunlight every day. Currently I am getting 5-6 hours a day in Montana and you are getting about 3 hours a day. That means your solar panels are getting half the power I am.

I would only guess that getting HALF of your solar panel's rated capacity would be pretty common, so a 2600w array pulling down 1525 watts should be considered normal.

If you adjust the angle of the solar panels you might squeak a bit more out of them but not much more. Optimum Tilt of Solar Panels

The sorry part of the story is that even with your additional solar panels added on you will probably need to supplement the winter months with a generator. I suggest a 13kw Onan propane powered which is quiet and very fuel efficient.

Cummins Power Generation 13kW (Warm, Natural Gas) Home Standby Generator

Good Luck


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## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

All is well.  talked to the supplier and was told, that the charger will only charge at the rate that is required to keep the batteries full. And that's why my watt reading is low. So I put the charge controller in Eq mode....and up it went...to the tune of 2150 watts. Very happy with my set up. The supplier also told me, that about 80% output is about the best your going to get, this time of year.
Just one question, how often should I Eq my batteries? once a week, or every two weeks. Going to uses the generator to do so...so I can hit them hard, to keep the plates clean. 
Thanks for all the help guys, been off grid for almost 4 years, but had no experience with solar power and solar chargers.
Cheers
Brian
Montana Farmer, I have another 8 panel (2600 watts) to put up if need be, was just testing the first 8, just to help understand and work any problems out that I might have come across.I think I'll try the 8 for the winter and see what happens, if I need to , I'll put up the other 8...but hoping to not to have to. The generator hasn't run in a little over a week  , it sounds and feels great!!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

guinnbrian, I should have noticed that you are that far north which means you'll need to tilt your panels a bit more. Look up your latitude on a map and tilt your panels roughly that angle.

Most people equalize about once a month but in your case you may not have enough power during some of the winter months.

Link is to the website FeildLines which is all about RE energy and this is their page on equalizing How Often do you Equalize your Batteries ?


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

quinnbrian said:


> All is well.  talked to the supplier and was told, that the charger will only charge at the rate that is required to keep the batteries full. And that's why my watt reading is low. So I put the charge controller in Eq mode....and up it went...to the tune of 2150 watts. Very happy with my set up. The supplier also told me, that about 80% output is about the best your going to get, this time of year.
> Just one question, how often should I Eq my batteries? once a week, or every two weeks. Going to uses the generator to do so...so I can hit them hard, to keep the plates clean.
> Thanks for all the help guys, been off grid for almost 4 years, but had no experience with solar power and solar chargers.
> Cheers
> ...


It really depends on what demand you have but IMO put the other panels up NOW as you will need them when the snow starts falling and you get a week of cloudy skies, unless your daily consumption is very very low you will not survive with the initial 8 solar panels without a generator. Of course if you have a lot of propane powered appliances that will make a difference.

FoolAmI good reply and I also equalize once a month, although I bump that up in the spring as I can't usually equalize in the Nov-Feb months because of lack of sun. It does vary depending on the year.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Montana Rancher said:


> It really depends on what demand you have but IMO put the other panels up NOW as you will need them when the snow starts falling and you get a week of cloudy skies, unless your daily consumption is very very low you will not survive with the initial 8 solar panels without a generator. Of course if you have a lot of propane powered appliances that will make a difference.
> 
> FoolAmI good reply and I also equalize once a month, although I bump that up in the spring as I can't usually equalize in the Nov-Feb months because of lack of sun. It does vary depending on the year.


I think gunnbrian has been doing without grid power for a while so he probably has alternative energy sources. I'm in GA so the TriStar controller (smaller old system) I've been using does it automatically every 30 good sun days and with the new system I'm putting in I'll do the same since I've got good sun and a long solar window most days.

My new system (still installing) will have good sun 7 am until 3:30 during the winter. I kind of wish I'd moved the panel site another 40' to the east to maximize the late day sun. In mid summer I've got good sun until 6pm.


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## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

Before the solar set up...
My daily regiment is/was , in the summer charge the batteries, every-other day with the generator ( for about 3 hours) in the winter ...every day.
So fuel cost was very high. About $75.00 a week in the winter months and 1/2 that in the summer. I didn't have the money ( all of it for the solar panel and charger/controller) and It was easier to just buy gas/diesel ....one week at a time. So almost 4 years latter ......I had saved up the $4500.00 for the solar , so if I have a couple days...or weeks where I have to uses the generator ... a little , I'm good with that.
I don't think I'm going to have time to build the new rack for all the panel, until spring ( and the money that I'm going to need, to do so.)
Cheers
Brian


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Installing the panel racks and panels was a lot of work but not too hard to figure out how to do. Installing all of the wiring and staying N.E.C. code compliant is a major pain in the rump. I can see why the solar installers wanted about $7000 in labor cost to do the work.

At this point I'm about 85% done with the job. I just hope it all works when I throw the switch. I've got an electrician coming by next week to certify the work before I throw the switches since I'd prefer to keep my home's insurance. This is the most complicated wiring job I've ever done.

The outdoor switch boxes are required so the fire department can shut down the system. The white pipe is for the battery box vent fan that comes on only when the batteries are charging.


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## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

FoolAmI said:


> Installing the panel racks and panels was a lot of work but not too hard to figure out how to do. Installing all of the wiring and staying N.E.C. code compliant is a major pain in the rump. I can see why the solar installers wanted about $7000 in labor cost to do the work.
> 
> At this point I'm about 85% done with the job. I just hope it all works when I throw the switch. I've got an electrician coming by next week to certify the work before I throw the switches since I'd prefer to keep my home's insurance. This is the most complicated wiring job I've ever done.
> 
> ...


Looks great, nice work.....enjoy!


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Brian, How have you got your panels mounted? My rack required 2 holes 24" wide and 6' deep (local tree guy with a skidsteer drilled them). Filling them with concrete took all day and 64 bags of concrete plus lots of water and Advil... kicked my butt.

Getting older is a bitch. When I was 16 that much work was fairly easy.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Here in the US since the inverter can be run by both the AC fed side and the DC fed side we have to have cutoffs outside for both sides (2 smaller boxes in the pictures) along with a cutoff for the panel input to the inverter (3rd box in pictures).

I hope Canada is more reasonable in their electrical requirements.


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## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

My panels are mounted on the roof, right know (8 of them), held on with 4 bolts each, per panel to the frame work, but I want a pole mount, that will move with the sun....lots of money....next year!! LOL
I run my panel to a combiner box, that has breaker on each set of panels, that runs to a main power cut off switch,and main solar breaker , and battery bank breaker. My set up is off grid, no tie in , so the main power disconnect, is not required, by law....but I like having it, and so would any firefighter if need be.
I'll try to get some pics...I'm not that good at it, and will have to figure out how to post.
Since my posting on 09/28/2015, I've had to run my generator 3 time...not bad ,we've had alot of rain,and low light weather. The highs I've pull so far is 2200 watts (there is 2600 watts in panels)...so not bad for fall in Ontario, Canada. The most power, that shows (in one day) produced or produce because it was needed??? was 5.5 KW.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

You'll put out more power in the summer months and 2200 watts for 2-5 hrs is still a lot less generator running. 
The ground mounting system I used (Schletter Ibeam mount) cost $1949 so ground mounting is expensive and required 2 super deep (6' deep) holes and a 72 bags of concrete so considering the great price you got for your solar equipment you may want to just stick with the roof mount, just add the other 8 panels next Spring.

By being totally off-grid your labor and wire savings for avoiding the 2 extra cutoff boxes is a huge bonus.


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## chocks141 (Nov 21, 2015)

Part of it could be that, with only 8 batteries, by the time you get full sun, the batteries are already nearly charged and you just don't need over 1500 watts.
The other part is the panel rating of 325 is max volt (vmpp)37.3 x max amp (imp)8.72=325.25 watts. Good panel usually only see 60% to 70% efficiency, or about 200 watts per panel 8x200=1600, so the 1525 is not really out of line.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Good point, I also have a smaller battery bank (395 amp/hr) and on a sunny morning I may see it get up to 60 amps charge at 10am but the batteries are usually 90% charged by 11 and the charge controller switches from bulk charge to absorption only needing 5-12 amps to keep the voltage in the absorb range (about 58v).

Currently while I'm tied to the grid I've disconnected the inverter from the grid and running most of the house on the solar setup. The only things on the grid are the clothes dryer, electric stove, and HVAC system which rarely runs except during the summer. Toaster oven, microwave, well pump, and hair dryer are on the solar system.

In the morning when the batteries are about 80% SOC the well pump can trip a low voltage warning but beyond that the system is covering most of my electrical needs even on cloudy days (I wash clothes and run the dishwasher on sunny days).


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## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

My generator started going a little "off"...gas pieces of garbage....
About two years ago I started rebuilding a Lister SR2 (1800rpm)and put a 10KW generator head on it, I install/set it up about a week ago...should have done it along time ago!! It burn 1/3 of a gallon of diesel an hour. Should be the last generator I have to install, if it needs another rebuild ( in my time) no problem...but I doubt it, unless something goes south.


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## 8301 (Nov 29, 2014)

Lister's tend to last forever after you clean out all the junk machining scraps during the 1st oil change. Too bad the EPA has banned new ones.


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## quinnbrian (Mar 6, 2014)

Not in Canada  there still selling off shore , remakes and some of them are pretty good , form what i've heard.


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