# The KA-BAR and the Fairbairn-Sykes



## rice paddy daddy

A good read, for those interested in combat proven fighting knives.
Disclaimer - I own two KA-BARS (one is WWII), but no F-S's.

The KA-BAR and the Fairbairn-Sykes: two fighting children of different philosophies | HROARR


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## warrior4

Great article and a good read. I personally love my trusty KA-BAR. Anytime I conduct a bug out drill or am heading into the woods for a length of time it's on my hip. It's just comforting to have a solid piece of dependable steel.


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## Prepared One

I like the KA-BAR as well. excellent quality. I have them in all BOB's and GHB'.


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## Boss Dog

Good article, I have a Camillus copy of the MK2 which I like a lot.


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## Slippy

Very good article, thanks RPD. I've never used KA-BAR to fight but it's cut a few things that I needed to cut.


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## PCH5150

Great article, I love reading the history of these things!


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## rice paddy daddy

Slippy said:


> Very good article, thanks RPD. I've never used KA-BAR to fight but it's cut a few things that I needed to cut.


I carried one in Vietnam, and Praise God I never had to use it for its intended purpose.
The KA-BAR excelled at all the mundane chores a soldier needed to perform. 
Mine was a Camillus I got from a Marine supply sergeant. I left it behind with a buddy when I came home.


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## SOCOM42

Would never want to get into a knife fight, I have three, two are about 25 years old, the third is a marine issue from WW2, 
My father in law used it to kill about eight japs on Guadalcanal at the battle of the Tenaru, he is written in Marine history for that night.
He was nicknamed Kbar after that. he was a squad leader, but carried a BAR.
The Kbar is a utility knife where the Fairbairn/Sykes is a fighting Dirk only IMO. They are outlawed in this state.


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## MisterMills357

I had two K-Bars, made by Camillus, and they get my vote, they were as strong as a knife gets, and built to kill. 
The Fairbairn-Sykes had some weak points, and could break; and they were daggers, which limited them in my view. 
However, I had a Gerber, before I had the K-Bar, and it's no slouch. 
(If it seems like I am dismissing the Fairbairn, I am. To add further insult, I would take a Navy, or Air Force survival knife over it.)

This is my pick, because it is an excellent design, the K-Bar.
View attachment 17658

I would take this Gerber MK-II over a Fairbairn-Sykes any day, it is a better design and execution. It will penetrate like all get out, it is a stabber more than a slasher, but it will cut nicely, and it is sharp.
View attachment 17650


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## M118LR

The term fighting is stretched a little when discussing the MK2. Power moves like slashing and thrusting, normally from an unopposed position (ambush), along with general utility field work are what the MK2 is best suited for. For true blade work, think fencing in miniature, the balance and tip speed of the Fairbairn can be unstoppable when used in Close Quarters. (at arms length a punch is effective, nose to nose the thumb is a superior weapon) 

Perhaps I am still conflicted, as my EDC folder is a SOG PE (rough Fairbairn style) yet my field belt knife is the updated D2 Extreme Version of the MK2? Still, either seems to be a better selection than a BK2 in a phone booth battle. JMHO.


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## NotTooProudToHide

A wise man once said the best way to win a knife fight is don't get into a knife fight. A wiser man once said always bring a gun to a knife fight.


With that logic my vote would go to the K-bar since it has far more utility than a dirk but I would take a Kukri over both.


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## SOCOM42

I will take the Kbar as it is what I carried, better utilitarian piece.

I have a bent blade also, good for some stuff but too big for other chores, and I don't intend to fight with either.

.As long as I have ammo, the gun will do the job, if I run out, I die, too old to do anything else.


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## M118LR

Does it matter what I have done, or what I say you should do? 
But if I ask what you have done with a Kukri, how much weight do you feel you can impart on those that have done little with either a MK2 or Fairbrairn in thier hands? 
NTPtoH, could you tip the scales of have done vice might do in-order to effectively convince those that haven't even considered the reality of MUST DO TO SURVIVE? I value your opinion, but how many will you lead to certain destruction by your untempered opinion?


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## NotTooProudToHide

M118LR said:


> Does it matter what I have done, or what I say you should do?
> But if I ask what you have done with a Kukri, how much weight do you feel you can impart on those that have done little with either a MK2 or Fairbrairn in thier hands?
> NTPtoH, could you tip the scales of have done vice might do in-order to effectively convince those that haven't even considered the reality of MUST DO TO SURVIVE? I value your opinion, but how many will you lead to certain destruction by your untempered opinion?


I don't have your flair for the dramatic but I think in a survival situation a knife is a tool. It can be used as a weapon but lets be honest if it comes down to the only thing keeping you alive against an enemy is your knife then something has gone terribly wrong. I haven't served in the military, the only time I've carried any kind of knife other than a pocket knife is when I hunt, or camp. Sometimes that involves a little bit of walking, most of the time it doesn't. I think a kurki has far more value than a K-Bar or a dirk because first and foremost it combines the usefulness of a small axe, large knife, and sometimes even a machete. True, each one of those tools individually can perform its job better than the Kukri but if you carry the Kukri you don't have to carry the other 3. Plus if you get one from Kukri house or Himalaya exports you get a Chamack to maintain the blade in the field and a Karda for jobs that require more detailed knife work. Again, this is just my personal preference, I don't claim to be an expert, and it frankly would shock the hell out of me if somebody decided based on my post alone that a kukri is the best knife for them.

Also, this is what I consider to be the best knife righting technique thats out there.


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## M118LR

NotTooProudToHide, Mr Jones technique is without doubt effective. Is it a flair for the dramatic if Uncle Sam equips you with nothing more than an MK2 and sends you into the mangroves that Charlie Owns, while charlie has every Automatic toy that Mother Russia has ever crafted?

So about that if the only thing keeping you alive against your enemy is an MK2, and yes this was real time serving in Combat within the Military,.........

Long,Long,Long,Long,Long ago on a continent far,far,far away; folks served before they invented light-sabers and they still were required to complete America's vital missions.

Contemplation: 




All I can do is just shake my head, perhaps I feel your experience in this regard is theoretical.


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## NotTooProudToHide

M118LR said:


> NotTooProudToHide, Mr Jones technique is without doubt effective. Is it a flair for the dramatic if Uncle Sam equips you with nothing more than an MK2 and sends you into the mangroves that Charlie Owns, while charlie has every Automatic toy that Mother Russia has ever crafted?
> 
> So about that if the only thing keeping you alive against your enemy is an MK2, and yes this was real time serving in Combat within the Military,.........
> 
> Long,Long,Long,Long,Long ago on a continent far,far,far away; folks served before they invented light-sabers and they still were required to complete America's vital missions.
> 
> Contemplation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All I can do is just shake my head, perhaps I feel your experience in this regard is theoretical.


I'm not sure if you're aware or not but the Nepalese Ghurka's have been using the Kukri as a weapon of war to great effect for a pretty long time.

But shake your head if you want thats fine it doesn't bother me. I don't plan on getting into any knife fights or taking any of my weapons on a long death march any time soon.


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## SOCOM42

During the Korean War, the Gurkhas use to Start a campfire and sit around it in full view of the PLA and the NKA, they would send in troops to eliminate 

the stupid Gurkhas.

No shots were fired by either side, far out from the fire a security perimeter was set up and they slit the throats of all the slopes.

They then buried the dead and the whole thing started over again.


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## NotTooProudToHide

SOCOM42 said:


> During the Korean War, the Gurkhas use to Start a campfire and sit around it in full view of the PLA and the NKA, they would send in troops to eliminate
> 
> the stupid Gurkhas.
> 
> No shots were fired by either side, far out from the fire a security perimeter was set up and the slit the throats of all the slopes.
> 
> They then buried the dead and the whole thing started over again.


I seem to recall a story from the Afghanistan conflict where a Gurkha squad was sent to eliminate a senior Taliban leader and bring back proof that he was dead. After they took the dude more enemy combatants showed up and the Gurkha's didn't have time to finger print the corpse so the squad leader took his kukri, chopped the head off, and brought that back as proof.

Actually I just found a link. Gurkha who beheaded Taliban soldier in Afghanistan battle cleared to return to duty | Daily Mail Online


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## M118LR

I'm not sure that you are aware of your status in the Nepalese Ghurka's? (Have you even smoked a Ghurka Cigar?) I was only questioning why your noncombatant opinion, of what the perfect implement for hand to hand combat was, should out weigh folks that served in combat like rice paddy daddy? But I do believe that there are many lemmings that should march to the beat of your drum, so expound upon the merits of the Kukri. Just don't question why others require you to post real world experience prior to genuflecting to your speculation. (Day Dreams) JMHO.


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## NotTooProudToHide

M118LR said:


> I'm not sure that you are aware of your status in the Nepalese Ghurka's? (Have you even smoked a Ghurka Cigar?) I was only questioning why your noncombatant opinion, of what the perfect implement for hand to hand combat was, should out weigh folks that served in combat like rice paddy daddy? But I do believe that there are many lemmings that should march to the beat of your drum, so expound upon the merits of the Kukri. Just don't question why others others require you to post real world experience prior to genuflecting to your speculation. (Day Dreams) JMHO.


You forget that you don't have to be a military veteran to know what your talking about when it comes to good outdoors gear, survival gear, knives, or guns. You asked for my real world experience, I told you that I camp and hunt aka I spend time outdoors, in the woods with the very knife that I said was my preference. Sorry but I don't have a story where I was lost in the wilderness with no ammunition and was being stalked by a bear and a squad of enemy commando's and all I had to defend myself was my trusty kukri. I also wasn't critical towards whatever choices RPD or anybody else on this forums makes gear wise, its your skin, your preference, your business. I simply thought we where having an open discussion so I brought in another view point, sorry if that along with my lack of military experience bothers you.

If you really served then thanks for your service but that doesn't make you any better than I am or anybody else is on this forum so please get off your high horse.


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## M118LR

We all have horses to ride cowboy, so I was just wondering when was the last time you did 8 seconds in Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Iran, Panama, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, Bosnia, or Afghanistan? Could you please be explicit to the camping, survival, and outdoor gear you utilized when spending time in the outdoors/woods during your recreational activity. I would feel so enlightened. 

About that if I really served, I feel blessed that you almost Thanked Me for the time that I served for everyone in this the Land that I Love. (but remember that I was happy to serve for those that matter most to me) I consider it a privilege. So if you have questions about my Service...............................................................

Perhaps I forgot that the article posted was a theoretical exercise. Sorry NTPTH.


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## stevekozak

M118LR said:


> The term fighting is stretched a little when discussing the MK2. Power moves like slashing and thrusting, normally from an unopposed position (ambush), along with general utility field work are what the MK2 is best suited for. For true blade work, think fencing in miniature, the balance and tip speed of the Fairbairn can be unstoppable when used in Close Quarters. (at arms length a punch is effective, nose to nose the thumb is a superior weapon)
> 
> Perhaps I am still conflicted, as my EDC folder is a SOG PE (rough Fairbairn style) yet my field belt knife is the updated D2 Extreme Version of the MK2? Still, either seems to be a better selection than a BK2 in a phone booth battle. JMHO.





M118LR said:


> Does it matter what I have done, or what I say you should do?
> But if I ask what you have done with a Kukri, how much weight do you feel you can impart on those that have done little with either a MK2 or Fairbrairn in thier hands?
> NTPtoH, could you tip the scales of have done vice might do in-order to effectively convince those that haven't even considered the reality of MUST DO TO SURVIVE? I value your opinion, but how many will you lead to certain destruction by your untempered opinion?





M118LR said:


> NotTooProudToHide, Mr Jones technique is without doubt effective. Is it a flair for the dramatic if Uncle Sam equips you with nothing more than an MK2 and sends you into the mangroves that Charlie Owns, while charlie has every Automatic toy that Mother Russia has ever crafted?
> 
> So about that if the only thing keeping you alive against your enemy is an MK2, and yes this was real time serving in Combat within the Military,.........
> 
> Long,Long,Long,Long,Long ago on a continent far,far,far away; folks served before they invented light-sabers and they still were required to complete America's vital missions.
> 
> Contemplation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All I can do is just shake my head, perhaps I feel your experience in this regard is theoretical.





M118LR said:


> I'm not sure that you are aware of your status in the Nepalese Ghurka's? (Have you even smoked a Ghurka Cigar?) I was only questioning why your noncombatant opinion, of what the perfect implement for hand to hand combat was, should out weigh folks that served in combat like rice paddy daddy? But I do believe that there are many lemmings that should march to the beat of your drum, so expound upon the merits of the Kukri. Just don't question why others require you to post real world experience prior to genuflecting to your speculation. (Day Dreams) JMHO.


It is always amusing when John Rourke joins the discussions........


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## M118LR

stevekozak said:


> It is always amusing when John Rourke joins the discussions........


It must seem that way stevekozak, but we can discuss this again after you researched the contributions of UDT 11,12, and 13 to the War effort in the Delta or operations within the RSSZ. Perhaps there might even be mention of Smokey Stover within the John Rouke Tribunals. :lol:


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## NotTooProudToHide

M118LR said:


> We all have horses to ride cowboy, so I was just wondering when was the last time you did 8 seconds in Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Iran, Panama, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, Bosnia, or Afghanistan? Could you please be explicit to the camping, survival, and outdoor gear you utilized when spending time in the outdoors/woods during your recreational activity. I would feel so enlightened.
> 
> About that if I really served, I feel blessed that you almost Thanked Me for the time that I served for everyone in this the Land that I Love. (but remember that I was happy to serve for those that matter most to me) I consider it a privilege. So if you have questions about my Service...............................................................
> 
> Perhaps I forgot that the article posted was a theoretical exercise. Sorry NTPTH.


Your a troll plain and simple. Your posts contain almost no original information outside of what can be found on Wikipedia after a quick google search along with a combination of "I'm a former navy frogman", "you didn't serve so you know nothing", "how many tours of duty did you do", and finally, my favorite, I killed a tiger with my K-Bar in Korea


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## M118LR

NotTooProudToHide said:


> Your a troll plain and simple. Your posts contain almost no original information outside of what can be found on Wikipedia after a quick google search along with a combination of "I'm a former navy frogman", "you didn't serve so you know nothing", "how many tours of duty did you do", and finally, my favorite, I killed a tiger with my K-Bar in Korea


Would you care to share all the campaign ribbons/medals you have earned from all the Military Operations you have participated in NotTooProudToHide? 
No, I shot a tiger along a riverbank in Southeast Asia, then I stabbed it twice. If your going to rant at least get it right! 
If there isn't anything published NotTooProudToHide, I'm under contract not to tell you. But you have no concept of what you have just been told. 
If you listened more and prattled less you could easily figure out how many "Tours" I served just by the listing of operations I divulged on the Veterans Section of this forum. So other than Math, Grammar, and a distinct lack of humility (Did I say that? That's really saying something) did it ever occur to you that someone needed to make History for others to write about it?


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## New guy 101

M118LR said:


> NotTooProudToHide, Mr Jones technique is without doubt effective. Is it a flair for the dramatic if Uncle Sam equips you with nothing more than an MK2 and sends you into the mangroves that Charlie Owns, while charlie has every Automatic toy that Mother Russia has ever crafted?
> 
> So about that if the only thing keeping you alive against your enemy is an MK2, and yes this was real time serving in Combat within the Military,.........
> 
> Long,Long,Long,Long,Long ago on a continent far,far,far away; folks served before they invented light-sabers and they still were required to complete America's vital missions.
> 
> Contemplation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All I can do is just shake my head, perhaps I feel your experience in this regard is theoretical.


You know this is about the 4th time you have reference your lone excursions into enemy territory in a place far away, armed with nothing but a knife....

As a former military guy I have to question some of your assertions. I hate saying it...but I think your either completely full of shit...or completely insane....as no one goes maneuvering deep inside enemy terrain with just a knife....not since Rambo lost all his shit when he got hung up on that jump ...but he at least had a knife and a bow.... I will save any follow up and be happy to discuss DD214's with you for a later time.
I will be happy to say I'm mistaken if so...but your not talking the talk......at least it sounds very foreign to me.


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## M118LR

Want to start with all your knowledge of the RSSZ,Delta, Sea Float, South China Sea, UDT 11,12,13, or am I still talking in a foreign tongue New guy 101? Any Veterans that would care to Translate this into Millennium speak please feel free.

Which of the multiple DD214's did you care to discuss?


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## Boss Dog

If I have to read about your creds and rambo exploits anymore, I think my head will explode.


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## M118LR

Sorry Boss Dog, way to many folks that can't conceive of the reality of seriously Old Navy.


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## Boss Dog

I AM OLD NAVY. I was attached to the SEALs for a couple years, I KNOW what goes on.


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## M118LR

Boss Dog said:


> I AM OLD NAVY. I was attached to the SEALs for a couple years, I KNOW what goes on.


That's interesting. Ever get any individual training from a guy named Mike Echanis? He did a little hand to hand and blade techniques during the mid 70's.

Not going to get into class swapping on the open airwaves Boss Dog.


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## Montana Rancher

I have 1 Ka-Bar and it is a really good knife.

But..

You knew this was coming from me.

A better skill would be to know how to sharpen a knife, spend your money on that skill before you get a high quality blade that will eventually dull and you can't get it up again.

SO unless you know what you are doing, buy $100 worth of sharpening supplies and learn how to use them before you buy a $100 knife with no freeking clue on how to keep it up.

In summary

A good sharpening system with a $20 knife is better than a $100 dollar knife with no way to sharpen it.

I hope that makes sense.

Edit

SO if you want a basic introduction to sharpening here is a youtube video I posted over 4 years ago in a 3 part series that might help. So far about 4/5th of people like it and it has about a 1/4 million views.

I really don't give a shit about the reviews, everyone has a method for sharpening a knife and what I posted works for me. I'm used to teaching people so I tend to be thorough.


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## rice paddy daddy

As an old veteran, I have hung around with other veterans for almost 50 years. Ranging from finance clerks to Airborne Rangers. 
As the secretary of several Vietnam Veterans of America chapters over the last 35 years, I was, and still am, responsible for keeping each chapter member's DD-214 on file. After first ascertaining they even qualify for membership.
Over the years I have seen literally hundreds upon hundreds of these documents. And you know what? The real heroes don't talk about it.
I know who holds DSC's and Silver Stars and Bronze Stars and Purple Hearts because I have seen the DD-214's. I know who was a Colonel and who was a Corporal. But those around them don't, because they don't make a big deal about it.


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## tango

Mii8LR,
a couple questions--

Do you know what a DD 214 is?
Why would you have multiple DD214's??


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## SOCOM42

I have only one.
There is a little box in the bottom right, IIRC, on mine there is a code RE1 in that box.
It may be on a guard separation paper, not sure, all mine were lost after I moved to the country.
Mother did keep all the awards I was given, my daughter now has them along with her grandfathers silver, bronze and purple hearts from WW2.
Daughter found mine when we were cleaning out the house after my brother died.
They were left in my house, and I think my mother threw out things she had no idea about.
That was over 40 years ago that I moved, more like 50 since I looked at those documents.
That little RE1 is very important to the military, says a lot about you.


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## rice paddy daddy

SOCOM42 said:


> I have only one.
> There is a little box in the bottom right, IIRC, on mine there is a code RE1 in that box.
> 
> That little RE1 is very important to the military, says a lot about you.


On mine, which is the version adopted on 1 July 66, it is in Box 15, about halfway down on the right margin. Mine is also marked RE-1.
(I just now pulled out a copy to check)
Also, Box 13a says Honorable.


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## SOCOM42

rice paddy daddy said:


> On mine, which is the version adopted on 1 July 66, it is in Box 15, about halfway down on the right margin. Mine is also marked RE-1.
> (I just now pulled out a copy to check)
> Also, Box 13a says Honorable.


Mine was issued in 1963, also says honorable.


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## tango

Mine says RE-R1
Honorable of course


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## Medic33

well both are fighting knives - one does has more uses (the kbar) as a field knife in my experiences but they are both knives and used to cut and stab.
entering the battlefield with just a knife and only a knife -you are either really stupid or truly have a wish to die at the enemy's hands, no excuses period if your commander sent you that way with only that tool then again your either a blind fool or he wanted you gone.
Fairbairn-he was a bad azz and Sykes was an expert profession knife fighter-the knife they came out with is for dirty work up close.
the K-bar -is a proven utility/combat knife and like some others I have used it and prefer it to a single purpose tool like the F-S knife.
now the kukri that is a whole nother animal in a league of it's own it is hard to breathe if you head is missing.
and what my dd214 says is my business not yours -theirs -or anyones. 
I was honorable discharged on all of them even my last when I retired.
my rank was e-1 nothing
and
my job was fire watch on the latrines.


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## New guy 101

Damn....Were'd he go?!?!?! Guess he's trying to figure out a way to explain the multiple DD-214's statement....

Or slyly reconnoitering his neighborhood with a knife in his teeth...just waiting....hoping.....praying....for someone to notice him...so he can kill them.

Cause you know...back in the Delta....Charlie would slip outa a tree with a RPK and shoot ya dead if I hadn't a kilt him with my Bowie for you......


Doing things that ye lesser forms of life know not of...being the stuff that real Heroes actually aspire to be....

Jiminy cricket what a load of Shite!!!


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## M118LR

Gentleman, the Navy issues a DD214 each time you separate for immediate reenlistment, they also issue a DD214 upon retirement. If you have never reenlisted, it is normal to only have one DD214.

Just a excerpt on the Underwater Demolition Teams:
" Vietnam[edit]
The Navy entered the Vietnam War in 1958, when the UDTs delivered a small watercraft far up the Mekong River into Laos. In 1961, Naval advisers started training the South Vietnamese UDT. These men were called the Liên Đoàn Người Nhái (LDNN), roughly translated as the "soldiers that fight under the sea."
The UDT also carried out hydrographic surveys in South Vietnam's coastal waters.[19]
Later, the UDTs supported the Amphibious Ready Groups operating on South Vietnam's rivers. UDTs manned riverine patrol craft and went ashore to demolish obstacles and enemy bunkers. These Detachments operated throughout South Vietnam, from the Mekong Delta (Sea Float), The Parrot Beak and French canal AO's through I Corps and the Song Cui Dai Estuary south of Danang"

Those that served in the Navy's "Silent Service" probably have a better understanding of what items where of General Issue to UDT Frogmen. If the hydrographic crew was large enough, then the Senior man would be issued a 9 mm submachinegun. If it was just a couple of "Swim Buddy's" odds are they where only armed with MK2's, a couple of 35 mm Single Reflex Camera's, and s##tcan full of High Resolution B&W film. You could say that the WWII Frogmen started the take nothing but pictures, don't even leave footprints philosophy, that later became one of the hallmarks of the UDT's.

About that truly stupid? The average Military Unit lost at least 1 of every 15 members in Nam. All the Underwater Demolition Teams combined lost less than 15 members for the entire Conflict. So from a survival aspect: swimmers trunks, duck feet, mask, and MK2 clearly made Nam far more survivable than any Fully Automatic Small Arm.

Now about the UDT changes from USMC H2H Doctrine. Mike E. was just one of many that took H2H to another level within the Navy. But by the time I got out you needed to spend a little time beneath a Patriot Missile Launcher in Tel Aviv to keep up with the most effective H2H Training hitting the Battlefield".

But I am speaking to those who have little concern, so I grow long winded and boorish. Ancient History like the use of the Fairbairn & MK2 aren't even part of the curriculum of Today's Warrior.

Excerpt from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_Demolition_Team


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## New guy 101

I honestly dislike calling you out like this but typically Non service members let things slide when its coming from former service members and we need to police up after ourselves.
Again there fella, I ain't saying you ain't got a DD-214 and I ain't saying you do. I wasn't in the Navy so I can't confirm your statement. But what I will say is that you have made up for all those years of "silent" service by being so boisterously boastful, and equally condescending towards everyone else, as though your the only one to have ever done anything. 

It comes across as very ONLINE COMMANDO-ISH. 

Like I said...if you wanna swap DD-214's I will give you respect due to you for your service...but IMO, your conduct and comments here gives me nothing but an internal wincing feeling at how non service members must see us.... folks typically lump service members into a singular grouping... despite all you may have done...I don't really care to be lumped into a category with a braggart... that's why I spoke out...

And to give you a little insight into who I am...I wasn't Navy, but Dick Marcincko attended my award ceremony..and I knew Chris-tine Beck...when she was a he.
Briefed several times to Adm McCraven, and Gen McCrystal before him.

But in all my posts you don't see me chest thumping and squalling...who da man! At the forum members.

Lighten up on the bravado and just talk about what you know....not tell us how much we don't know.....


My 2 cents there... shipmate


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## M118LR

New guy 101, it isn't your lack of knowledge/experience that taints any desire I might have to garnish your respect.

Submariners serve in the Navy's "Silent Service". With much respect they are commonly refereed to as "Bubblehead's" in Sailor's Lexicon.

Just another example of of an overindulgent youth failing to research the innuendo of actual real world circumstances. Who you have rubbed elbows with is of no consequence, who has taken the time to search you out so that those of particular note race across the parade ground to be first in line to take selfies with you, that would be Name Dropping! 

When I was rubbing elbows with Bin Laden he was a Freedom Fighter, not to mention that we needed to deliver many copies of the Koran and a couple of tractor parts, Local legion and rallying point for the Battle against Commie Aggression. But perhaps my indoctrination of the man that trained the man that shot Bin Laden accounted for the lack of concern applied to deeds gone bye. 

About your 2 cents, .................................

You have to be in the same boat to be a shipmate New guy 101. When I clear all the hurdles to divulge simple experiences and you think that it is chest thumping & squalling, all I can ask is how much time you have shared with others along the beach on the Strand? I don't remember you getting wet and sandy beside me, nor would I recommend that any others take that fork in the road. (Ring the bell) What you describe as bravado, I only consider as the ability to get the job done. 

So as to any version of respect, I'll respect you allot more if you bothered to learn from the mistakes I've committed and expressed that you have determined are bravado & squalling. An education is something that can't be taken from you New guy 101. Even if you choose not to use it. 

Sorry about the rant in your thread rice paddy daddy, but those that won't explore history are doomed to fail because of the shortcoming. Like you I'll snuggle that MK2 when things go bump in the dark rpd. JMHO.


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## NotTooProudToHide

New guy 101 said:


> I honestly dislike calling you out like this but typically Non service members let things slide when its coming from former service members and we need to police up after ourselves.
> Again there fella, I ain't saying you ain't got a DD-214 and I ain't saying you do. I wasn't in the Navy so I can't confirm your statement. But what I will say is that you have made up for all those years of "silent" service by being so boisterously boastful, and equally condescending towards everyone else, as though your the only one to have ever done anything.
> 
> It comes across as very ONLINE COMMANDO-ISH.
> 
> Like I said...if you wanna swap DD-214's I will give you respect due to you for your service...but IMO, your conduct and comments here gives me nothing but an internal wincing feeling at how non service members must see us.... folks typically lump service members into a singular grouping... despite all you may have done...I don't really care to be lumped into a category with a braggart... that's why I spoke out...
> 
> And to give you a little insight into who I am...I wasn't Navy, but Dick Marcincko attended my award ceremony..and I knew Chris-tine Beck...when she was a he.
> Briefed several times to Adm McCraven, and Gen McCrystal before him.
> 
> But in all my posts you don't see me chest thumping and squalling...who da man! At the forum members.
> 
> Lighten up on the bravado and just talk about what you know....not tell us how much we don't know.....
> 
> My 2 cents there... shipmate


Well said sir!

I have nothing but respect for the vets, active duty military, reserve military, and LEO's that call this forum home. You have a wealth of knowledge that can help so many people including myself and believe it or not I've taken quiet a bit of the advice and knowledge offered here and have integrated it into my everyday life. However I cannot stand the contempt like what M118LR shows to anybody offering advice that didn't serve in the Vietnam War as a frogman and that anybody in the civilian world knows nothing about weapons, survival or generally anything else. I also can't help but feel he is full of malarkey when I read the content and context of his posts, he might be what he claims to be but I certainly have my doubts.


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## M118LR

Why is it that you have 2 ears and only one mouth NotTooProudToHide? I have never asked you to follow in my footsteps, I have only requested that you learn from the mistakes I have made. The more I deal with those unwilling or unable to comprehend what others have had to do to survive, the more I understand why the Greatest Generation fell into a code of silence...........................................................


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## New guy 101

M118LR said:


> New guy 101, it isn't your lack of knowledge/experience that taints any desire I might have to garnish your respect.
> 
> Submariners serve in the Navy's "Silent Service". With much respect they are commonly refereed to as "Bubblehead's" in Sailor's Lexicon.
> 
> Just another example of of an overindulgent youth failing to research the innuendo of actual real world circumstances. Who you have rubbed elbows with is of no consequence, who has taken the time to search you out so that those of particular note race across the parade ground to be first in line to take selfies with you, that would be Name Dropping!
> 
> When I was rubbing elbows with Bin Laden he was a Freedom Fighter, not to mention that we needed to deliver many copies of the Koran and a couple of tractor parts, Local legion and rallying point for the Battle against Commie Aggression. But perhaps my indoctrination of the man that trained the man that shot Bin Laden accounted for the lack of concern applied to deeds gone bye.
> 
> About your 2 cents, .................................
> 
> You have to be in the same boat to be a shipmate New guy 101. When I clear all the hurdles to divulge simple experiences and you think that it is chest thumping & squalling, all I can ask is how much time you have shared with others along the beach on the Strand? I don't remember you getting wet and sandy beside me, nor would I recommend that any others take that fork in the road. (Ring the bell) What you describe as bravado, I only consider as the ability to get the job done.
> 
> So as to any version of respect, I'll respect you allot more if you bothered to learn from the mistakes I've committed and expressed that you have determined are bravado & squalling. An education is something that can't be taken from you New guy 101. Even if you choose not to use it.
> 
> Sorry about the rant in your thread rice paddy daddy, but those that won't explore history are doomed to fail because of the shortcoming. Like you I'll snuggle that MK2 when things go bump in the dark rpd. JMHO.


Ok, let me amend my earlier statement....I no longer hate calling you out.

Whether your in fact the Frogman, CIA, deep deep spooky covert operative you say you are is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you continue to prove my point about not wanting any association with you.

Feel good about your claim to have been Bin Ladens sugar Daddy if you will, I certainly wouldn't be shouting that from the forum roof tops.

I won't even go into my Silent service comment...since you are obviously a nit picker with the vernacular...Must be a side affect to all that Sneaking and peaking...I simply used your own articles words... I know what UDT and SEALs are...even though they like to say they were Special Forces...we know that's not accurate don't we?

Your simple divulgence of your experiences is more aptly described as what someone who heard or read about and uses in the bars to impress girls, or at high school reunions to win the Most Traveled honor and maybe get to go home with the Prom queen....

My record is mine to remember, forget, or relive....I don't need to use it to berate the forum members as you choose to do. And your right I was not beside you getting Wet and Sandy... nor were you beside me when I underwent my trials, but I'm not condemning you for that. And I'm sure none of the modern service members are nearly as tough and badass as you were back when Men were men and you had to swim 10 miles uphill in the water to get through Buds.

Maybe in your Laotian exploits and Cold War fight with the Muslims is all true....maybe you even learned some Arabic or Cantonese along the way...Well, I have worked with some more recent Clowns In Action and I will say that your departure is noted...other than the talking about exploits, which they do quite well.

I will say that you are by far the most adventured person I have ever heard about, but I know some pretty damn good heroes... and unfortunately today, and probably at least the rest of this week, I'm from Missouri fella...So Show me.

I will freely admit that your very profound and expansive grammar, prose, and syntax begs me to ask when is your book coming out? It is then that I will truly know you have the heart of a Frogman in you.


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## tango

I spent a lot of years in the Navy, re enlisted a few times.
I have only ever received one DD 214, upon the end of my career.
Seems to me your are full of sh&t!!


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## M118LR

Try again tango! Now let the world understand that you aren't able to compete intellectually with a fore-deck ape. Let's dig through those NAVPERS1070/604"s. So lets peruse all 8 of my S/N 0102-LF-006-5500 that state all previous editions are obsolete. Want to post any of your NAVPERS 601-4"s Navy Occupation / Training AND AWARDS HISTORY? HOW ABOUT ANY OF YOUR pers-404OPED CLASSIFIED ORIGINALS? They begin with: By DIRECTION OF THE NAVY BUREAU OF NAVAL PERSONNEL BY DIRECT ORDER OF THE CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS...........

How far down your throat do you want me to stick your full of s..t pollywog?


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## M118LR

New guy 101 said:


> Ok, let me amend my earlier statement....I no longer hate calling you out.
> 
> Whether your in fact the Frogman, CIA, deep deep spooky covert operative you say you are is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you continue to prove my point about not wanting any association with you.
> 
> Feel good about your claim to have been Bin Ladens sugar Daddy if you will, I certainly wouldn't be shouting that from the forum roof tops.
> 
> I won't even go into my Silent service comment...since you are obviously a nit picker with the vernacular...Must be a side affect to all that Sneaking and peaking...I simply used your own articles words... I know what UDT and SEALs are...even though they like to say they were Special Forces...we know that's not accurate don't we?
> 
> Your simple divulgence of your experiences is more aptly described as what someone who heard or read about and uses in the bars to impress girls, or at high school reunions to win the Most Traveled honor and maybe get to go home with the Prom queen....
> 
> My record is mine to remember, forget, or relive....I don't need to use it to berate the forum members as you choose to do. And your right I was not beside you getting Wet and Sandy... nor were you beside me when I underwent my trials, but I'm not condemning you for that. And I'm sure none of the modern service members are nearly as tough and badass as you were back when Men were men and you had to swim 10 miles uphill in the water to get through Buds.
> 
> Maybe in your Laotian exploits and Cold War fight with the Muslims is all true....maybe you even learned some Arabic or Cantonese along the way...Well, I have worked with some more recent Clowns In Action and I will say that your departure is noted...other than the talking about exploits, which they do quite well.
> 
> I will say that you are by far the most adventured person I have ever heard about, but I know some pretty damn good heroes... and unfortunately today, and probably at least the rest of this week, I'm from Missouri fella...So Show me.
> 
> I will freely admit that your very profound and expansive grammar, prose, and syntax begs me to ask when is your book coming out? It is then that I will truly know you have the heart of a Frogman in you.


I don't recall asking you to take long showers with me!

The small minded never conceive the big picture.

I'll bow to your knowledge of the Navy S.E.A.L.s, since I never earned the 5326 NEC. But that didn't stop (a little name dropping) "The Big M" from hand picking a stick wielding UDT combat veteran for his post "Eagle Claw" adventure.

I've been honorably married since before you ever took an oath to serve. But yet prior to that, I did date (Gentleman don't disclose) the prom queen.

You mistake BADASS for minimum requirements that allow you the opportunity to do the deeds the job requires.

Silence is golden New guy 101.

I am not nor have I ever hinted that I am a HERO. But I shall admit that I am quite adventured. Came with the Billet Description.

All publications have to be submitted for prior approval to the Chief of Naval Operations New guy 101. If you happened to be anything that you claimed to be, you would have already known that.

Care for a little more?

Or is shoe leather your favorite dish?


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## rice paddy daddy

tango said:


> I spent a lot of years in the Navy, re enlisted a few times.
> I have only ever received one DD 214, upon the end of my career.
> Seems to me your are full of sh&t!!


Many of our Naval chapter members were career with 20 or more years. Just one 214 upon discharge, with the proper notations as to "Service This Period", "Total Prior Service", "Foreign and/or Sea Service", etc.

And let the record show that I served a total of 2 years, 8 months and 28 days.
I have never claimed to be a hero, as those that know me will attest, but I have served with some.


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## M118LR

No disrespect rpd. They didn't need to provide you with the S/N 0102-LF-000-2140 instead of the S/N 0102-LF-006-5500 like they did to the VA. All you are looking for is comments in section 13. My final DD214 has several addendum in a couple of pages of block 18 just to cover the Decorations, Medals, Badges, Citations, and Campaign Ribbons Awarded or Authorized (all periods of service) in section 13. If I want to flip pancakes on Memorial Day for the folks at the American Legion, or sell a couple of poppies for the VFW on Veterans Day my total Foreign and/or Sea Service is irrelevant to all Decorations, Medals, Badges, Citations, and (Especially) Campaign Ribbons Awarded. Not all of us are enamored with either the VFW or Am Legion. I wasn't even thrilled with the Association of Naval Special Warfare Veterans rpd. Seems I'm just not much of a club member. Hope Y'all don't think less of me.


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## New guy 101

M118LR said:


> I don't recall asking you to take long showers with me!
> 
> The small minded never conceive the big picture.
> 
> I'll bow to your knowledge of the Navy S.E.A.L.s, since I never earned the 5326 NEC. But that didn't stop (a little name dropping) "The Big M" from hand picking a stick wielding UDT combat veteran for his post "Eagle Claw" adventure.
> 
> I've been honorably married since before you ever took an oath to serve. But yet prior to that, I did date (Gentleman don't disclose) the prom queen.
> 
> You mistake BADASS for minimum requirements that allow you the opportunity to do the deeds the job requires.
> 
> Silence is golden New guy 101.
> 
> I am not nor have I ever hinted that I am a HERO. But I shall admit that I am quite adventured. Came with the Billet Description.
> 
> All publications have to be submitted for prior approval to the Chief of Naval Operations New guy 101. If you happened to be anything that you claimed to be, you would have already known that.
> 
> Care for a little more?
> 
> Or is shoe leather your favorite dish?


Oh sure...I'm a glutton for punishment. 
Sure you didn't ask me to shower with you, which I am happy for since I have heard "It ain't Gay when your Underway" is a mantra long used by some in the Navy...

As to the big picture you assert....You may be right, for my small mind ain't seeing what your painting for me. I appreciate your steadfast commitment to your spouse and withdraw any comment that alludes to impropriety....however I still hold that the comments you make are more self promoting than informative... as I have heard from wanna be's out and about every military base I have ever been too.

As for the submittal to the CNO for approval, I do know that, and my comment was more a light hearted slight at Some of the more recent unauthorized released books such as "No Easy Day",, which earns the authors PNG status with the community...along with truthful appreciation for your extraordinary vocabulary and flawless "Picaso like" prose and cadence to your posts...maybe not Picaso-esque, but certainly abstract and poetic in part, mixed with a Sam Spade Novel.

As for what I claim to be...I have claimed nothing, nor have I attested to any Job or mission or specialty, I simply stated I have been around certain folks and knew some things about the Military...For all this community knows about me I could have been the Gate guard at one of the compounds, the Janitor who cleaned the SCIF or worked in one of the DFACs as a contracted cook.

I don't wish to drag out a slander match with you...as I said, I don't know you, I know your words, I appreciate their construct, just not their content...

If you truly are what you claim, then we could all certainly learn some valuable information from you, but when being fed with bitter disdain and loathing, even a great steak is ruined...

So try not to take my words as condemnation of you, your experiences, your service, or your abilities....merely an aversion to the tact and temperance with which you translate them to me...

With a parting expression of sincerity, I ask this...I may not be the smartest person in the room and I typically like to have somethings explained to me as if I were a 5th grader, because in my honest belief, if a person cannot explain it to me in that manner, they do not know enough about the topic at hand to teach it.

So bear with me as you paint the grander picture for me, if I ask what color your using and what something is supposed to be.


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## New guy 101

And I apologize to the OP as well for the distraction from the topic... I now cease my retorts and rebuttals.


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## M118LR

stevekozak said:


> It is always amusing when John Rourke joins the discussions........


Okay, now that Sam Spade has been interjected. Not to mention a little cubism........ and folks have had the time to figure out that frogmen have been armed with mere knives since WWI.........

With the exception of the founding fathers of a specific blade style, is it the blade that drives the H2H tactics?

Or is it the H2H style that drives which blade is selected?

Example: The AK bayonet drove the fabrication of the M9 bayonet, mostly due to the style of H2H utilized.

So now that the multi-tool has replaced every other edged weapon on the Battlefield" has the call to "fix bayonets" become as antiquated as the training required to become prolific at H2H?


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