# Piston AR's?



## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Anyone familiar with piston AR's? I've been interested in them for a while now, and decided to do some looking today. The clerk at the LGS handed me a Sig 516 Gen 2. I liked everything about it except the price tag (1749.00). Is that in the ball park for a piston AR? or would I be paying a premium for the name. The clerk said he could probably knock a hundred off the price, but still a lot of money. 

It is a nice AR, no doubt, is it worth it? or are there better deals to be had?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Like many I made the move to Gas piston some time back and never looked back. I am not bad mouthing the DI's I own a few but the Gas Piston ones we own are better.
We have chosen the Adams Arm system. This shows the basic parts to it . Another good point is switching back to DI or changing a Di to Gas piston with this system is easy.


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## alterego (Jan 27, 2013)

I Wish You Could Tear Down A Sig Next To A Bushmaster Or A Dpms So You Could Look At The Machine Work.The Part Are The Same Function From The Cost Effective Versions To The Higher Quality Units. However You Can See The Difference In The Quality. That Being Said. I Have Owned Four Different AR Rifles. None Of Them Failed To Cycle And Fire. My Sig 400 Enhanced Is By Far The Smoothest Of The Four I Have Had. I Have Never Fired A Pistol Version. Quite Frankly With A Collapsible Stock And A Carbine Barrel They Are Exceptionally Short For Maneuver. I Like An H Bar But If You Put A Pencil Barrel On To Save Weight You Would Have An Increasingly Light Unit With Out It Being A Pistol. Wish You Could Stop By And Fire The Two. The Name Is Not What You Are Paying For.


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## SDF880 (Mar 28, 2013)

Smitty901 said:


> Like many I made the move to Gas piston some time back and never looked back. I am not bad mouthing the DI's I own a few but the Gas Piston ones we own are better.
> We have chosen the Adams Arm system. This shows the basic parts to it . Another good point is switching back to DI or changing a Di to Gas piston with this system is easy.
> View attachment 6317


Bud's has Adam Arms piston AR-15's (Blem) on their website for 599.00 right now. Most of the reviews have been good.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

US Military had planned to move to a Gas piston AR. deployments budgets and the like got in the way of ever making the move. The only issue that came up in some of the testing they did was on full auto after 6000 rounds they did encounter some spring failures do to over heating.
Up side once lubed the weapons did not require more lube. One test by Huldra using dirty ammo the weapon was lubed once in 4800 rounds had a fail to feed, they oiled it quick chambered a new round and kept right on shooting.
All our AR's fire just fine the gas pistons require less lube, they are so much easier to clean. Experienced shooters will notice a faster recovery for follow up shots .
Another side effect of the gas piston system is you can adjust the venting of gas to allow for the use of silencers and or special loaded rounds.
Adams Arm just released an improved gas block that even allows more adjustments for the custom loader.
Another nice thing about AR's you can swap out your uppers with either system


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

The Adams Arms system can be added to a cheap AR for roughly 200 bucks. Don't spend $1800 bucks for one AR. When you could have 2 setup and running for a little less. I would rather have 2 cheaper AR's then just one. Heck get three cheap gas guns and forget the piston. Arm the whole family or neighbor hood.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

The only AR's that should be selling on the higher end right now would be ones that come dressed up with the expensive addon parts. Gas pistons have come way down from where they once were.


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## shotlady (Aug 30, 2012)

I have one. worth every penny. hang out and wait for a sale. you can pick them up for about 1500. check arms list too. losts people unloading stuff!


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

If you watch the Sig torture test on YouTube it is pretty damn impressive! I doubt my 6920 could handle half of that. Of course, there's a big difference in price.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Like many I made the move to Gas piston some time back and never looked back. I am not bad mouthing the DI's I own a few but the Gas Piston ones we own are better.
> We have chosen the Adams Arm system. This shows the basic parts to it . Another good point is switching back to DI or changing a Di to Gas piston with this system is easy.
> View attachment 6317


Have you experienced wear from carrier tilt or did you install the specialty buffer to take care of that problem?


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

dsdmmat said:


> Have you experienced wear from carrier tilt or did you install the specialty buffer to take care of that problem?


No special buffer was need. Early on a lot of AR's need wolf springs and different buffers to deal with cheap ammo. An issue that seems to have taken care of its self.
I own a few GAs piston AR's they all do the job . The parts in that picture were removed and reinstalled during a upper receiver swap


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

I have several piston driven and DI ARs and the HK MR556 is the best. It's the military equivalent of the 416 that the Seal Team 6 used to kill Bin Laden and M27 that will replace the Marines SAW.

You do have to watch out for carrier tilt with some of the lower price piston driven AR's and the kits. But not with the HK it was designed to be piston driven.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> No special buffer was need. Early on a lot of AR's need wolf springs and different buffers to deal with cheap ammo. An issue that seems to have taken care of its self.
> I own a few GAs piston AR's they all do the job . The parts in that picture were removed and reinstalled during a upper receiver swap


The reason I never switched any of my DI guns over, I was waiting for the solution to carrier tilt.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Most deny it's even an issue.


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## dsdmmat (Nov 9, 2012)

AquaHull said:


> Most deny it's even an issue.


Well most deny Obamacare results are raised premiums and a destroyed health care indusatry too.


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## Hemi45 (May 5, 2014)

Damn TN, that demo certainly impresses! And that HK can be had for the bargain price of only ... ???


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## Alpha-17 (Nov 16, 2012)

HKs are stupid expensive. The MR556A1 was going for $3000ish a few years back, and more than likely is still in the $2600 range. Sounds like a fine rifle, but the barrel is too damn heavy for my tastes, and isn't chrome lined (at least it wasn't when they first came out).

Piston guns are cool, and they solve a potential problem with DI ARs, but, for the average shooter, they aren't needed. A lot of lower quality piston-AR makers have as many problems with their guns as they solve. Gotta remember, the DI system, while dirty, has been around long enough for most of the kinks to be worked out, and everything in the AR was designed to work with it. Start screwing around with the operating system, and you're likely to create problems. A quality DI gun like a Daniel Defense, or Bravo Company AR would be as good, if not better, than most piston-driven rifles.

If you're set on a piston rifle, the Sig is supposed to be pretty good for a piston AR, but if you're swapping the operating system, there's not reason to marry yourself to the AR platform. Newer designs like the SCAR, Tavor, etc offer improvements, and were built from the ground up to use a piston. Expensive, but in my experience, worth it.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Is carrier tilt an issue with the Sig 516? I noticed that there is a built up area at the back/bottom of the carrier, on both the Sig and also the S&W's M&P piston ARs. I didn't find that feature on the carriers of the DI guns. Is that built up area the fix for carrier tilt? 

TN nice videos, I noticed that he used head gear (helmet) when he tested the colt. The big Chicken, A real man would have done it Naked and Afraid style, with the private parts blurred out of course.:lol:

I am okay with the DI system and the Colt for that matter as both have been in use for quite some time. I don't think the military would have kept the rifle if there were serious design flaws.

The Sig comes with some nice features that are not normally found on a basic AR, I like the way Sig set up the QD sling points, and it comes with quad rails (rail covers included), It also comes with very nice set of BUIS. The rifle feels very solid and is compact. No rattles or wiggles. 

As the quality looked to be there the only thing that came to mind as a question was the piston, you hear so much these days and spending 1750.00 for a potential problem would make for an expensive lesson.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

AquaHull said:


> Most deny it's even an issue.


Mainly because 99% of it is made up anyway.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Hemi45 said:


> Damn TN, that demo certainly impresses! And that HK can be had for the bargain price of only ... ???


I don't know what they are going for today. When I got mine I paid $2,195. I know the price has gone up due to demand. That should tell you something. You will not find a better built AR.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Seneca said:


> TN nice videos, I noticed that he used head gear (helmet) when he tested the colt. The big Chicken, A real man would have done it Naked and Afraid style, with the private parts blurred out of course.:lol


Being able to come out of the water shooting is one of the reasons the Navy seals went with the HK 416 a piston vs a DI


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Alpha-17 said:


> HKs are stupid expensive. The MR556A1 was going for $3000ish a few years back, and more than likely is still in the $2600 range. Sounds like a fine rifle, but the barrel is too damn heavy for my tastes, and isn't chrome lined (at least it wasn't when they first came out).
> 
> Piston guns are cool, and they solve a potential problem with DI ARs, but, for the average shooter, they aren't needed. A lot of lower quality piston-AR makers have as many problems with their guns as they solve. Gotta remember, the DI system, while dirty, has been around long enough for most of the kinks to be worked out, and everything in the AR was designed to work with it. Start screwing around with the operating system, and you're likely to create problems. A quality DI gun like a Daniel Defense, or Bravo Company AR would be as good, if not better, than most piston-driven rifles.
> 
> If you're set on a piston rifle, the Sig is supposed to be pretty good for a piston AR, but if you're swapping the operating system, there's not reason to marry yourself to the AR platform. Newer designs like the SCAR, Tavor, etc offer improvements, and were built from the ground up to use a piston. Expensive, but in my experience, worth it.


The reason the heavy barrel is the civilian version was designed for accuracy. . You can put a lighter weight 416 barrel on it if you are a girly man . The only negative is the weight. But the MR556 feels like a battle rifle and its built that way. It's about 8 oz. heaver then my Core 15 piston rifle. HK says the way they make the barrel it doesn't need to be chrome lined.

Now is it worth twice as much as a DI AR. That going to be your call. But for me it was. I'm not an AR fan boy to begin with. And before I got this rifle I would not take an AR with me if the SHTF due their reliability problems. The HK 93/91 or one of my AKs would have been my choice. But now the HK MR556 is on the top list.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Tennessee said:


> Being able to come out of the water shooting is one of the reasons the Navy seals went with the HK 416 a piston vs a DI


If I'm understanding this correctly what you are saying is a piston driven AR is less likely to suffer a water caused catastrophic failure such as the Colt in the video.

Buds Guns made a torture test video of the Sig 516. I watched it and it was pretty impressive, the 516 came through water, sand, immersion of a hot barrel and total immersion such as in the HK video, the 516 came through with flying colors.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Seneca said:


> If I'm understanding this correctly what you are saying is a piston driven AR is less likely to suffer a water caused catastrophic failure such as the Colt in the video.
> 
> Buds Guns made a torture test video of the Sig 516. I watched it and it was pretty impressive, the 516 came through water, sand, immersion of a hot barrel and total immersion such as in the HK video, the 516 came through with flying colors.


Yes, water in the DI gas tube can cause catastrophic failure. I looked at the Sig 516 before I got my HK and didn't like the balance. Too front heavy for my taste. Other than that it looked to be a very fine weapon. I don't know if any militaries use the Sig. But the HK had to pass to several torture tests before it could be used by the US Marines and the Navy Seals.


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## bgreed (Feb 26, 2014)

I went the route of the Robinson Arms xcr-L it is designed as a piston gun with no buffer tube so with a 16" bbl and a folding stock your overall length is 261/2" folded. It is also available in 6.8 SPC, 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39, 6.5 grendel and soon 300Blk out. It can be changed to any of this calibers in about two minutes. There is also the XCR-M in .308. The rifle has a three lug bolt and a massive extractor.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

I have heard good things about Robinson Arms, heck I'd buy the HK if I could get past the asking price.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

US military use Colt and Remington also so that in it self has little meaning.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Seneca said:


> I have heard good things about Robinson Arms, heck I'd buy the HK if I could get past the asking price.


I'm not saying you should go out and spend 3 grand on a HK. But if you look at the HK close up you will see where the value is. It's not your typical M4. The material and workmanship is far superior to the $800 - $2000 ARs on the market today. But for me the best bang for the buck is a good AK. I think the AK is the most reliable gun on the market for the price.

For what you pay for most entry level ARs you can by an AK and 1000 round of ammo.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> US military use Colt and Remington also so that in it self has little meaning.


Well it depends on who you talk to. As I recall there was a thread way back when I was starting out with the AR that you and Fuzzee gave me some pretty good advise, which led to me getting a Colt. It has been a great AR for me and while I may look here and there at different AR's the Colt stays, It's a keeper.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Seneca said:


> Well it depends on who you talk to. As I recall there was a thread way back when I was starting out with the AR that you and Fuzzee gave me some pretty good advise, which led to me getting a Colt. It has been a great AR for me and while I may look here and there at different AR's the Colt stays, It's a keeper.


 Colt is outstanding My point is that just because the military or LE uses something does not in it's self make it the best option for others.
I own some Colts and have not quit buying them yet. I did convert one to Gas piston.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

That's true, just because the AR is used by military and police forces, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best option for the masses. Yet the AR platform is very popular among civilians. Returning vets and people who have served in the military have a lot to do with that popularity. 

I also have the Mini 14 and it is a very good rifle, it too is a keeper. Yet it is not the easiest rifle to mount optics on. I bought a Weigland (sp?) rail for it and that solved the most of the optics mounting issues. 

The truth is I may never (hope) have a need for features the military finds necessary. That said, I have no problem buying a rifle that incorporates some of those features.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2014)

I would suggest taking a look at Lewis Machine & Tool's MRP Piston.

I have the MRP and it has been one of the best shooting experiences of any AR/M-4 I have had the opportunity to own, be issued or shoot.

Check them out. And I believe their prices are more competitive and several online dealers offer them at a reasonable price...if you can find one. They are sought after.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

I have a 3 week old Ruger SR-15 gas piston. From everyone who should know -- this gun has an excellent reputation. Paid $1306 for it at a big gun show. Wonderful gun, and it came with 3 MagPul 30 round mags. Already started customizing it for me. I've added a good 2-point sling -- Vickers Combat. And call me a wuss, but I also added a soft "Limbsaver" recoil pad. I have an AimPoint Red Dot on order. Shot it at the 25 yd and 50 yd range, and was amazed at how tight my groups are with just the iron sights.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

I will take a look at the Lewis Machine & Tool MRP. 

So far the Sig seems to have most of the features I'm interested in. It comes with rail covers, BUIS, sling w/QD quick release attachments and a magpul magazine. I like the ideal of having three pre established sling attachment points along both sides of the rifle. Lots of sling mounting options.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

DerBiermeister said:


> I have a 3 week old Ruger SR-15 gas piston. From everyone who should know -- this gun has an excellent reputation. Paid $1306 for it at a big gun show. Wonderful gun, and it came with 3 MagPul 30 round mags. Already started customizing it for me. I've added a good 2-point sling -- Vickers Combat. And call me a wuss, but I also added a soft "Limbsaver" recoil pad. I have an AimPoint Red Dot on order. Shot it at the 25 yd and 50 yd range, and was amazed at how tight my groups are with just the iron sights.


 How can you go wrong with a Ruger.


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## Montana Rancher (Mar 4, 2013)

Seneca said:


> Anyone familiar with piston AR's? I've been interested in them for a while now, and decided to do some looking today. The clerk at the LGS handed me a Sig 516 Gen 2. I liked everything about it except the price tag (1749.00). Is that in the ball park for a piston AR? or would I be paying a premium for the name. The clerk said he could probably knock a hundred off the price, but still a lot of money.
> 
> It is a nice AR, no doubt, is it worth it? or are there better deals to be had?


I have enough money to make the choice and I stick with the gas powered units.

1. They are much cheaper, at least half and with some shopping 1/3 of that price
2. They shoot and function just fine, OMG you need to learn to clean a firearm
3. If SHTF there will be a lot more replacement parts for your firearm

Unless you are fully prepared with all the food, ammo, water, and extras for a SHTF event don't waste your extra dollars on a gimic


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Montana Rancher said:


> I have enough money to make the choice and I stick with the gas powered units.
> 
> 1. They are much cheaper, at least half and with some shopping 1/3 of that price
> 2. They shoot and function just fine, OMG you need to learn to clean a firearm
> ...


MR you are right on all accounts;
1.	Most DI ARs are cheaper than piston but only by a couple hundred dollars in most cases.
2.	Yes will need to clean them more often, because DI ARs will get dirty quicker than piston ARs. I can shoot a thousand rounds in my piston and still not have to clean it. Try that with your DI
3.	And yes you will need to find parts due to the heat transfer to the working parts. The DI ARs will break due to thermal stress. The piston AR does not transfer heat to the working parts and will not brake due to same thermal stresses.

I have also been blessed to be able to choose and I chose the piston. Sold all my DI ARs for the same reasons you chose to keep them.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

The thing to keep in mind is you are not disrespecting the DI when you embrace the gas piston . Things move on. In the case of SHTF converting and switching parts back and forth is simple in most cases.
True most people do not shoot their AR's enough to worry about wear caused by the blow back in DI's. But those of us that due there is a major difference.
The AR did not become a go to weapon for the citizens because it was used by the military. It was because it is a powerful light weight and flexible weapon that works. It was just the military use that exposed the rest to it.
The AK and SKS that so many hold up as so simple and reliable is a Gas piston.


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## DerBiermeister (Aug 15, 2014)

IMO, it goes back to the old adage --- "some people like Chevys, and some like Fords." And THAT is never going to change.

I just found this for a good comparison between DI and gas piston:
http://info.stagarms.com/blog/bid/2...nd-Direct-Impingement-technology-for-an-AR-15

I am not qualified (not enough AR experience) to weigh in on the choice. I made my purchase (gas piston) based on opinions from a few very knowledgeable friends. When it comes to guns -- I shut up and listen, and soak it in. And then go to the range and attempt to get slightly close to the accuracy of these guys.

As to whether I'll live long enough (when the SHTF) to worry about replacing parts? -- I seriously doubt it. I won't kid myself. The coming "bad times" are going to be worse than anyone here can imagine. And physically, I am no longer a spring chicken. I cannot "go on a march". I just want to be around long enough to make a stand and take some of the bastards with me.

DI or gas piston ...... whatever floats your boat!


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Like many I made the move to Gas piston some time back and never looked back. I am not bad mouthing the DI's I own a few but the Gas Piston ones we own are better.
> We have chosen the Adams Arm system. This shows the basic parts to it . Another good point is switching back to DI or changing a Di to Gas piston with this system is easy.
> View attachment 6317


$249 for barrel and kit,will post link in new thread


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## Fuzzee (Nov 20, 2012)

Even though I may finally be done with piston AR's deciding to move back to just battlerifles for now, I've used them, switching from DI for over a decade when there was major hate for them from DI koolaid drinkers. One thing to keep close to thought when buying one these days is that all piston AR systems are not the same. Some are much easier to maintain and find spare parts for and some are much wider used, making them more common than others. I started and kept using Adams Arms system AR's for this exact reason for years. 

When shtf, your going to be hard pressed to find someone sitting on a corner with a whole bunch of AR parts or any firearms parts, looking to sell or trade for them. The smartest thing you can do for your prep firearms is buy quality spare parts. Because it may be all you have for as long as you live. You can't bet on anything else unless you enjoy betting on thin chances. If you buy spare proprietary piston AR system parts, than you'll have them when/if you need them, same as all non-proprietary parts. I never had anything break on my piston AR's even with lots of rounds down range, but I still kept spares. Same for rifles like my PTR91. The G3 is used all around the world by some of the most backwoods, mud hut living dipshits who don't know the difference between a potato and their ass, and those rifles are still running strong. But they still break too and I stock spare parts for mine.


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## Seneca (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks Fuzzee, 
I may not wear parts out, yet they can be damaged, so having spares is a good idea. Some companies are better at providing that level of service than others. I've never owned a Sig, so I'm not sure what their customer service is like. Could be good or maybe not so good. I'll have to check into that. There is always Brownells.


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## AquaHull (Jun 10, 2012)

SIG = German, most of the stuff they actually build is good. The 22 pistol with their name on the pot metal is not one of them.


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## Tennessee (Feb 1, 2014)

Murphy says “the parts that you have spars for will never break, it’s the one you don’t that will.”


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Light simple basic low cost Piston .Lube it once shoot it a long time no more lube needed no cleaning needed.


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