# Kabar improvements?



## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Do the current modifications to the Original Kabar (MK2, USMC Utility/Fighting knife) make it a better knife?

1. The inclusion of a section of serrated edge.
2. The Kraton handle. 
3. The Kraton handle and section of serrated edge.
4. The removal of the upper section of the handguard on the D2-Extreme.

While the D2-Extreme has been modified to allow for ease of lanyarding, is it actually an improvement on the original to remove the upper portion of the handguard while serrating the blade edge closest to the hilt?


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

In the opinion of this Old Soldier, the original Ka-Bar adopted by the Marine Corps in 1942 is an excellent all-around field knife as is.
Most likely, these "improvements" were made to capture a younger clientele impressed with "trendy" things.

Maybe they are a real improvement in some eyes.

I carried a contract Camillus in Vietnam, got it from the Marines we were on loan to. I never had to use it for self defense (thank God) but it was worth its weight in gold for such soldier tasks as breaking the wire banding on C-ration cases.
Today I have a 20 year old Ka-Bar and an original WWII piece complete with GI fiberglas scabbard marked US Navy MkII 1943.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

They always have to mess with perfection. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

I like my original but the D2 Extreme KA-BAR looks pretty dang nice to me.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Now I've got to admit that the D2 Tool Steel holds a working edge much longer, it takes more than a standard stone to rework the edge if you abuse it, not to mention that the serrated section requires different tools-stones to revamp the original edge. But I believe that we do need to discuss the original weaknesses to converse about the perceived improvements. 

About that rattail tang? 

Now salt water immersion has exacerbated that weakness. In it's original form the leather washers could be replaced after performing required maintenance. But did the Kraton handle improve or detract from the ability to service this weakness?

The Original leather sheath. Oil it and it lasts indefinitely, is it better than kydex? (What temperature are you using it at?) A kydex lined ballistic nylon sheath. Perhaps the optimum. 

So why didn't Kabar just add an honest full tang and removable scales? 

Not to mention why would you serrate the section of the blade that you highlight when removing the top of the handguard? Couldn't you move the serrated portion of the blade an inch or inch and a half towards the tip?

The original was easily serviced, if a bit needy for required maintenance. So are the current modifications actual improvements???


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

The thing with serrations is how are you going to sharpen the blade with just a small flat stone?
Remember, space and weight limitations are important for the average Soldier. No room for fancy sharpening devices.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

rice paddy daddy said:


> The thing with serrations is how are you going to sharpen the blade with just a small flat stone?
> Remember, space and weight limitations are important for the average Soldier. No room for fancy sharpening devices.


https://www.lowes.com/pd/Smith-s-Kn...VAhgMCh1Rjg4EEAQYBCABEgI5CfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Quicksharp tools have replaced honing stones nowadays. JMHO.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

At 75 yrs old, . . . I still haven't found a serious need for a serrated blade. Not one. Never, . . . ever.

I got 2 for sure, . . . I think I have 3, . . . all good knives, . . . one has never cut anything but air, . . . probably never will in my hands, . . . 

Just think somebody is trying to make a buck with a new toy, . . . but I ain't biting.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

dwight55 said:


> At 75 yrs old, . . . I still haven't found a serious need for a serrated blade. Not one. Never, . . . ever.
> 
> I got 2 for sure, . . . I think I have 3, . . . all good knives, . . . one has never cut anything but air, . . . probably never will in my hands, . . .
> 
> ...


Now those serrations, they take a different tool to re-sharpen; yet how many times have you used a serrated steak knife at a restaurant without giving it a second thought? Just how many serrated steak knives reside within your own kitchen? Get the proper sharpening tool and serrations become non-factors. JMHO.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

They always find away to put new finger prints on things. new and improved. Fix something that is not broken. Change for the sake of change IMO. Most soldiers at least infantry.Cav carry some type of Gerber. even that fills most needs


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> They always find away to put new finger prints on things. new and improved. Fix something that is not broken. Change for the sake of change IMO. Most soldiers at least infantry.Cav carry some type of Gerber. even that fills most needs


Or an EESE or Tops.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Serrations were never meant to be sharpened.

You can however touch them by doing the back side of it.

Keep the stone at almost the original angle, you will be able to do the points.

Restaurant steak knives are serrated to save replacement prematurely.

The points keep the rest of the grind from getting dull against the porcelain plates.

That way you have 80 to 90 % still sharp.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Or an EESE or Tops.


 They have for years been a item that cam be issued from inventory.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

About the only use for serrations would be as a help in cutting seat belts at an accident scene if you had to get someone out in a hurry.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

I'm still on the fence about the restructured grip of the D2 Extreme. You don't have to drill into the top strap handguard to securely attach a lanyard, But why remove the top strap handguard if your serrating the blade edge at the point closest to the grip? Seems counterproductive to bushcraft whittling? Perhaps even a little less safe if the knife is used to stab anything. 

Folks that like to stone a 17 degree razor edge along the entire blade probably have no use for the serrations on any variant. Overall the shape makes for an excellent carving knife with the untampered Original straight edge. JMHO. 

Now the Kraton handle is a bit grippier when things get cold & bloody, (or slippery) so it may actually be an improvement if the knife is landlocked? (not sure) But it isn't an aid to anti-corrosion maintenance on the rat tail tang in salt water environments. Guess it is up to the user on what is or is not an actual improvement?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

The Kraton handle is a big improvement.

Nostalgia aside, leather on a field knife is stupid. It is too temperamental with environment changes, swelling and shrinking from moisture, and can become slippery under certain conditions.
Kraton was developed to resolve these issues. It isn't affected by climate and even when coated in the blood of your enemy's bowels, won't slip in the hand.

Better is better. Technology changes. Modernizing the line with improved features is good.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Kauboy said:


> The Kraton handle is a big improvement.
> 
> Nostalgia aside, leather on a field knife is stupid. It is too temperamental with environment changes, swelling and shrinking from moisture, and can become slippery under certain conditions.
> Kraton was developed to resolve these issues. It isn't affected by climate and even when coated in the blood of your enemy's bowels, won't slip in the hand.
> ...


Boiled linseed oil and the ability to replace leather washers far outweighs the catastrophic failure of a rat tail tang corroded by salt water immersion, so use your Kraton handle until the rat tail tang fails, but your going to need a bit of backhand training to effectively use a Kabar to disenbowl your enemy.Especially once the rat tail tang fails. JMHO.

Better is based on landlocked excursions, I can readily remove & Replace leather washers (soaked in boiled linseed oil) to preserve the rat tail tang living daily in a saltwater environment. You have just empirically stated that the Kraton handle is far superior to the leather washer gripped handle, so perhaps it's time to explain how you intend to preserve the rat tail tang by removing and replacing that Kraton Handle? I merely ask that you describe that superior improvement?

Don't go silent! I expect you to expound, ( potificant ) upon your theory. The Kraton handle is grippier, but can it be manipulated to allow anti-corrosion maintenance to the rat tail tang? If it's a simple as knocking out the pin, removing the butt cap, R&R ing the leather washers, and reassembling. Well than I'll join you in the Improved Kraton Handle Club.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

Swimmer1 said:


> Boiled linseed oil and the ability to replace leather washers far outweighs the catastrophic failure of a rat tail tang corroded by salt water immersion, so use your Kraton handle until the rat tail tang fails, but your going to need a bit of backhand training to effectively use a Kabar to disenbowl your enemy.Especially once the rat tail tang fails. JMHO.
> 
> Better is based on landlocked excursions, I can readily remove & Replace leather washers (soaked in boiled linseed oil) to preserve the rat tail tang living daily in a saltwater environment. You have just empirically stated that the Kraton handle is far superior to the leather washer gripped handle, so perhaps it's time to explain how you intend to preserve the rat tail tang by removing and replacing that Kraton Handle? I merely ask that you describe that superior improvement?
> 
> Don't go silent! I expect you to expound, ( potificant ) upon your theory. The Kraton handle is grippier, but can it be manipulated to allow anti-corrosion maintenance to the rat tail tang? If it's a simple as knocking out the pin, removing the butt cap, R&R ing the leather washers, and reassembling. Well than I'll join you in the Improved Kraton Handle Club.


Kraton. Is. Better.

I made no other claim. Don't sit there and demand I defend some position YOU present.
Upset *MY* claim if you can, but don't play the strawman game.

I'll accept your silence, since you don't have a good rebuttal to my ACTUAL claim.

You'll have to forgive my delay. I tend to family needs on Saturday evenings, and Sunday morning is for the Lord. Your wishes for reply are a distant 87th... ish.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Better?

Removable scales like on the Ranger Bush Series I'd consider, "Better". (But then you lose the basic carving knife profile and end up with a chef's knife profile.)

The Torah gives a different timeline, and Combat has proven to me that there are not any atheists in foxholes regardless of what day of the week it is. Time is a finite commodity, Thank You for sharing yours with US Kauboy.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Kauboy said:


> Kraton. Is. Better.
> 
> I made no other claim. Don't sit there and demand I defend some position YOU present.
> Upset *MY* claim if you can, but don't play the strawman game.
> ...


For a utility/ fighting knife Kraton IS BETTER!


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Just to let you all know, D-2 has a .0020" edge rollover.

Even at 90 degrees it will roll, I know I have built tools and die sets with it for 30+ years.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

SOCOM42 said:


> For a utility/ fighting knife Kraton IS BETTER!


SOCOM42, does utility incorporate daily saltwater exposure? As a fighting knife perhaps honest full tang bayonets (AK47 style comes to mind)

But the carving knife profile is "Better" for the plunge cut & ring around the rectum required to field dress large inland game. JMHO.

Can we agree that a 20 degree working edge lasts longer than a 17 degree razor edge on both Kabar 1095 Cro-Van & D-2 Tool Steel?


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Swimmer1 said:


> SOCOM42, does utility incorporate daily saltwater exposure? As a fighting knife perhaps honest full tang bayonets (AK47 style comes to mind)
> 
> But the carving knife profile is "Better" for the plunge cut & ring around the rectum required to field dress large inland game. JMHO.
> 
> Can we agree that a 20 degree working edge lasts longer than a 17 degree razor edge on both Kabar 1095 Cro-Van & D-2 Tool Steel?


 You waist our time with needless therum, use whatever the hell is best for you.

I have been sharpening my knives by hand for over 65 years, never used a GD sharpening jig, never will.

You sound like you are paranoid over blade failure in different forms, go make your own to satisfy your compulsions.

Get a piece of D-2 @ 1/2" X 1/4" by about 6" long, have it heat treated to 60 R"C" scale,

put it in a vise with 5 inches exposed.

Now try breaking it off or even bending it with your bare hands.

The one I made has tang 3/4" X 1/4" and it has machine leather belting for a grip,

the belt drove a machine for about 80 years before it was retired, fully soaked with machine oil, will never rot.

Was my first shot at making a real knife, did it on lunch hour at H&R Arms.

I have my father in laws Kaybar from WW2,

he used it to kill 6 Japs when he ran out of ammo for his BAR in the battle for the Tenaru on Guadalcanal.

He is on record for the feat and has a BS for it.

If the knife was as good as it was made then, it is good enough for me today!!!!!

As an afterthought, AK bayonets are in my opinion made out of crap, need the full tang to stay together.

They are deemed disposable like the operators who carry them and the AK for the other side.

I did not know you hunted deer is salt water or saltwater marshes, I don't hunt at all, except rats.

Get two knives, one for your blackwater black ops action and one for deer gutting, best of both worlds then!!!


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

SOCOM42 said:


> You waist our time with needless therum, use whatever the hell is best for you.
> 
> I have been sharpening my knives by hand for over 65 years, never used a GD sharpening jig, never will.
> 
> ...


Appreciate your opinion.

The object of sending Our Boy's into Combat is to bring them "Home" to the ones that Love them. JMHO and my Profession. Patton had a few words to say about this. But me thinks that those words of WAR fall upon deaf ears. Once again, JMHO.

Prior to being selected, hunting and/or being raised on land utilized for processing table fare is a prerequisite. If you're too squeamish to apply for work in a slaughterhouse, perhaps you're not what the Black Ops Folks are looking for..........


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

Swimmer1 said:


> Appreciate your opinion.
> 
> The object of sending Our Boy's into Combat is to bring them "Home" to the ones that Love them. JMHO and my Profession. Patton had a few words to say about this. But me thinks that those words of WAR fall upon deaf ears. Once again, JMHO.


I did my military time, and then I personally contributed to the demise of a lot of ******** in Gulf War One.

Oh,yeah, I also did the same with the slopes in Nam back in the 60's and 70's.

Don't preach to me about quality anything for the military, the stuff I made was second to none.

You sound more and more like our departed sand crab.

That D-2 has a lot of chrome in it, so it is not going to rot too quick.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Thank You Sir for doing your time "Standing UP". 

To "Preach" implicates that your actions in Combat are above reproach? I make no such claim! I only wish to teach, that way folks may learn from my mistakes. But we have walked/swum the same territory at the same time, yet you don't include the Genocide of Bosnia/Herzegovina in your dossier? Like those that came before me, the questions surrounding Genocide and the use of an MK2 are better left to Historians. JMHO. Care to share?


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

What tangential path did this thread take?

When I left, it was a discussion about the merits of the changes to a Kabar knife line.
Upon my return, it's a war credential pissing match and the beginnings of a philosophical waxing on the topic of genocide.

Having never served, I'll see myself clear of the windward whizzing, but thank you both for your service.

As for the knife, I do agree that scales would make it more maintenance friendly. My initial argument was, and still is, that kraton is a better material for a knife handle than leather. The Kabar is intended as an all-around survival/fighting knife. If you find yourself in any given extreme environment, it might not be the best choice, or it might be perfect. Having different options in order to maximize effectiveness within the chosen area of operation is absolutely a good thing. It's not like they are doing away with the original any time soon.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

It's mostly Old Military Folk that served between the 40's & 90's who have strong opinions about the Kabar. Military folks in the 2000's are probably more familiar with a multi-tool for a utility knife than the Old U/F Kabar. Nowadays there are probably more Kabar's in KOA Campgrounds than serving in the armed forces. I'm not even sure if the USMC Bayonet could be considered a modification to the U/F Kabar? Or if the USMC is even still issuing bayonets? 

Since most U/F Kabar knives are probably in civilian use, the draconian schedule of service maintenance is no longer a factor. Folks in Montana probably ain't to concerned with how much salt water use thier knife is going to get, but folks along the intercoastal in Florida may be a bit more worried. Like you stated, " It's not like they are doing away with the original", so if the Kraton or Leather handle feels more comfortable it's simple enough to replace either knife prior to suffering a catastrophic failure of the tang. One handle or the other may fit better dependent on the size of the hand wielding the blade. Selecting Kraton over the Original Leather if it feels or fits the hand better, and it works within the parameters of the task. Should be just a matter of personal preference. If the Kraton works better for you, than it's better for you. The leather has been around along time and has proven to be effective anywhere, but perhaps that is just the effect of time? (History)

PS: As to the reference to genocide: Please don't judge to harshly. The only unchanged GI item that I carried while witnessing in Bosnia, that was also carried by my relations whom witnessed in Germany during WWII, was the F/U Kabar. Every other GI item had been upgraded. Hopefully no other generation shall have to bear witness or share the experience ever again. But such is the service history of the Kabar in this family.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> Just to let you all know, D-2 has a .0020" edge rollover.
> 
> Even at 90 degrees it will roll, I know I have built tools and die sets with it for 30+ years.


I know very little about steels.
The US military used to use 1095 carbon steel for bayonets, the M3 Trench Knife, etc.
I also know that some knife makers use automotive leaf springs for blades. And that D-2 is a tool steel.

Is 1095 a good steel for knives?


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> I know very little about steels.
> The US military used to use 1095 carbon steel for bayonets, the M3 Trench Knife, etc.
> I also know that some knife makers use automotive leaf springs for blades. And that D-2 is a tool steel.
> 
> Is 1095 a good steel for knives?


Yes it is a good knife steel as long as it is heat treated properly.

Strong and holds a good edge because of the carbon content.

Leaf spring do make good blades, need to be had from small cars for thinner sections, less machining or grinding..


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## Steve40th (Aug 17, 2016)

Well, with all my vast experience, the Ka-Bar is a sweet blade, proven in many combat and non combat roles.. It set a standard that still holds.. I would not want to be on the receiving end of it.


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## Swimmer1 (Sep 25, 2019)

"You can't go wrong with this timeless tool steel. 1095 has long been popular among knife makers for its easy workability, high toughness, and good edge holding. 1095 is budget-friendly and widely available."

https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Best-Knife-Steel-Guide--3368

"Good edge retention, toughness, and sharpenability, D2 has been a popular knife tool steel dating back to WWII, and for good reason. Keep your blade oiled as D2 is prone to rusting and corrosion. This is one of those most ubiquitous steels in knives."

Since I'm not a Metallurgist or Master Bladesmith, best I can offer is charts.


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

1095 and D2 are both good for rough use tools. They are hard, and thus somewhat more difficult to sharpen, but they hold a decent edge. You can't get a razor's edge on them very easily, as you can with more mild steels, but they will withstand a lot of abuse, if properly tempered.
Most "battle ready" sword options available today are made from either 1060 or 1095 steel (60 or 95% carbon). You can imagine the abuse they are designed to take.


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