# Let’s Talk About Cold Dead Fingers



## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

I'm around guns all day.

Big guns, little guns, guns that go kaboom.
Fat guns, skinny guns, guns that clear a room.

Since I would like other people to take these guns home with them, I am also around other people. Since I like to interact with other people, I tend to engage these people in conversations that go beyond converting my guns to their money. Being in the south, football is usually a pretty fair bet. Peanuts, cotton, and poultry are also great topics. And of course, politics. Specifically the politics of gun control. Since people think being behind the gun counter somehow endows me with a supernatural insight in these matters, they want to know my opinion. "What's going to happen James? What are they going to ban? How do you think this is going to end?" After stating an unconvincing disclaimer about not being intellectually infallible, I generally paint a gloomy picture of the future where guns are much more heavily regulated, if not outright banned...

You've heard it from That guy who played Ben-Hur. You've heard it from the NRA. You've heard it from your crazy uncle Bill. Posters, patches and bumper stickers have shouted it far and wide:* "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!" * *Many, many people that I encounter daily utter this as if it fixes everything.* They think all it takes to keep their guns is a couple extra mags under their pillow, and a half dozen cheap-ass Walmart game cams to let em know when their coming.

What does that really mean? Does that mean that your gun is worth more than your life? Does that mean your going to stand bare chested, brandishing a firearm on your porch when they come for them, only to be mowed down in a hail of state-sanctioned lead? It makes you feel good to say it, but it doesn't accomplish anything. Ideally, it will never come to that. Information, education and dialog (when, that is, you can find a rational person to debate) is where we need to focus.

Honestly, I don't intend to die for my guns. George C Scott (or was it George S. Patton?) said it best: "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." In the unfortunate event that we all fail our civic duty to preserve the second amendment within the constraints of law, I intend to join with like minded people and reinstate it from the bushes, tree lines, and other reasonably extracatable positions. And if you positively, absolutely have to be loud and confrontational about it, do it when you're surrounded by a couple thousand similarilly armed friends.*Waving a gun in front of your house whilst quoting a bumper sticker doesn't accomplish anything. It just makes you dead.*


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Uhhh rah! Preach on Brother.


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## Chipper (Dec 22, 2012)

Molon labe:tango_face_wink:


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

The loud talk comes mainly from those who have never fired a shot in anger, and been shot at.
Watch out for the quiet ones.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Molon labe Not about my life for a gun. It is about standing for the constitution for our rights all of them. My life has been put on line many times for this country. It may be again. Answer me this what would you take a stand for ? My impression is not much unless it is easy.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

All this inspirational speech has reminded me of the guy who gave me the prepper bug from his famous paperback book in the 70s on how to survive the coming hard times. Smart old Mormon Prepper named Howard Ruff. He say..."dont never fight with the government cause they got much bigger and better guns than what we have." It really made an imparct on a young skull full of mush...when I realized..dang hes right. lol.


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

> What does that really mean? Does that mean that your gun is worth more than your life? Does that mean your going to stand bare chested, brandishing a firearm on your porch when they come for them, only to be mowed down in a hail of state-sanctioned lead? It makes you feel good to say it, but it doesn't accomplish anything. Ideally, it will never come to that. Information, education and dialog (when, that is, you can find a rational person to debate) is where we need to focus.


That is what it meant for the colonists, and your thinking is shallow, so if you don't intend to die for your guns, OK. What do you intend to do, turn them in when the cops show up?

Information and dialogue are only worth so much, and actions speak louder than words. And if you want dialogue with them, go ahead; but it will end right after they get your guns.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

If the cops want my guns..I would give em up..then go buy more at the carwash over in the ghetto. They have anything a person might want. Just sit on the tailgate and have a coke..and the salesmen show up trying to be helpful. They also sell drugs and viagra etc.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

bigwheel said:


> If the cops want my guns..I would give em up..then go buy more at the carwash over in the ghetto. They have anything a person might want. Just sit on the tailgate and have a coke..and the salesmen show up trying to be helpful. They also sell drugs and viagra etc.


And no background check either.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Its not dying for my guns that would make me fight back, hard and smart...rather, its not being able to live freely after surrendering to a tyrannical government knowing their boot will be on my neck for the rest of my life. 

Someone said it better than I, 

LIVE FREE OR DIE.


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## Jem (Mar 7, 2019)

MisterMills357 said:


> That is what it meant for the colonists, and your thinking is shallow, so if you don't intend to die for your guns, OK. What do you intend to do, turn them in when the cops show up?


See, "shallow" is exactly what I was getting at when considering the "...from my cold dead fingers" guy.... THAT'S shallow thinking. 'Cause he's dead and no good to anyone except maybe as a martyr or a flash point like Lexington and Concord. One or two martyrs can be useful. 500,000 martyrs just means we fought stupidly and shallowly and probably lost.

And you're making a huge assumption to suggest that I just hand my guns over to the police.



MisterMills357 said:


> Information and dialogue are only worth so much, and actions speak louder than words. And if you want dialogue with them, go ahead; but it will end right after they get your guns.


Ok, I will grant you that dialogue is less than sexy (information is critical, though). And actions DO speak louder than words. So what "actions" do you propose? Do you mean actions that fall within the framework of the law (because we are a nation of laws, including the constitution)? Or are you going right for insurrection?

The true intent of The Second amendment to the Constitution was dealt a fatal blow with the National Firarms Protection Act of 1934. The guns that most of us have don't even come close to the firepower necessary to unseat a tyrannical government. And shallow epitaphs like "...cold dead fingers" don't do the cause any favors. They just play into the hands of those who would subjugate us.

The colonists were in a WAY better position to match force with the British than modern Americans citizens are. Though the colonists lacked depth and numbers, their hardware was at LEAST on par with the British, and often superior (minus the navy. Britain's Navy was way better). And most importantly, the colonists understood the folly of frontal assault. The colonists did not stand on their collective porches and get mowed down by volley fire. They crawled through the bushes, hitting and *RUNNING*

If, at some point, someone DOES pry my gun from my cold dead fingers, I will not have spent my life cheaply or frivolously. And I dang sure am not going to base my strategy and tactics on a bumper sticker.


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## Sasquatch (Dec 12, 2014)

The cold dead hands saying is simply a mantra. One said not to brag but instead to put people that want to take our guns on notice. You're not saying you're willing to die for your guns. You are warning the American traitors that if they go that route you will kill them. A lot of them. And there will be no negotiating or peace treaty. If they cross that line you and a bunch of other like minded people will hunt them down and eradicate them. And the only thing that will stop you is if they kill you first.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Deebo (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know, but I been told...
If you think I'm joking,,,well, then ha ha.
I lost my gun rights once, I will NOT loose them again.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

There is a joke in "Cold dead fingers." :tango_face_wink: I have my "guidelines" about confrontation. This includes me being in my truck to being at home. Also includes coming home to see my home being raided.


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## Denton (Sep 18, 2012)

Sasquatch said:


> The cold dead hands saying is simply a mantra. One said not to brag but instead to put people that want to take our guns on notice. You're not saying you're willing to die for your guns. You are warning the American traitors that if they go that route you will kill them. A lot of them. And there will be no negotiating or peace treaty. If they cross that line you and a bunch of other like minded people will hunt them down and eradicate them. And the only thing that will stop you is if they kill you first.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Exactly. Rather than get into deep and involved thoughts, it's easier to speak the language of bumper stickers. 
It doesn't mean they won't do the right thing at the right time.


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

I keep hearing some opening dialouge from a Mookie Spalain novel around here. I always liked the one.."the Sun hit me in the eyes through the venetian blinds like a load of pea soup goes through a two year old." That is deep stuff right there.


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## KUSA (Apr 21, 2016)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, in a few years, all of us will have cold dead fingers. That’s right folks, all of us are just moments away from death. Nothing you do or don’t do will change that. It’s ok though because our descendants will walk the earth in our place. 

Right now, we have freedom and our rights are still protected by a piece of 200 year old parchment. Are we simply lucky that it is so? Not at all, we have freedom and liberty because our ancestors sacrificed a portion of their life for us.

I have the utmost respect and gratitude for those that sacrificed for me. The ones that didn’t, I spit on their grave.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

In case there are some who hadn't considered it, with a rifle as "quaint" as a 30-30 Winchester, you can always get a real assault rifle after the balloon goes up.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

Slippy said:


> Its not dying for my guns that would make me fight back, hard and smart...rather, its not being able to live freely after surrendering to a tyrannical government knowing their boot will be on my neck for the rest of my life.
> 
> Someone said it better than I,
> 
> LIVE FREE OR DIE.


 Nice to see how many around here get it.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

Smitty901 said:


> Nice to see how many around here get it.


I really don't know how true it was, . . . but one time I read an article that said it was only a small percentage of the colonists who truly backed the revolution, . . . and an even smaller percentage who took up arms and fought.

I have a lot to live for, . . . even at 74, . . . bucket list gets bigger all the time, . . . but if I live, . . . I want to live free, . . . and I would much rather be a dead patriot than a live serf. As a young man fresh back from 'Nam, . . . I got my belly full of institutional discrimination and public shame. There were times I wanted to look on my arm and see if the nazis had tattooed the left arm.

Our country finally got out of that, . . . and I have no desire to return, . . . and losing the 2nd is a promise of return in spades, . . . ain't going there.

And as back then, . . . I don't think it will take a huge percentage of the population to get the point across.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Piratesailor (Nov 9, 2012)

Always think smart. Yeah.. I agree and let the other poor bastard die for his country...(Patton).

Reading through this I had a couple of thoughts. This topic came up with my brother. His take was yes, if they came he’d give them his guns. His thinking was he could always get another gun or rifle but not another life and better to live and fight on via various means. Ok.. I tend to agree with him. 

The second thought was about going up against the government and how the colonist went against the English and were are “par”. Yes, the government has vast firepower superiority. What they don’t have is raw numbers. On top of that it would be guaranteed that a large percent of that government firepower would either stand down or participate on the citizens side negating any advantage. And we know, from Russia and ww2 that numbers can beat most anything (and I’m not saying we’d march into the fire either.. just an example).

Hope this will never come to pass thought. 

What will happen though is the frog in the boiling pot. Guaranteed.


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## Smitty901 (Nov 16, 2012)

dwight55 said:


> I really don't know how true it was, . . . but one time I read an article that said it was only a small percentage of the colonists who truly backed the revolution, . . . and an even smaller percentage who took up arms and fought.
> 
> I have a lot to live for, . . . even at 74, . . . bucket list gets bigger all the time, . . . but if I live, . . . I want to live free, . . . and I would much rather be a dead patriot than a live serf. As a young man fresh back from 'Nam, . . . I got my belly full of institutional discrimination and public shame. There were times I wanted to look on my arm and see if the nazis had tattooed the left arm.
> 
> ...


 Lot of people at that time were pretty much minding their own business day to day. For most people just getting by meant a lot of work most days. I can see why they may not have been out on everything.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

Piratesailor said:


> Always think smart. Yeah.. I agree and let the other poor bastard die for his country...(Patton).
> 
> Reading through this I had a couple of thoughts. This topic came up with my brother. His take was yes, if they came he'd give them his guns. His thinking was he could always get another gun or rifle but not another life and better to live and fight on via various means. Ok.. I tend to agree with him.
> 
> ...


Your Brother and you assume that they would take your guns and somehow let you stay a free man? Would not happen. "Thank you sir for your illegal guns, have a nice day"....:vs_laugh: They come to your house, you have two choices. Give up and get arrested or refuse. Most law enforcement and military would refuse to enforce unlawful orders by the way.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

We were loosing the Revolution badly until the French arrived to help.
And even then things often looked very bleak.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

RedLion said:


> Your Brother and you assume that they would take your guns and somehow let you stay a free man? Would not happen. "Thank you sir for your illegal guns, have a nice day"....:vs_laugh: They come to your house, you have two choices. Give up and get arrested or refuse. *Most law enforcement and military would refuse to enforce unlawful orders by the way.*


I like the idea you stated, . . . but the history of it is not that way.

So far there have been hundreds of red flag episodes, . . . not one LEO stood down, . . . and in Katrina, . . . the national guard and the LEO's went around picking up the firearms, . . . the constitution be damned in the process.

Sorry, . . . RedLion, . . . but my money is on the idea that they will vote with their paychecks, . . . knowing that LEO's get fired, . . . and the military gets court martialed, . . . neither of which the vast majority of them folks is up for.

Gotta remember . . . they have kids, mortgages, and wives at home telling them what they need to do, . . . only a small % will side with the new 3%.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> I like the idea you stated, . . . but the history of it is not that way.
> 
> So far there have been hundreds of red flag episodes, . . . not one LEO stood down, . . . and in Katrina, . . . the national guard and the LEO's went around picking up the firearms, . . . the constitution be damned in the process.
> 
> ...


We are way early in the process my friend. A number of Sheriffs refuse to enforce red flag laws. Also, how about NY and Maryland for instance? Millions of non-compliant owners of guns and "large capacity mags." I have never heard of a crack down? You are simply wrong outside of CA and some rare cases.
Shit, even Canada spent a billion on their registration scheme and got a whole 12% compliance. Had to scrap the long gun registration.


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## dwight55 (Nov 9, 2012)

RedLion said:


> We are way early in the process my friend. A number of Sheriffs refuse to enforce red flag laws. Also, how about NY and Maryland for instance? Millions of non-compliant owners of guns and "large capacity mags." I have never heard of a crack down? You are simply wrong outside of CA and some rare cases.
> Shit, even Canada spent a billion on their registration scheme and got a whole 12% compliance. Had to scrap the long gun registration.


I truly hope you are right, . . . unfortunately, . . . we will only see for sure when it REALLY begins to unfold.

May God bless,
Dwight


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

If you were under the impression that this was about protecting guns, you have been sorely misinformed or mistaken.
The gun is just the tool.
The tool is for a job.
The job is protection.

What needs protecting?

Answer that, and you'll know what I'm willing to die for.
The gun is just the tool.


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## RedLion (Sep 23, 2015)

dwight55 said:


> I truly hope you are right, . . . unfortunately, . . . we will only see for sure when it REALLY begins to unfold.
> 
> May God bless,
> Dwight


You are correct of course.


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## Chiefster23 (Feb 5, 2016)

Here is the insidious plan the left has in store for us. They need two things to happen. First they need certain weapons and/or magazines outlawed. Many folks are OK with magazine bans, but this is flawed thinking. Second, they need red flag laws which many people are fine with. Again, flawed thinking. As stated in this thread, most people will still keeps their guns and magazines in spite of any new laws.

Here’s the rub. You keep your illegal contraband. Then the cops, government, your neighbor, somebody, anybody, makes an anonymous red flag complaint against you and suddenly you get a 2am raid that finds this illegal contraband in your home. Then you are truely screwed. You get arrested, jailed, bankrupted, and probably lose your home. And the beauty of this scheme is that there is “no warrant” required. Since the progressives have decided that any opposition needs to be totally destroyed, don’t think for a second that this anonymous claim thing wouldn’t be abused.


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> Here is the insidious plan the left has in store for us. They need two things to happen. First they need certain weapons and/or magazines outlawed. Many folks are OK with magazine bans, but this is flawed thinking. Second, they need red flag laws which many people are fine with. Again, flawed thinking. As stated in this thread, most people will still keeps their guns and magazines in spite of any new laws.
> 
> Here's the rub. You keep your illegal contraband. Then the cops, government, your neighbor, somebody, anybody, makes an anonymous red flag complaint against you and suddenly you get a 2am raid that finds this illegal contraband in your home. Then you are truely screwed. You get arrested, jailed, bankrupted, and probably lose your home. And the beauty of this scheme is that there is "no warrant" required. Since the progressives have decided that any opposition needs to be totally destroyed, don't think for a second that this anonymous claim thing wouldn't be abused.


Extremely flawed and shortsighted. "Red Flag Laws" are the death knell of this Republic. It is a fools errand to give power to a government that would control others while thinking it won't eventually be used on them. Hitler was correct, people are stupid and have short memories.


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

CBS News is reporting on their website today that the White House has indicated that the following will not even be considered: universal background checks, magazine bans, assault weapons bans.
Democrats are pissed Trump will not even consider their House Bill.
I don't have time to post a link other than their page www.cbsnews.com


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## Prepared One (Nov 5, 2014)

Don’t fold Orange man, Don’t fold!


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## Kauboy (May 12, 2014)

rice paddy daddy said:


> CBS News is reporting on their website today that the White House has indicated that the following will not even be considered: universal background checks, magazine bans, assault weapons bans.
> Democrats are pissed Trump will not even consider their House Bill.
> I don't have time to post a link other than their page www.cbsnews.com


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald...ions-are-going-very-slowly-senate-2019-09-19/


> Several proposals that House Democrats want to see in legislation, including universal background checks, are off the table for the White House, the source also said.
> ...
> ...
> ...
> "Part of the problem that we have is because of Beto O'Rourke's statement about taking away guns," Mr. Trump said. "A lot of Republicans and some Democrats now are afraid to do anything, to go down that slippery slope. A lot of people think this is just a way of taking away guns and that's not good, because we're not going to allow that."


Thanks RPD!


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Chiefster23 said:


> Here is the insidious plan the left has in store for us. They need two things to happen. First they need certain weapons and/or magazines outlawed. Many folks are OK with magazine bans, but this is flawed thinking. Second, they need red flag laws which many people are fine with. Again, flawed thinking. As stated in this thread, most people will still keeps their guns and magazines in spite of any new laws.
> 
> Here's the rub. You keep your illegal contraband. Then the cops, government, your neighbor, somebody, anybody, makes an anonymous red flag complaint against you and suddenly you get a 2am raid that finds this illegal contraband in your home. Then you are truely screwed. You get arrested, jailed, bankrupted, and probably lose your home. And the beauty of this scheme is that there is "no warrant" required. Since the progressives have decided that any opposition needs to be totally destroyed, don't think for a second that this anonymous claim thing wouldn't be abused.


Great points on that. I used to have a friend of a friend who was trying to grow a bit of medicinal herb under lights at home..then he decided to try his hand at the a moonshining hobby. Which made the guy who built and sold the essential extractors get forced to turn his name over to the Feds as having bought an ethanol maker. Which led to nasty official letters and an effort to sell ethanol permits. The poor guy knocked both hobbies in the head and let the finished herb and hooch go for pennies on the dollar. Sold the extractor for a gypsy for cash just to get rid of the evidence if any G'men with sniffing dogs showed up to do a knock and talk. Now he just buys his meds like everybody else.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

You guys might find this hard to believe, but not all of my friends are in the "altar boy segment" of society. Having said that, I don't know a single jack one of them who have run afield of the law. Now, why is that?

My guess is that they are good at keeping silent. If we bought a gun from a neighbor, we kept it a secret. Years before switchblades were made legal in Wisconsin, we all owned them--in my case, for more than 20 years. I had a 5.0 1989 Mustang, but never had a ticket.

Oh, and I once kissed a girl I had no intention of marrying. If you keep silent it's easier to appear innocent when cross-examined by the District Attorney...


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## MisterMills357 (Apr 15, 2015)

rice paddy daddy said:


> CBS News is reporting on their website today that the White House has indicated that the following will not even be considered: universal background checks, magazine bans, assault weapons bans.
> Democrats are pissed Trump will not even consider their House Bill.
> I don't have time to post a link other than their page www.cbsnews.com


He plays them like fiddle and they always fall for it, they are incapable of learning from past experience.


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

In a very real sense, I believe the info on the 4473 forms I used "back in the day" have probably been shredded or lost. I do know that one gun salesman admitted openly that he shredded the forms the moment they were considered out of date.

When this topic comes up in gunshops the usual complaint is the FFL. I politely disagree. I think it's the federal paper-pushers. For example, you can still trace the crimes of Nazi Germany simply because they were so good at documentation.

I would guess that I have purchased over 200 handguns over +40 years. At no time did I ever have more than ten guns. I was an active gun trader. I believe one 1911 was simply shot to pieces--which I admitted to the guy who bought it simply because it was the model he wanted.

I am not unique. But imagine the nightmare that will come if the government wants to audit every boomer who ever owned a gun. For one, many of us suffer from dementia.

Case in point, I once opened a drawer and a found a revolver I thought I had lost and/or sold...


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## bigwheel (Sep 22, 2014)

Sounds plausible to we uns. To borrow a bit of East Texas lingo. In hot weather they also tell each other.."Its hotter than two rats fornicating in a wool sock huh?" The other guy says..yep..and continues to eat his grits and Pittsburgh Hotlinks. They talk and eat funny down there.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

The Tourist said:


> In a very real sense, I believe the info on the 4473 forms I used "back in the day" have probably been shredded or lost. I do know that one gun salesman admitted openly that he shredded the forms the moment they were considered out of date.
> Case in point, I once opened a drawer and a found a revolver I thought I had lost and/or sold...


ALL 4473 forms must be turned into ATF archival records center Martinsburg WV upon sale, closing or transfer of an FFL licensed dealership.
The forms are never out of date, they are used for forward tracing of a particular firearm, if possible.
No dealer is allowed to destroy them, unless there is an accidental fire.:devil:


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## rice paddy daddy (Jul 17, 2012)

SOCOM42 said:


> ALL 4473 forms must be turned into ATF archival records center Martinsburg WV upon sale, closing or transfer of an FFL licensed dealership.
> The forms are never out of date, they are used for forward tracing of a particular firearm, if possible.
> No dealer is allowed to destroy them, unless there is an accidental fire.:devil:


Correct.
Also, besides the 4473's, each FFL dealer must keep what is called a "bound book", named that because the pages can not be removed other than by ripping them out.
The bound book is a ledger that contains information on EACH gun that comes into his/her inventory: type, caliber, serial number, date of acquisition.
When a particular gun is sold, there is a spot on its line to put the date sold, and to whom.
This book is available for review at any time by the BATFE, and when the dealer goes out of business, the bound book is turned over to the government.


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## SOCOM42 (Nov 9, 2012)

rice paddy daddy said:


> Correct.
> Also, besides the 4473's, each FFL dealer must keep what is called a "bound book", named that because the pages can not be removed other than by ripping them out.
> The bound book is a ledger that contains information on EACH gun that comes into his/her inventory: type, caliber, serial number, date of acquisition.
> When a particular gun is sold, there is a spot on its line to put the date sold, and to whom.
> This book is available for review at any time by the BATFE, and when the dealer goes out of business, the bound book is turned over to the government.


YUP, I didn't bother entering that because the posting was in reference to the 4473 form. 
I have had an FFL for 55 years. 
Mostly gunsmithing work some sales, a lot of booth during the slick willie years.
Stopped selling almost 30 years ago, just gun work now, mostly US military types.
All that data is then posted in their "track us" computer.
They were all over my ass on a sale of an SKS that was used a providence bank robbery.
Threatened to castrate me if i did not come up with the buyers name who was not from RI.
I pulled it up from my newly installed computer program and gave it to them.
That was a forward trace they were doing.
They have been here a few times to look at the machineguns I have.


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## Slippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Eliminate the BATF


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## The Tourist (Jun 9, 2016)

Slippy said:


> Eliminate the BATF


Well, Slip, remember the old joke. A few shooters were yutzing one afternoon at a gunshop when someone mentioned the BATF.

Hearing that, another patron stated, "_BATF? Why, I use all their fine products.._."


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